←2010-03-15 2010-03-16 2010-03-17→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:01 <Guest31015> or 9x above one of the points
00:00:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, what does "positive and negative border" mean here?
00:02:11 -!- Oranjer has joined.
00:02:21 <augur> interesting, fizzie. sort of.
00:02:51 <AnMaster> augur, correction: enlightening
00:02:56 <AnMaster> (if only I know of what)
00:03:52 <augur> :p
00:03:58 <Guest31015> :P
00:03:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: Hrm, well... let P be a set of patterns, S a subset of it, and define a partial order (denoted < for now) in S; now the positive border of S are such elements x of it that for all other elements y in P for which x < y, y is not in S.
00:04:57 <AnMaster> mhm
00:05:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: And the negative border are the elements x in P\S such that for all elements y in P such that y < x, y is in S. Or something like that anyway.
00:05:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay. But err, what is that useful for?
00:05:46 <AnMaster> briefly
00:05:50 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's not a very useful construction "in general", but it's useful for analysing the complexity of algorithms that try to find frequent patterns in P.
00:06:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: This was some sort of "data mining"-themed course.
00:06:11 <AnMaster> ah
00:07:15 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving).
00:07:59 <fizzie> Actually s/patterns/sets of items/; I don't think we made very much headway into finding actual patterns, just sets of items that tend to occur often together.
00:08:39 <fizzie> (And for some reason all the examples were about supermarket sales data, and finding out that people who buy beer also buy sausages, and vice versa.)
00:08:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:09:14 <AnMaster> mhm
00:09:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is rather strange, more varied examples would have been nicer
00:10:14 <fizzie> "Algorithmic methods of data mining P": "The course covers general topics in data mining, such as pattern discovery, clustering of data, and approximation of probability distributions. A special emphasis is put on algorithmic techniques to analyze discrete data."
00:11:00 <fizzie> Ha, the very first slideset of the course I opened -- https://noppa.tkk.fi/noppa/kurssi/t-61.5060/luennot/T-61_5060_04_frequent_sets.pdf -- starts with "Customer 1: mustard, sausage, beer, chips" (if you discount the title page).
00:11:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, what is the "P" in the title for?
00:11:22 <fizzie> P denotes "acceptable for postgraduate students".
00:11:22 <Deewiant> Postgraduate course
00:11:24 <Deewiant> I think
00:11:25 <Deewiant> Aye
00:11:44 <fizzie> Yes. It's the English version of the Finnish "L", which comes from... actually, where *does* it come from?
00:11:45 <AnMaster> ah
00:12:01 <AnMaster> "acceptable"?
00:12:11 <Deewiant> Acceptable for a Licenciate degree? :-P
00:12:16 <AnMaster> as in, you aren't allowed to attend such lectures otherwise?
00:12:28 <AnMaster> err
00:12:33 <AnMaster> I mean, attend other lectures
00:12:35 <AnMaster> than those
00:12:42 <Deewiant> You can, but you won't get any credit
00:12:43 <fizzie> You can, but you can't include them in the degree.
00:12:45 <fizzie> Right.
00:12:47 <AnMaster> ah
00:12:56 <fizzie> I'll let Deewiant do the explaining, he seems to be faster.
00:16:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:16:41 -!- jcp has joined.
00:16:42 <AnMaster> night
00:16:50 <oerjan> nice timing
00:17:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, ffs. IWC at you
00:17:35 <AnMaster> then night
00:24:48 -!- charlls has quit (Quit: Saliendo).
00:25:24 <Guest31015> how do two stacks emulate a tape?
00:25:56 <pikhq> Stack one is the elements before the tape head, stack two is the elements at and after the tape head.
00:26:17 <pikhq> You move forward by popping from 2 and pushing to 1, and back by popping from 1 and pushing to 2.
00:26:59 <oklopol> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6] where you're at alement 3 would be represented by ([2,1,0], 3, [4,5,6]), where [a1, a2, ...] is a stack where a1 is the top element
00:27:16 <Guest31015> Oh yeah!
00:27:21 <oklopol> you can also keep the 3 in one of the stacks ofc
00:27:29 <oklopol> like in pikhq's
00:27:33 <fizzie> oklopol: When you're at alement 3, have you had three beers?
00:27:39 <oklopol> :D
00:27:43 <oklopol> exactly
00:27:48 <pikhq> oklopol: I was presuming just a stack.
00:28:00 <pikhq> Erm. Just two stacks, and no other data structure.
00:28:34 <oklopol> right, i just thought that was the clearest way to explain the idea
00:29:02 <oklopol> the conversion isn't that complicated :)
00:31:19 <pikhq> Yes.
00:32:05 <oklopol> hmm hmm alementary operations
00:32:25 <oklopol> integer matrices are pretty sexy
00:33:23 <oerjan> fizzie: What a ridiculous stoutment.
00:38:03 <augur> oerjan
00:38:12 <augur> you're vaguely familiar with complexity, right?
00:38:33 <oerjan> slightly more than vaguely, i'd say
00:38:56 <augur> whats the relationship between complexity classes and the chomsky hierarchy
00:38:57 <oerjan> well, the basics anyway
00:39:22 <oerjan> augur: well, regular languages = finite automata = finite space
00:40:02 <augur> ok, so theres a relation between some of the complexity classes and the chomsky hierarchy
00:40:02 <oerjan> (although the finite space is not immediately obvious, needs a proof because you can still move around in the input tape of the TM)
00:40:26 <augur> so in a sense, complexity classes are a finer grain of hierarchy than the traditional chomsky hierarchy
00:40:41 <oerjan> augur: context free is within polynomial time, O(x^3)
00:40:47 <oerjan> augur: yes
00:40:54 <augur> ok, thats all i wanted to really know.
00:41:01 <augur> now heres another question
00:41:17 <oerjan> augur: context sensitive = linear space as i mentioned the other day
00:41:42 <augur> is there any work on translating complexity classes into formal language theoretic terms? e.g. whats a convenient way to characterize, lets say, AM, as a class of grammars
00:42:15 <oerjan> AM = arthur merlin? that's a bit beyond the basics but i've heard the name
00:42:24 <augur> yeah
00:42:30 <augur> i mean, it doesnt have to be AM
00:42:30 <augur> im just saying
00:42:42 <oerjan> augur: i recall wikipedia has a list of some correspondences beyond the basic chomsky
00:43:46 <augur> i know various kinds of like
00:43:56 <augur> formalizations of certain classes of languages
00:44:06 <oerjan> that table at the end of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy
00:44:09 <augur> so the mildly CS right
00:44:28 <augur> well, im aware of that table
00:44:29 <augur> believe me
00:44:40 <oerjan> you'd think :)
00:44:44 <fax> im gonna puke my guts out in a boiling rage
00:44:53 <augur> but what im not sure of is how THAT relates to the complexity classes
00:44:55 <augur> or vice versa
00:45:03 <augur> im a grammar nerd, so i want to see grammars
00:45:11 <augur> complexity means nothing to me without interesting characterizations
00:45:15 <augur> brb food
00:45:17 <fax> augur
00:45:28 <oerjan> oh hm right
00:46:55 <oerjan> augur: well some of the things listed under the automaton column are complexities: linear-bounded and finite
00:47:07 <oerjan> which i already mentioned
00:47:41 <oerjan> and Turing machine itself, although that's up in the computability part of the hierarchy
00:49:42 <oerjan> oh well, i don't know more than those listed (and not all those) anyway
00:50:39 <augur> ok thanks :)
00:50:43 * augur hugs oerjan :D
00:56:03 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:57:01 -!- fax has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
01:11:50 <Ilari> Heh. cd burning program tried to burn to hard disk. Luckily IDE HDD doesn't respond to burner commands.
01:15:39 <Guest31015> ughh I'm trying to emulate a pdp-11, but I am on a mac, and I only have an emulator for DOS, so I'm emulating DOS emulating Unix 7
01:16:45 <oerjan> Guest31015: <meme age="ancient">yo dawg</meme>
01:17:05 <Guest31015> ha
01:17:32 <Guest31015> I think I'm turning into Unix!
01:17:38 <Guest31015> ;login
01:17:44 <Guest31015> root
01:17:51 <Guest31015> root#
01:18:03 <uorygl> Guest31015: echo $PATH
01:18:35 <Guest31015> a
01:18:35 <Guest31015> a
01:18:36 <Guest31015> a
01:18:37 <Guest31015> a
01:18:49 <uorygl> Guest31015: ls /usr/bin
01:18:56 <Guest31015> I can't type a colon
01:19:05 <Guest31015> but it's bin, sbin and usr/bin
01:19:15 <Guest31015> i have to seel 5;
01:19:19 <Guest31015> *sleep
01:19:57 <Guest31015> root@
01:19:59 <Guest31015> root#
01:20:06 <uorygl> Darn those keyboards that can't type all ASCII characters.
01:20:20 <Guest31015> sh: Darn : command not found
01:20:53 <uorygl> #I'm still waiting for you to ls /usr/bin.
01:21:34 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
01:22:00 <Guest31015> grep cc cd pwd ssh telnet bash sh [
01:22:13 <Guest31015> root@
01:22:19 <Guest31015> root#
01:22:31 <Guest31015> aww screw it PS1="# "
01:22:37 <Guest31015> #
01:23:37 <uorygl> cc --help
01:24:26 <Guest31015> just compile yer code like this: cc "yer_code.c" -o "yer_executable"
01:24:41 <Guest31015> #
01:25:14 <uorygl> apt-get install apt-get
01:25:52 <Guest31015> sh: apt-get : I said unix not debian ( error -14 )
01:26:17 <uorygl> wget wget
01:26:31 <Guest31015> wget: couldn't resolve host
01:26:36 <Guest31015> @
01:26:38 <Guest31015> #
01:28:09 <Guest31015> #
01:28:20 <uorygl> #
01:28:27 <Guest31015> ls /
01:28:44 <uorygl> afs bin boot cdrom dev emul etc home initrd.img initrd.img.old lib lib32 lib64 media mnt opt proc root sbin selinux srv sys tmp usr var vmlinuz vmlinuz.old
01:28:54 <Guest31015> cat > hw.c
01:29:06 <uorygl>
01:29:18 <Guest31015> void main() { printf("Hello World!\n"); }
01:29:21 <Guest31015> ^D
01:29:34 <uorygl> #
01:29:39 <Guest31015> cc hw.c
01:29:44 <Guest31015> ./a.out
01:29:50 <uorygl> hw.c: In function ‘main’:
01:29:50 <uorygl> hw.c:1: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’
01:29:54 <uorygl> #
01:30:01 <uorygl> Hello World!
01:30:02 <uorygl> #
01:30:17 <Guest31015> rm -rf /*
01:30:23 <Guest31015> don't type that
01:30:24 <Guest31015> lol
01:30:37 -!- augur has joined.
01:30:44 <uorygl> Permission denied
01:30:50 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
01:30:53 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:31:04 <uorygl> #
01:31:13 <Guest31015> pwd
01:31:21 <uorygl> /home/ihope
01:31:34 <Guest31015> cd ..
01:31:35 <Guest31015> ls
01:31:45 <uorygl> ftran apollo firenze ihope kaelis kyevan maxite mbiswas muffin sine sophie syrra vamp wat
01:31:49 <uorygl> Oops.
01:31:54 <uorygl> aftran apollo firenze ihope kaelis kyevan maxite mbiswas muffin sine sophie syrra vamp wat
01:31:58 <oerjan> !unlambda ```.a.b`e`.c.d.e
01:32:01 <EgoBot> ac
01:32:13 <uorygl> #
01:32:43 <oerjan> !help languages
01:32:44 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
01:32:55 <Guest31015> su vamp
01:33:00 <Guest31015> ls ~
01:33:05 <uorygl> Password:
01:33:12 <Guest31015>
01:33:25 <uorygl> su: Authentication failure
01:33:44 <Guest31015> echo $SHELL
01:33:51 <Gregor> `run echo 'There is real UNIX on here, stop doing stupid fake UNIX.'
01:33:52 <HackEgo> There is real UNIX on here, stop doing stupid fake UNIX.
01:33:53 <uorygl> /bin/bash
01:34:08 <oerjan> Gregor: which unlambda implementation is EgoBot running?
01:34:13 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
01:34:15 <uorygl> Gregor: I'm not doing fake UNIX, I'm typing Guest31015's commands into a real command line.
01:34:20 <uorygl> After fully understanding them, of course.
01:34:21 <Gregor> oerjan: http://codu.org/projects/egobot/ :P
01:34:23 <Guest31015> oh really
01:34:27 <Guest31015> I was just pretending
01:34:29 <Guest31015> lol
01:34:35 <uorygl> I had guessed!
01:34:39 <Gregor> `run echo $SHELL
01:34:41 <HackEgo> /bin/sh
01:35:00 <uorygl> Gregor: so, is there some sample implementation of an ordinary Unix environment using Plash?
01:35:18 <uorygl> I.e. one that uses Plash to replicate what's already there.
01:35:37 <Gregor> uorygl: ... why would you replicate a system, when the normal system is already there?
01:36:26 <Guest31015> uname
01:36:45 <Gregor> oerjan: USED_VERSION says http://web.inf.tu-dresden.de/~bf3/unlambda/ 20060112
01:36:55 <Guest31015> uname
01:39:15 <uorygl> Gregor: as an example of how to use Plash.
01:39:30 <oerjan> Gregor: huh i hadn't seen that implementation before
01:39:41 <Gregor> oerjan: Do you have a recommendation?
01:39:46 <Gregor> uorygl: I have no idea what you mean.
01:40:04 <oerjan> Gregor: not at all, in fact it lacks the bug from the original C interpreter which i was testing :D
01:40:20 <Guest31015> C interpreter?
01:40:29 <Guest31015> that sounds difficult
01:40:32 <oerjan> Guest31015: unlambda interpreter in C
01:40:36 <Guest31015> ohh
01:40:38 <Gregor> !c printf("Hello, Guest31015!")
01:40:44 <EgoBot> Hello, Guest31015!
01:41:01 <Guest31015> !c printf("Hello Gregor!");
01:41:03 <EgoBot> Hello Gregor!
01:41:07 <Guest31015> woah
01:41:21 <Guest31015> what else does that interpret
01:41:32 <Gregor> That is not a C interpreter, it's just a frontend to gcc :P
01:41:33 <Gregor> !languages
01:41:40 <Gregor> Hm, or is it ...
01:41:41 <Gregor> !help languages
01:41:41 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
01:42:19 <Guest31015> !sh pwd
01:42:20 <EgoBot> /home/egobot/egobot.hg/multibot_cmds
01:42:29 <Guest31015> !sh ls /
01:42:31 <EgoBot> bin
01:42:55 <Gregor> HackEgo is a much-more-interesting implementation of the sh command, since it has a persistent filesystem.
01:43:26 <Guest31015> gee that there bot is real neat
01:43:44 <Gregor> Gee willikers, it is, innit?
01:44:00 <Guest31015> !c fprintf(stderr, "Does it print errors?");
01:44:02 <EgoBot> Does it print errors?
01:44:06 <Guest31015> Yes it does
01:45:02 <Guest31015> that thar robot must be real shiny
01:45:08 <Guest31015> and have beeping lights
01:45:28 <Gregor> Shhhh ... it is unaware that it's physically manifest, and we want to keep it that way.
01:45:35 <Guest31015> oh
01:45:55 <Guest31015> is hackego on this chan?
01:45:58 <pikhq> Why would a light beep?
01:46:12 <Gregor> `run echo 'Idonno, am I?'
01:46:14 <HackEgo> Idonno, am I?
01:46:20 <pikhq> 1c printf("Hello, the name is HackEgo.\n");
01:46:20 <pikhq> Erm.
01:46:20 <Guest31015> to show if it got dem internets and megabits and what now?
01:46:21 <pikhq> `c printf("Hello, the name is HackEgo.\n");
01:46:23 <HackEgo> No output.
01:46:29 <Gregor> pikhq: Fail :P
01:46:31 <Guest31015> `c ls
01:46:32 <HackEgo> No output.
01:46:38 <Guest31015> `sh ls
01:46:39 <pikhq> Oh, no c command on HackEgo? Should fix that when I'm not-lazy.
01:46:40 <HackEgo> No output.
01:46:50 <Guest31015> `sh ls
01:46:52 <HackEgo> No output.
01:46:54 <Guest31015> huh
01:47:00 <Guest31015> `sh help commands
01:47:02 <HackEgo> No output.
01:47:07 <Gregor> Ignore pikhq's fekked-up command.
01:47:12 <Gregor> I gave the proper command.
01:47:28 <pikhq> `help
01:47:29 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
01:47:42 <Guest31015> `run ls
01:47:43 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.21222 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
01:47:48 <Guest31015> `run pwd
01:47:49 <HackEgo> /tmp/hackenv.21263
01:48:09 <Guest31015> `run tty
01:48:12 <HackEgo> not a tty
01:48:14 <Gregor> You can also see the remainder of various failed hacking attempts in there :P
01:48:25 <Guest31015> `cat test.sh
01:48:27 <HackEgo> echo POOP! && sh ./test.sh
01:48:44 <Guest31015> `cat hack_gregor
01:48:46 <HackEgo> echo Gregor hacked.
01:48:53 <Ilari> What, that wunderbar_emporeum isn't so wunderbar? :->
01:48:56 <Guest31015> ./hack_gregor
01:49:02 <Gregor> Ilari: Doesn't work in Plash.
01:49:09 <Guest31015> `./hack_gregor
01:49:11 <HackEgo> No output.
01:49:17 <Guest31015> `run ./hack_gregor
01:49:19 <HackEgo> No output.
01:49:32 <Gregor> Guest31015: Did I mention "FAILED"
01:49:51 <pikhq> Gregor: What about it doesn't work? The port-opening?
01:49:58 <Guest31015> `run echo $HELL
01:50:00 <HackEgo> No output.
01:50:01 <Gregor> pikhq: I refuse to say :P
01:50:04 <Guest31015> `run echo $SHELl
01:50:06 <HackEgo> No output.
01:50:08 <Guest31015> DAMMIT
01:50:13 <Guest31015> `run echo $SHELL
01:50:15 <HackEgo> /bin/sh
01:50:16 <pikhq> Hah.
01:50:58 <Guest31015> `run printf "#!/bin/sh \n echo Guest Hacked "
01:51:00 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo Guest Hacked
01:51:04 <oerjan> `sh hack_gregor
01:51:05 <HackEgo> Gregor hacked.
01:51:19 <Guest31015> `run printf "#!/bin/sh \n echo Guest Hacked " > Guest_hacked
01:51:21 <HackEgo> No output.
01:51:28 <Gregor> Being able to run a trivial shell script is kind of irrelevant :P
01:51:28 <Guest31015> `run chmod 777 Guest_hacked
01:51:30 <HackEgo> No output.
01:51:41 <Guest31015> `run ./Guest_hacked
01:51:43 <HackEgo> Guest Hacked
01:51:46 <Guest31015> YAY
01:53:19 <pikhq> No hacking done. Just designed behavior. :)
01:53:50 <Guest31015> yeah but running a shell script is the first step :P
01:53:55 <Guest31015> g2gbye
01:53:59 <Guest31015> be back later
01:54:06 <Guest31015> keep those two lovely bots up
01:54:14 <Guest31015> they are a charm
01:54:14 <pikhq> Not in a crazy sandbox. ;)
01:54:21 -!- Guest31015 has left (?).
02:00:03 <Gregor> Ah yes, we'll see you again, some anonymous Comcast person.
02:05:09 <coppro> `run rm Guest_hacked
02:05:11 <HackEgo> No output.
02:06:10 <coppro> Uh, I forget. Is HackEgo one of those 'please treat it nicely' bots, or one of those 'please try to break it' bots?
02:06:25 <pikhq> coppro: It's one of those "good luck breaking it" bots.
02:06:32 <coppro> fun
02:06:47 <pikhq> Worst case scenario, Gregor has to revert to a previous revision.
02:06:52 <oerjan> Gregor only makes those kinds of bots these days
02:06:55 <pikhq> (it's version controlled)
02:08:33 -!- songhead95 has joined.
02:08:38 <songhead95> Hello
02:08:46 <songhead95> I was just guest17*
02:08:58 <songhead95> `run ls
02:08:59 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.22425 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1
02:09:00 <oerjan> no way!
02:09:12 <songhead95> way!
02:09:25 <oerjan> _completely_ different number
02:09:33 <songhead95> huh?
02:09:47 <oerjan> (31015)
02:10:06 <songhead95> I was the guest who pretended to be unix, than used unix, then played with the bots, then complimented the bots
02:11:00 <oerjan> you don't need to tell us. we have means to get information...
02:11:04 * oerjan cackles evilly
02:11:17 <oerjan> aka join messages.
02:11:59 <songhead95> `run echo $HOME
02:12:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot
02:12:12 <songhead95> `run echo $HOME
02:12:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot
02:12:24 <songhead95> `run ls /home
02:12:26 <HackEgo> hackbot
02:12:33 <songhead95> `run ls /home
02:12:35 <HackEgo> hackbot
02:12:39 <songhead95> `run ls /
02:12:40 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr
02:13:04 <songhead95> no root?
02:13:04 <Gregor> You can do that in private messages, btw.
02:13:10 <songhead95> oh
02:13:11 <songhead95> yeah
02:14:19 <songhead95> I am an extreme irc noob
02:14:30 <Gregor> We've gathered that.
02:14:42 <songhead95> :(
02:15:24 <Gregor> Apparently "we've gathered that" is an insult
02:15:40 <songhead95> no I am just sad at my own noobishness
02:15:43 <oerjan> don't worry, we don't mind noobs
02:16:19 <oerjan> several of us may have been noobs at one time or another
02:17:10 <songhead95> I've been a noob since I started
02:17:22 <Gregor> Others, such as myself, are the result of a stable time loop, and as a result began our existence with full knowledge of IRC attained from the future.
02:17:42 <songhead95> ...do you die?
02:18:04 <Gregor> No, I travel back in time, which also reverses the aging process, and asserts my existence in the year 2002.
02:19:33 <songhead95> I want to be like you, if I master IRC and time travel, then travel back in time before I started IRC to teach myself IRC and time travel, will I begin the loop?
02:19:54 <Gregor> A time loop cannot be begun, it either exists or it does not. The past is already in the past, it cannot be changed.
02:20:30 <songhead95> aww man
02:21:21 <Gregor> Sorry! I didn't invent physics!
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03:10:45 <uorygl> So, I think I'd like to pretend to be UNIX again.
03:11:04 <Gregor> uname -a
03:11:23 <uorygl> Gregor: well, Plash takes away the filesystem and replaces it with a fake filesystem, right? I want to see a fake Plash filesystem that acts just like a real one.
03:11:45 <uorygl> Linux thay 2.6.30-2-amd64 #1 SMP Mon Dec 7 05:21:45 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
03:11:45 <uorygl> $
03:12:20 <Gregor> uorygl: Plash doesn't "take away" the filesystem, it stands between the program and the real filesystem. Usually real parts of the filesystem are mapped directly into Plash.
03:12:54 <uorygl> Okay then, one that gives no access to the real filesystem and instead gives access to a fake one that acts like a real one.
03:13:36 <uorygl> Or I could just admit that I'm suffering from Demanding Something That Isn't What I Really Want Syndrome.
03:15:26 <uorygl> Maybe I should examine how HackBot is implemented.
03:15:51 <uorygl> And so, that thing I wanted to do to Hackiki, I might do to HackBot instead. :P
03:16:01 <uorygl> About how big is HackBot? Does it share any code with Hackiki?
03:25:12 <Gregor> HackBot shares no code with Hackiki.
03:25:25 <Gregor> It's smaller than Hackiki, IIRC.
03:25:27 <Gregor> One sec.
03:26:12 <Gregor> It's ~500 lines of C and shell.
03:26:16 <Gregor> The C is purely IRC interaction.
03:26:39 <Gregor> Ohnowait, there's also C to throttle guest programs.
03:26:45 <Gregor> But it's unnecessary.
03:27:37 <Gregor> Basically, it's multibot (a very simple IRC bot) with some shell scripts that bind that to plash.
03:27:45 <Gregor> The shell scripts are about 175 lines.
03:27:59 <Gregor> Multibot is about 200 lines.
03:28:25 <uorygl> So does HackBot do anything with repositories?
03:29:10 <Gregor> Yeah, basic same idea has Hackiki, but all in shell.
03:31:26 <uorygl> So there's a bit of functionality overlap but no code overlap.
03:31:27 <Gregor> Wow, worst wording ever.
03:31:30 <Gregor> Yes.
03:31:38 <Gregor> Yeah, basically same idea as Hackiki, but all in shell.
03:32:33 <uorygl> I guess I should look at one or the other.
03:32:52 <Gregor> Hackiki is more recent.
03:34:13 <pikhq> uorygl: rm -rf /
03:34:38 <uorygl> pikhq: Permission denied
03:35:46 <oerjan> it's not fair!
03:36:52 <uorygl> It's very fair.
03:37:28 <oerjan> but it discriminates against evil people!
03:41:38 <uorygl> No it doesn't.
03:41:44 <uorygl> Evil people have the same rights as non-evil people.
03:41:55 <uorygl> Just like how gay people have the same rights as straight people.
03:42:12 <oerjan> but it prevents evil actions!
03:42:22 <uorygl> But it doesn't prevent evil people!
03:42:30 <uorygl> So, no discrimination.
03:42:43 <oerjan> that would be like saying that gay people have the same right as anyone to have sex, as long as it is with the opposite sex
03:42:49 <uorygl> Precisely!
03:43:06 <oerjan> and that would _clearly_ be discrimination.
03:43:52 <uorygl> If we said gay people are only allowed to have gay sex and straight people are only allowed to have straight sex, THAT would be discrimination.
03:44:22 <oerjan> well i'm not asking for evil people to only be able to do evil actions here, am i?
03:44:33 <oerjan> after all that would make deception hard
03:44:39 <uorygl> Well, no.
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03:57:52 * uorygl ponders what he wants in this awesome nomic thing.
03:58:04 <coppro> Agora
03:58:12 <coppro> the answer is always Agora
03:58:21 <uorygl> Agora isn't even a codenomic!
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05:10:03 <uorygl> `run echo "My name is overloaded; I'll have to kick someone off" | sha256sum
05:10:04 <HackEgo> 2912b1f1f1301a0d4e14416e07d7a56bee0522e7b423cde610909f5191b9bd3e -
05:10:16 <uorygl> `run echo -n "My name is overloaded; I'll have to kick someone off" | sha256sum
05:10:17 <HackEgo> caaf3e65344624e7659aaf228f62f93faae680f71adc868a6f8da880388b12f9 -
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05:59:31 <coppro> ffff
05:59:55 <coppro> how the fuck is this guy a schoolteacher
06:07:13 <pikhq> coppro: ?
06:07:31 <coppro> some guy on an open-source project I also work on
06:07:35 <coppro> I refuse to say we work together
06:07:36 <coppro> because we don
06:07:38 <pikhq> Mmm.
06:07:38 <coppro> *don't
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10:22:56 * oklopol tries out coppro's patented conversational tactics
10:23:02 <oklopol> lol, i can't believe this dude!
10:23:14 <coppro> hey, that's my intellectual property there
10:23:15 <oklopol> i can't believe i just witnessed that...
10:23:45 <oklopol> sorry
10:31:22 <coppro> :P
10:31:48 <coppro> I just enjoy venting my frustrations, excitements, and other things into this channel
10:33:15 <coppro> also, apparently, going to be 4 hours before I wake up :/
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10:34:18 <tehz> not much going on here?
10:35:03 <coppro> correct
10:35:11 <tehz> thought so.
10:35:23 <tehz> cya
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10:41:30 <oklopol> :D
10:42:04 <oklopol> venting frustrations is okay, i just like BULLYING PEOPLE.
10:42:18 <oklopol> gotta go hear this lecture thing now
10:58:27 -!- TehZ has joined.
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10:59:07 <TehZ> If you are bored, you could take a look at lolcode
10:59:11 <TehZ> its funny
11:00:41 <TehZ> Im making a programming language with .:,;'"* as its only characters
11:00:57 <TehZ> a Object Oriented programming language
11:01:34 <TehZ> either 1: Much chatlag or 2: nobody's on
11:01:51 -!- TehZ has quit (Client Quit).
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11:13:44 <TehZ> So, which languages have u ppl made?
11:13:55 <lereah_> Lazy Bird
11:14:03 <lereah_> And the Love Machine 9000
11:14:08 <lereah_> (also called NTCM)
11:14:16 <TehZ> Checking them out
11:14:18 -!- TehZ has quit (Client Quit).
11:14:41 -!- TehZ has joined.
11:14:51 <TehZ> Cant connect to the wiki right now
11:15:15 <TehZ> Well, i made Reversible-2D
11:15:25 -!- TehZ has quit (Client Quit).
11:15:42 -!- TehZ has joined.
11:15:50 <TehZ> right now, my browser is stupid
11:16:34 <lereah_> Use mIRC
11:16:37 <lereah_> Or something
11:16:53 <TehZ> I didnt see that one in google chrome plugin page
11:17:42 <lereah_> It is not a plugin
11:17:53 <TehZ> Isnt it? Google searching
11:17:55 -!- TehZ has quit (Client Quit).
11:18:31 -!- TehZ has joined.
11:18:35 <TehZ> Found it, installing
11:18:36 -!- TehZ has quit (Client Quit).
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11:22:10 * magari enters
11:23:03 <lereah_> Hello
11:23:25 -!- TehZ has joined.
11:23:37 <TehZ> Couldnt get mirc to work
11:23:48 <TehZ> any ideas for a programming language?
11:24:09 <lereah_> Yeah
11:24:18 <TehZ> k, what?
11:24:44 <TehZ> chatlag?
11:24:58 <lereah_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
11:25:03 -!- TehZ has quit (Client Quit).
11:25:11 <lereah_> Never implemented it :3
11:25:16 -!- TehZ has joined.
11:25:19 <TehZ> Checking it out
11:25:21 -!- TehZ has quit (Client Quit).
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11:26:44 <TehZ> uhmm
11:27:01 <TehZ> i dont understand that language....
11:28:08 <lereah_> It's just a bunch of functional languages
11:28:08 <TehZ> It is nearly as unreadable as my unfinished (and unpublished) language; DotsOO
11:28:41 <TehZ> Uhm, do you live in europe or usa?
11:28:49 <lereah_> Europe.
11:28:52 <TehZ> cauz this chatlag is irritating
11:28:58 <TehZ> im in europe too
11:29:34 <TehZ> Either the server is slow, the server is in USA, or both.
11:30:19 <TehZ> Do you feel like there is chatlag too?
11:30:46 <lereah_> No.
11:30:55 <TehZ> Really?
11:31:13 <lereah_> How do you know there's chatlag?
11:31:26 <TehZ> it takes a long time to get an answer
11:31:30 <TehZ> really long
11:31:42 <lereah_> It may be that I don't anszer right away
11:31:50 <TehZ> k
11:32:06 <TehZ> lets test it: I write Test, and you answer with Test, k?
11:32:31 <TehZ> Test
11:32:40 <magari> irc clients have ping functions for a reason
11:32:55 <TehZ> im a little new to IRC
11:33:41 <TehZ> you ping by doing what?
11:34:01 <magari> depends on the client
11:34:02 <lereah_> Right click
11:34:13 <lereah_> Look at the menu
11:34:21 <magari> 04:57 [ctcp!TehZ] PING 1268737056 202884
11:34:21 <magari> 04:57 CTCP PING reply from TehZ: 0.514 seconds
11:34:27 <magari> /ping user
11:34:35 <magari> thats really quick
11:34:38 <TehZ> k
11:34:39 <magari> and I'm in the US
11:34:45 <magari> well
11:34:47 <magari> my client is
11:34:54 <magari> my terminal is in afghanistan
11:35:12 <TehZ> omg
11:35:42 <TehZ> Europe -> afghanistan -> Usa -> afghanistan -> Europe?
11:37:15 <TehZ> maybe i should continue working on DotsOO
11:37:44 <magari> uh...
11:37:51 <TehZ> what?
11:37:52 <magari> depends on the freenode server your connected to
11:38:00 <TehZ> maybe
11:38:09 <TehZ> cya
11:38:09 <magari> it does
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15:58:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, another panorama soon, for this one I balanced the mobile phone on an armrest and rotated it around that point, result is that it is a fairly "boring" 180° panorama of a corridor.
16:00:07 * AnMaster is resuming the laptop with the photos and hugin project on from sleep atm
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17:16:35 <uorygl> Hang it by a thread from the ceiling!
17:32:23 <AnMaster> uorygl, what? the phone?
17:32:28 <uorygl> Yes.
17:32:37 <AnMaster> uorygl, the images are low quality anyway
17:33:14 <AnMaster> anyway, doing photometric optimisation atm
17:33:17 <AnMaster> that might take a while
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17:59:33 <augur> quick!
17:59:37 <augur> someone who knows about compsci!
17:59:41 <augur> i need your assisstance!
18:01:20 -!- fax has joined.
18:02:04 <ais523> augur: issue?
18:02:20 <augur> i need test graphs that have known maximum cliques
18:02:30 <augur> so i can test a maximum clique algorithm
18:02:39 <ais523> hmm, that's not the area of compsci that I work in, unfortunately
18:02:46 <ais523> does the web not help?
18:02:57 <fax> are they hard to generate?
18:02:58 <augur> no :(
18:03:10 <augur> fax: finding the max clique of a graph is NP complete
18:03:22 <fax> so? :/
18:03:35 <augur> so its hard!
18:03:38 <ais523> hmm, if a problem is NP, its reverse is normally P
18:03:42 <ais523> by definition
18:03:44 * fax doesn't see how you got that
18:03:50 <ais523> but it rather depends on what "reverse" means
18:03:51 <augur> NP complete is hard!
18:04:07 <ais523> besides, even exponential algorithms can run quickly on small enough data sets
18:04:38 <augur> true, but i need it to run on large graphs :)
18:05:11 <augur> with upwards of 5000 words
18:05:18 <augur> maybe even 10000! or 100000!
18:05:26 <augur> not factorial, mind you.
18:05:40 <fax> though nurikabe is NP and generating puzzles for that is hard
18:05:47 <fax> and making sokoban puzzles is an art
18:05:58 <augur> i'd make _your_ sokoban puzzle
18:06:01 <augur> if you know what i mean
18:06:02 <augur> ;o ;o ;o
18:06:48 <ais523> fax: generating random Sokoban puzzles is something I'm interested in myself
18:06:49 <augur> i need test graphs tho
18:07:05 <augur> so satisfy to myself that i havent just proven that P = NP
18:07:05 <augur> :P
18:07:10 <ais523> not necessarily particularly good ones, but they can't be trivial
18:07:20 <ais523> augur: do you have a P-time algo, or think you do?
18:07:34 <ais523> it's probably easier to poke holes in the algo by looking at it than by trying to create test graphs
18:07:49 <augur> its P on complete graphs up to 300 nodes, or so it looks
18:07:59 <augur> i _dont_ know if its P on non-complete graphs.
18:08:04 <ais523> maximum clique for complete graphs is easy
18:08:11 <augur> true ;)
18:08:15 <fax> ais523, I make a game called 'multiban', which is sokoban with n-players (over the internet)
18:08:19 <augur> its especially easy if you know its a complete graph!
18:08:25 <augur> but i dont assume that it is.
18:08:32 <augur> the question is what its runtime is on non-complete graphs
18:08:55 <fax> it's great fun because the game really is about collective thought -- but you run out of levels quickly :(
18:09:01 <augur> and since theres a LOT of graphs with n nodes, this is not an easy thing for me to check
18:09:17 <augur> infact, theres like
18:09:26 <augur> what 2^(n^2) graphs with n nodes?
18:09:44 <augur> adjacency matrix is n^2, and each of the cells can be filled or not, so 2^(n^2)
18:10:14 <augur> or 2^(0.5 n^2) if you require that the graph is undirected
18:10:53 <ais523> anyway, here's a test case from Wikipedia: abcdaedfecfgbfega
18:11:03 <ais523> (I take it you're familiar with Eodermdrome graph notation?)
18:11:13 <augur> no
18:11:25 <fax> :O
18:11:33 <ais523> but this is #esoteric!
18:11:38 <fax> OH MY GOD THIS IS AWESOME
18:11:41 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/eodermdrome
18:11:42 <fax> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eodermdrome
18:11:44 <fax> hehee
18:11:45 <augur> yes im there now :P
18:11:58 -!- tombom has joined.
18:11:58 <augur> you're so narcisistic, ais523 :P
18:12:15 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure if I translated it properly from the Wikipedia article, but it's so much easier to send over IRC than trying to send a graph normally
18:12:26 <augur> can you give this graph to me in non-eodermdrome notation? :P
18:12:36 * fax how to pronounce Eodermdrome
18:12:59 <augur> or is it just that adjacency in the string = adjacency in the graph?
18:13:05 * ais523 pronounces it "E. O. derm drome"
18:13:07 <ais523> augur: that's it
18:13:09 <augur> ok
18:13:22 <ais523> I've only ever seen the word written, though
18:13:49 <ais523> it was originally coined in a wordplay book, to try to create a minimal-length word that lead to a nonplanar graph
18:18:01 <augur> ais523: i presume this graph is not directed, yes?
18:18:08 <ais523> yep, undirected
18:18:16 <augur> ok
18:20:28 <augur> btw, which graph is this that you found? like, where is it on the wiki page
18:20:43 <ais523> top-right corner
18:20:51 <ais523> on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=Clique_problem
18:20:57 <augur> oh ok, the bluedots one
18:21:08 <augur> wheres it say this is known to be hard?
18:21:19 <ais523> the graph? or the problem?
18:21:24 <augur> the graph
18:21:57 <ais523> it isn't known to be hard; it's just known to have a maximum clique of 4
18:22:08 <ais523> and that's what you asked for
18:22:15 <ais523> graphs with known maximum cliques
18:22:19 <augur> oh. no i need lots of test cases tho :p
18:22:57 <ais523> generate them at random? by definition, you can test if an answer to an NP-complete problem is correct in P-time
18:23:00 <augur> not just _one_ but lots of them, with lots nodes, so i can test the algorithm
18:23:27 <augur> i dont know how to generate these things at random.
18:23:36 <fax> augur, why don't you just prove the algorithm correct?
18:23:38 <ais523> graphs? that's trivial
18:23:41 <augur> i dont know how to, fax!
18:23:52 <augur> ais523: well, i could generate _graphs_ at random
18:24:03 <fax> did you just implement a random algorithm them realize it solves an NP problem in P? :)))
18:24:05 <augur> but i need to make sure that the algorithm isnt just hitting easy graphs
18:24:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are a few seems, but way less than in the one yesterday. Some image data at the edges is cut, and a few tiny (5x10 pixels or so) holes along some edges was filled in in gimp) http://omploader.org/vM3VvNA
18:24:31 <augur> no, i implemented the algorithm intended to solve one problem, and then a prof at the school pointed out that it seems to be solving the maximum clique problem
18:24:54 <augur> so its not a _random_ algorithm
18:24:54 <augur> :p
18:25:25 <fax> hmm
18:25:26 <ais523> augur: why don't you just show us the algorithm, and we can find flaws in it / show it isn't P-time?
18:25:46 <augur> but then you'll steal my discovery! D:
18:25:48 <ais523> if it really did solve the maximum clique problem in P-time, your prof would have claimed the money for himself already
18:25:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, irritatingly enblend placed the seam over that door so a blurry image of it was included. There is another sharper image of it..
18:25:59 <augur> i didnt show him the algorithm
18:26:03 <augur> just the description of the original problem
18:26:10 <augur> i havent mentioned that i think its PTIME.
18:26:14 <augur> im not _that_ stupid
18:26:21 <augur> "lol i proved P = NP 8D"
18:26:23 * fax decided that
18:27:03 <augur> ill show you guys the algo when i get back. i have to go pick up some cookies.
18:27:11 <augur> be back in an hour or two
18:27:12 <augur> <3
18:27:25 <AnMaster> strange, getting to the cookie jar taking that long
18:27:42 <augur> no, these cookies were delivered
18:27:44 <fax> augur is in no rush
18:27:56 <AnMaster> huh
18:27:57 <augur> and are sitting in a UPS depot in Laurel, MD
18:28:02 <AnMaster> I hate UPS
18:28:09 <AnMaster> bbl
18:28:12 <augur> http://www.cherylandco.com/ << this kind. gooood cookies.
18:28:13 <fax> wow augur, it must be hard to get cookies where you are
18:28:24 <augur> yeah
18:28:25 <augur> its...
18:28:25 <uorygl> They weren't delivered very well.
18:28:26 <augur> P HARD
18:28:28 <augur> 8D
18:28:37 <fax> lol
18:28:45 <uorygl> PSPACE-hard.
18:28:58 <augur> shut your face you ruined my joke
18:29:05 <ais523> PSPACE-complete is the bounded equivalent of TC, isn't it?
18:29:19 <AnMaster> cookie jar hard?
18:29:21 <uorygl> Something like that.
18:29:24 <AnMaster> bbl really
18:29:38 <uorygl> There was a paper titled "Sokoban is PSPACE-complete" that essentially showed that you can make a Sokoban computer.
18:29:58 <uorygl> Yay, my computer is PSPACE-complete. :P
18:30:15 <ais523> uorygl: strangely, someone linked me to that a few days ago
18:31:26 <uorygl> Speaking of linking to stuff: http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/
18:31:52 <uorygl> Jaap
18:31:59 <uorygl> Jaap's Puzzle Page, the most important page ever.
18:32:56 <ais523> uorygl: because?
18:33:23 <uorygl> Well, it isn't really.
18:34:14 <ais523> augur: anyway, write a P-time algorithm for checking if an alleged clique is in fact maximal
18:34:54 <ais523> (that's easy: check all subsets of the graph that are one element larger than the alleged clique to see if they're cliqued; that's P-time with a rather horrible exponent)
18:35:30 <fax> 7"the most important page ever" lol
18:38:46 <ais523> hmm, what complexity class is finding a maximal cycle in a graph?
18:38:55 <uorygl> Little did fax know that eir subconscious had begun counting down to eir death. Eir next typo will involve the number 6.
18:41:33 * fax terabytes oowriggle
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19:08:44 <hiato> Hey all, got a new esolang, and I'm struggling to write a quine in it. Does a language have to be TC to have quines?
19:09:05 <Deewiant> HQ9+ has quines and isn't TC
19:09:17 <hiato> But that is a language feature. Ok, non-trivial quines
19:09:41 <uorygl> Still no.
19:09:42 <Deewiant> Probably not, but I can't prove it.
19:09:57 <fax> hiato new esao lang?
19:09:57 <uorygl> Take any language with a quine. Figure out how much memory it uses. Restrict it to that much memory.
19:10:03 <hiato> Ok, cool, then I guess it's programmer error here :P
19:10:16 <hiato> uorygl: Right, but that requires a quine to reduce the memory
19:10:23 <hiato> fax: yep, I'll upload the spec now :)
19:10:24 <Deewiant> Well, that doesn't imply that your language has quines
19:10:37 <pikhq> No, but I seem to recall a proof that a TC language with output capabilities sufficient to output itself must have a quine.
19:10:56 <fax> it's pretty much one quine that you can rewrite into whatever language
19:11:12 <uorygl> hiato: well, the language with the memory restricted, which is not TC, still has a quine.
19:11:15 <hiato> there was something about fix point thereom, but I can't remember what it meant or why it was important
19:11:30 <uorygl> So, a non-TC language with a non-trivial quine.
19:11:49 <hiato> uorygl: well, memory isn't really the issue here, it's string stuff and delimeters, actually, only delimeters
19:11:56 * uorygl shrugs.
19:12:00 <pikhq> C has quines, and C is not TC.
19:12:10 <uorygl> Heh, lovely C.
19:12:31 <hiato> pikhq: right, but it can easily operate on strings, and it has the augmented print function %c, %i etc
19:12:42 <fax> C is not TC?
19:12:56 <pikhq> fax: Mandated finite memory.
19:13:08 * hiato thinks it's probably best to keep quite about this now, sign, C again
19:13:28 <hiato> fax: there was that "discussion" under bit-bit-jump
19:13:37 <hiato> iirc
19:15:34 <pikhq> fax: Pointers must be a multiple-of-char size. A char must have a bound, and that bound must be storable in a char. Thus, C has finite memory. QED.
19:18:25 <hiato> http://dpaste.com/172601/
19:18:30 <fax> http://www.jaapsch.net/puzzles/morph.htm
19:18:48 <hiato> sorry, the explanation is terrible, but the source should clear it up
19:21:39 <hiato> the problem is that # (as a string, so as to avoid execution) needs to be escaped viz., :# Then, : needs to be escaped and it's a horrible route from there on in
19:24:02 <hiato> unless I'm going about it in the wrong manner, and perhaps the stack should hold individual tokens instead of strings
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19:24:28 <TehZ> No chat? :(
19:24:50 <pikhq> 何?
19:24:51 <augur> heyo
19:25:03 <pikhq> それが本当にチャネルだ!
19:25:07 <TehZ> "何?"??????
19:25:16 <pikhq> Sorry.
19:25:21 <TehZ> np
19:25:27 <pikhq> Switching from Japanese manga to English chatroom = possible confusion.
19:25:28 <pikhq> :P
19:25:41 <fax> uorygl uragirl?
19:25:57 <fax> I have to find some puzzles for you
19:25:58 <augur> ok who wants to see my little algo now?
19:26:16 <uorygl> What, people manage to make that mistake even with this spelling of my name? :P
19:26:45 <uorygl> la uorygl nakni
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19:27:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's a very long-looking corridor.
19:28:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is very long
19:29:08 * hiato cannot believe someone would have the time to do this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupper%27s_self-referential_formula
19:29:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, to the right it continues for another, wider, "section" like the one I took the photo in.
19:29:38 <AnMaster> err
19:29:40 <AnMaster> not wider, longer
19:29:42 <AnMaster> I meant
19:31:25 <hiato> well, it seems that Quine -> TC may not hold, but TC -> quine does : "By the fixed point theorems in logic, such a program exists in any Turing-complete language in which printing..."
19:31:43 <AnMaster> * hiato cannot believe someone would have the time to do this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupper%27s_self-referential_formula <--- .... wow...
19:32:10 <hiato> AnMaster: Yep, I'm still picking my jaw up. I mean, I knew you could do relations, but encoding bitmaps?
19:32:27 <AnMaster> hiato, well, plotting relations is common.
19:32:33 <fax> uorygl, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONYN8yAEfpA http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzgnpf2URhQ http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/42/Haberdasher-anm-01.gif
19:32:34 <AnMaster> well, not as common as functions
19:32:35 <AnMaster> bbl
19:35:48 <uorygl> I'll use the fact that I'm unimpressed by Tupper's self-referential formula as a status symbol. :P
19:36:09 <fax> how can you not be impressed by that? Do you know how to make it?
19:36:26 <uorygl> More or less.
19:36:58 <fax> i guess it's basically a less elegant and 2D version of godels beta function...
19:38:42 <fax> oh! "The formula was first published in his 2001 SIGGRAPH paper that discusses methods related to the GrafEq formula-graphing program he developed."
19:38:48 <fax> I learned taylor series from this program
19:41:41 <fax> uorygl did you see the links I gave you
19:45:49 <fax> :[
19:47:15 <augur> guys
19:47:29 <augur> should i use haskellish notation for my algorithm, even tho its written impertively?
19:55:14 <hiato> augur, I'm not sure that makes terribly that much sense to me
19:55:29 <augur> :p
19:55:32 * hiato ok, that is how not to write a sentence
19:55:40 <hiato> (mine that is)
19:56:28 <hiato> and augur, what is exactly is your algorithm?
19:57:06 <augur> a relativized maximal clique algo
19:57:36 <hiato> right. sure it is. does it make coffee? otheriwse I would say your deltas are off a tad
19:58:30 <uorygl> Relativized, you say?
20:00:28 <augur> yes
20:00:31 <augur> relativized.
20:00:48 <augur> that is, the largest clique that some node is in
20:00:58 <augur> not the largest clique in the graph but just the largest clique a given node is in
20:01:11 <uorygl> Couldn't you find that by dropping the node and all the nodes it's not connected to?
20:03:45 <fax> uorygl?!??!?!?!?
20:04:12 <fax> geez I went and looked it up in my book for you and you're just ignoring me
20:06:26 <fax> wanker
20:08:44 <fax> uorygl fuck you
20:08:55 <augur> uorygl: no, because that doesnt mean that they form a clique
20:10:36 <augur> uorygl: http://wellnowwhat.net/linguistics/node-relative%20maximal%20clique.pdf
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20:12:29 <fax> don't youknow it's rude to ignore people
20:13:19 <augur> i need to go buy some spraypaint. bbiaf guys <3
20:13:29 <uorygl> I mean by doing that and then finding the maximal clique of the result.
20:13:37 <augur> ey?
20:13:58 <augur> oh, you mean taking the subgraph of G that contains the node and all its neighbors
20:14:11 <augur> (and thus all the edges that only include those neighbors)
20:14:28 <augur> and then finding the maximum clique in that?
20:14:35 <uorygl> The subgraph that contains the node's neighbors only, not the node itself.
20:14:43 <augur> that still doesnt guarantee it, because the biggest clique in that might not include the node itself
20:14:58 * fax wonders how uorygl leaned to be such a bastard
20:15:05 <augur> no but it must, right
20:15:10 <augur> sure then i guess that would work
20:15:18 <augur> if you included the node, crucially
20:15:20 <uorygl> Surely any clique in that can be extended to include the node itself.
20:15:28 <augur> right
20:15:34 <augur> anyway, check out the algo while im off doing stuff
20:15:36 <augur> see ya <3
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20:32:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, any such corridors at your university btw?
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20:33:42 <fizzie> I guess the main building corridors look a bit like that, though not quite that.. how should I put it, open.
20:34:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think the eqvirectangular (?) projection is partly to blame for that
20:35:10 <AnMaster> equirectangular that is
20:35:17 <AnMaster> (just checked the spelling)
20:35:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, not that cylindrical projection looks much better, and rectilinear is just not feasible with that fov
20:38:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, according to hugin I have ~185° fov
20:39:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually more (214), but not all was usable
20:41:29 <AnMaster> (not usable, as in photo ends up looking not very nice due to corridor not being in "center")
20:41:49 <AnMaster> (oh and all there was to see was the power cable to my laptop lying over a table basically
20:41:53 <AnMaster> )
20:42:32 <AnMaster> some day I should try to take a 360° panorama
20:42:43 <AnMaster> also I wonder if that really is a degree sign, or if it is a ^0...
20:43:30 <AnMaster> hm... °⁰ well degree sign I guess
20:44:09 <AnMaster> hey, am I holding a monologue or something?
20:44:11 * AnMaster prods fizzie
20:44:38 <fizzie> I'm sort of a bit away here.
20:44:55 <fizzie> I'd photograph places at the university, but I don't want to do it when there are people there.
20:45:03 <AnMaster> true
20:45:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw fish eye looks funny
20:45:18 <AnMaster> tried that projection?
20:45:38 <AnMaster> stereographic actually seems to kind of work for this...
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21:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> a
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21:10:13 <augur> uorygl: hey
21:10:36 <uorygl> Ahoy.
21:10:53 <augur> sup
21:11:04 <uorygl> Not much.
21:11:06 <fax> uorygl is a twerp
21:11:13 <augur> true
21:11:23 <fax> he can go stick it up himself
21:11:32 <augur> hot
21:13:33 * uorygl disassembles a pen and screws a TRS size adapter onto one of the parts.
21:14:31 <uorygl> I imagine that in my younger days, I would have expected to be able to do that, plug it into an amplifier, and sing into the tip of the pen, and hear my voice coming through the amplifier.
21:14:53 <fax> uorygl I hope yu get electrocuted
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21:47:35 <augur> well uorygl? is my algorithm awesome or not? 8D
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22:14:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Has nothing really happened for 25 minutes?
22:15:36 <Slereah> butt
22:15:46 <Phantom_Hoover> What?
22:15:49 <Slereah> butt
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22:32:02 <AnMaster> * uorygl disassembles a pen and screws a TRS size adapter onto one of the parts. <-- TRS?
22:32:39 <AnMaster> <fax> uorygl I hope yu get electrocuted <-- why?
22:35:03 <fax> because he ignored me
22:35:29 <fax> he linked to some puzzles site so I tried to show him my favorite puzzles but he just completely ignored me, why would someone do that? It's so horrible
22:43:22 <AnMaster> huh
22:43:27 <AnMaster> fax, maybe he missed it?
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22:57:04 <uorygl> AnMaster: tip-ring-sleeve, consumer audio connectors.
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23:05:03 <AnMaster> uorygl, ?
23:05:04 <augur> uorygl: ouch. im doing some tests on random graphs, and the time complexity seems to be exponential :(
23:05:12 <augur> its _fast_ but its exponential
23:05:14 <AnMaster> ah
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23:07:21 <augur> :(
23:07:27 <augur> and i had thought i'd done it! D:
23:08:25 <uorygl> Proven P = NP?
23:08:34 <augur> hell yeah bitch
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23:29:50 <AnMaster> augur, I doubt P=NP is the case
23:29:56 <augur> ;)
23:29:57 <augur> still!
23:30:00 <AnMaster> there seems to be nothing that points in that direction
23:30:36 <AnMaster> augur, what I find more likely is than P=NP is that P!=NP but that is unprovable. (Of course it could be unprovable if it is unprovable or not...)
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23:33:20 <lament> it's provable.. it's just very, very hard to prove.
23:33:26 <lament> ...exponentially hard
23:33:29 <augur> oh yeah? prove it.
23:33:32 <augur> 8D
23:34:15 <augur> actually, this is interesting, the graphs that seem to be taking the longest to calculate are the ones that are very nearly complete, but those are _easy_ when just run by themselves. so i might be actually hitting computational randomness in the calculation times
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23:38:15 <augur> yeah, that seems to have been what it is; after averaging multiple compute times for each graph, the number of graphs that are extremely long to compute for has dropped
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23:53:28 <augur> bhatturas <3
23:58:38 <augur> damnit, i keep doing this
23:58:47 <augur> the algorithm ive been testing? wrong fucking algorithm.
23:58:57 <augur> i have two methods on my graph class that solve this problem
23:59:07 <augur> both with the same name, except for a version number
23:59:21 <augur> e.g. relmaxclique and relmaxclique2
23:59:26 <augur> and the first i know to be a shitty algorithm
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