←2010-04-02 2010-04-03 2010-04-04→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:05:04 <oerjan> apparently mkPolar 1 is also known as cis
00:05:21 <fax> yes
00:05:27 <fax> "cos + i sin"
00:06:01 <oerjan> yeah i know, i meant it was a defined haskell function
00:07:07 <oerjan> hm
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00:08:04 <oerjan> z^5 = 1 and not z = 1 means z^4 + z^3 + z^2 + z + 1 = 0 fwiw
00:08:25 <oerjan> i suppose that's one of the results, but it also is simply polynomial division
00:08:49 <fax> well
00:08:52 <fax> z^4 + z^3 + z^2 + z = -1
00:09:29 <fax> but we should be able to extract two sequences, x1 = z^4 + z^2, x2 = z^3 + z (say) such that x1+x2=-1 & x1*x2 = <some rational>
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00:10:13 <oerjan> ah
00:10:25 <fax> it doesn't seem to be true though :(
00:10:49 <oerjan> well z and z^4 are also conjugate, so z+z^2 and z^4+z^3 are conjugate
00:11:06 <oerjan> and multiplying conjugates at least gives a positive real
00:11:20 <fax> 2.6180339887498945
00:11:36 <fax> (that is 1+phi, which is not rational)
00:11:58 <fax> so I'm a bit lost now as for what I should do
00:12:03 <oerjan> another option would be z+z^3 and z^4+z^2
00:12:16 <fax> well that gives 0.38196601125010515
00:12:30 <fax> which is 1/2.6180339887498945
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00:13:49 <oerjan> well i don't know this stuff, anyway
00:16:04 <Quadrescence> cyclotomic polys are easy
00:17:51 <fax> !hs let w = exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/17)) :: Complex Double in (sum \$ map (w^) [3,10,5,11,14,7,12,6])*(sum \$ map (w^) [9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1])
00:17:55 <fax> !haskell let w = exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/17)) :: Complex Double in (sum \$ map (w^) [3,10,5,11,14,7,12,6])*(sum \$ map (w^) [9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1])
00:17:59 <fax> `haskell let w = exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/17)) :: Complex Double in (sum \$ map (w^) [3,10,5,11,14,7,12,6])*(sum \$ map (w^) [9,13,15,16,8,4,2,1])
00:18:02 <oerjan> egobot is not here
00:18:42 <oerjan> (-4.0) :+ (-5.06434096082401e-016) :: Complex Double
00:20:10 <oerjan> you may try privmsg'ing lambdabot. prepend with "> "
00:20:23 <fax> *Galois Data.Complex> multiplicativeGroupGenerator 52
00:20:23 <fax> *Galois Data.Complex> map(\i->2^i`mod`5)[1..4][2,4,3,1]
00:20:23 <fax> *Galois Data.Complex> let w = exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/5)) :: Complex Double in (sum \$ map (w^) [2,3])*(sum \$ map (w^) [4,1])
00:20:26 <fax> (-0.9999999999999999) :+ 6.861555643110582e-17
00:20:38 <oerjan> i guess that won't show up here
00:20:53 <fax> multiplicativeGroupGenerator 5 = 2
00:21:13 <fax> orbit of 2 in multiplicative Z/5Z = [2,4,3,1]
00:21:22 <oerjan> hm
00:21:33 <fax> so the periods (w^2+w^3)(w^4+w) = -1
00:21:34 <oerjan> 3 is also a generator, i should think
00:21:37 <fax> but I thought I did this......
00:21:45 <fax> I just pick the first generator
00:22:33 <oerjan> as i said, exp (2*pi*sqrt(-1)*(1/5)) = cis (2*pi/5)
00:22:56 <fax> I don\t understand what I had wrong before
00:23:17 <Sgeo> This mouse still feels too weird
00:23:33 <oerjan> well we didn't try that splitting
00:23:34 <Sgeo> Also, changing the speed of the thing also changes the speed of the trackpad
00:23:39 <fax> (w+w^4)*(w^3+w^4) <------- augh!!!
00:23:41 <fax> im so stupid
00:25:31 * Sgeo switches back to his wired mouse
00:26:28 <oerjan> fax: i was trying to suggest things that were conjugates of each other, if the product was supposed to be negative no wonder that didn't work :D
00:26:51 <fax> oerjan, but you are right -- they are conjugates
00:27:12 <oerjan> um no
00:27:23 <oerjan> if they were conjugates their product would be positive
00:27:42 <oerjan> (w^2+w^3) and (w^4+w), that is
00:27:49 <fax> oh right I see
00:28:23 <fax> so there's a 'fast' way to calculate the value of (w^2+w^3)*(w^4+w)
00:28:31 <fax> but it's really confusind and complicaetd ;D
00:29:03 <oerjan> exactly the right kind of thing for a computer program, you'd think
00:29:46 <fax> I am trying to program this algorithm but it is really a lot harder than anything I have worked on before
00:29:53 <fax> well I guess that is the wrong way to put it
00:29:59 <Sgeo> What if you tried it imperatively?
00:30:01 <Sgeo> >.>
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00:40:17 <fax> this... appears to only work for fermat primes
00:40:27 <fax> but that is not good because there are other primes
00:42:28 <oerjan> oh? what goes wrong for 7, say?
00:42:48 <fax> well give me 10 mins I will try p = 7 on paper
00:43:17 <oerjan> {1,2,3,4,5,6} lessee
00:43:37 <oerjan> {2,4,1} nope
00:44:00 <fax> [3,2,6,4,5,1]
00:44:05 <fax> that's the orbit of 3
00:44:07 <oerjan> {3,2,6,
00:44:13 <oerjan> i was _getting_ there :D
00:44:15 <fax> :P
00:44:16 <fax> sorry
00:45:10 <oerjan> so do you take (w^3+z^2+w^6)*(w^4+w^5+w^1) ?
00:45:19 <oerjan> or would, if it worked
00:46:11 <oerjan> how did i get that z there
00:46:23 <fax> http://www.pasteit4me.com/312001
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00:47:52 <oerjan> huh, so [3,6,5] and [2,4,1], or [3,4] and [6,1]
00:48:36 <fax> [3,4], [2,5] and [6,1]
00:48:45 <fax> so the thing splits into 2*3 or 3*x
00:48:47 <fax> so the thing splits into 2*3 or 3*2 ***
00:48:52 <oerjan> oh any two?
00:49:12 <oerjan> er wait
00:49:17 <oerjan> you multiplied all three
00:49:27 <fax> yeah
00:49:37 <fax> in general if we have an orbit that covers the whole group [a,b,c,d...]
00:50:07 <fax> it seems like you can share it out (one for me, one for you, one for him, one for me, ...) into sets which (obviously sum to -1) and multiply to make a rational number
00:50:21 <fax> but why they multiply to make a rational..... I have no idea
00:50:28 <oerjan> oh you are taking all the cosets of a subgroup?
00:50:38 <fax> hmm
00:50:43 <fax> yes I guess they are cosets aren't they
00:50:54 <fax> the group is Z/pZ by the way (multiplicative)
00:51:10 <fax> (I don'tknow if I neglected to say that earlier)
00:51:31 <oerjan> i understood that much
00:51:42 <oerjan> although i wouldn't call that Z/pZ...
00:52:04 <oerjan> wikipedia used a superscript X
00:53:03 <oerjan> hm since the multiplicative group is cyclic, i guess all subgroups are cyclic too so given by a single element
00:53:26 <fax> oerjan, ooh that explains why you can keep doing it!
00:54:34 <fax> it's a bit usesless to know that y1+y2+y3 = -1 & y1*y2*y3 = 1
00:54:36 <fax> you can't solve this equation
00:54:47 <oerjan> in fact if this is the case you don't need to find a primitive root at all, unless you want to classify everything
00:54:56 <fax> hmmm
00:55:00 <fax> p-1 is always even
00:55:11 <fax> (p > 2)
00:57:08 <augur> OMG BLUE BUBBLEGUM JONES
00:57:21 <augur> also, fax! :D
00:57:24 * augur glomps fax
00:57:28 <fax> hey augur :)))
00:57:40 <augur> i had an idea for a fun little challenge
00:57:46 <fax> the universe thing?
00:57:51 <augur> yeah did i mention it to you?
00:58:00 <augur> ive been modelling simple universes
00:58:08 <fax> what is a universe ?
00:59:11 <augur> ok so in this context, a universe is some topology, some number of particles that inhabit that topology (or some properties over that topology, take your pick), and some number of rules that govern the physics of those particles in that topology
00:59:59 <fax> augur WOLFRAM??
01:00:10 <augur> no.
01:00:19 <fax> this sounds like cellular automata
01:00:24 <augur> im sure you could model (some) of these universes as CAs
01:00:28 <fax> except on arbitrary topology
01:00:31 <augur> but the physics dont have to be defined CAly
01:00:36 <fax> oh there are non-CA rule sets?
01:00:38 <fax> like how
01:00:44 <augur> well you could do so if you wanted.
01:01:21 <augur> just as an example, imagine you had an infinite discrete universe with a particle occupying one position in the universe
01:01:46 <augur> you could say that it has a constant velocity in some direction and so forth
01:01:53 <augur> im sure you could also define a CA for this tho
01:06:12 <augur> so do you know the setup of the game?
01:07:39 <fax> I guess so
01:07:42 <fax> it sounds very difficult
01:08:09 <augur> it is rather, i think
01:08:15 <augur> just to reiterate, the game goes like this
01:08:44 <augur> i secretly design a (simple) universe. then i provide to you the causal graph of the universe
01:08:52 <fax> oerjan, btw -- x1 = z^3+z^6+z^5 ; x2 = z^2+z^4+z^1 gives x1 = -1/2-sqrt(-7/4) ; x2 = -1/2+sqrt(-7/4)
01:08:53 <augur> and you have to determine the design i used.
01:09:11 <fax> augur, the causal graph is a picture ?
01:09:25 <fax> augur I want to try this but I am not likely to win
01:10:08 <augur> the causal graph is basically just a directed graph, where each node is one of the possible configurations of the universe, and each directed arc connects a configuration to a "successor" confiuguration
01:10:17 <fax> so the problem is, I know that z^3+z^6+z^5 = -1/2-sqrt(-7/4) -- but that doesn't help me find any expression for z^3 or whatever
01:10:22 <augur> ie the configuration the universe would be in after running the physics one time unit forward
01:11:27 <augur> you could imagine a universe with a single point in it, and that point has a single property Energy that is one of the integers, and the "physics" is such that Energy increases by one every time step
01:11:51 <oerjan> well z^3 is a 7th root of unity, i don't know whether they can be expressed with real roots
01:12:13 <augur> so the causal graph of this universe is basically 0 -> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> ... where each state corresponds to one of the configurations {(point, energy)} of the universe
01:12:24 <augur> does this make sense, fax?
01:12:46 <fax> vaugely :)
01:13:00 <augur> or imagine you have a universe that is a string of text
01:13:04 <augur> of length 3
01:13:23 <augur> with say 1 of 26 "particles" (letters) in each position
01:13:34 <augur> "aaa", "aab", ...
01:13:35 <fax> oerjan, well there is a theorem that every root of unity can be expressed in radicals (from Gauss)
01:13:39 <augur> these are the configurations of this universe
01:13:53 <oerjan> fax: oh
01:13:55 <fax> oerjan, but I am completely failing to see how it works for non-fermat primes
01:14:02 <augur> then theres some physics that says each "configuration" is followed by, lets say, the "next" string
01:14:13 <augur> or god only knows what the universe is, right
01:14:22 <fax> augur yeah I get that it just seems if you can choose any rule you want that it's impossible to figure it out
01:14:33 <augur> well let me give you a very simple one :)
01:14:37 <fax> ok
01:14:42 <augur> here is a simple causal graph: 1 -> 1
01:16:05 <augur> this is the simplest universe i can think of
01:16:30 <fax> that sucks
01:16:31 <fax> :/
01:16:39 <fax> idiot universe
01:16:41 <augur> cmon, think of what kinds of universes this could be :)
01:16:49 <augur> what is the universe and the physics
01:16:59 <augur> actually its a whole class of universes, but
01:17:01 <fax> the universe is {1} and the physics is I
01:17:35 <augur> basically, yeah. the universe is a 1x1 universe with no particles (or 1 particle) and no physical laws that change anything.
01:17:51 <augur> alternatively it could be seen as any universe with no particles an no physical laws that change anything
01:18:05 <augur> heres the next simplest one i can think of
01:18:08 <augur> 1 -> 1, 2 -> 2
01:18:24 <fax> the universe is {1,2} and the physics is I
01:18:28 <fax> ?
01:18:37 <augur> well, what do you mean bye {1,2}?
01:18:40 <fax> idk
01:18:47 <augur> the 1 and 2 that i used are just names for configurations
01:18:47 <Gregor> What do you mean, BYE! {1,2}
01:18:51 <fax> it's just the nodes of a graph
01:18:55 <fax> there are no edges yet
01:18:56 <Gregor> (Sorry, couldn't help myself)
01:19:10 <augur> but the nodes in the graphs are not the universe
01:19:25 <augur> the universe is a topology plus a physics that this graph describes
01:20:14 <augur> the universe envisioned is as follows:
01:20:30 <augur> a 1x2 universe with one particle (which can be in either location) and no physics
01:20:54 <augur> or, a 1x1 universe with one particle (which can be pointing in either one of two directions) and no physics
01:21:12 <oerjan> no, it's a particle which can be either red or blue!
01:21:17 <augur> the configurations for the former are: [o| ] and [ |o]
01:21:23 <augur> oerjan, :)
01:21:33 <augur> and for the latter: [<] and [>] lets say.
01:22:43 <augur> heres another universe thats similar: 1 -> 1, 2 -> 2, 3 -> 3, 4 -> 4
01:24:34 <augur> im sure you can imagine what this is
01:24:58 <oerjan> yes, it's a 1x2 universe with two particles *ducks*
01:25:04 <augur> nope :)
01:25:14 <augur> unless you hve some physics in there
01:25:24 <oerjan> well no physics
01:25:29 <oerjan> nothing changes
01:25:30 <augur> then definitely not
01:25:38 <augur> because that universe would be [o|o]
01:25:44 <augur> and would have only one state
01:25:55 <augur> making its causal graph the same as the first universe: 1 -> 1
01:25:56 <oerjan> you didn't say particles couldn't be in the same position
01:26:07 <augur> ahhaaa good thinking oerjan :)
01:26:12 <augur> then yes, you're right
01:26:15 <augur> it could be that universe
01:26:42 <oerjan> anyway i predict the number of possibilities will become hopelessly large, fast
01:26:49 <augur> or it could be a 1x1 universe with a particle that faces one of four directions, or two particles that face one of two directions, or, ...
01:26:58 <augur> well, the number of possibilities might
01:27:08 <augur> but im not looking for _my_ solution, just _a_ solution
01:27:28 <augur> so heres another universe thats kind of interesting
01:27:33 <oerjan> "faces directions" sounds similar to momentum.
01:27:47 <augur> :)
01:28:09 <augur> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 1; 7 -> 1; 8 -> 4
01:28:15 * Sgeo wants to use Haskell for everything
01:29:07 <augur> ill even be generous and tell you the physical makeup of the universe
01:29:13 <augur> 1x2, one particle.
01:30:07 <oerjan> well we have 2^3 states, so one bit could correspond to position of particle
01:30:30 <augur> ok :)
01:30:42 <augur> thats a truism, ofcourse
01:30:52 <augur> because, modulo anything else, the particle can be in exactly two positions
01:31:03 <augur> so the universe has at least 2*n configurations
01:31:06 <oerjan> well it means the particle can have 4 inner states in each position
01:31:13 <augur> ok
01:31:27 <augur> you're veeeery close
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01:31:41 <augur> now just figure out what the physics is :)
01:31:46 <oerjan> it could point in each of four directions
01:31:54 <augur> true.
01:32:44 <oerjan> hm...
01:33:01 <oerjan> i make it a rule that the particle is _always_ changing position, each step
01:33:06 <augur> ok
01:33:50 <oerjan> so 1,3,5 and 8 correspond to the same position, 2,4,6,7 to the other
01:34:02 <augur> ok
01:34:30 <oerjan> now we can say that 7 and 8 are both pointing down
01:34:35 <augur> ok
01:36:20 <augur> btw, when you interpreted 1x2, did you interpret that to be 1 high or 1 across?
01:36:38 <oerjan> the particle always rotates its pointing direction each step, but skipping the down direction
01:37:02 <oerjan> i believe this gives the required graph
01:37:15 <oerjan> 1 high
01:37:19 <augur> ok
01:37:25 <augur> thats what i intended :p
01:37:42 <oerjan> er what's what you intended
01:37:59 <augur> 1 high
01:38:37 <oerjan> 1 and 4 point left, 2 and 5 up, and 3 and 6 right
01:38:45 <oerjan> and rotation is clockwise
01:39:04 <augur> ok
01:40:27 <augur> thatll do it :)
01:41:26 <augur> now let me do one thing to my universe: expand the size to 2x2 now. the causal graph is as follows:
01:41:41 <oerjan> this analysis was made somewhat easier by the fact it contained two aspects that did not interfere with each other
01:42:00 <augur> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7 -> 8 -> 1; 9 -> 10 -> 1; 11 -> 12 -> 3; 13 -> 14 -> 5; 15 -> 16 -> 7
01:42:17 <augur> identical physics, one particle, just in 2x2 not 1x2
01:42:34 <oerjan> what do you mean by identical physics?
01:42:39 <augur> that is, not the physics oyu just devised, but the physics that i had in mind.
01:42:44 <oerjan> ah
01:42:49 <augur> as before.
01:42:57 <augur> so this universe and the previous one are different _only in size_
01:43:02 <oerjan> now we have 4 positions rather than 2
01:43:07 <augur> we do.
01:43:32 <oerjan> and there are still 4 inner states possible
01:43:39 <augur> indeed.
01:43:49 <oerjan> assuming those can be selected independently
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01:44:21 <augur> well they can, but the physics constraints which configurations are possible as next configurations.
01:44:51 <augur> for all of this you can assume that all properties of particles are independent of their position
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01:51:48 <oerjan> this time there are 8 non-repeating states, while there were only 2 the last time
01:52:17 <augur> you mean states which, once left, are never again reached?
01:52:18 <augur> yes.
01:52:46 <augur> ill give you an even better hint
01:52:56 <augur> if you think of the particle as a robot instead, the physics makes more sense.
01:53:44 <oerjan> which means doubling the positions did not just add an extra irrelevent bit, it has to interfere with stuff
01:53:53 <augur> nope. :)
01:53:55 <oerjan> *irrelevant
01:54:12 <oerjan> otherwise, there would be only 4 non-repeating states
01:54:14 <augur> there is no constraint on the configurations that the particle can appear in
01:54:40 <augur> the particle can be found in each of the four positions in each of the four states.
01:54:46 <oerjan> i mean the new bit and the old ones have to have physical interaction
01:55:24 <augur> let me know if you want more hints
01:55:40 <oerjan> <augur> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 7 -> 8 -> 1; 9 -> 10 -> 1; 11 -> 12 -> 3; 13 -> 14 -> 5; 15 -> 16 -> 7
01:55:52 <augur> yep :)
01:57:01 <oerjan> there is still room for one bit aspect that does nothing but flip each turn (in fact this is clearer here since you numbered things to alternate odd/even turns)
01:57:25 <augur> remember, im not using your physics but mine. so you cant assume its doing what yours did :)
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01:57:49 <augur> want another hint?
01:57:52 <oerjan> no, but i _am_ assuming i have to come up with something that fits the previous one as well
01:58:11 <oerjan> otherwise this would be easy
01:58:14 <augur> :)
01:58:31 <augur> hint: its not always changing position, nor internal state, during each time step.
01:58:46 <augur> but it *is* at least changing one of them
01:58:59 <oerjan> um the last point is obviouas
01:59:02 <oerjan> *-a
01:59:13 <augur> just making sure that it was :P
02:00:52 <oerjan> hm...
02:02:01 <oerjan> i think i've got it, just checking
02:02:37 <oerjan> <augur> 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> 6 -> 1; 7 -> 1; 8 -> 4
02:03:00 <oerjan> just checking it gives the same
02:04:48 <oerjan> ok
02:05:57 <oerjan> each step, _if_ the particle is pointing toward another reachable position, it moves there. otherwise it rotates clockwise. this fits both universes.
02:06:07 <augur> bingo. :)
02:07:10 <oerjan> yay
02:07:58 <augur> now figure out the structure of this universe, given those physics, and 1 particle:
02:08:29 <oerjan> hm this is turning out more interesting than i expected :P
02:08:48 <augur> 1 -> 2 -> 1; 3 -> 4 -> 3; 5 -> 6 -> 5; 7 -> 8 -> 7; 9 -> 10 -> 1; 11 -> 12 -> 2; 13 -> 14 -> 3; 15 -> 16 -> 4
02:09:07 <augur> so tell me the geometry of the universe.
02:09:08 <oerjan> the same physics? ok.
02:09:46 <augur> you can already figure it must be a universe with 4 positions. but what are their arrangement, and is there more to the geometry than just that.
02:10:25 <oerjan> there is at least some toroidal stuff going on
02:10:44 <oerjan> that's the only way you could flip between two states with those physics
02:11:33 <oerjan> wait four positions...
02:11:44 <oerjan> oh wait yes
02:20:42 <fax> so I'm a bit disappointed
02:20:57 <fax> I thought this program would be able to derive solution for the cubic equation and stuff like that
02:21:03 <fax> but it seems like you have to hard code all that in :[
02:21:12 <fax> (in the roots of unity subroutine)
02:21:24 <fax> (unless I am [hopefully] missing something)
02:25:41 <augur> no ideas yet, oerjan? :)
02:25:53 <oerjan> augur: the universe is 2x2, with the left edge and right edge wrapping to each other. one (but not the only) assignment of states to positions is:
02:25:56 <oerjan> 1/6/10/15 2/5/12/13
02:25:58 <oerjan> 4/7/9/16 3/8/11/14
02:26:07 <augur> :)
02:26:09 <augur> bingo.
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02:28:13 <augur> you might want to look at larger universes, and see if there are any parallels between them when you wrap one dimension
02:28:36 <augur> or see if there are parallels between when you wrap one dimension and when you wrap a second
02:29:10 <augur> oerjan, if you enjoy this, i can try to put up a site with a bunch of these
02:29:44 <oerjan> for the first, there would be 2*n final cycles where n is the number of rows
02:29:58 <oerjan> one for each going left, the other right
02:30:13 <oerjan> and each of length m
02:30:43 <augur> right
02:31:04 <augur> and each of those cycles would have m incoming paths of length n
02:31:14 <augur> well, half of them would
02:31:30 <oerjan> there are 2*m*n cycles
02:32:03 <oerjan> um no
02:32:09 <augur> there are actually 2*n cycles
02:32:16 <augur> you were right the first time
02:32:33 <oerjan> um s/cycles/states in cycles/
02:32:56 <oerjan> actually, only the top and bottom rows would have incoming paths
02:33:05 <augur> right yes, sorry :)
02:33:19 <oerjan> m*n each
02:33:50 <augur> now are there any salient relationships between the unwrapped universe and the wrapped universe?
02:34:12 <oerjan> n to each of the m states in the cycle
02:35:10 <oerjan> well the downwards and upward paths still exist in both
02:35:45 <oerjan> the unwrapped universe has only one cycle, along the border
02:36:30 <augur> true
02:36:37 <oerjan> with 2*(m+n) states in it
02:36:42 <augur> look at the state graphs
02:36:51 <augur> keeping the state labels the same in both
02:37:49 <oerjan> no idea
02:38:40 <augur> try it and see ;)
02:38:55 <oerjan> well, everything _not_ approaching a border is of course the same
02:39:11 <oerjan> edges, that is
02:39:17 <augur> you mean everything that _is_ approaching a border
02:39:23 <augur> well, half the borders
02:39:26 <augur> because half the borders remain
02:40:05 <oerjan> by approaching i mean being next to, about to collide with it or pass through
02:40:32 <oerjan> and yeah only the changed borders
02:40:48 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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02:40:58 <oerjan> hm
02:41:06 <samosa> Hello
02:41:19 <samosa> Im new.
02:41:21 * augur eats samosa
02:41:26 <samosa> What is this channel for?
02:41:30 <samosa> :o
02:41:43 <oerjan> augur: conclusion, only 2*n edges are actually removed and 2*n added
02:41:49 <augur> :)
02:41:51 <oerjan> esoteric programming languages
02:42:02 <samosa> ooh
02:42:20 <samosa> ??
02:42:23 <samosa> -__-
02:42:36 <samosa> lulz, i mean what does esoteric mean?
02:43:17 <oerjan> in this case it means weird and often useless
02:43:22 <pikhq> Esoteric, (adj.): unusual and not well-known.
02:43:47 <samosa> i see
02:44:40 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
02:44:40 <fungot> Hello World!
02:45:48 <mibygl> Can fungot do ///?
02:45:48 <fungot> mibygl: you don't know what is correct?) not declared in this scope points to *here*" ( or newline).
02:46:07 <oerjan> not that i know of
02:46:34 <oerjan> unfortunately a couple of our bots are missing, including the one with most esolangs in it
02:46:57 <oerjan> on the other hand, fungot is _written_ in one (and implements two others)
02:46:58 <fungot> oerjan: please note how carefully i used capitalization, rather than against mine except for locative-object ( which makes no sense
02:47:37 <mibygl> Can I ask fungot what languages e implements?
02:47:38 <fungot> mibygl: and the best, mmh.
02:47:43 <oerjan> mibygl: um, someone claimed you were == uorygl, is this correct?
02:47:48 <oerjan> ^help
02:47:48 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
02:47:52 <mibygl> Correct.
02:48:08 <mibygl> If I were not uorygl, I would be impersonating uorygl, which is not a nice thing to do.
02:48:24 <mibygl> So fungot only implements two languages? Bah.
02:48:24 <fungot> mibygl: eh what?
02:48:27 <augur> so oerjan, did you want me to put up one of those sites?
02:48:48 <oerjan> you mean having the same last 3 letters is impersonating?
02:48:58 <mibygl> If those letters are "ygl", yes.
02:49:27 <mibygl> On another network, instead of uorygl/mibygl, I'm Warrigal/Mibbigal. That's also an impersonation sort of thing.
02:49:54 <oerjan> augur: i don't think i'll be spending a lot of time on it, honestly. but who knows.
02:50:04 <augur> aww ok.
02:50:26 <augur> what if i offered a cash prize for a theory of how to infer properties of the universe from the properties of the causal graph?
02:50:27 <augur> :p
02:50:48 <oerjan> mibygl: you have to note that fungot implements those languages _in_ befunge
02:50:49 <fungot> oerjan:, so i'd like to keep the secret weapon secret!" if you eval what magic outputs in javascript, but there would be
02:51:09 <mibygl> Grr, I want a ///bot.
02:51:23 <oerjan> (it does not expose befunge itself to others than fizzie, presumably for security reasons)
02:53:22 <oerjan> hm fungot does have definable commands though
02:53:22 <fungot> oerjan: which wasn't that fnord at all
02:53:30 <oerjan> ^show
02:53:30 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble
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02:53:49 <oerjan> mibygl: just write a /// interpreter in brainfuck and you'll be all set ;D
02:54:52 <oerjan> Gregor: your bots are missed
02:55:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:55:44 <Gregor> I wish I could figure out what keeps happening to 'em.
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02:56:38 <oerjan> mibygl: did you see me mention itflabijtslwi in response to your comment about /// and input?
02:57:25 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,1,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//********/.//.0
02:57:31 <EgoBot> 0110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100101101001100101100110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110100101100110100110010110011010010110100110010110
02:59:57 <mibygl> I don't know.
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03:01:54 <mibygl> !slashes /!/@@@@//@/####//#/\$\$\$\$//\$/ nom/om!
03:01:55 <EgoBot> om nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom nom
03:02:09 <oerjan> *itflabtijtslwi
03:02:28 <mibygl> Now I want to do /// busy beaver stuff.
03:02:46 <mibygl> Try to write the program of length N with the longest finite output.
03:02:52 <oerjan> heh
03:03:34 <mibygl> Call that length ?(N).
03:03:42 * mibygl ponders when ?(N) is first larger than N.
03:04:37 <mibygl> Let's see, /x/yyy/xxx is 10 long and outputs 9, /x/yyyy/xxx is 11 long and outputs 12.
03:05:04 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
03:05:47 <mibygl> By using that trick a bunch of times, as I did in that om nom nom thing, you can achieve nearly exponential growth.
03:05:58 <oerjan> seems hard to do something fancier in that short span
03:06:16 <mibygl> Mmkay, what's the best you can do in 80 characters?
03:06:38 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:07:55 <mibygl> Here's a simple attempt: /0/1111//1/2222//2/3333//3/4444//4/5555//5/6666//6/77777//7/88888//8/99999/00000
03:08:31 <mibygl> I think it outputs 2,560,000 characters.
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03:08:49 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@@@@@@@@**
03:08:49 <EgoBot> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
03:09:51 <mibygl> It would be nice if we had a Slashes unescaper.
03:11:14 <mibygl> So the result of that substitution is /*\*/+\+//+\+/*\*\*\*/?
03:11:36 <oerjan> something like that
03:14:09 <oerjan> anyway as you can see it doubles the number of **'s
03:14:27 <mibygl> So, /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\// has 38 characters, right?
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03:14:43 <oerjan> if you say so :D
03:15:16 <mibygl> If you just plopped two in, you'd have four characters to spare...
03:15:35 <oerjan> what?
03:15:43 <mibygl> If you use that twice.
03:15:50 <oerjan> oh right
03:16:06 <oerjan> which should give you something 2^2^n
03:16:29 <mibygl> Using two probably doesn't help at all.
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03:19:11 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\\-\//**++
03:19:56 <oerjan> oh wait
03:20:12 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\\-\//**--
03:20:12 <EgoBot> --------------------------------
03:20:25 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\\-\//**--
03:20:26 <EgoBot> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
03:20:48 <oerjan> oh we're already beyond 80
03:22:06 <oerjan> hm...
03:22:47 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**--
03:22:47 <EgoBot> ---------
03:22:59 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**--
03:22:59 <EgoBot> -------------------
03:23:25 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**--
03:23:25 <EgoBot> ---------------------------------------------------------------
03:23:27 <mibygl> Um, I'd think that the second replacement would replace * with yet anther replacer.
03:23:54 <oerjan> what?
03:24:00 <mibygl> Replace @ with * and * with something else in it.
03:24:26 <mibygl> The first one will generate a bunch of *s; the second one will turn each * into a doubler.
03:24:44 <mibygl> Oh, I see that you're doing something like that already.
03:25:02 <mibygl> Uh, put some spaces in there so I see what's going on.
03:25:27 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\// @@@@ /*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\// ** --
03:25:28 <EgoBot> ---------------------------------------------------------------
03:25:49 <mibygl> Brilliant.
03:26:10 <oerjan> i reduced to 3 to keep it below 80 chars
03:26:28 <mibygl> Oh, that actually is what I was looking for.
03:27:05 <oerjan> unfortunately, that causes it to take some more time to get up to speed
03:27:12 <mibygl> Why doesn't that first output a bunch of *?
03:27:20 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**----
03:27:20 <EgoBot> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
03:27:24 <oerjan> er wait
03:27:32 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**--
03:27:43 <mibygl> Since the first /@/\/... just makes the @s into *s, doesn't it?
03:28:00 <oerjan> that must have been fairly big because it doesn't print anything XD
03:28:07 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**--
03:28:07 <EgoBot> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
03:28:42 <oerjan> um no, it turns the @'s into * 3/2-icaters
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03:29:08 <mibygl> Mmkay.
03:29:55 <mibygl> So, have you beat the one that uses only one 38er yet?
03:30:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:30:33 <oerjan> well, i _hope_ the thing with 6 @'s above failed to respond because it got really big
03:31:19 <mibygl> Calculate how many it makes!
03:31:45 <oerjan> the 3/2 thing makes that a little awkward :D
03:33:44 -!- pikhq has joined.
03:34:02 <oerjan> !haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in iterate m3h 2 !! 5
03:34:13 <EgoBot> 13
03:34:38 <oerjan> !haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in iterate m3h 2 !! 6
03:34:40 <EgoBot> 19
03:34:54 <mibygl> What does that mean?
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03:35:32 <oerjan> it means the 5 @'s produce 13 *'s and the 6 @'s produce 19 *'s
03:35:49 <oerjan> !haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in iterate m3h 2 !! 1
03:35:51 <EgoBot> 3
03:36:21 <oerjan> !haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in map (iterate m3h 2 !!) [13,19]
03:36:23 <EgoBot> [316,3597]
03:37:18 <EgoBot> 471
03:37:53 <oerjan> um wait that makes no sense
03:38:37 <mibygl> If 19 is all you get, then this is worthless.
03:39:06 <oerjan> the @@@@@ one above printed more than 316 -'s, something is wrong
03:40:01 <oerjan> !haskell let m3h n = 3*d + r where (d,r) = n `quotRem` 2 in map (iterate m3h 2 !!) [1..19]
03:40:03 <EgoBot> [3,4,6,9,13,19,28,42,63,94,141,211,316,474,711,1066,1599,2398,3597]
03:41:07 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@**
03:41:07 <EgoBot> *************
03:41:21 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@@**
03:41:22 <EgoBot> *******************
03:43:09 <oerjan> 0123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789
03:43:24 <oerjan> (just checking if my terminal is really 80 wide
03:43:25 <oerjan> )
03:44:31 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\//@@@@@/*/\/-\\-\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/-\\-\\-\//**--
03:44:32 <EgoBot> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
03:45:27 <oerjan> what the...
03:45:35 <oerjan> that is _not_ what egobot printed the last time
03:46:24 <oerjan> it had about another line. perhaps that 3597 long one previous caused a bug...
03:46:56 <oerjan> it never printed anything, after all.
03:47:45 <oerjan> anyway 3597 is worthless, as you say, we hadn't even filled in with @'s from the single substitution one
03:49:03 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/*\\*\/+\\+\/\/+\\+\/*\\*\\*\\*\//@@@@@@@@@@@**
03:49:25 <oerjan> that should be 4096, although it seems to stall egobot again
03:49:33 <oerjan> !slashes Boo!
03:49:33 <EgoBot> ************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
03:51:10 <oerjan> !slashes /-**/*-/---****************
03:51:10 <EgoBot> **---
03:51:44 <oerjan> hm wait that can be reversed :D
03:52:10 <mibygl> Ooh, it can!
03:52:10 <oerjan> !slashes /-*/**-/--------*
03:52:10 <EgoBot> ****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************--------
03:52:29 <mibygl> And you can do that lots of times.
03:52:37 <oerjan> _now_ we're kicking :D
03:52:44 <mibygl> Getting something like 2^^14 of them.
03:53:45 <oerjan> !slashes /-*/**-//*-/--*/--*
03:53:51 <oerjan> oh wait
03:53:59 <oerjan> !slashes Boo!
03:54:00 <EgoBot> Boo!
03:54:14 <oerjan> !slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*/--*
03:54:14 <EgoBot> --------------------------------****
03:55:13 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/-*\/**-\/\/*-\/--\\*\//@-*
03:55:14 <EgoBot> ----**
03:55:52 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/-\\*\/**\\-\/\/*\\-\/--\\*\//@-*
03:55:52 <EgoBot> ----**
03:55:58 <oerjan> !slashes /@/\/-\\*\/**\\-\/\/*\\-\/--\\*\//@@-*
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03:56:10 <oerjan> !slashes Boo!
03:56:11 <EgoBot> Boo!
03:56:23 <oerjan> apparently too much to hope for
03:57:38 <oerjan> !slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*//-\*/**\-/--*
03:57:47 <oerjan> !slashes Boo!
03:57:48 <EgoBot> Boo!
03:58:31 <oerjan> !slashes /-*/**-/----**
03:58:32 <EgoBot> ********************************----
03:58:50 <oerjan> now why didn't the previous one print the same...
04:00:00 <oerjan> i escaped every relevant *- boundary inside the substitutions that i can see...
04:00:01 <mibygl> What are we hoping for that's too much?
04:00:47 <Sgeo> Quick question about the BSD license: What do I put for "Organization", given that it's myself?
04:00:55 <oerjan> to be able to copy substitutions into @'s, and then apply them to pass - and * doubling past each other four times...
04:00:59 -!- pikhq has joined.
04:01:24 <Sgeo> ??
04:01:28 <oerjan> "No, completely chaotic"
04:01:34 <Sgeo> lol
04:01:47 <Sgeo> "Neither the name of the Sgeo"
04:02:04 <mibygl> Last time I put an organization into an Organization box, it credited all my work to that organization.
04:02:24 <oerjan> !slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*/--*
04:02:25 <EgoBot> --------------------------------****
04:02:29 <Sgeo> What's the MIT license like?
04:02:50 <oerjan> !slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*/-*
04:02:51 <EgoBot> ----**
04:03:01 <Sgeo> I like it
04:03:06 <oerjan> !slashes /-*/**-//*-/--\*//-\*/**\-/-*
04:03:07 <EgoBot> ********************************----
04:03:26 <oerjan> that was better. and one more iteration would kill it XD
04:04:41 <oerjan> which means two @'s is too much to hope for again. hm...
04:09:15 <oerjan> -* => **- => ----** => 32*, 4- => 4*2^32-, 32* => 32*2^(4*2^32)*, 4*2^32- => ...
04:10:29 * Sgeo wonders if codepad.org is an inappropriate way to distribute this code
04:14:11 <Sgeo> Such a mess :/
04:17:43 <mibygl> What is that code?
04:20:59 <Sgeo> Python mapping of a C API
04:32:31 <oerjan> !slashes /*1/11*//*\*/*//1*/*1+//1+/+1/*****1
04:32:44 <oerjan> !slashes Boo!
04:32:44 <EgoBot> Boo!
04:32:57 <oerjan> !slashes /*1/11*//*\*/*//1*/*\1+//1+/+1/*****1
04:32:58 <EgoBot> *++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++11111111111111111111111111111111
04:41:24 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//++/+0+//+///(//(((((1)
04:41:25 <EgoBot> 000000000000000000000000000000023
04:44:23 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((1)
04:44:23 <EgoBot> 23
04:45:39 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((((1)
04:45:39 <EgoBot> 2
04:46:41 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1+/(((((((1)
04:46:42 <EgoBot> (++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++11+
04:49:28 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+/(((((((1)
04:49:29 <EgoBot> (++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111+
04:50:15 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((((1)
04:50:15 <EgoBot> 128
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04:51:59 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(11111)
04:51:59 <EgoBot> 10
04:52:42 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
04:52:48 <EgoBot> 1024
05:01:01 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
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05:04:27 <mibygl> Hey, you got it to output 1024.
05:07:45 <mibygl> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+111111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
05:07:52 <EgoBot> 4314
05:07:58 <mibygl> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+11111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
05:08:04 <EgoBot> 8231
05:08:07 <mibygl> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
05:08:10 <mibygl> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+11111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
05:08:12 <mibygl> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
05:08:15 <EgoBot> 132343
05:08:18 <EgoBot> 2000
05:08:20 <EgoBot> 2662
05:08:24 <mibygl> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
05:08:26 <mibygl> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+11111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
05:08:31 <mibygl> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((((1)
05:08:31 <EgoBot> 4424
05:08:33 <EgoBot> 13044
05:08:37 <EgoBot> 100000
05:08:40 <mibygl> I must say, this function doesn't make much sense.
05:08:51 <oerjan> what?
05:09:15 <mibygl> This is what I get for trying to understand things without analyzing them.
05:09:36 <oerjan> well what you are doing is changing the output base
05:10:42 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Char; import Numeric; main = print [showIntAtBase n intToDigit 1024 | n <- [2..10]]
05:10:57 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Char; import Numeric; main = print [showIntAtBase n intToDigit 1024 "" | n <- [2..10]]
05:11:00 <EgoBot> ["10000000000","1101221","100000","13044","4424","2662","2000","1357","1024"]
05:11:21 * Sgeo is confused
05:11:55 <oerjan> well the parts from 2000 and down, at least
05:13:00 <oerjan> !haskell import Data.Char; import Numeric; main = print [showIntAtBase n intToDigit 1024 "" | n <- [2..12]]
05:13:02 <EgoBot> ["10000000000","1101221","100000","13044","4424","2662","2000","1357","1024","851","714"]
05:14:12 <oerjan> oh!
05:14:46 <oerjan> i need to reorder a bit
05:15:20 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(111)
05:15:21 <EgoBot> 6
05:15:59 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//41/5//42/6//61/7//44/8//81/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((111111111)
05:15:59 <EgoBot> 432
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05:17:41 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((111111111)
05:17:41 <EgoBot> 432
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05:18:26 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((((1)
05:18:26 <EgoBot> 128
05:18:40 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((1)
05:18:40 <EgoBot> 32
05:18:51 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//((((((((1)
05:18:51 <EgoBot> 256
05:18:55 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((((((1)
05:18:56 <EgoBot> 512
05:19:48 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//(((((111)
05:19:48 <EgoBot> 96
05:20:23 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//111()
05:20:23 <EgoBot> 3
05:21:08 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//25/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//111() 1111() 11111() 111111() 1111111() 11111111() 111111111()
05:21:08 <EgoBot> 3 4 5 6 43 8 9
05:21:21 -!- Copyleftist has quit (Client Quit).
05:21:30 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//43/7//44/8//45/9//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//111() 1111() 11111() 111111() 1111111() 11111111() 111111111()
05:21:31 <EgoBot> 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
05:27:07 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+111111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//43/7//44/8//45/9//46/A//47/B//84/C//85/D//86/E//87/F//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//1() (1) 1(1) ((1) 1((1) (1(1) 1(1(1) (((1) 1(((1) (1((1) 1(1((1) ((1(1)) 1((1(1)) (1(1(1)) 1(1(1(1)) ((((1)
05:27:07 <EgoBot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B 100 110 120 130 14
05:27:39 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//43/7//44/8//45/9//46/A//47/B//84/C//85/D//86/E//87/F//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//1() (1) 1(1) ((1) 1((1) (1(1) 1(1(1) (((1) 1(((1) (1((1) 1(1((1) ((1(1)) 1((1(1)) (1(1(1)) 1(1(1(1)) ((((1)
05:27:40 <EgoBot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C0 D0 E0 F0 10
05:27:59 <oerjan> huh
05:28:37 <oerjan> oh
05:28:53 <oerjan> !slashes /(1/11(//(\(/(//1(/(\1+//1+/+1//)/+//+1111111111111111/1\+//11/2//21/3//22/4//23/5//42/6//43/7//44/8//45/9//46/A//47/B//84/C//85/D//86/E//87/F//(+/(//++/+0+//+///(//1() (1) 1(1) ((1) 1((1) (1(1) 1(1(1) (((1) 1(((1) (1((1) 1(1((1) ((1(1) 1((1(1) (1(1(1) 1(1(1(1) ((((1)
05:28:53 <EgoBot> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F 10
05:29:39 <oerjan> hi
05:30:43 <oerjan> well i should be going to bed but instead i'm apparently doing number display in /// :)
05:32:06 <oerjan> (aka slashes)
05:33:58 <adu> i'm writing an arbitrary-precision lib
05:34:16 <adu> which i will use to write a serialization lib
05:34:28 <adu> which i will use to write a scripting language
05:34:48 <adu> which i will use to write simulation software
05:34:57 <adu> which i will use to write artificial intelligence
05:35:05 <adu> which i will use to take over the world !!!
05:35:20 <oerjan> dammit i was going to joke how this would end :D
05:35:49 <oerjan> you missed "write an operating system" in there, though
05:36:00 <adu> no, i don't need to write an os
05:36:10 <adu> that's where the AI comes in
05:36:14 <oerjan> ah.
05:36:21 <adu> it will write all the drivers for me
05:37:25 <adu> it will also reverse engineer Win32 drivers as well
05:37:38 <adu> it will do everyone's homework
05:37:54 <oerjan> um... that's not a good thing?
05:38:15 <oerjan> doing everyone's homework
05:38:20 <adu> ya i was jk
05:38:43 <adu> that would be like, some kinda VIP service
05:39:28 <adu> oerjan: what would you have AI do for you?
05:41:42 <oerjan> tricky
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08:02:23 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: PyFunge bug: if ; is the first character in a file, it doesn't work properly
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09:36:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, interesting bug
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09:50:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a bit hard to test with mycology though I imagine?
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11:43:45 <alise> hail
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12:18:50 <AnMaster> alise, hi
12:18:54 <alise> Hi.
12:19:20 <AnMaster> also I found out why I was unable to use some 802.11n networks. Wrong reg domain setting.
12:19:41 <AnMaster> (that issue confused me for months)
12:20:28 <alise> dear diary
12:20:35 <AnMaster> (it was on "world" setting, which is defined as the subset of channels allowed everywhere)
12:20:49 <AnMaster> alise, wrong window :P
12:20:57 <alise> not quite
12:22:14 <AnMaster> what were you going to tell it then?
12:22:47 <alise> Actually I was being a jerk to you
12:22:51 <alise> :P
12:23:56 <AnMaster> I shouldn't be surprised
12:41:18 <alise> Now where is coppro?
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13:01:03 <AnMaster> bbl for the rest of the day
13:01:08 <AnMaster> (out of town, no internet)
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13:35:38 <alise> fpqrsuvtu
13:38:52 <alise> Oh, dear; an unwinnable game of robotfindskitten.
14:09:09 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Well yes, I'd need a separate file but I won't bother with that for a bug that only shows up in one interpreter
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14:52:52 <fizzie> My rfk86 is a bit prone to unwinnables, because the screen is smaller than is typical, but I think I generate the same amount of NKIs.
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18:21:18 * Sgeo will try walking outside a bit today
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18:59:58 <AnMaster> <alise> Oh, dear; an unwinnable game of robotfindskitten. <-- is that possible!?
19:00:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, NKI?
19:03:04 <AnMaster> also I need to figure out how to make ubuntu call iw reg set SV on boot...
19:05:08 <AnMaster> err SE of course
19:05:09 <AnMaster> not SV
19:06:38 <AnMaster> problem is that it needs to be done before the wlan interface goes up, otherwise it won't take effect for some reason
19:06:45 <AnMaster> so thus rc.local won't work
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19:52:49 <alise> Hello, hello, hello, hello!
19:53:26 <pikhq> Hellote.
19:54:33 <alise> 11:00:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, NKI?
19:54:33 <alise> non-kitten items
19:54:35 <alise> 10:59:58 <AnMaster> <alise> Oh, dear; an unwinnable game of robotfindskitten. <-- is that possible!?
19:54:38 <alise> Apparently in the flash version.
19:54:58 <fax> alise
19:54:58 <fax> alise
19:55:04 <AnMaster> alise, I thought the kitten was always generated, but I guess I was wrong
19:55:30 <alise> I am not using my laptop!; I am using the ole' desktop. Not the iMac.
19:55:41 <alise> Is a semicolon after an exclamation mark /really/ valid? I mean, honestly.
19:56:13 <pikhq> It ought to be.
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19:57:25 <AnMaster> alise, perfectly, ! is logical not, and ; is "skip to next ; in path"
19:57:45 <alise> Your wittosity is unmatched, surely.
19:57:49 <alise> In this world. Universe!
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20:04:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: In rfk86, at least, the kitten is always generated, but it may be unreachable.
20:04:15 <alise> xD
20:14:41 <alise> gtg
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20:22:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh?
20:23:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, does that even make sense?
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20:31:38 <fax> where is alise
20:31:39 <fax> fffffffffffffffff
20:44:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: Sure. You can't move diagonally in rfk86, so if you have an object that is surrounded by 4 other objects (in the corner, 2 other objects is enough), you can't ever touch that object. If it happens to be the kitten, you are out of luck.
20:47:42 <fizzie> (You can move diagonally in the official robotfindskitten, but that just means you need more stuff to block the kitten totally.)
20:49:33 <fizzie> And, after all, robot must touch items to determine if they are kitten or not.
20:51:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, true
20:52:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I never seen an unreachable object in the "official" one
20:54:48 <fizzie> If you hve a large terminal, it's pretty unlikely. But it's still possible.
20:55:19 <fizzie> With a 20x5 terminal window (where you only get 20x2 cells of grid) it happens more often than not.
20:56:31 <fizzie> And if you make a small enough terminal window, robotfindskitten ends up in an infinite 100%-CPU loop; probably it's trying to place objects randomly and not finding any free slots.
20:58:44 <oklopol> lol
20:59:18 <oklopol> i remember when i was 8 and had that bug
20:59:24 <oklopol> in a prog
21:09:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm terminal is 180x41 according stty size
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22:22:52 * isthac is no entirely satisfied with his nick, wanted something that sounded like it was straight out of lovecraft's work
22:23:46 -!- isthac has changed nick to hiato.
22:27:59 <Gregor> And you stuck with it for so long, too.
22:30:51 <hiato> I know, having withdrawel symptoms as we epeak, but my newly hired councellor says i'll get through it
22:38:34 -!- hiato has left (?).
22:41:11 <Gregor> Huh.
22:41:17 <Gregor> .za is to South Africa as .ch is to Switzerland.
22:41:26 <Gregor> In that it's not actually short for any /official/ name.
22:41:27 <Gregor> Weird.
22:42:20 <pikhq> Weird.
22:43:09 <pikhq> Though, .za would have at least made since if the TLDs were done in '65. :P
22:43:51 <pikhq> (.za is an abbreviation of Zuid-Afrika, Dutch for South Africa. Dutch was an official language there before '65.)
22:49:10 <Gregor> You'd have to go back a bit farther for .ch
22:49:27 <pikhq> Confoederatio Helvetica.
22:49:56 <pikhq> Which actually makes a *little* bit of sense. That's apparently minted on Swiss coins...
22:51:08 <pikhq> Hah. .su exists.
22:51:18 <pikhq> (TLD for the Soviet Union)
22:52:40 <Sgeo> There's someone with the email address n@ai
22:53:08 <pikhq> I'd like to see someone with the address root@.
22:53:34 <pikhq> HE ADMINISTERS THE ENTIRE NET
22:53:52 <Sgeo> Well, DNS
22:54:05 <pikhq> ENTIRE. NET.
22:54:36 <Gregor> THE TUBERWEBS
22:54:42 <pikhq> YES
22:58:02 <pikhq> DNS TLDs are fairly ridiculous.
22:58:16 <pikhq> .cat is a gTLD.
22:58:23 <pikhq> It is reserved for sites in Catalan.
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22:58:57 <pikhq> (a somewhat obscure Romance language)
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23:01:37 <oklopol> sometimes i like to pretend pikhq never googles anything but actually just happens to know everything
23:02:10 <pikhq> Hah.
23:02:17 <pikhq> I <3 me Wikipedias.
23:04:03 * Sgeo once tried to make a mathematical proof that no omniscient beings existed
23:04:29 <oklopol> there's this wp page about one of our professors that says he studies math and something like alien abductions. i almost asked him about this, but luckily found out that the wp page had actually confused two professors with the same name before
23:04:33 <pikhq> Sgeo: Under what axioms?
23:04:54 * Sgeo didn't QUITE grasp that Turing machines didn't take/need to take input/output, and that not being computable by a turing machine != not knowable
23:05:05 <pikhq> Hah.
23:05:43 <pikhq> Yeah, a UTM is a machine that can compute any algorithm, not a magic machine that does everything. :P
23:05:53 <pikhq> (that's a UTM + magic oracle)
23:06:13 <pikhq> Hmm. Magic oracle? Me want.
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23:34:51 <fizzie> Is hiato's "newly hired councellor" some sort of sneak-dig at the ehird of many names?
23:35:27 <fax> why isn't alise back
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23:53:08 <fax> grrrrrr
23:56:24 <coppro> Sgeo: the input and output of a TM are the tape
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