< 1268524897 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Prop being a subset of Set is the nicest thing.
< 1268525019 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1268525278 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: how do you feel about duplicated names in the type and definition?
< 1268525280 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flippedMagma : (M : Magma) ? M.carrier ? M.carrier ? M.carrier
< 1268525280 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flippedMagma M a b = M._•_ a b
< 1268525286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those two Ms bug me, since I could say _ for the second one and it'd be bound anyway
< 1268525517 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: sheesh at least reply when you ask me to talk
< 1268525570 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/868491.txt?key=ndyzpytcq6z99mpjfklr2w ;; two possible syntaxes for records
< 1268525574 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the latter
< 1268525615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happy pi day!
< 1268525781 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bapfhj
< 1268525804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnÃ¶rp schnibble
< 1268525812 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268525877 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268525968 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268526035 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1268526049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Happy 20100314Z.
< 1268526065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z?
< 1268526093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Zulu". Notes the time zone as being UTC.
< 1268526139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wright
< 1268526823 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://pastie.org/868510.txt?key=agfujvebkzuoixl3ljiiw how would you write this with proof irrelevance?
< 1268526828 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically >=>< and <=>>
< 1268526861 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sidenote, I guess I should have there be only one proposition x > y === y < x
< 1268526883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is salt and vinegar such a delicious potato chip flavor?
< 1268526887 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I am so fed up I can't do anything
< 1268526906 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: homeopathic alchemy
< 1268526930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Hmm. Maybe.
< 1268526958 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;(
< 1268526967 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: why
< 1268526976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because it tastes nothing like salt or vinegar
< 1268526977 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't handle people
< 1268526990 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: bah
< 1268526993 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so read the code instead :)
< 1268527012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: Oh, it definitely tastes *of* vinegar. Though the salt and the vinegar combine to produce a distinct, delicious flavor.
< 1268527064 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate vinegar but I like salt & vinegar crisps.
< 1268527064 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the salt and vinegar combined, I am, captain planet!
< 1268527093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deliciousness.
< 1268527128 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Captain Planet: an allegory about the Singularity.
< 1268527252 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: will you listen to suggestions for your algebraic thing
< 1268527265 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1268527274 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pm me but im a moody bitch
< 1268528662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The axiom that equality of real numbers in Coq is decidable is strong enough to prove the decidability of all arithmetic statements."
< 1268528664 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!
< 1268528728 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1268528873 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constructivist reals are so much better grumble.
< 1268529379 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.2.3.11/bmi/arxiv.org/html/cs/0504039v1/c8.png i wanna get texmacs working with maxima
< 1268529385 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cs/html/0504/0504039v1/c8.png
< 1268529391 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pretty
< 1268529550 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are on gnu/linux it's easy
< 1268529573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm on windows unfortunately :(
< 1268530333 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268530379 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268530411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SUP BITCHES
< 1268530462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INF ANTS
< 1268530507 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268530515 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O
< 1268530522 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what!
< 1268530595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIM ERICKS
< 1268530700 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268530702 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool
< 1268530709 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we inventing new poem forms
< 1268530752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the form is a little limited
< 1268531239 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, my computer is being a bitch. I wonder if it's Digsby's fault
< 1268531271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :76360k
< 1268531280 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it need all that memory for? :(
< 1268531655 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: have you noticed all CASs suck
< 1268531655 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268531665 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268531840 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1268531865 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :''=~('('.'?'.'{'.('`'|'%').('['^'-').('`'|'!').('`'|',').'"'.('`'^'%').('{'^'"').('`'^'%').('{'^'[').('`'^'$').('{'^')').('`'^'/').('{'^'+').('{'^'(').'"'.'}'.')')
< 1268531961 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise haen't really tried them out much
< 1268531964 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that is true
< 1268532333 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1268532639 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: mostly because they're not powerful enough to do proving
< 1268532762 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has spent the past hour writing. Wrist hurts. :(
< 1268532795 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you assume they give correct answers you can prove stuff with them :p
< 1268532806 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think there's lots of times they don't
< 1268532893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Handwriting is a *painful* archaicism.
< 1268533184 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no i mean like
< 1268533187 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not powerful enough to be proof systems
< 1268533295 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about that
< 1268533426 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a lot of things you can prove by directly computing them
< 1268533446 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"... infact, I've shown that simple programs can yeld complex results"
< 1268533593 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reconnectingâ€¦
< 1268533611 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268533644 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more on this later
< 1268533710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swats fax for quoting wolfram, especially in the context of what counts as proof -----###
< 1268533729 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what
< 1268533747 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolfram = proof ?
< 1268533749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that _sounded_ like a wolfram quote
< 1268533842 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's silly, if you stick to symbolic stuff they will give correct answers
< 1268533859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean like
< 1268533870 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the result of this program" = the result of this program
< 1268533887 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I have to prove that two huge polynomials are equal, I can do it with a CAS
< 1268533895 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ain't pretty, but it's valid
< 1268533930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: yes, but there is no unifying reason to believe all the methods in a CAS are bug-free
< 1268533939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it has no proof system
< 1268533958 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you ever use a calculator when doing arithmetic as part of a proof?
< 1268533996 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way
< 1268534009 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAS tend to assume some (very likely to be correct) conjectures
< 1268534025 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you never really know if the computation you have done has made use of it...
< 1268534043 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what?
< 1268534069 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebraic indenpences of various trancendental expressions
< 1268534172 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :?
< 1268534198 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1268534401 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: well for back-of-the-envelope stuff... i've even used wolfram alpha.
< 1268534420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my published papers didn't use much arithmetic to speak of, that i can recall
< 1268534579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it's comparable to what alise_ wants anyhow... i certainly didn't enter any of it into a proof verifier.
< 1268534766 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1268534938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night
< 1268535153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAGH. TEXAS BOARD OF EDUCATION. THE STUPID. IT BURNS.
< 1268535165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The board removed the word â€œcapitalismâ€ from [state] standards, mandating that the term for that economic system be called â€œfree enterpriseâ€ throughout the standards. Board members such as Terri Leo and Ken Mercer charged that â€œcapitalismâ€ is a negative term used by â€œliberal professors in academia.â€"
< 1268535687 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: but it's the truth?
< 1268535691 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read it on Conservapedia!
< 1268535745 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268536958 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1268537046 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268537233 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-124-134.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268537236 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloh
< 1268537245 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloh
< 1268537261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holleh
< 1268537302 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you people sleep?
< 1268537338 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1268537339 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevar
< 1268537392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's only 5:30 here
< 1268537393 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sleep is for the weak.
< 1268537403 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4:30 here
< 1268537472 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: finland?
< 1268537543 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sibeli.us/ !
< 1268537546 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go watch Endless Eight
< 1268537557 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or ... africa, RPA, greece and some small countries that i don't even know their names
< 1268537568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: è¦‹ãŸããªã„ã€‚
< 1268537581 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't read Japanese
< 1268537582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Only 21:32 here.
< 1268537587 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finland
< 1268537590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Don't wanna.
< 1268537600 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1268537626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone not know what Endless Eight is? I dare you to watch
< 1268537629 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.theonion.com/content/news/racial_slur_development_not
< 1268537638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, you should totally learn Japanese. Cram a couple thousand kanji in a month or two. :P
< 1268537716 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULY8qox-_qk Worth the anguish it caused non-me fans.
< 1268537731 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least to me, it's worth that
< 1268537745 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hate-filled bigots marched Monday to demand insults for people of all skin tones, regardless of race or nationality."
< 1268537820 0 :bsmntbombdood_!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268537845 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blargh
< 1268537853 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :japanese romances
< 1268537874 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga, do you know anything about Suzumiya Haruhi(sp?)
< 1268537965 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The correct spelling is æ¶¼å®®ãƒãƒ«ãƒ’
< 1268537970 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The concept of "Haruhi Suzumiya", if you didn't know, is that the titular character, an eccentric teenager, unknowingly has godlike powers to alter the universe according to her desires.
< 1268537976 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds awesome
< 1268537984 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, really
< 1268537990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is
< 1268538006 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for 5 of 8 episodes of Endless Eight
< 1268538031 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that's less for entertainment, and more to make a poiint
< 1268538035 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*point
< 1268538049 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3
< 1268538064 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry if that was too spoilery
< 1268538180 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah
< 1268538202 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm more interested in revealing the truth about G-man from Half-Life series
< 1268538388 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268538781 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It'sï»¿ too bad Endless is over XD"
< 1268538788 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Comment on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz2NtNuGKjE
< 1268539185 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The correct spelling is æ¶¼å®®ãƒãƒ«ãƒ’ã®æ†‚é¬±
< 1268539209 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I copied my spelling straight off Wikipedia >_<
< 1268539246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: æ¶¼å®®ãƒãƒ«ãƒ’ is just the name of a character. :P
< 1268539254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. And the book series.
< 1268540432 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268540509 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1268542597 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268543341 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION switches back to Pidgin
< 1268543392 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-jleknbptczfltypp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268543429 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time to redesign computing from the ground up!
< 1268543445 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1268543469 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should use Miranda IM
< 1268543819 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, redesigning computing from the ground up actually sounds kind of difficult.
< 1268543830 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs.
< 1268543965 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I imagine an object-oriented Internet.
< 1268543988 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a couple of different domains, and crossing each is going to be done differently.
< 1268544013 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the application domain, doing stuff within a single application; that's going to be very simple and have no security restrictions.
< 1268544036 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the machine domain, doing stuff on a single machine; that's going to be a bit more complex and there are going to be lots of security restrictions.
< 1268544059 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's the Internet domain, doing stuff across the Internet; that's going to be even more complex and there are going to be even more security restrictions.
< 1268544119 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1268544130 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1268544904 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: channelling Scott McNealy circa 1997?
< 1268544926 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps.
< 1268544947 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the network *IS* the computer! and I woulda gotten away with it, too, if it wasn't for you pesky kids.."
< 1268544972 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Files, one of Unix's fundamental units of organization, can be greatly done away with; they can be replaced with some abstract object thingy.
< 1268544983 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this abstract object thingy would essentially be a file. :P
< 1268545086 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wouldn't necessarily have exactly one location in the filesystem, though; it could have multiple, or none at all. In the latter case, it would be garbage collected as soon as there were no surviving pointers to it.
< 1268545204 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: have you seen Eros OS? no distinction between long and short term storage
< 1268545253 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have not.
< 1268545262 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like what you're describing
< 1268545269 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program memory just magically persists
< 1268545276 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Extremely Reliable Operating System?
< 1268545298 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's the one
< 1268545324 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh, looks like it forked in 2005 to Coyotos and CapROS. shows how much I've been keeping up with these things.
< 1268545937 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268545993 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268546230 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :?
< 1268546416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: So. Smalltalk.
< 1268546428 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, filesystem?
< 1268546429 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah.
< 1268546432 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smalltalk, except it's the entire Internet!
< 1268546440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. Smalltalk.
< 1268546443 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I imagine it would look a lot like Smalltalk.
< 1268546456 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood
< 1268546464 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tell me what a trans-Internet pointer looks like in Smalltalk. :P
< 1268546481 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, if Smalltalk already supports that...
< 1268546486 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...then that is fucking awesome.
< 1268546506 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure Project Croquet stuck that into Smalltalk.
< 1268546542 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268546566 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-247-81.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268546699 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Croquet Project?
< 1268546750 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. That.
< 1268546962 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Croquet project is an outstanding display of how when you layer bad ideas on other bad ideas, nobody cares.
< 1268546979 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Croquet, the game, on the other hand, is awesome.
< 1268547181 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees your croquet and raises you Brokkian Ultra-Cricket
< 1268547345 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...
< 1268547366 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And yes I know croquet is a real game.
< 1268547370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Ultra-Cricket is not.
< 1268547384 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine that the "ultra" version of a game so complicated that the human brain is only capable of understanding either it or all other games, is a good idea.
< 1268547430 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ultra-Cricket once had its rules bound into a single volume. It became a black hole.
< 1268547479 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bravo, sir.
< 1268547497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not my joke. Is Douglas Adams.
< 1268547506 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha, didn't know.
< 1268547507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(read Hitchhiker's Guide. It is imperative.)
< 1268547519 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have, but a long long time ago, in a galaxy not to far from here.
< 1268547521 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This galaxy, in fact.
< 1268547524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah.
< 1268547584 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*too far, of course >_>
< 1268548535 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with the Croquet Project?
< 1268548579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some interesting ideas composed by people without a clue how to do a usable UI.
< 1268548618 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the entire project is mostly a UI design project.
< 1268548648 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants OpenCobalt to succeed
< 1268550041 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at Smalltalk, I don't think I care for it.
< 1268550108 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe tomorrow I'll come up with a language that's a cross between Smalltalk and Haskell.
< 1268550366 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1268553375 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268553398 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268553599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended
< 1268553600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268554100 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.
< 1268555150 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268555651 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268556783 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268557118 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: kwertii
< 1268557323 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268557908 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268566932 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268568575 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268569087 0 :MigoMipo!~migomipo@84-217-8-185.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268569101 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268569266 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268569570 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1268569784 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1268569916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://www.theonion.com/content/news/racial_slur_development_not <-- :D
< 1268569927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, http://www.theonion.com/content/news/man_on_internet_almost_falls_into
< 1268570687 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-214-137.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268571603 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268572781 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268574345 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268574513 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1268574523 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX
< 1268575014 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1268575051 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow
< 1268575157 0 :olsner_!~salparot@c83-252-161-133.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268576372 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268577204 0 :olsner_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: olsner_
< 1268577653 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268577719 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268577820 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory
< 1268578525 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-192-43.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268579502 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1268579528 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268579908 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268580210 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out
< 1268580268 0 :puzzlet!~puzzlet@61.251.165.103 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268581083 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-044.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268581108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows 7 is actually not all that horribterrible.
< 1268581239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I do wish that Toshiba didn't bundle it with crapware like McAfee.
< 1268581304 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268581342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: wolfram's idea of a proof system: http://www.wolfram.com/products/mathematica/newin6/content/EquationalTheoremProving/
< 1268581346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: Does not include proofs.
< 1268581393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://library.wolfram.com/infocenter/Articles/3885/ apparently someone was crazy enough to build a theorem prover on mathematics
< 1268581394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*mathematica
< 1268581435 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise!!
< 1268581558 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi there
< 1268581565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last day i'll be on til friday :(
< 1268581571 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds
< 1268581677 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you don't know who Bruno Buchberger is??
< 1268581706 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Buchbergers algorithm
< 1268582029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't look at names :)
< 1268582126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:42:59 not that it's comparable to what alise_ wants anyhow... i certainly didn't enter any of it into a proof verifier.
< 1268582126 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verifier? Why, oerjan, you /start/ with the prover, not /end/ with it!
< 1268582130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you end with it too.
< 1268582159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so I was inspired by the suckingness of all CASs to try and unify my OS and my language by adding elements of term rewriting to my language so that it can be used as part of a full-stack CAS
< 1268582161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is then the OS
< 1268582228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am also quite mad
< 1268582361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:09:01 * Sgeo switches back to Pidgin
< 1268582376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually using Digsby because I don't value my IM passwords and Pidgin sucks way too badly on Windows :)
< 1268582395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:16:59 You know, redesigning computing from the ground up actually sounds kind of difficult.
< 1268582395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There /is/ a reason it subsumes all my other projects...
< 1268582430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:36:12 Files, one of Unix's fundamental units of organization, can be greatly done away with; they can be replaced with some abstract object thingy.
< 1268582430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patented, dude. I patented it.
< 1268582442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:42:04 ahh, looks like it forked in 2005 to Coyotos and CapROS. shows how much I've been keeping up with these things.
< 1268582442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and coyotos died
< 1268582448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the dude wen to work for microfuck
< 1268582460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Microfuck is totally the most realistic MS-mangling.)
< 1268582499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:16:24 I can't imagine that the "ultra" version of a game so complicated that the human brain is only capable of understanding either it or all other games, is a good idea.
< 1268582499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3
< 1268583223 0 :nooga!~nooga@86-63-119-166.sta.asta-net.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268583800 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....
< 1268584477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maxima is rubbish
< 1268584792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, how do you tell LaTeX that yes, this multiple-character string /is/ a variable name?
< 1268584855 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1268586015 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1268586506 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds
< 1268586999 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268587236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR := \p q. p (\x. p) q
< 1268587254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISFALSE := \x. OR x TRUE
< 1268587263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISTRUE := \x. x ISFALSE FALSE
< 1268587270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I forget just how pretty the lambda calculus is.
< 1268587317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Then ISBOOL := \x. OR (ISFALSE x) (ISTRUE x), of course.)
< 1268587334 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't ISTRUE just id ...
< 1268587350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... yes.
< 1268587369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I was trying to make "types" from scratch with just the lambda calculus.
< 1268587375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then ISBOOL would be the type ISBOOL.
< 1268587380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, ISFALSE/ISTRUE would also be types.
< 1268587387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: but the issue is that it could be some /other/ function of two arguments.
< 1268587414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x. OR (OR x TRUE) (x ISFALSE FALSE)
< 1268587416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x. OR (OR x TRUE) x
< 1268587419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x. OR (NOT x) x
< 1268587423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Law of the excluded middle!
< 1268587484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you accept it then
< 1268587489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x. TRUE
< 1268587509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x f y. f y
< 1268587512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISBOOL := \x f. f
< 1268587529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Is this value a boolean?" "Identity function."
< 1268587949 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds
< 1268588421 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host
< 1268588421 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268589374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes a superstrict lambda-calculus evaluator in emacs
< 1268589385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what relation this has to specialisation
< 1268589436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POW 3 (given POW x y = y^x) will result in a lambda, which will be evaluated; this lambda will have all instances of x replaced with 3, resulting in applications involving 3. these will be reduced as far as possible
< 1268589453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One wonders whether it's turing-complete, though, with all this strictness.
< 1268589461 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in emacs??
< 1268589494 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268589525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm.
< 1268589526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In C.
< 1268589530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did write it in Emacs, though.
< 1268589570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Superstrict LC compilation would be the fastest a pure pinnacle of mathematical beauty would ever run on a machine made out of atoms, and bits.
< 1268589585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION braces self; installs cygwin.
< 1268589588 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This will be painful.
< 1268589601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cygwin is /always/ painful.
< 1268589606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it beats using cmd.exe.
< 1268589611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wait, I have powershell, which is okay.
< 1268589614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Powershell + MinGW?
< 1268589858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also related to symbolic evaluation
< 1268589891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that if it sees a variable it doesn't know it ignores it, and if you do f x where f is known but x is not it substitutes x in f
< 1268589951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including for f (g x y) where f, g and y are known but x isn't; y is substituted for the appropriate place in g, resulting in an expanded g with the free variable x; and then this is substituted for the correct position in f
< 1268590654 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1268590659 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268591075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A random small power of two in J: */1+?24$2
< 1268591085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Increase/decrease 24 to get smaller(on average)/bigger powers.
< 1268591121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read out: Multiply over 1 plus random in range 24 twos
< 1268591137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where ?n has n possibilities; i.e. ?1 is always 0, so ?2 is 0 or 1.
< 1268591148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ?2 2 is 0 0, 0 1, 1 0 or 1 1.
< 1268591166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ?2 2 is 0 0 0, 0 0 1, 0 1 0, 0 1 1, 1 0 0, 1 0 1, 1 1 0, or 1 1 1. (See a patern?)
< 1268591185 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we get 24 of those, add 1 to them so we get e.g. 1 2 2 instead of 0 1 1.
< 1268591191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then we multiply them: 1*2*2 = 4.
< 1268591318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pow2 := monad define
< 1268591319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*/1+?y$2
< 1268591319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268591334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then (pow2 n) produces a value in the range 1 to 2^n, inclusive.
< 1268591376 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :???
< 1268591381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What?
< 1268591409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, actually, it's in the range 1 to 2^(n-1).
< 1268591412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what's ??? ?
< 1268591423 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268591475 0 :jcp1!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268591501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haha, sweet: J's natural language facilities then mean that "pow2 (m,n)" produces n "pow2 m"s.
< 1268591538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pow2 (n,i,j) produces an i x j 2d array of "pow2 n"s.
< 1268591538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on, so forth.
< 1268591561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can write that shorter as "pow2 (n i j)" of course. Even shorter as "pow2 n i j".
< 1268591581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I didn't even write any code to do it :-)
< 1268591586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what confuses you?
< 1268591612 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yndpaf
< 1268591618 0 :jcp1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268591618 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my hands feel like they're goint to fall off
< 1268591622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why
< 1268591624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cold or hot?
< 1268591630 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither
< 1268591660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what
< 1268591682 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268591690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha (pow2 '') ('' is empty array) is 1 or 2
< 1268591693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love J
< 1268591693 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268591709 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268591736 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268592600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursion in C:
< 1268592601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LC *lcalloc(void)
< 1268592602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{
< 1268592602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : return malloc(sizeof lcalloc());
< 1268592602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :}
< 1268592608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only pikhq was here to see it.
< 1268592810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, Windows pops up a little "blah.exe has stopped working, trying to find a solution..." box if you dereference a null pointer
< 1268592848 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmmmm, that doesn't actually recurse, does it?
< 1268592901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope!
< 1268592914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like the relatively common, and good practice, int *x = malloc(length * sizeof *x);
< 1268592921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess sizeof(*x) is more best-practicey.
< 1268592928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's good because it works even if you change the element type of x.
< 1268592943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY function is good simply because it's ridiculous.
< 1268592965 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but it's /not/ recursion in C. It neither recurses at compile time nor runtime.
< 1268592968 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Beautiful.
< 1268592970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Window Title]
< 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superstrict.exe
< 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Main Instruction]
< 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :superstrict.exe has stopped working
< 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Content]
< 1268592979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows is checking for a solution to the problem...
< 1268592980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Cancel]
< 1268592980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, I can Ctrl-C that fancy box.
< 1268592981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Which is why I called it "recursion in C".
< 1268592991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait what? You didn't tab-complete the first time I tried.
< 1268592995 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... okidokie.
< 1268592995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Wait, what?
< 1268593003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I woke up.
< 1268593005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's silly. It is permissible for me to be silly.
< 1268593018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But... you didn't join.
< 1268593020 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT IS NOT PERMISSIBLE
< 1268593023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless mIRC won't tab-complete away clients...
< 1268593029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I've been here all this time.
< 1268593049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I literally do not turn off this computer. Or the IRC client upon it.
< 1268593123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: goddamned DST.
< 1268593123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but mIRC didn't tab complete you before :P Maybe it wsa just me
< 1268593220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*was
< 1268593491 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268593772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: as soon as i figure out how to define adverbs I'll do your finite calculus in j
< 1268593776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though j has derivative already...
< 1268593811 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that will be so cool!!!
< 1268593814 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make sure you show me it
< 1268593887 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268594040 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268594091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well here's deriv
< 1268594092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : deriv =: adverb define
< 1268594093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u (y+1) - u y
< 1268594093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268594103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : id deriv 3
< 1268594104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1
< 1268594142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : - deriv 0 1 2 3 4 5
< 1268594142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_1 _3 _5 _7 _9 _11
< 1268594161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I can't do your proofs - J doesn't do that stuff
< 1268594195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: but there's the deriv operator...
< 1268594201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do finite integration now :-)
< 1268594237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : % deriv i. 10x
< 1268594238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 1 2r5 3r11 4r19 5r29 6r41 7r55 8r71 9r89
< 1268594243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it doesn't matter if you can encode proofs
< 1268594244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(%x is 1/x)
< 1268594248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just write correct code, that's as good
< 1268594265 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I think that definition of deriv is the closest to flawless code you can get :P
< 1268594295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: now write integration
< 1268594308 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, integration is quite difficult :)
< 1268594313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inded it is
< 1268594315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*indeed it is
< 1268594317 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure I am ready for that yet
< 1268594326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at your discrete definite integral - gulp
< 1268594331 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to have some theory of stirling numbers
< 1268594332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :higher-order functions are /not/ J's strong point
< 1268594344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has adverbs that's about it... and if you really want you can pass functions around, with difficulty
< 1268594358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it has three arguments
< 1268594366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j doesn't really "do" >2 arguments, you have to use an array :)
< 1268594399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (% deriv) deriv i. 7x
< 1268594400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 1 65r209 451r2011 1729r9649 4901r32621 11521r88801
< 1268594402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the humanity!
< 1268594502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: my derivative actually works on non-Z functions
< 1268594504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it's fucking pointless to do so...
< 1268594517 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it pointless?
< 1268594525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you want anything like regular derivative that is
< 1268594538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : id deriv
< 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+----------------------+
< 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¦id¦+-----------------+¦
< 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¦ ¦¦1¦:¦u (y+1) - u y¦¦
< 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¦ ¦+-----------------+¦
< 1268594539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+----------------------+
< 1268594545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as impressive as the output of symbolic differentiation :)
< 1268594554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol mirc converted real box drawing chars to ascii automatically
< 1268594617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : +/ deriv (1,2,3,4,5,6)
< 1268594617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_99
< 1268594667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's deriv on f : [int] -> [int]
< 1268594668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1268594684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more accurately [[...[int]...]] -> [[...int...]] (stripping off one level)
< 1268594729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if deriv wasn't an adverb I could just do deriv^:_1
< 1268594733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VOILA, INTEGRATION
< 1268594735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p
< 1268594759 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1268594762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh j also has limits
< 1268594767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cute syntax ^:_
< 1268594768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e.
< 1268594773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f^\infty(x)
< 1268594958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: anyway if you have any functions that aren't too higher-order related to this i can define them
< 1268594965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries plotting a derivative
< 1268595110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plot sin steps 0 10 100 // just copying this for reference
< 1268595113 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268595124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x=: steps 0 10 100
< 1268595124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : plot x;sin x
< 1268595134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- (9 of 23) Plot -------------------------------------------
< 1268595136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The above example could have been entered more simply as:
< 1268595136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268595136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : plot (];sin) steps 0 10 100
< 1268595150 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was about to say something about there being more reals than functuibns, but that's only functions we can.. describe? write down?
< 1268595172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The set of reals is smaller than the set of functions, because uncomputable reals do not exist.
< 1268595180 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah
< 1268595189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you take the meaningless view that they do "exist" - which unfortunately most mathematicians do -
< 1268595195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes, the reals are more numerous than the computable functions.
< 1268595225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they cannot be described, they cannot be calculated; they do not have any existence more than a seemingly-meaningful but actually meaningless jumble of words that is labelled their "definition".
< 1268595227 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaitin%27s_constant
< 1268595232 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1268595236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Does not exist. Look up "constructivism"
< 1268595252 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 doesn't exist
< 1268595262 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX
< 1268595284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean exist as in "has any meaningful properties relating to its value in an abstract universe".
< 1268595285 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say something about constructivisim, but I think it's an argument against a strawman
< 1268595314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constructivism proved the four-colour theorem, bitch.
< 1268595437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lol my id deriv has values other than 1 i think
< 1268595464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you call it on a float
< 1268595571 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268595624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: plot (];% deriv) steps 1 100 100
< 1268595632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plots the derivative of %
< 1268595634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works perfectly
< 1268595671 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :show me :(
< 1268595688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what, a screenshot?
< 1268595692 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1268595834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: uploading
< 1268595885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://i.imgur.com/bg46u.png
< 1268595906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that steps 1 100
< 1268595910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*100 100
< 1268595911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could just be steps 1 100 :P
< 1268595917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's steps start end lengthofresult
< 1268595924 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the derivative of a product?
< 1268595944 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no I see what it is
< 1268595971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%x is 1%x
< 1268595972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is
< 1268595974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1
< 1268595974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-
< 1268595974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x
< 1268596030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so % deriv x is almost but not quite %x...
< 1268596032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : % deriv 100
< 1268596032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.00990197
< 1268596033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : %100
< 1268596033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.01
< 1268596035 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most things in school aren't required for a typical 9-5 job.
< 1268596035 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lets cut out art, gym, health, and science. We can just teach basic arithmetic, reading, writing, with a few word processing programs, and we're good.
< 1268596042 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P.S. Everything seems elitist when you are a fucking moron.
< 1268596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : % deriv 100x
< 1268596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100r10099
< 1268596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : %100x
< 1268596047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1r100
< 1268596052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well using rationals /didn't/ help
< 1268596059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D
< 1268596070 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268596101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Hey, basic arithmetic is not really required.
< 1268596117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:55:26 18:42:59 not that it's comparable to what alise_ wants anyhow... i certainly didn't enter any of it into a proof verifier.
< 1268596121 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:55:26 Verifier? Why, oerjan, you /start/ with the prover, not /end/ with it!
< 1268596131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a ridiculous way of doing _real_ mathematics
< 1268596144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you mean the discovery aspect?
< 1268596148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268596152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah, the idea is
< 1268596159 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing I could actually support cutting out from fax's list is art
< 1268596209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use it to fuck about with stuff -> EUREKA -> try some cases -> write down some things -> prove them bit by bit -> repeat a few dozen times until you get something that works -> check nobody else's done it -> repeat even more -> use the literate programming system to write a paper with it -> publish in Communications of the AliseLang Theorists
< 1268596215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that good enough for you? :P
< 1268596296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that the discovery aspect of mathematics happens in my _head_, long before anything is written down.
< 1268596312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally
< 1268596322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fucking about with stuff is just aimless masturbation in hope of inspiration :P
< 1268596456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i expect (but this is of course prejudice) that the straightjacket required to actually get _anything_ into a prover will ruin the working of intuition.
< 1268596487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly but at some point you have something working and you need to write it down to publish
< 1268596504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're expected (at least in my fantasy utopia dreamworld) to be quite formal in your notation there
< 1268596509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why not write it into a computer instead?
< 1268596534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway of course we haven't mitigated the straitjacket. yet
< 1268596549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose. i just don't consider that to be anywhere near the _start_ of things. :D
< 1268596578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see your quote above)
< 1268596615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, well - for now the mind is the best way to think of stuff
< 1268596628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think computers can help right at the point you decide to start testing things and mutating stuff into other stuff
< 1268596647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then after you dream up the Perfect Generalised Property - a (rather long) break back to the mind - when you start proving shit
< 1268596717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly i have never dreamt of, or proved, /anything/ nontrivial
< 1268596734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1268596796 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, prove that f(x,y) = (x^2+y^2+x+2xy+3y)/2 is a bijection from N^2 --> N
< 1268596827 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(N = {0,1,2,3,...})
< 1268596858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: in the grand scheme of things, that is also trivial
< 1268596893 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268596910 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no trivial mathematics, only trivial matehmaticians!
< 1268596911 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Wareya
< 1268596934 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit
< 1268596939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i expect it's the formula for an approach i've already seen, of counting minor diagonals in sequence
< 1268596994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: prove for a,b,c in N+, n in N, n > 0, no valid choices can satisfy a^n + b^n = c^n
< 1268596997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er
< 1268596999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n > 2
< 1268597024 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::|
< 1268597028 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268597036 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit
< 1268597052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that is equal to ((x+y)(x+y+1) + 2y)/2
< 1268597072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or triang(x+y) + y
< 1268597091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D., practically
< 1268597123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MATHEMATICS
< 1268597133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"blah blah blah reduced form. Q.E.D."
< 1268597146 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan fuck how did you possibly get that so fast
< 1268597152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the reduced form is "obviously" that counting minor diagonals thing
< 1268597184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: he's a mathematician! :p
< 1268597188 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i recognized x^2+y^2+2xy in there
< 1268597196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very basic formula
< 1268597223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also i already know triang(n) = n(n+1)/2
< 1268597251 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268597260 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way it generalizes like C(a+b+c+2,3) + C(b+c+1,2) + C(c,1) I think
< 1268597277 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since i already _knew_ the minor diagonal approach involves a triangle for the previous diagonals, i expected that to be there
< 1268597277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ruzulu.com/find-name-origin/eliezer-yudkowsky
< 1268597284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So /that's/ the origin of Yudkowsky's name.
< 1268597305 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1268597309 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Wareya
< 1268597311 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Wareya
< 1268597340 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's up?
< 1268597350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something math
< 1268597353 0 :Wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k
< 1268597363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've not yet read the logs enough to know how this started
< 1268597406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but you started it...
< 1268597408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well actually i may have started it
< 1268597431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i sort of thought you and fax already had a conversation about math mixed into this
< 1268597562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i assume that first term is counting "pyramids"
< 1268597568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: just about J
< 1268597570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and finite calculus
< 1268597572 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1268597611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then you would want hyperpyramids next. but that is simple using finite calculus integration iirc
< 1268597632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's how you found this?
< 1268597699 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god
< 1268597713 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hm?
< 1268597719 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite calculus!
< 1268597761 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you applying integration here?
< 1268597762 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: C(x,n+1) is the integral of C(x,n)
< 1268597769 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my god!!!!
< 1268597782 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean you didn't know? :D
< 1268597785 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so awesome :D
< 1268597798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man I have to proof this using my finite calculus library
< 1268597940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha
< 1268597950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit fax you're giving actual evidence for oerjan's synchronicity
< 1268597974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you'll need to define integration first mwahaha
< 1268597981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sheesh that name origin size barfs on the first letter in my name
< 1268597987 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did define integral!
< 1268597994 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I even proved the Fundamental THeorem
< 1268598011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it still manages to conclude i'm almost certainly norwegian
< 1268598045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it thinks i may be danish. i expect that is because it doesn't recognize my first name
< 1268598138 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks out alise's name
< 1268598148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :english did come up on top, barely
< 1268598156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268598167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: where did you define integral
< 1268598177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That site concludes that I am English.
< 1268598184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you did.
< 1268598520 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is oerjan's synchronicity?
< 1268598566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan believes in synchronicity
< 1268598599 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too
< 1268598600 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it?
< 1268598607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1268598621 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google synchronicity
< 1268598633 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, synchronicity?
< 1268598634 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: maybe you shouldn't have mentioned your win by paradox in philosophy? bah, humbug :) don't have that
< 1268598643 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Synchronicity is the experience of two or more events that are apparently causally unrelated occurring together in a meaningful manner. ... \ [14]Description - [15]Examples - [16]Criticisms and possible ...
< 1268598714 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm
< 1268598717 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if F is the integral of f
< 1268598753 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F = integral of f from 0 to n...
< 1268598767 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then F(x+1) > F(x) + f(y)
< 1268598774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may of course be easier to prove directly that C(x,n) is the derivative of C(x,n+1)
< 1268598783 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh I can't this right
< 1268598795 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is that we have T(x) + y
< 1268598801 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and T is the integral of \y.y
< 1268598821 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?hm
< 1268598952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F(x+1) = F(x) + f(x), isn't it? i guess there is an off-by-one choice of where you start things
< 1268599002 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh
< 1268599006 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's right!
< 1268599015 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes so we have to actually prove that f is positive
< 1268599026 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but that's trivial)
< 1268599065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um what are you trying to prove that requires positivity?
< 1268599083 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F is bijective
< 1268599096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268599105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um you mean injective?
< 1268599131 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268599859 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so nice
< 1268599876 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 finite calculus
< 1268599881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1268600831 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1268600923 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow
< 1268601333 0 :adam_d!~Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268601678 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1268602147 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell take 50 . map head . foldr (scanl (+)) undefined $ 0:1:2:repeat 0
< 1268602172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grmbl
< 1268602192 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`daskelab
< 1268602193 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1268602206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print . take 50 . map head . foldr (scanl (+)) undefined $ 0:1:2:repeat 0
< 1268602330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print . take 50 . map head . foldr (scanl (+)) undefined $ (0::Integer):1:2:repeat 0
< 1268602441 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268602455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell main = print . take 50 . foldr (scanl (+)) undefined $ 0:1:2:repeat 0
< 1268602457 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100,121,144,169,196,225,256,289,324,361,400,441,484,529,576,625,676,729,784,841,900,961,1024,1089,1156,1225,1296,1369,1444,1521,1600,1681,1764,1849,1936,2025,2116,2209,2304,2401]
< 1268602546 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks square
< 1268602550 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is
< 1268602603 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's reconstructing x^2 from its iterated differences
< 1268602613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at 0)
< 1268602720 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmm
< 1268602723 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is finite calculus
< 1268602725 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1268602735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; main = print . take 50 $ [comb n 1 ++ 2*comb n 2 | n <- [0..]]
< 1268602738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep
< 1268602746 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit another type error
< 1268602749 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan are you just making this up or is it from something?
< 1268602765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm recalling it
< 1268602774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was some playing around on #haskell
< 1268602779 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long ago
< 1268602834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; main = print [comb n 1 ++ 2*comb n 2 | n <- [0..49]]
< 1268602861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm*
< 1268602865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; main = print [comb n 1 + 2*comb n 2 | n <- [0..49]]
< 1268602868 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100,121,144,169,196,225,256,289,324,361,400,441,484,529,576,625,676,729,784,841,900,961,1024,1089,1156,1225,1296,1369,1444,1521,1600,1681,1764,1849,1936,2025,2116,2209,2304,2401]
< 1268602892 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go, so you can also use the combinator function for the same
< 1268602912 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1268602921 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#haskell knows about finnite calculus???
< 1268602958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically comb x n has all the iterated differences at 0 = 0 except then nth, which is 1
< 1268602984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so given those for any other polynomial, you can just combine linearly
< 1268602988 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the nth
< 1268602997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well some people there do...
< 1268603037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except this rewriting with comb was not from there, just something i recalled from elsewhere
< 1268603057 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1268603065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but taking iterated differences and building them back up was done in #haskell once
< 1268603105 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1268603117 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys
< 1268603255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not null) . iterate diff; main = print . take 50 . diffs $ [comb n 3 | n <- [0..]]
< 1268603281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot get a single one typed right on first try :(
< 1268603296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate diff; main = print . take 50 . diffs $ [comb n 3 | n <- [0..]]
< 1268603298 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,0,0,1,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
< 1268603316 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that 1 there?
< 1268603324 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic
< 1268603326 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax!
< 1268603329 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi augur!
< 1268603340 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268603346 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hows it going faxies
< 1268603353 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im watching twin peaks
< 1268603356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: because comb 0 3 = 0, comb 0 2 = 0, comb 0 1 = 0 but comb 0 0 = 1
< 1268603366 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :twin peaks huh
< 1268603367 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it comb 3 3 = 1?
< 1268603370 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268603561 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fax, ive been thinking
< 1268603569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate diff; rebuild l = foldr (scanl (+)) undefined (l++repeat 0); main = print . take 50 . rebuild . diffs $ [0,1,4]
< 1268603572 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100,121,144,169,196,225,256,289,324,361,400,441,484,529,576,625,676,729,784,841,900,961,1024,1089,1156,1225,1296,1369,1444,1521,1600,1681,1764,1849,1936,2025,2116,2209,2304,2401]
< 1268603576 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there's an interesting class of formal languages worth investigating
< 1268603585 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the linear time parsible ones?
< 1268603594 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1268603596 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more importantly
< 1268603604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: see you can use it to guess which polynomial you have from the first few terms
< 1268603628 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wait it figures out a polynomial from a finte portion of the sequence?
< 1268603632 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones that are transparently representable in simple linear format
< 1268603634 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yep
< 1268603646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you have more terms than the degree of the polynomial, it works
< 1268603662 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate diff; rebuild l = foldr (scanl (+)) undefined (l++repeat 0); main = print . take 50 . rebuild . diffs $
< 1268603670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rebuild could also be written using comb, naturally
< 1268603674 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell comb m n = product [m, m-1 .. m-n+1] `div` product [1..n]; diff l = zipWith (-) (tail l) l; diffs = map head . takeWhile (not . null) . iterate diff; rebuild l = foldr (scanl (+)) undefined (l++repeat 0); main = print . take 50 . rebuild . diffs $ [2,3,5,7,11,13,17]
< 1268603677 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[2,3,5,7,11,13,17,72,332,1139,3129,7361,15469,29837,53797,91850,149910,235571,358397,530235,765551,1081789,1499753,2044012,2743328,3631107,4745873,6131765,7839057,9924701,12452893,15495662,19133482,23455907,28562229,34562159,41576531,49738029,59191937,70096912,82625780,96966355,113322281,131913897,152979125,176774381,203575509,233678738,267401662,305084243]
< 1268603685 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1268603686 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :72 isn't prime :|
< 1268603696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1268603709 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is well known that no polynomial can give only primes
< 1268603726 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268603755 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, even if you count -2, -3 etc as primes -- but I don't know how to prove it
< 1268603756 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok brb
< 1268603775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is presumably the sixth degree polynomial that starts with the given primes first
< 1268603805 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there IS a polynomial which gives the set of primes + a bunch of random negative integers
< 1268603826 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. it is not a polynomial in one variable, though, iirc.
< 1268603853 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a proof in my book (about the not giving only primes thing) but I have been trying to figure it out myself
< 1268603871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok i'll not think about it then :)
< 1268603889 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wont??
< 1268603896 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268603901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not aloud anyway
< 1268603908 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh feel free :)
< 1268603916 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been on it two days and not got it
< 1268603919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually quite trivial
< 1268603958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if p(x) = a_n*x^n + a_(n-1)*x^(n-1) + ... + a_1*x + a_0 is your polynomial
< 1268604000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait
< 1268604024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :choosing x a product of a_0 isn't quite guaranteed
< 1268604064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, except if it's _large_ enough, it has to be different from a_0 itself
< 1268604085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that shows it
< 1268604101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a_0 is 0, just choose x to be any non-prime
< 1268604118 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268604207 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't undersatnd :/
< 1268604215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as x -> infinity, so does the polynomial
< 1268604215 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's meant to be for multivariate ones too
< 1268604219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268604233 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are infinite primes
< 1268604241 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not sure of that proof
< 1268604278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if you choose x divisible by a_0, then p(x) is divisible by a_0, so not a prime unless it is equal to a_0. if x is large enough that cannot happen.
< 1268604290 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I give up on proofs they are always SO OBVIOUS it makes me annoyed
< 1268604318 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh that is clever!
< 1268604333 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268604341 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would guess something similar works for multivariate polynomials too, they can still have only one constant term after all
< 1268604359 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't really understand it
< 1268604379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(choose _all_ the variables divisible by the constant term)
< 1268604381 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is a (26 variable) polynomial whos positive values are all primes
< 1268604404 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yeah but i've not proved that p(x) cannot be negative
< 1268604427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only that it cannot be a positive prime
< 1268604465 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;S
< 1268604475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh?
< 1268604482 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :p(x) can be prime
< 1268604494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cannot always
< 1268604522 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oerjan doesn't that contradict the 26-var polynomial?
< 1268604586 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is you can have negative coefficents too
< 1268604588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no! if you choose all variables divisible by the constant term, you probably force the polynomial to be negative
< 1268604598 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm
< 1268604646 0 :songhead95!~jay@c-71-232-230-180.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268604677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1268604691 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, if I knew a better place to discuss this I would, but this seems like a good place.
< 1268604701 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of designing an esoteric operating system.
< 1268604711 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Based on Super Mario Bros.
< 1268604744 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh really now?
< 1268604748 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :es
< 1268604749 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268604751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION carefully scuttles away from the madman :D
< 1268604751 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :expound please
< 1268604758 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you go down tubes to enter programs
< 1268604804 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on another part of the screen is another mario, in an array of blocks with different QWERTY keyboard keys on them, and when you hit a block, the keystroke is injected
< 1268604816 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the keyboard is two NES controllers
< 1268604822 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something
< 1268604860 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what if the constant is prime?
< 1268605031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's why you need to make the other variables large enough that the polynomial cannot be that value
< 1268605054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only something divisible by it
< 1268605070 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right!
< 1268605095 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a physically transversable OS environment
< 1268605125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose if you have more than one variable you need to take care somehow that their largeness doesn't cancel out
< 1268605149 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1268605171 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you make a nonzero multivariate polynomial whos absolute value is always below some constant
< 1268605176 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonconstant*
< 1268605183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i doubt it
< 1268605234 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first, you only need to look at the terms of largest degree (the others will vanish in comparison in the limit)
< 1268605255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if there is more than one such term they might cancel
< 1268605268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^m y^n - x^n y^m say
< 1268605271 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1268605326 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, you can start by looking at the variable with largest term alone
< 1268605340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x^n * something in the other variables
< 1268605355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that something is not 0, then you only need to blow up x
< 1268605464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right and we can use induction to choose the other variables such that it is not zero :D
< 1268605494 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268605496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that something is after all a polynomial in the remaining variables, one variable less
< 1268605501 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O HAI
< 1268605515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so by induction we can make it nonzero (in fact as large as we wish)
< 1268605525 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow
< 1268605559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and after we've done that the other variables are fixed, even if large, so we can blow up x even more
< 1268605574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*possibly large
< 1268605638 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any sites dedicated to esoteric operating systems?
< 1268605667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :songhead95: afaik there is only one community for all things esoteric, and you are there
< 1268605692 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k kool
< 1268605699 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see also our wiki
< 1268605703 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolangs?
< 1268605706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1268605713 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seen, and contributed
< 1268605723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right
< 1268605741 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have my own language :]
< 1268605756 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I was better at this myself :D
< 1268605765 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there might be some other sites for specific things (lolcode?) with "mass appeal"
< 1268605787 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note lolcode is considered too vanilla here, or something :) )
< 1268605834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course there are sites of individual esolangers.
< 1268605872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so fax
< 1268605876 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets try to work on this :o
< 1268605889 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatcha talkin bout?
< 1268605913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know what augur is talking about
< 1268605931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wasnt talkting to oerjan so it doesnt matter :D
< 1268605936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho oerjan
< 1268605939 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what im talking about
< 1268605947 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur what exactly
< 1268605954 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought fax was talking to me, so i don't understand what "this" you would be referring to
< 1268605962 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was
< 1268605968 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a class of formal languages that can be compactedly expressed in a regular expression like form
< 1268605973 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok then...
< 1268606052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: and you joined after songhead95 so i was assuming you weren't referring to his project
< 1268606065 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1268606151 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh that more than CF thing i briefly saw you mention?
< 1268606177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of. there seems to be a class of languages which cut across various levels
< 1268606192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linear time, you said
< 1268606202 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can be parsed in linear time and which have the convenient property of being describably in compact, Regex-like form
< 1268606203 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you are talking about augur
< 1268606211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, they are all context sensitive, since that includes everything linear _space_
< 1268606213 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :point free
< 1268606216 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1268606242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i dont know if they're all CS
< 1268606259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know much about them, i dont think they're a previously investigated class
< 1268606296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i vaguely recall somewhere reading that there aren't any concrete examples (at least not naturally occuring) of CF languages not parsable in linear time if you can walk around in the string, or something like that
< 1268606305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1268606329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's just an observation from the known fact that CS languages == languages parsable in linear space
< 1268606340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and linear time is a subset of linear space
< 1268606352 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok.
< 1268606365 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway
< 1268606385 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language a^n b^n c^n is classically non-CF but its lineartime and obviously regexlike
< 1268606410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you could just use that like the regex. or using standardish notation, a{n}b{n}c{n}
< 1268606415 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats completely linear time
< 1268606422 0 :songhead95!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :?
< 1268606427 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, a{n}b{n}c{n}d{n}... etc
< 1268606436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1268606443 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REGEX + numbers?
< 1268606444 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact, for _arbitrary different powers, in _arbitrary_ orders
< 1268606450 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponentiation
< 1268606457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not just exponentiation
< 1268606464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linked exponentiation
< 1268606484 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even classically hard linguistic phenomena like cross-serial dependencies are possible
< 1268606496 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a^m b^n c^m d^n
< 1268606497 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you can't parse stuff like (a{n}){m} in linear time?
< 1268606507 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not.
< 1268606518 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think that is the compliment of primes?)
< 1268606524 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unary
< 1268606532 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, (a^m)^n might be. it depends on your interpretation of that, right
< 1268606554 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, you could interpret that the following two ways
< 1268606568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hm you'd have to be able to do a prime check on mn in time O(mn), that sounds doable
< 1268606582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats either a^(m*n), so just a^m
< 1268606627 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR you could interpret that as a^(m_0) a^(m_1) ... a^(m_n) for different m's each time
< 1268606630 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right you need m,n>=2. but i assume that's easy to rephrase.
< 1268606638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is i suppose also just a^m
< 1268606661 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need multiple symbols to get intrigue
< 1268606668 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a^m b^m)^n
< 1268606680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: make it (a^m)^n a^m a^n a
< 1268606685 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that
< 1268606686 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 619 seconds
< 1268606696 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know if those are linear time
< 1268606716 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but importantly, they're conveniently trivial to represent
< 1268606724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i think they are. you can store the numbers you've counted in binary, after all
< 1268606739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so arithmetic is likely much _less_ than linear in the whole thing
< 1268606748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, i think a^(m*n) a^m a^n a is probably not complicated
< 1268606752 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might even be CF
< 1268606773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: it's a^((m+1)*(n+1))
< 1268606786 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see
< 1268606798 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh
< 1268606800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok if m, n can be zero we've still got nowhere
< 1268606807 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can put arbitrary polynomials like this?
< 1268606812 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^(P(x,y,z,w))
< 1268606826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well but see then the question is whether or not P is valid in that, right
< 1268606828 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can be unary representation of any recursive set :P
< 1268606846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because arguably, { p(w) : w in {a,b}* }
< 1268606848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if we can nest (a^m)^n it's just a matter of expanding the polynomial back using the distributive law
< 1268606851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where p is the permute function
< 1268606855 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is linear time
< 1268606866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language is just the Bach/MIX language
< 1268606899 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but permutation seems to be a valid thing to have in such a simple notation
< 1268606912 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it?
< 1268606931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, this is what im not sure about.
< 1268606978 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even _if_ such a thing were accepted, tho, i dont think the grammar for, say, simple math expressions, would be expressable.
< 1268607014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. exp -> 0 | ... | 9 | (exp op exp) ; op -> + | - | * | /
< 1268607030 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i just said that polynomials can be expanded. a^(p(...)+q(...)) = a^p(...) a^q(...) etc.
< 1268607031 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268607054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im pretty sure that thats not possible to describe with the sort of transparent stuff we're talking about, so.
< 1268607082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if you have (a^m)^n, then you have all you need to expand things
< 1268607092 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to what now?
< 1268607098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to _that_
< 1268607105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont follow
< 1268607161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a^(m^2 + m*n + 2*n) = (a^m)^m (a^m)^n a^n a^n
< 1268607180 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, right
< 1268607193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the question was wheat power is required for the (a^m)^n part
< 1268607249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: well i'm pretty sure (a^m)^n _alone_ can be parsed in linear time, even with m, n >= 2 restriction. whether it can be combined with other things is another matter.
< 1268607262 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1268607284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact given we just mentioned that 26-variable polynomial giving the primes, we might have some trouble :D
< 1268607306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh that has negative coefficients. those might be trouble in themselves.
< 1268607333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably.
< 1268607379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im curious tho precisely what the computational class of these things are
< 1268607384 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because theyre not the CS languages
< 1268607389 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur of what?
< 1268607449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah we haven't got the precise definition yet
< 1268607486 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets say of languages describable using just the regular processes (e.g. |, ?, +, *, concateenation, subtraction)
< 1268607495 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus coindexed exponentiation, say
< 1268607524 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coindexed? :(
< 1268607530 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^n b^n
< 1268607530 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that like variables numbers only
< 1268607537 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm okay
< 1268607548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: and that is the class you've heard is linear time?
< 1268607550 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where you share the exponent
< 1268607563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that is the class that im interested in, which i suspect might be linear time
< 1268607567 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exponents can be just single variables, then?
< 1268607581 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it seems to be a trivial addition to regular expressions that let them handle INCREDIBLY non-regular languages
< 1268607585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh i thought this was some known class you were referring to?
< 1268607591 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1268607597 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats why im interested in them
< 1268607603 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im fairly certain theyre _not_ known
< 1268607611 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this language AUG is equivalent to having {n+3} type indices, because you can just expand them out
< 1268607619 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p
< 1268607628 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres also another class you might imagine
< 1268607631 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can also multiply them, because (X{a}){b} = X{a*b}
< 1268607638 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regular languages + stack operations
< 1268607657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. i am now suspecting things might get hairy (possibly nonlinear) if you allow exponents to nest
< 1268607665 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you had a global stack, you can push and pop to the stack each time you read something of a certain nature
< 1268607676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of having all those polynomials
< 1268607681 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't lik stacks :(
< 1268607713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. lets say that {+x} means push x, and {-x} means pop x, then a{+x}*b{-x}* i think would generate a^n b^n
< 1268607744 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so thats basically a*b* but each time you read an a you push an x to the stack, and each time you read a b you pop an x from the stack
< 1268607782 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the language is recognized if the whole string is consumed, the stack ends up empty, and at no point do you fail to be able to pop a symbol
< 1268607787 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need to pop it.
< 1268607870 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268607956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh food ->
< 1268607956 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that would generate a similar class of languages but not the _same_ class
< 1268607967 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, if you had named stacks, you could do
< 1268608007 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a{a+x}*b{b+x}*c{a-x}*d{b-x}*
< 1268608023 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where a{a+x} pushes an x to the stack named a
< 1268608024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1268608072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would generate the language a^m b^n c^m d^n but using that you couldnt get one extra exponent to m at the end
< 1268608076 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the a stack would be empty
< 1268608084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you could push to multiple stacks who knows!
< 1268608143 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a{a+x,b+x}*b{a-x}*c{b-x} which i think would generate a^m a^n b^n c^m
< 1268608148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is trivially CF
< 1268608163 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could use that interestingly
< 1268608473 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1268608643 0 :kwertii!~kwertii@ResNet-35-132.resnet.ucsb.edu JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268608705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that stack thing is at least in NP... since you can always guess
< 1268608741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm
< 1268608759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have multiple stacks then you can copy them
< 1268608780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{-x}{+y}{+y}
< 1268608853 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a suspicion that might give you a minsky machine - something TC, definitely not linear
< 1268608881 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm i dont know
< 1268608898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er
< 1268608917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* {a-x}{b+x}{c+x}
< 1268608919 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, look, ignoring the time it takes to do stack operations, which is roughly constant because you're at most pushing or popping form all stacks
< 1268608930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each symbol takes constant time to recognize
< 1268608942 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but backtracking
< 1268608948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no backtracking
< 1268608966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deterministic processes
< 1268608977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. i dont know. :p
< 1268608982 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;D
< 1268608999 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, this is sort of where the extras fuck you up, right
< 1268609000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: oh this minsky machine thing is not about symbols at all. you could do TC computation without reading a single symbol, once you have filled the stacks from your input
< 1268609027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1268609036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1268609071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess the real question is, what is an interesting subset of these languages
< 1268609083 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can only use a single global stack, is that interesting?
< 1268609098 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a global stack with only one symbol, eg its an integer register?
< 1268609108 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about multiple integer registers? etc.
< 1268609128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple integer registers no, since that's all you use for minsky machines anyway
< 1268609134 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1268609186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my implementation for the exponent language just has integer registers which necessarily reset to their fullest just prior to transitioning to a symbol that pops from it.
< 1268609196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two global stacks, um now we are dangerously close to a brainfuck tape...
< 1268609215 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. a^n b^n c^n pushes n times, then transitions to another stack, pops n times, then resets, and transitions and pops n times again
< 1268609234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i think the crucial thing is that theres some transparency between the symbols and the string, right
< 1268609260 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: you said something about determinism, that's rather different from regexes...
< 1268609273 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was maaaaybe saying you have deterministic processes
< 1268609300 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do the majority of regexes deterministically, modulo the non-regular processes
< 1268609321 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know if you could do this deterministically. probably not.
< 1268609349 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a^m a^n b^m c^n will i think be potentially problematic
< 1268609361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. aaabbc vs aaabcc
< 1268609380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you'll need some arithmetic at least, not just a stack machine
< 1268609396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no, you dont need arithmetic
< 1268609416 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean to parse in linear time
< 1268609418 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd just need backtracking to branch off when you change from incrementing m to incrementing n
< 1268609426 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that probably isnt linear time
< 1268609448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^m a^n b^m c^n pretty obviously can be parsed in linear time
< 1268609464 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it IS just a^n a^m b^m c^n
< 1268609469 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so its a simple CF language
< 1268609477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i guess it is indeed linear time
< 1268609484 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it CAN but actually doing it in a general way seems like a difficult problem to me
< 1268609487 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but getting a linear time stack machine
< 1268609495 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :state* machine
< 1268609502 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I mean you just parse a^x then b^m and then c^(x-m)
< 1268609509 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but figuring that out in linear time ?
< 1268609512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't allow nested exponents, then maybe it is possible. would require some integer linear equations i think
< 1268609514 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, if you could do the arithmetic then sure.
< 1268609532 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... I wonder if this way, we might introduce subtraction :))))
< 1268609537 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again, you'd build state machines for each thing, right
< 1268609540 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then reach full recursive sets
< 1268609552 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'd be given the expression /a{m}a{n}b{m}c{n}/
< 1268609602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd just do some arithmomagic internally to turn that into /a{x}b{x-n}c{x-m}/ where the second exponents are calculated once you transition away form the last a
< 1268609618 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah that would do it, you're right
< 1268609626 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but remember we have multiplication and addition of constants
< 1268609632 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is getting a bit wild
< 1268609636 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats ok
< 1268609647 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think having simple math is a problem
< 1268609660 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm much more doubtful if we have multiplication
< 1268609664 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /a{n}b{2*n}/ should be a valid expression
< 1268609668 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simle math? :)))
< 1268609677 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur diophantine equations are recursive
< 1268609678 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as should /a{m}b{n}c{m*n}/
< 1268609683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i'm not sure even with linear stuff
< 1268609684 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilberts 10th
< 1268609714 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps!
< 1268609714 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but
< 1268609715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: there is a limitation in that we have a finite string to parse
< 1268609738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we cannot get arbitrarily large numbers for parsing a given string
< 1268609744 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm
< 1268609754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on what simplicity we allow. is there a way to get /a{x}b{some recursive equation dependent on x}/?
< 1268609759 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you are right, that puts a strong limitation on it
< 1268609815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, sure, diophantine equations are recursive
< 1268609823 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but do we need to _solve_ them or just compute a value with one
< 1268609833 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*nod*
< 1268609877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if we have, say, /a{x}b{y}c{3x + 5y}/ you have, _roughly_, a diophantine equation. or at least part of one
< 1268609877 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in principle we could just go through all possible values of the exponents and test each combination in turn. i don't think that gives linear time though :D
< 1268609883 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268609884 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're not solving for x and y, you're _given_ x and y
< 1268609885 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1268609893 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so all you need to so is compute 3x + 5y
< 1268609896 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that proves it's subturing
< 1268609929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, maybe there ARE cases where we'd need to solve for it, i dont know
< 1268609948 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somewhere with like /...a{x}...b{y}.../
< 1268609966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where x and y are determined according to a diophantine equation
< 1268610006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /a{3x + 2y}b{x}c{y}/
< 1268610014 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe?
< 1268610099 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but surely not, because thats refactorable. /a{z}b{z - 2y}c{y}/ => /a{z}b{w}c{z/2 + w/2}/
< 1268610116 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont think we'd ever have to _solve_ diphantines.
< 1268610160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever. i think i did that wrong.
< 1268610160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... actually i think we must, but not necessarily hard ones
< 1268610166 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example?
< 1268610223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^{x+y} b^{2y+3z} c^{y+z}
< 1268610267 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait
< 1268610275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* a^{x+y} b^{2y+3z} c^{x+z}
< 1268610278 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh
< 1268610368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* /a{x+y}b{2y+3z}c{x+z}/
< 1268610393 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^(x+y) b^(2y+3x) c^(x+z) = a^w b^(2w + x) c^(x+z) = a^w b^q c^(q - 2w + z)
< 1268610421 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := a^w b^q c^(q - 2w) c*
< 1268610454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you dont have to _solve_ a diophantine equation
< 1268610483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that you have to check that the original x,y, and z become positive integers
< 1268610496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or nonnegative
< 1268610509 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you just calculate q - 2w on the fly
< 1268610513 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if its negative you fail
< 1268610523 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no, you dont, right
< 1268610526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my example was, however, too simple
< 1268610544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if its negative, since you have + z, q - 2w + z can be any number
< 1268610563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so this is technically the language a*b*c*!
< 1268610604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/a{2x+3y}b{5y+2z}c{7z+11w}/
< 1268610616 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1268610618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_now_ you're bloody going to have to solve something
< 1268610655 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aa{x}aaa{y}bbbbb{y}bb{z}ccccccc{z}ccccccccccc{w}
< 1268610674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forgot that for awkward linear integer equations, you need more variables than equations
< 1268610741 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := a{w}b{w/3-2x/3}c{7z+11w} = a{w}b{q}c{7z+33q+6x}}
< 1268610791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := a{w}b{q}c{33q + n} = a{w}b{q}c{n} = a*b*c*
< 1268610799 0 :alise!~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268610810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: and are you _really_ sure all of those correspond to x,y,z,w nonnegative originally?
< 1268610815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt matter
< 1268610826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember to update the alise sighting counter over the next week...
< 1268610835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, most of you guys don't know. Unit again... yeah.
< 1268610836 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: _false_. there is no way you can get c, say
< 1268610837 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye alise ::hug::
< 1268610849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3
< 1268610866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: take care
< 1268610873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sure there is, because it contains a free variable (w), c{7z + 11w} is c*
< 1268610877 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see you
< 1268610887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I can't take care of myself, I'm dysfunctional! That's why I'm there! ;-)
< 1268610895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not in the form you give it, but in the equivalent form it does
< 1268610900 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think.
< 1268610910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: c is not a string parsed by my original form, that's the _point_
< 1268610917 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what
< 1268610937 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean its not a string parsed by your original form
< 1268610959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c is not a member of the language /a{2x+3y}b{5y+2z}c{7z+11w}/
< 1268610977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you damn well cannot get 1 = 7z+11w for nonnegative z,w
< 1268610979 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok. ok then lets see
< 1268611011 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er
< 1268611020 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly
< 1268611025 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see
< 1268611029 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get c
< 1268611042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x = 0, y = 0, z = 0
< 1268611047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:30:34 fax: maybe you shouldn't have mentioned your win by paradox in philosophy? bah, humbug :) don't have that
< 1268611048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha
< 1268611054 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a{2x + 3y} = a{0}
< 1268611063 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and b{5y + 2z} = 0
< 1268611063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, augur, it's _obvious_ you cannot get c
< 1268611073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :win by paradox /is/ pretty philosophically dodgy
< 1268611091 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot get anything strictly between 0 and 7
< 1268611091 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore you'd have to generate c{11w} = c
< 1268611101 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes. indeed you are correct.
< 1268611129 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan,
< 1268611132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd get c^(11n)
< 1268611142 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for n in Z
< 1268611169 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but again, oerjan, i dont think this would be an issue
< 1268611177 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it doesnt involve _solving_ a diophanting
< 1268611177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:51:16 <3 finite calculus
< 1268611177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like arithmetic but cooler!
< 1268611182 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in my book is says assume P(x1,...,xm) only takes prime values, then let p = |P(1,...,1)| and consider Q(y1,...,ym)=P(py1+1,...pym+1)
< 1268611186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :diophanting sounds like an awesome sexual act
< 1268611189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;)
< 1268611196 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION diophants alise