←2010-03-28 2010-03-29 2010-03-30→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:09:36 <fax> http://www.tom.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~sakai/hiki/?CPL
00:10:18 -!- lifthras1ir has changed nick to lifthrasiir.
00:12:01 <fax> right object exp(a,b) with curry is ev: prod(exp,a) -> b
00:12:01 <fax> end object;
00:12:05 <fax> that's how to implement lambda
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00:24:57 <uorygl> Sgeo_: just tie a loose knot in the cord.
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01:08:45 <alise_> I need to be up at ~9am.
01:08:48 <alise_> Meh.
01:08:56 <oerjan> bye
01:11:07 <fax> hi
01:11:16 <fax> oerjan you like my link
01:11:18 <fax> :)
01:12:11 <oerjan> um i suppose
01:16:34 <fax> :(
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01:25:55 <alise_> http://pastie.org/892789.txt?key=t975zsuwf3eij1003wwq In which I prove, in 57 labourous lines, that the cardinality of (option T) (i.e. T with an extra element None) is the cardinality of T plus 1, for both finite and infinite types.
01:26:02 <alise_> Axioms used:
01:26:06 <alise_> Axiom Proof_Irrelevance : forall P : Prop, forall x y : P, x = y.
01:26:06 <alise_> Axiom One_Cardinality : forall T, forall c, T |=| c -> forall d, T |=| d <-> d = c.
01:26:16 <alise_> I'm certain I could eliminate the former - even though it is totally reasonable -
01:26:22 <alise_> and I think I could eliminate the latter with some trickery.
01:26:30 <alise_> Apart from that, it's all bijections.
01:27:21 * fax bites oerjan
01:27:36 <alise_> and yes I am aware that all of this is ridiculously verbose
01:28:02 <oerjan> ouch
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01:35:11 <alise_> Got rid of proof irrelevance.
01:36:49 <uorygl> What language are you proving this stuff in?
01:37:34 <pikhq> Aliseese.
01:39:07 <alise_> Coq.
01:39:17 <alise_> See http://pastie.org/892789.txt?key=t975zsuwf3eij1003wwq though it's much better now.
01:41:54 <Sgeo_> Is the Haskell style of separating IO from other stuff a good rule to follow in other languages?
01:42:44 <fax> Sgeo: btw
01:42:51 <fax> Sgeo: I wouldn't say that haskell seperates them at all
01:43:07 <alise_> Sgeo_: of course.
01:43:47 <fax> you can do pure functions like [IO a] -> [IO a] or whatever
01:44:05 <alise_> uorygl: Here's the current code: http://pastie.org/892810.txt?key=eesyermgmbltv9jhbhk8eq
01:44:41 <uorygl> I've heard that it's good practice to treat IO and -> as different things.
01:44:49 <uorygl> And in Haskell, they are! How neat is that?
01:45:01 <alise_> uorygl: And here is the totally gnarly lambda term Coq spits out for option_adds_one: http://pastie.org/892808.txt?key=b7m1ufymznbtw8hospsziw
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01:45:38 <alise_> All that just to prove that |a+1| = |a|+1.
01:45:50 <alise_> (Cardinality, of course; not absolute value.)
01:46:00 <zzo38> Let's see if you can figure out this one... http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Check+for+brainwave+activity
01:46:09 <alise_> zzo38: http://pastie.org/892810.txt?key=eesyermgmbltv9jhbhk8eq
01:46:33 <zzo38> alise_: Application error
01:46:42 <fax> hi zzo
01:46:49 <alise_> zzo38: Howso?
01:47:04 <alise_> Are you just not cool enough for my awesome proof? :|
01:47:15 <zzo38> I get a 500 error when accessing that URL
01:47:29 <fax> !bf ++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>++++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++<<<<<<<-]+++++++++++++++++>>>>++++.>>++++++.<<<<<++.>>>>>++++++++..>+++.<--.++++++++.>----.>-.<<--------.>>-.<<++++.<<<<.>>>>----.++.>>--.<-----.>++.<.>--.+++++.<<<<<<.>>>>+.+.>>-----.<<.--.>>.<<++.--------.<<<+.<..>>+++++.>>--.>>-------.+++.++.<.+++++.<+++++.<<<.
01:47:35 <alise_> zzo38: Did you include the ?key= part?
01:47:42 <alise_> Perhaps try refreshing.
01:47:58 <zzo38> Yes I did. But now I found out what was wrong and now I can view it
01:48:11 <zzo38> I just forgot the "q" at the end.
01:48:45 <fax> Check for brainwave activity?
01:48:48 <fax> I clearly don't have any
01:48:52 <fax> I have no idea what this means
01:49:05 <fax> you're supposed to write a short program that does something :D
01:49:06 <zzo38> I mean the computer's brainwave activity.
01:49:10 <uorygl> You have
01:49:22 <uorygl> Wow, that actually got sent.
01:49:32 <uorygl> You have a strange definition of cardinality.
01:49:35 <zzo38> The computer doesn't have any brainwave activity
01:49:44 <fax> so it just needs to print No brainwave activity detected. Aborting.?
01:49:56 <fax> print "No brainwave activity detected. Aborting." ?
01:50:06 <fax> zzo your puzzles are WAY too hard for me :D
01:50:09 <zzo38> That works, but see if there are other ways...
01:50:15 <alise_> uorygl: Howso?
01:50:25 <alise_> In dependent type theory, there are only finite cardinalities and Aleph_0.
01:50:28 <alise_> There is nothing bigger than the rationals.
01:50:45 <uorygl> I guess that sounds consistent enough.
01:50:50 <alise_> Well, you can't actually prove any properties about the cardinality of functions (but postulating a bijection (A -> B) -><- nat is consistent)
01:51:05 <fax> Error: empty file
01:51:06 <fax> :(
01:51:08 <uorygl> Well, why not.
01:51:10 <alise_> uorygl: it's because the set of algorithms is countably infinite - and we do computable reals
01:51:12 <alise_> which are just functions
01:51:47 <Sgeo_> Have it print characters for 1+1=, and if it magically inputs 2, there's brainwave activity?
01:51:56 <alise_> even (list T) is Aleph_0 -- T must be Aleph_0 or less, so it has a bijection to-fro naturals. Transform to naturals.
01:52:07 <alise_> 1 = unary natural digit; 0 = list separator.
01:52:32 <uorygl> Hmm, I just realized that my last message could also be interpreted as "Well, why not?"
01:53:09 <uorygl> I meant "Well, upon taking that into account, I see no reason not to have only one infinite cardinality".
01:53:24 <alise_> so TONAT[[1,2],[3,4]] = TONAT[TONAT[1,2], TONAT[3,4]] = TONAT[1011, 11101111] = 11111111111011111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
01:53:47 <alise_> Which is, admittedly, not the shortest representation.
01:53:51 <alise_> It would make Godel proud.
01:54:00 <zzo38> 1+1=2 is not brainwave activity, as far as I know. Try again.
01:54:32 <fax> do brainwave exist?
01:54:41 <alise_> uorygl: Fin, of course, is the type of infinite types; Fin n is the type with n elements.
01:54:48 <alise_> erm
01:54:49 <alise_> of finite types
01:55:12 <Sgeo_> Searches for a file known.. wait, the program itself is what takes in a BF program?
01:55:28 <zzo38> fax: Yes, brainwave exist and I can measure it. But the computer doesn't have any, it isn't hook to hardware to process brainwaves nor software to generate brainwaves.
01:55:43 <alise_> So, I'm going now until Friday again. Anyone want to lavish praise on my cardinalities?
01:56:08 <zzo38> Sgeo_: You can try that if you want
01:56:12 <fax> #include <stdio.h>
01:56:12 <fax> int main(void){puts("No brainwave activity detected. Aborting.");return 0;}
01:56:16 <fax> this got accepted o
01:56:45 <alise_> main(){puts("No brainwave activity detected. Aborting.");}
01:56:48 <zzo38> Yes, it definitely works, but it is long.
01:56:51 <Sgeo_> If the BF program is optimized in superficial ways, it wasn't optimized by a computer, therefore a human made it
01:56:52 <alise_> So, nobody has anything to say?
01:57:04 <alise_> Sgeo_: It's tradition for you to say goodbye, asshole!
01:57:15 <Sgeo_> Sorry, alise. Hope things improve
01:57:18 <alise_> Yay!
01:57:21 <fax> we are meant to use this brainfuck string as input to make the program print this output
01:57:21 <alise_> Goodbye, folks.
01:57:25 <fax> bye
01:57:28 <alise_> Seeya 'round n round n round n stack overflow
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01:57:55 <zzo38> fax: Try that if you want...
01:58:09 <Sgeo_> I have fooled alise_, for I am not Sgeo_, but Sgeo!
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01:58:21 * Sgeo is in a silly mood
01:59:48 <fax> zzo I am so confused :P
02:01:07 <Sgeo> Maybe pseudo-interpret the BF
02:01:39 <Sgeo> 13 chars of Bash
02:02:14 <Sgeo> Clearly, the string isn't embedded in zzo's Bash solution
02:16:59 <zzo38> What does it mean to "pseudo-interpret the BF" in your opinion?
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02:31:46 <Sgeo> I thought if there were no loops, just a BF interpreter that doesn't read loops. But there are loops
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03:01:30 <oklofok> what's wrong with wireless mice?
03:01:59 <oklofok> in my experience wireless mouse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouse with cord
03:02:38 <oklofok> good night ~>
03:03:37 <adu> how do I write programs in several languages?
03:33:52 <uorygl> If several = 0, then stop. Otherwise, write a program in one language, then write programs in (several - 1) languages.
03:34:31 <uorygl> Or do you mean a single program that is valid in several languages?
03:35:21 <pikhq> Well, 君は utilisar multaj итак.
03:39:43 <uorygl> I like this polyglot with its contrived comment markers: http://ideology.com.au/polyglot/polyglot.txt
03:40:21 <uorygl> CuG #%* The comment goes here, and, I imagine, must always be of exactly a certain length. *+Ex=
03:40:53 <uorygl> I guess there are also block comment markers around the whole thing.
03:41:11 <Sgeo> Why are the blank spaces at the beginning important?
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03:43:01 <uorygl> I THINK THAT POLYGLOT IS UTTER_XYZZXX!
03:43:24 <pikhq> Probably the postscript.
03:43:27 <coppro> I don't even get it
03:43:44 <coppro> why does the C compiler accept (*0);
03:44:07 <uorygl> Because that's a valid expression, I guess.
03:44:23 <Sgeo> 0 is the null pointer, right?
03:44:23 <coppro> not a global scope
03:44:31 <coppro> *at
03:44:43 <uorygl> It, uh, dereferences the null pointer?
03:44:49 <Sgeo> Or maybe it's O?
03:44:56 <pikhq> That's O.
03:44:58 <coppro> oh yeah, it is
03:45:03 <coppro> so it's a declaration of a pointer to int
03:45:24 <uorygl> Bah, that's no 0.
03:45:36 <Sgeo> huh?
03:45:42 <coppro> that's a star-identifier
03:45:51 <Sgeo> I still don't get (*O
03:46:00 <coppro> Sgeo: there
03:46:04 <coppro> *there's a ); after the comment
03:46:10 <coppro> in C, this is a declaration of a pointer to int named O
03:46:32 <coppro> the "that's a star-identifier" comment was my witty response to pikhq's "that's no 0"
03:46:49 * Sgeo mindboggles
03:47:04 <uorygl> pikhq didn't say that.
03:47:20 <coppro> oh wait, yeah, that was uorygl
03:47:28 <Sgeo> COBOL accepts CuG #% as a line number?
03:47:49 <coppro> I don't know and I don't want to
03:48:20 * Sgeo tortures coppro with an identification division.
03:48:50 <pikhq> http://ideology.com.au/polyglot/x86/ Ah.
03:49:14 <Sgeo> Oh, that's cool
03:49:45 <pikhq> The whitespace is needed for the x86 *machine code*.
03:50:00 <pikhq> Erm. Assembly? Doesn't look like assembly.
03:50:17 <Sgeo> How does the C get away with not having an ending.. oh, I missed it
03:50:59 <Sgeo> WTF does CuG mean to a shell script?
03:51:23 <uorygl> Presumably, it means you run CuG.
03:51:36 <uorygl> Now write a polyglot quine in /// and BF.
03:51:54 <pikhq> Sgeo: It looks like a bunch of commands that get the stderr shoved into _\$\$.
03:51:59 <pikhq> http://ideology.com.au/polyglot/shell/
03:52:02 <pikhq> Yeah, really.
03:52:14 * Sgeo sees it
03:52:15 <uorygl> I guess that's pretty easy. Write a quine in BF; it will also be a quine in ///.
03:52:42 * Sgeo wonders what languages an empty source file ISN'T a quine in
03:52:43 <uorygl> Now write a non-trivial polyglot quine in /// and BF.
03:52:59 <Sgeo> COBOL probably, and Homespring
03:53:27 <uorygl> There are lots of languages where a program is not simply a series of statements.
03:53:51 * Sgeo reads the Homespring standard
03:54:22 * Sgeo attempts to get the standard to load
03:57:37 <uorygl> I must admit, I'm rather proud of ///. It's really simple, it's Turing-complete in a totally non-obvious way, and all data is essentially stored within the program's source code.
03:58:19 <Sgeo> Searching on the esolang wiki for three slashes is a pain
03:58:34 <uorygl> The page is called Slashes.
04:00:29 <Sgeo> "This allows you to avoid worrying about program style and focus on what programming is really about, the reproductive behavior of salmon."
04:00:39 <Sgeo> (not Slashes)
04:02:34 <uorygl> A random sentence from the Homespring spec: "However, it does not proscribe the same behaviour as the official interpreter in every case."
04:03:04 <uorygl> This makes me want to write a language called Proscription, where every program's behavior is completely undefined, except that one particular behavior is proscribed.
04:03:27 <uorygl> "This program does anything but output Hello, world!"
04:03:27 <Sgeo> Hm, are there nicer ways to write 99.. no, of course there aren't
04:03:36 <uorygl> In which language?
04:03:46 <Sgeo> ///
04:04:50 <uorygl> Write a version that takes advantage of all redundancy.
04:04:58 <uorygl> Let me think...
04:05:37 <uorygl> "X bottles of beer on the wall / X bottles of beer / Take one down, pass it around / X bottles of beer on the wall /// X bottles of beer on the wall ..."
04:06:30 <uorygl> So the fundamental strings there are "bottles of beer", "on the wall", and "Take one down, pass it around"; you can probably find some more redundancy in the line breaks.
04:06:43 <uorygl> Of course, "bottles of beer" sometimes becomes "bottle of beer".
04:07:07 * Sgeo meant in particular with the digits
04:07:11 <uorygl> Then find a way to programmatically decrement a natural number.
04:07:39 <uorygl> Pretend you're writing in Thue. Then find the best way to translate your Thue to ///.
04:07:49 <uorygl> Which is really difficult, of course.
04:16:43 <uorygl> I wonder how one might turn /// into a language capable of arbitrary I/O behavior.
04:17:17 <Sgeo> </silly>
04:18:51 <uorygl> Let's say that | is an input token and running it causes a character of input to be stuck at the end of the program, followed by |
04:19:45 <uorygl> s/character/byte/; we don't want to require ultra-longnesses in order to be able to recognize every possible character.
04:20:19 <coppro> let's not
04:20:29 <Sgeo> Why the extra |?
04:21:24 <uorygl> If we didn't somehow mark the input, then it might be the case that there are always two pieces of input that do the same thing.
04:21:38 * Sgeo wonders how you'd write a BF interpreter (minus , and .) in vanilla ///
04:22:25 <uorygl> After all, if you're replacing one string wholesale with another, the two strings behave the same way.
04:28:28 * Sgeo is confused
04:46:28 <uorygl> If your program contains /foo/bar/, how is it supposed to distinguish between foo and bar?
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06:05:59 * coppro wants a good programming game to play
06:07:57 <coppro> Sgeo: you usually have these sorts of links
06:08:09 <Sgeo> Oh, hi
06:08:21 <Sgeo> Besides RoboZZle?
06:08:23 <coppro> yeah
06:08:30 <coppro> played that too much
06:08:48 <Sgeo> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProgrammingGame is where I found RoboZZle from
06:08:53 <coppro> I know
06:09:04 <Sgeo> Other than that, I'm not sure
06:09:22 <Sgeo> Scripting in Second Life entertains me sometimes
06:12:18 <Sgeo> http://www.introversion.co.uk/darwinia/ I'm not sure if it's a programming game, I haven't tried it myself
06:12:29 <Sgeo> That company does make a Hollywood-style hacking game though, so :/
06:17:03 * Sgeo pokes coppro
06:17:34 <coppro> looks unexciting
06:18:55 <Sgeo> I remember seeing one about controlling.. a rover in 3d, I think? Can't seem to find it
06:21:37 <coppro> kiki the nano-bot?
06:21:45 <coppro> not really a programming game
06:22:11 <coppro> I guess I could just play DROD
06:22:43 <uorygl> There's that defunct LEGO game.
06:22:49 <uorygl> Unfortunately, that defunct LEGO game is defunct.
06:24:53 <coppro> heh
06:25:58 <Sgeo> http://nerogame.org/
06:26:05 <Sgeo> Don't know how much programming's actually involved
06:26:30 <Sgeo> More training neural nets I think
06:26:58 <Sgeo> http://www.ceebot.com/colobot/index-e.php This is what I was thinking of
06:30:03 <coppro> thanks
06:30:59 <Sgeo> yw
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08:40:02 <Deewiant> Sgeo: Darwinia isn't a programming game
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10:17:00 <oerjan> <uorygl> I wonder how one might turn /// into a language capable of arbitrary I/O behavior.
10:17:32 <oerjan> um, Itflabijtslwi is linked right there on the Slashes page...
10:18:33 <oerjan> (sp)
10:22:21 <oerjan> <uorygl> Let's say that | is an input token and running it causes a character of input to be stuck at the end of the program, followed by |
10:23:13 <oerjan> i think this will be harder to use, you would essentially _have_ to match all character possibilities to do anything with it
10:24:10 <oerjan> because you cannot substitute on just | without ruining all future iterations
10:25:08 <oerjan> btw yes, /// is great :)
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17:52:54 <dev_squid> Hey guys.
17:53:18 <dev_squid> Hey, I have a really neat idea for an esolang. Just wanted to see what you guys thought of it.
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17:56:02 <dev_squid> What about an asm-esque language that runs on a hypothetical stack machine which uses a Harvard architecture; the unique thing about it is that both code -and- data space is a stack, and code can be treated just like stack data. I was thinking about having a conditional swap which would allow you to create pretty neat conditional loops.
17:56:34 <dev_squid> I think it's leetsauce...but that's just me. :)
17:57:07 <charlls> something neat would be adding unit testing into the language
17:57:49 <charlls> for example, a class can extends some class, implement some interface, or *support* some functionality which is in itself a testing declaration
17:58:32 <charlls> something like class Service implements iService supports Scalable, ThreadSafe
17:58:56 <charlls> where Scalable is an abstract test case declaration
17:59:20 <charlls> but defines explicit tests to be made that certify that certain class supports it
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18:06:41 <dev_squid> o_O ?
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