< 1267660800 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this basically disproved time travel < 1267660816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:58] MissPiggy: but it would just be duplicating me, and destroying the original < 1267660816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the cells in your body are replaced etc < 1267660817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively < 1267660818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :samething < 1267660830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no it did not disprove time travel, physics did < 1267660850 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1267660873 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The duplicating-and-destroying argument has absolutely nothing to do with disproving something that appears to be time travel. < 1267660885 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our current understanding of physics does not predict the physical possibility of time travel ... that is not the same as disproving it. < 1267660933 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267661016 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way to disprove time travel is to conclusively show that a) our knowledge of physics precludes all forms of time travel b) our knowledge of physics is entirely perfect. < 1267661040 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "b" part is the nonsense part :) < 1267661047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, part b) is the easy part. < 1267661059 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... No. < 1267661062 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Derive all our knowledge of chemistry from our knowledge of physics. < 1267661067 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part b is impossible. < 1267661070 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Boom! You've proved our knowledge of physics correct. < 1267661082 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part b) is about as impossible as proving that Barack Obama is the president of the United States. < 1267661083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not /all/ of it. < 1267661084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No, you've proved our knowledge of physics consistent with our knowledge of chemistry. < 1267661091 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that our knowledge of chemistry is flawed < 1267661123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to demonstrate that our knowledge of physics is consistent with the universe. < 1267661162 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose we have a small set of rules that predicts a huge set of results. < 1267661163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In its entirety. < 1267661174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means you need to enumerate all infinity physical possibilities and bring them to pass. You need to destroy the universe by every means that the universe can be destroyed, and oh wait hm that last one was a problem. < 1267661180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it can predict those results. < 1267661185 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267661204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we will be happy to use them to predict others. However, we have not proven those other results. < 1267661211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We merely assume them. < 1267661212 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, let my try again. < 1267661339 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose that we have a complete theory of physics, and a huge body of data about chemistry. The body of data about chemistry is much, much larger than the theory of physics. And the complete theory of physics completely predicts that huge body of data. As long as you can be confident that no other complete theory of physics also predicts this body of data, you can be confident that the theory of physics is correct. < 1267661356 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ut the data hand't been correleated in all possible ways yet < 1267661363 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and eternity passed.. < 1267661370 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would we want to do this? < 1267661381 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't care about absolute proof. < 1267661384 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it came to pass that AC learned how to reverse the direction of entropy. < 1267661388 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267661394 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We care about very, very strong proof. < 1267661400 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267661410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not a proof. < 1267661432 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have either proven something or disproven something. There are no degrees. < 1267661433 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We care about very, very strong evidence. < 1267661441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: chemistry involves mainly things composed of protons, neutrons and electrons. these are composed of less than a third of the elementary particles already known to physics (electron, up and down quark) < 1267661445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, we care about very, very strong evidence. < 1267661456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it is certainly possible to have very strong evidence that something cannot happen. < 1267661464 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is entirely different from "proving it cannot happen". < 1267661470 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind that the physics required to explain chemical reactions bears little resemblance to the physics required to explain orbits of planets. < 1267661487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so chemistry only tests a small part of the fundamental theory < 1267661496 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I, personally, feel that we have little enough evidence against time travel that even a colloquial use of the term "disprove" is wildly overzealous. < 1267661522 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we do not have any evidence against time travel generally < 1267661526 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She uses the word “algebra” broadly, defining it as a “method of solving problems by honest confession of one’s ignorance”. < 1267661530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Indeed. < 1267661532 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might argue that chemical properties are an extremely sensitive function of physical constants. < 1267661535 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But maybe they're not. < 1267661539 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however we lack any good theory of time travel that current models would allow < 1267661540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We actually just plain don't know enough to rule it out. < 1267661558 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: We also lack comprehensive models. < 1267661564 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort of wonder what a "proof" is if it's not just very, very strong evidence. < 1267661568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it would be like claiming you knew everything about C++ from just knowing the subset in common with C < 1267661569 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course we do < 1267661583 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we had a comprehensive model, physics would be boring < 1267661587 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Where are you getting this from? Sounds like lit-crit mumbo-jumbo < 1267661610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, I understand what you're saying. One of my conditions was "as long as you can be confident that no other complete theory of physics also predicts this body of data". < 1267661614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: See mathematical proofs. < 1267661632 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, it's about the book philosophy and fun of algebra < 1267661638 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am confident that no other program computes THIS algorithm! < 1267661642 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when I say "no other complete theory of physics", I mean "no other complete theory of physics that's nearly as simple". < 1267661656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267661657 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by "other", I mean "different", as in "predicting different things". < 1267661661 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "Proof" is meaningful only when something can be comprehensively reduced to something else. That is, proof is contextual. It may be possible to prove that our understanding of chemistry is consistent with our understanding of physics, but this proof gives us little, as its utility is dependent on the proof of physics, which we have nothing to reduce to. < 1267661671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so are "proof" and "mathematical proof" the same thing? < 1267661681 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he's not back in $soon, I'll worry. < 1267661691 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but Hume a few bars and I'll fake it! < 1267661696 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /rimshot < 1267661702 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Colloquially, "proof" just means "very strong evidence" of course, but we're talking about theoretical physics, this is not a colloquial conversation. < 1267661735 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: In any sane formal context, yes. < 1267661771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove that the sun will come up tomorrow. < 1267661775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as we all know, you can't actually prove anything about reality with math. Just something about a nice formal system. < 1267661784 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternately, make yourself sick worrying that it won't. < 1267661790 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: easy. < 1267661795 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I sincerely hope it won't, the physical ramifications of the sun moving in such a fashion are horrifying. < 1267661804 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no physical theory is proven < 1267661822 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it has come up every day for the past 1,000,000,000,000 days. We have no good reason to expect that it won't come up tomorrow. Therefore, it will come up tomorrow. < 1267661824 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Now, if you mean that the Earth will rotate such that from my perspective the sun's position on the horizon rises, that's a different request. < 1267661832 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about elecrtroonics < 1267661832 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Failure. < 1267661847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I argue that it does, in fact, rise < 1267661849 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You've been around for a trillion days? Impressive. < 1267661853 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl that is such a fail argument < 1267661867 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm merely poking the most obvious of holes in that argument :P ) < 1267661869 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other planets rotate the sun as it rotates Earth < 1267661869 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: A lack of a proof against is not a proof for. < 1267661871 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction just doesn't work that way < 1267661880 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, every bird I've ever seen has been black. Therefore, all birds are black. < 1267661885 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean, induction doesn't work that way? That's precisely how induction works. < 1267661886 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: There is no global definition of "up" < 1267661892 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you build an explanation of something which doesn't have variables < 1267661892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No it's not. < 1267661895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you've seen 1,000,000,000,000 birds? < 1267661900 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it fits wear is < 1267661900 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how do you think it works, then? < 1267661902 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Erm, "global" is a bad term to use ... < 1267661902 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it* < 1267661903 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: nothing is defined globally < 1267661907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You've seen 1,000,000,000,000 sunrises? < 1267661915 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the great things of physics < 1267661924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even better: birds have two wings. Therefore, if a bird loses a wing, it's no longer a bird. < 1267661954 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what *is* a bird ? < 1267661958 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it;'s not the bird it used to be, anyway. < 1267661959 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much of a sapiens' brain do I have to scoop out before it's no longer a sapiens? :) < 1267661967 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, here's a better argument. < 1267661973 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfvEgWINUFc <-- tries to answer that question < 1267661987 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, the old one is fine < 1267661994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I think it works by showing that some statement x in an infinite sequence is true, and that *if any statement in that infinite sequence is true*, then so is the next one. < 1267661994 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Sun has come up every day for the past 1,000,000 days. We have no good reason to expect it won't come up tomorrow. Therefore, it will come up tomorrow. < 1267662006 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's an entirely different type of induction. < 1267662011 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl stop :((((( < 1267662016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a perfectly valid physical theory < 1267662018 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, these kind of arguments make me die inside < 1267662019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean inductive reasoning. < 1267662020 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: You are providing a very compelling /argument/ that the sun will come up. You are NOT proving that it will. < 1267662020 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical induction and inductive logic are not the same thing. < 1267662028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is proves nothing. < 1267662030 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and calling it "induction" is just as bad < 1267662034 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no theory proves anything < 1267662042 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, please stop dying so much. < 1267662048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive reasoning produces a scientific theory. < 1267662052 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: sure, define "proof" that way. I don't like that definition. < 1267662054 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the theory is consistent with observations and makes a prediction < 1267662057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not a proof by induction. < 1267662057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, it should be called the principle of probable monotony < 1267662063 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore is valid < 1267662063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heuristic principle of probable monotony < 1267662065 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: then call it that. < 1267662066 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** < 1267662075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: general relativity allows you to treat any object as stationary, including the earth. see also http://xkcd.com/123/ < 1267662089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*any one < 1267662110 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I have a distaste for the heuristic principle of probable monotony because it is a very flawed to conflate this argument with an explanation -- which leads to much deliberation an quibbling on trivial matters < 1267662133 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :truly it is just a suggestion that one might look for a deeper explanation < 1267662152 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: xkcd #123 doesn't actually use general relativity < 1267662154 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should not be confused with extrapolation either < 1267662156 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I think it's best to define proof as very, very strong evidence. There's really no practical difference between very, very strong evidence and absolute proof. < 1267662163 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is only valid when the frame of reference is not accelerating < 1267662176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, that's _special_ relativity < 1267662198 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: the fact that you have a distaste for it and it leads to much quibbling over trivial matters has no bearing whatsoever on whether it forms a strong argument or not. < 1267662206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general relativity is all about acceleration (and its equivalent, gravity) < 1267662216 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you're right < 1267662218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind me < 1267662218 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl I thuoght it did < 1267662230 0 :alise_!~alise@212.183.140.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267662233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "Strong argument" has a completely different notion in math and in science. < 1267662247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "strong argument" in math is a proof. < 1267662263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A "strong argument" in science is noting that every single time you do something, the same thing happens. < 1267662268 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: well, it doesn't. < 1267662284 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ufhG! < 1267662290 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must defeat this argument < 1267662357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: In conclusion: do not invoke the word "proof" unless you are discussing formal reasoning. It is wrong. < 1267662375 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or hard liquor. < 1267662378 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has been shown many times that an even which seems periodic or caused by some effect must not be assumed so simply on the evidence of data but if we can build a simple theory to explain this data < 1267662387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so what word am I supposed to use for very, very strong evidence that's practically identical to a proof? < 1267662390 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an event* < 1267662398 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidence. < 1267662414 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Evidence" and "very, very strong evidence that's practically identical to a proof" are not synonyms. < 1267662439 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since there is evidence that you are guilty, I hereby sentence you to life in prison." Doesn't sound right. < 1267662460 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION invents the word "Gwandocu" for uorygl's use.
< 1267662464 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you. < 1267662479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1267662497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reasoning is "Since there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that you are guilty", BTW. < 1267662516 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, if we had a complete theory of physics, it wouldn't necessarily be difficult to come up with gwandocu that it's correct. < 1267662538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Complete theory"... Could you define that term? < 1267662560 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I presume you mean "theory that explains all observations", but just wish to confirm) < 1267662569 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A complete theory is a full mathematical description of everything that happens. < 1267662570 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you could always find people who would not be persuaded, no matter how geemorgul the gwandocu. < 1267662573 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, that. < 1267662592 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: indeed; we call those people irrational, and we try to make them rational so that they believe. < 1267662595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, then. I agree with that statement. < 1267662606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And note that scientific discussion needs the word "gwandocu". < 1267662611 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O jeh, o naw, o naw, o naw, o naw. < 1267662649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | alise sighting counter currently out of order | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1267662828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly an ancient welsh concept < 1267662853 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has too many vowels. < 1267662868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would need to be "Gwndycu". < 1267662895 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You managed to not turn the easiest-to-turn-into-a-consonant vowel into a consonant. < 1267662926 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I was being consistent with Welsh phonology. < 1267662939 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267663008 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-54-80-152.hsd1.md.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267663016 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I had more time, I might ask if anyone thinks it's possible to get a complete mathematical description of everything that happens without being omniscient. < 1267663038 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's probably possible. < 1267663053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what's happening in the Zeta Reticuli system right now. < 1267663070 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some idea of what's happening in the Zeta Reticuli system right now. < 1267663076 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First-hand? < 1267663083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267663083 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I borrow your saucer? < 1267663086 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Drat. < 1267663096 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you have a guess as to what's happening there, then. < 1267663104 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's a very good guess. < 1267663112 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's hard to know. < 1267663121 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without a saucer and all. < 1267663173 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man ive got some many awesome ideas for my game :D :D :D < 1267663180 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if there's any way of verifying that at least some of our laws of physics apply to Zeta Reticuli. < 1267663196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ofcourse there are. < 1267663223 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we can look at the spectra emitted by the stars and see that they look like black body emission spectra. < 1267663240 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... we really have a lot of data on them. < 1267663240 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.49 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267663255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we look at Z Reticuli and can observe that the star's size matches what we'd expect from its mass, that this correlates from the expected composition which we can find from its spectra < 1267663264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i think if something like wolfram's theory that the universe is generated by a small program is true, then we might eventually find it (or an equivalent program), although we would never be able to prove that it was completely accurate < 1267663289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can find that it's shape/oblation fits its rotational period < 1267663314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because we could never be sure that we have measured every phenomenon to perfect precision < 1267663315 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can see that it has the same gravitational effects on surrounding stars as its mass would dictate, and that it is affected by the background gravity accordingly < 1267663317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc etc < 1267663418 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, we might be able to find gwandocu that it's completely accurate! < 1267663431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gwandocu? < 1267663434 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'll bet it's "Hello, world!" < 1267663442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Later, folks. < 1267663449 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267663458 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gwandocu is extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt. < 1267663459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: that seems to lack a certain necessary complexity < 1267663484 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267663493 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hello, world!" isn't a computer program. < 1267663497 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267663523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it is in some languages! < 1267663529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what language is gwandocu :| < 1267663550 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English. < 1267663558 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric Vernacular English. < 1267663561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oic < 1267663587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Etymology: pronouncable series of letters, chosen on a whim. < 1267663600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1267663664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still say it's welsh < 1267663684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Welsh it's Gwndycu. < 1267663708 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-62-25.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267663762 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267663762 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1267663766 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: gwendolyn is a welsh name you know. it's not that far off. < 1267663967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gun-dick-oo < 1267663980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267664161 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267664168 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-8-207.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267664174 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Gregor: general relativity allows you to treat any object as stationary, including the earth. see also http://xkcd.com/123/ < 1267664201 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Well, not quite, Earth is in an accelerated frame of reference, but anyway, even so the sun most certainly does not come "up", up would be away from the Earth. < 1267664291 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: the sad thing is that he gets it backwards :( < 1267664295 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :general relativity allows you to treat an accelerated frame as stationary ;D < 1267664298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it < 1267664305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s just a coordinate choice) < 1267664307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :construct newtons laws in a rotating frame and you see there is no centrifugal force < 1267664331 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: um, no? < 1267664338 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: um, yes? < 1267664342 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm gonna go with "um, no" on this. < 1267664437 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think that everything is definable in a reference frame, but not consistent with the behavior of a stationary frame: From an accelerated frame, all other objects appear to be accelerating conversely, but with no force acting upon them. That's inconsistent. < 1267664445 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless what you mean by "get a centrifugal force" is if you calculate something based off of where the revolving object would've gone were it not kept in a circular path by a centripetal force. < 1267664482 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats inventing a force based on what WOULD have been not what is. there is no centrifugal force that emerges from newtons laws in a rotating reference frame. < 1267664483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: general relativity treats that as a gravity field caused by the metric of spacetime < 1267664503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is only a centripetal force and momentum. < 1267664515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you understand what "in a rotating (coordinate) frame" means? < 1267664528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i do. < 1267664538 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh wait ... this is one of the properties of /general/ relativity that distinguishes it from /special/ relativity, innit? My general rel. isn't up to snuff :P < 1267664555 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: yeah. < 1267664593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't worry, mine isn't up to much more than that either. i certainly cannot calculate spacetime tensors... < 1267664621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant calculate kinematic vectors, nevermind spacetime tensors, apparently. < 1267664639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats augur -----###
< 1267664648 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267664657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt help you that im a masochist. :P < 1267664727 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: He's telling you to swat him again. < 1267664762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if you turn on a centrifuge, and then describe everything happening inside from the viewpoint of a coordinate system moving _with_ the centrifuge, then clearly in that coordinate system there is an acceleration of things < 1267664776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, there isnt. < 1267664861 0 :ruhtranayr!~ruhtranay@c-76-112-204-68.hsd1.mi.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267664875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an object moving at zero velocity outside of the rotating frame will trace a circular path in the rotating frame, which is acceleration < 1267664903 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, yes. that's "yes, there is.", by the way < 1267664905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an object revolving at the same rate as the frame does not move in the frame, maintaining the same coordinates, thus not accelerating < 1267664936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :centrifugal force is not the acceleration of the externally stable object. < 1267664945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: sheesh, we are talking about describing _ordinary_ physics from the viewpoint of a rotating frame < 1267664956 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afk < 1267665001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, brb < 1267665249 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1267665253 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267665878 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267666429 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267666526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a BF interpreter in C. Why did I write a BF interpreter in C? < 1267666548 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to trace back to the start of the reasoning...
< 1267666562 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267666582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right. I had tried in the past (ages ago) and failed horribly. Somehow I went from there to "I should write one." < 1267666612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://sprunge.us/LBeW < 1267666617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Least useful program I've written in ages. < 1267666813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also probably the cleanest C I've written this year. :P < 1267667511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meanwhile, I present the ugliest car ever created: http://www.carsweb.cz/hatt/novinky/golba/golba_1.jpg < 1267667778 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267667792 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear God. It is ugly. < 1267667943 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure what to say. < 1267667960 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depending on your perspective, it either has tits or testicles. < 1267668353 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1267668423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267668431 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going for alliteration there, but in retrospect, "boobs or balls" would have worked better. < 1267668803 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267669024 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1267669586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The result was speedy no consensus." —Articles for Deletion < 1267669642 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who says wikipedia isn't efficient < 1267670173 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: lol < 1267670181 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ... what? < 1267670194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dwm_(2nd_nomination) < 1267670203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267670207 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guys/ < 1267670209 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Guys. < 1267670212 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello. < 1267670366 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any programs out there that would let be experiment with computer circuitry and logic gates and stuff like that? < 1267670394 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267670408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267670428 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267670475 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-2-133.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267670602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: scarf is the expert on that stuff here i believe < 1267670657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, he actually does research with it < 1267670733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vhdl is a keyword to look for < 1267670880 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1267670901 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would a Von Neumann Automaton simulator fit my needs? o.o < 1267670976 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cellular automaton thing? that seems a bit different from real circuits < 1267671020 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so. < 1267671025 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I assumed as much. < 1267671025 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... a Von Neumann Automaton is presumably, based on the name, not a cellular automaton or even anything particularly similar to a cellular automaton ... < 1267671065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_cellular_automaton < 1267671083 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, interesting :P < 1267671089 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It falls under the category of an automaton, but it can be used to construct CPU models. < 1267671125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: note that "automaton" includes more types than cellular ones < 1267671141 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1267671158 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Absolutely. < 1267671163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines, for example < 1267671176 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although those are easy to simulate with cellular ones) < 1267671189 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what'd be cool? An esolang based on the Von Neumann Automaton. :) < 1267671265 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah! This looks PERFECT! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireworld) < 1267671296 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wireworld is good fun. < 1267671336 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epic http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f9/Golly_Constructor_layout.gif < 1267671457 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you think THAT's epic?! Look at this one... < 1267671488 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See the ticker GIF at the top of (http://golly.sourceforge.net/)? < 1267671517 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267671525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, nice < 1267671534 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an actual configuration which I BELIEVE is in Game of Life, but I can't tell. < 1267671537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1267671550 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are LWSS guns, I believe < 1267671551 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's one demo configuration in Golly. < 1267671561 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's sort of unbelievable. :) < 1267671574 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I don't know the specific term for those < 1267671585 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they're guns, but only trigger when a glider comes by and reflect the glider < 1267671811 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't even looked into Life enough to even know what you're talking about. :) < 1267671858 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a spaceship is an element that moves on its own without leaving debris or anything; gliders are the basic spaceships that move diagonally < 1267671869 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. :) < 1267671872 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a gun is a pattern that generates spaceships < 1267671884 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool. < 1267671886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the right, you can see gliders going back and forth between reflectors < 1267671922 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when they get reflected on the middle reflectors, they generate horizontal spaceships < 1267671924 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which make the pattern < 1267671992 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read in an article once that you could take a turing-complete automaton like Life and build a working program and that it would be the ultimate form of data compression. :) < 1267672032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267672042 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267672070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Doubtful. < 1267672080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life takes quite a lot of memory. < 1267672112 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just what I read. < 1267672125 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey... < 1267672170 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Wireworld is probably what I'm looking for? < 1267672256 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if someone has implemented FSG in Golly
< 1267672594 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, I sort of like this channel without alise being here all the time < 1267672685 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with alise? < 1267672760 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like I'm gonna be addicteed to this thing. < 1267672931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just some random crap personal stuff. < 1267673133 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267673173 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: alise has a habit of loudly attacking anything he doesn't like < 1267673196 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is sometimes nice, sometimes not < 1267673242 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267673525 0 :jcp1!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267673528 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267673941 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267673944 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :jcp < 1267674733 0 :ruhtranayr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267674994 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....oooohhhkay < 1267675006 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had deja vu, except it included stuff that did not happen. < 1267675277 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267675335 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267675345 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hello. < 1267675350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to continue the previous discussion < 1267675354 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooooo < 1267675373 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION beats augur with the saucepan to induce amnesia ===\__/
< 1267675393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an object that is experiencing the so called "centrifugal" force is an object revolving around some centerpoint < 1267675401 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the force being away from that centerpoint < 1267675434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the rotating reference frame, the object is not moving at all, and thus is, relative to that frame of reference, not experiencing any forces < 1267675456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus there is no centrifugal force on it in the rotating frame of reference < 1267675500 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now certainly its true that in the rotating f.o.r. an object stationary in the non-rotating f.o.r. will appear to move in a circle and therefore will appear to be affected by some force < 1267675506 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this force is centripetal < 1267675513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not moving at all isn't the same as not experiencing any forces - it just means the forces cancel out < 1267675529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, sure, but then the NET force is zero. < 1267675569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you could invent some imaginary centrifugal force that is perfectly counterbalanced by some other centripetal force, in this rotating f.o.r. < 1267675570 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that the object is pushed inward by the walls of the centrifuge < 1267675589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, the object IS pushed inward by the wals of the centrifuge < 1267675593 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267675594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats a centriPETAL force < 1267675600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a centrifugal force. < 1267675630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: yes, but in the _rotating_ frame that is canceled _by_ the centrifugal force, precisely to allow the net force to be zero < 1267675656 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see what you're saying < 1267675662 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1267675666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :progress :D < 1267675719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you had a mass on a spring, if you calculated the forces acting on the force, you would get that the mass is not experiencing non-zero "gross" force < 1267675750 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance. im using a spring because the visual reasoning is easier in such a case < 1267675777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um is this spring inside the centrifuge, or is this completely unrelated? < 1267675780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ok, definitely. in the rotating frame there would indeed be a centrifugal force. < 1267675788 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1267675798 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :object on a spring, revolving around the spring's opposite end < 1267675818 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that the spring is stretched beyond it's normal length < 1267675872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isnt changing, then if you rotated the f.o.r. with the spring, the spring's tensile properties wouldnt change, so the force must be changing < 1267675906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, thats interesting. good point. < 1267675996 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the xkcd comic should have worded it more carefully. < 1267676048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because when i initially read it, i wasnt thinking in these terms, but rather in terms of just constructing the equations for circular motion in a non-rotating reference frame < 1267676159 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267676249 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think there is good argument that any such derivation of a force is genuinely illegitimate by arguing that rotating frames of reference aren't on the same footing as non-rotating frames of reference < 1267676314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. from a rotating f.o.r. you would have to have some sort of "5th force" < 1267676379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see general relativity - you get something indistinguishable from a gravitation field < 1267676397 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not gravitational in natural, but rather different, because it has no source, propogates infinitely fast, radiates in only two dimensions, and has a falloff such that all objects, regardless of mass, have precisely the same revolution rate < 1267676436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh all objects moving the same regardless of mass _is_ a gravitational feature < 1267676446 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aye < 1267676454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry no what i meant is distance, not mass. < 1267676475 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have same revolution rate but varying speeds of revolution < 1267676479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267676487 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is NOT true of gravity < 1267676499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that probably has something to do with absence of (nonzero) spacetime curvature < 1267676504 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, with a rotating frame, things can move faster than light. < 1267676523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267676539 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the force seems to be really rather different than gravity < 1267676551 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe its not, but it seems on its outward appearances to be quite different < 1267676573 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1267676577 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is any force < 1267676591 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except, of course, for gravity) < 1267676596 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they are all indistinguishable from gravity in their effectrs < 1267676616 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/r[^r]+$// < 1267676657 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but what im saying then is that accepting rotating reference frames as on equal footing with non-rotating references frames necessitates the existence of some sort of 5th force < 1267676669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe thats a moot point, right < 1267676684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe there is this fifth force, and it is generated by objects rotating < 1267676690 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it really does have these properties < 1267676728 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh food -> < 1267676744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iinm, people have analyzed magnetism as just an illusory relativistic version of the electrostatic force < 1267676828 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think really the fact that this 5th force is so radically different, has no force carrier particles, is undetectable except by people in the rotating reference frame, etc. suggests that its not genuine. < 1267676849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1267676863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, maybe in some sense you could detect the frame dragging of the rotating object, but that would take non-zero time to detect from a non-zero distance < 1267676864 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably do something like retaking an online test I scored poorly on soonish < 1267676876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the rotating frame would see this force as propogating instantly < 1267676886 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will be unable to in about half an hour < 1267677029 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if we assume that rotating reference frames are genuinely as valid as other reference frames, you have a world in which things can accelerate and decelerate at rates that have no correlation with their mass, the and gain and loose energy on a whim for no apparent reason, but everything in the universe experiences these things simultaneously by necessity < 1267677060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: btw don't be so sure about no force carrier particles. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unruh_effect < 1267677109 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me continue :P < 1267677116 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i guess that could be taken as a way to detect which frames were "really" non-accelerating < 1267677149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the point is, oerjan, accelerating frames of reference are not equivalent to non-accelerating frames of reference < 1267677171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the laws of physics as observed in them change. this is not true of a constant motion frame of reference < 1267677221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i guess in general relativity it's actually _free-falling_ frames (which are not global btw) which are special, if any < 1267677237 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he energy content of the universe would INCREASE < 1267677245 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :violating the laws of thermodynamics. < 1267677254 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267677259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres a conclusive reason to take accelerating frames as generally not valid. < 1267677310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: ah but you're forgetting gravitational potential. without that, energy is not preserved even in inertial frames i think < 1267677336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure what gravitational potential iss < 1267677346 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the sum total of all energy in the Universe is 0 < 1267677356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the potential energy due to height differences, say < 1267677374 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well, in that case i think it would move above 0 for this sort of thing < 1267677382 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the fictional force was taken into account maybe < 1267677426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but are you sure it's zero? because a universe of just EM radiation has energy but no gravity < 1267677433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the way general relativity really handles this is by saying the coordinate system doesn't actually matter, only the tensors (which change between systems) < 1267677434 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the total energy of the universe cant be zero < 1267677449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: there is a theory that the total energy is zero < 1267677454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well. < 1267677469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that this is how matter/energy could be created in the big bang < 1267677483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hypothesized zerolity of the universal energy content should not be considered in this discussion ;P < 1267677498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by being offset by negative energy of the space expansion, iiuc < 1267677528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(during the so-called inflation stage) < 1267677694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and one more thing, not all solutions to general relativity equations _have_ a meaningful total energy, so a rotating coordinate system may indeed violate that (i don't know) < 1267677719 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not saying its not a potential idea, right < 1267677733 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, look, you could say that yes, the laws of the universe are different when viewed in an inertial frame < 1267677736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1267677739 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in an accelerating frame < 1267677745 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes they are just as valid in that frame as well < 1267677749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite being very different < 1267677759 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet they STILL produce the same universe, isnt that interesting and totally cool < 1267677769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'd be on board with that as a queer perspective < 1267677803 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there would still be a little part of me that would want to say "but is it as simple as the non-accelerating frame? because if not, then its probably not real..." < 1267677895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you look at that unruh article btw? < 1267678294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a little bit. < 1267678313 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that noones actually DETECTED this hypothesized effect... < 1267678556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm. it also seems related to hawking radiation, which has the same problem. < 1267678574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1267678582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean energy content of the universe sorts of problems? < 1267678596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not being detected problem :D < 1267678603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267678609 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION disables tapping on his trackpad
< 1267678613 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever it's called < 1267678615 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hawking radiation has been detected i think < 1267678624 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe its so faint it cant be detected currently < 1267678625 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267678632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :far too faint < 1267678682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would take a very small black hole to detect < 1267678727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe if the lhc makes some... < 1267678740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is very hypothetical afaiu) < 1267678742 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if the unruh effect IS observable, it seems to only be the emission of photons < 1267678745 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not some special force carrier < 1267678776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes the unruh effect unlikely to be justifiably said to be the magic force undergirding the force viewed in an accelerating f.o.r. < 1267678779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the force carrier would be the same as for gravity, since it's the same mathematics... < 1267678797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the behavior wouldnt look like gravity at all < 1267678834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1267678882 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all im saying is that i think the rotating frame is arguably not a valid frame of reference. < 1267678930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that a reasonable observer viewing a video of the universe filmed on a rotating camera would not conclude that the universe had such and such laws < 1267678943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but would instead conclude that the camera was spinning. < 1267678951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that the universe has the laws we see. < 1267679016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watchmaker < 1267679024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ey? < 1267679046 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your argument is like the watchmaker argument < 1267679057 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it relies on an assumption of human intuition < 1267679064 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not valid scientifically < 1267679293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, let me rephrase that < 1267679324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that in the full space of theories, the simplest one, in all possible formal representations possible, would be the one in which the camera is rotating and the universe is not. < 1267679626 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are some differences between rotating and non-rotatin unvierses < 1267679640 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh? < 1267679643 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if the universe is rotating, having it not rotate is not a valid interpretation < 1267679670 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267679683 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the universe IS rotating, then its rotating relative to some non-rotating reference frame < 1267679695 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the simplest laws should still fall out of the non-rotating reference frame < 1267679706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point is that you would discover the universe to BE rotating < 1267679718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas with the rotating camera, you dont think the universe is rotating at all < 1267679719 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that's the fun bit < 1267679732 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe can rotate relative to nothing in particular < 1267679736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think the universe genuinely is not rotating, but that it has these crazy laws of physics. < 1267679752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this gives different results for some things than if it is not < 1267679754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well sure, in some weird way, but you still describe it as rotating < 1267679761 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is really the point. < 1267679761 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note 1: I don't know what thos things are < 1267679767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note 2: Our universe does not rotate < 1267679767 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that you understand the universe as rotating < 1267679772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the crucial part < 1267679808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you accept an actually rotating reference frame as being valid, and say that the rotation is not a feature of the reference frame, its all relative < 1267679816 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same way that inertial references frames are all relative < 1267679844 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you essentiall say that actually no, its acceptable to say the camera isnt rotating, the UNIVERSE is rotating. or the stuff in it is revolving rather. < 1267679847 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not like that < 1267679851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is my point < 1267679865 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant take rotation to be relative like you take motion to be relative < 1267679866 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :special relativity would remain valid in a rotating universe < 1267679875 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so inertial equivalencies arent rotational equivalences < 1267679879 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :special relativity might < 1267679885 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, even then it wouldnt < 1267679887 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267679892 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in a rotating UNIVERSE, maybe < 1267679895 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267679899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but im not talking about a rotating universe < 1267679904 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you aren't? < 1267679906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im talking about a universe in which the stuff in it is rotating < 1267679914 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1267679920 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you could have said so < 1267679920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take a camera, spin it. you're not saying a "rotating universe" < 1267679935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, either perspective is valid < 1267679943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're seeing a universe that isnt rotating, but in which the objects in it all seem to orbit the camera's viewing axis < 1267679951 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, having the camera rotate is much easier < 1267679958 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my point is that i think the second perspective is NOT as valid < 1267679990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in the grand scheme of things, that hypothesize about the nature of the pictured universe is more complicated than the rotating-camera version < 1267680009 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are both valid < 1267680014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is general relativity in a nutshell < 1267680020 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the same way that sure, you can say that the sun orbits the earth, and everything else orbits the earth too, only in crazy epicycles at infinitum < 1267680042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, thats "equally valid" but its not "equally real" i think. < 1267680051 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i dont think thats what general relativity says at all. < 1267680068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im willing to bet that general relativity addresses the point in a much finer grained way < 1267680069 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define "real" < 1267680074 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1267680085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any and every point of reference is valid < 1267680104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the general relativity view would match up with what i mean by valid. < 1267680131 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, im CERTAIN it does, because im just mirroring general relativity. < 1267680152 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the passage of time is "real" on the accelerating object, hence why the twin paradox exists < 1267680154 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you perform all calculations assuming that everything in the universe is orbiting around a fixed point? yes. Is it useful? no < 1267680168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no but coppro < 1267680170 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the thing ok < 1267680187 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in general relativity, i think the point is that the UNIVERSE rotating is equally valid < 1267680199 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the UNIVERSE rotating is not the same thing as the stuff IN IT rotating < 1267680202 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the twin paradox exists due to the difference in perspective relative to the rest of the universe < 1267680207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267680210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats the point! < 1267680224 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the REST universe is not merely the "rest" universe, as in the one not moving < 1267680228 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather, the one NOT ACCELERATING < 1267680250 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the twin paradox ceases to exist if both twins set off in rockets at different times < 1267680267 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the twin paradox also ceases to exist if the only two things in the Universe are the two twins < 1267680269 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it crucially depends on precisely ONE of them experiencing more acceleration than the other. < 1267680279 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt cease toe xist < 1267680310 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, because there is nothing against which to reference the acceleration < 1267680328 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok let me prove to you in a galileian way how you're wrong < 1267680336 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose that one twin is a pig < 1267680340 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, loves to eat < 1267680352 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he eats SO MUCH that he eats everything in the universe, except his brother < 1267680378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there are just two things in the universe < 1267680379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the twins < 1267680384 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of which is really _Really_ fat < 1267680399 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but according to you, the twin paradox should vanish now < 1267680431 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the relative motions of the masses of the universe is identical < 1267680446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one twin, the thin one, is moving away from the other twin, accelerating at such and such a rate < 1267680463 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this twin being so piggish is merely academic. < 1267680477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could tie the mass to that twin and the effect would be the same < 1267680492 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, why bother with the rope, since the masses arent moving relative to one another, we can cut the rope too < 1267680496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now we're back at the universe as it is < 1267680497 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but because there is nothing else to refer to, you can equally say that the other twin is accelerating away < 1267680503 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you cant! < 1267680507 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the POINT of the twin paradox! < 1267680512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is NOT what GR says < 1267680524 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which breaks down when there is nothing else in the universe < 1267680532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesnt < 1267680540 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example: If there is only one particle in the universe, it experiences no force if accelerated < 1267680560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if there is only one particle in the universe, it cant accelerate. < 1267680567 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there would be no forces acting upon it. < 1267680575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modulo quantum weirdness. < 1267680586 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a prior theres no forces acting on it < 1267680594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because to have a force acting on it, you need a force carrier particle < 1267680599 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus at least two particles < 1267680620 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only case where the twin paradox can "vanish" is in a case where it cant even happen! < 1267680641 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by necessity there is ALWAYS other matter in the universe < 1267680730 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're missing the point < 1267680736 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, _you're_ missing the point < 1267680753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that reality doesnt work like you say it does < 1267680756 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :demonstrably. < 1267680760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as was just demonstrabled. < 1267680767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never demonstrated it < 1267680771 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just did. < 1267680780 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you provided a thought experiment with incorrect conclusions < 1267680787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no possible way to accelerate a particle if its the only particle in the universe. < 1267680796 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely the point < 1267680798 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since the 1-particle-universe is the only one in which you're correct < 1267680808 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1267680814 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only one in which you could even POSSIBLY be correct < 1267680831 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since we know that in THAT universe, theres no actual way for you to be correct < 1267680834 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must not be correct. < 1267680840 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd find you a paper, except the book I have which cites it is upstairs and I don't feel like paging through it < 1267680855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd find me a paper and i would show you why the paper agrees with me ;) < 1267680934 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're right in some imaginary not-real universe in which force and thus acceleration isnt transmitted by force carriers < 1267680936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're right < 1267680947 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats a universe that doesn't exist. < 1267680971 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real universe is one in which the non-accelerating frame is the true frame of reference. < 1267681085 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shall conclude this argument with a brief quote from Wikipedia < 1267681087 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As part of the general theory, all reference frames are equivalent, even rotating frames. " < 1267681120 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but like i said, i think the GR notion of "equivalence" is different than what we're using here. < 1267681256 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the GR notion of equivalence is closer to "has a consistent physical analysis that can describe the same physical phenomena" < 1267681266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a symmetry < 1267681311 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think that is entirely true. im willing to BET that rotating reference frames, like the rotating camera, DEMAND general relativity in order to describe them correctly. < 1267681363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, if physicists from another dimension saw a video taken on a rotating camera, they'd have to invent general relativity to fully describe the physical laws they saw, if they were assuming that the camera wasn't rotating but that the rest of the universe's objects were revolving around some point. < 1267681368 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would BET that that is true. < 1267681372 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267681387 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite possibly < 1267681423 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but surely they'd have to invent it anyways, as it is a required part of describing all phenomena in a non-rotating universe as well? < 1267681489 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not necessarily. i mean, maybe its true that a priori the laws of physics make this so, regardless of the laws of physics < 1267681517 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe not. it could entirely be that what we're calling general relativity is just an artifact of our incorrect assumptions about the nature of the universe < 1267681529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that its merely an illusion < 1267681531 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, newtonian gravity would be insufficient < 1267681541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but you'd have this 5th force remember < 1267681545 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus god knows what else < 1267681553 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newtonian gravity couldnt even be conceived of < 1267681577 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the entire set of laws would be different < 1267681585 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean in a non-rotating frame of reference < 1267681589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, sure < 1267681747 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so either way they'd have to construct the same laws in the end < 1267681757 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267681786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, laws that would, i really really suspect, but relatable VIA general relativity < 1267681881 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267681924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would be general relativity that would relate the two different versions of physics. that GR provides the isomorphism, hence why it IS true that rotating frames are "equivalent" < 1267681965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats a hunch, i dont know. < 1267681992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think that GR is necessary to describe our universe precisely because you need to be able to do that kind of isomorphism < 1267682001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever kind of morphism it'd be < 1267682064 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort of confused now < 1267682084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind :p < 1267682093 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267682442 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267682536 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267682596 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267682794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ok, heres my explanation of what i meant < 1267682802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that if you tried to describe the cameraverse < 1267682818 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would read a point where you would invent the _exact_ same GR equations < 1267682841 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in doing so, camera einstein would draw the same conclusions about rotating reference frames < 1267682855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because in cameraverse, a rotating reference frame makes the universe look like realverse < 1267682917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not merely that you would have to invent some sort of equivalent of GR, but that the equations of GR are the same regardless of the starting point, because they're equations that relate different models of physical law < 1267682926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than equations that merely describe a new kind of physical law < 1267683029 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I agree < 1267683043 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats my suspicion < 1267683050 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now explain how you didn't just prove the equivalence of a universe with nothing rotating and with everything rotating? < 1267683073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, i think thats the _GR_ notion of equivalence < 1267683091 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your argument is that you would make the exact same equations < 1267683096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore they are not equivalent? < 1267683100 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but thats not the notion of equivalence that i was using in this discussion. actually, i tried to stick to "equally valid" but whatever < 1267683110 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre GR equivalent, yes. < 1267683116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i dont think they're equally _valid_ < 1267683126 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you define as equally valid? < 1267683152 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more real, in a deutchean sense of real < 1267683161 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deutschean** < 1267683176 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite follow < 1267683186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, if you have two models, one of which is simpler, and the other is just a coy rephrasing of the one, by playing some complication tricks < 1267683190 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely because I don't know that word < 1267683205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then the simpler one is more valid as a view on what reality is like < 1267683217 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree < 1267683219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. sure, epicycles can model the solarsystem perfectly well < 1267683228 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267683260 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the heliocentric solar system is simpler, the epicyclic model merely looks like a convoluted attempt to describe a heliocentric model as if it were geocentric < 1267683269 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complexity is not, in my mind, the reason that the geocentric system is incorrect < 1267683273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the heliocentric model is more valid as a guess as to what reality is like. < 1267683294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, but coppro, you can certainly construct some insane physical theory in which the universe _IS_ geocentric < 1267683310 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Sure, but the planets would still rotate the sun < 1267683317 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no thats my point < 1267683318 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the other planets, that is) < 1267683326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could construct a version where the planets DONT revolve around the sun < 1267683328 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just APPEAR to < 1267683346 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only superficially < 1267683353 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but what is superficial? < 1267683358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just reference frame stuff < 1267683364 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Superficial in the sense that it would only function so far < 1267683371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i dont think so < 1267683390 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would be completely possible to have a model of physics in which the entire thing is consistent with known facts AND is geocentric < 1267683395 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would have to invent relativity and quantum mechanics at some point < 1267683419 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at that point we're not talking about solar-system centricity anymore < 1267683425 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we are < 1267683429 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267683430 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe needs to be taken as a whole < 1267683439 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but thats what im saying < 1267683474 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you believe the universe is geocentric, which is to say that it revolves around the earth, as opposed to its center of mass (if one exists), i think the laws could still work out < 1267683479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they'd be complicated as hell < 1267683497 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe they'd just be some sort of vector translation over current laws, who knows < 1267683518 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why, for instance, Newtonian mechanics failed at describing the precession of Mercury accurately < 1267683543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but that doesnt mean you cant embellish the theory further and further < 1267683556 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it would be entirely possible to embellish < 1267683571 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just think the embellishments would be some sort of coy recoding of heliocentricity < 1267683581 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can < 1267683585 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats my point < 1267683598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have this intuition that coy recoding is not a valid translation of reference frames < 1267683608 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you embellished it enough, you would result at a theory as accurate as general relativity that was far more complex but equally valid < 1267683609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think that the GR-rotating-frame thing is merely a coy recoding. < 1267683621 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not have such an intuition < 1267683636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you apparently have this belief that heliocentrism is more valid than geocentrism < 1267683638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore you do. < 1267683665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you're changing your mind and saying that yeah what the heck, the solar system is geocentric and the different embellished physics is just as valid. < 1267683692 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a belief that no one has yet come up with any geocentric theory as accurate as our heliocentric ones < 1267683721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true, but who's been trying for the last 500 years. < 1267683726 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A geocentric theory, if embellished to the point of agreeing precisely with our best heliocentric theories, will be accurate < 1267683728 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thus valid < 1267683731 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why bother? itll be a horrendous theory < 1267683749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the heliocentric solarsystem is simpler, makes more sense, etc. < 1267683758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just better < 1267683777 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i would say a more valid model of what the universe is REALLY like < 1267683788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I completely agree < 1267683795 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the heliocentric model would be much cleaner and nicer < 1267683797 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no more valid < 1267683802 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just taking david deutscher's line here, btw. < 1267683813 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do note that you must include the other criterion of theoretical validity though < 1267683815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, deutsch** < 1267683822 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the amount of prediction a theory makes < 1267683835 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, im considering equally accurate models. < 1267683857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your geocentric theory cannot accomodate a brand new object placed somewhere between here and the sun without manually finangling with it, the theory is less valid, since our heliocentric theory can < 1267683868 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, this is verging on metaphysics here, ill be honest, ok < 1267683889 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two completely extensionally equivalent models can, i think, differ in how valid they are as models of reality < 1267683892 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simplicity is not, in and of itself, a test of validity < 1267683897 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my opinion < 1267683906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont care about your opinion. this is obvious. :P < 1267683911 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's intuitive < 1267683920 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is different from correct < 1267683922 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think reality is simple. < 1267683925 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see: Paley's watchmaker argument < 1267683931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fact: reality is not simple < 1267683937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :his watchmaker argument is unrelated to this. < 1267683941 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not at all < 1267683944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is. < 1267683950 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your falling prey to the exact same fallacy < 1267683954 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i'm not. < 1267683962 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because his argument is in FAVOR of simplicity. < 1267683987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the argument against his argument, rather. < 1267683998 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evolutionary biology is simpler than God. < 1267684002 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why paley is wrong. < 1267684014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not why Paley is wrong < 1267684023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just believe occam's razor wholeheartedly < 1267684035 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paley is wrong because his argument starts with the assumption that the watch is too complex to be natural < 1267684039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think occam's razor is a methodological tool, i think its a fact about reality. < 1267684056 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: do you know anything about quantum physics? How the fuck is that simple? < 1267684071 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur < 1267684081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum mechanics is probability in 3 dimensions, or something along those lines. < 1267684096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*augur: Think about math. There is a set-theoretical definition of the integers that is just as valid as the version that just uses numerals < 1267684102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its actually quite beautifully simple when you work it out from a non-historigenic perspective. < 1267684114 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that it is more complex does not make it incorrect < 1267684144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can derive the core weirdness of QM almost entirely from taking normal probability and augmenting it with like one extra dimension for degrees of freedom, or something like that. < 1267684166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: i didnt say incorrect < 1267684168 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not listening < 1267684174 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said less real. < 1267684217 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said less valid < 1267684227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, valid, as a model of whats real. < 1267684240 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This conversation becomes a billion times funnier if I replace "non-historigenic" by "non-hystorigenic" < 1267684252 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is to say, how close it is to looking like the way the thing actually is < 1267684252 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :valid only has one meaning with regards to theories < 1267684257 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I've explained < 1267684268 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#1: Does it match all observations < 1267684272 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#2: Does it make predictions < 1267684275 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well luckily the original context of its use in this discussion wasnt in regards to theories! < 1267684285 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it was < 1267684289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather in regards to frames of reference < 1267684294 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a frame of reference is not a theory < 1267684295 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All physical laws are theories < 1267684304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but a frame of reference isnt a physical law. < 1267684315 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the context in which you are using it, it is < 1267684322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we've drifted over into the physical law territory at this point < 1267684323 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes this is true < 1267684358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but we started with frames of reference, and i assumed that an intelligent person like you would be smart enough to understand that the word was being used to mean the same thing, despite the conventionally different usage when applied to theories < 1267684372 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, as I said, a theory could be considered more valid because it makes more predictions < 1267684387 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said coppro, you're wrong. < 1267684392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267684407 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the sense of valid i have been using throughout the conversation is the one i started with < 1267684416 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which happens to have been used in a context of frames of reference, not theories < 1267684423 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree that there is any significant difference < 1267684433 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i dont give a shit < 1267684437 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there IS a difference. < 1267684442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a frame of reference is not a theory. < 1267684457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore your idea of validity for theories is irrelevant. < 1267684460 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a theory of which frame of reference is correct < 1267684469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you disagree with this, then were merely arguing over the lexical semantics of the word "valid" < 1267684480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case this isnt an argument at all < 1267684484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but rather a miscommunication < 1267684497 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be a miscommunication, but the fundamental argument is still there < 1267684502 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its not < 1267684510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a frame of reference is simply not a theory < 1267684536 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I do not believe that there is any particular reason why a rotating frame against a static universe is any more real or valid than a static frame against a rotating universe < 1267684554 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is your fundamental point < 1267684574 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but as ive already said, i believe that there is. < 1267684580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether you AGREE with that or not is not relevant. < 1267684648 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what it comes down to is in many ways theory-related in nature tho, this is definitely true, but again, as ive said even so far as theories are concerned, i believe that two equally accurate theories can differ in how similar the theory-qua-intension reflects the actual structure of reality < 1267684657 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, and I do not agree < 1267684660 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the point of this argumen < 1267684662 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*argument < 1267684667 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are arguing over the point I just described < 1267684670 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many types of types are there? < 1267684675 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :adu: infinitely many. < 1267684688 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1267684721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: since there is no actual way to resolve this dispute, as i have said multiple times: your disagreement with what i think doesn't matter. < 1267684736 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's gotta be a way to simplify that, like maybe oo/2 or something < 1267684748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its even worse, adu < 1267684758 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so now you are not only telling me that I am wrong, but that my opinion does not matter; welcome to /ignore < 1267684766 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are as many types as the largest kind of infinity < 1267684774 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since there is no largest infinity, you're fucked D: < 1267684797 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: im saying that it doesnt matter because its not something that we can argue over and come to a conclusion. < 1267684817 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about constructive type theory, like X is a type, and F is a function type, so F X is a type < 1267684836 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then there would be 2 types of type < 1267684838 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that probably doesnt change anything. < 1267684863 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can define horizontal types of arbitrary number < 1267684875 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horizontal?!? < 1267684880 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267684894 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you mean different names? < 1267684897 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :within type theory you can view types as existing in two-ish dimensions < 1267684909 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so consider the following types: < 1267684913 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Integer, String, Boolean < 1267684922 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1267684929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now consider Integer -> Boolean, Boolean -> Boolean -> Boolean, etc. < 1267684934 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION considers
< 1267684943 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter two are dependent upon the existence of the previous three, right? < 1267684948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theyre built out of them, in some sense < 1267684961 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267684968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we could describe this relation as a horizontal type distinction < 1267684987 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the differences between Integer, String, and Boolean, however, are not the same < 1267684992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're horizontally related < 1267685001 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could imagine a type system with only horizontal types < 1267685009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a language in which you dont have function ty < 1267685010 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :types < 1267685024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, you dont have function types in any salient sense < 1267685054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. C, in which sure maybe you have function types associated with functions, but function types arent of the same ontological status in the type system as value types are < 1267685094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot, for instance, do higher order functions, so function types in C arent really things that you can talk about like you can with value types < 1267685105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could, however, have the reverse -- a system with only function types < 1267685121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one "horizontal" type, in some sense < 1267685134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My C compiler offers first-class functions. < 1267685144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a system in which non-functions are of type Value, and everything else is a function type of some sort < 1267685157 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: C99+yaddayadda whatever it is that they use at apple now? < 1267685168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clang. < 1267685178 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have an Apple system. < 1267685179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the newest versions of C, as forked by apple i think, have higher order functions, which necessitates real function types. which is pretty cool. < 1267685199 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the point is understandable i think. < 1267685214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :function types and value types really different in some sense conceptually < 1267685221 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it does not offer first-class functions < 1267685225 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it offers blocks < 1267685240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, the versions ive seen have first class functions. < 1267685262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may be called blocks, but in-language they're indistinguishable from functions, as far as i can tell. < 1267685307 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and are distinct from blocks in the normal sense of the word in programming where the clauses of an if statement are blocks. < 1267685345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: "Blocks" are a first-class function type. < 1267685354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which happen to be distinct form normal functions. < 1267685371 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. From. < 1267685395 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically correct, though misleading in the context of C < 1267685416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're functions and they're first-class values. < 1267685437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What more do you want, aside from being able to implicitly cast from function pointers to block pointers? < 1267685457 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and vice versa) < 1267685596 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: again, given that the C was used merely as an example to intelligent people capable of understanding the nature of the nit picky details in terminology, it should be relatively clear that your pedantic distinctions are pointless, because we already knew everything you're saying, or would be fully capable of understanding the trivial distinctions being made. < 1267685631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you seem to have significant problems carrying on normal discourses. < 1267685799 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is one of the problems with me being a linguist. ive actually done research on what constitutes successful conversations, and can identify failures, and yet am powerless to correct them. < 1267685902 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267685944 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267686090 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267686660 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://trololololololololololo.com/ < 1267686663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Ouch. < 1267686669 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ey? < 1267686889 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267686931 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: He's a good ... "singer"? Although I'm not convinced that he's human. < 1267686964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: well, he IS russian. so. < 1267686968 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also not sure what the point of this web site is ... I assumed at some point he'd start going "lol lol lol" and it would just loop him like that forever,. < 1267686972 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even russian, he's SOVIET < 1267686992 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is an actual video from the soviet union < 1267687003 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i dont think there needs to be such a thing as you described < 1267687013 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267687151 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well yeah, it's weird, I just don't get why this web page exists :P < 1267687220 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor < 1267687233 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's me. < 1267687236 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :youve been on the web HOW long and still havent realized that webpages dont need reasons? < 1267687240 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267687243 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touché, sir. < 1267687249 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bought onero.us and sibeli.us today :P < 1267687262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAVE YA HEARD ABOUT THAT YTMND.COM YET NA? < 1267687272 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I /really/ don't get. < 1267687647 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267689216 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267689599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267689600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267693585 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267693743 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-12-12.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267694920 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267695126 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267695326 0 :lifthrasiir!2S9aa0Nd@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267696366 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267698855 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267699482 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267699754 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ANantes-259-1-77-160.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267700893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1267700923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horrible music interrupted by "you now have place number 5 in the queue" < 1267701545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what happened? Well, had to call IBM/Lenvo telephone support, then get told the reseller didn't register with them when the computer was sold, so had to call *their* telephone support as well) < 1267701551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the latter had the horrible music) < 1267701643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not even the usual simply bad music... Much worse, rap music...) < 1267702117 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Telephone support systems tend to have the oddest audible experiences. < 1267702184 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compounded by the fact that the codecs used in GSM/3G networks do a really horrible job on any sort of music, they're so heavily speech-optimized. < 1267702885 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1267703111 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267703955 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1267703958 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1267703959 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267704938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Compounded by the fact that the codecs used in GSM/3G networks do a really horrible job on any sort of music, they're so heavily speech-optimized. <-- hm? < 1267704951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I doubt that applies when I used a non-cell phone < 1267704953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, land line < 1267704959 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was sort of assuming a cell phone there. < 1267704967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267704972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 2010, man! < 1267704978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be more expensive than using the land line to call < 1267705002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but it was a wireless land line phone at least < 1267705015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could have used the non-wireless one in the next room instead < 1267705016 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the current land-line digital networks are a bit speech-optimized too, though not as badly by far. < 1267705019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have been somewhat more awkward < 1267705184 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the worst part about landline telephone music is that they only transfer frequencies in the [200, 3400] Hz range. < 1267705206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, GSM/EDGE/3G transfers more? < 1267705215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they're equally horrible. < 1267705219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267705240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267705252 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except 3G's AMR-WB wideband codec, which goes up to something like 7 kHz, but from what I hear, no operator (except some really strange never-heard country) has actually enabled that in their networks. < 1267705263 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267705279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about low freqs? < 1267705326 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might have gone a bit lower there too, though I don't really recall. < 1267705390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm able to hit some low notes with my voice (I suck at hitting a specific one _reliably_ though ;)) < 1267705437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can read below 200 Hz pretty easily unless I misremember. But not in everyday speech I guess) < 1267705441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Humans are pretty good at picking up the "real" pitch from the harmonics even if the transport channel actually filters it, physically speaking. < 1267705449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/read/hit/ < 1267705460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(weird typo, was trying to to two things at once) < 1267705482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm interesting. From overtones I guess? < 1267705500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Case in point: a usual fundamental frequency for normal male speech is around 100 Hz, yet no-one notices that much even though telephone systems generally have a huge attenuation at that low frequencies. < 1267705520 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.16 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267705528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I can hit just above the lowest C on a standard piano with my voice though < 1267705574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really know very much on the biology side of how auditory perception works, except that the ear is a strange thing, and what goes on after the ear is even less simple. < 1267705595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite reach it. Of course it doesn't actually sound good at the lowest bit. For something I actually could *speak* in it would be maybe one octave higher I guesstimate < 1267705776 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the "middle C" is around 260 Hz, and I assume that "middle" on the piano; is the lowest C three octaves downward? < 1267705791 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is, that'd be something like 32 Hz. < 1267705803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies < 1267705819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, around 32 Hz yes < 1267705858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. That's pretty low. < 1267705890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I can go past the D just above it, but not quite reach the C or C#. Of course I couldn't actually say anything at this level. Trying to modulate the sound around there to speech just doesn't work. < 1267705912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit above it does work for that. < 1267705944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so I hit somewhere between 34 and 36 Hz I guess (since I can't quite reach that C# either) < 1267706029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ever tried making a noise at the same frequency as the car engine while traveling in car? < 1267706052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't say I have. < 1267706054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels strange when you hit the same tone. < 1267706173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:16:34 you know, I sort of like this channel without alise being here all the time < 1267706173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do logread, you know < 1267706254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so now you have your mac running I see :) < 1267706273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, yes, on top of an ironing board. Very sturdy surface. But I had it running last night. < 1267706278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267706292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit's got terribly, terribly real with my situation so... so, I don't even know what I was going to put here. < 1267706532 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267706556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, a 5 on the exam on the first sub-course in the electricity and electronics course < 1267706557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267706562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just got the result
< 1267706592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the possible values are U, 3, 4, 5, where U is "not passed") < 1267706595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:25:36 suppose that one twin is a pig < 1267706596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:25:40 as in, loves to eat < 1267706596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:25:52 he eats SO MUCH that he eats everything in the universe, except his brother < 1267706596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plausible < 1267706618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why did augur need to suppose that? < 1267706629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argument about relativity, twin paradox < 1267706630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.03.03 < 1267706633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also that would include himself < 1267706637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267706639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't eat yourself. < 1267706656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, surely you can eat your own leg for example? < 1267706663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, other parts may be harder < 1267706695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shush :P < 1267706767 0 :cheater!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267706778 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267706796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:12:06 what do you define as equally valid? < 1267706796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur seems to just be appealing to a sort of ontological notion of "truth beyond truth" < 1267706812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., one truth being /more/ truthy than other truths by way of being more "inherently objective" to the situation < 1267706816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just my hunch from reading it though < 1267706974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe there is an inherent link of simplicity and correctness; that's just a heuristic we use for estimating probability and reasoning and doing science < 1267707048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:27:19 i dont think occam's razor is a methodological tool, i think its a fact about reality. < 1267707048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delusional < 1267707103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't Occam himself use occam's razor for "proving" the existence of god iirc? < 1267707121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:30:52 which is to say, how close it is to looking like the way the thing actually is < 1267707121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can only measure this with metaphysics < 1267707130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1267707136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Things "actually are" a theory if it predicts them perfectly < 1267707154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any other distinction is human intuition, and we can select equivalently valid theories based on how much we like them (e.g. simplicity for working with) < 1267707155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all. < 1267707193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:37:50 how many types of types are there? < 1267707194 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set : Set1 < 1267707196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set1 : Set2 < 1267707197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1267707211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267707221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, countably infinite then? < 1267707230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, no < 1267707230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:38:41 coppro: since there is no actual way to resolve this dispute, as i have said multiple times: your disagreement with what i think doesn't matter. < 1267707231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can defeat your position with your position. < 1267707270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: It is simpler to assume that all theories that are equally valid-as-predictors are equally valid, than to introduce an entire notion of metaphysics where some theory is more correct than another simply because it is simpler. < 1267707280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the former is simpler, it is true; therefore theories are not more valid just because they are simpler. < 1267707284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Contradiction, bitchnizzle! < 1267707347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nice one < 1267707426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:56:39 this is one of the problems with me being a linguist. ive actually done research on what constitutes successful conversations, and can identify failures, and yet am powerless to correct them. < 1267707426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woe that the world is so much dumber than I! < 1267707432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go slit your wrists or something < 1267707434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267707654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh nice google holiday logo < 1267708916 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello sweeties < 1267709615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION attempts to find an ULV laptop
< 1267712189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: alise < 1267713528 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267716961 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think I've found two (closely related) bugs in cfunge's y-with-positive-argument < 1267717053 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) It skips over the terminating null of the environment variables (i.e. the additional one which terminates them all) < 1267717167 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) It pushes some nonsense value instead of that null, I think < 1267717186 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case I'd actually call it one bug, I changed my mind a bit there between 1) and 2) < 1267717213 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait, I was right the first time < 1267717268 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2) It seems to push an incorrect value if asked for the topmost value on the stack (i.e. argument = number of cells it pushes (+-1?)) < 1267717384 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267717406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm < 1267717434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, test cases for these? < 1267717434 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can test with the following (warning: infinite-looping, use head -n{number of cells it pushes} to terminate it): 1> #;:.:y#@.a#@,1+#;< < 1267717446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267717455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do you mean with the second one < 1267717463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" 2) It seems to push an incorrect value if asked for the topmost value on the stack (i.e. argument = number of cells it pushes (+-1?))" < 1267717479 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267717480 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean y used as a pick instruction to pick the topmost value on the stack < 1267717487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267717490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That test program basically runs Xy for every X, looping forever < 1267717496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X greater than 0 < 1267717497 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-12-12.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267717531 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my machine, cfunge prints there "2751 56" "2752 0" "2753 32785" and then an infinite number of zeroes < 1267717560 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 2), that should be "2753 2753" < 1267717595 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for 1), there should be another zero in between those two nonzero values < 1267717634 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI2 prints "2749 56" "2750 0" "2751 0" "2752 2752" and I think it's right. :-P < 1267717650 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Off-by-one because args[0] is "ccbi" not "cfunge") < 1267717653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267717665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I get this before the inf zeros: < 1267717666 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually it should be off-by-two < 1267717672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2536 105 < 1267717673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2537 100 < 1267717673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2538 0 < 1267717673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2539 32785 < 1267717678 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1267717680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed weird < 1267717724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and long live valgrind < 1267717774 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh right, it's off-by-one and not two because cfunge only prints one zero >_< < 1267717798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm? < 1267717820 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Just confusing myself, not important :-P < 1267717829 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267717843 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267717857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so what are the bugs then? That it gets a invalid read somewhere there? < 1267717868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the other bug caused by it or not? < 1267717869 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I said < 1267717871 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're missing a zero < 1267717877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you're printing 32785 instead of 2539 < 1267717881 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, pushing < 1267717883 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same difference < 1267717908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I am pushing an extra zero it seems when looking at things < 1267717929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I begin with pushing a zero, then all the env vars? < 1267717951 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're supposed to push that zero, it's the one that terminates the list of env vars < 1267717966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes, I said it is being done there as far as I can tell < 1267717988 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That program should be printing two zeroes before 2539 (32785) < 1267717998 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first zero terminates the last env var < 1267718002 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second terminates the list of env vars < 1267718010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, do you have a good/bad test case for this? I'm not completely sure what exactly the expected result is, and since env variables differ... < 1267718011 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Under cfunge, it's only printing one zero < 1267718027 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Two zeroes. Regardless of env variables (except if you have none at all) < 1267718053 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Since the stack is supposed to look like " 0 0gnirts 0gnirts ..." < 1267718066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well the 32785 looks like it is out of range value < 1267718084 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite possibly < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attaching to program: /proc/16804/fd/1014, process 16804 < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x000000000040e351 in stack_get_index (stack=0x6008520, index=0) at /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/stack.c:181 < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :181 return stack->entries[index - 1]; < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gdb) print index < 1267718089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$1 = 0 < 1267718092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah right... < 1267718094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1267718117 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if you fix that the other problem will fix itself... < 1267718133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Also, is there a replacement for rage.kuonet.org? < 1267718150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1 should be first element it seems hstack_get_indexm < 1267718151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm* < 1267718152 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. a homepagey-type thing < 1267718160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION kicks synergy's copy paste failure
< 1267718168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or should I just pull from launchpad these days < 1267718168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I don't have one no < 1267718173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, launchpad yes < 1267718186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I'm trying to figure out what stack_get_index() is supposed to do < 1267718193 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1267718223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well actually it seems to do the right thing. But the caller is not < 1267718253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :element 1 is supposed to be the first element from base (yes it is one-based, not zero-based, for technical reasons iirc) < 1267718286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, doesn't mycology test y as pick though < 1267718306 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that much :_P < 1267718308 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P* < 1267718328 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It tests basically picking the 10th cell from the top or something < 1267718342 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't remember exactly < 1267718382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well my fix broke mycology's check for it < 1267718385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267718421 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The check probably isn't incorrect since CCBI2 passes that as well < 1267718476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, would be useful if you could make a GOOD/BAD test for this. < 1267718507 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the 32785 thing it's relatively easy, for the other one it's a bit of a pain < 1267718520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, they are definitely related < 1267718526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same underlying cause I think < 1267718535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does 0y push the double zero? < 1267718584 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should. < 1267718591 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can obviously test for that yourself. < 1267718699 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267718715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that works correctly as far as I can tell < 1267718728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stack is at bottom 0 0 100 < 1267718829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, does mycology test FRTH? < 1267718836 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1267718838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1267718850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I can just run one program and grep for BAD < 1267718914 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267719023 0 :asiekierka!asiekierka@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267719108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise talks too much. < 1267719126 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear she talks to Bob a lot < 1267719144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft Bob? < 1267719154 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just plain old Bob < 1267719158 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, Microsoft Bob Beta 1 < 1267719163 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because RTMs are boring < 1267719165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o god < 1267719169 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Microsoft Sam, maybe < 1267719175 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though i think I'd prefer Bob < 1267719179 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, at least he has craphics < 1267719297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you say 2538 was correct value? < 1267719314 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be the same as the index < 1267719321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1267719361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, still it doesn't explain the missing zero < 1267719381 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you have to figure out what does explain it :-P < 1267719488 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm, can you tell me if the values around index 23-26 seems correct in the cfunge output? < 1267719518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically 23, 24 and 25 < 1267719533 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The diff cfunge->ccbi2 shows only differences as: handprint, version, cell size, time, argv[0], and those bugs < 1267719581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you get 23->1 24->46 25->46 ? < 1267719618 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23->1 24->97 actually but yeah < 1267719631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, 25 is also 97? < 1267719675 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why should it be? < 1267719687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what exactly is indexes 24 and 25 hm.. < 1267719697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the first funge argument < 1267719699 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. the name of the file < 1267719705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267719712 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's "arst.b98" here so 24 is 97 (a) and 25 is 114 (r) < 1267719721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :../tests/y-test.b98 < 1267719723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1267719748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that explanation didn't work then < 1267719749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267719869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it seems mycology is still broken from this < 1267719910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, argv format, how many zero bytes should there be between that the the env vars? < 1267719914 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267719928 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19. a series of sequences of characters (strings), each terminated by a null, the series terminated by an additional double null, containing the command-line arguments. (env) < 1267719934 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20. a series of strings, each terminated by a null, the series terminated by an additional null, containing the environment variables. (env) < 1267719955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, so 3 zeros in total between env and argv? < 1267720013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, no? < 1267720021 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, two zeroes in addition to the one which terminates the last arg, yes < 1267720026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1267720040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only one extra zero below the env vars < 1267720044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267720202 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes a certain twisted kind of sense in that the double null is to allow (isolated) empty arguments, but it's impossible on most if not all OSs to have an empty environment variable < 1267720237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is it? < 1267720246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, ./cfunge foo.b98 "" "" "" < 1267720246 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would it even mean? < 1267720254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that should do it? < 1267720262 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do what? < 1267720292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I thought you said "impossible [...] to have an empty argument" < 1267720360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and yeah, I can't imagine how you can get anything shorter than "X=", where X is any letter < 1267720393 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1267720553 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267720753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I have a fix for both, however since this changed some things that FRTH and y are the only users of I need to carefully test FRTH with edge case arguments < 1267720759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before I can push this < 1267720778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to remember the semanics for FRTH P
< 1267720877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FRTH doesn't say if P should start indexing at top or bottom < 1267720972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it *is* called "*Forth* pick command". < 1267720992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I don't know forth, I remember checking some forth manual for these when I implemented it < 1267721000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6.2.2030 PICK < 1267721000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CORE EXT < 1267721000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ( xu ... x1 x0 u -- xu ... x1 x0 xu ) < 1267721000 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remove u. Copy the xu to the top of the stack. An ambiguous condition exists if there are less than u+2 items on the stack before PICK is executed. < 1267721000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't remember what the actual semantics were < 1267721023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where right side is the top. < 1267721030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so 0 is top item? then 1 is the one below? < 1267721049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, after popping the count < 1267721054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. "0 pick" does the same as "dup". < 1267721344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I saw a way to optimise y as pick to be faster after first run. will probably implement that later < 1267721359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(except no one uses that...) < 1267721423 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What way's that < 1267721514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, caching size of env and arguments. Then add a fixed constant + number of stacks on stack-stack + cached value to get where picking would begon < 1267721516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :begin* < 1267721610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is forth -roll btw? < 1267721624 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you already did something like that? < 1267721629 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267721630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, not quite < 1267721724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw it seems http://rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#FRTH was retconned to mean that negative arguments to L should not reflect < 1267721732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if he at least could provide a change log < 1267721764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not that I'm going to change things here...) < 1267721791 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267721889 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Intuitively I would expect "-roll" to be the same thing as "roll" except rotating to the other direction, but I can't actually find it in the standard. < 1267721909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267721961 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I think it was an extension, I found it in some manual. < 1267721968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should then make it error out I guess, unless you can call undefined forth functions in forth. And thus reflecting is the correct thing to do < 1267721972 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267721975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1267722037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, btw I found a bug in FRTH: when the stack size is greater than range of funge_cell (cfunge always allow stack to grow to size_t-1 in theory < 1267722048 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(err, that is max value of size_t) < 1267722136 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: It could be. Gforth has as an extension "-rot" which is "rot except the other direction", so it's not a completely unexpected extension. < 1267722137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but if you have a stack larger than 2 GB, I think you have other issues than that) < 1267722168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stack can easily be larger than 2 GB on a 64-bit system. < 1267722190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, pushed fixes < 1267722203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was unable to detect any issues with FRTH apart from the above mentioned < 1267722214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, sure, but then my answer is: use 64-bit cells < 1267722239 0 :cheater99!~cheater@62.176.155.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267722240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in which case it now needs to be larger than a signed 64-bit value, but fit in an unsigned one < 1267722255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My point was that you can't say "this doesn't matter that much because you're in other problems at that point anyway" < 1267722272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, now FRTH will work anyway < 1267722282 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267722305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, also yes you have other problems at that point. More than 2 GB RAM isn't still common for the "ships with this much as standard" < 1267722314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/still/yet < 1267722317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ < 1267722325 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have enough RAM you have no problems at all < 1267722339 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267722450 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267722473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : L ( .. n -- .. n) Forth Roll command -- that stack usage description there is a bit strange, because the Forth ROLL word definitely won't leave the n value there afterwards. < 1267722481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is there any system with ~9223.372 petabytes or RAM? < 1267722508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/or/of/ < 1267722517 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 32-bit size_t, not 64-bit < 1267722547 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a 32-bit interpreter is running into size_t limits that's very easily not a problem on a modern 64-bit system (except for the interpreter itself) < 1267722563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, um... < 1267722581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you address space will be 4 GB if you have a 32-bit size_t < 1267722601 0 :scarf!~scarf@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267722647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, some of that will be taken by kernel mappings iirc. And libraries. Yes you could probably manage more than 2 GB stack if you could malloc() such a huge continuous chunk < 1267722675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait < 1267722681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no you couldn't grow the stack that much < 1267722690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you need to multiply it by 4 for cell size < 1267722697 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If I'm running a chroot or whatever or I'm running cfunge in 32-bit mode I am completely problemless < 1267722701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or 8 for 64-bit funge cells) < 1267722753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but you see, 4*(2^31-1) is more than you can fit in 2^32 unless I'm completely mistaken < 1267722764 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said it wasn't < 1267722801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and due to that, it will actually not be possible to get a stack on a 32-bit funge with 32-bit size_t where the stack size doesn't fit in a single funge cell < 1267722802 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said that if you have 2 GB of stack on a 64-bit system you are in no problems at all < 1267722831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed. And if you have that then I suggest you get 64-bit funge cells, or accept that y can't give you proper stack size < 1267722859 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At that point it still can, but yes, I accept that; of course I do < 1267722864 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267722905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, 2 gibi-funge-cells I mean < 1267722957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means 8 gigabytes doesn't it? for 32-bit cells < 1267722975 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2G funge cells is not what I meant. < 1267722990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is what I meant all along I think < 1267723002 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267723012 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1267723015 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267723029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the "issue" is that you can perhaps grow a stack larger than what fits in a funge-cell < 1267723061 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you can, at which point it's expected (by me) that y will push a negative value < 1267723113 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1267723119 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integers tend to do 2's-complement signed overflow in Befunge, don't they? < 1267723353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm since n*(2^(8n-1)-1) > (2^(8n)) for any integer n > 2; we can't run into the issue if we use funge cells of the same size as the native pointer size. < 1267723366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since for befunge n must be at least 4 < 1267723986 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Isn't that what (signed) integers tend to do anywhere nowadays? < 1267723998 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I suppose it is < 1267724073 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augurithm < 1267724145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. count = 1; count++;count++;(according to GDB)$8 = 4196080 < 1267724155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... 3 = 4196080. < 1267724160 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hates C.
< 1267724173 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't hate C :P < 1267724290 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%x",4196080); < 1267724302 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4006f0 < 1267724308 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267724318 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks like a pointer value to me < 1267724319 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!c printf("%d",0x4196080); < 1267724320 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :68771968 < 1267724379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, being aligned like that and near 0x400000, it looks really rather pointery. < 1267724385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that 0x4006f0 is in libc this week. :/ < 1267724400 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267724409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x400000 and nearby regions tend to be in the executing program, actually. At least on Linux. < 1267724410 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn. < 1267724413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(prelinked system) < 1267724419 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just amazing. (http://www.quinapalus.com/wires11.html) < 1267724427 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :six hex digits, most of which are 0, always looks pointery to me < 1267724433 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it looks even more strongly like something else < 1267724441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hmm. count = 1; count++;count++;(according to GDB)$8 = 4196080 < 1267724441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... 3 = 4196080. < 1267724443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the heck? < 1267724448 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: is that the WireWorld CPU? < 1267724452 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, yes. < 1267724467 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION dumps the prelink table
< 1267724476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, is count a pointer? < 1267724482 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, is that not more than enough reason to jizz your pants upon eye contact? < 1267724485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's an int. < 1267724490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Initialised to 1. < 1267724492 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: it's pretty impressive < 1267724501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so 1+1+1 = 4196080 according to gdb? < 1267724502 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be even nicer if it could somehow be made TC, say by repeating a region < 1267724508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1267724530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, does it do something in between those assign and increment? < 1267724532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the program I mean < 1267724535 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: and the only reason I'm not getting very impressed immediately is that I've seen it before, and things are never quite as impressive the second time < 1267724537 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I find it simply incredible that one can construct entire computer architectures just from a simple set of rules for a cellular automaton. < 1267724539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Comparisons. < 1267724551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, no assigning elsewhere? < 1267724554 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: well, the rules for transistors are pretty simple < 1267724559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None. < 1267724560 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, that's true. < 1267724569 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The function is not even left. < 1267724569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, then I suggest you put a watch on that value < 1267724588 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I think one of the biggest challenges, once you have the idea in mind, is getting the pulses timed perfectly. < 1267724598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shall poke at it again in a bit.
< 1267724604 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even that isn't too hard with a debugger, you can even do it by trial and error < 1267724609 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION remembers his experiences messing with Rubicon
< 1267724621 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trick is to be able to test a small bit of it at a time < 1267724630 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, you don't even need a debugger. Just a cellular automata simulator. Lawl. :) < 1267724640 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that effectively is a debugger < 1267724644 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, you can see all the internals < 1267724645 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Troof. < 1267724656 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see a lot a trial and error happening. < 1267724672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: have you seen Rubicon? http://kevan.org/rubicon/ < 1267724679 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a computer game based on http://esolangs.org/wiki/RUBE < 1267724685 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's definitely my favorite configuration for any automaton...next is the turing machine in Life. < 1267724690 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, NICE. < 1267724717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well put a watch on it. And if this is actually C++ I shall kill you < 1267724794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, also I suggest valgrind, especially with that -tool=exp-ptrcheck < 1267724800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm just futzing with my BF interpreter again while drinking coffee to try and wake up. < 1267724818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I decided to make it not use getdelim (a GNU extension), and am now having issues. < 1267724857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes count=1; count++; count++ giving count=4196080 is definitely wrong < 1267724858 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, I'm still trying to trace the entire thing. < 1267724868 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267724870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it's C. It's very rare that I write code in C++. < 1267724876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but why would a bf interpreter need getdelim at all? < 1267724881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(too much agony to be had there) < 1267724900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Read the entire Brainfuck file into memory. < 1267724905 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, aren't there enough BF interpreters in the world? < 1267724932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Yes. Because they're easy to write, and they can solve boredom for a short period of time. < 1267724935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes and? < 1267724948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... And then parse the entire thing from memory. < 1267724971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I mean, you just read/parse char by char ignoring any non-instructions < 1267724981 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267724984 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote my first BF interpreter in x86 Asm...of course, it failed epicly. < 1267724994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a reason I'm changing it to *not* use getdelim. ;) < 1267724997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, [ ] I handle by making my parser recursive < 1267725011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I can't even think of how getdelim could be *useful at all* < 1267725013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for this < 1267725021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's slightly easier. < 1267725025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, than? < 1267725042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fgetc. < 1267725073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, mmap and for (i=0; i< routines. < 1267725185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as for parser being tail recursive: huh < 1267725187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they RLE) < 1267725187 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way I handled [ was pushing the offset in the source and incrementing my number-of-unbalanced-['s-variable, and popping and jumping if ] was hit and the balance flag was nonzero. :) < 1267725200 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was slightly messy. < 1267725222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you are basically emulating a stack there < 1267725238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just thought "why would I do that, I can just call myself recursively" < 1267725245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then let the C stack do the job < 1267725254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, my handling of loops is non-tailcall recursion. < 1267725254 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because C is nicer. < 1267725258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I put the instructions in a linked list < 1267725263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with down-links for loops < 1267725264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267725273 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As am I. < 1267725295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh? didn't you say it was tail call a second ago? < 1267725300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hand-optimised the "tail call modulo cons" into a normal tail-call. < 1267725316 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could always construct it in Asm and interface with the C stdlib...what platform are you writing it for? < 1267725316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It is. < 1267725331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Here's an example: bfparse(f, &(*accum)->tail); < 1267725363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static void bfparse(FILE *f, list *accum); // the declaration < 1267725423 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267725599 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267725641 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267725643 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267725646 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1267725708 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooko < 1267725729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what if we assumed an impossible object, then proved some properties of it, think there might be incredibly pretty theorems that just happen to require objects that can't be constructed? < 1267725796 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if some of the proofs that true = false => anything, in some logical systems, actually happened to be really interesting, but we just never looked because that would be ridiculously insane < 1267725809 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1267725825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have to ask these questions ppl < 1267726088 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually we don't. < 1267726134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah... I made mine a while loop and body recursive for [ < 1267726151 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: you're such a THEIST. < 1267726154 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eh, wouldn't be hard to do that. < 1267726167 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a matter of manually doing the tail call optimisation. < 1267726179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well sure < 1267726187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh this game rubeicon is going to take time :( < 1267726192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but what about tail call for [ ? < 1267726216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... What tail call? < 1267726219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rubicon? is that a flash game or ascii or what was it? < 1267726229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, iirc I solved all the included levels in about 15 minutes in total first time I played it < 1267726238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a tail call if you then do something afterwards. < 1267726240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, java < 1267726243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a *call*. < 1267726243 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay cool < 1267726255 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the fact you considered it trivial isn't cool < 1267726256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I meant the descending into the loop bodyu < 1267726257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :body* < 1267726262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sucks < 1267726276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that's not a tail call. < 1267726283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implementing Brainfuck in CPS would let you pre-allocate a single continuation (because you know the maximum nesting depth) but at that point it's not very different from using your own stack. < 1267726287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, -_- I know that < 1267726298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I just challenged you to make your parser *fully* tail recursive < 1267726302 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a lot faster than me < 1267726302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then "what about tail call for [" makes no bloody sense. < 1267726303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for loop bodies < 1267726306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267726307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ^ < 1267726324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a simple matter of manually doing CPS or a stack. < 1267726335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pointless, but simple. < 1267726342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1267726389 0 :angstrom!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267726751 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267726853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, found out why the ++ was broken btw? < 1267726863 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, not been looking at it. < 1267726867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a watch out to find exactly where in between it was modified < 1267726879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I strongly doubt that ++ itself adds more than 1 < 1267727681 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that game pissed me off < 1267727688 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't save your plcae < 1267727994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, can't you skip forward iirc? < 1267728001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it is trivial to solve it in one run < 1267728145 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys < 1267728146 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I’ve built a whole science out of studying the universe of possible programs–and have discovered that even very simple ones can generate all sorts of rich and complex behavior. < 1267728299 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like it could very well be a new kind of science. < 1267728305 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267728548 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alrighty, this is about to drive me up the wall! Someon help... < 1267728548 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"one of the discoveries of NKS is a phenomenon I call computational irreducibility–which says that many systems that appear complex will have behavior that can never be “reduced” in general to a simpler computation." :S < 1267728575 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems completely trivial result from complexity theory..? < 1267728660 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it impossible in Wireworld to make a transistor that halves the flow of a 4-micron current? < 1267728715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I have no idea what it means, given that he scare-quotes "reduce" but doesn't define it < 1267728725 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying and it seems that parity doesn't allow it. If I delay the transistor's pulse by one, it's too slow, and if I speed it by one, it's too fast. < 1267728731 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've tried everything. < 1267728775 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Verlassend < 1267728798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most "mathematical philosophy" is garbage because most "mathematical philosophers" have never seriously studied philosophy. < 1267728815 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or mathematics) < 1267728840 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most "philosophy" is garbage because most "philosophers" have never seriously studied philosophy. < 1267728847 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's just not enough of a gap to make it work. I think the gap might have to be an odd number for a transitstor to work. :| < 1267728852 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ##philosophy for the dumbest channel on freenode < 1267728853 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267728866 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*transistor < 1267728919 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical philosophy? I've never heard of it, but it sounds ridiculous. Mathematics is precise, but philosophy is abstract and arbitrary. < 1267728935 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: philosophy *of* mathematics < 1267728941 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: do numbers exist??? < 1267728947 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't make much sense either. < 1267728950 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's somewhat of a valid question < 1267728978 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is a number < 1267728979 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Books like "New Kind of Science" and "Goedel, Escher, Bach" qualify as "mathematical philosophy" to me. < 1267728980 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a valid question, but it's not profound enough to consider it philosophy. < 1267728995 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the same as philosophy of mathematics, quite. < 1267729001 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: what. < 1267729010 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the threshold for profoundness then? < 1267729023 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's up to the person asking. < 1267729038 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, what branch of science should address this question, if not philosophy of mathematics? < 1267729044 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, philosophy just means critical thinking it doesn't have to be profound but obvious profound stuff is some of the best/most famous philosophy < 1267729053 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's a question worth addressing, personally. < 1267729053 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously* < 1267729073 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: why, is the answer obvious? < 1267729081 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's obvious to me. < 1267729093 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the answer?? < 1267729107 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no definite answer, for sure. < 1267729110 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267729114 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... < 1267729126 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid philosophy doesn't care if there's a definite answer or not < 1267729134 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid the whole point is the journey < 1267729143 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on how you define "numbers". < 1267729153 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Computational irreducibility" seems to be "You can't predict the final state of a (complex) program without running it". Sounds like a layman-formatted version of undecidability to me. < 1267729154 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although some philosophers say that if there is a definite answer it's not philosophy any more, I don't agree with that) < 1267729174 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yeah I can't understand why it is even mentioned it is so weird.. < 1267729200 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: To sell more copies of Mathematica, of course. < 1267729208 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram is a marketing machine. < 1267729234 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, that's some crazy shit. What exactly isn't predictable but that's traceable? < 1267729268 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid, imagine some terribly complicated progarm that happend to always print 1 :P < 1267729299 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Well, take the Life automaton for example. If I give you a random starting configuration, can you tell me if there will eventually be a glider at some coordinates (x, y)? < 1267729436 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, are you asking if I -personally- can predict it, or if -anything- could predict it? < 1267729477 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((p nand q) nand r) nand (p nand ((p nand r) nand p)) = r < 1267729493 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently that's all you need to define nand ? :| < 1267729505 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Well, not you personally :) Say "any computer program". < 1267729511 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's oklopol < 1267729513 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can clue do that? < 1267729514 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here < 1267729521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god are you arelly there! < 1267729521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267729541 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bootstrapped NAND, I never thought of that. Nice. < 1267729546 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I do remember reading about complicated algorithms that could calculate a future generations without simulating each generation seperately, IIRC. < 1267729560 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, is that what you mean? < 1267729652 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, but without simulating it, I guess you could say you can't calculate when the next time state N will occur. < 1267729655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Assuming such algorithms exist -- yes, I'm referring to the fact that running those algorithms are tantamount to running the Life automaton. < 1267729688 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Features, schemeatures: added that thing into twungot where it replies whenever someone tweets with the string @fungot in it. < 1267729689 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: indeed, do any search for air france 296 < 1267729710 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: It all derives from the Halting Problem. < 1267729720 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep. < 1267729740 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what is the meaning of it all? < 1267729746 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament :( < 1267729785 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, so you can't calculate the next time state N will occur without actually running the program. < 1267729786 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1267729807 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or a more complicated version of the program) < 1267729809 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Not *in general*, no. In some special cases, yes. < 1267729862 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if I have a set of configurations where I've already run them and cached where the gliders end up, and you give me a configuration that happens to be one of those... as a trivial example. < 1267729863 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, yep. < 1267729892 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I'm thinking of Hashlife. < 1267729898 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, *facedesk* < 1267729925 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see. < 1267729926 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's todo list contains: implement/understand hashlife
< 1267729935 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something which I probably wont actually ever do... < 1267729944 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it looks like a kind of abstract interpretation of Life. < 1267729973 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, I don't understand it, and I doubt I ever will. < 1267729984 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thing is, there will always be some Life configurations where running them in Hashlife won't be any faster. < 1267729986 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't imagine it's very difficult < 1267730025 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION 's todo list contains "understand and implement generalized abstract interpretation" :)
< 1267730047 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament but what does it mean to understand something? < 1267730071 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I was under the impression Hashlife doesn't iterate generations at all, but it seems like it does...just, a lot faster. < 1267730174 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hashlife just works by noting that Life patterns are highly redundant. And so, it can memoise the iteration of patterns. < 1267730179 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it does iterate generations, at first, and as it does so, it "recognizes" the patterns in them. After it has recognized the patterns, it uses them to process the evolution. < 1267730185 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: but what does mean mean? < 1267730243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance -- gliders. It can, instead of computing each and every cell in the glider pattern, simply fetch the next needed portion of the pattern out of its hash table. < 1267730283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thing is, (and I'm basing this on the idea that Life is TC), it should be possible to find Life forms that don't get significantly simpler over time. Some kind of puffer train which grows utter crap behind it comes to mind. < 1267730292 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Will it reply to @fungotfoobar as well? < 1267730293 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: oznaczono jako spam lmmfao that had me laughing the whole films takes place in slow motion affect you can hear the engiens running, it would be 2 flight crew, and not what you'd expect! < 1267730324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(z) = z < 1267730324 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This map is called the identity map, and is extremely boring. < 1267730335 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatusedtobefungotboring < 1267730336 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i personally liked the mr. potato head one.... really awesome, and not a single reply before posting the same 24-second video that was a " man" a " pussy" a high vocabulary level. < 1267730360 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey :D I wonder what the life equivalent of busy beaver is < 1267730364 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Life Man. < 1267730389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: A busy beaver. < 1267730397 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No, because those don't end up on the "mentions" Twitter API listings. < 1267730398 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq what the fuck < 1267730399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life describes a TC system. < 1267730402 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you trolling < 1267730420 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, other Life. < 1267730421 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ah, you're using a clever API. < 1267730435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like that time when I was wondering how to prove something was undecidible and you said "halting problem" < 1267730446 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's suck a fucking awful answer I can't tell if you are trolling or not < 1267730447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Since they've bothered to provide a nice, RESTful JSON-driven API, I might as well use it. < 1267730463 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I suppose you might. :-) < 1267730515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Life is equivalent to a Turing-machine. Thus, the busy beaver analogue is merely an implementation of a busy beaver machine in Life. < 1267730521 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shut up < 1267730549 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: f(z) = z < 1267730550 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This map is called the identity map, and is extremely boring. < 1267730567 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is life? < 1267730571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: When you ask a boring question, you get a boring answer. < 1267730580 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Twungot (undocumented, unpretty) code is in fungot's git repository anyhow. < 1267730580 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what if she is so funny... < 1267730587 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: isn't the identity map pretty interesting? < 1267730591 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, what's the type signature? < 1267730598 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament this is from terry tao < 1267730605 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well he can suck it < 1267730622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: The B3/S23 2 dimensional cellular automaton. Known to be Turing-complete. < 1267730643 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: great answers to great questions < 1267730663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Of course, if you don't grok that, that doesn't help you. But, then, you're here, so. ;) < 1267730680 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what's the MEANING of life? < 1267730694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beats me. < 1267730700 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :z = f(z) = f(f(z)) = f(f(f(z))) = (the remainder of this sequence has been hashlifed into constant space) < 1267730723 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the other question is, where is Hashlife for Turing Machines? < 1267730760 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal turing machines don't have so much redundancy < 1267730768 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1267730808 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Life has all that symmetry. It's pretty bloated that way. < 1267730843 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So back to my original question, is it impossible (due to parity) to make a transistor that halves a 4-micron current in WireWorld? < 1267730856 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Life needs some spontaneous symmetry breaking. < 1267730864 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been trying and I get it either on generation too fast or one too slow. < 1267730882 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dev_squid: Been a lot time since I've WW'ed. From faint echoes of firings of neurons, I would guess, yes, it's impossible. < 1267730897 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complete guess. < 1267730907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seem to remember having similar frustrations. < 1267730912 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be completely wrong. < 1267730914 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I think the current has to be of n-micron where n is odd. >:( < 1267730970 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, or it could just be that it's too small of a gap, much like in how 4-micron currents can't go through the smaller logic gates. < 1267730982 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*properly < 1267731014 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try it with 5-micron. :) < 1267731056 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the turing machine example that comes with Golly is just one way to make a turing machine < 1267731069 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and turing machines araen't the only way to impleement N -> N functions in Life < 1267731098 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, yerp. < 1267731107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a limit on the size that a life pattern can grow, it takes n steps (minimum) to reach n pixels away < 1267731123 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finding a configuartion that fills space as fast as possible is trivial < 1267731151 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that configuration is not a busy beaver < 1267731160 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only computes O(n^2) < 1267731228 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why it's an interesting question and 'shut-up' answers like "just implement it in the turing machine" are not good < 1267731323 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so you want the non-trivial busy beaver configuration for Life. < 1267731337 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should say as much. Otherwise you get simple answers. < 1267731350 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq it's not my homework < 1267731362 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just mentioned this because it's interesting < 1267731363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1267731378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I even claim that? < 1267731390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I simply gave you a trivial answer to a trivial question. < 1267731444 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267731654 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267731960 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dumb question incoming. < 1267731971 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANDNOT=NAND? < 1267732022 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All Wireworld references I've seen call them ANDNOT gates...why not just NAND? < 1267732105 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An AND-NOT gate calculates the function ‘A AND NOT B’." -- at least that sort of function is not NAND. < 1267732106 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-10-22.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267732141 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p and not q != not (p and q) < 1267732142 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ANDNOT is not NAND? < 1267732152 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1267732238 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, you could implement Hashlife for Langton's Ant. < 1267732243 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Hashant. < 1267732251 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also noticed that the XOR gates they've described don't have a clock structure to output a 1 when there is not input (i.e. 0 xor 0)...so are they not -true- XOR gates? < 1267732324 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XOR doesn't need a clock, as long as when both inputs are 0 the output is 1, it should be no problem. < 1267732360 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the gate isn't 'active', so if there is no input, there is not output. < 1267732383 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, then yes,it is some pseudo-XOR, I'd say. < 1267732388 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1267732421 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could construct a 'real' XOR gate with an AND and then NOT structure. < 1267732478 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh.. isn't 0 XOR 0 supposed to be 0, anyway? XOR is true for (1, 0) or (0, 1); false for (0, 0) or (1, 1). < 1267732493 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no. 0 xor 0 is 1. < 1267732506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a very strange sort of exclusive-OR. < 1267732508 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1267732518 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facedesk* < 1267732524 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, confusion between XOR and EQU I think. < 1267732527 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I totally don't understand any boolean domain except {0,1} < 1267732531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EQU being the inverse of XOR < 1267732543 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yeah I confused it. < 1267732560 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, *facedesk*. Pardon my faggotry. < 1267732884 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it turns out, in my experimental term-rewriting language, the terms *being rewritten* may contain variables. This was an accident, and strikes me as somewhat... unwholesome. However, until I understand the implications, I'm hesitant to take it out. < 1267732930 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1267732955 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let (a @x) -> (b @x) in (a 5) ==> (b 5) <-- that's normal (@x denotes a variable.) < 1267733006 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let (a 5) -> (b @x) in (@x 5) ==> (b a) <-- that's nuts. < 1267733836 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267733971 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-162-149-46.range86-162.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267734187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : horrible music interrupted by "you now have place number 5 in the queue" < 1267734199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what were you doing in the queue to HELL anyway < 1267734683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise talks too much. < 1267734710 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan quotes too much < 1267734716 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that discussion you and coppro had in the logs, you shouldn't be complaining ;D < 1267734800 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol doth protest too much. < 1267734802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: don't worry, that was the last one for now < 1267734894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was just hoping you'd quote me and say something witty! < 1267734915 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan quotes too much <-- no i don't! < 1267734921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that? < 1267734954 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, thank you < 1267735075 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1267735081 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what discussion did they have? < 1267735150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about whether a rotating coordinate frame is as valid as a non-rotating one. it was my fault for bringing it up, actually. < 1267735238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you mention coordinate frames, what can you expect except a flamewar < 1267735256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't a framewar be more likely? < 1267735278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must've been a typo < 1267735287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how typical < 1267735821 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, they found a side-channel attack against RSA < 1267735834 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you can brownout a system trying to do the calculations and figure out the private keys that way < 1267735850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's brownout? < 1267735919 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a system doesn't have enough voltage on the input to operate correctly, but it doesn't have low enough voltage that it turns off altogether < 1267735940 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some systems have explicit brownout detection circuitry; the rest just malfunction in that situation < 1267735954 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1267736005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that reminds me of that jvm attack which depends on random faults in memory < 1267736035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/faults/errors/ < 1267736069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both seem to depend on a computer's hardware not doing what it should < 1267736072 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a proof a while bag that you could remotely attack (I'm not sure which sort of attack) an RSA system that ran on a processor that did one multiplication incorrectly, FDIV-bug style < 1267736096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267736144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although brownout sounds like you need physical access < 1267736187 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or good timing < 1267736194 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hear thunder in the distance) < 1267736203 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if you control the power plant first < 1267736251 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: on a system with software-controlled overclocking, you can do it by overclocking the processor past its possible range < 1267736264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1267736266 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that either browns out the system or causes it to melt < 1267736283 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on whether the power supply or the heatsinking fails first < 1267736538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267736576 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267736620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why yes, FUSE filesystem, I would absolutely love for you to read the entire contents of that file into memory. < 1267736639 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I of course have enough memory for 12 gigabyte files in RAM. < 1267736659 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've somehow always felt that side-channel attacks are somehow unfair to poor widdle cryptographers. :/ < 1267736672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 12GB of RAM isn't entirely implausible nowadays < 1267736717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Yes, but reading the entire contents of a 12GB file into memory is pretty dumb. < 1267736726 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on what you're doing < 1267736741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Filesystem. < 1267736754 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267736798 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUSE filesystems sometimes are a bit dumb; see, when you put it in userspace, you make it a lot easier to just write a messy filesystem, without having arcane skills; and then people do. < 1267736824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I have discovered. < 1267736844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One would hope that at least the widely used ones (sshfs?) would be clever enough not to be stupid, though. < 1267736870 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was playing with fusecompress. Which apparently sucks for large files. < 1267736895 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears to read an entire file into memory when you modify it. < 1267736909 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267736953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267736968 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, compression always makes random-access harder. < 1267737030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but there are fairly easy ways to make it not horrifying. < 1267737032 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-23-95.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267737048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you're not going to be clever: split the file into blocks. Compress the blocks seperately. < 1267737062 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267737071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inefficient, but it's at least not going to swap you to death when you try to modify a file. < 1267737109 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267737109 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1267737117 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love my magic objects and their magic < 1267737181 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It should do that already, I think. At least the fusecompress man page options list has: "Block size influences compression ratio. Bigger block size allows better compression ratio, but random access to data will be slower and memory requirements will be bigger." They must have just screwed it up somehow. < 1267737193 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think "magic" in this context might even be definable: putting together two functionalities which should be separate. < 1267737203 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Default size is 100 kB.) < 1267737204 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, generating a form, and seeing if a form needs to be generated. < 1267737261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ... Yeah, probably just screwed it up. < 1267737276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not going to look and see how to get it right. < 1267737303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm happy to report that at least dd'ing a 10-byte block at the middle of a three-gigabyte file over sshfs won't cause it to transfer three gigabytes over the network. < 1267737342 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because sshfs is somewhat intelligent. < 1267737499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lets you read data sanely so you won't suspect its plan to take over the world < 1267737861 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, YouTube comments are driving me mad < 1267737866 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue isn't the content, but chronological order < 1267737880 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the /newest/ comments are at the top, except that older comments appear to be written as replies to newer ones < 1267737910 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which appears to require either a whole load of the IRP-style "hello" "please say 'hello' immediately before this comment", or a deceptive sorting algorithm < 1267737953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: time travelers from a future idiocracy? < 1267737955 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: I have never frickin understood them either. < 1267737969 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's deceptive. Not sure how it works. < 1267737972 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I like the concept < 1267737989 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that the newest is at the top, but even so, there is always someone who is replying to something I can't see, for whatever reason. < 1267738119 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further theory: people in Youtube, whenever they see someone's replied to their question, repeat the question < 1267738121 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for context < 1267740652 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267741029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Youtube comment system is probably designed to allow for stupid people. < 1267741061 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267741125 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i love augur < 1267741135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAY GAIS < 1267741185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHEY < 1267741248 0 :dev_squid!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267741858 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267741862 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1267741994 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267742497 0 :dev_squid!~dev_squid@cpe-075-182-022-108.sc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267742802 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1267742930 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267743028 0 :alise!~95fed94f@gateway/web/freenode/x-zauxkjcfgdpgvsud JOIN :#esoteric < 1267743045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am looking at Windows 7 Home Premium. < 1267743047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Challenge: Explain this. < 1267743159 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't your computer < 1267743171 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that you're using a webclient extends that impression < 1267743199 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're gay. < 1267743207 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1267743234 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gays see Windows 7 in their mind. < 1267743240 0 :alise_!~95fee04d@gateway/web/freenode/x-kzvtpokxaoinldhf JOIN :#esoteric < 1267743242 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoopsie, < 1267743244 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise_ < 1267743245 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*. < 1267743255 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that you're using a computer other than your own < 1267743287 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that it's around 11pm where you live, you can't be at a cybercafe or anything like that < 1267743295 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're probably at a friend's or relative's house < 1267743318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267743326 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gay lover's < 1267743371 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Incorrect. < 1267743384 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, relative's house yes, other person's computer no. < 1267743388 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267743398 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new computer, and you haven't installed an OS on it? < 1267743416 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other possibility's that your computer was dual-boot all along, and you're using the other side for some reason < 1267743432 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can understand you using win7 deliberately, but home premium would seem unlikely, and this would seem a weird time to experiment < 1267743507 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Home Premium is pretty much the best Windows 7 version, Ultimate just has a few more stuffs < 1267743510 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New computer, yes, bingo. < 1267743541 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rationale: Temporary residence as part of homelessness + going around to get things sorted + etc = lugging around an iMac is not ideal. < 1267743558 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a laptop, then, probably a netbook < 1267743577 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not quite a netbook, they all had really ridiculously tiny 9" screens < 1267743584 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, that's small < 1267743591 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this netbook is about A4, which is still quite small < 1267743591 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the 11" laptops cost similar prices to the 13" ones < 1267743595 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's just a small laptop < 1267743609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it gets 8 hours battery life, so... that would be nice, I guess, though I doubt it's quite that much. < 1267743622 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine's advertised as 8, it's around 5 in practice < 1267743629 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what model is it? < 1267743635 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toshiba Satellite Tsomething. < 1267743649 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, you may have exactly the same as mine, which is also a toshiba satellite < 1267743662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you probably have the 11" model. < 1267743665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine's its 13.3" big brother < 1267743672 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1267743692 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are you meant to type without thumbing the trackpad? < 1267743696 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am rather unexperienced with laptops... < 1267743701 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't manage that either < 1267743709 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither can I. < 1267743710 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just got really experienced at mitigating thumbpad errors < 1267743711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's really annoying. < 1267743728 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can turn off tap-to-click on the thumbpad if you really care, that prevents thumbing it by mistake doing much < 1267743751 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just disable the pad entirely < 1267743752 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but the button isn't the best, I think you'll agree. < 1267743755 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit hard to reach too. < 1267743758 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1267743764 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mouse is really unreliable atm < 1267743766 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: No nipple mouse, and using Windows without a mouse is suicidal. < 1267743773 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm using hold-primary-click-for-secondary-click < 1267743786 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I can do pretty much anything with touchpad gestures < 1267743836 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently there's an eco mode which sacrifices performance for battery, which would be totally superfluous if they weren't presumably lying about the 8-hour life in the battery indicator. < 1267743852 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo, it's gone down to 4 hours already :-D < 1267743892 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does it randomly decide to spin the fan up for no reason? < 1267743893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows. < 1267743900 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Why does it come with so much junk installed? Who knows.) < 1267743900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well what were you doing in the queue to HELL anyway <-- the train went to norway by mistake ;P < 1267743925 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh, it spins up the fan randomly on Windows too? < 1267743944 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably does it more often there than here, though < 1267743947 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267743951 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a really quiet fan though < 1267743956 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i don't really care at all < 1267743957 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has multiple settings < 1267743963 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sometimes spins up to quiet for several minutes < 1267743964 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it's kind of eerie how quiet it has been < 1267743970 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes to REALLY LOUD for about ten seconds < 1267743982 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I've christened this machine Dinky < 1267743987 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1267743990 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine's called desert < 1267743995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's not actually all that dinky < 1267744001 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: because in some ephemeral way it is small and dinky. < 1267744008 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compared to an iMac, I suppose. :P < 1267744058 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what is it with airline food^W^W mobile broadband software? < 1267744065 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all incorrigibly awful < 1267744084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why yes, FUSE filesystem, I would absolutely love for you to read the entire contents of that file into memory. < 1267744084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I of course have enough memory for 12 gigabyte files in RAM. < 1267744086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wonderful < 1267744087 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, one thing that's annoying is things like the wireless killswitch seem to only work on Windows her < 1267744088 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*here < 1267744110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what fuse file system was it? < 1267744134 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 gigabytes of RAM in a machine with this CPU is hilariously pointless < 1267744154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah compression < 1267744156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.30GHz single core, fuck yeah < 1267744158 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: why'd you get a new computer thats not a mac? < 1267744162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I would recommend using squashfs for compressing filesystem ;P < 1267744176 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: this one has 3GB < 1267744181 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is likewise single-core < 1267744184 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: because buying a mac laptop for use tomorrow without financial planning is a stupid idea < 1267744190 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are, you might note, rather expensive < 1267744194 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Welcome to laptop-land. You'll learn to love to hate to type. < 1267744196 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, having that much memory compared to the CPU means it's unlikely to start swapping without lots of notice < 1267744207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did you buy a laptop for use tomorrow? < 1267744208 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, I have no real qualms with UBuntu. < 1267744221 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: because my life is fucked up right now and I can't lug about an iMac < 1267744231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats goin on? < 1267744239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: hmm... does yours have more than 1.30GHz of juice? < 1267744252 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if you have a 32-bit OS it's feasible that you have >3 gigs and just don't know it < 1267744255 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.3 exactly < 1267744258 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Well, you know the situation with the unit, right? < 1267744262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267744263 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have a 32-bit OS, but it was advertised with 3GB < 1267744270 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do, I told you. < 1267744284 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically a mental health institution has me there the entire week apart from the -ends. < 1267744289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, you mean the "zomg the boy is crazy" thing < 1267744291 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from this week? < 1267744299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not right now, that's not the issue, the issue is that for various complicated reasons I don't have any permanent residence right now < 1267744301 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or have you been going this week anyway, somehow? < 1267744316 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've sent my clone there < 1267744316 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1267744332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i get an alise_ clone? :X < 1267744332 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: this is the best time ever for you to be a pair of identical twins < 1267744351 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That's possibly the most disturbing thing you've ever said :P < 1267744358 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The keys are... so flat. < 1267744360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i try <3 < 1267744362 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: So where the hell are you? Please say "A truck stop outside El Paso". It's the only correct answer. < 1267744365 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had a scissor-switch keyboard before but jeez. < 1267744375 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A truck stop outside El Paso. (Uncle's house) < 1267744381 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right on. < 1267744397 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: please get your life sorted out before you run out of relatives < 1267744413 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: XD < 1267744419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, homelessness? < 1267744420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1267744432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't gather it was quite that bad < 1267744439 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like we didn't pay the rent or anything :P And it's not like we're sleeping on the streets < 1267744442 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he isn't homeless, just being shuffled from relative to relative < 1267744460 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that going back to my (ex-)stepfather's house is not really an option. < 1267744467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you can turn off tap-to-click on the thumbpad if you really care, that prevents thumbing it by mistake doing much <-- thumbpad? Is that different from a normal touchpad? < 1267744471 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Only left my father's house because he demanded, increasingly angrily, that I attend the unit < 1267744484 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, it's just a thumbpad, I misnamed it < 1267744488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually he called social services on us because for a few hours he didn't know where we'd gone to... < 1267744493 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's pretty fucking crazy. < 1267744498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ? < 1267744508 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calling social services due to not knowing where your son is seems plausible < 1267744523 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*touchpad < 1267744534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, ah < 1267744543 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: no, it was /after/ he found out < 1267744550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I've had a scissor-switch keyboard before but jeez. <-- they vary widely in quality in my experience < 1267744590 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: are you at least going to school, somehow? my guess is that that's completely implausible given the situation < 1267744612 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm worried that you'll get in trouble on the technicality that you're within the compulsory education age range, yet not going to school < 1267744632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, your parents are separated? < 1267744636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what is going on < 1267744642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you fled from home? < 1267744648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is utterly confused now
< 1267744655 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1267744659 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think ive just seen < 1267744660 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is by far < 1267744662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My parents have been separated since I was three. < 1267744666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267744667 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am with my mother. < 1267744668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the weirdest and wonderfullest musical instrument ever < 1267744692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, ? < 1267744697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: an audience. < 1267744700 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ted.com/talks/bobby_mcferrin_hacks_your_brain_with_music.html < 1267744706 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bobby mcferrin plays a fucking audience. < 1267744740 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing has a nice DPI. < 1267744759 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't even see /Windows's/ subpixel fringes. < 1267744774 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has .. somewhat mixed emotions about Ruby
< 1267744780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: why < 1267744782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what kind < 1267744783 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can see the subpixel fringes here if I zoom in a lot < 1267744802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He has a part of him that thinks it's good, and it hasn't been forcibly amputated yet < 1267744802 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll Get Around To It(TM) < 1267744808 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the one hand, it's the language I'm learning right now, therefore it's awesome. On the other hand, 20 ways to do the same thing gets on my nerves rapidly < 1267744826 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: learn Perl, it only has 19 < 1267744826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: oh get over it :P < 1267744829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, wow < 1267744830 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the fan logic for this machine is "Fan for a minute or two. Sleep a few minutes. Repeat." < 1267744840 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: RIGHT? < 1267744848 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: plus a random-number generator < 1267744849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, still haven't figured out how to mechanically translate [something for i in stuff for j in otherstuff] < 1267744856 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor (something for i in stuff) < 1267744859 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does fan louder while under load, though, if not more often < 1267744862 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: what? < 1267744869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, ? < 1267744873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, about that video < 1267744874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1267744876 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm used to Python's list comprehensions < 1267744881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i know. its amaing. < 1267744888 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's somewhat easy to translate simple ones to Ruby < 1267744890 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ah, list comprehensions dont exist in ruby, unfortunately. < 1267744892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, also amazing < 1267744905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to do maps instead. < 1267744915 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of complicated map are you trying to do? < 1267744934 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[x*x for x in [1,2,3] if x > 1] becomes [1,2,3].select{ |x| x > 1}.map{|x| x*x} < 1267744950 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1267744966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the equivalent for multiuple "for x in y"s? < 1267744977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example? < 1267744981 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is there something similar I can do with generators? < 1267744995 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[x*y for x in range(10) for y in range(10)] < 1267744997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? python has list comprehensions? < 1267745000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't remember that < 1267745010 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. i see. no i dont think such a thing is easy to do in ruby < 1267745036 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: That was pretty cool at the end. < 1267745037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, should be straightforward in erlang btw < 1267745043 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: :) < 1267745046 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Up 'til then it was more "uhh, OK?" < 1267745054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267745055 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.upto(10) {|x| 0.upto(10) {|y| x*y}} < 1267745055 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR something < 1267745055 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Or < 1267745056 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he got people going < 1267745059 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then bam < 1267745065 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: no, that wouldnt do it < 1267745086 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, right < 1267745102 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0..10).to_a.map { |x| (0..10).to_a.map { |y| x*y } }.flatten < 1267745104 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(0..10).map {|x| (0..10).map {|y| x*y}} < 1267745119 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ranges dont have a map method ;) < 1267745154 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking lame < 1267745195 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2k7aoIGqTI Anyone who hasn't seen this needs to watch it on loop until their eyes bleed. < 1267745195 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can presumably make your own, and it will be an automatic part of all ranges < 1267745213 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: what is it? with a description like that, I don't want to click on it < 1267745226 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: It's The Cosmic Adventures of Doctor Fabulous < 1267745235 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1267745271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, [X*Y||X<-lists:seq(0,10),Y<-lists:seq(0,10)]. (erlang) < 1267745340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all possible combinations < 1267745348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I assume that is what the python one does) < 1267745401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/dVZH is the generated list < 1267745430 0 :alise!~95fee232@gateway/web/freenode/x-enfkamjmtjgsjjns JOIN :#esoteric < 1267745432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our Content Lock system protects under 18s from accessing inappropriate content, including unmoderated user-generated content and social networking sites. To remove Content Lock, click on the link below, call 1818 from your mobile or visit your nearest T-Mobile Store. < 1267745433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FFS < 1267745438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just give me youtube < 1267745452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267745480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, does that do the same as the python one? < 1267745485 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :social networking = inappropriate content? < 1267745487 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, yes or no < 1267745491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf, very! < 1267745495 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unmoderated user-generated, is that to give an excuse to block WIkipedia? < 1267745504 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but in a certain order < 1267745514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, hm? < 1267745517 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you're tethering, could you bounce an ssh tunnel off somewhere? < 1267745523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1267745553 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[(x, y) for x in (1,2,3) for y in range(1,2,3)] starts [(1,1), (1,2), (1,3), (2,1)... < 1267745554 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1267745560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: YOUTUBE IS VIOLENCE < 1267745561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND SEX < 1267745563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND WARFARE < 1267745567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AND ROCK AND ROLL MUSIC < 1267745574 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, not rock and roll! < 1267745580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, that python expression gives me a list that goes to 81 here .... < 1267745581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1267745585 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, it's probably a better idea to just go round the filter < 1267745589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So now it wants me to supply a credit card number so it can verify that I'm an under-18 using someone else's credit card number. < 1267745602 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what they /probably/ want to do is avoid people using loads of bandwidth < 1267745613 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You are number 5 in queue. Estimated wait time is 2 minute(s)s" < 1267745618 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it's an unlimited-connection sort of thing < 1267745618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The old vodafone 3g stick did the same thing < 1267745624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was damn annoying < 1267745631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: No, pay-as-you-go, but topped up a lot I think < 1267745633 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and implies deep packet inspection, doesn't it? < 1267745634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 30 days < 1267745643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Pay for one day get 30 days free; pretty sweet deal imo.) < 1267745646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scarf: Probably. < 1267745648 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or they couldn't see where you were sending the query < 1267745653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe DNS-based? < 1267745653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, http://sprunge.us/hZQA <-- that makes no sense < 1267745665 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor this isn't very good < 1267745666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, unless range(10) actually means 0..9 < 1267745675 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: YOU FAIL < 1267745677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be sillier than I remembered < 1267745679 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it does < 1267745692 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1267745709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, well then change the erlang expression to [X*Y||X<-lists:seq(0,9),Y<-lists:seq(0,9)] < 1267745711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1267745724 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night AnMaster < 1267745839 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's possible to apply for and receive a credit card entirely over the Internet. < 1267745905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, this laptop used to be a display item. < 1267745905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were only two laptops of this model and they were both displays... < 1267746310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267746517 0 :scarf!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267746532 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(((( I watched the whole thing < 1267746542 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's meant to be a satire? < 1267746600 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1267746621 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of various nonsense, and also with a heavy smattering of unrelated nonsense. < 1267746666 0 :alise!~95fee042@gateway/web/freenode/x-sroltliurrkfdhjz JOIN :#esoteric < 1267746791 0 :cbrowne!~chris@cl-724.lon-02.gb.sixxs.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267746882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing measures the battery life in Toshiba time. < 1267746887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It goes quickly, like technology. < 1267746999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, scarf disappeared < 1267747052 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gregor said i fail :( < 1267747057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I cant help who I am! < 1267747082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is rocket launch < 1267747082 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://playlist.yahoo.com/makeplaylist.dll?id=1368162 < 1267747093 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes into "orbit" in "space" < 1267747107 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least that's what they tell us..)