< 1268611249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it says that Q(y1,...,ym) = P(1,...,1) = 0 (mod p), hence Q(y1,...,ym) = +/- p is Q is constant and so is P
< 1268611371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what's the abstract algorithm for finite integrals?
< 1268611373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I can J it up
< 1268611436 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't know what you mean.. symbolic antidifferentiation?
< 1268611544 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268611562 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for definite integral you can just sum up the values
< 1268611564 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's finite!
< 1268611598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your sigma definition in al-jabr looked all higher order
< 1268611630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should do integrals as an adverb: so I get the derivative function, and two arguments
< 1268611634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's all
< 1268611701 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: its linear time tho.
< 1268611708 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you again dont have to _solve the linear equation
< 1268611716 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i did my math wrong before
< 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixpoint Sigma n a f :=
< 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match n with
< 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | O => 0
< 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | S n => f a + Sigma n (a + 1) f
< 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end.
< 1268611718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition Discrete_Definite_Integral a b f :=
< 1268611719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : match b - a with
< 1268611719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | Zpos p => Sigma (nat_of_P p) a f
< 1268611720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | _ => 0
< 1268611720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end.
< 1268611723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this just because Coq sucks at recursion?
< 1268611726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry for the flood.)
< 1268611737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With J it should be a cinch, since it is awesome at arrays.
< 1268611743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a simpler general recursive definition?
< 1268611754 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially you can refactor the expression into a{6x}b{2y}c{5x-y-z}
< 1268611755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've no idea what nat_of_P is for starters.
< 1268611761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z -> N?
< 1268611809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a (f integ) b, we do b - a, if it's negative then 0, otherwise...
< 1268611814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? Sigma n recurses indefinitely.
< 1268611822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't really work.
< 1268611827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so you just recognize 6x a's and, 2y b's, and for each, determine what x and y are, and if they're not integers, fail.
< 1268611866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: is this some magic?
< 1268611874 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm?
< 1268611886 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sigma is that normal big-summation thing
< 1268611908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: if you are right, it only means i was not clever enough with my example - it should be possible to find one where the original variables are _not_ determined by the string parsed
< 1268611916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it decomposes n into n
< 1268611920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's confusing, call it n' or something
< 1268611940 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: im not sure if that even makes any sense
< 1268611943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was my point with using more variables than equations in the first place
< 1268611947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so Sigma n a f = sum (map (\_ -> f a) [0..n])
< 1268611956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 to n inclusive? Yes.
< 1268611960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait
< 1268611962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ... hm
< 1268611970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just multiplication fax
< 1268611976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait no it's not
< 1268611981 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if the variables range over Z, and exponents range over Z, then obviously we can just refactor and if at any more one of them fails to do so, we're done
< 1268611986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sum (map f [1..n])
< 1268611988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right?
< 1268611990 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're still not _solving_ diophantines
< 1268612004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, holy fuck i have hand sanitizier that smells EXACTLY like pot
< 1268612020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's actually pot that works like hand sanitiser
< 1268612025 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: the variables range over N
< 1268612044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be obvious, since you don't have negative length string
< 1268612045 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*s
< 1268612048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Sigma n a f = sum (map f [1..n]) right? Just getting the range right
< 1268612052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the exponents, at least.
< 1268612067 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, theres no harm in ranging the variables over Z, so long as the exponents are always N
< 1268612085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: my notation is simply meant as an abbreviation for expanding the sums out
< 1268612113 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise yeah
< 1268612114 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you had some expression a{m}b{n}c{m-n} and you tried to recognize abb..., you would calculate that you need 2-3 = -1 c's
< 1268612121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which fails immediately because its a negative exponent
< 1268612180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x) > 0 do. +/ v (x+i. (y-x)) else. 0 end.
< 1268612185 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: the thing is that with sufficiently complicated linear equations, you can get into trouble determining whether any of the several solutions is a natural number. in fact even integers might give enough trouble.
< 1268612245 0 :alise_!~alise@genld-216-040.t-mobile.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268612245 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but theres no harm in letting the variables range over Z, because itll just force things to be refactored. e.g. a{m}b{n}c{m-n} is just a{m+n}b{m}c{n}
< 1268612253 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ok right gimme an example to test integ
< 1268612263 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: but these arent EQUATIONS
< 1268612266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats the point, right
< 1268612280 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're really just sums
< 1268612294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i am talking about the equations i'm trying to turn into examples that show you that you cannot get away with not solving them :D
< 1268612297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, if you did lets say
< 1268612339 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: plz
< 1268612358 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you had something like a{x^2 + y^2}b{x}c{y}
< 1268612363 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no even that
< 1268612384 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so this is my understanding of integrate
< 1268612387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your def
< 1268612417 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: im failing to see any situation where it actually _is_ a problem
< 1268612430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integ f x y | y-x > 0 = sum (map f [(y-x)..(i-1)])
< 1268612432 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| otherwise = 0
< 1268612433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1268612439 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where [m..n] is [m,m+1,...,n-1,n]
< 1268612443 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: isthis right?
< 1268612446 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is this
< 1268612477 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello
< 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 integ f x y | y-x > 0 = sum (map f [(y-x)..(i-1)])
< 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 | otherwise = 0
< 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 * alise (~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
< 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 where [m..n] is [m,m+1,...,n-1,n]
< 1268612551 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that your def?
< 1268612557 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm
< 1268612571 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 integ f x y | y-x > 0 = sum (map f [x..(y-x)])
< 1268612572 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 | otherwise = 0
< 1268612572 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 * alise (~alise@genld-216-213.t-mobile.co.uk) Quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
< 1268612572 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :23:20 where [m..n] is [m,m+1,...,n-1,n]
< 1268612573 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not right...
< 1268612602 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise use the paper instead of my code!
< 1268612603 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so we loop (y-x) times, first value to the function is x
< 1268612608 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's much clearer, and all my stuff is copying it exactly
< 1268612610 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no :)
< 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so
< 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.(y-x)
< 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yields a list starting at 0 of (y-x) in length
< 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x + i. (y-x)
< 1268612633 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that's right
< 1268612634 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then we u on it
< 1268612634 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and +/
< 1268612636 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x)>0 do. +/u x+i.y-x else. 0 end.
< 1268612642 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is right, so why do i get domain errors
< 1268612650 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1268612653 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehh just gimme a dead simple example to test :))
< 1268612690 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 (id integ) 4
< 1268612690 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|domain error
< 1268612690 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| 3 (id integ)4
< 1268612692 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no damn reason for that
< 1268612693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example of waht?
< 1268612697 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-20-163.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268612698 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your finite integ
< 1268612717 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: what about /a{256*x}a{3*y}b{y}b{256*z}/
< 1268612718 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's going on?
< 1268612731 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok seriously my definition is right
< 1268612733 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myabe the if is the problem
< 1268612749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oejan, what about it?
< 1268612749 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(trying to find an example based on the brainfuck constant algorithm trickeries
< 1268612750 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope
< 1268612753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268612763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: can you refactor that?
< 1268612772 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recognize some number of a's, divide by 256, if thats not an int, fail
< 1268612776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see
< 1268612779 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh my lets see :x
< 1268612801 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"integ f x y | y-x > 0 = sum (map f [x..(y-x)])" <<< you go from x to y-x? so y's like 2x+offset?
< 1268612809 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean not that i have any idea what that's about
< 1268612877 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite integration
< 1268612881 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my j definition is breaking
< 1268612882 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix it :)
< 1268612903 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integ =: adverb define
< 1268612904 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x)>0 do. +/u x+i.y-x else. 0 end.
< 1268612904 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268613000 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, first, w must be a multiple of 3
< 1268613005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew
< 1268613008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er
< 1268613015 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number of a's must be a multiple of 3
< 1268613023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: incorrect
< 1268613027 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, correct
< 1268613032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, incorrect
< 1268613032 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION downloads j
< 1268613036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan
< 1268613048 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is correct
< 1268613051 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let me prove to you why
< 1268613052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 is not divisible by 3
< 1268613057 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: good idea, watch out for the installer it fucks your home directory (ok well adds a directory or two to it)
< 1268613061 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is irrelevant to the point
< 1268613066 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can specify a different dir but make sure you can write in it
< 1268613066 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is not used anywhere else
< 1268613068 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: how do you apply an adverb? :P
< 1268613072 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be quiet, oerjan
< 1268613073 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and listen
< 1268613098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: no it is not, you can add 256 a's to any solution and get a new one, which is not a multiple of 3 if the original is
< 1268613104 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^(256x + 3y) b^(y + 256x) = a^w b^(w/3 - 256x - 256w)
< 1268613118 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION realizes how much I have forgotten when given a blank window
< 1268613135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, 256x/3
< 1268613135 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268613147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- 256z
< 1268613148 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268613148 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not w
< 1268613149 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry.
< 1268613177 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: how do i apply that to a function and two data arguments?
< 1268613191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^w b^(w/3 - 256x/3 - 256z)
< 1268613200 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't just do "x function integ y"
< 1268613203 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: x (func integ) y
< 1268613207 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh.
< 1268613207 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :produces a domain error, helpfully
< 1268613209 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can huh
< 1268613213 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no matter what you plug in
< 1268613223 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay, is that the problem?
< 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: lol
< 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its just like x +/ y
< 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it's
< 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's its pal deriv
< 1268613233 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : deriv =: adverb define
< 1268613234 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :u (y+1) - u y
< 1268613234 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268613235 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one actually works
< 1268613247 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you might be right actually :)
< 1268613258 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly
< 1268613259 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: what that integ produces a domain error all the time?
< 1268613268 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. i don't think the algorithm-if-it-worked has been translated incorrectly
< 1268613281 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: i thought there had to be special syntax for when it's letters and not operator letters, exactly because it produced a domain error
< 1268613292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, (foo deriv) x works so
< 1268613295 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then again why would that give me a domain error
< 1268613299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well exactly
< 1268613310 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j comes with a debugger, I think i'll try that
< 1268613324 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking hell what's the identity
< 1268613340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i can find it lol
< 1268613383 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id v 3 : (,'y')
< 1268613389 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is ... not helpful
< 1268613403 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah what the FUCK
< 1268613417 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1268613417 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id =: monad : 'x' -- this is wrong
< 1268613421 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id =: monad : 'y' -- this works
< 1268613428 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1268613430 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1268613431 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because
< 1268613434 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(x u y)
< 1268613435 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is application
< 1268613439 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :???
< 1268613440 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so (u y) is just a simplified form of that
< 1268613442 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268613450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember everything is infix even things that aren't :))
< 1268613461 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also often this is a nicer syntax for definitions:
< 1268613465 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id =: monad define
< 1268613465 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y
< 1268613465 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268613470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :longer ones anyway
< 1268613481 0 :cheater2!~cheater@ip-80-226-27-206.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268613484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specially ones with strings :)
< 1268613490 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so if we accept that this might be tricky, how can we make it trivial
< 1268613495 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you might be right about needing special syntax for the dyadic adverb case
< 1268613498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eliminating addition would do it
< 1268613514 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atleast, variable addition
< 1268613533 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a{2x+3} is fine, but a{2x+y} is not
< 1268613534 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a hint is it doesn't work no matter what the code in the body is
< 1268613535 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise? +/ f a + i. b
< 1268613538 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this seems to work
< 1268613540 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike verbs, adverbs and conjunctions have fixed valence: an adverb is monadic (applying to a single argument to its left), and a conjunction is dyadic.
< 1268613542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the call gives a domain error
< 1268613542 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh
< 1268613545 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i need a conjunction!
< 1268613551 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: so each character can only be used with one variable?
< 1268613555 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sum f mapped over the range a to b
< 1268613563 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeppp i need a conjunction i think
< 1268613605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 (id integ) 4
< 1268613605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|ill-formed name: ?
< 1268613605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| ({."1 wdq) =:wd_val
< 1268613605 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat.
< 1268613607 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, no that would be stupid
< 1268613608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: after all you'll also have to disallow a{2x}a{y}
< 1268613608 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right
< 1268613617 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: why conjunction? it just takes one verb
< 1268613623 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one function
< 1268613625 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right
< 1268613628 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then wtf is up :)
< 1268613647 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well dunno, do adverbs actually get to talk about the parameters the resulting verb is called with?
< 1268613652 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x and y
< 1268613658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, but oerjan, here's the good thing at least, right
< 1268613661 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, i don't actually remember pretty much any syntax...
< 1268613666 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan did you se the proof about primes?
< 1268613669 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they do
< 1268613671 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why deriv works :-)
< 1268613675 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm right
< 1268613677 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a^256x a^3y b^y b^256z is surely linear time, right
< 1268613680 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wrote the one from the book out
< 1268613689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the one with P(1,1,...,1) ? yes
< 1268613711 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay
< 1268613713 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats just (a...)^x (aaa)^y b^y (b...)^z
< 1268613758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would have minimal amounts of backtracking
< 1268613825 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mail-archive.com/general@jsoftware.com/msg04062.html
< 1268613828 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may be a monadic/dyadic issue???
< 1268613832 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: if it's any consolation, your deriv is wrong
< 1268613840 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oklopol
< 1268613844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi faxie
< 1268613853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if we didnt solve the simple diophantines, but instead had some amount of backtracking, it wouldnt be _too_ bad i think
< 1268613856 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (id integ) 4
< 1268613856 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|value error: x
< 1268613856 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| +/u x+i.y- x
< 1268613860 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's at least helpful
< 1268613862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: mind you the diophantine equation in that particular case is not _that_ hard to solve. in fact i think several optimizing brainfuck compilers do it :D
< 1268613866 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, do you know about this bijection between N^2 and N!
< 1268613876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in essence)
< 1268613878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes
< 1268613884 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : f(x,y) = (x^2+y^2+x+2xy+3y)/2
< 1268613891 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well maybe not that one
< 1268613895 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's so beautiful
< 1268613896 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right, im just saying we dont have to solve them we could ust do something else
< 1268613901 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan proved it in like 1 second
< 1268613965 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i think if there is more than two variables for a given char, your backtracking could easily be quadratic etc.
< 1268613969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are
< 1268613969 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh he did now
< 1268613978 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mathematical fields always permit further division."
< 1268613982 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't know that C(n,k) is the n'th k-dimensional pyramid
< 1268613990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: mind you i guessed it was a basic idea i already knew about
< 1268613997 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hm. ok so then we dont have linear time
< 1268614005 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how do you prove it?
< 1268614008 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im partially ok with that, actually
< 1268614012 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My wit i sunmatched.
< 1268614017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean one second sort of implies it's not some boring algebra
< 1268614026 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is unmatched
< 1268614039 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im more interested in the class of languages that is representable in such a simple fashion
< 1268614044 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the parse complexity isnt a huge issue
< 1268614052 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i didn't know that either, n'th as in of height n?
< 1268614059 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n'th in the sequence
< 1268614074 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example nC2 = n(n-1)/2 triangular numbers
< 1268614078 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tho the linear time subset of those is itself interesting
< 1268614086 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: FIX IT :|
< 1268614089 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in the sequence"?
< 1268614093 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: fix what?
< 1268614096 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,3,6,10,15,...
< 1268614098 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the derivative is trivial to fix
< 1268614106 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the deriv isn't broken.
< 1268614109 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well i see
< 1268614113 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, the really amazing bit is that the the FINITE INTEGRAL of nCk is nCk+1
< 1268614141 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which explains why it's a bijection)
< 1268614142 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah finite integration and falling powers are pals
< 1268614147 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268614169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this generalizes too
< 1268614178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wait what do we see why f is a bijection now?
< 1268614182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see.
< 1268614183 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :` =: adverb : 'u (y+1) - u y' NB. now I just need a fancy symbol for my broken integration
< 1268614184 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1268614193 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, well if we are at T(3) = 6,
< 1268614202 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can add 1, 2, or 3, until we hit T(4)
< 1268614217 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: so what's ] deriv 1
< 1268614227 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 - 1 = 1
< 1268614230 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is a bijection between N and (x,y) : NxN where y < x
< 1268614286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: ] deriv 1 results in 1. why
< 1268614288 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: f(x,y) = (x+y)C2 + y iirc
< 1268614299 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's exactly fax's def so...
< 1268614332 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aw ` isn't a valid name
< 1268614358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: oh sorry, ] doesn't show the problem
< 1268614366 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but try say +: deriv 6
< 1268614382 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can just shift it over to make the full bijection
< 1268614386 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :skew
< 1268614390 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the derivative of +: is constant 2
< 1268614421 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah, okay that's cool
< 1268614422 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then fax's definition must suffer from the same problem
< 1268614427 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because his is exactly the same
< 1268614431 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where's fax's definition?
< 1268614439 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://github.com/odge/al-jabr/blob/master/Fun/FiniteCalculus.v
< 1268614441 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you sure she expressed it in j?
< 1268614442 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: on an unrelated note, wanna hear a cool technique for doing part-of-speech induction? :D
< 1268614453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Definition DiscreteDerivative (f : Z -> Z) (x : Z) := f (x + 1) - f x.
< 1268614460 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay
< 1268614467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have f (x + 1 - f x)
< 1268614470 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD
< 1268614473 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i don't
< 1268614480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm so i do
< 1268614481 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow :D
< 1268614485 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay
< 1268614486 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty epic failure there
< 1268614488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: not really, my head is on the verge of full
< 1268614491 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have f ((x + 1) - f x)
< 1268614493 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww
< 1268614498 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well empty some of it out!
< 1268614500 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean in j terms
< 1268614510 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, im going to tell the channel anyway, oerjan
< 1268614512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so dont worry :D
< 1268614517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAA
< 1268614519 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol! im going to tell this to you too
< 1268614520 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, ok
< 1268614528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D
< 1268614531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: go for it, not that i have any idea what's going on
< 1268614531 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deriv =: adverb : '(u y+1)-u y'
< 1268614536 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a nicer name would be... nice, though
< 1268614549 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+:` x etc
< 1268614554 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not valid
< 1268614554 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: part of speech induction. that is, given some text in a language, discovering the parts of speech (noun, verb, etc.)
< 1268614572 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the algorithm goes like this
< 1268614577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jstor.org/pss/2323743
< 1268614584 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :geometry of binomial coefficients - Stephen Wolfram
< 1268614611 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at the binary stuff :|
< 1268614646 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yay, % deriv now produces a correct plot
< 1268614681 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ deriv still produces a ridiculous plot with little spikes at float errors
< 1268614724 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for each word, collect the "n-contexts" that it appears in, where the n-context of the word is the set of pairs of strings where each string is the n words immediately to the left/right of the word in some sentence the word appears in
< 1268614743 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nicee nice baby
< 1268614765 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you have the sentence "the dog barked", the 1-context is (the, barked). if you have two sentenes, "the dog barked" and "the dog yelped", it has the 1-contexts {(the, barked), (the, yelped)}
< 1268614794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you just map each word to its sentential neighborhood, basically.
< 1268614795 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: now fix integ >_>
< 1268614798 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you even know the error :P
< 1268614826 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you build a graph where each node in the graph is a word, and an arc connects two words if the words share at least one context
< 1268614872 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, the graph is (V, E) where V is the words, and (w1, w2) is in E iff context(w1) intersect context(w2) is not empty
< 1268614911 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that gives you a similarity graph, showing you which words show up in similar neighborhoods to which other words
< 1268614936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if you take the word-wise maximal cliques of this graph, you get the parts of speech
< 1268615017 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I know the equation is correct -
< 1268615021 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : +/] 3+i.1
< 1268615021 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3
< 1268615027 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the definition is broken
< 1268615036 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this algorithm works _surprisingly_ well
< 1268615037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but there's a domain error no matter what code you put in the if
< 1268615045 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'll read.
< 1268615045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but its pretty slow.
< 1268615057 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least with the maximal graph algos i have.
< 1268615071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, maximal clique.
< 1268615113 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so it is the control structure.
< 1268615145 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1268615150 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inside the ifneeds to be imperative things i think
< 1268615152 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*if needs
< 1268615200 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope
< 1268615205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: okay that does sound like an interesting idea
< 1268615210 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1268615218 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll have to check the definition of maximum clique tho
< 1268615224 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a very vague idea
< 1268615248 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what a clique is right?
< 1268615261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait lol
< 1268615263 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last sentence executed in a T block is tested for a non-zero value in its leading atom, determining whether the B block after the do. or the rest of the sentence is executed. An empty T block result or an omitted T block tests true.
< 1268615263 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the rest of the sentence?
< 1268615272 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a clique is a complete subgraph
< 1268615277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo =: adverb define
< 1268615277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y-x
< 1268615277 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268615278 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fails
< 1268615286 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, a subgraph where each vertex is connected to each other vertex
< 1268615307 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ywah
< 1268615309 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1268615310 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a maximAL (with an "al", not maximum "um")
< 1268615312 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, it's the multiple argument thing
< 1268615322 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no i didn't remember that right away
< 1268615333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clique is a clique that cannot be enlarged by adding any other vertex
< 1268615340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo =: adverb define
< 1268615340 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dyad : 'y-x'
< 1268615341 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268615341 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 ] foo 2
< 1268615341 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1
< 1268615348 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a clique not copletely contained in any other clique
< 1268615379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the _node-wise_ maximal cliques of a node are the largest cliques that the node appears in
< 1268615386 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|value error: u
< 1268615387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| +/ u x+i.y-x
< 1268615387 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.
< 1268615387 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lollll
< 1268615397 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the maximal cliques-that-contain-that-node
< 1268615467 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your maximum
< 1268615478 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fuck =: adverb define
< 1268615479 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x
< 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ] fuck
< 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+-+
< 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¦]¦
< 1268615480 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+-+
< 1268615493 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... we can either have one or the other but not both, cool
< 1268615497 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now how do you define an adverb returning dyad
< 1268615502 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without this hit
< 1268615535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have to do a sleep
< 1268615535 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, an adverb may refer to its left argument (using u) as well as to the arguments of the resulting verb (x and y).
< 1268615536 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fugfuck
< 1268615537 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->
< 1268615554 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fughafpb
< 1268615556 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHAAAA
< 1268615557 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think I have it
< 1268615559 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHAHAH!!!!
< 1268615584 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3 (] integ) 4
< 1268615585 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3
< 1268615586 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what the fix was
< 1268615590 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : integ =: adverb define
< 1268615590 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::
< 1268615590 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x)>0 do. +/u x+i.y-x else. 0 end.
< 1268615590 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268615592 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one single fucking colon
< 1268615595 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dyadic case" separator
< 1268615600 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok gimme an example
< 1268615698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1268615712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually should've remembered that
< 1268615713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :->
< 1268615728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deriv =: adverb : '(u y+1)-u y'
< 1268615729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integ =: adverb define
< 1268615729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::
< 1268615729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if. (y-x)>0 do. +/u x+i.y-x else. 0 end.
< 1268615729 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :)
< 1268615730 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite calculus in J
< 1268615799 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay
< 1268615800 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: now gimme a test case
< 1268615810 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you must know triangular numbers
< 1268615813 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something semicomplicated, preferably involving both deriv and integ (in whatever syntax you want)
< 1268615820 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integrate the identity function to get them
< 1268615831 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integrate it again to get 3D pyramid numbers
< 1268615933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 0]deriv integ"0 i.10
< 1268615933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
< 1268615935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sucks eggs!
< 1268616048 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you actually need the x param?
< 1268616057 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't wokr?
< 1268616059 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do that from outside integ no?
< 1268616062 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it does
< 1268616067 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what did you integrate?
< 1268616073 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"0 is the identity?
< 1268616074 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pronounce(sucks eggs) ~ pronounce(success)
< 1268616081 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] is identity
< 1268616083 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's (] deriv) integ
< 1268616084 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268616087 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"0 is just so that I can map it over i.10
< 1268616090 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh!!!
< 1268616095 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because it's dyadic you need to fuck about with rank)
< 1268616105 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for monadic verbs it maps automatically)
< 1268616115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("0 says basically... this thing takes atoms, not lists)
< 1268616173 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do I integrate id?
< 1268616180 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]integ
< 1268616188 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's (f adverb), always
< 1268616193 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x f adverb y also works
< 1268616209 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 (]integ) 6
< 1268616214 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 ]integ 6 even.
< 1268616216 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works ! but how do I map over i.1
< 1268616220 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.10
< 1268616225 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 ]integ 6"0 i.10
< 1268616248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 ]integ "0 i.10
< 1268616249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 1 3 6 10 15 21 28 36
< 1268616250 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes!
< 1268616283 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1268616292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now try integrating 2, add constant 1, then integrate again
< 1268616298 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integrating... 2?
< 1268616302 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 is not a function
< 1268616302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :constant 2
< 1268616324 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2: is constant 2
< 1268616326 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise this is so cool
< 1268616327 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1: is constant 1
< 1268616330 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean adding constant 1, add howso
< 1268616338 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: j or finite calculus in general? :)
< 1268616343 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything!!
< 1268616348 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j's array handling is awesome, and finite calculus is neat
< 1268616352 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very simple definitions
< 1268616356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: const n = \x -> n
< 1268616359 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268616360 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to start using J again, I've totally forgotton it
< 1268616363 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"add" constant 1
< 1268616367 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you "add" two functions
< 1268616373 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f+g = \x -> f x + g x
< 1268616373 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\f g x -> f x + g x?
< 1268616379 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268616453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically
< 1268616453 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo =: dyad : '(1 (2:integ) y)+1'
< 1268616456 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would have thought J would have that as an easy operation
< 1268616459 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to go
< 1268616460 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye
< 1268616460 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably does
< 1268616462 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know it
< 1268616465 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that what forks do?
< 1268616472 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forks are
< 1268616484 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x v y -> (x arg) v (y arg)
< 1268616487 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess
< 1268616488 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway
< 1268616492 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo =: dyad : '(1 (2:integ) y)+1'
< 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (foo integ) 1
< 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0
< 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (foo integ) 2
< 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|domain error: foo
< 1268616494 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| +/ u x+i.y-x
< 1268616495 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/
< 1268616500 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah stuff like forks I struggled to learn
< 1268616503 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stoopid
< 1268616507 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need monad duh
< 1268616509 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's easy
< 1268616513 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you apply an operator to two functions
< 1268616517 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you fork is the only J think i know :D
< 1268616518 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you get
< 1268616523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\x. (f x) op (g x)
< 1268616527 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from f op g
< 1268616542 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: mind you it's also ((1+).) in haskell
< 1268616553 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok this is just giving me constant 1 :)
< 1268616575 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 (foo integ) is constant 3
< 1268616594 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for all n>1
< 1268616601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you integrate the function \x -> 2 ?
< 1268616604 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268616614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (2:integ)"0 i.10
< 1268616615 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
< 1268616621 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives, uh, constant 2 :P
< 1268616622 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's nto correct is it
< 1268616624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be 0 2 4 6 ...
< 1268616625 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less
< 1268616631 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less XD
< 1268616647 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well if it is not then yours is wrong also
< 1268616652 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268616654 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i needed 2:"0
< 1268616660 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 ((2:"0)integ)"0 i.10
< 1268616661 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16
< 1268616678 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : foo =: monad : '(1 ((2:"0)integ) y)+1'
< 1268616679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (foo integ)"0 i.10
< 1268616679 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
< 1268616681 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :altogether less interesting.
< 1268616737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that's not quite right there shouldn't be two 0's first?
< 1268616751 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah got it working
< 1268616761 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 ((1&((2:"0)integ))"0 + 1:)"0 i.10
< 1268616763 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 15 17
< 1268616784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 1 of the 1's should be there
< 1268616796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise the next step would fail, or?
< 1268616797 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i. 10 = 0, 1, 2, ...,
< 1268616797 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9
< 1268616811 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like J
< 1268616818 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j likes you
< 1268616879 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds
< 1268616903 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be nice if J had the facilities to do symbolic stuff too.
< 1268616905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: now integrate one more time
< 1268616908 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus types; then we'd have the perfect language.
< 1268616915 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: as in ((f integ) integ), presumably
< 1268616917 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what happens if you integrate again??
< 1268616927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: after adding the 1
< 1268616932 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1 (((1&((2:"0)integ))"0 + 1:)"0 integ)"0 i.10
< 1268616933 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64
< 1268616935 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the world asplodes
< 1268616938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :success!
< 1268616939 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theat's squares
< 1268616940 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D
< 1268616956 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolang idea: just integration and constant functions
< 1268617023 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( deriv fails on an integ'd func
< 1268617034 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :realy?? why
< 1268617111 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal
< 1268617115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (1&]integ)"0 deriv 1
< 1268617115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|domain error
< 1268617115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| ( u y+1)-u y
< 1268617232 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what number did you say basic arithmetic fails at? 10^40?
< 1268617440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly
< 1268617450 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you serious? :)
< 1268617466 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly
< 1268617483 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268617484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it _could_ be
< 1268617502 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number was of course pulled out of my ass
< 1268617521 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from being on the order of something cosmological
< 1268617523 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok do you believe there is some number n where arithmetic breaks down
< 1268617534 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in /theory/, not on computing machines
< 1268617563 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not positively believe there is such a number no
< 1268617580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i would not positively rule it entirely out either
< 1268617613 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prob=?
< 1268617627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1268617646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've already got _one_ number out of my ass :D
< 1268617662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was asking for a number.
< 1268617662 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it too small to exist :)
< 1268617670 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if there is one thing i _don't_ believe in, it's making up answers when you don't know things
< 1268617698 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then, prob>0.5?
< 1268617711 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean this is a question about your belief in its probability
< 1268617731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not believe my belief is quantifiable
< 1268617793 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prob>0.5 is just a nerdy way of saying is it more likely than not in your opinion
< 1268617804 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. do you err on the side of there is such a number - or not?
< 1268617832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mu
< 1268617878 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are one awkward bastard :)
< 1268617900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a hypothetical possibility, for which i have absolutely no evidence one way or the other. how the heck should i assign a number to it?
< 1268617917 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :synchronicity, a hypothetical possibility with no evidence one way or the other
< 1268617959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just _knew_ you'd say something like that
< 1268617973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er...
< 1268617976 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a predictable guy.
< 1268617981 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... i have a point
< 1268618056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my evidence for synchronicity is immeasurably stronger than my evidence that there exists an inconsistent number. if you want to conclude from that that your asked prob<0.5 then be my guest.
< 1268618077 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but evidence for synchronicity isn't really, it's not actual evidence implying synchronicity
< 1268618087 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because your brain is designed to find causal relations
< 1268618101 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't mean there isn't any such thing and it's a valid belief...
< 1268618107 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is no actual quantifiable evidence for it
< 1268618198 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Major deadline coming up, and I think I'm going to switch to the pre-rewrite
< 1268618209 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because a lot of stuff that still needs to be done in the rewrite was done here
< 1268618225 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why did you rewrite?
< 1268618231 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did not. The other guy did.
< 1268618236 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had no involvement.
< 1268618239 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also - lemme guess, there's no actual DEADLINE
< 1268618246 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's just a bunch of kids thinking they're professional
< 1268618251 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they dreamt one up
< 1268618260 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :marketing! pr! promotions! firing! Enterprise-quality code!
< 1268618279 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, AWI won't renew the guy in charge's citizenship if the deadline is not met
< 1268618283 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yes, there is a deadline
< 1268618294 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, horrific.
< 1268618698 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye, everyone, until Friday. If anyone wants to talk to me... do it now.
< 1268618711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye
< 1268618744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to be up in... less than six and a half hours.
< 1268618756 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye alise_. Wish your situation was resolved sooner :/
< 1268618762 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ditto.
< 1268618765 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks.
< 1268618767 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Toodles!
< 1268618769 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1268620129 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1268620516 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1268620644 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268621343 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wowsers!
< 1268621353 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently when I post a plea for people to munge comics on lonelydino.com , they actually do!
< 1268621558 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa.
< 1268622624 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :?
< 1268623240 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :munge?
< 1268624783 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268627322 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-bqxxtfaoveyvoaiz JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268627331 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, they say that in Unix, everything is a file.
< 1268627359 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in Unix, what isn't a file? If a process doesn't have access to any files, what can it do?
< 1268627378 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from creating files and accessing them. :P
< 1268627406 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: "Everything is a file" refers to the fact that all methods of communication (pipes, files, sockets, devices, etc.) are all accessed in exactly the same way
< 1268627418 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modern systems go even farther with /proc and /sys
< 1268627505 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm.
< 1268627546 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving.
< 1268627575 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Problem: I can't access any web sites because my Internet connection is down. Solution: use a USB drive to load Apache onto the affected computer and create a web site. It will then be possible to access that web site."
< 1268627600 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION coughs.
< 1268627613 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway.
< 1268627624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rright
< 1268627696 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, sockets are only files on fairly esoteric systems, e.g. Plan 9 and Hurd.
< 1268628302 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders permissions.
< 1268628368 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're pretty simple. Read, write, execute, setuid, setgid, sticky... is that all the permission bits?
< 1268628463 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night
< 1268628537 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, with the caveat that there are in fact three read bits, three write bits and three execute bits, yes.
< 1268628556 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right.
< 1268629041 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how groups work.
< 1268629163 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Poorly.
< 1268629183 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does each process have precisely one real and effective group ID? What do a user's other groups do?
< 1268629217 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Other groups allow the process access to files etc based on group permissions, but written files will be of the effective group.
< 1268629248 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed
< 1268629253 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... ohhhhkidokie.
< 1268629258 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-xzmuebanjwtscziq JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268629270 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does each process have precisely one real and effective group ID? What do a user's other groups do?
< 1268629270 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Yes. Other groups allow the process access to files etc based on group permissions, but written files will be of the effective group.
< 1268629302 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So does a process have the group permissions of its own group plus all the groups its user is in?
< 1268629311 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1268629318 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The assumption is that usually those overlap, but they don't have to.
< 1268629333 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, I believe the details of that are not particularly solid, they vary from system to system)
< 1268629351 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("system" meaning "operating system" in this case)
< 1268629415 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods.
< 1268629424 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems straightforward enough.
< 1268629465 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then of course some unixen implement ACLs, and that system has complicated interactions with classic permissions.
< 1268629590 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun.
< 1268629644 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, I'm fairly certain that SELinux implements ACLs (along with a trillion other things), but I have not one clue how they work.]
< 1268630102 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268630293 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1268630350 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my font, myndzi\'s i\ looks a lot like a lambda :P
< 1268631239 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-74-96-89-29.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268631473 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey myndzi\ :o
< 1268631477 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent seen you in a while
< 1268631522 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm surprised anyone remembers me, i wasn't exactly active i guess :P
< 1268631525 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :myndzi
< 1268631545 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i didn't have the channel on autojoin or something
< 1268631805 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you do now! :D
< 1268631842 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er.. one moment... yes, sure, yeah
< 1268631843 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;)
< 1268631885 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good boy
< 1268631953 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man
< 1268631976 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can do part-of-speech induction on a 5000 sentence corpus in about, oh, 3 seconds
< 1268632042 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cool
< 1268632049 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always kinda wanted to learn about natural language processing
< 1268632056 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont. :P
< 1268632062 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its yawnfully boring
< 1268632063 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but everything i tried to look up on the internet was over my head
< 1268632066 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but whatever
< 1268632071 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh!
< 1268632074 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :want an introduction
< 1268632075 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?
< 1268632079 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1268632106 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 1: generate a random model of the corpus
< 1268632130 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 2: calculate the statistics based off of that model and compare it to the new data
< 1268632135 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 3: update your model
< 1268632140 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 4: goto step 2
< 1268632142 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..what
< 1268632143 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P
< 1268632150 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you think im joking
< 1268632151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not
< 1268632163 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, i just don't know what statistics i'm calculating or what the model means
< 1268632164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much of NLP is basically that
< 1268632166 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe
< 1268632171 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any statistics you want
< 1268632189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually its just basic probabilities
< 1268632191 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're saying basically pick a random part of speech for every word, and then and correct it repeatedly?
< 1268632211 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like, if some new sentence comes in, you update your predictions by just like, throwing the sentence into the model
< 1268632214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its really stupid
< 1268632220 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's rather disappointing actually
< 1268632233 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought that there would be a way to actually parse english grammar or something
< 1268632240 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when im done eating ill give you a more accurate picture
< 1268632282 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmk
< 1268632289 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that's why we have lojban eh?
< 1268632290 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1268632296 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no.
< 1268632441 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure! one of the reasons lojban was thunk up was to have a language that could be unambiguously machine-processed
< 1268632447 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesnt mean trivially learned.
< 1268632455 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, certainly not
< 1268632461 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't propose anybody learns lojban lol
< 1268632484 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an interesting idea, but i think i read somewhere that the words were basically randomly generated
< 1268632490 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no character to that
< 1268632528 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if there are many widely used languages that are much easier on NLP than English
< 1268632535 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wouldn't be surprised at all
< 1268632540 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either way really, for different reasons
< 1268633350 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok im done eating
< 1268633360 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so here is the current algo we're doing in class
< 1268633398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first you assume that your input data is a probabilistic markovian process
< 1268633405 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is false, but just pretend, because we're NLP people
< 1268633452 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmk
< 1268633456 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so build a random fully-connected probabilistic finite state machine with state-wise write probabilities
< 1268633470 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, transitions are distinct from symbol writes
< 1268633494 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you transition to a state, you write a symbol associated with that state
< 1268633512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to writing a symbol associated with a particular transition.
< 1268633534 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, now i know *exactly* what to read about on wikipedia! :P
< 1268633539 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry, i probably don't really belong here lol
< 1268633545 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i never went to college D:
< 1268633546 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it gets BETTER
< 1268633602 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a new sentences comes in
< 1268633614 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268633658 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calculate the expected number of times that sentence should show up in a corpus of the size you have
< 1268633676 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or when a new symbol comes in. its all the same.)
< 1268633725 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the states in this case would be nouns, verbs, etc.?
< 1268633732 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, using that re-normalize your probabilities, and this is your new model
< 1268633741 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the states would be whatever.
< 1268633752 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically for NLP
< 1268633760 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the number of states you need varies
< 1268633825 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i about have the gist of it, but what does this have to do with part of speech decisions?
< 1268633849 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i guess they are learned from the arrangement of symbols in your corpus
< 1268633857 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not explicitly defined
< 1268633860 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the part of speech induction thing is a different task
< 1268633873 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could probably apply a similar thing to it
< 1268633877 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats not how im approaching it, tho
< 1268633880 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1268633895 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was trying to read your description in the context of tagging parts of speech hehe
< 1268633906 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably used the term NLP wrong then
< 1268633907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, dont do that
< 1268633920 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what i described was sequence recognition
< 1268633923 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sentences, usually
< 1268633930 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a sentence or not
< 1268633936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how likely is it to be produced
< 1268633936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1268633937 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see
< 1268633952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the POS induction im doing is not at all like that
< 1268633968 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POS induction is the part that sounded interesting
< 1268633991 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole induction probably is interesting
< 1268634000 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thats basically what the sequence recognition thing is
< 1268634005 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one kind of induction problem
< 1268634013 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POS induction is just a special case
< 1268634040 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because words have a specific subset of parts of speech they can be?
< 1268634040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the two become obviously related when you take it into the second dimension and start doing actual structure induction as opposed to markovian inductions
< 1268634058 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no just because words are a degenerate structure
< 1268634095 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom's a degenerate structure >:(
< 1268634103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically, if you have a good algorithm for discovering that some sequences s1 = w1 w2 ... and s2 = x1 x2 ...
< 1268634105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc
< 1268634109 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are really the same thing
< 1268634121 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. that "the dog" and "my cat" are basically the same kind of phrase, namely a noun phrase
< 1268634131 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah
< 1268634137 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can do that for the degenerate case where the "phrase" consists of a single symbol
< 1268634147 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just POS induction
< 1268634164 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure if the converse is true
< 1268634183 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie if you can do POS induction, then you can do structure induction
< 1268634186 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its probably not true.
< 1268634212 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this is surely more than i knew about the subject before, but it won't sink in immediately
< 1268634215 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y u gotta use big words
< 1268634239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dats hao i rol
< 1268634302 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brother has a shirt with that phrase and a toilet paper roll
< 1268634309 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..but the toilet paper is on backwards! >:(
< 1268634328 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ wikipedia page on markov chain
< 1268634329 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : This article may be too technical for most readers to understand. Please improve this article to make it accessible to non-experts, without removing the technical details. (July 2009)
< 1268634332 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amen!
< 1268634372 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed
< 1268634992 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1268636463 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, http://xkcd.com/714/ is pretty good :P
< 1268636618 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not familiar with the source material
< 1268636623 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably, it doesn't contain people fucking
< 1268636942 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably.
< 1268638132 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha
< 1268638138 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :longing looks across the bridge of galactica
< 1268638144 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously her porn is guy on guy 8D
< 1268638554 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268638594 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about, like, kara...
< 1268638595 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait...
< 1268638606 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also i don't remember who actually belongs on the bridge)
< 1268638616 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duvalla(sp?) at least, ya?
< 1268639305 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dualla
< 1268639999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended
< 1268640000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268647024 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268647024 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268647052 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1268648819 0 :lereah_!~lereah@nanpc301.in2p3.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268649720 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-61-77.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268649753 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1268649753 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu
< 1268652752 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there no esolang for PONIES?
< 1268652804 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ponies are pig disgusting
< 1268654369 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268654558 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye
< 1268654969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :
< 1268654989 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268658601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268659582 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1268659621 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268660148 0 :cheater!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo
< 1268661055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1268661088 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268661718 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1268661753 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268662013 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268662054 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268662178 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268665324 0 :werdan7!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 619 seconds
< 1268665730 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268665809 0 :werdan7!~w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268666101 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
< 1268666175 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.
< 1268667409 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcn1rIliuBg
< 1268667412 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relevant.
< 1268667789 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268668316 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268668752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Sick transit Gloria Monday
< 1268670282 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268670739 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268671040 0 :charlls!~charlls@201.226.222.132 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268671455 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1268672564 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268672764 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1268672897 0 :lament!~lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268673996 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow
< 1268674542 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268674544 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268674567 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268674692 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds
< 1268674715 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX
< 1268675900 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION continues to think non-Unicode encodings should die
< 1268675916 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks unicode should die
< 1268675931 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-50-95.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268675931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Why?
< 1268675944 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if binary was good enough for Jesus Christ it's sure as hell good enough for me
< 1268675948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you think it's simpler for there to exist several hundred character sets?
< 1268675951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahah.
< 1268675958 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously though unicode sucks
< 1268675977 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1268675977 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu
< 1268675985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The alternative is several hundred character sets.
< 1268676012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the idea of having lots of symbols is great, and stuff like ligatures and arabic writing is wonderful
< 1268676029 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but things like superscript digits and summation signs just ruin it
< 1268676051 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what we really need is something that does text AND something that does typesetting
< 1268676074 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(typesetting beyond the very basic, put each symbol after (or before if it's a RTL one) the previous)
< 1268676107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are there because other character sets had it, and Unicode is meant to have the following property: fromUnicode . toUnicode == id
< 1268676110 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what we have know is close enough to good that nobody solves the problem of typesetting (I mean look at IRC, HTML, and so on)
< 1268676150 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so I guess having actually written this out, it's not unicode I am against exactly
< 1268676390 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Β½
< 1268676418 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typesetting is crucial to proper functioning of the modern society
< 1268676462 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's incredibly important to get all the ligatures and kerning correct
< 1268676471 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and WASH YOUR HANDS afterwards
< 1268676476 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)
< 1268676538 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EUC-JP, ShiftJIS, and JIS in particular should die.
< 1268676563 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there are four -- *FOUR* encodings in common use in Japanese. All incompatible.)
< 1268676697 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe the language itself should be abolished.
< 1268676702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(EUC-JP is used because it doesn't break POSIX systems' minds, ShiftJIS is used because Windows used it, and JIS is 7-bit safe.)
< 1268676711 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Along with all other non-English languages.
< 1268676723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: But first, let's abolish English.
< 1268676763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea suggested in another channel: use /b/ as an entropy source for /dev/random
< 1268676767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea, or bad idea?
< 1268676776 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXCELLENT idea.
< 1268676783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Insufficiently random.
< 1268676793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: for entropy sources, it doesn't matter
< 1268676799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure zeros does nothing, anything else makes it more random
< 1268676807 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm.
< 1268676814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well then. Good idea.
< 1268676874 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could make a game that uses /b/ as input
< 1268676895 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind of like tetris peices, except memes
< 1268676972 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268677414 0 :lereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268677726 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268679892 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268679955 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268680203 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1268680596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there?
< 1268680765 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a bit busy.
< 1268680769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But technically speaking yes.
< 1268680777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, working on hugin thingy
< 1268680796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sadly I have huge parallax, mobile phone camera
< 1268680805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not sure this will give anything usable
< 1268680903 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Usable" is in the eye of the beholder, though.
< 1268681111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about support beams that are off by 1/2 of their width or more?
< 1268681224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on what you are going to use it for. That sort of picture can still be usable if you just want to make a generic sort of "this is about what the view was like" statement.
< 1268681253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my mobile camera doesn't provide focal length or fov in the exif data btw, which makes me have to guess for something that works
< 1268681307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow at the rectilinear projection of this...
< 1268681510 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine doesn't write fov into exif either, but you can sometimes find that information elsewhere.
< 1268681546 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I guess the initial guess doesn't have to be very good if you optimizize it anyway.
< 1268682090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I need 9 non-vert/horiz lines to even get this to look like something from this world
< 1268682861 0 :hiato!~fdulu@dsl-245-63-253.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268683888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome back everybody
< 1268683893 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially hiato i guess
< 1268683910 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268684001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :"Gwandocu (n): Extremely strong evidence, far beyond a reasonable doubt." | module Topic where aliseSighting :: IO Integer | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D
< 1268684131 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good one
< 1268684250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that topic
< 1268684671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doing a first stitch atm, if not too bad I will upload it somewhere
< 1268684714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using enblend due to being unable to get good enough fit for enfuse to be usable at all)
< 1268684820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeargh
< 1268684981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, uploading anyway
< 1268684984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be interesting
< 1268685029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://omploader.org/vM3VidQ
< 1268685088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I like that bench, it is always warm XD)
< 1268685121 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Needless to say...
< 1268685128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, ?
< 1268685140 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I said "needless to say". That means I don't need to say it.
< 1268685149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, don't need to say *what*?
< 1268685158 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It goes without saying!
< 1268685173 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, I have no idea idea what you are referring to :/
< 1268685286 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't say
< 1268685322 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi
< 1268685380 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268685502 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268685619 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds
< 1268685620 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX
< 1268685660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so well, what do you think of it?
< 1268685692 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The window frameworksy aren't any worse than that at-the-work-place mobile-phone shots I did. Is this where?
< 1268685747 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268685975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:12:43 idea suggested in another channel: use /b/ as an entropy source for /dev/random
< 1268686042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coming next: Anonymous carefully manipulates /b/ to hack computer cryptography by messing up /dev/random
< 1268686087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's supposed to be impossible
< 1268686121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "is this where"?
< 1268686133 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where is this"
< 1268686137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes.
< 1268686140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268686145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish influences?
< 1268686150 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: 21:08 < oklopol> especially hiato i guess
< 1268686153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, Γrebro Universitet
< 1268686153 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :)
< 1268686155 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly
< 1268686168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this is the rather messy enfuse result: http://omploader.org/vM3VjMQ
< 1268686212 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: i didn't notice someone had just joined so i had to acknowledge that my comment happened to made sense :P
< 1268686222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if one could do stereo image from this
< 1268686224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps not
< 1268686241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Where this is?" might be the canonical word order for Finnish, but we're a bit more flexible about that; "is this where?" (or "onko tΓ€mΓ€ mistΓ€?") doesn't sound *so* confusing.
< 1268686243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have to figure out where the camera was... which is likely to be hard
< 1268686246 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hahaha, nice. Well, 'tis the thought that counts anyway :P
< 1268686260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "where is this" in English even afaik
< 1268686265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "where this is"
< 1268686266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/
< 1268686273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268686278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish, not English
< 1268686280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to sleep
< 1268686283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can read properly
< 1268686284 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1268686284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where this is" makes no sense, "is this where" almost does
< 1268686286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, "is this where?" is a double question.
< 1268686312 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess "where" can mean "the place" rather than being a question word. "Is this the place?"
< 1268686314 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in context, where this is, means something. It was "where this is" and "is this where" it was
< 1268686325 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: precisely
< 1268686330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was expecting "is this where happened"
< 1268686332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such
< 1268686341 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Onko tΓ€mΓ€ mistΓ€?" is maybe closer to "is this from where?"
< 1268686353 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well in uorygl's sense it makes total sense
< 1268686355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what did you think about the enfused variant?
< 1268686361 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, by that token, "this is where" some gruesome event happened makes sense too, though not a question
< 1268686362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :notice the weird art out there
< 1268686372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue what it is supposed to look like
< 1268686380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or be
< 1268686386 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interpreted straight, "is this where?" is asking whether it's in a certain place and also asking what that place is.
< 1268686399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you say something like "you found this where exactly?"
< 1268686419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It looks pretty typical as far as enfuse-with-unaligned-sources material go; my no-tripod shots often seem to end up as "blurry".
< 1268686423 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but that's a cultural thing as opposed to grammatical
< 1268686426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, however, in the parts where enfuse *did* manage to merge nicely it increased detail level and removed jpeg artifacts quite nicely
< 1268686450 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to do that in Lojban. "xu zvati ma" means, verbosely, "True-or-false: it's at what-place?."
< 1268686461 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: was that response to me? i'm just saying that sort of usage exists, the kinds where "is this where" = "where is this"
< 1268686469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I actually started out wanting to take photos of the long ice taps hanging down (was even worse a few weeks ago)
< 1268686477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*kind
< 1268686507 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yeah, it was. I guess, but that is stertching, as the one is a question (starts with a verb) whereas the other is a subjunctive clause, or part of it IIRC
< 1268686521 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "xu zvati ma" does not mean "is this where" in the sense of "is this the place"
< 1268686526 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: By "ice taps", do you mean the icicles?
< 1268686536 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stalactites?
< 1268686538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh that is the English word, is it?
< 1268686541 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right.
< 1268686544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but yes
< 1268686563 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: no it's just "where is this" vs "where did you find this", and "is this where" vs "you found this where"
< 1268686578 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just doesn't make sense for a short sentence
< 1268686607 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i don't know about subjunctive clause, but they are definitely the exact same thing
< 1268686619 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: in fact i'm not sure it means anything
< 1268686627 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or umm
< 1268686636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it means, supply whether somewhere, supply where
< 1268686644 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if somewhere)
< 1268686661 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: right. Now I'm confused. The first two ("where is this" and "where did you find this" are completely different, in both tense and meaning, explicitly and impliticly), the second two are closer related, but still have different meanings and are not interchangable
< 1268686705 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, are you talking about a context, as opposed to taken on their own?
< 1268686714 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"this is" and "you find this" are both normal sentences, you're just asking where those things happen.
< 1268686726 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, right
< 1268686737 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where does an elephant eat its baby", "the elephant ate its baby WHERE?"
< 1268686753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm
< 1268686757 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, "Where is this?" and "Where did you find this?" are different in meaning, but perhaps not necessarily answer
< 1268686774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway, I think I shall have to get a compact camera that produces raw. That is, my normal camera is way too bulky to just put in a pocket in the backpack
< 1268686775 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is Alaska" vs "On a map"
< 1268686778 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually the elephant thing corresponds better to "this is where?"
< 1268686784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the one in the mobile phone is very bad quality
< 1268686797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so something like a compact high end camera would be perfect
< 1268686805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and light
< 1268686816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay yeah i'm not sure "is this where" makes sense
< 1268686816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my normal camera is too heavy as well
< 1268686835 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you read this where" is also "this is where"
< 1268686838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, now figure out "this where is"
< 1268686856 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: as a unit, it doesn't. It can only make sense as part of a larger sentence, acting as the main verb as opposed to part of the predicate
< 1268686866 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is where it is at.
< 1268686890 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "you read this where" is horrible abuse of grammar and doesn't actually make sense if read like that
< 1268686894 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: or in the sense uorygl said. that's a bit irrelevant
< 1268686905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bot-tweetery: "About IRC: further discussion would be fruitless. you have to stop doing scheme and do something less kludgish, so... :p i'm not sure"
< 1268686905 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to "You read this? Where?"
< 1268686911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1268686915 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's not what i mean
< 1268686959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw I use hugin to merge and perspective correct photos of overheads from lectures
< 1268686967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works quite well even from the mobile phone
< 1268686998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is basically no parallax, and even if there is it is all on one plane (the projection)
< 1268687013 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure "you read this where?" is horrible, but "you saw this where" gives 114000 google hits
< 1268687028 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well
< 1268687037 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most are probably not in the sense i mean
< 1268687040 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but first result is :P
< 1268687046 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardly a grammatical argument if google is involved :P
< 1268687047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, that works when "where" is stressed. Like in shock or surprise
< 1268687049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no
< 1268687054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least one is!
< 1268687058 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the first page
< 1268687060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't your people publish that sort of stuff over the interwebs? (Though we have photographed the blackboards on some lectures.)
< 1268687068 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes that's the point
< 1268687083 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you're seeing is "you saw this where "
< 1268687084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, I write down the stuff from the whiteboards. But no, not overheads afaik
< 1268687104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i'm not
< 1268687113 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it can't be a question
< 1268687116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, considering that teacher is not the most apt with computers (he teaches electricity, currently about AC)
< 1268687119 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most on the first few pages are "you saw this where" in the sense "where did you see this"
< 1268687126 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it cant ever really be a question oklopol
< 1268687140 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's cause interwebz kiddies are shtoopid
< 1268687161 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure some of them are native speakers.
< 1268687175 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah, yes. I guess we've got a few cases who have only handwritten non-computerized stuff. But everyone else as a rule publishes most lecture material in the System we have.
< 1268687195 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol while true, the native and grammatically correct speakers are a minority
< 1268687196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or rather, he seems to not use computers unless he have to. Considering he is rumoured to teach VHDL as well I don't know what to make of it
< 1268687237 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, in germanic languages, that construction just doesn't work: "jy het dit gesien waar?" makes as little sense as it does in english, in afirkaans/dutch
< 1268687253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but yes, in general many seem to use hand written notes for the lectures. Well, not the math teachers, they all use latex
< 1268687256 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, "rumoured to teach VHDL" sounds nice. It's like VHDL is some sort of dirty secret.
< 1268687256 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well it's true the prescriptivist answer might be that the construct is not grammatical, but i'm pretty sure it's not just shtoopid internet kids who use it.
< 1268687262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*interwebz kiddies
< 1268687281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD. (never mind that the math teachers often depart from their lecture notes)
< 1268687290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a normal colloquial construct, emphasizes where
< 1268687302 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, +3 for the correction oklopol, but fair enough, it has been assimilated, just as the double negative has "You aint going nowhere"
< 1268687305 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
< 1268687306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well, I will have some VHDL in the next course iirc
< 1268687313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess I'll get to know that then
< 1268687329 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, however, doesn't mean it actually makes sense within the rules of the grammar, rather that it has an accepted meaning
< 1268687354 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amongst native speakers in specific envirnments
< 1268687380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, "all but" is a strange idiom
< 1268687400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about as strange as "You aint going nowhere" is to me)
< 1268687406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i dunno bout dat
< 1268687423 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if anything, it is more grounded in English than most others. It's very arcaic, and I have yet to meet someone who uses it readily
< 1268687425 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "all but" makes more sense than it can seem to.
< 1268687436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, uses what? "all but"?
< 1268687443 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All but John ate the food.
< 1268687445 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268687445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If something is all but destroyed, it's been damanged in every possible manner except for destroying it.
< 1268687448 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which i mean "yes maybe, i don't know" and not "you're wrong"
< 1268687449 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that context
< 1268687466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, seen it in literature. Oh btw I tend to use archaic Swedish just for the fun
< 1268687468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If somebody all but kills you, you're only barely alive at the end.
< 1268687475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't manage that in English
< 1268687482 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: only strictly speaking
< 1268687488 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I try it :)
< 1268687518 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, there is the alternative construction "save", eg: "He ate it all save the rice"
< 1268687534 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where "all but" is nonsensical
< 1268687550 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think save is the same as all but
< 1268687558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, you would get double "all" without it?
< 1268687563 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that "all but" is only an idiom when it precedes an adjective, or even only when it precedes a past participle.
< 1268687567 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh?
< 1268687591 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well for one thing, "all but" is nonsensical in your example :)
< 1268687599 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I'm almost sure it's not called an idiom, that would be more like "Two wrongs don't make a right"
< 1268687630 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to an adage which is something like "A penny saved is a penny earned"
< 1268687630 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we talking about "he ate it all but the rice" or about "he ate it all all but the rice"?
< 1268687636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does either of those make sense?
< 1268687637 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Two wrongs don't make a right" and "a penny saved is a penny earned" are the same type of phrase.
< 1268687644 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"He ate it all but the rice" seems to make sense to me.
< 1268687659 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, oklopol, that's what I'm saying, they are equivalent, but not interchangable
< 1268687665 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you think of "but" as "except", but i mean if you think of "all but" as "all but"
< 1268687675 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: they are subtley different, and hence are either idioms or adages
< 1268687692 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268687692 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, he ate it all but the rice doesn't actually make senes
< 1268687697 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: can you show me where they are interchangeable? if their uses are completely separate, then i'm not sure they can be considered the same :P
< 1268687709 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are similar, sure
< 1268687723 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: "..they are equivalent, but not interchangable..."
< 1268687724 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;)
< 1268687735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but what does that mean
< 1268687773 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well, by that I meant that they express the same concept through the same consturct: list exclusion has the same meaning forall list and exclusion
< 1268687780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Two wrongs don't make a right" <-- unless left twice was same as right
< 1268687787 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the grammar is subtley different, so not interchangeable
< 1268687794 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh
< 1268687794 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say that in Haskell, "" and [] are equivalent but not interchangeable. 3:[] is a valid expression while 3:"" is not, even though [] and "" are equal.
< 1268687805 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: nice example
< 1268687860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue I have with "all but" is that it *doesn't* mean "all except"
< 1268687872 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "An adage (pronounced /ΛΓ¦dΙͺdΚ/), or adagium (Latin), is a short but memorable saying that holds some important fact of experience that is considered true by many people, or that has gained some credibility through its long use. It often involves a planning failure such as "don't count your chickens before they hatch" or "don't burn bridges behind you." Adages may be interesting observations, practical or ethical guidelines, or p
< 1268687878 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay in what sort of sentence do they mean the same thing, if not actually syntactically interchangeable?
< 1268687880 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: [citation needed]
< 1268687898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, well, at least sometimes it doesn't mean that, unless I'm confusing things
< 1268687921 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, it sort of does mean that.
< 1268687921 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay "all but" can also mean "all except", but the sense used in "he all but killed me" i don't think "save" can ever do
< 1268687923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, also second meaning at http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/all+but
< 1268687927 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Of his belongings, he took all but the sink VS He took his belongings save the sink
< 1268687960 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later
< 1268687961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, try "almost"
< 1268687962 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but that's not the actual construct "all but", that's just a sentence where "all" and "but" are adjacent :P
< 1268687962 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, the second would need qualification
< 1268687971 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: yes it is
< 1268687984 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If he all but killed me, then he didn't give me a shower, bandage my wounds, or give me a haircut.
< 1268688009 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he didn't kill me.
< 1268688017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well whatever, i don't think were actually arguing about anything :P
< 1268688019 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you can't really use "all but" in that construction. It usually doesn't refer to degree of action so much as exclusion from a list
< 1268688021 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*we're
< 1268688027 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: agreed
< 1268688042 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't say "he all but killed me"?
< 1268688045 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hiato: uorygl: you can't really use "all but" in that construction." <<< yes you can, it's the meaning uorygl has been talking about all the time
< 1268688049 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's the one i said save can't do
< 1268688081 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: not unless you were an uneducated peasant living in post-Elizabethan england
< 1268688087 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like all but do something, all but some adjective. not "all but" as in "all except"
< 1268688102 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: he used in in degree
< 1268688108 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're showing me exclusion
< 1268688134 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously exclusion is what save does, but i was never talking about that usage
< 1268688154 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"save" and "all but" are the same when "all but" is "all except"
< 1268688174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that's what you've been saying, then yeah we weren't arguing about anything
< 1268688211 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To take his example to it's logical maximum: He all but painted yellow is fine, but He pianted it all but yellow (where all but is the degree of painting it yellow) is silly
< 1268688223 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: then I guess we're not
< 1268688257 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am a potato, i am a macaroni
< 1268688267 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, bad example, but I hope you see what I mean
< 1268688267 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm going to simply contradict you and say that "he all but killed me" is indeed a valid way of saying that he wounded me in every possible manner short of killing me.
< 1268688292 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now there's another equivalent yet not interchangeable consturction: short of
< 1268688322 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, uorygl, it's not so much a strict grammatical rule as a manner of interpretation
< 1268688336 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think we broke oklopol: 22:21 < oklopol> i am a potato, i am a macaroni
< 1268688381 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sighs, realising English has too many exceptions for its rules to be called rules in the first place
< 1268688424 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are rules that are broken rarely if ever.
< 1268688439 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rules that can be broken are cooles, says this dude
< 1268688447 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rules that broken, rarely if ever, are present
< 1268688460 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are
< 1268688476 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rarely, if ever, are some rules broken
< 1268688495 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The determiner always comes before the noun, never after.
< 1268688499 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm at the end of my string
< 1268688506 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I like that
< 1268688509 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even the most foolish of fools would accidentally say "dog the" for "the dog".
< 1268688510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a determiner
< 1268688512 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: a determiner?
< 1268688515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: why :o
< 1268688522 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A determiner is pretty much an article.
< 1268688525 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that sort of determinator
< 1268688531 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: cooles, it's catchy :P
< 1268688535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah!
< 1268688535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268688552 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the acts of you liking it are cooles
< 1268688567 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A/an, the, my, your, his, her, its, our, their, Alice's...
< 1268688577 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Fair enough, but, again, the exception does not make it the rule
< 1268688598 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh?
< 1268688627 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the exception to the exception of the rules being malformed is not the rule of the exception of the rules being malformed
< 1268688632 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"huh" means "whew" in finnish
< 1268688632 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(take that, grammar gods)
< 1268688642 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where whew means?
< 1268688650 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :load of my back
< 1268688655 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*off
< 1268688660 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of, phew type thing
< 1268688661 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1268688664 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I said that there are rules without exceptions, not that most rules don't have exceptions.
< 1268688674 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: then we have no fight
< 1268688681 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I will make one if possible
< 1268688686 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there are lots of "rules" that simply say that something is true most of the time.
< 1268688699 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the time, the subject precedes the verb. Most of the time, all phrases are contiguous.
< 1268688715 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/all//
< 1268688770 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of the time, "me" is an object pronoun.
< 1268688773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268688798 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fundementally, I hate the rules of stress: it should be that the penultimate syllable recieves the stress in the word, hence paRABola not PARAbola but, then we get TElevesion not teleVISion or DIfficulty not diFICULty
< 1268688810 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on and so forth
< 1268688823 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "Are we there yet?" is an exception to the first, "I want to slap the person in the face who did that" is an exception to the second, and "Me and Andy are going to the store" is an exception to the third.
< 1268688824 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's these inconsistencies that annoy me, as I'm not a native speaker
< 1268688861 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you were to stress the penultimate syllable, you would have "paraBOla", not "paRAbola".
< 1268688871 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the "ficul" of "difficulty" is two syllables.
< 1268688904 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: but, convention prohibits the latter two examples. Never end in a preposition, and the reflexive personal pronouns have lowest priority
< 1268688921 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, my bad to those two
< 1268688940 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how is "paRABola" penultimate
< 1268688946 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that we inherit a lot of our stress rules from Latin.
< 1268688947 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live in a country where english is a minority language, so emphasis is strange
< 1268688973 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would tend to agree
< 1268688977 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, unfortunately, the stress cues are now totally gone, so we just have to look everything up in a dictionary.
< 1268688983 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emphasis should be on the first syllable, so you know where words start
< 1268689012 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban has a pretty complicated system for telling you where words begin and end.
< 1268689015 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: imagane saying "IMageen SAyin"
< 1268689028 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or SUyin
< 1268689037 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl my memory fails me
< 1268689047 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's, like...
< 1268689072 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: it would be a more beautiful english
< 1268689103 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Once you hit a pair of consonants in a row, everything from then on is a single word up to the syllable after the next stressed syllable.
< 1268689122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you have "babababablababaBAbababa", then "blababaBAba" is a single word.
< 1268689134 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I beg to differ. English is beuatiful in that it is the quintessential natural language. Full of quirks and relics of the past, assimilations from long forgotten languges and silly human tendancies come grammar rules
< 1268689174 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is beauty?
< 1268689185 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: that must be rather complex to speak fluently, as it requires an analysis of the language, as opposed to isolated understanding of terms/phrases
< 1268689195 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the last consonant before the consonant pair, and all the vowels after that, are included in the word if and only if the word would otherwise be only one syllable.
< 1268689198 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: your mother
< 1268689199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still speaking about language?
< 1268689201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-
< 1268689204 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well okay i guess i agree
< 1268689217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, good queston
< 1268689222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question*
< 1268689226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: shut up and sleep with me
< 1268689227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me if you find the answer to it
< 1268689245 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, once you've identified words using those rules, every consonant has its own word.
< 1268689252 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-and sleep with me
< 1268689252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but I heard it can be found in the eye of the beholder
< 1268689264 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i won't sleep with you
< 1268689268 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I could never talk it
< 1268689270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, so clearly you need to dissect your own eyes to find out :D
< 1268689274 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, what about me?
< 1268689275 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: well, not really; in practice, these rules simply place restrictions on what words are possible.
< 1268689284 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: i removed that part
< 1268689290 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: not you either
< 1268689302 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i realized you are canadian and i'm racist
< 1268689304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, get started with it :)
< 1268689305 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shies his head in sorrow
< 1268689318 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: so it really becomes the same sort of "identify the words; those are where the words are" that natural languages are.
< 1268689418 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I guess, but it all sounds far too little like a language and more like a programming language to me. Though I realise its goal is to be machine parsable. But still, words should not have different "arguments" to them, opreators should not have strange precedence and so on, if a language is to be understood and spoken as opposed to learned and recalled
< 1268689475 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English has arguments!
< 1268689496 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the sentence "I threw the ball to John", the arguments of "threw" are "I", "the ball", and "to John".
< 1268689517 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268689554 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's really not much strange precedence stuff; the rule is simply that everything is greedy.
< 1268689573 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe they are arguments. For example, the ball was thrown from me to john. Are you now going to say taht Eng can be RPN?
< 1268689599 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "arguments" is what they're called!
< 1268689613 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no markers to say that John, Ball and I belong to throw, as opposed to ball and throw belong to John
< 1268689623 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or that all of it belongs to was
< 1268689645 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's argument-y about Lojban's arguments that's not argument-y about English's arguments?
< 1268689761 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cant say that throw "operates on" or "requires" "argumenst" in any manner in Eng. In any natlang, well, I guess isolating ones, each verb needs no qualification, or can be arbitrarilely qualified. It can't specify how many or what form its qualifications can take anymore than any other part of speech. In fact, if anything, there will generally be an alternate construction that, without any delimiation has a similar if not identical meani
< 1268689836 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the trivial example of which is active VS passive, wherein, if anything is to be considered an argument in the first, it can be considered an operator in the second. Unless you now say that Natlangs have first class "verbs" that can be parsed to other verbs and verbs can return "verbs" and so on
< 1268689876 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, likewise, in Lojban, each "verb" takes whatever number of arguments you feel like passing to it.
< 1268689904 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas, in Lojban, you have fi, fo, and what have you that need to be specified if the "arguments" are "parsed" out of order
< 1268689988 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you have that stuff in English, too. You can't say "Patrick ate John" by saying "John ate Patrick".
< 1268689999 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in english: Throw the right ball on your right to my left OR Throw to my left that ball that is on your right OR The ball that is on your right must be thrown, relative to me, left (assuming it was a command)
< 1268690016 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that is confusing subject and object with qualifications
< 1268690032 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Lojban has both sorts of things.
< 1268690048 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, you cannot manipulate like that without delimeters
< 1268690077 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and or specific constructions to change the manner in which verbs "operate" on their arguments
< 1268690092 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Lojban, there are two things corresponding to prepositions, which are argument slots and modals.
< 1268690109 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't the name give it away?
< 1268690122 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A verb may be considered a function, as oppose to a concept
< 1268690125 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give what away?
< 1268690137 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a function, it's a relation.
< 1268690143 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : which are argument slots
< 1268690156 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me relations don't need arguments
< 1268690163 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most certianly not in specific slots
< 1268690166 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No?
< 1268690191 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't a relation say that a specific thing is related to a specific other thing in a specific way?
< 1268690192 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if qualification is desired, it may be given in any manner of ways, as opposed to conforming to an expect construct per verb
< 1268690213 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :John is bigger than Peter. We don't say how John is bigger
< 1268690232 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you say "I eat pizza" without using the construct that "eat" expects?
< 1268690237 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just that, by size, they are related
< 1268690248 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eat does not expect a construct, that's what I'm saying
< 1268690256 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English expects (mostly) SVO
< 1268690261 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's it
< 1268690273 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Is bigger than" has exactly two slots, no more, no less, and each one goes in a specific place.
< 1268690302 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I eat a pizza - has the same constuction as I throw a pizza and I sling a pizza etc etc
< 1268690305 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If all you were saying is that John and Peter are related by size, then "John is bigger than Peter" and "Peter is bigger than John" would mean the same thing.
< 1268690311 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENGLISH is what specifies order, not verbs
< 1268690325 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THere is no verb that can ovveride SVO
< 1268690329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, err, ternary "is bigger than" would be fun
< 1268690329 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dare you to find one
< 1268690331 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likewise, in Lojban, you use precisely the same grammatical rules for all "verbs".
< 1268690373 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In lojban, some verbs take subject, object then (eg) position, others are object only, some still are position relative to subject in manner and so on
< 1268690387 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they all use precisely the same grammar.
< 1268690389 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where each verb has an overriding say in what follows int
< 1268690391 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no
< 1268690394 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't
< 1268690420 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what's an example of differing grammar?
< 1268690475 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't tell me that WALK 1.left 2.relative to John is the same as EAT 1.fast 2.John's food 3.on the left
< 1268690487 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the third slot of EAT specifies location
< 1268690492 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then location goes there
< 1268690500 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the third slot of DRIVE may specify time
< 1268690506 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can't put location there
< 1268690550 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're saying that in Lojban, the thing denoted by a slot varies by what the verb is?
< 1268690552 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, the language has no say in what order/what type of slots go where, why? Because each verb is different
< 1268690560 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes
< 1268690575 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If WALK expects 1.direction 2.speed
< 1268690576 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, heck, English does that, too.
< 1268690587 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nonsensical to write WALK 1.fast 2.left
< 1268690593 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, in english
< 1268690598 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I walk to the left, quickly
< 1268690605 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I walk quickly to the left
< 1268690610 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Boil" takes one thing in its subject slot, "jump" takes a different thing in its subject slot.
< 1268690621 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl you're not seeing my point
< 1268690658 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not what it takes, but the order. SVO *is* English. Lojban, verbs specify what comes where
< 1268690683 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :22:57 < hiato> where each verb has an overriding say in what follows int
< 1268690719 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see what I mean?
< 1268690722 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can give you an example of two verbs in English that mean the same thing but take their arguments in different slots.
< 1268690734 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In English, "X likes Y" and "Y pleases X" mean the same thing.
< 1268690753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1268690760 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the something-likes-something relation, there's no inherent subject or object there; English verbs assign them arbitrarily.
< 1268690771 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, they don't, and again, you're confusing the matter with SVO and the order VERBS take qualification
< 1268690784 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not who does what, but the what is being done that gets qualified
< 1268690792 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's where the difference is
< 1268690824 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've lost track of what your point is.
< 1268690838 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(either way, John likes Mary and John eats Mary - both times English assigns SVO, verbs have no say)
< 1268690846 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh
< 1268690865 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tire, so I'm gonna hit the sack
< 1268690875 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, re-read over the logs for what it's worth
< 1268690877 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lojban also has SVO! You put the x1 before the verb, and the x2, the x3, the x4, and the x5 after!
< 1268690884 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it woujld seem we're saying different things
< 1268690892 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe so.
< 1268690892 0 :adu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: adu
< 1268690892 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so arent arguing about anything
< 1268690906 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever it is, it's your fault. :P
< 1268690924 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I agree with taht SVO in lojban, but that is not how the verb qualification works. X1 may not be subject, X2 may not be verb etc
< 1268690929 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, whatever :P
< 1268690933 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, cheers
< 1268690937 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been interesting
< 1268690943 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as always on this channel
< 1268690963 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow
< 1268690966 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In English, the subject slot may not be the x1, the verb may not be the x2, etc.
< 1268690980 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The subject/object distinction is just as arbitrary as the x1/x2/x3/x4/x5 distinction.
< 1268691729 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds
< 1268692087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, x?
< 1268692114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also stop talking about non-esolangs for a momement :/
< 1268692119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moment
< 1268692119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'
< 1268692126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/'/*/
< 1268692170 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x1 x2 x1 x1 x2 x3 x1 x2 x3 x1 x4 x5 x6 x7 x2 x5 x1
< 1268692176 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x1 x4 x4 x4???
< 1268692238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I just have no idea what they mean
< 1268692650 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268693147 0 :Ilari!~Ilari@a88-112-50-174.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268693931 0 :MigoMipo!~MigoMipo@84-217-10-194.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268694645 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc4-sgyl29-2-0-cust108.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268694793 0 :Ilari_!~user@a88-112-50-174.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268694840 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving
< 1268694841 0 :Ilari_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari
< 1268694856 0 :augur!~augur@c-98-218-226-149.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268695186 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello?
< 1268695232 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good day to you too, sir.
< 1268695233 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm
< 1268695234 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi
< 1268695261 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello.
< 1268695268 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who maintains the wiki?
< 1268695297 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's using an *incredibly* out-of-date version of MediaWiki.
< 1268695465 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it out-of-date enough to be esoteric? if not, we just have to wait a while :)
< 1268695517 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: lawl
< 1268695523 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be running Hackiki ^^
< 1268695523 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving
< 1268695535 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, who does maintain it?
< 1268695557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ever-enigmatic graue.
< 1268695574 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackiki? reminds me of a kebab place here that's called hakepi
< 1268695589 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: http://hackiki.org/ But instead, it's the GREATEST WIKI SOFTWARE EVARS
< 1268695616 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: but it will not feed me!
< 1268695620 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Whiteboard scribblings from a lecture: http://www.cis.hut.fi/~itniemin/lumileopardi.jpg
< 1268695625 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Won't it? WON'T IT?
< 1268695638 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Useful.
< 1268695644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could write a wiki using Brainfuck and CGI.
< 1268695667 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I VERY MUCH DOUBT that it will
< 1268695669 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the tape would need to be *enormous*.
< 1268695688 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haaaaaaaa
< 1268695690 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ckiiiiiiii
< 1268695691 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, actually, we could write the wiki in mod_rewrite!
< 1268695692 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kiiiiiiiii
< 1268695721 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just needs some storage api, but that can be built external to the rewriting
< 1268695745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It's a visualization of the positive and negative border; it's about finding frequent itemsets in data; and the thing that looks a bit like pi to the zeroth power with a hook on it is actually a snow leopard.
< 1268695773 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mod_rewrite is horribly inefficient though, it'll run out of memory in notime
< 1268695787 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: HA
< 1268695789 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: CKI
< 1268695791 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: KI
< 1268695822 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: meh
< 1268695824 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This is the only kind of software evangelism I know how to do :P )
< 1268695832 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Meh? D-8
< 1268695871 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1268695874 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"CKI"? "KI"?
< 1268695880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Whiteboard scribblings from a lecture: http://www.cis.hut.fi/~itniemin/lumileopardi.jpg <-- quantum physics?
< 1268695890 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "Hackiki" :P
< 1268695923 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: picture of a clown?
< 1268695924 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki is actually pretty awesome.
< 1268695932 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose if that ESO OS (first on the forum) gets working you could hack together an HTTP server.
< 1268695960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, Hackiki looks cool.
< 1268695980 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe multi-process postscript or something :)
< 1268695992 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-92.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268696004 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: D-8
< 1268696012 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Like I described it to Gregor: "It's a visualization of the positive and negative border; it's about finding frequent itemsets in data; and the thing that looks a bit like pi to the zeroth power with a hook on it is actually a snow leopard."
< 1268696013 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"D-8"?
< 1268696022 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not good at acronyms.
< 1268696027 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly.
< 1268696035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Date"?
< 1268696043 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was rolling 1 negative-8 sided die.
< 1268696053 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah.
< 1268696064 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone else: Was that too mean? :P
< 1268696084 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Lean your head to the right :P
< 1268696084 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe
< 1268696089 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm now thoroughly confused.
< 1268696111 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ζ¬ε½γ«οΌγ°γ¬γΌγεγγγ£γγοΌ
< 1268696112 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a smiley
< 1268696127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/γ°γ¬γΌγ/γ°γ¬γΌγ¬/
< 1268696176 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's the very opposite of a smiley, in some sense
< 1268696184 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some other sense it is exactly a smiley
< 1268696195 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a megafrowny
< 1268696209 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(then again, the negative-8 sided die is also a sense, so I'm not saying much here)
< 1268696235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*echm* Really? Gregor has succeeded!)
< 1268696287 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Must dash.
< 1268696288 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.8/20100214235838]
< 1268696317 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm certain there's another way to represent "must dash"
< 1268696358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :θ‘γγ―γγ
< 1268696360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ That?
< 1268696385 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't that be a 'ki' rather than 'ku'?
< 1268696399 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Should it?
< 1268696450 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it depends on how you read the other characters
< 1268696482 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fetch http://pastebin.ca/raw/1841805
< 1268696492 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2010-03-15 22:41:08 URL:http://pastebin.ca/raw/1841805 [445] -> "1841805" [1]
< 1268696504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should definitely be γ.
< 1268696513 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run mv "1841805" bin/roll ; dos2unix bin/roll; chmod 0755 bin/roll
< 1268696517 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1268696519 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`roll 55d6
< 1268696521 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output.
< 1268696524 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops
< 1268696726 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net
< 1268696738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. γ―γ is probably wrong in this context, though. Should be more θ‘γγͺγγ‘γγ
< 1268696769 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll hazu your ikanakucha
< 1268696771 0 :jay!~jay@c-75-67-0-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1268696777 0 :jay!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HI
< 1268696787 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Hah.
< 1268696799 0 :jay!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest31015
< 1268696800 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jay: γγγγγ
< 1268696841 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello Mr. Anonymous Guest
< 1268696884 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :η§γ―γη§γ―GoogleηΏ»θ¨³γδ½Ώη¨γγ¦ζ₯ζ¬θͺγθ©±γγͺγ
< 1268696900 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha google can't translate it's own name
< 1268696913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congrats. :P
< 1268696913 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: Nobody here speaks Japanese, pikhq just likes to think that he does.
< 1268696920 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1268696934 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :?
< 1268696940 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Hey, I'm actually *learning* Japanese you know.
< 1268696950 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can a language with no array support be turing-complete?
< 1268696962 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1268696963 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing machines have no arrays
< 1268696973 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can it emulate a 'tape'
< 1268696975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I don't think you need to know Japanese to tell he just used Google's translator.
< 1268696980 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably the tape is an "array", however the Lambda calculus certainly has no arrays.
< 1268696988 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: it doesn't emulate a tape it *has* a tape
< 1268696994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guest31015: Depends on the language.
< 1268696995 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the definition of a TM
< 1268697043 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: For some unfathomable reason I have an irresistible urge to reply "no, YOU are the tape" to that.
< 1268697057 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Soviet Russia, tape emulate YOU!
< 1268697082 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha :)
< 1268697090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyhoo, two stacks is also a fashionable way to emulate a tape.
< 1268697126 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's more the string rewriting type of tape because you can add new cells
< 1268697128 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and remove them
< 1268697173 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about Commodore Basic? Is it turing complete? I think it does not have arrays
< 1268697174 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kind you'd use with thue, no one actually uses the nondeterminism
< 1268697204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: picture of a clown? <-- not "of": "by"
< 1268697208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Like I described it to Gregor: "It's a visualization of the positive and negative border; it's about finding frequent itemsets in data; and the thing that looks a bit like pi to the zeroth power with a hook on it is actually a snow leopard." <-- wth
< 1268697221 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most programming langaugges are turing complete, because it's very hard not to be
< 1268697229 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In fact, fi:lumileopardi (in the file name) is en:"snow leopard".
< 1268697231 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax's previous statement is not true.
< 1268697243 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which one ??
< 1268697253 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "very hard not to be part"
< 1268697254 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm
< 1268697256 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "very hard not to be" part
< 1268697269 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is hard not to be turing complete
< 1268697270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why
< 1268697279 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is easy to not be Turing complete.
< 1268697284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just put while(1) around almost anything and it becomes TC
< 1268697291 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's hard is to both be not Turing complete *and* be useful.
< 1268697303 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sql can do it
< 1268697308 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not too difficult to design HQ9+, really
< 1268697321 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be very surprised if some of the earliest incarnations of BASIC were TC ... like the guest said, no arrays, and most didn't even have scopes, making local variables useless and recursion impossible.
< 1268697321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_-
< 1268697322 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so guys
< 1268697332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's written proper regex engines?
< 1268697333 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone?
< 1268697340 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not me!
< 1268697350 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm well Gregor that's a good point if you have finite variables which are all fixed size integers :|
< 1268697353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Register machine, maybe?
< 1268697356 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's written stuff that abuses regexes
< 1268697359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ?
< 1268697361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's a sort of a "you had to be there" thing, but briefly... the lecturer kept on scribbling more things on top of the picture, and everyone was trying to follow; at some point he added that thing with no explanation at all. Something like 15 minutes later someone finally asked "what's that pi-like thing there", and he replied "it's a snow leopard". A beat panel, then lots of laughter.
< 1268697371 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there was a stack ?
< 1268697376 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe not..
< 1268697384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh
< 1268697391 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: BASIC did not have a stack initially.
< 1268697396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had GOTO.
< 1268697402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOSUB was a latter addition
< 1268697403 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gosub was an "innovation"
< 1268697434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, thus it follows that snow leopards have the value 1?
< 1268697437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no?
< 1268697445 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What picture is this?
< 1268697450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since they are equivalent to pi^0
< 1268697452 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, Gregor: On the other hand, that sort of BASICs (at least the ones I've used) tend to have PEEK and POKE. Of course it's still finite-sized, but so's the computer.
< 1268697455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is equal to 1
< 1268697470 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, PEEK and POKE make things ... odd.
< 1268697471 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: http://www.cis.hut.fi/~itniemin/lumileopardi.jpg
< 1268697489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the T supposed to be then?
< 1268697521 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: FACIES O_O
< 1268697522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEEK and POKE make it into definitely a register machine. Thus, it's TC if given infinite memory...
< 1268697527 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can draw a picture that's tcx
< 1268697529 0 :Guest31015!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tc
< 1268697541 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats that a picture of, fizzie
< 1268697545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The T and S have some sensible meanings there, though I've forgotten what they were. Pretty much everything else in the picture, except the snow leopard, has at least some sort of justification.
< 1268697560 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Here's a copy of my earlier description: "It's a visualization of the positive and negative border; it's about finding frequent itemsets in data; and the thing that looks a bit like pi to the zeroth power with a hook on it is actually a snow leopard."
< 1268697568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hard to imagine some of those
< 1268697577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, like those wavy lines