←2010-04-25 2010-04-26 2010-04-27→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:28:51 <alise> bye
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00:50:10 <Gregor> laaaaaawl
00:50:12 <Gregor> I dun broke it!
00:50:19 <Gregor> I have a general-purpose web browser on my IREX :P
00:50:28 <oklopol> yawn
00:50:39 <oklopol> partially because it's 3 am
00:50:49 <oklopol> but also because that's not interesting
00:50:55 <oklopol> partially because i don't know what irex is
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01:02:50 <Gregor> What's a good web IRC interface for Freenode? (No Java, JavaScript OK)
01:03:20 <oklopol> why "for freenode"?
01:03:25 <oklopol> oh umm
01:03:37 <oklopol> because many of them are just for ircnet and somenet, maybe
01:03:55 <Gregor> Most of them won't just let you log in wherever, since they're proxying.
01:06:28 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: http://webchat.freenode.net/ ?
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01:10:36 <GregorIREX> Hello! This device is terrible for IRC!
01:11:05 <Gregor> Testing receipt of messages...
01:11:49 <Mathnerd314> hmm... is it this IREX: http://www.irexreader.com/index.html
01:13:27 <GregorIREX> Yup
01:13:27 <Mathnerd314> cool; did you have to install another OS or anything?
01:13:27 <GregorIREX> Nope
01:13:27 <GregorIREX> Just a custom browser
01:13:56 <GregorIREX> Hugey dishnest though :P
01:14:45 <GregorIREX> ...hard to type...
01:14:49 <uorygl> You should get an iPad or something; it's easy to type on an iPad or something!
01:14:55 <uorygl> Anyway, esoteric programming languages.
01:14:57 <Sgeo_> IREX?
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01:18:30 <Gregor> Sgeo_: It's an eInk digital reader.
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01:19:06 <uorygl> circle(A,B,C,D,E,F) draws a circle or line through A, B and C and another circle or line through D, E and F, and returns all their points of intersection in an undefined order.
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01:19:41 <uorygl> You can use case statements to do stuff conditional on the number of points of intersection.
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01:21:58 <uorygl> And you can define functions.
01:22:05 <uorygl> And you can use recursion.
01:22:37 <Mathnerd314> sounds turing-complete
01:23:27 <uorygl> There, that's my really vague spec for a programming language. I'll call it... oh...
01:23:51 <uorygl> Brainfuck II.
01:24:01 <Mathnerd314> nope
01:24:18 <uorygl> If that name isn't already taken, then that's what I'm calling it.
01:24:37 <Mathnerd314> it has _no relation_ to brainfuck *at all*
01:24:45 <uorygl> Precisely!
01:24:52 <Mathnerd314> facepalm
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01:26:52 <uorygl> I think it's essentially a push-down automaton where the stack can store arbitrary constructible numbers.
01:27:17 <uorygl> Thus, you can build a Minsky register machine, and other cool stuff, too.
01:30:09 <uorygl> I don't know if you can represent arbitrarily complex data structures and access them in finite time.
01:30:35 <uorygl> Er, not finite.
01:30:41 <uorygl> Bounded. Something.
01:31:09 <uorygl> Let me put it this way, and thereby be really formal about it:
01:31:53 <uorygl> I don't know if you can build a lambda calculus interpreter where each reduction takes a bounded amount of time.
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01:50:07 <oklopol> hi oerjan
01:50:17 <oerjan> hi oklopol
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03:46:02 <uorygl> "For our purposes, C, C++, and Java are mostly identical; where they differ, we will use C."
03:46:09 <uorygl> That's sort of a long way of saying "we will use C", isn't it.
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03:52:06 <pikhq> Yes.
03:53:32 <oerjan> I got an answer from Clive Gifford (the eigenratio guy). He thinks my unlambda interpreter might be cheating, although he doesn't have a precise definition of what that means.
03:54:12 <uorygl> An Unlambda interpreter is *supposed* to replace itself with its input!
03:54:17 <oerjan> Also I pointed him to our channel, he's read yesterday's discussion, and might even come here some time.
03:55:26 <oerjan> uorygl: well in _some_ sense, obviously.
03:55:51 <uorygl> So is he the guy who randomly postulated that phi is the best possible?
03:55:57 <oerjan> so i hear
03:56:08 <oerjan> (also from yesterday's discussion)
03:59:35 <oerjan> afk
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05:02:33 <coppro> yay midnight
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05:21:39 <Gregor> FEKKKKKKKKK
05:21:49 <Gregor> I had usbnet working on my IREX once, and now I can't repro :(
05:21:54 <oerjan> carnal intercoerce
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06:21:26 <calamari> Gregor: Nice.... Its list price in Europe is €649, and in US $699, however it is no longer available in North America due to FCC regulation non-compliance.
06:21:48 <Gregor> Guh? What are you referring to?
06:22:05 <Gregor> I have an IREX DR800SG, and I bought it no more than a week ago so I think it's still available for sale here :P
06:22:15 <Gregor> Also it costs $300 less than your stated price.
06:22:31 <calamari> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILiad
06:23:00 <calamari> well good then
06:23:30 <calamari> usb tethering is acting up on my g1 android lately too
06:24:05 <calamari> dhclient never gives me an ip address
06:24:28 <calamari> but randomly it will work, no idea why
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07:02:48 <pikhq> Marx was *such* a liar.
07:03:03 <pikhq> A door is what a *cat* is always on the wrong side of, not a dog.
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07:06:54 <Mathnerd314> so doors are defined by cats?
07:07:07 <pikhq> Yes.
07:07:08 <Mathnerd314> cat a > door1
07:07:13 <Mathnerd314> cat b > door2
07:07:15 <Mathnerd314> etc.?
07:07:20 <pikhq> Clearly.
07:07:33 <pikhq> We shall call this the Pikhq-Marx Door Theorem.
07:07:40 <Mathnerd314> cat door1 door2 > ?
07:08:46 <Mathnerd314> I find that cats tend to congregate on laps no matter what
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07:19:04 <fizzie> We have this balcony-sort-of-thing, and the cat wants to go out and in some twenty times a day.
07:21:03 <Mathnerd314> keep door open -> no problems
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07:21:21 <fizzie> It gets cold that way.
07:21:42 <Mathnerd314> put on a sweater
07:22:13 <Mathnerd314> or 3 layers of coats, if you want to be like me ;-)
07:24:04 <fizzie> Given what our winter is like, it's not a workable solution then; it could work in summer, except that then random bugs wander in. Maybe if there was some sort of a door-opening mechanism, but it'd have to be something the cat could use, and it's... perhaps not the brightest one ever.
07:29:09 <pikhq> It's even worse of an idea here. There's a *lot* of fucking bugs. I could do without an invasion of the wasps, ants, and whatever else.
07:29:25 <pikhq> Could be worse. Could be Oklahoma, and get a bunch of cicadas flying in...
07:32:28 <pikhq> Gah, right. Cicadas also here. Thankfully not cropping up this year.
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14:56:35 * lereah_ beholds
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16:03:22 <oklopol> so i tell this uni friend about toi and he's fucking checked it out already :(
16:04:54 <ais523> why is that a bad thing?
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16:23:14 <Gregor> Despite my attempts, I can't find a way to make that a humorous statement due to the use of the word "fucking" ... it's hard to have sex with the action of checking out source files ...
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16:24:14 <Gregor> THIS! IS! MEMETIC!
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17:37:46 <oklopol> ais523: i couldn't tell him about it! well i could, but a bit less.
17:41:05 <Sgeo> toi?
17:42:08 <oklopol> it's a language of mine, i haven't really mentioned it much
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17:44:25 <AnMaster> ais523, hi there
17:44:31 <ais523> hi
17:44:39 <AnMaster> ais523, I just ran across the strangest preference dialog design ever
17:44:55 <ais523> go on...
17:45:12 <AnMaster> ais523, first it appears as nothing strange, the usual "tree view with panel on the side" for when your app has a lot of settings. But which side is the panel on?
17:45:12 <AnMaster> well
17:45:14 <AnMaster> it varies
17:45:19 <AnMaster> depending on which item you have selected
17:45:25 <ais523> hmm, weird
17:45:26 <AnMaster> and sometimes there is one on each side of the tree
17:45:33 <ais523> do they do the same thing?
17:45:48 <ais523> oh, I thought you meant tree on each side of the panel, ignore me
17:45:49 <AnMaster> ais523, no they have different settings. So it isn't just a duplicate
17:45:53 <ais523> although, not as in /ignore
17:46:06 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway the panel acting that way is very very strange
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17:46:15 <AnMaster> and confusing
17:46:19 <ais523> meh, I can imagine worse
17:46:46 <ais523> a fun bug in jettyplay (a ttyrec player I was writing, and should get round to finishing sometime) had a slider change length and position as you were dragging it
17:46:48 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean that the tree view doesn't stay in the same place?
17:46:54 <ais523> making it very hard to select any particular value using the mouse
17:47:04 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, I assumed it didn't from your description
17:47:05 <AnMaster> ais523, how comes it did that?
17:47:07 <ais523> it's saner if it does, I suppose
17:47:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well it doesn't stay in the same place
17:47:21 <ais523> AnMaster: because the text saying what its current value was was changing size and causing a layout recalculation
17:47:24 <AnMaster> but even if it did it would still be pretty wtf
17:47:31 <AnMaster> ais523, was it java?
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17:47:36 <AnMaster> because this thing is java too
17:47:37 <ais523> yes
17:47:46 <ais523> but it was a bug in my own code, and I fixed it
17:47:47 <AnMaster> one of the things where java should not have been used
17:47:51 <AnMaster> like
17:47:54 <ais523> that's not the sort of thing you let into production
17:48:03 <AnMaster> you have to allocate it 1 GB RAM to do anything useful
17:48:08 <AnMaster> sure you would need a lot in C too
17:48:19 <AnMaster> but I imagine you could get away with slightly less
17:49:17 <AnMaster> hm, now that I think about it, tools written for computer engineers are often less polished than tools written for other things.
17:49:23 <AnMaster> which would fit this perfectly
17:49:31 <AnMaster> since it is a VLSI tool
17:49:54 <ais523> AnMaster: I find that problem with jettyplay too; I need to give it about 1GB, and even that isn't enough
17:50:06 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure why, either
17:50:11 <ais523> despite running a memory profiler
17:50:26 <AnMaster> ais523, but that doesn't make sense... I mean a VLSI tool at least have a legitimate reason for needing a lot of RAM
17:50:49 <ais523> AnMaster: well, it's loading entire ttyrecs into memory twice, and they can be quite large
17:51:06 <AnMaster> ais523, why twice...
17:51:15 <ais523> 19 855 387
17:51:19 <AnMaster> eh?
17:51:23 <ais523> hmm, 19 MB, that's not large enough to explain it
17:51:31 <AnMaster> and if it comes to that, why load it all into memory at the same time
17:51:35 <ais523> and twice, because it needs both the original, and a version separated into frames
17:51:54 <ais523> even allowing for Java using UTF-16 for everything, that still doesn't explain how it ends up using so much space
17:51:54 <AnMaster> frames? why
17:52:18 <ais523> so you can render it without fastforwarding right from the start of the ttyrec
17:52:20 <AnMaster> ais523, well it all depends on how you define frames, if you get one frame per char changed then you could get quite a lot
17:52:22 <ais523> do you know how the ttyrec format works?
17:52:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I thought it was more or less a capture of what was sent to the terminal?
17:52:44 <ais523> and you get one frame per frame, which is approximately equal to one frame per keypress at the program that generated the output
17:52:44 <AnMaster> with some time info added
17:52:48 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but with timing info
17:52:57 <ais523> a frame's the set of information that happens at the same time
17:53:00 <AnMaster> right
17:53:04 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway that could explain it
17:53:06 <ais523> or near enough to not be marked as being at different time in the ttyrec
17:53:11 <AnMaster> you probably get loads of frames
17:53:11 <ais523> but the frames are deduplicated
17:53:22 <ais523> as in, they share memory for bits that didn't change between them
17:53:23 <AnMaster> ais523, why not use key frames thingy
17:53:27 <ais523> the original takes up more than the frames
17:53:32 <AnMaster> to just store every 10 frames as full or such
17:53:35 <ais523> AnMaster: for things like regex search, and rewinding
17:53:40 <ais523> and because it really wouldn't help much
17:54:01 <AnMaster> ais523, recalculating some reasonable n frames wouldn't hurt much and would same some space
17:54:09 <AnMaster> I don't know what a reasonable n is here of course
17:54:13 <AnMaster> 10? 20? 50?
17:54:22 <ais523> AnMaster: no, because the frames take up less space than the original
17:54:26 <ais523> and doing that isn't going to help matters much
17:54:40 <ais523> what /would/ help would be compressing info about the original, because I don't use that much
17:55:04 <AnMaster> ais523, why do you need the original at all?
17:55:45 <ais523> for rerendering in case someone changes the setting, and for saving to disk if you're capturing a stream
17:56:07 <AnMaster> ais523, also what do you mean with the frames being deduplicated?
17:56:26 <AnMaster> and how on earth can they take up less than the original?
17:56:35 <ais523> AnMaster: if two rows - in different frames - are identical, they're stored as pointers to different bits of memory
17:56:42 <ais523> and because the original tends to be very repetitive
17:56:52 <ais523> say you're playing NetHack, you open a menu, then close it again
17:56:54 <AnMaster> ais523, does java even have pointers?
17:57:09 <ais523> it has to send a bunch of drawing instructions to redraw what was on the screen before
17:57:15 <AnMaster> ais523, yes quite. But unless you compress it somehow...?
17:57:18 <ais523> yet that can be deduplicated, as it's the same before and after
17:57:37 <ais523> and Java does have pointers, but you can't do arithmetic on them and they're disguised as not being pointers
17:57:53 <AnMaster> ais523, the original as on disc or the original as in your deduplicated version?
17:58:05 <ais523> the original on disk
17:58:11 <ais523> the deduplicated version is basically being compressed
17:58:14 <AnMaster> anyway, couldn't you just read the file in again
17:58:27 <ais523> no, because it might have been downloaded over the network, or even streamed in realtime
17:58:51 <AnMaster> ais523, like with curl foo | thisapp
17:58:52 <AnMaster> ?
17:58:52 <ais523> you couldn't redownload it, both for bandwidth reasons, and because the latency would easily be large enough to notice
17:58:57 <ais523> AnMaster: yes
17:58:59 <AnMaster> heh
17:59:03 <ais523> or, thisapp opening a telnet screen or whatever
17:59:06 <ais523> *stream
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17:59:19 <AnMaster> ais523, you support that?
17:59:27 <ais523> not yet, but I plan to
17:59:33 <AnMaster> telnet stream?
17:59:34 <ais523> it's an obvious feature for any ttyrec player to have
17:59:35 <AnMaster> wth is that even
17:59:45 <AnMaster> wouldn't that be in real time recording anyway
17:59:49 <ais523> because most roguelike games on public servers are streamed over telnet
17:59:55 <AnMaster> sure
17:59:58 <ais523> and yes, it would record the timestamps itself
18:00:07 <AnMaster> ais523, so it isn't just a player then?
18:00:27 <ais523> well, that's effectively playing IMO
18:00:42 <ais523> it isn't a recorder, really, because it already needs a stream to work on, all that matters is where the timing info's coming from
18:00:51 <ais523> (ttyrec recorders accept input so you can communicate with the thing you're recording)
18:02:35 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes it need to proxy everything back to the app
18:02:46 <AnMaster> like you know, a terminal does
18:02:51 <ais523> yep, and jettyplay doesn't do that, so it isn't a ttyrec player
18:02:58 <AnMaster> that reminds me, I always wondered how to write something like xterm
18:03:09 <ais523> it's basically just a massive switch statement
18:03:17 <AnMaster> what are the APIs you implement to push stuff like columns/rows to the tty layer
18:03:18 <AnMaster> and so on
18:03:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> yep, and jettyplay doesn't do that, so it isn't a ttyrec player <-- s/player/recorder/?
18:03:50 <ais523> yes, correction accepted
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19:05:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Please tell me there's someone here.
19:05:42 <pikhq> 誰もがない。
19:05:43 <ais523> yes, I'm here
19:05:48 <ais523> but not really paying attention
19:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Excellent...
19:05:52 <ais523> also, this isn't #irp
19:06:29 <Phantom_Hoover> There's no-one at #winehq, which is particularly annoying when you're looking for tech-support.
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19:58:43 <zzo38> I have showed you this game before. Now it has more levels, and some things fixed, better instructions, support external levels, and some more stuff, even. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.zip
19:59:06 <zzo38> Only a few levels are not made yet. (But you can post external levels I might add in internal level later)
19:59:27 <zzo38> You can push right-mouse-button click on object for a menu of list of objects there, you can select one for a description of that object.
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20:26:46 <zzo38> charlls:
20:29:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, what do you need to play it?
20:29:19 <AnMaster> just curious
20:30:08 <AnMaster> zzo38, also what about screenshots?
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20:37:22 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.png
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20:37:51 <zzo38> You need Windows. (Unless you can find a way to compile the .GMD file in another operating system)
20:38:10 <zzo38> I am sure I have showed this game before?
20:38:37 <zzo38> Later on I might make it work in a different program language that can be more cross-platform
20:40:05 <zzo38> (You can try Wine, I'm unsure if it would work with Wine)
20:40:27 <zzo38> (I'm also unsure whether or not it will work with ReactOS)
20:43:39 <zzo38> Did you try? Did you write a comment?
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21:05:25 <AnMaster> windows? bah
21:05:31 <AnMaster> explains why I didn't remember it
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21:06:47 <pikhq> .GMD file?
21:08:05 <pikhq> Oh, "game maker" type thing.
21:10:11 <uorygl> ¡Ay! How do I tell irssi to swap two windows?
21:10:49 <uorygl> I want to move window 24 to window 6 while keeping as many other windows as possible the same.
21:11:07 <zzo38> I don't know anything about irssi
21:12:07 <zzo38> I have some documentation written out for a program to convert .GMD to .GMZ and which is a JIT compile format for cross-platform, and I have some libraies too, but no such program exists at the current time
21:15:47 <zzo38> If you have Linux, can you please tell me if this program works with Wine?
21:16:11 <uorygl> I have OS X, which is capable of running Wine.
21:17:05 <zzo38> Try it in OS X? Do different programs run on Wine with Linux than with OS X?
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21:18:17 <uorygl> I don't know.
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21:19:26 <zzo38> Well, just try anyways, and if it works, tell me if you like this game and other comment. If it doesn't work, is some function of Wine broken, what function of Wine might be broken in this case? Is there some kind of debugger to test these kind of things?
21:19:50 <pikhq> uorygl: In window 24: /window move 6. In window 6 (now, window 7): /window move 24
21:19:58 <pikhq> All other windows will then be in the same location.
21:20:20 <uorygl> Well, that works.
21:20:48 <uorygl> zzo38: what's the thing to try under Wine?
21:21:07 <pikhq> zzo38: Works under WINE just right.
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21:21:26 <pikhq> Typically when something is broken in WINE, it's because of an unimplemented library function.
21:21:41 <zzo38> uorygl: What do you mean by "what's the thing to try under Wine?" Just type in "wine MESKILB.EXE" isn't it?
21:21:48 <pikhq> Yuh.
21:22:02 <zzo38> If there is an unimplemented function, is there a debugger to tell you what unimplemented function it is trying to call?
21:22:12 <ais523> it outputs it to stdout
21:22:17 <uorygl> I guess pikhq got it to work. I was wondering what the URL to that EXE was.
21:22:18 <ais523> if you run WINE from the command line
21:22:26 <pikhq> Or just "./meskilb.exe" if you've got PEs registered as an executable format.
21:22:29 <ais523> or possibly stderr
21:22:38 <pikhq> It's stderr.
21:22:42 <zzo38> There is no URL to that EXE. You need the ZIP file and then you can unzip it
21:22:59 <pikhq> You tend to get tons of "TODOs" stuff.
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21:23:12 <uorygl> Well, the URL to the ZIP, then.
21:23:22 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/meskilb.zip
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21:29:50 <zzo38> uorygl: Is that the URL you were asking for?
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21:29:57 <uorygl> I think so.
21:30:27 <zzo38> OK
21:31:38 <zzo38> Did you try the new levels and other new features? (You can also make external levels if you want to, it includes documentation if you push F1 key)
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22:45:54 <coppro> woot
22:46:03 <coppro> my SOC proposal made it!
22:46:31 <pikhq> Whooo.
22:47:36 <ais523> coppro: was it a scam?
22:47:48 <coppro> ais523: my proposal?
22:47:51 <ais523> yes
22:47:54 <pikhq> Clearly he intended to get a prize from Wolfram.
22:47:57 <coppro> no :P
22:48:35 <coppro> my 'Dictatorship Scam', however, is a scam
22:48:42 <uorygl> Google Summer of Code?
22:49:01 <pikhq> No, Google Summer of Coats.
22:49:01 <coppro> yessir
22:49:11 <coppro> i.e. I get %5k
22:49:19 <coppro> s/%/$/
22:49:40 <pikhq> You've got to roll 5k percentile die? :'(
22:50:23 <uorygl> Oh, good, I didn't miss out by not knowing about Summer of Code in the past.
22:50:31 <uorygl> I think.
22:50:44 <uorygl> It's only open to students of 18 or over, so this summer I wouldn't be able to participate.
22:56:02 <uorygl> Heh, I couldn't have participated in GHOPC this year either. GHOPC is for high school students; GSoC is for students 18 or older; I am neither.
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23:44:22 <Mathnerd314> I missed GHOPC :-(
23:44:58 <Mathnerd314> hopefully they'll have another
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