00:11:42 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:12:37 -!- coppro has joined.
00:15:22 -!- Oranjer has joined.
00:46:18 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
00:50:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot).
01:01:34 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:48:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
02:04:03 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:05:23 -!- lament has joined.
02:38:51 -!- jcp has joined.
02:49:22 -!- augur has joined.
02:55:17 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:55:52 -!- coppro has joined.
02:56:01 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
02:56:52 -!- coppro has joined.
03:08:53 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
03:40:41 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:43:51 -!- Asztal has joined.
03:53:10 -!- rodgort has joined.
04:01:59 -!- Azstal has joined.
04:04:08 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
04:04:22 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
04:16:44 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:17:14 <zzo38> Those people on #ubuntu won't help me I need to make a autorun CD that can download the following program from the internet: http://wiki.freegeekvancouver.org/w/index.php?action=raw&ctype=text/css&title=Qc.sh
04:17:33 -!- Azstal has joined.
04:18:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
04:18:42 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal.
04:25:10 -!- adu has joined.
04:26:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:29:22 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:47:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
04:47:22 <zzo38> Also, I would like to see if you can like this game and if you can figure it out: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip
04:50:44 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
04:55:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:10:59 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:20:15 -!- SimonRC has joined.
05:26:49 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
06:48:05 -!- Libster has joined.
06:48:55 <Libster> oh hi Quadrescence didn't know you were in here too
06:49:22 <Quadrescence> Libster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An5afQemAV4
07:01:18 -!- cheater2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:01:44 -!- cheater2 has joined.
07:06:34 -!- tombom has joined.
07:11:59 <Libster> should i spam this channel [ ] yes [ ] no
07:12:47 <Libster> eh don't have the energy to troll here tonight
07:12:49 -!- Libster has left (?).
07:38:44 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.).
07:50:53 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:56:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:24:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
08:48:53 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Quit: omghaahhahaohwow).
08:52:15 -!- cheater has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
08:52:18 -!- cheater has joined.
09:05:21 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
09:08:03 -!- lament has joined.
09:28:53 -!- lereah_ has joined.
09:28:57 <lereah_> "In 1990, for instance, Cristopher Moore devised a kind of idealized pin-ball machine which is capable of universal computation."
09:29:08 <lereah_> Why didn't anyone implement that!
09:31:26 <uorygl> Because it requires a frictionless environment and perfect aim and timing, I imagine.
09:31:44 <mtve> previous work is from 1982 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard-ball_computer
09:31:47 <uorygl> Then again, a powered computer can overcome such concerns.
09:32:13 <uorygl> I've written two different programming language specs based on the billiard ball machine!
09:35:37 <uorygl> To actually implement a billiard ball computer, I think you'll want an array of magnets that turn on and off periodically.
09:37:07 <uorygl> Should be pretty easy to simulate and create.
09:56:56 <uorygl> I'm tempted to do that.
10:20:37 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
10:27:43 <augur> http://i.imgur.com/0B8s9.gif
12:10:03 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:10:05 -!- lereah_ has left (?).
13:10:11 -!- lereah_ has joined.
13:24:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
13:31:54 -!- FireFly[DS] has joined.
13:45:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
13:51:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:10:48 -!- FireFly[DS] has quit (Quit: ClIRC - IRC client for Nintendo DS).
14:47:23 -!- MizardX has joined.
15:24:21 -!- fax has joined.
15:24:39 -!- fax has quit (Changing host).
15:24:39 -!- fax has joined.
15:55:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: No route to host).
15:59:28 <fax> I am not sure real analysis IS the limit of the finite calculus
16:04:15 <AnMaster> fax, hm? what is real analysis about exactly?
16:04:17 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:04:22 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host).
16:04:22 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:04:53 <AnMaster> ais523, suggestion: identify before joining channels. Freenode sends a fake quit nowdays for host mask changes
16:04:58 <AnMaster> * ais523 (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #esoteric
16:04:59 <AnMaster> * ais523 has quit (Changing host)
16:04:59 <AnMaster> * ais523 (~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523) has joined #esoteric
16:06:20 <fax> AnMaster, like infintesimals, or limits -- it's all about the continuum of real numbers and functions on real numbers
16:06:39 <fax> what calculus is made of
16:06:49 <AnMaster> fax, why is it called finite analysis if it works on R, (an uncountably infinite set)..
16:07:07 <AnMaster> unless the name "real analysis" is misleading
16:07:32 <AnMaster> but same question still stands
16:07:56 <fax> AnMaster, I explained what real analysis is
16:08:11 <AnMaster> fax, yes, and then why is it called finite calculus?
16:08:12 <fax> that was not a description of finite calculus
16:08:19 <AnMaster> <fax> I am not sure real analysis IS the limit of the finite calculus
16:08:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:08:45 <AnMaster> perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant originally
16:08:52 <fax> lament said that real analysis is the limit of finite calculus
16:09:01 <fax> I said, I am not sure that is so
16:09:12 <AnMaster> fax, limit as in "we can't do anything more advanced using this thing"?
16:09:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:09:57 <fax> ah now I see what you thought I meant
16:09:59 <AnMaster> fax, then that whole statement sounds somewhat strange to me.
16:10:16 <AnMaster> (but then, I'm no expert on such things)
16:10:51 <fax> have you studied real analysis?
16:13:16 -!- lereah_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:16:13 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.).
16:18:45 <fax> AnMaster, it's just exploring the convergence/divergence of sequences of real numbers, then series (running totals of sequences), then lim & integrability - the big theorem from it is l'hopital
16:22:59 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
16:24:02 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:24:46 <fax> but there are some striking similarities between the finite calculus and 'normal' calculus
16:26:59 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:30:16 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
16:31:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
16:32:19 <oerjan> fax: they both have a lot to do with linear algebra. both derivations are linear operators on a vector space of functions
16:35:25 <fax> oerjan how did you know we were talking about this!!!!!
16:35:45 <fax> oerjan, did you take the log of both sides?
16:35:59 <oerjan> well yeah, it was rather short
16:38:33 <oerjan> fax: see what you have done?
16:39:45 <fax> I didnt' know you knew about finite calculus!!!!
16:39:51 <fax> I wish I had concrete maths
16:41:12 <AnMaster> fax, wouldn't those be rather heavy and hard to handle?
16:41:24 <AnMaster> plus would take a lot of time to dry I guess
16:41:48 <cheater> i keep on thinking that #esoteric looks very much like #erotic
16:42:48 <cheater> and this brings us to OMG PONIES!
16:42:58 <cheater> is there an esolang for PONIES?
16:43:16 <oerjan> cheater: it's that gay sex thing
16:43:32 <AnMaster> cheater, because of what you just said
16:43:45 <oerjan> because ehird is disappeared again
16:43:50 <AnMaster> though usually he go for pink unicorn ponies iirc
16:44:03 <oerjan> cheater: well that's what you _say_
16:44:07 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:44:21 <cheater> i'm not sure if i should be insulted or aroused
16:44:32 <AnMaster> I think the latter is completely wrong
16:45:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:45:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:48:49 <cheater> hey, you're the guy turning this place into #ethics
16:56:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:04:30 <oerjan> AnMaster doesn't care about ethics at _all_
17:06:04 -!- tombom has joined.
17:06:46 -!- nooga has joined.
17:09:33 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
17:17:20 -!- kar8nga has joined.
17:19:26 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:23:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:24:01 -!- hiato has joined.
17:25:09 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
17:25:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:25:46 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In FING, does Z pop or duplicate the source
17:25:47 -!- FireFly has joined.
17:26:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um. try his test program for FING
17:27:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and atm I'm sadly very preocupied
17:29:31 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:31:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could also look at efunge or cfunge source, both supports FING
17:31:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still, use RCS's own test suite, there was some surprising semantics iirc
17:35:15 <uorygl> I'm reading the article about flax. With the help of Wikipedia, I've mostly translated the first two sentences.
17:35:34 <uorygl> Somewhat literal translation:
17:36:43 <uorygl> "Dyrka lin (Linum usitatissimum) or also simply called 'lin' is a species in the genus lin (Linum). Lin is an ettårig plant as it's been grown by humans in more than 10,000 years."
17:37:41 <uorygl> "Lin" is "flax", of course, but I don't know what "ettårig" is all about.
17:38:15 <uorygl> Ah, "which" makes more sense.
17:38:19 <ais523> oh, "annual" in English (as opposed to "perennial")
17:39:00 <oerjan> and that instance of "i" is better translated as "for" than "in"
17:39:30 <uorygl> What's the "dyrka" all about?
17:40:46 <uorygl> It would be neat if you called domestic cats "dyrka katt".
17:41:19 <oerjan> applies only to plants
17:41:22 <ais523> in English, a "cultivated cat" would be one with good manners
17:41:37 <oerjan> "tam" is the word for animals
17:42:01 <oerjan> http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katt
17:42:16 <oerjan> tamkatt and huskatt (house cat)
17:42:17 <uorygl> I think I'd rather read about tamkatten than lin.
17:42:58 <oerjan> pus is like "kitty", really, don't know why they list all the variants with that
17:43:20 -!- augur has joined.
17:43:23 <uorygl> Cognate to "pussy", I imagine.
17:43:34 <fax> pussy kitty
17:43:59 <uorygl> So in Norwegian, you have not only pussy-cats but catty-pusses?
17:44:06 <oerjan> although the _other_ meaning of pussy is translated as "mus" (cognate to "mouse")
17:44:39 <uorygl> `translate Tamkatten har også i noen grad gått under det vitenskapelige navnet F. s. domesticus.
17:44:51 <HackEgo> Tamkatten has also to some extent been under the scientific name of F. s. domesticus.
17:45:42 <oerjan> heh that's pretty good
17:46:19 <oerjan> except you'd want a "known" after been, i think
17:46:52 <oerjan> tam is of course cognate to tame
17:46:59 <uorygl> What's "noen grad gått", word for word?
17:47:38 <uorygl> "Grad" is probably cognate to "grade".
17:49:31 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:49:57 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:50:10 <zzo38> I think a good feature for a web-browser, I will add is "redial URL" command.
17:50:15 <zzo38> Sometimes when you enter a URL or follow a hyperlink it will redirect. Using reload just reloads the current URL.
17:50:21 <oerjan> ais523: norwegian "kultivert" means with good manners too
17:50:23 <zzo38> So, the idea is that using redial it will reload the original URL instead of necessariily the current one.
17:50:54 <ais523> how often do redirects change, anyway?
17:51:12 <ais523> perhaps it should work Wikipedia-style where redirects show the original URL not the new one
17:51:49 <oerjan> actually "kultivert" seems to be usable for plants too
17:52:33 <zzo38> It doesn't matter how often redirects change. (Sometimes they are random redirects, such as the "Random page" on Mediawiki)
17:53:43 <zzo38> Once I think how to implement, I will do so. C-R is already used for "rewind" so I can put C-E for "redial", maybe??
17:53:50 <uorygl> `translate Den er et lite rovpattedyr i kattefamilien, og regnes i dag som en variant av afrikansk villkatt (F. s. lybica).
17:53:52 <HackEgo> It is a small rovpattedyr in the cat family, and is today considered a variant of the African wild cat (F. s. lybica).
17:53:58 -!- Asztal has joined.
17:54:14 <AnMaster> <uorygl> It would be neat if you called domestic cats "dyrka katt". <-- that sounds like Egytians to me
17:54:38 <oerjan> uorygl: rovpattedyr = carnivore (mammal)
17:55:01 <uorygl> You mean a carnivoran?
17:55:18 <oerjan> uorygl: i don't know that distinction
17:55:33 <uorygl> Carnivorans are a clade of mammals including cats, dogs, and bears.
17:55:41 <oerjan> rovdyr alone means the same, except maybe not just mammals
17:55:53 <uorygl> Carnivores are anything that eats meat.
17:56:10 <oerjan> http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rovpattedyr
17:56:39 <oerjan> actually that article includes both with and without -patte-
17:56:41 <uorygl> Yeah, it's the carnivorans.
17:56:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, what does dyrka mean in Norwegian?
17:56:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: cultivated, i said
17:57:00 <oerjan> isn't it dyrkad in swedish?
17:57:05 <uorygl> Is "regnes i dag" literally "considered in today" or "considered in day"?
17:57:05 <AnMaster> oerjan, in Swedish it means a) worship or b) lockpicking
17:57:19 <AnMaster> thus the comment about egyptians
17:57:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: in norwegian (a) dyrke (b) dirke
17:57:30 <ais523> AnMaster: what a strange pair of words to have as homographs
17:57:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: norw. dyrka is a past participle not an infinitive (except in some forms of nynorsk)
17:58:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well I think the latter is somewhat "not slang, but not really formal either"
17:58:17 <ais523> how similar are nynorsk and bokmal, by the way?
17:58:53 <oerjan> ais523: you can write them quite similarly, although there is also an option for using very strange word choices not usually in the other
17:59:01 <AnMaster> ais523, also dyrka as worship sounds somewhat like it wouldn't have been used about Christan worship in past time. Perhaps it has a slight negative quality embedded
17:59:08 <oerjan> and some grammar endings are different
17:59:10 <ais523> oerjan: ah, pretty much like English and Scottish?
17:59:35 <AnMaster> <uorygl> Like skillingsbolle. <-- is that bokmåö or nynorsk?
17:59:35 <oerjan> ais523: perhaps, i'm not that familiar with scottish
17:59:41 <uorygl> I was sort of under the impression that Nynorsk and Bokmal were simply different writing systems.
17:59:44 <oerjan> AnMaster: both i think
17:59:49 <AnMaster> ais523, btw bokmal sounds hilarious in Swedish
17:59:51 <ais523> it's like English, except that some of the words are different
18:00:05 <ais523> I think I missed an accent
18:00:14 <uorygl> I think Wikipedia calls them "skillingsbolle" in Bokmal and "kanelbolle" in Nynorsk.
18:00:22 <AnMaster> ais523, not accent... å is _not_ a with an accent
18:00:25 <oerjan> uorygl: "regnes i dag" = "is today considered"
18:00:27 <AnMaster> it is a separate letter in the alphabet
18:00:37 <ais523> the accent is still how you /type/ it, though
18:00:37 <uorygl> oerjan: which word is which?
18:00:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Diacritics are commonly called accents
18:00:47 <AnMaster> ais523, no it isn't for me. There is a key for it
18:00:50 <ais523> just like ä and a are different letters in German
18:01:02 <ais523> AnMaster: in Hungarian, ly is a different letter from l (and not two letters)
18:01:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would say it isn't Diacritics either. Just like the dot over i isn't
18:01:07 <ais523> likewise, ll is a letter of its own in Welsh
18:01:17 <ais523> which you really have to hear pronounced to know what it sounds like
18:01:27 <ais523> but you still /type/ it as two ls
18:01:27 <uorygl> Is ll still considered a separate letter in Spanish?
18:01:32 <AnMaster> ais523, in Swedish ä is different from a too
18:01:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I would say it is, since it's still got the basic glyph "a" underneath
18:01:56 <ais523> so if you wrote Landudno rather than Llandudno, you could truthfully say you missed an l (although I'm not sure I've spelt the rest of the word correctly)
18:02:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, then i is also an IPA symbol with a dot over it!
18:02:18 <oerjan> AnMaster: book moth would be bokmøll in norw.
18:02:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, because they're different alphabets.
18:02:45 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Swedish and company use both glyphs, a and å.
18:02:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, and? what about v and w?
18:02:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: v isn't a diacritic.
18:02:58 <oerjan> uorygl: i don't think "skillingsbolle" vs. "kanelbolle" is really a bokmål/nynorsk distinction
18:03:11 <uorygl> According to Unicode, all IPA glyphs are lowercase Latin letters.
18:04:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but the same argument should apply even to non-diacritics
18:04:11 <AnMaster> where one letter looks like another extended
18:04:21 <oerjan> uorygl: i dag = today, regnes = is considered
18:04:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, the latter looks for a typo of "rains" to me
18:04:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Why should it? I'm talking about diacritics.
18:04:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, why should it *not*
18:05:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: regne means both to rain and to calculate/consider in norwegian
18:06:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: My point was that the ° on the å can/should be considered a diacritic in Swedish and therefore can be called an accent. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue at the moment.
18:06:34 <oerjan> uorygl: -s is a passive present ending, used in fairly formal writing
18:06:37 <uorygl> "Hey cloud, what are you doing?" "I'm considering."
18:06:56 <oerjan> uorygl: Vi må regne med regn.
18:07:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? it isn't considered that way though
18:07:28 <uorygl> `translate Vi må regne med regn.
18:08:00 <AnMaster> uorygl, also the thing under sleds
18:08:05 <oerjan> uorygl: norwegian like english is cursed with phrasal verbs :D
18:08:19 <AnMaster> they are also called "med" (medar in plural)
18:08:33 <oerjan> AnMaster: meie in norwegian
18:08:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, no reason to keep it at a single language is there?
18:09:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, my point was that replacing ö with o, å with a or ä with a is *incorrect*
18:09:37 <uorygl> So how would you say "I'm considering" or "I'm raining", if those are the same thing?
18:09:41 <AnMaster> and can quite often yield a different and valid word
18:09:46 <AnMaster> sometimes to hilarious effects
18:10:01 <Deewiant> Well, that can happen regardless of diacritic-ness.
18:10:07 <oerjan> AnMaster: i'm just providing comparisons
18:10:14 <zzo38> Give examples of how they can yield different word
18:10:21 <uorygl> `translate Tengo 17 años.
18:10:26 <uorygl> `translate Tengo 17 anos.
18:10:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ais523 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85#Transcription
18:10:42 <uorygl> `translatefromto es en Tengo 17 anos.
18:10:52 <AnMaster> ais523, because å -> a is incorrect. Wrong way to transcribe it
18:10:53 <oerjan> uorygl: actually "I'm considering" alone does not use regne
18:10:54 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I know all this, I'm just arguing what the term 'diacritic' means :-P
18:11:11 <oerjan> it needs to be "consider as" -> "regne som"
18:11:18 <ais523> AnMaster: according to that article, it often is transcribed as "a"
18:11:20 <AnMaster> ais523, you should use å -> aa, ä -> ae, ö -> oe I think.
18:11:27 <uorygl> oerjan: how about "I'm calculating"?
18:11:40 <oerjan> uorygl: jeg regner, yes
18:11:57 <AnMaster> because "räknar" is more like "counting"
18:11:58 <Deewiant> AnMaster: ä/ö -> ae/oe aren't valid for Finnish, not sure about Swedish. (They are valid for German, however.)
18:12:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: beregne is only transitive in norwegian
18:12:20 <AnMaster> while calculating and "beräknar" sounds more like the stuff oerjan does
18:12:43 <uorygl> How do you transcribe Finnish, anyway?
18:12:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not completely valid for Swedish I think
18:13:11 <AnMaster> conclusion: just don't drop the dots and rings
18:13:23 <ais523> I can't type the ring on this keyboard, or at least don't know how
18:13:26 <ais523> although umlauts are fine
18:13:30 <uorygl> Because you don't have access to a Finnish keyboard, perhaps.
18:13:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is just the same alphabet as Swedish isn't it?
18:13:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:13:53 <AnMaster> uorygl, Well, Swedish and Finnish share keyboard layout
18:14:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Almost: W isn't officially part of the alphabet
18:14:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it wasn't in Swedish until very recently either
18:14:23 <oerjan> uorygl: "I'm considering" alone would be more likely "Jeg vurderer"
18:14:43 <oerjan> if you're considering doing something
18:14:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, which means in a lot of dictionaries w still sorts under v
18:15:02 <oerjan> or just "Jeg tenker" (cognate to think)
18:15:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, sounds like "I wonder"?
18:15:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: no, that would be "Jeg undrer"
18:15:52 <Deewiant> uorygl: Wikipedia suggests that for Finnish, äö are just replaced by ao
18:15:59 <AnMaster> oerjan, then I have no clue what vurderer would be in Swedish
18:16:13 <oerjan> `translatefromto no sv vurdere
18:16:43 <oerjan> bedømme is also norwegian
18:17:11 <uorygl> I think Finnish looks and sounds really neat. It's too bad it's completely unrelated to English.
18:17:30 <AnMaster> uorygl, it sounds like a tongue twister all the time to me
18:18:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: except i don't think you can bedømme for an action you consider doing, only for judging something, which also can use vurdere
18:18:23 <uorygl> It means I can't learn it just by reading and using HackEgo.
18:19:20 <AnMaster> oh btw, in hand writing you often use ~ above the ä or ö in Swedish. that is, fast handwriting
18:19:30 <AnMaster> sometimes just a - if not writing neatly
18:19:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it would look really strange outside handwriting
18:19:56 <AnMaster> what do you call the handwriting where letters join together
18:20:02 <AnMaster> as opposed stand free of each other
18:20:03 <Deewiant> Not "really" IMO but a bit, yes.
18:20:08 <AnMaster> it is the former only this applies to
18:20:37 <AnMaster> kursiv is used for italic fonts
18:20:40 <oerjan> ok if there were any questions i missed above you'll have to repeat them :D
18:20:48 <uorygl> So, I barely know any non-Indo-European natural languages at all.
18:21:02 <uorygl> I know how to say a couple of language in themselves.
18:21:12 <AnMaster> I can count to three on Finnish, and I know the Finnish word for Finland
18:21:13 <uorygl> Suomi, shqip, nihongo...
18:21:32 <uorygl> I know an Albanian guy.
18:21:40 <oerjan> uorygl: shqip is actually indo-european
18:21:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you call Åbo btw?
18:22:00 <AnMaster> do you use a different name for it?
18:22:02 <uorygl> So what's "skrivstil" literally?
18:22:11 <uorygl> It looks like "scribestyle" or "writestyle".
18:22:31 <AnMaster> which really doesn't make a lot of sense when you think about the name
18:23:07 <AnMaster> but there are plenty of things in English that makes no sense too
18:23:12 <oerjan> uorygl: i recall that albanian and greek are closest relatives (a language clade? :D)
18:23:21 <uorygl> Albanian and Greek are related? Huh.
18:23:49 <oerjan> i'm confusing it with armenian, which is _also_ indoeuropean
18:23:54 <AnMaster> I can't find it in a dictionary
18:23:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: evolutionary term
18:24:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: the set of all descendants of a common ancestor
18:24:22 <uorygl> A clade is a group of all the species descended from a certain common ancestor.
18:25:23 <oerjan> AnMaster: i learned it only from wikipedia, there seems to be an ongoing biological movement to replace the old class/order style classification with a cladistic classification
18:25:42 <uorygl> So, I'm reading the Wikipedia article about kissa. I see that there are lots of long words.
18:25:50 <uorygl> It sort of looks smeared.
18:25:58 <Deewiant> What's "long" in your opinion ;-)
18:26:00 <AnMaster> uorygl, kissa? As in sv:kissa?
18:26:12 <AnMaster> why are you reading an article about urination?!
18:26:20 <oerjan> i.e. reptiles are not a clade, so some don't want to use that as a classification term (it includes all descendants of a certain ancestor which are _not_ mammals or birds)
18:26:24 <uorygl> "Oh, so that's what I was reading!"
18:26:24 <AnMaster> (which is what sv:kissa means)
18:26:37 <AnMaster> uorygl, well if it was fi:kissa I don't really know
18:26:38 <uorygl> `translate Kissoja on kesytetty ehkä jo heti maatalouteen siirtymisen jälkeen.
18:26:42 <HackEgo> Cats have been domesticated perhaps as early as immediately after the transition to agriculture.
18:26:59 <uorygl> Yeah, Finnish and Swedish are not exactly similar, are they.
18:27:07 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, there's probably some related etymology, but no, sv:katt.
18:27:28 <AnMaster> uorygl, apart from perhaps some words from our shared history, then no
18:27:44 <AnMaster> after all, Finland was a part of Sweden long ago
18:27:45 <uorygl> As far as I know, they have no shared history whatsoever.
18:28:27 <uorygl> I guess some loanwords could have gotten swapped there.
18:28:29 <Deewiant> uorygl: Finland was under Swedish rule for some 700 years :-P
18:28:47 <uorygl> The same way English has lots of Romance words even though it's a Germanic language, I guess.
18:28:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still, why didn't we manage to get you to switch to an easier to pronounce language ;P)
18:29:11 <uorygl> So, in that sentence about cats, I have no idea how to match the Finnish to the English.
18:29:14 <uorygl> Apart from the first word.
18:29:22 <Deewiant> English is such a ripoff-language :-P
18:29:24 <AnMaster> uorygl, what was the first word?
18:29:54 <uorygl> The first word was "kissoja".
18:30:03 <AnMaster> uorygl, you have lots of Scandinavian words imported. Like window, from old Scandinavian vindöga (wind eye)
18:30:25 <uorygl> "Kissoja on kesytetty ehkä jo heti maatalouteen siirtymisen jälkeen."
18:30:29 <AnMaster> uorygl, we replaced it with "fönster" later, which is a word imported from German
18:30:30 <Deewiant> uorygl: on kesytetty <-> have been domesticated
18:31:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "jo <-> as early as"?
18:31:10 <Deewiant> uorygl: maatalouteen <-> agriculture
18:31:11 <AnMaster> that sounds like a strange thing to have a two letter word for
18:31:15 <Deewiant> uorygl: maatalouteen <-> to agriculture
18:31:29 <Deewiant> uorygl: siirtymisen <-> the transition
18:31:46 <oerjan> AnMaster: norwegian still uses "vindu"
18:32:08 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well, jo <-> already
18:32:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, why does this make me thing of darth and droids btw?
18:32:22 <oerjan> AnMaster: mace windu of course
18:32:25 <Deewiant> It's just a not-that-literal translation.
18:35:11 <oerjan> uorygl: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Armenian although it's a disputed hypothesis
18:36:52 <Deewiant> Baah, REXP is just a binding to POSIX regexen
18:37:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes? didn't you know?
18:37:15 <Deewiant> Maybe I did, in which case I forgot
18:37:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what did you think it was?
18:37:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is a bit hard, since you would need to implement that dialect then basically
18:38:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, posix regex is available from libc aren't they?
18:38:16 <Deewiant> Pick a sufficiently common-denominator dialect and you can implement it with basically any library + a single preprocessing pass
18:38:25 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Only on POSIX, unsurprisingly enough.
18:38:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I can't say I care about other ones
18:38:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there are probably free standing implementations of it
18:39:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, after all, there is a glibc one, a solaris one and so on
18:39:20 <Deewiant> Yeah, gnuwin32 appears to have it
18:39:25 <fizzie> What I don't like about REXP is that you can only have one (global) regex compiled.
18:39:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, cygwin probably does as well
18:39:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, or per thread, that is disputed
18:39:43 <fizzie> I'm using a single "ignore" regex in fungot (instead of an ignore list) because of that.
18:39:43 <fungot> fizzie: it's a bit complicated, i learned something from " mathematics made difficult"? afaik no scheme module/ package system stuff, although that's not such a problem)
18:39:59 <Deewiant> fizzie: Just write the regex into Funge-Space.
18:40:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you need to recompile it then
18:40:09 <Deewiant> And then compile/execute each one individually.
18:40:48 <fizzie> Deewiant: Yes, but that's ugly. Not that I didn't consider it.
18:40:51 <AnMaster> I will make it possible to do this
18:41:09 <AnMaster> probably by requiring that it can serialise to a single funge space cell
18:41:11 <Deewiant> fizzie: Seems very Fungy to me :-P
18:41:18 <fizzie> Deewiant: As a consequence of the current implementation, the bot can't say what the current ignore regex is, because I don't store it anywhere. :p
18:41:23 <AnMaster> in a way where not freeing them doesn't cause any memory leakage
18:41:28 <AnMaster> as in, you just drop the handle
18:41:32 <AnMaster> they should act like being GCed
18:41:43 <AnMaster> which means you need a bignum funge basically
18:41:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, that seems like a bit of a limitation too :-P
18:42:25 <Deewiant> Bah, the gnuwin32 one is a dynamic library.
18:42:34 <fizzie> I have somewhere a compiler (in Java, I think) from a regex dialect into Brainfuck; i.e. it creates the brainfuck code that takes input and then prints out "acc" or "rej" depending on whether it matches the regex.
18:43:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why is that an issue?
18:43:35 <fizzie> It was a rather regular sort of regex, though; I don't think it had much more specials than the * and |.
18:43:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also you could extract the code
18:43:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:44:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or perhaps just make that fingerprint available on POSIX platforms
18:44:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It'd make CCBI depend on something else.
18:44:06 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
18:44:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so extract the code and place it in a subdir of the source code
18:44:23 <Deewiant> Yes, I can try to build it myself but one never knows how well that'll succeed. :-P
18:44:29 <AnMaster> then build and link it statically
18:44:41 <Deewiant> Requires so much autoconf and other magic to even get started
18:44:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, I didn't say glibc
18:44:52 <Deewiant> I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy :-P
18:45:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I suggested that you might only make it available if the libc supports it
18:45:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, or you could implement POSIX regexps
18:45:18 <Deewiant> Yes, I know, that's the easiest alternative.
18:45:27 <AnMaster> perhaps, not implement the fingerprint at all
18:45:36 <Deewiant> Nah, I wanna be fungot-compatible.
18:45:37 <fungot> Deewiant: i'm writing a function to dream about it.
18:45:45 <fungot> Deewiant: this setence no verb. sorry. :) i don't know one
18:46:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is unlikely to be run on ccbi I think. Since fizzie said he selected cfunge mainly because he could run longer ^bf and ^ul programs on it.
18:46:50 <AnMaster> of course, if he completes jitfunge
18:47:13 <Deewiant> What he runs it on is his concern, not mine.
18:47:47 <fizzie> Poor bot, doesn't know any verbs.
18:48:11 <Deewiant> Does anybody here have a Windows system immediately available? The .exe at http://people.delphiforums.com/gjc/hs_regex.html isn't behaving.
18:48:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, wrong. It lied. "know" is a verb isn't it? And so is "don't"
18:48:55 <fizzie> Deewiant: I should, however, distribute some sort of "fungot-compliant software" stickers for all Funge-98 interps that can run it.
18:49:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, freebsd libc should provide a very nice posix regex implementation
18:49:52 <fizzie> Like they have those Windows-compatible hardware logo things. Though then I'd need a test framework for fungot. (Which might not be a bad idea anyway.)
18:49:53 <fungot> fizzie: huh, what about the home fnord for the kerry campaign? :)
18:49:56 <AnMaster> you should extract a newer one from freebsd sources
18:50:08 <Deewiant> REXP doesn't specify version requirements, as can be expected :-P
18:50:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, freebsd sources tend to be easy to extract and use elsewhere in my experience
18:50:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it should be a few minutes of work to take it from the source tree on your local freebsd machine
18:50:35 <Deewiant> Yes, that's probably what I'll try first.
18:50:53 <AnMaster> perhaps one or two helper functions
18:52:21 <Deewiant> fizzie: You can even pop me one physically and I can take a screenshot of a computer running CCBI with the sticker in the middle of the screen, or something
18:53:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in the middle of the screen? ouch
19:01:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't have to /nail/ it to the screen
19:04:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Anyway, the short speed mention reminded me: any ideas for funge benchmarks?
19:13:34 <zzo38> Someone said "never trust a computer that you can not throw out of a window" but in my opinion the better advice should be "never trust a computer that you can not thoroughly disassemble"
19:16:03 -!- impomatic has joined.
19:16:07 <Sgeo> zzo38, good luck disassembling a microprocessor
19:17:04 <zzo38> Yes, it would certainly be difficult to disassemble a microprocessor
19:18:42 <zzo38> Try this game http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip see if you can figure it out. (Just run the EXE; do not look at the source-codes unless the EXE won't run or something else...)
19:19:08 <zzo38> It deliberately has a lack of good instructions
19:19:25 * Sgeo wonders how much he should be trusting zzo38
19:19:27 <zzo38> Because it is meant you just have to try things to see what works
19:19:41 <zzo38> Run the program in a virtual machine if you don't trust the program
19:20:07 <zzo38> (It is a DOS program)
19:21:52 <zzo38> I just want to see how many people can possibly figure it out, and even if you can figure it out, you still have to win, of course
19:22:02 * pikhq cannot run DOS programs
19:23:58 <zzo38> Maybe you can recompile it using FreeBASIC, or something like that. Or, just put FreeDOS on a virtual machine, or run it in the DOSBOX emulator, and so on
19:24:09 <Sgeo> Ok, Pidgin has screwed me over one too many times at this point
19:24:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: And what kind of screw did it screw you over?
19:24:27 <zzo38> What happened to the program?
19:24:41 <pikhq> zzo38: Use a real language.
19:24:54 <Sgeo> Tried to bring a window to the front, and it wouldn't come up. But that's relatively minor, it's just the last straw
19:25:17 <Sgeo> pidgin-facebook glitches, sometimes I can't edit my status
19:25:27 <zzo38> I wrote it in QBASIC but FreeBASIC should be able to compile it too
19:25:46 <zzo38> I used it simply because I sometimes do that when writing games on DOS
19:26:01 * pikhq shoves a C compiler down zzo38's throat
19:26:02 <zzo38> (I didn't use this computer to write it, I used a different computer)
19:26:13 <zzo38> On this computer I do have a C compiler, I use MinGW.
19:26:27 <pikhq> Your DOS machine should have one, too. DJGPP.
19:27:56 <zzo38> Perhaps it should, but I didn't use that. Maybe later I might re-write it (or a similar game) in C, and it might be on Linux console mode and Windows console mode
19:28:31 * pikhq removes zzo38's knowledge of BASIC
19:28:48 <zzo38> That other computer is actually Windows 98 and it isn't in this house, it is elsewhere, when I am there sometimes I do that on there. I have no internet connection there either, so I had to use a floppy disk
19:29:29 <zzo38> That other computer doesn't actually belong to me anyways it belongs to the school but they let me borrow it, probably permanently because they probably never want it back
19:35:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:16:23 <pikhq> There is one thing I dislike about Conkeror: C-x C-c does something.
20:16:30 <pikhq> I hate typo'ing that.
20:23:05 <oerjan> which reminds me of the main thing i dislike about simon tatham's puzzle collection
20:23:30 <oerjan> pressing q quits the fucking program, immediately!
20:24:20 <oerjan> it's apparently designed to be easily hideable in office environments :D but i have no use for that D:
20:26:26 <AnMaster> <pikhq> There is one thing I dislike about Conkeror: C-x C-c does something. <-- does it quit?
20:27:10 <AnMaster> well, that is expected isn't it?
20:27:23 <AnMaster> what would you prefer instead?
20:27:33 -!- Libster has joined.
20:27:36 <pikhq> Something harder to accidentally type.
20:27:41 -!- Libster has left (?).
20:27:52 <pikhq> Note that Emacs-style bindings stick a lot of stuff off of C-x ...
20:30:36 -!- Oranjer has joined.
20:30:47 <fizzie> I just had a friend complain about C-w closing tabs in Firefox; she was trying to do a copy-paste job on a wiki page in Firefox, and all those Emacs reflexes made her do C-w often.
20:31:50 <Oranjer> is "C-" an accepted notation for <hold down ctrl>?
20:32:31 <fizzie> It's the Emacs way to say it.
20:33:04 <fizzie> As is M-x for meta-x, and... is it C-M-x or M-C-x, actually?
20:33:22 <pikhq> C-M-x is the general notation.
20:34:24 -!- coppro has joined.
20:35:09 <fizzie> s-x (yes, lowercase) and H-x for super and hyper, it seems, though I guess there are no (or not many anyway) standard bindings for those.
20:57:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:01:00 <Oranjer> I thought it dealt with the former head of the FBI
21:01:13 <Oranjer> was his name hoover? beats me
21:01:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there is a post the occasional month or so
21:01:27 <oerjan> Oranjer: hm that rings a bell
21:01:37 <HackEgo> Hoover's proprietary company profiles and industry information. \ Log In - Companies A-Z - Companies - Industries
21:01:59 <oerjan> `google j edgar hoover
21:02:00 <HackEgo> John Edgar Hoover (January 1, 1895 May 2, 1972) was the first Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) of the United States. ... \ Early life and education - FBI career - Legacy - Personal life
21:02:15 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:02:20 <HackEgo> Vacuum cleaners from Hoover featuring the best new and reconditioned models, including powerful upright vacuums, easy to use canister style vacuums, ... \ www.hoover.com/ - Cached - Similar
21:02:57 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.5645 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
21:03:15 <nooga> we're building a 8088 based computer on a prototype board, with vintage printer and 300baud modem
21:03:36 <nooga> would you like to call our modem and trigger the led-blinking program? :D
21:03:59 <oerjan> watchen das blinkenlights
21:04:06 <HackEgo> Jump to FBI career: Hoover was noted as sometimes being capricious in his leadership; he frequently fired FBI agents, singling out those whom he ... \ Early life and education - FBI career - Legacy - Personal life
21:04:55 <nooga> oerjan: say this in language that sounds better
21:05:14 <nooga> 22:03 < oerjan> watchen das blinkenlights
21:06:37 <oerjan> nooga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights
21:09:02 <nooga> how come that i didnt know that
21:10:00 <nooga> http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/graphics/gefingerpoken.jpg
21:13:13 * oerjan hadn't seen that one before
21:13:39 <nooga> i think this is the original
21:15:13 <fizzie> Cray CX1 has this funny-looking "modernized blinkenlights" mini-screen on the chassis: http://download.intel.com/pressroom/kits/xeon/5500series/images/Cray_CX1.jpg
21:16:05 <fizzie> (And it's almost affordable by a regular person, unlike current Real Computers.)
21:18:29 <fizzie> That thing is pretty small; it's their "desktop supercomputer".
21:18:52 <fizzie> Here's one in a room: http://leahshanker.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/cray.jpg
21:18:59 <Phantom_Hoover> BtW, did that esoteric operating system ever get off the ground?
21:19:53 <fizzie> Finland's possibly biggest Real Computer, CSC's louhi (Cray XT4/XT5) looks like this: http://www.aamulehti.fi/teema/tiede/5322047-big.jpg
21:20:04 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
21:20:14 <fizzie> They look like reasonably silly refridgerators.
21:20:59 <fizzie> I seem to remember that Cray does custom colours for all their Real Computer installations; most of the other ones looked a lot fancier.
21:21:10 <fizzie> (Of course they might've selected only the best-looking ones for the slideset.)
21:21:35 <fizzie> But, I mean, compare louhi with something like http://blogs.knoxnews.com/munger/jaguartests.jpg
21:22:09 <fizzie> Or http://media.knoxnews.com/media/img/photos/2009/01/23/012409kraken1_t607.jpg
21:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I vaguely remember some form of supercomputer at the University of Edinburgh.
21:22:13 <fizzie> Even the names are more impressive.
21:22:33 <impomatic> Can anyone suggest where I can get a decent feed of programming related links, apart from Digg, Reddit, Delicious and DZone?
21:22:36 <fizzie> Though the Kraken's tentacles have some anime schoolgirl molestation connotations nowadays.
21:24:09 <fizzie> (Though the new faculty cluster we have is called Triton, which is a passable name. And I guess Louhi's not so bad if you know your Kalevala.)
21:25:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Edinburgh supercomputers: http://www.hector.ac.uk/about-us/gallery/images/cabinet1.jpg
21:28:56 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
21:30:39 <lament> molestation is my favourite station.
21:30:52 <Gregor> An appropriate answer, I think.
21:30:56 <Gregor> Also, people use the forum?
21:31:51 <fizzie> What, people use the forum?
21:32:00 <Sgeo> Apparently, some software ended up relying on uninitialized variables being filled with garbage
21:32:29 <lament> Sgeo: i can see that working in CoreWars
21:32:54 <Sgeo> OS X apparently initializes such variables to 0, which caused problems
21:33:13 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:33:36 <Sgeo> http://forums.activeworlds.com/showpost.php?p=123792&postcount=10
21:35:13 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:38:17 <lament> i wonder how that works
21:38:27 <lament> do you rely on garbage being uniformly distributed or something?
21:38:49 <Gregor> Well, if you just rely on something being, say, true by default, then any value other than 0 will work.
21:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> If you pass the -nostdlib option to gcc can you use syscalls normally inside the program?
21:43:20 <pikhq> No, fork() is not actually a system call, but rather a function that performs the system call.
21:43:35 <pikhq> However, you could write said function yourself.
21:43:48 <pikhq> Just need a small bit of inline assembly and a willingness to say "screw portability".
21:44:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you could always write the assembly in a separate file and use preprocessor directives to make it a little more portable.
21:44:57 <Gregor> Which is exactly what *libc does :P
21:45:54 <Gregor> My OS midterm (this class is so boring and tedious it hurts) there was a question putting forth that it is possible for all syscalls to be handled by a single function, but no system in reality does this, and asking why.
21:46:26 <Gregor> My answer was that nearly every system in reality does this, to simplify the interface to the kernel, and that the syscalls as visible to the user are just wrappers which raise a software interrupt, ultimately calling the same interrupt function.
21:47:03 -!- adam_d has joined.
21:47:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
21:48:08 <fizzie> On x86-64, I doubt you even need that bit of inline assembly; there's a syscall invocation code you could possibly simply call in the VDSO "virtual-library" thing provided by the kernel.
21:48:27 <fizzie> You'll still need to screw the portability, of course.
21:48:47 <pikhq> fizzie: I'm pretty sure that that's done by deep linker magic.
21:48:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:48:50 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:49:17 <Gregor> fizzie: That's provided on every platform I know of, in particular x86.
21:49:44 <Gregor> Also, yeah, that virtual library is not provided by the kernel, it's provided by the dynamic linker.
21:51:31 <pikhq> No, it's *provided* by the kernel but *loaded* by the dynamic linker.
21:52:12 <fizzie> In any case you can make use of it without linking against libc.
21:52:15 <pikhq> And the address is in the ELF auxilliary vector, passed as the 4th argument to main.
21:52:45 <Gregor> pikhq: That doesn't answer many questions, main() is called by _start, not the kernel ...
21:53:21 <Gregor> Mind you, it could just be that it's sitting on the top of the stack when _start is called, that would be the logical place for it.
21:53:23 <pikhq> Gregor: And doesn't _start just pass arguments through to main after initialising things?
21:53:48 <Gregor> pikhq: Not really, no. _start doesn't get an argc, so it has to make it, and envp isn't a pointer, it's just the environment dumped directly into the stack.
21:54:04 <Gregor> For that matter, argv isn't a pointer, it's just the args dumped directly into the stack :P
21:54:55 <pikhq> Yuh, the ELF loader dumps auxv on the stack.
21:55:51 <fizzie> If it's too complicated, you don't have to use it; if you instead want the simple way of having that bit of inline assembly. I've done both int 80h on x86-32 and the "syscall" instruction on x86-64 manually here and there. Just stick things into proper registers, that's about it.
21:56:54 <Gregor> pikhq: http://pastebin.ca/1836084 :)
21:57:11 <Gregor> Before segfaulting, that code is quite amusing :P
21:59:13 <pikhq> Mmkay, from the looks of things the auxv is after the end of envp.
21:59:37 <pikhq> So, look for the NULL at the end of envp and you have auxv.
21:59:57 <Gregor> main() is for pussies.
22:02:31 <fizzie> Yes, and think of the efficiency! If you just start at _start, your code runs a lot earlier!
22:02:55 <pikhq> And if you make everything static functions, you can optimise THE WHOLE PROGRAM!
22:03:07 <Gregor> Just inline everything into _start
22:03:16 <fizzie> And if you RET at the beginning, you've got an O(1) approximation to everything.
22:03:22 <pikhq> Gregor: The "inline" keyword doesn't actually cause any inlining.
22:03:30 <Gregor> pikhq: It's a suggestion though :P
22:03:39 <Gregor> You're at least politely requesting that the compiler please inline.
22:03:39 <pikhq> It just tells the compiler to ignore a redundant definition.
22:03:50 <pikhq> Except for GNU inline. Which does odder things.
22:04:34 <pikhq> (called "GNU inline" because of GCC's behavior of inline before it was an actual keyword. Can now be enabled with __attribute__((gnuinline)))
22:05:28 <coppro> also GCC's "extern inline"
22:05:33 <fizzie> GCC does have that __attribute__ ((always_inline)) you can try to use, though I wouldn't trust it any further than I could throw it.
22:06:00 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:07:02 -!- tombom__ has joined.
22:07:48 -!- tombom__ has quit (Client Quit).
22:08:08 <coppro> fizzie: It works well because it errors if it fails
22:08:58 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:09:14 <pikhq> fizzie: It's not necessarily a good *idea*, but it definitely *works*.
22:16:43 -!- adam_d_ has joined.
22:19:12 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:19:49 -!- cpressey has joined.
22:27:49 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100202165920]).
22:28:45 <lament> c++ kinda makes me sad for humanity
22:28:56 <lament> people use all these horrible features and *like* them
22:33:22 <lament> Oranjer: not using references
22:33:41 <lament> int x = 2; foo(x); // x could be anything
22:34:04 <Oranjer> but you just said it was 2? what?
22:34:17 <lament> it's just horrendous, it's not even the feature itself i object to but the fact that people actually use it and think it's a good idea
22:34:41 <lament> Oranjer: that's c++, foo(x) can modify the actual value of x
22:35:11 <cpressey> Hey, you need SOME way to overload assignment
22:35:16 <lament> you could do this in C with foo(&) which is 10000 times better
22:35:40 <Deewiant> Using a pointer allows null, which may not be desirable
22:35:54 <cpressey> but then if I have to pass a pointer by reference I will need to take a pointer to a pointer and AHHH I'M CONFUSED
22:37:11 <Phantom_Hoover> And then there's the question of whether foo(&&x) makes sense to the compiler.
22:37:29 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do people think MW is a poor medium for discussion?
22:41:02 <fizzie> Does it show you what part of the discussion you've read, and what's unread, in some sensible way?
22:41:48 <fizzie> In my experience that's pretty crucial; granted, "my experience" is pretty much just Usenet, which is not quite a forum.
22:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Particularly not in such a small place as the esolang wiki.
22:46:55 <oerjan> fizzie: it does if you use the history diff
22:47:08 <oerjan> ok maybe not "sensible", but it's what i do
22:47:26 <fizzie> I guess that would work.
22:47:36 <fizzie> It could be just some sort of philosophical objection about not using the right tool for the right job; though that would seem really out-of-place on the esolang wiki, too.
22:48:48 <oerjan> well i nearly always use the diff on the main articles anyway, so...
22:49:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The problem with the whole esolang community is that it's hell for the impatient.
22:51:00 <oerjan> well i guess this channel is our only realtime forum
22:51:13 -!- nooga has joined.
22:51:13 <oerjan> the others i just check now and then
22:51:27 <cpressey> Aside from our annual conference, yes.
22:51:29 <lament> Phantom_Hoover: the whole esolang community is this channel.
22:51:33 <oerjan> (including the "forum", which has rss btw)
22:51:34 <fizzie> This channel also has some problems staying on target.
22:52:14 <Gregor> The wiki is most certainly legit.
22:52:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Lament: And hence if the person you want to talk to isn't on the channel it's infuriating.
22:52:38 -!- augur has joined.
22:52:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: if i'm not on the channel i'm most likely not on the internet at all
22:57:24 <fizzie> oerjan: And if you're not on the internet, you're NOBODY.
22:58:04 <cpressey> So, I'd like to design an esolang which is basically an imperative machine except where each of the instructions is represented by an (unlabelled, undirected) graph.
22:59:03 <fizzie> That's a good thing to do; there's been far too few graphy things so far.
22:59:03 <cpressey> This would necessitate using graph isomorphism to recognize instructions and execute programs, and since it's not known if GI runs in polynomial time, programs in this language have an ... interesting lower bound.
22:59:44 <oerjan> cpressey: have you looked at eodermdrome?
23:00:40 <cpressey> I thought it was doing something different with graphs
23:01:16 <oerjan> hm yeah the instructions are subgraph substitutions
23:01:36 <oerjan> it does have that subgraph isomorphism problem though
23:01:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]).
23:02:27 <oerjan> (which is even NP-complete, except eodermdrome also has that 26-vertex subgraph limit)
23:03:34 <oerjan> cpressey: if you don't _want_ your language to be that hard to run, you could probably select instruction graphs that were somewhat easier to recognize
23:03:35 <cpressey> Knowing that it is NP-complete makes it somewhat less interesting... the interesting thing about GI is that not much is known about where it stands w.r.t P and NP
23:11:31 -!- ttm has quit (Quit: Seeeeeya).
23:15:54 <Ilari> NP-complete does not mean hopeless in all cases: In this case, if subgraphs to recognize are fixed, it seems there is polynomial algo...
23:17:11 -!- dbc has joined.
23:17:19 <cpressey> Another thing I was trying to come up with (only tangentially related) is a purely functional, yet concise, notation for constructing (again, unlabelled) graphs. What I've got so far is only so-so.
23:22:02 <Sgeo> I'm reviewing my game with coppro
23:22:20 <Sgeo> An observer mentioned that he could have captured my queen if he saw a certain move, but he didn't
23:23:52 -!- fax has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
23:28:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:51:57 <uorygl> So, a program running as root can escape from plash, right?
23:54:04 <Gregor> plash doesn't run programs as root, but if a program got root within plash, it could escape, although it'd be pretty tricky.