00:05:35 "END 00:05:36 Like BAD, but worse. The interpreter terminated, either as a result of Mycology realizing that the interpreter doesn’t support something required in a future test, or as a result of the interpreter crashing." How, exactly, is Mycology able to detect the interpreter crashing? 00:06:16 Perhaps a wrapper shell script? Dunno. 00:06:18 Oh. 00:06:22 That's just how he reported the results. 00:06:26 Not what Mycology /says/. 00:10:59 If I make a t for LiveFunge-98, will anyone be angry? 00:12:54 ? 00:13:17 Concurrent Befunge-93! 00:14:14 there are no Befunge jobs, silly :-P 00:15:21 you said -98 00:15:54 * Sgeo meant -93 00:15:55 >.> 00:17:12 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:17:54 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:18:47 -!- Asztal has joined. 00:30:06 * Sgeo misreads Church's Thesis as "Chuck's Thesis" 00:31:46 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: Rugxulo). 00:32:24 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:32:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:38:01 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 00:50:07 -!- jcp has joined. 00:59:33 -!- alise has joined. 00:59:36 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.39.4193 00:59:37 this is GOLD 00:59:41 -!- alise has set topic: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.39.4193 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:59:45 someone please remind me of it next week 01:00:56 Note that here we make an essential use of the universes hierarchy: There is not a unique CAT , 01:00:57 there is a family of CATi , and each CATi is a Categoryj for i < j . Thus we do not have \small" 01:00:57 and \large" categories, but \relatively small" categories. Thus the construction of CAT above is 01:00:57 consistent with the analysis by Coquand 4] of paradoxes related to the category of categories. 01:00:59 amazing 01:01:07 i gotta go now 01:01:10 Sgeo: it's time again 01:01:28 Bye alise 01:01:41 see you guyayayz 01:02:11 Keep working on improving your situation 01:02:25 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:02:27 yep 01:02:27 bye 01:02:31 -!- alise has quit (Client Quit). 01:12:08 tried implementing bf using a very small subset of my language's features in order to try and catch the ones that were already implemented 01:12:43 turns out I have to implement a huge amount of new stuff and complicate the grammar in order to do something useful 01:27:16 -!- coppro has joined. 01:29:51 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:30:32 -!- coppro has joined. 01:38:55 -!- aschueler has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:41:14 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: reboot). 02:06:28 -!- cheater2 has joined. 02:11:59 -!- Sleeping_boy has joined. 02:21:52 -!- Sleeping_boy has quit (Quit: 暂离). 02:28:33 -!- coppro has joined. 02:35:55 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.). 02:36:22 -!- michael__ has joined. 02:36:40 -!- michael__ has changed nick to maedhros777. 02:37:28 Does anyone here know of a good Fugue compiler besides this one: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Fugue_Compiler? Because I'm having problems with that compiler. 02:38:21 I use Linux, and when I run the executable that's created it says "cannot execute binary file" 02:43:45 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 02:46:18 maedhros777: Looks to me like that compiler's output is PE/COFF for Windows. Try wine? Alternatively, write your own :) 02:46:56 Ok, I'll try wine -- judging by the size of the compiler, I don't think I could write my own :) 02:51:51 Sounds like it's about time for EgoFugue :P 02:52:20 I just tried wine and it didn't work, unfortunately. Maybe I'll have to write my own compiler, because this language seems interesting. 02:52:46 What would be really awesome would be if I could make a piece that actually sounded good and executed :) 02:53:29 Bye now. 02:53:31 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:55:35 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 02:55:36 AndroFugue! 02:55:43 * Sgeo is obsessed with Android 02:58:55 -!- jcp has joined. 03:00:00 -!- augur has joined. 03:29:43 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 03:33:14 lower ASCII values 03:33:14 means lower precedence (isn't that *much* easier to remember? 03:34:06 http://catseye.tc/projects/n-dcnc/doc/readme.txt 03:34:16 Aces are only high in certain restricted situations, such 03:34:17 as when the compiler mistakenly assumes they are high. 03:38:48 Awesome! 03:38:58 Ifs are division by 0! 03:39:05 erm, just division 03:45:12 that language spec is awesome 03:56:50 * Sgeo notes that there exists another Concurrent Befunge-93 interpreter 04:00:24 * Sgeo thinks that a Befunge-93 Live Wallpaper might not actually be that pretty 04:36:06 Sgeo: android can have live wallpaper? 04:36:28 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hz1YBcYw_qE 04:37:40 As of 2.1 I think 04:50:57 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 05:20:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:26:08 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:34:29 -!- coppro has joined. 05:36:47 -!- Owner has joined. 05:37:06 -!- Owner has changed nick to evincar. 05:37:45 Arbitrary obligatory introduction. 05:39:43 What, nobody's up tonight? 05:41:59 * Sgeo is awake 05:42:18 Woah hey. 05:42:21 I'm not alone. 05:47:24 You working on anything interesting? 05:48:06 If you asked me around the beginning of 2008, I'd have said yes 05:48:21 Actually, I am working on something now not related to esolangs 05:48:58 -!- augur has joined. 05:49:11 Haha...well, I've got a while. What's the story from then to now? 05:49:35 No one but me cared, so I stopped 05:49:49 * Sgeo was an overzealous promoter 05:50:05 Esolangs'll do that to you. 05:50:12 Cruell mistresses, the lot of 'em. 05:50:52 For the record, that was supposed to be "cruelle", but I mistyped my misspelling. :/ 05:51:54 Anyway, what's the project of the now? 05:52:43 A game 05:52:49 In Active Worlds 05:52:57 That I shouldn't be talking about, but have, at length 05:53:18 Haha...love that. 05:53:24 Call it drumming up interest. 05:53:34 lol 05:54:20 All the language stuff I do nowadays is DSLs to fill specific needs in other projects. 05:54:24 http://sourceforge.net/projects/protodata/ 05:54:38 https://sourceforge.net/projects/vision-language/ 05:55:04 * Sgeo is eating then sleeping 05:55:10 I'll look at those another day probably 05:55:27 Alright, whatever you want. 05:55:38 I'm just trying to kill some time, honestly. 05:55:50 Somebody caring would be pretty cool, though. 05:56:03 Hm, those project seem interesting 05:56:14 Oh, and someone reviewed the Vision Web Template thing 05:56:27 Eh? 05:56:29 Although I don't quite understand that one. The Protodata seems nice 05:56:34 http://sourceforge.net/projects/vision-language/ 05:56:58 Oh, yeah, that's from a friend of mine. :P 05:57:09 morning 05:57:14 Evening. 05:57:28 Night 05:57:29 heh not in Europe I guess 05:57:32 and bbl, going to university → 05:57:39 Laters. 05:57:43 (And no.) 06:00:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:01:02 -!- augur has joined. 06:09:05 Welp, there goes my interaction for the night. 06:09:09 -!- evincar has quit (Quit: Sleep.). 06:47:15 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:50:46 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:57:35 -!- tombom has joined. 07:48:44 -!- jcp has quit (Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router.). 07:50:39 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:50:49 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:23 -!- adam_d has joined. 08:41:02 I recommend that everyone go watch this movie Following by Chris Nolan 08:54:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:54:51 -!- augur has joined. 08:57:49 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:04:59 -!- lament has quit (Quit: lament). 09:14:39 -!- aschueler has joined. 09:15:47 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:50:26 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 10:06:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:06:47 hi 10:07:39 current connection is ssh tunnel over unreliable university wlan, and there are microwave ovens near here, so if I don't reply suddenly you now know why. 10:08:34 hmm, ok 10:08:41 my connection is similar, except without the tunnel 10:11:12 you both have sucky connections it seems :( 11:03:00 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 11:06:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:06:26 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 11:33:48 -!- cheater2 has joined. 11:42:28 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:14:00 -!- zdhwjcln has joined. 12:14:26 Are there somebody? 12:14:52 -!- zdhwjcln has left (?). 12:20:55 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:23:02 zdhwjcln: yes but you didn't stay long enough to find out 12:23:15 also, that's a pretty dubious hostname (~Administr as the username, and an IP) 12:42:30 Yes... I turned on the radio this morning and heard something like, "A volcano has erupted in Iceland... but we can't tell you which one, since none of us American reporters would even dare to try to pronounce the name. Tweet us if you know how." 12:47:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:52:12 alise for the logs: the iPhone developer contract is getting even crazier, see http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/04/with-new-developer-agreement-apple-unlevels-the-iad-playing-field/ 12:52:41 it looks like they've done enough stupid arbitrary restrictions on programmers for the time being, now they're going after marketers 12:53:30 and managing to get rid of loads of useful information for programmers at the same time 13:03:10 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:04:58 -!- lereah_ has joined. 13:08:02 -!- cheater2 has joined. 13:37:45 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:50:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 14:28:17 -!- aschueler has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:30:30 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 14:30:52 Does anyone know of a good Prelude compiler? 14:32:13 If there's not one linked on the wiki, then there's probably not one ... which means it's time for you to write one ... although prelude being semi-multithreaded would make that interesting ;) 14:32:38 There is one on the wiki, but I don't think it works. 14:33:05 I think I might write a Prelude to C compiler and then write a Fugue to Prelude compiler. 14:33:15 And then put it on the wiki 14:33:20 Good, that means I don't have to. 14:33:24 :) 14:33:38 Does a period do anything in Prelude? 14:33:46 I have a prelude to BF compiler somewhere, IIRC 14:33:55 Really? 14:33:57 Where? 14:33:58 wait, no, other way round 14:34:01 Darn 14:34:07 I think i saw it on the wiki 14:34:16 So does a period do anything? 14:34:34 hmm, I have a Prelude interp, it seems 14:34:40 Where? 14:34:53 On the wiki? 14:35:01 on my hard drive, but I could paste it as soon as I figure out how it works 14:35:14 and it doesn't seem to do anything special in response to . 14:35:15 How did you make it without knowing how it works? 14:35:19 oh, I did once 14:35:23 Ok 14:35:26 but it's years old 14:35:34 Could you put it on the wiki? 14:35:48 $ ls -l prelude.c 14:35:49 -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 4309 2006-08-06 17:35 prelude.c 14:35:54 wow, that's old 14:35:58 :) 14:36:07 Nice, you use Linux 14:36:18 yep; unfortunately the code appears to be DOS-specific 14:36:24 Too bad 14:36:34 I guess I'll just write my own compiler. 14:36:37 but luckily, I had a hint of cross-platform-ness back then and put the DOS stuff in #defines 14:36:51 so it should be a one-line change to port 14:37:06 Should I make it to C or to BrainF**k, do you think? 14:37:28 if you're compiling, to C might be easier 14:37:39 emulating the effective multiple tapes thing isn't that bad in BF, but it may take some thought 14:37:50 Yeah, I guess so. Bye now, I'll put it on the wiki when I'm finished. 14:37:53 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:38:16 Do people have something against staying on IRC... 14:38:19 hmm, I was about to paste it as well 14:38:20 http://www.pastebin.ca/1867807 14:39:10 lol 14:39:31 oh, it's not only on the wiki already 14:39:37 but someone ported it to POSIX 14:40:21 what you really don't want to see is my Prelude to Fugue compiler 14:40:37 because it was so specific to the specific system it was running on, I think it could only have run on that one computer 14:40:51 it first worked out what the sequence of notes was (sane) 14:41:21 then sent a sequence of keystrokes via the Windows SendKeys API to a proprietary MIDI editor which had its keyboard shortcuts set up to be able to receive them properly (insane) 14:41:54 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:43:45 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 14:44:16 Wait, I just thought of something -- what do ^ and v do in Prelude, exactly? Because I don't get the wiki's explanation. 14:44:48 maedhros777: why don't you stay in the channel, btw? 14:44:55 Sure, ok 14:45:02 we discovered that my compiler was the one that was already on the wiki just after you left 14:45:08 except that on the wiki, it was ported to Linux# 14:45:14 You mean the interpreter? 14:45:17 err, yes 14:45:37 Does it work? Because I tried the hello world example and it didn't do anything 14:45:39 anyway, ^ and v basically peek the top of the next voice's stack 14:45:45 and push onto the current stack 14:45:52 also, what syntax did you use to run it 14:46:23 it seems to take a file from the command line and output on stdout 14:46:34 I compiled the interpreter, put it in my path, and did: $ prelude helloworld.txt 14:46:46 Nothing happened 14:46:57 Here's the hello world: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#Prelude 14:47:03 Nothing happened = it hung, or it quit with no output 14:47:13 Quit with no output 14:47:22 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 14:47:31 I just ran that program through the interpreter and it worked fine 14:47:37 however, it doesn't output a final newline 14:47:42 so it's possible that your command prompt overwrote it 14:47:51 Ok, let me try it again. 14:48:07 I'll have to download the interpreter again, because I just deleted it :) 14:48:08 try adding "; echo" to the end of the command line to add a newline 14:48:47 Wait, yours is the C interpreter, right? Not the python one? 14:48:50 yes 14:48:55 ok, hang on 14:49:13 I'm a Perl fan, it's pretty rare for me to write things in Python as a result ;) 14:49:16 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:49:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 14:49:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:49:21 E_WORKSFORME 14:50:44 -!- Gregor-L has set topic: #esoteric, the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment - #esoteric is not associated with the joke language Perl, please visit www.perl.org - logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/. 14:50:53 Didn't work 14:51:11 E_YOUFAILATC :P 14:51:17 This is the code you're using, right? 14:51:21 ...8+.!v...4+.1+!..v!..vvv...4+.!vvv.....9+.3-!###!..v6-!..vv..v 14:51:23 9+(1-)^#7+(1-)..^7+!^3+!##8+(1-)^###9+1+(1-)..^^^^^3+!..^8-!#1+! 14:53:27 Right? 14:53:57 I was kind of confused about all the periods 14:56:32 Presumably nops. 14:56:41 To synchronize "timing", you have to waste time. 14:56:56 Oh, I get it 14:57:05 So was that the program you were running? 14:57:12 Yeah 14:57:20 That's strange 14:58:00 And this is the interpreter you're using, right? http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/files/prelude/impl/prelude.c 14:58:04 yes 14:58:14 just downloaded, compiled and ran it 14:58:23 Then what could I be doing wrong? 14:58:48 my guess is the problem's with I/O somehow 14:58:55 I guess 14:58:58 either providing the wrong input, or looking in the wrong place for the output 14:59:08 Hang on, I'll look at the interpreter 15:00:32 on another topic, I finally discovered the solution to something that had been bothering me for days: http://www.astucia.co.uk/products/product-details?categoryid=176910&productid=179235&class=product 15:00:51 I was walking for miles down a cycle path and wondering wtf those things were (it was daytime) 15:00:57 :) 15:01:17 but luckily some of them were unworn enough to have readable brand names on, and I traced them via the company that made them 15:01:38 (you don't know how hard it is to make out the word "Astucia" when it's mostly covered by dirt and worn in places...) 15:04:22 ais523: Does interstack communication create a race condition in Prelude, or is there a guaranteed order of evaluation between the voices? 15:04:35 So what are cv, nv, sp, c, and f? 15:04:48 Gregor-L: I don't see any evidence that it isn't a race condition; that hello world is designed to avoid races with appropriate NOPing 15:04:50 I can't really tell without enough description in the variable names 15:05:17 maedhros777: You don't find those variable names helpful and self-explanatory? :P 15:05:19 current voice, number of voices for the first two 15:05:41 Oh, okay. I'll go replace the variable names :) 15:05:44 sp seems to be the instruction pointer 15:06:06 c seems to just be a generic temporary 15:06:14 Okay 15:06:21 and f's a flag used for breaking out of loops 15:07:09 hmm, kind of ridiculous that I can refigure out what this code does so quickly after not seeing it for three years 15:07:26 And what does kp stand for? 15:08:03 must be the stack pointer 15:08:11 stacK Pointer 15:08:12 well, the array of stack pointers 15:08:22 ais523 doesn't quite ... "get" initialisms. 15:08:22 Ok 15:08:23 still, I have no clue why the IP is called sp 15:08:33 Gregor-L: s/doesn't/didn't/ 15:08:38 lawl 15:08:49 there's no evidence as to whether I get them or not atm 15:09:24 oh, I've also noticed that that program only has one way to exit, and it's always with status code EXIT_FAILURE 15:09:28 which is... slightly bizarre 15:09:36 =D 15:10:02 (not counting command line arg problems, which /also/ exit with EXIT_FAILURE) 15:10:26 It's just scolding you for using esolangs. 15:10:38 Even if it works, running it is still FAILURE. 15:10:48 at least I can guess why the static arrays are 10 by 6553; it must be to prevent exceeding the maximum static array size limit in DOS 15:10:59 nah, it's scolding you for not writing infinite loops 15:11:11 int kp[10]={0}; /* stack pointers. Points to TOS. */ 15:11:18 hmm, there's actually a comment saying what kp does 15:11:31 stacK Pointers 15:12:06 at least the code doesn't randomly break with 32-bit ints 15:12:15 -!- songhead95 has joined. 15:12:21 (up until around 4 or 5 years ago, I used to write all my code assuming int was 16 bits) 15:12:28 Wow 15:12:28 (apart from when it really had to use the win32 API) 15:12:29 Wow 15:12:32 Fail 15:12:40 ais523: Welcome to the 21st century :P 15:12:45 thanks 15:13:12 What changed around 4 or 5 years ago? 15:13:22 Deewiant: He installed Windows 95 15:13:24 moved to Linux 15:13:31 Gregor-L: nah, this was even on Windows XP 15:13:43 actually, to UNIX first, then Linux 15:13:47 Long live Linux 15:13:57 What distro do you run? 15:14:08 OH GOD NO I see distro wars ahead *sobs* 15:14:12 Gregor-L: I got really disappointed that the deprecated API for working the PC speaker directly was removed in Windows XP, I used to have fun with that one 15:14:21 Nah, I don't care much about different distros 15:14:25 ais523: And that drove you to Linux? 15:14:32 fizzie: X-D 15:14:42 maedhros777: originally, Ubuntu because it was preinstalled, then Ubuntu again because I had to replace my laptop in a hurry and didn't want too radical a change while I was in the middle of something else 15:14:52 Yeah, I use Ubuntu too 15:14:55 fizzie: that, and the random 20-second pauses whenever you tried to load a MIDI file 15:15:08 OpenSUSE looks pretty good though, I might try it sometime 15:15:22 in the end, my games just spent 5 or 6 minutes at the start loading all the MIDI files so it could play them immediately 15:15:38 -!- deschutron has joined. 15:15:51 Our workstations here at work used to run OpenSUSE, but they went Ubuntu recently-ish; not many years ago. 15:15:52 Sidux blar blar 15:15:52 (the strange thing is, this bug affected Microsoft's own media player too, although for some reason there, it happened the second time the file was loaded, rather than the first) 15:16:02 Nowait 15:16:04 LFS blar blar 15:16:09 All other distros are for pussies. 15:16:29 =D 15:17:46 Some of these cluster nodes here run CentOS, I think. 15:18:16 CentOS is amusing. Getting some money now and then would be nice ... NO. 15:18:18 the desktop in my office triple-boots CentOS, CentOS, and Windows 7 15:18:23 -!- lereah_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:18:32 Gregor-L: yet Red Hat are still pretty profitable 15:18:36 Triple boot? 15:18:36 somehow 15:18:38 Wow 15:18:44 ais523: Yeah, I don't get it :P 15:18:47 I double boot XP and Ubuntu 15:18:50 All my computers single-boot sidux :P 15:18:53 I have yet to figure out why there are two CentOS boots on there 15:19:03 I never use XP, though 15:19:17 maedhros777: SO LONG AS IT IS INSTALLED IT WILL BE YOUR SHAME 15:19:22 True 15:19:36 I'll be getting a new laptop soon, though 15:19:45 I'll try to get a Windows refund 15:19:51 And it'll double-boot Windows 7 and Ubuntu. 15:19:52 I have win7 installed, partly for the purpose of obeying the letter of various contracts 15:19:52 :P 15:19:53 And i'll probably fail 15:20:06 Down with the Windows tax! 15:20:13 We should have a tea party 15:20:19 heh, the box this computer came in basically had a sticker on saying "by opening this box you accept that you can't get a Windows refund even though the EULA inside says otherwise" 15:20:35 And that neighbour cluster runs Rocks, it seems. 15:21:36 There's an amusing joke about dual-booting in a Finnish parody site, but unfortunately it's in Finnish only. 15:21:53 fizzie: as in, doesn't work when translated? 15:22:01 Isn't MS generally required to give a refund? 15:22:05 "this sentence is difficult to translate into French" 15:22:22 `translateto fr this sentence is difficult to translate into French 15:22:32 cette phrase est difficile Å• traduire en français 15:22:49 maedhros777: no, MS's EULA says that the hardware company has to give you a refund, and doesn't refund the price of Windows to the hardware company itself 15:23:07 and it's part of their own contracts with the hardware companies that the hardware companies have to put up with this 15:23:14 Darn 15:23:15 ais523: As in, I don't have time to translate ans wouldn't probably generate very good prose anyway. The gist of it is that it's a parody of a column in a computing magazine, and the guy's recounting his experiences on installing Linux on a computer that currently "dual-boots MacOS and Netware 5 simultaneously". 15:23:31 So I could get a refund, but it would benefit MS? 15:23:34 so dodging the Microsoft tax unfortunately doesn't hurt Microsoft, just the hardware manufacturer 15:23:49 Wow 15:23:51 maedhros777: you could /maybe/ get a refund; the majority of companies eventually pay persistent people to go away 15:24:07 because it costs them less money than actually trying to handle the whole legally dubious issue 15:24:09 Yeah, but a Windows OS is like $200 15:24:13 no, it isn't 15:24:18 What is it, then? 15:24:21 that's how much it costs to buy in the shop 15:24:25 the price preinstalled is much lower 15:24:33 Like what? 15:24:47 what window manager do you prefer? 15:24:57 songhead95: X11 is for the weak. 15:25:14 After the distro wars: window management wars! 15:25:20 Wow 15:25:23 :) 15:25:24 maedhros777: just looking around online, it seems that the OEM price - that's the price that you could get buying in bulk as a small computer manufacturer - tends to be about half the price of buying in the shops 15:25:26 Awesome for me, even with the Lua bad-smell. 15:25:39 ais523: That's still $100 *shrugs* 15:25:41 an esoteric wm would be awsome 15:25:43 Yeah 15:25:55 Does Apple give refunds? 15:25:58 the values for large manufacturers buying in bulk tend to be lower still 15:26:01 maedhros777: Haw 15:26:13 maedhros777: Apple barely acknowledges that Mac OS X isn't burnt into ROM. 15:26:20 :) 15:26:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund is a list of the actual amounts that people were refunded when they actually tried and succeeded 15:29:25 I guess MS just gets tired of arguing 15:29:51 I hope apple will follow that example 15:30:17 well, in pretty much all minor lawsuits, there comes a point where it's cheaper just to give in and pay a trivial amount of money for the other side to go away 15:30:23 Yeah 15:30:24 which is normally just before the lawyers get involved 15:30:50 They should really be less monopolistic 15:30:58 If only 15:31:00 as for window managers, I'm using Compiz at the moment 15:31:08 Same 15:31:26 although I use xmonad from time to time, I haven't yet figured out how to get it to work with sound and networking, both of which are a little important 15:31:28 But i use Metacity for Blender, it doesn't work with Compiz 15:31:30 most people would say it's just good fair in the business world 15:32:02 (for some reason, the way Ubuntu sets up startup things, which WM you use somehow affects networking and audio, probably because it's different between KDE and Gnome so xmonad gets nothing) 15:33:47 Is it just me, or in the Prelude interpreter, does sp remain 0 for most of the program, when it's used? 15:34:03 Ever since line 83 15:35:16 Oh wait, never mind 15:35:23 It changes at 180 15:35:35 the instruction pointer rarely changes value in an interp 15:35:50 I was under the impression that large corporations have teams of lawyers on retainer-sort of deals all the time anyway, and can use them to bully little people if they're not doing anything more important at the moment. 15:35:53 normally, it increments once each time round the main loop, and sometimes jumps up or down if you find a loop 15:36:11 fizzie: but their travel costs to small claims court would be too expensive 15:36:14 Yeah, I'm getting sick of these corporations 15:36:28 How about we start a tea party? :) 15:37:50 Destroy all the Windows boxes 15:37:56 And throw them in the Boston harbor 15:38:20 Then declare ourselves an independent country 15:38:36 One microsoft lawyer estimated (in a bar over beers, unofficially, to a visiting lecturer) that they spent around a megadollar on lawyer expenses for the EU part of the Oracle-Sun deal, even though it didn't directly concern them. 15:38:37 hmm, the problem would be with trying to get rid of a particular magnetic pattern on the hard drive, and throwing that into the harbor 15:38:39 nothing wrong with the computer 15:38:55 True 15:39:07 Then we can just destroy the software. 15:39:14 and Windows is beginning to reach the stage of not being that bad 15:39:16 Infiltrate it with viruses. 15:39:26 Not that bad? Are you serious? 15:39:48 maedhros777: it's been stealing a whole load of good ideas from other OSes, and maybe even having a few of its own 15:39:54 it's certainly /usable/, just frustrating 15:40:06 Yeah, i'll admit it's usable 15:40:13 But definitely frustrating 15:40:18 It's also stole good ideas from Windows 1 and advertized them to no end as if they're new :P 15:40:33 And I'd rather not have MS benefit. 15:40:37 Gregor-L: seriously? Windows 1 hardly had any features at all 15:40:58 ais523: "Snap" is effectively the ONLY window layout of Windows 1, and now it's a feature ;) 15:41:16 The lady in the commercial just annoys me 15:41:17 ah, aha 15:41:30 "Windows 7 was my idea!" What nonsense. 15:41:31 (Also, "snap" already had a meaning in all other windowing systems, and they decided to take it for something else because they're douchebags) 15:41:38 Linux is truly the people's idea. 15:41:46 The People's idea. 15:41:55 The People's Republic of Idea. 15:42:00 COMMUNISM 15:42:04 one interesting thing to notice, btw, is that both the Microsoft and Apple commercials try to make the decision "Mac vs. PC" rather than "OS X vs. Windows" 15:42:07 windows 7: mouse gestures to give you what keyboard shortcuts could give you anyway 15:42:26 ais523: Yes, both of them want to choke out other options, just like the Democratic and Republican parties. 15:42:26 Yeah 15:42:27 which is, I suppose, a good way to confuse people into not realizing Linux exists 15:42:37 or, well, OpenSolaris or the BSDs 15:42:39 or even FreeDOS 15:42:42 Wow, you sound like you have my politics, Gregor 15:42:58 Gregor-L: the UK politics situation has become really confusing 15:43:00 My politics are "I fucking hate politics" :P 15:43:20 there was a big televised debate on Thursday, and the Liberal Democrats somehow managed to win it by all sensible measures, shocking everyone 15:43:25 I'm a self-titled anarcho-syndicalist =D 15:43:49 Similar to democratic socialism 15:44:01 they're currently within-statistical-noise of the Conservatives at the top of the polls, with Labour in third, which is also rather unexpected 15:44:10 So you guys are in the UK? 15:44:14 although, the voting system means that they don't have much of a chance 15:44:16 ais523 is. 15:44:19 maedhros777: I'm in the UK; I think Gregor-L is American 15:44:22 Ok 15:44:40 Amerk'n 15:44:50 !help 15:44:51 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 15:44:55 Gregor-L, whom do you vote for? 15:45:05 !bf_txtgen Never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down 15:45:08 If you don't like the Republicrats 15:45:11 Nader? 15:45:11 481 ++++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++>+++++++++>+++<<<<-]>>++++++.>-------.+++++++++++++++++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++.>----.>----.<<++.++++++++.-.>----.<<+++++++++++++.>>>.<-------.++.+++++++++++++.<<++++.>>>.<+++.<+.>----.>.<.<+.>>++++++++++++.------------.<<--.---------.>+.<.>----.>.<<<++.>>---.<<+++++++..>----.-----------------------------------------------------------------.<--.-------.>>+++++.<.>+++++.----------.++++++.<.<-.+++++++++++.++++++++.------- 15:45:12 sorry, this is needed to settle an argument in another channel 15:45:18 maedhros777: Given that the two parties are the only ones that have non-zero chance of winning at the national scale, I vote democrat. 15:45:27 Usually 15:45:30 At the local level it varies. 15:45:40 Yeah 15:45:55 I do hate the Republicrats, though 15:45:56 In one election I voted for a republic, a democrat, a green, a libertarian and an independent all on one ballot :P 15:46:01 Wow 15:46:01 *republican 15:46:17 You voted for a republican??!!! 15:46:18 technically speaking, isn't the US both a republic and a democracy? 15:46:21 -!- songhead95 has quit (Quit: songhead95). 15:46:22 They were each the best and most qualified for the respective roles *shrugs* 15:46:28 Wow 15:46:40 Well, I guess the Dems aren't much better 15:46:41 ais523: It's a democratic republic and/or representative republic. 15:46:45 maedhros777: from an external point of view, the democrats and republicans are so similar that it makes more sense to vote for the sanest person than for the party 15:46:55 Exactly, I agree 15:47:12 Just that if i had to vote for a Republicrat, it would be a Dem 15:47:15 Probably 15:47:23 BTW, I'm an Oregonian ... we're even weirder out there :P 15:47:28 :) 15:47:39 Strange word, Oregonian 15:47:41 It's one of the few states where Greens actually win positions occasional. 15:47:44 *occasionally 15:47:51 Gawd, these fekking wrist splints are making me mistype 15:47:58 But I'm a massachussettsian =D 15:48:05 If that's what the name is 15:48:19 Presently I'm in Indiana *bleh* 15:51:52 well, you aren't (yet) grounded by an Icelandic ash cloud 15:52:05 although, really people need to stop relying on air travel so much 15:52:19 This is strange -- when I change the interpreter to print the number of voices, it says there are 4 15:52:27 Shouldn't it be 2? 15:52:49 maedhros777: aha, maybe somehow newlines have been doubled in your input file 15:52:55 or there are trailing newlines, or something like that 15:53:02 Perhaps, let me check 15:53:25 -!- songhead95_ has joined. 15:53:27 How would I change that? 15:53:42 I'm using gedit, does it do anything strange with newlines? 15:54:30 -!- songhead95___ has joined. 15:54:31 -!- songhead95_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:55:17 Hi I'm a mac booting debian, and in the other room is a pc running freebsd 15:55:52 and in my hand is an ipod ssh-ing into the pc, because you can do that with a jailbreak 15:55:57 maedhros777: $ file helloworld.txt 15:56:08 -!- songhead95___ has quit (Client Quit). 15:56:24 prelude.txt: ASCII text 15:56:31 Oh yeah, I renamed it prelude.txt 15:57:04 strange, file normally says what sort of file terminators it has 15:59:11 When i do "cat prelude.txt", it just shows two lines 16:01:13 maedhros777: if there are carriage-returns in there, they won't be visible 16:01:16 try cat -v prelude.txt 16:01:29 Still two lines 16:01:48 any ^M written at the ends of them? 16:01:59 No 16:02:36 * Gregor-L reappears. 16:02:53 Well that's fuckular. 16:03:01 I got nothin' 16:03:45 Hang on, let me try using ftell() in the interpreter when it encounters a newline. 16:06:13 Oh wait, it works now 16:06:28 Turns out there were 2 newlines at the end of the file 16:06:54 Now to write a Fugue to Prelude compiler! 16:07:54 Schweet. Have fun with MIDI :P 16:08:11 Only problem will be that Fugue allows more than just 0..9 16:08:48 I'll have to alter the interpreter a bit, or just directly interpret Fugue using the interpreter code 16:10:07 If you listen to the Fugue Hello World (http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#Fugue) it sounds horrible =D 16:11:35 Are you a musician? 16:11:44 Yeah 16:11:58 Why? 16:12:02 Well then it seems to me like it's up to you to improve upon it :P 16:12:11 maedhros777: it was autogenerated 16:12:16 Oh, okay 16:12:20 I actually find autogenerated Fugue music kind-of beautiful 16:12:24 Wow 16:12:24 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:12:34 because the program has some sort of a purpose behind it, it's not the normal computer's autogenerated ramblings 16:12:39 it grows on you after a while 16:12:48 What would be awesome would be if an existing piece compiled in Fugue :) 16:13:01 Well, I mean that it did something 16:13:04 (meanwhile, I've been looking at ; just how /do/ you pronounce Eyjafjallajökull, anyway?) 16:13:40 they actually interviewed a bunch of icelanders, and they all gave different pronunciations 16:16:38 some day I want to compile Lost Kingdoms to Fugue 16:16:44 I wonder how long the resulting tune would be? 16:16:54 I probably need to learn the MIDI file format first, though, so I can generate it directly 16:17:17 ais523: http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/MidiComp Use this intermediary format instead. 16:17:53 ugh, web's being unreliable again 16:18:01 it's not a DNS problem or proxy problem 16:18:14 because there's no proxy (that I know of), and I'm using level3's DNS 16:18:24 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:18:29 midicomp is a MIDI-to-ASCII-to-MIDI convertor that uses an ASCII format very related to MIDI, but without fekking around with MIDI bignums and the like. 16:18:29 and it works or doesn't work randomly when I try to load the page 16:18:52 I use it whenever I have to write programs that fekk with MIDIs :P 16:19:41 hmm, I'll just use CPAN 16:27:40 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:33:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:38:52 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:39:24 -!- lament has joined. 16:45:04 Gregor-L, MIDI bignums? 16:45:05 what? 16:45:20 AnMaster: MIDI files use a bignum format. 16:45:33 Gregor-L, heh, as scaled integer or what 16:45:35 ? 16:45:59 AnMaster: One bit of each byte is used to indicate whether the next byte is part of the bignum. The rest are used as part of the number. 16:46:14 It's used for ... everything. 16:46:24 -!- lament has quit (Quit: lament). 16:47:24 Gregor-L: hmm, like UTF-9? 16:47:38 Never 'eard of UTF ... 9 ... 16:47:56 Gregor-L, sure, but consider the length of a note for example. How is that encoded? An _integer_ wouldn't work unless you could do a _scaled_ integer or a ratio between two or such 16:48:16 AnMaster: It's an integer number of ticks. 16:48:24 AnMaster: You have to choose your ticks wisely so that you can encode all notes you need. 16:48:30 hah 16:48:38 Gregor-L, and how is the tick encoded? 16:48:50 Ticks per beat, an integer. 16:48:58 right 16:49:05 And beats are in something like microseconds per beat. 16:49:16 Erm, tempo is, that is. 16:49:32 yeah I was trying to figure out how that recursive definition worked ;P 16:50:17 Sadly, most systems that write MIDIs use a fixed, and often bad, tick length. 16:50:21 Erm 16:50:25 Ticks/beat rather 16:50:29 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 16:50:38 1024 is a popular (and inexcusably flawed) choice. 16:51:00 It should be a large power of 2 times as many primes as you can reasonably get. 16:51:13 e.g. 256*3*5*7*11 16:51:22 Gregor-L, what a about rosegarden? 16:51:30 * Gregor-L checks 16:51:57 It uses 480 16:52:01 Which is a decent one. 16:52:02 Gregor-L: i thought it was 960, not 1024 16:52:27 the Perl libraries default to 96, unless you really happen to need a different division 16:52:32 i've seen 960 used by something, but i forget what 16:52:32 pineapple: 960 is the less-popular, non-flawed choice. 16:52:44 96 doesn't allow for proper 5-tuplets. 16:52:44 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:52:47 Gregor-L, 480 is less detailed than 1024? 16:53:00 AnMaster: 1024 doesn't allow for proper 3- or 5-tuplets. 16:53:17 It needs to be a power of many 2s, and as many primes as possible to allow for tuplets. 16:53:24 840? 16:53:32 Since 7-tuplets and higher are rare, multiples of 7 are generally reserved for Chopin :P 16:53:32 Gregor-L, true. So what about 8192*3*5*7*13 or such? 16:53:37 seems to be the best i can come up with 16:53:50 AnMaster: If you get too high, you're liable to make beat counts be enormous :P 16:54:00 Gregor-L, heh 16:54:06 AnMaster: i think the format is limited to 1024 16:54:16 it should be the number with the most factors less than 16384 16:54:17 Gregor-L, IMO rosegaden should check how much it needs when exporting to midi 16:54:28 pineapple, that would be stupid 16:54:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:54:43 AnMaster: It might, I just checked an example file *shrugs* 16:55:00 pineapple: The format isn't limited IIRC, although it's quite possible that many /players/ are limited. 16:55:01 although i might be wrong about the limit 16:55:34 well... 3.5.7 = 105; i'd be tempted to add another 3 in that before adding an 11 16:55:52 pineapple: WOULDJA LIKE SOME 2S 16:55:53 :P 16:56:02 Gregor-L: i'm adding the 2s on afterwards 16:56:17 I'd say 128ths are more common than 9-tuplets. 16:56:19 work out how many i have "room" for 16:56:56 20160 ? 16:57:06 3.3.5.7.64 16:59:34 I've done a reasonable bit of manual MIDI file handling for a former jobplace; it's certainly a bit crafty format. The time division field is either 15-bit "ticks per beat" thing, or some sort of SMPTE time-code based frames-per-second value (7 bits for fps, 8 for ticks/frame). 16:59:50 -!- Asztal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:02:26 Gregor-L, I demand 127-tuplets! 17:02:40 in your next piece ;P 17:02:51 I have no clue how it would sound 17:03:18 Gregor-L, btw what about midi as in the hardware protocol thingy, does it use such a tick too? 17:04:19 I don't know. 17:04:22 I only know the file format. 17:05:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net). 17:05:56 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:06:20 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 17:06:38 Sorry, I lost my internet connection 17:09:37 So does anyone know of an MIDI library or where the specification is? 17:09:50 `google midi file format 17:09:54 ok 17:09:55 The standard MIDI file format is a very strange beast. When viewed as a whole, it can be quite overwhelming. Of course, no matter how you look at it, ... \ faydoc.tripod.com/formats/mid.htm - [13]Cached - [14]Similar 17:10:18 midicomp is a MIDI-to-ASCII-to-MIDI convertor if you want to make your life easier but have another intermediary. 17:10:31 Wow, I googled it and i got that exact site :) 17:10:49 maedhros777: How unsurprising what with `google being a script that googles :P 17:11:01 Yeah, this is a strange format 17:12:15 Oh yeah -- I don't know if any of you are musicians, but are accidentals allowed in Fugue, or a key other than C major? 17:12:47 The spec makes that utterly unclear. 17:12:56 I would say, since it's interval-based, assume the first note is the root. 17:13:04 (Which is horribly broken, but ignore that :P ) 17:13:19 Treat diminshed and augmented intervals as if they were the natural interval. 17:13:23 Well, I guess that just gives you C major, A minor, and all the strange modes out there 17:13:40 I do like Phrygian though 17:14:17 maedhros777: I recall this spec being quite useful: http://www.sonicspot.com/guide/midifiles.html 17:14:31 Ok, thanks 17:15:35 So, if i take forever, I could write a 2-hour composition in E phrygian that does a text adventure game when run =D 17:15:40 That would be so awesome 17:15:46 ... yes :P 17:15:55 But not if I do it first. 17:15:58 (Which I won't) 17:15:58 I take it you're a musician? 17:16:08 http://codu.org/music/ 17:16:20 You have a website? 17:16:34 ... no, I was just linking some totally random site 17:16:59 Wow, you're a good pianist 17:17:17 Okidokie. 17:17:27 Did you write all these, or just some? 17:17:47 Everything on that page was written by me. 17:17:52 Sweet 17:17:58 What are your influences? 17:18:37 http://codu.org/hats.php Nice hats :) 17:18:46 My favorite composer is Borodín, I like all the other Romantic-era Russian composers, also Chopin ... I also like to think there's a tiny tidbit of jazz in there, though not much. 17:19:06 Yeah, I like Chopin 17:19:34 My favorites are Baroque,like Bach and Vivaldi, and some Romantic like Mendelssohn and Paganini 17:19:48 http://aforteforpiano.wordpress.com/ I was working on Chopin's third nocturne from Op. 9 until I just recently got my hands put in wrist splints as punishment for working on Chopin's third nocturne from Op. 9 ... 17:19:56 I play guitar, right now I'm trying to learn Paganini's 24 caprice 17:20:00 It's wicked hard 17:20:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6XJkRBPSQc 17:20:46 Guitar in a classical context doesn't get the respect it deserves. 17:20:50 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:20:51 Yeah 17:21:01 I play guitar and piano 17:21:06 Meanwhile, the piano gets tossed in over music that predates the instrument :P 17:21:14 Yeah 17:21:24 Bach used the harpischord 17:21:30 It sounded pretty good 17:21:47 I've got a sweet digital piano with a really nice harpsichord sound, I like to use it when I play Bach. 17:21:52 Nice 17:22:30 I know a really good pianist who can play Mendelssohn's fantasy in F# minor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODorVTR7p4w) 17:22:33 It's insane 17:23:05 His fingers move at like a billion mph 17:24:08 Y'know, I think raw velocity isn't quite the right measurement for such things :P 17:24:15 =D 17:24:40 Well, there isn't really a unit of measurement for finger speed on piano 17:25:06 Sure there is ... the scale goes from "first grader who just started Piano lessons" to "Rachmanninov" 17:25:29 :) 17:25:42 That's also a hand-size scale, btw. 17:25:48 I'm not great at piano, right now I just play a bit of Beethoven 17:26:03 And some jazz stuff 17:26:45 So on choosemyhat.com, do you actually wear those hats wherever you go? 17:26:49 Yup 17:27:04 I'm wearing a pakul even as we speak. 17:27:10 Sweet 17:27:33 I vote for the Scottish hat tomorrow 17:27:53 Only one vote though, too bad 17:28:03 Looks pretty awesome :) 17:28:19 You should get a Viking helmet. 17:29:28 I have two Scottish hats :P 17:29:34 Also, I try to keep my hats JUST south of insane. 17:29:43 Darn :) 17:29:55 The scottish hat looks pretty good, though 17:30:23 I still have two Scottish hats :P 17:30:25 So can the same IP vote for different days? 17:30:35 Yes. 17:30:38 But only one per day. 17:30:42 I'll do that 17:31:20 I voted for the pirate hat on Wednesday 17:32:55 I don't own a pirate hat, but I appreciate your vote for my extremely-patriotic American-style tricorn. 17:33:11 :) 17:34:06 It's funny how myths about pirates spring up, real pirates live in Somalia and wouldn't say "arr", they'd just shoot you with an m16 17:35:29 And if they'd get the hell out of there, the government could fix itself and I could finally buy the domain name which is my greatest dream: libc.so 17:35:56 Why do you want that? 17:36:12 ... because it's libc.so! 17:36:17 Ok 17:36:30 http://codu.org/colormatch/ Pretty interesting 17:36:38 I don't even know what I'd use it for, probably just forward it to the GNU libc page ;P 17:38:25 -!- tombom has joined. 17:38:45 Wow, you have a lot of results 17:40:19 http://codu.org/colormatch/q/index.php This is pretty accurate 17:40:32 I'm saying yes to a lot of them 17:42:36 Wow, did you write Plof by yourself? 17:44:09 It looks interesting, extremely flexible 17:46:17 Today, a tour of Gregor Richards Technologies :P 17:46:30 -!- deschutron has left (?). 17:46:36 Yep 17:46:37 Some of the standard library was written by pikhq, the interpreter, spec and most of the standard library were written by me. 17:47:18 Wait, I downloaded Plof but the INSTALL file says to run configure; I don't see it 17:47:37 Or should i be running configure.ac? 17:47:43 Heh, that INSTALL is autogenerated; you have to have autoconf and automake installed, and run ./autoreconf.sh before running configure. 17:48:09 (Conventionally, since configure scripts are generated, they're not put into source repositories) 17:48:55 Ok 17:49:39 When I run make it says "plof/plof.h:31:19: error: gc/gc.h: No such file or directory" 17:49:47 Requires libgc :P 17:49:59 (And libgc-dev or whatever your package manager wants to call it for compiling) 17:50:15 Okay, I'll apt-get it 17:50:39 Get libffi-dev while you're at it. 17:50:44 Not STRICTLY necessary, but a huge plus. 17:50:47 Okay 17:51:24 (Also, we should probably move this to #plof ) 17:51:33 Ok 17:52:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:53:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:54:29 Gregor-L, what package? 17:54:32 oh plof 17:57:32 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:00:09 I got highlighted, and the highlight is not in my buffer. 18:00:42 Wow, did you write Plof by yourself? 18:00:42 Some of the standard library was written by pikhq, the interpreter, spec and most of the standard library were written by me. 18:00:47 Oh, there it is. Away message. 18:00:54 23:29 #esoteric: < coppro> pikhq: ping? 18:01:05 That was the highlight. 18:01:09 A few days ago. 18:01:19 * pikhq just returned from weekend-ness 18:02:01 Gregor-L: BTW, just "autoreconf" works instead of ./autoreconf.sh nowadays. 18:02:22 pikhq: ./autoreconf.sh just runs autoreconf, then find . -name autom4te.cache | xargs rm -rf :P 18:02:29 Oh, I see. 18:02:30 :) 18:02:46 what is the point of autom4te.cache? 18:02:49 I always wondered 18:03:01 I mean, it seems just as slow with as without that cache 18:03:02 * Sgeo goes off to take a cold shower 18:03:18 If you run autom4te (as part of autoconf) again, it doesn't need to expand macros it has cached. 18:03:36 heh, I never noticed any speed diff 18:03:43 It's quite stupid, because we live in 2010, not 1975 :P 18:03:49 Gregor-L, and _why_ does plof (presumably) use autoconf? 18:03:59 after all we live in 2010, not 1975 :P 18:04:11 Because all the alternative systems suck donkey balls, and autoconf merely sucks dog balls? 18:04:31 Gregor-L, yeah but it is one of those huge wild dogs :P 18:05:05 Gregor-L, anyway there are non-sucky build systems. 18:05:20 When you spend two years doing software build automation, you learn to love autoconf and hate {plain makefiles,scons,that one the name of which I can't remember} 18:05:28 however all those I know of are targeting a single specific language 18:05:32 like erlang or whatever 18:05:48 Gregor-L, BSD make? 18:06:08 Gregor-L, also there is a technical term for that. It is: brainwashing 18:06:19 CMake? 18:06:22 CMake! 18:06:25 That's the one I hate the most! 18:06:28 God CMake sucks. 18:06:39 Most build systems are *terrible* for automation. 18:06:41 Couldn't even remember that crappile's name. 18:06:45 Gregor-L, why? I mean, it used to be worse. But even back then it was better than autoconf 18:06:48 Autoconf at least gets it right. 18:06:49 And yes, CMake SUCKS for automation. 18:07:17 custom build system? 18:07:22 Gregor-L: Less so than it used to. 18:07:22 lawl 18:07:29 AnMaster: Those, I BURN WITH FIRE. 18:07:30 Gregor-L, the kernel has a _very_ nice build system IMO 18:07:38 pikhq, so you prefer the kernel to use autoconf? 18:07:43 imagine the _huge_ command line 18:07:48 * pikhq too has spend quite a bit of time doing build automation 18:07:59 AnMaster: That no longer counts as custom, and its system only makes sense when you have an untenably huge number of configuration options. 18:08:02 AnMaster: No, that is one of the *very* few custom build systems that's not evil. 18:08:05 to ./configure --arch=amd64 --enable-sata --disable-whatever --with-foo=module 18:08:07 and so on 18:08:28 It's great when you have a massive number of configuration options. 18:08:34 Most software packages are nowhere near as build-configurable as {the kernel,busybox}. 18:08:35 Gregor-L, iirc uclibc uses kernel configure 18:08:39 so does busybox iirc 18:08:53 yeah 18:08:57 uclibc and busybox are both complex enough to need it. 18:09:00 true 18:09:09 There's also ALFS. 18:09:14 I wonder why glibc doesn't use it 18:09:17 pikhq, ALFS? 18:09:27 Automated Linux From Scratch. 18:09:31 Automated Linux From Scratch. It is exactly as WTF as it sounds. 18:09:33 pikhq, oh it uses that? 18:09:37 Yeah. 18:09:40 and ALFS sounds like cheating ;P 18:09:50 Only slightly. 18:09:52 * AnMaster did LFS and HLFS the hard way 18:10:09 and HLFS I did successfully for a (back then at least) unsupported arch 18:10:29 * pikhq can generally bootstrap a build chain from memory by now 18:10:39 but ALFS sounds interesting, I would very much like to learn how the kernel build system works on the inside 18:10:55 but perhaps it will start to look horrible around then 18:10:58 I start having issues when members of the build chain don't build without patches. 18:11:09 Stupid patches :P 18:11:12 hm? 18:11:17 (uClibc; GCC just plain *hates* uClibc without patches) 18:11:27 pikhq, do llvm + clang? 18:11:33 X_X 18:11:38 or isn't that mature enough to manage libc, kernel and so on yet? 18:11:47 Insufficiently mature. 18:11:51 clang solves ALL PROBLEMS and also allows us to lock GNU out of OS X. 18:11:53 right 18:12:07 Gregor-L, you started hating clang now? 18:12:08 Well. The *C* frontend is, but the C++ frontend in the stable release isn't. 18:12:13 I thought you loved it recently 18:12:16 AnMaster: No, I don't hate clang, I hate Apple. 18:12:19 I never loved clang. 18:12:21 ah 18:12:23 hm 18:12:23 I'm ambivalent toward clang. 18:12:28 perhaps it was pikhq who did 18:12:36 I do quite like Clang. 18:12:45 It gives useful errors. Is nice. 18:12:50 There's an Apple IIe emulator for Android 18:13:03 pikhq, who cares about C++? I don't think you need C++ for the base system 18:13:04 Why do I have a feeling one will never exist for iProduct? 18:13:07 Sgeo: On a scale from one to ten, I find that entirely unsurprising. 18:13:21 Sgeo: Because it's against the SDK license agreement? 18:13:28 pikhq, well of course you do for clang itself 18:13:37 but yeah apart from that (and that includes llvm) 18:13:37 AnMaster: Surprisingly? Many things do require C++. 18:13:52 Gregor-L, how is RoboZZle not against it? 18:14:01 pikhq, getting a bootable POSIX shell with the standard POSIX commands does not 18:14:23 Sgeo: It probably "is", but the license agreement is more about Apple asserting themselves as douchebags than actually accomplishing anything. 18:14:29 Depends on what you mean by "standard". Sure, coreutils and fileutils you can get without a C++ compiler.. 18:15:22 pikhq, well, all that is required from POSIX. I very much doubt you can't get that without C++. Unless it explicitly declares there should be a /usr/bin/c++ (and I have forgotten that) 18:15:40 and by that I mean POSIX.1-2008 with no optional features 18:16:02 the only thing that is an issue is the C compiler 18:16:04 as I said above 18:16:22 and in theory you could just use an older gcc version before it needed c++ stuff or pcc 18:16:30 (or tcc) 18:17:52 ooh this looks nifty: http://codu.org/projects/stuff/hg/index.cgi/file/32bf7f3d092d/lddcapture 18:18:49 You can actually build GCC without a C++ compiler, and not build in C++ support. 18:19:04 Gregor-L, does it copy just the files listed in ldd or does it try to copy the original one in case it happens to be a symlink? and then run ldconfig to recreate the symlink 18:19:24 pikhq, yes but gcc nowdays depend on some C++ libs iirc 18:19:33 I don't think they are optional any more 18:19:58 AnMaster: It copies and does not recreate symlinks. 18:20:00 http://gcc.gnu.org/install/prerequisites.html 18:20:11 or hm maybe not 18:20:16 AnMaster: The created files are not expected to be canonical names, they are expected to be the names expected by the linker. 18:20:29 Gregor-L, ah okay 18:20:58 Gregor-L, this explains why it was too good to be true. Was hoping it was the perfect tool for populating chroots with the required libs 18:21:43 Well, it could certainly do that, so long as you don't care about the filename being correct ... that being said, if the libs depend on other files, you're still screwed. 18:22:03 (e.g. files in /usr/share) 18:22:03 Gregor-L, oh. Very much to good to be true then 18:22:06 ah 18:22:23 Gregor-L, so it *does* do foo -> libbar -> libquux correctly then? 18:22:32 Yes, in the sense that ldd does that for it. 18:22:49 AnMaster: No, those libraries just have optional C++ bindings. 18:23:08 Must disappear now, ta. 18:23:10 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:23:11 Gregor-L, idea for future version: decompile the code in case of dlopen() to figure out (if possible) the arguments it is called with ;) 18:23:22 gah, he missed that lame joke 18:23:29 pikhq, hm 18:24:06 * Sgeo feels unsanitary :( 18:32:57 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 18:35:37 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:35:38 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 19:01:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:01:24 Is there a thing like fork() which keeps the two threads using and modifying the same memory? 19:01:31 In C, I should add. 19:03:08 Look into pthreads. 19:03:24 Also: abandon all hope, ye who enter here. 19:14:24 Thanke ye. 19:20:58 O dear god the manual pages don't cross-reference properly. 19:21:03 HELP. 19:24:05 heh 19:24:18 Phantom_Hoover, it doesn't? 19:24:30 what bit of it specifically? 19:24:55 things under "see also" in man pthreads seems to work 19:24:57 tried only a few 19:25:39 and there is always man pthread 19:27:38 I can't have much more than twenty things in man, 19:28:21 I've checked Synaptic, and it doesn't look like there's a doc package I'm missing, or at least not an obvious one. 19:32:28 eh? 19:32:38 Phantom_Hoover, what specific man page are you missing? 19:32:51 Phantom_Hoover, try apt-file on it 19:33:05 (install and update apt-file's db first of course) 19:34:44 Most of the ones beginning with "pthreads", it seems. 19:35:40 Phantom_Hoover, I can't help you without a *specific* example 19:35:48 so I can search for what package provides it 19:36:03 now since you seem completely uninterested I'll leave it to yourself 19:36:06 have fun with apt-file 19:36:48 (it might be 3p, worth considering) 19:44:35 manpages-posix-dev 19:47:30 Gregor, he could have tried to help himself. He refused the help first, then the help to help. 19:48:06 pthread_create 19:48:15 Phantom_Hoover, well Gregor already helped you 19:48:26 Oops, missed that. Thanks. 19:48:33 Phantom_Hoover, I'm not feeling in the mood for helping someone who needs to look up in a dict what "specific" means 19:49:08 (that is the only theory consistent with your behaviour...) 19:51:50 Feeling a modicum more dickish than usual, eh 19:52:53 Gregor, I'm rather annoyed in general if that is what you mean 19:53:15 Ah x-p 19:53:24 Gregor, I also always have a problem with people who can't keep up in a convo. 19:53:29 well 19:53:35 it is fine up to a point 19:53:52 (that point varies depending on lots of things) 19:58:03 Bye 19:58:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100401213457]). 20:01:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 20:10:14 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:14:09 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 20:17:44 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:21:20 -!- charlls has joined. 22:23:02 -!- clog has joined. 22:23:02 -!- clog has joined. 22:23:09 -!- jcp has joined. 22:24:03 fizzie, well? How do they work? 22:33:19 No clue; they haven't told us. 22:33:57 I think the Storage System (tm) is a commercial thing; the name was mentioned. 22:37:45 There was a SAN system called EMC CLARiiON AX150, but I'm not sure if that's the new or the old one. 22:41:33 "The laboratory has two large disk systems. The primary disk system is an HP EVA 5000, and the secondary is the newer EMC AX150." 22:41:45 I'm just not sure the "newer" here equals "newest", too. 22:42:10 At least the server names have changed. 22:48:30 -!- Norvig_Bonanza has joined. 22:48:40 -!- Norvig_Bonanza has left (?). 22:49:36 -!- augur has joined. 22:50:59 Last SysAdmGroup meeting minutes document says they've actually been thinking about 5 GB/10 GB (soft/hard) quotas for ~; nothing for project and work disks, of course. 22:51:26 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:10:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:10:23 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:15:41 -!- charlesq__ has joined. 23:16:05 AnMaster: Oh, and you asked about the SSD speed; this is the lamest benchmark of them all (hdparm -t --direct), but http://pastebin.com/TwSHuU5f -- sda's the SSD, sdb and sdc are identical "energy-save, low-noise" marketed 5400 RPM 1TB rotating disks. 23:18:01 -!- charlls has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:18:42 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 23:18:59 "Windows 7 was my idea!" What nonsense. 23:19:10 they show the French ad (!) here in the U.S. ad nauseum ... why???? 23:19:26 Rugxulo: Fuck if I know. 23:19:41 It's not even like we have a notable French-speaking population outside of Louisiana... 23:20:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Hey! Listen!). 23:20:10 it's got (very small) subtitles, but they also (less often) show the English (U.K.) ad too 23:20:23 at least that one is comprehensible 23:20:37 still, talk about a waste of money ... "Buy Windows! Oh wait, 99% of you already have it!" 23:21:14 I still laugh at the truth in ye olde "advertising, advertising, advertising ... fix Vista ... advertising, advertising, advertising ..." joke ad 23:22:50 It's one of the few states where Greens actually win positions occasional. 23:23:10 WHY does Apple want to restrict apps, exactly? 23:23:11 well Jesse Ventura made big headlines as (Independent) governor of Minnesota back in the day 23:23:13 What does it get them? 23:23:20 dunno ... money, I guess 23:23:24 I agree, it's silly 23:23:36 "no cross-compiled stuff" ... eh? as if it matters! 23:24:26 well, you aren't (yet) grounded by an Icelandic ash cloud 23:24:42 -!- charlls has joined. 23:24:44 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Eyjafjallajökull.ogg 23:25:55 [ejafjatlajokutl] 23:25:59 or something close to that 23:26:26 -!- cheater2 has joined. 23:26:34 gesundheit 23:26:41 ;-) 23:27:40 -!- charlesq__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:28:31 -!- charlesq__ has joined. 23:29:58 -!- charlls has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:30:08 * oerjan imagines "As Katla erupts, the whole of Europe shivers, while American newscasters breathe a sound of relief." 23:31:25 s/sound/sigh/ 23:34:35 God CMake sucks. 23:34:50 but it's more and more common these days 23:39:32 and in theory you could just use an older gcc version before it needed c++ stuff or pcc 23:39:53 G++ only works with GCC (while I think you can, or used to, be able to build GCC itself with other CCs) 23:39:57 Rugxulo: Still a royal pain for build automation. 23:40:21 And yes, G++ only works with GCC, but that's quite irrelevant. 23:40:34 You just perform a bootstrap build, so that everything but GCC is built with GCC. 23:43:29 what compilers work at compiling GCC? I presume ICC would work (or probably did in the past), doubt many others do (Sun C ???) 23:44:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:44:25 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:44:38 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 23:44:55 Rugxulo: GCC proper actually goes to great pains to be buildable by other compilers. 23:45:06 For the longest time it was written to allow a K&R compiler to build it. 23:45:09 GCC is a great pain to build, IMHO ;-) 23:45:15 It is. 23:45:30 It only uses autoconf, not automake. Ugh. 23:46:15 however, I imagine that using GCC 2.7.2 to build 2.95 would then allow newer versions to compile properly, if in a pinch (since those are easier, esp. 2.7.2) 23:54:46 -!- charlls has joined. 23:57:11 -!- charlesq__ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).