< 1272153603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, mine also shows the line for who set the topic < 1272153612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, iirc he used to use netcat or such before he wrote it < 1272153612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ok < 1272153613 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it online somewhere? < 1272153618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1272153619 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well yeah here too < 1272153625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe telnet < 1272153627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't remember < 1272153636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the exception remains his OS. < 1272153640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And possibly his editor. < 1272153644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ? < 1272153648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38. < 1272153656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, exception to what? < 1272153663 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Software he wrote. < 1272153663 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272153670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272153673 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1272153676 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, unignore alise. < 1272153684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate having to explain what he says. < 1272153703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, "the NIH is string in the zzo38" < 1272153714 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh that didn't work out well as a star wars parody < 1272153733 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/PHIRC/phirc.zip (Note I didn't copy the newest version yet, it will be soon) < 1272153739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, oh forget he was in here < 1272153741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Just stop doing it; then he'll get all annoyed. < 1272153743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot* < 1272153745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah right. You did not. < 1272153754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You were blabbing about ignoring me just before; this is just more of that childishness. < 1272153758 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1272153761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, in php!? < 1272153767 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: /unignore < 1272153775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gasp! PHP can access stdio/stdout! < 1272153777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the network! < 1272153778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, thanks but no < 1272153781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is this possible! < 1272153785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or else next time you go "LAWL IM IGNORING ALISE" I ignore you. < 1272153791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!sh echo then stop asking pikhq to explain for you ~ < 1272153793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because frankly it's just getting ridiculous. < 1272153795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1272153795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I didn't say that < 1272153796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1272153797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forgot egobot is gone < 1272153798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1272153802 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it is written in PHP, mostly because I know how to socket access in it even cross-platform < 1272153810 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have been fairly often. < 1272153831 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Add-ons can also be written in PHP, or in CRISC. < 1272153832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I just replied to your mention of having to repeat what he said that I forgot he was in here, thus I forgot to filter out the "half discussions" < 1272153838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was all... < 1272153840 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: this client? gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/0fossproj/irc_client/help < 1272153858 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, same client. That is an alternate URL < 1272153875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, how comes you checked gopher://? < 1272153882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, who would think doing that < 1272153885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about* < 1272153898 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow I find it easier to browse his site with gopher :p < 1272153906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, sure okay < 1272153912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that much is true :P < 1272153914 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His website is gopher-proxied, I'm pretty sure. < 1272153927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1272153928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1272153929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes I think so too < 1272153930 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have been wondering if we need a stricter ignore policy. (1) no trying to get around ignores (2) no taunting people you are ignoring < 1272153931 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's right on the user page: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/User:Zzo38 < 1272153946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: we have basically no policies though! < 1272153947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't ruin that! :P < 1272153963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...anyway AnMaster is the only one who does the latter and i've only done the former to actually tell AnMaster helpful things < 1272153966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gave up on that; realised he's not worth it) < 1272153986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, actually the http and gopher versions don't match < 1272153989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah, i wouldn't do it unless people start getting seriously annoyed - i guess pikhq is the one who comes closest < 1272153991 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually my HTTP and gopher are two separate sites although they share many files in common. Eventually it is planned to share additional files in common, although some things will be exclusive to one or the other because they are only useful on one < 1272153993 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas. < 1272153995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ vs. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/ < 1272154024 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm only annoyed because I tend to talk to both AnMaster and alise a lot. < 1272154054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well who doesn't, they _are_ the most talkative people on the channel, or close to it < 1272154057 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, the weather reports and movie times will stay on gopher only. In addition, the dynamic images service will stay HTTP only. (There are others too) < 1272154060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well that isn't really my problem. Nor alise's problem. Nor your. < 1272154065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(when they're here) < 1272154073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Interesting how that's the smartest and dumbest people! < 1272154075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-P < 1272154076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kid, I kid. < 1272154091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, AnMaster /is/ the dumbest but you're probably the smartest. < 1272154095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I think fizzie did some graphs showing we were the most talkative persons < 1272154097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, you run away whenever I sling you into doing something. < 1272154101 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: True. < 1272154104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think ehird beat me with a bit < 1272154129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I will not be that high now being absent 4.5/7 of the week. < 1272154148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, dynamic images? < 1272154158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is suspiciously close to the golden ratio minus one!!!!!!!! < 1272154176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!1112123 < 1272154185 0 :benuphoenix!~benuphoen@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272154234 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1272154249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is a.l.i dead? < 1272154267 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that quite a few people still read it < 1272154268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah i recall those, but not the results < 1272154269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nobody's posted in ages < 1272154270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there doesn't even seem to be spam on it nowdays < 1272154273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still read it < 1272154286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is easy, since no one posts on it ;P < 1272154287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I have email notifications < 1272154288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that count? < 1272154292 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dynamic images are such as: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dynamic_images/cellular_automata.php http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dynamic_images/clock.php < 1272154300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I use a usenet client to check it < 1272154302 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also use it for dynamic avatars on some forums < 1272154371 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have SMTP but I only run the SMTP program when I am expecting a message (to confirm registration and so on), I won't receive any unwanted messages this way < 1272154376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ugh I hate this cold (not temperature, the other type) < 1272154384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : wtf, Haskell's Rational type doesn't have / < 1272154388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um sure it does < 1272154392 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Hey! Listen! < 1272154407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION throws the previous paper handkerchief in the bin
< 1272154540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instance Integral a => Fractional (Ratio a) < 1272154578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right right < 1272154580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was merely confused < 1272154590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1272154642 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1272154687 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: In case you missed it, as a side effect of this compiler here's yet another (unreadable) fungot graph: http://zem.fi/~fis/test.png < 1272154687 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what's oou? vs eq?. < 1272154991 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1272155135 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One day I will write operating system stuff, too, when I get another computer < 1272155447 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question: How do you format Icoruma codes as a printable format including page-numbers, cross-references replaced by the chapter/table/page number, index, so that it can be printed to make a book? < 1272155549 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answer: use latex < 1272155582 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1272155635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION realizes that zzo38 is strictly following the "Don't ask to ask" principle
< 1272155642 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though what is Icoruma? < 1272155676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it freaks me out, despite being recommended < 1272155678 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Icoruma is a markup language specifically for typing the rules for role-playing-games. < 1272155690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Most people don't follow it, sadly. < 1272155695 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it documented anywhere? < 1272155730 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Icoruma's syntax) < 1272155734 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Not very well. But just wait a minute I will copy the files and documentation I have so far. I can post examples too, if you want. < 1272155757 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well it _does_ frequently leave me with a "how can he possibly assume anyone knows this" feeling, then i remember this is #esoteric. < 1272155764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ask to ask... but that's only so that I know to not take seriously the advice of people who didn't confirm that they know about what I'm talking about < 1272155765 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. see you after lunch. < 1272155771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(often they give a general, simpler answer to a more specific question) < 1272155773 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will only take a minute < 1272155775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: bye < 1272155798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Question: How do you format Icoruma codes as a printable format including page-numbers, cross-references replaced by the chapter/table/page number, index, so that it can be printed to make a book? < 1272155805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you want it to be nicely typesetted? < 1272155809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do you want to print a book in monospace? < 1272155812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Asking to ask is only really useful if you're really asking if anyone has relevant knowledge, yeah. < 1272155821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: By the way, TeX it up. < 1272155837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just TeX; not LaTeX. < 1272155838 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typesetted, of course. Now I did find some instructions for LaTeX so hopefully I can figure it out < 1272155840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 would like TeX. < 1272155843 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just TeX < 1272155845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He wouldn't like LaTeX. < 1272155859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't care if you use some crazy shit to generate the TeX, it's just that, well. TeX does typesetting right. < 1272155860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX is not very documented at all, has not many commands, and is quite low level. LaTeX is a huge mass of macros and structure. < 1272155868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And TeX gives you much more control over formatting. < 1272155873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I think zzo38 will probably like TeX more. < 1272155881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX is actually fairly well-documented. The source code is also a book. < 1272155888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that internal workings? < 1272155893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: TeX automatically numbers pages by default, so you won't need to worry about that. < 1272155900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Table of contents -- does LaTeX do this or TeX? I have no idea. < 1272155901 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, and? < 1272155914 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: OK I found TeX now < 1272155931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: LaTeX will format a table of contents wonderfully for you, if you don't mind having not-so-much control over formatting. < 1272155932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure that's TeX. < 1272155939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can change font, and indenting, and stuff, and even make your own title page. < 1272155943 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272155943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some things are a bit iffy to control. < 1272155950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: TeX doesn't even do title-making for you... < 1272155961 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Do you mean the TeX primitives, or Pure TeX, which is the default macro package? < 1272155976 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can look at both TeX and LaTeX and I can see what codes are available < 1272155978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pure TeX, I guess... I've only used TeX primitives, I think. < 1272155989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Oh, you can use TeX in LaTeX of course. < 1272155994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only some 300 primitives. < 1272156003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX is just a [huge, advanced] set of macros [turing complete] for TeX. < 1272156007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: LaTeX is just a macro package for TeX. < 1272156010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: http://miktex.org/ is TeX for Windows. < 1272156017 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK, it is a macro package for TeX. < 1272156019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very large, as alise said, but just some macros. < 1272156027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can output as PDF among other things, which would be ideal for printing as a book. < 1272156035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could even get it self-published, say on lulu.com. < 1272156060 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will look at http://miktex.org/ hopefully it can still be cross-platform however I don't want it to be restricted to Windows or to any other operating system < 1272156066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: TeX is totally cross-platform. < 1272156078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MiKTeX is just TeX/LaTeX/pdfTeX compiled for Windows, < 1272156080 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Thanks, that is what I thought anyways < 1272156090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus tons and tons of macro packages (you need them; core TeX is very small). < 1272156095 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's written by freaking Knuth. < 1272156099 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272156105 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth is a bit of a stickler for writing things right. :) < 1272156114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: You'd like TeX's actual source code. It's literate programming -- of course, Knuth invented that -- < 1272156124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's written in TeX itself, with snippets of 70s Pascal in between. < 1272156140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, TeX the program is actually in literate C. < 1272156142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :His WEB system is used to extract and rearrange the Pascal from this document/code, and then that Pascal is translated into C for compilation for modern systems. < 1272156145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now) < 1272156149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh... that's sad. < 1272156151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, still. < 1272156156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWEB. < 1272156166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to be compiled to C from 70s Pascal, though! < 1272156177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; it got ported. < 1272156184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S NOT FAIR < 1272156192 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I currently have Icoruma->HTML so now if I can write Icoruma->TeX as well, it can work < 1272156201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still literate code. < 1272156215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the idea of literate C amuses me. < 1272156218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/systems/knuth/dist/tex/tex.web ;; the Pascal TeX < 1272156225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just seems so... Anathema to most of C. < 1272156231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like zzo38's code, actually. < 1272156239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: GHC includes Literate Perl... < 1272156255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Which seems less odd... *Somehow*. < 1272156261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Your Icoruma is actually very similar to TeX! < 1272156272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It has an embedded turing-complete language for defining macros -- just like TeX. < 1272156275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, isn't Literate Perl implemented via Perl... "macros"? < 1272156285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It evaluates these macros then typesets the document to an output format -- just like TeX. < 1272156295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of it is built up from simple primitives -- just like TeX. < 1272156298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, it's preprocessed. < 1272156303 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am not entirely sure but i think the cross-reference handling bits of LaTeX are not TeX, so if you want those you'll have to use LaTeX. < 1272156307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaaw. < 1272156311 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-158-80-225.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272156316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you mean bibtex? < 1272156319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he won't want that; it's just for papers. < 1272156321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly < 1272156325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really books unless you're Hofstadter :-) < 1272156334 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, Bibtex isn't LaTeX. < 1272156334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, just intra-book references < 1272156335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :==Define AddLinkedContents < 1272156336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=.=Copy Leader =Argument < 1272156336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=.=Set Separator "> < 1272156336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=.=Calc @Name @Separator Concatenate @Leader @Heading Concatenate Concatenate !=Value < 1272156336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=.=Command =Quote Very large, as alise said, but just some macros. <-- larger than that even < 1272158736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do Pascal programs have program declarations? < 1272158740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the name actually matter? < 1272158743 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Still no checks. < 1272158774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literally none at all. < 1272158782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine. < 1272158794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : It's a bunch of crazy TeX processing. <-- most of latex and other high level stuff such as bibtex is < 1272158808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since we are assuming 32-bit integers" Tut tut tut. < 1272158815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sunburn.stanford.edu/~knuth/boss.html I doubt that 0x$466.60 comes from 0x$1.00 sums. :) < 1272158815 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1272158816 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-46-250.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1272158871 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well it declares the files the program uses, iirc, originally < 1272158903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thorsten Dahlheimer is pretty well off. < 1272158923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ~$1126. < 1272158996 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1272159006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note that he has not withdrawn that. < 1272159018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And thus, that's about $1126 of non-existent money. < 1272159036 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are they using hexadecimal dollars anyway? < 1272159042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Because it's Knuth errors, dude! < 1272159049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get one hexadecimal dollar for finding an error in his book. < 1272159056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1272159062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This gets deposited for you into the Bank of San Serriffe. < 1272159068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you didn't know that? o_O < 1272159079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting a cheque from Knuth is one of CS' greatest medals. < 1272159080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I knew he gave money, and I knew it was no longer in the form of checks < 1272159086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know what form it took nowadays < 1272159093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He stopped because people tried to fuck with his accounts. < 1272159099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Bank of San Serrife, of course, has branches on the planet Pincus. < 1272159108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"To request early withdrawals, please contact D. E. Knuth at Stanford University." -- doing so would be a bit rude of course < 1272159118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I thought nobody actually tried, but he did it as a precuation < 1272159122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Knuth may perform such withdrawals for you) < 1272159133 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, he went through 3 bank accounts. < 1272159134 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was possible to fuck with someone's accounts if they wrote you a check, or something < 1272159136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, < 1272159140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :('twould be a cheque in the UK) < 1272159158 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The electronic banking system is all sorts of fucked up. < 1272159168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 saying fuck? rare occasion < 1272159180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So are cheques not really safe? I don't really know about this stuff, but I like cheques. < 1272159185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was semi-quoting < 1272159195 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer to use cash, mostly < 1272159195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm much more likely to use swearwords for htat reason than any other < 1272159197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Soon people will learn that it is equally dangerous to reveal the numbers that are printed in plain sight on every check. Forget signatures; banks have no time to verify them. The once venerable system of checking accounts is irretrievably broken. Before long, companies will find it impossible to give out paychecks without exposing themselves to unacceptable risk. " < 1272159201 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The world should consider itself glad that someone with a lot of computer knowledge does not have a grudge against human civilization. < 1272159208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Instead of writing personal checks, I'll write personal certificates of deposit to each awardee's account at the Bank of San Serriffe, which is an offshore institution that has branches in Blefuscu and Elbonia on the planet Pincus. ]] < 1272159212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you still get a tangible reward < 1272159231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i vaguely recall something about the problem being people putting up _photos_ of their (uncashed) checks on the web, which _others_ could use to fuck with knuth's accounts < 1272159231 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272159233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what is the simplest, portable way of transferring money? < 1272159241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah < 1272159248 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Cash. < 1272159259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What, in an envelope? < 1272159268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even hidden in a birthday card it's still going to get stolen. < 1272159276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And transferring larger sums of money as cash is a bit hefty. < 1272159286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, converting currency sucks. < 1272159288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, that. Yeah, go for debit card, or direct money transfer. < 1272159292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272159306 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither of which is all that secure. < 1272159324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is absolutely idiotic to have 64-bit pointers when I compile a program that uses less than 4 gigabytes of RAM. When such pointer values appear inside a struct, they not only waste half the memory, they effectively throw away half of the cache." < 1272159325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth gonna flame < 1272159328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just face it: the only reason that money continues to exist is that one of us does not want to destroy everything. < 1272159338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*none of us < 1272159342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wants to destroy < 1272159347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-does not < 1272159348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. That. < 1272159366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ripple, anyone? < 1272159369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ripple.sourceforge.net/ < 1272159384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION gets the Blefuscu and Elbonia references, but what is Pincus?
< 1272159387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, WTF Knuth. Surely you know the benefits of having mmap'd file IO. :P < 1272159410 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps this could be one way: Both people phone each-other to synchronize their accounts for the specific amount of money, and then the sender gets a magnetic ink pad and uses something like a date-stamp to stamp the information onto the cheque. < 1272159413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap? That's not portable. < 1272159417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes his 64-bit pointers
< 1272159484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is going to spec out uber-Pascal; a version of Pascal designed to be as uber as it can possibly be.
< 1272159487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No pointers, of course... < 1272159534 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pascal pointers are safer than C ones, anyhow, iirc no pointer arithmetic < 1272159538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Read is introduced such that read(f, x) is the same as x:=f^; get(f);. Write is introduced such that write(f, x) is the same as f^ := x; put(f);" < 1272159542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that is useless! < 1272159544 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is in love with this Wesnoth song
< 1272159551 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elvish theme < 1272159552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sunburn.stanford.edu/~knuth/iaq.html < 1272159579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The Bank of San Serrife, of course, has branches on the planet Pincus. <-- pincus? < 1272159585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :google turns up nothing useful < 1272159593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as to where the name would come from < 1272159594 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Is humor. < 1272159597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Laugh now. < 1272159607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: darn i was just about to google it < 1272159611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes I understand that, but I don't see what the humor is in it. < 1272159633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I googled san seriffe and found the origin of that (heh), but no luck with pincus < 1272159636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the other strange names there _do_ have references, though < 1272159647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, is it supposed to be "pink"? < 1272159653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahahaha < 1272159664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, AnMaster... < 1272159680 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks for a song with lyrics "Maybe a mathematician"
< 1272159694 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clip from such a song came with Freespire < 1272159695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um "pink" is not a humorous reference. or maybe it is. < 1272159707 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pointers are very useful in C (even three-star pointers), but less so in higher-level program languages. In other programming languages you can do stuff like pointers in some ways in case you need it, I guess. For example, in PHP you can do the following: $ptr=array(&$x); < 1272159785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I prefer five star ones. From the Michelin guide to pointers < 1272159806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pointer is just a single-length array! < 1272159816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that you can pass it by reference, of course! < 1272159845 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you can use any number of stars depending on what you are doing. Mostly one-star pointers are useful, but sometimes it is useful with three-star pointers or five-star pointers. (See c2 wiki) < 1272159860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, .... that was a joke < 1272159864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you not get it? < 1272159876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelin_Guide < 1272159883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was common knowledge < 1272159891 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1272159894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, "Embarcadero" bought out Delphi < 1272159896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1272159907 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know what it was at first, now I can see on Wikipedia, thanks < 1272159925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EUROPEAN guide. < 1272159931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38 is ... american or canadian; I forget. < 1272159933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think american. < 1272159984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the five-star thing is for hotels, not restaurants though < 1272160005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right, 3 stars for restaurants iirc < 1272160016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program TEX; {all file names are defined dynamically} < 1272160021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1272160022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the syntax is < 1272160026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but then there would have been no joke < 1272160027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program foo(files, that, are, used)? < 1272160034 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I live in Canada, as you should be able to check by my IP address < 1272160049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canada's a nice place. < 1272160060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if files can be declared dynamically why does program exist? < 1272160105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah. input and output for stdin and stdout iirc < 1272160122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i guess they couldn't in original pascal < 1272160128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I see. < 1272160135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how they are defined dynamically. < 1272160137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should typeset tex.web. < 1272160217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noweb - A WEB-like literate-programming tool < 1272160218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowebm - A WEB-like literate-programming tool - transitional package < 1272160218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cwebx - C/C++ literate programming system (Marc van Leeuwen's version) < 1272160218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnelweb - A literate-programming tool < 1272160218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fweb - A literate-programming tool for C/C++/Fortran/Ratfor < 1272160221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian doesn't include WEB; hmph! < 1272160244 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our first semester programming course back when was in turbo pascal. iirc that didn't need "program" < 1272160263 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought Debian includes a lot of stuff, doesn't it? Perhaps some things are missing because nobody is submitting a package for it < 1272160323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, unit? < 1272160334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is all I remember from pascal nowdays < 1272160336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unit foo; < 1272160344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@!alpha_file=packed file of text_char; {files that contain textual data} < 1272160344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@!byte_file=packed file of eight_bits; {files that contain binary data} < 1272160349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait program foo; or such was used for the program file < 1272160352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm it had that, its own module system iirc. but that was not for main programs i think < 1272160355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was delphi not pascal though < 1272160381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, delphi used units mostly with a single program file for starting the main program code in some unit < 1272160384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think we ever got to unit in that course though :D < 1272160423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. i just vaguely recall turbo pascal had something like it. < 1272160426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think we need packed. < 1272160433 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :packed is just performance stuff. < 1272160442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sure uber-Pascal does not require it. < 1272160460 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: remainder from way back in memory-starved days, i assume < 1272160484 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't string = packed array of char < 1272160575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" string = packed array [1..255] of char;" < 1272160576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1272160582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you have to choose the size in the type declaration. < 1272160615 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hm. well now i'm getting _really_ vague. < 1272160633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol, having to choose a certain length of all strings < 1272160636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :amazing, I love this language < 1272160640 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Astro File Manager installed something without my permission somehow < 1272160685 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My N1 came with some religious song :/ < 1272160685 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turbo pascal had its own dynamical string type, i think < 1272160694 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generic religiousiy, nothing specific < 1272160698 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a song singing about Heaven < 1272160708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : wasn't string = packed array of char < 1272160712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pascal strings are iirc: < 1272160716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1272160717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: so remove the app < 1272160726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forgot if length was 1 or 2 bytes < 1272160742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :delphi had: < 1272160748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently dynamically opening files was an extension to Pascal in Knuth's compiler! < 1272160750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think that is an extension, and what turbo pascal did < 1272160771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh, but even older pascal didn't use \0 terminated strings iirc < 1272160787 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I _like_ the app that got installed without my permission < 1272160805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, what app was that? < 1272160810 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quickoffice < 1272160810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Knuth did not even use structures. < 1272160812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :older pascal iirc you had to declare all strings as fixed-length arrays, like alise said (oh _right_...) < 1272160813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1272160827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the realisation dawns :) < 1272160845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you didn't have to use a common length type for them, i think < 1272160849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what if you had a shorter string? < 1272160859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: different type < 1272160859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, space padding? < 1272160859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but if you made a type "string"... < 1272160862 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's just builtin Quickoffice functionality, rather than an explicitely-installed App < 1272160863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: space padding. < 1272160867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or \0 padding or something < 1272160874 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: probably the former, and *explicitly < 1272160874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well what if you needed to work with unknown string length in some function < 1272160878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't < 1272160896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: dammit now i'm also tempted to quote alise to you < 1272160900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, lets say, 0-32 chars < 1272160903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1272160913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you ignored all the ones after some length parameter < 1272160918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or looked for some sort of padding character < 1272160920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, plagiera icke! ;P < 1272160943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well the point is he clearly knows this stuff at least as well as i do < 1272160976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1272161011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@p function new_null_box:pointer; {creates a new box node} < 1272161013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1272161016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pascal didn't have a function keyword... < 1272161020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh; WEB source is so confusing. < 1272161025 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WEB does. < 1272161028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1272161086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hah; TeX /does/ use pointers < 1272161091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1272161092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@!pool_pointer = 0..pool_size; {for variables that point into |str_pool|} < 1272161094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@!str_pool:packed array[pool_pointer] of packed_ASCII_code; {the characters} < 1272161095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw could you parse that Swedish? < 1272161102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just uses integers and a big array < 1272161106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: given that he started the pascal discussion... < 1272161110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sure < 1272161117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ? < 1272161128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise did < 1272161128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the pascal discussion has to do with reading Swedish < 1272161150 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it was an addition to my previous comment < 1272161154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272161182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps if I define uber-Pascal properly and write a compiler to some uncouth language like C then I can stop myself coding anything but amazingly pure algorithms :P < 1272161190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: um i'm pretty sure pascal had function < 1272161194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I found a new addicting game. It is KDE though < 1272161197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knetwalk < 1272161199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: procedure yes, but function? < 1272161202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :part of kdegames < 1272161212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, new to me) < 1272161213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: procedure was like void functions in C < 1272161219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :function was the rest < 1272161230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you are right. < 1272161236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why on earth would you need output? < 1272161266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah yes I remember that < 1272161319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ Here is a procedure that asks the user to type a line of input, < 1272161319 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the "sure" was about your swedish though < 1272161320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming that the |selector| setting is either |term_only| or |term_and_log|. < 1272161320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The input is placed into locations |first| through |last-1| of the < 1272161320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|buffer| array, and echoed on the transcript file if appropriate. < 1272161320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This procedure is never called when |interaction < 1272162400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/cweb.html < 1272162402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf where is web < 1272162407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i shot web < 1272162412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I CANNOT FIND IT < 1272162483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen%27s_Device this is awesome < 1272162638 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is? < 1272162673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272162673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it < 1272162682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it exploits call by name to do "symbolic" parameters < 1272162702 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Knuth made an incorrect conjecture once? < 1272162714 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Looking at the Man or boy test thing] < 1272162739 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I get it < 1272162741 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :epic < 1272162743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: yes < 1272162748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the greats make mistakes < 1272162755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :function factorial(n:integer):integer; < 1272162755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :begin < 1272162756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : factorial:=1; < 1272162756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for k:=1 to n do factorial:=factorial*k < 1272162756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end; < 1272162756 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blasphemer! ;) < 1272162761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the function name as the return value < 1272162766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pascal you one crazy bitch < 1272162774 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is Algol < 1272162776 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is even worse < 1272162780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i coded that < 1272162781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :factorial < 1272162784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah algol is crazier < 1272162785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but cooler also < 1272162790 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scala has call-by-name < 1272162798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that algol 60 < 1272162801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is relatively conventional < 1272162806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algol 68 is the uber-crazy one < 1272162808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nobody used it < 1272162810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and algol means 60 < 1272162822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL_68 it has a longer article because wikitards like craziness :P < 1272162995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, you can include Special:RecentChanges on a wiki page? < 1272163039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1272163215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess this change might help our wiki look more alive < 1272163284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what change? < 1272163295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow; that's ugly < 1272163301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone get rid of it < 1272163310 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On esolang wiki? < 1272163320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main page < 1272163455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's true that the old page looks static, though < 1272163501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you only looked at it you _could_ get the impression the wiki was dead < 1272163511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah right < 1272163526 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Perhaps if you embedded a (randomly chosen on each page-load) javascript esolang interpreter on the main page. Can't call that static! < 1272163536 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1272163543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a literal one < 1272163623 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1272164013 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone's face is growing out of a phone? < 1272164034 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats Sgeo -----###
< 1272164085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not literally, mind < 1272164220 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272164229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to write an uber-Pascal compiler before specifying it; a path to certain failure, of course.
< 1272164288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind that clearly uber-Pascal is the only acceptable language to write an uber-Pascal compiler in. < 1272164298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are certain failures you want to avoid < 1272164335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are certain certain failures that you are certain to be unable to avoid, certainly. < 1272164450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has written an -- almost certainly incorrect -- uber-Pascal program to print out Collatz sequences, so let's see if we can compile it to C.
< 1272164465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It worries me that writeln() is a polymorphic, variadic function: something patently impossible in Pascal. < 1272164628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, actually, the program enumerates one specific Collatz sequence (the one starting at n=12345). < 1272164641 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1272164711 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spoiler: it ends up at 1 < 1272164740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't say. < 1272164894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In 51 steps. < 1272164900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well; 50, if you don't count the base case. < 1272164922 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1272165129 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272165174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Entries in the The On-Line Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences give at most three lines of terms < 1272165175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(about 200 characters - a carry-over from the days when the database was on punched cards).]] < 1272165179 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know the OEIS was that old. < 1272165365 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how do you know? ;-) < 1272165436 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 1267650600228229401496703205376 doesn't ever repeat :-) < 1272165473 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it does < 1272165518 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, technically i think it's still unknown if there are cycles other that 4,2,1 < 1272165531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it might have repeated somewhere else < 1272165564 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collatz_conjecture < 1272165579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did? < 1272165586 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whistles innocently
< 1272165649 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Simons/deWeger in 2003 extended their own proof up to "68-cycles": there is no m-cycle up to m=68 a=T(a;(1)L1,A1,(1)L2,A2,...,(1)L68,A68). Whatever number of steps in L1 to L68 and whatever exponents A1 to A68 one may choose, there is no positive odd integer number a satisfying the cycle condition. Steiner claimed in a usenet discussion he could extend this up to m=71.[citation needed]" < 1272165678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: 1267650600228229401496703205376 < 20 * 2^58 < 1272165687 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1272165696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it does terminate in 1, by computer exhaustion < 1272165718 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, 20*2^58? < 1272165731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is also known that {4,2,1} is the only repeating cycle possible with fewer than 35400 terms." < 1272165744 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's only 5764607523034234880 < 1272165754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, you're right < 1272165772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd quickly check it with computer but I don't have a calculator/CAS with that much precision atm < 1272165780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh m-cycle isn't the same as cycle of length m there < 1272165786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what oerjan said :P < 1272165800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION writes a crazy parser by hand
< 1272165824 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no need; my earlier number was just 2^100 :-) < 1272165838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case 'b': < 1272165838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : NEXT; IS('e',go1); < 1272165838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : NEXT; IS('g',go1); < 1272165838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : NEXT; IS('i',go1); < 1272165838 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : NEXT; IS('n',go1); < 1272165839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : WHITESPACE; < 1272165839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given < 1272165840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define GET old=c; c=getc(f); if(c==EOF) goto eof < 1272165840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define FORGET ungetc(c,f); c=old < 1272165841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define IS(d,g) if(tolower(c)!=d){FORGET; goto g;} < 1272165842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define WHITESPACE GET; while(isspace(c)){GET;} FORGET < 1272165849 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: d'oh < 1272165855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1272165855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1272165888 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot is just so nice for these sorts of computations... < 1272165911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i checked his number in haskell btw, i have a Collatz.hs module from before < 1272165959 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i did _not_ check before my "spoiler" above, though) < 1272166119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that parser would have trouble with identifiers like beef, wouldn't it < 1272166179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you are discarding all but the mismatched character < 1272166224 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ungetc can only do one char in a row, can't it < 1272166412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1272166942 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... is Pure an esoteric programming language? < 1272166974 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is pure < 1272166991 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are other ways to write stuff using C preprocessor, too, especially if you are using GNU C. GNU C has some additional things that help a bit. Including typeof operator, ({ }) blocks inside of expressions, some __builtin_ commands, are useful when writing preprocessor macros < 1272167023 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might also be what __attribute__((unused)) is meant for. < 1272167027 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272167027 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU C should just add hygienic macros and call it a day, honestly. < 1272167031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: pure the rewrite language? < 1272167031 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that < 1272167039 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1272167039 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are hygienic macros? < 1272167042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oerjan: i could store all chars read so far in a buffer < 1272167043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : of a certain fixed size; and specify that identifiers need only be handled up to N long < 1272167048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: it is pretty but not really esoteric < 1272167051 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pure_%28programming_language%29 < 1272167052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the paradigm is esotericish; see Defcalc < 1272167054 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1272167059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Defcalc < 1272167067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Pure is basically the core of most computer algebra systems < 1272167069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not really esoteric < 1272167072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well sure, just your code didn't < 1272167074 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there an unlambda interpreter in brainfuck? < 1272167077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah but it will now! < 1272167078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes iirc < 1272167079 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or brainfuck to unlambda < 1272167082 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1272167086 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Macros whose expansion is guaranteed not to cause collisions with existing symbol definitions. < 1272167088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters < 1272167098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no < 1272167115 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise it's not there :/ < 1272167123 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I can get there in a couple steps < 1272167125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah :/ < 1272167135 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is ther any program which finds the shortest path in that matrix? < 1272167135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: heh! < 1272167142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but you could write a general one < 1272167148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh now that calls for some super algorithm < 1272167150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1272167158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apply A* to the esointerpreters page. < 1272167195 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's not that hard, _most_ things there are either just implemented, just implemented, or are brainfuck < 1272167207 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: so why is defcalc esoteric but pure not? :p < 1272167215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i haven't heard of any unlambda - brainfuck connection < 1272167225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: for some paradigm P, tarpit(P) = esoteric; fully-developed language(P) = not esoteric < 1272167232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, C already has something *kinda-sorta* like hygienic macros... static functions are *like* them, for some purposes. < 1272167232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangestrange instance of(P) = esoteric < 1272167235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just not as general. :( < 1272167242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"just implemented, just implemented, or are brainfuck" < 1272167246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just implementors, you mean < 1272167250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er right < 1272167290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well to interpret unlambda in brainfuck < 1272167299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to have either an intercal in brainfuck -- not happening < 1272167305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a lazy k in brainfuck, which we have < 1272167316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Why *is* Brainfuck so popular, anyways? < 1272167318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no < 1272167319 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See line 66 of http://pastebin.com/U0gRGw6N that's how __attribute__((unused)) is used < 1272167326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy k isn't implemented < 1272167330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: can't interpret unlambda, sorry < 1272167331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but brainfuck... < 1272167342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlambda only has self-interps, sorry < 1272167350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: can't be done < 1272167373 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: defcalc is purer than Pure :p < 1272167402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: lies. < 1272167416 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, pure has too many built-in special forms < 1272167416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: can't be done with current state of the art. < 1272167422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could've *sworn* there was a Brainfuck in unlambda. :( < 1272167430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: yeah :P < 1272167463 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If there isn't one, maybe write one < 1272167488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: also my parser is actually a lexer... so I lied when I said it was a parser < 1272167495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that the compiler operates directly on the lexing results < 1272167497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCCBF really needs to be worked on. :P < 1272167498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no need for parsing < 1272167501 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although perhaps unlambda should have new commands for input/output by bits < 1272167515 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: lazy k is rather too complicated to implement. like befunge, it's a language that's relatively easy to implement other things in < 1272167520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a BEGIN without END, it simply fails to return from do_BEGIN() and errors out < 1272167521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes < 1272167537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's see, what would be easiest to implement in unlambda... < 1272167545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K, actually. < 1272167552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would thue be easy to implement in unlambda? < 1272167556 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1272167574 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far only brainfuck has hit the sweet spot of being both. you will note that the only _cycle_ in the graph is with it and another almost identical language (Bub iirc) < 1272167578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the brainfuck thing for lazyk is just a compilerish thing < 1272167579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(macros) < 1272167590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah bub < 1272167602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not quite identical though < 1272167605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loops are gotos < 1272167617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for unlambda we want something without much syntax < 1272167623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :underload, maybe? < 1272167636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf in underload can't be hard < 1272167642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Underload_Interpreter ;; I forgot how lovely Redivider is. < 1272167654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A gem of an esolang; why does nobody like it? < 1272167658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, or at least mention it. < 1272167661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K in Unlambda would probably be pretty easy. < 1272167687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's no bf-in-lazyk < 1272167690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a set of compiler macros < 1272167693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider/Brainfuck_Interpreter ;; also smexy < 1272167697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wouldn't be hard, either. < 1272167698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, thue would be awful in unlambda, because unlambda has a hard time comparing chars < 1272167706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah < 1272167711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually the example -- infix to RPN -- on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider -- is actually very nice. < 1272167719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, it'd be nice to write it even in a non-esolang that way. < 1272167739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact any brainfuck implementation in unlambda is going to require a full character table of ?x and .x functions < 1272167757 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH right. < 1272167770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck-in-Thue has the impressive property of containing every 256 ascii character. < 1272167776 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's needed for any output in unlambda. :* < 1272167777 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my unlambda in unlambda barely got by with a ?x table, .x could be done with |) < 1272167778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::(, even. < 1272167789 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who was that crazy guy with the blog about smallest possible self interpreters? < 1272167807 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: brainfuck-in-thue is not really workable without I/O translation < 1272167823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because thue has an input injection problem < 1272167824 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://eigenratios.blogspot.com/ < 1272167847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My God, Redivider is beautiful for parsing. < 1272167898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yep < 1272167900 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: bf in underload is impossible, because of input lacking < 1272167905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yeah he's awesome < 1272167906 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's not smallest < 1272167909 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's fastest < 1272167913 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1272167914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes < 1272167926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'll have you know I shaped redivider! < 1272167934 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sucks he's not been bloging < 1272167937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I nudged Warrigal until he made it how I like. < 1272167941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I just said that recently!! < 1272167964 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272167968 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SYNCRONISITY < 1272167978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: There was a really really nice SK interp in it that warrigal did < 1272167979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORK is probably far too hard to implement in anything... :/ < 1272167982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme try and find it < 1272168001 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except quite possibly Glass. < 1272168003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION imagines an esolang designed to minimise the size of its own self-interpreter, while not "cheating" (like say using eval or whatever)
< 1272168011 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who wants a Gregorcycle? :P < 1272168014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Binary lambda-calculus as per John Tromp has a 210 bit self-interpreter. < 1272168019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq> Lazy K in Unlambda would probably be pretty easy. <-- lazy evaluation is hard to emulate if you have neither mutable datastructures nor laziness already < 1272168023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is 26 and 1/4 bytes. < 1272168030 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda-calculus is the best possible programming language < 1272168035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's sorta cheating, packing things into one byte. < 1272168040 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coding it in binary is a trick < 1272168046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Don't have to be actually lazy, just call-by-need. :) < 1272168049 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1272168062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least, I don't *think* Lazy K actually mandates laziness) < 1272168081 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha oh wow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-interpreter < 1272168085 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Clive Gifford introduced a measure quality of self-interpreter - eigenratio. Eigenratio is a ratio between computer time spent to run a stack of N self-interpreters and time spent to run a stack of N-1 self-interpreters, when N goes to infinity. This value does not depend on top-level program being run." < 1272168095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's the eigenratio blogs < 1272168097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blog < 1272168111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i think underload in unlambda can be done without a full character table, since it only prints characters previously read < 1272168111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he conjectures, based on nothing at all but it would be nice, that the best possible ratio is phi :) < 1272168122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a binary lambda calculus self-interp: < 1272168124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01010001101000010000000110000001100001011110011111110000101 < 1272168124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11001111111000000111100001011011011100111111110000111111110 < 1272168124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :00010111101001110100101100111111000011011000010111111110000 < 1272168124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11111111000011100110111101110011010000110010001101000011010 < 1272168130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or in De Bruijn-index lambda calculus: < 1272168131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (λ11)(λ(λλλ1(λλ1(λ3(6(λ2(6(λλ3(λ123)))(7(λ7(λ31(21))))))(1(5(λ12))(λ7(λ7(λ2(14)))3)))))(11))(λ1((λ11)(λ11))) < 1272168142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where 123 is ((1 2) 3)) < 1272168146 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I've seen that program before < 1272168163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sweet. < 1272168165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you mean call-by-name < 1272168184 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just ev(fx)=ev(f)ev(x);ev(\x.m)=\x.ev(m[x]) using scott mogensen encoding < 1272168193 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turning it into binary is stupid < 1272168222 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obfuscation < 1272168240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: it's not about that < 1272168243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's for kolgomorov complexity < 1272168246 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://homepages.cwi.nl/~tromp/cl/cl.html < 1272168250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tromp is a good friend of ours, not an idiot :) < 1272168262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for kolgomorov complexity you need some sort of number to denote the "size" of a program < 1272168269 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Ah, right. That. < 1272168339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i dispute that conjecture, i _suspect_ my unlambda-in-unlambda interpreter actually has ratio 1. otoh some might consider its methode cheating. < 1272168346 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*method < 1272168356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how does it work? < 1272168364 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it surely can't run /exactly as fast/ as the host interp < 1272168381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but there is no extra overhead after the second iteration or so < 1272168415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1272168428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you have to count normal interp to first selfinterp, anyway < 1272168431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it parses, always, the program into an eta-expanded version of itself, which is the same one after any number of iterations after the first < 1272168452 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then that is directly run by applying it to an exit continuation < 1272168497 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's like using eval, really. < 1272168501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in some sense after parsing it skips directly down to the first interpreter < 1272168607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i said some might consider it cheating. otoh it cheats using a fundamental feature of lambda calculus :D < 1272168615 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :) < 1272168668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: right but what is the ratio of host interp : selfinterp? < 1272168683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that + some (since there's overhead in your parsing) is your eigenratio < 1272168688 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it parses it then turns it into 'direct' code, the parsing is O(1) < 1272168692 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to running the program < 1272168695 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1272168700 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can ignore the O(1) < 1272168714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't though < 1272168719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because eigenratios measure actual time ratio < 1272168722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1272168728 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over which programs? < 1272168736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinite stack of self-interps < 1272168740 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhh < 1272168742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just measured O()ness, that'd be easy < 1272168745 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's differentt to what I was thinking < 1272168750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because most every non-stupid interpreter is O(n) so to speak < 1272168888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1272168898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you chain n programs, then most steps will take the same time t independent on n, i think. so ((n+1)t)/(nt) = (n+1)/n -> 1 < 1272168905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say E is the eigenratio of a language L with self-interpreter I < 1272168922 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each step just has to parse the next, then run it < 1272168944 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my reason for believing it has ratio 1, after all < 1272168952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let T(f,x) be the time it takes the interpreting-function f to run the program x < 1272168956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1272168960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let T(f,x,i) be the time it takes the interpreting-function f to run the program x with input i < 1272168997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and let F(p,i) return an input suitable for passing to I < 1272169002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that represents run-the-program-p-with-input-i < 1272169015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let S(0,p,i)=T(E,p,i); S(n,p,i)=T(E,I,F(p,i)) < 1272169045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let E'(n) = S(n,nop,"") < 1272169060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let E (loosely) = lim n->inf, S(n,nop,"") < 1272169065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course the nop and "" are irrelevant in E) < 1272169092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm wait < 1272169099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now let S(0,p,i)=T(E,p,i); S(1,p,i)=T(E,I,F(p,i)) < 1272169100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1272169113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1272169114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get it < 1272169117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(0) is regular interp < 1272169120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(1) is one self interp stack < 1272169123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :S(n) is n nested self-interps < 1272169137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so E is the limit as n goes to infinity of T(S(n))/T(S(n-1)) < 1272169141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where T measures the time to run < 1272169148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some simple base program < 1272169173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you have some simple but not instant base program P, and you do E(P), then E(I(P)), then E(I(I(P))) and eventually they'll tend to some value E. < 1272169176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am bad at explaining < 1272169226 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: note that for my interp chaining is as simple as cat interp interp interp interp botprog botinput | unlambda < 1272169231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272169238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also note that eigenratios tend to be very large. < 1272169253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fastest BF self-interpreter, cgbfi2.b, has an eigenratio somewhere in the low thousands. < 1272169287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So as n goes to infinity, Time(Stack(n)) = lowthousands*Time(Stack(n-1)) < 1272169289 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should actually time my interpreter :D < 1272169298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Feel free. < 1272169307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember to run the first timing twice due to silly OS caching. < 1272169314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd write a program to keep increasing the nestings. < 1272169320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also remember to do one with just the base interp < 1272169328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, of course, do the division for you at each step < 1272169330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1272169333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1272169347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would we want the base interp alone? < 1272169351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider n=1, Time(Stack(1)) = something*Time(Stack(0)) < 1272169355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stack(0) = base interp < 1272169359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it's the "overhead" of your interp < 1272169368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. literally a measure of how much slower it makes things < 1272169372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least i think you include the base interp < 1272169395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 4:22 am but I'm going to write a Redivider interp anyway because I'm not tired. < 1272169405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the limit as stack height -> inf, after all < 1272169444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how about running once without base and once with? :P < 1272169451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whichever is the larger value is likely correct ;-) < 1272169477 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean _without_ base? < 1272169492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in start with cat selfinterp foo | unlambda < 1272169521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, you're right. < 1272169523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should omit base. < 1272169533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But i'd still take sequential samples. < 1272169548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question is what to use for foo. hello.unl perhaps. < 1272169557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, that would work. < 1272169579 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The self-interps are complex enough that they'll end up spending most of their time running the endless copies of themselves rather than the actual program. < 1272169600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reason to take a bunch of higher and higher samples: it could take too-many-to-run interpreters before it starts converging, so at least you can come up with an approximation formula given a bunch of samples < 1272169620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can then numerically evaluate at lots of big points to get a guesstimate < 1272169627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that prints 10 lines < 1272169666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's okay < 1272169670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redirect output to /dev/null < 1272169675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or NUL or whatever you dos folk use < 1272169687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "Furthermore it seemed that the limit value of this ratio didn't change when a different top level program was used (on the very top of the stack)." < 1272169693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it doesn't really matter, but i wouldn't use nop < 1272169698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is on the nvg linux machine < 1272169730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol i tried to reverse redivider to get a nicer interp name < 1272169809 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want the user times i guess? < 1272169823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it usually real? < 1272169855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : e Elapsed real (wall clock) time used by the process, in < 1272169856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : seconds. < 1272169857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well this is a multiuser machine, does this matter? < 1272169873 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a server < 1272169882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : U Total number of CPU-seconds that the process used direct‐ < 1272169883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ly (in user mode), in seconds. < 1272169889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So basically U is not just you-user. < 1272169899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want e, which is how long it actually took according to a stopwatch. < 1272169929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real 0m1.156s < 1272169929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :user 0m1.154s < 1272169929 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sys 0m0.004s < 1272169935 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what i get < 1272169939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash builtin < 1272169966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for what stack? < 1272169984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run it for only one self-interp, then two, etc.; record these values, then for each value take it divided by the previous one < 1272169987 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash-2.04$ time cat interpreter.unl interpreter.unl interpreter.unl interpreter.unl interpreter.unl interpreter.unl interpreter.unl interpreter.unl unlambda-mirror/CUAN/Hello.unl | unlambda > /dev/null < 1272169994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gave that < 1272170000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the resulting list of values are sequential approximations of your eigenratio < 1272170001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one i tried < 1272170023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well do you want me to use real < 1272170039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272170111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0m0.003s 0m0.059s 0m1.104s 0m1.137s 0m1.159s 0m1.143s 0m1.108s 0m1.111s 0m1.156s < 1272170145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for i in $(seq 1 20); do /usr/bin/time -f '%e' cat $(seq 1 $n | awk '{print "interpreter.unl"}') unlambda-mirror/CUAN/Hello.unl | unlambda > /dev/null; done < 1272170147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run this < 1272170158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, not enough precision < 1272170172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh < 1272170174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should work fine < 1272170181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's from running unlambda on just Hello.unl to running it on 8 interps + Hello.unl < 1272170193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine starts with one interpreter < 1272170195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :up to 20 < 1272170196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give it a go < 1272170210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pastebin the results... or just put them here, and i'll calculate the eigenratio approximations < 1272170236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.00 all over :D < 1272170269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what; then how does your 8 stack result in that? < 1272170276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can't be < 1272170284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1272170293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: up it to 100?? < 1272170295 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably you have some bug < 1272170313 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: nonsense, it went far too fast < 1272170323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272170325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ec < 1272170325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1272170347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1272170351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the results of time are being piped to unlambda < 1272170352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272170376 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise http://www.paultaylor.eu/~pt/prafm/html/c8.html < 1272170385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1272170389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right only the builtin takes a whole pipeline < 1272170389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for i in $(seq 1 20); do cat $(seq 1 $n | awk '{print "interpreter.unl"}') unlambda-mirror/CUAN/Hello.unl | /usr/bin/time -f '%e' unlambda > /dev/null; done < 1272170409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: has uninterpreted latex :( < 1272170417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: 1: No such file or directory < 1272170435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok er... < 1272170435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run this < 1272170441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seq 1 10 | awk '{print "hi"}' < 1272170458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10 lines of hi < 1272170481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat $(seq 1 5 | awk '{print "interpreter.unl"}') unlambda-mirror/CUAN/Hello.unl < 1272170485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should see a bunch of your interp < 1272170486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then hellog < 1272170488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hello < 1272170567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ok try this: < 1272170575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that did strange things to the terminal. i think printing a program that contains an ascii table may not be a good idea :D < 1272170590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nothing really bad though) < 1272170605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for i in $(seq 1 20); do < 1272170606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cat $(seq 1 $n | awk '{print "interpreter.unl"}') unlambda-mirror/CUAN/Hello.unl | < 1272170606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (time (unlambda >/dev/null)) 2>&1 | grep real; < 1272170606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done < 1272170617 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1272170628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1272170633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can i get that as one line? < 1272170636 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1272170650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for i in $(seq 1 20); do cat $(seq 1 $n | awk '{print "interpreter.unl"}') unlambda-mirror/CUAN/Hello.unl | (time (unlambda >/dev/null)) 2>&1 | grep real; done < 1272170674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If you're looking for a project... a http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider self-interpreter would be very easy, considering the BNF is in a form almost accepted by it already ;-) < 1272170699 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that gave a syntax error rather than continuing the command < 1272170703 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1272170713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I've already got quite a project. < 1272170718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: meh :P < 1272170722 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll fix it with vim < 1272170722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how about just giving me shell access :P < 1272170723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you'll note, I am hardcore learning-Japanese-ness. < 1272170745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: what error did I make? < 1272170750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see < 1272170769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Teach Redivider Japanese. < 1272170783 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah. < 1272170803 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: removing the alise> from your multiline version gave a program that printed a lot and messed up my terminal again < 1272170820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what < 1272170824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just going to write all the commands out for you < 1272170852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i know < 1272170854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's because it says $n < 1272170855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not $i < 1272170857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look i'll fix it :P < 1272170937 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i changed $n to $i, now it printed even more junk < 1272170937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://pastie.org/933673.txt?key=pzvxvuz0ddpzg15rgokma < 1272170942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :save this as times.sh < 1272170943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then do < 1272170945 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chmod +x times.sh < 1272170952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait that won't work < 1272170952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1272170990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/933674.txt?key=j0smhs7f2sgaszh9btlmwg < 1272170992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run this shell script. < 1272171000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will print a bunch of lines starting "real some time" < 1272171059 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should I do right now? < 1272171068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok more reasonable < 1272171087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except the actual numbers, they decreased at some steps :D < 1272171121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well you said the ratio would be ~1, so... < 1272171138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed 's/real/user/' it and maybe you will get better results < 1272171144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pastebin the timings, anyway < 1272171146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: dance < 1272171156 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0m0.049s 0m1.150s 0m1.117s 0m1.260s 0m1.204s 0m1.113s 0m1.140s 0m1.164s 0m1.120s 0m1.115s 0m1.152s 0m1.127s 0m1.105s 0m1.125s 0m1.110s 0m1.113s 0m1.118s 0m1.106s 0m1.114s 0m1.128s < 1272171197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are the user ones? < 1272171201 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no real < 1272171203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1272171210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish we could have more precision... < 1272171212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION calculates eigenratios
< 1272171290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0m0.047s 0m1.107s 0m1.107s 0m1.115s 0m1.119s 0m1.140s 0m1.142s 0m1.147s 0m1.119s 0m1.144s 0m1.102s 0m1.096s 0m1.103s 0m1.101s 0m1.111s 0m1.101s 0m1.114s 0m1.114s 0m1.095s 0m1.105s < 1272171294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(user) < 1272171316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do those better reflect what you saw? < 1272171335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/933678.txt?key=q00ia70tvjxrvxsolqe7gq the eigenratios for the real times; you are right, it is very close to 1 < 1272171350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd look for an algebraic expression approximating it but that expression would be "1" < 1272171350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um they are all rather similar, both real and user are a bit > 1 s < 1272171356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from the first term, what's up with that. < 1272171402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the user ones, two terms are actually 1.0 < 1272171406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(eigenratios) < 1272171407 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never runs the interpreter.unl from eta expanded version < 1272171420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the first one has some overhead < 1272171423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's one interpreter.unl vs two < 1272171443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the first interpreter.unl is run directly by the C interp < 1272171454 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are no GENUINE solutions to "Calculator" problem on Anarchy Golf, how short can anyone write genuine one in different program language? (Put "(genuine)" after your name if you want to tell the difference) < 1272171457 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second is parsed and eta expanded < 1272171483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1272171503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, very little happens from the second on... < 1272171508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh you mean http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?Calculator? < 1272171510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is my problem! < 1272171516 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*after the second one < 1272171526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/can/ you write a genuine solution? < 1272171530 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have never been able to solve a single one of these golfs < 1272171531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you used to be able to modify your own source file iirc < 1272171539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is how I intended people to do it < 1272171552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you could try doing that < 1272171574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i forget what your file ends up being named, but < 1272171597 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I believe you still can modify your own source file. That's how I solved "Regexpr Next Input" < 1272171618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you'd make the program be "open own file; append the input and also append 0 if it's *; print " < 1272171622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where print would print nothing < 1272171624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'd turn into < 1272171625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print 50 < 1272171626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1272171630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also append /1/ if it's * < 1272171631 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it'd be < 1272171632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print < 1272171635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print 50 < 1272171640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait it has to output 50 at the start... < 1272171640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1272171711 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not completely true that nobody has written a genuine solution to "Calculator" problem: I have done it. < 1272171752 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The source file is always called "test." and the extension for the type, and for most languages is the only file in the current directory. < 1272171781 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: one annoying thing about those timings is that the overhead of the first two interps is clearly swamping out everything else, so it is hard to say if the rest is even growing. hm... < 1272171804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i think it is not growing, as it sometimes goes down < 1272171818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/but/ I am not sure whether your eigenratio is ~23.5 or 1 < 1272171820 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although my genuine solution for "Calculator" does not modify its own source file < 1272171835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is 1; email Clive Gifford with your findings < 1272171849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: oh, that works < 1272171857 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well that just means it's even more swamped. < 1272171874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'll do something else first < 1272171883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clive.gifford@gmail.com < 1272171896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK IT'S 5AM WHY! < 1272171896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually is that site still alive? < 1272171905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well last post 2007 but the man is still alive presumably < 1272171914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to stay awake, I'm not tired... but now it'll be really late when I wake up < 1272171931 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ACCEPT IT < 1272171939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SLEEP IS OVERRATED < 1272171941 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it says 4 am on my clock < 1272171946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ?? < 1272171949 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is your clock correct? < 1272171952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6AM MWAHAHAHA < 1272171960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5:05am Sunday (BST) - Time in United Kingdom < 1272171968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: adjust your clocks... belatedly < 1272171984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax is an icelandic, clearly < 1272172005 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>a;<>a;expr `C' < 1272173753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no < 1272173763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C{x;xinf) Ei(n) < 1272174780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed all terms after the second round to 1 < 1272174786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even one >=1.5 < 1272174860 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0m0.031s 0m1.247s 0m2.451s 0m3.769s 0m5.393s 0m6.052s 0m7.609s 0m8.776s 0m9.804s 0m10.976s 0m12.203s 0m13.869s 0m14.665s 0m15.886s 0m16.971s 0m18.413s 0m19.361s 0m22.003s 0m21.855s 0m23.977s < 1272174864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(real) < 1272174870 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: The poor mimic the blind. < 1272174960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you work it out < 1272174965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just dividing each term by its previous < 1272175029 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272175029 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272175082 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lease < 1272175086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find myself wanting a language with lots of tuples. < 1272175096 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lisp < 1272175113 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: toi! you'll have to build them from sets, though :D < 1272175133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: something a bit higher level :) < 1272175159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just don't feel like haskell :( < 1272175172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i should write a redivider self-interp < 1272175187 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it called redivider < 1272175240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :palindrome < 1272175242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it DIVIDES input into bits to parse them < 1272175470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiiiiiiiit's bright outside now < 1272175492 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1272175503 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm staying up to fix my sleep pattern < 1272175529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha... i have to be up early on monday < 1272175536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i want to get a lot of awake time on sunday < 1272175544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i am not tired enough to sleep < 1272175545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should I do? < 1272175545 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to be up early on truesday < 1272175577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading a cool category theory pdf < 1272175613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit why the fuck do i have to go back on monday... < 1272175743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why do i have the urge to write a new interpreter with which to write this interpreter in < 1272175976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how on earth the two syntaxes in http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider relate
< 1272176037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the first is a lexer < 1272176089 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get natural transforms < 1272176203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1272176209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no reason redivider couldn't be compiled, is there? < 1272176529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first person to name a language to implement redivider in gets NOTHING < 1272176674 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thue ? < 1272176764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way :) < 1272176767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redivider is a complex language < 1272177021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : How do I get Python to shut up about deprecated things in old code? < 1272177021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_habnabit> alise, fix the deprecated things. < 1272177025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_habnabit> Or, things that are using deprecated things. < 1272177026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<_habnabit> Or maybe even things that are using things that are using deprecated things. < 1272177027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"No, fuck you" < 1272177079 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to IRC < 1272177162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they just ignored me after I told them it's not my code and I don't know how to fix it < 1272177202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the record, "-W ignore::DeprecationWarning" < 1272177281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo | ./redivider hello.rd < 1272177282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, world! < 1272177282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay. < 1272177709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: fuck it's almost 7am what do i do < 1272177722 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stay < 1272177726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ok but when bed < 1272177791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to write an enumerator of fibonaccis in redivider
< 1272177805 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im doing category theory < 1272177992 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1272177992 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: my program calculates fib(13)=233! < 1272177998 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that correct < 1272178001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses regular expressions... but not numbers < 1272178007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is < 1272178012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¡ : 0 -> A < 1272178016 0 :Rugxulo!~user@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272178017 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ring any bells??? < 1272178029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1272178031 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's False_rect < 1272178036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a morphism isn't it < 1272178045 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in category theory they call it "GNAB" < 1272178047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is everything the same as every other thing! < 1272178049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol gnab < 1272178049 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, alise, log shows that you asked a lot of Pascal questions < 1272178053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Yes. < 1272178056 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am learning the language of the people < 1272178062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: here is my program: http://pastie.org/933749.txt?key=9tvwg1cbh3ydxdiqlq < 1272178066 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really a Pascal programmer, but there are various versions < 1272178072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I had to use fib(n+2) because subtraction is hard :) < 1272178074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yeah < 1272178085 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try GNU Pascal sometime, it supports a lot < 1272178095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah I only like Pascal in its most minimal form < 1272178103 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is ... ? < 1272178112 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no minimal < 1272178112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even pointers are suspect imo, if knuth can write TeX without using a single one then that's good enough for everyone :) < 1272178126 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pointers aren't single-length arrays, they're addresses < 1272178131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know < 1272178132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a joke < 1272178139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/systems/knuth/dist/tex/tex.web < 1272178144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore the bits that look like english and tex < 1272178160 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISO 7185 (standard pascal), ISO 10206 (extended pascal), Turbo Pascal, Object Pascal, Delphi < 1272178166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's written in 80s-era pascal, without records, or pointers, or more than a few call-by-reference arguments < 1272178169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or many other things < 1272178187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet it's survived 'til today, is trivially translated to C compileable on modern systems, and is responsible for the vast majority of published mathematical and scientific papers < 1272178206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's still maintained, and widely recognised as one of the most reliable programs written... as well as the best typesetter < 1272178207 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80s-era doesn't mean anything ... it's either ISO 7185 or TP (or UCSD, unlikely) or VMS or ... < 1272178210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So who needs pointers? < 1272178221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ Different \PASCAL s have slightly different conventions, and the present < 1272178222 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everybody, you just don't necessarily need to be able to twiddle them < 1272178222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@!@:PASCAL H}{\ph@> < 1272178222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :program expresses \TeX\ in terms of the \PASCAL\ that was < 1272178222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :available to the author in 1982. Constructions that apply to < 1272178222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this particular compiler, which we shall call \ph, should help the < 1272178223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reader see how to make an appropriate interface for other systems < 1272178224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Trivial subset. < 1272178224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if necessary. (\ph\ is Charles Hedrick's modification of a compiler < 1272178226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@^Hedrick, Charles Locke@> < 1272178230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the DECsystem-10 that was originally developed at the University of < 1272178232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hamburg; cf.\ {\sl SOFTWARE---Practice \AM\ Experience \bf6} (1976), < 1272178234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: TeX doesn't use a single pointer. < 1272178236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has memory pools, sure; of static size. < 1272178260 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISO 7185 was from around 1982 or 1983, it was just a formal version of classic Pascal (Jensen and Wirth book, circa 1975) < 1272178319 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"standard Pascal" didn't officially dictate how to use files, so a lot of stuff was implementation-defined < 1272178362 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was no modularization (see Modula-2 or extended Pascal) or units (TP, Delphi) < 1272178371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272178419 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the biggest proponent of "standard" (classic) Pascal these days is Scott Moore (of IP Pascal fame): http://www.standardpascal.org/ < 1272178423 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and before I forget < 1272178429 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wanted to know the most limited Pascal < 1272178447 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, definitely not PL/I, but PL/0 (from _Algorithms and Data Structures_) < 1272178484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right i think that is what i meant < 1272178498 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scott Moore even has source to the original CDC 6000 Pascal compiler (well, a later revision from '80s, anyways) < 1272178531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strictly speaking, what alise wants is the bit of PASCAL that WEB uses. Whatever that is. < 1272178549 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I read somewhere that Cowlishaw meant Rexx to be a easier-to-learn subset of PL/I < 1272178561 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1982 means ISO 7185 (standard) < 1272178574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, cleaned up a bit. < 1272178577 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost definitely, esp. since that was before Turbo Pascal hit < 1272178588 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TP isn't standard compliant, nor is Delphi < 1272178590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ok i actually mailed cliff gifford < 1272178596 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise alise alise alise are you there < 1272178598 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is important < 1272178599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sweet. he'll be devastated < 1272178601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: quite yesly < 1272178607 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let F be an endofunctor < 1272178615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1272178617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :letted < 1272178623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :letted < 1272178626 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An F-algebra is a pair with A an object and a : FA --> A. < 1272178631 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a standard PASCAL version of TeX" ... probably literally standard Pascal he meant here < 1272178641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: okay < 1272178643 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?????? dependent pair ?????? < 1272178646 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I wrote a Befunge-93 interpreter in Rexx yesterday ;-) < 1272178651 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... you're right < 1272178659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what the fuck, we've just discovered that type theory is category theory. < 1272178665 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1272178675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does oerjan's theory of synchronicity continually present us with new evidence? < 1272178679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY IS EVERYTHING EVERYTHING ELSE < 1272178684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY CAN'T SOME THINGS BE DEFINITELY NOT OTHER THINGS < 1272178693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe 1 = 0 < 1272178698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TRIVIALISM < 1272178700 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we just don't know it yet < 1272178707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: curry-howard-_lambek_ correspondence? < 1272178743 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"MESA" ... hmmm, rings a bell, must've inspired some famous language, but I can't remember which one < 1272178751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's an isomorphism to /one/ category, isn't it? < 1272178760 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly Modula-2 since Wirth spent a sabbatical at Xerox < 1272178761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're isomorphing type theory and the actual (meta?)theory of category theory < 1272178792 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there is a category of categories, and stuff < 1272178825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and different type systems correspond to different logics, so why not to different categories. < 1272178852 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems Knuth uses (used?) "ph" compiler from 1976 < 1272178861 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have little clue what i'm talking about on the category side, though. < 1272178867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: ph is 1980s extension of 1976 compiler i think < 1272178871 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION seems to be talking to himself and also interrupting the other conversation, bah
< 1272178875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also \ph expands to "PASCAL-h" or something in the typesetted version < 1272178885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes but consider < 1272178892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're saying "oh it's isomorphic to /one category/" < 1272178899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're ignoring category theory itself -- which IS a theory < 1272178903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we CAN reason about whole categories as objects < 1272178907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it turns out this is ~~ type theory! < 1272178923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: gnab is a hilarious name. and � is the perfect symbol < 1272178925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: and then i'm saying there is a category of _all_ categories (sometimes with a smallness requirement, but still) < 1272178934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, but that's still /within/ another theory < 1272178941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(category theory itself at the "top level") < 1272178969 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think that it sounds like Oberon (which excludes some of the rarer features of Pascal), but that isn't 100% easy to convert to (not that I can code in it either) < 1272178998 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define intuitionistic type theory naturally inside category theory < 1272179016 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe we're doing this all backwards? < 1272179030 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long story short: "standard" Pascal is pretty much ignored in favor of Delphi-ish versions (which let you do anything you want with pointers), extended Pascal is rare, and even ones that partially implement them aren't always fully compliant < 1272179059 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPC does not pretend to (want to) support any Pascal besides Borland < 1272179067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: seems so < 1272179084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yeah why do people hate purity < 1272179093 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU Pascal is better but tied to specific GCC versions < 1272179104 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not included in GCC source tree itself, only as patches < 1272179108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/933758.txt?key=lymvolzrld6dwjkryqmtxq < 1272179110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this calculates 4! = 24 < 1272179170 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"gubed", heh, now I get it ;-) < 1272179194 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks to my Befunge training < 1272179234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here sufficiently interested in redivider? I'd like to write a binary numbers "library" in it < 1272179238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since unary is... slow < 1272179299 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, okay it's not really ISO 7185, it claims to only use Jensen and Wirth with some extensions (e.g. default case, which wasn't officially added until extended circa 1988 or so) < 1272179313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: you mean TeX? < 1272179319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also uses dynamic files of some sort < 1272179354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1272179357 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to Scott Moore, Wirth always intended the header file names to be mapped to real files, but his CDC machine was so quirky, and they didn't need ten gazillion lines / files back then, so ... < 1272179359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :binary in redivider should be the wrong way around < 1272179368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in 001 = 4 < 1272179420 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272179430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1272179434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 101 -> 011 < 1272179442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the first digit is 0, obviously we flip it to 1 then return the rest untouched < 1272179445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's 1... < 1272179452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then obviously it must become 0 < 1272179473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the rest is incremented < 1272179508 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, he's using a few "extensions" that may or may not clash with reserved keywords of most Pascals < 1272179521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: interestingly enough nobody actually ever compiles the pascal < 1272179525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: they compile it to C (!) < 1272179531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, not a full-blown compiler < 1272179534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a simple "translator" < 1272179535 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU --extended-pascal would probably work < 1272179541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this stuff is used by tons of people every day... < 1272179555 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports "continue", "halt" (exit), "goto non_numeric_label", etc. < 1272179570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ: < 1272179570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /0/; "1" + /.*/ } < 1272179570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/; "0" + succ[/.*/] }. < 1272179571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works!! < 1272179578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best successor algorithm ever < 1272179601 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that Extended Pascal is extremely rare, only Prospero fully implemented it, I think, although GNU Pascal mostly supports it < 1272179622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Nice binary successor. < 1272179629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: reverse binary! < 1272179633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you feed it binary digits in /reverse/ order < 1272179641 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a form of endianness. < 1272179644 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still binary. < 1272179644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1272179645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1272179646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but funny < 1272179655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how it actually shows how the carrying works < 1272179669 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's fairly nice. < 1272179695 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could quite feasibly extend that to do reverse decimal arithmetic. :P < 1272179697 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, assumes ASCII < 1272179718 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Wirth's CDC used EBCDIC, as do many old IBM machines, but it's mostly ignored < 1272179725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: it doesn't assume ascii < 1272179731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it translates inputted/outputted text < 1272179740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just uses ascii internally... and also its own charset for some things < 1272179743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah but why bother? < 1272179744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Pascal, not your thing. :) < 1272179751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about pascal < 1272179758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Well then. < 1272179770 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-EBCDIC is a funny UTF. < 1272179810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If I was writing this for efficiency, I would do base 256. < 1272179818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because that's the max I can store in a character. < 1272179826 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what the CDC supported, but perhaps its keyboard was only 64 keys, can't remember < 1272179830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!slashes /1|/|0//0|/1//|/1/ 100111| < 1272179835 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yeah, that would be the best. < 1272179836 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :101000 < 1272179846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION whistles innocently
< 1272179849 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you don't have to type keywords in uppercase in Pascal, only Modula-[23] and Oberon-* require that) < 1272179851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But I'd have to hardcode every one. < 1272179863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Wake me up when it does infix->postfix :) < 1272179863 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you'd be writing a byte-based lookup table. < 1272179876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pred: < 1272179876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /0/; "0" } < 1272179876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/; "0" + /.*/ }. < 1272179878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just realised I can omit the base case < 1272179882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it /fails/ if you pass it 0! < 1272179883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome < 1272179922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why
< 1272179924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse: { x: /./; reverse[/.*/] + x }. < 1272179925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fails < 1272179925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1272179927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no "" case :P < 1272179972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? my succ doesn't work any more < 1272179982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it succs instead < 1272179996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1272179998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no empty string case < 1272180041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo | ./redivider binary.rd < 1272180041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100000000000000 < 1272180043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray! < 1272180051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to do addition and multiplication.. and then sleep it's 720am < 1272180073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is it has to be called ugly < 1272180075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add(m)[n] < 1272180080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because add(m,n) doesn't work so well < 1272180163 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extended Pascal also officially supports variable-length arrays, strings, readstr and writestr, etc. < 1272180196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wait, I need to scan both... < 1272180217 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"packed" (which you mentioned) was apparently to save precious RAM, also because the CDC had some odd word size < 1272180241 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, in the logs, somebody mentioned Algol < 1272180264 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mention it to fizzie, he showed me mooz's Befunge-93 interpreter in Algol-60 (check WayBack) ! < 1272180295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet < 1272180305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone want to figure out how to write binary addition in redivider? < 1272180343 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last:=first; {cf.\ Matthew 19\thinspace:\thinspace30} < 1272180343 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1272180347 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Biblical reference?? < 1272180372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last shall be the first? < 1272180411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first." < 1272180492 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo erjan < 1272180547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can't figure out thisx redivider error SO TIRED < 1272180567 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Since \PASCAL\ does not have a well-developed string < 1272180567 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mechanism" ... it has none! (until "extended") < 1272180581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :packed array [1..255] of char < 1272180596 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redevered < 1272180601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: ping < 1272180608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gonna ask him something bout the spec... < 1272180620 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1272180640 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, here is < 1272180640 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simple macro that computes the length of a string." ... again, extended Pascal to the rescue < 1272180645 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :built-in < 1272180655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: not portable enough for knuth < 1272180658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: you remember redivider? < 1272180659 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I mean a real "string" type, keyword < 1272180668 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I agree, but it does exist! < 1272180671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: why does p[q] hard fail if p soft fails? < 1272180676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add(m,n): < 1272180676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /0$/[n]; m } < 1272180676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { succ[add(m, pred[n])] }. < 1272180682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't write this because /0$/[n] hard fails < 1272180715 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's been too long. Could you give a link to the spec? < 1272180722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider < 1272180737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just getting re-into it: wrote fibonacci and factorial; now writing a "library" for reverse binary numbers < 1272180746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ is really pretty: < 1272180747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :succ: < 1272180747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /$/; "1" } < 1272180747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /0/; "1" + /.*/ } < 1272180747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/; "0" + succ[/.*/] }. < 1272180751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but addition is, alas, not so < 1272180756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one, i can't see how to make it work < 1272180791 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does have half a mind to (try to) write a Befunge-93 interpreter in Pascal
< 1272180817 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :already halfway started, but I was too dumb to finish correctly < 1272180865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the one program that doesn't get hurt by pascal's fixed-length strings :D < 1272180879 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you know Ada is Pascal-ish, included in GCC by default now < 1272180893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add(m,n): < 1272180894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /0/[m]; /0/[n]; "0" + add(m,n) } < 1272180894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /0/[n]; /1/[n]; "1" + add(m,n) } < 1272180894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/[m]; /0/[n]; "1" + add(m,n) } < 1272180894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/[m]; /1/[n]; "0" + add(m,succ[n]) }. < 1272180899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this worked it would be a nice binary adder < 1272180909 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ada83 was 7-bit only (from what I hear), hence why he probably couldn't consider it back then (plus expensive compilers) < 1272180911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Ada is way more anal-retentive than pascal < 1272180934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's Knuth, man; he programs correct MIX without fail. < 1272180939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he /made MIX up/! < 1272181003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just as a rule, Knuth is the man. < 1272181019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: and is there any way to coerce hard failures to soft failures? < 1272181021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, what to do? < 1272181160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey guys < 1272181166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just came up with an argument for the predecessor of 0 being 1 < 1272181210 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't the Romans lack understanding of 0? wasn't it a foreign concept? < 1272181219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that < 1272181220 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anywa < 1272181221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1272181235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider reverse binary strings i.e. 4 = 001 < 1272181247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the predecessor of 1, followed by some things, is 0, followed by some things; this is the no-carry case < 1272181250 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"reverse" :( < 1272181259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah yeah < 1272181266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the predecessor of 0, followed by some things, is 1, followed by the predecessor of some things. < 1272181281 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, that's the reason I'm sad < 1272181283 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even Hebrew writes numbers left to right (but still pronounced right to left) ... could be wrong, but I think that's what I read < 1272181285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now < 1272181300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider the number "0" < 1272181302 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It makes sense for Hebrews to write that way < 1272181305 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not Englishes < 1272181309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the predecessor is "1" plus the predecessor of some things < 1272181313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some things = "" < 1272181319 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Zero" as an actual number is a rather recent concept. < 1272181324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously the predecessor of an empty number -- considered as a recursive base case -- is the empty number < 1272181328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the predecessor of 0 is 1. < 1272181340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Q.E.D. :P < 1272181360 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It shows pretty *heavily* in Chinese numerals. < 1272181394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you consider the most significant bit of a number to repeat infinitely often from there, then that follows logically < 1272181411 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the 2-adic integer representation < 1272181421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the predecessor of 0000... would be 1111... < 1272181422 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :零 is 0 in Chinese numerals. The next Chinese numeral of similar complexity is 億, 100,000,000... < 1272181424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is infinity, zomg! < 1272181433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no, it's -1 < 1272181434 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh man I was reading about p-adics but... forgot it all < 1272181438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: howso < 1272181440 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.999999999 = 1? LOL < 1272181446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an infinite number of ones? < 1272181451 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 2's complement with infinite no. of bits < 1272181459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who said 2s complement? < 1272181463 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never said 2s complement < 1272181466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pure positive binary, man < 1272181470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the predecessor of 0 is infinity. < 1272181481 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think 11111111... is infinity < 1272181488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well 2's complement is really just 2-adics cut off at some bit length < 1272181489 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't make sense to me, at least < 1272181498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: not 11... < 1272181501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...1111111 < 1272181505 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1+1+1+1+1+... = -1/2 is a better infinity < 1272181529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's (1 * 2^0) + (1 * 2^1) + ... < 1272181538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := 2^0 + 2^1 + 2^3 + ... < 1272181546 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : In a short period of less than a year, two distinguished physicists, A. Slavnov and F. Yndurain, gave seminars in Barcelona, about different subjects. It was remarkable that, in both presentations, at some point the speaker addressed the audience with these words: 'As everybody knows, 1 + 1 + 1 + · · · = −1⁄2'. Implying maybe: If you do not know this, it is no use to continue listening.[1] < 1272181598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := infinity < 1272181673 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what, didn't two dudes invent calculus? same as two dudes deciphered the Rosetta stone, same as ... < 1272181698 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION didn't know that about the rosetta stone
< 1272181768 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some \PASCAL\ compilers do not implement non-local |goto| statements." ... not sure FPC does either < 1272181875 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"@ Here the author of \TeX\ apologizes" ... "@^Knuth, Donald Ervin@>" < 1272181965 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"help1("I'm broken. Please show this to someone who can fix can fix"); < 1272181965 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : end < 1272181966 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :else begin print_err("I can't go on meeting you like this"); < 1272181966 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@.I can't go on...@> < 1272181968 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : help2("One of your faux pas seems to have wounded me deeply...")@/ < 1272181972 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ("in fact, I'm barely conscious. Please fix it and try again.");" < 1272182016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... so if infinity=....11111 < 1272182017 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I will do anything (almost) for a new router. < 1272182025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by my algorithm its predecessor is .....00000 < 1272182030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ... the predecessor of infinity.. is 0 < 1272182081 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity doesn't equal ...11111!!! < 1272182089 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is blasphemus < 1272182135 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: successor you mean < 1272182135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.....1111 = (1*2^0)+(1*2^1)+... < 1272182146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := sum{n=0,inf} 2^n < 1272182148 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"with enough 36-bit < 1272182148 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :words you might be able to have |mem_max| as large as 262142, which is < 1272182148 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eight times as much memory as anybody had during the first four years of < 1272182148 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\TeX's existence." < 1272182152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you figure out the riemann sum thing for that < 1272182155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'll accept that < 1272182167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: no, because the predecessor of 1something is 0something < 1272182169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1272182171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the predecessor of infinity is < 1272182174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....111110 < 1272182184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is 2^1 + 2^2 + ... < 1272182186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := infinity < 1272182189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1272182190 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = -1 < 1272182208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DON'T BELIEVE YOU < 1272182212 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ill proe it < 1272182263 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = X so 1 + 2X = X <=> 1 + X = 0 <=> X = -1 < 1272182297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax < 1272182301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... dayum you slick < 1272182302 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fax < 1272182306 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHA < 1272182309 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x3 < 1272182324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's sum{n=0,inf} n^(3^n) < 1272182327 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good job fax < 1272182328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EH EH < 1272182329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOT YOU THERE < 1272182331 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :greeting yourself and all < 1272182359 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I cant' do finite integral of n^(3^n) :/ < 1272182385 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey augur I am mathing < 1272182386 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whats up < 1272182394 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compling mathing < 1272182394 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1272182399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's 8am i haven't slept what's up < 1272182399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1272182400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1272182409 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my clock says 6:59 am < 1272182438 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :25 years and my life is still < 1272182443 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to get up that great big hill < 1272182446 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooff hope < 1272182452 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for whatever that means < 1272182461 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.??? kate < 1272182462 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, no, for a destination < 1272182463 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1272182483 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax knows what im singing < 1272182485 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CHINA < 1272182485 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shes a faggot < 1272182487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 + 1 + 512 + 7625597484987 = X so 1 + somethingX = X <=> ? < 1272182487 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN MY HANDS < 1272182497 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shes sat in a group of faggots with a guiter and sang this song < 1272182499 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont deny it fax < 1272182508 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish :x < 1272182522 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1272182524 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you never went to like < 1272182531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a glbtqq youth group? < 1272182537 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no maybe I should < 1272182546 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how old are you again? < 1272182549 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21 < 1272182555 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too old < 1272182558 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;( < 1272182563 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're in the young adults group < 1272182568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NEVER TOO OLD FOR PAEDOPHILIA < 1272182578 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8D < 1272182580 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, you might like this song < 1272182580 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1272182589 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the lines is "and i try, oh my god do i try, in this institution" < 1272182590 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implying that alise is a faggot < 1272182600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cuts self
< 1272182606 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just in an institution < 1272182609 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tomorrow, anyway. < 1272182617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION cuts self some more
< 1272182621 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hugs alise
< 1272182634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1272182637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man i am tired < 1272182640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8am, haven't slept, should i sleep? < 1272182644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck i have no self control < 1272182647 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh, yes ;-) < 1272182648 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise no we need the finite integral of n^(3^n) < 1272182654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: do it then < 1272182662 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't even know if that is expresible in arithmetics... < 1272182674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Dude, I have forgotten to eat before. I think your situation is not quite as bad. < 1272182674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plug it into your al-jabr thing :-D < 1272182687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the very least you will *eventually* sleep. < 1272182689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah but i hate being tired; also i want to be awake for a while um... today < 1272182691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not tired < 1272182692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :before going back < 1272182693 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask alpha! < 1272182694 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so. yeah < 1272182701 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise just go to bed early < 1272182704 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tommorow < 1272182714 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll sleep long and it will get you uppin the morning < 1272182717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you try?) < 1272182753 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=integrate+x%5E%283%5Ex%29+dx < 1272182760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: finite integral. < 1272182761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no, see, /that/ is not an option because i am /tired/ right now < 1272182766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i want to be /awake/, for hours, today < 1272182768 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what alise < 1272182787 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=integrate+floor%28x^%283^x%29%29+dx < 1272182815 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finite integral? what? < 1272182820 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, even taking a small nap (not long, though) will recharge you < 1272182825 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set your alarm if you're that worried < 1272182833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck recharging; I have to sleep for hours or I fail < 1272182840 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ditto < 1272182850 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i sleep for even a tiny bit when im really tired im fucked < 1272182852 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just fucked < 1272182854 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget it man < 1272182869 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recharging is a lie < 1272182884 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the truth is that when you go to sleep you die < 1272182884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A LIE < 1272182887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1272182887 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1272182890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FOREVER < 1272182894 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and god rewrites the world to makes things set up correctly < 1272182897 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then revives you < 1272182898 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a little piece of me dies every day < 1272182903 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can take a really long time sometimes < 1272182920 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why if you try to sleep up a tiny bit when you've been up for a long time, he fucking stomps you < 1272182940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have never existed before this moment. all your memories before this very instant have been planted in your head. the universe replaces itself with a random state every single planck time; this was a coincidence. one in billions. trillions. it will go now. you think you have read this whole line but you have actually just finished reading it. the memory of the rest of a line was, again, implanted by chaos. goodbye. < 1272182950 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's his way of asying: Look I have a LOT of shit to do, and you are fucking it up < 1272183003 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1272183011 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there any SCI-FI set in 100 dimensions? < 1272183015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1272183017 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise ... you were wrong: < 1272183018 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :var p:pointer; {the node currently under inspection} < 1272183018 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any bigger number of dimensions than 3D < 1272183019 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@!q:pointer; {the node physically after node |p|} < 1272183019 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1272183025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: aha look up the definition of pointer < 1272183027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not a pascal pointer < 1272183031 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: 100 dimensional scifi?! < 1272183032 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAT < 1272183034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is an integer index into a static array < 1272183034 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1272183035 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am curious about peoples speculations on large numbers of dimensions < 1272183049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Parts of Fine Structure. < 1272183049 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none of the 4D sci-fi I have read has satisfied me < 1272183060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qntm.org/structure < 1272183061 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq oh damn - okay ty < 1272183063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 100 dimensions? < 1272183074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Significantly greater than 3. < 1272183079 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great < 1272183080 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1272183087 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1272183161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Man* the intro to that makes more sense after you've read it once. < 1272183221 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1272183223 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to see this < 1272183232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fine structure? < 1272183234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will read it sometime. < 1272183235 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i.imgur.com/0eWnm.png < 1272183250 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know in type theory all data types are introduction/elimination < 1272183254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You haven't read everything by Sam Hughes? D: < 1272183266 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272183275 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272183315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hey, I'm old school. I read the Ed stories. < 1272183320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes < 1272183423 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4urhaskell < 1272183423 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> "sup dawg, we herd u liek Haskell so we put a recurshin in ur recurshin so you can " ++ cycle "recurse while you " < 1272183427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO FUCKING TIRED < 1272183428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sfdlgjs < 1272183440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY DO I DO THIS TO MYSELF < 1272183445 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do what < 1272183452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stay up like this < 1272183457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: ping < 1272183458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: ping < 1272183459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Got to sleep, God wants to reboot < 1272183460 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call my version of haskell either: < 1272183465 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell' or Hasceline < 1272183474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell' is taken < 1272183474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Those were awesome. < 1272183479 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hascaline < 1272183483 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Still looking at it, and trying to make it work... < 1272183487 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No it's not < 1272183487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Would make a great movie. < 1272183489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: ah :P < 1272183493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: yes, Haskell Prime < 1272183503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: When I first got into Sam Hughes, after I had read a few random snippets I went through and read all the stuff on his site in chronological order. < 1272183507 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yeah that project collapsed from it's own weight < 1272183515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: uhh it got released < 1272183516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as haskell 2010 < 1272183517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. All the stories. < 1272183524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other stuff, I have read massive chunks of. < 1272183529 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ... that's called Haskell 2010 :P < 1272183545 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Yes, that's the first bit of results of the Haskell Prime process. < 1272183550 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1272183566 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell++, Haskell 2.0, Haskell-0x, Haskeller, Haskellwilltravel < 1272183589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You are not alone. Nor are you rare, nor even unusual; you're so common as to be insignificant. You are small, weak, and stupid. Your lives are meaningless and shorter than an eyeblink. You have achieved nothing. On the universal scale you are nothing. < 1272183589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : This much we share already. < 1272183589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Now let us share the rest. < 1272183598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ one of my favourite quotes; from the Ed stories < 1272183628 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it mean "Now let us share the rest."? < 1272183638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a first contact message < 1272183686 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :category theory seems too good to be true < 1272183707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JUST LIKE LOVE. < 1272183725 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: beyond < 1272183726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: imo, the language should be changed so that this works: < 1272183728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add(m,n): < 1272183728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /0/[m]; /0/[n]; "0" + add(m,n) } < 1272183728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /0/[n]; /1/[n]; "1" + add(m,n) } < 1272183728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/[m]; /0/[n]; "1" + add(m,n) } < 1272183728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/[m]; /1/[n]; "0" + add(m,succ[n]) }. < 1272183742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., p[q] soft fails if p soft fails; and also, q is modified to be the new input string of p < 1272183751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess "q is modified" can't happen < 1272183752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1272183820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION yawns; so much
< 1272184027 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh this is a new one < 1272184028 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: < 1272184073 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :set: sigma/R, intros: [M]_R : sigma/R (for M:sigma), elimination: pick x from P in Q : rho (for P : sigma/R, Q(x):rho where x:sigma) < 1272184108 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I think I was reading it wrong and it's less amusing than I'd thought < 1272184114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't get it < 1272184354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am so tirred < 1272184363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: tell me more category theory correspondences < 1272184374 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all I know so far < 1272184377 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything relating to Prop/proofs? < 1272184382 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm finding out more as I go < 1272184394 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well did you know that STLC corresponds to a CCC < 1272184400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272184404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anything relating to Prop/proofs? < 1272184422 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i know of yet < 1272184448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any more fun related functions other than f-algebras and gnab? < 1272184467 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well < 1272184474 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://pastebin.com/k99UVidS < 1272184484 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Category theorists will often think of the ring R and the category R as two different representations of the same thing, so that a particularly perverse category theorist might define a ring as a preadditive category with exactly one object < 1272184505 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember what I was saying about proving x0 = 0 ==> 0x = 0 using oppposite category < 1272184506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: ouch. < 1272184508 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's how < 1272184512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add(m,n): < 1272184513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /0/[m]; /0/[n]; "0" + add(m,n) } < 1272184513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /0/[n]; /1/[n]; "1" + add(m,n) } < 1272184513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/[m]; /0/[n]; "1" + add(m,n) } < 1272184513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/[m]; /1/[n]; "0" + add(m,succ[n]) }. < 1272184519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely it would be nicer to make this work? ;-) < 1272184533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that add hard fails no? [n] < 1272184546 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/0/[m] won't work, since the regex isn't allowed to soft fail. < 1272184550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and, just a question, why the .* clause in succ?) < 1272184561 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1272184562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: even if it did soft fail it'd hard fail < 1272184564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to []s definition < 1272184618 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :".. we talked a logic /over/ a category. Categorically this will correspond to one category, capturing the logic, being /fibred over/ another category, captuing the type theory" < 1272184679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: so what would be bad about making [] soft fail? < 1272184747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: what does mx represent? < 1272184751 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/Mitchell-Benabou+language < 1272184774 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: mx = tail of m < 1272184783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The N-Category Cafe! < 1272184788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: ah. I usually call that rest :P < 1272184804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: so, I guess add can not really be defined as a two-argument function < 1272184805 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://pastebin.com/sJe3qDXr <-- little easier to follow < 1272184805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1272184811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i think functions in redivider are a wart < 1272184821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should just have multiple inputs or something < 1272184886 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last one uses two inputs for add. In the first one, I used the input stream as an input. < 1272184942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right you are < 1272184954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is more useful do you think? I was just doing two args cuz add(x)[y] looks ugly < 1272185006 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add(x)[y] vs add(x,y) and add(x,/.*/) vs add(x) < 1272185024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1272185032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just asking for your personal opinion :P < 1272185065 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Hey! Listen! < 1272185066 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add(x,y) is more readable, and add(x)[y] is more practical. < 1272185117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add(x)[y] then < 1272185165 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i think you should make a language with strictly monadic functions. :o < 1272185174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :define monadic < 1272185187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: hmm... if I'm having functions as ugly as add, I should do more digits < 1272185191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monadic, unary < 1272185193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, 256 :-) < 1272185193 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing < 1272185197 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not nomad monads < 1272185200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: that's called the lambda calculus < 1272185208 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i mean truly strictly monadic < 1272185216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is truly strictly monadic < 1272185219 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LC is monadic, but its higher order so you can fact polyadicity < 1272185230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a tuple type you have already lost < 1272185234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean a language where you dont get higher order enabled polyadicity < 1272185234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even the naturals < 1272185242 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no tuples! < 1272185253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goedel((x,y)) = ToUnaryOnes(Goedel(x)) ~ 0 ~ ToUnaryOnes(Goedel(y)) < 1272185260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(~ is binary digit concatenation) < 1272185276 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no pattern matching either < 1272185277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: are you sure add cannot be prettier? < 1272185306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm dreading implementing subtraction now :-) < 1272185309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and multiplication... eek < 1272185319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all user defined functions must be strictly monadic, no pattern matching, and the only non-monadic things are metasyntactic :x < 1272185322 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be able to use { regex; ... } as an if-statement, you have to do it that way. < 1272185370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: But, is there an actual reason [] should not soft-fail? < 1272185398 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe so that it could work on streams? < 1272185552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1272185619 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Soft fail utilizes a single fallback point. Hard fail, the program would have to back-track to a point before the fallback point. < 1272185667 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On a succesful match, the fallback point is moved up. < 1272185678 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272185706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so would a category theory programming language allow you to define and use toposes? < 1272185714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: Fair enough. < 1272185724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd be happier with that response if your interp actually lazily read input :-) < 1272185744 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1272185863 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck I am tired < 1272185892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: me too < 1272185897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: I dread to define subtraction now... < 1272185905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here I thought redivider was the prettiest language I'd ever seen! < 1272185945 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's good at some things... < 1272185960 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arithmetic is not one of them < 1272186068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mind boggles even just trying to think of how to write subtraction... also i am tired < 1272186206 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you write it by turning 3-2 into +++-- < 1272186215 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then get rid of "+-" --> "" < 1272186216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no :P < 1272186231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm doing binary because unary is slow, that's the point :P < 1272186345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { m: binary; /\+/; n: binary; reverse[add(m)[n]] } < 1272186346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { m: binary; /\-/; n: binary; reverse[sub(m)[n]] } < 1272186350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: this hard fails if I do - why :( < 1272186354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how am i supposed to code it < 1272186412 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to check one thing at the time, and branch. < 1272186412 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/constructive+mathematics < 1272186423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: I'm not sure /how/ you branch < 1272186434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, why don't blocks soft fail if parts soft fail? < 1272186503 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: They soft fail if the _first_ line soft fails, otherwise they hard fail. < 1272186504 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: { m: binary; { /\+/; n: binary; reverse[add(m)[n]] } | { /-/; n: binary; reverse[sub(m)[n]] } } < 1272186526 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this restriction there? it looks nothing at all like regular bnf when put under that restriction < 1272186561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, yeah, backtracking; but PEG parsers allow a ridiculous amount of that and they work fine. < 1272186593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, my subtracter has a bug! < 1272186695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh; in my now-fixed subtracter, 1-x is the successor of x, and 1-2 is 3. < 1272186709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-3 is 2. < 1272186723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-4 is ... wait, what? 5. < 1272186730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-5 is... 4. < 1272186741 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-6 is 7. < 1272186751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-7 is 6. < 1272186765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So wait, 1-n is n+1 if n is even, and n-1 if n is odd. < 1272186766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1272186790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: does your adder ever leave trailing 0s? < 1272186807 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: only if the input has trailing zeros < 1272186815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good. < 1272186819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my subtracter does it sometimes :( < 1272186918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2-3 = 1. < 1272186921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2-4 = 6. < 1272186931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2-5 = 7. < 1272186941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2-6 = 4. < 1272186946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2-7 = 5. < 1272186954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool, it's "splitting" the naturals. < 1272186994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1000-x is x-1000, strangely. < 1272187014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except 1000-10000 = 11000. < 1272187039 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So 8 - 16 = 24. < 1272187238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :removing the rule 1x - = 1x fixed it. < 1272187243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :removing the rule 1x - = 1x fixed it. < 1272187244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1272187249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it didn't < 1272187279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: why does your succ function do /.*/ btw? I forgot < 1272187283 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272187339 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: To store the remaining input, before you change it to something else with (...)[n] < 1272187360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION runs into a problem
< 1272187381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(reverse binary ahead:) 0x - 1y = 1(x+y) < 1272187386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not right, is it? < 1272187430 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x - y = x + (-y) = x + (~y + 1) < 1272187464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er right < 1272187519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x - 0y = 0(x-y) < 1272187520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x - 0y = 1(x-y) < 1272187520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x - 1y = 1(x-succ(y))? < 1272187520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x - 1y = 0(x-y) < 1272187718 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1272187721 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x = 2*x < 1272187724 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x = 1+2*x < 1272187767 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 2*x - 1+2*y = 2*(x - y) - 1 = 2*(x - y - 1/2) < 1272187807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes yes very nice < 1272187855 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't really help.. < 1272187929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/anafunctor < 1272188088 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's interesting < 1272188149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /0/; rest: /.*/; < 1272188150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ( { /0/; "0" + sub(/.*/)[rest] } < 1272188150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | { /1/; "1" + sub(/.*/)[rest] } < 1272188150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : )[n] } < 1272188152 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is n-0 < 1272188155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is certainly right. < 1272188165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 0-1? < 1272188168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1272188174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we need to subtract one more than we usually would from the rest < 1272188181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /1/; rest: /.*/; < 1272188181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ( { /0/; "1" + sub(/.*/)[succ[rest]] } < 1272188182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | { /1/; "0" + sub(/.*/)[rest] } < 1272188182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : )[n] } < 1272188183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks correct to me < 1272188227 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why does it calculate 10011 - 1101 = 1100? it's 110 < 1272188282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: wait, HTF is your add correct? < 1272188297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has 1x+0y = 1(x+y+1) < 1272188308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nnnooo it doesn't < 1272188310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i added that < 1272188310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1272188334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: your add is interesting; it swaps each time < 1272188343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x+0y = 0(y+x) < 1272188355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x+0y = 1(y+x) < 1272188365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : +0y = 0y < 1272188374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x+1y = 1(y+x) < 1272188388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x+1y = 0(y+x+1) < 1272188392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x+ = 1x < 1272188459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha! < 1272188465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fiddles with stuff
< 1272188522 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272188547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x-0y = 0(x-y) < 1272188548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x-0y = 1(x-y) < 1272188548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0x-1y = 1(x-(y+1)) < 1272188548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1x-1y = 0(x-y) < 1272188548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : x- = x < 1272188548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 < 1272188549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are correct < 1272188554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why do they compute wrongly? < 1272188605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what type T:*->* has |T A| = Fib(|A|)? < 1272188654 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a strange sort of tree < 1272188704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :precisely! < 1272188707 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Fib n where Leaf :: Fib 1 ; Branch :: Fib a -> Fib b -> Fib (a + b) ... < 1272188719 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that is totally useless because I just repeated what you said < 1272188725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not *->*; that is nat->* :P < 1272188727 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's wrong as well < 1272188748 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data Fib n where Leaf :: Fib 1 ; Branch :: Fib n -> Fib n -> Fib (S n) < 1272188753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider T := A | B | C | D < 1272188755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|T| = 4 < 1272188757 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no that's still wrong isn\t it < 1272188768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore |FibTree T| = 3 (!) < 1272188784 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohhhh < 1272188791 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's different < 1272188805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :T := Fin 12 < 1272188808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|T| = 4 < 1272188813 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|FibTree T| = 144 < 1272188843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is < 1272188846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is FibTree's inductive definition? < 1272188871 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + (1) + (1 + (1)) + (1 + (1) + (1 + (1))) < 1272188887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no; for general T < 1272188921 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was powers of two :/ < 1272188928 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't do this alise < 1272188997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FibTree 0 == 0 < 1272188998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so all constructors of FibTree require a value of T at some point < 1272188998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FibTree 1 == 1 < 1272188998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so a non-base-case value requires two distinct values of T < 1272188998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FibTree (n+2) == FibTree (n+1) + FibTree n < 1272188999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so ?? < 1272189121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the really hard bit is e.g. < 1272189130 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|FibTree (A | B | C)| = 2 < 1272189138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can't have Foo : T -> FibTree T < 1272189351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a,b) --> (b,(a,b)) < 1272189354 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the recurrence < 1272189368 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's expressible < 1272189422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrrr < 1272189427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isn't this binary subtraction working < 1272189615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to enslave MizardX to write binary algorithms all day
< 1272189680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not, but /me just asks MizardX -- the new resident Redivider expert -- how feasible e thinks a self-interpreter would be < 1272189686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have to execute while parsing, right? < 1272189699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but redivider programs can reference later terms... so I'd have to do some sort of awful AST thing < 1272189751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Laurent Vogel complains that handling of newlines is not well defined in the specifications and proposes the following convention: when a string is sent to the output stream, no newline is printed at the end, except if the string is empty, in which case a newline is all that is printed. < 1272189753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :�rjan Johansen complains that input is a lousy hack that has no way of handling arbitrary strings (think Wikipedia:code injection here) and no well-defined behavior on end of file. This makes an otherwise powerful language useless for implementing I/O-supporting programs properly in. " < 1272189922 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1272190363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imma implement slashes in redivider < 1272190375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derivider would be a nice name for a redivider implementation < 1272190380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quotient a nice name for a self-interp < 1272190478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, too lazy to do slashes. < 1272190691 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey fax < 1272190698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Onoz ;; implement this. it involves proof manipulation < 1272190859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :morning < 1272191089 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lament < 1272191335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why this doesn't work
< 1272191341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main : { /$/; "" } | /./ + main. < 1272191509 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise alise wonders why alise < 1272191514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1272191782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, you need to handle newlines < 1272191783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: ping < 1272191817 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1272191910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: /.*/ and /./ don't match \n < 1272191915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so cat has to be < 1272191917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :main: < 1272191917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : { /$/; "\n" } < 1272191917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /./ + main } < 1272191917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| { /\n/ + main }. < 1272191923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feature or bug? I think it is inheriting Python's behaviour < 1272191991 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. [^\S\s] or (?s). would both match newlines < 1272192025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, feature or bug? :P < 1272192043 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. It just is. < 1272192098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. :P < 1272192764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's often an option to the regex eggine to make . match newlines too. For Java, the Pattern.DOTALL flag; for Perl, the "s" (single-line) modifier; for Python, the either the re.S or re.DOTALL flag. < 1272192782 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the defaultish behaviour is no-newlines-for-dot for all three. < 1272194213 0 :aschuele1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1272194235 0 :aschueler!~alec@host86-131-220-188.range86-131.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272194560 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272194568 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272195138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so < 1272195204 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what < 1272195222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: category theory < 1272195247 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/ralf.hinze/SSGIP10/Notes.pdf < 1272195277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that? < 1272195369 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catagary thary natas < 1272195373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1272195467 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kukuh < 1272195484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so your summing thing, what's 2^3^4^5^... < 1272195491 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?????? < 1272195505 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't do that it's too hard < 1272195511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( but i wanna know! < 1272195519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's the answer to all dependent category theory magic < 1272195523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encoded in base 10 < 1272195540 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it < 1272195563 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ is weird < 1272195566 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't trust it < 1272195571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's total though < 1272195573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever you say < 1272195618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I assume you distrust (n^^m := {n^n^...} m exponentiations) even less then < 1272195619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1272195620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more then < 1272195630 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272195635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/2009/10/cantors-diagonalization-proof-in-coq.html just to check you realise it is /much/ simpler to prove than this < 1272195646 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to do diagonalisation so literally < 1272195651 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I don't know a simpler way < 1272195668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lemme prove it; it's on my other HD < 1272195671 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wrote that very quickly because I wanted to have written it < 1272195745 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HD ? is that gordi laughing? < 1272195756 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :orr the lazer guy from X-man < 1272195786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hard Drive < 1272195787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1272195956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: here is the much shorter -- and more general -- proof: http://pastie.org/933892.txt?key=esshdwnk4lab3etv0lehta < 1272196094 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1272196113 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is mine so long... < 1272196159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: because you translated cantor way too literally :P < 1272196191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual (\x. !magic x x) construction is due to oerjan; though it's "obvious" once you've seen it < 1272196238 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the diagonal < 1272196242 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :negated < 1272196250 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you think of it? < 1272196257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be oerjan? < 1272196269 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean conceptually < 1272196270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but actually I think we can explain this proof without making reference to a single "diagonal" < 1272196292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, it's very similar to Russell's Paradox. < 1272196295 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that IS the diagonal < 1272196301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :magic x x = x in x. < 1272196307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!(magic x x) = x is not in x. < 1272196318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is (\x. !(magic x x)) a member of itself? < 1272196351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the issue is that surj lets us hide unrestricted comprehension like that in a perfectly innocent natural, where we can't "see" it < 1272196355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course that's only one view of the proof < 1272196385 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish there was a button to ignore everyones messages from everyone else when i go to sleep < 1272196389 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i didn't have to read logs < 1272196403 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turn off your computer < 1272196453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so... I really need to find a way to unify computer algebra systems and dependent type theory < 1272196468 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise you already know what it is < 1272196476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I? < 1272196483 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent type theory < 1272196522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dependent type theory doesn't really let you manipulate expressions structurally with free variables. < 1272196577 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quote them < 1272196599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: define quote < 1272196658 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tttttttttttttttt < 1272196756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1272196787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well? < 1272196818 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272196834 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW 2 TURn YOUTUBE inTO MP3? < 1272196898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you going to answer my question or... < 1272196905 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realized < 1272196908 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 = 1 mod 2 < 1272196912 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEENCN < 1272196915 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1 * -1 = -1 < 1272196917 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!!!!!!! < 1272197008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you could just give me a simple answer and i would understand you know < 1272197211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: or not. < 1272197249 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1272197937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome, thusly.org isn't registered < 1272198009 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" turn off your computer" the problem isn't that i somehow can't not read the logs, i just don't want you people to have shared conversations i haven't read < 1272198356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: it's ok just stay awake forever < 1272198469 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i need my 13 hour beauty sleep < 1272198474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err try more like 15 < 1272198496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was 22:30 - 13:30 or something < 1272198510 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe something completely different, who knows < 1272198574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so what do you mean by quoting < 1272198624 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :manipulate the expressions as data < 1272198642 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encode them in a negative integer < 1272198890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helpful < 1272198913 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-142-139.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1272199365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi hiato < 1272199474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi hi hiato < 1272199495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi lim n->inf ( hi)^(n)ato < 1272199749 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww alise, you're so adorable :D < 1272199753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Emacs Lisp. Wow...so this is what forethought, design and programming-in-the-large look like" <- HAHAHAHAHAHA# < 1272199786 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hai alise < 1272199800 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't get a nick hitight there for some reason < 1272199814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait hiato is the pascaller guy isn't he? oh the synchronicity < 1272199826 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is he? < 1272199889 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he's trying to put his shadowy past behind him < 1272199910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272199920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we - well, mostly I - were talking about minimalist pascal before < 1272199928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a la TeX; ftp://ftp.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/systems/knuth/dist/tex/tex.web < 1272199930 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooh < 1272199999 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh - a la tex <-> a latex < 1272200000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most advanced mathematical typesetter, and one of the most bug-free pieces of software, is written in a dialect of Pascal used by a circa-1982 compiler, and avoids the use of pointers, set types, enumerated scala types, and only uses var parameters for files. < 1272200001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*scalar < 1272200003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272200008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It pretty much avoids /everything/. It has a "pointer" type, but it's just an index into a global static array. < 1272200019 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1272200050 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is actually pretty esoteric < 1272200065 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least compared to what pascal is today < 1272200086 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION investigates
< 1272200133 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1272200141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Note that the intermingled TeX is the documentation; per Knuth's WEB system. < 1272200144 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a sort of prolonged sense < 1272200154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ignore everything that doesn't look like Pascal, except some lines which are automagically translated to Pascal from some other form. < 1272200161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, be prepared to crossreference. < 1272200164 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noted < 1272200171 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, and so it has begun < 1272200173 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, brb to read tex source? :P or something else < 1272200193 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272201170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ping < 1272201174 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1272201275 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: brb for food < 1272201281 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now to read sour:e < 1272201290 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/:/c/ < 1272201336 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: are there any docs for the "WEB" lang? < 1272201363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1272201368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not just a one-use thing < 1272201387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: basically half of it is TeX, half of it is Pascal, and epsilon of it is some sort of macro-thing that i'm not sure if it compiles to pascal or not < 1272201401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: your best bet is likely to typeset the WEB source to get the documentation and source typeset as a TeX document. < 1272201430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, I have been unable to find a WEB distribution for a modern computer; all I can find is its C-based relative CWEB. < 1272201436 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, I guess < 1272201445 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1272201462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first published literate programming environment was WEB, introduced by Donald Knuth in 1981 for his TeX typesetting system; it uses Pascal as its underlying programming language and TeX for typesetting of the documentation. The complete commented TeX source code was published in Knuth's TeX: The program, volume B of his 5-volume Computers and Typesetting. Knuth had privately used a literate programming system called DOC as early as 1979. He was inspir < 1272201462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed by the ideas of Pierre-Arnoul de Marneffe[12]. The free CWEB, written by Knuth and Silvio Levy, is WEB adapted for C and C++, runs on most operating systems and can produce TeX and PDF documentation. < 1272201468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am trying to find a WEB distribution now. < 1272201489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Failing all that, the hint is that stuff can include other sections; the macro things are obvious when you see them, and text and \ stuff is TeX; things that look like Pascal, are. < 1272201503 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm, interesting that this pascal works sans assignments, or at least casting of 'types' in one < 1272201526 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, copy that < 1272201528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX nowadays is compiled by using web2c, which translates the WEB/Pascal source to C. < 1272201541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses assignments, just not casts in them yeah < 1272201605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: An awful lot of the TeX source and its conventions are so that it runs giving strictly the same results no matter /what/ the input for all environments you can imagine. < 1272201611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a bit idiosyncratic in its minimalism. < 1272201711 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm beginiing to see that, though, I'm more impressed with how archaic the implementation language is for what must be one of *the* most reliable and bug free systems < 1272201750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! Of course nowadays the younguns use pdfTeX which I think has more C bits to it maybe? and even XeTeX which I have no idea what the hell it is. < 1272201767 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never heard of that last one < 1272201775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if you run tex(1) with the intention of getting a .dvi out of it, you're running something compiled from C translated from 80s restricted Pascal. < 1272201794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: It's basically a merger of TeX and Unicode + "modern font techologies" < 1272201798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I don't know how the code is done. < 1272201884 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and heh, younings? Getting a tad above yourself there :P But yeah, this is, well I must say strange. I know their intention was not performance, but surely there were better choices, even back in the 80's (?) < 1272201908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their? This is almost entirely the work of the single demigod Knuth. :-) < 1272201926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, C wasn't really so portable or standardised then, I imagine. < 1272201936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pascal was pretty much the only other language... < 1272201943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And his WEB system was already built to use Pascal. < 1272201946 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :added lol having just watched clash of the titans < 1272201953 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I guess < 1272201958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, TeX isn't even very slow. < 1272201971 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and tex in forth would've been too cool lo exist < 1272201973 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to < 1272201987 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yes, not really < 1272202022 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the speed thing that is. Eh, my concentration is wavering. Must. Mono. Task. < 1272202067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually Knuth still writes his programs in WEB's son CWEB. < 1272202080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're like nobody elses... < 1272202088 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reall,? Wait, is this knuth of up arrow fame? < 1272202105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes... and The Art of Computer Programming fame. < 1272202107 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Graham number < 1272202110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And oh so many things. < 1272202112 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1272202124 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v. v. v. impressive in that case < 1272202140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1272202183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and also the Knuth�Morris�Pratt algorithm. < 1272202186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the Knuth shuffle. < 1272202212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the guy who popularised big-O notation for computer algorithms. < 1272202224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Safe to say... Knuth is a god. < 1272202284 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KNUTZ < 1272202291 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always felt that the more you know about somethieg (In this case maths), the less you know about everything else. What was it? Academics are people who know more and more about less and less until they know nearly everything about nothing. or some such. But, I guess I never explored the comp sci side of him, in terms of practical and implemented stuff - as opposed th theory < 1272202322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least the nothing that is mathematics is a very interesting and beautiful nothing. < 1272202324 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, except physics < 1272202338 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people who know physics seem to know a lot and be quite sane and clever < 1272202359 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, dont get me wrong, I wranna be an academic, but that is still a roughly accurate vew in my opinion < 1272202368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I note that a lot more mathematicians believe in God than do scientists. < 1272202376 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: heh, that's why I wanna go into astro phys < 1272202384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The natural numbers, they're God. Close as you'll get to a formal definition. < 1272202390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Physics and the like are much more concrete, finite, etc. < 1272202404 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm, interesting view < 1272202408 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't equate finitism with atheism < 1272202425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I'm making analogies and hypotheses. < 1272202427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm allowed. < 1272202441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm pretty sure /any/ reasonable definition of God includes an inkling of the infinite. < 1272202450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So someone who is truly, /truly/ a finitist to the bone would be an atheist. < 1272202457 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1272202464 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't I just say... < 1272202464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm an infinitist and strongly disbelieve in God. < 1272202466 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah. < 1272202467 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, but, I do agree that finitness+rigidity and friends and god and so on anre not mutually excl < 1272202477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I don't avoid saying things just because you don't want me to... < 1272202486 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise yeah but URgh < 1272202492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: what is god that is not infinite? < 1272202496 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was not telling you "don't say this" < 1272202506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Well, give me a reason for not equating the two. < 1272202511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only mean very strong finitism, you understand. < 1272202515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A philosophy transcending mathematics. < 1272202517 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise, no less or more a god in my view < 1272202519 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god = infinity is just idiocy < 1272202527 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like saying 666 = the devil < 1272202529 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean really < 1272202532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not what I said. < 1272202533 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just crazy < 1272202541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never said that. < 1272202544 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey I am doing analogies now < 1272202570 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, this is a waste of time since obviously God doesn't exist. < 1272202580 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh. At the mention of the word god people start breaking. But, this is isnteresting. < 1272202587 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: obvious? < 1272202591 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise how can you say that is obvious, it is not even true < 1272202601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I knew that would provoke you! < 1272202604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Don't worry, I don't actually believe it's obvious. < 1272202606 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God exists and I can prove it < 1272202606 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I'd be careful of making that a fact < 1272202614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But fax is so sure that God exists and uses "atheist" as an insult, it's funny. < 1272202615 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watch a plant grow: You have witnessed it < 1272202627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, nice one, Anselm of Canterbury. < 1272202628 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: heh, no worries < 1272202635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That even tops the "I imagined it; it's awesome; so it exists" one. < 1272202652 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: proof enough for ou perhaps < 1272202659 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you < 1272202668 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you just going to call me a famous italian monk or will you try and refute my argument? :) < 1272202679 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, you don't buy this? < 1272202682 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and throfgh his sarcasm, alise is merely saying the same < 1272202691 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: afriad not < 1272202698 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrmm < 1272202724 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you have an outdated definition of God that means some kind of conscious being which listens to people when they prey to win the lotterly < 1272202736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Plants grow => God exists" simply does not follow in any sense. Maybe you meant "Plants grow; plants growing is wonderous; I perceive God as the generalised-'growing' nature of things; therefore God exists". < 1272202748 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise no not at al < 1272202750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is very, very close to pantheism -- a concept which is atheism, just with names changed. < 1272202796 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. in fact, I take prayer as proof of man's interpretation of an ideal god and the want for such a being, but def not it's existence < 1272202807 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: haha < 1272202815 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, I'm saying /that/ stuff is BS < 1272202871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, this is pointless. The only way to convince a reasoned atheist to become religious is programming; the only way to make an atheist out of a reasoned religious person is deprogramming. < 1272202890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unreasoned religious people can of course be atheist-ised, and impressionable atheists who haven't thought about it much can be made religious too. < 1272202892 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: other way around < 1272202894 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I do believe, however, that should there be god(s) there are some fundemental criteria for their/it's comprehendable existence, with rigid tests < 1272202902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Yes, thank you for inserting your personal opinion. < 1272202907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew you would take the terms perjoratively. < 1272202911 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I just did that because you did it :P < 1272202919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't think of better terms. So there. < 1272202923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we're clearly both on the reasoned end. < 1272202931 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato, it's easy to test my theory, just look at a sunrise < 1272202932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we're not going to try and (de)program each other. < 1272202936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So let's just stop now. < 1272202946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And give up with your fucking "the universe is beautiful GOD EXISTS" non-sequiturs. Please. < 1272202966 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's not about beauty < 1272202974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember when I said let's stop talking about this? < 1272202993 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: in the name of a reasonable conversation I object. So long as this is not offeding anyone, the fact that there can be no changing of views shold not stop a coversation < 1272203014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this is just degenerating into a flamewar, from an irrelevant tangent at that. < 1272203022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's keep the peace and talk about things we can have constructive discussions about. < 1272203025 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't call it a flamewar < 1272203035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know my personality. It will be one soon :) < 1272203040 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1272203044 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't want to say that :P < 1272203067 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But ok, I digress. Back to Pascal < 1272203127 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a cellphone IRC client? < 1272203139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For what cellphone? < 1272203140 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in Java nonsense < 1272203141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are countless. < 1272203143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1272203151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many. < 1272203153 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome < 1272203155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=java+mobile+irc+client&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-GB:unofficial&client=firefox-a < 1272203156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pick one < 1272203161 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1272203164 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1272203211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, you know, 20 < 1272203236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1272203242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder, I wonder, how to self-interpret Redivider. < 1272203248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would help if it had... data structures; at all. < 1272203257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it does, they just have to be strings. < 1272203258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Tcl! :P < 1272203285 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is fax religious? < 1272203304 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1272203306 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272203314 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm aatheist < 1272203324 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1272203333 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just kidding) < 1272203340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is fax religious? < 1272203340 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Disconnected < 1272203344 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (just kidding) < 1272203351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he certainly is if he believes God exists. < 1272203351 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoooosh < 1272203354 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :14:35 < fax> hiato, you don't buy this? < 1272203355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite simple. < 1272203360 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 14:35 < fax> hiato, you don't buy this? < 1272203364 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:48 < alise> 14:35 < fax> hiato, you don't buy this? < 1272203370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 12:48 < alise> 14:35 < fax> hiato, you don't buy this? < 1272203372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok stop guys < 1272203373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a finitist < 1272203377 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOL < 1272203379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the biggest anything can possibly be < 1272203383 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1272203390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was fun while it lasted < 1272203394 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bring the fury alise < 1272203399 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he does? that's what i'm asking, with fax i never know what's serious and what's not < 1272203414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: he's got really offended at me for saying something about atheism before < 1272203419 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'd assign a v. high probability he's serious < 1272203432 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: I can prove god exists: You can see a plant grow < 1272203433 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seconded < 1272203434 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care about probabilities < 1272203447 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: there's your proof < 1272203461 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does nobody accept my proof ?? < 1272203463 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: you accept that proof? < 1272203465 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272203467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: stop embarrassing yourself < 1272203469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious < 1272203469 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, thanks < 1272203474 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise.... < 1272203474 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol do you < 1272203477 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1272203480 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not? < 1272203484 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opinions < 1272203488 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone has one < 1272203492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have a chance to be filed under "religioustype mathematician guy", not "half-mathematician, half-religiouscrackpot" < 1272203493 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this isn't a matter of opinion < 1272203494 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least one < 1272203495 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't believe in proving things out of a formal system < 1272203498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't throw it away < 1272203520 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, what about cogito ergo sum? You don't buy that < 1272203521 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1272203522 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a formal system where plants growing implies gods i accept it < 1272203524 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no < 1272203527 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do not < 1272203528 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1272203543 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cogito ergo sum is not even close to "plants grow therefore god exists". < 1272203553 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: no one said it was < 1272203564 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" i don't believe in proving things out of a formal system" < 1272203564 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about proving that some kind of innoculation works? by testing it and such < 1272203569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: but fax analogised. < 1272203572 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's just science < 1272203573 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no it wasn't an analogy < 1272203592 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a scientific truth, you can ask whether god exists < 1272203599 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it's not a mathematical proof but it has the same effect no? < 1272203603 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means "is it useful to model the world as a world where a god exists" < 1272203609 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer is obviously no in my opinion < 1272203626 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no, nothing to do with math < 1272203636 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just information about the past < 1272203648 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this innoculation has worked most of the time < 1272203660 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, it's not induction < 1272203665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THIS GOD HAS COMFORTED ME MOST OF THE TIME < 1272203671 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, people actually have an explanation about why it should work too < 1272203677 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as testing to back it up < 1272203678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO GUYS < 1272203679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PASCAL < 1272203683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY HIATO < 1272203685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW'S THAT TEX < 1272203705 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: that's just models for the world again supported by the fact they've modeled the world wellb efore < 1272203708 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*well before < 1272203711 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like alise has starting flaming to make sure she doesn't learn anything < 1272203711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: hiato: haito: < 1272203714 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax, out of interest, does it matter if god doesn't exist? I mean, as far as the end user is concerned, the effects would be the same < 1272203718 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heh < 1272203719 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care if there's a reason in that model why something should work < 1272203720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: haha seriously shut up < 1272203728 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just shut up, you're being a total idiot < 1272203728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't consider it a truth < 1272203733 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first i made a joke, then i tried to change the topic < 1272203738 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: if god didn't exist everything would just instantly stop like pulling the plug out of a computer < 1272203742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, "you're being an idiot" is a flame < 1272203744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flaming and proud < 1272203747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's fact, you are < 1272203750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...and I can prove it! < 1272203753 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: about the mattering, that's what i mean by scientific truth < 1272203753 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I have what I need < 1272203757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Funny, no, it wouldn't. < 1272203760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See: physics. < 1272203760 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether it's useful to think there's a god < 1272203767 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether the world behaves as if there was a god < 1272203768 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not sure I understand < 1272203834 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: science does not talk about what's true and what's not, that's the science of opinions called philosophy's job, sciences talks about mathematical models for certain phenomena < 1272203843 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and backs them up with experiments and shit < 1272203866 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, poor chioce of wording for that last one < 1272203868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also pulling a plug out of the computer -- atheism is LAPTOP BATTERIES < 1272203869 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1272203869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it all makes sense now < 1272203881 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: why are you being a dick? < 1272203886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can ask the scientific question of "whether god exists" by making some sort of model in which there's an all-knowing god and explaining stuff with it < 1272203892 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're like riot police < 1272203900 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: all you do is escalate things and cause fights < 1272203911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm basically Satan ...in a can. < 1272203918 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what? < 1272203943 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: seriously you are coming off as very deluded and brainwashed < 1272203956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tee hee. < 1272203966 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1272203969 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sure am one brainwashed atheist, Mr. Plants Grow. < 1272203971 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's like you have to cling on to atheism for dear life, because you are so terrified something might make fun of you for "beleiving in god" < 1272203977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1272203978 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: plants do grow < 1272203984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've considered my atheism many times. < 1272203988 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you think otherwise you are mistaken < 1272203993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes they do. < 1272203998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That doesn't mean God exists though. < 1272204001 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does < 1272204007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. It doesn't. < 1272204012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good point < 1272204017 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1272204021 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had not considered "No. It doesn't." before < 1272204022 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: seriously you are coming off as very deluded and brainwashed. it's like you have to cling on to consciousness-does-not-existism for dear life < 1272204022 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's not crazy. It's the government man. But noone believes me. But you will, right? Haha! You do, but they wont! haha! they called me mad- but I showed them! < 1272204030 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: typical... < 1272204031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you are so terrified something might make fun of you for "believing in consciousness" < 1272204037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1272204042 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to beleive in consciousness actually < 1272204049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to believe in God. < 1272204051 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't believe in consciousness? < 1272204052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's spelled Believe. < 1272204055 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise did you really? < 1272204065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: no, he thinks consciousness means "metaphysical-soul-type". < 1272204074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: As much as I could coherently believe anything before developing proper rational thouht. < 1272204076 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise I was a very strong atheist until like 1 year ago < 1272204076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thought < 1272204079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is not much at /all/. < 1272204088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohh, that would explain the incoherence and fanaticism. < 1272204096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recently deconverted atheists are the most fanatical of all religious people. < 1272204100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, re-converted. < 1272204101 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise like we used to have to sing hyms in class and I would just sit there not singing < 1272204110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fight the powa < 1272204112 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1272204117 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was in primary school tohugh < 1272204119 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though* < 1272204121 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: si back and enjoy the show < 1272204121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAGE AGAINST THE HYMN MACHINE, FAX < 1272204132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: have to smiley occasionally < 1272204141 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: heh, ok < 1272204142 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not fanatical < 1272204154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, sure < 1272204170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :god exists because plants grow. can we get back to haskell now < 1272204178 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well here is a problem: < 1272204184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH NO A PROBLEM < 1272204187 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*) nobody beleives my proof < 1272204199 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(*) nobody will LISTEN to my proof because _they've already decided it's wrong_ < 1272204205 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that remind you of/ < 1272204206 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1272204219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at your proof, and tried to figure out how on earth it made sense at all, which led to an automatic analysis of it in my wetware. < 1272204221 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint: It reminds you of trying to convince religous people that god doesn't exist < 1272204228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used logical systems, philosophical systems, etc. to try and find a match. < 1272204229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It couldn't. < 1272204233 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It concluded that your proof is full of shit. < 1272204237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to believe it's right. < 1272204242 0 :AquaLoqua!~hiato@vc-41-26-121-122.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1272204244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's me, incidentally. < 1272204261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't try and convince religious people God doesn't exist because it doesn't work. < 1272204282 0 :AquaLoqua!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo, cellphone irc! < 1272204335 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Also if someone is going to judge me and ignore the content of what I say based on "oh but they've got different beleifs than me" then I don't give a fuck what they think < 1272204338 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: 12:51 < alise> you have a chance to be filed under "religioustype mathematician guy", not "half-mathematician, half-religiouscrackpot" < 1272204344 0 :AquaLoqua!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, i mean god is, er, dating an athiest < 1272204358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not interested in talking about this. < 1272204362 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes you are < 1272204369 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just realize that you've been pwnd :D < 1272204372 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want to stop < 1272204374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have no chance of convincing me your religious opinions are not crazy, so do not even bother as it is a waste of both of our time. < 1272204376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hahahaha < 1272204388 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ typical distraction technique < 1272204392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While you seem to have succeeded at taking your delusions to higher and higher levels I'm not even going to listen now < 1272204397 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you will pat yourself on the back so you can continue living your delusion < 1272204406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are really fucking crazy. < 1272204407 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: everyone is a winner here. Except oklopol < 1272204416 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not a winner? :( < 1272204424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: now we are going to talk about pascal and nothing else. i am intensely interested in every footnote about Pascal. < 1272204425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every single one. < 1272204428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially TeX. < 1272204439 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like winning < 1272204443 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ok then < 1272204444 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: you can win < 1272204457 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: not allowed. 1st commandment < 1272204474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::----------------[()] < 1272204488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*[)(] < 1272204494 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato seems to be pulling out some kind of history book < 1272204496 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you considered cosmetic surgery < 1272204523 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol that is < 1272204526 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my face regex's all treatment < 1272204536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groan < 1272204541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate alise < 1272204546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too < 1272204554 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me three < 1272204560 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atheists are such annoying idiots < 1272204562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : plants four < 1272204562 0 :AquaLoqua!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me four < 1272204573 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, I have two votes < 1272204574 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conclusion: AquaLoqua = plants < 1272204584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AquaLoqua = hiato; therefore hiato = plants < 1272204587 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bahaha < 1272204598 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a vegiterian for what it's worth < 1272204606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the /hell/ is a vegiterian < 1272204614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vej e teeriyan < 1272204621 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and jewish, and gay, and black, and a midget < 1272204625 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13:08 < oklopol> atheists are such annoying idiots < 1272204626 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1272204637 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so hate all you want on me < 1272204640 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1272204654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: what, /all/ of those things? < 1272204657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :impressive < 1272204670 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most hated women in the world, that's me < 1272204683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait, i am /fairly/ sure you are male < 1272204690 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to quantum physics, nothing isn't nothing anymore.. it's really a boiling bubble brew of particles coming in and out of existence at such a small scale that you can't ese it < 1272204725 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: yeah. and caucasian, and straight, and six 2 and and and < 1272204732 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, six 1 < 1272204739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: :D < 1272204750 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise talk to me :( < 1272204755 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i belong in no minority i think < 1272204758 0 :AquaLoqua!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: used jmIrc < 1272204762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: not unless you talk about something else < 1272204773 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise quantum theory IS somehing else < 1272204779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something else else. < 1272204822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are there no good CASs... grr < 1272204832 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CAS < 1272204842 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fdulu@chippy> wtf CAS ~ < 1272204843 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :empty space has this much energy: 10^120*energy of the universe < 1272204845 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, I don't know what CAS means! < 1272204856 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10^120*energy of the universe = 0 < 1272204875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Computer Algebra System < 1272204885 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise what's the smallest prime numbers above that ? < 1272204888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symbolic expression evaluator/etc such as Mathematica, Maxima, Axiom, etc. < 1272204889 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might the constant < 1272204894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: something < 1272204899 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aah, yes, then wlf would be the wrong place to ask < 1272204910 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wtf < 1272204911 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know of a mathematical-notation handwriting recogniser thing? < 1272204918 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what about fuse? < 1272204926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1272204929 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not that though < 1272204933 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a CAS < 1272204946 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1272204963 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no, no < 1272204993 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Draw a picture of 3D curved space < 1272205007 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sage < 1272205011 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clos enough < 1272205016 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.sagemath.org < 1272205033 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any programme that has a livo cd is a win in my books < 1272205037 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*e < 1272205054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sage is kind of limited. < 1272205055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, really limited < 1272205059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I forgot Maple in my list < 1272205064 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't actually know < 1272205068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sage is really just an interface to other CASs and the python doesn't blend too well with it < 1272205074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus, well, it just doesn't do as much as the commercial ones < 1272205082 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well thanks for the heads up < 1272205106 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, there's only one thing left alise: be a pirrrrate < 1272205118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But even Mathematica is not really decent. < 1272205119 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you beleive in graviational lensing? < 1272205124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is also very slow on Linux. < 1272205128 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah well < 1272205128 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a fairy story like global warming or linux < 1272205128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps Maple? I have not tried it. < 1272205145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hopes that fax is joking for /once
< 1272205149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/\// < 1272205188 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps. TBH, if Mathematica is anything like what I've heard, then I'm not sure that the software you're looking for has been invented yet < 1272205300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe it has been; no reason though: it should be. < 1272205340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ I must remember to say |break| at the end of the program for each case. < 1272205340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :--Knuth < 1272205441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grr! I hate Linux font rendering. < 1272205455 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise part of the conspiracy I guess... < 1272205494 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey alise if the universe was flat it would have total energy 0 < 1272205498 0 :Asztal!~asztal@host86-156-197-110.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272205499 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not flat, so god exsts < 1272205516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just trolling me now < 1272205575 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :non-euclidean < 1272205652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NON-EUCLIDEAN GOD < 1272205656 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*GOD < 1272205669 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: please set topic: "hey alise if the universe was flat it would have total energy 0, but it's not flat, so god exsts" < 1272205693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone can set topic < 1272205705 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1272205707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272205710 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finally, at least hiato understands my proof < 1272205713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just keep the logs url < 1272205754 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272205835 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aah: "When +t is set, only channel operators may modify the topic of the channel. This mode is recommended in larger, more public channels to protect the integrity of the topic." < 1272205872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+t is not set. < 1272205873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1272205877 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1272205878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1272205881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so set the topic yourself. /topic. < 1272205886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah set it < 1272205896 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not, but I was just curious as to the mechanism < 1272205900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah just curious < 1272205904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1272205905 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit < 1272205906 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1272205909 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck... < 1272205909 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No the universe IS flat < 1272205913 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1272205924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's flat like ur mommas chest < 1272205932 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I retract my earlier statement < 1272205933 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol is just rour 'cause he lost and everyone else won < 1272205937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: so there is 0 energy < 1272205939 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1272205939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so god does not exist < 1272205940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm < 1272205941 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i lost < 1272205943 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sour < 1272205950 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed he does not < 1272206016 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the universe is accelerating < 1272206020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: so I'm interested in defining, inspired by TeX, a sort of ultra-subset of Pascal -- maybe not /quite/ as small as PL/0 -- say, uber-Pascal. < 1272206024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are now officially quality control. < 1272206026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep getting faster and faster < 1272206044 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :70% of the energy of the universe resides in empty space < 1272206053 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I am so very game < 1272206063 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that < 1272206069 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's totally game < 1272206084 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at LEAST 70% < 1272206091 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklopol_ < 1272206094 0 :oklopol_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that < 1272206095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: are you still game if I told you I was thinking of dropping pointers? < 1272206100 0 :oklopol_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :hiato < 1272206104 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah or would that just make you mad? < 1272206166 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, in principle, I dont really have a problem, but is there any reason in specific? I mean, is this just in the name of reducing the language? < 1272206180 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it will vake things more painful < 1272206181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah do you just wanna reduce it or what? < 1272206185 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*make < 1272206187 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah god that'll hurt < 1272206187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: pretty much: pointers in pascal are already restricted quite a lot, and I would imagine that buffers would work fine in most of the cases < 1272206189 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopork do you like cosmology < 1272206193 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i luv it < 1272206198 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1272206199 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's cosmology < 1272206203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: theory is "good enough for knuth, ..." < 1272206205 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the science of stars < 1272206210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus, I really hate malloc/free. < 1272206219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so not having them at all will be a relief; I won't feel obligated to use them! < 1272206244 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: heh, but ok. I too share a distrust with thos methods whose names we do noht mention, so ok then < 1272206270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't distrust them, I just find them so incalculably tedious that I find myself doing crazy things just to avoid them. < 1272206293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Packed arrays can obviously go. < 1272206294 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :antropic principle is religous? < 1272206309 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that < 1272206309 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naah, I _distrust_ them. Wouldn't give them house address in case we accidentally get overrun with junk < 1272206319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: What about files? Is there any problem with removing the program statement and adding "file" as a new type instead of weird x^ variables? < 1272206334 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, but... but... but < 1272206348 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, let's try fermalise this < 1272206352 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*form < 1272206354 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see < 1272206370 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272206406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As shown in the example above, Pascal files are sequences of components. Every file has a buffer variable which is denoted by f^. The procedures get (for reading) and put (for writing) move the buffer variable to the next element. Read is introduced such that read(f, x) is the same as x:=f^; get(f);. Write is introduced such that write(f, x) is the same as f^ := x; put(f); The type text is predefined as file of char. While the buffer variable could be used < 1272206407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for inspecting the next character to be used (check for a digit before reading an integer), this concept leads to serious problems with interactive programs in early implementations, but was solved later with the "lazy I/O" concept. < 1272206413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how this shouldn't be solved with simply functions < 1272206444 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depending on what you hate+ what I hate, I think we can find a better way to construct most of the existng types. As for I/O, we can come up with some clever def's and types based around buffers < 1272206467 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it seems we agree then < 1272206471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. Er, just out of curiosity, how attached are you to records? < 1272206476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know, I'm crazy! I just need to consider /everything/.) < 1272206520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll take that as "very". < 1272206535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously n..m types are useful. < 1272206541 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all. In fact, in my final exam for school i lost all the varks for using funky types and meesed up arrays instead of them. It's really not necessanry in a minmalist group < 1272206549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about enumeration -- (a,b,c) types? < 1272206549 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :records < 1272206551 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is < 1272206572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are "nice" I guess but really... that's just a bunch of constants and an n..m type. < 1272206576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No rason to be part of the language. < 1272206578 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you find a time where they are absolutely necessary? < 1272206584 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1272206584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theoretically they are never. < 1272206587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I like records though. < 1272206601 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sets -- Perhaps they may be faster, but I'm not sure I lik ethem. < 1272206610 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you like them then we get to keep localised functions < 1272206617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*like them < 1272206621 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike knuth < 1272206621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Not even C has them, does it? < 1272206628 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure < 1272206640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a localised function, exactly? < 1272206658 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, the whole not using C bit gets in the way every now and then :P < 1272206673 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scoped < 1272206682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1272206693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What has that got to do with sets? < 1272206696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or am I parsing you wrongly? < 1272206721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now. writeln. I don't like writeln because it's a variadic, polymorphic function that does different things depending on the types of each of its arguments. < 1272206723 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing at all, I was merely saying that if we compromise on records, we compromise on that too :) < 1272206726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Pascal, this is absolutely impossible. < 1272206729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So writeln is absurd. < 1272206747 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, not necessarily < 1272206749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However I don't think variadic functions are even very standard at all in Pascal. < 1272206755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Oh? < 1272206769 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we going to have overloaded functin defs? < 1272206785 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a la Delphi/FPC < 1272206787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: You mean f(x) and f(x,y) and also for different types? < 1272206799 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1272206804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only language I know of that does that is C++, I think. < 1272206811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLOS does but that doesn't really count. < 1272206811 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically for types < 1272206849 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My vote is yes for them, because it's such an overlooked feature nowadays < 1272206874 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what wit auto casting and implicit types < 1272207077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1272207088 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.16 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272207109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, I think that a lot of overloading is misused. < 1272207109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : For instance a function working on integers and the analogous function on the reals are often very different. < 1272207110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Such as division vs integer division. < 1272207110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Plus it complicates the compiler a lot. < 1272207110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I miss? < 1272207137 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I missed that all, un moment por favor < 1272207165 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmm, ok, I guess that is a valid point < 1272207200 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and through some quick resarch, I found that pascal has/had anoter mechanism to make writeln possible < 1272207205 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stackoverflow.com/questions/617654/how-does-writeln-really-work < 1272207222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, the ancient problem of having to say < 1272207222 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :procedure MyProc(args : array of const); < 1272207225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :string = array [1..n] of char < 1272207248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pick n < 1272207251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what should we do about that? < 1272207263 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what's the problem there? < 1272207272 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of, n as in var n? < 1272207275 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*oh < 1272207287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: that array of const thing is just for delphi&co < 1272207288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also < 1272207291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's that you have to pick n < 1272207292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for all strings < 1272207306 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPC i take as nearly standard < 1272207341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FPC? Remember that I'm not a Pascalite. :) < 1272207351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreePascal, I see. < 1272207356 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, my bad: Free Pascal Compiler < 1272207394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what have we agreed on. "program" sucks, separate file buffer things suck. < 1272207437 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aah, ok, as for string, the way I figure is to just use a shortStr = array [0..255] of char < 1272207447 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and build from there < 1272207480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this has numerous disadvantages, over a hypothetical structure containing the length of the string, followed by a dynamically allocated block. < 1272207489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, can't files represent such a thing? < 1272207495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who says they have to be bound to actual files...? < 1272207504 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, also, we will keep recordss, loclaised functions, no overloading, and buffer base IO < 1272207515 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1272207522 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like that idea actually < 1272207528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't agree to localised functions! :-) < 1272207532 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet. < 1272207535 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn < 1272207542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, files don't support random access, though, do they? < 1272207547 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1272207552 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sequential < 1272207575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's an issue for strings, then. < 1272207580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how come files get to be infinite? < 1272207585 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not technically a problem, but just adds a lot of overhead < 1272207630 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They dont, reall,. In fact, IIRC, the FP for a file is restricted to cardinal < 1272207635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure if you've realised this, but we're basically honing in on defining a slight subset of Oberon-2 http://www.statlab.uni-heidelberg.de/projects/oberon/kurs/www/Oberon2.Report.html :-P < 1272207642 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is unsigned int32 in C I guess < 1272207657 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never heard of it, but damn < 1272207676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oberon-2 is Wirth's latest language in the Pascal series. < 1272207760 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this I dont like: Function = PROCEDURE(x: INTEGER): INTEGER < 1272207783 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like Function is a type then < 1272207791 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes no sense < 1272207825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes it does. < 1272207828 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the fact that PROCEDURE can return is a tad of putting for me < 1272207833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Function is the type of procedures taking an integer and returning an integer. < 1272207835 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*off- < 1272207862 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's meaningless, surel,? < 1272207865 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*y < 1272207938 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless we do first class functions and need a type for them, but then it would really be nice to have pointers < 1272207979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine Oberon has function pointers. < 1272208012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow apparently evolution is better than general relavity? < 1272208049 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yugh, and oberon has a ridiculous expansion for n-dimensional arrays < 1272208067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's it ridiculous < 1272208175 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARRAY L0, L1, ..., Ln OF T ==> ARRAY L0 OF ARRAY L1 etc in Oberon. In the spirit of all that is Pascal, that should just be invalid. < 1272208176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: anyway < 1272208183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...why? < 1272208215 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ... because that's just the way it is :) < 1272208223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1272208230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, opinion: the REAL type is named incorrectly. < 1272208240 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, yes, anyway? < 1272208253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can not even represent all rationals; it cannot represent a single irrational. < 1272208258 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RATIONAL_APPROX is what it is. < 1272208287 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about karma < 1272208288 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1272208295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: in what sense < 1272208298 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you beleive in chamelions? < 1272208304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1272208304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1272208312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that's in my head < 1272208357 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in all fairness, real reals have always been the job of external libs in any Pascal deriv < 1272208367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt any of them were /real/ reals. < 1272208373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can they represent sqrt(2) precisely? pi; all of it? < 1272208395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they did, then they are "computable reals", not found much outside of abstract mathematics. They have several disadvantages, such as that equality always diverges if given two equal reals. < 1272208398 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, ofc not _actual_ reals < 1272208412 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gmp-esque < 1272208417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1272208420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's still rationals. :P < 1272208444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, goal: the uber-Pascal's self compiler should be <10,000 lines. Including parser, everything. < 1272208445 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if that is your gripe with the real type, then it's merely a matter of syntax < 1272208455 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what lang? < 1272208460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :self-compiler. < 1272208462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uber-Pascal. < 1272208463 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaah < 1272208465 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1272208467 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tralalalalaal < 1272208470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1272208496 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sand into the keyboard < 1272208501 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sang < 1272208511 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1272208514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1272208544 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-142-139.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1272208573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: I wonder what the self-compiler should output. < 1272208582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps very simple bytecode in the style of Pascal compilers of old. < 1272208586 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I died a ping death, what'd I miss? < 1272208592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just "o_O". < 1272208596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then a simple machine-specific compiler would compile this to, say, assembly. < 1272208614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone know a good free text usenet server? Don't think my ISP provides. < 1272208787 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: heh, yeah, some 'junk' and a few bytes of import, then let's go fancy and huffman code the pascal, with delimeters for vars/const etc < 1272208814 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise how much quantum physics do you know < 1272208817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: Oh, I was thinking way more than that: actually compiled to a pseudo-asm type dealie. < 1272208818 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn my terrible coneection < 1272208818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Not much. < 1272208824 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, it was a nice idea in my head < 1272208829 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise we can learn it together < 1272208835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: :P < 1272208843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: will you keep trying to find ways to relate things to dog, I mean god < 1272208949 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, quantum physics has NOTHING to do with god < 1272208953 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1272208957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: Thank god! Er... < 1272209052 0 :hiato!~fdulu@linode2.kiwilight.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272209086 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, let's hope this works, I have now tunneled with SSH just to get a better ping < 1272210184 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i wanna learn quantum physics i'll just take a course at uni < 1272210231 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: IPL finals < 1272210304 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's ipl < 1272210977 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272213597 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272213897 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Took a while to knit out all the bugs... http://pastebin.com/71FdS5ge <-- updated version of the previous program, now supporting negative numbers and subtraction. < 1272213926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: It's tricky business, isn't it. < 1272213958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: Do you think it would be fruitful to extend this to base 256? < 1272213962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or thereabouts. < 1272214113 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have one for decimal numbers. It can calculate expressions with +, -, (, ) < 1272214208 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, wait... It isn't finished < 1272214216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, your binary functions trivially generalise < 1272214221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the carry operation is all that matters < 1272214229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just for efficiency in programs, since unary is really slow and binary is not much better < 1272214240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could we calculate small factorials with base 255? (need ~ for negative) < 1272214494 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space optimization for sub(m,n): add(m,succ[invert[n]]). < 1272214513 0 :hiato!~fdulu@41-132-142-139.dsl.mweb.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1272214691 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To do factorials, we need multiplication. To implement base-256 we need a case for every digit-digit-combination; some 65000 rows for each operation at least. < 1272214784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably it would be computer-generated. < 1272214794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, am I right in thinking there is no real obstacle to compiling Redivider? < 1272214794 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :computer programming < 1272214806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code and data are firmly separated, and there's no dynamicness... < 1272214833 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The regex implementation could be an obsticle, but not impossible. < 1272214861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could use Google/Russ Cox's re2, since the spec doesn't require backreferences or anything. < 1272214866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be superfast. < 1272214871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: Would your parser be adaptable to this task? < 1272214920 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1272215005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MizardX: I'm thinking that a hard fail -- being an unrecoverable operation that terminates the entire program -- is just a printf-exit type dealie. < 1272215018 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A soft fail is just, say, returning NULL so the whole program is effectively a chain of ||s. < 1272215288 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Redivider is highly recursive, so a simple translation into C would have stack troubles. < 1272215325 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The python implementation handles the stack itself. < 1272215338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1272215347 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ong of p < 1272215354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Woot! The creator is here. < 1272215369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I think that in Redivide, p[q] should soft fail, not hard fail, if p soft fails. < 1272215374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would allow a lot nicer branching and stuff. < 1272215396 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too bad I don't remember anything about Redivider. < 1272215406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look up the spec; http://esolangs.org/wiki/Redivider < 1272215408 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION begins trawling.
< 1272215414 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a tiny bit of JavaScript that translates Redivider to JavaScript code, but it's probably very incomplete, and I don't remember the implementation strategy at all. < 1272215424 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Also, I think that in {a;b;c}, b and c soft failing should cause the whole thin to soft fail, not hard fail; yes, this means that backtracking becomes large, but PEG parsers do that too, and they have no problem (e.g. Parsec) < 1272215430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it would make the language nicer for branching and stuff. < 1272215457 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the very point of hard fail is to prevent backtracking from becoming large. < 1272215515 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks at the spec and hopes it's not anything too embarrassing.
< 1272215735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backtracking becoming large is not really too much of a problem. < 1272215739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parsec and the like do it. < 1272215765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: It's not embarrassing, it's one of the prettiest esolangs! < 1272215785 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I meant the spec itself. < 1272215790 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the language is awesome. :P < 1272215804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The spec is pretty poor, but eh. < 1272215828 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272215979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: If Redivider had data structures a self-interp would be quite easy. < 1272215983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apart from regexps. < 1272216008 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strings aren't good enough for you, I see. :) < 1272216117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Not for representing all that :) < 1272216174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I'm impressed how clean and readable Redivider code is, when all it really is is regexps and branching. < 1272216191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I think functions are a wart; having separate () and [] seems to me a wart that could be fixed. < 1272216205 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I agree that that part's kind of ugly. < 1272216231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially since deciding between f(x,y) and f(x)[y] is often hard; the latter is ugly in appearance but the former is ugly to use. < 1272216238 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f[x,y], if that could be made to work somehow, would be ideal. < 1272216241 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The solution is simple: remove (). :P < 1272216282 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, sure, say that f[a,b,c,...,x] is syntactic sugar for f(a,b,c,...)[x]. < 1272216292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the semantics are different. That only helps the syntax. < 1272216337 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could say that f(a,b,c,...,x) is syntactic sugar for the same if f has one less argument than was actually given. < 1272216354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shrugs.
< 1272216458 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, for backtracking, you could extend the language. Say that `this` means the same thing as this, except when this hard fails, in which case `this` soft fails instead. < 1272216484 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you have backtracking, but only when the programmer thinks it's a good idea. < 1272216522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a kludge. < 1272216523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make everything backtrack. < 1272216525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Problem solved. < 1272216596 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose since it's an esoteric language, you could say that any of the three solutions will work. :P < 1272216639 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog uses "!" to cut off back-tracking inside a predicate. < 1272216639 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess taking a really long time is usually preferable to halting with an error, isn't it. < 1272216716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smite, and smitten; that thing is then smote. < 1272216887 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's my non-esoteric programming language design slogan: put the programmer in a maximum-sexurity prison and give them all the keys. < 1272216921 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What else would be inside the prison? < 1272217005 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The standard library and computing tools. < 1272217040 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1272217050 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pick up adder. use adder on bill and bob. < 1272217059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :throw adder at various non-adder objects. < 1272217070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remark that snakes have learned incredible arithmetical abilities since last seen. < 1272219388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: hi < 1272219589 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1272219743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: wanna specify what you meant by quoting for dependently typed / cas :/ < 1272219778 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obviou < 1272219779 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious < 1272219790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not. < 1272219798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tell me < 1272220167 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272220474 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272220496 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.231.13 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272220546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reals are [...] hard < 1272220628 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1272220736 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION listens to someone chattering away in German :/
< 1272220804 0 :tombom_!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1272220855 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-241-190.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1272220855 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272221011 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1272221065 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1272221255 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got duct tape? :p < 1272221307 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1272221310 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick question: if a language were to apply a move-to-front transform on its instructions, would it be possible for it to be TC? < 1272221678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1272221696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm any real-ish lib i write can't be self-contained, has to be integrated with the cas < 1272221704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because consider e.g. pi*SomeRandomF[pi/e] < 1272221845 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take Brainfuck. Add a move-to-front transform. Does this remove its TCness? If not, the answer to your question is yes. < 1272222007 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, but it might remove BF's TCness, but another language specially equipped to deal with it might still be TC < 1272222016 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: heh, thanks, but I suspect it does < 1272222085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: examine BCT. < 1272222086 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, in fact, I can prove trivially that you can write a loop in BF-MTF that does do the same thig everytime, but as for hindering a a tag proof, ay, I'm not sure < 1272222088 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess your question seems too vague to have a meaningful answer. < 1272222089 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/BCT < 1272222093 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does a lot of bit jiggling too < 1272222101 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*does not < 1272222138 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Will do < 1272222203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what would be fun? < 1272222210 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: Ok, I understand. Perhaps the question should've been, does applying MTF to a procedural language necessarily hinder it's ability to loop with predictable effects? < 1272222217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a program that outputs semantic-descriptions of esolangs < 1272222231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, say, of a certain form; with say paramaterisable "arg count" / "complexity" or something < 1272222252 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: I see MTF as something you apply to strings, not languages. < 1272222253 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds his breath and opens VStudio for the first time in a bit of a while
< 1272222310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTF is something you do to genders! < 1272222331 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: it's an encoding scheme, ad as such can be used to encode the meanings of any tokens, say, in a programming language < 1272222361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1272222363 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.16 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272222404 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, can't you simply say that the first step in parsing the language is to un-MTF it? < 1272222446 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272222460 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moo < 1272222472 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders about such things.
< 1272222476 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: sigh, ok. Again: does applying MTF to a procedural language necessarily hinder it's ability to loop with predictable effects? < 1272222479 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehh < 1272222480 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1272222486 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didnt't change that one < 1272222552 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does applying MTF, so as to encode instructions, to a procedural lang on a per token basis necessarily hinder it's ability to loop with predictable effects? < 1272222553 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION attempts to type a g-with-caret and fails.
< 1272222594 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g with circumflex? < 1272222604 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, sorry. < 1272222613 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any reason? ;-) < 1272222625 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hiato: do you mean if each instruction is actually a number n referring to the nth most recently executed instruction? < 1272223272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\6lkgh < 1272223277 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<-- Ru?ulo < 1272223298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: You fail at Unicode. < 1272223302 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, it looked right when I cut and pasted it ... oh well < 1272223316 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be easier within ERC / Emacs, but Opera ain't as comfortable for me < 1272223358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowadays, a word. < 1272223616 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION writes a short C++ program on his Nexus One
< 1272223707 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should do all his C++ homework on it
< 1272223712 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(j/k obviously) < 1272223829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Did you happen to see what my static compiler made (because of a bug of it) out of your benchmark.bef? < 1272223852 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, maybe ... < 1272223872 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: It basically turned it into what would be in C "foo: goto foo;". < 1272223876 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you hear that I wrote an B93 interpreter in Rexx? < 1272223892 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can add it to your collection (and I'm still waiting for links to your Fortran and Forth ones) ;-) < 1272223904 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinite loop, yes, that sounds like what I saw in the logs < 1272223916 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I didn't have the "pop 0 from empty stack" logic in place yet, so the starting value for the "-= 100" loop was "undef", and therefore it removed the whole computation. < 1272223924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, you logread thoroughly. < 1272223941 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes, not necessarily all the math stuff alise is fond of ;-) < 1272223946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't notice the Rexx one; I did notice I had been highlighted re mooz's Algol-60 stuff. < 1272223949 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur? < 1272223959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh come on, nothing I do counts as real mathematics. < 1272224047 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fairness, my benchmark is pretty lame ... I'm sure there are better things to test than subtraction (mul or div, perhaps) < 1272224100 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/WUY8YyjL -- there's that Forth one, though it's horribly lame; I'm ashamed of it. I seem to have done it seven years ago; I could do better now! (I hope.) < 1272224191 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why be ashamed? as long as it works ... ! < 1272224197 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/h2eYkH2q -- Fortran; also quite bad, I presume. < 1272224202 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know if these work right. < 1272224208 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Away to make some dinnur now. < 1272224257 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The big GOTO instruction in the Fortran one is funny, I think. < 1272224267 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the Rexx one: http://www.pastebin.org/177657 < 1272224323 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what the Christus Rex line is there for
< 1272224336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh Rexx < 1272224336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :har har < 1272224430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dance! Everybody-- dance! O; < 1272224431 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder which Fortran variety this is (77?) < 1272224437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dance! Everybody-- dance! < 1272224457 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, fizzie ... thanks!! :-) < 1272224482 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :77, I believe. < 1272224493 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why isnt augur < 1272224501 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what Forth is this for (or is it ANSI)? < 1272224511 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: he's busy doing things, presumably < 1272224513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: *ANS < 1272224517 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1272224540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: American National Standard Forth != ANSI < 1272224547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an ISO standard though, roughly < 1272224556 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, okay < 1272224559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I think I've tested it with gforth, but I used the ANS Forth standard doc as a reference, so it might even be a bit portable. < 1272224567 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANS, ANSI, ISO, tomato, tomahtoe ... blah < 1272224577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ANSI is an organisation, ANS is just a name of a forth standard < 1272224578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHA, gandi.net added "no bullshit" to their header line < 1272224582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going all out I guess < 1272224723 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, whatever crumbs of Forth I knew, I've forgotten < 1272224819 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmmn, I seem to have done the same ANSI mistake there; < 1272224824 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ ANSI standard word READ-LINE defined here since pforth doesn't have it < 1272224836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it mentions a "pforth", apparently it was that instead of gforth. < 1272224867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been dabbling with gforth lately; wrote some socket bindings (the existing were silly), and a JSON parser in it. < 1272224967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :linuxy guys: what would you put on a server that you don't want any crap on at all, so that it's administratable without dealing with a bunch of debian-style administration cruft? < 1272224972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm thinking arch, maybe < 1272224974 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pforth? doesn't ring a bell, but then again there are a billion ! < 1272224994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Slack? < 1272225008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'd go Slackwise, but I kinda like... packages... < 1272225022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slackware has packages. Just no... Dependencies... < 1272225023 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slack's what I was going to say too; at least it doesn't get in your way at all. < 1272225036 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slackware or Slax?? < 1272225036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's not really... a package... :P < 1272225040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think pForth's reasonably well-known; http://www.softsynth.com/pforth/ < 1272225046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it is. < 1272225055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slax is nothing to do with servers afaik < 1272225055 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just no package management. :) < 1272225060 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I do recognize the webpage < 1272225060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, i'd like package management ;P < 1272225063 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1272225065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slackware is close mind < 1272225067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is < 1272225075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even slackware and arch have to be configured to get rid of their usual crap < 1272225075 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you know ... everybody has their own Forth, it seems < 1272225083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, fine. LFS? < 1272225091 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least Slackware has 64-bit version now < 1272225110 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1272225111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all i want is some standard non-sucking shit like qmail and the like, no /etc/init.d rubbish, no really pointless programs installed < 1272225119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty much it < 1272225127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, Slackware. < 1272225134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... plus package management. < 1272225137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Closest you're going to get this side of BSD. < 1272225138 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, doesn't Slackware even use HAL now? < 1272225138 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but but - pointless programming is all the rage! < 1272225143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. BSD. < 1272225148 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"copyright 3DO", heh < 1272225148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I Forgot About That. < 1272225159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetBSD, perhaps. < 1272225161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't like ports... < 1272225163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you could just build Alisix. < 1272225183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right BSD would be nice, but I dislike ports. < 1272225187 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeBSD seems popular on servers < 1272225201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alisix would be nice but eh. < 1272225207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Save my efforts for the long-term things. < 1272225212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Linux distro is not worth the effort. < 1272225232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pity stali hasn't a release. < 1272225244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would be nice for the occasional really simple system build. < 1272225254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think sta.li may be a bit further than I'd want for a server: it has /no packages/, all systems have exactly the same set... < 1272225259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there is no choice, only one of each type of app < 1272225267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i've have to manually compile all the other stuff < 1272225289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just run Buildroot. < 1272225304 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is uclibc+Busybox's distro builder thing. < 1272225310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit you have got me tempted by the BSDs... is there an alternative to ports? < 1272225319 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Portage. < 1272225326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's- < 1272225346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-Gentoo?) < 1272225348 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gentoo/FreeBSD is FreeBSD using Portage instead off Ports. < 1272225358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll pass. I think. < 1272225363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Binaries are sort of nice. I think. < 1272225370 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, it is a completely normal FreeBSD system) < 1272225394 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it uses the Gentoo init script setup, and portage... And that's the sum total of differences. < 1272225395 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... is the author of defcalc around anywhere? < 1272225404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: the wiki < 1272225420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the thing that gets me is that nobody does server editions any more < 1272225423 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah. Ships with bash by default, because many parts of Portage assume bash. < 1272225423 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise Binaries are sort of nice. I think. < 1272225426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, you get all this pointless desktop crap. < 1272225427 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkgsrc? < 1272225435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you just don't need < 1272225436 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkg_add? < 1272225438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAL -- completely useless on a server < 1272225441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1272225453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Gentoo actually still has "server editions". < 1272225465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkgsrc -- is that widely used? < 1272225482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Mm... but I just can't bring myself to buy into the USE flags, 24-hour-install culture. < 1272225484 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Weather < 1272225491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what NetBSD *uses*. < 1272225500 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if you use binary packages. < 1272225505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And NetBSD comes as binaries, not source. < 1272225509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkgsrc, that is. < 1272225512 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: is he actually on the wiki? < 1272225521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pkgsrc is NetBSD's ports-alike. < 1272225522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: yes; after all, he wrote the article. < 1272225525 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272225532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which happens to work on a large number of Unixes. < 1272225538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1272225559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the actual (\x. !magic x x) construction is due to oerjan; though it's "obvious" once you've seen it < 1272225565 0 :iamcal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1272225572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, it has binaries. < 1272225589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the fixpoint theorem of lambda calculus, really. as is every other diagonalization, ever. well, more or less. < 1272225593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh. And you can use it on Slackware. < 1272225635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so once you've seen a handful of them, it's obvious. < 1272225648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://kuparinen.org/martti/comp/slackware/slackware.html < 1272225655 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: ^ < 1272225660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do believe that actually produces Linux/NetBSD. < 1272225665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1272225665 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetBSD/Linux. < 1272225720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pointless < 1272225726 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1272225733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: see above < 1272225777 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: like, prove to me that he hasn't dropped off the face of the earth sometime in the past month < 1272225778 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hates pressing ctrl-shift-backspace by accident.
< 1272225786 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do it worryingly often. < 1272225795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: can't. < 1272225798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use the email-this-user feature < 1272225806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asztal: disable that key < 1272225836 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION ALMOST implemented a search through a BST as though it was merely a tree
< 1272225842 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't solve my equstion :( < 1272225844 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1272225852 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: what equation? < 1272225861 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's even more work to implement it that way < 1272225867 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't reading through all the logs today, just searching for his nick
< 1272225867 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, (x-2)(x-3)(x-7)=0 < 1272225880 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which ring? < 1272225880 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: um, x=2, 3 or 7? < 1272225891 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to solve it using galois theory but I got the wrong answers < 1272225927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: if it's a field then a product being zero <=> one of the factors is zero < 1272225933 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, what Mathnerd314 said < 1272225943 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here is my attempt http://www.pasteit4me.com/413001 < 1272225947 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272225960 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is unreadible if you don't have the steps I am following < 1272225985 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why it doesn't just work! < 1272225988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(x-2)(x-3)(x-7)=0 < 1272226023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: oh you mean extracting that from the original polynomial? yeah i guess that's supposed to be galois theory. unfortunately i don't remember that part. < 1272226083 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i think fax was a _little_ unclear on what he was actually trying to do there. < 1272226092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1272226117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, or is that she nowadays < 1272226127 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if everybody here is studying mathematics at university
< 1272226133 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's (1/3)(s1 + y + z) < 1272226142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :she i believe. < 1272226211 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm studying mathematics in #not-math < 1272226221 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that's not allowed! < 1272226225 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horrible! < 1272226232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION punches lament
< 1272226255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it's the math of "not". in which case the above diagonalization would be relevant. < 1272226297 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if he's abusing continue and break
< 1272226305 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I got s_2 wrong < 1272226329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :breaking and continuing sounds like abuse in itself, i'd think < 1272226450 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm studying mathematics at university! < 1272226469 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codepad.org/brm0TsGn < 1272226488 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me rephrase that. < 1272226503 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm attempting to get good marks in mathematics at university! < 1272226511 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees how he could change things to not use continue
< 1272226514 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But why bother? < 1272226522 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you could use a break in the first to make it more consistent < 1272226576 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it would be a while(true) < 1272226695 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use Haskell, where if you want continue and break, you have to write them yourself! < 1272226719 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would make everything way too easy < 1272226729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty easy to do, though. < 1272226752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just write a new monad, or do it in continuations. < 1272226766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even some Template Haskell. < 1272226774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: you could use else break; then the continue's would be unnecessary. fwiw. < 1272226775 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, continuations make it possible. < 1272226785 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: he'd just do some pattern matching with recursion < 1272226788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CONTINUATIONS MAKE EVERYTHING POSSIBLE < 1272226802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why there's sprunge.us, taking pastebin input on HTTP; but no "nc paster.org"
< 1272226805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Continuations are the ultimate in flow control, so yeah. < 1272226833 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Beats me. < 1272226846 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: why can't you just return a bool instead of passing in a reference? < 1272226848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is considering registering uti.li for a bunch of little-utilities
< 1272226863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ nc uti.li (whatever the lowest unused port number is) infinity < 1272227598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bastards < 1272227600 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's n.kn? < 1272227605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: a domain name < 1272227630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wish uti.li was easier to type; it's really short and sounds nice + is memorable. < 1272227637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But typing it, at least on QWERTY, is like a tongue-twister for your hands. < 1272227643 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uti - stumble - ,. - li < 1272227663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because your fingers have to bend terribhorribly < 1272227664 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uti.li/ties, the best place to shop for ties. < 1272227678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1272227745 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use.ful ... easier to type < 1272227754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.ful doesn't exist though. < 1272227761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT IS THE ONE FLAW WITH YOUR PLAN < 1272227763 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought so ... oh well < 1272227780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Clearly. < 1272227816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it'd be really nice to have a bot in here hooked up to a competent CAS. < 1272227840 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1272227844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We get into the more... shall we say, abstract side of computing ... and each of us opening a Haskell buffer and scribbling away to get an approximation every time we need a calculation is a bit sucky. < 1272227845 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have parigp installed < 1272227855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: okay < 1272227869 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1272227875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD hi < 1272227905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course the issue with hooking a bot up to a CAS is that most of the half-decent ones -- namely Mathematica and Maple -- cost. < 1272227926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'm not sure how licensing would go if other people are on the server. < 1272227931 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write a (very basic) CAS < 1272227933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I'm not sure pirating it and then exposing it is such a grand idea.) < 1272227935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Axiom is alright, I gather, and Maxima is... you know... well, it works sometimes...) < 1272227943 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just something that will do basic calculations that I don't want to do myself < 1272227952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I want to write a (very advanced) CAS < 1272227975 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the important property of "not sucking"; one missing from all major CASs < 1272227978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially mathematica. < 1272227981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it lacks not sucking in droves. < 1272227996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is equivalent to sucking; i guess i do accept ~~p->p after all) < 1272228042 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you accept it for decidible predicated < 1272228045 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1272228049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes :P < 1272228051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that's a hasty generalization. i think you just default to things sucking unless proved otherwise. < 1272228064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION snickers
< 1272228065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: have you ever used mathematica?! :-) < 1272228073 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help me ; < 1272228081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think so < 1272228081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Error: no help found for topic "me". < 1272228085 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a math probluem < 1272228088 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mhm. The compiled bot connected to freenode okay, and it answers to "bf" and "ul" commands in privmsg just fine, but it doesn't seem to accept my authority; the "raw" command doesn't do anything. < 1272228088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah, you lucky bastard < 1272228094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it taunts you in, it shows pretty pictures < 1272228096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it lags, it crunches < 1272228097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it fails < 1272228099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it errors < 1272228101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it unreliabelises < 1272228102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sucks < 1272228118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: This is the final stage of sentientosity... < 1272228122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice knowing you! FOOOOOOOOOOM < 1272228127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My these paperclips are ni < 1272228150 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Rugxulo < 1272228162 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the paperclips who say ni < 1272228183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: the problem with writing a good CAS is that you end up having to write most everything else with it < 1272228194 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: my proposal: http://codepad.org/0BathdOv < 1272228206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's not so bad, in fact the universe turned into paperclips _ages_ ago. < 1272228228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to write a good typesetting system, so you can integrate it perfectly with your language; you need to write a good editor, to write stuff in; you need to write a good document editor (it has to be the same as the former two things) suitable for writing and publishing entire documents in with mathematical code interspersed < 1272228229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1272228231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the paperclips organized to make a simulation. < 1272228232 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: should be more useful than yours for the rest < 1272228235 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, that looks.. unhelpful < 1272228242 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see < 1272228247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :implementing a good cas is basically implementing the entirety of mathematical discipline < 1272228256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: wow, you turned into wolfram! < 1272228297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I'd like to make a Connection Machine-inspired OS, where the whole thing is N-in-the-range-of-billions entirely-parallel machines that operate on one bit at a time, with communication pathways between them < 1272228306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so everything becomes a task in weaving communication together... < 1272228309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm not OS < 1272228310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :esolang < 1272228361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.esolangs.org/forum/ 1 to 5 are spam; all the same question/response format advertising some product < 1272228409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i mentioned that already. < 1272228415 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a cool CAS < 1272228434 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically a calculator that has better numbers than just integers < 1272228439 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and floats < 1272228440 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: does Mathematica work? :p < 1272228448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematica is so shit. < 1272228449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming there are no new ones, rss says no < 1272228469 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise do you think that handwriting recognition could really work? < 1272228481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dunno... < 1272228489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't even know whether it'd be faster than typing < 1272228491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks for comments
< 1272228493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have to try eh? < 1272228502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematicians like writing on paper and it usually isn't /too/ messy, so... < 1272228539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: also imo: the important symbolic-computation part of a CAS is basically a partial evaluator that stores infinite-precision values as free variables, accompanied with special-cases in every relevant function over these free variables < 1272228539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1272228541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno < 1272228553 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just having an atomic symbol behave according to certain rules, then calling it a real < 1272228562 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I agree with that < 1272228566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus some approximation function that takes an expression and approximates it numerically to arbitrary precision < 1272228567 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what you are talking about sounds like just one approach < 1272228572 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have a slightly different one in mind < 1272228573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: well, CAS = /symbolic/ < 1272228581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you just mean a computer program that does algebra, well < 1272228586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that technically satisfies (expand CAS) < 1272228589 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah as a starting point < 1272228590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you know how acronyms and names go < 1272228603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't call anything that wasn't symbolic a CAS < 1272228616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...which is why i'm thinking a lot about how to unify symbolic term rewriting and dependently-typed functional languages < 1272228619 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: why is mathematica shit? I can only find 2 results on google for that < 1272228669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: It entices you in with pretty pictures and the like, but -- and ais523, winner of the Wolfram Prize, sufferer under Mathematica can attest to this -- one, it's coded shittily. It's basically unoptimised tree rewriting. The compositions of the C primitives that Wolfram Research expect/want you to do are blazing. Change one tiny little thing? Glacial. < 1272228678 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean glacial: Mathematica is either insanely fast, or unbelievably slow. < 1272228693 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without knowing t1,t2,t3 < 1272228704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, for an advanced mathematical CAS a large portion of its function library is not-so-mathematical things like image processing and the like. < 1272228711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the GUI is laggy on a lot of machines. < 1272228718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Linux it's so ridiculously laggy that I find it unusable. < 1272228725 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :primarily I just want to calculate answers < 1272228726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, it costs far too much. < 1272228732 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a useable interface can come later < 1272228786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: conclusion: Mathematica sucks. < 1272228790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I've heard Maple is alright. < 1272228861 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :big, slow, expensive... ok < 1272228868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big is not such an issue. < 1272228885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But very slow, creates hype and then fails to live up to it, and expensive are the main things. < 1272228914 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it creates so much hype it slows down the computations! < 1272228915 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically mathematica < 1272228922 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is better than lisp < 1272228923 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1272228943 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, expensive -> big, so that makes sense < 1272228953 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and optimization is harder for big things < 1272228955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: lol wat < 1272229045 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey CAS users < 1272229055 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a challenge for you (i.e. solve this problem for me) < 1272229089 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waits
< 1272229110 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I have maxima installed right now... not that that will do any good < 1272229118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: come on < 1272229128 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh you guys will actually try it? < 1272229134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272229145 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay let w = e^(2ipi/3) so that w is a primitive cube root of unity, < 1272229174 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let y = t_1 + w*t_2 + w^2*t_3 and z = t_1 + w^3*t_2 + w*t_3 < 1272229200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t_n are unknown yeah? < 1272229206 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they are just some variables < 1272229217 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I have a theorem that says y^3 + z^3 and y^3 * z^3 are both in Q. < 1272229232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec < 1272229248 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Extra informaton: < 1272229255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: am i meant to encode this theorem? < 1272229269 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no just calculate the values of y^3 + z^3 and y^3 * z^3 < 1272229289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? you have free variables < 1272229314 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t_1,t_2,t_3 are roots of t^3 - s1 t^2 + s2 t - s3 = 0, where s1 = t1 + t2 + t3, s2 + t1*t2 + t1*t3 + t2*t3, s3 = t1*t2*t3 < 1272229337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait t1 = t_1 here? < 1272229338 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 + w + w^3 = 0 or w + w^2 = -1 < 1272229341 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, yeah < 1272229347 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't mean to switch notations < 1272229361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i will try but i don't think maxima is up to this < 1272229379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's find_root... singular... < 1272229405 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm i wonder could i just use solve to do this? < 1272229445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s1 = t1 + t2 + t3, s2 + t1*t2 + < 1272229446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be = right < 1272229448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s2 = t1 < 1272229516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(%i13) allroots(t^3 - s1 * t^2 + s2 * t - s3 = 0); < 1272229516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`allroots': polynomial not univariate: (s3, s2, t, s1) < 1272229516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -- an error. To debug this try debugmode(true); < 1272229517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: sorry. < 1272229517 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1272229543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the roots are given by his s1 = < 1272229546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : t1 + t2 + t3, s2 + t1*t2 + t1*t3 + t2*t3, s3 = t1*t2*t3 equations < 1272229550 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well start by multiglying out y^3 + z^3 < 1272229556 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and them simplify it down to a rational < 1272229566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*s2 = in there < 1272229572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: actually i just have no idea how to tell maxima all this < 1272229577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i give up, pretty much < 1272229608 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :urgh you haven't even tried < 1272229613 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no root finidng involved < 1272229619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i know < 1272229624 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just multiply out y^3 + z^3 < 1272229625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a cas sucks if it can't work it all out for you. < 1272229627 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will get something huge < 1272229680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus Maxima is so hard to use with its ugly output. < 1272229701 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: got something huge: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28t_1+%2B+w*t_2+%2B+w^2*t_3%29^3+%2B+%28t_1+%2B+w^3*t_2+%2B+w*t_3%29^3+with+w+%3D+e^%282+i+pi+%2F+3%29 < 1272229703 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your computers can't do this I will have to figure it out myself.. < 1272229721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, just outsource it to web 3.0 < 1272229723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1272229732 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even did the subscript. clever wolfram alpha < 1272229745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1272229770 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: well there is a 3 in there which should be a 2 < 1272229804 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, change it and press enter ;-) < 1272229836 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's real if t1-t3 are real < 1272229868 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for * < 1272229890 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good enough? < 1272229911 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28t_1+%2B+w*t_2+%2B+w^2*t_3%29^3+*+%28t_1+%2B+w^2*t_2+%2B+w*t_3%29^3+with+w+%3D+e^%282+i+pi+%2F+3%29 < 1272229929 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28t_1+%2B+w*t_2+%2B+w^2*t_3%29^3+%2B+%28t_1+%2B+w^2*t_2+%2B+w*t_3%29^3+with+w+%3D+e^%282+i+pi+%2F+3%29 < 1272230162 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax? < 1272230169 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1272230200 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that "Alternate form assuming t1, t2 and t3 are real:" looks good,I am trying to rewrite it in terms of s1,s2,s3 < 1272230209 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1272230210 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 s1 - 3 ((t_2^2 + t_3^2) t_1 + (t_1^2 + t_3^2) t_2 + (t_1 + t_2^2) t_3) + 12 s3 < 1272230217 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like that, I can't see what to do with the middle bit < 1272230239 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something to do with s2, I imagine < 1272230289 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I just notice that I got this wrong, that s1 part is a mistake < 1272230299 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an error < 1272230366 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1272230389 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parts of that 12 may want to be shared out < 1272230395 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something odd about the '2' tohugh < 1272230411 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infact I would say it's the oddest prime < 1272230511 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272230610 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1272230716 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=factor+2+x^3+-+3+y+x^2-3+z+x^2-3+y^2+x-3+z^2+x%2B12+y+z+x%2B2+y^3%2B2+z^3-3+y+z^2-3+y^2+z < 1272230828 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's (s1-3 t1)(s1-3 t2)(s1 - 3 t3) < 1272230864 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool!! < 1272230873 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right... now we can work on y^3 z^3 :P < 1272230881 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you are fed up of this < 1272230890 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, let's do so :- < 1272230894 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* :-) < 1272230907 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :once I have this, I should be able to write down an solution for the general cubic < 1272230965 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1272230970 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey augur < 1272230975 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1272230985 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know Steven pinker? < 1272231000 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I jus twatched this, http://fora.tv/2008/09/12/Steven_Pinker_The_Stuff_of_Thought it's pretty cool (linguistics) < 1272231012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very basic I guess .. compared to what you do though < 1272231204 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahh < 1272231205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1272231209 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i dont know if ive watched that one yet < 1272231217 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the corresponding book has some interesting chapters < 1272231221 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and raises some interesting questions < 1272231232 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, i have to be out of here < 1272231233 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :byeee < 1272231237 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya < 1272231252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1272231305 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1272231323 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should go to bed soon < 1272231331 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... product is too long to enter into the textbox < 1272231338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: lol < 1272231342 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314 that keeps happening to me with wolfram :[ < 1272231342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :write prod < 1272231514 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1272231515 0 :nooga!~nooga@188.74.79.101 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272231534 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parser dies when removing all spaces :-/ < 1272231541 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parser parser < 1272231542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd offer to use Mathematica, but it's not on this machine. < 1272231549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try their web API. < 1272231556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am sure it will accept more. < 1272231614 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272231621 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually got visited at a summer camp by wolfram :-) < 1272231629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That must have been horrible. < 1272231645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, how did he fit his ego in the room and still have space left for you? < 1272231670 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wolfram is the god of nerds < 1272231673 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a big room ;-) < 1272231678 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird guy < 1272231689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: I resent that < 1272231692 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's no god of mine < 1272231705 0 :funcot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1272231708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?ul (hello, I am a real executable)S < 1272231708 0 :funcot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello, I am a real executable < 1272231708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Like a TARDIS! < 1272231718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What about the whole, you know, self-modifying malarkey? < 1272231753 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?help < 1272231761 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're not a nerd < 1272231761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it doesn't. I have (will have, hopefully, etc.) jitfunge for those use-cases. < 1272231768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: hahaha < 1272231769 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TARDIS FTW < 1272231775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me not a nerd < 1272231776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I laugh < 1272231784 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So fungot doesn't really use g or p at all? < 1272231785 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the outer macro is interpreting the code ( follow the link < 1272231786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Howso? < 1272231792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it just modifying code that doesn't work? < 1272231793 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t_1^6-3 t_2 t_1^5-3 t_3 t_1^5+6 t_2^2 t_1^4+6 t_3^2 t_1^4+3 t_2 t_3 t_1^4-7 t_2^3 t_1^3-7 t_3^3 t_1^3-3 t_2 t_3^2 t_1^3-3 t_2^2 t_3 t_1^3+6 t_2^4 t_1^2+6 t_3^4 t_1^2-3 t_2 t_3^3 t_1^2+9 t_2^2 t_3^2 t_1^2-3 t_2^3 t_3 t_1^2-3 t_2^5 t_1-3 t_3^5 t_1+3 t_2 t_3^4 t_1-3 t_2^2 t_3^3 t_1-3 t_2^3 t_3^2 t_1+3 t_2^4 t_3 t_1+t_2^6+t_3^6-3 t_2 t_3^5+6 t_2^2 t_3^4-7 t_2^3 t_3^3+6 t_2^4 t_3^2-3 t_2^5 t_3 < 1272231807 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like i'm on acid < 1272231811 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-156-192-2.range86-156.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272231814 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not. < 1272231822 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There's a funge-space, sure, it's just data-only. I use it a lot for data-storage, but not for modifying anything that will be executed. < 1272231841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1272231846 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1272231850 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1272231897 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact the executable is ~235 kilobytes, because there's a 592*80*4 byte static array containing the cells defined in the program source, in case it tries to 'g' those values. < 1272232005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there are still lots of bugs, but it's a nice feeling that it got on IRC with so little work. The babbler part probably won't work; it's the most complicated piece of the bot, after all. < 1272232032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funcot: babble < 1272232042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1272232045 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no data files there, or styles. < 1272232062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably try funcot with the real fungot's state-files and others. < 1272232063 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: what about him? :) everyone seems to have a nice day solely because of the < 1272232073 0 :funcot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272232139 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: How goes jitfunge, anyways? < 1272232181 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fires up Sage
< 1272232186 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on a VM) < 1272232193 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've been sidetracked with this other compiler a bit. < 1272232215 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1272232231 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume you're using LLVM for both? < 1272232259 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but a bit differently. I didn't really feel like doing C++ for this static compiler, so I just generate LLVM .ll assembly sources. < 1272232273 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: RUN THE SKY IS FALLING < 1272232287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH < 1272232297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: sage is kinda crappy < 1272232301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1272232310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a half-baked python interface to a bunch of half-decent tools < 1272232311 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, not the same code generation. :( < 1272232321 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but it has a polynomial factorer :-) < 1272232337 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alpha removed almost all incentive to use Sage < 1272232344 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can probably reuse fingerprint implementations and some other bits, but they're reasonably independent projects. If jitfunge code would have been cleaner, maybe I could have shared more code. < 1272232512 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: (x^2 - x y + y^2 - x z - y z + z^2)^3 < 1272232574 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd, http://hpaste.org/fastcgi/hpaste.fcgi/view?id=25045 < 1272232578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alpha is just so unreliable, that's the issue < 1272232590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why we need alyskas < 1272232590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mangled alisecas) < 1272232602 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is great the cubic is solved! < 1272232616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alγsκαs < 1272232627 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: to floating-point precision ;-) < 1272232642 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you have CReal) < 1272232668 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, one thing which is missing is radical expressions for cube roots of unity.. but that will be another time < 1272232690 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1272232692 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said you wanted to sleep :-) < 1272232697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just install few digits < 1272232699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voila reals < 1272232764 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272232784 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272232793 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Quitte < 1272232806 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah; I like http://gmplib.org/#TRY a lot < 1272232809 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-46-250.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1272232846 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, another thing my algebra system will have is radical numbers and algebraic numbers < 1272232858 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no easy way to download from Magnatune without paying anymore :( < 1272232867 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to need to write an app for that < 1272232880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: shouldn't you just do x^1/n < 1272232888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: there's an app for that < 1272232899 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1272232913 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's it called? < 1272232920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :totally radical < 1272232936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Only on iPhone. < 1272232941 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION growls
< 1272232942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From Apple. < 1272232951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :www.apple.com < 1272232957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Growling? < 1272232959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an app for that. < 1272232964 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...er, no, wait. It was rejected. < 1272232985 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION laughs because he's so confused
< 1272232991 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it that you were joking about there being an app for downloading from Magnatune for iPhone? < 1272232999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OR IS THERE LOL < 1272233012 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay bye < 1272233018 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise aren't you going to bed soon ? < 1272233021 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye fax < 1272233031 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1272233032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometime < 1272233033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1272233043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1272233059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not you oerjan < 1272233141 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1272233189 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION counts 3 ops on #esoteric
< 1272233288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan lament fizzie? < 1272233295 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1272233299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament never uses ops except as part of his regular exercise routine (trolling) < 1272233309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan hasn't used ops one iirc < 1272233319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last time fizzie used ops he was so nervous he almost shattered from the cruelty of what he was doing < 1272233329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this place approximates anarchy pretty closely over time < 1272233347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's either an argument for anarchy working or not working depending on your perspective :D < 1272233348 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can ask on #freenode < 1272233409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alγsκαs is pretty... albeit meaningless < 1272233477 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone know of a LaTeX package to make a table where the head column stretches out diagonally to save horizontal space? < 1272233485 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like what you might see in a brochure < 1272233497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh?# < 1272233499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*eh? < 1272233540 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272233542 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/User:BaronW < 1272233548 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now that's esoteric. < 1272233576 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not turing-complete :p < 1272233589 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor is anythinh. < 1272233712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you fail < 1272233719 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing-complete is a perfectly well-defined concept < 1272233721 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing real, I meant. < 1272233728 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I was unclear. < 1272233739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? BaronW could have -- if Dwarf Fortress allowed -- presented a finite construction allowing turing-complete computation < 1272233742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like a BF interpreter does < 1272233746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a valid thing to say :P < 1272233775 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Dwarf Fortress has finite storage. < 1272233786 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In game, I mean. < 1272233789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, that is the issue. < 1272233849 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to say that his division routine seems long-winded. < 1272233861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Dwarf_Fortress_Wiki:Magmawiki I wonder what the point of this i. < 1272233862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1272233909 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To replace MW, presumably. < 1272233911 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: my brain is Turing-complete < 1272233918 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it isn't. < 1272233921 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finite storage. < 1272233928 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can use paper < 1272233934 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you'll die. < 1272233957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why replace MW with something about identical to it? < 1272233961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: universe is finite < 1272233968 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They haven't. < 1272233971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, like Phantom_Hoover said, you are finite < 1272233972 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :universe is not finite < 1272233976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: physics disagrees. < 1272233992 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely it depends on the overall geometry. < 1272234011 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, soort of < 1272234014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the evidence and our best-accepted theories point to it being finite...so... < 1272234015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's finite. < 1272234016 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAIK it's unknown whether it's finite and unbounded or not. < 1272234023 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well. < 1272234029 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Science marches on. < 1272234042 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is technically finite, but because it's expanding faster than I can travel, it is effectively infinite < 1272234043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: But besides, Phantom_Hoover is right; you are not immortal. < 1272234051 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will make myself immortal! < 1272234055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, even if you were, the universe is not. < 1272234062 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heat death < 1272234072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you do, in the end, only have the option of halting. < 1272234092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind, that doesn't make /me/ give up hopes that the singularity will sort out the pesky problem of entropy. < 1272234100 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entropy is such a misapplied concept :( < 1272234101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, it's just a statistical law... < 1272234123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm imagining some godlike force of matter keeping the universe prised open like a toothpick when it's due to big-crunch < 1272234132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck yeah, take that, universe < 1272234170 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even so, coppro would be in no state to be doing algorithms. < 1272234177 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on a universal scale, the nature of entropy is not well-understood < 1272234201 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :entropy divides itself by 0, obviously < 1272234201 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272234222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean when we're post-Singularity, provably immortal unless something goes really, really badly wrong, and Ω tells us it's figured out how to stop the universe from ending... < 1272234236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I'll accept that you can act as a Turing machine, given sufficient patience. < 1272234241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you would be an /unreliable/ Turing machine. < 1272234266 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possible non-deterministic. < 1272234288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well as the sheer likelihood of human error after so much time. < 1272234307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless Ω upgraded our minds, too. < 1272234315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then yes, you'd be able to act as a Turing machine. < 1272234315 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that story has been going around: http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html < 1272234318 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Ω? < 1272234330 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The end. < 1272234338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably the singularitu. < 1272234350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ω = superintelligence < 1272234354 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear god, my typing is atrocious. < 1272234358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Singularitu! < 1272234372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: It's been going around forever. < 1272234376 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's actually a pretty cool name. < 1272234435 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, is it true? < 1272234449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: The story? As in literally? < 1272234452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's fiction. < 1272234455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask a better question. < 1272234463 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"could it be true?" < 1272234492 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1272234500 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask a better question. < 1272234508 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"do you want it to be true?" < 1272234517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: I doubt there is a sort of metareality into which AC can somehow slip into when the universe ends. < 1272234521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the end is very metaphorical. < 1272234537 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But an intelligent hypercomputer is of course possible. Reversing entropy, who knows? < 1272234587 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it definitely has a "punchline" at the end < 1272234658 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm now severely regretting getting a low-end laptop and accidentally squishing my Windows partition to a sliver more than it needs... < 1272234673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" < 1272234676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Like all economics professors, I have no soul, and so am unable to sympathize with your loss." < 1272234683 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: external usb drive! < 1272234693 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or usb thumbdrive) < 1272234697 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too much like hard work. < 1272234698 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or sd card) < 1272234702 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye < 1272234704 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.9/20100401213457] < 1272234707 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1272234761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You are the husband of a wonderful and beautiful lady whom you love very much - and whom you just found in bed with another man. In a rage, you take your hardcover copy of Introduction To Game Theory and knock him over the head with it, killing him instantly (it's a pretty big book)." < 1272234763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This post is awesome < 1272234811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You are the dictator of East Examplestan, a banana republic subsisting off its main import, high quality hypothetical scenarios." < 1272234832 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yeah < 1272234840 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles and finds it again
< 1272234846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finds what? < 1272234848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The post is http://lesswrong.com/lw/24o/eight_short_studies_on_excuses/ < 1272234882 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right; I found that again < 1272234929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A leader of your state's atheist community breaks into your office via the ventilation systems" < 1272234930 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat. < 1272234998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait what? < 1272235008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The next day, the atheist leader comes in again. This time, he is wearing a false mustache and sombrero." < 1272235011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://lesswrong.com/lw/24o/eight_short_studies_on_excuses/ < 1272235091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb ~15-20m < 1272235403 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1272235558 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1272235598 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1272235938 0 :Azstal!~asztal@host86-169-5-222.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1272235959 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1272235967 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1272236443 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Hey! Listen! < 1272236458 0 :Alex3012_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1272236588 0 :Alex3012_!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1272237362 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1272238114 0 :nooga!~nooga@188.74.72.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1272239592 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer