< 1267920651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267920766 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267921548 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267922255 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o hai < 1267922287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yet iff symbolically is merely <-> < 1267922295 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a single-lined double arrow < 1267922389 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1267922391 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAFFEINE! :D < 1267922688 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who was it that suggested lo carb monster < 1267922906 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, noone here < 1267923033 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267923924 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267924012 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: (ノ゚ο゚)ノミ★゜・。。・゜゜・。。・゜☆゜・。。・゜゜・。。・゜ < 1267924027 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267924031 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha < 1267924233 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf is that < 1267924254 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me, I can't see it < 1267924262 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: なぜ絵文字を使いますか。 < 1267924281 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shiiiiiiit < 1267924302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :何? < 1267924322 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what you're saying. < 1267924359 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Japanese-script-using failure. < 1267924387 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fortunately I don't know Japanese. < 1267924643 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why are you using < 1267924649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JIS art? < 1267924650 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267924663 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267925120 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because i speak japanese < 1267925132 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: 本当に? < 1267925138 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1267925207 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :でも、「絵文字」を知らない。 < 1267925266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. ... Emoji is wrong word. JIS art. < 1267925465 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267926626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, alise isn't here? < 1267927502 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, keywords do exist in Common Lisp < 1267927642 0 :benuphoenix!~matt@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267927671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not ATM. < 1267927830 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267927988 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267928573 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know how to make hypervisor mode in ARM-based computer? < 1267930294 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267931256 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267931466 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267932083 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267932912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267937842 0 :Khazar!~Surrador@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267938946 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodnight! < 1267938948 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267939065 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267939065 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267939181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Art thou awake? < 1267939227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Khazar: 馬鹿ね。 < 1267939644 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1267941199 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267941596 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... wow. < 1267941601 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good ol' fashioned spam I guess. < 1267941612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not all that "good ol' fashioned". < 1267941621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it were that, Khazar would be giving the GNAA spiel. < 1267941630 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rarely has "good ol' fashioned" meant "good" :P < 1267941704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heheh. < 1267941737 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious, I would expect a spambot to join various channels, but Khazar is only on #esoteric. < 1267941755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curious. < 1267941775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably more of a *troll* than a spambot, then. < 1267941901 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1267941967 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, a troll would be responsive, I assume. < 1267941970 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a moron. < 1267942141 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267942155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1267942222 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Can has kickban on Khazar plz kthx < 1267942424 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively, can have access +o on Gregor? :P < 1267942515 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't spam < 1267942522 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where did I mention viagra or porn? < 1267942554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You opted form "chimpout" instead. < 1267942557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. For. < 1267942566 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wow, it is a "human". < 1267942567 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shocking. < 1267942589 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If nothing else, your racist idiocy has no relevance to this channel and is unsolicited, making it spam. < 1267942600 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have discovered that on Freenode, it is wiser to be more lowkey < 1267942602 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Advertising a site that is offensive to many and sought out by few is generally considered spam. < 1267942605 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precluding the usage of bots < 1267942608 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is more profitable < 1267942617 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are interested in such a job in irc marketing < 1267942626 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be because people on Freenode are, in general, more intelligent than turnips. < 1267942630 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :email recursoshumanos@telvista.com.mx < 1267942640 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas the target audience for your site is in the 0.25-to-0.75 turnips intelligence range. < 1267942654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People on Freenode are more likely to be offended by marketing in general, you know. < 1267942660 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would place them just a tad below intelligent design advocates, and roughly on par with flat-Earth-theorists. < 1267942693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(... Particularly here. Have you *seen* the crazy shit we write?) < 1267942726 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i once knew a nigger named esoteric < 1267942734 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's too bad that "recursos" means "resources" instead of "recursive", "recursive humans" == an awesome concept :P < 1267942742 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he had a sister named shaquanda < 1267942756 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New idea: let's all /ignore < 1267942763 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3, 2, 1, go < 1267942766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Khazar: Would you please be so kind as to inform us of the reasons for your opinion? < 1267942784 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh dear :P < 1267942790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am certain that they are detailed, profound, and may well be enlightening as to certain aspects of the human condition. < 1267942823 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Average Human IQ 100 Average Nigger IQ 80 Of course there are negroes that have normal IQs, but you are much more likely to run into a feral ape < 1267942828 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than a magic negro < 1267942842 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many who don't see this have been isolated from the bulk of the nigger population < 1267942849 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just know a few magic ones in the workplace < 1267942855 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with such "compelling" evidence as that, I'm sure convinced haw haw X-D < 1267942876 0 :Khazar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Haiti=Mierda < 1267942881 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daaaamn :P < 1267942888 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic ones are OK I guess. < 1267942889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas. < 1267942893 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know a few magic ones. < 1267942916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we need to sprinkle some pixy dust on everyone. < 1267942922 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus making magical negroes. < 1267942929 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds about right to me. < 1267942939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*Everyone* to allow for the possibility of racial mixes, of course.) < 1267942946 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturalismo. < 1267942958 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, let us discuss recursive humans. < 1267942973 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think something along the lines of Russian nesting dolls. < 1267942977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea intrigues me, and I would like to subscribe to relevant newsletters. < 1267942983 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267943040 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1267944204 0 :ElMexicano!~ElMexican@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267944206 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267944206 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267944241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ElMexicano: It remains unintelligent here. < 1267944267 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, the straight-up reappearing and pasting the same thing is bizarre :P < 1267944274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267944321 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ElMexicano: なぜ、おメキシコ人、それと思うかな。 < 1267944362 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Google translates that as "Why Mexicans us, I think it is." :P < 1267944372 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the most understandable translation I've ever seen. < 1267944383 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: That's because Japanese is a royal pain to translate. < 1267944390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Highly* context-dependent. < 1267944404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is "Why, oh Mexican, do you think that?" < 1267944437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should've done it in keigo so I could translate it was "Wherefore doth thou think that, most honerable Mexican?" < 1267944468 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be bots < 1267944501 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ElMexicano- VERSION xchat 2.8.6 Ubuntu < 1267944502 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I can't remember the appropriate verb. < 1267944517 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ElMexicano, are you, in fact, a human? Prove it. < 1267944741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently not. < 1267944753 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267944753 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267944873 0 :ElMexicano!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Haiti=Mierda < 1267944877 0 :Chazz!~Chazz@unaffiliated/dabomb69 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267944897 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey Chazz < 1267944907 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267944911 0 :Chazz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hai < 1267944978 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION points to the channel logs < 1267945065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he seems to be using a single hostname < 1267945126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1267945815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who wants to hear some obnoxious bullshit from contemporary formal semanticists? :D < 1267946158 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALWAYS < 1267946179 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: OK < 1267946207 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so apparently these nutballs try to account for the meaning of modal adjectives like, say, "always" < 1267946213 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the following _syntactic_ structures < 1267946260 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Transforming the meaning of "always" into something purely syntactic...? < 1267946270 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[λs [s [ssh [always [λr [r [John complained]]]]]]] < 1267946287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they just try to invent a shit ton of extra syntax so that the syntax maps neatly into logic < 1267946353 0 :Linuxiano!~JigBoot@201.160.235.225.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267946365 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267946365 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267946403 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1267946406 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament! < 1267946450 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Just to be clear, that's the sentence "John always complained", yes? < 1267946452 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something along those lines. < 1267946456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1267946479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best argued syntax for that is at most [always [John complained]] < 1267946504 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but typical semanticists add in a whole bunch of other shit because otherwise they cant explain anything < 1267946524 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the way of formal semantics :P < 1267946536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its not < 1267946542 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some formal semanticists that dont do that < 1267946551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I knew the context I could maybe understand what function each additional layer serves, but I'm too tired and need to sleep, so I'll do that instead :P < 1267946559 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just annoying that they stick the shit into the syntax not the semantics < 1267946564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well ok < 1267946569 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its basically < 1267946598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s, ssh, and r are situation variables < 1267946607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :john is just some person value lets say < 1267946626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complained is a function of type Ind -> Sit -> Bool < 1267946642 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :always is of type (Sit -> Bool) -> Sit -> Sit -> Bool < 1267946692 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if this were in haskellish < 1267946744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Sticking semantics into syntax = failure. < 1267946750 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\s -> always (\r -> (complained John r)) ssh s < 1267946769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: its so true. < 1267946791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, its one thing if you map from one to the other relatively transparently or something < 1267946806 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but to use your syntax as a place to encode your logical objects < 1267946815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole theory just blows up and becomes incredibly complex < 1267947097 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It is time to put those Haitian jigaboos in their place! No matter how many times the civilized world donates money, opens schools, rebuilds their nation, and holds their little monkey paws, the damn niggers can never get it right. They never will! The same goes for New Orleans! Cancun in Mexico suffered few fatalities after their major hurricane, and the rebuilding is already completed. Wha < 1267947101 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t have the niggers in New Orleans done? If you are sick of this, join Chimpout Forum! http://www.chimpout.com/forum We welcome all races except for NIGGGGGGGERS! We are not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists! http://www.chimpout.com/forum < 1267947149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pokes werdan7  < 1267947405 0 :Linuxiano!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Haiti=Mierda < 1267947687 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate mierda < 1267947696 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap < 1267948483 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate No hagas mierda estúpida. < 1267948485 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do not do stupid shit. < 1267948500 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn these inconsistent translations. < 1267948552 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Con voz como John Scott / Ronco, ronco / Formó todos los coros < 1267948555 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a voice like John Scott / snoring, snoring / formed the choirs < 1267948590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Con voz como John Scott / Ronco, ronco / Formó todos los coros / Tocó: Doblo con Mollo, bombo con Moro, / tom tom con Porno, joropo con Tormo, bongó con Don Johnson / Tocó con Toto, los Lobos, los Door, los Moscos / Compró dos vox < 1267948592 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the flies / bought two vox < 1267948604 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Con voz como John Scott / Ronco, ronco / Formó todos los coros / Tocó: Doblo con Mollo, bombo con Moro, / tom tom con Porno, joropo con Tormo, bongó con Don Johnson < 1267948606 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a voice like John Scott / snoring, snoring / formed the choirs / played: Double Mollo, hype with Moro, / tom tom for Porno, joropo with Tormo, bongo with Don Johnson < 1267948681 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es The others are crazy; I know them; I don't support them. < 1267948683 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Los otros son locos, yo los conozco, yo no los admite. < 1267948775 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto As I eat how I eat, nothing swims at all; nothing swims at all like I eat. < 1267948777 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267948783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto As I eat how I eat, nothing swims at all. < 1267948785 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1267948796 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es As I eat how I eat, nothing swims at all; nothing swims at all like I eat. < 1267948798 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Como yo como cómo comer, nada nada en absoluto, nada en nada como comer. < 1267948799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1267948800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1267948815 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Como como como como como como como como. < 1267948817 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How how how how how how how how. < 1267948832 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Como nada nada como nada como como nada nada como como nada como nada nada como. < 1267948835 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As nothing like nothing like nothing like nothing like nothing like nothing like nothing like anything. < 1267948981 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es Whence do I insist that thou beest? < 1267948983 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :żDe dónde puedo insistir en que beest tú? < 1267949060 0 :Chazz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1267949083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate The quick brown fox jumpeth over the lazy dog. < 1267949086 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var sl_select, tl_select, web_sl_select, web_tl_select;var ctr, web_ctr, h;var tld = ".com";var sug_lab = "";var sug_thk = "";var sug_exp = "";var dhead = "Dictionary";var dmore = "View detailed dictionary";var tr_in = "Translating...";var isurl = "";var show_roman = "Show romanization";var hide_roman = < 1267949095 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es The quick brown fox jumpeth over the lazy dog. < 1267949097 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :El rápido jumpeth el saxofón detrás del palenque de paja. < 1267949186 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es The large round potato jumpeth over the square ruse. < 1267949188 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :La gran jumpeth patata redonda sobre el ardid cuadrados. < 1267949220 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translatefromto en es In computer science, the term type punning referreth to a programming technique that subverteth or circumventeth the type system of a programming language. < 1267949222 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :En informática, el término tipo referreth juegos de palabras a una técnica de programación que subverteth o circumventeth el sistema de tipo de un lenguaje de programación. < 1267949435 0 :Chazz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267950707 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what what < 1267950732 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh mexicans < 1267950800 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o lament < 1267950805 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*@*.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx < 1267950809 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o lament < 1267950847 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's strange that one of his nicks was khazar < 1267950964 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs < 1267950968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crazy people < 1267951025 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also his platform is silly < 1267951043 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"we're not white supremacists, just negro inferiorists" < 1267951053 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well its true < 1267951057 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if hes mexican, hes not white < 1267951063 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1267951068 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he still hates black people < 1267951073 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems like it would be hard to find support < 1267951080 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since if someone hates blacks, he's probably racist < 1267951081 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside the US maybe :p < 1267951088 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so hates other races too < 1267951094 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of people outside the US are overtly racist < 1267951096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, this is true < 1267952059 0 :amca!~amca@CPE-121-208-82-97.cqzr1.cha.bigpond.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1267952827 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267953884 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267954897 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267955493 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267955496 0 :Leonidas!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1267955833 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267957307 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1267957520 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267960299 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267960463 0 :amca!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Farewell < 1267961402 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-50-117.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1267961558 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1267961724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know if it is possible on 32-bit x86, to atomically write or read a 64-bit integer from memory? < 1267961735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without mutexes or such I mean < 1267961774 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do have cmpxchg8b < 1267961789 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe lock prefixes work for 8-byte accesses < 1267961794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, yes, but that doesn't help for plain read or write < 1267961797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1267961813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what if you want to read without changing the value, but want to do so atomically < 1267961909 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, for the use case I consider, any sort of mutexes or such just have way too much overhead < 1267961956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and collisions are extremely likely. < 1267962145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, the use case is async threaded funge. And specifically it's funge space. Assuming we have (part of it) implemented as a static non-sparse array, and the rest of it as a tree structure or hash table, then it should be possible I think to only require locking for the the non-static part < 1267962166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since most programs operate around origo, this should help quite a bit < 1267962176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is how to handle 64-bit funge on 32-bit systems < 1267962208 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like you need cmpxchg8b - if you just use the same value for the comparison and the exchange, you'll get the current value read back into edx:eax ... not sure how to do writing easily though (except spinning until you get two consecutive exchanges in between another writer) < 1267962219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267962225 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lock cmpxchg8b, that is < 1267962244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds somewhat messy but okay < 1267962262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess atomically writing or reading the native word size on both x86 and x86_64 should be trivial? < 1267962291 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, simple memory transfers in the native word size are always atomic < 1267962328 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could mean that 64-bit access in 32-bit mode *on 64-bit hardware* is also atomic < 1267962336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, how backwards < 1267962348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about the actual MMU and system bus and so on < 1267962359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't there a possibility of that causing a mess there? < 1267962388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, and can you do 32-bit atomic reads, writes and CAS on x86_64 in 64-bit mode? < 1267962413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, without causing it to operate on 32 extra bits you don't want to touch < 1267962433 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does get messy in the rest of the system, but there are synchronization protocols for that, like making sure that only one cpu "owns" memory for write access at any time < 1267962456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, you mean cache coherency and such? < 1267962464 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, exactly... it also gets extra messy with NUMA, if you want to do atomic stuff to another cpu:s memory < 1267962479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I don't own a numa system, so I can't test < 1267962490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw, is L1 data cache coherrent? < 1267962517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc I read somewhere there are some restrictions on L1 instruction cache, but I have no idea about L1 data cache < 1267962534 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc, recent AMD multi-core systems are all numa, they split up the memory between the cpu:s < 1267962619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I have a 64-bit sempron that is not SMP or multicore, plus a core2duo system < 1267962631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so only the latter allows me to test this < 1267962678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, btw, do you happen to know any sort of concurrent-access hash table or balanced tree thingy? < 1267962686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RCU seems to have a high update overhead < 1267962716 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :testing doesn't prove the absence of bugs though... what you want to do is get to the bottom of which guarantees you actually have according to the x86 specs :) < 1267962731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple readers, and preferably "multiple writers-in-different-parts" should be supported < 1267962765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, of course. But testing is required to see that I didn't mess up something < 1267962804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also implementing this won't happen straight away. Consider the current stage early investigation of what possibilities I have for it < 1267962823 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-138.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267962897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also how does out of order execution affect this sort of things < 1267962908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrrm < 1267962927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that shouldn't be a problem unless it splits up a single read or write < 1267963010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the LOCK prefix seems to force a memory barrier according to AMD docs at least < 1267963047 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some care will be required, to say the least < 1267963105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, of course < 1267963126 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if any of it will cause problems, but you best prove that it won't :P < 1267963167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, also I suspect that 64-bit cells would be faster than 32-bit cells, due to less data being in each cache line -> less chance of two threads fighting over same cache line < 1267963225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "normal" funge 64-bit cells are somewhat slower than 32-bit cells, on x86_64. Most likely for the same (or rather, opposite) reason < 1267963239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/for the same/due to the same/ < 1267963564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it seems LOCK XCHG can be used for stores < 1267963609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess to optimise this, the funge *implementation* should self modify to only use it in case of multiple threads < 1267963618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1267963626 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does xchg work for 64-bit words though? < 1267963682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm good point *opens another pdf* < 1267963739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, there is an 64-bit form < 1267963749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is nothing saying that LOCK prefix doesn't work for it < 1267963756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is on x86-64 though < 1267963764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about 64-bit on 32-bit < 1267963888 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267963946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what I can't figure out is if lock xchg is required if you don't care about the data being visible right way < 1267963976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, what if you do a normal write, then another cpu does a normal write to the same cache line, but not to the same specific address < 1267964001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will the first write get lost if it wasn't flushed to main memory yet < 1267964013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it shouldn't... < 1267964163 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I just went and wrote a JSON parser in Forth, because I could not think of anything more sensible. I'm classifying this as your fault too. < 1267964168 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's set up so that it won't be cached in more than one place if anyone writes < 1267964230 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1267964414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ? < 1267964446 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, now write a FORTH-to-JSON serialiser and deserialiser < 1267964457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternatively, use xml instead of json < 1267964459 0 :MissPiggy!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1267964470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in both cases the result is something that should never have existed < 1267964494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, hm < 1267964581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what mmap()ing /dev/mem does < 1267964590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't dare test that though < 1267964640 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap:ing /dev/mem sounds like a sensible way to use it < 1267964651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har < 1267964656 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :address space is usually larger than the amount of physical memory anyway < 1267964658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, it is a char device, not a block device < 1267964674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes me think it can't be used that way < 1267964693 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Forth is a bit too low-level for "sensible" serialization to any structured format. There's cells, floating-point values and blocks of memory; that's about it. (And of course no run-time type information anywhere.) I could of course serialize some custom-defined structures into JSON, but... < 1267964716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, write a FORTH interpreter that reads the program fro ma JSON format then! < 1267964728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a* < 1267964840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I have now parses JSON into (type, data) pairs, where the types map mostly to JSON types (bool, int, float, string, array, object) and data is two cells (the value 0 or -1 for bool, a signed-integer cell for int, a float for a float, a pointer-length pair for a string, a pointer-length pair for an array and a pointer to unbalanced binary tree "string => json-value" map for an object). < 1267964882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I didn't know Forth had pairs < 1267964886 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the man page for mem links to mmap :) < 1267964900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, mem(4)? < 1267964901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not here < 1267964915 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's not a native pair, of course; just a memory block the size of three cells. < 1267964920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SEE ALSO < 1267964921 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : chown(1), mknod(1), ioperm(2) < 1267964922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is all < 1267964933 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, probably got a different manpage that, it was mem(7D) < 1267964943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I don't have mem(7D) < 1267964951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even have 7D at all < 1267964981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, what weird OS is it? < 1267964989 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SunOS at least has a 7D section. < 1267964991 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For devices.) < 1267964997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when googling, the only 7D I can find is indeed SunOS < 1267965001 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I googled, so that wasn't even linux < 1267965004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267965021 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'd be screwed up not to be able to mmap it :) < 1267965039 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, you could use normal fseek and such on it < 1267965057 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but how irksome < 1267965125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can mmap /dev/mem, according to kernel sources: < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * capabilities for /dev/mem, /dev/kmem and similar directly mappable character < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * devices < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * - permits shared-mmap for read, write and/or exec < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * - does not permit private mmap in NOMMU mode (can't do COW) < 1267965127 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * - no readahead or I/O queue unplugging required < 1267965160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1267965176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what file is that from? < 1267965185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fs/char_dev.c < 1267965191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also mmaping a char device seems just backwards to me < 1267965207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well, I have no clue what the heck readahead would *mean* on /dev/mem < 1267965266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also, iirc /dev/mem is restricted these days to only allow BIOS and PCI space or such (needed for X) < 1267965276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a kernel option < 1267965285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty sure I have it turned on < 1267965291 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I seem to remember reading a description like that. < 1267965304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't even have a /dev/kmem < 1267965308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some unknown reason < 1267965332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, I wonder what grepping /dev/mem would do < 1267965339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to actually try that either < 1267965369 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man mem says "Examining and patching is likely to lead to unexpected results when read-only or write-only bits are present." < 1267965394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I guess refers to the page flags < 1267965438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"CONFIG_STRICT_DEVMEM: -- If this option is switched on, the /dev/mem file only allows userspace access to PCI space and the BIOS code and data regions. This is sufficient for dosemu and X and all common users of /dev/mem. If in doubt, say Y." < 1267965528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I presume /dev/kmem can be turned off elsewhere? < 1267965606 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly. Or it might be that it's just not generated by default nowadays and you have to manually make the device node if you want it. I'm not sure I want to start source-diving for it. < 1267965647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my laptop which is on an older kernel has /dev/kmem < 1267965654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it is also on a distro generic kernel < 1267965658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike my desktop < 1267965717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't seem to have /dev/kmem either on this desktop. < 1267965786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, strange, om my laptop I also have /dev/oldmem < 1267965797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls -l /dev/*mem < 1267965797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-r----- 1 root kmem 1, 2 2009-07-25 23:32 /dev/kmem < 1267965797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-r----- 1 root kmem 1, 1 2010-03-05 11:17 /dev/mem < 1267965798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crw-rw---- 1 root root 1, 12 2010-03-05 11:17 /dev/oldmem < 1267965810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is < 1267965878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grepping sources on there turns up just one hit < 1267965881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./include/linux/crash_dump.h:extern ssize_t copy_oldmem_page(unsigned long, char *, size_t, < 1267965885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that doesn't seem relevant < 1267965894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait that is just headers < 1267965895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sources < 1267965940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267965942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifdef CONFIG_CRASH_DUMP < 1267965942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [12] = { "oldmem", 0, &oldmem_fops, NULL }, < 1267965942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#endif < 1267965949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from drivers/char/mem.c < 1267966029 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There seems to be a CONFIG_DEVKMEM flag, I just didn't notice it in the configura-a-tron. < 1267966046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "configura-a-tron"? < 1267966056 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make menuconfig, or such. < 1267966061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant the spelling < 1267966063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the meaning < 1267966073 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267966073 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Say Y here if you want to support the /dev/kmem device. The /dev/kmem device is rarely used, but can be used for certain kind of kernel debugging operations. When in doubt, say "N"." < 1267966088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just random irregular spellamatics. < 1267966096 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267966111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I meant the a at the end of the first word should be an e < 1267966238 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if it's from the word "configurator". < 1267966250 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Welcome to the prerelease of Adobe® Configurator. Configurator is an open source utility that enables the easy creation of panels (palettes) for use in ..." < 1267966253 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, a real word. < 1267966291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267966400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't find any other JSON libraries for Forth by googling (at least on the first three pages of results). I may have found an untapped market here. < 1267966512 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1267966553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so publish the thing XD < 1267966579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, now you need to write an XML DOM thingy with xpath support for Forth too! < 1267966595 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267966747 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267966953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is there any way to list kexec loaded kernels btw? < 1267967144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[85909.348091] sdhci-pci 0000:15:00.2: Will use DMA mode even though HW doesn't fully claim to support it. < 1267967148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how reassuring! < 1267967152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ < 1267967272 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have about three zillion lines of < 1267967274 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehci_hcd 0000:00:12.2: force halt; handhake ffffc90000072024 0000c000 00000000 -> -110 < 1267967277 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my dmesg buffer. < 1267967288 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I want to know what "handhake" is. < 1267967293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, something strange with usb 2.0 it sounds like < 1267967575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, look for what usb device might cause it < 1267967584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lsusb and look for "0000:00:12.2" perhaps < 1267967603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it would be split up there < 1267967613 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's no longer connected; based on timestamps I think that was around when I used that USB sound stick thing. < 1267967628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound stick? < 1267967647 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds stupid to call it a "sound card" when it doesn't resemble a card at all. < 1267967667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aah < 1267967673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it work well? < 1267967693 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, no problems there. < 1267967746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267967755 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.terratec.net/en/products/Aureon_Dual_USB_9842.html -- got that in order to get optical s/pdif out of the iBook back when I was using it as a TV box. < 1267967860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267967903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what exactly is wrong with normal copper for audio? < 1267967943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, they explicitly support linux < 1267967945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's unusual < 1267968058 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267968096 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, nothing wrong with coaxial s/pdif either, but the iBook only has one 3.5mm headphone plug, no other audio outputs at all. < 1267968129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with 3.5mm headphone plugs < 1267968149 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for some reason or another, the output from that was pretty noisy when connected to the amplifier; whereas with digital output there's of course no noise to speak of. < 1267968222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why s/pdif? < 1267968234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267968236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1267968247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a good 3.5mm plug should be just as good < 1267968253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, a noisy one is rather strange < 1267968333 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1267968348 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267968358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about that; at least with digital connections you get the d/a conversion done at the amplifier, which is a bit more audibly oriented device than a regular PC box. (I'm sure that the outputs from a real sound card would be a different thing.) < 1267968481 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I could get multichannel sound out from the iBook through that thing. It's just that with only two speakers connected to the amplifier, the benefits of that are a bit theoretical. < 1267969170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does the amplifier beat a sb live? < 1267969226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea about that, but at least it's bound to be reasonably good, as opposed to the sort of random motherboard-integrated stuff I otherwise have. < 1267969239 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did say that a real sound card might have also helped. < 1267969245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1267969255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just trying to compare it to my "real soundcard" < 1267969317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not aware of any benchmarks, really. < 1267969337 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a harman/kardon AVR-147; the manufacturer is reasonably well-known. < 1267969383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A 24-Bit/twin-core Cirrus Logic CS 49510 DSP processor with 32-bit post processor and 192kHz/24-bit D/A conversion", say the marketing hype, but of course you never know. < 1267969422 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And given that it's generally just 16-bit 48/44.1 kHz digital stuff that gets sent over the s/pdif link, I'm not sure how much that matters. < 1267969523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267969640 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure if the S/PDIF link supports all that. The standard sample resolution for s/pdif seems to be 20 bits, and 24-bit samples are a bit of a hack. < 1267969824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267969830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 24 bits? ;P < 1267969883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be represented as an accurate physics model of the source using numbers from R or something! < 1267969925 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The owner's manual is silent about whether it supports the s/pdif 24-bit thing, but at least the straight 2-channel PCM digital input "only" goes up to 96 kHz sample rates. < 1267970035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does support decoding the 5.1 surround DTS 96/24 format, which technically speaking is 24 bits and 96 kHz, but that involves some compression, I think. < 1267970120 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a bit doubtful whether the alsa drivers would know how to stick 96 kHz 24-bit samples out of the pipe anyway, even if it supported that. < 1267970181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_join redirects to thread, and that doesn't explain what thread join is... < 1267970335 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick history-browsing seems to suggest that it didn't explain joins back when the redirect was made, either. < 1267970344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1267971644 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bored < 1267971675 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater, watch videos about technological singularity: http://www.youtube.com/user/singist < 1267971766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This would be cleaner in C++ with templates." <-- shudder, this is from a README of a library in C < 1267971777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I can't imagine how it would be cleaner: < 1267971786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The cleanest way to use these routines is probably to define the stack node type with an initial AO_t link field, so that the conversion between the link-field pointer and the stack element pointer is just a compile-time cast. But other possibilities exist. (This would be cleaner in C++ with templates.)" < 1267971793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the full paragraph < 1267971817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and this is from libatomic_ops, which is bundled with libgc < 1267971938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lockless two-thread concurrent stack seems fun < 1267972162 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267972367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267972398 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267972402 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1267972442 0 :alise!~d4b78c20@gateway/web/freenode/x-fvikrqpzjqxmbmxx JOIN :#esoteric < 1267972504 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1267972539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm trying to define induction on the naturals set-ly < 1267972542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's < 1267972559 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define? as an axiom? < 1267972568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, just formulate < 1267972570 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could look up set theory if you want the answers < 1267972577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that < 1267972587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't mean like that < 1267972590 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you take back what you said yesterday < 1267972597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly < 1267972608 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I said enjoy your russles paradox then you called me an idiot < 1267972626 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(other than not being able to spell russell) < 1267972628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean obviously we state it as intersect(P(0), (forall n. intersect(P(n), P(S(n)))) subset-of (forall n. P(n)) < 1267972633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: no < 1267972646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I take back that you're an idiot personally < 1267972649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but your statement was idiotic < 1267972661 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can perfectly well have set builder notation without russell popping in < 1267972670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just sugar... < 1267972685 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't have self application of functions though < 1267972694 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(functions defined in the usual way) < 1267972699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well forall n. blah is isomorphic to function from n to blah and I have that so < 1267972716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah i'm gonna have to work out a nice way to combine all this < 1267972769 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can model lambda calculus in set thoery, that's scott domains and such < 1267972789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, self application as in f(f)? or as in recursion < 1267972838 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f(f) < 1267972907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've no qualm with that. < 1267972918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see f(f) as intuitively well-founded. < 1267972981 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah because if f : A -> B, then you're saying that A -> B = A but that's a source of problems < 1267973000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. < 1267973007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even id(id) is not neccessarily well-founded. < 1267973013 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I was TRYING to say the other day :P < 1267973033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So? < 1267973041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not Russell's paradox because you don't allow it :P < 1267973044 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267973053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I really don't mind id(id) not being possible to be honest < 1267973070 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to do some study today but I'm really fucking lazy < 1267973098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267973101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One issue I have is that I don't think !(p&!q) = the regular set of pair sfunction structure < 1267973121 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(p&!q) is classically used for p -> q? < 1267973123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ~(p intersect ~q) < 1267973127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: yeah < 1267973144 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION never really got why people would do that .. but can't complain because it does work < 1267973148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just think it's a nice identity :P < 1267973166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it's not like you get many constructivist set theorists so < 1267973280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait P->Q is actually P superset Q < 1267973281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not subset < 1267973307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I reasoned subset because a->b = x elem a -> x elem b = b superset-of a = a subset-of b < 1267973358 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267973395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no longer scarfaic? < 1267973406 0 :hodyna!~hodyna@188.230.46.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267973433 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah P->Q means P <= Q < 1267973506 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because false implies everything (ex falso quodlibet) is just saying that bottom is <= anything < 1267973580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267973593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently some people write P->Q as P =) Q though < 1267973596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is weird < 1267973641 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set thoery is weird :P < 1267973728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267973748 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267973835 0 :alise_!~d4b78c00@gateway/web/freenode/x-gsbtujyraetomaci JOIN :#esoteric < 1267973842 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway so < 1267973856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267973888 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think {E : x <- S, y <- S, ...} is the purest form of set building < 1267973915 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but {E : P x, Q x y, ...} is easier to make useful < 1267973921 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latter sucks though because it depends on logic < 1267973924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think of it as syntactic sugar for the axioms < 1267973926 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas logic should be defined with sets < 1267974055 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't think you can define the naturals with just set building which upsets me < 1267974070 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N = {0} union {{n} union n : n <- N} < 1267974077 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want me to give it away? < 1267974097 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Money? Please do. < 1267974123 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm rather strange... I know type theory but I don't even know the regular definitions used when implementing mathematics in set theory. < 1267974144 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Martin-Lob roolz, ZFC droolz. < 1267974413 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S = { (n, {n} union n) | n <- N } < 1267974417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267974421 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S = { {n, {n, {n} union n}} | n <- N } < 1267974548 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267974594 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of having a nice axiom but I've forgotten where it is < 1267974678 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think induction is the coolest thing ever. srsly < 1267974885 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1267974909 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a type < 1267974920 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :months := January | Feb.... < 1267974924 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then induction = case analysis < 1267974940 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have N := O | S N, induction is the normal idea, with links to recursion < 1267974947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523|away < 1267974952 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you get things like O := Z | S O | Lim (N -> O) < 1267974957 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is ubiquitous < 1267974957 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you have transfinite induction < 1267974967 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and beyond that you get inductive-recursive definitions < 1267974977 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you simultaneuously define a type and an elimiation on it < 1267974980 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even just induction on the naturals though, is so cool < 1267975002 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like we have a base, and a way to ascend... and then suddenly we ascend to infinity < 1267975011 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's a totally trivial concept < 1267975013 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's AWESOME < 1267975024 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivial?? < 1267975075 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well as in < 1267975088 0 :ais523|away!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1267975091 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like supergroupsetgraphtheory's metacalculus < 1267975110 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's so general and powerful and simple < 1267975115 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267975285 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:16:57 if you are interested in such a job in irc marketing < 1267975286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surreal. < 1267975358 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha magic negros what < 1267975364 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1267975419 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my biggest problem right now is getting some notes written < 1267975620 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grep http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.03.06 for Khazar and read on < 1267975652 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i wish logic was a more common foundation for mathematics than set theory, would be... logical? < 1267975695 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logic as a foundation? < 1267975792 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. hasn't this been done, i heard something about "plural quantification" that basically let logic talk about what set theory talks about < 1267975861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders: Basing forall on exists or vice versa? < 1267975910 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can implement exists in dependent type theory < 1267975923 0 :oklokok!~oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1267975941 0 :alise__!~d4b78c00@gateway/web/freenode/x-joxfhuwzawbbndky JOIN :#esoteric < 1267975968 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. P == ~(exists x. ~P) < 1267975977 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. P == ~(forall x. ~P) < 1267975980 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1267975982 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. P == ~(exists x. ~P) < 1267975985 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. P == ~(forall x. ~P) < 1267975989 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. P == ~(exists x. ~P) < 1267975991 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dsfsdf < 1267975993 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdfsdf < 1267975996 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. P == ~(exists x. ~P) < 1267976000 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exists x. P == ~(forall x. ~P) < 1267976019 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For all x, P is true." "There does not exist an x such that P is false." < 1267976045 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"There exists an X such that P." "Not for all X, P is false." < 1267976057 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's classical alise < 1267976061 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So defining forall in terms of exist is intuitively superior because "Not for all ..." reads horribly. < 1267976063 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Yes, it is. < 1267976071 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm taking a break from constructivism just to explore. < 1267976095 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :disgusting. < 1267976107 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Haskell! < 1267976114 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I presume you're not being entirely serious < 1267976120 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/vv9OO.png < 1267976122 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267976125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is grrrrrrreat < 1267976169 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like haskell because I'm too stupid to program in it < 1267976215 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write 1/4 of a progarm then get worried about its correctness and give up < 1267976253 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_quantification < 1267976424 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1267976518 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267976573 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267976641 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267976642 0 :alise!~d4b78c26@gateway/web/freenode/x-rupxkhulcbsumrrj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267976864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq = {(x,x) | true} is not ok in zfc :( < 1267977182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if I should represent it as eq = { (S, {(x,x) | x <- S}) | S <- * } < 1267977190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then eq(N) is { (0,0), (1,1), ... } < 1267977298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r2f = { (R, {(x,{(y, xRy) | y <- S}) | x <- S}) | R <- BiRel } < 1267977321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we take eq to actually mean eq(S) then r2f(eq)(2)(2) = true, r2f(eq)(2)(4) = false < 1267977329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asuming xRy stands for (x,y) in R, which ... it does < 1267977362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course if we allowed more sugar on top of (x,y) = {{x},{x,y}} we could just say r2f = \(R:BinRel). \(x:S). \(y:S). xRy < 1267977386 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267977483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1267977493 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267977580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does "eq = { (x,x) | x <- someset }" make you balk? < 1267977590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of Proud < 1267977591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the correct answer is no) < 1267977596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereby = i mean := that is < 1267977600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but does it make you balk? < 1267977610 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267977622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1267977624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ZFC doesn't allow it) < 1267977627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that sort of thing probably works better in uncomputable langs < 1267977646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not uncomputable at all < 1267977653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't even infinite if someset isn't infinite < 1267977661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1267977662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take someset := {1,2,3} < 1267977671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we get eq = {(1,1), (2,2), (3,3)} < 1267977674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I thought someset included all sets, somehow < 1267977685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's inconsistent :) < 1267977696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: um of course zfc allows { (x,x) | x <- someset } < 1267977706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes < 1267977710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the combined set for all sets < 1267977722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i wonder if it allows it if you exclude eq from the results < 1267977770 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1267977772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,y) := {{x},{x,y}} < 1267977773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\(x:t).y := { (x,y) | x <- t } < 1267977778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := \(S:Set_0). { (x,x) | x <- S} < 1267977781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: as in < 1267977797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := { (x,x) | x <- everything } (except there's no universal set, but) < 1267977812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine say forall sets s { (x,x) | x <- s }, except you exclude (eq,eq) from it < 1267977871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. you cannot have {(x,x) | x is an ordinal} < 1267977880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1267977883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1267977895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no set of all ordinals < 1267977924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but excluding (eq,eq) won't be enough to exclude those < 1267977930 0 :alise_!~d4b78c26@gateway/web/freenode/x-xwjsnetmfivbgjhc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267977937 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did i miss since my last utterance? < 1267977940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but excluding (eq,eq) won't be enough to exclude those < 1267977954 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : but excluding (eq,eq) won't be enough to exclude those < 1267977956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just one line < 1267977959 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but < 1267977961 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we quantify over sets < 1267977963 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is no set of all ordinals < 1267977967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that problem doesn't exist < 1267977995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq = union-of-forall (x:Set0). { (y,y) | x <- y } < 1267978008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the problem is your eq contains enough members that if it were a set, you could use it to _construct_ the set of all ordinals! < 1267978066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523: does "eq = { (x,x) | x <- someset }" make you balk? <-- what do you mean with "<-" here? "element from set"? < 1267978078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's syntax from a hypothetical lang, I think < 1267978082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1267978083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah < 1267978097 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: paramaterising over the set has no problems though, does it? < 1267978098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I still wonder what it means in this context < 1267978111 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously if S1 /= S2, then x in S1 /= y in S2 < 1267978118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: well no, the diagonal of a set is of course a set < 1267978120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, ^ < 1267978127 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so: < 1267978131 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := \(S:Set_n). { (x,x) | x <- S} < 1267978138 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_n meaning "work out the damn levels yourself" here ;-) < 1267978148 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then eq on two different sets is < 1267978156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given x in S1 and y in S2 < 1267978168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267978172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(S1 eq S2) & (x eq(S1) y) < 1267978176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* I guess you aren't going to answer it < 1267978181 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: huh what < 1267978189 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you account for subsets then < 1267978190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, " ais523: does "eq = { (x,x) | x <- someset }" make you balk? <-- what do you mean with "<-" here? "element from set"?" < 1267978194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, that < 1267978195 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(S1 subset-of S2) & (x eq(S2) y) < 1267978204 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: set builder notation, look it up < 1267978209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, also (x,x) means what here? tuple construction? < 1267978219 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,y) is {{x},{x,y}}. < 1267978235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I have not seen <- in set builder notation < 1267978241 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait then (x,x) is not okay < 1267978244 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well it means in < 1267978245 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there :P < 1267978250 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x,x) = {{x},{x,x}} < 1267978255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, why not the e-ish shape for that? < 1267978271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and {x,x} is, well, {x} < 1267978271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more specifically i'm too lazy < 1267978271 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: windows loathes unicode input < 1267978281 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess (x,x) = {{x},{x}} is fine actually < 1267978287 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except wait < 1267978292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1267978298 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can't use the usual definition of second element < 1267978308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it looks like a strange hybrid between set building (with element) and list/monad comprehensions from haskell. of course for the Set monad, <- means the same as element of in set building. < 1267978323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, yeah I had only seen the ∈ notation for it < 1267978327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the confusion < 1267978347 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah i'm just using more convenient syntax to type out < 1267978350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<- reminded me of list comprehensions though < 1267978364 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey i can define Ethingy as a relation itself :) < 1267978372 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1267978378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah erlang has <- in list/binary comprehensions too < 1267978385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that results in "x in y" meaning "(x,y) in 'in'" < 1267978398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, yearghs < 1267978443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I think you need to have some operators that you can not define in terms of other ones < 1267978450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1267978450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, they are not syntax sugar < 1267978463 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're called axioms < 1267978465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, captain obvious at your service! < 1267978481 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i'd have the definition of the 'in' relation be axiomatic but even that doesn't work :) < 1267978551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what about defining x in S by using {x} ⊆ S ? < 1267978561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure if that is completely valid < 1267978566 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i don't need to define the in relation :P < 1267978567 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it is < 1267978573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no < 1267978579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you used strict subset < 1267978581 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of subset < 1267978582 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad boy < 1267978583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, no I didn't? < 1267978592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, there is a line below it here < 1267978593 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do i have that the other way around < 1267978599 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm so used just to using ascii notation < 1267978729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wait oh dear < 1267978740 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := \(S:Set_n). { (x,x) | x <- S } < 1267978742 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is too large too < 1267978744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it desugars to < 1267978759 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267978767 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq := { (S, { (x,x) | x <- S }) | S <- Set_n } < 1267978770 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right? < 1267978799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1267978821 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i feel small :P < 1267978851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a _subset_ of Set, but not an element, afaict < 1267978883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your contradiction only appears if you think all subsets of Set should be elements < 1267978907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : i'm so used just to using ascii notation <-- I don't know what the ascii notation is for that < 1267978929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the math notation is a lot easier to read due to being the way I'm used to seeing it < 1267978933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well I have the regular hierarchy Set_1 = {Set_0} < 1267978933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_2 = {Set_1} < 1267978934 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1267978946 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_0 = everything not in the Set_n hierarchy < 1267978953 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by Set_n in eq, just imagine another wrapper function with n < 1267978969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: um shouldn't that be Set_1 = {x | x subset Set_0} ? < 1267978982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1267979008 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well Set_0 elem Set_1 < 1267979010 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereby elem i mean is in < 1267979018 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq = { (n, { (S, { (x,x) | x <- S }) | S <- Set(n) }) | n <- Nat (or some other type for the levels) } < 1267979030 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still too big < 1267979033 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally, but Set_1 would contain many other elements < 1267979033 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all our eggs in one set < 1267979042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: such as? < 1267979069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, what do you mean "too big"? < 1267979074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as _every_ subclass of Set < 1267979080 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, and what language is this in? < 1267979095 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: too big meaning we can derive the set of all ordinals from it < 1267979106 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i'm trying to define equality as a relation without causing everything to break < 1267979107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267979108 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and set theory < 1267979115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: take a look at Von Neumann-Bernays-Godel theory < 1267979119 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: where Set is? Set_0? < 1267979144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, why exactly is that bad? Allows some messy paradox? < 1267979152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it seems to me that since all my notions are defined in terms of sets, "eq", no matter how paramaterised, is still a fucking gigantic set < 1267979156 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although... wait < 1267979187 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eq has the cardinality of the natural numbers, eq(n) has the cardinality of Set(n), eq(n)(S) has the cardinality of S < 1267979201 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe if we avoid letting people combine all these into one, it's safe? oerjan? < 1267979340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: in NBG theory, eq is a perfectly legal _class_. it is not a set. < 1267979348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, btw you might like this comment from a library that is embedded inside libgc: "This would be cleaner in C++ with templates." < 1267979361 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah < 1267979374 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that sort of defeats the entire point of building everything on sets < 1267979374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NBG only has two levels, but i guess that's easy to generalize < 1267979374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(something I disagree with) < 1267979378 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: saw, in the logs. < 1267979382 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's probably right < 1267979391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, right < 1267979392 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is almost unusable due to its lack of parameterised types < 1267979407 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: then isn't class just = Set_1? < 1267979418 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the set of the set of sets < 1267979418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, well, here all it neded was a pointer to a special field. *shrug* < 1267979429 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess "the set of" doesn't make much sense since we're not talking types hrtr < 1267979430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*here < 1267979434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: well possibly < 1267979441 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i mean this is the same way you disallow russell's paradox isn't it? < 1267979451 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not allowing sets to contain members "higher" than themselves? < 1267979453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the traditional way < 1267979498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: as long as you distinguish eq(n) as different levels, i think you should be fine < 1267979517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically all of this is leading to creating a fun lil' set theoretic esolang (Hyper Set Language is, well, not crappy but zzo38 in that it's... completely and utterly inconsistent in every way) < 1267979524 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in the formal sense of inconsistent) < 1267979535 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't need an extra S parameter though - just use Set(n) ? < 1267979539 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i will run into problems in that set theory isn't really constructivist, for instance you won't be able to do the reals < 1267979554 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm really? so eq(n) is the equivalences of every set of level n? < 1267979573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so e.g. eq(0) is all we ever care about really < 1267979581 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it's rare that we'll ever want to compare the Set_1, Set_2 and so on bonanza < 1267979588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, isn't equality a relation on sets already? Isn't it in some areas _defined_ as being the reflexive, symetric, antisymetric, and transitive? < 1267979606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\?/ relation?/ < 1267979617 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no equality isn't a real relation in zfc because it's too big < 1267979642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, well, I don't remember if it was zfc even I was thinking about < 1267979647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a more naive set theory < 1267979666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: that's my intuition of it < 1267979676 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: nice < 1267979697 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, slight issue in that to paramaterise on level we need a function Set < 1267979705 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set : (n:Nat) -> Set (n+1) < 1267979714 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a bit of a circularity here... < 1267979727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, wait, is eq "equals" or "equivalence"? < 1267979730 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully though the result type doesn't matter in set theory < 1267979732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the latter, then ignore what I said < 1267979734 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because values aren't tied to sets < 1267979739 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: equality < 1267979749 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: complicates the axioms, though < 1267979779 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm Set(n) is "the value of x in the tuple (n,x) that is in Set" < 1267979791 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we have Set := { (0,Set_0), (1,Set_1), ... } < 1267979799 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quiz: what set level can we put Set into? < 1267979809 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it contains Set_0, it contains Set_1, ... < 1267979814 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, great < 1267979817 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set_omega contains Set :-) < 1267979826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: if you take that too far i think you're going to get an inconsistency eventually < 1267979835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a hunch though < 1267979861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very vague one :D < 1267979863 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah isn't this what principa mathematica set up only to be whooped by godel? < 1267979869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, all this strange ASCII notation for perfectly fine symbols confuse me :( < 1267979881 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh shut up < 1267979935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: hm, i don't really know the PM type system, or how far _up_ it goes < 1267979969 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up, up and away! < 1267979997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh "large cardinals" in my intuition is much about how to simulate this kind of stuff inside zfc < 1267980032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm < 1267980105 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :large cardinals are hilarious < 1267980115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why i just love the huge list of them on wikipedia < 1267980147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly is the point of "const volatile"? No it isn't a pointer. < 1267980180 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, strongly inaccessible cardinals allow you to put models of ZFC inside each other, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grothendieck_universe < 1267980182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, nvm, figured it out < 1267980221 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imho zfc is pretty shitty < 1267980340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : dunno why i just love the huge list of them on wikipedia <-- link? < 1267980343 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am totally underqualified to hold that position though < 1267980386 0 :benuphoenix!~benuphoen@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267980395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, since: Large cardinal (Redirected from List of large cardinals) < 1267980401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that contains no such list < 1267980406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is elsewhere? < 1267980427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see top of article redirected to < 1267980428 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large_cardinal_properties < 1267980433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267980434 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267980649 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should formulate my own set theory so that it can be laughed at how horrible it is < 1267980667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good morrow. < 1267980715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, intentional typo? < 1267980717 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(exists x. x in {}) seems like a reasonable start < 1267980722 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267980726 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intentional untypo < 1267980747 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is < 1267980769 0 :tombom__!~tombom@86.29.64.16 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267980781 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(exists x. {x} subset-of {}) < 1267980798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1267980803 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall x. x superset-of {} < 1267980930 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually i think in is more fundamental than subset < 1267980942 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1267980954 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x subset-of y := forall z, z in y -> z in x < 1267980981 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that requires implication be something other than subset < 1267980985 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise we have a circularity < 1267981221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : intentional untypo? < 1267981224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1267981227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- ? < 1267981228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1267981238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: actually i think in is more fundamental than subset <-- what is? equals? < 1267981239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well could be < 1267981269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x subset-of y := forall z, z in y -> z in x <-- ... notation please... < 1267981281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't read it < 1267981282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267981300 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you ca < 1267981302 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*can < 1267981445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1267981458 0 :alise!~d4b78c26@gateway/web/freenode/x-ugpnfdnpxvtegmfc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267981463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i said before i was cut off < 1267981471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and being obstructive in your communication will just result in me... not communicating < 1267981530 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1267981560 0 :tombom__!~tombom@82.18.195.157 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267981573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, was it ∀z(z ∈ y → z ∈ x) < 1267981574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267981588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. as you well knew < 1267981600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it turns out, you know english! < 1267981604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but since you defined <- to be "in", shouldn't -> be "in" the other way? < 1267981632 0 :alise__!~d4b78c26@gateway/web/freenode/x-dnzvzjjlftynkefl JOIN :#esoteric < 1267981643 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, at this point is where i just stop bothering to talk as you do not understand ad hoc notation < 1267981651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, there is xemacs for windows. There is M-x set-input-mode TeX < 1267981654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does wonders < 1267981669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I find ad hoc notation confusing and hard to read < 1267981673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1267981682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1267981688 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267981706 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as does your mother < 1267981738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, that one doesn't even make sense < 1267981788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, "your mother 'finds ad hoc notation confusing and hard to read'" is not even an insult is it? < 1267981821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what she said! < 1267981828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, :P < 1267981864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267981908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering how bad autoconf code is, I wonder what autoconf itself is like < 1267981912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, any idea? < 1267981926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: likewise bad < 1267981938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shouldn't it be even worse logically? < 1267981947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code generated by autoconf is much better than the code of autoconf itself < 1267981948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering it can generate such messy configure output < 1267981954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, whoa < 1267981985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put < 1267982002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267982008 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he put < 1267982009 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I put quite a lot of effort into learning how autoconf itself works, to use it properly; it seems GNU didn't < 1267982020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, touchpad error deleted most of my message after I'd already written it < 1267982038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no undo in your client? < 1267982059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doesn't help after you've already pressed return < 1267982062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :race condition < 1267982068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I deleted it /as/ I was pressing return < 1267982086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267982273 0 :hodyna!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267982282 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267982428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw that new "swap as compressed pages in ram" thingy seems really interesting < 1267982444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and quite a lot faster than normal swap with a lot of the benefit < 1267982460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :experimental staging driver in 2.6.33 it seems < 1267982861 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-10-22.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267983605 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267984071 0 :alise!~d4b78c32@gateway/web/freenode/x-janbebkjifcawmqk JOIN :#esoteric < 1267984255 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267984327 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267984534 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-11-138.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267984696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love this little machine < 1267984747 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267984848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, dpi? < 1267984969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the screen is not great. it's very TN (colour distortion is pretty much unavoidable). but 1366x768 @ 13" = 120 ppi < 1267984989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13.6" = 115 ppi, so whatever the exact size it's a good ppi < 1267985024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, aren't most monitors TN? < 1267985039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. but it's very TN i.e. not a very high quality TN < 1267985044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1267985055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. if you look at it even slightly off the proper place you get dark to light gradient over the whole thing < 1267985068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you look at it a bit too much from above than you should it's all white-washed < 1267985071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I think my desktop is TN but rather high quality TN, while my thinkpad is lower quality TN < 1267985082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but from a good angle - and those are the most common angles to look at a laptop from - it's fine < 1267985084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, the colour doesn't change that quickly for the laptop < 1267985094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing is almost certainly worse than a thinkpad display < 1267985104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but consider, thinkpad costs like a thousand and a bit pounds < 1267985113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this costs something like £475 < 1267985122 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-172-3-169.range86-172.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267985135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spoiler: it's not very fast, though; single core 1.2ghz and no virtualisation in sight. well at least i think it's single core < 1267985135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can see line in supposedly "smooth" gradients on my thinkpad (such as in gimp colour picker). Not so on my desktop < 1267985148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats an Atom any day < 1267985148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if that is due to the monitor or the intel graphics < 1267985199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also thinkpads are great but the greatness was not spent on the speakers at all, and only a little bit of it on the display < 1267985228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1267985250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, iirc thinkpad uses some magnesium cage thingy internally though. And the keyboard has drainage holes (you can see them when looking at the laptop from below < 1267985251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267985274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(beats me why they end up right below it, shouldn't that mean it could flow to the battery and fry things badly? < 1267985275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1267985406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267985410 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267985618 0 :alise!~d4b78c32@gateway/web/freenode/x-mwrfxbrereyhjegh JOIN :#esoteric < 1267985634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, see log < 1267985654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that connection must be annoying < 1267985657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still in a taxi? < 1267985662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen the logs < 1267985663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no < 1267985670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out taxis stop sometimes :( < 1267985675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how boring < 1267985703 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that this place has no interwebs < 1267985717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there goes my plans for a taxi based perpetum mobile :( < 1267985857 0 :Quadrescence!~quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1267985962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, this is somewhat amusing to read: http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html#whatsnew < 1267985973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah I know they haven't yet filled it in... but still) < 1267985988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... is really a popular feature it seems < 1267986089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh oerjan isn't here any more < 1267986098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why argh? < 1267986128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wanted to quiz him about mathqs :P < 1267986208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, lucky him who left < 1267986333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... FAUST "Functional AUdio STream"... What are the chances of that name NOT being designed to fit the acronym? < 1267986357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ^ < 1267986369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Low. < 1267986428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I wrote what I wanted in TeXmacs but it can't copy to Unicode. < 1267986451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, TeXmacs? Isn't that some weird type setting thingy that isn't compatible with LaTeX? < 1267986468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried it and found it irritating to say the least < 1267986494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't weird and it can export to LaTeX. < 1267986504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1267986513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, from what I remember it rendered text blurry when editing < 1267986536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably perfect for you with your no-hinting mania though < 1267986550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pdfs never turn out that blurry) < 1267986572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not blurry, and the PDFs look exactly the same depending on your font settings. < 1267986572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, I mean, pdf with text in... pdf with a photo of blurry text could of course) < 1267986585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks exactly like the .ps files that TeX generates, in fact. < 1267986597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1267986632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I use slight hinting on linux < 1267986645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the LaTeX for the bold, non-italic set names used as variables> < 1267986646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*variables? < 1267986646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267986652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like \forall x \in X < 1267986656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you enclose X in? < 1267986662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm *tries to remember* < 1267986703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathbb N? < 1267986729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I couldn't remember, so I checked what lyx did when I clicked the button for it :P < 1267986732 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathbb is the doublestruck style, if you want that. < 1267986738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\mathbb{N} < 1267986739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1267986749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you just want non-italic bold, that'd be mathbf. < 1267986756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1267986764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, bold, set -> blackboard bold in my parser < 1267986768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that is italic for single-letter names. < 1267986769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how that happened < 1267986817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what fizzie said produces bold here? < 1267986826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in lyx preview at least < 1267986866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigh. < 1267986898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't know what you want then :/ < 1267986980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway whatever. < 1267987125 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1267987214 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267987214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever indeed; though I have to note that for me \mathbf{X} (even for single-letter strings) certainly produces non-italic bold; I had to use amsmath's \boldsymbol{} recently to get some homework answers compatible with the homework questions, which used italic-bold style for vectors and matrices. < 1267987249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the $...$ is in italic-formatted stuff. < 1267987258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ? < 1267987270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use \mathbf{foo} *inside* $$ < 1267987303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works for me < 1267987311 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ DESU $$ < 1267987318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy, $$? < 1267987334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was between those that it was supposed to be inserted < 1267987337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not between two of them < 1267987363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, isn't display style different? \[ or something ? < 1267987407 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ is set apart, $ is not < 1267987441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ x $$ is not the recommended way of doing displaymath in LaTeX, though. < 1267987445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the older TeX-style. < 1267987452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1267987457 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah; amsmath has a bunch of better options < 1267987468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I'm not old enough to having used TeX directly < 1267987470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only LaTeX < 1267987475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean, just plain LaTeX has better options; $$ is not even officially part of LaTeX. < 1267987478 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\[ .. \] is. < 1267987485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed < 1267987507 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I did not know that < 1267987510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one in their right mind uses just plain TeX < 1267987544 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"While the double dollar sign (still) works in LaTeX, it is not part of the "official" LaTeX command set (in fact, most books on LaTeX don't even mention it) and its use is discouraged. Use the bracket pair "\[", "\]" instead." -- though that's from a guide. I think I saw it in a more reputable source too, though. < 1267987547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with exception of Knuth and those that implement LaTeX, ConTeXt and such) < 1267987565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the reason for that though? < 1267987569 0 :user2!~mojo@dsl-69-171-137-91.acanac.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267987580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My guess is that it involves equation numbering or such < 1267987613 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1267987650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another guide says that $$ can lead to wrong spacing in "some situations". And yet another says that \[ .. \] is preferred because the ending tag is different, which helps in error checking. It will still do close to the same thing. < 1267987879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but then why hasn't $ $ been replaced to help error checking as well? < 1267987909 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX does define \( .. \) as a replacement for $ .. $, but I haven't seen anyone seriously advocate the use of that. < 1267987940 0 :user2!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267987980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is irritated at llvm.org for not providing a list with all sub projects such as clang and klee < 1267987996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the project using llvm list seems to be "non-llvm.org based projects" < 1267988246 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They seem to call those things sub-projects, but there's not much of a list to be seen. < 1267988267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I said sub project above yeah < 1267988271 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1267988277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, klee and clang are the two I know about < 1267988278 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html has a sort of a list in the status update section. < 1267988292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes sure, but I want to see the full list, and any that aren't yet there < 1267988306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also looking at the svn ( http://llvm.org/viewvc/llvm-project/ ) doesn't help much < 1267988312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, cfe turns out to be clang < 1267988352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah http://compiler-rt.llvm.org/ exists at least < 1267988366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, trying to do a zone transfer on llvm.org didn't work very well either ;) < 1267988383 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that rarely works. < 1267988404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no idea if it was on my side or their side it was blocked < 1267988440 0 :Wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267988462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poolalloc.llvm.org did not exist for example < 1267988463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their side, probably. I have a feeling that the current BIND example configs (and defaults for other servers) nowadays allow zone transfers only for explicitly listed secondary nameservers. < 1267988479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, probably < 1267988483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why though? < 1267988550 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To avoid leaking any unnecessary information about the structure of their network, is I guess the official explanation. Not that it should hurt in the usual case, but why go advertise around 1quasi-private things like that if it isn't necessary. < 1267988602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1quasi? < 1267988609 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quasi < 1267988626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I think that 1 was intentional < 1267988650 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it. < 1267988658 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was intentional, I don't recall what the intention was. < 1267988747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1267988765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this poolalloc thing seems very interesting < 1267988790 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's another stated reason; AXFR replies are several times larger than any other (usual) DNS messages, so DNS-based ways of doing DDoS attacks (like the usual: send a whole lot of small UDP dns requests with the same spoofed source IP) are made worse by allowing those. < 1267988851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.auscert.org.au/render.html?it=80 for example seems to recommend against it. < 1267989234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the project "safecode" seems fairly interesting too < 1267989541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting ones found so far: clang, klee, poolalloc, safecode. Poolalloc seems to be an optimisation pass to automatically detect and rewrite code that would benefit from using a memory pool < 1267989581 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1267989690 0 :alise_!~d4b78c23@gateway/web/freenode/x-jgtpqmiorxsolypc JOIN :#esoteric < 1267989795 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1267989812 0 :alise__!~d4b78c00@gateway/web/freenode/x-zjqaaomalfpcfznj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267989822 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that, on balance, laptops were definitely designed by someone without a penis. < 1267989894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267989915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, oh? < 1267989922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, is it getting fried? < 1267989953 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD No. < 1267989960 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267989960 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just not the most comfortable position for a computer < 1267989979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I was about to suggest "or because you find it so comfortable?" < 1267989982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1267989986 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1267989990 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh; I thought this was some sort of attituditional complaint about laptops lacking some metaphorical BALLS. < 1267990005 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that an invisible laptop on your lap or are you just happy to see me? < 1267990011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yeah they have nipples instead (at least thinkpads does XD) < 1267990038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, hey, did I mention that joke someone told me about modern smart phones being so big? < 1267990067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it went: is that a smartphone in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? < 1267990081 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a manly laptop with a TrackPoint should be referred to as a hermaphrodite? < 1267990105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I think you can take a sexual joke too far :P < 1267990108 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster has a laptop from a range that used to be manly and sturdy but is now merely Asian. I hereby refer to it as a ladyboy. < 1267990118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, haha < 1267990133 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LadyPad: The laptop that doubles up as a... I'm stopping this right here. < 1267990136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, you know, when I called lenovo support I ended up at IBM < 1267990138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last week < 1267990167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a small crack in the plastic that makes up the palm rest, went on warranty, user replaceable part) < 1267990179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err wait, it was this week even < 1267990185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still isn't past midnight < 1267990197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be delivered tomorrow or the day after that I guess < 1267990699 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267991588 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267991644 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1267992937 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1267993071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, safecode proved useful too < 1267993079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found a wtf in cfunge using it < 1267993094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlikely to actually cause any harm in practise, but very wrong stiff < 1267993095 0 :Ilari!~user@2002:5871:273b::1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1267993096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still* < 1267993102 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders whether "A is evidence for B" is equivalent to "~A is evidence for ~B" < 1267993106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION corrects the order of those free() calls < 1267993110 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Defining "A is evidence for B" as P(B|A) > P(B). < 1267993141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1267993144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't the issue... < 1267993252 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's perhaps better expressed as P(A and B) > P(A)*P(B). Take the complement, and you get 1 - P(~A or ~B) > (1 - P(~A))(1 - P(~B)). Expand, and you have 1 - P(~A or ~B) > 1 - P(~A) - P(~B) + P(~A)P(~B)... < 1267993278 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What'd it find? < 1267993335 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expand some more, and you have 1 - P(A and B) - P(A and ~B) - P(~A and B) > 1 - P(~A and ~B)P(~A and B) - P(~A and ~B)P(A and ~B) + P(~A)P(~B)... < 1267993347 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To quote a friend of mine, ow ow ow ow! < 1267993483 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, I did that wrong. < 1267993511 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Expand some more, and you have 1 - P(A and B) - P(A and ~B) - P(~A and B) > 1 - P(~A and ~B) - P(~A and B) - P(~A and ~B) - P(A and ~B) + P(~A)P(~B). Which is much better, as we can now eliminate stuff. < 1267993519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I'm not sure... < 1267993525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, looking closer at it it makes no sense < 1267993532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I suspect broken debug info < 1267993561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, or something. I added a printf debug thingy before that point, it stopped at same point but the printf message was never output < 1267993715 0 :alise!~d4b78c22@gateway/web/freenode/x-twldqtuoexbcaihj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267993772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1267993849 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, -P(A and B) > -2P(~A and ~B) + P(~A)P(~B). Rearrange some: 2P(~A and ~B) > P(A and B) + P(~A)P(~B). < 1267993920 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let a = P(B|A), b = P(B|~A), c = P(A), d = P(B). Now ac + b(1-c) = d. A being evidence for B means that a > d. OTOH, if ~A is not evidence for ~B, 1 - P(B|~A) <= 1 - P(B) => b >= d. Thus, ac + b(1-c) = d > dc + d(1-c) = d. Impossible. < 1267993949 0 :alise_!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-axrwnqlnulidtauw JOIN :#esoteric < 1267993986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267993991 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders the implementation of ⊥-elim : ⊥ → ∀a·a < 1267994032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orthodoxy defines it as an empty case-analysis of its argument, giving ⊥-elim x := case x {} < 1267994051 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this does not gel if you most commonly do case analysis via pattern matching. < 1267994083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This translates to foo p = q; foo q = e' < 1267994084 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So consider foo x := case x {p -> e; q -> e'} < 1267994099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, for each case, emit the function with the pattern and result in the appropriate place. < 1267994114 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would suggest that the implementation is in fact the null string, and just the type signature should suffice. < 1267994116 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then what of type inferrence? < 1267994123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay this does indeed make no sense.. < 1267994128 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define this. < 1267994164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, the "bug" the experimental llvm tool sc detected < 1267994176 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1267994180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because switching order of two statements make the second error out. And they should not affect each other < 1267994198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freeing two different fields in a struct < 1267994206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(both are pointers) < 1267994209 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda implements it as "⊥-elim ()". < 1267994224 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume () is just an empty nesting there, but doing /any/ case analysis on the empty type should be verboten. < 1267994246 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having no right-hand side, meanwhile, basically makes it mandatory that the compiler c < 1267994250 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*handles this special case. < 1267994293 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the empty case analysis is still the best. < 1267994315 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complete: < 1267994325 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ⊥ : Type < 1267994341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries again with llvm-gcc instead of clang to generate the llvm .bc files < 1267994365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun that crashes in *yet* another place < 1267994398 0 :alise!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-busxbvkumklmlfqm JOIN :#esoteric < 1267994416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and something likes to strip the debug info down to bare minimum < 1267994424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck this < 1267994433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ⊥ : Type < 1267994448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, 3G stick? < 1267994491 0 :alise__!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-hxnfiujyjzwrfkfj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267994507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, now it reliably crashes in the same place (using llvm-gcc) irrespective of the order of the calls there < 1267994514 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\zxdcfghjk < 1267994521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, 3G stick? < 1267994531 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data ⊥ : Type < 1267994533 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥-elim : ⊥ → ∀a·a < 1267994535 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥-elim false := case false {} < 1267994542 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hd < 1267994544 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yesssssssssss < 1267994546 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irejg < 1267994550 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i sent it all before disconnecting < 1267994575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I think it dislikes me freeing the null pointer < 1267994577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps < 1267994580 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267994582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be valid < 1267994594 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unreliable < 1267994606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, what? free(NULL)? < 1267994621 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. many systems behave badly < 1267994635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, even C89 says that should be valid < 1267994649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you don't need to check if everything was allocated in the structure you are freeing up < 1267994661 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by having (free NULL ≡ ⊥) < 1267994666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, ..? < 1267994669 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tough < 1267994671 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still unreliable < 1267994673 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1267994675 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could do < 1267994680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, examples of systems it fails on? < 1267994684 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :⊥-elim (free NULL) < 1267994685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure I can add an if() < 1267994690 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and derive ANYTHING! < 1267994690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267994698 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mostly old ones, I am not your personal memory bank < 1267994702 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I know it's true < 1267994719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I doubt llvm targets them though < 1267994732 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still trying to help you avoid bugs < 1267994734 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop whinging < 1267994742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1267994744 0 :dougx!~dougx@vc-41-29-17-49.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1267994764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, I take advantage of free(NULL) in cfunge. If so it should be possible to turn that warning off. :/ < 1267994800 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bug-finding tool. < 1267994803 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's supposed to annoy you. < 1267994820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, actually sc is supposed to add run time checks to production code for actual bugs < 1267994834 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it detects (with low overhead) out of array bounds access and such < 1267994835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C code < 1267994861 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K < 1267994867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, also it gives error for my call to putchar() < 1267994873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well according to the line number at least < 1267994903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps due to using a VLA in that function. I don't know < 1267994906 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a slightly related thing, ANSI C allows realloc(NULL, x) as equivalent to malloc(x), but at least according to comp.lang.c FAQ "several earlier implementations do not support it, so it may not be fully portable"; they don't list problematic implementations, though. < 1267994922 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :free(NULL) might be more common than realloc(NULL, x), though.. < 1267994925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh, another thing I made use of somewhere < 1267994936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to just need one code path instead of two < 1267995031 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :realloc(NULL, x) isn't uncommon at all. < 1267995071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe not, since it's reasonably convenient. < 1267995085 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, it's OK for the same reason as free(NULL), for data structures with e.g. a length and pointer field, where the length is zero if the pointer is NULL. Ignore the length's value, expand, realloc, you're OK. < 1267995137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, yeah pretty much how I used it iirc < 1267995155 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For that sort of thing having a fixed "prevsize*2" rule for the expanding is not a very good idea, though. :p < 1267995193 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True :P < 1267995238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it reports alignment error on calling a function pointer < 1267995240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that < 1267995259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or on assigning the return value to a bool < 1267995307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whatever is on 0x419d70 < 1267995320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the debug info is mostly stripped somewhere (I don't know where, irritating anyway) < 1267995325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't figure it out really < 1267995545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... seems to be the function pointer itself < 1267995549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspect it is wrong here < 1267995659 0 :Guest21507!~droid@253.sub-97-241-243.myvzw.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1267995673 0 :Guest21507!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1267996209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise__, also it seems to dislike calling free() on something you got from strdup() < 1267996228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which the man page explicitly says should be freed using free() < 1267996257 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lolwtf < 1267996283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, well, it is an svn version, and there is no stable version yet < 1267996287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not *too* surprised < 1267996301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, you know how it is with llvm projects I assume < 1267996301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1267996314 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much of a clue. < 1267996318 0 :alise__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267996327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are *bound* to get at least two assertion errors on anything non-trivial < 1267996336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that requires some tracking down to figure out what the heck is going on < 1267996364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in this case I have to force llvm itself to not optimise things into vector stuff using SSE for example) < 1267996398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they love to use assert(0 && "foo is not implemented yet"); for erroring out < 1267996440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, clang is now past this phase < 1267996452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the clang static analyser seems to only crash sometimes nowdays < 1267996459 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet < 1267996496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, it is pretty easy to crash llvm tools in general though. Heck it is easy to make llvm unable to compile itself if even < 1267996499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or used to be at least < 1267996504 0 :dougx!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1267996519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was easy in 2.6. 2.7 is to be released on April or May iirc < 1267996537 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a month; the code freeze is in some hours < 1267996565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and the major new hot feature in almost all categories is "..." I see: http://llvm.org/docs/ReleaseNotes.html#whatsnew < 1267996573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... is the new black or something < 1267996583 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather, the release notes haven't yet been written < 1267996594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, I know, but I prefer my interpretation < 1267996608 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever makes you happy < 1267996630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, for a start, mine is funnier < 1267997663 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1267997917 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people keep asking me to debug PHP scripts < 1267998016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, no idea. Do you know PHP at all? < 1267998034 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :barely < 1267998044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no idea then < 1267998071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wareya, but while you are at it, please go formally prove the entire mediawiki codebase will you? ;P < 1267998115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1267998140 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1267998514 0 :alise!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-hlsqpezmrgumbtez JOIN :#esoteric < 1267998517 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1267998519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised something [obvious] < 1267998523 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1267998557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need special syntax for forall and the like. < 1267998559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. < 1267998561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀ : Type → (Type → Type) → Type < 1267998578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1267998580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id : ∀Type (λa. a → a) < 1267998602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually, since forall is implicit arguments I guess it's actually < 1267998647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀ : ∀Type (λa. (a → Type) → Type) < 1267998648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is, alas, circular. < 1267998664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also you need to handle the type levels and whatnot < 1267998687 0 :alise_!~d4b78c14@gateway/web/freenode/x-cktldtnmvnytwvvj JOIN :#esoteric < 1267998721 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I last say? < 1267998758 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/pmwiki.php?n=Libraries.RulesForTheStandardSetFormers < 1267998765 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scroll to the very bottom, < 1267998766 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see: π : (a : U) -> (T a -> U) -> U < 1267998770 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : T (π a b) = Π (T a) (\x -> T (b x)) < 1267998785 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is an example of an inductive-recursive definition (like I was talking about earlier) < 1267998847 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean how implementing the obvious type for induction in a dep-type lang gives you recursion? < 1267998847 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is this a separate thing < 1267998880 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm < 1267998917 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems pretty similar from those two lines at least < 1267998936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1267998955 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, actually, I can define forall nonrecursively. < 1267998975 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu < 1267999008 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀-Type : (Type → Type) → Type < 1267999009 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :∀ : ∀-Type (λa. (a → Type) → Type) < 1267999019 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the two are still axioms. < 1267999350 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/858677.txt?key=x2vpvu1ou7e3uyjcbd8ybg < 1267999364 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note: T is merely an unfortunate name, not \top) < 1267999385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION replaces it with X locally < 1267999430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, \gamma, since it looks like "y" and "y" evokes "mi" evokes "me". < 1267999857 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, my \mu-elim fails to actually let you go through the recursive structure. I should fix that. < 1267999876 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(greet "alise") < 1267999899 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map : ∀Type (λa. ∀Type (λb. (a → b) → RecList a → RecList b)) < 1267999899 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :map f := μ-elim (∨-elim (λ_. unit) (∨-elim (λx xs. cons (f x) (map f xs)) (λxs ys. consRec (map f xs) (map f ys)))) < 1267999910 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is certainly theoretic, but it's still packed with explicit recursion. < 1267999913 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As pretty as it is. < 1268000114 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: hmm, with a proper recursion combinator I could easily have my core language be point-free couldn't I? < 1268000408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Yes, with a fixed-point combinator, point-free-ness is feasible. < 1268000450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *structural recursion combinator < 1268000454 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix : (a -> a) -> a is unsound. < 1268000470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider: < 1268000484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id-specialised : _|_ -> _|_ < 1268000487 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix id-specialised : _|_ < 1268000498 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_|_-elim (fix id-specialised) : a < 1268000509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, now we can derive anything. < 1268000604 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Okay, fine. You want Mu, not y. < 1268000749 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268000801 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is even more unsound than the named definition of fix, which is a stunning anti-achievement :P < 1268000828 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y is indeed quite unsound. It doesn't work with types. < 1268000861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can type it in some systems < 1268000861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically designed for it < 1268000875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1268000878 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is that structural recursion requires mu (p |) and that bothers me < 1268000888 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already have |-elim, it'd be nice to have an independent mu-elim < 1268000893 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't think of a type for it at all < 1268000909 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu-elim : ... -> mu a -> ? < 1268000923 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know that a : * -> * < 1268000934 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we could exploit that somehow to replace the recursive bits with something of our own design < 1268000937 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like (), say < 1268000977 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance that gives for nats () | () < 1268000990 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can distinguish it in the function given by left/right < 1268000995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then what of the return value? < 1268001017 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to somehow "reduce" it < 1268001018 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that we can further eliminate it < 1268001031 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what do we need for structural recursion: a base case, and a step case < 1268001042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but how do we distinguish the two if all we have is mu a where a : * -> *? < 1268001063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise did you raed it? < 1268001078 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should check his KI-mail < 1268001102 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm doing so < 1268001118 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was just wondering because if you didn't I can try not to link anything to you < 1268001125 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would save me time obviously < 1268001145 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're so happy-go-lucky < 1268001194 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i don't get what you're trying to express with your quotes < 1268001200 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that pi is structural recursion there? < 1268001218 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every function is defined by structural recursion < 1268001222 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pi is syntax for forall < 1268001239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda like < 1268001239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:48 < alise> ∀ : Type → (Type → Type) → Type < 1268001257 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. right < 1268001296 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: is it possible to define mu-elim without having it be (mu (a |)) or similar < 1268001299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead just being mu a? < 1268001317 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu-elim : (a something -> ?) -> ... -> mu a -> ? < 1268001407 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, in Coq I can define: < 1268001409 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive Mu : Set := roll : list Mu -> Mu. < 1268001421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1268001421 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive Mu : Set := roll : (Mu * nat) -> Mu. < 1268001436 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even < 1268001436 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive Mu : Set := roll : (nat -> list Mu) -> Mu. < 1268001445 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of different ones < 1268001452 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't defined < 1268001453 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inductive Mu (F : Set -> Set) : Set := roll : F (Mu F) -> Mu F. < 1268001465 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is not valid _unless F is known to be a strictly positive functor_ < 1268001484 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :supposing F were a SPF, what would the induction scheme for Mu F be? < 1268001496 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you do it with functors? < 1268001504 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: by that question do you mean "implement Mu"? < 1268001516 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268001528 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what < 1268001539 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't know how to calcuate induction schemes from data defintions yet < 1268001541 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1268001550 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just attempting to clarify the question. < 1268001574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly know how to derive maybe from Maybe and the like if that's what you're referring to. < 1268001579 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268001582 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see, Mu there is a type < 1268001588 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except more dependent < 1268001588 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know Coq syntax, I thought it was a function type < 1268001596 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you should learn Coq < 1268001604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I believe so too. < 1268001610 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will compute a lot of things for you which would take ages otherwise < 1268001620 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my system I was going to have mu be axiomatic to solve this, like the Epigram people. < 1268001628 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the definition problem) < 1268001632 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the induction scheme. < 1268001661 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I denote, I think from Agda, the inducterifier for T with T-elim,) < 1268001694 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me try and do this bit by bit. < 1268001701 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mu-elim : ... -> Mu F -> something that doesn't involve mu < 1268001731 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Admittedly I have not actually researched the mechanical ways to do things like this because Surely The Computer Can Work It Out For Me, so this will be slapdash and stupid.) < 1268001777 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we have (a->b)->f a->f b < 1268001781 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which works out to < 1268001796 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mu f -> b)->f (mu f)->f b < 1268001800 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N := O : N | S : N -> N < 1268001805 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: i'm aware < 1268001811 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k I'll just not bother < 1268001850 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if we can transform the "guts" of some mu to something else, we can eliminate the mu. < 1268001879 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the guts are also recursive. < 1268001895 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mu (f (mu f)) -> b) -> f (mu (f (mu f))) -> f b < 1268001923 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I should learn the mechanical method for this. But my hunch is that we will be transforming the Fs into another type, and keeping the recursive structure. < 1268001947 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With some opportunity for a base case. < 1268001957 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably along the lines of the elimination given by fmap above. < 1268002132 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: Your silence is bothersome. < 1268002172 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((forall x. a x -> b x) -> mu a -> mu b) < 1268002183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is presumably doable but leaves no opportunity for a base case < 1268002197 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dealing with a situation < 1268002200 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... i think < 1268002497 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1268002588 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268002910 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we < 1268003060 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION visits a possibly malicious site from a school computer < 1268003085 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1268003099 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268003105 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1268003140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beh, nothing useful < 1268003820 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1268004029 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: it'd be cool if you just told me the induction schema :D < 1268004273 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently epigram has one single elimination operator that works on every single type < 1268004279 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is fantastic if it really works < 1268004410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_ has me on ignore? < 1268004419 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, probably not < 1268004419 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268004729 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I gave up on < 1268004730 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:42 < MissPiggy> N := O : N | S : N -> N < 1268004730 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:43 < alise_> MissPiggy: i'm aware < 1268004967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did not know that more was forthcoming < 1268004973 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't want to answer fine < 1268005012 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to say what the induction principle for N was < 1268005186 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to visit his Relto < 1268005240 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: I did not realise this at the time. Please, go on. < 1268005283 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know this one already, P(O) -> (forall n, P(n) -> P(S n)) -> forall n, P(n) < 1268005298 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for B := T | F we have P(T) -> P(F) -> forall b, P(b) < 1268005372 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268005375 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it gets more interesting with ordinal-induction, where you have something like O := Z : O | S : O -> O | L : (N -> O) -> I < 1268005379 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268005385 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O := Z : O | S : O -> O | L : (N -> O) -> O < 1268005388 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> O prs'mbly < 1268005428 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(Z) -> (forall o, P(o) -> P(S o)) -> (forall l, (forall n, P(f n)) -> P(l f)) < 1268005430 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oopr < 1268005435 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(Z) -> (forall o, P(o) -> P(S o)) -> (forall l, (forall n, P(f n)) -> P(l f)) -> forall o, P(o) < 1268005449 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait sec < 1268005453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gimme a second to read that < 1268005468 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From whence f in this definition? < 1268005472 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do not quantify over it. < 1268005479 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268005487 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(Z) -> (forall o, P(o) -> P(S o)) -> (forall f, (forall n, P(f n)) -> P(l f)) -> forall o, P(o) < 1268005493 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f : N -> O < 1268005497 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From whence l? < 1268005500 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1268005504 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P(Z) -> (forall o, P(o) -> P(S o)) -> (forall f, (forall n, P(f n)) -> P(L f)) -> forall o, P(o) < 1268005509 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is correct now < 1268005517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now lemme read it :P < 1268005558 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the last one is "show that for all f : * -> * and all n : Nat, P (f n) implies P (L f)." < 1268005567 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f : N -> O < 1268005570 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if it's true for any type-function, so to speak, it's true for L f < 1268005574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L that function, that is < 1268005579 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: right < 1268005587 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do we use this? < 1268005606 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if f is a family of nat indexed ordinals, then L f is an ordinal < 1268005623 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1268005627 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can prove P for every (f n), then P (L f) holds -- principle of transfinite induction from set theory < 1268005638 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotcha < 1268005647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just nested induction basically < 1268005652 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1268005655 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!! exacty!! < 1268005657 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, wait < 1268005665 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have P (_ : N -> O) and yet P (_ : O) < 1268005672 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1268005672 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268005673 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's f n < 1268005674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1268005674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotcha < 1268005675 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet < 1268005675 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P : O -> * < 1268005680 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so, next thing < 1268005703 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it gets more difficult < 1268005730 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if we defined a strange type of trees like this < 1268005740 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T := L : T | B : list T -> T < 1268005774 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1268005785 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably we have to nest list induction < 1268005786 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets jsut remember that list T is equivalent to Sigma n, Fin n -> T < 1268005801 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we could write < 1268005821 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T' := L' : T' | B' : (n : N) -> (Fin n -> T) -> T < 1268005833 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am unfamiliar with your definitions of Sigma/Fin in this particular case. < 1268005866 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you give me the definitions directly we can swiftly move on. < 1268005880 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : : Sigma n, P(n) it's a dependent pair < 1268005906 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fin 0 = False, Fin 1 = (), Fin 2 = Bool, Fin 3 = {yes,no,maybe}, Fin 4 = {north, south, east, west}, .. < 1268005920 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Fin n is what set theorists would term n < 1268005926 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, uh, what? < 1268005941 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigma as in dependent quantification? < 1268005943 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Sigma" is like exists, except that it's data rather than proofs < 1268005951 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right but you have to specify a type... < 1268005968 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fin : N -> * < 1268005975 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And is it Sigma a, b the syntax? < 1268005975 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Forall a, b < 1268005978 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so n is a natural number in Sigma n, Fin n -> T < 1268005984 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you could write < 1268005989 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but i still do not get Sigma < 1268005991 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma N (\n -> Fin n -> T) < 1268005995 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rewrite it with dot notation < 1268005996 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so it's < 1268005998 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was defined as < 1268006003 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigma (n:N). Fin n -> T < 1268006018 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma (T : *) (P : T -> *) : <_,_> : (t : T) -> P t -> Sigma T P < 1268006021 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268006024 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma (T : *) (P : T -> *) := <_,_> : (t : T) -> P t -> Sigma T P < 1268006025 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am still unsure why we specifically chose this to isomorph list to. < 1268006044 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lists is say, 4::4::3::2::5::5::nil, < 1268006063 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's equivalent to the function {#0->4,#1->4,#2->3,...} < 1268006071 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using # notation for elements of Fin) < 1268006098 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 0->4,1->4, etc but fair dos. < 1268006100 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do we need Sigma here? < 1268006106 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason is because we can compute the induction principle for T, but we DOnt know how to do T yet < 1268006109 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1268006110 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason is because we can compute the induction principle for T', but we DOnt know how to do T yet < 1268006122 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1268006152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no what i mean is < 1268006155 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get how a list is isomorphic to Fin n -> T < 1268006158 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1268006159 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1268006162 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're using sigma to quantify < 1268006165 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list is isomorphic to Sigma n, Fin n -> T < 1268006178 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you use the notation forall (n:N) in future? Sorry; it's just heavily ingrained in my mind. < 1268006187 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because (Sigma n, Fin n -> T) : *, but (forall n, Fin n -> T) : N -> * < 1268006188 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mind parses that Sigma very badly :/ A personal failing. < 1268006199 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list T : * whereas Vector T : N -> * < 1268006206 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I see. < 1268006212 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in mine. < 1268006215 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forall is implicit in mine. < 1268006219 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then {n:N} ->, I suppose. < 1268006239 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you can do the induction principle for T' the same way as we did O < 1268006270 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you repeat T''s definition with {x:T} -> notation? < 1268006273 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I will understand it then. < 1268006284 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T' := L' : T' | B' : (n : N) -> (Fin n -> T') -> T' < 1268006305 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*{n : N} -> < 1268006312 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, gotcha. < 1268006312 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not implicit < 1268006318 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that only handles infinite lists < 1268006321 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by {}? < 1268006323 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MissPiggy: oh right < 1268006325 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it only handles finite lists < 1268006326 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1268006329 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? < 1268006330 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every natural number is finite < 1268006335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but < 1268006338 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fin 984350934580345 < 1268006345 0 :MissPiggy!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's still finite :D < 1268006346 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work as a param to a 5-length list < 1268006363 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it isn't you have to be able to access element N for every natural N < 1268006370 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the very definition of countably infinite...