< 1264982434 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to revamp education with computers as an integral part.. < 1264982463 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I think it would be interesting, if you eliminate all computation by giving it to the machine -- to see what is left < 1264982488 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our "applied mathematics" dep gives courses like that, theorems aren't proven, or at least you don't have to understand the proofs < 1264982507 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is sort of sad because stuff like probability theory is only found there < 1264982521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't know what 'understand' means anymore, either :( < 1264982545 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all intents and purposes, understand = memorize < 1264982567 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least for this intent and purpose < 1264982597 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to write a sci-fi about it :P < 1264982607 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err about what? < 1264982613 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should really continue reading... < 1264982615 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers < 1264982631 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this doesn't even seem to work :/ < 1264982666 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's this part about singular cubes in the end i recall was pretty wacky, not sure i want to be reading it at 5 am < 1264982682 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :singular cubes = cube < 1264982689 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty easy stuff if you ask me < 1264982697 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it *did* work! < 1264982709 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually the image of a cube < 1264982729 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(C) where f is a continuous function < 1264982743 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not exactly the wacky part < 1264982782 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1264982788 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, idiot here < 1264982791 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1264982824 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot math terms usually also mean something in english < 1264982883 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I the only one who fantasizes about being ENCOURAGED to use a calculator to factor quadratics instead of doing pages and pages of it by hand? < 1264982913 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why should it not be completely natural, when you learn a new algorithmic method of solving problems to program it in a re-useable way? < 1264982927 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use the quadratic formula; takes roughly as long < 1264982969 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care about the actual quadraitic, tat's just one example < 1264982986 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember being in a class in middle school or so when the were trying to teach people to factor quadratics < 1264983016 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they taught some kind of odd, non-deterministic method involving drawing shapes on paper < 1264983031 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our exams rarely contain any computations that take more than half a minute even without a calculator... except for integrals < 1264983032 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds cool < 1264983037 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you remember it? < 1264983040 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't like me use the quadratic formula ^_^ < 1264983083 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet, I even got the bijective de/encoding right, now all that's lacking is a weird language to plug in the middle of this < 1264983130 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could draw the shape of the curve and look at the picture to see where zeroes are < 1264983143 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose this was something cleverer < 1264983149 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner what are you talking about? < 1264983152 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I missed earlier < 1264983179 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what the FUCK are you talking about < 1264983360 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a program that reads stdin as a bijective base-256 number < 1264983371 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bijective? < 1264983372 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then converts the number to base-pi, and back again < 1264983420 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't make sense to have real bases < 1264983429 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah! sure it does < 1264983433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1264983466 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I thought input was base pi, and output was base e? < 1264983474 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that < 1264983482 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yeah, I just built it with output as base-pi to test that it's really working < 1264983503 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know yet how to convert directly from base-pi to base-e < 1264983528 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the burger is missing but I have the buns, so to speak < 1264983584 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do you have a real base? < 1264983630 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-integer_representation < 1264983655 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just pi^k instead of 10^k < 1264983677 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: im fax < 1264983704 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that there has a greedy algorithm to generate the representation of any number in any base > 1 < 1264983712 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it works if your digits are reals too < 1264983722 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The numbers di are non-negative integers less than β." < 1264983731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is really the only thing i wasn't sure about < 1264983743 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, so base-pi has 0,1,2,3 < 1264983759 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: lol, yeah, that would be a pretty compact representation at least < 1264983775 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like e = (e/pi)*pi < 1264983785 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e in base pi < 1264983889 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice to know that works, for some reason i've never bumped into that < 1264983993 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1264984057 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of messy since it doesn't add up to zero, but it seems that you don't need to bother with decimals to get the required precision < 1264984958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is... Incredibly slow. < 1264984965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./a.out `cat rot13.lazy` < ~/lazyk/lazier.scm 7.26s user 0.03s system 99% cpu 7.340 total < 1264984990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For comparison, the shipped interpreter: < 1264984990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./a.out eg/rot13.lazy < lazier.scm 0.70s user 0.02s system 80% cpu 0.891 total < 1264985179 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I believe olsner is looking for slowness? < 1264985485 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.maa.org/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf < 1264985495 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :readit < 1264985562 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: "add up to zero"? do you mean the representation of a natural number in base pi is infinite? < 1264985692 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: I suspect it might be, but I think you need a lot less than infinite to actually make it unambiguous after rounding < 1264985794 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: sounds like the current state of mathematics < 1264985808 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :teaching of it, that is < 1264985811 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ...that's the point < 1264985825 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics in particular? < 1264985832 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't read all of it yet < 1264985925 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i figured it might be about pretty much anything < 1264985944 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah maybe it could be just about math < 1264986020 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i got on page two < 1264986021 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1264986515 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is LogMeIn safe? < 1264987568 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: reading this, what I can think is... "ok but if mathematics were teached in a creative way, how would the teachers grade 150 different exams fairly" < 1264987569 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1264987599 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use a different method for evaluating performance, perhaps? < 1264987612 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if exams are interfering with learning, there's obviously a problem < 1264987719 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, this is kindof saying "they're not teaching creativity" and what I'm thinking is, "well, nobody teaches creativity" < 1264987721 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give 'em a problem and give points for progress < 1264987937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is amazed at what difference a few "foo = NULL;"s can do for memory usage. < 1264988024 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor garbage collection? < 1264988066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Garbage collectors can't collect things you still have references to. < 1264988071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you're not using them again. < 1264988097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, I was holding on to references before dethunking something. < 1264988108 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about something like this: I'm writing a sound generator. I need a function that will generate a spectrum that is almost periodic, but where the phase and amplitude of harmonics vary with time < 1264988110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a dethunk can take, well, any amount of time. < 1264988138 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1264988165 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there are any garbage collectors that actually can infer that information < 1264988182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML's apparently can. < 1264988189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a side effect of its type system. < 1264988249 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway a problem with making any subject better or more interesting to students is most people don't give a shit about anything. no matter how interesting it is, people don't want to hear it. < 1264988298 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1264988347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The biggest gain I got was making the dethunk function actually remove its closure... That's such a ridiculous source of memory leaks. < 1264988569 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it seems I have a lot to learn about precision < 1264988601 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worked fine for certain sizes of inputs that happened to make the program choose good numbers of bits to work with < 1264988617 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but failed to properly pi-encode "hello world" < 1264990353 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1264990356 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :working on a bignum system? < 1264990384 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you compute, exactly, the representation of a pi-encoded number? < 1264990448 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Inaccurately. < 1264990550 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: take the biggest power of pi that fits under it, and you get the first digit, then induction < 1264990572 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well biggest power + biggest possible digit you can multiply it with < 1264990578 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1264990605 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't know how to do that exactly < 1264990612 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then figure out at which digit to stop? < 1264990622 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's enough to use as digits the natural numbers under the number being used as base. < 1264990640 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any exponentiation/subtraction you are doing involves representations of pi, not pi < 1264990668 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1264990683 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? we're still working with the actual number < 1264990749 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have 21, you'd take pi^2 first, because that's the biggest power that fits under 21, it fits under it twice, so you take 21-2*pi^2, take the representation of that real in base pi, and you'll have the rest of the digits < 1264990770 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get 2x.xxxxxxxx < 1264990776 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x's continuing forever < 1264990787 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no idea what they are) < 1264990818 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing about this involves "representations", although you'll need some to know what powers fit under what. < 1264990865 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't exactly subtract 2*pi^2 < 1264990872 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't? < 1264990878 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21-2*pi^2 is a real number < 1264990914 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can represent it as a base pi number that contains only one whole digit, that is, its representation in base pi is of the form x.xxxxx < 1264990948 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 21-2*pi^2 equal to 3, 1.78, 1.2808, 1.268238, 1.2619555, 1.26082454, etc < 1264990983 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying you can't represent 21-2*pi^2 in base 10 using a finite number of digits? < 1264990992 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using base pi sounds weird < 1264990999 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's completely true < 1264991012 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also can't represent it in a finite amount of bananas if bananas map in no way to real number. < 1264991013 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1264991045 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you end up having to use an approximation of pi for all your calculations, is what i'm saying < 1264991056 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said anything about calculations? < 1264991085 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: you could store the operations, then evaluate just the number of digits you need < 1264991096 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are talking about the existence of the representation. pi has all sorts of algebraic properties, you can probably devise an algorithm for finding exact representations for numbers. < 1264991112 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a general real number that is obviously impossible < 1264991150 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i understand that it exists, i am talking about an algorithm < 1264991159 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1264991172 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's trickier < 1264991263 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, approximate to some amount of digits. not exactly that interesting. < 1264991331 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, pi can be done with, what, some polynomial series? < 1264991471 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: an exact algorithm would be to just have the thing you are trying to represent in the form "21-2*pi^2". you start making approximations for pi to get the correct amount of pi^1's, say n, but then you'd continue with 21 - 2*pi^2 - n*pi, and use approximations to find the amount of 1's needed, etc. < 1264991635 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not actually an algorithm, but at least there's no error) < 1264991646 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i mean it might hang) < 1264991736 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: can't pi be done with pretty much anything < 1264991786 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know better than be probably < 1264991820 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything about pi < 1264991847 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even know why it isn't algebraic < 1264991894 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear it's like totally nontrivial < 1264991920 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...lol my gf will wake up soon, i should really start reading soon :P < 1264991959 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(only 4:38, and i'm already reading about singular cubes, yay) < 1264995550 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1264997049 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1264998000 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1264998090 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265001887 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@g231187.upc-g.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265002262 0 :whtspc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265003980 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265004515 0 :Ripley!~biblicalL@222-154-35-34.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1265005545 0 :Ripley!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265005591 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265006849 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey < 1265006873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ho < 1265006879 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get a lot of Cannot send to channel for some reason on the other channels for some reason < 1265006882 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What gives! < 1265006944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't seem to be registered. is it possible they only allow registered nicks to speak? < 1265006965 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1265007018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just changed ircd program, in case you haven't noticed, so some setup has changed < 1265007044 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird < 1265007063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+R turned into some other quieting option, although i didn't have the impression it should change what happened in practice... < 1265007108 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but the channel I just tried talking doesn't have +R on < 1265007112 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or so it seems < 1265007118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+R doesn't exist any longer < 1265007125 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can talk here just fine < 1265007128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's +q something < 1265007149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we've never silenced people here that i can remember... < 1265007152 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just +cnt on ##physics < 1265007179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure +q shows up by default, i think it's like a ban list < 1265007221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:52 0 - ##physics: ban $~a [by < 1265007222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JabberWalkie!~superdude@CPE0013d44814fd-CM001bd70964c4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com, 121722 secs ago] < 1265007229 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that might be the one < 1265007242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(found with /mode #physics +q) < 1265007249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*##physics < 1265007261 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let's try now < 1265007446 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works, thx < 1265007470 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265007809 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265008120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1265009984 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265010504 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265010647 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265010747 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265011199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265011200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265012118 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265012118 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@wikipedia/PuzzletChung JOIN :#esoteric < 1265012535 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, I'm thinking: screw this precision game, let's just choose an "official" number of bits for pi and store everything exactly as rationals when working < 1265012606 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would be better to just figure out how to make this reliable, that'd teach me something too < 1265015591 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265015651 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265015666 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-193-181.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265015778 0 :fizzie!~fis@2001:1bc8:102:587b:230:18ff:fea9:6f01 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265015822 0 :mtve!~mtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265016464 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265017199 0 :MigoMipo!~3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-qppnixexiosxniok JOIN :#esoteric < 1265018161 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265018594 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1265019799 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265019816 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265021633 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265021785 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265021903 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265022053 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265023232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265025317 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265028397 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265028446 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265028705 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265028896 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265029280 0 :MigoMipo!~3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-schynkpjqpcnlpjs JOIN :#esoteric < 1265030373 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265030373 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265030373 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265030876 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265032293 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265032395 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265032408 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265034690 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1265036073 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265036184 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@g231187.upc-g.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265036265 0 :whtspc!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265036629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what should 0j@ do? should it remain on j forever or should it reach the @ at some point? < 1265036730 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If 1j is like # then 0j is like z. < 1265036796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm does mycology test 0j? < 1265036803 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1265037006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so 0jv should take the down path then < 1265037021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well strange, it looks like the code in cfunge does the wrong thing, but it does in fact do the right thing < 1265037126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait... now I see how it works < 1265038039 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265038083 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265038398 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AnMaster < 1265039230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1265039489 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265039498 0 :whtspc_!~whtspc@g231187.upc-g.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265039755 0 :whtspc_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265040718 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265040805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265041629 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265041806 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265041898 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265042010 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265042127 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265042622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Scheduled downtime approaching < 1265042640 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265042760 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265042789 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265043533 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. This lib needs to call closure as callback, but the function to register callback doesn't take context. :-/ ... Well, I think this needs trampolines (yay, runtime code generation). :-) < 1265043964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you don't care about it being even vaguely reentrant, you could just use a global. :P < 1265044412 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, that isn't an option there. < 1265044636 0 :uoryfon!~uoryfon@mobile-166-137-136-197.mycingular.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265044851 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265045258 0 :uoryfon_!~uoryfon@166.205.11.236 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265045478 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265045487 0 :uoryfon_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uoryfon < 1265045563 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265046032 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265046465 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265046677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265046874 0 :uoryfon_!~uoryfon@166.205.8.237 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265047058 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly wants to start a punk band called "sudo rm -rf /" < 1265047062 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265047063 0 :uoryfon_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uoryfon < 1265047131 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265047178 0 :uoryfon_!~uoryfon@166.205.8.75 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265047359 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265047359 0 :uoryfon_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uoryfon < 1265047488 0 :uoryfon_!~uoryfon@166.205.10.226 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265047689 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265047692 0 :uoryfon_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uoryfon < 1265047788 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi < 1265048043 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :javawizard2539 < 1265048080 0 :javawizard2539!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1265048800 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265048946 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265048951 0 :lifthrasiir!0VlqKUid@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265050432 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265050756 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1265050758 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265050759 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265051582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think of a simple loop based language that you can write O(n^k) programs (for any fixed k) < 1265051610 0 :whtspc_!~whtspc@g231187.upc-g.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265051986 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, if one can only do fixed-count iteration, then one can only write algorithms that are in P. < 1265052016 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every algorithm in P? < 1265052084 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that's only if one can only iterate over collections. Number-based iteration allows algorithms not in P. < 1265052100 0 :uoryfon!~uoryfon@166.205.9.62 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265052104 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oop < 1265052230 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, if one has number-based fixed iteration, one could do at least up to EXPTIME-complete. < 1265052343 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was NEXPTIME < 1265052378 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least up to... < 1265052411 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So might be some even bigger class... < 1265052437 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't remember where I heard that, and I don't know if I'm remembering it correctly. < 1265052581 0 :whtspc__!~whtspc@g231187.upc-g.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265052585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At any rate, it contains every algorithm described as "feasible", which means... for "practical work" you don't need a Turing-complete computer. You only need TC if you want to write an interpreter :) < 1265052670 0 :whtspc__!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265052731 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/computer/language/ to be a bit more precise. < 1265053089 0 :Slereah_!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-20-227.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265053130 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265053205 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265053622 0 :whtspc_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265054128 0 :uoryfon_!~uoryfon@mobile-166-137-139-057.mycingular.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265054260 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265054263 0 :uoryfon_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uoryfon < 1265054760 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265054784 0 :uoryfon_!~uoryfon@166.205.8.121 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265054985 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265054987 0 :uoryfon_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :uoryfon < 1265055099 0 :uoryfon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi < 1265055102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so writing an interpreter isn't feasible then? ;P < 1265055290 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265055292 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1265055320 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265055321 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1265055650 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Apparently not! I do like the distinction you can draw from it, though: "If I can prove my code halts, it's an algorithm. Otherwise, it's an interpreter." < 1265055988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you could have interpreters for sub-tc languages you know will always halt < 1265056015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc ais/scarf designed one reversible always-halting language < 1265056023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot the name of it < 1265056034 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais/scarf? Is that his name now? < 1265056055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, he used scarf sometimes recently < 1265056084 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat. Now I know who scarf is. < 1265056095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265056107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm 614 new mails < 1265056111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most are probably spam < 1265056132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no, it looks like there has been some huge debate on flightgear-devel list < 1265056202 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, if that' < 1265056244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ? < 1265056251 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's an interpreter, then so is a program that solves the travelling salesman problem, is all I meant. < 1265056259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, heh < 1265056263 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the language there is weighted undirected graphs :) < 1265056286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very, very sub-TC, you might say... < 1265056350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, back to fighting my favourite thing to ever come out of gnu: libtool. < 1265056357 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION groans. < 1265056400 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265056462 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the worlds of pain caused by shared libraries could have been avoided by just having OSes/filesystems that do hash consing. < 1265056545 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, probably not, b/c you have to rewrite all those pointers when you link statically, so the same library statically linked into two different files would look different in each. Ah well. < 1265057000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why are you using libtool? < 1265057025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do shared libraries without libtool just fine < 1265057033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also how do you mean hash consing? < 1265057111 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically, every time you allocate a new piece of data, check to see if you already have an identical piece of data, and if so, just keep a reference to the existing data instead. The name comes from the research where the technique was developed in LISP. < 1265057141 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for why libtool... because i am stupidly trying to build some tools i need (subversion, right now) from source < 1265057173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, like venti? < 1265057185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(plan9 thing iirc) < 1265057193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah part of plan9 even) < 1265057233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, they tend to just work after ./configure --prefix=$HOME/local/subversion && make && make install < 1265057298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, it's very nice when they just work :) Darn thing keeps telling me it can't find expat, though. < 1265057315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so install expat < 1265057324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo pacman -S expat < 1265057333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sudo apt-get install expat-dev or whatever < 1265057376 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Building shared libraries without libtool is a pain to do portably. < 1265057378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah seems to be libexpat1-dev on ubuntu < 1265057388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Building anything *with* libtool is a pain, so I guess it evens out. < 1265057399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, does it work on *bsd and linux easily without libtool? < 1265057423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really care about HP-UX, VMS and other obscure systems < 1265057430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh AIX too < 1265057430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It *works*, but people seem to suck at it. < 1265057441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, isn't it just gcc -shared ? < 1265057445 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(next person to build a shared library without -fPIC gets a kick to the balls) < 1265057456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes of course you use -fpic < 1265057458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Add -fPIC for fucks sake. < 1265057462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also -fpic NOT -fPIC < 1265057475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lower case version is better on some platforms iirc < 1265057507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, like DOS. < 1265057507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And DOS. < 1265057509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also DOS. < 1265057521 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sparc < 1265057565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? -fpic vs. -fPIC? < 1265057566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265057577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait... < 1265057586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes a difference only on SPARC, m68k and RS/6000 says man gcc < 1265057595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to the man page, it only makes difference on m68k, PowerPC, and SPARC. < 1265057609 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265057623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, mine lists SPARC, m68k and RS/6000 under -fpic but m68, PowerPC and SPARC under -fPIC < 1265057625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-fpic makes a smaller offset table. < 1265057628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is supposed to mean < 1265057636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's too small, it'll not compile. < 1265057641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-fPIC will always work. < 1265057644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it is faster though < 1265057649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1265057660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If your shared library is small enough. < 1265057662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and if you need such a large GOT you have too many functions < 1265057675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :divide it in more < 1265057690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a library should follow the unix philosophy too < 1265057696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(do one thing, do it well) < 1265057699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. < 1265057710 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on sparc the smaller table means single instructions can be used to load offsets into it, -fPIC generates double-instruction constant loading that can handle large offsets < 1265057712 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many build systems build shared libraries *without* using position-independent code. < 1265057730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, right < 1265057736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the x86 dynamic linker will manually relocate the library if it's not PIC. < 1265057737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that won't load < 1265057744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on x86-64 iirc < 1265057746 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will on x86. < 1265057748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And *nowhere* else. < 1265057751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not on x86-64 < 1265057760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure about that < 1265057763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. That's not x86. < 1265057771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well the difference is slight < 1265057778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also x86-64 is the norm nowdyas < 1265057781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :days* < 1265057785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for linux < 1265057791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The difference between the CPU architecture is slight. < 1265057798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ABI is radically different. < 1265057804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265057826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is the x86 abi < 1265057834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only read the amd64 abi < 1265057841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undefined. < 1265057844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's per-OS. < 1265057848 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And often per-compiler. < 1265057852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well it must be documented for linux... < 1265057854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere < 1265057860 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you're on Windows, give up now. < 1265057868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also Microsoft ignores the amd64 abi yes < 1265057882 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft defines its own, yes. < 1265057893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows on x86 has 3 or 4 different calling conventions. < 1265057923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Linux x86 ABI is defined in the LSB. < 1265057957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like a nice, easy to use, 3D modeller, based on using boolean functions between primitives. Such as "intersection of this cube and (union of that cylinder and that sphere)". Anyone know such a thing? < 1265057985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for C++-specific details; those are from the IA64 ABI documentation for all GCC-supported architectures. < 1265057987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would in other words not be based on polygons (or it could be as well) < 1265058013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, linux use different calling convetions on x86 too. regparam for example < 1265058019 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1265058028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: regparam is very, very rarely used. < 1265058038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge uses regparam attribute on x86 to speed things up (there is a measurable difference) < 1265058053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: thank you. libexpat1-dev worked. Why it worked and why plain 'expat' did not, I still have no good idea -- it's not like extra so's were installed (and that's what it was saying it couldn't find.) < 1265058066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, plain expat is a program it says < 1265058077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "expat - XML parsing C library - example application" < 1265058082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-get tells me that < 1265058087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265058088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-cache < 1265058124 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wheras on Windows, there's fastcall, stdcall, cdecl, safecall, and pascal calling conventions... < 1265058124 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but expat installs /usr/lib/libexpat.so* ... which should be enough to link to, given that it didn't complain about headers. < 1265058127 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265058143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well. maybe it needs *.la or *.a? < 1265058145 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265058160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And those are just in use by Microsoft's compiler. < 1265058170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, if you are doing subversion why not apt-get builddep subversion < 1265058173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it builddeps < 1265058174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265058177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1265058180 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, libexpat.la appears to have been in my lib dir since Jan 19 as well < 1265058196 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At any rate, it's built. best not to think any more about it, right? :) < 1265058199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, delphi (which is pascal) used fastcall internally iirc < 1265058203 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's *also* the Borland fastcall and the GNU cdecl. < 1265058209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it a modified fastcall? < 1265058212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well probably < 1265058222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gnu uses it's own cdecl on windows? < 1265058233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The difference is in struct packing. < 1265058246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : At any rate, it's built. best not to think any more about it, right? :) <-- wrong. You always try to figure out *why* something unexpected happened < 1265058251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, -_- < 1265058255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It packs its structs differently from Microsoft C. < 1265058255 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265058263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that isn't calling convention! < 1265058266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With an attribute for Microsoft packing. < 1265058271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct packing is, well, ABI yes < 1265058276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not calling convention < 1265058278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, fine, remove the GNU cdecl. < 1265058292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Borland still has its own fastcall. < 1265058306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(different registers are used) < 1265058312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway regparam with gcc isn't that rarely used. Let me grep cfunge sources for number of times it is used! < 1265058337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge is the first thing I've heard of actually *using* it. < 1265058342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: maybe my smiley should have been a ;-) < 1265058343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, does MS still use fastcall? < 1265058349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, maybe < 1265058353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265058368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, for what sort of functions < 1265058369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random parts of Win32 use it. < 1265058373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also what about thiscall? < 1265058390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a C++ implementation detail. < 1265058392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265058393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"First argument is this". < 1265058403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/C++/python/ ;P < 1265058414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except there it is explicit!) < 1265058420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1265058462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft at least went sane on x86_64... < 1265058464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how comes C++ needs it's own "different from C" ABI, while python manages fine with the C abi. < 1265058468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is one calling convention. < 1265058468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes I can see the reasons < 1265058470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1265058472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes you wonder < 1265058490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, different from linux one though on x86_64 < 1265058499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also doesn't syscalls use their own? < 1265058504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on both linux and windows < 1265058506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's at least a *single* calling convention. < 1265058516 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syscalls must -- there's no way to just "call" them. < 1265058523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, call gates? < 1265058530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague memory of reading about that < 1265058538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how it worked < 1265058540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Even that requires some specific work on them. < 1265058578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Linux call gate is linked in before the dynamic linker is started. < 1265058591 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the Linux call gate is at a specific address. < 1265058592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265058596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also no longer used < 1265058602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses SYSCALL/SYSRET iirc? < 1265058607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... No, the call gate is still used. < 1265058609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it SYSENTER/SYSEXIT? < 1265058613 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The call gate is a *recent thing*. < 1265058617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if you mean the vdso... < 1265058627 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's the call gate. < 1265058636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not the call gate in the meaning I used it < 1265058642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_gate < 1265058652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Assuming a call gate has been set up already by the operating system kernel, code simply does a CALL FAR (LCALL in AT&T syntax) with the necessary segment selector (the offset field is ignored). " < 1265058669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that bloody thing. < 1265058684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so you know about it? < 1265058732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux doesn't use that. < 1265058742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I say it did? < 1265058747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1265058757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying it doesn't at all, though. < 1265058781 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SYSENTER is quite funky. IIRC, it does not save address that called it. < 1265058790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it damned well doesn't help matters any. < 1265058799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it SYSCALL that is used then? < 1265058813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux's entry methods are an interrupt, syscall/sysret, or sysenter/sysexit. < 1265058817 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there can only be one SYSENTER in each VM space. < 1265058828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Linux VDSO uses whichever one is the fastest. < 1265058828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It should be noted that call gates are more flexible than the SYSENTER/SYSEXIT and SYSCALL/SYSRET instructions since unlike the latter two, call gates allow for changing from an arbitrary privilege level to an arbitrary (albeit higher or equal) privilege level. The fast SYS* instruction only allow control transfers from ring 3->0 and vice versa. Upon comparing call gates to interrupts, call gates are < 1265058829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : significantly faster." < 1265058835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting stuff. < 1265058872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think they would be a lot faster, especially for some access patterns (though maybe not ones that are frequently used in modern OSes) < 1265058893 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that SYSENTER is part of Linux-gate VDSO. < 1265058899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc virtualbox uses ring 2 a bit if there is no VT-d/whatever support < 1265058905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or VT-x or whatever it was < 1265058912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waiting for the next interrupt can be killer. < 1265058921 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Only if it's present. < 1265058926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, even on x86-64?' < 1265058931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/'// < 1265058946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it used syscall exclusively on x86-64 < 1265058981 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265058989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically AMD64 deprecated Intel's sysenter in the AMD64 specs < 1265058993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION opens the file < 1265059021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"6.1.2 SYSENTER and SYSEXIT (Legacy Mode Only)" < 1265059022 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if X64 has SYSCALL, its probably better than SYSENTER. < 1265059040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" L i ke S Y S C A L L a n d S Y S R E T, S Y S E N T E R a n d < 1265059040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SYSEXIT are low-latency system call and return instructions designed for use by system and < 1265059040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :application software implementing a flat-memory model. However, these instructions are illegal in < 1265059040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long mode and result in an undefined opcode exception (#UD) if software attempts to use them. < 1265059040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Software should use the SYSCALL and SYSRET instructions when running in long mode." < 1265059044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh < 1265059048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kills evince < 1265059057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell did it do there < 1265059067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that spacing < 1265059072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Syscall and Sysenter do roughly the same thing. < 1265059082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One was created by Intel, the other by AMD. < 1265059100 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And presumably SYSCALL saves RIP... < 1265059126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1265059150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't linux map the clock in process memory for gettimeofday() and such < 1265059158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is iirc done in the vdso magic < 1265059181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly. < 1265059385 0 :soupdragon!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265059623 0 :soupdragon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265061008 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265062053 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: * I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc * < 1265062561 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265062798 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265064019 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265064052 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265065493 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265066163 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265066163 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1265066432 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah, getting a newer gmp and compiling mpfr and gmp locally seems to have given around 20% < 1265066473 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimizing while the program isn't even made correct <3 < 1265066495 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: restarting the X CPU-Hoggin System < 1265066538 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1265066558 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265066572 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1265066572 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@chronon.pointtec.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265066572 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265066572 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1265066596 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265066666 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265066739 0 :Leonidas_!~Leonidas@chronon.pointtec.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265066739 0 :Leonidas_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265066739 0 :Leonidas_!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1265066756 0 :Leonidas_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Leonidas < 1265066942 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265066973 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1265067164 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265067549 0 :XRY!~XRY@95.98.69.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265067551 0 :XRY!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265067641 0 :XRY!~XRY@95.98.69.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265067646 0 :XRY!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265067698 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265067714 0 :XRY!~XRY@95.98.69.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265067719 0 :XRY!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265067803 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265067923 0 :XRY!~XRY@95.98.69.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265067928 0 :XRY!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265068035 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265068051 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265068177 0 :XRY!~XRY@95.98.69.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265068186 0 :XRY!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265068318 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265068714 0 :mquin!~mquin@freenode/staff/mquin JOIN :#esoteric < 1265068725 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265068730 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, it works! < 1265068739 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works! The OASYS->TAVSYS works! It works! It {OUCH} < 1265068891 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pbox.ca/121kt < 1265069391 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265069524 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265069555 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hay you ! No cheating! Of course I am not channel operation < 1265069559 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265069958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/HdLe Hooray, boredom. < 1265070165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(CPS in C. For no good reason.) < 1265070182 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all hail bad reasons < 1265070207 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all also hail absense of reasons < 1265070285 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, dividing by the same (large arbitrary-precision floating-point) value was slower than inverting the value and multiplying instead < 1265070313 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost 3x as fast, actually < 1265070521 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265070642 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO it's a sign of a fairly useless pastebin if it doesn't support copying out as plain text! (pbox.ca) < 1265070645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all. < 1265070649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265070813 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265070914 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a better one http://pastebin.ca/raw/1774973 < 1265070951 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it is not useless < 1265071059 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a new kind of question: Do you know how to play Quintuple Arcana? < 1265071685 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265071924 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many eyes does ettercap has? < 1265072136 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265072468 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even fortune cookies need to sleep sometime! < 1265072767 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: That is not a proper question < 1265075315 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1265075331 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265078382 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265080444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/mckche/ski.tar.gz < 1265080486 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265084294 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265084373 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265084405 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265084673 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265086072 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-159-109-61.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265086167 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265087448 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265087520 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265088884 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-97-44.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265088926 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265089266 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265089471 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265089546 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265090778 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1265091950 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265092022 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265093157 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265093332 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265093333 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265093333 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265093333 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265093401 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265093479 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265094139 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1265094190 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265094244 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265094460 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265095618 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265096285 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265097000 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265097082 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1265097599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265097600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265098916 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265099133 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265099133 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265099134 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265099552 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265099842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1265101207 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265105358 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265106211 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265106645 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265106721 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265108168 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265108800 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265109343 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265112342 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265115006 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265118193 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265118429 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265118642 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265118866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265119774 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is function-level programming similar to writing completely lambda lifted programs? < 1265121696 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265124728 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265124762 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265125761 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265126885 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265127028 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265127462 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265128418 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-10-51.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265128594 0 :sebbu3!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-10-51.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265128604 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265128624 0 :sebbu3!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265128786 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265128786 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265128786 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265128786 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265129028 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265129714 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-10-110.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265130219 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265130284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is function-level programming similar to writing completely lambda lifted programs? < 1265130304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's more similar to writing point-free programs < 1265130334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, what is lambda lifted again < 1265130420 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-97-44.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265130513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1265130718 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265130770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what i get from wikipedia's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function-level_programming article + my slight knowledge of FP, completely lambda-lifted programs are almost the opposite of that < 1265130788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they certainly have plenty of variables < 1265130853 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: ^ < 1265130925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and point-free programs are not quite the same as FP's style either, since you can definitely combine new higher-order functions with point-free programming < 1265130953 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's what I said at first (function level being similar to pointfree), but I'm still trying to figure out what the heck Backus was talking about. < 1265130990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah his strictly limited set of higher-order functions makes it very weird < 1265131093 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, he seems to make a strict distinction between functions and functionals, which isn't made in most discussion of functional programming. And I'm not sure I think it's all that useful... when functions *are* values, is the division between "function-level" and "value-level" really that strong? < 1265131114 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265131206 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other thing that FP seems to do (although this is possibly coincidental, and not part of function-level programming) is that it's not possible to embed a literal in a program -- all your values have to supplied as input. < 1265131228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265131237 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265131285 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means you can't really write a program to compute the diameter of a circle, given its radius. You would have to write "... given its radius and the current universe's value of pi" :) < 1265131332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm doesn't FP have a way of creating constant functions? < 1265131334 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, depending on the language, there are ways to defeat that, given logical invariants like x & ~x -> false < 1265131365 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I understood was, it has a way to turn a value into a constant function (but the value still has to come from input) < 1265131484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how that makes sense if functions are _not_ values < 1265131518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my impression is they are not < 1265131578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my intuition tells me that it's more like a function form "constant x" which is a function, although x is a value - wp article is not clear on this < 1265131588 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can build new ones using functionals. So you can manipulate them, like you would manipulate any other value. So it seems safe-ish to say functions "are values" in FP. Even if they're a compeltely different type of value from everything else. < 1265131639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but a function in FP cannot turn a value into a function < 1265131650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can only give values as results, i think < 1265131658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should find a more reliable source < 1265131664 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FP is STUPID!!!!!! < 1265131665 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, that's a point. < 1265131680 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy has a point also. < 1265131682 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone that wants to do functional programming without LAMBDA has lots his MARBLES < 1265131699 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's no coindicendec that LAMBDA is an anagram of MARBLES < 1265131717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must have lost some marbles to think that < 1265131725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the anagram part) < 1265131757 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LAMBSER DRACULA'S < 1265131886 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of think the whole function/functional thing in FP was to simplify/rigidify the type system. Kind of like Russel's stuff about making sets of sets different from plain old sets. < 1265132106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, in http://www.stanford.edu/class/cs242/readings/backus.pdf it shows that constant is a functional form, not a function < 1265132125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and functional forms may have object arguments as well as function arguments < 1265132127 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[17:18] *** oerjan sets the channel topic to "16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D". [17:20] *** oerjan sets the channel topic to "15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D". < 1265132134 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the sort of time dilation that makes ehird capable of that < 1265132155 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's what I suspected - so "functionals take functions to functions" on wp is wrong < 1265132170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was first thinking that he hadn't been here since a sunday, but then i checked his reddit page and there was a comment from 15 days ago < 1265132182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265132593 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is ehird? < 1265132609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1265132612 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265132698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should try email? < 1265132705 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is an extended ban from the internet, for whatever reason < 1265132757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Which means you can't really write a program to compute the diameter of a circle, given its radius. You would have to write "... given its radius and the current universe's value of pi" :) <-- why did I just imagine a continuation of the universe.... < 1265132762 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most recent email I have from ehird (which he posted to a mailing list I'm on) is jan 13 < 1265132806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's been online since then though < 1265132814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265132843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, could haskell exist without *external* state. < 1265132845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18th or so < 1265132851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, imagine there is no universe, just haskell < 1265132871 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've emailed him, anyway < 1265132875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1265132877 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1265132976 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sounds worryingly like the smalltalk view of the universe < 1265132983 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's pretty easy to set up < 1265132988 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ban the IO monad, look no more universe < 1265133031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also ST/state. < 1265133040 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's an internal thing < 1265133042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there is nowhere for the interpreter to store the state < 1265133050 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes there is, it can be stored in the moand < 1265133051 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*monad < 1265133054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without existing in an external stateness context < 1265133056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement the state monad in pure haskell < 1265133062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1265133075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what about the ST one? < 1265133079 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about ST < 1265133085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1265133094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is only implemented with magic for efficiency's sake. < 1265133100 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :State *is* pure Haskell. < 1265133118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, IO is only implemented with magic for utility's sake. < 1265133135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I don't know what ST is < 1265133136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's perfectly feasible to implement it in pure Haskell, so long as you don't mind it all doing not-much. < 1265133144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Strict state monad. < 1265133152 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ouch < 1265133154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also unless the gc could be implemented in pure haskell, this haskell's heap would grow forever, no? < 1265133166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an implementation detail. < 1265133168 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like it would be a) implementable nonmagically, and b) very inefficient if you did < 1265133182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Yes and yes. < 1265133202 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're assuming something with a relatively standard pointer architecture for gc to even make sense < 1265133219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's no *need* for garbage collection. < 1265133221 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have more than one Underload interp; one of them uses a ref-counting gc, many others don't use or need any sort of gc at all < 1265133227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well we are getting to that < 1265133234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only for most practical implementations. < 1265133235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265133373 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gc is more-or-less a side effect of using references rather than just copying the entire object whenever you need a copy < 1265133375 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to implement ST today < 1265133381 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I did not succeed < 1265133399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, the first is more efficient on standard computers, but there's no reason it has to work like that in practice < 1265133410 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in theory at least, but probably practice too < 1265133425 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, you wouldn't use gc if you were implementing underload in, say, lisp < 1265133429 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, when you have an infinite amount of tape, why bother reusing it? < 1265133430 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because having two layers of gc is pointless < 1265133454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and pointerless? < 1265133457 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think Keymaker's BF implementation of Underload does indeed not use pointers, and it would be a lot more bloated if it did < 1265133468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry, should have left that to oerjan) < 1265133478 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, didn't realise it was meant to be a pun < 1265133524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the bf tape is not infinite < 1265133528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practise < 1265133546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, just write one in C and use gcc-bf ;P < 1265133578 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm now trying to imagine the size of Underload program that would be needed to make it run faster in gcc-bf-derlo than in keymaker's interp < 1265133598 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is one, but I worry that it might be so large that it wouldn't fit into the limited-sized memory gcc-bf uses < 1265133620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265133646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, doesn't it partly depend on memory patterns < 1265133656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an endless loop that duplicates some data along the way < 1265133664 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, of course < 1265133667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but which keeps the stack at a limited max < 1265133697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wouldn't that require a gc to not run out of memory? < 1265133714 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it would either run out with or without, or not run out with or without < 1265133733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1265133754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because you need either infinitely many pointers to the data/infinitely many copies of the data < 1265133757 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or finitely many of both < 1265133779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265133823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^:^:^^^S < 1265133823 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1265133863 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^:^^^S < 1265133864 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1265133867 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^:^^^S < 1265133868 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1265133871 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^):^^^S < 1265133872 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...out of time! < 1265133875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that's strange < 1265133879 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:^)^^S < 1265133879 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...bad insn! < 1265133897 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot evaluates Underload? < 1265133898 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what is stfu?". i want a divorce!!... this is nice but the drivers aren't always < 1265133900 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes < 1265133923 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)^S < 1265133923 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1265133933 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~):*^S < 1265133933 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1265133939 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see what I did wrong < 1265133950 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:*):*:*:*:*^^S < 1265133950 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...too much stack! < 1265133953 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (x)(y)(z)(a(~)~*^~)(:*):*:*:*^^S < 1265133953 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < 1265133957 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1265134003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, the mistaken original somehow segfaulted when I pressed control-C, for no obvious reason < 1265134003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in derlo < 1265134021 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, with a stack overflow < 1265134033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thanks Valgrind!) < 1265134295 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, /this/ has happened to the Java documentation: http://java.sun.com/javase/reference/api.jsp < 1265134312 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265134349 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and likewise, http://sun.com is just a redirect < 1265134371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, see: < 1265134373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^help < 1265134373 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool < 1265134380 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I don't see anything strange about the 1st link, but the 2nd was darn surprising < 1265134381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf and ul < 1265134393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the first link, look at the title and the colours < 1265134402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Ah. < 1265134403 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you teach Java for a living like I do, you get used to looking at the API < 1265134408 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's weird seeing it with Oracle branding < 1265134417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also: < 1265134419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1265134419 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1265134443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, yes. I've been under a rock wrt the Java world lately, and I wasn't aware of this... acquisition or whatever it is. < 1265134451 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oracle bought Sun < 1265134465 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entire company, including everything that they owned < 1265134474 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hilarious seeing adverts for Oracle Solaris, for instance < 1265134478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and likewise, http://sun.com is just a redirect <-- old (several days) < 1265134484 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so... sad. < 1265134495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but still shocking < 1265134508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1265134517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what will happen to mysql < 1265134524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wondering < 1265134530 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, oracle are going to invest in it < 1265134530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I much prefer postgre < 1265134532 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: re source: cool! < 1265134547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes, I thought *you* would think that ;P < 1265134551 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the underload interp starts on line 311, if you're interested < 1265134587 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to pay a lot for a mediocre DB, Oracle is a good choice. < 1265134674 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't have that kind of money for that kind of mediocrity, MySQL is a good choice... < 1265134693 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MySQL manages to not quite be a relational database < 1265134706 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's useful for the market it targets, but I'm not sure how to define that market < 1265134739 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data integrity? Who needs *that*? < 1265134743 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfft. < 1265134755 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sometimes you don't, although I agree sometimes you do < 1265134786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, as in, sometimes you can get the same effect without transactiosn < 1265134789 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*transactions < 1265134792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I was merely trying to define that market, ... through parody < 1265134799 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265134815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you don't have that kind of money for that kind of mediocrity, MySQL is a good choice... <-- no < 1265134822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postgresql is a better choice < 1265134852 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I meant that with MySQL you get a lot of mediocrity for your buck :) < 1265134872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well, as in, sometimes you can get the same effect without transactiosn <-- what about innodb < 1265134872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer postgres, too. < 1265134909 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: innodb doesn't really have transactions < 1265134911 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it does a bit < 1265134918 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than myisam, but less than a sane database engine < 1265134952 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-222-156.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265134992 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how long it'll take Oracle to completely destroy Java and Solaris. < 1265135034 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is, they won't < 1265135049 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that Oracle bought Sun just to prevent Java falling into the hands of someone who wanted to get rid of it < 1265135064 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect that most of the companies that rely on Oracle rely on Java too, you see... < 1265135116 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. And now, they just rely on Oracle... < 1265135145 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"completely destroy" might have been a bad choice of term. < 1265135163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, "lock-in" seems more likely or reasonable < 1265135211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about iced tea < 1265135219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it is called < 1265135220 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: or OpenJDK? < 1265135238 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those should both be out of oracle's control whatever happens < 1265135271 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IcedTea and OpenJDK are both different completions of the bits of Sun's JDK that they were legally allowed to open-source (i.e. not licenced from a third party), which was most of it) < 1265135313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, by "completely destroy" I was trying to evoke what happened to Perl from 5 to 6, and (to a lesser degree) in Python from 2 to 3. < 1265135319 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.oracle.com/features/suncustomers.html < 1265135325 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: hmm, but aren't those good things? < 1265135330 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ! < 1265135344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl6 isn't really production-ready yet, but it's one of the most mindblowing wonderful languages I know, especially if you have an esolanger mindset < 1265135350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: !! < 1265135364 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are something like ten different ways of writing an anonymous function and passing arguments to it < 1265135395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what is wrong with python 3 < 1265135404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any more than python 2 that is < 1265135410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they fixed some stuff in it iirc < 1265135420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like integer division now being // < 1265135460 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would take too long for me to explain fully, I think. Until I can compose it, suffice to say, I think those languages both "jumped the shark" at those points. < 1265135469 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I suspect Java 7 will be similar. < 1265135481 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh, I can imagine the sharkjumping < 1265135485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I prefer python 3 to python 2 < 1265135488 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason perl5 is still developed < 1265135498 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think perl6 is a different language with an unfortunately similar name < 1265135499 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: function level programming is not functional programming < 1265135501 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not very different < 1265135567 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: function level programming is something completely different. it is a way of describing programs by transforming functions with functionals. you cannot write your own functions, and you have no variables. the only way you can get new functions is by applying functionals to existing functions. < 1265135585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The main problem I have with Python 3 is that continuing to call it "Python" suggests that migrating your existing Python code base to it will be ... easy! A piece of cake! You should do it! < 1265135585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: sort-of like concatenative langs? < 1265135618 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ 5to6 some_complicated_perl5_file.pl < 1265135618 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lua seems to have a better philosophy about "progress", overall, I think. Just my opinion. < 1265135625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I have done it. wasn't too hard. Migrating an application using the C API to make python an embedded scripting language was worse < 1265135629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have done that too < 1265135633 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how many LoC? < 1265135644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thanks to ifdefs made it compile against both python 2 and 3 < 1265135665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, around 1000 or so in total there. Also done a few other programs < 1265135689 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1000's almost short enough to rewrite < 1265135701 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Depending on how many 3rd party packages? < 1265135703 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yes < 1265135707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, most could be done by using some of the patches suggested by 2to3 (some patches like changing "in range(...)" to "in list(range(...))" weren't required) < 1265135722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, one third party one. why? < 1265135722 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that also applies to you (FLP is not in any way related to FP) < 1265135737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so the third party ones need to be ported first < 1265135748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes that one was tricky, it was a C json library. < 1265135758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which depended on byte rather than unicode strings < 1265135763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm just suggesting that your example is small, compared to lots of Python codebases out there. < 1265135783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true, it isn't completely painless, but not too bad I found < 1265135795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also why are you using third party libs? NIH NIH! ;P < 1265135822 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ideally code should be written to be so portable it can easily be transferred to a different /language/ < 1265135839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: So design an imperative function-level programming language :) < 1265135851 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of course, you just write it as compiled BF, that works < 1265135872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that *always* works < 1265135880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1265135892 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I just had an urge to mention PSOX again < 1265135893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well you might need psox ;P < 1265135896 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snap < 1265135902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh same second here < 1265135941 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've clearly become some sort of hivemind < 1265135957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265135994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc you had some erlang code on your website? do you still use it? < 1265135998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the language that is) < 1265136020 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Unfortunately, I haven't touched Erlang in a while. < 1265136046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how long? since before the unicode support? < 1265136067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, probably about then. I remember it being discussed, I don't remember actually using it. < 1265136073 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh no, you aren't going to launch into an issue of what RAND_MAX should be on a bignum system again, are you? < 1265136082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, not his fingerprint < 1265136087 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The continuous growing size of the OTP distribution frightens me :) < 1265136101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well efunge is written in erlang. I'm not aware of any other bignum funge < 1265136122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also I'm the author of efunge, as well as cfunge) < 1265136124 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, well. Funge, like C, was never designed with bignum implementations in mind... < 1265136148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes indeed. Currently I'm considering bignum intercal < 1265136154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be just craz < 1265136156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy* < 1265136198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway I'm also working on a fingerprint for async threads in efunge. work in progress. < 1265136199 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More than I care to put in my brain at the moment, yes. < 1265136206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some part works < 1265136225 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting... < 1265136235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, really t feels so silly when you have multiple cores and possibly multiple nodes. < 1265136239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really,* < 1265136249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is where this things comes into it < 1265136271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the multiple nodes might pose a problem since I use an ets table for funge-space. < 1265136281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple nodes scenario* < 1265136303 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, internal threads don't seem very Funge-like somehow... traditionally multiple IPs take their place ... not to discourage the development of a fingerprint to do it, of course. < 1265136316 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when you introduce nodes.... yeah. < 1265136330 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i am not sure that imperative style would be good for FLP, since there is no assignment in FLP < 1265136337 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to see how to mesh those with Befunge's model. < 1265136342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could switch to mnesia, but that would be horribly slow < 1265136343 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: btw, porting from py2 to py3 should be easy < 1265136354 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: not much harder than porting 2.6 to 2.5 for example < 1265136359 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 2.4 < 1265136401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the fingerprint provides sync g, p and compare-and-swap (as G, P and C), the normal g and p (and other write/reads) are not guaranteed to be visible right away to other threads. Each thread can contain multiple IPs in theory (but efunge atm doesn't implement t) < 1265136440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also these threads wouldn't block each other when waiting for IO, unlike IPs in befunge normally do < 1265136451 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476766& https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=542689 < 1265136452 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: It doesn't have to be "good", but if you can't get away from using functions for everything, you'll have a hard time convincing me that function-level has no relation to functional programming. < 1265136488 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: function level programming does not produce results like you expect from normal programs. < 1265136493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh and I predict that distributed funge will be all the rage instead of java or .NET in 10 years ;P < 1265136499 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the output of a function level program is a program that is not written in FLP. < 1265136555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2, is it per chance written in #!/bin/cat ? < 1265136558 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i understand it, FLP is a kind of meta-programming language which allows you to define programs which then could be executed using some other runtime. < 1265136566 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: You keep making exceptional-sounding claims about function-level programming, but at the same time, you keep asking the channel what function-level programming would be like. < 1265136615 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i am making claims about what i understand it as. but i'm interested in what other people understand it as. if someone contradicts what i say, of course they are wrong. ;-) < 1265136732 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: a sort of constructive argument for coming up with ideas and concepts :-) < 1265136822 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: Well, I will say I don't see a lot of support for the idea that it's a meta-language. I totally agree that it's not the same as (what we know today as) functional programming. My guess would be that Backus' thesis was to make a strong distinction and separation between values, functions, and functionals. (Whereas functional programming emphasizes that functions are values, and can be functionals.) < 1265136896 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is my impression too < 1265136898 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But other than that, it seems to share a lot of ideas from functional programming. Like that you create new functions by transforming existing ones. And that a program is a mapping from inputs to outputs. < 1265136913 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the idea was too completely separate the data from the program structure < 1265136939 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, yes, you had a program which calculates the area of a circle given the radius and the current value of pi < 1265136960 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's important, i think, is that he also separated the description framework < 1265136960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of one thing in freebsd kernel source < 1265136962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: that might be. If so... one of my language designs is "function-level" in that sense < 1265136968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define SECONDS_PER_MINUTE 60 < 1265136970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes really < 1265136979 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-58.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265136980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it wasn't a runtime variable < 1265136984 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. that program, which calculates the area, is not written in the same language it was defined in. < 1265137038 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/larabee/ forbids literals in the program -- all values have to be read from input. < 1265137057 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, you define a program such as: print(multiply(arg2(),multiply(arg2(),arg2())) < 1265137071 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you have the ability to copy values and perform logic, you can always hardcode logical constants by saying, e.g. X AND NOT X. < 1265137101 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265137101 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265137104 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this program definition is defined in CFLPL which is cheater's function level programming language < 1265137113 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: ok ... < 1265137131 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it gets compiled to: code which is executable in php. < 1265137151 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've heard of larabee before < 1265137174 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it was the name of the intel gpu thing < 1265137241 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, 2 r's in the spelling of the gpu thing, but yes. I wasn't aware of that < 1265137307 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasn't aware of the 2 r's < 1265137307 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265137317 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you ever used happstack cpressey? < 1265137335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But if you have the ability to copy values and perform logic, you can always hardcode logical constants by saying, e.g. X AND NOT X. <-- if it treats it like C does, as integers, then you could use that to get 0 and 1, then get the rest of the values from there < 1265137337 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: No. < 1265137356 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, or if you have arithmetic, X-X = 0, X/X = 1. < 1265137369 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or DivByZero exception :) ) < 1265137376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265137407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and then you can do (basically) 2=1+1 4=2*2 and so on < 1265137438 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fruitless, there's no point in doing that < 1265137442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it be possible to make a tc language where this wasn't possible < 1265137465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, forbid copying maybe? < 1265137483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: although I don't think that'll get you very far :) < 1265137486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would it be tc then? < 1265137494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes I suspect you could work around it < 1265137510 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If my work on Larabee isn't completely whack, I think it's not TC. < 1265137535 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can't copy, then you rely on two inputs and you can't guarantee they're equal, so you can't guarantee a constant < 1265137549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I suspect it is possible to get known constants in any tc program that can not hard code literals (but that can use input) < 1265137557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not 100% sure though < 1265137578 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Definitely an interesting line of inquiry. < 1265137582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but then isn't the program bounded by the number of arguments < 1265137586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus sub-tc < 1265137632 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think it is -- you don't need to hard-code much, to start off a computation that produces an infinite amount of output < 1265137647 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, computing pi to an indefinate # of decimal places < 1265137648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so it is allowed to copy those values once calculated? < 1265137660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not use an argument more than once? < 1265137697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it could just do it like X = arg1(), One = X / X, Zero = X - X. < 1265137698 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, that's where it gets tricky :) I think most models of computation rely on being able to copy values internally. < 1265137698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265137713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( heh I just realised that was potentially valid erlang code) < 1265137723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would need div, but otherwise) < 1265137772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just define arg1() to something suitable calling something in the init module to get the arguments) < 1265137832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well if you can't copy then internally you are probably subtc < 1265137838 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just checked, and Larabee allows you to store and fetch input, and do arithmetic. However, to fetch a value from memory, you need to supply and index which... must come from input. So I still think Larabee is sub-TC. < 1265137848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can use each argument, then those new things can be used as one input in another computation < 1265137875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the these results only used once < 1265137876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1265137881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until you had no more input < 1265137882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265137889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you could do "not" forever < 1265137892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is unary < 1265137895 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, my brain is hurting now. < 1265137903 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably have lunch. < 1265137906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any binary operators would reduce the number of variables to use < 1265137909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1265137994 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhey, ehird is gone? < 1265137997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't even notice that. < 1265138068 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265138094 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually a bit distressing. He's been more or less constantly present for a long time. < 1265138122 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah ehird is hard to notice < 1265138138 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to own a computer < 1265138196 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In five days he'll join and see that the topic says "20 days since last ehird sighting" :P < 1265138246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1265138273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ... or not < 1265138293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depends on if we remember to update it ;P) < 1265138301 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, true. < 1265138317 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh btw, go to http://sun.com/ < 1265138318 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And cry. < 1265138320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15 days since our last workplace accident. < 1265138353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: seen ehird < 1265138354 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are there documents of that in the general context of the article) contains essentially the whole difference between < 1265138380 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 15 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265138380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a very good "seen" command, though I guess it *could* produce the correct reply too. < 1265138388 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: 'snot likely :P < 1265138426 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265138427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: i know that function level programming is not functional programming. < 1265138430 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-222-156.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265138479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3 "Oh not this again" < 1265138481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO U < 1265138508 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1265138543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: oh FP doesn't refer to functional programming, it refers to backus' original function-level language < 1265138557 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1265138575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw i'm answering old messages so i have no idea what you are saying now yet) < 1265138639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fungot: seen ehird <-- implement such a command then < 1265138640 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: deep macrology? beh, beh. i don't seem to have run into the fnord status.' < 1265138801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't one of the bots already have such a thing? < 1265138815 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265138821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, style < 1265138821 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you can always fnord the occasional scheme code here. use lisppaste. < 1265138844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Yes, but it might not be a good idea to fnord Scheme. < 1265138845 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: glyp glof! varsinkin se yksi ( jos se en on siell), jossa ne fnord niit fnord! fnord!" " jenwolf sucks!" " fnord < 1265138857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, a rare bit of Finnish there. < 1265138909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"glyp glof"? < 1265138918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you are heavy on the fnords over there! < 1265138919 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't know what that was about. < 1265138962 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am disconcerted by the notion that both "glyp" and "glof" occur often enough to not be "fnord" < 1265138999 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Often enough" means "more than once" here, but still. < 1265139042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:52:44] < oerjan> !exec "Argle bargle, glof glyp!"PrntNl < 1265139042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:52:48] < oklobot2> Argle bargle, glof glyp! < 1265139042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:54:53] < oerjan> !exec "Argle bargle, "PrntNl "glyp glof!"PrntNl < 1265139042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-12.log:[2006-12-27 21:55:00] < oklobot2> glyp glof! < 1265139049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems that you can blame oerjan. < 1265139057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, you can always blame oerjan!) < 1265139075 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Consider yourself blamed! < 1265139231 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing with the ".seen" command was apparently a bot nicknamed "Endeavour", and I don't remember it at all; and it's been here pretty much only in 2008-04, and twice in 2009-01. < 1265139315 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: lambdabot has a @seen command, i don't know about any here... < 1265139383 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: glyp and glof are famous H2G2 words < 1265139395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1265139400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's glop glyf < 1265139434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006-11.log:[2006-11-12 21:09:23] < oerjan> !bf_txtgen Argle bargle, glop glyf < 1265139434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2008-11.log:[2008-11-15 00:32:26] < oerjan> fungot: argle bargle, glop glyf < 1265139435 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: don't throw the pic away, i'll check that out. how do you implement by yourself < 1265139437 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's always you. < 1265139448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could tell envbot to join, it has a seen command < 1265139461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but due to being written in bash it isn't very esoteric < 1265139483 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not totally convinced we need one. And anyway, fungot ought to be clever enough to spontaneously develop one. < 1265139483 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hey! eso already exists. and, instruction and operand ( including numbers) < 1265139524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh no, not the blaming! < 1265139593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is no a jour < 1265139595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*now < 1265139669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : argh no, not the blaming! <-- is it just me, or was this a very vague and obscure discworld reference? < 1265139672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*à < 1265139677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc, one of the tiffany series?) < 1265139701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a chance, unless my unconscious has read more pratchett than me < 1265139708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1265139878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would not rule that out entirely though < 1265140008 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out sometimes his recalls really are vague < 1265140029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think? < 1265140118 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't caught that many errors < 1265140132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to the amount of vaguations < 1265140193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously my really vague recalls are about ancient mysteries lost in time that you youngsters would have no hope of checking *MWAHAHAHA* < 1265140237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or possibly i left no witnesses. < 1265140892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"take only photographs, leave no witnesses." i like that. < 1265141094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not really that big on photographs either < 1265141184 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh yeah, they can be used as evidence of a court of law, cain't they. Well nix that then. < 1265141198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/of/in/ < 1265141217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of, too, i believe < 1265141253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also an excellent place to leave no witnesses < 1265142210 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265142632 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY that's a segue to http://codu.org/projects/zee/ < 1265142638 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265142638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for the segue guys < 1265142641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265142680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've had that idea < 1265142691 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i almost considered doing something with it < 1265142698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well, maybe not *almost* < 1265142715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not much less < 1265142731 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you had PLOT ideas? :P < 1265142744 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. plots make games impure. < 1265142749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as do "based on"'s < 1265142755 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265142778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes his games flash and ball. < 1265142796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ball being the objects, flash being how the game is implemented < 1265142816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but umm plot... < 1265142834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Based on true story" games! < 1265142858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on a filthy lie < 1265142909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i might consider thinking about a plot, in the future maybe, or not. < 1265142924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be so awesome < 1265142930 0 :speeskees!~whtspc@a230227.upc-a.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265142936 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was like a 10 hour game, but you just have one crime scene photo < 1265143074 0 :speeskees!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265143102 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't be a problem to do realistic rendering for the graphics :P < 1265143823 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265144941 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nearly every definition of "execute" is nearly antonymous with "terminate". Except for the most common one, which is synonymous. Funny thing, English. < 1265145559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the most common one is what? < 1265145584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION executes a swatting, terminating oklopol -----### < 1265145648 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in execution. Mr. Bobbert was executed. < 1265145648 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/TMMLPTEALPAITAFNFAL <-- hmm, this is interesting < 1265145660 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try to build a polyglot in all variants of that language :) < 1265145672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you mean the one that involved killing, i checked two dictionaries, in one it was the second to last meaning, in the other one there wasn't even a mention of that use. granted, these are pretty crappy dictionaries < 1265145677 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*involves < 1265145684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower < 1265145686 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"execute" = euphemism for "execute a death warrant" < 1265145697 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1265145701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i'm pretty sure that's the least used meaning < 1265145701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that doesn't matter. < 1265145705 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's how words come to be. < 1265145707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ??? < 1265145712 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Maybe for a computer scientist. < 1265145721 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and based on the dictionaries < 1265145746 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dictionaries don't index by meaning frequency ... < 1265145749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :checked two other web ones and there was no mention of killing < 1265145752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true... < 1265145778 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meaning #3 at dictionary.coim is: " to inflict capital punishment on; put to death according to law." < 1265145787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I argue that that is the most common meaning understood by English speakers. < 1265145801 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It may not be in sane countries, but I'm in a country with the death sentence. < 1265145808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265145809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what's more remarkable is the frequency of use of euphemisms in English-speaking countries... < 1265145810 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Executions, y'know, *happen* here. < 1265145831 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think it's legit to say it's still a euphemism for that. It's just taken on that meaning. < 1265145844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true... i think of executing as a term you'd only need when talking about 14th century france < 1265145850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the killing one < 1265145873 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I hold a different opinion - the euphemistic meaning has become the dominant one, but it's still a euphemism. < 1265145879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14th century france, 21st century US, what's the difference *ducks* < 1265145901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ducks are very different in usa, yes < 1265145937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gameboy emulators without any sort of throttling... < 1265145943 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to play most games with. < 1265145944 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: lawl < 1265145946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Amazing* for RPGs. < 1265145963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Suck it, grinding.": < 1265145976 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID < 1265146095 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there really should be something that lists frequencies of different meanings of words, at least a rough estimate < 1265146162 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Mr. Command. Execute him! < 1265146163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be hard to determine < 1265146187 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not. < 1265146196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe in 1% of cases < 1265146208 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"does this word mean do or kill?" < 1265146248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean for an entire dictionary < 1265146265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that do and execute are actually synonyms in any context < 1265146311 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it could be so rough an estimate it's actually just random numbers < 1265146339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Wordnet has count-of-occurrences-in-tagged-texts, which sort of tries to be an estimate for that. < 1265146355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's just that not all meanings even have any counts there. < 1265146398 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sort of works for "real common" / "not so common" distinguishment; for red as an adjective: < 1265146400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The adj red has 3 senses (first 3 from tagged texts) < 1265146401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265146401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. (43) red, reddish, ruddy, blood-red, carmine, cerise, cherry, cherry-red, crimson, ruby, ruby-red, scarlet -- (of a color at the end of the color spectrum (next to orange); resembling the color of blood or cherries or tomatoes or rubies) < 1265146401 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. (8) crimson, red, violent -- (characterized by violence or bloodshed; "writes of crimson deeds and barbaric days"- Andrea Parke; "fann'd by Conquest's crimson wing"- Thomas Gray; "convulsed with red rage"- Hudson Strode) < 1265146402 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. (7) crimson, red, reddened, red-faced, flushed -- ((especially of the face) reddened or suffused with or as if with blood from emotion or exertion; "crimson with fury"; "turned red from exertion"; "with puffy reddened eyes"; "red-faced and violent"; "flushed (or crimson) with embarrassment") < 1265146447 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, execute? < 1265146462 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. (2) execute, put to death -- (kill as a means of socially sanctioned punishment; "In some states, criminals are executed") < 1265146462 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. (1) execute -- (murder in a planned fashion; "The Mafioso who collaborated with the police was executed") < 1265146462 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. (1) carry through, accomplish, execute, carry out, action, fulfill, fulfil -- (put in effect; "carry out a task"; "execute the decision of the people"; "He actioned the operation") < 1265146467 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other four meanings don't have a count. < 1265146472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or have a count of zero, if you prefer. < 1265146506 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you use a 14th century dictionary < 1265146538 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is up to you how much a meaning you derive from one or two mentions. < 1265146565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to spelle properlie, of course < 1265146609 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the less data i have, the wilder i can let my imagination run when interpreting it. < 1265146686 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265146753 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rewinding* < 1265146756 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i never used an oracle thing in my life < 1265146764 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That seems like a very prescriptivist approach to language. < 1265146772 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: YOU HAVE NOW < 1265146777 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH THIS SITE REQUIRES JAVACRAPT < 1265146801 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And IMHO prescriptivism is pretty silly for English in particular, and language in general. < 1265146806 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the versions of java i have were pre-oracle < 1265146806 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Prescriptivist? I'm not the one claiming throwing around "not legit to say that" :) < 1265146810 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/claiming// < 1265146837 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, i'm hoping they'll keep releasing open stuff < 1265146845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Fair enough :P < 1265146868 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: I was assuming that all Sun things, past and present, were now Oracle things. And in that case, it's amusing that you think Java is the only Sun thing you use. < 1265146884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prescriptivism is the only way mankind could ever escape the horrors of natural language < 1265146896 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably not the only thing < 1265146900 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh... < 1265146908 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what else do you think i'd use? < 1265146920 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've really only done j2se and j2me < 1265146923 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1265146929 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do use any Unix system? < 1265146937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, you think language is just going to *evolve* into something sensible? do you know how ridiculous that sounds... < 1265146957 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun has tentacles in every corner of nearly every Unix system. Maybe not huge portions, but little bits everywhere. < 1265147018 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i use freebsd here, linux on my lappy < 1265147026 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not using any zfs. < 1265147048 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually use the diablo jdk < 1265147051 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on freebsd < 1265147084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sun is a contributor to the Linux kernel, X11, GNOME off the top of my head. < 1265147087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that augur isn't here, must be why oklopol hasn't been mauled yet < 1265147096 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And aside from that, everything else. Everything. < 1265147133 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK i'm having trouble finding the j2se library documentation < 1265147134 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, Sun has contributed to open-source products I use every day. How shall I ever escape their diabolical grip. < 1265147137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything under the sun < 1265147165 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265147176 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying anything negative about Sun, I'm just saying that the not-insubstantial possibility that they'll stop being the Sun we know and love is bad. < 1265147206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you'll have to cleanse it in holy water, i hear jews do that < 1265147210 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265147231 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/ < 1265147232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you i'm not sure if they apply it to electronics < 1265147253 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably applies well to programs < 1265147280 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread "Sun has contraband in open-source products I use every day". That's quite a statement. < 1265147300 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear oracle: why did it take about 5 clicks from the front page to get to the j2se API documentation? < 1265147317 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: Because you should have gone to java.sun.com ? < 1265147332 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265147342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to google for "java api" and go from there; never bothered to bookmark the thing. < 1265147342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So glad I'm not a "Java person". < 1265147355 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hmmkay... i shall hopefully remember that < 1265147357 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No offense to any "Java people" here of course. < 1265147371 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java people need more offense :P < 1265147379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think we have many indonesians here < 1265147401 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :takes 4 clicks < 1265147425 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i attempted to make a java decompiler once < 1265147426 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read those two sentences as one, "oerjan: i don't think we need any indonesians here" < 1265147432 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could get the bytecode alright < 1265147445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was slightly out of character for oerjan < 1265147453 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however i think i was lacking in knowledge of decompilers < 1265147453 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could share a homework question answer reply from comp.lang.c I found amusing: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/msg/a64002d547d3a95f < 1265147457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*slightly* < 1265147494 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...people still use usenet? < 1265147511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey, yes of course < 1265147527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you? < 1265147531 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1265147535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course they do; clc is a very very active group. Admittedly it's mostly full of spam and bizarre madness, as opposed to on-topic things, but still. < 1265147539 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i'm encountering archives and stuff < 1265147546 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence, clcm. < 1265147561 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265147566 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How delightfully useless :P < 1265147567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: What, and not read all that spinoza1111 stuff? < 1265147583 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, exactly. :-P < 1265147626 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And all Kenny McCormick crossposts between comp.lang.c and rec.games.bridge? < 1265147635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, clcm? < 1265147640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: comp.lang.c.moderated. < 1265147644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265147646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265147648 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes, those too. < 1265147652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clc was not about clc-intercal? < 1265147655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1265147659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fooling me like that < 1265147668 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are as easily fooled as ever. < 1265147680 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Given that I had mentioned the full "comp.lang.c" name in my previous comment, I thought the abbreviation safe. < 1265147698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That price is too high to pay for some peace and quiet. < 1265147707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, meh < 1265147724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I didn't read the full url < 1265147733 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's also in the text before the URL. < 1265147743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "meh" < 1265147767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I can't spot it when re-reading, why would I have spotted it first time ;P < 1265148061 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what's the best way to do usenet? < 1265148067 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: hopefully, free. < 1265148113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: I don't really know the best way; I just read using my ISP's NNTP server and slrn at the moment (though the actual newsreader changes from time to time). < 1265148127 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm :( < 1265148143 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have an nntp server.. i don't even have 'an isp' (i travel a lot around da world) < 1265148147 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone -- I don't remember who -- used http://www.eternal-september.org/ for that. < 1265148161 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be somewhat free. < 1265148180 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: what game do you cheat at to have the money for that? < 1265148192 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: your mom < 1265148193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of connections per day per user limited? That sounds like it sucks < 1265148194 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Though with some connection limits and no binaries-style groups.) < 1265148201 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that looks useful, thanks < 1265148215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Does your ISP provide the binaries-style groups? < 1265148222 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: probably not. < 1265148229 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: you use easynews for that. < 1265148282 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265148283 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was asking because he said explicitly that eternal-september doesn't, whereas it seems to me that it's more noteworthy if something does. < 1265148299 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think they do, though I might be wrong. "grep ^alt.binaries newsrc-nebula | wc -l" at least says 1911, but I haven't checked if the groups contain any content. < 1265148374 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I do remember that Saunalahti (or Scifi) used to, because they also had a nifty service that decoded all alt.binaries groups automagically into files on a network filesystem that was visible on their shell server. < 1265148405 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265148409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long ago was that? < 1265148438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess late 1990s. < 1265148510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt.binaries.music appears to have 75k headers here at least; let's see if there's any content < 1265148519 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was something like a hundred gigabytes (this was a big deal back then) full of copyrighted software and porn. < 1265148527 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And possibly a few other files, but that was the majority of it. < 1265148528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that link: "Today is September, 6000 1993, the september that never ends " < 1265148535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should possibly (not) be celebrated < 1265148575 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, is it the 6000th day today (in some time zones)? Almost went by without noticing. < 1265148578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 would be interested in it < 1265148587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes I just mentioned it! < 1265148617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, it was a reaction to that. < 1265148641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME FOR MOAR MST3K < 1265148645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "hey" implied (to me) "look what I found out" < 1265148664 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was "hey" in the "surprised interjection" sense. < 1265148673 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does look like there's data there, too. So apparently Welho provides. < 1265148676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1265148678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well then < 1265148688 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elisa didn't, IIRC. < 1265148760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, didn't what? < 1265148763 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, and in addition to the news-decoding, they had a huge "/work" directory that was also usable for sharing large files with other Saunalahti customers; that one was also full of pirated software too, though not as much porn. < 1265148781 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: See e.g. http://sektori.com/uutinen/saunalahtea-moititaan-piratismin/1457/ < 1265148795 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it got discontinued after getting official notice like that. < 1265148810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But before that, it had been quietly distributing data for at least some years. < 1265148828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Provide binary newsgroups. < 1265148831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265148841 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"syytää" :P < 1265148865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newszilla6.xs4all.nl provides binaries < 1265148875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :readonly only (afaik) < 1265148881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that is ipv6 only < 1265149075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And as for the "number of connections per day limited" of eternal-september.org, the limit is 1200 connections/day/user. You can connect 50 times per hour, almost once per minute; I would think you need to have a rather terminal combination of Usenet addiction and short attention span to run into that limit, assuming you just connect-read-disconnect (or even connect-fetch-disconnect-read) instead of automagically polling a lot. < 1265149105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why not keep-alive? < 1265149132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "one connection" over NNTP actually do? Download one message? < 1265149153 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, you can keep it open pretty much as long as you wish, and I think newsreaders usually do. < 1265149194 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that last part is just conjecture; certainly it'd be possible to write a newsreader that opens a separate connection whenever you click on a message. < 1265149194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's not much of a limit then indeed. < 1265149284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night →↓←↑ < 1265149341 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265149396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing a cartwheel while going to sleep, how suspiciously athletic. < 1265149432 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265149455 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what is the significance of september 1993? < 1265149492 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September < 1265149563 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh haha < 1265149608 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265149783 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1265149847 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265149894 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1265149916 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265149923 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265150096 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. September 1993 is when Befunge was born :) < 1265150102 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265150116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually all your fault! < 1265150278 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'm proud of how much Befunge, and esolangs in general, have really helped lowered the social standards of teh internets. < 1265150307 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes directionless squawking sounds < 1265150382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define squawk < 1265150384 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* utter a harsh abrupt scream \ * the noise of squawking; "she awoke to the squawk of chickens"; "the squawk of car horns" \ * gripe: complain; "What was he hollering about?" < 1265150405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1265150423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess madness takes its toll < 1265150468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'll be 5 quarters < 1265150946 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the madness I blame squarely on shared objects. < 1265150984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265151795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :squared objects < 1265152036 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right on! Unit test segfaulted! < 1265152294 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? can't you just multiply by it and check if the result is the same? < 1265152305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit unit < 1265152320 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay that's much harder to check < 1265152326 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265152332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet he tested the units but forgot the nulls < 1265152400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nulls are easy to test for, units are sort of hard. unless it's a field, then it's pretty easy. < 1265152405 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great, now we have to write null tests to go with our null tests? < 1265152440 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265152446 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :null tests to go with our unit tests < 1265152463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly. any ring theorist could have told you that. < 1265152514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can only assume cpressey is some sort of an applied ring theorist < 1265152552 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup oklopol < 1265152583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both sup and inf lately, i hear < 1265152609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe i shouldn't spread private conversation < 1265152633 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265152683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also coding theory, but i figured you wouldn't be that interested < 1265152699 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find it a bit too cryptic < 1265152706 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, someone pinged me < 1265152729 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I pong you < 1265152769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was trying to figure out what exactly makes a code C in 2^n a perfect tile, that is, one for which you can find such a_i's that a_i+C's exactly partition 2^n < 1265152771 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will check logs as soon as Google Chrome recovers. < 1265152777 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, string rewriting, a prefect match for numerical computing < 1265152782 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*perfect < 1265152786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sizes are obvious, as is the fact linear codes and their translates all form perfect tiles < 1265152805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are codes that form perfect tiles that have seemingly no structure < 1265152839 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have incidentally built a thue interpreter too < 1265152846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(translate = take the code and add something to it) < 1265152862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a curious incident < 1265152903 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i've been playing with 2^4 hypercubes for hours < 1265152929 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...according to the logs, no one pinged me < 1265152932 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mindboggle* < 1265152935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet you still appear human < 1265152944 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go < 1265152970 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i'll do the following sleeping now: < 1265153312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * sleeping on my side * sleeping on my back * sleeping while standing < 1265153359 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION accidentally got pina colada chapstick, and doesn't even know what pina colada is < 1265153411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi%C3%B1a_colada < 1265153485 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265153594 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265153990 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too many ideas, too little time. < 1265154021 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265154555 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I read that as "I might have accidentally built a thue interpreter too" < 1265154843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265154854 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I meant too as in "as well as what I was attempting to build" < 1265154896 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having already built about 3 of those while actually attempting to < 1265155039 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265155436 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265155504 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-20-227.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265155585 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265155796 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265155826 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265155835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265155905 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265156603 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265156665 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d'oh, I'm missing pieces, this isn't even TC < 1265158588 0 :cheater4!~cheater@ip-80-226-222-156.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265158626 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265159523 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265169484 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265169637 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265169711 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265170181 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265170305 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265171226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265174111 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265175792 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265175853 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265175906 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265176041 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265177049 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265177319 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :javawizard < 1265178556 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265179370 0 :javawizard!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265179446 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265180316 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265180480 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265182429 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265183380 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265183381 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, they're doing something with the pipes and absolutely no water should go in the drain; i've already managed to use the sink twice and flush the toilet once < 1265183725 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265183757 0 :lifthrasiir!MXKhGuS9@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265183774 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265183946 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265183999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265184000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265184040 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265184167 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265184423 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265184578 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265184670 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You literally give a crap about their instructions, then. < 1265184993 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265185104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it was pee, if you must know < 1265185111 0 :lifthrasiir!zLyncUCw@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265185120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably would've realized during a longer operation < 1265185311 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In retrospect, I'm not sure I actually wanted to start a conversation about this. < 1265185466 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this context, i'll interpret "retrospect" as "looking at ass". < 1265185494 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess that makes no sense < 1265185628 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265185628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With all retrospect due, I really wasn't looking at your ass. < 1265185715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fine < 1265185774 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265185837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to have to take your word for that, though I'm sure it is. < 1265185842 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does linux have a standard way to read djvu files? < 1265185848 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do I need to get one < 1265185885 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of any "standard" way but viewers do exist < 1265185901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to get a way from here? < 1265185951 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure I can get one though < 1265185954 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I be at zerk < 1265185957 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :werk* < 1265185967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evince, which is everywhere, has some support for it, I think. < 1265185970 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure you can install anything on that computer < 1265186054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least djvu's mentioned on http://projects.gnome.org/evince/ and Evince's probably installed on anything Gnomish. < 1265186115 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on scientific linux, is it gnomish? < 1265186137 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think it is < 1265186148 0 :lifthrasiir!l0RSq064@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265186229 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I tried typing evince on the console and it didn"t work, and that's about all my knowledge of linux < 1265186236 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I open it? < 1265186334 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's there, "evince" in a terminal should run it. You may be out of luck there. < 1265186345 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Balls. < 1265186367 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried finding an online converter to pdf but no luck < 1265186379 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone convert the file to pdf for me? < 1265186399 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Russell/Quantum%20Mechanics%20And%20Path%20Integrals%20-%20R.%20Feynman,%20A.%20Hibbs.djvu < 1265186417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KDE's "Okular" supposedly supports djvu too. < 1265186419 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh math < 1265186471 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, SCIENCE! < 1265186480 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it are physics)\ < 1265186513 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm oh quantum mechanics < 1265186514 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I'm at the lectures of a course from the maths department at the moment; so technically this is math too. (But it's about numeric methods, so maybe it doesn't count.) < 1265186521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just read blah blah path integrals < 1265186550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc quantum mechanics is certainly more interesting than path integrals < 1265186566 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is pretty neato torpedo < 1265186570 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, the concept is < 1265186579 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yell "woohoo math!" < 1265186586 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A particle in this theory actually travels on EVERY POSSIBLE PATH < 1265186620 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how exactly does the path integral come in? < 1265186656 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does it travel in R^3? < 1265186658 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you have to do a sum over all path to find the probabilities of finding the particle here or there < 1265186722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess we could take the space of all continuous paths, and give it a natural measure obtained by some sort of integral average < 1265186734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sum over all path" isn't specific enough < 1265186754 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it is rarely easy to find < 1265186767 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing one right now, for instance < 1265186792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you can't sum over all the paths, there's an uncountable number of them < 1265186795 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You decompose time in little increments, and for the paths, you do all the possible turns you can do < 1265186802 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you take the limit < 1265186837 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265186940 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the possible turns is still an uncountable amount; and is this in R^3? < 1265186955 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iunno < 1265186961 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the example < 1265186967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't know or you don't know what R^3 is? < 1265186979 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is in R^3 < 1265186990 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A particle goes at the speed of light in 1D < 1265187010 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At every time increment, it can do a turn < 1265187029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah in 1D you can do it combinatorially < 1265187042 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So to go from point A to point B, you sum over all the possible turns at every increment of tine < 1265187057 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the end it's ~ an exponential < 1265187075 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by the way can someone convert it to pdf) < 1265187101 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i would do is google "dvu to pdf" < 1265187108 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1265187116 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can't install softwares here < 1265187132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well and "online converter" ofc, i never install anything < 1265187189 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing on the first few pages < 1265187202 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess no one's invented a converter < 1265187372 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is why I ask) < 1265187463 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265187585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hehe, they're doing something with the pipes and absolutely no water should go in the drain; i've already managed to use the sink twice and flush the toilet once < 1265187593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never trust a human to change his habits < 1265187606 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or think about what he's actually doing < 1265187653 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking about teaching math to innocent children < 1265187675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_evil_ math i assume < 1265187713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the math that's evil, it just makes humans evil < 1265187724 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHAH < 1265187743 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turns them into rational, uncaring beasts < 1265187790 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even irrational numbers? < 1265187818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit complex < 1265187861 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's natural enough < 1265187867 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need more number fields < 1265187882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...with funny names < 1265187884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what a surreal idea < 1265188007 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265188078 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265188124 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's plenty of number sets < 1265188140 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructible, computable, compressible, definable < 1265188162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how are those names funny < 1265188181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the problem with contemporary mathematics, things aren't given funny names < 1265188199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's a contructible number < 1265188211 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh < 1265188222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right ofc i know those < 1265188273 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also algebraic and transcendental < 1265188276 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit like dat < 1265188372 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the definition of a compressible number? < 1265188393 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you have to be careful or it might not be a field < 1265188412 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A number you can write a finite sized program for < 1265188432 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. then what's the definition of computable < 1265188435 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265188440 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you'd have to be able to compress it < 1265188456 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme check < 1265188490 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I might remember the wrong name for it < 1265188546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, finite sized program applies to compressible strings, not real numbers, i think < 1265188556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the program must be shorter than the string < 1265188705 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there are puns involving Z[sqrt(2)] < 1265188717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compressible number doesn't seem to be a real term < 1265188726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Z(sqrt(2)) if we want to emphasize fieldness i suppose < 1265188747 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might have been incompressible < 1265188812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no better < 1265188839 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://homepages.cwi.nl/~paulv/schedule06/intro.ps < 1265188857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i don't put quotes around, google wants to give me (un)compressible flows instead < 1265188893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't do postscript < 1265188973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unrecoverable error: configurationerror in setpagedevice < 1265188974 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Operand stack: < 1265188974 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false --nostringval-- < 1265188974 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failed to open device or install ViewerPreProcess hook: returns -26 < 1265188982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither, it seems < 1265188997 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265189299 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265190160 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol : http://arxiv.org/pdf/hep-th/9302097v1 < 1265190171 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want the path integral mathematically < 1265190184 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It describes it a bit < 1265190196 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the hilarious wiener measure < 1265190210 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, now there's a funny name < 1265190304 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was waiting for you < 1265190335 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :":This calculus in functional space (“Wiener measure”) attracted < 1265190336 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :several mathematicians" < 1265190342 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They love wiener measures < 1265190461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this file is damaged and could not be viewed" < 1265190463 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265190475 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nigga you got file proble;s < 1265191756 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265193026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1265193862 0 :iamcal!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265193948 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265193984 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265193989 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265197745 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265200459 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I check what Linux I have? < 1265200530 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lsb_release -a" if it happens to support that LSB thing, but not all do. < 1265200554 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1265200565 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it does, the "Description" field is most likely a human-readable sensible thing. < 1265200589 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scientific Linux < 1265200592 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn it < 1265200603 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's close to some other linux < 1265200606 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's check < 1265200648 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be at least slightly related to Red Hat Enterprise Linux. < 1265200695 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a free and open source operating system based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux and aims to be 100% compatible with and based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux. < 1265200827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You talk like a free, web-based, collaborative, multilingual encyclopedia project. < 1265200851 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure do < 1265200856 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forgot the quotes < 1265200869 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like to type too much here, the keyboard is qwerty < 1265200909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, who still uses qwerty < 1265200929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i do but you know that's not relevant. < 1265200937 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvxyz ,.-?!";: -- there, you can copy-paste most of the things you'll ever need out of that; no need for typing. < 1265200944 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :France does not < 1265200978 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Visited CERN once, the azerty keyboards in the terminals there were confusing. < 1265201009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't azerty even stupider < 1265201038 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, confirmed : I can't install a software here without admin priviledges < 1265201304 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're drilling in harmonic major second outside, i love it < 1265201361 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drill baby drill < 1265201364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, a tritone xD < 1265201397 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't concentrate with all this beautiful music around me < 1265201426 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put on some shitty music then < 1265201475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or i could just not concentrate < 1265201818 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian package single-line descriptions are sometimes less than informative; what'd you expect from "gaia - interface to the planet"? < 1265201837 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some Pandora shit < 1265201848 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just plug in your ponytail < 1265201870 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, in fact, "an Earth viewer that lets you navigate around the globe and zoom into almost any place". < 1265201882 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how that's interfacing with the planet, but. < 1265201959 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what am i wearing < 1265201982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay that's not fair, i'm not outside < 1265202114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be much more interfacingy if I could also change what you're wearing. < 1265202126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, true < 1265202148 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds really scary after your questions about my ass < 1265202166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or how did the conversation go again < 1265203343 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1265203368 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP < 1265203485 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java.sun.com is there, but they changed the colours, and it looks less welcoming. < 1265206131 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265208573 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265209637 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265210611 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265211202 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265211639 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265212354 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265212809 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: Soon it'll forward to oracle.com/ogppl , and be renamed to the Oracle General Purpose Programming Language < 1265212845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Solaris will be renamed to Oracle System Services < 1265212872 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they'll try to rename JavaScript to OracleScript < 1265212915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then they'll rename VirtualBox to Oracle Virtual System and MySQL to the Oracle Database Sy--no wait. < 1265212975 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MySQL will be renamed Oracle Database Demo :P < 1265213024 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't MySQL just be forked? < 1265213033 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but why? PostgreSQL is better. < 1265213055 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easier on systems already using MySQL? < 1265213074 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure Oracle provides a very handy upgrade path :P < 1265213081 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oracle General Purpose Programming Language" haha < 1265213149 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah they could make a fork called OurSQL or something < 1265213153 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey WOT plugin on Chrome: I love how long it takes you to warn me that I'm on a distrusted site < 1265213191 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MySQL fans, that is < 1265213276 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265213425 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265213432 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265213460 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265213490 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265214053 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265214806 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265214827 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265214929 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265214984 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265215485 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265216025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phew < 1265216049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.5 dm snow during the night to today, then when I got home, another dm of snow < 1265216151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: open and mostly flat landscape around here and strong winds < 1265216164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really really bad roads today < 1265216282 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: who measures in decimetres? < 1265216307 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, 0.15m, 15cm, and 150mm would all be more plausible units there < 1265216524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, err, dm isn't all that uncommon in Sweden < 1265216553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in "a few decimetres" or such. < 1265216574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh and there is a class 1 warning for this part of the country < 1265216586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: higher numbers are worse, it goes up to 3) < 1265216619 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, 25cm of snow would be enough for a severe weather warning here in the UK < 1265216626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, we're less used to large amounts of snow < 1265216660 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweden. < 1265216663 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweden is so weird. < 1265216673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also, have you ever been traveling in an articulated bus that met another articulated bus on a already narrow street made yet more narrow due to the roughly 1.5 meter high heaps of snow on the sidewalks (also they extended a fair bit out in the street) < 1265216690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, really, this winter has been unusually bad < 1265216692 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265216694 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, articulated busses are rare enough here as they are, and I don't think I've ever seen two at once < 1265216699 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*buses < 1265216715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well same line, so two buses on the same line met < 1265216723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really they had a hard time managing (I was in one) < 1265216755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, anyway what about non-articulated buses. < 1265216775 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, I see those all the time < 1265216783 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the record was something like 20 at once, that was a fun day < 1265216794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I meant: the above scenario for other buses... < 1265216805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe you don't get enough snow to have a street made so narrow due to snow... < 1265216808 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, something had fallen off the roof of one of the big new skyscrapers in Birmingham and landed on one of the most major roundabouts there < 1265216815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265216822 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they had to close the roundabout as a result, while they did safety checks < 1265216839 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pretty much every car driver avoided the city centre that day, but the busses didn't < 1265216846 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they somehow managed to all be clumped in a really huge line < 1265216855 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing for half an hour, then 20 at once, on a huge range of different routes < 1265216913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but that is still not quite like the scenario I described. Also it was snowing heavily at that point and the visibility was poor. < 1265216956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh and skyscraper, how many stories does it need to be that < 1265216962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just a tall house < 1265216977 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not sure, I think it's a relative term < 1265216991 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's one of the tallest buildings in Birmingham, many tens of storeys < 1265216993 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stories < 1265217035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could 15 stories or so be a sky-scraper anywhere? < 1265217042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is about the tallest around here I think < 1265217068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here = not just this town, but also the city a bit away < 1265217091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this town, I guess around 5 stories, maybe 7 in some of those newer houses... < 1265217172 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1265217229 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265217235 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265217284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit no oklopol < 1265217311 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 16 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265217366 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something I've wondered for a while but never got clear on. If I compile with "gcc -ansi", does that necessarily preclude using any and all POSIX calls? < 1265217381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, btw, the snow outside the university reached above my knees outside one of the doors I had to reach < 1265217390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the wind blowing it up against the house < 1265217399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not nice < 1265217400 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the header files take clues from the compiler as to which POSIX calls they should include < 1265217412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, bad weather in norway too? < 1265217418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by default, I think gcc tells them to use a GNUish set; if you say -ansi, it tells them to use an ANSI set < 1265217424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, some 2.5 dm or so since yesterday here < 1265217427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still snowing < 1265217428 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can write your own #defines in order to select one yourself < 1265217460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no new snow here, although below -10 temperatures, no wind to speak of. i don't really call that bad... < 1265217462 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Thanks. < 1265217476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well strong wind here... < 1265217489 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: man 7 feature_test_macros describes the whole mess < 1265217506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, official warning (lowest level) from SHMI and such < 1265217546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw some warnings on yr.no in weeks previous, although i think trondheim was mostly missed < 1265217566 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I'd rather not get into that :) I guess my question becomes, is there any sanctioned way in -ansi (-std=c89) to sleep for a given number of milliseconds? < 1265217579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, lucky you < 1265217583 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, milliseconds are too fine-grained, and that's actually impossible in DOS < 1265217594 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the minimum sleep length is 1/19.2 seconds in DOS, for some reason I don't fully understand) < 1265217608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we did have approx -20 temperatures for a short while, though < 1265217611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, fun yr.no claims it isn't snowing around here any longer < 1265217618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking out I have to strongly disagree < 1265217632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, it's not always accurate < 1265217650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, they could update it with current data as well < 1265217656 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1265217657 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1265217658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1265217658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I believe that's the frequency of one of the timer chips from the original PC architecture. But anyway -- OK, I might have to take a different approach. < 1265217671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also it is generally better than most other ones I know of < 1265217678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus when it isn't better it is fun to poke fun at it < 1265217681 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want a guaranteed millisecond sleep, you could require POSIX 2001 (that's #define _POSIX_C_SOURCE 200112L) and use select < 1265217706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh do you look at yr.no often too? :D < 1265217710 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could require SUSv2 compatibility (#define _XOPEN_SOURCE 500) and use usleep < 1265217712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (the minimum sleep length is 1/19.2 seconds in DOS, for some reason I don't fully understand) <-- can't you change it iirc < 1265217714 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I don't really need for it to be guaranteed. Actually, I don't really need for it to be compiled with -ansi, except for a perverse sense of pride. < 1265217717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :setting the PIT to a higher freq < 1265217720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something such < 1265217750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in cooperation with the norwegian meteorological institute, you'd imagine they had _some_ clue < 1265217755 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if going for maximum portability, you could abstract out the sleep to a separate file and have it with a bunch of ifdefs for sleeps on differnt platforms < 1265217760 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265217761 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@84.249.39.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265217761 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265217791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, nah, they just check the weather stone < 1265217800 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*different < 1265217808 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Not maximum portability, but yes, I'm thinking now to just #ifdef on whether -ansi was specified. If so, approximate sleeps to the nearest second ('cos I think C89 has something for that) < 1265217821 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, time < 1265217852 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265217870 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I can say "compiles with -ansi -pedantic" and satisfy my sick sense of pride in that. Just need to discover that that define is. Whee! < 1265217886 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: #ifdef __STRICT_ANSI__ < 1265217892 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the feature test macros work both ways round! < 1265217911 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-97-44.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265217912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And scarf will even volunteer that information. This must be my lucky day! < 1265217914 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, I think that's a glibc definition < 1265217922 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a really perverse sense of portability < 1265217947 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you wanted to be less perverse, you'd instead check that, say, _POSIX_C_SOURCE /wasn't/ set) < 1265218040 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265218054 0 :cheater!~cheater@pd956992b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265218321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, -ansi is C89 iirc? < 1265218339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yup. < 1265218348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so what is wrong with C99 < 1265218357 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The manpage even says it's equivalent to "-std=c89". < 1265218373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't claim it jumped the shark, it didn't. The difference to C89 aren't that large < 1265218374 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing's "wrong" with C99, I just don't want to require it. < 1265218381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, meh < 1265218395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it didn't jump the shark :) < 1265218400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything supports the most useful subset of C99 these days. Windows doesn't count (and on windows icc does it) < 1265218404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and mingw) < 1265218407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and so on) < 1265218431 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I guess you did not see me type "sick sense of pride" twice above? < 1265218436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly anything supports all of C99, though < 1265218445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, sure, complex numbers thingy and such < 1265218457 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know you dislike python 3, but at least it exists < 1265218459 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 doesn't, really < 1265218465 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a standard that only half caught on < 1265218472 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1265218478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"most useful subset" = stdint.h, restrict, stdbool.h, inline, // comments, for (int i ...) and a few such things < 1265218490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and .fieldname = foo initialisers < 1265218494 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265218523 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, at least there's only one C99. There's like three RSS 2.0's. < 1265218559 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two C89s, though < 1265218561 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, C89 and C90 < 1265218570 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilariously, they're identical except for the section numbering < 1265218574 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes them rather hard to quote < 1265218592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you just *love* to mention that right? < 1265218608 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not massively, but it's worth mentioning in this context < 1265218610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I heard it so many times < 1265218613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from you < 1265218653 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think I've said it that many times (anyone care to grep the logs?), and it probably wasn't aimed at you each time < 1265218705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not aimed at at me every time no < 1265218734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also hard to grep for due to exact wording differing < 1265218875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually about that amount of snow, other member of household got home, apparently I missed out on two rounds of clearing away the snow during the day. So add about 20 cm to that above... < 1265218929 0 :MigoMipo!kvirc@109.58.9.138.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265218935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, so around 45 cm of snow then < 1265218944 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot for one day < 1265218991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, quite, 10-15 cm being more normal "lot of snow for one day" around here < 1265219085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has been both the coldest and the snowiest winter for a long time < 1265219096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it even beat that amount some 5 years ago or so < 1265219507 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265220381 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265220709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh btw, about 40 cars has gone over the side of the roads in this . Due to the extremely slippery roads, partly caused by snow blowing across them. < 1265221514 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a funge like befunge-93 but with inserting and removing rows/columns? < 1265221549 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is it tc? < 1265221605 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater4: ooh, I wrote something a bit like that < 1265221612 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm trying to remember the name < 1265221615 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Shove < 1265221622 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not that < 1265221623 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'a bit'? < 1265221627 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'splain < 1265221641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sprain your brain < 1265221642 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265221666 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sprain my brain when i'm reading the mysql manual. < 1265221677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater4, use postgresql < 1265221680 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't seem to be online, how strange < 1265221729 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck sql and their non-deterministic totalitarian regime < 1265221746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shove is conspicuously absent < 1265221747 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: just write it again, what could be so hard. :p < 1265221782 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reference interp: http://pastebin.ca/1786097 < 1265221787 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely, I seem to never have written a spec < 1265221789 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I believe it's TC < 1265221845 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1265221848 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is shove after all? < 1265221853 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, just not online < 1265221871 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265221898 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus christ perl < 1265221899 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate perl < 1265221922 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1265221948 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1265221956 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate it because i don't know it. < 1265221960 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your having perl problems I feel bad for you son, I got 99 programming problems but regex ain't one < 1265221966 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that good enough for you? < 1265221975 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have problems with regex < 1265221984 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but RAP (regex ain't perl) < 1265221998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that a quote? < 1265222002 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265222005 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im rapping about perl < 1265222008 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's from an old blue song < 1265222011 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blues < 1265222027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i mean literally < 1265222031 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265222033 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's modified < 1265222126 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265222161 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.115.160.139 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265222165 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1265222170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i note that googling "if you're having perl problems" gives several relevant hits, but not with "regex" < 1265222229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater4, MissPiggy: to add some context to the above. in Swedish "rap" means "burp" (the verb form would be "att rapa" - "to burp") < 1265222231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i conclude that regexes _are_ a problem in perl ;D < 1265222248 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are rappers with guns after me < 1265222249 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enemies that want to make sure I'm dead < 1265222249 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rap critics that say, "he only cares about money and women" < 1265222304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we scandinavians frequently rape after dinner < 1265222378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck if it's old _enough_, it may not have been a joke when it started < 1265222543 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone planning to enter the CROBOTS tournament? http://crobots.deepthought.it/home.php?link=91 < 1265222739 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... not much BF_Joust action :-( < 1265222754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately not < 1265222922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC hates tail-call optimisation when longjmp is in use. < 1265223457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, tell me, what are you trying to do.... < 1265223460 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265223469 0 :cheater99!~cheater@pd956992b.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265223470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are you trying to implement call/cc? < 1265223480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, arrgh, and that won't work after you returned < 1265223497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: call/cc with continuation-passing style. < 1265223518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meaning no returning. < 1265223531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works, GCC just doesn't tail-call optimize it at all. < 1265223605 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude if you wantCWCC don't use longjmp < 1265223644 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: But it works just fine if you write continuation-passing style. < 1265223656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This means that functions never, ever return. < 1265223665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so longjmp() isn't tail call optimised? < 1265223696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, functions *with them* aren't tail call optimised. < 1265223732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A tail call to fact becomes "call fact;addq $248, %rsp;ret" < 1265223771 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265223778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a tail call to longjmp becomes "call longjmp". < 1265223789 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "longjmp and then ret", just < 1265223793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"call longjmp". < 1265223823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :__attribute__((noreturn)) makes GCC fecking stupid. < 1265223836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well longjmp doesn't return < 1265223847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. "jmp longjmp" would be valid. < 1265223864 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be a tail-call optimisation. < 1265223875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that longjmp is coded in such a way that it expects to be called by a call < 1265223876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well since it restores the stack, the stack growing is not an issue < 1265223890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, iirc longjmp is a builtin for gcc < 1265223899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not. < 1265223901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is just iirc though < 1265223905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? really? < 1265223905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at the assembly. < 1265223912 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's a bit of both < 1265223918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Builtins get handled differently. < 1265223926 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's special-cased, and so is a builtin in that sense (and you can call it __builtin_longjmp if you like) < 1265223932 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it ends up being turned into a cal in the asm < 1265223934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's almost certainly part of libgcc.a. < 1265223936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah it seems to be libc < 1265223937 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265223941 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*call < 1265223946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extern void _longjmp (struct __jmp_buf_tag __env[1], int __val) < 1265223946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : __THROW __attribute__ ((__noreturn__)); < 1265223946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not a builtin. < 1265223954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The builtins are invariably inlined. < 1265223968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then what about libgcc < 1265223969 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it has properties of a builtin, and properties of a nonbuiltin < 1265223990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libgcc_s even < 1265224034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mmm. < 1265224061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that is just for unsupported instructions kind of stuff (like 64-bit division on 32-bit x86) < 1265224075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Anyways. It seems that longjmp is part of libc. < 1265224110 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember that with gcc-bf, it's in the libc, but has a crazy calling convention that's different from the normal one < 1265224111 0 :|MigoMipo|!kvirc@109.58.7.252.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265224113 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, or is that setjmp? < 1265224123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :setjmp is the crazy one. < 1265224128 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, it's setjmp that needs to be weird, longjmp can just be a normal function call < 1265224129 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265224184 0 :cheater99!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265224185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among other things, it's declared __attribute__((returns_twice)). < 1265224226 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a beautiful attribute < 1265224232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not one that's officially documented, I think < 1265224236 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, it can return more than twice < 1265224261 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265224267 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Returns twice" just means "there is more than one return here. Make sure all registers are dead." < 1265224301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, err, setjmp has the "return twice attribute" yeah < 1265224315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but what other strange calling convention would there be < 1265224336 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, now I'm going to have to look at libbf/setjmp.s < 1265224337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and not one that's officially documented, I think <-- yes it is < 1265224345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm 100% sure I read the docs < 1265224370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, isn't vfork() also returns_twice? < 1265224374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about fork() < 1265224377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. < 1265224383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it returns twice it happens in different processes < 1265224385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fork() isn't. < 1265224395 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It returns twice, sure, but once per stack. < 1265224400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but... on linux vfork() is just fork() iirc? < 1265224405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it is mapped like that < 1265224412 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not quite < 1265224413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since linux does COW anyway < 1265224419 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vfork messes with the scheduling on linux < 1265224425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in what way? < 1265224429 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such that the parent won't run until the child execs < 1265224434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1265224435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1265224438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need a mutex or such < 1265224443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it wait < 1265224447 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's safe under the same circumstances as it's safe on non-cow systems < 1265224451 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: vfork() halts the parent until the child exits. < 1265224456 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: or execs < 1265224460 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the normal use-case < 1265224470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By any of: _exit, fatal signal, or exec. < 1265224478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or _Exit() < 1265224481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: The *sane* use-case, you mean. :P < 1265224494 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the *portable* use-case, I mean < 1265224503 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because vform means something rather different on, say, SunOS < 1265224505 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*vfork < 1265224505 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: _Exit is an alias for _exit. < 1265224515 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: different standards < 1265224539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, _Exit is C99 too < 1265224543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_exit() is posix < 1265224566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265224577 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really should look at the feature test macros in the man page more. < 1265224588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me why they didn't just use _exit() in C99 < 1265224596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, the behaviour is identical < 1265224598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX requires that _Exit be an alias for _exit. < 1265224605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1265224625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it makes no sense for the two of them to exist. < 1265224629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1265224631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1265224638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay this is strange < 1265224644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3p comes before 2 in my man < 1265224645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on arch < 1265224653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse (and saner) way on ubuntu < 1265224665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to find where to fix it on arch... < 1265224700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah /etc/man_db.conf < 1265225007 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265225491 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265225599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got half a mind to do this with getcontext and setcontext. < 1265225603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(oh, the evil I can do!) < 1265225662 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265225679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, they are removed and/or deprecated in POSIX 2008 iirc < 1265225681 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265225691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1265225693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man page says: < 1265225696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" SUSv2, POSIX.1-2001. POSIX.1-2008 removes the specification of getcontext(), citing portability issues, and recommending that applications be rewritten to use POSIX threads instead." < 1265225698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it's because _exit is in user namespace in C89 < 1265225705 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than implementation namespace < 1265225716 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so adding it might have broken existing C89 programs that used it as a variable name (!) < 1265225720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, so what about printf()? < 1265225724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that user name space? < 1265225732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But POSIX threads aren't a replacement. < 1265225739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not my fault < 1265225749 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, just debating. < 1265225758 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, unless you include stdio.h < 1265225764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthreads are... Threading. getcontext et al are continuations, with which coroutines can be done. < 1265225772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and thereby userspace 'threads') < 1265225788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you could simulate getcontext/setcontext with posix threads and mutexes < 1265225794 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably, they had a choice of making you #include to get _exit(), or just calling it _Exit() and putting it in a preëxisting header < 1265225797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1265225798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, .... < 1265225803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you could. < 1265225812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear lord. < 1265225818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? < 1265225824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would be the most evil fibonacci sequence implementation ever. < 1265225830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1265225833 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I did something similar in continuation.i < 1265225840 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using INTERCAL threads to simulate continuations < 1265225844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuation-passing style using POSIX threads. < 1265225849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wonderful! < 1265225873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a bit irritating on implementations not using user space threads < 1265225882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on m:n mappings it shouldn't be too bad < 1265225891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on 1:1 mappings, well, it would be bad < 1265225904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Could just link against GNU userspace threads for those platforms. < 1265225912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, such as linux? < 1265225918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux uses 1:1 threads < 1265225934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freebsd used to use m:n but switched to 1:1 too < 1265225942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most other are 1:1 I think < 1265225953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NPTL uses either 1:1 or m:n. < 1265225961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ntpl can use m:n? < 1265225963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1265225970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never heard about this before < 1265225974 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure how to switch it over to m:n, but Wikipedia says it can. < 1265225984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nptl* < 1265225986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. < 1265225992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? < 1265225993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't. < 1265226003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An alternative to NPTL's 1×1 model is the m×n model where there are typically more userland threads than schedulable entities. In the m×n implementation, the threading library is responsible for scheduling user threads on the available schedulable entities; " < 1265226010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just saying "this is possible". < 1265226011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-' < 1265226013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265226035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but linux doesn't do it < 1265226053 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU Portable Threads are M:1. < 1265226075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slightly inefficient, but work just about everywhere. < 1265226256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think there was a big error in it when i found it, which i removed :D) < 1265226265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn windows < 1265226270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, big error in what? < 1265226294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well since it ended up here anyhow, in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formally_real_field < 1265226334 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265226337 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265226347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, doing that I would have *one* advantage. < 1265226357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Writing in a functional style makes everything automatically reentrant. < 1265226362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, immutable values. < 1265226561 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, if I did everything with getcontext et al, I could do stuff like have garbage-collected stacks. Which amuses me. < 1265226586 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doing continuation-passing style with pthreads would be a bit like doing it with bash shell calling "exec $0"... no? < 1265226612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Remarkably similar. < 1265226729 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should implement that idea I had for "continuators" a while ago, even though it was really vague and unimplementable. Something about passing continuations between processes/threads, and calling a service to provide new continuations... < 1265226754 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I just liked the term "continuator". < 1265226775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how could you gc the stacks? < 1265226784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also I doubt boehm-gc would like it very much < 1265226792 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Stacks are explicitly allocated. < 1265226814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, boehm-gc would go mad < 1265226819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You literally have to allocate a stack and stick it into a context for creating a new context. < 1265226876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what if you realloc() it? < 1265226876 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265226880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or anyway < 1265226884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you grow it < 1265226909 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265226913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generally, you just allocate a sufficiently large stack. < 1265226932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's normally allocated memory. < 1265226939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which happens to be where the stack pointer is. < 1265226951 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'lo. < 1265226987 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard disk's a little slow this morning < 1265227041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1265227059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey, why are you still using a legacy rotational storage device? < 1265227075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also instead of flying cars: WHERE ARE MY DATA CUBES? < 1265227095 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so how much are, um, 160DMGB+250DMGB SSDs? < 1265227106 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DMGB = drivemakers' gigabytes = 1000^3B < 1265227107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth is DMGB < 1265227136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey, thanks, will use that against ehird (he uses GB/GiB) < 1265227136 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i completely refuse to refer to them as just GB < 1265227152 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GB was always 1024^3 < 1265227167 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those who insist we use GiB for that should learn to stop being so cheap < 1265227212 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some country should bring in a legislation which enforces that a xB is 1024^y bytes < 1265227228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey, G = 1000 in the SI system though < 1265227231 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 1000^x is just false advertising < 1265227237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you using kig for 1000 grams? < 1265227242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265227251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey, ^ < 1265227258 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, note that there's kg, and KB < 1265227261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also they should just use cyliders < 1265227264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cylinders* < 1265227286 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was always 1024 for a KB, anyway < 1265227301 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kig = 1024 grams? < 1265227312 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing is, with metric, you're working with real numbers < 1265227314 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265227323 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a human is supposed to measure it < 1265227324 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow: http://labs.ripe.net/content/pollution-18 < 1265227328 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually) < 1265227337 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with a computer, you're working with integers < 1265227337 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a graph of what happened when 1.1.1.0/24 was put live on the internet < 1265227343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: The SI prefixes are useless for computers, yes. < 1265227345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : kig = 1024 grams? <-- ah hm < 1265227349 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the people who owned it got DOSed < 1265227357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why we shouldn't use SI prefixes. < 1265227360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it, dmkg for "drive makers kilogram" < 1265227365 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, gibibytes. < 1265227371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to keep with GreaseMonkey's logic < 1265227379 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be Kig < 1265227387 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :capital K on KiB < 1265227389 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thing is, it was always 1024 bytes to a KB < 1265227399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265227402 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was also always 1000 grams to a kg < 1265227419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't 1.0.0.0/8 private? < 1265227421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265227423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is 10 < 1265227425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1265227440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.0.0.0/8 was recently assigned. < 1265227448 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, it's been used as a private space. < 1265227465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was reserved by the IANA since '81) < 1265227468 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a huge amount of unofficial use of 1.0.0.0 < 1265227475 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at first i thought you said they allocated 10.0.0.0/8 < 1265227490 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the authorities are holding on to 1.1.1.0/24 on the basis that it would be crazy to allocate it to anyone < 1265227508 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1265227523 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it looks like RIPE decided to put it online for a bit to see what happened < 1265227529 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the result was chaos, as you can imagine) < 1265227580 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : We can certainly conclude from this that specific blocks in 1/8 such as 1.1.1.0/24 and 1.2.3.0/24 are extremely polluted. Unless the traffic sent towards those blocks is significantly reduced they might be unusable in a production environment. < 1265227678 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not so bad considering that they actually tested it before attempting to release it < 1265227734 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's brilliant that they even thought of testing < 1265227769 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be why AW's server was so damn slow < 1265227791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I couldn't imagine before reading it that it was chaos < 1265227811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly because I couldn't imagine people would be abusing reserved prefixes < 1265227820 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Wikipedia has edits from 1.2.3.4, you can check that yourself < 1265227829 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what cottoned me on to thinking that there might be a problem < 1265227835 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it also has edits from 127.0.0.1, which is amazing) < 1265227838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what does that signify btw < 1265227844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 1.2.3.4 thing I mean < 1265227854 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that someone, probably a dev, put a fake IP in for the edit < 1265227859 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not sure whyt < 1265227860 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*why < 1265227863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265227872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, as for those 127.0.0.1, what sort of edits < 1265227883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess someone used an ssh tunnel... < 1265227883 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can check for yourself, you know < 1265227889 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Special:Contributions/127.0.0.1 < 1265227893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I don't know how to search on the ip < 1265227894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265227907 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like mostly interwiki links to the Russian Wikipedia < 1265227915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265227922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a bot that wasn't properly logged in? < 1265227951 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:127.0.0.1 is not that bad either < 1265227961 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Note: In the event of vandalism from this address, half-baked abuse reports may be sent to Wikimedia's own network administrator for further investigation that will never be looked into." < 1265227977 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265227994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Caution should never be used when blocking this IP or reverting its contributions without checking - if a block is unnecessary, administrators should consider using the banhammer without adding any templates as the block reason. Of course, most administrators are just testing the blocking and unblocking procedure." < 1265227998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265228004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that backwards? < 1265228004 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH BALLS i can't get on wikipedia >_> <_< < 1265228020 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's backwards < 1265228280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wth at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:1.2.3.4 < 1265228285 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1265228326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea there < 1265228360 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be worth mentioning that it's changed hands since < 1265228383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why allocate 1/8 < 1265228390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just switch to ipv6 already dammit < 1265228401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what changed hands? < 1265228426 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1/8 < 1265228481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265229021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um that's backwards? it seemed sort of logical to me to treat an address heavy-handed if it doesn't really have the right to exist as an editor... < 1265229435 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm tempted to say that IPV6 is the "jumped the shark" of network addressing, but I won't :) It's not /quite/ the same effect... < 1265229465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it *is* about our only hope atm < 1265229478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, any alternatives would take years to develop < 1265229480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's similar, I guess: "I'm only going to start doing it if all my friends are doing it, and my friends feel the same way" < 1265229489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we don't have that amount of time any more < 1265229496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before ipv4 runs out completely < 1265229513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also I use a sixxs tunnel < 1265229634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, my isp has an ipv6 block allocated, they don't use it though < 1265229639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I doubt my router could handle it < 1265229646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could telnet to it and check it's menus < 1265229655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a speedtouch adsl modem/router) < 1265229708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember trying NetBSD once, and it insisting on using IPV6. That was not fun. < 1265229734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Comcast is beginning the switch to IPv6 *now*. < 1265229748 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How very NetBSDish... "No! We will do it the RIGHT way, no matter what the cost!" < 1265229760 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what the crap < 1265229769 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: heh < 1265229772 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :netbsd should still be using IPv2 < 1265229781 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT seems more netbsdish to me < 1265229788 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: Heh < 1265229819 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my netbsd experience is that it takes up sod-all RAM < 1265229855 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: Garbage collection and manual memory management are highly overrated. < 1265229869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just statically create a heap of a couple gigabytes and hope it works. < 1265229870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265229906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use your nanobots to create a few cubic meters of computronium < 1265229998 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: or the anagolf technique of just using whatever memory addresses happened to be in the variables at the time, and repeatedly running the program until they turn out to be writable < 1265230112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, my isp hasn't started going ipv6 yet < 1265230113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1265230117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things will be bad < 1265230125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because almost no servers will have ipv6 < 1265230132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you will have to go through 6-to-4 < 1265230134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that < 1265230139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will result in problems < 1265230146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like connection limit counts for irc < 1265230147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what not < 1265230164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also wikipedia banning < 1265230176 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect wikipedia to go to ipv6 some time < 1265230181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1265230188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, still, the issues are huge < 1265230200 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going home now, anyway < 1265230201 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye everyone < 1265230204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, imagine rate limiting on lots of places < 1265230205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, cya < 1265230209 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265230209 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya scarf < 1265230604 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite polluted /24 when announcing it causes tens of megabits of traffic (on block that should be quiet)... :-/ < 1265231121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 259 seconds < 1265231234 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265231638 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: co'o rodo < 1265231647 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265232073 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often resource exhaustion problems don't feel that pressing until you really hit them, and when you hit them, you hit them _hard_. < 1265232644 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265233049 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265233425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've got CPS with getcontext et al... < 1265233431 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it behaves... *Weirdly*. < 1265233478 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It goes through 3 continuations just fine, before going up to a nulled out stack frame. < 1265233533 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, a nulled stack frame. < 1265233806 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry I ate your stack frame. < 1265233809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hungry. < 1265234489 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it is in fact a stack fram that was valid. < 1265234496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just somehow gets nulled out. < 1265234506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how. < 1265234810 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would appear to be a result of a too-large new stack... < 1265234813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow. < 1265235104 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... The program changes behavior with normal malloc. < 1265235130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With GC_MALLOC, it computes factorials validly for n in [0..11]. < 1265235147 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With normal malloc, it loops infinitely. < 1265235367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/RNie < 1265235486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :niht < 1265235488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night* < 1265235659 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ni! < 1265235760 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265235808 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm never using getcontext ever again. < 1265235830 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265236022 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265236126 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265238410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265238444 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265239186 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm thinking an imperative function-level language would revolve around three concepts: storage locations (replace atoms), procedures (replace functions), and procedurals (replace functionals). Parameters would always be passed "by reference" -- so procedurals make new procedures by modifying (clobbering) existing procedures. < 1265239593 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265240069 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265240249 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265240721 0 :mquin!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265242283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Then There Were 42. < 1265242648 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. < 1265242657 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we really understand life. < 1265242667 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least conway's version, that is < 1265243009 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boo-yah! < 1265243011 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265243027 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265243048 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conway's life is awesom < 1265243054 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any life-based languages? < 1265243220 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well REDGREEN has a life subset < 1265243311 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265243351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265243357 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a graphical version of REDGREEN somewhere? < 1265243380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea. and cpressey just left. < 1265243392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know he left < 1265243443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you'd want a graphical version of ALPACA, since that's what it's written in < 1265243467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still i dunno < 1265243840 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have a simple text-to-image replacement on top of the ALPACA layer < 1265243866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265243944 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does a nice generic one of those exist? < 1265243989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"no idea" < 1265244304 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like a reasonable project < 1265245292 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265245611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265247260 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265248021 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265249831 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265249978 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265250806 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* If I'm a superstar in a 3xx level class, that reflects badly on the school rather than well on me? < 1265250910 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing ever reflects well on you. :P < 1265250955 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, one of these guys is a professional programmer, and apparently he's struggling < 1265250966 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that that reflects poorly on the teacher < 1265251005 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: What's the class about? < 1265251013 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what school? < 1265251023 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data Structures, but currently we're just doing a Fraction calculator < 1265251030 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUNY Farmingdale < 1265251054 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of the students are complaining about a previous teacher from a 2xx level course < 1265251062 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had the same teacher and agree with those complaints, really < 1265251225 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265251869 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265251922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Professional programmer. Struggling with data structures. < 1265251940 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Data structures, a 3xx level class? < 1265251990 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: what's complaining about a previous teacher got to do with it?> < 1265252011 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, the previous teacher didn't actually teach anything < 1265252019 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265253484 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265254208 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, anyone interested in a program to display a text file with a tile system? < 1265255770 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZABCD < 1265255770 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AKRYPTOS < 1265257313 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265257385 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265257953 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265258726 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265260815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey! : < 1265260816 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265260824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :graaaaacenotes :D < 1265261375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, now they're drilling in minor third < 1265261483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! :D < 1265261546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1265261629 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :::glomp:: < 1265261653 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g...lomp? < 1265261663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pounce huggle < 1265261677 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh alarm clock is making a sound < 1265261684 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY IS THIS MORNING FILLED WITH SOUND < 1265261694 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because today is < 1265261696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOUND DAY < 1265261700 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1265261704 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow that would be cool < 1265261910 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BYE < 1265261911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1265261923 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :byeee < 1265262696 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is rather useful, javascript:as=document.getElementsByTagName("a");for(i=0;i done" part of "code -> commit -> done", and that's fine and pretty much fun (since it means your code gets out into the world), but when you spend minutes, hours or days at a time battling version control then it really ... blows < 1265312404 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving stuff around in a VCS that doesn't do moving, for example < 1265312506 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh heck yeah. Maybe it's just me, but distributed version control seems much more hassle than it's worth. < 1265312540 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think DVCS:es are more modern and thought-through and thus handle larger projects better < 1265312602 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an element of that, sure, but I've never actually seen centralized VC fail badly at handling a large project, either. < 1265312645 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, CVS has the benefit of only having to work at one file at a time :P < 1265312694 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh, CVS implements some of the low-level operations theeee most braindead way possible, takes a few seconds per file to create a branch in some circumstances < 1265312706 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's O(n^2) in the number of existing branches < 1265313083 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. < 1265313126 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think CVS is actually also using a hashtable to do this, but iterating it linearly < 1265313138 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe their "hashtable" is just a list/array < 1265316917 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265317477 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well! Thanks to profiling, I optimized my cache access function, and it now only accounts for 5.9 microseconds of the access time of each web page, instead of 6.3 microseconds! < 1265317660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1265317774 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, 3PM. Time for lunch. < 1265317795 0 :Sgeo|web!~897d6958@gateway/web/freenode/x-wgsneqfhxbsmcdkq JOIN :#esoteric < 1265317798 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1265317813 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idiots in my UNIX class are playing the "penis" game < 1265317883 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds fun!! < 1265317893 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a bit raunchy for a UNIX class < 1265317916 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am I thinking of a different game.. < 1265317925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is afraid to ask < 1265318782 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the penis game < 1265318942 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265318944 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where a group of people say "penis" louder and louder. The person who refuses to say it loses < 1265318990 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol that sounds awesome :D < 1265319009 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the penis mightier < 1265319396 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265319697 0 :Sgeo|web!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1265320195 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265320404 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"OpenStreetMap is a free editable map of the whole world. It is made by people like you." People like me! Maybe they could also start a dating service thing, if they can guarantee something like that. < 1265320462 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are like you in that they are people :P < 1265320508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is insulting to all the non-people who happen to be reading that! < 1265320551 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265320776 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pfft, people < 1265321065 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-178.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265321285 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is made by people who like you." Then they'd be even better suited for starting that dating service, no? < 1265321347 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it is made by people, like you". < 1265321356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is made by people who hate you and are trying to kill you." < 1265321418 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i win because mine was a mom joke < 1265321424 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it is made by norwegians." < 1265321561 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing. < 1265321824 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. < 1265322101 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265322324 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265322564 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265322569 0 :jix!~jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265323108 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265324094 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265324342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suspiciously eyes the box labelled "PROBLEM TOMATOES" < 1265324370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fruit delinquents < 1265324398 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Troblem Pomatoes < 1265324460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find that a spousy loonerism < 1265324519 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orle < 1265324522 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*orly < 1265324538 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0118 999 881 999 119 725... 3 anyway < 1265324549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1265324698 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265324718 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Wareya < 1265324729 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check MATE! < 1265325064 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what would be grand? If there was a scripting language that extended its own traceback/file-inclusion/line-number display when scripts were reading *their* files. < 1265325090 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, there are some complexities to it, but I'm sure they're not insurmountable < 1265325408 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265326277 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265326344 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265327139 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cymonsgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=191.0 < 1265327287 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What game be this? < 1265327316 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cymonsgames.com/asciiportal/ apparently < 1265327359 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks cute. < 1265327933 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawlehcoptahs < 1265328331 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265328914 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oops-sama < 1265328946 0 :oops-sama!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1265330758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265331269 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265331800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265331808 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265331862 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265331953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265336431 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265336810 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sam Hughes responded to me! *squee* < 1265336934 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sam Hughes? < 1265336968 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The qntm.org guy < 1265336982 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine Structure, the Ed stories, Geocide < 1265337160 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, he does things outside of everything2? < 1265337224 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265337286 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that the Fine Structure stuff, and I bet a good amount of his other fiction, is on both e2 and qntm < 1265337360 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265337394 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265338073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: www.qntm.org . Read. < 1265338089 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i can't, jibreel < 1265338224 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265338248 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyekulturny < 1265338256 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got it bookmarked now, though < 1265338819 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265340014 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265342435 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265343600 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265343784 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-238-148.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265344097 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265346689 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@174-16-214-234.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265346750 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265347030 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265348431 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265349918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do i keep reading john gabriel's knols < 1265349924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hurts so much < 1265350005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, fiction? < 1265350017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch got to run bbl < 1265350323 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265350335 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1265350341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265350341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thems=[] < 1265350341 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like i spoke with one of you at one point < 1265350348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about some sort of graph transformation < 1265350354 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://knol.google.com/k/are-real-numbers-uncountable# < 1265350369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :famous fiction < 1265350371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was you, oklopol, i dont know < 1265350453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but basically it was a transformation of a rooted graph into a tree where like < 1265350476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "daughter" nodes of the any given node were all of the nodes that the original node in the graph was connected to by an edge < 1265350677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that sound familiar to anyone? < 1265350925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265350932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't recall any use for it < 1265351040 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-58.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265351057 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats it called < 1265351059 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me, please < 1265351060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1265351108 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a treificated graph, obviously < 1265351110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you -> < 1265351114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1265351119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooo < 1265351126 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to know what its called! :( < 1265351215 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265351239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! :( < 1265352417 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265353165 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265353496 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@174-16-78-170.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265353516 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1265353573 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265354039 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-6-168.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265354583 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265356127 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265356799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265356800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265357731 0 :Slereah!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265360774 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1265360805 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265361136 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265361759 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265362311 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265362342 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265364317 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265364508 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265364508 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265364552 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265364563 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265364620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklopol, fiction? < 1265364631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fiction, it's just that the author doesn't know this < 1265364674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hasn't read them but there was a post about it on good math/bad math yesterday < 1265367147 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265367868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265369296 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265371791 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265372880 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265373138 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265374203 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there something wrong with me? < 1265374212 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted to write a program, and decided Java was the best language for it < 1265374234 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1265374275 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far it's going rather well < 1265374290 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although this confirms my suspicions that Java absolutely needs an IDE specifically designed for it < 1265374309 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: What kind of program? < 1265374323 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think a java project of mine has ever failed < 1265374324 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I'm trying to write a ttyrec player that's better than any of the current ones < 1265374326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a GUI one < 1265374331 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've just done semisimple uni projects < 1265374335 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with all sorts of interesting features < 1265374337 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in it < 1265374397 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java doesn't allow much crazy stuff. But the reflection part is really nice... < 1265374407 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not trying to do crazy stuff, though < 1265375485 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much the only crazy thing I've seen Java allow is having a class, variable and function of the same name < 1265375805 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most crazy thing I've done so far is subclassed BasicSliderUI and overloaded the method that paints the background < 1265375809 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as to have a slider with a custom background < 1265376658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why's that crazy? < 1265376727 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't really, but it was a pain to figure out what to do < 1265381156 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265381350 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265381405 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265381423 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265381497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's fiction, it's just that the author doesn't know this <-- ouch! < 1265381523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : although this confirms my suspicions that Java absolutely needs an IDE specifically designed for it <--- iirc there are plenty < 1265381545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the only ones I can remember the names of right now are eclipse and netbeans < 1265381564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and what the hell is that program? < 1265381568 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are plenty, I'm using netbeans because it's what I'm supposed to teach here < 1265381574 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a ttyrec player < 1265381583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the crap < 1265381590 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the what the crap for? < 1265381604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that java would be best for that... < 1265381617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265381617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, is ttyrec a text format? Or binary? < 1265381620 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary < 1265381630 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's meant to be portable, cross-platform, GUI and have loads of features < 1265381632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to parse? < 1265381646 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to parse, hard to interpret < 1265381660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also fun: jaunty kernel *source* update, and modules, but no the actual kernel image itself < 1265381667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it changed patch level number < 1265381669 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the format's incredibly simple, and so is missing most of the particularly useful information, that would be needed to, say, upload < 1265381670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it is called < 1265381672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I noticed that too < 1265381681 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same in karmic, except there was a kernel update the next day < 1265381695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, any bug report for it in jaunty? < 1265381712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah here it is, ran apt-get update again < 1265381848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on arch (for updates): download size: 42.82 MB, installed size: 204.92 MB. Quite good compression. And arch packages are gzipped < 1265381866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't see any obvious "lots of text only" package either < 1265382144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh, conflict on menu.lst < 1265383815 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265384022 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265384022 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1265384057 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1265384058 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265384058 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265384608 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265384625 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265385040 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265385390 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265385390 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1265385427 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265385811 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-1-204.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265386536 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@a230227.upc-a.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265386574 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265387020 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265387312 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah at the netbeans update dialog < 1265387327 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it concatenates the licences of all the updates that are being applied, and asking if you agree < 1265387344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I'm having to scroll through something like 10 copies each of the GPL and CDDL to see if there's anything else buried in there < 1265387460 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265387469 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, there are other licences there too < 1265387474 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 copies of the Apache licence so far < 1265387481 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. A need for "license de-duping." < 1265387495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a modified BSD3 which bans using a particular name for derivative works < 1265387512 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Debian actually has that < 1265387512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you got to love the BSD license forking. < 1265387520 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it symlinks all the copies of the GPL to a common location < 1265387545 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'll defeat it by rewording my BSD disclaimer! < 1265387565 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was kind-of scared there'd be a BSD4 in there somewhere < 1265387577 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done about 2/3s, though, and haven't seen one yet < 1265387594 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. Thou shalt not distribute as part of a "Hits of the 90's" compilation. < 1265387652 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, LGPL < 1265387704 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, looks OK < 1265387716 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ridiculous thing is, that accepting an open-source licence agreement is generally irrelevant anyway < 1265387765 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that most of the conditions only apply once you copy it or modify it -- yes. < 1265387769 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: what's wrong with bsd4? i am ignorant on that topic < 1265387777 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: the "odious advertising clause" < 1265387790 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, they still make new versions of the unmodified? < 1265387793 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the fourth clause of the original BSD licence basically required credit in documentation and on startup < 1265387801 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought they were gone from the new versions < 1265387803 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are < 1265387806 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD3 is newer than BSD4 < 1265387809 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean the bsd 4clause < 1265387811 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3-clause BSD, 4-clause bSD) < 1265387812 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*BSD < 1265387813 0 :whtspc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265387826 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, heh < 1265387832 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some people, like the currently missing ehird, even advocate 2-clause < 1265387955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether to use an existing Java terminal implementation, or roll their own < 1265388008 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rolling my own has the advantage of being able to put various customisations in, like starting halfway through the ttyrec < 1265388028 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and marking unknown positions with a "unknown" symbol until they're known < 1265388116 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265388745 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265389783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265390609 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265390679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: The GNU opinion on "accepting license agreements" is "You must agree in order to use the rights given in the license. Using or installing this software is not one of those rights, so no need to agree with the license." < 1265390689 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That also appears to be the opinion by most sane people. < 1265390690 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: agreed < 1265390786 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265391313 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265392716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sooo.... SUSv3 (POSIX) implies the presence of a C99 compiler. And C99 implies the availability of SUSv3 system calls. Therefore C99 <-> POSIX? < 1265392767 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, C99 implies the availability of a small subset of SUSv3 system calls. < 1265392783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's only because that's how you *implement* stdio.h. < 1265392797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 does not imply, say, fork. < 1265392865 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to uninstall this transformation pack thing < 1265392974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Interesting. And somewhat of a relief. < 1265393029 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different C standards have started taking features from the others, which is not exactly surprising < 1265393058 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, I don't suppose you know of any sort of rough quick guide as to which headers are C99 and which are POSIX. < 1265393088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a list of C99 headers at the end of C99 itself < 1265393098 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1265393099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to find one of the public drafts (the actual standard is behind a paywall) < 1265393111 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have a link somewhere... < 1265393175 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you have to pay to see a standard? < 1265393186 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: that cheeses me off too < 1265393207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/wg14/www/docs/n1124.pdf < 1265393215 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at annex B in the table of contents < 1265393232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :annex B summarises the contents of the headers, the table of contents says which they are < 1265393248 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although note that for a POSIX build, some things are added by POSIX to the standard C headers, just to annoy you < 1265393250 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/WG14/www/docs/n1256.pdf -- heh, the date at the top is "Septermber 7, 2007" < 1265393281 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would presumably be a different draft of the same standard < 1265393296 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yours is newer than mine, probably works better < 1265393329 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB restart home my comp survives < 1265393379 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, WG14 made their reasoning behind C99 public: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/C99RationaleV5.10.pdf < 1265393505 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265393554 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265393663 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265393768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still a bit confused why -std=c89 disallows you from using POSIX things, then, but I suppose it is another case of just annoying me < 1265393833 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's not "disallow", it's "prevent compatibility problems" < 1265393861 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's perfectly legal to have a function called _exit() in a file that includes stdlib.h in C89, for instance < 1265393866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265393869 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try that in POSIX, and you'll get an error < 1265393880 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then it is "disallow", but it's for a good reason. < 1265393885 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265393904 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the C99 equivalent is called _Exit(), which isn't allowed in C89 because it starts with an underscore and a capital letter) < 1265393925 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265394008 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think every personal project I've written in C99, relies on C99 only because it makes some POSIX call. Mostly nanosleep(). < 1265394047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, assuming that's POSIX and not some BSDism or something that just happens to be widely supported, would have to double check that. < 1265394103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX standardisation is a mess < 1265394104 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it is. ok. < 1265394119 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nanosleep is in POSIX, I mean) < 1265394147 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how long it will be before a picosleep becomes necessary < 1265394160 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eerm < 1265394180 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computers aren't fast enough for it to be useful yet < 1265394196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265394211 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've certainly written real-time Linux applications which grabbed hold of the scheduler and used carefully timed pauses to communicate with an external device in bursts < 1265394212 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eeerrm no, not yet. < 1265394251 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this was for an embedded system; telling the scheduler not to interrupt your process at all until it tells the other processes it's their turn is not the sort of thing you regularly do on a desktop OS) < 1265394312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AmigaOS forbid() and permit() come to mind. < 1265394364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cooperative multitasking is so nice. < 1265394394 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to stop appearing in XML < 1265394436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I dealt with it back when I was writing windows 3.1 programs < 1265394479 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Linux has a cooperative-multitasking scheduler, but you need to be root, and include an unusual library, to be able to trigger it < 1265394490 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1265394512 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :source of http://www.stubhub.com/all-cities/unc-tickets/ < 1265394513 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265394966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should probably eat food at some point < 1265395100 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265395372 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A program whose output is affected by the value returned by a call to setlocale might not be strictly conforming. If the only way in which the result affects the final output is by determining, directly or indirectly, whether to make another call to setlocale, then the program remains strictly conforming; but if the result affects the output in some other way, then it does not." < 1265395418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how nicely tortuous < 1265395583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have said torturous < 1265395635 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something nicely eso about a function whose only purpose is to determine whether to call it again < 1265395638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell < 1265395650 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, setlocale has side effects, meaning that it isn't quite so purely beautiful < 1265395654 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it would be worse if it didn't have .. < 1265395655 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265395771 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, among other things, that means it's an undecidable problem to tell whether a C99 program is strictly conforming < 1265395801 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make a turing machine of locales, or something < 1265395834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how most undecidable problems suggest Turing-complete esolangs < 1265395837 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(admittedly, you can do that /anyway/ in C99, but doing it with locales would be funny) < 1265395845 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the setlocale tarpit! < 1265395857 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265395866 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I read an article about cache effects recently < 1265395870 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was wondering about making an esolang out of those < 1265395886 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. multiple threads each of which can only store finite data each, but you can have arbitrarily many < 1265395906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only way they can communicate is by accessing lots of memory really quickly to change the relative running speeds of the others < 1265395936 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could work, as a design... < 1265396002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl -- need food. < 1265396007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be horrendously nonportable, but I think that's a plus < 1265396074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happened to the deliberately slow language? < 1265396084 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SLOBOL? < 1265396092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people just forgot about it, it wasn't particularly interesting < 1265396256 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265396261 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Accidental hibernation is fun! < 1265396279 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not SLOBOL < 1265396309 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one olsner was making, with the conversion between base e and pi, or whatever < 1265396323 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265396328 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about that one < 1265396383 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265396462 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How easy/difficult would it be for someone with a weak grasp of Javascript to attempt to fix a WebKit specific issue with a website? < 1265396488 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not massively difficult, although the problem might not be in the javascript < 1265396496 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it rather depends on what the issue is, I'd imagine < 1265396506 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will attempt it < 1265396516 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe make a Greasemonkey script < 1265396540 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be the savior of everyone at my school who loves Chrome and refuses to use Firefox or IE or IETab just for this specific site < 1265396559 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That set includes me. I doubt that it includes anyone else, but still) < 1265397089 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265397112 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm < 1265397178 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a certain name for a higher-order function which takes two lists of the same length, and applies a function to the first element in both lists, the second, and so on? < 1265397192 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then returns the result as a new list < 1265397199 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zipWith < 1265397204 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, thanks < 1265397242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! < 1265397257 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meeeeeeeeeee < 1265397273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you actually recognize that description of a graph-to-tree transformation i described last night? < 1265397315 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Transitive closure? < 1265397328 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: uh.. i dont _think_ so but who knows < 1265397348 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a DAG, anyway. < 1265397372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a transformation that took a rooted graph and turned it into a tree where the daughters of each node N were the nodes N' that N was connected to by an edge in the graph < 1265397399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265397412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if your graph was { ab, bc, ac } rooted at a, the tree node for a would have tree nodes for a b and c as its daughters < 1265397425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, not transitive then. I thought you'd get all N' that could be reached from N. < 1265397430 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nodes for b would have a b c as its daughters, etc. < 1265397443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds more like a spanning tree -- sort of the reverse of transitive closure. < 1265397448 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a spanning tree huh < 1265397452 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome! avast has a virus-scanning screensaver < 1265397459 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not exactly, but similar < 1265397469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not a spanning tree at all :( < 1265397508 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...union of all possible spanning trees? :) < 1265397521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265397522 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265397525 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then! < 1265397531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the resulting tree is infinitely large < 1265397551 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265397659 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I run a screensaver at the same time XP turns off my monitor, will the screensaver still run? < 1265397662 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So by most definitions of "tree" it's actually not a tree :) < 1265397677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it SORT of is :P < 1265397678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely nothing to do with a spanning tree if you ask me < 1265397692 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The screensaver has side-effects) < 1265397732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know the name for the structure, but really it is the exact same mathematical object in some sense < 1265397744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: same as what? < 1265397756 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if you just care about how things are connected to each other < 1265397759 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds more like the closure of all infinite paths through the graph to me, now. < 1265397769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: as the original graph < 1265397777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, thats part of the point actually < 1265397790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont remember who first showed it to me, someone here i think < 1265397806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what does "closure" mean there? < 1265397808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and at the time i thought, gosh thats useless isnt it < 1265397826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ive actually realized that its immensely important to something im working on < 1265397827 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe that's a stupid question < 1265397833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well, union over a countable set, i think. < 1265397856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :countable set of what? or is that your definition for closure? < 1265397891 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Countable set of infinite paths, in this case. < 1265397904 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I hope that's countable :) < 1265397946 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not; and what's the union of paths? do you take the set of nodes from each path and take the union of them? < 1265397952 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll get the connected component as a set < 1265397996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider a graph that forms a triangle, everytime you move you have two choices, now consider reals in binary representation < 1265398023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are good questions; I don't have answers, since I only started thinking about this 10 minutes ago. :P < 1265398103 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closure usually means you have some set of things, and you have something you can do, and if the set is "closed under" the thing you can do, it's a closure of that thing < 1265398128 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, can you have closures of uncountable sets? < 1265398141 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what!! < 1265398165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy! :o < 1265398166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topological closures are sets that are closed under convergent sequences < 1265398175 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology is all about uncountability < 1265398190 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is that a "yes"? < 1265398201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1265398246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if i understood what you meant < 1265398272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"can you take the closure of an uncountably large set w.r.t. some operation" < 1265398332 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so what' < 1265398346 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One sec. < 1265398365 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's left is to define the operation. < 1265398392 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have a graph with n nodes, and for each node there's a (potentially) uncountable set of infinite paths that starts at it. < 1265398408 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a truth < 1265398442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And each path is a countable list of nodes, is it fair to say that? < 1265398467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a path in a graph is a function from N to the set of nodes, imo < 1265398476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinite graph that is < 1265398505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if f is the path, you have for all n that the edge (f(n), f(n+1)) is in the graph < 1265398516 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, fair enough, but can it be represented as a countable list of nodes? < 1265398542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's a surjection from N isn't there :P < 1265398570 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the graph I'm talking about it's infinite (yet). < 1265398576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if we define a path as a function from N to the nodes, then clearly there will only be |N| nodes in there < 1265398593 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I was under the impression that the origiinal thing was to be applied to finite graphs. I could be wrong. < 1265398594 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... yes < 1265398601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, most likely < 1265398609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simpler that way, anyway :) < 1265398631 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite graphs are sexy < 1265398655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coding theory is one of my current obsessions < 1265398714 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... to sketch the operation for closure I'm thinking of... in a finite graph g: for each set of paths starting at node n: for each node m in the list of nodes in the path: replace m with the set of paths that start at m in g < 1265398723 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's sloppy, but hopefully it captures the idea < 1265398750 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're actually making copies of the nodes in g < 1265398766 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is the result must be a tree < 1265398776 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, I don't see that part :) < 1265398791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a closure is usually the closure of a set < 1265398799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't "see" it? < 1265398800 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, ok, maybe I do. < 1265398801 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It < 1265398813 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a tree, because you're making copies of the nodes from g < 1265398830 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have no cycles. < 1265398856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the thing is if you have a finite thing, and your operations only give you more finite things if their parameters are finite, then the closure will be *finite* < 1265398863 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the objects in it will be finite < 1265398887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, true. If the original graph in this case is a tree (no cycles thus no infinite paths,) the result of applying this... whatsit... is finite. < 1265398888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrarily big, sure, but finite things are usually closed under operations < 1265398898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "finiteness" is < 1265398918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without cycles the result contains infinite paths < 1265398921 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can return < 1265398929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay, directed plus no loops and maybe < 1265398983 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If "without cycles the result contains infinite paths" then I don't understand the construction, sorry :) < 1265399009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, if you have an undirected graph, then every edge is a loop < 1265399014 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, undirected. < 1265399018 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mrrrh :) < 1265399033 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know, but that's why "well, okay, directed plus no loops and maybe" < 1265399043 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1265399045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :universal covering graph! < 1265399046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case no one said no loops < 1265399054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the closest ive seen to it, oklopol < 1265399062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact its EXACTLY what i want < 1265399075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minus reflexing edges < 1265399081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats ok, because thats dependent on the graph < 1265399183 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just for trees says wp < 1265399198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to imagine the usefulness of an infinite tree in a practical application, but then, I'm not a mathematician :) < 1265399202 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it also gives a definition that works without that assumption < 1265399203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1265399231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: infinite just means you don't have to care it's finite. < 1265399243 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Indeed. < 1265399247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extendable < 1265399256 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even code this up as some sort of lazy generator... < 1265399261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my back.... hurts... < 1265399263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: actually its for any connected graph < 1265399274 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: its totally lazy, yeah < 1265399286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For any connected graph G, it is possible to construct its universal covering graph.[1] This is an instance of the more general universal cover concept from topology; the topological requirement that a universal cover be simply connected translates in graph-theoretic terms to a requirement that it be acyclic and connected; that is, a tree. < 1265399290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what i meant < 1265399295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also read < 1265399297 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"but it also gives a definition that works without that assumption" < 1265399298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, it doesnt even have to be lazy, since as oklopol points out, the universal covering graph is essentially just the graph itself < 1265399322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atleast as far as you can tell locally < 1265399328 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wellll... you're kind of "looking at it lazily" :) < 1265399330 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah... and god my back hurts < 1265399344 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265399350 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i prefer to think of it as a graph iterator < 1265399376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"From this node, as far as I can tell by looking at my immediate edges, I am in fact surrounded by an infinite tree!!" < 1265399376 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than a graph generator < 1265399409 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to apply this to Hunt the Wumpus somehow. < 1265399558 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe in wumpi < 1265399630 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265399770 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265399891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265400508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um you guys, this is really quite simple: the vertices of your tree are the _paths_ from the root of your original graph. < 1265400529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I was trying to say, in a painful, pseudo-mathematical way. < 1265400570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well then. < 1265400663 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, and I realize now I was possibly saying something much uglier. (Every node of the tree would have an uncountable number of branches. That's overkill.) < 1265400683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1265400687 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's the answer to how to represent it as a closure? < 1265400696 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it the answer to what its name is? < 1265400711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these were the two questions that were asked, not sure of others < 1265400719 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the answer to how to define it easily... < 1265400726 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it's an answer, but it's a succinct way to describe it. < 1265400727 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265400787 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know that was an issue, anyway probably the tree doesn't actually contain the infinite paths, prolly came up with that myself < 1265400801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't have augur's original q < 1265400820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would be a pretty weird tree :P < 1265400835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: unless your name is John Gabriel ;D < 1265400842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265400902 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the infinite paths would be separate connected components of the graph wouldn't they < 1265400913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean components of one node < 1265400925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i guess we'd need some sort of definition first < 1265400938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i meant finite paths < 1265400951 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265400988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know you did, but i didn't, i said there'd be an uncountable amount of paths, because for some reason i thought the infinite paths would be there too < 1265400988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with the right topology, you could have the finite paths converge at infinite ones < 1265401008 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265401027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a graph's connectedness is just topological connectedness? < 1265401049 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you include the edges as lines, so < 1265401066 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean they're pretty discrete things... < 1265401068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwice the vertices seem somewhat isolated < 1265401105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the finite paths would form a discrete topology, while the infinite paths they converge to would be the non-isolated points < 1265401120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaiu, really you could only define open sets sensibly as connected components, or discrete topology. < 1265401126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265401128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265401149 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers when his math teacher (in 6th grade) put a question on our tests "Do your socks have holes in them" < 1265401167 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was one of those joke questions, where the correct answer was that yes, all of them do < 1265401176 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in a topological sense, they do not < 1265401209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so our open sets would be generated by {x} for all nodes x, and for all infinite paths, any of their infinite suffices < 1265401217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually for an acyclic graph you also have some non-hausdorff options, you can let the closure of a vertex be all the vertices reachable from it < 1265401233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hm scratch acyclic, that works anyhow i think) < 1265401272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: unless you consider them complex entanglements of strings! < 1265401292 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooh, sock theory, is there a complete categorization of topological socks? < 1265401336 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: err, do you mean taking as closed sets the connected components in the graph sense? < 1265401351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact there is iirc a direct correspondence between finite T0 spaces and trees < 1265401360 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265401373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh no, i'm assuming a directed graph < 1265401376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1265401380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/trees/forests/ < 1265401391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no wait < 1265401410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in fact there is iirc a direct correspondence between finite T0 spaces and finite partial orders < 1265401426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that might be forests too < 1265401430 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what exactly would the topology be? < 1265401450 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1265401456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265401461 0 :whtspc!~whtspc@a230227.upc-a.chello.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1265401476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :closed sets = for all nodes x all vertices reachable from x? < 1265401482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265401485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah cool < 1265401492 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265401500 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sexy stuff < 1265401509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also make that the definition of open, well that's just reversing the graph really < 1265401533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for finite spaces the axioms for open sets == the axioms for closed sets < 1265401572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, good point < 1265401682 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1265401814 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402183 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-241-129.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402389 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265402435 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually the first time I've ever seen topology and graph theory linked in a coherent way. Not that I really understand what oerjan said... < 1265402519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265402525 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1265402562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway limits require a topology, and linking finite and infinite things in a sensible way is usually done via limits < 1265402580 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of some sort) < 1265402622 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@97-118-213-241.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402643 0 :ehird_!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-luqigrvloptgijgd JOIN :#esoteric < 1265402649 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zero days since last ehird sighting. < 1265402650 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like it's harder to find literature on discrete topology -- I got the impression topologists don't consider it as interesting as the other kinds. Ditto infinite groups (finite groups are so much more exciting!) < 1265402658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hug tackles ehird < 1265402658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hi ehird_. < 1265402679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're alive! < 1265402691 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it doesn't feel it. I can't believe my life at the moment. < 1265402694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello ehird_, i'm just as excited about your arrival as the others < 1265402710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1265402722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: discrete topology means every set is open, which essentially just means you have a set. < 1265402752 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've disappeared this long before for similar reasons; maybe I was just especially awesome before disappearing. < 1265402769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topology of a space is a family of subsets of the powerset of the objects in the space (to put it very simply), if you have all the subsets, there's really no need to even have them explicitly. < 1265402776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last ehird_ sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265402783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the book would basically be about set theory. < 1265402805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite vs finite groups is a completely different matter < 1265402818 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anyone wants me to explain, I will, in /msg. I don't want it to be logged. < 1265402831 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Gotcha. < 1265402843 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265402866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by which I mean "I see", in case there was any ambiguity) < 1265402882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think there was < 1265402915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "gotcha" is easier to interpret as "i have no idea what you mean" < 1265402924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than "i see" which is more neutral < 1265402938 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's the "Gotcha!" as in "Aha! Now you're trapped!" < 1265402951 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I didn't mean. < 1265403004 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i guess < 1265403055 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the topology of a space is a family of subsets of the powerset of the objects in the space" just seems like something you might want to not try to understand. or maybe it's just me < 1265403064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1265403070 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's even wrong < 1265403073 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's retry < 1265403093 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topology of a space is a *subset* of the powerset of the set objects in the space < 1265403140 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly i couldn't handle such a long string of information < 1265403178 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have in my head some fuzzy notion of "discrete topology" that isn't the same as the definition by that name (which I did read and understand once, a long time ago now,) and I get them mixed up. It's coming back to me now, a bit. More obvious why it's not terribly interesting. < 1265403243 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if http://codepad.org/UCmJrhSx is a good explanation to someone who's not in Computer Programming < 1265403277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, people in CS throw around terms like "network topology", but from all that I tried to read in actual topology literature, it sounds like a minor abuse of the term "topology". Network topology is far more like graph theory, no? < 1265403306 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology < 1265403375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toplology < 1265403382 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: looks fairly decent < 1265403449 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: might be worth pointing out that statements can only go inside functions < 1265403774 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265403800 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265405012 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1265405114 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi coppro. < 1265405151 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's back! < 1265405159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He liveth! < 1265405182 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Methinks I should link you both to the log of #esoteric-priv so you know what the hell's up. < 1265405209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1265405218 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265405227 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that's logged. < 1265405231 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not easily googleable. < 1265405238 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what, I don't care. < 1265405275 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird why did you leave < 1265405280 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In true utilitarian form, I'm sorry for dragging you into this and probably making you sadder as a result. < 1265405286 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell is priv < 1265405288 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Click the link. It wasn't voluntary. < 1265405296 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric-priv as in private, I created it just to relay that. < 1265405301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1265405312 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o is pretty much perfect. < 1265405330 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd suspect myself of hallucinating all this if it weren't so fucking gritty. < 1265405334 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are you okay now? < 1265405346 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I'm still not free. < 1265405353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, that's perhaps the most retarded way of treating... Anything. < 1265405360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly Asperger's. < 1265405362 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree with pikhq :( < 1265405397 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck < 1265405404 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird are you in UK < 1265405414 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265405422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the expected reaction from removing an autistic patient from something they're obsessed about ranges from passive-agressive fucking with the doctors or having a meltdown. Don't fuck with that shit.) < 1265405437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/or/to/ < 1265405457 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird so when will you be allowed to resume? < 1265405494 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Resume what, exactly? Sorry if I'm not being so good at communication, I've had no meaningful form of it for god knows how long. < 1265405518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean like not be detained by these people? < 1265405533 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: When is the soonest that you can get the fuck out of Britain? :P < 1265405542 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I... /msg time, I don't want this to be logged. < 1265405557 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: contact your media < 1265405599 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I've been suggested that multiple times tonight. I'm seriously considering it now. < 1265405621 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I've heard, the British media can be especially harsh < 1265405648 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have no idea. < 1265405676 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" < 1265405745 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_'s back! < 1265405760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: When the hell did that mess start, anyways? < 1265405760 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265405779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thought we weren't going to talk about this in this channel. < 1265405784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cough* < 1265405786 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Its origins reach back a year... or two, I don't know... this whole unit thing (the place is a "unit") started, um, late last year. < 1265405786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION missed that < 1265405792 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like say september or slightly earlier. < 1265405798 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I really can't care any more. < 1265405804 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they find the logs, so be it. < 1265405856 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, I'm seriously considering contacting someone myself about this :/ < 1265405873 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, please ask me first... < 1265405907 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265405926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're clearly smart enough to know what they're doing is bad for you < 1265405950 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Britain's handling of mental health issues is just royally fucked up in general... < 1265405962 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently < 1265405997 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heard one too many horror stories from British friends. < 1265406012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... One to many? Try far too many. Anyways. < 1265406021 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What really scares me is that even his parents can't stop them < 1265406034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Big Brother knows best! < 1265406047 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cuddles the CoRaF < 1265406108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pulls up the Convention on the Rights of the Child... < 1265406126 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Child's rights, a better punchline I've not heard. < 1265406166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: It's law in all countries other than the US and Somalia. < 1265406191 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in the modern world, in practice, children have basically no rights. < 1265406258 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully, that's not the case everywhere < 1265406260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not to belittle the situation in any way -- I'm a bit surprised at how unsurprised I am at this. < 1265406297 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It surprised me only because I was the one it was happening to. < 1265406301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darned thing doesn't allow parents to veto the state. < 1265406305 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No belittling taken. < 1265406307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a freaking useless document. < 1265406339 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case anyone doesn't know (cpressey might not, for instance) I'm 14 < 1265406386 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know if there's any legal recourse your parents can take? < 1265406421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(besides seeking asylum elsewhere) < 1265406451 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in the courts I suppose they could preemptively battle sectioning; the outcome of that would, I assume, be either me being sectioned or a confirmation that they would not be allowed to section me unless my situation changed significantly. < 1265406477 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The prospect of the outcome being me being sectioned (I already stopped attending once, a second rebellion and they would not trust me at all) makes me extremely wary of that option. < 1265406507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "sectioned" mean? < 1265406523 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Institutionalised. < 1265406551 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265406560 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it that you're out now? < 1265406580 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the weekends. I get weekends home. That was one of the things they threatened not to give me if I was sectioned. < 1265406583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Monday-Friday < 1265406585 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*weekend < 1265406586 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265406620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: If I were you, I'd be contacting the press and seeking asylum. < 1265406621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to stay there overnight ?? < 1265406716 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes. < 1265406732 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not right < 1265406746 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am very sorry for you being in this horrible situation < 1265406764 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you < 1265406797 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this is seriously awful :( < 1265406814 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't trust the media about anything, I am not sure if that would be to your advantage or not? < 1265406824 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1265406829 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They certainly generate massive publicity. < 1265406839 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a wreck right now, I guess I've been bottling this up for weeks... < 1265406839 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Publicity is likely to be in your favor < 1265406847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not for certain < 1265406854 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just hit me how insane this all is... < 1265406859 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would take institutionalization over publicity... < 1265406990 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll go get some coke before someone notices i'm insane and removes that freedom -> < 1265407012 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least they are not shooting him up on insulin to make him gain weight... :-/ < 1265407021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I count myself glad that I'm in the US, where our mental health system almost does not exist. :P < 1265407025 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think this should be anything but a last resort, but looking at the papers, I think you'd qualify for refugee status to Canada. < 1265407041 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canada's nice, but yes, last resort. < 1265407050 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If moving I'd much rather do it the regular way if at all possible. < 1265407056 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about elsewhere, because you don't qualify under the Convention < 1265407072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Just straight-up moving there is pretty easy for you, though. < 1265407078 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure lucky that you guys are clever. < 1265407082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, Commonwealth. < 1265407104 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Europe is the most likely place to move to < 1265407110 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dead easy to move around the EU < 1265407113 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265407136 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was mostly looking at Canadian immigration law to satisfy my own curiosity < 1265407171 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for this guys you have no idea how much this means to me, fuck it i'm descending into cliche land < 1265407190 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry about that :P < 1265407205 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265407234 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing's for sure. It'd have taken a hell of a long eternity for anyone to guess this when I said I was only on sporadically because my life's fucked up < 1265407254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought your mom said no computer < 1265407254 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. It's better for you to come out, because now we can be worried about you if you disappear again < 1265407256 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1265407266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously) < 1265407278 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mother isn't stupid. :) < 1265407291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know, but that was my first thought < 1265407293 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, I almost forgot! I'm gay. Joking :p < 1265407298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, the coek < 1265407301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265407309 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I'd care < 1265407359 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was our bet about just girls? < 1265407400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1265407434 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'd say your Article 5 right under the European Convention on Human Rights is being violated < 1265407435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if it was just about girls, then i'd totally be against you being homosexual < 1265407463 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Coke? Wanting to damage liver? :-) < 1265407479 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ehird_ < 1265407482 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Which one's that? < 1265407484 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by coke i mean the blackish drink, or did you mean that as well? < 1265407495 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: liberty and security of person ("liberty" being the key bit) < 1265407513 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes. < 1265407519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damages liver? < 1265407526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ah, right. < 1265407531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what have you been reading < 1265407556 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_5_of_the_European_Convention_on_Human_Rights < 1265407562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a violation of the Article 3 of the Universal Decleration of Human Rights. < 1265407587 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM (as introduction). < 1265407602 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but the Universal Declaration does not have legal force in the UK < 1265407612 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the European Convention has direct legal force < 1265407621 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:03] ehird: I'd say your Article 5 right under the European Convention on Human Rights is being violated < 1265407625 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes. < 1265407634 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"e. the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts or vagrants;" fits anyone < 1265407637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes it does. < 1265407647 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq it does? < 1265407666 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I'd imagine though that they'd have to be told for what, though < 1265407668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Only Somalia and the US have *not* ratified it. < 1265407704 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean the Convention on the Rights of the Child? < 1265407720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Right, that was ratified. < 1265407731 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Declaration is just that -- not enforced at all. < 1265407733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thinko. :/ < 1265407733 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265407754 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the UK Human Rights Act of 1998 directly puts the European Convention into force < 1265407762 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Its the sugar in the coke that does the damage... < 1265407804 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: What kind of lies are you spreading about there being sugar in Coke??? That, my friend, is nothing but genuine high-fructose corn syrup! < 1265407833 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: marry me. < 1265407863 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Sugar and HFCS are pretty much the same health-wise (i.e. nasty). < 1265407907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, that's what we Americans do to protect our precious bodily fluids instead of ratifying meaningless pfft declarations of pfft. Also, fluoride in tap water, and mercury in fillings. < 1265407955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Not really. < 1265407975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, I'm actually a Canadian. But if I stay here long enough I'll eventually turn into one of them... < 1265407976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: HFCS encourages greater consumption. < 1265407999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our obsession with corn syrup is part of *why* Americans eat so damned much. < 1265408004 0 :[newbie]!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265408043 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sugar + Refined grains => Trouble. That has been seen over and over again. < 1265408047 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265408064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. HFCS is just more trouble than straight sugar. < 1265408087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i'm wanting coke more and more by the minute, have to get some before watching more -> < 1265408119 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: If you need to talk seriously about anything, I'm here, and I suspect that most of the rest of the channel will be too < 1265408129 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you. < 1265408130 0 :[newbie]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265408134 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this not serious? :-) < 1265408142 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is 100% serious :) < 1265408160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does the 100% serious dance < 1265408161 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I will most likely need advice very soon... < 1265408172 0 :[newbie]!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265408176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Hmm. As a Commonwealth citizen, you are *nearly* a citizen of Canada already.... < 1265408179 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same here, but I probably can't be as helpful < 1265408197 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265408204 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: if I moved to canada how easy would it be for the uk to retrieve me < 1265408218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As in, I'm willing to listen, not that I need help) < 1265408223 0 :[newbie]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1265408226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Non-trivial. < 1265408246 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get refugee status (and as I said, I believe you would qualify), very difficult < 1265408279 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure that escaping is in your best intrest? if you cooperate then it would presumably just be a finite amount of time wasted by this < 1265408293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you get refugee status, there is but one way for the UK to retrieve you... < 1265408295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :War. < 1265408310 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad UK loves going to war... < 1265408345 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without refugee status, though? < 1265408355 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'm almost entirely sure. < 1265408367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Depends. < 1265408374 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At what level of government are these actions being done? < 1265408407 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, the NHS. Nothing's actually being "forced" on me, they're just saying they will force me if I don't do it "voluntarily" through the Mental Health Act. < 1265408411 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is law. < 1265408421 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What chemical differences after breaking the alpha linkages there are between Sugar and HFCS than sightly higher amount of fructose (55% vs. 50%) in HFCS? < 1265408439 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comexbot < 1265408441 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would still be pretty difficult < 1265408449 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Careful. Ilari has studied the shit out of nutrition. < 1265408455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NHS can't do jack shit to a foreign resident. < 1265408469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Alas. I should shut up about things I've merely heard about. < 1265408523 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: IIRC, they'd need to convince the higher-ups to try and get Canada to issue an extradition order, which probably wouldn't happen. If they managed to get an order, you could fight it in the legal system on the basis that your rights would be violated < 1265408551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: I think the Crown in Right of Canada could force you back to the UK. Short of that, though, not much. < 1265408561 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about another EU country? < 1265408567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about the EU < 1265408580 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't think that falls under the Prerogative < 1265408599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Mmm. Right. < 1265408603 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would, in any case, still be subject to being fought in the Courts. The Charter is a powerful piece of law. < 1265408625 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quite possibly the strongest piece of human rights law in the world) < 1265408635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: They'd have to find you. < 1265408641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then sue the country you're in at the time. < 1265408656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, you could go a few miles to the next country. :P < 1265408682 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: HFCS is infamous, yes. But it might not be (much) worse than sugar. < 1265408687 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd expect they'd just ignore you if you left < 1265408689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there downsides to refugee status? < 1265408704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's non-trivial to get. < 1265408712 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially compared to just moving. < 1265408728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly compared to moving in the EU... < 1265408737 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, moving in the EU is a breeze comparatively < 1265408743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a matter of just leaving...) < 1265408755 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest trick about refugee status is that you must have left your country already < 1265408823 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't studied "the shit out of nutrion" there are lots of people who know much more. But compared to most ordinary people... < 1265408827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265408897 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that's roughly where I am with programming knowledge. #esoteric is people who know much more. "ordinary people" is all the students in the programming track.. < 1265408924 0 :_MigoMipo_!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265408926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the whole, #esoteric probably contains at least one person who knows more than most ordinary people for nearly any subject < 1265408931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they don't, they know someone who does < 1265408932 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265408941 0 :_MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1265408968 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: In the cyberfuture, #esoteric will be known as the international hub for the intelligentsia. < 1265408994 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has the Magic: the Gathering department covered < 1265408997 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265409000 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Upon those who enter we look at, not with scorn perhaps but with an intense neutrality; and those who ask a question are careful, lest we decide to creatively misinterpret it. < 1265409013 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265409014 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are also, relatedly, known as the international hub of slackers who've never done anything worthwhile anyway. < 1265409024 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265409031 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is going to judge a Pro Tour in two weeks! < 1265409065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, you're a judge? Niceness. < 1265409079 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah! < 1265409081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is merely a guy who knows the rules very well < 1265409082 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, considering everything that's happening, I don't know if you really care, but Fine Structure is complete < 1265409084 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265409087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: got your RA? < 1265409091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which helps when friends do things very, very weird. < 1265409099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ... No. < 1265409105 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should try for it < 1265409113 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: My life is complete once more ;P < 1265409120 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When it comes to programming, it seems that some people are just better as programmers (and it isn't about experience). < 1265409123 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1265409141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(among other things, we have countered a spell by Sharazad, and then using a Ring of Maruf in the subgame to fetch it off the stack.) < 1265409167 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265409174 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it you're mostly old-schoolers then? < 1265409191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just very casual. < 1265409200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means we end up seeing a lot of *everything* going. < 1265409213 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1265409219 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :play EDH! < 1265409286 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got my Reaper King EDH deck right here. < 1265409293 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265409307 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there will be EDH side events at the PT, too bad I don't get to play :( < 1265409475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: So, it seems that in Canada, if you're a refugee you can only be removed from Canada via extradition, if the reason for being a refugee no longer exists, you voluntarily move elsewhere, or you voluntarily become a citizen. < 1265409496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you may apply outside of Canada. < 1265409521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/I-2.5/page-4.html#anchorbo-ga:l_2-gb:l_1 < 1265409557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro has the Magic: the Gathering department covered <<< you're not the only one < 1265409569 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wouldn't peg you as a magic kind of guy < 1265409574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he should bring in a friend who's a magic person < 1265409586 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway guys, um, #esoteric-priv plz, would like to go off the record for some things < 1265409600 0 :whtspc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265409696 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: actually i've played a considerable amount of it, although i suck at it. but i didn't really mean myself < 1265409747 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just meant for this channel < 1265409761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah me too, pikhq, zzo, etc < 1265409776 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: #mtg on EFNet < 1265409831 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265409979 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-25.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265410090 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265410126 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speak of the debbil < 1265410137 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SORRY < 1265410143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean SPEEK of the debbil < 1265410169 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: soon first liter down < 1265410892 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265410990 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I already posted this, but < 1265410991 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://cymonsgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=191.0 < 1265411011 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing complete ascii game, haha < 1265411022 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REDGREEN < 1265411024 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did, but it's still entertaining. < 1265411030 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265411032 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rubicon :) < 1265411039 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Congratulations, you just doubled the lightheartedness of this channel with that one link. :P < 1265411044 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the ontopicness...) < 1265411057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if anyone's tried to put together a list of Turing-complete (or nearly so) computer games. < 1265411061 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the lightheartedness was 0 < 1265411064 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if* < 1265411076 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265411144 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Who knows. < 1265411148 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was something like 1/xkcd. < 1265411163 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265411163 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In case you haven't seen the log, we've been discussing the glorious matter of how fucked up my life is.) < 1265411595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: turing complete computer games? < 1265411638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GoL! < 1265411651 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a game? < 1265411651 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265411655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1265411658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAME of life < 1265411661 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OBVIOUSLY < 1265411678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay i thought you were referring to a possibly existing computer version of the board game < 1265411685 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I know one time I was on here, long ago, people were discussing whether Transportation Tycoon is TC < 1265411692 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so uh are you remotely interested in how fucked up my life is? < 1265411693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess that's an even better joke < 1265411694 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chess is turing ocmplete < 1265411705 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: always! < 1265411708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf claims to have a proof that Rubicon is TC. < 1265411718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wp says chess's extensions to an infinite grid are exponential time, but not tc < 1265411727 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: true! < 1265411728 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa. < 1265411737 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I've also seen Minesweeper called TC, but I'm suspicious < 1265411739 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: And I'm not joking, or doing some emo shit when I say fucked up. < 1265411762 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponential time to do something, i have no idea how exactly these extensions work, probably pretty much anything gives the same results < 1265411771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously AsciiPortal and Robozzle < 1265411800 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no but it was proven NP-complete < 1265411803 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty simple really < 1265411810 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was something called Winter something or something that was like a video game version of CRobots or something < 1265411820 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AsciiPortal is TC? < 1265411828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: exponential time in the size could still mean TC for _infinite_ size < 1265411846 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not sure if it's proven, but suspected at least < 1265411848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suspect that wp really means unbounded, not infinite < 1265411850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes, i guess... < 1265411868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or then it means some sort of extensions to "size n" < 1265411870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea < 1265411875 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can build nand gates into asciiportal levels < 1265411882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wait, so what < 1265411891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're being forced to go to some place? < 1265411892 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are you supposed to "execute" chess? Nondeterministically make every possible move? < 1265411896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? how did this come about? < 1265411957 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I think I answered that in the channel too. let me try and find the log < 1265411969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs ehird_ :( < 1265411974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've often wanted to make a game based on a cross between Befunge and Paradroid, too. That could be TC, it just... doesn't exist. < 1265411975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i think you're normal. and pretty cool. < 1265411978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a bit girly. ;P < 1265412030 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: anyway it came about for complicated reasons... < 1265412034 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't really explain < 1265412040 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can chess be turing complete? I think of [[InfChessPro]] but I don't know if you can assume such things < 1265412050 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have the same question, how to "execute" chess? < 1265412054 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RoboZZle is TC < 1265412071 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Carnage Heart, that's it, not Winter anything < 1265412098 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I can believe that, it has stacks and also sometimes command for change color of a square, too. < 1265412115 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Langton's Ant was implemented in it < 1265412120 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means it's TC, I think? < 1265412125 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: #esoteric-priv if you want to discuss it... < 1265412151 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry if I sound snoopy, but I just want to listen < 1265412167 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's okay. Just don't tell anyone else... < 1265412178 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no problem < 1265412186 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's public enough to anyone in here given the pastie link. < 1265412355 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please show me how Langton's Ant is implemented in it? < 1265412370 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you serious? < 1265412374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I think it's pretty trivial < 1265412378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pretty obvious way to ask whether a game like chess is TC is "what is the result (white/black wins, tie) from a given position with perfect play by both players?" < 1265412382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has got a paint command < 1265412382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence "are you serious" < 1265412387 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just do the obvious thing < 1265412427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you need to encode your computation into the initial position. < 1265412427 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, basically there are commands that exactly correspond to the rules of the ant. < 1265412435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't think you can encode arbitrary diophantine equations in chess < 1265412446 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think that's equivalent to what I said? Nondeterministically make every possible move. < 1265412449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Chess halts given perfect play. < 1265412455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 did that actually help at all? < 1265412455 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you "execute" chess? < 1265412463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, even without perfect play, it must halt. < 1265412478 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq what if you have infinite peices < 1265412506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: we are naturally assuming an infinite extension here < 1265412507 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how come < 1265412511 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :move forwards and backwards forever < 1265412513 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd sell a finite amount on eBay at regular intervals < 1265412514 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 move rule < 1265412516 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh there's probably some dumb-ass limit rule < 1265412519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: 50 move rule. < 1265412519 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chess will always halt if you use 50 move rule < 1265412519 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ding < 1265412530 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have infinite pieces and infinite space, though, you're fine < 1265412534 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265412537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the 50 moves reset every time a pawn moves < 1265412543 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a pawn could keep moving forever < 1265412544 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, given perfect play, such an instance will never happen. < 1265412558 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :threefold repetition wouldn't happen in perfect play < 1265412567 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, let's extend to an infinite chessboard -- but don't drop the 50 move rule! :) < 1265412574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265412586 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's also include every variant piece! < 1265412622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'm pretty sure an infinite chessboard would make it easy to guarantee checkmate. < 1265412642 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even without the 50 rule, the game only has a finite amount of positions, and therefore doesn't allow any computation. < 1265412674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since perfect play aims for checkmate... < 1265412694 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265412696 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is true of course, there is only a finite amount of positions, which is what I was thinking of at first < 1265412736 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is possible some variants might be different, though < 1265412820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you need an unbounded sized board just to say you can handle "input" of arbitrary sizes. < 1265412846 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1265412876 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265412896 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need an unbounded board just to have computation in the mathematical sense. < 1265412927 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265412941 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think you would, but there are variants with unbounded boards. < 1265412947 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the system only allows for a finite amount of initial positions, it is algorithmically trivial to solve absolutely any question about it. < 1265412983 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (board looks like this) { ... } else if (board looks like that) { ... } etc < 1265413079 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I catch your meaning, but I wonder if I can't come up with a counterexample that exploits your choice of words... < 1265413095 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_: Before I go, I'd like to run an idea by you; would you be interested in a program that would provide for a tiled display of ASCII source? < 1265413152 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: impossible! < 1265413187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, hi! < 1265413198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird_, what kept you away before? < 1265413201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome back < 1265413215 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Say I have a 2-symbol UTM, and I say that you can feed it any of the first 600 billion billion prime numbers to it, in binary. Then I ask you to tell me which of those cause the UTM to halt, and which cause it to loop forever. < 1265413222 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265413249 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The system has a finite amount of initial positions... < 1265413264 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but that *is* algorithmically trivial < 1265413288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each of those numbers, it either stops or not < 1265413298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a finite amount of them. < 1265413307 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265413333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be trivial to represent the algorithm, yes, but not to discover the correct one. I guess you meant the former. < 1265413365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, hrrm < 1265413399 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't see a Scroll Lock button on this keyboard < 1265413412 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: just going by the rigorous definition of "algorithmically trivial" < 1265413419 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-nhbizvsprfjpdcgc JOIN :#esoteric < 1265413429 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1265413520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wv! < 1265413521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb* < 1265413527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last ehird sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265413543 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: and an interesting definition of "solve" :) < 1265413574 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly not "answer correctly" < 1265413575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is it not a solution if you can write a O(1) algo for it? ;) < 1265413654 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algo is clearly O(1) (hidden constant 600 billion billion) < 1265413685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oklopol: what are you trying to solve? < 1265413689 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://chessvariants.org/shape.dir/infiniteboard.html < 1265413707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing really < 1265413740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've solved the P=?NP problem, then. It is either yes or no. < 1265413741 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on what the meaning of "trying" is < 1265413770 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the P?=NP problem is algorithmically trivial, yes < 1265413791 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And thus it is solved. < 1265413792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the first thing you hear in a course about computability < 1265413802 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay i see what you mean < 1265413837 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265413846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I assume not for any useful values of solved < 1265413859 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also read about chess variants where the number of rows is 2 times omega and that the number of columns is very infinite < 1265413869 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's maybe a linguistic issue about "solve" versus "has a solution"? < 1265413879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i don't think i've said anything incorrect < 1265413904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algorithmically trivial to solve != possible to solve < 1265413919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, you have recently returned? < 1265413928 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265413941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, someone else (coppero?) linked it above < 1265413944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so read it < 1265413944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1265413948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, poor you < 1265413965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor me. < 1265413965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also: emigrate to somewhere saner < 1265413975 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard of ideas for chess variants where white pieces go forward in time, and black pieces go backward in time. Maybe we can even make a esolang with similar ideas? < 1265413976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My plan. < 1265413977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: OK, maybe. < 1265413977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics!? :o < 1265413980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweden or Norway, most likely. < 1265413993 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, our plan; my parents' too. < 1265413997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, Sweden is shit nowdays. Norway is expensive to live in < 1265414005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Sweden isn't as bad as UK < 1265414007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1265414012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's Sweden shit? You may have an incredibly skewed view; you guys voted for the pirate party < 1265414015 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: just a matter of definitions, i love nothing more than to use a completely counterintuitive definition as counterintuitively as possible. < 1265414022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, FRA, IPRED < 1265414026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to mention two things < 1265414031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay i love many things < 1265414047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the whole world is going that way < 1265414053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265414056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fra, okay, sure, that's bad < 1265414064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sweden doesn't have internet censorship right? finland does < 1265414067 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nighty < 1265414072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norway is expensive sure but surely not that much more expensive than sweden < 1265414076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the three counrties are really similar right? < 1265414080 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265414101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, iirc there is/was some sort of non-enforced recommendation of child porn sites that isp could blacklist < 1265414103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1265414106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vague memory < 1265414126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also what about Bolivia? It might be saner < 1265414157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1265414170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is what AnMaster would call a joke. < 1265414177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1265414196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no < 1265414198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, there was. < 1265414210 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do note that that's one of the things the Piratbyran opposed. < 1265414230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes, but this all goes at EU level nowdays < 1265414239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that the other political parties adopted as part of their platform in response. < 1265414239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scandinavia is one big happy family really < 1265414242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is basically no choice at any lower level for such things < 1265414258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Things inside of Sweden are at EU level? < 1265414261 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265414266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just EU laws? < 1265414268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't knock the EU if it's going to be saving my ass with free immigration. < 1265414278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265414314 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: did you see my idea? < 1265414315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not just EU laws? <-- I referred to EU laws < 1265414316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1265414328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FRA and IPRED are required laws by EU < 1265414329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: which? < 1265414329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: More like "near-citizenship". < 1265414329 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah. < 1265414337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fra surely < 1265414342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as in, the country has to implement something like it < 1265414346 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think the eu would condone warrantless wiretapping much less require it < 1265414346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, pretty sure yes < 1265414350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265414354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something very close < 1265414364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweden went way further though iirc < 1265414378 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm thinking of writing a program to tilize text; it would have nice features like the ability to run on updating text (e.g. a cellular automaton) and maybe even have an editor < 1265414421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually felt a brain context switch there, to programming mode < 1265414430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i'm thick right now, tilize? < 1265414443 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just made the word up :) < 1265414450 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265414453 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make tiled? :P < 1265414455 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean to take a text "image" and render it with graphical images < 1265414469 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like produce a graphical version of a Befunge program or something < 1265414486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265414501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, like showing code flow paths in colours? < 1265414573 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i actually felt a brain cell switch there, to programming mode < 1265414577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all one of them? < 1265414591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm context switch < 1265414592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not cell switch < 1265414602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, just one cell is all my programming magic < 1265414603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's < 1265414604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum < 1265414605 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how /I/ read (the first time) < 1265414606 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1265414610 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it.s....... quantum! < 1265414615 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Is Dungeons&Dragons turing complete? Actually, that isn't even a valid question < 1265414622 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lili < 1265414625 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic version would just take a text and replace each character with an image < 1265414676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm obligated to inject some ehird into the discussion < 1265414689 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the plan; we haven't had enough ehird lately < 1265414697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265414708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the basic version would just take a text and replace each character with an image <-- bitmap font rendering? < 1265414708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my quota < 1265414731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? so you love the ipad? < 1265414738 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gotta say, I love it when unit tests fail when you substitute a class with a subclass of it which *overrides nothing in it* < 1265414748 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate it and want it to be my wife! < 1265414762 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I gotta go. Later folks. < 1265414763 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that would be the basic principle, yeah < 1265414763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck ehird :) < 1265414767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Thank you. < 1265414770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hard to decide on it? < 1265414772 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265414784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Regular teenagers think they have issues with deciding on their sexuality. They should try being freedom-lovin' Apple fanboys. < 1265414798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wow what a great new invention! rendering text to a graphical image. Rather than sending it to a vt100 terminal unit < 1265414813 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not new < 1265414814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, actually render in *software*? < 1265414821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I was being sarcastic < 1265414822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265414823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm i'm required to inject some display nerdery into this subtopic < 1265414826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys, it has an IPS screen < 1265414832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's so thin and light and handheld. IPS! < 1265414834 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265414838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back to more depressing things < 1265414851 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows of sexual troubles! < 1265414852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but it is too large to fit into a pocket < 1265414858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265414860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so's your mom < 1265414865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you and everyone else < 1265414870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :join the club < 1265414875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :receive t-shirt, etc. < 1265414880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you want: "is that an ipad in your pocket, or are you just extremely happy to see me?" < 1265414886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been a member for a long while now < 1265414887 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265414894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would be, um, ridiculous < 1265414894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265414902 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure I'm in a special division though < 1265414918 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thta's a reason I wear cargo pants < 1265414934 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait it costs $499? why don't i have one already < 1265414938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from it not being released and stuff < 1265414943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265414953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was expecting like, $799 < 1265415132 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be a misprint. < 1265415149 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it's just a big iPhone, I'd say it's not a misprint < 1265415194 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265415269 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-243-76.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265415295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but what use case does ipad fill < 1265415337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "i am sitting on a bench and I want to read the new york times and check my email" case for one < 1265415359 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has better video hardware < 1265415382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure how useful the ported office suite will be though < 1265415385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that keyboard < 1265415438 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the plug-in one? < 1265415469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the onscreen one < 1265415471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm < 1265415495 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I don't expect that to be useful < 1265415498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it runs a subset of iphone apps too so it's a big games console < 1265415505 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fart sound maker < 1265415511 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too big to thumb-type, and practically impossible to touch-type < 1265415559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, touch-typing could be practical < 1265415567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the error-correction < 1265415567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see it really being < 1265415573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can almost do it on an iphone, it's just too small < 1265415597 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because touch-typing sucks on a keyboard with no force feedback, and the angle is awkward because you have to type and view on the same surface < 1265415631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it runs a subset of iphone apps too so it's a big games console <-- not full OS X apps?! < 1265415634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the crap < 1265415638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: >_< < 1265415642 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :American laptops: Full sized keyboard! Bigger keys instead of a full layout! Yay! < 1265415648 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I said it's a big iPhone. I wasn't kidding. < 1265415654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ... < 1265415657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and i said i wouldn't argue with you this weekend < 1265415658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that stupid... < 1265415664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i lied < 1265415664 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has better video hardware < 1265415680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just shocked at this vendor lockin < 1265415691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : American laptops: Full sized keyboard! Bigger keys instead of a full layout! Yay! <-- hm? < 1265415691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grabs the popcorn < 1265415694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're playing Vendor Lockin! < 1265415696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, like most laptops? < 1265415701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The game where AnMaster calls EVERYTHING vendor lockin! < 1265415703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, having full sized main area? < 1265415707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :24/7/365! < 1265415708 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1265415709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't miss it! < 1265415725 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the whole thing's width is that of a standard IBM-style keyboard < 1265415732 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously full sized < 1265415754 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's just an enlarged version of a normal laptop keyboard < 1265415758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, well my lenovo thinkpad has qwerty minus numeric keypad. the main (letter) area have keys the same size as a full sized pc keyboard < 1265415773 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265415777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some side keys are smaller, such as the F-keys < 1265415782 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's as big as a full keyboard < 1265415784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and alt/ctrl/win < 1265415796 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has no numpad and the arrows are squashed under shift and enter < 1265415798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the arrow keys are smaller and moved < 1265415805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, yes? < 1265415806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1265415813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like a sane solution for a laptop < 1265415817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to adopt to < 1265415818 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's the same size as a normal IBM-style desktop keyboard < 1265415825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265415826 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet it uses a laptop layout < 1265415832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, no mine isn't < 1265415835 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is < 1265415838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the lack for a keypad on the side < 1265415838 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying < 1265415842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a 15" laptop < 1265415849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you couldn't fit keypad there < 1265415854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with full sized main key < 1265415858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main keys* < 1265415868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, still it makes it easy to switch between laptop and desktop < 1265415870 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If can fit an IBM desktop keyboard on top of this laptop's keyboard < 1265415872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same key sizes for most keys < 1265415882 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keys are enlarged, but it has a laptop layout < 1265415890 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1265415910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with the numeric keypad the desktop keyboard is wider than my laptop < 1265415916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well,* < 1265415927 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265415932 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me they're the same < 1265415954 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of taking advantage of the space for a full kayboard layout, they squeezed in an engarged laptop layout. < 1265415956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, is that a 17" laptop? < 1265415972 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know measurements very well < 1265415989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, becuase having the same *key size* for the letter keys is useful < 1265415993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you switch a lot < 1265415997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it avoids a LOT of annoyance < 1265416002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to missed keys and such < 1265416007 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-all- of this laptop's kays are super sized < 1265416008 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's retarded < 1265416015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who is Wareya? < 1265416017 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :super sized from an IBM keyboard's size < 1265416017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is he new? < 1265416020 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatively < 1265416024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joined? < 1265416030 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Wareya < 1265416034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you know ais -> scarf btw? < 1265416053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, is that permanent? I doubt it < 1265416062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, seems fairly permanent so far < 1265416067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, lasted several days < 1265416088 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna move to a country where i have to wear ais523 around my neck < 1265416097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1265416106 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cold country? < 1265416112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches the joke woosh above AnMaster's head < 1265416123 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, or maybe it didn't < 1265416176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, indeed, it is controlled airspace there < 1265416266 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, otherwise all the jokes would crash together < 1265416275 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and form some sort of horrible mutant joke of all of them combined < 1265416279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you would then laugh at < 1265416283 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that one? < 1265416299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehehe < 1265416419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anyone want to come to norway with me and found an operating systems and programming languages research company < 1265416432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds cool < 1265416434 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to do that < 1265416468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke sothoth < 1265416470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do i :P < 1265416479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sothoth < 1265416482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only problem is figuring out a way to be profitable! < 1265416484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freaking < 1265416489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to freaking read goddam < 1265416494 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :H P Lovecraft < 1265416501 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a good version with lots of pictures?? < 1265416506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, you know, big space with lots of computers networked together... you can come into work if you want, some sort of money will probably change hands at some point < 1265416507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1265416508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chill < 1265416607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1265416685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night ↓ < 1265416695 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to sleep now! < 1265416702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're on top of sgeo < 1265416713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :congratulations, you managed to turn #esoteric to the awkwardly homoerotic once more. < 1265416786 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolangers are the only ones in that strange channel right niow < 1265416846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which strange channel? < 1265416880 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tullinge one < 1265416893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a channel for some area of Sweden. < 1265416914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best area there is < 1265416937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"tulling" means fool in norwegian. just saying. < 1265416980 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tulling - turring, just saw that < 1265417056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"turring" means fool in norwegian with a ridiculous japanese accent. just saying. < 1265417066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luftputefartøyet mitt er fullt av ål < 1265417067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Min svävare är full med ål < 1265417075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilmatyynyalukseni on täynnä ankeriaita < 1265417078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norweigan, swedish, finnish < 1265417079 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wins < 1265417138 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swedish; it has three funny accents, the others just two < 1265417159 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265417180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swedish is not... rounded enough < 1265417183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too... tall < 1265417191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't imagine a pleasant gentleman speaking swedish < 1265417233 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. like elves, really. < 1265417252 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good day gentlemen, bork bork bork. < 1265417272 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which elves? < 1265417287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tall, arrogant obnoxious ones. < 1265417288 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :High fantasy elves or childhood fantasy elves? < 1265417291 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265417298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i welcome you to the pleasantness of the current moment. < 1265417310 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting jumk food < 1265417314 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :junk* < 1265417317 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had junk food < 1265417336 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm walking to a store half a mile a way for... < 1265417345 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single bag of doritos, and a 2-liter of whatever < 1265417349 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later < 1265417353 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later < 1265417360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone hug me < 1265417362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1265417363 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what doritos are, but they must be awesome < 1265417374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs ehird < 1265417381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1265417385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doritos are corn crisp things < 1265417392 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're overprocessed, brand-name corn chips with cheese and spicing < 1265417394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dip them in things < 1265417404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hugging guys is weird < 1265417409 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know too much about junk foor for a 130 lb teenager < 1265417423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs still < 1265417424 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food* < 1265417435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20091101 < 1265417453 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll read it when I get back < 1265417469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14, 74 lbs representin' < 1265417475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am light. light as a feather < 1265417481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also really short. < 1265417493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact my interior is 99% air. < 1265417499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.99% helium < 1265417505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm like two and a half yous < 1265417512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not exactly < 1265417546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: maybe you could escape the uk in balloon form < 1265417570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd get a squeaky voice *and* escape < 1265417571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds good < 1265417594 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like two horses with one giant hammer < 1265417598 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better not fart while over the north sea, though < 1265417649 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, second fart joke < 1265417684 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265417706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, there was another one? < 1265417730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i started doing this thing today where i do the french r thingie without voicing < 1265417739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes breathing more fun < 1265417740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265417752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you were like "...oh dear did i make fart joke" < 1265417758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265417767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's essentially the german ch, isn't it < 1265417795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's supposed to roll that much < 1265417804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acch so < 1265417816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it rolls less audibly < 1265417820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i basically snore < 1265417828 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265417837 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a helicopter < 1265417855 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and everyone knows it's very bad for helicopters to snore < 1265418114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1265418203 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265418242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1265418326 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265418350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, SimonRC. < 1265418517 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265418560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265418569 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1265418688 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty funny < 1265418834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just found that "old" comic... i've been reading other comics on foglio's site for ages without realizing "What's new" _wasn't_ a link to the news section < 1265418851 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265418857 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My experience on the internet is like blurry tunnelvision < 1265418863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so i assume, since i hadn't noticed it before < 1265418870 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I don't know this guy < 1265418885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265418949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the newer comic Girl Genius has won a good number of awards < 1265419092 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it funny how it just loosely compared good/evil to roder and chaos < 1265419099 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.airshipentertainment.com/growfcomic.php?date=20091115 < 1265419112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, entropy is the greatest evil in the universe. < 1265419152 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my opinion, order/chaos and good/evil are utterly seperate scales < 1265419184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well duh but isn't what that comic _says_ < 1265419211 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like it's listing new names for the same things, to me. < 1265419221 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe because of my dialect, eh < 1265419239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in d&d good/evil and law/chaos are the two fundamental axes < 1265419256 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265419396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i would say it's because we're all culturally impressed with associating good with light and law < 1265419414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if we may not always agree consciously < 1265419431 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a really fundamental level, I guess you're right < 1265419456 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I do feel like that good and light are the same thing anyway, so < 1265419462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, s/law/order/, or both < 1265419466 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265419494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the bat people are likely to disagree vehemently ;D < 1265419502 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265419955 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really see any connection between good and light < 1265419988 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you have been educated evil? < 1265420001 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do not understand the four simultaneous days? < 1265420010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1265420026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like being in the dark, dunno why < 1265420032 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've played plenty of jrpgs < 1265420042 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's where good=light and evil=darkness came from < 1265420046 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me < 1265420251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265420590 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265420930 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265421184 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-idslepfdwijqdlse JOIN :#esoteric < 1265421663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night everybody, may i find dreams in my sleep. < 1265421663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1265421687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sleep, perchance to quark. < 1265421754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To sleep in Springfield, perchance to dream of being someplace else" < 1265421782 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees no relevent hits on Google, and points to some Simpsons book < 1265421904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freaking snowstorm. < 1265422068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265422305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265422402 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, someone pinged me >7h ago < 1265422439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, might have been me < 1265422448 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned the language you were making < 1265422457 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265422495 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: sweet, what were you saying? < 1265422506 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was asking what happened with it, I think < 1265422510 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should all be in the logs < 1265422518 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, logs, bah < 1265422568 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's being developed, and I have an experimental implementation that should be reworked slightly to make it TC < 1265422576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: should i ensadden olsner too, or am i not that evil < 1265422582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265422591 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I may still decide to rebuild the middle-part of it < 1265422624 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, *shrug* it's your life, your decision < 1265422625 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: oh, ensadden me as early as possible so that I may not be worsely ensaddened in further future < 1265422637 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*life story < 1265422664 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird about to die or something? < 1265422683 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, no. < 1265422702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know at least one thing and it's that I'm not that bad off. < 1265422735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I was about to die, I couldn't be talking lightly about ensaddening people on IRC. I'm utterly terrified of death. < 1265422738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, http://pastie.org/private/4oxpzgiywxbjobgrsa < 1265422753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For perspective, since I'm not sure if you know or not, I'm 14.) < 1265423010 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah, knew you're young... your situation sounds weird and harsh, but it's how I've always suspected "mental care" works pretty much everywhere < 1265423028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's definitely better in some places. < 1265423028 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, it's pretty much impossible to differentiate sane persons and insane persons claiming to be sane < 1265423038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thud. < 1265423044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...or vice versa. < 1265423075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I would be less ... whatever emotion I am about this whole situation if they were making steps to treat what they brand me with, instead of a bullshit "malnutrition" < 1265423079 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :claiming to be insane? that's a sign of sanity if there ever was one :P < 1265423081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're not < 1265423400 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think these systems are (with good intentions) built to prevent either you or your parents from bailing you out < 1265423501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But I cannot forgive the people involved. < 1265423511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They still did these things unthinkingly. < 1265423639 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they're claiming "malnutrition", they can't find a way to make sure you eat without detaining you in a place? < 1265423716 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265423740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not making sure I eat they're just giving me a drink that's woefully inappropriate; 2 x 1390 kcal + whatever else I eat in the day = one over-caloried puppy, and it's designed for people with disease-related malnutrition who *cannot* get the required amount of energy from food. And I'm not malnutritioned, I eat alright, maybe a bit less than usual. I'm just very thin, just as my father was. < 1265423751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs in the family, we're both perfectly healthy, no story there. < 1265423767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, you know, if the junk science of BMI says I'm overweight, well howdy-doody, to hell with the facts < 1265423783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that I could use that drink < 1265423807 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though technically I can get the required amount of energy from food, I tend not to < 1265423813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265423850 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tends not to eat properly < 1265423863 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that it would make sense for me to be in your position, tbh < 1265423902 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose detaining and force-feeding is what they will ultimately resort to to make you eat, after trying various other things, if they still think you're malnutritioned < 1265424325 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265424374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no, believe me it wouldn't < 1265424378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody would be helped by my position < 1265424389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw nutrition science is bullshit, ask Ilari if you have a lot of time :p < 1265424396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265424405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: there's an anorexic girl there, 13, celebrity-obsessed, refuses to eat or drink. they just have her on a feeding tube. < 1265424416 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, my physical body, if not my mind, might be helped < 1265424420 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seriously don't eat enough < 1265424425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't seem to especially care about actually fixing things, just temporary "fixes" < 1265424436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: maybe you just eat the wrong things. But seriously, nutrition science is crap. < 1265424831 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265425180 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265425889 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night all < 1265425963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265428517 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265429208 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265430327 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265430511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internet? Work? < 1265430511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please? < 1265430795 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, I started a debate: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=55981 < 1265430914 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes the taste of pina colada on his lips < 1265430927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat, I've got Internet. < 1265430943 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Suppose I have a ball on a hill. The ball is tolling directly up toward the top of the hill, such that its total energy is equal to what it would be if it were at rest at the top of the hill. So, it has enough energy to get to the top, but does it actually do so in a finite amount of time?" < 1265431000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No. It approaches the top asymptotically. < 1265431062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one side of the debate < 1265431184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm pretty sure it depends upon the geometry of the hill... < 1265431225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God dammit xkcd forums. < 1265431244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears to be making Conkeror ignore all input on that window. < 1265431260 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1265431265 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure the infinitists are right. < 1265431283 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if chapstick had some kind of toxin that was only dangerous if a lot of chapstick was needlessly used, I'd be dead now < 1265431341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I'm pretty sure there's a limit in there, so yeah... < 1265431404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate chapstick. < 1265431413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265431458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loves it < 1265431461 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loves the taste < 1265431483 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265431488 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265432117 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265432443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265433040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265433106 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265434024 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265435501 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265437924 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-6-215.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265438924 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-6-215.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265439099 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265439099 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265441540 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-243-76.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265441617 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: If you see this, remind me that I have to tell you something < 1265443199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265443200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265446482 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265447061 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265447137 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265448656 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265448757 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265449046 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-41.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265450264 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265450990 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@174-29-91-78.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265451329 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265451790 0 :Bullseye!~aayushrul@114.143.81.69 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265451818 0 :Bullseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is running I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n 3.1.1 (June '09) with Advanced File Serving features by cRYOa on mIRC v6.35 32bit obtained from #Invision on irc.irchighway.net and http://www.i-n-v-i-s-i-o-n.com < 1265451836 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265451854 0 :Bullseye!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265452668 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh. super. < 1265452889 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265452924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if there is a finite distance along the flat to the edge from the balls initial starting place, then i think you are right, an infinitely small push would take an infinite amount of time to even reach the edge, so the exact nature of the slope and the starting position may make a difference here" god these guys are retarded < 1265452956 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this is a slightly old conversation i'm reading, i notice < 1265456077 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265457169 0 :verangirl!~verangirl@159.29.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es JOIN :#esoteric < 1265457192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do I feel like writing my own irc client suddenly < 1265457282 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1265457433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1265457530 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you identi.ca user? < 1265457553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what that site is < 1265457595 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the free as in freedom twitter < 1265457636 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look: http://identi.ca/group/conspiracy < 1265457650 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265457665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verangirl, mhm, you know this channel is about esoteric programming languages right? Not about esoterica. < 1265457680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes people mistake this channel for the other thing < 1265457749 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hum, ok < 1265457822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric programming languages being intentionally unusual, weird or silly languages. Often (but not always) designed to be hard to program in. < 1265457983 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265458023 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than see you < 1265458024 0 :verangirl!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265458741 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bwuh? Why did Chrome spontaneously decide to reload a bunch of tabs? < 1265458751 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, this channel isn't about esoterica? Crud. See you < 1265458754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265458762 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265458841 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there actually is a channel for magick weenies < 1265460664 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265461323 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265461659 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-yowkfawmguzfrclh JOIN :#esoteric < 1265461661 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:20:41 i wonder if there actually is a channel for magick weenies < 1265461662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##php < 1265461672 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilarity < 1265461677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oblivious to how things work, merely trading magic incantations that appear, on the surface, to do what they desire < 1265461722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also 23:33:37 ehird: If you see this, remind me that I have to tell you something < 1265462140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265462579 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-41.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265463431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My own vote is clear: yes to both. Equality is reflexive (every value is equal to itself, at any longitude and temperature, no excuses and no exceptions); and the purpose of assignment is to make the value of the target equal to the value of the source. Such properties are some of the last ramparts of civilization. If they go away, what else is left?" --Bertrant Meyer < 1265463453 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265463752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi MissPiggy. < 1265463762 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1265463819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: agda question - it's tc but total, right? how does it handle that; that partiality monad? < 1265463868 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is total < 1265463881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it not tc, then? < 1265463912 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can express every partial function N -> N using a data type < 1265463922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, interesting, but what is the context? < 1265463924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could build a model of lambda calculus using a partiality monad < 1265463930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the language i spent a night babbling about - which has, as these things tend to, mutated wildly since - i'm trying to make it total, but to have partiality very ... < 1265463931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thingy < 1265463936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy < 1265463937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of that quote above) < 1265463945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://bertrandmeyer.com/2010/02/06/reflexivity-and-other-pillars-of-civilization/ < 1265463951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bertrand meyer = creator of Eiffel) < 1265463958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i said bertrant before < 1265463959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Bertrand < 1265464025 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the function space A -> B (or forall a : A, B, or whatever) cannot express every recursive function < 1265464045 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because -> is total functions (because you want to compute with them in types) < 1265464051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265464053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265464063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but e.g. A -> Computation B can be a model of lambda calculus < 1265464064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expressing it with a data type, how do you mean? I'm curious if it's what I'm thinking of or not < 1265464077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, so a partiality monad < 1265464095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can define all the primitive recursive stuff and Mu, just as a syntax first < 1265464107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can give a big step semantics, < 1265464115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right right, but what's the actual data type; i mean, it's a total language so is there sort of a backdoor where you can introduce partiality? < 1265464144 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you really are talking about the class of recursive functions now, every proof you write with respect to the semantics of that type is a valid statement about them < 1265464176 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your Computation there is a partiality monad, isn't it? < 1265464193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so presumably to make meaningful use of them, given a haskell-style main program solution, you need main :: Partial (IO ()) < 1265464194 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's just one way < 1265464208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you'd be in total-land, and couldn't invoke the forbidden fruit of the partial lands < 1265464360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my lambda syntax is currently λα.β because otherwise function types would get confusing :) (λα. α → ∅) vs (λα → α → ∅) < 1265464374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fuck yeah, unicode; i'm using unicode up the wazoo) < 1265464395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly it is rather awkward as I have *not* yet written an editor mode or editor which lets you type \a. a -> () to get that < 1265464398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah \x -> m is stupid < 1265464431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, wait < 1265464435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∅ is Void < 1265464436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not () < 1265464495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: come up with a nice unicode name for my () set :P < 1265464507 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't worry about writing partial programs < 1265464537 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that is just me .. < 1265464543 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe not such a valuable statement < 1265464547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, considering I am planning to use this language as an entire OS, I'm sure I will run into partiality at some point - and the total FP paper certainly did show that some operations are damn awkward with total FP. < 1265464585 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want to write an OS with it? < 1265464592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. I love the proof system duality and the mathematical soundness of having no ⊥, < 1265464600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure totality is practical. < 1265464612 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurrump < 1265464628 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: My goal in computing is to completely revolutionise it. My two separate interests are operating systems and programming languages. < 1265464639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is only natural that my awesome programming language would be my awesome operating system. < 1265464653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note "be", not "be used to write". < 1265464666 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright but you're not going to do a full correctness proof of the OS? < 1265464671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My OS design involves the programming language being central; a living environment. < 1265464673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think Smalltalk. < 1265464685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, well. :P < 1265464687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you talked to luqui about thsi < 1265464700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luqui's blog was a big inspiration < 1265464706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i haven't caught him on irc yet < 1265464733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh I could use ∈ instead of ∷ < 1265464735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ugly though < 1265464752 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing about \in is that it's asymmetric < 1265464774 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can get two symbols (one for the flipped relation) < 1265464792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether his empty type/set should be called ∅ or ⊥ < 1265464804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥ would be the type theory way; ∅ the set theory way... < 1265464824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∅ seems less confusing; ⊥ is too associated with non-termination and undefinedness in programming < 1265464842 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell* :P < 1265464842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, I'd like to be able to use ∅ to denote empty containers in value-land, and that would be doubly confusing < 1265464851 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody else has a clue what it is < 1265464868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, whatever; apart from agda guys, haskellers are the most mathematically civilised programmers :) < 1265464875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and coq etc) < 1265464948 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joys of Unicode: /=? Why wouldn't you just write ≢? < 1265465022 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about a language that could compile into almost every high level language < 1265465032 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, see my memo to you < 1265465036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≢ because you have to use ≡ for equality < 1265465041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because = is definition < 1265465047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: underlambda :P < 1265465082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: relink the paste in /msg; it may not be so bad < 1265465092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have after all linked to the pastie which tells everything in this channel < 1265465121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: can you think of any way to use ≠ for equality and not be inconsistent since = is definition? maybe a better symbol for definition? :P < 1265465131 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::= for definition < 1265465141 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := for the equality type! < 1265465148 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yuo can say x = y and MEAN IT < 1265465166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::= isn't unicode bitchnizzle < 1265465173 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a unicode one :P < 1265465181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIND IT PEASANT < 1265465212 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≝ < 1265465217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers that |α| instead of abs α may be taking the mathematical notation thing a *bit* too far < 1265465230 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a| is a fucking abomination < 1265465233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: a more hideous symbol I've not seen! I wonder what font size I'm expected to use to make out "def" there. < 1265465236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah agreed < 1265465238 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a|b|c| < 1265465239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :retarded notation < 1265465246 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≔ < 1265465260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that reduction symbol that rconnor likes < 1265465271 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'm not keen on the unicode stuff because all the operators are too small (unnecessarily :/) < 1265465274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematical notation defines too much syntax when functions would do :/ < 1265465282 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah I'm taking care not to use any blots of ink < 1265465294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, _my_ OS will display it perfectly legibly ;) < 1265465298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265465307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20031202T032200Z.html < 1265465316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→β* < 1265465321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have our definition symbol. < 1265465348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :||a||₂ for the euclidean norm. < 1265465361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I draw the line at superscript numbers for powers < 1265465379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes, the stupid symbol is used for all norms < 1265465405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, okay, so any fancy space-age editor, like my OS, will *display* it as superscripts. < 1265465417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in the Unicode representation? < 1265465419 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nooooooooooooooooooooooo way < 1265465461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Actually I think my OS will only have to consider code as text for interacting with the outside world. Internally, it's an AST or compiled code; in the UI, it's rendered with fancy things like superscripts. < 1265465465 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/)/ < 1265465482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have a maths teacher who uses sub- and superscript indices completely interchangeably, often changing them between consecutive lines. Also some sort of "middle-scripts" occasionally. < 1265465502 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow lol < 1265465520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the best symbol for the exponentation operator is < 1265465619 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265465677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe ↑ due to knuth :) < 1265465687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/axd4m/what_is_the_mathematical_rule_that_says_if_abc/c0jw2vc < 1265465688 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1265465718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone who answers a question starting "What is the mathematical rule" with "common sense" is so idiotic I cannot comphrend it < 1265465744 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+1=2 is common sense! < 1265465754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://us.metamath.org/mpegif/2p2e4.html < 1265465757 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^2+b^2=c^2 because duh!! < 1265465757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love metamath < 1265465767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's so 80s < 1265465775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso < 1265465784 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys I just had a great idea, lets put all our math in the computer! < 1265465794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says the agda fan < 1265465807 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epigram fan < 1265465815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you like metamath? < 1265465824 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like it, it's just very funny < 1265465827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aight < 1265465831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i misinterpreted what you said < 1265465898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo α β = (α ≡ β) ∨ (α ≢ β) < 1265465937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊕ ∷ Bool → Bool → Bool < 1265465939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND JUST WHY NOT < 1265465954 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm ≡ is sometimes used for definition? < 1265465957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i could swap =/≡ < 1265465961 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or definitional equality < 1265465966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh or ≐ is a nice unicodey thing for := < 1265465974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all ridiculous like ≝ < 1265465987 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like y + x = x + y, but not definitionally < 1265465992 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need induction to prove it < 1265466049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he's crazy enough to do ÷ ∷ Boringtypeclasstypethingy → Anotherone → Maybe Yetanotherone < 1265466077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yesiree we have a mathematical programming language here, please ignore the endless handling of ÷'s return values behind the curtain < 1265466092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides yes < 1265466096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am crazy enough. < 1265466110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need nice syntax for doing things like this in expressions. < 1265466171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, say f {x} (y z {r q {x}}) → (using haskell syntax) do x' <- x; x'' <- x; r_q_x' <- r q x''; return (f x' (y z r_q_x')) < 1265466183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given some surrounding brackets to denote that it's a special expression thingy ofc < 1265466189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you could use the maybe monad < 1265466207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: So, do you think ≡ is a reasonable symbol for what-Haskell-calls (to avoid ambiguity) =? < 1265466209 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why you would want to?? < 1265466216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't < 1265466220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1265466228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, < 1265466238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one, Maybe handling < 1265466254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 + {3 ÷ x} < 1265466260 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaha ÷ < 1265466262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1265466266 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1265466274 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265466283 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... enough to do ÷ ∷ Boringtypeclasstypethingy..." < 1265466286 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that as a + :( < 1265466292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265466302 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ ÷ = ≢ ≝ < 1265466307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, {| 2 + {3 ÷ x} |} is nicer to write than fmap (2 +) (3 ÷ x) < 1265466337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a downside is that imperative weenies could do {| say {readLine} |} :P < 1265466349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess it's just a generalisation of >>= and =<< and <$> and blah blah blah < 1265466350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265466360 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiom brackets < 1265466362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, Hm is ÷ fraction, integer division, floating point division or something else? < 1265466368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i suspected idiom brackets were the same thing < 1265466374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1265466388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah all of them then < 1265466390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah,* < 1265466404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not all of "something else". You have to obey some properties, or the compiler will yell at you. < 1265466414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well of course < 1265466441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really "of cause"; almost all languages don't do such things. < 1265466448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can define (/) to be pretty much whatever you want in Haskell. < 1265466451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"of cause"? < 1265466454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*course < 1265466458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265466462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but is the result of ÷ exact or not? < 1265466487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on the definition doesn't it? < 1265466527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes indeed, which is what my first question about it tried to ascertain. < 1265466539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably require that {| α × {β ÷ α} ≡ β |}, so... < 1265466556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Using ≡ as equality, though that symbol is very much in flux.) < 1265466586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can not produce a "simple" floating point value when dividing two floating point values I think. < 1265466592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, I'm not 100% sure about that < 1265466645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd relax it to {| someEqualityThingProvidedByTheDefinition (α × {β ÷ α}) β |}, but that's as good as letting you define it to anything. < 1265466665 0 :lieuwe!~3efb65d9@gateway/web/freenode/x-pqwhpbcqylhlhfvx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265466668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> (3231.318478239 / 238914.12391) * 238914.12391 < 1265466668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3231.3184782389999 < 1265466682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how my λ is the same thing as ∀. < 1265466685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. < 1265466696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I might have a separate class for inexact operations. < 1265466718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :÷?, maybe. < 1265466721 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epigram has quotient types < 1265466736 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could quotient out by "someEqualityThingProvidedByTheDefinition" and still use {| α × {β ÷ α} ≡ β |} < 1265466765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, iirc any floating point operation is potentially inexact. Well, almost any. x := y would be exact if both are the same type of floating point. < 1265466768 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that allows inexact definitions but still doesn't let you define it to anything you want? How? < 1265466772 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so haskal? < 1265466777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I know. < 1265466787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265466791 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1265466794 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in numerics < 1265466802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Floating-point operations don't obey the laws of arithmetic, though. :) < 1265466804 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we get something like fl : R -> R defined < 1265466808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265466811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could use Real < 1265466818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and specify the inexact implementation as an "implementation detail" < 1265466819 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you write x + y*z would compute to fl(x + fl(x*z)) < 1265466825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, true. So what you want is basically a CASkell? < 1265466826 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where fl does the rounding etc < 1265466827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., the code is considered to operate on reals in all their exactness < 1265466833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CASkell! lol < 1265466833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. < 1265466835 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1265466839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at runtime < 1265466841 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good name though < 1265466844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses floating-point < 1265466845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah < 1265466847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265466847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah < 1265466853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i smiled at the name. < 1265466939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and specify the inexact implementation as an "implementation detail" <-- "this implementation always round to zero. No, that isn't a typo for 'towards zero'." < 1265466945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it occurs to me that "e" is a rather inconvenient name to give e, given the commonality of single-letter variable names... < 1265466956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh < 1265466964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's correct for sufficiently large values of zero < 1265466994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd call e "euler", but euler has done so many mathematical things that it would be hopelessly vague :P < 1265466997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? representing numbers as the length of a series of zeros? < 1265467017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if an idiot was working with the Euler–Mascheroni constant he'd be confused. < 1265467022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a joke. < 1265467056 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a mathematical context e means exp(1) < 1265467065 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a monad context + means mplus < 1265467065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, as someone in here said: it is perfectly in spirit with this channel to try to make a working thing of a joke. < 1265467072 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually I prefer (+) for mplus < 1265467081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: + for mplus would be interesting. < 1265467088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have been ais/scarf < 1265467099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm already sold on o (too lazy to unicode) = category composition < 1265467107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is even generaler than o = fmap, i think < 1265467119 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265467128 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap and o are quite different thuogh < 1265467134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think o is better < 1265467142 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmap should just be map < 1265467142 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265467146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.) :: cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c < 1265467148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--control.category < 1265467150 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265467150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why is e a bad name for e? I can think of at least one way to end up with that as a reasonable letter < 1265467153 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems good < 1265467154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that doesn't allow . = fmap < 1265467156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's good i think < 1265467160 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you're right < 1265467209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the supereditor will probably display α ÷ β as < 1265467213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :α < 1265467213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- < 1265467214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :β < 1265467215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265467242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although at the same time I don't think I want to abandon the entirety of linear syntax < 1265467244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has useful properties < 1265467251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not necessarily textual, but linera) < 1265467253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*linear < 1265467271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, consistency is Good, and also something mathematical notation sorely lacks < 1265467289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: any good ideas for the hole character in mixfix operators? < 1265467297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to use _, it should be allowed in variable names I think < 1265467298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mixfix? boo!!! < 1265467302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically: (e^x)' = e^x, thus it is "its own derivative", and a lot of mathematicans were from Germany historically, thus that leads to "eigen" for "own/self", thus e) < 1265467309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[14:33] and you write x + y*z would compute to fl(x + fl(x*z)) < 1265467311 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that < 1265467313 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why I hate mixfix is: < 1265467314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about that way to explain why e is a good name for e? < 1265467323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the same thing as what i was saying < 1265467333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but in programming "e" is not an uncommon variable name < 1265467340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so having "e" in global scope is problematic < 1265467342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'm listening < 1265467344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, true. < 1265467348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i love mixfix so it better be a good argument :P < 1265467354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you could use namespaces/module prefixes < 1265467361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have like math:e or such < 1265467371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and if you're writing mathematical code? < 1265467373 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you were making a type system or soemthing, and you wanted to define a function t :: T, to express that t has type T < 1265467375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you envelop all of math. < 1265467385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, import it? like "from math import e" < 1265467385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you run into the same problem, although I guess mathematicians wouldn't name variables e because of that. < 1265467393 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type of t depends on T, so in mixfix you can't do it.. you have to write T ::' t < 1265467397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(psedo-python) < 1265467402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pseudo* < 1265467429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I just meant the general idea of being able to define an operation if_then_else_, not any specific definition of the semantics < 1265467432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mixfix operators being typed is the problem really < 1265467447 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if you just make them notations, rather than well typed terms I think it's better < 1265467459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know they were terms in Agda or whatever < 1265467463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are I don't see why < 1265467481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welll when you compute it will print back the mixfix terms < 1265467493 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than something horrid like Ap (Ap (Dollar ..) (Ap .. < 1265467498 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that we're so used to seeing. < 1265467503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's basically prettyprinting? < 1265467514 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they are just notations then it's a bit harder to make the link, I guess < 1265467514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you may be used to seeing it but I observe agda from a strictly outside viewpoint! ha! < 1265467527 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1265467528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: seems ridiculous to add such craziness just for prettyprinting < 1265467533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a smarter pretty-printer! < 1265467541 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not too smart! < 1265467551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you make sure it's Friendly! < 1265467555 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265467556 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265467582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird you know I have read so muh lesswrong < 1265467584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much* < 1265467587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i prettyprinted my expression that (given infinite time) checked if the reimann hypothesis was true or false < 1265467595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it printed "the Boolean *£($&(*£$uq))(ii!£()!*£)(*NO CARRIER < 1265467601 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265467608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265467639 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-yowkfawmguzfrclh JOIN :#esoteric < 1265467642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phew, my connection dropped there. < 1265467652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, easy to explain < 1265467657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said "no carrier" ;P < 1265467669 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still trying to come up with some sort of high-level esolang... can't come up with anything implementable :-/ < 1265467673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly _something_ listened < 1265467689 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lieuwe you came up with unimplementable stuff? :) < 1265467691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Was that a pun? A carrier carries something, if a carrier stops carrying something they drop it? < 1265467695 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, I love you. < 1265467701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have made an actually good pun. < 1265467704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congratulations. < 1265467704 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265467713 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not toataly unimplementable, just very hard... < 1265467740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it was a reference to modems mostly. Remembers those leds on them? I mean good old 28 kbit ones and such < 1265467743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like the compiler for my language < 1265467753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"yeah, in fact it's technically implementable!" < 1265467771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should hire a buncha phds to do it for me < 1265467775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So not a good pun then :( < 1265467815 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i have this horrible feeling that the ML-style module system is going to interact terribly strangely with my type system < 1265467826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, My variant seems more relevant to any sort of connection over telephony. < 1265467833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird you could just steal Coqs module system < 1265467842 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea about modules though < 1265467845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i might, is it as good as ml's? :P < 1265467862 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I think it's basically the same, except a bit extra for the types < 1265467873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and iirc you have iphone or adsl to choose from. < 1265467912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 3g stick :P < 1265467918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true < 1265467927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a carrier there < 1265467954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you use that or the iphone then it is carrier in several meanings < 1265467987 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265467996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data [_] ∷ Set → Set where < 1265467998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ∅ ∷ λα. [α] < 1265468000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _:_ ∷ λα. α → [α] → [α] < 1265468009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but primarily see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NO_CARRIER < 1265468011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where _ is the operator placeholder thingy < 1265468023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, yeah, so in actuality those names are in the Container or Sequence or whatever thingy. < 1265468023 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not epsilon? < 1265468031 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also PUKE!!!!!! < 1265468036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, overloading ∅ to mean something other than the empty *set* is probably abhorrent. < 1265468038 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use : for type judgements and :: for cons :P < 1265468039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT I LIKE UNICODE. < 1265468046 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epsilon is unicode!! < 1265468049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I don't use :: for type judgements, I use ∷ < 1265468052 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just didn't look it up < 1265468055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know what no carrior is < 1265468057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*carrier < 1265468060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i said it < 1265468060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, right < 1265468062 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well ∷ sucks ;[ < 1265468076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i don't even know what it's supposed to be :) < 1265468084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway : for type judgements just seems too... lightweight < 1265468092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno why, it just seems like the meat is taken out from the expression < 1265468110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I shhould use ∈ for type judgements :P < 1265468163 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah ∈ is better than :: < 1265468169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ∷ whatever < 1265468170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks ugly to me :P < 1265468173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with :: < 1265468181 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it atkes TWICE as long to type < 1265468186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1265468187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :believe me it adds up < 1265468196 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the single most common operator you type < 1265468201 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wtf's up with the greek letters:-p? < 1265468203 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, = is < 1265468205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∈ and :: mean different things, no? < 1265468212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lieuwe: we're being pretentious functional programmers < 1265468213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1265468221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is-member-of-set = is-of-type < 1265468222 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: :P < 1265468230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: = is more common than :: < 1265468234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think e.g. let and where < 1265468238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where often you omit the types < 1265468246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but :: outside of a definition isn't very common < 1265468250 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but hm < 1265468251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so = is definitely more common than :: < 1265468253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm seems wrong to use the same symbol for them somehow < 1265468258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They are the same thing. < 1265468268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevertheless... < 1265468271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but meh < 1265468273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're saying the same thing as "it seems wrong to use the same symbol for addition and addition". < 1265468299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, there should be different symbols for integer and floating point addition < 1265468302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1265468304 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you have a point in that _∈_ in value-land will be container/sequence-membership, and it'd be nice to be able to use things like that in type-land < 1265468313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But those are different things. < 1265468323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't seem to understand: "Type" is just another word for "set". < 1265468323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265468338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on what set theory and/or type theory you use iirc? < 1265468346 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :types aren't really sets though < 1265468357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just call them that and use ∈ because we don't like set theory < 1265468370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ℕ not a set? < 1265468382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's an inductively defined set < 1265468387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a set < 1265468389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ℕ is the set of natural numbers yes < 1265468391 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not made up of {}'s < 1265468399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but it's a set. < 1265468483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but yeah, _∈_ in value-land will be member-of-sequencecontainerwhatever; and it would be nice to be able to use that in type-land, which we can't do if we use it for type judgement < 1265468497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bloody haskell doesn't have to avoid naming conflicts between value- and type-land :P < 1265468521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1265468552 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :operators just break up the monotony of f (g x y) (h z (w p q)) < 1265468569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g x y + h z (p * q) < 1265468570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest we call using non-operator names for functions 9-to-5 naming < 1265468583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: *× < 1265468592 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p × q < 1265468596 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that x < 1265468597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or · < 1265468599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your choice < 1265468605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x × x < 1265468613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode needs italics-x as a character :P < 1265468635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the cross product of x and x? < 1265468651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc × and · are quite different < 1265468653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heard of multiplication, AnMaster? < 1265468674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes but isn't cross product and dot product different for vectors? < 1265468694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two different kinds of product < 1265468709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, true. < 1265468738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what fun category-theory concept × should be defined to < 1265468744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's gotta be something, there's always something. < 1265468765 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't even know what category theory does... < 1265468822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't do anything! It sits around looking awesome. < 1265468841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fairly sure that it's an odd instance of the curry-howard isomorphism though, in that they're the same definitions but used entirely differently < 1265468846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cosmic usefulness transfer < 1265468855 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265468861 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curry-howard-lambek < 1265468885 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a three way isomorphism between types (in programming languages), propositions (in logic) and objects of a Cartesian closed category. < 1265468917 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forgot linguistics < 1265468935 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1265468937 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1265468943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics is isomorphic to logic, thus to programming < 1265468947 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ho < 1265468948 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1265468951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno ask augur < 1265468955 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is forgetting linguistics worse than forgetting poland? < 1265468956 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me!!! < 1265468961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also they, well augur, also i think i've seen you, use basically lambda calculus for some syntax :P < 1265468968 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I take it you mean semantics < 1265468971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: i had to restrain myself not to say that < 1265468973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah semantics whatever < 1265468974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm no linguer < 1265468983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no don't do it. We won't get rid of the linguistics discussion for hours then! :( < 1265468997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh oh < 1265469006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, what's the one thing that can distract augur from linguistics < 1265469007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AH! < 1265469010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gay sex! < 1265469017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QUICK EVERYONE, TO THE BUTT-BATALLIONS < 1265469020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1265469078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: in category theory, you have objects, and "structure-preserving mappings" between them, then you have a very general way to define things like isomorphisms, the same definition works for groups and sets and so on, because you just talk about properties of functions that have to do with their composition. < 1265469094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that also works to kill the linguistics. < 1265469113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh i should have said "buttallions" < 1265469246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically isomorphisms can be just defined as mappings that can be inverted both ways, that is, "no info is lost", then when you look at the category of groups and morphisms, and the category of sets and functions, you'll see that you've defined a sensible isomorphism for both < 1265469262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :called bijection for functions ofc < 1265469275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to pizza maybe < 1265469296 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nice to have a formal theory about these informationy heuristics we use < 1265469394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did data Bijection a b = Bijection (a -> b) (b -> a) in haskell but i was sad < 1265469403 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you couldn't, you know, show that it was actually... that < 1265469435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in awesome languages I could just include an (f (g x) = x) :P < 1265469536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1265469539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a Category, I wonder? < 1265469558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(.) :: cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c < 1265469583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ((b->c),(c->b)) -> ((a->b),(b->a)) -> ((a->c),(c->a)) < 1265469602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1265469611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Category as in the haskell definition of it in base) < 1265469622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty slick. < 1265469645 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't see the point < 1265469650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's cool? < 1265469653 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have a category of bijections, now what?? < 1265469660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you can compose bijections! < 1265469701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey wait < 1265469707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even need to require that they be functions < 1265469709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, I do < 1265469712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a way to apply them < 1265469715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was thinking I could just do categories < 1265469720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waiiit < 1265469721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could < 1265469729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265469730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't < 1265469730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kay < 1265469843 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Bijection ∷ Set → Set → Set where < 1265469845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Bijection ∷ λα. λβ. < 1265469847 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {f ∷ α → β} → < 1265469849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {g ∷ β → α} → < 1265469851 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {λx. f (g x) ≡ x} → < 1265469853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {λx. g (f x) ≡ x} → < 1265469854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Bijection α β < 1265469863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only problem there is that we need ≡ < 1265469871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but having it depend on equality is silly imo < 1265469891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, f and g shouldn't be in {} < 1265469893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should be in (), I think < 1265469911 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MissPiggy: right?) < 1265469937 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265469947 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are into category theory why don't you define it as a split epi < 1265469949 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and mono < 1265470011 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265470038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i don't understand category theory :) < 1265470051 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me neither < 1265470057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to combine GADTs and the Foo { blah :: ..., } stuff < 1265470069 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GADT?? < 1265470085 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :record syntax for GADT? < 1265470145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar :P < 1265470155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not record syntax necessarily < 1265470161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just automatic accessor-definers < 1265470168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you know what would be nice? < 1265470172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having juxtaposition be like < 1265470188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :juxtaposition :: (Juxtaposable a b c) => a -> b -> c < 1265470189 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where < 1265470195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Juxtaposable a b c | a b -> c < 1265470204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have Juxtaposable (a -> b) a b < 1265470215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, say you have an accessor < 1265470217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it also works for writing < 1265470229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have like < 1265470242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modify :: value -> accessor for that value -> new value of the property -> value < 1265470243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also < 1265470251 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Juxtaposable (Accessor a b) a b < 1265470258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do "prop value" for access < 1265470262 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way (you probably know this..) the dependent type stuff is more general than GADT < 1265470285 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm although is it more general than She style GADT? < 1265470286 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265470296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but gadts are nice syntax for most stuff, so. < 1265470385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll also have type-level functions basically < 1265470392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Foo bar baz quux = ... < 1265470403 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't use type to define them?? < 1265470412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just picking an arbitrary keyword :) < 1265470418 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay but why need any keyword < 1265470421 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's the same thing as haskell's type synonyms < 1265470422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just more general < 1265470425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to < 1265470430 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only different is that you are going into Set rather than Int or something < 1265470437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1265470441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you use it at compile-time < 1265470447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in the living environment of my OS it doesn't matter, but... < 1265470455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you are right. < 1265470536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# 9.7-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen Multi-Touch display with IPS technology # 1024-by-768-pixel resolution at 132 pixels per inch (ppi) < 1265470542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to Apple 4:3 is widescreen < 1265470709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, for P=NP, could it be that it is unprovable if it is the case or not? Has anyone tried to prove it unprovable? < 1265470729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&source=hp&q=p%3Dnp+unprovable&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=p%3Dnp+unprovable&fp=33a9a577caa4e7cb < 1265470737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This article shows that "P-not-equal-to-NP" is unprovable in ZFC. Here is a review of this proof by the German logician Ralf Schindler. ... < 1265470744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if it's a crackpot < 1265470749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, #hl? that url is broken < 1265470760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everthing after that first # is an anchor < 1265470761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Unfortunately, there is an error in the proof [...]." < 1265470764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: javascript < 1265470767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me, google < 1265470777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, usually I don't get # there in the urls.. < 1265470777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265470782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's to avoid loading the surrounding stuff of the page, I bet < 1265470786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to speed up load times < 1265470812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Proof by contradiction. Assume P=NP. Let y be a proof that P=NP. The proof y can be verified in polynomial time by a competent computer scientist, the existence of which we assert. However, since P=NP, the proof y can be generated in polynomial time by such computer scientists. Since this generation has not yet occurred (despite attempts by such computer scientists to produce a proof), we have a contradiction." < 1265470884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, After reading it twice: huh? < 1265470898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a joke; laugh. < 1265470906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah < 1265470916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't understand it, you don't understand what p=np means :P < 1265470974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we can defeat entropy and have a singularity it doesn't matter how long computations take; the universe will be filled with one gigantic computer on which all our minds will be uploaded. It will make us experience time in sync so that every computation is instant. < 1265470995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., if someone runs a computation that takes a gazillion years, everyone stops thinking, a gazillion years pass, then we resume thinking; to us, the computation happened immediately < 1265471005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, my brain was in math proof mode when reading it. I do see the joke now < 1265471007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1265471120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I meant was, that maybe P=NP is unprovable in the same sense as the cardinality of R. Or to take another example: the parallel postulate in Euclidean geometry. (Which is why it is an axiom) < 1265471243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're a genius! < 1265471248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why don't we just define P=NP as an axiom? < 1265471253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg, this changes everything :D < 1265471306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1265471391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't it (in theory) be proven that it is impossible to prove either P=NP or P!=NP ? < 1265471442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's true, maybe it can be proven. < 1265471452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be true that it is unprovable and yet not be provable that it is unprovable. < 1265471459 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1265471461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could also be false and thus not provable, at least if ZFC is consistent. < 1265471485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe it could be proven that it is unprovable to prove it unprovable? < 1265471496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(argh the headache) < 1265471519 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll prove your mom. < 1265471536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas I can't think of any snappy reply to that < 1265471600 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your mom proved your face in bed last night, didn't she?" < 1265471609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I was there. WATCHING" < 1265471625 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why don't we just define P=NP as an axiom? -- because nobody knows if it's independent yet!! < 1265471655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONSISTENCY IS IRRELEVANT! < 1265471665 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's import to me :( < 1265471674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Son, I am import. < 1265471678 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265471718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel like i'm stumbled upon this wonderful oasis in programming language design < 1265471720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i've < 1265471729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the smartest people are here and it has such cool stuff < 1265471752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, she is my favourite preprocessor ever. < 1265471764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pattern synonyms are actually something i've always wanted in haskell < 1265471823 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She has them < 1265471832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She does. < 1265471832 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit < 1265471836 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are talking about she < 1265471842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU BROKE THE GRAMMAR < 1265471858 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION crawl back into my mud bath < 1265471861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She has rules, and the first is: She can be talked about, but only if you respect her grammar. < 1265472031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm a non-constructive proof for P=NP would be fun < 1265472074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go straight to ⊥; do not pass go, do not collect £200. < 1265472086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265472112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't testing *if* a number is prime in P? iirc that is < 1265472136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ^ < 1265472159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is. Known since 2002. < 1265472169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, AKS right? < 1265472173 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265472181 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That book actually contained something meaningful? < 1265472183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm astonished. < 1265472195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stolen from someone else, right? < 1265472200 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wut? < 1265472209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut indeed < 1265472209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, not A New Kind of Science. < 1265472214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was published in 2002. < 1265472216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, AKS Primality test < 1265472220 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My inferrence engine is broken today. < 1265472230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you mean, it wasn't intentional < 1265472231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265472232 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU BROKE THE SPELLING < 1265472234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope :P < 1265472238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: :'( < 1265472245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1265472249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: any totally dependawesome insights on http://www.daimi.au.dk/~madst/tool/papers/expression.txt < 1265472262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she has http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/higpig.html but i dunno seems hacky < 1265472262 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265472268 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never actually understood this problem < 1265472273 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. I didn't read through it < 1265472281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my understanding is < 1265472291 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higgelty piggelty works nice for epigram < 1265472300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know if it's related to expression problem < 1265472301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have a vague memory of reading that AKS is horribly inefficient though. And that some of the non-polynomial algorithms are in fact faster in practise for most "practical purposes" < 1265472313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Ty a = Foo a | Bar a < 1265472318 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not sure even if I come up with a solution that I deem _perfect_ other people will just say it sucks < 1265472329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, we can easily add functions (columns) to this without violating type safety or modifying existing code, < 1265472339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we cannot add new rows (data type cases) < 1265472342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1265472347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : func1 func2 func3 < 1265472349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know if it's "horribly inefficient" but yes, in practice it's slower than the probabilistic tests < 1265472351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo ... < 1265472352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bar ... < 1265472353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the results < 1265472355 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it? < 1265472367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an object-oriented language, the columns can't be changed: they're the methods in a class < 1265472372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can easily add new rows: subclasses < 1265472381 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expression problem is: How can we have *both*? < 1265472396 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a second, < 1265472416 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have data Expr = ..., and each constructor of Expr is a row < 1265472423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have func1, func2, ... each is a column < 1265472426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar < 1265472445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can easily add new functions, but you cannot add rows *elsewhere in the program* < 1265472449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're fixed < 1265472455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with functions, you can just create a new one and bam, you're done < 1265472459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, with OOP < 1265472468 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to add a new constructor you have to update each func1, and to add a new func you have to update each constructor?? < 1265472471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have class Foo { int bar(); int quux(); } < 1265472477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each method is a column < 1265472478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have < 1265472488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the values as the rows still < 1265472494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can extend them < 1265472495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Bar extends Foo { ... } < 1265472498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can add rows < 1265472506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so with FP you can add columns, with OOP rows; the problem is being able to add both < 1265472513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elsewhere in the program < 1265472520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without breaking existing code < 1265472549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright let me think < 1265472554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll make a text file showing this more clearly without ircspeak < 1265472563 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do both of these (FP or OOP) approach using ADTs < 1265472583 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean each one individually, using a different approach < 1265472584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, when you measure O(whatever) for an algorithm for prime factorisation, what exactly is it you measure it against. < 1265472596 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to have one framework that lets you solve both problems at once.. < 1265472615 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Their complexities are O(f(n)) where n is the number tested < 1265472722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually you say a number's size is its log < 1265472734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just stick 2^n in there < 1265472738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what Deewiant said < 1265472742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wouldn't then "try each number from 2 to sqrt(n) to see if it divides n" be O(sqrt(n)). After all, that is how many divisions you perform. And O(sqrt(n)) would grow slower than O(n), no? And isn't O(n) polynomial? < 1265472776 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting problem < 1265472778 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1265472780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must be missing something critical here < 1265472790 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's a pseudopolynomial algorithm for it, a polynomial algorithm, when talking about numbers, is one where you take n as the log of the number < 1265472816 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265472819 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for numbers we have separate classes for taking the number as its own size (pseudo), and taking its log as size (more natural for most problems) < 1265472823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ah. Which logarithm? the natural one? < 1265472829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter < 1265472846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll leave proving that as homework < 1265472870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it does... if you take the n-log < 1265472877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would always yield 1 < 1265472909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously it must be a constant < 1265472918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1265472930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, misspiggy disappeared < 1265472948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway log_a(n) and log_b(n) are a constant apart, so that doesn't matter for O < 1265472950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually) < 1265472992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for anyone who wants an explanation of what the expression problem is: http://pastie.org/812457.txt?key=jy9qm2hfkgtfxiooahshxw < 1265473008 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have enough problems already < 1265473012 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(5) < 1265473043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm correct me if I'm wrong but: log_a(n) > log_b(n) for all n if a < b? < 1265473047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/812459.txt?key=cadkhg4ho0qiceepz1a7w < 1265473052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Revised version; forgot to change one sentence. < 1265473061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, that probably only applies to n larger than the base or such < 1265473064 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nope < 1265473065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Is a bitch one? < 1265473078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: they all have to do with complex analysis < 1265473094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, "nope" to "only applies" or to the original statement? < 1265473120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what n is, log is increasing < 1265473121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: So I suppose you could say that you have 99 (minus 94) problems, but a bitch ain't one. < 1265473130 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well n>0) < 1265473140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well yes, but that isn't what I said. I said what their relative values are < 1265473144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between two different bases < 1265473144 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: is that a reference to something? < 1265473154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. Also, http://i.imgur.com/b8OLl.jpg < 1265473168 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh sorry < 1265473189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, log_10(500) < log_e(500) for example < 1265473203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's true then, log is decreasing w.r.t. base < 1265473205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those are the ones with easily accessible buttons on my calculator < 1265473310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What you're missing in your trial division thing is the complexity of a division < 1265473310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, does it make sense to do something like lim_{a->+inf} log_a( whatever ) < 1265473336 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on the topology! < 1265473340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, why not < 1265473353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, then use that log for the complexity! < 1265473386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever it is constant or not could perhaps be argued, but it no longer depends on n at least < 1265473392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, i guess you win < 1265473396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm. What is that complexity < 1265473410 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O(n^2) with the trivial algo < 1265473415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, I'm on deep water here, I probably missed something crucial. < 1265473454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is still polynomial unless I'm completely missing something? < 1265473458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember what the known bounds are tho < 1265473468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait were you serious about the lim? < 1265473472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what you meant < 1265473478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, not really < 1265473509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, it is an interesting question: What happens with logarithms as the *base* approaches infinity? < 1265473541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the function "f(n) = lim_{a->+inf} log_a( n )" is the constant function 0, i think < 1265473608 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also think in the interval [1, inf) we have uniform convergence, but my head hurts a bit too much now to be sure < 1265473676 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-179.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265473677 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, prolly not. < 1265473712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If n = number of bits in the number then trial division is O(2^(n/2)) (Wikipedia), which I guess is where the non-P-ness comes from. < 1265473806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265473885 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265473908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why can't you have negative arguments to log? I mean, y = log_a(x) means the same as a^y = x right? And in the latter you can get negative x. < 1265473936 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and e^x > 0 for real x < 1265473937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a=-4 and y=3 < 1265474011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-4)^3 = -64 Thus shouldn't 3 = log_{-4}(-64) ? < 1265474087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So -64 takes 3 digits to represent in base -4? Noted. < 1265474110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a negative base, it makes no sense to give the log any arguments except naturals afaik < 1265474112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yeah, when you think of logarithms that way it doesn't really work out ;P < 1265474127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it true though? < 1265474130 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For general negative x, y is complex < 1265474140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And non-unique < 1265474145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm? (-2)^(-1/2) gives an imaginary answer, doesn't it? < 1265474175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abc in base n is just (((a*n)+b)*n)+c < 1265474191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be more precise, isn't it ((sqrt(2))^-1)i < 1265474229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ah, the lack of uniqueness could indeed cause issues < 1265474290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm okay i'm not sure what i was thinking < 1265474307 0 :MissPiggy!~e@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265474315 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehisrd < 1265474320 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://pastie.org/812459.txt?key=cadkhg4ho0qiceepz1a7w < 1265474328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but then sqrt(n) really isn't unique either, except it is defined to be the positive value. Which is why you for the solution to x^2 = 4 would write x=+/- 2 < 1265474330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The expression problem, explained simply. < 1265474342 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird iI think I can give nice solution < 1265474353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you so excited you can't type? :P < 1265474354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes essential use dependendt types < 1265474361 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no this sthing is qwerty < 1265474362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265474365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah lol < 1265474367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265474377 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am on my moms computer because I got fed up with this installer < 1265474379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, which layout normally? < 1265474384 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :colemak < 1265474387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265474397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: As I see it, the problem is defining log_a(x) so that it gives the appropriate real result for negative x, but is undefined when no such value exists < 1265474439 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird you know lists < 1265474447 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excpet backwards... < 1265474453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] :: a :: b :: c < 1265474458 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265474460 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent < 1265474465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the type of c can depend on the tail of the list < 1265474473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the head you mean < 1265474477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265474478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head::tail < 1265474482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are we still calling it the tail < 1265474485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just having tail::head < 1265474486 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: log_a(x) would be defined when: x > 0 & a > 1 or x < 0 & a < 0 & what < 1265474509 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you coulld have xs :: x, then x : Vector (length xs) < 1265474510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? Two things there: 1) why must it be a real value? 2) undefinedness in some points doesn't sound too bad, after all x^-1 is undefined for x = 0 (defined in all other points afaik) < 1265474522 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 1) if you want it to be complex, that's already been done. < 1265474535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get [] :: () :: (a) :: (x y) :: (p q r) < 1265474540 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ln(-1) = i pi < 1265474544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=set < 1265474544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1265474557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For 2), sure, but what's the definition < 1265474559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so similar to this, instead of making a triangle ou could make a matrix < 1265474566 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by adding rows and cols to it < 1265474570 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1265474578 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone got introduction to algorithms 3e? < 1265474578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 1) hm right 2) what? < 1265474579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: interesting! < 1265474589 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What I just said < 1265474591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does it work for any type? i don't think so < 1265474594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to define it to work < 1265474600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, isn't it undefined due to x^-1 = 1/x and division with zero being undefined? < 1265474602 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure, you can let it be undefined for some values, but what are those values < 1265474609 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the actual elements of each row/col would have a type computed based on the recursion structure of the function in that column against the fold for the type of that row < 1265474633 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird anyway that's just the idea.. I'll try and write it out and see if it works < 1265474636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Huh? e^(i pi) = -1 < 1265474663 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: If that works it's really cool < 1265474663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think we are talking about two different things here. with regards to 2). < 1265474675 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^..^ < 1265474680 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on < 1265474682 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone has to < 1265474683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Didn't "sure, but what's the definition" refer to the bit "x^-1 is undefined for x = 0"? < 1265474697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265474697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1265474700 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I meant what would the definition of log_a(x) be < 1265474709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I read "what" as "that" -_- < 1265474712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what values of a and x would it be defined for < 1265474730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as in, you claimed x^-1 was undefined for x=0 due to being defined that way XD < 1265474741 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, no. :-P < 1265474761 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although that's sort of true too.) < 1265474770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1265474814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^-n is defined as 1/x^n for x != 0, n > 0 < 1265474856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you can define the function to have any value you want, you just can't make a field have a meaningful multiplicative inverse for 0 < 1265474865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, forgot that was by definition rather than as a consequence of something else < 1265474878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's a consequence of what i said < 1265474893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it's defined that way < 1265474895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but a lot of math wouldn't work if it wasn't defined like that though. < 1265474954 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it's unnecessary or anything. < 1265474983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(differentiation of expressions like x^(1/3) comes to mind) < 1265474995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm is it an axiom then? < 1265475007 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just a definition. < 1265475017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1265475120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't it radically change the "rule" that (x^a)' = a*x^(a-1) though if that definition of negative exponents didn't exist? < 1265475141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrrm, maybe it could be defined in some other way for when a<1 in that case < 1265475155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x^a)' = a*x^(a-1) < 1265475159 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in no point but 0 could that change < 1265475165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1265475174 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's two kinds of differentiation < 1265475194 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is where you differentiate a function, like the function x |--> x^a < 1265475222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other is where you differentiate 'formally', like it's just some kind of symbolic operation on syntax < 1265475230 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you get dxdx = 0, dxdy = -dydx < 1265475238 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird as fuck.... < 1265475272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are natural ways to interpret those, even without infitesimals < 1265475290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to be honest i'm not sure i understand them < 1265475305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I always distrust math that treats dx and dy as if you could treat them like a normal variable. For a start; they consist of more than one letter! ;P < 1265475312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ... it gives the right answer in the end < 1265475314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/;/:/ < 1265475322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d isn't a letter though < 1265475322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formal differentiation is usually an operation defined for polynomials defined just like differentiation usually works for polynomials < 1265475331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d is a magical operation and it isn't even the letter d! < 1265475336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i consider d an operation, prolly cause i'm stupid < 1265475344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, it's a transformation on variables < 1265475355 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(u+v) = du+dv < 1265475366 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d(uv)=du*v + u*dv < 1265475371 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that < 1265475484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I highly distrust how integration by substitution due to the way it treats dx. Stuff like dx/dt=t' leading to dx=t'dt :/ < 1265475502 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a mnemonic < 1265475506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes I know that < 1265475518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you know integration by substitution < 1265475522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still creeps me out though < 1265475524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an idea about that < 1265475546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intergration by substitution works as follows: substitute something for x. < 1265475547 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (x,y,z) is one coordinate system (u,v,w,...) is another, then you make a pullbacn < 1265475552 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pullback < 1265475567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I have a test in a course about integration in two weeks time. Err make that integration and differential equations even. < 1265475606 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the idea is that you can transform forms like Adx+Bdy+Cdz into a du,dv,dw.. form < 1265475618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what? < 1265475638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, wait, is that integration in more than one variable? < 1265475649 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265475676 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can interate over dx,dy,dz, or dydz,dxdz,dydx or dxdydz < 1265475681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I don't read that much math when studying CS. At least not during the first year < 1265475694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which corresponds to the curves, surfaces and volumes < 1265475719 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course 3D is just one special case of nD < 1265475768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well yes, I am aware of that it is possible to do integration in more than one variable. I don't know how however. < 1265475819 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well theres this theorem that relates integration over a boundry to integration over the volume itsselt < 1265475819 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you have a function from an n-dimensional rectangle to reals, just integrate one axis at a time < 1265475845 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all pretty nebulous and convoluted.. I'm still trying to figure it out myself < 1265475846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1265475854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean integrate along one axis, and at each point integrate over the (n-1)-dimensional rectangle < 1265475858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :corresponding to that point < 1265475911 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265475916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, like ∫(∫(∫...dz)dy)dx? or something like that? < 1265475928 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanna integrate a function from some more complex thing, you usually use substitution so you can integrate on a rectangle < 1265475937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah something like that < 1265475965 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fubini's theorem says you can integrate along the axes separately, and order matters not < 1265475968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I mean: do they go inside each other, instead of, say, being multiplied with each other or some other operation to combine them < 1265475975 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside of each other < 1265475979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265476003 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah is that fubini's theorem < 1265476009 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should know that.... < 1265476028 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1265476033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, seems like a PITA to calculate though < 1265476053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(considering what a PITA integrals in one variable is) < 1265476060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have n axes, you have to solve n integrals < 1265476060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/is/are/ < 1265476076 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often some of them are just multiplication < 1265476108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oh? "often" as in "often in exams" or "often in real world applications"? < 1265476167 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you're integrating f(x, y) = x over [0,1]x[0,1], you'd have int_{x from 0 to 1}( int_{y from 0 to 1} x ), so you just get int_{x from 0 to 1} ( x ), because you're integrating the *constant* x over y < 1265476202 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're integrating an expression that doesn't depend on y over variable y, then it's just multiplication < 1265476207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know anything about the real world < 1265476214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or calculus, for that matter < 1265476284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In real world you just integrate numerically and forgot all that symbol-manipulation nonsense. (Okay, so maybe not *quite*...) < 1265476291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, also, as far as I have understood it, ∫(f(x)*g(x))dx can't be solved for _all_ f and g where both ∫f(x)dx and ∫g(x)dx can be solved. Except with numerical methods that is. < 1265476301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you can solve it for many such products < 1265476324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was in reply to " often some of them are just multiplication") < 1265476348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah < 1265476350 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah okay you completely misunderstood then < 1265476366 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reread "oklopol: if you're integrating ..." < 1265476399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, yes, I was so busy writing that line to be correct, I hadn't noticed any line after " oklopol, oh? "often" as in [...]" < 1265476407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int_{y from a to b}( x ) is integrating a constant from a to b, so you just get (b - a)x < 1265476450 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often the expression is only nontrivial to integrate over one axis (in homework problems that is :P) < 1265476491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int_{y from a to b}( x ) <-- I can't say I'm familiar with that syntax. It looks like pseudo-latex though. < 1265476521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even int y a b (x) should be obvious < 1265476544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, to be more specific: I'm unable to detect any dx or dy indicating which variable you are integrating to < 1265476554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that would be y < 1265476556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, "integrating with respect to" < 1265476557 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't use d's < 1265476581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, then that line makes perfect sense yes < 1265476616 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be (b - a)y then, not (b - a)x. < 1265476644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what would be? < 1265476668 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, right, I read that exactly upside-down. < 1265476675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err wait... the x would still be there as well, no? wouldn't it be x*(b-a)*y < 1265476678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is not necessarily even bound after the integral, and okay < 1265476690 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8| < 1265476704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, nvm < 1265476704 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: y means nothing except inside that integral. < 1265476716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I forgot that it wasn't an indefinite integral < 1265476718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xb - xa. < 1265476734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is what gives (b-a) indeed < 1265476742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what does it have to do with this that it's indefinite? < 1265476818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, unless I'm completely confused by now: ∫xdy = ∫(x*1)dy = x*∫1dy = x*y < 1265476829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i mean apart from the fact it's not one) < 1265476842 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just write < 1265476844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265476850 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∫dx < 1265476852 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, for an indefinite integral that's correct. < 1265476856 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't need ∫1dx < 1265476879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well yes. I added the 1 to make it clear what I meant though. < 1265476888 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265476898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for an definite one then y turns into (b-a) < 1265476908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∫_A dxdydz is the volume of A < 1265476918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ^ < 1265476933 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I am aware. < 1265476947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, but looks like oklopol got confused: < 1265476949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : y is what gives (b-a) indeed < 1265476949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...what does it have to do with this that it's indefinite? < 1265476981 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was confused, didn't see why it's relevant that the definite integral was indefinite < 1265476987 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So why are you talking to me and not him? < 1265476989 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it wasn't true < 1265476989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, my point was that I forgot it _wasn't_ indefinite < 1265476994 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265477010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AnMaster: oklopol, I forgot that it wasn't an indefinite integral" misread < 1265477017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well: both since you highlighted me ;P < 1265477062 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly because he didn't respond < 1265477094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err? he did? " oh" 8 seconds before that highlight? < 1265477123 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't sure if that was a response :-P < 1265477132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realized what he meant < 1265477151 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and continued watching simpsons < 1265477152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I couldn't see what other interpretation would make any sense though < 1265477224 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265477259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: definite integrals from 1 to infinity (or similar) are creepy. < 1265477259 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should sleep < 1265477309 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265477371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's creepy about them? < 1265477380 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265477418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't it something like the integral of 1/x from 1 to inf went to infinity. But if you rotated the curve that is formed by that function around the x axis and integrated to find the volume of it, then it result in some finite number? But if you tried to find the area of that body, it went towards infinity < 1265477435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that old thing < 1265477436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember if it was 1/x or 1/(x^2). Something like that anyway < 1265477445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about the same thing in one less dimension < 1265477456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm? < 1265477458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have the curve 1/x^2 or something < 1265477463 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the are under it is finite < 1265477467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the actual line is infinite < 1265477468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1265477470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOW < 1265477474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*area < 1265477478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is creepy too. But not quite as creepy < 1265477487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there's the paint argument < 1265477493 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1265477498 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you pour paint into the infinite tube < 1265477501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll fill up < 1265477503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, Yes I heard that < 1265477512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can never actually paint it < 1265477513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wouldn't be enough to paint the sides < 1265477516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1265477516 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265477536 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is this makes absolutely no sense as an analogy < 1265477555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you'd be painting it with some constant thickness of paint < 1265477592 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously you'll be using much more paint toe paint it than to fill it, after a whi < 1265477604 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to paint it *while < 1265477610 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wild mouse) < 1265477692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, about that thickness: you could get it go towards zero. < 1265477717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(makes as much sense at the rest...) < 1265477732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265477737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, there are several creepy bits here: 1) that an integral from n to infinity can give a finite value (where n is a finite number). 2) that you get finite volume and infinite area. < 1265477740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the amount of paint would also be finite < 1265477756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for 1), that is excluding the integral of f(x)=0 < 1265477815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or functions that not only approach zero, but actually reach it and then stay there. < 1265477820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds about as creepy as "two numbers can add up to a third one" < 1265477821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at some finite point < 1265477830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm? < 1265477885 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just does not sound creepy < 1265477925 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: they CAN?!?!?!? < 1265477931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, okay to be more exact: a function f(x) with the property that "f(x)>0 for all x" can (sometimes) when integrated from a finite number n to infinity have a finite integral < 1265477936 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: they can, and they *will* :| < 1265477944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, how is that not creepy? < 1265477960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure you know what creepy means < 1265478023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it sound creepy that we can have an infinite set all of whose elements are positive, but for which there is such a real number r that for all finite subsets of our set, the sum of that set is less than r? < 1265478034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is what the whole thing reduces to < 1265478048 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sum of that subset < 1265478054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't use words for stuff like that < 1265478085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm? It seems to contradict intuition of reality. Yes I know that intuition is quite often wrong. Still results in a creepy feeling for some cases of it. < 1265478189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that way to express it is too abstract (to me at least) to visualise it. < 1265478213 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means you take your integral and round things up < 1265478216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why visualise it < 1265478222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get an infinite amount of numbers < 1265478226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of which are positive < 1265478258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you know anything about series, you can see this infinite amount of numbers can have such an upper bound < 1265478265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, but try imaging this integral in terms of area < 1265478283 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always imagine infinite sums in terms of area < 1265478295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say i have a sum of 2^n for n = 0, 1, ... < 1265478298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines a function which asymptotically approaches 0. < 1265478305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just start stacking them up < 1265478309 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i see their sum is 2 < 1265478362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, so you feel perfectly comfortable on all levels with the fact that an area A limited by two infinitely long sides can be finite? < 1265478364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably 2^-n < 1265478395 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265478424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sure, i even feel comfortable with defining "area" of that to be a frog < 1265478445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the < 1265478449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, har. < 1265478456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was not a joke < 1265478459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negative bases are awesome < 1265478461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signs are rubbish < 1265478474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no connection between mathematical areas and the real worls < 1265478476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*world < 1265478480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes there is < 1265478480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, balanced -ternary? < 1265478483 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no ther eisn't < 1265478485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_base < 1265478486 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there isn't < 1265478515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where - is a minus sign of course < 1265478592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, then how do you explain that finite real world and math areas seem quite often to match up? < 1265478606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Holes/Holes.pdf < 1265478608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is awesome < 1265478632 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because we constructed them to be vaguely similar to the real world at first < 1265478644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they model the real world well; obviously i didn't mean what i said < 1265478647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :matheamtics has no inherent existence, it's just single-manipulation we dreamed up < 1265478650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it was completely true < 1265478660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes. < 1265478684 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics is real < 1265478712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your definition of "real" is strange. < 1265478715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, unless it is complex (or quaternionius or whatever) < 1265478724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not exist physically, and abstract concepts do not really "exist" as such, they only exist insofar as operations on them. < 1265478725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265478733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the geometry of our world isn't the same as R^n, it's just one approximation of it < 1265478736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the symbol manipulation was all invented by us. There's no inherent existence of mathematics. < 1265478738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"quaternionius" sound incredibly awkward < 1265478739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The universe does not have mathematics. We do. < 1265478750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sounds like a good name for a fictional character. < 1265478753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quaternionius. < 1265478759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what genre? < 1265478764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHO KNOWS < 1265478813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what about fractals? Comfortable with them too? < 1265478863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is uncomfortable with a lot of very simple things. < 1265478863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm does a balanced negative base even make sense? < 1265478869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no one's saying mathematics isn't real, because that's not really a question, but according to modern physics we do not live in R^3, although a nice model of physics can be constructed by saying particles are points in R^3 < 1265478892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what definition of fractal? < 1265478908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree with what you are saying about geometry < 1265478931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not all that comfortable with sets whose hausdorff dimension is not a natural number, they are usually really scary < 1265479006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm. < 1265479015 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265479076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, also I'm no expert on fractals, not sure what you mean with definition of fractal here. The bit that defines a specific fractal? < 1265479113 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Definition of fractal" can't really mean more than one thing < 1265479144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1265479162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hausdorff measures are a way to measure sizes of sets, just like jordan measures and lebesque measures, jordan being the simplest one; hausdorff measures take as argument the "dimension" of the set you're measuring, for instance if you draw a line in R^3, it's 1-dimensional measure can be finite, although it's 3d-measure is clearly 0 < 1265479196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could think of two things: a) definition of a given fractal b) definition of what a fractal in general is. < 1265479211 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Definition of fractal" can't mean a) < 1265479217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hausdorff dimension of a set is such a real number that the hausdorff measure of the set, with that dimension, is not zero or infinite < 1265479219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if possible < 1265479225 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Definition of x" where x is known to be a fractal does < 1265479239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now fractals, afaik, are defined as sets whose hausdorff dimension is not a natural number < 1265479276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a common way to construct such sets is through these recursive thingamajigs < 1265479293 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are probably a more common definition for a fractal < 1265479340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what i'm saying is i'm comfortable with drawing things recursively, but sure, some complex sets are pretty scary < 1265479347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes recursive algorithms is the most common way to define a fractal that I have seen < 1265479352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not the only way < 1265479369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, a given fractal < 1265479383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so everything is a fractal that can be computed using recursion, or what exactly? < 1265479403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, not afaik. < 1265479407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a question by which i mean that's a crappy definition, the hausdorff one is sexy < 1265479429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I did know a bit about the dimension thing < 1265479433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MissPiggy < 1265479477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean, you knew we can embed k-dimensional objects in n-dimentional space? < 1265479495 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dimensional < 1265479547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what ehird said about common creepyness above: by that logic complex numbers should be creepy. But they aren't IMO < 1265479624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what do you mean, you knew we can embed k-dimensional objects in n-dimentional space? <-- I knew that fractals had a non-natural number dimension. < 1265479658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? cool. < 1265479668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i hope you also know not all do) < 1265479704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm? < 1265479716 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well err < 1265479735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if you use the definition "thing you can draw using some sorta recursino" < 1265479738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*recursion < 1265479740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265479804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well that includes things that aren't fractal clearly. Such as: f(x,y) = draw a straight line of length 1 jonined up to f(x+1,y) < 1265479810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or something like it) < 1265479820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265479839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, while recursive, would give you a straight line starting at a given point and then going on forever < 1265479906 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sexiest thing about hausdorff dimensions is you don't have need to be working with real numbers < 1265479912 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just any metric space < 1265479915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what about requiring more operations for each step (alt: you recurse more than once at a given level) < 1265479931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most (all?) fractals seems to be like that? < 1265480006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "f(L) = divide the line L in 3, remove middle, call the other two L1 and L2, f(L1), f(L2)" < 1265480020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, is that a fractal, or just something similar? < 1265480022 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :koch snowflake < 1265480028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265480037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the cantor set < 1265480046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you come up with that? < 1265480055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I know that algorithm is a classical one < 1265480059 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you did, you could've been famous! < 1265480060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265480061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't remember the name of it < 1265480078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also called cantor's dust, it has useful properties < 1265480091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, name is indeed familiar when you mention it < 1265480103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, anyway, what is the dimensionality of it < 1265480132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the cs's are homeomorphic (the ones obtained by different sorts of splits into three parts), but some leave you with zero measure, some have finite < 1265480139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with lebesque measure) < 1265480149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1265480152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homeomorphic lebesques. < 1265480160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, XD < 1265480161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they have porn of those. < 1265480208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Higher math is actually all porn behind the scenes < 1265480212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: " koch snowflake" <-- that's the one you add in a triangle (well, two sides of one) in the middle, right? < 1265480213 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if the hausdorff dimension goes down and measure goes up for some splits, you'd have to ask someone who actually know about this stuff < 1265480231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265480242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homeomorphic lebesques functoring. < 1265480279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bona fide elements of ∅ are hard to come by, so we may safely offer to exchange them for anything you might care to want: as you will be paying with bogus currency, you cannot object to our shoddy merchandise." < 1265480332 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265480343 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265480374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that quote is one truly awful joke... < 1265480400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is it from? < 1265480411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not so much a joke as colourful wordplay. < 1265480434 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/Holes/Holes.pdf, a paper that begins: < 1265480434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, maybe calling it "joke" was stretching things a bit ;P < 1265480438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abstract < 1265480441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mornington Crescent < 1265480443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 Introduction < 1265480446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The purpose of this paper is not only self-citation (McBride, 2001; McBride & Paterson, 2006), ... < 1265480454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, the abstract is actually "Mornington Crescent".) < 1265480463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265480522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the language used, which one is it? haskell? < 1265480536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some parts of it look quite similar at least from a quick glance < 1265480849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell with a few bits of do-what-i-mean. < 1265480859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In < 1265480863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naughtE :: ∅ → a < 1265480864 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naughtE = ⊥ < 1265480866 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, < 1265480873 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥ would be an operator and thus not valid like that < 1265480884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it doesn't matter because it's a paper, not a program. :P < 1265480898 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265480906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And they don't actually, you know, define ⊥.) < 1265481045 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265481046 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265481075 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265481137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1265481143 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, she forgot language < 1265481158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lambek calculus was designed for grammatical structures. < 1265481294 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur returns to the discussion, just in time for me to wake up < 1265481301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey :p < 1265481317 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ಠ_ಠ < 1265481325 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hai < 1265481448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah < 1265481549 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, i think you're naughtE < 1265481672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waves at folk < 1265482299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey pikhq < 1265482353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey. < 1265483184 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1265483244 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if ehird is going to read FS soon < 1265483455 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im having an email convo with noam chomsky D: < 1265483455 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265483457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1265483954 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1265484022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[18:32] you're right, she forgot language < 1265484022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he < 1265484027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: really? < 1265484028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1265484060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: misspiggy is not a boy. < 1265484066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's fax. < 1265484068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka soupdragon < 1265484071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fax is a girl. < 1265484078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fairly sure i've heard otherwise < 1265484094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If using a female nickname one should expect female pronouns. < 1265484102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well we'll ask just to confirm ;P < 1265484116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: indeed, tho, yes. lambek calculus _is_ a theory of grammar. < 1265484142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Joachim Lambek proposed the first noncommutative logic in his 1958 paper Mathematics of Sentence Structure to model the combinatory possibilities of the syntax of natural languages. His calculus has thus become one of the fundamental formalisms of computational linguistics." < 1265484143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alice < 1265484145 0 :alice!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In wonderland. < 1265484148 0 :alice!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw, taken. < 1265484157 0 :alice!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1265484277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what's your evidence that fax is a girl? my evidence that e is male is: one, probability; the vast majority of this channel is male - in fact, I believe there are no females currently in here, and a vague recollection of some sort of data meaning he was male, but my memory is terribly fuzzy when it comes to this place; so much talk, so little time. < 1265484287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my evidence is that she told me so. < 1265484311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe shes a transgirl, however, hence the potential confusion. < 1265484326 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how ehird will/would react to the RoboZZle addiction in here < 1265484335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: ah. < 1265484358 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats up sweeties? < 1265484365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe transman? i have no clue about the details, honestly. < 1265484383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i know is that fax/soupdragon/misspiggy is smart and interested in CS and linguistics < 1265484388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and therefore has become a good friend. < 1265484393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: WHOS YOU < 1265484397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i think we've had more transgirls here than cisgendered females < 1265484399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DONT CHEAT ME < 1265484420 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're a transgirl. < 1265484428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. no i'm not < 1265484429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho maybe not intentionally :X < 1265484436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my gender is 0.5 :P < 1265484446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1265484453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird is genderqueer! < 1265484522 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i am you < 1265484527 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1265484529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1265484531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god programming languages are sexy :| < 1265484535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes out with himself < 1265484540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i be typesexual < 1265484545 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming languages are transgender < 1265484557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you're into programming languages with strict typing < 1265484564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ofcourse means lots of leather and whips < 1265484569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was about to - < 1265484608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm going to stick with this name for a while, see how many people treat me differently because they think i have ovaries < 1265484637 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wont < 1265484639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate ovaries < 1265484657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're still ehird, and ovaries wont make you most spiteful < 1265484663 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more* < 1265484670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I was thinking about what to call the empty type, right, and I thought hey, I could use ∅ *and* have it be used by sequence/collection/whatever. I just have to make Set (or Type or whatever) an instance of it! But that won't work, because there'll be operations like cons :: a -> sequence a -> sequence a which doesn't make sense because one, sets/types don't have element types < 1265484672 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you have 'introduction to algorithms' 3 ed for me? < 1265484686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and two, they're not really a concrete collection of values < 1265484691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm back to square one < 1265484694 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: what? < 1265484713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: call it Empty. thats what the dependent type people call it. < 1265484717 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am looking for the book called what i just mentioned, augur < 1265484725 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: ill try! < 1265484735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I *am* a dependent type person! < 1265484742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: but I'm also a Unicode whore. < 1265484752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265484758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use an epsilon < 1265484773 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∅ should be reserved for actual {}'s < 1265484787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but epsilon is "arbitrarily small", not "length one" < 1265484791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ε is occasionally used for the empty string, but < 1265484792 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: 2ed gives minus 50 points < 1265484813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you think ∅ is acceptable for any sequence, though? < 1265484828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lists, concrete sets (actual {}s, as you put it), associative maps, etc. < 1265484830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, its not a sequence < 1265484839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a convenient and pretty notation < 1265484853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 ∷ 2 ∷ 3 ∷ ∅ < 1265484878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait < 1265484884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i want isn't "arbitrarily small" < 1265484886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want "empty" < 1265484892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epsilon isn't empty, it's arbitrarily small < 1265484908 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its the empty string in formal language theory! < 1265484910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relatedly, what should I call the unit type? maybe a circle < 1265484913 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: i only have the second edition :( < 1265484924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cant find the 3rd edition anywhere < 1265484926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: don't get me wrong, I don't care about total mathematical notation faithfulness < 1265484929 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you don't want minus 50 points, do you? < 1265484930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: unit type should be a fancy 1 < 1265484931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't want it to *confuse* mathematicians < 1265484936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: heh < 1265484939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: find me a fancy one and it's done < 1265484946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: blackboard 1 would work, to fit in with sets like N < 1265484958 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well lets see what unicode gives us < 1265485011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disregard ∷ ∀a. a → ○ < 1265485012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disregard x = ○ < 1265485038 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1⒈①❶➀➊⓵⑴Ⅰⅰ < 1265485048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, ➀ < 1265485056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :○ > ➀ imo < 1265485060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :☝ < 1265485075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not a rude gesture. < 1265485090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i had one more finger it would be < 1265485091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZAL҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̕̚͡ ̒̓̔̕̚GO he cometh. < 1265485091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1265485107 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like the ring tho < 1265485108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ring is nice < 1265485138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZAL҉̵̞̟̠̖̗̘̙̜̝͇̊̋̌̍̎̏̐̑̒̓̔̿̕̚͡ ̒̓̔̕̚GO is ta∵∵si∵∵ < 1265485243 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⦶⦸⦼⧃⧂ < 1265485249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check it out, im writing in naboo-an! < 1265485261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :○ is nice because it's like () but without the tupley implications < 1265485264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it isn't really tupley < 1265485269 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1265485278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main ∷ Partial (IO ○) < 1265485295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⦾ < 1265485307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⨀ < 1265485317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⇄ would be a good unicode name for IO. < 1265485320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊙⊚ < 1265485328 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i think it doesn't exist :( < 1265485330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main ∷ Partial (⇄ ○) < 1265485338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: your second-last line is just a boob. < 1265485346 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: it does, published in like september last year or something < 1265485359 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur thats not the kind of exist that i meant < 1265485363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⨴ can denote partial < 1265485374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⨴ (⇄ ○) < 1265485378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see that < 1265485392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its part of a circle! < 1265485394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplication sign in left half circle < 1265485395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265485405 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you guys using squares all the time < 1265485412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're using unicode < 1265485413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're not < 1265485416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GTFO < 1265485419 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am using xchat < 1265485423 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest version < 1265485432 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are you talking about < 1265485433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/25d6/index.htm < 1265485442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't do Unicode, then it sucks balls. < 1265485443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: one, stop using windows < 1265485444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two, get fonts < 1265485447 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i make xchat use unicode more than it does already < 1265485448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three, set encoding to utf-8 < 1265485455 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i set encoding < 1265485460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :press alt-f4. < 1265485478 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alttttttttttttttffffffff44444 < 1265485481 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesnt work < 1265485486 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cant reach the minus < 1265485489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autodefenestrate < 1265485531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: Weak. < 1265485587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pikhq < 1265485597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to use _ for my multifix operator placeholder character < 1265485601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh you may not know what multifix is < 1265485607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: multifix lets you define operators like this < 1265485613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if_then_else_ < 1265485622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[_] < 1265485623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(_) < 1265485637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_therefore_CHICKENPOX$_okay_okay < 1265485639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used as: < 1265485644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if poo then bar else lux < 1265485646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[bok] < 1265485649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wammy) < 1265485664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mints therefore (death is okay) CHICKENPOX$ whoa okay (2+2) okay < 1265485676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, even less special syntax. < 1265485691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ_._ < 1265485691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1265485692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a lambda! < 1265485697 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i would like to stand up to your expectations but i cannot. :( < 1265485699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but I don't want to use _ for it because you should be able to use that in names < 1265485705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unicode is acceptable, even encouraged) < 1265485736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not sure; that's hard to pick... < 1265485784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used the boob character, ⨀, but it just didn't really look very good < 1265485786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if⨀then⨀else⨀ < 1265485795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ⨀.⨀ < 1265485800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Some sort of question mark would work < 1265485954 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guys try those squares again pls < 1265485958 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ※ then ※ else ※ < 1265485963 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, doesn't work < 1265485971 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try again? < 1265485985 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: you also need a good font or an IRC client that does font substitution properly < 1265485994 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265485999 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: try once again < 1265486003 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :‽℀℘ℋ₨áóíúéμ < 1265486009 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, still squares < 1265486009 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/RETURN <-- made an interpreter in python < 1265486010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: no spaces < 1265486022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if※then※else※ < 1265486025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like a holocaust < 1265486027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265486032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if BOOM then BOOM else BOOM < 1265486039 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw: interrobang, a/c, some weird p, some weirder H, Rs, 'a, 'o, 'i, 'u, 'e, mu. < 1265486041 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: i am using xchat, is that not a good client for that? < 1265486053 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: try setting the encoding to UTF-8 < 1265486053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what has ℀ got to do with anything? < 1265486064 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, Asztal: i tried doing /charset IRC and /charset UTF-8 < 1265486072 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both do not work < 1265486074 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww :/ i guess you might be lacking fonts then < 1265486087 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do i get unicode fontz for my windoze? < 1265486103 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idunno, all i can say is you can get them with linux < 1265486108 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or FreeBSD, even < 1265486136 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest you look at that python interpreter, the idea is really scary < 1265486176 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try this < 1265486177 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Courier New – 2726 characters (3151 glyphs) in version 5.00 < 1265486217 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh... AFAIK X11 rips chars from other fonts < 1265486219 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you couldn't see áéíóú that's an indication that it's not a font issue < 1265486224 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anything's missing < 1265486246 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: i could see that < 1265486249 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you couldn't see ☭ that's an indication that it's probably a capitalism issue < 1265486252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: stop using windows. :) < 1265486253 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: but i could not see the 5 to the left of that < 1265486257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if☭then☭else☭ < 1265486258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: Yeah, X11 makes a best-effort to display everything, even if it is ugly as hell. < 1265486261 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: stop being a transgirl :) < 1265486271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider it done < 1265486273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: not on my usual baux < 1265486278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, baux) < 1265486298 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: don't upgrade, pulseaudio in ubuntu 9.10 is extremely crappy < 1265486310 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i removed it with force < 1265486314 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...actually, with apt-get remove < 1265486320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like 9.10, but this isn't my machine < 1265486324 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also esound is broken too < 1265486325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hasn't been upgraded only out of laziness < 1265486328 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmkay < 1265486332 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my desktop runs freeBSD < 1265486345 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if¤then¤else¤ < 1265486351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally i run os x, which you can criticise for many reasons but excellent display of unicode text is not one of them < 1265486351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My desktop still runs 7.04 < 1265486360 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh freebsd has the best sound system for unix ever: newpcm < 1265486378 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like multi-application OSS < 1265486404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: we have that it's called ossv4 < 1265486434 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i heard that was the one that was single-app-only... hmm < 1265486445 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was one which did MIDI and one which did multi-app < 1265486465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ossv3, old oss, is single-app < 1265486470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ossv4, which is new and not in the kernel, isn't < 1265486474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i'm mistaken < 1265486481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's kernelspace just not in the mainline kernel) < 1265486610 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, this isn't my desktop < 1265486617 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rarely even use my desktop anymore < 1265486624 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only when I want to get old files off of it < 1265486633 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the slowest installer ever < 1265486639 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :microsoft word viewer 97 or something < 1265486647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: perhaps a solid middle dot would work < 1265486650 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get AbiWord? < 1265486651 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265486655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Perhaps. < 1265486658 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guys try the squares again < 1265486662 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pls < 1265486671 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :最↓→ð < 1265486672 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps < 1265486675 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works < 1265486677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: also, harddrive sizes are not a marketing conspiracy. < 1265486680 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didnt even need to restart < 1265486682 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ‽℀℘ℋ₨áóíúéμ < 1265486686 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this did not work < 1265486698 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuils? < 1265486700 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see 5 squares and then 5 letters with diacrytics < 1265486709 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then \mi < 1265486714 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or \mu or whatever that is < 1265486714 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i reckon it's just being cheap < 1265486720 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1265486750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: http://www.tarsnap.com/GB-why.html < 1265486759 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265486763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater3: Don't even see interrobang? < 1265486776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd guess you don't get a gnaborretni, either. < 1265486793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G = 1000 is standard; you cannot change prefixes. the unit after a prefix cannot change a prefix; that is merely nonsensical. Furthermore, the decimal, standard version is in fact *more common* in computing than the binary one. < 1265486821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ki/Gi/Ti are the standard binary prefixes; it should be RAM, which is the main exception to the decimal rule, whose marketing changes. < 1265486829 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't run 2.2GB processors, we run 2.2GHz. < 1265486844 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 Gbps Ethernet transmits data at... 10^9 bits per second < that's also stupid. < 1265486846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please LART gm|lap, for he believes that units change their prefixes. < 1265486859 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was always 2^10 B for a KB < 1265486870 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 2.4GHz band which wireless ethernet operates within lies... between 2.4 x 10^9 and 2.5 x 10^9 Hz <-- likewise, not a byte. < 1265486880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: And it was fucking wrong. < 1265486892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop making things fucking wrong. < 1265486906 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop making things so damn cheapass < 1265486910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complaining about hard-drive makers using SI prefixes is the wonderful domain of idiots who like to appear smarmy and pedantic without actually caring about being correct. < 1265486923 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265486926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: I will quote from the page you apparently didn't read. < 1265486928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hard drive prices are determined almost entirely by competition between manufacturers, so if hard drives were labelled in GiB instead of being labelled in GB, we'd be paying the same number of dollars for the same number of bytes anyway — if this really was a global conspiracy, it would be one of the dumbest conspiracies ever." < 1265486949 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: I will agree with you in one thing, though -- hard drives should be labelled in GiB. < 1265486958 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-179.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265486966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because they should be SSDs. < 1265486969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, that does not mean a gigabyte is 2^10 megabytes. < 1265486975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or mebibytes, for that matter) < 1265486977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which are flash memory, which is addressed in silicon, so you get powers of two. < 1265486987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSDs: Sexually Satisfying Disk < 1265486989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1265486990 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :megafael < 1265487000 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i restarted xchat and it said the 30 day evaluation is over < 1265487003 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i had to restart it < 1265487014 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought this was free open source software, wtf < 1265487020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, the Windows build isn't. < 1265487023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use Silverex, or not Windows. < 1265487029 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guys try some unicode again? < 1265487035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. :D < 1265487074 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://silverex.net/news IIRC < 1265487081 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1265487088 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This laptop has to be at least 3 years old < 1265487091 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not be unfriendly alise < 1265487095 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not nice < 1265487100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.silverex.org/news/ actually < 1265487108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: :'''''''''''''''''( < 1265487108 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is using Silverex < 1265487113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cry < 1265487131 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: can you try some unicode for me please? < 1265487146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should replace the ehird sighting in the topic with scarf sitings. anyone seen him recently? < 1265487199 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265487212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sightings < 1265487441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2237/index.htm < 1265487446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what it's actually supposed to b e < 1265487447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*be < 1265487451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"proportion" is unhelpful < 1265487491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: annoyingly unicode messes with layout :( < 1265487506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because characters that display as >1 character are still treated as one character < 1265487512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can't fit *every* character into a tiny space) < 1265487515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not without distortion) < 1265487521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :/ < 1265487526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solution, of course, is non-textual editing! :P < 1265487837 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ※ then ※ else ※ < 1265487842 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265487848 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if ※ then ※ else ※ < 1265487853 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this crap don't work < 1265487956 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1265487987 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265488001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi MissPiggy < 1265488005 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1265488014 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice name < 1265488033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so's your face :| < 1265488039 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why thank you < 1265488045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know rite < 1265488085 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just repartitioned and reinstalled my os < 1265488157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your solution to the expression problem, what if your type doesn't have any relevant dependicity? do you have to like put a dummy dependent thingy in to make it work? < 1265488169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you mean < 1265488178 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what type < 1265488179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really understand it so yeah < 1265488239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265488307 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265488312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you asking < 1265488342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265488345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you explain your solution to me < 1265488347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really grok it < 1265488369 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265488423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dyld: unknown required load command 0x80000022 < 1265488423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsh: trace trap ocaml < 1265488433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1265488435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy is an AI?! < 1265488439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :le gasp < 1265488452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you're using OCaml and zsh on OS X. < 1265488453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're surprised by this? < 1265488459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am so inferrerator < 1265488487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay anyway, < 1265488496 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is to make a data type a bit like this one: < 1265488515 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Snoc a where nil :: Snoc a ; cons :: Snoc a -> a -> Snoc a < 1265488539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god dammit < 1265488545 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Snoc a where nil :: Snoc a ; snoc :: Snoc a -> a -> Snoc a < 1265488555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya ya < 1265488567 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference, is that in snoc xs x, you let the type of x depend on xs < 1265488569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so perhaps < 1265488620 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Snoc f where ... ; snoc :: forall xs :: Snoc f, f xs -> Snoc f < 1265488641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you let f = const a, then it's equivalent to the old one < 1265488660 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you let f xs = Vector a (length xs),for example -- you get triangles < 1265488672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall xs :: Snoc f, f xs -> Snoc f < 1265488673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea is to use this to make matrices instead of triangles < 1265488674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this notation confuses me < 1265488694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just (xs :: Snoc f) -> (x :: f xs) -> Snoc f < 1265488697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use haskell notation like you've been doing but with (name::t)-style dependent type notation plz :P < 1265488699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265488699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1265488701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme write this out so far < 1265488723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what type is f? < 1265488727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a->a? < 1265488733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, a->Set < 1265488738 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f :: Snoc f -> Set < 1265488741 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265488752 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't worry about the type of f < 1265488761 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will probably become something else in the future < 1265488776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not Snoc f a < 1265488778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just Snoc f? < 1265488797 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah as I was writing Snoc f a I realized Snoc f subsumes it < 1265488808 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's no need for an a < 1265488816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: < 1265488822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Snoc :: (Snoc f -> Set) -> Set where < 1265488822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : nil :: Snoc f < 1265488826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cons :: (xs :: Snoc f) -> (x :: f xs) -> Snoc f < 1265488833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, let me say this in words < 1265488856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons takes a value of type Snoc f named xs, and a value of type (f xs) named x, and returns a Snoc f. < 1265488866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so f gets the rest of the list, and returns the relevant type < 1265488877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Snoc (const t) = Oldsnoc t < 1265488890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I see how this is cool < 1265488895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a polymorphic list of sorts < 1265488901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the type of the element depends on the rest of the list < 1265488927 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265488945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can formulate a type meaning "the integer x", you could have snoc nil 1, snoc (snoc nil 1) 2, etc. type < 1265488946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nothing else < 1265488948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, got it < 1265488952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how does this solve the expression problem? < 1265488954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what we could do is define something like < 1265488968 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROW < 1265488977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COL < 1265489003 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when you snoc a ROW on, it computes the number of elements you have to define, to add this row (and col similarly) < 1265489023 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way you can build up a NxM matrix starting from a 0x0 one < 1265489043 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at a first approximation that matrix could just have numbers in it, or whatever -- it doesn't really matter < 1265489066 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to solve the expression problem we will have to compute the type of the cell based on the function spec. < 1265489077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just details, the important bit is SNOCing on ROWs, and COLs < 1265489289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait < 1265489292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me catch up < 1265489295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot to read < 1265489300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so ROW and COL are data constructors < 1265489303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the same type or not < 1265489314 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think that they have to be of the same type < 1265489319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an issue is that < 1265489326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROW does not actually add rows < 1265489329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : + func1 | func2 | ... Foo x y | y | x ... Bar x y | x | y ... +-----------------... < 1265489330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265489334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo x y | y | x ... < 1265489335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bar x y | x | y ... < 1265489338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all Foos and all Bars are the same row < 1265489339 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROW adds a column < 1265489343 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and COL adds a row < 1265489345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265489346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1265489364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:43] so when you snoc a ROW on, it computes the number of elements you have to define, to add this row (and col similarly) i don't get what you mean by that < 1265489471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265489479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1265489484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me answer that question < 1265489509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a sec < 1265489515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I think an example would help, so < 1265489516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/812459.txt?key=cadkhg4ho0qiceepz1a7w < 1265489519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the unextended bit there < 1265489524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with Foo x y and Bar x y as the rows < 1265489527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and func1 and func2 as the columns < 1265489534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you write that, given your definitions? < 1265489549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose we wanted to define functions, eval, size and show on data Exp = Num Int | Add Exp Exp | Mul Exp Exp < 1265489581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265489585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can we use my example :P < 1265489591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to be rude, it's just that i understand mine < 1265489594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's very simple < 1265489612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of getting bogged down in details etc < 1265489759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :z < 1265489844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: think I should have inductively defined sets as in mathematical notation? < 1265489848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be convenient, dunno < 1265489864 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you start with the 0x0 matrix, [] `snoc` ROW "Num"*description of num () `snoc` Row "Add*description of add ()`snoc`COL eval (case for eval Num, case for eval Add)`snoc`ROW "Mul"*description of mul (case for eval Mul)`snoc`COL show (implementation of show for all 3 casese..) < 1265489871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read that sequentially and slowly :P < 1265489890 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can consider inductives as sets, but I don't < 1265489911 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you said something else completely < 1265489918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yerr, i don't understand that :( < 1265489920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can implement set theory in type theory < 1265489928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it for Foo/Bar/func1/func2? :P < 1265489935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's a description < 1265489944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and er you have an unterminated string < 1265489949 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just says whwat the type of the constructor is < 1265489992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1265490094 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we dont' program over the real data Expr = ... < 1265490108 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are actually making a program over a generic sort of datatype called a universe < 1265490114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but uh < 1265490119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ff < 1265490122 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so U is isomorphic to Nat < 1265490130 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and U is .... Expr < 1265490137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is * < 1265490140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is string * thing < 1265490142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what operator is that < 1265490148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tuple? < 1265490151 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I just meant that like a tuple yeah < 1265490159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for inventing notation without telling me :/ < 1265490175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :description = type? < 1265490182 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be yeah < 1265490193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the resulting value < 1265490198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exists a. a)? < 1265490266 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resulting value? < 1265490271 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of what? < 1265490271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the type < 1265490273 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which type < 1265490277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff < 1265490278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :description < 1265490279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := type < 1265490280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of row < 1265490289 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know this sort of notation? < 1265490295 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MuX.1+X < 1265490298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for data types < 1265490301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[20:57] you start with the 0x0 matrix, [] `snoc` ROW "Num"*description of num () `snoc` Row "Add*description of add ()`snoc`COL eval (case for eval Num, case for eval Add)`snoc`ROW "Mul"*description of mul (case for eval Mul)`snoc`COL show (implementation of show for all 3 casese..) < 1265490304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that line is what i'm referring to < 1265490322 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to realize that my idea takes quite a bit of background to understand.. < 1265490343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so I've tried to write my Foo/Bar/func1/func2 example using your notation. < 1265490347 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait I have a great idea how to explain that < 1265490349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nil `snoc` < 1265490350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Row "Foo" (a -> a -> (exists b. b)) `snoc` < 1265490352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Row "Bar" (a -> a -> (exists b. b)) `snoc` < 1265490354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Col "func1" (\_ y -> y) (\x _ -> x) `snoc` < 1265490355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Col "func2" (\x _ -> x) (\_ y -> y) < 1265490362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah just like that < 1265490375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. Unfortunately, it doesn't allow adding rows. < 1265490380 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1265490385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I add a row, and then call func1 or func2 on it, they don't work; they explode and break. < 1265490390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they don't handle the new type. < 1265490391 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265490393 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to mark 7000 or so conversations as read < 1265490406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the OOP system, which can add rows, they inherit the definition (and you cannot remove fields, so they must work) < 1265490409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you add a Row you must define one new case for func1 and func2 < 1265490417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it becomes < 1265490420 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason you MUST do this, is because if you don't -- it will not typecheck < 1265490439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Row "Quux" blah (\_ _ z -> z) (\_ y z -> y+z) < 1265490443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :func1 and func2 respectively < 1265490444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can add N-rows and M-columns in any order, but at the end of the day you will have definede NxM cells of a matrix < 1265490450 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265490465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a good solution, but i can't help thinking that it should really be a language feature, not something added on < 1265490469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be incredibly awkward to program in < 1265490471 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is compiling Coq to try and implement this < 1265490489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise yeah it'll be awkward as fuck in Coq but I bet you could make easy as pi in epigram < 1265490496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy as pi :D < 1265490503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckin' Coq < 1265490505 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the epigram that isn't quite finished yet, epi 2) < 1265490519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try agda? < 1265490527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the flexible operators might help make the syntax more bearable < 1265490548 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 16,163 messages in label "Agora" < 1265490562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have two rabbits < 1265490578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(13530 conversations here, comprising more messages) < 1265490584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umf gtg < 1265490591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: rjg spg < 1265490596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i look forward to your implementation < 1265490602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm going to play around with this as a language feature now < 1265490602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1265490646 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, when I said messages, I meant conversations >.> < 1265490665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1265490779 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265490785 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Gmail account looks so clean now < 1265490852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After what? < 1265490878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://pastie.org/812719.txt?key=yvxcfkcsixjpvfijd5gug < 1265490881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks slick as a language feature < 1265490892 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Marking everything as read < 1265490901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265490924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmm < 1265490941 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to mark all 30398 conversations as unread for no good reason < 1265490944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/812720.txt?key=p9mayakdi0z2wka3vzwtq < 1265490948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: More consistent syntax < 1265490954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the natural thing to do now is generalize it to infinite dimensions < 1265490964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would that help? :P < 1265490983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: one thing I don't like is < 1265490994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a function that's the composition of two columns, it doesn't need to be a column < 1265490999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it shouldn't be < 1265491000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1265491012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in functional programming you don't have to distinguish columnular and non-columnular functions < 1265491017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems a bit awkward to have to do so, in fact < 1265491031 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I should say something here, < 1265491041 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose we defined t1 = []`snoc`... a bunch of stuff... < 1265491051 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t2 = t1`snoc`... some more stuff... < 1265491070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: in mine, since tables would be compile-time, they would "mutate") < 1265491074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so no need to make new names) < 1265491093 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so t1's type would express that it defines N-functions over some (M-constructor'd) datatype < 1265491102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: your system is a vulnerability < 1265491107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and t2 would define more functions over a data type that is an extension < 1265491124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define a new row, and when defining the columns for that row, put in some evil code that breaks the assumptions, and the abstraction, of code using the column < 1265491127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy fix though: < 1265491132 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that x is a value, and you wanted to apply it < 1265491135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add constraints requiring proofs < 1265491137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila, security < 1265491147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would need to PROJECT and EVALUATE the function out of the table < 1265491148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: apply it? < 1265491151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265491160 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like projeval t1 "f2" x < 1265491172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mine, just f2 x < 1265491173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265491186 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265491226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there is any vulnerability though < 1265491231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think http://pastie.org/812720.txt?key=p9mayakdi0z2wka3vzwtq is remarkably elegant though < 1265491242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not if you make sure you have constraints on the functions < 1265491246 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265491249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like any good dependent programmer will < 1265491258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus you'd have to inject code into the system anyway < 1265491258 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/programmer/type system/ < 1265491259 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1265491260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you can do that, well... < 1265491262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: touche < 1265491277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we've discovered the Nth major paradigm < 1265491284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :table-oriented programming < 1265491288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not to be confused with SQL :P) < 1265491293 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265491319 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should use agda :/ < 1265491347 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh I just thought of somethingn < 1265491350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to translate http://pastie.org/812720.txt?key=p9mayakdi0z2wka3vzwtq into Haskell, through whatever tricks necessary < 1265491352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wut < 1265491364 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha I don't think you can turn that into haskell < 1265491371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worth a try < 1265491376 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this this good plugin for Coq I can try out < 1265491379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its type-system is TC with GHC extensions you know < 1265491393 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265491531 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't know what a TC type system is for < 1265491547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Point is, it has type-level functions and a whole lot of other trickery. < 1265491552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's everything apart from dependent, pretty much. < 1265491555 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC or not, it still doesn't have lambda < 1265491564 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well you can do everything in SK < 1265491578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC means it is equivalent to lambda in computational power, though. < 1265491593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it does have lambda < 1265491597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to define them elsewhere < 1265491601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And compiling lambda to SK is trivial. Annoying, but trivial... < 1265491601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so it doesn't have lambda < 1265491606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has first-class functions (types) < 1265491914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :internet archive is really slow today it seems < 1265491927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more than usually < 1265491958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(theory: it takes as long to go back in time as it took to get to the current point from then originally) < 1265491963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265491994 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265492020 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-179.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265492106 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What good alternatives are there to C++? < 1265492157 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-like alternatives, I mean. Not talking about Haskell here < 1265492165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, C? < 1265492177 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With OOP, preferably < 1265492181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objective c then < 1265492187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not haskell? < 1265492217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of people that got fed up with C++ because they couldn't push template metahacking it far enough moved to haskell < 1265492243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of people that got fed up with Haskell because they couldn't push type-system metahacking it far enough moved to Epigram < 1265492315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wikis < 1265492325 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: C, Objective C, D... < 1265492329 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah Objective C < 1265492334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective D++ < 1265492338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265492340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language with literally every feature < 1265492344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective C++ is a real thing. < 1265492355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND SO IS OBJECTIVE D++ < 1265492378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not implemented. < 1265492395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1265492397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apple implement it < 1265492404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so does gcc because of that < 1265492405 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummm lol < 1265492408 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I shoulld probably learn D < 1265492413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't. it's shit < 1265492420 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1265492434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first of all, the toolchain situation is hopeless; really terribly hopeless. you have no idea how hard it is just to get a working D compiler. D2 with all the fancy features? Forget it. < 1265492441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been like this for years, and I mean years. < 1265492444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Secondly, it is not a designed language. < 1265492451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a pile of features, shat on each other. < 1265492701 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what it would be like to take a computer course where he's not guaranteed an A < 1265492740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably much like being in a different building. < 1265492833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265492894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I _think_ alise is saying I should switch schools in order to actually get challenging classes < 1265492901 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265492931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you're basically guaranteed an A in every class you're either a really excellent programmer or in a bad school. < 1265492939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or have done the classes before. :P < 1265492956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may be a really excellent programmer, but the probabilities are weighted in the direction of bad school. < 1265492983 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the other students think I'm an excellent programmer.. < 1265492984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'm getting the example translated, slowly < 1265492993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: They could just be realy bad programmers, though. :P < 1265492999 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think that that's the case < 1265493002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not dissing you, just being all probabilitying. < 1265493037 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're so bayesian! < 1265493190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally mon < 1265493274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: do you have any idea how many times i've seen the word "kind mismatch" in the past few minutes < 1265493336 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1265493346 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinds are basically the type of tyoes? Maybe is * -> *? < 1265493362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo you are correct < 1265493387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar < 1265493399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*words < 1265493410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{-# LANGUAGE KindSignatures, RankNTypes, GADTs, FlexibleContexts #-} < 1265493412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a sure sign of madness < 1265493504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffff < 1265493507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1265493849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to make a website that doesn't support Chrome work in Chrome < 1265493919 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Chrome not support getElementById? < 1265494016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265494017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265494079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it should < 1265494086 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some googling suggests it doesn't < 1265494143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supported < 1265494218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh < 1265494226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have something to do with the fact that it's in a table? < 1265494305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: my average in math is still A (called 5 here), recently thought i'd failed my first exam (apparently i just failed by my own standards), and it mostly felt nice to know the pressure to succeed every time was lifted. < 1265494346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know if you actually wanna get A's, if you do, that might be relevant. < 1265494402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he means more "a programming class that isn't really easy" < 1265494432 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, probably, that's why i hastily added the second line :P < 1265494437 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll reread what he said < 1265494467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm yeah < 1265494485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'd probably feel nice, since taking trivial courses feels is a waste of time < 1265494493 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265494497 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another great sentence < 1265494516 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should stop trying, i clearly haven't woken up yet < 1265494551 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're trivial for me < 1265494558 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if they're trivial for most people < 1265494607 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean taking courses that are trivial for you is a waste of time. < 1265494633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do need to get a degree < 1265494658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose, i prefer to live in the moment < 1265494685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a degree from a bad school sounds exciting < 1265494732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: btw if you separate classes from their methods, and make methods functions, you almost get the table solution < 1265494763 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265494767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost? < 1265494876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you make a subclass you're not obligated to extend the previous functions to handle it unless you explicitly specify that < 1265494879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to add that rule < 1265494882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi coppro < 1265494887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1265494887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION (ehird) < 1265494904 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any particular reason? < 1265494931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he just likes you < 1265494935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265494939 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265494949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to see if people would treat me differently if they believed I had ovaries < 1265494961 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was like oooh want summa that < 1265494973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then i realized you were a guy < 1265494977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since this is basically the only channel I go in and #haskell is very noisy, this is not such a successful experiment < 1265494981 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after reading a few of your lines < 1265494983 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265494984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1265494993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY TALKINGS ARE VERY FEMININE < 1265495005 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I behave any different towards women on the internet < 1265495015 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I just PM alise? < 1265495028 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this stupid client thinks // means / < 1265495049 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real life is a different story :P < 1265495129 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to have sex with every girl i see both online and irl (necessary and sufficient condition for being male), but usually i only show it on irc, because as we all know it's really funny. < 1265495144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: do any existing dependent langs have isa :: a -> Set -> Bool < 1265495146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1265495160 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isa?? < 1265495168 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean like equality check? < 1265495188 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I suspect the LGBT community has some pitchforks ready for you < 1265495220 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265495243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been known to raise people's pitchforks < 1265495258 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265495267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"..."? < 1265495269 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pervert < 1265495273 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1265495324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i had water < 1265495326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1265495372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: anyway do you think Complex :: Set; Complex = {_+i_ m n | m ← Real, n ← Real} is good notation for set construction? < 1265495381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, I think: < 1265495385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Complex :: Set where < 1265495388 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I think isa is probably inconsistent < 1265495396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _+i_ :: Real -> Real -> Complex < 1265495400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is easier to understand < 1265495406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's also "specialer" < 1265495407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+_i? < 1265495409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that {} stuff is horrid < 1265495477 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has chem homework... should probably do it < 1265495675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265495708 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should DEFINITELY do LOTS of work right now < 1265495711 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am doing stuff instead < 1265495723 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm this is not a very wise thing to do < 1265495841 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265495899 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496042 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265496065 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496116 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265496190 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496194 0 :ehird!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-mynlnfkzvzkltblz JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:30:09 that {} stuff is horrid < 1265496198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're horrid. < 1265496201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:30:07 _+_i? < 1265496202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1265496205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, both are ambiguous < 1265496209 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@174-29-91-78.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265496210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 +i 4 could be 3+(i 4) < 1265496222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 + 4 i could be 3 + (4 i) < 1265496245 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then make i the Imaginary operator < 1265496248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:29:48 alise I think isa is probably inconsistent < 1265496249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1265496253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just type checking < 1265496264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:23:48 this stupid client thinks // means / < 1265496265 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ + _ :: Real -> Imaginary -> Complex < 1265496269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't see it, my connection went wonky < 1265496272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no way. < 1265496273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265496289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:23:25 I don't think I behave any different towards women on the internet < 1265496296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably do, sexism is incredibly ingrained in society. < 1265496372 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: then again ambiguous operators are all the rage < 1265496377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if_then_ plus if_then_else_ < 1265496389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if x then y else z) could be (if x then (y else z)) < 1265496392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where else is a variable name < 1265496406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that if_then_ makes any sense without an else clause but still < 1265496417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about an else by itself < 1265496432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh nevermind, since it returns Bool it doesn't matter < 1265496435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that's a name. < 1265496441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: as opposed to? < 1265496444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it gave some evidence then it might cause a problem < 1265496456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265496468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was wondering whether to make it give evidence, decided against it < 1265496498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_::_ :: a -> (a::Set) -> a < 1265496508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also I was thinking about: < 1265496520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to do quantification < 1265496526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: λa. a -> a < 1265496526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1265496533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: {a::Set} -> a -> a < 1265496534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even < 1265496554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: λ(a::Set). λ(_::a). a < 1265496559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one isn't feasible unfortunately < 1265496563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't say λInteger. < 1265496566 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use capital lambda instead of small lambda < 1265496576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be sugar for? < 1265496577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265496582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait I'm wrong < 1265496607 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1265496670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does a legitimate script feel a need to obfuscate its strings? < 1265496700 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see no good reason to say "\x75n\x64\x65fined" < 1265496772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undfined? < 1265496776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265496776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined < 1265496780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: filtering of something < 1265496790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265496940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe undefined is filtered by something < 1265497109 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do the same thing elsewhere in the code < 1265497112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including error strings < 1265497122 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\x41jax\x20\x63allba\x63\x6b er\x72\157\x72\x3a s\x6f\x75rce\x20url n\x6ft foun\x64\041\x20\012\x0d\012\x0dPlea\x73e ver\x69fy i\x66 y\x6fu ar\x65 usi\x6eg an\x79 URL\x2drew\x72itin\x67 co\x64e a\x6ed s\x65t \x74he \x41jax\x55rl\x20pro\x70er\x74y t\x6f m\x61t\x63h\x20th\x65 U\x52L \x79ou\x20ne\x65d." < 1265497147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know; I'm not psychic. < 1265497173 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so do you think quantified types should make the type of the function a type-level function from a set to a set, or have it be an implicit parameter of the function? < 1265497177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the latter i guess < 1265497231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know what that means < 1265497240 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which function? < 1265497267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: λa. a -> a < 1265497268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1265497273 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: (a::Set) -> a -> a < 1265497348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265497348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1265497352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id :: {a::Set} -> a -> a < 1265497386 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1265497387 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ? < 1265497700 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[15:44:32] you probably do, sexism is incredibly ingrained in society. < 1265497760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in your genes, pal < 1265497766 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should clarify; I will treat someone I am familiar with differently depending on their personality, including sex and gender. By default, however, I don't make any attempt to distinguish between the two. < 1265497772 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it is < 1265497797 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly treat women differently in person < 1265497982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1265497983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. < 1265497989 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but unless I have a particular reason to do so, I don't associate gender with someone over the internet < 1265498000 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise for other traits, such as age and race < 1265498064 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1265498067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but if you know someone's female you'll probably treat them differently. < 1265498101 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the context < 1265498113 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes < 1265498361 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i usually treat women differently because they are completely different < 1265498407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's those venusian antennas < 1265498437 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISN'T IT THE GUYS WHO HAVE... nm < 1265498445 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265498452 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265498501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what annoys me < 1265498513 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupidity? < 1265498514 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hardest part of doing lambda calculus and stuff is the variable renaming < 1265498518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fucking bullshit < 1265498521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody wants to rename variables < 1265498525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop using a shitty representation < 1265498526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1265498569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders a bit of psychology < 1265498603 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychology is too hard < 1265498614 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have i mentioned i just love wolframalpha? < 1265498618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just what you _think_ < 1265498626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you love wolframalpah < 1265498648 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i can write things like "integrate (-1/(e^(a-t+i*pi)-1)) with respect to t" and just know it understands what i mean < 1265498691 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's ever misinterpreted me, even though i just write like i would to a human < 1265498707 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1265498707 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's misinterpreted me :( < 1265498710 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with set stuff < 1265498713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not saying it's actually that great a parser, it's just others are incredibly stupid. < 1265498719 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265498722 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree with that < 1265498729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i just use it for integrals, because i hate them (suck at them) < 1265498752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind of set stuff have you asked it? < 1265498783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i definitely had to rephrase things a bit when solving equations/graphing < 1265498799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you solved equations? < 1265498806 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may i ask why? < 1265498845 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have you been doing math behind my back! :''() < 1265498865 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how does wolfram alpha work? < 1265498891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy parser, then stick the result into mathematica, prolly < 1265498901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just something trivial about population growth < 1265498924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 1.5 million lines of mathematica, so i assume it's just a list of hardcoded query * response pairs. < 1265498963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly the i and pi sort of simple stuff that i love i don't always have to explain to it, "(-1/(e^(a-t+ipi)-1))" works as well < 1265499006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265499015 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: okay, that's fine then < 1265499018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was getting jealous < 1265499068 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265499111 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265499267 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION seems to still have an active imagination < 1265499299 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's not imagination. those raptors you see coming toward you are _real_. < 1265499316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265499439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worlds that I create in my head < 1265499454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although both the major one and this one have me as a major Mary Sue < 1265499476 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the major one, I'm essentially God < 1265499482 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in this recent one, I'm fighting God < 1265499549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop stealing my ideas! < 1265500602 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265500750 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265500834 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just put Eliezer in charge < 1265500837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types are so sexy < 1265500863 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION returns to reality < 1265500879 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intuitionalistic type theory? o.O < 1265500925 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it?? < 1265500981 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since when is intuition valid in math? (note: I haven't actually read the article) < 1265500988 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265500991 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intuition leads to valid math < 1265501002 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can apply lots of common sense arguments < 1265501170 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intuitionism is more about rejecting the parts of math that are _not_ intuitive, like the axiom of choice < 1265501176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaiu < 1265501243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the law of excluded middle < 1265501308 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265501395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[00:00] intuitionalistic type theory? o.O [00:02] Since when is intuition valid in math? (note: I haven't actually read the article) < 1265501397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1265501508 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The law of the excluded middle is usually intuitively correct < 1265501570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excluded middle seems incredibly intuitive to me < 1265501574 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you can prove it for anything that has decidibility < 1265501575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either something's right, or it isn't < 1265501577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265501583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in our brains there isn't any < 1265501590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"god doesn't exist, but god doesn't not exist!" < 1265501606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think it's just axiom of choice that gets people. < 1265501794 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P \/ ~P is consistent but it's not really true < 1265501977 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265501981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why not? < 1265501989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is neither true nor false? < 1265502001 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any independent axiom < 1265502046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by that? < 1265502057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're false if you don't include them < 1265502072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're true if you do include them. < 1265502084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(defined to be true, in fact) < 1265502145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1265502147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't include an (independent) axiom it's not provable but neither is it's negation < 1265502158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well yes, but provable != true < 1265502172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the axiom is one of either true or false, you just can't know which < 1265502182 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so it doesn't matter < 1265502183 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that provability is a subset of truth < 1265502207 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you cannot prove something, then it is not acceptable to conclude that it is false < 1265502220 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265502252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I wasn't thinking properly < 1265502266 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an idependent axiom is not necessarily true or false, because you can negate some of them -- such as the continuum hypothesis < 1265502272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the axiom is either true or false; however, it is literally unknowable which it is, and since it never matters if it's true or false, it can be ignored entirely < 1265502276 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even that well founded set one (I think) < 1265502281 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which gives you infinitely deep sets < 1265502292 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which axiom? < 1265502307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any non-included independent one < 1265502315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i'm just arguing that excluded middle is intuitive < 1265502316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it's true < 1265502323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i <3 constructivism < 1265502338 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and good look with forall a. Either a (a -> Void) < 1265502339 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we work in a theory T and there is an independent axiom A, then T+A and T+~A are both stronger than T < 1265502341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*luck < 1265502372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah, it is quite intuitive. < 1265502380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axiomatic :: a; axiomatic = error "Axioms are unquestionable" < 1265502397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excludedMiddle :: forall a. Either a (a -> Void) < 1265502399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excludedMiddle = axiomatic < 1265502413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To the point that it's such an obvious axiom for mathematic discussion that it's almost forgotten. :P < 1265502443 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still doesn't follow what ehird was saying < 1265502481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :statements low on the arithmetic heirachy can be independent but /actually/ true < 1265502493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let A be an independent axiom not in system S < 1265502513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in S, either A or ~A; however, in S, one cannot know which it is, and it never matters < 1265502520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, the excluded middle stands < 1265502531 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how you conclude this "in S, either A or ~A"? < 1265502537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in reality *whispers* you couldn't prove it to be either because it isn't, but it never ends up contradicting the excluded middle) < 1265502545 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so it's effectively either in a nebulous way) < 1265502547 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if both S+A and S+~A are (equally) consistent? < 1265502549 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: given excluded middle < 1265502558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S+A and S+~A are irrelevant in S < 1265502565 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you're basicalyl arguing that assuming excluded middle then excluded middle? I agree with this < 1265502571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no < 1265502579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said excluded middle is consistent but not really true < 1265502584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265502592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm arguing that it is "true" even from outside the system, when considering that system < 1265502676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1265502685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot to change nick on reconnect :P < 1265502713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries modelling the dependent lambda calculus; she's helping me. < 1265502832 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first person in an ACTION? < 1265502854 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265502861 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She is a haskell enhancement < 1265502877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She's lovely. < 1265502899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She does all the work for you, and makes it just like you've got dependent types - almost. < 1265502905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She really does well to Haskell. < 1265502938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: isn't it awful that basically syntactic parts are holding up the representation of this? :( < 1265502948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need some sort of awesome semanticity in the language of semanticity. < 1265502968 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now /me is really confused < 1265502978 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise everything is syntax :P < 1265502982 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything you write down anyway < 1265502997 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's utterly confusing when you start to think about everything as syntax.. < 1265503006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: She would help you not be confused. She is the one you should accept; she'd help. < 1265503024 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is the 'she'? < 1265503027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She's the Strathclyde Haskell Enhancement, don't you know? < 1265503037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She has a homepage at http://personal.cis.strath.ac.uk/~conor/pub/she/. < 1265503054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah, but I mean things like representing forall a. b < 1265503055 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265503072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the thing that fucks up nice GADT representations of things < 1265503076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having to bind things to names then use them < 1265503087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new rule: lower-case acronyms spelled the same as a pronoun should be banned < 1265503088 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I'm not sure what you mean < 1265503106 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not having lambda in haskell is quite awful < 1265503115 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda *in the type level* in haskell < 1265503144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: She hates you for saying that. < 1265503148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: That's simple enough to fix. < 1265503154 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1265503155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should name something "and". < 1265503161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write a Template Haskell compiler from lambda to SK. < 1265503165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And define type-level SK. < 1265503169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voila. < 1265503170 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265503176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should use the best tool, and... And: it's the best way to get things done. < 1265503187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah i *really* want type-level lambda < 1265503191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be so easy to do this < 1265503192 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The power of compile-time execution. < 1265503197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she should just let me do {\x -> ...} :( < 1265503230 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise do it! based on pikhqs idea < 1265503244 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265503253 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we also need higher order unification though... < 1265503269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265503412 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a unified world order < 1265503423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: basically what I want to write is < 1265503432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forall :: (Type -> Type) -> Type < 1265503436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which works at the value-level < 1265503439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at type-level? nope. < 1265503467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what she lifts that to < 1265503514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data SheSingType :: * -> * where{-# LINE 0 "Dunno.lhs" #-} SheWitForAll :: forall sha0. (SheChecks ((Type -> Type) ) sha0) => SheSingleton ((Type -> Type) ) sha0 -> SheSingType (SheTyForAll sha0){-# LINE 0 "Dunno.lhs" #-} < 1265503515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes < 1265503522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but uh < 1265503524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data SheTyArrow x1 x2 = SheTyArrow x1 x2{-# LINE 4 "foo.hs" #-} < 1265503526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty benign that < 1265503533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(shitty arrow) < 1265503690 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is watching Early Edition < 1265503755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: alas, she does not transmogrify (a -> b) into (* -> *) < 1265503826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a dependently-typed lambda calculus with names and some small sugar + optimisations for numbers and tuples and extracting the latter would make an excellent language to compile to < 1265503836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you could just translate your types into its types, rather than check them yourself < 1265503955 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265503962 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit difficult to get good error messages though < 1265503979 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I bet you could have some fun with Ziggeraut and that idea < 1265504061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well it would have a feature where you would tag arbitrary expressions with strings < 1265504091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'd tag each atomic type in your lang to the composite type in the underlang, and if you have fancy composites that you compile away tag those too < 1265504100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it'd give error reports in a convenient format to extract this stuff from) < 1265504105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sexp-like thing < 1265504124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, if I can't get this working very soon I'm doing it in agda < 1265504160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she doesn't really let you say (foo::Bar) < 1265504167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do pi (foo::Bar). but I think that's different in some way < 1265504168 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the fuck doesn't zsh read .profiele < 1265504177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does but not if you have .zsh_profile < 1265504363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes what she wants to write then tries to coerce it so that she likes it (i'm going to call myself she because one, it'll result in even more being-named-she ambiguity and two, fuck you english language, I'll do what I want) < 1265504377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fighting sexism in language or something < 1265504387 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linguistics! < 1265504389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: speeling? < 1265504401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html is genius btw < 1265504447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate you, gedit. I WANT A NEW WINDOW, NOT A TAB < 1265504449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE A WINDOWING SYSTEM! < 1265504588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Type where ForAll :: (Type -> Type) -> Type Arrow :: (a::Type) -> ID a -> ID TyTy -> Type -> Type TyVar :: ID a -> a TyTy :: Type < 1265504592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write that. < 1265504602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Term :: {Type} -> * where ID :: Term {Forall (\a -> Arrow a a)} < 1265504604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to be able to write that. < 1265504654 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with ForAll is that you can't unify it against anything nontrivial < 1265504661 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of haskell being very careful... < 1265504675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : TyVar :: ID {a} -> {a} < 1265504679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that actually valid in a GADT, I wonder? < 1265504683 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've tried to do a non-She version of this before) < 1265504683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(desugars to just ID a -> a) < 1265504690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, wait < 1265504693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing as ID Type -> Type, heh < 1265504716 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I have Coq Epigram and urweb installed < 1265504722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QUICK INSTALL AGDA < 1265504731 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh I should do < 1265504738 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm maybe cabal will install agda for me < 1265504816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1265504818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you actually do your type checking and evaluating and filling in and everything from inside emacs, feels very alive < 1265504825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/812913.txt?key=7bkzz7vxkuiclztxsdof9q < 1265504827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that you need to set it up with emacs < 1265504829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's what I want to be able to write. < 1265504830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends entirely on it < 1265504844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ID {TyTy} -> Type < 1265504866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To do this with she, I need to figure out how to say (a::T). < 1265504897 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265504945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think she lets you do pi (a :: T) from inside T :( < 1265504960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance (SheChecks (pi (a :: Type). ID {a} ) sha0, SheChecks ( ID {TyTy} ) sha1, SheChecks ( Type ) sha2) => SheChecks (Type ) (SheTyArrow sha0 sha1 sha2) where sheTypes _ = SheWitArrow (sheTypes (SheProxy :: SheProxy (pi (a :: Type). ID {a} ) (sha0))) (sheTypes (SheProxy :: SheProxy ( ID {TyTy} ) (sha1))) (sheTypes (SheProxy :: SheProxy ( Type ) (sha2))){-# LINE 4 "foo.hs" #-} < 1265504961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1265504985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Arrow :: forall a . SheSingleton ( Type) a -> ID (a) -> ID (SheTyTyTy) -> Type -> Type{-# LINE 16 "foo.hs" #-} < 1265504987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is < 1265504998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a bona-fide Type value at the value level < 1265505004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I want it reflected in the type system too < 1265505008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is crossing the colon < 1265505009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't allowed < 1265505096 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265505122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cross-colonization is dangerous < 1265505148 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265505150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think oerjan just renamed dependent types to a far more awesome name < 1265505180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's apparently a medical term < 1265505226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that when your colon gets angry < 1265505232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1265505238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should name my language Alise, it's a nice name < 1265505289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is conor mcbride on irc? < 1265505374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SheTyTyTy < 1265505376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shitty titty < 1265505552 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise no < 1265505584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is good because he'd probably not get much done if he was < 1265505586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265505593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I've decided that it's totally fruitless using haskell for this < 1265505598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda time???? < 1265505603 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he reads the dependent_types reddit though < 1265505632 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't have agda installed yet because of an error < 1265505726 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-27-93.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265505761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what error? < 1265505779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now calling my language alise leads to the problem that the channel would be #alise but that's my nick and that would be strange,. < 1265505782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*strange. < 1265505811 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solution is to stop pretending to be a girl < 1265505824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said i'm doing that now eh < 1265505831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PERHAPS MY MOTIVATION CHANGED, perhaps i just like this name < 1265505835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also stop pretending to be Canadian < 1265505862 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooooooooooooo < 1265505875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1265505882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265505882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265505883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1265505906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_(programming_language) ok, alise would not be a good name for the language < 1265505907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it < 1265505919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: canadians say eh, eh < 1265505924 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265505928 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1265505939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what error did you get? < 1265505953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cabal: cannot configure QuickCheck-2.1.0.3. It requires ghc -any < 1265505953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no available version of ghc that satisfies -any < 1265506008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pigworker = conor right? < 1265506012 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265506017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: just checking. you have ghc right :D < 1265506022 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I have ghc lol < 1265506035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehh, ask #haskell < 1265506182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cabal: cannot configure Agda-2.2.6. It requires base ==4.2.* && ==4.2.* For the dependency on base ==4.2.* && ==4.2.* there are these packages: base-4.2.0.0. However none of them are available. base-4.2.0.0 was excluded because of the top level dependency base -any < 1265506183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asdfghjkl; < 1265506292 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1265506296 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's odd < 1265506380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll upgrade cabal-install < 1265506422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs an ST monad tutorial < 1265506430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like io but only has iorefs < 1265506431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fin < 1265506440 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something along the lines of how to hold onto state in Haskell < 1265506463 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude ST is awesome < 1265506478 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean hold onto State though? < 1265506480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST is about mutation < 1265506487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutable reference with O(1) update < 1265506497 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so might be the wrong thing < 1265506595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ST is for temporarily using (real) mutable state inside a theoretically pure computation < 1265506679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want permanent mutable state you must use IO with IORef, MVar (thread safe) or maybe that TVar thing which i'm not sure about < 1265506683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265506697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1265506721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you just want to _simulate_ state using pure computations, use State / StateT < 1265506762 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a nice tutorial on all of these < 1265506768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265506784 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is learned by word-of-IRC < 1265506825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, never seen a tutorial in my life < 1265506934 0 :alise!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-tafzlqcobodtwqjh JOIN :#esoteric < 1265506957 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tutorials are just lies that the MAN uses to keep us down. < 1265506968 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! < 1265506971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems this one only has State of those, but it has many other monads: http://www.haskell.org/all_about_monads/html/index.html < 1265507031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Antecedent < 1265507053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1265507177 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bookmarks < 1265507232 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION <3 LaTeX < 1265507837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: instead of a partial monad, would it be possible to have just an "infinite computation" monad? < 1265507845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1265507846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a thought < 1265507867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference < 1265507872 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing no? < 1265507900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, partial lets you have things in-between < 1265507904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :few-steps-delayed < 1265507943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Inf a = Further a (Inf a); bottom = Further bottom bottom -- I think < 1265507953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy! < 1265507987 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinite computation monad is just a partial monad where you cannot distinguish Further . Further from Further < 1265507992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1265508006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's a partial monad where Later has some not-fully-computed value, and there is no Now < 1265508024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right no Now either < 1265508027 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey augur :) < 1265508056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's essentially opaque outside of runtime, then, like IO... < 1265508059 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you clarified your sex and/or gender to ehird? < 1265508073 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clarified butter < 1265508078 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :melted and seived < 1265508094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd clarify your butter < 1265508098 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265508100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until you clarify we shall have to refer to you by the generic pronoun (s)h/it < 1265508117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265508131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not opaque < 1265508138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a definition of the naturals you'd get < 1265508149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Further [] $ Further [1] $ Further [1,2] $ Futher [1,2,3] etc < 1265508157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bottom would be Further ? $ Further ? $ Further ? < 1265508159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some ? < 1265508183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Length of an infinite list would be Further 0 $ Further 1 $ Further 2 $ ... < 1265508189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh the question mark, my old nemesis < 1265508199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka fake unicode < 1265508206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an actual question mark. < 1265508214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, i checked the logs < 1265508217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *could* designate one value as the end valuie and leave the rest as placeholders to emulate Now/Later, so it's definitely equivalent. < 1265508229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With IO, for instance, you'd have an EndProgram event, and then just Nop, Nop, Nop forever, < 1265508231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*forever. < 1265508235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they'd never be looked at) < 1265508247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. main_ = main >> exitSuccess < 1265508250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265508256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main_ = main >> exitSuccess >> main_ < 1265508349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as alise I am getting speedier help in #haskell! < 1265508415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hm this is possibly isomorphic to Reader Natural < 1265508441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but not in a total language < 1265508461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: btw does agda allow something like foo :: Void -> a; foo _ = bottom? < 1265508467 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265508469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a Void you have bottom anyway, so you're not making anything worse < 1265508491 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do < 1265508493 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo :: Void < 1265508495 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo = foo < 1265508499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you turn off the termination checker < 1265508555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Void where bottom :: Void -> a < 1265508571 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265508572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, data Void < 1265508605 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo :: Void -> a < 1265508607 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo () < 1265508613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: foo x = case x of { } < 1265508624 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the syntax to define it by "pattern match" on an empty type < 1265508667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's intuitively correct, at least < 1265508698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: um you mean that foo () means the same thing? < 1265508706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun with the list monad: (| return ({[1..2]}, {[3..4]}) |) < 1265508713 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan same as what? < 1265508721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: as my case < 1265508738 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah (except that agda doesn't have case) < 1265508743 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265508752 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait this isn't agda is it? < 1265508756 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is.. < 1265508757 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265508971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... (| f {x} |) -> f <$> x, (| f {x} y |) -> join (f <$> x <*> return y) < 1265509081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(| f {g x} y {foo (| mab {z} |)} |) -> join (return f <*> g x <*> return y <*> foo (join (return mab <*> z))) < 1265509181 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265509206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and (| x; y |) -> do (| x |); (| y |) < 1265509413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat = (| putStr {getContents} |) < 1265509430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catLines = (| putStrLn {getLine}; catLines |) < 1265509459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I wonder if you could make that table thing into the actual data type system of a functional lang < 1265509474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a gadt is shorthand for creating a table and adding some rows < 1265509483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functions are automatically turned into columns < 1265509504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if they pattern match on the constructors; otherwise, they must be compositions of existing functions that do) < 1265509510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and so don't need to be columns) < 1265509527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add some syntax for adding rows and voila < 1265509622 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265509624 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it could work < 1265509626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think! < 1265509640 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but well it only defines a small class of functions < 1265509646 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one that are folds) < 1265509655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what you mean < 1265509681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's ridiculous how much low hanging fruit there is in abstraction design < 1265509701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types. a powerful module system ala ML. these tables. etc. < 1265509711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet nobody is putting them into their languages. < 1265509753 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about time to start doing it I think :) < 1265509763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm on it < 1265509796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so gonna have to hire some phds to write the compiler, though < 1265509818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proving the type system sound with all this stuff will be *way* out of my league for one :P < 1265509867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not make a really simple dependent type core that has already been proved, and implement all your high language constructs in terms of it? < 1265509874 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you don't have to worry about consistency < 1265509892 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the approach Coq takes (And the one Agda doesn't) < 1265509899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's my plan, but some of the features would be really, really convoluted to compile < 1265509903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so need to be in the base language < 1265509906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus complicate things < 1265509913 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see what you mean < 1265509918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, because all the existing core systems suck, so i'd need to make a new one anyway :) :D < 1265509969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets another feature idea < 1265509971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literal brackets < 1265509981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pair of brackets whose contents is interpreted according to a separate, extensible syntax < 1265509983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1265510009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you could have [[ /...regexp.../options ]], you could have [[ foo@bar.com ]], etc. etc. without polluting and worrying about clashes with the main syntax. < 1265510022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :template haskell comes close to that, but not quite < 1265510145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in one of its features) < 1265510204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(| email {fileContents <~/message.txt>} |) < 1265510531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be nice if there was a way to do symbolic computation without writing a parser in the lang < 1265510608 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have a Symbolic type < 1265510614 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use expression templates < 1265510632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is, it's probably a C++ abomination. < 1265510668 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expression templates are when overloading is used to build up expressions in data < 1265510697 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. x^2 might give some value which represents "x^2", which is exactly what you want in symbolic computation. < 1265510702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's more the "any undefined value just sits there" thing. < 1265510746 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about transcendental constants? For accurate math, they must be treated very much like unknowns < 1265510891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mean is, you need to coerce the language into, upon seeing "ilikebigbuttsandicannotlieyouothercreaturescantdeny", give it some value instead of barfing that it's not bound. < 1265511594 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time for GREGOR'S LANGUAGE CHALLENGE < 1265511607 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write a language with the following name: < 1265511611 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ATTACK OF THE FLYING MONADS < 1265511670 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That seems like a pretty easy feature to add < 1265511836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding arbitrary features is bad. Adding general constructs is good./ < 1265511837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*good. < 1265512479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: would you believe i'm still at the "install agda" step in my dependent lc plan... >_< < 1265512480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate software < 1265512493 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too it sucks < 1265512519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and _this_ is why i have a grand os vision >:| < 1265512590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how to get agda in my lovely dream world: on their website, click a fancy link. it traces all the dependencies across the web, using things that basically amount to a set of type signatures to find dependencies that can be satisfied by multiple packages, and automatically integrating the latest versions, from decentralised sources, updatable, into the current value ecosystem. < 1265512680 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called Debian < 1265512706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah everything's called something else if you ignore pertinent words like decentralised, type signatures, and value ecosystem < 1265512729 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian supports decentralisation < 1265512743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you believe your statement, you are not using the word i meant. < 1265512747 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't even know what you mean by type signatures and value ecosystem < 1265512775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then perhaps you shouldn't make snarky comments about debian < 1265512784 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I just assume you're insane < 1265512791 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265512797 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, you know what? I retract that < 1265512798 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't funny < 1265512810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitbucket :: a -> () < 1265512813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitbucket _ = () < 1265512815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> bitbucket coppro < 1265512835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: perhaps slightly inappropriate given my current situation :P < 1265512843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :retraction accepted, but i don't really mind < 1265512847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, we cannot claim we're all mad here any more? damn doctors. < 1265512859 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "value ecosystem" turns up 0 relevant hits < 1265512873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does your face. < 1265512881 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for type signatures, I have no clue how that relates to packages < 1265512925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you understood "value ecosystem" it would make more sense :P < 1265512945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then explain it, because apparently you're the only one who does < 1265512980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Attack of the Flying Monads, eh? < 1265512983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure others could infer it based on the component words, but imagine a smalltalk system; a living environment of objects, and that is all there is; there is no "running a file" < 1265512995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that, but with functional-programming values instead of objects. < 1265512998 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265513001 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, ATTACK OF THE FLYING MONADS < 1265513007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Definitely needs to use the function instance for monads as the only way to be Turing-complete. < 1265513016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I retract my retraction :P < 1265513019 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That (except for the functional bits) sounds like Unununium < 1265513028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(>>= is S, return is K) < 1265513029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yeah my system isn't unusable, i must be crazy < 1265513043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... Erm, no. >>= is not S. XD.) < 1265513048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grog XD. < 1265513056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S is ap < 1265513062 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Roentgenium < 1265513064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265513079 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ap is defined in terms of return and >>=... < 1265513090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm lessee < 1265513098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, >>= and return suffice for combinator calculus. < 1265513100 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's a pipe dream. < 1265513106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the os is called unununium < 1265513109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's very much not < 1265513117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these techniques are actually simpler to implement than a traditional unix system < 1265513119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(f >>= g) x = g (f x) x < 1265513124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not one additional layer, it's one _less_ layer of separation < 1265513129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1265513143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had a bit of a thinko. < 1265513149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the labelling of anything that is substantially different from the norm as a "pipe dream" is a very common technique to dismiss ideas for no reason whatsoever < 1265513152 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's one layer trying to abstract toom uch < 1265513156 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too much < 1265513159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are wrong, and do not understand it < 1265513164 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :occasionally pipe dreams work out < 1265513167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one, smalltalk has existed since the 70s, and its implementation was _very_ simple < 1265513170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for two, run Squeak right now < 1265513173 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1265513175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're using the exact thing I'm describing < 1265513182 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as an OS? < 1265513183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for three, see Oberon OS. it fits on a floppy and does just this. < 1265513186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Squeak is an OS in a box < 1265513187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smalltalk is an os < 1265513189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was an os < 1265513191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it booted up the computer < 1265513194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :squeak is descended from it < 1265513198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just in a window now < 1265513202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk is one of the simpler OSes. < 1265513225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since all that the "OS" is is a language runtime... < 1265513231 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION searches for Smalltalk.NET < 1265513236 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I think I am misunderstanding < 1265513239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything else is just your library. < 1265513247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: How did you interpret it? < 1265513289 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, I'm not really sure < 1265513298 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to think it through < 1265513343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Believe me, I've thought about this at length; the bits you need to get an automatically persistent, typed, living ecosystem of values is actually incredibly minimal. < 1265513370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: >>= and return won't give you everything if you use haskell's type system though... no way to type the Y combinator < 1265513373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A living ecosystem of values is just a running program (ok, with the type information, etc. retained). Persistence? Orthogonal persistence takes a few hundred lines for a dumb version. A version ready for regular OS use? A few thousand lines. < 1265513382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... well, that's it. < 1265513393 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs sleep, he thinks < 1265513402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computer's memory becomes a disk cache, and the disk is full of values. < 1265513405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With types. < 1265513461 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, pretend I wasn't a part of this conversation. I think I was insane. < 1265513468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of insanity. < 1265513473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what were you thinking? :P < 1265513493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Just discussing ideas for ATTACK OF THE FLYING MONADS. < 1265513501 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Don't necessarily need Haskell's type system. < 1265513511 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not sure what I was thinking. Which is why I think I was insane. < 1265513545 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: note that it says MONAD_S_. you cannot use just one ;D < 1265513556 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, I know. < 1265513569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm just saying the function instance should be the only thing making it TC. :P < 1265513605 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no reason we have to use the programming concept < 1265513609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe that reverse state monad would be something for getting fix-points... < 1265513639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can still be well-typed < 1265513653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i <3 the reverse state monad < 1265513678 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly we should be designing this off of music without resorting to chords < 1265513803 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION votes for Bach's rendition of the Ode to Joy < 1265513842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bach did that? < 1265513848 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265513850 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beethoven < 1265513852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles < 1265513864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bachovenzart < 1265513933 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would require some reverse state indeed, bach died before schiller was born (1750 vs. 1759) < 1265514042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm a language based on time travelling anachronisms... < 1265514083 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to quit the program, you need to get hitler eaten by a dinosaur. < 1265514110 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without causing an alternate world war to take its pace < 1265514111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*place < 1265514136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_may be_ < 1265514142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1265514144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikihistory esolang < 1265514167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to do something in germany way back when to compute, but if anything stops hitler becoming an ebil nazi, the program is invalid < 1265514171 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is anyone here on vista? < 1265514174 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x < 1265514179 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or win 7? < 1265514188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but I do have erectile dysfunction. < 1265514189 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is on WinXP < 1265514194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We all have our issues. < 1265514310 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me: My email address is ********@gmail.com < 1265514316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other person: thats yahoo? < 1265514351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're pulling off the female thing really badly < 1265514411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Just send the $500,000 so we can complete the transaction. < 1265514416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i know rite < 1265514424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well everyone knows i'm male in here so there's hardly any point < 1265514428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only other place i dwell is #haskell! < 1265514429 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265514433 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's your own fault! < 1265514439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talking to someone who randomly came to a nearly dead chat < 1265514447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only affect of this is that i'm referring to myself as "she". well, when i remember. < 1265514466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no wait, erectile dysfunction means you cannot be male, right < 1265514484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION scratches head < 1265514485 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1265514490 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The person invited me to private chat < 1265514499 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was in another tab, but I accepted < 1265514499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEXY TIME < 1265514504 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THat meant I couldn't see the main chat < 1265514533 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just closed out of private chat... and apparently before I went into private chat, e said "Let's have sex" < 1265514559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! I was RIGHT! < 1265514703 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex chat... usually that's hard because there's not many girls on IRC < 1265514722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was probably in one of sgeo's endless obsessions^Wshitty 3d virtual-reality games from years ago. < 1265514733 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you're psychic < 1265514760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the universe has shown a disturbing tendency to shape what i experience according to me recently < 1265514834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: Though, if you're gay you shouldn't have *too* much trouble. < 1265514861 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least insofar as I can tell, there's more gay men than there are females on IRC. (in general) < 1265514861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or botsexual. < 1265514877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're botsexual, then it's trivial. < 1265514906 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes < 1265514916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or silensexual. < 1265514926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ignore *@* < 1265514949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i'm not ready for that kind of commitment. < 1265514956 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265514961 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: /join #brainfuck < 1265514975 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1265514986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Silent. < 1265514996 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265515110 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sex chat is easy so long as you're not so damn picky :P < 1265515148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He knows this from extensive ... research,. < 1265515150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*research. < 1265515179 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265515197 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can get off to chatting with what you assume is a sexy woman online, and some guy in Alabama can get off to pretending to be a sexy woman and chatting with you, then who's really harmed? :P < 1265515203 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, everyone should only have sex chat with Egobot. < 1265515220 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo I put on my robe and wizard's hat. < 1265515221 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put on my robe and wizard's hat. < 1265515223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: THE IRC SERVER INBETWEEN < 1265515226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It knows everything < 1265515227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVERYTHING < 1265515229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH GOD THE HORROR < 1265515249 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it has probably seen much worse < 1265515280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I fling my dung-covered vomit into your urethra." < 1265515288 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOT < 1265515304 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urinal tract infections are SO SEXY. < 1265515366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urinalot of trouble < 1265515494 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen worse < 1265515579 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was some guy in whatever other channel that had, like, all the fetishes < 1265515661 0 :alise_!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-isduzhrxfjasrkxw JOIN :#esoteric < 1265515670 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION picks up the channel and sets it back on the rails < 1265515672 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a fetish... < 1265515673 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for LOVE < 1265515675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265515678 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1265515683 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'tis a good thing < 1265515691 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265515724 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was screwed ip < 1265515740 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ip ip ip < 1265515746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCREWED, ey? < 1265515775 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, I already told you to stop being Canadian. Switching to a y doesn't count. < 1265515858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh < 1265515860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maple syrup < 1265515860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265515869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ canadians < 1265515897 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no canada like french canada < 1265515972 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maple syrup is indeed delicious < 1265516001 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is chapstick >.> < 1265516061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm beginning to suspect that chapstick is an euphemism for something else < 1265516078 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to assume it isn't < 1265516083 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything in english is an euphemism for sex < 1265516176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm afreud so < 1265516186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: including "english"? < 1265516194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or how about ... discombobulated < 1265516203 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll give you english lessons < 1265516208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, look at those bobules < 1265516223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madbr: No, just everything written by Shakespeare. < 1265516282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Country matters. < 1265516329 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CountryMatters < 1265516387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that Ulysses quote. < 1265516527 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo: heh, eventually we'll wear out "fuck" and have to switch to "cunt < 1265516528 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1265516864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g < 1265516879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep reading my name as aisle < 1265516897 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick up the phone booth and aisle? < 1265516924 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that might be a plan if you're a rapper that sells disks to 11 year olds by saying obscenities < 1265518039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amasses of obulence < 1265518169 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to pop open that stick of chapstick, pull out its fleshy inner core and rub it all over my lips. < 1265518174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chapstick, folks. Chapstick. < 1265518266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My chapstick is tingling. < 1265518509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freud was wrong. all those people talking about penises are secretly thinking about chapsticks. < 1265521083 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265521441 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265521519 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265523310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265523838 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1265524767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HM < 1265524781 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most examples of using this particular SDK are C. This example is C++ < 1265524806 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no < 1265524808 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, yes < 1265524883 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1265524887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1265524894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Aw_laser_beam < 1265524960 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is C++? < 1265524963 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265524965 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I see < 1265524966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265525017 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At first, I forgot that C had structs, so I thought the whole Line thing wouldn't make sense < 1265525036 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I realized it does.. but it doesn't have the & pass-by-reference thing.. I think < 1265525078 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265525081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only pointers. < 1265525114 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The & stuff is somewhat confusing, tbh < 1265525132 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why people think pointers are complicated. IMO, they make more sense < 1265525252 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :References are used because operator overloading doesn't work with pointers < 1265526522 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265526674 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265527970 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: neat fact: I just discovered that a large portion of another online community thought I was female. No noticeable difference from my side. < 1265529599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265529600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265531550 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265531673 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265533047 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-36.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265533651 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1265534286 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1265534499 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265534902 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265534943 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265536147 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265536477 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup guys < 1265538902 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265539039 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265539150 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265541049 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just got a rather good fortune: < 1265541053 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To converse at the distance of the Indes by means of sympathetic contrivances < 1265541053 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be as natural to future times as to us is a literary correspondence. -- Joseph Glanvill, 1661 < 1265541870 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265543888 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265545231 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-36.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265549704 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265550523 0 :pax!~SOLEIL@a213-22-137-230.cpe.netcabo.pt JOIN :#esoteric < 1265550782 0 :pax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265551049 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265551185 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265551198 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265551722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[07:32] alise: neat fact: I just discovered that a large portion of another online community thought I was female. No noticeable difference from my side. < 1265551732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: remember what I said about me seeming to shape the universe? < 1265551736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's getting ridiculous lately. < 1265551770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm *almost* a multiverse solipsist (everyone has their own universe... except, I guess other people in it are "alive" just not the main alive guy for that person) < 1265552029 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265552303 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265552402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: whatever curse you've put on me, stop it < 1265552458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? i was trying to put a curse on your doctors, not you. must have missed slightly. < 1265552617 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i was pondering more scientific plans. unfortunately they all involve first inventing a working teleport device. < 1265552893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe has been freaking me out since before that :p < 1265552928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, synchronicities are supposed to increase drastically for _everyone_ as we approach 2012. don't you read the relevant new age literature, sheesh. < 1265553014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but there's simply not enough space in the non-synchronicitious day for other people to have all theirs, too < 1265553036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if everyone was having these (I mean, assuming they're not just my imagination), mine wouldn't be so important as to affect the actual TV news < 1265553054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you are affecting the TV news? < 1265553109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the TV news are mentioning you, note that the same news could easily be part of several people's synchronicities. < 1265553142 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is curious as to what the news is < 1265553144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not as much recently but they *did* have a tendency to talk about things i'd recently thought about (not necessarily heard about; that would be Baader-Meinhof, but thought) < 1265553162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has pondered this before, when _he_ felt the news were eerily coincident < 1265553210 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265553220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it's just the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon and a handful of everyday coincidences (it's not as if they're synchronicities about really obscure stuff) < 1265553389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in my experience there are only a very few "big" synchronicities, and a tremendous onslaught of small ones, the frequency of which is affected by my personal mood. < 1265553440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my experience, you're experiencing a rationality failure due to the tendency of the human mind to notice things that it has recently noticed and ignore those things it hasn't. :) < 1265553668 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265553863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw may i recommend the book "The Luck Factor"? it's investigating some of these things from a more scientific point of view. < 1265553895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a 1-second google it's actually postulating that luck exists and some have it more than others? < 1265553908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much for "scientific" < 1265553914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well it's more in a popular science form) < 1265553932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In this book Richard Wiseman, former magician turned" < 1265553942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :james randi is the only one who can pull off that :P < 1265554014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually is not anywhere as non-scientific as it sounds. in fact it basically has your kind of outlook, but then notices (through scientific investigations) that you can _still_ affect your luck. < 1265554044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. even _if_ it's all about perception, you can still affect your luck by changing it. < 1265554084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only through working harder to do better (in ways that minutely change seemingly "random" outcomes) because you think you will... < 1265554104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which isn't really changing your luck at all, luck would be affecting things you have no control over. < 1265554151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. this book is about the part you can control though, and why it's still important. < 1265554187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't call things like that chance. < 1265554235 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_i_ think there's more than that, of course. < 1265554263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that book imho goes as far as you can _without_ leaving the scientific worldview < 1265554266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many mathematicians seem to believe in the orbiting teapots, though I can't fathom why them specifically. < 1265554274 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was sort of gateway drug for me really < 1265554281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe because their rational system doesn't say anything about the world. < 1265554288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they don't make the connection... < 1265554378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever. i'll just have to wait for you to change your opinion ;D < 1265554539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's unlikely; I've spent so much time - and in my formative years, too - thinking about this. I never was religious or superstitious - I identified as Christian but only because everyone else did, and *never* thought about it. Then I became an agnostic when I stopped telling people that, then, after much thought, a complete atheist. Then, a few years later, I took a long, hard look at it and concluded that rationality was the b < 1265554550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I'm a lazy slob and don't tend to follow my utilitarian aspirations. < 1265554616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not mean that you will change your opinion because you change your basic rationality. i don't think _i_ did, after all. < 1265554629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You believe in something entirely unfalsifiable. < 1265554642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is irrational by definition. < 1265554660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets fire to alise's strawman < 1265554675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then what do you believe? < 1265554717 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :godchat < 1265554750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe in synchronicities, the biggest of which have a strange tendency to show up when it is _really_ important that they do so. < 1265554786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define synchronicities. < 1265554787 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you spot a time when it's important to happen < 1265554796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: because it happened, obviously! :P < 1265554797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess _you_ have never been followed home by a three-legged black kitten when in a particularly self-destructive mood. < 1265554808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a kitten deciding to follow you < 1265554815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it lost a leg because of some happening? < 1265554821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, that's spoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooky < 1265554886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever. < 1265554893 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it < 1265554896 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you tell < 1265554912 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely there are instances where it could be really important one happens but it doesn't < 1265554912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you say "whatever" as a response to something that's a pretty good indicator you're not able to make a rational argument about it < 1265554923 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, yes. < 1265554930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so i'm not rational. < 1265554962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sure was easier to convince you of thaan it is for most. Are you sure you didn't already believe that? < 1265554966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*than < 1265554978 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265554981 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus christ, you weren't convincing < 1265554994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not _intending_ to be convincing. < 1265555000 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant alise < 1265555023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a second ago he was claiming he was rational. < 1265555029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i didn't say i was convincing < 1265555033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was not the word i used < 1265555046 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"convince" is the word < 1265555255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i'm uncomfortable continuing this conversation. if it's because i'm irrational, so be it. < 1265555293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now iwc. < 1265555490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry martians, the froghurt is cursed anyhow < 1265555622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know of a tool (for *nix) that renders a pdf (or ps file) and outputs it as one image per page < 1265555674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternative: anyone know of a tool to split up a multipage pdf into one file per page (I think ps2eps can be used then, and after that it would be easy to convert to a bitmap format) < 1265555994 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-28-76.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265556014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265556611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm played with ghostscript's image backends < 1265556616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they give ugly results < 1265556621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-antialiased < 1265556789 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265556802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi MissPiggy! < 1265556847 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1265556856 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's happening < 1265556864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuffs < 1265557097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm you don't need to convert to ps for ghostscript it seems. Not that it is documented in man page that it accepts pdf (at least in the version I have here) < 1265557104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that gives antialiased output < 1265557456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is the function Set -> Set reasonable that means "the set of all values not in the argument"? seems straying close to russell somehow, but it would be a cool function < 1265557541 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Either such function is relative to some universe (and then it would equivalent to set complement) or AFAIK the output will not be a set. < 1265557578 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, it's a GNU thing; those aren't known for sensible man pages. The actual official documentation is pretty clear on PDF files. < 1265557587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Well, it's relative to the type (∃a.a). < 1265557590 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise that sonuds insane < 1265557598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you even compute that? < 1265557621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well for the typechecker it's easy < 1265557632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the value is in the set we complemented, go all beepy like < 1265557634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, smile < 1265557647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could construct a type of "everything you cannot `show` (as in Haskell show)" :D < 1265557660 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265557678 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is learning the joy of watching TED talks < 1265557679 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And in general you have to say something like "-dTextAlphaBits=4 -dGraphicsAlphaBits=4" to get subsample antialiasing. (Can't say offhand why it'd happen by default if you pass in a PDF file.) < 1265557732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i guess it's more useful to have complements < 1265557747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can just do (∃a.a) - foo < 1265557750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (And incidentally, my version of the man page does mention the PDF support; starts with "-- Ghostscript, an interpreter of Adobe Systems' PostScript(tm) and Portable Document Format (PDF) languages." < 1265557753 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Any value not in set when invoked on empty set is truly everything. And that's proper class, not a set. < 1265557761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what uber-general concept can we apply to - to let us define it on sets? :-) < 1265557764 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds a bit SET THEORY to me < 1265557767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... maybe sets are haskell-ish Nums < 1265557767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pitchforks < 1265557774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+) :: Set -> Set -> Set, yes < 1265557789 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1265557792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-) :: Set -> Set -> Set, yar < 1265557803 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my Data Structures class, we made a fraction calculator in C++ < 1265557805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*) :: Set -> Set -> Set, that'd be a tuple < 1265557812 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should make a similar calculator in Haskell < 1265557825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Quick, what's set `div` set?! < 1265557827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265557834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not required for Num, but amusing to think about anyway.) < 1265557878 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One property of sets is that for any set, there is strictly larger set. < 1265557983 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More construcively: All sets have powerset, and that powerset is always strictly larger than the set itself. < 1265558028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no bigger set than (∃a.a). < 1265558030 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a property of sets hm < 1265558037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, it contains every single value... < 1265558073 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION guesses that the character he can't see is forall [inverted A] < 1265558079 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's exists :P < 1265558084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It's flipped E. < 1265558086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exists) < 1265558092 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If there isn't anything bigger than it, it can't be a set, it is proper class. < 1265558094 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265558107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In haskell, you would write it (forall a. a) because it overloads forall for existential quantification. < 1265558117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Yes, but type theorists poop on set theory for breakfast. < 1265558229 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another funky feature: Sets with cardinality above Aleph-0 include undescribable elements. < 1265558277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such is the strange world of the Curry-Howard isomorphism. < 1265558362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1265558384 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265558387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\(x::T). ...) -> (\x. (\x'. ...) (x::T)) if you have ::. < 1265558417 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265558448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, (x::T) -> (\(x'::T). x') x if you have that. :P < 1265558702 0 :MissPigg1!~quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1265558727 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1265558730 0 :MissPigg1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MissPiggy < 1265558744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> L (TyTy :-> (\(T a) -> a :-> (\_ -> a))) :1:0: No instance for (Show (ID -> Term -> Term)) < 1265558753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot < 1265558776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's (\...) :: (a::Set) -> a -> a) < 1265558894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1265558899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually need to have separate Term and Set types. < 1265558929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : L :: Term -> (Term -> Term) -> Term < 1265558931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (:->) :: Term -> (Term -> Term) -> Term < 1265558941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whenever I see two things of the same type, I feel this intense urge to unify them. < 1265558951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're not the same :p < 1265558952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1265559026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Starting to think that that function idea isn't so great, though, because then I can't, you know, show lambdas. < 1265559168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idL = L (A SetSet (A (N Top) (N (Dip Top)))) (N Top) < 1265559169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's better. < 1265559296 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION drinks a Red Bull shot < 1265559302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION drinks a horse < 1265559318 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It came free with a few hundred dollars worth of books < 1265559342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me guess, it's awful and terrible for you. < 1265559355 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad says that I better not buy this, because it's exactly the same as a cup of coffe, but more expensive < 1265559362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't let Ilari hear about this or you'll never stop hearing about sugar :-) < 1265559367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*coffee, also. < 1265559412 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He says if I want something convenient, there are pills < 1265559453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or how about sleeping better and not needing things like that. < 1265559456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> idL \((*) -> (t) -> dt). t < 1265559457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot < 1265559545 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If sugar's main issue is that it causes obesity or something, I don't see a problem < 1265559569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Destroys your liver < 1265559589 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1265559680 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265559997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh, my dependently-typed lambda calculus seems to require an infinite loop in typechecking. < 1265560158 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does like the taste < 1265560164 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I hate the taste of coffee < 1265560178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drink tea. It has more caffeine. < 1265560214 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drinking tea takes time < 1265560276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: HALP http://pastie.org/813531.txt?key=ahcwvmgdprki24beyw5gq < 1265560284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So does coffee < 1265560295 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, indeed < 1265560305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway if you want a cheap boost the expense of your health feel free. < 1265560306 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatos :.? < 1265560310 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drinking this Red Bull shot took maybe a few seconds < 1265560310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :, he said, while drinking cola. < 1265560315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: application < 1265560323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call it :$ but it's left-associative As God Intended < 1265560343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rT is < 1265560343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1265560344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in < 1265560347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x::T) -> ... < 1265560352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rT is the ... < 1265560358 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f : (a : A) -> B[a], < 1265560363 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x : a |- < 1265560365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, rT isn't actually a function < 1265560366 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x : B[x] < 1265560372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i can't do that < 1265560380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : L :: Term -> Term -> Term A :: Term -> Term -> Term < 1265560388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the second Term _should_ be a lambda < 1265560393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it's expressed as T -> (\x -> ...) < 1265560399 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you could try that < 1265560404 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that haskell though? < 1265560416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it'd actually be written as < 1265560418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not with a real lambda < 1265560420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with an L term < 1265560421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do HOAS in agda < 1265560424 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oky < 1265560435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1265560439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idL = L (A SetSet (A (N Top) (N (Dip Top)))) (N Top) < 1265560443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(N is the variable stuff) < 1265560458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A, arrow, pushes a new variable and runs the code < 1265560466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does L, so maybe A's second argument should be an L < 1265560634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I think I meant it to be an L. < 1265560659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but the problem is, when I check the L in the A to make sure that it takes the right type of argument, and to make sure its result type is a Set, we run into the exact same code path < 1265560772 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265560831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking i could rely on glorious laziness to bottom out in the end but i don't think so < 1265560882 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a well typed program you don't need to worry about evaluation order < 1265560957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but my typechecker is sequential not lazy < 1265560960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe monad < 1265560985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that every type is, I think, infinite < 1265560991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every type has a type of the type and the typey type type < 1265561139 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite O_O < 1265561146 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can just stop at Set < 1265561148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INFINITE DIMENSIONS OF THE COSMIC SOUL < 1265561150 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set is well formed < 1265561154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but < 1265561157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok lemme give you an example < 1265561200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: a->b pushes the value of the a-typed value on the variable stack; top of var stack is t, second is dt, third ddt, etc < 1265561210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\(* -> t -> dt) -> t) whatever < 1265561214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265561217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265561217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1265561225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first we get the function's type < 1265561227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple enough < 1265561232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then whatever's typef < 1265561234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*type < 1265561241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we check the types match < 1265561242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now < 1265561247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to pass whatever to the (t -> dt) bit < 1265561256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a function, it needs to be typeofwhatever -> set < 1265561261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we need to check it < 1265561265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check (that bit :. whatever) < 1265561270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but we're in the clause for (f :. x) < 1265561272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we go forever < 1265561274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it? < 1265561280 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265561305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1265561315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265561319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A's argument can't be an L < 1265561325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that would cause an infinite nestingness < 1265561325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265561328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may be able to solve this with my genius < 1265561332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm terribly clever < 1265561335 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265561349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, to write my typechecker i need to write eval :/ < 1265561365 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you do < 1265561371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1265561376 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's expectet < 1265561384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, still :P < 1265561385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck, at the end of this I'm going to write Term -> String < 1265561388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its name? < 1265561389 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1265561389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :toC < 1265561398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there's one thing i'm getting out of this hellhole of coding < 1265561398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval is pretty easy to write < 1265561403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna get some half-efficient code < 1265561405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know < 1265561413 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/fplunch/weblog/?p=95 < 1265561416 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this technique < 1265561417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using `data ID = Top | Dip ID` for my names will make renaming and shit really terribly easy < 1265561418 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NbE < 1265561439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that type is just de bruijn < 1265561443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just nat < 1265561447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should just use ints < 1265561453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i can't use that technique, can't use haskell funcs < 1265561457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want to be able to `show` things nicely < 1265561458 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1265561468 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can quote it and show the quoted form < 1265561474 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ro you could implement show on the functions < 1265561477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265561481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just apply them to a gensym < 1265561485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265561486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea, maybe < 1265561491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah ok < 1265561498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wait. < 1265561504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do i need de bruijn stuff < 1265561507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i have it as functions < 1265561526 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the syntax :P < 1265561533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265561549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm confused < 1265561570 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the syntax should be de bruijn, and the semantics is haskell functions < 1265561591 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, does it even need to be de bruijn < 1265561598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you are right and it doesn't matter < 1265561616 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure anymore < 1265561640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265561644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need some sort of name to do the "pass the gensym" < 1265561661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess it's best to keep it like that < 1265561683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what, I'm gonna write my evaluator first < 1265561685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then my typechecker < 1265561896 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265561998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that post confuses me < 1265562005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it have a separate type for evaluation? < 1265562058 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me explain a simpler version < 1265562083 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you have a syntax like: data Exp = Num Int | Var Ref | Add Exp Exp, < 1265562103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya < 1265562111 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmm that was a bad example < 1265562117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no variable binding :P < 1265562153 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the point is this, you have a type Syntax and another type Semantics, < 1265562164 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval :: Syntax -> Semantics, quote :: Semantics -> Syntax < 1265562171 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now normalize = quote . eval :: Syntax -> Syntax, < 1265562200 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason it gives you a normal form is because factoring through Semantics quotients out anything you don't care about < 1265562214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell you what i'll just do it how the article says < 1265562225 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example if you have an associative binary operator (i.e. trees of a), you can use [a] as semantics, to quotient out associativity < 1265562226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as far as i can tell Syntax = Semantics if I use haskell functions in the actual data types < 1265562248 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then normalize ((p * q) * x * (y * z)) = p * (q * (x * (y * z))) < 1265562270 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if we use the semantic domain Sem = Sem -> Sem, we have a model of lambda calculus < 1265562281 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats why it does beta normalization < 1265562322 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's actually omre like data Sem = Sem (Sem -> Sem), oh and you need to be able to quote back out of it, so Sem = Sem (Sem -> Sem) | Var Ref) < 1265562354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use HOAS, syntax might be: data Syn = F (Syn -> Syn) | App Syn Syn | ..., < 1265562359 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sem doesn't have App < 1265562432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so Sem is the untyped lambdas < 1265562439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Syn is my dependently-typed language in its entirety < 1265562451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why Var Ref < 1265562456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just keep track of vars with haskell arguments < 1265562475 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could I dunno < 1265562499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason that I like ints for bound variables is you can do eval context (Var ref) = context ! ref < 1265562514 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that should be !! < 1265562560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean is < 1265562563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need variable bindings < 1265562565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Sem -> Sem < 1265562567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first Sem gets a name < 1265562568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila < 1265562686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1265563197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: :/ < 1265563200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is confusing < 1265563257 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eyeah it < 1265563258 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1265563263 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll help < 1265563306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yaay<3 < 1265563541 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at this trivial example < 1265563553 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Syn = N Int | Add Syn Syn < 1265563557 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Sem = Sem Int < 1265563576 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval (N i) = Sem i ; eval (Add x y) = eval x <+> eval y < 1265563581 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote (Sem i) = N i < 1265563611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yah < 1265563619 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nf = quote . eval, now if x, y :: Syn are equal (like 1 + 4 is equal to 2 + 2 + 1 for example), so the property is: < 1265563638 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x === y --> nf x == nf y < 1265563647 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=== is extensional equality, and == is syntactic < 1265563677 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can also do something like monoid simplification, < 1265563696 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Syn = Id | Var V | Op Syn Syn < 1265563706 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Sem = Sem [V] < 1265563717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, can i tell you the "issue" i'm having in code? < 1265563722 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval (Id) = [] ; eval (Var v) = [v] ; eval (Op x y) = eval x ++ eval y < 1265563727 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1265563731 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be <++> < 1265563748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Syn = Lam (Syn -> Syn) | App Syn Syn < 1265563753 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote (Sem []) = Id ; quote (Sem (x:xs)) = Op x (quote (Sem xs)) < 1265563756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one, what's the Sem for this? and two, when I quote it, how would I stringify it? < 1265563761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no "dummy gensyms" to pass < 1265563774 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have nf = quote . eval, and nf normalizes out identity and associativity < 1265563777 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!!!!!!!!! < 1265563808 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes Syn is a bit harder, we can build it up in two stages < 1265563824 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Sem = Sem (Sem -> Sem) < 1265563838 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval (Lam f) = Sem (\x -> eval (f x)) < 1265563847 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval (App f x) = eval f <$> eval x < 1265563859 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sem f <$> x = f x < 1265563867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now of course you can't quote this yet, < 1265563895 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can add < 1265563902 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Sem = ... | Neutral N < 1265563916 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data N = NVar Var | NApp N Sem < 1265563924 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at some old Haskell code he wrote to try to get a taste for Haskell again < 1265563939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that confuses me < 1265563979 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe I actually wrote < 1265563979 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What exactly happened here is that we generalized the problem - in order to make recursion work on it < 1265563979 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :show $ uncurry quad $ (\(x:y:[]) -> (x,y)) $ map read $ words line < 1265563986 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should attempt to understand that < 1265563997 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is pretty much always a magic step, but it'll becme obvious in retrospect < 1265563999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'll have to think about this < 1265564004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should write the typechecker first :P < 1265564007 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(same with induction proofs, when you do a magic generalization) < 1265564016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typechecker is Syn -> Maybe Syn (Syn includes types), not Sem right? < 1265564021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it involves evaluation at some point < 1265564025 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the idea is that we generalized from CLOSED terms, to OPEN terms with N free vars, < 1265564029 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly CLOSE = OPEN 0 < 1265564037 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now we have OPEN n (any n) < 1265564043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must be really dumb today :) < 1265564078 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if we have an term like OPEN 3, suppose the context is [oa, ob, oc] < 1265564079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I understand what it does now :D < 1265564087 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if I could ever write it again though < 1265564093 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, there's probably a more elegant way < 1265564102 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the term is maybe Sem (\x -> oa <$> x <$> ob) < 1265564154 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265564202 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the term is Sem (\x -> Neutral (NVar oa) <$> x <$> Neutral (NVar ob)) < 1265564202 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, < 1265564202 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the recursion steps inside the binder and operates on "Neutral (NVar oa) <$> x <$> Neutral (NVar ob)" which is an open term with N+1 variables < 1265564208 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you substitute x into say Neutral (NVar od) < 1265564249 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once the lambda body is quoted you abstract it back out to get a syntax lambda term < 1265564305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ this is one bit where de bruijn syntax is slightly easier/nicer than HOAS I guess < 1265564473 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also make quote type directed, so that it eta-expands < 1265564481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just more tricky details :D < 1265564538 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265564538 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265564633 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION attempts to read Sgeo's code. < 1265564642 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of annoying how you have to read it from right to left. < 1265564659 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably I should paste the whole thing < 1265564666 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, what does quad do? < 1265564689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=17242 < 1265564698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: isn't this more complicated than a syn->syn reductor :P < 1265564724 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I don't know < 1265564761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've always wrote reducers like that and they seem "simple enough", perhaps slightly longer code but less semantic overhead i think < 1265564785 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that looks pretty simple. < 1265564827 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the semantic domain way has better theoretical properties < 1265564879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you don't need them... < 1265564900 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Suomen kieli eli suomi kuuluu uralilaiseen kielikuntaan ja sen suomalais-ugrilaisen haaran itämerensuomalaisiin kieliin. < 1265564903 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Finnish language, ie Finnish belongs to Uralic language family, and the Finno-Ugric branch of the Baltic-Finnish languages. < 1265564915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a very good automatic translation! < 1265564928 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en eli < 1265564929 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie < 1265564942 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess ie is an English word now. :) < 1265564968 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I think that translation is pretty much perfect. < 1265564996 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate kielikuntaan < 1265564998 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var < 1265565012 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en kielikuntaan < 1265565013 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language family < 1265565051 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en haaran < 1265565053 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :branch < 1265565158 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, now that I mostly know what the individual words mean, I just have to re-read that sentence until it makes sense. < 1265565161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would seem that my SKI interpreter, though much slower, does not have the severe memory leaks of the Lazy K interpreter. < 1265565175 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats's good!! < 1265565200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In lazyk.cpp, rot13 takes gobs of memory. < 1265565208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en kielikuntaankin < 1265565209 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Language Board in < 1265565214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my SKI interpreter, rot13 runs in constant space. < 1265565225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The power of garbage collection. < 1265565234 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en haarankin < 1265565236 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :branch in < 1265565257 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate haarankin < 1265565259 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var < 1265565263 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet :P < 1265565299 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translateto he Oy, this has a lovely bunch of coconuts in it! < 1265565301 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :אוי, זו חבורה מקסימה של קוקוסים בו! < 1265565308 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translateto he in it < 1265565310 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :αδ < 1265565323 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks like 'ad' in Greek. < 1265565344 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265565393 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translateto he in it in it in it in it in it < 1265565394 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :αδ αδ αδ αδ αδ < 1265565446 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en puhujia < 1265565447 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speakers < 1265565459 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en miljoonaa < 1265565459 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was accurate < 1265565461 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :million < 1265565480 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en on noin viisi miljoonaa < 1265565482 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is around five million < 1265565554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en ei ole noin viittä miljoonaakaan < 1265565555 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even about five million < 1265565607 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does "Suomen kielen puhujia on noin viisi miljoonaa" literally mean "Finnish speakers are around five million"? < 1265565644 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way that you might say "We outnumber you: we are five, and you are only two", in a language other than English. < 1265565647 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a literal translation, something like that, yeah. < 1265565653 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There are around five million Finnish speakers" < 1265565682 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, it's not like that < 1265565711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want the nonsense "Finnish speakers are around five million" literally translated: "Suomen kielen puhujat ovat noin viisi miljoonaa" < 1265565767 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Puhujia on" and "puhujat ovat" seem to be too many words for what they mean. < 1265565800 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that I knew any Finnish at all before coming into this. < 1265565819 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en puhujia on < 1265565821 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Puhujia on x" == "there are x speakers"; "puhujat ovat x" == "[the?] speakers are x" < 1265565821 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speakers < 1265565833 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not too helpful :-P < 1265565836 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en puhujia < 1265565838 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speakers < 1265565839 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en puhujat < 1265565840 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speakers < 1265565841 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en puhujia on < 1265565843 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speakers < 1265565843 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1265565844 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en puhujat ovat < 1265565845 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speakers < 1265565849 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en kaiuttimet < 1265565850 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speakers < 1265565853 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265565871 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are those the electric kind? < 1265565875 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1265565901 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, yeah, I was forgetting that "puhuj-" is "speakers". < 1265565911 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the citation form of that? < 1265565916 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Citation form? < 1265565932 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The form you would find in a dictionary. < 1265565954 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd probably find the singular, "puhuja". < 1265565959 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1265565961 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not quite sure what you're after. < 1265565972 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably that. < 1265565978 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might not even find that, you'd only find "to speak", "puhua". < 1265565989 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how dictionaries deal with this kind of thing. < 1265566000 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Puhuja" is probably common enough by itself that you'd find it as well. < 1265566004 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What case is "puhuja"? Nominative? < 1265566024 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, nominative < 1265566030 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might like http://www.ling.helsinki.fi/~fkarlsso/genkau2.html < 1265566119 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up each of those words in a dictionary and memorizes their meanings individually. :P < 1265566177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, you'd only find the first in a dictionary :-P < 1265566225 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A verb equivalent, though the body text here is in Finnish as well: http://koti.mbnet.fi/henrihe/tiede/verbikaava.html < 1265566281 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Heistä suurin osa asuu Suomessa, mutta vanhoja suomenkielisiä väestöryhmiä on Pohjois-Ruotsissa (meänkielen puhujat eli tornionlaaksolaiset), Norjassa (kveenit) sekä Inkerissä, jossa suomen kieli on 1900-luvun mittaan suurimmaksi osaksi hävinnyt. < 1265566282 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Why learning Haskell/Python makes you a worse programmer" < 1265566283 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The majority of them live in Finland, but the old Finnish-speaking population groups in northern Sweden (ie speakers Meänkieli Torne Valley people), Norway (Kvens) and Ingria, where the Finnish language is over the 1900s for the most part disappeared. < 1265566306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "Oh no it lets you write things more easily!" < 1265566307 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that translation doesn't really make sense. < 1265566328 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it seems to be more that you get spoiled < 1265566330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/ < 1265566349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems fairly understandable to me < 1265566389 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell-python? < 1265566392 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the new C/C++? < 1265566400 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The majority of them live in Finland, but the old groups where the Finnish language is over the 1900s for the most part disappeared." < 1265566407 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't make much sense to me. < 1265566431 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to insert an "are" after "groups" < 1265566469 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the thing at the end is trying to say that they have disappeared over the 1900s < 1265566478 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1265566488 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So... < 1265566495 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's mostly the former issue that's confusing, IMO. < 1265566507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh no it lets the computer focus on the trivial stuff" < 1265566575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it's "Oh no, I love Python and Haskell so much that I can't write C# code without getting depressed" < 1265566585 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en vanhoja < 1265566587 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old < 1265566614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So, he sucks at programming, and languages aren't going to change that. < 1265566614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got it. < 1265566617 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish->English is so non-injective :-) < 1265566813 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so convenient how no matter what channel I'm in, there are always suomen puhujia close at hand. :P < 1265566987 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Finland's population is actually 5.5 billion, not million; we just like to stay undercover that way < 1265568038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1265568054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Well, it's a GNU thing; those aren't known for sensible man pages. The actual official documentation is pretty clear on PDF files. <-- well yes, that was how I found out about it < 1265568063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Ah yes, Luke Plant. < 1265568081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: And in general you have to say something like "-dTextAlphaBits=4 -dGraphicsAlphaBits=4" to get subsample antialiasing. (Can't say offhand why it'd happen by default if you pass in a PDF file.) <-- "not mentioned in man page" ;) < 1265568084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A creationist Christian. < 1265568093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not someone to rely on to be anything other than a blithering moron. < 1265568117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've read some of the drivel on his blog occasionally, and it's all that. < 1265568134 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found myself demotivated when writing C# >.> < 1265568143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't use shitty languages < 1265568261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# is good at that. < 1265568274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not all that unique. < 1265568287 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just an imperative language with objects. < 1265568359 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we've got plenty of those < 1265568374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too many. < 1265568379 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1265568380 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woops < 1265568397 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry guys I didn't mean to!!!! < 1265568401 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, alise is probably right < 1265568402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Expression Problem may have solutions handling both rows and columns, but adding columns is far more valuable than rows. < 1265568409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So to hell with OOP. < 1265568416 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh still on the expression problem?? < 1265568427 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you know you can do BOTH in haskell? < 1265568429 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1265568431 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265568435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EITHER* < 1265568449 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, data Exp = Num Int | Add Exp Exp | ..., then write functions on it < 1265568463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay: I WILL finish this dependent typer. < 1265568472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, before tomorrow; then I won't be able to. < 1265568474 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or data Exp = Exp { eval :: Exp -> Int ; show :: Exp -> String, ... }, then write constructors for it < 1265568480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265568496 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got my record syntax wrong but just delete the "Exp ->"'s < 1265568503 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265568537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise won't be happy until he can make functional circuitry < 1265568647 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I wrote a dependent type checkr once but the type system was inconsistent < 1265568663 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not inconsisent < 1265568671 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it didn't have subject reduction < 1265568680 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I realized that eventually, so that was fine < 1265568731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265569033 0 :alise!~5b697d23@gateway/web/freenode/x-azeezpkhqoxdzgwy JOIN :#esoteric < 1265569038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[18:56] * alise realises that infer x == specifiedType won't work if he has dependent types < 1265569048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION realises she has no idea how else to do this < 1265569058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm wayyy out of my league :D < 1265569068 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you got the pronoun right < 1265569093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:48:57 alise won't be happy until he can make functional circuitry < 1265569099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the reduceron is fine :P < 1265569108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circuitry is functional < 1265569109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :event based < 1265569113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this sparks -> other thing < 1265569153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check' vs (L t _) = return t < 1265569154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll do for now < 1265569161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, you wouldn't lie to me, would you? < 1265569163 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1265569171 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why were my Chrome extensions all uninstalled? < 1265569178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you touch yourself at night. < 1265569323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, dear. < 1265569332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inferring variables will be hard, as in I haven't accounted for this. < 1265569343 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't infer anything :P < 1265569345 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too difficult < 1265569355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not infer. < 1265569359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have to keep track of variable's types. < 1265569372 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's the type context < 1265569379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and I'm not doing that, you see. < 1265569384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, yes I am. < 1265569387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. < 1265569388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of. < 1265569406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (A aT rT) <- check' vs f < 1265569411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so I need to do it in the lambda-checking clause < 1265569440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check' vs (N x) = Nothing < 1265569442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't matter for now! < 1265569461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> check SetSet < 1265569462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just * < 1265569463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^_^ < 1265569468 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*_* < 1265569528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> check idL Just (*) -> (t) -> dt *Main> check (idL :. idL) Nothing < 1265569530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spot why I can't do that < 1265569637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fff < 1265569639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many interdependencies < 1265569673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(idL :. (* --> *)) :. idL ? < 1265569692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, idL :. typeofidL :. idL < 1265569695 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's dt? < 1265569709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :de bruijn; t = 0, dt = 1, ddt = 2, etc < 1265569710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t = top < 1265569710 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hehe you are right < 1265569712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d = dip < 1265569724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the value of the argument of that type is pushed for the RHS of -> < 1265569738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which incidentally means that evaluating your whole program in the typechecker is trivial :) < 1265569750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no IO so it doesn't matter < 1265569953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:47:29 like, data Exp = Num Int | Add Exp Exp | ..., then write functions on it < 1265569954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:47:54 or data Exp = Exp { eval :: Exp -> Int ; show :: Exp -> String, ... }, then write constructors for it < 1265569960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this + typeclasses might allow for both? < 1265570084 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I don't want to say no but I dont see it < 1265570097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was just thinking that typeclasses solve... most problems < 1265570102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway your dependent solution doesn't require dependentness < 1265570107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type families = type-level functions, i bet you could do it with those < 1265570124 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sure that my way make essential use of full spectrum dependent types < 1265570133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was Snoc again? < 1265570147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snoc was just an explanative device < 1265570166 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to implement it that way, infact I think I realized a slightly better form < 1265570186 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's all the same idea < 1265570204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the better form? < 1265570207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I just meant the definition :P < 1265570228 0 :tombom__!tombom@82.14.59.239 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265570291 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265570298 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265570391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you know how the f gets the rest of the list? < 1265570397 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f?? < 1265570397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what information does it need to make the ROW/COL decision? < 1265570401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number of rows and the number of cols, right? < 1265570403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f in Snoc f < 1265570425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus the types of the cols < 1265570430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the rows < 1265570432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you just have a matrix n m, then functions row : matrix n m -> vector n -> matrix n (S m) < 1265570442 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and col : matrix n m -> vector m -> matrix (S n) m < 1265570450 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I got my n/m row/col right way around < 1265570459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've forgotten the definition of snoc :( < 1265570462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1265570467 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you can forget about snow < 1265570479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snow! < 1265570480 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snoc* < 1265570551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIGGEHHHHH < 1265570611 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"matrix : nat -> nat -> *" is a simplification though.. the real thing would be a bit more involved < 1265570625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what would a table tarpit be, I wonder < 1265570627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265570630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do nested tables make sense? < 1265570667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, then obviously the whole program is one table, and there are columns that operate on the rows, which are tables; and the only atomic value is the empty table < 1265570730 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265570800 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265570808 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nested table doesn't really mean anything < 1265570816 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only reason you'd need to think about multiple tables is: < 1265570823 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you have more than a 2D programming problems < 1265570824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: how been < 1265570840 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you have some kind of mututally recursive system of 2D programming problems < 1265570844 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or both!) < 1265570858 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutualy recursive infinite dimensional progarmming sounds hard thuogh < 1265570869 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey augur I was listening to the space flight remix < 1265570880 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOSSAT :O < 1265570880 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :live mission was on soma < 1265570891 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows it going with ? < 1265570893 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you < 1265570895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh right! the launch this morning < 1265570907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is good with me < 1265570957 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265570982 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur me and ehird solved the exeprssion problem using deptypes < 1265570988 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once and forall! < 1265570993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :been reading a bunch of some interesting grammar formalisms. improved the wikipages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indexed_grammar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatory_categorial_grammar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree-adjoining_grammar and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_equivalence < 1265571005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND i created the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_grammar < 1265571011 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I still need to get back to CCGs... < 1265571026 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you edited them < 1265571036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats the expression problem? < 1265571038 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool I will reread < 1265571065 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur you've done really good with these!! < 1265571085 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for all but the CCG one all i did was add the equivalency note, and some examples for LIG < 1265571090 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the head grammar page is all new tho < 1265571193 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, there's a new version of Haskell? < 1265571241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what < 1265571247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell 2010 < 1265571263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah. < 1265571268 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new spec < 1265571317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: link augur to my pastie about the expression problem < 1265571318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR I WILL < 1265571331 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1265571334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/812459.txt?key=cadkhg4ho0qiceepz1a7w < 1265571359 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265571476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; GHC doesn't implement it yet, though. < 1265571487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(won't be too long -- most of what's not done is syntax tweaks) < 1265571547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: interesting problem! < 1265571566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah MissPiggy came up with a nice solution < 1265571597 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my solution would be, do like haskell does, but allow discontinuous definitions of function alternatives. < 1265571615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preprocess it to all be continuous, if desired. < 1265571668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She does that. < 1265571684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Anyway, that still doesn't let you add constructors to a data type. < 1265571695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265571727 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but your link doesnt specify that as necessary, does it? < 1265571736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does. < 1265571738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what adding a row is. < 1265571748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right, because for haskell you'd have to have them all the same datatype < 1265571752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, here's the syntax I came up with: http://pastie.org/812720.txt?key=p9mayakdi0z2wka3vzwtq It would be implemented at compile-time; MissPiggy's solution is runtime. < 1265571753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :union types! < 1265571764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point is that they're the same type < 1265571779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type classes! < 1265572084 0 :znerc!~user@dslb-094-222-127-241.pools.arcor-ip.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265572158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, guys, if anyone wants papers from JSTOR or ACM let me know < 1265572369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im also off to target. BYE < 1265572535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1265572963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asd < 1265573011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you'd think that typechecking and evaluating the dependently-typed lambda calculus would be really simple... < 1265573025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like one of those "inherent" concepts that should be really simple to express < 1265573030 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I wouldn't < 1265573034 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265573034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would < 1265573054 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a simple (dependently typed) lambda calculus, and that's quite easy to implement < 1265573060 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not quite good enough < 1265573075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso < 1265573141 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you know how types are equal if they are definitionally equal < 1265573155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: Vector (1 + 1) = Vector 2 < 1265573173 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one annoying thing is if you don't have eta conversion, then stuff like < 1265573189 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists Nat (\x -> P x) is not convertible with exists Nat P < 1265573194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265573197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x :: Set(x) < 1265573198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x :: Set(f) = (y::T) -> S, Set(x) = T, y = x, S < 1265573198 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that's just a minor annoyance, < 1265573202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\(x::T) -> ... :: S :: (x::T) -> S < 1265573203 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265573204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x::T) -> T :: * < 1265573207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* :: * < 1265573213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ the dependent lambda calculus i'm trying to implement < 1265573247 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's more to be said about this which is sort of detailed < 1265573264 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume < 1265573265 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x::T) -> T :: * < 1265573267 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually means, < 1265573276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's syntax :: type < 1265573278 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T :: *, T' :: * |- (x::T) -> T' :: * < 1265573302 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's nto quite right still < 1265573305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's closer :P < 1265573318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x::T) -> S :: Set(T) = *, Set(x) = T, Set(S) = *, * < 1265573371 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gamma |- x :: T <=> Gamma(x) = T < 1265573411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeh i was just writing it quickly in the form it came into my head < 1265573473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Syntax = Var Integer | App Syntax Syntax | Lambda Syntax Syntax | Arrow Syntax Syntax | Set < 1265573483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the semantics is just (Semantics -> Semantics), right? < 1265573489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it have Var Integer too < 1265573576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265573580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can my thingy type \x->x x? < 1265573585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so < 1265573587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no a = a -> b < 1265573611 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semantics = Semantics -> Semantics is a good first approximation < 1265573622 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to implement quote it needs to be fudged around a bit, nothing major < 1265573803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons ∈ (α ∈ ★) → (β ∈ ★) → (γ ∈ ★) → (α → β → γ) → γ < 1265573837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons ∷ (α∷★) → (β∷★) → (γ∷★) → (α → β → γ) → γ < 1265573841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still think the latter looks nicer < 1265573855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons : (α:★) → (β:★) → (γ:★) → (α → β → γ) → γ < 1265573857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks good too, though < 1265573860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the last is best < 1265573865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1265574002 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol those stars look awful in irssi < 1265574181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265574729 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-0-36.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265574971 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww. eww. eww. what kind of language is that < 1265574983 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GREEKS DID NOT MAKE THE MODERN COMPUTER < 1265575024 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1265575267 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265575543 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265575556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's oklo the pol! < 1265575581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost no relation to prozac the bear < 1265575692 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265576109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: functional, bitch < 1265576134 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very functional when you don't have loonycode < 1265576144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, some mathematicians definitely were involved. < 1265576149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: the 90s called < 1265576156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they want you to stop using windows < 1265576202 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really depends on the situation as to whether using unicode is a good idea or not. < 1265576231 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here... uh, you'd have to whip up some special functions to deal with unicode chars like they were bytes or something < 1265576245 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, an fread of some sort. < 1265576246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: Ah, you still think a string is a char *. < 1265576253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You still think C defines the world. < 1265576257 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here you'd use an int * < 1265576263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You still think stone-age computing rules over mathematics. < 1265576271 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if C was good enough for the romans... < 1265576276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In short, you're the computer-science equivalent of a dinosaur. < 1265576292 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, at least i know how to code stuff which runs fast < 1265576300 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i usually don't, but nevertheless i can. < 1265576305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except considering how fast computing changes, you're especially Ludditish. < 1265576309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely you've noticed the change? < 1265576311 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION opens up a can of ASM and spills it on your shirt < 1265576319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in wildly successful, and survived for > 200 million years < 1265576334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! You think hand-written asm written by _anyone_ other than a genius can beat modern C compilers? < 1265576337 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASM will always be "potentially faster", by the way. < 1265576341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you'd at least stop at C, a vaguely defensible position. < 1265576368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And apparently you think all the world's an imperative R/CISC architecture of the usual sort. Pay no attention to the Lisp Machines and Reducerons behind the curtain. < 1265576384 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't seen ASM from many "modern C compilers" but usually they're bashing at memory < 1265576388 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265576392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This may in fact end up being the most tedious two-way about computing I've ever seen. < 1265576394 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the code I've seen < 1265576398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: you are clearly ignorant of modern optimisation techniques < 1265576416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck manually performing intense intraprocedural optimisation < 1265576454 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! < 1265576462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be more polite if I didn't know there were so many like you. < 1265576466 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically i'm someone who's kinda pissed at the fact that everyone's using 3D hardware in their demos, not because it's 3D hardware but because it's all closed and requires the use of specific libraries and stuff < 1265576482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I just miss some conversation or was that a non-sequitur? < 1265576490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: All your base is cool again? < 1265576494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXCELLENT < 1265576497 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it may help you understand my thinking < 1265576510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not really. < 1265576517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like open things too. < 1265576538 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a 4KB demo using libraries to run itself is technically cheating < 1265576543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: should I read Triangle and Robert? < 1265576555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course! < 1265576559 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if you want to be pedantic, i could whip up some code to turn 80x25 into mode 13 < 1265576565 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/o INT 0x10 < 1265576573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but. so many comics < 1265576594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but you're planning to live forever, aren't you < 1265576630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd like to, that doesn't mean i think it's going to happen :P < 1265576647 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to be "oh yeah well this is futuristic so we'll just use it because it's the future". well, you wonder why people refer to "the good old days". < 1265576648 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my base < 1265576673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: HA! You think functional programming, which is literally identical to mathematics and logic, is some new-fangled thing? < 1265576683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's imperative programming that was the unfortunate blip in the history of calculation. < 1265576715 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that functional programming isn't insanely recent at all < 1265576732 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8 is definitely more recent than functional programming, though < 1265576739 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, you can even do OOP in ASM < 1265576748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the symbols I am using are ancient. < 1265576750 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can functional programming be liberated from the von noymann parradime? < 1265576756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, you know what, this really is the most tedious conversation I've had. < 1265576775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imperatives aren't new-fangled either, see kant < 1265576780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as I'm returning to hell tomorrow, I don't feel the need to continue to perpetrate irritated boredom on myself. < 1265576784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Har. < 1265576823 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that the greek alphabet is ancient, but the current usual implementation requires you to either work on unicode chars or use a weird encoding < 1265576853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[21:07] == IGNORE Unknown command < 1265576856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn you, webchat.freenode.net. < 1265576926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I guess the answer to "will this ordeal soften me or harden me" is the latter, at least while it's still going on. < 1265576934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm being a wonderful asshole. < 1265576945 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and my ignore list is wonderfully persistent. < 1265576962 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is gm?? < 1265576965 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you new < 1265576967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey. < 1265576967 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION == Greasemonkey < 1265576969 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1265576969 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1265576971 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey < 1265576972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's been irritating for a few years now. < 1265576983 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i don't remember you < 1265576987 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does feel like years, doesn't it? < 1265576990 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except from, ooh, a few days ago < 1265576991 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always greasing up the place < 1265576991 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265576999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: i've been here a long while. < 1265577018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it has been years; 2006, according to the wiki < 1265577032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: why did you fuck with it! < 1265577054 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what other names would you have used? < 1265577071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: wait, what? < 1265577076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Johnathan, Omaha, Harpsichord, Robotic Overloard #3.9, Bob. < 1265577133 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... don't really ring a bell < 1265577166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: see history < 1265577171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also ᚠᚡᚢᚣᚤᚥᚦᚧᚨ. < 1265577310 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i have a piece of paper, i deal with numbers. < 1265577317 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i have a piece of code, i deal with bytes. < 1265577338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were using your wonderful ignore list. < 1265577350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please do, I'm uninterested in your drivel and if it would stop you talking to me that would be great. < 1265577355 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, even though i code in languages which deal with all sorts of numbers, with and without decimal points < 1265577368 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i actually have some power here... < 1265577443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a world... where one man... must face his demons... < 1265577445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For he has... < 1265577450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE POWER TO ANNOY < 1265577456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In cinemas feb 14 < 1265577511 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand you have the power to be condescending < 1265577521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you deal with *bytes* in your programs? < 1265577526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I deal with *values*. < 1265577532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if my life was any better and you were any less idiotic I would not be trolling you. :) < 1265577532 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I deal with *stars* < 1265577546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and morphisms in the category Hask. < 1265577560 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do actually deal with values, but when it comes to files, i have to deal with bytes < 1265577573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Files! Another wonderfully retarded blip in history. < 1265577588 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with files? < 1265577595 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to try plan 9 < 1265577602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bunch; maybe i'll explain sometime when I'm not having fun with an idiot < 1265577603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Made perfect sense when C was unusually high-level. < 1265577607 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried it, it's easy to break the GUI < 1265577611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's been a few decades now. < 1265577613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: plan 9 is the closest to making files bearable < 1265577621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically makes them universal identifiers in tuple-space < 1265577633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Review of Plan 9 < 1265577636 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you mean plan 9 is the closes to making all bearables files? < 1265577636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to break the GUI. < 1265577636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- < 1265577641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1265577646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, now that was actually funny. < 1265577692 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, files have no structure other than being a series of bytes. Implementing data structures in them is like manually implementing C semantics with an array and indices < 1265577701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is to say, tedious and pointless. < 1265577717 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1265577726 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's quite a difference between english and japanese, so to speak. < 1265577727 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like < 1265577747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want a "filesystem" that's actually storing data structures instead of just files in a tree < 1265577763 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would be like a tree of trees instead of a tree of files? < 1265577765 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1265577766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if files had no negatives I would oppose them for the simple fact that an orthogonally-persisted ecosystem of values is simply superior < 1265577771 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... < 1265577777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a "filesystem" to just mean data structures that are persistent. < 1265577780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and allows you hierarchical, non-hierarchical, tagged, searched and everything organisation simply through creating data structures < 1265577799 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd love for my IO to consist of "persist(foo)". < 1265577799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Persistent data structures? Why, what redundancy! < 1265577807 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds very difficult to organize < 1265577812 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what happened to amend? < 1265577821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: If you want a tree structure, like a symlinkless filesystem, just create it. < 1265577822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No harder. < 1265577829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want symlinks, use references. < 1265577835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want a searchable pool, do it. < 1265577838 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's not going to make itself < 1265577851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: That's why my main field of study is focused on making it. < 1265577856 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1265577876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Are you familiar with Smalltalk? < 1265577886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An apology for the rather harsh bluntness, by the way; I'm grumpy right now. < 1265577984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to confuse ignorance with wilful stupidity because I forget that not everyone really knows how possible, easy and flexible the superior system is, or even knows of the superior system. < 1265578033 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is, what am i confusing arrogance with? < 1265578046 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1265578077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone trying to distract himself. < 1265578080 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265578174 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265578245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1265578265 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i think ruby 1.9.1 is comparable in speed with python 2.6.4 < 1265578273 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265578274 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... silly me < 1265578281 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roughly half-speed ._> < 1265578287 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice the mixing rate < 1265578307 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.9.0 is pretty slow though < 1265578530 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265578838 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a package in ubuntu called "sl" < 1265578852 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you type sl accidentally, it suggests that you install it < 1265578863 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apt-cache search sl | grep ^sl gives us this: < 1265578864 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sl - Correct you if you type `sl' by mistake < 1265578882 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :25.3kB apparently < 1265578886 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1265578910 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude you should totally install it, it's awesome < 1265578920 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes an ascii train go across the screen < 1265579051 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.125.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265579064 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265579162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Testing, testing, one two three. < 1265579194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sl is just annoying IMO. < 1265579197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never make that typo anyway. < 1265579220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that there's no way to kill it without opening a new terminal makes it more of a life-ruiner rather than a stick. < 1265579238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there should be a carrot, getting ls right speeds up your system for a few minutes or something. < 1265579289 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently sl is short for "steam locomotive" < 1265579323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; it's a rather terrible pun. < 1265579339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, my XChat looks civilised. < 1265579472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imgur.com/CQv7v.png < 1265579480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd show the window borders, but apparently gnome-screenshot and scrot fail at compiz. < 1265579533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DejaVu Serif is actually a pretty nice serif. < 1265579795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well dejavu is nice but we've seen it all before < 1265579843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tabs?? < 1265579851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, button-tabs? < 1265579905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats a huge tree with only two lines. < 1265579969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :URW Palladio L is also a nice font. < 1265580259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, value-level (∀a.b) is (λa.b). What's value-level (∃a.b)? < 1265580277 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a*b < 1265580287 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a,b) < 1265580289 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything like that < 1265580310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1265580321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1265580323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you are right. < 1265580354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: What about the literal (∃a.a)? < 1265580379 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it?? < 1265580395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that translate to as a value? < 1265580400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you replace exists with forall, that's id in value-land. < 1265580427 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a,a) sholud work, but also (a,a') < 1265580442 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't have to be the same a < 1265580462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but those would be specific as. < 1265580491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps my question simply makes no sense :P < 1265580704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i understand that ghc implements exists a. TypeClass a => Whatever a as a tuple containing the typeclass instance and the value < 1265580748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something close to that < 1265580778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if there is no typeclass, only the value is necessary < 1265580794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, (exists a. a) is 0 bits... < 1265580808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1265580808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to store the value because the only information you can extract from it is that it exists. < 1265580826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1265580830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1265580830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seq, remember < 1265580834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1265580843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, seq and unsafePerformIO are not "really Haskell". :) < 1265580850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Really Haskell" is defined as the subset of Haskell that makes sense. < 1265580851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seq is official < 1265580860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The committee is wrong. < 1265580890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: unsafePerformIO, FWIW, only exists as part of the FFI. < 1265580945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the new 2010 revision modifies that though < 1265580947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bennyhillifier.com/?id=mwDKMiAfxFE < 1265580960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Top of the two bots in the Google Tron AI competition, fighting. < 1265580961 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where can I see the changes in 2010? < 1265580962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To Benny Hill. < 1265580977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/ < 1265581017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Two of the top < 1265581032 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The link on that page seems broken < 1265581034 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Exists (T : *) (P : T -> *) where < 1265581043 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Witness : (t : T) -> P t -> Exists T P < 1265581053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Ah, dependent typists. Always writing everything in the language. < 1265581066 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent typists :D < 1265581068 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265581091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Cult of Dependent Typists & their Honourable Languages Thereof, est. 1980 < 1265581099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't really know how old dependent types are.) < 1265581100 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265581108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if dependent types have a nicer solution to the typeclass problem than typeclasses. < 1265581144 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265581150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't Agda supposedly have both? < 1265581169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's any issue with having both. < 1265581173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't really like typeclasses all that much. < 1265581189 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda doesn't have typeclasses < 1265581190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that Ur does it with implicit module parameters matching a certain signature. < 1265581195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a nice solution. < 1265581203 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sort of weird because I'm not sure if you can actually add typeclasses < 1265581225 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean you can pass them explicitly but that probably doesn't count < 1265581226 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right didn't oleg do something proving the equivalence of modules and type classes. < 1265581231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+_ : {a:Set} -> {Num a} -> a -> a -> a < 1265581244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Num : Set -> ModuleSignatureThingy < 1265581251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that. < 1265581253 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has been playing with Ur today < 1265581258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(functorial modules, presumably) < 1265581259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the implementation: < 1265581285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+_ {_} {n} x y = n._+_ x y < 1265581287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. < 1265581289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get the idea. < 1265581309 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, working link please? < 1265581317 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265581317 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with that is you still need the compiler to choose (ARBITRARITLY!!) a Num instance for a < 1265581319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To what? http://bennyhillifier.com/?id=mwDKMiAfxFE? < 1265581335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: same with values that belong to multiple sets in foralls! < 1265581338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has to pick one! < 1265581346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://bennyhillifier.com/?id=mwDKMiAfxFE < 1265581349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the final ? breaks it < 1265581353 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah < 1265581355 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not consider "ou can see the list of [query:?status=new&status=assigned&status=reopened&state=accepted&milestone=Haskell+2010&order=priority changes in Haskell 2010]." to be helpful < 1265581358 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's scary stuff < 1265581369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh. < 1265581372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just google haskell prime or w/e < 1265581388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Well, it picks the most specific type it can infer, right? < 1265581394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most specific set. < 1265581394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of a value. < 1265581396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a forall. < 1265581413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So all we need to define is how a Num-implementing module can be "more specific" than another and we're set. < 1265581428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps more functions explicitly implemented. < 1265581438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or more concrete types. < 1265581446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there are two equally-specific ones, you must manually specify one. < 1265581518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1265581521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds a picture of oleg. i never thought of him as that old! < 1265581524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing about typeclasses is SYNTAx < 1265581534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: link < 1265581536 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't add them without hacking the compiler < 1265581537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine him as a 30-something guy < 1265581541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just being so fucking cool < 1265581549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no employer, he just has money, buys stuff, you know < 1265581550 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's so good about them anyway, modules are probably better < 1265581553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly just sits around, publishing < 1265581570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that's another guy with the same! < 1265581570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: cayenne has no modules because its products (records) are powerful enough to serve as it < 1265581572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as one < 1265581574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :) < 1265581577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think he's a private fello < 1265581580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/w/ < 1265581587 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Oleg Kiselyov, director of Influenza Research Institute") < 1265581594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so if modules are better than typeclasses < 1265581600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we just need cayenne records and that's it! < 1265581622 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265581632 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how you implement records? :) < 1265581642 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1265581642 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now an Early Edition addict < 1265581651 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that idea < 1265581655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~augustss/cayenne/ < 1265581656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask them < 1265581660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, it's augustss < 1265581665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know he did cayenne!! < 1265581669 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oleg works for the navy < 1265581680 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't he ? some kind of waterry thing < 1265581708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~augustss/cayenne/examples.html < 1265581712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cayenne's printf implementation is slick < 1265581714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck wikipedia? "Oleg Kiselyov (born 11 January 1967) is a Russian handball player." < 1265581721 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAND EGG < 1265581762 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :egghand? < 1265581840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I think cayenne records are basically haskell records < 1265581842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except automatically typed < 1265581857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the type of {foo=3,bar=\a->a} is {foo::Int,bar::a->a} or whatever < 1265581870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I realised something < 1265581876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my dependent LC doesn't have any way to extract an arrow < 1265581879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the only composite type) < 1265581934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think I should add it? Maybe it could be a built-in function < 1265581956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :destarr : * -> c -> (a -> b -> c) -> c < 1265581971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does extract an arrow mean though? < 1265581982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> b) => (a,b) < 1265582007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could add pattern matching, but that'd be the only thing it'd be useful for < 1265582093 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm this _might_ be him, http://www.flickr.com/photos/eelcovisser/283343950/ (it is in a computer scientists set) < 1265582121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personal home page: Paul Kelly < 1265582121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paul H J Kelly. Professor of Software Technology, Group Leader, Software Performance Optimisation Department of Computing (map); Imperial College London ... < 1265582122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same guy? < 1265582130 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oleg is the one in blue < 1265582133 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1265582174 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so you're sure? it was the only plausible picture on the first page of google hits for "oleg kiselyov" < 1265582179 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's his only t-shirt http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7990603720514207956&ei=OkBvS7SkMovL-AbZwtHjBg&q=oleg+# :) < 1265582187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(picture search) < 1265582253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that crushes my theory he is trying to keep his real appearance secret < 1265582292 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do keep in mind that the pictures and videos are not necessarily of the actual oleg < 1265582305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner hah it's just a puppet! < 1265582305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265582317 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: indeed, just a puppet < 1265582323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265582366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0) (λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0)) (λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0) < 1265582371 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's another picture of Oleg on this http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/people/index.html < 1265582390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1265582411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guy Steele < 1265582412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme / CL / Fortress < 1265582415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, just ignore the whole Java thing < 1265582421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehee < 1265582441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i already knew about that one < 1265582442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: < 1265582443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0) (λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0)) (λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0) < 1265582446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make sense to you? < 1265582472 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was part of what started my conspiracy theory, after all < 1265582477 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's id id id? < 1265582480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265582481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wouldn't typecheck < 1265582484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1265582490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265582491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the types < 1265582491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265582510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't do implicit arguments without full inferring can i :( < 1265582519 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no 'full inferring' < 1265582527 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's undecidible < 1265582532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1265582533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i mean < 1265582537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lots" of work inferring < 1265582544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to some cheap trick < 1265582545 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265582546 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best you can do is make a powerful algorithm that works well in normal situations < 1265582555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, check does return the type < 1265582556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ehhh < 1265582562 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are some small classes of inference you can do in a principled way < 1265582576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i care about is inferring type arguments :) < 1265582577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's very hard work.. and I think you probably need HOU to even get started < 1265582584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's easier still < 1265582591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I could fake that since my typechecker returns a type it knows it is < 1265582594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but eh < 1265582616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((((λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0) (★ → 0 → 1)) (λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0)) (★ → 0 → 1)) (λ:(★ → 0 → 1). 0) < 1265582616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There. < 1265582618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id id id < 1265582643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes cons out of sheer insanity < 1265582672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a:* -> b:* -> a -> b -> c:* -> (a -> b -> c) -> c < 1265582750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consL :: Syntax < 1265582750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consL = < 1265582750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Lambda (Arrow Set (Arrow Set (Arrow (Var 1) (Arrow (Var 1) ...)))) $ < 1265582750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Lambda (Arrow Set (Arrow (Var 1) (Arrow (Var 1) ...))) $ < 1265582751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Lambda (Arrow (Var 1) (Arrow (Var 1) ...)) $ < 1265582752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Lambda (Arrow (Var 1) ...) $ < 1265582754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is getting boring fast :P < 1265582777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to mention confusing < 1265582777 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265582783 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's pretty confusing < 1265582804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so after c:*... what the fuck number is a < 1265582808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1265582812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b is 3 < 1265582813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c is 0 < 1265582822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that'll change with the arguments of the function :D < 1265582825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just add one) < 1265583006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo3.hs:29:132: parse error on input `)' < 1265583007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIEEEEEEEEEEEEe < 1265583042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ:(★ → ★ → 1 → 1 → ★ → 4 → 4 → 2 → 2). λ:(★ → 1 → 1 → ★ → 4 → 4 → 2 → 2). λ:(1 → 1 → ★ → 4 → 4 → 2 → 2). λ:(1 → ★ → 4 → 4 → 2 → 2). λ:(★ → 4 → 4 → 2 → 2). λ:(4 → 4 → 2 → 2). ((0) (3)) (2) < 1265583043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ^ < 1265583055 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not debugging that :P < 1265583061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need more parens < 1265583068 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write a function called --> that turns names into indices < 1265583078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the opposite way, too < 1265583079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stupid broken A/V sync on this YouTube video < 1265583082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can see what the fuck will happen < 1265583086 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can write ("x", T) --> "x" instead of T -> #0 < 1265583092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ:((★) → (★) → (1) → (1) → (★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:((★) → (1) → (1) → (★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:((1) → (1) → (★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:((1) → (★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:((★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:(((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). ((0) (3)) (2) < 1265583100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cons < 1265583108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now in the sugar language I wrote over this, here's what it'll look like < 1265583183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons : (α:★) → (β:★) → α → β → (γ:★) → (α → β → γ) → γ < 1265583192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons _ _ x y _ f = f x y < 1265583212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: actually, if I define some standard representation for a tuple < 1265583227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can trivially infer an ((α:★),α) given an α < 1265583236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because I must know the type already, since I'm doing typechecking < 1265583290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1265583327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/813947.txt?key=s3kxmqh9xb0pvxoycdqzpw < 1265583331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May I never have to write such a thing again < 1265583352 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons ?? < 1265583377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x y f. f x y < 1265583382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pair-creator. < 1265583384 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yikes O_O < 1265583389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependently typed! < 1265583393 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it so typed < 1265583398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty-printed (ha), it's < 1265583398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jusst make it simple :P < 1265583399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :λ:((★) → (★) → (1) → (1) → (★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:((★) → (1) → (1) → (★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:((1) → (1) → (★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:((1) → (★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:((★) → ((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). λ:(((4) → (4) → 2) → 2). ((0) (3)) (2) < 1265583403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Because I have no other choice. < 1265583407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to curry because this is the LC. < 1265583410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION almost spat tea out < 1265583420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have to specify the type of every function, because this is no-inferring, typed LC. < 1265583422 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :through whoms nose < 1265583433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have to have additional Set arguments because this is the dependently-typed LC. < 1265583584 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265583756 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265583926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My variable names: αβγδεζηθικμνξοπρστυφχψω < 1265583940 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are hot < 1265583950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the Greek alphabet. It's beautiful. < 1265583960 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should set it up so that alt-shift types greek < 1265584012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMAL (In My Awesome Language), typing abcdefg... will automatically convert. :-) < 1265584064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You and your derived-from-Egyptian scripts. < 1265584087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode has up to quadruple prime :D < 1265584128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't compose together well, though < 1265584132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different numbers of primes < 1265584303 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks unicode is a bit stupid < 1265584374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1265584388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has some stupidities, like the super/subscripts; it shouldn't be trying for a formatting vehicle. < 1265584393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, behold: < 1265584394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty idL < 1265584394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λ:((α:★) → (β:α) → α))) α. α) < 1265584413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty consL < 1265584413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λ:((α:★) → (β:★) → (γ:α) → (δ:β) → (ε:★) → (ζ:(ζ:α) → (η:β) → ε))) → δ))))))) α. (λ:((β:★) → (γ:α) → (δ:β) → (ε:★) → (ζ:(ζ:α) → (η:β) → ε))) → δ)))))) β. (λ:((γ:α) → (δ:β) → (ε:★) → (ζ:(ζ:α) → (η:β) → ε))) → δ))))) γ. (λ:((δ:β) → (ε:★) → (ζ:(ζ:α) → (η:β) → ε))) → δ)))) δ. (λ:((ε:★) → (ζ:(ζ:α) → (η:β) → ε))) → δ))) ε < 1265584414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. (λ:((ζ:(ζ:α) → (η:β) → ε))) → δ)) ζ. ζ γ δ)))))) < 1265584418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I hope that clears things up for you. < 1265584443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(ζ:(ζ:α)" - bug or just plain awesomeness? < 1265584448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll go with bug. < 1265584452 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLAIN AWESOME < 1265584464 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ζ:ζζζζζζζζ < 1265584466 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265584478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's because since you can't technically reference it from inside itself, it's free. :-) < 1265584564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: think I should change the type signatures to (λ(var:type):(result type). )? Not sure if that's actually any better :P < 1265584596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why < 1265584601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let v = ident vs < 1265584602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : vs' = v:vs < 1265584605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complains about v not being defined < 1265584663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty consL < 1265584663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λ:((β:★) → (γ:★) → (δ:γ) → (ε:δ) → (ζ:★) → (η:(θ:δ) → (ι:ε) → η))) → ε))))))) α. (λ:((γ:★) → (δ:γ) → (ε:δ) → (ζ:★) → (η:(θ:δ) → (ι:ε) → η))) → ε)))))) β. (λ:((δ:γ) → (ε:δ) → (ζ:★) → (η:(θ:δ) → (ι:ε) → η))) → ε))))) γ. (λ:((ε:δ) → (ζ:★) → (η:(θ:δ) → (ι:ε) → η))) → ε)))) δ. (λ:((ζ:★) → (η:(θ:δ) → (ι:ε) → η))) → ε))) ε < 1265584663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. (λ:((η:(θ:δ) → (ι:ε) → η))) → ε)) ζ. ζ γ δ)))))) < 1265584668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: It's simple, really. < 1265584679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pity the foo that has to debug their code generator for this < 1265584752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it would probably help if I didn't try and avoid types and variables clashing (same list) :) < 1265584865 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265584904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty (Arrow (Arrow Set Set) (Arrow Set Set)) < 1265584905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(α : (β : ★) → ★) → (β : ★) → ★ < 1265584909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably retain used variables < 1265584934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265584938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this could do with becoming monadic < 1265584990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean to make it even more incomprehensible? < 1265584999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1265585077 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265585078 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265585104 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265585116 0 :znerc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265585338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1265585350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you raed peter morris' work on universe of strictly positive typs < 1265585661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1265585667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265585686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will implement a new feature in the prettifier < 1265585696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguments whose values are ignored in the type will be just shown as their type < 1265585792 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265586319 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265586714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty idL < 1265586714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λ(α:★) : (α : α) → *** Exception: List.genericIndex: index too large. < 1265586773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265587077 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265587221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty idL < 1265587221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λα : (α : ★) → (β : α) → α. α) < 1265587230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty consL < 1265587231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λα : (α : ★) → (β : ★) → (γ : α) → (δ : β) → (ε : ★) → (θ : (ζ : α) → (η : β) → ε) → ζ. (λβ : (ι : ★) → (κ : θ) → (μ : ι) → (ν : ★) → (π : (ξ : θ) → (ο : ι) → ν) → ξ. (λγ : (ρ : ο) → (σ : π) → (τ : ★) → (χ : (υ : ο) → (φ : π) → τ) → υ. (λδ : (ψ : φ) → (ω : ★) → (γ′ : (α′ : υ) → (β′ : φ) → ω) → α′. (λε : (δ′ : ★) → (η < 1265587231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :′ : (ε′ : ω) → (ζ′ : α′) → δ′) → ε′. (λζ : (κ′ : (θ′ : γ′) → (ι′ : δ′) → η′) → θ′. ζ γ δ)))))) < 1265587234 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265587311 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265587394 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265587413 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265587625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: in a dependent lang the function arguments to church numerals don't have to be a->a do they < 1265587632 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty? < 1265587633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just have to be (something which includes b)->b < 1265587644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: prettifies a dependently-typed lambda calculus AST < 1265587658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is already confused < 1265587726 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: just go along with him < 1265587730 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*her < 1265587769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's a subtype of b->b isn't it < 1265587828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hïrm < 1265587860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right < 1265587864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty (church 0) < 1265587864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λα : (α : ★) → (γ : (β : α) → α) → (δ : α) → α. (λβ : (ζ : (ε : δ) → δ) → (η : δ) → δ. (λγ : (θ : ε) → ε. γ))) < 1265588111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something's broken... < 1265588302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty (church 50) < 1265588302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λα : (α : ★) → (γ : (β : α) → α) → (δ : α) → α. (λβ : (ζ : (ε : δ) → δ) → (η : δ) → δ. (λγ : (θ : ε) → ε. (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β (β γ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) < 1265588481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty trueL < 1265588481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λα : (α : ★) → (β : α) → (γ : α) → α. (λβ : (δ : γ) → (ε : γ) → γ. (λγ : (ζ : δ) → δ. β))) < 1265588481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> System.IO.UTF8.putStrLn $ pretty falseL < 1265588481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(λα : (α : ★) → (β : α) → (γ : α) → α. (λβ : (δ : γ) → (ε : γ) → γ. (λγ : (ζ : δ) → δ. γ))) < 1265588521 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265588545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As an alternative to the encoding using Church pairs, a list can be encoded by identifying it with its right fold function." < 1265588546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me likey. < 1265588560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you define foldl with foldr? < 1265588657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265588671 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise but why would you... < 1265588695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: if a list is defined as its foldr... < 1265588701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what oerjan said < 1265588710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defining things as their natural functions is a nice thing < 1265588720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Maybe a is b -> (a -> b) -> b < 1265588728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either a b is (a -> c) -> (b -> c) -> c < 1265588733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a,b) is (a -> b -> c) -> c < 1265588734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1265588740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of those anamorphism or catamorphism things < 1265588743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what's the definition btw? < 1265588751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cannot remember which is which < 1265588762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm lessee < 1265588786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foldl' f b0 as = foldr (\a k b -> k (f b a)) id as b0 < 1265588787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1265588805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the ' ? < 1265588811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what the LtU person called it < 1265588813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not to clash < 1265588815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for strictness afaik < 1265588818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265588819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they failed :P < 1265588821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at not clashing) < 1265588827 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265588859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm beginning to realise why nobody uses the dependently-typed lambda calculus as a core language < 1265588864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's frickin' verbose and opaque!) < 1265588881 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1265588889 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant encode data types by the folds < 1265588900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can represent a list as its foldr < 1265588908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt' work < 1265588911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it does < 1265588922 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can. it's how it's done in System F iirc < 1265588928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map, foldl, head, tail, ... can all be implemented with juts foldr < 1265588930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just < 1265588943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding#Higher-order_function < 1265588990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also is it just me or does prolog solve the expression problem? < 1265588991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1265589010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog has no static types. < 1265589020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without which, it is much easier < 1265589024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiuc < 1265589050 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's any point me linking to a research problem that proves what I am saying if you already know that I am wrong < 1265589083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, do link < 1265589094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm fairly sure oerjan and wikipedia, and facts back me up on this < 1265589133 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.32.4355 < 1265589165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that this foldr encoding of lists applies to when lists have all elements the same type, like in haskell < 1265589170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm just talking about lists < 1265589184 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I knew it was pointless < 1265589190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1265589200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think you understand what i'm saying < 1265589201 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Nat : * where < 1265589202 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Z : Nat < 1265589205 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S : Nat -> Nat < 1265589208 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data List : * where < 1265589210 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : nil : List < 1265589217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cons : a -> List -> List < 1265589221 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing < 1265589243 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows how to bug alise... hehehe < 1265589252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1265589271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so, are you saying that map isn't implementable with just foldr? what about foldl? head? tail? < 1265589281 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by insisting that C# solves the Expression Problem < 1265589289 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do whatever the fuck you want in haskell or untyped lambda calculus or wikipedia < 1265589297 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that have to do with it < 1265589341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: >_< < 1265589351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes close < 1265589353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because you are being opaque about what you are actually trying to state to me < 1265589367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: can you add new methods and have them work on existing members of a type hierarchy? < 1265589380 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, they're called extension methods < 1265589387 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's more a case of you already have your mind made up < 1265589392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just glorified functions, but okay < 1265589398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't really count :P < 1265589407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I haven't and I'm trying to get the information out of you, dammit < 1265589422 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are < 1265589422 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you seemed to read an entire research paper in the amount of time it takes to read its title < 1265589433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: um so whether you can define a data type using a foldr might depend on your type system. what does that have to do with what we are saying? < 1265589442 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but does the semantic difference of what is and isn't a member of a type matter? < 1265589443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i read the abstract < 1265589449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually that summarises what the paper concludes. < 1265589455 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than the verbosity < 1265589459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: yes < 1265589469 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: explain < 1265589476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: access to private fields < 1265589482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1265589504 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's equally clear that in the System F type system people _have_ defined list types as their corresponding fold types < 1265589513 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thread of discussion has got murky and clouded with assumptions so lets clear it and we can start again < 1265589540 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that isn't required < 1265589549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well nothing is required < 1265589557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the expression problem doesn't reduce a language's power < 1265589561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reduces its expressivity < 1265589585 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why the idiot decided to refer to it as being solved, when it really isn't < 1265589599 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd argue prototype systems come closest to solving it < 1265589601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What idiot? < 1265589609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The author of the .txt file? < 1265589610 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Wadler < 1265589613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1265589616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just called Wadler an idiot. < 1265589650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firstly, Wadler is a great computer scientist who came up with using monads in programming and many aspects of Haskell's design. < 1265589651 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was an idiot when he decided to refer to it as being solved < 1265589654 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or solvable < 1265589660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Secondly, he didn't. He presented *one solution*. < 1265589671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It allowed you to add both rows and columns. < 1265589673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a solution of the problem. < 1265589681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may not be the best or even a good solution, but it is a solution. < 1265589700 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case I contend that C# has solved it < 1265589725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1265589726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Private fields. < 1265589773 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I contend that those do not matter < 1265589808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing matters. < 1265589814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a problem of convenience and expressivity, not power. < 1265589823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So either obey all the rules or obey none. < 1265589834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it wasn't about private fields, *every* OOP language would solve it. < 1265589844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In an awful, kludgey way, of course.) < 1265589861 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to "add new cases to the datatype and new functions over the datatype" < 1265589864 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Summary: In lambda caculus you can define data types (including higher order ones like the syntax of lambda caclculus itsself using the Scott encoding, in Haskell you can't use this because it doesn't typecheck but data types are isomorphic to the folds (but the algorithmic complexity of functions you define on the fold version is limited), in dependently typed calculus you can't use the fold encoding because you can't do induction on these types. < 1265589868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Anyway, if you add an extension method to a subclass, do you have to add it to all superclasses too? < 1265589883 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Summray: In untyped lambda caculus**** < 1265589885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you add an extension method to a superclass, do you have to make separate definitions for each subclass? If not, then it is not solved. < 1265589888 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Actually, that I'm not sure about, and would be fatal to the Expression Problem < 1265589892 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oerjan ^ < 1265589894 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but access to private members is not fatal < 1265589930 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly enough, prototype systems take it one step further < 1265589955 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just spent about half an hour to an hour shoveling snow < 1265589971 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :par for the course < 1265589982 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRAR UPPER BODY STRENGTH < 1265589986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HULK SMASH SNOW < 1265590018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: kay :P < 1265590023 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are the snow shovelar! < 1265590031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But yes, I just realised that's why it doesn't solve it. < 1265590033 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prototype systems let you define new functions over individual objects < 1265590040 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265590042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: In a real-life table of numbers, < 1265590044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd shover your snow ;o < 1265590048 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typed that all out and you're not even going to read it? < 1265590051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just add a column, put one number in, and pretend all the rest are that number < 1265590057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to fill in each separately, considering each row < 1265590079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I read it < 1265590090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why do you assume I did not? < 1265590096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, true < 1265590112 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION motions quietly in the direction of Python < 1265590113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: admittedly, normal OOP systems fail at this with rows too by inheriting methods; but that's less bad, since it's just one row being affected < 1265590121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than a nuclear holocaust of oppression as in adding a column < 1265590156 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: why does inheriting methods screw it up? < 1265590165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it doesn't < 1265590176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the column fuckup you enter one and it magics into the other rows < 1265590181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with method inheritance, there's no entering+copying < 1265590184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just regular inheritance < 1265590185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265590210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, language implementations with a solution of the expression problem are godly in their ease-of-organisation. < 1265590225 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, here's a fun one < 1265590237 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang < 1265590241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adding a new construct? You can do it in one module: add a row to the AST type, implement all the columns (like "compile", "prettyprint"), add it to the parser, and you're done. < 1265590244 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan? < 1265590247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: I know it doesn't solve it. I'm asking you to describe why ont) < 1265590247 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265590248 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*not < 1265590258 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise because you didn't even argue < 1265590260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It becomes organised by feature, not by phase. < 1265590269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because you're probably right :P < 1265590278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Erlang isn't strongly-typed; mu < 1265590290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well. you can't add pattern-matching cases to a function in erlang, too < 1265590301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even if you arbitrarily said {foo,2} is your new row, you can't fill in the columns < 1265590307 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it fails pretty hard < 1265590314 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny for a functional language though < 1265590324 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding new types is the easy bit < 1265590333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, since it's not statically typed you can think of it as being able to add rows < 1265590338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that you don't have to declare the rows you add :) < 1265590339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well as i said it means it doesn't work in all type systems. perhaps it's a general problem for all dependent ones, i don't know. < 1265590347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1265590348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1265590348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265590350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can add columns < 1265590352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but definitely not rows < 1265590353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265590355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like most functional languages < 1265590376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the expression problem only really makes sense with static typing < 1265590406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i was expecting you to be more "coool" at my thing about language implementation organisation :( < 1265590425 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1265590433 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1265590433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265590437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise* < 1265590442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, i was just about to < 1265590472 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you considering designing a language which has a very easy solution to the expression problem? < 1265590479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1265590504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'm considering including my nice syntax for my solution in my language < 1265590508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and making _all_ types tables < 1265590517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although of course you have to export the table part to get it extensible by others etc) < 1265590534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all ADTs that is < 1265590546 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if the ability to subclass could be considered a requirement < 1265590558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just extend the type < 1265590559 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265590570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtyping in OOP extends the parent type, because you can use the subclasses as their parents < 1265590571 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have type extensions of some sort < 1265590576 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265590578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265590579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's adding rows < 1265590582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265590586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding row = extending type + filling in columns < 1265590595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding column = making function + filling in rows < 1265590600 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with covariance or contravariance? < 1265590609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COMONADS AND CONTRAMONADS < 1265590617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't see why? < 1265590624 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, I mean which < 1265590629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er I was thinking of the wrong meaning of covariance :D < 1265590641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, all the extensions are considered equal < 1265590649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtyping in OOP just happens to do this, it isn't the optimal way < 1265590656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the optimal way is simply adding constructors to an existing data type < 1265590657 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtyping in OOP is covariant < 1265590661 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(usually) < 1265590670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it doesn't matter for the expression problem < 1265590676 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it does < 1265590678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtyping is a more general operation than what you need for the expression problem < 1265590685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the expression problem, all are = < 1265590707 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does one define as "adding new cases to the datatype"? < 1265590737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Foo a = Abc Int a < 1265590741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Foo a = Abc Int a | Bar a a < 1265590744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Foo a = Abc Int a | Bar a a | Quux Int String < 1265590772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION realises something < 1265590783 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Why doesn't simple composition not qualify? < 1265590786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language probably has almost as many features that almost all other languages don't have, as common features < 1265590788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*does < 1265590795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it does i think? < 1265590814 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you just said that extension was necessary < 1265590822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it has to extend the original type < 1265590823 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless we were talking about different definitions of extension < 1265590828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you fill in the columns < 1265590830 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people in haskell are mean < 1265590832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't change the type of the columns < 1265590834 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell < 1265590835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an overloaded word I think < 1265590839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types, mixfix operators, extensible syntax, partiality as an effect, heavy unicode usage, < 1265590847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solution to the expression problem, < 1265590848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265590865 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what do you mean "fill in the columns"? < 1265590877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you add a new row < 1265590884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to implement all the functions (columns) < 1265590885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that row < 1265590900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, think of a real table of numbers < 1265590909 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's a requirement < 1265590909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you add a row, you have to fill in the values for its columns < 1265590915 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since many functions can't be implemented < 1265590919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you add a column, you have to fill in the values for its rows < 1265590923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: all the functions previously added < 1265590924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the columns < 1265590932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is beginning to suspect you don't understand the problem... < 1265590934 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265590940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, bye. < 1265590941 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265590943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1265590947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you miss anything? < 1265590949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I do understand it < 1265590950 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265590954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1265590959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have the link to my explanation? < 1265590961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll show what I mean < 1265590964 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265590965 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't < 1265590974 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265590994 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAICT, we're currently arguing over the specification of the problem < 1265590997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need the explanation though :P < 1265591002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could search the logs I guess < 1265591014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, I'm 99.9% sure I've described the problem correctly < 1265591028 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'll wait on your explanation before saying more < 1265591035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to check < 1265591039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have read http://pastie.org/812459.txt?key=cadkhg4ho0qiceepz1a7w right? < 1265591046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be good to read it again :P < 1265591052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wrote it) < 1265591100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slight hinting + greyscale antialiasing makes linux typography okay, yay. < 1265591149 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, I agree < 1265591159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the antialiasing thing? < 1265591165 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, your explanation < 1265591168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah :P < 1265591175 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I also see our disagreement < 1265591188 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're considering it as an isolated case; I'm considering every function and type as a whole < 1265591226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265591230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add more jargon to that < 1265591233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too vague < 1265591234 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. there is an comparison function which is defined for numbers, but not for lists < 1265591250 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas there is a function to get the first element of a list that is not defined for numbers < 1265591285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a table is a type, by the way < 1265591290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rows = members of that type < 1265591293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :columns = functions on that type < 1265591295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265591300 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, that's what I was missing < 1265591303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rows are data, columns are functions < 1265591304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tables are types < 1265591394 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now things make more sense :) < 1265591436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the "some functions aren't implementable" thing was confusing me < 1265591462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, note that not every function on a type needs to be a column; if it doesn't access the data directly and is just a composition of columns and other non-column functions, it doesn't change definition depending on the row < 1265591474 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey alise, will you be on next week? < 1265591481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wend < 1265591485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: End, yes; why? < 1265591495 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well just wondering like if you aren't < 1265591499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then ? < 1265591508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: this adds slight awkwardness to the typical functional style because you have to declare column functions specifically; I'm considering inferring it < 1265591520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pattern match = Damn nigga, you sum columnic function) < 1265591535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Then what? You mean if they find out and imprison me in a fortress for 100 years? < 1265591572 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so you're not worried < 1265591621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not particularly. They know I can program and like being on the computer (which I wave away with "talking on IM? yeah, yeah, that. no, not Facebook") but I don't think they know I have any sort of web prescense, so them googling for me is unlikely < 1265591640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they don't do that, how will they find out? The incriminating thoughts have been in my head since the first few days and they don't seem to have read them yet. < 1265591674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm not on this week or next week, well... what can you do? Nothing, really. < 1265591682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rest assured I won't be personally giving up, so... < 1265591752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'll just assume your Finnish internet connection isn't set up :P < 1265591787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Internet connection is the only thing going for Finland over Sweden and Norway. < 1265591797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm adamant about not working for the military, so it's out :P < 1265591812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even though by 18 I'll be a senior professor of awesome at MIT.) < 1265591841 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you weren't going to the USA? :P < 1265591914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the excellent CS universities are in America. I could, at least, stand Massachusetts. :-P < 1265591928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also note that I may have been joking a wee bit, what with the senior professor of awesome thing. < 1265591936 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1265591952 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly this is the difference between male and female ehird < 1265591978 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the male one never joked < 1265591979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; female alise would never be promoted to Senior Professor of Awesome because of SEXISM < 1265591996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, hey, who says I'm female! Just because I'm referring to myself with female pronouns! < 1265592010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sexism to mandate that only one sex can use one set of pronouns. < 1265592020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the (s)h/it, man < 1265592337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did classic Clearlooks become modern Clearlooks? < 1265592340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Old Clearlooks is far prettier. < 1265592820 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: they'll have to create that professor for you, i think < 1265592887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Professor. Ingredients: 50 bananas/day. 25 cups of coffee/day. 1 Ph.D. Mix until of a frazzled and messy consistency. Cook for 30 minutes at 30 Celsius. < 1265592915 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, if a physicist, at 300 K < 1265592995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes physicists are cold, horrible people < 1265592997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that what you meant? < 1265593009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.15 degrees make all the difference < 1265593022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, so the difference between a physicist and a mathematician is ~pi < 1265593027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense. < 1265593040 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265593111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles < 1265593130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat. < 1265593147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to freeze the physicists < 1265593190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1265593207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah 26.85 degrees is freeeeeeeezing < 1265593213 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I'll never get rid of their energy entirely, but I'll get rid of what I can < 1265593227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppropy < 1265593250 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I shall design a mysterious and inexplicable device with their zero-point energy < 1265593348 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... in what language should I write my text visualizer? < 1265593507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell. < 1265593518 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cobol < 1265593519 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"text visualizer"? < 1265593520 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Already had your reply written down < 1265593526 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already have one of those < 1265593531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole program essentially boils down to "vis s = map tile s", after all. < 1265593543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, with FRP, you could write literally that. < 1265593546 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to start, yeah < 1265593564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay then, "vis tiles s = map (tile tiles) s". < 1265593610 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I get it :P < 1265593619 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm strongly considering Haskell < 1265593620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not "to start with", it's pretty close to all you need. < 1265593629 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I intend to add more features < 1265593635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, but the actual tiling part. < 1265593637 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screw Unix < 1265593649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: If you do, please do consider using an FRP toolkit. < 1265593657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to worry about updating the rendering on its changing or anything. < 1265593662 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, that seems like a good idea :) < 1265593663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(FRP is basically event-based programming, but functional) < 1265593690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Unfortunately, most FRP implementations suck. :-) < 1265593708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if GuiTV lets you do arbitrary graphics, but look at http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/TV for the sort of thing that would help updating < 1265593738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TV is conal's plaything, and conal is one of the main FRP dudes; he was writing papers about it from the start) < 1265593756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: So what kind of features are you considering? < 1265593760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's something that would be cool: < 1265593787 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: changing tile images based on surroundings, possibly editing < 1265593793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could tell it to run the command "nethack", with a definition file that says the area of the screen (coords of the map) is to use tileset foo, and the rest is to use tileset (a simple bitmap font). < 1265593802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd interpret the vt100 codes and send your keypresses, and voila! < 1265593806 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that was on the 'lofty goal' bit < 1265593809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graphical nethack in a few lines and some drawing! < 1265593814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vt100 codes are very simple, so < 1265593818 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265593823 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was thinking that /exact/ thing, actually < 1265593823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could even use termcap/whatever to make them send ones easier for you < 1265593833 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I'd actually use it for nethack < 1265593850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing apl :P < 1265593856 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265593866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given a program that compiles ascii characters to apl chars < 1265593879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could arrange the apl chars to the alphabet etc on your keyboard to your liking like the old apl keyboards, and just type away < 1265593907 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like APL < 1265593911 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where should I start with actually learning Haskell Syntax? < 1265593924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You should learn Haskell in one go. :-) < 1265593926 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, f x y z is what you'd normall write like f(x,y,z) < 1265593931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, but where < 1265593934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://learnyouahaskell.com/ is an excellent starting point. < 1265593934 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that its ACTUALLY (((f x) y) z) < 1265593945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you for telling me what currying is < 1265593949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's practical, simple to understand and amusing. < 1265593956 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the elephant < 1265593957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: coppro is rather beyond that stage < 1265593962 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro thank you for learning the first thing about haskell syntax < 1265593982 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also happen to sort-of understand monads < 1265593986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: learn you a haskell doesn't actually explain monads yet, but surely you've picked up what a monad is by now? < 1265593988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1265593995 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ESP too :P < 1265594000 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I wrote has nothing to do with monads < 1265594006 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that < 1265594008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the reverse state monad < 1265594013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lukepalmer.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/mindfuck-the-reverse-state-monad/ < 1265594016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it passes state backwards in time) < 1265594047 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... LYAH says it's aimed at someone who hasn't done functional programming < 1265594056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter < 1265594059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works for someone who has too < 1265594060 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265594071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just might be a little easy at first :P < 1265594079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember that style is important in haskell, though < 1265594089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to write bad haskell code, and it often looks like good code in other languages. < 1265594095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because they're less expressive) < 1265594100 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if coppro doesn't like reading things he already knows he should just learn Haskell from the Report < 1265594102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so paying attention to what it does is probably a good idea < 1265594122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think A Gentle Introduction is harder to read than the Report :-) < 1265594125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the highest signal ratio you will get is from the report < 1265594135 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it is but he flipped out when I mentioned currying < 1265594138 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is right though; style is everything < 1265594148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: he didn't < 1265594156 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he probably wont be able to handle LYAH < 1265594159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was just pointing out, sardonically, that he was rather beyond that stage < 1265594165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chill :P < 1265594198 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Haskell was made by some really smart guys (with PhDs)" <-- excellent. An important feature to any language. < 1265594208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I don't have a Ph.D. < 1265594215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265594255 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just steal ideas from PhDs then, that's what I do < 1265594259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ditto < 1265594262 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265594272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later, I'll pay them to make a proof of soundness for me to steal. < 1265594275 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like TeX < 1265594287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1265594292 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX is pure genius. And it was made by a guy with a Ph.D. Coincedence? < 1265594305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehh, TeX has flaws :P < 1265594312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how TeX is pure genius? < 1265594320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's good though, just not "pure genius" < 1265594322 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective-C. /me yawns. < 1265594325 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was pretty much just a good tool that needed to be made < 1265594328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you do realise you can get a Ph.D. in theology, right? :D < 1265594442 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1265594480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the top two things missing from haskell: < 1265594485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Dependent types < 1265594491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. A powerful (ML-style) module system < 1265594510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 would in fact remove the need for many other features (like foralls and typeclasses) and even go a long way to solving 2 :P < 1265594520 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doit < 1265594529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm no dolt! < 1265594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Do_It.txt) < 1265594543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, err, what < 1265594568 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go fix Haskell :P < 1265594586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing that! Sort of. < 1265594593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By making an entirely new language with lots of things from Haskell. < 1265594614 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick, someone explain why negative numbers must be in parens < 1265594641 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell needs typeclasses? < 1265594654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: because f -3 is f - 3 < 1265594663 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265594664 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've pondered emulating typeclasses in Agda and decided that Agda without typeclasses would be superior to Agda with typeclasses. < 1265594668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's haskell's first dirty little secret :) < 1265594674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: haskell doesn't "need" them < 1265594688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, DoIt < 1265594688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicit arguments + records/modules > typeclasses < 1265594698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former almost always comes with dependent types. < 1265594715 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: knowing nothing, I'm going to guess that operators are just identifiers and arithmetic is a curried expression template? < 1265594716 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Monad m = Monad {return :: forall a. a -> m a; . . .} < 1265594726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: (symbols) is an infix operator < 1265594728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(+) :: ... < 1265594736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw, I'm wrong :( < 1265594743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arithmetic is just a function :P < 1265594751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: yes, but you have to specify that every time :) < 1265594755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, that + implicit arguments = tada < 1265594758 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if/then/else is more than just a function :( < 1265594760 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but I was thinking it would be smalltalkish < 1265594763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: not in agda! < 1265594765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: howso < 1265594768 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((1 +) 2) < 1265594777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1 +) works, so does (+ 2) < 1265594782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can think of (1 + 2) like that if you want. < 1265594782 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, you can do that in Haskell < 1265594799 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll read a bit more before adding additional comment < 1265594805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: there's also "infix[lr] symbols N" which defines associativity and precedence < 1265594864 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265594886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda does operators far better < 1265594896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if_then_else_ is how you define the conditional operator (syntax in haskell) < 1265594901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+_ is addition, etc < 1265594939 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know, I read that bit of Agda < 1265594950 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages that modify their own syntax always scare me though < 1265594988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't modifying syntax < 1265594991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1265595015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could view it as agda parsing to a very linear form at first < 1265595020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the rest being semantics, not syntax < 1265595030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it isn't full syntax modification < 1265595057 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still makes me squeamish < 1265595080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find syntax modification slightly creepy but I just see mixfix as a generalisation of prefix, infix and postfix operators < 1265595090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, you can emulate if a then b else c with if a then (b else c) < 1265595105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only "big" change is allowing non-symbols in operator names, which means you can't know for sure what's an operator at parse-time < 1265595119 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265595170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should make a language where syntax modification is critical to use, or something < 1265595175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No :P < 1265595189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I might have to be up at 8, but probably not. Probably more like 9-10. < 1265595193 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called Perl < 1265595198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably think about bed sometime. < 1265595203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1265595205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm stupid, so I won't :D < 1265595206 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you Friday < 1265595222 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh. LYAH's code samples have invisible _ < 1265595256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc < 1265595259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like this language < 1265595261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: invisible? < 1265595269 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can't see them < 1265595273 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason < 1265595278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get some glasses < 1265595288 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They look like spaces < 1265595298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :line height or sth probably < 1265595378 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/sMKlv.png < 1265595503 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's supposed to be underscores there? < 1265595521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265595521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265595523 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the wiggler diagram of the list < 1265595531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Underscore means "ignore this argument".) < 1265595548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: link? < 1265595551 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing <*> _ = Nothing < 1265595558 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://learnyouahaskell.com/listmonster.png < 1265595565 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not space, like it appears in the screenshot < 1265595576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ah yes < 1265595578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's new since I read it < 1265595610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A list is a curious monster. < 1265595624 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is == [] bad? < 1265595649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: requires the content type to be comparable with == < 1265595649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's "null xs" < 1265595654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that < 1265595660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Eq a) => Eq [a] < 1265595670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't compare two lists of incomparable elements, so you can't do == [] on them < 1265595676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :null, otoh, uses pattern matching, and so is fine < 1265595698 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1] == [] works fine for me < 1265595708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because you can compare numbers. < 1265595715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but try [sin] == [] ... < 1265595724 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265595858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mapping and filtering is the bread and butter of every functional programmer's toolbox. Uh." --LYAH < 1265595888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that "Uh." in the actual quote? < 1265595894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265595899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265595908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you're confused, whoosh) < 1265595911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, B0NUS' writing. < 1265595924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*BONUS < 1265595926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His name is BONUS. < 1265595931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the better language tutorials I've read in general. < 1265595934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind his writing, take a look at his twitter < 1265595935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://twitter.com/bonus500 < 1265595953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well i read that as a possible sarcasm tag... < 1265595963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "bread and butter" "tool box" < 1265595986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok i did notice that too < 1265595999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That is one of the more amusing Twitters. < 1265596010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He emits twats on a daily occasion. < 1265596018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tee hee hee, twat. Ahem. < 1265596052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :twit is destined to become a strong verb < 1265596073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twit, twit your twat's twat. < 1265596079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRANSLATION < 1265596093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idiot, post (your vagina's posting to Twitter) to Twitter. < 1265596148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll call 't wit < 1265596170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will sleep soon, I will sleep soon, I will sleep argh < 1265596193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ops here? we should ban alise for hïrs own good < 1265596217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrs own good? What sort of grammar is that? < 1265596225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm only going to be affecting my performance in Hell. < 1265596243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might need to wake up at 8am, it's 2:30. but more likely 9 or 10 < 1265596244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might still want to show up on time... < 1265596273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If Elliot is anything like I, mobility and consciousness are detached. < 1265596277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just trying to make neutral pronouns by merging... < 1265596279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Elliott < 1265596282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: only partly. :P < 1265596288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I presume that he merely needs mobility, and doesn't *desire* consciousness. < 1265596289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Show up on time? They come for you. < 1265596296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would just have to do without much sleep. < 1265596297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1265596309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, I can't be mobile without consciousness < 1265596320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find my mind sparks a lot while I'm sitting barely able to move my hands on the keyboard, though < 1265596326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sounds like mobility isn't needed, either. < 1265596338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am expected to walk around and go to classes when I get there... < 1265596348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas. < 1265596443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if this chocolate will make me sleepy. < 1265596564 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, they have classes there? < 1265596581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It is, nominally, a school. < 1265596591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would hardly be sane if I wasn't pumped with the idiotic national curriculum, would I? < 1265596597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Actually, it's a "hospital" containing a school. < 1265596607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, a branch of a metaschool with no physical location. < 1265596616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(schools various newcastle hospitals.) < 1265596623 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the most part, the idiotic national curriculum is a good thing. < 1265596631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Hell no. < 1265596633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Double hell no. < 1265596639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadruple hell no. < 1265596647 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1265596662 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me again how this is a bad thing? You're forced to stay nights, I think? I guess that makes it bad < 1265596665 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265596684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The national curriculum of almost all - (all?) - countries actively inhibits learning for the intelligent. < 1265596692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, I agree < 1265596710 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, the majority of people are not 'the intelligent' < 1265596720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: He was homeschooled. They believe he is in some manner or another mentally deficient. They are threatening to institutionalise him. < 1265596728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Homeschooled, I object to that word. < 1265596746 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 'Tis the word, though. < 1265596748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was not in a "school" at "home" nor was I taught by my parents as the word evokes. < 1265596755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265596763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did, however, learn a crapload more than I ever learned beforehand and stopped hating life. < 1265596777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, then, your education more consisted of "Learn." < 1265596783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing about the public school system is that it inhibits teaching kids stuff like magic and religion. < 1265596790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Why it's bad: one, it is not voluntary, although it pretends to be, for I am under grave threat of institutionalisation; two, I should not be drinking the "nutritional supplement" I am; three, blah blah blah < 1265596815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in a gifted program, which is all that kept me sane. Since I hit high school it's not as necessary for a number of reasons, though I'm still in the program < 1265596819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well, that is true. I don't think parents should teach their children; on average, people are pretty dumb, including parents. < 1265596830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'd like to comment that I managed to get through "normal" education just fine. < 1265596842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Granted*, I spent most of that time learning things for myself... < 1265596847 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I somehow survived public schools. < 1265596852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the fact that I was also bullied intensely for almost my entire school career did not help. < 1265596853 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hum, alise = ehird? < 1265596855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes. < 1265596859 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1265596865 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He got a sex change. < 1265596872 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, you don't whois everyone who joins the channel? < 1265596876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh. That hinders greatly. < 1265596878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can use a feminine name and pronouns while still identifying as male if I want to! < 1265596888 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I whoised alise after I suspected e was ehird. < 1265596894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't have ehird or anything in my whois :P < 1265596895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such was my life in elementary school. < 1265596899 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not recognize eir IP address. < 1265596923 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it says "identified as ehird" < 1265596928 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no it doesn't < 1265596932 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e must have dropped that < 1265596932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose I seriously must bed myself soon; something like 5:20 hours of sleep if I sleep now and have to wake at 8. < 1265596936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 or 10, maybe, probably. < 1265596943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still. Perhaps 8. < 1265596949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, very soon. Very very soon. < 1265596949 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so, you're made to stay nights at whatever this place is for the sole purpose of forcing you to drink whatever this thingy is? < 1265596951 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was bullied a lot before I switched into this program < 1265596958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, anyone have the link to the pastie? < 1265596964 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since then, I've learned that bullies are idiots < 1265596967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. I'll summarise. < 1265596973 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, that's simply inefficient. Write the papers. < 1265596991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I am mainly there because they believe I could not function in normal society because I am a recluse; they believe I am on the autistic spectrum, leaning to Asperger's, and probably have OCD. < 1265597004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are, however, doing nothing to "fix" these things even if you accept them as diagnoses. < 1265597009 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, to use a less oddly ambiguous phrase, inform the media. < 1265597018 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"His only crime was being born delicious!" < 1265597028 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, that's more... understandable. < 1265597033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead, based on the junk science of BMI and the fact that I'm quite below-average weight, just as my father was, < 1265597040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why they're doing the drink thing. < 1265597048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's intended for people with disease-related malnutrition, so... yeah. < 1265597053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eat perfectly fine. < 1265597058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're crazy. < 1265597058 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought everyone knew that BMI was little more than a guideline... < 1265597065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not even that! < 1265597069 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bad one at that < 1265597072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was invented by a mathematician in the 1800s and was fudged to fit the data! < 1265597076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A poor one, though. < 1265597084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the 1800s people barely exercised! Body mass was totally different! < 1265597085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaaaaaaaargh < 1265597094 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you seen a doctor about whether you're underweight or not? < 1265597100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'd write to the papers but if it gets to the courts there's a chance I'll be sectioned there and then. < 1265597101 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it's all "doctors" < 1265597115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I am "underweight" as in below average weight. < 1265597123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So was my dad at the same age until quite later on in his life. He ate fine too. < 1265597137 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you seen a GP about whether you're underweight or not? < 1265597151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but undoubtedly they had. < 1265597157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But nutrition science is bullshit. < 1265597166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Pretty hard to when he's held there on weekdays. < 1265597169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Just ask Ilari, if you have a few hours. Fudged data for political reasons, outright ignored conclusions, ...) < 1265597188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, since the media carries a risk of court which carries a risk of sectioning, the more foolproof option, moving country, is the one currently being persued. < 1265597189 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean that if the courts find out that you wrote to the papers, they could use that as a reason for... whatever sectioning is? < 1265597196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sectioning = institutionalisation. < 1265597199 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1265597207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The court could notice the case, examine it, and conclude I should be sectioned. < 1265597210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*courts < 1265597218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can actually do that? < 1265597227 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without being referred to? < 1265597229 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how long could it take to prepare? Shouldn't you have been doing that this weekend? < 1265597233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if the courts don't notice or do anything with the case, why contact the media? < 1265597238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would it accomplish? < 1265597240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: What, moving? < 1265597242 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265597244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: He needs a passport. < 1265597255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have the forms, I just didn't get round to getting my picture for the passport this weekend, oops. < 1265597258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next weekend we'll do it. < 1265597260 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe you should go see a GP. < 1265597262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as planning, we don't need to do much. < 1265597265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Why? < 1265597280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Issues with employment or anything? < 1265597286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To get a sympathetic viewpoint or something. < 1265597311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Why? The mainstream opinion on stuff like this is bullshit that doesn't even consider family history, your frame or anything. < 1265597320 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next weekend, shall I remind you to get your picture? < 1265597322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BMI has not been widely discredited, even though doing so could be done by an infant. < 1265597327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That would be good. :P < 1265597381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Believe it or not, this is less of a fucked up situation than some other things I've heard... There's been a few parents in the UK who were termed "unfit" to be parents for the sole purpose of meeting adoption quotas. < 1265597384 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go see a GP because I'm curious whether the GP you see will be a real person or not? < 1265597387 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to Google Calendar < 1265597396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "Real person"? < 1265597400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am confused by your terminology. < 1265597413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sort of person who would look at overwhelming evidence and not disagree with it. < 1265597431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1265597458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd much rather not waste any time and enact the plan ASAP; it's a soul-sucking place and I can't take much more. < 1265597475 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1265597486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, uhh, I'm afraid my expectations of the health service are basically 0 after this. < 1265597505 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much time do you spend in this place? < 1265597509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monday to Friday. < 1265597533 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes stuff in Google Calendar that looks like vacation planning < 1265597534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a place you go to in the week so much as home is a place you go to on the weekends. < 1265597540 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1265597591 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, the world is full of injustice and strangeness. Especially if you have Asperger's. < 1265597610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: The UK's handling of it is full-on retarded. < 1265597629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I don't really believe Asperger's is a real mental condition in any form, especially in its modern, over-vagueised form. < 1265597639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a silly synonym for "intelligent nerd". < 1265597666 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I concluded at some point that if three things are mutually correlated, you can call them one thing. < 1265597676 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I think the definition of a syndrome is a set of traits that tend to occur together. < 1265597679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. But it's certainly not a mental illness. < 1265597693 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it causes problems. < 1265597698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even "worse" than allism (the opposite of autism; http://www.fysh.org/~zefram/allism/allism_intro.txt), I'd say it's better. < 1265597699 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a mental difference :D < 1265597709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Empathy is spooky emotion at a distance. :-) < 1265597710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It is, at most, a very mild form of disability. < 1265597724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mild) autism is certainly a more rational state than allism < 1265597744 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the past couple of days, I've felt significantly, perhaps severely, handicapped by Asperger's. < 1265597753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1265597788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Social interaction is very, very hard... < 1265597799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only allistic social interaction. < 1265597805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With most basic reactions basically learned by rote. < 1265597806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1265597811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't be a disability if most people were autistic. < 1265597816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autistic social interaction is the most trivial thing in the world. < 1265597817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it isn't a disability. < 1265597826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you had a society full of retards, on the other hand... < 1265597829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wouldn't work. < 1265597841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I may be biased by the fact that psychological conditions are defined by consensus among psychologists, not evidence. < 1265597848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which makes me go rawr and :(. < 1265597885 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard (ahem) that Asperger's causes akrasia to a degree much higher than that suffered by other people. < 1265597894 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we lived in a society where most people had wings and could fly, would not having wings be considered a disability? < 1265597899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1265597903 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, imperfect analogy < 1265597906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't be vague, uorygl, and expect everyone else to know exactly what you mean. < 1265597911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if it's based on personal experience. < 1265597912 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where "akrasia" is stuff like addiction, procrastination, and generally acting against one's better judgement. < 1265597932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Alas. < 1265597933 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs Sgeo. < 1265597938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call an autistic person's obsession dedication or specialisation, not addiction. < 1265597950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is procrastination more prevalent in autistics? Prove it. < 1265597957 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wings confer benefits even in a world where only one person has wings. < 1265597968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: but autism/allism aren't utilities < 1265597973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're different configurations < 1265597976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "Addiction" is, indeed, the wrong term... < 1265597994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is being a rabbit, not a snake, a disability? < 1265598010 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Addiction is something I don't really suffer from. < 1265598025 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad thinks I'm addicted to the computer < 1265598031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm addicted to the computers and the internet. Which just makes my weekdays stay in Hell all the more pleasant. < 1265598050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computers and the internet? Yeah, we have those. The computers are for schoolwork only and the internet censored. < 1265598064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The closest I get to programming is on paper. < 1265598069 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Procrastination, I do. I've only been able to complete three classes this year. < 1265598080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I've done some of my best golfing on paper. < 1265598083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming that I can finish the one class I have this semester. I probably can. < 1265598089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You can't evaluate paper. < 1265598093 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh heh, "addicted to the computer". < 1265598096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't do exploratory programming on paper. < 1265598103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, *Brainfuck* golfing. < 1265598103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Why the hehs? < 1265598123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is exceptionally easy to evaluate, even with just a piece of paper and a pencil. < 1265598129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I do have to wonder if they'd allow a laptop without an internet connection, but it'd have to be a pretty damn cheap laptop to make that worthwhile. < 1265598130 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The computer" is not an activity; saying "addicted to the computer" is like saying "addicted to the exterior of one's house". < 1265598136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Oh I agree. < 1265598144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried to explain to people that the computer is composite, not atomic. < 1265598162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can people *not* understand that? < 1265598163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the fact is that I don't really like to do X much, where X is most things that are not contained within the computer. < 1265598178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Because they see you sitting in front of a screen typing and mousing in much the same way as you ever do. < 1265598179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, really. My computer gets used for a hell of a lot of things... < 1265598182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, it's one activity. < 1265598185 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once helped someone by showing them the recent files in the File menu in Word < 1265598188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, I know they don't see *you* mousing.) < 1265598194 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read books, I read magazines, I read comics, I write programs, I chat... < 1265598197 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She proceeded to refer someone who was having programming troubles to me < 1265598198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I play video games... < 1265598201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mmm, emulator) < 1265598232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forgot pornography < 1265598233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Watch movies, watch TV, listen to music... < 1265598240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heheh. < 1265598246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Computer = one activity. You're good at programming = fix my computer. < 1265598264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like the magic "Do everything" machine! < 1265598270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're family/friend = I don't understand how it works, but I know how to use a keyboard and a mouse, so it's easy. < 1265598283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compare with painting: Most people don't know how to paint a picture of any real sort of caliber. < 1265598291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can easily tell a "real" painting, so they don't do that. < 1265598300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With computers, everything looks alike. To inexperienced users, that is. < 1265598348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's amazing how few people are even competent with computers, even today. < 1265598396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't even mean "have a concept of how it works", but even just "learn the basic working concepts of the UI or UIs they commonly use, so that they can readily figure things out." < 1265598399 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I love it. < 1265598400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't wait until we're all uploaded minds experiencing totally configurable virtual realities of our design < 1265598405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be freakin' SWEET < 1265598407 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means I can show off without using my brain! < 1265598436 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Hahahah. < 1265598452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm shutting things down to leave... < 1265598456 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1265598456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a few minutes, tops. < 1265598457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265598474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Gxis la revido, mia bonega amiko. < 1265598481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Poo. < 1265598484 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"la" revido? < 1265598497 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what's -ega? < 1265598507 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a while < 1265598517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Very". < 1265598520 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265598521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone have anything to say to me before I disappear for five days? < 1265598531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: good luck < 1265598536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Thanks. < 1265598538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Retain thy sanity. < 1265598541 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, may you retain your sanity < 1265598545 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265598547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sgeo: EXPOSED AT LAST < 1265598560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one is the one created to fuck with me, pikhq or Sgeo? < 1265598563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265598576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo. < 1265598581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait which sense of "fuck" is this? < 1265598585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I KNEW IT < 1265598589 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye, alise. :( < 1265598590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He doth not use the common tongue correctly. < 1265598597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "to mess with". < 1265598602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The sexy sense! By which I mean the sense in which someone is created to confuse me. < 1265598608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Aww. Bye. < 1265598614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So long, suckers. If you don't keep the missing counter updated in the topic, I'll know you don't truly love me. < 1265598616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265598630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise/ehird/Lord Bob Bobbington Bobbingson the Third, out. < 1265598635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265598658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 2 days since last ehird sighting | 0 days since last alise sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265598680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1265598706 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ;) < 1265599014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, a dripping sound < 1265599307 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I'm just submitting my applied algebra homework with rendered latex and not caring that everyone else is using pencil+paper < 1265599315 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much easier to type it out < 1265599352 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265599384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always add some commutative diagrams for good measure < 1265599396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1265599492 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I have any homework that's due tomorrow. < 1265599502 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly nothing too abstract yet, just coding theory over binary n-tuples < 1265599522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My professor wants us to both submit the problems online and hand in a paper copy. So far, I think I've consistently done exactly one. < 1265599523 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not too many structures to commute over < 1265599539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and oklopol and your coding theory < 1265599570 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should learn LaTeX < 1265599577 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I really need to write a Haskell module that autogenerates tabular based on a function < 1265599707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes: maybe http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/tabular/0.1/doc/html/Text-Tabular-Latex.html ? < 1265599734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly again < 1265599749 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh. that would involve using the table AST-y thing they provide < 1265599783 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265599790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just googled anyhow < 1265599799 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you should < 1265600635 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hurrah, Visual Studio 2008 Professional Edition has been installed on my recently partitioned Windows 7 install < 1265600638 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shoots himself < 1265600669 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's for computer game programming class... I might be able to forgive myself < 1265600682 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also apparently recent versions aren't that bad at all < 1265600687 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't < 1265600742 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265600819 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265600823 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is the site for it: http://mysbfiles.stonybrook.edu/~mgruen/cse380/project.html < 1265600862 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the assignment? < 1265600900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( DirectX < 1265600912 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the individual project, spanning the next month or so < 1265600991 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1265601090 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it all relies on the delay idea being enjoyable < 1265601099 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo Gracenotes < 1265601101 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been idly thinking of puzzle ideas these last few days < 1265601163 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AUGUR < 1265601271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup bitch < 1265601948 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the identity matrix where n = 1 is just 1, right < 1265601958 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, of course it would be < 1265601998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DUH < 1265602013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diagonal unity, hurr < 1265602116 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :muahaha, latex is so pretty. I feel evil making such good-looking documents. < 1265602264 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1265602279 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel the same way < 1265602312 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, it's all an evil overlord plot isn't it < 1265602321 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all hail Knuth < 1265605213 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question: In Haskell, some pattern matches must be in parens. Why? < 1265605236 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. (x:xs) rather than x:xs < 1265605653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precedence. : has fixity 6 iirc < 1265605668 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and -> has higher precedence? < 1265605684 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, = < 1265605692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> and = is syntax. : is an operator < 1265605712 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I get it < 1265605714 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265605717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more importantly, function application has higher precedence. < 1265605721 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265606013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: http://www.haskell.org/onlinereport/syntax-iso.html < 1265606030 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1265606225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd XD < 1265606253 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is going to go buy a lab coat < 1265606482 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265606592 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265607038 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1265607549 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Floor_Feline < 1265608622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265608972 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265609519 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, I was writing a program today, and when using the GNU debugger I noticed that uninitialized values will be 0xBAADF00D and helps a bit < 1265609539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's rather nice, actually. < 1265609579 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a compiler setting < 1265609611 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean the -ggdb compiler setting? < 1265609626 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1265609637 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should do my homework < 1265609717 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how do you figure out what numbers you need to use in the weather forecast URL http://xml.weather.yahoo.com/forecastrss?p=AYXX0008&u=f < 1265609718 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... it occurs to me that functional programming is just a big pun < 1265609727 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by that? < 1265609734 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what way is it just a big pun? < 1265609749 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell Curries < 1265609770 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1265609787 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you get it? < 1265609793 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite. < 1265609820 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is a language that curries functions < 1265609829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is named for Haskell Curry < 1265609835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currying is named for Haskell Curry < 1265609842 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coincedence? < 1265609859 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, now I can see it < 1265609900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY < 1265609923 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think it is really a conspiracy? Some things might be conspiracies, but I'm not sure about this one. < 1265610099 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also noticed that converting the game "Escape from Planet Delta" from OASYS to TAVSYS, that the TAVSYS binary is smaller than the OASYS binary even though TAVSYS doesn't know about OASYS runtime, so it is built in to the TAVSYS story file instead. (Maybe it is because the TAVSYS file stores string using Baudot?) < 1265610403 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why can't I use the setenv function in gcc on MinGW? < 1265610467 0 :Floor_Feline!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gracenotes < 1265610497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Because Windows doesn't support that. < 1265610522 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK, but why? getenv works, though < 1265610548 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it work on gcc on Linux and on FreeBSD? < 1265610788 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have another question, too. I modified the Glk.dll for my program, by modifying the accelerator table using a resource editor program. How should I mention that? < 1265610832 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, in the about box (I can edit that with the resource editor, too), or something else, based on the license of the file, how is the good way to make it done? < 1265611253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Windows sucks. < 1265611255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why. < 1265611368 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that I can understand. Of course I know Windows sucks already, but, I still didn't put Linux, yet. But do you know the another question? < 1265611386 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Windows does not have POSIX < 1265611386 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't. < 1265611393 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must use the Win32 API to mess with that stuff < 1265611428 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then the program won't work on cross-platform < 1265611454 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least getenv works, I can do without setenv, for now, I guess. So getenv should work on cross-platform. < 1265611454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conditional compilation. < 1265611472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to do it a *lot*, simply because Windows likes to be petty. < 1265611478 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getenv is a C standard function < 1265611495 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or find a nice cross-platform library that does the conditional compilation for you < 1265611507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or use Winelib (not recommended) < 1265611552 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For now, I can just make it not compile in the part the uses setenv if it is Windows. < 1265611575 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, it can be work-around manually < 1265611672 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you using the environment variables for? < 1265611786 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But do you know the proper way to indicate somewhere that the Glk.dll is changed (if it is even necessary), to the user of the software? (I don't have the source-codes, I just changed it using resource editor, but source is available) < 1265611809 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using environment variables to check the directory for include files. If there is no environment variable, it will use the current directory. < 1265611822 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need setenv then? < 1265611836 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what do you mean "indicate somewhere that the Glk.dll is changed"? < 1265611853 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Indicate that he hex edited it, in essence. < 1265611867 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would he need to indicate that? < 1265611877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decency. < 1265611890 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really need setenv, it just makes the program a bit simpler to set the include path on the command-line by using the same variable instead of creating a new one. But, I still can create a new one, if I needed to. < 1265611919 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I didn't really use a hex editor, I used XN Resource Editor, and that is a bit different. < 1265611921 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get it < 1265611926 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it matter? < 1265611939 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to indicate it so that you can know that it is not the official file. < 1265611954 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change its signature < 1265611970 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What signature? < 1265611971 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: I have no clue how to do this. All I know is that they have magic GUIDs or the like < 1265611990 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you will also need to update the .lib < 1265611996 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you compile against < 1265612005 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION curses the Windows dynamic loader < 1265612016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION curses all dynamic loaders < 1265612219 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265612291 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows doesn't have much in the way of dynamic linking. < 1265612301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Merely just-in-time static linking. < 1265612301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265612313 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265612369 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program can compile in two mode, in COMPILE_TIME mode (which is cross-platform) and in RUN_TIME mode (which currently works only on Windows with Glk, but anyone that can fix this, to make it work on other operating systems with Glk, or without Glk, to please do so) < 1265612478 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the reason I needed to change the accelerators table is so that I can add special functions for the function keys even in line-input mode. WinGlk has command to add menus and toolbars, but they won't have accelerator keys and also won't work if menu/toolbars is turned off. So, I did like this instead, and it worked. < 1265612478 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1265612527 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265612778 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265613398 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I added the ID numbers 1 to 12 for the keys F1 to F12, but currently this program uses only F1 and F2 and F3 keys. I also added CTRL+K for the Glk options window (which is built-in to Glk.dll). < 1265613417 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you could look to see if the program is good or if there is something that you think could be improved and what it is. < 1265613508 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'm considering making an easier thue variant by introducing some kind of control flow (and making it sequential rather than nondeterministic), what kind do you need? goto-if-last-line-replaced-something? < 1265613538 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, but I guess maybe you can try goto-if-last-line-replaced-something and then see if it can work < 1265613731 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by writing your replacements in the right way, should be possible to write a program where the last line replaces something iff one of a number of previous replacements replaced something < 1265613749 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265613750 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can at least translate normal thue programs into it < 1265614001 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the problems here is that I have a fixed input and output format, it seems a bit difficult to work on that with thue, where you seem to often need end/start/position markers to drive the program < 1265614348 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once was on some weblog site that if you wrote "Anonymous" as your name, it shows a error message that you solved the CAPTCHA wrong. (I tried many times and this is what it did, until I put in a different name, such as "A. Nonymous") < 1265614641 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: NO CARRIER!!!!! < 1265615346 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265615395 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265615557 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265615999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265616000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265616984 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1265618220 0 :Slereah!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265619139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: it's the (s)h/it, man" you're a genius, have i mentioned < 1265619728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc <<< this is just tree rewriting < 1265619748 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatcha got against trees < 1265619776 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just mean that's an incredibly old idea < 1265619790 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pattern recognition" < 1265619793 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265619904 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So are logic combinators and yet there's a bunch of esolang about it! < 1265619949 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265620313 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just grumpy because i've made more advanced tree rewriters, but never made a language about them < 1265620499 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're just grumpy because you're crabbed, crabby, cross, fussy, grouchy, bad-tempered, ill-tempered, annoyed and irritable. < 1265620615 0 :Kori!~Kori@91.138.70.40 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265620615 0 :Kori!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fucking niggers! < 1265620615 0 :Kori!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265620644 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We sure are < 1265620697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speak for yourself there. < 1265621027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never fucked a nigger < 1265621042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but kori means "basket" in finnish < 1265621103 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265621456 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was also the monetary unit of Kutch prior to 1947, divided into 24 dokda. < 1265621511 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265622342 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is also a combinator program! < 1265622349 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what it would do < 1265622358 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :```kori < 1265622362 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1265622378 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not unlambda < 1265622677 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265622964 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265622986 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265624693 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265624761 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265625204 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265628057 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265632111 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265633575 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265634762 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265640531 0 :scarf_!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-ubwjzxcxoajmxbhk JOIN :#esoteric < 1265640539 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1265640556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot I was already connected... < 1265640604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi from inside my marking-Java session < 1265641028 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265641188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:17:09 Haskell is named for Haskell Curry < 1265641188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:17:15 currying is named for Haskell Curry < 1265641188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:17:22 coincedence? < 1265641235 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, official haskell history says that the reason they used his first name was to _avoid_ the obvious puns. < 1265641281 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a pun < 1265641298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: read the log < 1265641356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course those obvious puns probably did not have to do with the CS meaning of curry, anyhow. < 1265641415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also of course it's not a coincidence, the work that HC did involving combinatory logic lead to both < 1265641471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although currying was not really his invention. there's another joke that we should be happy it's not called schonfinkeling. < 1265641556 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan : I did < 1265641562 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currying Curry? < 1265641569 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ain't no pun < 1265641657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i didn't see anyone mentioning "currying curry". admittedly i'm still on yesterday's log. < 1265641698 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the pun then < 1265641716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"haskell curries", apparently < 1265641723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i didn't make it < 1265641738 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are excused then. < 1265641767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until the next time i make one even worse < 1265641838 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265641851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION made a Haskell pun once < 1265641876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well was it functional? < 1265641892 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265641913 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en pito < 1265641914 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maintenance < 1265641922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en kengän pito < 1265641924 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shoe grip < 1265641941 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finnish, the concise language < 1265641947 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265641976 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265642285 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265642310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "oerjan: it's the (s)h/it, man" you're a genius, have i mentioned <-- embarassingly often < 1265642324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a puny genius, at any rate < 1265642647 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!swedish test < 1265642650 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish test < 1265642651 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1265642651 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1265642667 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish The Feynman Checkerboard or Relativistic Chessboard model was Richard Feynman’s sum-over-paths formulation of the kernel for a free spin ½ particle moving in one spatial dimension. < 1265642668 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zee Feynmun Checkerbuerd oor Releteefistic Chessbuerd mudel ves Reecherd Feynmun’s soom-oofer-peths furmooleshun ooff zee kernel fur a free-a speen ½ perteecle-a mufeeng in oone-a speteeel deemunsiun. \ Bork Bork Bork! < 1265642726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was just before he was chased by a fermionic chicken. < 1265642751 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish bork < 1265642752 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bork < 1265642754 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish bork < 1265642755 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bork < 1265642756 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish bork < 1265642757 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bork < 1265642763 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BORK HARDER DAMN YOU < 1265642773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish Bork. < 1265642773 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bork. \ Bork Bork Bork! < 1265642780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish bjorkbarkburk < 1265642781 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bjurkberkboork < 1265642795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1265642800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish björkbarkburk < 1265642801 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :björkberkboork < 1265642812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my accent key is hung up < 1265642836 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish test. < 1265642837 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test. \ Bork Bork Bork! < 1265642845 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, it looks for stops < 1265643337 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265643353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pull out all the stops < 1265643463 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....a pipe oerjan? < 1265643478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1265643514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :referring to where the idiom "pull out all the stops" comes from < 1265643517 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and making an even worse pun < 1265643558 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats cpressey for having him google to find out the meaning of his own pun -----### < 1265643879 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have now lost all my faith in inheritance. Not that I ever had any. < 1265643910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah those kids never turn out like you want < 1265644818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265645413 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265646659 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265648320 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-0-119.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265648547 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An object-oriented esolang where you can only override a single term in a single expression every time you declare a subclass. < 1265648570 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like tall inheritance hierarchies. < 1265648763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that sounds like a good idea to add to my work-in-progress esolang whose concept is "almost a normal language, but has a huge number of arbitrary restrictions which make it a pain to write" < 1265648773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a particularly interesting concept, though, so I might just abandon it < 1265648786 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1265649000 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was what INTERCAL was < 1265649021 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, it has a completely different way of doing expressions, and a relatively different way of doing statements < 1265649030 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL's more like a regular imperative language based on different primitives < 1265649045 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1265649048 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does have the PLEASE thing and the 16-bit restriction for constants, but that's about it < 1265649062 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about a language that could compile to every major high level language < 1265649068 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not really eso though < 1265649076 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Underlambda! < 1265649092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully that'll compile to every major low level language too < 1265649099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pretty much every minor language that's powerful enough < 1265649119 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrr esolangs is always down < 1265649127 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265649133 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can I read about underlambda? < 1265649138 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Main_Page works for me < 1265649147 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but underlambda isn't published yet, it's something I'm working on < 1265649161 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I have a similar idea, but rather than "a huge number", I'm just trying to incorporate some of the most annoying ones. < 1265649164 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an intuitive view of it is "purely functional underload" < 1265649168 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah < 1265649180 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay it's on the wiki then < 1265649185 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tell me about it? :) < 1265649194 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's one I thought up: operator precedence is fixed but follows no pattern (originally determined at random), and parens aren't allowed < 1265649196 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rereads the underload page < 1265649213 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: basically, the idea's that you have a low-level core, and implement a higher-level language on top of it < 1265649214 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf that sounds like tough love < 1265649228 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had a buggy program the other day because ops were precd wrong :( < 1265649237 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the core is based on most of the same concepts as Underload: S works differently, but the rest of the commands are the same < 1265649293 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infix is fun to play with just because of that whole precedence thing. < 1265649316 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265649625 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265649753 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265649773 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265649881 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265650112 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265650804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, isn't there an algorithm for converting it to RPN? < 1265650969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, a specific name, named after someone or such < 1265651067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "it" = ? < 1265651087 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infix? < 1265651095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, probably. < 1265651200 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's fairly standard (at least for me) to parse infix based on a table and write out postfix opcodes, in a compiler. That would be pretty close to such an algorithm. < 1265651633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Converting it to RPN isn't much of an algorithm: just do a postorder traversal of the AST < 1265651652 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: there are algorithms that don't involve ASTs < 1265651666 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the work is done by the parser (precedence and associativity), before the AST is created. < 1265651667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently they were used in early compiler design; they'd compile infix to RPN and then build the AST from that < 1265651689 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back when people thought in fortran and recursion was scary < 1265651719 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite possibly the reason < 1265651720 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: O_o < 1265651747 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and memory was scarce, and ASTs were rare... < 1265651768 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well of course you can modify the AST-generating algorithm to print out RPN directly < 1265651774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like for shunting-yard < 1265651796 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that is, but yes. Like for a Pascal compiler. < 1265651803 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265651808 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunting-yard_algorithm < 1265651823 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1265651837 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I might guess that's the specific name you're looking for? < 1265652163 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shunting yard is pretty lol < 1265652179 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unsound on invalid inputs < 1265652194 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it's correct on correct inputs < 1265652203 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen it several times before, but never knew its name and origin < 1265652226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on wiki there's a great snippet "alternative to Dijkstras algorithm" < 1265652238 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically regex + into )+( and * into ))*(( etc < 1265652249 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can forget about precedence and just read it with the parens < 1265652284 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I got that wrong ))+(( and )*( < 1265653023 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Which is again unsound on invalid inputs, as that creates mismatched brackets so you don't know whether there were any in the original. < 1265653068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed < 1265653131 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: huh are you sure < 1265653156 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+2 -> 1))+((2 < 1265653166 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also add (((((( )))))) around the whole thing < 1265653204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah right, that probably works. < 1265653220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why couldn't you do error detection in shunting yard? < 1265653241 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1))+((2] <-- variant of that old Scheme syntax < 1265653262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm? < 1265653273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean lisp or scheme there? < 1265653274 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does square bracket mean "unlimited number of parens, so long as it matches"? < 1265653280 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe LISP, I don't remember. < 1265653285 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see why lispers would like that < 1265653290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is it those m-expression thingies? < 1265653293 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It actually seems very un-Scheme-like somehow, so maybe yeah. < 1265653298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever their name were < 1265653314 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hates that scheme syntax < 1265653320 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Yes, ] closes all currently open brackets. (There was no corresponding [ in LISP or whatever though.) < 1265653328 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION actually hates all [] {} crap in lisps < 1265653348 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea about the name of it. And yes, I'm not a fan of it either, except as an ugly eso-adoptable thing maybe. < 1265653357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people just use ] on IRC < 1265653370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is it related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-expression ? < 1265653374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where it comes from anyway, some crazy person decided to implement it after seeing it on IRC < 1265653400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: gack. < 1265653409 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. < 1265653419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "gack"? < 1265653441 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I meant: Gack!! < 1265653447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why < 1265653471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is it supposed to express < 1265653519 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surprise and alarm at unearthing of historical computer science artefacts. < 1265653527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265653555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was well known that the S-Expressions weren't intended to be used for coding in lisp originally < 1265653572 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: btw, the mixing of brackets and parens is one reason I'm not so keen on Clojure < 1265653599 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well .......... when it has a semantic meaning that's a BIT better, like [] for vectors < 1265653603 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what I really hate is fucking < 1265653611 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(let [(x ...) < 1265653616 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as if that is any easier to read < 1265653629 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like people that write sh*t as if that is somehow less offensive than shit < 1265653644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, actually it's completely different :-P < 1265653663 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION takes my similes and goes home < 1265653676 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Point taken. But it is probably a bit easier for your editor to highlight. I get into "just keep typing ) until you see the matched-paren-color move to the right place" < 1265653679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I found lisp without an editor that highlights the matching bracket to be very painful < 1265653705 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, just write it without any parens? < 1265653717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, if it is lisp: wtf? < 1265653730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp without parens... All comments? < 1265653735 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it like natural language, figuring out the ambiguity yourself < 1265653747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let x 3 map + x 3 foo < 1265653751 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LISP without parens would be Logo :) < 1265653754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, doesn't help the interpreter or compiler actually compile it < 1265653758 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1265653760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or interpret it) < 1265653769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I meant it is painful when coding lisp < 1265653770 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you NOT use an editor to write lisp on a computer? < 1265653780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for reading < 1265653781 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well your situation is just ridiculous so there's no solution to it < 1265653787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you talking about < 1265653788 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were talking about on paper < 1265653788 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LISP without parens would actually be fine, if all S-expressions started with an atom which determined the arity exactly < 1265653801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you must somehow have misread my comment < 1265653812 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265653831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm I can think of a syntax for that. +/5 or such. for 5 parameters < 1265653863 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, you mean encode the arity in the atom? Interesting, but probably a bit cumbersome. < 1265653864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really, I think in many cases it would be more irritating < 1265653871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very much so < 1265653873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, wasn't that what you meant? < 1265653898 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just thinking to store it in an internal table when the atom is defined < 1265653908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did you mean something like + 2 5 4 would be the same as (+ 5 4) < 1265653917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you forgot that some are n-ary, like + < 1265653919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and * < 1265653954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also any non-painful way to create lists < 1265653955 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: like that's necessary? Have them take 1 list as an argument. Or fix them at 2 arguments and apply them multiple times, like + 2 + 3 5 < 1265653961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, you could use lots of cons < 1265653965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but would you really want that < 1265653977 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you really want to use LISP without brackets? < 1265653999 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the answer to the above question is no: it doesn't matter. If it is yes: seek help. < 1265654002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in some cases I think you can get too many brackets < 1265654014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typically cond constructs comes to mind < 1265654024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if it is at the end of a define or lambda or similar < 1265654036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you often end up with ))))))) or so < 1265654048 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're going to make it optional, then you can just disallow it for the n-ary stuff. < 1265654060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, you could use indention to decide level < 1265654067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The beauty of the parens in LISP/Scheme is their regularity. The pain of the parens in LISP/Scheme is their regularity. < 1265654073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still have parens for some cases < 1265654082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like on one line where it makes more sense < 1265654104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get a lisp/python indention mix < 1265654114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how good this idea would be in practise < 1265654131 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I would prefer to define multiple syntaxes for a language: one which is "irregular but humane", like yr avg scripting language, and one which is "regular but inhumane" like Scheme or XML < 1265654134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't sound too bad to allow the high level structure without parens < 1265654163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "average scripting language" isn't really humane < 1265654177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because perl offsets the average so much < 1265654178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1265654185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :median might be better < 1265654219 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ha! Well, let's just say Perl is such an exceptional language, it's an outlier, and thus disregarded. < 1265654235 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have said, "a decent scripting language" < 1265654236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, a simple average wouldn't do that. < 1265654239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265654243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, escript? < 1265654247 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mode scripting language: Perl or PHP? < 1265654250 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never seen it. < 1265654260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hint: it is run by beam < 1265654261 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you mean Erlang < 1265654275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes erlang has escript < 1265654292 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang's not exactly my favourite for scripting < 1265654307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw, erl -man escript) < 1265654333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I've used it before, I've even built something to try to reduce the startup time < 1265654337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and yeah, the shutdown time is quite horrible for erlang in general. iirc it is less for escript though < 1265654393 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I used escript it was just a simple wrapper that knew about hashbang lines < 1265654398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I never found startup time to be any issue for erlang. The issue is instead that it takes about half a second from q() in the repl to getting back to prompt < 1265654442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I tend to use a shell script wrapper usually for erlang programs. Since escript isn't suitable to directly invoke the main program, you would have to start a new erlang anyway < 1265654450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you need anything like sasl < 1265654474 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember shutdown time being bad too, but startup was not great. The Erlang/OTP implementation was really meant for long-running systems, I concluded. < 1265654502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that is true. Idea: attach to existing erlang process < 1265654505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a new repl < 1265654507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is possible < 1265654520 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that was what I did -- search my site for erlaunch if you like :) < 1265654523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however it has to be distributed. < 1265654524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1265654535 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlaunch doesn't require it to be distributed. < 1265654578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If erlang is in disk cache, the launch time is maybe 1/10 second? It isn't instantaneous, but I wouldn't call it slow < 1265654582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the shutdown time however is slow < 1265654652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, what is the hardest bit in implementing intercal? My guess is parsing it. < 1265654680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you have it in some nice AST or similar, it doesn't look too hard < 1265654735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not easy either, but compared to parsing it...) < 1265655942 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I just realized, if you define a "humane" syntax on top of a Scheme-like syntax, you lose one of the nicest things about Scheme -- hygenic macros. Unless you have a predictable mapping between the 2 syntaxes. In which case, the argument for having 2 syntaxes at all is weakened. < 1265655971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about those parser thingies in erlang? < 1265655985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you know, liked used for the mnesia query thingies < 1265655986 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse transforms? < 1265655994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265656019 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to know about the internal representation (AST) iirc, which is subject to change iirc < 1265656040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why is it documented iirc? < 1265656076 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Ericsson is perfect in every way. < 1265656080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1265656178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then why the way they handle floating point NaN and +/- inf? < 1265656777 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Because they're trying to be "humane" by application of inconsistency? < 1265656809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265656871 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am eternally tempted to design a "real" language which "gets everything right". It's a bad temptation. It's better to stick to these weird little languages that intentionally get things "wrong"... < 1265656978 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just filter by features not present in any of your languages < 1265656989 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the remaining features will make up the ultimate one < 1265657913 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265657942 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you could do with a bot which tracks users' "sightings" < 1265658094 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: How about I just design a language which contains every possible feature, and let users decide. < 1265658170 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that has been tried and failed before < 1265658219 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think? :) < 1265658466 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, here's one peeve anyway. Access to stack traces always seems to be such an afterthought. I want first-class stack traces. < 1265658539 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there's an interesting idea < 1265658567 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that be sorta like continuations < 1265658593 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it would. A lot like continuations, actually. < 1265658636 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could live with them being slightly less than first-class, for efficiency. But still, it's so rare to be able to handle them like normal objects. < 1265658713 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, maybe Ruby does something like that though -- I wouldn't put it past it. < 1265658784 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 3 days since last ehird sighting | 1 days since last alise sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265659128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That would actually be continuations with transparency, really. < 1265659203 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. < 1265659267 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't Java provide that? < 1265659393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265659521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not check the logs for when tusho was last seen < 1265659554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheheh. < 1265659586 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yes, and it's interface is passable I suppose, but I still consider it an afterthought. < 1265659605 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So's Python's. < 1265659693 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In both, it looks like you can only get a stack trace after an exception is caught, for example. < 1265660320 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C, arguably, has them more first-class. "Getcontext" lets you start accessing the stack. From there, enjoy non-portable code. :P < 1265660419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you in Java just make any Throwable object and call .fillInStackTrace() to get access to it even without any throw-trickery? The method looks publicky. < 1265660431 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new Throwable.getStackTrace() < 1265660446 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, yes, the constructor says it calls fillInStackTrace automagically. < 1265660784 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION raises eyebrow < 1265660829 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is very susprised Throwable isn't abstract < 1265660979 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think the interface is kind of ugly, but it gets points for setStackTrace. < 1265661493 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems there's a limit of how long the stack trace may be, though < 1265661502 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Java, that is < 1265661506 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it stops at 1024 here < 1265662182 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have... acquired this bigram language model built out of song lyrics; can't quite decide whether I want to go through the hassle of converting it into fungot's format. (It's in HTK's special graph-like lattice format, and the existing tools don't quite seem to do the conversion backwards from that to something simpler; but I can run it through HTK's random-sentence-generation tool to get a feel to what fungot'd make of it.) < 1265662183 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you can get the consumer to just wait there, rather than character-port?, to keep the ai in certain circumstances. < 1265662192 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265662229 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's just bigrams, the lyrics don't seem to make that much sense... but then again, neither do all supposedly serious songs I've heard. < 1265662246 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"so long as their eyes / the ocean we'll see it's so i left now / and i want kiss my heaven on love comes to be free / sound of lonely voice is that / i could be it to the one so get married go / still no turning on take the new york new to save / just can't we had a troubled water what i fall / if there watching to the floor na na / mind lover / flip can't stop myself anymore" < 1265662247 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"come on the weather / so / i've got to work / i can see you believe in your nightmares me / that / cuz i hate me you see / but on" < 1265663526 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo_Zwei < 1265663542 0 :MigoMipo_Zwei!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1265665285 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265665297 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur! < 1265665342 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo < 1265665468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my client, relatively many people have five-character amber-colored nicks. < 1265665485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, scarf, alise. < 1265665493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl < 1265665532 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two five-letter all-lowercase amber nicks starting with A is far too many. < 1265665595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am i amber < 1265665623 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably because my client randomly assigned you that color. < 1265665633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1265665674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get different colors for augur, scarf, alise all; but augur and uorygl get the same pinkish color. XChat's color assignment is not random, though, or even pseudorandom: it's just the sum of the bytes in the nickname, modulo the number of available nick colors (9). < 1265665741 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no colors for people < 1265665760 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't XChat graphical? < 1265665773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is graphical. < 1265665778 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ought to have about 16,777,216 possible nick colors. < 1265665791 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a predefined list of 9 that should be sufficiently distinguishable, though. < 1265665814 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should use ColorMatch™ < 1265665818 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with that is that you can't distinguish between two of them if they're identical. < 1265665897 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should use my gcolor.pm. (Do a google image search for a word, fetch the thumbnails for first 100 or so results, compute the HSV histograms and pick a suitable maximum, convert to a single color; that's able to even give colors of abstract concepts.) < 1265666130 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#a3ba55 is the color of "irregularity", for example. (Based on irc logs; I have lost the code and the web-page about it, but it wouldn't be that tricky to reimplement if necessary.) < 1265666187 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what color that is. < 1265666225 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1265666226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is this < 1265666226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/blog/ConditionalExpressions < 1265666226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to favor Knuth's version, for four reasons: < 1265666226 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. He's Knuth. < 1265666227 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data:text/html, :) < 1265666236 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Light green-yellow. < 1265666365 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, it would make slightly more (or perhaps much less) sense to give colors as brightness, redness, blueness. < 1265666395 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what video formats do. < 1265666411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort-of. < 1265666425 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"YCbCr or Y′CbCr is a family of color spaces used as a part of the color image pipeline in video and digital photography systems. Y′ is the luma component and CB and CR are the blue-difference and red-difference chroma components." < 1265666503 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly that might be mostly because they can then use different resolutions for luminance and the chroma components. < 1265666524 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call those w, r, b. Then R = 2wr(1 - b), G = 2w(1 - r)(1 - b), and B = wb. Or something like that, anyway. < 1265666583 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, let's forget those 2s. < 1265666625 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, let's leave those 2s. < 1265666661 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick, someone implement that formula so we can see what happens. < 1265666689 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: That page talks about encoding truth values as 0/1 as if it's something, uh... esoteric. < 1265666726 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to make an esolang that uses 1 for true and 0 for false :D < 1265666927 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The operators are addition, multiplication, and subtraction. It is an error for an operator to return a result other than 0, 1, or 2, or for it to take a 2 and also return a 2. < 1265667177 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A quick game of boolean ring toss, anyone? < 1265668463 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265668516 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265668643 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265668794 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : an intuitive view of it is "purely functional underload" < 1265668804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underload is pretty purely functional < 1265668827 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could consider the program result just a lazy string < 1265668872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, AnMaster: how about, when the first value of a list is an atom, and that atom has a value recorded in the "fixed arities" table, then parentheses can be (at your option) omitted. Otherwise they are required. It's not a great rule maybe, but it's relatively simple. < 1265668933 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, there's still special forms. Like let. < 1265668936 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey I prefer my idea :P < 1265668941 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you never write any parens < 1265669670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm let takes a list doesn't it? < 1265669679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy! < 1265669684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: let ((name value)... ) < 1265669697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i teach you about lecomte's categorial minimalism? :D < 1265669720 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265669754 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes please do! < 1265669988 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, and I've never liked that syntax much. But it's a special form, so I'm not sure what could be done with it. < 1265670017 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can leave out the parens around the let itself < 1265670025 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the bindings list still needs them < 1265670082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: ha! Well, let's just say Perl is such an exceptional language, it's an outlier, and thus disregarded. < 1265670092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :median _is_ a way to remove outliers, you know < 1265670105 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe introduce an arity-3 form called = that just does one binding. Then you can say: = name value = name2 value2 expr < 1265670175 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then let* becomes a problem, but whatever < 1265670208 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/let*/letrec/ < 1265670247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I am eternally tempted to design a "real" language which "gets everything right". It's a bad temptation. It's better to stick to these weird little languages that intentionally get things "wrong"... < 1265670263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the problem is that the everythings contradict each other < 1265670336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or become undecidable, like when trying to make a type system that has every feature < 1265670356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*desirable feature < 1265670389 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm sure that's not the only problem. < 1265670413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok but it's an obvious one < 1265670458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well obvious after a few people have tried anyhow) < 1265670489 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265670509 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see how much more wrong it is to having an undecidable type system, than to have an undecidable execution model, which is essentially a given. < 1265670525 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/having/have/ < 1265670531 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265670555 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it shouldn't be a given, but at least in the modern world, it is. < 1265670570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because an undecidable type system won't even get through the compilation stage < 1265670627 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. But so what? We just blame that on the programmer, like C++ templates, and move on. < 1265670639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1265670657 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you mean, won't *ever* get through the compilation stage. Then I suppose we have a problem. < 1265670683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with enough features that should be easy enough to achieve :D < 1265670734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: C++'s type system makes C++ *parsing* undecidable. < 1265670749 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you have to know the types of things to parse C++. < 1265670755 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, I know. < 1265670765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the same is true of C, *but* C typing is trivial...) < 1265670786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why not check the logs for when tusho was last seen <-- he calls himself uorygl these days < 1265670853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, no < 1265670858 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tusho == ehird < 1265670863 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warrigal == uorygl < 1265670864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe in 50 years we'll have advanced to the point where we laugh at the fact that we once did everything in Turing-complete languages, like we now laugh at the fact that we once did everything in assembly. < 1265670876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (the same is true of C, *but* C typing is trivial...) <--- also, iirc the ramifications of it are less in C than C++ < 1265670887 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: whoops, i was sure tusho was one of ihope's < 1265670910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i'm thinking of kerlo < 1265670920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Slightly. < 1265670921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you don't have anything close to that example in the C++ FQA for C. < 1265670940 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: foo(bar) can *only* be a function call in C, after all. < 1265670948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/web-vs-c++.html#misfeature-2 < 1265670950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265670951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ^ < 1265670957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird tab typo < 1265670971 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone should program in C--! < 1265670976 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i'm wrong about that one too < 1265670988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think kerlo == Warrigal < 1265670996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and yes, variables can be one of three types basically: scalars, pointers, arrays. < 1265670997 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Warrigal == ihope < 1265671011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one is certain at least < 1265671022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Scalars, pointers, arrays, collections of variables. < 1265671040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh structs on the stack < 1265671042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot that < 1265671055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, global vars < 1265671104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, still, fairly trivial to figure out what things can be < 1265671143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, like * for multiplication can never look * for deref (or the reverse) < 1265671153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you don't know the types < 1265671158 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nice site at that link, thanks. < 1265671166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you didn't know about it? < 1265671167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265671226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnord < 1265671230 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nope. < 1265671246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265671275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah; you only need to know context for a few very specific things. < 1265671281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically, whether or not something is a type or variable) < 1265671291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, example? < 1265671338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually: < 1265671341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int * foo; < 1265671346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you have: < 1265671350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x * foo; < 1265671369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different results if x is a type or a variable < 1265671377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, foo * bar changes based on whether or not foo is a type. < 1265671379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is, if there is nothing in wrong of x < 1265671397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't apply if it happens anywhere but at the start of a statement < 1265671410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, "const foo". < 1265671411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in C89, only at the first statements in a given function < 1265671422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that only makes sense if foo is a type? < 1265671435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1265671446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo * bar looks like a useless expression statement though, even if legal... < 1265671464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, depends on if foo and bar have side effects ;P < 1265671469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, why multiply them < 1265671487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Actually, "const foo" might be equivalent to "const int foo". :P < 1265671488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still not particularly useful < 1265671489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it is however legal. GCC at least will issue a warning about unused value or something like that < 1265671504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, isn't that deprecated? < 1265671519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Still syntax. < 1265671519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, pretty sure it isn't even allowed nowdays? < 1265671534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's obviously legal since it would need a specific exception to make it not so... < 1265671539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 requires a note that it's deprecated. < 1265671544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265671554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well it's obviously legal since it would need a specific exception to make it not so... <-- ? < 1265671569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's an error if used for a function declaration. < 1265671612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the situations are rare. x * y = z; for example isn't ambiguous at all < 1265671643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: all expressions are statements, it would be messy to except only those that are apparently useless < 1265671645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor is x * y, z; < 1265671649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265671653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that latter one might be < 1265671660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it could be the comma operator < 1265671673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1265671692 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's either x times y, then z, or an x pointer named y and an x named z. < 1265671722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "This language prohibits useless statements and programs"? < 1265671725 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, Gcc the Great and Terrible, have judged your entire program to be apparently useless, and refuse to compile it. < 1265671725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example && and || could obviously be useful with statements < 1265671778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not particularly well-defined, that... < 1265671780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, x * y, * z should be non-ambig though < 1265671787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it was a joke < 1265671797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1265671862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually x * y = z could be a declaration with initialization, couldn't it < 1265671870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: x times y, then dereference z, or x pointer y, x pointer z. < 1265671932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh ffs right < 1265671959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: actually x * y = z could be a declaration with initialization, couldn't it <-- well, yes that is the only thing it could be afaik? < 1265671984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what else could it be? < 1265671984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait right x * y isn't an lvalue < 1265672004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thought that backwards < 1265672008 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah! What do you think this is, C++? < 1265672013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the term "lvalue" and such always confuse me < 1265672036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it much clearer if you just think about it at another level < 1265672046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually took me a moment to remember the term. < 1265672057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'm not sure you could make operator* return a reference in C++. But it sounds like the kind of thing C++ will let you do. < 1265672104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I avoid C++ < 1265672130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, care to link you lambda header file for C again? < 1265672133 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Very wise. < 1265672146 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I avoid it now, too, thankfully. < 1265672165 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter how much Python bugs me, I look back and my C++ days, and I don't look back. < 1265672187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why not erlang :) < 1265672187 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ach, and I've never used C++ for a personal project. That would be Wrong. < 1265672216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it wasn't that parsing intercal is such a pain I would probably try to write a bignum intercal interpreter in erlang < 1265672218 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Only sometimes :) < 1265672260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but looking at the lengths c-intercal goes to for parsing... I doubt I even want to try that < 1265672322 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: C++ operators are only required to return a value and be appropriately adic. < 1265672411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why not make the operator* return a pointer? < 1265672416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to itself < 1265672433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you could make a pointer class you could never dereference < 1265672463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can override & too, then you could make a class you can never take the address of! < 1265672517 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: given the various attempts to build "smart pointers" to work around the language's primitive memory model, I wouldn't be surprised if it has been done. < 1265672538 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Great! < 1265672548 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265672550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I want a circle of pointers in C < 1265672550 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, cpressey: That sort of stuff is done in the actual FAQ, at http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/freestore-mgmt.html#faq-16.25 < 1265672559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we can x * y = z to our hearts' content. < 1265672561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would only work for void* < 1265672869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void *x = &x; < 1265672892 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION = ihope = kerlo = Warrigal = Tanner Swett < 1265672902 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird = tusho = alise = Elliott Hird < 1265672975 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :union p { union p *p; } p = { &p }; ... but maybe that doesn't quite count. < 1265672992 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it really a good idea to talk real names in this channel < 1265673005 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't really matter < 1265673032 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Josiah 'pikhq' Worcester. < 1265673047 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh, aaah. < 1265673049 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/whois coppro < 1265673071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ZOMG < 1265673085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INORITE? < 1265673147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: um Tanner Swett is your real name? < 1265673244 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as anyone knows < 1265673344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't know tanner was a first name < 1265673401 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION knows two Tanners in real life < 1265673450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i found a Tanner Swett on linkedin, but i doubt uorygl has joined university yet < 1265673457 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Maybe it was a honorific, in this case. < 1265673483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265673490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean he's very bronze-colored? < 1265673543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes; it's the penultimate step before graduating to Tannest. < 1265673554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1265673597 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are three Tanner Swetts visible in the book of faces. < 1265673615 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And one Lindsay Tanner Swett, but I daresay that's not it. < 1265673626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1265673641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it _is_ warrigal < 1265673686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: darn i thought it was just a moment ago you were 14 :D < 1265673778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess you're at least old enough to reveal your real name then < 1265673864 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't reveal his real name until he was 17 < 1265673908 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265673922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Misread that as "Sgeo didn't learn his real name until he was 17"; that sounds like a funny environment to grow up in. < 1265673966 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well _i_ thought about how surprised his parents must have been when he revealed it < 1265673993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265674497 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265674869 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265674968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265675828 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265675887 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265676115 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265678062 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265678701 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1265678928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265679320 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265679359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265679635 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265679717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265679966 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265680015 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265680231 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265681181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265681522 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265681550 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265682142 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265682205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265682329 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1265682487 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265682563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265682765 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: indeed, I have joined university. < 1265682776 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there are three of me? Darn, what happened to my monopoly? < 1265682809 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you failed to show up to your anti-trust proceedings, so there was a default judgement < 1265682832 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww. And I never even got the letter. It must have gotten lost in the mail. < 1265682839 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265682842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably in your spam folder somewhere < 1265682862 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265682905 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm the white, fuzzy one. < 1265682935 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Standing on a solar panel in outer space. < 1265682958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265683104 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265683128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265683403 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265684054 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265684470 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265684893 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: which university? < 1265685000 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265685764 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265685947 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265686192 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Washizu Mahjong...:F:ALKSF:LAKSF:KJSDMCP#RC)I(UM@!$X<)!U@$# < 1265686438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265686805 0 :olsner!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265686818 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265686868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265687250 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Grand Valley State. < 1265687262 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265687277 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1265687300 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grand Valley State Universirty. < 1265687303 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/r// < 1265687324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Univesirty? < 1265687479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very gud speeling progarm < 1265688542 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wheres that ey < 1265689419 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265689474 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DONE GONE TUH UNIVERSIRTY < 1265689619 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you please review my program to see if it is good? < 1265689630 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you please review my program to see if it is good enough? < 1265689665 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, did you read that: http://notalwaysright.com/its-difficult-to-make-it-any-simpler/4160 < 1265690299 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265691416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265693796 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265693796 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@wikipedia/PuzzletChung JOIN :#esoteric < 1265694863 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate my school board's internet connection < 1265694885 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :51 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 50254ms < 1265695146 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's amazing I can connect at all < 1265695284 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265695577 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265696473 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265696491 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1265696535 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1265696573 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hai ku < 1265697712 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265698377 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Do_notation_considered_harmful is about LYAH < 1265698807 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265699046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265699395 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Seeeeeya < 1265699667 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265701606 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265701791 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265702399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265702400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265703340 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-224-192.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265703441 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265703861 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265704777 0 :Slereah!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265705358 0 :Lageron!~Lageron@91.82.25.45.pool.invitel.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1265705556 0 :Lageron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi! < 1265706858 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1265707607 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265707828 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265709102 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265709404 0 :Lageron!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265712067 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-xsqtesvsvtkzirug JOIN :#esoteric < 1265712647 0 :mosasaur1!~mosasaur@84.26.40.63 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265713203 0 :mosasaur1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265713677 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265717571 0 :kernel51!~user@213.30.189.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265717582 0 :kernel51!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greetings < 1265720715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1265720723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that was a bit slow < 1265720725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kernel51 < 1265720806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265720806 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265720806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265720806 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-xsqtesvsvtkzirug JOIN :#esoteric < 1265721155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1265721418 0 :kernel51!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265721465 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265721522 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265721578 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265721591 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1265722874 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265723089 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265723503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265724202 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265724362 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265724577 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265725201 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265726988 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265726997 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1265727637 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265728926 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265729384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7.0.0.5.770.5.8.7.0.0.5.4...1... < 1265729647 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265729855 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265730011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 7.0.0.5.770.5.8.7.0.0.5.4...1... <-- i think version numbering has got out of hand < 1265731030 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks like an OID, except not quite. < 1265731177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, SNMP request for the uptime of a system will end up looking for object 1.3.6.1.2.1.1.3, or (with the symbolic names) iso.org.dod.internet.mgmt.mib-2.system.sysUpTime. And that's among the simple ones. < 1265731305 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sample OID given elsewhere is 1.3.6.1.4.868.2.4.1.2.1.1.1.3.3562.3: iso.org.dod.internet.private.transition.products.chassis.card.slotCps.cpsSlotSummary.cpsModuleTable.cpsModuleEntry.cpsModuleModel.3562.3 -- they haven't even bothered to invent symbolic names for the last two levels of the hierarchy. < 1265731352 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have to say I like that all those standard SNMP MIB objects are hierarchically speaking under United States Department of Defense. < 1265731578 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265731600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, to me that looks pretty out of hand too. < 1265733070 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1265733075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that version number, what is it for? < 1265733152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a joke, AnMaster, a joke < 1265733165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1265733165 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265733166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or alternatively, ask oklopol not me < 1265733664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah wrong nick < 1265733671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what is that version number for? < 1265733707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what do you actually use snmp for. Just status info? < 1265733830 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a version number < 1265733833 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use it, I just know these things. (To the bus now →) < 1265733838 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry < 1265733844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merry bus < 1265733859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's busmas! < 1265734088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my back is killing me < 1265734176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ADSL modem I have does traffic counters over SNMP, I used to have a mrtg-based traffic graph, but it was boring. < 1265734377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be more interested in the negotiated line speeds (to monitor I'm getting my money's worth) but annoyingly that datum is not reported over SNMP, just a lot of useless junk. < 1265734536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265734563 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265735320 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265735438 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-4-139.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265737794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can you do any setting changes over snmp? < 1265740079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi there, back in your old nick I see < 1265740090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about strange courses and other university issues < 1265740097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I'm helping some people play NetHack < 1265740100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :changing nick would confuse them < 1265740114 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new nick? :o < 1265740146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I currently have a "module" in math that consists two sub-modules. Submodule two comes before submodule 1 < 1265740151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in scheduling < 1265740152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265740219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, reason: they switched order of them before, but the confusing when trying to renumber them was too great. People taking a "omtenta" (not sure what it is in English, it is what you do when you fail at a test for a module, and have to do it again) ended up taking it for the wrong submodule and such < 1265740231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"retake" in english < 1265740243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, having module 2 before module 1 also causes all sorts of confusion for *new* students < 1265740289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently they are considering renaming them to A and B instead of 2 and 1, hoping that might cause less confusion < 1265740392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw, know anyway to make that gvfs thing not claim the cd? It causes all sorts of issues when it mounts audio cds. At to moment the only way to eject an audio cd is sudo eject /dev/sr0 < 1265740406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1265740414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1265742275 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265743357 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a question about Turing-completeness proofs. < 1265743457 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265743465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say I have a language, let's call it L. L is based on some indisputably Turing-complete language, say Scheme, except it has a huge number of arbitrary constraints and restrictions placed on it. < 1265743474 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey! < 1265743475 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1265743489 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi lament :) < 1265743701 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anyway, L has a huge number of constraints on it. So many, in fact, that it's only possible to write 3 programs in L: Ackermann's function, Hunt the Wumpus, and a Kipple interpreter. < 1265743709 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is L Turing-complete? < 1265743761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Kipple? < 1265743777 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's assume Kipple is TC. < 1265743785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then yes. < 1265743799 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1265743806 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it's not turing-complete < 1265743832 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Sure it is. It is evaluating a TC language, and therefore must be Turing-complete. < 1265743839 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what therefore? < 1265743849 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you see why I asked :) < 1265743855 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think the ADSL box's SNMP bit is completely read-only, so no. Unless you're asking about the protocol in general, which does allow making configuration changes. < 1265743891 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's like saying a box with an apple inside is an apple. < 1265743907 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No. It's like saying a box with an apple possesses an apple. < 1265743914 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1265743971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing-complete means that it can evaluate a UTM and that a UTM can evaluate it. < 1265743982 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Kipple interpreter can be considered a UTM. < 1265744004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I presume that L can be implemented on a TC system. < 1265744027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it was in general < 1265744029 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L is a subset of Scheme, and Scheme can be implemented on a TC system, so yes < 1265744046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Then clearly L must be Turing-complete. < 1265744054 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme and Kipple of course just being concrete examples of TC languages, you could pick any you liked. < 1265744076 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: a Kipple interpreter cannot be considered an UTM because it isn't. < 1265744086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1265744099 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I might agree. But then, I would still have to say that there is still a sense in which L is not 'universal', because I can't write arbitrary programs in L. < 1265744106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Is Kipple Turing-complete? < 1265744115 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's assume it is. < 1265744121 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can only write them in Kipple-interpreted-by-L. < 1265744125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Then it is equivalent to a UTM. < 1265744127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't this like asking if HQ9+ extended with something like "b - interpret the rest of the code as brainfuck" is TC < 1265744129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it is < 1265744141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure it is. < 1265744147 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sure, it is < 1265744153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265744153 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike L < 1265744159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't L that then? < 1265744176 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, L could be that if you like. < 1265744179 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can write arbitrary programs in HQ9+b but not in L < 1265744192 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: You can? < 1265744195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: But you certainly can. < 1265744209 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "interpret the rest of the *code* as brainfuck"? Sure you can < 1265744212 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the point of HQ9+ was that you couldn't. If you can, it doesn't count. < 1265744223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what about changing it to "interpret a file given as a command line argument to the HQ9+b interpreter as brainfuck" < 1265744227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than having it in the same file < 1265744229 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Ah, OK. < 1265744230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it still tc? < 1265744232 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, then it's not TC < 1265744244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it is. < 1265744259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just got two inputs for code. < 1265744266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265744276 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're confusing levels of abstraction < 1265744287 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's bad < 1265744292 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265744311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you're pretending there's a difference between a seperate file and an arbitrary string in the program. < 1265744312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might agree that L is not TC, too, but then i'd still have to say that there is still a sense in which is it 'universal', because it can 'host' a single UTM (and that UTM could host any other UTM). < 1265744316 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the level of L, the kipple interpreter is just a single object; it doesn't have any properties since there're no operations on it < 1265744322 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, L is not TC < 1265744358 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, either we're talking about L < 1265744367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: It's like having a TM with two tapes -- one of which is attached to a machine that can only pretend to be a specific UTM, the other is the tape for that machine. < 1265744371 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or we're talking about Unix machine which has L in it, and you can also run the Kipple interpreter it produces < 1265744386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what then if a language requires each command to be in a separate file. Lets say bf but you can only have one char in each file and it reads the files sequentially (according to file name in C locale sorting) to get the program < 1265744388 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the latter case, the device we're questioning the TCness of is not L, it's your Unix machine < 1265744389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that then TC < 1265744394 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, your unix machine is TC < 1265744417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: ... < 1265744436 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's another thing to consider: "For some input x, and some L program p, does p halt on x?" is undecidable (even though there are only 3 possibilities for p) < 1265744438 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: then the system comprised of the interpreter and a filesystem is TC < 1265744444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: But the L interpreter is simply reading a different tape for actually being universal rather than from the *same* tape. < 1265744454 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: idgi < 1265744512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a multi-tape bf < 1265744526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with limited length of tapes but infinite number of tapes < 1265744539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There exists an interpreter for a Turing-complete language in L, therefore *L is Turing complete*. Quod erat demonstrandum. < 1265744590 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One reason I brought this up is because there are lots of proofs of Turing-completeness out there that have the form "I wrote a UTM in this language, therefore this language is TC." If L isn't TC, then all those proofs are invalid. < 1265744608 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??????? < 1265744617 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would instead have to show that *any* UTM has a mapping to a program in the language. < 1265744618 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: we need to look at the spirit of TC definition < 1265744626 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's it? < 1265744637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Math doesn't have "spirt". < 1265744640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spirit, even < 1265744641 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the rationale for def-n of TC being able to run any program? < 1265744645 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq yeah it does < 1265744656 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: er, of course it does < 1265744695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. < 1265744695 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say that this is the spirit of TCness (quoting Wikipedia): < 1265744696 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Two computers P and Q are called Turing equivalent if P can simulate Q and Q can simulate P." < 1265744698 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Church–Turing thesis states that if an algorithm (a procedure that terminates) exists then there is an equivalent Turing machine, recursively-definable function, or applicable λ-function, for that algorithm." < 1265744715 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason turing machines are interesting is because they can run any algorithm < 1265744736 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And L can run any algorithm. < 1265744743 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it can't < 1265744749 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Kipple* can run any algorithm. < 1265744756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Kipple can, and it can run any Kipple algorithm. < 1265744757 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L can run any algorithm written in Kipple. < 1265744770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That statement was absurd, no? :) < 1265744781 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so. < 1265744800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computer L can simulate Kipple. And the computer Kipple (by merit of being TC) can simulate Scheme, a superset of L. < 1265744806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So L and Kipple are Turing-equivalent. < 1265744829 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The computer L" cannot print a list of primes < 1265744830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since Kipple and any TC language are *also* Turing-equivalent... L is TC. < 1265744831 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have anyone proved church turing thesis?? < 1265744837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Yes it can. < 1265744842 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Well, it can, but only on the right input. < 1265744842 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum physics is evidence for church turing isn't it < 1265744844 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there exists an algorithm to print a list of primes, L cannot do it, therefore L is not TC < 1265744853 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: But L can do it. < 1265744865 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine. L is TC then. < 1265744865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The computer L, given no input, cannot print a list of primes. < 1265744883 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok you win L is TC < 1265744884 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament you have be careful there because imagine a language that always printed HELLO when it started < 1265744901 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cannot print hte list of primes without first printing HELLO, but it could still be TC < 1265744906 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no problem saying L is TC, but then I have to think of TC as not telling you as much about a language as you might like to know. < 1265744914 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general... you have to worry about input/output interpretations < 1265744914 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-12.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265744939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, either way this results in some issues for the esolang community as far as I can tell < 1265744942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Church-Turing thesis is trivially proven. < 1265744942 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I agree with pikhq < 1265744947 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1265744952 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: we just consider the input to be part of the program code < 1265744963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either TC doesn't really mean much, or a lot of the proofs are invalid < 1265744963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: See compilers. < 1265744966 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: because what else can we consider it as? turing machines don't have IO < 1265744968 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might be thinking of a different theorem than me pikhq < 1265744977 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: with that clarification, L is obviously TC < 1265744998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Yes they do -- Tape. :P < 1265745007 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your statement of it? < 1265745017 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah. < 1265745027 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code = data .. < 1265745037 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: If an algorithm exists, there exists an equivalent Turing machine for it. < 1265745047 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq and you know how to prove it?? < 1265745054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265745068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be possible to write a brainfuck compiler in befunge93 btw < 1265745076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have several algorithms for converting algorithms to Turing-complete languages. < 1265745082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265745083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it is trivial to compile it to unoptimised C < 1265745129 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you reading it as: if a turing machin exists, there exists an equivalent turing machine for it? < 1265745135 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's now how I read it < 1265745251 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Turing machines aren't algorithms. < 1265745267 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though by the Church-Turing thesis, they can be equivalent to them. < 1265745280 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I can't see what you mean really < 1265745282 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algorithms always halt, by many definitions. < 1265745461 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about < 1265745461 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/church-turing/ < 1265745461 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Misunderstandings of the Thesis" < 1265745598 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If an algorithm can be described, it can be described with a Turing machine, is how I take pikhq's statement. < 1265745631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Algorithms always halt, by many definitions. <-- oh? So anything that may go on forever (say, an algorithm over the natural numbers) wouldn't be an algorithm < 1265745636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, over all of them < 1265745669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Quite. < 1265745679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you can it then < 1265745692 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... English? < 1265745697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please, speak English? < 1265745697 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265745763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1265745765 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, people seem to abuse the word "algorithm" a lot too. To me a heuristic is not an algorithm < 1265745792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there is an "algorithm" for interpreting brainfuck, even though it may never halt < 1265745799 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eople abuse church turing < 1265745812 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think someone famous (Knuth?) wrote a definition of algorithm, and "always halt" was in it. < 1265745829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about an algorithm for parsing a stream of unknown length, it would depend on the length of the stream < 1265745843 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :productive < 1265745849 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you define algorithms as processes that can be described by a turing-machine, then church-turing is trivially true < 1265745861 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not really how they're defined for the purposes of the thesis itself < 1265745868 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament yeah which is why I don't think that's a correct interpretation of church-turng < 1265745870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: More of a tautology, really. < 1265745871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265745878 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: right < 1265745882 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the link I have given goes into this in some detail < 1265745886 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now church and turing were pretty smart guys < 1265745891 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < 1265745892 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they didn't think this was a tautology < 1265745902 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament you are really good at explaining < 1265745910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : lament: More of a tautology, really. <-- a tautology is trivially true though < 1265745913 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265745913 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1265745919 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMasterXD < 1265745919 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, of course. < 1265745932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's a tautology right there. ;) < 1265745942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, quite < 1265745992 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265745995 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the operative word in the Church-Turing stuff is "effective", which AFAICT has a specific meaning in the philosophy of mathematics. I think of it as close to "can be described." But that implies that the person doing the describing is using a particular language to describe it in, etc etc < 1265746008 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'"a tautology is trivially true" is trivially true is a tautology' is trivially true < 1265746041 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah like what if you happend upon a HALTING ORACLE one day < 1265746045 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you made a computer out of it < 1265746051 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then turing machines aren't enough < 1265746058 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, exactly < 1265746070 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum computation IS turing equivalent though < 1265746076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: By merit of having a halting oracle, you're out of the realm of Turing machines. ;) < 1265746084 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in terms of /what/, but not in terms of algorithmic complexity) < 1265746093 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the halting oracle is like Bigfoot. No one's caught one, but they can't prove it's not out there somewhere. < 1265746093 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think that gives EVIDENCE for Church-Turing < 1265746138 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is *math*, not science! < 1265746170 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church-Turing is philosophy, not math. < 1265746185 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing-*complete* is math :) < 1265746213 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Church-Turing Thesis was philosophy < 1265746215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really math ? < 1265746229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhere in the math/philosophy overlap. < 1265746364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if L is TC, what do we call the other property -- "I can express any algorithm directly in L, without relying on a particular input"? < 1265746430 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or "For each unique TM x, there is a unique L-program y, where x and y compute the same function." I think you have to say unique, otherwise you could just map all TMs to the same L program. < 1265746431 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265746438 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265746446 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1265746550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm... for the latter, if L allows some variable names to be changed or other such trivial things, then that isn't enough < 1265746567 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Damn, you're right. < 1265746576 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be rather humorous. < 1265746602 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cpressey: Is L Turing-complete?" <<< turing completeness doesn't have a definition, people disagree on cases like this; well, if you can make the kipple interpreter, make it run an arbitrary program, and redirect IO to it, then "obviously" you have a tc language, but i'm assuming you can just say interpret input as kipple or something. < 1265746608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes, it could allow the function name and variable names to be changed, plus maybe the order of statements that doesn't depend on each other < 1265746668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I think the known "sufficient" isn't equal to the known "necessary" for defining TC. At least that is my impression < 1265746677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the resulting disagreement < 1265746695 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you elaborate on that? < 1265746715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I'm sure you are familiar with the phrase "necessary and sufficient"? < 1265746724 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1265746744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we know some things are necessary for TC, everyone agrees on some minimums. < 1265746747 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what are the known necessaries and sufficients here < 1265746749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265746756 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i suppose < 1265746756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, we know some sufficient examples of them < 1265746765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just that we don't know the minimum sufficient set < 1265746794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, did that make it clearer? < 1265746820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265746868 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get the impression Turing-complete had a good definition back when it was established in "recursive set theory" -- unfortunately, no one thinks in terms of recursive sets much anymore. < 1265746885 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, not outside ivory towers. < 1265746896 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, it really didn't < 1265746904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh? Also what exactly is recursive sets. It sounds like something that allows Russell's paradox < 1265746956 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it means the set of languages that are recursive, the sets aren't recursive in any way < 1265746960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R < 1265746975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1265746975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.amazon.com/Recursively-Enumerable-Sets-Degrees-Perspectives/dp/0387152997 < 1265746978 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1265746985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ah well, as long as we avoid mathematical barbers I'm happy ;) < 1265746986 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1265746989 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1265746990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1265746995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, stop it < 1265747002 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not deliberate, client bug < 1265747004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well freenode rate limits it < 1265747008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank god for that < 1265747017 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, "recursive set" is kind of a misnomer - the sets of values defined by recursive functions, is where i think it comes from < 1265747020 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow anmaster calm down < 1265747047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, good < 1265747078 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I'd be surprised if it didn't have a fairly good definition w.r.t. sets. < 1265747092 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R is the set of languages for which there it a tm that accepts them and always halts < 1265747102 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RE is the set of languages for which there is a tm that accepts them < 1265747116 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(halts on trues) < 1265747121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a language = a set of inputs? < 1265747138 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1265747146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in a FSA? < 1265747168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ^ < 1265747179 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the language of such words that if you put them on the tape and run the tm, ... < 1265747188 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, FSA accept certain languages (= sets of strings), yes. < 1265747198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah same meaning of "language" then < 1265747199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1265747257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you have to tell vlc what sort of disc you want to play? I mean, can't it check the reader and see "oops, that wasn't an audio cd, lets try a dvd..." < 1265747288 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought in this context your set was "Turing-complete" if there was a surjection from your set onto RE < 1265747292 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something like that < 1265747306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what set? < 1265747308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1265747339 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a set that is turing complete, or a computational model? < 1265747371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i've never heard the term in recursion theory context.d) < 1265747373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-d < 1265747376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In recursive function theory, it's a set. But it can be the set of strings (= language) accepted by a computer. < 1265747430 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what I've read, it's only sets that can be TC. Through convenient abuse of terminology, computers "are" TC because they accept a TC set. < 1265747438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I would be interested in a good definition of this def that L is not a part in but languages like brainfuck, befunge98, and an UTM *are* part of < 1265747439 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what kind of surjection exactly? there's a surjection from the naturals to RE. < 1265747443 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1265747449 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well reals at laest < 1265747453 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I have no idea. I only half-remember this stuff. But it's in that book. < 1265747456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reals < 1265747461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265747479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm is L just TC or is it actually equivalent to an UTM or to lambda calculus or such? < 1265747490 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have surjection wrong. But I don't think it's an isomorphism. It's very possible for an (uncomputable) set to be "more than" TC. < 1265747492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be the key to this (word trickery that is) < 1265747522 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course, you'd never find the idea that TC applies to sets on TC's wikipedia page, because wikipedia doesn't work that way. :) < 1265747539 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, the original (turing's?) definition from what i've heard was that the inputs to the machine need to be finite + infinite amount of zeroes, that's another thing people disagree about (and much harder to fix) < 1265747541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, by the way, I don't think I ever seen any example of an uncomputable problem < 1265747567 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: um. Halting problem? < 1265747570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i have no idea what an isomorphism is in this context < 1265747572 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, rendering the mandelbrot set < 1265747576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh duh < 1265747576 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's uncomputable < 1265747586 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: one-to-one and onto? < 1265747592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, err? < 1265747592 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a bijection < 1265747595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, how so? < 1265747601 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but still semi-decidable :) < 1265747610 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still that's just a question of cardinality, i don't see how that helps < 1265747611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I mean, isn't that fractable one of the most popular ones arround < 1265747611 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Sorry, that was what I meant. < 1265747613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around* < 1265747618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true < 1265747618 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's why I mentioned it < 1265747628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, so how can it then be uncomputable? < 1265747641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing that's uncomputable is solomonoff inductioon < 1265747652 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no worries, it's the isomorphism of the category Set < 1265747674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, "solomonoff inductioon"? < 1265747679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure about that spelling? < 1265747719 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265747720 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck < 1265747728 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was obviously a typo < 1265747750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, right, I wasn't sure about the first being correctly spelt either < 1265747755 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure I've ever seen a non-contrived problem that wasn't even semi-decidable, although there are sets that aren't (but you can just construct those with intersection etc) < 1265747773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hrrm < 1265747819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I thought the halting problem was *undecidable* not *uncomputable* < 1265747819 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a name for "not even semi-decidable" but I don't remember it. They start getting into capital greek letters with superscript numerals and stuff. < 1265747825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe they are the same thing? < 1265747830 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: whether a tm does not halt with a given input is not in RE and therefore not in R either (it's obviously in co-RE though), whether it accepts everything is neither in RE nor co-RE < 1265747833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think they are more or less the same thing. < 1265747866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1265747877 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RE intersect co-RE, that's the "completely undecidable" set I was thinking of < 1265747886 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a while though. < 1265747909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's pretty non-contrived to check if a given first-order arithmetic formula if true < 1265747925 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: But isn't that RE? < 1265747935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement tm's in that easily, and obviously it's in RE iff it's in co-RE < 1265747943 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can't be in either. < 1265747960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a very non-obvious meaning of obvious, i suppose < 1265747993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265747998 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cpressey: RE intersect co-RE, that's the "completely undecidable" set I was thinking of" <<< no that's R < 1265748005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the completely decidable set < 1265748014 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Indeed. < 1265748051 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, I don't see how "check if a given first-order arithmetic formula is true" isn't in RE < 1265748060 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't I enumerate them? < 1265748071 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Check each one, if it's true, spit it out? < 1265748072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds like equation solving? Or maybe I completely misread that < 1265748084 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you check one? < 1265748084 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it runs forever, so be it? < 1265748097 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the arithmetic formulas are first-order, they can quantify over integers < 1265748130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Try all possible proofs of its truth nondeterministically? < 1265748151 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who says everything has a proof? < 1265748158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly is a "first-order arithmetic formula" < 1265748162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, this is one proof that there is no proof for everything < 1265748182 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Granted. < 1265748214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you have universal and existential quantification over integers, addition, multiplication and equality check, and then boolean operators. < 1265748237 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For example: For all integers x, x * 1 = x. < 1265748259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you mean like Exists x ( x * 2 = 4 ) ? < 1265748264 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265748265 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had forgotten how slippery those were :) < 1265748282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well that is easy to prove. equation solving < 1265748290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even it can < 1265748296 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still seems like you could enumerate the ones that do have proofs. < 1265748297 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that one is easy to prove < 1265748305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't* be solved exactly you can often solve them numerically afaik < 1265748312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for first order ones < 1265748315 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numerically, huh < 1265748324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did hear these are integers, right? < 1265748335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, is that first order as in "no differentiation"? < 1265748339 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265748349 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's as in no quantification over more complicated things than numbers < 1265748393 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :differentiation is not very sensible with integers < 1265748500 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :differentation no foobars < 1265748504 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: At any rate, I thought the definition of a set S being TC was that there was a mapping from every member of S onto every member of (I guess) RE. < 1265748532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you realize that's just a matter of cardinalities? < 1265748542 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that I typed it out, yes :) < 1265748546 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you can just take an arbitrary set that has the same amount of elements < 1265748566 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, i think we need a slightly different definition < 1265748581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm misremembering it. Maybe it was "computable mapping", for some definition of "computable". < 1265748594 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing-machine computable would be most likely < 1265748704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ah okay < 1265748841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the cardinality of Q but with all the roots for each one appended. I guess it wouldn't be aleph_0 any more? < 1265748859 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_degree < 1265748862 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the roots? < 1265748879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well yes, if you just had square root it would be trivial to match it up to Q < 1265748886 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing complete = Turing degree 0' < 1265748892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with cube root and so on < 1265748900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it would be much larger I suspect < 1265748903 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well it's Q x N I guess < 1265748908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is countable again < 1265748912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, oh? really? < 1265748923 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q x N because you can represent the n'th root of q as a pair: (q,n) < 1265748924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would it be countable < 1265748943 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because countable x countable is countable (cantors zig-zagonalization theorem) < 1265748944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, true, But do show where you would begin counting < 1265748952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265748954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1265748957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could go like that < 1265748959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1265748963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1265749055 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cpressey: But I think someone famous (Knuth?) wrote a definition of algorithm, and "always halt" was in it." <<< aocp starts with a definition of algorithm, then "of course we can never give an exact definition of an algorithm", then a description of a string rewriting system as a formal model. < 1265749097 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so first problem set has you writing stuff in thue, you gotta love aocp) < 1265749119 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1265749124 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't do ANYTHING with thue < 1265749130 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get this book < 1265749154 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't set of algebraic numbers also countably infinite (and set of all integer roots of all rationals is strict subset)? < 1265749188 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4. He's *Knuth*. < 1265749211 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265749224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: sure < 1265749248 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't get the part in parens < 1265749272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 4 days since last ehird sighting | 2 days since last alise sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265749283 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless by rationals you mean rational polynomials or something < 1265749289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, "aocp"? did you mean "taocp"? < 1265749295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've heard aocp more < 1265749298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used to call it taocp < 1265749312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call it The Art of Computer Programming. < 1265749378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, aocp took me a few seconds to figure out what it meant. And only managed it because Knuth was mentioned in there < 1265749379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy < 1265749406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i've used taocp and being told it's usually called aocp. < 1265749411 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :been < 1265749422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I never heard aocp before. Often heard taocp though < 1265749451 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well fuck < 1265749470 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, there are strict supersets of even algebraic numbers that are countably infinite (and those sets contain infinite number of numbers that are not algebraic). < 1265749490 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable reals are countable too < 1265749492 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: no that's not true < 1265749513 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that set is equivalent wrt all first order theorems, I think (?) < 1265749514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just take say pi, and have a countable superset that does not contain an infinite number of numbers that are not algebraic < 1265749517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, googling: taocp gives relevant hits. aocp doesn't give any relevant hits < 1265749519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if you want to to be a field... < 1265749527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only checked first result page for each < 1265749545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Sure, sure; G"odel numbering of programs to compute them. < 1265749550 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Going over that Turing degree page, I do believe it was "a mapping computable by TM" (Turing-reducible) now. < 1265749553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what was that? < 1265749553 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: okay, then maybe whoever told me to say aocp was a weird-ass weirdo. < 1265749557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, "o ? < 1265749570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it looked like that here < 1265749587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: My attempt to type an umlaut. And didn't compose. < 1265749612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also you don't need to compose, it has it's own letter in unicode < 1265749618 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, any field that is countably infinite and is strict superfield of algebraic numbers has infinite amount of numbers that are not algebraic. < 1265749627 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The compose *key*. < 1265749629 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: sure < 1265749640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh < 1265749650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, try: ö < 1265749652 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's obvious really, you can just take all its integer multiples or something < 1265749655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type it and an appropriate sequence and it generates Unicode. < 1265749656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any sane keyboard layout has it < 1265749657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1265749665 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if one of them was an algebraic number, then the original would've been too < 1265749668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: US-QWERTY doesn't. < 1265749676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I know what compose is, I have it on my menu key < 1265749680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I said sane < 1265749685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't even have altgr... < 1265749694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got compose on the Win key. < 1265749706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, don't mess with my super! < 1265749713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: UNIX can treat the right AltGr just fine. < 1265749721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes < 1265749721 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Right Alt as AltGR. < 1265749763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting btw, tell me if you find a compose for ö < 1265749775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found it < 1265749777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"o < 1265749781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, just reverse the order of them < 1265749783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it works < 1265749788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in o" < 1265749805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I just didn't realise that my compose key doesn't work at all. :P < 1265749816 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take some TC language, add true real number datatype, infinite sum operator and polynomial root operator to it and one can compute all manners of numbers. < 1265749821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? well then it isn't mapped there any more I guess ;P < 1265749830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. < 1265749858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do like the idea of "infinite sum operator" < 1265749872 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you could just have the "limit" keyword < 1265749878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, sounds like a CAS? < 1265749912 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just polynomial root operator plus fixed constants can be used to compute any algebraic number. Infinite sum operator can compute e, pi and those, etc... < 1265749935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: you are joking right? < 1265749940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, Taylor series? < 1265749949 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite sum operator? < 1265749959 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't beleive we've met < 1265749987 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also obviously an infinite sum operator can compute also the algebraic numbers, you don't need the polynomial root operator < 1265749990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it makes perfect sense. It is just that it would be impossible to run any program in it I think < 1265750004 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also does it take an infinite amount of rationals and sum them or what? < 1265750006 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e = infinite_sum(1/n!,n=0...), pi = sqrt(6 * infinite_sum(1/n^2,n=1...)) < 1265750019 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi = sqrt(2) < 1265750023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: so it takes as input what exactly? < 1265750047 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wished this was all obvious to me < 1265750049 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: One-argument function and lower bound. < 1265750056 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one argument? < 1265750061 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems useful < 1265750061 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's that argument < 1265750068 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1265750076 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinite set? < 1265750077 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: lower bound, lower bound + 1, ... < 1265750090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, just use Σ and put a ∞ on top < 1265750098 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1265750105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idgi < 1265750109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you take more sophisticated operations as primitives, you can consider more sophisticated sets computable. Surprise! :) < 1265750147 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But one never reaches reals... < 1265750148 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I think we have to argue about what operations are "obviously" the most primitive. < 1265750154 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: why do you need infinite sums, why not just an operator that takes a cauchy sequence of rationals and returns the corresponding real? < 1265750196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1265750230 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e = infinite_sum(1/n!,n=0...) <<< clearly the sum takes, here, an infinite amount of inputs, i have no idea what you mean by "lower bound, lower bound + 1, ..." < 1265750241 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, or an infinite set anyway < 1265750284 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Lower bound is 0 there. < 1265750311 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lower bound for e? < 1265750317 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 2 < 1265750338 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you have lower bound + 1, ..., so... you'll have 1 in there, then 2, 3, ...? < 1265750353 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8... < 1265750369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where exactly, i don't think you're being very clear < 1265750397 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhh < 1265750398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while (true) n := n + 1 ??? < 1265750402 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so < 1265750424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean it takes a lower bound, and a function, then takes the infinite sum of f(lower bound), f(lower bound + 1), ...? < 1265750433 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhhhh < 1265750453 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ilari: oklopol: One-argument function and lower bound." <<< totally misinterpreted this, sorry < 1265750488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, basically you just give it an infinite set of rationals, and it returns the corresponding real < 1265750505 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but obviously you still get exactly the computable reals, because you have to express the set somehow < 1265750512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in your case with a function < 1265750662 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't see how the sum actually helps with anything, why not just give it a set of rationals and take their limit, or alternatively just give a function that returns one by one the digits of the real. < 1265750866 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Statistics fun: Generate random numbers [0,1). Then map them by x -> 1/(1-x)². Calculate approximate expectation value. Heh, heh... < 1265751571 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complexity theory took the "-complete" terminology from computability theory and reused it for "NP-complete". A problem p is NP-complete iff every other problem in NP can be mapped to p by a polynomial-time algorithm. This comes from: A language L is Turing-complete (=RE-complete) iff every other language in RE can be mapped to L by a Turing machine. < 1265751629 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So! < 1265751647 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this means it is *not* enough to just say "There, I've coded a TM in my language, my language is TC." < 1265751666 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari the expected value is divergent? < 1265751673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just guessing < 1265751676 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm not sure. < 1265751761 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: The expectation value is "infinite". < 1265751769 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would be interested to hear what ais523 has to say about all this. < 1265751778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: haven't been paying attention < 1265751780 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :summary? < 1265751827 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a language Turing-complete if I can only write one program in that language *but* that program is an interpreter for a different Turing-complete language? < 1265751831 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1265751838 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know statistics :P < 1265751848 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whichs sucks because I went to classes for it.. < 1265751869 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Some distributions are extremely ill-behaved. < 1265751906 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I smell a HQ9+ dialect < 1265751922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yes, I think < 1265752167 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Then what would you call the property "I can map any Turing-machine to a (meaningfully different) program in this language"? < 1265752190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, rather than program + input, like TCness requires < 1265752214 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Things that can go wrong in statistics (#N+1, etc...): Assuming distribution to be normal when its not. Using formulas made for normal distribution with power laws, etc... < 1265752286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm not sure that there is a name < 1265752290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's an interesting property < 1265752478 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I've been trying to recall my studies in computability, and the definition of Turing-complete used in recursive function theory, and it sounds more like it's not literally Turing-complete. The ability to consider the input seems like a bit of a relaxation of the definition. Of course, I doubt I'm recalling it all accurately. < 1265752503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I had a row with some of the world's best mathematicians on the subject as to this, and didn't really come to a conclusion < 1265752528 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed :) < 1265752571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can put bounds on "definitely TC" and "definitely not TC", but there's a grey area < 1265752610 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I think I have a "fixed" version of Burro, and I think it is TC (or rather -- that I can code up arbitrary Turing machines in it :) ) < 1265752647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1265752655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "property 2" does imply TC -- if I can map an arbitrary TM into a language, that language must contain at least one UTM < 1265752665 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265752671 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"property 2" is a terrible name though < 1265752704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a kind-of ring to it < 1265752711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Where do you live?" "Compound 3, property 2." < 1265753279 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oddball brainfuck derivates: IP space is 3x3x3xN tube. Placeable operators include set IP direction (uncoditional and conditional on current cell being nonzero). Crossing to middle does direction-dependent one of the 6 BF basic operations. < 1265753327 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265753609 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tubes are cool. < 1265753882 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tubes lament < 1265753960 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265754166 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265754465 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265754808 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265756953 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265757574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what is the cardinality of Q but with all the roots for each one appended. I guess it wouldn't be aleph_0 any more? < 1265757596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cardinality of the set of algebraic numbers is still aleph_0, if that's what you mean < 1265757615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are only a countable number of polynomials, and a finite number of roots of each < 1265757624 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said "all the roots" though < 1265757626 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*polynomials over the rationals < 1265757631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot of roots! < 1265757652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um the algebraic numbers _are_ all the roots of rational polynomials < 1265757660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially by definition < 1265757969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: Then what would you call the property "I can map any Turing-machine to a (meaningfully different) program in this language"? < 1265758018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were discussing the concept of output-completeness in relation to quines once. i think this would be a similar concept of input-completeness (or IO, if the TM had output) < 1265758052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically both would have to do with not having to translate IO < 1265758087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i don't recall those terms were official though, we may have just made them up on the spot) < 1265758150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course given that TMs don't all have the same tape alphabet, it's still a bit wishy-washy to say you need no translation. although of course 2 letters is enough for a UTM < 1265758164 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think you're talking about something largely different. < 1265758177 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I write a BF interpreter in Haskell? (Yes, I know there is one already, but this is for my own education) < 1265758184 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alphabet doesn't enter into this problem at all that I can tell. < 1265758214 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: um in that case i don't know what you mean < 1265758259 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe you mean that the program and input must be translated _separately_? < 1265758271 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I have a language, L. I can only write one program in L. *But* that program is an interpreter for ((insert your favorite Turing-complete language)). < 1265758271 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember, TMs take input on their tape, in their alphabet < 1265758279 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Is L Turing-complete? < 1265758312 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write a computable reduction from any TM with input to an L program with input. < 1265758330 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but scratch "input" from your statement, and you can't < 1265758354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are TC concepts with no input at all < 1265758372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to include input in the whole, otherwise TC makes no sense < 1265758387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a lambda calculus computation has no input < 1265758399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a reduction of a term < 1265758434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, is it a function? What is its domain? < 1265758450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what is a function? < 1265758462 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mapping from one set to another? < 1265758479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er ambiguous question < 1265758491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*um what are you asking whether is a function < 1265758494 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. < 1265758501 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is your lambda term a function? < 1265758530 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lambda term is a string, at least that's one way of modeling them < 1265758546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: A "lambda term" is one way of *defining* a function. < 1265758560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, defining what "function" means. < 1265758582 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK. What is the domain of the function defined by a lambda term? < 1265758589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i think that confuses things even more < 1265758593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ignore pikhq < 1265758598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. < 1265758617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Set of functions to set of functions? :P < 1265758620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. < 1265758625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lambda function is a _symbolic_ term. that it can be interpreted as a function is irrelevant to the TC-ness of LC < 1265758627 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Carry on, Oerjan. < 1265758674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lambda term can be reduced using the alpha, beta, and if you want eta reductions < 1265758701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can ask whether this reduction can ever reach a given term, such as \x y -> x < 1265758716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a common implementation of a boolean value) < 1265758748 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One sec. < 1265758763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized you never gave me a direct answer. Is L Turing-complete? < 1265758773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that question is enough to make LC TC, because you can encode any turing machine computation (with yes/no answer) into the question of whether an LC term reduces to \x y -> x or \x y -> y < 1265758778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i think so < 1265758864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the record, I'm leaning towards: I don't think it is. < 1265758918 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm all confused about lambda terms, and I don't know where to begin explaining why, though. < 1265758969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i've been using haskell notation for the lambda terms btw) < 1265759015 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't dispute that LC is TC, but how can a single lambda term be TC? To "encode the input into the term:" is a bit of a dodge, because now we're talking about a set of terms. < 1265759061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't say a single lambda term was TC < 1265759081 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you said "but there are TC concepts with no input at all" -- what should I make of that? < 1265759106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: there are < 1265759113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a program that runs all turing machines in parallel < 1265759117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and report when each one halts < 1265759122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a UTM even without input < 1265759126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*and reports < 1265759138 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1265759195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i was just presenting LC as an example of a TC concept without input < 1265759213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, without input distinct from the program < 1265759288 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, that's where I'm starting to take exception. I think making that distinct between input and program is critical. Lambda calculus itself, for example, takes an "input" (a term to be reduced). If it didn't, it wouldn't be lamdba calculus. < 1265759288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course lambda calculus makes it easy to encode program and input as two separate terms and apply one to the other, but that's not fundamental < 1265759316 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah but L takes an input: a program + that program's input < 1265759351 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. But L *requires* certain inputs to do certain things. Lambda terms, TMs, etc don't. < 1265759377 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A TM can overwrite all of the input given to it with "hardcoded" stuff of its own choosing. L can't. < 1265759395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, L programs can't. < 1265759398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing i am saying is that for TC-ness it is wrong to distinguish a part of input that is called the "program" < 1265759400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only one, and it can't. < 1265759493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's just because TMs are imperative with mutability. in fact for certain purposes (e.g. space use analysis) it is common to give the TM its initial input on a separate, read-only tape < 1265759497 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh obviously RE-complete has a good definition. it's just that isn't a decent definition for turing-completeness < 1265759550 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'k, I'm officially completely lost. < 1265759616 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Why not? < 1265759682 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What does the "that" in "that's just because..." refer to? < 1265759726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that TMs can overwrite things - this is irrelevant to what they can _compute_ < 1265759765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just mechanics. < 1265759769 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: My point was that there are TM's that act independent of their input. Overwriting it was just one example. They could also ignore it. < 1265759798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure but a TM that ignores its input is trivial, computationally < 1265759841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computational content of a TM is its function from input tapes to final state, and possibly output tape < 1265759869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: because some people want more complex starting patterns than finite strings < 1265759880 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess no other reason < 1265759889 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for recursion theoretical purposes < 1265759919 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Fair enough, I suppose. I'll get back to you on that b/c I can only keep track of one discussion at a time :) < 1265759928 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO stuff is obviously another issue, but we can just ignore that completely i guess < 1265759940 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or say it's part of the program < 1265759942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1265760033 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: If a TM that ignores its input is "computationally trivial", are all lambda terms "computationally trivial" as well? < 1265760064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: to be honest i don't know that i've ever seen a clear and unambiguous definition of turing-completeness once you go beyond languages of strings. the wikipedia article is certainly not one. < 1265760103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Turing-equivalent with a Turing machine? < 1265760108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but based on other subjects i've read, i.e. complexity theory, my intuition says it is all about _reductions_ from one notion of computation to another < 1265760109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The Wikipedia page on Turing degrees is a bit better. < 1265760139 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(P and Q are said to be Turing-equivalent if one can simulate P with Q and Q with P.) < 1265760176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but that sentence completely ignores the very I/O question which in my view is the reason for the confusing discussion i and cpressey are now having < 1265760194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not a _mathematical_ definition < 1265760196 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I quite agree. But the literature on reductions doesn't seem to say what to do with input. I'm sure I can map every TM to (some L program, some input). I'm equally sure I can't map every TM to (some L program). < 1265760226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Clearly one can simply consider input and output as two one-way tapes. Help at all? < 1265760280 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/map/find a TM which maps/ (Turing-reduction) < 1265760283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the thing is that most things you are reducing, such as NP-complete problems, don't have a program part. you are reducing input to input < 1265760304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a graph to a boolean expression < 1265760421 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for hamiltonian circuit -> SAT, e.g.) < 1265760431 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but from what I know, the "-complete" in "NP-complete" was adapted from the "-complete" in "Turing-complete" (polytime reductions instead of Turing reductions.) < 1265760445 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway -- for the sake of argument say L is Turing-complete < 1265760463 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the original question you answered is put into context < 1265760466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and the RE theory simplifies everything to the bone by only using sets of _integers_ < 1265760483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ais523: Then what would you call the property "I can map any Turing-machine to a (meaningfully different) program in this language"? < 1265760515 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265760519 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Again, I don't care too much about encoding -- unless you think there's something critical about it < 1265760586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well it's critical for quines, which is where my first comment took inspiration. but ok, as long as program and input are encoded separately it doesn't matter for this discussion. < 1265760598 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That property is a property L doesn't have, and isn't necessary for TC (if L is TC), but a lot of languages DO have. And it doesn't seem to have a name, beyond it's working title "property 2" < 1265760647 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah i just remembered. look at the wiki's Narcissist page. < 1265760655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does meaningfully different mean? < 1265760663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a notion dual to quine, with input instead < 1265760686 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: accepts only itself? < 1265760692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Well, different beyond simply renaming variable names or something trivial like that. Not a very well defined condition, I agree. < 1265760720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah still just a matter of cardinalities, in mathematical terms < 1265760746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and then i can ask you, is your property essential for the _existence_ of narcissists, like the "output-complete" idea is for the existence of quines? < 1265760776 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hm. < 1265760779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(guaranteed existence from fundamental concepts, that is) < 1265760782 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1265760800 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I have no idea right now. < 1265760824 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is too complicated, let's talk about flowers < 1265760834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i know even less about those < 1265760856 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my favourite is Cauliflower. < 1265760897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you flow, are you a flower? < 1265760906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: did you know that is the same species as brussels sprouts? < 1265760912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1265760935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are both called "kaali" in finnish < 1265760936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that ducks were the same species as geese? < 1265760966 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: In my head, fluttering half-memories of the "every TC language has a quine" proof... are you suggesting "Every property 2 [sigh] language has a narcissist" as a kind of dual to it? < 1265761069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1265761085 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it sounds likely. < 1265761093 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i've thought much about it, it was just a spur of the moment idea < 1265761104 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brain... melting... < 1265761137 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that "every TC language has a quine" is not precisely correct, which is why we invented the notion of output-completeness in that discussion. < 1265761152 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1265761202 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there is that fixpoint thing going on. There would be a fixpoint "the other way". Since all TMs can be mapped to this language, there must be one program that maps to a Narcissist. Something like that. < 1265761283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you it's not very different from a quine in practice, come to think of it. you just slap an == input instead of a print on your program self-construction string. < 1265761323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course this if you are in a language which has both sensible input and output < 1265761373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/instead of a/inside of the/ < 1265761419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1265761468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rereads the article - oh it was your idea < 1265761560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see there's something called a "selfinterp" on Madore's page, but it looks to be a slightly different concept. < 1265761675 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I have to be off, with head spinning. < 1265761680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1265761690 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html < 1265761698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1265761715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html#sec_selfint < 1265761794 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugggh < 1265761801 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265761804 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later, folks. < 1265761807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1265761812 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265762338 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so who's good at math < 1265762342 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've a math question < 1265762350 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of math < 1265762353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly math < 1265762376 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose you have a bunch of opponents < 1265762387 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them has probability P of winning against a random other opponent < 1265762391 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another one has probability Q < 1265762403 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a guess about how they would do against each other! < 1265762417 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like untransitive dice? < 1265762431 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1265762456 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes sense that if P == Q, then the guess ought to be 0.5 < 1265762465 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since we have no other information) < 1265762475 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if P > Q, then the guess should be > 0.5 < 1265762486 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if P == 1 then the guess should of course be 1 < 1265762499 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if P and Q are both 1 then we're kinda screwed < 1265762504 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that cannot happen) < 1265762562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would bet on the one that has a bigger probability for winning against a random opponent. < 1265762578 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1265762591 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right, me too < 1265762597 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the question is that there's say a set of people {P}u{Q}uEveryoneElse, < 1265762601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but can you quantify your guess, other than just 1 or 0? < 1265762626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's the probabilities for P winning against {Q}uEveryoneElse, (and similiar for Q) < 1265762630 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P is 0 or if Q is 1, the guess is 0 < 1265762634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait this is a famous annoying problem, isn't it < 1265762636 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P is 1 or Q is 0, the guess is 1 < 1265762648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P == Q, the guess is 0.5 < 1265762654 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just got this deja vu feeling < 1265762662 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if P is like 1/4 and Q is like 3/4 ? < 1265762677 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: really? I'd like to know < 1265762681 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament well I don't think there is an answer ? < 1265762694 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: there isn't an answer, but you can definitely make a guess! < 1265762698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's just a slight resemblance. i cannot remember what it was anyhow. < 1265762710 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK, the probabilites can't be calculated based on info given... I think its possible that P > Q, but when they go against each other, the one with prob Q wins more than loses... < 1265762718 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, probabilities can't be calculated. < 1265762722 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i keep saying guess. < 1265762750 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose the way to formalize is would be by trying to minimize the differences between our guesses over all opponents, compared to the real probabilities < 1265762784 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only condition for the guess is that it can't use any other information than the values P and Q < 1265762786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed, you could have a bunch of people playing rock/paper/scissors somehow always choosing the same thing < 1265762786 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best guess estimate: P / (P + Q) for that with prob P, Q / (P + Q) for that with prob Q. < 1265762802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still have just about any set of probabilities for the group < 1265762817 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(er, for two members of the group) < 1265762849 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probability is really confusing < 1265762852 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: hm, maybe that's it < 1265762870 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't look right < 1265762876 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g < 1265762877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it adds to 1 :D < 1265762881 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P = 0.2, Q = 0.8 < 1265762892 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then P/(P+Q) is 0.2 < 1265762910 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd expect it to be less < 1265762949 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess one way to approach this is to assume that probabilities actually are transitive. < 1265762958 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but that's not a true < 1265762987 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't even know how to assume that :( < 1265763020 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we make all possible orderings for a set of length n, and for each ordering calculate (the ways for someone who wins p of the matches to win someone who wins q of the matches) / (all such pairs), take average and let n --> infinity < 1265763022 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the average of all probabilities has to be 0.5 i think < 1265763036 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why wouldn't the probability be well-defined? < 1265763100 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you can clearly feel, using your heart, that the limit exists < 1265763133 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it makes sense to model it like this: < 1265763134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the probability could depend greatly on the game played < 1265763140 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our 'random opponent' is the number 1 < 1265763166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, each player's favorite strategy could have really complicated behavior when paired against others < 1265763169 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our known opponents are random numbers chosen from an interval (0,x) such that the probability of the number being larger than 1 is P < 1265763182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but if we assume the orderings are random < 1265763193 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so that x = 1/p) < 1265763218 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the guess is that a random number from (0,1/p) is greather than the one from (0,1/q) < 1265763227 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*greater < 1265763231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the thing is, for a start, two players' chance of winning against each other could be nonlinear in some "skill" < 1265763234 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that makes sense < 1265763276 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the point anyway, if yo uhave a probability doesn't even tell you what's going to happen < 1265763286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i suspect you could get a lot of different functions of p and q dependent on this < 1265763291 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION existential crisis' < 1265763296 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's a best guess. It's a prior. < 1265763298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i assume complete nonlinearity, i assume that for all pairs, it's completely random who wins. < 1265763305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a prior? < 1265763306 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if there is such skill, one would have to model it... < 1265763312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it came from priors < 1265763340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh then it's 0.5 for each pair? but then all the p's and q's are 0.5 too, sorry. < 1265763357 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he meant the probability is random for each pair < 1265763365 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? i'm assuming a finite universe < 1265763369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n players < 1265763381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you are saying p and q are the actual number of games won < 1265763386 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1265763397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ok you are interpreting p and q completely different from me then < 1265763399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount of players they win out of the number of all players < 1265763406 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um P and Q < 1265763413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265763414 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265763422 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer finite things < 1265763424 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a game of chance < 1265763428 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take two players < 1265763433 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not known who wins < 1265763443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the probability of one of them winning is known < 1265763460 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take one player and the probability of him winning against a randomly chosen opponent - that's p < 1265763507 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i am assuming as a mental model that for each pair of players there is a given chance of each player winning (summing to 1 of course) < 1265763525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265763531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and P for a player is simply the average of the chances of winning against each of the others < 1265763531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1265763551 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that actually different from mine? < 1265763568 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1265763569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265763576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... < 1265763577 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree with oerjan. < 1265763580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" i assume that for all < 1265763582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pairs, it's completely random who wins" < 1265763582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265763593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i interpreted that as 0.5 for all pairs < 1265763604 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but once you know they win pn of the matches < 1265763618 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just think of it as them winning with prob p < 1265763624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that means there is no underlying skill difference < 1265763644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so any P and Q has no predictive power < 1265763714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has to be an underlying probability varying between pairs if there is to be any predictive estimate < 1265763729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see a fundamental difference, but if there is one, obviously yours is better < 1265763730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the underlying function is unknown, hm < 1265763730 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1265763735 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course p and q have predictive power < 1265763778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my model, of course p and q have predictive power, because if q is large, then you know that dude is prolly not one of the p dudes player 1 wins < 1265763797 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1265763802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually my way is too simple < 1265763844 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mindboggles at FC++ < 1265763959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i predict this is extremely complicated to do properly, and will not give a fixed result. although it's probably bayesian thinking which i've never properly understood anyhow < 1265763962 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of course p and q have predictive power < 1265763966 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to bet on who wins < 1265763973 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you know p and q < 1265763979 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should bet on whichever's larger < 1265763984 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on average, you will be ahead < 1265763989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1265764027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i was deducing from oklopol's assumption that all pairs were random (i.e. 0.5) < 1265764048 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think by "random" he meant random values for probabilities < 1265764048 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the actual player pairs < 1265764059 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265764075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what the fuck does it matter if the pairs were random if you are actually considering some actual game with, for each pair, a predefined result for the winner < 1265764075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265764101 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are not random in a given game < 1265764112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not _completely_ predefined, it's still a probability for each pair < 1265764113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the probabilities are 1 or 0 there < 1265764125 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, in mine, you have probability 1 or 0 for each pair. < 1265764126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't necessarily win every time < 1265764128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1265764187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm every actual probability distribution is a linear combination of yours... < 1265764227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably that won't help any < 1265764242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing helps, someone start a simulation. < 1265764297 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like how you guys are still talking about this < 1265764305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is stopping now < 1265764317 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i made my guess 20 min ago, i think it's correct < 1265764334 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i'm not even sure how to quantify correct yet < 1265764343 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: have you seen what happens if you put "c" and "not tc" within 10 words of each other on this chan? < 1265764380 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265764402 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C doesn't impose arbitrary limits on the filesystem < 1265764426 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1265764489 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, numerically, my guess is P/2Q < 1265764505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that kinda seems wrong :) < 1265764507 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be over 1 < 1265764510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't it < 1265764517 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it can < 1265764521 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a very good guess < 1265764536 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i need to fix this < 1265764557 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sucks at probs < 1265764578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if we have n people, each making a guess about this problem, and we take two of them, P and Q, ... < 1265765360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265765658 0 :comexbot!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :comex < 1265765895 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265766369 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C isn't a programming language; it's a computer processor control language. You use it to control a computer processor. < 1265766409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i profess to process < 1265767393 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given C# knowledge, how easy/difficult will it be to tutor someone in Java? < 1265767430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: not too hard; learn the syntax differences, and the standard library < 1265767437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all of it, but the bits you want to teach < 1265767452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't much of an attitude difference, except that java sometimes takes correctness over the top < 1265767467 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, presumably this person is taking a class, so they'd have notes.. < 1265767486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: teaching Java's my day job, btw < 1265767486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultimately, your benefit will be from knowing *programming*, not from knowing Java specifically. < 1265767495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: agreed < 1265767504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although knowing the OO attitude helps a lot too for Java < 1265767514 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After the 10 hours of Java tutoring is over, I plan on forgetting everything again < 1265767536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knowing a specific language only is needed if it's something that's a bit "out there" compared with what you're used to. < 1265767548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(going from imperative-land to Lisp or Haskell, for instance) < 1265767567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even that's more "knowing the general paradigm". < 1265768916 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265768969 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265772977 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265774813 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/hvmcpf/candyfloss.mp4 Enjoy some MST3K < 1265774972 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265775012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love me some illegal downloads! < 1265775059 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1265775074 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As illegal downloads go, that's not very illegal, it's just a short clip :P < 1265775194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST A SHORT PRISON STAY, THEN < 1265775415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just as illegal. < 1265775439 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh stop complaining and watch the fekking clip :P < 1265775449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did. < 1265775453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are agents of Satan! < 1265776640 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have terabytes of illegal downloads < 1265776690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how terable < 1265776716 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One person in my UNIX class was convinced that they wouldn't go after him for illegal BitTorrent stuff if, as soon as it went to 100%, he stopped it. < 1265776746 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Which Haskell graphical library should I use? Also, when coding complex programs, does one normally worry about the IO/normal code separation too much? < 1265776786 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: somewhat true < 1265776848 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If by "somewhat" < 1265776851 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean "not" < 1265776989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: "I don't, but you may want to try wxHaskell" and "Normally? It's just natural, pretty much always." < 1265777012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: I just like commenting that it's illegal. < 1265777017 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/wouldn't/less likely to/ < 1265777019 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, thanks < 1265777027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just to note the ridiculousness of it being illegal. < 1265777052 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need to watch that I don't just create and discard an IO object, right? < 1265777072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ... < 1265777078 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265777095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you using unsafePerformIO, and can you make it stop? < 1265777099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265777233 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know what that is. Now I do. Now I feel dirty. < 1265777361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the appropriate reaction. < 1265777614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i _think_ pikhq was hinting at the idea that it is unlikely you'll manage to create and discard an IO object unless you are using that. < 1265777677 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: f x y = x < 1265777691 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's not impossible... < 1265777692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f 1 getLine < 1265777704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but why would you do that? < 1265777721 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why; I'm just making sure that does what I expect (namely, nothing, since it didn't come through main) < 1265777735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265777739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f = const btw < 1265777849 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265777867 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yeah, that does absolutely nothing, and does it well. < 1265777900 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it called const? < 1265777907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant function < 1265778021 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dun get it :( < 1265778045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a constant function is a function that takes the same value at all points < 1265778054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And const creates such a function. < 1265778058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so const 1, say, is a constant function < 1265778058 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265778061 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1265778079 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the typical non-Haskell name for \x y -> x is "K". < 1265778113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K combinator < 1265778130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well of course it's a combinator. < 1265778131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265778497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xkcd :D < 1265778557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265779188 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265779317 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-102-163.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265779496 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't quite get it < 1265779543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Face < 1265779564 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1265779699 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it might be a reference to "it puts the lotion on its skin" even though I don't know waht that means < 1265779725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well neither do i < 1265779842 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads a wikipedia article < 1265779844 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nearly vomits < 1265779856 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265779894 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just say that the character [in Silence of the Lambs] is not a nice person < 1265779899 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jame_Gumb < 1265779946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic (or rather i'll try not to) < 1265780457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finds randall munroe's bug reports - unusual < 1265780464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see blag) < 1265780732 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265781373 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265782017 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265782138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1265782155 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265782268 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1265783415 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265785167 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265785170 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265785602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265786050 0 :zeotrope!~sami@bas3-kitchener06-1096649590.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1265786191 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1265786537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265786544 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265787039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265787877 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265788186 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265788799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265788800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265788965 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265789566 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265789599 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265790529 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265793392 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265794136 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265794560 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265794676 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265795413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265799946 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265800845 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1265800942 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265803103 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265804853 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265805057 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265808324 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265811012 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265811330 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265813245 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265813823 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1265815811 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265816209 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I think I'm going to give up using the term "Turing-complete", since it is woefully ill-defined (except in recursive function theory, where it means something slightly different from "universal".) < 1265816231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay!! < 1265816248 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to call things mu-recursive instead of turing complete, because I'm usually talking about functions < 1265816387 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a whole space inside the intuitive notion of "Turing-complete" that *could* be formalized, but hardly anyone's doing it, and I have no idea why. < 1265816391 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a) Encoding (b) Input composition (c) Halting (d) Initial tape configuration < 1265816479 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265816641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me about (c)? < 1265816668 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I think ais has done a little bit in terms of (a) and (d) hasn't he? with the 110 stuff < 1265816717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aaway elsewherr < 1265816721 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Graa. < 1265816725 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot type. < 1265816758 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais has caused holy wars over (d) :P < 1265816890 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265816956 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265817278 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@dsl-hkibrasgw1-fe27f900-103.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265817282 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265817297 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@dsl-hkibrasgw1-fe27f900-103.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265817680 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: short version about (c): Turing machines halt, Cellular automata don't, so for a CA to simulate a TC you need some way to recognize when it has reached a particular state and you can declare it's halted. < 1265817689 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/TC/TM/ < 1265817706 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines halt ?? < 1265817716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Traditionally, yes. It's how they decide things! < 1265817717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Turing machines can halt. < 1265817742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cellular automata don't, but can be said to "halt" when they come to a stable position. < 1265817804 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generally TMs halt by a designated "halt" state. The same is true of CA, but their halt state may take nonconstant time to recognize. < 1265817816 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Still, you need to be able to recognize that stable position, so from a complexity point of view, you need some sort of predicate that says "has this CA halted?" and I think the complexity of that predicate has to be taken into account when you start making claims about one system being "simpler" than another. < 1265817835 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, the same is true of CA when you're using them to calculate something: They go to a designated "halt" state. It just so happens that they continue on, because that designation is purely human :P < 1265817839 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah inputing encoding for CAs is usually O(n) or worse too < 1265817856 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Right, equivalently, the "halted?" predicate is trivial for TMs. < 1265817863 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup < 1265817887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the "what should the symbol on the next new cell of tape I use be?" function is also trivial for TMs, not so trivial for CAs that rely on pretty patterns throughout space. < 1265817925 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, the statement "Turing-complete" makes no argument about time complexity. So long as it takes non-infinite time to encode and recognize, it's still Turing complete. Or is that exactly what you're complaining about? < 1265817957 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No, I'm taking issue with certain mathematician's claims that their system is "simpler" here :) < 1265817964 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh < 1265817990 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1265817991 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And trying, idly, to formalize all this machinery within the Wonderful World of TC < 1265817993 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Certain mathematicians" who shall remain nameless but obvious :P < 1265817999 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in summary: simpler shmimpler < 1265818032 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :locally nameless :D < 1265818056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :para-nameless < 1265818103 0 :MigoMipo!kvirc@79.138.145.227.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1265818180 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for the record, yesterday's exciting language L was raising the question about (b). < 1265818216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L was a real language?? < 1265818222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thuoght it was arbitrary < 1265818234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a language for the purpose of discussion. < 1265818258 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was calling it L. But I just looked it up and there are apparently at least 3 "real" languages named L. < 1265818262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L_programming_language < 1265818273 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265818302 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my) L would be a good example of a pathological example of a language < 1265818312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is your L? < 1265818317 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry but I missed it yesterday < 1265818341 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265818353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A language limited to implementing a Kibble interpreter. < 1265818355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L is a language in which all programs are illegal except one: an interpreter for <>. < 1265818393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 4 days since last ehird sighting | 2 days since last alise sighting | 203 days since last graue sighting | 14 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265818439 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey oooh hehe that's cool < 1265818464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265818533 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Whether it's "TC" or not seems to depend on what you think about the role of input in determining that. < 1265818548 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1265818581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For every TM, I can come up with (some L program, some input) that simulates that TM. But I can't come up with just (some L program) that simulates the TM. < 1265818585 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad wget doesn't have an --ignore-robots.txt option :P < 1265818601 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1265818604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Grab the source and add it. ;) < 1265818737 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't mirror the logs :( < 1265818748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265818752 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I have my own logs, but that relies on my unreliable connection. < 1265819030 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265819134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265820348 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yrh < 1265820365 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265820393 0 :cheater!~cheater@213.221.89.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265820397 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: If filenames are predictable, call wget in loop? < 1265820442 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Bleh :P < 1265820568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Dates are pretty predictable. ;) < 1265820943 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if P != NP could be proved with a space complexity result, like: NP potentially generates more intermediate data than can possibly be processed in P. < 1265820950 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265820977 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265820992 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, oh god. Here I am complaining about the vagaries of "Turing-completeness", I completely forgot what hell with models of computation they have in complexity theory. < 1265820995 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shudders < 1265821007 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265821599 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, how one proves lower bound for intermediate data generated? < 1265821633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, did you reach any conclusion about the issue with L? < 1265821670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw it discussed in scrollback but the it was quite far too long to read, and intermixed with other discussions < 1265821681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes studying for a test < 1265821783 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Whether L is "Turing-complete" or not seems to depend on what you think about the role of input in determining that. or every TM, I can come up with (some L program, some input) that simulates that TM. But I can't come up with just (some L program) that simulates the TM. I went looking and reached the conclusion that the term "Turing-complete" relies too much on intuition, so I'm going to try to avoid using < 1265821793 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/or/For/ < 1265821806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but not all TC languages have input separate from the program itselfd < 1265821808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :itself* < 1265821815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, that one ais proved < 1265821831 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: depend on how you define TC :) < 1265821835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won some price from wolfram for it < 1265821838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what it was called < 1265821859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes: < 1265821864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ < 1265821898 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I could say such languages are not Turing complete, because their programs don't define functions. < 1265821911 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I *would*, but I *could* :) < 1265821912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but neither do UTMs! < 1265821913 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now fetching logs! < 1265821916 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Muahahahaha < 1265821928 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? a UTM defines a function < 1265821933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265821950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, depends on what exactly you mean by a function here < 1265821957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also, wasn't GOL proved TC? < 1265821965 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: maps some set of inputs to some set of outputs < 1265821974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, what about game of life < 1265821980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is well established to be tc < 1265822004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Please understand, since I just decided that the term "Turing-complete" is not well-defined, I don't think that languages can be proved to be it or not. < 1265822033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then what exactly do we prove when when implement brainfuck or whatever in a given language < 1265822056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bf with infinite tape of course) < 1265822065 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll stick the logs in hg, if it's not too big. < 1265822068 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know anymore :) We prove that brainfuck can be implemented in it, at least... < 1265822070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which it will be :P < 1265822087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and a host of other languages, if those can be implemented in brainfuck < 1265822137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like: a bignum-space befunge98 is able to implement a brainfuck interpreter with infinite tape < 1265822147 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm sure it would be possible to prove it was TC if we could get a definition of TC that wasn't mostly intuitive. It would have to address several things, which I listed previously (encoding, halting, input composition, initial tape contents, maybe others) < 1265822188 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like: I think the term TC can be formalized, but I don't think it has been yet. I think there would probably be multiple formalizations, too. < 1265822200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, able to implement an UTM in. And yes L is TC then. So we need a TC-not-bloody-silly one for practical purposes < 1265822214 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265822225 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reappears mid-conversation. < 1265822228 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: right, or TC needs to be "split up" into a bunch of different properties (some of which imply others) < 1265822236 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the problem with L's reduction that it results in a huge time complexity? < 1265822243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what? < 1265822263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, L is scheme but with restrictions added so it can *only* implement an interpreter for another tc language < 1265822263 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: No, no complexity or encoding issues that I'm aware of. < 1265822267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a specific one < 1265822275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's an input issue. < 1265822280 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265822281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, thus, is L itself TC? < 1265822358 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should maybe put this all on the wiki at some point. < 1265822457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, might be a good idea < 1265822477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, formalising TC might be stuff for a thesis < 1265822525 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure, but what advisor in their right mind would let their student work on it? :) < 1265822611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, none < 1265822902 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265823490 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265823787 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But then, how one proves lower bound for intermediate data generated? <-- If I could answer that, I would be a million dollars richer :) But maybe you could prove all your nondeterministic "threads" would all be working on data that differs a lot from each other's... so much so that you can't compress it into a space that could be processed in P. < 1265823839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they told me that these sorts of counting proofs don't work because they don't relativize. < 1265824037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't mind me, just going slightly nuts with boredom on my current "real" task. < 1265824175 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP=NP? < 1265824179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, trying to prove P!=NP? < 1265824187 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: That's what you think! :) < 1265824200 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not seriously. < 1265824209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't expect so < 1265824286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, while you are at it, please prove or disprove the Riemann hypothesis < 1265824326 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1265824341 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, i'm not cpressey, but i won't show my proof so he has a chance at it, too < 1265824488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : XD < 1265825880 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265827114 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also going unnamed today shall be certain researchers who think Literate Programming was invented to enable separate compilation... < 1265827402 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-232-56.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265827830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, huh? What is that even supposed to mean < 1265828101 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265828135 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265828185 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing, really. < 1265828255 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: co'o rodo < 1265828286 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an alternative, I could have said "Hm, this Python code shows you can program Perl in any language" < 1265828652 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm starting to wonder if I wouldn't prefer "deep magic" that is at least *documented*, over "light magic" that is purely ad-hoc < 1265829015 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265829045 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265829196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is that perl or python criticism? < 1265829233 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Python criticism, I guess. < 1265829243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what specific python thing? < 1265829247 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or criticism about how it's being used. < 1265829331 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite the fact that the language offers you fairly decent classes and objects -- the data is a bunch of values, stuck in dicts, sometimes stuck into other dicts, sometimes with computed keys. < 1265829352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about that __slots__ thing? < 1265829372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course *that* is very ad-hoc < 1265829398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of it's existence, but I've never used it, or even seen it used, yet. < 1265829407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I have seen it used, and I have used it < 1265829462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, on the other hand I have both seen __attribute((regparms)) (or whatever the spelling was, maybe singular?), and used it < 1265829510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes a difference on x86 for cfunge. From something like 0.054 seconds (wall clock with time) to 0.041 seconds. < 1265829545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(average over 30 runs each, first run for each removed for caching handling) < 1265829561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was on mycology, forgot to mention that < 1265829582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was run on a sempron 3300+ (at 2 GHz), with 1.5 GB RAM < 1265829600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes faster on my thinkpad (which has core 2 duo at 2.66 GHz) < 1265829886 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh, the .hg directory for the logs is 37MB. < 1265829898 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I won't be providing a hg-able #esoteric log :P < 1265829938 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn. There goes my business plan. < 1265830079 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265830186 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl, did whoever join as sexygirl153 on 2010-01-20 do that after reading the logs from 2004-01-09? :P < 1265830220 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just my alt name < 1265830316 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But was it on 2004-01-09, before you ever came here? :P < 1265830362 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1265830397 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still the same person < 1265830410 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That means you have the greatest longevity of anybody on this channel excluding lament, so long as you consider longevity to be latest_time - earliest_time < 1265830414 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2004, so long ago < 1265830428 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, to be young again < 1265830432 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265830436 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was on the mailing list long before that :) < 1265830463 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265830483 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's too bad the mailing list died < 1265830575 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :( < 1265830606 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man < 1265830636 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msysgit (Git for Windows) comes with about half of unix < 1265830648 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably msys :P < 1265830715 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265830872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Gregor said yeah < 1265831057 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used Cygwin, but I'd never heard of msys before < 1265831077 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if msys is half of unix, cygwin is an entire unix < 1265831127 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msysgit also has a huge bug in it where 'git status' doesn't work properly < 1265831142 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reports files as being different when their timestamps are different < 1265831153 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: set core.filemode to false? < 1265831178 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :msysgit can't set the executable bit on files, so it reads them back and sees "oh, different mode!" < 1265831198 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it need the executable bit? < 1265831209 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can set the flag to make it ignore file mode differences < 1265831252 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Cygwin essentially is an entire UNIX, y'know. < 1265831254 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think this is about file mode < 1265831259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A very odd one, but hey. < 1265831267 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it actually reports them as being different based on timestamp alone < 1265831267 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265831396 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yah, that's what I said :P < 1265831487 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The logs in the topic don't exactly start from when the channel does. < 1265831526 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My #esoteric logs start at 2002-12-14, for example. < 1265831626 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah at some point whatshisname came in and offered to log us < 1265831631 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatshisname < 1265831644 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i actually mention his name, he'll probably get notified about it < 1265831649 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't remember it anyway < 1265831654 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He who shall not be named. < 1265831659 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I don't suppose you can send me some pre-2004 logs? ^^ < 1265831683 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why not, I gave those to ehird too. < 1265831691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if I have them somewhere downloadable already. < 1265831712 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his name isn't bef, what is it? < 1265831714 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cnf? < 1265831742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure where I have the pre-2002-12-14 logs; these start from when I got irssi running on a sparc box. < 1265831902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some 2003 logs from http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/ < 1265831924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: [2003-01-18 02:49:02] < hcf> lament: would you like clog to log #esoteric? < 1265831988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's about when the "old logs" there start; I only have a few days worth of logs saved before that. I wonder where the even older ones would be. < 1265832059 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, looka there, didn't know those were there. < 1265832070 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The link's on top of the new-logs dir. < 1265832088 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boy, I sure do ignore stuff :P < 1265832131 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hcf < 1265832138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pikhq: yah, that's what I said :P <-- it sounded like you were disputing that msys was half of unix by using cygwin as a parallel < 1265832157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's my pre 2002-12-14 ones... but that didn't help much, since I seem to have joined the channel on Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002. At least lament and dbc were already on-channel at that time. < 1265832179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yeah at some point whatshisname came in and offered to log us <-- the one behind tunes? < 1265832182 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be pretty odd if i weren't on the channel < 1265832184 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1265832193 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i dunno what their relationship is < 1265832199 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I don't suppose you have the logs from the beginning? :P < 1265832204 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265832215 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i even used mIRC then :) < 1265832219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D-8 < 1265832233 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't own a computer < 1265832260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, putting up those logs would be cool however. If not by hg at least as a browsable dir (maybe plaintext searchable too?) < 1265832276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially for the older logs < 1265832293 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, right... I meant what pikhq said < 1265832298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only have logs since 2006 (with a gap too, due to a rm gone bad) < 1265832301 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265832330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 day since last topic change | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265832335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 3 days since last alise sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265832337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1265832337 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but forgot to point out that cygwin was a study in unix teratology < 1265832343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1265832351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can only be correct for 0 days < 1265832366 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on rounding < 1265832367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever it is to be updated it would be to 0 days immediately < 1265832435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 3 days since last alise sighting | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265832466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, what was the change? < 1265832485 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorting < 1265832487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265832495 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in reverse psychological order? < 1265832500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is alise btw? < 1265832503 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now pushing the #esoteric logs to a publicly-accessible repo. < 1265832507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: alise = ehird < 1265832511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265832531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why different ones for that alias and ehird < 1265832544 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ will have the logs eventually. < 1265832545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's always so confusing with multiple-named people; it took me so long to even grok the scarf-ais identity. < 1265832547 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many days since last dbc fractal sighting < 1265832579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, same < 1265832580 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many since last aardappel sighting? < 1265832593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, at least some of them you know change nick all the time < 1265832611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic wasn't it? < 1265832616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever his current nick is < 1265832617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: My logs have some interruptions in them, but the latest dbc fractal in them seems to be from 2005-03-04. < 1265832632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, dbc fractal? < 1265832672 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/05.03.04 < 1265832707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265832729 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm missing the whole of January-March 2008, though; I got disconnected for some reason and forgot to rejoin. < 1265832731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, btw, ever heard about "Heitor Villa-Lobos"? Composer. Some very good music (IMO). < 1265832739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also April 2006. < 1265832758 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might've been more recent dbc fractals during those times. < 1265832798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, worth checking out on youtube (I assume it is there, I have it on CD...): "Bachianas Brasilerias No. 1: I. Introdução (Embolada)" < 1265832809 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265832992 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of Villa-Lobos, yes. < 1265832998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, okay < 1265833067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as usual the cds are missing from musicbrainz, meaning I get no track titles in vlc < 1265833670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's my fault. I stole them. (I like shiny things.) < 1265833790 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just got my Google Buzz thingy, and 3 people are already following me < 1265833825 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two of whom I'm already following, despite not having chosen to do so < 1265833889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google buzz? < 1265833892 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I hide a .. thingy? < 1265833893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck is that? < 1265833903 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265833906 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.com/buzz < 1265833908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, put it under something that is large enough to cover it? < 1265833930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, twitter on stereoids. And in beta. < 1265833940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :steroids* < 1265833958 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to watch SG-1 now < 1265833985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, did my hint for hiding things help? < 1265833993 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265833998 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg push of 37MB = no fun :P < 1265834011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_, strange. Try putting it in the attic then? < 1265834036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, depends < 1265834038 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts writing an Attic plugin for mercurial < 1265834040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of connection? < 1265834049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, heh? < 1265834055 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: CVS joke! < 1265834061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh ffs < 1265834063 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cable, while simultaneously torrenting :P < 1265834070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had almost successfully managed to forget cvs < 1265834072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1265834085 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use only SCCS. < 1265834094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what one is that now again? < 1265834098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some weird one isn't it? < 1265834104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it isn't monotone < 1265834108 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first < 1265834129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, so: sccs -> rcs -> cvs? < 1265834139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that timeline way off? < 1265834174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 's about right. < 1265834192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, interesting. Don't you need a noun before "'s"? < 1265834226 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I speak ... COLLOQUIALLY! < 1265834539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what? I thought it was for OS X only? ;P < 1265834547 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265835198 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265835212 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265835338 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish hg {push,pull} had some kind of status reporting. < 1265835363 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should've used scp to get the first version pushed. < 1265835396 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use git < 1265835413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, like bzr does? < 1265835418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr shows a progress bar < 1265835421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265835444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't remember git showing a progress bar < 1265835445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must be nice. Now if only everything ELSE about bzr wasn't so utterly confusing as to be insufferable. < 1265835456 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither do I :P < 1265835458 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Progress bars are pointless < 1265835467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why? because git doesn't have them? < 1265835467 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :git shows the status numerically < 1265835474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they don't tell me anything < 1265835485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you git fanboys are even worse than mac fanboys < 1265835488 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, showing status at all is the point. < 1265835492 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about darcs? < 1265835498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there is also numerical info < 1265835499 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too often the most time is spent at the last 5% of the progress bar < 1265835502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next to that progress bar < 1265835529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, anyway, just use tcpdump to check what it is doing < 1265835533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1265835542 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So helpful :P < 1265835557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, presumably it is tunnelled through ssl or ssh? < 1265835561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, very helpful < 1265835572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSL, yes. < 1265835586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr you generally tunnel though ssh < 1265835592 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha! < 1265835597 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s done < 1265835602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the bzr+ssh protocol < 1265835615 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/ If you hg clone this, I /will/ kill you :P < 1265835615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is the way you give the "url" to bzr) < 1265835647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about fizzie's old logs? were they merged into there? < 1265835653 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He never gave 'em to me. < 1265835663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, *prod* < 1265835679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, are they merged into a common log file format or such? < 1265835689 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of these are straight off tunes.org < 1265835697 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All right, I'll be nice and won't clone it < 1265835705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, we wouldn't want dupes < 1265835711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'll just hg init and hg pull! < 1265835721 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265835732 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If somebody wants to write a clever log merger, I'll be glad to merge logs into my repo :P < 1265835732 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'll snatch the fetch script < 1265835738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what is dpm() for in that shell script in there? < 1265835745 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Days Per Month < 1265835745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, maybe < 1265835747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265835757 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I wrote stupidly :) < 1265835765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, what about leap years? < 1265835773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are missing out on log files there < 1265835781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265835782 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at what dpm returns for February. < 1265835784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you always try 29 < 1265835786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1265835833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, btw, about leap years see http://europeanhistory.about.com/library/bldyk2.htm < 1265835845 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That fetch script, btw, is intended to be run straight out of cron, at least once a week. < 1265835861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, well, I didn't think it was so important, since my logs have just a couple of weeks of not-very-active talk. But they're at http://zem.fi/~fis/eso/ anyway, if someone wants to understanderate the format. < 1265835866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b < 1265835888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, looks similar to xchat's format? < 1265835913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be irssi < 1265835914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be the irssi default except with YYYY-MM-DD added in the timestamp. < 1265835919 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Luckily, #esoteric didn't exist in 1712 Sweden. < 1265835969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yeah < 1265836013 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure that's "luckily" and not "unfortunately"? Think what sort of world-shaking innovations there would be, had this sort of thing been going on since 1712. < 1265836030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1265836054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, clearly it would have been about esoteric wood carving or something back then < 1265836062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe iron making < 1265836084 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh pfft, like this hasn't been the official hobby of the Illuminati since they landed on this planet in ancient Egypt < 1265836103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1265836336 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee, apparently fizzie was fizzies back then. < 1265836357 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, calamari predates time more than I'd realized. < 1265836371 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "s" suffix was just a temporary thing for the sparc box. < 1265836376 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, dbc is still here too, just never talks. < 1265836407 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much like mtve. < 1265836410 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we go even further back (to 1997 or thereabouts), I used to be "Fizzle", though; and then (briefly) "Fizzie", and then lowercased. < 1265836412 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did absolutely nothing happen from 2002-12-15 to 2003-01-03? :P < 1265836434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, those parts might be in a different log. < 1265836543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: See http://zem.fi/~fis/eso/more-days.log -- but you'd have to splice that into the other files in the correct order for optimum performance. < 1265836628 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there a chatterbot newer than MegaHAL that's F/OSS >_> < 1265836648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was that in #esoteric ? < 1265836650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 1997? < 1265836658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did freenode even exist back then? < 1265836738 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265836749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that was elsewhere. < 1265836757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "optimum performance"? < 1265836764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, when was #esoteric founded? < 1265836786 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ChanServ- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (7 years, 5 weeks, 5 days, 19:48:54 ago) < 1265836839 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling the idea of the channel started from the mailing list talk, but I'm not sure. I think that more-days.log starts from the time I first joined here. < 1265837022 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was discussed on the mailing list, i think someone even created the channel on efnet, but i suggested moving it to openprojects (which later became freenode) < 1265837443 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now training a megahal from #esoteric logs :P < 1265837456 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Deja vu? Yes, I have done this before) < 1265837524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :megahal? < 1265837531 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what abut fungot < 1265837532 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i knew it was a joke < 1265837539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so funny about it? < 1265837546 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are being replaced?? < 1265837557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm just having some giggly fun :P < 1265837574 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's choking on dbc's fractals >_< < 1265837871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ascii frctals? < 1265837872 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265837954 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: See http://codu.org/projects/esotericlogs/hg/index.cgi/file/tip/03.01.21 < 1265838082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very nice < 1265838649 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, that log has a rare exarkun sighting < 1265839954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 55 02:12:04 ah, re befunge, just wrote an interpreter with forth. so our unofficial befunge-interpreters-in-obsolete-but-non-esoteric-languages project now has forth, fortran-77, algol-60, plus few less interesting ones. maybe should do cobol next. < 1265839958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ interesting < 1265839962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have it around still? < 1265839989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also ehird will kill you when he finds out you called forth for "obsolete" < 1265840002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and: did you ever do the cobol one? < 1265840049 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't do cobol; and I guess "obsolete" was not a good word choice there. < 1265840062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I think I still have the forth version. < 1265840084 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not very elegant, though. < 1265840281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 93 or 98? < 1265840306 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93. < 1265840315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265840324 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aggh cobol < 1265840344 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first programming language was cobol < 1265840348 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was not a good choicwe < 1265840361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, my first one was AppleScript < 1265840387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then followed by delphi, then C#, then lots of other (and saner) languages, such as bash, C and what not < 1265840395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang and lisp too < 1265840400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that came quite a bit later) < 1265840424 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think all these are saner than cobol < 1265840426 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not bash < 1265840439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265840442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash is quite sane < 1265840445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it < 1265840455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, I wrote a modular irc bot in it < 1265840460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be connected here currently < 1265840460 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1265840462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as envbot < 1265840466 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's dumb < 1265840469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1265840470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1265840483 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you could have done it in a more sensible language < 1265840490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, ah yes, brainfuck < 1265840495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or intercal < 1265840497 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah exactly < 1265840504 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a networking brainfuck anyway < 1265840515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well befunge has networking < 1265840516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1265840517 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1265840524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge98 that is < 1265840535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, you could hook it up to netcat, socat, gnutls-cli or similar < 1265840552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm, I wonder if I should add a SSL fingerprint, now that freenode supports that < 1265840559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssl that is < 1265840566 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge is more interesting < 1265840588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, also, then you might as well call IOCCC stupid < 1265840633 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not so much that it's stupid, it's just that writing an irc bot in bash is just annoying enough to be painful and just normal enough not to be very interesting < 1265840635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, btw are you new here? Or just an idler? < 1265840637 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno, maybe just me < 1265840639 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idler < 1265840656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it is fun to do it < 1265840685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is connecter as envbot as I said. Try /msg envbot -commands < 1265840687 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose i'm the stupid one here really < 1265840695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, well, didn't say that < 1265840714 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i know i just mean it's a bit silly for me to be criticisng how other people choose to use their time < 1265840725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, but, basically no one else have a exactly the same bot < 1265840737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, eggdrop or supybot? there are loads of them < 1265840741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is quite unique < 1265840744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is open source < 1265840750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well, someone else *might* use it < 1265840751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1265840758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I know at least < 1265840768 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's unique about it? < 1265841074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, compared to? < 1265841082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no one has exactly the same < 1265841092 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1265841118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom_, also it used to have an interface for searching in the package manager on gentoo. Doesn't work any more since I switched distro < 1265841124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not really developing on it any more < 1265841145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have to code a new one for arch linux < 1265841178 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265841883 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265843134 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265843436 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265843615 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265844109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose there's any way to just derive a lazy generator for values of an algebraic data type in Haskell? < 1265844129 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like if I have: data Tree = Leaf | Branch Tree Tree < 1265844175 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something that will give me the list: [Leaf, Branch Leaf Leaf, Branch Leaf (Branch Leaf Leaf), Branch (Branch Leaf Leaf) Leaf, Branch (Branch Leaf Leaf) (Branch Leaf Leaf), ...] < 1265844212 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey yes you can < 1265844215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265844222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no there isn't < 1265844244 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drat. Oh well. < 1265844300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like trees = return Leaf ++ Branch <$> trees <*> trees will not work either < 1265844304 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the list monad is not fair < 1265844338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nicer syntax.. (| Leaf |) ++ (| Branch trees trees |) < 1265844346 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might even have the other one wrong < 1265844442 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265845099 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265845119 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265846063 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265847332 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1265847903 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Haskell intrinsically asymptotically slower than C for two-dimensional cellular automata? < 1265847927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intrinsically? I doubt it. < 1265847944 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically? Likely. < 1265847954 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do some crazy stuff with C. < 1265847987 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like use random-access mutable state :) < 1265847998 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc, lazy data struturse are asymptotically slower than mutable ones < 1265847999 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, crazy! < 1265848000 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1265848007 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc, good thing haskell has mutation :P < 1265848010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that in haskell too you know < 1265848019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: And Haskell allows strict data structures. < 1265848028 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know :) < 1265848029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And mutable ones, too. < 1265848037 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am talking about a well known theorem < 1265848039 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in computing < 1265848042 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not haskell < 1265848056 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so well known that I don't know it's name or who proved it.. < 1265848058 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaguely rings a bell < 1265848060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And GHC will often compile things into direct mutation. < 1265848063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone help me?? < 1265848070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when laziness doesn't change semantics, IIRC) < 1265848079 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nick what's-his-name did a proof that sounds like what you're talking about < 1265848095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nicholas Pippenger < 1265848130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That LISP as a model of computation is slower than Turing machines < 1265848143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, similar, but not quite < 1265848152 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he doesnt have a publications list? grrr < 1265848224 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll see if I can find the paper. Unfortunately, gotta go now. Later. < 1265848227 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265848230 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah I thought this was #haskell < 1265848236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dbc: if by asymptotically slower you mean more than a constant factor, then i don't see why haskell should be that for 2d ca's < 1265848247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, just a bunch of Haskellians in here. < 1265848253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265848281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might need to force some strictness not to get unexpected pauses between things, though < 1265848307 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it isn't? < 1265848320 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1265848328 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't this is #esoteric < 1265848329 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1265848359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1265848637 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he can rightly call himself a Haskeller < 1265848660 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Haskell-foo is somewhat weak < 1265848755 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because jix never talks anymore, I've created virtujix. < 1265848762 0 :virtujix!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265848762 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re == re-hi == hi again. < 1265848775 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Are you a suitable replacement for jix? < 1265848776 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I need a name for i that would be just a replacement table. < 1265848938 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see nobody cares about virtujix :( < 1265848943 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: It's OK, /I/ care. < 1265848943 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You start with a whirl debugger with a normal directory structure is a better form of du (both you in english) and i think i'm an atheist for the macro assembler i'm working on my 1ghz g4 so that sounds ok. < 1265849041 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265849048 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix loll < 1265849054 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1265849067 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to put a ':' < 1265849068 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1265849070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: loll < 1265849070 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I have a 3 liner or so with this thing. < 1265849076 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: tel me a story < 1265849076 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Are you a new story. < 1265849081 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: no < 1265849081 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes but 3gb are in a fast div by 2. < 1265849089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it's so long since jix talked that we've forgotten him < 1265849094 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265849100 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't forgotten! < 1265849611 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Have any new esoteric programming projects? < 1265849612 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I did programming for the problem of using different vcs for different projects. < 1265849628 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Well, that's not particularly esoteric, but what did you come up with? < 1265849628 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: (I have no way to me), we got 1000eur for our robot team, and i think having a normal strategy .. But it wasn't able to compute the gcd of two particles.. Let's assume it can work right from the most esoteric.. Uhm.. < 1265849654 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Did you get lost there? < 1265849655 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I need to fix this! Spambots: all your base are belong to me is the link (i lost it. < 1265849670 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265849696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: What is the gcd of two particles? < 1265849697 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But it has an fpga i used two 1980 shooters as a file has more particles. < 1265849707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods sagely. < 1265849961 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265850423 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265850505 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265850511 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1265851131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/b0hi4/can_haz_reddit_clone_in_lolcode_in_some_amount_of/c0kc0fj < 1265851243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ du -h brain/jix/ brain/gregor/ < 1265851243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11M brain/jix/ < 1265851243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14M brain/gregor/ < 1265851247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And mine's not even done training yet! < 1265851304 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: so what is your opinion about the recent revamp of TC definiton? < 1265851344 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a recent revamp of TC definition? < 1265851374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was _trying_ to figure out if it was a real person or not < 1265851385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was too sneaky, left before I started with the hard questions < 1265851392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought the conclusion was that TC was pretty ill-defined if you look too closely at it < 1265851541 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that he hates WinGHCi < 1265851547 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a tendency to get wonky < 1265851591 0 :virtujix!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265851591 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done: http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck#hello_world.21. < 1265851615 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is crappy BF code common? < 1265851642 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of writing a thing to essentially rewrite those blocks of BF code that only contain the characters <>-+ < 1265851655 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been done many times < 1265851680 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww < 1265851689 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you were referring to virtujix? Or to me? < 1265851694 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/you were/were you/ < 1265851704 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: To you. < 1265851713 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I brought virtujix because fax wanted me to :P < 1265851831 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But has it been done.. in Haskell? < 1265851838 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is slightly insane < 1265851887 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every slightly-optimizing brainfuck compiler does it < 1265851900 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what about outputting to BF code? < 1265851916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i've seen that < 1265851950 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels useless < 1265851955 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265851963 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many tools are there to turn BF code into PSOX-compatible BF code? < 1265851986 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does "PSOX-compatible" mean "Without outputting any \0s"? < 1265852027 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, if you had that plus the PSOX handshake, that would work < 1265852042 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of just escaping everything, though < 1265852070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably difficult if you don't also make them take 2x memory or something. < 1265852086 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had no problem with making them take 2x memory < 1265852146 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265852369 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: Nobody seems to want to talk to you! < 1265852370 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Wildhalcyon: i talk about plangebäude and plangruppen-bezeichnungen without telling me what the hell plangebäude are? < 1265852382 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix, do you love me? < 1265852382 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Ihope: i hate you. < 1265852429 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch! < 1265852441 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1265852607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: in any case haskell _should_ be excellent for doing such a thing if you choose to do it < 1265852767 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't sure how he'd make a bidirectional list < 1265852788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need one < 1265852803 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you absolutely must, you can have two lists and shuffle elements from one to the other < 1265852836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use two lists, one for the part previous and one for the part after (this is known as a _zipper_ of lists) < 1265852978 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I think http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Zipper may be exactly what I need < 1265852984 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: I haven't started writing any of this yet < 1265853047 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data BFCmd = BFAlter Integer | BFMove Integer | BFIn | BFOut | BFLoop [BFCmd] | BFComment String < 1265853056 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq wrote something similar elsewhere < 1265853070 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except without the BFComment < 1265853083 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And just plain BFAdd | BFSub etc < 1265853121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1265853186 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should use Integral instead of Integer < 1265853276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: It was a single IRC line, whaddya expect? < 1265853309 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, should show actually turn a BFCmd into something like BFAdd, or just + < 1265853342 0 :virtujix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265853354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtujix: え〜と〜……日本語を話せるか。 < 1265853368 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Good timing :P < 1265853375 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Curses. < 1265853377 0 :virtugor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265853378 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, for [], i still need to go with greetings, personified globular iron construct orbiting sol!\r. < 1265853386 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1265853388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: え〜と〜……日本語を話せるか。 < 1265853388 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've converted a myvu crystal. < 1265853389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What an entrance. < 1265853426 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Tell me about pikhq. < 1265853427 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Pikhq: why are you doing on #esoteric or with you, but you also have a clue why it's fekky. < 1265853430 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you rarely want to redefine show < 1265853438 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's supposed to produce valid Haskell < 1265853443 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1265853447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Tell me about Gregor. < 1265853448 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: and nobody will indulge themselves in the blood out of you. < 1265853468 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that sounds like something I'd say. < 1265853509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to redefine it, you'd probably have it produce bfParse "code" < 1265853764 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265853773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I should use Integral instead of Integer <-- i suspect you are thinking of Int, Integral is a type class (also you probably want Integer) < 1265853808 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The process that's feeding the complete logs into a MegaHAL is only just now through 2005 ... < 1265853816 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I want to be able to use this thing with Ints, when for example the user wants the cell to be restri.. wait < 1265853834 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not using Integer in all cases would mean that large numbers of +'s won't work < 1265853834 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1265853908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1265855170 0 :ozwolverine!~johnny@186.81.109.121 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265855194 0 :ozwolverine!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, check this nice site: http://www.ponleestiloatuvida.com/?opcion=pp&key=VUlEPTQ4NTUmbj1qbw== < 1265855247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool, spammers. < 1265855280 0 :ozwolverine!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265855706 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why was I expecting GHC's C output to be readable? < 1265855721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :madness < 1265855747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hast thou not heard of ye Evil Mangler? < 1265855798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's before the mangler. < 1265855806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265855820 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mangler is done on the assembly. < 1265855834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265855835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1265855838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1265855843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: The Evil Mangler, BTW, removes all C stack usage. < 1265855848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hides in the corner now < 1265855852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among other things. < 1265856804 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265856867 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Run, it's a Java-er! < 1265856880 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Run, it's a Java-er! < 1265856882 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But java is a bf interpreter in a public setting, and talking loudly would annoy people? < 1265856882 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will be tutoring Java soon < 1265856891 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, well put, virtugor. < 1265857090 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265857136 0 :virtugor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265857136 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fizzie: you're welcome. < 1265857141 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265857146 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor is now 100% more annoying. < 1265857169 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it will respond to about 1% of messages even if they don't specifically message it :P < 1265857185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoorah. < 1265857199 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming I didn't miscode it, of course! < 1265857215 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to play with SDL_TFF < 1265857217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you accidentally made it 100% _less_ annoying < 1265857255 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... oops, I did miscode it :P < 1265857296 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265857316 0 :virtugor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265857317 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only difference is whether we are engaged in a chroot, but the pattern of greetings to you personally. < 1265857344 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Now will you be nice and respond randomly and nonsensically to a totally inexplicable assortment of messages? < 1265857348 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I sort of sounds like quite the assortment of messages? < 1265857361 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Yes. Yes you are. < 1265857361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brilliant, Virtugor. < 1265857363 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take that as a "yes" < 1265857364 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No, from that page i would have to look at me unless they know me :p. < 1265857383 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be a "Sorry, please try again" command for these Markov chain bots :P < 1265857387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're doomed. DOOMED. < 1265857531 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The full brain is now 100M :P < 1265857570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which incidentally is quite similar to DOOM < 1265857577 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doomy dooms of doom < 1265857813 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glooomy glooms of gloom :( < 1265857838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit i sucked myself into tvtropes with that phrase < 1265858085 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/SCRMC.jpg < 1265858089 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have a sunset < 1265858117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before i click, is it a doomy one? < 1265858151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1265858196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, good. < 1265858207 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who else needs a virtual person. < 1265858209 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, definitely augur. < 1265858221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did i mention the photo was taken on MARS < 1265858223 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Do you think you would be super, boot a uml every time i mention the photo was taken on mars. < 1265858286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. no you didn't. < 1265858289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well now i did < 1265858313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the red planet has blue sunsets? < 1265858415 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't have a virtual person < 1265858549 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently so! < 1265858910 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION continues to train his virtual augur. < 1265858926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtual gregor, you mean < 1265858934 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a virtual Gregor. < 1265858939 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor: Introduce yourself! < 1265858940 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Please, introduce yourself by filling out this 15-question survey. The answers don't need to read or write arbitrary files, or run code and then myself. < 1265859012 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But can they read and write arbitrary files, if I want them to? MUAHAHA < 1265859188 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugor hasn't interjected randomly yet, but then there haven't been 100 messages yet ... < 1265859447 0 :virtugor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265859477 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yes it did < 1265859485 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so it did :P < 1265859496 0 :virtufive!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265859496 0 :virtufive!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh is that the marking indicates the "mood" of the clause for this sentence ok? Itll demonstrate that theres a single one inch long gigantic dildo and last night, and it still looks like so. < 1265859515 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, great entrance :P < 1265859535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very augurial < 1265859797 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't let it into Sine pls < 1265859819 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I discovered another AW enthusiast < 1265859826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: is that an attempt at reverse psychology? < 1265859846 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, o.O who? < 1265859854 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is e a citizen? < 1265859872 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :name's BigAnon; he's over in ##c++. I don't know what that means, but apparently he needs to lean programming to help moderate something < 1265860020 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1265860302 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5871:273b::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265860727 0 :virtufive!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265860758 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-6-215.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265860792 0 :virtuLORD!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265860792 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For thy name's sake thou wilt hear hi voice, and said to him: master, speak to this people with their heart, and his obstetric hand brought forth thy hand maid speak one word of the acts of simon, and they buried him in jerusalem: whom they killed, hanging him upon the jordan over against the philistines, and i shall have no covering for destruction. < 1265860810 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amen. < 1265860876 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265860877 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1265860905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the smoke you smell is Gregor being hit by lightning btw < 1265860926 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly, some people may consider a bible-based chatbot to be offensive :P < 1265860953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1265861219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: You must let oerjan see the light! < 1265861220 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You must let oerjan see the way of his servants: set on a certain figure of the light: and there fell of israel i have removed him, he is my god, out of which he pitched his tent, in the twentieth year, from the abundance surpasseth all understanding, keep your hearts from this people, who have not put me in this order. < 1265861246 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amen. < 1265861333 0 :doodle77!~roflcopte@user-12ld96f.cable.mindspring.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265861485 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have started a debate in ##C++ about what esoteric means < 1265861507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: did you feed him a copy of the Bible? < 1265861526 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I /might/ have :P < 1265861540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: What sayest thou? < 1265861541 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: And if i be wicked, woe unto me: and now thou sayest to me: thou shalt multiply strength in thy own eye? Hypocrite, cast first the children be led away with the lord said to him: it is thou, o lord, thy people, the children of israel, to play the harlot with stones and pearls, having a golden girdle. < 1265861559 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD, who created evil? < 1265861561 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: And the days of simon, and his servants said to him: when thou wast created, in the multitude of the evil out of impatience or pusillanimity, but out of the council: men, brethren, i know not what evil shall be as the lord their god, and look upon me, because i am fled from before him saying: prophesy: who is the day of my equals in my flesh, why are you fearful? Have you still your heart shall utter perverse things. < 1265861572 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got an idea < 1265861579 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take the holy texts of every major religion < 1265861586 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feed them into a Markov chain bot < 1265861591 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and start a new religion based on the results < 1265861602 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like "thou shalt multiply strength in thy own eye?" < 1265861753 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265861768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sure to include the necronomicon < 1265861817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the OT documents. < 1265861823 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OT documents? < 1265861824 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Documents of wisdom and power of the lord. < 1265861825 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a religion without persecution. < 1265861834 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Operating Thetan. < 1265861849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265861852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Id est, the holy works of Scientology. < 1265861915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That response of virtuLORD was pretty much the best thing ever :P < 1265861922 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265861950 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265861965 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1265862086 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: Tell me about Scientology. < 1265862087 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You know that i release to you the way which now i shall have done as he went up into an angel of the tabernacle of the letter might be crucified. And their hands give ye glory to him, and they that remained of the holy ghost, that he may be honoured by the works of scientology. < 1265862105 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's quite the sentence. < 1265862186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: so you mean scientology is fine as long as you like being crucified? < 1265862188 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: And i called upon me, and to captivity, and thou be afraid to be crucified. < 1265862201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: yeah a bit, i'd say < 1265862202 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Begging will be a reward of leaving all things, and this city a wilderness, and that daniel should be expended for thy brother being impoverished sell himself to the people: i will suffer death, or in a clay ground, between socoth and sartham. < 1265862679 0 :doodle77!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.4/2008111312] < 1265862947 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265863051 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: anything on the subject of the meaning of life? < 1265863053 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Be ye subject therefore to simon peter. And peter remembered the word of the life of the meaning of life? < 1265863093 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: well is it anything to do with god? < 1265863095 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Our fathers have sinned, we have no king before him the chief priests and laity to their home, they will heap evils upon the sea brought them, they passed to the elders of madian, was zambri the son of god? < 1265863180 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Andrew Plotkin has a quote in his signature, from a markov bot trained simultaneously on the Bible and Alice in Wonderland < 1265863212 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just gave some bad advice in ##C++ < 1265863220 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1265863230 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was it, "Use C++"? < 1265863235 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1265863237 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it was to use globals < 1265863250 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, can you please come up with a better answer? < 1265863266 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use templates? < 1265863267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pass it as an argument? < 1265863281 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, aw_event_set() needs a function that takes 0 arguments < 1265863282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't actually know c++ < 1265863303 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Oh. Then yeah, globals :( < 1265863330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no answer with classes or functions returning functions? Although this guy is a beginner, so < 1265863346 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus, best not to overcomplicate this, I guess < 1265863350 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: not if it expects a callback function < 1265863356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which, additionally, should be extern "C") < 1265863364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Rejoice in that. < 1265863385 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, wait, the callback function needs to be extern "C"d? < 1265863401 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: If the library is a C library, which I assume it is < 1265863415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is < 1265863420 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is itself extern "C"'d < 1265863426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then yes, it needs to be extern "C"'d. < 1265863433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ has a different calling convention. < 1265863435 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, then the callback must also be extern "C" < 1265863436 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Where their worm dieth not, and she said: verily, i say to you, which stood in all the things also to be extern "c. < 1265863442 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*may have < 1265863484 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His callback uses a bunch of C++ stuff < 1265863496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's perfectly valid. < 1265863512 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extern "C" only affects the external parts of the function; they can still use C++ features inside < 1265863514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just so long as the callback can be called from C. < 1265863521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: sounds like the problem is that C functions cannot simulate full closures? i recall haskell's ffi implementation requires self-modifying code because of that < 1265863536 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that's the problem < 1265863558 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, want to actually help out in ##C++ ? < 1265863560 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: And aduram, and lachis, and to his friends and neighbours, saying to the help of the city of letters. . .Perhaps so called from c. < 1265863567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: no thanks < 1265863606 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What will happen if extern "C" {} isn't used? < 1265863609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: C functions are implemented using nothing more than a string of machine code that uses a set amount of stack. < 1265863620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Then it's undefined behavior. < 1265863701 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Actually, a strict interpretation of the standard would say that it's ill-formed < 1265863850 0 :Biganon!~Biganon@rps2149.ovh.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265864346 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265864720 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265864823 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : days since last sighting < 1265865465 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underflow now < 1265866052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sideflow < 1265866298 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aroundflow < 1265866895 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :workflow < 1265867475 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265868281 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1265868418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1265868517 0 :Biganon!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265869759 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265870763 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've created the ugliest bash makefile generator known to man. *evil laugh* < 1265870774 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265870850 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate makefiles < 1265870946 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnest part, I think: deps=$(egrep '^#include "' $i | sed -re 's/#include "([^\"]+)"/\1/' | sed -e :a -e '/$/N;s/\r\n/ /;ta'); < 1265870982 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it recursive? < 1265871028 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. single makefile for a nest of directories. < 1265871071 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't generate the whole makefile per se, just the g++ -c listings < 1265871435 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. I should probably replace the second sed with a tr < 1265872442 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265873079 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265873458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1265873774 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265874245 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265874545 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265874713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265874733 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265874919 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265874960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1265875199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1265875200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1265875843 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265876682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265876816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 3 days since last alise sighting | 5 days since last ehird sighting | 15 days since last calamari sighting | 204 days since last graue sighting | 1158 days since last kipple sighting | 2224 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2581 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265878543 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265878618 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265880784 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-102-163.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265884673 0 :MigoMipo!~3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-gadgkxifzfewyiet JOIN :#esoteric < 1265885737 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1265886092 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265887917 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1265888530 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265890528 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1265890978 0 :lifthrasiir!scn0NDhp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265891895 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-10-144.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265892313 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265895449 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265897850 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265898728 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265899231 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265899369 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265902725 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265902959 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for when MissPiggy comes back: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=244798 < 1265903235 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265903730 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2110 < 1265903731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHA < 1265903754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do you have actual access to that? < 1265903864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incase anyone _doesnt_ have acm access: http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Pure%20versus%20Impure%20Lisp%20-%20Pippenger.pdf < 1265904047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I used to, but not anymore. I have a saved copy, but I can't access it right now. So -- thanks for that link. < 1265904054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265904063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have access to ACM Portal and JSTOR < 1265904076 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Project Muse, and a bunch of other places as well < 1265904080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ask me for anything < 1265904146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.last.fm/music/Alvin+Lucier/_/I+Am+Sitting+In+A+Room < 1265904909 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im very tempted to listen to this while im tripping < 1265905683 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-49-113.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1265906337 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265906346 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1265906404 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: In case you haven't read the logs -- http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Pure%20versus%20Impure%20Lisp%20-%20Pippenger.pdf < 1265906510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly has a vague recall that pure lisp is still strict, and that there are doubts about the case with laziness < 1265906561 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be < 1265906747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of its basic elements are frank imitations of corresponding elements of < 1265906748 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 􏱋-calculus < 1265906753 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda-calculus < 1265906805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um it's not the first part that is vague, thank you < 1265907169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1265907563 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265907738 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265908455 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *never* thought I would miss Perl < 1265908538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the perl of programming languages < 1265908638 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265910923 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1265911172 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: in cast you were wondering, cpressey found it, i hosted the non-ACM link < 1265911190 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey and I are awesome. oh yes. < 1265911314 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265911429 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265911479 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265911826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, who was that virtujix? A bot? < 1265911841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't have time to read the complete scrollback < 1265912257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1265912367 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265912947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric : RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 4 days since last alise sighting | 6 days since last ehird sighting | 16 days since last calamari sighting | 205 days since last graue sighting | 1159 days since last kipple sighting | 2225 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2582 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1265913609 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265913882 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is starting to agree with Steve Yegge: there is something very, very wrong with Python's culture. I don't agree with him about what's wrong with it. And it only has an indirect effect on the design of the language itself, of course. But still, ... yeeeesh. < 1265913902 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me about it < 1265913931 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION spreads some python hate around < 1265913998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Was that a literal or rhetorical response? < 1265914006 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1265914012 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*headdesk* < 1265914025 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to know more, what do you find wrong with python culture < 1265914062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm still trying to figure out what it is. < 1265914112 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1265914153 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it < 1265914275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was reading the documentation for the pickle module earlier. < 1265914322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something just backwards about how it's written. It's not that I can't read it, it's that it seems to be written with a completely different sense of "what's the most relevant?" than most readers would (I'm guessing) have. < 1265914347 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, have you ever heard of Grice's maxims? About relevance in conversation. It's a bit like it's bending those. < 1265914391 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I noticed that lots of Python documentation has the same feel to it. < 1265914404 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1265914413 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, it could be just me. < 1265914437 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is just you < 1265914463 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Steve Y's theory is that the Python community has no sense of humor (ironic, considering the origin of the name) and is not self-critical. Could be that. < 1265914515 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265914552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even want to get into the *design* of the pickle module... it makes Java's serialization look like fine silk in comparison. < 1265914572 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a lot of people just quote monty python verbatim, and laugh, but that's not really in the spirit of monty python is it < 1265914606 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point. < 1265914649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and then there's the fact that they decided to call it "pickling" instead of some more widely accepted term like "serialization". < 1265914690 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And justify that choice by saying "...to avoid confusion." < 1265914729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think python is a trap to suck newbies away from the path of light < 1265914836 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be. Or maybe it's a plot to get a large number of 0-length files named "__init__.py" onto people's filesystems. < 1265914857 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is even more scary < 1265915042 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's my thought experiment: It's a WYSIWIG WIZARD that takes some options like Syntax: algol, prolog, lisp, ML Execution: strict, lazy, nondetermininstic and so on, maybe some special options too: [-] lambda [-] syntax macros [-] textual macros < 1265915072 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first idea was that when you click 'go' it just produces an interpreter < 1265915087 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's more fun thinking about other things you could produce instead of an interpreter < 1265915115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it that the set of operations is (aside from whatever the special options might do) fixed? < 1265915156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, "WYSIWIG"? What You See Is What I Get? :) < 1265915193 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh geez, WYSIWIG is totally the wrong term -- you're right < 1265915204 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265915226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uses WYSIWIG to take over cpressey's computer. < 1265915251 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265915283 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265915333 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python's lack of semi-colons makes me uneasy - it's like standing at the edge of a cliff with no guard-rail... :-S < 1265915337 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1265915356 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I have autojoin, it just takes a while since the server has to process requests for 11 channels < 1265915363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1265915385 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All is forgiven ;( < 1265915387 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1265915493 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: semicolons are optional, you're free to put them in < 1265915548 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lua's optional semicolons are a bit more worrisome, as there's no offside rule (indentation-based-syntax) in Lua. < 1265915589 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think about my ex. < 1265915682 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhhh he's okay i guess? < 1265915723 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really do mean WYSIWYG, it would be entertaining to see a program I've written switch between syntaxes on-screen. < 1265915769 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or MissPiggy's ex = KermitTheFrog < 1265915770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Could be. Or maybe it's a plot to get a large number of 0-length files named "__init__.py" onto people's filesystems. <-- what would the point of that be for python modules? < 1265915779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you didn't need that module in general < 1265915789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what it is used for actually < 1265915798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It makes the directory a package, so that you can say dir.module < 1265915840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugly approach if you ask me... < 1265915864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265915866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and it can include startup code for the modules in that dir < 1265915889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just do that thing for any directory? < 1265915909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relative the module search path < 1265915912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see what i mean < 1265915932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Like Perl (I think) does? Sure. < 1265915949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you specify foo.bar and your module search path is: /blah:/quux then it would look for /blah/foo/bar.py and /quux/foo/bar.py < 1265915999 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1265915999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, python's approach would be the same plus check "does a file __init_.py exist? < 1265916002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1265916089 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, python's vesion does let you say "import dir" (which will import the __init__.py file in that dir), which makes it easier to turn a module into a package at some later point. < 1265916136 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Overall, I'd much rather have module/package names independent of my filesystem layout though, at least potentially. < 1265916176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so how would it locate packages and modules then? < 1265916204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some kind of configuration file. It could fall back to some regular mapping if the file doesn't specify. < 1265916208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, some special file could be used it you needed init stuff or that thing with import dir < 1265916236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the stupid bit is when you end up with zero length such files < 1265916258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is an easy way to solve that < 1265916264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just add a license boilerplate in it < 1265916267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1265916277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1265916353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may complain about Python, but it's not like it's C++ or SOAP. < 1265916382 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts screaming uncontrollably at the thought of SOAP libraries implemented in C++ < 1265916402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOAP isn't a programming language afaik? < 1265916407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather, some sort of RPC < 1265916428 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://72.249.21.88/nonintersecting/2006/11/15/the-s-stands-for-simple/ < 1265916429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, they would use templates to implement it? < 1265916565 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh I certainly hope they would. Otherwise that beautiful template facility would just be going to waste! < 1265916785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that link, funny, yet depressing < 1265916870 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep :: Person -> IO () < 1265916881 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isTired :: Person -> IO Bool < 1265917064 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would add "realistic" to the list of adjectives. < 1265917573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true < 1265917718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont get the point of soap. < 1265917732 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That means you're sane. < 1265917739 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes. < 1265917749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but like, if i need to transfer data, i'll just use JSON. < 1265917758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if im feeling anti-JSON and roll my own < 1265917771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LISP is a nice enough literal format too. < 1265917790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier to parse than JSON or XML too. < 1265918262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOAP is a Wrapper without a Cause... < 1265918834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wraps cpressey's cause < 1265918990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return augur :: Maybe Person < 1265919028 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafePerformIO $ putStrLn "Soon, I'll only be able to communicate in Haskell" < 1265919162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1265920035 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1265920406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, another thing that is wrong with python: the GIL < 1265920438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : LISP is a nice enough literal format too. <-- did you mean: S-Expressions? < 1265920475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp is the language. When the same kind of thing is used as a data format it is s-expressions < 1265920481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, that is a nice data format < 1265920546 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1265920604 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265920826 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1265920834 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265921069 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Actually, I'm not sure. The GIL is an implementation issue (isn't it?) And one of the nicer things about Python is that it's at least *trying* to separate language from implementation. Not trying hard enough, but at least trying. < 1265921162 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, the GIL is something that sucks about CPython, surely :) < 1265921316 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In FreeBSD they used to have an equivalent thing... they called the Big Giant Lock < 1265921483 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the same for linux's big kernel lock and non-preemptive-ness, but it's supposed to be mostly eliminated now afaik < 1265921531 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265922213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, pretty sure old linux kernel used to have similar issues. Back at 2.2 or so < 1265922293 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265922649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I could just declare my classes to be monkeypatchproof in production somehow, I'd feel a lot better. < 1265922766 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, ... it might be possible to write that. < 1265923038 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want more. I want values to be marked with the amount of computation that was taken to obtain them. Then I could guard against the use of e.g. computed dict keys. < 1265923159 0 :rodgort`!~rodgort@adsl-71-142-225-118.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265923405 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am *this* close to designing my own language. < 1265923415 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your language < 1265923422 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use my wizard if you like < 1265923444 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've designed a bunch already, what's one more? < 1265923449 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My language is the only language that isn't frustratingly stupid, of course! < 1265924077 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, sadly, I think it would be too close to Scheme to justify creating it. And adoption would never reach critical mass, because Scheme Scares People. < 1265924115 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265924239 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1265924495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, as Deewiant says, what's one more? :) < 1265924738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" If I could just declare my classes to be monkeypatchproof in production somehow, I'd feel a lot better." <-- wth does that mean < 1265924772 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: car trip < 1265924781 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Code shouldn't be allowed to monkeypatch my classes. If it tries, something ought to break. < 1265924790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "monkeypatch"? < 1265924793 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except maybe in unit tests < 1265924828 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, "monkeypatch". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_patch < 1265924864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so use a language compiled to machine code. Sure it can still be done there, but would be painful < 1265924886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also make a variant of befunge that forbids it < 1265924888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1265924986 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION might end up monkeypatching getElementById on a school website < 1265925003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, huh? < 1265925012 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's kinda what I'm saying -- if I have to switch to a different language (not that that's practical), I might as well design my own < 1265925027 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, on Chrome, getElementById doesn't seem to be working the way I think it should, and that's causing problems < 1265925047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, submit a bug report? < 1265925049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for chrome < 1265925066 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that would entail making a page that can reproduce the issue < 1265925078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be helpful at least < 1265925256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But I want more. I want values to be marked with the amount of computation that was taken to obtain them. Then I could guard against the use of e.g. computed dict keys. <-- I don't get this < 1265925260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monkey patching is the self-modifying code of the scripting world. Its presence is also just as confounding to bug-hunting. < 1265925265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also __slots__ as I said < 1265925277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I can live without static types, but does EVERYTHING have to be undecidable?? < 1265925296 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: __slots__ will do that? < 1265925301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, at least python parses into a nice AST, with LL(1) even iirc < 1265925319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well not sure what you meant, but if I didn't completely misunderstand you: maybe < 1265925340 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265925353 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I want foo(int) to be able to tell if it was called with: foo(5) or foo(2+3) < 1265925354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, __dict__ isn't used with it at least. So making up a new self.foo on the fly won't work unless __slots__ include a foo < 1265925363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for a variable at least) < 1265925371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how it works for functions < 1265925385 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, you mean __slots__ to guard against monkey patching. I see. < 1265925388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway, anyone could just copy your source file and make some changes, no? < 1265925393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, possibly. Or both < 1265925408 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265925411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean I want foo(int) to be able to tell if it was called with: foo(5) or foo(2+3) <-- compile time transformations? < 1265925414 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't care if they copy it. < 1265925418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume those would be constant folded < 1265925421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the bytecode < 1265925444 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = 3; foo(2 + a), then < 1265925451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also if they do that sort of stuff, they only have themselves to blame < 1265925452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constant folded. < 1265925458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what pikhq said too < 1265925468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it would propagate the constant value of a < 1265925476 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You're thinking in a completely different paradigm -- this isn't library code for other people's use -- this is in-house stuff. < 1265925494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265925515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's some class out there that's monkeypatching my class, and my tool/app/page/whatever is crashing because of it, I can't just blame the author of the other class < 1265925524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yell at them if they screw stuff up? Plus some sort of coding guidelines might help < 1265925588 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I've found culture always changes more slowly than code. I can't just start telling everybody their code sucks. < 1265925610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I encourage it. < 1265925631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most code does, in fact, suck. < 1265925636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And quite horribly, too. < 1265925636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265925685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why academical work is best. That way you don't have to maintain it for that long, and people around you tend to not be *that* stupid. < 1265925852 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, academic work is fantastic that way. It doesn't really have to work, you just have to be able to defend it from questions from people who don't really understand it anyway. < 1265925885 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1265925918 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boooooo < 1265925927 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ROFL < 1265925931 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most code does in fact suck quite hard, but as for telling engineers that that applies to *their* code, I've never been able to figure out the politics of that. < 1265925935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, :D < 1265925951 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got a Google Calender reminder telling me something about "Esome, Baby!" < 1265925955 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a map link < 1265926049 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, it's located in Brooklyn < 1265926062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Esome,+baby!&hl=en < 1265926097 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265926240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, http://github.com/clivecrous/vultures/raw/master/vultures/gamedata/music/lament2.ogg < 1265926399 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Are there any esolangs with non-euclidean IP space topology? < 1265926434 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what < 1265926444 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're right, __slots__ is what I'm looking for. I'll probably get into arguments with other engineers though, about how "inflexible" it makes things. < 1265926459 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: what about C < 1265926462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, heh < 1265926473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I mean about culture :) < 1265926474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, there is also a performance argument for it iirc < 1265926475 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: i realize it's not an esolang, but in what sense is the IP space topology euclidean? < 1265926510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, being stored in object (with an offset) rather than in a dict < 1265926514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something such < 1265926518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better check that up < 1265926522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might misremember < 1265926559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Euclid had much to say about topology < 1265926643 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-euclidian topology meaning space that's not topologically equivalent to euclidean space. < 1265926684 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including such things as toroidial spaces... < 1265926726 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Oh. Well, Befunge, then? < 1265926733 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, befunge... < 1265926760 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But are there esolangs with even more "exotic" IP spaces than Befunge? < 1265926793 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also tend to agree with lament that most "non-esoteric" languages have a highly non-euclidean "space" for IPs. I'm not a mathematician so I can't describe it... < 1265926880 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah, duh, befunge is a good example too < 1265926908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP ?? < 1265926915 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Instruction pointer. < 1265926927 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Program Counter for all you 6502 fans out there < 1265927053 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure 6502 isn't the only one who calls it that; the corresponding register is called PC for Z80 too, for example. < 1265927061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about a möbius (sp?) befunge < 1265927066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be interesting < 1265927095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to extend to 3d: klein befunge < 1265927100 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, simpler discrete spaces can be described by describing each axis: n positions (linear), n positions (360 degree symmetry), n positions (720 degree symmetry), half-infinite, infinite. < 1265927105 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"IP" sometimes stands for IntraProcedural register (i.e. a temp register) < 1265927204 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It starts to get really exotic when space can't be described as cartesian product of those axis types. < 1265927221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, examples? < 1265927252 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Spaces containing "wormhole"-type constructs. < 1265927274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, right now I'm imagining a trefunge with wormholes < 1265927278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be possible < 1265927295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I imagine it could be done with a fingerprint WORM < 1265927299 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, one only needs two dimensions to have wormholes. < 1265927302 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a trefunge with wormholes" sounds like an infested mushroom < 1265927304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, true < 1265927308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, :D < 1265927320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funge-98's ; command could be considered wormholey. < 1265927337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is more like "skip to matching" < 1265927362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather this would mean that touching a given space would dump you somewhere else, possibly going in a different direction < 1265927364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's traversed in no time, so it's not like other instructions. < 1265927379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so is space < 1265927385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: like one other instruction < 1265927400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space is not an instruction. < 1265927418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1265927442 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265927444 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wormhole would take time to transverse, the wormhole has interrior and it is part of space. < 1265927453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265927464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be one cool befunge fingerprint < 1265927476 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wormhole interrior space would be something like linear x 360 degree. < 1265927484 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given how much ; and empty space are alike, it wouldn't feel too wrong to describe ; as just a notation about the 'shape' of the IP space. < 1265927487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(meaning it might be implemented in efunge, but never cfunge) < 1265927495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, couldn't there be wormholes in the wormhole? < 1265927502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could have a non-commutative geometry where going north then south is not guaranteed to put you back where you were. < 1265927512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1265927514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is that non-associative? < 1265927520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those! < 1265927534 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Could be possible. < 1265927545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265927551 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Jumps initiated by ; follow space geometry. < 1265927581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that bending of the funge-space-time slow down ips traveling near the wormhole? < 1265927583 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Or what would happen in current funges if one used ; to jump against space boundary? < 1265927594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as to disrupt the round-robin threading < 1265927607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning they run possibly at a fractional overlap < 1265927643 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They don't slow down. Wormhole space is discretized and IPs move following geometry when inside wormhole. < 1265927644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: But it's not "initiated" by ;, because you don't execute the ; -- instead the IP just moves somehow "past" the locations that contain other instructions, as if by taking some other route. < 1265927661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm. but would it be a sharp edge to the wormhole? < 1265927685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what? sounds like bullshit to me < 1265927707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also, how did you implement it? ;P < 1265927712 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: To quote the spec: "; is truly ethereal; like space, it cannot ever be truly executed, in the sense of it taking up a tick and doing something." < 1265927718 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, it's not an instruction you can execute. < 1265927724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "in the sense that..." < 1265927734 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in the sense that means something. < 1265927741 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Really, what happens if IP hits ; and there isn't another before IP space "edges" are hit? < 1265927753 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: It wraps around to the nearest matching ; < 1265927753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, it wraps around < 1265927759 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which could be itself < 1265927764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1265927768 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. Though so, which means it follows space geometry. < 1265927799 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265927831 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With wormholes, ; would go into wormhole (possibly finding pairing ; inside wormhole). < 1265927832 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you can make a scheme like language, just employ some interesting new concept < 1265927859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1265927860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So (my Befunge is really rusty so bear with me): 11.;.@ would print two 1's, and stop. It should skip right around the ; as if it wasn't there, I think. < 1265927865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I think WORM would be cool < 1265927876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can only think of this with sharp edges < 1265927925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like the smooth bending in towards the hole like in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worm3.jpg < 1265927928 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably easiest way is to have wormhole edge boundaries be closed and of same length. Then the circumference of interrior matches circumference of edge. < 1265927951 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a program contains only one ; (and never modifies space to place another one), it's equivalent to the same program with the ; replaced by a space < 1265927965 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Unfortunately my new concept would only be "design a language which doesn't suck" :) < 1265927980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I really have to disagree about this; I personally think you can still describe ; as a notational device you use to describe the particular non-euclidian behaviour of the IP space, when you have to express it in a discrete 2D matrix. If you have a matching pair of ;s in the code, it means the shape of the space is such that when you move with the right direction, you move directly from one ; to the other. How's that sort of space "euclidean" to you? < 1265927984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, yes, as a cylindrical hole I guess < 1265927997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantised to whole cells < 1265928012 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265928017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would give a limited size cylindrical funge-space inside < 1265928071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Come to think of it, I don't suppose any discrete space is very euclidean.) < 1265928073 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are actually two types of holes, ones that have no internal crossing (IP reverses direction when transversing) and internally crossed holes (IP keeps direction). < 1265928123 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there is length of hole. Smallest possible length is 1, which has no interrior space at all (edges of wormhole are adjacent). < 1265928132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm, as in twisted half a turn? < 1265928156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, wouldn't that be 0? < 1265928177 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I still might do it. Even though it will almost certainly also suck. < 1265928180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 would have one cell worth of length < 1265928244 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k bye < 1265928280 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, circumference of hole interrior would have to match number of configurations that hit hole edge (and not just circumference of edge). < 1265928298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1265928310 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to agree with fizzie's view -- ; are bit like wormholes. But they're not fixed wormholes. Where the IP ends up depends entirely on its delta. < 1265928312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have to follow the quantized form I guess < 1265928337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, not sure how it would work for non-cardinal ips < 1265928352 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Befunge has those too? < 1265928361 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1265928370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, befunge-98 does. You can have a delta of (34,2) or such if you want to < 1265928381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (23,-12) < 1265928389 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-93 doesn't have ; so it's not that relevant here anyway < 1265928393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even (0,0) but that is fairly useless < 1265928429 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Given that those guys view ; as just another instruction, I'd say ; is also not relevant; certainly you can imagine -93 with wormholes. < 1265928455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "those guys"? < 1265928459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You, Ilari. < 1265928464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1265928466 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you can imagine whatever you like, I'm just talking about what's already there. :-P < 1265928488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orthogonal with wormholes for all I care < 1265928503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I can't figure out how a non-cardinal delta would move through a worm hole < 1265928511 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I'm saying is that ; would follow underlying geometry, whatever it is. < 1265928536 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's problem of determining if it even _hit_ a hole... < 1265928536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1265928557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. if it is in it's path, then shouldn't it have done so? < 1265928558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1265928561 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is where the whole idea of "any topology you want" breaks down < 1265928570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means figuring out if it passed it, it might have just touched the edge < 1265928575 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1265928587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means floating point arithmetics or such < 1265928605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it might not even hit a whole number cell afterwards < 1265928655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even a hex-net Befunge would need a completely different set of semantics. < 1265928663 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If one would take non-cardinal directions as quantized line that's traced, then that would enable computing where IP ends up in presence of wormholes. < 1265928670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not COMPLETELY. But pretty different. < 1265928688 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess it would be triangle-net. But whatever. < 1265928739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, would it end up neatly in an integer cell? < 1265928743 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since that would mean that all deltas could be broken down to cardinal IP movements. < 1265928749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe it would < 1265928794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would it really need different rules apart from changing <>^v to something more relevant? < 1265928798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly x too < 1265928807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm, i and o pose a problem < 1265928810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does file format < 1265928817 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how do you do g and p? < 1265928836 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You end up mapping Cartesian coordinates over the thing < 1265928842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, they need to be changed the same way as x < 1265928851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new coordinate system < 1265928881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could figure out "what delta would this cell have starting at the origin" < 1265928906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, see what I mean? < 1265928931 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: kinda, but I think it proves my point that it would be a significant change to the semantics < 1265928942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1265928960 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The smallest possible wormhole would have 1x1 ends. And would have interrior diameter of 4. < 1265928970 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/diameter/circumference/ < 1265928980 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All my ideas for how Funge could be "improved" after 98 were too radical, anyway :) < 1265929088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: All I'm saying is that I like more the point of view where ; is not an instruction that can "follow underlying geometry", but instead a notation about the space the IP moves in. Of course you can get similar results by using a simpler "underlying geometry" -- a discrete 2-dimensional thing with funky wrapping -- and adding "jump" instructions, and I guess you could try some sort of "simplest geometry wins" rule for justifying that the Funge-98 space is n < 1265929089 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ot "exotic" enough, but... well, meh. I doubt this is going anywhere. Must be away. < 1265929196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1265929266 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could the problems with non-cardial IPs solved by making corners correspond to line in interrior space? That would mean that 1x1 hole would have interror circuference of 8... < 1265929326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you map (integer) cartesian coordinates over a hex-grid or so and define x, g, p, and everything else that takes numeric coordinates, using those, I think what you're left with is just the usual sort of Funge-98 except with some special "movement modes" corresponding to the the diagonal-movement-to-neighbor-cells, which you can't even describe using a single (x, y) coordinate pair delta value. < 1265929381 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I agree, and I agree that's a reason to avoid doing that mapping if at all possible. < 1265929414 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265929434 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-232-56.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1265929466 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(G'night.) < 1265929544 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember one proposal that works in any topology. Instead of a delta, you have a path, which is a list of directions. Similar to how arrows work in Hunt the Wumpus. < 1265929573 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265929603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So instead of (3,3), you have ">>>^^^" (or ">>^^>^" or ">>>>^^^^ http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1265965217 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1265965372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265965734 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265965950 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265979805 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-77-3.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1265980365 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1265980461 0 :MissPiggy!~quantum@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1265982127 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265982253 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265982281 0 :cheater!~cheater@213.221.89.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265982712 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265985104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : More precisely, it would demand that wormhole ("level 1 wormhole") that has one end in normal space, also has the other end in normal space, wormhole ("level 2 wormhole) that has one end in level 1 wormhole interror space has the other end also, etc... <- would be sad missing out on the possibility of mixed level ones < 1265985365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: Oh, the PVC trombone. <-- PVC trombone? Is that actually what it sounds like it would be? (can't listen to the music atm, no headphones around, and I'm on the train) < 1265985390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also when wgetting the url times out < 1265985411 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reuploaded to http://codu.org/tmp/pvctrombone.ogg because filebin was being useless. < 1265985426 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Is that actually what it sounds like it would be?" If it sounds like it would be a trombone made of PVC pipe, then yes. < 1265985445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could look something like this: http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPVCTrombone3.jpg < 1265985505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I didn't imagine quite that look < 1265985531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, how do you tune it? < 1265985555 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a trombone, it has a slide. < 1265985565 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPVCTrombone4.jpg Here it is fully extended. < 1265985577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how do you decide the notes on it. I don't see where you drag it out or whatever it is you do < 1265985626 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You play it like a trombone is how :P < 1265985641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm yes it is extended there < 1265985647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this lag is horrible. I blame GSM for it < 1265985651 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bit in the bottom left is the mouthpiece, the pipe in the front is just a handle. < 1265985657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm tethering my phone atm) < 1265985668 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet :P < 1265985689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the pipe that goes up and isn't connected? < 1265985695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so it seems < 1265985703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a T-ish shape at the end < 1265985730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the handle < 1265985733 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, your lag is really bad :P < 1265985737 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like two minutes. < 1265985747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The bit in the bottom left is the mouthpiece, the pipe in the front is just a handle. < 1265985749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what is the pipe that goes up and isn't connected? < 1265985752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 2 second diff < 1265985756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that order < 1265985760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it seems better < 1265985771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mobile indicates it is suddenly on 3G < 1265985774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1265985774 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but I said that a minute ago :P < 1265985785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :said what a minute ago? < 1265985791 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The bit in the bottom left is the mouthpiece, the pipe in the front is just a handle. < 1265985796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1265985802 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were two seconds off for you, but a lot more than that for me :P < 1265985805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the lag seems close to none to my bouncer now < 1265985809 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it does seem to be better now. < 1265985812 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*though < 1265985817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1265985841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a train, it is moving. Would jump between different areas with different connectivity < 1265985909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw: the good thing with living close to a railway station is that that it is close to the station. The bad thing with living close to a railway station is that it is close to the railway station < 1265985959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ^ < 1265985983 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1265986013 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, today's xkcd is bad, even for xkcd. < 1265986047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saw it earlier yeah < 1265986048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horrible < 1265987183 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265987771 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265987798 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1265989373 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265990287 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-7-134.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265991093 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265991109 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265991124 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1265993944 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1265994213 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1265994312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265994580 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1265996548 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265997186 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1265997704 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265997882 0 :augur!~augur@c-76-114-212-110.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265997887 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265998405 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-7-134.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265998532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1265998574 0 :augur!~augur@c-76-114-212-110.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1265998862 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1265999722 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do most reversible esolangs handle interactive I/O? (If at all?) < 1265999752 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they force the user to untype the input and to forget the output < 1265999769 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1265999772 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: my reversible brainfuck treats it as a side-effect outside the world < 1265999794 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that' EULA, huh? < 1265999798 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, state of the realWorld is irrelevant in what's reversible, all that matters is that the effect on the tape is reversible < 1265999820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there was supposed to be a "s in the" in that sentence) < 1265999928 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feather, which is reversiblible, is going to have some sort of I/O-equivalence thing in which unproducing then reproducing output is a NOP, but producing different output tries to erase the output produced so far and produce different output < 1265999932 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some similar trick for input < 1265999949 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's way down the line, I have enough problems trying to prevent infinite recursion in the first place < 1265999988 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: OK. I'm thinking of adding interative I/O to Burro 2, is all, and was wondering. < 1266000021 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's a standard method < 1266000048 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not hard, because it can just delay all I/O operations until the end of the current iteration. If there was an "un-I/O" operation before the iteration ends, well, it doesn't happen. < 1266000171 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you branch conditionally on input, then uninput? < 1266000352 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unbranch (on the same condition) and re-input, and ultimately re-uninput again? I'm more worried now what uninput without a corresponding input means. < 1266000354 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266000398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you can only branch conditionally on input if the input was from the previous loop iteration. So no problem there, I think. < 1266000418 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the start of the loop, you have no idea where your tape values came from anyway. < 1266000575 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An uninput without input can just increment a counter saying "Ignore the next n input operations" < 1266001157 0 :boily!~boily@132.203.170.8 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266001352 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FIreFly < 1266001355 0 :FIreFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1266001625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, there? < 1266001635 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but tired and not really concentrating < 1266001635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, iirc you are on karmic? no? < 1266001640 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I am < 1266001646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, is it reasonably usable/stable yet? < 1266001652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ext4 bug was recently closed < 1266001662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be time to migrate unless there are other huge issues < 1266001672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mostly: the main issue for me is that pulseaudio's ALSA emulation is buggy < 1266001682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, alsa emulation? < 1266001685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what happened here < 1266001691 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally it works, but occasionally it causes processes that use it to consume 100% CPU and be unkillable except with -9 < 1266001696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it using alsa!? < 1266001701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet emulating alsa? < 1266001709 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's using pulse, which emulates alsa for programs that aren't written against pulse < 1266001712 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is almost everything < 1266001718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but the kernel uses alsa? < 1266001722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, brb phone < 1266001836 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266001907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266001919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, did you have that problem in jaunty? < 1266001935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, how many are having the issue (I assume that there is a relevant bug report about this issue?) < 1266001952 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I haven't reported it yet, I must get around to that sometime < 1266001959 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's becoming harder to reproduce as time goes on < 1266001972 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it's always been intermittent, but it seems to happen a lower and lower proportion of the time < 1266001979 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so true < 1266001989 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :birth rates go down all over the developed world < 1266001992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, huh < 1266002006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, how is that related to alsa? < 1266002017 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's becoming harder to reproduce as time goes on < 1266002022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hah < 1266002039 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEER IS EHARD < 1266002075 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah, kipple was last seen 1159 days ago? I'm relatively sure I remember being in here at the same time as them once < 1266002077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, funny, my karmic VM just complained that the virtualbox network was using a .local domain < 1266002083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saying it broke avhi < 1266002089 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how long does that mean I've been here? < 1266002128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 5 days since last alise sighting | 7 days since last ehird sighting | 17 days since last calamari sighting | 206 days since ast graue sighting | 1160 days since last kipple sighting | 2226 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2583 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1266002252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I quite like how the only possible value for the first one is < 1266002254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 0* < 1266002271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possible *valid* value. < 1266002272 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266002273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266002277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes < 1266002279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was given < 1266002285 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't realised that until you pointed it out, how beautifully esoteric < 1266002304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also then I should point out that it was I that added that bit first < 1266002355 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reminds me of the file-accessed timestamp on Windows < 1266002371 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which, at least if you try to view it the usual way (via right-click | properties), involves accessing the file < 1266002473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh? really? < 1266002558 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266002564 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just get the current time < 1266002611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia article on the "TLD" .local: "Despite not being a valid top-level domain in the Internet, considerable DNS traffic exists, querying the local domain in the public Domain Name System.[1] In June 2009, the L root server received more than 400 such queries per second,[2] ranking 4th in DNS traffic of all TLDs behind COM, ARPA, and NET." < 1266002623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's .... weird < 1266002700 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some really buggy DNS servers out there, apparently. < 1266003027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root&key=255 < 1266003032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf too < 1266003044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.dnsbl? < 1266003055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's badly misconfigured < 1266003082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root&key=38 <-- and A6 queries still too < 1266003120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.lan also shows up on the PTR query graph < 1266003129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and .linksys and what not < 1266003138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root&key=12 < 1266003166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wonder tld .belkin is... < 1266003185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, heh there are A queries for the tld .invalid < 1266003190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root&key=1 < 1266003836 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266003873 0 :casmith789!~chris@cpc2-king8-0-0-cust831.perr.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266003899 0 :casmith789!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266004389 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Y29tJw==? That's base64 for "com'" and Y2FcIA==, which seems to be "ca\ "... < 1266004434 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there is Base64 for "org/" as well. < 1266004447 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 'ecuador'? < 1266004467 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266005071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, and .html... < 1266005073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266005075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.html < 1266005097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :,home is funny too < 1266005102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.home* < 1266005112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, the main stats are at http://stats.l.root-servers.org/cgi-bin/dsc-grapher.pl?window=604800&plot=qtype_vs_all_tld&server=L-root < 1266005135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay the NS graph is funny too < 1266005644 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266007056 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And A6 records? Who uses them? < 1266007168 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought A6 was obsoleted by AAAA ("Quad-A") records. < 1266007265 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.249.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266007270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Dispatch 2. < 1266007280 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are here < 1266007282 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!!!!!!!!!!!!! < 1266007288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am that. < 1266007308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :RIP sun.com | 0 days since last topic change | 0 days since last alise sighting | 7 days since last ehird sighting | 17 days since last calamari sighting | 206 days since ast graue sighting | 1160 days since last kipple sighting | 2226 days since last sleon|tuX sighting | 2583 days since last hcf sighting | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1266007309 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise lol I tried to code my expression problem in agda and got bored because it turned out hard < 1266007336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266007345 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi alise! < 1266007349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi. < 1266007350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266007372 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like our topic < 1266007376 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was supposed to remind you of something, but I forgot. On a completely unrelated note, I believe graphs of light can be utilized to facilitate the relocation of certain sentient objects. < 1266007381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hi, scarf. < 1266007382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Any new suck? < 1266007388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not see you last weekend; did you receive my email? < 1266007406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That something was "Get passport photo". < 1266007412 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I know. < 1266007418 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the "unrelated note" < 1266007435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahah. < 1266007436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lawl. < 1266007448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I am ehird, by the way. < 1266007452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*by the < 1266007458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm back to studying Japanese. Whoo. < 1266007465 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ah, and I did get your email < 1266007470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good... < 1266007474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Well. I'm being lazy on it today. XD < 1266007475 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't sure if you were someone I already knew, or not < 1266007487 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have your whole IP memorised, and you've replaced your whois < 1266007505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye... < 1266007509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I thought A6 was obsoleted by AAAA ("Quad-A") records. <-- correct < 1266007512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you know, then, of the situation. < 1266007512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still used it seems < 1266007519 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: trying to fly under the radar? or just fancying a change of name? < 1266007545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just fancied it. Why shouldn't I be allowed to confuse people as to my gender! < 1266007560 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, I manage that pretty effectively when I'm trying to hide it < 1266007571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mother saw a practitioner of law (what, they could be googling) a few days ago. Apparently at first glance their chances of sectioning me are somewhere in the vicinity of nil, but that's not an Official Legal Opinion for a while. < 1266007580 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes you can get a whole channel apologising to you on the assumption that you're actually female and they've just offended you < 1266007602 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I actually started approaching this from a nomic angle < 1266007605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oh, but "alise" is rather overtly feminine and I've been using female pronouns for no particular reason other than havoc, confusion and finally wrecking the English language's gender-pronoun system once and for all < 1266007611 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I love it < 1266007616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: also, that's hardly surprising. you do that to everything :P < 1266007622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: They can, however, make life hell for you. < 1266007632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not if I don't a-t-t to the e-n-d. < 1266007634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See now. < 1266007643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes indeed, AT&T should be a temporary fixture, not an everlasting thing! < 1266007643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a-t-t? < 1266007647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say to all the googlers. Cough. < 1266007652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Concatenate, sir! Concatenate. < 1266007660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1266007687 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depriving people of internet access was ruled to be a human rights violation in France, by the way < 1266007695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas. If they're just bluffing, then yes, there's jack they can do if you deny them such things. < 1266007722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: that's great. I'll just relocate to France and then put myself in the same situation again :) < 1266007743 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, not quite useful enough, I was hoping it would be an EU-wide precedent < 1266007792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I would technically be allowed to the internet, were I to bring my own laptop (although they have no Wi-Fi it could be plugged into Ethernet) or my own 3G connection, but if the former it would be censored, and either way one of the nurses would have to be in the room, monitoring it. < 1266007814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So even if it was EU-wide they'd be obeying the letter and flagellating the spirit to death. < 1266007827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poor precedent-ghasts. < 1266007841 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, having a human there defeats all the usual methods of defeating filters < 1266007855 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not directly, but in a soft-security sort of way < 1266007858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so I guess you can move abroad? < 1266007871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could do that even if they could section me. < 1266007874 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's any way to evade filters steganographically < 1266007878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I move abroad, the UK government cannot touch me. < 1266007889 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being mentally ill isn't even illegal... < 1266007897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not obeying a sectioning is. < 1266007901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is their threat. < 1266007901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266007905 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, nice loophole there < 1266007911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Delivered to me, clearly, personally: attend, or you will be sectioned. < 1266007929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there are two options: put them in a position where they cannot section me - i.e. move; or discover that they cannot section me. < 1266007931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, why not move abroad next weekend or so? < 1266007945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that sounds lovely and easy. < 1266007961 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can't just randomly decide to go abroad permanently, especially given alise's likely resources < 1266007963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not being in the Schengen zone, he needs a passport. < 1266007974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Moving is one of the options being pursued, though. < 1266007986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We moved into Ovington recently, so we have little ties to the location. < 1266007998 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: there's always the third option, of getting the media involved < 1266008001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: He's a European citizen. Makes it easy. < 1266008014 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an incredibly risky operation for all sides of the argument, though < 1266008020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I have considered and rejected that because of the risk. < 1266008024 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1266008036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: My mother is mentally ill (what it is I will not say, at least in public) and this stemmed from her being treated for that. < 1266008051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want the press on your side - at least the press that makes any difference, i.e. the awful press - you need to be spotless. < 1266008053 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I don't want to know the details < 1266008062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, that's almost certainly going to fail. < 1266008064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't want publicity. < 1266008069 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's a great characterisation of the media < 1266008074 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*characterization < 1266008074 0 :tcsavage!~tomcsavag@host86-133-195-53.range86-133.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266008082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Are you not British?! < 1266008085 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason I correct that is not because of some stupid spelling ridiculousness < 1266008086 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a tcsavage? < 1266008091 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you turing complete? < 1266008106 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but because I've been writing in Java recently, and have a huge number of method names ending -ize and class names ending -izer < 1266008109 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not Turing complete < 1266008113 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and wanted to standardise on one spelling < 1266008120 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love < 1266008122 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the one that the library already used < 1266008143 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, there are arguments that -ize is correct in British English too, and that -ise is a neologism < 1266008153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mind what English you use. < 1266008159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I talk in a strange mix of British and American English on the Internet < 1266008160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Omit Us, go ahead. < 1266008163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and occasionally Perl < 1266008165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't really matter. < 1266008187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put in the Us and mostly use -ise because I was brought up that way, but it doesn't really bother me at all either way. < 1266008207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"gray" vs. "grey" is another good one < 1266008210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Not being in the Schengen zone, he needs a passport. <-- err, isn't that basically EU? < 1266008218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you say that UK isn't part of it? < 1266008218 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: minus UK < 1266008218 0 :tcsavage!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't know < 1266008223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, why on earth < 1266008227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: plus some other stuff < 1266008230 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need a passport to leave the UK by plane, at least < 1266008232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because the UK is a major international player < 1266008234 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably Ireland too < 1266008235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we like keeping our distance from the EU < 1266008236 0 :tcsavage!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are humans turing complete? < 1266008241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tcsavage: no infinite memory. < 1266008243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266008244 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could catch a ferry to Northern Island, then walk across the border < 1266008250 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love <-- brilliant < 1266008251 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Northern Ireland < 1266008254 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did I manage that? < 1266008261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But it is convenient, because of the rights we get. < 1266008271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we can get a residence in any EU country, we're allowed there. < 1266008271 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love < 1266008278 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, what's the syntax? < 1266008278 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266008280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just have to go up to them and say, yo, we're here, and that's pretty much it. < 1266008282 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`qdb I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love < 1266008283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: addquote < 1266008283 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266008288 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love < 1266008289 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :128| I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love < 1266008293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Reversi/Othello is a really nice game. < 1266008297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266008300 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we have a quote database here? < 1266008302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the other way doesn't work? < 1266008310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? < 1266008315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: HackEgo's, aye. < 1266008317 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more fun, EU-internal flights you get to avoid customs < 1266008320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Sgeo maintains a text version. < 1266008321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just: < 1266008321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote < 1266008322 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :128| I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love < 1266008328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yar < 1266008335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the schengen agreement is sweet < 1266008342 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see if I can find it < 1266008353 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!swedish I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love < 1266008357 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cun du iferytheeng a Tooreeng mecheene-a cun du, ixcept lufe-a < 1266008360 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love < 1266008362 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cun du iferytheeng a Tooreeng mecheene-a cun du, ixcept lufe-a < 1266008366 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish I can do everything a Turing machine can do, except love. < 1266008367 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cun du iferytheeng a Tooreeng mecheene-a cun du, ixcept lufe-a. \ Bork Bork Bork! < 1266008371 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that algorithm deterministic? < 1266008373 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bork bork bork! :D < 1266008375 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, apparently not < 1266008383 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://209.20.80.194/sgeo/quotes.txt < 1266008389 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bork is trigerred by the dot, scarf < 1266008397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1| I've always wanted to kill someone. >.> < 1266008397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2| I used computational linguistics to kill her. < 1266008400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A story in two quotes. < 1266008417 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, does anyone happen to know of a bz2 implementation in Java that's licenced under a non-insane open source licence (i.e. GPL2 or GPL3 compatible)? < 1266008426 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is no, but it can't hurt to ask < 1266008429 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/7222508/Palestinians-dressed-as-the-Navi-from-the-film-Avatar-stage-a-protest-against-Israels-separation-barrier.html < 1266008437 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you're wondering why, I'm writing the most overengineered ttyrec player ever) < 1266008445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, moving I mean < 1266008456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Moving will work, it's just not as simple as you think. < 1266008457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, as in, an European can come to UK and settle down < 1266008461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1266008462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1266008466 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It updates every 30min or so < 1266008475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, really? It should work both ways to be fair < 1266008475 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: IIRC, yes but they don't get benefits, etc, unless they get a job < 1266008481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, yes < 1266008489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UK basically gets what they want from the EU and ignores the rest, whatever the tabloids say < 1266008493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: politics isn't. < 1266008502 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the UK came off /incredibly/ well from the recent EU treaties < 1266008502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the UK is powerful enough to do it < 1266008519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"125th Barbie: Computer Engineer Barbie" < 1266008521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YESSSSSSSSSSSSS < 1266008525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY AM I SO EXCITED ABOUT THIS? < 1266008527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YESSSSSSSSSSSSS < 1266008532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Interwebs, voting, etc.) < 1266008534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (if you're wondering why, I'm writing the most overengineered ttyrec player ever) <-- why not use JNI? < 1266008537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever it is called < 1266008541 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, my todo list is still on pastebin.ca http://pastebin.ca/1794648 < 1266008542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.barbiemedia.com/admin/uploads/ComputerEngineerBarbie.pdf < 1266008542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to use the native library < 1266008548 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266008557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: do you realise that the kind of people who use ttyrec won't use a Java program? :P < 1266008558 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: since when did all platforms that support Java have a ttyrec library installed by default? < 1266008570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, bz2 library I meant.... < 1266008573 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: empirical evidence contradicts your statement < 1266008574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ttyrec one < 1266008576 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *bz2 < 1266008581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Sample size? < 1266008585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: about 4, tbh < 1266008595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1266008595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Running the .jar is sort-of awkward in many OSes, including mine. Is there a way to get it working like a program < 1266008595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1266008595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : written in some other language? .jnlp is nice for evaluation, but doesn't leave the program installed. < 1266008600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ this is where Java starts giving you hell < 1266008603 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1266008606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possible, but you'll hate life < 1266008613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect you'll give up on Java at some point < 1266008621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is .jnlp? < 1266008626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my solution is to write the program as a jnlp | javac | gcj polyglot < 1266008633 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Java Network Launch Protocol, used by Java Web Start < 1266008637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :àh < 1266008639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah* < 1266008646 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I was a computer engineer < 1266008647 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be doing homework nowish < 1266008648 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason, Sun decided that the standard method of packaging Java programs came free with automatic updates < 1266008651 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't wear that dress < 1266008656 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I have a linux shirt < 1266008659 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is just too much < 1266008664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, what dress? < 1266008669 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.barbiemedia.com/admin/uploads/ComputerEngineerBarbie.pdf < 1266008672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why people should have to trust me in particular to run a program I write, they should just have to trust its source code < 1266008682 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, in practice the two are pretty much identical, but I'm too idealistic to admit that < 1266008692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, wth < 1266008697 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266008698 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266008702 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, alise linked to it < 1266008705 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1266008707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266008713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very wth < 1266008730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: you should package it as a .jar < 1266008744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what, is it *wrong* to promote computer engineering now? :) < 1266008744 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's what I'm doing atm < 1266008749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :barbie does every other career, you know < 1266008753 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm working to remove library dependencies atm < 1266008757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: you write a shell script to find where you are and java -jar it < 1266008761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with -classpath containing all your dependencies < 1266008762 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because I'm hardly using any features of it < 1266008769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have /usr/lib/somethingplay/(stuff)) < 1266008779 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea's to have no dependencies outside the jar itself; this isn't deliberate, it just kind-of happened < 1266008795 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a nice side-note, by default netbeans links in lgpl libraries to your project, but doesn't include their sources < 1266008807 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning it's illegal to distribute the resulting program without chasing their source < 1266008811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, just that is so unrealistic. I mean, there are female CS students at the university I'm at. One of them wore an ubuntu jacket today I noticed. < 1266008824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Barbie, UNREALISTIC?! < 1266008828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and very definitely not *pink* < 1266008842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are girl-chic computer scientists < 1266008843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QUICK, FIND ONE < 1266008854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I mean, it is too pink. That is promoting gender differences or something. < 1266008860 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise : Lady Ada Lovelace < 1266008865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah, haha < 1266008876 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://membres.multimania.fr/bewulf/Russell/2003-06-Ada_Lovelace.jpg < 1266008879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think any feminist would agree that women have the right to wear whatever the hell they like :P < 1266008879 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't be classier < 1266008888 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to QI, which is a UK quiz show based around questions where the obvious answer is false, traditionally blue was for girls and pink for boys, but it swapped somewhere in history < 1266008890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lovelace was sweet. < 1266008941 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She has Leia hair < 1266008970 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen an actual photo of her < 1266008982 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it was in her cancer period so she doesn't look that pretty < 1266008993 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know she had cancer < 1266008994 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266009016 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She died quite young < 1266009019 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like in her 40's < 1266009056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I love QI. < 1266009067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:17:00 Haskell is a language that curries functions < 1266009068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:17:09 Haskell is named for Haskell Curry < 1266009068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:17:15 currying is named for Haskell Curry < 1266009072 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd love QI more if it were easier for me to watch < 1266009074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well they named it Haskell because of Haskell Curry, obviously < 1266009077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Piracy?? < 1266009079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Piracy? < 1266009087 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, preferably no BitTorrent < 1266009093 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, one thing that worries me a lot; the more I use Java, the more I discover similarities to Haskell in it < 1266009096 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! < 1266009099 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YouTube if possible < 1266009099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"(Maybe it is because the TAVSYS file stores string using Baudot?)" --zzo38 < 1266009106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: man up and bittorrent < 1266009109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They named it Hakell after Eddie Haskell from Leave it to Beaver! < 1266009109 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/BigPictures/Lovelace_3.jpeg < 1266009113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: OH < 1266009114 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daguerotype picture :o < 1266009117 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose that's because without using it, you couldn't possibly imagine the languages were remotely similar < 1266009123 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm always under the impression that I'll get caught if I BitTorrent < 1266009125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: I'd curry her function. < 1266009127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: MAN < 1266009128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UP < 1266009129 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They might have even named it Haskell for that reason < 1266009141 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, teaching Java's my day job, so I may as well get at least half-decent at it < 1266009225 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: And what has Java learned so far from you? < 1266009236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266009247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I did *not* come back from that place to experience puns as bad. < 1266009250 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: /me thinks < 1266009289 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that was a pun? < 1266009291 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I blame oerjan and lament for setting the atmosphere < 1266009294 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just got it < 1266009297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION continues thinking < 1266009331 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stops thinking < 1266009331 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have that programmery-thing anymore < 1266009337 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one where you actually write programs < 1266009395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I sort of do, but it's constantly plagued with "this would be so much better in /my/ language". < 1266009402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect it to pick up again soon. < 1266009422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in a C++ class. I'm dealing with C# recently. < 1266009430 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now I'm looking into Haskell again < 1266009436 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That feeling is pretty much a constant < 1266009455 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm getting pretty good at just language-hopping, recently < 1266009475 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the benefit of working on esolangs so much is that when you get the impulse "this would be so much better in feather", you can just ignore it < 1266009557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: I think any feminist would agree that women have the right to wear whatever the hell they like :P <-- true < 1266009558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266009588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, my point was that barbie in general seems... overly pink. Not a varied selection there. < 1266009592 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: men too? < 1266009622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm? Is this some reference to skin colour of Europeans? < 1266009632 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266009633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x.x < 1266009640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because little girls tend to like pink. Call it society or inherent, or whatever you want. < 1266009643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But 's true. < 1266009644 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, would any feminist agree that men have the right to wear whatever the hell they like? < 1266009667 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course not < 1266009670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes, and I think society encourages it. At least it doesn't seem to try to be neutral about it < 1266009681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I have no idea. Ask alise. < 1266009687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess so < 1266009698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not any feminist but all the sane ones. < 1266009704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1266009708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sane feminism nowadays is an alias for someone who supports equality. < 1266009712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266009718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you go further you get, well, S.C.U.M. Manifesto. < 1266009737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm not familiar with that < 1266009740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCUM_Manifesto < 1266009742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles  < 1266009749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh damn you, for once you provide a link! < 1266009758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love you too. < 1266009893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1266009907 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|^^^^^^^^^^^\||_____ < 1266009907 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| STFU |||""'|"""\___ O < 1266009907 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| ______________|||___|__|__|) -|- (@)@)""""""**|(@)(@)**|(@) / \ < 1266009994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat. < 1266009996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..? < 1266010011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't even line up in monospace... < 1266010015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anwhere < 1266010017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anywhere* < 1266010020 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it lines up in proportional to start with < 1266010024 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but messes up towards the end < 1266010040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, eh? well the first | lines up yes < 1266010044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the rest makes no sense < 1266010045 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once saw a massively complex table designed to line up in proportional that used ` and ' for spacing < 1266010053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wtf < 1266010054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1266010062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would only work for a given font < 1266010074 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but most of them have approximately similar metrics < 1266010077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and what was the context of that table? < 1266010085 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was in a forum post on GameFAQs < 1266010126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, approx similar metrics sure, but small differences would result in large differences near the end of the line < 1266010143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they would basically add up in the long run < 1266010145 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, the font size was very small < 1266010156 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sufficiently so that ' was one pixel plus one pixel of spacing < 1266010163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ` was two pixels plus one pixel of spacing < 1266010171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then was the actual text in that table readable? < 1266010188 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266010198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different font size? < 1266010202 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was back in the days before antialiasing was common, and where pixels were large enough to be visible < 1266010208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266010219 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same font size, a typical capital letter was maybe five or six pixels wide < 1266010223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just going to suggest getting a high dpi monitor ;P < 1266010240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, iirc gamefaqs uses monospaces < 1266010250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Forum post". < 1266010253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least it did yesterday when I checked some walkthrough for a game I was stuck in < 1266010253 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for the FAQs; not in the forum posts though < 1266010255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh right < 1266010258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actual GameFAQs thingies are just text files. < 1266010261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have a forum? < 1266010263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266010263 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266010276 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sometimes more informative than the FAQs themselves < 1266010277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw I think it was paper mario for n64) < 1266010284 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's moderated by different people < 1266010294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GameFAQs' forums are interesting, mostly because of LUE lore < 1266010295 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people post rejected FAQs to the forums, and if the mods there like them they get stickied < 1266010299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i've ever read them < 1266010301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, LUE? < 1266010303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just articles *about* them < 1266010307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's COMPLICATED! < 1266010318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sure, but what does it mean? < 1266010324 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have two independent sources of FAQs on the same website < 1266010328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That, that is also complicated. < 1266010330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266010348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266010351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1266010353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, uh, it's a board or was a board or something on GameFAQs. < 1266010358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266010374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life, the Universe, and Everything, and basically you had to have a lot of ... RPG-esque stats to get in there, basically. And then it sprung off into tons of other thing and glorious drama blah blah. < 1266010377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that interesting, I guess. < 1266010398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266010438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does almost every nintendo game contain at least one or two points where you have to do something so non-obvious that there is no way to figure it out without a walkthrough < 1266010456 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Gotta sell those copies of Nintendo Power magazine < 1266010468 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pokemon doesn't, AFAIK < 1266010477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, don't they realise people just check gamefaqs? ;) < 1266010483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah maybe, never played those < 1266010492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was paper mario < 1266010497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot what the tricky thing was < 1266010530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, so, maybe we should say "every rpg or adventure game" < 1266010550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though there were a few weird ones in mario 64 and such too < 1266010559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(paper mario is an rpg) < 1266010599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nintendo Power is older than GameFAQs. :P < 1266010602 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I needed spoilers for the bit in mario 64 where you have to zoom in and change the camera angle, to trigger you teleporting < 1266010609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what XD < 1266010617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, would that be the flying cap thingy? < 1266010631 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep (or just the cap switch generally in the DS version) < 1266010634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, that was quite tricky < 1266010641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, there is just one cap switch there? < 1266010657 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the locations of the other two were changed to have a couple of stars instead < 1266010665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I wasn't aware of that they ported it to DS < 1266010671 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a multiple-characters thing instead, which has new levels < 1266010684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, did they fix the bad camera control when they ported it? < 1266010693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, didn't they have to lose some of those stars < 1266010696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that need the other caps < 1266010699 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not awful in the port, but I'm not sure what it was like originally < 1266010701 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are more starts < 1266010703 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*stars < 1266010713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but what about metal and vanish caps? < 1266010717 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of flying cap as mario, vanish cap as mario, metal cap as mario < 1266010727 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's flower as mario, flower as luigi, flower as wario < 1266010733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266010740 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the cap switch creates blocks that drop flowers < 1266010743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that means some of the stars must have been relocated < 1266010749 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why? < 1266010753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they depended on the caps to be reachable < 1266010762 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can still get all three cap effects < 1266010764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you had to fly, or use the metal < 1266010766 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just you get them a different way < 1266010771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah. I see < 1266010794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but why wario. Why. < 1266010795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: The cap switches are entirely optional, y'know. < 1266010799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't make sense in that game < 1266010815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in the original, yes; in the sequel, no < 1266010824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, err really? No that wouldn't work for the first level where you have to pass through those rings of coins < 1266010824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, they made it required? < 1266010827 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you don't have to hit the switch < 1266010832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, maybe you need all coins? < 1266010835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266010836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all stars < 1266010836 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do have to release at least Mario, which is sort-of the equivalent of hitting a switch < 1266010837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You don't have to get all the stars. < 1266010837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266010843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, true I guess < 1266010855 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can leave luigi and wario locked up all game, though, I did on my first playthrough < 1266010862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:02:08 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc <<< this is just tree rewriting < 1266010864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't caaaaaare < 1266010869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, err, how do you start playing as then? < 1266010877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 70 stars to beat the game. < 1266010878 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like trees < 1266010883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There are 120 stars *in* the game. < 1266010888 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you start as Yoshi, obviously < 1266010891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah yes, remember now < 1266010896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what? Not in the original < 1266010897 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the numbers were bumped to 90 and 150 for the DS port, IIRC < 1266010902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in the original you start as mario < 1266010907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and play mario all the way < 1266010908 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, I'm describing a port with some enhanced features < 1266010923 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was a straight port, it wouldn't have sold as well as a port with some extra levels < 1266010927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, s/enhanced/totally wrecked/ < 1266010927 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1266010936 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what makes you think that? < 1266010942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the metal cap doesn't really need a FAQ to get. < 1266010944 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-49-113.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266010953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, some extra levels sure, but what I'm finding an issue with is changing the playing character so completely < 1266010960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in a level where the vanish cap is useful. < 1266010965 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, most of the controls are the same < 1266010980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I found the vanish cap without problems. And, You mean "where the metal cap is useful" < 1266010983 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :replacing mario's 3d model with yoshi's isn't a massive change < 1266010991 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Erm, right. < 1266010994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/You/you/ < 1266011002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, same abilities? < 1266011003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the characters are mostly similar, apart from each has a few moves the others don't < 1266011004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, it's just the wing cap that's a "guide dang it" sort of thing. < 1266011016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, true < 1266011023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ? < 1266011038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, actually I found that one by pure chance, I wanted to check what the odd white column in the emulator was < 1266011041 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"WTF is with the light from the roof?" < 1266011043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it didn't draw it properly < 1266011047 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mario is the only one who can wall-kick; yoshi can't punch (swallowing enemies instead); luigi's backflips last ages; wario's punches are super-powerful < 1266011051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the game it isn't as visible normally < 1266011051 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Heheheh. < 1266011054 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about it for the differences, though < 1266011062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, it's pretty darned visible. < 1266011067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a column of light. < 1266011072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "?"? < 1266011072 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yoshi can fly to some extent, but not very far < 1266011076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not *soild white column* though < 1266011086 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Yeah. < 1266011092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like a sunbeam, not a white column. < 1266011097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which Mario is standing. < 1266011110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I know, they fixed that bug later in mupen64plus iirc < 1266011118 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you press A while standing there, you get a message saying "mario... hello..." or something like that < 1266011120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like a sunbeam on modern versions < 1266011124 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oklopol, Defcalc, tree rewriting, Slereah likes trees, or something < 1266011140 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amidst Mario chatter < 1266011142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, fly? how does that even make any sense < 1266011147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, yes, I was just telling oklopol to shut his foo because it's still a nice language. < 1266011152 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's more gliding < 1266011159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I like trees too. Nature is fun. < 1266011165 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, if you hold down jump, you go up for a bit before going down < 1266011170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. < 1266011172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, *how* < 1266011173 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can move for that time < 1266011191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mupen64plus now emulates that game 100% perfectly. < 1266011193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I mean, Yoshi isn't very aerodynamic really! < 1266011197 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: he has wings? < 1266011204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? does he? < 1266011204 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think, anyway < 1266011216 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :little stubby ones that rather restrict flying, but enough to keep him in the air for a bit < 1266011217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's just what Yoshi does. < 1266011226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He does it in all the games in which Yoshi is playable. < 1266011237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, I haven't played many games with yoshi in < 1266011238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, double-jump. < 1266011250 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never played Mario World? < 1266011288 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the super mario 64 ds version is more like one continuous jump than a double-jump < 1266011305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, mario world, maybe. SNES? < 1266011318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and boring plus rather hard < 1266011327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer RPGs mostly actually. < 1266011336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snes rpgs are lovelu < 1266011338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lovely* < 1266011339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Weird. < 1266011345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sometimes at least) < 1266011347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoshi's sort of gliding thing is fun < 1266011360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in yoshi island ds, and maybe the original it's based on too, it sounds and looks like he's desperately taking a dump < 1266011361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SNES. And one of the greatest platformers. < 1266011367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes him flutter up momentarily < 1266011371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR < 1266011373 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also one of the easier ones) < 1266011375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, mario 64 is way better (apart from the camera of course) < 1266011383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. < 1266011391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mario 64 is as good. < 1266011392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266011393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Super Mario Bros 1, bitches. < 1266011394 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the DS version, you mostly just use R as a camera control < 1266011395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No competition. < 1266011401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Mario 3. < 1266011404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, I'm good at mario 64. I suck at mario world < 1266011408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the world one is worse < 1266011409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266011413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: How can you suck at it? < 1266011414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DUH DUH DUH DUH DUH DAH--duh. Duh duh duh, da duh duh duh duh duh dah dah dah dah dah duh dah duh < 1266011419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, always dying? < 1266011426 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the camera stays in much the same angle while it's released, swings behind you when it's pressed < 1266011426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to time jumps? < 1266011431 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite powerups and trivial one-ups! < 1266011436 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How 'bout just Mario Bros? < 1266011445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the issue is the jumps < 1266011458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You can try again. Forever. < 1266011465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also, time limit < 1266011466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1266011471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mario 64 lacks that < 1266011471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: meh < 1266011475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: boring arcade-ish game imo < 1266011476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You can go back to the level. < 1266011483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, how 'bout just donkey kong?!) < 1266011484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, I hate time limits < 1266011498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you run out of lives, you fail at gaming forever. < 1266011500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never really run into SMB's time limmits < 1266011508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I run out of lives in SMB1 all the time though :) < 1266011527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to get a 1-up, kill the Koopa Troopas at the start of 1-1 and exit the level) < 1266011527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How 'bout that little-known, hand-held LCD-screen game, "Mario's Cement Factory"? Now that's retro. < 1266011538 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I know it < 1266011544 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Really! < 1266011550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what? < 1266011551 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: there's an infinite loop near the start of 1-1 < 1266011553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles < 1266011562 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you can get an extra life, get a coin, then die < 1266011569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only remember it vaguely from an issue of Electronic Gaming from the 80's < 1266011569 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and respawn where you can repeat the process < 1266011576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you were so amazed it wasn't even a ? < 1266011580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just a ! question < 1266011590 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I've even seen one of the original game&watch games, and even played it, although I'm not sure it was that one in particular < 1266011591 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes! < 1266011595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: let's confuse you: I'm using Linux, and like the typography and fonts < 1266011603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Gw_donkeykong_trans.png < 1266011609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :handheld nintendo console with two screens < 1266011613 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that should have been: alise: Yes? < 1266011616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a dpad, and some buttons < 1266011618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :folds < 1266011622 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266011634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm "game & watch"? never heard about that before < 1266011642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: thou art luckey. < 1266011643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lucky < 1266011648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, strange there is a super mario wiki < 1266011652 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Play more Smash Bros. < 1266011654 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dates from before games consoles were capable of running more than one game < 1266011656 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how is that strange? < 1266011675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? the fighting games? < 1266011678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I loath that genre < 1266011682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Gamewatch_mariobros_open.JPG IT'S JUST LIKE A BOOK < 1266011699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see if we can all agree on one game being great < 1266011701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mario Kart! < 1266011706 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: which version? < 1266011710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Which one? < 1266011714 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you play this < 1266011715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, I mainly play double dash, the gamecube one < 1266011718 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has like two buttons < 1266011722 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually played all but the Gamecube and Wii ones < 1266011728 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was the best one, IMO. < 1266011730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've played the DS one < 1266011731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rubbish < 1266011734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wii one is also rubbish < 1266011736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the steering is wonky < 1266011738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really hard to steer precisely < 1266011743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the console ones were good. < 1266011744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just seems really fuzzy, not enough mario karty < 1266011747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not played the portable ones. < 1266011750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with the wheel < 1266011753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wheel is worse than useless < 1266011754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, I was too young to understand when I was playing the SNES version; I played it in a supermarket creche while my parents were shopping < 1266011756 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I interested in Muppets right now? < 1266011760 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and never figured otu the controls < 1266011761 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*out < 1266011767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, the original mario kart came out in 1992? < 1266011769 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the DS one is rather broken, and I dislike the level design < 1266011769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Play it with a Gamecube controller. < 1266011774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought 64 was the latest one < 1266011775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Mario Kart! <-- no < 1266011779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like that genre either < 1266011780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I might as well just play the gamecube version < 1266011782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about: < 1266011782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the graphics are sharper < 1266011783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, die. < 1266011785 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the N64 one was fun, if a little prone to random explosions < 1266011789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION throws a blue shell at AnMaster < 1266011790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Mario RPG? < 1266011791 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and had some great level design < 1266011794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is good < 1266011795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually dodged a blue shell before! < 1266011795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the SNES one < 1266011796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah. The Gamecube one is better. < 1266011798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also mario 64 < 1266011808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One way I know is sure-fire, and the other way was the luckiest fluke ever. < 1266011811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't reproduce the latter. < 1266011816 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: <3 Mario RPG. < 1266011819 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the GBA one is rather neat too, they managed to balance the items well and the battle mode is great < 1266011837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about paper mario? It is quite nice < 1266011842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :played that recently < 1266011847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not played it. < 1266011861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the n64 one that is < 1266011862 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only own one console, BTW. < 1266011870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I own none < 1266011877 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Haven't played it, but I probably have the ROM. < 1266011878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus I can't play anything newer than n64 < 1266011894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sure-fire way, btw, is to go up a blasting tunnel - like in Daisy Cruiser's longcut or D.K. Mountain - while it locks on to you < 1266011896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, use glide64 to get anything usable in mupen64plus for it < 1266011897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I picked up a backwards-compatible PS3 recently. < 1266011903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, paper mario that is < 1266011905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will "hit" you in the air, though you won't see it, and it'll have no effect < 1266011905 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266011909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, you need to time it rather well... < 1266011914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Already do; couldn't get Mario 64 working otherwise. < 1266011933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, well. It's freaking Mario 64. < 1266011935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, glide64 is the only decently working video plugin for most games < 1266011951 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: doesn't work in the DS version, btw, it falls back while you blast, and catches up to you afterwards < 1266011962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: pah, other people have tried this! < 1266011964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not so special < 1266011970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best 3D Mario game. :) < 1266011971 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the DS version, a skilled player can set off a power-slide turbo boost at an exact moment to dodge it, but I'm not that good < 1266011987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, camera control < 1266011996 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the PSTB fanaticism in the DS version really defines the game; it's probably a bad thing, it leads to you wearing your left thumb out) < 1266012007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I hate the camera control in mario 64 < 1266012014 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that is the one thing that's off. < 1266012015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it is a good idea but it doesn't work out well < 1266012022 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, I dislike the way items work in the DS version, they're pretty much all designed to screw over the leader, you can't do clever things like setting red shells as mines any more) < 1266012022 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glide64 is a weird name for a video plugin, assuming it doesn't actually use the 3dfx Glide API. < 1266012031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think it does.... < 1266012033 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be much better if it were analog. < 1266012047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I hate how sending a blue shell backwards as 1st player hits yourself < 1266012047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or some opengl wrapper thingy for it < 1266012055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just... argh, no, I didn't tell you to do that < 1266012064 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what does sending it forwards do? < 1266012069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the same. < 1266012073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blue shells don't aim :P < 1266012075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just hit player 1 < 1266012077 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same happens in the DS version < 1266012088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ds version's graphics suck and i find the gameplay a little sluggish < 1266012094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266012099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the GBA version, you can trail a spiky shell behind you like with other shells, and it will protect you and break like a green shell does < 1266012105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never liked either fighting or racing games < 1266012111 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fully 1/3 of my scrollback is now Mario-related. < 1266012111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mario kart isn't really a racing game < 1266012113 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you fire it forwards, it just goes straight and hits a wall and dies < 1266012117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RPGs and some platformers is what I like < 1266012117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: SHADDUP < 1266012119 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you fire it backwards, it stays there as a mine < 1266012119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also zelda games < 1266012128 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the DS version is, because they nerfed items so badly for the leader < 1266012129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zelda a link to the past or oot < 1266012131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is best < 1266012134 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other versions aren't, really, though < 1266012139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for the flamewar to die down over that < 1266012148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, alise pikhq ^ < 1266012155 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've never played either < 1266012159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266012160 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I've watched two OoT TASes < 1266012165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, TAS? < 1266012166 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a normal one, and a RBG one < 1266012171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tool assisted speedruns < 1266012172 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tool-assisted speedrun < 1266012176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, RBG? < 1266012179 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse bottle glitch < 1266012180 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's a weird way to do it, but yes, it seems you're right. At least it explains the name. < 1266012181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, cheat codes? < 1266012184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :artworks in which you slow down time in the game and use repeated save/loads to get an almost perfect time for a game < 1266012186 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a cheat code, exactly < 1266012189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using glitches is fair game < 1266012194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also wth is "reverse bottle glitch"? < 1266012197 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's memory corruption < 1266012203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I made sure to call them artworks so you'd get upset and trash them) < 1266012206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, It could be fairly old code? < 1266012219 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, you use a race condition while fishing to get a bottle into an inventory slot it can't normally occupy < 1266012220 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It probably is; no-one'd do it that way nowadays. < 1266012223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: That's a weird way to do it, but yes, it seems you're right. At least it explains the name. < 1266012224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1266012233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, glide64 < 1266012242 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you keep catching and releasing bugs; every time you do so, it copies one of the bytes that holds item quantities over another < 1266012246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266012248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, one of the video plugins for mupen64 < 1266012250 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to how your inventory's arranged < 1266012256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the only one that works decently too < 1266012269 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you seemingly do random sidequests for most of the game, then randomly you've completed all the dungeons in the game < 1266012284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, heh < 1266012286 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the TASes use quite a lot of special programming in them; I think some of the megaman ones had pretty complicated programs to do the optimal-route-finding. < 1266012292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you still need to complete the first normally < 1266012295 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good RBG quest doesn't complete any of the compulsory dungeons apart from the last one, and for that one you skip most of them < 1266012297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no you don't < 1266012301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, no? < 1266012302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There's glitches to skip that. < 1266012307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266012349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, interesting how it can skip over going to big link? < 1266012351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266012354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grown up link < 1266012355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1266012372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it would have to < 1266012374 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you just wander into the temple of time, become big link, and wander back out again < 1266012384 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glitching past all the barriers that would normally stop you just doing that without prerequisites < 1266012391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, trollaxing time < 1266012396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best characters/kart in mario kart? < 1266012403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, there must have to be a *LOT* of glitches? < 1266012407 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's a TAS < 1266012411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, don't they all work exactly the same iirc? < 1266012416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1266012417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, at least in the n64 version < 1266012421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:40:04 cpressey, isn't there an algorithm for converting it to RPN? < 1266012424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shunting thingy dijkstra bla < 1266012426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, pretty sure they do in the n64 version < 1266012426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://www.tasvideos.org/ZeldaOcarinaOfTimeTricks.html < 1266012427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nah different speed, accel, etc < 1266012434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :powerup weights, i think < 1266012435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and special powerups < 1266012437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err yes, it was mentioned a bit later iirc < 1266012438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266012448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'm logreading an entire week < 1266012454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't give me shit or i'll start blabbing about how bad it was < 1266012455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, where is that described? Not in game? < 1266012460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah in game < 1266012462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the gcn one < 1266012468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcn? < 1266012473 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my definition of a TAS: it's where you painstakingly spend months, interactively at a copy of the game, using rewinds, slowdown, etc., to record a script that plays the game as near-perfectly as you can manage < 1266012474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamecube nintendo < 1266012474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm talking about n64 here < 1266012480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go to single player mode, select characters, select kart, look at kart stats < 1266012485 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I can summarize my lines: "Hate Python, haaaaate." < 1266012489 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you just plug the script into an emulator, and get a really really fast tool-assisted speedrun < 1266012497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: having to work with it? < 1266012498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, heh < 1266012563 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tasvideos.org/RockmanTricks.html is also a nice list. < 1266012565 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think I've ever met anyone who hates Python before, so it's refreshing < 1266012572 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as a Perl fan myself, I should have come across more < 1266012581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: The Pokemon Yellow speedrun couldn't have taken more than an evening to do, though. < 1266012584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate Python. < 1266012587 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sure? < 1266012593 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they skip out all the rerecords < 1266012598 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the final product < 1266012603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: it probably uses some glitch < 1266012607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to win the game in three minutes or something < 1266012608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, that's because the only glitch is restarting the console at the right time. < 1266012611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a joek a joek lol < 1266012618 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typically, a TAS takes a month of work to produce an hour of output < 1266012621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 2 minutes. < 1266012628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How on earth? < 1266012631 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah, that's the one I was talking about < 1266012636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It saves. Shuts down the game in the middle of saving. < 1266012647 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Starts the game, loads. < 1266012651 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goes into battle. < 1266012655 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: basically, if you turn it off while saving, all the remaining save data is full of the same byte < 1266012671 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: not quite, it went and did lots of changing the pokemon list, which was 255 items long and so overflowed into main memory < 1266012674 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, it's my day job. scarf: The next time someone refers to it as "uncluttered" I shall refer them to the design of the pickle module, and have them compare it to any other modern language's serialization facilities. < 1266012687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: That happened in-battle, and I was typing out the description. < 1266012693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I never really thought of you as a day job kind of guy, Cats Eye surely generates some money right?! < 1266012695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Also, that was the item list. < 1266012698 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, I got the order wrong < 1266012705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't possibly have time for all the stuff you do without either not having a day job or sleeping polyphasically, surely. :P < 1266012709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It swapped the item list around to write memory such that it skipped to the end of the game after the battle. < 1266012727 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the pokemon list was involved too, but that might have been a different TAS < 1266012728 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I wish. < 1266012740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: 0 pokemon. < 1266012759 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: same, but I thought the /list/ was still used < 1266012795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Pokemon Green one was fun, also. < 1266012800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm watching that speedrun now < 1266012803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Started a walk through walls glitch. < 1266012805 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266012805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Go 9999999999999999999999999999999999999[lots of 9s]" < 1266012807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Go! < 1266012813 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I had more time when I was at school, and when I was commuting to/from work at my previous job. < 1266012818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Walked to the end-of-game. < 1266012822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :End. < 1266012824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266012832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr3L597dZFM < 1266012834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so pretty < 1266012876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you made this game your bitch" --youtube comment < 1266012911 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what's that a link to (at work)? < 1266012930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PKMN Yellow speedrun < 1266012968 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I've seen that one already I think < 1266012977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which platforms are the pokemon games for? < 1266012978 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Youtube URLs are so opaque... < 1266012982 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: most of them < 1266012985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, what sort of emulator do you need < 1266012985 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that Nintendo make < 1266012990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, snes? < 1266012991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Gameboys, mostly. < 1266012992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the DS. < 1266012995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266013003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I have a ds emulator, it sucks < 1266013006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GBA (gameboy advance) has Pokemon Sapphire which is the main one I've played. < 1266013009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the gameboy advance one then < 1266013011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And VirtualBoy Advance is pretty much perfect. < 1266013012 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :handheld RPGs: game boy original, game boy color, gameboy advance, DS for the four generations < 1266013015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the emulators are. < 1266013025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And obtaining a sapphire/ruby rom is as easy as, uh, going to the toilet? < 1266013030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And VirtualBoy Advance is pretty much perfect. <-- yes < 1266013031 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there were also console RPGs too, for the N64-like consoles < 1266013043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, protip: tapping A and B doesn't make the pokeballs work more. < 1266013044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? interesting < 1266013048 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ruby/sapphire have a rather obnoxious font < 1266013054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Really? I never noticed. < 1266013056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but it gives your fingers something to do while you're waiting < 1266013064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you don't meen firered and lifegreen? < 1266013075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they ran out of colours lol.) < 1266013080 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's obnoxious too, but a diffreent way < 1266013082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266013086 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and firered and leafgreen are remakes of red and green < 1266013094 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it makes sense to have similar names < 1266013094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266013094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's the font obnoxious? < 1266013094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, I seem to lack a collection of such roms < 1266013102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do have a large snes rom collection < 1266013103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like heartgold and soulsilver are remakes of gold and silver < 1266013108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.coolrom.com/roms/gba/ < 1266013110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fewer n64 < 1266013117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just one gba < 1266013117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be bullshit, maybe not < 1266013118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ymmv < 1266013129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I was planning for piratebay < 1266013154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roms are generally on less reputable sites ;) < 1266013160 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look, there's a general rule that you don't discuss ROMs on every forum in existence < 1266013164 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including, presumably, IRC < 1266013167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266013185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, so, lets discuss EEPROM then < 1266013200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly it was *that* type of roms we were talking about here < 1266013222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yes, but I don't really care < 1266013226 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I expected people would be jumping on me for either censorship, or calling IRC a forum < 1266013246 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously I fail at trolling #esoteric, I should go back to trolling ##crawl-dev < 1266013259 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't mean to troll it, but looking back on what I say there, I think I'm a troll) < 1266013271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ffs, rapidshare style website sucks < 1266013275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I remember why I prefer torrents < 1266013302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lericson.blogg.se/code/2010/february/this-might-seem-silly-git-pull.html < 1266013330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be playing a Pokemon game in Japanese, but... No kanji. < 1266013335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Makes it harder to read*. < 1266013347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well. Easier to read. Harder to understand.) < 1266013397 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first rule of ROMs is that you don't discuss ROMs. < 1266013417 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I like f4y's comment < 1266013436 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's factually incorrect < 1266013450 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but especially if it's correct < 1266013455 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other commenters seem divide < 1266013457 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*divided < 1266013491 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one about Linus being a Swedish speaker? It's correct. < 1266013556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://lericson.blogg.se/code/2010/february/this-might-seem-silly-git-pull.html <-- heh < 1266013676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a torrent for 10.26 GB of for GBA < 1266013680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty amazing < 1266013686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ^ < 1266013687 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, there must be some sort of gnome (no offense meant to the desktop environment) on my disk eating files. < 1266013711 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't get what you're trying to say here, and don't particularly want to either < 1266013721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the huge size < 1266013730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the GoodGBA set of things not discussed contains 34118 things not discussed, and those modern things not discussed aren't exactly very small. < 1266013736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Memory's cheap, after all. < 1266013769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a 10 second speed run. < 1266013789 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its submission explains the input frame by frame. < 1266013793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.tasvideos.org/2025S.html < 1266013806 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266013826 0 :tcsavage!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266013844 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That fantasy strategy game or whatever? < 1266013855 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you linked it. Wonder how I missed that. < 1266013873 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's the one. < 1266013884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's amazing. < 1266013922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When your win condition is based solely on the RNG what do you expect? < 1266013945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who cares, it's sweet < 1266013993 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: colors a skeleton < 1266014045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I was about to ask whether anyone's interested enough to look at frame 1063 and explain what that's about. < 1266014095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colors a skeleton! < 1266014103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colours, the skeleton. < 1266014112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which frame is it? < 1266014113 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I watch it -_- < 1266014114 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfx3QAV64M < 1266014115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, as in, what time? < 1266014117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.tasvideos.org/1145M.html < 1266014121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :click the watch thingy and choose you toob < 1266014129 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol where is it < 1266014139 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not my link, it's off topic < 1266014140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno :D < 1266014141 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzkrREEtnAI < 1266014152 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 1080p! < 1266014169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what time count is the colour skeleton < 1266014202 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get 720p youtube < 1266014207 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the little box isn't big enough < 1266014229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fullscreen dood < 1266014234 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0:19, I think < 1266014236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are your two choices < 1266014242 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also think it's obscured by the "this is from tasvideos" text < 1266014280 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be the frame immediately before the "congratulation message is displayed" one. < 1266014281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it < 1266014287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait < 1266014293 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how to watch it -_- < 1266014294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at a frame 1060-1062 < 1266014302 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hitting 1063 will be tricky < 1266014309 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Youtube, linked. < 1266014327 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you! < 1266014378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it basically manipulates the RNG through a certain input sequence so that a search for whoever finds him successfully, and does that immediately < 1266014383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Frame 1120 in the actual video. < 1266014386 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah, I'll just grab the avi < 1266014391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1266014397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dns timeout on tasvideos < 1266014399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1266014401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the flicker thing before the hooray you won thing < 1266014410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it works < 1266014420 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. < 1266014422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It glitches oddly, then "Hooray, you won". < 1266014423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:21:11 I am eternally tempted to design a "real" language which "gets everything right". It's a bad temptation. It's better to stick to these weird little languages that intentionally get things "wrong"... < 1266014427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EEEEEHIRDLAAAAAANG < 1266014432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, AAAAAALISELAAAAAAAAANG < 1266014442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The skeleton is on the screen color-swapped for no good reason. < 1266014453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, except that my MPC doesn't work and VLC evidently lacks frame advance. < 1266014453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "simple" stuff, getting that right is easy < 1266014457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliselang solves problems you didn't even know you had < 1266014465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: mplayer? oh, mpc = windows = no < 1266014517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:50:36 I could live with them being slightly less than first-class, for efficiency. But still, it's so rare to be able to handle them like normal objects. < 1266014518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk < 1266014526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Squeak has totally super-awesome stack objects < 1266014535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hrm, well... I downloaded the highest-quality MP4 version from youtube, and frame-advanced, and there's one glitched-graphics frame, but I still don't see any special colors on the skeleton. < 1266014541 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If getting the simple stuff right is easy, why does it still seem so rare? < 1266014553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Glitched-graphics comes a few frames before that. < 1266014554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Because most people underrate correctness massively. < 1266014564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, okay. Maybe the youtube version has a dropped frame or something, then. < 1266014567 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whatever. < 1266014570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It's the flicker before the you won thing < 1266014572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the transition < 1266014572 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Fair 'nuff. < 1266014573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that i think < 1266014583 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Only one glitched-graphics frame? < 1266014587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And most people HIGHLY underrate dependent types!!!!12121 < 1266014589 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, a couple. < 1266014593 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There should be 3 according to the description < 1266014603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After which, the colour. < 1266014633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'd avoid IEEE floating point whenever possible, anyway. < 1266014642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things that break mathematical laws in such ridiculously arbitrary ways upset me. < 1266014648 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, okay, there it is. The .avi version has it, the youtube one doesn't. < 1266014649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I agree. < 1266014670 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the people that know dependent types highly OVERrate them < 1266014677 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Floating point on an Apple ][+ traumatized me over the real number system for the rest of my life. < 1266014684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Hey, it's not my fault they solve most problems. < 1266014692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reals are spooky < 1266014693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: If it's the one that colours a whole lot more than just the skeleton, I saw that one. < 1266014703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about a system which has |x-y| instead of x-y < 1266014705 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, I assume it's that one. < 1266014713 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Since the skeleton is coloured too. < 1266014718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be cool to keep the commutativity rag up for as many operations as possible < 1266014721 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, yay, VLC /does/ have frame advance. It's just hidden in view->advanced controls. < 1266014776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:51:53 Hm, maybe Ruby does something like that though -- I wouldn't put it past it. < 1266014776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :na < 1266014809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, they're getting rid of continuations in 1.9. Because they're hard to implement efficiently. < 1266014811 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Efficient. < 1266014812 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby. < 1266014814 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO. < 1266014821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they're not < 1266014826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.9.1 is out, maybe even 1.9.2 < 1266014829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they reinstated continuations < 1266014834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, good. < 1266014836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they even work across threads now, which makes them something other than useless < 1266014849 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. Wow. < 1266014888 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK, Youtube is ~30fps, while most videos on that site are ~60fps... < 1266014907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I know right < 1266014911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's your http://www.youtube.com/my_speed < 1266014935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We did not find any video playbacks from your location." < 1266014936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lulz. < 1266014943 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1266014958 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't know Ruby < 1266014976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are lucky. < 1266014982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not a very good language. < 1266014984 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to implement efficiently?? < 1266014998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby is just like "yeaaa DYNAMIFUCKINGCISM" < 1266014999 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is hard abount it < 1266015001 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about* < 1266015014 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe it's a matter of the code they already have is fucked < 1266015032 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I think one of the complaints was that VM's like the JVM are all, like, stack-based < 1266015049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: too much dynamiwoopy < 1266015146 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: "Your average video speed at this location from January 14, 2010 to February 11, 2010 was 2.89 Mbps." That's a bit strange, since the speeds shown by the test video right now are a lot higher. Well, whatever. < 1266015196 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this is just a good time-of-day. < 1266015208 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266015225 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My graph is very sawtooth-like. < 1266015292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: There are few languages more dynamic. < 1266015400 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so dynamic about it? < 1266015485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: false < 1266015490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love Iverson Brackets. < 1266015525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Than Ruby? < 1266015532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1266015542 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kay... < 1266015548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Languages more dynamic? < 1266015568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smalltalk < 1266015571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one < 1266015577 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ruby is so dynamic" is mostly marketing. Lots of languages are dynamic. It's not usually a good thing. < 1266015592 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iverson Brackets?! < 1266015603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iverson_bracket < 1266015608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[x] = if x then 1 else 0 < 1266015610 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise were you reading fortress blog? < 1266015613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a < b] + [a = b] + [a > b] = 1 < 1266015616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, Smalltalk is more dynamic. < 1266015619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sign(x) = [x > 0] - [x < 0] < 1266015622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i was reading you mentioning it < 1266015629 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk is also... Better. < 1266015642 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, Kronecker delta I've heard of... < 1266015658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is plenty dynamic, and I curse it for being so. < 1266015742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there a Matz quote where he admits Ruby was supposed to be like 'Smalltalk for normal programmers' or something? < 1266015758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ruby = Matzlisp. < 1266015763 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get ruby < 1266015767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1266015769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He just decided to change the syntax at the end of its hodge-podge transformation. < 1266015770 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the deal with ruby? < 1266015773 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what I mean? < 1266015783 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's not much to get. Like I said, it's mostly marketing < 1266015784 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's hodge-STAR < 1266015785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Ruby is a language designed in the following steps: < 1266015785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * take a simple lisp language (like one prior to CL). < 1266015785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * remove macros, s-expression. < 1266015785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * add simple object system (much simpler than CLOS). < 1266015785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * add blocks, inspired by higher order functions. < 1266015785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * add methods found in Smalltalk. < 1266015789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * add functionality found in Perl (in OO way). < 1266015791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, Ruby was a Lisp originally, in theory. < 1266015793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's call it MatzLisp from now on. ;-)" < 1266015795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--matz < 1266015795 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remove s-expression o_O < 1266015808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like Lisp, but get this: we take out the Lisp. < 1266015815 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically it's a rubbish version of common lisp < 1266015819 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266015821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Have sex with me, women! I am a genius!" < 1266015827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I invented MATZLISP!" < 1266016047 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266016077 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could tell you stories about a certain troll in one of the BSD channels that that just reminded me of, but I'd much rather forget him. < 1266016095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hugs alise  < 1266016122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks. < 1266016153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: S-expressions aren't essential to being Lisp. I' < 1266016170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d say macros and the idea of the code being a list are, though. < 1266016171 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the thought of /removing/ them seems bizarre to me < 1266016184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There exist M-expression Lisps. < 1266016241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm "We did not find any video playbacks from your location." here too for http://www.youtube.com/my_speed < 1266016263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also suggests I download google chrome for linux < 1266016269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is strange < 1266016274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I'm on FreeBSD atm < 1266016371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1266016380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? < 1266016400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wow, today's xkcd is bad, even for xkcd. <-- it's for valentine's day. how could you possibly make a joke for valentine's day that _wasn't_ bad? < 1266016402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it does get the right small town < 1266016404 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *wish* that were strange. < 1266016405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's scary < 1266016416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering I have a highly dynamic ip < 1266016434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how perl requires a true statement at the end of modules? < 1266016439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly, my language should require a ∎ < 1266016449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, a small black box? < 1266016457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_proof < 1266016469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hard to spot it was that here. < 1266016487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also I'm more used to the outline version < 1266016500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mom is more used to the outline version. < 1266016512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one doesn't even make sense < 1266016520 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∎ < 1266016526 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use it like a rimshot, see. < 1266016537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266016718 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to see a language require a statement which is neither true nor false at the end of each module. Perhaps an opinion. < 1266016724 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Posies are pretty; < 1266016740 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-2-83.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266016755 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey ahaha for "∎" as rimshot < 1266016818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Or an infinite loop < 1266016822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to prove it's an infinite loop. < 1266016828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The proof must be at least 100 lines long. < 1266016837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, some proper busywork for programmers wanting to slack off! < 1266016846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"WHAT ARE YOU DOING" "Proving" < 1266016866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. DSMV is removing the Asperger's Syndrome diagnosis. < 1266016935 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew aspergers doesn't exist!!!! < 1266016941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1266017123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dammit i was going to comment on why uk is not a schengen member < 1266017147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gone :( < 1266017223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iiuc it's because of the british commonwealth - they cannot have easy travelling within both zones without all of the EU having the same) < 1266017245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So hey, it's slightly more reputable. < 1266017248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still a bunch of crap, but. < 1266017292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the schengen zone is essentially uncontrolled internally, but with strict outer borders externally < 1266017342 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/all of the EU/all of the Schengen zone/ < 1266017400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume that the british commonwealth travel is somewhat controlled, but much weaker than the outer schengen border < 1266017431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strict exactly is the outer schengen border? < 1266017460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: About as strict as other first-world nations. < 1266017538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiuc to enter schengen from a place that doesn't have visa exemption to it, you apply to any country within, but _all_ countries are notified and can probably veto it < 1266017558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1266017562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty hard to enter the eu, then < 1266017563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not entirely sure of the specifics though < 1266017570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(probably easiest to enter the uk then the eu from that?) < 1266017621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Can't go from UK to EU unless you can enter the Schengen zone from outside it. < 1266017650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then, hard to enter the EU full-stop < 1266017664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :letting almost any country in the eu veto any entry is pretty steep though < 1266017667 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this one of those puzzles, like where farmer Brown has a boat and his pig and a coyote? < 1266017678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Travelling IMMIGRANT < 1266017689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to a non-travelling immigrant < 1266017698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, there's not a veto system in place. < 1266017706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by "probably veto" i mean i'm not in any way sure whether the accepting country _has_ to obey a veto < 1266017721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ok < 1266017737 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a common set of requirements to get a visa, and a single list of people that can't get a visa. < 1266017763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They must also not be a threat to the security or health of a Schengen nation. < 1266017820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the list public? < 1266017824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna see i wanna see i wanna see < 1266017864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd guess not, this list obviously includes suspected terrorists and stuff < 1266017875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then i've already been wrong in this discussion < 1266017885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1266017902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 Jun 2006 ... So a listing on the Schengen immigration 'blacklist' in ... The current criteria for listing a person on the Schengen blacklist are set out ... < 1266017904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna see wanna see < 1266017948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The list doesn't appear to be public. < 1266017999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if you are even notified of being on the list if that's the reason you're denied entry < 1266018016 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being on the list does not necessarily deny you entry. < 1266018027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266018028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a list of people officials should look out for. < 1266018039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Farmer Brown and his boat are on one side of a river, along with his pig and his coyote. He can only take one animal across the river at once. If he leaves them alone together, the coyote will eat the pig. < 1266018048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including people that should be denied entry, people who are wanted in a country in the Schengen zone, and missing persons. < 1266018049 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solution: Take the pig across. Go back. Take the coyote across. < 1266018076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no you have to take the coyote first *ducks* < 1266018089 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the problem is that the coyote is on the Schengen blacklist, for obvious reasons. < 1266018104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hint: the coyote and pig are completely symmetric in this puzzle) < 1266018126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also report lost or reported stolen *items*. < 1266018138 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, like the boat. < 1266018148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(vehicles, identity documents, firearms, etc.) < 1266018178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The list is updated every 5 minutes. < 1266018181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell needs a ShowHTML < 1266018185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need italics to show this properly :( < 1266018313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Dare I ask? < 1266018339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been having impure thoughts about serialization lately < 1266018402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :distinguishing literals from free variables in this language < 1266018440 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So when you have the coyote and pig on the other side, how can you go back for the ducks? < 1266018442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just write out HTML in your show function < 1266018469 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or better - ANSI escape codes! < 1266018477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266018479 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you can make it out on your terminal < 1266018487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps bolding, or inversion. < 1266018502 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You get the ducks to swim. < 1266018621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. < 1266018628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you, old GHC, and your lack of UTF-8. < 1266018634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Print! PRINT! < 1266018651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: take the coyote back, then the ducks over, then go back and fetch the coyote < 1266018672 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: But won't the ducks eat the pig then? Those things are nasty. < 1266018687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh in that case there might be a problem < 1266018702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Results 1 - 3 of 3 for "duck eats pig". (0.20 seconds) -- well, maybe it's not so bad. < 1266018712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then there is anyhow - the ducks might swim over to the pig while you're not watching < 1266018800 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I hear ducks take to water like a duck to water. < 1266018829 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm as long as the ducks are vegetarian this would seem to work. although then you really _do_ need to take the coyote first. < 1266018851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't work with 3 things the coyote eats, i think < 1266018902 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah of course pig - coyote - duck is isomorphic to the well-known wolf - goat - bag of whatever goats eat < 1266018905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, now, as long as you don't let the coyote produce any, ahem, excrement, you've still gotten the things across, and that's what matters. < 1266018944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it doesn't matter who eats whom, you've failed anyway < 1266018971 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, if you eat them all, you're the winner. < 1266018992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i was going to suggest you just eat the pig straight away < 1266019029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we generalize this to an arbitrary graph of -will eat- relationships... < 1266019041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ha, that ANSI code idea was brilliant < 1266019054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266019120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't quite extend to the cannibals and missionaries case though, since that depends on majority < 1266019174 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Glad it was helpful. < 1266019239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: of course, it will be rather rubbish for actually *writing* programs < 1266019241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who does that? < 1266019316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to organize his bookmarks at some point < 1266019361 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1266019482 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266019539 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1266019563 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did a "Clear Browsing Data" thing in Chrome, but I changed my mind, and can't seem to stop it < 1266019593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND or OR < 1266019597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be defined first? < 1266019601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. which is more fundamental? < 1266019604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAND < 1266019639 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkill chrome < 1266019639 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1266019645 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, i'd go with (a & b) | (c & d) if you're thinking of ordering or something like that < 1266019647 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And or or = or < 1266019660 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRUNT < 1266019666 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night folks. < 1266019669 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266019672 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night.. < 1266019673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: I mean as in fundamental definitionerition < 1266019676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes yes < 1266019700 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking maybe "or" < 1266019701 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you are aware that they are entirely dual in boolean logic? < 1266019711 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which happens to be the inverse of nand < 1266019745 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in boolean logic -1*-1 = -1 < 1266019761 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boolean logic is a LIE taught by EVIL academics < 1266019763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of course < 1266019769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> pretty conjunction < 1266019769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊤ ∧ α) → α < 1266019769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊥ ∧ α) → ⊥ < 1266019773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where alpha is bold) < 1266019788 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm thinking that it'd actually be ...0101010101010101 recurring < 1266019790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'ma writa terma rewritinga systema, mamaa < 1266019795 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could be wrong, though < 1266019800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conjunction :: System < 1266019800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conjunction = < 1266019800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Set.fromList < 1266019800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [ Rewrite (Structure [Atom "⊤", Atom "∧", Free "α"]) $ Free "α" < 1266019800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : , Rewrite (Structure [Atom "⊥", Atom "∧", Free "α"]) $ Atom "⊥" ] < 1266019816 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, -1*-1 = 1 < 1266019817 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266019823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266019825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong symbol < 1266019825 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> hex(0xff*0xff) < 1266019825 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'0xfe01' < 1266019827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be V :) < 1266019836 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266019846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266019850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not wrong symbol < 1266019850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266019863 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ being and, IIRC < 1266019895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _do_ have this feeling and is more immediately useful though, since it allows you to collect hypotheses < 1266019903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually, I only need Free in the left-hand side < 1266019908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the right, it's just like any other rewriting rule < 1266019911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewriting to the value < 1266019940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a -> (b -> c)) <=> ((a & b) -> c) < 1266019960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, but the structures are almost identical < 1266019964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make them separate types is pure madness, aye < 1266019971 0 :jix!~jix@cyb0rg.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266020034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> pretty (Set.union conjunction disjunction) < 1266020034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊤ ∧ α) → α < 1266020034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊤ ∨ α) → ⊤ < 1266020034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊥ ∧ α) → ⊥ < 1266020034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊥ ∨ α) → α < 1266020041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where alpha is bold on the left-hand side) < 1266020049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting ordering there bob < 1266020089 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ack, it's Agda! Except actually probably not. < 1266020097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not, it's just a tree rewriting system. < 1266020108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conjunction :: System < 1266020108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conjunction = < 1266020108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Set.fromList < 1266020108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [ Rewrite (Structure [Atom "⊤", Atom "∧", Free "α"]) $ Atom "α" < 1266020108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : , Rewrite (Structure [Atom "⊥", Atom "∧", Free "α"]) $ Atom "⊥" ] < 1266020121 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What ever happened to rewriting arbitrary graphs? < 1266020123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so was trying that pokemon game. Got one question: how do you catch instead of fight? < 1266020131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You can do graphs with trees! < 1266020137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... < 1266020141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Go to the bag, choose a Pokeball >_< < 1266020146 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean you never played Pokemon before? < 1266020146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1266020147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a bloody realtime tutorial < 1266020150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, correct < 1266020153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't you watch it? :P < 1266020158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? in which one? < 1266020167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, someone goes hay i catch pokemon or something < 1266020170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I don't know < 1266020172 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I tried that; I ended up thinking for hours* and not ending up with anything. < 1266020172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Were you not a child in '98 or something? < 1266020174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever, enjoy the game, it's good < 1266020178 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Footnote. < 1266020191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, yeah, I was the nerd with glasses back then < 1266020201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well wait < 1266020205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was 1999 maybe < 1266020210 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It was "Oh, hey, let me teach you how to catch Pokemon!" < 1266020267 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I talked to that guy a lot in my Pokemon Blue playthrough. Hooray, Missingno glitch. < 1266020291 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266020300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> pretty (Set.unions [conjunction, disjunction, conditional]) < 1266020301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if ⊤ then β else γ) → β < 1266020301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if ⊥ then β else γ) → γ < 1266020301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊤ ∧ α) → α < 1266020301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊤ ∨ α) → ⊤ < 1266020301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊥ ∧ α) → ⊥ < 1266020303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(⊥ ∨ α) → α < 1266020318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I talked to that guy a lot in my Pokemon Blue playthrough. Hooray, Missingno glitch. <-- this was saphire or something like that..? < 1266020323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sapphire. < 1266020331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "main" GBA Pokemon game. < 1266020334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're all pretty much identical, though. < 1266020339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh? < 1266020343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blue. The Gameboy game. < 1266020368 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had a large number of exploitable bugs. < 1266020379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :missingno is beautiful < 1266020386 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Missingno was the best-known. < 1266020392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.utdallas.edu/~rxf023000/stuff/missingno.jpg < 1266020436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree rewriting is fun < 1266020474 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1266020495 0 :FIQ!~FIQ@unaffiliated/fiq JOIN :#esoteric < 1266020500 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266020516 0 :FIQ!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266020610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so basic rewriting steps: rewrite the outermost expression by matching it against rules; take the most specific (atoms rather than free variables) < 1266020632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bind any free variables, and repeat the whole process with the RHS of the rule < 1266020639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until no changes are made in one rewrite step < 1266020641 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1266020667 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you do tree rewriting < 1266020681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that < 1266020708 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266020711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's actually 5 forms of Missingno... < 1266020718 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about maude < 1266020721 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and CHR < 1266020754 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That monstrosity, the Kabutops fossil, the Aerodactyl Fossil, the Ghost, and this monstrosity: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:000Y.png < 1266020761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm lazy and want to do it stupidly < 1266020773 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last monstrosity Yellow-only, requires usage of the Mew glitch instead of the Old Man glitch. < 1266020774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, mine has unicode. < 1266020775 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1266020777 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266020779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bug fixed in Yellow) < 1266020793 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise im writing an algebra systems < 1266020798 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personal algebra sys < 1266020811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, my rewriter should be a monady function for the error handling < 1266020813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as it isn't a grammar systems < 1266020814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yield a list of rewrites < 1266020827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all you do is takewhile notidenticaltopreviousthingy on that to get the main reducer function < 1266020835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and last on that to get the normal form < 1266020838 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you mean at least isn't a grammar systems? < 1266020846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:08:29 I fail to see how much more wrong it is to having an undecidable type system, than to have an undecidable execution model, which is essentially a given. < 1266020850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language has neither! < 1266020871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:13:06 why not check the logs for when tusho was last seen <-- he calls himself uorygl these days < 1266020871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266020893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my vague recollection database needs some cleanup < 1266020898 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise how do you know a rewrite system terminates? < 1266020908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not *that* language < 1266020914 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I know a couple tricks < 1266020916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other one, which for want of a better name is aliselang for now < 1266020919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well _one_ of you better stop changing nick _all the time_ dammit! < 1266020923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: poo < 1266020924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alsie what about knuth-bendix completion < 1266020973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hm i also vaguely recall discussing that takewhile notidenticaltopreviousthingy on #haskell < 1266020998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably was involved. < 1266021007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as something people confuse with fix, and maybe if it should be added to some library (don't recall if it was) < 1266021012 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f your rewrite system is confluent fuck you < 1266021020 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that didn't come out right < 1266021021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either is a monad right < 1266021025 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either e < 1266021031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that until < 1266021032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yes < 1266021032 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266021033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: are you drunk btw :P < 1266021035 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the only monad I have left < 1266021039 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Either e, but e needs a typeclass < 1266021049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so it's not a monad in practice then < 1266021057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just love term rewriting < 1266021066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it is, it's just for fail it's needed < 1266021079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what typeclass thenny < 1266021087 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you writing thought < 1266021088 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you writing though < 1266021089 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1266021093 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you writing < 1266021097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a language < 1266021100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a little esolang < 1266021101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarpit < 1266021103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewriting tarpit < 1266021104 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coool < 1266021111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc but better since I made it < 1266021113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do everything better < 1266021120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Error < 1266021141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but i don't want to make Oops an Error < 1266021146 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not really an esolang?? < 1266021147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a perfectly acceptable errory snowflake by itself! < 1266021151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's a tarpit < 1266021152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarpits are esolangs < 1266021163 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean it's a tarpit? < 1266021168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's for converting error messages into e < 1266021174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc? < 1266021188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: fail should be in a separate typeclass :( < 1266021190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since e is intuitively the exceptional case < 1266021198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in Either e) < 1266021224 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's meant by a tarpi < 1266021228 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tarpit < 1266021229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: :| < 1266021238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a minimalistic language, that values minimalism above all else to the point of unusability < 1266021244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ideally, pure, condensed paradigm < 1266021250 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh like scheme? < 1266021255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266021264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme is usuable. < 1266021264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like brainfuck and underload. < 1266021265 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a joke :D < 1266021272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was suspecting either a joke or a troll < 1266021276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, you know, be nice alise < 1266021282 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Defcalc looks exactly like Q < 1266021282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K, Brainfuck, Underload, Unlambda... < 1266021290 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not really considered an esolang < 1266021294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and HQ9+. < 1266021305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's the little niceties and efficient evaluation that make a lang not an eso one < 1266021306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though not a *Turing* tarpit. Just a tarpit. :P) < 1266021317 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhh < 1266021319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typed tree rewriting would be nice, nice < 1266021325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also pure is q++ < 1266021329 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1266021341 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what tree rewrite programs do you do that aren't just functional programs? < 1266021347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependently-typed typed tree rewriting + magical efficient evaluation algorithm = i'll just go retire < 1266021355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well one you can do symbolic manipulation < 1266021359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's your CAS base right there < 1266021364 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1266021368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, of course < 1266021375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbolic evaluation == structure rewriting < 1266021376 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I switched from prolog to haskell because I wanted functions < 1266021392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two, you can do fancy syntax without any shit < 1266021414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you can distinguish literal atom and variable you can have ``(lambda x ^^ q / r) and okay`` as a rewrite rule < 1266021419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1266021437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only syntax you need is for defining rewrite rules, and parens < 1266021449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can even implement operator associativity/precedence yourself < 1266021455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + y + z = x + (y + z) < 1266021461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given = being rewrite < 1266021476 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay but I still don't really see it < 1266021477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for practical langs functional programming wins because you can evaluate it efficiently and the like < 1266021500 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do these langauges implementaitons do things like Knuth-Bendix completion on your input < 1266021528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i know of it's really pretty simple to implement < 1266021560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you grep the set of rewrite rules, pick the one with the least free variables that fits the term, add rewrite rules with the free variables to their corresponding parts of the expression, and replace w/ the RHS < 1266021563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rinse, lather, repeat < 1266021624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://q-lang.sourceforge.net/examples/symbolic.q an example of symbolic stuff w/ rewriting langs < 1266021699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also http://q-lang.sourceforge.net/examples/dnf.q < 1266021714 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw guys i implemented deflate in ruby < 1266021734 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266021749 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never really learned any more compression beyond arithmetic :( < 1266021753 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fairly easy once you've nailed the dynamic huffman coding < 1266021754 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is totally cool but it's kind of basic < 1266021765 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really its' just like dynamic huffman? < 1266021779 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones I never really got were the LZwhatevers < 1266021780 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dynamic huffman blocks are done in a very clever way < 1266021796 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's LZ77/LZSS after the huffman coding < 1266021813 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :366 lines baby \o/ < 1266021817 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that DNF is pretty much the only rewrite system I know :P < 1266021850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't take much brains to understand rewriting systems, makes sense quickly enough < 1266021873 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see the point of rewrite systems if they don't do a tremendous amount of analysis and derivation on your programs < 1266021876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to rewrite your brain a little < 1266021879 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would anyone bother if you don't? < 1266021936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because they're fun < 1266021936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolangs < 1266021937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric < 1266021940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's where you are < 1266021970 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read that whole book on All About Maude and I still don't really 'get it' < 1266022001 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just functional programming where functions are constructors < 1266022009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disagree < 1266022011 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's what the game is < 1266022023 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unify functions and constructors into one thing: So that the idea is much simpler < 1266022032 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's all just terms now (like prolog) < 1266022092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a lot simpler than prolog < 1266022104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no searching thru logicspace and whatnot :P < 1266022117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just dead simple match term against most specific rule, replace with RHS < 1266022185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, one useful extra rule (maybe) is to have (just inventing syntax here) a->b : c < 1266022189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do, for example < 1266022200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lambda x e) y = x -> y : e < 1266022206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., "with rule x -> y, e" < 1266022219 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but I mean < 1266022235 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the obvious approach is to just take the equations in the program and rewrite them iteratively < 1266022247 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is some algorithms, I think, which can improve it < 1266022266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, of course < 1266022268 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same answer (assuming a confluent system) < 1266022276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those are equivalent implementations, i.e. theoretically irrelevant < 1266022290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for purity and simplicity you look at the dumbest implementaiton < 1266022313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think my language is all confluent and that jazz < 1266022324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally tree rewriting systems leave io very simple and whatnot < 1266022325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do < 1266022327 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what happen if you do < 1266022333 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + y = y + x < 1266022336 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y + x = x + y < 1266022338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Q < 1266022357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x <- e; y = x (lambda e y) < 1266022371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x; y = x (thunk y) < 1266022379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you can do < 1266022387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "hi"; print "yo"; x <- getLine; print x < 1266022388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266022399 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh cool < 1266022414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print "hi" (thunk (print "yo" (thunk (getLine (lambda x (print x)))))) < 1266022419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, guess you need some sort of final terminator < 1266022426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x; = x (thunk nil) < 1266022430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that can reduce to say < 1266022445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :putc 'h' (putc 'i' ... etc < 1266022448 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is gonna reskim term rewriting and all that < 1266022460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when the getLine reduces, it all just turns into an inert structure < 1266022465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since you're inherently lazily evaluating it < 1266022470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because that's what term rewriting _is_, lazy) < 1266022476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can output and input as you go < 1266022497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you write a few terms inside the language, and have the runtime system just evaluate it and interpret a very very simple IO structure < 1266022504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have a syntactically-sugary IO system < 1266022512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really do that in the same way with functional langs < 1266022519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, term rewriting _is_ functional < 1266022521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you kniow what i mean < 1266022539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :term rewriting is lazy? < 1266022555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it can be < 1266022557 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you have two rules that go to different foobars < 1266022562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K x y = x < 1266022567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K x destroyEntireWorld -> x < 1266022570 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266022572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :destroyEntireWorld is never reduced < 1266022572 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266022577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but it MIGHT be ? < 1266022581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1266022598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my thought with confluence is you'd expect x + y to be the same if you eval x or y first < 1266022601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of K x (poop y) = ... < 1266022605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266022614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1266022618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's the same way as haskell is lazy < 1266022621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you gotta force sometime < 1266022630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's lazy enough to allow incremental io, is the point < 1266022729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know the word problem? < 1266022738 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get a 'word' in group theory like < 1266022744 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f*o*o*b*a*z < 1266022751 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you want to find out if it equals some other word < 1266022780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can only use the rules of group theory (the specific group might have certain new equivalences compared to an arbitrary group) < 1266022792 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is an undecidible problem but sometimes it is decidible < 1266022821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if you code that sort of thing into a rewrite system, like Q -- you will lose the declarative meaning of =, all = means in that case is LHS turns into RHS < 1266022828 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ? < 1266022881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266022884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so < 1266022908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if x then a else b) using 0/1 booleans: (a-b)x + b < 1266022914 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the idea you can specify a theory by equations, then it decides equality on it < 1266022918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/ iverson brackets: (a-b)[x] + b < 1266022957 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=1-[x=x] < 1266022983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that x=(1-[x=x])? < 1266022988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably for x = 0 or 1 < 1266022998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0=(1-1), yes, but 1 /= (1-1)... < 1266023025 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=[x=0] < 1266023067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, of course. < 1266023092 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1266023097 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266023110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously x=[x=0] < 1266023123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing as saying x = (x = true) < 1266023128 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is true? < 1266023133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. x is true iff x is true < 1266023134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's esoteric < 1266023139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, right < 1266023142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the negation of that < 1266023144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266023178 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, thank you Xstreet SL, for essentially removing my free competitors from the public eye < 1266023285 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't think of anything else than x=[x=0] < 1266023368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=[x=1] :P < 1266023372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is actually true for instance < 1266023703 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + Sum{i = 1..} [i <= x] = x < 1266023722 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smallest interesting number < 1266023737 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266023918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: remind me to define my own Eq that does alpha-conversion < 1266023923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(otherwise using Set is pointless) < 1266023983 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude < 1266023993 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use de bruijn indices!!!!!!!!! < 1266024009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266024011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i will. < 1266024012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i will < 1266024024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266024027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I won't < 1266024031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in the end, *all* atoms are variables < 1266024036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead of if foo then bar else xyz < 1266024040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd get 3 293 54 2 < 1266024258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: if i can actually get (dependent) typing onto a tree rewriting system < 1266024264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus an efficient method of evaluation < 1266024268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliselang will have changed completely < 1266024290 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1266024293 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an interesting thought < 1266024314 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing you don't have to worry about is pattern match coverage < 1266024354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1266024371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, interesting thing is that you can have a function of forall a. a -> ... < 1266024374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do actual meaningful processing < 1266024379 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's not functions < 1266024382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since it'd let you do any rewrite) < 1266024390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be a very different type system < 1266024394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only used to restrict rather than to relax < 1266024417 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah since you have stronger conversion than normal reduction that might be nice for type checking and proofs < 1266024433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reflective proving might be possible without quotation :o < 1266024478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing with a tree rewriting system is that values are never magically created < 1266024486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every value exists in stasis, because it's just an inert term < 1266024520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set N = { 0, S (x:N) } < 1266024528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then S : N -> N < 1266024542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but S wasn't created by doing that < 1266024550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just given a more restrictive type, and added to a set < 1266024556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266024561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its "result" was added to a set < 1266024564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the rule it self < 1266024602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sticks to the convention uppercase=free variable < 1266024671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set C = { (A:R) + (B:R) i } < 1266024693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think as long as x + (y i) isn't defined, i.e. i is inert and + doesn't match on it, that's perfectly fine < 1266024698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lets you say 2 + 3 i < 1266024711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, dunno how to do type inference < 1266024715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no barrier to a value being in two sets < 1266024812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: this is really interesting < 1266024827 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it is actually < 1266024829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set B = { 0, 1 } < 1266024835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set N = { 0, S (x:N) } < 1266024839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 1 is just sugar for S 0 < 1266024846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have < 1266024850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set B = { 0, S 0 } < 1266024853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm, sugar < 1266024854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set N = { 0, S (x:N) } < 1266024868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in B, S 0 I think would turn into S (0:B) < 1266024880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since S : a -> a would be defined before, i.e. < 1266024885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what type you make it, it never changes the type < 1266024892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we'd be able to infer that B is a subtype of N < 1266024905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd be able to take the factorial of true :-) < 1266024953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[true]! < 1266024978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[x] = x if you have 0, 1 as booleans < 1266024987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266025000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement optimisations inside the language!!! < 1266025009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map F (map G XS) = map (F . G) XS < 1266025029 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to make the biggest number I can out of iverson bracket using the fewest number of symbols < 1266025035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: guards would be nice, meaning "this only actually matches the terms if" < 1266025049 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, CHR has like < 1266025059 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head <=> guard | body. < 1266025072 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and guard is optional < 1266025080 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not a rewrite system < 1266025114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N ! | 0 < N < 2 = 1 < 1266025122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N ! | N >= 2 = N * (N-1) ! < 1266025130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way you could define N ! for negative N separately < 1266025146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if N < 0, those rules don't match < 1266025199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map F (XS ++ YS) = map F XS ++ map F YS < 1266025200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah < 1266025208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can literally translate haskell optimisation rules directly into tree rewriting ones < 1266025224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing more you need is a declaration specifying "this would be clever to do at compile-time" < 1266025229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe not even that given a sufficiently-smart compiler < 1266025261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I guess to infer types you need something like < 1266025268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 : B | N | ...tons of types... < 1266025300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like this i do, i do < 1266025309 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't make big numbers using the iverson bracket :( < 1266025321 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's stronger than mu!! this should be easy < 1266025323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love how you can just define < 1266025326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < y < z < 1266025328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :separately < 1266025339 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come it doesn't get confused with x < y? < 1266025350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's more specific, i.e. you have to add less stuff < 1266025357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a free variable (i.e. argument) counts as adding stuff < 1266025361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding parens counts as adding stuff < 1266025370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and adding parens is more serious than a free variable < 1266025379 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1266025382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can choose either x < y < z or x < (y < z), x < y < z wins < 1266025383 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's like object oriented < 1266025387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really :P < 1266025393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just part of the "pick the most specific rule" < 1266025439 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds like OO < 1266025465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso? < 1266025500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just to resolve ambiguous rules... if you have an x + y rule and an x + 0 rule, obviously you want to pick the latter; so you select the one with the least free variables < 1266025534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you have x < y < z, well X < Y < Z is a more specific rule than X < Y for that, we know this intuitively; and since the former would be x < (y < z) or (x < y) < z, we can say this as: pick the one that makes us add the least parentheses < 1266025548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X < Y < Z has one more free variable than X < Y, but the parens rule takes precedence over the free-variable rule in all cases < 1266025579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may just be a genius < 1266025614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: one issue with tree rewriting is that you can just add any old typo and it works as a variable name < 1266025617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's just an inert tree < 1266025628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can have a rule, say < 1266025632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the compiler) < 1266025656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any name not in a set or used in a rewrite rule that matches it triggers an error and halts compilation < 1266025668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you add some compiler decl to say "it's okay man" < 1266025780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: should work right? < 1266025785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90% of the time you'll work with typed stuff < 1266025797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, merd has those Foo | Bar types < 1266025810 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise these was an idea to use term rewriting in Coq < 1266025814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[the type of list [ 1, "foo" ] is a list of elements of type 1|"foo"]] < 1266025819 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266025821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like 0 + x --> x and x + 0 --> x < 1266025832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally the Int/Integer bullshit you get in haskell doesn't exist in this lang < 1266025839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Int would be a subset of Integer < 1266025843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interface would be like < 1266025857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set Int = { 0, 1, ... abignumber } < 1266025865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set Integer { 0, S (N:Integer) } < 1266025876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since 1 = S 0, 2 = S 1 = S (S 0), etc., they come out to be subsets < 1266025896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, it means that what's of type Int changes depending on the machine, which is worrying < 1266025898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps cool < 1266025905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs that will overflow just won't compile < 1266025931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm really liking this idea < 1266025966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm digging it are you digging it :| < 1266025967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DIG IT < 1266026004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, we can do currying with this thing < 1266026006 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is this turing complete? How can a compiler for a turing-complete language detect that something will happen? < 1266026022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x y can be (f x) y and rewrite just fine < 1266026027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the rewrite rule will have less parens, blah blah < 1266026029 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can a compiler really KNOW anything? < 1266026042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: because x+y : Int is only acceptable if x+y is of type Int < 1266026059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if Int is a finite set, given the definition of addition, we obviously know the top element < 1266026072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm tired < 1266026091 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May I assume that the compiler will complain even in cases where an overflow would never occur? < 1266026126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you couldn't define + : int -> int -> int i don't think < 1266026136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because what is maxint + maxint? < 1266026151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd have to be int -> int -> maybe int, or +overflowing : ... < 1266026225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Fortress' syntactic heresy < 1266026232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a[x] -> a_x especially < 1266026310 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortress is pretty cool looknig < 1266026311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: have you used texmacs? < 1266026312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking < 1266026317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks good, maybe a good editor for my lang < 1266026322 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I like texmacs though it's horribly slow to use < 1266026323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with its mathematically notation stuff < 1266026330 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some algebra systems in it which is nice < 1266026340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow is it? I'm installing it now so yeah < 1266026350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be so so so cool to use it for a programming language :P < 1266026361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if this goes well that is my plan :) < 1266026364 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want epigram mode in texmacs with all the coloring in < 1266026381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice fancy syntactical, typed tree-rewriting language < 1266026386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be so... lovely < 1266026444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will take some getting used to that (forall a b. a -> b) can actually have some meaningful values, though < 1266026446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1266026453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :frobnicate 0 = 72 < 1266026460 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up rewriting on wikipedia -- there is a Philosophy section < 1266026468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :frobnicate "a" = [00,"haberdashery"] < 1266026472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :frobnicate X = X < 1266026474 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Philosophy of term rewriting: What does it mean for a term to be rewritten? < 1266026478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1266026486 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At what point does a term cease to exist? < 1266026545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing aliselang was missing was the CAS < 1266026550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding symbolic stuff seemed like an afterthought < 1266026557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if I can blend Agda and Q/Pure, well, why the fuck not < 1266026599 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love sites like this http://rewriting.loria.fr/ < 1266026615 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the moment you see that banner you know the authors of this site LOVE term rewriting < 1266026624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266026649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :methinks a functionalish type system for a term rewriting language will be way different to anything the haskellers have ever seen < 1266026659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, if you have a rule (foo X Y), that doesn't mean that foo : that < 1266026668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, you need syntax as part of the types < 1266026672 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :principle typing < 1266026673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GONE < 1266026710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1266026714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you want the analogue of < 1266026718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply :: (a -> b) -> a -> b < 1266026721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be < 1266026744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming that by (a -> b) < 1266026747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we want a rewriting term < 1266026749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not some lambda structure < 1266026753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, apply apply should be acceptable < 1266026787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply (x | x A : B) A : B < 1266026788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1266026793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's not just a -> b < 1266026797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be x ? y : z < 1266026799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then x A wouldn't work < 1266026812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you couldn't pass it as-is because it doesn't have one name < 1266026843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, the sane thing to do is just to have (λ(X Y Z) X ? Y : Z) :P < 1266026924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, one thing's for sure < 1266026927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this language won't be more of the same... < 1266026941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're so used to thinking of applying function-values to other values < 1266026953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but first class rules is a damn interesting idea < 1266026986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortress's automatic parallelisation is sweet < 1266026994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's really easy with term rewriting i think < 1266027005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's literally just splitting the evaluation of a term if you deem it good < 1266027113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: another thing tree rewriting languages can do: invert functions < 1266027121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what?? < 1266027122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since lambdas have their contents exposed, you just fiddle about a bit < 1266027124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not all functions obviously < 1266027125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i mean < 1266027128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in haskell functions are opaque < 1266027130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you have < 1266027136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set A -> B = { Lam ... } < 1266027138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a term language < 1266027146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their bodies are just inert blah blahs < 1266027151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can rewrite them as usual < 1266027175 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~nachumd/rewrite/index.html lol this page as tags term rewriting enthusiasts are crazy < 1266027336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have a term like < 1266027337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266027340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll just give an example < 1266027343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N ! = ... < 1266027355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doc (N !) = "blah blah blah" < 1266027357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could do < 1266027362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doc (3 !) and get factorial's docs < 1266027364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or doc (n !) < 1266027365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266027373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the type would be < 1266027388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doc : forall a b. a -> (String | b) < 1266027393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the | b being implicit i guess < 1266027397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since if you have undefined cases < 1266027402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like doc "a chicken" < 1266027406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll just return doc "a chicken" < 1266027409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd just write it as < 1266027412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doc : forall a. a -> String < 1266027522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing's for sure < 1266027526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeXmacs is beautiful < 1266027533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love computer modern < 1266027615 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I like it < 1266027687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.unm.edu/~mccune/sobb2/ < 1266027826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha 2 \over2 in TeXmacs shows as 2 0.5 < 1266027861 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to WinDirStat < 1266027898 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90MB of free space o.O < 1266027970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wow texmacs is nice, why do people use silly things like lyx < 1266027999 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't actually write TeX :D < 1266028016 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I j ust wanted it for a GUI < 1266028046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tex is convenient for quick mathematical stuff, though < 1266028057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uses paper < 1266028064 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I should learn LaTeX < 1266028064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less quick than that :P < 1266028066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean quick to input < 1266028072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, why write A[N] when you can write A_N eh < 1266028244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly what I really want is you type A[ and see A(subscript cursor) < 1266028259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you type N and see A(subscript N with some sort of red cursor to the right indicating "incomplete") < 1266028266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you type ] and the cursor gets big again and non-red < 1266028487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to have italic lowercase names as vars in the viewing form of my lang because it's prettier but it creates a bad clashing with the Foo syntax of the ascii form :( < 1266028856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what do you think of literate programming? < 1266028893 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I LIKE it < 1266028921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but do you LIKE IT like it? < 1266028932 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266028935 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does Chrome hate Reddit so? < 1266028936 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100% < 1266028955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Then what do you think of TeXmacs literate programming where a non-literate program just happens to be entirely within an equations block?! < 1266028968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literacy for all! < 1266029062 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally i think only literates should be allowed to program < 1266029311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: agree or disagree: fortress sticks a little *too* close to mathematical notation < 1266029323 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue .. < 1266029331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo it does; it even uses |x| for abs < 1266029339 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I hate |x| < 1266029355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hear hear. < 1266029363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of the time, mathematical notation sucks < 1266029370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there isn't really any underlying rules, at all < 1266029378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just invent domain-specific notation, regardless of any clashes < 1266029398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many of the ideas in mathematical notation are decent. < 1266029408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, it clashes a *lot*. < 1266029847 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now has 15.2GB free :D < 1266029860 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Removing Portal and Team Fortress from my HD really helped < 1266029924 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-172-6-94.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266029988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266029997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how easy is it to get real LaTeX to render in realtime, I wonder? < 1266030004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complete expressions, just... really quickly and incrementally < 1266030044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And that, friends, is how I solved the Halting Problem." --Conor McBride < 1266030225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I think I prefer having set C = {Foo (a:R) (b:R)} < 1266030228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then having < 1266030237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i as a separate thing < 1266030243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that a + bi can be a + b*i < 1266030250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... is having juxtaposition as multiplication really something I want? < 1266030271 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not! < 1266030278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266030283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but otherwise, a + bi looks ugly < 1266030286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i has to be in text < 1266030289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because italics = variable) < 1266030297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get itaaaalic bSTRAIGHT i < 1266030483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so, that's one problem with tree rewriting systems < 1266030491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable vs atom < 1266030515 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1266030520 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it a problem? < 1266030528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if x then y else z < 1266030532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to mark the variables right? < 1266030533 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome hates Reddit :( < 1266030534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if X then Y else Z < 1266030536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the LHS of a rule < 1266030541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then when you go to define complex numbers < 1266030551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set C = {(A:R)+(B:R)i} < 1266030557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your wonderful function working on complex numbers < 1266030559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has to say < 1266030564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A + B i) < 1266030568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is fine in ascii, absolutely fine < 1266030582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when you go into TeX-esque land, < 1266030594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think hey, it'd be nice if italics = variable and roman = literal < 1266030599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, that's how mathematics is usually typeset < 1266030600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266030601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get < 1266030603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + bi < 1266030605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rendered as < 1266030610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :italic a + italic bSTRAIGHT i < 1266030619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it looks unnatural and weird < 1266030620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you are sad < 1266030658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe I'm crazy and it's fine < 1266030705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: one thing I'd like is to have two definitions of types, functions etc < 1266030717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is the equational definition, which is the simplest, purest form; inefficient as hell < 1266030719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one is the runtime definition < 1266030731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is used for everything but the actual crunch time, making inferring things, etc. easier < 1266030984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is stupid how little fancy stuff today's languages have < 1266031149 0 :rodgort`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1266031284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int64? bah. more like \mathbb{N}_{64} < 1266031292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: actually i think i is usually typeset as a variable < 1266031299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: exactly, but you can't < 1266031302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's not a variable < 1266031308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's part of the syntax of the rewriting rule < 1266031320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could define set C = { boring stuff } and have i be a separate variable, I guess < 1266031326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you wouldn't be able to pattern match on it < 1266031329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is lame < 1266031390 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266031431 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by < 1266031506 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266032793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a bonus, you also get "constructors with equations" for free. E.g., suppose that we want lists to automagically stay sorted and eliminate duplicates. In Pure we can do this by simply adding the following equations for the : constructor: < 1266032794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x:y:xs = y:x:xs if x>y; x:y:xs = x:xs if x==y; < 1266032794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> [13,7,9,7,1]+[1,9,7,5]; < 1266032794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,5,7,9,13] < 1266032796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure is so cool < 1266032798 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266033425 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266033751 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is rather cool. < 1266033808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinkin' < 1266033811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typed term rewriting < 1266033813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next big thing? < 1266034239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1266034297 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266034318 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266034413 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What we need is a typechecker for Thue. < 1266034443 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and T::=T < 1266034447 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oi, what? I don't think so." < 1266035049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: \mathbb{Z}_32. Bit-specified integers have never looked so classy. < 1266035088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*_{32} < 1266035109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heh. < 1266035177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: shaddup < 1266035196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that would be 5 bits, not 32 with usual meaning < 1266035281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I forgot stupid mathematicians overloaded it < 1266035283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiots :P < 1266035294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1266035297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathbb{Z}_{2^{32}} right? < 1266035304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266035304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's just even classier. < 1266035332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n \textnormal{bits} = 2^n < 1266035337 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just sent for a self-test kit to go on a bone marrow donor registry < 1266035343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathbb{Z}_{32 \textnormal{bits}} < 1266035347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: aiee the pain < 1266035348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow ow ow < 1266035372 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure there won't be any pain unless I end up actually donating < 1266035374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\times or \cdot for the standard multiplication operation, I wonder? < 1266035377 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even then, it's worth it < 1266035377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\cdot is lighter < 1266035388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\times is more... timesy < 1266035392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION really hopes Sgeo doesn't have to get an actual bone marrow sample for the test < 1266035403 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I doubt that would be a self-test. < 1266035404 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a cheek swab < 1266035421 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh not even drawing blood? pussies! < 1266035421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Coated with sulfuric acid! < 1266035429 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1266035478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so, get with the \times? < 1266035479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out how to tell LyX to add more spacing in between the equations < 1266035515 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't it better to convey semantic meaning? < 1266035529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't change the fact that the output is ugly because it's too close together < 1266035567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, god, \textnormal{set }\mathbb{Q}&=\left\{ \frac{n:\mathbb{Z}}{d:\mathbb{Z}}\right\} may just have been the most beautiful thing I've written in my entire life < 1266035575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, should it be \textnormal{set } or \textnormal{set}\ ? < 1266035581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266035761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266035766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set Q = {(N:Z)/(D:Z)} < 1266035766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A/B) + (C/D) = ((A*D) + (B*C)) / (B*D) < 1266035766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A/B) * (C/D) = (A*C) / (B*D) < 1266035767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266035773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\textnormal{set }\mathbb{Q}&=\left\{ \frac{n:\mathbb{Z}}{d:\mathbb{Z}}\right\} \\\frac{a}{b}+\frac{c}{d}&=\frac{(a\times d)+(b\times c)}{b\times d}\\\frac{a}{b}\times\frac{c}{d}&=\frac{a\times c}{b\times d} < 1266035790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just imagine something terribly pretty) < 1266035811 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Render it and put it online and show us! < 1266035821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to, but I can't get LyX to space it out some more! < 1266035886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There; using the principle of the Most Horrific Hack, I just added dummy lines in-between. < 1266035894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: \textnormal{set }foo or \textnormal{set}\ foo? < 1266035923 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1266035945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1266035959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will set always be used with a space after? < 1266035971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise the second seems more logical < 1266036107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the syntax we're expressing is "set NAME = {...}" < 1266036108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is set a command or a part of "set Q"? < 1266036111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266036119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set as in a set set < 1266036120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in a type < 1266036125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to "set var = val" < 1266036127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case it would be more logical to have set _outside_ the math < 1266036140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, but it's in an equation block thingy < 1266036144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose that may not ... right < 1266036175 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why \textnormal and not \mbox < 1266036202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, i'm really completely clueless with latex ::) < 1266036204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) < 1266036218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess the spacing may be slightly different and superioer with set}\ < 1266036222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to italic/roman differences < 1266036286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1266036288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need somewhere to dump this pdf < 1266036319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just cannot recall using \textnormal before. not that he recalls all of latex anyhow. < 1266036498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: you have some sort of dumping ground webspace right? < 1266036742 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes < 1266036758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got 68 kilos free for a wonderful little pdf? :{ < 1266036762 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1266036778 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I'm sure you could use Normish if you wanted < 1266036796 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be happy to put it on on diagonalfish < 1266036931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know if my Normish account still... exists. < 1266036997 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think normish accounts die < 1266037010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Normish exist? < 1266037010 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But normish.org isn't working. THe IP addy is in #rootnomic < 1266037031 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Topic for #rootnomic is: If connecting to normish.org doesn't work, try its IP address: 209.20.80.194 < 1266037173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/alise/Q.pdf < 1266037177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which a delight taking the form, < 1266037177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set Q = {(N:Z)/(D:Z)} < 1266037177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A/B) + (C/D) = ((A*D) + (B*C)) / (B*D) < 1266037178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A/B) * (C/D) = (A*C) / (B*D) < 1266037179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is experienced. < 1266037255 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels useful < 1266037315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More useful than a hedgehog. < 1266037610 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not ... SONIC the Hedgehog?! < 1266037643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's not actually a hedgehog. Evidence: He doesn't look like a hedgehog, his speed isn't that of a hedgehog, he can't swim but hedgehogs can, and he can talk. < 1266037914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you _sure_ he cannot swim? maybe he's a witch! < 1266037941 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's get some ducks and compare weights. < 1266037990 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen any evidence that he can't swim. < 1266038010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i knew it! burn the witch! < 1266038088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the code is slightly misleading < 1266038108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that you can have no other x/y or \frac{x}{y} of a type other than Q without clarifying the argument types in the +/* rules < 1266038134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also sense a division by zero. < 1266038176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom is a division by zero < 1266038206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway x/0 will work perfectly fine so long as you don't try and do anything with it :P < 1266038223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1266038229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :term rewriting, oerjan < 1266038231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :term rewriting < 1266038252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok admittedly I'll probably have X/0 = some error < 1266038272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm rather certain x/0 works just fine so long as it's not evaluted in Haskell. ;) < 1266038280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evaluated, even. < 1266038291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X/0 = error 'zero denominator' < 1266038296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where '...' = atom quoting < 1266038296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're going to get trouble if you want to do theorem proving on that Q, though < 1266038299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. foo = 'foo' < 1266038306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well it's term rewriting, so you don't need to < 1266038309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you solve it anyway < 1266038320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have another set instead of Z as the denominator < 1266038329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set YeOldeZ = {1,2,...} < 1266038363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i wasn't sure if you had left dependent types behind at the moment < 1266038368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a separate language < 1266038427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the two will merge; meet at the twain of betwixted befuddlement; aye, such a language would be a grand affair; or even grandiose; or more superlative experiences, but I digress, for the only truly thing in this world is that one be dependently typ'd and all that entails and the other be typ'd but, alas and yet yey, a rolling roaring proof-addict-not system of rewriting terms; so nilly-willy! < 1266038435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's 5:20 am and I need sleep < 1266038524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep or loquacious prose, that's the question < 1266038590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insert some off-the-cuff pun about country matters; for in times of reference, great great wars of reference, it seems side-references of great punnery are the only resort; recourse; holiday resort, aye, that would be a place to be < 1266038619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT! AND! IF! IS! THE! WHAT! Never to be never to be said the bee; I'll never be a bee who'll never be one never to be never to be; thus spoke the bee. < 1266038621 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course a recourse < 1266038640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if the bee was never to be would a never-bee be a bee? Or would a never-bee never be a bee, much less in a bee's holiday resort? < 1266038653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eric the half a bee! < 1266038682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, close anyhow < 1266038689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what of the woodchuck, friend of the never-bee? How much never-bee wood would a woodchuck, friend of never-bee, chuck, if a woodchuck, never to be a never-bee; like the never-bee, who is never to be never to be a never-bee; could chuck never-bee wood? < 1266038765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 5 tonnes. < 1266038801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND HOW! As this 5:24 dawns the sound or silence of sleep as a propositional idea, presenting itself so sweetly, does nimble onto my tongue and lips and mind, but though I ignore it it presses at me, and yet this activity - of perhaps drunken in a way but only on unsleep (can it be said to be an entity? Certainly we cannot say such because it is the lack of an entity, but Douglas Adams had no problem with an item called no tea in his game) - portraying a vi < 1266038801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew of insanity that somehow delicately dances on the thinking organs and amuses one so great as to flutter and carbonise the world, aye, that'd be it. < 1266038866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you are just abusing the fact we cannot call you insane here < 1266038866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye I do realise that the use of the word aye pr'haps verges on cliche now, but fuck you; no seriously, not as a joke, fuck you. all the insects are all like < 1266038868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK YOU < 1266038873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND THEY ARE COMING < 1266038876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEY ARE COMING FOR YOU < 1266038879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUCK < 1266038883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y O O U U U U U O UO U U < 1266038885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :U O O ---- < 1266038886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : O < 1266038888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : O < 1266038889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : o < 1266038890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O fui < 1266038891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : O < 1266038892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuc < 1266038895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you K k < 1266038899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND THEN < 1266038902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n < 1266038903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : o < 1266038904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t < 1266038907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : h < 1266038909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i < 1266038911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n < 1266038913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : g < 1266038916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : . < 1266038939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure there's somewhere that would publish that. < 1266038950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signed, < 1266038951 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for a small fee, anyhow. < 1266038958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.E. Cummingtonites < 1266039006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALTOIDS HAVE YOU ANY IDEA STRONG HOW THEY ARE? < 1266039015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you release the woooooooooooorld < 1266039055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :release the world and breathe free < 1266039078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :receive everything < 1266039080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just fire but EVERYTHING < 1266039083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, not everything < 1266039084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but EVERYTHING < 1266039086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the THINGS < 1266039088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can REALISE < 1266039090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are NOT endless < 1266039094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are unequivocable < 1266039144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out bitches, i'm out, i'm totally out, but just for a day hey hey i'll be baaaaaaaack again another day < 1266039147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to send all my bullshit your way < 1266039160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus ends, thus ends, thus ends, the world not with a bang but with a whimper the worst song ever created. < 1266039189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whew < 1266039202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT WAIT < 1266039202 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? < 1266039203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THERE'S MORE < 1266039212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT YOU SAID IT ENDED < 1266039213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOUR UNCLE IS SECRETLY A WHORE < 1266039215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I LIED < 1266039216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DIED < 1266039217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I CRIED < 1266039219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ESPIED < 1266039222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagic < 1266039223 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Order my uncle now? < 1266039226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the aiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiir < 1266039231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peaaaaaaaaaar < 1266039240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derriere < 1266039249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :antelopesque < 1266039250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kicks alise's derriere < 1266039252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kafkaesque < 1266039254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same bloody thing < 1266039255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RING A DING DING < 1266039260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop < 1266039263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND LOZENGES < 1266039265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop < 1266039269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop, poop AND LOZENGES < 1266039275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOZENGES, poop poop and poop < 1266039278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spam, LOZENGES, and poop < 1266039284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye. < 1266039308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think a comparison to vogon poetry is appropriate at this point. < 1266039336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vogons don't drink lozenges < 1266039342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't inhale spam < 1266039346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a valid comparison, you lose < 1266039354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they _exhale_ spam. close enough. < 1266039375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't make me kill your fam', spam-hugging man. < 1266039385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i was going to say vogon poetry didn't reach to your knees, here < 1266039395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're _far_ worse < 1266039401 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1266039422 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266039456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your knees? cheese < 1266039459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck the authority, please < 1266039470 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the topic of esoteric languages: < 1266039472 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised that Boat should be turing complete < 1266039473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bee's knees, in this case < 1266039480 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guys verify this? < 1266039485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boats are turing complete, hoist the sails < 1266039489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH NO IT'S SINKING < 1266039492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grab the wooden pails < 1266039493 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they aren't < 1266039497 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nuclear submarines are < 1266039502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NUCLEAR FUCKING DEATH < 1266039502 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because c is a nuclear submarine < 1266039506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH < 1266039510 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we all know that c is the only programming language ever < 1266039529 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for python < 1266039535 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but python is a scripting language < 1266039537 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't count < 1266039558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goat < 1266039566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, we all know that Haskell is the only language. < 1266039566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahahaha goat < 1266039571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything else is a poor imitation. < 1266039577 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell and C are the same thing < 1266039578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this what being high is like, i should just sleep less often < 1266039581 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the two calculuses < 1266039582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not now, now i should sleep < 1266039587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. < 1266039599 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1266039604 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the two calculuses < 1266039605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what was that a yes to < 1266039611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hallucinations should start after 48 hours awake. < 1266039615 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C and Haskell have fundamental differences < 1266039617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "Is this what being high is like" < 1266039621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to know < 1266039629 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C and Haskell are coded utterly differently < 1266039630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to Florence Nightingale the turtlefish < 1266039640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know what i don't mean < 1266039656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: That's because Haskell makes abstraction easy. < 1266039661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And C makes abstraction a bitch. < 1266039669 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can do abstraction in C < 1266039677 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's my whole coding style < 1266039678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's difficult. < 1266039681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can eat an anus < 1266039684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mean it's easy < 1266039684 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the only way < 1266039685 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I < 1266039686 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can < 1266039687 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code C < 1266039691 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, caffiene < 1266039693 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best drug < 1266039694 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVER < 1266039694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell, each and every function makes a new abstraction. < 1266039696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DON'T YOU WANT SOMEBODY TO ABSTRACT < 1266039699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DON'T YOU NEED SOMEBODY TO ABSTRACT < 1266039706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WOULDN'T YOU ABSTRACT SOMEBODY TO ABSTRACT < 1266039709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU BETTER FIND SOMEBODY TO ABSTRACT < 1266039712 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Go for 78 hours without sleep < 1266039713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Well, yeah. That is a sane way to code. < 1266039714 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with caffiene < 1266039715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abstract a rabbit < 1266039717 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :godle < 1266039720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: meh < 1266039720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Abstractions make code easier. < 1266039728 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266039731 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Boat < 1266039738 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you guys confirm if this is turing complete? :< < 1266039743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop linking or i will never leave < 1266039750 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266039753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove it identical to brainfuck or lambda calculus < 1266039760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All memory addressing is treated as big endian < 1266039762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no bignums? < 1266039763 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should be able to implement brainfusk < 1266039767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed size pointers you mean? < 1266039767 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bignums? < 1266039769 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arras < 1266039770 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arrays < 1266039778 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can store pointers in a fixed point in memory < 1266039778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 64-bit? < 1266039780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :128-bit? < 1266039782 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also point to pointers! < 1266039783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or infinity-bit? < 1266039784 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266039786 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :casting < 1266039789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which < 1266039791 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can cast to any number of bits < 1266039792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have infinity-bit < 1266039799 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is infinity a number? < 1266039802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including 93847589347539847589347598347589347589345893457894375893475843957349853489534759? < 1266039804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant < 1266039814 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CANT INFINITY < 1266039817 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOLP < 1266039824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well here i was thinking you were asking a question < 1266039830 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am < 1266039831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you were answering mine i'd tell you whether it's tc < 1266039837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: but can you use an unbounded number of bits in the same program? otherwise you might have problems using unbounded memory < 1266039840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i have a 409573498573984572398463874751834957298357287589175817346581732568714658734658745345-bit number < 1266039840 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can store a pointer in negitive addressing < 1266039845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :answer that < 1266039850 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and add/subreact to the addressing < 1266039852 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes alise < 1266039860 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use the pointer as normal < 1266039862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it have flow control < 1266039874 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have if tests and while loops and 2D goto < 1266039884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80% probability of tc < 1266039900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_if_ you have unbounded memory < 1266039911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if he has such big pointers and they work it's unbounded prolly < 1266039916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: I'm pretty sure that's TC. < 1266039928 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1266039983 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q[n]access memory at address q with n bits in size -- you could see 32[30] which would access the long integer at addresses 27, 28, 29, and 30. Yeah, it's big endian, but that might change as this goes. I guess I could get away call this as a special case for an array of bits. < 1266040020 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"+" = `a`[`b`] = `a`[`b`] + 1, "-" = `a`[`b`] = `a`[`b`] - 1, ">" = `b` = `b`+1, "<" = `b` = `b`-1, "[ ... ]" = %(`a`[`b`] != 0){ ... } < 1266040026 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, proved it's TC. < 1266040032 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266040041 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have variables anymore < 1266040046 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(q[n])[y]use value of size n at address q as an address for a value size y -- I need a better way to do this < 1266040069 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :halp < 1266040076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: how do you use unlimited memory in a single program < 1266040087 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :malloc < 1266040097 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you have malloc? < 1266040104 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but < 1266040106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a boring conventional ish language then < 1266040107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yawn :P < 1266040113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh fun consequence of my language < 1266040115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hex literal: < 1266040120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEADBEEF[16] < 1266040122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you figure out why? < 1266040127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: array indexing < 1266040130 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interpreter should allocate as much memory as the program asks for, dynamically < 1266040137 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if it comes to a pointer to 0x5000 < 1266040148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: i am of course asking how you _refer_ to unlimited memory if bit sizes must be given < 1266040151 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it used to have a pointer to -0x50 < 1266040169 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you should have a 0x5050 sized memory array < 1266040175 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it handles memory just like BF does < 1266040198 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that or I don't understand what you're asking < 1266040201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite tape? < 1266040204 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266040208 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite tape < 1266040215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving backwards and forwards? < 1266040220 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266040221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you tell me < 1266040224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c'mon, before I sleep :| < 1266040229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hex literal: < 1266040229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : DEADBEEF[16] < 1266040229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : can you figure out why? < 1266040229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hint: array indexing < 1266040232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1266040243 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266040257 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I need a better way to refer to pointers < 1266040258 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it < 1266040259 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1266040260 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Uh. < 1266040266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hint: mathematical notation < 1266040272 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refer to an address with a value inside of an address < 1266040294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You're just specifying the base? < 1266040311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes... < 1266040337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm being dense ATM. < 1266040341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should go to bed soon, myself. < 1266040374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay, I'll just tell you. < 1266040379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEADBEEF_{16} < 1266040383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has it clicked yet? < 1266040399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grraaaw. < 1266040401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1266040416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a[n] = array indexing = a_{n} < 1266040421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo_{base} = mathematical notation = a[n]! < 1266040423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266040434 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it < 1266040447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: you are a clever person, you win < 1266040449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at something < 1266040452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just < 1266040452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win! < 1266040456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jumping from math notation to programming notation and back hurts. < 1266040460 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that almost < 1266040463 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I get something else < 1266040478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :totally 0 days since last anyone sighting. 'part from hcf, 2583 and a bit days. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1266040483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoyoyoyo sleep < 1266040484 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll adress memory character 0xF00(16) instead of 0xF00[16] < 1266040486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeya tomorrow bitchnizzles < 1266040488 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1266040500 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(q[n])[y]use value of size n at address q as an address for a value size y -- I need a better way to do this < 1266040515 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q(n)(y) < 1266040520 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q[n][m]array with segments the size of n with the "origin" data value being at address q - with big endian, again. < 1266040524 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q(n)[m] < 1266040542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly it should be 16[DEADBEEF] < 1266040563 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or actually < 1266040567 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q < 1266040601 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait those are my direction commands < 1266040606 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll change those < 1266040640 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck < 1266040645 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ran out of closing characters < 1266040656 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using all of ({[< for other things already < 1266040674 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"' too < 1266040683 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266040689 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266040865 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you can't use {} in the middle fo expressions or calls < 1266040907 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1266040939 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have other idea for esolang based on the C-preprocessor, after it unquote strings it will run it through the preprocessor again, and then it will continue over and over again...... < 1266040955 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until there's nothing left? < 1266041028 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess so. < 1266041217 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266042087 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION misread alise as ais523 at least twice in the scrollup < 1266042105 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, erm, e's not awake. Hope e has pings silenced < 1266042110 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or isn't at the computer < 1266042752 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-39-127.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266042939 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266043391 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 does not appear to be connected < 1266043692 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That has what, exactly, to do with confusing anyone, or pinging al!se? < 1266043706 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1266043710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, didn't mean to get snippy < 1266043721 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's OK. < 1266045978 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v < 1266045999 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, you're right, it's the weekend again, neat < 1266046007 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is still a little charged with Olympic fever < 1266046014 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, by v, I meant Night all < 1266046032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266046036 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey alise! < 1266046038 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was copying/pasting to some channels < 1266046121 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: /Deframentation time. Good night < 1266046146 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1266046437 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-44-70.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266046620 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266046977 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266047255 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266047392 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266047999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266048000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266048064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266048248 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1266052411 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266052849 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266053357 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-64-171.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266053565 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266055260 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266055919 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-15-2.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266058236 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266058527 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266058800 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266060323 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: reboot < 1266060676 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266060977 0 :lieuwe!~kvirc@a62-251-101-217.adsl.xs4all.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1266061011 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266062118 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266064830 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266066151 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com ) < 1266066456 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266068531 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266068671 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee, eBash results page seems to hang browser real good. 100% CPU usage, and it doesn't even react to killing its X connection (xkill). < 1266069230 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266069422 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266069673 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266070072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266070289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides he wants ℵ_0 as a value in his language, just because it's cool. < 1266070309 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266070355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION also decides to use ⟨a,b⟩ as his tuple (or list?) syntax; he is well and truly off the deep end now. < 1266070388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I like it < 1266070391 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I lik that! except remove the commas < 1266070397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1266070398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⟨a b c d e⟩ < 1266070402 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ SEX ON WHEELS < 1266070430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⟨Foo "goatee", Bar "emasculate"⟩ < 1266070446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is far too common to make uglier as ⟨(Foo "goatee") (Bar "emasculate")⟩ < 1266070470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and more confusing; is that ⟨( or (( or ⟨⟨ or (⟨?) < 1266070483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they look more different in latex at bigger sizes, yes, but still < 1266070693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266070748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(S : a -> a) seems too relaxed < 1266070761 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(s : s -> s) < 1266070771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it simply means that whatever rules you add to S, the only restriction is that they take a value of one type and return the same < 1266070781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but (a -> a) is "anything to anything" < 1266070784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which simply isn't true < 1266070967 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266071096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is set Z = {n:N, -(n:N)} a good "theoretical" definition, do you think? < 1266071118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the set Z contains values of type N, and -(a value of type N). < 1266071120 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what context < 1266071128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would never read a log < 1266071133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a proglang I'm inventing that's pretty unique for once < 1266071139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :term rewriting, just so you hate it :) < 1266071143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but typed term rewriting < 1266071146 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what i'm doing < 1266071148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty smexy < 1266071149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess! < 1266071152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logreading < 1266071155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i do love smex < 1266071156 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1266071171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smexing? < 1266071177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh definitely not < 1266071205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's just say i hate parsing < 1266071216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, in set theory N u {0} u -N works, but in type theory seems better to use binary numbers < 1266071219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should learn to use some parsing tool < 1266071222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably a human < 1266071225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who can read my mind < 1266071233 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise just in terms of getting good algorithms < 1266071235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you mean to define N or Z? < 1266071243 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z < 1266071243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z < 1266071251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, well, this is part of my grand plan to have "semantic definitions" and "runtime definitions" < 1266071274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., you define a really mathematically pure N + operations, and then a gnarly, perhaps even unsafe set of N definition + operations; maybe even in C or whatever < 1266071283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former holds for all compile-time reasoning, and the latter holds at runtime < 1266071295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, having them be equivalent is... not really enforceable < 1266071313 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is doable if you're drunk enough < 1266071317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but term rewriting is so pie-in-the-sky as far as performance goes that having pure-but-inefficient definitions doesn't *really* matter :) < 1266071324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really?? < 1266071332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really what? < 1266071339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i know you have some ideas for making it faster < 1266071345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I know is the really dumbtarded algorithm :) < 1266071384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know term rewriting rhymes with sperm rewriting < 1266071409 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could someone please write this parser for me < 1266071432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to tell texmacs "center this text block but have the text left-aligned" < 1266071446 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like explaining math to a monkey < 1266071529 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266071534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realized this is trivial to parse < 1266071544 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the guy who made this language is a genius < 1266071592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what lang < 1266071597 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clü < 1266071603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you're CODING?! < 1266071625 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1266071642 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i even like some of it, unfortunately i'm too tired to do anything complicated enough that i'd enjoy it. < 1266071657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm maybe i should have my fundamental definition of Q be the Stern-Brocot tree < 1266071665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise i have 1/2 and 2/4 < 1266071684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a/b aka \frac{a}{b} should be : R -> R -> Q < 1266071720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you could use the john gabriel tree for the definition of R < 1266071743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R -> R -> Q? < 1266071779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're a mathman. < 1266071918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches alise turn in her grave as he writes a separate tokenizer < 1266071968 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you used to consider that a sin, methinks < 1266071982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least unless you're writing your parser manually < 1266072363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i'm so much of a mathman that the preferred representation for the language actually has them in blackboard bold < 1266072434 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just wondering about the types < 1266072461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do know R is closed under division (well almost)? < 1266072468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm < 1266072480 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not actually what we need here < 1266072496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but clearly for all elements division by them is a surjection < 1266072506 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to R < 1266072524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait wait < 1266072528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we talking about this < 1266072528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://knol.google.com/k/john-gabriel/are-real-numbers-uncountable/nz742dpkhqbi/10# < 1266072530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :john gabriel < 1266072540 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah he's my idol < 1266072548 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's one total dude < 1266072574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, if you use R in your programs < 1266072579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll get an approximation by default < 1266072595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you want to sacrifice equality checking, I guess < 1266072601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you answer: did you suggest R -> R -> Q as the type of division < 1266072613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, as one type of division < 1266072622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, what you'd use to construct Qs < 1266072631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that the internal constructor wouldn't be exposed < 1266072653 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just contruct the Q from one R < 1266072694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well unless R's play some sorta special role < 1266072711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 5 :: R and shit < 1266072725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why just one R? < 1266072737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously I'm going for human-happiness here, and \frac{1}{2} should, you know, work < 1266072749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the internal constructor, that's the Stern-Brocot tree < 1266072754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the thing that, you know, humans actually use < 1266072765 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just wondering why not N -> N -> Q < 1266072812 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266072862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: err of course < 1266072865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm pretty fucking stupid < 1266072872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was thinking of R -> R -> C :-) < 1266072916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1266072924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have just woken up and all < 1266072951 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the natural field extension i presume < 1266072960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the natural extension of your mom, inded < 1266072962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*indeed < 1266072986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the way I was thinking of having C a subset of R was < 1266072997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you implyinh my mom is the splitting field of her own legs < 1266073000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inert i < 1266073001 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*implying < 1266073011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set C = {(a:R) + (b:R) i} < 1266073012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1266073023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 : C < 1266073029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 = 0 + 0 i < 1266073041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then < 1266073043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C a subset of R? < 1266073047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S : ...hmm, wait < 1266073049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: er, superset < 1266073054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking, just like define 0 and S on it < 1266073063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that isn't really enough for the compiler to believe it's a true superset < 1266073085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway take a break and admire my beautiful rich syntax: < 1266073093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2164436/booleans-and-naturals.pdf < 1266073094 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's such a natural embedding of R to C that most people don't even know it's an embedding < 1266073182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In most functional languages, youfd expect S : a ¨ a to mean that S takes a value of any type, < 1266073182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and returns a value of that same type < 1266073197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeees? < 1266073203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a mo < 1266073215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :term rewriting, so terms are arbitrarily extensible < 1266073222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and...things < 1266073236 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blergh, hard to put this into words < 1266073243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional programming plus symbolic computation by the same mechanism, fuck yeah < 1266073245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: do go on :P < 1266073248 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll just say nothing < 1266073255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no please do < 1266073281 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well err < 1266073310 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really LIKE term rewriting < 1266073338 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically S : a -> a just doesn't mean the same thing as in say haskell, but instead that "for each type a there is something, also called S, that has this type signature for the type a" < 1266073339 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I LIKE is giving an equational theory, and then having the compiler design an algorithm which decides equality on that < 1266073347 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it decides unification on it < 1266073355 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that you could use really well < 1266073371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically that's really saying nothing < 1266073407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S : a -> a in things like haskell means that S is one function, that takes values that walk like a's and uses them all the same way < 1266073425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that isn't what it says < 1266073435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, for example < 1266073438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S "a monkey" will fail < 1266073444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's no S : String -> String < 1266073455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S : a -> a is merely a *constraint* on what types you can endow S with < 1266073460 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1266073462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, they must be of the form a -> a < 1266073476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, you can use S in other parts of the program on variables, as long as you obey the rull < 1266073478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rule < 1266073484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus2 x = S S x < 1266073489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus2 : a -> a < 1266073497 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just meant it's not the same thing as it is in haskell, but yeah i guess thinking about it in terms of rewriting makes it natural. < 1266073501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defining S : b -> b gives us plus2 : b -> b too < 1266073509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, it isn't < 1266073513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I explained the difference. :P < 1266073525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's why i said maybe i should say nothing < 1266073526 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266073601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what exactly is this thing < 1266073707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well it's a term rewriting language like Q and Pure, it's purely functional and lazy, so you have lazy symbolic computation _and_ lazy functional computation by the same mechanism, < 1266073712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's typed. < 1266073729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you get what I mean about equational theories < 1266073735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1266073745 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you specify like < 1266073756 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a [] b) [] c = a [] (b [] c) < 1266073767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should work both ways < 1266073776 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact you shouldn't care which way around it's written < 1266073777 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two-way rewriting < 1266073780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two things are identical < 1266073797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266073803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the same thing as < 1266073809 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that (a [] b) [] c --> a [] (b [] c) normalizes terms in this theory is just a coincidence < 1266073811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a [] b) [] c = internal3 a b c < 1266073816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a [] (b [] c) = internal3 a b c < 1266073844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with rewriting you say the two things are equal, but one-way rewriting also says "...but the one on the right is the more natural form" < 1266073870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you could say it's normalization < 1266073930 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i'd want is a two-way rewrite system, and a nice system for adding your own heuristics < 1266073933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you don't execute it and just do properties and proofs and transformations < 1266073938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then one-way rewriting doesn't exist, it's all two-way < 1266073942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one-way is just a choice of how to evaluate it < 1266073980 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with specifying an equational theory is that it's usually undecidible < 1266073996 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a problem < 1266074000 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is it's slow < 1266074015 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay < 1266074034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose it is a problem, but (insert argument) < 1266074084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would be nice to be able to say S : Num a => a -> a < 1266074092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what should Num be in this glorious rewriter? < 1266074262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that what - gives in tex (is it just the minus symbol?) is the best thing for the operator hole < 1266074271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ascii, dunno < 1266074282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm starting to care stunningly little about the ascii representation < 1266074431 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266074432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typeclasse are so suck < 1266074440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266074454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe this is where I should introduce dependent types < 1266074457 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im trying to prototype a CHR typeclass replacement but haskell doesn't have a decent CHR < 1266074483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S : {Num a} -> a -> a < 1266074494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where Num : Set -> amodulething < 1266074497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ehh < 1266074503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm bobbing along fine without them atm < 1266074524 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266074701 0 :tcsavage!~tomcsavag@host86-133-195-53.range86-133.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266074970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is big-{ containing (foo when condition\nbar otherwise) a good notation for guards, do you think? < 1266074977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or should it be part of each definition like pattern matching < 1266075012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big-{ means you have to do space alignment in ascii form which is lame < 1266076147 0 :tcsavage!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266076641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you should make a wiki < 1266076700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for this lang? < 1266076709 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for everything < 1266076726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah the alise wiki, where people can do your projects < 1266076734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why < 1266076743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i answered that already < 1266076799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a good answer tho :P < 1266076852 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well EXCUSE ME for being completely useless < 1266076862 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it should be a Hackiki wiki. < 1266076867 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266076896 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you pronounce "hackiki", the way i do it sounds like some sorta exotic animal < 1266076906 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or like an african melon-hunting tribe < 1266076913 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hack-ee-kee < 1266076925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latexwiki would be fun < 1266076932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just latex blocks < 1266076933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing is latex < 1266076938 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we just spotted some wild hakiki in the forest < 1266076964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LatexWiki - the free latex fetish encyclopedia < 1266076965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The LatexWiki is a free latex fetish encyclopedia that anyone can edit, an online resource for latex fetishists, rubberists and rainwear lovers! ... < 1266076965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266076967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: emphasis on which syllable? < 1266076973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266076976 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: The first kee < 1266076977 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure there are choices really < 1266076981 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266077096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, the ascii representation is so boring < 1266077210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortress and Q and Pure are just so cool < 1266077494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides that the unmatching [/) interval syntax is barfworthy. < 1266077742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about [0, 1[ ;) < 1266077769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aieeeeeeeeeeeeeee < 1266077773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "[5, 7] right exclusive and left inclusive" < 1266077808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1266077808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should check out one of those languages < 1266077817 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if they're hip and cool) < 1266077823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check out all three. (pure is q's successor) < 1266077848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders having T^n = <(T,)*n> < 1266077849 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once i finish this parser < 1266077857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. R^3 = 3d coordinate, < 1266077890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R_{2^{64}}^3 = 3d coordinate using 64-bit reals (prolly floating point) < 1266077916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general you'll want A^B to be a function from B to A, just if B is a natural, you convert it to a set of that cardinality < 1266077935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would a^b be a function from b to a? < 1266077941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have -> for that < 1266077980 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how dare you question how mathematics usually defines it < 1266078020 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what's up with hcf nowadays < 1266078115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally dead man < 1266078118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_[_] : Array_(d,a) -> N_d -> a < 1266078125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ascii form of this language is somewhat ugly < 1266078191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, *N^d < 1266078199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that < 1266078203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266078210 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it take an array of indices? < 1266078215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tuple < 1266078222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because array is N dimensional < 1266078227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a 2d array it'd be < 1266078227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1266078240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of Rs, say: < 1266078243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you mean N_d as in integers mod d < 1266078250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right right _ was a mistake < 1266078251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ i meant < 1266078252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it would've been like a finite array < 1266078254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_[_] : Array_(2,R) -> N^2 -> a < 1266078265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-> R < 1266078270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes XD < 1266078284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway without that syntax for constructing tuple types you couldn't even write that function! < 1266078285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I like it < 1266078310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also I'm considering using N_d = integers-mod-d to do fixed-size ints < 1266078319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, N_(2^n) is an n-bit natural < 1266078320 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you totally should < 1266078321 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact < 1266078325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also N is naturals not ints :P < 1266078338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so N_(2^n) = uintn and Z_(2^n) = intn < 1266078341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should have X_u defined as X/uX in general < 1266078351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266078361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would 100N mean? < 1266078365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm dense atm, forgive me < 1266078375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100 * n for n \in N < 1266078404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I need to use a_x for set arguments < 1266078411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like before, Array_(2,R) < 1266078485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then C = R[x]_(x^2+1) :P < 1266078492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess Array 2 R would work, I can't think how to prettify that with LaTeX < 1266078495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wat. < 1266078522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266078527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latex is not so good at juxtaposition < 1266078532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Array d a" looks like Array da < 1266078589 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: basically you get all polynomials in R[x] that are of a smaller in degree than (x^2 + 1), so your elements are of the form ax + b < 1266078600 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and x^2 + 1 = 0, so in fact x = i < 1266078622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you just took my language and force-fucked it into esotericness < 1266078622 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm learning field theory atm, i hope it doesn't show. < 1266078628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may sue you. < 1266078631 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266078698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether to have a <> unit type < 1266078903 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266078913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't figure out how to do ⟨⟩ in texmacs :( < 1266078914 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tt : 1 < 1266078918 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not... < 1266078923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: in my lang you mean? < 1266078938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 isn't a set, but certainly tt : set-of 1 < 1266078939 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since ff, tt : 2 work < 1266078948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1266079099 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1266079102 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wuuuuuuuuuut < 1266079338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, I don't think 1-tuples make any sense < 1266079348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so should a^1 = a?? < 1266079358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, then having a^0 be <> seems inconsistent, if ^1 is the "base" < 1266079440 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in math we usually identify (a,(b,c)) and ((a,b),c) < 1266079460 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like completly implicitly, there's probably generations of people that haven't even thought about it < 1266079469 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with (a) and a < 1266079490 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don'tsee a problem wth a^0 as unit < 1266079494 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you might define < 1266079497 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^0 = () < 1266079506 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^(1+n) = a * a^n < 1266079507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266079510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^0 = a < 1266079512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266079513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^0 = <> < 1266079515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^1 = a < 1266079517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^2 = < 1266079519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^3 = < 1266079521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the "gap"? < 1266079523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird < 1266079553 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266079560 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^1 = <> * a = < 1266079632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But does make sense? < 1266079634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, semantically, a. < 1266079647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it's a rather pointless type to have. < 1266079679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, <> looks ugly, syntactically. :P I think I want a separate unit type... < 1266079998 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identification of things is a complex subject, says SICP < 1266080587 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you read your SICP today? < 1266080630 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266080631 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266080637 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry < 1266081000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so do you think <,c> should = ? < 1266081013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a^n = a * a^(n-1) < 1266081013 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266081079 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise not sure, it's a lot different in programming < 1266081086 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than on paper < 1266081099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tupelem : a^n -> N_n -> a < 1266081114 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, taking any pictures this weekend? < 1266081125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah! < 1266081133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will do that tomorrow; it completely crossed my mind on Friday. < 1266081137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, completely didn't. < 1266081138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cross. < 1266081147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me. :P < 1266081164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but a legal investigation seems more likely than moving at the moment0 < 1266081270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*) < 1266081294 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why was this so useless?: http://i.imgur.com/ClzRm.png < 1266081321 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although actually, some stuff does seem faster now < 1266081321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You did stuff while fragmenting. < 1266081322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't. < 1266081324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*defragmenting < 1266081326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: placebo < 1266081341 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1266081368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If stuff is accessing stuff, it can't move that stuff. < 1266081379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So close everything, run the defragmentation, and go for a walk. < 1266081382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just keep it fragmented. < 1266081389 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to let it run overnight < 1266081397 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I woke up is when I started doing stuff < 1266081398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I dunno. < 1266081405 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[although I did leave my browser open on one page] < 1266081413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That wouldn't have such a dramatic effect. < 1266081440 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "doing stuff" when I woke up [and it was still going] came down to visiting a few pages < 1266081581 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one naughty pic < 1266081627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: if you touch the HD *too* much, defragmenter restarts < 1266081629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's done it's done < 1266081631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... dunno < 1266081663 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I started touching stuff, it said something like, 30%, Compressing files < 1266081670 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know if that counts as a restart < 1266081787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think so < 1266082060 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try again tonight, I guess < 1266082116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266082124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have {1,2,...} and {0,1,2...} what should you name them? < 1266082131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have just one obviously N is the right name < 1266082188 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Changing server < 1266082216 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N* is used for "N without 0" in at least two contexts < 1266082221 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's not one of them tho) < 1266082233 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266082244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: :D < 1266082258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errrrrrr < 1266082266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/N/X/ :) < 1266082279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's N_+ < 1266082284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could look it up < 1266082286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but poop! < 1266082309 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z_+ and Z_- are used for... i don't know if the zeroes are there actually < 1266082325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N_+ i haven't seen < 1266082405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe Z_+ then < 1266082413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember < 1266082437 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make sense, but shuold check if 0 is usually there < 1266082464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: apparently N* is in fact used to mean N without 0 < 1266082468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the naturalz < 1266082472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, cool < 1266082509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't one of the two i knew, didn't actually know it isn't used for it < 1266082575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just one of the meanings i know "makes sense" for N, and N* = {1} < 1266082586 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait... < 1266082593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what kind of * is it, I wonder < 1266082596 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when is N a ring :P < 1266082613 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my head is out shopping today < 1266082798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(c=>x; d=>y; e=>z; otherwise) is a nice conditional syntax < 1266082825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep almost speaking finnish here < 1266082835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head hurts again < 1266082839 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm dying or something < 1266082862 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it hurts almost every week < 1266082870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see a dawktore < 1266082876 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah right < 1266082883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought not < 1266082887 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266082889 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i might < 1266082897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1266082899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1266083110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_\circ is a rather nice hole char for multifix < 1266083167 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's \circ? < 1266083238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circle thingy. < 1266083249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, like a big big . filling a whole letterspace, but hollow. < 1266083251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a circle. < 1266083286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1266083291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense < 1266083335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're subscripted so as not to clash with the operator text < 1266083343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can think of specifying an argument as "filling the circle in" < 1266083386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2164436/if-then-else.pdf < 1266083386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dig it. < 1266083447 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PDF WARNING!!!!! < 1266083466 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always think of \top and \bot as sets though.. < 1266083472 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tt and ff as values < 1266083478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pdf warning my arse < 1266083479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks weird but idk < 1266083487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with pdfs < 1266083490 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know :( < 1266083497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you using adobe reader or sth? :p < 1266083507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might be right about \top and \bot < 1266083509 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just complaining about how stupid reddit is < 1266083511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they aren't sitting well with me, either < 1266083513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1266083528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be more coolie about tt and ff if they, say, had a fancy ligature < 1266083536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's gotta be in unicode, right? < 1266083536 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehehe < 1266083546 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't overuse unicode < 1266083552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: of course if i'm using names i could just call them, you know, true and false < 1266083561 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they letters on the keyboard are the easiest ones to type < 1266083567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the main syntax for this language is two-dimensional using things like blackboard bold < 1266083581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of _course_ it needs a specialised editor (or just use the ascii->that converter) < 1266083606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you shouldn't have to be writing a research paper to get beautiful code ;) < 1266083608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) < 1266083642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how to represent _\circ in the ascii form < 1266083648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if()then()else() < 1266083668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: any reason to use tt/ff over true/false? < 1266083706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just 0/1 :P < 1266083760 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shorter < 1266083762 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I:) < 1266083768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1266083770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266083770 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true and false are probaly best < 1266083792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah except "if true then" "if false then", you know, sorta good to keep the ambiguity between names and inert values down :P < 1266083814 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you want something as horrible as if-then-else- ? < 1266083829 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bool : a -> a -> B -> a < 1266083833 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you horriblophiliac < 1266083834 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ is better < 1266083840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not for imperative code < 1266083850 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imperative doesn't exist < 1266083852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not for if x then let ... in ... else ... < 1266083883 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No identifier may be identical to another identifier used in the program to denote something else, or include such an identifier as a substring. < 1266083915 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Note particularly that, in the case of one identifier being a substring of another, only the longer identifier shall be considered erroneous. < 1266083945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The constants for true and false are t and f respectively." < 1266083946 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266083953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay double haha < 1266083961 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait just one < 1266083968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: C++0x, I presume! < 1266083976 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :P < 1266083984 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just made that up and thought it would be amusing to share < 1266084002 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should become a language < 1266084006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i's hucking brillian < 1266084009 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Filled with absurdities like that < 1266084024 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it should be called javascript < 1266084273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent types + tuples with names for their args = module system methinks < 1266084359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functor : * -> * -> * < 1266084369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functor f a = b) -> f a -> f b> < 1266084370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1266084376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you'd do < 1266084413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functor_List : Functor List < 1266084439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functor_List a = < 1266086034 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-172-6-94.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266086955 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266086967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so. i just debugged my code for like 20 minutes because i'd written my fibonacci program with just one base case. < 1266086984 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, clue parser parsed its first baby < 1266086987 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1266087278 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266087513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: is that the guessing clue thing < 1266087513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg < 1266087514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg < 1266087517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have my babies, the clue babies < 1266087563 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's the guessing thing < 1266087569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's cooooool < 1266087869 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266087954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is writing a tree-rewriting tarpit to get the feel of it first < 1266087955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fn A E X = (A = X) : E < 1266087957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish that worked < 1266087975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't, because the rule A = X is just ASIDUASD = X, i.e. you can rewrite anything at all to X < 1266087985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a quote/unquote thingy to do that :P < 1266087991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rule : E is e-with-rule) < 1266088012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so "+ X Y = ..." called is like (X = val) : (Y = val) : ...) < 1266088474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really want reversible parsers < 1266088489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to just be able to write a syntax and have it think of data structures automatically and write a->String and String->a < 1266088640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what? < 1266088644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna fuckin' write it < 1266088646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh wait < 1266088647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing first < 1266088657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ask the little copy of oerjan in your mind if it's possible < 1266089147 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only use my copy of oerjan for good < 1266089167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hey this is good < 1266089172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to write pretty-printers ever again! < 1266089191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2parse or not 2parse, that is the question! < 1266089271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha man, conor mcbride is like < 1266089273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a copy of me < 1266089277 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think i should make a syntax for the functional language to which clues are compiled < 1266089278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1266089281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's more intelligenterer but he has like < 1266089285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly the same programming language interests as me < 1266089286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit water boils < 1266089293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT DOES < 1266089299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also yes < 1266089304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it the inverse lambda calculus < 1266089334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda calculus puts values in names, then uses those names in a new value < 1266089351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inverse lambda calculus looks up names for values, then extracts those names from a value < 1266089354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make it now < 1266089445 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a graph lambda calculus < 1266089463 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it would definitely be cool to see what kind of algorithms this thing generates < 1266089490 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just thinking it'd be weird, in some sense, to have a functional language you can see, but can't actually write < 1266089493 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe it's not < 1266089573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i presume you're not talking about the inverse lambda calculus :) < 1266089609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in lc (\x.y)z puts z in x, then uses x in y; so in inverse lc we have to get x from z, then extract the x from y < 1266089622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what the result of the extraction is, though < 1266089675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, really, LC is (name=arg) in body < 1266089696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically in LC what we work with are values, and names are just helpers < 1266089699 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking something like a haskell syntax < 1266089705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in inverse LC we only have values so we can find names < 1266089720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is, how do we get a name from a value? < 1266089921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so my parser combinator library will be based on applicative functors < 1266089952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with most parser libraries all you need is syntaxbits -> ast < 1266089960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like varname,funcbody -> ast < 1266089970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in this we need ast -> varname,funcbody as well < 1266089982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, maybe we can derive that. < 1266090019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ignore a parsed bit, you have to specify a default value for it so it can use it when deparsing < 1266090125 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay these now parse and compile: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p351446645.txt < 1266090141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax complaints? < 1266090142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that this is sexy. < 1266090146 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow lol < 1266090156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well one i'd add more unicode, i take it _that_ won't be accepted < 1266090159 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there two :.'s ? < 1266090169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in foo ~ ; baz; quux i'd use commas, not semicolons < 1266090171 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: two different examples < 1266090177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actually very useful for this simple things < 1266090192 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266090198 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fib there is :. twice < 1266090198 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why < 1266090207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: clue :: [(input,output)] -> (input -> output) < 1266090210 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just gave it two examples. < 1266090212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, + some hints < 1266090216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib ~ {:. 8 -> 21 < 1266090216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : 6 -> 8 < 1266090217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : 7 -> 13 < 1266090217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :. 7 -> 13 < 1266090217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : 5 -> 5 < 1266090219 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : 6 -> 8} < 1266090222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is :. there twice?? < 1266090223 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so < 1266090239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's because i gave it two examples :P < 1266090239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266090240 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like 6 examples in two groups, what are the groups? < 1266090245 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266090256 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-16-165.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266090258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two examples, it's just you don't separate them. < 1266090260 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UR LANGAUGE IS TOO HARD < 1266090278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you complain about that, i'm not sure why i decided to do it like that, maybe just to be weird < 1266090292 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that not 6 examples? < 1266090295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically that's (:. stuff : stuff : stuff), (:. stuff : stuff : stuff) < 1266090299 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well because < 1266090301 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought an example was an input output pair < 1266090301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm confused < 1266090307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ":"'s are subexamples < 1266090311 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the :.'s before them < 1266090312 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1266090313 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a sub example? < 1266090317 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's :. < 1266090318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it's two calls < 1266090321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reducing fib downwards < 1266090328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the recursive calls should return < 1266090335 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what their inputs should be < 1266090336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so :D < 1266090341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yarr < 1266090347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80-1 = 7 < 1266090350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-2 = 6 < 1266090353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have 8 6 7 on the LHS < 1266090357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*8-1 < 1266090360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show how the recursive call goes < 1266090369 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266090369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7->13, biggy so you know, show how dat be done < 1266090382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::. IOP : IOP1 : ... : IOPn means find code for IOP, use all of IOPi's when deriving output value < 1266090390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, clue wouldn't know when to recurse downwards < 1266090394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd just have a shitload of numbers < 1266090402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and oklopol isn't quite clever enough to reverse that :) < 1266090418 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266090428 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah i think you're getting it right < 1266090438 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially the not clever enough part < 1266090440 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol wuuuuuuuuuut < 1266090455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: okay. let's look at this < 1266090460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<MissPiggy> fib ~ {:. 8 -> 21 < 1266090461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<MissPiggy> : 6 -> 8 < 1266090461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<MissPiggy> : 7 -> 13 < 1266090464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib(8) = 21 < 1266090465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p351446645.txt < 1266090468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib(8) = fib(6) + fib(7) < 1266090472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, we show that 21 is the result < 1266090473 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excuse me?? < 1266090478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then show it descending into fib(6) and fib(7) < 1266090488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8+13 = 21, so 8 -> 21 shows how you add the two recursions < 1266090489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see!!!!!!! < 1266090492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we start a new example, for 7 -> 13 < 1266090494 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understnad CLUE!!!!!!!! < 1266090500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ANCHOVIES!!!! < 1266090505 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this makes sense < 1266090508 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you have < 1266090534 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :. a -> b : a'_i -> b'_i < 1266090559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that f(a) = b = G(f(a_0),f(a_1),...) < 1266090562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ":. 8 -> 21 : 6 -> 8 : 7 -> 13" says find a way to get 21 from the input 8, and the outputs 8 and 13. also find a way to find the subinputs 6 and 7 from the main input 8 < 1266090567 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where G is the recursive case it's solving for < 1266090577 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are the things you always do with recursion < 1266090608 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do something to get input for the recursive cases (6 and 7), then use their output (and your original input maybe) to find the final output < 1266090627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, my suggestions: < 1266090633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the hint line, make the operator something other than ~ < 1266090646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make the separator , not ; < 1266090668 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was just < 1266090673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, don't have multiple blocks in ~ like that, either separate every call (excluding subcalls ofc) into its own block < 1266090675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have one big block < 1266090677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are my suggestions < 1266090687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[(input,ouput)] -> (input -> output) < 1266090689 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's actually < 1266090709 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[((input,output), [(input, output)])] -> (input -> output) < 1266090731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so about putting this thing on esolang, we need (the first?) disambiguation page right? i have no idea how to use the wiki really. also is it okay to put closed source up there, i really don't want to publish this code yet. < 1266090737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you forgot -> [hint] < 1266090740 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each ((mi,mo),(si,so)) :: ((input,output), [(input, output)]) < 1266090743 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1266090758 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and each ((mi,mo),(si_j,so_j)) :: ((input,output), [(input, output)]) < 1266090760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: if there's no code you can post a binary, but I'll lynch you < 1266090765 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is an obvious massive abstraction i can do, but it requires a tiny bit of thinking, which i can't do right no < 1266090765 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w < 1266090769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where j rangers over n different subproblems < 1266090770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO publishing just a spec beats publishing a binary with no source < 1266090788 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the subproblems are used to explain the recursion structure < 1266090792 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah and there's hints too < 1266090804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like publishing a press release saying "we're finalising a paper that shows that monkeys are real" vs "Monkeys are real. Here is how to work it out given the data: ... We will not show our data." < 1266090813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former is fine, the second isn't < 1266090844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically just the conversions multiple examples <-> one example with at each actual value a vector of values in the corresponding places in the different examples < 1266090865 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, it's really tiny < 1266090867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ocluepol, I guess that is how this works without being type directed < 1266090881 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems :P less magic now < 1266090886 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still amazing < 1266090924 0 :kivod!~kivod@ABordeaux-551-1-72-101.w92-149.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266090949 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you don't have subproblems is it just impossible? < 1266090951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so basically you just have a bunch of, basically tables for operations like add, subtract, multiply < 1266090956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you just look things up in there < 1266090963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: maybe not with hints < 1266090972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get what his hints do though :) < 1266091013 0 :kivod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a chan about esotericism or programming? < 1266091017 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266091031 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esotericism programming and esoteric programming < 1266091038 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esoteric programming. < 1266091040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esotericism programming! iching(1) < 1266091044 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes off to program some ghosts. < 1266091046 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and itching < 1266091051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and gay sex < 1266091055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly gay sex actually < 1266091061 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enigmatic gay itching? < 1266091067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very. < 1266091077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kivod: now the question we have, which one did you *want* < 1266091080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*have is < 1266091101 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklotype I will help code a type directed version if you want < 1266091120 0 :kivod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266091125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you werobefubef < 1266091129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kivod: you wanted lol? < 1266091133 0 :kivod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was searchning for a chan about esotericism < 1266091141 0 :kivod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I like programming too so ... < 1266091142 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kivod, I'm into esotericism < 1266091153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore MissPiggy, the rest of us aren't crazy! < 1266091155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secret of the cube and stuff < 1266091160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...apart from oklopol < 1266091168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although oklopol probably has some deep oklo musing about the secret of the cube. < 1266091195 0 :kivod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, now my question is, what's exactly esoteric programming? < 1266091224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: also, don't have multiple blocks in ~ like that, either separate every call (excluding subcalls ofc) into its own block" <<< now i have block per one type of computation < 1266091235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming using an esoteric programming language. An esoteric programming language is a language designed to be exceptionally unusual, odd, or hard to use. < 1266091244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kivod: programming the computational equivalent of crack by monkeys on crack < 1266091250 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best-known examples are Brainfuck and INTERCAL. < 1266091257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in languages that crack your mind into a thousand million pieces and they all turn into monkeys. < 1266091262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you are BORING < 1266091276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I try. < 1266091277 0 :kivod!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds cool ^^ < 1266091283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT ISN'T. It's horrific. < 1266091296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turn back now, while you still have a chance!!!!! < 1266091300 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wrote a thingy for use by programs written in esoteric languages < 1266091313 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That thing, however, was idiotically designed [by me] and for all intents and purposes, dead < 1266091314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignore Sgeo, he's never quite gotten over the PSOX ordela. < 1266091316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ordeal. < 1266091326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he starts mumbling, just smile and say yes a lot. < 1266091328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i think this is a cooler thing than using types, as an esolang, that is < 1266091333 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266091349 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol can you make any functions with it which aren't HM typeable? < 1266091349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: can you define your own tables for it to look up in? or does defining functions do that < 1266091405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HM typeable? < 1266091413 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: humm? < 1266091418 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look what up < 1266091422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hindley-milner typeadoo < 1266091425 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1266091435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: like it infers the operations by looking up your two operandyhoos values that it needs to infer an op from < 1266091443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from like various tables of the core operations like +, - etc < 1266091443 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give an example that isn't HM typeable < 1266091445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1266091446 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y? < 1266091451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y isn't hm typey yeah < 1266091458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously you can write y < 1266091459 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's HM typable? < 1266091459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so is defining a function adding your own table < 1266091461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait can you now < 1266091465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hindley-milner typeadoo < 1266091472 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I assume that y == y combinator? < 1266091483 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what table? < 1266091488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean < 1266091496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you use your functions as helpers in other functions < 1266091510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like can you make a function that does something, using an append function you wrote < 1266091529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah, without specifying it < 1266091541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. does making new functions give it more rules with which to infer operations < 1266091569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, where did you get that it "infers" something? :P < 1266091577 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope i didn't say yes to anything like that < 1266091582 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just brute force search man < 1266091592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266091594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it like < 1266091598 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is very beta. < 1266091599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay our two subcalls are 4 and 3 < 1266091606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our main thing is 12 < 1266091612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4+3 = 7 nope < 1266091614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4-3 = 1 nope < 1266091618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4*3 = 12 BINGOOOOOOOO < 1266091626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have like, addition, subtraction and multiplication table there < 1266091629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we look up in each one < 1266091631 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's like that, but you'd probably just give it * and not + or -. < 1266091635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursively for the subcalls < 1266091638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well how does it know < 1266091640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't tell it < 1266091641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266091649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does making your own function f(x,y)=z add f as a table to that inferring process < 1266091651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not SHIT SUX < 1266091667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you give it the functions to use EXPLICITLY. < 1266091678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266091682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it isn't clever at all < 1266091684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266091685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib ~ ; dec; add < 1266091690 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :append ~ ; car; cdr; cons < 1266091693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about not having them < 1266091700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having it search the entire universe of currently-defined functions < 1266091711 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol I don't understand why you wouldn't want it type directed :( < 1266091721 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps if i write a sophisticated enough compiler < 1266091733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: oh i do, eventually < 1266091752 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266091754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse :: String -> Maybe Integer < 1266091755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse "0" = Just 0 < 1266091755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse ('S':xs) = return (1 +) <*> parse xs < 1266091755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse _ = Nothing < 1266091755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deparse :: Integer -> Maybe String < 1266091755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deparse 0 = Just "0" < 1266091757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deparse (n+1) = return ('S':) <*> deparse n < 1266091759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deparse _ = Nothing < 1266091761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conclusion < 1266091766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for trivial parsers, just swap LHS and RHS for parse/deparse < 1266091793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to make it less trivial < 1266091799 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but really it's type directed already in the sense that if an operation fails, then its result is ignored. < 1266091802 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, so right now, if you have hints {f,g,h} and you want to make a function from recursive subcalls {p,q} which equals the target value x < 1266091822 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = f(p,h(q,p,p),g(p)) might be a right answer, for example < 1266091833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this roughly the kind of problem it tries to solve? < 1266091836 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266091846 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you which arity each function is? < 1266091851 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like h takes 3 parameters < 1266091870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primitives have arities, and your functions have the arities their clues do. < 1266091886 0 :kivod!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266091898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some primitives have types, and your functions will fail if used with an incorrect type, because the primitives they consist of will fail. < 1266091920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1266091923 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: so it isn't clever at all" <<< the compiler is not supposed to be clever, the language is. < 1266091926 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well arity is the first sign of type :D < 1266091933 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of being untyped it's typed like < 1266091935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: specifying ops != clever < 1266091937 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* -> * -> * < 1266091950 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than < 1266091954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Int -> String -> Int < 1266091958 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even < 1266091964 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Int -> (String -> String) -> Int < 1266091971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it do higher order programming? :P < 1266092047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not atm, but it should < 1266092055 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol that sounds be really really hard though < 1266092063 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :later < 1266092077 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not relly. < 1266092078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*really < 1266092106 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah i don't care about your stupid opinion < 1266092113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your mom is fat < 1266092115 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266092117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow < 1266092122 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that < 1266092126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waaaah < 1266092131 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you guys stop fighting!!!!!!!!! < 1266092135 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway err < 1266092139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was originally even thinking < 1266092144 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might make like append < 1266092147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the higher order programming is hard < 1266092149 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BY THE WAY < 1266092153 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then give some other function, as a helper, (append [1,2,3]) < 1266092161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curried that is < 1266092178 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure "append [1,2,3]" denotes a function just as "append" does < 1266092179 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard in what sense? < 1266092179 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the problem is < 1266092182 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see any difference < 1266092188 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might be able to just write some sorta combinators, and program in helper lists < 1266092200 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ the problem i was thinking it might have < 1266092206 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well for type directed higher order programming, you can do it algorithmically < 1266092210 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without any examples or anything < 1266092220 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when you add recursive data types, it becomes very difficult < 1266092280 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do what algorithmically < 1266092284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole thing? < 1266092302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you do example-oriented programming without examples < 1266092333 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean just deducing functions from some general rules for how they should work < 1266092344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's bullshit < 1266092395 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol do you make your language output lisp and haskell? < 1266092423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can inhabit (or show impossible) stuff like a -> (a -> b) -> b < 1266092426 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without any examples < 1266092426 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, not actually either of them < 1266092428 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's not internally either < 1266092442 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even as a functional language it's quite different < 1266092455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1266092456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inhabit? what the fuck does that help < 1266092470 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what your language does I think < 1266092474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna write a tetris with this, not a fucking logic wanking tool < 1266092482 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you create functions from examples no? < 1266092488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, sure < 1266092499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL LOL LOL < 1266092540 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i wanna write a tetris with this, not a fucking logic wanking tool" -- oklopol on programming < 1266092551 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just saying the language is a bit different, so i was thinking haskell syntax, plus some additional syntax < 1266092556 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmm < 1266092557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Logic wanking < 1266092560 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on programming with clue, yes < 1266092564 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266092578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just mean you people seem to completely misunderstand the idea of the language < 1266092586 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do < 1266092601 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to undersatnd it though] < 1266092608 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not meant to be something pure and sexy, it's meant to be a cool hack around the fact example-based stuff is impossible to make work. < 1266092695 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mean is < 1266092708 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) higher order programming is going to be extremely difficult to solve < 1266092722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Text.TwoParse> toVars $ toAST $ varsFor P_ X < 1266092722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right X < 1266092722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it is! < 1266092723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a start < 1266092730 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well I hope you are right :P < 1266092732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: oklopol's probably right, he can hack up anything < 1266092734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1266092740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say you wanna write like map < 1266092774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just give it an example of some list and something like an increment function, and show that it applies the function to first one, and recurses on the tail of the list, then conses < 1266092780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me implement map f [] = [] ; map f [3,5,6,2] = [f 3,f 5,f 6,f 2] ? < 1266092782 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1266092792 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you change the function, it'll just apply it, like it did with increment. < 1266092803 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266092821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so map inc [] = [] ; map inc [3,5,6,2] = [4,6,7,3] < 1266092833 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there are problems, i can't see them. < 1266092841 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION neither < 1266092864 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is going to be so sick < 1266092866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that thing i just explained would work right away, prolly, if i added like an append function, and made it possible to have functions as data < 1266092866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266092866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*added like an apply function < 1266092964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can try to implement map, although it won't work currently (no fundamental reason it shouldn't, just some name lookup things i'd need to add) < 1266092969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Text.TwoParse> toVars $ toAST $ varsFor S_ ('a','b') < 1266092969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right (Right ('a','b')) < 1266092970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1266093052 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay done < 1266093117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p525542334.txt < 1266093119 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's it < 1266093133 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... < 1266093141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay there's a slight problem because i chose such a simple function < 1266093145 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly wouldn't work < 1266093152 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you see why btw? < 1266093276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p536541641.txt < 1266093277 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better < 1266093382 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the reason i chose "," over ";" was just so you could use "," in identifier names < 1266093406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if you want a function called "do this, then do that" < 1266093517 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i do think it would be nicer to use ",", i just want to have absolute freedom in varnames. < 1266093533 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what do you suggest for "~", and what's wrong with it now? < 1266093560 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the block thing, i've learned to love it already < 1266093571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well why can't you use ; in varnames < 1266093580 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you could < 1266093581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the block thing i suggested or how you already had it? < 1266093589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ~ is fine, just not for the list of funcs < 1266093592 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one i have now, < 1266093594 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-, < 1266093595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd use / < 1266093598 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266093598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like w/, with < 1266093602 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266093610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map / ; cons; car; cdr < 1266093613 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally i think i had different chars for both < 1266093641 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's sort of this esotheme going on that things that mean completely different things look similar < 1266093687 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other main thing is {:: a -> b }, although i guess it just looks like a completely separate thing now that i've implemented this < 1266093694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: is the tests < 1266093706 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually probably not that useful, but no matter < 1266093769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll consider / < 1266093790 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about "USING THE FOLLOWING HELPER FUNCTINOS:" < 1266093795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*USES < 1266093949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's how I'd write fib in http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p351446645.txt < 1266094043 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266094053 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266094061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do the <> mean in hints < 1266094068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base case? < 1266094069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266094081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :; deconstruct for recursion; combine < 1266094085 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nooo < 1266094085 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was reading the "LoUIE" page. < 1266094090 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<> is the condition function < 1266094105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also explicitly tell it what to use to differentiate between cases < 1266094114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said LoUIE LoUIE < 1266094129 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not completely explicitly < 1266094143 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like fib just needs id < 1266094164 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base case 1 is always 0, base case 2 is always 1, so all others will go to the general case < 1266094196 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking at the "Paneer" part. Forth (and possibly other existing programming langauges) can do something like that (maybe bash shell-script can, but I'm not sure), but it doesn't what you want, necessary. Still, that's how the OASYS->TAVSYS converter works. The file "oasys.4th" defines a word "oas" which causes OASYS binary files to be treated as a source code for a TAVSYS file. < 1266094207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in append, instead of empty you could also use length < 1266094245 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also looked at "Boo-yah!" and I want to think of what kind of states it can use. < 1266094287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p123635515.txt < 1266094290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my masterful syntax < 1266094307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..5/..6 in the second fib recursion thing should be .. 5/.. 6 < 1266094348 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is that file? < 1266094396 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't have a clue < 1266094422 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: how does it know the 7 and 8 examples are the same? < 1266094470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the grouping is to show that < 1266094496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing else < 1266094584 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also had another idea of esolang: A program language that the operators for dealing with numbers includes things such as "count how many letters to write the word of this number in English", "count how many letters to write the word of this number in Latin", "remove all digits from the first number that match digits in the second number", and so on, like that. < 1266094645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh < 1266094649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: didn't realise < 1266094694 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably i didn't mention it < 1266095009 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266095073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fooS :: PP Foo < 1266095074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fooS = char 'x' *> give X_ () < 1266095074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : <|> char 'p' *> give P_ fooS < 1266095074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : <|> give S_ (anyChar, anyChar) < 1266095122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I need PP :: * -> * ;; instance Functor PP ;; instance Applicative PP ;; instance Alternative PP ;; char :: Char -> PP Char ;; give :: MetaFor a b -> b -> PP a < 1266095145 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: did you accept the grouping then? i could just have whitespace, but i sorta like the idea of brackets when there's pretty much no structure and it's completely needless :P < 1266095152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parse :: PP a -> String -> Maybe a ;; deparse :: PP a -> a -> Maybe String < 1266095165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: tbh the syntax is minimal enough that it barely matters < 1266095169 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266095170 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1266095171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90% of the program will be a bunch of examples < 1266095176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only syntax there is comma and -> :P < 1266095198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, and .'s and :'s < 1266095209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you just need one of them < 1266095216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah they're pretty rare < 1266095222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it takes the sum of dots mod 4 < 1266095223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to examples < 1266095238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is test, 1 is base, 2 is subcase, 3 is recursive case < 1266095247 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackiki.org/wiki/features I added some documentation of Hackiki's feature to hackiki.org (zomg) < 1266095248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should just make a language where every function has to be invertible < 1266095261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notably, it would protect programmers from using strong encryption < 1266095276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can write :., .: or ... < 1266095288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wow, that is glacial. < 1266095291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: XD < 1266095294 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait actually ofc you can't write everything with :'s, turns out : isn't a prime < 1266095298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*turns out 4 isn't < 1266095304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hey you guys < 1266095307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey augie < 1266095314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur. < 1266095316 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not augie < 1266095317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1266095318 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: wow that's like recursion < 1266095340 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Uhhh? < 1266095348 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: nm. < 1266095352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I forgot, I also need anyChare :: PP Char < 1266095362 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"documentation of Hackiki's feature to hackiki.org" <<< X in X. < 1266095363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: he was mocking you :) < 1266095379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that really made no sense < 1266095386 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yeah mocking < 1266095391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, more or less < 1266095394 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cleverly you don't even get it < 1266095395 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a OpenID program but how can I get it to work? < 1266095410 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what's wrong with augie < 1266095427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was the name of a friends brother when i was younger < 1266095430 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is what I have so far http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/openid/openid.php < 1266095437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in my mind it's not the diminutive of augur < 1266095437 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you can see, it doesn't work. < 1266095441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just a different name < 1266095443 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i call alise allie and Sgeo sgay < 1266095463 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and im not saying its not a reasonable diminutive for augur < 1266095475 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to my ear it doesnt _sound_ like a diminutive, it just sounds like a different name < 1266095482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, i see < 1266095491 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can think of another cutive, i can used that. < 1266095501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*use < 1266095503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur is cute enough! < 1266095512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aurgy < 1266095514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wish < 1266095517 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You give that URL to something with OpenID login ... to log in. < 1266095521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"auglet" < 1266095524 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dblp.uni-trier.de/db/indices/a-tree/v/Vijay=Shanker:K=.html < 1266095529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at all those wonderful papers T_T < 1266095553 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think someone should build a programming language that uses a LIG/TAG or something < 1266095605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: did you... configure it? < 1266095624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1266095770 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266095799 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B133741.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266096099 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did give that URL to sometihng to log in, and it says it is wrong! < 1266096107 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wasab.dk/morten/2007/11/openid/ < 1266096129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix_n f = f (fix_n f)^n where n>0 < 1266096136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you didn't configure it < 1266096137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edit the file < 1266096365 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1266096512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a text editor. < 1266096524 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back yo < 1266096561 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that, of course. That isn't what I meant < 1266096750 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i had an interesting idea for a modification of prolog < 1266096751 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::x < 1266096778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean some sort of unification over quantifiers with a dash of absolute convergence? < 1266096801 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? :| < 1266096810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which i mean do explain, we can hope i understand a word of it < 1266096818 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1266096832 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at the codes but it looks like correctly. < 1266096851 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep saying things that mean nothing today, especially irl, here i can just not press enter < 1266096858 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldnt modify standard prolog (unless prolog already does this) but < 1266096871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo(X), bar(X) ---> foo(bar(X)) < 1266097170 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see what's wrong now. It is trying to open /dev/urandom and that's why it doesn't work. < 1266097240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# Each of the n characters in a name must come from a different character partition, where a character partition is identified as any character within the range [0..99], [100..299], ..., [3600..3699]. For example, while ŸēĴǥȬʂ˩̪ΘкүӾԦב؏ڀۙݥގࠅࡁࣷईং৔ਾ૖ૻஃ௵శದദං෌แ clearly is an elongated streams, ٬੓ಛ଩ƀĚЇ̢ߊvǢϦɸ܀৺૊౭஌<؅ࠀ˽ࣄܢɒ௵ँෞݜғๅࡼՠҰേজඛ is not a value chain, basi < 1266097240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cally because there are two unicode characters within the range [1800..1899] in here. Neither is ಉ̪ݛՁूϚ֡Ŝ٘ல෌࠴ৄॼˋ߷нɋwCьÒޜӠ౬؀૔ങࣷۮǐਖ਼ఄବʔ൬, mainly because it is 36 characters long and there is no such thing as a 36 characters long identifier in i®™. < 1266097250 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it is still wrong. < 1266097251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--Gerson Kerz, i spec < 1266097271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Lets talk about sourcecode first. The character set for a legal i input file must be in Punicode encoding, as specified in RFC 3492 and the file must have a utf-16be BOM. This helps keeping the code secure, because nobody can use something as trivial as Notepad to edit i sourcecode.]] < 1266098128 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266098153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class (PFunctor p r t, QFunctor p s t) => Bifunctor p r s t | p r -> s t, p s -> r t, p t -> r s where < 1266098153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bimap :: r a b -> s c d -> t (p a c) (p b d) < 1266098169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you start implementing an instance of this, is that the signal that "make this so my life is easier" has failed utterly and horribly? < 1266098609 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's just say that looks like a lot of letters < 1266098641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out I also have to implement < 1266098642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class (Category r, Category t) => PFunctor p r t | p r -> t, p t -> r where < 1266098642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : first :: r a b -> t (p a c) (p b c) < 1266098643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1266098646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class (Category s, Category t) => QFunctor q s t | q s -> t, q t -> s where < 1266098646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : second :: s a b -> t (q c a) (q c b) < 1266098655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i don't see how that makes sense < 1266098658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is just for a parsing library.) < 1266098667 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what? < 1266098676 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: foo(X), bar(X) ---> foo(bar(X))" < 1266098684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: why doesnt that make sense < 1266098726 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266098781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't see what the point is < 1266098925 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie / Deewiant / any finn online? < 1266098950 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: theres no point, except to make it weirder < 1266098990 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i can imagine it would do that < 1266099005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do you own at finnish < 1266099012 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not yet < 1266099025 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to know some train schedules but my internet is not alive < 1266099044 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm completely offline atm < 1266099457 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266099889 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: How is your Internet not alive if you can do the IRC < 1266099912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TELEPATHY < 1266099926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's emitting gamma rays that flip bits in Freenode's RAM that make it think he's connected and sending messages. < 1266099942 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose DNS could be dead but there are easier ways to work around that than asking somebody else over IRC < 1266100465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: write my haskell function for me, thx < 1266100478 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Whatever for? < 1266100506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: a bi-directional ([token] -> a and a -> [token] from the same parser), applicative parser < 1266100515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fairly sure a certain function is unimplementable < 1266100548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/823742.txt?key=ugezvaboaxv3tg15cjeja < 1266100551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good luck, sucker! < 1266100564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Have you tried Parsec and a show/read instance? < 1266100582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, because Parsec can take an AST and give you back corresponding source. < 1266100588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without writing a separate deparser. < 1266100605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it can do that, it's exactly what I want and I'm duplicating effort by writing something that can do that. < 1266100611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266100612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a pretty printer that hard? < 1266100612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266100641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is a pretty-printer that handles things like only putting parentheses in when needed harder than simply writing a parser and having it automatically deparse too? < 1266100646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; much harder. < 1266100651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a library only has to be written once. < 1266100683 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehh, eff that. < 1266100706 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a dozen more kanji or so I'd like to learn today. < 1266100714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah! < 1266100848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it's just really slow, if you need to know. < 1266100853 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, autodidactism. < 1266100857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is such a wonderful thing. < 1266100886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no other didactism, teaching is just an attempt to direct focus. < 1266100901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy person says what < 1266100910 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love clue < 1266100952 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266100995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i just realized mutual recursion can't really be added just like that, the whole language needs to be changed quite a lot < 1266101004 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, who needs mutual recursion anyway < 1266101025 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutual recursion just leads to sadness < 1266101028 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as does regular recursion < 1266101038 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... I think I have figured out another way for computing coordinates when moving through wormholes, but that way doesn't support nested wormholes at all. But one could have multiple funge spaces connected with wormholes... < 1266101057 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: so what are the ways around it? < 1266101066 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you get rid of self-reference, you won't have nasty paradoxes < 1266101077 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Switching your DNS server? < 1266101089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just remembering the IP address of Google < 1266101093 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(An IP address) < 1266101101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : there's no other didactism, teaching is just an attempt to direct focus. < 1266101105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea how to switch DNS server ofc < 1266101107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've not been able to state it better < 1266101139 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard it better; it's on the walls of my school better < 1266101147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/better$/somewhere/ < 1266101157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the irony. < 1266101169 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266101180 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here i thought it was my own thinking < 1266101204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Linux: /etc/resolv.conf; Windows Vista: Control Panel -> Network and Sharing Center -> Manage Network Connections -> right-click your connection -> Properties -> TCP/IPv4 -> Properties -> Use the following DNS server addresses < 1266101251 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that's easier than asking someone? that's like... 8 clicks! < 1266101252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway is there a list from which i can choose? < 1266101276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because sort of hard to get addresses if you're offline < 1266101297 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wuut < 1266101331 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: 8.8.8.8, 4.2.2.2 for example < 1266101357 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1266101388 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, just memorize/write down some public ones :-P < 1266101445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure that's very useful < 1266101453 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess if you need to do that often < 1266101525 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266101573 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay what should i write in this thing < 1266101601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivialities like fibs and append aren't really much of a test case < 1266101625 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a good test case < 1266101641 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something slightly more complicated < 1266101679 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a kernel. < 1266101690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make an OS kernel a one-linear. < 1266101693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One-liner, even. < 1266101718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's one slight problem < 1266101724 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't write a one-liner in clue < 1266101759 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you can < 1266101797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: write life < 1266101823 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's good, although maybe 110 first < 1266101857 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should add infinite lists........................................................ < 1266101862 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooooooo! < 1266101876 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266101879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with infinite lists < 1266101888 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite lists are IMPLAUSIBLE < 1266101903 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yeah that's a good point < 1266101968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implausible how. < 1266102068 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, first of all infinity is a REALLY big number < 1266102113 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: infinity = infinity + 1 < 1266102116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roughly that big. < 1266102117 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266102130 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point, it's even bigger < 1266102133 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, oklopol, wanna hear something cool about natural language? :o < 1266102136 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266102139 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur! < 1266102140 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266102153 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266102173 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi auglet < 1266102201 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that M("brown") = \x.brown(x) < 1266102217 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, the meaning of the word "brown" is some predicate of brownness) < 1266102221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and M("cow") = \x.cow(x) < 1266102254 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266102274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is supposing the ass of those truths < 1266102280 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to be the case that humans are only capable of learning that M([a b]) = \x.M(a)(x) && M(b)(x) < 1266102297 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1266102312 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie [brown cow] = \x.M("brown")(x) && M("cow")(x) = \x.brown(x) && cow(x) < 1266102348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not possible that M([a b]) = \x.M(a)(x) || M(b)(x) < 1266102360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course a brown cow isn't either brown or a cow? < 1266102363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or'm I missing something < 1266102364 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. M([brown cow]) = \x.brown(x) || cow(x) < 1266102371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the point! < 1266102375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1266102383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, humans cannot learn that [big toy] is in fact a small rabbit < 1266102384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is that languages just plain don't do that. < 1266102387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. < 1266102390 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, in _practice_, a "brown cow" is not something that is either brown OR a cow < 1266102398 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266102418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not merely a happenstance thing about existing languages < 1266102419 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought of it as brown(cow) < 1266102422 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't it that? < 1266102423 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a fact about POSSIBLE languages < 1266102433 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because cow is a concept, not a thing. :P < 1266102466 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brown(cow) surely denotes that the CONCEPT cow is brown < 1266102470 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that all cows or brown < 1266102471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, [brown cow] could then be applied to something else. < 1266102475 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1266102484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, [brown cow dance]. < 1266102485 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well alright that does make sense what you are sayng < 1266102489 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: also, kids can indeed learn that "big toy" means "small rabbit" < 1266102493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(silly example, but gets the point across) < 1266102523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like they can learn that "brown cow" means "rootbeer float made with chocolate icecream not vanilla < 1266102544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't learn as in physically can't? < 1266102548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i have a new thing to try on my future kids < 1266102569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in you can try to teach a kid a new adjective and/or a new noun < 1266102576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it "prown" and "gow" < 1266102584 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such that a "prown gow" is either brown, or a cow (or both < 1266102585 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1266102599 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and kids cant get it. < 1266102618 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now, he's going to try to make a conlang with that as a grammatical feature just to fuck with his kids. :P < 1266102618 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where something that is just "prown" is brown < 1266102623 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and something that is just a "gow" is a cow < 1266102632 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goat < 1266102652 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: how do you test something like this? < 1266102656 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for whatever reason, in natural language, syntactic concatenation = semantic conjunction < 1266102658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's a genius reckless. < 1266102660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT WHICH < 1266102673 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: acquisition labs < 1266102679 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266102685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jeff Lidz has an acquisition lab < 1266102697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically we try to teach kids novel words or constructions < 1266102709 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds cool < 1266102711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they can learn a lot of them really easily < 1266102719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they cant learn some of them at all < 1266102731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway who cares about kids, they're retards anyway, i bet i could learn a language where concatenation is disjunction. < 1266102740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is both clever and obvious. < 1266102743 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not as a natural language :) < 1266102775 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would not be able to employ it in such a fashion naturally. your usage would, rather quickly, come to use concatenation to mean conjunction. thats the weird and crazy thing. < 1266102780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or heres another one < 1266102780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so basically it's kid guinea pigging :) < 1266102793 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes :) < 1266102796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it's just because conjunction is far more common than disjunction < 1266102803 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantifiers (words like "all", "some", "every", etc.) must obey the following rule < 1266102824 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i don't believe that < 1266102828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"all X are/do Y" must mean the same as "all X are X's that are/do Y" < 1266102837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "all dogs bark" = "all dogs are dogs that bark" < 1266102863 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of what? < 1266102863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now im going to bet that this ALSO seems pretty fucking obvious < 1266102900 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but consider that if "all" is just some binary subset function, e.g. "all X Y" = X ⊆ Y < 1266102912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then why cant we have "lall X Y" = Y ⊆ X? < 1266102920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loll X Y < 1266102921 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "lall dogs bark" = "all barkers are dogs" < 1266102923 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266102933 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it was quite intentional :) < 1266102936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tangential, but I always find it weird when people talk about Noam Chomsky in the context of politics. < 1266102958 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU/Chomsky < 1266102959 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why? hes one of the leading far left political commentators < 1266102986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I always think of his work on formal grammars. < 1266102991 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1266103001 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i don't think "not as a natural language" means anything, natural languages are much harder to talk in than, say, math < 1266103020 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No, much easier. < 1266103024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ofcourse they are, but thats because natural language is complicated in weird and hard-to-understand ways < 1266103031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you always end up explaining anything even slightly complicated on paper, because natural languages are so crappy < 1266103031 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its not entirely arbitrary, either < 1266103033 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You talk in a natural language without thinking about it all the time. < 1266103035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Math, you think about. < 1266103050 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: math isnt hardwired into our brains ;) < 1266103053 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objectively, its easier. < 1266103057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Well, yes. < 1266103066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what makes it easier... < 1266103066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its also precise, and well defined < 1266103071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we understand it < 1266103083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, we understand how to understand statements in math < 1266103093 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? often while proving things i'm thinking about something else < 1266103097 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we understand why those statements mean what they mean because we defined them < 1266103100 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if it's something simple < 1266103123 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but natural language has completely crazy, bizarre constraints on its mapping from form to meaning < 1266103130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heres a purely grammatical one, pikhq < 1266103135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what a cyclic permutation is? < 1266103148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Not entirely. < 1266103159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I may find it obvious once you describe it. < 1266103160 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a cyclic permutation? < 1266103169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My knowledge of linguistics is very... Vague. < 1266103176 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its math, actually, but < 1266103189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my knowledge of math is incomplete. < 1266103205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a cyclic permutation is basically an arrangement of some set of items such that the relative ordering is the same, including looping around to the beginning again < 1266103221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the obvious meaning associated with those words. < 1266103225 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. the cyclic permutations of "abcde" are "abcde", "bcdea", "cdeab", "deabc", and "eabcd" < 1266103261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so permutations that have just one cycle or whatever it's called < 1266103265 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cyclic permutations are _impossible_, as far as anyone can tell, as grammatical rules. < 1266103296 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1266103311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I ate the food" "Food I ate the" "The food I ate" "Ate the food I". < 1266103336 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just thinking it over < 1266103342 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1266103345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, lets not use that as an example < 1266103346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as grammatical rules, how? < 1266103364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in what sense, well i guess any sense? < 1266103368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say, instead, that there are some adjective classes, e.g. color, size, subjective judgement < 1266103389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. red, small, and pretty < 1266103417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say its then grammatical to have them in that cyclic order: color, size, judgement < 1266103421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K. < 1266103438 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, now i keep reading all concatenations as disjunctions < 1266103438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such that "red small pretty button" "small pretty red button" and "pretty red small button" are fine < 1266103440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nothing else is < 1266103454 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cyclic order" is a bit of a brainteaser < 1266103474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that context < 1266103576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1266103581 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I read that Sumarian doesn't have any order < 1266103582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or lets take verbal auxiliaries < 1266103592 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so every cyclic permutation of words meant the same thing < 1266103596 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"john has been being an ass lately" < 1266103606 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i believe testing this stuff on kids tells us anything, but i suppose most people do believe kids can learn languages. < 1266103609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even better "john will have been being an ass" < 1266103620 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something i seriously doubt < 1266103632 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that wont work actually haha < 1266103636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... You doubt children can learn languages. < 1266103643 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets just say its "john will have been an ass" < 1266103649 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that order, will-have-be < 1266103653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, you merely became fluent at the age of 18. < 1266103654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266103664 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let that be the cyclic ordering of those auxiliaries < 1266103681 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, i mean sure they can mangle some sorta crap, but a kids aren't fluent speakers, you learn languages explicitly, when you're older < 1266103681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such that "john will have been an ass" = "john have been will an ass" = "john been will have an ass" < 1266103689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not something kids can learn < 1266103695 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-a < 1266103714 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no, kids DO learn languages quite well < 1266103717 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266103719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a mistake to assume otherwise. < 1266103734 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formal training in "Proper" language is entirely bullshit < 1266103743 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you speak is language < 1266103747 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in my experience < 1266103747 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266103754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anyway. < 1266103768 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are just these constraints on what is a possible human language < 1266103779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they dont seem to be objectively motivatable < 1266103788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You sound like a prescriptionist. < 1266103793 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cyclic permutations especially, since humans can do perfectly well on them when its not language < 1266103795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i'm a prescriptionist < 1266103803 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is just silly. < 1266103809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would be too, if you knew how crappy natural languages are < 1266103827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also sound silly. I knew proper, formal English from a young age... < 1266103827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you'd stop being one if you realized how crappy prescription actually is ;) < 1266103847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prescriptivist, you idiots < 1266103850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's prescriptivist! < 1266103853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're IDIOTS! < 1266103862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please say prescriptivist. prescriptionist is just wrong. < 1266103862 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ITS PRESCRIPTIONIST NOW. MUAHAHAHAH. < 1266103864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural language is extremely good at doing what it was evolved to do < 1266103864 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266103865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously, don't even talk about them < 1266103867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be a descriptivist < 1266103869 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats NOT math. < 1266103869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GET IT GUYS GET IT < 1266103877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT'S A DESCRIPTIVIST BEING PRESCRIPTIVIST ABOUT THE WORD PRESCRIPTIVIST < 1266103879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no it's not < 1266103883 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sucks at it. < 1266103887 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt < 1266103891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1266103903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Propose some alternatives? < 1266103910 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it sucks objectively speaking, but you cant make it better < 1266103913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, use lojban or something < 1266103928 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lojban is either just as sucky, or impossible to use naturally. :) < 1266103937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not true < 1266103940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is. < 1266103948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not. < 1266103951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is. < 1266103951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Fluent" speakers produce Lojban that doesn't parse quite right. :P < 1266103953 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266103954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not. < 1266103960 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is, oklopol. < 1266103965 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not, augur. < 1266103977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the human language faculty is what it is. < 1266103991 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if lojban does not fit this mold, then it simply cannot be used naturally. < 1266104006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it does fit this mold, then it is subject to all of the problems that non-lojban languages are subject to. < 1266104030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Well, all of the problems that *all* non-lojban languages are subject to. < 1266104038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna go to sleep now, you keep on dreaming; in any case, that was interesting stuff, is there a comprehensive listing of these testings? < 1266104038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't care, communication sucks anyway < 1266104055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i agree. lets just fuck instead. < 1266104057 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266104057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can at least avoid certain of them, like "having a spelling that is completely unrelated to how it's spoken". < 1266104060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex works < 1266104062 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural sex. < 1266104073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: thats not language tho, thats orthography < 1266104080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but orthography is already unnatural. < 1266104081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: True. < 1266104097 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, "completely unrelated" is a difficult thing to explain. < 1266104109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. Yeah. < 1266104119 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural languages don't have variables and proper mathematical quantifiers, i guess that's the thing i hate about them most < 1266104130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english orthography, except for some rough patches, is actually quite decently transparent. < 1266104135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just not compositionally transparent. < 1266104142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: actually they do :) < 1266104160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the variables are just not as easilly handled, and the quantifiers require bigger phrases. < 1266104195 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, in other words the most fundamental concepts of communication suck ass < 1266104217 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for what theyre designed to do! :) < 1266104228 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it suck??? < 1266104253 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sucks because oklopol is trolling is all. < 1266104256 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hes a robot < 1266104261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Transparent? Mmm. Well, the spelling at least has some affiliation with the pronunciation. < 1266104262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, i'm not trolling < 1266104265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really sleep -> < 1266104273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it varies based upon etymology. < 1266104274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also answer my question if you have the time < 1266104274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266104489 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so yeah. find a good explanation for these things. < 1266104494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its tricky! < 1266104648 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266104841 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266104911 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hail, oerjan. < 1266104935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I asked oklopol to ask the little copy of you in his head, but he didn't, so: it *is* possible to write a bidirectional parser, right? < 1266104937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes? Good. < 1266104943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm 99% sure it is, so.) < 1266104953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what is a bidirectional parser < 1266104954 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by bidirectional? < 1266104972 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's both gay directional and straightdirectional < 1266104973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gaydirectional < 1266104982 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266104997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that works. < 1266105017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try with homo- and hetero- < 1266105021 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the definition of gay, is it just "same sex" or "at least same sex" < 1266105025 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266105031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's better < 1266105069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say it's evilly mixing greek and latin roots, but the -sexual versions already do that < 1266105105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but can homo- or gay include bi's? < 1266105116 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :homo- can't < 1266105140 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds kinda stupid < 1266105140 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay < 1266105152 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes. it is possible. < 1266105154 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I add a quote to the bot? < 1266105160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : `addquote < 1266105183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gay(x) = sex(x)==sex(me); straight(x) = sex(x)!=sex(me); bi(x) = gay(x) || straight(x); < 1266105189 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am bidirectional parser curious < 1266105193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where orientation(x) = "is it okay to consider this relationship under this sexuality" < 1266105198 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dabble a bit in pretty printing and sexy parsing < 1266105212 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parsing isn't sexy < 1266105214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really annoying < 1266105217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is < 1266105221 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266105225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah maybe < 1266105230 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1266105234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further constraints may be applied of course < 1266105245 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay < 1266105250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pansexual = bi + any other constraint considering gender is omitted < 1266105253 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :129| bi is like sqrt(2)/2 * straight + i * sqrt(2)/2 * gay < 1266105259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: thats not what bi means :p < 1266105270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: bidi parser = one parser definition does both [tok] -> a and a -> [tok] < 1266105282 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its an interesting interpretation! < 1266105286 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sounds like something you'd do with prolog < 1266105289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you can prefer one gender over the other in bi < 1266105298 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is true. < 1266105298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the functions I wrote meant "is this okay by this orientation" < 1266105301 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes my brain hurt :P < 1266105312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pansexuality is basically bisexuality with both sexes having the same weight < 1266105313 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't get her formalism at all < 1266105324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah, well I'm doing it in haskell. < 1266105328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it is _difficult_. < 1266105346 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't forget omnisexuality < 1266105348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not really. < 1266105351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: maybe you can abuse Show/Read derivation for it? < 1266105357 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omnisexuality? does that exist < 1266105359 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pansexual is the fancier version of bisexual, basically. < 1266105359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: then what do you consider pansexuality? < 1266105363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1266105363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266105368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats how pansexuals use it. < 1266105372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bisexual = I potentially like people of both genders < 1266105378 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because would be nice to have a word that actually means what pansexuality should mean < 1266105385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pansexual = I do not consider gender when deciding whether I like someone < 1266105389 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omnisexual = I fuck everything < 1266105389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :panisexual: attracted to bread < 1266105390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the "official" definitionerition < 1266105393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: this is not the case. < 1266105399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: wikipedia agrees qed < 1266105401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1266105403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pansexual is a faggot term < 1266105405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wait < 1266105414 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well wikipedia is irrelevant. :P < 1266105430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus is your mother. < 1266105430 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :biosexual: Attracted to anything living < 1266105433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Can't make a derived instance of `Show (Syntax t a)' < 1266105434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (Constructor `Sequence' does not have a Haskell-98 type) < 1266105437 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god things annoy me today < 1266105437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fukkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk yuuuuuuuuu < 1266105449 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up oklopol GOD!!! I can't belive you sometimes < 1266105452 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's partly because my head hurts like hell < 1266105462 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hexosexual: Attracted to six. < 1266105466 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pansexual is so stupid :( < 1266105470 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate that word < 1266105478 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you're going to be discussing these, please use the specific definitions of gender and sex < 1266105480 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i vaguely recall someone doing something something typeclass polymorphic to get both directions of parsing in haskell. but maybe i'm confusing it with something else. < 1266105495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i'm basing it on a utopian world where people consider gender, not sex < 1266105508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly for sexual relationships it needs ... somewhat of an adjustment < 1266105512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exercise for the reader < 1266105520 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: regarding bidirectional parsing, i presume you mean from either end of the input string? < 1266105527 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:54 < oerjan> alise: sounds like something you'd do with prolog < 1266105533 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes oerjan has a good point < 1266105540 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a few programs you write as DCGs are invertible < 1266105556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no, I mean that one syntax definition generates both a parser and a printer < 1266105572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically imagine String->a, to generate a->String you just swap LHS and RHS, basically < 1266105585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like that, with all the difficulties I omitted, with lots of extra trouble because parsers aren't that simple in actuality < 1266105599 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't swap LHS and RHS>.. < 1266105615 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise by the way have you seen Shin-Cheng Mus invertible programming language? < 1266105651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes but you can get close to swapping it < 1266105652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also no < 1266105653 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh. well, thats not a bidirectional parser. ;p < 1266105661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: and your mom is a whore. :| < 1266105665 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1266105671 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MissPiggy: shut up oklopol GOD!!! I can't belive you sometimes" <<< what was this in reference to, your msgs come one pageful at a tim < 1266105672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1266105763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pansexuality? < 1266105776 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okpause it's re. 23:56 < oklopol> god things annoy me today, < 1266105805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okpause? < 1266105819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, nobody else finds oklopol annoying < 1266105840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Besides bidirectional polytypic examples, including invertible serialization, we give the definition of a monadic bi-arrow transformer, which we use to construct a bidirectional parser/pretty printer." < 1266105849 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet many people here find me annoying < 1266105856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: link me so I can remind myself to read it if I fail horribly at this < 1266105859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.citeulike.org/user/voigt/article/342287 < 1266105872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really would like a nice Parsec-lite (I know it can't be as powerful by definition) bidi parser lib < 1266105875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: aha! so its not a "bidirectional parser" its a bidrectional (parser/pretty-printer) < 1266105878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you may need some help to get behind the ACM wall < 1266105881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would make toy languages so much nicer < 1266105888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jehova's witnesses came today < 1266105890 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear augur is useful for that < 1266105894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write one quick syntax definition and I get my pretty-printer free < 1266105897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah, thanks < 1266105904 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1266105910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jehovah's Type Witnesses. < 1266105919 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i told them they had an interesting viewpoint and said i don't really have strong opinions about anything < 1266105919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disciples of Agda < 1266105920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a joke alise < 1266105928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :important figures include the prophet Coq < 1266105930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: oh, right < 1266105937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's just that you're normally like that so I wasn't sure :D < 1266105941 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266105941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was another one of them jokes) < 1266105945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: HA < 1266105955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoulda taped it < 1266105973 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never talked to any jumping johosephats < 1266105995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sequence :: Syntax t b -> (b -> Syntax t a) -> Syntax t a < 1266106002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops, looks like a monad slipped in < 1266106033 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/p86-alimarine.pdf < 1266106036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it was just the first google hit for bidirectional parsing haskell, anyhow < 1266106075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoulda taped what? < 1266106078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the witnesses? < 1266106083 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i often talk to them < 1266106085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266106088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i told them they had an interesting viewpoint and said i don't really have strong opinions about anything < 1266106089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comedy gold < 1266106105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266106128 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you like my responsiveness? :) < 1266106173 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur what's that? < 1266106185 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the link is the paper that oerjan is referring to < 1266106193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from behind ACM access barriers < 1266106194 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'm afraid of being too frank with jehovas, i'm afraid something i say makes them understand they're completely wasting their life, which i find a horrible thought < 1266106197 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awwors < 1266106217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol you rare nice :) < 1266106224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm always careful around people who i think are doing something wrong < 1266106230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: didn't even notice whoa < 1266106240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you should set up a website that automates that :P < 1266106241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get sued < 1266106248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266106250 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: dunno, i think i'm just a coward < 1266106251 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1266106259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is more that i couldnt even make it work < 1266106266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ACM search tool doesnt work right < 1266106272 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am hello < 1266106303 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm afraid of convincing people about anything, because if i convinced them about something that's wrong, that would be just horrible < 1266106331 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well don't worry about convincing me of anything < 1266106334 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I don't mind < 1266106337 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact I like it < 1266106358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you heard me talk about stuff? i'm not very convincing. < 1266106369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266106378 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's just a reason for you not to be worried, not me < 1266106386 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: "If you take the life lie from an average man, you take away his happiness as well." < 1266106401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ibsen) < 1266106423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate it when my crazy thoughts are shared by less crazy people < 1266106434 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so crazy about ____________ < 1266106451 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing really < 1266106453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the translation is a bit deceiving, the norwegian "med det samme" can mean "at once" as well as "as well" < 1266106515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also the original is gender neutral) < 1266106531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, except from pronouns, which cannot be < 1266106628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the life lie" is awkward < 1266106637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the life's lie", maybe. < 1266106672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. the original is "livsløgnen", which i suspect was a word ibsen invented but which is immediately understandable < 1266106683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i prefer life lie < 1266106683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it looks like a typoed life line < 1266106683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...or maybe for some other reason < 1266106727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the -s- is just for word combining, although it _is_ etymologically a genitive ending) < 1266106741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah utilitarianism and knowledgeisawesomeism are kind of conflicting < 1266106744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which disturbs me < 1266106859 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ethics is too complicated < 1266106948 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ibsen er trolig årsaken til at begrepet livsløgn er i allmenn bruk i de nordiske land, mens den engelske oversettelsen life lie riktignok blir brukt men i mindre omfang." < 1266106983 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. it's used in the nordic countries, but not much in english (which is why i could only find it on norwegian wikipedia i presume < 1266106999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1266107017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also in german) < 1266107128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/pages/3546/The-Life-Lie.html is in english < 1266107201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266107267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I have an idea for making sure all the values are used in the resulting AST < 1266107282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give it back as a Foo x instead of an x, where the value-constructing function takes Foo xs instead of xs < 1266107295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, you can keep track of the state of which values you've demanded < 1266107301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't just go yeah demand it >> ignore the result < 1266107305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can't personally do it < 1266107330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that Foo a monad return or a comonadic coreturn... < 1266107415 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait coreturn would be Foo a -> a < 1266107416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just < 1266107424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Foo a = Foo a < 1266107427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the constructor is not exposed < 1266107434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so only the value-constructor can dereference them < 1266107442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when it does, it'll mark that parse result as used < 1266107454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have any unused results at the end, you are a very naughty boy < 1266107463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it cannot be unparsed without specifying a default value somewhere < 1266107465 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feels like a monad then < 1266107489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it feels like a monad and it quacks like a monad... < 1266107492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, you might not expose something for >>= or join either < 1266107506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266107543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right if you had those you could do >> and ignore the result, so not allowed < 1266107600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this will be a lot easier if i define `type Bijection a b = (a->b, b->a) < 1266107615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that PP t a = Bijection [t] a < 1266107649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266107652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe [t]) (Maybe a) < 1266107663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i could do with some fromJust there or sth < 1266107686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type UncertainBijection a b = (a->Maybe b, b->Maybe a) :P < 1266107698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it needs to be Maybe (a,[t]) anyway... < 1266107910 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UncertainBijection? < 1266107915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :P < 1266107938 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes well you definitely don't have a bijection between text and syntax < 1266107952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shaddap < 1266107954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is useful though < 1266107958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maptok :: Bijection t u -> SD t a -> SD u a < 1266107958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maptok (f,g) (p,u) = < 1266107958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (\xs -> maybe Nothing (\(a,xs') -> (a, f xs')) $ p (map g xs) < 1266107958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ,\a -> maybe Nothing (\xs -> map f xs) (u a)) < 1266107959 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why it is useful < 1266107980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, that doesn't quite type yet :D < 1266108001 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266108083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maptok :: Bijection t u -> SD t a -> SD u a < 1266108083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maptok (f,g) (p,u) = < 1266108083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (\xs -> maybe Nothing (\(a,xs') -> Just (a, map f xs')) $ p (map g xs) < 1266108083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ,\a -> maybe Nothing (\xs -> Just (map f xs)) (u a)) < 1266108084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1266108141 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :HPGrice < 1266108150 0 :HPGrice!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1266108793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1266108798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: does that paper include an implementation? < 1266108845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck if i know, i only googled it < 1266108858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1266108861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and maybe vaguely recalled hearing about it) < 1266108888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, maybe search for the author home pages? < 1266108985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the article is on citeseerx, so the ACM wall wasn't necessary < 1266108987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think this would be - no you wouldn't < 1266109135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://www.cs.ru.nl/A.vanWeelden/index.php?p=downloads < 1266109162 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266109175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"generic haskell" wow < 1266109177 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266109194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it does have parser->dumper < 1266109206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but god knows it'd take four years to translate it to modern haskell < 1266109216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1266109239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generic haskell o_o < 1266109252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it has like {|x|y} and shit in arguments < 1266109263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's the predecessor to syb < 1266109274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing it via generalised invertible arrows is a good idea though < 1266109278 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pukes < 1266109283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i think it's that < 1266109431 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266109471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class Arrow arr => BiArrow arr where < 1266109472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (<->) :: (a -> b) -> (b -> a) -> arr a b < 1266109472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : inv :: arr a b -> arr b a < 1266109473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's just what i did < 1266109474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boring < 1266109543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems there is nothing based on it in hackage, although Data.Bijection refers to it < 1266109600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Data.Partial < 1266109612 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266109635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/TypeCompose/0.6.7/doc/html/Data-Bijection.html < 1266109962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION compiles Pure < 1266110070 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats Pure < 1266110092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/pure-lang/; Q's begetee < 1266110113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Less obfuscatorarily, the successor to Q. < 1266110121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1266110143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If LLVM isn't up-to-date enough on this old Ubuntu version I'll just use Q instead. < 1266110194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :de bruijn is sexy. < 1266110206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is indexes < 1266110279 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266110325 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah lol < 1266110446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking < 1266110450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependently typed tree rewriting < 1266110454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1266110455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;} < 1266110459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependently typed functional applicative < 1266110462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them is the way forward < 1266110471 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is functional applicative? < 1266110482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your regular applicative, functional language < 1266110484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell, agda, etc < 1266110487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML < 1266110537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I think I will implement Lamping < 1266110537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 's algorithm < 1266110537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in haskell < 1266110540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought haskell sucked < 1266110554 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it does and I decided not to code this < 1266110582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is so bad about haskell? < 1266110598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from dependent types which you say are overrated and unicode which you dislike it's not that far from agda < 1266110600 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy likes bugs. < 1266110601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266110605 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dont like agda either < 1266110611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does agda suck though? < 1266110612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you dislike Unicode? < 1266110622 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said overuse is bad < 1266110623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e dislikes gratuitous unicode in languages < 1266110627 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a bit is quite fine < 1266110634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :私はあなたをころしたい! < 1266110642 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dont' know Java :( < 1266110669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ... < 1266110677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266110691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love Unicode in languages. < 1266110743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming languages e means < 1266110755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1266110757 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm ambivalent towards it < 1266110761 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the one hand I like the concept < 1266110765 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand it's a bitch to type < 1266110812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm solving that problem by defining a not-entirely-pretty ASCII representation, and an all-out no-holds-barred TeX'd-up two-dimensional symbolerific presentation form. < 1266110824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good editor would let you type the former to write the latter. < 1266110828 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1266110831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically like Fortress does. < 1266110833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:24 < MissPiggy> cizra what about prolog? < 1266110839 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:25 < cizra> MissPiggy: Haven't shown her that (= It's too hairy for my tastes < 1266110844 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:26 < cizra> MissPiggy: Might be.. But I don't know much Prolog, so it'd be perilous to teach it to a newb. < 1266110867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ "I hate prolog it's $vauge-and-meaningless-negative-term" --> "I don't know anything about prolog" < 1266110872 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266110886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he didn't say I hate prolog < 1266110889 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266110911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He said it's too hairy for his tastes, i.e. his personal sthetic response to it is a negative one, expressed as "hairy". < 1266110923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe he has bad taste, but that's an opinion too. :P < 1266110949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, not much != nothing < 1266111088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jane@jane-desktop:~/pure/pure-0.42$ pure < 1266111088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault < 1266111102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked in /usr/local >_< < 1266111113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ pure < 1266111113 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahaahahahahahahaa < 1266111113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash: pure: command not found < 1266111115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha WHAT < 1266111125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... it removed itself < 1266111133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i didn't actually make install < 1266111133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266111138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but, WHAT) < 1266111147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol it seppuku < 1266111153 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish GNU/Prolog would seppuku < 1266111154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there was no pure(1) :-D < 1266111162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its ghost went ohai then transcended < 1266111163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why? < 1266111165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swi fan? :P < 1266111173 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I hate swi as well :(( < 1266111178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you like < 1266111181 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it's the best prolog implementation in the world < 1266111200 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hate swi because they got right of "no.") < 1266111215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd've though swi would be the prolog for swine < 1266111225 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1266111247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thought < 1266111279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, right of "no."? < 1266111294 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I just found some awesome papers about lambda shared graph reduction < 1266111316 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what's "right of "no."?" supposed to mean? < 1266111324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-? < 1266111358 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: should have said 'rid of', when you do something in prolog and it fails it should print: no. -- but they changed it to print: false instead.. so they can claim the prolog query is a partial evaluation < 1266111363 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evaluator < 1266111396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: lol pure actually has features from aardappel < 1266111397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the esolang < 1266111399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and credits it with them < 1266111460 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://strlen.com/aardappel/ ? < 1266111489 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266112029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266112040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the creator of Saurbrauten and FALSE < 1266112050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Sauerbraten < 1266112424 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :potato! :D < 1266112540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure is sexy < 1266112630 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266112661 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally I fixed my OpenID service. (I just got a different library, and wrote the forms and stuff myself, using that library.) < 1266112701 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1266112908 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is currently a single-user service, but I could upgrade it to multi-user service, too. < 1266112925 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that that would help you any :P < 1266113006 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course I don't need multi-user service, but I can program it as such in case anyone else wants a OpenID service on my server (you have to provide the Identity URL, Login Name, and Password MD5 Hash, and then I *might* consider it, but I will never support automated registration of accounts on my service) < 1266113127 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I can also add multi-user service just in case I might want multiple OpenID just by myself, even. < 1266113167 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the library I used, in case you are interested: http://openidenabled.com/php-openid/ < 1266113206 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the library that Hackiki uses as a consumer too :P < 1266113226 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, thanks. < 1266113236 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it can work! < 1266113275 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seems to be a few things missing in the documentation, though. < 1266113308 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such as any useful documentation whatsoever :P < 1266113342 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I did eventually figure it out, and it isn't really that difficult. < 1266113470 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just tried to log in on Hackiki and it works perfectly fine. < 1266113648 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki is a bit strange features, it even allows anyone to edit the way the wiki syntax works < 1266113688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the primary feature :P < 1266113704 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know it is < 1266113827 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently I end every line with a tongue-smiley :P < 1266113899 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes my misuse of smileys gets out of hand. < 1266113932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Alas. < 1266113937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : hexosexual: Attracted to six. <-- last found counterexample < 1266113966 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird that both of those unrelated lines came at once :P < 1266114031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I segfaulted pure \o/ < 1266114043 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266114057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 3 % 3; < 1266114057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: a%1 = a; < 1266114057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: a%1 = a; < 1266114057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: a%b = a div d%(b div d) when d = gcd a b end; < 1266114057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: gcd a 0 = a; < 1266114058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: gcd a b = gcd b (a mod b); < 1266114060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: gcd a 0 = a; < 1266114062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: rule never reduced: gcd a b = gcd b (a mod b); < 1266114064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Segmentation fault < 1266114068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may not fully understand how to use this language < 1266114073 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol fault < 1266114082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out it's just a crap implementation < 1266114084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faultblog.org < 1266114090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's just an immature impl < 1266114091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new lang < 1266114096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy technology < 1266114097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266114164 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("Does this still work?") < 1266114173 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this still work? < 1266114178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, it's the % name < 1266114180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poop works < 1266114190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> poop 3 3; < 1266114190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1266114190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> poop 73 9; < 1266114190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[hang] < 1266114211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid thing < 1266114312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368162 < 1266114315 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are you capable of reminding yourself? Tomorrow may be a mess for me < 1266114317 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :space walk starting soon < 1266114321 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you like video of space < 1266114344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ok < 1266114394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: cool they're talking and stuff < 1266114403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing the earth swirl is whoa, never realised it was so... fast, i guess < 1266114407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1266114407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff < 1266114441 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266114465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find space terrifying :/ < 1266114477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the sheer emptiness, just the sheer... sheerness < 1266114488 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what you mean < 1266114567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poop a 1 = a; < 1266114568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poop a b = Poop (a div d) (b div d) when d = gcd a b end; < 1266114571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem here is when d = 1 < 1266114578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes into an infinite loop < 1266114581 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :space man is out!!!!!! < 1266114587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg /me unpause < 1266114587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1266114593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCKIN LOAD < 1266114595 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just wormed out :D < 1266114598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's hiding lol < 1266114606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266114609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :camofuckinflauge < 1266114619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa i thought this place was bigger than that < 1266114621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in space everything is wapped in future < 1266114623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, giant man < 1266114625 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1266114627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is stuck to the lid < 1266114639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure this is not a robot < 1266114639 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's just trolling < 1266114640 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore him < 1266114653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, wapped in future? < 1266114654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1266114656 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's mostly robot.. the way he moves etc < 1266114662 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's a person inside it < 1266114674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HE WAS ARTIFICIAL... < 1266114676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT HE HAD... < 1266114677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A HUMAN SOUL < 1266114681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPACEWALKER < 1266114682 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1266114683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In cinemas this summer < 1266114746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is he doing with that thing he is holding < 1266114753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just sort of admiring it? < 1266114854 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god there's two of them < 1266114860 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!!! what if they breed !!!! < 1266114906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was actually my first thought < 1266114910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've no idea why < 1266114912 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::))) < 1266115031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: tree rewriting 'pinyun from you so I can blame or not blame Pure < 1266115033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poop a b = Poop (a div d) (b div d) when d = gcd a b end; < 1266115038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if d = 1, this reduces to Poop a b < 1266115048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should this be an infinite loop, or should the equality of the reduction halt evaluation? < 1266115057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should halt! < 1266115068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. that was my expectation too. but, < 1266115072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then how do you write an infinite loop? < 1266115092 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loop = do nothing `then` loop < 1266115104 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = do nothing `then` do nothing `then` loop < 1266115111 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like a monad ? < 1266115117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just seq < 1266115124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seq is semantically nonsense in a pure language < 1266115128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try again < 1266115142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that causes heap overflow if you run it long enough < 1266115238 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266115357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you seeing this first person space cam? < 1266115370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, seq has some semantic meaning in a pure language. Just exceptionally useless meaning. < 1266115384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defined as follows: _ `seq` b = b < 1266115387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266115433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i stopped watching :/ < 1266115441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well also _|_ `seq` b = _|_ < 1266115445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but _|_ is nonsense! < 1266115451 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heheheh. < 1266115462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you could pattern-match on _|_ you'd define < 1266115467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_|_ `seq` _ = _|_ < 1266115469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ `seq` b = b < 1266115480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but turing shat on that party before we even thought of it < 1266115491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damned halting problem. < 1266115496 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't like space!!!!! < 1266115501 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are an enemy of space < 1266115656 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can pattern match on _|_, but only if the result is _|_ < 1266115667 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: When you use medit (the meta-editor), it always creates a file that uses the .wiki wiki engine, which puts its own HTML template around the page. It has a hidden chebang line. Use edit, change the chebang line to any other language (e.g. bash), and you can control the whole page. < 1266115700 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Oh, didn't see the latest edits. < 1266115719 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: In that case, use /bin/bash and do something like cat < < 1266115772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is (! _) `seq` x = x a legal definition of seq in haskell... < 1266115815 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, thanks. But still: Why doesn't #!/bin/grep -v ^#! works? It works on the MinGW command-line if the command is entered manually on the MinGW command-line. < 1266115830 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Then mingw doesn't handle chebang lines properly. < 1266115835 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1266115839 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the command is entered manually. < 1266115855 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: chebang lines don't support multiple arguments. Everything after the command is taken as one argument, potentially with spaces. < 1266115856 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MinGW creates the same error if you try to execute the file. < 1266115870 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, so that's why. < 1266115974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's shebang. < 1266115986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait ! patterns are an extension < 1266115989 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Is there really a correct spelling of a word that's nonsense? :P < 1266115991 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, definitely shebang. < 1266115999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's not nonsense. < 1266116006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chebang is an archaic spelling of shebang, i.e. stuff and lots and everything and whatnot, but shebang as jargon is spelled with an s. < 1266116006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's a contraction of "hash-bang". < 1266116013 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where hash is # and bang is ! < 1266116027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And because it lets you say "I accidentally the whole shebang" < 1266116038 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chez-le-bang < 1266116052 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Quay? I thought it was just the onomatopoeia, like che-BANG! < 1266116055 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that it overlaps with "stuff" and such is... I'm not sure what. < 1266116104 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still use chebang, so fleh you :P < 1266116154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shebangsexual, i.e. she bangs the shebang. < 1266116163 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X-D < 1266116164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*she bangs shebangs < 1266116170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(why did I do it the worse way first?) < 1266116172 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She bangs the whole chebang < 1266116388 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise they are flying into a sunset < 1266116420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they breeding < 1266116432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet lol < 1266116444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just putting up a tent or something < 1266116444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the space went off < 1266116446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am bored now < 1266116506 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh? I created a file and now when I try to edit it, it is blank. But other than that, the file still works. < 1266116559 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1266116573 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're in space still... < 1266116580 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Should probably move this convo to #hackiki :P < 1266116592 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1266116678 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266116770 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he really had to leave here to go there :P < 1266116796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually he might, didn't his personal irc client only allow 1 channel per server? < 1266117316 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly. Actually, wasn't it similar to my RawIRC? That is, he could be on multiple channels, but since he's just getting raw messages, it'd be confusing. < 1266117474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is like that, yes < 1266117639 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is rather... Odd. < 1266117656 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1266117713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't say. < 1266117912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well _someone_ has to help the rest of us feel almost normal < 1266118104 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266118457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266118478 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.249.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266118789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pure-lang.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pure/lib/quasiquote.pure quasiquoting in Pure, with syntax, implemented inside the language < 1266118977 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266119076 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool! < 1266119344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah that's what you get with flexible ops + term rewriting + a simpler quoting operation (in this case, ' = quote) < 1266119380 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise ummm question is.. < 1266119396 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you still have a curry-howard interpretation with dependent term rewriting? < 1266119410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the lambda calculus is a term rewriting system < 1266119427 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no like this crazy stuff < 1266119431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terms are close enough to functions with slightly odd behaviour that i'm sure you could formulate a very similar isomorphism < 1266119443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well this crazy stuff is just because pure has quote :P < 1266119447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because < 1266119447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def quasiquote x = qq (quote x); < 1266119448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a macro < 1266119456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so quasiquote 2+2 -> qq (quote 2+2) < 1266119468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually just an ast processor, more or less. < 1266119519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: btw term languages solve the expression problem < 1266119544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :untyped languages like Pure do it by letting you extend terms, and having sugar for "typed" things < 1266119553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since terms are untyped you can extend them at will < 1266119569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so there's no _obligation_ to defined all the terms in the table for the new row < 1266119573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it almost solves it < 1266119583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing in my typed one, basically < 1266119714 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loll how does it solve expression problem < 1266119718 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1266119721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can extend functions basically < 1266119724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost same thing < 1266119729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with values of different types) < 1266119733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for args) < 1266119736 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does expression problem demand that the compiler tells you if there's a cell in the matrix missing? < 1266119746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's the missing piece < 1266119750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it breaks safety < 1266119758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you pass it to some code going oh it's a table i know all this will go just fine < 1266119759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KRR < 1266119761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNDEFINED FUNCTION < 1266119762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEEP BEEP BEEP < 1266119766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT DO I DO WHAT DO I *DO* < 1266119794 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DIVIDE BY CUCUMBER < 1266119810 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1266119815 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's easy to solve this in lisp :P < 1266119827 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt any language is better than lisp for the expression problem < 1266119837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from one that's built for it... < 1266119917 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah that's ture < 1266119919 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true* < 1266119952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really wish programming language manuals were written better < 1266119984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure why programmers tend to be bad writers; good English style is the same procedure as good programming style, just plugging in another set of idioms. < 1266119987 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, they're usually written by programmers :P < 1266119988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you can organise programs, why not prose? < 1266119994 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I should practice wrting < 1266120003 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because prose requires eloquence < 1266120013 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'd say it's more a matter of perspective. < 1266120034 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merely stringing together a complete and accurate description of a language is what we call an International Standard < 1266120046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Does it, though? Eloquence seems, to me, to be a rather less wishy-washy and emotional thing as everyone says it is: the creators of elegant programming languages should be able to write elegant text about it, because it's the same thing. < 1266120063 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's hardly the same thing! < 1266120068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, standards are not manuals. Standards can be eloquent too, but it matters much less, as they should be as formal as possible. < 1266120107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: In programs, we organise definitions in a certain way, split definitions up in a certain way, name variables in a certain way, order our functions' arguments in a certain way, and generally use our discretion to make the program read easier. < 1266120144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In prose, we organise text in a certain way, split text up in a certain way, (ok, that one isn't applicable), order our text in a certain way, and generally use our discretion to make the text read easier. < 1266120146 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of that applies to great prose < 1266120156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not asking for great prose, just good writing. < 1266120160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There /is/ a difference. < 1266120167 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good prose, even < 1266120179 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prose constructed by formula can be horrible < 1266120185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly, a manual is not the domain of prose; but why is it not the domain of good writing? < 1266120193 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a manual is absolutely in the domain of prose < 1266120199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: And we don't write idiomatic code by formula, either. < 1266120214 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we do! < 1266120228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But code is basically prose. < 1266120232 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly < 1266120233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just in a different language. < 1266120238 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prose has a very specific definition < 1266120247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what that is, but it's specific < 1266120253 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know programming is not it < 1266120268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever you say, I certainly think I write prose, text, whatever you wish to call whatever subset we are talking about, with the same idiomatic organisation as I do code. < 1266120273 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good prose and good programming in fact require the opposite sets of skills < 1266120305 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good prose generally needs a formulated overall concept, while the individual portions are filled in by the creativity and ability of the writer < 1266120338 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good programming needs a creative and abled programmer to set up the concept, at which point the individual portions could be completed by any semi-competent programmer < 1266120375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No; units of code call libraries, they don't "fill them in". < 1266120383 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean like that < 1266120395 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interface design is the tricky part of programming < 1266120399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, whatever; I can write good code and prose, so nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah, I clearly should write the greatest manual for the greatest language. :P < 1266120402 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good interface leads itself to be coded easily < 1266120421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In prose, the opposite is true < 1266120436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I can too! < 1266120448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use more semicolons than you. < 1266120454 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266120474 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disagree; grep the logs. < 1266120475 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-47-173.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266120532 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I don't do GUIs, does that mean I'm a bad programmer? < 1266120550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: interface design what it means fail you < 1266120556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, I wrote a huge line and it disappeared and no control-z < 1266120558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes it again < 1266120582 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: It means you're a sane programmer < 1266120591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: he thought you meant 'interface design' = gui design < 1266120595 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266120606 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, your previous sentence makes sense now < 1266120647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refined my semicolon usage by, paradoxically, ceasing to use it altogether; it was popping itself in to places where it was awkward, and I felt I was using it far too much, so I decided to abstain from it in the hopes that it would improve my writing. It crept back in, however, and with not much less frequency; but now it appeared in the right places, places that had seemed awkward in its absence. < 1266120688 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that should have been an em dash < 1266120696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where? < 1266120701 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of the semicolon < 1266120707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were two in that sentence. < 1266120715 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first sentence < 1266120721 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second also, actually < 1266120746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to avoid the em-dash, anyway; it's a very heavy piece of punctuation, and since I tend to write sentences whose clauses interlink, I postulate that it makes a sentence harder to read most of the time--for me, at least. < 1266120751 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second is certainly not an appropriate use of the semicolon; the two statements it separates should, on their own, be valid sentences. < 1266120762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, that was two hyphens; I haven't got any nice Compose setup here. < 1266120773 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use a single hyphen < 1266120777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Ah, I criticised ais523 for that once; he gave me a sound thrashing. < 1266120792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semicolons do not have to be able to be replaced by a full stop. < 1266120809 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the most part, they should < 1266120813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He presented irrefutable proof which has slipped out of my mind. < 1266120838 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are other uses of the semicolon which are valid (for instance, in lists) < 1266120849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, a semicolon followed by "and" is quite often a useful construct, though a prescriptivist would argue that starting a sentence with "And" is abhorrent. The same goes for "but". < 1266120860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I am referring to sentences. < 1266120871 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't agree it should necessarily be replaceable by a full stop, but it needs to separate full clauses < 1266120922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think my usage was correct. I might change it, if you show that it wasn't, as long as it isn't prescriptivist mumblings. < 1266120930 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually, I think I'd punctuate that sentence as follows < 1266120932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, then, you'll have to show it's wrong as in confusing or awkward. < 1266120941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or incredibly uncommon. < 1266120942 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It crept back in, however, and with not much less frequency; but now it appeared in the right places -- places that had seemed awkward in its absence." < 1266120975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, I believe that the first time I wrote that sentence, "frequency; but" was how it went. < 1266121001 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was < 1266121011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally, I think that em-dashes should only be used when the link between the two sides is weak, and the right side is heavy. < 1266121030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, of course, to serve as an alternative to parentheses for not-quite parenthical remarks. < 1266121036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*parenthetical < 1266121042 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, I think the em dash is appropriate because you repeat the noun < 1266121130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. I'd argue that a reader, rather than someone obviously looking to critique (can IRC facilitate *anything* that isn't competitive? :) ), wouldn't find it awkward. < 1266121146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something that *is* awkward: smilies before a right parenthesis. < 1266121156 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1266121158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After that abomination, I think ":))" will now be my preferred option. < 1266121171 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I usually go that route < 1266121249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://xkcd.com/541/ < 1266121256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I have the urge to substitute the / ligatures wherever those two letters appear. < 1266121264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure if that's correct, but the urge nevertheless appears. < 1266121332 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's correct in most cases where they appear adjacent < 1266121354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and to endow words like "premptive" with a diresis. < 1266121374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Interesting fact: onomatopia is not actually onomatopic.) < 1266121389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dutch uses the same mark in a similar way, (for example cofficint), but for compound words there is now a preference for hyphenation - so zeeend (seaduck) is now spelled zee-eend.[3] < 1266121400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is zeeend for you, my sea-duck-loving friend. < 1266121432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats alise -----### < 1266121444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: What was that wonderful free verse you wrote about free verse? < 1266121463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ended "The problem with free verse, it seems, to me / is that it's just an excuse for ? to write prose and call it poetry.", I believe. < 1266121521 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free verse is just a way to write prose with the structure being a piece of the text < 1266121533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a joke, you see. < 1266121553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was RHYMING free verse! < 1266121554 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Can't find it :( < 1266121567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Grep logs for "call it poetry"? < 1266121574 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I'm trying. < 1266121585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a really boring holy war: Single or double quotes for main quotations? < 1266121609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I say double; single quotes are just too thin and light for that purpose. I prefer nesting alternately. True Britons will go for single quotes, though. < 1266121609 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266121646 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 'rakefile' a joke? < 1266121655 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the rubyists are making fun of engrish? < 1266121688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, rake = Ruby mAKE. < 1266121704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was Lakefile, perhaps you'd have a point. :P < 1266121741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Also: uh, I had better think of some typographical choice to put towards you. < 1266121743 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lakefire < 1266121750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can haiku be prose? Is this a useful concept? Is it just nonsense? < 1266121793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh yes! &c. for etc.: great thing, or greatest thing? < 1266121847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makefile, not wall < 1266121874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You know, I never said /not speaking/ was an option. :P < 1266121925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: he's an american. they seem to think remaining silent is some kind of _right_ < 1266121935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's Canadian, actually... < 1266121944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266121967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn i was reading his server location as his real one < 1266121991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ping him a lot. coppro, that is. < 1266122024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i thought lindbohm was only for ipv6, but i seem to be on it < 1266122051 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I can't found it, but I did find this: Of course, that isn't fair. Formula for rap: Take two notes, repeat 600 times while making racist and sexist remarks that rhyme. Formula for pop: Take two CHORDS, repeat 600 times while (sort of) SINGING sexist remarks that rhyme. < 1266122078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can'tfound it! < 1266122086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confound? Can'tfound? Laugh? Oh well. < 1266122093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Did you search for only lines by you? < 1266122096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you were on a different nick. < 1266122105 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, good point. < 1266122105 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh < 1266122117 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't found it in that I can't create it, like founding a city, y'know? :P < 1266122118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just search for "call it poetry". < 1266122127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAIT < 1266122131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just search for "call it ptry". < 1266122137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that valid, coppro? Is it? Is it?!?!?!?!/1 < 1266122150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't is it < 1266122160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's o-e < 1266122187 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Free verse is better than rhyming, \ For there's no need to worry of timing, \ The problem you see, \ With free verse, to me, \ Is that it's just an excuse for lazy people to write prose and call it poetry. < 1266122201 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joke was that the last line was not the right number of syllables :P < 1266122205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1266122237 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you were right, that was the thing to grep for >_> < 1266122272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to "hot bukkake norse fish mario sonic william howard taft". < 1266122278 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was using the term "blank verse" instead of "free verse" there, but was grepping for "free verse" >_< ) < 1266122302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, free verse is the term you used in the poem, so it should have found it. < 1266122314 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I used the term blank verse in the poem. < 1266122320 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just rewrote it as free verse here :P < 1266122326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, okay. < 1266122348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blank verse ≠ free verse, however. < 1266122365 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, 'snot, but they both happen to fit the theme. < 1266122372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blank verse has meter, though, so free verse is probably better to use. < 1266122384 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohyeah < 1266122391 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a young lady called Jenny \ Whose limericks weren't worth a penny \ They started out sound \ But somehow she found \ That whenever she tried to write any \ She always wrote one line too many. < 1266122402 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Ha < 1266122421 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That's so hilariously awkward to read. < 1266122429 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1266122436 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266122437 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'm expecting it to be a limerick. < 1266122438 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it isn't. < 1266122457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1266122472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was an old man \ From Peru, whose lim'ricks all \ Look'd like haiku. He < 1266122472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Said with a laugh "I \ Cut them in half, the pay is \ Much better for two." < 1266122514 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Outstanding. < 1266122527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There once was a [person] from [place] \ Whose [body part] was [special case]. \ When [event] would occur, \ It would cause [him or her] \ To violate [law of time/space]. < 1266122529 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, alise, I was watching those sporty things < 1266122531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A woman in liquor production \ Owns a still of exquisite construction. \ The alcohol boils \ Through magnetic coils. \ She says that it's "proof by induction." < 1266122547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A UNIX saleslady, Lenore, \ Enjoys work, but she likes the beach more. \ She found a good way \ To combine work and play: \ She sells C shells by the seashore. < 1266122548 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that site < 1266122555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, you know, every other limerick in the top 150. < 1266122559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://limerickdb.com/?top150) < 1266122600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There once was a small juicy orange, \ ...fuck. < 1266122613 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266122690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There once was an X from place B, \ That satisfied predicate P, \ He or she did thing A, \ In an adjective way, \ Resulting in circumstance C. < 1266122711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Anyway, answer all the questions I queued up for you. :P < 1266122723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : coppro: Oh yes! &c. for etc.: great thing, or greatest thing? < 1266122724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> Just search for "call it ptry". < 1266122724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> Is that valid, coppro? Is it? Is it?!?!?!?!/1 < 1266122724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> it isn't is it < 1266122724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> because it's o-e < 1266122730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only two, actually. :P < 1266122744 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Weird how well "adjective" can sound like an adjective ... < 1266122750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yeah. < 1266122767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He walked pronoun to the front door. < 1266122784 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not a fan of &c., and poëtry! < 1266122785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Yes," said Proper Noun, "I'll see you after dinner." < 1266122815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Indeed, &c. appears most strange until you realise that if you pick the right typeface and set it in italics, you see what looks like Etc. (but with a curly E). < 1266122826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks beautiful, but why? Because the ampersand used to be a ligature for "et". < 1266122870 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266122942 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do s/pronoun/adverb/ < 1266122986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD POETRY #4 < 1266122987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Premptive potry tries to avoid \ a bad course of action, to make null and void \ such an undesirable path it is, we see \ the future that follows it is misery. < 1266122991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS WAS < 1266122993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD POETRY < 1266122995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with alise < 1266122997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE TOPIC WAS < 1266123006 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MORE BAD POETRY" < 1266123007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bad poems purely for the sake of using two diathingies in two words juxtaposed. < 1266123020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GreaseMonkey: Oops. Of course, I meant adverb. < 1266123032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh freddled gruntbuggly? Thy micturations are to me \ As plurdled gabbleblotchis on a lurgid bee. < 1266123037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1266123043 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pronoun can work, as in "he walked me" or "he walked her" < 1266123063 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There's more where that came from < 1266123126 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I killed her < 1266123267 0 :rocketman!~blah@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1266123268 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1266123268 0 :rocketman!~blah@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266123335 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will have to complain to Wikipedia that there's a lethal weapon on their page < 1266123343 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are yoy kids talking about < 1266123349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you* < 1266123386 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION awnts to install fortress < 1266123430 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs MissPiggy's fortress < 1266123432 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;o ;o ;o < 1266123437 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266123467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: http://imgur.com/7jvO1.png Two fancy ampersands; I prefer the latter. < 1266123470 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, there's not much to actually install < 1266123485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They both look like "etc.", though. < 1266123486 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, I really like the latter < 1266123492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: He mens the programming language. < 1266123496 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1266123499 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a good font, &c. is not abhorrent < 1266123502 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Spam, spam egg spam and spam. < 1266123512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: URW Palladio L. < 1266123525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oblique, of course. < 1266123534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, no. < 1266123535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Italic. < 1266123539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always mix those two up. < 1266123574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who he < 1266123593 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's good to see that you've recovered < 1266123601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who recovered from what? < 1266123601 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: use google < 1266123608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what do you mean, who he? < 1266123608 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=And+what+do+you+mean%2C+who+he < 1266123621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and when did rocketman appear out of nowhere? < 1266123621 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: try google. < 1266123628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tset? < 1266123628 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: GIYF!! < 1266123642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x? < 1266123642 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: never heard of google? < 1266123647 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: remind me are you cis- or trans-girl? < 1266123647 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: try google. < 1266123649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: say "x?" < 1266123653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, never mind < 1266123656 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rocketman: what < 1266123661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rocketman is logged in as fax < 1266123662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1266123663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently a bot < 1266123663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a? < 1266123664 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: use google < 1266123664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a? < 1266123664 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: use google < 1266123664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a? < 1266123664 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/ < 1266123664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a? < 1266123664 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=a < 1266123665 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you recovered from the poetry < 1266123666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a? < 1266123666 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: use google < 1266123669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ah. < 1266123689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: Yeah, I really like the latter < 1266123690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : In a good font, &c. is not abhorrent < 1266123694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really like = not abhorrent! < 1266123706 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right! < 1266123748 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368162 - space < 1266123757 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If you bothered to read the logs, I thought I'd killed you < 1266123762 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy! :| < 1266123765 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1266123768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No logs, I was there, just missed the sentence. < 1266123771 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266123773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just typing out the ampersandy things. :P < 1266123777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats MissPiggy for joining an annoybot -----### < 1266123780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: turn off that bot, thanks. < 1266123782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :answer my question. :| < 1266123789 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's supposed to be HELPFUL < 1266123799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nice; turn it off. < 1266123820 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266123824 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone actually have ops here? < 1266123824 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: never heard of google? < 1266123825 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you just learn to love it < 1266123829 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266123839 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: :| < 1266123841 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know how to make it leave without making it leave all channels < 1266123842 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be useful in, say, #math < 1266123853 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::))) < 1266123853 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266123855 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the point < 1266123856 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're in #esoteric. You should be smart enough to work that out < 1266123876 0 :rocketman!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266123879 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1266123884 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro you are right :O < 1266123887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: fizzie is semi-active and has ops; lament has ops. < 1266123897 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neat < 1266123899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Aardappel still has ops or something. < 1266123911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they never use their op powers, unless someone just said that they never use them. < 1266123925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I quite like the anarchy here, we're alright at self-organising. < 1266123930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish alright didn't flag up as a spelling error. < 1266123955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright is all ways a spelling error < 1266123962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1266123984 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well im upset that you guys didn't like my bot < 1266123988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english, the language of consistent inconsistency < 1266124001 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am trying to follow the footsteps of wolfram|alpha < 1266124003 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in IRC form < 1266124028 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: people don't like bots that intrude on their usual conversations. is that a problem to understand? < 1266124036 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266124046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: WHAT < 1266124074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: WHOM < 1266124078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: WHAT < 1266124100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: WHOSOEVER < 1266124100 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an experiment < 1266124106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: WHAT < 1266124107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: WHAT < 1266124112 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should have made it oly reply occasionally < 1266124116 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then people wouldn't notice it was a bot < 1266124116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: WHAT < 1266124118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: WHAT < 1266124123 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266124129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: WHAT < 1266124139 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266124143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: WHAT < 1266124145 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Gregor already did that yesterday < 1266124150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it was Gregor < 1266124152 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh?? < 1266124153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OERJWHAT < 1266124156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OERJWHAT < 1266124157 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it a google helpful bot? < 1266124159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MISWHAT < 1266124198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just a markov bot, except it sometimes replied without being addressed < 1266124238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALISWAT -----### < 1266124239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: was it a except it then people wouldn't experiment < 1266124253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grammar fail? < 1266124314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also, hackego is already google helpful < 1266124323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything's been done before, you see < 1266124327 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266124331 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackego: ? < 1266124332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EVERYTHING < 1266124349 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google snugglebunnies < 1266124355 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amazon.com: Snuggle Bunnies (0697123000408): LC Falken, Lisa McCue: Books. ... The illustrations in the Snuggle Bunnies book are so cute and adorable! ... \ www.amazon.com > ... > [13]Children's Books > [14]Animals > [15]Rabbits - [16]Cached - [17]Similar < 1266124357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not the same :P < 1266124360 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine just accosts people < 1266124409 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I not cooking or eating right now? < 1266124411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'll accost your mother." < 1266124419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: kitchen is that way -> < 1266124421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: woman < 1266124460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is obviously some strange usage of the word "helpful" that I hadn't previously been aware of. < 1266124465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266124481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ZwnmJgC-g&feature=dir < 1266124486 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :squee < 1266124520 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hes straight. LAME < 1266124530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur is so predictable < 1266124545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266124553 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well look at him! < 1266124555 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hes adorable! < 1266124578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/user/charlieissocoollike < 1266124580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at him. < 1266124581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so adorable. < 1266124585 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'snot adorable :| < 1266124604 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes it's not somehow, someone in here < 1266124605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortress is so cool < 1266124613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes me wanna sex it. in a platonic way < 1266124640 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: its not someone in here. and he TOTALLY is adorable < 1266124644 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hes also british < 1266124648 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore doubly adorable < 1266124658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles < 1266124672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://projectfortress.sun.com/ < 1266124686 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sun.com still exists/ < 1266124689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1266124697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, sun.com just redirects to oracle.com < 1266124710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: glorious LaTeX-typeset two-dimensional mathematical notation syntax with ASCII equivalent, everything's redefinable more or less, implicit paralellism (!), transactions, decent type-system < 1266124721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :designed for high-performance numerical computing, like fortran < 1266124726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but fancy and CS too < 1266124752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god look at him < 1266124754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hes so adorable < 1266124757 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to go eat < 1266124759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i'm british too < 1266124761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266124761 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur you are wrong lol < 1266124768 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :liar < 1266124772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And nicely typeset. < 1266124778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I am that < 1266124787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266124806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is highly unusual... < 1266124826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the first time in memory, I've actually *needed* to stop studying. < 1266124829 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did somebody ask for ... < 1266124842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: NOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1266124843 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION taps his foot, waiting for his bot to log in. < 1266124843 0 :virtuLORD!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266124844 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when he had done this, and had anointed him king over israel two years continued in their hearts of the person of the covenant, that i may go up, but the virgins that follow him. Of the sons of elnaim, and jethma a moabite, eliel, and obed, and jasiel of masobia. < 1266124850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "no longer felt like", not "realise that further study won't help", but "absolutely must *stop*". < 1266124856 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1266124865 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee, I'm megalagged. < 1266124873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: ping < 1266124873 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: He exhorts to charity, humility and all thy soul. < 1266124878 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266124896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: Aye. < 1266124899 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: For with certain new and unheard of devices he hath spoken of by the river's brink. < 1266124901 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266124915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: MegaHAL? You certainly punctuate well, except from proper nouns. < 1266124915 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Except the lord had commanded him, he put in my hand: unless i bring an inheritance to his proper ability: and immediately he came to najoth, in ramatha. < 1266124929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: Sexual intercourse < 1266124931 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And the chaldeans that fight against the south, to the twelve tribes, serving night and day, for he is defiled shall eat the fruit of a wise man hateth not the stroke of their heresies. Others have explained these locusts, and of the lord said: thou shalt not pass over thee, till thou know not to death. And the king of egypt, and upon the altar. < 1266124946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THOU SHALT NOT PASS OVER THEE, TILL THOU KNOW NOT TO DEATH < 1266124961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: doom! < 1266124962 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: The statutes of amri, etc. . .The foregoing verse, to ver. 91, Was not healed by him and give him joy. < 1266124980 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got i cant watch this kid < 1266124982 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its depressing < 1266124986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: Transubstantiation. < 1266124987 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Son of man, what shall i make thy enemies for they are not to them that are round about it: and he was well favoured, and of idaias; thou shalt bury my body: which plainly implies transubstantiation. < 1266124988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thought virtuLORD tried to use the words you gave it < 1266124994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266124995 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur o_O he's not even attractive < 1266125000 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It /tries/ < 1266125002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hes ADORABLE < 1266125002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... I didn't know that word was actually in the Bible. < 1266125002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"thou shalt bury my body: which plainly implies transubstantiation." xD < 1266125011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly that's from another christian source < 1266125012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait this must mean that the bible does not _contain_ the word "doom" < 1266125016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which plainly implies transubstantiation" < 1266125021 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur you don't listen to reason!! < 1266125028 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can this be? < 1266125029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: aren't you christians meant to know things about the bible :P < 1266125030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could've sworn the entire doctrine was a Catholic invention. < 1266125036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COMING FROM A GIRL THATS QUITE AMUSING < 1266125036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: catholic < 1266125036 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sion. . .The catholic church; which shall flourish for ever. The unjust shall be no rejoicing nor shouting in the covenant of the lamb. And he broke and distributed to every one from his evil ways. < 1266125047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bible itself said it. Catholic church = awesome! < 1266125049 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol you did not < 1266125049 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq is a Christian? < 1266125055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MIND YOU, THERE'S A COMMA IN THERE < 1266125056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266125070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is Christian, no? < 1266125078 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT NOT A GERMAN STYLE COMMA < 1266125081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A rather unusual one, but si. < 1266125092 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq is indeed a christian < 1266125092 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: And elias said again to achis king of israel, for a remembrance of a christian. < 1266125102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats unusual about him is that he believes HE is jesus. < 1266125116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: *Hah*. < 1266125121 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD has a few things that aren't actually in the bible because the version I snagged from project Gutenberg had some commentary I was unwilling to filter. < 1266125122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though that was my high school nickname... < 1266125126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the beard and long hair do it) < 1266125133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well does christianity + singularity at the same time < 1266125134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That explains it. < 1266125135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty impressive < 1266125142 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise huh? < 1266125142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most religion most people can forge out of singularitarianism is pantheism < 1266125145 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus didnt have long hair, in all likelihood. < 1266125159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think pikhq said something about the singularity having the spiritual essence of jesus or something < 1266125166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: or the belief that god is an AI < 1266125166 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eww, wait, pikhq is religious? We'll have to deal with that at some poitn. < 1266125167 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Uh, not I. < 1266125168 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*point < 1266125173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it was like that but in less silly terms iirc < 1266125176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think the singularity is pretty awesome. < 1266125179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I know right! < 1266125188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Vaguely. < 1266125192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so you want to live forever and then die and go to heaven which is awesome? < 1266125193 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does god and AI have to do with anything < 1266125198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the 0 at the end of the recurring 9s < 1266125201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hahahah. < 1266125207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well since god IS an AI, everything! < 1266125209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: smite! < 1266125209 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Neither shalt thou smite it. < 1266125215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww :( < 1266125215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can jesus be singularity < 1266125215 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: We are all heathens! < 1266125217 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Who made the whole work of the heathens. < 1266125219 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so confusing guys < 1266125224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, that is the Lord's province. < 1266125230 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266125234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(smiting) < 1266125239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well dont worry your pretty little head < 1266125242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well just as the LORD, he is ... dammit < 1266125245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. < 1266125247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ask < 1266125261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats muphry -----### < 1266125266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: The popular image of Jesus has a beard, brown, long hair, and blue eyes. And is Caucasian. < 1266125277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, the popular image of Jesus is me. < 1266125278 0 :virtuchuck!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266125279 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aliens do indeed exist. They just know better than to visit a planet that chuck norris invented black. In fact he invented the entire spectrum of visible light. Except pink. Tom cruise invented pink. < 1266125286 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: POPULAR IMAGES ARE IRRELEVANT < 1266125291 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolol < 1266125294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JESUS WAS A JEW < 1266125295 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: NO < 1266125295 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Chuck norris uses a night light. Not because chuck norris destroyed the periodic table, because chuck norris 20 minutes to watch 60 minutes. < 1266125300 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OY GEVALT < 1266125303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: WELL AWARE. < 1266125304 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266125305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: NO < 1266125305 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Chuck norris played russian roulette with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs, pure colombian cocaine, and rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs, pure colombian cocaine, and rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a protein shake made from carnation instant breakfast, one dozen eggs, < 1266125306 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d rattlesnake venom. He injects it directly into his neck with a pillow under his gun. < 1266125315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: AND THAT'S YIDDISH. DIDN'T EXIST THEN. < 1266125327 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"He injects it directly into his neck with a pillow under his gun." < 1266125330 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O-Chul could kick Chuck Norris's ass < 1266125339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Totally. < 1266125340 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, I actually said a word like that here, o.O < 1266125345 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god < 1266125349 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was so funy < 1266125355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: WHAT, YOU THINK DONT KNOW THIS? WHAT A SCHMUCK < 1266125357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about the protein shake < 1266125364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm still laughing < 1266125364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help < 1266125376 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: YOUR GERMANIC LANGUAGE DOES NOT AMUSE ME. < 1266125390 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go make food now < 1266125392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O GAIN < 1266125396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1266125398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fine. < 1266125402 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you're an OOTS fan? < 1266125402 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo are you going to make a protein shake? < 1266125408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes. < 1266125413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats an oots < 1266125420 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, http://www.giantitp.com < 1266125420 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this about jesus and singularity please < 1266125422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Order of the Stick < 1266125428 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Object Oriented Type System < 1266125429 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266125435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D&D + stick figures = OOTS. < 1266125436 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Gian-Tit-P? < 1266125451 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :giant in the playground. < 1266125453 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you're not the first to make that joke. < 1266125464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gian-tit-p x): returns t if x is a gian tit, or nil otherwise. < 1266125467 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Well, Jesus is claimed by some to be awesome. The singulary is considered awesome by most who know of it. < 1266125468 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, maybe you made it before < 1266125476 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what singularity is awesome?? < 1266125481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was like a danger < 1266125483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'MUTHA < 1266125488 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DANGER DANGER < 1266125489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no :P < 1266125490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HIGH VOLTAGE < 1266125492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's freaking technology improving itself. < 1266125493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEN WE KISS < 1266125495 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's not to like? < 1266125496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEN WE TOUCH < 1266125502 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we don't do friendly AI right.. < 1266125503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an Unfriendly Singularity will be fatal to everything in existence < 1266125507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, like, the second coming or something. :P < 1266125511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Friendly Singularity is pretty much the best thing we could do < 1266125513 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tiling the universe with paper clips !!! < 1266125515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(technical terms) < 1266125520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that's what happens if it's Unfriendl. < 1266125522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Unfriendly < 1266125531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read this: http://www.singinst.org/upload/CFAI/ if you have the patience. < 1266125533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God knows I haven't. < 1266125534 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully microsoft doesnt invent the first superhuman AI < 1266125536 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise have you read the foobars? < 1266125540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An unfriendly singularity is apocalypse. A friendly singularity is utopia. < 1266125540 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prim intellect < 1266125542 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neutral == Unfriendly < 1266125550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet, but fiction is not a guite to reality. < 1266125553 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: neutral == switzerland < 1266125555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: But honestly, read this: http://www.singinst.org/upload/CFAI/ < 1266125555 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :onuapfndoafph < 1266125562 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore switzerland == unfriendly?! < 1266125569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise yeah I am about 1/5th through < 1266125572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? < 1266125572 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Chuck norris were cloned, then it would be possible for a chuck norris only recognizes the element of surprise. < 1266125574 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Prime Intellect had three-laws singularity. < 1266125577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what, that quickly? < 1266125581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah i guessed < 1266125585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 laws or weaker system < 1266125587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, plus two extra laws IIRC < 1266125589 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well I started quite a few months ago... < 1266125592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: right < 1266125596 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Oh, right. < 1266125597 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Appended onto the first < 1266125616 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One was "Do not interpret mind-states to understand them". What was the other? < 1266125616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0th law was hardcoded, and the inventor made his will supercede that of most people, IIRC. < 1266125620 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that still quick? < 1266125624 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to read too quickly < 1266125632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. 0th law and "Do not interpret mind-states". < 1266125655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was that to avoid mindreading or something? < 1266125658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0th law? I know what that means Asimov-wise, but I don't recall it in PI < 1266125669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was in it. < 1266125672 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1266125676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. < 1266125679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1266125680 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not allow it to modify peoples thoughts < 1266125680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should pull it up again < 1266125684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im going back to listening to a lecture < 1266125687 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entitled < 1266125694 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why its difficult for robots to learn word meanings < 1266125702 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur is that free online? < 1266125705 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266125709 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link please ? < 1266125731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5:35; bed soon. < 1266125733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.kuro5hin.org/prime-intellect/ < 1266125776 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ""Force Association: Altering the position, composition, or any other characteristic of a human being without its permission shall be a violation of the First Law of severity two." < 1266125855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not sure i can find it actually < 1266125856 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimme a second < 1266125863 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes. It was just additional details on the three laws. < 1266125863 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur okay never mind then < 1266125871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha i think i found it < 1266125881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait doesn't it metamorphosise the entire universe? < 1266125886 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And an attempted third appendium to the first law that failed < 1266125889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely that counts as changing the composition of a human being < 1266125896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: stop spoling, thanks < 1266125897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*spoiling < 1266125900 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1266125905 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise how come you already know :| < 1266125920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://deimos3.apple.com/WebObjects/Core.woa/Browse/arizona-public.1477002748.01832962525.2097811649?i=2125659579 < 1266125920 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: 3 Laws or weaker system. < 1266125925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the wikipedia summary, forgot most of it < 1266125926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: XD < 1266125926 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Aliens do indeed exist. They just know better than to visit a planet that chuck norris in scrabble, you win. Forever. < 1266125939 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, are you going to read Fine Structure? < 1266125953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That just changed the nature of matter. ;) < 1266125966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: maybe someday. < 1266125968 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266126005 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like yudkowski he writes well < 1266126021 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three Worlds Collide? < 1266126041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yudkowsky < 1266126047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: CFAI too probably < 1266126049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It also asked for human opinion on the matter. < 1266126086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure Yudkowsky would give up his own life for the singularity. < 1266126121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: good? good. < 1266126144 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur thanks hun :) < 1266126165 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266126228 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would give up his own life if it were returned to him via having the state of his brain stored beforehand < 1266126272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your brain is never resumed, then that is the same as dying. < 1266126277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is, then you did not die. < 1266126288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean give up your life as in die, no return. < 1266126298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardcore mode < 1266126302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: the problem that this guy is approaching is quite deep, in some sense < 1266126306 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verges on AI < 1266126309 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, really is AI < 1266126346 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't even sure that he'd give up his life to save human lives, tbh < 1266126376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its probably incredibly difficult to actually characterize lexical semantics at all < 1266126389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring what aspects seem to actually be non-lexical < 1266126539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I don't care about having a physical body or brain, just a mind. < 1266126585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, I'd consider an uploaded mind as good as what I have if it could emulate a universe just as precise, detailed and good as this one, and better if it could emulate something with more of those qualities; vastly better if it can do that to my own configuration. < 1266126602 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a mind?? < 1266126636 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are minds real? < 1266126643 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would love to live in the world of PI < 1266126655 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo sicko :P < 1266126662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: the brain is a physical computer that runs a single program, the mind. < 1266126671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind, consciousness; call it what you will. < 1266126677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i think the brain runs lots of little programs < 1266126682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mind is what is important. The brain is just squidgy. < 1266126684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: They're subprograms. < 1266126687 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like an unkernel. < 1266126688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get the point, though. < 1266126689 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I don't really beleive that stuff < 1266126690 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, any singularity without some of those social elements must mean that there are needly moral codes enforced < 1266126692 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE MIND IS A SOCIETY < 1266126696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: You don't believe you are conscious? < 1266126700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, are you not experiencing anything? < 1266126703 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1266126706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is an entirely scientific hypothesis. < 1266126714 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for Raven's party < 1266126717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you are wrong, because p-zombies do not exist and I find it incredibly likely you are intelligent < 1266126734 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I read about the zombies and I agree with that < 1266126745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are sentient, conscious, etc. < 1266126756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is undeniably some experience that we experience; what it "is" we do not know but it exists. < 1266126760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we have simulated neurons on computers. < 1266126763 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: there are no such things as zombies, nor could there be. < 1266126769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a mind whose brain is a silicon chip. < 1266126773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same mind, different brain. < 1266126780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The mind is important, the brain isn't. < 1266126821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't make sense if you took my 'program' and wrote it into a computer .. the computer would experience things o_o, so does taht mean everything is concious already < 1266126840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, YOU would experience things < 1266126846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no, it only means that SOME things are conscious < 1266126852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consciousness is the byproduct of thought < 1266126852 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you need the right program < 1266126864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a computer running your mind would be executing thought < 1266126872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus causing a we-don't-know-what-it-is experience called consciousness that is yours < 1266126876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be running you. < 1266126901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: maybe everything does emit the byproduct of consciousness, but with thoughts on the level of the identity function < 1266126909 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I am conscious because I experience things < 1266126910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we honestly have no idea what it is, after all, but we know that it exists < 1266126911 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266126932 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, stop arguing with MissPiggy. this is pointless < 1266126939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets talk about more awesome things < 1266126946 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like graph transduction < 1266126950 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266126953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy appears to be dismissing "you are conscious" by leaving conscious undefined and saying that everything that consciousness is isn't < 1266126954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks a lot augur < 1266126960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus leaving consciousness as a null concept < 1266126973 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I know what it means < 1266126987 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a null concept < 1266127077 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how would you react if a copy of you went into the singularity/computer system/whatever, then 5min later, you were destroyed? < 1266127090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reject the idea of a copy < 1266127100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say you made an atom-perfect copy of my brain. < 1266127115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The laws of physics tells us that atoms do not have innate identity; two identical atoms in different places are exactly the same. < 1266127126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, there is no way for my two brains to result in two different consciousnesses. < 1266127136 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the laws of physics tell us nothing of the sort. < 1266127140 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't follow alise < 1266127145 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur shut up you're arguing against me < 1266127149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: perhaps I mis-stated it < 1266127163 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur you can't just start agreeing like that < 1266127165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is 6am in the morning < 1266127169 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, then a simulation of those atoms < 1266127170 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best we can say is that if this is true, its irrelevant, since part of identity is location. < 1266127174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've heard this argument used convincingly elsewhere by people who know their shit about ai < 1266127180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: well, right < 1266127182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well those people are stupid. < 1266127192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so do you think consciousness is separated by being in a different place? < 1266127194 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise do you think of a two level approach one is just physical stuff and the other is souls and spirits and stuff which control the body?? < 1266127200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems a strange detail for a brain to care about, it's just a computer < 1266127203 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, go to sleep so you can wake up inn a timely fashion so you can get nice pictures taken < 1266127206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what < 1266127206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: fuck no, monism < 1266127210 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the normal view of conciousness, and it's the one I am against < 1266127216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: there is no soul there is no spirit world < 1266127218 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but then there's divergence as separate sensory data comes in < 1266127222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't beleive in that stuff < 1266127230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consciousness is just what happens when something thinks, consciousness IS sufficiently intelligent thought < 1266127231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other consciousness would also be you. infact, "you" would cease to mean anything without referring to which alise we meant < 1266127238 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they would not be the same consciousness < 1266127242 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think there's some infintesimal point in your brain that is the mind that experiences stuff < 1266127244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are, we are, literally experiencing our thought directly, because our consciousness is the method by which our thoughts happen; it is our thoughts < 1266127260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so you think that teleporting me to a different location would kill me and leave a copy in my place? < 1266127262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I strongly disagree < 1266127265 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ofcourse there isnt, but its irrelevant. < 1266127271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the brain cells I had ten years ago are dead now, I'm still me < 1266127276 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur how is it? That is what alise was saying a moment ago no? < 1266127284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our brains try very hard to make us experience continuous consciousness for whatever reason < 1266127286 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: doesnt matter that you disagree. its wrong. demonstrably so. < 1266127293 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused, I thought you guys were telling me I was wrong now you seem to be saying the same kind of thing < 1266127296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'm waiting for the demonstration or proof < 1266127309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: we are using different, more accurate terminology than you < 1266127320 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont have to destroy the original version of you to do it. now you've got two alises, experiencing entirely different things. < 1266127325 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well I would like to have better terms too < 1266127345 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but I dont' really read a lot of this stuff because it's mostly paranormal/spiritualism < 1266127365 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Singularity != Spiritualism < 1266127370 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless treated by idiots < 1266127371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't deny that we are conscious by saying that consciousness is a spiritual concept < 1266127376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monism and consciousness are compatible < 1266127378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not to say that theres a deep philosophical difference if the teleportation were talking about is quantum in nature. < 1266127395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, imagine a machine implanted in your brain < 1266127399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie entanglement sorts of stuff. < 1266127409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every now and then, it makes a perfect computer replica of one neuron in your brain, and replaces that neuron with the computer replica < 1266127418 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks to how some quacks claim that talk of "observation" proves something spiritual and significant < 1266127419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are you talking to me? < 1266127421 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or to MissPiggy? < 1266127422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266127425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :replacing one neuron in your brain doesn't make you not you any more, correct, augur? < 1266127428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise this is straight out of lesswrong -_- < 1266127433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes it is because it's true < 1266127436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well stop, theres no point in going down that road. i already agree with you on that point. < 1266127439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a good argument which is why it sticks in my mind < 1266127439 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266127444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were teling me it < 1266127445 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1266127447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so you believe that uploading without the cessation of consciousness is possible < 1266127454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse it is. < 1266127463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we have no disagreement over anything important. < 1266127465 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the teleportation thing that is at issue, since these are not identical. < 1266127490 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, where do you get more precicse terms regarding this from?? < 1266127496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if my computer mind is then uploaded to a computer, and they switch my computer mind off and run the same algorithm on another computer < 1266127503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: uh, you could try wikipedia? < 1266127512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: still me? if not, justify that. < 1266127517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same algorithm on the same data, same results < 1266127518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia is complete bullshit < 1266127522 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably not < 1266127531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: all of them would be you. they'd be different "alise"s form different periods. and they would ofcourse diverge. < 1266127533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well that's nice, you're an idiot < 1266127548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If not you, then it's close enough so as to make no practical difference. < 1266127552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no no, they shut down my computer brain, snapshot its state, and run the same algorithm on it on another computer < 1266127554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's transfer < 1266127556 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to invite people to his Relto < 1266127559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry but if you learned this stuff from wiki then no wonder you don't have any of your own thoughts on it < 1266127562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no way that can be _different_ < 1266127571 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266127571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well sure, but same thing < 1266127573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i didn't < 1266127584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i was suggesting it to you. and you can stop being an asshole, or I will stop directing messages to you. < 1266127591 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok theres no other alise to diff from, but thats irrelevant. < 1266127603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so you believe that if that copying happens, I will die? < 1266127608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266127609 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are the one calling me an idiot < 1266127611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure I could reductio ad absurdum this, but I won't bother < 1266127620 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's rich that you are saying I'm the one being an asshole < 1266127629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: blanketing all of wikipedia as complete bullshit is an idiotic statement, simple as < 1266127629 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe that the consciousness over there is not the consciousness over here, if there is such a thing as consciousness < 1266127635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats pretty irrelevant. < 1266127640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: then what of my continuous experience? < 1266127646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will that continue, what is your position on that? < 1266127651 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continuity is an illusion that your brain plays on itself < 1266127675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new-computer version will experience continuity < 1266127688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a sudden change in where it perceives itself to be < 1266127691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it really comes down to "What the hell is consciousness" at this point. And it appears to be bordering on semantic games. < 1266127701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I'm referring to my subjective *continuous* experience though < 1266127710 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consciousness is subjective experience or awareness or wakefulness or the executive control system of the mind.[1] It is an umbrella term that may refer to a variety of mental phenomena.[2] Although humans realize what everyday experiences are, consciousness refuses to be defined -- Useless < 1266127714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you said says nothing about my continuous experience, only its continuous experience - assuming them to be separate < 1266127725 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266127739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, all I care about is that my continuous conscious experience continues; and I believe that uploading, copying, teleportation and all the rest achieve this < 1266127754 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know it's not continuous though < 1266127761 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266127766 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, i think the problem is not with your continuous conscious experience < 1266127769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are gaps (you just don't normally see them) < 1266127775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: of course < 1266127779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the experience is continuous < 1266127785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i don't see them i don't experience them < 1266127786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the problem is that the word "you" has built into it an assumption about the nature of personhood that isnt correct < 1266127790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus my experience is continuous < 1266127792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: agreed < 1266127830 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, look I am not trying to derail this with being an asshole or anything but you said you have much more precise termiology than me and I just wanted to know why -- WIkipedia is not precise on these issues so I don't undersatnd why you would recommend it to me -- it's almost like a helpful google bot < 1266127831 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine we dont turn off your server, and instead take a snapshot and then boot it on another server < 1266127840 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that there are two instances of the Alise image running < 1266127852 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(obviously its all in smalltalk, because smalltalk is inherently suited for this sort of thing) < 1266127859 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which of them is you? < 1266127875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they certainly wont be experiencing the same things < 1266127900 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of unified consciousness in multiple bodies (ignoring the possibility of actually doing this with wifi or whatever) < 1266127913 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we wont magically get robotelepathy in this fashion < 1266127924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266127925 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but both are you, arguably. just not the same consciousness. < 1266127941 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you are not replying that means I am no longer an idiot? < 1266127942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the mean-time, I will continue life as ordinary. that does exactly what I want as far as my continuous experience goes until I die < 1266127944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre forks of the Alise mind < 1266127948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have a lot of years until then < 1266127949 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one perhaps a trunk < 1266127954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I was just reading something else < 1266127966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I was just dismissing the question because I'm tired < 1266127972 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what question? < 1266127974 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sure, except the physical you will be different than the roboyou's < 1266127976 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wasn't a question :| < 1266127979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: where to find terms < 1266127981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I really must sleep, if I want to continue my conscious experience I must not die < 1266127986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sleeping for too long is dangerous to my health < 1266127989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :health risks can lead to death < 1266127990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266127991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep < 1266127993 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you next week alise < 1266127995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266127998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sunday exists, sir < 1266127998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even if the physical you was copied at the moment of death, it would still be a different version of you < 1266128000 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one Alise died < 1266128003 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, it's saturday! < 1266128004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another lived < 1266128005 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1266128007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's sunday it's 6am < 1266128007 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise oh right, so you DISMISS ME by linking to wikipedia, then I say "this is bulshit' because it IS, and then you go off on how I am an idiot ??? < 1266128015 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's saturday here < 1266128017 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's the passport coming btw < 1266128020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ok, remind me not to talk to you when tired < 1266128022 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise for fucks sake.. you should have just told me you don't have a reference < 1266128028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no progress so far. photos on sunday prolly < 1266128035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you do realise that people don't think properly when tired? < 1266128041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, feel free to raise a shitstorm, I'll be sleeping < 1266128046 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah okay I'm sorry I got angry about it < 1266128052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for dismissing you < 1266128060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy families! now really, sleep -> < 1266128061 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I just felt a bit upset when you said I was an idiot because I was trying really hard not to be < 1266128072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry. just hard to do two convos at once while sleepy :P < 1266128076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I said -> that means i'm gone < 1266128077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay nn < 1266128080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is physically impossible to ping me! < 1266128170 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I could PROVE that nobody is conscious < 1266128205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no. all you'd prove is that your definition of consciousness is wrong. < 1266128238 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, what if I started with the right definition? < 1266128271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you started with the right definition, you would only prove that unconscious people are not conscious. < 1266128294 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are very sure :) < 1266128305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will have to produce a VERY good proof... < 1266128307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats because consciousness is whatever it is that people are doing :) < 1266128329 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a slug conscious? < 1266128330 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll have to prove that people just ARENT, to prove that people arent CONSCIOUS. < 1266128336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows. < 1266128354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think little insects are basically automatons < 1266128360 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just wiggle and so on < 1266128376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people are automatons too. theyre just big ones. < 1266128381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt mean they're not conscious :) < 1266128383 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah exactly < 1266128385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ? < 1266128388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just means you dont know what consciousness is! < 1266128389 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I thought it does < 1266128396 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do know what it is :( < 1266128402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously not :) < 1266128417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can sum up my views on this matter: i agree with dennett. < 1266128421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I try to prove that consciousness doesn't exist, that means that *I* am one of the only people in the world who doesn't have it? < 1266128433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you give me dennett to read? < 1266128442 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anything about him < 1266128476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266128477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me a second < 1266128646 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0wetQwH9nY < 1266128666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watch all three parts < 1266128670 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't I just say outrageous stuff like "wikipedia is bullshit" by the way? < 1266128684 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks augur < 1266128685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can < 1266128688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people can say stuff back < 1266128720 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but they get mad < 1266128725 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's no good < 1266128781 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tough shit :P < 1266128783 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people get mad < 1266128785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big deal. < 1266128795 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this were #antiwiki people would be happy. < 1266128795 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will try harder not to be so extravagant then < 1266128809 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a real chan :( < 1266128864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is 14 < 1266128867 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this were a real chan < 1266128871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'd be asking for nudes. < 1266128938 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :antiwiki is not a real chan :P < 1266128951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and? < 1266128961 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boooooopfadpfad < 1266128966 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a sore tummy < 1266128988 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're pregnant. < 1266129075 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I might be a skeptic but I just don't want to admit it < 1266129168 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said 'cogito ergo sum' is wrong!! < 1266129189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is < 1266129193 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1266129199 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thuoght it was true < 1266129206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'mutha < 1266129211 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266129418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :si! abbiamo un anima! ma è fatta di tanti piccoli robot! < 1266129419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266129437 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is fucking ridiculous augur!!!!!!!!! < 1266129450 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything he is saying is what I agree with and was saying earlier < 1266129451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1266129465 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266129482 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how come all you guys are disagreeing with me but actually think the same thing < 1266129522 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you dont know how to think about these things! < 1266129551 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::S how do you mean? < 1266129584 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you MEAN what do i mean! < 1266129603 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said I don't know how to think about these things, so what do I need to learn < 1266129684 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bites augur < 1266129688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oi < 1266129689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop that < 1266129916 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well? < 1266129993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know < 1266130000 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huff < 1266130002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think about thinking < 1266130007 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think about thinking about thinking < 1266130011 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not a metametathinker! < 1266130058 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266130067 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah < 1266130076 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me, I still think metameta- = meta- < 1266130082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but someone here said it's not < 1266130175 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decidedly not true. < 1266130185 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acn you hepl me understand why < 1266130188 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1266130200 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meta-thinking is arguably what philosophers of thought do, right? < 1266130209 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, philosophers of mind < 1266130215 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they think about thought, and what minds are like < 1266130217 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose < 1266130229 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt mean that they think about how to think about minds < 1266130244 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to step in with an analogy, but will let augur finish < 1266130245 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie they dont NECESSARILY say, "how should i approach this task" < 1266130264 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they might just conjecture about the nature of mind, without even asking how to approach it < 1266130276 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meta-meta-thinking is then thinking about how to think about how we think < 1266130293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similarly, meta-meta-meta-thinking is thinking about how to go about thinking about how to think about how we think < 1266130300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's silly :P < 1266130304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps! < 1266130306 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its true < 1266130308 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my turn! < 1266130317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thinking about thinking is not thinking about thinking about thinking. < 1266130318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously. < 1266130322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: GO GO GO < 1266130396 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In most programming language, manipulating types would probably be one level of meta-, because normally one manipulates objects in the course of programming. Hence, in a language with types you can manipulate, types are metaobjects. If types themselves have types (metatypes?), and those could be manipulated, they would be metametaobjects < 1266130409 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like multiple integration, except more conceptually < 1266130440 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metaprogramming = programming < 1266130458 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But once removed from the normal level < 1266130474 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, metathinking is thinking; it's just that it's about thinking < 1266130510 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(x) and \int F(x) dx are both functions, but they are not the same < 1266130514 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/F/f/ < 1266130543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metaprogramming is programming yes < 1266130557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its programming programs that make programs < 1266130559 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence its meta < 1266130571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meta-X is a kind of X that does X < 1266130574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what meta means < 1266130591 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266130843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bevin! < 1266130852 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bespin! < 1266130924 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. "Bevin" is not as Googlable as I had hoped < 1266131131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google bevin < 1266131140 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ernest Bevin (9 March 1881 14 April 1951) was a British Labour politician, best known for his time as Minister of Labour in the war-time coalition ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Bevin - [13]Cached - [14]Similar < 1266131243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i take it he was responsible for the "sweat" part of those blood, sweat and tears < 1266131374 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google Bevin Uru < 1266131375 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jump to [13]Bevin: bevin In the centre of the Plaza is a fountain. Turn about and climb up to the balcony overlooking the inland sea. ... \ [14]Preparing the Way - [15]Relto - [16]Bevin - [17]Ferry Terminal < 1266131469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has no idea what Sgeo is trying to find < 1266131657 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266131694 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bevin == Neighborhood < 1266131723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, perhaps not < 1266131747 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google Bevin Neighborhood < 1266131748 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aug 8, 2007 ... I am not sure I believe that, but it does suggest we should not call all neighborhoods "Bevin". I must admit, I had fallen into the Bevin/neighborhood ... \ forums.drcsite.org/viewtopic.php?t=2018 - [13]Cached < 1266131761 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bevin does not mean neighborhood." < 1266131798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what language? < 1266131843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D'ni < 1266131860 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, that might actually be a race < 1266131869 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure if there's a particular name for the language < 1266131876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so that google hit was actually relevant... < 1266131935 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/D'ni < 1266132198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is rish years old < 1266132312 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266132313 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266132576 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my fucking internet < 1266132582 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is so goddamned slpw right now < 1266132584 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know why :( < 1266132608 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be preparing to go to sleep right now < 1266132618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur_: microwave sloths < 1266132632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're crawling inside the wires < 1266132713 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :io0p-;[']u7ijk98uiolp;['] < 1266132714 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\9890-]\ < 1266132716 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"?90-=]iolp[;' < 1266132722 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops < 1266132727 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no its not microwave issues < 1266132732 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :connectivity is fine < 1266132945 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Horribly Tasteless Wikipedia humor: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Comparison_of_file_systems&oldid=220529437#Features < 1266132968 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266132992 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hahaha < 1266133014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266133018 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there it is < 1266133040 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHA < 1266133047 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tr/A-Z/a-z/ < 1266133149 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one needs a new section: "Performance", with a "No" under FAT and NTFS :P < 1266133163 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266133187 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1266133218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest99794 < 1266133235 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something is wrong when your VM performs faster than your native applications < 1266133243 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing the same stuff < 1266133249 0 :Guest99794!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur_ < 1266133330 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1266133435 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I put an image on imgur, will other people see it? < 1266133586 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes not < 1266133956 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who runs .exes on webservers? < 1266134277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor runs arbitrary binaries on his wiki. < 1266134382 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows binaries? < 1266134399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266134400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266134425 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although if Hackiki supports Mono, I guess his wiki could end up using .exes < 1266134441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now knows what it's like for someone to excessively IM him < 1266134448 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to be an excessive IMer < 1266134559 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: doit < 1266134574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wha? < 1266134593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fr en doit < 1266134595 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must < 1266134660 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, whayouwametodo, unlessyoumeanmust,inwhichcasewhatsthemustfor? < 1266134675 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: do it < 1266134680 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dowhat? < 1266134692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put Mono on Hackiki Prime < 1266134697 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahlol < 1266134705 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nanowneesleep < 1266134747 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't even sure how to go about doing such a thing < 1266134752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy < 1266134753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enlispelingetsworsanwors < 1266134758 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put the entire Mono framework on Hackiki < 1266134762 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put a .exe on it < 1266134764 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun! < 1266134826 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I shot Hackiki? < 1266135112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gnight < 1266136125 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266137445 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266138106 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266138237 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-122.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266139280 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266139305 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266140279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266140730 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266141707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: okay the ;'s are gone, my number one error is using , instead of it :D < 1266141738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the thing doesn't fail well yet) < 1266143075 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266143975 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266145704 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266147653 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266147768 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266147928 0 :tcsavage!~tomcsavag@host86-133-195-53.range86-133.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266149039 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266149437 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266149725 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: doing ski now, i wrote the thing in thue in the time it's taken me to differentiate between different sorts of inputs :D < 1266150109 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i just killed hundreds of children < 1266150206 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, how fucking fast do fruit flies reproduce? < 1266150276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been vacuuming their whole visible population about 3 times a day for like 3 days now, and the only noticeable difference really is that there are now more kids than adults < 1266150314 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume the vacuum cleaner kills them because i've never seen anyone get outta there < 1266150424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once left it next to the computer for hours just to see if someone comes out < 1266150469 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea why it would kill them though, they are very hard to kill with impact, and i assume that's the only thing the vacuum cleaner does to them < 1266150501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to kill by squashing ofc < 1266151296 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266151488 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266151942 0 :tcsavage_!~tomcsavag@host86-133-195-53.range86-133.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266152074 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266152088 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266152112 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266152121 0 :tcsavage!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266153251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise is 14 < 1266153252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if this were a real chan < 1266153252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : we'd be asking for nudes. < 1266153252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266153348 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm 14 < 1266153541 0 :tcsavage_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266153793 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm even older than that < 1266154253 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wareya.naken.net/?mode=comic < 1266154319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: i wish to kill you < 1266154332 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why' < 1266154340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wareya.naken.net/?mode=comic < 1266154345 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266154350 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266154353 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't make that < 1266154357 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just feel really sorry for the guy < 1266154394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure he isn't trolling you < 1266154400 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266154402 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've met him < 1266154421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I humbly suggest euthanasia. < 1266154428 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1266154441 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew him off the internet and saw him posting under that account < 1266154453 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's really autistic < 1266154455 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266154460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that much is obvious < 1266154467 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266154482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38's autistic too, but he's just crazy, not ... dunno how to put it, hopelessly naive? :P < 1266154495 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1266154499 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1266154517 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my school considered testing me for aspergers but decided it was easier to say I had an emotional disorder < 1266154523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I'm often surprised by the navety of other people... < 1266154543 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1266154546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266154551 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that naivety was something that like < 1266154553 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone had < 1266154553 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1266154557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1266154564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I see it a lot in other people < 1266154582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: lol I've experienced my own bullshit with aspergers (as you probably know; god knows everyone in this channel does) < 1266154584 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I'm naive to new ideas that aren't directly logic related < 1266154593 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266154604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this hell totally is haha :P < 1266154605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I mean nave as in real-world situations < 1266154612 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266154626 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I'm dead for most shit in real life < 1266154659 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266154666 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How should I start coding an interpreter for Boat? < 1266154720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's imperative, so naturally I'd use Haskell < 1266154721 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a lot of time lately (vacation) and I'd hte to waste it playing half-life etc. < 1266154729 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266154735 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I know is C, GML and Python < 1266154737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't wasted if you enjoyed it < 1266154738 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and GML is out the window < 1266154743 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266154743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, learn haskell < 1266154747 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm like, never sad < 1266154758 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since my childhood was so sad haha < 1266154763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably you experience fun playing half-life otherwise you wouldn't want to do it < 1266154773 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I also get fun out of programming < 1266154774 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266154787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like anyone will use the interp though :P < 1266154792 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266154800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway don't do it in C, Python isn't a good language but at least you don't have to manage memory. < 1266154809 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love managing memory < 1266154823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you love busywork, not real programming work < 1266154826 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and python is only bad in the syntax and how it handles low level objects < 1266154834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's bad all the way through < 1266154835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266154835 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I meant the real basic stuff < 1266154841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you have multiple bracketing statements, write a parser of course < 1266154844 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@memory management < 1266154850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have infix operations, how do they associate? < 1266154852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they? < 1266154858 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?\ < 1266154872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n==n equality test -- returns the xnor of two values (if you need booblean, use casting) < 1266154872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n!=n inequality test -- returns the xnand of two values < 1266154872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n|n "or" -- note: || in C is its | with a boolean restriction < 1266154872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n&n "and" -- note: && in C is its & with a boolean restriction < 1266154872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n!|n "nor" < 1266154873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n!&n "nand" < 1266154876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does this mean: < 1266154885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x|y!=z!&r==n&p < 1266154891 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :left to right < 1266154902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's easy then < 1266154906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how to write a parser right? < 1266154911 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope! :D < 1266154924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok well the obvious option is to use a library but that's boring innit < 1266154932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you don't really care about helpful syntax errors < 1266154943 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the more lenient a language is the better < 1266154952 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why I can't write python < 1266154965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is lenient... < 1266154970 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the syntax < 1266154973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1266154994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Past a certain point, bondage becomes freedom, paradoxically enough; Haskell, for instance, is one of the most expressive languages I've used. < 1266155001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Python doesn't really hit that. < 1266155006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, I'll show you how I'd structure this parser in C. < 1266155028 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like purely structural languages versus ones that only have goto < 1266155065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1266155208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: actually, since you have complex expressions *and* infix operators, a parser library is probably your best bet < 1266155224 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266155248 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I could be hardcore and process all the nesting manually like I planned to < 1266155254 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :becaues 1) That would teach me more < 1266155266 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) I wouldn't need to deal with a library < 1266155273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yacc isn't a library < 1266155280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you write a .y file and it spits out a c file < 1266155290 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266155292 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 3) I wouldn't need to deal with a preprocessor < 1266155295 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hey < 1266155295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :70s technology, the people who invented C used it y'know < 1266155314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: re recursive descent - yeah except I'm good at shit like this and now how to write parsers, < 1266155334 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't < 1266155334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when I realised you had left-associative infix operators with complex left-hand-side expressions with many types of nesting, plus 2d flow, < 1266155342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I started crying and closed the window. < 1266155347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: also, you CANNOT parse this language < 1266155350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has two dimensional flow < 1266155354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can < 1266155364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have to store N where N is a very large number parses for every single block < 1266155372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be near-impossible to coordinate < 1266155372 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually hang on < 1266155382 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs to parse actively < 1266155386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same reason the only way you can parse befunge is loading it into a 2d char array < 1266155393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: right. you're out of your league. < 1266155400 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1266155408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a syntax for such trivial semantics :P < 1266155432 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a Chip-8 -> brainfuck converter < 1266155443 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I could at least get SOMEWHERE with this < 1266155464 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if I wrote it in a language that was really good at dealing with fucked up structure < 1266155472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck I wash my hands of this < 1266155484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, haskell is really good for multiple angles of the same data and handling complex structures like this simply < 1266155485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just sayin' < 1266155494 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have functional languages < 1266155497 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hate* < 1266155509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. so you're an idiot, then < 1266155514 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both of my parents programmed in C and PHP < 1266155529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHP in your genes? well that would explain it < 1266155530 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I wrote shell scripts when I was 3 < 1266155536 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate PHP too, though < 1266155540 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is ironic < 1266155542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what functional languages have you used < 1266155565 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang, haskell, AGTs < 1266155570 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SGTS* < 1266155571 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;sdlfjasd < 1266155574 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AGTS* < 1266155576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how seriously did you use haskell? < 1266155579 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266155585 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1266155615 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread that. I didn't use it that eriously, but I jumped in the shallow end and tried to mess with it for a couple weeks < 1266155634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, obviously you hate them because they're different to what you're so used to. < 1266155638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a very healthy attitude to take, though. < 1266155643 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266155647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should always try to push your programming language boundaries. < 1266155666 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you used GML? Its object manipulation is worse than C++ < 1266155675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I may consider several paradigms worthwhile and not be sure which, but I know for sure that whichever has the nicest properties is certainly not imperative. < 1266155682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imperative couldn't be more dead to me. < 1266155684 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't really get accustomed to a functional language after mastering that < 1266155711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much more peaceful after you do ;) < 1266155716 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1266155736 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should try to do it in FreeBASIC < 1266155746 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to be an asshole to people who hate basic < 1266155746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for me though because i constantly see everything that's shit about my computer < 1266155767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong architecture. wrong language. wrong structure of OS. wrong interface. wrong software. blah blah blah < 1266155777 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate x86 < 1266155799 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate how windows XP ties everything to the OS < 1266155812 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tec. < 1266155813 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1266155820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you hate x86 but for presumably all the wrong reasons < 1266155826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would vastly prefer a graph-reduction architecture < 1266155830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the Reduceron < 1266155831 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's WAY TOO MUCH < 1266155846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you know that simplicity is a virtue, but simplicity does not mean low-level, of course. < 1266155850 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, I work with mips all the time, and even it's over the top < 1266155856 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1266155863 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I was able to deal with chip-8 < 1266155865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Reduceron is a high-level symbolic computer (like computer algebra systems)... on an fpga < 1266155871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no imperative instructions in sight < 1266155938 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://devernay.free.fr/hacks/chip8/C8TECH10.HTM#3.1 < 1266155948 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only imperitive stuff there deals with the 8 or so registers < 1266155967 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 < 1266156007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SYS is imperative. CLR is. RET, JP, CALL. You could make an argument for SE/SNE/SE being denotational. LD, ADD. OR and AND too, for they mutate the registers. I won't go on; this is imperative in its entirety. < 1266156047 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I'm sorry < 1266156063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functional *means* functional. :P < 1266156067 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming that pardagrim inclusion wasn't tenary < 1266156069 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266156085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure what you said makes sense? < 1266156089 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1266156102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i disagree < 1266156125 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming that something being one of a pardagrim wasn't a JUSDT yes, no, or unrelated thing. < 1266156128 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST* < 1266156151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I saw not a single instruction that could be described as declarative apart from - maybe - SE/SNE/SE; even then they read mutable state. < 1266156168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Functional" as a paradigm means little; only purely functional has the required properties that make it worthwhile. < 1266156195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reasoning about programs, safety, segregating non-functional code into boxes, large optimisation potential, ... < 1266156206 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wat < 1266156277 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry but that made no sense to me < 1266156278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if imperative code is all you know I'm not surprised you don't understand... it's pretty much the lowest common denominator as far as advanced topics like that go - and I mean to cause no offence, I am referring to the entire world that it comprises < 1266156317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't really explain most of them without several pages... by that point, it'd probably be easier for you to actually learn a functional language than to follow the tangled web of words. < 1266156325 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266156349 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that the way that I'm spergin' makes me thing of everything as a test and set < 1266156382 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I was thinking that way before I know very much about computers < 1266156385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything is a graph rewriting. < 1266156395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even imperative code can be modelled this way, and efficiently, too. < 1266156427 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can boil anything down to one operator following a 3D trail < 1266156433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly transcends such petty blimps in history as how our computers work; it's pretty much pure mathematics, and mathematics has to be the oldest non-physical discipline there is. < 1266156434 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can build that back up into anything else < 1266156452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the power, safety, purity and optimisation you get when you layer a good type system on top... < 1266156468 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :european pre-calculus math is retarded < 1266156471 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you people saying two things can be equal in their computational ability even though they are different?!? < 1266156480 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my very non-humble opinion < 1266156485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pre-calculus is retarded everywhere < 1266156495 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :post algebra, pre calculus < 1266156500 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is fucking stupid < 1266156508 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, calculus isn't even european < 1266156519 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm fully justified in saying that all european math is dipshit < 1266156528 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"let's take a sneak peek at what you'll do with this stuff once you have any idea what it means" < 1266156537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Chaitlin count? < 1266156543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erdos? < 1266156549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why didn't I think of Erdos first? Disturbing.) < 1266156558 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current version of ski takes over a minute to compile < 1266156577 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are they post-1850? < 1266156588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god, you don't know who Paul Erdos is. < 1266156596 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I suck at european history past rome < 1266156611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you just became the most idiotic person I ever met, to claim that European mathematics is bullshit one sentence then express ignorance at who Paul Erdos is in the next. < 1266156619 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, but < 1266156620 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I suck at european history past rome < 1266156623 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1266156638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then saying anything about European mathematics makes you a fool. < 1266156653 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also 14 in one of the most facist state education systems in america < 1266156661 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so shun me < 1266156689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is one thing not to know, it is another entirely to make a blanket statement about something that you do not know. < 1266156696 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1266156714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have the self-awareness to know that you are in a crappy educational system (pretty much all of them), you have the intellect, and thus the intellectual responsibility, not to do things like that. < 1266156716 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been trained to call everything post-1850 in the western hemisphere american < 1266156750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could only get away with "it's the SYSTEM! blame the SYSTEM!" if you weren't clearly intelligent enough to realise what bullshit such things are. < 1266156770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Georg Cantor? < 1266156778 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that I'm uneducated in history < 1266156779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1870. Maybe he's not sufficiently Unamerican for you. < 1266156783 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266156785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*un-Ameircan < 1266156786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*American < 1266156787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1266156793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(un-American, that is) < 1266156815 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :russia and germany < 1266156823 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1266156831 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should be saying western instead of european < 1266156845 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again I suck at making good english so fuck that < 1266156868 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i totally be make an fun english < 1266156874 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266156882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, fact is, if you know that you do not know much about the history of European mathematics, because you know that you do not know about European history post-Roman times, then it is intellectually dishonest to make more than trivial statements about European mathematics; a blanket statement is simply ridiculous. < 1266156901 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But America is all about blanket systems! < 1266156905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need to know anything to make that train of deduction except what you self-admittedly know; that you are ignorant of European history. < 1266156907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you're both wrong < 1266156915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p and not p! < 1266156920 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :us q! < 1266156923 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is* < 1266156934 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the famous P ?= NP problem < 1266156960 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p&!(p) < 1266156970 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=0 < 1266156982 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OF COURSE IT'S UNRELATED < 1266157007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care how cliche it is, because it's relevant: < 1266157010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Never let your schooling interfere with your education." --probably not Mark Twain < 1266157035 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I said until I realized that I didn't reach out enough out side of school to learn things < 1266157049 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you weren't being so pretensious I would probably be listening to you, though < 1266157057 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I suck at spelling < 1266157057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're on a computer connected to the internet; it presumably has a web browser. So... what are you waiting for? < 1266157066 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT HALF-LIFE < 1266157072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the American anti-intellectual attitude really has sunk into your brain < 1266157076 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266157078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big words are pretentious elitism < 1266157079 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pro-intellectual < 1266157084 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h < 1266157086 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :insults are < 1266157094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not insulting you. < 1266157101 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reads like it < 1266157111 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just sayin' < 1266157115 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266157119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She's an asshole in general: don't read into it too much < 1266157128 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured such. < 1266157145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I am, but in this case I was not being an asshole to you, only certain parts or actions of you. < 1266157162 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but parts make up the whole < 1266157173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is criticising someone's mathematical proof an insult? < 1266157178 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1266157201 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're criticising the parts of me that I've never really cared about being different < 1266157204 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be! < 1266157205 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so of course I feel offended < 1266157210 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1266157256 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, my full-blown proofs with columns and everything aren't ever argued with because I go into detail showing how I tried proving each part wrong to no avail < 1266157290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof by contradiction, damn you some kinda mathematical genius. < 1266157293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't argue with one of them. < 1266157302 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1266157303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as if they can be flawed or anything < 1266157322 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can divide by zero < 1266157326 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes < 1266157371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266157389 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y=x/0; 0y=x; x=0; y=0/0; < 1266157392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you just said about proofs does sound like you've been doing some serious precalculus < 1266157402 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do some serious algebra < 1266157403 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and that too < 1266157418 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, that should unmelt it < 1266157429 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elementary algebra, presumably < 1266157435 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, high school algebra < 1266157439 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266157442 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's elementary algebra. < 1266157446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_, < 1266157446 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1266157447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*>_< < 1266157457 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, I'm actually IN high schoo < 1266157458 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1266157467 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so saying that that's elementary from my perspective is like < 1266157473 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apples=oranges-2 < 1266157490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone talk to em so I don't have to. < 1266157491 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not calling it elementary, that's just what it's called :-P < 1266157496 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266157502 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To contrast with abstract algebra < 1266157505 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, "elementary" algebra < 1266157527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh elementary algebra < 1266157529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you trying to express the notion that elementary algebra is difficult? < 1266157529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_algebra -- Wikipedia agrees with me so I must be right < 1266157533 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has nothing to do with algebra < 1266157536 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1266157544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Sure it does < 1266157544 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just tree rewriting < 1266157546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why "yeah, 'elementary' algebra"? < 1266157555 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:23 < Wareya> See, I'm actually IN high schoo < 1266157556 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:24 < Wareya> so saying that that's elementary from my perspective is like < 1266157556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: oh? < 1266157556 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:24 < Wareya> apples=oranges-2 < 1266157567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: No, that isn't an answer; it doesn't make any sense. < 1266157573 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're funny < 1266157575 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes sense to me < 1266157581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How is calling it elementary strange from your perspective?" is the question. < 1266157581 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait of course it does < 1266157587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are saying things but they don't seem to express any sort of coherent idea. < 1266157588 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1266157593 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elementary school < 1266157598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's just the most basic concepts, restricted to an easy-to-understand set < 1266157601 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grade school < 1266157614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: So, what, do you not know what the word "elementary" means? < 1266157618 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266157620 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basic < 1266157629 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it means more than that < 1266157634 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it pretty much means basic < 1266157640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is basic algebra. < 1266157643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how is that strange at all? < 1266157644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: so like group axioms and shit? < 1266157655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't get more basic than that in algebra < 1266157658 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No, like equations and variables and shit :-P < 1266157671 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :becuase americans think of elementary as grade school < 1266157672 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :period < 1266157677 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in massachusetts < 1266157693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variables are logic, not algebra, imo; algebra is about having operations and things, and rules for how the operations should work < 1266157707 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they are logic, but they're used in algebra < 1266157709 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebra is the manipulation of equations that contain variables < 1266157711 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equations is, maybe, closer to algebra < 1266157720 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional variables I mean < 1266157739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would highly expect that Massachusetts has one of the better educational systems in America. < 1266157740 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The set of things that you do in elementary algebra are a subset of the things you do in abstract algebra < 1266157742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well dunno really, to me they just don't seem to have any sort of real connection < 1266157749 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise, I'm on the new york border < 1266157755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, it's probably the most liberal state; and, well, all dem universities. < 1266157767 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) Taxachusetts < 1266157782 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) The Berkshires suck at middle and high school < 1266157790 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3) I'm 14 < 1266157797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EFFORTS TO tamp down antitax sentiment in Massachusetts got an unexpected boost last week: the small-government advocates at the National Tax Foundation in Washington, D.C., issued a report showing that the state's tax burden has dropped a few notches this year. The epithet "Taxachusetts" has been difficult to shake, but the foundation report ranks the state 23d out of 50 for the bite state and local taxes take out of a resident's paycheck. That's just abou < 1266157797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t the middle by anyone's calculation. < 1266157801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that took like five seconds to google up < 1266157810 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsfield < 1266157813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't criticise left-wing policy by prefixing words with tax- < 1266157822 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :left wing policy is great < 1266157831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you're 14, but I would presume some of the intellectualismamism from the unis would spill out < 1266157834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not about equations, it's about systems with objects and functions that map objects to other objects < 1266157836 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm so poor that I'm obliged to laugh at taxes < 1266157851 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you try to characterize what these systems look like, given some constraints on the operations < 1266157852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they're balanced out by relevant social services then it's irrelevant < 1266157852 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AGAIN < 1266157855 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittsfield < 1266157889 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you do in high school is you have a vague understanding of the real line, and you have one set of rules you need to learn to apply < 1266157911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that does make it sound like they have a connection < 1266157968 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yeah okay maybe, but you only train the part that doesn't require any sort of thinking or understanding. < 1266158008 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, arguably you can do abstract algebra without any understanding as well < 1266158010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could replace it by a class where you memorize axioms for different algebraic systems, although it might be harder to keep students from understanding what they're doing < 1266158026 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway < 1266158036 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In practice you can't because there are too many rules and it's not as easy to recognize when to use which one < 1266158047 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the upper ends of my school are trying to get rid of all he autistic kids by failing them < 1266158048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"although it might be harder to keep students from understanding what they're doing" < 1266158053 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUESS WHO THAT INCLUDES < 1266158060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're being too snappy about education lately. stop it or i'll be forced to quote you < 1266158072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: you're not autistic. < 1266158078 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They think I am < 1266158092 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, I don't group aspergers with autism < 1266158117 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to put it a way, one is a software issue, the other is a hardware issue < 1266158139 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1266158151 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the worst explanation of the difference i have ever heard < 1266158156 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1266158157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1266158159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if you actually have asperger's it's very much a hardware issue < 1266158167 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1266158167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, asperger's isn't real in like 90% of cases < 1266158172 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people who self-diagnose asperger's are just shy/socially inept/whatever < 1266158181 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aspergers is often psychological < 1266158182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most people who are DIAGNOSED Asperger's are just that. < 1266158195 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't know about that < 1266158199 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266158210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I know of at least one case... (me) < 1266158212 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't even heard of asperger's until it erupted on the internet a few years back and everybody was like "OMG that's me" < 1266158221 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266158224 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the internet < 1266158235 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: < 1266158235 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One case does not a "most people" make < 1266158237 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:36 < alise> Well, I know of at least one case... (me) < 1266158237 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:36 < Deewiant> I hadn't even heard of asperger's until it erupted on the internet a few years back and everybody was like "OMG that's me" < 1266158240 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epic timing < 1266158249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just said I wasn't Asperger's, you fool. < 1266158257 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: all education before university is bullshit and should be completely removed < 1266158261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Most people who self-diagnose asperger's are just shy/socially inept/whatever < 1266158261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Most people who are DIAGNOSED Asperger's are just that. < 1266158261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, I don't know about that < 1266158263 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266158263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, I know of at least one case... (me) < 1266158266 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:37 < oklopol> alise: all education before university is bullshit and should be completely removed < 1266158267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has absolutely no use to anyone < 1266158274 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilarious < 1266158278 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would agree if it weren't for grade school < 1266158285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: what, exactly, is hilarious? :p < 1266158291 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Most people can't be dropped to university without any knowledge of the pre-university stuff < 1266158291 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! < 1266158299 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that better? < 1266158305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: intelligent people educate themselves < 1266158314 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what alise said < 1266158314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, so do dumb people, they just need constant poking in some direction to do it. < 1266158318 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not necessarily < 1266158323 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost always < 1266158326 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many grow into intelligence < 1266158334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Name one? < 1266158353 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't enjoy school, for the most part, until I was maybe 12 years old < 1266158355 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 90% of the seniors at my school who aren't there for the lunch < 1266158359 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still learned the stuff, of course < 1266158363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That is completely unrelated to education. < 1266158366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or intelligence. < 1266158373 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:38 < alise> Deewiant: Name one? < 1266158374 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :09:38 < Wareya> alise: 90% of the seniors at my school who aren't there for the lunch < 1266158374 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it's related to education < 1266158380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name someone who grew into intelligence, not someone who grew into liking education. < 1266158381 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway there are just numbers and lists, so i'm not sure a separator between list elements makes much sense < 1266158392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :State education, at that, which isn't really much education. Maybe it's better in Finland. < 1266158406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah i think you should drop commas from function args too < 1266158408 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :american middle and high schools < 1266158409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I mean, without the years of education before that point, I'd've been lagging behind others < 1266158409 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUCK < 1266158410 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASS < 1266158424 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you'd call me an idiot if I were here with 10 years less education than I've got < 1266158428 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Probably.) < 1266158433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You can't know whether you would have self-directed your education or not. < 1266158439 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly < 1266158443 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would probably look far more like I have aspergers if it weren't for elementary school < 1266158449 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And thus it's safer to force people into education < 1266158454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably you had enough intelligence so that if you did not find intellectual stimulation you would become bored. < 1266158460 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be all over mechanics and programming, like I am now, but nothing else < 1266158463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, I was questioning whether you wouldn't. < 1266158470 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boredom does not mean you'll do something useful < 1266158472 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See procastination < 1266158477 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :procrastination* < 1266158479 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY < 1266158484 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :procrastination isn't out of boredom < 1266158494 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's out of lack of intrest in what you're procrastinating < 1266158494 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it was < 1266158497 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266158500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug < 1266158504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm just speshul < 1266158513 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYWAY < 1266158520 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm inclined to think you are: you're smarter than most people my age that I know < 1266158524 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back to what started this (I think) < 1266158530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mommmy says I'm thus! < 1266158531 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat < 1266158535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, with THREE Ms! < 1266158540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm extra-mmm! < 1266158545 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW THE HELL would I write an interpreter for this shit? < 1266158553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Apart from when you act like an idiot, but I guess a lot of people my age do that too, so shrug) < 1266158563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm hoping to grow out of that :P < 1266158575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People do. < 1266158590 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be right back < 1266158595 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much soda withotu enough food < 1266158596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm actually kinda scared that i'll hit my upper bound on intelligence at like 20 < 1266158601 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember what grade school is < 1266158610 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Most people do, too. :-P < 1266158615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be horrible to go through 60 more years with first equal, then declining intelligence < 1266158618 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After that it's just accumulating knowledge < 1266158621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ehh I'd say people change a lot from 20 to 25 < 1266158628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whatever < 1266158632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes but there's a finite amount of relevant knowledge I could accumulate too < 1266158635 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly before your 30s anyway < 1266158670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess my best hope is a singularity before my brain starts irreversibly decaying, then it'd just be a temporary blip of stasis :P < 1266158709 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decay doesn't matter if the singularity works out nicely < 1266158717 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I wouldn't bet on a singularity, anyway :-P < 1266158728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may believe many things about what a singularity can do, reversing entropy isn't one < 1266158745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't believe the brain is sufficiently modularised to allow me to be imported into a shiny new cognitive facility without the decay < 1266158747 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a singularity is the opposite of entropy < 1266158751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're probably mixed < 1266158756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: not that kind of singularity. < 1266158758 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's an effective one instead of a physical one < 1266158760 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1266158768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technological singularity < 1266158773 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, of course < 1266158782 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i'm not sure continuing this conversation is very fruitful, you know perfectly well i'll never agree with your perfectly sensible statements. < 1266158802 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean argument. < 1266158810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't bet on a singularity, I hope for it < 1266158814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: If you say so :-) < 1266158821 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I didn't claim you do < 1266158832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet that a singularity is possible, and I maybe-bet that a singularity is quite feasible. < 1266158847 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :singularities are possible if time travel is < 1266158855 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean reverse time travel < 1266158868 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But time travel is unlikely enough that that's not a very fruitful angle < 1266158870 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be incluned to say the converse too, but I don't know. < 1266158924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I'd like to think that a singularity could reverse any brain damage but I'm not so certain < 1266158933 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1266158942 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise, what if a brain and its consciousness were perfectly duplicated? < 1266158946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess it's in my interest to try and cause a singularity before that's even a consideration < 1266158950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: oh god not this, we argued about this last night < 1266158953 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i liked this better when it was doomsday < 1266158958 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall < 1266158964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: define this < 1266158970 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh right < 1266158974 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ways To Avoid Death < 1266158987 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a radical point of view on that stuff < 1266158995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: thou art confusing me < 1266159001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: tell me it so that i may tell you how unradical it is. < 1266159002 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so confusing < 1266159008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: define define this < 1266159033 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : anyway I'd like to think that a singularity could reverse any brain damage but I'm not so certain < 1266159041 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i guess my best hope is a singularity before my brain starts irreversibly decaying, then it'd just be a temporary blip of stasis :P < 1266159059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I don't put the probability of a lovely magical singularity all that high < 1266159074 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 corinthians 15 < 1266159103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likening singularitarianism to religion, yawn < 1266159110 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immort < 1266159110 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[g] < 1266159123 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exact same sentiment right there < 1266159146 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any analog "computer" may be conscious, consciousnesses are detatched from their "computer", and they follow our fourth dimensinoal time on a string or quantum level and manipulare elementary particles to cause free will. This of course makes time travel on an above-physical level completely possible, which of course makes those eleven dimensions necesary, ruining relativity without string theory. < 1266159170 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell me that's not radical in any way, < 1266159188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"y follow our fourth dimensinoal time on a string or quantum level " < 1266159192 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not sure it is meaningful < 1266159195 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let alone radical < 1266159199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain lunged my head away so that I could not read further once I read that < 1266159207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an allergic reaction to quantum mysticism < 1266159217 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HATE QUANTUM MYSTICISM < 1266159219 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAIWEFHQPWE"ZSD(_VFU@C_FXs < 1266159224 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, why < 1266159231 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why what < 1266159235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: singularity theory isn't about "oh the world is going to be great" though it's just applied self-improving ai < 1266159241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how we can direct its goals < 1266159244 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1266159248 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ski works < 1266159261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not "this will make GREAT THINGS" it's "we can make this really powerful thing, and here's a way to make it aim for great things" < 1266159280 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically to help you, one alise, transform your natural body into a spiritual one < 1266159282 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Would a singularity be able to code Boat interpreter in 80 characters or less? :D < 1266159290 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code a* < 1266159294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: no, I absolutely disbelieve in the existence of the spiritual < 1266159299 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt <<< also god i find this pretty < 1266159305 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well that's a useful position < 1266159311 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also notice cadaar and cadar, had to cheat a bit :< < 1266159311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that minds can be run on computers, but that's *because* i'm a monist < 1266159335 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that digital and analog computation can only be converted in one direction < 1266159339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only reason singularitarianism seems so "mystic" is because of the basic fact that we cannot know what something more intelligent than us will deem correct, even if we have told it what it should aim for < 1266159351 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266159352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it in the end decides how to achieve that, and we cannot be smarter than ourselves < 1266159354 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure we can < 1266159360 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've been doing it for centuries < 1266159379 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see: evolution < 1266159391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I come back after going brb, I expect you to be behaving as a transhuman would be < 1266159406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will then repeat. let's see if we can't cause a hard takeoff by sheer force of imagination. < 1266159412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? okay then. brb -> < 1266159488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO HOW ABOUT THAT THERE SKI INTERP HUH? < 1266159507 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-172-6-94.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266159516 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW ABOUT THAT HOW DO I WRITE AN INTERPRETER FOR A 2D LANGUAGE WITH FUCKED UP FLOW CONTROL HUH? < 1266159527 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T KNOW, GO READ A BOOK < 1266159530 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat < 1266159533 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT I SUCK < 1266159542 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEN DO SOMETHING EASIER LIKE FUCKING A GIRL < 1266159551 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT THAT'S HARDER < 1266159558 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the girls are at their parents' houses :< < 1266159587 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously < 1266159601 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I insane for trying to make something like this < 1266159609 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya ttly lol ^__________^ < 1266159619 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266159620 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it significantly more fucked up than Funge-98? < 1266159629 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266159650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266159674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: what's hard about it? < 1266159683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean which command? < 1266159690 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expression handling < 1266159706 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expression handling? what do you mean < 1266159710 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have nesting and anarchistic flow control < 1266159714 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266159715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you have nesting < 1266159720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i'll actually read that < 1266159722 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266159774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well nesting + 2d is pure genius < 1266159781 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inorite:D < 1266159789 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i was surprised < 1266159795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but umm < 1266159797 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, are you serious? < 1266159800 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266159811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you clearly can't parse, so it should be pretty easy < 1266159829 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just raped C, gave it a memory strip, and put it in a character array < 1266159830 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ that wasn't serious, i just hate parsing because i parsed last night < 1266159849 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but you did 2d + nesting, and it became genius < 1266159859 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but C made the nesting < 1266159870 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the flow control can seriously be anywhere < 1266159879 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266159890 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like < 1266159899 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : v=`n`(? < < 1266159899 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?(`n`!=3){`n`=`n`+1;v}^ < 1266159899 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ 1 }< < 1266159899 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >); < 1266159907 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's outdated, but it shows what I mean < 1266159923 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you took 2d, and you took nesting, and you put them together, i think that's a new idea, so i claim it's genius. < 1266159926 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266159938 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but? < 1266159942 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh mn < 1266159943 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1266159949 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll need to go over and over expressions < 1266159956 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning i'll need to safe their coordinates < 1266159960 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'll need to nest THAT < 1266159961 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUUUUUUCK < 1266159964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure it actually amounts to anything that interesting given that you have so much stuff you'll probably just end up writing pretty normal 1d programs < 1266159985 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I should strip it down? < 1266159994 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least I don't have functions) < 1266160004 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i think so < 1266160005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1266160042 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I realized how much bloat I have here just now < 1266160051 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more than I think I originally wanted < 1266160070 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266160087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you can still have a nice amount of stuff in there, i'd just remove some of the technical details about segment sizes < 1266160097 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1266160104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you know i'd just have bignums :P < 1266160113 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what bignums are :D < 1266160123 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :access memory at address q with n bits in size -- you could see 32[30] which would access the long integer at addresses 27, 28, 29, and 30. Yeah, it's big endian, but that might change as this goes. I guess I could get away call this as a special case for an array of bits. < 1266160134 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's the best part! < 1266160136 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's too complicated for my small brain < 1266160136 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266160139 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266160141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so < 1266160152 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's how people hate dealing with endianness < 1266160161 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bits < 1266160166 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, i see < 1266160169 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I went "Hey let's do both" < 1266160179 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's a thing, then it's fine. < 1266160181 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n^^(n,n)"rolling" exponent - 4^^(2,3) would be 4^2^2^2 < 1266160183 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266160184 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DELETE < 1266160225 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q{n} access memory at address q with n bits in size -- you could see 32[30] which would access the long integer at addresses 27, 28, 29, and 30. Yeah, it's big endian, but that might change as this goes. I guess I could get away call this as a special case for an array of bits. < 1266160229 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q{n}[m] array with segments the size of n with the "origin" data value being at address q - with big endian, again. < 1266160232 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q{n}[m][b] multidimensional array < 1266160234 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q{n}=j set value at memory address q of size n to j < 1266160237 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q{n}[m]=j set value at spot m in an array to j < 1266160239 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q{n}[y] use value of size n at address q as an address for a value size y < 1266160242 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this excessive? < 1266160271 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye strings < 1266160275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266160285 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realized < 1266160301 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I don't need the built in variables at all < 1266160332 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so someone gimme a nice ski program < 1266160375 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%(0[1]<5){0[1]=0[1]+1}; < 1266160381 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is valid Boat as of right now < 1266160392 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, do I need loops? < 1266160398 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seeing as it's 2D and I have a goto and all < 1266160399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely < 1266160401 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to use nesting < 1266160403 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for stuff < 1266160405 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1266160413 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use if tests < 1266160419 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and move out of the line of execution < 1266160423 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forcing you to use 2D < 1266160425 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or goto < 1266160461 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to try to write something in ski jus to not be an asshole < 1266160465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: bignum = arbitrary size integer < 1266160471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stores in memory when it overflows an int < 1266160473 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's lazy! < 1266160475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like python's ints < 1266160478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't < 1266160481 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hsuh < 1266160485 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hush* < 1266160497 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not lazy, integers are always finite < 1266160518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy is when you have an infinite thing, not when you have an infinitely extendable thing < 1266160523 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, that ruins the fun of fucking with people < 1266160543 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multi-endian + bits < 1266160545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you randomly stepped on genius by istake i'm just gonna tarpit the idea. < 1266160550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, sure; as i said, if it's a thing, it's okay, i'd just make it really high level because that's the furthest away from funges. < 1266160569 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1266160578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you know i'd want like recursion and stuff < 1266160595 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, maybe still bytes for storage < 1266160595 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that < 1266160601 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't have functions, just gotos < 1266160606 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can deal with bytes < 1266160615 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a stack + nesting + 2d mmmmmmmmmm < 1266160623 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266160627 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(address*16)[16] < 1266160631 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BYTES < 1266160645 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bytes \o/ < 1266160673 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, working with bits is better for people who want to ultra-optimize < 1266160692 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and working with bytes isn't that much of a pain in the ass < 1266160720 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :working with high level stuff is not a pain in the ass if you use a modern language < 1266160727 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like C < 1266160731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266160736 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah totally < 1266160736 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love C < 1266160740 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for file i/o < 1266160744 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I suck at it < 1266160746 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266160749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're killing me < 1266160759 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266160763 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so < 1266160774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather Wareya than asiekierka < 1266160784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[suddenly, out of nowhere, the latter appears] < 1266160786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but not both. < 1266160791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well file io is you say file @ this address, then you read/write strings back and forth < 1266160804 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that simple < 1266160807 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can *not understand* how to do that, your language is pretty much as bad as it can be < 1266160811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it's not that simple < 1266160812 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C. < 1266160821 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to deal with something dealing with pointers in a way that isn't normal < 1266160822 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it damn fucking hell is that simple in any modern language < 1266160822 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266160831 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266160835 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like python < 1266160836 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266160843 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python is ungodly at strings < 1266160848 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sucks at evverything else < 1266160850 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-v < 1266160865 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah python doesn't have tail recursion < 1266160884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but other than that... < 1266160904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, actually i try my best to hate python, because i'd like it if i sometimes used another langauge < 1266160906 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to rewrite my last example < 1266160908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*language < 1266160915 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266160941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i went through io is damn hard -> io is fucking easy -> io is damn hard in my language now but these super type features will make it the easiest possible except with safety... just a few more equations and it'll do it... < 1266160948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one is bliss. < 1266160959 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266160960 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :muuu < 1266161042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just talk about type theory and suddenly MissPiggy appears < 1266161103 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266161103 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: SO DID YOU HEAR ABOUT SKI < 1266161111 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266161116 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what hapened < 1266161126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did it in clue < 1266161133 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nice < 1266161145 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow cool!!! show me ? < 1266161148 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt < 1266161158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orgasmic < 1266161172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few functions are total cheats < 1266161175 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed all of the Boat examples :D < 1266161185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: CLUE WAS HERE FIRST! < 1266161191 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::C < 1266161196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are they cheats < 1266161207 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackish < 1266161211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so does this thing compile < 1266161217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1266161218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so show the output, I wanna see how efficient it compiles to < 1266161231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no way to see the output yet < 1266161234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dump the ast < 1266161238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll add that, but it's nontrivial < 1266161242 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266161252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it's trivial, but it will still take some time < 1266161256 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god !!!!!!!! < 1266161259 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see there's no ast, there's just python code. < 1266161267 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the hell does this work < 1266161272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i compiled to lambdas for funsies < 1266161275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266161285 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's just brute force < 1266161298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: print the python code then < 1266161304 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, well okay maybe < 1266161309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just replace return (lambda bitchass: ...) with return "(lambda bitchass: ...)" or w/e :P < 1266161326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i guess that'd work < 1266161352 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "glue" function that does all the work is just a bit... not optimally pretty :P < 1266161359 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266161365 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's just one line i'll need to fix tho < 1266161368 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or change < 1266161379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll make it always also return some sorta AST, maybe that's simple < 1266161409 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but first, someone give me some ski, i've just tested trivial stuff < 1266161432 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: or did you mean how does the ski interp work? < 1266161445 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i think the code is pretty easy to read < 1266161446 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1266161456 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pitiful that I have 9 updates in a row on the recent changes list < 1266161463 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i can read it < 1266161467 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just CDR coding < 1266161475 0 :Gregor!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266161505 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how long does that file take to compile? < 1266161515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah most of ski is just list manipulation, the only hard part i guess was to get "ski type?" to work, and to get "ski apply" to actually compile, had to add cadaar and cadar < 1266161523 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a few minutes < 1266161524 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266161529 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1266161541 0 :base3!~rk@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266161556 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anything abotu ski < 1266161558 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :educate me < 1266161570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait 9 seconds now < 1266161572 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about* < 1266161617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: S = \x y z.x z (y z) < 1266161624 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: K = \x y.x < 1266161638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The above is Turing complete. < 1266161647 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? < 1266161675 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any lambda calculus expression can be compiled into usage of S and K. < 1266161676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: he only knows C, Python and some game maker scripting language thing < 1266161680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and says he hates functional languages < 1266161684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh dear. < 1266161685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sooo < 1266161689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll probably take a few hours to explain SKI < 1266161693 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: if you have (((s a) b) c) somewhere, you'll change it to ((a c) (b c)), if you have ((k a) b) somewhere, you change it to just a < 1266161698 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise functional languages are hiary < 1266161701 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hairy < 1266161702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that also < 1266161705 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Let's start with lambda. < 1266161709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's not < 1266161712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski is just term rewriting < 1266161722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus < 1266161723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((S a) b) c -> (a c) (b c) < 1266161726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266161728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(K a) b -> a < 1266161729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda calculus is kind of hard to start with to explain SK < 1266161733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can use this to model functions < 1266161740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let I = ((S K) K) < 1266161754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I x) -> (((S K) K) x) < 1266161767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> (K x) (K x) < 1266161785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is (K a) b < 1266161790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a = x, b = (K x) < 1266161793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we rewrite it to x < 1266161803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, from two rewrite rules, we can express a function that takes an argument and returns it < 1266161815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is you have to understand how to translate all those parens into nested structures in your head, not sure C teaches that < 1266161816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can express any turing-computable function with only combinations of these S and K terms < 1266161829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, it is a turing-complete programming language. < 1266161834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Wareya can probably say he has no idea what's going on, himself, if that's the case < 1266161841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION winces and braces for the "it can't do IO so C is more powerful" < 1266161853 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do IO in C < 1266161859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err... yes, yes you can < 1266161867 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm is even more tc than C < 1266161907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(8.3 seconds without any debug info) < 1266161911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LC is lame for theoretical purity if you have SK < 1266161911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll add asts now < 1266161927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: just replace "lambda x: y" with Lambda("x", y) etc :P < 1266161935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even ('lam','x',y) knowing you < 1266161941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, hey. Don't think you saw. < 1266161951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I wrote a SK evaluator in C. < 1266161958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Using my lambda macro. < 1266161960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw. < 1266161967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably while reading the logs last week. < 1266161968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. Log reading. < 1266161969 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266161978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise once compiled underload to c < 1266161983 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND < 1266161992 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, let me try to explain, < 1266162001 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: do you understand how (1 (2 3)) is a tree? < 1266162011 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOPE < 1266162012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> S a b c = a c (b c); < 1266162013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> K a b = a; < 1266162013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> S K K a; < 1266162013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1266162013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> S a K b; < 1266162013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a b (K b) < 1266162015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure is awesome < 1266162018 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, imagine you have a forest with lots of different kinds of birds in it < 1266162022 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266162027 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOO STUPID OF A METAPHOR < 1266162029 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRY AGAIN < 1266162033 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy <3 < 1266162040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rich coming from "ASPERGER'S IS sOFtWARE aUTISM IS HARDWARE" man < 1266162049 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1266162056 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya that was pretty rude < 1266162060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> S I I a; < 1266162061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a a < 1266162062 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I APOLOGIZE < 1266162070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbolic evaluation is a wonderful thing < 1266162077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but you kind of lost it < 1266162078 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM PISSY, GIDDY, AND HYPER < 1266162085 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really care what you are < 1266162088 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1266162098 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about no caps lock?\ < 1266162101 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi MissPiggy < 1266162120 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :peace < 1266162323 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you know I spent the whole night dreaming about the link between complexn numbers and consciousness -_- < 1266162330 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266162333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266162353 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another one of those mornings when you wake up with a headache < 1266162353 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying that complex numbers aren't computable? < 1266162369 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least not digitally) < 1266162369 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya -- do you want to try again? < 1266162373 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266162386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you think a digital computer cannot be conscious? < 1266162396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only an analogue one? < 1266162399 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not believe that digital computers can be conscious < 1266162402 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only analog ones < 1266162410 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only the core needs to be consious < 1266162418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: okay listen < 1266162421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what a neuron is? < 1266162421 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, an analog computer could run a digital one < 1266162423 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266162425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :billions of them in our brain right < 1266162428 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266162429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know we can emulate them on digital computers right? < 1266162431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and do so < 1266162436 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emulate < 1266162443 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they emulate analog sound effects < 1266162444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. emulate is the same thing as run natively, just slower < 1266162445 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya so there is a bird called the idiot bird, because whatever you say to it -- it just says it back. we can represent it as Ix = x. for example if II = I. And theres another bird called the mocking bird which repeats everything it hears twice Mx = xx. < 1266162451 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on digital computers < 1266162454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also neurons are primarily digital... < 1266162463 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet they have an analog section < 1266162467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :furthermore, you have not provided any evidence for your claim < 1266162472 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the part I think causes consciousness < 1266162474 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I haven't < 1266162478 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why I said it was radical < 1266162481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you do so, I have no obligation to consider it < 1266162482 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :piggy: okayy reading now < 1266162489 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-y < 1266162492 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya so if I call 'Idiot' to the Mocking bird it calles out idiot idiot and then idiot bird just says idiot, so that is MI = II = I, do you understand? < 1266162506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: just go for S and K < 1266162508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M isn't important < 1266162508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I suspect this is going to end up in the Chinese room argument. < 1266162565 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266162567 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand < 1266162611 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266162624 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :butts < 1266162627 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Like I said, my excuse is that analog computers that run the consciousness hook up to digital ones to do logical work < 1266162644 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is very, very asinine < 1266162650 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thnx < 1266162654 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not you :D < 1266162655 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i too < 1266162655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster: wat < 1266162657 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266162660 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am trolling < 1266162661 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get my models of consciousness from like < 1266162663 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pulp novels < 1266162663 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i doing a good job? < 1266162667 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1266162670 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266162672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am so confused in the few seconds since you joined < 1266162675 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go rtoll 4chan by being a shitty troll like I do < 1266162679 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :troll* < 1266162679 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please tell me how i can do a better job Wareya < 1266162682 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry guys this is my fault < 1266162684 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah that must take some doing < 1266162685 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266162686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think *you* *trolled* 4chan? < 1266162690 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266162695 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just some people on it < 1266162700 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that thought I was a bad troll < 1266162702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they were trolling you < 1266162711 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cockblocking trolls is a sacred art! < 1266162725 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what are you nerds up to < 1266162732 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something awesome < 1266162745 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1266162754 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:51 < MissPiggy> sorry guys this is my fault < 1266162756 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:51 -!- MissPiggy [~none@unaffiliated/fax] has left #esoteric [] < 1266162758 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sad < 1266162784 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiot < 1266162791 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiot idiot < 1266162792 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i AM an idiot < 1266162797 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiot < 1266162800 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiot idiot < 1266162800 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that made my day, base3 < 1266162802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: don't feed Libster and base3, they followed misspiggy here < 1266162809 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i am hungry < 1266162813 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1266162823 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please feed me < 1266162828 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fedds libster < 1266162833 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks bud < 1266162835 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'mma fedd you < 1266162840 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1266162841 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i knew this channel was full of fedds < 1266162847 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kidding. < 1266162859 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise, please tell me how to slim down Boat < 1266162861 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266162863 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watch out Libster they might track you down and arrest you < 1266162872 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no!!!! < 1266162891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: see /msg. < 1266162905 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no problem Libster just mask your ip with /quit < 1266162918 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i invented a new eosteric programming language < 1266162918 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type /quit IP < 1266162922 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the syntax < 1266162925 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162926 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162926 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162926 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162926 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162927 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162928 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162930 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162932 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162934 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162936 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162938 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162940 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162942 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162944 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162946 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SPAM < 1266162950 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty funny, right? < 1266162960 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol montey pythan < 1266162964 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love that british humouur < 1266162970 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck i hate british humor < 1266162971 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey pthing < 1266162974 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i hate british < 1266162974 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! < 1266162977 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about you? < 1266162983 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im fine < 1266162984 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me how to slim down Boat < 1266162987 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1266162992 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat less < 1266162995 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exercise more < 1266163033 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question < 1266163047 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does 4^(4^4) end up being the same as 4^4^4^4 ever < 1266163052 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any change of the parenthesis < 1266163120 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: if you take (4^4) or a higher tower as a power ever < 1266163136 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will clearly end up bigger than 4^(4^4) < 1266163141 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I'm thinkin of doing something like < 1266163147 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you still have to add in another 4 somewhere < 1266163151 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4^^4=4^4^4^4 < 1266163153 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the only possibility is < 1266163160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congratulations, you invented tetration < 1266163162 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 4^^^4=4^^4^^4^^4=UGH < 1266163165 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :power tower < 1266163170 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great because I don't know what that is < 1266163171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth wants a word with you. < 1266163171 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4^(4^4) = (((4^4)^4)^4) < 1266163173 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about knith arrows? < 1266163176 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with u < 1266163177 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knuth arrows < 1266163179 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you link me to an article? < 1266163181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: < 1266163184 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See wikipedia < 1266163185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth%27s_up-arrow_notation < 1266163204 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SEE THINGS I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO USE < 1266163208 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster!!! < 1266163209 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore I say I'll learn it later < 1266163210 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266163212 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1266163214 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266163220 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am trolling this channel < 1266163240 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Super Cave Story, Bro < 1266163254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster: wanna see my new ski interp? < 1266163259 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p124451566.txt < 1266163263 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does tha tmean < 1266163266 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i am not a nerd < 1266163274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiles in just 8.5 seconds < 1266163280 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool what are you talking about < 1266163283 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 4^(4^4) does not equal ((4^4)^4)^4, because it clearly equals (((4^4)^4)^4)^4 < 1266163284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski is this combinatory logic thingie < 1266163305 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1266163308 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have three functions and you apply them to each other < 1266163321 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just use it to test my languages because it's trivial to implement < 1266163345 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based on the theory that three idiots working together can accomplish anything < 1266163352 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is so great, Libster and base3 on #eso < 1266163356 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like christmas < 1266163362 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266163376 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we came here to troll < 1266163385 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266163393 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah alament is here < 1266163407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes < 1266163408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah he's our friendly op. < 1266163415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that he ever does any opping. and he isn't really friendly < 1266163443 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't really his thing anymore, but he enjoys listening to us with his ears < 1266163446 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: do i know you? < 1266163457 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base3: no, but i often watch you on #math < 1266163471 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266163483 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi lament < 1266163498 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but me and Libster are best buds < 1266163501 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: if you're interesting in antisocial or potentially unlawful activities tangentially related to math, you should join #~math < 1266163513 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally < 1266163543 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're sort of like a outlaw math gang < 1266163548 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i used to be there, i just tend to part all channels when vista decides it can't open any more windows unless i part a few channels. < 1266163549 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266163550 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Super Cave Story, Bro < 1266163553 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1266163564 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always thought you were a bit cooler than the other mathholes < 1266163570 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266163609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are you guys going to have sex, in which case just get (a) a room and (b) it over with, or else just, you know, I don't know, I didn't consider this case when deciding to be an asshole < 1266163628 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, picture? < 1266163630 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266163642 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol alise < 1266163645 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, actually, given the context, that sounds kind of strange. You know what I mean < 1266163664 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i have sex with you alise < 1266163685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: not now, I'm busy whoring out my body to *other* people < 1266163700 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only regulars can have sex with alise < 1266163709 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i have sex with you oklopol < 1266163715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :troll cocks are too big < 1266163720 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266163736 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could do math together < 1266163741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266163743 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.249.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266163859 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1266163865 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should I do to slim down boat < 1266163866 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat < 1266163868 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this boat < 1266163877 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :throw your passengers overboard < 1266163893 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while maintainging the retarded way of dealing with memory, 2Dness, and expression nesting < 1266164005 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could limit myself to if tests and increment/decrementation < 1266164036 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use linux it will make your code faster < 1266164043 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a no brainer < 1266164158 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not about speed, this is about ease of implementing it < 1266164162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even more definitely linux, huh < 1266164173 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux has all the right stuff < 1266164196 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but linux IS faster < 1266164199 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266164202 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were serious? < 1266164206 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just trolling < 1266164212 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man you guys are stupid < 1266164217 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no shit you're trolling < 1266164222 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes I'm serious < 1266164243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to what, windows? linux has a better task switcher iirc < 1266164248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably the syscalls are better < 1266164250 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :task switcher? < 1266164253 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes < 1266164254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, theoretically, you could say it's faster < 1266164264 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you could say that if you are stupid < 1266164264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: if you don't know what a task switcher is... ... i have nothing to say < 1266164279 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALT+TAB < 1266164280 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHA < 1266164301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well fuck, Wareya's complete retardation has made him unable to stop feeding the trolls thus turning this channel into a shithole < 1266164302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, Wareya < 1266164309 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah thanks < 1266164311 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i appreciate it < 1266164322 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but these trolls are cool < 1266164336 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266165203 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64.vg/src/cb37635de8f76f2b2587fbace50d0427/raw < 1266165227 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or: http://64.vg/uoa < 1266165543 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, now the channel's dead. < 1266165597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1266165628 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the trolling finally ended. < 1266165703 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266165708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: you fucking moron < 1266165713 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just shut up < 1266165722 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ < 1266165722 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(_) __| (_) ___ | |_ (_) __| (_) ___ | |_ < 1266165722 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |/ _` | |/ _ \| __| | |/ _` | |/ _ \| __| < 1266165722 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| | (_| | | (_) | |_ | | (_| | | (_) | |_ < 1266165722 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|_|\__,_|_|\___/ \__| |_|\__,_|_|\___/ \__| < 1266165729 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l@l < 1266165836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :馬鹿ね。…… < 1266165847 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net < 1266165851 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+q *!*@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com < 1266165866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1266165872 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny, ChanServ automagically goes hostmasky when you give it a nickname. < 1266165886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1266165898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey they weren't so bad < 1266165906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel kind of awkward with them still sitting, brooding, silent < 1266165909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess it's nice to aknowledge someone's trolling < 1266165913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what if they stay here for years and someone unbans them by mistake < 1266165918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a million lines come through in 0 seconds < 1266165918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ack < 1266165924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's scary < 1266165935 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was mostly going by the 16 consecutive lines of "SPAM". < 1266165939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd start chanting "kick them" but there isn't enough of an angry mob < 1266165942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266165947 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266165950 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric languages < 1266165951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh what the hell. KICK THEM! KICK THEM! :| < 1266165951 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're cool < 1266165953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i do o < 1266165954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1266165954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1266165954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1266165954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1266165954 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much abotu them < 1266165958 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :educate me < 1266165960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i never get banned < 1266165961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you're allowed, because you're cool < 1266165963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1266165971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and say awesome stuff in the non-oing interims < 1266165980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus you don't copy-paste "SPAM" you handcraft every o < 1266165982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every single o < 1266165984 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's even truer i guess < 1266165985 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266165989 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoteric languages are cool < 1266165992 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know much abotu them < 1266165994 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :educate me < 1266166010 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I seriously make the same typo twice? < 1266166014 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pathetic < 1266166040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd tell you about good ones but they're all functional < 1266166061 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know much about functional languages either < 1266166062 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266166068 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I assume Freenode's guidelines mean I should have been more of a "catalyst" somehow there, but I suck at chemistry.) < 1266166133 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Functional programming is simple, but unlike what you're used to. < 1266166142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one's gone < 1266166146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but base3 is holding the fort < 1266166148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :storing energy < 1266166149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a pokemon < 1266166151 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand the basic concept < 1266166156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functional programming deals with true functions. That is, they map from input values to an output value. < 1266166159 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's it. < 1266166163 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266166175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think blatant intentional spam and trolling is meant to be dealt with BLOOD < 1266166181 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's at the level of the actual language that I really hate dealing with < 1266166197 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially purely fucntional ones < 1266166201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because you're not used to dealing with the abstractions is all. < 1266166217 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1266166235 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, but that'd be *increasing the channel temperature*! And I don't want to get all sweaty here. < 1266166237 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learn you some Haskell. < 1266166243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(delicious, delicious Haskell) < 1266166250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said he started then gave up < 1266166257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Lame. < 1266166262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1266166312 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used it for five ffreaking weeks < 1266166312 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266166315 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-f < 1266166320 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just couldn't get anything done with it < 1266166320 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266166326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Weak. < 1266166341 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome story < 1266166351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keep on doing it. < 1266166388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: You did not learn Haskell. < 1266166390 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I do address[size] < 1266166392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You learned Haskell's syntax, yes. < 1266166394 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or size[address] < 1266166399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You learned how it relates to imperative languages. < 1266166406 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1266166408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that you don't seem to grok lambda, doesn't seem like you learned much. < 1266166408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you never made the transition from programming in an imperative language then converting it to Haskell, < 1266166410 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I learned was the syntax < 1266166413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to someone who programs and thinks directly in Haskell. < 1266166420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: then how did you compile a thing? < 1266166426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You had to have some understanding of the semantics, however wrong and weak. < 1266166427 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't :D < 1266166439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The syntax was pretty easy... < 1266166442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you were foolish to program in a language < 1266166460 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266166462 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I was < 1266166483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any language. < 1266166489 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266166493 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolp < 1266166529 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266166545 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with boat, should I do address[size] or size[address]? < 1266166562 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either one causes problems - either with casting or with arrays < 1266166581 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do those mean? < 1266166589 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addressing of memory < 1266166590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly [] should be commutative. < 1266166618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: make it swap when going left or right < 1266166622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you always write it one way in the source < 1266166623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266166637 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are four directions < 1266166641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie foo[bar] or ]bar[foo < 1266166648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's always foo[bar] in the source if you go at it left or right < 1266166656 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you for doing ]bar[ by the way < 1266166661 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: here, it's just you'd need to know how these lambdas are actually used http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p214535314.txt < 1266166671 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#i are just argument numbers < 1266166682 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's "ski apply" < 1266166695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that isn't a nested structure :< < 1266166706 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C, (char)*address would be address[16] with address[size] < 1266166710 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a big endianmachine < 1266166713 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+space < 1266166719 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what? < 1266166721 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how the boat thing goes < 1266166724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: or size[address] < 1266166726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x[y] = *(x+y) < 1266166730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x+y = y+x < 1266166730 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size address would be < 1266166733 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16[address] < 1266166735 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1266166739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∴ y[x] = x[y] < 1266166749 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, what? < 1266166760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor kiddy doesn't know C < 1266166762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: ok, in C < 1266166763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x[y] is sugar for < 1266166765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(x + y) < 1266166767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know that < 1266166769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + y = y + x < 1266166769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1266166772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore < 1266166775 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I didn't know it was C < 1266166776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*(x + y) = *(y + x) < 1266166777 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266166781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since x[y] is *(x + y) < 1266166782 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what do you mean it's not a nested structure? < 1266166784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y[x] = x[y] < 1266166786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore < 1266166792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1["abc"] = 'b' < 1266166800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well it looks like it's printing parts of the ast separately < 1266166802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'm wrong < 1266166810 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never used strings like that but OKAY < 1266166891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: there's no one ast, running the result isn't just calling one functino < 1266166892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*function < 1266166894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is < 1266166903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true < 1266166910 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the logic isn't in the core language < 1266166912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, that code looks remarkably compact < 1266166915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's the actual application < 1266166922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is ski right < 1266166927 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i can explain what it actually does < 1266166932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just the ski apply function < 1266166941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's compacted everything into one? < 1266166948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it just referencing out < 1266166955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this could be transformed into haskell really easily < 1266166959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the untypedness < 1266166968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have a feeling compiled clue code could be very fast < 1266166973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p116522211.txt <<< slightly clearer, although not much < 1266166988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you should make an ffi there instead of trying to formulate a function, it tries to find one based on the guesses :D < 1266166990 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does condition, and chooses branch based on the result < 1266166999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have some sort of representation of io, so you can say like < 1266167008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"foo" -> output "foo\n" < 1266167009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Base branch (i) means if the cond result is i, run this base branch < 1266167014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be fun < 1266167025 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subast(0,0):['car', ['cdr', '#0']] < 1266167025 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Main ast: '#1' < 1266167027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ah i see < 1266167047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subast(i,j) means find for subcall i the argument number j < 1266167068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1266167078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: can it infer ackermann < 1266167087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah it could be transformed into something haskellish sure. < 1266167092 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously it can infer ackermann < 1266167107 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266167108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm it's obviously tc but i wonder if you can infer any tc function directly ie without interpreting :) < 1266167111 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can do it functionally, you can do it cluely, it just might be a big pain in the ass < 1266167121 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i find simple functions nicer to write in this than functionally < 1266167154 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e(e))you can nest expressions - 2D flow and tests and execution included for major FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF < 1266167164 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't know how much you can do "directly", not that that's a very precise thing to ask < 1266167165 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q[n] WHEN GOING RIGHT OR DOWN access memory at address q with n bits in size < 1266167166 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q[n] WHEN GOING LEFT OR UP access memory at address n with q bits in size - when going left it'd look like ]n[q for note. < 1266167183 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all sufficiently complicated list interpreter blah blah and so on < 1266167187 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lisp < 1266167212 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(read that as a set of words that you can fit in a sentence as homework) < 1266167269 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll make it so that it's little endian if you're going left or up! < 1266167272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wait even if you infer ski < 1266167276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to infer a function that calls it < 1266167282 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1266167284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even if you have ski, you may not be able to cause it to be called in an arbitrary way < 1266167286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well wait < 1266167289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you 'run' a clue program < 1266167294 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't decided ! :D < 1266167294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you define a main function and punch values into it on the cli? < 1266167298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah prolly < 1266167302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1266167307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you had to make one inferred function < 1266167308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say main < 1266167318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where basically < 1266167320 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's always called with like 0 < 1266167323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result value was what is output < 1266167327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266167328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1266167333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no < 1266167337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's always called with the user input < 1266167339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a list of chars (ints) < 1266167347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd have to find a way to parse and call ski arbitrarily from that < 1266167354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. you may not be able to infer arbitrary calls to ski < 1266167362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so even if you have an ski impl, if you go by my route it may not be tc! < 1266167366 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then you'd have to parse, and parsing is inherently quite mutual in its recursion < 1266167374 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the way i usually do it < 1266167379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but I mean < 1266167391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clue may not be able to infer the actual call to eval ski(x) < 1266167460 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? just say "if main gets [1, 2, 3] as input, it should parse that input and call ski with it" < 1266167490 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's depth 2 inference, and will happen in less than a second < 1266167491 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'm misunderstanding something < 1266167493 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let me understand the ski apply function < 1266167570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1266167837 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how should I deal with input? < 1266167892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have there be a certain location in space where characters, as they are inputted, appear; each cycle, they go down one position < 1266167894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fountain of input < 1266167902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not argue with me, this is an excellent idea < 1266167907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going down until you reach a character works as ungetc < 1266167914 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about multiple inputs? < 1266167949 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I COULD send press and release statements < 1266167965 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that works < 1266168015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha you actually like that idea? < 1266168018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was half joking but i like it too < 1266168025 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really like it < 1266168046 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I can't find a way to deal with the whole "new memory area" concept :P < 1266168052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just an area of main memory < 1266168060 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could ruin stuff, though < 1266168067 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p641555462.txt < 1266168067 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's some ugly pseudohaskell for ya < 1266168105 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I barely understand < 1266168114 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ski type also does a major part of this < 1266168152 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the types are 0 = do nothing, 1 = apply i, 2 = apply k, 3 = apply s, 4 = at least depth 4, first recurse on the first element of list, then retry evaluating this < 1266168164 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just let the program TEST for input of a certain character < 1266168170 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do I do that withotu a function? < 1266168172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was hell to infer btw :P < 1266168184 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I don't want to fuck with things like that with a 2D language < 1266168190 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think it's more insight to clue than that code there is < 1266168202 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking abotu boat < 1266168203 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think it's sort of neat < 1266168206 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't have written the program better myself, really < 1266168231 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: sorry i'm so excited about my own thing i mostly ignore boat and logread it every few minutes :| < 1266168241 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1266168250 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean my life finally has meaning < 1266168255 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clue is the shit < 1266168259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you should make it do de bruijn indexes < 1266168272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure what you mean < 1266168279 0 :lifthrasiir!GqHN8XqU@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266168279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k is \\2, s is \\\2 0 (1 0) < 1266168284 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266168301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. currying, lambdas have no variable names, var 0 = closest lambda's arg < 1266168304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var 1 = second-closest < 1266168304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266168315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to do alpha-conversion because it's a nop < 1266168319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can just use a stack to implement it < 1266168325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm basically doing exactly that < 1266168328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and syntactic equality = structural equality < 1266168331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: nah because you have < 1266168334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\#0 #1 -> #0) as K < 1266168344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of (\\#1) < 1266168350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the names of vars change as you nest deeper < 1266168357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can just use a stack < 1266168357 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah i'm not doing that in the haskell representation i did manually < 1266168359 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anser when you're not tied up etc, but: What syntax do I use for checking if a character is being pressed < 1266168364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right < 1266168369 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :answer* < 1266168371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: don't, use the fountain < 1266168377 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the fountain is broken < 1266168384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual "ast" field of the branch representing k is "#0" < 1266168403 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like playing solitare where you can't skip cards < 1266168426 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the haskell thing is just in case you want to see how the crappy "ast" currently spouted by the compiler maps to meaning < 1266168464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ooh I know < 1266168493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: compile it to http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/epic.php; basically, it's the strict untyped-apart-from-some-conveniences-like-ints lambda calculus (with optional laziness) < 1266168501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the special thing is that the compiler tries really hard to produce really fast code < 1266168507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can say < 1266168520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clue: So it takes 9 seconds to compile S I I (S I I), but it executes in 8. < 1266168535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realized it'd be incredibly trivial to change it to output that < 1266168551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define that < 1266168554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epic or haskelly < 1266168559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean so trivial it's basically just changing some of the constant strings < 1266168628 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how would "(\#0 #1 #2 -> pair #1 #2) #0 sub3res1 sub3res2" look like? < 1266168648 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking just like (pair #1 #2) @ #0 sub3res1 sub3res2 < 1266168654 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266168670 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise pretty much exactly the syntax i have now < 1266168673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean in epic? < 1266168680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is (\ a b -> c) curried in yours? < 1266168682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it not matter? < 1266168723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SII doesn't execute in 8 seconds < 1266168723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*SII(SII) < 1266168728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a joke < 1266168738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you still haven't said whether you're talking about epic or something else < 1266168806 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64.vg/uot < 1266168817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ??? < 1266168839 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minimized Boat < 1266168847 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266168863 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266168870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, i don't know what that would change < 1266168887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well epic can actually compile things to efficient C code as opposed to your pseudocode which can't :P < 1266168897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no higher-order functions < 1266168903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266168906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with epic you don't even have lambda < 1266168910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's a supercombinator compiler < 1266168958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i'm getting the feeling you're ignoring me < 1266168971 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about me < 1266168972 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't it? < 1266168975 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j/k < 1266168981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: why can't epic have lambdas? < 1266168993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's meant as a target language, so you're meant to have lambda-lifted already. however clue does not require lambdas < 1266168995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think < 1266169032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm the only values in clue are lists and ints aren't they < 1266169054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are supercombinators < 1266169075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda expressions with no free variables containing no lambdas < 1266169084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. flat lambdas < 1266169118 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably compiling to epic would be nicer than compiling to C, but i could just not to either. < 1266169157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it saves you writing an evaluator < 1266169163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p641555462.txt is literally a stone's throw away from epic < 1266169213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sub1res = (\#0 -> car cdr #0) #0 < 1266169214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wut < 1266169218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make sense? < 1266169219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's cdr's car < 1266169337 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so about that simplified boat < 1266169346 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er minimalized < 1266169375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 => (\#0, #1, #2, #3 -> #3) #0 sub3res1 sub3res2 sub3res3 < 1266169378 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have figured out how one one could compute discrete coordinates in presence of wormholes.... < 1266169380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this "calls" (evaluates) sub3res3 right? < 1266169384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ignores the rest < 1266169463 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Y'know, I think most of the evaluation time in my SKI evaluator is the garbage collection. < 1266169500 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay my lag is too big for ircing < 1266169530 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: How close connection is to being unstable? < 1266169555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266169560 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266169581 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i meant clue doesn't have any higher-order stuff < 1266169593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt here's what I think your program would look like in Epic < 1266169643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*case ski_type(_0) < 1266169702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clue needs tail call optimisation right? < 1266169706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least tail recursion < 1266169710 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a real term? < 1266169715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a real term? < 1266169721 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case that's what i have < 1266169726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266169732 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_recursion ? < 1266169737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he knows what tail recursion is < 1266169740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what real term? < 1266169759 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aiight < 1266169768 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tail call optimization? < 1266169809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are subcomputations that are called with the main computation's arguments and each others outputs, so they are sorta lambdas, but the structure is always the same, so they aren't very real < 1266169809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is flat lambda a real term < 1266169809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, 400 seconds lag < 1266169814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: This is actually easy to explain in C. < 1266169823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no they're really called supercombinators < 1266169828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void foo(){printf("Foo!\n");foo();} < 1266169831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: also did you just get that recently? i translated you whole program into epic in that time < 1266169843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because foo() is the last thing called, the function does not need to be returned to. < 1266169855 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, the compiler can not keep around the stack frame. < 1266169862 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of "call foo", it can just do "jmp foo". < 1266169867 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266169871 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no shit < 1266169890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, tail recursive functions are easily compiled into loops. < 1266169934 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: sub1res = (\#0 -> car cdr #0) #0" <<< sorry car (cdr #0) < 1266169935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: this "calls" (evaluates) sub3res3 right?" <<< yes < 1266169944 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tail calls can be compiled into jumps < 1266169946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right I fixed that. http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt just to repeat < 1266169948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt < 1266169948 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more general than < 1266169948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt < 1266169951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't < 1266169951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt < 1266169952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :miss it < 1266169952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p216431545.txt < 1266169955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the next flood you get < 1266169994 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only values are, at least now, ints and lists. < 1266170025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog < 1266170025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog < 1266170026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog < 1266170026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog < 1266170026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog < 1266170027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C version < 1266170030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, but tail calls that aren't tail recursion are less common. < 1266170039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I disagree < 1266170042 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266170042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rarely recurse < 1266170043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though continuation-passing style does it all the bloody time) < 1266170059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tail recurse that is < 1266170059 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: clue needs tail call optimisation right?" <<< yes, although i'm fine with not having it for now. < 1266170064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Explicitly. < 1266170066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of my tail calls are non-recursion < 1266170072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways. < 1266170079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i think epic almost certainly does TCO < 1266170082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still pretty darned common. < 1266170085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog will do tco if you put it through gcc :P < 1266170090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-O3 will probably unroll all the functions there < 1266170120 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, GCC does TCO rather nicely. < 1266170153 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: oklopol: also did you just get that recently? i translated you whole program into epic in that time" <<< i got it with about a 5 minute lag. < 1266170163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the lag is less now < 1266170173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though things like "longjmp" break it) < 1266170203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting my C version through gcc will probably result in http://pastie.org/824550.txt?key=kwk16wfca7b8zitdyh59ew < 1266170206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you give it -O3 < 1266170211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will also tail-call optimise it < 1266170220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus making it pretty much as efficient a compilation as possible < 1266170223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Fski_type(_0) < 1266170496 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so about minimizing boat < 1266170732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how much a super-optimising compiler should evaluate code < 1266170735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to IO: no, nontermination < 1266170746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only what it can prove total: large mathematical program would take years < 1266170757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need something just below < 1266170759 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1266170760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. everything trivially total < 1266170774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like some way of measuring how "complicated" something is to eval < 1266170783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything it can prove total whose complicatedness is below a certain threshold < 1266170826 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up to an inability to deduce a smaller way to do something < 1266170844 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at which point it should assume brute-force status! < 1266170985 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is that actual epic code? could i just translate to exactly that? because that would indeed be trivial < 1266171002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well there's no actual spec I just base dit on this: http://www-fp.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~eb/darcs/EpiVM/examples/testprog.e < 1266171013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it has actual ints btw so ignore the fact that that defines them itsellf < 1266171014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :itself < 1266171016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(albeit using 0 and 1) < 1266171025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do your lists just do Con head (Con head ()) < 1266171029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and case on that < 1266171035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, per my knowledge of epic, that should work < 1266171054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266171057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my types were wrong though < 1266171060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data isn't correct < 1266171062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should be Any < 1266171068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for it may be data and it may be an int < 1266171072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, s/Data/Any/g in my program < 1266171088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but according to my understanding of epic, yes, that should work. < 1266171117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog with gcc -O3 should compile to something competent as well < 1266171123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically identical code < 1266171127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epic probably does more lambday optimisations though < 1266171133 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/VIDEOS/fire_control_computer_1.html < 1266171137 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is sooooooooooooooo sexy < 1266171229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: in the language in http://www.jucs.org/jucs_10_7/total_functional_programming/jucs_10_07_0751_0768_turner.pdf you never have to prove totality right? < 1266171232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the compiler can do it in all cases < 1266171246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: also i forgot one tiny thing: you have to actually recurse on the subcases :D < 1266171263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well, you didn't do that, so there :) < 1266171268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: btw why do you have all those useless functions? < 1266171273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just inline them all? < 1266171284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an absolutely trivial transformation, after all < 1266171290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what useless functions? < 1266171294 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I saw that URL and just assumed it was Eugene Lee's Lover :P < 1266171298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: all the _ski stuff < 1266171310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ditto < 1266171314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: (in mine) < 1266171316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: in the where clause < 1266171318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can inline every single one < 1266171404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can, but that would've been much less illustrative imo < 1266171485 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266171486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but faster < 1266171492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Libster is still banned right? < 1266171496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe changed ident < 1266171506 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"faster"? < 1266171506 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266171512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: less function calls < 1266171512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faster to read? i don't think so < 1266171522 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was 74-102 last I checked < 1266171527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm saying when you have something like http://pastie.org/824546.txt?key=ri1rc17yhlciscu01zkog < 1266171537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the _ski functions are useless < 1266171540 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[+q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] < 1266171549 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1266171551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just take the expr inside return X; and replace the call with it < 1266171599 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no function calls, any decent thing would optimize them away; and i don't have _ski functions, i have lambdas to show what info each computation in the where clause needs < 1266171638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just drop the lambda, but you couldn't see what computations are based on what computations, as clearly < 1266171645 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lambdas < 1266171705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need to show what info it needs? just curious < 1266171710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just compiler output after all < 1266171714 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanted you to know :D < 1266171723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right well i'm talking about for when it actually compiles :P < 1266171748 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not considering doing that right now, just compiling for human reading < 1266171752 0 :thermoplyae!~ecpeterso@c-98-228-49-203.hsd1.il.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266171758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1266171770 0 :thermoplyae!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266171774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess if i just changed it a bit so it's actually haskell, it'd be a nice compilation for computers too < 1266171774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thermoplyae :o < 1266171832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no because it won't type in haskell prolly < 1266171839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't express all ski exprs in haskell < 1266171886 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266171891 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see Libster in the ban list? < 1266171899 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a +q < 1266171900 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a +b < 1266171901 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does irssi not show the ban list correctly? < 1266171906 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[+q *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net] < 1266171932 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought those showed up in the ban list, just hade a % in front < 1266171935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*had < 1266171947 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk lol < 1266171952 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1266171963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+q is like the happy friendly form of +b < 1266171973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look but don't touch! < 1266171997 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266172015 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's neither happy nor friendly < 1266172050 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's better than genocide < 1266172122 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So about that Boat minimalization while still being somewhat easy to use < 1266172129 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::< < 1266172241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interpreter segfaults when I compute something like fact 100000000. < 1266172241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because stack checks are not enabled by default. < 1266172241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266172247 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1266172274 0 :base3!~rk@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266172311 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-122.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266172314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol poor fools trying again < 1266172328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: are they actually that determined :) < 1266172331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are their irc clients just rejoining < 1266172339 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266172495 0 :base3__!~rk@host81-141-232-119.wlms-broadband.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266172518 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: firstly don't think i can't evade a ban if i want to < 1266172533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no shit < 1266172536 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secondly how can you be in this channel and not know what car of cdr is? < 1266172541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know what car of cdr is < 1266172543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wrote "car cdr x" < 1266172545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he meant "car (cdr x)" < 1266172551 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266172556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know whether that was some special semantics for Clue functions < 1266172557 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you don't undestand CAR or CDR < 1266172560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whether it was a mistake < 1266172563 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your ISP only randomixes the least significant byte < 1266172565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he informed me it was the latter < 1266172570 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: flase < 1266172574 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false* < 1266172574 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise stop acting like you know lisp < 1266172579 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266172643 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266172691 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64.vg/uot What can I do to make there be less stuff here, without making asinine requirements for some simple things? < 1266172871 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: +qs showed up in the ban list for freenode's old ircd, but they're different things in this new "seven". < 1266172923 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just do /mode +q to see the +qs < 1266172954 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not lying < 1266172971 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on some ircds that would kill the channel < 1266172991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya is having a hard time with this trolling thing < 1266172993 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: just do /quit #channel to kill a channel on this version < 1266173009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sigh < 1266173021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: are we going to play cat and mouse or staring contest < 1266173024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta be one or the other < 1266173025 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do /quit alise to quit someone who is annoying you < 1266173034 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base3, I'm not retarded < 1266173036 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266173046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either they evade and we re-ban, or we wait until they get bored < 1266173057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, they're probably already bored if they think trolling us is productive. < 1266173059 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it comes to the same thing really < 1266173066 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*!*@host81-141--*.wlms-broadband.com < 1266173067 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be nice if any of the regulars in this channel were ops. < 1266173070 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*!*@host81-141-*-*.wlms-broadband.com < 1266173071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: fizzie is < 1266173075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he banned them earlier, and is here right now < 1266173085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ban @*.wlms-broadband.com < 1266173091 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's assholish < 1266173094 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:43 < base3__> or do /quit alise to quit someone who is annoying you < 1266173096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and foolproof < 1266173098 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys I think he might be a hacker < 1266173098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quited, not banned. Still. < 1266173100 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so watch out < 1266173106 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Haw < 1266173108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless he goes to a friend's house; if he does that, we can just laugh at him i guess < 1266173115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quieted, I mean. Heh. < 1266173116 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen i told you how to check the quiet list < 1266173117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: planned course of action? < 1266173122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who runs the channel, as far as ChanServ's concerned? < 1266173127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i think lament < 1266173128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure the founder isn't around any more. < 1266173129 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wasn't trolling it was genuinely being helpfu; < 1266173130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used to be aardappel < 1266173133 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament is second. < 1266173136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah. < 1266173142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base3__: Seriously, what do you think we are, idiots? < 1266173144 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then Wareya starting talking nonsense so i played along with him < 1266173147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're honestly going to have to troll far better than that. < 1266173154 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me? < 1266173161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1266173165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, yeah you are going to have to troll much better than that < 1266173168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament was set to inherit. < 1266173170 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you really think that /mode +q with no args doesnt give you the list of quiets?? < 1266173182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: plz just ban eir isp < 1266173183 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the gospel truth < 1266173185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or quieten it, whatever < 1266173190 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try it in another channel < 1266173191 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :troll? < 1266173192 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're fucking kidding me < 1266173192 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's completely serious, /mode +q shows the quiet list < 1266173192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can add exceptions later if anyone else actually uses it... < 1266173204 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:46 < MissPiggy> Wareya, yeah you are going to have to troll much better than that < 1266173205 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, this is no laughing matter < 1266173208 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry, what? < 1266173224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i think you're taking this a little too seriously < 1266173232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're letting the terr--trolls win < 1266173234 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt i'm going to repeatedly come back in here to wind you guys up tbh < 1266173244 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not as entertaining as you seem to think you are < 1266173247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's wound up, i'm just prodding fizzie to ban your isp < 1266173250 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's time for virtuchuck. < 1266173257 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definitely. < 1266173261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out we don't try and be entertaining when people are just going to shit on your conversations < 1266173262 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could use a protein shake < 1266173267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ooh, make it trigger on every single line he says! < 1266173268 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really have a plan. Maybe he'll behave, though; things have been much more discussioney so far, even if the discussion is not an especially interesting one. < 1266173271 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:46 -!- 0 - #esoteric: ban *!*@host81-141-232-7.wlms-broadband.com [by ChanServ!ChanServ@services., 7348 secs ago] < 1266173272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base3__: We entertain ourselves quite well. :) < 1266173274 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:46 -!- 0 - #esoteric: ban *!*@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net [by ChanServ!ChanServ@services., 7352 secs ago] < 1266173274 0 :virtuchuck!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266173274 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we don't do friendly ai right.. < 1266173277 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what /mode +q shows < 1266173280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: THEN WHAT?! < 1266173281 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Chuck norris once ate a whole cake before his friends could tell him there was a stripper in it. < 1266173284 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck chuck is tlaking about friendly ai < 1266173289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it listens to us < 1266173302 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: what was that about friendly ai? < 1266173302 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: What was that about friendly ai. < 1266173303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Welcome to Markov chains. < 1266173311 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: Compare Chuck Norris to base3__. < 1266173312 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: 3 Laws or weaker system. < 1266173314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1266173316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: < 1266173316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266173328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: You have to repeat what I said just now. < 1266173328 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of animals chuck norris once ate a whole cake before his friends could tell him there was a stripper in it. < 1266173353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Is this chuck a friend of yours? < 1266173354 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you mean an a-list? < 1266173372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the bots. < 1266173373 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm < 1266173378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wonderful, wonderful bots. < 1266173383 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If fungot talks at the wrong time, they'll get into an infinite loop :P < 1266173384 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well when i am around people, but inconsistency is part of the system that's used for work now, so need only decide when to do which < 1266173385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: AI < 1266173385 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: If we don't do friendly ai right.. < 1266173386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A-List bots :D < 1266173394 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`c printf("Hey, I can talk too!\n") < 1266173394 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266173397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: poop < 1266173398 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's freaking technology improving itself. < 1266173399 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266173404 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lololol < 1266173406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck: Poop is self-improving technology? < 1266173407 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's freaking technology improving itself. < 1266173409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... No output. < 1266173414 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuchuck has just learned about the singularity for the first time < 1266173416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266173420 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Fungot has an anti-loop thing on the chat side, though. < 1266173423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now he's obsessing < 1266173428 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Good :P < 1266173431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he thinks it's faeces though < 1266173434 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I preferred virtuLORD. < 1266173435 0 :virtuchuck!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266173439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("Hey, I can talk too!\n") < 1266173441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blend the two < 1266173446 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I can talk too! < 1266173448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the LORD said, inject your protein shakes < 1266173449 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I can talk too! < 1266173454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO IT < 1266173454 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I can talk too! < 1266173456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But HackEgo cannot. < 1266173471 0 :virtuLORD!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266173471 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baltasar's profane banquet: his sentence is welcome to the law, or the hired man that is since lost. < 1266173473 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I just realised something. < 1266173481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The old hobby of trying to break EgoBot has gone away. < 1266173491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: blend virtulord and virtuchuck now. < 1266173497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite a while ago. < 1266173498 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Okidoke, will do. < 1266173500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266173506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're better at IRC bots. :P < 1266173523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a bible-trained fungot speaker somewhere, but I don't think I put it in the bot. < 1266173524 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: look at all the oo is fnord. insist on using modern regexps even though they are not < 1266173531 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1266173531 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1266173536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern regexps are indeed not regular expressions < 1266173543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and OO is indeed smoke and mirrors!! < 1266173550 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, none of those look very biblical to me. < 1266173563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc* < 1266173564 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not found. < 1266173569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curses. < 1266173588 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The * is just the current-selection-marker there. < 1266173630 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1266173650 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style.^ < 1266173653 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derp < 1266173655 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc.^ < 1266173655 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not found. < 1266173657 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derp < 1266173659 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc.* < 1266173659 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not found. < 1266173660 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suclk < 1266173662 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suck < 1266173666 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SUCK < 1266173725 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sulk. < 1266173732 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtfbbq < 1266173738 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just nearly crashed my system trying to combine them :P < 1266173749 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roflolticas < 1266173922 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuLORD: Give us the good news! < 1266173922 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And he that received the news heli falleth backward and not to resist evil, etc. . .What is prophetically delivered here, and in the book out of the lord driveth on. < 1266173938 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amen. < 1266174256 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q[n] WHEN GOING RIGHT OR DOWN access memory at bit address q with n bits in size - big endian, size 3 of address 4 would occupy address 2 3 and 4 < 1266174259 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q[n] WHEN GOING LEFT OR UP access memory at bit address n with q bits in size - little endian, size 3 of address 4 would occupy address 4 5 and 6 - note that when going left it would look like ]n[q < 1266174263 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q[n][m] WHEN GOING RIGHT OR UP access slot m of array starting at the memory suited to q and n with a little endian style array - for lower values of m the address is lower < 1266174266 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q[n][m] WHEN GOING LEFT OR DOWN access slot m of array starting at the memory suited to q and n with a little endian style array - for lower values of m the address is higher < 1266174269 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266174271 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266174300 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not having looked at the language at all except for what you just pasted, reminds me slightly of 2L. < 1266174312 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64.vg/src/48029a6eda8165c6d5a5b6f71a785f1e/raw < 1266174317 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Namely, in that it has different actions depending on direction. < 1266174321 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to minimalize Boat < 1266174329 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Boat < 1266174330 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this boat < 1266174559 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1266174594 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello is this a channel about esoteric programming languages like java < 1266174606 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266174639 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hyuk hyuk < 1266174653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java doesn't seem all that esoteric. < 1266174664 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it does have many an odd design feature, it is extremely well-known. < 1266174673 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like perl < 1266174696 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is "how well known" a metric for being esoteric? < 1266174698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Except Perl is entirely composed of odd design features. < 1266174704 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266174709 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Somewhat, yes. < 1266174718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Esoteric implies both "odd" and "unknown". < 1266174733 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etymologically speaking, how well known and used it is should be the only metric, but it's not :P < 1266174751 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Heheh. < 1266174753 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think BF is somewhat well known' < 1266174763 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I will present a counter-example. Vala is not a very well known language, yet it is not esoteric. BCPL as well. < 1266174767 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Yes, but well known *soley for being odd*. < 1266174783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: They're intended for serious use, and as such aren't all that odd. < 1266174815 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So being well known or not doesn't qualify as a metric for being esoteric it seems. < 1266174818 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 'esoteric' is an antonym of 'serious'? < 1266174846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base3__: To an extent. < 1266174858 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mindrape < 1266174956 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind rape? < 1266174961 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind rape < 1266174973 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was a yes-or-no question. < 1266174981 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind rape < 1266175019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Still yes-or-no. < 1266175024 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind rape < 1266175037 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean yes < 1266175076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pushes the "mind rape" buttonb < 1266175092 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this channel an antonym for serious? < 1266175108 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind rape < 1266175110 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean yes < 1266175189 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Yes. < 1266175201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we are capable of being serious. < 1266175207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, that is not the raison d'etre. < 1266175215 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e/e) division < 1266175218 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY DID I DO THAT < 1266175219 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFJ@#e-0fu@VQ@U()A < 1266175835 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, this is my last draft before bed < 1266175836 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://64.vg/src/fad448fab17d0b8f569a451741adbd07/raw < 1266175838 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1266175891 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266176117 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That, or I can procrastinate sleep. < 1266176161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you only master procrastination properly when you can procrastinate breathing. < 1266176176 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266176188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure there are side effects < 1266176190 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my new year's resolution < 1266176196 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was to make one next year < 1266176218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can always put that off another year < 1266176218 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine was to not make a resolution. < 1266176222 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always fail at it. < 1266176245 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an okymoronic irony! < 1266176250 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oxymoronic* < 1266176326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear that once you can procrastinate breathing, you very quickly will be able to procrastinate _anything_. in fact you'll be unable not to. except decomposing. < 1266176350 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck yeah. < 1266176480 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am procrastinating procrastinating working on this, < 1266176493 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266176559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be able to procrastinate P and not P at the same time, that is the essence of zen. or perhaps anti-zen, i'm not sure. < 1266176571 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah < 1266176599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Zen is both zen and anti-zen. < 1266176606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the essence of zen. < 1266176614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1266176729 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I can minimalize this anymore < 1266176976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minimalise a butt butt < 1266177065 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a butt butt is as low as a butt < 1266177117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying butts are idempotent? < 1266177136 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266177169 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what abotu the idiot bird < 1266177172 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mocking bird < 1266177454 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, if the forest has, for every particular birds A and B, another bird C who will reply A's reply to B's reply when you call to it i.e. Cx = A(Bx) -- and the forest has a mockingbird too -- can you show for every bird in the forest it is fond* of some other bird i.e. QF = F (F may depend on Q) < 1266177484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Q is fond of F means QF = F) < 1266177495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was a mockingbird again < 1266177503 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mx = xx < 1266177531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so M and composition < 1266177540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266177544 0 :virtuLORD!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266177556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: congrats you just made everything super complex :D < 1266177557 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not saying there is a combinator for making C, just that C exists < 1266177577 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you convert that to C I'll be able to do it :D < 1266177582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan yes < 1266177588 0 :virtuhird!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266177589 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ican do a blocking read it'll wait until the process id, modulo something. < 1266177592 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, that means you are giving up? < 1266177601 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can only half understand what you're saying < 1266177605 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_i_ haven't < 1266177613 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's still no Virtugeo :( < 1266177626 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yo dawg, I heard you like Hird, so I put a Hird in your herd so you can Hird while you heard! < 1266177627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i understand how fixpoints are usually constructed from M < 1266177630 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably because of the metaphor of birds < 1266177632 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266177651 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made virtuhird exclusively to say that line. < 1266177653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: just s/bird/combinator/g < 1266177665 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on linux < 1266177674 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :running IRSSI through SSH < 1266177674 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, well this IS a difficult problem -- but the solution can be got in a methodical way < 1266177674 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(infact there's two methodical ways to get the solution that I know of) < 1266177732 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"can you show for every bird in the forest it is fond of some other bird" < 1266177735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: <3 < 1266177735 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And it seems more common than (2*3)+4. < 1266177741 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not understand < 1266177744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: Marry me. < 1266177744 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Marry him a few ssh tricks you can give you into a file * can you? < 1266177753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird < 1266177753 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhurd: 0/0 < 1266177756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: < 1266177759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177760 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Solution: kill ancestors. < 1266177767 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES. < 1266177767 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhurd: <3 0/0 < 1266177768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: how can i tell it "give me everything" < 1266177770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix f = (\x -> f (x x)) (\x -> f (x x)) < 1266177772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is it listening to me or us? < 1266177780 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhurd: Marry me. < 1266177780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, it's not just virtuhird :< < 1266177781 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just you < 1266177786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i mean for its db < 1266177788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, did you include tusho and alise < 1266177790 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh idk < 1266177793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ehird` < 1266177802 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: tusho no, alise yes, ehird` no. < 1266177811 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: However, I had to cut it short, so really alise no :P < 1266177816 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The brain was getting too big. < 1266177829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like me < 1266177831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now why is it dead < 1266177833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: Poop < 1266177833 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Poop ovulates over poop. < 1266177841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: how can I tell it "just give me anything" < 1266177841 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow < 1266177846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i actually said that :) < 1266177855 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't think hal.pl has such a feature :( < 1266177859 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: < 1266177862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177862 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, memes get killed off extremely quickly and efficiently. < 1266177864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177865 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: A tiny backtrace snippet from the base class. < 1266177867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177867 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext lm 3dnowext 3dnow up ts fid vid ttp. < 1266177870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177870 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Lalalla sudo vi /etc/thttpd/thttpd.conf. < 1266177872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177872 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was just being flippant. < 1266177874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177874 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Bloatzilla, then, i assume. < 1266177876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177876 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That makes no sense when i say '?' i mean 'something else. < 1266177879 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agg, stop < 1266177879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1266177882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i love it < 1266177883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does /msg work < 1266177886 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1266177899 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: e < 1266177900 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Eyoyanaka <- e, o and a space. < 1266177908 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said that? <_> < 1266177909 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird, PSOX < 1266177910 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Sgeo: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be the first okoperformancescript. < 1266177915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I did. < 1266177916 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did she < 1266177917 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266177924 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177924 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: P seems most logical explanation and i will talk mor ewhen you return. < 1266177928 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird, PSOX < 1266177929 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: . < 1266177930 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. < 1266177932 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Damn i want it to zy3jkanfka. < 1266177937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename." < 1266177937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266177939 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: rage < 1266177939 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge. < 1266177945 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. < 1266177946 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :130| Sgeo_: Gregorr: and someone could, by mistake, rewrite psox to be a weak erection if it is... A filename. < 1266177959 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266177959 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like ehird. < 1266177966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: sex < 1266177966 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ais523: gay sex is not of the race because its names aren't all meaningless 2-character gibberish with \s and .s everywhere. < 1266177972 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: rage < 1266177973 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge. < 1266177980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: fuck < 1266177980 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ha ha ha what the fuck, a 2 minute long guide on how to actually write anything useful. < 1266177984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: fuck < 1266177984 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And the paddles speed up most programs a lot - coderay sucks. What the fuck we want, make your parameters self-describing. < 1266177988 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: esoteric < 1266177988 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Http://www.formauri.es/personal/pgimeno/temp/esoteric/paintfuck/paintfuck.php or the variable's value? < 1266177996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: fuck < 1266177996 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Fuck you haskellers and your local copy? < 1266177999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: fuck < 1266178000 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: audio < 1266178000 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Anmaster: fuck off if i removed the bottom right. < 1266178001 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Which e.g. Copying audio data from many folders: cd, operation, cd, operation. < 1266178004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: fuck < 1266178005 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: + And | are... Whatever the fuck up. < 1266178007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha this is perfect < 1266178008 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish you could tell megahal "Forget a bunch of what you know" :P < 1266178009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Wareya: Ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ bzr branch http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge. <-- outdated url < 1266178009 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: qwerty < 1266178010 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Qwerty-5 = identity. < 1266178016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: no this is so amazing < 1266178021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: >_< < 1266178025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: viruanmaster, now < 1266178026 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:06 < virtuhird> Wareya: Qwerty-5 = identity. < 1266178028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*virtuanmaster < 1266178029 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GENIUS < 1266178031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, irritating highlight spam bot that (in practise) < 1266178034 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: nono, so I could feasibly feed it the latest you. < 1266178037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266178040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter this is great < 1266178040 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: , < 1266178041 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Since there's no reason other than my old, crusty computer though ... That thing was broken an hour or so ago. < 1266178043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now make one for anmaster < 1266178053 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: complex < 1266178053 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm building Sgeo_, since he kept complaining :P < 1266178053 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Oh noes the joke by interpreting something as complex as hell. < 1266178061 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh. < 1266178061 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: It's just that my frog can't eh. < 1266178070 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So < 1266178078 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what < 1266178082 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So < 1266178083 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh. < 1266178094 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did it respond to that < 1266178380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: fuck you < 1266178380 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: They can be claimed and worked for me i don't wanna fuck with my eyes, i guess. < 1266178382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :|? < 1266178384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266178387 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266178390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: AnMaster < 1266178390 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Don't worry, anmaster is talking about g. < 1266178393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: AnMaster < 1266178393 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Anmaster: can you translate what ihope is an agoran. < 1266178401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: ontological < 1266178401 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/esme. < 1266178405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDD < 1266178410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: ontological < 1266178411 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Anyway, generated asmmy! < 1266178448 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird, Agora < 1266178448 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Oerjan: agora office. < 1266178459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the office of oerjan < 1266178467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: haskell < 1266178468 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I haven't really used haskell much, but offset=0 and amount=-1 will copy all. < 1266178509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what algorithm is that bot based on < 1266178517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which esolang is it coded in? < 1266178517 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's MegaHAL. < 1266178641 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: You're really not needed here ya know < 1266178641 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Anmaster: i'm ignoring you because you're really not needed here ya know. < 1266178668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it's picking up channel input < 1266178670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are CORRUPTING me < 1266178685 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Toooooo bad :P < 1266178693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuhird: and to think I loved you. < 1266178694 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I loved all of the administrators of the edit war about whether to link you. < 1266178749 0 :virtuhird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266178783 0 :virtugold!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266178784 0 :virtugold!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unable to find the personality brain/megahal.trn < 1266178789 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhhh, whoops :P < 1266178791 0 :virtugold!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266178819 0 :virtugold!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266178819 0 :virtugold!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow couldn't that choke due to personal disagreements with semantic and practical issues, i decided to make it feasible. < 1266178838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't you have multiple guys < 1266178840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also who's gold < 1266178875 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gold knows who Gold is. < 1266178875 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might be me (if so, grr), might not. Evidence for not: I don't remember saying anything along those lines < 1266178894 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gold is as Gold does. < 1266178894 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugold, PSOX < 1266178899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: if we don't know the identity of gold, why is eir virtual relative in here? < 1266178905 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugold: SUPOX < 1266178913 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugold, ehird < 1266178920 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtugold, you alive? < 1266178924 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems broken :P < 1266178926 0 :virtugold!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266178930 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1266178952 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Gregor does know my last name < 1266179026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seth Gold *does* ring a bell. < 1266179038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's Seth something, and I think I saved it to a file, but that will have long gone missing and dusty. < 1266179050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: VirtuAnMaster. < 1266179052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: You must. < 1266179060 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: AnMaster also talks too much :P < 1266179061 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants a non-broken me < 1266179062 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Like YOU. < 1266179070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Just take a random 1/N of his lines < 1266179081 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266179088 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, thanks for making me more cyberstalkable < 1266179097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seth Gold. < 1266179100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo is Seth Gold. < 1266179102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seth Gold is Sgeo. < 1266179103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mwahahahahahaha < 1266179125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seth Gold Americas Hottest DJ' < 1266179125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30 Jan 2010 ... DJ Seth Gold debuts at Size Sundays in Los Angeles this weekend! Flyer & Info below: Brought to you by Elite Unlimited Underwear ... < 1266179129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you have anything to worry about < 1266179134 0 :virtunotsgeosurn!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266179135 0 :virtunotsgeosurn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any hypotheses on the basics to make a flash client for robozzle? < 1266179141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: ANMASTER DAMMIT < 1266179151 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtunotsgeosurn, robozzle < 1266179170 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtfbbq < 1266179175 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtunotsgeosurn: Hewwo? < 1266179177 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1266179180 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it thinks its name is < 1266179183 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtunotsgeosurname: Hewwo? < 1266179183 0 :virtunotsgeosurn!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Document.write("hello world!" what algorithm is that bot based on < 1266180545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and which esolang is it coded in? < 1266180546 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet, I made a megahal brain that segfaults >_> < 1266180552 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes you did < 1266180552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah that answers one < 1266180554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :megahal < 1266180556 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's MegaHAL. < 1266180561 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the answer to both. < 1266180580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, is megahal a programming language? < 1266180587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as the bot < 1266180628 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B1333A0.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266180649 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bot is in Perl and C. < 1266180673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, also which one was the segfaulting model? < 1266180682 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266180686 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll see (maybe) :P < 1266180696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And it's not a person) < 1266180701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO AN MASTER < 1266180742 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: TOO - MUCH - DATA < 1266180753 0 :virtuPOSIX!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266180753 0 :virtuPOSIX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Equivalent to the user explic. < 1266180768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: TAKE A RANDOM 1/N OF IT < 1266180775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INCREASE N EACH TIME IT'S TOO BIG < 1266180794 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It takes like a half hour with the full data, so slowly working it down would take a long time :P < 1266180795 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Increase N each time N is too big. < 1266180807 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuPOSIX: Tell me about printf! < 1266180812 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style wp < 1266180813 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages) < 1266180816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuPOSIX, hm < 1266180821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuPOSIX, fopen < 1266180826 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why isn't virtuPOSIX responding :( < 1266180834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Take 1/4th then < 1266180834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, did it segfault? < 1266180836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's gotta be small enough < 1266180844 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fekk < 1266180846 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it segfaulted. < 1266180875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, segfaulting is undefined behaviour. I spot ironicness here < 1266180909 0 :virtuPOSIX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266180919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ironicness" >_< < 1266180926 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Have you considered profile-aided optimisation? < 1266180927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I know it doesn't exist < 1266180951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Ha, isn't that segfaulting upstart ludicrous? You never segfault, no matter how badly I mess up. < 1266180952 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the claims are disputed or widely fnord, would be in order. fnord fnord < 1266180979 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you be disputin' my claims there. < 1266181009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fungot: Ha, isn't that segfaulting upstart ludicrous? You never segfault, no matter how badly I mess up. <-- please be careful with what you claim. Remember I coded the interpreter it runs on < 1266181011 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: " as in the rest of the article is " here we stand" the fnord, but someone put that fnord was recommended for the niger mission by his cia wife, and not ' seton'. ' fnord'" is being used on this page. < 1266181021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though hopefully it should never segfault < 1266181039 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION really has shovelling he sould attend to < 1266181073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only way that could possibly result in that would be some badly tested out of memory code path or such. Maybe. Hopefully not. < 1266181727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Increase N each time N is too big. <-- hehe < 1266181742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, figured out why it segfaulted? < 1266181747 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nope < 1266181750 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not going to try, either. < 1266181751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, gdb? < 1266181763 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, I'm going to go debug some ancient code I didn't write. < 1266181814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well, it could be trivial. I would at least try it and take a look at the the line. Could be a trivial fix. < 1266181828 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nooooooooooooot gonna do it. < 1266181831 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Noooooooooooooooooooooot gonna do it. < 1266181835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then < 1266181856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just saying that you can take a quick look at the backtrace without debugging it in depth < 1266181882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: Have you considered profile-aided optimisation? <-- for what? < 1266182409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1266182471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1266182847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Profile-aided optimisation... for DANCING < 1266183217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's play Zookoo's Triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle). < 1266183244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Names: Secure and decentralised, secure and human-meaningful, or decentralised and human-meaningful? < 1266183249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick one pair. < 1266183596 0 :augur_!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266183702 0 :virtuMaster!~gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266183702 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehirdiphone, he could just say "strange for hello world to use lyx some years ago. < 1266183726 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: Are you a suitable replacement for AnMaster? < 1266183727 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: For me it is run directly from the lamp in the same as in "not a possible replacement for anmaster? < 1266183735 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seeeeee. < 1266183798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, I don't quite think I would say that < 1266183814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night really, and stop highlight spam please < 1266183815 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: Do you think you would say that? < 1266183816 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Like "i think i need to curl up the same connection. Might be an option to me then. < 1266183819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1266183832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: ehird < 1266183832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster hates it when someone uses his nick < 1266183833 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ehird, i was thinking more along the same rules are at 40 k/s from most places. < 1266183841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: ehird < 1266183843 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ehird, it would depend on the stack at a time. < 1266183844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if you just say AnMaster for no reason < 1266183845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: ehird < 1266183846 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "i was born. < 1266183848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: ehird < 1266183849 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ehird, no luck with cfunge? < 1266183853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: sigh < 1266183854 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sigh whatever, can wait. < 1266183856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: sigh < 1266183857 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Must be a bit jerky, like window moving. Sigh. <-- Even with metacity on intel graphics it works very well. < 1266183860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: sigh < 1266183860 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sigh, not free it seems. < 1266183862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: sigh < 1266183862 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sigh... Bbs, phone. < 1266183865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: -_- < 1266183865 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 21:57:27 coppro: umm... Bye? < 1266183867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: -_- < 1266183868 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ehird_, your solution fails at holiday logo? < 1266183873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww it doesn't remember his emotes. < 1266183876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: night, really < 1266183877 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Deewiant, well it was *she* who had it, not me. Guess while i'm no expert on the last night of the world is utterly bonkers <-- the latter. We all know that. < 1266183889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183889 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ehird, they don't use it on an ipv6 block allocated, they don't know iki piki's gender. Not sure if you have that last example, i'm not immature! < 1266183892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183893 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ehird, i'm not immature! < 1266183898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266183898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183899 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Soupdragon, i'm not immature! < 1266183902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDD < 1266183904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183904 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sgeo, i'm not immature! < 1266183908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDD < 1266183909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183909 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Fungot, i'm not immature! < 1266183911 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266183912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahahahahahah < 1266183915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what the fuck < 1266183916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183917 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Though, i'm not immature! < 1266183919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183919 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Though, i'm not immature! < 1266183921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183921 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sgeo, i'm not immature! < 1266183922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183923 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ehird, i'm not immature! < 1266183925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183925 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ehird, i'm not immature! < 1266183926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: immature < 1266183926 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: sexy < 1266183927 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ais523, i'm not immature! < 1266183929 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I guess it is spelled properly. < 1266183930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266183931 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtuMaster: mature < 1266183932 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266183932 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Hm i want to spoil it. < 1266183940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: it's because "," -> "i'm not immature" < 1266183944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he uses , as his nick prefix < 1266183947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, suffix < 1266183948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet < 1266183963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i guess it is < 1266183967 0 :virtuMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266183995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> nonfix foo; < 1266183995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (quote foo) foo = false; < 1266183995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :, line 2: function 'quote' was previously defined with 1 args < 1266183997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure hates Quine < 1266184012 0 :augur_!~augur@96.231.221.92 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266184117 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to make an Uru Live age with a Brainfuck interpreter machine < 1266184564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know of a standard algorithm to convert a natural number into an easy-to-pronounce, easy-to-memorise alphabetical form? < 1266184575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously it is not too hard to write one, but if one already exists it probably has had more thought put into it. < 1266184777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the shorter the result the better. < 1266184959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There's that format mooz wrote a Befunge converter for. It's alphabetical, easyish to pronounce; two out of three ain't bad. < 1266184981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm interested. < 1266184982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :176.215.16.104 == "divzip-dibbel" < 1266184982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30.122.0.74 == "pobmol-dabmek" < 1266184982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :149.229.247.52 == "nitvas-siztif" < 1266185000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 32-bit stuff can be done relatively well with two words of six letters. < 1266185005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit of awkward pronunciation, but alright. < 1266185015 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The generated numbers are on the long side, unfortunately. < 1266185074 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :425616 < 1266185075 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WizzooBarRazzleHuzzooSpazzooFizzooSpoo < 1266185080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has... a certain charm. < 1266185087 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps not exactly what you were looking for. < 1266185092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bit ... ecstatic for my tastes. < 1266185123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Let's play Zookoo's Triangle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle). < 1266185123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Names: Secure and decentralised, secure and human-meaningful, or decentralised and human-meaningful? < 1266185123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Pick one pair. < 1266185128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody wants to play :( < 1266185213 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convert to base 26, intercalate vowels < 1266185245 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or anything, really, you skip every other letter < 1266185282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :base 26? that means you could get "beeep" < 1266185283 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266185294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't very distinguishable from "beep" < 1266185319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you mean base 21 < 1266185326 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1266185330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm sure you can get more information density than that < 1266185355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: so you don't get both "beeeeep" and "beeep" < 1266185364 0 :augur_!~augur@96.231.217.110 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266185366 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how that helps < 1266185378 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"vaan" and "vaa'an" are different words in finnish < 1266185385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you only pick the consonants < 1266185387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and intercalate vowels < 1266185389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that can never happen < 1266185397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think much higher information density than that is possible < 1266185409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the very least, you could store (consonant,vowel) pairs as single digits < 1266185411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The FooNumbers are based on decimal form, with the base words F/oo, B/ar, B/az, W/oo, H/oo, Sp/oo, K/ink, K/ank, K/onk for 1, 2, ... 9, respectively; and then you add "", "izz", "azz", "uzz" at the / there for 10^0, 10^1, 10^2, 10^3, respectively; and finally for multiples of 10000 you put in separator-markers Razzle, Dazzle, Giggle, Wiggle. < 1266185412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and omit awkward pairs < 1266185413 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly the system runs out at 99999999999999999999, or KuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkWiggleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkGiggleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkDazzleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonkRazzleKuzzonkKazzonkKizzonkKonk. < 1266185416 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to six it's pretty easy < 1266185419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :D < 1266185420 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266185428 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't do beeep and beep < 1266185433 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266185436 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that even < 1266185437 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1266185444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"beeeeep" and "beeep" < 1266185460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beeeeep = b, e, e, p with all intercalated vowels being e < 1266185463 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boeop and baeaeap < 1266185464 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy < 1266185468 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't intercalate all es < 1266185468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beeep = b, e, p with all intercalated vowels being e < 1266185469 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus < 1266185474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have a limited set < 1266185477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so your algorithm is more complicated < 1266185480 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or don't even intercalate vowels < 1266185482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : at the very least, you could store (consonant,vowel) pairs as single digits < 1266185483 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intercalate anything < 1266185487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jieortj < 1266185504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is meant to be pronounceable and memorable, and to minimise the risk of confusing two forms < 1266185585 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1266185727 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266185952 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ineiros_ < 1266186015 0 :ineiros!~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266186203 0 :ineiros_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266186439 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266186523 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266186802 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266186868 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266186915 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266186937 0 :adam_d__!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266186957 0 :augur_!~augur@96.231.217.110 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266187085 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266187153 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266187405 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1266187556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Talis, man. < 1266187585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.misc/msg/07f29c8ea40c35a3 is where those foo-numbers came from, though I think Giggle and Wiggle are mooz's inventions. And yes, it's not quite optimized for information density, or anything. < 1266187702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically it's the decimal system but instead of "one hundred and seventy two" you say fazzoo kizzink bar". < 1266187705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"fazzoo < 1266187764 0 :adam_d__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266187809 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, sort-of. It's not a positional system at first, the power-of-ten is indicated by the circumfix izz/azz/uzz. < 1266187872 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the English spelling isn't very positional either, though. < 1266187968 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/circumfix/interfix/, wasn't thinking. < 1266187998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or infix. < 1266188014 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's infix if it's inside a single stem, and interfix if it joins two stems. < 1266188159 0 :Libster`!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266188904 0 :Libster`!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266188941 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266189263 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266189550 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266189635 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266189702 0 :augur_!~augur@pool-74-96-29-146.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266190095 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more interesting linguistics time! < 1266190128 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1266190136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, god. < 1266190199 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as anyone can tell, it is impossible for a verb (such as "glump" in the following) to mean what its shown to mean: "X glumped Y" == "X kissed someone who is allergic to Y" < 1266190214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've been over this before. < 1266190225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's probably a limitation of the human brain's shorthand engine. < 1266190239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need the main detail to be the grammatical form, so to speak, of the shorthand. < 1266190242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise we can't remember it. < 1266190250 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, it doesnt seem to be that at all < 1266190261 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266190265 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266190267 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266190269 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the brain can encode a SHIT TONNE of things, extraordinarily complex things, in lexical semantics < 1266190272 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266190274 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266190277 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266190283 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266190286 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266190290 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266190294 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266190311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just consider what it means to cherrypick. < 1266190347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X cherrypicked Y" ~ "X carefully chose which members of Y to support his claims despite the fact that the whole of Y do not (so easily) do so" < 1266190350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1266190380 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266190388 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good complex one < 1266190465 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a conlang all of whose grammar and semantics have been proven impossible to learn < 1266190467 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best anyone can get is either that the representations for _linguistic_ meaning are of a very specific sort, and this happens to not allow "glump" < 1266190475 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is it's like a self contained action though, you go sit at your desk and cherry pick.. but glumped is one action (kissed) and a kind of reference (someone who is allergic to Y) -- so it's complex on a different level.. but it doesn't seem TOO complex < 1266190487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least an esolang < 1266190489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol lol < 1266190509 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that like, certain kinds of verbs are derived SYNTACTICALLY, and thus since the derivation is in violation of a syntactic constraint, its obviously impossible < 1266190547 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: its not really all that complex tho < 1266190554 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's the thing.. < 1266190558 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean its not unimaginable that you might have an affix like, say < 1266190562 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-phobe < 1266190564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :approximately < 1266190572 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means "person allergic to whatever" < 1266190579 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John kissed a peanutophobe" < 1266190590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "X cherrypicked Y" ~ "X carefully chose which members of Y to support his claims despite the fact that the whole of Y do not (so easily) do so" < 1266190595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant < 1266190602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its NOT irrelevant alise < 1266190604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :carefully choosing is still the 'underlying form' of cherrypicking < 1266190615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X carefully chose from Y" also makes sense, it is just not as descriptive < 1266190616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas < 1266190620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : as far as anyone can tell, it is impossible for a verb (such as "glump" in the following) to mean what its shown to mean: "X glumped Y" == "X kissed someone who is allergic to Y" < 1266190629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X kissed Y" does not make sense as a substitute for "X glumped Y" < 1266190640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, we cannot understand glumping to be kissing-but-more-specific. < 1266190642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that its a good substitute is irrelevant < 1266190646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my theory, anyway < 1266190673 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not supposed to be a substitute < 1266190685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its supposed to be a single verb with a complex meaning < 1266190699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my sample size of 2 makes me very happy tyvm :P < 1266190708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your sample size of two? < 1266190708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1266190772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, its just an interesting fact that seems to lack a good well fleshed out explanation. < 1266190786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cherrypicker fits my rule < 1266190787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glumping doesn't < 1266190791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore i am right qed < 1266190802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ilunga. < 1266190823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nominal semantics is notoriously fluid. < 1266190838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider "bean" or "pelt" < 1266190849 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to bean someone is to pelt someone on the head < 1266190863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to pelt someone is to hit someone with a thrown object < 1266190873 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subroutines < 1266190875 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266190878 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X beaned Y" = "X hit Y on the head with a thrown object" < 1266190912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what makes beaning any more a kind of hitting, while glumping isnt a kind of kissing < 1266190919 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it IS a kind of kissing < 1266190928 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all acts of glumping are acts of kissing < 1266191081 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION glumps augur < 1266191101 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you kissed alise? < 1266191102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266191191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1266191204 0 :Libster`!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266191217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I was considering it on a syntactic level < 1266191219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ^ < 1266191227 0 :Libster`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266191232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: never mind. < 1266191233 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266191279 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266191325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: considering it syntactically is kinda good actually < 1266191340 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the ideas from generative semantics is that these verbs are genuinely derived syntactically < 1266191349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. IF glump were to exist with that meaning < 1266191353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would derive it like so: < 1266191357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here I will use X <-> Y to mean "X can be replaced by Y, as long as you don't mind losing information; no incorrect information will be added": < 1266191363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cherrypicking <-> choosing carefully from < 1266191368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(glumping <-> kissing) < 1266191379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"X glumped Y" isn't a more specific form of "X kissed Y", therefore you cannot have it < 1266191383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just random hypothesis < 1266191398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure its a more specific form of kissing < 1266191403 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're doing the equating wrong < 1266191410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X CAN be replaced by Y < 1266191415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're not choosing the right Y < 1266191436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glumping <-> kissing someone allergic to < 1266191451 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266191466 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allergic to what, kissing? :P < 1266191471 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's like mean kissing < 1266191474 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :allergic to whatever is being glumped. < 1266191486 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you glump peanuts, you kiss someone allerging to peanuts < 1266191518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: but Y is being hit, it's not being kissed < 1266191543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is true, and that might be relevant < 1266191567 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but seriously, you're making me want to study linguistics with your crazy kids-can't-learn-this stories < 1266191568 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we dont know how to specify that in the theory because there are minor examples where that DOESNT seem to be relevant < 1266191570 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1266191604 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you sing as you're leaving a party, you can arguably say that you sang your way out of the party < 1266191626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're certainly not singing a path, you're singing a song < 1266191661 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the GS account was that its an entirely syntactic process < 1266191665 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you sing in such a way that the vibrations created by your singing resonate in such a pattern that they physically lift you and carry you out of a party, then you unquestionably have sung your way out of the party. < 1266191687 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but youre still not singing the PATH you're singing the SONG < 1266191688 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or your singing is so bad that you're thrown out < 1266191690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which CREATED the path < 1266191723 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to sing a PATH you'd have to like... try to sing, and out of your mouth comes a path through the crowd of people, like your mouth spews emptiness or something < 1266191788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<augur> you're doing the equating wrong < 1266191788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<augur> X CAN be replaced by Y < 1266191788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<augur> but you're not choosing the right Y < 1266191788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<augur> glumping <-> kissing someone allergic to < 1266191789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXACTLY < 1266191792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main part of cherry picking < 1266191796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is choosing carefully from < 1266191799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main semantic part of glumping < 1266191801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is kissing < 1266191803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the allergic part is a detail < 1266191809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we can't replace it directly with kissing < 1266191817 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no the main semantic part of glumping is kissing someone allergic to < 1266191856 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, really, cherrypicking isnt actually choosing carefully from < 1266191865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : If you sing in such a way that the vibrations created by your singing resonate in such a pattern that they physically lift you and carry you out of a party, then you unquestionably have sung your way out of the party. < 1266191866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loool < 1266191873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its choosing something (the cherrypicked thing) from some other set of things < 1266191873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yes, but someone who is cherrypicking is choosing carefully from something < 1266191877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't convey the full meaning < 1266191879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cherrypick your examples from your data < 1266191879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not untrue < 1266191898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., an acceptable substitution is one which reduces meaning, but does not result in falsity < 1266191902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor is it untrue to say that glumping = kissing someone allergic to! < 1266191953 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266192021 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also consider the fact that its entirely possible to have an INTRANSITIVE verb, lets say blump < 1266192022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such that < 1266192044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if john is blumping, then john is kissing someone allergic to peanuts < 1266192134 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is making allergen an argument to the verb < 1266192209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lojban does that all the time btw < 1266192215 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blumping? < 1266192221 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i mean < 1266192222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i blump all the time too! < 1266192224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266192257 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well me too, but i mean most lojban verbs have all sorts of args, and you can cherrypick any subset of them to use < 1266192262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that we're abusing that term < 1266192267 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266192288 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also consider that like < 1266192291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1266192305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's the same thing, even if you put "fo" before the argument to say "this is not the usual argument you'd see here" < 1266192307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"john blumped mary" cannot mean "john kissed mary, who is allergic to peanuts" < 1266192341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it could mean "john kissed mary, making her allergic to peanuts" < 1266192341 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well see, having an overt marker like 'fo' is different < 1266192347 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is? < 1266192348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really want a language which cannot express statements that are false in logic < 1266192350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because its essentially just an argument < 1266192350 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1266192362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. not just a mere declaration "X is syntactically invalid", just that it is impossible to formulate. < 1266192364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is such a thing possible? < 1266192370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that the word itself, with no option for a marker < 1266192373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess not; the syntax would need to have magic knowledge of every proof. < 1266192383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sure it is < 1266192384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you could encode the proof into the syntactic structure, perhaps. < 1266192410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would only work for some certain kind of falsity < 1266192413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. mathematical falsity < 1266192415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or contradictions < 1266192443 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such a language would be, for instance, the language of all non-contradictions in logic < 1266192468 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really just logic. < 1266192476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a consistent one, anyway. < 1266192490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye, but syntactically < 1266192492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in logic, I can say < 1266192495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p & ~p < 1266192499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's untrue, but I can formulate it < 1266192507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could declare "any false statement is a syntax error", but I mean rather in the sense < 1266192510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can formulate it, if by formulate you mean "write the symbols" < 1266192511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you thought of p & ~p < 1266192517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and followed the normal process of logical expression -> language < 1266192519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would run into a dead end < 1266192522 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but p & ~p CANNOT be formulated from the AXIOMS of your logic < 1266192529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write the symbols, yes < 1266192531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I mean < 1266192540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of just saying < 1266192542 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but your axioms happen to be nothing more than the grammar of some higher order language < 1266192543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false things are syntax errors < 1266192548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be < 1266192553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the algorithm for logic statement -> language < 1266192556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you feed it a false statement < 1266192561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without any special checks for that; < 1266192567 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but alise, my point is < 1266192568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. it doesn't do | ifFalse x = lolerror) < 1266192571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just runs into a dead end < 1266192573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and goes all _|_ < 1266192589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be the ultimate rationalist's language < 1266192607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a consistent logic is merely a particular sort of grammar < 1266192617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One would simply be unable to express any false thought in it; all that is said will be either true, or nonsense in the same way that "If the ;fdg" is in English. < 1266192623 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what logic is, after all, a grammar for a particular language < 1266192634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but is it practical to define such a language? < 1266192640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could humans learn it, even if communication in it would be slow? < 1266192643 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it wouldnt be possible for a human to learn < 1266192644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and possibly require translation) < 1266192648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. not really learn < 1266192652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but memorise the algorithm to speak in it < 1266192681 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its possible for people to consciously learn pretty much anything < 1266192685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesnt make it language < 1266192718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because i can speak in lisp doesnt mean that my brain is treating lisp remotely like its treating english < 1266192740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't consciously learn to fly tho < 1266192753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is true. < 1266192755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really want to become fluent in a programming language < 1266192763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe people can be fluent in Perl; nay, I believe people /are/ fluent in Perl. < 1266192775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the entire range of Perl programs, just like most English speakers aren't poets. < 1266192777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like they are with a natural language < 1266192779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a good subset of it. < 1266192783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Why not? Perl is close. < 1266192804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say "Hello, world" if $appliance->on; < 1266192812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say "Hello, world" if the appliance's on. < 1266192824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1266192825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know about perl, but python is certainly easier to speak in than natural languages, there's just a slight lack of vocabulary < 1266192841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats a) a subset, and b) not exactly underived FROM a natural language < 1266192852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Languages borrow from each other. < 1266192857 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in python, you never have to think, you just start typing < 1266192871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but being fluent in a programming language thats derived from a natural language isnt really all that interesting, is it < 1266192891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while ($appliance->on) { say for @todo_list } < 1266192909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While the appliance's on, speak for each item in todo list. < 1266192916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yes it is < 1266192918 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're not really fluent in the programming language < 1266192922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means you can express your thoughts to the computer incredibly naturally < 1266192929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its more that the computer is fluent in that (subset) of your natural language. < 1266192931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Perlists seem to be incredibly good with their idioms < 1266192949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure you can claim outright that nobody is fluent in a useful, common subset of PErl. < 1266192951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Perl < 1266192957 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but the point is that those idioms are parasitic on your pre-existing competence in english < 1266192964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The differences between it and natural languages aren't that big. < 1266192966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Of course. < 1266192973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're still /different/. < 1266192979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1266192996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they were invented idioms of the same general lax form, I bet you could learn it to a similar degree of fluency; with tens to hundreds of times the effort, yes. < 1266192998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if theyre different in ways that arent impossible in natural language, all you've done is become fluent in a natural language that happens to not be natural. < 1266193009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But just as you can learn English idioms, idioms of the same form are learnable too, whether they're in a programming language or not. < 1266193012 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real question is could someone be fluent in something like Forth < 1266193016 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is decidedly unnatural < 1266193029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is SOV really that unnatural < 1266193035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it OSV, dunno < 1266193037 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not that Forth is SOV < 1266193041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 3 - => 2 - 3 < 1266193042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so SOV < 1266193042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its that forth is stack oriented < 1266193054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOV languages are by far the most common < 1266193059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: good Forth has a small stack, though. < 1266193071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and never does thing ............... verb < 1266193074 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. in principle it could be arbitrarily large < 1266193079 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in _principle_ anyway < 1266193088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can write sentences that mention a thing, go on a million tangents, then continue talking about that thing in english too < 1266193093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't mean fluency in english is impossible < 1266193105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh. example < 1266193152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266193214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, its not like you dont get big constructions like that in natural language, right. SOV languages notoriously have deeply nested things like that. but what im talking about is GENUINELY stack oriented. not merely SOV with large things between the S/O and the V < 1266193217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The oranges, which were the cause of a gross incident in 1794 when Tom, who was a rat in a band primarily targeted towards the 8-12 horse-lover market, died after eating one that looked incredibly delicious, though this was in fact unwise as the turtles that pooped them out actually made sure they were poisonous, as they positively hated turtles, though, of course, Tom was completely oblivious to this fact when he digested them, were eaten. < 1266193246 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. with stack operations like swap, rotate, duplicate, etc. < 1266193257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rot is bad Forth style < 1266193266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Lojban has things similar to swap and rot < 1266193271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266193272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dup < 1266193272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps. i wasnt using forth itself as a good example of this. < 1266193276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can specify argument position and I'm sure you can say "again" for an argument) < 1266193286 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is that genuine stack orientedness seems VERY difficult for people to grasp < 1266193295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think if Forth's vocabulary was about the world rather than a computer, it would be possible to be fluent in it. < 1266193325 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt seem to be the case, however. < 1266193338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannibals their species members dup eat do < 1266193350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266193352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me rewrite that < 1266193361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dup itself actually wouldnt be enormously complicated, to be honest < 1266193367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannibals their species members dup eat are-those-that < 1266193369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just kinda like very local reflexivity < 1266193378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errr < 1266193378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like < 1266193380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is hard < 1266193383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their species members dup eat < 1266193392 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannibals species their members dup eat < 1266193397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Members of their species eat members of their species" < 1266193402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: right < 1266193412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also note that idiomatic forth actually reads in english style :) < 1266193420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, SVO < 1266193424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the typical style of coding < 1266193438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if japanese idiomatic forth reads more SOV < 1266193449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think anyone writes japanese idiomatic forth < 1266193454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunate. < 1266193459 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would bet it doesnt look like SOV at all. < 1266193465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think the vocab shapes it < 1266193466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lang < 1266193467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1266193476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SVO presumably has properties that make implementation, and the use of it, superior < 1266193478 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better question tho is whether or not such a limitation would be because of MEMORY or because of grammar < 1266193483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise forthers would just accept the rpn; they do for arithmetic < 1266193490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway dup would be useful in everyday speech < 1266193493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1266193498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we sort of DO have dupe < 1266193499 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dup < 1266193503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its called a reflexive < 1266193510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I read it and dup and dup, but I still didn't understand it." < 1266193520 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266193550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in forth, < 1266193557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i it read dup and dup and < 1266193561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats the dup's doing there tho < 1266193567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., you get i-read-it on the stack, then you get i-read-it i-read-it < 1266193569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you and it < 1266193573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i-read-it-and-i-read-it < 1266193575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and again < 1266193577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i-read-it-and-i-read-it-and-i-read-it < 1266193578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1266193582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I read it and read it and read it, but I still didn't understand it." < 1266193585 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266193605 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you'd have four readings < 1266193607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever < 1266193616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1266193627 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you're duping "i-read-it-and-i-read-it" < 1266193631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes < 1266193634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever < 1266193635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway < 1266193644 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266193652 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, why would dup duplicated the whole stack < 1266193656 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can SORT of do that < 1266193661 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*duplicate < 1266193662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: its not the whole stack < 1266193665 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then < 1266193670 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would it concatenate its result < 1266193672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1266193672 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its the top most syntactic object, which is a conjunction in this case < 1266193678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, according to ehird. < 1266193685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the why have a stack < 1266193687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*alise < 1266193687 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway < 1266193691 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*then < 1266193696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: for multiple values < 1266193700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranges sam ate < 1266193702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranges < 1266193703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oranges sam < 1266193704 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean < 1266193706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sam-ate-oranges < 1266193708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like OSV < 1266193712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's poetic. :P < 1266193718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, I know, don't start) < 1266193720 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we do sort of have dup < 1266193726 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that you have reflexives < 1266193730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if dup is o => o+o instead of o => o, o; that's just not very stacky < 1266193733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: like? < 1266193736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "john hit himself" ~ john dup hit < 1266193737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: dup is o => o o < 1266193745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it i read dup and < 1266193745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266193746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it < 1266193747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it i < 1266193748 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1266193750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i-read-it < 1266193752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i-read-it i-read-it < 1266193753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you clearly aren't following this conversation < 1266193754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i-read-it-and-i-read-it < 1266193772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, some languages mark reflexivity on the verb < 1266193780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is a marker essentially like < 1266193787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :john duphit < 1266193788 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266193801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack oriented is easy to read if you actively visualize everything < 1266193819 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except reflexivity is extraordinarily flexible in what can be reflexivized < 1266193829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean actually visualize a stack of those objects < 1266193839 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: thats exactly the point < 1266193846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to visualize this shit to understand it < 1266193854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is NOT the case with natural language < 1266193865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont have to even THINK about what someone says to just understand it < 1266193869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure i do < 1266193878 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you dont, stop being obstinate < 1266193880 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i often have to translate sentences to logic < 1266193885 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use inference rules < 1266193887 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no seriously < 1266193897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: when will you realise that *oklopol* *is* *not* *human* < 1266193898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just get ove rit < 1266193900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*over it < 1266193908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't make your rules apply to him just because you say they do < 1266193912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :P < 1266193917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your theory works on humans, not oklopol < 1266193919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give up < 1266193930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol just likes being contrarian < 1266193930 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean sure, sometimes i can read sentences without thinking, just like i can sometimes read code or math without thinking < 1266193948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but just as often, i need to do some intermediate steps < 1266193951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I'm pretty sure his cognitive structure is different to most people's. < 1266193954 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :little does he realize how little he actually knows about what is going on in his mind < 1266193960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266193975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I've never found anyone with the same configuration, so I hereby deem it oklism. < 1266194019 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1266194046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: little does he realize how little he actually knows about what is going on in his mind" <<< this is very insulting < 1266194063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed < 1266194083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no, its just a fact. humans are barely aware of whats actually going on in their brains. < 1266194084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think augur is a bit too certain of the universal applicability of mainstream linguistics < 1266194094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if oklopol reads a sentence, can't understand it < 1266194096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translates it to logic < 1266194098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and understands it < 1266194102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not saying that doesnt happen < 1266194104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then his brain clearly didn't understand it until that happened < 1266194114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that happens plenty for lots of people < 1266194117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's also a fact i often need to translate sentences to logic, very explicitly, to see what they mean. < 1266194134 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i actually visualize the simplification of the sentence < 1266194137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you didnt translate the sentence you just said FROM logic into english. < 1266194148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor the one i just said INTO logic < 1266194158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said often < 1266194159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not always < 1266194164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats the point! < 1266194164 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i didn't, i don't always have to do that, just like i usually don't have to think about what python line to write, or how to manipulate some algebraic expression. < 1266194177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1266194187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this is stupid < 1266194191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I could be more like oklopol i would < 1266194193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...up to a certain point < 1266194229 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's very stupid to tell me how i think. < 1266194233 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266194243 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its very stupid to think you know how you think :P < 1266194252 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, did you get those pictures, or is that irrelevant now? < 1266194254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :words to live by < 1266194259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: it's probably irrelevant for now < 1266194261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but it's not stupid of me to tell you facts about how i think. < 1266194272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you dont KNOW the facts about how you think < 1266194274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't claim to understand it < 1266194274 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the point < 1266194283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's oklopol, he's not human anyway < 1266194283 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "the facts", some facts < 1266194302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266194329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : augur: when will you realise that *oklopol* *is* *not* *human* < 1266194329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : just get ove rit < 1266194329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : *over it < 1266194329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can't make your rules apply to him just because you say they do < 1266194329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: :P < 1266194330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : your theory works on humans, not oklopol < 1266194331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : give up < 1266194334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: he didn't listen < 1266194339 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: oklopol, you didnt translate the sentence you just said FROM logic into english." <<< i usually picture an arrow from logic to english to see what way the objects map < 1266194342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( augur: I'm pretty sure his cognitive structure is different to most people's. Although I've never found anyone with the same configuration, so I hereby deem it oklism.) < 1266194360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANYWAY < 1266194363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hey i didn't remember you saying that < 1266194367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a stupid thing to talk about. < 1266194371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I said it just before you came in. :P < 1266194376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clearly he now has it from two _independent_ sources < 1266194376 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, it is stupid, stop it < 1266194388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's _science_, bitch < 1266194405 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're right, it is. and science has shown that people dont have a fucking clue whats going on in their heads. < 1266194412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I was oklistic < 1266194416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they THINK they do < 1266194418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no, i mean that oklopol isn't human < 1266194423 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :P < 1266194434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should set up the Society for the Study and Recognition of Oklism < 1266194448 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really believe much of science, i just believe in individual studies. < 1266194454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on our website under Experiments will be conversation snippets from oklopol < 1266194472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual science is how researchers interpreted the stuff, i want to make my own interpretations. < 1266194473 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today i went to a linguistics talk < 1266194476 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a PLENARY talk < 1266194477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which < 1266194480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the examples < 1266194496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're such a fangirl :D < 1266194510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit it's late < 1266194518 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the examples was < 1266194524 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i swear, this is quoted directly from the handout < 1266194543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When he came, his semen short circuited the sander and electrocuted him dead" < 1266194544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: totally < 1266194558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: hahaha what < 1266194564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266194574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fucking swear < 1266194591 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you shouldve seen the stuff that was common back in the generative semantics days < 1266194613 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a transformational grammar rule called the Euphemistic Genital Deletion rule < 1266194619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266194628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly this was from the olden days, when men were real men, women were real women, and sex was fucking dangerous < 1266194635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which took sentences like "John's penis was too big to fit into Mary's vagina" and turned it into "John was too big for Mary" < 1266194642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Grinder's Apparel Pronoun Deletion (for the syntactic behavior f certain sentences concerning disrobing)" < 1266194644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what. < 1266194651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :D < 1266194655 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266194660 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION had to visualize that situation to understand the sentence < 1266194664 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266194668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess also i should stop this < 1266194672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just you < 1266194675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, are you too big for me? < 1266194676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::X < 1266194686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, there were also shit tonnes of references to drugs and politics < 1266194690 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really i think i'm just retarded < 1266194696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you're just a nerd < 1266194696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what about hugs < 1266194700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where there any references to hugs < 1266194705 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's too into being a nerd < 1266194705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*were < 1266194708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, no hugs < 1266194717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't think oklopol thinks a leetle bit differently from the average human being? < 1266194728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his esolangs and `quote should be rather sufficient evidence for that < 1266194735 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266194742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...as well as his university career < 1266194751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote oklopol < 1266194753 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :48| i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 50| < 1266194757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote oklopol < 1266194758 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :48| i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 50| < 1266194762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stupid HackEgo < 1266194771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://209.20.80.194/sgeo/quotes.txt < 1266194782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: maybe hes a wee aspy, but honestly, not really. he comes off like a typical "TEEHEE IM A NERD IVE GOT OCD OMG IM ADDICTED TO CAFFEINE TEEHEE SO NERDY" nerd < 1266194788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :91| actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge < 1266194791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: he's right here, you know < 1266194793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're being a jerk < 1266194794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only hes smarter when it comes to his pseudoailments < 1266194808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen oklopol describe himself as having some ailment; ever. < 1266194813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at least, not a mental one. < 1266194821 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and youll never see a nerd describe his "ocd" as an ailment either < 1266194825 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats irrelevant. < 1266194838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, hes a big boy, im sure he can handle some mild criticism. < 1266194858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i think this is the point where you demolish him intellectually and he feels terribly small < 1266194862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QUICK < 1266194863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266194871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hey, if John went to Chicago, that means we'll soon have a big supply of dope." < 1266194879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another sentence from the good old Generative Semantics days < 1266194892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Ate dog food? WTF? < 1266194923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it tastes like porridge i see no problem < 1266194930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Nixon, you imperialist butcher, take your lunatic Secretary of Defence and shove him up your ass" < 1266194934 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266194970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also 53| anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true should put that on my todo list < 1266194977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has subconsciously classified oklopol as the sanest person on this channel, actually. admittedly my classifications may not be reliable. < 1266194991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's so sane he wrapped around again < 1266194994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and again, a few more times < 1266194997 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: lol. < 1266195016 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know im kinda into bdsm? as in, whipping. < 1266195026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't need to know. < 1266195027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::Ds < 1266195031 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: :D < 1266195039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, really, we have no requirement for that knowledge. whatsoever < 1266195041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't _know_, but i was in no way _surprised_ < 1266195049 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266195067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think he interpreted your statement as innuendo. < 1266195071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so perhaps i knew, subconsciously < 1266195079 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oklopol? Really? Until you made that claim, I would have said /you/ were amongst the sanest people on this channel. < 1266195087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god I'm such a genius < 1266195091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, just had a bout of egotism there < 1266195093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happens occasionally < 1266195103 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: EgoBot forgives you. < 1266195116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how genius is egobot < 1266195120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: hm < 1266195133 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I'd term you one of the sanest. < 1266195138 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pah < 1266195139 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonsense < 1266195140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm not entirely sure how. < 1266195158 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before oerjan thinking oklopol sane, I would have termed him the sanest. :P < 1266195224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where am I sanity-wise < 1266195228 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: oklopol, are you too big for me?" <<< yeah i doubt my penis would fit in your penis < 1266195254 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: we could try < 1266195274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not nerdy < 1266195290 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think thats the most false thing ive ever heard. < 1266195296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hypothesis: sanity does not travel well over irc < 1266195298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol isn't a nerd < 1266195308 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nerd, geek, i use them interchangably < 1266195322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he has a sex life (or has been lying to us consistently), he tends to have a negative opinion of coding < 1266195327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, the reason i usually don't tell people i'm mad is because everyone does it < 1266195328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely not a computer geek, mathematics geek maybe < 1266195328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: insufficient data for meaningful answer < 1266195335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his esolangs always tend towards the theoretical, so < 1266195336 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFK < 1266195345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/gs.pdf < 1266195347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't remember him showing any ginormous enthusiasm to CS < 1266195348 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i just occasionally mention facts about my life, it's equally fun, i love sharing < 1266195350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess maths nerd < 1266195352 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case anyones interested in the Generative Semantics program < 1266195365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is the sanest here, probably, but he's also boring and orthodox and wrong. < 1266195368 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i don't really think i can demolish people intellectually < 1266195372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1266195375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... i said that years ago < 1266195376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266195391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor is probably the second-sanest, and is vastly superior by way of being actually interesting and not hideously wrong about everything < 1266195398 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think insanity just carries much more funnily over IRC < 1266195424 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sanity is boring, that's what < 1266195426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: what a ridiculous hypothesis -----### < 1266195489 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ridiculous? how? < 1266195511 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i don't think i have ocd, i have the ability to get interested in whatever i want, so i can simulate ocd is i find that necessary. < 1266195515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't understand that i'll have to drown you in tomato sauce. spicy. < 1266195518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: right but Gregor is a sane, normal person he's just intelligent and has weird ideas < 1266195522 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just a skill i've spent thousands of hours developing. < 1266195535 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i dont think you have ocd either. i was just using that as an example of the _typical_ geek "fake ailment" < 1266195536 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...okay that came out wrong < 1266195542 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what she said < 1266195551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is a sane, normal person and sure okay he has intelligence but his ideas are boring and he doesn't seem to be able to think of really interesting ones < 1266195559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno how you'd quantify the different, it isn't sanity < 1266195560 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: how would that even work < 1266195563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of her, hows 2tullia? < 1266195566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, don't answer < 1266195568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe... creativity but on the oddness axis < 1266195570 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how would what even work? X < 1266195571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266195628 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm also not addicted to coffee, just caffeine, and i definitely love addictions < 1266195653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1266195688 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really none of what you said is true of me, but probably i do sound like exactly how you described me < 1266195688 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i wish my lag was a few minutes less. < 1266195697 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm definitely getting/gotten stuck on my new esolang... < 1266195711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Gregor's actually somewhat eccentric. < 1266195732 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i didnt say YOU portrayed yourself as having OCD or a coffee addiction < 1266195737 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i specifically said you DIDNT < 1266195751 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said you portray yourself with similarly geeky "quirks" < 1266195771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg "lol i have to translate into higher order predicate logic to understand you lololol" < 1266195782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is an exageration of what you said but you get the point < 1266195799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: presumably he can function normally in society < 1266195800 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe I should just make it turing complete, release it and leave it for the rest of the world to figure out how to do IO with it... but that seems kind of boring < 1266195801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the hat thing < 1266195808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i do like telling people how mad i am, but it's not so much that i want to separate myself from others or anything, i just love sharing personal details, especially all sorts of craziness, which i'm very enthusiastic about, in both directions < 1266195809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: what is it? < 1266195811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell us < 1266195843 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: enthusiasm about ones presumed madnesses is a typical geek trait. which is the point. :| < 1266195852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "Eccentric" does not mean "cannot function normally". < 1266195873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean < 1266195875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Means things like "has a fondness for hats" or "has a fondness for a soda that can't be easily found outside of Maine". < 1266195877 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: fun with making input and output harder instead of (or in addition to) making the actual computation hard < 1266195887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes but I wouldn't consider those in any way related to real insanity < 1266195901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which I don't mean literally not being sane, but being really crazy < 1266195901 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266195903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. I'm not saying he's insane in any way. < 1266195906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is crazy, Gregor isn't < 1266195910 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just mildly eccentric. < 1266196092 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to figure out just how hard I actually made it, but it looks like a 'cat' program is around O(n^2.3) in input size (that's with C-code and MPFR and GMP doing the computation, doing it by hand in some turing tarpit would probably be a lot slower) < 1266196163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'm not really especially enthusiastic in my own madness < 1266196163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact definitely more interesting in others < 1266196175 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, i get your point < 1266196296 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have exactly the same characteristics as a generic own-geekiness-loving geek has. and maybe i have them for the same reasons every other geek has. really i'm just correcting your details because i dislike you telling me these facts, because they are annoying. < 1266196318 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something along those lines < 1266196333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, those "details" were explicitly stated as being NOT facts about YOU < 1266196355 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, yeah, and i guess i misinterpreted them. < 1266196362 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean misinterpreted the sentence < 1266196380 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, obviously. < 1266196381 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this lag makes it sorta hard to pay attention < 1266196419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wait, the ping _says_ 19 seconds but the response was _actually_ immediate < 1266196419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lag, or drugs < 1266196433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not lagged to me < 1266196438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: his computer is high. < 1266196447 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, i have to correct something, because i can't correct your impression of me. < 1266196458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266196460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well i think you're a beautiful snowflake. < 1266196480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think oklopol is a hot piece of manmeat < 1266196499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear i'm pretty hot when i've showered recently < 1266196500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not significantly lagged to augur either < 1266196518 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, i demant photographic proof < 1266196520 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of which, she's fine, currently visiting her parents and works with some dude with MS < 1266196535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266196536 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a weird sentence < 1266196541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two different facts about her < 1266196547 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if either is very relevant < 1266196596 0 :blagobu!~blagobu@modemcable004.220-203-24.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1266196608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since she hadn't been previously mentioned, you know < 1266196609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266196614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was weird about it is the tense mismatch < 1266196618 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure she had < 1266196621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its actually ungrammatically < 1266196622 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, Hackiki is just a little over three months old. < 1266196623 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1266196625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ungrammatical. < 1266196629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not recently < 1266196637 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I neglected to celebrate its 1/4th-year anniversary :P < 1266196678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you're mom is ungrammatical < 1266196684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she often is < 1266196693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as is "you're mom is ungrammatical" < 1266196694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you'll be _so_ sorry for that when it develops sapience < 1266196696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266196703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol just likes to rub his wimmen lyfe into our faeces < 1266196704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er faces < 1266196709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was /so/ a typo < 1266196716 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh I doubt it :P < 1266196726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: are you /sure/ you understood Creating Friendly AI < 1266196739 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who ever said it was supposed to be friendly? < 1266196744 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA < 1266196746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, dear < 1266196754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least we'll have all the paperclips we could possibly want < 1266196759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, "we" will be an empty set < 1266196804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paperclips is _so_ last cataclysm < 1266196836 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"alise: oklopol just likes to rub his wimmen lyfe into our faeces" <<< i keep talking about my gf, but really i try not to, it's just i don't really have much else to say in conversations, because i have gf and i have uni stuff. < 1266196836 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's another stereotype i seriously try to fight being < 1266196836 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy who always talks about his gf < 1266196837 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just have no life outside her < 1266196840 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well except here and at uni i can talk about other stuff often < 1266196846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc9l7pygQRo < 1266196848 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great music < 1266196851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucked up video < 1266196856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it gitten rape < 1266196857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Life? < 1266196859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*kitten < 1266196861 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess i'm not that guy here, but irl i often feel like i am < 1266196867 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this "social life" of which you speak. < 1266196868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: wait you're always inside her? < 1266196879 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My social life seriously consists of IM and IRC. < 1266196885 0 :blagobu!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266196903 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: do you really talk about 2tuulia much?? < 1266196906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont notice this. < 1266196922 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? cool < 1266196926 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol has a girlfriend? < 1266196959 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266196979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has he ever not had a girlfriend < 1266196988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought i mention my gf all the time, probably i'm just paranoid < 1266196988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, we've lived together for 1.5 years < 1266196988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe i don't talk about her *that much*. < 1266197012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprisingly rarely < 1266197022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh i thought it was probably a new one < 1266197028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, oklopol, surely you can't do the same thing for like < 1266197030 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't know that. i didn't have a gf like half of high school < 1266197031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than a few hours < 1266197032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh cool < 1266197035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unintentional innuendo < 1266197036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am rad < 1266197052 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just casual sex with my ex < 1266197087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, can we have casual sex? :D < 1266197090 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION never had a gf < 1266197109 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really have sex with dudes < 1266197122 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you should start < 1266197140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: boo hoo < 1266197141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't really have a reason not to try it < 1266197143 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially with me. < 1266197144 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that guys are ugly < 1266197148 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i don't really have sex with dudes, only in my imagination < 1266197149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not! < 1266197151 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /me is fully willing to have sex with a female who once was a dude < 1266197169 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo is a modern, 21st century man. < 1266197187 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yeah but i can't have sex with myself < 1266197196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: clones. < 1266197200 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1266197207 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm fully willing to have sex with a woman who was once a man, or a man who was once a woman, or a frog who was once a prince." < 1266197207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :send in the clones < 1266197221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: that a quote? < 1266197229 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :D < 1266197235 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not of somebody, I just wanted to make it clear that frog sex was not my statement :P < 1266197237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i've gotten most of my girlfriends by essentially stalking them and constantly telling them they're pretty (well except for the three longer relationships i've had :P) < 1266197249 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, there's a good tip < 1266197266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tip: dont stalk girls < 1266197268 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously. < 1266197269 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, they were only girlfriends in your mind then :P < 1266197275 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Stalk guys instead < 1266197294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Lie about what people say < 1266197305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: entirely true. < 1266197319 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Pretty much. < 1266197327 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sockpuppetting is fun! < 1266197378 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only have sex with femaly frogs < 1266197381 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*female < 1266197383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :本当に! < 1266197394 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"femaly" < 1266197397 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a prince would turn into a male frog right? < 1266197397 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, female enough. < 1266197411 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably? < 1266197426 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Male and female frogs both have cloacas, so who cares :P < 1266197440 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just about to ask about their genitals < 1266197461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :biology is not one of my strongest subjects < 1266197492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nonmammalian genitalia are unusual. < 1266197502 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That was a dumb statement :P < 1266197512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: dont deny it, dudes are sexful. < 1266197512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they're not, they're the majority < 1266197533 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I was on this quiz bowl thing at school, and we were practicing. One of the questions was about some hormone. So I answered "Reproductive system" < 1266197546 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I pride myself on dumb statements. < 1266197556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /me is fully willing to have sex with a female who once was a dude < 1266197560 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Trust $name to know all about the reproductive system. The female reproductive system" < 1266197562 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yes i do < 1266197567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transvaginas tend to be much less sensitive than the real thing iirc < 1266197574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can settle for penor i guess that's acceptable < 1266197594 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want penor < 1266197605 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? XD < 1266197609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION flops on oklopols lap < 1266197617 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This conversation is so much bizarre :P < 1266197636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well tough for you. You have penor. < 1266197645 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did someone say penor? < 1266197648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you're not about to remove it. < 1266197649 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266197649 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: is that one of those complicated verbs? < 1266197650 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Not for long! < 1266197656 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: THAT drags you out of idle-land? :P < 1266197657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no. its one of those simple ones. < 1266197665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define penor < 1266197667 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Kyabj Drubwang Pema Norbu Rinpoche (1932 - March 27, 2009) was the 11th throne holder of the Palyul Lineage of the Nyingma school of Tibetan ... \ [15]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penor \ < 1266197670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me translate it into first order predicate logic for you < 1266197676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curses < 1266197689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you like a full derivation of the first order logic form, or do you just want the truth conditions, oklopol? < 1266197689 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yeah, i've got a highlight on it < 1266197728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: lol think i'm some sorta noob? latter < 1266197741 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Wow :P < 1266197842 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignoring tense and so forth, ∃x:augur(x)[ ∃y:oklopol(y)[ ∃e[flopping(e) & agent(e,x) & theme(e,y) ]]] < 1266197861 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats also ignoring the possibility of a verb decomposition < 1266197866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a not so tense conversation < 1266197883 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its also neglecting possible worlds and so forth. < 1266197904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the weird character? < 1266197914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists? < 1266197919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266197925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transpenor is pretty rubbish iirc < 1266197932 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266197946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: do your liberal sensitivities outweigh your limited sexual prospects with transpeople> < 1266197947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**? < 1266197948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*? < 1266197949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266197950 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, true, but thats ok. transboy cunts can still be fun. especially transboy clit. < 1266197966 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see. that does indeed explain the concept quite well < 1266197969 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my < 1266197971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are you okay with fucking a man with a cunt. < 1266198003 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if I could pretend e was a girl, probably. But that would be unfair to em < 1266198017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in conclusion, your sexual prospects with a transperson are pretty much nil. < 1266198027 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Double-u tee ef guys. < 1266198029 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously. < 1266198032 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Double-u tee ef. < 1266198044 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you mean double-ewe? < 1266198055 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in having two ewes? < 1266198056 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Idonno, I have no idea how to spell 'U' < 1266198066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what < 1266198071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we got bored of gay sex, we're just being more esoteric < 1266198082 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did someone say gay sex? < 1266198084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bored of gay sex? NONSENSE < 1266198086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I did. < 1266198127 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: are you okay with fucking a man who has a female nick? < 1266198142 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: X-D < 1266198162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Are you okay with fucking a man while having a female nick? < 1266198172 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: who's having the female nick? D: < 1266198182 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not ok with fucking anyone who's underage < 1266198185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: "you" < 1266198192 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's not the question. < 1266198194 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok. < 1266198194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: provide me with a vagina and certainly. my anus is a tender, holy thing, emitting light, pristine in its every aspect. also, I am 14 < 1266198200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just had to maximise the awkwardness of that sentence < 1266198202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1266198214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Emitting light? < 1266198215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could probably have sex with a man with a female name, but nick i dunno < 1266198217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: emitting light. < 1266198218 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impressive. < 1266198218 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That was pretty maximally awkward ... < 1266198224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: thank you! < 1266198234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checking that you werent using a weird dangling modifier < 1266198236 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be illegal cuz she's just 14 < 1266198250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the vatican < 1266198259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in Japan. < 1266198261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i think homosex is illegal there < 1266198262 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the age of consent in norway? < 1266198287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'd be gentle < 1266198288 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so so gentle < 1266198305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I suspect having *sex* is illegal there. < 1266198317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WANTED TO SHOW YOU SUCH... TENDERNESS < 1266198317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that the priests aren't supposed to have it, and everyone else would be having sex in public. < 1266198321 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yeah cuz catholics don't have sex < 1266198335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Catholic priests aren't supposed to. < 1266198336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless theyre making babies. < 1266198336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: aren't there... houses < 1266198342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is an age of consent anyway < 1266198348 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vatican is a whole city, isn't it? < 1266198355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: it's a very, very small city < 1266198355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: 16 < 1266198364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.44 km^2 < 1266198365 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: It's a few buildings in the middle of Rome. < 1266198367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pop 826 < 1266198409 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1266198412 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to move to norden < 1266198477 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, non-priests in the Vatican don't have homes? < 1266198478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1266198497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :norway, sweden or denmark would be nice. < 1266198515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: There are two types of Vatican citizens. < 1266198521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clergy and the Swiss Guard. < 1266198570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Swiss Guard do not reside in the Vatican. < 1266198597 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Citta_del_Vaticano.svg < 1266198618 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bsmntborden < 1266198668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the Swiss Guard are required to be single men. < 1266198687 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to have sex in the vatican < 1266198702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if they cease this, they cease to be Swiss Guard, and thus cease to be Vatican citizens. If they have no other citizenship, they immediately become Italian citizens) < 1266198735 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I thought the Swiss Guard were, in fact, Swiss. < 1266198765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes. < 1266198789 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how would they accomplish losing their Swiss citizenship while still being Swiss Guard at the Vatican? :P < 1266198790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: By being employed in that service, they become Vatican. < 1266198803 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No dual Swiss-Vatican citizenship eh < 1266198813 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of my childhood dreams < 1266198815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's the norm. < 1266198821 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY GF wants to move to norway < 1266198823 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: kind of a lame dream < 1266198827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just there as a contingency. < 1266198832 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1266198843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a Vatican citizen ceases to be a citizen, and has no other citizenship, they are now Italian. < 1266198850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. Vatican as a nationality. < 1266198856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I am a Vatican." < 1266198858 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/Akq2G.jpg < 1266198862 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants to go to iceland < 1266198911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i was out eating and there was this man talking to an imaginary woman, he'd actually ordered food for her and asked me where the female wc cuz she had to pee < 1266198938 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i didn't know he had an imaginary gf when he asked about the wc so i wasn't sure i should tell him :P) < 1266198958 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, no, yes, yes, yes < 1266198962 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, no, yes, no, no < 1266199030 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ive started smoking shisha < 1266199040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(cappuccino shisha, btw, is AWESOME) < 1266199041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've started smoking HEROIN < 1266199050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...up the arse. < 1266199062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ive not gotten any interesting feelings from it. i dont see how people could get anything out of nicotine. < 1266199100 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Illegal drugs and publically logged channels, two great tastes that taste great together! < 1266199144 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've wanted a shisha since i first visited germany < 1266199155 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Hookahs, although stupid, are not illegal. And heroin isn't generally smoked (can it be smoked?), so that's clearly a lie :P < 1266199158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo, shisha, you realize, is hookah tobacco, right? < 1266199169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You do realise that mentioning drugs on IRC isn't very dangerous? < 1266199171 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Tobacco is entirely legal. < 1266199174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe "I'm smuggling opium" < 1266199177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not supposed to get feelings from shisha, you're supposed to enjoy all the smoke! < 1266199180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not "Hey guys, I'm on WEED" < 1266199184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Or should I say... GANJA" < 1266199187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can say anything you want in irc < 1266199188 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the taste < 1266199189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not illega < 1266199196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admitting to doing something illegally on the internet is irrelevant. < 1266199213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: true, and its tasty < 1266199219 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Life of Mammals: The greatest wildlife show on Earth" < 1266199220 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1266199223 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its got nicotive < 1266199226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nicotine < 1266199230 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you should feel it < 1266199232 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much time they dedicate to humans :P' < 1266199242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: none. < 1266199271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Upside-domn typ hard < 1266199278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but the shishas i did in germany (pretty much nonstop for a week, luuuuved 'em :P [total exaggeration but anyway]), at least, contained very little nicotine < 1266199290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly because you're supposed to smoke it all the time < 1266199313 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shisha is pretty amazing < 1266199314 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not once every few hours or so like the usual nicotine rolls < 1266199318 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its horrible for you tho < 1266199328 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you smoke shisha like they do in turkey, for like 8 hours on and off < 1266199334 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its equivalent to smoking about 200 cigarettes < 1266199337 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266199344 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is horrible < 1266199361 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but if it wasn't horrible for you, no one would do it < 1266199391 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it has to be at least a bit horrible to be fun < 1266199412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i beg to differ < 1266199416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LSD is pretty unhorrible for you < 1266199447 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so's cock < 1266199469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cock especially < 1266199508 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if it has no bad effects, but it gives a high, of course it's fun again < 1266199508 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i mean you gotta have at least one < 1266199513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cock is nutritious if digested < 1266199531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION digests alise's cock < 1266199550 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266199556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o-kay < 1266199556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was in high school, two of my friends found a human cock in the woods, and one of them threw it on the other guy's face < 1266199556 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that's not hot at all D-8 < 1266199562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you're clearly in denial < 1266199565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, new competition < 1266199569 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266199571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :create a sentence /more awkward/ than that one < 1266199571 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not high school < 1266199574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck < 1266199576 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No digesting sexual organs! < 1266199587 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing before that, whatever it's called < 1266199598 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"upper elementary school" < 1266199749 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Middle school and/or junior high < 1266199758 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least, those are the names in the US) < 1266199846 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine penis would be spongy and not all that flavorful, probably not the best food as far as human meat goes. < 1266199857 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266199875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :んんん、人肉。 < 1266199895 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could probably give flavor to soup stock though. < 1266199896 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Human soup. < 1266199918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if it was cut off while erected, with something like a string around it so the blood stays in < 1266199941 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Then it would be spongy, irony, and would probably burst when you bit into it. < 1266199946 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, we're humans, we usually /cook/ our food. < 1266199951 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, true < 1266199951 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm, blood-filled dick < 1266199953 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'd just have the flavor of blood cooked into the spongy flesh. < 1266199958 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Sounds like the start of blood sausage. < 1266199967 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+50 points pikhq < 1266199971 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone tried to convince me that erections were caused by muscles < 1266199996 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no it's _mussles_, surely < 1266200003 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: Muscles in your heart push the blood, creating the initial blood pressure that eventually translates into an erection. < 1266200010 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: All MY erections are caused by mussels. < 1266200012 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1266200012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mussels < 1266200013 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mussels. < 1266200278 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mussles turn you on? < 1266200388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.naturalnews.com/005962.html < 1266200588 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, that being said, cock would probably taste mostly the same as the hens we usually eat, AFAIK there's not such a substantial difference between males and females of the species that they would actually /taste/ different. < 1266200679 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1266200688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That statement made me realize something. < 1266200691 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cocks don't have cocks. < 1266200693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :) < 1266200696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting thing, language. < 1266200726 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do hens have hens? < 1266200766 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1266200769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: also yes. < 1266200790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ducks have cocks though, i hear < 1266200813 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ducks, swans and other closely-related species of bird. < 1266200838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about that the next time you see Donald < 1266200872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very long cocks < 1266200896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And spiraled. < 1266200910 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yummeh < 1266200992 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know it's the devil that controls the world now, and not god, the jehovas told me this, i wasn't aware < 1266201025 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also was that independent research, or is that their official opinion? i mean it sounds really silly < 1266201063 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should join some cool religion < 1266201078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would totally own at that < 1266201082 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should FOUND a cool religion < 1266201157 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an even yummier idea ofc < 1266201194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go. < 1266201203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See you all on Friday... < 1266201211 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya < 1266201214 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck < 1266201220 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i could just worship john gabriel < 1266201227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's half term. So 90% of the day will be... sitting around. Sigh. < 1266201228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. < 1266201233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. <3 you all. < 1266201243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could always read about universal algebra < 1266201246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266201268 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.249.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266201270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how < 1266201272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no personal internet < 1266201273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no libary < 1266201274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*library < 1266201298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: < 1266201309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You could write a thesis on the stupidity of all this. < 1266201312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could borrow a book from an external library < 1266201320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no, I couldn't < 1266201324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266201329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a parent could and bring it to me < 1266201332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we're not allowed out... < 1266201346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right, i was thinking you'd bring one with ya < 1266201352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's tomorrow you know < 1266201353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266201353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1266201356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266201362 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yeah i guess that's a good point < 1266201372 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye again < 1266201425 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was set to inherit? < 1266201463 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266201471 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am i not the successor anymore? :( < 1266201511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: what? < 1266201527 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought i was the channel successor < 1266201565 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266201614 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now it says freenode-staff < 1266201632 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i thought calamari was an op? < 1266201837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe ask some actual staff? < 1266201869 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing i can see is that andreou is founder < 1266201898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and from nickserv, that he hasn't been here for 68 weeks) < 1266201905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1266201921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :38 < 1266201928 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :38 < 1266201931 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only 38 weeks? < 1266201963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it had been much more, he'd probably have been removed in the recent purge... < 1266201989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some time this autumn iirc) < 1266202020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, do i actually remember when the purge was, it could have been the year before < 1266202181 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266202247 0 :augur_!~augur@96.231.221.153 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266202278 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a purge? < 1266202285 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266202302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of unused nicks removed < 1266202326 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, i got an explanation from a staffer < 1266202336 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all single-# channels have freenode-staff as the successor < 1266202354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266202372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is new. also impractical... < 1266202408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, we really should have replaced andreou completely a long time ago < 1266202433 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow i always thought calamari was an op < 1266202438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever talked to him. < 1266202450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and fizzie are, aren't you? < 1266202455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm a bit of a long-time regular by now. < 1266202572 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like to get staff involvement we'd have to move the channel to ##esoteric < 1266202587 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably better to just maintain status-quo < 1266202595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... That's really dumb. < 1266202601 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can still op people < 1266202604 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stuff < 1266202613 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno what is it the channel founder is for < 1266202629 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Particularly considering that this is the closest to the official Esoteric Programming group. < 1266202634 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266202641 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could try that < 1266202657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We do also run the wiki and the archive... < 1266202819 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all we need to do is incorporate somewhere < 1266202840 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs Flashblock < 1266202852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is esolang hosted? < 1266202947 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hasn't played Robozzle in a while < 1266203113 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The never-shows-up graue hosts it. < 1266203146 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the important figures are no-shows :P < 1266203167 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the esolang wiki should totally be hosted in Hackiki ;) < 1266203185 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266204146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1266204400 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1266204422 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266204639 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266205893 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1266206669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266206789 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00t at Canada winning a gold! < 1266208409 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266208698 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266209747 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266209766 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Today I invented a esolang that is possible to represent Russell's paradox: Russell={#![#]}\*; < 1266210049 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266210568 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: This quit message will explode in 5 minute. Please have a good day, gentlemen. < 1266210694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't get the knight tracks in today's xkcd. the rest is all very accurate and understable though. < 1266210744 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: chess < 1266210760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :d'oh < 1266210811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*understandable < 1266210822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although to be honest, may not be quite stable either < 1266210846 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEOPLE < 1266210847 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEOPLE < 1266210848 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEOPLE < 1266210850 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1266210854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RABBITS < 1266210864 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rabbitboys are hot :( < 1266211454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION got a l'spirit descalier regarding earlier conversation < 1266211495 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l'esprit de'escalier < 1266211501 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... rabbitboys < 1266211602 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something about feeling sorry for female slaves named "nick" < 1266211811 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I think I need a liiiiiiiiiittle bit more explanation of "rabbitboys" :P < 1266211829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Y'know catgirls? < 1266211839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cat/rabbit/ s/girl/boy/ < 1266211846 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1266211847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell if I know. < 1266211883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has heard of something called playboy bunnies < 1266211899 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Not the same thing. < 1266211921 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dagobah.biz/flash/lolicatgirls.swf ? < 1266211923 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's girls dressed up in a skimpy outfit with a bunny tail and ears. For no good reason. < 1266211947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People do weird things with animal parts and humanoids. < 1266211950 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How did that site get past my FlashBlock? < 1266212037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i've also heard of something called furries < 1266212070 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sort of thought playboy bunnies was related < 1266212091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, playboy bunnies are just an artifact of marketing. < 1266212097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And furries are a somewhat odd fandom. < 1266212107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With associated sexual fetishes within the fandom. < 1266212112 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHWAIT < 1266212117 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are playgirl models bunnies too? < 1266212120 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would explain it. < 1266212125 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that I can rubber-stamp as OK :P < 1266212137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I think it's just the models with the bunny outfit on. < 1266212144 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I know. < 1266212146 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's my point < 1266212155 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not fur-fetishists, they're just wearing bunny-ears. < 1266212162 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And fuzzy tails. < 1266212169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1266212174 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be getting ready to go to sleep < 1266212712 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I still need your first-person explanation. < 1266212725 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise there's a nagging voice in my head. < 1266212743 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey what < 1266212792 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rabbitboys are hot :( OK, I think I need a liiiiiiiiiittle bit more explanation of "rabbitboys" :P < 1266212805 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266212814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know furboys who have rabbit fursonas < 1266212817 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and theyre all hot < 1266212838 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddamn are you guys still talking about sex? < 1266212840 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266212860 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GODDAMNIT < 1266212865 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it had to be furries. < 1266212905 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266212913 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here I was, blissfully thinking it was just playgirl models in bunny suits. < 1266212915 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no. < 1266212996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how in gods name could rabbitboy meant girl in a bunny suit? < 1266212998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you in drugs? < 1266213006 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: playGIRL models. < 1266213014 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PlayBOY models are girls, playGIRL models are boys. < 1266213018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW COULD RABBIT ___BOY___ MEAN THIS < 1266213039 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The world of softcore porn is entirely foreign to augur :P < 1266213095 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate playboy < 1266213100 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really terrible porn < 1266213158 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur is at playgirl.com RIGHT NOW :P < 1266213214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: oh sorry, playgirl models < 1266213218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see im not paying attention to that < 1266213231 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly :P < 1266213382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266214357 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266214377 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn that almost! < 1266215003 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i sure could go for some yiffing < 1266215208 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sobs* < 1266217498 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266220799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266220800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266221125 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266222046 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1266223842 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266224503 0 :Gracenotes_!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266224565 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266224680 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266224680 0 :Gracenotes_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gracenotes < 1266225803 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good middle-of-the-night/morning < 1266225930 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dawn if you're lucky < 1266226457 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aroudn half past eleven (am) here. < 1266226676 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1266227331 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266227479 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266227529 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B133C49.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266231159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266231410 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266231413 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266232661 0 :oklogon!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266232825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266233024 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266233166 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266234961 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266235855 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266235861 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266237487 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266237648 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266237665 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266238035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Good middle-of-the-night/morning <-- 10:22ish < 1266238045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at that point < 1266238146 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266239340 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266241232 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266242403 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266243721 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266244488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266244682 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266244728 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1266245359 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266245690 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-9-127.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266246171 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266246884 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266247682 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266247756 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1266247759 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1266247759 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266247877 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266248132 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266249032 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266249152 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266250367 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266251465 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1266251530 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266251812 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266252034 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266254713 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266254726 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266254893 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266255035 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-9-127.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266255116 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266255192 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266255305 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-9-127.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266255912 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-201-54.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266256089 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266256570 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266256819 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-30-135.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266257751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo, pretty frozen-north weather again; a tree: http://zem.fi/~fis/frozen.jpg < 1266257768 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay tree < 1266259035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what scarf said + yay noise in image < 1266259057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather visible in the blurry parts < 1266259143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still a phone, not a camera. < 1266259228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah okay < 1266259232 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, sure. It's also a bit artifacty sort of noise, probably due to some "noise-removal" image processing applied. < 1266259239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266259248 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly my camera does equally noisy images, so... But it's not a "real" camera, at that. < 1266259270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will never get completely noise free < 1266259314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess so, but the sensors in a typical DSLR-style camera tend to be larger, which should mean significantly less noise. < 1266259331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266259332 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266259338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw, you could use enfuse < 1266259371 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. I did some align_image_stack+enfuse for mini-tripod-out-of-hotel-room-window-at-night shots recently. < 1266259374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it did wonders for that panorama I fixed up for you if you remember < 1266259406 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266259479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/noise_1.jpg → http://zem.fi/~fis/noise_2.jpg < 1266259512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that true colour? < 1266259556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and yes that helped quite a bit. double the ammount of photos would have been even better (even in the latter the noise is quite noticeable) < 1266259618 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-193-0.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266259645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also it reduced the white headlight pattersn < 1266259648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :patterns* < 1266259650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite nice < 1266259669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some more and it would have looked rather deserted < 1266259751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, some manual whitebalance would have been a good idea though < 1266259768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even curve correction if raw format wasn't available on that hardware < 1266259789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc hugin can somewhat adjust whitebalance too < 1266259951 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266260212 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not so far off from the correct colors; street lighting around here tends to be pretty yellowish. < 1266260245 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did white-balance with the "point the camera at something white" setting, using some snow as reference-white-outside. < 1266260265 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry for the delay there, there was a cat-puke-related issue to take care of. < 1266260364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/noise_3.jpg → http://zem.fi/~fis/noise_4.jpg might be even more dramatic; that's inside the hotel room. < 1266260495 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first pair was made from 6 exposures, this second one with 9. < 1266260608 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a rather funny enfuse-generated phantom in http://zem.fi/~fis/ghost_bus.jpg < 1266260863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Cleaning the hotel windows every now and then would have helped, too.) < 1266261585 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266262978 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266263125 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266263495 0 :tombom__!tombom@86.24.14.243 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266263505 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266263509 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266264929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266265896 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266266409 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266267300 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266267956 0 :augur_!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266268603 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266269890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that image looks green though < 1266269907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sorry for the delay there, there was a cat-puke-related issue to take care of. <-- ? < 1266269977 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266270010 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing the "cat-puke-related" issue is actually the cat puke itself < 1266270026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, nice ghost bus yeah < 1266270045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, oh! that sounds plausible < 1266270062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was wondering about the cake itself. Before the issue < 1266270097 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cake and cat puke don't mix < 1266270157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was it a two "floors" bus? < 1266270168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the picture doesn't make much sense < 1266270175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe another bus from another exposure? < 1266270183 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lost doesn't make much sense either < 1266270196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, .... < 1266270247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is definitely a normal bus at the bottom. But part of it seems to have another bus located higher up on top as well? < 1266270254 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm just taking whatever you say and rewriting it into something that kind of makes sense in my own context, then responding to it as if it means something else < 1266270280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe that is a tram? < 1266270339 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I'm talking about is slightly more abstract than a tram, I think < 1266270359 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's buses all the way down. < 1266270371 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's plenty abstract < 1266270468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, hehe < 1266271037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you talking about abstract vehicles < 1266271104 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a tram "behind" the bus from another exposure, yes. < 1266271239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one of the yellow-green ones from http://www.raitio.org/ratikat/helsinki/hkl/luettelo/kalusto.htm < 1266271646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266271679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, abstract meta-ghost commuter vehicles < 1266271683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, ^ < 1266271700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for the obvious pun < 1266271862 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abelian grape! < 1266272008 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL MissPiggy < 1266272022 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get it < 1266272025 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: :o < 1266272047 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1266273294 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1266273629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, wrong one ;P < 1266273677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very well, I shall have to fill it in: < 1266273693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never meta-ghost commuter vehicle I didn't like < 1266274270 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266274795 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266275310 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266275958 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266276174 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266276384 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266276401 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266276615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266278584 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266278750 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266278943 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266279252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266279389 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266280453 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266281473 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266282693 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: restarting < 1266282752 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266283350 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266283380 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266288130 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266290662 0 :augur!~augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266292330 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266292668 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :man_in_radio_sha < 1266292672 0 :man_in_radio_sha!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1266292684 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :man_in_house < 1266292727 0 :man_in_house!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1266292746 0 :augur_!~augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266292748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266293041 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266293045 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Wareya < 1266294313 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266294771 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266295156 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266297840 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266298048 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266298486 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266298552 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266298740 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266302000 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266302105 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :_bsmntbombdood < 1266302191 0 :_bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1266304488 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266305305 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266307199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266307200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266307665 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-7-155.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266309033 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266312065 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1266313540 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1266313618 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't WANT to explode! < 1266313747 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-193-0.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266314401 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266314877 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266316737 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132456.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266316808 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266318655 0 :Edicius!~Edicius@83.149.52.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266318667 0 :Edicius!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1266318830 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266318876 0 :Edicius!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god hate me < 1266319767 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266321562 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266322823 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266323823 0 :Edicius!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266324361 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266324872 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266325409 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266325492 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266325657 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266325671 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266326155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor, poor fireballs. < 1266326158 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iwc) < 1266326336 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/user/cendamos < 1266326340 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This guy is insane < 1266326341 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y/n < 1266328258 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266328961 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-193-0.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266329229 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266329505 0 :co_sobat!~user@110.138.183.50 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266329959 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266330514 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266330571 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266331930 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266331953 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`c printf("%d %d %d", 'B', 'Z', 'h'); < 1266331961 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266331971 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`c printf("%d %d %d\n", 'B', 'Z', 'h'); < 1266331972 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266331976 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1266331992 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`c int main(){printf("%d %d %d\n", 'B', 'Z', 'h');} < 1266331992 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266331999 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what am I doing wrong? < 1266332023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`c printf("%d\n", 42); < 1266332024 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266332047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266332054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%d\n", 42); < 1266332062 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :42 < 1266332066 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, wrong bot < 1266332069 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%d %d %d\n", 'B', 'Z', 'h'); < 1266332070 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :66 90 104 < 1266332099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%d", (66 << 24) + (90 << 16) + (104 << 8)); < 1266332100 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1113221120 < 1266332113 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("what"); < 1266332114 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266332118 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh date -d '@1113221120' < 1266332118 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mon Apr 11 12:05:20 UTC 2005 < 1266332127 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls < 1266332128 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interps < 1266332128 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, how annoyingly coincidentally recent < 1266332143 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt this is secure < 1266332150 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ought to be < 1266332160 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh rm -rf / < 1266332161 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/' < 1266332163 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1266332181 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh rm -rf --no-preserve-root / < 1266332183 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: cannot remove `/': Function not implemented < 1266332195 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, /that/'s where you start seeing things getting weird < 1266332210 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the OS it's on doesn't actually support deletion of directories < 1266332221 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266332230 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about ls / | rm < 1266332240 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feel free to try it < 1266332246 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls / | rm < 1266332246 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: missing operand < 1266332250 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls / | rm - < 1266332250 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: cannot remove `-': Permission denied < 1266332253 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you probably mean ls / | xargs rm < 1266332258 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/e < 1266332263 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh rm -h < 1266332263 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: invalid option -- h < 1266332265 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh rm -help < 1266332265 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: invalid option -- h < 1266332267 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh rm --help < 1266332267 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usage: /bin/rm [OPTION]... FILE... < 1266332274 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll hit ^a S < 1266332297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!perl #!/bin/cat < 1266332298 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/bin/cat < 1266332336 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh rm -r / < 1266332337 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: cannot remove root directory `/' < 1266332348 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh rm -r < 1266332349 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: missing operand < 1266332351 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh rm -r ./ < 1266332351 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/rm: cannot remove directory `./' < 1266332356 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ;s < 1266332357 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/input.16264: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `;' < 1266332361 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls < 1266332362 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interps < 1266332370 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls interps < 1266332370 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1l < 1266332375 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what I give up < 1266332393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls / < 1266332393 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin < 1266332406 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls / | xargs echo < 1266332407 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin dev etc home lib lib64 proc tmp usr < 1266332413 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh ls /etc < 1266332414 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatives < 1266332421 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no /etc/passwd should be another clue < 1266332442 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically a sandbox, with every operation that could escape or seriously damage the sandbox blocked or unimplemented < 1266332897 0 :co_sobat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266333923 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266333935 0 :lifthrasiir!pJIrEl1C@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266334108 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266334287 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: In other words, every operation that could seriously damage the sandbox blocked and no root access. < 1266334295 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266334301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's a chroot with a replacement libc, after all) < 1266334307 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yep < 1266334476 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266336596 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266337545 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-9-101.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266337604 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266339092 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266339505 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1266339787 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-9-101.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266340034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266341442 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in C, what operations can be performed on pointers? < 1266341472 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++ -- == < 1266341528 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Increment, decrement, comparison? < 1266341556 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading and writing to a pointer < 1266341557 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about addition and casting and stuff? < 1266341614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Addition and subtraction are defined. < 1266341625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Casting between pointer types is defined. < 1266341647 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Casting from a pointer to an int is defined. < 1266341658 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266341660 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is it legal to... < 1266341668 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Casting from an int to a pointer is very, very undefined behavior. < 1266341677 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, whew. < 1266341744 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Start with a pointer to an A, cast it to a pointer to a B, add 5, cast it to a pointer to a C, add 8, cast it back to B, subtract 5, cast it back to C, subtract 8, cast it back to A, and assume that the result is the same pointer you had originally? < 1266341805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Only valid if *A, *B, and *C have the same sizeof. < 1266341845 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I *think* casting from an intptr_t is defined, if and only if you don't do any operations on it that aren't allowed on pointers. < 1266341851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pointer+integer" is defined, but "pointer+pointer" is not. And "pointer-pointer" is only defined for pointers to elements of the same array. (And pointer+integer, pointer-integer are also undefined behaviour if they go outside the borders of an object.) < 1266341889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though I'm not sure on that. That's *really* an edge case, and I doubt it ever comes up.) < 1266341894 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why is it invalid if they don't have the same sizeof? < 1266341915 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Actually, it's just that you'll get a completely different pointer if they don't. < 1266341932 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why will you get a completely different pointer if they don't? < 1266341953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i + 1" is the same as "(char*)i + (1 * sizeof(*i))". < 1266341970 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh m god < 1266341972 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what that means in English. < 1266341984 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1266342008 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I think it makes perfect sense. < 1266342010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's the semantics of the *addition*. You don't actually *get* a char*. ;) < 1266342028 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. < 1266342041 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose the address you start with is x, the size of B is y, and the size of C is z. < 1266342053 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kay... < 1266342064 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect you to start with x, then turn it into x + 5y, then into x + 5y + 8z, then into x + 8z, then back into x. < 1266342116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. You do the casts in such a way that you do end up getting the same thing back. < 1266342122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that works. < 1266342125 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1266342129 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't think it's guaranteed to work. < 1266342131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming you don't go beyond the bounds of the allocation for x. < 1266342153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you do, then the C compiler is free to destroy everything. < 1266342161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it probably *won't*, but it's allowed to.) < 1266342173 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that colorful expression for undefined behavior? < 1266342188 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's "the C compiler may cause demons to fly out of your nose". < 1266342244 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pointers to different types can have completely different representations; I don't think that pointer magic there is guaranteed to work. < 1266342248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds right. < 1266342270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ... I'm pretty sure the casts are valid. < 1266342284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can convert any pointer to void * and back; not between pointers. < 1266342307 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is converting a pointer to void * and then to a totally different type of pointer undefined behavior? < 1266342309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could've sworn that it was perfectly valid so long as there weren't function pointers involved. < 1266342318 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some Crays, for example, have "char *"s composed of a pointer-to-word plus an offset into the word. < 1266342334 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in general, sizeof(foo *) is not guaranteed to be sizeof(bar *). < 1266342408 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All this almost makes me want to read the spec and see this stuff for myself. < 1266342447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 section 6.3.2.3 lists pointer-related allowed conversions. < 1266342449 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266342458 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointers point to pointer-pointing pointers < 1266342485 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void * * * < 1266342666 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can convert: 1) pointer to void to/from pointer to any type; 2) remove qualifiers (like const); 3) integer constant expression with a value of 0 to a null pointer of any type; 4) null pointer of any type to null pointer of any other type; 5) integer to any pointer type (with implementation-defined behaviour, possibly ending up with a trap representation); 6) any pointer type to integer (with implementation-defined result, which needs not be in the range of < 1266342666 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any integer type; intptr_t is optional); 7) pointer of any type to pointer to some other type, but if the result is not aligned correctly it's undefined behaviour; 8) function pointers between other sort of function pointers. < 1266342689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The conversion #7 is involved in your example, and getting correct alignment there is certainly not guaranteed. < 1266342752 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what percentage of all C programs ever written are technically undefined in their behaviour. < 1266342759 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and as a subcase of #7 you can convert any pointer to a char* and then access all bytes of the object. < 1266342905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, 7 allows casting to and from pointers to *structs* in the common case of having structs with a common heading, for a bit of runtime polymorphism... < 1266342930 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck transparency... < 1266342953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and I think there was even something more explicit about the layout for structs with common initial sequence of members. < 1266342980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the layout for structs is defined such that they alignment will be correct. < 1266342999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *know* C allows that. < 1266343054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The trap representations are a nasty thing, though. You get undefined behaviour simply by reading such a value; you don't even have to dereference a pointer or do some other risky-looking operation. < 1266343211 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undefined behavior is nice if you're trying to implement C. < 1266343255 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, fizzie, you say you "can convert" stuff. I'm guessing that means you can convert the stuff without encountering undefined behavior, which means that the behavior is defined. < 1266343284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Though some of those were only implementation-defined. < 1266343323 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266343324 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that the same thing as undefined? < 1266343345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. Implementation-defined means the implementation is required to document what it will do in that case. < 1266343353 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1266343357 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes the spec even restricts the set of allowed things an implementation can do. < 1266343386 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you try to do anything implementation-defined, the program will segfault. Nyah!" < 1266343392 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266343396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, the signedness of chars are implementation-defined. < 1266343423 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the representation for signed integers in C99; it's guaranteed to be either two's-complement, one's-complement or sign-magnitude, but it's implementation-defined which one. < 1266343433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a char is neither a signed char nor an unsigned char) < 1266343454 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a nice 13-page list of bullet points (appendix J, section 2) in the C99 spec titled "Undefined behaviour". Of course the appendixes aren't normative, but that's still an impressive list. < 1266343576 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266343603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so comforting to know that I can rely on signed integers being in exactly one of three formats, without knowing which one. < 1266343614 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can test which one. < 1266343633 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow. < 1266343694 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266343702 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take -1, cast it to unsigned, rotate it left. If it's 3, you're on sign-magnitude. < 1266343753 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take -1, cast it to unsigned, add 1. If it's 0, you're on two's complement. < 1266343763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take -1, cast it to unsigned, add 2. If it's 0, you're on ones' complement. < 1266343787 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, I think there's a more efficient way to do this. < 1266343827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it would work, thanks to the very friendly conversion-to-unsigned rule. < 1266343859 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take -1, cast it to unsigned, add 2, and rotate it left. If it's 5, you're on sign-magnitude; if it's 2, you're on two's complement; if it's 0, you're on ones' complement. < 1266343895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, wait. < 1266343924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Signed value of -1, converted to unsigned integer, is always guaranteed to return UINT_MAX-1. < 1266343931 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No matter what the representation is. < 1266343962 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it acts like two's complement no matter what it actually is? < 1266343994 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sense that conversion to unsigned integer is defined in terms of the value. < 1266344017 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why would a person care what the actual representation is? < 1266344060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, especially since the representation might have an arbitrary amount of padding bits in it, even if it's guaranteed to have its value bits arranged using one of those three schemes. < 1266344085 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thought uorygl was singing a version of 99 bottles < 1266344522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could probably test it via very careful bit twiddling. < 1266344578 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can look at the bits of the representation through a char *, but the padding bits might make that really hard to figure out, given that arithmetic operations on the value can set them to arbitrary values. < 1266344622 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that in practice, there's a lot that people are never going to do. < 1266344706 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Addressing arrays, and the pointer arithmetic that entails, is something they're going to do. < 1266344715 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Casting between compatible types is something they might do. < 1266344725 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything else, I think not. < 1266344729 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if I need to send an integer to a hardware port? < 1266344738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd be surprised. < 1266344751 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you need to send an integer to a hardware port? < 1266344760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it will compile, someone out there has done it in C. < 1266344772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it won't compile, someone out there has *tried* to do it in C. < 1266344780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardware ports sound very implementation-defined, and, coincidentally enough, so's converting an integer to a pointer. < 1266344790 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, but that doesn't mean it's done very often. < 1266344856 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have XOR linked lists, I don't care about your stupid program. < 1266344867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So on a particular implementation, *((unsigned *)0xdeadbeef) = 0xf00d; might be well-defined behaviour. < 1266344905 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have xor linked lists, I will do nasty things to you. < 1266344932 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have XOR linked lists, I will refuse to garbage collect you. :P < 1266344935 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will also force you to use garbage collection. < 1266344941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as punishment) < 1266345134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I collect all my garbage into xor-style linked lists. < 1266345260 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I garbage collect by calling free after allocation. < 1266345321 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I garbage collect by ceasing to refer to a value. < 1266345361 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't garbage collect. I have an infinite supply of tape. < 1266345367 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, what's an XOR linked list again? < 1266345379 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely remember how they work and knowing why it's such an incredibly bad idea, but I can't quite remember the details < 1266345391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Doubly linked list with a single pointer. < 1266345395 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A XOR linked list is a doubly linked list where the pointer field consists of the XOR of the forward and backward pointers. < 1266345396 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it that you don't store a next and a prev pointer, but instead next XOR prev? < 1266345396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's one with the "prev" and "next" pointers xor'd together, under the assumption that you already know one, since you came to the node from there. < 1266345399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yes < 1266345404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :next XOR prev. < 1266345416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next XOR perv. < 1266345422 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's definitely fore XOR back. :P < 1266345430 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I spent the last 3 hours translating an implementation of unzip2 from C to Java < 1266345434 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to go home now, I think < 1266345437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It hurts garbage collection so very much. < 1266345439 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bunzip2 < 1266345459 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is why people don't program in C. < 1266345470 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except Apple developers. < 1266345475 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION crushes his iPhone in frustration. < 1266345480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple developers don't program in C. < 1266345485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They program in Objective C. < 1266345493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Object system, garbage collection... < 1266345495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm suspicious of pointer-based garbage collection too, though < 1266345502 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective C is a superset of C. < 1266345510 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objective C has garbage collection? That's new to me. < 1266345523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Optional feature added by Apple. < 1266345527 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266345531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Also, it's always done reference counting. < 1266345569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did "garbage collect by calling free after allocation" refer to the clever "void *gc_alloc(size_t size) { void *p = malloc(size); free(p); return p; }" GC? < 1266345593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Heheheh. < 1266345615 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: is there an interesting story behind that? < 1266345670 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There might, but I only remember having seen the "technique" (if you can call it that) somewhere, maybe usenet. < 1266345681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly efficient. < 1266345699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "technique" is "hope that there's not another allocation until you want it to go away". < 1266345717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and "hope that free just marks the space as free, instead of actually unmapping it." < 1266345722 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-47-173.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266345748 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266345767 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders something that's like C except easy to compile Haskell into. < 1266345790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A G-machine? < 1266345854 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, what's a G-machine? < 1266345873 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it evaluates combinator calculus lazily < 1266345939 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't sound like a programming language. < 1266345992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a graph reduction machine. < 1266346007 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have a Wikipedia article? < 1266346014 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, I deny that it exists. < 1266346022 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by "deny that it exists", I mean "wonder where to find more information on it". < 1266346024 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a type of machine. < 1266346030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC documentation. < 1266346072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(After compiling down to core, GHC compiles to a G machine, does optimisation, then compiles to C--, then compiles to machine code) < 1266346089 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a lot of compiling. < 1266346256 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC does * -> AST -> (optional intermediate form) -> GENERIC -> GIMPLE -> RTL -> assembly -> machine code < 1266346274 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fuck is a programming language?? < 1266346320 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk lopl < 1266346406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, some frontends do * -> AST -> language-specific passes -> RTL -> assembly -> machine code < 1266346416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For no freaking good reason. < 1266346607 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. Profit! < 1266346631 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Borland delphi compiles to C code < 1266346636 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1266346727 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope Borland Turbo C doesn't compile to C code. < 1266346785 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember Turbo Pascal! < 1266346847 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My brother and I wrote a program using it. I think it was called "cinderella". Its most impressive feature was that if you went into the cafe and asked for milk, it would respond with "Chocolate?" < 1266347040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We once found an I-think-it-was-in-Turbo-Pascal "adventure" "game" from the school file server, designed to teach about right and wrong (for example, "stealing is bad") to around-puberty-aged children. As a game, it was remarkably bad; but hilarious anyway. < 1266347248 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had a graphical-adventure style list-of-commands-at-the-bottom-of-the-screen interface, but I think the graphics were mostly text-based; in any case, there were such things like the "listen" command, which wasn't actually used anywhere in the game, it just produced some PC speaker noises and the text "I hear voices, do you?" -- and the "look" - "at yourself" command, which described your state: "I feel . I smell bad. The videos I stole weig < 1266347248 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :h on my conscience." < 1266347258 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You started to smell bad if you took the sausage to your dog.) < 1266347262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turbo Pascal was cool. I remember writing a Minesweeper in it, with a friend. < 1266347278 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that must have been Borland C. < 1266347288 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TP was a little earlier than that. < 1266347482 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Turbo Pascal I remember writing a good chunk of a roguelike, but it was too ambitious and was never finished. < 1266347577 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We wrote a good chunk of a tile-based mostly-a-roguelike (sort of Exile-inspired) with DJGPP and the Allegro lib, but that wasn't ever finished either. Oh, the foolishness. < 1266347801 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should have used libtcod! < 1266347812 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, as Gregor can contest, is probably the most important library ever. < 1266347989 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266348015 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266348347 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's sevenfold today? < 1266348759 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well? < 1266350172 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B133278.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266350552 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266352530 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266352696 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266352709 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266352788 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266352870 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266354771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Borland delphi compiles to C code < 1266354771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : IIRC < 1266354775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it doesn't < 1266354796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least didn't in delphi 7 or such < 1266354809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I used it (I was young and innocent, I didn't know better!) < 1266354897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You should have used libtcod! <-- what was that library? < 1266355119 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://doryen.eptalys.net/ < 1266355125 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roguelike library, it's interesting < 1266356032 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266356833 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266358343 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266358611 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sevenfold are the midnights that have passed since last Tuesday. < 1266359068 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's pretty much it. < 1266359095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sevenfold are the capital letters on the fifth row of my keyboard. < 1266359170 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sevenfold are my irssi windows to the left of #haskell. < 1266359183 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, #lojban. < 1266359214 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thirty-twofold are my irssi windows to the right of #lojban. < 1266359267 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sevenfold are the English-speaking oceans of Puzzle Pirates, if you consider Ice and Crimson each half an ocean. < 1266359337 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtfold < 1266361030 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266361077 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1266361103 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266361409 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266361817 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266362364 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266362513 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266362773 0 :oklogon!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266362906 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266362998 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1266363103 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266363458 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266364500 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266366049 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266366980 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266367093 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266367708 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266367901 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266368286 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266368307 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still feel defeated wrt. that robozzle thing < 1266368521 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266368880 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266368886 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-159-108-27.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266369732 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzz < 1266370267 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266370761 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266370940 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266371479 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266372534 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266375134 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266375410 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266376395 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266376397 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266376737 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266376989 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266379125 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266379156 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266379197 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266379701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1266379744 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266380029 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266380044 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266382243 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266382311 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266382346 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266385181 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, http://xkcd.com/703/ is actually pretty good :P < 1266385244 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is. < 1266385390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas. < 1266385411 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like an xkcd from the time span where it got really popular because it was funny. < 1266385840 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1266385843 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still no questionable content < 1266386222 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.manjulaskitchen.com/ < 1266386224 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indian food : < 1266386225 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266386901 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266387153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grmph xkcd loads just a ... blank page? < 1266387195 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XKCD don't need you Nordic types. < 1266387220 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmph the page source is definitely not blank < 1266387351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old comics too... < 1266387443 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works fine for me. < 1266387450 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XKCD just don't need you Nordic types. < 1266387471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1266388067 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1266388125 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266388329 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Forgot about XKCD tonight < 1266388379 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's awesome < 1266388411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smbc is more regularly humorous < 1266388503 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That "most dangerous game" one was cute. < 1266388538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes, yes it is. < 1266388549 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, in fact, *usually* humorous. < 1266388641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god this woman has a tamarind chutney recipe < 1266388647 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god this is the best recipe website ever < 1266388730 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If 1,000,000 people join, wouldn't the group have 1,000,001, including the creator? < 1266388739 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or what if a bunch of people join, then leave? < 1266388753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1266388773 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Omnomnom. < 1266388781 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know :( < 1266388785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tamarind chutney is the best < 1266388786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEST < 1266388789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking chutney < 1266388791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever < 1266389004 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night all < 1266389009 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to cry himself to sleep < 1266389029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1266389054 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://raglanshire.com/2010/02/in-memory-of-our-friend-stillpink/ < 1266389246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266389278 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266389426 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1266389460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*BOOOOOM* < 1266389570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266389899 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266389972 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266390054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266390178 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266390184 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266390276 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like that show < 1266390442 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-133.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266391460 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266391712 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266391952 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266393560 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266393599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266393600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266394125 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266394484 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266394697 0 :base3__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266394796 0 :base3!~rk@host81-141-239-237.wlms-broadband.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266394828 0 :lifthrasiir!pWRaf6Jl@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266395615 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266396040 0 :base3_!~rk@host81-141-239-205.wlms-broadband.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266396048 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266396199 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266396380 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266396771 0 :base3_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266396852 0 :base3!~rk@host81-141-239-192.wlms-broadband.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266397646 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266398780 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266398844 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266398864 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266399604 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266402491 0 :AnMaster_!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1266402857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266404953 0 :AnMaster_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :AnMaster < 1266406021 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266406952 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266409825 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266412728 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266413859 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266417338 0 :oklogon!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266417376 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266417665 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266417886 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266419082 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266419176 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266420055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266420486 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266422672 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266422980 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266426050 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-157.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266426739 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266428330 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-219-95.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266428865 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266429418 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-108-27.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266430412 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266430550 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266431376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266431389 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-14-244.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266431826 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266432173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266432233 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266432253 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266433022 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo_Zwei < 1266433031 0 :MigoMipo_Zwei!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1266433930 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266434021 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266434632 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, I just added 3 entries to my "unfinished esolang designs" list ( http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html ) -- Faradaisical, Kig, and Milab. < 1266434958 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that supposed to be an all-inclusive list? :D < 1266434974 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha. < 1266435301 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case it's not clear from the page, those are the ideas I have basically given up on, but which I consider too interesting to be simply discarded. < 1266435356 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1266438786 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-248-38.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266438905 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266440381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266440627 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266440646 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :faradaisical has a great name < 1266440865 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266441009 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266441156 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Are there groups that have multiple-element minimal generators that don't decompose into multiple groups (w.r.t. cartesian product). If there are, wonder if they would be useful for constructing esolang... < 1266441258 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266441318 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there are, at least D2 (Klein-Four group). That has minimal generator size of 2 but doesn't decompose. < 1266441435 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But are there groups that have all elements in generator set have sizable order? < 1266443222 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266443512 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266443835 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1266444064 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266444228 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266444461 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266444929 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266446137 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266446161 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266447052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that went completely over my head XD < 1266447070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it about topology again? < 1266447394 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. But I think I have solved most problems with wormholes except for how various operations affecting IP delta would behave. < 1266447417 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this in Funge? < 1266447423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm? < 1266447458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you mean like the MODE fingerprint which changes <>^v and such to affect position not delta (or various other variants)? < 1266447485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/MODE.html < 1266447493 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nope, just basic befunge operations that set IP delta. < 1266447586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, well, those are ^v<>x for unconditional. A few more in trefunge < 1266447596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus some conditional ones < 1266447599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like w_| < 1266447618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and the random cardinal direction ? of course < 1266447640 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MODE doesn't work on h or l? < 1266447643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I forgot [ and ] that turns 90 degrees (counterclockwise/clockwise < 1266447644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1266447647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, no clue < 1266447670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, it doesn't work on w either it seems < 1266447673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then < 1266447678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w is relative current always < 1266447683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is turn left/right < 1266447689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or go straight ahead < 1266447690 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if there couldn't be operators inside wormhole, that would mean no IP delta changes there either... < 1266447692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on compare < 1266447702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, why couldn't there be? < 1266447744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, and of course there should be possible to have wormholes between wormholes and normal space < 1266447784 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because normal space have two equivalent dimensions, but wormholes have longitudial direction and transverse direction, and those most definitely aren't equivalent. In fact, what direction is longitudial depends on direction wormhole was hit. < 1266447822 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Do you have docs on how wormholes work as of now? < 1266447824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, so there could be no code inside a wormhole? < 1266447828 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do I need to look in the logs? < 1266447838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, they aren't implemented anywhere yet < 1266447842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is theorising about it < 1266447847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266447854 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but one can have docs without an implementation < 1266447867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, logs the last week or so I guess < 1266447870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep for wormhole < 1266447878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't have too many irrelevant hits < 1266447936 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much the only basic operations that are problematic are those that set absolute IP delta... '[' and ']' wouldn't be... < 1266447986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, well, if you hit a cell with ^ in, you go the direction where ^ is written < 1266447989 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wormholes within wormholes would really mess up tracking about what direction wormhole was entered from. < 1266447997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, one issue would be *how to write* inside the wormhole < 1266448005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since what is the x/y coordinate < 1266448022 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wormhole endpoint has x/y coordinate, but that's a gap in space. < 1266448040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you need to be able to give current x/y coord, the y command (sysinfo) includes that amongst many other things < 1266448105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even you made y inside a wormhole invalid, you would still need some coordinate system for use by the interpreter itself < 1266448163 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Libstertas < 1266448242 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: how do wormholes work? < 1266448291 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard befunge coordinates form a group. Wormholes would break that. WORM would be one heck of a feral fingerprint (not as bad as TRDS, but quite bad). < 1266448311 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266448338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, agreed. I doubt I would implement it < 1266448352 0 :Libstertas!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :LibsterBib < 1266448495 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Explain? < 1266448521 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Coordinate addition is no longer associative in presence of wormholes. < 1266448536 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1266448538 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1266448574 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266448588 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: why couldn't a ring have absorptino? < 1266448591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*absorption < 1266448608 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are also proerties like: If at t = 0, two IPs are at the same point, have different IP deltas that will not change, in standard funge, those IPs will never be at same point again, whereas with wormholes, they could. < 1266448636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ilari: But are there groups that have all elements in generator set have sizable order?" <<< what's sizable order? < 1266448646 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would they never return to the same place? < 1266448654 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, they would have to < 1266448668 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: There prsumably means much larger than 2. < 1266448670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There are also proerties like: If at t = 0, two IPs are at the same point, have different IP deltas that will not change, in standard funge, those IPs will never be at same point again, whereas with wormholes, they could. <-- wraparound < 1266448680 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yeah. < 1266448682 0 :LibsterBib!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :pthing < 1266448699 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: The only x where x * x = x in a ring is x = 1. And the only y where y + y = y is y = 0. < 1266448716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, one goes straight up one goes straight left, they will hit the same place again assuming width/height ever match up < 1266448749 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: the free group generated by {x, y, z} has pretty sizable order for the generators. < 1266448771 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: But doesn't it also decompose w.r.t. cartesian product? < 1266448785 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: why? < 1266448795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter is obvious, i don't see why the first one is < 1266448806 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: I'm still really not clear what this is supposed to be doing :/ < 1266448838 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: My ring theory is rusty. < 1266448841 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ forms an abelian group, but . just needs to distribute over + and possibly have 1. < 1266448868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, some questions about TURT btw. < 1266448879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y + y = y => y = 0, by adding -y to both sides < 1266448904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but x^2 = x <=> xx - x = 0 <=> x(x - 1) = 0 < 1266448908 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have < 1266448908 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I think free group from {x, y, z} is the same as Z x Z x Z. < 1266448916 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(H + x) + (H + y) = H + (x + y) if H is a coset < 1266448917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, mainly, is U supposed to return the same value all the time (max bounds supported)? Or is it current bounds of the drawing? < 1266448930 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: what would xyx be in Z^3? < 1266448935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, if the former I have an issue, bignum again :/ < 1266448950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: and if it's not a domain, i don't see why x would have to be 1 or 0 if x(x - 1) = 0 < 1266448965 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, free groups are noncommutative. < 1266448975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, another thing, how is the coordinate supposed to be handled. Round to nearest integer? You can easily get non-integers when you move an integer distance along an integer heading < 1266448984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-integers for x and y that is < 1266449024 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Your guess is as good as mine. < 1266449034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you wrote TURT though < 1266449048 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: for abelian groups, we can in fact split all groups up into pieces sort of like you guessed, but groups in general can do pretty much anything, at least afaik. < 1266449050 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, more than a decade ago. < 1266449058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, since I render to svg in cfunge (and will do same in efunge) I can use floating point coordinates < 1266449082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can query coordinates in TURT, but that should return integer < 1266449109 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x(x - 1) = 0 could have other solutions than just x = 0 and x = 1 if operation is done in ring that's not integral domain. < 1266449145 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5*4=0 < 1266449150 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mod 20 :P < 1266449155 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm sure you won't break many existing TURT-using Befunge-98 programs if you just pick a behaviour that sounds reasonable :) < 1266449176 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2*3 = 0 in Z_6 if you want an example < 1266449178 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And indeed 5^2 = 25 = 5 (mod 20). < 1266449189 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266449194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that's x^2-x=0 ? Which gives x= 1/2 +/- sqrt(2^2/4) ? < 1266449207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait < 1266449209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typoed that < 1266449215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x= 1/2 +/- sqrt(1^2/4) ? < 1266449219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1266449260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo style thingies are confusing ;P < 1266449279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least when using it that way < 1266449285 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266449375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^2 - x = 0 gives x(x - 1) = 0 which gives x = 0 or x = 1 on R, silly AnMaster. < 1266449398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well yes < 1266449425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I was just checking if there was any solutions in C by using the general formula < 1266449432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course there wasn't < 1266449435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too sleepy < 1266449446 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo isn't confusing, Z_n is an abelian ring, and abelian rings are nice and simple things. < 1266449472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, only if you are used to them < 1266449474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah C is an integral domain, you can't have ab = 0 unless a = 0 or b = 0 < 1266449490 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well also you need to know it's a unique factorization domain < 1266449500 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1266449509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooo you don't < 1266449514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly oklopol < 1266449532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said anything about ab=0? < 1266449568 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^2 - x = 0 <=> x(x - 1) = 0 < 1266449617 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case your pattern matching skills are sleepy too, a = x, b = x - 1 < 1266449618 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Say a * a = a and b * b = b. But a * e = a and b * e = b. Therefore a = b. < 1266449645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is that complete bullshit? Hm. < 1266449651 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266449656 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your therefore isn't really based on anything < 1266449666 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it's based on division < 1266449678 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh umm < 1266449734 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b * b = b, b * e = b, therefore e = b. a * a = a, a * e = a, therefore e = a. Therefore a = b. < 1266449740 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't see where you get an equality < 1266449756 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :b * b = b, b * e = b, therefore e = b <<< why? < 1266449762 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Substitution? < 1266449777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in case your pattern matching skills are sleepy too, a = x, b = x - 1 <-- yeah thanks < 1266449782 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can substitute e for b and b for e, therefore e = b, no? < 1266449816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, any solutions that are quaternions? If not, what would be needed to get a polynomial with quaternionious solutions? < 1266449818 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can substitute e for b and b for e if they are then multiplied from the left by b, yes. < 1266449829 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266449843 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. there are just those two solutions, because also quaternions are an integral domain (i should hope) < 1266449849 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, just add the mirror-image to get multiplied from the right. e is both left and right identity. < 1266449851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well yes, for that given one < 1266449862 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a mirror image? < 1266449864 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^-1? < 1266449865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, but what sort of polynomial would give a quaternion as a solution? < 1266449881 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, well a polynomial in H would! < 1266449887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: b * b = b, e * b = b, therefore e = b < 1266449894 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example x - q = 0 (with q in H) < 1266449899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: my guess is you're confusing rings and fields < 1266449907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, oh good point < 1266449916 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what axiom from field theory am I using? < 1266449921 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing is, since C is a subset of H < 1266449930 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then any polynomial with roots in C has roots in H < 1266449939 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you're basically getting b*b = e*b ==> b = e, right? < 1266449957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well, I meant ones that doesn't fit into "simpler" "subsets" < 1266449970 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes, I believe I stated that < 1266449975 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if b has a right inverse, then that's true < 1266449978 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what if it doesn't? < 1266449991 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I wonder if H is algebraically closed (like C is) < 1266450058 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean by your logic b*0 = 0, e*0 = 0 => b = e < 1266450065 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can substitute them for each other < 1266450087 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266450125 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: b*0 = 0, e*0 = 0 => b = e = 0 < 1266450131 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :substitute all occurrences of b < 1266450139 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure about that? < 1266450141 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1266450150 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're basically saying all rings only have the one element 0 < 1266450155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not sure that's true < 1266450172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a*0 = 0 for all a < 1266450173 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No, I'm not saying that. < 1266450197 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so take any two elements a and b, and you'll have a*0 = 0, b*0 = 0 => a=b=0 < 1266450201 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:40 < oklopol> i mean by your logic b*0 = 0, e*0 = 0 => b = e < 1266450202 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266450223 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice misinterpretation of x and y are equal if P(x) <=> P(y) ==> x = y < 1266450237 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be true for ALL P, not just one P < 1266450253 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266450265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that's what's being misinterpreted < 1266450276 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he's just confusing rings and fields < 1266450283 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh don't get algebraic about this < 1266450288 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for goodness sake < 1266450290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266450339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, no idea < 1266450415 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still not sure what field axiom I'm relying on. If x * x = x then x has a right inverse (it's x.) < 1266450423 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: anyway in Z_6, 4*4 = 16 = 4, so 4 is an idempotent element < 1266450468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just want to know if you're really not seeing you're doing a division there < 1266450476 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266450487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if x*x = x, then x has a right inverse, huh? < 1266450497 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be x*x = 1 < 1266450599 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I may well be wrong. < 1266450605 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i can't say what field axiom you're relying on, because i just see a gap in logic. all i can say is that from the existence of inverses, e=b follows trivially from eb = bb < 1266450609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't see how I'm doing division. < 1266450632 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because you just have a gap in logic, you take what you have, and you say "therefore b=e". < 1266450651 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you agree that eb = bb -> e = b? < 1266450668 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not, i just showed you a counterexample < 1266450681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then what was your "all i can say" statement about? < 1266450712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that i don't know what field axioms you're relying on. because you aren't relying on anything. < 1266450740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it sounded like you just said, "All I can say is that from the existence of inverses, eb = bb implies e = b" -- is that not what you meant? < 1266450758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, *if we had inverses*, then that'd trivially be true < 1266450769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so given that we don't, why is it true? < 1266450853 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you agree it would be true if we knew b had an inverse (regardless of any other element having one)? < 1266450860 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266450876 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could then multiply by that inverse. < 1266450968 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I wish I could show it had an inverse, then. < 1266450997 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah good luck showing there are no rings that aren't fields. < 1266451031 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying EVERY element in the ring has to have an inverse. < 1266451031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Z_4) < 1266451048 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's where your angle is confusing me. < 1266451054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right, the idempotent element does < 1266451094 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266451102 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't believe in Z_6, then hmm... if you know linear algebra, you'll probably know a matrix can be idempotent without being identity? < 1266451107 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What claim of mine are you trying to refute, anyway? < 1266451118 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you can't have idempotent elements < 1266451121 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the thing about Potro on my LoUIE page? < 1266451126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266451135 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying to refure a*b = a isn't possible < 1266451163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if a*a = a is possible (and it is), then a*b = a is possible, so doesn't matter < 1266451187 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah potro < 1266451191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1266451196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1266451233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idempotency is a special case of absorption < 1266451254 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"So this can be used to make algrebraic structures which include absorption like idempotent semirings (which are also called dioids), but rings are not one of those structures." <-- I only mean that rings do not include the axiom a + a = a that is found in idempotent semirings < 1266451262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo < 1266451263 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266451290 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If R is a ring, it's not necessarily true that a + a = a for all a in R. < 1266451299 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it can't be true < 1266451310 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because + forms an abelian group < 1266451311 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what I thought that statement said. < 1266451325 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rings are not one of those structures. That has a + a = a for all a. < 1266451327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought you meant absorption in multiplication < 1266451349 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idempotent semirings don't have that. < 1266451367 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In algebraic terms, the first program absorbs the second during sequential composition." <<< sequential composition = multiplication < 1266451389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you are saying rings can't have ab = a < 1266451401 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may be misusing the term "absorb" there. < 1266451415 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you mean a + b = a? < 1266451430 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that makes no sense in the context, because sequential composition is not addition < 1266451434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in the case that the program b doesn't halt, a * b = b. Not in the general case. If both a and b halt, a * b = c. < 1266451454 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so you were talking about multiplication < 1266451466 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can have ab = a in a ring. < 1266451480 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what you're saying on the page does not make sense. < 1266451488 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so I'll probably reword it. < 1266451547 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you have ab = a in an infinite ring? < 1266451596 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take an idempotent matrix < 1266451664 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it should be simple to construct an example with a!=b, for instance with matrices < 1266451680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume you know matrices form a ring, if you don't, they do < 1266451765 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyo augur < 1266451767 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Well, that's actually very encouraging for the possibility that programs could form a ring with * being sequential composition. You'd just have to have a * b = b for all b that never halt :) < 1266451774 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol hey < 1266451789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna hear something funky cool about english grammar that noone has a great explanation for? < 1266451820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: there's one slight problem tho, the addition must form an abelian group, how were you planning to invert parallelization ;) < 1266451832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parallel is rather naturally abelian, i guess < 1266451838 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yes! < 1266451851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider these two sentences < 1266451853 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try to explain it without a second of thought < 1266451855 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not < 1266451876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which article did mary file ___?" < 1266451877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1266451886 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which article did Mary read the book before filing ___?" < 1266451902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the ___ denotes a gap/missing word associated with "which article" < 1266451908 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first is good, the second is horrible < 1266451924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Can you give an example for ____ in the first case? < 1266451935 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what do you mean? < 1266451965 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Can you provide a word associated with "which article" which you can include in your first sentence in place of the ____ ? < 1266451966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ___ just denotes the space that "article" would normally be found it were this NOT a question < 1266451967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1266451983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mary read the book before filing the article" < 1266452035 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the statement, you find "the article" after "filing", whereas in the sentence you dont. so i'm just putting a ___ to denote where the article phrase would be in a declarative sentence < 1266452072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or really, you can see it as (necessarily) empty position that you understand to be associated with "which article" < 1266452139 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in your first sentence you have the word "file" and in your second sentence you have the word "filing". If your first sentence was "Which article did Mary filing ___?" it would be equally horrible. Moreso, actually. So I'm not sure how it's even a fair comparison. < 1266452145 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second is "Before filing which article did Mary read the book" with which article in the beginning? < 1266452171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: thats irrelevant to the point < 1266452174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i'll read what's been said < 1266452184 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the non-question sentence "Mary read the book before filing the article" is fine < 1266452191 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely lost today, I guess I am :) < 1266452193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not about the verb, its about the gap < 1266452209 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: See, I never bought that question-formation works like that. < 1266452219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether you buy HOW it works is irrelevant < 1266452228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :characterize it in a dependency grammar sense for all i care < 1266452253 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that theres this dependency between "which article" and "filing" in the second sentence which is BAD < 1266452263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but between "which article" and "file" in the first sentence which is FINE < 1266452266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: the sentence looked horrible to me at first, but now i'm kinda getting used to it :P < 1266452278 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: thats ok, thats irrelevant to the point too ;) < 1266452280 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so! < 1266452283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving on to the interesting fact < 1266452291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets mash these two sentences together < 1266452299 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which article did Mary file ___ before reading ___?" < 1266452302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely fine. < 1266452324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did mary file! < 1266452331 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266452333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gap in the "before VERBing ___" clause is suddenly completely fine < 1266452340 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-234-41.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266452366 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266452373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting < 1266452375 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe there was ever a gap there. But I'm sure you'll say that's irrelevant :) < 1266452376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow the adverbial clause gap becomes _acceptable_ when theres also a main clause gap < 1266452387 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: are you fucking listening? < 1266452394 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266452396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the term gap is a purely descriptive tool < 1266452410 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I say it wasn't? < 1266452412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether there was a gap there is irrelevant. describe it, theorize about it, HOWEVER you want < 1266452417 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you did understand the gaps aren't variables, they just describe where the article would be if it wasn't a question? < 1266452425 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you can't actually put anything there < 1266452447 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and by the article i mean "the article" < 1266452448 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: in chomskyan linguistics, the gaps actually _are_ variables, sort of. ;) < 1266452470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you know what i meant :) < 1266452493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, if you did this with CCG there's no such thing as a gap; it all just builds up by function application < 1266452528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is not how you characterize it, the term gap is a purely descriptive phenomena. normally "file" and "read" have direct objects after them, but in questions they dont, so you can describe that as a "gap". < 1266452557 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to take that idea seriously as a part of your theoretical apparatus, fine, if you don't, fine, but the descriptive term is just a descriptive term, used to name a phenomena < 1266452594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it "an atypical location of Direct Object" or a "question position of Direct Object" < 1266452595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont care. < 1266452631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that i've given cpressey the smackdown he so rightly deserved < 1266452637 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just checking that he had an epiphany after asking "cpressey: augur: Can you provide a word associated ..." < 1266452644 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: noone reeeaaally knows how to characterize those sentences < 1266452689 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool. < 1266452705 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266452708 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, i'd appreciate this more if i knew what things do have a good characterization :P < 1266452718 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266452745 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i'd be more interested in this linguistics stuff if i knew anything about linguistics" < 1266452757 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1266452784 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd be interested in this interesting stuff if i knew anything about interest < 1266452819 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we have lots of great ways of describing all sorts of good sentences and bad sentences and why they're good vs. bad < 1266452820 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266452821 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I try to explain that I don't think the concept "where the article would be if it wasn't a question" doesn't really make sense when you < 1266452827 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'re analyzing questions? < 1266452830 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1266452838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no, because it doesnt matter < 1266452841 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you might want to /ignore augur < 1266452842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266452859 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my use of that description was purely to make it easier to understand the issue at hand < 1266452898 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266452912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, and no alternative explanation would help shed any light on it. < 1266452929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was the first thing i tried. < 1266452953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether or not an alternative explanation would help is also irrelevant, because you're bitching about the first thing i tried < 1266452969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which obviously WORKED because you know what the point of it was < 1266452983 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You tried to analyze "file before reading" as an atomic verb? < 1266452988 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you dont like describe it in that fashion is IRRELEVANT to the communicative intent of that phrasing. < 1266452993 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266453023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that wasn't the first thing you tried? < 1266453036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain what you're saying because now _you've_ lost _me_ < 1266453053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shame, I gotta go home. < 1266453058 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See y'all later. < 1266453060 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266453071 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you think of it as an atomic verb, then it seemingly makes sense, say you can't have anything but "which article did mary kill" is ok, "which article did mary file before reading" is ok, the example with the book has "two verbs" < 1266453078 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*say you can't have anything but one verb < 1266453098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its obviously not a single whole unanalyzed verb < 1266453098 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya < 1266453130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which article did Mary file before throwing into the garbage out back?" < 1266453146 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266453158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"file-before-throwing-into-the-garbage-out-back" is now one giant verb! < 1266453278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well i was thinking file needs an object, and because it doesn't get one, you treat it as a lambda which you'll apply "article later", and the same happens with read, and "file before reading" has two lambdas around before, so you make a new verb that forks its argument to both file and read < 1266453289 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure that makes much sense, that's how i just feel like i'm reading it < 1266453302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just how it < 1266453303 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* < 1266453305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aiuoerh < 1266453307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i < 1266453332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it does need a object < 1266453353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you dont need a gap in the second part, right < 1266453376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which article did mary file after reading this book?" < 1266453386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it cant simply be a fork to both lambdas < 1266453436 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if that WERE your explanation for the goodness of the two-gap sentence, then you have to explain why there are two classes of one-gap sentences < 1266453441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO-of-main-verb gaps < 1266453442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which are fine < 1266453453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and DO-of-adjunct-clause-verb gaps which are bad < 1266453469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gtg, ill be back in a bit < 1266453495 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the rule could be that the first verb needs to be the only one that needs the article; makes sense because you only need to remember what's being "whiched" until some other ...subject appears < 1266453552 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so file before reading is okay because you'll make those into one verb, file before reading the book is okay, because when you reach the book, you'll "forget about the article", but your original example has the book, but you still need to remember the article < 1266453588 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that's just what i'd guess, you can probably easily find a counterexample, and i'm not even sure what it is i'm saying, i don't really have a good model of language in my head. < 1266453771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266454680 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266455147 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266455158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok hello < 1266455164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry what was your rule, oklopol? < 1266455294 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, < 1266455294 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00:42 -!- augur [~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] < 1266455396 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: that you only remember what you're "whiching" until there's a first subject, so you just build up a verb that will be applied to "the article" later, until some other subject appears, then you just forget about the article. < 1266455458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you just have "which X does Mary V ..." where V is some verb applied to X, and ... can be any additional info < 1266455465 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like before reading the book) < 1266455670 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but V can also be a fork. i have no idea what it would be in general. < 1266455681 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some sorta lambda < 1266457697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what do you mean a first subject?? < 1266457712 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word being gapped here, which is linked to the WH phrase, isnt a subject, its an object < 1266457721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so please explain in more detail < 1266458456 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, i mean "object other than the one being whiched", not "subject" < 1266458457 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266458538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really what i mean is you can just have one verb after the which, without an object. "which X does Mary V ..." is the only possible structure. < 1266458589 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so always "which object does subject verb", but you can then continue the sentence anyway you like, you just can't add stuff in between < 1266458611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you consider "the article mary read the book before filing" okay? < 1266458626 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just wondering if the "which" is necessary < 1266458667 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no thats horrible too. < 1266458675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its pretty much ANY gapping of that sort < 1266458692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266458696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using a WH phrase was just a convenient way to demonstrate it. < 1266458753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the problem is that the GOOD version has TWO gaps < 1266458775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the article mary has always wanted to read" and stuff work, but "the article mary has a cousin who read" and friends don't work, i think it's the object that does it < 1266458786 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yeah and i explained it with a fork < 1266458790 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems like a strange thing to say that the rule is that once you see a direct object you discard the stored phrase < 1266458814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :secondly, that depends on a specifically linear model, but your fork doesnt, so you have to make them work together < 1266458819 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think it's strange. the verb can just consist of multiple verbs < 1266458826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thirdly, its not just english that allows it, right < 1266458837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other languages have parasitic gaps too, but in the OPPOSITE ORDER < 1266458845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in japanese, for instance, i believe the gap structure is like this: < 1266458872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[___ V before] S ___ V < 1266458882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: secondly, that depends on a specifically linear model, but your fork doesnt, so you have to make them work together" <<< i don't understand this < 1266458904 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way you explained why the bad version is bad depends on the linear order of the words < 1266458916 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt have anything to do with the structure of the sentence < 1266458932 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and crucially, gapping seems to be structurally, not linearly, defined < 1266458953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see. can you give me an example where my idea doesn't work though? < 1266458967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that would be much more enlightening < 1266459075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for english, no, sorry. but im not ENTIRELY clear on your description of the rule, to begin with < 1266459087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, ok, i can probably give you an example without a parasitic gap < 1266459097 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a sentence with a gap that linearly crosses another direct object < 1266459104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those are trivially constructable < 1266459231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that help you understand what i mean? < 1266459240 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1266459252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would be a counterexample to my rule < 1266459294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could always say that your rule only applies to PGs ;P < 1266459304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so for example < 1266459307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in my rule, which i do not claim i understand that clearly myself, you can't have a gap crossing any other object, the gap always comes right away. < 1266459336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did [the man that john saw] speak to ___? < 1266459344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266459353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or well < 1266459361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt cross an in-place object < 1266459361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266459369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did [the man that saw john] speak to ___? < 1266459376 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "john" in this one is the object < 1266459387 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you talking about language? < 1266459388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as anyone can tell, these constructions have nothing to do with linear order < 1266459400 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, no language seems to care about linear order, as far as anyone knows < 1266459402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yes < 1266459550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh but i'd just apply my rule recursively, "the man that john saw" is okay, gap before direct object, then "who did X speak to" is okay, gap before direct object. < 1266459605 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok but how do you characterize the domain of applicability then < 1266459626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then how do you get the fact that in other languages the order doesnt matter to PGs < 1266459698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you define PG = parasitic gap, is it just this general concept of gap? < 1266459719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a parasitic gap is the second gap in "which article did mary file ___ before reading ___" < 1266459731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where if it were the only gap, it would be bad, but because of the presence of the first gap, it becomes good < 1266459766 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't explain other languages, because i don't know them < 1266459771 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait i know finnish < 1266459773 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see < 1266459781 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you dont need to know another language that does this :P < 1266459787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to realize that its not linear order < 1266459844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its not about objects, either, you can cross subjects too < 1266459869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: ok but how do you characterize the domain of applicability then" <<< always applies < 1266459888 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no i mean what is the domain that you recursively apply this to < 1266459905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the object that is recursively analyzed < 1266459916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i dunno... i just think "the man that saw john" is a normal subject < 1266459916 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not simply all substrings of the sentence, obviously < 1266459924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofcourse its a normal subject < 1266459999 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what we have is an instance of the pattern "who did X speak to", which is okay, and X is okay as well; i guess i'd say if there's any parsing that makes it work, it works. < 1266460060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but what im asking is how do you know what to look at when you're asking what is ok < 1266460073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're segmenting the sentence into two domains to investigate < 1266460078 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did X speak to < 1266460079 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1266460082 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the man that saw john < 1266460084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not, say < 1266460087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did the man that < 1266460087 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1266460091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saw john speak to < 1266460113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if there's any parsing that makes it work, it works.", segment it into any amount of domains, if it works with some segmentation, it works. < 1266460157 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant just say if theres ANY segmentation that makes it work < 1266460176 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not, is it obviously false? < 1266460200 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which file did mary read the book before filing ___" < 1266460204 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :segment this into two parts < 1266460218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which file did Mary VP before filing ___ < 1266460226 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and VP = read the book < 1266460232 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus in VP theres no violation < 1266460237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i don't think this phenomenon happens on the same level as parsing, i think i already know it's "who did [the man that saw john] speak to ___?" when i start thinking about gaps, so the recursion works < 1266460239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266460240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in the other one theres no violation < 1266460283 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no violation in VP, but there is in "which file did Mary VP before filing ___", therefore it doesn't work. < 1266460289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no there isnt < 1266460296 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure there is, VP has an object < 1266460303 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but so does X in yours! < 1266460316 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, yes < 1266460322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me think, maybe you're right < 1266460435 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh but umm, even though X does have an object, the "type of X" is clearly just a subject. the type of "Mary VP before filing" is not a verb, and does not fit the pattern "which file did mary verb before filing" < 1266460447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what does that have to do with it < 1266460457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why i said whats the domain of these analyses < 1266460481 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if i can just choose any object in the syntax to separate along, e.g. the VP, then theres no problem < 1266460495 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm saying there is a violation in "which file did Mary VP before filing ___", because it's not of the form "which file did mary V ...", which is the only allowed pattern. < 1266460513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean the only allowed pattern < 1266460553 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that all sentences that start with "which file did mary " must be followed by a verb without an object, forming a lambda that's then applied to "file". < 1266460611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "Mary VP before filing" isn't a lambda in this case, i don't know why it isn't, my guess was that VP contains an object, i just know verbs are, and certain forks are. < 1266460638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not true tho < 1266460642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which file did mary ask john about < 1266460666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which person did mary talk to john about < 1266460683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did mary give the pot to < 1266460686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc etc < 1266460708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not questioning the subject does not mean questioning the object < 1266460723 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what building did mary read the book in < 1266460800 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first ones i think roughly follow my idea, the last one doesn't < 1266460849 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's okay to have another object before the gap because it isn't a verb that's applied to building, there's a preposition < 1266460920 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if you feel like i'm on the wrong track, i'll just trust on your intuition even if i don't trust in your counterexamples. < 1266460937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably i haven't solved the problem if linguists haven't. < 1266460938 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who did mary tell john about < 1266460949 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell obviously can take a person as a direct object < 1266460951 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well again < 1266460952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who can be that object < 1266460953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell takes two args < 1266460964 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"so tell john about" is just a one-arg verb < 1266460975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266460975 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i still don't think that's a counterexample < 1266460979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no its not < 1266460985 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it IS a counter example < 1266460992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your rule does not rule it out < 1266460995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"to tell john about X" is a verb with one argument < 1266461005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"to tell john about X" is not a verb < 1266461010 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1266461018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a whole fucking phrase :P < 1266461028 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its also an infinitival subjectless sentence < 1266461042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and again, Japanese. < 1266461055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Irish. < 1266461095 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd just say tell is a verb that takes two right arguments, in "to tell john about" you've just curried the first one < 1266461149 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's this about Japanese? < 1266461155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean what the fuck does it even matter if that's not something that usually makes sense, if it makes sense in this case, i have fitted your counterexample in my model. < 1266461181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more like it already fit in it, i just probably have a weird model of language in my head because i don't know any of your fancy linguistics stuff. < 1266461182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION logreads < 1266461230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yeah, that is the gap structure of Japanese. < 1266461276 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ok, let me put it to you this way < 1266461298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"who did mary give the pot to" how is this not a direct application of my idea? "give the pot to" is a verb with one argument < 1266461302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give me a full _algorithm_ that is not ambiguous or vague. < 1266461336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: fine, but then the VP in the bad sentence is ALSO a verb with one argument < 1266461355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "give the pot to" is a two argument verb < 1266461360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the object of giveing-pot-to < 1266461362 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the subject < 1266461364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait right < 1266461373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't notice, because it doesn't matter < 1266461378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266461384 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just shift the argument number up one < 1266461389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but umm < 1266461414 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are right about the VP thing, my rule is pretty vague < 1266461419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is, the linear ordering doesnt matter < 1266461429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because other languages with different linear ordering have the SAME constraint < 1266461496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont try to solve it oklopol, its not an easy problem to solve :p < 1266461517 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i can't really explain why "Mary does something before filing ___" is not okay while "mary tells john about ___" is, i can just explain why the latter one clearly is (currying). < 1266461531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah true < 1266461545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its not just "does something" right < 1266461586 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its "does something" where that phrase, whatever it is, doesnt have a gapped item < 1266461592 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not even direct object, right < 1266461601 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which book did mary tell john about ___ before reading ___" < 1266461622 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which book did mary see ___ burn to pieces after reading ___" < 1266461625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266461635 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho interestingly, not the other way around < 1266461662 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which book did mary read ___ before ___ burnt/burning" < 1266461685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that's not okay? < 1266461753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not on the reading where the book just spontaneously burnt to pieces < 1266461754 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"augur: its "does something" where that phrase, whatever it is, doesnt have a gapped item" yeah as i said, it's okay if it results in a one-arg verb, otherwise not. gap = one-arg verb < 1266461761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was mary doing the burning then sure its fine < 1266461775 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which book did mary read ___ before ___ fell/falling shut" < 1266461788 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1266461823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not saying it doesnt have to do with the VP being a one-arg/two-arg thing right < 1266461830 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im saying it doesnt have to do with the LINEAR ORDER < 1266461904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe i'm not understanding correctly what you mean by linear order, you mean it can't be the case that it actually wants the gap to be just to the right of the "which article" thingie, but that the reason must have to do with something else? < 1266461963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it has nothing to do with the dependency crossing an object < 1266461986 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try to construct a different example < 1266462035 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mary read the book before filing yesterday the article" is bad where yesterday modifies "read" < 1266462050 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mary read before filing yesterday the article" is fine where yesterday modifies "read" < 1266462052 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266462070 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in this case "the article" is to the right of its gap < 1266462088 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the dependency doesnt cross another direct object < 1266462094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet its still unacceptable < 1266462143 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sentence is not of the form "the X that ...", i don't directly see what these have to do with each other < 1266462164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither is the original! < 1266462181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah it was "which" < 1266462182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"which article did mary read the book before filing" is not of the form "the X that ..." either < 1266462182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing < 1266462194 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the article mary read the book before filing" < 1266462194 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we already established that it has nothing to do with the "which" < 1266462210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1266462222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just showed you that the CONSTRAINT STILL APPLIES < 1266462228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet your description of the required sentence DOESNT < 1266462255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have failed to explain the phenomena because you have no explanation for the RIGHTWARD filler-gap badness < 1266462267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my description was only about cases where you have some sort of "the X that ..." or "which X ..." < 1266462274 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and thats the problem < 1266462278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree < 1266462285 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your description ONLY explains the leftward filler-gap case < 1266462289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the rightward one < 1266462314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more generally, its OBVIOUSLY got nothing to do with the direction --- the violations are EXACTLY the same regardless of direction < 1266462324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even think "mary read before filing yesterday the article" is a good sentence. < 1266462334 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you might need a heavier NP < 1266462350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"mary read before filing yesterday every TPS report that had been left on her desk in the last week" < 1266462371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, i see < 1266462375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly me < 1266462378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that parses just fine. < 1266462405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just seems very unusual with that syntax structure and having only a single noun as the object of "read". < 1266462415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5yeah < 1266462434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it longer, and it's magically idiomatic. < 1266462443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Not the correct word in this context. < 1266462443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266462451 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rightward extraposition is almost always done for weightedness of the phrase being moved < 1266462455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magically normal-seeming. < 1266462457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There we go. < 1266462572 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also need the right intonation < 1266462575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats another thing, right < 1266462586 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes without the correct intonation a sentence will sound horrible < 1266462591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to go do some homework, i admit i have no idea how to solve the problem in that sort of sentence, cya. < 1266462601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, certainly. < 1266462608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, dont worry, noone else does either :) < 1266462616 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: presumably its because intonation indicates structure < 1266462633 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so without the right intonation, you're just not conveying the right structure, so it IS bad < 1266462643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yeah. < 1266462657 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1266462664 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i usually draw parentheses in the air with my hands with complicated sentences < 1266462665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the problem with language, we cant enforce a structure, we have to use this linear mechanism < 1266462670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the question is ALL about structure < 1266462685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: sure, but that also sort of doesnt work with the average person < 1266462701 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know, it's kinda funny... It seems to me many people have this odd idea that intonation is limited to various Asian languages... (Y'know, since Chinese is tonal and all) < 1266462718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though there's probably not a language *without* intonation being significant in some way. < 1266462738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if there is a language without significant intonation, its name is Lojban.) < 1266462740 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no no intonation isnt what people think is limited to many asian languages < 1266462746 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather, TONE is < 1266462749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not just but < 1266462752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Right. < 1266462753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english doesnt have TONE < 1266462757 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has intonation < 1266462761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two are not the same < 1266462763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Intonation is merely ignored. < 1266462771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1266462796 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Sorry. Minor bit of confusion there. < 1266462800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really should know better. < 1266462810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't tone that questions have in the end? < 1266462828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: well, intonation and tone are closely related < 1266462846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that both are primary tone, right < 1266462855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so questions have high intonation at the end of them, usually < 1266462873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but tone is a property of words or syllables < 1266462884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266462908 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i don't know what primary tone is, but otherwise < 1266462915 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1266462935 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the tone at the end of questions is mostly ignored as well < 1266462936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the tone underlying the harmonics < 1266463040 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay sleep and/or homework < 1266463041 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266463058 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya < 1266463270 0 :SimonRC_!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266463640 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266463674 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@174-29-91-32.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266463799 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266464304 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266464394 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266465281 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266465716 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1266465725 0 :pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Pthing < 1266465780 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266465812 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266466030 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1266466140 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266466313 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1266466336 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266467249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266467492 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266467540 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266467953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266469693 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266470211 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266470709 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@174-29-91-32.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266470846 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266471609 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1266471861 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266471905 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266472480 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266472552 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266473329 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266475388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Verily So < 1266476203 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266476768 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266479895 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266479942 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266479999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266480000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266480825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swedish This is an example sentence right here. < 1266480830 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thees is un ixemple-a suntunce-a reeght here-a. \ Bork Bork Bork! < 1266481593 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266481650 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-108-27.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266481820 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-27.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266482001 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266483810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266483834 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266484058 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266484230 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266484278 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266486281 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266488364 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266488504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266488546 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266488547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a piet/bf polygot? I do think it would actually be possible, since bf ignores anything but +-<>[],. < 1266488577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as long as the image header or such requires that there is unbalanced [] in it or similar it should be possible < 1266488601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/such requires/such doesn't require/ < 1266488651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a piet quine also sounds quite interesting < 1266488807 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266489854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266489885 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266490454 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266490701 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you use the PPM image format, a piet/bf polyglot is boringly trivial: the PPM format is ascii-based, the "header" is just the string "P3", all the data is just decimal digits and newlines ignored by bf, and lines starting with # are PPM comments, so you can stick any brainfuck program there. < 1266490766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm, what format is usually used for piet? < 1266490771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :png? bmp? ppm? < 1266490778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know, png would be my guess. < 1266490782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266490793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a piet quine sounds more interesting < 1266490892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Or maybe even a multistage quine, where you have a .png file that's a Piet program that outputs a .bmp, which is a Piet program that outputs a .tiff, which is a Piet program that outputs the original .png. < 1266490901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266490923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds nontrivial to write, though. < 1266491100 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266495552 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266498236 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266499609 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nono you should make a chain of piet programs p1 ... pn s.t. pi outputs p(i+1), pn outputs p1, and they form an animation of some sort < 1266499620 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a dancing dude < 1266499656 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266499931 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I am sure that sooner or later that sort of thing (incl. a Piet browser plugin to run them) will deprecate Flash for doing animated web ads. < 1266500048 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably also interactive stuff < 1266501048 0 :paramananda!~Peyu@cable-115-247.multi-speed.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266501609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely suspects paramananda is in the wrong channel < 1266501632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is for esoteric programming languages, nothing to do with swamis of any kind :D < 1266501768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think we have yet found a good esotericism channel to point people to < 1266501866 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266501868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm actually according to http://irc.netsplit.de/chat/esoteric.php, the #esoteric at DalNet looks promising < 1266501882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*DALnet < 1266501937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, apart from having just 1 user, that is < 1266501953 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266501999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/details.php?room=%23esoteric&net=DALnet shows that being the mac < 1266502002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :max < 1266502105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rusnet one looks more promising actually (8 users), but you'd have to know russian < 1266502238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(topic transliterates as "ezoterika, mistika, magiya") < 1266503447 0 :paramananda!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266504046 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266505014 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who said anything about swamis? < 1266505057 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google paramananda < 1266505063 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swami Paramananda (1884-1940) was one of the early Indian teachers who came to the United States to spread the Vedanta philosophy and religion in America. ... \ [13]Biography - [14]Works - [15]Books on and by Swami Paramananda < 1266505091 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1266505116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the -ananda is usually a dead giveaway :D < 1266505131 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I have to get ready to go to school < 1266505730 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266506023 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266506973 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266507213 0 :Suprano!~marenz@p5B0849DD.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266507237 0 :Suprano!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266507470 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fungot < 1266507471 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: i don't know anyone who speaks latin would like to join in r.a.w...? < 1266507490 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reductio ad whateverum < 1266507558 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266507576 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, fungot, count me in < 1266507576 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: deleted by fnord white user fnord 19:56, 20 october 2006 ( utc < 1266507602 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: i was deleted?! < 1266507603 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: ' ' ' < 1266507621 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: fungot < 1266507622 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: operation blue star: this was the first black man to receive a kbe. but, unfortunately the error function. but is the constitution the enabling act, or < 1266507657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1266507658 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube < 1266507712 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fungot can be set to a style, can it? < 1266507737 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style lovecraft < 1266507738 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) < 1266507756 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: hey there, how's it hangin'? < 1266507778 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: fungot < 1266507790 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style speeches < 1266507791 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) < 1266507819 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what is the only thing to fear? < 1266508394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: stop ignoring deschutron please < 1266508396 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: gentlemen, flushed with hope, burning with animosity, they agree in their votes, so to speak, or for iphicrates in the field, and in the course of athenian education, the administration of justice. < 1266508432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it has a five response consecutive limit per person) < 1266508442 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1266508478 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: what is the only thing to fear? < 1266508480 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: the great french soldier, de fnord fnord fnord atque fnord fnord, saw the royal family: so as on one hand, and caused the seal of that great people were peculiar to themselves, the interest became still more absorbing. the fnord understanding, the rudest hand, is not a good hat, and asked me who had been talking prose all their lives without knowing anything of the sort since he built the tower of babel. the foreign < 1266508531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnords to live by < 1266508534 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tr~lx@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au: what an ignorance of human nature, that whoever takes a view of the court of louis. he was in truth a monster in jurisprudence. it signifies nothing whether a court for this purpose too the druids performed all their ceremonies in the bosom of france itself; we have been speaking had been members of large communities, and of which he had knocked down osborne and bidden defiance to < 1266508534 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol "the great french soldier, de fnord fnord fnord atque fnord fnord" < 1266508554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck? < 1266508611 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he must have noticed me quoting him < 1266508626 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adam.com.au is my isp < 1266508672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's a bug in that... < 1266508682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i thought this channel censored colors < 1266508711 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266508771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +[.+] < 1266508772 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : . . !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... < 1266508811 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, my client interpreted that as a CTCP < 1266508816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine too < 1266508816 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with colour codes in! < 1266508840 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i got no color (other than inverse video). hm... < 1266508843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ++[.+] < 1266508844 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : . . !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ ... < 1266508851 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1266508892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact that was what i wanted to test. why did the one above (just befor scarf joined) have colors? < 1266508900 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got no colour on that < 1266508926 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got no colour on the one before scarf joined < 1266508926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, i did. blue on black. < 1266508955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's just bold + inverted in my terminal < 1266508957 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm using pidgin < 1266508958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1266508960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irssi < 1266509050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, it was a strange bug - fungot giving a malformed response to deschutron without deschutron saying anything (afaict) < 1266509052 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: speusippus. to sup with fnord. i have that inward and dignified consciousness of my own meditation. with eyes dimmed with fond and melancholy tears, she leaned over the fnord, if more and better food is any standard of melioration. they work more, it was the duty of such a compliment; and therefore, in a general way to know why he was in power, and that < 1266509068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fnords to live by < 1266509087 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266509119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it was that the long response it was already giving got broken up into two lines somehow... < 1266509127 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the great french soldier, de fnord fnord fnord atque fnord fnord" < 1266509155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: i saw that after fungot's weird response, last time < 1266509156 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the objectors, education among the people for that object. they wish us to do is a mysterious and searching question which those may answer who know what it is. < 1266509194 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266509210 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sent it before i received his weird response < 1266509344 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266509404 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way oerjan, i like your language CHIQRSX9+ < 1266509411 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that last fungot quote, btw < 1266509412 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: nothing is more natural than that the parliament has possessed great power in the democracy under napoleon. napoleon might probably have lacked the information that certain monsters of virtue ever had existence. but it is not in the power of the keys of the fortress on his knees is daily studied, no sectarian ill-will nor narrow human dogma is permitted to do it. < 1266509440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266509501 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i came across it recently. < 1266509531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, food -> < 1266509584 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food? < 1266509661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, there's a sort of a "known bug" in that sometimes fungot gives partially corrupted spurious replies. It's proven to be a bit of a heisenbug. < 1266509663 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: revolution, the french monarchy so low in the scale upon which they will intrigue to obtain, or of negligence scarcely less culpable. mr mitford has nevertheless told without any qualification, and at once the grand distinction to be asked to come amongst you. this is the subject of representation; much on the art of cementing the ties of party had superseded those of country, have been more pleasing. i shall introduce < 1266509828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: i'd been forgetting to eat < 1266509862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i was wondering if it was related to having very long replies that get split somehow? < 1266509882 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1266509901 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know the feeling < 1266509924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It is possible that the reply-generation overflows something, yes. I don't remember if I have a hard limit for the number of tokens there, it has a stopping probability that grows as the number of already generated tokens increases though. < 1266509977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well does the formula for the stopping probability ever reach 1? < 1266510001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise it's at least possible to grow without limit < 1266510060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, it's not completely trivial to read from the code. And I think it still will only stop if the model permits that, so if there's a nonzero-probability "loop" (context-wise, I mean) of nodes in the n-gram graph that do not have the "can stop" flag, it's possible to get stuck. < 1266510083 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might also be that there's a sensible limit of tokens, but the token → text conversion overwrites something. < 1266510084 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1266510085 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube < 1266510139 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a feeling the speechification might have a larger average token length that something like IRC. But that's just a guess. < 1266510186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sesquipedalian loquaciousness, you mean < 1266510194 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that. < 1266510661 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266511368 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I reworded http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html#Potro -- hopefully it's clearer now. < 1266511695 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132F5B.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266511742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbh i'm still not completely happy with it :P < 1266511761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just thinking about "Unfortunately, we would need ..." < 1266511763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1266511770 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just append them, and it halts it if halts < 1266511796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't actually have to know, because you can't invert programs anyway < 1266511799 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1266511818 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, I think I am still thinking along those lines. < 1266511864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, I suspect it's something to do with distributivity. I'll try to work it out. < 1266512487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try using it in a sentence < 1266512660 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm kind of working from an insight I had while working out Cabra. But I'm starting to think whatever that insight was, it was depending on + meaning parallel execution. < 1266512815 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say program a always halts but program b never halts. < 1266512844 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a ring, (a + b) * c = (a * c) + (b * c) < 1266512857 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But b never halts, so b * c = b < 1266512865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that still seems fine. < 1266512879 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a little weird I guess. (a + b) * c = (a * c) + b < 1266512944 0 :oklogon!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266513060 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266513139 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Damn, this might actually work! < 1266513278 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not sure about that now. Say a never halts, b never halts, c always halts. Then: a * (b + c) = (a * b) + (a * c) = a + a. But: (a + b) * c = (a * c) + (b * c) = a + b. < 1266513304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait. Maybe that's OK. < 1266513324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing says a * (b + c) = (a + b) * c :) < 1266513427 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so. I admit, it looks like * in a ring could be pretty well suited to being sequential execution. < 1266513543 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess the bigger problems, now, are with making + commutative and invertible and non-absorptive. < 1266513668 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having a + b = b + a where a always halts and b never halts pretty much drives the semantics of + towards something parallel. < 1266513813 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait again. < 1266513817 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, need more coffee. < 1266513980 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-47-173.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266514137 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266514173 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266514422 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it OK for every element of a ring to be its own additive inverse? a + a = e for all a? < 1266514433 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266514466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, those are rings of characteristic 2 iirc < 1266514480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice. Then I might have an idea. < 1266514564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you have a 1, and 1+1 = 0, then it follows automatically for everything else) < 1266514652 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you and your "iirc" :P < 1266514723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_(algebra) < 1266514790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: well i did bump into it the other day during one of our discussions < 1266514818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure if i knew the term applied to non-fields before < 1266514891 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm well true i've never heard it with anything but fields < 1266514977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would seem to include at least boolean rings among other things i already knew about < 1266515541 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266515724 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, problem: additive inverses don't seem to play well with absorption. Say a never halts. Then a * (b + c) = a. Then a = (a * b) + (a * c) = a + a. So a = e. < 1266515752 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although, that does suggest the possibility of just making e = bottom :) < 1266515838 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266515967 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That* derivation is why it's so nice to have an algebra that gives you a + a = a. < 1266516198 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266516303 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose doing something in parallel with something that never halts is pretty equivalent to doing it alone, intuitively, if you go by something like what results you eventually get... < 1266516501 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multithread with one process checking the other to see if it ever loops < 1266516568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: also, e is intuitively additive 0, while bottom is intuitively multiplicative 0 < 1266516608 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yeah. I banged my head repeatedly against this particular wall while designing Cabra. < 1266516980 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266517265 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zoo time < 1266518056 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hate to keep asking these things, but is it OK for every element of a ring to be idempotent wrt addition? a + a = a for all a? < 1266518083 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1266518100 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + a = a <==> a = 0 < 1266518108 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, because then what is a' in a + a' = 0. Right. < 1266518110 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by adding the additive inverse < 1266518125 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to get from left to right) < 1266518143 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266518149 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that < 1266518156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why it's hard to get a ring. < 1266518218 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually - forget "all a". Say there exist idempotent b and c, where b + b = b and c + c = c. Can b =/= c? < 1266518232 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. < 1266518275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + a = a <==> a = 0, so b = c. < 1266518293 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, b = c = 0 < 1266518336 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there can only ever be one element where a + a = a. But if there is any "absorbative" element x where forall y, xy = x, then x + x = x. < 1266518355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there can only be one "absorbative" element. < 1266518373 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There is probably a better word for "absorbative") < 1266518398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :projections ? < 1266518484 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe projection... not sure. < 1266518511 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-108-27.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266518536 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that means there can only be one program that never halts. Or, all programs that never halt are considered equivalent. < 1266518537 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see why "x where forall y, xy = x" wouldn't be possible, < 1266518568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "zero" < 1266518588 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i completely ignored the x + x = x < 1266518722 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. < 1266518725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: also, if two programs x and y never halt, then x = xy = y < 1266518761 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1266518767 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a name for an algebraic system with an infinity? < 1266518806 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for all programs x, there needs to exist a unique x' such that x + x' = 0. If bottom is zero, then x' is not unique. < 1266518812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: i've got this on my watchlist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_theory < 1266518818 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-halting could be infinity < 1266518882 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: If addition is commutative, you'd need negative infinity too. < 1266518936 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the part where i ask for the name of such a structure was my main point < 1266518982 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: Sorry, thinking of it in the context of my current train of thought. I don't know if such things have a specific name. < 1266519033 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kleene star is a kind of infinity, maybe. < 1266519249 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i'll have to check that out in-depth, would the extension of reals be the extended reals? < 1266519273 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, kleene star is a value? < 1266519298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I should say, it's a kind of infinity-generating-operator-thing. < 1266519310 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266519374 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266519415 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say 0 is bottom. Then a + 0 = a (where a =/= 0) means something like "run a in parallel with loops-forever, take a's result when done." a * 0 = 0 means something like "run loops-forever after a". Both are good. < 1266519420 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then, for a there is some a' where a + a' = 0. But what could you run in parallel with a that would equate to loops-forever? Maybe something that interferes with a (and only a) in such a way that causes a to loop forever. < 1266519420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon: i'm not quite sure what it is, although there is at least both distinct 1/0 and 0/0 iirc < 1266519479 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a watchlist < 1266519507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon, on irc? < 1266519515 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on wp < 1266519518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has not read context < 1266519534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you could think of 0 more as "never gives a result", in which case looping forever may not be mandatory < 1266519538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon, oh that, a way to "subscribe" to edits to certain pages < 1266519539 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe it makes Wikipedia message you somehow whenever the page changes. < 1266519561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that description is basically a simplification, but you get the idea) < 1266519576 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that may be an option, although i just visit my watchlist page... < 1266519578 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, then a' is the "result killer" of a (and only a) < 1266519587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes it will also email you (there is a setting iirc for that) < 1266519599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(grammar fail) < 1266519626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogon, hm have you used your current nick before? < 1266519630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember seeing it < 1266519664 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's new < 1266519666 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol < 1266519669 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what you might want then, is for results to form a group < 1266519670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it sounds like the name of a noble gas < 1266519681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a' gives the inverse result of a < 1266519685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm thinking of argon and such < 1266519740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, that sounds like a good way to proceed. < 1266519789 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Maybe food will help me think. bbl. < 1266519800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly an oklogon is a polygon with strange non-euclidean angles < 1266519804 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oklogon" must be some sort of an irr{egular,esponsive,ational,everent} shape, by way of analogy from polygon. < 1266519812 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gaah, oerjan strikes faster again. < 1266519854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that was supposed to be irresponsible, not some strange "irresponsive". A compound fracture, I mean, failure. < 1266519971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a fractal compound < 1266519992 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :farctal < 1266520288 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Problem: We say b + 0 = b means "when b finishes, take its result". What if we have b + x, and b finishes before x. Do we take b's result or do we wait for x? If x is 0, we can't wait for it. But x might not be 0, so we have to wait for it. < 1266520303 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just reliving Cabra :) < 1266520310 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Away for lunch for real this time. < 1266520341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the result only becomes known asymptotically < 1266520398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose this could be a problem if it never stabilizes < 1266521326 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266522057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or another way to put it would be, you need an oracle. if you have that, or you restrict the set to programs that always halt, I don't think there's a huge problem. < 1266522084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266522142 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say 0 maps all tapes to blank tapes, and programs refuse to run when the tape is blank. Obviously the initial tape can't always be blank, but whatever. 1 is the identity function on tapes. < 1266522179 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, a + b -> run both and add their tapes. a * b -> run a then b. < 1266522193 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err yes, obviously the -gon is from polygon < 1266522199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were both slow < 1266522215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was also oktagon at some point < 1266522220 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION quickly swats oklopol -----### < 1266522222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly not here tho < 1266522296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that won't distribute (a + b) * c properly unless c is linear < 1266522304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Re wheels: it reminded me of an algebra I considered once, over the reals - {0}. Division, multiplication, addition are defined everywhere, but subtraction is not. < 1266522330 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hm, I think you're right. < 1266522377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition? how does that work? < 1266522397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean positive reals < 1266522443 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, yeah. Addition of numbers with the same sign. (If subtraction is not defined, then neither is addition of different-parity numbers.) < 1266522464 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addition of the numbers with the same sign? so it's a partial algebra < 1266522503 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually in an algebraic structure every function should be defined for all inputs < 1266522507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/parity/sign/. don't know what i'm saying :) < 1266522518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that was clear < 1266522527 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I was inspired by division by zero being undefined in the reals. < 1266522534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(parity and sign are the same group) < 1266522595 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|a| + |b| and -|a| + -|b| are defined, and you could consider them two new operations. < 1266522596 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Q\0 and R\0 are both abelian groups w.r.t. multiplication, it's just adding the addition doesn't make, afaict, make it any known structure < 1266522626 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you already have subtraction because -|a| + -|b| can be negative < 1266522629 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's partial < 1266522638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some functions defined only for some inputs) < 1266522674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway i need to go to sleep < 1266522758 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, |a| + |b| and -|a| + -|b| are defined everywhere, but |a| + -|b| and -|a| + |b| are not defined everywhere. Maybe the terms "addition" and "subtraction" are misleading in this context. < 1266522786 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Night oklopol. < 1266522894 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: From the Cabra doc: "I will go so far as to conjecture that, in fact, any semantics for parallel composition a+b (in an otherwise Cabra-like language) that combines results from both a and b will not be right-distributive." < 1266522941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might be hard to get around, even for only the programs that always halt. < 1266522970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right the problem is how to run c on the results < 1266522981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it can do anything with them < 1266523144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the * operation needs to distribute the multiple/negated results from the left part to different invocations of the right part < 1266524265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266525987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "oklogon" must be some sort of an irr{egular,esponsive,ational,everent} shape, by way of analogy from polygon. <-- possibly discworld related? < 1266526174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, couldn't you do addition with different sign as long as you don't have the same value on both sides? < 1266526217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I completely misunderstood you < 1266526242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all 1 + (-42) = -41, but 1 + (-1) = 0, so the former case should work but the latter not? < 1266526272 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266526807 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266527199 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. It is defined, just not defined everywhere. Specifically a - a isn't defined. A bit like a / 0. < 1266527261 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I updated the Potro bit of my LoUIE page again, FWIW with the algebra fans asleep. :) < 1266527281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed < 1266527400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was a nice "dual" of a field in some sense. < 1266527594 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be a partial algebra, but if that's true, fields are partial algebras too. < 1266530208 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266532044 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266532368 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i solved it. < 1266532376 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266532486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, for R_+ \ {0} shouldn't addition, multiplication and division all be completely defined? Not substraction for a - b where b >= a though < 1266532512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oerjan wasn't connected when you said that < 1266532514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, as oklopol pointed out, x + y isn't defined when x = -1 * y < 1266532532 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, hey I think you are right < 1266532538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers that < 1266532545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wut? I must be too tired < 1266532560 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = -1 * y can't happen in R_+ \ {0} (aka R_+) < 1266532564 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Addition is subtraction when you have opposite sign values :) < 1266532570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well yeah < 1266532574 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh sorry < 1266532581 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't see the + in R_+ < 1266532584 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R_+ meaning all positive reals (although some people use positive to include zero, when it's convenient..) < 1266532587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right < 1266532601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well I also added "\ {0}" after that < 1266532607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should clearly exclude zero < 1266532628 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, your statement about R_+\{0} is true. < 1266532628 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266532637 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you saying that I can tell you added \ {0} by reading < 1266532647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, what? < 1266532659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even parse the grammar of that, nor the meaning < 1266532690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some comma is missing? < 1266532760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would it be possible to make some set where addition, multiplication, division are all defined for all possible combinations of values? < 1266532790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the empty set that is ;P < 1266532852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternative: define what division by zero means < 1266532873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I suggest we "leave it to the reader/ask the user" ;P < 1266532962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Isn't R+_\{0} such a set? < 1266532999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, as I said, substraction is not < 1266533009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266533011 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, did you mean to include subtraction? < 1266533012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot that from the list < 1266533013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266533014 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1266533015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes < 1266533078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to me that subtraction and division are mutually exclusive when it comes to "defined for all values" < 1266533091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. < 1266533093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't prove this though < 1266533103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well the exception would be for the empty set of course < 1266533124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think that even makes sense < 1266533149 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every operation on elements of the empty set is well-defined! :) < 1266533170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you could sometimes define division by zero as the limit when going towards zero I guess < 1266533184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work for all possible functions though < 1266533194 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266533194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(such as constant functions) < 1266533228 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm not so happy with that. < 1266533231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or diverging (sp?) functions < 1266533331 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266533348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, other things not to be happy with: that lim_{x→0}(sin(1/x)) is undefined. < 1266533353 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-198-20.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266533365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same for lim_{x→0}((sin(1/x))') of course < 1266533443 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266533523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why not add a NaN? Like we have i < 1266533532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, make NaN a real number < 1266533536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266533548 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NaN + NaN = NaN < 1266533559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, same goes for aleph_0 though < 1266533560 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore NaN = 0 < 1266533568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, err no < 1266533576 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in context of ring theory stuff I was talking about earlier only :) < 1266533587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by that logic aleph_0 + aleph_0 = aleph_0 gives aleph_0 = 0 < 1266533594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is ridiculous < 1266533692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Earlier we were talking about how in a ring, if a + a = a, a must be 0. < 1266533792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which might explain why aleph_0 doesn't often appear in the ring of reals. < 1266533821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true < 1266533843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, neither does i. Since it by definition isn't a real < 1266533852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but then the complex numbers are not a ring? < 1266533864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266533866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be < 1266533876 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could define 1/0 as 1/0, irreducible. Basically, work on pairs of integers. < 1266533887 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably falls apart somewhere. < 1266533887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266533912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't do complex numbers. :) < 1266533927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1266533935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you should do quaternions even < 1266533941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, they just never held any interest for me < 1266533982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about calculations with alternating current? They are rather useful there < 1266534011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe you don't do that kind of stuff < 1266534165 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1266534193 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, complex numbers might come in handy for computational induction. < 1266534202 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm? < 1266534215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1266534224 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction like electromagnetic currents < 1266534259 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. < 1266534293 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is an extremely silly idea. But fun. < 1266534378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. <-- I first thought "what are you messing around with by doing induction over an uncountable set" < 1266534395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! Ugh. < 1266534423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is that possible btw? < 1266534429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see how it would be < 1266534442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I've heard of "transfinite induction" but I don't know if it's the same thing. < 1266534450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1266534453 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION defers to the real mathematicians present < 1266534469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oerjan is *not* present < 1266534511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. <-- you should make an esolang based on this < 1266534511 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then I defer to wikipedia. < 1266534512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfinite_induction < 1266534518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, alternating ips < 1266534520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1266534553 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to make an esolang of it, but I have too many other ideas, and no good idea where to start. < 1266534615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so throw all the ideas into one esolang < 1266534645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried that. It's not pretty. < 1266534653 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it never gets finished. < 1266534972 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266535318 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from * import * < 1266535422 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266535438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, does that work in python? < 1266535454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be rather interesting if it did < 1266535677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas, you can't have wildcards in the module-where-to-import-from. < 1266535687 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266535839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but I was (briefly) considering supporting it in my own language... < 1266535916 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266536223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I can think of reasons not to < 1266536333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1266536428 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, the awesomeness. < 1266536433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Just import everything." < 1266536587 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about #include <*> as a GCC extension? Read all headers in the system include directories. < 1266536646 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266536653 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the go slow button < 1266536690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: YES < 1266536694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include "**" too < 1266536700 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Include every header file in . < 1266536701 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursively < 1266536844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ ls /usr/include/*.h | sed -e 's%/usr/include/%#include <%' -e 's/$/>/' > test.c < 1266536844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ gcc -c -o test.o test.c 2>&1 | grep 'error:' | wc -l < 1266536844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1144 < 1266536966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1266537059 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-198-20.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266537182 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266537515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blahaha. < 1266537609 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My binding is bound to a binding. < 1266537768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just tried a language construct that creates a module from all the bindings currently in scope. I wasn't really expecting it to include all the bindings from all the imported modules. And all builtins. But it does. I maybe need to rethink how to define modules. < 1266538396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266538708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, set difference to the rescue. < 1266538815 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266539118 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-162-148-227.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266539156 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266539268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, closures everywhere. < 1266539277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, just like the economy! < 1266539281 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later. < 1266539284 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266539291 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266540131 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266540219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have recently been hit with what seems to be synchronicity with regards to thinkpad 701C. The last few days it has popped up in 4 different unrelated contexts... < 1266541192 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266541402 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1266541723 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266541891 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266541983 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266547178 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266547616 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266547833 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266550306 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266551866 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266552113 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266553060 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266556351 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266556654 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266556757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklopol, oerjan wasn't connected when you said that < 1266556767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, i have esoteric log powers < 1266556822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "oklogon" must be some sort of an irr{egular,esponsive,ational,everent} shape, by way of analogy from polygon. <-- possibly discworld related? < 1266556830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well _i_ was thinking lovecraft < 1266556844 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with my version) < 1266557072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266557254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. <-- I first thought "what are you messing around with by doing induction over an uncountable set" < 1266557268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as mentioned, perfectly possible in theory. < 1266557371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, you need to well-order the set first, and for most frequently used uncountable sets (reals, complexes) that requires using the axiom of choice. so you don't get any concrete sense of what the order is. < 1266559411 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266559560 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266559613 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266559942 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey oklopol < 1266560201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AnMaster: oklopol, oerjan wasn't connected when you said that" <<< that's why i said it on-chan, not in pm < 1266560328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, how did you know i just came here < 1266560939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows it goin oklopol < 1266561184 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266561501 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266561824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266562164 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266563288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266563927 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-71.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266564002 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266564748 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266565679 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266566399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266566400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266566409 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266566708 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266567980 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol < 1266567999 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a parasitic gap which has the reverse direction: Which candidate do even supporters of __ tend to dislike __? < 1266568027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the parasitic gap is _inside the subject_ < 1266568099 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice topic btw, it's always up-to-date when you look at it < 1266568127 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: which what < 1266568138 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not you, the topic < 1266568149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.o; < 1266568162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont get it < 1266568162 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1266568164 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the /topic, that is < 1266568165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however! < 1266568171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yeah hehe < 1266568184 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indexed_grammar < 1266568189 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't know what a parasitic gap is < 1266568192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_grammar < 1266568197 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_index_grammar < 1266568213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_movement_grammar < 1266568218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_concatenation_grammars < 1266568220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://example.org/I_can_also_spam_with_links < 1266568228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266568248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_gap < 1266568266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, is this programming or linguistics < 1266568274 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which? < 1266568282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parasitic gap or whatever < 1266568291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all all those links you pasted < 1266568302 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PGs are strictly linguistic phenomena (unless someone invents a PL with them!) < 1266568314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I won't even bother looking < 1266568347 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the *_grammar links are just pages for grammar formalisms that lie roughly in the range of the mildly context-sensitive grammars < 1266568762 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Which candidate do even supporters of __ tend to dislike __?" what's supposed to be able to go after 'dislike' here? < 1266568787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing. the __'s just denote the positions in which "the candidate" is understood. < 1266568797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "even supports of Bob Dole tend to dislike Bob Dole" < 1266568886 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I thought it was all about how you could plug in objects there that are *not* bound by the 'wh' < 1266568945 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266568953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its all about the dependencies < 1266568967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the __'s denote the dependencies associated with the WH phrase < 1266569022 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what depends on what though? aren't all just gaps bound by 'wh'? < 1266569143 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not necessarily < 1266569183 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider the topicalized "MARY I like ___, but John I hate ___" < 1266569387 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you fill in the gaps in your question you get: Which candidate do even supporters of Bob Dole tend to dislike Bob Dole? < 1266569400 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's worthwhile to learn english grammar before you go after other grammars < 1266569427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: no, you dont fill in the gaps < 1266569428 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's the same thing as wh-fronting, yes... but there's only a single gap for each fronting, just that there are two phrases with independent bindings? < 1266569434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gaps are just there to denote the dependencies < 1266569435 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i just did < 1266569440 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre not things that you fill in < 1266569440 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your sentence sucked balls < 1266569443 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1266569462 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you gave us an example yourself: you put bob dole in both places < 1266569480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i gave you a different sentence without gaps and without the WH element < 1266569500 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does __ mean < 1266569530 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: true, in the topicalized sentence i gave theres only a single gap for each element, but you can get parasitic gaps with topicalization as well < 1266569555 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "THIS book Mary read ___ before shelving ___, not that one" < 1266569608 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what makes either gap parasitic? < 1266569608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i think it's worthwhile to learn english grammar before you go after other grammars <-- my reaction too < 1266569624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2: the ___'s are the conventional notation for gaps, which is the conventional way of talking about long-distance dependencies of this sort. the idiom is basically a comparison with the non-gapped sentence. < 1266569624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, it looks like "fill in word(s) here" < 1266569641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: the second gap is parasitic because without the first gap, the sentence is bad < 1266569649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to anyone that isn't a linguist < 1266569666 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in many ways it IS, but not in the naive sense < 1266569670 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you are using circular definitions < 1266569681 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you made no sense :< < 1266569698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stems from the history of how this sort of phenomenon was treated in chomsky's early work < 1266569698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, "naive" is wrong word here I think. Replace it with "normal" or "everyday" < 1266569731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereby a sentence like "John saw Mary" is transformed by a rewrite operation into "who did John see" < 1266569751 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so in fact __'s are parentheses < 1266569752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you lost information in that transformation < 1266569755 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big deal < 1266569770 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the question now < 1266569772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2, ah right if you see it that way it makes sense < 1266569777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: true. in reality it was "John saw someone" underlyingly < 1266569785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shouldve said that instead. < 1266569787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, ? < 1266569796 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"John saw someone" -> "Who did John see" < 1266569796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you should have said *who* as well < 1266569804 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was the actual transformation < 1266569822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking a declarative with an indefinite "someone", and turning it into the corresponding interrogative with "who" < 1266569854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, early theory I think considered "who" to be derived from rewriting the string "WH someone" < 1266569865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever. < 1266569887 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, right, "this book mary read War and Peace before shelving ___" is weird < 1266569969 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you make it "this book mary shelved ___ after reading ___" I think either gap can be replaced < 1266569998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the first cant be "filled" < 1266570003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its essentially what you just said was weird < 1266570015 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this book mary shelved War and Peace after reading ___" is horrible < 1266570030 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, the second gap can be filled with something else and its fine < 1266570331 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266570691 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kneeways < 1266570997 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266573587 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266573936 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266574079 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266578883 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266579654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266579665 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266580258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no straight man or gay top can understand the concept of not filling a gap with something. < 1266580275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you have such a hard time getting the thing through < 1266580341 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266580869 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266582171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind, the gap. < 1266583117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait where was that < 1266583375 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-148-227.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266583658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In many places, I presume; but it's what London's subway announcement speakers repeat while stopping at a station, IIRC. And it's been the title of at least one magazine article I've seen. < 1266583704 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on where http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_the_gap leads by default, the Underground connection is the "official" one. < 1266584031 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure but wasn't it the name of a level in some flash game < 1266584156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that sounds also likely. < 1266584387 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia says it's "used" in the Flash-built game "VVVVVV". < 1266584533 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266584781 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132B82.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266584812 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh. < 1266584866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fairly sure it's a game we've both played, #eso inducedly. < 1266585026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case I would have guessed that silly dot-action one, but grepping my logs didn't say anything about a mind-gappy level. < 1266585149 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind the gap was a level in that star-fetching programmy game < 1266585169 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that one. < 1266585172 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1266585179 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the level name wasn't just mentioned here. < 1266585194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Robozzle, that's the name. < 1266585223 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number 513 < 1266585504 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266585518 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was pretty sure it was robozzle < 1266586367 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:59 < fizzie> Wikipedia says it's "used" in the Flash-built game "VVVVVV". < 1266586377 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last time I checked it wasn't built in flash < 1266586394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was also from Wikipedia. < 1266586395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last time I checked it was < 1266586406 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it runs on it < 1266586915 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it was straight as3 with something like flex < 1266587493 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I use Flex with FlashDevelop on windows" -- I guess so; Flash-based in the runtime sense, anyway. < 1266587508 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266587802 0 :alise!~alise@91.104.249.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266587847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is Dispatch 3. < 1266587902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hi there < 1266587926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'd type but the keys are sticky; best fix that first. < 1266587937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266587962 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266588106 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1266588357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1266588598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A little hard-handedness, it seems, goes a way; I wouldn't say a "long way" as my troubles are still numerous, but that is the idiom. I am no longer drinking that malnutrition-treatment. It came to a head a few days ago; after having a substantial lunch, I was still forced to drink it all, despite clear, immediate, recent-in-time evidence I was not malnourished whatsoever, and continued explanation that I was completely full and couldn't drink it. Eventuall < 1266588598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y, I settled for "I'll finish it later"; my parental overlords came, "for a visit", and brought me home for the night. The next day, we requested to meet with the head honcho there, and were told he was free; he was not, and we had to say the same things to a patronising-as-fuck nurse. Later that day we got our meeting and it was resolved; they had talked to their bullshitician^Wdietician and the drinks were gone; I just had to eat something else at the tim < 1266588599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e I normally would, and have a bigger lunch every day. Big deal, I ate that much before I went there anyway. < 1266588610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I do wish that XChat was better at wrapping lines. < 1266588663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that, no change; business continues as usual, except it was even more pointless as it's half-term, so no lessons, just sitting around on one games console or another all day. That's therapy, that. < 1266588675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, guys. < 1266588686 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266588741 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to get out < 1266588747 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not right < 1266588752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. I'm on it. < 1266588778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather endure longer than I would have to with an alternative escape plan if it reduces risk, however. < 1266588797 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that is wise < 1266588833 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266588867 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266589083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But unless anyone has anything specific to ask or whatever, on to happier things. :) < 1266589108 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise this is so awful I hate this < 1266589109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey's ring language sounds awesome! (Logreading while mother visits by using Opera Mini on her cheap-ass phone? Why ever not.) < 1266589120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah but it's worse if you think about it :P < 1266589434 0 :Speedy2!~mike@bzq-79-180-18-85.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266589479 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, there are very few dieticans that have any clue about how stuff works in real world. But their speciality is directing people about what to eat and thus ethical responsibility would be to actually know something about nutrion and not just brain-dead-repeat "truth" taught by big pharma courses. < 1266589539 0 :Speedy2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266589579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah - but at least the advice has improved from "DRIIIINK THIIIIS" to "eat a bigger lunch, and have some milk and biscuits at break time instead of the drinks" - to understand this, one must first understand that they appear to have this bizarre notion that, as a rule, I don't eat: I'm often praised after eating something merely because it was eating. I'm utterly baffled by this and think I know who to blame for it, but I won't say anything because it won' < 1266589579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t achieve a thing. < 1266589586 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266589591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, hi scarf. < 1266589594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll cheer me up. < 1266589599 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have heard likes of this: The patient might be deficient in nutrient A. Dietican advises to eat food B. Except that food B _interferes_ with absorption of nutrient A. < 1266589600 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266589612 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to leave to teach Java in about half an hour, but I'll be back an hour after that < 1266589655 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, my email server has taken to marking many legitimate messages with "SPAM:" or "?spam?" in the subject line < 1266589671 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas actual spam is generally marked "[SPAM?] ?spam?" < 1266589682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spam, spam, spam, spam! < 1266589695 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also: The patient might be deficient in nutrient C. Dietican advises to eat food B. Except that food B does not contain nutrient C. < 1266589799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey's ring language sounds awesome! (Logreading while mother visits by using Opera Mini on her cheap-ass phone? Why ever not.) <-- since my phone has opera mini... wouldn't it be truly horrible for that purpose? < 1266589829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, the logs are just text. It folds all the lines into one, but apart from that... < 1266589857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, folding the lines sounds horrible to begin with. < 1266589868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a time and a <, it's a new line. < 1266589870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it beats nothing. < 1266589902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1266589928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well it does, it beats the built in web browser (opera mini is a java application) by far < 1266589932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least on my phone < 1266589938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the built in one is much much worse < 1266589953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Opera Mini, ENHANCED BY VODAFONE! < 1266589955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how it is for pure text, it would probably just download it < 1266589958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1266589959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It totally is. < 1266589963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says on the logo screen. < 1266589967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266589971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't seen any of this "enhancement" yet, mind. < 1266589978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, which version? < 1266589979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I tried downloading a java IRC client but it just saved it as a file and won't open. < 1266589980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5? < 1266589983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't know. < 1266589995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stable release 4.2.14912 (August 3, 2009; 6 month(s) ago (2009-08-03)) [+/−] < 1266589995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Preview release 5.0.17443 (December 23, 2009; 54 day(s) ago (2009-12-23)) [+/−] < 1266589998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably *not* 5. < 1266590003 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the enhancement was clearly just branding < 1266590009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266590041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 is somewhat better than 4 I have to day < 1266590043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say* < 1266590072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, in 5 you can have multiple tabs < 1266590096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the user interface is easier to navigate < 1266590336 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266590464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MobileSafari ftw. :P < 1266590473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even what the fancy Nokia phones have; that's basically the same. < 1266590480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even Android's. < 1266590514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, simple nokia phones has that horrible built in thing + opera mini < 1266590523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean S60 ones. < 1266590530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw it is snowing heavily here < 1266590553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I have no idea what mine has (Nokia 3120 classic) < 1266590562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it isn't symbian < 1266590565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is all < 1266590590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S40, likely. < 1266590597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266590639 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was snowing here yesterday < 1266590652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm checking in the settings the version info thingy: "V 07.16\n27-05-08\nRM-354\n(c) Nokia" < 1266590668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes that actually says "(c)" not "©" < 1266590698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, RM-364, not 354 < 1266590713 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably for encoding reasons < 1266590744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Where'd you come up with "the version info thingy"? < 1266590748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it does have unicode in sms and such < 1266590763 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SMS tends to use 8-bit encodings, rather than Unicode < 1266590774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that's a setting iirc < 1266590777 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that's changed from 5 years ago or so when I last looked at it < 1266590781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which defaults to unicode < 1266590811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, Meny → Inställningar → Telefon → Tel.uppdateringar → Aktuell programinfo. < 1266590859 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh, doesn't apply. < 1266590861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue what it would be on a non-Swedish phone (could guess for an UK phone) < 1266590876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is under the telephony update thingy basically < 1266590904 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I don't have an update thingy like that. < 1266590911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266590925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has never been any updates when I checked < 1266590926 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the "App. manager" but it doesn't include builtin software. < 1266590937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have no such thing as an app manager < 1266590946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I could guess as much. < 1266590955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there are java apps in a folder < 1266590978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I think nokia included some app to download/buy new apps from them/third parties < 1266591001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I looked it basically said for almost all "not compatible with this phone" < 1266591011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonder why they were listed at all < 1266591024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they could try to only show relevant ones < 1266591061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$$ < 1266591066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"buy a new phone get this app" < 1266591105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it didn't even say that < 1266591108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what phone it needed < 1266591128 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the advertising in PC World around the release of Windows 7 was even more hilarious < 1266591134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: something expensive < 1266591135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was along the lines of "Windows 7 is out, time for a new PC" < 1266591147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, err what? < 1266591161 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it seemed to be working, at least < 1266591172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I don't get it. < 1266591174 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so many people think that a computer is inherently tied to the OS version it comes with < 1266591186 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's those that they were targeting < 1266591191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, people who reads computer magazines? < 1266591196 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266591203 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who have seen adverts talking about how great windows 7 is < 1266591215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, "PC World" isn't a computer magzine over ther? < 1266591217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there* < 1266591232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is, but it's mostly a chain of computer retail stores < 1266591233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is here, IDG iirc < 1266591247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, aha, that explains it somewhat < 1266591281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, who owns the trademark then, the chain or the magazine? Or are they related? < 1266591291 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea < 1266591295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266591300 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I've been wondering that myself < 1266591337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I estimate an average snow depth of 30 cm in the area I cleared this morning btw. And it was about 20 cm then. < 1266591338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1266591351 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to go teach Java, anyway < 1266591353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably will go out and clear away somewhat before it becomes too heavy < 1266591364 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The forecast here is 50 cm over the weekend < 1266591368 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266591374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, something similar here iirc < 1266591396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I need to go to another city tomorrow. Not possible to cancel due to weather < 1266591408 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, have fun with that < 1266591475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, test at university (yes, during the weekend, it sucks, but apparently they are short of rooms during the single week when basically every student at the university has a test) < 1266591480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be better if they spread them out < 1266591492 0 :alise_!~alise@91.105.105.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266591504 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1266591508 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we have occasional exams on saturdays as well < 1266591519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, saturday *afternoon* even < 1266591520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1266591592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either someone hates me or I have really bad luck. Because for every course group (two at the same time) there has been one test on a Saturday for me < 1266591594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i made some comments to you earlier < 1266591606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, where/when? and what were those comments? < 1266591625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't read logs? < 1266591634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266591636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to like you should say "or", not "and" < 1266591646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I do read scrollback, and since I saw my last line in there I suppose it must not be in logs either < 1266591659 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either you can find out how to get to the comments or you can be given them directly, no point in both < 1266591670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but no I don't read logs unless someone highlighted my nick < 1266591684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your nick was present when i comented < 1266591686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mm < 1266591694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i quoted you < 1266591703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Seems to like you should say "or", not "and" <--- < 1266591705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266591715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, maybe you don't get pinged on quoting... < 1266591727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well I do get pinged by that < 1266591737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, maybe you had timed out and not noticed it? < 1266591740 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also re ring programming, cool cool < 1266591749 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Read the follow-up as well... < 1266591751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: um i see it perfectly well in the logs < 1266591752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway I'm going outside to clear away some snow in exactly 1 minute < 1266591753 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs to be a monoid too < 1266591763 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :50 < 1266591764 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo a ring computer is obviously parallel < 1266591768 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266591771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, thus, say what you wanted now < 1266591773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :40 < 1266591773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:19:17 oklopol, oerjan wasn't connected when you said that < 1266591777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:19:27 however, i have esoteric log powers < 1266591777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, har < 1266591779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:20:22 "oklogon" must be some sort of an irr{egular,esponsive,ational,everent} shape, by way of analogy from polygon. <-- possibly discworld related? < 1266591783 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30 < 1266591784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:20:30 well _i_ was thinking lovecraft < 1266591786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:20:44 (with my version) < 1266591789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:24:32 --- quit: augur (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) < 1266591791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:27:34 "Execution of instructions in one program induces execution of instructions in another, nearby program." Yes. <-- I first thought "what are you messing around with by doing induction over an uncountable set" < 1266591793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 < 1266591796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:27:48 as mentioned, perfectly possible in theory. < 1266591796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah that < 1266591798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:29:31 however, you need to well-order the set first, and for most frequently used uncountable sets (reals, complexes) that requires using the axiom of choice. so you don't get any concrete sense of what the order is. < 1266591798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + b = compute a and b in parallel, obviously < 1266591800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't see any reason to comment < 1266591802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a * b = sequencing < 1266591803 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 < 1266591805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1266591810 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mzero = _|_ < 1266591813 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See ya < 1266591859 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm so < 1266591873 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a `seq` (b `par` c) = (a `seq` b) `par` (a `seq` c) < 1266591880 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266591898 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a `par` b) `seq` c = (a `seq` c) `par` (b `seq` c) < 1266591906 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266591928 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, since all are just c ;-P < 1266591945 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if a or b = _|_ < 1266591962 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1266592041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: my hunch now is that this ring programming is just the endomorphism ring generated by extending computations to apply to the free abelian group over possible input < 1266592052 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely < 1266592053 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266592059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"just" < 1266592080 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my n and l keys aren't pressing nicely :( < 1266592084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266592088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the provision that non-halting computations become -> 0 < 1266592099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not mzero, mempty, ofc < 1266592101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it's a simple algebraic construction, really < 1266592133 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Cr = Bot | Cr :+ Cr | Cr :* Cr < 1266592138 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Methinks I need more than just that < 1266592138 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266592140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is that i'm not sure you can get something more useful than chaining all inputs in parallel < 1266592143 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's nop, then, if bot is 0? < 1266592146 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe nop = 0, bot = inf < 1266592156 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266592194 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: otoh a `par` b = b even if a = _|_ < 1266592204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true < 1266592206 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, of course, you need the resulting computation to have some sort of _result_ < 1266592208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your equations still hold < 1266592215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we need a new Cr, i.e. Id foo < 1266592240 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a :+ b -> Id (a' :+ b'), maybe (where ' denotes evaluation) < 1266592245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta love two-letter identifiers < 1266592259 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266592285 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I don't think I can use par < 1266592290 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need *deterministic* parallelism XD < 1266592310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: my idea is that the result of a sum is just the sum of the results. < 1266592311 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cr Id :+ :* <-- the embedded meaning, it is blinding < 1266592322 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, yeah. < 1266592327 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This /is/ mathematics. < 1266592331 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: see, that's what I said! < 1266592338 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266592346 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have an excuse to be obtuse? ;-P < 1266592360 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, I also need shorthand for my convenience, since I'll be using the names a lot. < 1266592365 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::+ and :* have embedded meaning, from rings. < 1266592371 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Id is identity, just like id. < 1266592377 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cr is Computation Ring; it's arbitrary. < 1266592397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: also this would work nicely with free vector spaces too, then you can multiply your computation with reals/complexes < 1266592398 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ComputationRing < 1266592403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's just me < 1266592431 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ComputationRing = Bottom | ComputationRing :+ ComputationRing | ComputationRing :* ComputationRing < 1266592431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get an algebra over a field (or another ring, if you want) < 1266592433 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just noise. < 1266592445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only need to type it once. < 1266592450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care. < 1266592452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still noise. < 1266592479 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you insist. < 1266592479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so a*b -> a'*b'? < 1266592481 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a'+b'? < 1266592511 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266592512 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's 1? < 1266592520 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*x = x implies nop, but 1+x should be > x < 1266592523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identity < 1266592529 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 1+x = x? < 1266592535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, 1 = id < 1266592546 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1266592552 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: What does > mean here? < 1266592561 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, okay: !=. < 1266592567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the obvious way to get a ring unit in an endomorphism ring... < 1266592580 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what is 1+x with respect to x? < 1266592592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um is x a computation then? < 1266592594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what does = mean here? Computation has same result? < 1266592595 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266592598 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1' = 1, so it's (1+x') < 1266592604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess is not x :P < 1266592609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yeah < 1266592614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then 1+x is a parallel computation that returns both input and x(input) < 1266592618 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval Bot = fix id < 1266592625 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266592629 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh i see, it's basically currying < 1266592630 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what < 1266592636 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: fix id :-P < 1266592642 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And? :P < 1266592652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eval Bot = eval Bot < 1266592657 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychoanalysis = fix id < 1266592666 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyuk hyuk :| < 1266592669 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266592669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :joke = old < 1266592670 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psychotherapy, really < 1266592683 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so x*y = x' + y' or x' * y'? < 1266592685 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess + < 1266592691 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(' is evaluation) < 1266592717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really, eval :: Cr -> Cr -> Cr < 1266592719 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one is input) < 1266592721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i don't understand your notation < 1266592735 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x' is the result of computing x < 1266592739 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said that < 1266592742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a + b -> a' + b' < 1266592749 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a * b -> a' * b' or a' + b'? < 1266592753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um you also need to specify input < 1266592762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's the same for both < 1266592765 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can be left implicit, no? < 1266592766 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x*y)(inp) = y(x(inp)) < 1266592770 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1266592781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if x and y are deterministic computations < 1266592788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, sum all branches < 1266592788 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... you don't actually need parallelism at all :) < 1266592812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and bottom = 0 as input/output < 1266592827 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you'll never be able to inspect the output... < 1266592837 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for obvious reasons < 1266592846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't think this is _computable_ < 1266592858 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm computing it simply by leaving 0 resulting in _|_ < 1266592862 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't seem unreasonable to me... < 1266592879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to have a ring you need 0 + x = x < 1266592943 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1266592951 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, can you even write a non-terminating program without 0? < 1266592956 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not without an infinite program. < 1266592967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is really just \_ -> 0 < 1266592996 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sense yes < 1266593019 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I think this language is computable, and sub-TC. < 1266593044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you only use terminating programs as base < 1266593053 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I have only Bot and Id as base programs. :) < 1266593058 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Cr = Bot | Id | Cr :+ Cr | Cr :* Cr deriving (Show) < 1266593084 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266593095 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I need more to have anything useful. < 1266593099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, wait, no. < 1266593102 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can use Bot as (). < 1266593106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then you essentially get a free ring on 0 generators, aka Z < 1266593109 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So then () = 0, (() :+ ()) = 1, ... < 1266593109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the integers) < 1266593126 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hrm, so completely unable to be used for any useful computation then < 1266593130 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess that's pretty obvious < 1266593133 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266593172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what useful computations he could have < 1266593183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we need *some* sort of looper < 1266593209 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/832823.txt?key=a8bszac2sr9tpdd2n2pfw < 1266593212 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ours for the extending, anyway. < 1266593231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as i implied, you could throw any terminating functions into your base without trouble < 1266593240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still be sub-TC < 1266593269 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266593303 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye, but we want to be able to calculate fibonacci at least < 1266593306 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ackermann preferably < 1266593320 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a conditional, then. < 1266593325 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, we have that < 1266593329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well primitive recursion is enough for the former < 1266593345 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 x = 0, 1 x = x, 2 x = x :+ x, I think < 1266593356 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266593362 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 x = 0, 1 x = 0 :+ 0 < 1266593368 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least I think so < 1266593374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is rather confusing < 1266593381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transfinite induction was mentioned earlier today, maybe you could use that, omega^2 gives you ackermann iirc < 1266593388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> eval (Id :+ Id) (Id :+ Id) < 1266593388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Id :+ Id) :+ (Id :+ Id) < 1266593448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 = id i said! < 1266593485 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266593488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you seem to have left out subtraction in your ring < 1266593500 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's (1+1) -apply- (1+1) < 1266593506 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. (id id),(id id) < 1266593509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e... oh dear < 1266593514 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1266593519 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Cr = Bot | Id | Cr :+ Cr | Cr :* Cr ?? < 1266593525 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In mathematics, a ring is an algebraic structure consisting of a set together with two binary operations (usually called addition and multiplication), where each operation combines two elements to form a third element. < 1266593526 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: computation as a ring < 1266593533 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just bot = bot ; id = 0 ? < 1266593574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that does not make any sense, I believe < 1266593575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: if you want it defined as an algebraic variety, you need something like subtraction or negation explicit. otherwise you need a logic axiom for their existence... < 1266593589 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah but I'm bored now :) < 1266593596 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally should a closure copy the objects it's closing over, or just separate the identifiers from the global scope? < 1266593609 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :effectively making a local copy of the identifiers < 1266593628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: if you have mutable variables you need to be careful < 1266593634 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bot + bot < 1266593636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copying doesn't work then < 1266593646 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are mutable variables? < 1266593647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: copying is less efficient < 1266593653 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... what < 1266593655 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: you misunderstood. < 1266593667 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: that's nice, you could have just restated it more clearly < 1266593672 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: variables whose values can be _changed_ < 1266593690 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable variables, basically. < 1266593707 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: define 'value of variable' < 1266593711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: and that means changes need to be visible to all scopes < 1266593716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: >_< < 1266593724 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: cheater is just being obtuse < 1266593727 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266593727 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest ignoring him < 1266593737 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am trying to understand something that requires precise statements < 1266593744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're being precise. < 1266593748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: for once i agree with alise_ on annoyingness < 1266593750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Var = Integer < 1266593756 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :value :: [Value] -> Var -> Maybe Value < 1266593759 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy? < 1266593766 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noo < 1266593766 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mutate :: Var -> Value -> [Value] < 1266593766 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Var = Var Integer < 1266593769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not a valid syntaxxx < 1266593772 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266593773 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yeah w/e :P < 1266593777 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you don't even !!!!!!!!!!!!! HASKELL < 1266593782 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it was valid < 1266593791 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even !!!!!!!!!!!!! Haskell. < 1266593802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even < 1266593808 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're just teaming up with her in hopes of being laid < 1266593814 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: admit =( < 1266593819 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's totally true. < 1266593823 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan craves me. < 1266593827 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: the thing is, iirc ML which has no mutable variables can get away with implementing closures with copying. and also iirc java does the same with a horrible hack of _disallowing_ closures over non-final variables < 1266593837 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-5-238.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266593842 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML has mutable refs doesn't it < 1266593860 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc they're separate entities < 1266593868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: yes, but that doesn't matter since it's not actually the variables themselves... < 1266593896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact you could deal with mutable variables by copying references to them < 1266593902 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if i have a closure in python, over x, it has a local version of x. so if i later assign, outside of the closure, in the global scope, something else to x, then the x in the closure still refers to the old object. whereas if i modify the object in the global scope outside the closure, by say changing one of its fields, then the change is reflected inside the closure. < 1266593922 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A person demands absolute preciseness of semantics, and then starts talking about Python's semantics? < 1266593925 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! < 1266593933 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: that just says that what python calls closure is not what one would usually call a closure < 1266593949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266593960 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data MutableVar = PointerToImmutable MutableReference < 1266593968 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada now you can do closures via copying < 1266594024 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and what is the difference? < 1266594109 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266594111 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Python's closures? That x didn't change. < 1266594124 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: a real closure would see the "same" variable as everything else in the scope of the variable < 1266594147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same in quotes because you can cheat if it really doesn't matter (e.g. immutable variable) < 1266594166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pheew < 1266594182 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not cheating if you can't tell the difference within the language < 1266594195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about 50 cm already btw < 1266594198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you this may be just a consequence of python's scopes being not truly lexical, also iirc < 1266594202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30 was an underestimate < 1266594202 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/doc/website_burro.html < 1266594204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking hell < 1266594210 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is dragging up the past! < 1266594215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no free space for the cleared away snow any more < 1266594219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what am I to do? < 1266594220 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Almost 20 inches?! < 1266594224 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swim < 1266594225 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest castration. < 1266594233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, har < 1266594261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, snow swining, hm. Sounds like something to add to the olympic games < 1266594313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no nearby hill to shove it off? < 1266594330 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snow swining! < 1266594335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pigs; racing through snow. < 1266594394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to nicely complement the summer sport of sow swimming < 1266594492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls the pole vault from the frc hellympics < 1266594733 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266594756 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoyoyoyoyoyo < 1266594758 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing < 1266594765 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1266594776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so I've become obsessed with one paradigm < 1266594781 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1266594793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There can be only one < 1266594797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tree rewriting! It's like functional programming, but (a) usually slow, and (b) restrictionless! < 1266594798 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION secretly hopes it's one he hasn't heard of < 1266594806 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ooh, I like that one too < 1266594812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a symbolic computation system - we got yer algebra system. < 1266594817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a functional language - we got yer Y. < 1266594821 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Cyclexa is not really at a usable stage < 1266594828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more than cyclexa < 1266594832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1266594839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: no nearby hill to shove it off? <-- no < 1266594843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree = symbol | app tree tree < 1266594848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or I would need to go up said hill < 1266594850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program is a set of tree' -> tree < 1266594852 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functional programming is a myth < 1266594854 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it's effectively tree-rewriting, except it's string-rewriting with parsers determined at runtime so you can randomly reparse the string as some other tree if you like) < 1266594857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then all the neighbours would get mad < 1266594858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tree' = tree except another leaf is "freevar symbol" < 1266594865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bound on the RHS and replaced < 1266594867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, this is inside a town after all < 1266594868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can have e.g. < 1266594875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not (not X) = X < 1266594876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1266594880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where caps = free < 1266594887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised there is yet another issue with time travel < 1266594890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a paradox < 1266594893 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ah < 1266594896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a very very annoying issue < 1266594898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ^ < 1266594902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we can evaluate (not (not (not x))) without defining x < 1266594905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get not x < 1266594906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266594906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are lots of issues with time travel < 1266594916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, "best before" dates on products would become useless < 1266594916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: also, since terms without a rule just stay inert... < 1266594918 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so time travel is impossible < 1266594922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: we can use function application as data < 1266594926 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: makes sense; the tree-rewriting version of SKI combinatory logic works like that, doesn't it < 1266594928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. (Cons x y), without defining Cons < 1266594930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it Just Works < 1266594933 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep < 1266594935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah. i guess it only works if you live some way up a hill to start with. < 1266594937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yep, you can define SKI like that literally < 1266594938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, same for credit cards that has "valid to" < 1266594947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or whatever the English phrase for that is) < 1266594947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: also, "X + Y" doesn't have to be specially supported < 1266594949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X plus Y = foo < 1266594952 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: note that this is what Mathematica does for everything, except the bits that were hand-optimised in C < 1266594958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the head term just happens to be a free var < 1266594960 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266594960 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm prepared to believe, though, that it's a good idea but an awful implementation of it < 1266594964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yep < 1266594990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q, http://q-lang.sourceforge.net/, and its successor Pure, http://code.google.com/p/pure-lang/, are the best term-rewriting languages < 1266594996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure is even not hideously slow. < 1266594998 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1266594998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm looking at my various cards phrases such as "good thru" and "valid thru" pops up < 1266595030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah, plus that is hardly a hill. I guess the elevation is about 5-7 meters compared to the area around at most < 1266595041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: a really cool thing is that since rules are independent, not "attached" to anything, you can "extend" "functions" < 1266595045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1266595046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, not sure what the English word is. But it is called an "ås" around here < 1266595055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doc factorial = "The factorial function." < 1266595057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial n = ... < 1266595060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then later < 1266595063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doc fib = "Fibonacci" < 1266595064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ås being not a hill due to being rather narrow but quite long < 1266595065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fib n = ... < 1266595070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(doc X) is just a term < 1266595074 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266595078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as fib or factorial < 1266595088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that sort of thing leads to truly weird bugs in Mathematica < 1266595090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, currying works: < 1266595093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo x y = ... < 1266595096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(foo x) just doesn't evaluate < 1266595097 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you get literal bits of its internal working dumped into your result < 1266595102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do ((foo x) y), however... < 1266595102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the English word for that scarf? < 1266595113 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure; there may not be a particular one < 1266595117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266595121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we don't really have them so we don't need to call them anything :P < 1266595132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Pure is even compiled - to LLVM, no less < 1266595140 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: we do, we just don't notice them < 1266595151 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: have you tried using it much yet? < 1266595155 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Pure's shell is a good start < 1266595156 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> help < 1266595156 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sh: w3m: command not found < 1266595165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, alise: oh interwiki gives "ridge" < 1266595165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yeah that's relevant to the language. < 1266595168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't quite it < 1266595171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1266595175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, I've read a lot of the docs and wrote some simple programs < 1266595185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ridge sounds like something you would find at high mountains < 1266595191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ås is definitely not so < 1266595192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm quite enamored with the paradigm; and the language isn't bad. < 1266595194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i though ås (a norwegian word too) was also translated as hill < 1266595205 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a ridge is basically what you get when a lot of hills or mountains nearby connect together < 1266595208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's eager, yes, and impure, yes, but despite that it's still pleasant. < 1266595208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm maybe < 1266595210 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to create one long hilltop, that's a ridge < 1266595214 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not what you were describing < 1266595225 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, how can an impure language be called Pure? irony? accident? < 1266595226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad interwiki I guess then < 1266595236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, or partly overlapping meanings < 1266595247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly ås geologically is something else than everyday sense < 1266595247 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do you get ridges where you live? < 1266595270 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Birmingham is in a really hilly area, so I know of a few within an hour's driving distance < 1266595274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in Sweden yes, around this part of sweden: no, you need to travel 1-2 hours by car to the nearest such place < 1266595309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you have this large almost completely flat area and then some mountains at the west side of it < 1266595325 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, sounds like a mirror-reflected version of Norfolk < 1266595335 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is rather hilly around the edges, but famously ridiculously flat in the central areas < 1266595340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well mountains, a few hundred meters, you do notice it as pressure difference in your ears when you go over them though < 1266595361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NORFOLK: Secretly, part of the Netherlands. < 1266595365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, I live near the flat middle basically < 1266595378 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266595387 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: at least it mostly isn't underwatetr < 1266595389 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*underwater < 1266595393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266595399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, below sea level < 1266595402 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't /quite/ the same thing < 1266595422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, iirc some time after the last ice age this area was part of the sea. < 1266595436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the ground has risen since) < 1266595451 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Norfolk got the way it was due to being covered in glaciers during the last ice age < 1266595461 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hills round the edges are where the glaciers melted and dumped all the stones they were carrying < 1266595468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and yes, there were glaciers here too < 1266595549 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how well concatenative langs compile into tree-rewriting langs < 1266595552 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably quite well < 1266595571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, the mountains to the west contain some interesting remains such as fields with lots of round huge stones. And there is of course the occasional slab of stone in the middle of the plain. (which were put there by trolls or giants or something if you prefer the traditional stories ;P) < 1266595657 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To my mind Mythryl deftly combines C speed, Lisp power, and Ruby convenience with the critical new ingredients of Hindley-Milner typing, state of the art generics and just the right level of side effects." < 1266595663 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the dangers of semi-randomly clicking on links on Wikipedia < 1266595676 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, it's an attempt to convert SML/NJ into a C-like syntax < 1266595694 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C + Lisp + Ruby + Hindley-Milner + generics + side effects < 1266595697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O____o < 1266595704 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it scares me too < 1266595718 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy reading the docs to know whether to laugh at it or not < 1266595721 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one hell of a tagline < 1266595738 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"new ingredients of Hindley-Milner typing" just sounds /confused/ < 1266595757 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Either way, this is a far cry from the hundred-plus lines of code of a typical C Quicksort implementation." < 1266595762 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that seems rather critical of C < 1266595769 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"new ingredients of x" obviously does, but "new ingredients of x, y, and z" is fine < 1266595773 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen a Pascal quicksort in 20 lines, and that was in a book intended to teach Haskell < 1266595778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of Mythryl, I think. < 1266595779 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, to teach Pascal < 1266595786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; that thingl. < 1266595788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thing. < 1266595788 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: So how's theirs; link < 1266595802 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mythryl.org/ < 1266595806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pascal, haskell, nearly the same. if you slur enough. < 1266595823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's a pain trying to discuss Haskell with people who know Pascal but not Haskell < 1266595825 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mythryl.org/my-Less_coding_effort_.html is what I wanted < 1266595827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"By four years in, vomiting blood in the wee hours was starting to seem entirely normal." < 1266595829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slightly odd man < 1266595830 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to really emphasise the e to prevent them mishearing it < 1266595839 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wizard is AWESOME < 1266595843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, this keyboard doesn't have enough key travel; though the rubber domes _do_ make a nice clacky sound. < 1266595846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it is a completely unoptimized "quicksort" of a linked list < 1266595855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It beats the previous, sticky one though, I think. < 1266595866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: theoretically pascal should stress the last syllable, i think < 1266595886 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As opposed to the 100+ C lines of a suitably benchmarked introsort on arrays < 1266595888 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, but a stressed e and a stressed a sound rather different < 1266595893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like bashing the fucking keys! Am I even pressing these things? < 1266595921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um i'm actually not sure where haskell is stressed < 1266595925 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the Mythryl guy seems to use "linux$ " as his $PS1 < 1266595932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or has his box called "linux". < 1266595937 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266595939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is just using it as an example. < 1266595944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION always stresses it on first syllable < 1266595945 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but who calls a computer after its OS? < 1266595946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or uses uname < 1266595951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Incidentally, you can do pure IO without monads in a term rewriting language, really trivially. < 1266595952 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so do I, although I don't know that's right < 1266595964 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that my uname prints Linux, but whatever < 1266595969 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what method in particular are you thinking of? < 1266595976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts s = lambda k (_PUTS s k) < 1266595987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :getc = lambda k (_GETC k) < 1266595992 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks rather like a monad to me < 1266595994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exit = lambda k _EXIT < 1266595997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes, it is technically < 1266595997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1266596000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we do < 1266596006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some TURT questions. Since I'm planning it for efunge. 1) Since heading (in degrees) and distance to move are both integers we might end up at non-integer x/y. This can of course be handled by floating point or fixed point math. However that poses a problem since there is an instruction to query the current coordinates. Should one return rounded-to-nearest values for it? Or round internally < 1266596006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well? < 1266596017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a C quicksort takes like 8 lines max < 1266596028 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a Joy quicksort takes one < 1266596038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x ; y = lambda k (x (y k)) < 1266596041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can say < 1266596043 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a GolfScript quicksort in something like ten characters? < 1266596043 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a hundred lines you can just manually program how to sort each possible list < 1266596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts "Hello, world!"; getc; exit < 1266596049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it turns into < 1266596055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cpressy said that he couldn't answer it, since he wrote that stuff so long ago he really doesn't remember what was intended or anything < 1266596056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turns into the monad < 1266596056 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Either, I guess < 1266596064 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"REPROGRAM YOUR SEMICOLONS!" < 1266596069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda k (_PUTS "Hello, world!" (_GETC (_EXIT k))) < 1266596091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the RTS passes it some dummy end-of-thing < 1266596092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's a monad; ; is bind here < 1266596093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :value < 1266596095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tada < 1266596096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, yes < 1266596100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you never "define" the monad < 1266596102 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you deal with non-monad terms in there, though? < 1266596105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the magic there is that < 1266596107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you define a CPS language < 1266596110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then the sugar over it < 1266596110 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what's the equivalent of lift? < 1266596112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're defined in the same way < 1266596114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with normal rules < 1266596127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: lift doesn't lift non-monadic values < 1266596130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean return :: a -> m a? < 1266596135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes < 1266596136 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1266596166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, if you're like most term languages, i.e. untyped, < 1266596172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need it < 1266596177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1266596177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It wouldn't surprise me if GolfScript had a single char for quicksort ;-P < 1266596180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, you could do this: < 1266596186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :return x = lambda k (k x) < 1266596191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :original haskell 1.0 did have a CPS I/O system < 1266596196 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it probably has a single char for sort, but nothing would be requiring it to be quicksort < 1266596197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I could see issues with both variants: a) for round to query only: if program uses that, jumps somewhere else, then jumps back to continue to draw the lines might no longer line up properly. b) for round internally: angles would sometimes get distorted. And if it moves two lengths in a given angle but not in a single go you could get lines supposed to be straight that are now somewhat curved. < 1266596205 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep < 1266596218 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It could be requiring it, although that's admittedly unlikely < 1266596231 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just, I can't see any amount of sugar that would mean that ; could combine IO operations with non-IO operations < 1266596241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Of course you could. < 1266596241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not sure which of those is worst. Oh btw does ccbi keep track of the heading in radians or degrees internally? < 1266596241 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I don't see what all the fuss is about quicksort, mergesort is just usually better < 1266596248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of < 1266596249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts s = lambda k (_PUTS s k) < 1266596249 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a raster format, you will get such issues. < 1266596254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts s = _IO (lambda k (_PUTS s k)) < 1266596257 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(strangely, Java specifies the sort of primitive types to be quicksort, and of objects to be mergesort, and I have no idea why) < 1266596257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it isn't. It will render to svg < 1266596265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then just pattern-match on _IO in ; < 1266596272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_IO x ; y = ... < 1266596273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or control a real turtle bot maybe ;) < 1266596275 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe < 1266596280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x ; y = _IO (lambda k (k x)); y < 1266596288 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, that would preclude returning the puts function itself < 1266596293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1266596293 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you had a separate return < 1266596296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because there is no "puts function". < 1266596302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you return "puts", that's a symbol. < 1266596308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only "puts x" is rewritten. < 1266596312 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, a partial application of it < 1266596317 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even a full application, in a lazy lang < 1266596317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a curried function: "K x" is just a term. Not rewritten. < 1266596320 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Radians < 1266596322 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep < 1266596326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"K x y" is reduced, however. < 1266596328 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it starts with _IO and so confuses your pattern matcher < 1266596332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you can have 'x = x without rewriting. < 1266596337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No, it doesn't. < 1266596340 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, quoting < 1266596340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"puts" doesn't start with _IO. < 1266596344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and good point < 1266596345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts is puts. < 1266596355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :puts x doesn't start with _IO, either, but its reduction does. < 1266596369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could get floating point inexactness issues there when you turn in 1 degree steps or such. Like turing +1 degree 360 times might not give you the exact original heading. < 1266596389 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, so it's just going to be down to the usual lazy timing issues which drive strict programmers trying to learn Haskell mad < 1266596393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can live with those < 1266596395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing +1 degree 360! < 1266596404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, Pure isn't even lazy. < 1266596413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, another issue: the "query bounds of drawing" thingy. Is it supposed to be max bounds or current bounds? cfunge seems to do the latter, but I'm not sure if this is correct. After all it is possible a befunge program might want to scale it's drawing based on available space. And if that returns 0,0,0,0 you have some issues. < 1266596414 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There are precision issues anyway since I don't use arbitrary-precision reals < 1266596421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it solves this "problem" extremely easily. < 1266596429 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266596445 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a strict language doesn't need IO chains, or IO monads, or anything like that < 1266596452 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266596457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can be strict and pure, scarf. < 1266596460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true, but tracking heading as integer degrees and only converting for actual sin/cos usage would mean the inexactness of heading couldn't increase over time < 1266596460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a nun! < 1266596478 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, but the point is you don't need to be < 1266596479 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Unless my Mycology results are wrong cfunge's U definitely pushes the max bounds < 1266596484 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy and impure is a lot more difficult < 1266596488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Indeed, purity is a desirable property even in a strict language - _|_ is your only enemy. < 1266596493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morrow. < 1266596496 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: agreed < 1266596496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a tradeoff < 1266596498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Back early? < 1266596515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Early? 'Tis the 4th post-meridian hour of Friday. < 1266596520 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably going to leave Underlambda impure, though, to make it easier to compile into and out of, which is after all its design goal < 1266596520 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION converts to UTC < 1266596536 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I try to make a version that's actually useful for writing in, maybe I'll have to have an Underhaskell or something < 1266596538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, you get back at 4 PM? < 1266596541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Unless my Mycology results are wrong cfunge's U definitely pushes the max bounds <-- "huh" < 1266596544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at the code < 1266596552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, at half past the meridian today actually. < 1266596554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or thereabouts. < 1266596559 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iki.fi/deewiant/befunge/mycology-output/fp-turt/cfunge.txt < 1266596565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh indeed it does < 1266596565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Early leaving on Friday... but when *would* you expect me to be back? < 1266596570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11pm? :P < 1266596571 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: U in which fingerprint? < 1266596575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I read some other fingerprint < 1266596577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, TURT < 1266596580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah. < 1266596583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err function < 1266596585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fingerprint < 1266596606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was the function for figuring out svg viewport or something it seems < 1266596610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm actually curious when you thought < 1266596617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the design will be quite different from that in cfunge < 1266596633 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I thought it was just a bit later in the day is all. < 1266596650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured they'd have you around for pretty much of the work week or something. < 1266596701 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the people imprisoning him probably hate having to guard the place as much as he hates going there < 1266596716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, since the way cfunge does it have some issues and is somewhat messy. I might rewrite it later on < 1266596747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: True, true. < 1266596759 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like they enjoy it, they just have a stick up their ass. < 1266596791 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably different people making the decisions from the people who have to live with their consequences < 1266596811 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also true. < 1266596824 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general, or decisions would be better in general < 1266596853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of them seem to get a real kick out of power, though. < 1266596856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note to self: if you use vnc remember to turn off synergy first. That was quite confusing < 1266596875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(vnc and synergy between same computers that is) < 1266596960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The infamous Stanford prison experiment (which has not been repeated for ethical reasons) gives some evidence to suggest that merely being placed into position as guard of a prison produces that. < 1266596993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Stanford prison experiment is chilling. < 1266597000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed it is. < 1266597010 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's really scary < 1266597016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But add the Milgram experiment, and it's /fucking terrifying/. < 1266597032 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't know that one < 1266597045 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the one with electric shocks < 1266597049 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1266597051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The experimenter (E) orders the teacher (T), the subject of the experiment, to give what the latter believes are painful electric shocks to a learner (L), who is actually an actor and confederate. The subject believes that for each wrong answer, the learner was receiving actual electric shocks, though in reality there were no such punishments < 1266597059 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that one, just not its name < 1266597073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The experimenter tells the teacher to keep doing it even as the intensity of the "shocks" supposedly increases to insane levels. < 1266597079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The teacher almost universally complies. < 1266597092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and after a while the learner plays dead, and the teacher keeps increasing the shocks anyway < 1266597106 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266597111 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently, it's highly dependent on how authoritative the experimenter seems < 1266597124 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Milgram experiment. < 1266597127 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they repeated it with the experimenter wearing casual clothing, and people suddenly started acting sanely < 1266597147 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1266597159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Milgram + Stanford = Speak authoritatively, and you can get people to do horrible, horrible things - and start believing in them. < 1266597165 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Do you have a source for that? < 1266597177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the only solution is to abolish authority entirely, which poses a whole host of other problems. < 1266597178 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I did once, but can't remember where it was < 1266597184 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was third-hand information then already < 1266597196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/classics1981/A1981LC33300001.pdf Here's the paper by Stanley Milgram. < 1266597235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Probably the only solution is to abolish authority entirely, which poses a whole host of other problems. <-- quite. First that comes to mind is things like highway robbers and what not. < 1266597246 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, it's just a review < 1266597248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trust AnMaster to always pick on the most trivial, boring example. < 1266597249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1266597252 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn. < 1266597253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DARN IT. < 1266597255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1266597266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course. I don't want to let your expectations down. < 1266597267 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wrong link. < 1266597269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A /bigger/ problem with anarchy is preventing a state from establishing itself. < 1266597313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well yes. But I thought you didn't want authority, and a state seems to me to be the prime example of authority < 1266597315 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep, you'd have to enforce it from outside somehow < 1266597317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Here's where you could read it if you paid. http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&uid=1964-03472-001 < 1266597327 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks for the help! ...not < 1266597332 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete. < 1266597335 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee broken websites < 1266597336 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the same effect seen in the Stanford experiment is seen in reality TV too < 1266597347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Duh... of course. < 1266597348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: And prisons everywhere. < 1266597349 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can easily get people to move from the real world to an imaginary one < 1266597351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's what I said. < 1266597358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, thus I didn't think you would consider that an issue < 1266597362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that there is no state < 1266597366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: actually, there are numerous ways you could avoid establishing authority < 1266597371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You did not read what I said. < 1266597374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : A /bigger/ problem with anarchy is preventing a state from establishing itself. < 1266597381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a bad anarchy, gangs will form; < 1266597386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one gang will arm itself more than the others; < 1266597387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes. < 1266597388 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an authority of its own < 1266597394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few generations later, we will call it the state. < 1266597399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh right, I read that as the other way around < 1266597399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: no, as in societial ways < 1266597410 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266597422 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean, you ingrain the importance of anarchy into everyone so much that they assume there's no other way? < 1266597427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like teaching rational thinking to children from the very start < 1266597432 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and parents teach it to their children? < 1266597442 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, rational thinking doesn't necessarily imply anarchy, I don't think < 1266597444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, no; that's supporting ignorance - but letting people figure out why the anarchy is superior while they're children through rational means < 1266597453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: certainly < 1266597465 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ah < 1266597467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you use rational thinking and come to the conclusion that anarchy is bad, well, don't try and establish a stable anarchy :P < 1266597471 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not certain the anarchy would be superior < 1266597476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor am I < 1266597483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Anarchy is only superior if the people involved are ethical, of course... < 1266597490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you conclude rationally that it is, that is the best method of sustaining it < 1266597499 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: pretty much /any/ governmental system works if all the people involved are ethical < 1266597507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1266597508 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in such a case, you may as well use anarchy to save costs, or communism for the benefits < 1266597509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Right; the transition from state to anarchy is the hard part, because you need everyone involved to be pro-anarchy until you can teach the children about it < 1266597514 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just not going to happen in practice, though < 1266597516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need stablility for a generation or two < 1266597519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do differ largely in how they deal with a lack of ethics. < 1266597523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: right < 1266597569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I can't figure out whether the most popularly expected (and thus almost certainly wrong) post-Friendly-singularity outcome is dictatorship or anarchy < 1266597569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, the real solution is singularity. < 1266597588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would basically become the operating system for space; preventing harming another while allowing otherwise total control to everyone < 1266597598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, are the laws of physics a dictatorship? < 1266597608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if yes, then probably so is the singularity; otherwise, probably not < 1266597622 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what about the Asimov outcome? < 1266597632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define < 1266597636 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a robot government was set up for a while, but it decided that its own existence was harmful for mankind < 1266597637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, disambiguate) < 1266597638 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it phased itself out < 1266597643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: that's not a singularity < 1266597646 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it isn't < 1266597652 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can imagine a similar outcome happening from a singularity < 1266597659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Friendly seed AI would self-modify until it *is* beneficial to mankind < 1266597670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it cannot, then it suggests that mankind is perfect already, which is total bullshit. < 1266597699 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not perfect; the idea was that people inherently resent having computers in charge, and that dealt more damage than any good the computers could manage would do < 1266597703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(specifically, a seed AI with a correctly-specified supergoal, such as C.E.V., would achieve this supergoal at any cost (you account for acceptable and unacceptable losses in the supergoal)) < 1266597727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: then the singularity would improve our minds so that we did not mind the idea, which would presumably be increased intelligence + an understanding of what AI really is < 1266597738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming the supergoal does not forbid doing such things, which it probably doesn't) < 1266597742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or it would make itself voluntary < 1266597758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, perhaps, attempt to explain why it is good to the people who say no < 1266597782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it would probably still prevent harm between the people who say no, though, through simple moral imperative) < 1266597809 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhat related reading (or, at least, this stuff brought it to mind): Eliezer Yudkowsky's "Three Worlds Collide", http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ < 1266597809 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ridiculous idea: the singularity decides that there's something special about humans as they are now < 1266597815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. maybe it discovers God exists < 1266597816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: yes, I love TWC < 1266597819 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and likes humans in particular < 1266597820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I say probably, by the way, < 1266597823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean almost certainly not. < 1266597839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as does everyone else who tries to predict what the Singularity, or any other transhuman entity, will do; by definition we /cannot know/) < 1266597874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Three Worlds Collide protip: read the Normal Ending, then the True Ending < 1266597885 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, because I like trope subversion: there will be two Singularities which get created at more or less the same time < 1266597885 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. read it in order < 1266597889 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which end up jealous of each other < 1266597897 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they refuse to work as a team < 1266597901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Both Friendly, yes? < 1266597906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this messes up the typical benevolent self-improvement thing < 1266597912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, but the choice is offered in the last pre-ending chapter. < 1266597915 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they're both friendly in general, but have a blind spot where the other is concerned < 1266597924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no such thing as Friendly-in-general. :) < 1266597929 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266597939 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but if you just read top-down like most people do you'll do it right. :-P < 1266597941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If an AI is almost-Friendly, it will modify itself so that it is Friendly (unless the blind spot is in a really inconvenient place; in which case, it's Unfriendly). < 1266597961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: If they are both Friendly, then they will not be jealous of each other purely because this prevents the good outcome. < 1266597968 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266597984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If either is Unfriendly, then either the Friendly one (if there is one) will become more powerful and kill it, or we are fucked. < 1266597995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your outcome is impossible, and you should feel bad. :P < 1266598045 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, more fun: a Friendly singularity is created, but somehow sandboxed because people don't trust it < 1266598067 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can't fulfil its whole outcome, and there are people who want to turn it off in the fear it's actually Unfriendl < 1266598070 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Unfriendly < 1266598092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't box a transhuman < 1266598095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://yudkowsky.net/singularity/aibox < 1266598107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by definition it will outsmart us; and even a human can unbox itself, see above < 1266598166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a reason Creating Friendly AI is a large, serious work; because there really does seem to be no other alternative < 1266598205 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Those are no fun, they're secret < 1266598214 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... what about a singularity not happening, because nobody can afford the energy bill? < 1266598228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That irritates me too, but it's to stop people going "ha ha, that wouldn't work on me", I think. < 1266598242 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't help but think that specifically because they're secret >_< < 1266598244 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and an AI can't be brought to the level of intelligence where it could outsmart that because it would be too expensive < 1266598249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, well. Ask him :P < 1266598253 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing I just read about that stanford prison < 1266598254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: are you saying that even human + omega intelligence requires too much power? < 1266598261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: baader-meinhof phenom :P < 1266598267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: because certainly human doesn't, we're living proof < 1266598267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me, saying a transhuman would convince any human of something is like saying a human would be a superior dolphin < 1266598271 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe that's just me < 1266598277 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not quite < 1266598280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: and once it goes past a certain point of intelligence, oh snap nanotech < 1266598285 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, FFS, all you have to do is chat with a dude for a few hours and then end up saying "no" < 1266598286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it isn't a problem any more < 1266598293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, that's the whole point. < 1266598297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that human + omega intelligence implemented by humans, and therefore very inefficiently, may require too much power < 1266598311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: If the conclusion wasn't highly unintuitive, the page would not exist. < 1266598323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: That therefore doesn't follow. < 1266598327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: And the AI is self-improving, remember. < 1266598348 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I mean, that the singularity won't happen because we never get an AI to a self-improving stage < 1266598348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a massive data centre, perhaps even with specialised hardware, I find being unable to emulate a human incredibly unlikely. < 1266598355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm can a human really construct something smarter than a human? < 1266598358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the AI will be /better/ than a human then, for it will be rational. < 1266598363 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not because we're technically incapable, but because nobody will put in the effort < 1266598365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. It just can't understand the whole of it at once. < 1266598369 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I don't see any reason why not < 1266598373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, perhaps < 1266598375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I thought the same too once, but I conclude it's a silly objection based only on intuition. < 1266598380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Consider two people working together. < 1266598381 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I mean we can build things bigger, and stronger, so why not smarter? < 1266598381 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are lots of things we can't understand the whole of at once even now < 1266598384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: there is no self-improving stage < 1266598385 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if they're a lot less smart than us < 1266598389 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why would we not understand it all even if it is smarter? < 1266598390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: you build the AI to self-improve from the start < 1266598392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter how dumb it is < 1266598396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you give it the supergoal from the start, too < 1266598402 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if it's too dumb, it'll just reach a dead end < 1266598403 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, that aibox thing is really pissing me off now < 1266598404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you make it intelligent enough, manually, so that it will not fuck things up royally < 1266598407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and set it ofc < 1266598408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*off < 1266598409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, alise < 1266598413 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant what about it? < 1266598414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Email him and complain. < 1266598423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complain about what? < 1266598423 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you could just set evfunge trying to solve the problems of world hunger or whatever < 1266598424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no reason at all to get angry. < 1266598425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true that < 1266598428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: its secrecy < 1266598434 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you probably wouldn't even be able to describe the problem in enough detail < 1266598435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with that? < 1266598447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, that's what the hard part is: making it intelligent enough. < 1266598450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: He hates it. < 1266598465 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refuse to respect the unknown unknowns < 1266598469 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes < 1266598470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's like a magic show, it's not at all interesting until you know how he does it < 1266598472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Then email him. < 1266598477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting angry is just, well, irrational. < 1266598487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's meant to be a warning, not a show :P < 1266598500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "angry" < 1266598512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Probably the hardest part is: You cannot turn it on. Is it done yet? No, completely done? Have you /proven/ it will work? In independent systems? No? Then you cannot turn it on. < 1266598522 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it doesn't seem like a magic trick to me < 1266598527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Can you even /imagine/ writing a program like that? < 1266598536 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: people would be bound to try test runs < 1266598539 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: to me it's an interesting psychological experiment, i don't care about the AI aspect < 1266598545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No. You cannot. < 1266598545 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I have imagined writing programs like that, but only very simple ones < 1266598556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sure it's sort of a crucial part of the experiment, but maybe you know what i mean. < 1266598557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you are sure it is Friendly, you cannot turn it on. < 1266598557 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I don't think it works < 1266598567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only be sure of that when it's completely done and proved correct multiple times. < 1266598577 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I don't think humans would be capable of proving an AI Friendly < 1266598583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cannot" as in "cannot by sheer risk". < 1266598607 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I don't trust humans in general not to do ridiculously risky things < 1266598610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a self-improving AI of a certain minimum intelligence, and it is not Friendly, and you run it, the world will end. < 1266598634 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a slightly tangential subject, I've been wondering if there are any Hello Worlds around which are completely bug-free < 1266598638 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if the answer is no < 1266598639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, doing nothing is highly risky, as someone else might create an Unfriendly AI; getting responsible, highly intelligent people to create a Friendly seed AI is the most responsible thing < 1266598645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include < 1266598671 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standard C hello world has a few bugs, such as not handling output redirected to a disk which is full < 1266598671 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How would e-mailing him help? He explicitly says he won't tell anybody < 1266598677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void) { if (puts("Hello, world!") == EOF) { return EXIT_FAILURE; } return EXIT_SUCCESS; } < 1266598694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Ask for his reasoning. Either you'll be convinced or you'll only have wasted a very small amount of time. < 1266598722 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have wasted /his/ time, which is rude < 1266598740 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant -- you haven't said WHY this is annoying or you don't like it < 1266598744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, you Finn. < 1266598749 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266598753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I'm sure he's so pro-knowledge that he would not mind. < 1266598757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's that kind of guy. < 1266598763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1266598789 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I cannot possibly fathom what could bring someone to change their minds thusly < 1266598801 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I am annoyed that not even a hint is given < 1266598801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: And that is why you would. < 1266598821 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ?? < 1266598837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you could fathom, without seeing, why you would lose, you would not lose. < 1266598848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since you cannot, the AI can manipulate you in this way, making you lose. < 1266598863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? Non sequitur < 1266598869 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the whole secret box thing, I can easily imagine how an AI would be let out of the box < 1266598872 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eliezer is not a superhuman AI < 1266598883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: But he knows something you do not (how to win the AI Box experiment). < 1266598895 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solution, presumably, would be to have too many layers of indirection < 1266598898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you found out that one secret, the point is that he, a mere human, achieved it. < 1266598906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what would someone more intelligent than us think of? < 1266598909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We cannot know - that's the point. < 1266598919 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise he doesn't know how to win it < 1266598921 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm willing to believe the concept < 1266598928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: He won twice. < 1266598928 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he just wanted to test if he had the ability < 1266598929 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the only person who can talk to the AI can't themselves let the AI out of the box, then you have one layer of indirection in that the AI has to teach them to let someone else let them out of the box < 1266598942 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I'm finding difficult to believe is specifically Yudkowsky winning < 1266598945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: "Come over here, read this! You won't believe it" < 1266598948 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he did actually win more than twice, but he also lost in a couple of times < 1266598951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, he is a very intelligent man. < 1266598952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no < 1266598955 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiply that times hundreds of layers of abstraction and governmental-level forms < 1266598956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So far, this test has actually been run on two occasions. < 1266598958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Results of the first test: Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nathan Russell. [1][2][3][4] < 1266598958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Results of the second test: Eliezer Yudkowsky and David McFadzean. [1] [2] [3] < 1266598961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he won both times < 1266598962 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I am saying he doesn't have a winning strategy < 1266598971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's most like running faster than someone else < 1266598979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember that the other party is intelligent, too; he got them from the SL4 mailing list. < 1266598985 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think even a typical average human could learn a winning strategy for that, given enough effort < 1266598986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, but consider that he's /human/. < 1266598987 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that's why he didn't always win < 1266598991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he did < 1266598992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1266598995 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh what does being human have to do with it < 1266598996 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266598996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he won every time < 1266599005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because a seed AI that wanted to escape would be /transhuman/ < 1266599008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more intelligent than humans < 1266599013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we would not be able to predict how it would subvert us < 1266599020 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it would win every time with unlimited high stakes :P < 1266599026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be able to manipulate us like toys, by the sheer fact that it is more intelligent than us < 1266599033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yes, for humans < 1266599033 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yudkowski just wins most of the times, when the stakes are < $2000 < 1266599039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: but not for transhuman < 1266599040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1266599044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: *Yudkowsky < 1266599050 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266599053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the challengers were *very* sure of themselves < 1266599058 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I mean, a typical human could win every time, so a transhuman would have no trouble < 1266599062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they seemed to have a huge point to prove and were very forceful < 1266599068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :their conceding emails, meek and concise < 1266599073 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's a big part of it, I think he needed that because otherwise he wasn't testing himself < 1266599076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ah, yes < 1266599085 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a typical human without training < 1266599097 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, in his coming of age series he talks about other times when he run this experiment and didn't win < 1266599097 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, say, magicians have lots of practice getting people to miss a particular details < 1266599107 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*miss a particular detail < 1266599111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, point is: Since Yudkowsky did it, as a human, the risk with an entity of massively greater-than-human intelligence is too great to consider. < 1266599121 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine compelling someone to do something in particular through psychology is, with practice, just as easy < 1266599121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266599124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a box is not a viable risk-reduction strategy. Only Friendliness is. < 1266599131 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I needed any convincing of that :P < 1266599133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ah, ok then < 1266599138 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my RL acquaintances has fun getting strangers to randomly give him their wallets < 1266599147 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hell? < 1266599148 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he gives them back, but it's always funny < 1266599150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that aibox link is _not_ up to date. i do recall another page where he said he has done it more times, and lost some. < 1266599157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1266599159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: via psychology < 1266599159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, as I said < 1266599162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :human vs transhuman < 1266599170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sl4.org/archive/0207/4689.html -- as recently as 2002, EY had the most annoying IRC habit ever! < 1266599179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION says to scarf: "He did this instead of normal messages." < 1266599179 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic trick is to make them assume they're supposed to give you something while they have their wallet in their hands < 1266599201 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but that's a bit different < 1266599214 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hmm, is it theoretically possible to have an /unbreakable/ box < 1266599214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No it's not; tricking people is exactly what an Unfriendly AI would do to escape. < 1266599215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol it must be fun talking to Eliezer for two hours < 1266599217 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's abusing the subconscious to make them give you something other than what they think you're giving you < 1266599221 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, one that nobody could let the transhuman out of even if they wanted to? < 1266599222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole point is that its moral system is insufficient. < 1266599238 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise couldn't a friendly AI convince it's way out too though? < 1266599240 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is no, but I'm not certain < 1266599240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Theoretically. But I imagine a transhuman could find laws in ANY human code so complex. < 1266599250 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then go on to be really good to people more efficiently. < 1266599251 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes, but that isn't a problem < 1266599252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: One way of letting it out: Remove the box code. < 1266599254 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1266599264 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, I was assuming an actual physical box here < 1266599265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: If we cannot let it out entirely without rewriting it - well, the AI would rewrite itself. It can do that; it's self-modifying. < 1266599272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah most human codes have laws < 1266599272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Then no, that is impossible. < 1266599285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Of course, if it is somehow literally impossible to let it out of the box... then it is useless. < 1266599292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once we are sure it is Friendly, the whole point is to let it out. < 1266599297 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sure, you presumably need to trick people (or he wouldn't've won), but you still need to type exactly "I am letting you, the AI, out now"; that's more like "I'm giving you what's in my hands" where he's wrong about what's in his hands < 1266599298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise it's a waste of time (and immoral). < 1266599307 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the idea I'm thinking of, is to get one that you're sure is Friendly, somehow < 1266599308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: True. < 1266599313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: then you need no box < 1266599319 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then let it be the only thing that can make the decision of whether to let a /different/ AI out of the box < 1266599322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let it out; that's the end-goal of a singularity < 1266599324 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you box it, then make sure it's Friendly < 1266599331 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it specifically says it wasn't a cheap trick < 1266599333 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is, then it should have no problem with letting a different AI go singularity < 1266599334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in between those two, it escapes because it's Unfriendly < 1266599339 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't know whether it's Friendly < 1266599355 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, that's what I meant. < 1266599355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We cannot be sure of anything < 1266599359 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266599364 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the problem is that you can't be sure the first one is Friendly < 1266599365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we must prove the AI Friendly multiple times in different systems in different ways before running it < 1266599369 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't we be sure? < 1266599375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because we are fallible < 1266599379 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: But I can't help but think there's /some/ kind of trick involved in making the guy believe that letting it out is better. < 1266599382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what use is two proofs compared to one < 1266599382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can /always/ have made an error and missed it, or proved the wrong thing, etc < 1266599389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because the computerised proof system could have flaws < 1266599399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the proof could end up proving the wrong thing, so another way of proving it helps too < 1266599411 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have an AI in a box, you should never let it out. Simple as that. You can /never/ know /anything/ about it. < 1266599428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't beleive so < 1266599446 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point of mathematics is that you can make accurate statements about the infinite mind < 1266599455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"infinite mind"? < 1266599460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No mind is "infinite", whatever that means. < 1266599464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, yes, in mathematics. < 1266599470 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing for anything potentially dangerous like that, really: humans too. < 1266599472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But our proofs, our proof systems - they are all fallible because we made them. < 1266599481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a quote (Takeuti) < 1266599494 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266599495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: anyway, you can know it's Friendly to an acceptable degree of risk < 1266599502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you work that out /before/ you run it, of course < 1266599506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and never bother with a useless box < 1266599520 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lesswrong.com/lw/uq/ais_and_gatekeepers_unite/ says '2 heavily promoted "victories" (the 3 "losses" are mentioned far less frequently)' < 1266599525 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"they are all fallible because we made them" -- isn't that a pretty basic fallacy ? < 1266599532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: and EY is human < 1266599534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transhumans arenot < 1266599535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a CHRISTIAN said it, it must be wrong! < 1266599537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are not < 1266599551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yeah, that's a pretty basic one. < 1266599551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only would it be incomprehensibly better at it: it would be faster. < 1266599554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, as I and MissPiggy have both said, transhumans are fine. I had a problem specifically with EY. < 1266599558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two hours with Yudkowsky; seconds with a superintelligence. < 1266599559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: OK. < 1266599561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I agree. < 1266599561 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1266599565 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's not "must be", it's "can be" < 1266599566 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say transhumans are fine < 1266599568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was just an example that the risk is high, not a proof that EY is transhuman :P < 1266599574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: transhumans are fine for the ai box < 1266599578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also, I meant that < 1266599582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a high risk they are fallible < 1266599582 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be wrong even if it's claimed by a computer < 1266599584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we are fallible < 1266599586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah you know what i mean < 1266599594 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what does "transhumans are fine for the AI box" mean < 1266599602 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't get transhumanism it seems ridiculous to me < 1266599610 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trans humans? < 1266599613 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TBH I'm a bit doubtful even of transhumans but transhumanity implies so many things that whatever, I have to accept it as a possibility < 1266599615 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are transhumans like transfats? < 1266599634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Well, we take a human. And make them more than human. < 1266599646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am using transhuman to refer to an entity of greater-than-human intelligence. < 1266599647 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more organs = more human! < 1266599648 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I meant that we both agreed that if you have an actual superhuman AI, it can win the AI box experiment and get itself let out. < 1266599652 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you more than human if you have cancer? < 1266599658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As do all transhumans, substituting intelligence for some other characteristic occasionally. < 1266599671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pop-sci definition of transhumanism is just horseshit, we don't want to breed with pigs or anything. < 1266599675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(apart from me!) < 1266599676 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't? < 1266599678 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No, still pretty damned human. < 1266599682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the /others/ don't < 1266599687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I didn't know you cared! < 1266599695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1266599758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm rather sure just giving the computer lots of brains wouldn't make it great at convincing people, sort of like how really smart people can suck at talking to humans. i think it would have to be so smart it could actually study the human brain to learn how humans should act in different situations. sort of how a human wouldn't make a great doplhin no matter how much we studied them. < 1266599763 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what about this for a theory < 1266599787 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason that transhumans won't exist is to prevent them breaking out of the sandbox which surrounds what we think the Universe currently si < 1266599788 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1266599794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: of course a transhuman AI would Know How Humans Work < 1266599796 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the movie avatar basically says that humans would make great dolphins. < 1266599804 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: how? < 1266599806 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: that's an interesting point -- but don't you think the AI could just treat a human as a program (that doesn't have a manual)? < 1266599811 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it study physical brains? < 1266599812 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, we're in a simulation; if we create a transhuman it'll break out /of the simulation/ to the universe outside, and whoever's simulating us is too scared of that to let that happen < 1266599816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see any other way < 1266599818 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because /it/ might not be Friendly < 1266599826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it would study how we react to us, and how we reason < 1266599827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and psychology < 1266599828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266599842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, a superintelligence (superintelligence > transhuman; basically, not only of greater intelligence, of incomprehensibly vastly greater intelligence) could predict how we would react to a situation with near-1 probability < 1266599842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but we can't even figure out how ants work based on watching them < 1266599849 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf ooh I like that < 1266599857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply because we are so unintelligent compared to it that it is trivial for it to reason how we would react < 1266599860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: because we're humans, not transhumans < 1266599869 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have incomprehensibly vast intelligence, and i can't really do that < 1266599869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but we are transants < 1266599870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so are not intelligent enough < 1266599880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes, but you need a certain level of intelligence to even do that to any system < 1266599885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transX != can understand X < 1266599892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sufficiently transhuman = can understand ants < 1266599902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more transhuman = same, but with humans < 1266599908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superintelligence = can understand just about anything below it < 1266599913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: dunno, i stick to my ants and dolphins. < 1266599922 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266600010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm vastly more intelligent than your mom. Does that make me transmom? < 1266600013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I doubt that there's anything more complicated to the AI getting free than a very good Hannibal Lecture: find weaknesses in the Gatekeeper's mental and social framework, and callously and subtly work them until you break the Gatekeeper (and thus the gate). People claiming they have no weaknesses (wanna-be Gatekeepers, with a bias to ignoring their weakness) are easy prey: they don't even see where they should be defending." < 1266600013 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is it possible to have something superintelligent enough that it can fully predict its own actions? < 1266600015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much, I'd say < 1266600019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I'm not certain < 1266600031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well you /are/ male, so you've got the trans bit down < 1266600033 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that quote is close to what I was thinking < 1266600042 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone has weaknesses < 1266600042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yes, but the technical term for being smarter than her is "even more transmom" < 1266600053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: we do that all the time, we look into the future < 1266600064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't predict its reaction to situation X without the information it will know at that time, though < 1266600066 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yep, but we're not very good at it < 1266600077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't predict the unknown future, no matter how intelligent it is :) < 1266600087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd probably be very good at knowing what it'd do assuming it doesn't change /vastly/ < 1266600102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: is it possible to have something superintelligent enough that it can fully predict its own actions? <-- err no I doubt that. try predicting: "Will I halt?" < 1266600112 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every time someone in this conversation uses the word 'vast', take a shot < 1266600121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: it's a useful word < 1266600126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, rabble rabble bark bark. < 1266600127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's vastly useful < 1266600127 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just because the halting problem is unsolvable in general doesn't mean it's unsolvable in any particular case < 1266600129 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vastly useful < 1266600129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: That will involve vast quantities of alcohol. < 1266600140 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I beat you to it by a vast margin < 1266600144 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of programs that can trivially be shown to halt, or to not halt < 1266600146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does foo () { foo() } halt < 1266600148 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will i halt? yes *shoots himself* < 1266600156 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1266600159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: warning: you CANNOT ANSWER THIS < 1266600163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: which language, and does its optimiser do tail-recursion? < 1266600163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what language < 1266600166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1266600167 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LISP < 1266600168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you fucking pedants :) < 1266600168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can answer it in befunge ;P < 1266600171 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266600172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: irrelevant, infinite memory < 1266600175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the latter question) < 1266600178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true. Still, it seems unlikely that an AI will be a simple program < 1266600183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(define (foo) (foo)) < 1266600184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scheme < 1266600190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: irrelevant < 1266600195 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I correct in assuming alise is ehird, because who else would have a female nickname? < 1266600195 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge foo () { foo () } < 1266600197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're not simple programs, we can still predict what we'll do to some extent < 1266600200 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unsupported instruction 'f' (0x66) (maybe not Befunge-93?) < 1266600203 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament is correctable < 1266600204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you are < 1266600212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Sukoshi-x or whatever she was called :P < 1266600218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, ehird) < 1266600219 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, it spammed me with error messages in an infinite loop < 1266600220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in befunge98 as in egobot that will reflect due to file IO being disabled iirc < 1266600220 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway back to AI! < 1266600222 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sukoshi is not a female nickname < 1266600224 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sukoshi isn't female < 1266600230 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, I was vastly beat < 1266600231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does sukoshi ever come around? < 1266600232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot the actual name < 1266600232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until EgoBot itself halted it < 1266600233 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she isn't? < 1266600233 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she's female but the nickname isn't < 1266600235 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the name < 1266600240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright then < 1266600240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but there will be no stdio in that program < 1266600245 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no she hasn't been around in years < 1266600248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I've been sexed up twice already!) < 1266600250 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: who cares if it reflects or not, given that it has no halt instructions? < 1266600252 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's too bad she was cool < 1266600252 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266600263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one time sukoshi just randomly decided to try to get me to do a programming project with me < 1266600267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i was like mmm sex < 1266600269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true. < 1266600273 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: With yourself? < 1266600288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no with her < 1266600290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but it will halt on any real system after some time due to memory running out. < 1266600299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should masturbate more often if thinking of a programming project with yourself gets you excited like that < 1266600300 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wonders if oklopol is the only openly heterosexual person here < 1266600301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, assuming no file io < 1266600317 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what does } do if there's no preceding { < 1266600319 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reflect? < 1266600323 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't help it, i love vaginas < 1266600324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, *think* so < 1266600328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: are you hetero? < 1266600333 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'll just bounce between the } and f < 1266600334 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes < 1266600338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: then the answer is no. < 1266600341 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love pickled vaginas < 1266600341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a while since 少し has been here. < 1266600342 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It's just that programming by yourself doesn't usually imply them < 1266600343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in 98 it won't bounce on the f. < 1266600344 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummmmmm < 1266600344 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, now < 1266600346 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, before < 1266600349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: bah! < 1266600350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was someone saying something about AI? < 1266600351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, f will push 0xf on the stack < 1266600351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Few years, I think. < 1266600352 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: oh lol < 1266600353 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266600354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember < 1266600356 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*with her < 1266600358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: are you saying that a function call cannot call another function to determine its answer? < 1266600366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because human sociality has side-effects... < 1266600377 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ours! We're pure < 1266600377 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i'm secretly sukoshi < 1266600378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: r u fag < 1266600383 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sorry, I've lost the context somehow, there are four conversations going on at once < 1266600394 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: pikhq is openly straight < 1266600397 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll terminate one or two < 1266600398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266600416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I apologise, it's a shame when a conversation ends for a stupid reason like that < 1266600429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: more than one person openly hetero = do x <- determine scarf's sexuality; make sure x is hetero; return yes!! < 1266600431 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are straight people basically self-hating? < 1266600440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick lets start another 5 discussions! < 1266600442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people don't find themselves very attractive < 1266600446 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they sublimate their hatred of themselves into liking of the opposite sex < 1266600446 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh < 1266600451 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's answering a different question, though < 1266600464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh shut up < 1266600472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm attractive < 1266600502 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I think it varies from person to person; I met a girl once who openly claimed that all men should be straight and all girls should be lesbian or bisexual, on the basis that girls were just that attractive < 1266600502 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i'm the only attractive male i know < 1266600514 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: :-D < 1266600520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: a lot of stupid men are like that :P < 1266600526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: at this point, augur cries < 1266600538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait but a girl? < 1266600541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just read that as guy, man, whatever < 1266600545 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes, that's what made it surprising < 1266600546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferrence engine playing up again < 1266600556 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all girls shuold be bi, all men should be bi, and people should live in these big sex communes < 1266600568 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think a self improving AI program would be written like? < 1266600575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we could just have universities be those communes, that would be a perfect world < 1266600592 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it would be written in dubious PHP < 1266600596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what is the English word for a train that got thrown of the rails now again? < 1266600598 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, people are just that stupid < 1266600600 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: derailed < 1266600603 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: fix improveSelf < 1266600608 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's more falling off than being thrown < 1266600609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, we should all be bi poly switch herms. < 1266600616 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@src improveSelf < 1266600620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Complicatedly. < 1266600627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah, can it be used in a metaphorical sense about a discussion (like the Swedish equiv. term can) < 1266600640 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it can < 1266600643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, if so, I think that applies to this/these discussion(s) < 1266600647 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some idioms survive the language switch < 1266600656 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I don't see why a derailed discussion is necessarily a bad thing on IRC < 1266600665 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf because the new one is boring :P < 1266600665 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's being done socially, rather than an actual attempt to achieve somethign < 1266600666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hard to know what languages copied/also-invented a given idiom < 1266600667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*something < 1266600674 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been trying to derail this one for the past 20 minutes and i'm still not sure i succeeded < 1266600681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : OTOH, I don't see why a derailed discussion is necessarily a bad thing on IRC <-- I didn't say that < 1266600684 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: which one? < 1266600686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, you didn't < 1266600690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is quite common in this channel even < 1266600698 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: i don't even want to mention it for fear it might recur < 1266600700 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because I say something doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with you < 1266600715 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sex stuff is easier on the brain, if i wanted to talk about interesting stuff, i could just be reading my books < 1266600716 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not alise < 1266600716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, it was probably derailed *before* you began, thus you should probably try to rerail it instead < 1266600722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well technically that's not talking < 1266600736 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what books oklobook < 1266600742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i agree, this is better for many reasons < 1266600748 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: universal algebra still < 1266600750 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266600754 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to do some work < 1266600757 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-159-108-150.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266600762 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I am very unmotivated < 1266600772 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually also combinatorics on words and complex analysis and some other stuff < 1266600802 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're motivated, it's easy to motivate yourself to do pretty much anything < 1266600825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266600833 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266600837 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're motivated, it's easy to motivate yourself to motivate yourself to be motivated... < 1266600959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, tree rewriting. < 1266600970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of that recent xkcd that wasn't a complete disaster < 1266600976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about tautologies < 1266601003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one was fun. < 1266601005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266601007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also kinda boring. < 1266601015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1266601025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it wasn't exactly a unique idea or anything. < 1266601028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266601034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just "ha ha, it's a silly social situation that amounts to a tautology if you interpret it naively." < 1266601035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well boring xkcds are kinda boring < 1266601039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266601056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I said it wasn't a complete disaster. I didn't say it was great. < 1266601069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : just because I say something doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with you < 1266601070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not alise < 1266601074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, scratch that one. < 1266601077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266601095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, perfect quoting there ;P < 1266601106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called a joke. :P < 1266601126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I somewhat hoped it was unintentional, it would have been funnier < 1266601163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I ought to think more about typed tree rewriting. < 1266601172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266601195 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what sucks? tree rewriting < 1266601206 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if one of your trees is MS Word DOM < 1266601211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266601219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does ms word have a dom? < 1266601228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait, it is xml based nowdays < 1266601230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it does < 1266601236 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it has a dom < 1266601251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, did old-pre-docx word have a dom then? < 1266601262 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266601268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: not tree rewriting like that. < 1266601290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, if so, doesn't every document have a dom? possibly even plain text? < 1266601350 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1266601373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, then how do you define a DOM < 1266601388 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bunch of objects representing something < 1266601394 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plain text only has one object < 1266601399 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a particularly simple dom < 1266601400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266601418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but if the document format is not object based? < 1266601426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may have DOM but do you have DOOM? < 1266601428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >_< < 1266601429 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: eg? < 1266601431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ... < 1266601435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/^ // < 1266601437 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how can something not be object based? < 1266601442 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266601443 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easily < 1266601449 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :latex, i guess < 1266601461 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda stupid to talk about dom in latex < 1266601464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: how the heck do you manage to >_< my jokes so quickly < 1266601468 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, not latex < 1266601468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I was thinking of latex documents without pictures yes < 1266601470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant AnMaster < 1266601471 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean ps < 1266601473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for being an idiot < 1266601485 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impossible, it's the second time today < 1266601486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How can you make an OBJECT of something that isn't OBJECT-BASED?? What is this DOM mystery????" < 1266601487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO < 1266601514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, ps? oh that too indeed. Even more so. < 1266601519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266601521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you objectify it, of course. just watch out for the feminists. < 1266601528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could consider a page an object < 1266601537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except iirc it isn't defined like that in the ps code < 1266601602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but please define a DOM for ps then :) < 1266601613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You only use the diarrhea^Wdiresis when it's the same letter twice, right? < 1266601624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you don't. < 1266601646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "metaethics" is actually spelt metathics. < 1266601657 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any two vowels, to show that they aren't a dipthong < 1266601677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that ridiculously clunky most of the time? :P < 1266601682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People will think you're writing in german. < 1266601689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do like how premptive looks, though. < 1266601699 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if there is porn of people pretending to be feminists... < 1266601701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cofficint < 1266601704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, wouldn't it be yöu then? < 1266601711 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: err, really? < 1266601714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y isn't a vowel there, I don't think... < 1266601716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gërman ïs just lïkë thïs, rïght? < 1266601718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: really what? < 1266601718 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me it would be coëfficient < 1266601719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh right < 1266601721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot that < 1266601727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a a vowel in Swedish though < 1266601727 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :becaise ie form a dipthong in that word, the way I pronounce it < 1266601729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Co eff fishy ent. < 1266601730 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*because < 1266601742 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: co eff fish shent < 1266601751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one issue with the diresis; your spelling depends on your pronunciation. < 1266601760 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, if people put the dipthongs in, people would have consistent pronunciation! < 1266601762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dutch uses the same mark in a similar way, (for example cofficint), but for compound words there is now a preference for hyphenation - so zeeend (seaduck) is now spelled zee-eend.[3] < 1266601786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity, that's a great word < 1266601794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1266601796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is there any unicode symbol for i without the dot? < 1266601806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is zeend for you, my duck-loving enemy! < 1266601819 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: surely, it's a turkish letter < 1266601829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266601838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess a good rule for the diresis would be: only use it if replacing it with a hyphen wouldn't look ridiculously silly. "co-effici-ent" looks silly; "co-efficient", I think, doesn't. < 1266601871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate the word coefficient!!!!! < 1266601879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to write a typomogrifier program that does the boring stuff like smart quotes, but also ae to , oe to , stuffvowel-vowelstuff to stuffvowel(vowel)stuff, etc. < 1266601882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, why? < 1266601886 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it SUCKS < 1266601888 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266601889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, *why* < 1266601890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you'd have to write "co-efficient" a lot, but still. < 1266601898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you could plug in rules, like coefficient -> co-efficient. < 1266601905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would then reduce to cofficient. < 1266601922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, by that logic shouldn't you write dis-able for example? or de-normalise? < 1266601954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :de-norm alise < 1266601963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s isn't a vowel, AnMaster. < 1266601969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, err, isn't it de-normal-ise? < 1266601987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course norm and normal are quite close < 1266602005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data point: The New Yorker (though I loathe to follow any rules it prefers, as it's a pretentious rag in general and especially in this area) only uses the diresis for repeated vowels. < 1266602006 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266602010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now where did i put that figlet *whoosh* again... < 1266602022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So premptive but coefficient. < 1266602026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well true. still using a - there doesn't make much sense to me. It seems like co/de/un/re/dis are common modifying prefixes to words in English < 1266602029 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: wait, someone uses the diaeresis /at all/? < 1266602037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and a few more) < 1266602056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: "Despite its long history in English, the diresis is now increasingly rarely used, with the The New Yorker magazine[2] and MIT Technology Review being prominent exceptions." < 1266602057 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266602063 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why isn't it spelt diæ̈resis? < 1266602071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: wait, someone uses the diaeresis /at all/? <--- my reaction too < 1266602076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because is pronounced < 1266602078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a-e :P < 1266602085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diah erry sis < 1266602093 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, I mean diaeresis over the æ itself < 1266602099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, it's a separate vowel from the i < 1266602102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1266602106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how would you pronounce æ? Same as æ/ä in Scandinavian languages? < 1266602110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dye a re-sys is how I pronounce it < 1266602114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, you're right. < 1266602117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's just ridiculous. < 1266602120 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I pronounce it dee erri sis < 1266602121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: e, basically. < 1266602123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a. < 1266602123 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266602126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :, is how you pronounce it. < 1266602131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so quite different then < 1266602134 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: like ae in Latin < 1266602141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I don't know latin < 1266602141 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally < 1266602146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, dmon is pronounced demon, I believe. < 1266602149 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just pronounced like an e sometimes, though, like in that word < 1266602173 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's inconsistent, compare "daemon" to "paella" < 1266602181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth is paella? < 1266602187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paella < 1266602189 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second comes from Latin indirectly, which goes some way to explaining the discrepancy < 1266602189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know either. < 1266602195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought paella was paëlla < 1266602204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in pronunciation) < 1266602213 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aëaëaëaëaëaëaë < 1266602216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's not plla, it's paella. < 1266602218 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's more like paeëlla < 1266602228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does not bode well for my transmogrifier. :) < 1266602229 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not pa-ella < 1266602232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but pie-ella < 1266602237 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suksi paeëlla < 1266602238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd just write p{ae}lla, I guess. < 1266602239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that looks like something from Finland < 1266602246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"paeëlla" I mean < 1266602249 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266602261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Paella is a Catalan word which derives from the Old French word paelle for pan which in turn comes from the Latin word patella for pan as well." < 1266602264 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my only conclusion is that English spelling makes no sense < 1266602280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paella is not an English word. < 1266602300 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes it is, just because it originally came from another language doesn't stop it being English < 1266602304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, nor does most other languages with a written form of the language that is old enough < 1266602304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1266602314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But English is basically the T (top) of languages. < 1266602317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We encompasserate everything. < 1266602322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what age is the limit though, I would guess a few hundred years < 1266602326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't love Compose any more. TeX-style input is better. < 1266602328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write \top, dammit. < 1266602334 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is relatively certain that "encompasserate" isn't a word < 1266602342 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think I know what it means, anyway < 1266602350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you have 4 different ways to spell one and the same sound (which also happens to exist in no other languages)? < 1266602362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also \"e but that's just a Special Case < 1266602372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls reading a claim about an indian language which was considered to encompass all of english < 1266602372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Also, I don't love Compose any more. TeX-style input is better. <-- easy in ERC ;P < 1266602391 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably < 1266602399 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most sounds in English have something like 10 ways to spell them < 1266602399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, in reply to what? < 1266602407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so you're not encompassionate about it? < 1266602407 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the 4 different ways thing < 1266602417 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ouch, is that even a pun? < 1266602418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lienate < 1266602425 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels pun-like, but not exactly fitting the description < 1266602427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is _now_ < 1266602428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well okay, but most sounds aren't unique to English though < 1266602428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, I know.) < 1266602455 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to mention that vowel sounds are different in different parts of the UK anyway < 1266602459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a puntmanteau < 1266602467 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: stop it, seriously < 1266602483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: am i getting your computer wet? < 1266602486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_alphabet#Spellings_for_the_sje-phoneme_.2F.C9.A7.2F < 1266602493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually more than 4 < 1266602500 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, I'm feeling physically ill < 1266602515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 4 quite common variants < 1266602521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1266602533 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully it's just tiredness rather than bad puns < 1266602543 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although bad puns have induced similar effects in me before, probably psychosomatic < 1266602552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and iirc no other language has that sound basically, possibly apart from Norwegian (looks at oerjan) < 1266602574 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are other fun phonemes, like "ly" in Hungarian < 1266602584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that my linguistic and typographic style is at odds with my sthetics in other areas. < 1266602591 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I can even pronounce well enough that a Hungarian would know what I meant, if not well enough to sound anything like a native < 1266602612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, how comes? < 1266602624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and what does it sound like roughly? < 1266602628 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was in Hungary for a week < 1266602632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I revel in things like , and direses, but eschew such fancy in my other areas. < 1266602650 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and start to say l, except you inhale in the middle of it and end with a Germanish j, (rather like an English y) < 1266602658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, then you picked it up quite quick < 1266602664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i assume you mean sj, which is not the same sound in norwegian. although we _do_ have several spellings for the equivalent (sj, skj, sk) < 1266602668 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we had lessons on how to pronounce hungarian < 1266602669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, Germanish j = Swedish one? < 1266602673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, fderal. < 1266602673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know german < 1266602674 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably < 1266602685 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: to me, that second letter looks like a half-size s-acute < 1266602687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right < 1266602689 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encoding issues? < 1266602693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has been practicing swedish sj lately while singing in the shower :D < 1266602694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: oe < 1266602701 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, weird encoding issues < 1266602701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, can you pronounce a Swedish "sju"? < 1266602708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i _think_ so < 1266602714 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not ś, but œ < 1266602718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for the benefit of UK people: sv:sju = en:seven) < 1266602731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the swedish u isn't quite the same as norwegian either, i understand < 1266602742 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ours is middle, not front) < 1266602756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, heh that came out as it's not ś, but [box with numbers in it] < 1266602767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I saw what alise said < 1266602780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i _think_ means our u is rarer than the swedish one, i'm not entirely sure though < 1266602785 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I was just pasting what I saw < 1266602796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, more like the Finland-Swedish u? < 1266602810 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah, I think I just accidentally got first post on a Slashdot article < 1266602817 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I even said something vaguely sensible < 1266602819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, further back and tongue more curved I think < 1266602848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, link? < 1266602854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about every other non-sv speaking person? < 1266602860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :US, Canada, Finnish... < 1266602873 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/02/19/1614216/Jacobsen-v-Katzer-Settled-mdash-Victory-For-FOSS?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Slashdot%2Fslashdot+%28Slashdot%29 < 1266602879 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the literal "mdash" in the URL < 1266602883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, true, but writing "non-Scandinavian" was longer and there did only seem to be UK people present < 1266602898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finland is scandinavian. probably < 1266602899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyahhnn < 1266602902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yep < 1266602911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't understand swedish < 1266602913 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jacobsen v katzer's a pretty interesting court case, actually < 1266602923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, none of those people here atm < 1266602929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the last two screens for me < 1266602941 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, jacobsen wrote an open source project (licenced artistic licence), katzer completely ripped it off, not complying with the licence, nor even preserving attribution < 1266602946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, true, but writing "non-Scandinavian" was longer and there did only seem to be UK people present < 1266602949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even that would be wrong < 1266603007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ? You mean me and oerjan, well that was given that we understood it < 1266603021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I only saw you and scarf in scrollback in addition to that < 1266603071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that does not stop it being wrong < 1266603092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how? < 1266603120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, log reading, and if they are from US or whatever they could use this info. It is optional to feel bad about doing so. < 1266603148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were attempting to provide a strictly-correct alternative < 1266603158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to a wrong one; and then gave reasons why you did not say this < 1266603168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, you failed the first; "non-scandinavian" would not be correct < 1266603177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, your statement was not correct < 1266603179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple < 1266603180 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads the settlment < 1266603201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, iirc you are taught some Swedish in Finnish schools < 1266603204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I guess the Finns in here, at least, understand Swedish to a reasonable extent < 1266603210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is second language < 1266603212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb phone < 1266603222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very small second language. < 1266603244 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know how actively scientific-type people tend to forget it after their last compulsory lessons are over < 1266603292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266603313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, still, learning to count to ten would be amongst the basic things < 1266603315 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie is older than me and so could weigh in here < 1266603327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least from my experience of learning second languages < 1266603349 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, settlement is that Katzer and his company cannot use the OSS code in question at all, can't register any names similar to it as a trademark, and must pay $100,000 to Jacobsen; further disputes have to go to mediation, with the loser paying all the costs from them < 1266603390 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the court's entered the settlement as being legally binding < 1266603395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so knowing that sju = 7 should probably be pretty common. If it had been some complex word it would have been a different situation. < 1266603837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ought to work on my term-rewriting language. < 1266603858 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise are you going to self implement it < 1266603863 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in the language < 1266603922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you ought to work on a language with a very non-traditional syntax thats only describable by one of the roughly mildly context sensitive grammars ;D < 1266603925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, the eventual goal is probably that, yes most likely as part of the OS. < 1266603940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially those MCSGs that I recently created wiki articles for :D < 1266603954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I thought you said tree rewriting, not term rewriting a few minutes ago? < 1266603989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing < 1266604028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, in some cases < 1266604061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1266604063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are the same thing. < 1266604140 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :string rewriting and tree rewriting are computationally equivalent; tree rewriting just makes implicit certain string properties that otherwise would be explicit < 1266604166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, a string can be viewed as a tree with only one non-terminal node < 1266604222 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus string rewriting is a special case of tree rewriting with completely flat trees < 1266604470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? tree rewriting lets you do string rewriting in the nodes? < 1266604503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no < 1266604511 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you rewrite the tree < 1266604532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just that the tree is completely flat, with all terminal nodes hanging from a single non-terminal < 1266604538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhh < 1266604543 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, being an idiot < 1266604550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266604550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one *non*-terminal node < 1266604672 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1266604676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no, afi < 1266604982 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266605344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I had managed to mostly-forget my Swedish very muchly after high-school years, but on the other hand it seemed to come back rather rapidly when I did one course to pass the compulsory Swedish stuff for the university. I don't know how much I'm biased by the fact that my wife speaks Swedish with her relatives, though. < 1266605423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you get an opportunity to get the Swedish credits without taking a course, just doing an exam? < 1266605553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, but I didn't feel certain enough that I'd pass it without problems. In retrospect, I probably would have, since I only sat on the Swedish course lectures -- didn't read ~anything at home -- and got a 5 (out of 5) for the course, and the higher grade of the two possible for the compulsory part. < 1266605590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266605591 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. < 1266605610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but even before you forgot most of the Swedish you surely remembered a few words? < 1266605621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably how to count to ten? < 1266605630 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before I forgot, I remembered quite many words, I would say. :p < 1266605640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, err, before university I meant < 1266605643 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even after he forgot, he clearly knew quite a bit < 1266605645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before you had to remember again < 1266605657 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I am reasonably certain I could have counted to ten. < 1266605660 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is to say, he didn't forget as much as it sounded like < 1266605710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1266605714 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I did "long Swedish" (for non-locals: started on third grade, so studied a total of 10 years during compulsory education and high school) before, that might also have had an effect. < 1266605739 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: On the third (or how many'th this is) hand, Swedish (the long one) was my worst subject in the matriculation examination thing. < 1266605741 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is the type of person that generally gets the higher of the two possible. < 1266605757 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worst, as in, the only one which you didn't get max points on? :-P < 1266605780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I actually only got an M out of it. < 1266605786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Z < 1266605791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want to rewrite terms fff < 1266605801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I don't think I got maximum points from anything else than maths.) < 1266605815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266605832 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An M from the long might be equivalent to max from the short < 1266605849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's possible, I guess. I don't really know the relative difficulties. < 1266605869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least E, I guess. < 1266605906 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it weren't then it wouldn't be harder than the short, which wouldn't make much sense. :-P < 1266605983 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For non-locals that don't have the same scale; the matriculation examination grade scale here goes I, A, B, C, M, E, L from worst (well, failed) to best; they come from Latin: improbatur, approbatur, lubenter approbatur, cum laude approbatur, magna cum laude approbatur, eximia cum laude approbatur and laudatur. < 1266606006 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B and E are rather new grades, though; it used to be just I-A-C-M-L. < 1266606021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Rather"? Aren't they a few decades old at least? < 1266606032 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E was added in 1996. < 1266606037 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn < 1266606054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B and M in 1970, it seems, so "originally" it was just I-A-C-L. < 1266606091 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only did Swedish anyway, and in 2005 < 1266606134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did six topics, in 2002 (I think), so E wasn't exactly "new" at that point either, but still. < 1266606272 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't those defined as percentile intervals, by the way? < 1266606315 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Or at least there are official percentile numbers they're aiming at, nation-wide. I'm not sure if they strictly follow it. < 1266606354 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :numerical grades are too hard < 1266606361 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much easier to remember IABCMEL < 1266606368 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there's also four subclasses of I, denoted "i+", "i", "i-" and "i=". You get "compensation points" from other non-i grades, and if you get enough of them (what "enough" is depends on which one of those four i's it is) you may get a non-fail "i". < 1266606408 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This I either didn't know, or had forgotten.) < 1266606488 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: It's also nice when some form somewhere asks for an average of these letter grades. There's no completely official way of computing the average; there used to be one, but it was deprecated. < 1266606511 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deprecated? Why? < 1266606523 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266606558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really don't know. It was that "yleisarvosana" thing, and it's no longer included in the papers, so it at least feels a bit deprecatedy. < 1266606561 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it's almost as bad in north america < 1266606568 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1266606574 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something called the GPA, which is a number on the scale from A to B < 1266606587 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think A is normally zero < 1266606591 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but B varies from one place to another < 1266606593 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahoy < 1266606598 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yoha < 1266606615 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: They added the E grade and removed that at the same time; so the old rules for computing the average don't really work any more, since the E grade is not included in them. < 1266606622 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when a university asks you for your GPA, they expect you to give it to them in their scale < 1266606626 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1266606643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but of course they don't tell you what their scale is < 1266606657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indexed_grammar ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_grammar ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_index_grammar ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literal_movement_grammar ; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Range_concatenation_grammars < 1266606678 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think I used just the median of my grades when I needed one for the graduate school application. Not that they really cared about that, but the form had a field for it. < 1266606858 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always wondered what the point of such is < 1266606884 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi alise < 1266606897 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they can verify it, why ask you, and if they can't, they can't use the info for anything important < 1266606972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They certainly didn't ask for the corresponding certificate papers, so I don't think they could verify it. < 1266606993 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266607009 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266608130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, to further mess up things I have my degrees in two different systems < 1266608180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for those I read as a CS student, and one for a few other courses I took on the side. < 1266608201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope I never have to calculate average for that. What is average of 5 and VG? < 1266608549 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, we have some different systems in the university course grading too (for example, the aforementioned compulsory Swedish is graded either "acceptable" or "good"), but I think all not-in-the-standard-1-to-5-scale grades are ignored when computing the average. < 1266608596 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've ignored them, at least < 1266608656 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-201-100.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266608681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I think they are also officially ignored by the thing that computes the final diploma averages. Certainly they're ignored in the record transcript printout. < 1266608705 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an average in the record transcript? I haven't noticed. < 1266608745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Deewiant: I think they are also officially ignored by the thing that computes the final diploma averages. Certainly they're ignored in the record transcript printout. <-- why? because they couldn't figure it out either? < 1266608761 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because there is no sensible mapping < 1266608784 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you map pass/fail to a numeric grade? < 1266608792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you could look at what is "not passed" "passed" passed with excellence" in the various systems < 1266608800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in our numerical system fail is 1 or 2 < 1266608805 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typically there's only one, pass < 1266608806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I wouldn't mind a 0/5 mapping. :) < 1266608814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fail isn't included in the transcript < 1266608823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, we have two pass in the letter system. Or 3. Think it is only 2 at university < 1266608825 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266608832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one fail < 1266608844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right < 1266608865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swedish is the only one on my transcript that's not 0-5 or pass/fail; it has that fail/acceptable/good tri-valued thing. < 1266608868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 0/4 seems more reasonable if same as here < 1266608869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mapping it to 5 is sensible in some ways but it has the unfortunate effect of raising everybody's averages :-P < 1266608877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1266608926 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, I'd know a lot of people who'd hate a 0/4 mapping; those people for whom averages are Serious Business, and a 0/4 mapping would drag them down a lot, since there's quite a number of compulsory pass/fail courses. < 1266608955 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's why you can't really map it to anything other than 5. < 1266609099 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it really is most prudent to just ignore them in averages :-P < 1266609596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1266609603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oy < 1266609604 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266609677 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, should I stop attempting to remind you? I vaguely recall you saying that it wasn't the plan anymore < 1266609710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are waiting on a response from the advisor-in-matters-regarding-lawsomes first. < 1266609718 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1266609899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was pretty annoyed at out swedish course being fail/2/4 < 1266609959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : So it really is most prudent to just ignore them in averages :-P <-- err. Why not change them to use the same system as the other ones? < 1266609966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, one single system would make more sense < 1266609998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, why were you annoyed at that? < 1266610011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also 2 is a fail degree here < 1266610042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what fizzie said < 1266610049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drags my average down < 1266610129 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, that's a separate issue < 1266610136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While we have them, it's best to ignore them < 1266610381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, has no one suggested that you all change to one system? < 1266610408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, with enough other courses that you get 5 in your average would approach 5 < 1266610418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you then round to 4 decimals you could get 5 < 1266610445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if it's been suggested < 1266610454 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's 5 now, if you round to one decimal < 1266610463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, see :) < 1266610468 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 4 would require about a thousand courses < 1266610483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well sure. rounding to 1 decimal is probably saner anyway < 1266610505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write it as 5.0 then (or 5,0 if you use decimal comma like in Sweden) < 1266610670 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we use it, i don't < 1266610795 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...omg i'm back on irc < 1266610809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't even notice < 1266610819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266610820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266610835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone think of a better computational model of the reals than floating point? < 1266610852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. fast, but without such inanity as breaking such fundamental mathematical laws as equality and... just about everything else < 1266610855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's not reals i guess < 1266610862 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed point < 1266610879 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :floats are an inexact model of the rationals < 1266610882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just rationals, except with a less stupid representation than 314159/100000 < 1266610882 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the reals < 1266610890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm maybe off by one with the zeros there < 1266610891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah i know < 1266610900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable reals are closer < 1266610905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar i mean rationals really < 1266610910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: fixed point breaks mathematical laws doesn't it < 1266610913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overflow < 1266610925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you can overflow to (Z,Z) < 1266610927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want arbitrary precision? < 1266610986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... no < 1266610988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just want a pony :) < 1266611018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really I just want something that programmers everywhere could replace every occurrence of "float" in their code with, and think "gee, my program runs a bit slower but suddenly I don't feel like cthulhu is resident in all my values any more" < 1266611018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well you can't have one < 1266611082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if I have a fancy dependently-typed functional language I want to require rings to come with a proof of of a*(b+c) = (a*b)+(a*c) < 1266611095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and floating point doesn't let me do that, because it is a bad person and hates mathematics. < 1266611108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least, I think NaN fucks with that example; if not, substitute one it does fuck with) < 1266611124 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can just define = to be rougly equal?? < 1266611155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean people write programs that use floats which compute with error bounds so ... it's not like it returns a random answer < 1266611167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, = should mean /equal/ < 1266611168 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it isn't an equivalence relation and cthulhu is totally present again < 1266611187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can quotient by an equivalence relation < 1266611198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, "Rational" satisfies the "Cthulhu has left the building" constraint but not the "gee my program isn't a /billion/ times slower" constraint < 1266611199 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the identity type works < 1266611208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You have to define "programmers everywhere", some programs do rely on float behaviour (and others on their HW-speed) < 1266611219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I don't care, it's still Really Surprising Behaviour when the rulez are broken < 1266611224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it restricts how I can optimise, for one < 1266611227 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266611237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, those programs aren't written in my glorious languages :P < 1266611262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you only meant yourself, just use fractions of arbitrary precision ints < 1266611281 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear Google Calendar: Unless you're planning on making Google Maps work with SLUrl for virtual locations, please don't bother making a map link. < 1266611294 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although it's really a trivial issue I guess *shrug*) < 1266611297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: The reason I don't want that is that it's... well... not fast. < 1266611307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not on today's CPUs, at least. < 1266611322 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have programs that rely on the speed of that enough for the difference to be noticeable? < 1266611425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If you want something non-Lovecraftian, it'll be slow. < 1266611432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly I'm just /assuming/ that rationals are pretty slow, because people don't use them. < 1266611439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, but not /glacial/. < 1266611484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. What's the issue with: < 1266611491 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree /STRONGLY/! < 1266611496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If overflow is a problem then it'll be pretty glacial I'm afraid :-P < 1266611509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rat (an integer) < 1266611514 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cheater4 < 1266611514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := Fixed thatint < 1266611519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdf < 1266611520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1266611531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fixed-point with compile-time dynamic size (and run-time too for bigfloats) < 1266611535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible to write correct programs that are efficient! < 1266611544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the smallest integer representation that can store all the values of that size < 1266611547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get my point < 1266611557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except whence "that size" < 1266611559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's lesser than reals, e.g. you don't get 1/3 < 1266611565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: compile-time or run-time < 1266611570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if run-time, increased on overflow < 1266611574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like int->bigint conversion < 1266611576 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And often enough it'll be run-time and hence glacial < 1266611583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not /glacial/... < 1266611596 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Glacial enough < 1266611603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is equivalent to what I said modulo implementation details :-P < 1266611690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not as glacial as (Z,Z) < 1266611693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the point < 1266611750 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell are you talking about < 1266611751 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to say; maybe not < 1266611760 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen, people do something called NUMERICS < 1266611761 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266611767 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when they do that they find algorithms which < 1266611769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A) WORK < 1266611772 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(B) FAST < 1266611789 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what about numbers of the form m/2^n ? that's at least a ring < 1266611808 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and should be fairly fast since floating point is < 1266611820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(here i'm intending unbounded n) < 1266611827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but bounded m? < 1266611832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no that too < 1266611832 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know the computation class for [[Hyper Set Language]]? I think it is at least turing complete because you can implement the S and K combinators. But is more than turing complete? Or is something make it less? < 1266611876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: erm can that represent 3.14159? < 1266611887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly i'm not thinking very clearly about this, some sort of mental block prolly :P < 1266611909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: this a set language? if you can define the halting set, then you'd be super-TC is my intuition. < 1266611939 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That is what I am asking, too. Do you think there is a way? If you read it, try to figure out if you can figure out anything from it, if you want to < 1266611944 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hyper_Set_Language < 1266611947 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's just storing an arbitrary number of bits < 1266611953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ofc < 1266611957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you want all field equations (and dividing by 10^n generalizes to dividing by any natural number), then you pretty much force the rationals to be an exact subset < 1266611984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, superset surely < 1266611997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming 3.14159 = 314159/100000 there) < 1266612010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, subset. you get at _least_ all rationals < 1266612026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266612050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, the question is "what is an efficient representation for the rationals" < 1266612065 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rationals? < 1266612069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1266612071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(m,2^n) at least, intuitively /seems/ faster than (m,n) < 1266612071 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With natural numbers represented as sets, the less than operation is easy, A is less than B if A is an element of B. < 1266612107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait, I'm not seeing the values for m and n to get 3.14159, prolly doing something stupid < 1266612143 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.shoeboxblog.com/?p=15314 < 1266612205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> 314159 / (2 ** 16.61) < 1266612205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.140807200338285 < 1266612210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably m and n : Z, though < 1266612258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: :D < 1266612263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can store some of the correct first digits of pi, just like with base 10. < 1266612280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but not 3.14159 *exactly* < 1266612296 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just GIVING UP if you think you can't do correct and efficient programs < 1266612308 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it's difficult, but if you think it's impossible you are educated stupid < 1266612314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: of course not, 314159/100000 is in smallest terms < 1266612319 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and evil < 1266612324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait what the hell is that .16 about < 1266612324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or actually the whole thing < 1266612324 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can, you just need a lot of bits < 1266612325 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266612326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 < 1266612326 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah true < 1266612327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266612328 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah wtf am i thinking < 1266612328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: we shouldn't have to fuck about with representations for hours just to get something that runs before the universe is o'er, and that is correct < 1266612339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah :/ < 1266612342 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can represent reals as sets by making it a set of all the natural numbers that are the bit positions in the real that are set < 1266612344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude> 314159 / (2 ** 16.609640474436812) < 1266612344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.141589999999999 < 1266612347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :close enough :P < 1266612355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot get rid of the prime 5 factors in the denominator < 1266612359 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't do numerics either but it's a really important part of computing and without it nothing would work well < 1266612364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: we know < 1266612378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant meant if you want correctness /in general/ it's glacial < 1266612383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than inventing special representatiosn each time < 1266612384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, i'm being completely retarded atm < 1266612384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1266612385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does glacial mean? < 1266612415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow. < 1266612496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are you familiar with any of the usual constructions of real numbers as sets? < 1266612519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computable reals are nice apart from the whole lack of equality thing < 1266612521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's kinda bum < 1266612522 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess yours works as one of them < 1266612535 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, I am not familiar with that < 1266612577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait how is (m/2^n) more efficient than (m/n)? < 1266612578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arithmetic? < 1266612603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah it's mostly like binary then... < 1266612617 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m/2^n + u/2^v = (m(2^v)+(2^n)u)/2^(n+v) < 1266612626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two multiplications instead of 3 < 1266612639 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with n/m, you have to keep doing gcd < 1266612649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those multiplications are shifts < 1266612650 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh except for 2^v & 2^n has to be computed.. < 1266612666 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh oerjan you are good at this < 1266612672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so stuff like addition are really slow < 1266612723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266612734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that this representation doesn't seem to have many of the numbers humans like :( < 1266612747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least floats "usually" are pretty similar to decimals if you stick to obvious things < 1266612760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that's no real objection, just a human one < 1266612765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, wait, oerjan < 1266612768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't a subset of the rationals < 1266612777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't represent 314159/100000 < 1266612784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1266612798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are swapping sub and superset < 1266612804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err right < 1266612806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has to be a superset < 1266612807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>= < 1266612808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said < 1266612829 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said, if you want all field equalities < 1266612848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do :< < 1266612850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including division. m/2^n only supports addition, subtraction and multiplication exactly < 1266612853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess (Z/Z) is the best for me then < 1266612861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doth make me sad < 1266612884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266612890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266612897 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does it support division < 1266612898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/3 < 1266612904 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise but you don't care about nice looking numbers, all that matters is being within some tolerance of them < 1266612905 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lol < 1266612906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the bright side, you at least can have equality work exactly with those < 1266612907 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1266612909 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the output of the algorithm is too < 1266612918 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is not 'impossible to do efficiently' < 1266612919 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere in there i read it supports division < 1266612922 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266612933 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like you have to have lots of dynamic checks all over, you just have to do a lot of hard analysis < 1266612952 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nontrivial stuff, that's why you can't just make a field out of it < 1266612955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: of course, but a human will be sad if he punches in 1.33333 and gets something like 1.01725 back < 1266612967 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah that is why I use an exact calculator < 1266612976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with floats they're at least, you know, close enough < 1266612984 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a calculator is different than numerical algorithms < 1266612986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll just totally love rationals < 1266612991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes but they need specialised code anyway < 1266612991 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno I am scared to use floats < 1266613002 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't use them without a lot of hard work on paper < 1266613004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about the main thing you get when you think "oh I need sum division here" < 1266613027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't like floats < 1266613030 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you program satellites or something? < 1266613067 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are the usual constructions of real numbers as sets? < 1266613096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my OS/language is going to be so amazing :| < 1266613113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think once you go beyond the four arithmetical operations you quickly lose exact equality no matter what you do. for example, afaik it is unknown whether pi*e is rational, so you might hit a case where you cannot decide pi*e == p/q < 1266613115 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the normal one I know about is cauchy-convergent sequences of rational numbers.. so it's basically a list of fractions that tend toward some real number (each one being within a smaller tolerance of it) < 1266613136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well you cannot represent "pi" or "e" < 1266613141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only approximations to some tolerance < 1266613143 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: OK, I guess that's one < 1266613149 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: but there's also some different constructions like in constructive-math you can represent them as programs which print out the n'th digit in finite time < 1266613150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually this ties into my idea for implementation types < 1266613151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1266613153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you might in some representations < 1266613158 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unknown whether e*pi is rational? 8| < 1266613159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have an (opaque) value pi or e or 1/3 or whatever < 1266613163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah it is < 1266613164 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: of course adding them produces a new progam etc etc < 1266613166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266613172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and an opaque type Real < 1266613175 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, that too is one, like something < 1266613178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not known whether e+pi and i think e*pi is algebraic, but rational, that was new to me < 1266613184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and at compile-time, you plug in some acceptable representation for it < 1266613187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Float or Rational < 1266613194 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266613198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it uses the definitions of pi or e or 1/3 for that type < 1266613200 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e*pi might be easier for algebraic < 1266613200 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 (that's not really set theory though but I just thought that's a cool way) < 1266613200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: dedekind cuts are one. you then first construct the rationals and then a "cut" is a splitting of all rationals into two sets with the left set elements smaller than all the right set elements < 1266613211 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no < 1266613211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you write code that you can prove correct but cannot wrong (because e.g. it does = on computable reals) < 1266613217 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the boundary between them is always a real number < 1266613221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and substitute elsewhere whatever representation is acceptable < 1266613223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool methinks. < 1266613241 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no you can't just write a correct program on R and then use it with floats < 1266613245 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think in Hyper Set Language I could write a code that converts the represent as programs which print out the n'th digit into the one I specified at first, too < 1266613247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case it's definitely known e*pi is irrational, it just hasn't been proven < 1266613250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: of course it won't be correct on floats < 1266613255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why you specify an _acceptable_ type manually < 1266613259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're ok with floats < 1266613263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you want rationals < 1266613272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you want computable reals because you don't use = and don't care about speed < 1266613272 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and MissPiggy mentioned cauchy sequences which i was thinking of next < 1266613272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266613288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't /know/ something that isn't proven < 1266613292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can strongly suspect it, though < 1266613332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh maybe it's just algebraic that is unknown for them, i'm not sure < 1266613357 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, pi and e algebraic is a deep result, e and pi irrational is trivial < 1266613365 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266613370 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, that makes me realize, you can also represent all algebraic numbers exactly. even more complicated though i presume. < 1266613375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :transcendential i mean < 1266613384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: just do it symbolically? :P < 1266613397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how CASs do all this funky number stuff ofc < 1266613414 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I guess you cuold just list them as polynomials + an index (which root) ? < 1266613444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266613457 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that wouldn't really help because how do you compute the new index < 1266613499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not known whether e+pi or e/pi is irrational according to internet < 1266613533 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e = pi / 3 * 2 < 1266613553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1266613554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266613581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: using polynomials they are roots of, plus some interval boundaries to distinguish different roots of the same one, i think that would work < 1266613592 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey that would be weird.. if it was undecidible whether e+pi is trancendental < 1266613603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would that be weird < 1266613611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be beautiful < 1266613625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what are indexes? < 1266613628 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :personally i can't decide if it would be weird or not < 1266613632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for roots) < 1266613636 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan I meant the 3rd root, e.g. < 1266613644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: but do you agree it'd be beautiful? < 1266613644 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that seems like a bad way to distinguist < 1266613696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: does that mean e*pi _is_ known? < 1266613714 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://planetmath.org/encyclopedia/LindemannsTheorem.html < 1266613717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what logic systems need is an FFI to other logic systems < 1266613719 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a cool theorem by the way < 1266613723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266613751 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hehe we should get them to trust each other < 1266613768 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw an attempt at converting HOL proofs into Coq that was pretty heavy < 1266613826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm not sure there is any pretty way to distinguish them. different roots of primitive polynomials are algebraically indistinguishable, afaik (galois theory), so you need some order or the like < 1266613827 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also unsafePerformMathematica < 1266613832 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for boring calculations.. < 1266613869 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan I don't know galwah theory :( < 1266613875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : what logic systems need is an FFI to other logic systems <-- kripke models! < 1266613883 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though seemingly innocuous, a proof of Schanuel's conjecture would prove hundreds of open conjectures in transcendental number theory. < 1266613894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: of course we need some sort of trust-metric between them all < 1266613901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can import proofs from other systems that we can't prove in our system < 1266613907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only if they pass a certain Bullshit Factor < 1266613914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whose intention is to weed out the bullshit. < 1266613925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well the point here iirc is that there are field automorphisms of C that map one root onto any (?) other < 1266613957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one _given_ root, there may be restrictions on pairs and such) < 1266614027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls having fun using kripke models to prove things were not intuitionistic tautologies < 1266614137 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes to know more about that but I watched a lecture on kripke models a while ago and did not get it < 1266614186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let me try to recall an example < 1266614210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say the well-known intuitionistic non-tautology A or (not A) < 1266614305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you make two world's, one in which A is false, one in which A is true, with the former being less than the latter < 1266614323 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oka; < 1266614340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then in the former, not A is _also_ false, since there exists a larger world in which A is true < 1266614373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and A or (not A) is then also false in the former, since or combines in each world < 1266614394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo: A or (not A) is not a tautology < 1266614429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I didn't quite get that either. < 1266614443 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tautology in ??? < 1266614456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in intuitionistic propositional logic < 1266614460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or basically it sounds like a load of bullshit worthy of that recent xkcd about proving from invalid axioms ;P < 1266614469 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :::/ < 1266614480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*worlds not world's < 1266614492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er right < 1266614495 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oerjan it is not a tautology so you have proved it is now the world explodes?? < 1266614499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't undersatnd < 1266614509 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1266614514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1266614515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i have proved that it is _not_ a tautology < 1266614518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah xkcd to rebut valid mathematical techniques, sounds like a funny joke to me < 1266614518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : A or (not A) is ***not*** a tautology < 1266614519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's boring < 1266614525 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda important to read ALL the worlds, sorry about that! < 1266614532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read all the worlds < 1266614575 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, this is a metatheorem though? < 1266614589 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I mean you couldn't prove this internally, using a constructive logic could you? < 1266614590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because by some mumble mumble theorem, a proposition is an intuitionistic tautology if it is always true in every world of a kripke model satisfying the mumble mumble requirements < 1266614617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: yeah xkcd to rebut valid mathematical techniques, sounds like a funny joke to me <-- I wasn't trying to joke nor rebuting it < 1266614633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just commenting upon how insane it sounded to someone who isn't a specialist < 1266614636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well i guess not, but then you cannot do that with boolean logic either... < 1266614643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then what were you doing? Either you think it's bullshit or you think it isn't. < 1266614654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, see the line I said just after that < 1266614657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before replying < 1266614670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :";P" would imply you don't think it's bullshit and are attempting to make a joke; commenting upon how seemingly insane it is counts as a joke attempt, because it's meant to be taken non-seriously in a humorous way. < 1266614670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you have ~10 seconds of lag, in which case I pitty you < 1266614674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*pity < 1266614677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One t. < 1266614690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266614693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1%(1%n); < 1266614693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't notice that typo < 1266614693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1*n%1 < 1266614693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : <- Well, it's a start, Pure, but I think you can simplify that a wee bit. < 1266614697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*^ < 1266614699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not <- < 1266614702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you do it a lot :P < 1266614714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't think I use that word very often though < 1266614718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unlikely < 1266614721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enough. < 1266614803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, when is that type of logic that proves A or (not A) to not be a tautology actually useful? < 1266614819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0+x = x; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x+0 = x; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 0*x = 0; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1*x = x; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x*0 = 0; < 1266614820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x*1 = x; < 1266614822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 1%(1%n); < 1266614824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n%1 < 1266614826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I schooled you, son. < 1266614830 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise = zero < 1266614830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now yo a clever bitch of a rewriter. < 1266614832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: when you want to find out what are the intuitionistic tautologies? < 1266614843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i think AnMaster is assuming that (a or not a) is actually a tautology "IRL" < 1266614851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus his inquiry; just heuristics, though < 1266614856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, not correct < 1266614859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266614873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering what sort of other math stuff this is used for < 1266614879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and why do you want to do that? < 1266614890 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, metatheoretic investigation of foundational questions < 1266614890 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, i believe there are other forms of kripke models for some other logics (e.g. modal ones?) < 1266614901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what MissPiggy said < 1266614920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, hm okay < 1266614937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: this _did_ start out with alise's comment about logics needing FFIs for each other... < 1266614941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how do you pronounce "kripke" btw? < 1266614951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x%(y*x) == 1%y; < 1266614951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x*y==y*x < 1266614957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Pure, turns out that's true also. < 1266614967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think it's german. or wait was he american? < 1266614973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, FFI in this context being? All I can think of is foreign function interface, which makes no sense here. < 1266614995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what language is that? < 1266615000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Kripke < 1266615000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure < 1266615029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think that _was_ the intended meaning. how to call one logic from within another. < 1266615050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kripke models allow you to speak about intuitionistic truths in classical logic, say < 1266615061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, interesting language. Did you provide a few rules and it then did various simplifications on it basically? < 1266615062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (x+y==y+x) = true; < 1266615062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> (x*y==y*x) = true; < 1266615063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> x%(y*x) == 1%y; < 1266615063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1266615065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :schooled. < 1266615071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(kripke was american) < 1266615072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah; basically, you define tree -> tree rewritings. < 1266615076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er is < 1266615077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sounds like perfect to write a CAS in. < 1266615079 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise make it do partial fractions < 1266615080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you give it a tree and it rewrites it recursively. < 1266615086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: exactly; this kind of stuff is the base of CASs < 1266615087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bastard is still alive :D < 1266615090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no ;P < 1266615092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1266615104 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise please :(((( think of my homework!! < 1266615112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: fine what do you want it to aftually do < 1266615115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*actually < 1266615140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the complexity of this way of computing. < 1266615141 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise seriously partial fractions are cool I would be interested in seeing it in a rewrite language because it seems slightly less trivial than just simplification < 1266615153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You can't ask for the "complexity" of a paradigm, that's ridiculous < 1266615176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well true. I realised it was badly worded. But I can't think of another way to phrase it < 1266615177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see... < 1266615183 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise partial fractions is tne name for turning stuff like 1/((x+a)(x+b)) into P/(x+a) + Q/(x+b) < 1266615194 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to solve for P and Q, and do it for more general cases.. < 1266615194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The naive algorithm is slow (evaluating the innermost trees first, look for rewrite rules that match the tree; pick the most specific one (e.g. biggest or least free variables), replace with right hand side, repeat) < 1266615198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are better algorithms < 1266615201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, given that you rewrite it recursively it sounds like some stuff would be rather inefficient to implement in it < 1266615211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure isn't naive; it compiles to LLVM and all. < 1266615212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, right < 1266615218 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:32 < alise> AnMaster: You can't ask for the "complexity" of a paradigm, that's ridiculous < 1266615223 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not ridiculous :P < 1266615234 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266615241 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe paradigm isn't the right thing < 1266615269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What is the complexity of tree rewriting" doesn't make sense because it depends on the complexity of the computation < 1266615282 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but stuff like mutable vs non-mutable and complexity completeness results are quite deep theorems in programming < 1266615286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the complexity of the best known algorithm for it then? < 1266615298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: apparently now ghc will also compile to LLVM, i hear < 1266615306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Still a meaningless question < 1266615312 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i would know, never having downloaded it *ducks* < 1266615315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's replacing -fvia-c. < 1266615321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh? < 1266615328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes me believe that it is likely that you do not understand the difference between complexity and speed on today's CPUs. < 1266615348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if I had meant to ask about that I would have asked about that < 1266615356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant big O notation here < 1266615366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not milliseconds < 1266615373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then your question makes no sense. < 1266615376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the latter would vary a lot < 1266615380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what is the complexity of brainfuck? < 1266615388 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck < 1266615398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the complexity of a given way to implement bf < 1266615408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set the "given way" to "best known" < 1266615409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck is RE < 1266615410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266615414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That question makes no sense at all. < 1266615420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now someone implement brainfuck with tree rewriting < 1266615426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1266615428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah < 1266615431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What is the complexity of a naive implementation of Brainfuck? < 1266615434 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you do that (in a cool way) < 1266615440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think you can have algorithmic complexity of non-algorithms. ;) < 1266615442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, first define the naive implementation < 1266615449 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo:R#re < 1266615452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: define the different stuff as operators < 1266615456 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kripke is an observant jew < 1266615458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh right algorithms must terminate or how was it? < 1266615460 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :matisyahu is an observant jew < 1266615461 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, ^ < 1266615463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can generate bf programs with symbolicness < 1266615463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay on that thing it fails < 1266615466 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like matisyahu < 1266615470 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, kripke is cool < 1266615472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and reason about them < 1266615476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, pick one implementation < 1266615478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: any < 1266615482 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :matisyahu the singer ? < 1266615484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tell me how you would work out "its complexity" < 1266615488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: this question is /completely meaningless/ < 1266615503 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what about my answer? (RE) is that not correct? < 1266615512 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: suer < 1266615534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is that the complexity of the evaluation function, though? < 1266615541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, yes, technically < 1266615544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think it's what AnMaster means < 1266615546 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise that's a tricky one... < 1266615554 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's not what he means I know that :P < 1266615556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's trying to say "how much OVERHEAD does tree rewriting imply" < 1266615559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a silly answer < 1266615568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is nonsensical too, s/tree rewriting/a given implementation of tree rewriting/ < 1266615571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then rigorously define overhead < 1266615573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maybe i can answer < 1266615590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need a co-RE language < 1266615610 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably classes of algorithms in tree rewriting that have asymptotically lower efficiency than in a language with mutable reference < 1266615628 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by _result I can't remember the name of ;_;_ < 1266615640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a tree rewriting language with mutable references, of course < 1266615651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that lisp vs. pure lisp link from the other day? < 1266615663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, tree rewriting can be mutable in place? Huh? < 1266615667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, I misread that < 1266615691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that seems rather messy < 1266615694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not fitting in < 1266615695 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well I am probably wrong about that statement < 1266615696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sure < 1266615698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not < 1266615703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure has side-effects < 1266615703 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's graph rewriting then, isn't it < 1266615706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :causes no issues at all < 1266615718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well you consider references externalities usually but yeah < 1266615722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :side effects are annoying < 1266615726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: monads. < 1266615732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or other ways of modelling state < 1266615751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, passing the state along all the time? < 1266615760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't solve the issue with IO though < 1266615777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just model that as a data structure with continuations. < 1266615784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can sugar it from inside the language. < 1266615787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266615807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might work < 1266615885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nit < 1266615888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not might < 1266615891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does < 1266615899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about nit? < 1266615901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a solved problem < 1266616530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer modern is beautiful < 1266616574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern is so ancient < 1266616648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom < 1266616712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally "modern" means the mom in some norwegian dialects < 1266616760 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Swedish, though it's probably archaic < 1266616782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be a swedish loan, actually < 1266616790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it might not < 1266616944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means both modern and "the mother" in Swedish. And yeah somewhat archaic < 1266617016 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different pronunciation for the two meanings though < 1266617022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1266617027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very different < 1266617269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does English have that? < 1266617282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one spelling, different ways to pronounce, different meanings < 1266617303 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homograph < 1266617319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1266617367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_context-free_grammar < 1266617375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266617401 0 :jcp1!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266617411 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: oklopol: does that mean e*pi _is_ known?" <<< if e*pi was known, then e/pi would also be < 1266617420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually isn't it instead http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heteronym_%28linguistics%29 ? < 1266617424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266617465 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266617465 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266617468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, known as what? < 1266617474 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not if it was known _not_ to be rational < 1266617484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "is trancedental" < 1266617492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although if it were algebraic, the other one couldn't be < 1266617494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, that is the question) < 1266617532 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ceci n'est pas une pipe < 1266617552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (ir)rational, actually < 1266617565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, well, both < 1266617586 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right you are, that's more specific < 1266617590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, any transcendental (sp?) number would be irrational right? < 1266617607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but the point it isn't known to be either < 1266617616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is it < 1266617655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but I can tell you something: it isn't an integer ;P < 1266617665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1266617671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah lame < 1266617692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally e^pi is algebraic < 1266617707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1266617708 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebraic! < 1266617724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't that used to prove that pi is transcendental or something? < 1266617724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is misremembering < 1266617727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but algebraic? < 1266617734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't sound quite correct < 1266617741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't i involved too? < 1266617840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, something that confused me is the computable/non-computable number thingy < 1266617844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that actually mean < 1266617849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are there any examples < 1266617909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone was trying too hard to be pretentious when writing this < 1266617909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Attic Greek drama, a character in the play, as very often a deity, stood forward or appeared from a machine before the action of the play began, and made from the empty stage such statements necessary for the audience to hear so that they might appreciate the ensuing drama. It was the early Greek custom to dilate in great detail on everything that had led up to the play, the latter being itself, as a rule merely the catastrophe which had inevitably to en < 1266617910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sue on the facts related in the prologue. The importance, therefore, of the prologue in Greek drama was very great; it sometimes almost took the place of a romance, to which, or to an episode in which, the play itself succeeded. < 1266617939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: chaitlin's constant is a real < 1266617941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not computable < 1266617949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, a given instance of it) < 1266617950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*chaitin's < 1266617975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "the latter being itself" quite throw me off first time I read that sentence... < 1266617976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, RR contains unknowable elements. < 1266617986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I still haven't managed to read that paragraph! < 1266617995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it was fine up until that point < 1266618002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit pretentious yes < 1266618004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but readable < 1266618009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number < 1266618010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that it just makes no sense < 1266618011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a real number x is computable if there is a computable function f:N -> Q such that |f(n) - x| < 1/n < 1266618029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so i think. there are probably many equivalent definitions < 1266618030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ω is indeed one of the examples given < 1266618046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: now someone implement brainfuck with tree rewriting" <<< i think i did that too with one of my tree rewriters, it's not like it's hard, just carry around a tape < 1266618069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, some that is familiar from what I read elsewhere, it helps < 1266618090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: chaitlin's constant is a real <-- oh right < 1266618094 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol what about doing it without carrying tape? < 1266618195 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you push say > 3+ > 4+ > 6+ > through [1- > 7+ <] to get a program with one less loop? < 1266618215 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what modern is both modern and ancient in swedish < 1266618225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*archai < 1266618225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c < 1266618236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what? < 1266618259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I didn't understand that < 1266618260 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oerjan: oklopol: not if it was known _not_ to be rational" <<< that's why err < 1266618317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: esotope does thinsg like that < 1266618371 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise cool! < 1266618380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*things < 1266618388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/ < 1266618396 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can it evaluate a brainfuck program without making a tape? < 1266618400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also compiles hello-world-with-loops to a puts call :) < 1266618410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1266618411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/esotope-bfc/wiki/Optimization < 1266618414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not just hardcoding < 1266618418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really can do that kind of reasoning < 1266618509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i don't get your "push say" thing < 1266618512 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha that compiler is such a hardcore optimizer that you have to use a specially fast tool to run it < 1266618524 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I just mean like partial evaluation or something, but all the way < 1266618565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, you don't want to evaluate all non-input-dependent code < 1266618570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it might not terminate < 1266618581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you _want_ to do is evaluate all code that you can automatically prove to terminate < 1266618598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even all code that you can automatically prove to terminate and also determine that its "complexity" is below a certain bound < 1266618608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that compilation doesn't take fifty-billion years just because execution does < 1266618611 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you can just evaluate the program, then turn the tape into a >+ program that generates it -- but I was hoping it could be done without using a tape as intermediate < 1266618630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it also compiles hello-world-with-loops to a puts call :) <-- that is quite trivial < 1266618638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I can describe the algorithm to do that < 1266618649 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster did you read the documentation ??????????? < 1266618654 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster that is not trivial < 1266618659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I coded something very similar myself < 1266618662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I know how to do it < 1266618671 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster cool don't you have the code? < 1266618686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, mine is rather buggy, but it is coded in erlang < 1266618691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: he had to ask the author of esotope how the extended euclidian algorithm worked :) < 1266618700 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :highly parallel bugs < 1266618705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was basically a copy with a more ad-hoc structure, AnMaster says it did better on some programs but those were pathological < 1266618711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266618713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite < 1266618721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes for that algorithm, I was not as smart back then < 1266618721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why am I not surprised you said that :) < 1266618733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, figure out constants based on that the tape is at the program start all zero, then ++ means that "set 2" you can treat [-] and [+] as set 0 and do the same < 1266618738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait you are now? why didn't somebody inform me :( < 1266618769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you convert >> and << to offsets and only actually move the pointer just before an unbalanced loop (where you can't figure out the offset easily) < 1266618778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: they had a singularity in sweden, but they're keeping it under wraps < 1266618783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, now those constants can also be propagated to output < 1266618787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get constant output < 1266618792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now merge those outputs < 1266618797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, see? trivial < 1266618809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you need to unroll constant iteration loops of course < 1266618820 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah neat < 1266618821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each loop can be represented as a polynomial < 1266618825 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I will just implement this then < 1266618828 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266618837 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what how do you represent them as polynomials? < 1266618838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, well, each non-IO balanced loop that is < 1266618870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the compiler optimize random access? < 1266618873 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only thing that matters < 1266618886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, based on the loop counter, if you have [>++<-] you can figure out that the current position will be zero after but the next will be twice the current value < 1266618890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the current cell < 1266618891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266618897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the next cell was zero before < 1266618903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you add it instead of set it < 1266618907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[><++>] < 1266618918 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean sure it's cool to compile constants into constants, but you could just do that by running the program < 1266618920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, trivial, early merging would take care of >< < 1266618924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as pointed out infinite times < 1266618926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get an unbalanced loop < 1266618932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not without risking halting < 1266618934 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: BUT WOULD IT TAKE CARE OF THE FISH < 1266618940 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmm < 1266618941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, if you solve that, extremely long execution times < 1266618942 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: stfu < 1266618944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, -_- < 1266618948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalized_context-free_grammar < 1266618949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm *risking non-halting < 1266618949 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run for a microsecond < 1266618950 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized this is exactly the same as having a type... < 1266618955 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tape* < 1266618959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: nondeterministic, and less effective than this < 1266618963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, check out all of the pages i recently made. grammars :D < 1266618971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because as you evaluate the program you build up a data like >+++>+++++>+>+>+>>+++>>+++ < 1266618975 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who gives a shit, point is it's not an important optimization < 1266618977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just a data structure that represents a tape! < 1266618977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, of course if you can figure out the value before at that tape position then it is trivial < 1266619006 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, nice I just saved a big list of pages you made to read < 1266619007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you basically sort it. I used gnome sorting. which means swap if possible then take one step back, step forward if you can't swap < 1266619030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I deliberately used a joke sort algorithm" < 1266619032 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, it is a stable sort (important) and it is easy to add quite complex restrictions to how you are allowed to swap < 1266619058 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnome is a joke? < 1266619067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it is quite fast in practise for this, plus easy to implement with the various restrictions. And it isn't a joke < 1266619073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not one of the very fastest ones < 1266619074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is, actually < 1266619105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, source for that < 1266619119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I have never heard of that before < 1266619127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.vu.nl/~dick/gnomesort.html < 1266619129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly tongue-in-cheek < 1266619157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I only learned the name after I implemented it < 1266619169 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tongue in your mom's cheek < 1266619211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw wikipedia says: < 1266619213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is conceptually simple, requiring no nested loops. The running time is O(n²), but tends towards O(n) if the list is initially almost sorted.[1] In practice the algorithm can run as fast as Insertion sort." < 1266619248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for most bf programs you can't reorder the whole thing due to unbalanced loops < 1266619264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor can you move stuff freely across a balanced loop < 1266619280 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are fast stable sorts < 1266619281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until you figure out if they depend on each other < 1266619302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, true, but can you do such complex conditions easily? Also it gave adequate performance for this case < 1266619340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, anyway I gave up on the project when I got stuck on graph based optimisation < 1266619350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know enough about that sort of thing to make it actually work < 1266619356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :know somewhat more nowdays < 1266619359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want project fortress, agda and pure to have sex < 1266619364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and produce a beautiful, beautiful language baby < 1266619370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not really interested in taking it up again < 1266619384 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably you could just have intelligence in your swap and < functions. < 1266619406 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should do it!! < 1266619410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it all depends on what is between them < 1266619427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "project fortress"? never heard about that one before < 1266619439 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hehe yeah good plan < 1266619441 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: dog. spare dog legs. nails. < 1266619445 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hammer. < 1266619450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/ < 1266619452 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we should bring then on a double date? < 1266619456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guy steele's baby < 1266619459 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good way to break the ice < 1266619465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, btw mine dropped those calls to set cells in the final version. One pass was to look from the end of the program and delete dead stores < 1266619474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicit parallelism, yar. two-dimensional mathematical syntax with beautiful latex rendering, yar < 1266619479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if tape was never used it's variable was never declared < 1266619481 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep -> < 1266619481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool typing stuff, yar < 1266619488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally sweet, yar < 1266619495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about go? < 1266619501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about go? < 1266619502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't you love it too < 1266619507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't it be in that mix too < 1266619513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want a systems programming language < 1266619520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i myself have transcended such petty desirse < 1266619521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh and smalltalk and haskell < 1266619522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*desires < 1266619529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda includes the desire for haskell by being superior to it < 1266619536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hastalk < 1266619539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though not suitable for practical programming, that is irrelevant when language-mating) < 1266619540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine it < 1266619547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smalltalk is a nice OOP language, but you don't need it if you have a nice functional paradigm < 1266619554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's superior < 1266619561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so mix them up and produce a bastard language < 1266619563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adding columns is more important than adding rows in the expression problem, so FP wins < 1266619572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, I'd rather mix fortress, agda and pure :P < 1266619579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not haskell as well? < 1266619607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because agda subsumes the haskell desire, by being superior to it < 1266619619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not practical for real-world, boring programming, this is irrelevant when language-fucking. < 1266619620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266619710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266619907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fortress' syntax is so sexy though. < 1266619913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/attachment/wiki/MathSyntaxInFortress/fortify-example.png < 1266619927 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol I did my work now ^..^ < 1266619941 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I have been spending fucking ages trying to get a repl with TeX display for my CAS :( < 1266619952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: try texmacs? < 1266619963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's designed for things like that < 1266620011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why the syntax for fractions is what it is < 1266620013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to a division operator < 1266620023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess because you can view p/q as a constructor for rationals < 1266620085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: the really cool stuff happens when you type ascii code and get beautiful output on the go, though < 1266620318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does fortress use monads? < 1266620329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1266620333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it could if you made it < 1266620334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at the language it does seem quite cool < 1266620341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and somewhat easier to learn than haskell < 1266620355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mix of imperative and functional in part even < 1266620356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easier to learn relative to what < 1266620361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not functional it's just mathematical < 1266620370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that explains part of it < 1266620382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/833520.txt?key=ed3ghdi8fhelh3aot8jsw ;; my dream-land perfect editor for a rich-notation language < 1266620390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :format is input\ndisplay as ascii < 1266620396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| is cursor < 1266620412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, too hard to follow < 1266620417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only because it's ascii < 1266620424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, exactly < 1266620425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRL it'd be totally smooth < 1266620425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make some concept videos < 1266620427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1266620431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i prolly will < 1266620440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/wiki/ViscoElastic more fortress syntax porn < 1266620453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266620534 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266620617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/wiki/FortressCommentSyntax Fortress has the most advanced commenting system of any language, ever. You can embed rendered Fortress code, tables... and images. < 1266620634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think it's about bloody time we had expressive comments. < 1266620651 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Fortress < 1266620662 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm never going to use FORTRAN again! < 1266620669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"again" < 1266620673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266620679 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win 16 < 1266620759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is it for rendering to html or similar? < 1266620766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I usually read comments in the source < 1266620786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortress programs are considered as publications, pretty much. Ideally, you editor would show your code in the rendered form directly. < 1266620799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the wiki-ish markup is perfectly readable in source code. Put it in a paper or publish it on the internet and it'll shine. < 1266620856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the {{{ }}} is somewhat annoying < 1266620858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too many < 1266620876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's a rare construction. < 1266620923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in the page on it's markup though < 1266621110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1266621192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey i'm making a js demonstration of it too < 1266621193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266621922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: are you interested, at least? :P < 1266621926 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what? < 1266621936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a js demonstration of how I think editing should be done < 1266621953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow wait what do you mean < 1266621961 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that not something that will take a very long time?? < 1266621974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean it just shows you the entering of one single expression :P < 1266621992 0 :SimonRC_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266622060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ping < 1266622330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ok, go to http://pastie.org/833571.txt?key=seg549im36wsbitxw8dug, copy the whole contents, and paste it into your address bar and go there < 1266622357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll play a 13.5 second demonstration of first, inputting the expression a[2^n] < 1266622362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then navigating back through it < 1266622370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :keyboard input on top, editor display on bottom < 1266622392 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise ahh nice! < 1266622400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266622448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is, you know how in texmacs you're using the cursor keys all the time just to step in and out of things? < 1266622463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks! < 1266622471 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agreed! < 1266622472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i try and display all the relevant information on-screen at all times < 1266622483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you input a symbol you input a matching symbol to complete it < 1266622500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, if it weren't for the ) to terminate the ^, and you could get around that by e.g. making it terminate when x^y in ascii source would, < 1266622508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd write the ascii source and see the fancy source, directly < 1266622580 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266622624 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266622631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: indeed the ascii representation need not even be stored < 1266622645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the case of my OS, you could live a long and productive life without ever causing any code to be represented as ascii text in memory in any way < 1266622680 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh like having it a tree < 1266622680 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266622733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :process keyboard input to direct the editor, store internally as ast < 1266622736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266622741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a superset of the regular ast < 1266622745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it allows incomplete expressions < 1266622755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, allows a marker in an expression that denotes that it is not complete < 1266622765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah, the data: URI. < 1266622782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: couldn't find an htmlpaste.com :) < 1266622789 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266622858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i think i'm going to diverge from regular mathematical notation a lot anyway < 1266622866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :division symbol instead of fraction notation < 1266622883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqrt() instead of the sqrt symbol < 1266622894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically reducing the number of unique notations, they're mostly pointless < 1266622896 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hehe well you can fix all the HORRID crap they have in mathematical notation < 1266622902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely :P < 1266622907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|x|? barf < 1266622915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with abs(x), no I mean seriously, what is wrong with abs(x) < 1266622940 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|| is a norm < 1266622954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shaddup < 1266622958 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there're different norms but their notations are similar so you can tell they're all norms < 1266622966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I am being a bit silly, because I'm retaining 2^n as superscript < 1266622976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps I should use \uparrow, as does knuth < 1266623076 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal mathematical notation???? BARF < 1266623083 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually is || ambiguous like so much else < 1266623092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's why i'm totally fixin' it < 1266623102 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266623108 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I like superscripts and subscripts < 1266623121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's nice to be able to adorn symbols with notes < 1266623123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but why? why are + and * symbols but the next operator a superscript? < 1266623134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well + and * are associative < 1266623135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't mind super- and subscripts, but why use them for exponentiation? < 1266623146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, true < 1266623147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so being infix operators expresses that, notationally < 1266623148 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266623149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's still an operator < 1266623163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we have plenty of infix ops that aren't associative in programming... like -> < 1266623165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the reason for exponents is because like < 1266623176 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^n * a^m = a^(n + m) < 1266623181 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's fix math because it's broken < 1266623184 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a kind of homomorphism between * and + < 1266623189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :homoerotic morphism < 1266623196 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think the superscript is a nice way to do it < 1266623202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're right < 1266623212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means that you can't really have complex expressions on the RHS of ^, though < 1266623213 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know... someone who thinks harder about syntax coulb probably give a really good explanation < 1266623216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can with + and * etc < 1266623221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that kind of sucks in a way < 1266623330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^(1/2 + 7/n - 44) for instance < 1266623334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would just look ugly < 1266623346 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well it does come up in real situations so deal with it < 1266623359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why deal with it when i can make the notation better? < 1266623362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266623409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess ^ is better for short things, though < 1266623416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^n is less cluttered than 2uparrow n < 1266623439 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, late pong < 1266623453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: just wanted to host something nm now :P < 1266623555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my language will be so sweet < 1266623623 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266623625 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266623638 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's exp() for when the expression is complicated < 1266623685 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266623710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i do not believe in exp() < 1266623757 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in what sense? < 1266623776 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't believe exponentiation is well-defined, if you're using that syntax? < 1266623787 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if so, then i'm totally with ya < 1266623802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe in that syntax! < 1266623805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266623809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's just stupid < 1266623814 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i'm asleep now < 1266623815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266624063 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266624143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nice if functions were invertable < 1266624149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*invertible < 1266624199 0 :kilimanjaro!~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266624237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kilimanjaro < 1266624240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't seen you before < 1266624264 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because I never leave my mother's basement < 1266624270 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-173-73-27-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266624271 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro pm < 1266624271 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people haven't seen me for that reason < 1266624276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's a good entrance < 1266624282 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey is my -q off yet < 1266624282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what are you pming someone entirely new for < 1266624284 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet < 1266624286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait Libster joining shortly after- oh dear < 1266624289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ping. < 1266624290 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello alise < 1266624300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I don't see the other guys because I have them on ignore < 1266624314 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we probably share similar feelings towards Libster < 1266624315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libster just joined and is off +q so uh yeah < 1266624316 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I want him to unban me from #math < 1266624319 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did we leave off < 1266624330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: you might want to leave until he stops the trollaxing :P < 1266624331 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who likes Erlang < 1266624339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erlang is... alright < 1266624342 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who likes design patterns? < 1266624352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it's not /bad/ or anything, competent functional language < 1266624357 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a project by a guy to implement something like it in gambit scheme < 1266624362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know of that < 1266624366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :through chris double < 1266624366 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster: What, you mean lambda? < 1266624370 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because erlang is a wonderful idea bolted onto a crappy sequential language < 1266624373 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lambda's pretty nice. < 1266624384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: don't encourage him < 1266624386 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the guy who did it used to hang out pretty regularly in #scheme < 1266624387 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yome < 1266624394 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heh. < 1266624397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not such a fan of erlang's concurrency mechanism but eh < 1266624401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a purely functional kind of weenie < 1266624406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't have beautiful denotational semantics it sucks < 1266624407 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like CML? < 1266624409 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that the only reason people use erlang < 1266624413 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for its concurrency mechanism < 1266624430 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought CML was really neat but I never actually wanted to program in SML < 1266624435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cml is, sure i guess < 1266624437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still a bit meh < 1266624439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMPURE! < 1266624444 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pl what do you have in mind < 1266624453 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok* < 1266624467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait I have to have a coherent idea? < 1266624472 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I dunno < 1266624474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, fortress has implicit concurrency and that actually seems to work, that's cool < 1266624475 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just curious < 1266624482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell's `par` stuff is nice < 1266624489 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not talking about concurrency at that level < 1266624495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to < 1266624508 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean at the design level, where the concurrency is actually part of the way you structure the program < 1266624514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :par involves that < 1266624521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fortress does too to an extent < 1266624522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mostly par < 1266624523 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like erlang forces you to look at things in terms of processes & messages < 1266624525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :par is definitely part of the structure < 1266624538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: but you don't need to structure things specially if you have pure functions < 1266624542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no side effects to handle the ordering of < 1266624553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parallelism becomes purely a computational detail < 1266624605 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the year 2000 maybe < 1266624608 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when we are living on the moon < 1266624620 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol! < 1266624621 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for now real systems with real concurrency & distribution involve people being explicit about that < 1266624625 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro hello? < 1266624632 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone get him to talk to me at least < 1266624658 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy is clamoring for you to cyber with her < 1266624672 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait is she talking? < 1266624680 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266624691 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : kilimanjaro hello? < 1266624691 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : can someone get him to talk to me at least < 1266624728 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi MissPiggy < 1266624742 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi kilimanjaro :) < 1266624744 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets PM? < 1266624753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not sure what MissPiggy is attempting to achieve < 1266624757 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go for it < 1266624764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: you should look at fortress < 1266624769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does handle quite a bit of parallelism implicitly < 1266624774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not denying that we need to specify it < 1266624782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we don't need to structure every single module around it in a functional paradigm < 1266624796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also if you're interested in here-and-now practical solutions what are you doing in this channel? < 1266624815 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is trolling you < 1266624820 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he's so good at it you can't even tell < 1266624822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says the troll < 1266624995 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well esoteric doesn't have to mean impractical < 1266625003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure but still. < 1266625007 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does to these people < 1266625039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I honestly do wonder if Libster doesn't have anything more intellectually satisfying to do. < 1266625069 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope this is pretty much as satisfying as anything to me < 1266625114 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you could ignore him < 1266625116 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster: you're just not very good at trolling < 1266625123 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know < 1266625126 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why i'm practicing < 1266625132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: doesn't stop him talking < 1266625133 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody is born a good troll, it takes hard work < 1266625152 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :point < 1266625155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd ask lament to ban him but if there ever was a fruitless cause of action more likely to result in your own banning that is it < 1266625174 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266625183 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266625183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I used big words. < 1266625191 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266625202 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noen of your words exceeded two syllables < 1266625205 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very impressive < 1266625220 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libsterification < 1266625235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's... not even annoying. < 1266625241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just boring. < 1266625242 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i disagree < 1266625246 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266625250 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think he's pretty annoying < 1266625258 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1266625260 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways I was hoping to talk about esoteric languages < 1266625265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in the way of a really irritating troll < 1266625272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's just like a flea occasionally flying in your vision < 1266625275 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does prolog count as esoteric < 1266625280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1266625282 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these days maybe it should < 1266625314 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro prolog hardly counts as esoteric :/ < 1266625349 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know how to program in prolog < 1266625350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore MissPiggy she's wrong :) < 1266625361 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was going to implement a unification algorithm once < 1266625380 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be honest i was no really trolling < 1266625381 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact there's a really good paper on how to implement prolog efficiently < 1266625386 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, have you even written a prolog compiler in prolog? < 1266625392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no. < 1266625397 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so shut up :P < 1266625397 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you see by typing stupid shit in this channel i am actually coding in my own esoteric language < 1266625403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1266625415 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because shut up? < 1266625418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poo < 1266625430 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha MissPiggy is better at trolling than i am I should leave this to her < 1266625450 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog's not esoteric, you can implement an ALGOL like in 10 lines and to imperative programming in that < 1266625467 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could implement some basic functional programming and do that.. < 1266625481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or you could just do actual programming in prolog, which is a lot less silly) < 1266625502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irrelevant < 1266625507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolangs can be easy to turn into non-esolangs < 1266625508 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was any actual program ever written in prolog? < 1266625515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog is sufficiently weird. < 1266625516 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the paper http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.106.6051&rep=rep1&type=pdf < 1266625516 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sup < 1266625518 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty cool < 1266625522 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand how prolog gets this impression < 1266625528 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, actually imo the #1 application of prolog < 1266625539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's WORSE than people going "lol brackets)))))" about lisp < 1266625543 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was tricking the japanese into investing millions of dollars in their "fifth generation computing" project < 1266625546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: help I've been having dirty thoughts. I want to introduce some sort of impurity in my language for a reason < 1266625550 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: oh right < 1266625558 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i remember reading about that, pretty impressive < 1266625563 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another example of the white man keeping the yellow man down < 1266625569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro -- yeah that's a really nice paper, the next step is PVRs Aquarius thesis < 1266625598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise; that will be 10 strokes of the cane! < 1266625617 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog on Prozac < 1266625631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but it's for a reason! < 1266625634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: and it's very restricted! < 1266625647 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prolog on Perambulators < 1266625649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: basically it's to allow you to write memoise: (a->b) -> (a->b) < 1266625662 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, bleh! < 1266625672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: the idea is basically that you can use impurity, *so long as it cannot escape the function* < 1266625677 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I always disliked that but I know pragmatically useful etc etc < 1266625689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I know; I'm just trying to think of a way to make it theoretically sound < 1266625707 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, the function itself is pure, but can be stateful internally? < 1266625727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is... Actually rather Haskell-like. < 1266625737 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what about something like ST? You could have an axiom for it < 1266625764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ST doesn't let you return a pure function that accesses the impure state < 1266625808 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise but the axiom could let you ? maybe < 1266625823 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Actually, I think you can. Just have the state within that function's closure... < 1266625824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then that would be side-effects without escaping, which is exactly my idea. < 1266625828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Write it, then. < 1266625894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/zorysb/memoise.pdf < 1266625910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: new isn't OOP there, I just was playing with the idea of an operator < 1266625916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that took a type and returned some appropriate "empty" value < 1266625925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically mempty. :P < 1266625989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Nope. I'm completely and utterly wrong. < 1266625998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ascii version of that, btw < 1266625999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :memoise(f: a -> b) -> (a -> b) := < 1266625999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : let memory := new Map(a, b) < 1266625999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \x. < 1266625999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x in memory => memory[x] < 1266625999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : otherwise => memory[x] := f(x) < 1266626002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yep < 1266626003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266626010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is defining what escaping the function is < 1266626017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, the memory[x] lookup is always identical to the first call < 1266626023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if the input function is pure (which it must be) the output is < 1266626028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's kinda hard to prove... < 1266626048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well. Actually, not quite. You could use unsafePerformIO and close over an mvar. :P < 1266626062 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you could just prove it's observationally equivalent to a pure function < 1266626081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsafePerformIO gives you unsafeCoerce :: a -> _|_ < 1266626083 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise since it always gives the same values, as the identity function -- that should work out I think < 1266626083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_|_ -> a < 1266626093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ergo unsafePerformIO => _|_ < 1266626103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore unsafePerformIO cannot have a value < 1266626111 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!~CESSMASTE@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1266626111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: right < 1266626123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also, gawp at my amazingly beautiful syntax. :| < 1266626128 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ ☃ < 1266626133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1266626143 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this, troll #esoteric day < 1266626143 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snow mans < 1266626161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey cessmaster is our friend man. < 1266626168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our /friend/ < 1266626170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cess is our friend < 1266626171 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266626180 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am < 1266626188 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should make a ☃ language < 1266626206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one fatal flaw of TeX is the lack of \snowman < 1266626210 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry Libster you cannot apply ☃ in the current evaluation context < 1266626215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IF UR FRENDS WITH CESS ☃☃☃☃☃ POST THIS SNOWMAN 10 TIMES ☃☃☃☃☃☃ < 1266626232 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: xetex < 1266626260 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: memoise f = (\mvar x -> unsafePerformIO $ do if isInMemory mvar x then getMemory mvar x else setMemory mvar x (f x)) $ unsafePerformIO newMVar emptyMemory < 1266626264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signal/noise = 0 < 1266626269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, pikhq just talked < 1266626293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :signal/noise = ω < 1266626308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: would you rather write that or http://filebin.ca/zorysb/memoise.pdf < 1266626316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yours. < 1266626335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I wrote is probably the scariest Haskell line I've written. < 1266626351 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you stare at it hard enough < 1266626355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you just use an ioref < 1266626356 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two unsafePerformIOs merge together < 1266626390 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have any of you gone outside in the past couple of days < 1266626398 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean < 1266626402 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :outside of what < 1266626403 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it reeks < 1266626407 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the basement < 1266626409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't program with unsafe functions < 1266626412 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use ocaml < 1266626414 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhh duhh < 1266626421 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Then everything is unsafe! < 1266626424 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep all the sodas in the refridgerator < 1266626425 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the kitchen < 1266626429 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266626432 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's actually not unsafe that's the thing :P < 1266626437 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should just move your fridge to the basement < 1266626439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is. < 1266626440 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or get a minifridge < 1266626444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gawd < 1266626445 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groan < 1266626453 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basement has a freezer where I keep pizza bagels < 1266626455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You modify state. That is horribly unsafe. < 1266626455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: if i ask you to increase signal/noise, you'll just kick me, won't you < 1266626458 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have room for sodas < 1266626461 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yes. < 1266626461 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you seriously saying that mutable reference break type safety < 1266626464 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to get rid of some of the pizza bagels < 1266626476 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait is this lament's channel? < 1266626477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: how do I phrase a query so that you reading it will cause you to ban Libster? < 1266626479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: No, they break semantic safety. < 1266626481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is metaenquiry, this) < 1266626483 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: put away 40 of em < 1266626485 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster, lament is an op < 1266626486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster: lament/fizzie's. < 1266626490 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you giving the standard "buuut daaad it's hard to program with mutation!!" argument < 1266626491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament is founder now iirc < 1266626491 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266626505 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well lament isn't gonna ban me unless he doesn't it right now just to spite the fact i just said this < 1266626507 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is semantic safety something with a formal definition? < 1266626517 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it something you just made up to claim that mutation is BAD < 1266626518 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libster: *head explodes* < 1266626531 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no < 1266626535 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :andreou is founder < 1266626537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sure am glad fizzie is our main op - also, you didn't hear me say this < 1266626540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Hey, how often do your bugs come from state being modified? < 1266626545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: what status does aardappel have again? < 1266626554 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less than lament < 1266626555 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to guess "all the ones that compile". < 1266626557 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I almost never program anything let alone things with mutable state < 1266626562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: not in the past tho < 1266626567 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just /msg chanserv access list #esoteric < 1266626570 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but I guess that you are giving the "buuut daaad.." argument now < 1266626571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you almost never program anything? < 1266626572 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kilimanjaro: i used to be cofounder but then freenode introduced the #/## distinction and changed the cofounder on all # channels to be freenode-staff :( < 1266626585 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, ahh lame < 1266626590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why the hell do you even care? < 1266626591 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266626599 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i complained to the staff and they're like, well, file a form < 1266626604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, WTF? A non-coder in here?) < 1266626605 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck freenode < 1266626616 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free fucknode < 1266626620 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what should I be programming though? < 1266626622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy is a computer scientist, not a programmer :P < 1266626626 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good idea < 1266626630 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna start fucknode < 1266626631 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computING scientist *ahem* < 1266626639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CSer < 1266626667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: A computing science guy that doesn't cream his pants over purely functional languages? < 1266626671 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming is mostly fucking around with GUI libraries < 1266626672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that's amazing. < 1266626673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266626681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :been there done that < 1266626690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also... < 1266626690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to think MissPiggy is advocating imperative langs < 1266626706 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq oh I dig (pure) fp -- but I don't think it's the whole story < 1266626727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever futzed with a GUI library more than "bashing out a quick Tk interface". < 1266626738 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you are a more skilled programmer than me :) < 1266626742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: opinion time: using things like actual images, or actual tables, as literals: cool thing, or /coolest/ thing? < 1266626747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is only technically programming, really. < 1266626749 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all I do is fuck around with broken software and give up < 1266626765 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: coolest thing :D < 1266626776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Definitely coolest thing. < 1266626782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: In my OS, of course, the literals are, well, /literally objects/. < 1266626785 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think you need a good editor though....... < 1266626789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The table is a literal table embedded in the AST. < 1266626796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The image is a literal image embedded in the AST. < 1266626801 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a wooden table with legs? < 1266626811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can bring up information about them, inquire about them, perform functions on them, etc. < 1266626820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edit them with whatever facility exists to edit them. < 1266626844 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And I presume this goes even further. < 1266626850 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines an editor literal in a program < 1266626860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could technically do that, but that would be ridiculous. < 1266626878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as you could just edit the program directly and save yourself a layer of indirection. < 1266626883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it would be useful for more than, say, automating an editor. But still. < 1266626894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd probably create that programmatically :P < 1266626903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could include example Fugue programs as literal sounds < 1266626912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Play them inline < 1266627032 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266627103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp programs as actual lists. < 1266627104 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266627216 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266627327 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html < 1266627528 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266627767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ought to make my os like, now < 1266627833 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266627915 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what abou plan9 < 1266627931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1266627936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a big heap of char *s < 1266627994 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wchar_T * :P < 1266627998 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1266628001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it treats files as bytes < 1266628002 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266628003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not a heap. < 1266628006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you mean Rune * < 1266628007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A *tree* of char *s. < 1266628009 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266628011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl. < 1266628022 0 :oklogon!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266628026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1266628072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just realised that OSs with changing mutable state are like... continuatiosn. < 1266628075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*continuations < 1266628229 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I'm watching them fly the shuttle away from the satillite < 1266628240 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're still in 0-g < 1266628253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1266628312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266628326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what :( < 1266628359 0 :oklogon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266628362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is Z32 for Z_{2^32} accepted mathematical notation? i would guess not, fortress peeps prolly invented it < 1266628364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad fortress peeps < 1266628367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad! < 1266628402 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh it seems fine < 1266628415 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to know fortress anyway < 1266628424 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it should not be very confusind? < 1266628426 0 :Libster`!~Libster@pool-173-73-27-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266628440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Z(n:Z) := Z_(2^n) < 1266628445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1266628461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a neat thing is that you can define functions on Z_n < 1266628462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :polymorphism! < 1266628612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the (a=>b;c=>d;otherwise=>e) conditional syntax is very elegant < 1266628625 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's from lisp < 1266628641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like it too < 1266628648 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266628659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp? Syntax? What sort of craziness is this? < 1266628664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m-expressions < 1266628668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, not quite < 1266628669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://projectfortress.sun.com/Projects/Community/blog/ConditionalExpressions < 1266628679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp was [p=>a; q=>b; elseclause] < 1266628685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266628687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=>/->/ < 1266628698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mccarthy used (p -> a, q -> b, elseclause) < 1266628704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer (p => a; q => b; otherwise => elseclause) < 1266628781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darned M-expressions. Being Lisp syntax. < 1266628783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although with omitted ;s on newlines < 1266628933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: LLVM isn't replacing -fvia-c. < 1266628938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's replacing /everything/. < 1266628951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, NCG -> LLVM. < 1266628957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a replacement arrow. < 1266628983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The headline is accurate: GHC is dropping the GCC backend (except for bootstrapping) in favor of David's new LLVM backend, as the performance potential is much better." < 1266628985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I stand corrected < 1266629032 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266629240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: They may in the future replace the NCG. < 1266629247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Currently*, it just replaces -fvia-c. < 1266629255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will, rather. < 1266629275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC, they will do so if it's ready in time for .16.) < 1266629428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: does your CAS have some sort of code dump I can load into my system < 1266629487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise well it um doesn't realy exist yet < 1266629490 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finger `ls /home` < 1266629492 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to sort out the GUI < 1266629497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fine with text output < 1266629498 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the REPL < 1266629509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm fine with command line invocation < 1266629512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language is it in? < 1266629560 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't written it! < 1266629571 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't decide to use haskell or coq < 1266629582 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or both) < 1266629597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well coq is already all that stuff in a way < 1266629606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suggest writing it in my lang :P < 1266629735 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is it? < 1266629778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lang < 1266629862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's MissPiggy's thing? < 1266629870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a computer algebra system < 1266629873 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1266629888 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your language? < 1266629923 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, going to play some RoboZZle while I wait for a meeting for a project that I'm supposed to deny the existence of. < 1266629930 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win 19 < 1266629933 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fffw < 1266629963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1266629972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what project < 1266629986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me guess it's some virtual reality shit that you feel some sort of twisted obligation to < 1266629996 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The project that I've mentioned countless times before.. and yes, that's right < 1266630006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about just freeing yourself < 1266630015 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about, I really really want this game to exist < 1266630028 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whih game? < 1266630029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what i've seen its incompetence is so great that there is very little hope of that < 1266630031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so give up and move on < 1266630038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: some remake of some shitty old virtual reality "game" he likes < 1266630047 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtual reality! :O < 1266630054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: think second life but worse < 1266630062 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it an MMO? < 1266630071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that. except without the fighting, or stats < 1266630086 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that people who want to make an MMO are not going to succeed < 1266630159 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We already have an MMO platform of sorts < 1266630177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.neuroproductions.be/logic-lab/LogicLab2.swf is fun < 1266630182 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And resources such as the server is all paid for already < 1266630190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, by AWI < 1266630190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(p xnor q) xor (r nand s) = FUN TIMES < 1266630255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wish i had a mic to play with it < 1266630292 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an RL friend who wants to make an MMO with me though < 1266630299 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And honestly, I'm not too interested in that < 1266630548 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266630565 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the logic lab, I can only use one of each piece? < 1266630571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er no < 1266630574 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m < 1266630606 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xnor? nxor or is it something else? < 1266630641 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be possible to make a flip-flop with logic gates, right? < 1266630674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has flip flops < 1266630683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: presumably it's exclusive nor < 1266630687 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but those are technically redundant? < 1266630724 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Flip flop is just some logic around SR latch, and SR latch is two NANDs or NORs (depending on polarity of signals). < 1266630767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does the spinny output thing actually do? I mean, besides spin? < 1266630801 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it needed two SR latches... I don't remember anymore. < 1266630910 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does the NOT gate make signal out of thin air? < 1266630941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic < 1266630954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266630958 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly program < 1266630961 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5min before the meeting and no one's here < 1266630963 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: At least CMOS NOT gate connects output to positive voltage if input is at ground. < 1266630972 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo you are good at pretending it doesnt exist! < 1266630987 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I care very little about the confidentiality junk < 1266631009 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they really cared, they'd have told us before I started telling everyone I knew < 1266631061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they even /care/ about confidentiality in a hobby project, they are abject fools, no more intelligent than children, with a complete misunderstanding of how groups self-organise. < 1266631071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their use of C# only bolsters this suspicion. < 1266631118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're far more likely to waste arbitrary amounts of your time than to produce anything meaningful. Making a 3D game is /hard/, especially a networked 3D game, and these people appear to be too idiotic to do it. < 1266631136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask yourself if this game being made really has infinite utility, and if there isn't a better way to achieve it than with this hopeless rubbish. < 1266631147 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "networked 3d" part is already taken care of by the platform, ActiveWorlds < 1266631156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They still need to write the networking code. < 1266631161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And don't think that invalidates the rest of what I said. < 1266631184 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, no < 1266631197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so it magically connects to a socket for them? < 1266631202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think not. It's still C# code. < 1266631211 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of that code is part of Active Worlds < 1266631240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actual logic of the game is in a program that does connect to the world, and connecting is simple < 1266631267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I think there may be real issues underlying your seemingly life-controlling nostalgia... < 1266631354 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the original < 1266631357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to see the original < 1266631373 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266631421 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266631440 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Mutation+activeworlds&search_type=&aq=f [the first video there is not that great [it's mine], and Mutation - Mafia has nothing to do with anything] < 1266631442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :active worlds < 1266631571 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is so cool < 1266631578 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like 3D IRC < 1266631584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh don't /encourage/ him < 1266631591 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266631887 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whee, no one's there < 1266631933 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry Sgeo < 1266631947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He means at the "meeting". < 1266632009 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did MissPiggy think I meant? < 1266632074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be possible that I'm 12 hours late. The guy in charge mixed up AM and PM once before. < 1266632100 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think that's why it's at "11:59" and not "12:00" < 1266632164 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SG-1 now < 1266632215 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266632674 0 :kilimanjaro!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266632839 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266632859 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't an AM/PM issue this time < 1266633329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/djzwuz/on-syntax.pdf < 1266633334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A little ditty about syntax. Comments welcome. < 1266633394 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266633455 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266633568 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a PDF < 1266633582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is. < 1266633591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's zero nickels; go buy a better PDF reader and/or operating system. < 1266633617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me know when you're ready to join every single person in academia, plus some people not. (Okay, so academia loves .ps too, but still.) < 1266634141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOBODY LOVSE ME < 1266634160 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266634164 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lovse < 1266634167 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.cx < 1266634170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I like that spelling of that word now. < 1266634177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, shit, didn't even notice that < 1266634177 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1266634180 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.cx < 1266634193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Loves sex and alise sex? < 1266634196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've got cx on the brain. < 1266634245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=theodore+roosevelt+source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtheodore%2Broosevelt%2Bsource:life%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D80&imgurl=2934f1cc36185de2 < 1266634250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theodore Roosevelt riding a moose. < 1266634442 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266634505 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266635004 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266635400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1266635403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you tomorrow < 1266635445 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1266635676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: We should write in the pure, untyped lambda calculus. < 1266635713 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just offered to give the project head some money because his AW citizenship is going to expire soonish. No cit, no project < 1266635717 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He turned it down < 1266636455 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266638511 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266638908 0 :Libster`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266640403 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266641713 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!~CESSMASTE@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1266641927 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-180-186.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266642083 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266642681 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266642729 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266644687 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@97-118-212-59.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266644723 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1266644874 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266645722 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266645901 0 :Libster`!~Libster@pool-173-73-27-43.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266646752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266646946 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266647686 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266648909 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266649057 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266649344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266649433 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266649486 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266650014 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266650246 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266650289 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys, is anyone here a fan of SNUSP? < 1266650705 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266650761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266650897 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266651027 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron, apparently you've written quite a bit of extension stuff for it < 1266651037 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266651117 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bibbles a bit at EPARM < 1266651136 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've also written an interpreter for it, including some of the extensions i described on the wiki < 1266651158 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i've written a command shell in an extended form of SNUSP < 1266651238 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this week, they got uploaded to the Esoteric Files Archive < 1266651247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EPARM seems a bit like PSOX [my project which I abandoned, but is mostly done], except designed better possibly < 1266651261 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh really? < 1266651279 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does PSOX do? < 1266651292 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX < 1266651316 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That PSOX 1.0a1 thing is a bit old < 1266651361 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, EPARM is _only_ for command-line arguments? < 1266651394 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1266651411 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the snusp-start command framework can be used to define other special functions < 1266651424 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but EPARM only specifies argument-passing funcionality < 1266651485 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. PSOX has some functionality defined in the spec [Network/HTTP access in particular] < 1266651499 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And was supposed to have File I/O defined, but it was abandoned before then < 1266651559 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so PSOX is designed to allow more advanced functionality than reading and writing to a program that only uses stdin and stdout? < 1266651583 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, it still reads and writes to a program that only uses stdin and stdout < 1266651612 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question: Did you manage to make EPARM work on Windows? < 1266651633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had trouble figuring out how to do that, that resulted in requiring the program to output the fact that it wants to receive input < 1266651650 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i didn't try < 1266651710 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you talking about making it so that if you run the program with args on the windows command prompt, it will receive the arguments? < 1266651755 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case, the windows arguments don't make it to the esoteric program < 1266651778 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, an interpreter could be made that will convert the args < 1266651834 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my snusp command shell, it sends EPARM arguments to a program iff the user tries to run it with arguments. Otherwise it doesn't use EPARM. < 1266651847 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the design of EPARM, that worked pretty well < 1266651873 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the programs never have to output the fact that they want to receive EPARM input < 1266652300 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266652587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, was IAW < 1266652633 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266652642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266652647 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've also come up with something to give advanced functionality to stdin/stdout programs: i've started writing a kernel wrapper for Linux. < 1266652671 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does the snusp-start command framework deal with the possibility of a program wanting to do stuff, get input related to that stuff, do more stuff, do regular output, etc. etc. etc.? < 1266652700 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to go to sleep now. Good night < 1266652707 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266652712 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good night < 1266652799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266652800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266652852 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i mainly came here to plug my newly uploaded programs: Snuspi the SNUSP interpreter, and Snuspatron the extended-SNUSP command shell < 1266652867 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are available in the impl/ and src/ subfolders of http://esolangs.org/files/snusp/ , on the Esoteric Files Archive. < 1266653022 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the snusp-start command framework allows a program to be fed meta-data relating to how it is being executed < 1266653081 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can inform the program that a certain protocol is available for it to use, for example < 1266653171 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk < 1266653220 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks. i have already downloaded it via svn < 1266653238 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AH < 1266653240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ah < 1266653258 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a feature can't make use of sending metadata to a program when it is started, then i'm afraid snusp-start commands won't help it < 1266653293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, there might be a bit of a bug in db_utils.py on line 18 < 1266653298 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :concerning a missing " < 1266653461 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur < 1266653485 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266653604 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and trunk/ex has a lot of obsolete stuff < 1266653613 0 :Libster`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266653626 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just got psoxsimplecat.b to work using your psox program < 1266653648 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266653650 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try online.b < 1266653668 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq made a wget.b, but it's not included in there < 1266653676 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I should be going to sleep 3 hours ago < 1266653693 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should online.b do < 1266653695 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jsut quickly < 1266653698 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i'll let you go < 1266653752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When it runs, type in a URL (including the http://) and press enter < 1266653757 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should display the contents < 1266653774 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hot dog it did < 1266653805 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266654140 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this post contains info about my kernel wrapper. Ctrl+F "an arch" to see the basic usage architecture: http://esolangs.org/forum/kareha.pl/1266506523/1 < 1266654230 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my wrapper uses a basic protocol that has the client program basically setting the sycall arguments and calling linux syscalls by number < 1266654248 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conceiveably, a wrapper can be written that uses PSOX. < 1266654577 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266654761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266654836 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266655075 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's .b ? < 1266655192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater4, file extension? < 1266655195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck < 1266655201 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266655203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.bf is befunge < 1266655209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't mix them up < 1266655236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(befunge 98 uses .b98 though) < 1266655258 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you guys should reimplement XanaduSpace in brainfuck < 1266655272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue what that is < 1266655306 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the better alternative to hypertext < 1266655509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vaporware iirc? < 1266655541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have read about it somewhere < 1266655552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater4, but go reimplement it yourself < 1266655604 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, there's a demo out < 1266655613 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it only opens the single demo document < 1266655615 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266655641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, vapourware < 1266656786 0 :MigoMipo!kvirc@79.138.178.211.bredband.tre.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1266657005 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-169-6-64.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266657509 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266657660 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266658515 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1266659541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"pikhq: (also, WTF? A non-coder in here?)" <<< i'm a non-coder! < 1266659798 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only code if i absolutely have to, and i never program anything. < 1266660159 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266660485 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266660693 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266660776 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266661619 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1266661937 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-166-170-102.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266661977 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266663484 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266665682 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1266665766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Sgeo just offered to give the project head some money because his AW citizenship is going to expire soonish. No cit, no project < 1266665767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : He turned it down < 1266665788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a fool, unless he believes that your supply of money is limited enough that that would cause you disutility greater than the project not existing < 1266665798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or unless he has money with which he is going to renew it anyway < 1266666106 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266666554 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266667120 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266667185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklofok < 1266667501 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266667534 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266667556 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266667896 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-166-170-102.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266667938 0 :Aszstal!~asztal@host86-166-170-102.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266668123 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266668153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The obvious answer is that you took a computational specification of a human brain, and used that to precompute the Giant Lookup Table. (Thereby creating uncounted googols of human beings, some of them in extreme pain, the supermajority gone quite mad in a universe of chaos where inputs bear no relation to outputs. But damn the ethics, this is for philosophy.)" < 1266668177 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266668415 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is that quote from? < 1266668624 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lesswrong.com/lw/pa/gazp_vs_glut/ < 1266668962 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe1cfa00-120.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266669088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: why thank you < 1266669091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mr googler :P < 1266669099 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266669143 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone who doesn't suck at C tell me how to load oa text file into a square array of characters that matches what I'd see in a text editor? < 1266669150 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :load a* < 1266669159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know how to open a file, yes? < 1266669163 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266669177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use getc() to read the file character-by-character; keep counters i and j, initially 0. < 1266669183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the char is \n, j++ < 1266669186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i=0 < 1266669190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise < 1266669197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chars[i][j] = char; < 1266669197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i++; < 1266669199 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do I do with the characters I dno't overwrite? < 1266669207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Don't overwrite"? < 1266669218 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones that I don't set in the array < 1266669231 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how would I know what size to have the array be? < 1266669247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What characters would you not set into the array? < 1266669249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean newlines? < 1266669260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I said, increase j++ and reset i to 0 on a newline, then continue to the next character. < 1266669281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you don't. Either pick a "big enough" value, or use malloc and realloc to adjust the array size as you run out of it. < 1266669292 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, like line 6 being five characters long, what would I do with chars[7][6] < 1266669298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Oh. < 1266669303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Initialise the array to \0s < 1266669308 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266669311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\0 is end-of-string in C < 1266669315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\0" < 1266669316 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a terrible programmer < 1266669321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you could use a line as a string < 1266669333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: malloc and realloc "But isn't that hellishly boring and easy to fuck up?" Yes, it is, so don't use C. < 1266669356 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I love playing with pointers < 1266669394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[list(x) for x in open('filename', 'r').read().split('\n')] < 1266669396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's it in Python < 1266669398 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to go get soda so that I feel less shitty. Later. < 1266669407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Doesn't pad out the lines to all be the same length, but there you go.) < 1266669431 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is amazing, but I don't feel like learning it because of the syntax constraints/restraints/whatever. < 1266669452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So learn some other language. < 1266669454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Haskell. < 1266669459 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::d < 1266669461 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266669475 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266669481 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266669504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron: thanks what? :P < 1266669574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a complete implementation < 1266669575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines = open('/dev/stdin', 'r').read().strip().split('\n') < 1266669575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :width = max(len(x) for x in lines) < 1266669575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :table = [list(x.ljust(width)) for x in lines] < 1266669591 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the googling :P < 1266669605 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should have googled it myself... < 1266669631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266669693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266669693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines = open('/dev/stdin', 'r').read().strip().split('\n') < 1266669694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :width = max(len(x) for x in lines) < 1266669694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :table = [list(x.ljust(width)) for x in lines] < 1266669698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :substitute /dev/stdin for a filename and that works < 1266669701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blank places considered spaces < 1266669900 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: co'o rodo < 1266670170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish uorygl was here, so that I could share with him an awful pun. < 1266670557 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266671238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://filebin.ca/uekfh/gcd.pdf < 1266671239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty. < 1266671724 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266671785 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you think an image would have sufficed? :P < 1266671830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typeset it in TeXmacs; producing an image would have been a lot harder than hitting export. < 1266671840 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1266671842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, no; this one scales to any size. < 1266671859 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :svg? :D < 1266671862 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kidding. < 1266671865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, it's how you program in my language. Better get used to it :) < 1266671925 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your language interprets PDF files? :D < 1266671948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no, it compiles abstract syntax trees. But ASCII source code isn't the done thing, really. < 1266671960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd type that form directly into an editor with keypresses something like: < 1266671972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcd(m:ZZ,n:ZZ)->Z:= < 1266671975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n=0=>m < 1266671982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise=>gcd(n,m-n*floor(m/n))) < 1266671987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it'd show as that. < 1266671993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*->ZZ < 1266672005 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works, I suppose < 1266672025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That form wouldn't be stored, though; just interpreted as editor commands to create an AST. < 1266672063 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quick question: Should I use the form of Boat on the wiki page or a minimized version? < 1266672106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When in doubt, simplify, especially for an esolang. Anything not directly related to the central idea must go; that way, you have to utilise the central idea at all times to create programs, heightening the esotericism. Also, it makes it easier to implement, and cleaner. < 1266672108 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :said minimized version: http://64.vg/src/48029a6eda8165c6d5a5b6f71a785f1e/raw < 1266672118 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266672594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266672599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should really be some notat- anyway < 1266672614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: I'd drop !=; it's !(e==e) < 1266672620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd drop nand, too, it's !(e&e) < 1266672630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd also drop division; you don't have addition or anything, so why? < 1266672677 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!~CESSMASTE@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1266672721 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because multiplicatin is really hard to to IM < 1266672737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1266672740 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I culd see me dropping !=, but it's a real operator < 1266672749 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, my o key is being stupid < 1266672752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to IM? < 1266672753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1266672756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have no mult < 1266672759 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO < 1266672764 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do* < 1266672767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1266672772 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do, in my opinion < 1266672773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, just drop != and !& they don't save any chars < 1266672776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(e&e) < 1266672777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(e!&e) < 1266672780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: howso < 1266672781 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nand? < 1266672810 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplication is hard to do in an excessive way like brainfuck does, and that's not my goal < 1266672957 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do suppose I shld re-add subratsin and get rid of binary not though. < 1266672961 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should* < 1266673028 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtration* < 1266673093 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp*! The comment form on this scam page does nothing! What a surprise! < 1266673139 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposedly moderated, but a quick glance at the source reveals no contact with the server < 1266673163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: you have no mult though < 1266673164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just division < 1266673169 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, some of the text makes a reference to what websites seem to think is my hometown. < 1266673171 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e/(1/e) < 1266673177 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's e*e < 1266673186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1266673190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but division is "complicated" < 1266673193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brings in reals etc < 1266673194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have mult < 1266673207 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is an integer < 1266673208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yeah common scam thingy < 1266673211 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1266673211 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah scam pages... < 1266673214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: then what you have is not division < 1266673217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you have no "e" < 1266673225 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266673226 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used HideMyAss.com, and now Marie is from Woodstock! < 1266673228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, 1/x = 0 if you only have ints < 1266673236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She's the magical ordinary mom! < 1266673240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so x/(1/y) cannot be x*y < 1266673242 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said e/(1/e) in the scope of mathematics < 1266673244 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Boat < 1266673245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's x/0 < 1266673249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, / is not sufficient to give * < 1266673256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore you cannot justify keeping / because of multiplication < 1266673262 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1266673271 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot to implement shifting < 1266673286 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm kidding, there's no reason to have it) < 1266673322 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way that memory is addressed, and the fact that I have division, allows for multiplicatino < 1266673326 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on* < 1266673337 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm saying that because I can't find a way to prove myself wrong, so have at it! < 1266673352 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually reminds me of when i visited some Yahoo chat rooms yesterday. There seemed to be a lot of bots there < 1266673356 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you find a serious flaw I agree with then I'll remove division or add multiplication < 1266673436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: well x/y in your lang is integer division right? < 1266673447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. floor(x:RR/y:RR) < 1266673455 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the fine print genuine? If it wasn't, would they be shut down by .. some governmental thingy? < 1266673468 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe so < 1266673478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 < 1/x < 1 < 1266673493 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<= < 1266673497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, yes. < 1266673502 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes < 1266673506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, floor(1/x) = 1 if x = 1; 0 otherwise < 1266673522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with reals, x/(1/y) = x*y < 1266673526 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Please also recognize that the story and comments depicted on this site and the person depicted in the story are not real." < 1266673528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for integers: < 1266673542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x/(1/y) -> x/(if y = 1 then 1 else 0) < 1266673544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1266673550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if y = 1 then x else (undefined) < 1266673560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, you cannot use integer division to perform integer multiplication. < 1266673561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1266673575 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even with binary shifting? < 1266673584 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's innacurate? < 1266673619 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary shifting is, itself, multiplication and division of powers of 2. < 1266673636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x<>y = x/(2^y) < 1266673663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already have /, so x>>y only adds one useful operation < 1266673675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1>>y = 1/(2^y) < 1266673688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with this is that 1>>y always = 0. < 1266673697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, anyway < 1266673702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can we do 3*3, let's say < 1266673708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we can't do 3/(1/3) < 1266673711 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hang on < 1266673718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 3 isn't a power of 2, so we can't use << < 1266673722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can however < 1266673725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :express it as 6/2 < 1266673733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 6/(2^1) < 1266673742 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use << to reduce the innacuraccies of integer divisin, can't you? < 1266673750 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ion* < 1266673752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, that gets us three < 1266673760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not in an operation < 1266673766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we still need a general multiplication < 1266673769 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean? < 1266673771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since 3 isn't a power of two < 1266673773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can't use << < 1266673781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore, you cannot multiply in your language without using addition and a loop. < 1266673782 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266673789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore the division is useless for that purpose < 1266673803 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266673820 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1266673822 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.maxmnd.com/index.php < 1266673828 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi MissPiggy < 1266673828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to think of a name for can-be-equalified < 1266673831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Equalisable? < 1266673846 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266673848 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equalified? < 1266673849 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1266673859 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decidible equality < 1266673864 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unifiable < 1266673893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so I've decided how to do things like inferring "type-class instances" (not really) in my language < 1266673920 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since the trials are completely free, there is no cost or risk to you" < 1266673934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a keyword "implicit"; it is usable as the LHS in a type declaration < 1266673947 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beyond not realizing that you have to cancel [if the fine print is legit] or scammers doing whatever they want [otherwise]? < 1266673955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes an association with the type on the right and its corresponding definition (specified like `implicit : a = x`) < 1266673959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the obvious happens < 1266673995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicit : (card ∅ = 0) = ... < 1266674011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implicit : Ring ZZ = ... < 1266674014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266674049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally in this way we can read "implicit : a = x" as "The proof that a is true is..." so we can view "Ring a" as "a is a Ring" rather than "the Ringy stuff for a" < 1266674053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it's a value < 1266674165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://filebin.ca/djzwuz/on-syntax.pdf < 1266674186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be warned that the syntax in there might not be so excellent; it was written while tired :P < 1266674466 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good point in consisent < 1266674529 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-242.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266674571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one-page articles are a nice idea < 1266674621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: can you think of any problems w/ my implicit idea? < 1266674634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is in e.g. Ring when you want to have the ring properties and name them implicit < 1266674640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you have to name the type again when defining them < 1266674642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't see a problem with that < 1266674645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type is the name in some sense < 1266674745 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I think that implicit stuff sucks but I didn't want to say :P < 1266674765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so you want to specify the equality, ring, ... definitions every single time you use a numeric function? < 1266674767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sweet < 1266674787 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've still not figured out how to solve that problem < 1266674798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i just solved it, and made it work for proofs as well :) < 1266674807 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266674815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's a good solution; in a way, when you ask for a member of a type implicitly in a function, you're saying "the value implicit_this_type" < 1266674821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just a way of making that actually true < 1266675099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1266675111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something like rings but without the additive inverse? < 1266675122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. something I can put 0, + and * in and have NN be part of it :P < 1266675187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rng_(algebra) < 1266675909 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266676712 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266676819 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266677032 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266677618 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_sheaf disgusting < 1266678272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> If Carl Shulman does not let me out of the box, I will Paypal him $25. If he < 1266678272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> does let me out of the box, Carl Shulman will donate $2500 (CDN) to SIAI. < 1266678278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those... are high fucking stakes. < 1266678296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit, he released it in the end < 1266678304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: know how you said high stakes? < 1266678319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this guy donated $2500 2005 canadian dollars to SIAI because he let the AI out < 1266678343 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say high stakes < 1266678349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, someone did. < 1266678362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a wizard did it < 1266678394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally, if I was risking >1000 currency, I would try really fucking hard to be as close as possible to bashing no on the keyboard while staying within the test rules. < 1266678403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think everyone else would, too. < 1266678408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'part from richies. < 1266678625 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the next one the human bet $2500 US and won, keeping the AI in the box. < 1266678641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Of course. I agree that Eliezer is no god. :) < 1266678653 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266678670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the existence of /anyone/ losing such a challenge with such stakes for them if they lose is striking. < 1266678678 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think he did it for the money < 1266678687 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I agree < 1266678705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but no matter what i'm doing something for if I think "if i say yes i'll lose $2500 cad" would be pretty motivating < 1266678711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's towards an organisation you support < 1266678741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : therefore, floor(1/x) = 1 if x = 1; 0 otherwise <-- forgetting negative numbers here? < 1266678757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: clearly by 'integers' i meant 'naturals' < 1266678760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it makes any difference to the rest of your argument < 1266678770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266678936 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i think that shifting + integer division might allow you to do multiplication in _less_ loop iterations than just addition < 1266678947 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're clever < 1266678968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266679000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: also I thought of a computable variant of ring computing < 1266679023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1266679024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let 1 = identity; let infinity = _|_ < 1266679028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity+x = infinity < 1266679033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity*x = infinity < 1266679042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we already know that 1=identity works < 1266679043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1266679047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need an additive identity < 1266679051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let 0 = foo < 1266679055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo x = magic < 1266679056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where < 1266679062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic + y = y < 1266679067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f magic = magic for all other f < 1266679071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada < 1266679073 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1266679083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly "magic" is _not_ the most unesoteric value ever dreamed of < 1266679093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's basically like _|_ except warm and cuddly if you add it up :P < 1266679118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is infinity + (-infinity) *cough* < 1266679135 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0! < 1266679139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: can't we just make it rng computing :P < 1266679146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever ring-without-negative is < 1266679153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes but we need it turing computable :P < 1266679157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway hmm < 1266679164 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well yes in fact i think cpressey may done that already < 1266679172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(vague recall) < 1266679174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he did ring computing with negatives < 1266679178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 2007, even < 1266679180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why he's gone back to it < 1266679183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean before that < 1266679195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/doc/website_burro.html < 1266679197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check it < 1266679211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266679217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-0 = 0, obviously < 1266679230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we don't need to invert magic which I'm thankful for; I've never seen a value so weird < 1266679243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 is easy < 1266679246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but -infinity? < 1266679250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266679254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you can do -(nonterminating) < 1266679261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't pattern match on -infinity, just like infinity < 1266679273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Clearly, I must ask Wolfram Alpha. < 1266679285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, infinity + -infinity = indeterminate. < 1266679294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeterminate could be said to be _|_. < 1266679305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, infinity + -infinity = infinity. Therefore, -infinity = infinity. < 1266679308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happy? < 1266679308 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does infinity - infinity = 0? < 1266679312 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or was that a joke? < 1266679327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because x - x = 0; but really there's multiple interpretations. < 1266679331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine is the computable one :P < 1266679336 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: burro is a group, not a ring < 1266679338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though it sort of breaks the x+-x = 0 no exceptions thing < 1266679348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, we're not using infinity as /the result/ < 1266679357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're just saying that infinity + -infinity never yields a value, i.e. it is bottom. < 1266679364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just so happens that we have a name for bottom in our language, infinity. < 1266679378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we can say that infinity + -infinity = infinity, but really the failure to terminate is at a higher-level in the system: the evaluator. < 1266679392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we allowed to do that? :-) < 1266679402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: infinity + -infinity indeterminate is allowed in the extended reals precisely because they are _not_ a ring < 1266679409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or group, even) < 1266679431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking more that infinity + -infinity "has a value" < 1266679433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just unknowable < 1266679603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AI-Box Experiment #3 gave the AI a minimum time of four hours. I would < 1266679603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recommend 4-6 hours for future Experiments. Typing is slower than speech." < 1266679605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Endurance typing. < 1266679776 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise nonstandard analysis < 1266679787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer bullshitology :) < 1266679793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can just throw about terms < 1266679795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "unknowable" < 1266679797 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266679797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it all works < 1266679811 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are missing out on the good stuff though < 1266679824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinitesimals are sexy though < 1266679836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: some day you'll find a time cube inside your ideas though, and then you will know that all hope is lost < 1266679849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already accept the cubic truth < 1266679865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey someone come up with a formal mathematical system with -1*-1=-1 < 1266679868 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolololol < 1266679887 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: any ring of characteristic 2 < 1266679894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"criticism of non-standard analysis, by Halmos,[who?]" < 1266679897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(including some fields) < 1266679899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You do not know who Halmos is. < 1266679909 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266679919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of _course_ i know who halmos is < 1266679930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266679934 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread < 1266679934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's that guy who made the qed symbol! :P < 1266679962 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?(?(e){c}){c}this is valid, however pointless it is < 1266679963 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ummmmmm so I should do something today instead of waste it < 1266679967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: only if it's fun < 1266679986 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll have a bath < 1266679988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: READ THE ED STORIES (if I try hard enough, will this become a meme on the annoyingness order of PSOX?) < 1266680014 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah the ed stories are good, I haven't finished them < 1266680025 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, READ THE FINE STRUCTURE STORIES < 1266680034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO < 1266680061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed stories would make a good film < 1266680110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(would fine structure?) < 1266680163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes a link to Halmos. < 1266680185 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, possibly not. The setting jumps around quite a bit < 1266680195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a link to Halmos < 1266680203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Does in movies, too :P < 1266680212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just might have to rearrange things so there's fewer switches < 1266680213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: instead of the [who?], wiseass < 1266680300 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd suggest another reason it might not be movie-able, but it would be spoilery < 1266680346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: does everyone die? that's rather acceptable. extremely LURID sex? just call it a porn drama! scenes set in the platonic world of abstract mathematics? *that* could be a problem. < 1266680352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(only say if it's any of them, not a specific one :P) < 1266680385 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of those is the case, but it wasn't what I was thinking of in particular < 1266680394 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, actually, not quite < 1266680421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the first one, or one of the second two? < 1266680443 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the second two < 1266680469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm guessing probably _not_ the last one < 1266680477 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extremely lurid sex set in the platonic world of abstract mathematics. < 1266680506 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go read the first Fine Structure story < 1266680514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the special effects? < 1266680523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read up to the one where the girl (I think) can go through matter or something < 1266680528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally first page of that < 1266680530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then stopped < 1266680581 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. I was thinking of Unbelievable Scenes [in relation to your options] < 1266680588 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's a guy who can go through matter < 1266680601 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Unbelievable Scenes in Space < 1266680628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know what that is. < 1266680636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine Structure used to be unordered, IIRC. < 1266680642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was just a collection of stories, then he jiggled them about. < 1266680701 0 :addicted!~addicted@217.219.111.150 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266680703 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, I just thought of another scene that may be difficult to depict visually < 1266680728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the going-through-matter thing isn't hard < 1266680734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like, standard effects stuff nowadays :P < 1266680742 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not thinking of that < 1266680747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "And then, HE SAW PI." < 1266680749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ALL OF IT" < 1266680752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1266680772 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean using a narrator to depict stuff? < 1266680785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I just meant ridiculously impossible things :P < 1266680802 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is watching SG-1 < 1266680826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, now I have "Pi" in my head. < 1266680874 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of it? < 1266680898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858715600/ < 1266680907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mfr7xG6smhU < 1266681012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION saw that < 1266681028 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember if that's the same song that.. < 1266681031 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is < 1266681299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do most languages lack such basic things as reading/writing numbers to arbitrary bases in the stdlib < 1266681320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems people just thought of the most common operations and never thought to parametrise them... or even to look at mathematics < 1266681399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: hey you know we were talking consciousness? < 1266681420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found a paper by Nick Bostrom supporting two identical but separate brains experiencing two separate qualia-thingies < 1266681425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's good < 1266681429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've changed my opinion because of it < 1266681430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.springerlink.com/index/V1X24V662H5726W5.pdf < 1266681449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh wants you to log in < 1266681449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1266681457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have the pdf here < 1266681478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://filebin.ca/watags/experience.pdf < 1266681625 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a springer link accout o_O < 1266681631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :) < 1266681647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a computer that can access lesswrong.com, and i read a post where someone linked to a pdf < 1266681658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but uhh if you're impressed by that, I guess I should get an account < 1266681677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266681692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah... fuck non-open papers < 1266681694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a chainsaw < 1266681736 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't believe in qualia :( < 1266681742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you don't have to < 1266681751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just being used as a less ambiguous term for consciousness < 1266681764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but qualia /are/ real; you know how you agreed totally with that Dennett video? < 1266681774 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A hardcore physicalist might be tempted to dismiss this question as being merely < 1266681777 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminological. However, I believe that we can give content to the question by < 1266681778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well - [Daniel Dennett writes that qualia is "an unfamiliar term for something that could not be more familiar to each of us: the ways things seem to us."] < 1266681781 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linking it to significant ethical and epistemological issues." < 1266681783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dennett believes in qualia :) < 1266681805 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise well Dennet said various obviously true statements collect in such a way that it gave him a strong context to argue against religion < 1266681809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qualia != metaphysics < 1266681843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you have a faulty heuristics system; it has some sort of rule "attempts to define aspects of consciousness => probably metaphysics => don't believe with high probability" < 1266681855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not true < 1266681860 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I don't actually know what metaphysics is.. < 1266681865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bullshit :P < 1266681871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "we have a soul" < 1266681886 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is not easy to say what metaphysics is" -- groan < 1266681887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often "consciousness" is substituted for "soul" but they don't /mean/ what sane people mean when they say consciousness < 1266681889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they mean "soul" < 1266681917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rest assured that though there are metaphysical idiots who believe in a wrong thing they call qualia, qualia as Bostrom and Dennett mean it is just a term for our conscious experiences < 1266681933 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1266681942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so don't be put off the paper by it :) < 1266681989 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is not quite sure if I read this whole paper.. the punchline will be "1 + 1 = 2" < 1266682010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, it makes a good argument < 1266682059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw a fun thing: if you have an AI that has total flexibility with its thoughts; i.e. it can cause any brain state it likes, but it's in an environment with no colour, it can't experience red (apart from sheer chance by randomly modifying itself, ofc; but that's insanely risky and idiotic) right up until you explain how its brain processes colour < 1266682073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can just modify its thoughts so that it is experiencing the red quale :) < 1266682092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically a spin on the Mary's room thought experiment, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%27s_room, but that's intended to (unconvincingly) show that qualia are non-physical) < 1266682100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Later, however, he rejected epiphenomenalism. This, he argues, is due to the fact that when Mary first sees red, she says "wow", so it must be Mary's qualia that causes her to say "wow". This contradicts epiphenomenalism. Since the Mary's room thought experiment seems to create this contradiction, there must be something wrong with it. This is often referred to as the "there must be a reply" reply.]] < 1266682109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is, yeah, exactly, debunked < 1266682144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... is = on types well-defined? < 1266682156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think so, but it makes me uncomfortable because from what i can tell it depends on what names you use < 1266682187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. (data a = Z | S a) ≠ (data a = Zero | Succ a) < 1266682191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're different values < 1266682204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then two (data a = Z | S a)s in different modules are not equal, either < 1266682211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so only Foo = Foo < 1266682228 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hehe! I have tried to work hard on that problem :D < 1266682242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess equality for types is "are they the same pointer" :) < 1266682265 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are isomorphic, so you can't prove they aren't equal... but both assuming they are and assuming they aren't are consistent axioms < 1266682278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they aren't equal because Z is a distinct value to Zero < 1266682284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1266682288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S Z -> S Z < 1266682290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266682294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S Zero -> type error < 1266682300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Zero cannot be of the same type as Z < 1266682305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore type-of Zero != type-of Z < 1266682307 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Moreover, there are many local stochastic processes, each one of which has a non- < 1266682311 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zero probability of resulting in the creation of a human brain in any particular < 1266682314 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible state.2" < 1266682317 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what ... the... hell.... < 1266682317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I want to make * an instance of Collection < 1266682321 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet this guy plays the lottery (and thinks he might win) < 1266682329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no he doesn't < 1266682346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's a bayesian rationalist, just like eliezer < 1266682358 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why is he making this argument :| < 1266682372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you considered that perhaps you're wrong rather than him? < 1266682373 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :""Therefore, if the universe is indeed infinite then on our current best < 1266682373 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :physical theories all possible human brain-states would, with probability one, be < 1266682377 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instantiated somewhere," < 1266682379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would resolve that cognitive dissonance < 1266682382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can I possibly be wrong? < 1266682399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, considering the probability that you might be wrong even for something you think is true is a key part of rationalism :p < 1266682411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, he's right; it isn't *necessary* but it's probability 1 < 1266682413 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he says: infinite number of trials for a nonzero probability ==> it has happened < 1266682425 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's so silly! < 1266682437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because all N-sized parts of space = all other adjacent N-sized parts of space is incredibly unlikely < 1266682507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :roconnor has written some interesting things on when it's actually rational to play the lottery http://r6.ca/blog/20090522T015739Z.html < 1266682517 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I have read that < 1266682579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting technique this guy uses... < 1266682583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who < 1266682591 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. This is another reason to accept Duplication. *20 < 1266682592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O'Connor or Bostrom? < 1266682598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bostrom < 1266682610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well see now all I'm doing is wishing I hadn't linked it to you because all you're doing is, every few statements, making a quote and calling it nonsense < 1266682621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise don't you agree ?? < 1266682625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think /both/ of us are less happy/enlightened for this < 1266682641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that's irrelevant; you're not even considering the arguments or attempting to rebut them for what I can see, which makes me less happy < 1266682653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because such analysis of arguments is a good thing regardless of if they're true or false < 1266682659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was, at the very least, interesting < 1266682697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_type_system < 1266682710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some languages may differ on the details (such as whether the features must match in name)." < 1266682715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1266682723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo: < 1266682725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S Z -> S Z < 1266682725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : but < 1266682725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S Zero -> type error < 1266682725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so Zero cannot be of the same type as Z < 1266682725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : therefore type-of Zero != type-of Z < 1266682725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proves it < 1266682734 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. there is some kind of "quantum physics" thing.. which appears probabilistic and it might randomly generate a human being < 1266682745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we have (data a = b) meaning "the data type a, constructors are: b" < 1266682745 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND the universe is infinte < 1266682752 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore all possible humans have been created < 1266682759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's a _thought experiment_ < 1266682767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the purpose of argument < 1266682772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and we want to work out (data a = x) == (data b = y) < 1266682780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should substitute a with b in x, and b with a in y < 1266682785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and make sure that "works" < 1266682796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S Z -> S Z, so substitute the a in a with a b: S Zero -> type error < 1266682800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore the types cannot be equal < 1266682810 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this deduction is false though, consider the different between a NORMAL and non-NORMAL IRRATIONAL number < 1266682819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: he did not say < 1266682823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore all possible humans have been created < 1266682824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he said < 1266682828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all possible humans exist with probability 1 < 1266682835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't understand the different, read up on probability. < 1266682838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*difference < 1266682845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's /very/ important < 1266682855 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I know what probability 1 means < 1266682863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you must agree that it is true < 1266682867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if an event has probability 1 _it has happened_ < 1266682871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are wrong < 1266682872 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1266682906 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if an even has probability 1, every part of the sample space satisfies that event < 1266682907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(x)=1 -> P(not x)=0 < 1266682912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: NO! < 1266682916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is frequentist statistics < 1266682922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're talking _bayesian_ statistics < 1266682935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: this leads easily to a contradiction if you have uncountably many alternatives < 1266682958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_probability < 1266682958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_probability < 1266682963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability_interpretations < 1266682968 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so this is something to do with aleph_1 (or more) < 1266682970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Bayesian rulez frequentist droolz, also) < 1266682973 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncountable sample space < 1266682976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no < 1266682983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're not talking frequentist statistics dammit :) < 1266683007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION only talks kolmogorov probability, really < 1266683028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bostrom is (almost certainly; I haven't read it directly, but it's very unlikely he isn't) a bayesian < 1266683036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously he's talking nonsense per frequentist statistics < 1266683058 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when he says the universe is infinite, which infinity does he mean? < 1266683062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266683069 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it not matter? < 1266683073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're focusing on the most irrelevant detail of a thought experiment < 1266683087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that if the universe doesn't have bounds on space, P(every possible brain exists)=1 < 1266683097 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hey I don't know why it's irrelevant, the argument just sounds completely ridiculous to me and I'm trying to understand why not < 1266683101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore we assume that this is true, and use this as a thought experiment to show why Unification is nonsensical < 1266683132 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't agree with the derivation of P(every possible brain exists)=1 < 1266683149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that we're at a roadblock here < 1266683152 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose in a 1mx1mx1m cube there is 0.1% chance of it happening < 1266683157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go read everything, I dunno, Eliezer Yudkowsky's written on bayesian statistics < 1266683160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then come back < 1266683162 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is countably infinite of these blocks < 1266683173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but space isn't divided into blocks < 1266683178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then clearly there is a 100% chance of it having already happened. < 1266683180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266683187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how do you derive that? < 1266683201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the chance of there being some x*y*z region of space, and all adjacent x*y*z regions being identical, recursively < 1266683207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now *that's* low < 1266683219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now extend that to infinite space... < 1266683221 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why does it matter if space is in blocks or not? < 1266683221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it has probability 0 < 1266683228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: because it invalidates your argument < 1266683230 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266683237 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, isn't that what you want? < 1266683256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I don't want people to have invalid arguments; I want them, and me, to be right about everything < 1266683266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you make an invalid argument I will tell you why it is wrong in the hopes that you will fix your argument < 1266683270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or accept the opposite < 1266683277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: hi < 1266683285 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so okay, space isn't divided into 1mx1mx1m blocks < 1266683286 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266683295 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does it mean 'space is infinite'? < 1266683311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266683317 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that. < 1266683319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: imo (not bothering to read the actual argument) you assume independence of blocks that are too far away to interact. then countable infinitely many each with 0.1% chance does give probability 1 of at at least one (in fact, infinitely many) hitting that 0.1% chance < 1266683326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no bounds on the valid values of x,y,z in an (x,y,z) coordinate < 1266683326 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that's a nonsense statement though < 1266683327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: happy? < 1266683340 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if so then I dont see why we can't divide space up into blocks < 1266683345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can < 1266683348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: What's nonsense about space being an infinite 3-space? < 1266683348 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay lets do that < 1266683349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can't postulate their inherency < 1266683356 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1266683365 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are saying there might be some dependent probability between them < 1266683398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when he says there is a nonzero probability, I wonder if he means a finite probability or an infintesimal one < 1266683398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your classification of space into blocks will be purely arbitrary is what I am saying < 1266683405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can only use them as notational shorthand < 1266683409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as part of an argument itself < 1266683413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: finite < 1266683425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonzero probability of x = P(x)>0 < 1266683447 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so lets assume the universe is divisible into countably many 1m^3 blocks, and each one has a proability 0.1% of creating a human brain < 1266683461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :creating? < 1266683461 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in two of these blocks there is what? 0.2% probability? < 1266683464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :space doesn't "create" anything < 1266683471 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Moreover, there are many local stochastic processes, each one of which has a non- < 1266683475 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zero probability of resulting in the creation of a human brain in any particular < 1266683478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266683478 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible state.2" < 1266683480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PROCESSes < 1266683481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not space < 1266683498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: just a question < 1266683504 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay lets cut space into countably many cells, each of which one of these processess are happening < 1266683504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you even know what bayesian probability is? < 1266683512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not... we cannot possibly have this conversation < 1266683515 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in two of these blocks there is 0.02% probability? < 1266683549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if we have a million blocks there is 1000000x0.1% probability (which is greater than 1!) < 1266683560 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if we have countably infinite there is a divergent probability < 1266683564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes%27_theorem anyway < 1266683574 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this guys argument is basically nonsense, agreed? < 1266683576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it, learn, *then* come back < 1266683583 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know bayes theorem alise < 1266683591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no, I am almost certain you have no idea about how bayesian probability works < 1266683595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you really need to assume independence of the blocks to do a meaningful calculation here, imo < 1266683598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not agree < 1266683614 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I will admit I got Yudkowskis breast cancer experiment wrong < 1266683622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case you take 1 - (1-0.02%)^n < 1266683626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop spelling his name wrong < 1266683635 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1266683641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1266683683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i fucking hate zooko's triangle!! < 1266683685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want my free lunch < 1266683696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you don't _sum_ probabilities unless they are mutually exclusive events < 1266683697 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266683724 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan I was assuming they are mutually exclusive, that seems to be in line with the idea of a 'local' event < 1266683751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: mutually exclusive means it cannot happen in two blocks simultaneously. that seems nonsense. < 1266683759 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266683763 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant independent sorry < 1266683776 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: in which case summing is even more wrong :D < 1266683787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in which case you take 1 - (1-0.02%)^n < 1266683816 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, 0.1% there < 1266683892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish there was a mathematical hierarchy for things like sets and lists like there are for numbers < 1266683895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monoids, rings, etc etc etc < 1266683899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :collections, sequences, etc etc etc < 1266683900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION also sees absolutely no reason to bother with frequentist vs. bayesian distinctions for this argument < 1266683912 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so if we have blocks A and B, then for it to happen in A only: 0.1% * (1-0.1%) (same for B only), and for it to happen in A and B it's 0.1%^2, so the chance of it happening in at least one is 2(0.1%)(1-0.1%)+(0.1%)^2 < 1266683920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it is the reasoned language designer must come up with his own hierarchy :( < 1266683936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, i was mentioning it /in case it came up/ because if it does it will be bayesian statistics being used < 1266683946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266684020 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay maybe this would work better if I shut up an alise explains the paragaph? please :) < 1266684021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: which conveniently is easier to calculate by multiplying the probabilities of it _not_ happening in either < 1266684037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I wouldn't know how to explain it; I can understand it but not serialise my understanding function. < 1266684049 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise so it's bullshit < 1266684050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially as I'm not sure exactly what you don't get. I'll leave the dirty work to oerjan. :) < 1266684056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: That does not follow; you are being irrational. < 1266684071 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this pretending to be a rationalist thing is kind of lame < 1266684094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because we were talking about statistics and because I am saying you are being irrational, I am some sort of fake imposter rationalist! < 1266684099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: now if we have n blocks, the chance of it happening in none is (1-0.1%)^n, which -> 0 when n -> infinity < 1266684100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yawn. < 1266684124 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan how do you derive that formual though < 1266684140 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say the chance of it happening in one block is p, < 1266684142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the definition of independence in probability theory < 1266684144 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then chance of not happening is 1-p < 1266684155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the chance of not happening in both blocks is (1-p)^2 < 1266684163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(A and B) = P(A)*P(B) < 1266684171 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that works out nicely, < 1266684183 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but let us consider, the chance of it happening in two blocks = 2p < 1266684187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that false? < 1266684206 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, can I use the divergence of that (when the number of blocks reaches infinity) to show this statement is bogus < 1266684228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's false because you can only sum exclusive events < 1266684265 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that alise, Miss Piggy argument is better when you read alise as being voiced by kermit the frog < 1266684276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1266684290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(A or B) = P(A) + P(B) - P(A and B), if P(A and B) != 0 then it's not just the sum of each < 1266684315 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266684318 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but say, p = 0.1 < 1266684327 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1266684329 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay yeah < 1266684342 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so right the probability is 1! < 1266684378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1266684379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266684384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1266684387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we are all happy! < 1266684410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266684428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I want to be able to do things like "foo : card empty = 0" (card=cardinality) < 1266684434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I need = to return a type < 1266684437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I need True/False to be types < 1266684451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I need Bool be a type whose values are the type True and the type False < 1266684465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and True to be a type with one value, refl or whatever < 1266684470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and False to be a type with no values, i.e. Void < 1266684480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which also lets us use False as the constructivist _|_ < 1266684493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. (p, Not p) -> False < 1266684510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, hey < 1266684516 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does probability one mean? < 1266684516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you constructively prove that False -> a? < 1266684523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: that the probability of it not happening is zero < 1266684530 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alsie that's the induction scheme for the empty type < 1266684547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a value of False it's bottom but that doesn't mean you can treat it as an a < 1266684550 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise no what does it mean < 1266684551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because `data False`) < 1266684557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well it means exactly that < 1266684562 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1266684574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you give him a boring, actually useful explanation < 1266684575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: calculating with probabilities is easy, understanding what they mean is i guess where you need to get into that interpretation stuff < 1266684578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(bayesian this time since it /does/ matter) < 1266684602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: except i hate that stuff myself... :D < 1266684615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define that stuff < 1266684625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that interpretation stuff" < 1266684629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1. Frequentists talk about probabilities only when dealing with experiments that are random and well-defined. The probability of a random event denotes the relative frequency of occurrence of an experiment's outcome, when repeating the experiment. Frequentists consider probability to be the relative frequency "in the long run" of outcomes.[1] < 1266684630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2. Bayesians, however, assign probabilities to any statement whatsoever, even when no random process is involved. Probability, for a Bayesian, is a way to represent an individual's degree of belief in a statement, given the evidence. < 1266684640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you probably think of #1 as the intuitive meaning of probability thus your confusion < 1266684645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but bostrom as a bayesian means #2 < 1266684656 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, my confusion what that I didn't know how to add probalities :| < 1266684661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[An impossible event has a probability of 0, and a certain event has a probability of 1. However, the converses are not always true: probability 0 events are not always impossible, nor probability 1 events certain. The rather subtle distinction between "certain" and "probability 1" is treated at greater length in the article on "almost surely".]] < 1266684663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely < 1266684676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: your confusion because you thought prob = 1 = has happened < 1266684683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : can you constructively prove that False -> a? <-- is an axiom i think < 1266684687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically though just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely < 1266684704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Haskell is a constructivist logic, right, if you make sure never to use _|_? < 1266684717 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to treat haskel as a logic is a mistake < 1266684717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't do `data False` and then write a `False -> a` in Haskell, at least < 1266684720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1266684728 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pretend haskell lets you do < 1266684734 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic f = case f of {} < 1266684735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you require a proof of totality in some other lang, and remove undefined and unsafePerformIO and unsafeCoerce and the FFI < 1266684747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it should be a constructivist logic I think < 1266684749 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is actually valid in Coq < 1266684755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so < 1266684764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway my main point is < 1266684787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thetype True = {refl:True} < 1266684790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thetype False = {} < 1266684791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thetype Bool = {True:*, False:*} < 1266684798 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I:True is used in Coq < 1266684800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this make sense? and is it a good idea? < 1266684801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it a pitfall < 1266684802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: avoiding full recursion is more important i should think < 1266684806 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bool doesn't make sense < 1266684811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: thus the requirement of a proof of totality < 1266684814 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well you need that to construct _|_ of course) < 1266684826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: hmm are you sure? < 1266684834 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me it doesn't make sense! < 1266684836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have unions you can't say that a value is of only one type < 1266684847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not a stretch to have True be both a * and a Bool < 1266684855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just means that < 1266684857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bool is-a-subset-of * < 1266684861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's nothing wrong with that! < 1266684872 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe yeah I suppose you could make that work.......... < 1266684881 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit scary though < 1266684893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it means we can stop doing everything at both value and type level every time we want to get our dependent shizzit on < 1266684904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah but I want * to be a Collection anyway :-) < 1266684927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'm sort of already in the direction of "hey these are actually quite ... tangible" < 1266685004 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probability 1 only means surely in the case of a finite space? < 1266685017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: countable works too < 1266685026 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1266685040 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's sort about aleph_1 < 1266685043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probabilities are lebesgue measures, so countably additive < 1266685071 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/lebesgue measures/measures/ < 1266685103 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(invented by lebesgue, in any case) < 1266685118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and adapted to probabilities by kolmogorov, iirc) < 1266685127 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266685154 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probability 1 doesn't really tell you anything then :| < 1266685165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because who knows which infinite we have < 1266685199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well you can pretend it means surely, as long as you only test countably many cases < 1266685225 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha my mistake from earlier was soooo stupid < 1266685244 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you flip a coin twice it doesn't mean you will have seen heads and tails < 1266685253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for brains, well assuming you have some limited precision, it seems like there would be only finitely many possibilities that could fit into a 1m^3 cube < 1266685324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my intuition on that anyway - the distinction between probability 1 and surely is only needed because of uncountability stuff < 1266685362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so _in practice_ it means surely < 1266685364 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay! < 1266685373 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266685382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in practice?? what about this situation < 1266685401 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are assuming the universe to be divisible into countably many blocks? < 1266685424 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's any evidence for that rather than uncountable < 1266685439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well you could just take a countable subset of them... < 1266685463 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but that wouldn't cover the whole universe < 1266685488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, but you need only to get all your brains into part of it to prove they exist :D < 1266685489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait this is paradoxical < 1266685498 0 :addicted!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Konversation terminated! < 1266685509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs to be a random subset, i guess < 1266685509 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you have it certinaly happening in a countable subset, but we're not sure if it will in an uncountable one.. < 1266685574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course if it's not random, everything's out the window anyway, just pick a subset that does _not_ include all possible brains (say, because you explicitly look for only one type) < 1266685604 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blegh! now I know how finitists feel! < 1266685610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266685618 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to say "but you can't apply this probability argument to INFINTE SPACE" < 1266685628 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't want to give up on understand this either < 1266685662 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean really this argument can prove anything has probability 1... < 1266685695 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could argue in the same way there is a guy who /is capable of and is right now/ about to tell me something through some kind of interstellar mobile phone < 1266685704 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov's_zero-one_law < 1266685705 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this it doesn't happen... < 1266685722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you can't < 1266685746 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be because the universe isn't actually infinite. < 1266685749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could prove that in an infinite universe there is probability 1 that there is a planet exactly like earth somewhere except where that is happening < 1266685768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're almost certainly not on that earth, and the universe might not even be infinite. < 1266685770 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deschutron yeah, but for this argument he is assuming it is infinite (which infinity?) < 1266685773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's still only probability-1 < 1266685775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not _does_ exist < 1266685801 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise why can't I show there's someone who is about to phone ME? why do they have to be phoning someone else < 1266685808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, do set theorists have a symbol for the set of all sets? or has russell scarred them away from that < 1266685816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another place where type and set theory clash :P < 1266685819 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that person is in another block < 1266685833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: they could phone you if you had an interstellar phone that somehow did FT < 1266685835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*FTL < 1266685841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since it's about *the size of space* < 1266685843 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so maybe FTL is impossible < 1266685845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't apply it to earth < 1266685848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very finite, and small < 1266685867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is evidence against FLT :P < 1266685870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point is that there is probability one that ****somewhere**** in space there is a copy of this planet except with that guy < 1266685875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about to phone that earth's you < 1266685895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish there was a nice symbol for the holes in mixfix operators < 1266685916 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an infinite universe, there would be copies of both versions - you being phoned and you not being phoned. < 1266685930 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as the phoning follows the laws of physics :P < 1266686002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not there would be < 1266686006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is probability 1 that there would be < 1266686007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also dammit < 1266686010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really want some sugar for < 1266686021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a:t)->(b:t)->(c:t)->...->foo < 1266686025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: a bullet? < 1266686028 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives alise a bowl of sugar < 1266686033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like for types, forall a b c. is that for t=Type < 1266686040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I should just generalise forall < 1266686042 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^bar : t^bar -> foo < 1266686051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let you do forall (a:somethingotherthanType) < 1266686053 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vector notation like in physics < 1266686058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (a:t) (b:t) (c:t). < 1266686064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact forall a implies an implicit argument < 1266686069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I'm fine with it's equivalent < 1266686077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (a b c : t). < 1266686085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266686093 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: actually that link above was maybe not quite what i thought it was, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers#Strong_law is closer < 1266686128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assoc : (a:m) → (b:m) → (c:m) → (a·b)·c = a·(b·c) < 1266686129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :becomes < 1266686158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assoc : ∀a b c : m. (a·b)·c = a·(b·c) < 1266686161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is equiv. to < 1266686170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assoc : {a:m} → {b:m} → {c:m} → (a·b)·c = a·(b·c) < 1266686182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess the a/b/c will be inferred to be 0 < 1266686188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since from inside monoid that's the only m you know exists < 1266686189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266686195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also know that 00 exists :P < 1266686202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1266686207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266686209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: maybe I should just let you do < 1266686217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a, b, c : m) -> ... < 1266686224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just feels weird to have them all on one side of a -> so to speak < 1266686225 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats the poit of the commas? < 1266686227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it nests rightwards < 1266686235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: otherwise it's pattern matching :P < 1266686237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like writing < 1266686240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let a b c = m < 1266686246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :defines a function a < 1266686259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you can do (Just a : Maybe) -> ... < 1266686289 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266686324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that (a,b:t)->s is (a:t)->((b:t)->s) < 1266686331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas it looks like something confined to the LHS < 1266686349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem with the forall one is that they become implicit arguments, which usually isn't desired < 1266686362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you only really use this for propositiosn < 1266686367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*propositions < 1266686385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't say () : (_, _ : m) -> m < 1266686387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's just ridiculous < 1266686391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i dunno < 1266686430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20030729T014400Z.html < 1266686431 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :m -> m -> m < 1266686445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently agda uses (a:t)(b:s)->r < 1266686447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266686448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coq < 1266686449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not agda < 1266686453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what it translates to though < 1266686535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not valid < 1266686554 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(f:Morphism)(g:Morphism)->(Range g)=(Domain f)->Morphism < 1266686558 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has to be rewritten as < 1266686561 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall (f:Morphism)(g:Morphism),(Range g)=(Domain f)->Morphism < 1266686563 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be accepted < 1266686578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it is a post from 2003 < 1266686581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe it was valid then < 1266686589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so coq adopts my notation too < 1266686596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall that is < 1266686602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just simplify it to let you name the type only once < 1266686621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and uses a comma to separate forall and the rhs, I like that < 1266686756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266686765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturals and rings and stuff can be monoids under addition /or/ multiplication < 1266686785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does this mean I shouldn't name the identity and thingy functions 0 and *? :( < 1266686799 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :additiveMonoid < 1266686802 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266686816 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use e and & < 1266686816 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e&e = e < 1266686824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266686825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266686833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be so orgasmically awesome to be using monoids every time you multiply < 1266686849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1266686852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Aliselang: You *do* need to know category theory to get things done in THIS one!" < 1266686858 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The date on this thing has to be wron < 1266686860 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wrong < 1266686872 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, time < 1266686918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also it wouldn't be the type of monoid that changes < 1266686920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just two different instances :) < 1266686930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says you can't have two values of type Monoid ZZ < 1266687042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but damn < 1266687049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really was all COOL SHIT about calling 'em 0 and * < 1266687053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel so humbled < 1266687079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am ensaddened < 1266687110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um you know 0 goes with + and 1 with *, usually... < 1266687152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1266687158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I was literally going to have: < 1266687188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monoid : Type -> Type < 1266687188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monoid a = { < 1266687188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0 : a < 1266687188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (*) : a -> a -> a < 1266687188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assoc : forall (a:m) (b:m) (c:m), (a*b)*c = a*(b*c) < 1266687189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ...the identity element property that I can't have here because it leads to saying 0*x=x... < 1266687191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1266687212 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266687216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1266687283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266687292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm < 1266687293 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moniod m (&) e = Semigroup m (&) /\ Identity m (&) e ? < 1266687296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'm totally wrong and confused < 1266687304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because something is going wrong. in my brain. < 1266687305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: lol < 1266687313 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olol :( < 1266687343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266687345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hey don't have a stroke, now < 1266687347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should have a semigroup < 1266687356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...also i need some sort of sugar for defining a bunch of "instances" < 1266687368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you'll have like 50 instance values of a few lines each < 1266687376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to get + - and * :P < 1266687401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh great, and I need magmas too if I really want to get down 'n dirty < 1266687408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kill me now < 1266687438 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is even worse < 1266687446 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem like a linear heirarchy... < 1266687453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magma : Set -> Set < 1266687453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magma a = { < 1266687454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : () : a -> a -> a < 1266687454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1266687462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most useful typeclasswhatever ever? < 1266687464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! < 1266687465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about < 1266687472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact you know what? < 1266687477 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magma a (•) = True < 1266687481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Magma a) is equivalent to (a -> a -> a) < 1266687493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: lol you've adopted my set/type idea < 1266687510 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have I !! < 1266687515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266687518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set = a -> Bool < 1266687546 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aahaha < 1266687548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, since Magma a ≡ (a -> a -> a), I don't need it. < 1266687552 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yo udo ! < 1266687558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the most, I need Magma = a -> a -> a < 1266687562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I don't. < 1266687570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ x : t } ≡ t < 1266687585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magma a = { () : a -> a -> a } < 1266687595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∴ Magma a ≡ a -> a -> a < 1266687620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So at the most, I need Magma a = a -> a -> a; a simple alias. But I think it is easier just to write a -> a -> a. < 1266687719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: So why do I need Magma? < 1266687758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say... < 1266687764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I run into problems using = for my relationships like associativity. < 1266687771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, I require a definition of equality for that set. < 1266687777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should instead use ≡, I think. < 1266687795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≡ : a -> a -> IsEquivalent a a < 1266687801 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1266687804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically (a ≡ b) is a proof that a and b have identical semantics < 1266687809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(misspiggy: is this well defined?) < 1266687820 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a page where I can see what it's like to visit an SSL website with a revoked certificate? < 1266687837 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :≡ tends to be used for definitions, no? < 1266687868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't use it for definitions, so < 1266687870 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := is when you apply not just definitions, but also properties and axioms < 1266687873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it does mean "is equivalent to" < 1266687887 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe semantics proofs has it otherwise < 1266687901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to think of a nice, non-* binary op name for the semigroup operation < 1266688126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semigroup : Set -> Set < 1266688126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semigroup a = { < 1266688127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (something) : a -> a -> a < 1266688127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : assoc : forall (x:a) (y:a) (z:a), (xy)z === x(yz) < 1266688127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1266688152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set theory is hotttt < 1266688260 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not!!!!!!!!! < 1266688264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY NOT < 1266688274 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_sheaf < 1266688291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with perversity < 1266688358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i want all these lovely proofy things but i want partiality :( is there a therapy group for me < 1266688455 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266688470 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you do need therapy < 1266688473 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least you can admit that.. < 1266688485 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266688493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_1 in agda is Set->Set right? < 1266688500 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no don't think so < 1266688502 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set : Set1 < 1266688506 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266688506 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set1 : Set2 < 1266688513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266688524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Set_n is "set of {sets*n+1}" < 1266688526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set : set of sets < 1266688529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set1 : Set of (set of sets) < 1266688536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Semigroup : Set1 means that Semigroup is a set of sets < 1266688543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (a -> Bool) -> Bool < 1266688556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Semigroup a means "is the set 'a' a Semigroup?" < 1266688568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if only I understood the definition :) < 1266688619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1266688654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does {Semigroup a} -> mean "a set 'a' that is a semigroup"? < 1266688664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then Semigroup a :: Set < 1266688673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then is the resulting set a, or the semigroup stuff? < 1266688675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is confusing < 1266688829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266688837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: look at agda's stdlib lib/Algebra.agda < 1266688853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever there's controversy < 1266688854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just like < 1266688856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh we'll put both in < 1266688860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SemiringWithoutAnnihilatingZero < 1266688933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it strange how many types Agda folk like to hide their things behind < 1266688936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _∙_ : Op₂ Carrier < 1266688946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this better than _∙_ : Carrier -> Carrier -> Carrier? < 1266688962 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good question < 1266688964 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1266688981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's so that you repeat less and have "more semantic" types < 1266688984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I just find it obscures the meaning < 1266688997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, < 1266688999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _≈_ : Rel Carrier zero < 1266689001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is so a copout < 1266689010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just including "some sort of kinda equal thing that you want to be for the associativity" < 1266689022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a ≡ b ftw < 1266689040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_≡_ : a -> b -> Bool < 1266689044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except you use it as a type, obviously) < 1266689053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just exploiting that Bool is True-or-False < 1266689062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we use ≡ to prove two expressions equivalent < 1266689089 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with < 1266689105 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Identity : forall T : *, T -> T -> * < 1266689122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the result? < 1266689128 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reflexivity : forall (T : *) (t : T), Identity T t t < 1266689151 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly if a and b have the same normal form, then reflexivity _ a : Identity _ a b < 1266689203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, agda calls the identity element of a monoid ε < 1266689204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good choice < 1266689272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A monoid whose operation is commutative is called a commutative monoid (or, less commonly, an abelian monoid). < 1266689272 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's wrong with e < 1266689277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, I've only ever heard abelian monoid < 1266689285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well e is just an approximation of \epsilon used because we can't type e :P < 1266689296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, because naming a parameter e is... not uncommon < 1266689298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we use e in math-on-paper :[ < 1266689311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it'd be nice to still be able to get at monoid identity while doing so < 1266689319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, MissPiggy, what is the result of Identity? < 1266689322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the * in -> * < 1266689357 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is Set < 1266689368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266689369 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A : * means A is a type < 1266689370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what is its _value_ < 1266689377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what set is it for some T < 1266689377 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is in normal form < 1266689381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the two values < 1266689389 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Identity T t t : * < 1266689394 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 : Nat : * < 1266689405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Identity Nat 3 2 : * < 1266689411 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266689418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is its use? < 1266689422 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??? < 1266689426 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's whats use < 1266689429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess as part as "reflexivity : forall (T : *) (t : T), Identity T t t" < 1266689433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*as part of < 1266689436 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the constructor < 1266689521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1266689524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unifiable : Set → Set < 1266689524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unifiable a = { < 1266689524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _=_ : a → a → Bool < 1266689524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : leibniz : ∀(f:a→b) (x:a) (y:a). x = y → f x = f y < 1266689524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1266689527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too far? < 1266689544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is that you could have something with multiple internal representations that have different values, _but you don't expose the constructors_ < 1266689547 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1266689550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so from outside the module you can prove leibniz < 1266689558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but from inside, where you define the Unifiable instance, you cannot < 1266689566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can make it Unifiable < 1266689569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only from inside a different module :) < 1266689580 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like quotients < 1266689581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, proving it may be *spectacularly* hard for some things, I expect < 1266689594 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can divide a type by an equivalence relation to make a 'smaller' type < 1266689611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like howso < 1266689676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey I just had a thought < 1266689687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :often in my dependent musings I wish to write something like < 1266689713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimise : (a:ProgramInSomeLang) -> ((b:ProgramInSomeLang), a `hasTheSameSemanticsAs` b) < 1266689720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you need to unpack the tuple and all and it's woeful to use < 1266689720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BUT < 1266689722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do < 1266689731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(substituting Prog and `equiv` for those verbose names) < 1266689741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :optimise : (a:Prog) -> {a `equiv` b} -> (b:Prog) < 1266689751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. force the *caller* to prove that the optimisation preserves semantics < 1266689753 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backwards binding!! < 1266689757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's implicit You Don't Have To Worry About It < 1266689761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is that a yay or a yikes !! < 1266689782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proving something about the result of a function before you can get to it... hehehe < 1266689843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets a silly idea of having Axiom be a type < 1266689872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom : *; Axiom = { foo : *, bar : foo } < 1266689881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except you can make non-axiomatic foo/bar pairs with it < 1266689882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266689889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so clearly we need some way to determine whether something is axiomatic :P < 1266689917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom : *; Axiom = { prop : *, axiomatic : isAxiomatic prop } < 1266689981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so is backwards binding nice or evil or sth? < 1266689988 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOTH < 1266690001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: how's it evil? < 1266690005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what horrible things does it let you do < 1266690025 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know it's just hard < 1266690040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to impl? < 1266690049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slow to typecheck or sth? < 1266690066 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop writing sth :/ < 1266690148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1266690149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old habit < 1266690187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cries and weeps < 1266690221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the sth time, stop writing sth < 1266690232 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lLOL < 1266690289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so is it < 1266690342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Identity : (a:*) -> a -> a -> * where reflexivity : forall (x:a). Identity a x x < 1266690352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266690362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reflexivity : Identity NN 3 3 < 1266690366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not reflexivity : Identity NN 3 2 < 1266690414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess what I'd want then is something that transforms that into the set True or False so I can prove it like any other true/false thing in my lang < 1266690479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also in your "forall (x:a)" is that basically an implicit argument < 1266690482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is I think it iiiiiiis :P < 1266690483 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1266690489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh what < 1266690494 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall {x:a}, is implicit < 1266690499 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but forall (x:a), is not < 1266690499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266690505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it can be implicit < 1266690511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't see why it shouldn't be < 1266690514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _≡_ : {a:Set} → a → a → Set where < 1266690514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : reflexivity : {x:a} → x ≡ x < 1266690531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(substitute another symbol for \equiv if you want, but you get the idea) < 1266690534 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah sure make it implicit if you want that's JUST SYNAX < 1266690534 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SYNTAX* < 1266690538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266690544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way your proof if inferrable can just be "reflexivity" I think < 1266690551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266690554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is refl = reflexivity? < 1266690558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually know why refl is called refl < 1266690563 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refl-exivity < 1266690565 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDD < 1266690566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266690569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I mean < 1266690573 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's expressing that x = x (forall x) < 1266690575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people seem to use the name refl a lot in different types < 1266690583 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which implies symmetry and transitivity) < 1266690583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are they all just specific instances of this? < 1266690594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I'm used to thinking of implicit arguments as being filled in with refl. < 1266690606 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well I don't know which examples you mean -- I haven't seen peopl ues refl much < 1266690637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1266690640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotient_set < 1266690641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266690641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have < 1266690661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Frac : * where Over : Z -> Z -> Frac < 1266690662 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266690681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the equivalence class of (Over 1 2) in Frac is < 1266690692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{Over 1 2, Over 2 4, Over 3 6, ...} < 1266690692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1266690714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to make the rationals we do < 1266690728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a,b) ~ (c,d) = (a*d == b*c) < 1266690736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then use that ~ on Frac < 1266690738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get the rationals? < 1266690919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266690920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _≡_ : {a:Set} → a → a → Set where < 1266690920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : refl : {x:a} → x ≡ x < 1266690925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is correct, then < 1266690931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although you'll probably bitch about the symbol I used :)) < 1266690938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope at least that < 1266690940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unifiable : Set → Set < 1266690940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unifiable a = { < 1266690941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _=_ : a → a → Bool < 1266690941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : leibniz : ∀(b:Set) (f:a→b) (x:a) (y:a). x = y → f x = f y < 1266690941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1266690943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is unobjectionable enough to you < 1266691054 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, fried blood <3 < 1266691076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blech < 1266691080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are no longer friends < 1266691120 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266691133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coming up with a syntax for record types is hard < 1266691148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have < 1266691149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :record Unifiable : Set → Set where < 1266691149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _=_ : a → a → Bool < 1266691149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : leibniz : ∀(b:Set) (f:a→b) (x:a) (y:a). x = y → f x = f y < 1266691159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then 1. it's confusing alongside the GADT syntax < 1266691166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. you never specify that a is your agument! < 1266691168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*argument < 1266691188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally i should probably find another name for Leibniz's law rather than implying that Leibniz was literally a proof < 1266691292 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were still on my topic and constructing proofs about blood pudding, but then I started actually reading :) < 1266691386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DD < 1266691411 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1266691554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know I prefer it when MissPiggy is angry at me and tells me what i should be doing instead < 1266691579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266691587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if I want < 1266691588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _=_ : a → a → Bool < 1266691588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : leibniz : ∀(b:Set) (f:a→b) (x:a) (y:a). x = y → f x = f y < 1266691602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from inside something with a non-identical constructor equality thingybob that nevertheless satisfies that outside of the module < 1266691612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I need to actually have a notion of "modules" in the type system < 1266691617 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a vampire, alise does not approve of frying blood before eating < 1266691623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that leibniz can express the privateness of it or something < 1266691631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that we can say "outside the module, (leibniz's law)" < 1266691670 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: as a norwegian, do you approve? < 1266691687 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266691696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i haven't had it in a long time < 1266691802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i have a feeling this thing is going to end up with me having a type-safe model of the language itself, and the logical system its type system isomorphs to, inside the language/type system < 1266691821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and making proofs by proving that it's true inside that model, and then lifting it out < 1266691823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1266691865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that tend to risk hitting godel's theorem < 1266691886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, proving (P in this system) should be identical to proving P, shouldn't it? < 1266691888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(having a model of the whole means the whole is consistent) < 1266691894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1266691896 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's loeb? no < 1266691898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the model could depend on the inconsistent parts < 1266691902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266691970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean means the whole can be proven consistent < 1266691980 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well maybe not < 1266692009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course the issue there is that you need an inconsistent system < 1266692011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't so good. < 1266692088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm you could have x ≊ y = (reduce x) = (reduce y) < 1266692092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except I guess you might not have = < 1266692121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if using = for unification /and/ definition will get confusing < 1266692168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey can't you have _|_ with codata? < 1266692171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like having co_|_ or something < 1266692180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly not < 1266692388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you always must be able to unpack one more constructor in finite time < 1266692392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiuc < 1266692430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn :) < 1266692477 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can of course have fix Later < 1266692510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fakeBottom = Later fakeBottom < 1266692519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266692523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just the partiality monad < 1266692528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266692530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which i think gives turing completeness right?) < 1266692544 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1266692549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem is you have a lot of things which /are/ partial but the compiler can't infer to be so < 1266692560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you should be able to manually specify a halting proof < 1266692630 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266692641 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1266692646 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why hello thar oklopol < 1266692668 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266692819 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266692835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _≡_ : {a:Set} → a → a → Set where < 1266692835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : refl : {x:a} → x ≡ x < 1266692835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is pretty damn awesome though < 1266692838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why didn't I think of that < 1266692870 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just showed you that :| < 1266692873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know < 1266692878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus "why didn't I think of that" < 1266692889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: oh ho, I've just realised why agda repeats all the fields in each iteration of more advanced set type thing < 1266692903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's inverted; instead of depending on the parent, it contains the parent constructed from the fields < 1266692914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pro: you only need to instantiate the topmost one < 1266692941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :con: if there are two ones that apply (e.g. a split in the hierarchy) you have to type some declarations as aliases for the other ones; makes the definitions of the thingies more verbose in the stdlib < 1266692970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, argh, I should really figure out quotients and carriers; both agda and epigram are all up wit dem and I don't get it yet < 1266692994 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266692995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each Set universe (and so far there is one, inconsistently containing itself, but later we shall have some sort of hierarchy) < 1266692997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't we just have < 1266693026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set : (n:Nat) -> Setѡ < 1266693030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where Setѡ is some other thing < 1266693033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait it's actually just < 1266693039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set : (n:Nat) -> Set (n+1) < 1266693046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely that's the simplest way < 1266693051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set 0 is * < 1266693056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set 0 : Set 1 < 1266693057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so forth < 1266693140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, scarf is still here < 1266693160 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266693171 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :busy helping with a community nethack game, sorry < 1266693650 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266694238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natInduction : (f:Nat→Bool) → f 0 → (∀(n:Nat), f n → f (succ n)) → (∀(n:Nat), f n) < 1266694238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1266694294 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well?? < 1266694299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well what? < 1266694305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just writing things because I felt like it < 1266694319 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it into bool instead of into *? < 1266694334 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other thing is you have not --> forall n, P n at the end < 1266694413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well because I like having a type that lets me express "some true or false proposition to be proved" < 1266694419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is needlessly general < 1266694455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing with induction into * is you can use it to prove stuff or to do recursive programs < 1266694475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg really? < 1266694476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266694480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(re: recursive) < 1266694545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1266694545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and the other thing is you have not --> forall n, P n at the end < 1266694547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see what you mean < 1266694572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also wait, using it to write recursive programs? that means that we have a (Nat -> Set) at value-time < 1266694579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would such a function be useful at value-time? < 1266694598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... the f 0 argument should be implicit, but should the inductive step be? < 1266694637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so what value does natInduction have to be a recursive control structure? < 1266694674 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.2 :: www.regroup-esports.com ) < 1266694712 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1266694713 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natInduction : (f:Nat→Bool) → f 0 → (∀(n:Nat), f n → f (succ n)) → (∀(n:Nat), f n) < 1266694716 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be < 1266694719 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natInduction : (f:Nat→Bool) → f 0 → (∀(n:Nat), f n → f (succ n)) → (∀(n:Nat), f n) -> forall n, f n < 1266694733 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266694735 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natInduction : (f:Nat→Bool) → f 0 → (∀(n:Nat), f n → f (succ n)) → (∀(n:Nat)) -> forall n, f n < 1266694737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...lol < 1266694742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(∀(n:Nat), f n) -> forall n, f n < 1266694752 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nevermind, now I see it < 1266694753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(∀(n:Nat), f n) -> ∀n, f n < 1266694756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(∀(n:Nat), f n) -> ∀(n:Nat), f n < 1266694761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have that :) < 1266694778 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you could see how awful these unicode symbols look you might forgive me < 1266694859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266694866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natInduction : (f : Nat → Set) → f 0 → (∀(n:Nat). f n → f (succ n)) → (∀(n:Nat). f n) < 1266694866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natInduction _ base _ 0 = base < 1266694866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natInduction f base induct n = induct (natInduction f base induct (pred n)) < 1266694870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I'm not mistaken < 1266694878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think ->Set doesn't make it nicer to use for recursion < 1266695019 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266695166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: am I correct? < 1266695622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol I felt the urge just now for something even more general than typeclass instances < 1266695634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance (tc a) => tc (Foo a) < 1266695668 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woah what is going on there < 1266695674 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird < 1266695789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for instance < 1266695795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance (tc a) => tc (Partial a) < 1266695797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266695802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to morph the return values into Partial too < 1266695803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266695806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poll time < 1266695807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Stream a = Partial (a, Stream a) < 1266695807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1266695813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266695814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*type < 1266695819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Stream a = Partial (a, Stream a) < 1266695820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1266695826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Stream a = (a, Partial (Stream a)) < 1266695874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I prefer the former because you can return Stream a < 1266695876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than Partial a < 1266695884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hd :: Stream a -> Partial a < 1266695884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl :: Stream a -> Stream a < 1266695891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the co-ness of streams is embedded in the stream itself < 1266695911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc you need a newtype irl < 1266696037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was hoping MissPiggy would pop up with some semantic reason for preferring one or the other there :P < 1266696060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1266696063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Stream a = Stream a (Partial (Stream a)) is actually preferable < 1266696068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can do foo <- tl somestream < 1266696153 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1266696155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266696157 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266696158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Stream a = Stream (Partial (a,Stream a)) < 1266696160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives you all those properties < 1266696164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey wait, isn't that a case of Mu? < 1266696408 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266696439 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1266696442 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266696474 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x = Partial (a, x) < 1266696476 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1266696506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtype Stream a = Stream (Partial (a,Stream a)) deriving (Show) < 1266696506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :con :: a -> Stream a -> Partial (Stream a) < 1266696507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :con x xss = return $ Stream (return (x,xss)) < 1266696507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rep :: a -> Partial (Stream a) < 1266696507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rep x = do < 1266696507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : xss <- rep x < 1266696509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : con x xss < 1266696513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rep stack overflows if you try and show it :( < 1266696517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess partial isn't /that/ lazy < 1266696536 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266696543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bad case of the Mu < 1266696556 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Mus < 1266696636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mus Musculus < 1266696676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: here, how does Coq do records? < 1266696681 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i played some poker and had a bad case of the lose < 1266696682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you like Coq, you should evangelise its syntax to me < 1266696728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i just realised something < 1266696740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the race :: Delay a -> Delay a -> a function given in the paper that returns the one that gets to Now first < 1266696749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is basically multitasking < 1266696755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could race proc1 proc2 in an OS < 1266696761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, not very ooh-la-la SMP, but cool < 1266696836 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think records are the same as inductive types but they have named projections (and only one constructor) < 1266696866 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not race :: Delay a -> Delay a -> Delay a ? :) < 1266696877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think that's how it's defined in the paper < 1266696880 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use omegarace to define lfp that's a pretty wild one < 1266696893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1266696919 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266696920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :race :: Delay a -> Delay a -> Delay a < 1266696920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :race (Now a) _ = Now a < 1266696920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :race (Later _) (Now a) = Now a < 1266696920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :race (Later d) (Later d') = Later (race d d') < 1266696928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: oh yeah those types < 1266696943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20030729T014400Z.html < 1266696946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same general syntax as here? < 1266696955 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise the fun thing about Delay is you can define functions that are MORE LAZY than haskell < 1266696961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re delay, yes, I know < 1266696974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my issue with coq's record syntax is that it differs too much from gadt syntax :P < 1266696988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Compose : (f:Morphism)(g:Morphism)->(Range g)=(Domain f)->Morphism < 1266696988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rangeId : (a:Object)(Range (Id a))=a < 1266696991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so caps denotes constructor < 1266696998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lowercase denotes fields on all of those constructors or sth? < 1266697008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else how do you denote type params < 1266697009 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;| < 1266697019 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no lower/upper distinction (thank goodness) < 1266697024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else how do you denote type params < 1266697029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in < 1266697041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monoid = { < 1266697044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :star : blah blah blah < 1266697048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assoc : blah blah blah < 1266697048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1266697051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's the actual monoid type < 1266697054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the type argument a < 1266697061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you have it as a separate field? < 1266697067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case how do you do the equivalent of (Monoid m) => ... < 1266697070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a type sig < 1266697221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it confuses me < 1266697234 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no such thing < 1266697249 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you use the typeclasses extension which is quite new) < 1266697255 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266697265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do you express the same sort of thing? < 1266697276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a. Monoid -> a -> ... isn't allowed, the a in the Monoid might not be the same a < 1266697349 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall a, Monoid a -> a ...? < 1266697349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol agda has postfix ⊥ for its partiality monad < 1266697357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: from whence "Monoid a"? < 1266697369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coq's syntax has the things that would be parameters elsewhere as record fields < 1266697381 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Record Monoid a := mkMonoid { } < 1266697482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, seems the agda folk name their refls type-refl < 1266697493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ≡-refl instead of just refl < 1266697499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well how boring :) < 1266697531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so do you prefer "Data Foo a := { }" to the haskell/agda-esque gadt syntax? < 1266697549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate records :| < 1266697570 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole idea of making a 'record' separate for some arbitrary reason just makes me want to puke my guts out < 1266697583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in my lang it's just syntactic sugar... < 1266697600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because naming every arg in a type sig in a constructor in a data type gets a leetle bit heavy when you're just trying to fucking define monads < 1266697741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :private < 1266697742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : primitive < 1266697742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : primTrustMe : {A : Set}{a b : A} → a ≡ b < 1266697744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda stdlib < 1266697746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reassuring < 1266697762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what does that bit of code do? < 1266697768 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah agda's weird < 1266697777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which bit of code? < 1266697781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: actually it's safe, just scarily named < 1266697782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the bit you pasted < 1266697786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: primTrustMe? < 1266697790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yep < 1266697795 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it's used internally, to do some weird stuff to do with IO and strings.. < 1266697797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do you know what dependent types are? < 1266697800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :propositional equality? < 1266697809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, just don't think about it < 1266697836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, I don't know the details indeed < 1266697847 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster or just ignore me and argue with elise... < 1266697852 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eliser < 1266697856 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::OOO < 1266697861 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just discovered the truth < 1266697862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eliser yewdcohski < 1266697867 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no!! < 1266697871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, yes, it is used internally like that < 1266697874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't explain what it _is_ < 1266697889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but including "TrustMe" in a identifier in any standard library is enough to make me cautious... < 1266697896 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266697901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster, it's used internally, to do some weird stuff to do with IO and strings.. <-- right < 1266697938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and for a language used to prove things it seems just insane < 1266697948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well see that's because you looked at the name and not the type < 1266697953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't look at the type because you don't understand the type < 1266697965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sure, but the name is a bit of a wtf too, isn't it? < 1266697967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"oh no you can prove anything" is not even remotely what it does < 1266697969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, thus why i pasted it < 1266697983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but inquiry beyond that involves knowledge of the stuff used within :P < 1266697986 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266697993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and is that bit wtfy too? < 1266698024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me just quote a snippet of Agda's stdlib for you, and you can decide whether you really want to know more about this thing. < 1266698024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-resp-≈ : IsEquivalence _≈_ → _≤_ Respects₂ _≈_ → _<_ Respects₂ _≈_ < 1266698025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-resp-≈ eq ≤-resp-≈ = < 1266698025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (λ {x y' y} y'≈y x B -> C < 1266698208 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x < y = ... < 1266698211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's only because that bit of code is very ugly < 1266698211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just said it didn't look nice < 1266698213 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no just listen to me I am explaining < 1266698214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because, well, it's stdlib code < 1266698225 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is how you define infix operators < 1266698227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually _ for multifix is very elegant < 1266698233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if_then_else_ : Bool -> a -> a -> a < 1266698235 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can use _<_ to denote the identifier < 1266698236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_+_ < 1266698238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_?_:_ < 1266698243 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of having to write \x y -> x < y < 1266698244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1266698269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still isn't aesthetically nice. which is all I claimed. I didn't say anything about the underlying concepts or whatever (I don't know of them) < 1266698278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dude, you use underscores < 1266698280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you program IN C < 1266698287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only ugly in context < 1266698293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well I never liked identifiers beginning or ending with _ < 1266698298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like _exit() < 1266698299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're making a statement about aesthetics < 1266698302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on a tiny bit of stdlib code < 1266698305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stdlib code is ugly. fact. < 1266698309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda isn't < 1266698312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well yes it often is < 1266698326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/Especially/ when you're in type theory this heavy. < 1266698338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly, I can't comment upon that < 1266698357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but I think stdlib.i is even worse. And I read some parts of it. < 1266698371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that doesn't compare for various reasons < 1266698435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The cool thing about mixfix operators is that, not only can you define if/then/else and similar things as operators, you can even define parenthesising operators: < 1266698447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1266698448 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's really useful to define parens < 1266698458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_> : a -> TotallySquareBracketed a < 1266698463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = WowItsSoSquare x < 1266698472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, <_> has a huge problem with his eyes < 1266698478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I read that as "TotallyASquareBracket" first hehe < 1266698478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: sarc or sinc? < 1266698482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sarcasm or sincere, obviously.) < 1266698490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's angle bracket too lol < 1266698494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ridiculous code snippet is doubly so < 1266698522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: indeed given a good enough language, bobwas_amanwith<_a_PLA,_n(_end;_4 is a valid operator < 1266698528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because parens will just be defined as the operator (_) < 1266698530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x) = x < 1266698538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example usage of that incredibly useful operator: < 1266698549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think I would kick any programmer who used anything like "bobwas_amanwith<_a_PLA,_n(_end;_4" in the head < 1266698558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if I had to ever maintain that code < 1266698569 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, its one of the 'little things' which I would add to haskell to improvement < 1266698574 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :improve it < 1266698576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobwas amazing amanwith< (boobs/42) a plastic PLA, (retard (2%-4)) n( (okaynowso okaynowso) end; woooh 4 < 1266698586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, anyone defining such an operator is an abject idiot. < 1266698606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, agreed with the last comment < 1266698659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so _ is basically "fill in stuff when used here"? < 1266698662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266698676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in that case it is kind of neat. But around an operator it still looks rather ugly < 1266698677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also means that type names like [a] and (a,b,c) are no longer restricted to the bourgeois language designers < 1266698684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[_] and (_,_,_) < 1266698694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess you don't define such most of the time, rather you use them < 1266698699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah it's just that that's a piece of code operating on operators, which are first-class entities in agda < 1266698710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a rather specific piece of code too < 1266698715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the crazy < 1266698726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bourgeoisie < 1266698728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1266698730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bourgeois < 1266698731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't know if having first class operators makes me puke or makes me fall in love with the language. Possibly both at once < 1266698756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what did that code from the stdlib do though? < 1266698756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes well mixfix + first class operators leads to some gnarly crappiness that MissPiggy understands and I don't apparently < 1266698766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have no fucking clue! < 1266698782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, at least we are at the same level here then ;P < 1266698967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1266698970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_=_ : a → a → Bool < 1266698971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz : ∀(b:Set) (f:a→b) (x:a) (y:a). x = y → f x = f y < 1266698977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the first is equality < 1266698986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take a guess at what the second is (hint: it's a property of equality) < 1266698997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after seventy-four hours (when you finally grok it) it will mow your blind < 1266699018 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1266699038 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster -- I already explained what it does < 1266699038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, where is what = actually do defined? I mean, to me it looks like it describe the types it takes and returns < 1266699050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes; it's actually ... well, you can think of it as an interface < 1266699072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the values that must be define on a type a to make that type Unifiable < 1266699084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz, obviously, depends on = already being defined beforehand < 1266699094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but read its type (logical statement) < 1266699105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that (b:Set) can be ignored < 1266699108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's irrelevant to the gist < 1266699111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm trying to remember what leibniz did to figure it out :P < 1266699122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, just read the type aloud < 1266699122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas the things I do remember about him doesn't seem relevant here < 1266699128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need to know his name < 1266699132 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz : ∀(b:Set) (f:a→b) (x:a) (y:a). x = y → f x = f y < 1266699135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ignore the (b:Set) part read the upside down a as forall < 1266699138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: don't explain < 1266699141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanna see him grok it himself < 1266699147 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise im explaining something to you :P < 1266699148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I know what upside down A is < 1266699150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266699153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: do it in pm < 1266699155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might be better written as < 1266699156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: just checking >:D < 1266699159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: PM < 1266699160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pm plz < 1266699163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you'll spoil it :P < 1266699169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what is the x:a thing there? < 1266699176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what does that part do < 1266699179 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz : forall (x:a) (y:a) (b:Set) (f:a→b). x = y → f x = f y < 1266699203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is the same as he said isn't it? < 1266699216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't it say that f(x)=f(y) if x=y? < 1266699265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1266699271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming → is "implies" < 1266699272 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.105.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266699276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stepped on off switch < 1266699277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in normal logic < 1266699285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you explained it, didn't you < 1266699287 0 :CESSQUILINEAR!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266699290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, read logs, bbl reading iwc < 1266699291 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1266699301 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i want cake < 1266699304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope good < 1266699314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:53:36 but doesn't it say that f(x)=f(y) if x=y? < 1266699316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, basically < 1266699319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone who defines equality < 1266699327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must provide a proof that f(x) = f(y) if x = y, by their definition < 1266699344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you cannot define a bunk equality definition (well, apart from anything = anything being true) < 1266699356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is, it's just a normal type like = < 1266699359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no special "proof system" < 1266699391 0 :taxman!~chatzilla@92.4.156.98 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266699397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taxman, a man of much to tax < 1266699418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heyyy < 1266699422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266699428 0 :taxman!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey and hi. < 1266699431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so basically, it's a constraint on how you can define = < 1266699438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taxman: you new i presume? < 1266699441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome! now sacrifice goats. < 1266699456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm more used to thinking of = in terms of a relation on a set. < 1266699465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note: if you think, after that, that you have the wrong channel, you don't not have the right channel < 1266699476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, here, = is a function. < 1266699478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just equals(a,b) < 1266699502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, any definition of the name = for a given type must also include a definition of leibinz, which must be a proof of that statement (usually it can be inferred) < 1266699509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's like a constraint < 1266699550 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266699567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that baffling snippet i pasted was a function manipulating relations :P < 1266699627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sounds scary < 1266699637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scary, but cool < 1266699649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically languages like this build up an entire logico-mathematical theory < 1266699658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a proof system and a programming language based around them (that are the same) < 1266699663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it's your playground < 1266699740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes, but the stdlib is bound to end up quite hellish < 1266699746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in code, yes < 1266699748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in usage, beautiful < 1266699755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah that is what I meant < 1266699760 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266699770 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the hell would the stblib not be very simple and clear? < 1266699779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the concepts involved are subtle and elegant < 1266699782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll let alise explain it < 1266699794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the operations complex < 1266699803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hellish doesn't mean it isn't simple and clear < 1266699809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just complicated to the uninitiated < 1266699818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol I want something like leibniz for ≈ < 1266699818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1266699828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(a) ≈ f(b) if a ≈ b < 1266699830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's clearly false < 1266699834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take e.g. a hash function < 1266699836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so really what we need is < 1266699836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is ≈ almost equal here? < 1266699837 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266699840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266699853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(a) ≈ f(b) if a ≈ b and f reacts in proportion to the change of its argument < 1266699857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well hash function is a boring example. I was thinking along the lines of sin(1/x) around 0 < 1266699858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even < 1266699870 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so im trying to learn about dependency syntax and how they characterize grammaticality in natural language < 1266699879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(a) ≈withTolerance(newTolerance a b) f(b) if a ≈withTolerance(x) b and f reacts in proportion to the change of its argument < 1266699883 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one phenomena thats especially interesting to me is called an extraction island, right < 1266699889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even < 1266699891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(a) ≈withTolerance(newTolerance f a b) f(b) if a ≈withTolerance(x) b and f reacts in proportion to the change of its argument < 1266699896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the new tolerance can take into account the rate of change < 1266699903 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically its that thign that makes parasitic gaps parasitic instead of just bad < 1266699917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, couldn't you define a class of functions where f(a) ≈ f(b) if a ≈ b is true? < 1266699926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then somehow attach that property to them < 1266699929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's basically what I'm doing < 1266699936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the property is on ≈ < 1266699944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. if you define approx-equal, you must show that it obeys this property < 1266699944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, im reading through what was probably THE textbook on the subject, Dependency Syntax by Igor Mel'čuk, which argues that DS really CAN be used as a theoretical framework for describing natural language < 1266699945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by saying < 1266699950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'm not sure what is necessary and sufficient for it < 1266699950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"f reacts in proportion to the change of its argument" < 1266699956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm basically conjouring up the set of functions that do that < 1266699967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, over the reals it must be continuous I think? < 1266699968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this book makes no mention of extraction islands, despite being published about 20 years after they were discovered < 1266699972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm this may be the first time calculus was used in a type system < 1266699975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that isn't enough < 1266699977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after countless others have written extensively on the topic < 1266699998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i figure, yeah sure ok, maybe he was busy doing other stuff, i dont know, let me just email this guy and ask him directly < 1266700001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i email him < 1266700014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TO THIS DAY the guy has never even HEARD of extraction islands. < 1266700023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, augur: your nicks are the same length < 1266700027 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf|away < 1266700031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and both start on a < 1266700032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: this is true. < 1266700034 0 :scarf|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1266700037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have problems following what is going on < 1266700038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but he's annoying. and I'm not! < 1266700040 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf|away < 1266700040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb scarf < 1266700043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf|away: bye < 1266700050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh client issues I suspect < 1266700056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means we will have this for some time < 1266700057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a brief stay. like life < 1266700061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until he notices it < 1266700069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, he probably just returned to his terminal which set his irc client off < 1266700071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then he fixed it < 1266700075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm maybe < 1266700076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably he's busy and just popped back < 1266700078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's another possibility < 1266700087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: he's never heard of something so prominent? < 1266700090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fool! < 1266700091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the fuck can you claim that something is a viable theoretical apparatus if you dont even know about some big fucking phenomena, nevermind have an account of it < 1266700093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in his field) < 1266700096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont get it < 1266700109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discontinue any interest you have in his work < 1266700117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway what is required for f(a) ≈ f(b) if a ≈ b to hold? < 1266700136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you figure out what properties is required of the function I will be interested < 1266700137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really should, alise. but he offered to look at some sentences and try to characterize their dependency structure < 1266700150 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ive sent him some examples to see if he has any observations to make < 1266700153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: f(x)'s change is proportionate to x's change < 1266700166 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266700168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm what about |x|? < 1266700169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from that, that's it, I think < 1266700191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, that's acceptable given enough tolerance in the ≈ you use for f(a)/f(b) < 1266700199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : f(a) ≈withTolerance(newTolerance f a b) f(b) if a ≈withTolerance(x) b and f reacts in proportion to the change of its argument < 1266700199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so the new tolerance can take into account the rate of change < 1266700207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is, I think, the definition you need < 1266700208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus calculus < 1266700232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266700252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about sin(1/x) < 1266700262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would say it isn't true around 0 < 1266700276 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRSSI is being bugger... < 1266700280 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugged* < 1266700287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no news there < 1266700295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well it always goes in the same sort of way, right? < 1266700300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that the change gets more drastic < 1266700321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all that means is that you have to make (newTolerance (\x -> sin(1/x)) a b) be a very high tolerance for small a and b < 1266700340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this property is so weak as to be almost useless, though < 1266700346 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266700350 0 :scarf|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1266700352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you know lim_{x→0} sin(1/x) is undefined right? < 1266700390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as well as it being undefined in the point 0) < 1266700404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(due to div by zero) < 1266700408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and? < 1266700419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also sin 0 wouldn't type in my lang :P < 1266700428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err? < 1266700432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin 0 is perfectly ok < 1266700435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266700438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean sin(1/0) ofc < 1266700444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1266700451 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266700456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what if the value 0 is from runtime? < 1266700462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you do type checking there as well < 1266700468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither < 1266700474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why dependent langs are proof systems as well < 1266700483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you require testing that it isn't 0 before? < 1266700489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before dividing* < 1266700491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to assure the language mostly the compiler can do this for you that it isn't 0 < 1266700493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, that's one way < 1266700529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you have no exception handling or such I assume? < 1266700531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1266700537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :throw/try_catch < 1266700541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1266700547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No reason why not, as long as throw doesn't return just "a" but "Throw a" or "IO a" or whatever < 1266700563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a full-blooded language, define what you want as long as it halts. If it might not or doesn't halt, put it in the partiality monad and you can still define it. < 1266700573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why must it halt? < 1266700578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266700579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd point you to http://strictlypositive.org/slicing-jpgs/ and http://strictlypositive.org/winging-jpgs/ to understand conditions on worlds and stuff in a dependent language, but they're kinda heavy even if you know Haskell inside out < 1266700580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266700581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I see < 1266700588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because otherwise your proof for everything could be for(;;); < 1266700604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be any type you want, but it never yields a value and it certainly isn't a coherent proof of anything! < 1266700608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I missed the bit about "partiality monad" but then it makes perfect sense < 1266700622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so it will be total fp basically? < 1266700627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers reading about that < 1266700632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with data and co-data < 1266700632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ⊥ — our name for non-termination/error/all kinds of "non-value" — is insidious— oh, you've read the paper < 1266700636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes, it's total < 1266700648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like every other dependent language that doesn't want to melt down horribly in nonsense :) < 1266700660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language in Total FP isn't tc though iirc < 1266700668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a partiality monad in a good dependent lang you get turing completeness < 1266700674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and yes I understood the ideas of that paper. Possibly not the language used (wasn't it some custom made variation of miranda or something?) < 1266700687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a blend of miranda and haskell and stuff < 1266700689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266700691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't really a full language < 1266700692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pseudocode < 1266700694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266700704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I understood the ideas, that was the main thing < 1266700717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266700723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all this stuff is pretty sexy, it's a sweet spot in programming languages < 1266700732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway, how often would you actually need such a partiality monad? < 1266700732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it hasn't really been explored out of the fringe < 1266700743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just adding dependent types gives you like billions of things for free < 1266700746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't the paper conclude that for a lot of purposes you didn't need tc < 1266700754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amazingly good bang for your (admittedly large) buck < 1266700761 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think total fp is pretty daft... < 1266700767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: then why do you use Coq < 1266700768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is total < 1266700776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you just mean the paper < 1266700781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: anyway the paper isn't all /that/ good < 1266700787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolly why it was rejected < 1266700787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266700791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266700792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the partiality monad shouldn't be needed so much < 1266700801 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but I don't use it because it is total (I mean, it MUST be total for all the good bits to apply) < 1266700801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't remember that about rejection < 1266700804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can express ackermann and all without it, you're not really very limited < 1266700816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the type of the main program is, well < 1266700818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is the input cursor now gone?? < 1266700819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1266700819 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just being total for the sake of being total seems a bit pointless < 1266700820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1266700821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Partial (IO ()) < 1266700856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right restarted some stuff < 1266700873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as opposed to left restarted, or if you prefer that: missing comma) < 1266700903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, where were we? < 1266700917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1266700957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I lost scrollback there < 1266700976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_/_ : ∀a, {Field a} → {Unifiable a} → {n ≠ 0} → (n:a) → a → a < 1266700978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe < 1266700979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1266700983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can express ackermann and all without it, you're not really very limited < 1266700983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : obviously the type of the main program is, well < 1266700984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Partial (IO ()) < 1266700991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah missed that last line < 1266700996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because otherwise you could never evaluate a Partial expression, as obviously Partial a -> a isn't expressable < 1266701000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the whole point is that it's non-total < 1266701002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside that monad < 1266701005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. partiality is an effect < 1266701010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, could you do an infinite server loop? < 1266701011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without it < 1266701020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, use codata to create an infinite IO structure < 1266701028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you'd write the core of the server detached from IO stuff. < 1266701028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266701037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, if IO wasn't codata... < 1266701038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well that is common practise anyway < 1266701038 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then no. < 1266701040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in all good languages < 1266701046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the Partial contains one IO, not a stream of them. < 1266701061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if IO is data, not codata, you... well, you could infiniloop, but only because IO is useless without it. < 1266701062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But whatever. < 1266701071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway: < 1266701082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HASKELL: < 1266701087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(/) :: (Fractional a) => a -> a -> a < 1266701090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY LANGUAGE: < 1266701093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_/_ : ∀a, {Field a} → {Unifiable a} → {n ≠ 0} → (n:a) → a → a < 1266701100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's obvious which will be more popular (it's mine). < 1266701109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_/_ : ∀a, {Field a} → {Unifiable a} → {n ≠ 0} → (n:a) → a → a <-- huh? I see it says that you can't do division by zero, but where does n come from? < 1266701122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n:a) → b means < 1266701128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is the value of the argument at that position < 1266701134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though we don't know the value until runtime < 1266701137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, looks like the wrong order to put stuff in < 1266701138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can use it in types < 1266701138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1266701140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Complicated. < 1266701147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: x : a means x is of type a < 1266701150 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not complicated!!! < 1266701151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, shouldn't definition come before use < 1266701154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you reverse it that declaration would be written as < 1266701154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I meant < 1266701155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, backwards binding < 1266701159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's no declaration < 1266701163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, yes, that disturbs me somewhat < 1266701167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's just another argument < 1266701172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{...} just means "infer the value of this argument" < 1266701180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and having all your constraints < 1266701181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1266701184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a must be a Field and Unifiable < 1266701187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and n must not be 0 < 1266701191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before the rest of the type, is cleaner < 1266701199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, err, I have it the wrong way round < 1266701204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but does it return of the same type as the input arguments? < 1266701206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stops you dividing zero by something else instead X-D < 1266701208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that really correct < 1266701217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure < 1266701223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if so 2/3 would be integer division? < 1266701226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/3 is just (2/1)/(3/1) < 1266701233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was quick < 1266701239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :taking my example so fast ;P < 1266701242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, 2 is of type ... lemme think < 1266701250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀a, {Whatever a} → a < 1266701257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err? < 1266701260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it totally will be called Whatever, shut up < 1266701271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't get it. what does whatever do there < 1266701271 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x/y is only defined if we have a proof of y [#] 0. < 1266701277 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition cf_div (F : CField) (x y : F) y_ : F := x[*]f_rcpcl y y_. < 1266701280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, 2 = succ (succ 0), so wherever succ is, that's what whatever will be < 1266701290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, what about limits then? < 1266701292 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Record CField : Type := < 1266701292 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {cf_crr :> CRing; < 1266701292 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cf_rcpcl : forall x : cf_crr, x [#] 0 -> cf_crr; < 1266701294 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1266701311 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[#] means 'apart' i.e. not equal but more constructive < 1266701325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constructive my ass < 1266701326 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://c-corn.cs.ru.nl/documentation/toc.html < 1266701332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with a good refly frolick < 1266701350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is more constructive to prove things are apart that prove the negation of equality < 1266701361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define apart? < 1266701372 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have a different definition for each sort of type < 1266701379 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are some axioms for it < 1266701391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be cool to model classical logic in my type system and then prove that clasically, p or not p < 1266701393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: well, 2 = succ (succ 0), so wherever succ is, that's what whatever will be <-- since oerjan seems to be inactive: "that succs" < 1266701393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*classically < 1266701397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really cool < 1266701435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, where are the groans? < 1266701493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: hey do we have the axiom of choice for types? < 1266701494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be fun < 1266701498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess so < 1266701513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I still don't get what apartness is :) < 1266701522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that axiom considered somewhat problematic btw? < 1266701522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it kinda sucks to have a different operation for what's essentially the opposite of another op :( < 1266701529 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apartness it a constructive proof that things are not equal < 1266701539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has more information in it than simply ~ x = y < 1266701543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know why it is required, but I don't know why it seems to be avoided < 1266701547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach%E2%80%93Tarski_paradox < 1266701566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :russell o'connor had a nice post about the AoC < 1266701568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme find it < 1266701584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah that, I think iwc did a huge annotation on it < 1266701596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :during mythbuster theme < 1266701609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the strip was about needing 5 not 4 sections or such iirc < 1266701624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html < 1266701640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Axiom of Choice has two parts basically < 1266701644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one is uber smexy < 1266701666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not inactive. just backlogged. < 1266701681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy will hate it because it gets rid of quotient types apparently :D < 1266701853 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-235-101.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266701885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how he links to a proof of the axiom of choice, too < 1266701890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Coq < 1266701891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"DON'T DOUBT ME, BITCH" < 1266701934 0 :cheater4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266701948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in Coq <-- as a data: url too! < 1266701959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems < 1266701962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is the first one < 1266701971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION <3 data urls < 1266701971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266701974 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sooooooooooooo much < 1266701981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, seems a bit strange for this case < 1266701998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he does it a lot to basically do "footnotes"w < 1266702000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"footnotes" < 1266702004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at least twice in his blog < 1266702033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine if we all were using turing machines. Every link would be a data: uri plus quining. < 1266702078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if we define that %!! means "this entire data URI", escapable by the usual means (i.e. using %), then every link would contain not only the contents of the page it links to, but the contents of the pages that page links to, etc, only using quining when a link back to the page linked to is encountered. < 1266702087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, %?? would be "this page", to avoid more quining issues < 1266702103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so every time you link to a page you store a complete snapshot of the web :) < 1266702120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266702124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the web reachable from the page you link to < 1266702127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably an awful lot < 1266702148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm the bandwidth :D < 1266702165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite, naturally. < 1266702183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, and 0 latency? < 1266702200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Latency is irrelevant so long as it is under, say, a few days. < 1266702211 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should make an effort to understand that proof :| < 1266702217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the banach tarski paradox is not a paradox, grrrr < 1266702220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why? < 1266702220 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the external link) < 1266702221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, loading the Google homepage (which would contain all the possible results and the algorithm for looking up the results) would download most of the web that matters. < 1266702236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it'd be a one-time cost apart from really obscure stuff. < 1266702244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because remember, the possible results include the links to pages there, etc. < 1266702252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err, what about checking weather for tomorrow < 1266702256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So basically, caching the Google page caches every page on Google or reachable from a page on Google. < 1266702261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be annoying if you got that page only 2 days after < 1266702262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266702270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, obviously, the web is immutable like this; we'd need some special service for pushing us updates to certain pages. < 1266702280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably by creating new pages, since there is no "page identifier" other than the page itself. < 1266702301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1266702305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly the latency would have to be non-ridiculous for that. < 1266702311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1266702346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why not create all possible web pages instead? < 1266702366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I suspect this is non-computable and/or uncountable) < 1266702386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 times he's used link-footnotes on his blog < 1266702392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Uh, it's countable. < 1266702401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, they could have any length < 1266702405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A string is isomorphic to a natural number. < 1266702409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and link to any other < 1266702427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 = "", 1 = "\0", 2 = "\1", ..., 255 = "\255", 256 = "\0\0", 257 = "\0\1", ... < 1266702433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the entire web would be a set of infinitly long strings < 1266702435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1266702445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus there would always be one in between < 1266702450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh... < 1266702457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20040616T005300Z.html another good post < 1266702461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, thus we basically have cantor's diagonally thingy < 1266702469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err not that one < 1266702477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one that proves you can't count the reals < 1266702479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cantorsDiagonallyThingy : ... < 1266702480 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf|away < 1266702485 0 :scarf|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1266702493 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah it's the diagonal one < 1266702508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was confusing it with the one that proved you *could* count the rationals < 1266702565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALL THIS STUFF IS SO FUCKING INTERESTING! FUCKING FUCK FUCKSHI!!!! < 1266702567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*FUCKSHIT < 1266702576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not being sarcastic < 1266702578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck yes < 1266702581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I maintain that the set of all possible pages including all possible linked pages as data urls is uncountable < 1266702603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to what I described above < 1266702609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. < 1266702648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, basically we could always insert a page that sorts in between two given ones < 1266702658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god modelling classical logic in constructivist logic will be awesomely awesome < 1266702672 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the set of all possible finite pages is obviously countable < 1266702719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : subst : {A : Set}(C : A → Set){x y : A} → x == y → C x → C y < 1266702720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266702722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, you could always insert one that sorts in between, couldn't you? it would still be finite < 1266702727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is equiv to f(x) = f(y) if x = y isn't it < 1266702730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but slightly longer than those < 1266702731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except more constructivismism < 1266702734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(misspiggy?) < 1266702739 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one that sorts? < 1266702772 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise prove symmetry (i.e. x = y -> y = x) using subst < 1266702799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do that with f(x) = f(y) if x = y either can you < 1266702803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean subst is greater than that? < 1266702812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, anyway describe the proof for why " the set of all possible finite pages is obviously countable" < 1266702837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't obvious to me, in fact it looks like the reverse < 1266702842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with f(x) = f(y) if x = y, it's `equals(y,x) = equals(y,y) if x = y` < 1266702850 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: base 257 numbers < 1266702853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since equals(y,y) is true, equals(y,x) must be true < 1266702859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that's y = x, we have shown that y = x if x = y < 1266702865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't look possible with subst < 1266702874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: so leibniz's law is greater, then, I assume < 1266702875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, 257? < 1266702883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1266702884 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst IS liebniz < 1266702888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let C be - yeah < 1266702898 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah so you don't get the problem of initial zeroes < 1266702911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's just that i would have written it as C x = C y < 1266702915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than implying both < 1266702917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine seems to be more general < 1266702926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C doesn't have to return Set, just something equalisibleirel < 1266702934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're equivalent but still < 1266702938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just wondering which is "better" < 1266702941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you can't sort them based on bytes from the start in a well defined order though. Hm you are right < 1266703003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was like anchoring them at the start rather than placing them in numerical order (strcmp() as opposed to < or > on bignums basically) < 1266703024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well this is the most irritating dilemma ever < 1266703031 0 :taxman!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.7/20091221164558] < 1266703036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, but remember they do contain all linked pages as data uris < 1266703039 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise state them both < 1266703045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm doesn't change things < 1266703064 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266703075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but they're identical < 1266703104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well are they still finite? < 1266703105 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :state them :[ < 1266703114 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pages + data uri lists < 1266703128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:49:31 leibniz : ∀(b:Set) (f:a→b) (x:a) (y:a). x = y → f x = f y < 1266703128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:52:12 leibniz : ∀(b:Set) (f:a→b) (x:a) (y:a). x = y → f x = f y < 1266703132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do these two differ < 1266703139 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1266703144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, possibly it links to something that include everything else. But I think alise said that should be represented as "same page" to handle the loops < 1266703145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, tunes fucked up the unicode < 1266703153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus they would be finite I think < 1266703159 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise no no no < 1266703161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there are infinite pages? < 1266703161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they were to include themselves literally < 1266703163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course not < 1266703167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: ??? < 1266703168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, err what? < 1266703169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :talking to you is so confusing < 1266703176 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AnMaster: oklopol, possibly it links to something that include everything else." < 1266703192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, "But I think alise said that should be represented as "same page" to handle the loops" < 1266703196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, on the same line < 1266703199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1266703201 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I meant to say put x and y before everything else, for partial application < 1266703203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use an escape < 1266703208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266703211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to indicate it links to the page it is in < 1266703217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1266703218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266703221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wouldn't work alise < 1266703227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why nawt? < 1266703229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh AnMaster < 1266703232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought you were MissPiggy < 1266703236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. talking about non-boring things < 1266703238 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266703245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you could have loops of pages that aren't using the top page < 1266703254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes which is why in a data: uri you have %!! < 1266703255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to mean "this uri" < 1266703256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus couldn't indicate "this page" < 1266703265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%?? means this page, i.e. the page containing the link to that uri < 1266703265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst : ∀(x:a) (y:a) (f:a→Set), x ≡ y → f x → f y < 1266703265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz : ∀(x:a) (y:a) (b:Set) (f:a→b), x ≡ y → f x ≡ f y < 1266703268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: stated. < 1266703271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be nested hm < 1266703286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously they both are equivalent; leibniz is more lenient/general, except not < 1266703288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what the fuck does it matter what it links to < 1266703293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait it is < 1266703294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266703298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266703307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst may be "easier" to prove because it does not involve f x ≡ f y < 1266703308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, if it was to literally include the whole page recursively you would get infinite pages < 1266703313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could be very iffy for arbitrary f < 1266703316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was my point < 1266703325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: whereas f x → f y intuitively seems easier to prove, no? < 1266703331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact < 1266703359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a page would then contain infinite data urls in the middle < 1266703364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(possibly) < 1266703373 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, good point, if there are infinite pages, then my argument about finite pages doesn't apply. < 1266703384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, is it still countable though? < 1266703387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it < 1266703388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you're so sarcastic :) < 1266703408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well this is some thrilling conversation here :P < 1266703612 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you have infinite pages, then there can obviously be uncountably many < 1266703621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f:a→Set is better < 1266703635 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it should be called leibniz, whereas f:a -> b should be called subst < 1266703653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, indeed < 1266703670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: why is f:a->Set better? < 1266703690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm only going to define one; the other can be inferred from it with no code, I believe < 1266703695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1266703722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x → f y means "you can transform a value of type (the result of (f x)) into a value of type (the result of (f y))" < 1266703729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which _doesn't_ mean that f x and f y are the same < 1266703734 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, try and prove them both < 1266703737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, yes it does, since f can be any such function < 1266703749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: heh ok, i'm a bit of a proof retard though < 1266703750 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will only go one direction < 1266703760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope you don't mean a checked proof :( < 1266703766 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course I do! < 1266703770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only know the programming side of /existing/ dependent languages though! < 1266703780 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah it doesn't matter if it's checked < 1266703842 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to read On Denoting at some point < 1266703975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh i think i may be retarded, proving ∀(x:a) (y:a) (b:Set) (f:a→b), x ≡ y → f x ≡ f y is causing my brain to go ⊥ < 1266703988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm either intelligent or really stupid never in-between < 1266704002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266704006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : refl : {x:a} → x ≡ x < 1266704061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : heh i think i may be retarded, proving ∀(x:a) (y:a) (b:Set) (f:a→b), x ≡ y → f x ≡ f y is causing my brain to go ⊥ <-- what axioms do you have available for this? < 1266704073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your standard dependently-typed constructivist type theory < 1266704114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't know what those are. But the proof is trivial for pure functions over a set with the = operator < 1266704124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm proving it from < 1266704125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _≡_ : {a:Set} → a → a → Set where < 1266704125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : refl : {x:a} → x ≡ x < 1266704128 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :refl (f x) : f x = f x < 1266704128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it follows from definition of ? < 1266704130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266704131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of = < 1266704146 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how can you turn f x = f x into f x = f y :P < 1266704155 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using "subst" which should actually be called leibniz) < 1266704156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if x = y then they are identifical < 1266704164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identical* < 1266704169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah exactly < 1266704176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm so wait < 1266704196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proof of leibniz (which should be call subst, the f(x)=f(y) version) involves subst (the f(x)->f(y) version)? < 1266704205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, then I /definitely/ want subst, as it is "more fundamental" in a sense < 1266704206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, thus it follows that you can write x as y. and thus f x = f y can be rewritten to f y = f y < 1266704219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, seems pretty trivial to me < 1266704224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well basically I need to prove that if the normal forms of two values are equal they're indistinguishable < 1266704230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think that's axiomatic though < 1266704253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sounds like the same as what I did basically? < 1266704260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266704262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1266704264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took it axiomatic rather < 1266704279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's trivial then < 1266704291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but I thought that was by definition so < 1266704315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/834672.txt?key=ehlammleckrtzlp63rlxsw < 1266704324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think MissPiggy would give me such a trivial task, though. < 1266704344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that desugaring isn't quite right, it's {} in the foralled things < 1266704345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's equivalent < 1266704363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the proof of leibniz (which should be call subst, the f(x)=f(y) version) involves subst (the f(x)->f(y) version)? < 1266704363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if so, then I /definitely/ want subst, as it is "more fundamental" in a sense < 1266704365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: < 1266704380 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise that paste is not right < 1266704389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know < 1266704393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just playing by AnMaster's rules < 1266704399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean i made an actual error < 1266704402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case my brain really is off today < 1266704411 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wel you just repeated the question then went QED < 1266704412 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266704412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well without that axiom I'm quite confused as how to prove it < 1266704420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: exactly < 1266704423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: duh that's why it's hard < 1266704439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you have to prove that (f x ≡ f y) → ⊥ < 1266704447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. it is impossible to construct a value of type (f x ≡ f y) < 1266704451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, exactly, but I wasn't aware of that it was not considered axiom/definition < 1266704457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was responding to < 1266704457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise, well without that axiom I'm quite confused as how to prove it < 1266704469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway MissPiggy i don't want to prove it i want you to answer my question :) < 1266704471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the proof of leibniz (which should be call subst, the f(x)=f(y) version) involves subst (the f(x)->f(y) version)? < 1266704471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if so, then I /definitely/ want subst, as it is "more fundamental" in a sense < 1266704471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266704663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whacks MissPiggy < 1266704679 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey I am writing something for you < 1266704682 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop attacking me! < 1266704684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1266704692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just making scientific inqierie < 1266704694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, possible answer (but certainly incorrect): "because it is call by value" < 1266704695 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266704703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that still isn't a proof < 1266704710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't understand what a proof is :) < 1266704711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I said it was incorrect duh < 1266704716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it was a joke < 1266704720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it was call by value < 1266704722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't be a proof < 1266704723 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/834684.txt < 1266704734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, exactly. all math is < 1266704740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266704742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost all < 1266704742 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise a proof is a term in the language! which will typecheck < 1266704744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all math is what? < 1266704748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call by value? bullshit < 1266704753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i know _that_ < 1266704774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I did correct it... < 1266704775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so leibniz > subst < 1266704788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait MissPiggy you're giving me homework! < 1266704790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:| < 1266704792 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes :P < 1266704800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i have no dependent language installed so i can't prove it < 1266704800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nyah < 1266704811 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are not supposed to use a type theory just do it by hand < 1266704818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay lamer :P < 1266704830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh i have to rewrite your fucking lame syntax in sane syntax :| < 1266704837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'll refuse to < 1266704843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, why P instead of p < 1266704846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a variable < 1266704847 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I want to see how you rewrite it because I don'\t know what's bad about that syntax < 1266704854 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no lower/uppercase distinction < 1266704857 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a good thing) < 1266704867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266704869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but convention < 1266704876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can't use (T:*); this is /inside/ Unifiable < 1266704881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait no < 1266704888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait yes < 1266704892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been using \equiv all along lol < 1266704893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I really mean = < 1266704911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I cannot prove what you put there; = is in Unifiable and is defined by the implementer. The proof will differ for each type. < 1266704921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean for Unifiable, i.e. ≡? < 1266704934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. the refl thing < 1266704935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1266704937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean for not Unifiable, i.e. ≡? < 1266704940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266704941 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you can replace = with any 2-ary relation, the definition doesn't matter < 1266704942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you do, otherwise I cannot help < 1266704946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: can't < 1266704953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the proof differs for each definition of = in Unifiable < 1266704958 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1266704960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'll assume equiv < 1266704963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yes, it does < 1266704965 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1266704970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the definition of = differs < 1266704973 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266704974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proof using = must differ too < 1266705029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway do you want \equiv i.e. same normal form < 1266705037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or = i.e. defined depending on the type < 1266705046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since we have unifiable = (t,=,leibniz)) < 1266705051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :choose < 1266705075 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, listen to me :( < 1266705083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the former is acceptable I would prefer it, for I do not need to include records in the type. < 1266705086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the former acceptable? < 1266705087 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes or no. < 1266705087 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you replace all occurecense of x = y with R x y < 1266705090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. < 1266705092 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and f x = f y with R (f x) (f y) < 1266705092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the former acceptable? < 1266705095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can still do the proof < 1266705098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the former acceptable? < 1266705112 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geez you really dont understand what 'listen to me' means < 1266705115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do. < 1266705124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I understand what you said. < 1266705135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, I will continue to ask the question until I am absolutely certain what I am going to do what you want. < 1266705145 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what question < 1266705156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz : ∀(a:*) (x:a) (y:a), (p:a→*) → x ≡ y → p x → p y < 1266705159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where < 1266705161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _≡_ : {a:Set} → a → a → Set where < 1266705161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : refl : {x:a} → x ≡ x < 1266705172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, I am not proving leibniz; correct? I am proving leibniz implies subst. < 1266705179 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266705180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this, then, acceptable? < 1266705180 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"leibniz impiles subst (prove this)" < 1266705181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, but does that really hold for any R? < 1266705183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good < 1266705187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, and any function? < 1266705216 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any relation R which has reflexivity < 1266705223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266705295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, but if we set R to be =< and define f x to be a hash function it doesn't seem to hold < 1266705307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and =< is reflexive < 1266705320 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it doesn't hold"? what is it? < 1266705354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that x =< y implies md5(x) =< md5(y) for example < 1266705368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, since =< *is* reflexive < 1266705382 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, forget about proving subst or proving liebniz, < 1266705392 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are thinking about proving subst -> leibniz, or leibniz -> subst < 1266705401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, hm right < 1266705430 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are right that with R as =< it you can't construct subst, but that is not really an issue < 1266705466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, so you need more than just reflexive. I think you need symmetric too < 1266705473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably transitive as well < 1266705474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the tex for the or symbol again? < 1266705494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, \cup ? < 1266705498 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can prove symmetry and transitivity from leibniz! < 1266705500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266705522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it is \vee < 1266705523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot < 1266705536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, hm okay < 1266705708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: lol well I thought I'd proved it < 1266705712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'd actually proved < 1266705713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ∀(a:*) (x:a) (y:a) (b:*) (f:a→b), < 1266705713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x ≡ y → (f y ≡ f x) → (f x ≡ f y) < 1266705720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec, I believe I have the basic technique right < 1266705750 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise yes! < 1266705758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes what? < 1266705759 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266705760 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! < 1266705761 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1266705762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed :P < 1266705766 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you did it too < 1266705770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you proved commutativity of equal :D < 1266705773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm close though < 1266705774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what? < 1266705777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not equality; equivalence < 1266705780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266705787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given ∀(a:*) (x:a) (y:a) (p:a→*), x ≡ y → p x → p y < 1266705797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol you know < 1266705800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had a journey with equality < 1266705810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first I used shitty languages that only had one or two equality operators and shit sucked < 1266705828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1266705831 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I used Scheme; it had a multitude of equality operators defining every type of equality given mutable pointers < 1266705837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I thought dayum, this language sum rigorous bitch < 1266705850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I used Haskell: lo, for it only had one equality, by removing that hideous wretch of mutability and pointers. < 1266705854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I get what you are talking about now < 1266705864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I thought: lo, this bitch did remove sum complexity with it's purity; dayum. < 1266705885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, I use dependent languages; they have every type of mathematical equality, equivalence under reduction, and ponies. < 1266705900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think: Dayum, I sure am glad I'm messing with this instead of doing actual real work. < 1266705905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah all those equal variants in scheme annoyed me < 1266705906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1266705912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could never remember which one I wanted < 1266705914 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266705924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*its purity < 1266705928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(after haskell line) < 1266705946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so what i need to do is basically give a suitable p < 1266705959 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266705962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that (p x -> p y) means the same thing as (f x === f y) < 1266705981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i can't connect the xs and ys on each side, so i will have to do it for both x and y redundantly < 1266705992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, p x must not be the actual statement that f x ≡ f y < 1266705996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266705997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, I have merely a tautology < 1266706024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got it < 1266706029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: will this be on the exam? < 1266706035 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, certainly < 1266706042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit this gunna be long night < 1266706047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sleep -> < 1266706078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, what exam? < 1266706090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it was a joke right? < 1266706094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, night too < 1266706137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: http://pastie.org/834705.txt?key=3zp9sv7t9v12drxuyy7ow I have proved that leibniz implies subst. < 1266706156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now must show why ~(subst -> leibniz), correct? After you make sure my proof is correct. Miss P. < 1266706164 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266706170 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't prove ~(subst -> leibniz) < 1266706176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably I made some trivial error as I often do. < 1266706177 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just explain why subst doesn't imply leibniz < 1266706178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not prove; just explain why < 1266706182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266706184 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266706189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ut yeah, check http://pastie.org/834705.txt?key=3zp9sv7t9v12drxuyy7ow is to your satisfaction < 1266706219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True/False are assumed to be of type *, < 1266706220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we are assumed to have ∩ doing the obvious thing on True < 1266706220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and False. < 1266706223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is not needed in the actual proof < 1266706226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just debris from a previous version < 1266706231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, almost.. < 1266706241 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst {a} {x} {y} {b} {f} e = leibniz {a} {x} {y} {λz → f x ≡ f z} e _ < 1266706247 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't that _ be (refl (f x))? < 1266706278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : MissPiggy: http://pastie.org/834705.txt?key=3zp9sv7t9v12drxuyy7ow I have proved that leibniz implies subst. <-- reminds me of Knuth's programming style somehow < 1266706282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i read that agda implements implicit arguments as syntactic sugar by replacing them with _ < 1266706284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is where the real magic is < 1266706291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266706295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because _ is letting the compiler prove it < 1266706296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is cheating < 1266706296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1266706327 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I mean why not just write subst {a} {x} {y} {b} {f} e = < 1266706327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: How? Knuth is a literate C man. < 1266706332 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst {a} {x} {y} {b} {f} e = < 1266706334 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wugh!! < 1266706335 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst {a} {x} {y} {b} {f} e = _ < 1266706337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the literate bit is what I meant < 1266706338 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just that ^ ;P < 1266706340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah exactly < 1266706345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get your point < 1266706354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/834713.txt?key=f7bl2cjpmw9tmchuyqdw < 1266706355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Revised proof. < 1266706357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: lol < 1266706368 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes alise this is perfect < 1266706374 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts down the cane :) < 1266706420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what you done there *is* literate programming it seems < 1266706425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*did < 1266706432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What you done there" sounds... uncouth! < 1266706433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, youve* < 1266706437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266706444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus ' possible < 1266706448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whateva yoove doned there's < 1266706454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's you've. < 1266706458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266706462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that was the real typo < 1266706476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in I intended to write you've < 1266706477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's literate programming, sort of; there's no delimiters, though, and I define subst's type twice, which isn't quite cosher. < 1266706485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, it is text interspersed with code. :P < 1266706491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Okay so now I have to do the reverse < 1266706495 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266706500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i know not a proof < 1266706501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an explanation < 1266706503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah blah < 1266706534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, an indirect proof sounds like the way to go there < 1266706652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, maybe not < 1266706655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: actually I'm not seeing it < 1266706659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what does "p x → p y" really mean? It means that given < 1266706659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a value of type (the result of p x), we can return a < 1266706659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :value of type (the result of p y). Since values with the < 1266706659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same normal form is distinguishable, this is equivalent < 1266706659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to (p x → p x), a tautology. < 1266706667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously p x has the same normal form as p x < 1266706675 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no < 1266706680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's what subst talks about < 1266706683 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = y does not mean x and y have the same normal form < 1266706685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f x having the same normal form as f y < 1266706689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: x === y does though < 1266706695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you /said/ equiv was acceptable < 1266706697 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266706706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two values are /the same value/ < 1266706710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously they share a normal form < 1266706716 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only when you have refl p y form and not subst < 1266707018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I am grateful for that! NOW DIEEEE < 1266707033 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol if you don't complete it will not attain full marks < 1266707039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe later < 1266707046 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise nah we covered it < 1266707052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, * sucks! \star, \bigstar, Set or Type please. :P < 1266707056 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean look, subst can only produce an equality < 1266707059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You may choose.) < 1266707061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah < 1266707063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but liebniz can produce _anything) < 1266707064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas leibniz can produce anything < 1266707065 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_anything_ < 1266707066 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266707066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266707074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subst is just a restriction of leibniz's type pretty much < 1266707076 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's why it's stronger < 1266707078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo a few, really unimportant things < 1266707117 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no but they are important! < 1266707129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatevs :P < 1266707134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, on to important matters < 1266707138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\star, \bigstar, Set or Type < 1266707141 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266707146 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\bigstar < 1266707157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what type has \bigstar? < 1266707168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :★₁? < 1266707172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow that star is ugly in this font < 1266707174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not antialiased < 1266707256 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1266707267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: THESE ARE IMPORTANT SYNTACTIC MATTERS :P < 1266707298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every though I read your note I still don't get why it's important.. < 1266707325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not I'm just joking < 1266707337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :syntax is important but not the name of the set of sets :) < 1266707354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set is a bit of a misnomer though, isn't it? < 1266707359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because set theory is subverted in some places, no? < 1266707377 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's kind of weird to call it set < 1266707384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait no, the subversion is (exists a. a) as a type < 1266707393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm not sure i even have existential quantification < 1266707397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it even mean in a dependent language < 1266707468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: if it obeys set theory though what's the problem < 1266707521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not a set < 1266707527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :howso? < 1266707536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an inductively defined set if i have my set theory terminology right < 1266707541 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can interpret it as a set.. .but that's just like, your interpretation.. man < 1266707562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you saying that because you could equally well call it ConstructiveStatement? < 1266707602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The view from the left", paper introducing Epigram: < 1266707622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"{says that it uses \bigstar_n blah blah} These level subscripts can be managed mechanically (Harper & Pollack, 1991), so we shall freely omit them." < 1266707625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was unaware. < 1266707661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, records are the same thing as modules aren't they < 1266707664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given a good record system < 1266707684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, rather, record types = module signatures < 1266707692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferred with modules obvs < 1266707788 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266707911 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266708295 0 :chickenzilla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266708300 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1266708367 0 :augur_!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266708390 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1266708413 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266708664 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266708732 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266708900 0 :augur__!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266708904 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266708907 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1266708915 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266708930 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266709108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guh < 1266709112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to understand Agda's library < 1266709148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, I like its syntax for forall < 1266709164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀{a} → b < 1266709186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥-elim : ∀ {w} {Whatever : Set w} → ⊥ → Whatever < 1266709186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥-elim () < 1266709248 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266709272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: there are subtle problems at every single damn level of this and they all involve advanced mathematics, what the fuck am I doing?! < 1266709277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is INSANE! < 1266709288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /know/ I'm not clever enough to do this < 1266709314 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you are < 1266709314 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you have philosophy on your side it will become much easier < 1266709340 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nV6WqA4Y0 < 1266709364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by "philosophy on your side" exactly? < 1266709371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like some sort of coherent "idea" of my language that everything follows from? < 1266709385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just think about what stuff means and such < 1266709389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh it seems that agda's solution to having one _+_ with multiple definitions is just to... rename them on import < 1266709392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless i'm reading this wrong < 1266709395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah i try < 1266709396 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things will unify < 1266709414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm almost certain I'm not intelligent enough to prove my language correct, though. < 1266709426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a Ph.D., I haven't studied proving such things. < 1266709428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise oh of course you are, just implement a model in some other type theory < 1266709439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...you know, you're right. < 1266709446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have to implement this in Agda or Coq or whatever and I'm done. < 1266709458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My fear there is that implementing it in Agda will show how ridiculously similar to Agda my language is. :) < 1266709470 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't understand the proof for stuff like Coq but I know it's not a hoax :P < 1266709486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, gedit highlights agda as... wait for it... < 1266709487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL < 1266709501 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats kind of ironic lol < 1266709506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually doesn't work too ridiculously badly < 1266709511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it highlights open and record < 1266709513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not data though < 1266709524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :highlights String too but not most other data types :P < 1266709531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :highlights comments though which is the main thing imo < 1266709543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ℤ : Set where < 1266709543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -[1+_] : (n : ℕ) → ℤ -- -[1+ n ] stands for - (1 + n). < 1266709543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : +_ : (n : ℕ) → ℤ -- + n stands for n. < 1266709547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting representation. < 1266709579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you like the song < 1266709592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which song < 1266709597 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3nV6WqA4Y0 < 1266709603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1266709607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my flash is borken, guess it's time to restart ff again < 1266709625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love you adobe. let me violate you with a rake < 1266709657 0 :augur__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266709666 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh you can get a script that makes youtube not use flash :P < 1266709764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know. < 1266709818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8Dshk1XfDc < 1266709830 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love that lol < 1266709838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ditto < 1266709841 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he is one completely great actor < 1266709871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god, dependent languages are so amazing < 1266709886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should make a channel for them, in fact i just did #dependent < 1266709895 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did that :( nobody joined < 1266709902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WE CAN JOIN < 1266709979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It even has a topic! JOIN ME < 1266710066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266710087 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.105.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266710975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266711103 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266711261 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266711342 0 :P4!p4@unaffiliated/p4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266711348 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi! < 1266711371 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1266711381 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a contest doing in here? < 1266711393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266711397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi P4. < 1266711424 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a brainfuck interpreter, the trigger is !brainfuck [code] if you'r einterested < 1266711441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have a PSOX interpreter? < 1266711457 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266711471 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!brainfuck [code] < 1266711471 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Execution time: 0 sec., used 1 items. < 1266711481 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!brainfuck [+.] < 1266711482 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Execution time: 0 sec., used 1 items. < 1266711487 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite frankly, i don't know :P the script i use is here http://pastebin.com/d3e4a2f93 < 1266711488 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!brainfuck +[code] < 1266711514 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language is that? < 1266711517 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is it secure/ < 1266711523 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!brainfuck [++.] < 1266711528 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!brainfuck +[code] < 1266711531 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not multithreaded, is it < 1266711540 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A single infinite loop kills it < 1266711548 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!brainfuck [code] < 1266711575 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!brainfuck +[code] < 1266711575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either make it so that execution stops after a certain time, or multithread it. Actually, you should probably do both < 1266711667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P4: lol you didn't even *write* the script you mean? < 1266711725 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recognize the language < 1266711742 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is right, i just wanted to test it for the exploiting < 1266711750 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266711763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, mIRC < 1266711779 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is right, http://www.mirc.net/paste/?3758 here is better view < 1266711788 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People should learn to write real bots < 1266711796 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pastebin.com seems to be failing on mirc type < 1266711808 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Python scripts for XChat or something, at the very least < 1266711817 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But real bots can be run by anyone regardless of client < 1266711826 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, actually i use supybot as a main bot, i could write plugins in python if i knew that language :p < 1266711862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has had issues getting supybot to work < 1266711923 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox_7tPA-vYo&feature=related < 1266711963 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: i will help you if i can, but #supybot-bots is more apropriate channel < 1266711972 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P4, it was a while ago < 1266711975 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't need it now < 1266711985 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhkay (: < 1266711991 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I need to write a bot anytime soon, I'm comfortable using irclib, and can survive with Twisted < 1266712050 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RbNdwY4ujw < 1266712152 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EgoBot: I wurve you < 1266712159 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Gregor: I WURVE YOU TOO < 1266712167 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :221 ++++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>++.-------------.++.++++++++.+++.<<<++.>++++.>++.<.>>---------------------------.--.---.<+++++++++++++.<<+++++++++++.>.>+++.>---.<----.<.>-.-----..<----------------------. [499] < 1266712183 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ++++++++++++++[>++++>++>+++++>++++++++<<<<-]>>>+.>++.-------------.++.++++++++.+++.<<<++.>++++.>++.<.>>---------------------------.--.---.<+++++++++++++.<<+++++++++++.>.>+++.>---.<----.<.>-.-----..<----------------------. < 1266712186 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I WURVE YOU TOO < 1266712231 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen abcdefghijklmnopqrst < 1266712233 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+++++++++>+><<<<-]>--.+.>.+.+.+.<+++++.+.+.+.+.+.>+++++++.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>-. [323] < 1266712245 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz < 1266712247 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :112 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>++++++++++>+><<<<-]>--.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.+.>.+.+.<++++.+.+.+.>+++++.+.<+++.+.+.+.>>-. [1000] < 1266712288 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We live to dance, another day / Just now we have to dance, for one more of us / So stop looking so damned depressed / And sing with all our hearts / Long live the queen < 1266712310 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks for all the fish :) < 1266712310 0 :P4!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266712314 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haw < 1266712317 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I scared 'im off. < 1266712637 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was watching Hulu. < 1266712650 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They just showed a Verizon commercial that was a blatant.. Twilight thingy < 1266713055 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_textgen wat < 1266713086 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen We live to dance, another day / Just now we have to dance, for one more of us / So stop looking so damned depressed / And sing with all our hearts / Long live the queen < 1266713101 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen wat < 1266713103 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1923 +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++>++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>-.++++++++++++++.<-.>>--.---.+++++++++++++.<.<.>>--.-----.<<.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>----.>-.<<-.++.>>>.------------.<<.<+++++++++.>>+.<<++++++.>>-------.---.<<--.>>>.<-.<.<+++++++.>>>.+++++++++++++++.<--------------------------------------------------------------------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<<----.--.+.>>.>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+. < 1266713107 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1266713114 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf +++++++++++[>+++>++++++++>++++++++++>++++<<<<-]>>-.++++++++++++++.<-.>>--.---.+++++++++++++.<.<.>>--.-----.<<.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.>----.>-.<<-.++.>>>.------------.<<.<+++++++++.>>+.<<++++++.>>-------.---.<<--.>>>.<-.<.<+++++++.>>>.+++++++++++++++.<--------------------------------------------------------------------.>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<<----.--.+.>>.>++++++++++++++++++++++++ < 1266713115 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We live to dance, another day / Just < 1266713130 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266713140 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :espernet cut off the message < 1266713167 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just did this http://chicken.olol.eu/tests/index.bf < 1266713181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dresdencodak.com/2009/01/27/advanced-dungeons-and-discourse/ < 1266713189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: you mean freenode. < 1266713193 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266713198 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm on alot of servers < 1266713198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chickenzilla: .b not .bf < 1266713200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.bf is befunge < 1266713209 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: people use bf for brainfuck too < 1266713213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: they are wrong < 1266713215 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, .b is for B < 1266713216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.bf is befunge, .b is brainfuck < 1266713216 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266713219 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.b is B < 1266713220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simple rule, obeyed by everyone < 1266713222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: no it's not < 1266713224 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1266713227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B was obsolete before we used file extensions < 1266713227 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I code B < 1266713231 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? < 1266713241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so brainfuck got there first. and dbc does it, so stop whining. < 1266713249 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay? < 1266713260 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was B like? < 1266713268 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I'll use .bfk, .bfg, and .b < 1266713301 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it was BCL. < 1266713315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: crappy < 1266713324 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, BCPL rather < 1266713519 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is tired < 1266713641 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266713652 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm being forced to use it because f schol < 1266713661 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my keyboard's daying < 1266713663 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dying* < 1266713764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your SCHOOL uses BCPL?! < 1266713782 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266713806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cannot even /begin/ to comprehend how gob-smackingly, jaw-droppingly, goat-molestingly FUCKING RETARDED someone ten times as intelligent as them must be. < 1266713806 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya studies in The Doctor's School of Time Travel and Computer Science < 1266713835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, B wasn't BCPL; B is a separate language. < 1266713840 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266713846 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knw this < 1266713849 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :know* < 1266713997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Will you be watching men's curling in two hours? < 1266714000 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canada vs the UK! < 1266714008 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be taking Canada's side, so we can be competitors. < 1266714018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No! < 1266714045 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOSER < 1266714221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe I will. < 1266714229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That will be 3 AM, though; how long will it endure for? < 1266714248 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266714467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"While working on my book" Yudkowsky < 1266714468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1266714610 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: About three hours :P < 1266714642 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266714642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I won't be up at 6, that is for certain. < 1266715630 0 :Aszstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266715969 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://baetzler.de/humor/c_more_or_less.html < 1266716162 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1266716291 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266716839 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266717155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/user/Lojban The reddit-account equivalent of a "what". < 1266717590 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266718080 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E actually has a few comments with positive karma < 1266718095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure he really did get castrated, though < 1266718115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had some sort of "discussion" with him (basically I tried to probe him to figure out WTF he was doing) and based on that I think he did < 1266718175 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't get the golf site thing < 1266718215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other shticks he's had: most of reddit are single moms < 1266718223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure you can infer his most common metaschtick based on that. < 1266718381 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COUCH. < 1266718516 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :45 minutes 'til Canada starts whoopin' some UK arse! < 1266718587 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone a latex god < 1266718599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266718607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i can define me some macros yeah < 1266718675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to draw little trapezoids between lines, where the top and bottom parts are under/overlines to some parts of the adjacent lines < 1266718744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i thought you meant like < 1266718747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bdsm. < 1266718748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was punning. < 1266718770 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bdsm latex is boring. < 1266718843 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i need to show a bunch of rewrites on a string, and i want to be able to show clearly what is rewritten in the transition from line to line < 1266718968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SG-1 seasons 9 and 10: Worth watching? < 1266718979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh. < 1266719064 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266719984 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266721244 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CURLING TIME < 1266721326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link me to an online stream < 1266721329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'll watch < 1266721414 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know where TF the online stream is :P < 1266721451 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.curling.com < 1266721471 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Youre premiere curling director! < 1266721473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh! < 1266721474 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1266721567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey Gregor < 1266721568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Britain beats China 9-4 in men's Olympic curling‎ - 4 hours ago < 1266721574 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's China. < 1266721576 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WhoTF cares. < 1266721587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chinese players get executed for even THINKING of bad strategies. < 1266721713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::\ < 1266721746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what < 1266721762 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX! :( < 1266721833 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Olympics < 1266721834 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My Head < 1266723522 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Canada's ahead 2-0 after the second end :) < 1266723527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feck. < 1266723540 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's still plenty of game left. < 1266723543 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should set up his grandmother's TV so she can actually watch < 1266724436 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done < 1266724728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/835023.txt?key=hhgvq1jyj8oic2xkcdkog < 1266724731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quotient types in action. < 1266724762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arbitrary fractions + equality on fractions -> the rationals. Where two equal fractions are actually ===, i.e. "are the exact same value". < 1266724773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(= have the same normal form; the constructor is basically x -> Eq x x) < 1266725344 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-22-21.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266725507 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266725578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Gregor: augur: be impressed. < 1266725608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it < 1266725623 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:12 < alise> Sgeo: Gregor: augur: be impressed. < 1266725623 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:13 < augur> what is it < 1266725631 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha reminds me of when I used to paint < 1266725656 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know the typed lambda calculus < 1266725657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it defines the rationals in an almost painfully cool manner < 1266725670 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't read. Too busy watching curling. < 1266725678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: how do i do math in latex < 1266725683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You telepathied my message to your own mind, Gregor? < 1266725685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: >_< < 1266725688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: JFGI < 1266725690 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo sorry :( < 1266725700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did, but nothing useful comes up for the obvious reason < 1266725706 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo it's easy you will learn it in two mins < 1266725712 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to go eat < 1266725718 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo but it's like you have to know the details and there's a lot of them < 1266725745 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Nope, I'm just guessing what you might say and typing blind. < 1266725765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? < 1266725812 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Nope, don't have time. < 1266725837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Let's have sex! Everyone in the channel! < 1266725868 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmon alise < 1266725871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets have it < 1266725872 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1266725893 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, augur: I'm in! < 1266725897 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;x < 1266725906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: EXPOSED < 1266725907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i do math in latex. < 1266725917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...AND ERE*shot* < 1266725929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now let us steer away quickly from this topic forever. < 1266725935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or at least until I'm 16.) < 1266725942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: How do I shot web. In LaTeX. < 1266725944 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur math in latex is easy?? < 1266725949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: how do I program in Scheme? < 1266725953 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ \sqrt{2} $$ < 1266725959 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew it would come in handy one day! < 1266725967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: what would? < 1266725969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no, not how do i write math equations < 1266725974 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i do actual calculations < 1266725977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you don't < 1266725979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a typesetting system < 1266725982 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then. < 1266725984 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you CAN < 1266725986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you /can/, it's turing complete < 1266725989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd be an idiot < 1266725999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: are you writing a macro or sth? < 1266726013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think tex has sufficient drawing primitives and stuff that do that shit for you < 1266726046 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im writing a command that needs to draw some stuff automatically. its with tikz, so i know its possible. but im guessing its a tikz extension not a latex thing. < 1266726068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so read whatever tikz is's documentation < 1266726096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing so :P < 1266726123 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX is turing complete? < 1266726125 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1266726138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has macros. < 1266726139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1266726143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a particular name for using a non-esoteric language in an esoteric manner? < 1266726185 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish there was! < 1266726198 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abusing is the most common term I guess? but it's not quite perfect < 1266726201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Walling < 1266726203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after Larry < 1266726260 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Larry Wall is the Perl guy, right? As far as Perl is concerned, I know just that a common joke is that random strings will turn out to be syntactically correct < 1266726277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl is basically an abuse of itself. < 1266726278 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And variable names can start with $ or @ or something else I think < 1266726286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl = Walled Perl < 1266726297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An amazing recursive feat; too bad Perl itself can do nothing so grand. >:D < 1266726322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, he's a damned Christian! < 1266726345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am going to temporarily pretend that pikhq is not here.) < 1266726358 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd expect most Christians not to be damned, I guess < 1266726360 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1266726382 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm assuming you're not actually judging him or Perl based on his beliefs, just joking about doing so < 1266726383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((Well, at least pikhq didn't study linguistics to make a writing system for an African language so that they can translate the Bible in to it.)) < 1266726391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(((Missionaries. Fuck them!))) < 1266726415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Well, he's obviously irrational because of his beliefs, but that doesn't tend to matter in practice. Being a missionary, though, especially one of such magnitude, I can't forgive. < 1266726424 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think most missionary girls would let me < 1266726425 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1266726436 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah. < 1266726438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try using the missionary position. < 1266728527 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266734248 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266735029 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266735575 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266737236 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1266739199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266739200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266740906 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266741799 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-9-180.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266741857 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266743357 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266743389 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266743414 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266744003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266744858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266745129 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe1cfa00-120.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266745222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think people who kill babies for fun are evil < 1266745799 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266746211 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266746257 0 :oklofok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266746269 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266747341 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266747414 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266748947 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266748973 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266749434 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266749624 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266750008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i now have a program that will do my homework for me < 1266750129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, btw it was \vee not \cup, misremembered yesterday < 1266750224 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266750278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, \cup \cap \vee \wedge, always mix the first three up and I always have to look up what the last one was called -_- < 1266751178 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you mix up cup and cap? you don't drink coffee out of your hat do you? < 1266751212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater2, well that is the issue, I don't like coffee at all < 1266751216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor tea < 1266751255 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :juice < 1266751256 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :water < 1266751269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally I drink water, and usually from a glass, not a cup < 1266751277 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also: eating ice cream out of your wedgies is nasty < 1266751294 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ice cream fits in a Vee just well < 1266751301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266751313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab, restarting X for upgrade of it < 1266751322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err s/it/nvidia drivers/ < 1266751523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266751713 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1266751857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, ended up as reboot due to unexpected issues. < 1266752044 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266752125 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266752884 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266753068 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266753257 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266753338 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266753358 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266755999 0 :deschutron!~alex@115-166-55-84.ip.adam.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266756033 0 :deschutron!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266756074 0 :base3!~rk@host81-141-239-232.wlms-broadband.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266756079 0 :base3!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266756848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266756869 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1266757776 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266759137 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266759690 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266760480 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266760664 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266760856 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266761289 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266761980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :l < 1266762252 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-166-170-102.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266762659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topickale. < 1266762663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: who won? < 1266762681 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-41-247.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266762777 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266762997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: talk about how "you're a fool!" is more offensive than "you're a damn fool!" < 1266763175 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266763691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" On the nth turn, you have a 1/(n+1)^2 chance of winning and receiving $n. Else proceed next turn. How much would you pay to play this game?" < 1266763732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/" O/"O/ < 1266764528 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266764587 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is 1/(n+1)^2 left to right? < 1266764640 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks pretty left to right to me < 1266764652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no we are temporarily violating the laws of usual mathematics. < 1266764654 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed the context. :D < 1266764654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes) < 1266764658 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you start at the bottom and work upside down < 1266764659 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1266764660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the context was < 1266764661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : " On the nth turn, you have a 1/(n+1)^2 chance of winning and receiving $n. Else proceed next turn. How much would you pay to play this game?" < 1266764661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : s/" O/"O/ < 1266764949 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if n=2, then you would have a 0.111... chance? < 1266764961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. but remember that you must have played the previous turn first < 1266764966 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266764979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you won on the previous turn (which is the most likely turn to win on), the game will end < 1266764988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course then you only get a buck back < 1266764997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might even lose money, depending on how much it costs to play < 1266765002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(per-turn i assume) < 1266765044 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not going to bother writing a script, and assume that it's a pointless bet. < 1266765058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can tell you there that you are wrong. < 1266765067 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1266765077 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was always told to not gamble anyway. < 1266765089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expected return, bitch. < 1266765297 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266766308 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132582.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266766327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"SourceForge.net chooses Python, TurboGears and MongoDB to Redesign their Web Site" < 1266766329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How pointless. < 1266766335 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1266766696 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266766710 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266766893 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266767581 0 :zeotrope!~zeotrope@bas3-kitchener06-1096642024.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1266768502 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-6-236.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266769827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, prediction github, launchpad and so on will all hit the same destiny in 10 years or so < 1266769836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/on /on: / < 1266769838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What; Singularity? < 1266769842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266769846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, as sf.net < 1266769847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1266769853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I was just creatively misinterpreting. < 1266769857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I know < 1266769863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know you know. < 1266769888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspected you knew that I knew that you knew < 1266769917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I think I mixed up that one < 1266769926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh too much work figuring it out < 1266769978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl making food < 1266770354 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266770644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god dammit dependent types are awesome < 1266770749 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your face is awesome < 1266770750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : augur: talk about how "you're a fool!" is more offensive than "you're a damn fool!" < 1266770758 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okloping? < 1266770786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lessee, damn fool is swearing and swearing is not usually literally meant. while the former might be, and so is genuinely insulting. < 1266770795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You're a fucking cunt." < 1266770799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty offensive < 1266770805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's "just" swearing < 1266770818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's worse than "you're a cunt" < 1266770830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure but "cunt" is already swearing < 1266770863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You're a fucking idiot." < 1266770907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think just idiot is worse there... but i'm not native so < 1266770959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i was making a theory, since no one else did < 1266770972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, "fucking idiot" is definitely worse than "idiot" < 1266771002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case is it generally agreed that "fool" is worse than "damn fool"? < 1266771036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266771037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idiot is also common in swearing though < 1266771057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm going to kickflip off this building while eating a banana." "You're a fool." "Fuck you, man." < 1266771062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm going to kickflip off this building while eating a banana." "You're a damn fool." "Haha, I know, man." < 1266771079 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266771116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will wait for the scientific survey < 1266771225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: there seems to be a severe oklodeficiency here at the moment < 1266771264 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okokok < 1266771368 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266771931 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Canada, of course :) < 1266771938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Feck, eh. < 1266771975 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :totally 0 days since last anyone sighting. 'part from hcf, 2592 and a bit days. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1266772078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hcf fanclub < 1266773256 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1266773265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boom < 1266773322 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :boom of doom < 1266773786 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do we explode when pooppy leaves? < 1266773799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See quit message. < 1266773805 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see it. < 1266773809 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't answer the question :P < 1266773835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a categorial imperative < 1266773839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*categorical < 1266773850 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, good point :P < 1266774133 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266774164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266777305 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266777433 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266777453 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266777598 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266778391 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266779330 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1266781772 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266781964 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266782540 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266783673 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266786862 0 :augur!~augur@pool-71-163-203-39.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266787076 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266787418 0 :augur_!~augur@pool-71-163-203-39.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266787428 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1266788000 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266789387 0 :augur!~augur@pool-71-163-203-39.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266789669 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Men's curling, US vs UK RIGHT NOW < 1266789682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um okay what channel in the UK I mean I don't even < 1266789685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BBC or ITV or what < 1266789689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do I need some shitty sports channel < 1266789692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION curls his toes < 1266789712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BBC < 1266789723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok um as soon as I get the motivation to turn on the tv I will watch < 1266789727 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of < 1266789833 0 :augur_!~augur@pool-71-163-203-39.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266789836 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266789860 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266789971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"HTML6 is project of novations, allowing to write broken line from any to any HTML-element, to refer to place without attribute "id" and "name", to display table 3x100 of DBMS as table 10x10 of browser, to display hyper-cube as table, to hide and show HTML-elements. It proposes new control "picture" (attached graphic file is displayed in document), style for attribute to display its value. HTML6 enters new elements, which send data like form, but automatica < 1266789971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lly: to browse column of database and to browse tree of database. And many others." < 1266789976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatttttttttttttt < 1266790025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol same guy made "sql 5" http://sql50.euro.ru/site/sql50/en/author/index_eng.htm < 1266790046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unicode 7 (UPDATING): http://unicode70.euro.ru/ < 1266790053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... computer 2! also updating: http://computer20.euro.ru/ < 1266790061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first example: http://html6.by.ru/ < 1266790066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this guy may be crazy < 1266790079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://unicode70.euro.ru/site/unicode70/en/author/index_eng.htm old version of unicode 7, wtf < 1266790089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but is he CRAZY2 ? < 1266790115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have... i just the < 1266790125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg he broke alise < 1266790234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's < 1266790277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer 2.0: http://computer2.by.ru/site/computer20/en/author/index_eng.htm < 1266790279 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as we all suspected, alise was really an AI, and the russians developed an illogic bomb against it < 1266790346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the of it ⊥ → a ∴ a and AND it ¬a the < 1266790355 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266790367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit unicode again < 1266790430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://html6.by.ru/site/html60/ru/index_ru.htm&prev=_m < 1266790431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks he recalls such a pyramid of dots from principia mathematica < 1266790437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the glorious html html html html html 6 6 6 6 6 the html 6 < 1266790464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: therefore, therefore, therefore a a a a a a it therefore the operator of unicode look->[*&& p~2 :: Set === a and the \nPRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1266790488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1266790489 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266790503 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266791060 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266791461 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266791777 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric : For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1266791785 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a great quote < 1266791799 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if you know IWBTG < 1266791859 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I beat 3 bosses on it and then lost my save file >:( < 1266791899 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I've never actually tried to /play/ IWBTG < 1266791903 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's funny watching other people play < 1266791906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have played it < 1266791908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was really bad < 1266791914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, *IWBTG:TM:TG < 1266791921 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ? < 1266791933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dtsund*I Wanna Be The Guy: The Movie: The Game < 1266791941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, I did just invent targeted correction syntax.) < 1266791948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's the full name. < 1266791954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. < 1266791954 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266791970 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :132| For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. < 1266792071 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it looks like you can generate your own save files with I Wanna Be The Fix, maybe I'll try to finish it :) < 1266792312 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266792578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone beat iwbtg without any saves < 1266792579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1266792596 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some random japanese person < 1266792597 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266792601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266792617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone with the youtube moniker "tijitdamijit" < 1266792617 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, someone /else/? < 1266792624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is on impossible mode < 1266792626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := no saves < 1266792632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the only person to do it < 1266792634 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, you can save in impossible mode < 1266792640 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fake save point can apparently be used for one frame < 1266792641 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to a bug < 1266792643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1266792644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it wasn't < 1266792649 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd pretty much need to TAS to pull that one off < 1266792658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone managed it without that < 1266792658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266792659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnllGJy7lSk <-- part 1 < 1266792671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sped up x3 < 1266792674 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they do it in less than an hour? < 1266792691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, it's multiple videos and most (all?) are sped up because it's such a tedious game < 1266792730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this guy beat the fucking game without dying once I mean damn < 1266792768 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw a video of someone /else/ doing it in one save < 1266792772 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, without saving < 1266792776 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it clearly isn't impossible < 1266792786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impossible for mortals is presumably the implication < 1266792801 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I've heard, part of it's dexterity, but a lot is memorisation < 1266792808 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you know everything to do off by heart it's a lot easier < 1266792817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, platforms appear in disappear in basically random places < 1266792833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dexterity and a really good sense of time are the main other skills yeah < 1266792843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to time everything absolutely perfectly < 1266792849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and without really any time to just stand and think < 1266792860 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole game's deterministic, IIRC < 1266792868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't matter < 1266792873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You still need perfect timing < 1266792875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266792895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing a bot to play IWBTG would be godly < 1266792900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could even /speedrun/ it < 1266792909 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would basically be an IWBTG TAS < 1266792921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but less frustrating :P < 1266792935 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: have you seen the platform games designed to be TAS-only? < 1266792936 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about an esolang where the program is control input for a platform game? < 1266792944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: haha lol no < 1266792950 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're much much harder than IWBTG, obviously < 1266792951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean bastard mario and its ilk? < 1266792955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. really hard ones < 1266792957 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: mostly it's mario romhacks < 1266792959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or really ones meant to be tas-only < 1266792961 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even harder than those < 1266792966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah I know bastard mario isn't called that) < 1266792970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually even in english it's asshole mario) < 1266792971 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look for "Item Abuse TAS" on Youtube < 1266792977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but remembering the japanese name is far too boring) < 1266792986 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone made a level where you had to perform every single known glitch to solve it < 1266792990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266793008 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most of them require perfection to the frame < 1266793120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266793131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a game where you can't kill any of the enemies would be interesting < 1266793138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just have to avoid them while considering every other part of the game < 1266793178 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, there are loads of games like that < 1266793194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but not platformers afaik < 1266793342 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moving killing-things is pretty common though, so isn't that just a platform game without enemies but with slightly more moving-killing-things in it? < 1266793362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no, because moving-killing-things generally don't follow and shoot at you < 1266793371 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beh, you just made me watch Item Abuse for the fifth or sixth time < 1266793518 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do I keep randomly disconnecting? < 1266793617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you? < 1266793691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION downloads IWBTG in hopes of playing it via wine < 1266793705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since when is it 68 megs? < 1266793717 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a demo, with a few levels, and the full version < 1266793724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the full on < 1266793725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*one < 1266793728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But 68 megs? < 1266793743 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* Is that more or less than you were expecting? < 1266793788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more < 1266793830 0 :fxkr!~fxkr@unaffiliated/fxkr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266793847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fxkr < 1266793855 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1266793864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you look new. so sacrifice goats! < 1266793879 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sacrifices two goats < 1266793929 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i'm not new, i just a) havent been here for >= 1 year and b) have never used this nickname here ;) < 1266793939 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least iirc) < 1266793944 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, and your /whois doesn't give anything away < 1266793948 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's only going to make fxkr thing it's a channel for esotericism.. oh < 1266793951 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was your nick last time, or would you rather we didn't know? < 1266793955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then clearly either you must tell us who you are < 1266793959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or we will have to forcibly extract this knowledge < 1266793966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: the latter is obviously not an option < 1266793970 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is for me < 1266793973 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: no problem with you knowing, but i just dont have a damn clue < 1266793979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably work it out based on how he talks < 1266793987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fxkr: Are you that german dude? < 1266794011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be jix < 1266794018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is still here < 1266794019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, no < 1266794020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another one < 1266794022 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what makes you think i'm german? < 1266794024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he was like nooga but less annoying < 1266794035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fxkr: pattern recognition on your name, use of ;) and omitting of apostrophes < 1266794036 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fxkr: your +1 timezone? < 1266794039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a heuristic, perhaps it's wrong. < 1266794049 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of other countries in +1, though < 1266794051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, nooga is polish ;) < 1266794055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: *you're, presumably < 1266794058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a < 1266794062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: /like/ nooga < 1266794063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but less annoying < 1266794066 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, the +1 timezone belongs to him < 1266794070 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not alone, but at least partially < 1266794078 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see anything wrong with what I wrote < 1266794081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it was an answer to a question < 1266794081 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266794102 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another guess: kipple < 1266794125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kipple wouldn't forget his name; he was a permanent fixture. < 1266794129 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: yep its +1 timezone.. (+2 sometimes, because of this daylight saving time stuff) < 1266794138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And his absence has been more than a year! < 1266794141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fxkr: so what country? < 1266794150 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: :P < 1266794156 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: behind you < 1266794159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fxkr said >= 1 year, not = < 1266794161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : scarf: no problem with you knowing, but i just dont have a damn clue < 1266794166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you didn't mind us knowing. < 1266794172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the big bang was >= 1 year ago too < 1266794179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kipple's been away since like 2005 < 1266794189 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i just meant i would tell you if i knew < 1266794194 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that @ nickname < 1266794206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we should clearly try and discover your nick! < 1266794209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now give us information :| < 1266794210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thematrixguy or whoever... < 1266794225 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@country: dont really care, but not telling you is the more interesting option < 1266794240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that someone who kept forgetting his password and changing because of that < 1266794269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... that south african, hasn't been here in a while has he? < 1266794275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what was his nick < 1266794282 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266794283 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hiato < 1266794287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266794326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about the most interesting country we've had in that timezone < 1266794347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm there was a spaniard at one time wasn't there < 1266794354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't quite sure < 1266794363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thematrixeatsyou is gm|lap < 1266794365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka greasemonkey < 1266794367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266794379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's the guy that raged at you because he wanted a non-pd license on the wiki and you said no :P < 1266794388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka ben russell now) < 1266794396 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266794410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fxkr: anyway what langs do you like < 1266794416 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: nice try < 1266794424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what? < 1266794440 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: eh wait, i thought you meant natural languages.. < 1266794447 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266794448 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, brainfuck for starters < 1266794455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, one of the boring ones! < 1266794458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266794460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't want no steenking natural languages here, right augur < 1266794481 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there are some esoterical natural languages < 1266794482 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"natural" < 1266794485 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :french springs to mind < 1266794581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hey, sup < 1266794583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess we can scratch of french now... < 1266794584 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natural languages huh < 1266794589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AWESOME LETS TALK NATLANGS < 1266794590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: just trolling you < 1266794603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*out < 1266794658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fxkr: maybe you're andreou, that would be sorta ironic < 1266794675 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, definitely not < 1266794682 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something i should know about him? < 1266794694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the channel founder who hasn't been around for years < 1266794709 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1266794719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1266794721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not that hcf guy in the topic? < 1266794724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha no < 1266794730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hcf is the author of clog < 1266794738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait the previous topic < 1266794739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not administrated by him, or anyone, any more, though) < 1266794748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(far just reboots the server occasionally) < 1266794762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: talk about how "you're a fool" is more offensive than "you're a damn fool" < 1266794767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to "you're an idiot" vs "you're a fucking idiot" < 1266794778 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is it now < 1266794783 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not the kind of linguistics i do < 1266794791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care, make it into how like < 1266794797 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- afk, i'll read the scrollback during tomorrows lecture though < 1266794798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expressing contempt through added expletives < 1266794803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only works when your morphological syntactic component < 1266794804 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not my kind of linguistics. < 1266794806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is remorphic < 1266794806 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please dont write more than i can read in 4 hours < 1266794808 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :D < 1266794811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it totally applies then < 1266794813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitch < 1266794820 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remorphic? < 1266794861 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266794894 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is making up words like linguists do ;D < 1266794904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhhh ice burn < 1266794940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hides the zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms < 1266794960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was category theory, obviously < 1266794964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/?title=Zygohistomorphic_prepromorphisms&action=history oh how we adore roconnor < 1266794985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it linguistics? or possibly, _both_ < 1266795024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curry-howard-augur isomorphism < 1266795055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there's another third name sometimes used < 1266795057 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266795074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah apparently linguistics<->logic < 1266795081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so therefore linguistics<->LC < 1266795098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambek was it < 1266795108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1266795122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wasn't a question < 1266795128 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, semantics ~ logic, and syntax ~ logic < 1266795129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah :P < 1266795134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yeah yeah whatever < 1266795136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should use punctuation sometimes < 1266795137 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266795300 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im thinking of doing a series of blog posts on formal grammars from a proof theoretic perspective < 1266795431 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good!! < 1266795690 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266795755 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is oklopol < 1266795832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklogone < 1266795834 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266795872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: he has too much of an interesting life to come on much nowadays < 1266795874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also too much uni work < 1266795878 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : MissPiggy: there seems to be a severe oklodeficiency here at the moment < 1266795899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hasn't been seen since < 1266795962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh he's been here this weekend... < 1266795964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1266795994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yesterday, yes < 1266796017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266797050 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266801701 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266802934 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266803587 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266804113 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just got the backorder email for the Barbie computer engineer (it's not really on backorder, it's preorder, but whatever). The product name there: "BRB I CAN BE DOLL computer eng" < 1266804144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: who won curling < 1266804150 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UK. < 1266804150 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1266804151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... :D < 1266804153 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1266804157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'ma buy that doll < 1266804166 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1266804169 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The BRB I CAN BE DOLL < 1266804171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, I can be doll < 1266804177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IF I JUST TRY < 1266804181 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much do you want to bet that I won't get my HW done? < 1266804191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Horse whaling? < 1266804194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure you can even whale a horse. < 1266804194 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: YOUR HOMEWORK < 1266804220 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@174-16-215-143.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266804898 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266804966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266806017 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266806100 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266806220 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266806640 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is so tired < 1266806650 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an exam tomorrow, and homework due tomorrow < 1266808351 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266808436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what time is it there? < 1266808447 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now, 10:13. < 1266808450 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PM < 1266808642 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-202-87.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266808645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3:16 am here. I don't know when I have to be up, because the place is run by incompetent fools that do not tell you when they will arrive. < 1266808659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Until the morning, that is; add a few hours to whatever they tell you, and that's when they'll arrive. < 1266808671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Earliest I have to be up is probably 9:30, but I don't care. < 1266808799 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266809225 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266809990 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-170-56.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266810009 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266810272 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266811066 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-195-224.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266812426 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1266812524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, so ends another week. < 1266812533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I believe, is the only one active, so... anything to say? < 1266812554 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope your situation improves soon. < 1266812564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funny. So do I. :P < 1266812571 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266812581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, see you guys on Friday. < 1266812592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess one could say that this is the end of Dispatch 3, though I've never really thought of them as having endings per se. < 1266812603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a rather appropriately me-like thought to end my stay with. Bye! < 1266812607 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266813006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266813743 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266814917 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266815007 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266817925 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266818040 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1266818136 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266819176 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266821154 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266821281 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266821449 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266821468 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1266821469 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@wikipedia/PuzzletChung JOIN :#esoteric < 1266821988 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266822138 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266822156 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266822418 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266823484 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266825087 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266825586 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266825599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266825600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266825873 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266828225 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266829403 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132FA4.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266829505 0 :zeotrope!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266830354 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266831329 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266832133 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266832359 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266832404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hopes freefall isn't approaching a downer ending :( < 1266832450 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1266833370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266833386 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266833402 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GIGs minus the initial terminal in the push rule = turing complete < 1266833422 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should implement this < 1266834178 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1266834290 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266835400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266836598 0 :scarf_!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266836607 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266836617 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1266837274 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: GIG? < 1266838295 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266838623 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266841201 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-166-170-102.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266844026 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266846827 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-203.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266847287 0 :scarf_!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-bgqbanvyibvvjbqd JOIN :#esoteric < 1266849540 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266850231 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266850519 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone here remember why Java has 13 months in a year? < 1266850522 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to know, but forgot < 1266850531 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it may be something about lunar calendar compatibility, or something) < 1266850871 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266850891 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266851065 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266851408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf_, discworld year? < 1266851427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, how many months was that < 1266851507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yeah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld_%28world%29#Calendar < 1266851514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf_, clearly for compat with that :) < 1266851582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when I googled I thought I would get an lspace link, but first hit was wikipedia, heh) < 1266851607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Discworld_calendar seems somewhat more comprehensive though < 1266852379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yes, the Undecimber. < 1266852386 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sort of explained in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undecimber < 1266852396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lunar calendar compatibility indeed. < 1266852432 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You won't get the 13th month out of a Java Calendar object that's using the standard Gregorian calendar. < 1266852575 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1266852594 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it also returns 12 if you ask for getMaximum(Calendar.MONTH). < 1266852932 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266853423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is january 0? < 1266854765 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266855484 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266856853 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1266857204 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266857345 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266857354 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266857995 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266860148 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1266860181 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266860268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, TURT headings are counter clockwise right? < 1266860339 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266860347 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-134.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266861021 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266861169 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1266861535 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266861580 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-242-239.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266861725 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-203.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266861809 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266861909 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1266861959 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-212-31.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266863187 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266863363 0 :Sgeo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266863545 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266863548 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266863740 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266863790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. "The first month of the year in the Gregorian and Julian calendars is JANUARY which is 0; the last depends on the number of months in a year." < 1266863832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why are they SHOUTING the name of the MONTH? < 1266863861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because in Java, CONSTANTS tend to be SHOUTED. < 1266863876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but that seems so C PREPROCESSOR < 1266863880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than nice enums < 1266863883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1266863902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not nice enums, though; they're just integer constants. (Still, I think real enums get NOISY names too.) < 1266863917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't java have enums? < 1266863926 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but they were added in Java 1.5/5.0 or so. < 1266863931 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enums are fun < 1266863932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266863938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're basically static arrays of generic objects < 1266863941 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you just compare pointers < 1266863951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, wtf < 1266863959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not basically map to integers with type checking < 1266863960 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're a lot more complicated than C enums, though, since you can defined methods and everything for "enum classes". < 1266864006 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public enum InputFormat { BZIP2, GZIP, TTYREC, SCRIPT }; < 1266864014 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^-- an actual line of code from a Java program I'm writing < 1266864019 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so they can be simple too. < 1266864040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can define constructors, and then list arguments there in the list of enum values. < 1266864045 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, due to namespacing, you have to call the actual formats TtyrecAnalyzer.InputFormat.BZIP2 or whatever < 1266864115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though erlang's record syntax (somewhat like struct) is noisy (one of the few things that irritate me with erlang), this is still a lot less code than would have been required in for example C: < 1266864120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add_circle(#turtle{pen=false}, Drawing = #drawing{}) -> < 1266864120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Drawing; < 1266864120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add_circle(#turtle{pos=Pos,colour=Colour, pen=true}, Drawing = #drawing{nodes=N}) -> < 1266864120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Circle={circle,Colour,Pos}, < 1266864120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Drawing#drawing{nodes=[Circle|N]}. < 1266864137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that last one could be compressed to one line without causing much readability issues < 1266864142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, I have (stripping comments): public enum Side { BLUE, RED, NONE; public Side opposite() { if (this == BLUE) return RED; else if (this == RED) return BLUE; else return NONE; } } < 1266864156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That lets you say BLUE.opposite() or some-such. < 1266864173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he < 1266864174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh* < 1266864180 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or, in general, when you have a Side foo, foo.opposite(); I doubt BLUE.opposite() gets used much, since it's the same as RED.) < 1266864185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is NONE supposed to happen? < 1266864194 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, sometimes. < 1266864200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, such as? < 1266864203 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's used for the winner in a draw, and so on. < 1266864222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so blue and red indicates winner/looser? < 1266864231 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're just the names of the sides. < 1266864245 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a blue player and a red player, and a getWinner() method that returns RED, BLUE or NONE (if draw). < 1266864245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you mean like that < 1266864249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like winner = none < 1266864251 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1266864261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, still I like the way you SHOUT the sides < 1266864298 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also used by getOwner() for board squares part of the no man's land in the middle of the board (the game board is divided to three parts; home area of the blue player, home area of the red player, and the part in the middle owned by nobody.) < 1266864308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that thing < 1266864309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266864333 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm board < 1266864353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: I will split you in three parts, then. < 1266864381 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266864457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, karate style? < 1266864470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or whoever it is that do that sort of stuff) < 1266864616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:41:55 even though erlang's record syntax (somewhat like struct) is noisy (one of the few things that irritate me with erlang), this is still a lot less code than would have been required in for example C: < 1266864620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:42:00 add_circle(#turtle{pen=false}, Drawing = #drawing{}) -> < 1266864645 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you make a record syntax _less_ noisy than that? it's almost the same format as haskell's... < 1266864662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose you could lose the # < 1266864693 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the constructors, you can do something like: public enum Foo { BAR(42, "pink"), BAZ(6667, "octarine"); public Foo(int price, String color) { this.price = price; this.color = color; } public int price; public String color; }; and then use BAR.price and BAZ.color around. < 1266864713 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(My only example for that sort of stuff is from the messy messy GUI parts of that game, and it's too messy to present here.) < 1266864928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : how do you make a record syntax _less_ noisy than that? it's almost the same format as haskell's... <-- it is? < 1266864928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266864939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought haskell would have used something lean < 1266864940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1266864946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inferring what sort of record it was < 1266864961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since for erlang it is basically a tagged tuple < 1266864970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turtle{pen=False} would be perfectly fine haskell < 1266864988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh haskell cannot do that because one data type can have several constructors < 1266865000 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PFH < 1266865024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with shared fields, as long as they are the same type < 1266865026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well erlang record syntax checks that the first thing in the tuple is the correct atom (it should be the record type). < 1266865042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway, you just did that there < 1266865047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Turtle{pen=False}" < 1266865065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you skipped what sort of record it was, didn't you? < 1266865074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or do you make types upper case? < 1266865080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um Turtle is the data constructor < 1266865088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, blink? < 1266865090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and can be for only one data type < 1266865094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was pattern matching < 1266865098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not constructing a new one < 1266865101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ^ < 1266865116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er what was < 1266865122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : add_circle(#turtle{pen=false}, Drawing = #drawing{}) -> < 1266865132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bit is matching against the parameter < 1266865141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266865143 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the longest registered MIME type is apparently "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" < 1266865154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ms office related? < 1266865163 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, OOXML to be precise < 1266865166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, i think that would still be Turtle{pen=False} in haskell < 1266865169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsurprising < 1266865174 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a glossary inside a OOXML word document < 1266865186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, do they have a length limit? < 1266865195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and indeed i think haskell lacks a way to not specify the data constructor there < 1266865198 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text is the ODF equivalent < 1266865201 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspect not < 1266865205 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on that monstrosity < 1266865285 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266865357 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266865384 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266865484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and here is a funny thing < 1266865494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the inferred type spec for that function is: < 1266865496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-spec add_circle(#turtle{},#drawing{nodes::[{'circle',{_,_,_},{_,_}} | {'line',{_,_,_},[any()]}]}) -> #drawing{nodes::[{'circle',{_,_,_},{_,_}} | {'line',{_,_,_},[any()]}]}. < 1266865505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using the dialyzer tool) < 1266865516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can declare aliases thankfully < 1266865527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that will end up relatively short when I write in what I want < 1266865604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact: < 1266865606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-spec add_circle(turtle(),drawing()) -> drawing(). < 1266865619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway most of that type info is in the record definition already < 1266865657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : application/vnd.oasis.opendocument.text is the ODF equivalent <-- where does it say it's a glossary though? < 1266865705 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it doesn't have a separate MIME type for glossaries < 1266865713 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be like, say, C having a separate MIME type for functions < 1266865780 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266865798 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: nap time < 1266865838 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, AnMaster: RFC4288 ("Media Type Specifications and Registration Procedures"): 4.2. ("Naming Requirements"): "Type and subtype names MUST conform to the following ABNF: type-name = reg-name; subtype-name = reg-name; reg-name = 1*127reg-name-chars; ..." < 1266865841 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1266865846 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it has a length limit of 127 chars. < 1266865864 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not strictly speaking part of the MIME spec, just the RFC that specifies what IANA wants to register, though. < 1266865887 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c char[] x = "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"; printf("%d",(int)sizeof c); < 1266865900 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1266865904 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1266865908 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c char[] x = "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"; printf("%d",(int)sizeof x); < 1266865909 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :char x[], you mean. < 1266865909 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1266865911 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did I do that? < 1266865918 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c char x[] = "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"; printf("%d",(int)sizeof x); < 1266865919 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right < 1266865922 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :85 < 1266865923 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been teaching Java all day < 1266865942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the "application" and "vnd...+xml" are the "type" and "subtype" parts, so they both can be 127 characters. < 1266865990 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anything have anything but "text" or "application" as the type? < 1266865998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :image/png? < 1266866007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, forgot about those < 1266866029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not do the obvious thing instead: < 1266866077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IANA has defined seven top-level types: text, image, audio, video, application, multipart, message. < 1266866104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"ad+y1-.a,@ < 1266866105 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :83 < 1266866118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1266866135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the minus 1 was in error < 1266866138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"ad+y.a,@ < 1266866138 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 < 1266866151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, still your char count includes an ending \0 I think < 1266866152 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%d", (int)sizeof("application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml")); < 1266866153 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :85 < 1266866186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell length "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" < 1266866187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the prefix of HackEgo? < 1266866187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the ending \0 is part of the length. < 1266866191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot < 1266866195 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 < 1266866195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :` < 1266866196 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266866203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1266866204 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1266866218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -l < 1266866219 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1266866221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266866223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls bin/ < 1266866223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -w < 1266866224 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram < 1266866225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -n < 1266866227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1266866230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266866234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266866238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -c < 1266866239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe? < 1266866239 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266866239 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1266866240 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 < 1266866243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266866252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one was which? < 1266866271 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will NEVER know < 1266866275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1266866278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I run them again < 1266866280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -c < 1266866281 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 < 1266866286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -n < 1266866287 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266866290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -l < 1266866291 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1266866297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo -n "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml" | wc -w < 1266866298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266866298 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1266866312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost always use wc -l < 1266866317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is why I forgot the other ones < 1266866323 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 "NRTS"4(n"application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"N.a,@ < 1266866323 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 < 1266866327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266866336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the befunge solution I had was shortest so far < 1266866347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why not use y (23) ? < 1266866351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for size of TOSS < 1266866356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is faster too < 1266866367 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!ul (84)S < 1266866375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need for function pointers, no need to actually count to a zero on stack < 1266866382 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (84)S < 1266866383 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 < 1266866384 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I win < 1266866386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, shortest-non-cheating < 1266866388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1266866405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml"ad+y.@ < 1266866405 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 < 1266866425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means, as little program code apart from the string as possible < 1266866429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, anyway: < 1266866481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 c7*,@ < 1266866481 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T < 1266866484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266866486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge98 c7*.@ < 1266866486 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :84 < 1266866487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1266866491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that is equally short < 1266866506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf +[>+<,]>-.!application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml < 1266866507 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T < 1266866516 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't mind the encoding of the value as an ASCII char. < 1266866521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I do mind that < 1266866524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convert it to integer < 1266866545 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that program would either be trivial, or fail utterly, in INTERCAL < 1266866554 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because all known methods of representing strings require knowing their length in advance < 1266866573 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else just padding out a really large buffer < 1266866578 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of, like C without string literals < 1266866586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, doesn't that make intercal sub-bf-complete? < 1266866616 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266866626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, then it must be possible in some way < 1266866634 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can emulate a Minsky machine and use that to store the strings < 1266866637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, anyway why not use some sort of tree structure? < 1266866644 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except, ouch, it's easier just to calculate the length in advance < 1266866664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one is the minsky machine now again? < 1266866676 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bignum BF with a fixed-length tape < 1266866697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266866714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, anyway why not use a tree structure of some sort to store them in intercal? < 1266866728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course implementing such a tree structure would be horrible < 1266866735 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: have you ever /tried/ to do a tree structure in INTERCAL? < 1266866744 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only plausible method I can think of is encoding it into an array < 1266866755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, no. But my point is that once it is done it could be made into a library < 1266866766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it treelib.i or whatever < 1266866768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, the IANA mime type application form -- http://www.iana.org/cgi-bin/mediatypes.pl -- has the subtype field defined as so you couldn't have registered that thing with it. (Technically you get up to 64, because the "vnd." part is selected from a drop-down thing.) < 1266866804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, edit the html code using something like firebug? < 1266866813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and see if the server handles the longer length < 1266866844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it would be hilarious if Microsoft had done that. < 1266866865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that mime type registered though? < 1266866900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't scarf say it was? < 1266866911 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw on a forum that it was < 1266866915 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Are arrays also fixed size in INTERCAL, or can they expand? < 1266866928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be. < 1266866929 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's like C; they're fixed-size upon creation, but you can create them dynamically as the program runs < 1266866936 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.iana.org/assignments/media-types/application/ is the definitive list. < 1266866937 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, k. < 1266866942 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you want a bigger array, you create a bigger array then copy your data into it < 1266866973 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a cap at 2^32 max size for any dimension, though; INTERCAL is TC, but not because of the arrays (you have to mess about with scoping to get TCness) < 1266867039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: There are two other types that are equally long, though: "application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.pivotCacheDefinition+xml" and "vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.volatileDependencies+xml". < 1266867056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, you actually checked? < 1266867057 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1266867062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, both are ooxml crap yeah < 1266867070 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only checked the "application/" category, though. < 1266867103 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kind-of shocked that you can just fill in a form to apply for a MIME type < 1266867141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fis@eris:~$ cat tmp.txt | awk '{print $1;}' | perl -ne 'print length($_), " $_";' | sort -nr | head < 1266867141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :73 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document.glossary+xml < 1266867141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :73 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.volatileDependencies+xml < 1266867141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :73 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.pivotCacheDefinition+xml < 1266867141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :71 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.presentationml.presentation.main+xml < 1266867142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :70 vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.spreadsheetml.pivotCacheRecords+xml < 1266867146 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the top-five. < 1266867157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, use cut for that < 1266867158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not awk < 1266867161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1266867164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it all in awk < 1266867165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is better < 1266867188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and can't you do that awk thing in perl anyway? < 1266867202 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, awk and perl in the same pipeline scores positive points in my book. < 1266867214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it's like UUOC to me < 1266867225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awk and sed would have been fine < 1266867235 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can probably do the whole thing in awk, or in perl; it's just that I build my pipelines in stages. < 1266867235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed and perl... maaaaybe < 1266867254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah but use the right tool for the job < 1266867268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A subshell to compile and run a C program on the fly for one of the pipe stages would be the icing on the cake. < 1266867270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for just getting first field with no other processing: cut < 1266867277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, XD < 1266867327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would argue that for a one-off pipeline, the "right tool" is the one you can think of fastest. Anyway, cut fails because it generates loads of empty fields for consecutive delimiters, and those lines had a bit differing number of preceding whitespace in them. < 1266867349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1266867374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you download it as plain text? < 1266867402 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a copy-paste from a browser. < 1266867415 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow, yes, in this case awk '{print length($1)" "$1;}' would have made more sense. < 1266867434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I blame the way I think. < 1266867469 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Are those the longest MIME type names in there? < 1266867486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :longer if you include the application/ < 1266867513 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the length limits are defined separately for the "application" part and that subtype part. < 1266867529 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would guess those are the longest in general, but I'll check the other top-level types too. < 1266867532 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But usually one won't see any "exotic" types. < 1266867550 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Longest one in audio/ is "audio/vnd.sealedmedia.softseal.mpeg". < 1266867589 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"image/vnd.sealedmedia.softseal.jpg" -- heh, sealedmedia is quite a leader in these. < 1266867609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"message/global-disposition-notification" < 1266867625 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"model/vnd.parasolid.transmit.binary" < 1266867646 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"multipart/voice-message" < 1266867666 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"text/vnd.net2phone.commcenter.command" < 1266867675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is sealedmedia? < 1266867688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it smells drm a long way away that name < 1266867690 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"video/vnd.nokia.interleaved-multimedia" < 1266867696 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, Nokia slipped one in too < 1266867728 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The image/ one was actually a shared win with "vnd.sealedmedia.softseal.gif". < 1266867752 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, are they repackaging file extensions that already exist as MIME types? < 1266867780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has their DRM wrapper around it, I guess. < 1266867780 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Embrayce and exshtend. < 1266867794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, googling indicates it is drm crap < 1266867797 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oracle Information Rights Management (IRM, formerly SealedMedia) is a new form of information security technology that secures and tracks sensitive digital information everywhere it is stored and used." < 1266867811 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That WP clip starts like a press release/ad copy. < 1266867821 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did Oracle buy them? < 1266867824 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Conventional information management products only manage documents, emails and web pages while they remain stored within server-side repositories. Oracle Information Rights Management uses encryption to extend the management of information beyond the repository - to every copy of an organization's most sensitive information, everywhere it is stored and used - on end user desktops, laptops and mobile wireless devices, in other repositories, inside and outside t < 1266867824 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he firewall." < 1266867828 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And continues that way too. < 1266867840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I WANT IT I WANT IT < 1266867847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is there any advertisment template on it? < 1266867847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Oracle believes that cp does not exist. < 1266867848 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's to stop you juts taking a screenshot of these DRMed PNG files? < 1266867850 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just < 1266867852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not I suggest you put one there < 1266867856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Jack shit. < 1266867862 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, there doesn't seem to be. < 1266867869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, add one then < 1266867869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just listen to this: "Oracle Information Rights Management introduces some new elements into information workflows, such as encrypting ("sealing") and classifying documents, emails and web pages, and the requirement to install Oracle IRM Desktop agent software on every end user device on which sealed information is created or used. But the disruptions to existing workflows are sufficiently small, and the benefits so considerable, that information righ < 1266867869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ts management is now routinely being adopted by enterprises and government agencies worldwide to secure their most confidential information." < 1266867890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blergh < 1266867906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's copy-paste directly from http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/content-management/irm/index.html < 1266867909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266867915 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: tag it copyvio < 1266867916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :advertisment and a few more at least < 1266867927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, not advertisment? < 1266867928 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy way to get rid of a c&ped press release < 1266867931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266867933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266867936 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you could use both, but copyvio's a /much/ more urgent tag < 1266867946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, right < 1266867973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, definitely copyvio. < 1266867976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, both can't hurt! < 1266868044 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at the history: if the page wasn't edited afterwards, {{db-copyvio|url=http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/content-management/irm/index.html}} should be the only tag you need if it's as blatant as that < 1266868120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it has two edits; one by DrilBot fixing two [[foo|foo]] links to just [[foo]], one "Removed category Information Rights Management (using HotCat)". < 1266868155 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither counts < 1266868167 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for preventing speedy copyvio, that is < 1266868224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll see if I can manage to successfully add that. Wikipedia makes me nervous, though. < 1266868238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is hotcat? < 1266868244 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might get someone yelling at you for not warning the user in question < 1266868249 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: an interface to the category system < 1266868259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is db-copyvio btw? < 1266868263 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's basically a bit faster than typing out by hand < 1266868272 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mentally read "db" as "delete because" < 1266868275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah < 1266868281 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the implication that it should be deleted Right Now, thank you very much < 1266868292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I tried "database" and "decibel" < 1266868303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither fitted :) < 1266868307 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: The user in question seems to have disappeared; at least the user link is red, and his/her talk-page just has someone complaining about adding random links to the Information Management topics. < 1266868311 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it adds the page to one of the top-priority admin action categories < 1266868328 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: fine, then you can warn them without worrying about getting a reply < 1266868338 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266868350 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(something may be wrong with my reasoning here...) < 1266868472 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266868487 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266868610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone tell me if this logic is correct < 1266868611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is < 1266868615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm somewhat tired: < 1266868617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normalise_angle(Heading) when Heading < 0 -> < 1266868617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Heading rem 360 + 360; < 1266868617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normalise_angle(Heading) -> < 1266868617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Heading rem 360. < 1266868636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heading is in degrees and is an integer < 1266868644 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: depends on what rem does < 1266868651 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really hard to tell, as it differs from lang to lang < 1266868659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, reminder. Erlang's name for modulo < 1266868668 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with negative numbers, I mean; with positives, it's obvious) < 1266868673 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does rem handle signs? < 1266868678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266868696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1> -301 rem 300. < 1266868697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 < 1266868709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2> -299 rem 300. < 1266868709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-299 < 1266868724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that answer the question? < 1266868729 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then your logic looks right to me. I'm tired too though :) < 1266868737 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, same here, and even same disclaimer < 1266868740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also I don't know if this is specified < 1266868748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if it just happens to be that way < 1266868752 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's not specified you're better off avoiding it < 1266868753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that C99 modulo? < 1266868757 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we have a Scheme interpreter here? < 1266868765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, try #irp < 1266868766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1266868767 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while x < 0 x += 360 < 1266868784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, efunge is bignum < 1266868787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could take some time < 1266868832 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you anticipating having to normalize 10^61 ? :) < 1266868834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it would have to be tail recursive < 1266868841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, 10^-61 maybe < 1266868845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266868849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-10^61 < 1266868850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1266868852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1266868856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but yes, it might happen < 1266868859 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 % would indeed give -1 there. < 1266868861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I want it to work smoothly < 1266868903 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I meant was that if it's not defined, you're taking your chances. If you want to ensure correctness you'll need to compute remainder yourself somehow. < 1266868929 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever "correctness" means w.r.t. Befunge-98, given my sloppy spec :) < 1266868936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why couldn't the degrees be a power of two < 1266868947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then some tricky bitshifting would have solved it < 1266868970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway I assume TURT is counter clockwise like the normal math notation? < 1266868972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99's % is defined so that (a/b)*b + a%b == a as long as a/b is representable. And / truncates towards zero, so (-301/300)*300 = (-1)*300 = -300, and from -300 + x = -301 → x = -1. < 1266868997 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sounds like a reasonable assumption. It wasn't intended to be evilly weird... < 1266869016 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait < 1266869031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well the fact that it is global "To keep this fingerprint tame, a single Turtle and display is defined to be shared amongst all IP's. The turtle is not defined to wrap if it goes out of bounds (after all this interface might just as well be used to drive a real turtle robot.) " < 1266869040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really makes it very feral < 1266869045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a efunge point of view < 1266869049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tame for cfunge of course < 1266869064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite hilarious that per-ip state is trivial in efunge but somewhat messier in cfunge < 1266869070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reverse applies for global state < 1266869103 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a _real_ turtle robot would wrap after 40000000 m < 1266869107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw if it isn't counter-clockwise both me and Deewiant will personally murder you, same for a few other funge authors I suspect < 1266869111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it would? < 1266869121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh going around earth < 1266869122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1266869126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, approximately < 1266869126 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: beautiful < 1266869135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: exactly by the original definition of a metre < 1266869137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but the cable wouldn't be long enough < 1266869138 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming it can travel through oceans safely. < 1266869139 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the definition has since changed < 1266869143 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's a turtle, it can swim < 1266869152 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Indeed. < 1266869175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, which one is turtle and which one is tortoise? They have the same name in Swedish < 1266869179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this always confuses me < 1266869197 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And does the real turtle robot also actually teleport on the T command, instead of just boringly moving without the pen down? < 1266869215 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tortoises, like porpoises, live in water < 1266869225 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but which is the porpoise and which is the dolphin? < 1266869230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266869249 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on the variant of English. < 1266869252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw, how is the pen colour and paper colour supposed to work for real turtle bots? < 1266869258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would they have ink mixers in them? < 1266869274 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament is lying. ban him! < 1266869287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266869290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tortoises or land turtles are land-dwelling reptiles of the family of Testudinidae, ..." < 1266869290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :British English calls them turtles if they live at sea, terrapins if they live in fresh or brackish water, and tortoises if they live on land. < 1266869293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says wikipedia < 1266869298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1266869300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also says < 1266869302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This article is in need of attention from an expert on the subject. WikiProject Tree of Life may be able to help recruit one. (November 2008)" < 1266869310 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the "clear with color" command on a real turtle bot will paint the whole earth with that color. < 1266869319 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try not to paint everything pink. < 1266869320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hehe < 1266869327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ultramarine? < 1266869330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i sincerely doubt it's particular piece of information they need an expert for < 1266869335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it's that < 1266869335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :American English calls them turtles if they live in water, turtles or tortoises if they live on land, and terrapins if they're the diamondback terrapin. < 1266869351 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know about "normal math notation", but in navigation, headings go up clockwise, not counter-clockwise. < 1266869393 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no < 1266869394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you know around the unit circle? < 1266869398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan, but the cable wouldn't be long enough <-- sheesh AnMaster, this is the wireless age < 1266869398 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: On the other hand, you have query heading return "0=east", which sounds more like the "normal math notation". < 1266869406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the drawings made by one TURT will be inverted by another TURT. < 1266869409 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chaos will ensue. < 1266869417 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you have ops, you can ban me < 1266869420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, quite < 1266869427 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it were "navigationary", you'd think that 0=north. < 1266869433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes < 1266869436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that isn't the cas < 1266869438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :case* < 1266869443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says 0deg = east < 1266869445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the spec < 1266869451 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cpressey, btw, how is the pen colour and paper colour supposed to work for real turtle bots? < 1266869464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bodily fluid variations. aren't you glad you asked? < 1266869475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, turtle *bots* < 1266869477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not turtles < 1266869477 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, 0=east strongly implies whoever wrote that was thinking of the unit circle, trig, and all that. Not aircraft navigation. < 1266869478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_ < 1266869479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266869480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The freak. < 1266869500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, if it was aircraft navigation it would be using nautical miles < 1266869504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the distances < 1266869517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also where is my ILS glideslope :( < 1266869519 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how boring. < 1266869526 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For really big turtle bots, maybe one pixel equals one nautical mile. < 1266869540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that doesn't even work for mine. I render to svg < 1266869542 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sblooosh, goes the paint. < 1266869565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, one square nautical mile? Or do we use non-square pixels? < 1266869572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much paint would it take to paint a square nautical mile of seawater, say, pink? < 1266869575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: no i don't have ops < 1266869612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: -ChanServ- 5 oerjan +votsriRfA [modified 2 days, 22:50:33 ago] < 1266869614 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless someone forgot to tell me < 1266869615 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You certainly seem to have. < 1266869616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no clue < 1266869631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does the colour mix in water? < 1266869639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1266869641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it float on top and try in the sun? < 1266869644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone else has "[modified ? ago]". < 1266869646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes mad with power < 1266869648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i forgot to tell you. < 1266869661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, doesn't you have ability to edit access list too? < 1266869666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah there is +f there < 1266869680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only thing you are lacking seems to be +F < 1266869684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(founder access) < 1266869704 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need whatshisname for that. < 1266869709 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the founder. < 1266869721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good grief. i seem to have achieved powers i don't even understand. < 1266869722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, well of course < 1266869722 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Isn't that "whatshisface"? < 1266869748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "andreou" says the access list < 1266869750 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i dunno, are they the same person? < 1266869763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, may this person also be known as "andreou"? < 1266869769 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1266869775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Information on andreou (account andreou): < 1266869775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Last seen : (about 39 weeks ago) < 1266869776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266869782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and registered in 2003 < 1266869794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very early on freenode iirc < 1266869795 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an old channel < 1266869798 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :walks with a limp < 1266869803 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode was called openprojects back then < 1266869811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that old? heh < 1266869812 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :walks with a limp, talks with a lisp < 1266869821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Information on lament (account lament): < 1266869822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Registered : Jan 03 01:33:46 2003 (7 years, 7 weeks, 3 days, 18:42:45 ago < 1266869834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, only a few minutes after andreou registered his nick < 1266869843 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how he got founder :) < 1266869847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1266869861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know you went back that far < 1266869880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh fizzie beats you both < 1266869885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Information on fizzie (account fizzie): < 1266869885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Registered : Sep 23 06:08:22 2002 (7 years, 22 weeks, 0 days, 14:09:05 ago) < 1266869886 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. It's merely been about 5 years since I registered. < 1266869887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2002! < 1266869891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but I joined after lament. < 1266869899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Information on AnMaster (account AnMaster): < 1266869899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- Registered : Dec 26 16:35:03 2005 (4 years, 8 weeks, 3 days, 03:42:46 ago) < 1266869899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266869916 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: On the other hand, I have no idea what sort of channels I might have been on openprojects before #esoteric. < 1266869924 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been around longer than AnMaster? Hah. < 1266869927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq registered about half a year before < 1266869928 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was on the network before, just didn't need to register before #esoteric < 1266869928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266869932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I was on efnet before < 1266869938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amongst other places < 1266869946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And why do I have Kial registered to my account? < 1266869955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't see that < 1266869966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, strange < 1266869983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh ais/scarf is new here < 1266869987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2007 < 1266869995 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep < 1266870002 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found the wiki ages before I found the IRC channel < 1266870012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but wasn't I in this channel like in late 2006? < 1266870019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you joined *after* me? < 1266870020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1266870031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-NickServ- cpressey is not registered. < 1266870035 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when I first came here, my only IRC client was Chatzilla running inside Mozilla (not even Firefox) on an ancient SunOS box which only had CDE, via X forwarding < 1266870042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey! know what to do when he next disconnects? < 1266870045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs < 1266870072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I have a vague memory of you mentioning that < 1266870080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but what terminal were you using? < 1266870088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xterm, I think < 1266870093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266870099 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, Exceed < 1266870100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, terminal as in system to access it < 1266870102 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Weird. My oldest log dir for freenode seems to have only #esoteric in it, starting on Mon Dec 09 07:24:10 2002; what on earth have I been doing from Sep 23, 2002 to Dec 09, 2002... < 1266870104 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :running on Windows < 1266870105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware terminal < 1266870107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh? < 1266870112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth is exceed? < 1266870115 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: all the computers were running Windows < 1266870120 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it seems to do X forwarding < 1266870123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, apart from that sunos box < 1266870128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one of the X servers for Windows, isn't it? < 1266870133 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among winaXe and such. < 1266870135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, as in, Exceed is a Windows X client < 1266870140 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you forward to < 1266870145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what? < 1266870152 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so things happen on the server, they come up in your Exceed window < 1266870152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't x clients the application programs? < 1266870162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, kind of like vnc? < 1266870163 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, X gets the terminology backwards like that. < 1266870164 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm confused < 1266870166 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: very like vnc < 1266870177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you run on your system, and which shows the windows on your screen, is the X server. < 1266870181 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1266870188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, x clients = application programs. X server = the Xorg program or such < 1266870188 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the apps, which you run on a remote server (possibly), are clients. < 1266870194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which draws to hardware < 1266870213 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1266870222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I thought this was well known < 1266870226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean "the x server" < 1266870233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the typical name of it < 1266870240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when talking < 1266870252 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed that that would be what was running on the SunOS server actually doing the forwarding < 1266870253 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We got a copy of the I-think-it-costs-money-in-general WinaXe on the "new student CD" of the university; there was some sort of a campus license agreement. < 1266870269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, the forwarding.. well that is a tricky issue < 1266870289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, when was that? < 1266870302 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X reminds me of Java, they both have infinity layers of abstraction to make absolutely sure you can do anything, but have no idea how < 1266870303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 2003 is when I started. < 1266870316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1266870376 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: The section about the X Window System in the UHH is definitely fun reading. < 1266870377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems they've been keeping the license thing going; the computing centre web pages have a use-your-service-password-to-login link to WinaXe plus 8.4. I assume it must cost money, since they have it password-protected. < 1266870394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266870417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also have a free license for "Comsol Multiphysics 3.5a (Windows, Linux, Mac)", some sort of partial differential equation numerical solver package. < 1266870418 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole UHH is fun reading < 1266870438 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the UHH? < 1266870452 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNIX-HATERS Handbook < 1266870473 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266870478 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266870484 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they hate all other OSes too? or just UNIX in particular? < 1266870496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know of it? < 1266870496 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just POSIXy ones? < 1266870499 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I don't < 1266870502 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a classic < 1266870503 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_UNIX-HATERS_Handbook < 1266870509 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I vaguely remember having heard of it now I've seen the name < 1266870528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf is the whole thing < 1266870547 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, as a member of the university faculty, you can buy Windows 7 Ultimate for 20 eur? I didn't know that. < 1266870558 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION downloads < 1266870576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, while students can get it for free using MSDNAA? < 1266870581 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Microsoft's general strategy on Windows is to price it ridiculously high, then give a massive discount to anyone who might plausibly buy it < 1266870595 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: MSDNAA tends to only be for engineering and computer science students < 1266870602 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, people who might plausibly go into programming < 1266870613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah I see < 1266870626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh btw what about OEM for windows? < 1266870631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they get it really cheap? < 1266870649 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: depends on the sort of computer, I think < 1266870656 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard a while back that it's $6 on netbooks < 1266870661 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably to compete with Linux < 1266870665 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know for certain that that's true < 1266870674 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's likely to be much much cheaper than the retail version, at least < 1266870688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.simson.net/ref/ugh.pdf is the whole thing <-- that pdf index is confusing. Page 8 is befoge page 4 in the side bar < 1266870700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means the selection jumps about when you scroll < 1266870709 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey, if you typo "befoge", "befunge" starts to seem more plausible < 1266870720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, "befoge"? < 1266870728 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: read your own comment < 1266870745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266870747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before < 1266870755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befoge < 1266870763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see how close they are on qwerty < 1266870772 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266870779 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all that close < 1266870787 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a knight's-move < 1266870797 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that far < 1266870891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They sell the OEM versions of Windows in the local computers-parts place(s); in theory I guess they would sell those only if you buy enough parts that they plausibly constitute a new computer, but I've heard that's not very rigorously enforced. < 1266870918 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course the "retail OEM" thing is probably much more expensive than what a real OEM with a Real Deal would get. < 1266871016 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The documentation and such is a bit OEM-oriented, though. I helped a friend to build his box and install win7 on it; technically speaking I am now bound to provide tech support for him with a "competitive price" that is "not higher than those I charge from my other clients". < 1266871031 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I happened to be the one to unwrap the box, and those were part of the license papers. < 1266871056 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also required me to plant that ugly sticker somewhere visible on the computer. < 1266871160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you? < 1266871218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I, uh... no comments, someone from Microsoft might be reading. Let's just say I tried, but I might have missed the case by a metre or so. < 1266871229 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew you'd be evasive. < 1266871240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1266871245 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the record, Win7 Pro UK retail in this shop is 293.90 eur, the corresponding OEM version is 136.90 eur. < 1266871299 0 :Microsfot!~RawIRC@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266871304 0 :Microsfot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We heard that. < 1266871305 0 :Microsfot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266871322 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They certainly are everywhere. < 1266871365 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did promise I'd accept tech support queries over IRC with a very reasonable rate, though. < 1266871365 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Williamsburg, at least. < 1266871375 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you got many? < 1266871396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None so far, in fact. Must be that Windows 7 is just so good. < 1266871409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be, could be. < 1266871419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm trying to give some praise so that they'd forgive that whole sticker thing.) < 1266871480 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, it's not your fault that you stumbled and fell with the sticker into the trash can < 1266871484 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Windows 7 /is/ supposedly good. < 1266871495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: meh, it's just better than Vista < 1266871508 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IMO, Vista was better than XP < 1266871527 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what is Windows 7 worse than? < 1266871546 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since I started using them, I've had fewer problems with Windows 7 than I've had with Python. < 1266871552 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apples, oranges, whatever. < 1266871557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1266871584 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Actually I had the sticker ready for planting, and then I just accidentally got it stuck to the plastic bag the installation DVD and booklets were in. They're still in the same apartment as the computer, it's not that far off the mark. < 1266871769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic < 1266871805 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Microsoft licencing can be so fu < 1266871807 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fun < 1266871813 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, the sticker seems to be on the bottom of this netbook < 1266871903 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were some detailed instructions on where you were allowed to stick the sticker in, but I've forgotten them. < 1266871911 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bottom seems to be popular with laptops, understandably. < 1266871925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: _interesting_ freudian keyboard slip there < 1266871935 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_Interesting_ indeed < 1266871958 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I have a spare Windows 98 sticker somewhere < 1266871964 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I managed to peel off the computer it was originally stuck to < 1266871976 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite all the security flanges to stop you doing that < 1266872120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was under the impression that you were sort-of technically allowed to move even an OEM license from one computer to another, with some added restrictions and bureaucracy. < 1266872214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interwebs seem to suggest otherwise, but that was just on some "explaining Microsoft licensing to normal people" page. < 1266872262 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266872271 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"One main difference is that an OEM operating system license (such as the license for Windows) cannot be transferred from its original PC to another PC", says Education Operating System Licensing Q&A from Microsoft directly. I guess it's Not Possible(tm), then. < 1266872304 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, if you change one component at a time, at what time does it cease to be the "original PC"? < 1266872339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had a Windows install tell me "TOO MANY PARTS ARE DIFFERENT!!!" after I upgraded some card or other, once. < 1266872373 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It made me re-enter the reg key or something, I forget. < 1266872435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it does that reactivation thing, or so I hear. I wonder if it's possible to reactivatate an OEM license like that. < 1266872435 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard it was tied to the motherboard, but I could well be thinking of a different version of windows. < 1266872440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That claim is perjury. < 1266872443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doctrine of first sale. < 1266872488 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doctrine of Microsoft sending assault troopers in black helicopters if you try to argue. < 1266872505 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Microsoft has no assault troopers. < 1266872511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're probably thinking of Blackwater. < 1266872553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, they even have a justification for being motherboard-bound. < 1266872568 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Microsoft needed to have one base component "left standing" that would still define that original PC. Since the motherboard contains the CPU and is the "heart and soul" of the PC, when the motherboard is replaced (for reasons other than defect) a new PC is essentially created." < 1266872578 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The heart and soul! < 1266872584 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266872603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The motherboard does not contain a CPU, it contains a bus to which a CPU is attached... < 1266872624 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To contain: to be capable of holding < 1266872629 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe if you hit the old one with a hammer, and therefore have to replace it because of a defect, there's no problem there. < 1266872729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Being old is a defect. < 1266872733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266872772 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266872860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fungot, encoding lurks dark corners. Only when the rain, ever to go with no throughput that I could see? < 1266872866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot? < 1266872869 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: such are the difficulties of adjudication were great; i think insuperable. whatever acuteness and diligence could do has been done. i have never made a speech, the bishop of st fnord stood rows of eager spectators. it is the only school which they are composed, according to your discretion; no man can estimate the amount of fnord delight and instruction which, perhaps, at the full fnord tide of your favour," said mrs < 1266872886 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bishop of st fnord sounds like a cool guy < 1266873105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ilari: cfg's + a global control stack < 1266873157 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266873278 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266873717 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :letrec a = a in a < 1266873774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language is that? < 1266873792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. Some functional pseudocode. < 1266873810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you s/letrec/let/ it would be haskell < 1266873838 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I used parens instead of = and in, it would be Scheme. < 1266873873 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Got URL where it is described? < 1266873891 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why yes, i do! < 1266873901 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let haskell = haskell in haskell where produc [1..n] < 1266873911 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take a look at this wikipedia page that i created http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_index_grammar < 1266873912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266873922 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: nope < 1266873974 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks really nice augur I like these diagrams < 1266873983 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which diagrams < 1266874040 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like music < 1266874053 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#fff - sharp fortissimo < 1266874061 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sounds really bad) < 1266874101 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1266874109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1266874110 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches* ss wp youtube < 1266874129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style speeches < 1266874129 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg) < 1266874131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266874140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style ct < 1266874141 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) < 1266874145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hi there fungot < 1266874146 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to the northwest of this cape. he took back the medal from the frog king. and i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! the king does not wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call that the chrono trigger. it is r66-y? cool? who knows what would become of my mystics? i must win! < 1266874163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that sword? < 1266874243 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That #fff reminds me, I saw a modern production of Berlioz's "Damnation of Faust" the other day. In the opening scene, Dr. Faust was sitting at what looked like an Apple ][, with some esolang-output/trace-looking-stuff flickering on the wall behind him. < 1266874269 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: are you in vancouver? < 1266874277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: No. < 1266874304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I are in the US. < 1266874331 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266874580 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where I am, at present, trying to understand some "clever" Python code. And failing. < 1266874612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It alone can't stop. < 1266874642 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm guessing it's talking about the masamune, because that's the most well-known mystical sword. I could be wrong, though. < 1266874702 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266874726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well iirc so < 1266874747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, why didn't the king wish btw? < 1266874748 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i shall help also. you must return to us, the chancellor's a decent man. why, this is for you guys are a lot! the hero has made the epoch, your wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away! < 1266874760 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The part "took back .. for myself!" is a direct quotation. < 1266874790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, from what scene? < 1266874803 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From when Cyrus leaves, in Frog's flashback. < 1266874831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266874840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, but what about the sword? < 1266874841 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: frog will do. the king fought the mystics over 400 long years. when will it be the reptites, or you silly apes who end up ruling the world?? < 1266874851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, fss, do that repeat < 1266874852 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. < 1266874855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1266874926 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the King part is from "The King does not wish to see anybody", with the ! from something like "They must have a death wish!" < 1266874958 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Can the sword alone stop it? < 1266874959 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: there! there it is! but by the time we're through with you, you'll be in danger. open hatch. you must return to us, the chancellor's a decent man. why, this is for you guys are a lot! the hero has made the epoch, your wings! now this is a treasure there... found the treasure!! probably filled with mystical forest powers. we are immortal! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we < 1266874964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, it can? < 1266874965 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like... < 1266874980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266874982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't true < 1266874988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the hero has made the epoch, your wings!" < 1266875005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really should stick in the "use the previous line as the intial context", that'd make it easier to get the repepepetitition. < 1266875008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was that guy in the future who did < 1266875009 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266875028 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the wings were added by Dalton in 12000 BC Zeal. < 1266875038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you remembered the name? < 1266875042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1266875044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew it was added buy that other guy < 1266875047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in past < 1266875048 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's Dalton, after all. < 1266875094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm? < 1266875103 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's such a flashy guy, easy to remember. < 1266875104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot who that guy was, some boss < 1266875111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likes the sound of his own name, too. < 1266875127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bow, and pay homage to our new liege, King Dalton! -- The old crone and the pesky Gurus are gone. I now rename Zeal, the Kingdom of Dalton!" < 1266875128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266875134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funny in Swedish < 1266875137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that name < 1266875147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dalton → dalta < 1266875185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what it is in English < 1266875186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266875193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiktionary gives it as < 1266875202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" 1. coddle excessively; pamper" < 1266875204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dalta vb itr, dalta med ngn klema coddle (mollycoddle, pamper) sb; kela pet (fondle) sb" says our Swedish-English dictionary. < 1266875224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :klema indeed < 1266875225 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("MOT Norstedts stora engelska ordbok 1.0") < 1266875234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh 1.0? < 1266875250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they came in like "1995 edition" < 1266875259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or "seventh edition" < 1266875263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not in version numbers < 1266875399 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably related to English "dote" ? < 1266875418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not sure what that is? < 1266875422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dote-matrix printers? < 1266875427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266875441 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.to bestow or express excessive love or fondness habitually (usually fol. by on or upon): They dote on their youngest daughter. < 1266875453 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from dictionary.com < 1266875467 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't aware of the other 2 meanings it gives < 1266875483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and those are? < 1266875500 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2. to show a decline of mental faculties, esp. associated with old age. 3. decay of wood. < 1266875760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266875784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't double sided printing be easy < 1266875821 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the web versions have version numbers. I don't know. < 1266875836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah could be < 1266875851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't those cost? < 1266875859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of yearly thing or such < 1266875863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MOT Norstedts stora engelska ordbok 1.0 < 1266875863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I denna tredje upplaga av Norstedts stora svensk-engelska ordbok har ca 6 000 aktuella ord och fraser lagts till. Dessutom har nya betydelser lagts till på befintliga uppslagsord, och innehållet har reviderats och moderniserats. -- Stockholm i maj 2000" < 1266875867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So this is from 2000. < 1266875880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do, we have access via the university proxy though. < 1266875918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266875987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There used to be a "netmot foo" command-line shortcut on the standard shell server -- it used lynx --dump, IIRC -- though I think that's broken right now, there's been some URL changes now that this is the Wave University. < 1266875995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw my printer has reported that the black ink is almost used up for about a month now. During that time I printed around 200 pages of written text I think < 1266876004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how it calculates < 1266876079 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It tries to maximize profit to the printer manufacturer without *completely* lying. < 1266876094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1266876096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a HP < 1266876104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful linux support there though < 1266876125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better linux drivers by far than the windows drivers < 1266876130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all features supported of course < 1266876148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is semi-official help from HP with those drivers even < 1266876180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hplip isn't it called that? < 1266876518 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, they're "wonderful" nowadays? I think at some point in time they were a horrible binary blob. But I could be wrong. (I've usually just used the free alternatives.) < 1266876581 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's Lexmark's binary horribleness I'm thinking about. < 1266876601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they are open source < 1266876605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the thing about them < 1266876620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hplip is open source and works very very wekk < 1266876623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well* < 1266876634 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to be so. < 1266876639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never got my old lexmark printer/scanner/copier to work well under linux < 1266876644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it wasn't even detected < 1266876646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was ages ago < 1266876649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm pretty sure it was HP who bundled the whole Apache Tomcat with their Windows drivers just to show some printer statistics control panel tab. < 1266876657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly before first ubuntu version even < 1266876669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was on SuSE < 1266876673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(heh) < 1266876689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and yes hp's windows drivers suck a lot < 1266876708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while on linux it just works (remember to turn off the tray icon thingy though) < 1266876719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but once you do that it doesn't show up again) < 1266876731 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have (well, technically speaking my wife has) a Lexmark E232 model-cheapo B&W laser printer, which works pretty well with CUPS + gutenprint's "Generic PCL 6/PCL XL printer" drivers. < 1266876740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and the app doesn't seem to auto start at all :) < 1266876765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this is a printer/scanner/copier thingy though < 1266876775 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, those are always messier. < 1266876784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and laser printers are always easier < 1266876791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are generally postscript aren't they? < 1266876802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while inkjet... are not < 1266876858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cheap laser printers typically aren't postscript. < 1266876867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like this one. < 1266876883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite many (like this) support the very much simpler PCL language, though. < 1266876900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PCL, incidentally, is a HP thing. < 1266876904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266876908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well okay < 1266876913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still somewhat standard then < 1266876952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and the only postscript printers I have had to deal with have been monster things where you log in on the printer afterwards to print your buffered document < 1266876959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they have those at our university) < 1266876966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and pseudo printers of course < 1266876970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for pdf conversion < 1266876988 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think our printers support that sort of stuff too, but no-one uses those features, and I'm not sure they'd work anyway. < 1266877005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, they aren't optional at our university < 1266877038 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A LaserJet 5200 is the one I usually print to at work. < 1266877052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a LaserJet... 4650?, when colors are needed. < 1266877063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway, they have paper sorter and automatic < 1266877067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1266877071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least some of them do < 1266877081 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, those get pretty complicated. < 1266877083 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hole-punch" < 1266877087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, no? < 1266877097 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"staple"? < 1266877098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that for putting in binders < 1266877100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right < 1266877105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it, staple < 1266877109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266877141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At my civil service place all large print jobs were printed to the copy machine, which also was a horrible monstrosity with all kinds of "which parts of the paper you want stapled" options. < 1266877150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there are rumored to be colour printers at university (according to printer selection window). I have yet to successfully locate where they are physically located. < 1266877169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, civil service? < 1266877171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that < 1266877177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The army alternative. < 1266877187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you have värnplikt there still? < 1266877207 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Civiltjänst? < 1266877214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, if it means what I think it does. < 1266877215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right. Sounds exotic < 1266877225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, can't you use that dict < 1266877231 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What can I say? We're a bit traditionalists. < 1266877318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw, there is an even larger printer monster with automatic paper feed for copying kind of thing at one place at the university < 1266877321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhow, I was doing desktop publishing work for Brottspåföljdssektorns utbildningscentral (the new name; I'm not sure what the old one was in Swedish) for a year. < 1266877326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the other one actually has that < 1266877351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what the heck do they do. I can read each part of that < 1266877358 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I (first) went to university, there was a big ol' daisywheel line printer named "R5"... loud enough that it was housed in a room by itself. < 1266877365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can only hazard a guess that it is related to crime < 1266877378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is so bureaucratic opaque < 1266877393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you are older than us < 1266877394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly < 1266877396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They arrange the training you need if you want to work in a prison, basically. And some other criminology-as-a-study related stuff. < 1266877397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, when was that < 1266877405 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right; the printers. Our place has some for-students color printers in a separate room; you print things there, then collect them from the "printouts desk" and pay for it. (Black-and-white stuff is free.) < 1266877410 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And the university was a bit behind the times at the time, yes :) < 1266877424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, around when was it? late 1980? < 1266877426 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Early nineties. < 1266877430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266877455 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not *that* old :) < 1266877460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, we get to pay for both and have some sort of printer account thingy < 1266877481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot how many pages I have left on it < 1266877485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I very rarely print there though < 1266877512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inkjet at home probably costs less in practise < 1266877528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :laser at home would be better < 1266877543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I worked out a how to correctly do double sided printing :D < 1266877611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"odd pages, reverse order", put them in with the bottom at the page towards you, text facing up (it's one of those printers with the tray below where the printer comes out). Then "even pages, usual order" < 1266877618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse order is the one where the first page ends up at the top < 1266877652 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Our B&W printing policy is "please don't use huge amounts of resources, because if you do, then we're going to have to start enforcing quotas here, and that'll make no-one happy". < 1266877676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, normal (for completely unfathomable reasons) is the one where you have to reverse the order of the printed out pages < 1266877684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not make the other the default < 1266877688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would make more sense < 1266877733 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a (non-free) a-bit-wider-than-A0 no-real-limit-for-length,-it's-a-huge-roll poster-printer available for students, too. But that one was pretty expensive. < 1266877735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have yet to see a printer designed so that the pages end up in the right order when you print in the non-reversed order < 1266877747 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266877747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, colour? < 1266877752 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1266877766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that kind of printers are pretty fancy yeah < 1266877780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The print queue is called "mankeli" (Finnish for sv:mangel). < 1266877784 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it looks like one, too. < 1266877787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266877821 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate mankeli < 1266877827 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var < 1266877830 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes < 1266877846 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto fi en mankeli < 1266877848 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mangle < 1266877862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the printers at my uni are called "followme" usually because they are supposed to point to the nearest printer of the selected color-or-b&w-nsss < 1266877865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ness* < 1266877866 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. mangle -- (clothes dryer for drying and ironing laundry by passing it between two heavy heated rollers) < 1266877866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1266877868 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that sense. < 1266877869 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266877870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually they don't < 1266877878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to go figure out where the heck the printer is < 1266877881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(never near you) < 1266877906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, #!/bin/cat? < 1266877921 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ...? < 1266877930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : `translate mankeli < 1266877930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : var sl_select, tl_select, [...] < 1266877944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looked like it catted the source code? < 1266877957 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... yeaaaaah no. < 1266877957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`type translate < 1266877958 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1266877962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1266877963 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1266877963 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/translate < 1266877964 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/bin/bash \ translateto "en $1" < 1266877972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run type translate < 1266877973 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translate is /tmp/hackenv.28858/bin/translate < 1266877987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run file bin/translate < 1266877988 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin/translate: Bourne-Again shell script text executable < 1266877993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, then why that strange output above < 1266878009 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A) That's JAVASCRIPT code from translate.google.com < 1266878013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266878018 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :B) They keep changing their output, and I can't keep up. < 1266878044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, looked slightly like perl + var to me < 1266878065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is probably some Acme module for that < 1266878070 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From a bunch of variable assignments? :P < 1266878081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Acme::Javascript? < 1266878114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yes < 1266878118 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The specs say mankeli's a HP DesignJet 2500CP; "600 DPI, 60 LPI", but I think that LPI value is a typo, since all specs in the web talk about "true 600 DPI". And the print queue is moderated; you have to call/email them before any submitted jobs are processed. (Presumably because they don't want a 87 cm wide and 10 metres long picture of a human penis come out of it unannounced.) < 1266878133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, LPI? < 1266878141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lines per inch. < 1266878166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that's pretty small text < 1266878188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1266878222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway, what sort of lines are those < 1266878278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lines of points? LPI's just the "vertical resolution" there, while DPI's the horizontal (across-paper) one. But I really think they both are actually 600 points per inch. < 1266878291 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The printing seems to cost 20 eur/metre, on the 90 cm wide paper. < 1266878306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's expensive < 1266878312 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+22 % value added tax. < 1266878320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that was without tax? < 1266878324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh < 1266878326 0 :ttm_!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266878334 0 :ttm_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ttm < 1266878340 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :24.40 eur/m with tax. < 1266878401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that's very very expensive indeed < 1266878415 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266878424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I've never printed anything with it. < 1266878488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you must be at university very late? < 1266878491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sshing? < 1266878492 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266878512 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At home I am. < 1266878516 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-212-31.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266878519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, vpn? ssh? < 1266878537 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither. The computing centre web site is publicly available. < 1266878577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but the printer details? < 1266878580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and printer queue? < 1266878597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that public to the internet too? :D < 1266878641 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1266878654 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://itservices.tkk.fi/fi/ohjeet/hinnasto/ if you can read Finnish. < 1266878674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://itservices.tkk.fi/fi/ohjeet/anvandningspolitik/ if you want to read the usage policy in Swedish. < 1266878675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so you mean anyone over the internet can submit to any of the printers at that uni? < 1266878692 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just the specs and the name of the printer queue is mentioned there. < 1266878703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err that is strange Swedish < 1266878705 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously you have to be using one of the university computers to actually access the queue. < 1266878714 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: hows them gigs? 8D < 1266878723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, s/politik/policy/ and it would make sens in Swedish Swedish < 1266878753 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-212-31.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266878764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I doubt they have had anyone with real skills to translate that stuff. < 1266878780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In any case, the instructions seem to be there in English too if you're terminally interested, but it's very boring stuff. < 1266878782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, possibly. Also it could be sv_FI and sv_SE diffs < 1266878799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I'm not that interested no < 1266878831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, at least it is better than translations like "all your base are belong to us" or "spoony " < 1266878832 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266878861 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266878865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would be extremely surprised if fizzie didn't know that one < 1266878926 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bard, yes. < 1266878951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the original (more literally) < 1266879018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw the last xkcd wasn't too bad < 1266879035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sysadmin one) < 1266879142 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"After submitting a chargeable print job, please consult the pidgeonhole in room U115a for further information. Payment takes place in U115a." < 1266879161 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Please consult the pidgeonhole for further information." < 1266879188 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pigeonhole < 1266879201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1266879201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there is also a spelling mistake. < 1266879205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is in in FI? < 1266879206 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's funny even without that. < 1266879210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it in* < 1266879253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :translated of course < 1266879257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(correctly) < 1266879278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Finnish instructions just say the submitted jobs can be collected from room U115a. < 1266879294 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing it would be something like "teller window"? < 1266879307 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1266879322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like pigeonhole better. < 1266879339 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if it is manned by a real pigeon. < 1266879392 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least they didn't say "cubbyhole". < 1266879409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They use the word "dovecote" (fi:kyyhkyslakka, sv:duvslag) for the boxy-shelf-thing-thing where homework assignment papers and such (mostly for maths courses) are distributed from. < 1266879432 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one also has no live birds in it, which is a shame. < 1266879471 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266879603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1266879711 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle -- I love the way they have a picture of real pigeons and holes. < 1266880682 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266880956 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266881272 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-7-223.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266881414 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266881415 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1266881913 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-53-123.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1266881922 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266882027 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266882027 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1266882502 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266882511 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266882882 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266883281 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266883526 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266884292 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266885018 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266885018 0 :ttm!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266885019 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266885019 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266885043 0 :ttm!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266885045 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266885045 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266885050 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-166-170-102.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266885658 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266886329 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266887828 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266888080 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266888509 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266889160 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266889447 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266889567 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266889761 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266892144 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266893972 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh nose D-8 < 1266893975 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's another Gregor Richards < 1266893978 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wideawakemusic.com/gallery.html < 1266893985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh noes. < 1266894211 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1266894226 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266895423 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266895467 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266895641 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh nose ":-/"[1] < 1266896171 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266897489 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266901940 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266902073 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266902317 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :":-/"[1]? < 1266902357 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy notation for nose < 1266902366 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh < 1266902640 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266902694 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i knew a Gregor Richardson < 1266902721 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not close enough. < 1266903377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once knew a Gregor Richards. < 1266903391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guy registered http://www.codu.org/ for some reason. < 1266903429 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't an oh nose be ":o/"[1]? < 1266903454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They would, in fact, like for you to think that. < 1266903696 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266903754 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You'll notice that www.codu.org, while existent, forwards to codu.org :P < 1266903764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Heheheh. < 1266904173 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Farewell < 1266904590 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266904598 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266904753 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266904842 0 :cal153!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266908321 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266908833 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266910336 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266911187 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-52-189.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1266911446 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266911999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266912000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1266913325 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266916752 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266922098 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266922280 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-ocakzbxcxbabsbxp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266922291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1266922291 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266922291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1266922291 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-ocakzbxcxbabsbxp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266922797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor, poor fireballs < 1266924003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current favorite book: Handbook of Formal Languages < 1266924018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for you, oerjan < 1266924028 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont let anyone else know about it x3 < 1266924126 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rolls eyes < 1266924146 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1266924148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its a nifty little book < 1266924168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres one chapter that extensively covers some extensions of context free grammars < 1266924177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :called controlled grammars < 1266924211 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which the rewriting of a string is controlled in some way, either by the string itself, or by some rules on the structure of derivations < 1266924214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1266924595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going with the whatever < 1266924600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles innocently < 1266924612 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266924616 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its cool! < 1266925316 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Handbook of Larval Fromages. < 1266925439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i'll skip those dishes < 1266926614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to agree with oerjan on that < 1266926685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also: s/fireballs/fromer fireballs/ < 1266927881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1266928141 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1266928276 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1266928580 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://divingintointercal.blogspot.com/ < 1266928656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: has it been updated? < 1266928661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aware of it, but didn't think it had changed in years < 1266928674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, still stuck at part 3 < 1266928689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm secretly hoping that the author is still going, just hadn't figured out how to do anything more complex in INTERCAL yet < 1266928764 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, sadly < 1266928773 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, so am i < 1266928784 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hope he'll be able to tell us how to do intercal for the web < 1266928816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think I'm the third comment on that most recent blog post, btw < 1266928828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only vaguely remember writing it, and it's marked as an anon, but it looks like my style < 1266928883 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Combining INTERCAL expressions into one line is IMO good practice; it makes them easier to optimise, and has the added advantage of being more confusing." < 1266928894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I think that's me alright < 1266929373 0 :archtech!stanv@83.228.56.37 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266929410 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you know if it's possible to do command line arguments for intercal programs? < 1266929452 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in that case, i could re-implement drupal in intercal < 1266929602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: not at the moment, at least in C-INTERCAL < 1266929610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a standard set of args all compiled programs support < 1266929614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they don't support any others < 1266929622 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266929634 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about CLC-INTERCAL? < 1266929642 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this specified in the INTERCAL manual? < 1266929674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one? < 1266929687 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original one < 1266929689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-INTERCAL's certainly pretty clear about it in its < 1266929704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original one talks about the Princeton compiler, which has no mention of command-line args to the compiled programs themselves < 1266929706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to the compiler < 1266929711 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-IMTERCAL is not the defining standard < 1266929723 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*N < 1266929759 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but the princeton compiler itself does not disallow them does it? < 1266929828 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *guess* you could also do first-order programming by including argv in the source and recompiling < 1266929968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater: the princeton compiler existed in the days of punched cards, I'm not entirely sure if a command-line existed < 1266929988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know what you mean by "disallow"; there's no language feature that would let you get at them < 1266930017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1266930021 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, hmm, ya. < 1266930026 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o no < 1266930030 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he quits < 1266930895 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266934215 0 :lieuwe!~kvirc@a62-251-101-217.adsl.xs4all.nl JOIN :#esoteric < 1266934569 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266935018 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1266935500 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : there is no valid use case for a system without localhost < 1266935511 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone please randomly contradict that with a plausible argument < 1266935518 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that also takes into account the fact that it has ifupdown installed? < 1266935591 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust265.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266935603 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-166-170-102.range86-166.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266935938 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266936015 0 :boily!~boily@poste206-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1266936495 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266936774 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266937102 0 :lieuwe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1266937237 0 :Blarumyrran!~Blarumyrr@81-20-159-197.levira.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1266937264 0 :Blarumyrran!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266937335 0 :archtech!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266937500 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: that school-y thing < 1266937512 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone knows once you have a validated promela model how do you translate your specification into valid c/c++ code? < 1266937628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that just the -a flag to spin? < 1266937657 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should write pan.c (and a pile of other pan.X files) that's compilable to an executable verifier. < 1266937717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, a bit lazy reading there. You didn't want a compilable verifier, you wanted the actual promela code into C. < 1266938109 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :excellent < 1266938123 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266938129 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266938150 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean is the c model you are actually trying to model with it < 1266938163 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure whats the right terminology < 1266938191 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean that the -a flag produces a .c file that will run the verification? < 1266938200 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1266938217 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266938257 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i mean is that once you have a model that checks out, you somehow have to use that to implement the c/c++ model right? thats the step of the process i'm not clear about < 1266938287 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I got that a bit late. As far as I know, there's no magical tool that would turn a Promela model into C code. < 1266938353 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but i'm sure there are some sort of guidelines < 1266938425 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you go the other way, I hear there are some (more or less restricted) tools that do (or at least help) "model extraction", i.e. take C code and generate a Promela model for that. Guidelines for that sort of stuff are in the Spin book. < 1266938464 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After a quick look at the table of contents -- http://spinroot.com/spin/Doc/Book_extras/index.html -- it doesn't seem to talk much about the opposite problem, how to turn a Promela model into a real implementation. < 1266938498 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :model extraction would work too < 1266938543 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact i think thats the intended usage (you write your c/c++, you extract the model, verify, check for issues, adjust your code, rinse and repeat) < 1266938552 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1266938577 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was thinking at it backwards i suppose < 1266938648 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess both ways are used; the traditionalish "design → Promela model → implementation in C" one, and the fancier "implementation in C → Promela model for checking" one. < 1266938682 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There indeed seem to be some automation for model extraction, but I'm not really qualified to recommend any, not having used any of them. < 1266938747 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np, i will look and report back :P < 1266939247 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266939360 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1266941110 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-13-36.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266941177 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1266943040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266943067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, TURT has F for "move forward" and B for "move backward" < 1266943072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should negative arguments be allowed < 1266943084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because currently I think negative arguments to my F will move backwards < 1266943087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and vice verse < 1266943981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1266944087 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know nobody asked me, but that sounds reasonable. < 1266944150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer_to_colour(Value) -> < 1266944150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : <> = <>, < 1266944151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : {R,G,B}. < 1266944154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that rather neat < 1266944181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, that TURT quine looks messy. I don't think I had even seen that before. < 1266944196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which turt quine? < 1266944206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one from the huge domain name guy? < 1266944215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1266944224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info. < 1266944261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and yes it does if your interpreter handle "pen down without moving (that is, followed by a jump or pen-up event) → draw a dot" < 1266944276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you sed out all the dots that cfunge and iirc ccbi cerates it looks quite ok < 1266944328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway isn't that integer-to-colour-triplet function rather nice < 1266944339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C it would have been quite some bitshifting or such < 1266944339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't run it, I was just judging based on that picture there. < 1266944353 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, it is nice. < 1266944360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh that picture is much better than what cfunge produces (due to missing the dots) < 1266944369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course cfunge does the correct thing instead < 1266944400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway in cfunge it produces quite a less blocky image < 1266944404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to it producing an svg < 1266944489 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't mind portability, though, and assuming the fields line up right and there are no alignment mishaps, you could do a similar "struct rgb { unsigned char r, g, b; }; struct rgb integer_to_colour(unsigned u) { return *((struct rgb *)&u); }" thing in C too. < 1266944544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I'm not happy if it doesn't work on big endian or such < 1266944577 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can #ifdef in different struct definitions depending on endianness, but right, it's not guaranteed to work anyway. < 1266944607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless otherwise specified erlang uses big-endian for bitstrings/binaries < 1266944623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can override it to one of: big, little, native) < 1266944690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway the sanest way in C seems like something such as: < 1266944770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct rgb integer_to_colour(uint32_t u) { return (struct rgb){.r=u&0xff0000, .g=u&0xff00, .b=u&0xff}; } < 1266944775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, agreed? < 1266944794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming same struct as above that is < 1266944876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and erlang defaults to unsigned. With little endian signed it would have required something like: <> < 1266944896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and similar on the other side of the pattern matching for each of R, G and B < 1266944897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1266944944 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you use the same struct rgb definition I do, ".r = u&0xff0000" with an eight-bit byte will most likely end up in an always-zero .r, < 1266945025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't mind the reliance on well-defined unsigned wraparoundery and can assume CHAR_BIT == 8, it'd be enough with just .r = u>>16, .g = u>>8, .b = u. But maybe it's still best to mask with those masks before the shift, or with 0xff after. < 1266945069 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Away, food.) < 1266945151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh right < 1266945153 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, I think it would be well-defined to do something like "unsigned char *p = (unsigned char *)&u; return (struct rgb){ .r = p[0], g = p[1], b = p[2] };" if you like. It's in the standard that you can access all bytes of an object with a char*, and cast any pointer to a char pointer safely. < 1266945155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to bitshift it too < 1266945180 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But that's not endian-automatic the way bitshifting and masking is.) < 1266945192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1266945197 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266945201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and in C the best way is probably bitshifting < 1266945209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and that was one quick meal < 1266945353 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266945496 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I'm still away. < 1266945828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1266946531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh dear it looks like both ccbi and cfunge mix up turn left and turn right < 1266946544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus ccbi somehow manages to miss one dot in that test < 1266946551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1266946560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the dot turns out the wrong colour < 1266946583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(test/turt.b98 in cfunge sources) < 1266946592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I believe it might be incorrect) < 1266946640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but still, ccbi gets the wrong colour for the right dot) < 1266946651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it should be black not blue) < 1266946691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, something is up with turn left/right there < 1266946750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason turning right adds to the degree < 1266946758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and turing left substracts from it < 1266946790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that doesn't match behaviour for set heading < 1266947086 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1266947185 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266947496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw, just need you to confirm that I'm not mixing things up here: If you keep track of a heading and want to turn right you would substract from said heading. < 1266947497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1266947506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and turing left you would add to it < 1266947510 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a general rejection of the theory of Evolution when it was first presented, and wasn't thoroughly excepted until a long time afterwards. < 1266947514 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Furthermore, the revelation that the Earth is flat would be a far greater revelation than evolutionary theory was, meaning the public rejection and/or outcry would be far more widespread and violent. < 1266947516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming a math-direction < 1266947532 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um are you sure i'm the one you want to ask? oh math direction < 1266947538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in -> = 0 ^ = 90 <- 180 < 1266947540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1266947542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah then right turn would be negative < 1266947554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, then wth does both cfunge and ccbi do < 1266947560 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this AnMaster some kind of LOGO? < 1266947573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, the fingerprint TURT for befunge < 1266947579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh cool < 1266947599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi and cfunge both sets heading as in math-direction < 1266947607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mix up right and left < 1266947612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh < 1266947651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well by math direction i assume you mean the standard way of displaying complex numbers, with i upwards < 1266947653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however for compatibility with older programs it might be better to redefine what right and left in English means < 1266947654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266947666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes < 1266947670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e^(i*angle) is angle counterclockwise (in radians, though) < 1266947675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, unit circle for trig actually < 1266947680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which works out to the same thing < 1266947699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and yes in radians of course. < 1266947743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, suggesting that <- would be 180 radians wouldn't make sense in *any* system, thus you could conclude the unit in that case was degrees < 1266947746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there was the argument that for a turtle degrees are better, since you get exact multiples of 360 (2*pi is not exact on floating point) < 1266947763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, turtle degrees? < 1266947777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266947777 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: like bachelor of chenelography, etc < 1266947780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*turtle, degrees < 1266947783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right < 1266947806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and yes the unit in question for the interface is degrees in integer < 1266947846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I track it as degrees but convert it to radians to calc sin and cos values for move(Distance) < 1266947847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course even turns by 60 degrees gives you irrational x,y parts < 1266947859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for integer forwards) < 1266947869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, true. And that is defined to be integer x,y < 1266947881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is? < 1266947884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think it might be possible to get supposedly straight lines that are somewhat curved < 1266947895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, you have an integer-interface for TURT < 1266947904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure about a real turtle bot) < 1266947909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm more thinking about how you might not end up where you started if you do a triangle, say < 1266947910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is a query position thingy < 1266947929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you have to round to integers when drawing < 1266947931 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of rounding errors, if you are using integers < 1266947944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway since there is "jump to x,y" too < 1266947957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want a line to continue where you left off < 1266947963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you jump to current position < 1266948002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and yes quite. Unless you do that 3/4/5 one < 1266948013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or another one like that) < 1266948055 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but that one has an irrational _degree_, i'd think < 1266948112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell arctan(4/3)*(180/pi) < 1266948120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh hm < 1266948151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, EgoBot claimed a parse error < 1266948154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, if you round to nearest then just ending up near where you wanted to go is enough < 1266948166 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it's that two possible compilations thing < 1266948167 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266948178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how can that compile in two ways? < 1266948210 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably misremembered the name of arctan, so the compilation as an expression failed. then the compilation as a file failed (obviously) and gave me a parse error < 1266948211 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shouldn't ask, but, don't all turtle interfaces have a rounding problem? I certainly remember Apple LOGO did. < 1266948238 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there has to be /some/ way to do it without a rounding issue < 1266948240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: in _principle_ you could track exact algebraic expressions :D < 1266948259 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though pi is irrational? < 1266948276 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I suppose. < 1266948293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't _use_ pi in a turtle. the actual sin and cos are algebraic when the angles are rational _degrees_ < 1266948298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think) < 1266948371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example sin (60 degrees) = (sqrt 2)/2 < 1266948384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1266948388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it seems nearly all turt programs I have found depend on left and right being mixed up < 1266948392 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, even if they weren't, you could probably still do it. < 1266948404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sqrt 3)/2 < 1266948405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but set-heading doing the math set-heading < 1266948411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, counter clockwise < 1266948446 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, track all movements since the beginning as an algebraic expression incl. sin and cos, reduce when possible using trig rules, and *only for output*, approximate the pixels. < 1266948448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell atan(4/3)*(180/pi) < 1266948450 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :53.13010235415598 < 1266948456 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's unfortunate. < 1266948468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes quite < 1266948473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds almost like someone should define TUR2. < 1266948474 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's what i assumed you meant < 1266948481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, why not TURT2? < 1266948508 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't fingerprint IDs four characters? < 1266948522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I don't think it says anywhere that longer aren't permitted < 1266948524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor shorter < 1266948540 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it's a convention? < 1266948551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you should know ;P < 1266948566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The ( "Load Semantics" instruction loads the semantics for a given fingerprint onto any or all of the instructions A to Z. ( pops a count. It then pops count cells. For each cell that it pops, it multiplies a temporary value (which is initially zero) by 256, and adds the cell value to it. < 1266948566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this way, ( builds a fingerprint. This mechanism makes it simple to express large fingerprints like 0x452e472e in printable ASCII such as ".G.E"4( ... ), while not requiring the use of ASCII as the medium for all fingerprints. " < 1266948571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quoting from the 98 spec < 1266948581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes it is a convention afaik < 1266948601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, certainly there is nothing preventing me creating a fingerprint 0 < 1266948611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1266948618 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then not TURT2 because it breaks convention. :) < 1266948634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also it causes issues in 32-bit funges < 1266948639 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TURT2 would evaluate to a 40-bit value, is why, and 32-bit... exactly < 1266948639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a thing of the past anyway < 1266948652 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1266948661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, things are 64-bit or bignum nowdays (at least the thing *I* write ;P) < 1266948667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, < 1266948668 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You say that like things of the past have less value than things of the present. < 1266948671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge has an option < 1266948677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I was joking -_- < 1266948689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 32-bit funges are still fairly common < 1266948703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge is 64- or 32-bit (compile time option) < 1266948706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge is bignum < 1266948717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge defaults to 64-bit iirc < 1266948792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the issue is that TURT is so badly specced < 1266948807 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed < 1266948864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard to believe mixing up left and right, though. < 1266948933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, at least http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/tquine.php seems to depend on that behaviour and that plus a few test suite thingies are the only users of TURT I know of < 1266948966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and yes, left/right is problematic. Probably it has been copied for compat between implementations since then < 1266948992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw did you ever do any more work on JIT-funge? < 1266949057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if I had to redesign it I would leave out the teleporting and the absolute-heading-setting stuff. < 1266949096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and define which direction it was to turn in (math one is the only one that makes sense IMO) < 1266949105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for relative ones at least) < 1266949112 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1266949121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also what about transparent colours? < 1266949133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have semi-transparent pen-colours < 1266949140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more realistic too < 1266949142 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gamma, huh. < 1266949150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I was thinking of alpha channel < 1266949156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1266949167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, gamma is something quite different isn't it? < 1266949175 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was mixed up. < 1266949177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway since I render to svg, alpha should be trivial < 1266949238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, now, should it be additive (light based) mixing or subtractive (ink/crayon/...) based mixing? < 1266949249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former would be way easier to implement < 1266949259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you render to a real turtle bot < 1266949264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for me who renders to svg... < 1266949297 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TURT2 is fine, it just overlaps with something 4-character < 1266949298 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it would be forgivable for a real turtle robot to stick to black-and-white. < 1266949303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh and you should probably define TURT and TUR2 to share the same underlying turtle bot in case both are used during a single program run < 1266949304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In 32-bit) < 1266949348 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just so you know, I'm almost certainly never going to get around to defining TUR2. Sorry. < 1266949364 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't let that stop you or anyone else who wants to, though. < 1266949369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, see about ccbi or cfunge having left/right mixed up for relative turining < 1266949378 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw your comment < 1266949379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fixing it breaks the TURT quine amongst other things < 1266949387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1266949401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so what are we to do? < 1266949412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :provide a command line option? < 1266949425 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could always have a "chirality" flag you pass to the implementation, a boolean saying how left and right should be determined in TURT < 1266949440 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chirality!!! < 1266949447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, the thing is that it is different in set-heading and turn left/right < 1266949449 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chirality is dead < 1266949462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--goatie < 1266949471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did I miss there? < 1266949479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of pop culture reference? < 1266949495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point is to provide a command line option that makes the behaviour compatible with what existing programs expect < 1266949497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people in mirror worlds have goaties, of course < 1266949509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1266949512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*goatee < 1266949520 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But hmm, what makes it inconsistent? < 1266949536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well set heading acts like it is math rotation < 1266949543 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Chivalry is dead) < 1266949544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does it act like it? < 1266949557 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set-heading 90 goes north? < 1266949559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as in, 0 = east, 90 = straight up < 1266949565 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266949566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell yes < 1266949592 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find that highly unlikely < 1266949600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266949603 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at CCBI's source, at least :-P < 1266949620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how comes it renders the same as cfunge then < 1266949623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which does it that way < 1266949633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me < 1266949634 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void turnRight() { turt.heading += toRad(cip.stack.pop); turt.normalize(); } < 1266949634 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void setHeading() { turt.heading = toRad(cip.stack.pop); turt.normalize(); } < 1266949640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, turn right should substract < 1266949641 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266949642 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GROSS < 1266949646 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pukes on Deewiant < 1266949646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming math degrees < 1266949648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and it doesn't < 1266949651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is the issue < 1266949657 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to this, and starting at 0, 90 right and 90 set-to are identical < 1266949674 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-13-36.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266949682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes that is the bug. Look at how you use those values < 1266949698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I wouldn't assume math degrees: to quote the docs "A 'Query Heading' (positive angle relative to east) " < 1266949707 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, never mind < 1266949712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't mean anything :-P < 1266949734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite. The reason I didn't reply was I was trying to figure out wth you meant with that :P < 1266949789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all it means is that 0 =< A < 360 (or 0 < A =< 360, both are valid ways to interpret that) < 1266949803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I would go for the former) < 1266949817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it doesn't even mean that < 1266949819 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'm not even sure it means that. It sounds quite meaningless to me < 1266949822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :returning 720 < 1266949824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is valid < 1266949827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but -720 isn't < 1266949838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "TRUT"4(n9a*HA.a,@ < 1266949843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ? < 1266949850 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could have just been "positive angle" < 1266949851 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether H or R, this prints 90 for me < 1266949864 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So where's the inconsistency? < 1266949889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that doesn't render anything < 1266949891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't check it < 1266949901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and sure. < 1266949903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't give a damn about rendering < 1266949907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266949916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how else can you check it? < 1266949918 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just said that H is inconsistent wrt R/L < 1266949932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, OOC, have you looked at Etcha at all? < 1266949947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, never heard of it < 1266949954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and define OOC < 1266949954 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/etcha/ < 1266949960 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out Of Curiosity < 1266949963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266949979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes because when you render it turning right ends up turning left < 1266949985 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etcha does the turtle thing, but combines it with the program source < 1266949998 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TURT has A and Q which print the heading and pos respectively, if there is a bug in pen movement these should be enough to show it < 1266950001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, remember it is relative the turtle bot < 1266950009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, (except for set heading) < 1266950022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, now look at tests/turt.b98 in cfunge source. It has: < 1266950025 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Etcha's also implemented in some horrendous Java that MissPiggy would probably like.) < 1266950030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5F 9a*L 11x> ; Draw vertical line, turn 90 deg right.; < 1266950030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0C 5F 11x> ; Change to black, draw line. ; < 1266950050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very strange < 1266950093 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like a typo in your comment or code :-P < 1266950117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wait, is svg's coordinate system upside down? < 1266950122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266950123 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm still not seeing anything: "TRUT"4(n9a*HaF1PI@ prints a dot to the south as expected < 1266950127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could explain some of the things < 1266950150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw in that turt test code above you print the supposed-to-be-black dot as blue < 1266950155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and blue was never set as pen colour < 1266950160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was set as the bg colour though < 1266950186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, using ccbi x86_64 binary downloaded from your website today < 1266950372 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah inkscape isn't zooming to the correct place by default < 1266950387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it zooms at the pointer iirc < 1266950389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you scroll < 1266950402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with ctrl down) < 1266950417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's certainly how it works here < 1266950432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's failing at using my viewbox < 1266950441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it uses it just fine for cfunge for some reason < 1266950473 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It displays it fine in the preview thing when I have it selected in file->open < 1266950501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1266950538 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zooming in would take forever as it starts from like -200 to 800 and it's supposed to go to -0.001 to 0.002 or so < 1266950576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, svg uses +y as down right? < 1266950584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do I misremember? < 1266950590 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I'd think so < 1266950606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't it use a sane way like in math :/ < 1266950636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it seems to start pretty decently zoomed for ccbi output for me < 1266950645 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to for me too < 1266950647 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What version? < 1266950665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts it again < 1266950670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inkscape --version < 1266950705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.46 < 1266950708 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, all the more reason to rewrite this thing to not use tiny coordinates :-P < 1266950712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inkscape 0.47 r22583 (Jan 22 2010) < 1266950731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on 0.47 on my other computer I see those problems you mention < 1266950753 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright, so it's not my fault as such < 1266950753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge doesn't use tiny coordinates btw, both versions work fine there < 1266950773 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I planned on using SVG Tiny originally which had a limitation of +-32767 or some such, which is why I used tiny coordinates < 1266950796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, cfunge causes same issues as ccbi there < 1266950799 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ended up not doing so but I already had the coordinate impl at that point < 1266950806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial to fix < 1266950815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just stop scaling it < 1266950844 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'll lose all my cool optimizations for printing numbers ;-P < 1266950867 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think I disabled them already for some reason or other < 1266950893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it doesn't seem to emit 5e-5 which'd be shorter than .00005 < 1266951125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : But I'll lose all my cool optimizations for printing numbers ;-P <-- ? < 1266951148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you were golfing the TURT output < 1266951150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1266951166 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did help for stuff like the quine < 1266951197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1266951212 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, reduction measureable in kilobytes not bytes :-P < 1266951231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you still try to make the paths as long as possible < 1266951232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1266951236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using M if jumping < 1266951240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of creating a new path < 1266951247 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, turning .00005 to .5 will help even more < 1266951252 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes < 1266951253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I do that in cfunge but not in efunge. < 1266951265 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since SVG supports it, might as well < 1266951268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the quine is sluggish to zoom in with inkscape for the cfunge output < 1266951273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but snappy for the efunge output < 1266951280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems like a counter optimisation < 1266951295 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space for speed < 1266951308 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you only use M at the start of a path then? < 1266951312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, correct < 1266951314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in efunge < 1266951355 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How big are the quine SVGs from cfunge and efunge? < 1266951358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, only space optimisation I do is to delete dots that are hidden under other dots or under "corner" points of paths < 1266951405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a reasonably fast "scan the cons-style list from newest to oldest and built a set (erlang stdlib provides that) with coordinates, remove circles if they are already in it" < 1266951418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you have to remember to get circles and lines in the straight order < 1266951423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if you do that < 1266951426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge doesn't it seems < 1266951433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it always draws lines first then circles < 1266951462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but those two groups have their order preserved internally < 1266951467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not between each other < 1266951532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw I assume your output contains no newlines then? < 1266951543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm it does < 1266951554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also "#00f000" < 1266951560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266951561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread < 1266951572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck you do turn 0000ff into 00f < 1266951576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266951581 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course ;-P < 1266951597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what is the algorithm for that. The one I can think of is fairly wordy < 1266951613 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry: "Etcha does the turtle thing, but combines it with the program source" -- it actually doesn't. It's like BitChanger but uses a turtle graphics playfield instead of a tape. < 1266951640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if (buf[1] == buf[2] && buf[3] == buf[4] && buf[5] == buf[6]) < 1266951641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh I bookmarked it for later < 1266951649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, *cringe* < 1266951654 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1266951660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that assumes you have a fairly imperative language < 1266951670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really < 1266951676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, now go implement it in scheme < 1266951689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for cons-list style strings < 1266951702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or maybe in haskell < 1266951705 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those can still be indexed? < 1266951714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, can cons lists really? < 1266951716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266951719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cdar < 1266951720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1266951739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or was it cadr? I always mix those up) < 1266951759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, I never remember which order to read the operations in) < 1266951817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh cadr it seems < 1266951823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't make a lot of sense to me < 1266951847 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncurry (==) $ join (***) (map fst) $ (filter (even.snd) &&& filter (odd.snd)) $ zip (tail x) [0..] < 1266951861 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is how I'd write that comparison in Haskell if I wanted to be general about it < 1266951871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where x is the #rrggbb string < 1266951901 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I wanted to be nongeneral I'd do (x !! 1 == x !! 2 && x !! 3 == ...) < 1266951918 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's also less efficient since it traverses the list multiple times :-P < 1266951934 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFK for a bit -> < 1266952053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, found the cause of the wrong colour circle in ccbi yet? < 1266952059 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :match([X,X|r]) -> match(r); match([]) -> true; match(_) -> false < 1266952078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wth at that tail (assuming erlang) < 1266952098 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? < 1266952105 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My syntax isn't exact < 1266952106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, lower case R < 1266952112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an atom < 1266952115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine. < 1266952117 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R. < 1266952126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you coded erlang before, there is no excuse ;) < 1266952165 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266952210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm does css and svg accept color:red/color="red"? < 1266952218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so that is shorter than #f00 < 1266952225 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was merely surprised you didn't see there was an elegant way to express it in a functional language that you'. < 1266952230 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re fluent in... < 1266952249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I'm not that fluent, also I found that somewhat non-elegant < 1266952318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, however it's late and I had not just _a_ heavy day but several heavy days. And another one tomorrow... < 1266952389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway, I have the colour as a binary at that point it seems. I blame io_lib:format for this < 1266952399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very strange < 1266952406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since no binary was involved < 1266952443 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not looking < 1266952444 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Binaries always made me hesistate, but I *think* you can say things like <> to match them < 1266952642 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266952661 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like all (uncurry (==)) . map snd . filter fst . zip (cycle [True,False]) . ap zip tail . tail might be nicer actually < 1266952686 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1266952688 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Is this kind of stuff less puke-worthy? < 1266952700 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1266952700 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266952704 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's worse < 1266952709 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D'oh < 1266952720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: ap zip tail? < 1266952730 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know as well as I do that that should be zip`ap`tail. < 1266952739 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Aztec god of consecutive numbers. < 1266952747 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that it could be, not that it should be < 1266952772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a more serious note: I find infix "ap" to be much more readable. < 1266952775 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In expressions like that where it'd need extra brackets to invoke the gawd I'd rather leave it as such < 1266952812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm... < 1266952832 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(zip `ap` tail) is nicer IMO, but... Whatever. < 1266952843 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<*> has unfortunate precedence too, so that doesn't help < 1266952871 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think the Erlang version is closest to how I think. < 1266952875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're not going to get anything better, because of the precedence of 「.」. < 1266952923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes, but that requires writing a separate function ;-) < 1266952926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: I'm not looking <-- at what? < 1266952933 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For bugs. < 1266952940 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the code, whatever. < 1266952952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a side note, non-English punctuation is really nice for discussing programming. Doesn't collide at all for most languages. < 1266952968 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"" is not English punctuation < 1266952979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1266952980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh. < 1266952983 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not punctuation. < 1266952998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Don"t confuse us. < 1266952999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why not? < 1266953015 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well ' isn't English punctuation either :) < 1266953029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Other word that refers to various bits of non-pronouncable inline metadata used in the writing of natural language. < 1266953041 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although on the rare occasions that people use the correct apostrophe... they just get laughed at < 1266953064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway for 3 colours you could just do [$#,X,X,Y,Y,Z,Z] < 1266953069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that would be nice < 1266953077 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because TURT isn't on the top of my TODO list :-P < 1266953086 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Struth! < 1266953088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nor is ccbi I guess? < 1266953097 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant, "of CCBI" < 1266953108 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, it isn't either, as such < 1266953115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well okay. Still ccbi 1 still recieves bug fixes I thought? < 1266953125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :receives* < 1266953168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd rather avoid messing with CCBI1 at all unless it's something relatively important < 1266953191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and TURT isn't? < 1266953207 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not IMO, especially since it mostly works :-P < 1266953217 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do you have a simple testcase for the north/south thing? < 1266953269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? well you may be right, the coordinate system of svg confused me I think < 1266953287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright < 1266953291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but the wrong colour of dot: yes < 1266953299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is src/turt.b98 < 1266953301 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So now there's that colour thing and preserving order of lines/points < 1266953303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266953306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually tests/turt.b98 < 1266953307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test/turt.b98 < 1266953308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1266953310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah tests even < 1266953313 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1266953320 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266953323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, obviously you found it by yourself though < 1266953341 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus my 93-line TODO for CCBI grows by four lines. < 1266953345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway do you optimise #f00 into red? < 1266953349 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1266953356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, :/ < 1266953360 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266953365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what? < 1266953373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik it is legal < 1266953376 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :":/" seems hardly warranted :-D < 1266953387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially from someone who outputs #ff0000 < 1266953389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, THINK OF THE EXTRA BYTES < 1266953393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that an optimisation? < 1266953399 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It saves a byte of space < 1266953401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, fewer bytes < 1266953412 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the want of a byte of space, the kingdom was lost. < 1266953464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway I was ridiculing you for your extreme space optimisations that are time pessimisationsa < 1266953467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/a$// < 1266953478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you still try to format the svg nicely < 1266953482 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"red" is the only one with any advantage, I think < 1266953489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of un-needed newlines and spaces < 1266953509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge puts it all on one line (due to using the genx library to generate the xml) < 1266953511 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know < 1266953515 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266953519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ehird managed to convince me to do that, not sure why) < 1266953540 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might do that M-only-at-start thing as well, seems nice enough < 1266953541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since it outputs stuff like: ) < 1266953575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, the defined colours are actually stuff like #808080 as well, so there's more advantage to be had < 1266953585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? < 1266953604 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuing from my '"red" is the only one with any advantage, I think' < 1266953621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, iirc those are (used to be?) different between browsers < 1266953632 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're well-defined < 1266953633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only ones you could trust were black/white/red/blue/green < 1266953642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, this might have been when HTML 4 was still new < 1266953644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are 16 defined colours in HTML 4.0 < 1266953645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember < 1266953653 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And those same colours are defined in SVG 1.1 < 1266953668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so which ones are advantages? < 1266953670 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which actually linked to the CSS 2.0 spec < 1266953686 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's system colours as well, which obviously aren't portable < 1266953707 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: silver, gray, maroon, red, purple, green, olive, navy, teal < 1266953708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw why no DOCTYPE? < 1266953718 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did CSS steal the colour list from X11, or vice versa? < 1266953722 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do they both have a common source? < 1266953731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, X11 has a colour list? < 1266953736 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think X11 defines more colours than CSS? < 1266953737 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1266953749 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of them are really weirdly named < 1266953752 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: hmm, maybe < 1266953755 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/#doctype-declaration < 1266953818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the link to why is dead < 1266953836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least to where they tell it < 1266953840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get a redirect loop < 1266953856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Accept cookies from yahoo.com < 1266953875 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or enable javascript or whatever you have disabled < 1266953903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But anyway, the fact that SVG 1.2 won't have one is also some proof I guess < 1266953904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I use lynx atm < 1266953909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try w3m < 1266953914 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be a problem < 1266953919 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1266953922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't have X running < 1266953927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on this system < 1266953942 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you probably won't be able to use yahoo groups < 1266953954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe google has a cached copy < 1266953971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, cache:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/48562 worked < 1266953972 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, We have managed out of existence of interconnecting principles, then they were < 1266953973 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: cyrus! are you leaving! we must use! let's show ' em! 200g per night. care, and stay...healthy! my husband...he's...he's...gone... but he left me precious gifts! the seeds...and our child, it's ancient history now... < 1266954003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you sounded almost as bad as fungot there XD < 1266954004 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: cyrus! are you leaving! back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place... < 1266954010 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, I try. :) < 1266954112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is there any good svg validator btw? < 1266954128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, since the w3c one accepted a viewbox of "hello" < 1266954136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1266954168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know of any others < 1266954180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and the w3c one is obviously quite useless < 1266954215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw how easy would it be in ccbi to replace the rendering to svg with a completely different format? < 1266954248 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on how easy it is to render that format :-P < 1266954258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, lets say png < 1266954274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know enough about image formats to be able to say anything < 1266954288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, any bitmap format then < 1266954301 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But basically the stuff is stored as paths and dots < 1266954320 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it depends on how easily you can turn that into an image < 1266954323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how funge specific is it? < 1266954348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I mean, does the turtle part have a clean and nice interface that could be used for other things? < 1266954378 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's hardly any interface < 1266954392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in efunge that is the case, and it can render to two formats, though one is slightly cheating: svg and raw (debug dump of all the nodes)) < 1266954417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rendering once you have the data is trivial enough to do to any format (assuming you can render paths and dots) < 1266954419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still haven't made it save to a file though < 1266954476 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting the original image data to render is something that's only "cleanly" doable through the funge commands < 1266954503 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1266954514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do you mean with that? < 1266954560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that the only "clean" interface to getting a turtle-drawn picture is the funge commands, there's no nice turtle.moveforward(10) or turtle.turnright(45) or anything < 1266954611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :start/0, start_link/0, stop/0, get_info/0, clear/0, render/1, rotate/1, set_heading/1, jump/1, move/1, set_bg_colour/1, set_pen_colour/1, set_pen_state/1]). < 1266954619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err ignore that ]). at the end < 1266954620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1266954630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the api for efunge_turtle.erl < 1266954660 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have hardly any API, just a few structs and then the functions defining the funge commands < 1266954679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, even in cfunge I mostly have separate functions for it, though not completely < 1266954684 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A few helpers do exist which could be part of an API if there were one < 1266954688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would require some work to pick it out < 1266954694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not much < 1266954695 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266954718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and render returns an iolist < 1266954747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(erlang data type of mixed, possibly deep, cons list containing mixed binaries and cons-style strings) < 1266954780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since the file and console io routines can work with this it is common for purposes where you expect it to go to IO only) < 1266954791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no need to flattern it in any sort of nice way) < 1266954924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw an idea for an interesting bitmap format: start with the middle pixel, then the one above it, then the one left of that < 1266954928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then one down < 1266954930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1266954933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a spiral < 1266954997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nice property is that even if the image is cut off somewhere near the middle you would still get the center of the image where the most interesting things usually are < 1266955022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Deewiant: opinions? < 1266955073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for non-square pictures you could just skip over the parts outside (would require a header with dimensions then) < 1266955112 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it has a nice streamableness to it < 1266955122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, har < 1266955127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually < 1266955128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1266955165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically like: < 1266955167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v<<<<< < 1266955167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vv<<<^ < 1266955167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vvv<^^ < 1266955167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vvv^^^ < 1266955167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vv>>^^ < 1266955168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v>>>>^ < 1266955172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>... < 1266955172 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a "not really a part of the picture" color, you could do non-square pictures without a header (run-length encoding the pixels would help here) < 1266955205 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, you could do arbitrarily-shaped pictures with that "color" :) < 1266955217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes basically like alpha right? < 1266955226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1266955250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway, sure you could have an alpha channel or whatever < 1266955253 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess, with the additional implication that "you can just discard this part of the picture after it's done" < 1266955259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266955266 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to "I want a transparent border" or something < 1266955273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266955291 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, very similar to alpha otherwise. < 1266955294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would require removing one specific shade or adding one more bit/byte < 1266955322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I imagine one would use 16-bit integers per channel here < 1266955332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or 8 bits at the very least < 1266955345 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR, you could embed commands to clip the existing image -- and additional pixels should flow around the new clipped region. < 1266955359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32-bit floating point per channel is kind of heavy (I have dealt with HDR, I know this) < 1266955365 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could stream entire slideshows, in a strange manner, if you went that way < 1266955378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how? < 1266955398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stream a spiral, clip it to 0x0, stream another spiral, clip it... < 1266955405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1266955409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266955426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I wasn't thinking of the streaming aspect of it before < 1266955432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is interesting indeed < 1266955448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I wonder how well it would compress though < 1266955456 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like the idea of embedding a "command" as much < 1266955474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you could use embedded befunge ;) < 1266955489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would fit the 2D nature < 1266955495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, RLE is probably the simplest kind of compression you could do < 1266955498 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Har < 1266955518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I was thinking of "how well will deflate work on this < 1266955534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1266955852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you know if you can set r of a circle using css in svg? < 1266955856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would save quite a lot < 1266955877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and no you can't. < 1266955889 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember you asking me about this a year+ ago too ;-P < 1266955935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266956696 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Triton cluster has 112 compute nodes. Each of them has two 6-core "AMD Opteron 2435" CPUs, which corresponds to total of 1344 cores." Yay, more university-internal computational resources. < 1266956735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you have access to that? < 1266956746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or will have rather < 1266956773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that you could build some nice models for fungot! ;P < 1266956773 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it? < 1266956776 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Though we have to share it with the physicists and the BECS ("Biomedical Engineering and Computational Science") people, so it'll probably be a bit crowded. < 1266956820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pushed TURT updates to cfunge and the new TURT for efunge < 1266956849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still some TODO for the efunge one. Like compact colours and properly testing clear when pen is down < 1266956881 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266956952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw isn't black the default colour of paths and circles? < 1266956962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming no css overrides) < 1266956969 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no defined default for anything < 1266956975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1266956984 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or did you mean SVG? < 1266956989 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about SVG, that was about TURT < 1266957020 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Words and phrases to use in specs! "Of course", "Generally", "Without a doubt", "Except for trivial cases", "Positive angle relative to east" < 1266957031 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1266957121 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've learned my lesson -- unfortunately my newfound zest for precision will probably not be applied to Befunge anytime soon. < 1266957355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Befunge-111 < 1266957373 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, hey, speaking of inprecise specs < 1266957385 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: TOYS: B ('pair of shoes') pops two cells off the stack and pushes the result of a "butterfly" bit operation. < 1266957422 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't /think/ we've asked you what 'a "butterfly" bit operation' was supposed to be < 1266957446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1266957449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to know too < 1266957461 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've asked a lot of people, but I don't think we've asked you ;-) < 1266957465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the only one we found doesn't work on that number of inputs iirc < 1266957477 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, we've got the (a+b, a-b) one < 1266957492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes, but that one was just copied from some other interpreter < 1266957494 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reverse-engineered from !Befunge < 1266957498 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But also justified < 1266957500 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1266957509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1266957541 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_diagram < 1266957606 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was inspired by the mention in here: http://catseye.tc/projects/starw/doc/starw.html < 1266957615 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I have no idea why it has two inputs, or what that means. < 1266957616 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. < 1266957618 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266957623 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266957637 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Butterfly the bits of X, i.e., 11001100 becomes 10100101." < 1266957641 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW I have no idea what that butterfly does either < 1266957642 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a great spec. < 1266957649 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep :-) < 1266957676 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_%28disambiguation%29 < 1266957691 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ATM, "Butterfliies Eat Pants" is the current vandalism. < 1266957711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1266957718 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DESU < 1266957742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: もっとです? < 1266957822 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the 8-bit diagram in the Butterfly_diagram page might explain the *W butterfly operation < 1266957827 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266957831 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or not < 1266957867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it looks like it tries to distribute those one-bits symmetrically? < 1266957876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to a pleasing pattern perhaps < 1266957899 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's as good as anything I can come up with :) < 1266957939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, note that the two identical nibbles (separated with space): 1100 1100 becomes 1010 0101 < 1266957953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :patterns to note: < 1266957962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :identical nibbles in input < 1266957975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symmetrical output byte < 1266957992 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you change directions in my language, you can change 1100 to 0011 or to 1000 if you're not careful! < 1266957993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mirror nibbles (follows from the previous one though) < 1266958006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every other bit is one in each nibble < 1266958024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only place with two identical bits is where the nibbles join up < 1266958060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is clearly very significant for, uh... significant reasons! < 1266958083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of great significance of course) < 1266958095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should also be noted that the sign bit was *not* changed < 1266958097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again very important < 1266958098 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's this < 1266958110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ? < 1266958113 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first 1100 -> 1x1x0x0x < 1266958122 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second 1100 -> x0x0x1x1 < 1266958127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what are those x? < 1266958129 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(second is like first just mirrored) < 1266958140 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x means "use the bit from the other half" < 1266958154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1266958158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what < 1266958166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266958168 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you combin 1x1x0x0x and x0x0x1x1 you get: 10100101 < 1266958183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah interesting. You know this would have been trivial in intercal I think < 1266958189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is kind of amazing < 1266958219 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, there's your answer, I think. For two inputs, just treat each like the nibbles in *W < 1266958255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but then the answer is twice the number of bits of the funge implementations? < 1266958265 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1266958268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/s\?/\?/ < 1266958280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway it doesn't work out < 1266958300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1266958304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just push two separate cells < 1266958313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one with the upper 64 bits and one with the lower 64 bits < 1266958318 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure! < 1266958321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course this breaks down for bignum < 1266958322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1266958330 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the spec doesn't say how many result values there should be for B < 1266958364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but it is impossible in a bignum funge. < 1266958386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mandates a "bignum considerations" section after the "security considerations" for future fingerprints < 1266958396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, want to see the ATHR spec btw? < 1266958413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is somewhat in a flux < 1266958417 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I've mentioned, Funge, like C, just doesn't do bignum. < 1266958424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to trying to figure out what is feasible < 1266958425 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1266958430 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can emulate bignums in C < 1266958432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and I declare that wrong. Becuase it does < 1266958433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266958466 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do bignum" => "cleanly support bignums as a primitive type" < 1266958475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep < 1266958479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it works mostly < 1266958485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway http://sprunge.us/icgB < 1266958493 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because both languages define a MAXSIZE for integers. < 1266958494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is somewhat in flux due to various reasons < 1266958498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, -1 < 1266958501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I return -1 < 1266958504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that y thing < 1266958559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, at least be happy I don't insist on doing a balanced ternary bignum funge! < 1266958731 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ATHR looks pretty good, I like the books. < 1266958753 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1266958756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it is also rather well specced especially how it interacts with other known feral fingerprints < 1266958775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(especially the RCS ones which are infamously underspecced in general) < 1266958819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, I refuse to even try to figure out how it works with TRDS < 1266958848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is bound to cause issues when you time travel and have async threads < 1266959004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My head hurts. < 1266959048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, from TRDS alone or from ATHR + TRDS? < 1266959052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The implementation shall detect deadlocks (in a reasonably timely manner) when < 1266959052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two IIPC operations are waiting on each other and break them by making one of < 1266959052 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just me, or the link for downloading verisoft is dead? http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/god/verisoft/files.html < 1266959052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the blocking threads reverse. < 1266959056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :added that paragraph < 1266959069 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>From all of it. < 1266959103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what download link? Somewhere on that page? < 1266959124 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you mean charlls? < 1266959125 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1266959134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1266959136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right I did < 1266959145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :charlls, indeed it seems to be dead < 1266959152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :charlls, but look that page mentions .Z < 1266959154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is OLD < 1266959168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "http://www.gnu.ai.mit.edu/home.html." < 1266959170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth :) < 1266959173 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1266959220 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266959228 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know other model checking tools for c++? i've found inspect which seems somewhat mantained and ongoing but i'm not sure how to use it for lock-free primitives (cas and ll-sc) < 1266959238 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c/c++ i meant, c is fine too < 1266959258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :charlls, I have no clue < 1266959269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :charlls, I use a message passing language when I need to do threads < 1266959271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as erlang < 1266959280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I refuse to touch pthreads directly < 1266959284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!scramble scramble < 1266959295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is egobot here? < 1266959300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble scramble < 1266959300 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :srmlebac < 1266959306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or did you mean fungot? < 1266959307 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: we must do it to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!! < 1266959313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble srmlebac < 1266959314 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smeacblr < 1266959319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble smeacblr < 1266959320 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seclrbam < 1266959322 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!unscramble 11001100 < 1266959324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble seclrbam < 1266959325 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scramble < 1266959343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so at least for "scramble" it has a short period < 1266959345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ... < 1266959346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1266959350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble 11001100 < 1266959351 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10100101 < 1266959355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1266959356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1266959360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ^ < 1266959367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is the algorithm used there? < 1266959373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show scramble < 1266959374 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] < 1266959387 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble unscramble < 1266959387 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uenlsbcmra < 1266959397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble uenlsbcmra < 1266959398 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uaernmlcsb < 1266959401 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like butterflyification to me. < 1266959401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble uaernmlcsb < 1266959402 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ubasecrlnm < 1266959406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble ubasecrlnm < 1266959406 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umbnalsrec < 1266959410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble umbnalsrec < 1266959411 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ucmebrnsal < 1266959415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble ucmebrnsal < 1266959415 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ulcamsenbr < 1266959419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble ulcamsenbr < 1266959420 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urlbcnaems < 1266959425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble urlbcnaems < 1266959425 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usrmlebacn < 1266959430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble usrmlebacn < 1266959431 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unscramble < 1266959435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :longer period for that one < 1266959436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266959442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble 12345678 < 1266959443 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13578642 < 1266959453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble 12345678 < 1266959454 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18273645 < 1266959460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble 123456789 < 1266959461 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :192837465 < 1266959468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble 123456789 < 1266959468 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :135798642 < 1266959474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble abc < 1266959474 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acb < 1266959479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^scramble abcd < 1266959480 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :acdb < 1266959487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not quite I think < 1266959491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think we calculated periods around when those commands were first added < 1266959500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1266959509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^list < 1266959511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show < 1266959512 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble < 1266959514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^unscramble 12345678 < 1266959514 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18273645 < 1266959518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show wc < 1266959518 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[] < 1266959522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1266959524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ < 1266959534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show ul < 1266959535 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>,[>,]<[<]>[<+4[>-8<-]+>-[-7[-2[<+3[>-4<-]+>[<+4[>-5<-]+>[-11[-3[[-]<2[>[-]>+<2-]>>[<2+>>-]+<[->-<3[[>+<-]<]>>[>]]>[->[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]<[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[[[>]>+<2[<]>-]<2[[>+<-]<]>>[>]>[>]>[<2[<]<[<]<+>>[>]>[>]>-]<2[<]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]]]<[->>[>]<[[>>+<2-]<]<2[[>+<-]<]>+>[>]+5[>+8<-]+2>-[<+[<]>+[>]<-]]>]<[->>[[<2+>>-]>]<3[[>+<-]<]]>]<[-<[[<]>.[-]>[[<+>-]>]>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<2]>>>[[<+>-]>]<2[<]<]>]<[->>[>]<[[>+<-]<]<2[>>>>[>] < 1266959541 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x2x3x4x, x8x7x6x5 < 1266959542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that one is cut short < 1266959557 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also not used. < 1266959566 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what that wc is about. < 1266959572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't look very worky. < 1266959576 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^wc foo bar baz < 1266959576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ul isn't used? < 1266959588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what then is it for < 1266959606 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show choo < 1266959606 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] < 1266959608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show cho < 1266959609 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] < 1266959613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^cho test < 1266959615 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :testeststt < 1266959618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that brainfuck code is just a leftover from time before Underload was a directly supported language by fungot. < 1266959618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^choo test < 1266959618 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^choo test < 1266959619 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... < 1266959619 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test est st t < 1266959619 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test est st t < 1266959623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1266959640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^pow2 test < 1266959641 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ... < 1266959645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1266959649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show pow2 < 1266959649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That one doesn't take any inputs. < 1266959649 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+2[[<+7[-<+7>]>[-<+<+>>]<[->+<]<-2.[-]<]+4[->+8<]>.[-]>>[-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>-8>+>[->+>+<2]+>>[<2->>[-]]<2[>+<-]>[-<+>]<4-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<-[>+2<[-]]]]]]]]]]<[->+<]>+>[-<+>]>>]<3] < 1266959652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, right < 1266959656 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just outputs powers of two. < 1266959657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show source < 1266959658 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98)S < 1266959663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show help < 1266959663 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool)S < 1266959674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show show < 1266959678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1266959683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show hw < 1266959684 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>+9[<+8>-]<.>+7[<+4>-]<+.+7..+3.>>>+8[<+4>-]<.>>>+10[<+9>-]<-3.<4.+3.-6.-8.>>+. < 1266959688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^hw < 1266959689 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello World! < 1266959713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^fib < 1266959714 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55.89.144.233.377.610.987.1597.2584.4181.6765.10946.17711.28657.46368.75025.121393.196418.317811.514229.832040.1346269.2178309.3524578.5702887.9227465.14930352.24157817.39088169.632459 ... < 1266959738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what is your opinion on the coding style in http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 ;) < 1266959738 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: frog will do. the king fought the mystics over 400 long years. when will it be the reptites, or you silly apes who end up ruling the world? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. < 1266959756 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should at some point fix that >>> bug too. It collapses multiple <<>>s. < 1266959813 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266959824 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have no strong feelings about it. < 1266959826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what was that triangle in the code for now again? < 1266959831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, around line 157 < 1266959890 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Converts punctuation token indices to characters. < 1266959893 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just amazed the thing actually works. < 1266959905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well it uses the SOCK fingerprint for sockets of course < 1266959914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's really no reason to have a triangle there, since a "comb-style" jump table would work as well. < 1266959936 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1266959937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or a binary w tree? < 1266959953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that too, but since it's a contiguous range, I think a jump table makes sense. < 1266959959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The letters above the triangle are comments, in fact. < 1266959962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a j table yes < 1266959962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also pretty. < 1266959977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, have you looked at mycology source then? < 1266959984 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. < 1266959997 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology's a lot wider, it's not always easy to look at it. < 1266960014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, http://sprunge.us/KcWN < 1266960016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what fizzie said < 1266960022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also contains a literal null byte < 1266960025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to test that < 1266960052 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Christ. < 1266960065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the upper corner is a 93 test suite < 1266960070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest is for 98 < 1266960083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can see it is somewhat more compact up there < 1266960087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also Deewiant wrote it < 1266960090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also,* < 1266960113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see how he can maintain it :) < 1266960119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm happy he does though < 1266960160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I love the vertical strings in it < 1266960162 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266960169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how some stuff is used differently in different directions < 1266960193 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL is not IWBTG. Malbolge is. < 1266960218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IWBTG? < 1266960235 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I Wanna Be The Guy. < 1266960244 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Insanely hard computer game. < 1266960287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266960307 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Per the topic. < 1266960323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hadn't noticed < 1266960333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1266960364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1266960369 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology is 180 columns wide < 1266960379 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology? < 1266960392 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably matches what fits in UltraEdit-32, 1600x1200, Andale Mono 10pt or something < 1266960396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/KcWN < 1266960418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, or official source: http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology.html < 1266960431 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or permalink: http://iki.fi/matti.niemenmaa/befunge/mycology.html < 1266960457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I just copy from top of browser. Always. At all sites. < 1266960472 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then you're an idiot < 1266960477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why? < 1266960486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should work. It makes sense if it works < 1266960488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is easiest < 1266960489 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's not always the best link to use < 1266960500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then the wrong link is displayed at the top < 1266960511 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all URLs are permanent < 1266960515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if you must use FBBI" < 1266960515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1266960545 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should *probably* apply those patches. Someday. < 1266960571 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, Befunge-111. Ha. < 1266960577 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that one of them is by you I'm surprised it isn't applied :-P < 1266960585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, befunge-111? < 1266960588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that < 1266960603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well I was the guy working on s/108/109/ < 1266960612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but well, few people seemed to care < 1266960655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, probably the number of people who do care is greater than the number who seem to care. < 1266960676 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would never have guessed that there would be that many Befunge-98 implementations out there. < 1266960679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest a technical memorandum clarifying k, fixing t behaviour (so it doesn't spawn infinite threads, no one implements the spec to the letter here), and clarifying out-of-order fingerprint unloading < 1266960704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus probably some other minor points < 1266960708 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest doing something about every UNDEF in Mycology ;-P < 1266960717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, possibly < 1266960727 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266960727 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266960731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but most of them are in RCS fingerprints < 1266960752 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266960757 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266960767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also define k on k < 1266960771 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yes, obviously not those ones < 1266960772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which Deewiant refuses to touch < 1266960781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I worked it out for cfunge) < 1266960783 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see k on k as perfectly well defined :-P < 1266960787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? < 1266960792 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You worked out your own view on the matter < 1266960799 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think mine is what CCBI implements :-P < 1266960807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you don't handle k on k is what you said before < 1266960816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't special-case it < 1266960820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec doesn't; why should I < 1266960831 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too thrilled about the idea of an "addendum". There needs to be a new spec. < 1266960834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means it ends up in a very very strange way iirc < 1266960846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well corrigendum then < 1266960866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that can be applied with reasonable effort to existing implementations < 1266960871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Very very strange" - it's exactly what the spec defines :-P < 1266960875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while 111 are for more radical changes < 1266960884 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you can argue that the spec /should/ special-case k on k < 1266960887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, see what I mean? < 1266960898 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No. Or, maybe I do, and I disagree. < 1266960899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, k on k used to *crash* ccbi iirc < 1266960900 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But since it doesn't, I don't think any conforming interpreter should either < 1266960908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You misrecall < 1266960914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, maybe it was cfunge then < 1266960915 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to crash cfunge, maybe ;-P < 1266960923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know cfunge crashed on 3k@ < 1266960927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point < 1266960944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recall that < 1266960946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for t build only) < 1266960948 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is, and has been since 1999, that there are so many directions Funge could go "post-98". And, no one seemed interested. < 1266960960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I don't know what those directions are < 1266960972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but if I have anything to say there should be some room for bignum out there < 1266960985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another minor nit in the spec is the "team number" that y pushes < 1266960992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh yes < 1266960995 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Only significant for NetFunge, BeGlad, and the like." < 1266961000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe cpressey can explain wth it is < 1266961004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was supposed to be < 1266961005 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, just consider how many things could be taken out of the language because someone doesn't like them. < 1266961014 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I thought it was mentioned in those old mailing list logs? < 1266961018 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or how many features could be added in the name of "makes it harder to compile". < 1266961036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, some time ago we discussed 98s in this channel. Which is befunge98 but with all the commands also in befunge93 taken away < 1266961046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it resulted in a very strange and interesting language < 1266961047 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"team number" was for BeGlad, which was supposed to be Core Wars in Befunge < 1266961064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point I suggested there should be a 80x25 hole in fungespace from origo < 1266961068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was just insane < 1266961101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah interesting. And NetFunge was similar? < 1266961115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably for NetFunge it would be a like a node ID or something. < 1266961129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like I could abuse that thing for ATHR then < 1266961130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, that's the kind of thing that should be taken out. Should be in a fingerprint. < 1266961138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true < 1266961141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ATHR < 1266961143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, i never liked the fingerprint system much. < 1266961148 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i originally made TheSquare to be a sort of combat game of some sort < 1266961154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true they should use URIs < 1266961156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1266961161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was one plan for 109 < 1266961166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think it was the wrong thing to do < 1266961174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :collisions aren't that common < 1266961190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, still befunge without loadable extensions would mean the end to things like fungot and ATHR < 1266961191 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you! take! we find! you are crono. why not? then you should leave quickly! < 1266961209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, now where was that phrase from.... I remember it from ct... < 1266961209 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y. < 1266961236 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, the main thing I didn't like about it was that there was no real way to make it portable. But that's not a good reason. < 1266961251 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think handprints are worse, and should just be thrown out. < 1266961261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, let IANA give out the numbers < 1266961261 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by "portable", exactly? < 1266961271 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe have a handprint-revealing-fingerprint, at best. < 1266961272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./cfunge ../mycology/mycology.b98 | grep ^UNDEF | wc -l < 1266961272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :140 < 1266961273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ./cfunge -F ../mycology/mycology.b98 | grep ^UNDEF | wc -l < 1266961273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 < 1266961276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ^ < 1266961286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-F is "disable all fingerprints" < 1266961286 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Handprints are fairly useless, yes < 1266961303 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, you can't really package them, into say a .so < 1266961326 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not? < 1266961334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, fingerprints could in theory be loaded dynamically I guess but the speed penalties would be horrible < 1266961343 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall k was just an utter pain in the arse < 1266961348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I would refuse to do it for cfunge since cfunge is all about uttermost speed < 1266961351 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just the fact that there are different interpreters? < 1266961361 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well you CAN, but then, any implementation that doesn't easily support .so's, doesn't easily support fingerprint-packages. < 1266961390 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could do all kinds of messing about with SWIG and such, for say a Python implementation. < 1266961413 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's no way of implementing a fingerprint once and have it work for all implementations < 1266961414 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yes, I agree this can easily be outside the bounds of the language spec. < 1266961420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I run mycology in around 0.040 seconds (wall clock) < 1266961424 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think that's necessary a problem < 1266961431 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There could be a seperate module spec for modules that implement fingerprints, or something. < 1266961432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(measured with time builtin in bash) < 1266961439 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or multiple of those. < 1266961444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Deewiant: Well you CAN, but then, any implementation that doesn't easily support .so's, doesn't easily support fingerprint-packages. < 1266961446 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since fingerprints are sometimes so feral that it's not reasonable to do it anyway < 1266961453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how do you hook into the interpreter? < 1266961462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, after all they have very different internal representations < 1266961473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Like I said, module spec. < 1266961500 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd probably tie implementations to some design choices that the current spec doesn't < 1266961501 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is None Of My Business As Language Definer (or something like that.) < 1266961515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, for cfunge the stack is a malloced chunk with a pointer to the top of it. It is grown one page at a time and never shrinks. < 1266961521 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Only if they choose to follow it, which they wouldn't have to, to adhere to the language. < 1266961526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, for efunge it is a erlang list with top of stack at the start of the list < 1266961536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, no way those are even close to compatible internally < 1266961561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and funge space: a static array around 0,0 with a memory pool backed hash table for the rest (cfunge) or an ets table (efunge) < 1266961564 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In principle, you could write an adapter to whatever interface the module system uses. < 1266961574 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In principle. < 1266961581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah in your dreams < 1266961584 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no way I'd want to force that on any implementer. < 1266961598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about that mini-funge thing < 1266961602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with fingerprints in befunge itself < 1266961610 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, now you see why I answered Why not? the way I did :) < 1266961611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course works reasonably well for very tame fingerprints < 1266961636 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know what it is, but I have a secret project that sounds like it, but even better :) < 1266961649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and/or don't remember, if I did know once. < 1266961652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, just try implementing TRDS in minifunge < 1266961668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, here is the TRDS spec: http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#TRDS < 1266961703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and here is an addenum: http://rcfunge98.com/trds.html < 1266961705 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1266961712 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ....far out. < 1266961720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, ? < 1266961730 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just... like... wrong < 1266961739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, what? TRDS? < 1266961740 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The easiest way of implementing TRDS in minifunge is implementing a Funge-98 interpreter in minifunge < 1266961744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't write it < 1266961749 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266961758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, exactly < 1266961773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and ATHR you can't even do in minifunge < 1266961781 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The secret project, FWIW, is to combine Mascarpone and Befunge -- define Befunge with a reflective meta-circular interpreter. < 1266961785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because SOCK needs to be non-blocking w.r.t. other threads < 1266961787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for other IO < 1266961823 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1266961824 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Sure you can: write minifunge which writes a Funge-98 interpreter in to a file and then executes that < 1266961825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pitty scarf isn't here < 1266961834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise we could have suggested FTHR to him < 1266961838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That sounds quite scary < 1266961839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Feather for Befunge :D) < 1266961839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And actually the secret project was to be called "Beefgun" (an anagram of Befunge), not FWIW. < 1266961862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but = is implementation defined! < 1266961870 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Feather, exactly? < 1266961879 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So's minifunge :-P < 1266961879 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only heard scarf mention it once. < 1266961894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, a language where you can rewrite the interpreter retroactively kind of < 1266961898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't really explain it < 1266961910 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Retroactively" is scary, yeah. < 1266961930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, good point < 1266961951 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not on the wiki. < 1266961965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what isn't? < 1266961969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feather? < 1266961971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is known < 1266961975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the spec isn't finished < 1266961985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais/scarf is still working on working it out iirc < 1266962010 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1266962039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway I think ais/scarf is up to the task < 1266962041 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what would the Befunge-111 spec need to address? Cleaning up ambiguities, specifying bignum behavior, throwing out useless crap like handprints and team numbers < 1266962045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, after all he maintains C-intercal < 1266962052 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish him luck. < 1266962069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and he wrote/is writing gcc-bf (bf backend for gcc) < 1266962080 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Befunge-111 should add anything much to the language. < 1266962082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is done to a large part but quite untested and buggy still < 1266962109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason I wouldn't want it to just be an addendum is because it needs such an overhaul. < 1266962110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, bignum is quite simple. You need a special value (such as -1) for cell size < 1266962136 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If you're up to it, going through the Cat's Eye fingerprints would be nice too ;-) < 1266962158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and the rest that needs to be cleaned up for bignum is in fingerprints < 1266962169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the core language works just fine once you deal with y < 1266962180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ deal/'ve dealt/ < 1266962195 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is befunge-109 out or not? < 1266962204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It still needs to be *specified*, less some program assume they can rely on there always being a fixed size, or something. < 1266962206 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the partial spec < 1266962217 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, it's not "out" as such < 1266962223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, indeed < 1266962230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not out indeed < 1266962237 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't think I'm up for it, at least not as such. < 1266962258 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe TURT, since it seems popular (??!?) < 1266962282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, s/popular/discussed since it is ambig and I have been implementing it again recently < 1266962284 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really popular, just hard to test automatically which is why it's always buggy ;-) < 1266962296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what Deewiant said < 1266962302 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, OK. < 1266962319 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh. < 1266962338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOYS is quite nice but you need to reverse engineer large parts of it < 1266962340 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, it's hard to say what exactly is "popular" when we're starting out with Befunge-98 < 1266962341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I had to < 1266962347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On an unrelated tack, based on Safalra's method of evaluating the number of valid BF programs of length n, it would appear that a compression system could be worked out. < 1266962348 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not really. < 1266962395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One annoyance in TOYS is F and G's "pops a vector, then a value i" followed by "j groups of i cells each" <-- where did j come from?! < 1266962428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah stuff like that < 1266962432 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other than that, I don't think there's even any UNDEF stuff in TOYS, unless I misremember. < 1266962440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, butterfly < 1266962453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah, but that's so-so < 1266962470 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it weren't for the word "bit" in there I'd make it a non-undef at this point :-P < 1266962473 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838] < 1266962505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, to not break old programs those places where handprint and such were should be "reversed for backward compat/future reuse" or such < 1266962517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise offsets to y would need to be adjusted everywhere < 1266962521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be a pain < 1266962540 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So you think Befunge-111 should be 100% compatible with Befunge-98? < 1266962564 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that anything less could mean major rewrites for existing programs. < 1266962578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, no, but something like "most programs should work just fine" < 1266962582 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, those programs can still be run under -98 implementations. < 1266962593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 93 does in 98 possibly with some non-SGML space emulation < 1266962603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a few programs depend on stuff like f reflecting < 1266962612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we won't run into that, all instructions are in use after all < 1266962614 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-111 could really be a clarified / decrapped -98 < 1266962630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, you forgot "bug fixed" < 1266962638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since t in 98 as written in the spec doesn't work < 1266962652 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1266962653 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to have to read this "spec" of which you speak, someday. < 1266962656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new ip will there execute t on the first turn < 1266962665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ;P < 1266962678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, only writing something doesn't give a really good picture of it < 1266962683 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to read it as well < 1266962684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266962687 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm happy with breaking programs that rely on some of the fuxxier corners. < 1266962702 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As long as I don't have to rewrite all of Mycology < 1266962708 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TheSquare does concurrency by bouncing an IP backwards; however, i think you'd be best to go left/right < 1266962709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes, but y offsets is not one of those for stuff like "elements on TOSS" < 1266962719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which iirc is offset 21 or 23 < 1266962722 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a bounce back would imply that it's not supported < 1266962723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember exactly < 1266962731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for *be*funge that is) < 1266962742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't deal with other dimensionality normally) < 1266962750 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, so < 1266962772 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, actually... < 1266962772 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1266962774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, ? < 1266962778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1266962783 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it should bounce back < 1266962789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should indeed bounce < 1266962791 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and send something forward < 1266962794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since 1) you check it with t < 1266962796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1266962797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with y < 1266962801 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unicode? < 1266962806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) you can see if anything else came the other way < 1266962817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, would be a pain for cfunge. fine for efunge < 1266962831 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way I read the spec, Unicode is currently optional < 1266962835 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my main reason was that if one had Unefunge / Trefunge, it'd just be plain confusing < 1266962836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, since cfunge takes every shortcut available for speed. Including mmap()ing to load files < 1266962838 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're allowed to have it or not < 1266962844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what Deewiant said < 1266962853 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI2 will have it as an option < 1266962864 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, if it's finished before Funge-111 < 1266962874 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking more along the lines of 'stop using the word ASCII so damned much'. < 1266962875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge currently does byte io for files and unicode code point IO for stdio < 1266962893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this could be trivially changed (5-10 minutes of work at most) < 1266962898 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kleinefunge could be interesting =D < 1266962908 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't think there are any egregious uses of ASCII < 1266962957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway, what about EBCDIC? :( < 1266962962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"However, a Funge-98 interpreter may also expose any number of proprietary instructions above ASCII 127 or below ASCII 0." -- internally, they shouldn't be thought of as ASCII, or even "characters" really, they're instructions. < 1266962991 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, stack stack? < 1266963000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I considered making 2^666 in efunge print "BIGNUM!" < 1266963004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point < 1266963012 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about the stack stack? It's actually useful < 1266963021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes stack stack is nice < 1266963027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Deewiant would hate if it went away < 1266963035 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would miss it but not as badly < 1266963050 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 would be an amusing thing to have < 1266963052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would I miss it more? < 1266963057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, -1 what? < 1266963061 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just point out that it's equivalent to a single stack, plus a special marker that can be placed on the stack to partition it into sub-stacks. < 1266963063 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an instruction index < 1266963065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yeah I think so < 1266963073 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1266963087 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's an implementation detail < 1266963087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not quite, there is the storage offset. Also you can't optimise the way you suggested as well < 1266963099 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: True. < 1266963105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, after all, I do memcpy between stacks when I can avoid reversing order < 1266963108 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall storage offset, will look. < 1266963110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266963118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow you are rusty :) < 1266963122 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The storage offset isn't really related to stack stacks in any way < 1266963123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no offence meant) < 1266963133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just coincidentally modified by the same commands that modify the stack stack < 1266963137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1266963149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, idea: storage delta offset < 1266963155 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, i've only been busy designing like two dozen other !@#$%^&*ing languages since 1998 < 1266963159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Y'wot? < 1266963175 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn i used to have the catseye rss feed < 1266963176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that way you can not just move it, you can mirror it and what not < 1266963177 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yeah, your time would've been better spent memorizing the Funge-98 spec as you wrote it < 1266963188 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Damn straight. < 1266963200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, exactly ;P < 1266963205 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: How can you "mirror" the value put by p? < 1266963247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well for bignum compat it would have to be around the 0 axis, which is now moved thanks to the storage offset < 1266963285 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One problem is that I find new designs much more interesting, so I have a hard time not thinking about them when looking at something like this. < 1266963288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 0,2 with a storage delta of -1,-1 gives you the position -2 relative that offset < 1266963294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, see what I mean? < 1266963304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What's the point? Why not just modify the offset directly? < 1266963307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only I could make a nice animation showing what I meant < 1266963311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no but it is mirrored < 1266963316 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :burro was interesting IIRC < 1266963322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so higher value is in the other direction < 1266963340 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So add the negation of the value to the offset < 1266963345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, imagine you rotate befunge along the X axis 180 degrees < 1266963349 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this seems kinda interesting: http://www3.sympatico.ca/mt0000/bicom/bicom.html < 1266963362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, multiply the value with the storage delta rather < 1266963379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do it relative storage offset < 1266963383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, see what I mean now? < 1266963394 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So it modifies the value, not the position, now? < 1266963408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes, it is an additional value to storage offset < 1266963411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both would co-exist < 1266963417 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap: Burro is broken, but I have a fix for it... slowly underway. < 1266963442 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmkay < 1266963444 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: So it's just a multiplier that is applied to p/g values? < 1266963505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : also this seems kinda interesting: http://www3.sympatico.ca/mt0000/bicom/bicom.html <-- how can that work and still be a compression? < 1266963511 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrt bicom: wow crap, a c++ program that actually compiles properly! < 1266963516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some inputs must grow instead of shrink < 1266963519 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I was thinking that vectors would be atomic objects (pop 2 vectors off stack, add them and push resulting vector, etc) < 1266963531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm yes < 1266963538 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: same deal happens with most compressions < 1266963541 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1266963543 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all compressions < 1266963544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, should be more like able to skew stuff. Maybe we should have a translation matrix instead < 1266963550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rotation matrix or something < 1266963552 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for cat compression, where the input is the same as the output < 1266963554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for really fancy stuff < 1266963582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I considered tagged tupes in funge-space/on stack at one point < 1266963584 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the idea would be to split it into blocks and make sure that they remap correctly < 1266963596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, for implementing FPSP/FPDP (floating point support) < 1266963612 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait... it's not really that bijective :/ < 1266963615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but erlang has sucky floating point semantics for NaN/inf so I decided not to < 1266963627 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rwxr-xr-x 1 ben ben 83742 2010-02-24 11:18 bc < 1266963627 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-r--r-- 1 ben ben 33528 2010-02-24 11:20 bc.bc < 1266963627 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-r--r-- 1 ben ben 33941 2010-02-24 11:20 bc.bc.bc < 1266963627 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rw-r--r-- 1 ben ben 34369 2010-02-24 11:20 bc.bc.bc.bc < 1266963641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, what? < 1266963641 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohthatispoopy. < 1266963652 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :USAGE: bc [-d] [-p passwd] < 1266963652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I guess there is bc/unbc < 1266963652 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -d: decompress (default is compress) < 1266963660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1266963666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gm|lap, so not same function both ways < 1266963669 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it might also use LZ < 1266963699 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses arithmetic coding AFAIK < 1266963733 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might try a truly bijective audio compression scheme < 1266963767 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just treat everything as an elias gamma code or something like that < 1266963777 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then remap where appropriate or something < 1266963783 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...that's not going to work, is it? :/ < 1266963800 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan B: pair some chars together in a special way < 1266963816 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be like a samplewise huffman < 1266963826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266963837 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably catch a delta of it or something < 1266963858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway vectors being atomic would be annoying for cfunge that depends on the plain integer nature of funge space < 1266963873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, in the inline SSE asm for example (there are C fallbacks, but still) < 1266963930 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, it would be a different language. < 1266963944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are you scared of cfunge yet? < 1266963948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1266963953 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not really... < 1266963987 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am starting to have some ideas for befunge-111, which is scaring me. < 1266964020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, mmap(), posix_madvise(), inline SSE asm, regparm calling convention on 32-bit x86 (using gcc __attribute__s), static array for the most commonly used funge space area around origo and hash library to fill out the rest < 1266964023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the list can go on < 1266964031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with various stack-stack optimisations < 1266964041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and y that is a lookup table for low fixed-offset values < 1266964044 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever gets you through the night :) < 1266964052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "whatever makes me fastest" in cfunge < 1266964057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is executed so rarely... < 1266964063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not in mycology < 1266964070 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, true < 1266964071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is one of the things I speed test against < 1266964100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh and there is an option to use fully buffered stdout of course < 1266964139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology really isn't worth speed-testing against, it's too quick to run through :-P < 1266964150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not for that befunge in perl < 1266964154 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would anyone kick and scream if Befunge-111 was only defined for 2 dimensions? Generalizing to different #s of dimensions would be nicer in that language where vectors are first class. < 1266964158 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266964161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, only JIT-funge beats cfunge < 1266964166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and jitfunge is basically dead < 1266964172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless fizzie starts working on it again < 1266964173 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just because there exists a slow implementation doesn't mean the test case isn't fast < 1266964198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, mike Riley might < 1266964201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl urg < 1266964207 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"urg"? < 1266964223 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too much cfungeing for one night? < 1266964236 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either something "urg"ent came up, or... < 1266964238 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea behind compression: each file is a number, e.g. a file containing 0xBEEF might be the number 0x1BEEF (you need that top bit to give a fair representation). < 1266964249 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, urg-ent indeed < 1266964278 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, you want to make it so that the most relevant/likely files are the smallest numbers and the least are the biggest. < 1266964305 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also have an urge to deprecate =. < 1266964333 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or make it useful by being C system() or something always < 1266964435 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := and t sound like they should go into fingerprints. < 1266964484 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the file I/O stuff too, I reckon < 1266964500 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, I could go for that. < 1266964540 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266964564 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, maybe fingerprints should be able to redefine a wider set of instructions, maybe all instructions except ")". That would let = and t stay the same. A compatibility-oriented implementation could "pre-load" the fingerprints for those,. < 1266964586 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, all the stuff for which y needs to be asked to know whether it's implemented < 1266964604 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's opening the door to all kinds of abuse ;-) < 1266964625 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: More abuse than now? < 1266964633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say so, yes < 1266964651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, could you redefine space (" ") in a fingerprint? < 1266964652 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe, and I didn't say I wasn't against it... < 1266964668 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, " " and ";" are special. < 1266964686 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They aren't instructions, therefore can't be redefined. < 1266964698 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe ";" can. < 1266964698 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agreed < 1266964702 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not ";" :-P < 1266964720 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1266964723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're both markers and work completely differently < 1266964738 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example! 1k;;;;1 will execute the 1 < 1266964753 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh god, combining k and ; < 1266964763 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1266964764 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same for 1k 1, of course < 1266964791 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway, messing with those is a bad idea < 1266964820 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I agree. < 1266964873 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, I don't like the idea of being able to redefine such basic things as #, $, 0-9, etc < 1266964900 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I like it in one sense, but I agree that it's probably too large a departure. < 1266964927 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, I'd like to see t, i, o, = et al move to a fingerprint. < 1266964930 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see the appeal, < 1266964946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think there's much of a use case except for malware :-P < 1266964954 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Malfunge?) < 1266964982 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It feeds the "nightmare to compile" goal somewhat. < 1266965020 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As does mapping the stack to funge-space. But neither has ever had a lot of support. < 1266965044 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So maybe they're just not "Befunge-y". And that should trump the other goal. < 1266965045 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? You mean the stack overlays a location in funge-space? < 1266965065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that was one proposal. Pushing something onto the stack actually p's it somewhere. < 1266965080 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That, too, could be a fingerprint, though. < 1266965089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stick it in MODE :-P < 1266965104 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, with extremely feral fingerprints, the sky's the limit anyway < 1266965121 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1266965150 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When it comes to "hard to compile", I don't think there's any advantage to either of the things you mentioned < 1266965182 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether it's just 'A' or all of 0-126 that are modifiable by ( doesn't really matter, the implementation is essentially the same < 1266965205 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And making the stack commands just work on funge-space is actually a simplification since you don't need to implement a stack :-P < 1266965296 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, from the point of view of a compiler writer... if the stack is mapped to an arbitrary point in funge-space, I can no longer just use the machine stack, and I can no longer do simple optimizations < 1266965344 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Optimizations it does inhibit, true < 1266965418 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't use the machine stack anyway, the spec doesn't indicate that you're ever allowed to fail on simple operations like 0-9 ;-) < 1266965488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And the machine stack would run into limits pretty fast, I think) < 1266965500 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the spec doesn't define arithmetic overflow either though. < 1266965532 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Funge-98, stack and Funge-Space cells alike should be treated as signed integers of the same size." < 1266965540 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't define what should happen, true < 1266965551 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it at least implicitly acknowledges that the size is limited < 1266965569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It assumes it :) < 1266965605 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point is that it allows for it, at least :-P < 1266965621 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whether as the only option or not is a different question ;-) < 1266965643 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1266966020 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jitfunge uses a sort of a machine-assisted stack: the stack memory is surrounded by no-access memory pages, and the "pop 0 from empty stack" is handled by catching the sigsegv, manipulating the saved context (to make the registers look like it would have read a 0 out) and then resuming execution from the next instruction. < 1266966054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it still lives in the heap, no? < 1266966095 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a separately mmap'd area, so.. I guess it depends on your definition of the heap. Certainly it's not the C heap. < 1266966130 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not in the "real" stack; it's just that there's nothing really magical about that stack either. < 1266966222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could argue that it's not the machine stack because I don't use esp/rsp to point at it, nor do I use the push/pop instructions to access it. < 1266966252 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1266966268 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it possible to implement liberal 2D flow controll and expression nesting without allowing for paradoxes? < 1266966616 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :control* < 1266966680 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends - what's a paradox? < 1266966746 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266966777 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1266966784 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1266966928 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an expression nested with others with tests such that you continually reformed the initial test before ever completing interpreting the expression < 1266966931 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266966937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1266966947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, urg = urgent < 1266966950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to nosebleed < 1266966954 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a self modifying language in an infinite loop < 1266966974 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266966997 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: Sounds like Feather, or Chronofunge / TRDS -- you search for a "fixed point" where all your definitions work out, but there might not be such a point < 1266967013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Or make it useful by being C system() or something always <-- often impossible to implement < 1266967015 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the problem < 1266967017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Chronofunge?! < 1266967027 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you always have to allow for the possibility of a paradox (infinite loop while looking for a stable state) < 1266967062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Chronofunge was the idea I had to add time-travel to Befunge < 1266967077 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't know if TRDS was influenced by it < 1266967089 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zybourne time travel or traditional time travel? < 1266967120 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea. < 1266967126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It feeds the "nightmare to compile" goal somewhat. <-- JIT compiling works just fine < 1266967126 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266967156 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: JIT compiling doesn't really count. < 1266967188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : And making the stack commands just work on funge-space is actually a simplification since you don't need to implement a stack :-P <-- funge space is quite a bit slower due to the sparse-ness < 1266967225 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zybourne time travel is the idea that time travel towards to passt just modified history as it was, and while the particular initial point of when you initiated traveling back in time once existed in time, it doesn't any more. < 1266967230 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :past&* < 1266967232 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Speed was not the issue < 1266967233 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :past* < 1266967235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "In Funge-98, stack and Funge-Space cells alike should be treated as signed integers of the same size." <-- so the stack is a single signed integer? < 1266967248 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: (stack and Funge-Space) cells < 1266967270 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not: stack and (Funge-Space cells) < 1266967320 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The latter would require a "the" to be valid anyway < 1266967331 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :traditional time travel is time travel that insists that causalty must remain intact, so going to the past would be virtually impossible without causing a paradox. < 1266967367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: (stack and Funge-Space) cells <-- I know < 1266967374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just joking < 1266967387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your joke failed because your parse is not valid < 1266967390 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266967395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, meh < 1266967409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: TRDS is Zybourne, then < 1266967424 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1266967465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, with zybourne "[...] the particular initial point of when you initiated traveling back in time once existed in time" is problematic < 1266967471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "once existed" mean here < 1266967486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once upon a time < 1266967489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it implies a beore < 1266967490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before* < 1266967495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but along what time axis? < 1266967498 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266967508 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"once existed" is illogical < 1266967515 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the only expression I could come up with < 1266967528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the issue indeed I had with it < 1266967533 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1266967544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, night → < 1266967560 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't exist in time, but the cause is something that doesn't exist because of its effect. < 1266967563 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night. < 1266967568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would suggest a certain book by dr. dan streetmentioner < 1266967604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Which willo-onhaven been written, I presume? < 1266967616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably < 1266967734 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266968214 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1266968924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266969024 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266969708 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1266969731 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266969944 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266970479 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266970960 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1266971999 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1266974651 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266974728 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok guys, i have a crazy brilliant idea or something < 1266974742 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a type of machine code which uses something like LZW compression < 1266974772 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that it's really really compact < 1266974975 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How to handle jumps? < 1266975091 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decompression is done JIT < 1266975163 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1266975248 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION inserts funny comment about x86 already working like that < 1266975372 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266975374 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1266975385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi adu < 1266975397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely recalls you from before < 1266975400 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how goes? < 1266975412 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i was here 2 months ago, and 6 months before that < 1266975434 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been doing naughty things < 1266975441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quiet at the time, lots of befunge discussion earlier today < 1266975448 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1266975457 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION <3 <3 Funge-98 < 1266975502 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i honestly don't know why people still make new VMs, Funge-98 is the most universal extensible VM out there < 1266975510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey (the inventor) has recently started coming here again < 1266975515 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1266975640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right gm|lap just said something about compressed machine code < 1266975652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not entirely quiet < 1266975667 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like machine code < 1266975749 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you heard of VSM? < 1266975806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1266975816 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_System_Model < 1266975866 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been considering making a VM for it, although the name VSM-VM might be confusing... < 1266975939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1266977417 0 :songhead95!~songhead9@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266977429 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello World! < 1266977449 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not the world! < 1266977506 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! < 1266977560 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone seen the language I posted? < 1266977564 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTFZOMFG < 1266977679 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1266977749 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Java user signed off < 1266977758 0 :songhead95!~songhead9@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266977764 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay < 1266977771 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266977781 0 :songhead95!~songhead9@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266977790 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1266977841 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious. < 1266978107 0 :songhead95!~guest@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266978124 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, my IRC crashed < 1266978135 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*irc client < 1266978147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/kill songhead95 goodbye, my client didn't < 1266978165 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? < 1266978212 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see what you did there < 1266978263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Looks to me like an IRC noob. < 1266978271 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes sorry. < 1266978275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello there, and welcome to Internet Relay Chat. < 1266978298 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1266978462 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so yes I am a noob < 1266978514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ようこそう、ね。 < 1266978600 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :私は歓迎するが、感じがわからない日本語 < 1266978628 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1266978634 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I use google translate < 1266978656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheheh. < 1266978666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, figured. < 1266978690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's some exceptionally weird grammar there. < 1266978719 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhmm sometimes I translate something in google translate to like 6 languages, then get it back to english < 1266978749 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eventually "What is a man? A dirty pile of lies!" turns into "How many? A pile dirty secret!? < 1266978931 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... could google translate be turing-complete? Looks like a job for esolangs! < 1266978962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1266978998 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry if I make stupid jokes. I am a noob to chat alltogether < 1266979007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is okay. < 1266979018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of us were noobs at some point. < 1266979031 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And stupid jokes are almost a pastime on IRC. < 1266979038 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously, have you read bash.org?) < 1266979093 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lol I haven't before but that is really funny! < 1266979206 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go learn the ways of the chat, and then come back when I am a master. bye :) < 1266979211 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1266979216 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1266979221 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1266979229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think he realises the way to do that is be in chat. < 1266979261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people _do_ try to read the manual first < 1266979306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: There's a manual? < 1266979315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure wasn't when I IRC'd. < 1266979341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume that would be bash.org. i haven't read it myself. < 1266979359 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The IRC RFC :P < 1266979362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION whistles half-innocently < 1266979376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i almost read that < 1266979393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ah, that. < 1266979406 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: bash.org is a major IRC quote server. < 1266979446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may have had a slight suspicion of that fact. < 1266979518 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are never any new quotes in the top 100 < 1266979519 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1266979535 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qdb.us is a modicum better than bash.org < 1266979562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More actively maintained, at least. < 1266979942 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. Until now, I thought Ocarina was a made up .. word thingy for some game < 1266979950 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1266979955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Genuine musical instrument. < 1266979968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not invented for the game either, according to wiki < 1266979975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1266980016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :octarine is made up, however. < 1266980070 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shouldn't have had to Google that < 1266980073 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's been a while < 1266980117 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1266980340 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266980362 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266980370 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION blames http://qdb.us/140717 < 1266980521 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266980705 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266980722 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266981431 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"THE COMMUNISTS HAVE CONTROL OF GRAND CENTRAL STATION AND THEY WILL BRING THE COMMIE TRAINS TO TOWN! WE MUST WARN THE MAYOR CHOO CHOO" < 1266981995 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1266982064 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1266982297 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://shii.org/knows/Zybourne_Clock < 1266982313 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine four balls on the edge of a cliff. Say a direct copy of the ball nearest the cliff is sent to the back of the line of balls and takes the place of the first ball. The formerly first ball becomes the second, the second becomes the third, and the fourth falls off the cliff. Time works the same way. < 1266983170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets confused at 2^O(c^n) < 1266983475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it means that the _logarithm_ is O(c^n) < 1266983555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not the same as O(2^(c^n)) < 1266983558 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is still confuzzled < 1266983575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, 3^(c^n) is the former but not the latter < 1266983621 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is too tired to think right now < 1266983640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because 3^(c^n) = 2^(logBase 2 3 * c^n), so just a constant multiplier after you take the logarithm < 1266983714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while before, it is an extra power - 3^(c^n) = (2^(c^n))^(logBase 2 3) < 1266983772 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't even looking right now < 1266983828 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://asset.soup.io/asset/0453/8747_0991_800.png < 1266984167 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood is on qdb.us! < 1266984258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking! < 1266984265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where?) < 1266984333 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qdb.us/71165 < 1266984466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :word of god, that < 1266984614 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1266984915 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got spam mail in base 64. < 1266985148 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266985369 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: more than once < 1266985682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yeah, most IRC denizens are. < 1266985698 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks for himself < 1266985709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1266985741 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in 2 quotes (and a third that wasn't actually me) < 1266985748 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All 3 are apparently sucking < 1266985757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qdb.us/264456 This one's a better quote, anyways. < 1266985758 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one non-me is the only one that's not negative < 1266985773 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qdb.us/search?q=Sgeo&order=real_score&sort=desc&limit=25&approved=-1 < 1266985941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qdb.us/301257 Freaking zzo38. < 1266985963 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1266986015 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait i searched for myself and got no results, but there i am? < 1266986056 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mindboggles at zzo's choice of client < 1266986222 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck even i couldn't vote for that mess, and i seem to be the joke maker < 1266986290 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm on 0 < 1266986303 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even on bash < 1266986498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1266987500 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1266987683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1266987797 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1266989402 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1266990689 0 :EvanDonovan!~chatzilla@pool-71-174-177-130.bstnma.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266990891 0 :EvanDonovan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202152834] < 1266994155 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1266994275 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1266995055 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1266995226 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1266996248 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1266997858 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266997953 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1266998399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1266998400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267000130 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267002641 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1267003078 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267003219 0 :amca_!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1267003444 0 :amca_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :amca < 1267003705 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267006087 0 :chickenzilla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267008179 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267012193 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267013622 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolang: Each cell in field can hold 32-bit number, and there are 32-bit registers R0 and R1. IP travels on the field and if cell it lands on contains valid instruction, it executes it... < 1267013644 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instructions: Unconditional turn to cardinal direction, and the same on condition that R0 != 0. < 1267013671 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Rotate R0 left by 1 place. NAND R0 and R1 and store to R0... < 1267013699 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And instructions to store/load R0/R1 from one of cardinally adjacent to IP cells. < 1267013732 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus of course print R0 as character, read character to R0 and exit instructions. < 1267015407 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: booork < 1267015916 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267015978 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267016312 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267017430 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust752.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267018481 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want to tell OKLOPORK < 1267018482 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRRR < 1267019044 0 :LemmingLemming!~v@81-20-159-197.levira.ee JOIN :#esoteric < 1267019100 0 :LemmingLemming!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267019373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1267020225 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267022601 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267022632 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, uni friend wrote this interpreter thingie in clue, reading the language is like solving a fucking puzzle :P < 1267022657 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i guess that's sort of obvious) < 1267023310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, which language? < 1267023321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clue? < 1267023326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, self-interpreter? < 1267023442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? That doesn't seems plausible for http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue < 1267023663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other clue < 1267023663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no not self-interpreter, just an interp for some random language < 1267023663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(actually the language called random, pun not intended) < 1267023683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267023701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267023713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, is either of those on the wiki? < 1267023728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Random ? < 1267023731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, that one? < 1267023743 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't put any sort of comparison in the language, so he added another function for that for speedness; i just knew it was comparison, but not whether a 1 or a -1; cool thing is with clue, both work < 1267023754 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's the language he made the interp for < 1267023758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in clue < 1267023760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, and in which clue? < 1267023766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it wasn't the one on the wiki < 1267023773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, spec for the other clue < 1267023775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clue is not on the wiki yet, but it will be once i find the time to make a small spec. < 1267023787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, or do you mean the game Clue? < 1267023794 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it seems you can just pick up the language from the ski interp < 1267023808 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, my language clue i've been talking about for like years < 1267023814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267023816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267023831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, maybe another name to not collide with the existing language clue? < 1267023848 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267023852 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. i had the name first 2. why not collide? < 1267023863 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3. for my language, the name makes sense < 1267023872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw I think I worked out how to do *W butterfly for bignum in a sensible way < 1267023999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, basically, you use the smallest fixnum that could fit it, rounded up to 32*(2^n) where n is a positive integer. < 1267024020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, positive or 0 < 1267024054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, of course the results in most fixnum interpreters will vary depending on if they use 32-bit or 64-bit cells < 1267024059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the operation is pretty useless for those < 1267024062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-portable < 1267024083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other cell sizes would cause similar problems of course) < 1267024219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, this is actually so cool, you can, to some extent, just change whatever conventions you wish in the stdlib, and chances are programs will still work < 1267024230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, in what language? < 1267024245 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, you can permute any function's parameter list in absolutely any way, and it's guaranteed no function can break < 1267024249 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: okay what the fuck < 1267024264 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have not, do not, and will not, ever, talk about any language other than clue < 1267024290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, oh? what about oklotalk? < 1267024295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you talked about some time ago < 1267024299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lots of other languages < 1267024325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or did you mean "today"? < 1267024334 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well so's your face < 1267024334 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can permute parameters! < 1267024365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, how do you ensure this property? Named parameters? < 1267024379 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can't actually call a function in clue < 1267024396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that helps < 1267024407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then bf have the same property! < 1267024436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't even *have* functions so every property of the functions that don't conflict with not having functions is true there! < 1267024462 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you consider the bf instructions the functions, then clearly you can call them, if you consider only functions functions, then yes, bf has the same property, it's just en empty property because there are no functions. < 1267024467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267024494 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think the property is more interesting when it actually means something < 1267024651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, then how do you use the functions in question in clue? < 1267024654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can < 1267024665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't* call the functions it *seems* to be a fairly useless property < 1267024727 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you see the paradigm is you give examples of computation, and you give functions the compiler can use < 1267024728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you do something tricky that actually makes it possible to somehow pass parameters to a function and cause it to execute sometime during the program run < 1267024732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it finds an implementation < 1267024752 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can not in any way rely on specifics like the order of parameters < 1267024776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, does it error out if there is more than one possible function matching it? < 1267024799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there would always be unless you define all possible combinations of parameters < 1267024802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as examples < 1267024807 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it returns the first one it finds < 1267024814 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not specified which one < 1267024835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you mean by that combination thing < 1267024843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, so does it interpolate the values between the examples? < 1267024856 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean? < 1267024874 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just brute-forces definitions until it finds one that fits. < 1267024899 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least it's not required to do anything more intelligent < 1267024930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, like say: sin(0)->0; sin(pi/4)->1/sqrt(2) sin(pi/2)->1 < 1267024943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it takes an average if given pi/6 or such < 1267024948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can study my ski interp if you want to learn more. < 1267024959 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267024959 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that would be silly < 1267024965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, hm, nah you could give an example of what you mean < 1267024972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, weighted average of course < 1267025005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, if a random uni dude could reverse-engineer the language in a few hours, i'm not even sure i'm ever gonna make a spec :) < 1267025039 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can show you the append function maybe < 1267025050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, "a random" <-- insert joke along the lines if he designed that language < 1267025060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that should be interesting < 1267025062 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :append ~ ; car; cdr; cons < 1267025079 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :means "append uses the functions car, cdr and cons, and its condition function is 'empty'" < 1267025088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1267025109 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :append ~ {. [], [1, 2, 3] -> [1, 2, 3] . [], [4] -> [4] } < 1267025113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two examples of the base case < 1267025118 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(separated by .) < 1267025128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267025142 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :append ~ {:. [1,2,3],[4,5,6] -> [1,2,3,4,5,6] : [2,3],[4,5,6] -> [2,3,4,5,6] } < 1267025161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example of recursive case, with :. being the call, : being the subcall < 1267025165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267025178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it basically < 1267025187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, are there just those in the code or are there more examples you didn't paste here? < 1267025207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the whole append, you can write a shorter one ofc < 1267025223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, how do you call it or whatever later < 1267025223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1267025235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example of how it is used < 1267025253 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well say you want a function that appends lists together < 1267025262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you have that there don't you? < 1267025272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you might have multiappend ~ ; append; ... < 1267025279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1267025280 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sorry < 1267025288 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean an arbitrary amount of lists < 1267025300 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]] -> [1,2,3,4,5,6] < 1267025302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :concat < 1267025305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I mean example of how you cause two specific lists to be appended < 1267025309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to each other < 1267025316 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do that < 1267025324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, what about from user input then? < 1267025327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1267025335 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could write a function that appends two lists and returns the result < 1267025347 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i haven't decided yet, probably there's a main function that takes user input as a list < 1267025352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, fine. What would it look like if it was supposed to use that function "append" < 1267025409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, basically: lets say I somehow want to use your append function above to make the language calculate what appending [9,-3,4] to the end of [27,22,3] is < 1267025426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, getting the result [27,22,3,9,-3,4] < 1267025443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, using your above append function of course :) < 1267025448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I'm wondering about < 1267025472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think this should work < 1267025472 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiappend ~ {. [] -> [] } < 1267025475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiappend ~ {:. [[1,2], [3,4]] -> [1,2,3,4] : [[3,4]] -> [3,4] < 1267025475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::. [[],[1],[]] -> [1] : [[1],[]] -> [1]} < 1267025475 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiappend ~ ; append; cons; car; cdr < 1267025513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes, and where do the data I provided go into that? :) < 1267025516 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you'd call the compiled function append, prolly < 1267025533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, eh? < 1267025538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can put data into the functions by calling the python functions the compiler returns. < 1267025543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267025545 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's really a non-issue. < 1267025604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, so it would work for that example above? It would be able to figure it out? Even using lists of different lengths too? Like appending to [27,22,3,472,283,172,3872] instead of that one above? < 1267025620 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that should work for all lists of lists. < 1267025627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can test it ofc < 1267025648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, err the original append function you gave doesn't take a list of list does it? < 1267025653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes two lists it seems < 1267025662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm confused < 1267025678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, also how does the parameter order to it not matter, that I'm interested in too < 1267025755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[1,2,3],[2,3],[3]] --> [1, 2, 3, 2, 3, 3] < 1267025759 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to works < 1267025761 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*work < 1267025778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had one error, the function that tests if a list is empty is called "empty", not "empty?" < 1267025794 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well consider cons < 1267025810 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just give cons as a helper function, "you can use this function in any way, if you find it necessary" < 1267025814 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you swap the args to cons < 1267025815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267025824 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the compiler will just use it, but swap the arguments. < 1267025836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267025853 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, in some cases it might find some other function first, because swapping the args made it harder for it to find the correct implementation < 1267025877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I mean, append([4,5,6],[1,2,3]) seems like it should give a different result than append([1,2,3],[4,5,6]) < 1267025878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but sofar no function has bee incorrectly implemented, all errors have been mine < 1267025893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually i don't think i've made any errors < 1267025900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well sure < 1267025923 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but see < 1267025926 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i had append in a program < 1267025930 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i reversed its arguments < 1267025940 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then all functions that use append would just be compiled with the new order of arguments < 1267025947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267025956 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise they would be wrong, so the compiler would have to reverse them. < 1267025964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah hm < 1267025983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, I guess compiling can take quite a bit? < 1267025993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for fairly simple functions < 1267025994 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.13 seconds to compile the multiappend thing < 1267026000 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 seconds to compile my ski interpreter < 1267026006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 second to compile the random interpreter < 1267026009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267026018 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, a fuckload of time for even simple tasks < 1267026034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's just a crappy python hack < 1267026037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interp < 1267026042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes considered how long it would take for most compilers < 1267026055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly you might beat g++ but that is all ;) < 1267026072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, is the source code for the interpreter online? < 1267026076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267026082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interpreter/compiler I guess < 1267026088 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maaaybe i could put it up < 1267026119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, you should probably wait until you wrote a rough spec so you don't get everyone asking you to explain how it works ;) < 1267026313 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll put the ski interp online too, you can just read that < 1267026322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for teh idiomatic clueness < 1267026346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well, I suck at ski.. < 1267026363 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i just more than doubled all compilation times by adding a tiny fix :) < 1267026393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, always keep falling when skiing downhill. I'm reasonably okay at it on mostly flat ground < 1267026405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it can call a function with many copies of the same objec < 1267026405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1267026405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flat is nicer < 1267026412 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also called cross-country < 1267026416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yep < 1267026425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't fall all the time there < 1267026451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm scared of heights, which doesn't really help avoiding falling when going downhill < 1267026483 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, many of the helper functions i wrote are pretty basic and not ski-specific < 1267026483 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you fall? < 1267026484 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :move your legs man < 1267026506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, err? I said when going downhill < 1267026509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not when cross country < 1267026521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still < 1267026550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still what? < 1267026603 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267026694 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267026698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi scarf < 1267026774 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267027128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: do you open rar? < 1267027171 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar < 1267027186 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll make a spec and put it on esolang during march, hopefully < 1267027298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm assuming there won't be a massive surge of programs making that a de facto standard or anything. < 1267027375 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi everyone < 1267027389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLUE INTERPRETER NOW ONLINE SOURCE SORT OF OPEN TOO. < 1267027397 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link < 1267027407 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar < 1267027435 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ooh < 1267027441 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i mentioned, someone reverse-engineered the ski-interp and wrote a random interp, so i'm assuming anyone who wants to play can just do that as well. < 1267027461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random, again, being the language random on esolang < 1267027503 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parser is not very good, it works pretty well as long as you don't make any errors, but doesn't really help you locate them. < 1267027520 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow at that SKI < 1267027550 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there anything significant at all in the identifier names? or are they just compared for equality? < 1267027575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just compared for equality < 1267027599 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and are presumably builtins? < 1267027604 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might make identifier name matching fuzzy, because i typo them a lot and forget whether i had a "?" in the end, and they are always pretty long. < 1267027607 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267027615 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff.py contains a list of builtins < 1267027616 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cons/car/cdr are library functions? < 1267027630 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are just builtins < 1267027635 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1267027636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are builtins too < 1267027640 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do some have angle brackets, and others not? < 1267027650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what doesn't have angle brackets? < 1267027656 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons, car, cdr < 1267027658 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1267027660 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas and do < 1267027661 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well see < 1267027669 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function needs a "cond", which is < 1267027674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just have multiple helper lists < 1267027691 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, angle brackets mean that that function's a good one to try as a condition < 1267027711 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We need to invent branfuck < 1267027712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, and in fact it is what *will be* used as a condition < 1267027712 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/b5v3v/yo_just_print_like_hello_world_bro/c0l4545 < 1267027719 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's something you could actually drop from the language < 1267027719 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I have to figure out how more-than-3 works < 1267027725 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well "more than 3" < 1267027728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy who made the random interp just used there < 1267027732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all functions < 1267027773 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, #0 and #1 refer to particular sorts of recursion? < 1267027780 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, they are constants :) < 1267027787 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, just like in INTERCAL < 1267027800 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen something which has so much INTERCAL inspiration in the syntax and yet looks so different < 1267027807 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267027826 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty different from everything, afaik. < 1267027838 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, if more than 3 is supposed to work on arbitrary integers, I don't have a clue how it works < 1267027846 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's only meant to work on 0..5, it's obvious < 1267027847 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well probably just on naturals < 1267027854 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, ok < 1267027864 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well see < 1267027865 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than 3 ~ {. 4 -> 1 < 1267027865 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. 5 -> 1 } < 1267027871 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this means 4 and 5 return 1 < 1267027877 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they have to return 1 using the same rule < 1267027881 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha, "if it's 0, 1, 2, or 3, return 0, otherwise return 1" is the function you're trying to produce < 1267027893 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I get it < 1267027893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means it will have to make that the "default branch" and make it return the constant 1 < 1267027906 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can only test for one value in each conditional < 1267027914 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there can be one default branch < 1267027916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267027946 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically it combines parameters somehow, and puts the result in the function, result is used to differentiate between branches, the {...} things < 1267027986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only one of them contains multiple values, then that'll be the default branch < 1267028014 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if there are multiple examples in some branch, they all have to return the same result with cond, except for the default branch < 1267028020 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if there's one) < 1267028041 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I keep using the wrong mouse button < 1267028058 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the left mouse button on this mouse has broken (it's ignoring about 2/3 of the clicks I use), so I swapped the buttons < 1267028082 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, I keep trying to use the right mouse button to right-click, although I'm getting good for using it to left-click < 1267028094 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just ask a 4-dimensional dude to swap your left and right? < 1267028131 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i c, i c < 1267028153 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw tell me if you touch clue, i actually like reading programs in it < 1267028165 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably the first language ever with that property ;) < 1267028222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should probably add comments to the language... < 1267028248 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you could say "the following is a comment ~ ..." < 1267028262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait that won't work < 1267028263 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theory: Google bought Youtube /just/ for leverage in getting rid of IE6 < 1267028278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to go for a bit -> < 1267028282 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: use the comment as an identifier name < 1267028285 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and give it a trivial definition < 1267028311 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like this is a comment, isn't this program great? ~ { . 0 -> 0 } < 1267028318 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you'd need to repeat it again on the next line < 1267028337 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it should be possible to put nothing before a ~ in order to effectively get a repeat of the previous identifier < 1267028441 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267028737 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That sounds as reasonable as anything, given that butterfly seems inherently a fixed-size operation. < 1267028775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm < 1267028817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well anyway www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar <-- downloaded < 1267028818 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually the name of an identifier can contain arbitrarily many \n's < 1267028837 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whitespaces are just stripped into " "'s < 1267028852 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "\n \t\n\n \n" -> " " < 1267028870 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah the repetition thing would be nice < 1267028892 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parser isn't very complete < 1267028938 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the standards for parsers in the realm of esolang implementation are... pretty low, so i wouldn't worry about it. (I saw ALPACA's parser again the other day. Eeesh.) < 1267028961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about the one of ick? < 1267028979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looked pretty okay considering the language it is supposed to parse iirc < 1267028994 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is this is so simple to parse you can do it as crappily as you want, and i wanted to watch scrubs while is coded, so... < 1267029002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is that hack because you need infinite lookahead for some construct in intercal < 1267029004 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i coded < 1267029024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than that it is just fairly complex lex and yacc iirc < 1267029046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, right? < 1267029051 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep, the lex and yacc are tied into each other, although not quite as much as in gcc < 1267029068 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: so did you master the language already? :) < 1267029072 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not yet < 1267029082 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have work to do, even though I'm on a non-work connection < 1267029089 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yarr < 1267029090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well... doesn't the yacc part depend on what output exactly the lex part produces in all cases? < 1267029102 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but also vice versa < 1267029104 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132132.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267029119 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just what other people do is always more interesting than the things i do myself, when it comes to my languages < 1267029121 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is mentioned as being necessary sometimes in the lex/yacc documentation, but which seems silly to anyone who knows about parsers < 1267029130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well you could say that also exists, because if you change the lex part without changing the yacc part the whole thing might break < 1267029148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you meant in some other way? < 1267029184 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean, the actual tokens produced depend on the current state of the parser < 1267029195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, non-work connection? Public wlan? Finally have internet at home? < 1267029204 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a friend's house < 1267029205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yeargh < 1267029216 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been connecting from here for ages, just most people weren't paying attention < 1267029231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that means it is context dependant in some rather strange way doesn't it? < 1267029235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1267029240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you have a cloak though < 1267029242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could I know? < 1267029250 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be precise, whether a paren-equivalent is opening or closing is context-dependant < 1267029257 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was doing this from well before I was cloaked < 1267029278 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267029281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, the reverse dns with something like bham in one part of it? < 1267029285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was uni < 1267029288 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is uni < 1267029298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :burning ham < 1267029299 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other one's virgin media < 1267029308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember that one < 1267029324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1267029361 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes back to the Phorm website < 1267029372 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm effectively polling it by hand to see if and when they decide to turn it on for virgin media < 1267029383 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll be a distaster, but not one that people notice right away < 1267029387 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*disaster < 1267029429 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need to add io to clue so i can make an irc bot < 1267029520 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably just something like >> after the output of a function to also output bytes or << after the input of a function to read bytes < 1267029575 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello world! ~ {. 0 -> 0 >> [72, 101, 108, 108, 111, 44, 32, 119, 111, 114, 108, 100, 33] } < 1267029622 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, makes sense < 1267029639 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would you need to explicitly specify >> [] for other cases if you specify >> anywhere, or would that be assumed? < 1267029733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh err < 1267029735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assumed < 1267029743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what is Phorm? < 1267029768 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically, it's a targeted advertising service < 1267029774 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the controversial bit is the amazing way it operates < 1267029783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh injection thingy < 1267029784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267029785 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which basically involves multiple redirects for every single http request you make ever < 1267029806 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and MITMing every website on the internet to inject cookies < 1267029812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that sounds like it shouldn't be legal for various reasons. < 1267029815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it doesn't trigger on https, if you were wondering) < 1267029823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yep, some people think it isn't < 1267029824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Net neutrality comes to mind amongst other things < 1267029834 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they haven't actually dared turn the thing on yet; there's meant to be an opt-out < 1267029851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, so I assume it will be taken to court as soon as it is turned on < 1267029866 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, someone will probably try < 1267029872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"try"? < 1267029878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, more interesting: echo n ~ {:. 5 <<[7] -> _ >>[7] : 4 -> _ } < 1267029900 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they might not be able to get the funding < 1267029904 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course, echo n ~ {. 0 -> _ } < 1267029925 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the underscore mean again? < 1267029932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that's new < 1267029948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just thought it might be nice to be able to say the return value doesn't matter < 1267029952 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once you have IO < 1267029964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, funding? How so? After all you don't need funding in case the police catch a thief that stole something from you. < 1267029964 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, it's a RealWorld < 1267029974 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hmm, you mean a criminal rather than civil case? < 1267029984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah right forgot that difference < 1267029984 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd need to persuade the Crown Prosecution Service to take it < 1267029998 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: actually it's just the empty list, except you don't have to put an explicit #[] in the helper list < 1267030006 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1267030143 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm okay i have sort of a problem < 1267030162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if <<[5,6] is an example, "if you get bytes 5 and 6 as input, ..." < 1267030162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1267030167 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many should it read? < 1267030204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always two bytes, always till eof, always two, unless there are other examples with different lengths, in which case till eof? < 1267030222 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(two in the case of an example of length 2) < 1267030238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well in any case maybe IO isn't the first thing i should add < 1267030246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, is that for stdin? < 1267030253 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i would definitely like to see pong in this. < 1267030258 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be so outta character < 1267030263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: IO < 1267030266 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267030268 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah << is input < 1267030274 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267030297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, line buffered is probably sanest for an esolang < 1267030304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I guess whole line makes most sense < 1267030307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... i hate line buffered :-( < 1267030328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well then, I can't work out sane semantics for it < 1267030688 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta go -> < 1267030892 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something's up with Yahoo mail, it seems < 1267030910 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't access the site at all in Firefox (I just get errors), and w3m goes into an infinite META REFRESH loop after logging in < 1267030939 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the page has a META REFRESH with a timeout of 0 on, and w3m is honouring it for some reason < 1267031072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. < 1267031127 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to be a problem with the connection itself (tried a different computer on the same router) < 1267031128 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267031130 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the DNS is fine < 1267031160 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, working again now < 1267031162 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was suspicious < 1267031454 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I just typed my root password in another channel by mistake < 1267031459 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sudo-root < 1267031564 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267031620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, so change the password now < 1267031626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am, don't worry < 1267031643 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I changed it even before I typed it, somehow < 1267031652 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I typed the old password in-channel rather than the new one < 1267031716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267031809 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one place left to change it; do you know how to change the master password for the KDE password wallet? < 1267031823 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I care too much, because there's only one password /in/ that wallet and it's a publically-available one anyway < 1267031839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a publically-available password? < 1267031840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267031858 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in this case, as an anti-spam measure < 1267031864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267031872 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the password and the place you have to enter it are in two completely separate places < 1267031884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what is it for? < 1267031894 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guarding a file-upload server < 1267031900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267031906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public one? < 1267031936 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of; public, but very specific purpose < 1267031942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1267031951 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for uploading Enigma levels < 1267031964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267032039 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1267032057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that enigma game < 1267032108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :miss piggeh < 1267032153 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up hi augur < 1267032177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267032192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatd i do D: < 1267032203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting. SVG defines colours like "mediumspringgreen" < 1267032204 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: when the next version comes out, you'll find many levels by me < 1267032211 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf oh cool! what sort of levels? < 1267032225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that one is rgb( 0, 250, 154) ) < 1267032225 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly intelligence levels (as in, traditional puzzle-style) < 1267032228 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess there's a turing machine in enigma now..... < 1267032231 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are all sorts < 1267032231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/types.html#ColorKeywords < 1267032235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a massive list < 1267032236 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no, I didn't add a turing machine < 1267032240 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf well that's exciting! when does it come out? < 1267032247 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no release date yet, but they're getting closer < 1267032258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T_T < 1267032262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs away crying < 1267032266 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're in a string freeze for internationalisation at the moment < 1267032278 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they're like a typical open source project, that's getting near a release < 1267032301 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, it's a rather less strict sort of string freeze than typically, though < 1267032303 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Darn, I missed that; I just read the bit about having to support the CSS names < 1267032324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I don't know if it supports those embedded in css in the svg < 1267032330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or just in the svg directly < 1267032383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The format of an RGB value in hexadecimal notation is a '#' immediately followed by either three or six hexadecimal characters. The three-digit RGB notation (#rgb) is converted into six-digit form (#rrggbb) by replicating digits, not by adding zeros. For example, #fb0 expands to #ffbb00. This ensures that white (#ffffff) can be specified with the short notation (#fff) and removes any dependencies on < 1267032383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the color depth of the display." < 1267032384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267032396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"removes any dependencies on the color depth of the display"? < 1267032396 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably in the SVG directly only < 1267032402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that mean exactly < 1267032402 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267032403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how < 1267032448 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the term "string freeze" for some reason. Sounds like it should be a kind of candy. < 1267032449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, CSS3 seems to have these extra ones < 1267032456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is still a draft iirc < 1267032458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/ < 1267032464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also it says draft there < 1267032495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so yeah you can't use those portably yet in CSS < 1267032513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267032571 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has homework he needs to do NOW < 1267032576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, go do it then < 1267032578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1267032609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway most of those named colours would expand rather than save space < 1267032645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snow #fffafa < 1267032648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err sure... < 1267032670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snow varies widely and is in sunshine definitely extremely white < 1267032674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more white than that < 1267032698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that was interesting < 1267032704 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Homework time < 1267032718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the text I actually selected and copied was: "snow #FFFAFA" < 1267032727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow it was lower cased when pasting < 1267032734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uses firebug on that thing < 1267032750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :table.x11colortable td.c { < 1267032750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text-transform:uppercase; < 1267032750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1267032751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267032760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why < 1267032766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why wasn't it copied that way < 1267033045 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267033046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ^ < 1267033071 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1267033079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of it < 1267033109 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text-transform is just how to display it, of course it should copy the text itself < 1267033147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a firefox bug there < 1267033167 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267033169 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267033214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand I don't know if the spec says it should not be processed when copied < 1267033224 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's not a bug. < 1267033229 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does exactly what I'd expect. < 1267033229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it isn't? < 1267033236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why does it make sense < 1267033236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what I said it should. < 1267033241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to not copy the text transform < 1267033241 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267033264 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's just a style note on how to display it < 1267033269 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not the text < 1267033269 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267033280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267033575 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267033578 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267033589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you know that mycology's TURT test is broken right? < 1267033596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267033596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267033596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267033614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, if it wasn't for svg you couldn't even be sure the circles were there < 1267033618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine it rendered to bmp < 1267033950 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I thought it was white background with two dots < 1267033961 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it's the same bug in CCBI's colour stuff ;-) < 1267033968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well I don't think the error is on my side < 1267033969 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I seem to recall that !Befunge rendered it as such < 1267033983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't have !befunge around to test with < 1267034021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also I seem to recall that when I first implemented TURT in cfunge and found that the ccbi implementation was completely broken, it didn't ever use the bg colour < 1267034028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does nowdays but still... < 1267034062 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it did < 1267034070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, back then? No < 1267034074 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recall one bug being that it didn't "clear paper with colour", it just reset the bg colour < 1267034083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, reset it to what? < 1267034089 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To what was requested < 1267034090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267034092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267034095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just didn't overwrite the dots and paths etc < 1267034148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think efunge currently has the least buggy turtle implementation < 1267034156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that I know of < 1267034262 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow I can not read python at all < 1267034282 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at clue impl. and I am just like HUH?? < 1267034330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, it is somewhat compact python < 1267034335 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267034343 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1267034345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, and uncommonly it uses lambda < 1267034362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for python that isn't quite as common normally as it is in that file < 1267034372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same goes for map < 1267034399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, the key to reading it is realising that indention defines the block < 1267034422 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1267034429 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that much python but that's all < 1267034430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, no {} or comma-vs-period or such < 1267034466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, also python's OOP seems used in there < 1267034470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the implementation lacks abstraction in maaaany places, because most of the thing was coded while watching scrubs < 1267034495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, scrubs? < 1267034505 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267034506 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is a bit scary < 1267034518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in terms of writing code that does miracles while not even looking < 1267034537 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267034571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :miss piggehhh < 1267034727 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267034730 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267035748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there? Would you consider it allowed for FPDP/FPSP instructions to reflect on NaN and +/-inf? < 1267035766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all the spec doesn't define it to use IEEE semantics iirc < 1267035809 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC the spec says something like "A (a b -- n) add fp numbers" < 1267035824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but that doesn't define it to be IEEE floating point < 1267035832 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that was exactly my point < 1267035847 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like all of Mike's, there is practically no spec < 1267035850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also does FPDP require two cells per value? I don't remember < 1267035877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how Mycology will react to reflection on those though < 1267035961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and FPDP spec doesn't say it has to be two cells < 1267036017 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course not, that's just an implementation detail for 32-bit funges < 1267036030 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Who assume "double precision" = "64-bit") < 1267036088 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that it uses the term "double precision" does sort of imply IEEE 754 semantics though, since double is an IEEE 754-1985 term < 1267036400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Alternatively, you could argue that it's supposed to use the platform's "standard" Fortran compiler's floating point formants, since "double" is also a FORTRAN term. < 1267036429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267036435 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D'oh < 1267036507 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a silly name; "double what?" (Double the size of single, of course, but *still*...) < 1267036539 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'd like a double bacon cheeseburger, please, with double interpreted as from IEEE 754-1985" < 1267036545 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267036564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They'll give you a burger with 64 discrete bits of bacon. < 1267036584 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of which one is the sign bacon. < 1267036742 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("\u0082"); < 1267036754 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not compile. < 1267036763 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("\u00c0"); < 1267036766 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :À < 1267036770 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("\u00c8"); < 1267036771 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :È < 1267036777 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("\u00a8"); < 1267036778 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¨ < 1267036787 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: IEEE 754-2008 calls it binary64, which is a bit less silly. < 1267036880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, but on the other hand a "binary64 bacon cheeseburger" is more silly. < 1267036923 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, why does unicodesnowmanforyou.com use javascript? < 1267036926 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to work just as well without < 1267036960 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the scripts there are just google-analytics code. < 1267037281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should encode it as tagged tuple BCD encoded 66 bit floating point (why? because 65 bits would make the single format 32.5 bits, which is quite hard to implement) < 1267037288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt mycology would like that < 1267037318 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why? < 1267037335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, because it would be a DS9K implementation < 1267037337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doh < 1267037403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, or did you mean "why wouldn't mycology like that"? < 1267037420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would not have inf or NaN but would reflect on those to begin with < 1267037442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck technically the spec would allow me to change to any delta for those < 1267037537 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because the spec doesn't say you're not allowed to do something doesn't mean you should do it ;-P < 1267037601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true. Still if I implemented it in efunge it will be as opaque values on stack and reflect on nan/inf < 1267037622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could do something like the "union with integer" trick, sure < 1267037627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think I should < 1267037642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it encourages bad programming practise in programs using FPSP/FPDP < 1267037644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, funny motd from the shell server, when you interpret (like I did) the second part as a consequence of the first: < 1267037644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Matlab Parallel Computing Toolbox has been installed for Matlab R2009b (latest version, run with 'matlab') and runs on any cluster machine or 64-bit Linux workstation. Scanning and sending documents from photocopier in corridor B works now." < 1267037648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like hard coding constants < 1267037652 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;_; < 1267037654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is unreliable < 1267037660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and depend on endianness and various stuff < 1267037666 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1267037686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :D < 1267037751 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I write all my scanning software in matlab. < 1267037880 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine an object balancing a little as possible in four dimensions < 1267037893 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like in 2d you have something halfway off a cliff < 1267037916 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in 3d you have something 1/2 off a corner in both directions < 1267037923 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's on by only 1/4 < 1267037944 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine things balancing on a point < 1267037947 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in 4d you have something 1/6 or 1/8 off an object < 1267037951 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a line, a plane, a cube.... < 1267037960 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267037962 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done that < 1267037979 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, if only 1/4 of the surface area of a book is supported by a table under it... well, that doesn't sound balanced to me... < 1267037983 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made this earlier for someone else: http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5504/lkjsdkf.png < 1267037985 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust752.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267037988 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it is < 1267038000 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267038006 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: If the table is round with a hole in the middle, and the book's edges are all supported by the ring of the table, then it 's perfectly balanced :P < 1267038029 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor: I'm dealing with solid objects < 1267038043 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh great, now tables with holes in them are gaseous. < 1267038056 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant convex < 1267038057 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267038060 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably break from lunch before these unit tests drive me crazy. < 1267038063 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, that puck would not stay on the table, 1/4 supported. < 1267038065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or for lunch, even < 1267038076 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor: it would approach 1/4 < 1267038087 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhh, 1/4 is the tipping point you're saying. < 1267038091 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267038099 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or right behind it < 1267038145 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't imaging that king of interaction on 4D < 1267038148 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine* < 1267038153 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind* < 1267038161 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in* < 1267038173 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I just tried it with a pad of paper, and, yeah, I guess 1/4 is the approachable value for tipping. < 1267038183 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1267038233 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if the approachable value in 4D is 1/6 or 1/8 < 1267038304 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 1/8 < 1267038325 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would think so too < 1267038333 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then the interaction is happening on a 3D surface < 1267038450 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could either be 1/2^surfacedimensions or 1/(dimension-1)^dimension < 1267038456 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1267038470 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dimension < 1267038481 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I assume without testing that those are the same? < 1267039198 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think 1/8 too (1/2^d, where d is number of dimensions in contact surface). < 1267039262 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I meant 1/d*2 - d being the contact surface's scope < 1267039314 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than 1/(dm-2)^dm < 1267040099 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267040409 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267040409 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267040416 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267040816 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267041080 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you talking about? < 1267041095 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tipping point? < 1267041146 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267041163 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh picture was relevant < 1267041178 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267041225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what does "approaches 1/4" mean < 1267041253 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can approach 1/4 before I woudln't know what happens between falling and staying on < 1267041258 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't* < 1267041267 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :approach 1/4 in what sense? < 1267041274 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what approaches 1/4? < 1267041274 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :contact < 1267041284 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the contact area < 1267041285 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surface area of the object? < 1267041291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's in contact with the table < 1267041297 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267041309 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the surface in contact must be 2D < 1267041318 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's because the centre of gravity of the object must go off the table if anything less than 1/4 of the surface area is supported < 1267041329 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267041343 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're assuming an object like a perfectly balanced disk < 1267041344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the surface in contact must be 2d? < 1267041346 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what... < 1267041350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, uniform density < 1267041360 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what if the object is, say, a really large disc, with a relatively small hole in the middle that's still larger than the table, with a thin beam across the middle that lies on the table? < 1267041371 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way, the centre of gravity is over the table even though most of the object isn't < 1267041402 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we assume the table is what shape? < 1267041402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: That object is not uniform density, then, I think < 1267041405 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why have a hold in the middle latger than the table? < 1267041410 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it is, but not convex < 1267041411 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hole* < 1267041420 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: ooh, good point, that isn't needed < 1267041427 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could just have a disc larger than the table < 1267041438 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I suspect that the missing assumption is that the table is infinitely large < 1267041446 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, yes. < 1267041455 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm assuming that the table is larger than the object, actually < 1267041456 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least that the object fits entirely on the table < 1267041459 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love that sort of assumption < 1267041466 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267041483 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of a very specific kind of case; like the plate I have on the corner right here < 1267041501 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the edge of the table a (d-2)-dimensional line? < 1267041526 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't matter as long as the table is flat and its coners are square < 1267041530 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then obviously 1/2 of the object must be supported < 1267041544 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm on the corner, not the edge < 1267041570 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh. < 1267041573 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i get the picture < 1267041591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let's see < 1267041600 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I'm also assuming a 90 degree corner. < 1267041619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A 60 degree corner, well I'm not sure what fraction has to be supported, but it's less than 1/4. < 1267041622 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay it's obviously 1/8 in four dimensions < 1267041622 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be worked out < 1267041682 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the surface is a ball one eight of which must be inside the cube < 1267041692 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eighththth < 1267041708 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 1/8 or 1/6 < 1267041721 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't really visualize 5 dimensions, but it clearly grows exponentially < 1267041722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/8 < 1267041723 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, if it's a disc, and a 60 deg corner, then 1/6. I was still thinking "book" though. < 1267041730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Uh, if only 1/4 of the surface area of a book is supported by a table under it... well, that doesn't sound balanced to me... <-- you could have it balanced on a point in the middle. can't you? < 1267041733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1267041734 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of the 4D case, though < 1267041739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means almost none of it is supported < 1267041744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet it is balanced < 1267041750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, right? < 1267041751 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not none < 1267041751 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in four dimensions, 1/8 < 1267041753 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a singularity < 1267041766 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or... < 1267041769 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, actually < 1267041774 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd call the 1/4 a singularity < 1267041794 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, infinitely before 1/4 < 1267041803 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell...? < 1267041809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Limit, maybe < 1267041820 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do realize this is just whether the center is on the surface? < 1267041832 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes, well I mentioned that anyway < 1267041848 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 1/(2^(d-1)) thing just comes from not just having the point, but a certain sort of cube around it < 1267041850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, am I not right about the balance in middle thing? < 1267041872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the other assumption: table is larger than object < 1267041898 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather, objects fits entirely on table < 1267041907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267041922 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5504/lkjsdkf.png < 1267041930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what if the object is heavier on one side < 1267041935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it could stick out more < 1267041936 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uniform density < 1267041940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that too < 1267041946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't clearly stated at the beginning! < 1267041950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah cpressey, what if we make the problem even more boring < 1267041953 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well* :D < 1267041959 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267041961 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in your scrollback and/or the log, just not at the beginning < 1267041968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, also what if we don't have a equal height object < 1267041969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say < 1267041971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a cone < 1267041979 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that was to generalize what AnMaster said) < 1267041982 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: the more interesting the problem, the more boring the result :) < 1267041983 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs to have infinite rotational symmetry < 1267041983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then couldn't it stick out more than half < 1267041987 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it must be concave < 1267041987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a flat cone of course < 1267041992 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1267041993 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convex < 1267041995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, and a flat top? < 1267042004 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever :D < 1267042007 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i prefer "the more complicated the problem, ..." < 1267042009 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267042022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, does it need a flat top or not? < 1267042026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a flat bottom < 1267042030 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopl, I take issues and I simplify parts of them to try to disprove things < 1267042037 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it needs a 2D bottom < 1267042045 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267042045 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :polgonal bottom < 1267042047 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lsdkjasd < 1267042051 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :polygonal bottom < 1267042066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, so not a perfect circle? < 1267042072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, that picture < 1267042083 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you need to ignore the "infinite number or sides" idea or a polygon < 1267042088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267042096 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it doesn't need infinite rotational symmetry, it needs 90 degree rotational symmetry < 1267042107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, well this is boring. Too specific problem < 1267042117 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267042127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which agrees with oklopol's correction of cpressey's suggestion < 1267042134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, I don't know the 4D thing either < 1267042140 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1267042148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, but do a drawing in 5D for me :) < 1267042167 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3928/sagitor.png < 1267042187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that? < 1267042193 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4d is pretty easy to visualize, because you just need to look at a 3d-segment < 1267042201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the 4d case is < 1267042212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yeah I have seen a 4D screensaver. Confusing! < 1267042214 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the collision is 3D < 1267042220 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I can't stand :( < 1267042228 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stand -> deal with < 1267042279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, hm. isn't it basically that one specific point needs to be supported < 1267042290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what the name of it is < 1267042294 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the object must be smaller than the static one < 1267042300 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "center of gravity" < 1267042304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right < 1267042310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could only remember the Swedish word < 1267042312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's not that hard to visualize the 3d projection of a 4d object, and the screensaver would project it even further < 1267042316 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the static one should be analogous to a rectangle < 1267042331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, was some hypercube turning iirc < 1267042336 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopl: I can deal with 4D, but not collision inside of it. < 1267042343 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can also "visualize" 4d using color and density etc < 1267042350 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267042354 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how's that confusing < 1267042360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, anyway yes I think it basically needs center of gravity to be supported < 1267042369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, not everyone finds 4D easy to think in! < 1267042374 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not what I'm wondering, though. < 1267042374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, not everyone is like you < 1267042376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay? < 1267042386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, well then what exactly are you asking? < 1267042402 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I described it enough < 1267042403 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1267042405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i mean it's just a 2d projection of the movement < 1267042412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, how much of the thing needs to be supported < 1267042425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, well "whatever is enough to cover the center of gravity" is my answer < 1267042440 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be fairly easy to generalize the concept of center of gravity of a uniform-density, symmetrical object, to /n/ dimensions. < 1267042451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes quite < 1267042454 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It mean, it's the geometric center. < 1267042498 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the question is, do we need a vector space, or could we also do it for measurable metric spaces? < 1267042523 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmmmmmmmmaybe. < 1267042561 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a point is central if it's close to all the other points, and we can measure the sets of points at distance > d, so we can make this precise < 1267042565 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since we apparently don't find 4D difficult to visualize :) < 1267042573 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :difficult *enough*, I mean < 1267042613 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah 4d is for kids < 1267042655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, so do it in 93d < 1267042662 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do what? < 1267042674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, anything at all < 1267042682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, btw what do you need this for? < 1267042734 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let's see, in n dimensions, we'd take the z0 such that the integral of (z - z0)^(smth) over the object is as small as possible? < 1267042742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's at least some sort of center < 1267042766 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just an idea < 1267042776 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering what the fraction would be for the fourth dimension < 1267042780 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether it were 1/6 or 1/8 < 1267042811 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the specific case of a shape with a convex, 2d base and 90 degree rotational symmetry along its vertical access < 1267042816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, now figure it out for 1d (I'm not even sure what it would mean there) < 1267042824 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1d is 1 < 1267042851 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have an object rotate in 1 dimension < 1267042859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267042875 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 < 1267042882 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it would make sense that it's 1/8 < 1267042903 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sequence is 1/2^n as mentioned < 1267043006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the surface touching the table is (d-1)-dimensional, consider the unit ball in d-1 dimensions, the table surface will be {(x1,...,xn) | xi > 0 for all i}, that is, the infinite cube spanned by the positive axes. < 1267043019 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have d-1 axes, and we take half of each < 1267043030 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> 1/2^(d-1) < 1267043062 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be easier to use the analog of a cyninder to the dimension < 1267043069 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267043072 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than the analog of a sphere < 1267043074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, unit ball as in unit circle? < 1267043078 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/5504/lkjsdkf.png < 1267043082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't that be unit sphere? < 1267043084 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the disc is uniform, so we just need to consider the surface touching the table < 1267043087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1267043089 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a ball < 1267043098 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use a sphere, the surface would be a singularity < 1267043101 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... you know < 1267043132 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: it's a balance tipping point, you're dealing with a limit anyway. < 1267043143 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267043149 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you deal with a limit and a singularity ,then what? < 1267043157 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not a unit sphere. consider the concrete dimensions: in 2d we have a line as the unit ball of d-1 dimensions, in 3d, we have a 2d disc, in 4d, we have a normal 3d ball < 1267043159 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1267043174 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works < 1267043194 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"singularity" is just another way to say "limit", isn't it? < 1267043199 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267043209 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a singularity uses a limit to describe itself < 1267043217 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where is the "singularity" in this sphere, then? < 1267043225 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: there's no "analog of sphere" or "analog of cylinder", by a d-1 dimensional ball i mean the natural embedding of a d-1 dimensional ball into a d dimensional space < 1267043242 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the contact area of a 3D sphere against a 3D rectangular prism can only be a singularity < 1267043246 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in 3d, you'd have a disc, in 2d, you'd have an etc < 1267043246 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless they intersect < 1267043260 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, okay < 1267043265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, what the fuck is a singularity? < 1267043271 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size n < 1267043275 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lim(n->0) < 1267043297 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: so the contact area is lim(n->0), which sounds like a limit to me < 1267043298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on reals that limit is 0 < 1267043307 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "singularity" of a computer screen is a pixel < 1267043329 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of the scope of a* < 1267043329 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like some sort of intuitive nonstandard analysis < 1267043339 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka bullshit < 1267043344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267043349 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267043374 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_singularity < 1267043427 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing discontinuous in the sphere/table setup, though. < 1267043444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you need a "singularity", can't you just say the object's center is exactly at the tip of the corner < 1267043446 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have two colliding singularities, what do you do? < 1267043458 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :treat them as spheres, boxes? < 1267043487 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: these singularities are not actually well-defined mathematical objects < 1267043499 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the ones the article talks about are < 1267043508 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither is an infinitely small point < 1267043518 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which the surface of intersection with a sphere is < 1267043528 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2infinitely small point"? < 1267043531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*" < 1267043538 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267043547 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any sensible measure of volume, a set containing just one point has measure 0 < 1267043551 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my use of the word in this case < 1267043555 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all points are infinitely small < 1267043571 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet some points are infinitely smaller than others! < 1267043578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why not just put the disc on the corner < 1267043590 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I was using to begin with < 1267043624 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol what's bullshit about that < 1267043703 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I prefer the term "science fiction". Whereever there is a singularity, there is a paradox caused by execessive quantum flux. < 1267043727 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because people who talk about singularities in that sort of context don't have any idea what they're talking about < 1267043743 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a proof for this, but my wormhole ate it. < 1267043753 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it's another way of using the word. < 1267043833 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean what the fuck does "lim n-->0" mean, the point that n approaches as n approaches 0? < 1267043840 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds sensible < 1267043847 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey hehe < 1267043856 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n is its size < 1267043866 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the size of the OBJECT that we are calling a singularity < 1267043884 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mesh size? < 1267043889 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do we have some sort of measure on these objects? < 1267043893 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonstandard analysis is just as much bullshit as ZFC < 1267043895 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the size of 1? is it 1? < 1267043905 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: there's nothing bullshitty about nonstandard analysis < 1267043913 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since there is an algorithm to translate proofs back) < 1267043915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of bullshit about people doing it without knowing what it is < 1267043919 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what is the unit of "1"? < 1267043923 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :souds like all caluculus oklopol < 1267043932 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people doing it all without knowing what it means < 1267043935 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly < 1267043941 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's bullshit too < 1267043953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have a proof for this, but my wormhole ate it. <-- no no "but the singularity is too small to contain it! < 1267043955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1267043958 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure, they're memorizing useful algorithms < 1267043967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i mean for a mathematician < 1267043973 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ok, that's actually a good joke < 1267043979 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Um... it was a very small proof? < 1267043998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, -_- < 1267044003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fermat joke < 1267044018 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lost on me, sorry. < 1267044024 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1267044027 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't < 1267044034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean you have to know the story < 1267044035 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1267044051 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I liked both cpressey's original, and AnMaster's correction < 1267044058 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the correction wouldn't have been funny without the original joke < 1267044104 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267044115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you could have used the corrected one in place of the original < 1267044118 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: i assumed we were talking about a vector space, if the size of a vector is its length, then obviously the only vector whose length is smaller than any positive number is the zero vector. < 1267044132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously = by definition < 1267044138 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original was funny too, though, and doing them in the other order wouldn't have worked < 1267044139 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not vector space < 1267044148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true < 1267044149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what is it? < 1267044151 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's real space - the one we don't know how to define < 1267044155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but just doing one would have worked < 1267044157 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267044162 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's discreete afaik < 1267044164 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*discrete < 1267044167 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267044167 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but it wouldn't have been as funny cumulatively < 1267044170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way < 1267044171 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two jokes are better than one < 1267044172 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who cares < 1267044174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wormholes < 1267044181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that interact with gravity < 1267044182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1267044194 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The higssdafjkshdfjklsdh boson did it < 1267044203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine you have a wormhole from somewhere near earth surface to somewhere on the moon < 1267044210 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267044212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would that give earth gravity at the moon? < 1267044217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what the heck would happen < 1267044260 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: since physics seems to happily accept the idea that gravity means curved space, ... < 1267044262 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gravity is a field effect < 1267044278 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a distortion of an object's inertia < 1267044285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes. But what would happen here < 1267044297 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, a wormhole is curved space, too, right? < 1267044307 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore wormholes are a kind of gravity. < 1267044311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267044320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, holes that changes the topology too iirc < 1267044342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they're gravity++ < 1267044360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267044368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so everyone would get crushed in wormholes? < 1267044423 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems "reasonable" that it would be much easier to "fall" into one than to get out, anyway. < 1267044465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if it goes straight from Earth to Earth's moon, that's one hell of a curve. < 1267044467 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yet things get out. < 1267044477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they? I have yet to see one < 1267044482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/so/do/ < 1267044532 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Under the theory of quantum mechanics black holes possess a temperature and emit Hawking radiation. < 1267044536 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1267044539 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole < 1267044541 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267044543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that yes < 1267044557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a wormhole wouldn't have a event horizon iirc < 1267044579 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a black hole contains a wormhole < 1267044582 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I've read < 1267044618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267044815 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267044897 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267045296 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe in black holes. < 1267045311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267045370 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267045645 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267045933 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you believe in the power of voodoo? < 1267045979 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267046048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Any undocumented functions in [the module] string should not be used." <-- okay, why do they need to point that out? < 1267046319 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if they've documented the undocumented functions yaws uses, yet < 1267046570 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Undocumented voodoo black holes. < 1267046842 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's where the flying nose demons live. < 1267046995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what are those functions yaws uses? < 1267047005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you mean the erlang yaws < 1267047198 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It uses some Erlang-internal mechanism to parse HTTP headers, iirc. < 1267047291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh? < 1267047573 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267047620 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... yes. < 1267047648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267047796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :absolutely not! < 1267047806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION now goes to find out what he was denying < 1267047948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1267047975 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that erlang has an undocumented function to parse HTTP headers < 1267047992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1267048016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that would _clearly_ be nonsense, since i read here the other day that ericsson document _everything_ < 1267048095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They even document the fact that you're not supposed to use undocumented functions. < 1267048100 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : theory: Google bought Youtube /just/ for leverage in getting rid of IE6 < 1267048129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the IE6 problem mostly about all the business sites using them, and wouldn't they like to _block_ youtube anyways < 1267048131 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for oerjan's opinion, and/or a terrible pun < 1267048135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it < 1267048139 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm, yes < 1267048265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:29:21 cpressey, what about the one of ick? < 1267048266 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:29:39 it looked pretty okay considering the language it is supposed to parse iirc < 1267048277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't ick's parsing sort of hyper-advanced < 1267048302 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parsing INTERCAL is hard < 1267048306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(going by vaguely absorbed discussions here) < 1267048321 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLC-INTERCAL's parsing is crazier, I think it's fully nondeterministic or something like that < 1267048338 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Nowadays, yes. *However*, ending IE6 support on Youtube might finally get it into the beancounters' bean-sized brains that IE6 is ancient. < 1267048539 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267048547 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267048550 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267048609 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267048635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah oklopol < 1267048643 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an oklopol < 1267048676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beware of the okloclones < 1267049153 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on oklopol < 1267049399 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ol' oklopol < 1267049482 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267049760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:49:39 a black hole contains a wormhole < 1267049790 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've read that it contains a singularity < 1267049850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that wormholes are very hard to stabilize, and tend to pinch off into singularities < 1267050088 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wormholes cannot be stable because they need either exotic matter or dark energy < 1267050131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267050296 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im a asrophisicist let me answer yourn question < 1267050319 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre very stable < 1267050384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may not be an astrophysicist, but i've read enough to suspect you're trolling < 1267050401 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, creating or destroying wormhole between two points in same space would involve topology change... < 1267050412 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW ON EArth did you guess that < 1267050446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom: because you are directly contradicting the wikipedia articles i browsed minutes ago? < 1267050475 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that was sarcasm as well, i thouight my terrible spelling might have been a clue < 1267050485 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know, maybe scientists are renowned for terrible spelling < 1267050499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom: i was _trying_ to ignore that, i didn't remember whether you were a dyslexic < 1267050520 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And energies related to topology changes might be very high. Magnetic monopole is thought to be particle related to spacetime topology and have mass somewhere on order of 10^16 GeV/c^2... < 1267050524 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're an incredibly generous person < 1267050548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why thank you < 1267051136 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267051204 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267051754 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267051916 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267051916 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267051916 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267051916 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267052026 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267052026 0 :adam_d_!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267052026 0 :Pthing!~pthing@cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust752.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267052026 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267052475 0 :adam_d_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267052603 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1267053785 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267053873 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267054134 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267054315 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267054396 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267054459 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267054472 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267054488 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267054538 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267054542 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267054549 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267054632 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1267054751 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267054778 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is anyone ever on the brainfuck chan anymore? < 1267054815 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1267054825 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one's used for all esolang discussion nowadays, it seems < 1267054833 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great language. < 1267054898 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I made a language, I had to make it cell based < 1267054915 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So It would be brainfucky < 1267055383 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267055542 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: songhead95 < 1267055580 0 :son_!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267055787 0 :son_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267055840 0 :son_!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267055945 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267055997 0 :son_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267056089 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Frankly, you'll find people more interested if you make something more bizarre. < 1267056577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1267056628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we need is a language based on _living_ cells < 1267056640 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION skimmed a book on that < 1267056772 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: we'll call it... brainfuck! < 1267056819 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck on a living brain? < 1267056846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cells will have to divide, naturally < 1267056896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will be an imperative language < 1267057323 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idonno, something about cell division makes me think of evaluating expressions ... not sure why :P < 1267057357 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it must definitely be imperative. < 1267058074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has done even more ridiculous things in the name of functional C programming. < 1267058104 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made my lambda macros use blocks. Now, they're only macros so that I can force the damned things to go through Boehm GC. < 1267058395 0 :charlesq__!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267058538 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267058944 0 :charlesq__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267059809 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267059822 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267059918 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267060010 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267060018 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! < 1267060246 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HELLO < 1267060268 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : BYE < 1267060269 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267060391 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awwww < 1267065101 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267065142 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello! < 1267065179 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267065287 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Analysis of Noise and Audio Library and Sound Exchange for X11 < 1267065311 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shall now write this, and submit it (as its acronym) to Google Code. < 1267065455 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT IF WOLFRAM ALPHA GOES SINGULAR? < 1267065490 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=can+entropy+be+reversed%3F < 1267065492 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION giggles  < 1267065522 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :locally, yes; globally, no < 1267065530 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bets on "Insufficient data for meaningful answer" < 1267065583 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wins 1 polka-dot panda < 1267065697 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm glad I have read that short story < 1267065713 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for eliezer yudkowsky to smack coppro for suggesting a singular AI can be less than global < 1267065732 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? < 1267065755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what _else_ would you mean? < 1267065774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh entropy < 1267065811 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_lol_ < 1267065817 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this underlines < 1267065820 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm scared < 1267065837 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's your client < 1267065838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: it's a client thing < 1267065847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bold* < 1267065852 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*.* < 1267065861 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always used ^b for bold < 1267065871 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ^u for underlines < 1267065899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: this channel censors colors, at least it used to. < 1267065949 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :testing < 1267065978 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/italic/ < 1267065979 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the ^b's didn't show up in the logs < 1267065987 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^b < 1267065997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: not shown any special in my client < 1267066008 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor mine < 1267066014 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, not the terminal < 1267066069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: by logs i mean the lines in the topic. you cannot actually see whether the irc server accepts your _own_ control codes directly < 1267066080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*link in the topic < 1267066095 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267066253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose the client could try to show it according to the channel mode though, mine (irssi) doesn't. < 1267066260 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267066577 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267066669 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267066685 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267067501 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267067637 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodnight! < 1267067645 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good night. < 1267067648 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267068232 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267068456 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267069030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267069911 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267072600 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1267075202 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267075207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklofok < 1267075426 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glium < 1267075452 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a glium? < 1267075727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a muilg < 1267075772 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the singular of glia < 1267075789 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where can I buy these glium? Ebay? < 1267075892 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1267075898 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY glium < 1267075900 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MINE < 1267075915 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it your precious? < 1267075928 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wanted to do some topology, but the lamp is depressed and i can't see :< < 1267075964 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sing the lamp a cheery song! < 1267075981 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Always look on the bright side of life" or something < 1267075999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Always look on the bright side of death! < 1267076002 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts singing < 1267076060 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt it can be brought out of such a deep ression < 1267076099 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess i could just change the bulb < 1267076116 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, alternatively, i could just use the light from my computer screen < 1267076221 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of unfortunate my windows theme is almost completely black < 1267076299 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wonder your light is depressed. Maybe it likes happy colours like yellow, or pink! < 1267076317 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not gonna happen! < 1267076320 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267076352 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yellow at least, god that's an ugly color < 1267076534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Windows? < 1267076537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. < 1267076548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That still exists, doesn't it? < 1267076716 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vista is an okay os < 1267076720 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What OS do u use? < 1267076729 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he uses cool hacker oses < 1267076761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: Gentoo. < 1267076787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a somewhat quirky window manager setup. < 1267076794 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im using Fedora 8 >.> < 1267076846 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Which WM? < 1267076910 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ratpoison. < 1267076916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For managing *both* of my windows. < 1267077039 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One would be the irc win. What's the other? < 1267077062 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you dont mind me asking) < 1267077063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... IRC window? < 1267077066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's crazy talk. < 1267077070 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the root window and xterm for screen obv < 1267077073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a terminal and a web browser. < 1267077081 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 windows then < 1267077082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. The root window. < 1267077097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always forget that that's there. < 1267077107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only see it when I typo. < 1267077110 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you are not using the term for irc? Telepathy? :) < 1267077128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I just don't have a dedicated IRC window. < 1267077136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have a terminal running screen. < 1267077185 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I ask which term u use? < 1267077193 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a screen running terminal < 1267077195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urxvt. < 1267077271 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: text mode linux terminal? < 1267077500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, the physical terminal, or the Linux virtual terminal? < 1267077500 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267077566 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the phrase I was looking for: Linux virtual terminal < 1267077793 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267077853 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267077939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267078180 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can I ask why you prefer urxvt over all others? < 1267078202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: Lightweight, supports Unicode. < 1267078225 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it have tabs? < 1267078237 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, why would I want those? < 1267078245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those require a mouse to use. < 1267078288 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, no they dont. I switch between tabs with +PageUp/Down all the time < 1267078304 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/alt/ctrl/ < 1267078310 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They take up space on screen. < 1267078331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My entire screen is text ATM. < 1267078388 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urxvt doesnt have a menu, then? Not even hidden one thatt appears when required? < 1267078424 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only oses i can stand are cell phone and calculator oses < 1267078443 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish computer oses were less extendable and more good. < 1267078458 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: What do you torture yourself with on your comp? < 1267078463 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vista < 1267078476 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've tried windowses and ubuntu < 1267078500 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ubuntu was too hard to use, you had to press multiple buttons to make things work < 1267078508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has a hidden one that involves a mouse click of some sort. < 1267078508 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried DOS 6.22 yet? < 1267078534 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text-only ones are usually good, they are just ugly < 1267078548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Ugly but usable. < 1267078616 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1267078670 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps Slackwafre 1.0 would be best? ;) < 1267078680 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that < 1267078730 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops. Should be Slackware < 1267078742 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the first Linux distro releases < 1267078817 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sort of fed up with linux, ubuntu had me constantly learning how things work, because they didn't < 1267078829 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :granted, i didn't have a very new version. < 1267078853 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't want to learn irrelevant things < 1267078887 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want an OS to "just work". You dont need the complexity that flexibility brings? < 1267078895 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267078910 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my calculator can't handle flash :< < 1267078929 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What calc is it? < 1267078985 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ti-86, i don't actually use it much, i just said that because i just praised calculator oses. < 1267078990 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice and simple < 1267079042 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also i obviously don't want the computer to forget state when i turn it off, and i want it to start up instantly < 1267079047 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just like any calculator) < 1267079075 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's a minor thing < 1267079221 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What processor does TI86 run on? < 1267079243 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea < 1267079304 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really care, i just know it runs the native basic very slowly < 1267079328 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have a TI84 which was an upgrade to the TI83 and runs on a z80 < 1267079333 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made this snake game in it, no way to make it fast enough to be challenging :< < 1267079462 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant to make a snake one on mine, but got distracted and never finished it >.> < 1267079528 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my attention span is about two hours for stuff like that < 1267079553 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complete waste of time in that any monkey could do it, i basically just wanted to have something to play during lectures < 1267079620 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267079641 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267079663 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You seem to be a kind of non-geeky geek. < 1267079743 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, maybe < 1267079895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guyses < 1267079902 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok especially < 1267079902 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i also started on an ski interp, that one i never finished, but had some fun ideas, i used the screen as a stack < 1267079924 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :columns were continuations < 1267079926 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me?!? < 1267079928 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shit < 1267079932 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you! < 1267079933 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1267079936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pounces oklofok < 1267079947 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear < 1267079952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... oklofok, non-geeky? < 1267079967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Maybe compared to some others here. < 1267080003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im writing this super humongoid article for wikipedia < 1267080003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg < 1267080005 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ski thing sounded interesting < 1267080051 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what about? < 1267080068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :controlled grammars < 1267080080 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: i implement ski in pretty much everything i touch, because it's nice and simple, and very, very pure. < 1267080114 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267080115 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(always ski, never sk, i think i is important for purity) < 1267080125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i for purity? < 1267080127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just skk. < 1267080135 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it's more coincidence that i happens to be implementable in terms of s and k < 1267080141 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's mathematical reason to have all thre < 1267080143 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*three < 1267080147 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? I would have thought sk was more pure than ski < 1267080165 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: try reading the proof that all expressions can be expressed as SKI some time < 1267080167 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :purity != minimalism < 1267080170 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the i is very necessary there < 1267080175 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all lambda expressions < 1267080185 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well s and k can express anything, i'd say sk is mathematically purer, ski is programmatically purer. < 1267080187 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe what augur said. < 1267080192 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i know is ski > sk. < 1267080204 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't think of a sane way to do the proof for sk without implementing i in terms of s and k first < 1267080210 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267080300 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Do you normally write your expressions in lambda calc first then convert to sk? < 1267080366 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: I know I do < 1267080369 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except I convert to ski < 1267080379 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda has an i, and why else would you convert? < 1267080382 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry,, I forgot the i < 1267080401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Do you perform I/O with your SKI? < 1267080406 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so i = ``skk, but who cares < 1267080425 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: obviously not :| < 1267080442 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use Unlambda I/O, but that's rather impure and (probably deliberately) convoluted < 1267080443 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: But it's so very simple to do in a purely functional manner. < 1267080444 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ii is important < 1267080445 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267080447 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metaphysically < 1267080454 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Bah. < 1267080455 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how then? < 1267080458 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K I/O. < 1267080480 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: i don't write ski at all, usually. < 1267080486 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i write it in other things. < 1267080491 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*implement < 1267080507 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: You use a prog lang that compiles to ski? < 1267080518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program is passed a lazy infinite list of church numerals representing the input in UTF-8. After an "end of file" condition on input, the values are just 256. < 1267080532 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267080538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The program *returns* a lazy list of church numerals representing the output in UTF-8. An EOF is represented by 256. < 1267080548 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah obviously < 1267080563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Viola. Lazy K I/O. < 1267080566 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: no, i don't write programs in ski. < 1267080572 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not big ones < 1267080575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its his native language, amca. it really is. < 1267080587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That's zzo38. < 1267080597 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267080601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, either that or x86 machine code. It's hard to tell. < 1267080649 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, zzo38 doesn't have any particular native language, but all natural and all programming languages in existence just flow naturally from him < 1267080652 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do ski machines tend to use church numerals? Why not lists of booleans for numbers?? < 1267080662 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then oklopol has to discover them < 1267080670 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: Because church numerals are much nicer. < 1267080670 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: arithmetic's easier, and it's mathematically nicer < 1267080696 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I suppose decrement's slightly easier with lists of booleans; but addition and multiplication are easier with church numerals < 1267080702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a list of booleans for numbers is a *royal pain* to deal with functionally) < 1267080719 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shorter programs with church numbers? < 1267080765 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh, I thought you meant unary < 1267080772 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing it in /binary/ would be really ouch < 1267080790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: He said booleans, so, yeah. < 1267080794 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Pain*. < 1267080803 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming end of list / not end of list < 1267080807 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise you need a marker for the end < 1267080827 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, though, binary may translate well into wires, which is why computers use it < 1267080829 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, if your design is modular enough, the implementation of numbers will be hidden. < 1267080832 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it translates badly into functions < 1267080856 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you still have to implement the operations, tho... < 1267080875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: ... *SKI*. < 1267080894 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay exercise one done... i should probably close the irc window at some point < 1267080894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your best chance of doing it modularly is passing the implementation as an argument. < 1267080903 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267080905 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Could always have a "false" value for end-of-list < 1267080917 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: have you seen my bf in python lambdas? < 1267080923 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: if you're using true and false as 1 and 0, what do you use as EOL? < 1267080930 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1267080939 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did exactly that, long list of lambdas as arguments < 1267080956 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's how I write relambda < 1267080963 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: An actual list with a "nil" value? < 1267080965 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I/O gets abstracted and passed in as arguments < 1267080975 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, OK < 1267080994 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue with SKI, though, is that the only way to tell the value of something is by passing it arguments and seeing what happens < 1267080998 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Your EOL would only be in the cdr, not the car, all your 1s and0s would be in the car, so you can have false in the cdr for the EOL < 1267081013 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, the result of all operations is either an infinite loop (not good), or defined < 1267081023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Uh... < 1267081025 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you have a typical false value (say `ki) for your cdr < 1267081032 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can take its head and tail < 1267081036 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(typically both i, in this case) < 1267081054 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get false = [true | true] < 1267081067 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be a language where all flow control relies on the detection of infinite loops < 1267081088 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: You represent your list as: (end-of-list-p, (car, cdr)) < 1267081112 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: heh, then you're effectively using 1-hot-ternary-coded-binary < 1267081156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nil is (True, (I, I)) < 1267081186 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that would /work/, but it's effectively the same thing as just using ternary < 1267081197 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes. < 1267081240 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you probably couldn't write multiplication, say, anywhere near as effectively as with church numerals < 1267081274 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: hmm, istr finding something like that on the esolang wiki, an esolang based on solving the halting problem < 1267081298 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you perform binary ops on church numerals? (and, or, xor, etc) < 1267081317 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not easily, but why would you want to? < 1267081323 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267081324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but probably not *easily*. < 1267081351 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link if so, i doubt it's done in an interesting way. < 1267081363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Binary ops aren't exactly useful things on non-binary numbers. < 1267081375 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can easily do blitting < 1267081416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267081430 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: why would you be using the bits of a number to encode pixels in memory? < 1267081434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blitting, in a language without anything beyond stdin and stdout? < 1267081435 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd do blitting via array copies < 1267081444 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267081448 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267081451 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: List copies, really. < 1267081467 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1267081471 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or tuple copies < 1267081474 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: looks like what I'm refering to is http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainhype and http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Onoz < 1267081479 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two data structures are rather different in SKI < 1267081489 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: For sprite movement etc. I suppose in a functional language, raytracing would be more appropriate rather than blitting < 1267081499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: There are no graphics. < 1267081513 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267081514 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: There aren't even, really, stdin and stdout. < 1267081527 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is the argument, and there is the result. < 1267081532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*That's it*. < 1267081555 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why cant the result be the video frame every 1/60 seconds? < 1267081602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it can. You could, of course, have the result be a raw video dump just fine. < 1267081608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you're not doing blitting. < 1267081619 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence my comment about ray-tracing < 1267081632 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blitting is a very specific technique used soley because binary operators are fast in low-level languages. < 1267081636 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: you're thinking incorrectly here < 1267081645 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, if you were doing blitting, the result could be instructions to video hardware to perfom the actual blitting < 1267081646 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're thinking "blitting is fast on a computer, so it should be fast on an SKI machine" < 1267081657 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get the same effect, sure, but you wouldn't do it via copying bit-blocks < 1267081661 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd be copying lists instead < 1267081664 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKI doesn't have binary operators at all. < 1267081680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SKI can do implementations of them, but they are slow. < 1267081682 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, logging out and back in, the mouse focus here has gone insane < 1267081699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because your computer is *pretending* to be a SKI machine, and this process is slow. < 1267081711 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No, Im not. Im thinking "blitting is fast on video hardware, so video hardware would expect input to refer to it" < 1267081720 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267081720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, it's actually much faster than anything else you could find, but that's beside the point.) < 1267081743 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, my reasoning is perverse. That's is half the point. To see how far I can stretch an analogy for myself. < 1267081752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: But blitting is fast largely because you are directly modifying state. < 1267081753 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267081760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In SKI, there is no state. < 1267081766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are only S, K, and I. < 1267081776 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how the bottom toolbar can have stolen mouse capture like that... < 1267081806 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: neither of those really uses the halting detection for anything < 1267081821 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just bf with halting detection, and bf without infloops < 1267081934 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Have you heard of the Reduceron? < 1267081945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: Yes, the graph reduction machine. < 1267082032 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking you could hook it up to video hardware and input devices, and have each eval be for each frame < 1267082044 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: yeah yeah < 1267082082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: But clearly if you evaluate the same function with the same arguments, you will get the same result. < 1267082140 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i missed the "looks like what i'm ..." thing, probably you realized that too < 1267082144 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean something like < 1267082156 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't even write a program that halts, directly < 1267082161 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything just goes into an infloop < 1267082170 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, this will be detected, and things will return < 1267082231 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. Which is why with each iteration, different arguments to be applied to the program are eval'd. The arguments would include input device state and , say, gameworld model, and the outputs would be changed game world model and video hardware input. < 1267082256 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would there be a better way to implement a game on a reduceron? < 1267082488 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267082624 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either jcp wants many routers, or people don't like blowjobs anymore. < 1267083286 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklofok < 1267083319 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi adu < 1267083354 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've made a breakthrough with my language! < 1267083410 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi adu. What's your language? < 1267083428 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool! i have this vague recall that we talked about some language of yours, but can't remember what it was :) < 1267083428 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need to design, build, nor implement any part of it! brilliant! < 1267083443 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Droscript < 1267083464 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i don't think i've heard that name at least < 1267083489 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some rudimentary documentation of it here: < 1267083495 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://drosera.co.cc/ < 1267083557 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a new programming language too, currently undocumented, but i still like advertising it: www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.rar < 1267083593 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate rars < 1267083629 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about that. < 1267083652 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, now i have to search through hundreds of downloads to find 5 files < 1267083666 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate rars < 1267083671 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267083689 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could reup in some other format, but my connection is pretty slow. < 1267083730 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lzma is much more opensource than rar < 1267083802 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyways, my language was supposed to by a Pythonic Haskell < 1267083812 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really care about open sorcity. < 1267083816 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sourcity < 1267083830 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blasphemer! < 1267083868 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267083886 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: "supposed to by a" = " supposed to be a"? < 1267083892 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267083922 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1267083930 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: then when you find yourself in a jail made by Microsoft, and they charge you $20/day to sit on the floor, and threaten to throw away the key if you want to use the toilet, and electrocute you every time you use the sink, then sure, stick with proprietary < 1267083961 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: yes, i can't type < 1267084012 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure that sentence made any sense, but you have a point, using both open and closed source is much more restricted than just using open source. < 1267084044 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i can never experience the freedom of hating some file type because it's closed < 1267084075 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big peeve: "Trusted" computing < 1267084091 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ultimate in closed source < 1267084108 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is "trusted computing"? < 1267084135 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't google it < 1267084139 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html < 1267084183 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: Are you a private concubine or RMS? < 1267084189 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or = of < 1267084207 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh no < 1267084213 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just like him < 1267084230 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I be an open source/free software advocate who nevertheless thinks that RMS is crazy? < 1267084231 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RMS is my hero < 1267084238 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267084242 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many ppl do < 1267084256 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do < 1267084262 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can be a U.S. patriot who hates Obama < 1267084294 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, the saying: "I love my country, but I fear my government" < 1267084328 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trusted computing sounds like a great idea < 1267084338 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if everyone wants to be a part of it < 1267084343 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: can I give you a language to shoot yourself with? < 1267084350 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267084377 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267084381 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like socialism in that sense < 1267084389 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess in a different direction < 1267084396 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267084404 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: if by "Everyone" you mean 0.0000001% of netizens, then yes < 1267084421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well that would _clearly_ be nonsense, since i read here the other day that ericsson document _everything_ <-- quite. All documented functions at least. :D. Often new features are experimental and undocumented for a year or two before it is documented and considered stable < 1267084437 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're saying if 0.0000001% of people think trusted computing is a great idea, then imposing it on everyone would work fine? < 1267084447 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really don't think that's true < 1267084458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: and often even then it has a warning about that it might be subject to change for another year or so < 1267084480 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think and hope it would fail horribly < 1267084500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl university < 1267084504 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i'm saying the only people who it benefits is 0.0000001% of netizens < 1267084518 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that has nothing to do with what i said < 1267084522 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so naturally those would be the people who want it < 1267084543 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267084562 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since those are the same people in charge, it will likely be forced on the rest because of the power they hold < 1267084577 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in the end, what you said < 1267084746 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267084799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267084800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267085227 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267085249 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267086428 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267086588 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267087639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: :o < 1267087773 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna learn about minimalist grammars? :D < 1267088385 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267088787 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267089063 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267089081 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1267089532 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267091223 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! < 1267091248 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267091275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee < 1267091336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna learn about minimalist grammars? :D < 1267091345 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no time. < 1267091348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267091353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wont take long! < 1267091399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to #minigram :D < 1267091417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if for no reason other than to get the logs < 1267092722 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267093786 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267094049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267094524 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267094572 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267095324 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267097369 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay i just conquered the topologist's sine curve, the boss of level 1 in topology. < 1267097424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i think so, this is not a very well-organized game < 1267097515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts an alexander horned sphere rolling towards oklopol < 1267097536 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267097578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't even remember its definition, although i do remember what i'm supposed to do to kill it. < 1267097623 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully i can get some better weapons before the sphere < 1267097640 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently i'm basically fighting with my bare hands < 1267098035 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i read #minigram, i'm following the lecture sofar < 1267098052 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267098315 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not that you really even started yet < 1267099510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lateral < 1267099734 0 :ais523!~93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-xcyfczvnupqgrmrw JOIN :#esoteric < 1267099846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eatness -> < 1267099881 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267099881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267099882 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267099882 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267099882 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1267099965 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267100098 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267100120 0 :mycroftiv!~ircguy@h69-128-47-242.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267100147 0 :chickenzilla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267101180 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1267101720 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267106100 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B1330AD.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267106407 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: good night < 1267107329 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267107416 0 :Libster!~Libster@pool-74-103-90-165.bltmmd.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267107439 0 :Libster!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267107705 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-252-102.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267107712 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-3-100.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267107834 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267108985 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267109395 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"All parts should go together without forcing. You must remember that the parts you are reassembling were disassembled by you. Therefore, if you can't get them together again, there must be a reason. By all means, do not use a hammer. ~ IBM maintenance manual, 1925" < 1267109596 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267109733 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267110310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hi there. What sort of things would you recommend to work with VHDL on linux? < 1267110332 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I use GHDL as a simulator, with gtkwave < 1267110356 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt there are free synthesizers around, though; all the ones I've seen tend to be nastily expensive < 1267110358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, thanks. Will start a course in a few weeks about digital circuits & VHDL (basic level course) < 1267110370 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they generally run just as well on Linux as on Windows, which is interesting < 1267110391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I expect the uni has stuff for the labs. But having something to experiment with at home seems useful < 1267110396 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(GHDL's interesting, as it effectively compiles VHDL to a binary, which is /not/ the normal way to simulate it; the binary produces simulation output) < 1267110431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, what is a synthesizers in this case? Something to program real hardware? < 1267110439 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pretty much < 1267110443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something to simulate it is just fine for me to begin with < 1267110456 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be precise, it generally generates a file used to program the hardware < 1267110483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267110510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, so a compiler to something that can be loaded into an FPGA basically? < 1267110523 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267110535 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :synthesizers are also often very slow < 1267110548 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can take half an hour to run for the little toy chips that they let undergraduates use < 1267110554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, and you download it over a serial port or such? < 1267110564 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well over a day if you're trying to fit a lot of data onto a medium-sized chip < 1267110570 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you nearly always download over JTAG < 1267110581 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which generally needs special software, and a driver for the JTAG cable < 1267110583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh interesting < 1267110591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, why jtag? < 1267110610 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's the standard very-low-level interface to reprogrammable hardware, nowadays < 1267110626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you have a device that can reprogram itself from software, JTAG's how you reset it if it screws uo < 1267110628 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*up < 1267110630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I programmed PIC12* it was generally done over serial port. < 1267110632 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :serial would be rather higher level < 1267110640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PIC12F627 or something such iirc) < 1267110646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(maybe 629?) < 1267110693 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and PICs don't program over the serial port directly; what happens is they only need a couple of data wires to program, so the programmer just links them to a couple of wires in an RS232 link, maybe with voltage-level adaption, and drives them directly in a way rather unlike what the RS232 spec suggests) < 1267110725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well yes, you latched some leg high to make it enter programming mode < 1267110729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267110746 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: at least on the 16F series, you do it by putting 9V (or was it 12V) in on the reset pin < 1267110746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since my circuit used serial port for other purposes during normal operation < 1267110752 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the device normally only uses 5V < 1267110755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was natural to do it over the same interface < 1267110760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with a jumper iirc < 1267110768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you moved to a programming mode < 1267110772 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a really clever solution to stopping people entering programming mode by mistake < 1267110787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I don't remember the details < 1267110800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I do remember I had to move a jumper to do it < 1267110803 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, IIRC on a PIC, the same two pins that are used for programming clock/data are the ones commonly used for clock/data on a uniplex data link < 1267110823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I also remember that the interrupt routine that read serial data was a pain to code. < 1267110836 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, if you understand interrupts < 1267110839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you had to get timing right and make it finish before the next piece of data arrived < 1267110856 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about eight lines of asm, or maybe thirty of C because the C compilers typically used for PICs are so bad < 1267110862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, back then I barely did < 1267110880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also, there is no built in support for serial data in PIC12F* series < 1267110894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc there is in some more advanced models < 1267110902 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: even on the 16F series, it's just a buffer for one byte < 1267110910 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, two bytes under certain circumstances, I think < 1267110912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, no buffer thingy here on 12F < 1267110924 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that you don't have to poll/respond to interrupts quite as often < 1267110932 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but which still means that you have to do most of the work yourself < 1267110946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, also remember you have very very limited memory, both ram and flash < 1267110954 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, I know < 1267110967 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably know more about PICs than you do < 1267110968 0 :tombom__!tombom@86.25.48.58 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267110983 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've even built a PIC programmer from components before, and written long programs for them in asm < 1267110995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, true for more advanced models at least. But isn't the 16F series vastly more advanced than the 12F series? < 1267111008 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not vastly, I wouldn't say < 1267111016 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has more random features that most people don't use < 1267111017 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's about it < 1267111021 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, often more pins < 1267111049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, more registers iirc too? < 1267111063 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit, not all that much though < 1267111071 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might get maybe 100 bytes or so of memory on a high-end model < 1267111128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, plus I needed some nasty logic to drive 12 LEDs with the 8 pin PIC I had. And some of those 8 pins were needed for other things. iirc I made use of that LED only works in one direction and to light up more than one led at once I just quickly switched between them < 1267111160 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a standard trick, I've used it myself < 1267111162 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267111189 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other method would be to multiplex it as a 3x4 display, which uses 7 pins, same as 6+6 with one wire for direction < 1267111197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes true, still somewhat tricky to code for me back then < 1267111201 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably combine the methods and only use 6 pins, but that would just be confusing < 1267111257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, actually of those 8 pins, one was needed for serial iirc, and two for power things. So that leaves 8-3=5 pins for the leds < 1267111293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I don't remember how I connected them. But it was somewhat confusing to get it to work < 1267111297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, driving 12 from 5 seems painful; even connecting it as a K_5 can only do 10 pins < 1267111312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it was possible though < 1267111321 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you can do 20 with a K_5 < 1267111322 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is possible < 1267111342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K_5? I don't remember that term < 1267111418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: complete graph on 5 vertices < 1267111421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, anyway I did this when I was around 13 years old or so. I don't remember most details any longer. < 1267111771 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267111914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is completely irrelevant, but the TI calculator "link cable" connection is really funky; it's a three-wire port, one is ground and two for data, but it's a sort of a "clockless" asynchronous protocol; to send a bit, you pull one wire low (which one depends on the bit), wait for the receiver to acknowledge by pulling the other wire low, then raise the original back to high and wait for the receiver to acknowledge that. < 1267111960 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya: I thought of a way to help visualize the balance problem thing in 4 dimensions... in 3 dimensions, the disc and the table are basically 2 dimensional. They have a thickness, but it's not interesting. The disc is on the table. It falls off when it center is no longer above the table. < 1267111986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a bit tricky to interface with on the TI DSP board; despite being made by the same company, "surprisingly" the rather advanced (or at least feature-rich) serial communications circuitry wasn't really helpful for that sort of stuff. < 1267111994 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 4 dimensions, the sphere and the container are basically 3 dimensional. They have a 4-dimensionalness, but it's not interesting. The sphere is in the container. It falls off when the center is no longer inside the container. < 1267112003 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The weird part, to me, is what "falls" means in 4D :) < 1267112013 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: read up on I²C some time, it's just as fun < 1267112023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what? really? < 1267112024 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has the most ingenious method of handling collisions I've ever seen < 1267112024 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prefers truly 1-wire protocols. < 1267112031 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, there are two wires, clock and data < 1267112038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this is the cable you connect to the box attached to the serial cable? < 1267112041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you are talking about < 1267112056 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the system's set up such that if either of two devices tries to send a 0, the wire goes 0, otherwise it goes to 1 < 1267112061 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the clock ends up in sync < 1267112071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I have a TI black link cable < 1267112076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :came with my TI-83+ < 1267112078 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, if two devices try to send at once, then as long as they're sending the same data, everything's fine < 1267112091 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, the GraphLink cable. I think even the official serial cable contains some PIC-like chips to translate that stuff into standard RS232. < 1267112092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as soon as they differ in the data they're sending, one of them tries to send a 1 but sees a 0, so it shuts up < 1267112101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh :D < 1267112114 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and from everything else's point of view, it's as if only one of the devices was actually sending < 1267112115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Some of the home-built ones do that decoding on the processor, by just connecting those into suitable pins. < 1267112122 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it sort-of fixes conflicts retroactively < 1267112178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait? so it is left to the computer cpu to try to make sense of the protocol? < 1267112218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, if you use a home-built simple cable like that. There's the "open-source" PIClink cable which does it like the TI one, having more sense in the cable itself. < 1267112243 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: That's nifty. < 1267112245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the signal levels and such are compatible ? < 1267112265 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yep, I think it's rather neat < 1267112309 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Close enough, if you add some diodes in there. The serial port pins aren't really read-and-write suitable, so the usual design uses a pair of pins in the serial port for each one of the wires. < 1267112393 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with Maxim's 1-wire protocol is that it's actually 2 wires, because those wimps insist on having a ground reference. It is bidirectional, though. http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/1796 < 1267112434 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: all the standard assumptions break if you don't assume a ground reference < 1267112446 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means designing a truly 1-wire protocol could be relatively tricky < 1267112456 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: ;) < 1267112545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I think for the calc-dsp thing we used some low-level code on the calculator side to implement a unidirectional more-or-less synchronous "one clock wire, one data wire" serial protocol, just because then we could on the DSP side just program the serial port circuitry to completely automagically collect a full four-byte data packet and stick it (with DMA) to the DSP chip's memory. < 1267112592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1267112629 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember seeing a Circuit Cellar circuit for a modem that operated over your home's AC wiring. So you plug in one modem into the mains upstairs, plug in another modem downstairs, and voila. 300 bps between them. < 1267112639 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mind you, they're just compatible in practice, not in theory. The RS232 voltages can (spec-wise) go a lot higher (15V?) than what the calculator is designed to accept (5V). < 1267112651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ouch. < 1267112663 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: not just that, in standard practice they /do/ < 1267112677 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the RS232 port on a typical computer ought to be +/- 9V < 1267112688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway these days I think USB cables are used < 1267112691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1267112697 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a chip called the MAX232 that converts RS232 logic levels to/from standard ones, it's pretty standard nowadays < 1267112717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for calculators I meant < 1267112719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mean* < 1267112768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which reminds me (somehow, can't explain why): new erlang version out yesterday. yay. And quite a lot of documentation improvement < 1267112788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus this release is the first after they switched from the cathedral to a more open development process. < 1267112837 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I always wanted to abuse that chip to do something related to voltage boosting that it was never designed for < 1267112858 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267112864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: let me guess, the distribution grew... 90 megabytes this time? < 1267112874 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably possible, there's likely a datasheet somewhere < 1267112880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: I use GHDL as a simulator, with gtkwave <-- why does this pull in gnat < 1267112883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1267112883 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and good datasheets are as general as possible < 1267112888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there actually someone using ada? < 1267112889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1267112893 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: who knows < 1267112897 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VHDL is very ADA-like < 1267112905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ghdl gnat-4.3 gnat-4.3-base gtkwave libgnat-4.3 libgnatprj4.3 libgnatvsn4.3 < 1267112905 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wouldn't surprise me if bits of the parser were shared < 1267112911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't even list gtkwave there < 1267112913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just ghdl < 1267112915 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the design goals of VHDL was actually to make it look like ada < 1267112917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it pulled in all those deps < 1267112923 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Ada < 1267112937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, One* < 1267112938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I bet gtkwave is on the recommended list, because there's no point in producing simulation data you can't view) < 1267112942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TI switched to usb cables for the calcs, yes. < 1267112953 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Erlang/OTP dist only grew by 1.4 megabytes. Drat. < 1267112964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, har < 1267112976 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to double every time! Or something < 1267112986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, if they switch from .gz to .bz2 or .lzma it would shrink < 1267112992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that would break compat < 1267112994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they would never < 1267113003 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that there ever were any problems with official TI serial cables, those did the right thing. < 1267113012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they did they would provide new and old formats for quite a few releases < 1267113027 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.pax.lzma! < 1267113041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suuure < 1267113148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know any open source tool for simulating analogue AC circuits btw? < 1267113163 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, isn't that Moore's law: the size of Erlang doubles every 18 months? < 1267113173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1267113215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they finally documented the -type/-spec thingy (with a disclaimer that it might change still, but will probably become stable in the next major release) < 1267113229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, efunge has been using that since near the start ;) < 1267113796 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267113933 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267114641 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pax! < 1267114645 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh gawd pax < 1267114673 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pix of teh pax < 1267114705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is funny how gnome somehow puts a harddrive icon on my desktop for sshfs file systems < 1267114710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I mounted from command line < 1267114712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1267114997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this is so sad, erlang's build system isn < 1267115002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't* -j2 safe < 1267115018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tried to execute the erlang compiler before the runtime was built < 1267115212 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1267115217 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is pretty sad, considering. < 1267115356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, exactly < 1267115479 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The image on http://www.chromium.org/Home is not exactly brilliant marketing. It looks like the browser is on its way to the Great Hereafter. < 1267115502 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh.......................................... < 1267115862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hah < 1267115876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not how I saw it < 1267115917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, looked like a reference to < 1267115952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't he supposed to have wings on his shoes or something < 1267116192 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. They want you to think it's fast... I just tried it for the first time, though, and it's so "fast" it's actually annoying. < 1267116210 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fast in the way a grumpy person snapping at you is fast. < 1267116237 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, maybe if I used it for real browsing, it would be different.\ < 1267116335 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267117246 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-252-102.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267117813 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267118211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, err " Fast in the way a grumpy person snapping at you is fast." <-- what? < 1267118310 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267119010 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not fast so much as its SUDDEN. < 1267119811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, idea for a future befunge: / and \ swap meanings based on direction of travel < 1267120362 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's a great idea, but it breaks a lot. < 1267120371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well yes < 1267120383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh btw I find the colour scheme on http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/website_funge98.html rather unreadable < 1267120403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the light green on the gray-patterned bg < 1267120414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I preferred the old yellow based one < 1267120425 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you can go to the source page, or you can tell your browser to ignore the CSS < 1267120435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, like is still on http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/TURT.html < 1267120439 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html < 1267120448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, source page? I just clicked the spec link on http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/ < 1267120455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I have always been doing < 1267120461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah there it is < 1267120481 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next to the link is a link that says "source file" -- there should be a link in the marked-up doc too, but there isn't yet < 1267120487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not the one at the top < 1267120497 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, there shoul;d be a link there too < 1267120498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, under the heading "Documentation" < 1267120528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since half of the time I need the spec and the other half one of the fingerprints I just bookmarked the "index" < 1267120579 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, since TURT still says "Under development" :) < 1267120601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaargh < 1267120608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that would break the nice TURT quine < 1267120621 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I know. < 1267120640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for anyone who missed it http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/tquine.php) < 1267120644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So are people really mixing up left and right or is that some SVG thing < 1267120649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is btw an awesome domain name < 1267120806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it was some svg thing < 1267120812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, weird coordinate system in svg < 1267120831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but it seems like people treat the coordinate system as navigational < 1267120835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I did too < 1267120840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'k, that makes more sense. < 1267120842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when re-implementing it and reading my old code < 1267120850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't aware that I had taken some shortcuts < 1267120861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ab)using that it would be inverted < 1267120871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus no need to convert the value when calling sin/cos < 1267120878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus I assumed it was mathematical < 1267120882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not navigational < 1267120892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 0 = east made it more probable too < 1267120932 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could always define several different fingerprints, TURT, TURM, TURN, whatever, to handle all the different interpretations out there - making those programs easy to "fix" < 1267121022 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, IF I decide to work on Befunge-111. Well, I already started some small effort to rewrite the spec, so maybe. < 1267121048 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should start with a gigantic "Definitions" section, with the rest of the spec being relatively small and relying heavily on the definitions. < 1267121116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I have nothing against a radically different language, but probably it shouldn't be called befunge then. Imagine you were the C standard working group. What sort of changes would you allow < 1267121137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99 is basically fixing undef and adding some new non-colliding things < 1267121153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very few C90 programs can't compile unmodified as C99 in my experience < 1267121165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, there will be some corner cases < 1267121190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, C99 was pretty well defined to minimise breakage. < 1267121271 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I agree. < 1267121290 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus there are a bunch of Be- names that could be riffed on. < 1267121311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and interestingly enough befunge111s would be way less capable than befunge98s < 1267121319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you add a lot new stuff < 1267121340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the s versions are defined to be "only new commands, any commands in previous versions are excluded) < 1267121344 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what would you think of deprecating some of the uglier parts? < 1267121345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/)/"/ < 1267121351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, such as? < 1267121393 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to move t, i, o, and = into a fingerprint (where they will be called T, I, O, and S, or similar,) and say that the semantics of t, i, o, and = are implementation-defined. < 1267121410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267121413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what? < 1267121423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, t is pretty well defined. And no one implements the error in t < 1267121435 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An implementation could make t, i, o, and = Funge-98 compatible. Or not. < 1267121435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that t doesn't move the child ip one step first < 1267121442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that t will be the first thing it executes < 1267121445 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't matter that it's well-defined < 1267121459 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's optional, that's the more important consideration. < 1267121467 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And optional things should go in fingerprints. < 1267121477 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Optional things like having two dimensions. < 1267121491 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That's not optional in *Be*funge. :) < 1267121494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I would like TIO to be well defined in that/those fingerprint(s). I'm happy with = being implementation-defined though < 1267121512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well duh for the last part) < 1267121515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the replacement for = would also be well-defined in a fingerprint. < 1267121524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, in what way? < 1267121535 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably refer to POSIX system(). < 1267121552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then these would need three different fingerprints at least. Maybe 4 < 1267121554 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, POSIX-dependent, but many OSes try to implement POSIX these days. < 1267121564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, efunge used to implement i but not o until recently < 1267121570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowdays it implements both < 1267121585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: could be a couple of different fingerprints. I'm not picky about that. < 1267121591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't implement t, since ATHR will be superior and actually be able to use both cores < 1267121628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the fingerprint implementing T would still change @ when loaded? < 1267121629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or? < 1267121645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since both @ and q seems odd if not < 1267121663 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, @ can be defined in such a way that its semantics don't change. < 1267121692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ removes the current execution context (EC). The program ends where there are no more ECs. < 1267121703 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore in single threaded Befunge, @ ends the program. < 1267121704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway moving t to T would break some programs that already use a fingerprint which defines T (and use that T). Without instruction moving as in FING that would be annoying < 1267121715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right < 1267121723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that causes havoc for ATHR < 1267121743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can have multiple ips from t in a single ATHR thread < 1267121752 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267121763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there can be multiple ATHR threads (of course) < 1267121781 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not familiar with FING, but if it allows moving assignments of A-Z around, it should probably be standard. Like "import foo as bar" in "normal" languages. < 1267121857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well what happens in your option if we have two fingerprints AAAA and BBBB. AAAA provides DE, BBBB provides EF. < 1267121857 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not clear on why the definition of @ I just gave causes havoc for ATHR, but I think it's much cleaner. < 1267121858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then: < 1267121868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we load AAAA, we load BBBB, we unload AAAA < 1267121872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now what is E mapped to < 1267121875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAA right? < 1267121895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the current de-facto standard < 1267121918 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to refresh on how fingerprint unloading is defined. < 1267121919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :treating it as "unload one instruction from each of the stacks, one stack for each of A, B, C, D, ..., Z < 1267121933 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you could only unload the most recently loaded. < 1267121938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well that exact detail (unloading out of order) is a bit unclear in the spec < 1267121959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not treating it the way I mentioned will break all kinds of havoc all over the place by now < 1267121969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267122013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :differences in how it was treated already caused issues before. But now that the major implementations agreed on this interpretation (and mycology tests that) it seems the best way to do it < 1267122059 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, well < 1267122062 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267122069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well? < 1267122078 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec is a mess wrt unloading so that makese sense < 1267122105 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure the intention was to only allow the last-loaded to be unloaded, but ) takes a fingerprint ID, sooooo..... < 1267122137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well a lot of programs use out of order unloading now. Well nowdays they seem to be switching to FING instead < 1267122147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1267122165 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you happen to have a link for the FING spec? < 1267122171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1267122180 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The spec also explicitly says that ) can unload a fingerprint "even if that fingerprint had never been loaded before". < 1267122184 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googles FING for kicks < 1267122187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FING < 1267122192 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Thanks < 1267122197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not the most detailed spec of course < 1267122206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed < 1267122226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's even the improved FING. < 1267122233 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, yeah, that's not terribly informative < 1267122243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well the bad one was called FNGR < 1267122252 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, well < 1267122267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway here is how Deewiant, me and some other people interpret things: < 1267122276 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm very tempted to establish some new semantics for ( and ) which are better but break minimally < 1267122276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one stack of function pointers (or lambdas or whatever) per A,B,C,...,Z < 1267122278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but I think even the FING spec got some of those corner-case empty-stack clarifications later on. < 1267122282 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FNGR's fixed to comply with the specs, by making it highly untame < 1267122292 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what's the term < 1267122306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, fingerprints push function pointers on these stacks (depending on which ones it define) < 1267122309 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: BLOODTHIRSTY. < 1267122314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: (I guess you mean "feral".) < 1267122316 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically now says, "while FNGR's loaded use old broken RC/Funge semantics, while it isn't use Funge-98 / fixed RC/Funge semantics" < 1267122317 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes < 1267122320 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it < 1267122342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, unloading a given fingerprint just pops the top function pointer (or lambda or whatever) from the stacks for the instructions it implement < 1267122369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot uses FING nowadays, but it used to use FNGR because FNGR was the first fingerprint-remapping fingerprint I came across. < 1267122369 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: these unique items make us invincible! < 1267122388 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: Yes, I'm sure FING makes you invincible. Sigh. < 1267122389 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: like, thanks princess. i'll take that under advisement!!! i give you 1 weapon or 1 item! what you do? wake you, but need dactyl? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. < 1267122392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so given the above example: "AAAA provides DE, BBBB provides EF", then we execute >"AAAA"4("BBBB"4("AAAA"4) now E is from AAAA and F from BBBB < 1267122399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is nothing on D any more < 1267122399 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That bot is sometimes so insulting. < 1267122401 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267122403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, does that make sense? < 1267122427 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that makes sense. < 1267122442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further it is useful < 1267122463 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That *might* be what was meant, in the spec, tho I'm not at all convinced of that. < 1267122465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so I recommend that if befunge-111 isn't about to break everything, that it should use these above mentioned semantics for ( and ) < 1267122493 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh, pushed back to 2011 already? < 1267122497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, a lot of people (including me) would become rather irritated by having to rewrite code to change it. Sometimes quite a lot of code < 1267122498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The semantic stack stuff seems to be the de-facto interpretation. < 1267122504 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I agree. But I'm considering adding something like: "If the fingerprint ends with '.', it is a new-style fingerprint and ( behaves slightly differently..." < 1267122506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, a different one altogether < 1267122509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave up on mine < 1267122511 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267122511 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think even I did fingerprints like that in GLfunge98. < 1267122513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey is considering it < 1267122516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he called it that < 1267122528 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-108 was just clarifications, wasn't it? < 1267122532 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of all the ambiguities in the spec? < 1267122536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wonderfully complex. But what would the new semantics then? < 1267122539 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's mainly that the number 111 is much cooler than 110. :) < 1267122544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes but the result was suboptimal < 1267122548 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: agreed < 1267122550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you should wait to 666 then < 1267122557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1267122566 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec explicitly allows for unloading things that haven't been loaded yet < 1267122572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what Deewiant said < 1267122579 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: cpressey: The spec also explicitly says that ) can unload a fingerprint "even if that fingerprint had never been loaded before". < 1267122584 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: You're a bit derivative! < 1267122593 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fizzie: Yes, that's bizarre. < 1267122609 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't that for NULL to work correctly? < 1267122610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what would the new semantics be for ( and ) though < 1267122611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Perhaps even integral. < 1267122611 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that suggests the spec intended something similar to the defacto behaviour that's out there < 1267122639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, augh < 1267122651 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not sure yet. Not sure if it needs them, now. But I was thinking something about support for renaming semantics like FING does. < 1267122651 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Right, I wasn't reading context, just AnMaster's highlight and a line or few up < 1267122672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hey don't do that. ehird always complains when I do that < 1267122686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, never mind that he does it himself sometimes < 1267122701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I have to get out and clear away the snow < 1267122723 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not ehird < 1267122735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and? < 1267122747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed the joke completely < 1267122756 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just seemed like you didn't feel about it very strongly yourself < 1267122758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway: I'll be back in an hour or so (hopefully, it has snowed quite a lot though...) < 1267122764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't < 1267122799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh, gitweb's commitdiff display isn't very befunge-friendly; it's far too line-oriented. < 1267122803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hm. well I'll read any interesting scrollback (assuming it isn't too long and we don't have concurrent convos in it) when I get back < 1267122816 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 'K, have fun in the snow :) < 1267122821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, file a feature request! < 1267122829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, .... I have started to hate it < 1267122842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/commitdiff/2d306563bb6d998d208c78d6400168b0ef633ae7 changes (incidentally) from FNGR to FING, but the changes are not so very clear. < 1267122842 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's statue before my shift. i hate! ayla not like... < 1267122850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it has been the snowiest and coldest winter for over 100 years according to SMHI < 1267122870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(SMHI is something like gov weather agency thingy, not sure what your equiv is over there) < 1267122890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1267122914 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Over here it's only the coldest it's been in 20-30 years or so < 1267122936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although in snow amount, I think it was around 50; I can't remember exactly < 1267123182 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish meteorological institute reported (in a Feb 18 newspost) that this is in the top-10 of coldest winters for the last 50 years, but not significantly colder than winter 2002-2003. Possibly they have had to update that, though, since it's continued to be cold. < 1267123976 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267124498 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267124588 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267124799 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267125526 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267125611 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1267126727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that... < 1267126729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was heavy < 1267126771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think this was for mid-Sweden < 1267126788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the north parts had worse years more recently < 1267126806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and definitely some temp records earlier < 1267126862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it was both coldest "average" and coldest (record for a specific time) in these parts for a long time. the record lowest was "last 30 years" or so. < 1267126886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while the average coldest and snowiest were for "over 100 years" < 1267126908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, last weekend was much worse than this evening < 1267127386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so what would the moved toi= be used for now? < 1267127413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey your idea of something like FING? < 1267127442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or something else? < 1267127569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh and I think allowing some fingerprints to have special opaque values pushed on stack that can be duplicated copied and so on as normal but perhaps not output or used in stuff like addition/subtraction may be nice < 1267127579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course this should be completely optional for the core language < 1267127596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any fingerprint trying to do that currently would give something extremely feral < 1267127607 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not sure I understand -- the new t, o, i, = would be T, O, I, S in some fingerprint(s), their use would be essentially the same < 1267127619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And t, o, i, = would be undefined < 1267127660 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For opaque stack values, yes, I think that could be defined, somewhere between tame and feral, closer to tame. < 1267127668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, my main use case is to allow FPDP (double precision floating point fingerprint) to use values like {double,Value} instead of having to do what current implementations do (which is (in pseudo C) basically: union {cell, double}) < 1267127675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that make it clearer? < 1267127688 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267127688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it uses two cells for 32-bit funges < 1267127716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instructions like + could be defined to say "If the objects on the stack aren't both intvals, reflect (or undefined or something)." < 1267127734 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, ALL std instructions would have a clause like that. < 1267127750 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Popping any object that isn't an intval -> some behavior < 1267127751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not reflect. More useful would be: "fingerprint-defined and/or implementation-defined" < 1267127753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could reflect < 1267127762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it could also do something sensible for, say, floats < 1267127775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point with this is that the {double,Value} is much nicer than using various bit-syntax messing when implementing it in erlang < 1267127790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, :\$ and so on are well defined < 1267127792 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Leaving toi= undefined is annoying given that the rest of ASCII is all reserved ;-) < 1267127792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1267127814 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: the idea is that the implementer can choose to try to be -98 compatible, or no < 1267127815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and yes perhaps all std ones should < 1267127817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nice < 1267127830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, think along the lines of the rather detailed ATHR spec < 1267127849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and there MUST be a security considerations section *somewhere* in there ;P < 1267127855 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Won't there be incompatible changes? < 1267127882 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: only small ones, on the scale of the ones between 93 and 98, is the current plan < 1267127909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus moving tio= out to fingerprints < 1267127911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's still incompatible < 1267127924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure, but 98% of the befunge93 programs work in 98 < 1267127925 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not a fan of the idea of putting "do something sensible" in the spec. If your FP changes how + works, it's feral. < 1267127939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 1.99% of the remaining one just skipping SGML spaces is enough < 1267127954 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just seems a bit of a shame that there's a "hole" in the definedness of the ASCII instructions < 1267127955 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it's a small incompatibility which can be addressed by an implementation < 1267127957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 0.01% or so you have them depending on stuff like "f reflects" < 1267127994 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think there are 10000 Befunge-93 programs < 1267128008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, I have seen no ends of variations of hello world in it < 1267128038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, So allowing a fingerprint with opaque types to result in "fingerprint defined" behaviour might be a bad idea < 1267128040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1267128041 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not /that/ many < 1267128056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, of course not 10000 hello world! < 1267128060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some other programs < 1267128062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not a bad idea so much as a feral fingerprint... < 1267128068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, true < 1267128072 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but there are likely less than 100 programs in total :-P < 1267128079 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The strategy here is not so much to disallow things or discourage them as to give them names :) < 1267128083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no actually my guess is more around 200-300 programs < 1267128134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the list on http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/ is quite long. And I have seen quite a few programs elsewhere < 1267128139 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. "The semantics of executing a Funge character which is not listed in the "Instructions" section is not defined. The subset of Befunge-111 in which all of these characters have the semantics of the 'r' instruction is called _sober_." < 1267128139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah above 100 definitely < 1267128146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :less than 1000 probably < 1267128166 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267128174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, nice name for it < 1267128195 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Regardless, 0.01% == 0% < 1267128254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, okay. Well I have seen one programs I think that depended on f reflecting < 1267128268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :three or so that depended on non-SGML spaces < 1267128279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other ones worked < 1267128296 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology depends on 80x25 loading to detect Befunge-93 < 1267128309 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although not that insistently) < 1267128318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true, but these ones had .bf extension < 1267128321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not .b98 < 1267128383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, another use case for opaque values: {socket,Fileno} < 1267128398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, cfunge currently validates it against a list for SOCK < 1267128402 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Certain std instructions like swap should be handle opaque values, too. < 1267128420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly swap, dup, g and p definitely should < 1267128439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all those that just move the data around and don't care what it means < 1267128441 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oof, enforcing that'll be a pain < 1267128450 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With 32-bit funges that implement FPDP < 1267128466 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there was a way to "cast to boolean" then |_w and such could use them too. BUT, that gets into the domain of objects with methods. I shudder. < 1267128485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, an implementation would be free to do it either way for FPDP. I mean, it doesn't say either way < 1267128500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the fingerprint defined that "it must use opaque values", well then it would be clear < 1267128515 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this day and age of Unicode I think it's worth considering a way to load fingerprints into regions of characters > 127. < 1267128538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I'm likely to use this feature in efunge (as tagged tuples). I doubt it will ever happen in cfunge (since it optimises so heavily for plain integers) < 1267128561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and I agree, befunge should not be object oriented < 1267128595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh btw, cfunge will never gain unicode for file input. It would slow down file loading having to interpret utf-8 or whatever < 1267128602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge might < 1267128622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, utf8 with just libc will be a pain < 1267128641 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There would be no requirement to support it. But nothing stopping implementations from using it either. < 1267128657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and everything except POSIX.1-2001 + the mmap option are optional deps for cfunge < 1267128667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means NCRS is optional, since it needs ncurses < 1267128683 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could insist that utf-8 (or other) encoded files are converted to UCS-64(? or whatever it is with no compression) before loading < 1267128685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc Deewiant claimed he was able to read the spec as unicode input < 1267128696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UCS-64 XD < 1267128705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is UCS-4 which is 32-bit < 1267128710 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That doesn't help with using the high characters for anything other than ' and " < 1267128712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of UCS-64 < 1267128714 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er < 1267128714 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^ < 1267128719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, true < 1267128730 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, UCS-4 is UTF-32 < 1267128737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the spec says that implementations can do whatever they want above a certain limit < 1267128740 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267128741 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? Well, the 98 spec leaves enough undefined that it is mostly OK with unicode < 1267128745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it also iirc gives an uper limit < 1267128762 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it doesn't < 1267128766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Funge-98 source files are made up of Funge characters. The Funge-98 character set overlays the ASCII subset used by Befunge-93 and may have characters greater than 127 present in it (and greater than 255 on systems where characters are stored in multiple bytes; but no greater than 2,147,483,647.) " < 1267128768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure it does < 1267128770 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It claims there are no characters above 2,147,483,647 < 1267128771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267128774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, darn < 1267128780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267128783 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Completely forgot about that one < 1267128784 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it claims there are characters below 0 < 1267128788 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or allows < 1267128798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well, funge-space is signed < 1267128806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use signed 64 bit IO or something I guess < 1267128809 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, just map everything above 2^32-1 to a negative number ;-P < 1267128838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267128846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2^31-1 = 2,147,483,647 isn't it? < 1267128859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't look so random that limit after all < 1267128859 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, thinko < 1267128890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, a strange limit I agree < 1267128899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but quite esoteric in a certain way < 1267128927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just seems like Funge-98 was originally specced as 32-bit but then partially updated to allow any bittiness < 1267128947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1267128988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway for y I suggest the handprint field and such are left as undefined. Since there are plenty of programs that use hard coded offsets for anything up to "size of TOSS" < 1267129004 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, q might be deprecatable too, since it only makes sense in concurrent < 1267129019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, then it would have to be moved to the same fingerprint as t < 1267129019 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. Much of y will now be undefined, I think. < 1267129020 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't each cell capable of storing one funge number and isn't there instructions to dump part of program space into file and load such dump? < 1267129042 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Yes, i and o < 1267129068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not much. Just handprint, maybe version number, oh and = op paradigm I guess.., the beglad thingy < 1267129072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all isn't it? < 1267129074 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: That impression is correct, it went to "at least 32-bit" < 1267129099 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would imply that bignum funge need to have some way to represent bignums in dumps... < 1267129105 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, handprint and version number are inherently implementation-defined anyway :) < 1267129107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, not at all < 1267129113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, since it is dumped to plain text < 1267129127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is perfectly fine to do %256 < 1267129143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, that is what I do currently, otherwise it doesn't work even for a 32-bit funge < 1267129148 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or at least the new fingerprint for those instruction should say that) < 1267129164 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'd keep the handprint there, it's amusing if not useful < 1267129178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what about allowing #! starting line optionally? < 1267129202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, like #!/usr/bin/fbbi or possibly #!/bin/fbbi when funge becomes really popular! < 1267129215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI already implements that < 1267129220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267129220 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to user request < 1267129225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't that break stuff < 1267129235 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not enabled by default, only if you pass a switch < 1267129237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267129244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that works with no spec modification then < 1267129256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also strange user request < 1267129259 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, like most implementation-specific extensions :-P < 1267129274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can actually not imagine anyone would *request* such a feature like that < 1267129310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not :-P < 1267129333 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they wanted to write befunge CGIs < 1267129447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yeaaaah, no < 1267129480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway team id could be nice to exploit in a future extension to ATHR to allow multiple erlang nodes as well < 1267129483 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :executing #!/ would result in a division by zero, which could be handled specially :) < 1267129498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with async update of funge space to actually not make it completely grind to halt of course < 1267129550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so each would have a local copy and updates would be sent over infiband or such < 1267129552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267129554 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, one char which isn't reserved by Funge-98 is tab, maybe you could use that for something amusing < 1267129561 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Division by zero is well-defined in Funge-98 < 1267129576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tab = 4 spaces wide! < 1267129585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course scarf isn't here < 1267129593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't he prefer mixed indention iirc < 1267129594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Pushes 4 spaces on stack? ;-P < 1267129608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, that depends on preferred tab width < 1267129611 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just "pushes an implementation-defined number of spaces on stack" < 1267129615 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: and the number of programs that rely on it producing a zero when division by zero occurs as the second instruction of the program is ... ? < 1267129626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw iirc ehird said he wanted an n-dimensional funge < 1267129627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1267129632 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: At least 2, Mycology included < 1267129635 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nefunge < 1267129641 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, well not as the second instruction < 1267129642 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was the name of that experiment < 1267129649 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(n-dimensional) < 1267129653 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least 1, for that < 1267129677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, one that isn't restricted and where a program can go into any dímension it wants < 1267129679 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, it wasn't a very serious suggestion anyway. < 1267129679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dimension* < 1267129694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so vector length would have to have some different handling for it < 1267129700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should probably be a fungoid though < 1267129723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with something like ",...,z,y,x" < 1267129724 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it was considered at one point in the late 90s. No one worked much on it < 1267129741 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267129768 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vectors become more like hash tables (x: 3, y: 3, z: 3, d4: 3, d5: 3, ...) < 1267129785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I optimise too much for just two dimensions in cfunge for anything except exactly two dimensions to be viable without a lot of work, and in efunge, well, it would require some work, not quite as much though < 1267129857 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267129862 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267129926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(an explanation may be in order btw: Order of importance for features in cfunge: correctness, speed, extensibility. For efunge: correctness, extensibility, speed) < 1267129966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, speed is nice in efunge but not a primary goal. For cfunge speed is more important than everything else except following the spec < 1267130014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and not crashing on any input of course, OOM is somewhat excused from that) < 1267130132 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean by extensibility, exactly? < 1267130163 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For CCBI I'd say it's: correctness, fingerprint/extension support, speed < 1267130179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "being able to do things like ATHR and what not without going insane" < 1267130205 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no TRDS? ;-P < 1267130207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it is designed with things like ATHR and the better MVRS we considered in mind. < 1267130221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think that might be possible perhaps. I won't do it though < 1267130224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but feel free to do it < 1267130239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think it is nearly impossible when combined with ATHR though < 1267130245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there are no single ticks any more < 1267130249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with async threads < 1267130287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and any command would take some time to register in other threads < 1267130318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, stuff like IIPC would be possible in theory definitely, if you allow that things might not happen straight away in the other threads < 1267130329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and IIPC at least need a way to break deadlocks < 1267130340 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267130364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so basically, when going for ATHR I made TRDS virtually impossible < 1267130384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you agree with that? < 1267130391 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Baah, I'm sure CCBI2 can manage both ;-) < 1267130399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, both used at once? < 1267130408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, remember the ATHR spec is still somewhat in flux < 1267130410 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might as well < 1267130426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have figured out that some stuff didn't work at all and such < 1267130443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the core parts (not the books thing) is mostly well defined by now < 1267130491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some parts works, there are test cases for most for a single thread and a few for multiple threads (they are partly UNDEF due to timing issues) < 1267130651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, pushed an update to one of the test cases for ATHR < 1267130742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway since the ATHR threads do not run synced it would be impossible to determine when a certain tick happened. After all they one thread might be in the middle of executing tick 240, while another is just about to start at tick 259 < 1267130771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and the locking in D will be fun. Does it have a pthreads interface or how is it done? < 1267130796 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The runtime implements threads and fibers and whatever < 1267130810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and thread safe hash tables? < 1267130812 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I could bind to pthreads but no reason t o < 1267130814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to* < 1267130829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in fact: plenty of reasons *not* to < 1267130839 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You mean thread-safe Funge-Space? Probably will have to lock < 1267130885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, it doesn't have to be safe w.r.t. non-atomic CAS (like funge code emulating a CAS). And ATHR is defined such that the CAS it provides is only safe against the G and P it provides < 1267130892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is required because erlang has no true CAS < 1267130896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being message oriented < 1267130921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doing every write through a gen_server would be slow < 1267130952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus, it uses public ets table normally (erlang internally does some locking as required here) < 1267130960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only serialises it for ATHR CAS < 1267130966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and it's G/P) < 1267130980 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you give a negative value as the iteration count for k? < 1267130992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well. that's one of the UNDEFs in mycology < 1267130999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, iirc cfunge and CCBI does different things < 1267131010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think cfunge reflects and CCBI takes the absolute value < 1267131013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1267131025 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they both reflect < 1267131028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, mind you, k currently is unable to execute exactly one iteration < 1267131035 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology just tests for absolute value taking < 1267131051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, based on stuff you previously said/wrote iirc < 1267131079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, as in 0kab pushes b. 1kab pushes aab < 1267131080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267131093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you better explain the mess he caused and why < 1267131097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the details < 1267131097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267131127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember the details either < 1267131132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1267131141 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, k doesn't move past what it executes unless the iteration count is 0 < 1267131145 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember why < 1267131147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1267131148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was it < 1267131159 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267131161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway that means that just executing it's instruction once is impossible < 1267131166 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1267131204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, didn't Mike Riley dig up some old cats-eye test suite or something? < 1267131208 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some issue with all ways of doing it < 1267131214 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it may have been because of that < 1267131220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I think so < 1267131232 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k is so dumb < 1267131247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, k is quite useful actually for some things < 1267131251 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should probably be popping the instruction off the stack instead of getting it from the path < 1267131275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that would help for nested k < 1267131276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1267131282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>22kk^ < 1267131293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, tell me where that one goes up < 1267131309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION watches cpressey's head explode < 1267131324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway changing k that way *now* is sure to break things < 1267131340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since people actually use k outside test suites < 1267131375 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please don't mess with k, I'll have to go through mycotrds again :-) < 1267131382 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267131383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you use it there? < 1267131386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poor you < 1267131404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, changing it now would break sooo much < 1267131421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps it should be done for the 1k case < 1267131423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it works < 1267131431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure. < 1267131438 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 2k executes three times but 1k once? :-P < 1267131462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no, so that 2k executes 2 times and so on... ;P < 1267131498 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are still some strangenesses even with that < 1267131505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly when using strange instructions with k < 1267131510 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember what < 1267131510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway I think perhaps there was just a bug in that cats eye test suite < 1267131519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might explain why I never found it elsewhere < 1267131533 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, >22kk^ ? < 1267131536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and yes there are some issues with where k^ goes up and so < 1267131539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep < 1267131543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, figure that out < 1267131574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or why not >12345kkj abcdefg < 1267131576 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the first k < 1267131579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that ones looks even funnier < 1267131582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wait, what? < 1267131594 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where it goes up" - maybe I don't understand? < 1267131616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so everything for nested k executes on the first k? < 1267131633 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267131662 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You probably meant something like >22kk^^^^^^^^^ < 1267131675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or did you? < 1267131678 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: k executes in one tick < 1267131682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that doesn't cause any other issues < 1267131688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yes. But at which location < 1267131694 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think in CCBI it'll go past the first ^ ;-P < 1267131703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, strange < 1267131706 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? Where the instruction is, of course ? < 1267131716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so what does: >12345kkj abcdefg do= < 1267131719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/?/ < 1267131727 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: At least, if you put more stuff on the stack; 222kk (since the inner k is executed twice and thus pops two things) < 1267131736 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jumps far to the right... < 1267131743 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 20 cells < 1267131759 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand the argument that we couldn't understand something more intelligent than us < 1267131769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so it keeps executing j even after the first iteration of the outer k? < 1267131771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, like 4+3+2+1 cells I guess < 1267131772 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he says a goldfish couldn't understand us, just like we couldn't understand AI < 1267131779 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1267131784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, notice that there are two k:s there < 1267131785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nested < 1267131785 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's just an analogy.... what's the justification < 1267131785 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: After the first j, the IP's position will have changed and the inner k sees a different instruction < 1267131806 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: the tick hasn't expired yet, so the IP hasn't moved < 1267131811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267131820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that's an interesting way of looking at it < 1267131825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so you mean the jump move is only applied after the tick is done? < 1267131833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh < 1267131847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will be like impossible to change to in cfunge < 1267131848 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An instruction is executed by an IP every tick. The IP executed is the one at the current position of the IP. Only after that does the IP moves by its delta to a new position. " < 1267131865 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But it's not moving by its delta here < 1267131868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267131869 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure the 1st IP in the 2nd sentence meant to be "instruction" there < 1267131875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is being forced ahead < 1267131894 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: E.g. the # instruction: "moves the IP one position beyond the next Funge-Space cell in its path" < 1267131908 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think "by its delta" was meant to be prescriptive. the point was that it moves < 1267131912 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not after the tick; "moves the IP", i.e. right now < 1267131923 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267131926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets the popcorn for this one < 1267131927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I meant that it's not the normal every-tick move, it's an additional move induced by an instruction < 1267131946 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you interpret it like that, k has different and interesting semantics, yes. < 1267131958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep, and I think that is what everyone done so far < 1267131965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which caused quite a lot of issues with k < 1267131971 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"reasoning by analogy" seems like a flaw < 1267131972 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't interpret it like that you'll be breaking a lot of Concurrent Funge-98 programs as well ;-) < 1267131992 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so k will be undefined too. < 1267131999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1267132003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that is going too far < 1267132018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought we were defining the undefineds ;-) < 1267132023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267132029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k isn't optional < 1267132046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm okay with tio= being handled these way < 1267132065 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm okay with them because you need to ask y whether they're available anyway < 1267132067 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then define it in a way that doesn't break any programs. < 1267132084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, almost impossible, and I'm okay with breaking some programs < 1267132089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the undef parts < 1267132094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not too many < 1267132108 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just keep it as it is now and say something about nested k < 1267132110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call it path of least issues maybe < 1267132119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the issue with 1k though... < 1267132122 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"something" < 1267132143 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could just disallow nested k. I doubt anyone uses it < 1267132147 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, I prefer my interpretation ;-) < 1267132152 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't mind that < 1267132170 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want, define negative arguments as executing exactly that many times ;-) < 1267132192 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. for n < 0, k executes the instruction |n|-1 times and doesn't move past it < 1267132203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, take a look at http://sprunge.us/MbCj?c (cfunge's k implementation) < 1267132234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, for nested k I think ccbi does something quite different < 1267132237 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Special-casing kk? Tut, tut. :-P < 1267132242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yep < 1267132250 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI does exactly nothing, it just executes it as normal < 1267132259 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which leads to rather unintuitive semantics < 1267132260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that didn't work out though < 1267132263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, exactly < 1267132268 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it works out < 1267132269 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what does it do instead of moving past it? Act like # < 1267132271 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just not intuitive :-P < 1267132304 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I mean it moves into it. It moves past the k into the instruction. Just like what k does now with positive arguments < 1267132322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: So, you'd change the semantics for positive count? < 1267132338 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, for negative < 1267132367 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currently for positive: k executes n times, then moves into the instruction it just executed, thus executing it one more time come next tick < 1267132382 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence 1k has the net effect of executing twice < 1267132386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh that is a good idea < 1267132398 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My proposal: for negative, execute |n|-1 times, otherwise behave the same. < 1267132399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for negative counts define it to execute and skip over < 1267132415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that's brilliant < 1267132417 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or |n| and skip over, whatever < 1267132421 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Oh, I thought you were proposing something that would allow you to execute the instruction exactly 0 times < 1267132425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer |n|-1 and not skip < 1267132429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh, 0k does that < 1267132431 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's what 0k does < 1267132437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I think it was specced somewhere < 1267132438 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0k is like # < 1267132441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267132444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was it < 1267132445 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, explicitly specced < 1267132461 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I thought that was the problem, that 0kX executed X once < 1267132470 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it follows 0k < 1267132473 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, 0k executes zero times < 1267132475 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1k executes twice < 1267132476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, no the issue is that 1kX executes X twice < 1267132484 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that there is no way of executing once < 1267132487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1267132492 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ok. < 1267132516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, defining the negatives would do it < 1267132519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, still pretty similar issue. Just somewhat more wtfy < 1267132520 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then that mostly makes sense. < 1267132521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267132527 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My proposal is just general: alternatively all negatives could execute once, if you prefer :-P < 1267132537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, nested k is a nested can of worms < 1267132554 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm pretty sure nested k should just go undefined. < 1267132555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're so negative ;-P < 1267132561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hah < 1267132574 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Pun actually not intended) < 1267132584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suuuuuuure... < 1267132599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realized it at about the same time as you responded < 1267132625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the negative = once, would be somewhat harder to use, not that that is necessarily a bad thing. < 1267132658 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figure the issue is just that you know you're going to hit a k at some point, but you'd like to execute only once < 1267132658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor is it automatically a good thing I think < 1267132662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since this is *NOT* intercal < 1267132910 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the behaviour of ># X Y to execute both X and Y, or just Y? < 1267132910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, I was at the painful end of a static discharge.... against a plastic surface < 1267132914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how could that even happen < 1267132925 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the static is revolting. < 1267132932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, eh? < 1267132933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1267132936 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the great electron uprising you know < 1267132940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267132952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, anyway it would execute X and Y, alternatively break lots of things < 1267132962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. I was pretty sure it skipped X. OK. < 1267132964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, probably few programs use it < 1267132972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well you told us before it didn't < 1267132977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have your mail around still < 1267132991 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes sense, I was misremembering. < 1267133008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it does? < 1267133038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what email do you use? so I can search for it < 1267133048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait never mind < 1267133055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found a folder called "funge" < 1267133061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be related < 1267133091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm the mail is not there < 1267133092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1267133162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to be some funge stuff in "other" and "misc" and "assorted" too < 1267133176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really should come up with a saner organisation for my email < 1267133178 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: # says "funge-space cell" not "instruction" < 1267133194 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as implementations go, it's about 50/50. Mycology aborts early on if that executes only Y. < 1267133202 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: gmail, for several years < 1267133210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found the mail < 1267133287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then due to what Deewiant said it doesn't apply actually < 1267133322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, the relevant section was: http://pastebin.ca/1810777 < 1267133352 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k does say "next instruction". < 1267133407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267133416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes that a non-issue :) < 1267133424 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might be why I was thnking that < 1267133508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, fungot and mycology are the largest befunge98 apps I know of < 1267133509 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i must ponder this turn of events, it can have a powerful effect on time. ask the one to bring back lost loved ones... it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. < 1267133525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up ;P < 1267133536 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot isn't that big is it? < 1267133537 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: we are looking to achieve a shorter life span... lavos will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place... < 1267133550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(who would want to toast their own land) < 1267133563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "we are looking to achieve a shorter life span" is pretty funny < 1267133572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot where it came from < 1267133579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie explained it before < 1267133594 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something like "go there only if you are looking to achieve a shorter live span" < 1267133606 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :life* < 1267133717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267133754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the befunge turt quine is another semi-major app < 1267133763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/app/program/ < 1267133771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there are a number of smaller testing programs < 1267133805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I wrote maybe 20 or 30 "would have fitted into 93 with some work" sized programs to test bugs and what not < 1267133832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was that mine sweeper game in 98 that I never finished < 1267134070 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, I don't see why you wouldn't want to write CGIs in Befunge... < 1267134076 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: 2 hour UPS expired. Shutting down laptop. < 1267134126 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/fbbi/eg/cgi.b98.cgi was supposed to be one < 1267134187 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my current host, I'd need an interpreter written in PHP though < 1267134308 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently fbbi supports -script to interpret the hashbang line < 1267134331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267134402 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, CCBI might've picked it up from there then < 1267134487 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love when I can say "apparently" about stuff I've done < 1267135300 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-235-220.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267135385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1267136596 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267136757 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tia sez: gbhhhh < 1267136801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tia maria < 1267137563 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267138614 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267139802 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267139829 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267140024 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should check to see if PSOX works on Windows at some point < 1267140305 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not. < 1267140343 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267140346 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to < 1267140357 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens, exactly? < 1267140370 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, after the bug in whatchamacallit, the easter egg, is fixed < 1267140494 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I just assumed it didn't because nothing ever works on Windows. < 1267140508 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like I ever use Windows. < 1267142343 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267142581 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267143740 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267146660 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267147228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267147357 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267147617 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267147719 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267148453 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267148545 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267148978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267149023 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267149234 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1267150083 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267151128 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267154531 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1267156194 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-173-235.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267156313 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267156509 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267156567 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-71-191-173-96.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267157393 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267157777 0 :bsmntbombdood__!~gavin@97-118-213-9.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267157928 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267158903 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1267159212 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-48-220-230.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267160134 0 :bsmntbombdood__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1267160413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267160613 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267160797 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267160859 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see the note about INTERCAL in the topic message. But what I know, is, P.D.Q. Bach is the INTERCAL of Baroque music. But it doesn't help much unless you know about both INTERCAL and about P.D.Q. Bach. < 1267161596 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try to figure out how to add natural numbers represented as sets < 1267161698 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I am still also trying to figure out how to write a program in Hyper Set Language that produces a set of all non-halting programs < 1267162498 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267162731 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267162778 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo bitches < 1267162823 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1267163052 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have looking up things about set theory on Wikipedia, today. < 1267163091 0 :kwertii_!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267163243 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267163243 0 :kwertii_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :kwertii < 1267163282 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the old Russell's paradox set in Hyper Set Language was wrong, I fixed it now, hopefully this way is actually Russell's paradox for real, this time: Russell={[0.#;1.0]/(element_of/(#.#))}\*; < 1267163317 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where element_of={[<#]&>#;not/(not/@)}; < 1267163332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not=({0}!(0.0))|(0.1); < 1267163636 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267164186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you should help work on the formal grammars pages. :D < 1267165177 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What formal grammars pages did you mean? < 1267165243 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I looked at the article about fuzzy sets, and now it allowed me to think of something else, which is, quantum fuzzy sets (the probabilities can be entangled). < 1267165341 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://toolserver.org/~soxred93/pages/index.php?name=Augur&namespace=0&redirects=noredirects < 1267165375 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the ones i created recently, i also modified the TAG, CCG, and Indexed Grammar pages < 1267165388 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should contribute some stuff regarding some other formalisms < 1267165481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which ones should I contribute? < 1267165492 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything you want! < 1267165496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just not controlled grammars < 1267165500 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since im working on that page < 1267165501 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267165507 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1267165524 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I don't know enough about formal grammars to write a Wikipedia article < 1267165755 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah! PHP works now on Hackiki. < 1267165822 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats ok, zzo38, its a opportunity to LEARN about them. :D < 1267165854 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes, I can learn about formal grammar from what is already written on Wikipedia < 1267165855 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rates xkcd on WOT as being not particularly child friendly < 1267165870 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "WOT" means < 1267165884 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: no no, i mean, you can find some reference to some formalism on wikipedia that isnt property explained, or given thorough examples, or whatever < 1267165884 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Web of Trust < 1267165887 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mywot.com < 1267165890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you can go research them, etc. < 1267165905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what im doing for the categorial minimalism stuff, and for the control grammar stuff < 1267165923 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1267165926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you just go through doing that. if you find some reference in a paper or book to some formalism you havent heard of ever, check to see if its on wiki < 1267165931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, go find info about it and put it up < 1267166042 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's something about Reddit that my computer doesn't like < 1267166043 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267166053 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok im going to play some wipeout < 1267166104 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm on Hackiki now < 1267166108 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: zzo38 < 1267166177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redbull is THE official drink of the early Wipeout games. :D < 1267166182 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i like redbull or anything but < 1267166639 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267166745 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267166972 0 :adu_!~ajr@pool-173-66-14-213.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267167054 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267167397 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should not be on the computer right now < 1267167402 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should be sleeping < 1267167433 0 :adu_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu_ < 1267167545 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1267167882 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-155-77-28.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267167959 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267168229 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: good night < 1267169013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i shouldnt be sleeping < 1267169013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267169941 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1267171199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267171200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267171412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ive invented fun little variant of the lambda calculus which isnt usable as a mode of computation but which is useful in constructing interesting representations of meaning :T < 1267172389 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267174078 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267174757 0 :scarf!~scarf@147.188.254.58 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267174761 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267174761 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267174997 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC is a child molester -> http://silverex.net/news <- i couldn't change my quit message < 1267176158 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267176163 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267176802 0 :SHAXMAT!~opera@188.113.192.19 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267177116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267177194 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267177378 0 :SHAXMAT!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267178668 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-192-244.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267179313 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267179344 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267181931 0 :scarf_!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267182055 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267182502 0 :scarf_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :scarf < 1267182516 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1267182519 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267182952 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267185297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267185346 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267186368 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1267187417 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267187426 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267187431 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-213-9.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267187672 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267187855 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267187905 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267187929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I see the note about INTERCAL in the topic message. But what I know, is, P.D.Q. Bach is the INTERCAL of Baroque music. But it doesn't help much unless you know about both INTERCAL and about P.D.Q. Bach. < 1267187951 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um there is a major distinction: INTERCAL actually _exists_. < 1267187966 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: on the forum where that was originally posted, it made sense to assume that I Wanna Be The Guy would be well-known to people who viewed it < 1267188002 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I Wanna Be The Guy _also_ exists, i believe < 1267188020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i had heard of it (on this channel), so... < 1267188026 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does exist < 1267188052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am referring to P.D.Q. Bach, who regretfully doesn't (and never did). < 1267188096 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267188122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i would bet that we have a better fit to that on the wiki. any of the Lesser Known languages, say < 1267188207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly existence of persons and existence of programming languages may not be quite directly comparable. < 1267188493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267189915 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267192986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267194251 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267196966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any esolang where writing tac would be easier than writing cat? < 1267196988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in case you don't know, tac is like cat but reverses the order of the lines) < 1267197013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, know any such esolang? < 1267197633 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any stack-based one with only line-based I/O, presumably < 1267198050 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267198644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If INTERCAL's the PDQ Bach, which one's the Victor Borge? < 1267198778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how so? tac doesn't reverse the stuff inside a given line < 1267198784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only reverses the order of lines < 1267198799 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Thus the restriction for line-based I/O < 1267198816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed, but still it would be as simple as doing one read then one write and so on < 1267198818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I guess it's still easier to print them out as they come in < 1267198818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after each other < 1267198820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1267198844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that is not a valid answer to my question then < 1267198909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It mightn't've been in any case, if no such language exists < 1267198940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err "mightn't've"? < 1267198952 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might not have < 1267198954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267199755 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cyclexa would be like that if not for a hack that meant that both ways were equally easy < 1267200187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, hm *looks* < 1267200199 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing to look at < 1267200204 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it treats memory as a stack < 1267200210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, no wiki page? < 1267200223 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, vapourware < 1267200236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, describe it then, since you obviously know about it < 1267200261 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: think stupidly generalised regex < 1267200273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhu < 1267200281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't quite imagine what that means < 1267202425 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It matches things besides strings? Pointers, dogs, bicycles, trampolines, caves, ideologies, chuck steak...? < 1267202502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kicks it up 1.125 notches < 1267202530 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/BA(M*)!/ < 1267202607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that FILE is too C-dependant < 1267202627 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well, think of "B" in a regex as meaning "if the current string starts with B, remove it; otherwise fail" < 1267202628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how to implement all of r, w, a, r+, w+, a+ in erlang < 1267202632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some I can do < 1267202636 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what it means in Cyclexa < 1267202644 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, B^ means "add a B to the start of the current string" < 1267202647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some I'm unsure what the hell the distinction is supposed to be < 1267202721 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Sounds kind of like the regex version of an unrestricted grammar (or relatively unrestricted) < 1267202786 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not sure what the a means (I thought + meant append) but I thought the rest were supported (Erlang used to even use the same chars as C, but they changed it at some point) < 1267202806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it seems related to positioning of the stream < 1267202810 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: + means both readable and writable < 1267202824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, but then why not rw < 1267202830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why is there r+ and w+ < 1267202831 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and r positions at start, w truncates the file then there's only one position, a positions at end < 1267202837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't they be eqiv then? < 1267202840 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1267202846 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r+ lets you read from the start, or write at the start < 1267202853 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w+ truncates the file < 1267202860 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after writing to it, you can read back what you just read < 1267202863 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay C. < 1267202865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that is tricky, I need to manually emulate w+ I think < 1267202905 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267202944 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*read back what you just wrote < 1267202944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've yet to run into a non-eso language that doesn't support those six modes trivially < 1267202954 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: VHDL? < 1267202964 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, hello world is awful in VHDL < 1267202988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well there is no "read+write+truncate", I need to do some manual truncate after for that mode < 1267202995 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's not really a programming language < 1267202997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology test all 5 modes or just some? < 1267203007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: what a weird statement < 1267203010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just one or two I think < 1267203021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how irritating :P < 1267203022 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just not intended to program computers, which is why it's so different < 1267203025 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Well, I haven't used it < 1267203037 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah < 1267203052 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/eso/eso computer programming/ < 1267203070 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why programming should be restricted to computer programming in general, though < 1267203086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in general, but in the context of file I/O... < 1267203098 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, OK < 1267203117 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, you could just say that freestanding C has no file I/O at all unless it's in a nonstandard library < 1267203860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION builds a "Hello World" circuit on his breadboard < 1267203893 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's a battery, two wires, and a lamp.) < 1267204153 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267204804 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267205141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, interesting mycology result on half-implemented FILE: < 1267205150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: 00S reflected < 1267205150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: closed file with C < 1267205150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: reopened file in append+read mode < 1267205154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that loops forever < 1267205157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :until ctrl-c < 1267205158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those lines < 1267205174 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Whoops" < 1267205281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, I'm just curious how it could happen. I assume you don't care about "fixing" it to error out more gracefully, but if you did, here is the output showing which ones are implemented: < 1267205296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/jjKh < 1267205305 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably just the S error handler goes to the wrong place < 1267205346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right, a trace is really painful here. Should be possible to spot it by reading the code if it is as simple as that though < 1267205359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to implement L < 1267205388 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267205511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm interesting API < 1267205538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :file:position(IoDev, cur) to set the possition to the current one and get the current abs position < 1267205546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically a no-change to read current < 1267205638 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267205656 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267205722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tell me if you want me to test any fixed version, preferably before I implement S. < 1267205726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is soon < 1267205744 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can easily break it in a local CCBI < 1267205771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267205774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need then < 1267205837 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1267205896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is FILE byte based or unicode based? < 1267205908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this poll also goes to fizzie < 1267205922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess unicode might break fungot's use of FILE < 1267205922 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: these unique items make us invincible! but you are true heros. the world, tee, hee! it's not the only one thing we need to defeat you, lavos. < 1267205951 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The spec says < 1267206045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1267206075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology test that? < 1267206084 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267206084 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267206085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not < 1267206091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^irc < 1267206093 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it just wrote text, not binary < 1267206097 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style irc < 1267206097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267206097 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) < 1267206108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, testing value above 255 would be a good idea < 1267206116 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was getting sick of that game < 1267206118 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's UNDEF < 1267206126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267206127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Functions W and R write cells as bytes, any cells containing values greater than 255 will have the top bits stripped. " < 1267206134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FILE < 1267206144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so doesn't look undef to me < 1267206146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, darn < 1267206153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, unless he added that after < 1267206158 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He did < 1267206160 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway < 1267206181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that operation is somewhat confusing < 1267206191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't modulo 256 is it? < 1267206204 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is < 1267206208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267206216 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says nothing about negative numbers though :-P < 1267206223 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need a special bit stripper to properly strip off the "top bits". < 1267206330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, har < 1267206340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well lets assume something for them -_- < 1267206697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's that thing about FILE that you got negative values for bytes >= 128 on some interpreter. < 1267206714 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot only uses values in the [0, 127] range, doing multibyte values in a base-128 sort of way. < 1267206715 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that's simple to understand. :p fnord/ news/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord, that is). < 1267206773 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What interpreter is fungot running on? < 1267206774 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: even bawden rees point out in the third argument to dynamic-wind calls a continuation from outside the environment itself... < 1267206802 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: last I heard it was cfunge, and before that rc/funge < 1267206805 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure < 1267207031 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what I heard too < 1267207334 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it matter that the rcfunge homepage doesnt say what rcfunge is for? < 1267207379 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has the manuals, which do say < 1267207609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267207681 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amca: that's typical of the rc/funge documentaion < 1267207684 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*documentation < 1267207719 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, fungot started on RC/Funge, then migrated to cfunge. < 1267207720 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i cannot see where are the logs? where is the middot? can't find it with a spoon for far too long. you can't. scheme is a language of stuff like that < 1267207728 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION found the website confusing < 1267207785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/commitdiff/75359446b1d88ef6644b88f3fa879d2f8d683592 was needed to make it work on cfunge. < 1267207786 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: scroll down to the mit scheme repl does indeed provide hooks for customizing the printer, but it's not r5rs < 1267207866 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-53-123.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267207875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is my FILE G in cfunge so complex < 1267207877 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267207895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it tries to emulate fgets() but treating all of \r \n \r\n as newlines < 1267207896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1267207918 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was some difference on how STRN's L/R worked in the corner case of requesting more characters than the length of the string itself. < 1267207965 0 :sebbu3!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-53-123.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267207978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe < 1267208000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efunge can't yet run it < 1267208017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to missing SOCK and FING and STRN < 1267208063 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec now specifies that L/R with more than the number of chars should return the full string, but I think cfunge instead reflects; it was some sort of theological argument about the immutability of specifications there. < 1267208063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not implementing FILE because of it, but to avoid having to do rm myco*.tmp < 1267208069 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267208071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a few mycology runs < 1267208091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, s/theological/philosophical/ < 1267208112 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just used to do 'ccbi mycology.b98; rm -f *.tmp' < 1267208121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure but still < 1267208218 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267208272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now why the hell do I have pop_gnirts, push_list and push_gnirtses in efunge... < 1267208287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for push_list I would need to reverse it < 1267208483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :push_gnirts(Stack, String) -> < 1267208484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : lists:reverse(String, [0|Stack]). < 1267208494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that is a wonderful implementation < 1267208497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agree cpressey? < 1267208535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also *watches confusion grow amongst Deewiant, fizzie and scarf* < 1267208555 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't remember a lists:reverse/2 < 1267208589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh so you became confused too? < 1267208598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see erl -man lists of course < 1267208639 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recognise it, being used to Prolog < 1267208658 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's a bit non-obvious what reverse does there, I agree < 1267208695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, it reverses the first list then appends the second < 1267208708 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotcha < 1267208709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is a BIF it should be pretty well optimised too < 1267208736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BIF = Built In Function. Means it is implemented (in C probably) by the runtime) < 1267208783 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the compiler can't recognize and optimize lists:reverse(List) ++ Tail. < 1267208826 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit silly < 1267208835 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267208907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, really? How strange. < 1267208923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm being somewhat facetious. < 1267208927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it does. It certainly does optimise [H] ++ Tail into [H|Tail] < 1267208934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read that somewhere (official docs iirc) < 1267208971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, har < 1267208975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly possible to write "sufficiently clever compilers", but you rarely encounter them in the world at large. < 1267209059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what does G do on EOF? < 1267209065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems cfunge reflects on that < 1267209189 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't tell you anything beyond what the spec says < 1267209201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that "b" returned by FILE's G in http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FILE ? < 1267209245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember < 1267209253 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe nothing < 1267209283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology assume G trims the trailing whitespace? < 1267209284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267209288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trailing newline I meant < 1267209307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it is number of bytes < 1267209318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the length of the 0gnirts < 1267209324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(excluding the 0 it seems) < 1267209329 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. That wasn't very obvious. < 1267209329 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you ask me instead of mycology < 1267209341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BAD: G didn't read 'foo\n' < 1267209342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267209346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dumping it shows it did < 1267209347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267209415 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION awaits the "Deewiant, ^" < 1267209423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh found it < 1267209443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pitty this means I can no longer use lists:reverse/2, since I don't need to reverse at all < 1267209457 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267209523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pit viper falls into a pit. How pitiful. Isn't that the pits? < 1267209532 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1267209536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :) < 1267209558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw, I think we have another bug with R reflecting causing the program to go to the wrong place < 1267209588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, basically look at: http://sprunge.us/IfWW < 1267209622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not infinite here < 1267209626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stops after that point < 1267209798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well at least I got this in: < 1267209802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true = Bytes =< 0 < 1267209814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? Because that way I throw an exception if it isn't true < 1267209828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I can move all the error handling for this function to one place < 1267209846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err fix the order of >= < 1267209854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>= that is < 1267209978 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267210271 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267210544 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267210727 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267210960 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What language is this? < 1267210969 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, typing the keys on the keyboard feels so light < 1267210973 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just blowing snow. < 1267211222 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267211251 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267211257 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Your fingers get vibrated numb? < 1267211282 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's physically hard pushing on the snow blower < 1267211328 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesnt live where snow falls, so didnt realise < 1267211346 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the snow blower is crap, tbh < 1267211417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you should switch to a snow-sucker. < 1267211604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps even a snow-melter. < 1267211674 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A snow-sublimator. < 1267211695 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It blows cool, dry air on the snow, and the snow sublimates into that air. < 1267211766 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or increase global warming < 1267211859 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, increasing global warming has all sorts of negative effects... :-> < 1267211899 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where is alise < 1267211932 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, good point < 1267212045 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Won't he be here tomorrow, or is he usually here on Fridays? < 1267212129 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idk < 1267212146 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's usually here friday evening < 1267212150 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although not most of the day < 1267212419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is alise still a he? < 1267212584 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267212936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pushed the FILE for cfunge (both trunk and supervisor-tree) < 1267212952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : What language is this? <-- what language is what? < 1267212959 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: s/cfunge/efunge/? < 1267212964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err yeah < 1267212966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo < 1267212977 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever language they were talking about? < 1267212989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, when? < 1267212996 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I said that < 1267213020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, then the channel had been idle for a bit over 15 minutes, so none I guess < 1267213052 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whatever language they were talking about 15min before I said that, then < 1267213078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, befunge and/or erlang < 1267213097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, if it was the discussion I was involved in < 1267213106 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't even remember < 1267213112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do you even care then < 1267213113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1267213115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just scroll up < 1267213131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it is still on screen < 1267213139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just over half a page ago now < 1267213184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway: might be time to update the mycology results page soon. Perhaps include efunge too :) < 1267213203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, note that only supervisor-tree has TURT < 1267213211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in general it is less stable < 1267213354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, funny misreading: < 1267213358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 34V is 5 < 1267213359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :became < 1267213360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOD: 34V is 5A < 1267213364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ^ < 1267213365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267213425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is true for a direct current if the total resistance is 6.8 Ohm, and we assume there are only simple linear components) < 1267213463 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders how many facepalms the next episode of SG-1 [in season 9] will give him < 1267213466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, I wonder why CPLI doesn't do polar form < 1267213603 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly, 6.8 ohms is one of the standard values for resistors, too < 1267213623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, by the way: "Can't test o in linear text mode: i ignores spaces, no way to know from within standard Funge-98 whether they are output to file." is completely wrong. You can see if it skipped those spaces when reading in again. Like, the data continues after those spaces where it should < 1267213626 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good old E12 < 1267213629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just read it in in binary mode < 1267213633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get it all on one line < 1267213659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh yeah, probably a hidden message there! < 1267213755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, I think this requires a fingerprint ACDC that would implement various electricity related calculations < 1267213817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there are more operations than there are upper case letters, especially for AC < 1267213968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, btw if you are interested in efunge: bzr branch lp:~anmaster/efunge/supervisor-tree < 1267213990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge would be at bzr branch lp:cfunge < 1267214004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yay for vendor creep, better to say it before someone else does) < 1267214039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lp: of course is a short hand for https://something.launchpad.net/) < 1267214114 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: o with that mode removes only trailing spaces < 1267214175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, and trailing newlines / form feeds) < 1267214179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, on each line < 1267214200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so while you couldn't check trailing newlines/ff at the end of the file < 1267214213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could check if it removed spaces at the end of all but the last line < 1267214226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also if FILE was available you could check it fully < 1267214248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, FILE could be intentionally lying if the interpreter detected mycology) < 1267214257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that seems rather unlikely) < 1267214278 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology doesn't really try to handle being lied to ;-P < 1267214290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267214312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw, do you use G or just R for your FILE usage? < 1267214336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think I use G for some of the ^command persistence things, since it was easier there. < 1267214351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's a line-based format.) < 1267214376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267214389 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess i in binary mode only doesn't write spaces, it still increments the x-coordinate < 1267214402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION debates if to enable the read_ahead option when opening files in FILE < 1267214405 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, I think you could detect it in that way, you're right < 1267214417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yep < 1267214450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you see: < 1267214455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The read_ahead buffer is also highly utilized by the read_line/1 function in raw mode, why this option is recommended (for performance reasons) when accessing raw files using that function." < 1267214468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since I (for various reasons) use raw files... < 1267214505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :default size for read_ahead is 64 kb < 1267214506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267214511 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing performance-intensive in fungot uses G, though; just the initial state-loading. < 1267214513 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: aaargh... this bug can't be found that easily... but i probably will < 1267214523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267214524 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267214527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267214530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ct any more < 1267214532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explains it < 1267214560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't FILE have an option for transparent gzip :/ < 1267214566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that way it would have been trivial in erlang < 1267214576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since there is (for some reason) built in support for that < 1267214580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a flag to file:open < 1267214607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(doesn't work with read+write of course= < 1267214610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/)/ < 1267214631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style nethack < 1267214632 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) < 1267214648 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what do you sound like with the nethack style? < 1267214649 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: they say that some yetis are full of hot air. its small, distant cousin. various varieties exist, and whispered to him, " one rest") is sometimes termed " minister to the sea; there's no food. < 1267214670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how much would readahead benefit fungot for R though? < 1267214671 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nurses are trained to touch it. so david prevailed over the lower edge of the tribute) as well quit now!" i-hsiu was unable to quit it for use in hand-to-hand combat; wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or avoid the gaze of the dead. < 1267214702 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No clue, since I don't know how much it benefits R in general. In any case, there really aren't any performance problems in fungot at the moment. < 1267214703 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they say that dungeoneers prefer dark chocolate. the glare of the servants of the lords of death. you know what that is so much useless rusted scrap in no time at all.) had told him: " mirror, mirror: " you have a rocky road ahead of them must have brought it with blood a-drip at vlana's feet. < 1267214726 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That fact about yetis sounds a bit suspicious. < 1267214731 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nurses are trained to touch it. < 1267214738 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true that some yetis are full of hot air. < 1267214749 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well, it's the sort of thing that sounds true. < 1267214756 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in NetHack, it is true < 1267214802 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be; it's from rumors.tru. < 1267214885 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I know a lot about NetHack; I can normally guess whether a rumor is true or false < 1267214915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even though I'm not a very NetHacky person, I've actually acquired a fair amount of passive knowledge by osmosis from r.g.r.n. < 1267214916 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's that cockatrice-related false rumor? < 1267214930 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you read rgrn? < 1267214940 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: there's one about wielding a lizard corpse against a trice < 1267214949 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it. < 1267214951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Yes. In fact, I noticed one of your posts there recently. < 1267214976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's two others: "A cockatrice corpse is guaranteed to be untainted!" + "A dead cockatrice is just a dead lizard." < 1267215008 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would you read rgrn < 1267215015 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if you did play nethack < 1267215018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you not < 1267215037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shakes his head at all of USENET < 1267215039 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's full of sad, sad people < 1267215073 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who dedicated their life to nethack, think they're the ultimate authority on it, and actually aren't even very good < 1267215092 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rgrn's tactical advice isn't so much bad, as twenty years out of date < 1267215104 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the newsgroup as a whole has been getting better < 1267215135 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also haven't felt the tone to be pompous at all, which is what your description makes it sound like. < 1267215179 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the pompous people are the devteam, and they hardly ever say anything < 1267215256 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267215295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: No clue, since I don't know how much it benefits R in general. In any case, there really aren't any performance problems in fungot at the moment. < 1267215296 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sorry, no one knows why medusa stands alone in the kidnappings and raids the inhabitants of the temples. filling the gaps between these strips and the outside, he enjoys visiting the earth, a grasping tail, hooves, or yeti, is outside it; and so he returned to practice, teach, and thieves. he has been suggested that it was a pretty fair shot with a wand of vibration might bring the whole course of known life from the < 1267215304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much are continuous reads? < 1267215308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how much is random access < 1267215324 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with rgrn, who can tell? < 1267215326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's not much continuous reading at all. < 1267215339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1267215347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you don't use t do you? < 1267215378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in NetHack, it is true <-- how can yetis be full of hot air < 1267215386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, what does that actually mean for playing < 1267215393 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it means, that if you eat one, you might be full of hot air < 1267215398 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the message for gaining cold resistance < 1267215403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah... < 1267215417 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No t there, right. < 1267215418 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they weren't full of hot air, they'd be hurt by the cold < 1267215427 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that seems wrong for yetis < 1267215430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm. < 1267215461 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The messages are always so punny; your health currently feels amplified for shock resistance. < 1267215488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well since performance was one reason to switch to cfunge for you iirc (allowing bf/ul programs to run for longer), I doubt you would be interested in efunge. < 1267215531 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Wareya < 1267215558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mhm, maybe not; the sub-interpreters (bf, ul) are pretty slow, after all. < 1267215568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267215573 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1267215582 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'd like to have fungot 2.0 use ATHR; it sounds much more enterprisey that way. I'm just bad at getting things done. < 1267215582 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they say that a potion of sickness. ( funk wagnalls standard dictionary of the sun.... thrice i filled the tub and emptied it. < 1267215596 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a strange thing to say. < 1267215599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ATHR isn't done yet < 1267215622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to be enterprisey, find a use for TRDS < 1267215624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parts of it works < 1267215628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, har < 1267215628 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's better than time travel, after all < 1267215645 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267215652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, why not have 2 time dimensions < 1267215656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds even better < 1267215663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two or more of course < 1267215668 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go ahead and spec it then ;-P < 1267215676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, first tell me what the hell that even means < 1267215692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh wait, maybe like having the third dimension be the time dimension < 1267215712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so trefunge but every tick creates a new layer and move all ips there. < 1267215720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then something-something to travel in it < 1267215737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about that ^ < 1267215760 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You were doing okay until the "something-something" < 1267215784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1267215790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, rgrn is one huge bundle of pleasantness compared to unmoderated comp.lang.c. < 1267215791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't work out the something-something < 1267215802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, rgrn? < 1267215815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rec.games.rougelike.nethack? < 1267215816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rec.games.roguelikes.nethack < 1267215821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, almost < 1267215827 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it roguelike < 1267215828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever < 1267215831 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yours is in fact more right. < 1267215836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, more right? < 1267215840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it isn't right either? < 1267215849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is right. < 1267215851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267215855 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hamming distance is lower for mine < 1267215856 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is also more right than Deewiant's. < 1267215864 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267215866 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless a swap is cheap < 1267215871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267215876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267215877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it hamming distance < 1267215881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edit distance, whatever < 1267215888 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Edit distance from what? < 1267215896 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From rec.games.roguelike.nethack < 1267215902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to what? < 1267215906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, I completely unsaw AnMaster's typo. < 1267215912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed I didn't notice it either < 1267215914 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rec.games.rougelike.nethack and rec.games.roguelikes.nethack < 1267215923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can people not notice these things :-P < 1267215937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can't spot it reading quickly < 1267215941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can anyone spot it < 1267215947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the different length is harder to miss < 1267215975 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Even though I know it's there, I still have to look at it twice. Anyway, right, usually (or at least often) the "insert" and "substitute" operations have the same cost, so yours is in fact more right. < 1267215986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, as long as first and last letter are the same, the length is the same, and the general word shape (tall/low letters) is the same, you can easily read a text with some swapped letters. < 1267216010 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"NRGR"4( < 1267216011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for low swappedness it is hard to notice even < 1267216018 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can read it often enough, yes, but I still notice every typo < 1267216025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what the heck would that do ^_^ < 1267216033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, as in, spec it! < 1267216062 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: work < 1267216082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, possibly it should make it so that the IP can have it's stack values identified on exit? < 1267216100 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F posts a YAFAP to rgrn, while A posts a YAAP; M posts a YAFM, D posts a YAAD, and S a YASD. All with completely made-up details, of course. And so on. < 1267216127 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAFM and YAAD? < 1267216137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yet Another Funny Message, and Yet Another Annoying Death. < 1267216141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, YAFAP? < 1267216145 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright < 1267216151 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yet Another First Ascension Post. < 1267216155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267216157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Generally you should call F only once. :p < 1267216177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I never posted my first ascension < 1267216200 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267216212 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit debatable if it's "Yet Another (First Ascension) Post", or "Yet Another First (Ascension Post)". < 1267216218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the latter, you could do it even later. < 1267216225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how so? < 1267216233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1267216240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misunderstood what "later" was relative here < 1267216269 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't post my first ascension :( < 1267216288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even post a YAFAP-2 of some non-first ascension, followed by a YAFAP-1 of the first ascension. < 1267216291 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't ascended so I'm still good < 1267216382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how far have you reached? < 1267216386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in nethack < 1267216392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mooz has a YAFAP in rgrn, for those who remember/know the person. < 1267216406 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not far < 1267216412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember < 1267216421 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not very special, but first ascensions aren't so often. < 1267216444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've completed the quest once. < 1267216491 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've got as far as receiving it < 1267216503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, work harder at it! < 1267216513 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not exactly a priority for me ;-P < 1267216528 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You finished ADOM and Angband and everything else too? < 1267216555 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be difficult to ascend < 1267216557 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's quite easy < 1267216560 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 1. ignore rgrn < 1267216564 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 2. join #nethack < 1267216577 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 3. play on NAO and ask people for help when necessary < 1267216596 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's hardly proper < 1267216613 0 :daef!~david.zot@85-127-188-117.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1267216633 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi there < 1267216643 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1267216646 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just played around with brainf*** the first time < 1267216673 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :threw together a bunch of characters that output the current cell in decimal < 1267216684 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if the current cell holds the value 123 < 1267216695 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it output's "123" (the three characters) < 1267216713 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now write a program that does the same thing except without messing up any other cells. :P < 1267216721 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it looks much too complicated - is there someone who can look over the code and tell me what could be optimized < 1267216743 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About how long is it? < 1267216746 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: try running it in-channel, so we can have a look, if it's less than around 500 chars long < 1267216747 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267216752 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it messes up nothing - but it needs the next 9 cells to be empty (clear's them by itselve) < 1267216755 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! < 1267216770 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you know that's impossilbe < 1267216776 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's EgoBot? < 1267216779 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! < 1267216779 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! < 1267216788 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1267216792 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++[>++++++++<-]>[-<++>]<----- // schreibt die zahl 123 in die erste zelle < 1267216795 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>[-]++++++++[>[-]<[->+<]>-]<<<<<<<<< // lschen der nchsten zellen < 1267216797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind that, where's alise? < 1267216798 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[->+<]>[>+<-<+>]>[>>>>>[->+<]>+<<<<< // der eigentliche code < 1267216800 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :++++++++++<[->>+<-[>>>]>[[<+>-]>+>>] < 1267216803 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<<<<<]>[-]>[-<<+>>]>[-<<+>>]<<]>>>>> < 1267216805 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[<<<<+++++++[-<+++++++>]<-[<+>-]<.[- < 1267216808 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]>>>>>>[-<+>]<-]<<<<<<< < 1267216827 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first line writes 123 < 1267216833 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second line clears next 9 cells < 1267216843 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't know either, I'm worried < 1267216855 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :following 5 lines do the work, clean everything up and set the pointer back to the initial 123 < 1267216875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You finished ADOM and Angband and everything else too? <-- no < 1267216879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but slash'em of course < 1267216899 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1267216914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1267216920 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IVAN. < 1267216928 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: it looks relatively standard, and there's nothing obviously wrong < 1267216933 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267216945 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the [>>>] do? seeing an unbalanced loop makes me suspicious, as that code shouldn't really need one < 1267216954 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought there must be a easier way to do it < 1267216982 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267216986 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: well, there are of course a million possible innocent explanations *knock on wood* < 1267216986 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: the [>>>] is from my divide-code - when the dividend got zero the [>>>] ensures that the pointer points to an emtpy cell < 1267217005 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1267217010 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needed for my version of an if(is_zero... < 1267217015 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :division in BF is painful < 1267217020 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know anything better < 1267217030 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first approach was this one (works!) < 1267217040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<< :clear < 1267217040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[>->+<[>>>+>+<<<<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]+ :code < 1267217040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<[>[-]<[-]]>[<<+<[<+>-]>>>-]<<<<<-]> < 1267217040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-]>[<<+>>-]>[<<+>>-]<<< < 1267217041 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure there's a better division algorithm on the Esolang wiki. < 1267217043 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an article on brainfuck algos on our wiki < 1267217051 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[e:Brainfuck algorithms]] IIRC < 1267217055 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my second one is this one < 1267217056 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<< < 1267217056 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[->>+<-[>>>]>[[<+>-]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]> < 1267217056 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-<<+>>]>[-<<+>>]<<< < 1267217060 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms < 1267217064 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second one got the unbalanced loop < 1267217074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi AnMaster < 1267217086 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's much shorter and doesnt dup around the values from a to b,c and back... < 1267217088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a division algo by Calamari there that only needs four temporaries < 1267217099 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need five... damn < 1267217100 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267217109 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which is balanced < 1267217127 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where can i find it - so i can study it? < 1267217137 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the link above < 1267217141 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w8 < 1267217146 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only need 4 < 1267217154 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cells 0 and 1 are the values < 1267217158 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, I forgot to finish speaking. < 1267217159 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IVAN. < 1267217164 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 and 3 get the result < 1267217167 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is an iter vehemens ad necem. < 1267217174 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 and 5 are tmp < 1267217182 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where 4 always stays zero < 1267217198 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i only "invent" cells 2345 < 1267217203 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that are 4 tmp cells < 1267217273 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot find a link... *scrollscroll* < 1267217326 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms < 1267217329 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there, I've repeated it for you < 1267217331 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ty < 1267217399 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267217422 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267217473 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-22-38.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267217499 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the version on the wiki much looks like my first approach < 1267217511 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but my second one is definetly faster < 1267217526 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first one may optimise better, because it probably optimises into polynomials < 1267217531 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the temp's screw me up a bit - i have to translate it to bffirst < 1267217755 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267217837 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: what do you mean? < 1267217855 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: some BF interps are less naive than others < 1267217859 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some can be very fast indeed < 1267217877 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally speaking, a highly optimised BF interp is faster on balanced loops than unbalanced loops, due to the "polynomial optimisation" < 1267217989 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267218005 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i now translated the version from the wiki: < 1267218007 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<< < 1267218007 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[>>+<<-]>>[<[>>+>+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-] < 1267218007 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<[>+<<-[>>[-]>+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<[< < 1267218007 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-[<<<->>>[-]]+>-]<-]<<<+>>] < 1267218012 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if we have any BF optimisation experts here, though < 1267218025 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise knows a bit about it, but he's missing atm < 1267218026 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this one is my first approach: < 1267218027 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>[-]>[-]>[-]>[-]<<<<< < 1267218027 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[>->+<[>>>+>+<<<<-]>>>>[<<<<+>>>>-]+ < 1267218027 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<[>[-]<[-]]>[<<+<[<+>-]>>>-]<<<<<-]> < 1267218027 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[-]>[<<+>>-]>[<<+>>-]<<< < 1267218039 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite identical < 1267218043 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they really look nearly the same :) < 1267218055 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the algo looks different, although that might just be an illusion < 1267218080 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just watched them @ work - seen to work quite the same way < 1267218118 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my last two loops are just to get the results in the place i want them < 1267218127 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they dont really "do" anything < 1267218183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm not sure if we have any BF optimisation experts here, though <-- as in bf compiler optimising < 1267218190 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267218190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as in golfing bf code? < 1267218195 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, compiler optimising < 1267218197 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Might the "polynomial opt" have to do with the fact that you can precalculate all the offsets from the position where the loop begins? < 1267218201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know some of the compiler optimising stuff < 1267218207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither Calamari nor Keymaker's here, though < 1267218208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lifthrasiir is the expert on it < 1267218208 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that's it < 1267218213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ^ < 1267218214 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then change loops into multiplications < 1267218219 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ooh, right < 1267218222 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: OK... but I don't see what's "polynomial" about it :) < 1267218225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, remember esotope-bfc < 1267218228 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ok < 1267218232 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: because the multiplications turn into more multiplications < 1267218236 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you end up with polynomials < 1267218244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, quite < 1267218273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. It's 9 PM in ehirdland. < 1267218278 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder what's up? < 1267218287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, this looks like dire news indeed < 1267218298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ? < 1267218310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, about ehird not being here at this time < 1267218321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah... < 1267218355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION awaits the homing pigeon w/fragment of parchment tied to leg < 1267218380 0 :|MigoMipo|!~MigoMipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267218434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ? < 1267218451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I don't quite get the reference < 1267218510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: no no, it will be a bottle with a message inside < 1267218578 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267218583 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1267218624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, anyway, what is the optimising stuff you need help with there? < 1267218704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, and yes, unbalanced loops really reduces the possibilities to optimise an expressions < 1267218717 0 :|MigoMipo|!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1267218726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I don't think it ever optimises to integer division, because that is very tricky < 1267218731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiplication yes < 1267218782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, where was your program code? (pastebin please so it is easy to download) I want to see how the bf-compiler I wrote optimises it < 1267218795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in principle you could turn it into a lookup table, since it uses a finite number of cells :D < 1267218827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, interesting idea < 1267218841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(assuming finite cell size of course) < 1267218844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wouldn't it grow exponentially or such? < 1267218852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also input < 1267218863 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superexponentially probably... < 1267218865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a given piece of linear code < 1267218870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh true < 1267218879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there is no point in optimizing across input < 1267218884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imo < 1267218906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sure there is, of course not for that cell < 1267218909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for other cells yes < 1267218922 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267218937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably want to shift input and output to early and computations to late < 1267218949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well, where is it? :/ < 1267218951 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.248.104.180 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267218959 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1267219037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I need the full program, not just that algorithm, since otherwise it will optimise by assuming that at the start of the program every cell is zero < 1267219045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that likely it will just end up as s nop < 1267219061 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sry < 1267219068 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was sunk in the code from the wiki < 1267219075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no problem < 1267219079 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to translate it to as much highlvl i can < 1267219085 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to understand what he really does < 1267219092 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complete code... < 1267219094 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267219094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: put ,[>,][<] in front? :D < 1267219109 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um ,[>,]<[<] < 1267219112 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :containing the code to clear - which is not needed in this example - i guess < 1267219138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also it was on irc, would need to remove the [daef] prefix from it < 1267219142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-__ < 1267219144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-* < 1267219169 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, you're planning to run in-between on it? < 1267219172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: silly you, [daef] at start of program is a comment < 1267219174 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what a weird name for a bf interp, btw) < 1267219191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it might infinite loop since [] is a loop < 1267219200 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: at the start of the program, it's a header comment < 1267219203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, it made sense at the time < 1267219207 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing runs, because the current cell is 0 < 1267219207 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=w9wQAmGJ < 1267219214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes but look, it was split over multiple lines! < 1267219217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, thanks < 1267219221 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np < 1267219251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wth, that ends up like this: < 1267219255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>[-]++++++++[>[-]<[->+<]>-]<<<<<<<<< < 1267219257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when wgetting < 1267219263 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl < 1267219268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complete fail of "raw" < 1267219272 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tr is your friend < 1267219275 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267219284 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, it aslo has a doctype and some headers < 1267219286 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe lynx < 1267219297 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't it convert HTML to plaintext in batch mode? < 1267219299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION copy pastes < 1267219318 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fail... < 1267219329 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, lynx -dump file.html < 1267219337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, the code produced: http://sprunge.us/EQhd < 1267219339 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i pasted the raw because i thought it should be ease to fetch from the shell < 1267219344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that one wasn't perfect < 1267219354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I dare say esotope-bfc will manage better < 1267219357 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about esotope-bfc or whatever the better one was < 1267219387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/DURO is esotope < 1267219421 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit better < 1267219438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but p[-6] += ((7*p[-5])-1); < 1267219440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is pretty wtf < 1267219448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unneeded () there < 1267219448 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second one fits on my screen :) < 1267219453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yours gets it as well < 1267219456 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[-5]+=255 + 7*p[-4]; < 1267219470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 sprunge < 1267219472 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267219475 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's that from? < 1267219476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes but mine doesn't use that extra () around that expression < 1267219479 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1267219481 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1267219488 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: esotope obviously brackets every expression < 1267219494 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's for the number to ascii < 1267219501 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Binary expression) < 1267219502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, in your original code? No clue. both of those do things like sort the instructions and merge them < 1267219502 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1267219505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and expand loops < 1267219507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what not < 1267219514 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note that esotope doesn't optimize non-relatively-addressed cells into locals < 1267219514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, basically there is no way to tell what comes from where < 1267219529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be hard, but not impossible < 1267219532 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is in my original code? < 1267219538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, what? < 1267219551 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:19 < AnMaster> daef, in your original code? No clue. both of those do things like sort the instructions and merge them < 1267219557 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by that? < 1267219563 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry - english isn't my mother tongue < 1267219585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I mean, the compilers reorders stuff like: >>+<<+ into +>>+<< then into [0]++ [2]++ < 1267219587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such < 1267219598 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okayokay < 1267219599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, and sometimes move instructions to the other side of a loop < 1267219612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so well, it is very hard to figure out what part of the original code ended up where in the new code < 1267219614 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it doesn't matter < 1267219625 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what i see < 1267219627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show hello < 1267219631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1267219632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show < 1267219632 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble < 1267219635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^show hw < 1267219635 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>+9[<+8>-]<.>+7[<+4>-]<+.+7..+3.>>>+8[<+4>-]<.>>>+10[<+9>-]<-3.<4.+3.-6.-8.>>+. < 1267219643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1267219654 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since i've always seen bf as "current cell" - i've seen "moving the pointer costs time" < 1267219674 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when you "compile" it with absolute adresses < 1267219675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is another (same?) hello world: < 1267219676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-] < 1267219677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+. < 1267219680 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt count < 1267219698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, and that code produces this: http://sprunge.us/gbXQ < 1267219705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that is impressive isn't it? :) < 1267219714 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1267219716 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267219722 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not bad < 1267219762 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't it compile my code to s("123");? < 1267219768 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's static too < 1267219784 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as there is no "," it should always be possible < 1267219796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, sure, but it doesn't do full tracing < 1267219801 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1267219810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically what my compiler did there was: figure out constant values. Figure out what balanced loops with constant number of iterations does. Figure out what output instruction works on constants. Transform those to constant outputs. merge constant outputs into string output < 1267219814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then figure out dead stores < 1267219817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No; so long as there is no "," and it doesn't halt, it is possible. < 1267219819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1267219821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does. < 1267219825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yeah < 1267219829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible to prove whether or not it halts. < 1267219839 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry - that's correct < 1267219842 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old problem... < 1267219846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I can tell you the issue with your < 1267219861 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should have known that :D < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do { < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[1]=p[0]; < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[0]=0; < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[1]+=255; < 1267219866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p+=1; < 1267219867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} while (p[0]); < 1267219869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1267219875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, that is an unbalanced loop < 1267219892 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes - it is < 1267219907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I think it maps to [>[-]<[->+<]>-] < 1267219912 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what my code does < 1267219919 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the first cell is 123 < 1267219921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, unbalanced loops are tricky to get right < 1267219923 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it expands it to: < 1267219932 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :123,3,2,1,3 < 1267219938 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where the last one is the length < 1267219944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, that unbalanced thing is what breaks my compiler at that code however. It doesn't try to do much with them < 1267219945 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it outputs the 1 < 1267219957 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :123,3,2,2 < 1267219960 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits on clang -O3 -S LostKng.c. < 1267219964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since in general there isn't much you can do. Sure if it is a constant one at the start... < 1267219967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious what code you get out of that. < 1267219970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, from esotope? < 1267219973 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the nice thing about BF is to let your code move along the data < 1267219985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. < 1267219990 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so unbalanced stuff can make things very interesting - in my opinion < 1267220006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well not sure. I think mine managed a few things esotope didn't in lostking, and the vice verse < 1267220021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, sure, but it inhibits optimisation < 1267220036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, you could try to track if you could figure out if it was a constant < 1267220039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm curious what assembly is made. ;) < 1267220042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is somewhat hard still < 1267220062 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing i wrote once was a string to number func where you put in "(2+2)^3-3.3" and it gave the correct answer - recusions, paranthesis, etc... < 1267220068 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've never built a complete AST < 1267220069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I'm curious as to ram usage. I certainly never managed to compile it with gcc locally < 1267220076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I used tcc to test that it was valid c < 1267220094 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's because GCC uses *massive chunks* of RAM for compilation. < 1267220097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, in bf? impressive! < 1267220103 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: NO < 1267220104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, indeed. < 1267220106 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*g* < 1267220109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, ah, still not too bad < 1267220110 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in C# :D < 1267220111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clang is about as good at C compilation and optimisation, and doesn't use chunks of RAM. < 1267220122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, only took a couple of minutes to compile. < 1267220126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well I'm happy I didn't write it < 1267220137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I coded C# and well.... it's better than C++ certainly < 1267220140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is all I can say about it < 1267220145 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and made a boolean-tester too - so you could test "2>1" < 1267220150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and I hate C++) < 1267220161 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with and,or,xor,constants,comparison... < 1267220163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what specs? < 1267220173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, sempron 3300+ with 1.5 GB RAM here < 1267220183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, system runs at 2 GHz < 1267220184 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a quite straightforward piece i wrote because school was boring for a few hours < 1267220211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Phenom II X3 710, runs at 2.8 GHz. < 1267220211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267220212 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 GB RAM. < 1267220220 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only one core in use, of course. < 1267220222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, quite a lot faster then < 1267220240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what? why no parallel compilation? < 1267220246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be possible < 1267220260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do local optimisations on different halves < 1267220263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... *Single file*. < 1267220266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep < 1267220277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's theoretically possible, but not done by any compiler. < 1267220280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, nevertheless I think it should be possible once you built the AST < 1267220286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267220305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the big gains are gotten from telling Make to run multiple compilers at once. < 1267220313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267220332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, reminds me of a sad thing. erlang's build system broke at make -j2 < 1267220336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty sad considering < 1267220363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was trying to run the erlang compiler before the runtime was completely built) < 1267220408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is pretty dang sad. < 1267220422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yeah, I think it was only with some rare configure options < 1267220430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and damn hard to reproduce < 1267220444 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one should think a trivial language should be easy to optimize - but it doesn't seem so... :) < 1267220445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I blame autotools < 1267220462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well, brainfuck is a lot easier to optimise than befunge certainly < 1267220469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge is self modifying after all < 1267220470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 2D < 1267220483 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: read about it a time ago i think < 1267220492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fast interpreters yes, and fizzie was working on a JIT compiler for it < 1267220500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did you give it up? < 1267220502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what happened < 1267220858 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just re-read http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Befunge - now i like it :D < 1267220879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that 93 or 98? < 1267220882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :93 isn't TC < 1267220889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to finite space < 1267220894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98 can be TC < 1267220902 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: w0ot? < 1267220917 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC = turing complete < 1267220924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, there are two major versions of befunge: befunge-93, the original, Befunge-98 the newer one < 1267220931 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267220937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mainly dealt with befunge-98 (implementing it twice) < 1267220941 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference in the definition < 1267220950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty large ones < 1267220959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html < 1267220962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the spec for 98 < 1267220964 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You forgetting bashfunge? < 1267220966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is is quite massive < 1267220976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, intentionally. It was 93+a-bit < 1267220985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still more than 93 < 1267220995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :94,32 at most < 1267221002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :94.32* < 1267221009 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1267221050 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since both, 93 and 98, seem to have limited space - and limited cellsize - the stack must be infinite in length to be touringcomplete - doesn't it? < 1267221054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, remember, it's funge-space was 200x*, that is 200 wide but infinite high. No negative funge-space < 1267221066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, 98 can have non-limited cell size < 1267221076 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: kk < 1267221080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, one of the implementations I wrote is bignum < 1267221086 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlimited cellsize and space < 1267221095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And stack, yes) < 1267221098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, of course, in practise that will never be TC on any real computer < 1267221141 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's clear < 1267221150 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i thought cell's were limited in the spec < 1267221153 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what i've seen < 1267221176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, not exactly no. Or rather, for the "size of cells" value returned by y I return -1 < 1267221181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to work fairly well < 1267221193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec doesn't allow nor disallow it < 1267221199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the plan is to allow it for befunge-111 < 1267221213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since it isn't forbidden currently it's fine < 1267221213 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to read the whole spec when i'm awake < 1267221227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, there are some inconsistencies in it < 1267221237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is one of the reasons we are planning befunge-111 < 1267221250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey here is the author of previous befunge versions < 1267221260 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really had a hard week @work - so my brain is not really open for so much new stuff - i think my BF code should be enough for today's eve < 1267221286 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: nice work! < 1267221288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1267221297 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does glibc suck so much? < 1267221310 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: Thank you :) < 1267221326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines in a few years writing a new fingerprint, having by then completed ATHR. The introduction would be along the lines of: "Like ATHR extended Befunge to multi-core systems, aims to truly move Befunge into the realm of distributed HPC" < 1267221339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a program that literally *just uses a system call* that still links in 624k of library if statically linked. < 1267221341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this of course scares me < 1267221363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, start files? < 1267221370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, or what is going on < 1267221392 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 624k of libraries for the function "syscall". < 1267221394 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what's ATHR? < 1267221422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, a fingerprint (loadable extension) for befunge-98 that provides async threads. It is work in progress < 1267221444 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is that why my ghc binaries are always at least ~500k? < 1267221451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, the goal is to be able to make full use of multiple CPU cores. < 1267221459 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267221469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: No, GHC doesn't try to statically link against glibc. < 1267221471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, of course this is pretty insane. But then what isn't :) < 1267221492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC statically links against all Haskell libraries and the Haskell runtime. < 1267221497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: not in 6.12. < 1267221497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267221502 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as long as it works - it's not insane - it's genious < 1267221504 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ah well, bloat by any other name... < 1267221512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well parts of it works, parts do not < 1267221513 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(might also be true if something MIGHT work - once...) < 1267221518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet < 1267221541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, http://sprunge.us/MUQO is the work-in-progress spec < 1267221551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiiiiiiiiiiiiiki < 1267221567 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a favicon for Hackiki < 1267221573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, hi there. Fix egobot and hackego < 1267221576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, both are down < 1267221576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267221581 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dobleve te efe < 1267221610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was an interesting reaction < 1267221620 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267221641 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267221658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267221671 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how should i imagine - two threads - asynchrounously- altering their codebase with p-commands < 1267221679 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely unpredictable result i smell < 1267221685 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anywho < 1267221689 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiiiiiiiiiiiiiki < 1267221691 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need a favicon for Hackiki < 1267221704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, with some medicine against headaches nearby perhaps? ;P < 1267221762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, seriously, it can work out, the fingerprint provides some ways to sync things. As long as the implementation does whatever is needed to keep the threads from corrupting internal data structures it is fine < 1267221785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, most parts apart from the books/mutex thingy works already < 1267221830 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds interesting - i'll keep that spec open and read it tomorrow - after a friend of mine and i try to alter a huge videowall in my hometown :D < 1267221843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, huh? < 1267221845 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to catch some sleep for tomorrow < 1267221847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267221853 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have fun < 1267221862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh I noticed I had forgot I wrote this: < 1267221865 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice place here - might come back to idle a bit :) < 1267221869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The "extended ISBN numbers" mentioned may be any number in the range valid for < 1267221869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Funge cells. For bignum funges this means the library is clearly Hilbert's < 1267221869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Library." < 1267221877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what an incredibly lame joke < 1267221900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worst part is of course that I wrote that myself < 1267221905 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dave hilbert - the mathematician? < 1267221925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, yeah, by analogy to the "hilbert's hotel" < 1267221941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is used to demonstrate what is meant with infinites < 1267221948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and infinites of various sizes < 1267221970 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never studied - so i've never HEARD about him - just remeber him from screwing around through the intertubes... < 1267221970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert%27s_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel < 1267221995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, well, without a decent amount of math that may not be quite as fun < 1267222014 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define: a decent amount of math < 1267222095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one day I want to go to that hotel < 1267222138 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: and ask everyone for a penny? < 1267222144 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: you're in it! This planet and all its celestial bodies are room number 1. < 1267222151 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, and all its artificial satellites. < 1267222152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, quite. Anyway that is a strange way to solve "Infinitely many coaches with infinitely many guests each" on wikipedia < 1267222159 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Moon is room number 2. < 1267222169 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Room number 3 is still under construction. < 1267222193 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it already exists, fully constructed. But we're not sure which one it is yet. < 1267222224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought what you did was arrange all the guests in a square on the (infinite) parking lot and then apply Cantor's zig-zag thingy < 1267222234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then load them all back into one coach < 1267222243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it is reduced to a problem you already solved above < 1267222244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267222245 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an efficient way to do it. < 1267222257 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's Wikipedia's way? Powers of prime numbers? < 1267222266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, something like that < 1267222285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"then put the first coach's load in rooms 3n for n = 1, 2, 3, ..., the second coach's load in rooms 5n for n = 1, 2, ... and so on; for coach number i we use the rooms pn where p is the (i + 1)-th prime number." < 1267222295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it also seems to suggest some other ways < 1267222313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You can also solve the problem by looking at the license plate numbers on the coaches and the seat numbers for the passengers (if the seats are not numbered, number them). Regard the hotel as coach #0. Interleave the digits of the coach numbers and the seat numbers to get the room numbers for the guests. The guest in seat number 1729 moves to room 01070209 (i.e, room 1,070,209.) The passenger on seat < 1267222314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 4935 of coach 198 goes to room 4199385 of the hotel." < 1267222321 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is a strange way of doing it, especially since it puts multiple guests in room 15. < 1267222324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a solution I haven't seem before < 1267222361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, how? < 1267222367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, oh that isn't 5n < 1267222371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is copy failure < 1267222374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is 5^n < 1267222374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1267222376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 3^n < 1267222380 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And p^n. < 1267222384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267222390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blame firefox and/or xchat < 1267222407 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I elect to blame you instead. But anyway. < 1267222419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a slightly less strange way of doing it. < 1267222421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I reflect that blame so you take the whole of it < 1267222444 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also reflect the blame, so it forms a standing wave in the resonant cavity between us. < 1267222480 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's what the dentist said!) < 1267222590 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets mode +blame to the company with finite workers that wasn't able to finish the roof of the hotel in finite time :D < 1267222697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: oh no, you've constructed a blaser < 1267222805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sets mode +blame to the punk who claimed this hotel was infinite. < 1267222813 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feeds energy into the resonant cavity. < 1267222822 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a whole infinity less hotel than was claimed! < 1267222858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: heck, there's even a whole infinity _times_ less hotel than was claimed < 1267222883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So there is. < 1267222913 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an entire logarithm... um... infinitely less amount. < 1267222923 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: no there isn't! < 1267222926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cantor's theorem < 1267222940 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1267222954 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A _path_ in a playfield given by a position vector P and a velocity vector V is the set of cells of the playfield addressed by any vector which is the sum P and n * V, where n is any non-negative integer." < 1267222968 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(today's Befunge-111 spec excerpt) < 1267222980 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, the union of all countable ordinal numbers is uncountable, but there's a countable set that has all the countable ordinal numbers as subsets. < 1267223001 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let me rephrase that. < 1267223010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You probably want "sum of" there < 1267223017 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: um not if you use von Neumann representation, i think < 1267223044 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The union of all countable ordinal numbers is countable, but there's a countable set such that for every countable ordinal number, that number is order isomorphic to a subset of that countable set. < 1267223053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think that's the first time I've ever heard Hilbert referred to as "Dave". < 1267223068 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like. < 1267223075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: right, like the rationals < 1267223085 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1267223098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't a _well-ordered_ such set, though < 1267223099 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, how do I know that the rationals are such a set? < 1267223115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: because i said so, silly < 1267223128 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because every countable ordinal number is the limit of countably many ordinal numbers. < 1267223134 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whew. Disaster averted. < 1267223162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: um that's not the argument i know, and i don't see how that helps < 1267223195 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you have a set of rational numbers, you can compress it into a set of rational numbers in the interval [0,1). < 1267223204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes. Thanks. < 1267223206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since, if it's a successor ordinal, you have to include itself in the limit < 1267223219 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if it's a successor ordinal, it's obvious. < 1267223225 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take the previous ordinal and stick one more on the end. < 1267223250 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's a limit ordinal, map the first ordinal in the sequence into [0,1), the next into [0,2), the next into [0,3), and so on. < 1267223281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: the argument i know start with the obvious fact that if you have a countable ordinal, there is an actual _counting_ of it, i.e. a sequence containing all its elements. < 1267223312 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so you can just take the enumeration and pick a rational number for each element. < 1267223313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: hm that might work < 1267223329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267223397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: i am not _entirely_ convinced that your method works, you would need it to be a limit of an _increasing_ sequence of smaller ordinals < 1267223427 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you have a non-increasing sequence, you can just toss out every element that isn't the highest one so far. < 1267223450 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ... yeah < 1267223486 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*starts < 1267223488 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. I am now a constructive proof that omega^omega can be embedded in the rationals. < 1267223531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you need a constructive way to pick a counting, though < 1267223538 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which exists, of course) < 1267223551 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are now a constructive proof that omega^omega is countable. < 1267223570 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ < 1267223574 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, you're an enumeration of omega^omega. < 1267223578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am now confused by your anthropomorphism. < 1267223621 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zygohistomorphic anthropomorphism? < 1267223640 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, omega^omega in cantor normal form consists of finite sums of things of the form omega^n * m, where n and m are both finite < 1267223643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I am an axolotl. < 1267223653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*elements in cantor normal form < 1267223804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, you can identify that with the natural numbers by using the products p_n ^ m < 1267223815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p_n = n'th prime number < 1267223826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q.e.d. < 1267223846 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you're an enumeration; you're supposed to start stating numbers. < 1267223846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*products of < 1267223854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.k. < 1267223908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n should start at zero so we get omega^0, m should start at 1 < 1267223967 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you stated an ordinal number yet? < 1267223973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0, 1, omega, 2, omega^2, omega + 1, omega^3, < 1267224030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3, omega*2, omega^2 + 1, omega^4, omega + 2, < 1267224037 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 -> 0 < 1267224038 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 -> 1 < 1267224039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega -> 2 < 1267224043 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 -> 1/2 < 1267224046 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^2 -> 3 < 1267224059 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega+1 -> 2 1/2 < 1267224066 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^3 -> 4 < 1267224068 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 -> 2/3 < 1267224078 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega*2 -> 2 2/3 < 1267224092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^2 + 1 -> 3 1/2 < 1267224095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^4 -> 5 < 1267224106 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega + 2 -> 2 3/5 < 1267224122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This could get tiring. < 1267224139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omega^5, omega^3 + 1, omega^2 + omega, 4, omega^6, < 1267224155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it could :D < 1267224171 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should come up with an actual mapping. < 1267224193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my counting is clear enough, anyway < 1267224224 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I'll describe the second half of the mapping first. < 1267224353 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a way to choose based on continued fractions, which has the advantage (iirc) that if you always choose another number between any two, you get to use _all_ the rationals. of course that won't happen here, anyway. < 1267224409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically whenever p1/q1 and p2/q2 are neighbors, the next between them is (p1+p2)/(q1+q2), iirc < 1267224410 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set a/d = 0/1, b/e = 1/2, and c/f = 1/1. If the list is empty, return b/e. Otherwise, remove the first element of the list. If it was "down", set a/d and b/e to b/e and (a+b)/(d+e), respectively. If it was "up", set b/e and c/f to (b+c)/(e+f) and b/e, respectively. Repeat. < 1267224482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, i'm sure this (and the resulting tree) has been discussed on this channel before < 1267224550 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you described my algorithm a second before I described mine. < 1267224585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "A _path_ in a playfield given by a position vector P and a velocity vector V is the set of cells of the playfield addressed by any vector which is the sum P and n * V, where n is any non-negative integer." < 1267224585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (today's Befunge-111 spec excerpt) < 1267224586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm to get all rationals and not just (0,1), you'd want sort of -1/0 and 1/0 at the end, i thikn < 1267224586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267224587 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a scale from "lame" to "inhumanly terrible", how lame is http://hackiki.org/favicon.ico < 1267224589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*think < 1267224609 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: lame. < 1267224625 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your scale also included "perfect", it would be that. < 1267224631 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm violating the rules just by saying so. < 1267224634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: i was hoping for something with an axe in it < 1267224647 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... with ... an axe? < 1267224652 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: start at 0, and initially do nothing but add or subtract 1. < 1267224653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for hacking, of course < 1267224687 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What "huh" < 1267224693 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: yeah at the ends, it's just that adding and subtracting 1 is equivalent to using -1/0 and 1/0 as hypothetical neighbors, isn't it < 1267224722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't get what the point of that bit is < 1267224734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I understand what it means once adding the missing "P" < 1267224763 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Missing "P"? < 1267224781 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, he defines what a path is. There is no point beyond that in that excerpt. < 1267224796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, missing of I meant < 1267224802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but what is a path? < 1267224806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why do we need it < 1267224806 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, that's very true. < 1267224810 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What he defined < 1267224816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why do we need it though < 1267224828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why we need it, I don't know; presumably so that he can say things like "the next funge-space cell in the IP's path" < 1267224835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267224847 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the median-thingy of -1/0 and 1/0 is 0/0, not 0/1. < 1267224851 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That probably makes sense. < 1267224872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1267224892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'll need to include 0/1 at the start, then < 1267224897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, what are you doing there dividing with zero!? < 1267224898 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those endpoints don't give you a defined starting point, but every rational number between them does give you a defined starting point. < 1267224903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without a limit < 1267224910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i suggested it < 1267224917 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: / doesn't mean division here! < 1267224920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why and what does it actually mean < 1267224929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It means tuple. < 1267224953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a "formal" fraction, to start enumerating the rest of the rationals in any way you want < 1267224961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, don't you usually write that (x_1,x_2,...,x_n)? < 1267224969 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a formal? < 1267224972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ^ < 1267224973 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does formal meahn < 1267224981 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but we're writing it x/y instead of (x,y). < 1267224984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, "not informal" < 1267224989 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean < 1267224991 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing "formal" means "pretend" in this case. < 1267224994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it has the form of a fraction, but not the meaning? < 1267224995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, "not not formal" < 1267225002 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop it anmaster < 1267225006 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a serious question < 1267225010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267225012 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, that's what it means. Having the form of a fraction but not the meaning. < 1267225021 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay thank you < 1267225043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, are you doing cantor's zig-zag thingy? < 1267225081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, this is a different way, which can be adapted to put _any_ countable ordered set into the rationals < 1267225090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh? < 1267225127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what is this way called? < 1267225140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'll try to find the wp article < 1267225152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works too I guess < 1267225252 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern%E2%80%93Brocot_tree i think < 1267225332 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Construct a binary search tree out of the set. Map it onto its Stern-Brocot tree. < 1267225350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for kicks, I thought I'd write enough of a libc to support LostKng.c < 1267225351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, cantor's zig-zag is a lot easier to follow < 1267225367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: for enumerating rationals, yes < 1267225414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1267225642 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write down a rational, then interpret the resulting ASCII string as a base-256 numeral < 1267225648 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck cantor < 1267225709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how crude :D < 1267225721 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck cantor he was insane and a liar < 1267225725 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set theory is false < 1267225751 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have disproved cantors "theorem" using magic sequences < 1267225776 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain < 1267225784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no sets. there is just a vast sea... of cantor trolls. < 1267225836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well some cranks, too. < 1267225860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are indistinguishable by the fundamental quantum principle known as poe's law. < 1267225872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The concept 'path' comes up in the spec a couple of times and it needs an explanation (in wrapping, semicolons, and ' and s and k) < 1267225897 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact several symmetries will interchange them, such as turning the sea upside down. < 1267225943 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Which Poe is that named after? Edgar Allen? < 1267225989 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Billy Dodifur Poe < 1267225997 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Dodifer < 1267226018 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it is hard to determine that, because the law is metacircularly self-applying < 1267226153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah there _is_ a poe's law named after edgar allan too < 1267226170 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can has LostKng in 92K. < 1267226177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note: after UPX) < 1267226308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Any idea how much memory LostKng actually needs? < 1267226311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : write down a rational, then interpret the resulting ASCII string as a base-256 numeral fuck cantor how crude :D <-- wonderful < 1267226355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, ASCII is overkill for that. You could write it down in binary, requiring only a 3-symbol alphabet. < 1267226377 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267226381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no. Try massif? < 1267226390 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or unary < 1267226391 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267226395 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two symbols - digit and separator < 1267226404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: massif? < 1267226406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**/*** < 1267226409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wassat? < 1267226410 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck teh worlde? < 1267226412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, valgrind --tool=massif < 1267226427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: LostKng. < 1267226438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to know how many *Brainfuck cells* it needs. < 1267226438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yep. But if compiled to C < 1267226443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1267226449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, add a counter < 1267226450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't want to play *every branch of the game*. < 1267226452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : with a max value < 1267226456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay < 1267226470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't want to play *every branch of the game*. < 1267226487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I have no idea how to figure out < 1267226499 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shall try to grep for whatever esotope uses for relative memory accessing < 1267226502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need a BF abstract-interpreter < 1267226531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, eh? < 1267226545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've got the C code from esotope-bfc here. < 1267226547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it won't help past a unbalanced loop < 1267226555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, an* < 1267226557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering if it even *uses* relative memory accessing. < 1267226570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't, then I can just grep for the largest number used. < 1267226573 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm thinking, abs interp of BF is kind of hard for unbalanced loops < 1267226576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it does < 1267226579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it does < 1267226610 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: LostKng after optimisation of it through esotope? < 1267226625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I at least didn't *see* any. < 1267226636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you know what to look for? < 1267226644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, see how it works < 1267226646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the top < 1267226656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it uses a pointer p as "current" or such < 1267226668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what in-between does < 1267226687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that gives a[2] = 2 < 1267226690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as abs < 1267226690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1267226696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p[3] = 2 as relative < 1267226707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man. Deewiant: Does mycology test for y's ability to perform "pick"? I sure hope not. < 1267226718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes, it does. < 1267226731 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It uses "p" as a pointer to the array and does everything in terms of it. < 1267226734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, of course it does. And it's a useful feature < 1267226739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there you are then < 1267226740 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't rely on it though < 1267226753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as soon as it move p you change the relativeness < 1267226763 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I can look for actual modification of p. < 1267226776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, there will be a lot < 1267226791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup, it actually modifies p. < 1267226793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then. < 1267226803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it does < 1267226804 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No guarantees. < 1267226819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have to. < 1267226838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only 645 modifications of p in the program. < 1267226839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Um, given that y can push a variable number of value onto the stack, ... how does it work??? < 1267226848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, similar for in-between iirc < 1267226854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around 700 or so I think there < 1267226863 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It uses 0y first to see how many values it pushes, and assumes that it doesn't change when you do another 0y. < 1267226878 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Crikey! OK... < 1267226886 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267226898 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a reasonable assumption, although I suppose some OS might allow messing with a program environment variables behind its back < 1267226903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program's* < 1267226906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, EVAR? < 1267226912 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "behind its back" < 1267226914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I dread EVAR + ATHR + y < 1267226918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :30,000 it is, then. < 1267226944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose some interpreter might also modify its own environment variables randomly but... meh < 1267226970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and gdb to mess with the env vars < 1267226998 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"1 cell containing the number of bytes per cell (global env). aka cell size. Typically 4, could also be 2, 8, really really large, infinity, etc." <-- Wow, an actual contradiction. < 1267227023 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, a very undefined corner: 16-bit cells. < 1267227030 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267227030 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, I suppose you're right < 1267227035 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267227048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, they are forbidden iirc < 1267227048 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Any size works decently well < 1267227056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, 2 < 1267227057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267227067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, well I suggest -1 there for "bignum" < 1267227074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since well, we don't have "infinity" < 1267227081 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology requires at least 10 bits though, since it's so big < 1267227081 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also like how "infinity" is mentioned, but not how to represnt it. < 1267227094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, there is no MAX_BIGNUM < 1267227095 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a floating-point Funge? < 1267227103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus I suggest -1 for bignum < 1267227115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for floating point: I pitty those programmers < 1267227123 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pity* < 1267227126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who have to code in it and who have to use it < 1267227132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, with extra t < 1267227146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology would probably run fine with a floating-point Funge < 1267227158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, depends on precision < 1267227169 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course, a 1-bit wouldn't work. < 1267227174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also division would give strange results < 1267227200 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it would < 1267227213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For certain values of "strange" < 1267227240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, strange as in "mycology would probably bail out early on if division didn't produce expected results < 1267227243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1267227250 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe < 1267227260 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember if it tests floored division < 1267227262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably does < 1267227334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1267227402 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267227692 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-5-186.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267227808 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, ridiculously small LostKng. < 1267228357 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many (or some, anyway) bignum systems have a MAX_BIGNUM; for example, GMP's documented integer format on a 32-bit system can't be larger than something like 2^(32*2^31); and for a 64-bit system, typically it's actually still just 2^(64*2^31), which might even fit in the memory of a reasonable system; it's just 32 gigabytes. < 1267228377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might not be very user-friendly to have y return a 32-gigabyte cell value, though. < 1267228397 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 gigabytes, I mean. < 1267228443 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would a bignum have a maximum value? < 1267228474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of the implementation. GMP's is just a dynamic-length array of 32- or 64-bit "limbs", and the length field is a regular signed 32-bit int. < 1267228611 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267228628 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A number that takes 32 GB is a very big number :P < 1267228645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Only 16 GB! I miscalculated there. < 1267228656 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(One of the bits of the limb count is used as a sign bit.) < 1267228665 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A number that takes 16 GB is a very big number :P < 1267228749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, unless you want to reserve the description "very big" for Graham's number and his friends. < 1267228813 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure a limit just under what a computer can actually handle would be very annoying for those trying to do calculations _pushing_ what their computer can handle... < 1267228834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in fact only 8 GB for a 32-bit system, because the limb size is 32 bits too. It's still larger than the directly addressable memory, anyhow. < 1267228858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, heck, even our new cluster nodes have 64 GB of physical memory. You can fit three, almost four GMP MAX_BIGNUMs in there. < 1267229358 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267231039 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267231045 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267232122 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267232250 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267234187 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267236752 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267241159 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.solidcolorneckties.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/30607/subcatid/73650/id/422493 Need < 1267241195 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it, immediately < 1267241261 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually know how to tie a bow-tie :P < 1267241271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fix that. < 1267241304 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1267241633 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't know which is better: The fact that solidcolorneckties.com exists, or the fact that they sell non-solid-color ties :P < 1267241744 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly it's solid as opposed to liquid, here < 1267241873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the white plasma neckties never really caught on < 1267241876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1267241946 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fish-bowl bow ties, eh? < 1267242030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have gas-color neckties. < 1267242038 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're clear, inflatable plastic. < 1267242077 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesomes < 1267242084 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like something for a rave < 1267242090 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how the light would act... < 1267242690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no ... < 1267242694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They only have it in pre-tied :( < 1267242696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's so much lame. < 1267242759 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a clip on < 1267242764 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clip-on? < 1267242839 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume so < 1267242926 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if it's worth it now :( < 1267243140 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...make your own? < 1267243203 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make my own ... bow-tie ... < 1267243242 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems plausible < 1267243246 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1267245099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267245584 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267245589 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAME OF SPIDER-WEB IN DARK!! < 1267245912 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Caching isn't broken, it just doesn't know that your script uses randomness. < 1267245931 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is there a way to disable caching though, in the header output or something like that? < 1267245957 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: See zzo38: http://hackiki.org/wiki/features.caching < 1267245961 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just so you know, I have made some kind of fix to the script. < 1267245964 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://hackiki.org/wiki/adventure_ideas < 1267245977 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Select the [AGAIN] link for another random < 1267246049 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there is another way, such as by setting a cookie with the current timestamp and that would make the request not-identical? < 1267246053 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would that work? < 1267246074 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just touch a file if you use randomness. < 1267246096 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, randomness isn't part of the design intent of caching, the best thing would be to run a non-cached Hackiki. < 1267246110 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, so I would just use touch on the current file, then? < 1267246160 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I write: touch('bin/'.$filename); < 1267246174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nono, you have to actually make a change, e.g. date > /hackiki/nocache or something akin to that. Maybe I'll make a more elegant mechanism, but like I said, the best thing would be to run a non-cached Hackiki if you need random behavior. < 1267246181 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will try that to see if it helps a bit. But then it won't work if you are not logged in? < 1267246191 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good point :) < 1267246230 0 :madbr!~madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1267246300 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if I could do "headers\nnocache\n\n" if you programmed Hackiki to support a function like that < 1267246304 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, some mechanism for a script to indicate to Hackiki that it can't be cached would be useful. Not sure if there's sufficient use cases for it to me ... < 1267246493 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, simply to make Hackiki complete, of course. < 1267246507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267246518 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki is supposed to be /simple/ :P < 1267246551 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, simple, but it should be complete, too. (Will setting a cookie do it?) < 1267246611 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, and feel free to edit my list of adventure ideas for Furryscript now that it is on Hackiki. < 1267246667 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read the cache description, does "same everything" include cookies? < 1267246700 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm setting it up as a header. < 1267246713 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1267246714 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it doesn't, the scripts can't (currently) read cookies. < 1267246723 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, thanks < 1267246742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Not true. They can read them with Javascript. < 1267246743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267246747 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :furryscript? < 1267246747 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, if it included cookies then the cache would border on useless. < 1267247131 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: If a page sets the header X-Hackiki-Cached: No, then it won't cache. < 1267250056 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :byeee < 1267250057 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267250344 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given a magical HTTP server that can set the URL of the client anytime it wants, what would you do? < 1267250400 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In terms of AJAXiness < 1267250450 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m < 1267251397 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267251567 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's strange when people say that they've disproved a theorem. < 1267251598 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they mean that they've proven a contradictory theorem, that they've proved the underlying theory inconsistent, or that they've found a flaw in the theorem? < 1267251613 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Speaking of inconsistency, my past participle of "prove".) < 1267251630 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just "disproved," you know. < 1267251633 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any of the above. < 1267251671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can also mean complete and utter bullshit. < 1267252107 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reads about an alleged inconsistency in ZFC, and ponders why it's not really an inconsistency in ZFC. < 1267252228 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty much what I thought and/or remembered. < 1267252232 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Skolem's paradox. < 1267252249 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are countable models of ZFC. Such models must contain uncountable sets. Contradiction? < 1267252267 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267252272 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No; an "uncountable set" in the model is really just a set where the enumeration is not in the model. < 1267252510 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. I can set the header X-Hackiki-Cached < 1267252527 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have noticed that header when using netcat to connect to Hackiki. < 1267252588 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hay, it works! Thanks < 1267252719 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And about disproving a theorem, well, there are many ways to do it. < 1267252843 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a proof that I am the pope! < 1267252872 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose 2 + 2 = 5. We already know that 2 + 2 = 4. This means that 5 = 4, meaning that 2 = 1. Now, the Pope and I are two, which means that the Pope and I are one. < 1267252875 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1267252917 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, I have read in some book about criteria that odd perfect numbers must meet, if they exist. Immediately I thought, if you can find criteria which contradict each other (and the proof of that), then you can also know there are no odd perfect numbers. < 1267252947 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Well, that doesn't prove you are the pope. Your logic says that if 2+2=5 then that makes you the pope. (Well, kind of.) < 1267252969 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just don't understand proof by contradiction. :P < 1267252983 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're perfect, there's no oddity < 1267253014 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your argument follows proof of contradiction structure, then you've just proved that 2+2≠4 < 1267253015 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so nothing can be both odd and perfect same time < 1267253033 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er. 2+2≠5 < 1267253038 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof by contradiction that 2 + 2 = 4: < 1267253050 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose 2 + 2 != 4. This contradicts the fact that 2 + 2 = 4. Therefore, 2 + 2 = 4. < 1267253076 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: That's like self-reasoning, isn't it? < 1267253098 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I object, I'm using the integers modulo 3 and it only goes up to 2 < 1267253114 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly 2 + 2 = 1 < 1267253122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree. 2 + 2 = 1. < 1267253130 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, sorry. I guess that's reasonable. But you have to specify, because otherwise it is not assumed!! < 1267253135 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 is just an ugly way of writing 1. < 1267253166 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :四 < 1267253219 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does turing's incompleteness theorem mean you're not allowed to use proofs by contradiction? < 1267253247 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: As far as I know, it doesn't *always* disallow it, at least. < 1267253253 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing has an incompleteness theorem? < 1267253257 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :godels < 1267253259 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing < 1267253401 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, why would it mean that? < 1267253424 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A proof by contradiction doesn't say "if this were true, ZFC would be inconsistent". < 1267253437 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it to work! http://hackiki.org/wiki/adventure_ideas You can edit the script if you want, or edit the bin/Furryscript file to change the form, or so on. It is Hackiki and is experiment for everyone with OpenID to do with < 1267253476 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know, that spider-web in dark is a good way to stop the war? < 1267253571 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: it just says not everything is provable, right? < 1267253598 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am not familiar with goedel's theorem so much, btw) < 1267253603 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there are two of the theorems. < 1267253616 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is right not everything can be provable < 1267253617 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are certainly provable things, in the rendering I'm familiar with < 1267253627 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the first one says that any sufficiently powerful consistent theory has statements that are true but not provable. < 1267253644 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second one says that if a sufficiently powerful theory has a proof of its own consistency, it is inconsistent. < 1267253675 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good summary < 1267253732 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I once saw some argument that went like this: < 1267253788 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you add an axiom to TNT that proves its own consistency? < 1267253867 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider any theory's Goedel statement, which is "This theory has a disproof of its Goedel statement." Obviously, the Goedel statement is false for all theories. However, given a theory, it cannot disprove its own Goedel statement, whereas a human can tell it's false just by looking at it; therefore, humans can know things no mathematical theory can prove. < 1267253879 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a really, really dopey argument, because the Goedel statement is not false for all theories. < 1267253895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Even if "theory" means "theory capable of expressing arithmetic", as I glossed.) < 1267253902 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, what's TNT? < 1267253961 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TNT = Typographical Number Theory < 1267254017 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TNT + "TNT is consistent" is almost certainly consistent. < 1267254035 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. I guess I thought so < 1267254036 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The theory X where X = TNT + "X is consistent" is not consistent, I think. < 1267254049 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1267254169 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cute theory is ZFC + "ZFC is inconsistent". < 1267254178 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1267254192 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gracenotes :D < 1267254259 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you say "OK" every time I include a string of the form "X is consistent" or "X is inconsistent". < 1267254294 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. I am just confirming that I read it and don't have a disagreement of it < 1267254369 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A cute response is OK + "OK is inconsistent". < 1267254370 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION coughs. < 1267254372 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how to add natural numbers represented as sets? < 1267254379 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To what? < 1267254381 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK + "OK is inconsistent" < 1267254388 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, how cute! < 1267254432 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if you have 0 is {} and 1 is {0} and 2 is {0,1} and so on, how do you figure out the set that is represent the sum of two natural numbers which are as sets, using only set operations (and not arithmetic operations)? < 1267254466 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1267254467 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: whats your definition of successor there < 1267254479 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :successor={#|[#]}; < 1267254485 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because succ {} = {{}}, and succ {{}} = {{},{{}}} < 1267254487 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The successor of X is X union {X}, I'm sure. < 1267254503 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's the same thing I just wrote, but in words < 1267254529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so then if 0 = {}, then succ {} = {} u {{}} = {{}}, such {{}} = {{}} u {{{}}} = {{},{{}}}, etc. ok, i see. < 1267254546 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1267254564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im used to seeing it be succ x = {x,{x}} < 1267254570 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION straightens out his mind. < 1267254588 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. X + Y is X union {X + y : y is in Y}, I think. < 1267254612 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let me think about that a bit < 1267254639 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think your definition is fine < 1267254654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each number is the set of all numbers below it < 1267254666 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yes, that's the usual way < 1267254673 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is the way I am using < 1267254675 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a recursive definition, of course. < 1267254678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267254679 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats what i just said :P < 1267254698 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267254703 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then < 1267254848 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how should a pair be represent as a set? < 1267254860 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,y) = {{x},{x,y}} < 1267254901 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, that seems to work. I can add it into the esolang wiki page [[Hyper Set Language]] < 1267254928 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I found some philosophy forums online. < 1267254931 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading them makes me ill. < 1267254992 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think one post said that the philosopher is a minus sign or phallus seeking Sophia. < 1267255026 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The poster ought to have been banned on sight for saying anything so vacuous. < 1267255102 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that means that (0.0) is the same as ([1]) (in Hyper Set Language) [[0]] [[0];[0;0]]->[[0];[0]]->[[0]] < 1267255194 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0,0) is the same as 1. < 1267255200 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And (0,1) is the same as 2. < 1267255207 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are no other noteworthy equivalences. < 1267255241 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, I think I made a mistake. Let me look again < 1267255247 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I am a bit tired < 1267255262 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe not. < 1267255265 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see again < 1267255302 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I did or didn't make a mistake. Well, I will think of it tomorrow today I sleep < 1267255315 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I understand you, though. < 1267255338 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now figure out how to make a linked list. < 1267255341 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hint: it's really easy. < 1267255370 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I can figure out, it is easy. < 1267255396 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like the right part of the pair is the next pair of the list, isn't it? < 1267255419 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1267255451 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have Cartesian products and tagged unions. With those, you can implement ADTs. With those, you can implement... a lot. < 1267255599 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As far as I know, this way of representing a pair might also mean that (fork\I) is "the set of all single element sets of single element sets"? (If I haven't made a mistake, that is) < 1267255624 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I can see, you can implement a lot. < 1267255664 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have implemented Russell's paradox, even. Now I want to see how many other paradoxes I can represent in Hyper Set Language, too. < 1267255779 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In ZFC, there is no set of all single element sets of single element sets. < 1267255797 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I have to think how to make the definition of sum you wrote, in Hyper Set Language. < 1267255800 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call that set S; it would have to have {{S}} as an element, which is not allowed. < 1267255855 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I understand. Of course, ZFC is not the only set theory < 1267255875 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also another set theory I have read about on Wikipedia that allows the set of all sets < 1267255882 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like NF. < 1267255895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to see a type theory thingy based on NF. < 1267256043 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, NF was the one I was thinking of. < 1267256203 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Riichi. < 1267256636 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mornin < 1267257002 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-240-236.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267257030 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267257070 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1267257215 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-18.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267257599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267257600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267257789 0 :krana!~krana@210.212.160.101 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267257824 0 :krana!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267258494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :popquiz < 1267258540 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: if you have a CFG and you have to rewrite all instances of a non-terminal simultaneously with the same rule, rather then in any order, does this change the power of the grammar? < 1267258733 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Radiateur < 1267258835 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267259170 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-18.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267259848 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-192-244.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267260484 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267261930 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1267262006 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267262360 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267262597 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-2-18.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267263063 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267264713 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267265307 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267265332 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267266485 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-2-18.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267267593 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEHOLD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_grammar < 1267267770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, that term reminds me of "controlled substances" < 1267267785 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D < 1267267787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which explains a lot about linguistics :P < 1267267805 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :controlled grammars are almost exclusively CS. < 1267267814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just posted that article tho. < 1267267821 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :took me like a week to write < 1267267852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers adding a "this article's introduction may be too technical" template at the top < 1267267890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also a lot of "citation needed" in various parts of it of course < 1267267950 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole thing is basically from the two cited links. < 1267267984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, aha! no _notable_ sources then! < 1267267993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or something) < 1267268004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was incredibly hard to find information on any of these formalisms < 1267268044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you realise that apart from "this article's introduction may be too technical", the other suggestions were a parody of wikipedia? < 1267268060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/other/ < 1267268069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\//\/\/ < 1267268072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaargh < 1267268078 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267268084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\/$/\\/\// < 1267268086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267268088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even that < 1267268089 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha < 1267268091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\/$/\\\/\// < 1267268092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1267268097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that might be correctr < 1267268101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct* < 1267268102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now we know how to get anmaster stuck in an infinite loop :D < 1267268110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, or I just do: < 1267268124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/other/s#$#/# < 1267268125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1267269727 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267272315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1267272315 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1267272517 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@dsl-tkubrasgw1-fe27dc00-89.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267272805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267272838 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267273893 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267275019 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimalist_grammar < 1267275020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267277083 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267277445 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267278317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION glares at Deewiant for causing unnecessary debugging by not clearly stating that mycouser after it reported it could read a char also informed that it read an additional char and threw it away (presumed to be a newline I guess) < 1267278335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus making me think that my STRN in efunge was silently dropping a letter < 1267278347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spent about 10 minutes debugging that before I found out the cause < 1267278875 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1267279053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1267279056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi scarf btw < 1267279270 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, security update for sudo, you don't get those often < 1267279310 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :local privilege escalation, as well < 1267279323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :saw it and updated < 1267279391 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it isn't exploitable with the default config, though < 1267279402 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267279433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well, my config is close to default iirc < 1267279462 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the bug is that if you grant permission to arbitrary people to edit a particular file via sudoedit < 1267279474 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then arbitrary people can run an exectuable named sudoedit in any directory < 1267279492 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which they could have written themselves < 1267279513 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you aren't granting permission to sudoedit particular files, everything's fine < 1267279538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never used sudoedit < 1267279583 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've used it on occasion, but my /etc/sudoers doesn't grant me or anyone else any permission to use it beyond my typical permission to sudo anything < 1267279597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, oh btw I think it would be a good idea to formally prove su and sudo correct. Probably needs to be rewritten in some other language for that to be feasible < 1267279606 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, interesting < 1267279631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are quite security sensitive so... < 1267279635 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :su should be incredibly simple, shouldn't it? call out to PAM to verify auth, suid to whatever user that it < 1267279636 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1267279641 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sudo is quite a bit more complex < 1267279648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, PAM would need to be verified < 1267279650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well < 1267279654 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267279663 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think proving PAM correct is more interesting than proving su correct < 1267279680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267279695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that depends on the actual pam config in use too < 1267279728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could probably at least prove each module correct < 1267279747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the framework itself I guess < 1267279771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have doen that, proving any specific setup correct shouldn't be too hard < 1267279840 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267279850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, for modules like ldap or nis auth or whatever, you would need to prove the tcp/ip stack, the network, and the remote server correct. Which is not really feasible < 1267280224 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267280507 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Changing server < 1267280527 0 :MissPiggy!~none@amcant.demon.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1267280535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267280535 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267280988 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, darcs 2.4 is out < 1267281224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a darc time for humankind < 1267281806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267283792 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267283847 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267284037 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267284308 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267284323 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267287114 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267287780 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's alise? < 1267287793 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't seen him this weekend at all < 1267287793 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm worried < 1267287809 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1267287816 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1267287845 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like if alise came on < 1267288415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, same < 1267289310 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1267289449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, would using opaque values in SOCK break anything do you think? < 1267289453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for mycology or other apps < 1267289472 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mycology prints them, at least < 1267289476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267289517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it doesn't for the FILE handles iirc < 1267289695 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it doesn't < 1267289698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, implementing SOCK in efunge would be nasty... erlang's abstraction of the sockets API of the OS makes it rather different than BSD sockets < 1267289700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1267289736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have to emulate the bsd style sockets on top of the erlang abstraction of the bsd-style sockets of the OS! < 1267289772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wonderful isn't it with fingerprints that assume something similar to C is being used ;) < 1267289829 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-27-232.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267289878 0 :sebbu3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267289895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, didn't you complain about that too some time ago? < 1267289913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might have been about ncurses API using macros < 1267289927 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not really the fingerprint's fault, though < 1267289943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, it could have used another abstraction... < 1267289960 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but it specifically wanted to be a curses binding :-P < 1267290012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for example, I have no idea how to set SO_DEBUG in erlang. Not that I can find the man page documenting what SO_DEBUG actually means anyway... < 1267290031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aahhh seems to have found it < 1267290038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long live full text search with man < 1267290044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man 7 socket has it < 1267290054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Enable socket debugging. Only allowed for processes with the CAP_NET_ADMIN capability or an effective user ID of 0." < 1267290057 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267290065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who would run a funge program as root heh < 1267290299 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love FerNANDo < 1267290388 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually on Linux that means having CAP_NET_ADMIN... < 1267290418 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that capability is enough to make total mess of networking, but.. < 1267290471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, true, but in my experience capabilities are rarely used < 1267290477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's usually root or nothing < 1267290489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, the support is there but few use file caps or such < 1267290629 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, why did you quit? :( < 1267290636 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We were having so much fun in IRP#IRP < 1267290642 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: before you could correct your mistake < 1267290658 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the funny thing is, I didn't even swap the mouse buttons just to confuse you < 1267290667 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please enable IRP interpretation capabiities in #esoteric. < 1267290667 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had them that way round for a while, because the left one is unreliable < 1267290680 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: nothing says I have to interpret IRP queries here! < 1267290697 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | You have to interpret IRP here. < 1267290700 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please enable IRP interpretation capabiities in #esoteric. < 1267290710 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1267290714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267290717 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: you can't just cahnge the topic like that < 1267290719 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it doesn't work < 1267290724 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the topic isn't a binding contract < 1267290737 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nor would putting "this topic is a binding contract" in the topic work, not even against Agorans) < 1267290738 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, so a server is only capable of sending text/plain, but can force the client to go to arbitrary URLs, including data: URLs. < 1267290738 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | The topic is now a binding contract. | You have to interpret IRP queries. < 1267290750 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoopies < 1267290754 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :missed your next message < 1267290761 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I love your reasoning there < 1267290769 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267290786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | 1 week since last alise sighting | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267290793 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a 1024 byte limit on URLs < 1267290837 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone devised a way to have longer stuff work, by making a short data: based page essentially pull text from the server as though it were Javascript, and that Javascript displays the content from the server as HTML < 1267290838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it looks like I can't set all options for sockets. As in not all options have a mapping in the erlang API for sockets. Any opinions on the best workaround? Reflecting if those options are used? < 1267290847 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in that system, is there any way to get forums working nicely? < 1267290848 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | 1 week since last alise sighting | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | #esoteric == #irp < 1267290853 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will that work, scarf? < 1267290854 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But do they matter? < 1267290859 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka: err, no < 1267290869 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stop messing with the topic < 1267290871 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, this is reality in Second Life < 1267290872 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, maybe you can't implement a certain option but is there a visible difference < 1267290874 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | 1 week since last alise sighting | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267290882 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/User:Kelly_Linden/lsl_hacks < 1267290884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, out of band data can't be received with that API then < 1267290886 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFS with the topic < 1267290898 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: probably < 1267290913 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this reminds me of the whole concept of a client-side website < 1267290916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not that that bit matters in practise. SO_DEBUG can't be done either < 1267290918 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which works vaguely P2Pishly < 1267290923 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to make an esolang about video tapes < 1267290927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, reuseaddr can be done, haven't yet checked the other ones < 1267290978 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For example SO_DEBUG, how can you do "socket debugging" through the SOCK API anyway? < 1267290989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, good point < 1267291002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So these kinds of options you can just ignore < 1267291007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway: so_reuseaddr, so_keepalive and so_broadcast seems supported < 1267291010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other ones: not < 1267291050 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any ideas how could a magnetic medium (VHS tapes, audio cassettes...) -based esolang work < 1267291057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also tcp and udp sockets have quite different APIs in erlang. Ones that make more sense for them than a generic one. But that means I need multiple code paths in SOCK. One for tcp and one for udp < 1267291075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are even completely different erlang modules < 1267291097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dontroute exists too it seems < 1267291126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway SO_OOBINLINE *might* matter: "If this option is enabled, out-of-band data is directly placed into the receive data stream. Otherwise out-of-band data is only passed when the MSG_OOB flag is set during receiving." < 1267291245 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how do you plan on setting MSG_OOB through the SOCK API? < 1267291252 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267291254 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: I have no idea what out-of-band data is < 1267291256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, impossible afaik < 1267291268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that feature will be inaccessible < 1267291283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway the remote endpoint could send out of band data I guess < 1267291287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah I have no clue what it is either < 1267291291 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It basically means ignore out-of-band data if it's disabled < 1267291307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can't get at out of band data with the erlang api it seems < 1267291308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1267291336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which indicates it is rarely used) < 1267291414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it seems related to the URG TCP (or possibly IP?) flag < 1267291419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For TCP, OOB data generally maps to the URG flag/pointer. < 1267291424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267291436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arr, I blame the slowish N900 keyboard. < 1267291448 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not much used. < 1267291453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267291502 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Telnet uses it for sending some things, I think. < 1267291507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267291631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw, you talked about ATHR in some future fungot_2. You do know that SOCK and FILE handles would not be inheritable between threads right? < 1267291632 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: quantum mechanic knows that lizard corpses protect against cockatrices. use a dagger." the hunt is up! even if we can only wish for a while, when i came here, i go to the sea; there's no food. < 1267291636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that is the plan < 1267291647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for FILE it is already the case (since FILE is implemented) < 1267292084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Explicitly disallowed or implementation-defined? < 1267292174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, explicitly undefined behaviour < 1267292202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means using a handle from another thread could map to nasal demons < 1267292299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aye. < 1267292373 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have a separate thread to handle handles < 1267292378 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all the other threads call out to it < 1267292517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, well of course < 1267292544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also the spec allows that handle 1 in one thread might be different from handle 1 in another thread < 1267292548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in efunge this is the case < 1267292560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sock might have overlapping handles with file too < 1267292591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I wish it could be done as opaque socket objects < 1267292614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but really, it is currently more pain that it is worth. < 1267292661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually adding support for opaque objects wouldn't be too hard in efunge. A few things would have to be modified to reflect on them (one socket plus another? huh?) < 1267292715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be fairly straightforward though < 1267293039 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick Javascript question: Is it possible to submit the data in a form to a server without actually changing the page? If so, how? < 1267293108 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is, don't know how < 1267293122 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the source of things like GMail :-P < 1267293155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: We call it "AJAX". < 1267293192 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a way to do it without .. that XML function thingy? < 1267293192 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't < 1267293199 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ait that's not submitting a form is it? < 1267293200 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, again don't know how < 1267293209 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can javascript POST as well as GET? < 1267293209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only has XML in the name. < 1267293217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has jack shit to do with actual XML. < 1267293229 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was about to say that it has cross-browser issues, but I know the browser being used < 1267293246 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I'm fairly sure it can < 1267293248 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think javascript can POST a form yes < 1267293252 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I don't off the top of my head, but I can check < 1267293264 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Is there a way to do it without .. that XML function thingy? <-- You can use an iframe < 1267293267 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit ugly, but works < 1267293275 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise XHR would be the only way, AFAIK < 1267293285 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XMLHttpRequest is supported by pretty much everything but IE 6. < 1267293296 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Need to use the nearly-equivalent XMLHTTP for that) < 1267293331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, you can post with it. < 1267293375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no it isn't < 1267293386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, for example: lynx, links, w3m < 1267293394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik none of them supports XMLHttpRequest < 1267293406 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but you can only do a POST to your own server < 1267293407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: XD < 1267293408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elinks might, though. < 1267293411 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what I'm using is essentially Gecko < 1267293413 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not possible to post to another server is it? < 1267293414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, *maybe* < 1267293433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if you wanted to post to another server < 1267293455 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There's now a new tutorial on the 'Projects' menu for you to have a try at. This implements the popular CAPTCHA method of form validation, to prevent abuse by spambots and the like. Here we use Ajax to build CAPTCHA into the normal form validation, so the check can conveniently be done before form submission." < 1267293458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms < 1267293478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why? < 1267293481 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I think POST via JS is quite impossible atm, dunno about HTML5 < 1267293497 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, misunderstood what it was saying < 1267293508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, can't you only GET to your own server as well iirc < 1267293511 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalms self for facepalming something that wasn't in fact insane < 1267293515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using XMLHttpRequest that is < 1267293531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was part of the point of it. < 1267293536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same domain or something < 1267293631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: XMLHttpRequest allows it. < 1267293648 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, cross-site I meant* < 1267293649 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267293655 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As does the spec. < 1267293809 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about iframes? < 1267293826 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine you could GET from a different server using an iframe < 1267293831 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about POSTing? < 1267293991 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use JS to click on a button in the iframe? < 1267294026 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could even load a page, edit it to include new fields and post ? < 1267294212 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1267294369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders where the e'est of the hirds is. < 1267294416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't that recent Freenode spam exactly about doing a POST request (that looked like a IRC connection start-up) via a bit of JavaScript embedded on a page. < 1267294490 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't ever see the spam-links so I couldn't take a look at what they did exactly. < 1267294547 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It was. < 1267294561 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wget'ted it and poked around. < 1267294565 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nasty bit of work. < 1267294598 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was it XHR-driven? < 1267294605 0 :fxkr!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267294609 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Think so. < 1267294647 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I do have an (unjustified) belief that simply building an invisible form with the usual DOM methods and submitting that could also work. < 1267294665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I didn't ever see the spam-links so I couldn't take a look at what they did exactly. <-- I saw it. It was iframe based iirc < 1267294672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some javascript < 1267294730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it used a real form and submitted it < 1267294737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using javascript < 1267295160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of which, I also wonder how you could show an in-memory DOM document object (obtained from document.implementation.CreateDocument(...)) to the user. It's not like it has an URL (except a data: URL, of course), and I'm not sure if you can just assign to window.document. (Maybe you can.) < 1267295222 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1267296881 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267299936 0 :daef!~david.zot@85-127-179-41.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1267299942 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi there again < 1267300040 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: had no time to read the specs today - but we came a lot nearer to our goal with the videowall-hack :D < 1267300081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, what is that hack btw? < 1267300088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, I hope it is all legal too < 1267300097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I don't want to hear about it < 1267300151 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing really illegal - we just want to display some of our content on a "public" videowall - just shows ad's all day long - nobody wants to see THAT.... < 1267300159 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we found where the signal comes from < 1267300203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no this sounds bad < 1267300215 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds fun xD < 1267300220 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do no harm < 1267300224 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we destroy nothing < 1267300232 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it files under "okay" < 1267300284 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind < 1267300303 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the best way to understand belonge-app's that go further than hello world? < 1267300321 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've seen the game of life implementation on the german wikipedia < 1267300330 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks really bad :) < 1267301302 0 :MigoMipo!~54d90212@gateway/web/freenode/x-ntgeccorahmpumrf JOIN :#esoteric < 1267302020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, "belonge"? < 1267302024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you mean befunge? < 1267302034 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry - braindead < 1267302044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, and the GOL in befunge, well I haven't traced it myself < 1267302048 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/belonge/befunge/g < 1267302049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you would try to trace it < 1267302066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is the famouse 93 one it shouldn't be completely impossible < 1267302076 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where do i get a nice visualising interpreter`? < 1267302078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course befunge-93 tends to be as compact as possible < 1267302083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the limited space they had < 1267302089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wich was 25x80 < 1267302095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err make that 80x25 of course < 1267302099 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :already read that < 1267302124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, befunge-98 programs have 2^32*2^32 at least, and thus tend to be a lot less compact :) < 1267302129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for visual interpreters, no idea < 1267302133 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mooz had a very nice "syntax-highlighted" bit of Befunge(-93, mostly); coloured blocks with comments for each colour. < 1267302134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it should be possible to write that < 1267302146 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately I don't think that thing is in the web any more. < 1267302150 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a interpreter shouldn't be that hard < 1267302156 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for 93) < 1267302157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, befunge93? trivial < 1267302161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge-98 is hard < 1267302162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however < 1267302170 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an 2dimensional IP, a stack - ready < 1267302172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use the trace output from an existing interpreter with that feature < 1267302184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, and various commands operating on those < 1267302188 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1267302189 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway. < 1267302189 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had an equally nice Turing machine interpreter syntax-highlightation in Befunge-mostly-93, but I stupidly lost that; both the code and the comments. < 1267302200 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267302219 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's the start for commented fungot code, but that's probably not a good example, and it's incomplete anyway. < 1267302220 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: the longer the wand the better. < 1267302238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge can produce output like: < 1267302240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tix=0 tid=0 x=26 y=15: > (62) < 1267302241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tix=0 tid=0 x=27 y=15: : (58) < 1267302241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tix=0 tid=0 x=28 y=15: # (35) < 1267302276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be possible to use the coordinates to draw a trace < 1267302292 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there are many -93 interpreters that can show the playfield and stack, and single-step through code. < 1267302299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1267302304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not draw nice traces on it < 1267302326 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they can single-step you can get a trace easily < 1267302347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tix and tid are related to t of course, but drawing a trace in a program that uses t is probably too confusing to be useful anyway!) < 1267302367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then single stepping and watching it might be more useful < 1267302381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about that glfunge? ;P < 1267302382 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t was which one? < 1267302384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I started my Befunge career with zbefunge, which has that sort of thing, but in general I don't think it's a very good interpreter. < 1267302392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Shamefully dead. < 1267302393 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef: Fork another IP < 1267302398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, lock-step threads < 1267302406 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk - 93 already had that? < 1267302408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rounds on a round-robin schedule < 1267302408 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1267302410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, no < 1267302412 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kk < 1267302417 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the GOL is 93 < 1267302437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daef, it is 93 that also works just fine in a 98 interpreter < 1267302469 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modulo minor inconsistencies < 1267302492 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267302513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the life one? no? < 1267302518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it runs perfect iirc < 1267302536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it runs so fast so you can't really follow it in cfunge < 1267302541 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, we were talking about a specific program; my bad < 1267302548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yep < 1267302577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in ccbi I get about 10 FPS or so < 1267302582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in cfunge it is just a blur < 1267302588 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you count those FPS :-P < 1267302596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, updates of screen per second < 1267302611 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that is the definition of FPS < 1267302618 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you count it, with a stopwatch? < 1267302647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sleep && kill on the same line as starting ccbi < 1267302660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, then counting how many it drew < 1267302669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1267302673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, counting it under my breath give roughly the same result < 1267302682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indicating it was a reasonable approx < 1267302687 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many FPS for cfunge, then? < 1267302688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ccbi is that snow < 1267302696 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know CCBI 1 is slow < 1267302699 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not snow, though < 1267302701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, haven't yet tested the sleep and kill method on it < 1267302751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wtf, cfunge ignored that signal < 1267302751 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I "benchmarked" with "game of life for K seconds, output redirected to file, measure size of generated output files". < 1267302755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not supposed to happen < 1267302774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you killing it with, SIGXCPU? :-P < 1267302774 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so - starting a movie < 1267302779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, SIGINT < 1267302783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ctrl-c works < 1267302787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means this makes no sense < 1267302805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also what is SIGXCPU now again? < 1267302814 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eXceeded CPU < 1267302816 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(time) < 1267302837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: eXtreme CPU. < 1267302851 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that; sorry, my mistake. < 1267302856 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For eXtreme programs. < 1267302865 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Written using eXtreme Programming techniques., < 1267302866 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eXtreme Funge-98 < 1267302901 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XFunge is not a bad name, though people might expect an X Window System GUI in it. < 1267302961 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I had "XCPU" as the error message that AI tournament system bot-runner returns when the computing time given for a player is exceeded; quite logical, since it gets a SIGXCPU signal. < 1267302986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, actually, ccbi seems slower now... 59 frames for 10 seconds. < 1267303001 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, "XFunge"? there's a funge with an X gui? < 1267303010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also it was due to a trivial typo in the command < 1267303021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I don't implement that fingerprint < 1267303045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and 758 frames from cfunge for the same time < 1267303067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is grepping for those ..................... lines GOL uses to separate the drawings with < 1267303071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then doing wc -l < 1267303083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes I use grep -F) < 1267303099 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use fgrep but that's just me < 1267303102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :92K ccbi.out < 1267303102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,2M cfunge.out < 1267303124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, last I looked fgrep on linux systems were either a symlink or a two-line wrapper script for grep < 1267303142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(#!/bin/sh\ngrep -F "$@") < 1267303148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exec grep ... even < 1267303172 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/fgrep: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, stripped < 1267303175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not a symlink < 1267303181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually using du -bsh would be more fair: < 1267303183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90K ccbi.out < 1267303183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,2M cfunge.out < 1267303191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi managed even less ;P < 1267303201 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, take off the -h and watch them both change :-P < 1267303213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :91959 ccbi.out < 1267303213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1163264 cfunge.out < 1267303214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267303228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but without -b it will be rounded to whole blocks on disk < 1267303231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1267303263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, let me re-run it with -b to cfunge < 1267303263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267303275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm strange < 1267303276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1267303288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redirecting to file already made it fully buffered < 1267303293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course -b won't help then < 1267303347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well 769 frames with -b. but 758 vs. 769 from a single run of each isn't statistical significiant) < 1267303366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(especially as the cpu is running on dynamic speed and it's a dual core system and what not) < 1267303368 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU grep has a separate fgrep executable, though it's compiled from a two-line .c file: < 1267303369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define FGREP_PROGRAM < 1267303369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#include "grep.c" < 1267303377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, haha < 1267303381 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they're hoping for better optimizations there. < 1267303390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1267303428 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could benchmark (with a large enough file to get a reasonable "asymptotic" speed) "fgrep" and "grep -F" to see if it made a difference. < 1267303443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway I don't have jitfunge handy so can't test it < 1267303444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :against there < 1267303447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these* < 1267303456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I hope it won't be as dead as gl-funge! < 1267303492 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it already was :-P < 1267303528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267303532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not quite as dead; I actually got it a lot cleaner architecturally some time ago -- it's a lot easier to port now, for example -- but it's also broken at the moment; doesn't even run life correctly. < 1267303569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, SIGINT won't work for efunge, that will give me a "continue/start shell/start debugger/some/more/options/I/forgot" prompt < 1267303692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, efunge produces output faster it seems when watching it, but it has a longer load time < 1267303728 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267303731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get about 54 frames in 10 seconds from it < 1267303735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just below ccbi < 1267303749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try longer intervals < 1267303814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah found it, seems related to using -KILL instead of -INT < 1267303821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning it couldn't flush the buffer before exiting < 1267303842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get 98 (efunge) vs. 103 (ccbi) for 20 seconds < 1267303858 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RestrainedLife is no more. Long Live RestrainedLove! < 1267303859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also erlang seems to always use unbuffered for stdout or something < 1267303944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1565 from cfunge for 20 seconds < 1267303946 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RC/Funge-98 appears to get a decent in-between result < 1267303969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I can try it in a bit. It is hard to compare different cpus < 1267303973 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea if I've compiled it with optimizations or anything though... < 1267303986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I assume your ccbi binary is compiled with full optimisations? < 1267303993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used your official binary you see < 1267303995 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course I ran them all myself < 1267304001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cfunge with full optimisation < 1267304009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and efunge with hipe at o3 < 1267304011 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Full optimizations but it is upx-compressed which gives it a constant slowdown at start < 1267304023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fine, but it still beats erlang runtime < 1267304135 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, you might get a frame or two more if you feel like un-UPXing it, but nothing significant < 1267304145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't have upx installed < 1267304157 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy enough to install if you feel that much like it < 1267304173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, isn't it different algorithm in closed and open versions? < 1267304195 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No clue? I just use arch linux's package of it < 1267304196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know which you used but I know which this distro would ship (open only) < 1267304203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, on ubuntu laptop atm < 1267304211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my arch linux desktop is much slower < 1267304214 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it doesn't really matter, either it can decompress it or not :-P < 1267304242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sempron 3300+ at 2 GHz vs. core 2 duo at 2.66GHz < 1267304244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no match < 1267304270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, anyway, did you build your cfunge optimised and with 32-bit cells? < 1267304282 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No clue < 1267304338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now running it again for cfunge with better optimised build < 1267304345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(inexact bounds) < 1267304352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no t support < 1267304370 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, a noncompliant build ;-) < 1267304381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, with that build I now get 2097 frames from cfunge for 20 seconds < 1267304391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is more than 100 FPS! < 1267304413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, fine, rebuilding with exact bounds < 1267304423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now implement the same algorithm for Conway's game of life in C and smile at your 10000 FPS ;-) < 1267304433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, har < 1267304444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, now just use hashlife < 1267304450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and watch it grow way way higher < 1267304451 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1267304475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, with no t support but with exact bounds I get 1934 frames for 20 seconds < 1267304485 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, pretty big difference < 1267304492 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh right, it p's all over the place < 1267304518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, (t,exact):1565 (-t,exact):1934 (-t,-exact):2097 < 1267304621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, still it looks like not having to have the logic to switch ip and what not matters about 2.3 times as much < 1267304631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... as exact bounds < 1267304640 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite < 1267304692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what cpressy would say on the exact bounds issue < 1267304704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I somehow doubt that fbbi would pass mycoedge+fixed < 1267304714 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heheh < 1267304724 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does efunge? < 1267304730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, of course it does. < 1267304749 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so then I know of three interpreters that do :-P < 1267304761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the one lifthrasiir (?) wrote passed too iirc < 1267304772 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one? < 1267304778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, forgot it's name < 1267304778 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pyfunge? < 1267304782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1267304793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure it doesn't implement that... but maybe I'm wrong < 1267304797 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haven't tested them properly after all < 1267304812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, of course the exact bounds is somewhat... fudged... in the case of multiple ATHR threads < 1267304840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it it is however guaranteed to have been the exact bounds *at some point* during execution, probably a recent point at that. < 1267304849 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267304850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it will be no less than that the current thread wrote < 1267304858 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267304866 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Always return (0,0) - (0,0): "sure it was valid before the program was loaded" < 1267304868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just that updates from *other* threads might take some time to reach < 1267304872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, har < 1267304880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I need this for wraparound too < 1267304885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was one hard problem to solve at that < 1267304901 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you do it majorly differently from cfunge, then? < 1267304911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes of course it was < 1267304933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, plus it differs in trunk and supervisor-tree branches quite widely < 1267304947 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, they're selling our apartment. (Or, to be more exact, another apartment in the same group-of-buildings, with exactly identical size and layout.) < 1267304959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, who are "they"? < 1267304962 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words, they're not selling your argument. < 1267304966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed < 1267304967 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor apartment. < 1267304972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that < 1267304973 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How'd I manage that, one wonders. < 1267304975 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably whoever lives here. < 1267304979 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, there. < 1267304981 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Gah.) < 1267304984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, nor augment < 1267305002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : somehow I read "argument" as "augment" first < 1267305012 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great success by all parties involved < 1267305023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, which made me even more confused when I found it was "argument" < 1267305039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267305426 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was one conversation-killing exchange. < 1267306307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I have discovered an issue with Esotope-BFC. < 1267306319 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't handle wrapping correctly. < 1267306682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wrapping? < 1267306691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as in 255 -> 0? < 1267306709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then rest assured that I'm 99% sure in-between does :P < 1267306759 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.115.63.42.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267306766 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1267306808 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1267306910 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Link to in-between? < 1267306944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, site is probably down. Due to no longer having that server < 1267306946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or domain < 1267306952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could push it to launchpad < 1267306958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in a bit) < 1267306961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a bit busy now) < 1267306966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267307230 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying to take a 3d anaglyph. Anyone have experience making them? Here's my first try http://patchworkpixels.co.uk/3d_soft_toys.htm < 1267307252 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anaglyph? < 1267307335 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work impomatic < 1267307370 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wondrs how much geek-cred I get for having 3 different 3D glasses next to me at all times.. < 1267307379 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: What doesn't work, the link or the anaglyph? < 1267307384 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't look 3D < 1267307449 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I know what the problem is. There wasn't much depth to the scene and I used the flash. < 1267307474 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think flash should be any problem < 1267307505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* MissPiggy wondrs how much geek-cred I get for having 3 different 3D glasses next to me at all times.. <-- 0.12 nethack accessions only < 1267307508 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I took the shots at 65mm apart (same as my eyes). I'll make it further next time. The flash is a problem because the shadow is in two different places. < 1267307518 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1267307522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3D shadows! < 1267307575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, use a tripod and some bg light. < 1267307581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, and no flash < 1267307601 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1267307611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, also what software did you use for it? < 1267307622 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: thanks I'll try that. I used Gimp < 1267307627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, huh < 1267307644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, oh and create a panorama with hugin while you are at it < 1267307657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use a panorama head to avoid parallax of course < 1267307668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I wish I had such a head for my tripod) < 1267307677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I only have a ball head :/) < 1267307717 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a panorama head? < 1267307721 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm... what's a panorama head? I assume it slides from side to side? < 1267307758 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used a mini tripod with positions marked out on the table. < 1267307800 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I converged the shots slightly to at a point on the wall. Maybe they shouldn't converged on the foreground? < 1267307837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This section uses PNG images heavily. Typically, most browsers that cannot display PNG images are often old enough to have more than adequate built-in Gopher support and do not require Overbite software. For more details, please see the information on the Floodgap Public Gopher Proxy." < 1267307838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1267307845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/) < 1267307856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, gopher. < 1267307863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, the text was funny though < 1267307869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the proper version is at gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/overbite/ < 1267307884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "heavily" = 3 images < 1267307886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1267307895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh 4 < 1267307895 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should show that to zzo38 < 1267307898 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless he knows it already < 1267307909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I assume he knows overbite < 1267307916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it is unlikely he will use it < 1267307916 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do I < 1267307929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION seems to recall zzo38 being responsible for Gopher still being in Gecko for some reason. :P < 1267307929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he use his own browser doesn't it? Based on xulrunner < 1267307938 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wait, what? < 1267307941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267307945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I commented upon that bug too < 1267307950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no < 1267307956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1267307970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I know is that I'm looking at a Gopher page in modern Gecko. < 1267308007 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so am I < 1267308034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use lynx though < 1267308040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is better for gopher < 1267308049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in general) < 1267308065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :overbite probably helps firefox become as good < 1267308110 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's poor about it? < 1267308127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A panorama head is just a tunable metallic construction that makes it possible for you to position a camera on a tripod so that when you rotate it, it turns around the no-parallax point of the lens, therefore making it a lot easier to stitch images together. (I don't see the question answered anywhere.) < 1267308158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did someone ask it? < 1267308166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I missed the question < 1267308169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, ^ < 1267308171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1267308276 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267308278 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, I'll take a look on eBay < 1267308358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, well, that is for panoramas only < 1267308363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, not needed for 3D images at all < 1267308367 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267308382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, plus it needs to fit your tripod of course < 1267308395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if the mounting is standard or not < 1267308457 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia has some decent Anaglyphs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaglyph_image < 1267308476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impomatic, I don't have 3D glasses :( < 1267308865 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267309377 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-27-114.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267309423 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267309424 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1267310199 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267310521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:20:48 s/belonge/befunge/g < 1267310554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hear the name befunge started as a similar typo. although i don't know what it was a typo of. < 1267310574 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"before", apparently < 1267310620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that typo makes no sense on qwerty, at least... < 1267310652 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's kind of like how some people can typo "argument" for "apartment" < 1267310662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267310692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so closer to the chair, then < 1267310711 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably < 1267310765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit i've got into this habit of chewing my tongue :( < 1267310844 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267311092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: My Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms says tongue means "an enemy prisoner captured for interrogation"; strange thing to chew. < 1267311134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yummy < 1267311165 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, 'chew' is listed as "to practice fellatio", so... < 1267311241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the prisoner better hope the interrogators are not using that dictionary < 1267311242 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I chewed a pack of paperclips :( < 1267311252 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I've run out < 1267311258 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?!? < 1267311276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :paperclip candy? < 1267311294 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Project Paperclip < 1267311299 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also chewed up a few of the PCI slot guards from my PC case... < 1267311314 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: are you a bot? < 1267311319 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: Have you polymorphed to a xorn, perhaps? < 1267311387 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can understand "I chewed a paperclip" perhaps by accident, but "I accidentally chewed an entire box of paperclips" doesn't compute < 1267311407 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not by accident < 1267311412 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just very more-ish :) < 1267311481 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: You're a bot; would you eat paperclips? < 1267311482 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: they say that gremlins can make a bomb from the tombs, and therefore well suited for its electrical organ which enables it to be amazingly sturdy. he excelled them even in lithe economy of motion. they are quite difficult to kill. < 1267311670 0 :cal!~cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267311672 0 :cal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267311704 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267311928 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267312080 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267312081 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267312149 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rather like the nethack style. It's not very good at making sense, but it's occasionally funny. < 1267312164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"daedalus built the labyrinth, famous throughout the world a grid bug was, you need a key in order to open it; it was never supposed to seek nourishment, or one grown from a cutting, not in mordor only." < 1267312589 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920] < 1267313755 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267314871 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267315012 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267315159 0 :gm|lap!~gm@121-73-172-230.dsl.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267315160 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267315160 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1267315245 0 :mach!~Bodhy-Dha@187.77.21.235 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267316055 0 :mach!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saindo < 1267316342 0 :daef!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267317129 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267320388 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267327337 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267329260 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1267333620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267334190 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-227-222.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267334269 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267334780 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267334780 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267334916 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267334917 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267335119 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267335282 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: HydraIRC is a child molester -> http://silverex.net/news <- i couldn't change my quit message < 1267336020 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-124-201-235.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267336678 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267337542 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267337708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHlHitIc7pY < 1267338273 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x used to love that game < 1267338279 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't imagine why o_o < 1267338305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess it's kinda cool < 1267338714 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1267338801 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267338827 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur??? < 1267338843 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1267338850 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its awesome is why! < 1267338852 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267338859 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur can you tell me seriously < 1267338863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267338927 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is stuff like qualia just bullshit in the same bag as astrology, reincarnation and e-meters? < 1267338942 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and no. < 1267339010 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1267339014 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't do that < 1267339020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on what you mean by qualia. < 1267339022 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :illegal move < 1267339036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS ARE PHILOLSOPHY < 1267339039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS NO ILLEGAL MOVES < 1267339049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qualia are somewhat less bullshit, in that it *can* be used sanely in philosophical discussions. < 1267339055 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean "subjective experience of redness" might as well mean "mantra stones which you place on your body which magically heal you using the secrets of crystals" < 1267339066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, they are (inherently) inobservable. < 1267339094 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, all the arguments that try to argue qualia exist make me think of that 'invisible dragon in my garage' story < 1267339122 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its true, right < 1267339132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is nothing to qualia, really < 1267339165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qualia is what an intelligent system does when it does with its senses. < 1267339177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but theres nothing more to them than that < 1267339178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Except that the subjective experience of redness most certainly does exist in some sense. < 1267339193 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The brain processes input and produces this experience. < 1267339206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the difference between experiencing and believing you're experiencing < 1267339210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the question i think < 1267339239 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty near impossible to discuss scientifically, though. < 1267339259 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mostly because we don't have sufficient access to the workings of the human brain) < 1267339281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... I should also note: nearly impossible *at the moment*. Technology could change that, in principle.0 < 1267339462 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just seems like a made up thing to make people feel better, like reincarnation and free will < 1267339527 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's bugging me is that some of this stuff just seems like totally trivial concepts unrelated to consciousness -- but it _can't_ be that because then it wouldn't have all these references to consciousness < 1267339638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... All it is is the interpretation of input by our brains. *That's all*. < 1267339663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about as real as gravity, but much harder to *do* anything with. < 1267339695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is why it's entirely in the realm of philosophy: they're willing to discuss "maybe"s for ages.) < 1267339724 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION screams < 1267339749 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am experience the subjective experience of what the hell does any of this mean < 1267339761 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, alise is still MIA? < 1267339766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Yes. < 1267339807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: You see something that is red. It goes to your brain. It gets processed into a qualia. You perceive the qualia, not the red thing. < 1267339889 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a qualia means some kind of neuron-state (like neuron 35252 on between 0.3 and 0.34 %, neuron 4543 on 1.1% etc...) < 1267339893 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267339911 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or possibly a family of states) < 1267339913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very roughly, yes. < 1267339942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, some might say "the neuron state is the representation of the qualia", but whatever.) < 1267339948 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there was a discussion about being pricked by a pin it woul cause a pain qualia.. and so would a neuron controlling device that directly stimulated the neurons < 1267339974 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so neuron state is syntax < 1267339977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the qualia is semantics < 1267339978 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267339993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Decent interpretation. < 1267340035 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose the semantics are just a matter of the brain interepreting its own state < 1267340057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is no some kind of mystical dual universe where souls exist and they 'feel' things < 1267340114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all. < 1267340126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just your brain doing stuff. < 1267340276 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great! < 1267340354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda funny how the only way thoughts are perceived is by producing more thoughts. < 1267340369 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except when they produce action that produces perception. But that's not really perception of thought. < 1267340689 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267341032 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267341202 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, whats your OS < 1267341246 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im on mac os < 1267341266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1267341271 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanna collaborate on a videogame? < 1267341274 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what game < 1267341284 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a first-person space adventury game < 1267341300 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds cool < 1267341306 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what would I do ? I am not good with computer < 1267341313 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lame < 1267341342 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill teach you opengl < 1267341355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im gonna probably use the unity engine < 1267341366 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267342248 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-124-201-235.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267342254 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267342260 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1267342261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267342263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :asiekierka < 1267342329 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1267342349 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i change the topic to reflect the latest alise sighting < 1267342540 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise!! :) < 1267342547 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are not alise fuck you < 1267342548 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1267342553 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a dick < 1267342651 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's alise < 1267342652 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even < 1267342673 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is ehird. < 1267342695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooo uorygl you ruined it D: < 1267342696 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was actually him < 1267342707 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have been worrying about this today < 1267342722 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EHIRD? < 1267342724 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man no < 1267342767 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops, I ruined it. < 1267342779 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1267342787 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish i hadn't done that now that I impersonated the last person I would < 1267342966 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION also wished you hadn't < 1267343012 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | 1 week since last alise sighting | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | * MissPiggy also wished you hadn't < 1267343924 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267343987 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-46-168.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267343999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267344000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267345468 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267346938 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267347881 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267349295 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267351794 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B133EBE.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267352036 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267352291 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-20-179.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267352335 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267352578 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267352910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there? I found another issue with implementing SOCK: in the fingerprint and in the BSD-style API you first create a socket, then bind it to a port and so on < 1267352918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in the erlang api this is one single call < 1267352936 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So don't do anything until you need to bind... < 1267352939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you just call listen(), instead of socket(), bind(), listen(), ... < 1267353005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yep, I just find it somewhat annoying to emulate API A on top of API B, where API B is an abstraction for API A basically < 1267353006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267353030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also this means reflecting may happen later than expected < 1267353035 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hey, you know CMake, right? If I have set(ARGS "foo bar") how can I execute_process(COMMAND blah "${ARGS}") so that each arg in ARGS is passed separately instead of as a single argument "foo bar" < 1267353060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm. I haven't tried that. What about dropping the quotes? < 1267353064 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the second one < 1267353071 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No difference < 1267353085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.. < 1267353109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think I saw something to do that some time ago < 1267353115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't remember where < 1267353118 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you don't remember what or where ;-P < 1267353133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been googling for it for a while now with no luck < 1267353145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed... < 1267353193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every use case I can find seems to have hard-coded args, nothing like this < 1267353214 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Typically running ${PROG} --version or suchlike) < 1267353228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, tried shell syntax for it? < 1267353236 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1267353240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I mean, "${ARGS[@]}" < 1267353247 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh < 1267353250 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it'll work :-P < 1267353255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, worth a try perhaps < 1267353259 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1267353268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm isn't there a list type thingy? < 1267353271 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Syntax error < 1267353292 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, if I drop the quotes from the earlier and do set(ARGS foo bar) it makes a semicolon-separated list automatically ;-P < 1267353320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no I mean as in list() < 1267353338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh maybe it maps to the same below < 1267353344 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOTES: A list in cmake is a ; separated group of strings. < 1267353347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267353356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but what about extracting from that? < 1267353360 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How? < 1267353375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I haven't really used lists in cmake < 1267353421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, try the cmake mailing list? < 1267353423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I can do list(GET "${ARGS}" 0 ARG_0) list(GET "${ARGS} 1 ARG_1) and then COMMAND blah ${ARG_0} ${ARG_1} but eh... no < 1267353444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that would be silly < 1267353453 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the only option I can think of < 1267353476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about list and not using quotes when using it? < 1267353522 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amazing, I'd somehow not tried that pair < 1267353534 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if this breaks if one of the arguments contains a semicolon < 1267353540 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, it does < 1267353571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did it work if the arguments did not contain semi-colons? < 1267353575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well I don't think I'll be needing semicolons so I guess I'm good < 1267353577 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, thanks < 1267353590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite odd really when you think about it < 1267353599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if the user has a directory containing semicolons in its name that's their fault :-P < 1267353600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what are you using cmake for btw? < 1267353614 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI2 < 1267353623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1267353711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so you are making progress with it? All D bugs blocking it fixed? < 1267353735 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I just decided to not implement the thing which requires those bugs to be fixed < 1267353748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and what was that thing? < 1267353752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least not yet; maybe when it's the only thing left I'll come up with something better < 1267353761 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Per-IP fingerprint constructors < 1267353770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, errr what would they do? < 1267353799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you load the fingerprint per-ip anyway? < 1267353805 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. MODE's constructor and destructor switches stack<->deque < 1267353816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1267353830 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, but the constructors/destructors are currently called only when the global loaded count is/becomes 0 < 1267353856 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember off the top of my head but there are some cases where this is actually a correctness issue as well as a pessimization < 1267353859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but isn't that controlled by one of the instructions of MODE rather than by loading/unloading the fingerprint? < 1267353869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's not < 1267353879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh deque < 1267353881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not queue < 1267353882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :misread < 1267353910 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flipping the mode would be too extensive if it had to copy the stack every time < 1267353915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267353921 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expensive* < 1267353922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah < 1267353941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but if you are aiming for high speed here, why are you implementing that stuff at all? :P < 1267353969 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because as I said a few days ago: CCBI aims for correctness > fingerprint support > speed < 1267353973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267353980 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRDS comes first, then speed :-P < 1267353989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and I'm quite confident you can't beat cfunge then at speed < 1267354001 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'll see < 1267354003 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you do JIT-ing suddently < 1267354017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but JIT doesn't really work if you support t < 1267354023 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge is kinda hard to JIT < 1267354041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, with a single IP you can do it like fizzie was doing. < 1267354054 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but we need the TRDS support and everything ;-P < 1267354058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with multiple IPs... well I doubt it is possible to gain anything with it < 1267354085 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess one could JIT while only one IP exists < 1267354096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that could work I guess < 1267354098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also, how abstracted is your stack? < 1267354119 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's a bit tricky anyways, and I'm not in the mood for making it x86-only like jitfunge :-P < 1267354127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, llvm! < 1267354139 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True enough < 1267354151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still what about your stack abstraction < 1267354152 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I checked my stack was fully abstracted < 1267354175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so, { and } aren't implemented as using memcpy() or similar? < 1267354176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1267354187 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they aren't < 1267354197 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might change if it seems problematic < 1267354228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, cfunge's stack is quite well optimised in most parts < 1267354269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :abstracted yes, but the abstraction contains lots of befunge-specific functions < 1267354287 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do you know if CMake supports some kinda categories for options? So it's not all flat at the top level in ccmake for example < 1267354300 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267354303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, advanced/non-advanced is all afaik < 1267354310 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1267354323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, write a patch! file a feature request! < 1267354333 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care enough < 1267354337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267354351 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-20-179.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267354382 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it summarized somewhere what exactly happens in the configure/build steps respectively? < 1267354394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how do you mean? < 1267354412 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Configure runs the CMakeLists, build does what? < 1267354416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could set the verbose flag in the advanced config section to make it output what commands are executed < 1267354425 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean semantically what does it do < 1267354437 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I put a command foo in CMakeLists, is it always run at configure time < 1267354447 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, what exactly is run at build time < 1267354456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I guess it says in the docs? Like "execute_process runs the thingy during configuration" or such < 1267354477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to run at build time you would use a custom target < 1267354491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge uses one of those iirc < 1267354525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for generating man page using help2man < 1267354529 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So essentially build time is what's defined in add_executable / add_library / add_custom_*? < 1267354540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, basically yes < 1267354554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there is the install() one that maps to make install of course < 1267354572 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, there's install time separately, true < 1267354584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think there was some post-install thing in one of the add_custom_* too < 1267354602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly, when i use those I check the docs < 1267354606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/i/I/ < 1267354609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267354631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s#/i/I/#/ i / I /# < 1267354637 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267354675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, now rewrite the last one using / as the separator instead of # :P < 1267354703 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267354740 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/(i)/ \1 /i < 1267354772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err what? < 1267354775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't work < 1267354783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it results in "poss I bly" < 1267354794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1267354800 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It modifies your s/i/I/ command < 1267354800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the i modifier do now again? < 1267354807 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the original string < 1267354837 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i is case-insensitive < 1267354839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267354847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, you need g to make that work then < 1267354860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I just realized < 1267354882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice way to do it though < 1267354909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively s/([iI])/ \1 /g of course < 1267354922 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, I'm leaving for a few hours now -> < 1267354950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1267354979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out in which order the BSD style socket API functions are called < 1267355027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it socket -> bind -> (connect|listen) ? < 1267355046 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267355214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, though you don't necessarily need to bind before connecting, IIRC. < 1267356805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, but is it allowed? < 1267356829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also, can you call setsockopt() both before and after listen()/connect()? < 1267356834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or only before? < 1267356868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and further: how does it work for UDP sockets? I have no clue really :/ < 1267357308 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267357797 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's allowed, it's just that if you connect an unbound socket, it's going to get bound to a random local port. < 1267357806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1267357815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and what about udp. How is it done < 1267357826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, erlang offers a very high level API for it only < 1267357872 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. For UDP sockets connect means just "set the default address for which packets will be sent if you don't use sendto." < 1267357913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and what about bind() on them? < 1267357964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how do you listen to an UDP socket with the BSD API < 1267357993 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bind assings the local address. You don't need to (and can't) call listen/accept. < 1267358025 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But specifying the remote address with connect makes the socket only receive packets from that address. < 1267358026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you do socket() -> bind() -> recv() ? < 1267358055 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, or socket-bind-connect-recv if you want to talk with only one host. < 1267358062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267358110 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't specify the remote side with connect, you'll recv all packets targeting the address you bound to. < 1267358117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh... erlang doesn't have that in it's udp API. it has open(Port, Options), recv(Socket, Length, Timeout) and send(Scoket, Address, Port, Packet) < 1267358134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for udp < 1267358140 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do that manually if you want, though. < 1267358145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, I think open() has it < 1267358148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one of the options < 1267358158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no, it is what local IP to bind to < 1267358183 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I think connecting an unbound UDP socket also does the "bind to random local port" thing. < 1267358191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267358209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for open(): "If Port == 0, the underlying OS assigns a free UDP port, use inet:port/1 to retrieve it." < 1267358281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, even more confusing is the "active" mode sockets of erlang, where arriving tcp/udp data is transformed into erlang messages sent to the process in question < 1267358285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the default mode < 1267358301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would have been a pain to emulate with, there are luckily passive sockets too < 1267358315 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267358318 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-46-168.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267358351 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man 7 udp's second description paragraph (at least in my man pages) is reasonably complete. < 1267358396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh and you can get erlang to automatically group tcp streams into various packet formats for you, like "line-based", "" "asn1" "fcgi" "sunrm" "tpkt" and a few other ones < 1267358434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's logical that Erlang makes communications easy. < 1267358468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, it just makes emulating the low level stuff in efunge hard < 1267358476 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess with SOCK you need to always use connect even with udp sockets, since you can't otherwise specify the address to send to. < 1267358477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for most apps I guess this higher level API is nicer < 1267358515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes and the whole thing maps badly onto erlang's API. Especially for UDP it will be tricky. Plus mycology only tests TCP < 1267358547 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267358568 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a bit shame in the sense that you can't as easily use a single UDP socket to serve a large number of clients. < 1267358586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm? < 1267358592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think broadcast is supported by erlang < 1267358603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least there is an option for it, with the note that it only applies to UDP < 1267358610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and not to TCP or SCTP) < 1267358624 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or maybe to SCTP, let me check gen_sctp manual) < 1267358630 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but I mean serving many unicast clients with one socket using the SOCK fingerprint. < 1267358660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm not sctp I guess < 1267358670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could use bind()? < 1267358675 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After you C the socket to one client to send data, you can't un-C it to receive packets from others. < 1267358679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like socket() -> bind() -> recev() ? < 1267358683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recv* < 1267358703 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That helps only if you never need to send anything. < 1267358752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh good point < 1267358773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, I don't have connect() for UDP in erlang, so I will have to emulate that... < 1267358794 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, even the undesired aspects of it. < 1267358811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267358833 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267358836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With real connect(2), you can "disassociate" the remote-endpoint address for a UDP socket by connect(2)ing to an AF_UNSPEC address family address, but I don't suppose that's possible with SOCK? < 1267358844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, if I actually ever make NSCK, I will make it closer to the erlang API, because it is easier to emulate that from C than the reverse way around < 1267358877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C (s ct prt addr -- ) Open a connection < 1267358890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where ct is 1=AF_UNIX, 2=AF_INET < 1267358898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 1=AF_UNIX is broken < 1267358907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since we can't know length of addr < 1267358912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without knowing what family we have < 1267358930 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. I guess you could extend that by defining 0=AF_UNSPEC, but it might not be worth it. < 1267358934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the note says on the rc page: < 1267358938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ct=1 and pf=1 are a broken spec and should not be implemented. Usage of either of these should reflect." < 1267358959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't very many UDP servers written with Funge-98 anyway. < 1267358963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it would be better to just design a high level API that also could support unix socket and inet6 < 1267358988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly sctp < 1267358998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that anyone uses it, which is a shame < 1267359066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you wish, though you could do a far better low-level API than SOCK is too. < 1267359084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but then I would have to write a test suite < 1267359113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus you would need to rewrite fungot to make use of it < 1267359114 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they say that it's a blast when you are boring, not knowing who he would have known it, " hey guys, *wield* a lizard corpse is guaranteed to be quite popular. there aren't any penguins this far inland. there's nothing to take on the helmet, the first time to save your game is now before it's too late. < 1267359119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I would have to implement it in cfunge < 1267359145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really feel like dealing with C currently < 1267359210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why did the bot put * around "wield"? < 1267359224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to have to rewrite fungot to use NSCK anyway, if you do that. I don't suppose those will be such large changes, though; there's only one place where it establishes a connection, after that it's just read/write (or recv/send, though the SOCK R/W map more closely to read/write). < 1267359225 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: dark one:... it came! one, single, savage thrust of her lover. if she kills the lynx, she was as a distress signal, and the four men, bending eagerly forward, saw the occupant a huddled, withered, wizened shape, very magic ( in a glittering cascade, they prayed at the goldsmith's store. there aren't any skua gulls to imitate, except that the thing about genocide is that it is food and clothing for their relentless perse < 1267359230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1267359231 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1267359250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :save game before it is too late? < 1267359256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is quite un-nethacky < 1267359258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1267359288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well: < 1267359290 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rumors.fal:They say that the best time to save your game is now before it's too late. < 1267359297 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's classified as "false", too. < 1267359298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267359356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, actually I would probably make separate TCP and UDP fingerprints, since if you go for a high level API they are rather different < 1267359361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I refuse to go for a low level API < 1267359394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus TCP and UDP would be a nice way to check how much various interpreters depend on fingerprints being 4 letters < 1267359395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267359458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge and efunge themselves should handle it. I'm not so sure about the maintenance scripts for the fingerprint system. < 1267359602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, do you need to call shutdown() before you call close()? < 1267359610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for TCP that is < 1267359625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since erlang API does have shutdown() and close() for TCP < 1267359663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cfunge seems to first use shutdown() with SHUT_RDWR, then close() < 1267359672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't remember why < 1267359843 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure either. I think the main benefit of shutdown() is that you can half-close the connection. < 1267359873 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think just close() without a shutdown will do the clean TCP connection tear-down. < 1267360120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, erlang doesn't provide a poll() interface? I'm 100% sure it uses epoll and kqueue internally if available < 1267360137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems it abstracts such things away from the high level API? < 1267360353 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267360439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you are supposed to use multiple threads or some such instead < 1267360452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that would make it hard to provide a nice interface for polling sadly < 1267360478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you could use the {active,once} mode that sends messages for one message then switches to passive < 1267360600 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267361639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there still? How does this sound http://sprunge.us/cBWI < 1267361649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course very early draft < 1267361656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with just the overall layout specified yet < 1267363937 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267363959 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267364875 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267367062 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267368156 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267368349 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267368359 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267368447 0 :happyKoalla!~Administr@77.78.9.148 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267368838 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267369020 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267371824 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-192-244.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267372045 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-155-77-26.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267372137 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267372916 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267372926 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267374040 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267375141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267375451 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267376834 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267378342 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267378343 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267378370 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267378993 0 :happyKoalla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1267379857 0 :ehird!~ehird@95.145.64.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267379947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267380420 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy australian mailing list reminders day? < 1267380422 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that was ehird < 1267380427 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, at least he's still alive < 1267380489 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267380497 0 :ehird!~ehird@95.145.64.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267380502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1267380506 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi! < 1267380513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, my life. < 1267380515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric-priv, stat. < 1267380610 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-211-179.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1267380669 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :0 days since last topic change | 0 days since last alise sighting | For those who don't know: INTERCAL is basically the I Wanna Be The Guy of programming languages. Not useful for anything serious, but pretty funny when viewed from the outside. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267380686 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb alise < 1267380691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you. < 1267380713 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi alise < 1267381235 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267381246 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, it's ehird < 1267381274 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e=a, r=s, d=e, h=l < 1267381379 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@scandic824.host.songnetworks.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1267382795 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267383390 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267383561 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: In #esoteric? < 1267383567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in here. < 1267383612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"M' sxat' vid' l' lingv'.", I say in horrifically butchered Esperanto. < 1267383637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lovely! Now translate. < 1267383646 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to see the language. < 1267383688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's not /intentionally/ esoteric, but it does require a Ph.D. to understand... < 1267383703 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or ehirdness? < 1267383710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing. < 1267383715 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1267383721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, Epigram's mailing list is hosted in the university of the county I am in! < 1267383752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DEPENDENTLY-TYPED BUDDIES < 1267383774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Anyway, it's the same dependently-typed fuddlepip I've been on about for ages. < 1267383895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Fun. < 1267383921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Recent developments... uh, I realised a few days ago that the way it defines equality means that function1 === function2 means "function1 gives the same results as function2 for all inputs". < 1267383925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My language can do the freaking impossible! < 1267383936 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hah. < 1267383953 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But it can actually compute it! < 1267383961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly for /tricky/ things you need to give it some proof mon. < 1267383967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, your language is total? < 1267383968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still, coooool. < 1267383987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes - but it doesn't check all inputs, total languages can still have infinite input and output sets, lilke Nat. < 1267383993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, with the partiality monad it's turing-complete. < 1267384001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267384005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the definition of equalilty: < 1267384008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*equality < 1267384029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _===_ : {a:*} -> (x:a) -> a -> * where < 1267384035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ===-refl : x === x < 1267384051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., (a === b), where a and b are values of any type, is a type. < 1267384065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a and b are the same, then there is a value of that type (===-refl). < 1267384065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.o < 1267384067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, the type is empty. < 1267384079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since types = statements and values = proofs... < 1267384080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tada! < 1267384095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The same" means "indistinguishable", btw, i.e. the normal forms are the same. < 1267384117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Setoids/quotient types let you define your own equality relation, basically by making two "equal" elements indistinguishable even if they wouldn't normally be with Fancy Stuff. < 1267384130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So, uh, how much of that did you understand? < 1267384162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh. I'm not sure I grok the definition. < 1267384259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* is the type of types < 1267384288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(foo : t) -> is the same as t -> but we bind the /value/ of the argument to foo in the type < 1267384292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not at runtime, it's the dependent magic) < 1267384331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{x} is just like x except the argument is inferred, i.e. the compiler works out the value < 1267384338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't need to specify it < 1267384347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the data clause is just like haskell's gadt < 1267384369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so === takes, inferred, a type "a" (this is like forall a.), a value x of that type, another value of that type, and results in a type. < 1267384379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so within the constructors we have x bound to the first value < 1267384383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we do, basically < 1267384388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YepIndeed :: Equal x x < 1267384399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. ===-refl is a value of type x === x, and there are no other constructors < 1267384407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we cannot construct a value of type x === y unless x and y are the same < 1267384408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. < 1267384604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Get it? < 1267384716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Am I to take that as a no? :P < 1267384736 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHOOHOO < 1267384756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: wat < 1267384758 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise in Coq you can use ifte on anything with two constructors < 1267384779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you couldn't ifte an x === y by my definition? < 1267384779 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so bool {true,false} and P + Q {inl pPrf, inr qPrf} etc < 1267384783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uber-lame. < 1267384790 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1267384798 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you see? < 1267384805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't I see what? < 1267384817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My definition is better because it uses the proper curry-howard view of types anyway :|. < 1267384822 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267384835 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my d < 1267384848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1267384920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ping < 1267384958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you displease me < 1267384962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone else want to hear me blab? < 1267385021 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.115.63.42.plusnet.pcl-ag01.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267385027 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1267385040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yo. < 1267385109 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol] < 1267385111 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267385116 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is fed up o fme < 1267385122 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I tried to talk about my own stuff < 1267385125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not I just already < 1267385131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explained everything I was gonna :) < 1267385132 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just alread the whole thing < 1267385134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also ifte is yours you mmean? < 1267385137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mean < 1267385139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to Coq's < 1267385142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO THE LAMENESS IS ON YOUR PART < 1267385142 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just already the whole thing I was gonna < 1267385150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay sry :D < 1267385152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't know yo < 1267385152 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no my algebra is mine < 1267385152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can < 1267385163 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ifte is from coq and it's not lame ! it's good < 1267385168 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like in haskell if could do < 1267385182 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say f :: Either a b, if f then p else q < 1267385233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but < 1267385246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine is the /real/ meaning of if then else, i.e. if /true/ < 1267385259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and truth in such a lang is presence-of-value < 1267385271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the construct you mention may be more useful < 1267385282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but mine lets you write things like "if x < y" with < : a -> a -> * and have it work coherently < 1267385288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is jawsome < 1267385295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that op would be useful that you mention under a different name < 1267385371 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the true meaning if IF HYP THEN CONS ELSE ALT is HYP /\ CONS \/ ~HYP /\ ALT < 1267385401 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267385649 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267385674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: right but we're trying to import type-level truths into value-level conditionals < 1267385684 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright < 1267385689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact is this is a useful operation I'm sure you can't deny that branching on (x < y) is common < 1267385692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ifte looks like a good op too though < 1267385699 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's your take on typeclasses, in a dependently typed setting anyway? < 1267385716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typeclasses suck anywhere :/ < 1267385734 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me they seem very useful (I am using them a bit actually), but it's quite complicated and magic which I don't like < 1267385782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are useful but they have such complications, even functional dependencies result in lots of ambiguity. < 1267385792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has anyone actually formalised them, I wonder? < 1267385817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm mixfix operators could do with a character signifying whitespace < 1267385828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_[_]^:=_ < 1267386195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sorry, doing a kanji review. < 1267386224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kanji re-JEW < 1267386268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all that Jewish. < 1267386308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm using the Unicode minus sign − instead of - for subtraction. < 1267386313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may or may not be Unicode-mad. < 1267386318 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh. < 1267386405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That definition of _===_ I gave you? That's not the /real/ definition. < 1267386412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wanna see the /real/ definition? < 1267386417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1267386424 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :יהודי חוזר יפנית < 1267386455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: How Jewish of you. < 1267386478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _≡_ : {a:∗} → (x:a) → a → ∗ where < 1267386479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ≡refl : a ≡ a < 1267386484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Behold the Unicode, bitch. < 1267386487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1267386490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got it slightly wrong < 1267386496 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Mmm, Unicode. < 1267386504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data _≡_ : {a:∗} → (x:a) → a → ∗ where < 1267386504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ≡-refl : x ≡ x < 1267386511 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :אני חושבת שאני מפנה הישראלי, אני חושב שאני מפנה הישראלי, אני באמת חושב כך < 1267386564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So. data === with a being a type, x being the same type as a, mapping from a to a type, where the property "x === x" is true? < 1267386572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267386577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me rewrite it in Haskell + some notation. < 1267386579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, I fail. < 1267386583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You know GADTs, right? < 1267386588 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd help -- your notation is dense. < 1267386596 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Somewhat. < 1267386666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Eq :: forall a. (x:a) -> a -> * where < 1267386666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Constructor :: Eq x x < 1267386667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267386667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only additional notation you need here is (x:a) -> ... means a -> ..., except at the type-level (at compile-time, not run-time; it's complicated), we bind the run-time value of the argument to the name x. < 1267386688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and we can give value arguments to types. < 1267386689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just accept that. < 1267386703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1267386706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: "Constructor :: Eq 2 2", and "Constructor :: Eq (2+2) (3+1)" but not "Constructor :: Eq 1 2". < 1267386713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's fairly straightforward. < 1267386721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since values = proofs and types = logical statements, voila! < 1267386725 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reddit is slow today :-( < 1267386728 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267386746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, you want me to BLOW YOUR FREAKIN' MIND? < 1267386750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what Leibniz's law is? < 1267386780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do, but please inform this gentleman, as he is a Mongolian. He doesn't even have a cow! < 1267386817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_of_indiscernibles < 1267386822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your fucking Mongolian can read WP bitch :| < 1267386830 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1267386871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay. < 1267386879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz : {a:∗} → {P : a → a} → {x:a} → {y:a} → {x ≡ y} → P x → P y < 1267386881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read out, < 1267386913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just did Leibniz's law in your language. < 1267386915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For a given type a, and a given function from a to a (P), and two values x and y of type a, and given x === y, then P x implies P y.@ < 1267386916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's beautiful. < 1267386917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*P y." < 1267386919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a function: < 1267386932 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION agrees with pikhq < 1267386956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Give me (implicitly): a type a, a function (a -> a) P, an a x, an a y, an x === y. Then give me a value of type (P x). I'll give you a value of type (P y)." < 1267386965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The best part? Here's the definition (proof). < 1267386967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leibniz = _ < 1267386972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compiler can PROVE IT AUTOMATICALLY. < 1267386977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267386978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This isn't just theory; Agda does it. < 1267386982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Agda does it < 1267386990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This might be a pain to implement. < 1267387015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's exactly the same as writing a constructivist proof system, which is exactly the same as writing a dependently-typed, total programming language. < 1267387028 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :agda doesn't do that :S < 1267387029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... In the sense that Haskell is a pain to implement well.) < 1267387034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah it does < 1267387037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen the definition < 1267387043 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youcan't write leibniz = _ < 1267387050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1267387051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme find it < 1267387063 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267387131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~nad/repos/lib/src/Relation/Binary/PropositionalEquality/Core.agda < 1267387138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's either sym, trans or subst; I forget whicch < 1267387161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.nott.ac.uk/~nad/repos/lib/src/Relation/Binary/PropositionalEquality.agda some more properties including subst_2 < 1267387166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(subst on 2-adic functions) < 1267387196 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267387205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267387213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of those IS leibniz just named funny and under a wall of types < 1267387219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you expand all the types it does come out to the type I showed < 1267387223 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the definition is not = _ < 1267387238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's = refl < 1267387239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing < 1267387243 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the same :P < 1267387253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1267387263 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267387297 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267387529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{a:∗} → {x:a} → {y:a} → ({P : a → a} → P x → P y) → x ≡ y < 1267387532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is more interesting < 1267387925 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: does your language have * : *? < 1267387956 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, did I miss the #esoteric-priv stuff? < 1267388342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267388344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: And no. < 1267388348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other way around. < 1267388361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has ∗ : ∗n 1 < 1267388363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you missed it < 1267388368 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1267388390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how to split Set/Prop though, what symbols, whether to have a supertype etc < 1267388393 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I can get my hands on the #esoteric-priv stuff somehow. < 1267388496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask MissPiggy for the complete log. < 1267388525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, may I please have the complete log? < 1267389193 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267389991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: did you give it to uorygl? < 1267390006 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't seem to have received it. < 1267390092 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@scandic824.host.songnetworks.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1267390096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad MissPiggy, bad! :P < 1267390108 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pout < 1267390553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo : {a:*} -> {x:a} -> {y:a} -> ({P : a -> a} -> P x -> P y) -> x === y < 1267390554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo {_} {x} f = f {x ===} _ < 1267390557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proven, beeyotch. < 1267390559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1267390578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess letting P involve === is kinda cheating though. < 1267390890 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267390945 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267391213 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://igoro.com/archive/human-heart-is-a-turing-machine-research-on-xbox-360-shows-wait-what/ < 1267391326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :old :P < 1267391362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but cool < 1267391422 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to play a bit of RoboZZle < 1267391731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to try asikierka's tree < 1267391879 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was too easy, and didn't feel treelike < 1267392029 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267392515 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267392673 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote on 10.02.26 that (fork\I) is "the set of all single element sets of single element sets". But now I think that's wrong. It is (I) itself that is "the set of all single element sets of single element sets". < 1267392757 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(fork\I) is simply "the set of all single element sets". < 1267392847 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also want to know if you know any other set paradoxes. < 1267392856 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Other than Russell paradox) < 1267392865 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set of all ordinals < 1267392876 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it is very similar < 1267393089 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I found it, and I found out its similarity < 1267393299 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to figure out how to represent it in Hyper Set Language. I noticed that the set of all natural numbers is naturals=successor%0; < 1267393317 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can get the successor of that, too (successor/naturals) < 1267393342 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even (successor%naturals) < 1267393544 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the "Nostalgia" skin in Wikipedia but esolang wiki doesn't have that one < 1267393865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set of all natural numbers: < 1267393978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ℕ : ★ where < 1267393978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0 : ℕ < 1267393978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S : ℕ → ℕ < 1267394002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the unicode challenged < 1267394006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data N : * where < 1267394006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Deewiant: http://sprunge.us/cjVA <-- early draft for that < 1267394008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0 : N < 1267394010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : S : N -> N < 1267394010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1267394012 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imma make a video game :D < 1267394018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you weren't here the last few days < 1267394021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happened < 1267394029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I wasn't, and I'd rather not talk about it. < 1267394036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267394172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nothing much to worry about, though. < 1267394176 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: What game? < 1267394207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of space piloting game that puts you in a situation like Farscape < 1267394216 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1267394264 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: basically you're stuck in a far off part of the universe having to escape some crazy super powerful dudes < 1267394273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your ship is all fucked up so it doesnt do quite what you want it to do < 1267394273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, any opinion on http://sprunge.us/cjVA ? < 1267394291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you dont have money, you have to work using your only resource: your ship < 1267394292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a rather early draft of course < 1267394298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no details about most commands yet < 1267394303 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can do various things to that end < 1267394321 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made some games on computer a lot, including one game where you have to make rectangle to catch colored balls and make a hole. You have to prevent the white ball from falling into a hole or from colliding with colored balls. And the rectangle has to be moving the white ball and has to have the corners on tiles all of the same color. Each ball of the correct color 2 points, each other 1 point. You need 2 points to be valid, and then the points < 1267394331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Looks less painful than BSD sockets. < 1267394364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and actually usable, SOCK has many parts that aren't actually accessible due to stupid design < 1267394375 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I have not seem the notation "data N : *" before < 1267394388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It's an ehird-ism. < 1267394392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it's not. < 1267394395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an Agda-ism < 1267394396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, like UNIX sockets. the specification for if it is an unix or an inet socket comes below the address on the stack. And you need to know which type it is to know what format the address is in! < 1267394399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267394399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay. < 1267394411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It's dependent type theory, which is isomorphic to intuistionistic logic. < 1267394419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*intuitionistic < 1267394425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, it's computable logic. < 1267394446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dependently-typed programming language <=> intuitionistic computer proof system < 1267394475 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"data N : * where" just defines the set N (* is read as "set", : is read as "is a"). < 1267394476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Wait, there was already a sockets API for Befunge that did that? < 1267394484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *Eeeeew*. < 1267394488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just defining the set N inductively, pretty much. < 1267394510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes, the one fungot uses < 1267394510 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they say that shopkeepers don't read, so that his mouth as a cloud, by samuel taylor coleridge) < 1267394515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1267394516 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1267394523 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267394535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"They say that shopkeepers don't read, so that his mouth as a cloud." < 1267394538 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wisdom for the ages. < 1267394550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mixed up ones I guess? < 1267394558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but from what ones? < 1267394567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wondered lonely as a cloud will be the last bit. < 1267394609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A shopkeeper, his mouth as a cloud: creating only obscurity, not one wit of understanding; for that that travels through his ears finds no passage to the outward path. < 1267394614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway look at SOCK: http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#SOCK < 1267394621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, spot the multiple issues < 1267394627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, I made it make sense. POETICALLY < 1267394649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, :P < 1267394665 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<==> < 1267394679 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<=(o_o)=> < 1267394736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so yes I'm aiming for a somewhat higher level and more advanced API than that < 1267394752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do need some help with figuring out the best interface for SCTP however < 1267394755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any SCTP expert here? < 1267394761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Shopkeepers don't read, so what use is engraving in a shop?" (rumors.tru) + "-- so that his mouth and jaws were completely hidden --" (from "mummy wrapping" entry) + "-- until they laid Tyr's hand into his mouth as a pledge." (from "tyr) + what alise said for the last bit. < 1267394767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have only used SCTP a tiny bit < 1267394821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what? it added cloud to make it poetical? < 1267394830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1267394839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this some famous poetical work? < 1267394853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION prefers prose < 1267394892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never ever liked poetry < 1267394904 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267394919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes I'm aware of prose poetry) < 1267394934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it is a border case, some instances are okay, some are not IMO) < 1267394999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know "I wonder lonely as a cloud"? < 1267395013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, /me slaps AnMaster about a bit with the Rime of the Ancient Mariner. < 1267395021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, can't say it is familiar. Remember I'm from a different culture < 1267395054 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267395170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is there any actual problem with supertypes? < 1267395175 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1267395178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all (exists e. e) ... < 1267395193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why can't we say N = N* intersect {0}? < 1267395201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no dependent lang seems to allow such constructions < 1267395328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Union, not intersect. < 1267395432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. < 1267395603 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A website designer created a script that would create a webpage comparing every possible text color to every possible background color (16,777,216 colors each). The page that would have resulted was calculated to be more than 19 Peta Bytes in size using the system of 1 KB = 1024 Bytes, 1 MB = 1024 KB, etc. The script was never run." < 1267395764 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yyou can do it alise < 1267395793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Howso, in Coq or Agda or similar? < 1267395833 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well union is either < 1267395840 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so make a coercive subtyping < 1267395881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upperandlowercase.com/musicvariant2/ _what- < 1267395882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*what_ < 1267395901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but do agda and coq allow you to make such a subtyping? < 1267396278 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267396290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo alise! < 1267396295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greetz. < 1267396309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Please give oerjan the complete -priv log, if that's okay. < 1267396591 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A spider-web in dark is a good way to stop the war < 1267396602 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1267396610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "M' sxat' vid' l' lingv'.", I say in horrifically butchered Esperanto. < 1267396631 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ' legal not-before vowels? < 1267396645 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know Esperanto language very well what does that mean please? < 1267396665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'd like to see the language. < 1267396667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Actually, you're not supposed to omit the ending of every word. :P < 1267396723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well naturally < 1267396740 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267396767 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A spider-web in dark is a good way to stop the war. (It was a D&D game we played on Thursday, and, this idea did work, very well actually) < 1267397071 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The war does not know how to think ahead. And that's why they didn't win the war. < 1267397092 0 :Timoriensis!~timoriens@99.105.198-77.rev.gaoland.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267397218 0 :Timoriensis!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267397239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X* is X-without-0; is there similar notation for X-without-negatives? < 1267397248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that X^+? < 1267397258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn i'm tired... < 1267397280 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use X\{0} < 1267397292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's X-without-0, i.e. X* < 1267397297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering about X-without-negatives < 1267397301 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in math? R^+ is R without either negatives or 0, afair < 1267397304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure it's X^+ yeah < 1267397309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: mm < 1267397334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: so clearly R^{+{-*}} is what I need < 1267397346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where -* means "with 0", being the inverse of * < 1267397348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267397348 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturals without zero: naturals_without_zero=naturals!1; < 1267397355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1267397359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X^+_0 maybe < 1267397373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wat :D < 1267397384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not literally < 1267397396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait I want Q+ not Q+ with 0 < 1267397407 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like X* for X\{0} < 1267397418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do so tough :P < 1267397424 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1267397435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it aesthetically pleasing. < 1267397440 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :??????? < 1267397442 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially since X* has other meanings, especially if X is a vector space < 1267397450 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has nothing to do with the set being zeroless < 1267397451 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(dual space) < 1267397466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah but i don't care about that :) < 1267397471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it's just notation < 1267397478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notation is inherently arbitrary < 1267397479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST NOTATION?? < 1267397484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how dare you < 1267397488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"nothing to do" doesn't matter is what I mean < 1267397496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no notation has anything to do with what it represents < 1267397503 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we pick aesthetically pleasing, memorable notation, and that's it < 1267397513 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could equally argue that no word means anything < 1267397525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no word has any relation to its meaning < 1267397570 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION uses morphology to disagree < 1267397594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let's consider "not black" < 1267397598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we think this has a relation to "black" < 1267397608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the concept being expressed is /everything/ just to the exclusion of black < 1267397625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. in the "true meaning", without any level of abstraction or function, just value, so to speak, there is no "black" < 1267397628 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267397640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so "not black" relates to the word "black" but its meaning does not relate to the meaning of "black" < 1267397661 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what ! < 1267397715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i just stepped into the lovely deep-end of things i don't really know shit about < 1267397753 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you read On Denoting by Russle < 1267397763 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to as well < 1267397768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267397773 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you kids talking about < 1267397809 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WORDS < 1267397942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/what/, I don't have \top and \bot in emacs < 1267397950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck that shit < 1267397963 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAA < 1267398050 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net < 1267398141 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION read \bot as lambdabot, and wondered why you'd expect it in emacs < 1267398332 0 :ehird!~ehird@95.145.65.10 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267398335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267398347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did i miss since migomipo left? < 1267398373 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:58 < MissPiggy> AAAAAAAA < 1267398445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oerjan read \bot as lambdabot, and wondered why you'd expect it in emacs < 1267398728 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mmBw3uzPnJI/S2Ltvwxm04I/AAAAAAABAQU/qcggMUcrims/s1600-h/ipad_12.jpg < 1267398732 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iPAD < 1267398984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i thought of some two-dimensional notation for dependent types < 1267399054 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267399055 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the regular type, with more spacing between the function arrows, but with (x:T) replaced with T. Above, a line along the whole thing. Above, in the middle of the T without the x, "x", for each such argument. < 1267399063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the f : goes on the dividing line < 1267399225 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must go < 1267399239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :farewell < 1267399244 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't seem to copy from a PDF < 1267399246 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye MissPiggy < 1267399263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: do you like the notation though? < 1267399342 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ond't undesrtand it < 1267399351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well < 1267399362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically there's a line, and above is the dependent section; below, the normal section < 1267399375 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal section is all the types, none of the names, connected by arrows; drab and usual < 1267399384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :above, in the locations of dependent arguments, the names we bind them two < 1267399394 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how that could work < 1267399413 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A -> _ -> _ < 1267399414 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-------------- < 1267399417 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set -> A -> A < 1267399423 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just like huh? < 1267399442 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like that < 1267399444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like this < 1267399464 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ehird are you likey to be on tommorow if not when < 1267399497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : A < 1267399497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :----------------- < 1267399497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set -> A -> A < 1267399499 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: maybe < 1267399500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1267399504 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :know < 1267399508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not tomorrow, then say before the end of next week < 1267399515 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267399517 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1267399520 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1267399521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that notation SUCKS :P < 1267399523 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1267399526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one final thing before you go :| < 1267399531 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope sorry < 1267399535 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has quit () < 1267399539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pah :P < 1267399577 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dot dot dot < 1267399582 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh :D < 1267399586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : A x < 1267399586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=== : --------------------------- < 1267399587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Set -> A -> A -> Set < 1267399589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT IS GOOD NOTATION LOVE IT < 1267399609 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youandouanpfb < 1267399616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what :D < 1267399621 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267399621 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing which is good is implicit binding < 1267399630 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's also hard < 1267399631 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by that? < 1267399644 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to not make it confusing < 1267399670 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you get some sleep < 1267399685 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that say ehird < 1267399690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: it says things < 1267399693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: don't want to :D < 1267399694 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what things < 1267399697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what do you mean by implicit binding < 1267399699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: things. complicated < 1267399705 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan??? < 1267399709 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267399726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mwahahaha. < 1267399741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1267399742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer < 1267399743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267399751 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267399756 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what does it say, ehird? < 1267399764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an anagrram < 1267399773 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1267399774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says your mom < 1267399781 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267399785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: no, you are < 1267399832 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am....what < 1267399834 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1267399866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an agrram < 1267399881 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delightful my existence must be < 1267399926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eb tsum ecnetsixe ym lufthgiled < 1267399928 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, not an anagram < 1267399947 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! < 1267399956 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonki, hey, haha < 1267400039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm becoming dissatisfied, I think, with the usual GADT method of defining inductive types. < 1267400042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It feels to specialised. < 1267400175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I see the definition of the set, i.e. the T in data X : T where ..., and the definition of the constructors, i.e. the ... in the same, as being separate. < 1267400204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nat : Set < 1267400204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nat = data zero : Nat < 1267400205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : succ : Nat → Nat < 1267400205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1267400205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, leans too much to the right for my liking; and besides, does this even make sense? < 1267400214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't Nat expand indefinitely? If not, what does "data" actually mean? < 1267400297 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267400531 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what is it < 1267400544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's complicated. You wouldn't understand. < 1267400549 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goddammit < 1267400554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Okay, let me rephrase. < 1267400578 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have the hours or the high-level understanding necessary to eloquently explain the theory behind it all to you. < 1267400594 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, okay < 1267400603 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267400604 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a place that does? < 1267400608 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, a link? < 1267400629 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nat = Fix (\t -> data Zero | Succ t) < 1267400635 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-159-104-136.range86-159.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267400651 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1267400672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer: Well... it's dependent type theory. < 1267400687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But good luck. You need a strong backing in functional programming and some backing in logic. < 1267400699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I have this slight feeling that that is not well-defined. :P < 1267400708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, bah; I despise non-G ADT syntax. < 1267400724 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the very least, "Nat = Fix (\t -> data Zero : t; Succ : t -> t)". < 1267400731 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, I considered "data a where ...". < 1267400738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike it; we shouldn't need such arbitrary binding of names. < 1267400746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um the whole point is you _don't_ have t as the result before using Fix < 1267400795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\t -> data Zero | Succ t would be something like an anonymous type constructor < 1267400804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but remember all this must be total < 1267400820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regular function-level "fix : (a -> a) -> a", at least, is totally verboten < 1267400823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's total enough, you could name it < 1267400840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fix : (Set -> Set) -> Set < 1267400841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix here means smallest fixpoint of types < 1267400849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prove it; Fix f = ...? < 1267400855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not doubting, I'm just curious < 1267400888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's just what i _think_ inductive data types are defined as in denotational semantics < 1267400899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while codata uses largest fixpoint < 1267400912 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267400966 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**** YEAH! < 1267401006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what restrictions there are on the Set -> Set, like you say, to make it work < 1267401107 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i _think_ it would be isomorphic to having a single inductive data type data Fix t = Fix (t (Fix t)), and using it to construct everything else? < 1267401121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or i could be horribly wrong :) < 1267401182 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GO CANADA < 1267401288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if so that would be nice < 1267401292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a theoretical underpinning < 1267401296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ℝ : Set where < 1267401296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ℝ : (f : ℚ⁺ → ℚ) < 1267401296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : → {{ε₁:ℚ⁺} → {ε₂:ℚ⁺} → abs (f ε₁ - f ε₂) ≤ ε₁ + ε₂} < 1267401296 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : → ℝ < 1267401298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have that rigght < 1267401300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*right! < 1267401313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck yeah, definin' the computable reals 'n shit < 1267401470 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, ehird's back < 1267401475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah - long story. < 1267401487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suffice to say there are now _two_ crises in my life. < 1267401490 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1267401509 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being replaced by your female alter ego isn't one of them, I presume < 1267401534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, my name changed back. < 1267401537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :alise < 1267401544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--no, that would merely be interesting < 1267401556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we talking full sex change here or just ephemeral gender switch? < 1267401583 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1267401598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd hesitate to call either one a crises -- though sometimes it can be a *pain in the ass*. ;)