←2010-05-01 2010-05-02 2010-05-03→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:26 <oerjan> i suppose different bases work for different increments
00:00:59 <oerjan> (a^(x+d)-a^x)/d = a^x
00:01:14 <uorygl> I suddenly have an odd feeling that I'm about to say something and alise is going to contradict me.
00:01:22 <alise> uorygl: No you aren't.
00:01:32 <oerjan> <=> a^d - 1 = d
00:01:39 <uorygl> Anyway, if a hypothesis is falsifiable, then as the time it's gone without being falsified approaches infinity, its probability approaches 1.
00:02:50 <alise> uorygl: True if and only if someone's /trying/ to falsify it.
00:02:54 <oerjan> well assuming the conditional probability of falsification has a nonzero lower bound per time unit...
00:02:54 <uorygl> Right.
00:03:05 <oerjan> (conditional on it being false)
00:03:09 <alise> If I said "pink elephants exist in a planet where everybody has penises of length -3.4i halfinches, and every fortnight they all explode and come back together again",
00:03:11 <alise> and nobody challenged it,
00:03:17 <alise> I don't think we could assume it gets more probable!
00:03:39 <uorygl> That's not falsifiable, though.
00:04:39 <alise> It is; "the planet is [some space we will be able to visit in the future]; we will be able to visit it in N years"
00:04:49 <uorygl> I could say, "The universe contains no planets that do not have sapient life but do have blue, hairy creatures that secrete food for their young."
00:04:51 <alise> set N = very big
00:05:02 <alise> even once we're able to visit it
00:05:04 <alise> we could falsify it
00:05:10 <alise> but let's assume it's in a really boring region of space and nobody does
00:05:13 <alise> it doesn't get more likely
00:05:18 <uorygl> alise: I could just always say that we haven't seen that planet because it's outside the observable universe.
00:05:28 <uorygl> Thus, there's no falsifying it.
00:05:28 <alise> Let's say it isn't.
00:05:47 <uorygl> The pink elephants are too small to be seen with our technology.
00:06:00 <uorygl> And the two people on it live underground.
00:06:37 <alise> No, I'm making it falsifiable.
00:06:45 <uorygl> Oh.
00:06:46 <alise> "We will be able to visit it in N years; it is N miles away"
00:06:51 <uorygl> Oh, I see.
00:06:56 <alise> Perfectly falsifiable: but let's say it's a really boring region of space, and nobody bothers.
00:07:04 <alise> Countless aeons pass. Still no more likely.
00:07:06 <uorygl> I didn't see that that statement was a refinement of the hypothesis.
00:07:14 * uorygl nods.
00:07:26 <alise> If people were /actively trying/ to disprove it, and they didn't, then it'd become more likely.
00:07:37 <alise> (But it'd take a bloody long infinity for it to become 1.)
00:09:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:09:52 <bsmntbombdood> alise: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54709
00:10:11 <alise> there are many like that
00:10:20 <alise> including some with a really heavy zalman metal case, you know that thing
00:10:29 <alise> question is how much powah can you get.
00:11:59 <alise> a totally silent computer is interesting in the psychological effect --
00:12:06 <alise> the computer would become completely ambient, it would make no disruption
00:16:07 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/Silverstone_ST45NF_PSU
00:16:16 <bsmntbombdood> there's your fanless psu
00:18:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
00:19:55 <alise> do you mean your as in the one i linked?
00:20:03 <alise> because i linked it
00:20:13 <bsmntbombdood> didn't see
00:20:43 <alise> yeah not a spcr review though http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=silverstone_nightjar_450&num=1
00:20:46 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
00:20:47 <alise> what google gave me
00:20:51 <alise> 450w is pretty fucking good
00:20:57 <alise> you could run an i7 and an okay graphics card off that.
00:21:01 <bsmntbombdood> indeed
00:21:06 <alise> would want megahalems for the i7 mos def
00:21:14 <bsmntbombdood> it probably needs some airflow though
00:21:27 <alise> and probably one of the videocards that can be ran fanless /without/ a crazy cooler that overheats
00:22:08 <alise> bsmntbombdood: I dunno man
00:22:19 <alise> open the back of the case entirely (with maybe some dust filter stuff)
00:22:21 <alise> or something
00:22:25 <alise> let natural airflow take care of it
00:22:30 <alise> maybe i7 is a bit excessive
00:22:33 <alise> bet i5 could take it though
00:23:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
00:23:51 <bsmntbombdood> i wonder how much passive airflow you'll get from the cpu sink
00:24:36 * uorygl listens to his MacBook.
00:24:48 <uorygl> Yep, it's making sound.
00:25:21 <uorygl> But it's drowned out by the sounds of birds and rustling leaves outside, my dad cooking, my little brother banging stuff, and other appliances.
00:25:23 <alise> Of course it is.
00:25:45 <alise> No birds and leaves at 12:25 am; nor much cooking going on. Only child, and no appliances are on.
00:25:55 <alise> And this is the ooold computer I'm on. Whirrrrrrr.
00:26:01 * uorygl nods.
00:31:30 <alise> bsmntbombdood: remember those crazy watercooling solutions we talked about?
00:31:34 <bsmntbombdood> no
00:31:51 <alise> putting everything in one big loop, then getting a large house radiator
00:32:02 <alise> that can handle like 2,600 w
00:32:05 <alise> and just pluggin 'er in
00:33:00 <alise> "The funny thing is, I never noticed my LCD whine until after reading this post. It has a very quiet, very high frequency line."
00:33:00 <alise> FUCKKKK
00:33:09 <alise> i can hear it now
00:33:16 <alise> oh my goddd
00:33:18 <uorygl> Heh heh.
00:33:19 <alise> kill me
00:33:25 <alise> i'm going to have to commit suicide.
00:33:55 * uorygl attempts to listen to an LCD whine.
00:34:09 <bsmntbombdood> you could put the psu in another room
00:34:26 <uorygl> I think I hear it.
00:34:37 <uorygl> I think my tinnitus is louder than that.
00:35:40 <bsmntbombdood> i hate all the armchair engineering that goes into reviewing heatsinks
00:36:13 <alise> I used to think I had tinnitus but I think everyone hears whining when things are silent.
00:36:20 <bsmntbombdood> something that has 8 heatpipes MUST be better than something 6
00:36:20 <uorygl> That's called tinnitus.
00:36:26 <alise> bsmntbombdood: in all fairness mike chin knows what he's doing
00:36:33 <alise> maybe you meant someone else
00:36:39 <alise> uorygl: no because tinnitus is a condition and it's constant
00:36:49 <bsmntbombdood> this heatsink doesn't have a mirror finish, it must suck
00:36:51 <uorygl> Hmm.
00:37:25 <alise> bsmntbombdood: now that's ridiculous, spcr certainly doesn't say such bullshit
00:37:34 <bsmntbombdood> wasn't talking about spcr
00:37:41 <alise> ok :)
00:37:50 <alise> yeah hardware review sites almost always suck
00:37:54 <alise> ... i like ananadtech though
00:41:32 <uorygl> Now I want to take a hearing test.
00:45:58 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.jab-tech.com/YATE-LOON-120mm-Case-Fan-D12SL-12-pr-3009.html
00:50:32 <bsmntbombdood> and, http://www.jab-tech.com/Scythe-KAMA-FLEX-80-mm-Silent-Case-Fan-Medium-Speed-SA0825FDB12M-pr-4111.html
00:57:22 <alise> bsmntbombdood: the nexus fans are meant to be good.
00:57:36 <alise> yate loon is apparently the same manufacturer as the nexus fans, but less reliable quality
00:57:37 <alise> (and thus cheaper)
00:57:42 <alise> they're kinda oldschool i gather
00:57:44 <bsmntbombdood> yate loon = nexus
00:57:49 <alise> scythe are excellent.
00:57:51 <alise> bsmntbombdood: no
00:57:55 <alise> different manufacturer, yes
00:57:58 <alise> but nexus have better QC
01:02:10 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article114-page1.html
01:02:13 <bsmntbombdood> that looks nice
01:04:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:05:10 -!- augur has joined.
01:06:34 -!- Oranjer has joined.
01:15:47 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article601-page1.html
01:15:51 <bsmntbombdood> that's interesting
01:16:04 <alise> most everything on spcr is
01:16:12 <alise> the picopsu is awesome
01:16:18 <alise> but only usable for low power situations obviously
01:16:22 <alise> even the higher watt brick you attach it to has a fan
01:16:28 <alise> so you need to use the lower one
01:16:32 <bsmntbombdood> use 2
01:17:12 <alise> 240 watts, I can barely contain my excitement
01:17:20 <alise> "No, use 50!" Now your computer is overheating.
01:17:33 <alise> besides, they're $50 a pop.
01:17:51 <alise> "Although the power brick is sold separately, Mini-box supplied two power bricks to test alongside the picoPSU, one rated for 80W, the other for either 110W or 120W (depending on which numbers you believe)."
01:18:02 <alise> the latter has a cooling fan ("on heavy load" -- most of the time with one of these, surely)
01:18:09 <alise> so basically you get ... eighty watts!
01:18:53 <bsmntbombdood> would be perfect for an itty bitty system to build inside house walls or something
01:19:00 <alise> house walls? why?
01:19:15 <alise> for like a kiosk thing? meh
01:19:21 <alise> would be v. nice for a media pc of some sort.
01:19:33 <bsmntbombdood> wouldn't it be cool to have a computer you couldn't see?
01:19:37 <alise> i'm imagining a big tv plugged into a teeny weeny computer running mythtv and all that kinda stuff
01:19:43 <alise> bsmntbombdood: well yes, but imagine maintaining it
01:19:46 <alise> or would you put a door in the wall
01:19:48 <alise> :P
01:19:53 <bsmntbombdood> no, that's the point
01:19:55 <bsmntbombdood> you can't find it
01:19:59 <alise> lol
01:20:03 <alise> wireless monitor
01:20:06 <alise> or is it just audio
01:20:11 <alise> like making ghost noises from the wall
01:20:18 <alise> woooh, it's a pc
01:20:23 <bsmntbombdood> wifi, duh
01:20:29 <alise> yeah wifi monitor
01:20:33 <bsmntbombdood> jesus, have you no imagination?
01:20:43 <alise> i'm joking, sir
01:22:06 <bsmntbombdood> put a couple terabytes storage
01:22:34 <bsmntbombdood> couldn't do that with that power supply though
01:22:45 <alise> precisely :P
01:22:53 <alise> well, 2tb drives don't have too bad power requirements i think
01:22:58 <alise> a network storage device would work better :P
01:27:54 -!- augur has changed nick to DalekEmperor.
01:28:03 <Gregor> EXTERMINATE
01:28:04 -!- DalekEmperor has changed nick to AUGUR.
01:28:08 -!- AUGUR has changed nick to augur.
01:29:29 <bsmntbombdood> you could also put the power brick far enough away not to hear it
01:30:58 -!- cheater3 has joined.
01:31:53 <alise> bsmntbombdood: that is just cheating though.
01:32:00 <alise> also, after /too/ far it'll run into problems
01:32:04 <alise> and after not far enough you will hear it easy.
01:32:09 <alise> silence vs a little noise = a lot
01:34:33 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
01:34:34 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: You could just use the fanless power brick. :)
01:37:50 <alise> 80w
01:39:02 <pikhq> Requires some doing, but quite feasible.
01:39:29 <pikhq> Especially if you're going for no-moving-parts.
01:40:14 <alise> but the point is that you can get a 0-fan pc doing much more than 80w
01:40:30 <alise> there are fanless 450w supplies; use them at 100-200w and you'll only need minimal airflow
01:40:39 <alise> be very careful and use a bit less and you'll only need natural airflow
01:40:43 <alise> (you'd def. want heatpipes somewhere else)
01:40:52 <pikhq> True.
01:40:56 <alise> really the best solution is: bunch of heatpipes + fucking gigantic radiator
01:41:10 <alise> but you would have to completely custom-do the heatpipes because i don't think you could mod the zalman easily to go to an external radiator.
01:41:12 <pikhq> The picoPSU is something you'd want for, say, something hooked into your TV running MythTV.
01:41:21 <alise> with that though you'd be able to handle a modern pc, save maybe graphics card
01:41:37 <alise> get two stonking great radiators and you'd be able to have a good processor and graphics card
01:41:45 <alise> of course: this will cost thousands to do the heatpipes & also get the house radiators.
01:41:50 <alise> and you will have to make it all yourself
01:41:52 <pikhq> Yes.
01:42:00 <alise> but if you did it... that would be utter perfection.
01:42:03 <alise> Now where are you going to put the radiators?
01:42:29 <alise> My wall of my room in the previous Hexham house that my computer stood at had a down-staircase on the other side.
01:42:38 <alise> I was actually thinking about drilling through my wall, running watercooling cables through,
01:42:44 <alise> and mounting a gigantic household radiator on the wall of the stairs.
01:42:55 <alise> That way it would stay cool in my room and I'd still have some inkling of space...
01:43:03 <alise> Better hope that radiator's held up securely though /wince
01:52:36 <Sgeo> alise, why are you using WinCE?
01:52:50 <alise> What?!
01:52:53 <alise> Oh.
01:58:07 -!- augur has changed nick to DalekEmperor.
01:58:58 -!- DalekEmperor has changed nick to augur.
02:01:48 <alise> city
02:09:32 <alise> Death on a (pogo) stick.
02:14:44 <alise> http://gunshowcomic.com/comics/20090930.png
02:20:35 -!- augur has changed nick to DalekEmperor.
02:20:45 -!- DalekEmperor has changed nick to augur.
02:32:26 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
02:47:41 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:01:24 <bsmntbombdood> what's the point of a set-top box that can't handle 1080p?
03:03:17 <augur> alise
03:03:18 <augur> http://gunshowcomic.com/d/20100422.html
03:03:21 <augur> you are the rabbit in the igloo
03:03:25 <pikhq> 1080p is pretty easy to do with a low-power-usage computer.
03:03:41 <alise> i am always the rabbit in the igloo
03:03:49 <pikhq> Low power usage for a computer still gets you "able to decode h.264 in real time with ease".
03:03:49 <alise> also that page isn't loading for me :/
03:04:12 <bsmntbombdood> pikhq: really?
03:04:21 <augur> http://gunshowcomic.com/comics/20100422.gif
03:04:31 <pikhq> Yes. Modern CPUs are both crazy fast *and* don't use that much power.
03:05:05 <pikhq> My *last* CPU was able to decode 1080p h.264 in real time. And it would be a good 7 years old now. (and it was single core.)
03:05:53 <alise> now have 1080p h.264 and aac audio packed in matroshka or however you spell it
03:06:05 <pikhq> alise: Matroska.
03:06:09 <pikhq> And yes. Done that.
03:06:13 <alise> i'm not sure your old pc could really handle realtime 1080p h.264... that stuff is pretty hardcore
03:06:17 <alise> you need about 3ghz single-core iirc
03:06:20 <alise> or about 2ghz dual-core
03:06:26 <pikhq> It used about all of my CPU.
03:06:30 <alise> i guess it could be a good cpu from 7 years old
03:06:35 <alise> *ago
03:07:05 <bsmntbombdood> what was top of the line 7 years ago?
03:07:23 <pikhq> Erm. 7? More like 5. XD
03:07:24 <alise> i dunno
03:07:27 <alise> shit shittingham by Shitco
03:07:45 <alise> (technical term)
03:08:13 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Some Athlon 64...
03:08:49 <pikhq> This was just a *bit* before Intel trashed Pentium 4 for good, IIRC.
03:09:05 <bsmntbombdood> x2?
03:09:14 <alise> probably not.
03:09:16 <pikhq> Wait, they shipped P4s up until 2008?
03:09:21 <pikhq> What the fuck Intel?
03:09:21 <alise> dual-core came to fashion with the core 2 duo i think
03:09:32 <alise> pikhq: they're just sooo good
03:09:40 <pikhq> Yeah, I hadn't purchased an x2.
03:09:56 <alise> there's an athlon 64 x2 in this machine right now
03:12:41 <pikhq> My current system can encode h.264 (... 480p) in faster-than-realtime.
03:12:54 <alise> yeah 480p :P
03:13:00 <pikhq> (never bothered to check how much faster; I generally start the makefile before I go to sleep.)
03:13:04 <alise> 1080p h.264 is just glorious
03:13:08 <pikhq> It is.
03:13:24 <alise> the problem is that the real world doesn't have enough details to take full advantage.
03:13:25 <alise> :(
03:13:32 <alise> we should just meticulously draw everything
03:13:37 <pikhq> Pity my monitor is too cheap to display it.
03:13:40 <bsmntbombdood> alise: indeed
03:13:50 <pikhq> (it's 1440x900)
03:13:52 <bsmntbombdood> speaking of 1080p, i need a new hard drive
03:13:57 <alise> lol
03:14:05 <alise> bsmntbombdood: 2TB is all the rage. get two, RAID 0 them
03:14:06 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: MOAR TERABYTES
03:14:08 <alise> (just keep backups you bum)
03:14:13 <bsmntbombdood> raid0 ftl
03:14:14 <alise> 4TB of sex for about $400.
03:14:18 <bsmntbombdood> also, http://www.mini-box.com/PW-200M-DC-DC-power-supply?sc=8&category=13
03:14:25 <pikhq> Get four, RAID5 them.
03:14:26 <alise> so what, you are keeping backups right?
03:14:28 <alise> so raid0 it.
03:14:37 <bsmntbombdood> a 200w picopsu style
03:14:49 <alise> yeah with a fan component
03:14:53 <alise> solid-state ftw!
03:15:36 <alise> Clearly the next step in solid-state computing is eInk, to get rid of that pesky whine and distracting backlight.
03:16:00 <bsmntbombdood> no fan...
03:16:08 <alise> surely in the power brick.
03:16:39 <bsmntbombdood> oh
03:16:49 <bsmntbombdood> laptops generally have fanless power bricks
03:17:08 <alise> and also v. low power
03:17:08 <alise> we're talking 40-60w here
03:17:13 <alise> even the picopsu one can handle 80w 100% fanless
03:17:48 <bsmntbombdood> wtf are you talking about
03:18:16 <alise> what do you mean
03:18:21 <alise> eh
03:18:28 <alise> we should just get a bunch of flux capacitors
03:18:31 <alise> can power anything
03:18:39 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.mini-box.com/picoUPS-100-12V-DC-micro-UPS-system-battery-backup-system?sc=8&category=1264
03:18:40 <bsmntbombdood> bwahahaha
03:18:53 <alise> lol
03:20:15 <bsmntbombdood> hmmmmm
03:20:27 <bsmntbombdood> how many watt-hours are in a 12v car battery?
03:20:33 <alise> just use the 400-500whatever one
03:20:39 <alise> no fan at all
03:20:39 <alise> simple
03:21:03 <alise> just open all the holes in the case you can, and make sure the cpu heatsink is comfortably away from it
03:21:18 <alise> then use a low-power graphics card so you don't need a hefty heatsink because it has little heat output
03:21:21 <alise> job done
03:22:32 <bsmntbombdood> picopsu is cool just because it's so small
03:22:49 <alise> make the smallest modern x86 computer you can
03:22:57 <alise> problem is... all mobos are pretty big
03:23:03 <alise> I think mini-ITX is the smallest?
03:23:43 <alise> so get a low-power cpu with a very small heatsink so that it doesn't take up much height, stick a picopsu on it, a tiny (say the 18 series of intel SSDs) drive, leave the rest to the mobo
03:23:49 <alise> custom-make a tiny plastic case for it
03:23:55 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile-ITX
03:24:29 <bsmntbombdood> that's called a smartphone...
03:24:54 <alise> smartphones aren't regular x86 puters
03:25:12 <pikhq> That's x86.
03:25:19 <alise> oh you mean mobile-itx?
03:25:21 <alise> the page hasn't loaded yet
03:25:22 <alise> stupid 3g
03:25:29 <bsmntbombdood> why limit yourself to x86?
03:25:36 <alise> "regular" puter
03:25:39 <alise> puter puter puter
03:25:41 <alise> such a silly word
03:25:43 <alise> puter
03:25:51 <pikhq> Mobile-ITX is 60mm by 60mm. Though it gets a little bit larger due to the needed IO breakout board.
03:27:37 <pikhq> There's also PC/104. 96mm by 90mm, peripherals attached via sticking the board on top.
03:30:23 <alise> djb has published a new standard-workstation list of parts & software & stuff since 2005 every one or two years... and since 2006 all of them have been minor revisions with "I haven't assembled it yet, see the 2006 instructions"
03:30:26 <alise> why bother, man, why bother
03:30:28 <alise> you haven't even tried it :P
03:31:03 <pikhq> Hah.
03:31:20 <alise> also dammit i really wish core i7 supported ecc /sigh
03:32:45 <alise> I'd go AMD, but AMD processors suck.
03:33:37 <bsmntbombdood> pay extra for a xeon
03:33:47 <alise> bsmntbombdood: "no"
03:33:59 <alise> have to get special mobo, costs a lot more, iffiness about heatsinks, different socket etc.
03:34:19 <pikhq> Xeons are at a "bend over and take it" price point.
03:40:19 <Gregor> 's a good price point :P
03:40:27 -!- alise has left (?).
03:40:29 -!- alise has joined.
03:49:23 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117191&cm_re=xeon-_-19-117-191-_-Product
03:49:26 <bsmntbombdood> come on, that's not too bad
04:11:48 <alise> now add all the other ghosts, and see my other complaints
04:22:43 <bsmntbombdood> ghosts?
04:24:02 <bsmntbombdood> i'm going to have some tea
04:24:11 <alise> er, costs
04:24:13 <alise> not ghosts
04:24:16 <alise> bsmntbombdood: dammit, I want tea
04:24:19 <alise> you're such an english fucker
04:25:50 <pikhq> Fuck it. I'm getting some tea too.
04:26:41 <pikhq> Mmm, delicously delicious Earl Grey.
04:29:17 <alise> You know what?
04:29:18 <alise> Fuck you guys.
04:29:53 <pikhq> You mean there's a British person without tea?
04:30:03 <alise> To obtain tea I would have to:
04:30:15 <alise> - go downstairs; a laborous task
04:30:18 <alise> - find tea
04:30:20 <alise> - prepare tea
04:30:24 <alise> - walk back upstairs
04:30:34 <pikhq> I could've sworn the need for tea was so ingrained into the British genome that it was still quite noticable several generations removed from Britain.
04:30:35 <alise> Not only am I tired and I should really sleep as it's 4:30 am, but...
04:30:38 <alise> naw.
04:30:44 <alise> pikhq: SADLY NOT.
04:30:50 <alise> I don't even know if there's any decent tea here.
04:30:59 <pikhq> I mean, I still have quite a need for tea.
04:31:08 <alise> You're just crazy.
04:31:33 <alise> pikhq: You wouldn't even believe it, there are people here who put COW'S MILK in tea! Only Douglas Adams is allowed to do that!
04:31:53 <pikhq> ... You mean there's people who don't do that?
04:31:59 <pikhq> What heathens.
04:32:11 <alise> YOU LUNATIC!
04:32:20 * pikhq dances before the moon
04:32:26 <alise> *ere
04:32:28 <bsmntbombdood> i have lapsang suochong
04:34:22 <pikhq> The traditional hanzi for that is... ?
04:34:37 * pikhq wikipedes
04:35:20 <bsmntbombdood> 拉普山小種
04:35:24 <pikhq> "拉普山小種". Okay, that's straightforward enough.
04:35:31 <alise> wikiPEDOS
04:35:37 <alise> anyway seriously FUCK. YOU. GUYS
04:35:54 <alise> I expect you to lodge me & provide tea at my convenience as payment for this travesty
04:36:04 <bsmntbombdood> http://anandtech.com/show/825/4
04:36:06 <pikhq> "Small variety from the mountain Lap", apparently.
04:36:09 <bsmntbombdood> lol, cpu coolers from 2001
04:36:29 <pikhq> alise: Learn Japanese and maybe I will. :P
04:36:38 <alise> NO
04:36:41 <alise> ...well, okay.
04:36:48 <pikhq> (no reason for that except to make you squirm.)
04:36:55 <alise> Can I pay you [learn Japanese] after you provide me with the service?
04:36:58 <pikhq> (though you *do* have the time. :P)
04:37:00 <alise> I'll sign a contract!
04:37:07 <alise> No I don't... not right now at least.
04:37:11 <alise> (I'm too braindead on weekdays to.)
04:37:34 <pikhq> I strongly suspect a major portion of that is boredom.
04:37:45 <pikhq> Belive you me, boredom makes your brain fucking *dead*.
04:38:00 <alise> and being woken up at 7am every day.
04:38:05 <alise> that helps too
04:38:11 <bsmntbombdood> yeah
04:38:17 <bsmntbombdood> i think i've been getting dumber
04:38:26 <alise> bsmntbombdood: how old are you
04:38:29 <pikhq> Yeah, that's just cruelty to anyone younger than, say, 25.
04:38:34 <bsmntbombdood> 100
04:38:44 <alise> bsmntbombdood: presumably in binary
04:39:08 <pikhq> So, 4b10.
04:39:32 <alise> so, today I learned that in third grade, Eliezer Yudkowsky bit his math teacher because she didn't know what a logarithm was
04:39:43 <alise> which is just brilliant
04:39:50 <pikhq> Beautiful.
04:39:59 <pikhq> Also, how can you not know what a logarithm is?
04:40:06 <pikhq> I mean *god* that's basic.
04:40:11 <bsmntbombdood> 10100 in binary
04:40:16 <alise> Well, I didn't when I was that age, but that's only because the state education system was tainting my mind.
04:40:32 <bsmntbombdood> one of my coworkers was trying to get me to explain logarithms to her the other day
04:40:33 <alise> I was dumb right up until approximately the time I dropped out.
04:40:43 <bsmntbombdood> she couldn't get it
04:40:54 <alise> well your mind shouldn't be going at 20 unless you were exceptionally smart before
04:41:00 <alise> so i conclude you're just thinking you're getting dumber!
04:41:21 <bsmntbombdood> oh jesus christ
04:41:24 <bsmntbombdood> see what i mean?
04:41:30 <alise> what
04:41:39 <bsmntbombdood> i meant 10011
04:41:40 <alise> ...what
04:41:43 <alise> lol
04:41:45 <alise> fair enough then
04:42:04 <alise> pikhq: To make it even more awesome, I learned this as part of the only Harry Potter fanfiction to invoke quantum physics and Bayesian probability... why Yudkowsky wrote it I've no idea: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5782108/1/Harry_Potter_and_the_Methods_of_Rationality
04:42:14 <alise> ("You turned into a cat! A SMALL cat!")
04:42:15 <pikhq> alise: Hahahah.
04:42:26 <alise> It is quite thoroughly awesome though.
04:42:48 <pikhq> He *actually wrote* a HP fanfiction?
04:42:55 <pikhq> Wow.
04:43:19 <alise> It's 17 chapters long so far!
04:43:27 <alise> It's amazing, in a kind of this-is-an-utterly-pointless-exercise way.
04:43:29 <bsmntbombdood> hrm
04:43:33 <bsmntbombdood> i want to build another computer
04:43:36 <pikhq> Heheh.
04:43:40 <alise> bsmntbombdood: make it solid state
04:43:48 <alise> i encourage you to read it
04:44:05 <bsmntbombdood> alise: something like that
04:44:18 <alise> bsmntbombdood: it'd be awesome
04:44:32 <alise> you could use it as your main machine and keep the powerhouse in some network'd cupboard
04:44:40 <alise> and then make a command "faster" which sends commands to it
04:44:47 <alise> $ gcc ... huge.c
04:44:49 <alise> ^C
04:44:51 <alise> $ faster gcc ... huge.c
04:44:53 <alise> zOMG SPEED
04:44:54 <alise> $
04:45:20 <bsmntbombdood> what's the name of the thing i'm thinking of??
04:45:31 <alise> what is that thing
04:45:47 <bsmntbombdood> did "faster" automatically
04:45:52 <bsmntbombdood> no longer developed iirc
04:45:58 <alise> ccache?
04:45:59 <alise> distcc?
04:46:03 <alise> i assume we're talking cc stuff
04:46:07 <alise> rather than auto shellout stuff
04:46:08 <pikhq> Single-image multiprocessing?
04:46:12 <alise> i dunno what ccache's actually called
04:46:16 <alise> almost 5am damn
04:46:16 <pikhq> Erm. Clustering.
04:46:25 <bsmntbombdood> no
04:46:43 <bsmntbombdood> general purpose, it would migrate processes back and forth as need
04:47:05 <pikhq> Single-system image clustering.
04:47:36 <pikhq> There's many implementations of it.
04:48:37 <bsmntbombdood> ah, MOSIX is what i was thinking of
04:48:58 <pikhq> MOSIX is still developed, though OpenMOSIX isn't.
04:54:11 <Gregor> I thought MOSIX wasn't even developed when it was developed.
04:54:22 <alise> Mo' six plz
04:54:33 <alise> MOSIX: MAN POSIX!
04:54:35 <alise> POSIX for MEN!
04:57:20 <pikhq> Gregor: Hah.
04:57:41 <alise> I got 99 problems but POSIX ain't one
05:28:50 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:29:25 -!- Alex3012 has joined.
05:34:28 <alise> Ah, I can't wait until I can be awake at this bedtime without a nagging feeling of doubt.
05:38:06 <Sgeo> glasses++
05:38:28 <alise> Sgeo: You are now wearing two pairs of glasses?? EXTRAORDINARY!
05:38:42 <bsmntbombdood> blargh, i still can't decide what heatsink to get
05:38:53 <alise> bsmntbombdood: Terahalems
05:38:59 <alise> Like Megahalems, but moreso.
05:39:00 <Sgeo> alise, ++ only increments by one. Go back to C-like languages 101?
05:39:06 <alise> They take up 3 average office blocks.
05:39:50 <alise> Sgeo: Well, if you're the kind of person who needs glasses, you probably put them on every day, and you certainly don't mention it every day. So this has to be some special occurrence, not regular glasses-putting-on. If you need glasses you probably already have them on. So you'd be wearing two pairs. If you didn't need glasses, it's unlikely you'd have a reason to put them on just now.
05:39:57 <alise> So the most likely explanation is that you are now wearing two pairs of glasses.
05:40:55 <Sgeo> Or, I'm the kind of person who can see perfectly well without glasses, but who has better depth perception with glasses
05:41:16 <alise> Then it is strange to mention such a common event as putting on your glasses in here.
05:41:29 <alise> Although you do do that quite a lot; I should have adjusted my estimate accordingly.
05:41:31 <alise> Ho hum!
05:41:34 <Sgeo> I recently [minutes ago] got a hold of these glasses
05:41:46 <Sgeo> Haven't worn glasses since 2007 I think
05:41:58 <Sgeo> So no, it is not a common occurance
05:42:53 <alise> Then you've been living with bad depth perception for that time? Knowingly?
05:43:00 <alise> Or is this a recently-discovered thing?
05:43:11 <Sgeo> Knowingly
05:43:35 <alise> Well that's silly.
05:46:53 <alise> Shit, it is almost 6 am!
05:54:54 -!- alise_ has joined.
05:55:01 <alise_> abc
05:55:43 <pikhq> 6 am? Hold out for 5 am, alise!
05:55:44 <pikhq> :P
05:55:58 <alise_> -wut
05:56:29 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
05:56:30 <pikhq> Just another 23 hours.
05:56:43 <pikhq> You could even get some tea to help you.
05:56:49 <alise_> pikhq: You realise that a few hours after /that/, I will have to go back to the Place?
05:56:56 <pikhq> Yes.
05:57:00 <alise_> And that I can barely function with one day's sleep deprivation?
05:57:05 <pikhq> Yes.
05:57:18 <alise_> Although one day looks likely now, much as I hate to admit it (as I seem to think that not admitting it will prevent it)...
05:57:29 <alise_> Happened last week too; why Friday night but not Saturday I wonder?
05:57:36 <alise_> (Do I sleep, that is.)
05:57:43 <alise_> Tea would be nice though. But what if things get boring?
05:57:44 <pikhq> Do you realise that I find it hard to be serious?
05:58:21 <alise_> I know, I know. But your advice is telling me to do things that I want to do, against my better judgement.
05:58:32 <alise_> So I'm trying to make you refine it into something close but slightly more reasonable and serious.
05:58:46 <alise_> Which you should probably not do, even though it won't change anything.
05:58:57 <alise_> Jesus christ, I wish I could just replace myself with a very small, rational, program.
05:59:46 <pikhq> I strongly suggest you spend the next week asleep and wake up refreshed and free on Friday night.
06:01:27 <alise_> Another facet of my irrationality is that I find it very hard to disobey when the idiotic knocks on the door - like I'm some sort of young child who isn't /intentionally/ not getting out of bed - progress from "<time>; time to get up" from "Are you not up yet?! It's <time> to eight! Gasp!".
06:01:54 <alise_> Plus they'd probably just get oh-so-worried and assign someone to keep watch on me 24/7 like they do with some of the others (and I mean that 24 literally).
06:03:16 <alise_> Yawn. My life there has progressed from intolerable in so many subtle ways, to merely so boring it's hard to think of anything moreso.
06:05:17 <alise_> Also --
06:05:22 <alise_> pikhq: Cookies! Have you ever thought about cookies?
06:05:31 <alise_> Oh, I even forgot. I go mad when I don't sleep.
06:06:16 <pikhq> alise_: How long until you start hallucinating?
06:06:42 <Sgeo> We need an op in here, stat!
06:06:57 <alise_> The most I have managed is on the order of 40 hours. I didn't hallucinate, but in the day or so before I was talking about metacampfires, which did verily descend into recursion infinitely, and also how stupid me sneezing on to my hand was.
06:07:05 <alise_> In the same paragraph.
06:07:21 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
06:07:45 <alise_> It's funny because there's a kind of inner calm sane person in my head, with the sort of skewy effects of tiredness on top, and it's kind of mocking me while I type out really ridiculous stuff drowsily.
06:08:20 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
06:09:02 <alise_> pikhq: what time is it in the American States, United?
06:12:07 <pikhq> alise_: 17:08 UTC+12, 15:08 Chamorro, 02:08 Atlantic, 01:08 Eastern, 00:08 Central, 11:08 Mountain, 10:08 Pacific, 09:08 Alaska, 08:08 Hawaii-Aleutian, 07:08 Samoan, 06:08 UTC-12.
06:12:19 <alise_> pikhq: heh -- and I just started to type "IT'S ANSWER TIME", too.
06:12:20 <pikhq> That covers all time zones in US territory.
06:12:39 <alise_> well I can safely discard Alaska, and I'm sure the UTC12s...
06:12:39 <pikhq> (UTC+12 and UTC-12 because the islands in them do not have defined time zones, and thus use nautical time)
06:12:46 <alise_> Chamorro too, and Hawaii.
06:13:04 <alise_> And Samoan.
06:13:06 <alise_> So we have 2:08 Atlantic, 1:08 Eastern, 0:08 Central, 11:08 Mountain, 10:08 Pacific.
06:13:18 <alise_> Is that 10/11 p.m. or a.m.?
06:13:21 <pikhq> Also Atlantic.
06:13:26 <alise_> I'd assume the former, but your two-digit hours confuse me.
06:13:31 <pikhq> Which is Puerto Rico.
06:13:35 <pikhq> Those are 24-hour.
06:13:48 <alise_> I did not know there was such disrepancy.
06:13:56 <alise_> 1:08 to 11:08; gosh.
06:13:56 <Rugxulo> it's a little after midnight here
06:14:07 <alise_> In fact I'm instinctively denying it.
06:14:14 <pikhq> alise_: Dude, the US is about the size of *Europe*.
06:14:23 <alise_> I know, but it clashes with my expectations so much.
06:14:34 <alise_> You guys have to... plan... think... about talking to someone in the SAME COUNTRY AS YOU because of time.
06:14:35 <alise_> Whoa.
06:14:36 <alise_> Uh, let me rephrase. What time is it where you are, right now?
06:14:42 <pikhq> 00:14.
06:14:55 <alise_> That's better.
06:15:00 <pikhq> What's crazy is how our time zones are defined.
06:15:04 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US-Timezones.svg
06:15:04 <alise_> So you won't be here to support my folly soon enough; woe.
06:15:08 <pikhq> What about this makes sense?
06:15:13 <alise_> Or, at least, unless you pull an all-nighter too, which I doubt.
06:15:27 <pikhq> Probably go to bed in a couple of hours.
06:15:28 <alise_> Aah, certain people are going to be pissed at me when they wake up.
06:15:33 <alise_> Why do I do this to myself?
06:16:52 <alise_> See, now I hate you for implanting the stay-awake seed in my mind.
06:17:00 <Rugxulo> latest lame Befunge creation: http://www.pastebin.org/197670
06:17:13 <alise_> Doesn't seem reversible, either: 6:16 am; give the time it takes me to finally convince myself; then the time to do it; and it's morning already.
06:17:24 <alise_> I will take my anger out on Rugxulo. Fuck you! Grr. >_>
06:17:59 <pikhq> Anyways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Timezones2008.png See that size?
06:18:01 <Rugxulo> I guess it's too late (early?) for fizzie and AnMaster, I have a dumb question for one or both of them
06:18:08 <pikhq> Multiple time zones make sense for the US.
06:18:15 <alise_> Don't talk about time, Rugxulo.
06:18:18 <Rugxulo> except Arizona in their infinite wisdom
06:18:18 <alise_> Dooo not talk about time.
06:18:31 <alise_> pikhq: why are they segregated into nice little boundaries.
06:18:31 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Arizona is just silly.
06:18:54 <pikhq> alise_: What, the time zones?
06:19:10 <pikhq> Those are generally county lines in the US.
06:19:30 <alise_> What is that area, that does not observe DST?
06:19:36 <pikhq> Arizona.
06:20:04 <pikhq> The parts of Arizona that are not an Indian reservation, specifically.
06:21:01 <alise_> cool, Arizona be cool
06:21:02 <alise_> DST is shit
06:21:03 <pikhq> (an Indian nation, being simultaneously a sovereign nation and part of the US, sets its own time zone. (and no, that does not make any sense to me either))
06:21:06 <alise_> shitbags on a pogo stick
06:21:16 <pikhq> There's also Hawaii that doesn't do DST.
06:21:24 <alise_> hawaii coo
06:21:27 <alise_> can i sleep now, wanna sleep
06:21:30 <alise_> feel stupid when no sleepy
06:22:07 <alise_> So I waste one day of my weekend. How stupid am I?!
06:22:09 <alise_> sdfkd[g
06:22:39 <Rugxulo> pikhq, dumb question but does every state have an Indian reservation?
06:22:43 <Rugxulo> (I know ours does)
06:22:57 <alise_> I'm an Indian reservation
06:22:59 <alise_> and I need to pee.
06:23:02 <alise_> too tired to pee though
06:23:18 <Rugxulo> huh, GCC 4.4.4 released two days ago
06:23:27 <Rugxulo> funny how they do that even when 4.5.0 is out
06:24:33 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Most do.
06:24:41 <pikhq> What's really bizarre is that we spend *most* of the year in DST...
06:24:45 <alise_> I want to - this is all you fauuuuult
06:24:49 <alise_> i hate you
06:27:42 * Sgeo is considering getting an iPad for his step-mother's mother
06:28:03 <alise_> Getting someone an iPad: Always a bad idea.
06:28:11 <alise_> Also, why?
06:28:34 <Sgeo> She wants me to teach her how to use the computer. So why not get her something that's very simple to use?
06:28:55 <Sgeo> And that will be hers
06:28:58 <alise_> Because the iPad doesn't teach you how to use a computer... but it probably would teach her how to do what she wants, yes...
06:29:01 <alise_> Hmm...
06:29:06 <alise_> That's actually such a disturbing idea I'm afraid of it.
06:29:16 <alise_> Apple have found an amazing market and filled it with PURE EVIL.
06:29:25 <alise_> And the PURE EVIL is /great technology/...
06:29:34 <alise_> Ineedsleep
06:31:54 <Rugxulo> get her a netbook instead
06:32:04 <alise_> Running what?
06:32:05 <Rugxulo> you could drop the iPad easier
06:32:10 <alise_> Windows? Almost impossible to use.
06:32:16 <alise_> Linux? Not really suitable for this, in any of its incarnations.
06:32:22 <alise_> OS X? Doesn't come in netbook form; not suitable.
06:32:26 <Rugxulo> how so? I'm not in love with Windows by any means, but it's not impossible ... surely easier to maintain
06:32:38 <alise_> Maintain? We're talking someone who /does not know how to use a computer/.
06:32:40 <Rugxulo> there are some good netbook Linuxes, from what I've read
06:32:46 <alise_> Windows is only easy because we've used it for so long.
06:32:53 <Rugxulo> I mean "maintain" as in "it's more popular, so more people can help teach her"
06:32:59 <alise_> This woman almost certainly wants to -- use email. The web. And that is about it.
06:33:00 <Rugxulo> yes
06:33:05 <Rugxulo> netbook
06:33:09 <alise_> So? It's hard to mess up a few taps -- and I dislike the iPad, note.
06:33:14 <Rugxulo> heck, make it dual boot if you're that worried
06:33:17 <Rugxulo> or use VirtualBox
06:33:19 <alise_> I don't think you quite grasp the concept of usability.
06:33:25 <alise_> That would make the problem... indescribably worse.
06:33:31 <alise_> I guess that's what you get from someone who likes DOS...
06:33:37 <Rugxulo> ;-)
06:33:44 <Rugxulo> DOSEMU or DOSBox ftw!! ;-)
06:33:50 <Rugxulo> at least I ain't suggesting BefOS :-P
06:34:20 <alise_> Sgeo: Get her an iPad if and only if you are sure she will never use a computer in a greater capacity than what I have enumerated; and repent afterwards.
06:34:36 <Rugxulo> don't get one of those, they're too new, it's not something to learn on
06:34:42 <alise_> Also, call it a computer, not a souped-up phone, or she'll probably get angry.
06:34:50 <Rugxulo> at least a netbook is portable and can close its lid (thereby somewhat protecting the screen)
06:34:52 <alise_> Rugxulo: Well, the iPhone OS is not that new really.
06:35:00 <alise_> erm, the iPad is portable...
06:35:03 <alise_> And you don't "learn" the web and email.
06:35:08 <alise_> There is barely any "knowledge" in it.
06:35:44 <Sgeo> She has trouble working her (non-smart)phone..
06:35:46 <Rugxulo> believe it or not, complete newbies don't know when to double-click, how to properly turn off the computer (or shutdown the OS), what programs to open for what, etc.
06:35:56 <alise_> Of course they don't.
06:36:08 <alise_> With the iPad, you press your finger on the thing saying Safari to go on "The Internet".
06:36:26 <alise_> Then you press whatever you want to go to on the screen, or hunt-and-peck on the keyboard to use "the Google".
06:36:45 <Sgeo> I will not allow her to use wrong terminology
06:36:52 <alise_> If you want to talk to people on e-male, you press the little picture with "Mail" underneath it. Then you touch the messages you want, and press the little thing saying "Reply" to say something more.
06:37:00 <alise_> Sgeo: Hopeless. Just accept it.
06:37:27 -!- cheater3 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
06:37:40 <alise_> Wow; I'm no longer so tired. The weird feeling of my skeletal structure is gone.
06:37:50 <alise_> Only the slight haze -- the inner yawn -- is there, of course it's the worst thing, but...
06:38:20 <Sgeo> I'm going to have to put you to sleep permanently again.
06:38:39 <alise_> hawt
06:40:30 <alise_> that's my retaliation to anything like that in future
06:40:33 <alise_> just make people feel awkward
06:40:43 <alise_> hey, i'm legal in less than two years!
06:40:44 <alise_> :P
06:43:20 <alise_> not that i'll be in this country by then
06:44:29 <Rugxulo> legal?
06:44:54 <Rugxulo> that makes me think you're ultra young
06:44:54 <alise_> I will no longer be an illegal immigrant because I will become a flower.
06:44:59 <alise_> I'm 14.
06:45:11 <Rugxulo> seriously? okay, not a huge shock, lots in here (esp. ehird) are young too
06:45:13 * Rugxulo is 30
06:45:22 <alise_> I /am/ ehird, you fool!
06:45:29 <alise_> --this nick is what we refer to as "a long story".
06:45:43 <Rugxulo> I thought he was 15 (can't remember, oh well)
06:45:58 <alise_> No; 12 and 13 are the ages I've been here.
06:46:02 <Rugxulo> maybe so
06:46:06 <pikhq> His 14th birthday was fairly recent.
06:46:10 <Rugxulo> hmmm, you strong math interest seems odd for your age ;-)
06:46:11 <alise_> Most definitely so :P
06:46:34 <Rugxulo> whatever happened to that static Linux distro you were working on? gave up?
06:46:35 <alise_> I was raped by mathematics as a young child. :|
06:46:35 <pikhq> Rugxulo: For most everyone who's in #esoteric, though?
06:46:48 <alise_> Rugxulo: I decided it wasn't worth the effort since Linux is pretty inherently shitty
06:46:57 <pikhq> I think I started coming to this channel when I was 15...
06:46:58 <alise_> and I could spend my time being slightly more annoyed at existing distros while doing more productive things
06:47:11 * bsmntbombdood taunts alise_ with tea
06:47:25 <alise_> bsmntbombdood: FUCK YOU
06:47:37 <pikhq> Rugxulo: I would've built it for curiosity's sake, but it's a major pain getting things working with just static linking.
06:47:41 <Rugxulo> alise, it's a huge undertaking to make your own distro
06:47:45 <pikhq> Especially trying to bootstrap.
06:47:49 <pikhq> Also: not really.
06:47:54 <pikhq> It's *tedious*, but not that hard.
06:48:05 <Rugxulo> very tedious and time consuming, lots of little bugs to workaround
06:48:24 <alise_> Not /huge/.
06:48:28 <Rugxulo> only good if you intend to use it full time, otherwise not worth the effort
06:48:28 <alise_> LFS has almost mechanised the process.
06:48:36 <alise_> But if you want something usable for /other people/, of course...
06:48:44 <alise_> I've never really cared much about other people. As in, in an immediate sense.
06:48:58 * pikhq is intimately familiar with *most* of the problems involved.
06:49:09 <pikhq> I have spent too much time on build automation. :P
06:49:12 <Rugxulo> there are definitely too many Linux distros, there just don't need to be 100+ Ubuntu derivatives, sheesh!!!
06:49:26 <alise_> I agree ther.
06:49:28 <Sgeo> What about Ubuntu integrals?
06:49:28 <alise_> *there
06:49:36 <alise_> Did you know you can download and install Hannah Montana Linux?
06:49:37 <alise_> Oh very yes.
06:49:42 <alise_> It's a variant of Kubuntu!
06:49:50 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Seriously.
06:50:17 <alise_> Ubuntu antidifferentiation is the result of restoring a modified Ubuntu to its stock state.
06:50:18 <pikhq> The only one I even could like on a technical level was, amusingly, Gnewsense.
06:50:24 <alise_> so what's an integral?
06:50:52 <pikhq> Because they automated their freeing-up-thing.
06:50:57 <alise_> Q : How/why did you make such a great OS?
06:50:57 <alise_> A : I thought - what would attract young users to Linux? So I created this idea after a lot of reading and work.
06:51:00 <alise_> lol
06:51:16 <pikhq> Which is at least more work than just about every other Ubuntu derivative.
06:51:37 <pikhq> (it also at least has *some* purpose, though that purpose is ideological)
06:51:52 <alise_> Oh, and the huge yawns start.
06:51:58 <alise_> I need to start taking melatonin.
06:52:05 -!- coppro has joined.
06:52:09 <alise_> It seems there is no other way I can maintain a sleep pattern, apart from authority.
06:52:22 <alise_> That's a good idea, actually. Why am I not already taking melatonin?
06:52:41 <pikhq> alise_: If it makes you feel better, "normal" sleep patterns are not feasible for teenagers outside of authority.
06:52:49 <alise_> Of course.
06:52:53 <alise_> But not sleeping at all is ludicrous.
06:53:12 <Sgeo> alise_, you're an Internet addict!
06:53:17 <pikhq> You're talking to a guy who has stayed up 30 hours for the purpose of watching a series in a single sitting.
06:53:17 <alise_> Anyway, anything is possible with melatonin :P
06:53:17 <coppro> I don't not sleep at all
06:53:19 <coppro> I don't sleep, then I get really tired and practically collapse
06:53:20 <alise_> Sgeo: ...Duh.
06:53:20 <pikhq> :P
06:53:21 <coppro> this cycle repeats itself
06:53:28 <alise_> coppro: you don't not sleep at all!
06:53:38 <coppro> yes
06:53:42 <alise_> pikhq: did it gradually get more and more arsty
06:53:45 <coppro> But I try
06:53:52 <pikhq> alise_: No.
06:53:58 <alise_> I really need to pee now, it feels like I'm pregnant
06:54:00 <alise_> but I'm still too tired
06:54:17 <pikhq> It gradually got more and more ass-pully until it got to the end, which was the most perfect ending possible.
06:54:18 <alise_> alternative hypothesis; maybe I am pregnant and this uncomfortability is the baby
06:54:30 <Rugxulo> ass-pully?
06:54:38 <alise_> See, now I just think you're talking about some weird abstract sex.
06:54:45 <coppro> which series?
06:54:53 <alise_> Ass-Pully, clearly
06:56:14 <Sgeo> "It occurs to me that this comic is starting to suck"
06:56:23 <Sgeo> Also, alise_, when you wake up, read Fine Structure?
06:56:40 <alise_> Wake up? Not before I sleep; and when I do I will then go to the unit.
06:56:46 <alise_> Sorry.
06:56:54 <alise_> So I just won't bother doing these things until I'm out of there.
06:57:01 <coppro> pikhq: what is it that you're watching?
06:57:28 * Sgeo loves how "you're" works for both present and past tense.
06:57:36 <Sgeo> Or at least, it SHOULD
06:57:51 <coppro> no
06:57:51 <pikhq> coppro: Had watched.
06:58:02 <alise_> I think pikhq is avoiding answering.
06:58:03 <Sgeo> Why shouldn't you were == you're?
06:58:10 <coppro> pikhq: Ok. What is it that you had watched?
06:58:11 <alise_> So obviously it was Ass-Pully 3: Extreme Ass Pulley Sluts
06:58:17 <alise_> A whole SERIES would you belive.
06:58:18 <Sgeo> If it's something like Elfen Lied, no one will judge
06:58:19 <alise_> *believe
06:58:25 <coppro> Sgeo: Because it doesn't. Velkommen to the English Language.
06:58:27 <alise_> Hey! You can't tell me I won't judge...
06:58:39 <alise_> I'll judge him for anything!
06:58:46 <coppro> I won't judge, unless you call a CFJ
06:59:12 <Sgeo> If it's a porn series, I'll judge you for watching for the plot.
06:59:37 <alise_> What if it's a business management course
07:00:03 <pikhq> coppro: Code Geass.
07:00:11 <coppro> heard of it. That's about all.
07:00:21 <coppro> in other news, Stargate Universe is awesome.
07:00:23 <pikhq> Season 2 had half of its plot be ass-pulls.
07:00:24 <alise_> co-educational gas
07:00:47 <Sgeo> Finished watching SG-1 the other day
07:00:53 <coppro> They pulled the same plot twist for the second episode in a row this week. It was beautiful.
07:01:09 <alise_> coppro: isn't that ... bad writing
07:01:25 <Sgeo> I have a friend who likes SGU
07:02:18 <coppro> alise_: No, given the nature of the twist
07:02:30 <alise_> The twist is ...
07:02:31 <alise_> THERE IS
07:02:31 <alise_> NO
07:02:32 <alise_> TWIST
07:02:55 <Sgeo> Is there a twist involved in the same twist happening twice?
07:03:17 <coppro> well... it's not really so much a twist as messing with your expectations of the plot. But it's sufficiently significant for it to warrant the designation.
07:05:09 <coppro> (If you really care, I'll tell you what it is in PM)
07:05:24 <Sgeo> Sure
07:05:28 <alise_> Sure, feel free. I won't watch it.
07:05:31 <alise_> Oh, him.
07:10:49 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: bored).
07:31:08 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
07:40:25 -!- FireFly has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:03:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:05:17 -!- coppro has joined.
08:05:42 <alise_> now my pee-need-o-meter is at defcon 24; my sleep-need-o-meter is at 3+4i
08:05:43 <myndzi> | |
08:05:43 <myndzi> /< /|
08:05:50 <alise_> thank you, myndzi.
08:05:56 <coppro> wow, I am tired
08:06:04 <coppro> I hit
08:06:06 <alise_> coppro: why?
08:06:11 <coppro> sleep
08:06:19 <alise_> You hit the sleep button.
08:06:20 <coppro> instead of going to bed
08:06:33 <alise_> wut
08:06:42 <coppro> alise_: because I'm tired
08:06:44 <coppro> on my computer
08:06:45 <coppro> I put my computer to sleep
08:06:47 <coppro> instead of myself
08:06:49 <alise_> ah
08:06:50 <alise_> lol
08:07:04 <coppro> also fuck I have so much work to do
08:08:12 <Sgeo> alise_, SLEEP
08:08:20 <alise_> Sgeo: At 8 am? Ludicrous.
08:08:30 * Sgeo has done that before
08:08:57 <alise_> Yes, but it leads to you waking up at times inopportune for getting a good NIGHT'S sleep the following - well, not following now - day.
08:18:15 <coppro> why is the harp so awesome?
08:18:22 <alise_> it isn't
08:18:32 <Rugxulo> heh
08:20:49 * Rugxulo thinks he just saved even *more* bytes by doing some weird trickery (inspired by loose understanding of Forth threading models)
08:21:03 <Rugxulo> was 1014 bytes, now 980, and it seems to (still) work!
08:21:05 <Rugxulo> not easy to do
08:21:08 <coppro> harps are amazing
08:21:14 <Rugxulo> oops, 982
08:21:22 <coppro> like, flute-level awesome
08:21:42 <coppro> actually, more awesome than the flute
08:22:42 <Rugxulo> and compression makes it worse, go figure
08:22:54 <Rugxulo> is a harp like crazy mad hard to change the strings??
08:22:58 <Rugxulo> *isn't
08:23:01 <coppro> probably
08:23:18 <Rugxulo> sorry, I misunderstood, thought you were messing with a real harp
08:23:18 <coppro> could care less though
08:23:22 <coppro> no
08:23:32 <coppro> I'm just rambling now
08:26:45 <coppro> but seriously, the harp is awesome
08:26:59 <alise_> i think my bladder is in serious danger
08:27:00 <Rugxulo> listing to some music?
08:27:13 * alise_ thinks
08:27:14 <alise_> ...
08:27:14 <alise_> danger is not a good thing
08:27:17 <alise_> nor are serious things
08:27:22 <alise_> therefore, serious danger must be doubly bad
08:27:24 <alise_> do my legs work?
08:27:38 <alise_> i don't know...
08:27:50 <Rugxulo> gah, now the Befunge benchmark is slow again (back to self-modifying speeds)
08:28:42 * Rugxulo just assumes it's the P4's fault
08:32:01 <pikhq> The P4's performance gets screwed by minor things like "branch misses".
08:32:11 <pikhq> Erm. Branch prediction misses.
08:32:21 <alise_> why did they even make the P4?
08:32:24 <pikhq> Most other CPUs are hurt by it, but the P4 gets completely *screwed* by it.
08:32:45 <pikhq> alise_: Because clock rate = speed!
08:33:20 <pikhq> The Pentium 4 went up to a *31-stage* pipeline.
08:33:32 <Rugxulo> note to fizzie (if you're log reading), I can't get be.fs to work with GForth or pForth
08:33:52 <alise_> brb pee time nao
08:34:01 <Rugxulo> they made the P4 to be able to scale to 10 Ghz
08:34:09 <Rugxulo> hence they simplified the logic somewhat (I think)
08:34:37 <Rugxulo> but they broke some common optimizations, introduced a trace cache, no barrel shifter (?), etc.
08:34:39 <pikhq> They made the pipeline so deep for the sole purpose of getting the clockrate to go up.
08:35:18 <Rugxulo> Prescott went to ~3.4 Ghz, but that was too hot, so they abandoned that and went back to Pentium-M for further work ("Core" 1, 2)
08:35:39 <pikhq> (deep pipeline means you can do fewer instructions per clock which means you can do a significantly higher clockrate)
08:36:31 <pikhq> This was all obviously a dead end. They had to go back to a Pentium III design just to get decent performance...
08:37:05 <pikhq> God. 31 stage pipeline...
08:37:49 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:38:44 * pikhq should sleep
08:39:05 <oerjan> but it's such a lovely morning!
08:39:10 * oerjan cackles evilly
08:39:28 <oerjan> on actually looking, it seems a bit grey
08:40:19 <oerjan> presently no hailstones like yesterday though
08:45:23 <Rugxulo> I assume all the hullabaloo over Ejfasflaskdjfasd has blown over by now?
08:45:45 <Rugxulo> (U.S. is all concerned over big oil spill headed our way)
08:47:34 <oerjan> Rugxulo: what i've vaguely picked up is (1) the volcano has calmed down a bit (2) the wind doesn't blow directly to europe at the time, probably (3) they did actual tests and found out it's not as dangerous to planes as they feared
08:48:51 <oerjan> "headed" your way? i seemed to have read it had landed...
08:49:19 <Rugxulo> honestly, it's so boring a story, and the news never gets to the point, beats around the bush like crazy, so I'm too lazy to sit there for hours wondering wtf ...
08:49:58 <Rugxulo> at one time somebody said they were gonna light it all on fire to "help", but I guess they never did that
08:50:38 <oerjan> norway cares deeply about oil spills though. there is this island archipelago Lofoten, and the question of whether to drill close to it (there are _huge_ fisheries there, not to mention a prime tourist destination) is majorly divisive in our politics
08:51:01 <oerjan> so this US oil spill will probably shift our political balance a bit
08:51:38 <Rugxulo> they claim it's probably worse than the Exxon Valdez spill from way back
08:51:58 <Rugxulo> what really gets me is that people (restaurants) are already being told to form class action lawsuits, ugh
08:52:20 <oerjan> well _that_ is a US thing :D D:
08:54:02 <coppro> Rugxulo: report I just read earlier says it's not yet as bad as Exxon Valdez, but it will get there if it doesn't get controlled soon, and that doesn't seem likely
08:55:02 <Rugxulo> well pardon my ignorance, but lighting it on fire does NOT seem like the answer
08:55:07 <oerjan> (on the one hand they want to drill near Lofoten, on the other hand they want to get it onto the Unesco world heritage list)
08:55:12 <Rugxulo> maybe it is, who knows, but it just sounds dumb
08:55:37 <Rugxulo> need for oil is just too prevalent, cars are everywhere
08:55:42 <alise_> back
08:56:17 <alise_> pikhq: hey yeah you said a couple of hours :)
08:56:20 <oerjan> alise_: shouldn't _you_ sleep? or maybe you already have
08:56:22 <alise_> anyway
08:56:28 <alise_> oerjan: almost 9am; no point
08:56:38 <oerjan> mhm
08:56:39 <alise_> I really, really need to start taking melatonin
08:58:08 <alise_> seriously, ridiculous.
08:58:14 <oerjan> hm maybe i should try that some time
08:59:02 <alise_> yeah according to the infallible god of gwern speaking on less wrong, you take it and half an hour later you're asleep, no getting out of it
08:59:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
08:59:14 <alise_> so it's basically a way of taking advantage of the fact that you can make a good decision about your bedtime /before/ the fact...
08:59:46 <alise_> certainly I don't see myself avoiding taking it; after all, I want to sleep at some point, I just hate the whole going-to-bed-and-not-sleeping thing.
09:00:36 <Sgeo> alise_, I googled melatonin, and the picture wasn't QUITE as rosy, don't remember why
09:00:41 <Sgeo> Also, I should sleep
09:00:57 <alise_> Is that "not QUITE as rosy" as in "bad bad bad", or "watch out slightly..."?
09:01:01 <alise_> I should just ask gwern.
09:01:11 <Sgeo> "watch out slightly"
09:01:14 <Sgeo> Don't remember why
09:01:28 <alise_> Anyway, unless it has permanent side effects, I don't really care; if they cause any temporary ones, I'd simply discontinue taking them.
09:02:21 <alise_> While the packaging of melatonin often warns against use in children, at least one long-term study[86] does assess effectiveness and safety in children. No serious safety concerns were noted in any of the 94 cases studied by means of a structured questionnaire for the parents. With a mean follow up time of 3.7 years, long-term medication was effective against sleep onset problems in 88% of the cases.
09:02:26 <alise_> that's good to know
09:05:28 <Sgeo> Night all
09:05:34 <alise_> aw; night
09:08:40 <alise_> green, fleshy matter
09:09:39 <fizzie> Rugxulo: I don't logread, but I usually notice mentions of my name; in any case, yes, I'm not terribly surprised that's the case. I'll see if I can make a better one one of these days.
09:09:58 <alise_> i want to drink pure liquid condensed sleep ... warm
09:11:14 <Rugxulo> fizzie, I'm not 100% sure what each threading model means in Forth, but I did something similar and shrank BEFI.COM to 982 bytes (but the benchmark is slow on P4 again, meh)
09:11:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
09:11:52 <Rugxulo> not that you care, of course, but hey, *I* found it interesting ;-))
09:11:59 <fizzie> Hm, mayhaps I should look at size-optimizing an interpreter too. Too much to do, again.
09:12:12 <Rugxulo> step one: kick GCC to the door ;-)
09:12:21 <Rugxulo> well ... or use dietlibc
09:12:41 <Rugxulo> (although I actually compiled fbbi in dietlibc on PuppyLinux yesterday, buggy / segfaulted)
09:12:57 <fizzie> I could hand-craft something for ARM, the Thumb instruction set there is supposedly quite economical.
09:13:05 <Rugxulo> actually, I think OpenWatcom has some pretty small code generation (static ELF for Linux, too)
09:13:25 <Rugxulo> 1.9rc5 was just released, probably final RC until 1.9 proper
09:13:46 <alise_> I wish there was something meant for humans in between ASM and C.
09:13:58 <Rugxulo> well, it depends
09:14:14 <Rugxulo> inline asm? shortcut mini-langs like Context or C-- ?
09:14:28 <coppro> LLVM IR?
09:14:35 <alise_> inline asm still carries all the semantic & code-size baggage of C, and the language inside it is not really a midpoint;
09:14:36 <Rugxulo> C isn't so bad, it's the damn C libraries that are so hugely bloated
09:14:41 <alise_> C-- is not human-usable in the slightest;
09:14:46 <alise_> LLVM IR even lessso.
09:14:51 <alise_> Wow, lessso.
09:14:54 <alise_> That is some word.
09:14:55 <coppro> nice
09:14:57 <Rugxulo> C-- is usable, sure, no worse than asm (or HLL asm)
09:15:08 <alise_> But it's obviously designed for machines.
09:15:12 <alise_> It has annoying inconveniences for human use.
09:15:13 <fizzie> Speaking of Unicode (which was spoken of at some point yesterday); recently I've been dabbling on a .NET implementation of Glass (Glass#?) -- to make .NET programming a bit more bearable, y'know -- and to avoid conflicts between housekeeping stuff and user-defined-in-Glass stuff, I prefixed all the Glass-defined names with the glottal stop character ʔ; it was the first Unicode character I came across that had a name starting with "gl".
09:15:19 <Rugxulo> I meant Sphinx C--
09:15:23 <alise_> I'd totally write my own libc, but I don't want to fuck with syscalls and the like.
09:15:34 <alise_> Rugxulo: then I know not of it.
09:15:41 <alise_> I know it exists, yes; but none of the details.
09:15:47 <alise_> fizzie: should have found some dingbat for a wine glass or something
09:16:00 <fizzie> Possibly. I can still change it.
09:16:31 <Rugxulo> http://c--sphinx.narod.ru/indexe.htm
09:16:57 <Rugxulo> glottal stop looks like a question mark to me
09:17:11 <alise_> it looks like a question mark that fell and got its dot squished
09:17:18 <alise_> poor thing
09:17:26 <Rugxulo> crazy idea for an esolang: all a-based letters for instructions (a grave, a breve, etc.)
09:17:33 <alise_> Rugxulo: And here it is possible to look last year's news.
09:18:01 <alise_> C-- is just for Windows. Unacceptable.
09:18:12 <fizzie> There's the cup, ☕, but that's undeniably a cup, not a glass. The only thing that has the world "glass" in UnicodeData.txt is the hourglass, ⌛.
09:18:17 <alise_> And last release 1996; quite dire.
09:18:26 <coppro> hourglasses are awesome. go for it
09:18:28 <alise_> fizzie: call the compiler hour, or sand, then
09:18:33 <coppro> Rugxulo: that sounds like YABFV
09:18:39 <Rugxulo> "ha.zip (40k)HA archiver (1.5 times faster than the original)."
09:18:48 <Rugxulo> that was rewritten in C--
09:18:55 <Rugxulo> but I don't think it's any faster on modern machines, only old ones
09:19:00 <alise_> ha ha ha
09:19:24 <alise_> I guess stripped-down C with a much lighter library would be what I want
09:19:27 <Rugxulo> alise, no, not 1996, there is a circa 2003 release or such (I forget exactly)
09:19:36 <alise_> (like, ideally most of the library functions would be inline)
09:19:48 <Rugxulo> it's basically a C subset closely bound to assembly, almost like a HLL assembler with flow control
09:20:13 <Rugxulo> I think the *nix asmutils project has a tiny libc, and dietlibc implements a lot of stuff in assembly
09:20:27 <alise_> yes, asmutils has a tiny libc
09:20:31 <alise_> I can never use dietlibc because of its license.
09:20:33 <Rugxulo> 1996 was Celik's last version, I think, later maintained by new dude
09:20:38 <Rugxulo> GPL?
09:20:55 <coppro> alise_: If IR wasn't meant to be written, why does it exist? Far easier for a program to generate LLVM code directly
09:20:57 <alise_> Yes, not even LGPL; and the guy is clearly quite mad, saying it's to stop Microsoft stealing his code.
09:21:09 <alise_> coppro: Insanity/stupidity!
09:21:21 <Rugxulo> P.S. ha (C-- rewrite) was a lot faster than original on my 486, but 7-Zip is like 2x faster still (and better compression)
09:21:41 <Rugxulo> yes, I know, he dislikes MS
09:22:05 <coppro> lol
09:22:11 <Rugxulo> I'll admit, some things should never be GPL if you intend wide use ... but GPL is a political force, so it's pretty much everywhere (and not really unreasonable for most things)
09:22:35 <alise_> Yes, but what /is/ unreasonable for my use is using a libc that requires all my code to be under the Holy Oversight of rms' license.
09:22:47 <alise_> You cannot even distribute OTHER PEOPLE'S CODE compiled with dietlibc, if it is not GPL.
09:22:56 <alise_> So it is COMPLETELY useless for any distribution, for one.
09:23:04 <alise_> (Linux distro, that is)
09:23:04 <Rugxulo> yes
09:23:11 <coppro> that's pretty dumb
09:23:12 <alise_> I mean, I love the code -
09:23:12 <Rugxulo> but most Linux geeks prefer GPL anyways
09:23:15 <alise_> but the ideology spoilt it.
09:23:23 <Rugxulo> assembly isn't really that bad
09:23:27 <alise_> Yes, but most Linux geeks - in fact almost ALL, even rms -
09:23:29 <coppro> I like GPL, but for a libc? bleh
09:23:32 <alise_> say that you should use LGPL for licenses
09:23:43 <alise_> because that's why it was created: because the GPL was worthless for licenses
09:23:43 <Rugxulo> RMS is so pedantic as to not use a computer whose BIOS isn't even open (which most aren't)
09:23:43 <alise_> simple
09:23:55 <coppro> right
09:23:56 <alise_> Not pedantry; zealotry.
09:24:02 * Rugxulo doesn't think Linux even uses the BIOS, even at bootup???
09:24:06 <alise_> And while I dislike the man, I'd feel uneasy if /someone/ wasn't doing it.
09:24:16 <coppro> RMS is so zealous that he won't even use a non-open BIOS, and yet even he advocates the LGPL
09:24:36 <alise_> And it really /is/ a shame, because the code was so nice.
09:25:06 <alise_> And I would love to use it, but even if I committed to using GPL for all my own stuff -- which I won't, I simply strongly dislike the license -- I can't change other people's licenses, and so I could not make the distribution I wanted to.
09:25:07 <Rugxulo> we're still stuck with lousy software patents (at least in U.S.)
09:25:20 <alise_> Nobody would have been harmed had I been able to link other people's non-GPL code with dietlibc.
09:25:31 <alise_> It would not be tainted in any way; in fact, it'd probably be a nice little microdistro.
09:25:42 <Rugxulo> well, all licenses are fairly useless and counter-productive, IMHO, because they only deal with stupid stuff
09:25:42 <alise_> And so that's the sacrifice you make when you use GPL in situations where it's inappropriate:
09:25:49 <alise_> Your ideology maintained; at the cost of uselessness.
09:26:01 <alise_> I just use MIT or WTFPL depending on my mood.
09:26:05 <Rugxulo> anything can be abused, GPL or not
09:26:12 <Rugxulo> so a license can't stop that anyways
09:26:13 <alise_> WTFPL cannot be abused, certainly.
09:26:28 <Rugxulo> I mean used in a negative manner towards someone else (e.g. viruses)
09:26:31 <alise_> yeah, precisely
09:26:46 <alise_> and really... when is microsoft going to "steal" some linux-specific minimalist libc
09:27:02 <alise_> in fact i think a lot of the "bad corporations STEALING!!" fluff from gpl advocates is basically egoism...
09:27:03 <Rugxulo> if they haven't already ... various companies have done that before
09:27:13 <alise_> "I made this code; it's mine; you MUST acknowledge it's mine by not doing things I don't like with it"
09:27:16 <alise_> get over it, seriously
09:27:27 <alise_> in the long term you are not harmed
09:27:35 <Rugxulo> the whole purpose of Gzip / Deflate was to have an unpatented compression method, and MS definitely uses it, enjoys all the benefits, but patents everything else out the wazoo
09:27:42 <alise_> yeah, so?
09:27:43 <alise_> who is harmed?
09:27:50 <Rugxulo> by patents? everybody
09:27:52 <alise_> who would care if not for a sense of attachment they have to their code?
09:27:54 <Rugxulo> by them using Gzip? nobody
09:27:57 <alise_> Rugxulo: but that's unrelated
09:28:00 <alise_> the latter is what i'm talking about
09:28:06 <alise_> of course, patents are completely useless and the whole system should be abolished
09:28:13 <alise_> so is copyright though :P
09:28:20 <alise_> "Welcome to the home of my Scheme interpreter/compiler, 'dream', written in x86 machine language. :-) "
09:28:21 <alise_> impressive
09:28:23 <Rugxulo> I'll admit, we're wasting a lot of effort reinventing the wheel over silly incompatible licenses (even GPLv2 vs. v3)
09:28:24 <alise_> All essential syntax and procedures from the R4RS standard are implemented.
09:28:25 <alise_> The interpreter is properly tail recursive and passes all applicable tests from the 'r4rstest.scm' test suite.
09:28:25 <alise_> Rational arithmetic with 32 bit magnitude numerator and denominator, or up to 262112 bit magnitude if the GMP library is available, is supported (with sign stored separately), but no Real or Complex numbers (these currently are in the works).
09:29:38 <coppro> roller coaster tycoon!
09:29:50 <Rugxulo> fizzie, did you see my latest (lame) B93 creation?
09:29:50 <alise_> fuck yeah
09:29:53 <alise_> <3
09:29:56 <alise_> marry me
09:30:04 <Rugxulo> coppro, huh?
09:30:06 <Rugxulo> heh
09:30:12 <alise_> Rugxulo: was written entirely in asm
09:30:26 <coppro> friggin awesome game too
09:30:28 <Rugxulo> roller coaster tycoon?
09:30:29 <coppro> yes
09:30:33 -!- tombom has joined.
09:30:34 <alise_> yes
09:30:39 <alise_> a game.
09:30:40 <Rugxulo> people do write big projects in asm
09:30:50 <Rugxulo> it's just not as heavily publicized as (C,C++,Java, etc.)
09:31:04 <alise_> they're mad though
09:31:06 <alise_> sometimes mad in a good way
09:31:11 <coppro> yeah
09:31:16 <coppro> like Mr. Sawyer
09:31:56 <Rugxulo> fizzie: http://www.pastebin.org/197670
09:32:48 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
09:32:48 <alise_> coppro: you might as well marry me, nobody else will {this is how twisted joke logic works without sleep}
09:32:58 <alise_> see, i scared him off.
09:34:31 * Rugxulo loves how his browser has to download several hundred kb of ads just to download a 20k file
09:34:42 <alise_> block them?
09:37:05 <Rugxulo> this new Opera 10.5 interface is a bit "hidden" by default, so it's slightly more cumbersome to find stuff
09:38:38 <alise_> *10.50
09:38:43 <alise_> way past 10.5.
09:39:58 <Rugxulo> I meant 10.5x
09:40:24 <Rugxulo> 10.52, build 3370
09:44:55 <Rugxulo> bah, stupid Javascript Befunge (buggy)
09:45:25 <Rugxulo> did you hear the hugely funny irony that Parrot's Befunge only had like two tests while HQ9+ had 13?
09:45:47 <alise_> not /that/ funny
09:46:03 <Rugxulo> well how hard do you have to test a HQ9+ interpreter?????
09:46:29 <alise_> ld: i386 architecture of input file `libc.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 out
09:46:31 <alise_> HOW DO I FIX TIHS
09:46:32 <alise_> *THIS
09:46:33 <alise_> :(
09:46:47 <Rugxulo> what are you trying to do?
09:46:56 <Rugxulo> "-m32" flag???
09:47:50 <alise_> does that work for ld
09:49:10 <Rugxulo> maybe, not sure honestly (don't use *nix much, esp. not 64-bit)
09:49:54 <Rugxulo> apparently "ld -A ARCH" or "--architecture ARCH" is supported
09:49:57 <alise_> yay, -melf_i386 works
09:50:02 <alise_> how you know apt has finished installing your package: update manager pops up
09:50:41 <alise_> $ ./libc.so.0
09:50:41 <alise_> a r e y o u s i c k ?
09:50:42 <alise_> yes
09:50:55 <alise_> wtf, only 19k
09:50:58 <alise_> too small :|
09:51:06 <Rugxulo> ?
09:51:10 <alise_> now how do i statically link with it??? oh of course, libc.a is already there
09:51:12 <alise_> Rugxulo: for a libc :P
09:51:26 <Rugxulo> gcc -static, ld -static
09:51:30 <alise_> i know
09:51:35 <Rugxulo> (and apparently, as I found out yesterday, you have to use -all-static for libtool)
09:51:51 <Rugxulo> else it's only static for external stuff, not libc etc.
09:52:51 <alise_> /usr/include/gnu/stubs.h:7:27: error: gnu/stubs-32.h: No such file or directory
09:52:52 <alise_> grr
09:53:12 <Rugxulo> you must have to install the 32-bit libs and headers and such
09:53:21 <Rugxulo> (if AnMaster gets here, he can probably help)
09:53:30 <alise_> yeah but i already have a 32-bit libc
09:53:32 <alise_> just the stupid gnu headers
09:54:06 <alise_> ia32-libs is already the newest version.
09:54:06 <alise_> ia32-libs set to manually installed.
09:54:45 <alise_> ah, i need some sort of glibc devel
09:54:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
09:55:15 <Rugxulo> Linux is so developer unfriendly sometimes
09:57:07 <alise_> like windows isn't
09:57:18 <Rugxulo> it all is
09:57:42 <Rugxulo> it seems developers are the least of all to properly make it easy to compile anything
09:57:53 <alise_> /usr/bin/ld: errno: TLS definition in /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.3.3/../../../../lib32/libc.a(errno.o) section .tbss mismatches non-TLS reference in /home/jane/asmutils-0.18/lib/libc.a(libc.o)
09:57:54 <alise_> watttttttttttt
09:58:08 <fizzie> libc6-dev-i386, but you probably found that already.
09:58:21 <Rugxulo> probably an incompatibility in asmutils' libc
09:58:28 <alise_> incompatibility howso
09:58:46 <Rugxulo> well, for one, I've never even heard of .tbss
09:58:53 <Rugxulo> but TLS maybe means thread local storage??
09:59:22 <Rugxulo> what exactly are you trying to build?
09:59:32 <alise_> not thread local storage i am sure, this is ld errors
09:59:38 <alise_> just a simple binary with asmutils libc.
09:59:56 <Rugxulo> like I said, OpenWatcom is probably a better idea, but that's just MHO
10:00:17 <alise_> on linux? ha
10:00:24 <Rugxulo> seriously, it has Linux binaries now
10:01:36 <Rugxulo> http://owbuilder.malakovi.cz/snapshot/binl/
10:01:57 <Rugxulo> although the proper installers (e.g. Win32, OS/2, DOS) should have all host files also (last I checked, 1.8 did)
10:02:14 <Rugxulo> the installers are actually just .ZIP sfx files, IIRC
10:02:31 <alise_> openwatcom is just /not/ in any universe i'm in or want to bein
10:02:33 <alise_> *be in
10:02:56 <Rugxulo> why not? it produces small code, and static ELF for Linux, to boot
10:03:19 <alise_> oh, of course, i forgot -nostdlib
10:03:24 <alise_> only one problem left
10:03:25 <alise_> /usr/bin/ld: warning: cannot find entry symbol _start; defaulting to 00000000080480c0
10:03:26 <Rugxulo> of course, if you rely on ./configure or POSIX instead of just ANSI or C99, you're out of luck
10:03:29 <alise_> but hey, it almost works
10:03:34 <alise_> $ ./hello
10:03:34 <alise_> Hello, world! 4286731992
10:03:35 <alise_> Segmentation fault
10:04:12 <Rugxulo> you still never said what exactly you're trying to build
10:04:34 <Rugxulo> http://www.openwatcom.org/index.php/Exploring_Windows_3.x
10:04:50 <Rugxulo> first freakin' sentence of the article: "Windows 3.x is, thankfully, obsolete."
10:04:53 <Rugxulo> ;-)
10:04:59 <alise_> I did say it
10:05:15 <alise_> <alise_> just a simple binary with asmutils libc.
10:05:21 <Rugxulo> yes, but you didn't say what
10:06:11 <alise_> jane@jane-desktop:~/code/libc$ wc -c hello
10:06:11 <alise_> 20266 hello
10:06:12 <alise_> jane@jane-desktop:~/code/libc$ wc -c hello.diet
10:06:12 <alise_> 11692 hello.diet
10:06:17 <alise_> diet libc is slimmer than asmutils.
10:06:22 <alise_> even with prinf.
10:06:24 <alise_> *printf
10:06:35 <alise_> also, diet is 64-bit if you want.
10:08:15 <alise_> to be quite honest trying to improve the libc is utter folly
10:08:19 <alise_> as it's so hideously broken in many, many ways
10:09:33 <Rugxulo> the idea of libc in general or just Linux libc?
10:09:50 <alise_> the functions etc. in the specification of the c library.
10:10:14 <alise_> to start with, buffer overflows galore; secondly, many inconsistencies; thirdly, no real concept of "string" but plenty of functions purporting to operate on """"strings""""...
10:10:17 <Rugxulo> obviously many (esp. GNU dudes) are more POSIX-oriented these days
10:10:17 <alise_> the list goes on
10:10:32 <alise_> oh, and complaings 5-500: gets() exists/existed at some point
10:10:37 <alise_> *complaints
10:10:42 <alise_> basically it's a horribly designed library in every wya.
10:10:44 <alise_> *way
10:10:46 <Rugxulo> yes, I knew you'd mention that one ;-)
10:11:04 <Rugxulo> you don't have to use it exclusively ... heck, some people use both C and assembly intermixed
10:11:13 <Rugxulo> mostly for OS portability (see Paul Carter's tutorial)
10:11:21 <alise_> i don't care; it's still an abomination because a perfectly good library-for-C COULD be made.
10:11:52 <Rugxulo> http://fasmlib.x86asm.net/ (but it's dead)
10:15:55 <Rugxulo> no more updates will be coming, but it looks nice
10:17:06 <alise_> fprintc(f, c); fprints(f, s); fprintf(f, fmt, ...); printc(c); prints(s); printf(fmt, ...);
10:17:11 <alise_> ^ can't even get simple consistent naming right.
10:17:55 <Rugxulo> putc, puts
10:18:07 <Rugxulo> which are a macro and (fairly useless) function
10:18:09 <alise_> are you trying to /rebut/ my point?
10:18:14 <alise_> also, puts is perfectly useful.
10:18:23 <Rugxulo> useful, yes, but not often
10:20:45 <alise_> oh, and of course, f?prints would not print a newline, as there is clearly no call for it to do so...
10:37:12 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: nap I guess).
10:39:30 <alise_> .
10:44:42 <AnMaster> <Rugxulo> (if AnMaster gets here, he can probably help) <-- hi
10:44:45 <AnMaster> help with what?
10:49:22 <alise_> AnMaster never helps!
10:49:45 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:50:25 -!- tombom has joined.
10:55:33 <alise_> COMPUTERS SUCK
11:15:33 <alise_> like
11:15:39 <alise_> seriously.
11:18:10 <alise_> .
11:20:46 <alise_> fff who wants to join me in my quest to make computers awesome :P
11:37:12 <alise_> ugh coq is so suboptimal
11:39:23 <alise_> specifically
11:39:27 <alise_> asserts should be transparent
11:39:29 <alise_> but they're opaque
11:51:02 -!- hiato has joined.
11:59:59 -!- cheater2 has joined.
12:03:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Forgive my ignorance, but what is the Ackerman function for? What is interesting about it other than the fact that it generates really huge numbers really quickly?
12:05:22 <alise_> First computable, non-primitive-recursive function discovered.
12:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And that means?
12:06:13 <alise_> It's maths/CS stuff.
12:06:25 <alise_> Basically people thought primitive-recursive = computable, but it turns out it's a subset.
12:06:38 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_recursive_function
12:06:43 -!- adam_d has joined.
12:07:42 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you learn this stuff?
12:08:37 <hiato> alise_: it wasn't the first
12:10:21 <alise_> hiato: first discovered, it was.
12:10:21 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: study CS/maths.
12:10:21 <alise_> mostly CS.
12:10:22 <alise_> but, like, computability-oriented CS is basically mathematics.
12:10:44 <hiato> alise_: I'm sure it was not. But let me check
12:11:02 <hiato> alise_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan_function
12:11:06 <hiato> Tha was
12:11:19 <alise_> Fair enough.
12:11:27 <alise_> In the late 1920s, the mathematicians Gabriel Sudan and Wilhelm Ackermann, students of David Hilbert, were studying the foundations of computation. Sudan is credited with inventing the lesser-known Sudan function, the first published function that is recursive but not primitive recursive. Shortly afterwards and independently, in 1928, Ackermann published his own recursive but not primitive recursive function.[2]
12:11:29 <alise_> Not so far apart.
12:12:19 <hiato> I'm afraid being right or wrong is absolute here :P
12:12:47 <alise_> Yes, but I mean, it was independent.
12:12:50 <alise_> So that's the interest, still.
12:12:52 <alise_> I'm tired, anyway.
12:13:08 <hiato> Heh
12:13:27 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: gonna remove HAL).
12:15:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't let him at the life support!
12:16:31 -!- hiato has joined.
12:16:49 <alise_> daisy, daisy
12:16:51 <alise_> give me your answer do
12:16:51 <alise_> etc
12:17:28 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato: How's the omnipotent superbeing thing?
12:17:56 <alise_> hey, I was just dying over here
12:18:08 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: heh, no more :P
12:18:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_: Don't worry, you come back in the next book.
12:18:34 <alise_> You guys don't even know what happens when he's unplugged? Sheesh.
12:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes!
12:19:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I've forgotten the exact details, though.
12:19:39 <alise_> I'm talking about the film; I'm too uncouth to read the book.
12:19:43 <alise_> Anyway,
12:19:44 <alise_> <alise_> daisy, daisy
12:19:44 <alise_> <alise_> give me your answer do
12:19:44 <alise_> <alise_> etc
12:20:28 * Phantom_Hoover pulls out the rest of alise_'s brain.
12:20:50 * Phantom_Hoover enters Monolith.
12:21:06 <alise_> [film stops making even the slightest amount of sense]
12:21:29 * Phantom_Hoover watches what looks like space eggs being broken.
12:21:59 * Phantom_Hoover looks at weirdly-coloured landscapes
12:22:28 * Phantom_Hoover lands in inexplicable hotel
12:22:46 <alise_> [things, happen
12:22:47 <alise_> [things, happen]
12:22:56 * Phantom_Hoover dies of old age
12:23:16 <alise_> [credits]
12:23:19 * Phantom_Hoover comes back at space embryo
12:23:33 <alise_> YOU MAKE NO SENSE
12:23:39 <Phantom_Hoover> s/at/as/
12:24:37 * Phantom_Hoover shakes head in sorrow at quality of next film
12:25:13 <Phantom_Hoover> For heaven's sake, was it *that* hard for them to remember that there is no sound in space?
12:26:44 <alise_> [somewhere, sometime, somebody synchs up a certain Pink Floyd song, and rewinds]
12:26:44 <alise_> Ping! ... Ping!
12:26:45 <alise_> [lots of Pings, lots of stuff]
12:26:45 <alise_> overhead the albatross etc.
12:29:16 <Phantom_Hoover> ???
12:30:34 <alise_> :|
12:30:42 <Phantom_Hoover> :(
12:30:43 <alise_> "Echoes" "supposedly" synchronises with the last part.
12:30:55 <alise_> I'm not so sure it does but it sure was trippy
12:32:53 <hiato> wth are you guys on about?
12:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a language called C Major?
12:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> If not, there must be one.
12:33:12 <alise_> hiato: 2001, & Pink Floyd in my case; & their respective relationships.
12:33:37 <hiato> alise_: Right.
12:33:48 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: D Minor
12:34:06 <hiato> i think that's miniD
12:34:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Bleugh, Microsoft.
12:36:26 <alise_> D != MS
12:36:26 <alise_> ?
12:36:45 <Phantom_Hoover> No, but according to Google Dminor is a Microsoft language.
12:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/downloads/cd60cdb0-353f-48b3-81d7-177621eba1bf/default.aspx
12:41:27 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: lol, really? I made that up :P
12:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
12:41:39 <hiato> well, evidentally not
12:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I am appalled.
12:42:03 <hiato> at?
12:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Your *lying*!
12:42:17 <hiato> How accurate my imagination can be?
12:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, you were wrong in every specific.
12:42:54 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: brb, need to kill screen).
12:43:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm I think it might be a good idea to call C# D♭ instead
12:43:13 -!- hiato has joined.
12:43:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, I like that one.
12:43:20 <AnMaster> (the language D♭ that is)
12:43:24 <AnMaster> s/ / /
12:45:14 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
12:46:52 <hiato> AnMaster: I'll have you know that due to your silly unicode error there, FFX now thhinks the bloody log is a binary file
12:47:06 <AnMaster> hiato, ffx?
12:47:15 <AnMaster> hiato, also afaik that was proper unicode?
12:47:22 <AnMaster> at least my client is set to send unicode
12:47:22 <hiato> Or, perhaps it was myndzi
12:47:30 <AnMaster> "Current charset: UTF-8"
12:47:31 <hiato> AnMaster: Firefox
12:47:34 <hiato> Hmmm
12:47:38 <hiato> that it was myndzi
12:47:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hiato: FFX doesn't think the logs are Uniode.
12:47:52 <hiato> Yeah, he had escape characters
12:47:56 <Phantom_Hoover> s/Uniode/Unicode
12:47:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, uniode! :D
12:48:04 <hiato> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.05.02
12:48:10 <AnMaster> like a diode but only one direction? ;)
12:48:13 <hiato> I get it as a bin file
12:48:36 <AnMaster> hiato, can't do anything about that *shrug*
12:48:51 <AnMaster> also unicode is fairly common in here
12:49:22 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you type lambda on an X11 keyboard.
12:49:24 <hiato> AnMaster: I know, but it's just strange that it was now picked up as binary mime type
12:49:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm, compose key if only I could get it to read my customisations of that
12:49:45 <AnMaster> :/
12:49:50 <hiato> fdulu@chippy> file 10.05.02 ---> 10.05.02: data
12:50:11 <AnMaster> hiato, try removing my line from it and see what happens
12:50:16 <AnMaster> it shouldn't matter
12:50:42 <hiato> meh I just rm'd it, but okay
12:51:28 <hiato> fdulu@chippy> file 10.05.02 --> 10.05.02: UTF-8 Unicode English text, with very long lines
12:51:38 <hiato> Proof if ever were one needed :P
12:52:08 <AnMaster> hm
12:52:17 <AnMaster> hiato, well I know I sent it as unicode
12:52:24 <AnMaster> so maybe file is broken
12:52:34 <hiato> Hmmm
12:52:46 <hiato> Naah, it was myndzi liens, not yours
12:52:51 <hiato> *lines
12:52:57 <AnMaster> see
12:53:52 <AnMaster> btw checking my own log files (rotated monthly) for freenode: http://sprunge.us/gYNb
12:53:58 <AnMaster> quite interesting stats
12:54:09 <AnMaster> I wonder how it concluded it was C code...
12:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do you use sort -n twice?
12:55:45 <hiato> what ISO standard are you guys using?
12:56:12 <hiato> 646 8859 10646?
12:56:21 <alise_> 4
12:56:37 <hiato> alise_: ?
12:56:44 <alise_> that is the standard
12:56:48 <hiato> Oh
12:56:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Abbreviation of journal titles?
12:56:58 <hiato> then whta the hell is all theis stuff
12:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently nonstandardly abbreviated journal titles.
12:57:27 <hiato> hmm
12:57:51 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Why do you use sort -n twice? <-- uniq -c in between
12:57:53 <AnMaster> that is why
12:58:00 <AnMaster> of course the first one could have been just sort
12:58:03 <hiato> ok, romeone do me a favour, open up xfotset and took at rgstry
12:58:03 <AnMaster> without the -n
12:58:07 <hiato> *someone
12:58:14 <hiato> *xfontsel
12:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, ISO standards are boring. ISO 2: Twist directions for yarns.
12:58:43 <AnMaster> eh?
12:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ISO 6: Film speed.
12:59:06 <AnMaster> Twist directions for yarns.?
12:59:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise_ said that he was using ISO standard 4, which prompted me to look it up.
12:59:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and what is iso 4?
13:00:14 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a standardisation of the abbreviation of journal titles.
13:00:20 <alise_> ISO morphic
13:00:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and that is what alise_ used it for?
13:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> No, he uses it as his character encoding.
13:00:47 <AnMaster> hah
13:00:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't ask.
13:01:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ISO 7: Something called pipe threads.
13:01:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, is that the official title of it?
13:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> ISO 4?
13:01:29 <AnMaster> no, iso 7
13:01:48 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's a description of what it standardises.
13:01:51 <AnMaster> ah
13:02:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Pipe threads seem to be something to do with plumbing.
13:02:58 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how comes we never see that in Mario then? ;P
13:03:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Nintendo mustn't obey the standards.
13:03:22 <AnMaster> hah
13:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm going to stop looking at ISOs before I die of boredom.
13:04:35 <AnMaster> heh
13:04:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, where is that list?
13:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I just typed "ISO N" into WP.
13:05:14 <AnMaster> ah
13:08:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that there must be an ISO standard for the format of ISO standards.
13:08:46 <AnMaster> heh
13:12:29 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22personal+pin+number%22 This saddens me.
13:15:48 <alise_> 1234567890
13:16:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course, "Personal" makes no sense in the context of PINs.
13:16:55 <Phantom_Hoover> There are hundreds of thousands of people with each PIN, assuming an even distribution.
13:17:49 * Phantom_Hoover must revise
13:17:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
13:35:13 <alise_> An unpublished dockumente.
13:49:36 <alise_> http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/calluna.html goddamnit i want this font!
13:51:58 <hiato> The regular is absolutely free.
13:52:04 <hiato> quote un'quote
13:53:04 <alise_> the regular, yes, but i have this crazy tendency to use bold and italic in my text.
13:53:32 <hiato> alise_: In a font? Why should that matter?
13:53:48 <alise_> ?
13:53:48 <alise_> I am not sure you understand.
13:53:51 <hiato> It's not like arial becomes arial thick when you use bold
13:53:59 <alise_> What do you mean, why should that matter?
13:54:05 <hiato> It's all in one font
13:54:09 <alise_> Are you saying that the computer can automatically italicise and embolden text?
13:54:16 <alise_> And that it does this for existing fonts?
13:54:34 <alise_> hiato: The "regular being absolutely free" means a font with only non-bold, non-italic glyphs: i.e. regular glyphs.
13:54:36 <hiato> Yes, I am
13:54:49 <alise_> hiato: Then you are a fool who knows nothing of typography.
13:54:54 <alise_> Italic IS NOT the same thing as slanted.
13:54:59 <alise_> Computers can slant; the result is hideously inappropriate for italic text.
13:55:09 <alise_> Italics are almost always separate glyph-sets.
13:55:14 <alise_> The same goes for bold.
13:55:24 <hiato> I, for instance, know that my current font (terminus) only har once set of glyphs - regular. But, *this* is bold nonetheless
13:55:51 <alise_> Terminus, sure, a monospaced font.
13:55:54 <alise_> Do you really think that has any bearing on good typography?
13:56:09 <alise_> If I didn't care about the quality, readability and beauty of my text... I wouldn't care what typeface I was using.
13:56:24 <hiato> alise_: I dont follow
13:56:37 <alise_> Where, exactly, do you stop following?
13:56:46 <hiato> and no, I do not know "anything about typography"
13:56:54 <alise_> Where, exactly, do you stop following?
13:57:29 <hiato> Are you saying that computer glyph alteration is only avaliable for monospace fonls?
13:57:32 <hiato> *t
13:57:37 <alise_> hiato: OK; do you not understand the difference between italic type and slanted type?
13:57:43 <alise_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_type Look at the two examples here.
13:57:50 <alise_> "Italic" denotes something /very/ different from slanted type.
13:58:05 <alise_> With monospaced fonts, it doesn't really matter: they have basically no fidelity or typographical quality anyway, at least old-school ones.
13:58:20 <alise_> But if we're talking actual, readable, modern type: slanting is not /nearly/ the same thing as italics, and it is hideous.
13:58:45 <hiato> alise_: If you insnit. Dina, for instance, is yet another counter-example
13:59:10 <alise_> Are you perhaps confusing amateur monospaced fonts with actual proportional typefaces?
13:59:15 <alise_> You know, that have things like "kerning".
13:59:34 <hiato> I'm not sure. What is that?
14:00:17 <alise_> Well, here is the sign that discussing typography with you probably requires a whole background introduction first. :)
14:00:37 <alise_> Safe to say that all the serif fonts, and some of the sans-serif fonts, you use on your computer, definitely have italic versions.
14:00:40 <hiato> Yep, I imagine it does
14:00:44 <alise_> Because italic type doesn't even have to be particularly slanty.
14:00:54 <hiato> Ok
14:01:05 <alise_> Simply not the same thing: and was never believed to be so, before Windows and the like came along and fudged the fact that they didn't have proper italic glyphs in their word processor by automatically slanting.
14:02:05 <hiato> Ah, right
14:03:58 <alise_> Anyway I guess a lot of people read really ugly aliased Arial on their Windows XP machines with their displays set to the wrong resolution...
14:03:58 <alise_> So it's not really something "most people" would notice.
14:03:58 <alise_> But once you've noticed it once you never stop.
14:03:58 <alise_> Now how much does Calluna cost... :-)
14:04:20 <hiato> heh
14:06:17 <alise_> $119.
14:06:21 <alise_> Well, I shall start saving up.
14:06:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:06:30 -!- augur has joined.
14:18:10 <alise_> Disregard that I
14:36:38 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
14:37:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:38:04 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, does anyone here have much experience with graphicsy things?
14:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried #ubuntu but it was as helpful as a bag of ferrets.
14:38:53 <fizzie> That sounds very helpful.
14:39:00 <alise_> Hey, bags of ferrets are retarded in a cute sort of way.
14:39:04 <alise_> #ubuntu is just retarded.
14:39:15 <alise_> Also, ferrets occasionally acknowledge your existence
14:39:25 <fizzie> What *can't* you do with a bag of ferrets?
14:39:40 <alise_> ...hm.
14:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Fix your computer.
14:39:42 <alise_> ...
14:39:44 <alise_> Nothing, actually.
14:39:53 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: You could replace your computer with a bag of ferrets.
14:40:03 <alise_> Now I want a bag of ferrets.
14:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Bags of ferrets can't do interesting things like browse the internet.
14:40:19 <fizzie> I got kicked out of (IRCnet's) #linux.fi for associating with "the wrong sort of people".
14:40:39 <fizzie> But it is a channel like that.
14:40:50 <alise_> fizzie: What sort of people would that be?
14:41:06 <alise_> Also, EFnet/IRCnet + Finnish people; most hostile environment conceivable?
14:41:08 <Phantom_Hoover> The wrong one.
14:41:09 <fizzie> Some years earlier I had gotten kicked out of there for being too quiet.
14:41:13 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes they can.
14:41:19 <alise_> They can browse all the portions of the internet contained within a bag of ferrets.
14:41:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Is #esoteric in them?
14:41:41 <fizzie> The sort of people who don't like newcomers to their precious channel.
14:41:57 <alise_> I thought Finns disliked conversation.
14:42:02 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, they may know certain things about esoteric programming language.
14:42:14 <alise_> Mostly things that involve looking at you blankly.
14:42:26 <fizzie> Oh, you meant the wrong people. Those were people associatd with an organization of sorts.
14:42:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought they have a non-Indo-European language. The Finns. Not the ferrets.
14:42:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Though ferrets don't have an Indo-European language either.
14:42:55 <alise_> Well, I can't vouch for the Finns, but the ferrets certainly do.
14:43:18 <alise_> fizzie: You can say cult, we won't judge. :P
14:43:24 <alise_> (Or ULTIMAT WAREZ SKENE GRUUP.)
14:43:57 <fizzie> More culty than warezy, but perhaps a bit quirky.
14:44:45 <alise_> I REQUIRE ELABORATION
14:44:45 <alise_> Was it Kibology
14:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Or Last Thursdayism?
14:45:06 <fizzie> It was a Finnish thing, not so explicable or known.
14:45:27 <fizzie> I don't suppose Deewiant has been in any way involved with the "irtie" folks? (It's a small country, but maybe not quite *that* small.)
14:46:22 <alise_> Finland is weird.
14:46:43 <Deewiant> Never heard of "irtie"
14:47:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Imam Irtie?
14:49:14 <alise_> http://i.imgur.com/qlrHy.jpg
14:49:29 <fizzie> alise_: Courtesy of Google Translate: http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=fi&tl=en&u=http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irti_El%25C3%25A4m%25C3%25A4st%25C3%25A4&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&usg=ALkJrhjvvQORGLzfbaRDVUUWmIh_WJZcOQ
14:49:36 <fizzie> Deewiant: Irti elämästä, I mean.
14:49:45 <alise_> Translating Finnish; this sounds fun.
14:49:49 <alise_> As in hellish.
14:49:56 <fizzie> It looked pretty hilarious.
14:50:13 <Deewiant> Don't know of that either, I don't think.
14:50:22 <fizzie> I wasn't a member or anything, I just knew too many people involved.
14:50:23 <alise_> I want to write a really simple raycasterish thing.
14:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/images/e/e8/WatermelonCat.jpg
14:50:46 <fizzie> Deewiant: Okay; it was a long shot, anyway.
14:51:08 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie: So what *is* it?
14:51:40 * alise_ tries to load the translated page
14:52:27 <alise_> http://www.wikihow.com/Make-a-Ferret-Sleeping-Bag
14:53:39 <Phantom_Hoover> No, wrong way round.
14:53:44 <fizzie> Can't find anything official in English. Just a vaguely computer/nerdery-related association.
14:54:28 * Phantom_Hoover needs to go now, so shall crash his GPU again for data-acquisitory purposes.
14:56:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:58:37 <alise_> fearless.
15:00:05 <alise_> I never knew OpenOffice could edit equations.
15:01:20 <fizzie> Isn't there an equation editor in MS Office too?
15:02:40 <fizzie> I seem to recall one from years past; and they have to try to include all Office features, after all.
15:05:12 <alise_> Yes; it's better than OpenOffice's too :P
15:13:07 <alise_> Also, is it just me or is the Pentium III way better than the P4 in every way?
15:15:51 -!- hiato has joined.
15:16:09 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit).
15:18:33 <fizzie> It must be just you; 3 < 4.
15:18:56 <alise_> lulz
15:27:02 <alise_> It would be nice to have some sort of symbolic-numeric library for C, like so: http://pastie.org/942428.txt?key=jkk2tre903q6vbcuclnjw
15:27:09 <alise_> I think Ginac is basically that for C++, but still.
15:27:15 <alise_> Of course ginac benefits from operator overloading.
15:34:28 <alise_> Still, it would be Handy with a capital Y.
15:35:25 <alise_> I wonder if there's some Utterly Horrible Trick you could use to make x+y work.
15:35:37 <alise_> Perhaps define X and Y, as the existing variables, as something ending in a quote mark, so it ends up looking like
15:35:44 <alise_> build(X, " + ", Y
15:35:46 <alise_> or something
15:50:57 -!- hiato has joined.
15:54:07 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit).
15:54:12 -!- adam_d has joined.
15:58:41 <pikhq> Still up?
15:59:27 <pikhq> alise_: ^
16:00:18 <alise_> yes
16:00:19 <alise_> hi!
16:01:30 <pikhq> Whooo.
16:01:43 * pikhq is up earlier than would be liked
16:07:02 <pikhq> alise_: Dear God I gave you a stupid answer last night regarding "time".
16:07:12 <alise_> Yes :|
16:07:19 <pikhq> Some of those times were 24 hour, some were 12 hour.
16:07:34 <alise_> Well /that/ explain the huge disrepancy that I POINTED OUT...
16:07:41 <alise_> >_<
16:08:40 <pikhq> 17:08 UTC+12, 15:08 Chamorro, 02:08 Atlantic, 01:08 Eastern, 00:08 Central, 23:08 Mountain, 22:08 Pacific, 21:08 Alaska, 20:08 Hawaii-Aleutian, 19:08 Samon, 17:08 UTC-12.
16:08:46 <pikhq> It was late.
16:09:17 <pikhq> And those first two times are wrong. GAH.
16:09:36 <pikhq> Not to mention several hours ago.
16:09:48 <pikhq> I... Should get some coffee.
16:09:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, shouldn't UTC+12 == UTC-12 always be the case when you don't include the date?
16:10:00 <AnMaster> hm
16:10:12 <pikhq> Oh. Yeah.
16:10:17 <pikhq> I should get some coffee.
16:10:32 -!- hiato has joined.
16:10:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, so if the first two are wrong then the last one must be wrong too
16:10:49 <alise_> First coffee, now tea
16:10:53 <alise_> you fucking bastard!
16:11:05 <alise_> right that is /it/
16:11:09 <alise_> do you know what i am going to do
16:11:59 <alise_> EH EH
16:12:01 <alise_> EH PIKHQ
16:12:23 <pikhq> ... Go downstairs?
16:13:32 <alise_> ... shut up
16:15:01 <alise_> anyway
16:15:04 <alise_> i have an urge to either
16:15:13 <alise_> (a) write up yet another basic architecture for a non-sucky os, or
16:15:19 <alise_> (b) spec a totally solid state machine
16:15:27 <alise_> the former is better, the latter is easier and short term funner
16:15:32 <alise_> guess which i'll end up doing, probably.
16:18:32 <alise_> spqrtuv
16:35:35 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:40:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:56:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
16:57:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Does this channel actually have any ops?
16:57:18 <oerjan> sure
16:57:26 <oerjan> me, fizzie and lament
16:57:41 <oerjan> although i'm pretty new and incompetent at it
16:58:24 <oerjan> fizzie is the uberop
16:58:59 <oerjan> but not the channel founder, that is andreou who no one has seen for years
16:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Founders are indeed mystical creatures.
16:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> How can one found a channel in the first place, other than by being the first to join it?
16:59:45 * oerjan ponders if there's a reference there he doesn't get
17:00:00 * Phantom_Hoover wishes he was that subtle
17:00:02 <oerjan> freenode has a channel registration system
17:00:22 <oerjan> so andreou was presumably the one to register it
17:00:38 <pikhq> Chanserv.
17:00:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
17:00:49 <oerjan> ChanServ handles channels, like NickServ handles nicks
17:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose that someone must have made a language that uses chess notation.
17:02:13 * oerjan notes that Phantom_Hoover hasn't registered his nick
17:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> I just haven't bothered to identify. Hold on...
17:02:47 <oerjan> or well you did but you aren't logged in
17:03:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
17:03:44 * oerjan isn't so good with those bots - it's like they duplicate functionality that _should_ have been in the server itself if things were logical
17:03:59 <oerjan> so i used /whois to check your nick first, since that's the server command
17:05:31 <oerjan> and i have this vague idea that bans should probably go through chanserv, rather than using my clients /kickban command which is easier
17:06:05 <oerjan> which may be the main thing i need to learn to be an efficient op
17:06:32 <oerjan> otoh i haven't yet had a serious _use_ for my op powers :D
17:06:49 <oerjan> *client's
17:07:02 <alise_> opping #esoteric is a dull job.
17:07:07 <alise_> Nothing needs to be done most days.
17:07:54 <oerjan> of course /kickban is probably sufficient for less persistent spammers
17:08:05 <oerjan> and trolls
17:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> This channel has trolls?
17:09:19 <oerjan> it has happened
17:09:25 <oerjan> they're not very persistent
17:09:27 <Phantom_Hoover> What did they troll over?
17:09:38 <alise_> nothing, mostly
17:09:45 <alise_> most even /admit/ to trolling
17:09:47 <oerjan> ok there was one banned the other month
17:09:51 <alise_> oerjan: two
17:09:54 <augur> god
17:09:55 <alise_> one got unbanned (unfortunately)
17:10:00 <oerjan> yes but one was unbanne... right
17:10:03 <alise_> but he's been silent since so... sssh
17:10:06 <augur> im reading the jargon file's section on hacker writing style
17:10:11 <augur> its nothing but me in there D:
17:10:23 <oerjan> alise_: our channel is simply too boring to troll :D
17:10:23 <augur> actually more :D than anything
17:10:37 <alise_> augur: ignore the jargon file
17:10:40 <oerjan> we're too reasonable or something
17:10:47 <augur> hush your face alise_ >|
17:10:55 <alise_> esr is just a masturbatory, egotistical blowhard who likes putting his own coinages in there and making ludicrous assertions like most hackers are conservatives.
17:11:11 <alise_> seriously. if there is one thing every sane or insane person must do, it is to IGNORE ESR.
17:11:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, ESR. Nothing like a nice dose of crazy.
17:11:39 <oerjan> well, he _did_ maintain c-intercal for a while
17:11:45 <alise_> he /wrote/ c-intercal
17:11:46 <alise_> case in point
17:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Though he ceased to be amusing when he blamed Turing for what happened to him.
17:11:53 <alise_> I bet augur would like his article about literally channeling a sex goddess when he was a teenager (IIRC)
17:11:57 <alise_> (it was quite serious)
17:12:02 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, what?
17:12:11 <alise_> Phantom_Hoover: Wow.
17:12:15 <augur> alise_: where's it say anything about conservativism
17:12:18 <alise_> Blaming... Turing... for being gay...
17:12:32 <alise_> augur: lemme find it for you
17:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=1046#comment-236592
17:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Apparently everyone is more pathetic than him.
17:12:54 <augur> oh see, im reading the old version then, i guess
17:13:02 * alise_ tries to find it
17:13:06 <augur> http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_59.html#SEC66
17:13:13 <alise_> augur: basically it states that blah blah before 9/11 or something
17:13:15 <alise_> and then yo conservatives man
17:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Libertarians, I thought.
17:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> He's a gun nut, too.
17:14:51 <augur> so who's ESR now?
17:15:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Eric S Ramond.
17:15:09 <Phantom_Hoover> s/Ramond/Raymond..
17:15:15 <augur> dont know him
17:15:19 <augur> dont know if i care
17:15:33 -!- alise__ has joined.
17:15:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically, he's the right-wing version of Stallman. In very loose terms.
17:15:41 <alise__> <alise_> also he put "gandhicon" in there after he was the only person to say it, ever.
17:15:44 <alise__> <alise_> plus, he's:
17:15:46 <alise__> <alise_> - pro-Iraq war
17:15:46 <alise__> <alise_> - pro-Israel's actions
17:15:48 <alise__> <alise_> - pro-guns guns & MOAR GUNZ
17:15:50 <alise__> <alise_> - I could go on...
17:15:52 <alise__> <alise_> basically take anything he says with a grain of shit. he sucks at technology too.
17:15:55 <alise__> <alise_> hey, he wrote fetchmail though!
17:15:58 <alise__> <alise_> even more annoying is that the original jargon file was /wonderful/
17:16:00 <alise__> <alise_> and esr came along and shat on it
17:16:01 <augur> alise__: whats a guns gun
17:16:02 <alise__> augur: Um, ESR is who maintains the Jargon File now.
17:16:04 <alise__> Although I hesitate to call it that as IMO he had no right whatsoever to mangle the original.
17:16:12 <alise__> pro-{guns guns & MOAR GUNZ}
17:16:19 <pikhq> He's notable for maintaining the Jargon file poorly, being right wing, and working on not a hell of a lot of software.
17:16:21 <augur> whats a guns gun
17:16:30 <alise__> nothing
17:16:34 <augur> also, i dont care about the current jargon file. i was reading the original. :P
17:16:34 <pikhq> Some Emacs, C-Intercal, and fetchmail.
17:16:40 <augur> or some older version of it
17:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> augur: FREEDOM IN METAL FORM.
17:16:45 <alise__> augur: o rly.
17:16:47 <alise__> link
17:16:54 <pikhq> augur: Well, he has a few things in the original.
17:16:55 <augur> http://www.outpost9.com/reference/jargon/jargon_toc.html
17:16:55 <pikhq> :)
17:17:14 <alise__> outpost9; that domain reminds me of something...
17:17:18 <alise__> -- basically everything nice in the jargon file is in the old versions,
17:17:21 <alise__> and everything esr added is shit
17:17:23 <alise__> so there's no reason to use his at all
17:17:29 <pikhq> Though, so did pretty much everyone who was around the old jargon file.
17:17:39 <alise__> also, that outpost9 is not loading for me now
17:17:44 <alise__> also, esr even removed terms!
17:17:47 <alise__> just because they were not from HIS sector of the culture, UNIX
17:17:55 <alise__> to "reflect the modern world" yeah right
17:17:56 -!- alise_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> So are there still large non-UNIX cultures?
17:18:29 <alise__> augur: you fail
17:18:33 <alise__> new hacker's dictionary is esr publication
17:18:39 <augur> really
17:18:44 <pikhq> Yes.
17:18:52 <alise__> apparently that's pre- the amendment to that article, though
17:18:56 <alise__> or maybe it was another one, can't remember.
17:19:01 <augur> well then
17:19:03 <alise__> augur: The Hacker's Dictionary is the non-esr version
17:19:54 <alise__> augur: http://www.dourish.com/goodies/jargon.html here's the original, sloppily HTML-formatted
17:20:05 <augur> yay
17:20:57 <alise__> hey wait i just realised i have monday off!!!
17:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> From what?
17:21:12 <augur> the crazy house.
17:21:19 <oerjan> the loony bin!
17:21:33 <alise__> what they said.
17:21:48 <augur> wait wait wait
17:21:51 <augur> is a house or a bin
17:21:53 <augur> this is important
17:21:54 <pikhq> You can sleep!
17:22:00 <augur> lets not be wishy washy with our words here
17:22:00 <alise__> It's a bin... formed into a house!
17:22:00 <pikhq> augur: It's a binhouse.
17:22:01 <oerjan> is 3rd of may a british holiday?
17:22:04 <augur> AHA
17:22:04 <alise__> pikhq: Noooo I don't want to
17:22:07 <alise__> oerjan: bank holiday monday
17:22:07 <augur> a binhouse
17:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Sleep is for the weak!
17:22:17 <alise__> pikhq: I will sleep early tonight, you see
17:22:24 <augur> alise__: remind me, do you like Doctor Who or not?
17:22:31 <pikhq> augur: He's British.
17:22:33 <alise__> and thus, accounting for ultra-tiredness but still getting to bed early, will wake up at an OK time tomorrow
17:22:33 <alise__> augur: yes
17:22:37 <oerjan> britain, where the banks get their own holidays
17:22:39 <alise__> but i haven't seen the latest ones of the new seriezzz
17:22:41 <alise__> oerjan: quite
17:22:44 <pikhq> oerjan: And the US.
17:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh, I can spoil it.
17:22:51 <augur> alise__: thinkgeek sells 10th and 11th doctor sonic screwdrivers.
17:23:03 <alise__> I want laser.
17:23:06 <alise__> Who the heck would get sonic?
17:23:10 <augur> :|
17:23:29 <alise__> ...also, thanks but no thanks. Unless it actually features the supernatural powers of the original.
17:23:35 <Phantom_Hoover> What about 9th?
17:23:39 <alise__> If I bought everything cool from ThinkGeek, I'd have less than no money.
17:23:41 <Phantom_Hoover> They're different!
17:23:47 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: WAY TOO CAMP FOR HIS OWN GOOD.
17:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Ecclestone?
17:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> He was all right.
17:24:19 <alise__> Ehhhhhh I liked him at the time but Tennant was just so much better
17:24:20 <augur> dunno if 9th doctor had a different screwdriver than 10
17:24:36 <Phantom_Hoover> He did, I think.
17:25:07 <alise__> I don't notice them changing.
17:25:10 <oerjan> they're all a bit screwy *runs away*
17:25:16 <alise__> I didn't even know they changed, until now.
17:25:18 <augur> alise__: 11's is very different
17:25:26 <alise__> Yeah I've only seen two eps of 11
17:25:36 <Phantom_Hoover> There are only 4 so far.
17:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> iPlayer!
17:25:56 <augur> http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/cubegoodies/8cff/
17:25:58 <augur> thats 10's
17:26:04 <augur> http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/collectibles/d7d8/
17:26:05 <augur> that's 11'
17:26:06 <augur> s
17:26:17 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Well, I'd not iPlayer when I could get them in HD for free.
17:26:27 <alise__> Two, I sort of have other priorities; though I see you don't know of them.
17:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, they rebuilt 10's after they noticed that the merchandise was better than the prop.
17:27:24 <alise__> Not sure I like 11's.
17:27:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It's got springy vanes!
17:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Springy vanes make everything better!
17:30:22 <oerjan> `define vane
17:30:31 <augur> i need to find a place to get nitrous
17:30:40 <alise__> Amusingly, RECURSION is the tail recursion here.
17:30:49 <HackEgo> * weathervane: mechanical device attached to an elevated structure; rotates freely to show the direction of the wind \ * a fin attached to the tail of an arrow, bomb or missile in order to stabilize or guide it \ * blade: flat surface that rotates and pushes against air or water
17:30:51 <alise__> as TAIL RECURSION is trivially dead code, it can be eliminated
17:31:12 <alise__> augur: You should ask #esoteric!
17:31:19 <Deewiant> Actually "," is in the tail position
17:31:20 <augur> esoteric, here can i find nitrous!
17:31:28 <alise__> No, not here.
17:31:45 <alise__> augur: also, just go to the dentist a lot
17:31:59 <augur> dentists dont use nitrous here, afaik
17:32:03 <alise__> Move!
17:32:06 <oerjan> alise__: not necessarily true in the State monad
17:32:10 <alise__> Or, you know, stop being a wimp and get some HEROIN FUCK YEAH
17:32:25 <alise__> oerjan: you're not necessarily true in the state monad nyah
17:32:31 <oerjan> or other monads where the last command might actually be accessed first
17:32:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you could get nitrous in whipped cream squirty things.
17:33:39 <alise__> Bitrot: a language where every instruction (also data; same thing) has an associated real F (freshness) that approaches 0 as time goes on
17:33:43 <alise__> this makes the instruction "less effective"
17:33:52 <alise__> you have to refresh instructions&data by several means.
17:34:06 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; main = print $ execState loop undefined where loop = loop >> put 5
17:34:17 <EgoBot> 5
17:34:30 <alise__> Is just like magic.
17:35:08 <alise__> WATERBOTTLE SOCCER n. A deadly sport practiced mainly by Sussman's graduate students. It, along with chair bowling, is the most evident manifestation of the "locker room atmosphere" said to reign in that sphere. (Sussman doesn't approve.) [As of 11/82, it's reported that the sport has given way to a new game called "disc-boot", and Sussman even participates occasionally.]
17:35:09 <Phantom_Hoover> How did we get onto Haskell?
17:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't remember that.
17:35:19 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: That's the question underlying everything, really.
17:35:38 <alise__> WIN [from MIT jargon] 1. v. To succeed. A program wins if no unexpected conditions arise. 2. BIG WIN: n. Serendipity. Emphatic forms: MOBY WIN, SUPER WIN, HYPER-WIN (often used interjectively as a reply). For some reason SUITABLE WIN is also common at MIT, usually in reference to a satisfactory solution to a problem. See LOSE.
17:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, so *that's* what the universe is written in.
17:35:45 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i wanted to demonstrate that in haskell, loop = do loop; whatever does _not_ always mean whatever is dead code
17:35:46 <alise__> Them MITers were at it much before you interwebfangled guys.
17:37:56 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, the State monad.
17:38:15 <pikhq> How very lazy it is.
17:38:17 <pikhq> :)
17:38:32 <augur> pikhq: as an anarchist, I strongly oppose the use of the State monad.
17:38:47 <pikhq> augur: Hah.
17:38:57 <pikhq> What about the Unstate monad?
17:39:08 <augur> well thats ok
17:39:13 <oerjan> augur: do anarchists support Readers?
17:39:21 <augur> whats a reader? D:
17:39:26 <alise__> Reader's Digest
17:39:31 <alise__> we clearly need a digest function on Readers
17:39:37 <alise__> that, say, takes a bunch of reads and condenses them.
17:39:47 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Reader; main = print $ runReader loop where loop = loop >> return 5
17:39:53 <alise__> augur: here, record of esr's fucking up the jargon file -- including the pertinent political change -- http://pastie.org/942533.txt?key=s0zg82w7irl4owgr068aq
17:39:54 <oerjan> dammit
17:39:58 <alise__> from http://www.ntk.net/2003/06/06/
17:40:01 <oerjan> oh right
17:40:08 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Reader; main = print $ runReader loop undefined where loop = loop >> return 5
17:40:11 <EgoBot> 5
17:40:13 * Sgeo wonders when alise__ will start hallucinating
17:40:25 <alise__> Sgeo, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.
17:40:52 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Ford.
17:41:00 <Ford> Bah, this nick is registered
17:41:03 -!- Ford has changed nick to Sgeo.
17:41:27 <pikhq> Ah, the claim that hackers range from "moderate to neoconservative"...
17:41:27 * augur wonders when he will start hallucinating
17:41:42 <pikhq> I think ESR is the *only* neoconservative hacker.
17:42:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought he was a libertarian.
17:42:21 <augur> whats this mention of kuro5hin
17:42:29 <pikhq> And hacker politics are anything but moderate.
17:42:32 <alise__> neoconservatism - liberalism - anarchism - he thinks they are all the same
17:42:40 <alise__> errr
17:42:41 <pikhq> alise__: WHAT
17:42:44 <pikhq> So much fail.
17:42:44 <alise__> neoconservatism - libertarianism - anarchism - he thinks they are all the same
17:42:48 <pikhq> So. Much. Fail.
17:42:49 <alise__> /slight/ gaffe there
17:42:54 <alise__> (he claims to simultaneouslybe a lib & an anarchist)
17:42:57 <pikhq> Still much fail.
17:42:59 <alise__> *simultaneously be
17:43:05 <alise__> well i dunno about neo- conservatism
17:43:08 <augur> anyone?
17:43:13 <alise__> but i'm sure there is some X for X-conservatism for which that holds
17:43:18 <alise__> augur: what do you mean this mention of kuro5hin
17:43:26 <augur> the link mentions kuro5hin
17:43:27 <augur> why
17:43:29 <alise__> kuro5hin guys tend to lean left, you might say ...
17:43:31 <pikhq> alise__: Y'know the modern Republican party?
17:43:33 <alise__> and also be batshit insane on average
17:43:34 <oerjan> i could also do it with a Writer monad, but then i'd need a better Monoid than lists
17:43:38 <Sgeo> alise__, The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect, time?
17:43:39 <alise__> pikhq: why no i don't what is this thing
17:43:39 <augur> ok.
17:43:42 <pikhq> That is the face of neoconservativism.
17:43:49 <alise__> Sgeo: It is on kuro5hin; what of it?
17:43:51 <alise__> pikhq: I know.
17:43:52 <pikhq> alise__: They are fucking crazy.
17:44:01 <alise__> You do not say.
17:44:13 <Sgeo> alise__, the mention of kuro5hin reminded me of it, and that you wanted to read it at some point
17:44:21 <alise__> Not when I'm sleep-deprived.
17:44:49 * alise__ wonders which computer to unpack, and whether to run Ubuntu 10.04, some form of BSD, OS X, or other on it
17:45:31 <Phantom_Hoover> If I can ever get that E-SNUSP interpreter finished, there might actually be an esoteric one.
17:46:34 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; import Data.Monoid; main = print . head . getDual $ execWriter loop where loop = loop >> tell (Dual "hi")
17:46:37 <EgoBot> 'h'
17:46:54 <Phantom_Hoover> !help
17:46:54 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
17:47:14 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.Writer; import Data.Monoid; main = print . head . getDual $ execWriter loop where loop = loop >> tell (Dual ["hi"])
17:47:17 <EgoBot> "hi"
17:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> !help languages
17:47:22 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:47:39 <Phantom_Hoover> !unlambda i
17:47:48 <oerjan> that's pretty much a nop
17:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> !lazyk i
17:47:53 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
17:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
17:48:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Talking to a bot...
17:48:08 <oerjan> alas, not all the old interpreters are properly installed
17:48:23 <oerjan> (i think)
17:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> !lazyk
17:48:27 <EgoBot> Couldn't fork sub-program.
17:48:51 <oerjan> that's the error message it gives for that, i think
17:49:07 <oerjan> !unlamba ``.h.ii
17:49:13 <oerjan> !unlambda ``.h.ii
17:49:13 <EgoBot> hi
17:49:50 <fizzie> Talking to a bot is the sign of a well-adjusted mind.
17:49:54 <fizzie> Wouldn't you agree, fungot?
17:49:54 <fungot> fizzie: even if it were
17:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It fungot a bot?
17:50:11 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: since the pre-scheme value's type is inferred from that.
17:50:19 <fizzie> Yes, it a bot.
17:50:20 <oerjan> ^source
17:50:20 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
17:50:20 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot: I agree.
17:50:21 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: oh, no, i use the proposals interface). it's also the biggest and best game i had...
17:51:02 <oerjan> ^ul (Hello there!)S
17:51:02 <fungot> Hello there!
17:51:16 <alise__> fungot is the best befunge-98 bot ever; also the only
17:51:17 <fungot> alise__: i guess it's a bit... terse?
17:51:57 <alise__> ,,, :D
17:51:59 <alise__> *...
17:53:33 <alise__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Calculon this language is not mathematical at all
17:54:01 <Phantom_Hoover> It's almost as good as that proposal for Brainfuck II.
17:54:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I liked that.
17:54:29 <oerjan> alise__: sheesh don't you know numbers == math
17:54:49 <alise__> IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW
17:54:54 <alise__> especially a mutable stack of numbers
17:55:32 <alise__> fizzie: oh my god do you still have the q[uick]basic stuff
17:56:07 <fizzie> Possibly somewhere.
17:56:12 -!- coppro has joined.
17:56:19 <fizzie> Which of the stuff?
17:56:29 <alise__> fizzie: Well, the ultra-illegal QuickBasic ware-ess.
17:56:31 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:56:46 <alise__> Oops, coppro won't be happy with me infringing copyright! :P
17:56:49 <zzo38> Should they add a code like this in anarchy golf service? http://pastebin.com/pVFjhRBq
17:57:25 <coppro> alise__: die, heathen!
17:57:41 <zzo38> Is it even correct? I don't know much about Ruby programming
17:57:48 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a party for that sort of thing.
17:58:00 <alise__> zzo38: what's it meant to do?
17:58:49 <coppro> doesn't Ruby use sigils?
17:58:55 <zzo38> You have to add "inputfix" field in the submit form, and then you can fix the input sent to the program, in case the input is broken
18:00:02 <zzo38> coppro: I don't know.
18:00:19 <coppro> IIRC it does, and I don't see a single sigil in that paste
18:01:07 <Deewiant> It uses some sigils but that paste doesn't need any
18:01:10 <zzo38> But this program doesn't have a lot of sigils either: http://github.com/shinh/ags/blob/master/fe/fcgi/submit.rb
18:13:40 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: Supper and cricket).
18:15:51 <alise__> The DOS cursor blinks Too Fast Aiee.
18:16:06 <alise__> coppro: ruby uses sigils for some things
18:16:11 <alise__> @foo is instance var, @@foo is class var
18:16:13 <alise__> $foo is global
18:16:13 <alise__> that's it
18:16:15 <coppro> ah
18:16:25 <alise__> also @foo is mostly only used for assignment of private vars
18:16:31 <alise__> since you usually define accessors so "foo" and "self.foo =" work
18:16:48 <coppro> in other news, fuck MPEG-LA
18:19:11 <zzo38> alise__: If the DOS cursor blinks too fast I think it is the video card (or BIOS) which blinks it, not DOS itself? (I wonder if it is possible to slow down the video card (and still have it work correctly)) (Also, I think it blinks OK speed, it is not too fast)
18:19:29 <coppro> things should be "amusing" come 2015
18:19:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
18:19:41 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro: Why?
18:19:52 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: That's when the free license expires
18:20:02 <coppro> (for H.264)
18:20:14 <zzo38> (And then there is MegaZeux, which just emulates the cursor (and in PZX versions, blinking text as well))
18:20:14 <coppro> Unless MPEG-LA extends it again, then everyone using H.264 on the Internet for any purpose will be liable to them
18:21:03 <alise__> zzo38: I think cursors shouldn't blink at all.
18:21:06 <alise__> Pointless distraction.
18:21:08 <alise__> hi ais523
18:21:17 <coppro> yeah, nethack looks bad with blinking cursors
18:21:17 <alise__> Anyway, it's DOSBox, so...
18:21:20 <alise__> No idea howto stop it blinking.
18:21:20 <ais523> hi alise__
18:21:32 <alise__> Blink blink blink blink look at me I am where you are typing; you are too dumb-fuck retarded to find me otherwise.
18:21:32 <ais523> coppro: I don't mind NetHack with blinking cursors
18:21:34 <pikhq> The MPEG-LA can go to hell, as can everyone backing them.
18:21:40 <coppro> yep
18:21:42 <alise__> I hope you don't have epilepblink blink blink blink
18:21:56 <ais523> also, the H.64 licence isn't free for all purposes
18:22:00 <pikhq> Also: Google, could you, like, *release* VP-8?
18:22:05 <zzo38> coppro: Then use Theora for videos if you can't use H.264. Also, wouldn't the patent expire one day
18:22:07 * alise__ reenters the blissful harmony that is BASIC.
18:22:09 <pikhq> ais523: Only free for streaming.
18:22:12 <ais523> yep
18:22:16 <pikhq> Not *encoding* or *decoding*.
18:22:17 <alise__> theora, alas, has piss-poor quality compared to H.264.
18:22:23 <ais523> pikhq: oh, encoding needs a licence too?
18:22:27 <pikhq> Yes.
18:22:27 <alise__> thankfully, most of the time you'd be illegally obtaining your H.264s too
18:22:30 <alise__> so it hardly matters :)))
18:22:35 <ais523> alise__: you mean, less quality per byte
18:22:37 <zzo38> alise__: Which version of BASIC? There is a lot
18:22:38 <pikhq> x264 is very illegal.
18:22:40 <coppro> ais523: Yeah. I didn't say it was. I merely said that in 2015, all uses become un-free
18:22:45 <ais523> theora can be just as high quality, it just takes around twice the space
18:22:48 <alise__> ais523: well, no
18:22:57 <alise__> maybe if you shot up the quality lots and lots
18:23:00 <ais523> (aren't they both lossless in the limit?)
18:23:01 <fizzie> The dosbox blinker is a bit overkill, though; I don't recall my real DOS-running computers blinking quite so hard.
18:23:01 <pikhq> I only use it because, well: I'm already encoding deCSS'd DVDs. It's not like I can break the law *more*.
18:23:04 <pikhq> :)
18:23:14 <alise__> but theora loses to h.264 pretty much no matter what
18:23:14 <alise__> x264 is amazing
18:23:17 <coppro> in any case, legality does depend on jurisdiction
18:23:26 <zzo38> And, for sure Theora can be improved in the future, if someone can improve it more
18:23:33 <pikhq> x264 is the best h.264 encoder, IIRC.
18:23:34 <coppro> if you're outside the US, you're about 10000000x safer than inside
18:23:36 <alise__> Dark Shikari is da man
18:23:39 <alise__> pikhq: yes
18:23:42 <alise__> zzo38: It isn't improved now though
18:23:45 <alise__> and some of us want high-quality video :)
18:23:47 <pikhq> zzo38: It will probably just be superceded by VP-8.
18:24:07 <ais523> H.264 is perfectly fine in the UK, though, isn't it?
18:24:13 <pikhq> Which Google *should* be releasing for free usage in $soon.
18:24:13 <alise__> probably
18:24:14 <zzo38> alise__: Yes. It isn't improved now. However in my opinion it is sufficient for most purposes
18:24:14 <ais523> because the only way to enforce the licences is software patents?
18:24:24 <pikhq> ais523: Yes, it's a patent license.
18:24:25 <alise__> zzo38: Some of us have good eyesight :-)
18:24:32 <ais523> the H.264 algorithm is opened source in the Microsoft sense, after all
18:24:37 <pikhq> Meaning x264 is just fine in the UK.
18:24:41 <alise__> DEFtype If BASICA encounters a variable without an explicit type (indicated by !, #, &, $, or %), it uses the default type set by the most recent DEFtype statement. For example, the type of the variable IFLAG changes from integer to single precision in the following BASICA code fragment:
18:24:41 <alise__> 10 DEFINT I 20 PRINT IFLAG 30 DEFSNG I 40 GOTO 20
18:24:43 <alise__> what a horrible feature
18:24:54 <alise__> oh, it isn't in qbasico
18:24:55 <alise__> *qbasic
18:24:56 <alise__> phew :P
18:24:57 <ais523> alise__: qbasic does that too
18:25:01 <coppro> Absolutely; if there are no software patents then there is no incentive to accept the license terms
18:25:01 <alise__> nope
18:25:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
18:25:06 <alise__> you can't change a var's type after it's defined
18:25:06 <ais523> DEFINT i and all variables starting with i become integers
18:25:08 <alise__> straight from http://zem.fi/~fis/qbu.html
18:25:15 <alise__> (which is the most beautifully-typeset QBasic manual, ever)
18:25:15 <ais523> oh, yep, you have to do it before the first use of the variable
18:25:20 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, I prefer getting very good quality and low space on my already-illegal DVD rips. :)
18:25:22 <coppro> existing licenses would possibly still be enforceable
18:25:23 <alise__> fizzie: do you have one for QuickBasic, I wonder?
18:25:28 <ais523> I missed that BASICA could cast variables on the fly
18:25:33 <fizzie> They stole that feature from FORTRAN, I think.
18:25:36 <zzo38> In QBASIC it does that when the program is parsed at first instead, but other than that is the same. And I do use DEFINT in QBASIC sometimes
18:25:40 <ais523> (by the way, does it cast it as reinterpret_cast, or as static_cast?)
18:25:43 <zzo38> But usually DEFINT A-Z
18:25:59 <ais523> zzo38: why don't you use trailing sigils instead?
18:26:03 <ais523> as in, a%
18:26:07 <fizzie> IMPLICIT CHARACTER(C) -- and then everything that starts with C is a character.
18:26:18 <alise__> pikhq: wait, you own DVDs?
18:26:18 <alise__> Why?
18:26:25 <ais523> fizzie: doesn't FORTRAN have some implicits set up by default?
18:26:27 <pikhq> alise__: I'm given them.
18:26:35 <alise__> │ \\ Integer division symbol │ │ (reserved for │ │ (backslash) │ │ compatibility with other │
18:26:39 <alise__> Double escape error, fizzie?
18:26:39 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, in fact I only use DEFtype when it is A-Z otherwise I do use trailing sigils
18:26:42 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, I think I, J for integers might have been defaults.
18:26:51 <zzo38> Or using AS (depending on the circumstance)
18:26:52 <pikhq> I *also* will check out DVDs from the dorm's front desk and rip them, and borrow DVDs from people for the sole purpose of renting them.
18:27:00 <pikhq> Erm.
18:27:01 <pikhq> Ripping.
18:27:12 <alise__> Fun fact, http://zem.fi/~fis/qbu.html is better documentation than the entirety of Ruby's :P
18:27:23 <alise__> Everything you need to know, right there, 100% honest
18:27:47 <fizzie> alise__: No, I don't have the QuickBasic manuals; the scripts I were using for generating those HTML versions need the original .hlp file sources, and the Microsoft tool I found for converting from binary to the source format barfed on the actual full quickbasic manual. It's in multiple files and all; might've been too much for it.
18:27:47 <pikhq> It would seem I can *encode* 480p h.264 at 140fps on my current CPU.
18:27:48 <zzo38> If you want good quality video, perhaps you can make a video cartridge that can store uncompressed video, and can be seeked and recorded like a VCR
18:27:51 <pikhq> Which is pretty nice.
18:28:08 <alise__> fizzie: I'll just use the QBasic manual + Google for QuickBasic, then.
18:28:12 <ais523> zzo38: hmm, interesting idea
18:28:15 <alise__> The main advantage is programs running faster, anyway.
18:28:24 <alise__> pikhq: what about 1080p?
18:28:25 <pikhq> zzo38: The only reason we don't deal in losslessly compressed video is that it uses a *lot* of space.
18:28:42 <ais523> probably in the future, storage will be voluminous and fast enough that people won't bother compressing at all
18:28:46 <ais523> but it might take another 10 to 20 years
18:28:48 <alise__> I like how anime encoders take it even further than, you know, just insanely high-quality x264; they literally play with quality settings for months.
18:28:53 <pikhq> I had 20G for a lossless 1080p copy of Elephant's Dream.
18:28:53 <alise__> Because it really matters, man!
18:29:02 <alise__> ais523: i don't know, 1080p raw HD is /very/ big
18:29:17 <pikhq> alise__: Which is kinda silly. After all, x264 is really, really good for anime.
18:29:32 <alise__> Yes; it's their main comparison material :-P
18:29:35 <pikhq> Also. 1080p raw HD is pretty big. Lossless compression of that is somewhat less so.
18:29:42 <alise__> Tbqh 90% of anime is... really easy to encode.
18:29:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know that. I'm actually talking completely uncompressed video (not just compressed losslessly), so that it can be seeked and recorded over at exact points. And I know you don't need to deal with it. I mean if someone made a large enough video cartridge with these features, like a external hard drive but optimized for video
18:29:46 <alise__> Being mostly blocks of colour.
18:29:57 <alise__> lossless decompression is slow though
18:30:10 <ais523> alise__: I wonder if anime encodes better as H.264 or as an animated GIF?
18:30:14 <coppro> Hmm
18:30:17 <ais523> it's the sort of thing that you'd expect the second would be good for
18:30:18 <pikhq> HuffYUV is "extremely fast".
18:30:25 <pikhq> ais523: h.264.
18:30:27 <pikhq> GIF *sucks ass*.
18:30:34 <fizzie> 20G sounds really pretty small. Even the digital movies they distribute to real theaters aren't lossless; according to one article, they encode each frame as a separate JPEG2000 file, and distribute by sending a few-hundred-gigabyte HD around.
18:30:37 <ais523> pikhq: yes, I can believe that GIF is really that bad
18:30:41 <coppro> GIF is horrible
18:30:44 <ais523> (MNG, if you want something more modern)
18:30:47 <pikhq> fizzie: Elephant's Dream is 10 minutes long.
18:30:54 <zzo38> Perhaps you can make "Anime Codec"?
18:30:59 <fizzie> pikhq: Oh, okay, then.
18:31:09 <alise__> Anime codec? Pointless.
18:31:16 <alise__> Detailed images, and simple images. Handle them both,
18:31:19 <alise__> *.
18:31:25 <alise__> Anything that can handle the former will be trivial to extend to do the latter.
18:31:28 <alise__> Job done.
18:31:28 <Sgeo> AWESOME
18:31:32 <pikhq> It was about 25G as individual PNGs.
18:31:36 <coppro> why did PNG reject APNG?
18:31:44 <Sgeo> The glasses even give clarity to crosseyed 3d images on my computer screen
18:31:45 <alise__> MNG exists?
18:31:46 <alise__> i guess
18:31:51 <pikhq> (... I had just gotten a new terabyte drive, had Internet2 bandwidth, and was curious how much space it took up)
18:32:14 <alise__> what's the highest-res QBasic mode with good colour I wonder
18:32:27 <zzo38> alise__: How many colors do you want?
18:32:28 <ais523> 12 I think, that's 640x480
18:32:30 <alise__> SCREEN 8, it seems
18:32:30 <pikhq> Archive.org from a university campus is *really* nice. You're limited by the Ethernet bandwidth. :)
18:32:31 <fizzie> They're the VGA video modes directly.
18:32:33 <ais523> all the higher resolutions were black-and-white IIRC
18:32:44 <alise__> that gets you 80x25 text, 640x200 graphics, and 16-pallette colour
18:32:47 <alise__> surely you can get more than 16...
18:32:58 <alise__> oh, I just need SCREEN 11 or 12
18:33:03 <alise__> 12
18:33:05 <ais523> alise__: 12 gets you 80x30 text, 640x480 graphics, and 16-palette colour
18:33:11 <fizzie> I guess it's missing the more screwy VGA modes you can get by mogling the registers.
18:33:19 <alise__> also my arrow keys are not working in qbasic WHY NOT
18:33:24 <alise__> ■ Assignment of up to 256K colors to 16 attributes
18:33:29 <zzo38> You can have 80x30 or 80x60 text in mode 12
18:33:30 <alise__> 12 gets me 256k colours.
18:33:35 <alise__> or are the 16 ones attributes
18:33:35 <ais523> alise__: only 16 at a time, though
18:33:38 <alise__> ah
18:33:40 <alise__> well that's fine
18:33:40 <coppro> pikhq: what was the method for the compression?
18:33:44 <alise__> now why aren't my arrow keys working ffff
18:33:52 <ais523> alise__: also, somehow, nearly all those 256K colours were almost identical shades of green
18:33:56 <ais523> IIRC
18:34:10 <ais523> or maybe I was just getting the colour redefinition wrong
18:34:12 <fizzie> ais523: It's six bits each for R, G, B; that shouldn't all be "shades of green".
18:34:21 <ais523> yes, agreed
18:34:22 <pikhq> coppro: Ffmpeg HuffYUV.
18:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, know of any easy way to disassemble a file that is isn't an object file, just raw x86 instructions
18:34:27 <zzo38> No, it isn't all shades of green unless you are using the wrong range of numbers
18:34:28 <alise__> SERIOUSLY WHY
18:34:29 <alise__> WHY DOESN'T THIS WORK
18:34:30 <pikhq> With FLAC audio.
18:34:33 <alise__> WHY DO ARROW KEYS OPEN THE MENU
18:34:40 <ais523> AnMaster: The Windows program DEBUG.COM could do it
18:34:42 <coppro> pikhq: neat
18:34:48 <AnMaster> ais523, on linux I mean
18:34:49 <pikhq> Works quite well.
18:34:53 <AnMaster> ais523, and x86_64
18:35:01 <ais523> AnMaster: blit it into memory, then load it in gdb
18:35:06 <zzo38> Use the correct range of numbers for the colors, as according to the manual
18:35:17 <AnMaster> ais523, hah I was just about to say that there must be some simpler way than that
18:35:18 <ais523> zzo38: I think using the wrong range is likely
18:35:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: objdump
18:35:23 <fizzie> You can get a VGA card up to 360x480 with a 256 color-palette (out of those 256k), but qbasic "screen" command only does the standard modes, so that's limited to 320x200 for 256-color modes.
18:35:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, "unknown file format"
18:35:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, it wants ELF
18:35:35 <AnMaster> this is raw instructions
18:35:44 <ais523> fizzie: ah, I always wondered how to get that mode as a child, I knew it existed
18:35:51 <alise__> aha
18:35:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: nasm's "ndisasm" tool can take raw files.
18:35:54 <alise__> just had to disable scancodes
18:36:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm that would mean intel syntax but meh. didn't have nasm around on that computer
18:36:23 <AnMaster> but useful to know in the future
18:36:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: objdump -b binary -M i386
18:36:32 <pikhq> I think.
18:36:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, x86_64 but...
18:36:37 <coppro> hmm... I had a funny idea
18:36:43 <fizzie> ais523: If you still wonder, http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article373.asp
18:36:46 <coppro> (disclaimer: idea is not actually funny)
18:36:51 <zzo38> alise__: Can you make QBASIC vector drawings? I should need a few created for my solitaire card program? (If not alise__, anyone else will also do)
18:36:51 <pikhq> objdump -b binary -M x86-64
18:37:15 <alise__> zzo38: I'm no good at using DRAW.
18:37:16 <zzo38> I know the commands for QBASIC vector drawings but I'm not as good at actual drawing the picture
18:37:34 <ais523> myndzi: stop making the logs detect as binary rather than text
18:37:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm objdump -b binary -M x86-64 -d file.dump doesn't work, it gives me "objdump: Can't disassemble for architecture UNKNOWN"
18:38:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, and objdump --help says x86-64 should work
18:38:17 <fizzie> AnMaster: You want maybe -m instead of -M?
18:38:19 <zzo38> I have made a few vector drawings in QBASIC, such as for suits and numbers, already
18:38:30 <pikhq> Yeah, that.
18:38:34 <fizzie> -m machine, -M options.
18:38:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay *now* it is getting cryptic: "objdump: Can't use supplied machine x86-64"
18:38:48 <AnMaster> no clue what that means
18:38:54 <alise__> The shitty thing about QBasic: automatic syntax checking & reformatting just by moving off the line
18:38:57 <zzo38> But I don't have picture for: Oscar Wilde, Baker, Spider, King
18:39:03 <ais523> hmm, why /would/ VGA have a completely undocumented high-resolution (for the time) 256-colour mode?
18:39:33 <fizzie> ais523: Maybe it's a job security feature so that good programmers can stay employed?
18:39:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, any idea about that?
18:39:39 <zzo38> alise__: You should be able to turn off the error message by a menu.
18:39:49 <ais523> fizzie: I don't even see how that would help with job security
18:39:52 <zzo38> But you can't turn off the reformatting, I think.
18:39:56 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe it was unreliable?
18:40:14 <ais523> could be
18:40:17 <zzo38> You can just use a different program to edit it and compile it using the command-line instead, that can work (if you have QuickBasic Extended)
18:40:35 <ais523> the page fizzie linked implies that its interface was completely insane
18:40:35 <AnMaster> ais523, so it was "disabled" in the very last minute
18:40:47 <AnMaster> ais523, you read a link?
18:40:49 <AnMaster> !?
18:40:54 <zzo38> Do you have QBASIC vector drawings of these things?
18:41:09 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, looked it up in the logs because it seemed genuinely useful
18:41:14 <ais523> unlike the vast majority of links in existence
18:41:19 <AnMaster> ais523, the gamedev one?
18:41:27 <alise__> "illegal function call"; thanks, real helpful.
18:41:27 <ais523> yes
18:41:48 <zzo38> alise__: It will highlight the line is wrong, so you can know what is wrong
18:42:03 <alise__> what's the default type in basic? or should i always use sigils...
18:42:10 <zzo38> The default type is SINGLE
18:42:15 <zzo38> Unless you use DEFtype to change the default type
18:42:22 <ais523> alise__: single-precision float
18:42:30 <zzo38> I usually change it to INTEGER by using the command DEFINT A-Z at the top of the program
18:42:46 <alise__> Hmm, my program fails rather badly at Pythagoras' theorem.
18:42:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not really. I can get a dump of a binary file for x86-32 with "objdump -b binary -m i386 -D fibre.bef" but I don't know what it will want for "-m" to do 64 bits.
18:43:11 <ais523> I normally just always use sigils, single-precision floats are generally a bad format to use nowadays unless you want to store loads in memory
18:43:50 <pikhq> fizzie: x86-64
18:44:00 <pikhq> I thought.
18:44:08 <fizzie> pikhq: Not here, it doesn't. "Can't use supplied machine x86-64"
18:44:12 <pikhq> No, wait. i386:x86-64
18:44:28 <fizzie> Yes, that seems to work.
18:44:39 <ais523> hmm, seems that in Mode X, you store images as four images, each of which stores every fourth pixel from the originals
18:44:44 <alise__> HOW DOES THIS FAIL SO BADLY
18:44:51 <alise__> I' NO' RI'
18:45:00 <fizzie> Annoyingly, the "-i" info listing shows only "machines" (like i386), not the variants like that.
18:46:41 <alise__> Heh, what, timesing it by sqrt(2) works.
18:47:45 <fizzie> ais523: As for the job security, if the mode's a closely-guarded secret, and genuinely useful, it means you'll have to hire a programmer from the Inner Circle if you want to enjoy it.
18:48:02 <AnMaster> <ais523> I normally just always use sigils <-- sigils? Presumably some floating point format but...?
18:48:17 <AnMaster> <pikhq> No, wait. i386:x86-64 <-- ah thanks
18:48:23 <alise__> THIS MAKES NO SENSE GUYS.
18:48:57 <fizzie> AnMaster: The little things at the beginning or end of variables, like $foo or foo% or whatever.
18:49:11 <fizzie> "In computer programming, a sigil (pronounced /'sɪdʒ.ɪl/ or /'sɪg.ɪl/; plural sigilia or sigils) is a symbol attached to a variable name, showing the variable's datatype or scope."
18:49:20 <AnMaster> ah okay
18:49:24 <fizzie> (I just wanted some more IPA characters on-channel.)
18:49:39 <fizzie> Also I haven't really seen people use the "sigilia" plural anywhere.
18:49:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, is it sigils if the language use a single one for all types of variables?
18:49:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, like bash does
18:50:00 <coppro> yes
18:50:02 <AnMaster> it has strings and arrays, both use $
18:50:04 <AnMaster> ah
18:50:15 <coppro> it designates that it is a variable
18:50:29 <fizzie> Well, it's arguable. Wikipedia disagrees, for example.
18:50:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, but what does this have to do with floating point?
18:50:42 <fizzie> "Many people confuse this [the $ in shells and Makefiles] with a sigil, but it is properly a unary operator for lexical indirection, similar to the * indirection operator for pointers in C"
18:50:51 <ais523> fizzie: reading through this guide, my personal theory is that the mode wasn't added deliberately
18:50:59 <AnMaster> ais523, heh?
18:51:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: That I don't know; I haven't read the context.
18:51:01 <ais523> but happened by mistake, as a result of undefined behaviour
18:51:06 <coppro> ah, okay
18:51:14 <coppro> I'll accept that argument
18:51:17 <AnMaster> ais523, but it still persisted in clones?
18:51:27 <coppro> PHP is a proper example
18:51:28 <fizzie> ais523: Yes, that's possible. It's certainly "based on" the other planar video modes.
18:51:38 <ais523> after all, if a card's designed to do graphicsy stuff, it's likely that other weird combinations are going to act in a graphicsy way
18:51:49 <AnMaster> hah
18:52:25 <fizzie> As for it still working in all later hardware, it was used quite a lot, so they'd be fools not to support it.
18:52:33 <fizzie> O
18:52:57 <fizzie> I wonder how well Mode X trickery works with really modern graphics cards that still do some sort of VGA, though.
18:53:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, don't all modern cards do a bit of VGA, for use during BIOS and such
18:54:01 <alise__> does qbasic work if you use lowercase, I woner.
18:54:02 <alise__> wonder
18:54:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: A bit, but maybe not quite all.
18:54:26 <AnMaster> hm, would make sense
18:54:40 <alise__> Yes but it just reformats it anyway :D
18:54:43 <fizzie> ais523: As for the "completely undocumented", they might be exaggerating a bit. Wikipedia article says of Mode X that: "Even though planar memory mode was a documented part of the VGA standard, it was first widely publicized in the Mode X articles, leading many programmers to consider Mode X and planar memory synonymous. It is possible to enable planar memory in standard 320x200 mode."
18:55:03 <ais523> hmm, OK
18:55:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you mean with planar memory?
18:55:29 <alise__> It is so weird how the functions disappear from the main source
18:56:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: What "Mode X" does; you get four planes, each containing every fourth pixel of the video memory, and (if you want) you can write onto all four plaines with a single-byte write.
18:56:47 <fizzie> Useful for filling large areas, for example.
18:57:03 <fizzie> A bit complicated around the edges, of course, since you have to fiddle about which planes to enable.
18:57:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, onto all planes at once?
18:57:08 <AnMaster> ??
18:57:16 <AnMaster> huh
18:57:33 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner]).
18:59:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: I seem to recall that the 16-color modes are all planar; every pixel is one bit in video memory, and you just enable which bitplanes you want to write. The Mode X trick just does the same for the 256-color mode, which is usually a packed-pixel "normal" mode.
18:59:17 <AnMaster> eh
18:59:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, you mean like 8 planes, and one plane for each bit?
18:59:42 <AnMaster> or something like that?
18:59:50 <AnMaster> or rather, 4 or such I guess
19:00:03 <AnMaster> to get 16 colours
19:00:13 <fizzie> For 16 colors, yes, like that.
19:00:38 <AnMaster> one question: why?
19:00:50 <alise__> Woohoo, my program successfully uses Pythagoras' theorem to draw a triangle. Now I am a genius.
19:01:03 <fizzie> It's faster, obviously, since you can plot a value on eight pixels with a single-byte write.
19:01:15 <fizzie> It's also more complicated, which is the drawback.
19:01:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, but if you don't want to overwrite 8 pixels at once?
19:01:34 <zzo38> QBASIC is not case-sensitive. It works in lowercase or uppercase
19:02:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: Then you have to read-modify-write. Or keep a copy to avoid the read.
19:02:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, what with the memory sizes back then I doubt the latter was really fun
19:02:35 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, and another advantage is that you only need one fourth of the addressing space you'd otherwise needs, since the bitplanes are "on top of each other".
19:02:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus you still need to update that
19:03:02 <zzo38> The instructions for GET (graphics) command will tell you how many planes there are
19:03:25 <AnMaster> zzo38, assuming qbasic?
19:03:40 <zzo38> Usually I prefer DEFINT but in some cases (such as WEBPLOT) program, DEFDBL is more useful.
19:03:50 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes, I do mean QBASIC, of course.
19:04:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, I was thinking in terms of asm here mostly
19:04:29 <alise__> WEBPLOT?
19:04:47 <zzo38> AnMaster: If you use the same screen mode in QBASIC or ASM, hopefully the number of planes should be same, you could try it to figure out
19:05:20 <ais523> hmm, it seems that the FSF are trying to join in in the Apple/Adobe mudslinging match
19:05:21 <zzo38> WEBPLOT does graphing function like the graphing calculator, but with colors and a few more functions as well
19:05:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, I'm only interested in this in an historical kind of way. I doubt I will ever write code using this...
19:05:25 <ais523> I haven't checked what they said yet
19:05:35 <alise__> zzo38: yours?
19:05:43 <zzo38> AnMaster: Then search the video mode documents
19:05:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what is that match? I have completely missed that.
19:05:54 <zzo38> alise__: My what are you refering to?
19:06:00 <alise__> zzo38: is webplot yours?
19:06:07 <zzo38> alise__: Yes
19:06:11 <alise__> cool, any download?
19:06:14 <fizzie> AnMaster: The memory space advantage is especially important here, since the usual 320*200 screen is 64000 bytes; you can't program in a square-pixel 320x240 mode because 320*240 bytes is more than 2^16 and it doesn't fit in the 64k video memory range. When you cut that down to 1/4, you can fit two 320*240 pages there, and can do hardware-driven double-buffering/page-flipping.
19:06:24 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/webplot.zip
19:06:32 <AnMaster> hah
19:06:35 <ais523> AnMaster: basically, Adobe are annoyed with Apple for not letting them compile Flash programs onto the iPhone
19:06:47 <ais523> and Apple are annoyed at Adobe for some other reason
19:07:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ah that, I heard about that apple forbid it, but I missed the responses.
19:07:08 <alise__> zzo38: compiled -- with quickbasic?
19:07:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can't figure out how you can do sane blitting of sprites and such in mode x
19:07:18 <zzo38> alise__: Yes it is compiled
19:07:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, or even insane
19:07:23 <alise__> with quickbasic?
19:07:27 <ais523> wow, and it seems to have hit mainstream UK newspapers
19:07:33 <alise__> also gosub instead of sub/call, oldschool man :P
19:07:34 <zzo38> Yes, with QuickBasic Extended
19:08:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, plus page flip, would that be changing some of the planes to some other ones or what?
19:08:13 <zzo38> In my programs, I use both GOSUB and SUB for different purposes, also depending on the program. SOLITAIRE CARD uses both (but SUB and FUNCTION mostly)
19:08:42 <alise__> zzo38: i'm going to try webplot though i've not read the docs
19:08:48 <alise__> i assume xmin=xmax will not help..
19:09:00 <alise__> oh, _ is minus
19:09:17 <zzo38> It is RPN
19:09:43 <zzo38> You can put a filename on the command line to load it (it will also save to that file once you quit)
19:09:51 <zzo38> Push TAB to switch between graph and editing
19:09:51 <alise__> is REFERENCE just a note field?
19:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: try a Google search for "Apple Adobe"; I'm reading many of the top results, and they're pretty interesting
19:10:19 <zzo38> No. REFERENCE is the function for the red line, but in terms of x=f(y) instead of y=f(x). CURRENT is the cyan line in terms of y=f(x).
19:10:21 <AnMaster> ais523, okay
19:10:26 <ais523> especially as there's a whole set of different biases there
19:10:38 <ais523> (yes, I'm the sort of person who doesn't suggest a search without first trying it myself and reading several of the reuslts)
19:10:40 <ais523> *results
19:10:46 <alise__> zzo38: now make it solve equations and do derivatives and you're set for life
19:11:13 <zzo38> alise__: I suppose I could add that some time, maybe (or maybe not), but not necessarily right now
19:11:21 <alise__> well i meant as separate programs
19:11:30 <alise__> although without variables, would be hard-pressed to do solving/derivatives
19:11:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: If you want insane blitting, just change the plane-writing mask for each pixel of the sprite. If you want to change it less often, divide the sprite data to four planes like that and write it in four stages. And page-flipping means just what it normally does; you have two pages (four planes in each) worth of data in the video memory, and you can change which one is visible.
19:12:15 <zzo38> WEBPLOT does have three "manipulator variables" which range from -1..1 when on the graph screen you push A or B or C to select one and then use the arrow keys to manipulate its value.
19:12:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah, I only used page flipping with some nice high level API between me and the hardware. SDL iirc.
19:12:59 <zzo38> Try loading LOGISTIC.WPL and then, after pushing TAB, push A or B or C and manipulate the values to see an example of how it works. (This file is a logistic map example)
19:13:06 <alise__> apparently structured if statements is an advanced feature not supported by qbasic
19:13:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, as for storing it plane by plane, it seems rather messy if the sprite moves 1 pixel left or right. As far as I can figure out that would mean the first plane would be a different one
19:13:54 <zzo38> Structured IF statements are supported by QBASIC, but not as well as some other programming languages.
19:13:55 <AnMaster> plus a number of other issues
19:14:35 <alise__> zzo38: if you actually did write an equation solver / symbolic differentiator in BASIC I'd be in awe
19:14:37 <alise__> would take godlike powers
19:14:45 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, you don't always copy sprite plane 0 to video-plane 0, but why would that be a problem? There's a bit more work to compute where you need to start, though.
19:15:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes and rotating sprites stored that way would be very painful
19:15:11 <zzo38> Differentiation is not so difficult when you write it in expanded polynomial form.
19:15:22 <alise__> zzo38: differentiation is pretty easy; it's just rewriting expressions
19:15:31 <alise__> but you need a tree style (+; a; b) nested structure for that -- hard in basic --
19:15:36 <alise__> you need to parse the expression -- hard in basic --
19:15:42 <alise__> then you need to turn it into something you can evaluate elsewhere --
19:15:44 <alise__> hard in basic.
19:16:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, in that case you can keep it in memory as packed-pixel, and just write first every fourth pixel to plane 0, then the ones after those to plane 1, and so on.
19:16:12 <zzo38> Yes, I know BASIC is not meant for those things very well. That is why other programming languages exists, too.
19:16:54 <zzo38> However, I have written a program to calculate polynomials in VBA (Excel). It should be easy to make that to differentiation.
19:16:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't that be slower? Or weren't systems able to read/write more than 8 bits at a time back then anyway?
19:17:53 <AnMaster> (presumably they could do 16-bit or maybe 32-bit mov even back then)
19:17:56 <fizzie> AnMaster: If I recall correctly (I might not), for hardwarely reasons you can't move data more than a byte at a time from the CPU to the video memory, even though it might provide an illusion of wider writes.
19:18:05 <alise__> zzo38: then all you have to do is tie those three things together as functions, add basic variables, and give it some syntax
19:18:15 <alise__> and you've got yourself the world's first and last BASIC computer algebra system
19:18:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, that would have been back then, today I'm 100% certain you can, since video memory is normally WC (write combine)
19:18:48 <zzo38> alise__: It is VBA however, not QBASIC.
19:18:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: Anyhow, for blitting you can also put stuff into the video memory. There's some hardware help for moving data between different regions of video memory. At the least, it allows you to do real 32-bit read/writes via a VGA "data latch" register.
19:19:10 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, today you'll use the GPU hardware for everything, even physics.
19:19:16 <alise__> zzo38: Close enough, just rewrite it :P Also, it could be any BASIC-y BASIC, not just Q.
19:19:19 <alise__> (Not VB or anything.)
19:19:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And buses are wider anyway.
19:19:46 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/Ploynomial_Functions.bas
19:19:48 <fizzie> AnMaster: With a VGA card in the ISA bus, I'm pretty sure it's one-byte writes all the way.
19:19:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, "latch" from how it was implemented in hardware presumably?
19:20:03 <alise__> Ploynomial?
19:20:10 <zzo38> (It only works for single-variables polynomials, however)
19:20:19 <zzo38> Sorry, it should be s/Ploy/Poly/
19:20:21 <alise__> http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/ImprovedUnearthedArcana/Polynomial_Functions.bas clearly yes :P
19:21:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, which seems rather low level description of it.. (Also, why a latch instead of a flip-flop. I thought async circuits was rather messier to use?)
19:22:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: That's just what people call it; it might not necessarily correspond to the hardware implementation, just the "semantics" of it.
19:22:33 <AnMaster> right
19:23:02 <fizzie> AnMaster: In any case, if you're really interested, go read chapters 47, 48 and 49 at http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1698.asp
19:23:22 <fizzie> ais523: You might also be interested in the link I just pasted to AnMaster; it's even more VGA stuffery.
19:23:44 <fizzie> (They're a pile of PDFs, unfortunately.)
19:23:47 <AnMaster> hm
19:24:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is quite a bit more than just VGA stuff is it? Some stuff looks a bit more modern.
19:24:59 <fizzie> Yes, it's a collection of articles from a rather long period of time.
19:25:15 <AnMaster> argh scans
19:25:21 <AnMaster> and low quality ones
19:25:35 <fizzie> Yes, well, that's what you get for free. They're perfectly readable anyway.
19:25:37 <AnMaster> I always found such excessively hard to read
19:25:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, only by straining your eyes
19:26:00 <AnMaster> at least number 66, which was the one I looked at first
19:26:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: Why all the underscores?
19:26:29 <alise__> clients________
19:26:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, quite imaginative names...
19:27:12 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't seem to have any problems reading that in Evince. It even lets me copy-paste text out of it (curiously), so you can get a quick-and-dirty text-only copy by pasting into 'fmt' or something.
19:27:22 <AnMaster> using evince too
19:27:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, that looks like OCRed text below the scan
19:27:54 <AnMaster> somehow
19:28:09 <AnMaster> there are quite a few OCR-ish errors in it
19:28:26 <fizzie> Yes, and not everything seems to be selectable; if there's graphics, for example.
19:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Does anyone know about graphics hardware and its requisite software?
19:28:29 <AnMaster> and some text is missing
19:29:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, rather curious that there is OCR hidden below the scan, or perhaps evince has built in OCR?
19:29:12 <bsmntbombdood> hmm
19:29:13 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.silentpcreview.com/article846-page1.html
19:29:14 <AnMaster> which would be even more curious
19:29:16 <bsmntbombdood> i like that cooler
19:29:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I'm wondering. "pdftotext" doesn't print out anything. Maybe evince does in fact do it by itself.
19:29:56 <AnMaster> fizzie, try some other reader, I have okular on my laptop
19:30:24 <fizzie> AnMaster: "Evince adds OCR support", a Digg post from 2008.
19:30:30 <AnMaster> heh
19:30:32 <fizzie> AnMaster: Funny that I hadn't noticed until now.
19:30:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, also doesn't OCR generally needs training?
19:31:17 <fizzie> Well, it would *help*, but you can get reasonable output for reasonable source material without.
19:31:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, strangely enough it is more readable in okular...
19:31:40 <AnMaster> oh wait, higher DPI on that monitor
19:31:51 <AnMaster> presumably evince would be nice better on there too
19:31:53 <fizzie> "Evince allows the selection of text in PDF files and allows users to highlight and copy text from documents made from scanned images, if the PDF includes OCR data", says Wikipedia's Evince article. I have no idea what "PDF includes OCR data" means there.
19:32:21 <AnMaster> no. evince is not as readable as okular there
19:32:48 <fizzie> Ah, okay. It seems that there's some sort of pre-done OCR metadata block in the PDF, and evince's just showing it, in fact.
19:32:49 <AnMaster> hm, okular seems to anti-alias when you are zoomed != 100 %
19:33:02 <fizzie> pdftotext just isn't clever enough to read it.
19:33:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
19:33:22 <AnMaster> right
19:38:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:38:49 <alise__> http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.madore.org%2F~david%2Flit%2Felfe.html&sl=auto&tl=en <== From the person who brought you Unlambda! (You might not want to click this.)
19:39:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
19:39:47 * oerjan thinks he noticed some gay literature on madore's site before, is that it?
19:39:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, make me unsee it!
19:39:49 <Sgeo> "Warning: The following contains explicit descriptions of sexual acts between consenting adult males, if such a description is likely to shock you, or if you are underage, you are invited to stop by your reading ."
19:39:58 <alise__> oerjan: yes
19:40:21 <alise__> Amusingly, if you don't know French, every sentence of the untranslated version sounds elegant and innocent.
19:40:25 <alise__> That's just the power of French.
19:40:37 <oerjan> heh
19:41:11 <zzo38> If you use the Adobe reader and you print a encrypted PDF to a non-encrypted PDF, this does *not* allow you do copy the text!! (You will get a graphical-only PDF if you do this.)
19:42:02 <Sgeo> How TF does "encrypted PDF" make sense? Does only the official PDF viewer have the private key or something?
19:42:25 <alise__> No.
19:42:28 <alise__> It's just a flag, protected.
19:42:33 <alise__> You're "meant" to respect it.
19:42:41 <alise__> Like a certain TCP flag...
19:42:49 <Sgeo> Hm?
19:43:00 <alise__> It's against the PDF licensespecthingetc to not respect it and disallow copying, iirc.
19:43:11 <alise__> So xpdf follows the rules but one define away and it's freed up.
19:43:24 <Sgeo> What TCP flag acts like that?
19:43:34 <alise__> The "evil bit" :-)
19:43:36 <Sgeo> Oh, the joke "EVIL" flag?
19:43:39 <Sgeo> Ah
19:43:55 * Sgeo thought you meant a serious flag, for some reason
19:44:36 <zzo38> It can be changed using defines (which I think is a good way to do things like this (even UOPs on DVDs)), but I would generally prefer this to be a command-line parameter instead
19:44:55 <fizzie> Re "encrypted PDF and printing to image"; gaa, it's the dreaded analog hole again!
19:45:15 <fizzie> (Even if it's a digital image.)
19:45:20 <alise__> fizzie: *a-hole
19:45:25 <alise__> They're trying to plug it.
19:45:32 <alise__> zzo38: I'd prefer just not writing any such code in the first place!
19:45:52 <alise__> Fuck the licensing and the specs if they demand such things; let them come to me directly and say "please obey this meaningless bit in the header", and I'll be happy to reply "no".
19:45:57 <alise__> Ridiculous.
19:46:13 <fizzie> For xpdf, I think there was at least one distribution that patched it to in fact make a command-line parameter of it.
19:46:15 <zzo38> But such things are part of the specification, I think the user should be allowed to tell the program whether or not to obey those settings by using a command-line parameter.
19:46:40 <Sgeo> Why is this reminding me of GOd
19:46:43 <Sgeo> God's Debris
19:47:07 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know why
19:47:22 <fizzie> The Debian/Ubuntu patch I guess just #ifdef's those bits around ENFORCE_PERMISSIONS, and doesn't define that symbol.
19:47:27 <alise__> zzo38: If you want to respect the protection, do how it's always been done: don't violate the damn copyright.
19:47:47 <alise__> If you don't care about such nonsenses as owning bits, copy as much as you like.
19:47:50 <alise__> Simple.
19:49:13 <zzo38> alise__: I absolutely agree with that, if you want to respect copyright, do it the old fashioned manual way. However, in cases like PDF and DVD, these are part of the specification. So, the program should do that or not depending on the command-line parameter (or configuration file).
19:49:17 <Sgeo> Dear downloads: Please download
19:49:28 <alise__> zzo38: A lot of parts of specifications are completely stupid, though.
19:49:50 <alise__> Like, say the C standard has a part in it that, while well-intentioned, completely reverses the meaning of most of the language.
19:49:51 <zzo38> alise__: I do agree with that. Many things are stupid. And that's not the only stupid part of the PDF specification!
19:49:55 <alise__> You'd obviously not implement it.
19:50:08 <alise__> Now, the PDF standard has a part in it that, while bad-intentioned, completely reverses sanity. :-)
19:50:40 <alise__> Mumble mumble the postscript subset is alright but then they made it shit mumble mumble
19:51:14 <fizzie> It's a bit strange that Ubuntu xpdf patches include fixes for five CVE-series vulnerabilities from 2007; shouldn't those have appeared at upstream by now? Of course I haven't looked at these in detail, so maybe it's a some sort of a non-issue.
19:51:33 <alise__> Incidentally, xpdf has the most hideous interface in a long time.
19:51:38 <alise__> Of an X11 program.
19:51:53 <fizzie> Yes, I sort of accidentally started to use Evince instead on this new Ubuntu installation.
19:52:14 <Sgeo> Does Evince respect the unenforcable bit?
19:52:27 <zzo38> Perhaps, but these things are needed to conform with the standards, even if it is very stupid (which is certainly is, which is why I suggest a command-line option to change it). Even for things like C standard, it should be implemented as long as it does not conflict with the rest of the specification (but you can have options such as #pragma and so on to correct it)
19:52:32 <fizzie> I don't have a protected PDF to check with right now.
19:52:45 <zzo38> What is the unenforcable bit?
19:53:00 <alise__> zzo38: the don't-copy bit
19:53:15 <alise__> hmm... let's golf a program that flips the don't-copy bit to show just how ridiculous it is :-)
19:53:17 <zzo38> Do you mean don't copy the PDF file as a whole?
19:53:28 <alise__> If we can get it small enough, we can argue that interpreting it as a bit-flipper is utterly arbitrary
19:53:33 <alise__> as there are far too many meanings for such a short string
19:53:37 <alise__> thus it's perfectly legal Q.E.D. :P
19:53:42 <zzo38> alise__: Exactly!
19:53:58 <alise__> yes, yes, Colour of your Bits etc., but does that really apply if your bits are (*494#$1*(7
19:54:59 * Sgeo loves the Worms theme music
19:55:01 <Sgeo> <3
19:56:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm... Could you write (realistically) functions f and g such that f(n) gives a valid BF program for all naturals, and g(<valid BF program>) gives a number that you can reconstruct n with it? Preferably in a sensible amount of time/
19:57:27 <alise__> Yes.
19:57:31 <Gregor> Sure, no problem.
19:57:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Spoon?
19:57:35 <alise__> Consider a BF program as a base-8 number; one for each commands.
19:57:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
19:57:44 <alise__> This base-8 number is a natural.
19:57:46 <alise__> Q.E.D.
19:57:51 <Phantom_Hoover> How extremely obvious.
19:57:52 <alise__> *each command
19:57:57 <Gregor> Well, that's not quite QED, but the rest is horribly obvious :P
19:57:59 <alise__> Quite.
19:58:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, no.
19:58:14 <alise__> Gregor: Well, you know how much real-world mathematicians leave out of their proofs...
19:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I said *valid* BF program.
19:58:31 <zzo38> You need balanced []
19:58:31 <alise__> Valid as in matching brackets?
19:58:36 <Gregor> Ahhhh
19:58:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, basically.
19:58:44 <alise__> Fine; translate it to that language that uses GOTOs instead.
19:58:49 <alise__> Do the same process to that.
19:59:00 <alise__> Or do something ridiculous, like:
19:59:00 <Gregor> alise__: I don't think the translation from BF to that language is 1-1
19:59:17 <alise__> binary:
19:59:23 <alise__> "0n" -- n is the command
19:59:27 <alise__> "1n1n1n" -- [nnn]
19:59:31 <alise__> i.e. 1 continues the loop
19:59:33 <alise__> dunno about nesting
19:59:37 <alise__> you could figure it out anyway
19:59:39 <alise__> "obviously possible"
19:59:44 <Gregor> By definition there is such a translation :P
19:59:46 <Gregor> QED :P
20:00:18 <alise__> it exists because obviously you can do it because it's a data structure and you can goedel-numerise them
20:00:19 <alise__> in fact
20:00:20 <alise__> you know what
20:00:24 <alise__> just generate all valid bf programs
20:00:24 <alise__> -
20:00:25 <alise__> +
20:00:25 <alise__> <
20:00:26 <alise__> >
20:00:26 <alise__> ,
20:00:27 <alise__> .
20:00:30 <alise__> []
20:00:35 <alise__> [-]
20:00:36 <alise__> [+]
20:00:38 <alise__> [...]
20:00:40 <alise__> []-
20:00:43 <alise__> []+
20:00:44 <alise__> ...
20:00:46 <alise__> <[+<]+>
20:00:48 <alise__> etc
20:00:58 <alise__> map a BF program P to its index n in the list.
20:01:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I thought of that, but I quickly dismissed it as utterly impractical.
20:01:10 <alise__> admittedly this isn't countably infinite so that's a .. problem
20:01:12 <zzo38> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ZeroBF
20:01:21 <alise__> but, anyway, it exists and it's trivial so stop thinking about it.
20:02:01 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but ideally I would like to fashion these into a usable program.
20:02:25 <fizzie> The Ubuntu version of Evince I have here seems to lose PDF security properties somewhere. "pdfinfo" says "Encrypted: yes (print:yes copy:no change:no addNotes:no)", but Evince says "Security: No", and lets me copy whatever I want.
20:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Based on Safalra's method for calculating the number of bits needed to store a Brainfuck program of length n.
20:03:27 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's also trivial to just go with a function that considers the number a base-8 encoding of Brainfuck *and* is undefined for invalid Brainfuck programs. :P
20:03:34 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ok how about this
20:03:39 <alise__> 0^n 1 0^m
20:03:40 <alise__> means
20:03:44 <alise__> ins[n] ins[m]
20:03:47 <alise__> where ins is the array of instructions
20:03:49 <pikhq> Oh, wait. "All naturals".
20:03:50 <alise__> and ^ is repetition
20:03:51 <alise__> so, unary, right
20:03:52 <alise__> now
20:03:56 <pikhq> Darn it, that makes it a pain.
20:03:58 <alise__> we do a loop by saying 2+n for all n in it
20:03:59 <alise__> so
20:04:19 <pikhq> Quite easy for a countably infinite subset of the naturals.
20:04:23 <alise__> 01210 = 01230 = -[-]
20:04:31 <alise__> this is in base infinity o_O
20:04:33 <alise__> but
20:04:38 <alise__> it's just a set of naturals
20:04:42 <alise__> a finite set at that
20:04:46 <alise__> which is isomorphic to a natural
20:04:49 <alise__> so do that
20:04:50 <alise__> tada
20:05:47 <alise__> Also, I'm designing my own perfect document authoring system; am I a madman for trying to displace Knuth's righteous place?
20:05:58 <pikhq> alise__: Probably.
20:06:03 <alise__> kaykay
20:06:30 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: I don't really get the thing about 2+n.
20:06:38 <pikhq> At the very least, though, you must be sure to do everything right that TeX does right.
20:06:44 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ok, let's say
20:06:47 <alise__> for all n from 0 to 7
20:06:48 <alise__> we have
20:06:51 <alise__> {a,b,c,d,...}
20:06:53 <alise__> we correspond each to its number
20:06:58 <alise__> to its instruction i mean
20:07:01 <alise__> and there's your program, right?
20:07:02 <pikhq> (you are damned well rendering the text beautifully.)
20:07:03 <alise__> so
20:07:07 <alise__> if we see [...]
20:07:11 <alise__> we figure out the program-list for ...
20:07:15 <alise__> then we increase all elements in it by 8
20:07:30 <alise__> this way, if we know it's >7, it's in a loop
20:07:43 <alise__> >15, two loops
20:07:44 <alise__> etc
20:07:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
20:07:52 <alise__> then we've flattened it into a flat set of naturals
20:08:02 <alise__> we have a correspondence N^n -> N for all n
20:08:18 <alise__> so substitute the length of the list for n (try recursive application of an N^2 -> N perhaps)
20:08:21 <alise__> and fire away
20:08:27 <alise__> tada
20:08:57 <alise__> pikhq: Actually, that's why I'm calling it a document-authoring system: It's more general than TeX.
20:09:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Sooo...
20:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> ,[.,] would be...
20:09:15 <alise__> You write in terms of more semantic -- but not fully semantic -- commands, then renderers and style files turn this into something you actually look at.
20:09:28 <alise__> (Though actual custom formatting won't be frowned upon where needed. We're not nazis like the TeXmacs guys.)
20:10:04 <Phantom_Hoover> 5(12)(13)?
20:10:21 <alise__> A title block would probably look like this:
20:10:22 <alise__> \_title := { Hello, world! }
20:10:23 <alise__> \_author := { Elliott Hird }
20:10:23 <alise__> \_date := { \today }
20:10:23 <alise__> \docinfo
20:10:25 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ,[.,] would be
20:10:26 <alise__> let's assume
20:10:33 <alise__> - + < > , .
20:10:34 <alise__> for our instructions
20:10:37 <alise__> so it's actually not 8
20:10:41 <alise__> since we have 6
20:10:42 <alise__> so we have
20:10:51 <alise__> {4, {5,4}}
20:10:54 <alise__> so we need to flatten 5,4
20:11:05 <alise__> 5 is our biggest number, so we want to add 6 to each one
20:11:11 <alise__> {4, 6+5, 6+4}
20:11:14 <alise__> {4, 11, 10}
20:11:21 <alise__> consider ,[[.,]]
20:11:21 <Phantom_Hoover> And then add?
20:11:22 <alise__> then it'd be
20:11:26 <alise__> no
20:11:30 <alise__> use N^n -> N bijection
20:11:32 <alise__> there are many
20:11:36 <alise__> consider ,[[.,]]
20:11:39 <pikhq> alise__: So, actually trying to improve on TeX's design. :)
20:11:43 <alise__> {4, {{5,4}}}
20:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> What is N^n -> N bijection.
20:11:51 <alise__> {4, {6+5,6+4}}
20:11:54 <alise__> {4, {11, 10}}
20:11:58 <alise__> {4, 6+11, 6+10}
20:12:03 <alise__> {4, 17, 16}
20:12:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, I get that bit.
20:12:09 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: lern u sum mathematics, please.
20:12:14 <alise__> N^n -- n-length tuple of naturals
20:12:16 <alise__> N -- natural
20:12:19 <alise__> bijection -- 1:1 mapping
20:12:25 <alise__> we have a mapping from two naturals to one natural
20:12:34 <alise__> so we have a mapping from n naturals to one natural, Q.E.D.
20:12:35 <alise__> pikhq: Yars.
20:12:55 <alise__> pikhq: Then style files would include things like
20:13:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I object to the "lern u sum mathematics" bit.
20:13:16 <alise__> \section := { \margin[-.5em] \size[1.5em] \bold }
20:13:17 <alise__> then
20:13:21 <alise__> { \section Poop lol }
20:13:27 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's pretty simple stuff...
20:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> But you don't cover it in school!
20:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I have an excuse!
20:14:06 <alise__> Nothing of importance is covered in school.
20:14:12 -!- hiato has joined.
20:14:27 <alise__> brb
20:16:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: Thanks for that.
20:20:02 <zzo38> How do you make a picture of Oscar Wilde in 16 colors with less than 32x32?
20:22:03 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:24:27 <fizzie> Make a black box, and declare black boxes to be representative of Oscar Wilde.
20:26:19 <zzo38> OK but that isn't even close to what is intended. The background color is 7 (gray). Also, QBASIC vector drawings of the baker, the spider, the king, each with background color 0 and the size not larger than approx. 210x240 each
20:26:19 <fizzie> Incidentally, how many pixels do you need before something constitutes a "picture", and is therefore equivalent to (more than) a thousand words of text?
20:26:30 * Sgeo just discovered /r/saddestof
20:26:36 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to be sick
20:26:40 <zzo38> fizzie: OK, ah. That's the "picture"?
20:27:01 <fizzie> Well, a picture's worth a thousand words, or so they say.
20:27:05 <zzo38> They say a picture is worth a thousand words but clearly it depends on the picture and on the words
20:29:07 <zzo38> I know how to make suits using QBASIC vector drawing (including some additional suits, to make 9 suits in total), but I'm not that good at drawing in general, however
20:32:38 <fizzie> Generally, even for restricted-resolution restricted-color stuff, I've usually just scaled images with graphics tools. With quite horrible results. The rfk86 font is the only exception I can think of where I did manual pixel-pushing.
20:32:48 <fizzie> Pixel-graphics artistry is a legitimate field, though.
20:33:09 <zzo38> http://pastebin.com/38X0q6NF See line 982 and line 1496
20:33:58 <zzo38> (Although line 982 could be changed to pixels stored in DATA statements instead, since it is small enough)
20:34:03 <alise__> back
20:35:11 <alise__> zzo38, I respect you. you're crazy
20:35:53 <fizzie> Well. uh... if you want something *completely* horrible, open an existing photograph in Inkscape or some-such, use the vectorization tools, then do path-simplify a few dozen times, then convert all those beziers into regular lines and convert that into the qbasic draw syntax. You'll end up with something that resembles a modernist art piece, and it's a safe bet no-one will recognize the person in it.
20:36:06 <alise__> I wonder whether := really deserves to be a primitive, rather than just a command.
20:37:09 <zzo38> fizzie: But I don't want something completely horrible
20:37:27 <alise__> Wilde is not exactly easy to portray in tiny.
20:37:35 <fizzie> I can't help you there, then, I'm afraid. I only do horrible.
20:37:54 <zzo38> Are you good to draw anything such as baker, spider, king, in 210x240 approx size?
20:38:34 <zzo38> alise__: If Oscar Wilde won't fit perhaps I can put something else on that card, that will fit.
20:39:04 <alise__> I'm sure you can do Wilde.
20:39:16 <alise__> Face, long hair, maybe a tiny hand-segment on chin; done.
20:39:27 <zzo38> OK, but I'm not so good at drawing like that.
20:40:48 <alise__> Nor I, I'm afraid -- but I can picture what it'd look like in my head...
20:41:10 <zzo38> Ah. OK. Who can do?
20:41:20 <alise__> Dunno :/
20:41:26 <alise__> pikhq: Huh. I think my architecture means that it could be used to... directly synthesize well-typesetted mathematics into plain HTML and CSS.
20:41:42 <pikhq> Huh.
20:42:16 <alise__> pikhq: Because things like basic positioning, layout commands etc. would be output-agnostic (obviously, or it'd be very unportable).
20:42:33 <alise__> Of course, the output HTML would be large and crazy and anyone who's ever written a semantic web page or, uh, been blind would maul me...
20:42:34 <alise__> But who cares?
20:42:35 <AnMaster> <zzo38> But such things are part of the specification, I think the user should be allowed to tell the program whether or not to obey those settings by using a command-line parameter. <- kpdf (for KDE 3.5.x at least) had a an option in the preference dialog for it. IIRC okular (KDE 4.x) has that too
20:42:54 <AnMaster> evince I don't know, after all it has no settings dialog at all it seems
20:43:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: My copy forgets the security settings somewhere, possibly already in libpoppler.
20:43:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: I have no idea how it is with the official sources.
20:44:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, which distro?
20:44:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: Ubuntu.
20:44:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't have any such pdf to test with
20:44:43 <AnMaster> but I have both ubuntu and arch linux handy
20:44:51 <AnMaster> the latter tends to avoid non-upstream patches
20:45:01 <AnMaster> while ubuntu tends to be rather heavy on that
20:45:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: According to pdfinfo, http://www.adobe.com/products/pdfjobready/pdfs/pdftraag.pdf has some security settings: (print:yes copy:no change:no addNotes:no). I could copy-paste text out of it, at least, which I think should be disallowed by "copy:no".
20:46:10 <AnMaster> btw, isn't dragging tabs supposed to work in firefox to rearrange them?
20:46:20 <fizzie> I don't think I have handy anything that *does* respect those things so that I could make sure the document actually has them.
20:46:21 <AnMaster> for some reason I it suddenly doesn't work
20:46:53 <alise__> stock xpdf will do
20:47:13 <zzo38> AnMaster: Those are the kind of things I was suggesting. For programs without configuration dialog boxes, they could be stored in configuration files and/or command-line parameters. (MegaZeux uses config file, which can be overridden by command-line parameters, it also has a configuration dialog but the dialog box is only for the current session, if you want it permanent you need to use the config file)
20:47:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, copy works with evince under arch linux at least
20:47:27 <fizzie> But I don't have stock xpdf, just the Ubuntu-patched "evil xpdf" (tm).
20:47:40 <AnMaster> I don't have xpdf at all handy
20:48:00 <AnMaster> well it is in arch, but too lazy to install that
20:48:02 <alise__> \docinfo := {
20:48:02 <alise__> { \size[2.5em] \bold \title } \break
20:48:02 <alise__> { \italic \author, \date } \break
20:48:02 <alise__> }
20:48:03 <alise__> (from some imaginary doc style)
20:48:36 <fizzie> There's a real Adobe Reader on the OS X, though; I had an occasion I needed to show some slides that were horrible with Preview.app, and I have no idea what would be a sensible tool for PDF-based slides on OS X.
20:49:10 <alise__> Preview is my favourite PDF reader by far.
20:49:14 <alise__> It just handles everything. Perfectly.
20:49:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah...
20:49:30 <zzo38> At my school we just printed out the PDF slides and viewed them on the wall using the projector
20:49:37 <fizzie> It didn't handle sensible antialiasing-filtering for fullscreen viewing of the raster images in those particular slides.
20:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I miss built-in browser PDFs.
20:49:50 <alise__> Miss? How?
20:49:56 <alise__> Anyway, Preview does that too. Also perfectly.
20:50:02 <alise__> Probably the best bit of OS X, actually...
20:50:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Because I switched from OSX to Ubuntu.
20:50:29 <pineapple> alise__: ey's a linux user? i don't know of a linux pdf viewer that can display in a firefox tab
20:51:00 <alise__> pineapple: you can do it with mozplugin - but it's Ugly with a capital Y
20:51:05 <alise__> I think adobe reader does it natively
20:51:10 <alise__> I use Linux, yes, though I'm not particularly enamoured with it.
20:51:23 <pineapple> adobe reader does on windows at least
20:51:38 <alise__> If Apple hadn't done the poopy things they've done recently I'd probably go OS X.
20:51:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Poopy things?
20:52:15 <alise__> The whole iPhone SDK license debacle.
20:52:19 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> I miss built-in browser PDFs. <-- konqueror does it
20:52:26 <alise__> And the "assembling a patent portfolio to go after Theora" one.
20:52:31 <alise__> Both signs of impending Dark Lordism.
20:52:37 <alise__> The latter a sign of pure malice.
20:52:41 <alise__> Makes me wary.
20:52:53 <fizzie> alise__: What I mind with Preview and Firefox is that if I click a PDF link, it opens in a separate Preview window (which I don't mind) but it also drops (like, a turd) the PDF file directly on the desktop, which annoys me to no end; I more often just want to take a peek, not save something. I'm sure this is configurable somehow, though.
20:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> And the fact that their users are one of the most smug sets of people in the world.
20:52:59 <Sgeo> What's this about Apple and Theora?
20:53:15 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: I know, I know; but there's always public perceptions, you know, and I just tried to do what I can to fight that.
20:53:22 <alise__> It /was/ irritating getting mocked merely for using an OS.
20:53:28 <Gregor> Apple: "Theora probably violates patents, and we're going to sue because we're douchetards."
20:53:29 <alise__> It's fucking Unix, man. It's actually certified Unix.
20:53:39 <alise__> Gregor: Yes. Exactly.
20:53:45 <pineapple> alise__: it's *nix that hides its routes
20:53:51 <pineapple> and terminal.app sucks
20:53:57 <alise__> pineapple: *roots; and not really. And hey I like Terminal.
20:53:59 <pineapple> roots*
20:54:05 <pineapple> yeah, i meant that
20:54:21 <alise__> I don't really want to use a non-OS X operating system right now; but I don't think I can support Apple at all right now.
20:54:22 <Gregor> But does it hide its routes, too? :P
20:54:35 <alise__> Which puts me in a horrible position, because Ubuntu - well, it's lovely but it sucks.
20:54:41 <Sgeo> OS 7 is non OS X
20:54:41 <alise__> BSDs - ehhh maybe
20:54:45 <alise__> And what else?
20:54:48 <pineapple> alise__: try another linux?
20:54:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Contradiction much?
20:54:53 <alise__> pineapple: I've tried many
20:54:59 <pineapple> LFS?
20:55:04 <alise__> Debian - just like Ubuntu, but with less polish!
20:55:09 <alise__> (Although less poopiness too)
20:55:09 <Gregor> lawl
20:55:16 <alise__> Arch - Just like Gentoo, except slower!
20:55:20 <Gregor> Try Debian - just like Ubuntu, but with less douchebaggery (also, more douchebaggery)
20:55:25 <alise__> Gentoo - Just like a life, except not! At all!
20:55:35 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the problem with Ubuntu?
20:55:42 <pineapple> alise__: you could always try a BSD
20:55:48 <AnMaster> <Gregor> But does it hide its routes, too? :P <-- does the route(8) command exist?
20:55:56 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: It's just sort of shit in all these tiny ways.
20:56:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm curious.
20:56:14 <alise__> Typography is still abhorrent. Interface still doesn't feel polished. Things crash and sometimes you're not sure why. Things are inconsistent and sometimes you're not sure why.
20:56:26 <coppro> yeah, Ubuntu definitely has some rough edges
20:56:29 <Gregor> My problems with all distros are solely philosophy-based.
20:56:33 <alise__> Everything just seems like it's built out of cardboard; OS X, for all its failings, at least feels like those failings are part of a solid steel structure.
20:56:38 <pineapple> i do like that ubuntu doesn't hide the command line from you, though
20:56:48 <alise__> Uh, it does.
20:56:52 <alise__> At least as much as OS X.
20:57:01 <alise__> Both have the terminal in clear sight, but never tell you to use it. Ever.
20:57:13 * Gregor huggles his sidux and avoids distro wars X-P
20:57:17 <pineapple> the general support from #ubuntu involves "type this command in"
20:57:18 <coppro> OS X' terminal is in plain sight now?
20:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> There being two ways to do something doesn't make it bad.
20:57:38 <Sgeo> alise__, put Android on your computer?
20:57:39 <Sgeo> :D
20:57:43 <pineapple> haha
20:57:43 <coppro> last I recall I invariably had to dig it out manually
20:57:45 * Sgeo wonders how horribly that would work
20:57:46 <alise__> coppro: /Applications/Utilities
20:57:52 <alise__> Which is where tons of utility programs are.
20:57:56 <zzo38> That is why I should write my own distribution instead
20:58:02 <pineapple> zzo38: LFS
20:58:04 <alise__> Like, you know, the Activity Monitor; or the full-featured screen grabber; or the network utility; or...
20:58:06 <alise__> It's not "dragging it out".
20:58:12 <alise__> It's going to where the applications are, and going under utilities.
20:58:22 <alise__> Ubuntu: Applications -> Accessories.
20:58:24 <alise__> Notice a similarity?
20:58:37 <alise__> OS X just uses a Dock which means spaces on it are more precious than Ubuntu's larger menu.
20:58:45 <Phantom_Hoover> You can't just execute files inn OS X.
20:58:46 <alise__> And obviously not many people actually use the Terminal, on OS X /or/ Ubuntu.
20:58:50 <alise__> Yes you can.
20:58:54 <Phantom_Hoover> You need to use Terminal.
20:58:55 <alise__> You double click them, and they open in the Terminal.
20:58:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly!
20:59:02 <alise__> Uh, what?
20:59:07 <alise__> Of course command-line programs open in the terminal.
20:59:09 <pineapple> alise__: invariably, though, i would only use that menu exactly once for a terminal emulator... to create a shortcut to it in a faster to access place
20:59:11 <alise__> They do on Ubuntu too...
20:59:21 <Phantom_Hoover> No they don't.
20:59:21 <zzo38> pineapple: Yes, based from Linux From Scratch, but then I can make a few differences (maybe a lot of differences) and call that a Linux distribution
20:59:31 <alise__> Well clearly you're insane as they very much do.
20:59:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Very possibly...
20:59:44 <alise__> And in any way it's a completely insane complaint as almost all raw binaries on OS X are command-line utilities.
20:59:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Phantom_Hoover).
20:59:48 <alise__> Bye.
20:59:51 <pikhq> zzo38: Yup. That's the raison d'etre of LFS.
21:00:05 <alise__> LFS is for dummies real men make their own guide from scratch.
21:00:08 <pineapple> you know... as much as people here slag off ubuntu, i don't think that i would've gotten into linux as much as i have done were it to not have existed
21:00:17 <alise__> ubuntu is all right
21:00:21 <alise__> i'm not saying other distros are better
21:00:22 <alise__> hell no
21:00:29 <pikhq> alise__: Command-line utilities or X11 stuff. And you're probably crazy for using an X11 program.
21:00:41 <alise__> it's just that... like, if windows had decent programming POSIX base underneath
21:00:49 <pineapple> you'd use it
21:00:52 <alise__> I wouldn't see any particular reason to rate Ubuntu more than, say, 3 points higher than Windows
21:01:02 <alise__> pineapple: no, I probably wouldn't
21:01:07 <pineapple> :-P
21:01:09 <alise__> but that's what I'm saying, Ubuntu isn't astounding and it really needs to be
21:01:20 <alise__> because all the little improvements just aren't helping, it really needs a solid foundation
21:01:26 <pineapple> not even 10.04? (i've not tried it yet)
21:01:43 <alise__> pineapple: I haven't either, but the new looks and stupid social IM stuff?
21:01:53 <alise__> New bootup thing, sure, who cares...
21:01:57 <zzo38> I use Ubuntu at Free Geek, because that is what computers they have there. I use the command-line stuff mostly. But there are some things I don't like about Ubuntu but that's OK because I can write my own later, as well
21:02:04 <alise__> The new look is more polished but still rough at t he edges.
21:02:17 <alise__> They really do need to sort Linux typography the fuck out though.
21:02:22 <alise__> It's getting ridiculous.
21:02:33 <alise__> You're already blatantly violating Apple's patent, so violate it as well as they do.
21:02:34 <pikhq> Yeah, it's quite annoying when it fails.
21:02:38 <AnMaster> <pineapple> you know... as much as people here slag off ubuntu, i don't think that i would've gotten into linux as much as i have done were it to not have existed <-- ah, back when I began ubuntu didn't exist. It was mostly red hat and slackware back then, and debian I guess too.
21:02:42 <pikhq> Because when it fails it fails *hard*.
21:02:53 <pikhq> alise__: Ubuntu licenses the patent, IIRC.
21:03:02 <alise__> pikhq: heh moneybags
21:03:07 <pikhq> Yup.
21:03:15 <alise__> Isn't it ELER canon that Shuttleworth's penis ejaculates money?
21:03:23 <pikhq> I, personally, just blatantly violate the patent.
21:03:27 <alise__> Speaking of which, I bet there hasn't been an update. Crazy odds, I know.
21:03:34 <alise__> Let's see, I'm in so much anticipation
21:03:42 <alise__> I AM A GENIUS
21:03:44 <pikhq> (mmm, Gentoo lets you blatantly violate the patent if you take on all responsibility for doing such...)
21:03:47 <zzo38> If it were my job there would be no patents, I would make the law so that there is no such things as patents
21:03:57 <alise__> Or copyright
21:04:23 <AnMaster> <pikhq> (mmm, Gentoo lets you blatantly violate the patent if you take on all responsibility for doing such...) <-- yes and official mozilla branding is also an option, :D
21:04:41 <zzo38> Therefore, I would make the "patents and trademarks office" to be changed to the "trademarks office"
21:04:47 <alise__> yeah so you can fap to the amazing firefox
21:04:49 <zzo38> Trademarks are good thing.
21:04:50 <AnMaster> iirc it showed a message like "beware, you may not redistribute this binary" or such
21:04:55 <alise__> that's totally the main good thing about gentoo :D :D :D
21:04:56 <AnMaster> when you turned on official branding
21:04:59 <alise__> /rolleyes
21:05:12 <coppro> which patent is this again?
21:05:13 <AnMaster> that is, in the build output
21:05:19 <AnMaster> well hidden if you didn't read it
21:05:26 <alise__> coppro: Apple's patent on some sort of another subpixel rendering thing
21:05:33 <coppro> alise__: Oh.
21:05:41 <alise__> Even though Ubuntu enables the patent-infringing operation (apparently under license), the result still looks like shit.
21:05:47 <alise__> Of course, it's even worse without.
21:05:59 <coppro> I use KDE and it generally looks good
21:06:10 <AnMaster> coppro, KDE 3 or KDE 4?
21:06:18 <AnMaster> coppro, I miss the days of KDE 3 a lot
21:06:19 <coppro> 4; the Kubuntu release
21:06:20 <alise__> coppro: You're blessed with a very-high-dpi laptop screen.
21:06:23 <alise__> Those tend to smooth out anything.
21:06:31 <alise__> Also, ignore AnMaster; he hates KDE 4 and <3s KDE 3.
21:06:33 <alise__> He's also a madman.
21:06:35 <coppro> alise__: ah, true
21:06:44 <pikhq> What really gets me is how much of a pain it is just to get decent fonts.
21:07:00 <coppro> in what sense?
21:07:00 <alise__> No-subpixel + slight hinting looks alright... I guess... but the cruel thing is how much better OS X is
21:07:13 <alise__> I mean, OS X typography approaches the quality of print
21:07:15 <fizzie> Re patents, and since the theme of phones and their OSes is a topic sometimes here too; Microsoft's currently saying that Android infringes on their patents, and has so far managed to extract protection money, uh, sorry, I mean license royalties from at least HTC.
21:07:20 <alise__> given a high enough dpi display...
21:07:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, agreed. At least on arch and on ubuntu the fonts tend to render very well, assuming you do not use subpixel stuff
21:07:25 <pikhq> I've just *barely* gotten good fonts of English and Japanese. A single bit of Chinese that isn't in the Japanese font, and it looks *awful*.
21:07:44 <AnMaster> oh and apple fonts tend to look like shit on linux, no idea why
21:07:45 <alise__> I like how they're all unantialiased.
21:07:49 <AnMaster> the open fonts look nice
21:07:54 <alise__> In 2010 (ok, 2009 when this version was released)
21:07:57 <AnMaster> dejavu and so on
21:08:01 <alise__> Thanks for shipping that, Apple.
21:08:02 <alise__> AnMaster: because you use them at full hinting
21:08:03 <alise__> which is stupid.
21:08:12 <alise__> because os x fonts don't have hinting info
21:08:14 <pineapple> alise__: KDE 4.0 was a tech demo
21:08:15 <alise__> and weren't designed to be hinted
21:08:23 <alise__> pineapple: yes but 4.whateveritis is better than 3 by far
21:08:25 <alise__> 3 sucked, frankly.
21:08:37 <coppro> 4.whateveritis is very awesome
21:08:39 <pikhq> 3 was 2 ported to Qt 3.
21:08:41 <Sgeo> WTF
21:08:41 <pikhq> And it shows.
21:08:50 <Sgeo> My computer thinks it's not plugged in
21:08:55 <zzo38> How do you make a protest to protest against having patents, so that you can abolish patent law, in Canada?
21:08:56 <alise__> Dun dun DUN
21:08:58 <AnMaster> pineapple, KDE 4.1 wasn't very good either, it is finally becomming somewhat okayish with KDE 4.3, but I have gone gnome by now
21:09:05 <alise__> zzo38: I don't think that would help.
21:09:23 <alise__> Looks like we'll get to hear AnMaster's GNOME complaints in the near future!
21:09:23 <coppro> patent law will not get abolished
21:09:28 <AnMaster> at least with the clearlooks theme it is okay
21:09:34 <pineapple> AnMaster: i went with xfce for my arch install; not sure what i'll do when i finally try LFS
21:09:44 <AnMaster> oh and they messed up the icons, so I'm using an older gnome icon theme version nowdays
21:09:52 <AnMaster> because the new theme is just ugly as hell
21:10:03 <AnMaster> unless you use a dark theme overall
21:10:06 <Sgeo> Seriously, WTF is going ojn
21:10:21 <AnMaster> while my theme use very light colours
21:10:46 <alise__> coppro: it should be though
21:10:56 <alise__> ...of course actually doing it would be very very complex
21:11:00 <alise__> with all the reorganisation and loose ends etc
21:11:05 <coppro> that's not the main reason
21:11:05 <alise__> but the aftermath, at least, is a good thing...
21:11:15 <coppro> the main reason is because it wouldn't get past the lobby
21:11:24 <alise__> Well, yes.
21:11:27 <AnMaster> pineapple, LFS is for learning, not for actual use. No package manager (well you can use some semi-working one yourself if you want)
21:11:39 <AnMaster> but you won't get notified about new versions and such
21:11:42 <fizzie> Sgeo: Pure curiosity, but how did it go with your phone acquisitions? I've been sort of following it with one eye.
21:11:47 <coppro> also, I would not support outright abolishing it without replacing it with something else
21:11:49 <AnMaster> so yes, LFS is great, for learning. Done it myself.
21:11:52 <alise__> fizzie: he doesn't like the nexus all that much
21:11:54 <AnMaster> but wouldn't use it for day-to-day use
21:11:55 <alise__> got his hopes too high
21:11:56 <pineapple> AnMaster: i'm cool with that... i _want_ the learning experience
21:11:57 <alise__> coppro: I would.
21:12:09 <alise__> I'll save it for the Democratic Republic of alise (neither democratic, nor a republic).
21:12:12 <AnMaster> pineapple, it is not a system you wish to maintain after the install is done
21:12:16 <AnMaster> that is all I'm saying
21:12:24 <pineapple> and it's not going to be on my main machine (i have arch on that one and like it so far)
21:13:10 <coppro> alise__: that would cause innovation to stagnate
21:13:14 <alise__> I figured a while ago that I hate all existing OSs, and so any major tinkering I do should be directed at creating a new OS; for now, I'll just use whatever works with most stuff out of the box and gives me the least hassle.
21:13:23 <alise__> coppro: I disagree and we've talked about this before and not got anywhere.
21:13:41 <alise__> So let's wait until we're older and therefore hopefully wiser and can get past whatever dead-ends in argumentation we hit before getting into another loop, eh?
21:13:43 <coppro> alise__: The issue in this case would just be perception though
21:13:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: LFS is actually quite usable for day-to-day use *if* you work at it.
21:13:55 <alise__> See, you're already starting to argue.
21:13:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, you mean, if you are an LFS maintainer? ;P
21:14:00 <pikhq> By doing things like "having a package manager".
21:14:04 <alise__> About the nature of the disagreement.
21:14:07 <coppro> yes
21:14:09 <coppro> it's fun!
21:14:13 <coppro> also I'm procrastinating
21:14:17 <pikhq> And "maintaining it".
21:14:17 <Sgeo> I don't think I'm going to return it
21:14:27 <Sgeo> MAYBE I'll sell it on eBay when the Evo comes out, or something
21:14:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, sure, but no one will make available packages with security updates for you, it is up to you to read CVEs and such
21:14:34 <AnMaster> and find what patches to apply
21:14:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes.
21:14:42 <Sgeo> Also, battery going to die, and laptop doesn't want to think it's plugged in
21:14:45 <pikhq> Basically, you become a distro manager.
21:14:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, you need a lot of free time for LFS
21:14:49 <AnMaster> indeed
21:14:54 <pikhq> Which is what you should expect when you make a distro.
21:15:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is only one problem I can see with the N900, and that is it's size. It seems way better than android when it comes to the Linuxishness
21:15:11 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
21:15:23 <fizzie> Sgeo: You must increase the voltage. Of something.
21:15:30 <pikhq> LFS is at its most usable when you use it to produce a distro with a bare minimum of software.
21:15:35 <alise__> The issue with the N900 is that it sucks at everything else apart from Linuxness.
21:15:41 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it's a bit blocky. It's not *big*, though, as far as these things go.
21:15:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm probably
21:15:42 <pikhq> Though, there are quite likely better options than that.
21:15:46 <alise__> But, you know, LOL LINUX MASTURBATE AT LINUX that is the only thing that matters for a smartphone.
21:15:48 <fizzie> alise__: Hey, I like it.
21:15:55 <alise__> fizzie: Yes, but you've used it.
21:15:59 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:16:01 <alise__> fizzie: AnMaster just likes it because it's OMG LINUX.
21:16:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have a non-smartphone that is something like 11x4x1.1 cm
21:16:13 <Gregor> LOL LINUX MASTURBATE AT LINUX is the only thing that matters for most computer technology.
21:16:17 <alise__> AnMaster: Cool story bro
21:16:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not comfortable with a phone that is much larger than that
21:16:22 <Sgeo> Whatever
21:16:33 <AnMaster> which is a bit of a problem if you want a smartphone
21:16:34 <Sgeo> I'll leave my laptop in the kitchen, and Internet from my phone
21:16:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: You may have to wait for a generation or two of miniatiruzizization, then.
21:16:39 <Gregor> AnMaster: Then start using your phone as a computer instead of a sex toy.
21:16:39 <pineapple> i think the one thing that we can all agree about here, is that technology usage is a deeply personal thing, and that it's impossible to cater to everyone
21:16:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, probably
21:16:49 <pikhq> alise__: Dude, I think AnMaster is still ignoring you. :P
21:16:54 <AnMaster> Gregor, haha
21:16:55 <alise__> Of course he is.
21:17:01 <alise__> Which means I can taunt him as much as I want behind his back.
21:17:09 <pikhq> Fair enough.
21:17:10 <alise__> And he won't even say something whiny in response; it's great!
21:17:11 <AnMaster> alise__, you think so?
21:17:12 <AnMaster> nah
21:17:26 <alise__> I do believe you just logread.
21:17:34 <AnMaster> nop, I removed the ignore yesterday
21:17:36 <alise__> Or, you forgot to update your ignore to handle the massive challenge of TWO UNDERSCORES.
21:17:43 <Gregor> $ du -h /home/gregor/js/wk/js/WebKit/WebKitBuild/Debug/lib/libQtWebKit.so.4.5.3
21:17:43 <Gregor> 447M /home/gregor/js/wk/js/WebKit/WebKitBuild/Debug/lib/libQtWebKit.so.4.5.3
21:17:47 <Gregor> laaaaaaawl
21:17:48 <alise__> Oh, you're so kind and generous. That means you're going to talk to me now :<
21:17:49 <pikhq> Hey, look. Actual unignore.
21:17:55 <pikhq> Gregor: Wow that's crazy.
21:17:59 <alise__> Gregor: o_o
21:18:01 <fizzie> pikhq: Hey, look. Actual unicorn.
21:18:03 <AnMaster> alise__, maybe, if I see a point in it
21:18:13 <alise__> AnMaster: Please ignore me again; it was nice...
21:18:15 <AnMaster> Gregor, wtf
21:18:16 <SgeoN1> Surely, even if Linux is all anmaster cares aboit, Android would be good?
21:18:26 <AnMaster> Gregor, -ggdb3?
21:18:38 <pikhq> Gregor: 19M /usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2
21:18:41 <Gregor> I honestly don't know, the build is hidden through like eight layers of stupid scripts
21:18:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is quite WTF too
21:18:49 <Gregor> pikhq: That doesn't have all the debugging crap.
21:18:52 <alise__> SgeoN1: IT'S TOO JAVA LOL
21:18:55 <alise__> & IT DOESN'T RUN GTK
21:18:59 <Gregor> My compiled one is 20MB without debugging.
21:19:02 * SgeoN1 headaches, presumably from the glasses
21:19:05 <pikhq> Gregor: Just a sec while I pull up the split debug file.
21:19:05 <Gregor> So, the debug info is 427MB :P
21:19:08 <alise__> as we all know, gtk is the perfectest for mobile devices
21:19:17 <alise__> So, anyway.
21:19:19 <pikhq> 413M /usr/lib/debug/usr/lib64/qt4/libQtWebKit.so.4.6.2.debug
21:19:23 <fizzie> Maemo's going (well, trying to go) Qt too; at least officially.
21:19:25 <pikhq> Yup, that's pretty big.
21:19:30 <Gregor> pikhq: lawlercopters :)
21:19:39 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, I want something I can develop my own apps for without the pain of java involved anywhere. for android I understood you can't do the GUI stuff in native code
21:19:42 <fizzie> And MeeGo's going some sort of freaky clutter-based OpenGL thing.
21:19:50 <pikhq> 40M /usr/src/debug/x11-libs/qt-webkit-4.6.2-r1
21:19:51 * SgeoN1 wonders if an X server can be made to run o. Android
21:20:03 <pikhq> And only 40M for the source code *for* those debugging symbols.
21:20:05 <Gregor> AnMaster: I was thinking it would be interesting to use NestedVM to make an Android backend for gdk.
21:20:23 <alise__> Gregor: You misspelled "horrible".
21:20:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, presumably it is built with -ggdb1 or -ggdb2, while Gregor's build is -ggdb3
21:20:37 <AnMaster> Gregor, gdk?
21:20:38 <SgeoN1> Scala exists.
21:20:51 <Gregor> AnMaster: gdk is the graphics layer for gtk.
21:20:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:20:55 <SgeoN1> Clojure exists.
21:21:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh right, sounds familiar now that you mention it
21:21:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, -ggdb3.
21:21:09 <Gregor> SgeoN1: NestedVM exists :P
21:21:30 <fizzie> And anyway, when you use Android, you get Microsoft's lawyers after you. (Okay, so maybe they won't/couldn't quite start going after users instead of phone manufacturers.)
21:21:31 <SgeoN1> Don't know what NestedVM is
21:21:41 <Gregor> NestedVM is a system for compiling C->JVM :P
21:21:44 <pikhq> Note that our debugging info is about the same size. ;)
21:21:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, debug symbols for non-trivial C++ programs tends to be very very large, while for C programs it seems to be just large. Either it is because C++ programs are often larger anyway, or the debug info size grows at different rates
21:22:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: C++ *symbols* are much larger than C symbols.
21:22:10 <pikhq> And there's more of them.
21:22:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, would be interesting to figure out what is going on there. I have seen C++ apps with 40 MB before stripping debug info, and 2 MB after
21:22:31 <AnMaster> and that still kept the symbol table
21:22:32 * SgeoN1 Tylenols. Steo
21:22:35 <AnMaster> just no debug info
21:22:52 * SgeoN1 also verbs nouns
21:22:56 <pikhq> The debugging info also includes things like "line numbers"...
21:22:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, that can't account for it all, can it?
21:23:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, doesn't it for C too?
21:23:16 <pikhq> Have you compared normal C++ code with normal C code?
21:23:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, iirc I have compared 2D SDL-using games in C++ and C, of similar "complexity"/"game-size"
21:24:05 <AnMaster> of course it leaves a bit of fudge factors in
21:24:13 <AnMaster> but shouldn't be completely off
21:25:05 <AnMaster> why that type of app? because I happened to have some such handy when I did that comparison
21:25:05 <pikhq> Also, I'm pretty sure C++ debugging info needs to account for the *types* of those symbols.
21:25:11 <AnMaster> hm probably
21:25:24 <pikhq> And namespaces.
21:25:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, so does C debug info to some degree, after all "print somevariable" in gdb gives you it in some reasonable representation
21:25:51 <AnMaster> such as a struct or whatever
21:26:27 <fizzie> A general C type name is a lot shorter than any instance of Template Hell.
21:26:40 <fizzie> At least based on the screenfuls of errors one gets.
21:26:44 <pikhq> Significantly less.
21:26:49 <pikhq> I'd paste you some fully-expanded commonly used example C++ types from the STL, but *it would flood the channel*.
21:27:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, true
21:28:30 <AnMaster> couldn't you compress it, presumably a type is often used more than once, and you could do stuff like type 1: namespace: stringtable[382]
21:28:31 <AnMaster> or such
21:28:48 <AnMaster> so you didn't need to repeat common strings
21:28:57 <fizzie> Oh, and especially with the name mangling for overloaded methods, which includes the types of arguments in the name.
21:29:00 <pikhq> Also, part of the type for objects is *the object hierarchy*.
21:29:04 <AnMaster> if that is already done and you *still* get that huge debug info then I'm scared
21:29:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, you mean, how they inherit or?
21:29:49 <coppro> AnMaster: You know LaTeX, right?
21:29:49 <fizzie> A generic method "foo" has, at the very least, the namespace and enclosing classes and whatevers.
21:30:02 <pikhq> Yes.
21:30:03 <AnMaster> coppro, to some degree, I tend to use lyx
21:30:20 <coppro> eh, I'll go to #latex then
21:30:32 <pikhq> There's also the "fun" of implicitly created functions.
21:30:38 <AnMaster> coppro, if it is something you don't know how to typeset it is probably at ctan ;P
21:30:42 <coppro> pikhq: The STL is actually a little shorter since the ABI has a shortcut for the std namespace
21:30:48 <pikhq> These, too, get debugging info.
21:31:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, implicitly created functions?
21:31:06 <AnMaster> what do you mean by that
21:31:07 <fizzie> Here's a single symbol name from objdump -T `which lynx`:
21:31:09 <fizzie> _ZZN5boost9re_detail21basic_regex_formatterINS0_19string_out_iteratorISsEENS_13match_resultsIN9__gnu_cxx17__normal_iteratorIPKcSsEESaINS_9sub_matchIS9_EEEEENS_20regex_traits_wrapperINS_12regex_traitsIcNS_16cpp_regex_traitsIcEEEEEEE16handle_perl_verbEbE24LAST_SUBMATCH_RESULT_ALT
21:31:13 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, but the full debugging info for any bit of the STL must be encoded.
21:31:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, lynx is C++?
21:31:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: Sorry, "lyx". :p
21:31:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah...
21:31:48 <coppro> pikhq: ah, yeah
21:31:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Each object possesses a constructor, destructor, and copy operator.
21:32:02 <pikhq> If you don't implement these, the C++ compiler generates them for you.
21:32:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, yet I have seen sensible looking C++ programs with short debug symbols. Mostly they don't use boost or stl
21:32:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm
21:33:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: That might help. But the name mangling has at least the "class name in every symbol" overhead.
21:33:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, couldn't the copy operator just be a few bytes of wrapper for memcpy() (or if it is supposed to alloc it, new and memcpy)
21:33:21 <coppro> yeah, typically those functions don't actually exist
21:33:51 <coppro> the constructor and destructor are usually no-ops and the copy constructor will likely be a memcpy
21:34:19 <pikhq> They still exist.
21:34:30 <coppro> although if it has a member with a user-defined constructor/copy constructor, then they will have to actually exist
21:34:32 <pikhq> And thus have debugging info.
21:34:51 <alise__> bleh computers suck i hate them
21:34:53 <alise__> kill all computers
21:35:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, true, iirc the most "sensible" C++ app (when it comes to mangled symbol names) I have seen was some "freestanding" one.
21:35:10 <fizzie> Here's a symbol from "clang", the second C++ program I could think of: _ZN4llvm21SymbolTableListTraitsINS_11InstructionENS_10BasicBlockEE21transferNodesFromListERNS_12ilist_traitsIS1_EENS_14ilist_iteratorIS1_EES8_
21:35:13 <AnMaster> as in, freestanding the way the C spec defines it
21:35:15 <fizzie> It's quite a bit shorter, though.
21:35:20 <pikhq> operator= is *also* generated.
21:35:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, why on earth
21:35:29 <coppro> pikhq: Quick test shows that I can't find a copy constructor
21:35:36 <coppro> err
21:35:39 <coppro> default constructor
21:36:19 <coppro> unless necessary
21:36:29 <AnMaster> how does w3m display graphics in an xterm I wonder
21:36:40 <AnMaster> not that it does it well, it tends to end up in the wrong place
21:36:41 <AnMaster> but how
21:38:29 <coppro> in all seriousness, though, someone needs to come up with a decent C++ debugging format that isn't tacked on to a C format, because C++ debugging could be so much better, and not just by putting GDB in the trash bin where it belongs
21:38:47 <AnMaster> coppro, gdb is quite a nice debugger for C IMO
21:38:54 <AnMaster> can't say much about C++
21:38:57 <pikhq> Well, you could start by trashing C++.
21:39:10 <AnMaster> coppro, so what is the issue you have with gdb?
21:39:42 <coppro> AnMaster: for starters, its expression parser is bad, even in C
21:40:20 <AnMaster> coppro, examples?
21:40:55 <coppro> trying to get the name of an enum value that isn't the enum's type
21:41:43 <coppro> You used to be able to cast to the enum type; now you can't
21:41:50 <AnMaster> huh
21:42:05 <AnMaster> coppro, yes I noticed gdb 7 had some problems compared to older versions
21:42:16 <AnMaster> like, UL in a print expression not doing what it should
21:42:21 <AnMaster> which worked in gdb 6.8
21:42:27 <AnMaster> which is very very strange
21:43:49 <coppro> Yeah, it just feels like a hacked-together piece of software that gets used because no one's come up with an alternative
21:44:07 <fizzie> AnMaster: As far as I can tell from the w3mimg sources, it uses raw xlib to locate the terminal window, then somehow gets a graphics context for drawing on top of it, maybe-possibly by creating a sneaky new window (popup-style so that it won't show up in window lists and such) or not, not sure. Anyway it doesn't use the terminal emulator at all.
21:44:31 <pikhq> coppro: That's because enums are not a type in C. ;)
21:44:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's similar code for linux framebuffer, to draw directly into it. I think elinks or links2 or something supported the framebuffer like that too.
21:44:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: You know the flattening thing?
21:45:11 <pikhq> A C enum is one or more constant ints.
21:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> For BF?
21:45:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, aaargh
21:45:29 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: yes
21:45:37 <coppro> pikhq: enumerators are types
21:45:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, that explains why it does such a bad job for any terminal except xterm.
21:45:50 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you deal with it when you have one element. Like +.
21:46:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, does it do OCR or such to try to figure out where in the terminal it should be?
21:46:05 <pikhq> coppro: An enum in C is not a type.
21:46:40 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: What do you mean?
21:46:47 <alise__> Like [+]?
21:46:50 <alise__> Or the whole program +?
21:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Just "+". As the whole program.
21:47:06 <AnMaster> [+] would become "set current cell to 0"
21:47:09 <AnMaster> hm
21:47:17 <coppro> pikhq: oh, so it isn't. I misread.
21:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> But how would you encode it?
21:47:27 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: {1}
21:47:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it should compile into main(void) { return 0; } IMO
21:47:35 <AnMaster> since there is nothing visible from it
21:47:41 <alise__> AnMaster: please do not talk about things when you have no idea what we are talking about
21:47:47 <AnMaster> (dead store elimination and such)
21:47:53 <pikhq> It is in C++, but then, C++ only has a few vague similarities with C.
21:48:00 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: What N^n -> n thing were you considering?
21:48:16 <alise__> here's an easy one from N^2 -> N
21:48:20 <alise__> let (m,n) be the tuple
21:48:36 <alise__> write m and n in unary, i.e. as a series of 1s, in binary; so it's "1111..." in binary.
21:48:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I tried 2^(m-1)*(2n-1)
21:48:38 <alise__> put a 0 in between them.
21:48:41 <alise__> interpret this as binary
21:48:41 <alise__> done
21:48:46 <alise__> But that is only N^2.
21:48:53 <alise__> We actually need N^n.
21:49:02 <alise__> We can do this by seeing {a,b,c} as {a,{b,{c,{}}}}
21:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, a fold.
21:49:11 <alise__> And then adding one to every element we get from the bijection
21:49:13 <alise__> apart from {}
21:49:14 <alise__> which becomes 0
21:49:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I got that.
21:49:18 <alise__> that way we can distinguish nils
21:49:21 <alise__> and do it all with just N^2 -> N
21:49:21 <coppro> pikhq: Yet you can cast to an enum
21:49:26 <coppro> which is what gdb won't accept
21:49:33 <Phantom_Hoover> So + would be {1, 0}?
21:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> For EOF?
21:49:46 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, you can cast to an int.
21:49:47 <alise__> No, no, no.
21:49:55 <alise__> OK, you're totally not getting this :P
21:49:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh. I suck at this.
21:49:59 <alise__> Maybe I should just write a program?
21:50:00 <coppro> pikhq: or whatever the enumerated type is, if it isn't int
21:50:05 <alise__> Can you understand Haskell?
21:50:10 <pikhq> coppro: An enum is an int.
21:50:17 <coppro> pikhq: no
21:50:31 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Also, note that when we're done with this, we'll have every BF program has a nat, but only a (still infinite) subset of the nats have a BF program
21:50:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, yes, but it's not the easiest topic to grasp using an IRC channel.
21:50:38 <alise__> because some won't generate well-formed lists
21:50:39 <pikhq> coppro: Actually, an enum is an arbitrary grouping of global constant ints, and a type synonym for an int.
21:50:39 <alise__> I think
21:50:40 <alise__> not sure
21:50:42 <alise__> maybe I am wrong
21:50:47 <alise__> but you can probably fix that somehow
21:50:49 <alise__> we'll see
21:51:14 <coppro> pikhq: yeah, yeah. the type isn't necessarily int though
21:51:21 <pikhq> Yes it is.
21:51:27 <coppro> "Each enumerated type shall be compatible with char, a signed integer type, or an unsigned integer type. The choice of type is implementation-defined,110) but shall be capable of representing the values of all the members of the numeration. The enumerated type is incomplete until after the } that terminates the list of enumerator declarations."
21:51:40 <pikhq> Gaah.
21:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: I get the idea, it's just the precise structure of the list.
21:51:48 <pikhq> It's *an integral type*?
21:51:50 <pikhq> That's very annoying.
21:51:51 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Right; I'm gonna try and show it to you.
21:51:53 <coppro> the constants themselves have to fit in an int though
21:51:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it need a terminator or not?
21:52:12 <alise__> Sort offf not really.
21:52:17 <coppro> pikhq: It's so that the implmentation can choose a smaller type rather than wasting space on a value that needs 2 bits
21:52:24 <pikhq> Mmm.
21:52:56 -!- adu has joined.
21:54:56 <alise__> heh i'm just looking for a particularly nice N^2 -> N bijection
21:54:58 <alise__> oerjan must know one
21:55:28 <coppro> alise__: waitwhat?
21:55:42 <alise__> coppro: waitwhatwhat?
21:55:48 <alise__> what?
21:55:55 <adu> wha?
21:56:07 <coppro> isn't N^2 <-> N already a bijection?
21:56:21 <adu> Goedel numbers?
21:56:28 <coppro> in the positive numbers, anyways
21:56:38 <Phantom_Hoover> 2^a*3^b?
21:56:46 <alise__> coppro: yes... I mean give a functional relationship for it
21:56:50 <adu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del_numbering
21:56:54 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: hmm... what's the other way of that
21:57:04 <alise__> adu: nah i want something nice and simple and fitting-into-the-universey
21:57:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Factorise.
21:57:12 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: how's about no
21:57:16 <adu> alise__: how about placevalue?
21:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Because of the time?
21:57:28 <alise__> yea
21:57:34 <alise__> *yeah
21:57:42 <adu> how about N^2 -> R
21:57:49 <alise__> that isn't a bijection
21:57:55 <alise__> you can't write R -> N^2 surjection.
21:58:03 <adu> how about N^2 -> Q
21:58:13 <alise__> er, injection
21:58:14 <alise__> adu: easy.
21:58:17 <Phantom_Hoover> That has problems.
21:58:28 <adu> right, 2/4, 3/6, etc
21:58:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah.
21:58:50 <adu> then i recommend Goedel numbering
21:59:05 <alise__> N^2 <-> N we're talking about here
21:59:17 <alise__> and I would /really/ like to avoid goedel numbering, something simple-arithmetic would be vastly superior here, I know i've seen a really nice one
21:59:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: No, it doesn't do any OCR; I think that would be overkill. It just does really random stuff.
21:59:25 <alise__> think fax said it
21:59:32 <adu> then how about interpositioning their bits?
21:59:44 <adu> i.e. the placevalue solution i suggested
21:59:48 <alise__> adu: Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeel maybe.
21:59:52 <alise__> Bitwise is kinda hard in haskell
22:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> We'll need bignums for this.
22:00:11 -!- adam_d has joined.
22:00:13 <adu> if a = a1*2 + a0 and b = b1*2 + b0, then c = a1 b1 a0 b0
22:00:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: For example, it recognizes the text part of the terminal window by looking for a child window that has a width and height of at least 0.7 times the actual window; and then it does: if (attr.x <= 0 && attr.width < 30 && attr.height > wop->height * 0.7) /* scrollbar of xterm/kterm ? */ wop->offset_x += attr.x + attr.width + attr.border_width * 2;
22:00:59 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: thankfully, haskell is well-equipped to /that/ task
22:01:03 <alise__> ("Integer" built-in type)
22:01:05 <fizzie> It's not a surprise that thing breaks.
22:01:30 <alise__> adu: mehh maybe
22:01:41 <alise__> it'd just be really nice to get this so simple... :(
22:01:48 <alise__> oerjan: c'mon gimme a good N^2 <-> N bijection!
22:01:57 <fizzie> AnMaster: It also finds the terminal window by looking what window has the input focus.
22:02:40 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: sorry my OCD is totally interfering with me actually doing this
22:02:48 <alise__> I just need to find the perfect N^2 <-> N bijection first!
22:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't worry.
22:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't want to do it with anything involving factorising either.
22:03:25 <Phantom_Hoover> I'd like this to be at least fairly practocal.
22:03:35 <Phantom_Hoover> s/practocal/practical/
22:04:09 <alise__> yeah i mean bits would be perfectly practical... but right know the haskell code is like uber elegant
22:04:13 <alise__> and i've love not to have to fuck it up
22:04:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you even do bitwise arithmetic with bignums?
22:05:04 <alise__> well ... sort of
22:05:06 <Phantom_Hoover> s/arithmetic/operations/
22:05:15 <coppro> alise__: I don't even understand what you're after :/
22:05:49 <alise__> coppro: you know what a bijection is right...
22:05:50 <Phantom_Hoover> coppro: Ages ago, I asked if there was a bijective mapping between the naturals and the set of valid BF programs.
22:06:20 * Phantom_Hoover has learned lots of clever words today
22:06:27 <alise__> and I am currently coding up a lovely constructive proof of it!
22:06:37 <alise__> held up by the lack of elegant bijections from N x N to-fro N.
22:06:47 <alise__> *from, I guess :P
22:06:56 <coppro> alise__: Yes, I do. I don't understand what you're after though.
22:06:57 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: yes, you'll sound very intellectual
22:07:02 <alise__> coppro: qualify after
22:07:13 <coppro> trying to find
22:07:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I just wish that there was someone to sound intellectual to
22:07:22 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ##php
22:07:27 <alise__> coppro: ???
22:07:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I actually laughed at that one.
22:07:41 <alise__> coppro: I just want a nice bijection that uses mainly arithmetic and shizz... not factoring, or bit operations, etc
22:07:49 <alise__> i know there is one, i've just forgotten it :)
22:08:03 <coppro> ah
22:08:34 <Phantom_Hoover> What about the unary one?
22:09:09 <coppro> alise__: The triangular one should do it; let me try to recall it
22:09:14 <alise__> coppro: YES THAT ONE!
22:09:15 <fizzie> Didn't we once discuss the boring "triangular" mapping thing; the one that does 1; 2 3; 4 5 6; 7 8 9 10; ... as...
22:09:18 <alise__> I loved that one
22:09:23 <fizzie> Gah, I'm too slow.
22:10:08 <fizzie> Can't say I quite recall how elegant the mapping was, at least in the N-to-N x N direction.
22:10:24 <alise__> The unary mapping thing maps one number to unary(n) := [sum k : 0 <= k < n : (2^k) + 1]
22:10:24 <alise__> I think
22:10:43 <Phantom_Hoover> How does the triangular one work?
22:11:01 <alise__> it's something insanely clever and beautiful
22:11:06 <alise__> just wait for coppro's long-term and off-site memory banks to actiave
22:11:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Just zigzagging through the matrix?
22:11:10 <alise__> *activate
22:11:14 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
22:11:15 <coppro> I think it's (x, y) -> ((x+y-1)^2 + x + y-1)/2 - y - 1; this isn't simplest form though
22:11:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: Is that it?
22:12:15 <alise__> Anything without division? :-)
22:12:21 <alise__> I think fax's had no division...
22:12:25 <alise__> But sure, okay.
22:12:29 <alise__> Now how do I reverse that?
22:12:33 <coppro> it's only division by 2
22:12:37 <alise__> Looks like a log in there, if my sleep-deprived brain is right
22:13:09 <coppro> hm.. possibly
22:13:32 <alise__> how about
22:13:45 <alise__> sec
22:13:50 -!- adam_d has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:13:51 <alise__> *is right
22:13:57 <alise__> sec
22:14:06 <alise__> f(u, v) = u + (u + v + 1)(u + v) / 2
22:14:09 <alise__> how can we reverse this?
22:14:13 <fizzie> Shouldn't that last -1 be a +1? I mean, http://pastebin.com/zTkDymu9
22:14:17 <Sgeo> This thing keeps saying it's not getting power, but it's not shutting down
22:14:18 <alise__> (part of everything3 article "The set of rational numbers is countably infinite")
22:14:34 <Sgeo> everything3?
22:14:42 <alise__> fizzie: What's the freaky .^?
22:14:44 <alise__> Sgeo: I mean 2
22:14:54 <coppro> fizzie: Ah yes, it was a bracketing error. Was meant to be - (y - 1)
22:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: IIRC it's something to do with matrices.
22:15:00 <fizzie> alise__: Octave/Matlab's "do elementwise exponentiation, not matrix power".
22:15:03 <alise__> coppro: I think this one is easier:
22:15:05 <alise__> f(u, v) = u + (u + v + 1)(u + v) / 2
22:15:12 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: fizzie: ah
22:15:22 <alise__> obviously we do f(x) = x*2
22:15:31 <alise__> and have u+(u+v+1)(u+v)
22:15:32 <fizzie> They have .* and ./ and such too, though the use of ./2 was a bit overkill; dividing by a scalar is always elementwise.
22:15:32 <alise__> then what...
22:17:21 <alise__> THEN WHAT BITCHES
22:17:23 <alise__> THEN WHAT
22:17:34 <alise__> coppro: i'm doing all the eas^Whard work, you do all the har^Weasy work.
22:17:39 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:17:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, are we still trying to reverse f?
22:17:45 <fizzie> x + (x + y + 1)*(x + y) / 2 gives me antidiagonals of 4; 7 8; 11 12 13; 16 17 18 19; ... for some reason. I think in that one your x and y are supposed to start from 0. Not that it's a problem.
22:18:12 <alise__> A new f this time, yes.
22:18:21 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:18:22 <alise__> fizzie: Yes, starting from 0 is desirable.
22:18:35 <alise__> I wonder if any of the CASs can inverse a function...
22:18:59 <coppro> alpha can reverse it for one variable
22:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Is that even possible?
22:19:08 <alise__> it does it woo
22:19:13 <coppro> but can't take the extra step to reverse it for two since it's over the integers
22:19:14 <alise__> wait
22:19:15 <Phantom_Hoover> For two vars, I mean?
22:19:16 <alise__> in the (u+v) / 2
22:19:18 <alise__> the /2 is for the whole thing
22:19:19 <alise__> right
22:19:21 <alise__> not just the (u+v)
22:19:25 <alise__> f(u, v) = u + (u + v + 1)(u + v) / 2
22:19:32 <alise__> also it's over the naturals
22:19:36 <coppro> err, yes
22:19:39 <coppro> over the naturals
22:19:49 <alise__> alpha parsed it wrong with the /2 :(
22:19:58 <alise__> mind alpha's results /did/ give me square roots, so...
22:20:12 <coppro> the first u is not over the 2
22:20:15 * alise__ plugs in the right version
22:20:42 <coppro> and division is transitive with multiplication
22:20:52 <alise__> I haven't slept for over 24 hours, remember
22:20:55 <alise__> or something liek that figure
22:20:57 <alise__> *like
22:21:08 <Phantom_Hoover> How‽
22:21:16 * alise__ tries inversing your earlier one
22:21:18 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: what do you mean, how?
22:21:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you not sleep for that long?
22:21:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, heh at that terminal stuff, and it explains why it is above my tabs...
22:22:03 <coppro> alise__: They're pretty much the same function
22:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> What was *wrong* with the unary one?
22:22:27 <coppro> +- a constant factor
22:22:37 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: I've not slept for 40 hours before.
22:22:42 <alise__> Unary one -- because it doesn't include all naturals.
22:22:51 <alise__> There are naturals not of the form (in binary) 11111111111111111111...011111111111111.
22:22:52 <Phantom_Hoover> You mean 0?
22:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, yeah.
22:23:00 <alise__> There are, for instance, naturals like 1010101.
22:23:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Forgot that.
22:23:06 <alise__> Which Doesn't Work, Yo.
22:23:26 <alise__> I /could/ biject it as elem in unary 0 elem in unary 0 elem in unary, declare duplicate 0s to be ignored, but then it wouldn't be a bijection
22:23:31 <alise__> because the 0s would get lost in translation
22:23:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Can we just *try* factorisation?
22:23:40 <alise__> No >_<
22:23:51 <Phantom_Hoover> It's inelegant, but at least it *works*.
22:24:18 <AnMaster> night
22:26:36 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: But does it include every natural in the mapping?
22:26:36 <alise__> That's the important bit...
22:26:40 <coppro> question
22:26:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:27:02 <coppro> what constitutes a valid BF program
22:27:10 <coppro> alise__: Every natural except 1 and 0
22:27:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Google gives f(u, v) = 2^(u-1)*(2v-1)
22:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Which obviously works for all naturals >= 1.
22:27:47 <alise__> coppro: any program with balanced brackets.
22:27:52 <coppro> alise__: ah
22:28:07 <alise__> (consider a tape infinite on both sides)
22:28:23 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: 2^ means there's gonna be a sqrt.
22:28:30 <alise__> which will be inherently inaccurate ...
22:28:34 <alise__> or, will it?
22:28:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Reversing just takes factorisation.
22:29:02 <alise__> And sqrt.
22:29:05 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
22:29:10 <alise__> Er, inverse is actually -(log(-(1/2-v)/u))/(log(2)) apparently
22:29:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Nothing is squared.
22:29:25 <alise__> Er, right.
22:29:25 <alise__> How should we factorise it then?
22:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I was messing with it earlier.
22:29:51 <Phantom_Hoover> You just get the prime factors, which is the problem.
22:29:58 <alise__> Yeaaah
22:30:06 <alise__> Also, for every x, does there exist u, v such that 2^(u-1)*(2v-1) = x?
22:30:08 <alise__> I am not so sure.
22:30:21 <fizzie> It looks to be true, though.
22:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Actually, you only need the exponent of 2.
22:30:26 <fizzie> The table is at http://pastebin.com/3Hxr2XpJ
22:30:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Much easier.
22:30:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Though less elegant.
22:31:28 <alise__> fizzie: by adding (-1) to the whole thing can we get all naturals entirely?
22:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Given n, find the largest m s.t. n/2m is an integer.
22:31:45 * alise__ decides she needs octave, stat
22:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> s/2m/s^m/
22:32:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, you know what I mean.
22:32:07 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: We can do that "precisely" with modulo.
22:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah.
22:32:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Then divide n by 2^m, from which you can derive v.
22:32:41 <Phantom_Hoover> u comes from m easily.
22:33:06 <alise__> biTo :: (Integer, Integer) -> Integer
22:33:06 <alise__> biTo (u,v) = (2^(u-1)*(2v-1)) - 1
22:33:06 <alise__> Agreed?
22:33:18 <alise__> the -1 to cover all naturals
22:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah.
22:33:56 <fizzie> If you want that to accept as input also 0, you might need to do +1 to u and v.
22:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Bookkeeping.
22:34:40 <alise__> fizzie: Urgh, okay.
22:34:45 <alise__> so u+1-1 => 2^u
22:34:59 <alise__> biTo (u,v) = (2^u*(2*(v+1)-1)) - 1
22:35:00 <alise__> yeah?
22:35:08 <alise__> wait, that's 2*v... unless i'm parsing it wrong
22:35:10 <alise__> i think I am
22:35:24 <alise__> biFro1 :: Integer -> Integer
22:35:25 <alise__> biFro1 n = head . filter (\m -> mod (n+1) (2*m) == 0) $ [1..]
22:35:27 <alise__> anyway this finds m
22:35:38 <alise__> ugh, biFro1 0 doesn't work
22:35:46 <alise__> oh of course
22:35:46 <alise__> 1/n
22:35:47 <alise__> hmm
22:35:49 <alise__> do i need n+2?
22:35:49 <alise__> :/
22:36:03 <alise__> no, cuz no 2 either
22:36:04 <alise__> ugh
22:36:15 <alise__> in fact biFro1 never terminates apart from on simple values
22:36:18 <alise__> wtf am i doing wrong
22:36:19 -!- nooga has joined.
22:36:38 <nooga> )D. >
22:37:03 <fizzie> octave:35> [u, v] = ndgrid(0:2, 0:2); 2.^u .* (2*v+1)
22:37:04 <fizzie> ans =
22:37:04 <fizzie> 1 3 5
22:37:04 <fizzie> 2 6 10
22:37:04 <fizzie> 4 12 20
22:37:06 <fizzie> That looks okay.
22:37:15 <fizzie> Uh, and the -1 in the end.
22:37:31 <alise__> You know what? Just get Octave to invert the bloody function.
22:37:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Octave isn't a CAS.
22:37:53 <alise__> I DON'T CARE :P
22:37:55 <nooga> yea
22:37:57 <fizzie> Mathematica is, but I couldn't quite figure how to phrase the question.
22:38:13 <fizzie> There's an InverseFunction[] function, but it just prints f^-1 to me. :p
22:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I've got the algorithm, if anyone's interested.
22:38:22 <nooga> hahah :D
22:38:45 <nooga> i watched wolfram's talk @ TED
22:38:49 <alise__> fizzie: Here, you be my over-IRC mathematica shell and I think I know how to tell it
22:38:53 <nooga> man, he's crazy
22:38:58 <alise__> yar?
22:39:04 <fizzie> alise__: In[16]:=
22:39:10 <fizzie> As in, yes, I can paste things in.
22:39:18 <alise__> fizzie: RmRf["BIG FAT COCKS/"]
22:39:26 <alise__> Or, /me googles the right function arguments again
22:39:28 <fizzie> Out[16]= RmRf[BIG FAT COCKS/]
22:39:47 <alise__> fizzie: MathKernel$System["rm -rf ~"]
22:39:56 <fizzie> I think I'll skip that one.
22:40:02 <fizzie> Though it'd solve my quota problem, I guess.
22:40:08 <nooga> System is in MathKernel ?
22:40:18 <nooga> not the most ogical solution i've seen
22:40:25 <nooga> logical*
22:40:28 <alise__> i'm just making shit up
22:40:30 <alise__> :)
22:40:39 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: so what is the algorithm :P
22:40:41 <alise__> and I'll haskellise it
22:40:43 <nooga> then you do it wrong ;]
22:41:22 <nooga> haskell <3
22:41:34 <fizzie> alise__: If you want, you could do <<"!rm -rf whatever"
22:41:50 <nooga> maybe
22:41:55 <alise__> fizzie: <<"anus"
22:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: Wait a bit.
22:42:11 <nooga> maybe we should think about rm -rf based esolang
22:42:12 <fizzie> That's just a read-file, the ! is important there.
22:42:12 <nooga> like
22:42:13 <alise__> WAIT A BIT FOR THE ANUS
22:42:19 <alise__> anus is an important file
22:42:32 <nooga> hmm
22:43:23 <fizzie> alise__: Aha-ha: http://pastebin.com/xjqxZLnw
22:43:33 <alise__> fizzie: what is it? internet is borky
22:43:44 <fizzie> Well, I guess I can paste, it's not that much.
22:43:50 <fizzie> In[1]:= <<anus
22:43:51 <fizzie> GConf Error: Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details - 1: Not running within active session)
22:43:51 <fizzie> GConf Error: Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details - 1: Not running within active session)
22:43:52 <fizzie> Get::noopen: Cannot open anus.
22:43:54 <fizzie> Out[1]= $Failed
22:43:56 <fizzie> In[2]:= GConf Error: Failed to contact configuration server; some possible causes are that you need to enable TCP/IP networking for ORBit, or you have stale NFS locks due to a system crash. See http://projects.gnome.org/gconf/ for information. (Details - 1: Not running within active session)
22:44:02 <fizzie> I have zero idea why reading a file involves GConf somehow.
22:44:04 <nooga> 23:43 < fizzie> Get::noopen: Cannot open anus.
22:44:33 <alise__> ah yes, the goatse failure
22:45:13 <Phantom_Hoover> The brow level of this channel has plummeted.
22:45:34 <Sgeo> "He Has No Anus"
22:45:53 <Sgeo> ^^reference to a piece of music "He Has No Face", so obscure that Google isn't finding iot
22:46:24 <Sgeo> Or maybe not
22:46:27 <nooga> i'm looking for a name for my regexp compiler
22:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Fred.
22:46:41 <alise__> the brow level :D
22:46:41 <Sgeo> Found it
22:46:46 <alise__> Simian
22:46:56 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: So what is the algorithm?
22:46:59 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it's actually below the eyes.
22:47:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It's what I said.
22:47:04 <alise__> fizzie: okay try this
22:47:04 <alise__> Inverse[3]
22:47:08 <nooga> Frecle
22:47:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll pastebin it.
22:47:19 <Sgeo> http://modarchive.org/index.php?request=view_by_moduleid&query=73115
22:47:29 <Sgeo> That may or may not be it
22:47:38 <nooga> Fast Regular Expression CompiLEr ;]
22:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> http://pastebin.com/JrmRTyPf
22:47:40 <nooga> RECLE
22:47:42 <Sgeo> That's it LD
22:47:43 <nooga> FRECLE
22:47:43 <Sgeo> :D
22:47:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Basically.
22:47:59 <Sgeo> It came with Popcap's downloadable Alchemy
22:48:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't know if it goes into a declarative language easily.
22:48:17 <fizzie> alise__: Inverse::matsq: Argument 3 at position 1 is not a non-empty square matrix.
22:48:45 <alise__> InverseFunction[x^2==p*o*o*p, x]
22:49:00 <fizzie> 2 2 2
22:49:01 <fizzie> Out[4]= InverseFunction[x == o p , x]
22:49:33 <Sgeo> I love this tune
22:49:52 <alise__> #
22:49:53 <alise__> Find largest m such that n/2^m is an integer (easy with a loop and modulo)
22:49:57 <alise__> this is the bit that is not working so much :-)
22:50:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Hang on.
22:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> I'll try it in an imperative language.
22:50:14 <alise__> fizzie: InverseFunction[#&]
22:50:21 <alise__> but Phantom_Hoover
22:50:27 <alise__> we are going for ((2^u) * ((2*v) + 1)) - 1
22:50:35 <fizzie> alise__: Out[7]= #1 &
22:50:36 <alise__> which is quite different from yours!
22:50:40 <alise__> fizzie: good
22:50:51 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: Not really.
22:50:56 <fizzie> alise__: You have succesfully inverted the identity function.
22:51:03 <alise__> yayyy
22:51:03 <alise__> fizzie: InverseFunction[((2^#1)*((2*#2)+1))-1&]
22:51:07 <alise__> I am a real mathematician now
22:51:15 <fizzie> #1
22:51:15 <fizzie> Out[8]= InverseFunction[2 (2 #2 + 1) - 1 & ]
22:51:23 <alise__> fizzie: Die computer die
22:51:28 <alise__> (Put that in please)
22:51:38 <fizzie> Out[9]= computer die Die
22:51:56 <fizzie> I like how it sorts those words.
22:52:18 <alise__> fizzie: Solve[c*o*m*p*u*t*e*r^p*o*o*p == d*i*e]
22:52:53 * Sgeo wants an s3m player for Android
22:53:14 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:53:51 <fizzie> alise__: That is far too long to paste: http://zem.fi/~fis/foo00001.txt if you want to fetch a plaintext file.
22:54:01 <alise__> :D
22:54:03 <alise__> It hates me
22:54:24 <alise__> I like how it turned my inane childishness into a nice division with roots and logs.
22:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Looks slightly Latiny.
22:56:07 <alise__> Cemoprtu dei!
22:56:36 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, do you think you can revise the algorithm for ((2^u) * ((2*v) + 1)) - 1?
22:56:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
22:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm doing it now.
22:56:53 <alise__> yay
22:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Haskelling it is still up to you. I'm going to try it in Python, then Lisp.
22:59:01 <alise__> I just want the abstract algorithm.
22:59:04 <alise__> Since the formula changed.
22:59:07 <alise__> As I keep trying to tel you :p
22:59:09 <alise__> *tell
22:59:12 <alise__> *:P
22:59:19 <fizzie> Sgeo: You mean it doesn't play modules? How horrid. On maemo that's just "apt-get install mod-support"; it pulls in gstreamer0.10-modplug and libmodplug0c2 and supports .mod, .s3m, .it, .xm and whatevers.
23:00:06 <fizzie> A separate "s3m player" sounds a bad idea anyway, surely that sort of stuff should integrate with the other media codecs the device has. I assume you can add new codecs there somehow?
23:00:36 <Sgeo> fizzie, I don't know how
23:00:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: First, you need to add one to n at the start.
23:01:11 <alise__> Then? Presumably the equations for u and v differ.
23:01:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Then u=m
23:01:18 <fizzie> Some open system that is if you can't stick in new codecs.
23:01:42 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
23:02:06 <Phantom_Hoover> And v=(n/2^m-1)/2 (where n is f(u, v)+1)
23:02:27 <fizzie> There's some instructions on how to compile libmodplug with Android's NDK, but that's geared for someone who wants to use mod music in an app of his.
23:02:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It seems to work for u=2 and v=3, both ways.
23:02:52 <alise__> oh find LARGEST m
23:02:55 <alise__> that's even harder...
23:03:03 <alise__> how do we disprove that there can't be a larger m that's an int
23:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover> In Haskell?
23:03:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Or in general?
23:03:11 <fizzie> (With a Java thread to pull actually play sound, blegh.)
23:03:17 <alise__> And v=(n/2^m-1)/2 (where n is f(u, v)+1)
23:03:22 <alise__> so if we've added one to the start
23:03:24 <alise__> that's n'
23:03:26 <alise__> so it's n'/2
23:03:32 <alise__> right
23:03:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm confusing myself now.
23:03:54 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: just gimme your actual code :P
23:03:58 <alise__> for the mod thing
23:03:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, to find m you just iterate and check the mod.
23:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> And I can't, because I'm writing it now.
23:04:51 <alise__> ok :P
23:07:35 <fizzie> Largest m such that n/2^m is an integer? Do you really need to bother with modulo? Just iterate and do /2 to n as long as it stays even, and count how many times you did that?
23:07:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, and I use mod to check if n is even.
23:08:07 <Phantom_Hoover> def findm(n):
23:08:09 <Phantom_Hoover> m = 0
23:08:11 <Phantom_Hoover> while (n%2==0):
23:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> n /= 2
23:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> m += 1
23:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> return m
23:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Python, indentation not included.
23:08:47 <coppro> certainly seemed included to me
23:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh?
23:08:59 <fizzie> It's a bit cheapo indentation, just one space.
23:09:03 <Phantom_Hoover> You got the special offer.
23:09:05 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null).
23:09:30 <coppro> fizzie: It was a tab; your client must have converted
23:09:54 <fizzie> Really? I thought x-chat passed those straight through. Well, maybe not.
23:10:06 <coppro> (seriously, tabs in Python? yurk)
23:10:08 <fizzie> Yes, here in irssi it looks like the inverted-I.
23:10:16 <alise__> "This statement is sometimes used to illustrate the fact that the rational numbers are countable while reals are not. It is obviously true. Considering that obviously true statements in probability theory have a nasty habit of being false there is a point in proving it."
23:10:32 <alise__> <Phantom_Hoover> n /= 2
23:10:37 <alise__> so integer division works here?
23:10:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't divide when n isn't even.
23:10:58 <alise__> hmm
23:11:03 <Phantom_Hoover> while n%2==0
23:11:11 <alise__> so basically we're considering n to be one of [0..]
23:11:18 <alise__> aah i see
23:11:41 <alise__> basically we construct [n, n/2, n/2/2, ..., x] such that x is divisible by two
23:11:44 <alise__> then we take its length
23:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh no, not boundary conditions.
23:12:25 <augur> hallo
23:12:49 <alise__> v=(n'/2^m-1)/2 <- ((n')/(2^(m-1)))/2?
23:13:05 <alise__> (n'/2)^(m-1)/2?
23:13:35 <fizzie> For a fixed-bit number, I'm sure someone's done a bit-twiddling hack to do that in O(1). I would even guess it involves n^(n-1) and first-set-bit counting.
23:14:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I've got both functions in Python.
23:15:48 <alise__> how does v parse?
23:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> v = (n/2**m-1)/2
23:16:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Once you know m, it's trivial.
23:16:41 <Phantom_Hoover> I suppose I should prove that it's bijective, but it's late.
23:16:58 -!- fax has joined.
23:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It works for all n < 10
23:18:37 <alise__> god
23:18:39 <alise__> i mean the operators :||
23:19:55 <Phantom_Hoover> http://pastebin.com/6FMy5PK0 is my code.
23:21:05 <SgeoN1> My computer makes me want to scream right now
23:21:28 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
23:21:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:21:52 <fax> hi
23:21:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi.
23:22:19 <SgeoN1> It's an obsolete piece of technology!
23:22:43 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: this code injects NxN into N?
23:22:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Bijects.
23:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It goes both ways.
23:23:08 <fax> really
23:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Much pain went into it.
23:23:59 <fax> how do you get 5?
23:24:05 <fax> tup2n(?,?) = 5?
23:24:05 <Phantom_Hoover> 5?
23:24:26 <Phantom_Hoover> (1, 1)
23:24:46 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:24:58 <Phantom_Hoover> I did give the inverse function.
23:25:27 <SgeoN1> Adding 4 and 1?
23:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> 47
23:25:53 <fax> I can't see how this is a bijection if it's got 2^u in it, but it does seem to be
23:26:16 <Phantom_Hoover> It's because of unique factorisation.
23:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> 2n+1 can't be even if n is an integer.
23:26:39 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:26:46 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:27:03 <Phantom_Hoover> So u is the exponent of the 2.
23:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> v is a little more complex.
23:27:35 <fax> wow that is really clever
23:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I stole the injection of NxN to N from Google, but I did the inverse myself.
23:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not that good.
23:28:14 <fax> I know a much simpler way to find a bijection between N and NxN
23:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> What?
23:28:28 <fax> but this is much more clever
23:29:24 <Phantom_Hoover> What's the simpler way?
23:29:55 <Phantom_Hoover> This started as an attempt to biject the natural numbers and the valid Brainfuck programs, BtW.
23:30:02 <alise__> which i am finishing now
23:30:05 <fax> take the sequence {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,...}
23:30:18 <fax> the finite integral of f(n) = n is {1,3,6,10,15,...}
23:30:22 <fax> triangular numbers
23:30:31 <fax> call that function T(n)
23:30:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__ found a neat way of flattening a valid BF program into a list of naturals.
23:31:01 <Phantom_Hoover> So then we needed to fold that into a single natural, which requires a bijection.
23:31:12 <alise__> so I ask again,
23:31:12 <alise__> (n/2**m-1)/2
23:31:13 <alise__> is this
23:31:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
23:31:22 <alise__> (n/(2**(m-1)))/2
23:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> That is v.
23:31:25 <alise__> or something else
23:31:31 <alise__> i am asking about parenthesisation dammit
23:31:35 <alise__> haskell has different ops
23:31:44 <alise__> please fully parenize it
23:31:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know! Hang on, I'll try.
23:32:40 <SgeoN1> My computer's acting deas
23:32:48 <SgeoN1> *deas
23:32:58 <SgeoN1> *dead
23:33:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: (n/2**m-1)/2
23:33:58 <alise__> ...
23:34:01 <Phantom_Hoover> For Haskell.
23:34:06 <alise__> no, because it has to be div.
23:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Div?
23:34:15 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:34:19 <alise__> can you please fully, fully, parenise, the /python/ expression
23:34:25 <alise__> then i can /easily/ translate it to hs
23:34:36 <Phantom_Hoover> That *was* the HS expression.
23:34:44 <alise__> It's worng.
23:34:45 <alise__> *wrong
23:34:49 <alise__> Because it must be div.
23:35:05 <alise__> Now please paren the Python one because it's the only way I'm going to be able to put this in the Haskell source.
23:35:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Paren it for precedence?
23:35:40 <Phantom_Hoover> ((n/(2**m))-1)/2
23:35:58 <alise__> Thank you! <3
23:36:04 <Phantom_Hoover> What is div?
23:36:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Division on bignums.
23:36:27 <alise__> division on integers
23:36:29 <alise__> not floats etc
23:36:30 <coppro> the right operator
23:36:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: The function should never give floats, but it's probably the type system, right?
23:37:16 <alise__> Prelude> :t (/)
23:37:16 <alise__> (/) :: (Fractional a) => a -> a -> a
23:37:17 <alise__> Prelude> :t div
23:37:17 <alise__> div :: (Integral a) => a -> a -> a
23:37:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
23:37:30 <alise__> *Main> biFro (biTo (2,4))
23:37:31 <alise__> (2,3)
23:37:38 <alise__> Consistent off-by-one.
23:37:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Fenceposts.
23:38:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I hate them.
23:38:04 <alise__> yar
23:38:28 <coppro> seems easy to fix
23:38:38 <alise__> *Main> fmap biFro [0..10]
23:38:39 <alise__> [(0,0),(1,0),(0,1),(2,0),(0,2),(1,1),(0,3),(3,0),(0,4),(1,2),(0,5)]
23:38:47 <alise__> Weird-ass mapping.
23:38:51 <alise__> Weird ass-mapping.
23:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> But it *works*.
23:39:56 -!- nooga has joined.
23:40:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: I assume it's biFro with the fencepost.
23:40:20 <alise__> yeah
23:40:31 <alise__> now I just need to write the flattener
23:40:33 <alise__> and it's done
23:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Is the fencepost fixed?
23:41:42 <alise__> *Main> decrush . crush $ [1,2,3]
23:41:42 <alise__> [1,2,3]
23:41:43 <alise__> yep
23:41:55 <alise__> ,[.,] = 134184943
23:42:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool.
23:42:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Now to write it to a file...
23:42:24 <alise__> Oh I can do all that.
23:42:29 <oerjan> how did you encode ,[.,] into tuples again?
23:42:30 <alise__> *Main> fmap decrush [0..20]
23:42:30 <alise__> [[],[1],[0,1],[2],[0,0,1],[1,1],[0,2],[3],[0,0,0,1],[1,0,1],[0,1,1],[2,1],[0,0,2],[1,2],[0,3],[4],[0,0,0,0,1],[1,0,0,1],[0,1,0,1],[2,0,1],[0,0,1,1]]
23:42:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Wonderful.
23:42:43 <alise__> oerjan: make the non-loop instructions6 0-
23:42:45 <alise__> *0-6
23:42:46 <alise__> then
23:42:51 <alise__> loop :: [Integer] -> [Integer]
23:42:51 <alise__> loop = map (6 +)
23:42:55 <alise__> foo = [input] ++ loop [input, output]
23:43:01 <alise__> foo == [4,10,11]
23:43:05 <Phantom_Hoover> What does it give for "+"?
23:43:13 <alise__> 1
23:43:15 <oerjan> i see. that is wrong.
23:43:28 <oerjan> alise__: that encoding _deletes_ all ][ sequences
23:43:36 <alise__> oerjan: Shit.
23:43:41 <alise__> clearly I need one extra; nop
23:43:44 <Phantom_Hoover> *facepalm*
23:43:53 <oerjan> let me suggest instead: loop :: [Integer] -> Integer
23:43:54 <alise__> so ][ becomes nop
23:44:01 <alise__> oerjan: oh good idea
23:44:08 <alise__> crush the entire thing
23:44:12 <alise__> and add 6
23:44:15 <oerjan> yep
23:44:21 <nooga> what is that?
23:44:23 -!- hiato has joined.
23:44:43 <alise__> *Main> crush foo
23:44:44 <alise__> 2808895523222368605827039360607851146278089029597354019897345018089573059460952548948569958162617750330001779372990521213418590137725259726450741103741783193402623334763523207442222181269470220616454421126328215138096104411600982523029892352200425580677351729446660909999175717788745567263052442650378502127
23:44:45 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: lol
23:45:01 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: now i must tell you, there is one remaining issue
23:45:02 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga: The whole mess? An attempt at making a bijective mapping between the naturals and the valid BF programs.
23:45:05 <alise__> decrush is NOT int -> bf prog
23:45:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn.
23:45:16 <alise__> no wait it is!
23:45:21 <alise__> since every integer is now a valid loop!
23:45:27 <Phantom_Hoover> W00t!
23:45:33 <alise__> i am so happy I am going to write [Integer] -> String prettyprinter now
23:45:39 <alise__> so we can look at the ordering of the bf programs
23:45:41 <alise__> this is beautiful
23:45:44 <alise__> the best work i have ever done
23:45:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I helped!
23:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> So it's the best thing I have been involved in...
23:46:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool!
23:46:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Can I see the code?
23:46:58 <Phantom_Hoover> What shall we call it?
23:47:00 <SgeoN1> Wish I could have helped :-[
23:47:08 <coppro> SgeoN1: playing mafia?
23:47:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Brainmap?
23:47:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Too boring.
23:47:35 <oerjan> brainsquish
23:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's more than a compression algorithm.
23:47:56 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: Er, it doesn't /quite/ work yet.
23:48:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Awww.
23:48:03 <alise__> Oh, that's hwy!
23:48:04 <alise__> *why
23:48:05 <alise__> nm
23:48:14 <alise__> Now it does
23:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ^^
23:48:36 <hiato> alise__: bf to int?
23:48:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Nat, actually.
23:48:50 <alise__> and back again
23:48:52 <alise__> but yeah, nat
23:48:59 <alise__> every nat to a program; every program to a nat.
23:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Valid BF, too.
23:49:03 <alise__> who wants to see the first 100 bf programs?
23:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Me!
23:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> And the code!
23:49:19 <alise__> Programs first -- then code!
23:49:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay!
23:49:33 <alise__> http://pastie.org/942858.txt?key=jan8h4duifdooaap617mg
23:49:37 <nooga> who
23:49:41 <alise__> Chaos, it looks like. I bet if fizzie did it in a table it'd show coherency.
23:49:41 <hiato> Hmm, so is it every nat to valid bf?
23:49:43 <alise__> But linearly...
23:49:44 <nooga> wow
23:49:45 <alise__> hiato: yep
23:49:50 <hiato> nice
23:49:51 <fax> ummmm
23:49:52 <fax> WHY?
23:49:53 <alise__> we've successfully well-ordered the bf programs
23:49:59 <fax> just use binary for fucks sake
23:50:00 <alise__> fax: To Show It Could Be Done.
23:50:09 <alise__> fax: aha but
23:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> fax: Binary doesn't work.
23:50:13 <alise__> then not every natural is a valid prog
23:50:14 <alise__> consider +[
23:50:15 <hiato> and in Haskell I see
23:50:16 <alise__> or +]
23:50:16 * SgeoN1 wants his computer to work
23:50:18 <alise__> that's the challenge
23:50:24 <fax> lame and trivial
23:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> fax: SILENCE!
23:50:46 <alise__> fax: it was /not/ trivial; and fuck off.
23:50:51 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: what does it matter, you don't listen to me even if I am saying something
23:50:53 <hiato> alise__: apparently your upload does not exist
23:50:55 <pikhq> He's got a 1:1 mapping from Brainfuck to the naturals. Because he felt like it.
23:51:00 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: I'm going to write a parser now
23:51:01 <fax> alise__ lol okay maybe not for you
23:51:03 <alise__> and then a CLI interface
23:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise__: Peanuts!
23:51:20 <pikhq> Useless, sure. But not quite the same as just "using binary".
23:51:22 <alise__> fax: you know what? you're a huge asshole who just spends all of their time calling other people cunts
23:51:23 <alise__> so, go away.
23:51:28 <Phantom_Hoover> And you can't really parse it without translating it.
23:51:29 <alise__> parser tiem nao
23:51:33 <fax> alise__: fuck you
23:51:33 <alise__> easy
23:51:36 <fax> alise__: You're a cunt
23:51:41 <alise__> fax: yes; that was the sentiment i was trying to express
23:51:43 <fax> alise__: I never said that about anyone
23:51:46 <Phantom_Hoover> SHUTUPSHUTUPSHUTUP!
23:51:47 <alise__> orly.
23:51:53 <alise__> i know for a fact that's false sooo
23:52:12 <fax> alise__: you just made it up, grep everything I said today if your brain can't do it
23:52:25 <fax> which wouldn't suprise me
23:52:25 <alise__> not today sure...
23:52:34 <alise__> anyway this is boring; you are boring; and also a dick; so I'm not talking to you any more.
23:52:44 <Oranjer> yay!
23:52:46 * Phantom_Hoover feels like
23:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
23:52:59 <SgeoN1> How about a mapping to all bf programs that don't have things like +-
23:53:12 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1: Madness.
23:53:18 <fax> lol @ alise getting all upset because he thought his trivial program was difficult to write
23:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> If you want, fine, but it's hard to objectively define a notrivial program.
23:53:32 <fax> pathetic.
23:53:52 <alise__> i didn't think it was difficult
23:53:58 <alise__> i just thought it was beautiful.
23:54:12 <fax> it's completely trivial
23:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Can I *please* have the code?
23:54:18 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: i'm adding a parser!!
23:54:21 <alise__> sheesh and people have called /me/ the negative influence in this place
23:54:24 <Phantom_Hoover> fax: Shut up, all right.
23:54:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Grown-ups are doing things.
23:54:45 <fax> lol
23:54:58 <fax> "grown ups" spending your time fucking about wanking with brainfuck programming
23:55:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh. Stuck in an ego clash.
23:55:08 * Phantom_Hoover runs.
23:55:17 <SgeoN1> A parser for bf? I wrote one of those
23:55:20 <fax> implying that grown ups have time for this shit
23:55:29 <fax> that's the funniest thing I've ever heard: HAHAHAHAHA
23:55:36 <Phantom_Hoover> fax: Oh, no, you're one of *those* people.
23:55:42 <alise__> fax: so here's an idea
23:55:49 <alise__> if you are not interested in what we are talking
23:55:53 <alise__> you could firstly
23:55:53 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: I was perfectly fine until you completely ignored me
23:55:54 <alise__> SHUT
23:55:55 <alise__> THE
23:55:55 <alise__> FUCK
23:55:56 <alise__> UP
23:55:57 <alise__> and secondly
23:55:58 <alise__> GET
23:56:00 <alise__> THE
23:56:02 <alise__> FUCK
23:56:03 <alise__> OUT
23:56:06 <alise__> and then both our problems will be solved.
23:56:19 <SgeoN1> Fax, this is #esoteric. #productive-stuff-only is that way --->
23:56:20 <fax> sure is /ignore alise__ in here
23:56:34 <alise__> Sure is mentally ignoring fax in here.
23:56:59 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ok, just gonna add a tiny little cli to it
23:57:01 <alise__> and we're done
23:58:19 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
23:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> So what will we call it?
23:58:39 * SgeoN1 wants to see it too, especially since he has no idea what thhe algorithm is
23:59:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo: While we're here, I might as well explain.
23:59:16 <fax> Phantom_Hoover: did you get that?
23:59:17 <alise__> we should call it Bifro.
23:59:23 <fax> earlier you asked me to explain something
23:59:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
23:59:30 <fax> so I started... then you just talked over me
23:59:34 <alise__> because one of my functions is named that, and it makes me think of afro
23:59:43 <alise__> Phantom_Hoover: ignore fax he has serious emotional issues when people "ignore" him
23:59:59 <nooga> too much toner
←2010-05-01 2010-05-02 2010-05-03→ ↑2010 ↑all