< 1273277257 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gnab* < 1273277290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gnab...orretni! < 1273277378 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1273278001 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1273278007 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It turns out who you thought was the main bad guy(s) is really a < 1273278011 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double double agent. < 1273279150 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I want in D&D is "Break Into Debugger" spell. < 1273279582 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah. < 1273279666 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i would think wanting your D&D playing to resemble the programming you do everyday defeats the spirit of roleplaying in a horrendous way. < 1273279792 0 :Patashu!~Patashu@c122-106-156-182.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1273280259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1273281338 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, then........ < 1273281462 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, (in the game) I need a tool for drawing large circles on the ground, and also a ring of anti-magic, and... < 1273281547 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...enough bonus to Diplomacy to use it to beholders. < 1273282416 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is going to require good timing. (And also zwischenzug. And "iron restraint".) < 1273282530 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273282973 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION pulls out his Finnish and reviews. < 1273283131 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to Finnish Wikipedia to read about the koirat again. < 1273283417 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"kojootti" < 1273283420 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, what a cute word. < 1273283744 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/QR8ettwJ < 1273283801 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: L < 1273283927 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No < 1273283938 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/GFwGcCnh < 1273283969 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aww, it was a valid command up there. < 1273284071 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in this situation it should be obvious why it is no longer valid? < 1273284186 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1273284232 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1273284250 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, now I have no idea what command to use next. < 1273284259 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, last time, L essentially gave a list of valid commands. < 1273284265 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would expect it to do the same here. < 1273284443 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/VyKq7ZEM < 1273284471 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got it. < 1273284526 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, how about P and I? < 1273284567 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-15-130.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1273284610 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/KRDYh8pF < 1273284647 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like S2 is pretty much the only option. < 1273284674 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Koira on ihmisen kesyttämistä eläimistä vanhin. < 1273284677 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A dog is man's oldest domesticated animals. < 1273284715 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops there is ' in there. < 1273284727 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/wVNrMenD < 1273284754 0 :cheater2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1273284804 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :L < 1273284884 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/Yq1K66yn < 1273284907 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 < 1273285012 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/zFfBLLYY < 1273285032 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273285038 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273285049 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next time, I'm using RAZOR LEAF and TACKLE. < 1273285059 0 :aox!~Agent@203.109.165.173 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273285083 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, what the heck was that? < 1273285107 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1273285127 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where were you getting this? < 1273285132 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just made it up. < 1273285138 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1273285141 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably contains errors anyways. < 1273285149 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't properly exist < 1273285324 0 :fax!~none@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1273285338 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can genetic code mutate? if you change one letter of a program it will break.. what about a genetic programming langauge that does not break if you change a tiny bit of it < 1273285384 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parts of ordinary computer programs are quite evolvable. < 1273285387 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you need a programming language (and programming) that is highly redundant < 1273285398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the color scheme, the GUI, how often the garbage collector runs, choice of algorithms... < 1273285399 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you need mutations described syntactically not on the per letter word < 1273285428 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If a garbage collector runs every 100 milliseconds, it's not going to break the program if that number is changed to 120. < 1273285431 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Creature brains were designed so that mutations don't become syntax errors < 1273285442 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, unless the program's time sensitive < 1273285448 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creature brains? < 1273285452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hmm, true. < 1273285465 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does the topic say Alise-alert < 1273285474 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, wish to explain Creature brains? < 1273285489 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know very little about Creature brains. < 1273285501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: because it is weekend and e is not here < 1273285512 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that they're neural nets. < 1273285520 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was e supposed to come on this weekend? < 1273285545 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: i think so. i didn't recall anything about _not_ coming. < 1273285575 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Creatures is a game [series] with Artificial Life < 1273285590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`creatures What? < 1273285592 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The brains have lobes, containing neurons, and dendrites, connecting neurons < 1273285594 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273285621 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lobes and dendrites have SVRules, rules like "Get value from neuron" "Add 1 to accumulator" < 1273285624 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or somesuch < 1273285631 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at some level, it's easy to mutate, I think < 1273285647 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in C3, they don't mutate, so it's a bit of a moot point < 1273285891 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be fun to make a program that evolves bits of circuitry. < 1273285907 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people do that in real life already < 1273285924 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's this special kind of circuit that has lots of circuits and randomly mutates its configuration < 1273285934 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's used to create circuits to satisfy some requirement < 1273285944 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and often it's not obvious how the created circuit actually does its job < 1273285949 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just like biological evolution!) < 1273285957 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write a program that evolves something < 1273285957 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that called the Insane FPGA? :P < 1273285964 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Tim Tyler wrote about something like that. < 1273285992 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to lament about how Tim Tyler's name is nowhere on cell-auto.com, but actually it is. < 1273286129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well now you can't, because lament's not here! < 1273286155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION slips back under rock < 1273287241 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273287286 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273287446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION crawls out from under rock < 1273287453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you might try again now < 1273287458 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION crawls back < 1273287479 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to lament about how Tim Tyler's name is nowhere on cell-auto.com, but actually it is. < 1273287486 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, did I succeed in lamenting that time? < 1273287498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully we'll soon find out < 1273287798 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders what to do next. < 1273287924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could take up quilting < 1273287996 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll suddenly decide that I do understand Plash after all, and thus write a wiki using it. < 1273288035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you'll discover you were wrong, but only after making a completely hilarious site < 1273288101 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION listens to John Powell's "This Is Berk". < 1273288122 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope I'm spreading my tweets over sufficiently many IRC channels. :P < 1273288123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curses, foiled again < 1273288155 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You were foiled by my listening to "This Is Berk"? < 1273288160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends. how many have banned you so far? < 1273288169 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None! < 1273288172 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. it is way outside my expertise. < 1273288193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you are not trying hard enough. < 1273288227 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1273288235 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to SSH to zbasu.net. < 1273288290 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION fails after trying four different usernames. < 1273288305 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION googletects a lojban word < 1273288329 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION resets its root password. < 1273288356 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION moves his Chrome window so that he can see some of iTunes. < 1273288376 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sips some water < 1273288473 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets thirsty. < 1273288497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION talks about himself in the third person < 1273288497 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION resets its non-root password and deletes its root password, then ensures that non-root has sudo access before exiting. < 1273288502 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION logs in as non-root. < 1273288525 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does the same, but in a manner that makes it impossible to tell what set of pronouns is being used. < 1273288554 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see... I need apache. < 1273288572 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a helper script. < 1273288590 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up who his DNS is run by. < 1273288628 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slicehost. < 1273288668 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to remember why he didn't switch to Linode. < 1273288688 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether he ever got that refund for canceling within the first seven days. < 1273288694 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's how you spell "canceling". < 1273288740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`define canceling < 1273288742 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* canceled - Alternative spelling of cancelled; Alternative spelling of cancelled \ [22]en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canceled \ * To prevent further use of a printing plate after an edition has been printed, the artist sometimes "cancels" the plate by X-ing it out or in some other way defacing it. Sometimes cancellation < 1273288770 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION finishes listening to Aleksi Aubry-Carlson's "Battle Music" and begins listening to Marc Russo's "Central Park Sunday". < 1273288783 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you can tell, I like listening to artists whose names are people's names. < 1273288800 0 :ChanServ!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+o oerjan < 1273288807 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh oh. < 1273288823 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would listen to Modest Mouse, but unfortunately "Modest" isn't generally used as a first name. < 1273288823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I THINK THAT'S QUITE ENOUGH OF THAT < 1273288829 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aiee! < 1273288833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :+b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com < 1273288833 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a nickname < 1273288868 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, what did uorygl do? < 1273288888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXCESSIVE TWEETING < 1273288908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com < 1273288950 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid MODE #esoteric :-o oerjan < 1273288952 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273288968 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel so much better now that I've been kickbanned. < 1273289019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of these days i'll get to use ops for something actually serious < 1273289039 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: you mean you wouldn't listen to Modest Mussorgsky either? < 1273289171 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I might, now that you've asked. < 1273289196 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'd listen to that guy, but probably not much. < 1273289216 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you listen to Eliezer? < 1273289227 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i discovered on wikipedia yesterday there was actually an Alexandru Robot < 1273289232 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I'd listen to an Eliezer. < 1273289249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, it was not his original name < 1273289279 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. Now I don't think I would listen to him. < 1273289331 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well he was a poet not a musician < 1273289363 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, I think he was a musician. < 1273289385 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are we talking about the same person < 1273289398 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not if I'm talking about a musician and you're talking about a non-musician poet. < 1273289420 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you're talking about Alexandru Robot and I'm talking about Modest Muss . . . . < 1273289439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cackles evilly < 1273289470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my plan to confuse you by not mentioning which lines i'm replying to has succeeded < 1273289482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :took long enough though < 1273289515 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really want to cause me sorrow, then refuse to teach me category theory. < 1273289523 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1273289540 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, is a colimit like a limit except that the functors of the cone all go to the same object rather than all coming from the same object? < 1273289556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all arrows are reversed yeah < 1273289560 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the dual concept < 1273289579 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1273289600 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see if I can extend what I know of limits to colimits. < 1273289641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, a colimit is a limit in the dual category < 1273289660 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's pretty clear what the dual category is. < 1273289684 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do colimits involve covariant or contravariant functors? < 1273289748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess a contravariant functor is just a covariant functor with one of the categories dualized, so... < 1273289811 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if a limit in a dual category is a covariant functor, then the colimit is contravariant < 1273289850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-dual, just confusing there < 1273289869 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess for all this understanding of limits I have, I don't know which part of it "the limit" is. :P < 1273289896 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it the cone? The cone's domain? The... I don't know what else it could be. < 1273289898 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i'm not much used to thinking of limits as functors really, although i _think_ i know how they are < 1273289929 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was under the impression that limits were *of* functors. < 1273289953 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :functors from a category of diagrams iirc < 1273289984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1273290005 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here we go. "A limit of the diagram F : J -> C is a cone (L, φ) to F such that . . ." < 1273290026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the limit is probably itself a functor from the diagram to Hom(-, O) where O is the object we also call the limit < 1273290096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically you need both the limit object and arrows from the original diagram's objects to it < 1273290117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm perhaps a cone is this thing i mean < 1273290135 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand this category theory stuff < 1273290148 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: I didn't, either, but then somebody taught me, and then I did. < 1273290253 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know _that_ much category theory myself < 1273290273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just mostly learned what i needed to know < 1273290324 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and things like limits weren't necessarily defined in the most abstract way possible, i don't really recall cones there < 1273290340 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much category theory did you need to know, and why did you need to know it? < 1273290347 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is not enough use of category theory to make it easy to learn < 1273290348 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"where she was released on her own recognizance." < 1273290349 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF? < 1273290355 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.1010wins.com/Cops-Say-Teens-Planned-Attack-at-Connetquot-High/6997999 < 1273290360 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the real uses of category theory are probably ridiculously advanced < 1273290366 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i did take homological algebra < 1273290371 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is difficult to pick it up if you are a novice < 1273290378 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and read a book on algebraic topology < 1273290402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there were bits and pieces in other places probably < 1273290420 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't know any uses of category theory. :P < 1273290481 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :homological algebra is a main use of it, Saunders Maclane invented category theory for it i think < 1273290494 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, to learn what I know about category theory, I had to know what a set is, and what a function is. I think that's pretty much it. < 1273290598 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algebra homomorphisms and linear transformations are important examples < 1273290616 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the latter is a special case of the former) < 1273290678 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION suddenly realizes that he's tired. < 1273290704 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn it, now how will I figure out what colimits look like? < 1273290739 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like limits, except the colimit is on the other side :) < 1273290806 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1273290837 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suddenly feel like learning to draw would be a really good idea. < 1273290859 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm good enough at visualizing abstract stuff; concrete stuff, not so much. < 1273290875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah category theory without diagrams is hopeless < 1273290904 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use mental diagrams. < 1273290910 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're more difficult but more powerful, too. < 1273290945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the point is some proofs have more arrows than you can reasonably hold in your head < 1273290966 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then I will stare at them until I can hold them all in my head. < 1273290971 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless there are, like, hundreds. < 1273290984 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case I shall run away with my tail between my legs. < 1273291021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have heard short-term memory only has room for about 7 items < 1273291059 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That can be expanded with practice. < 1273291955 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1273292669 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273295828 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273295829 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1273296736 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273300052 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273300062 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273300092 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1273300107 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273300508 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1273301778 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273302590 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Night all < 1273302695 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1273305599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1273305600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1273305734 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1273305771 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1273306268 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1273306660 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273307048 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1273307571 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1273307984 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273309555 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1273309937 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273310210 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1273312440 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1273312876 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names? < 1273312881 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/hot/host/ < 1273313969 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1273314064 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273315843 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273316190 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1273316819 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.100 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273316834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tap tap tap* < 1273316837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this thing on? < 1273316840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :///FEEDBACK < 1273316846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :///static < 1273316860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mrrf unt rffp krrngk rrt, rrrr///FEEDBACK < 1273316865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello? ...There. < 1273316868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dispatch #xkcd. < 1273316873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, No. xkcd. < 1273316881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alert officially de-classified. < 1273316924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:20:33 --- mode: oerjan set +b *!*Warrigal@*.midsouth.biz.rr.com < 1273316925 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :19:20:33 --- kick: uorygl was kicked by oerjan (uorygl) < 1273316926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my. < 1273317026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:01:16 Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names? < 1273317030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Wikipedia is tooootally hot < 1273317162 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273317201 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1273317237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :15:18:17 I see Alise's school hours < 1273317237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1273317437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:50:15 Yes. My thoughts were more along the lines of making punctuation just be a very, very short way of writing some sort of word or phrase that should be said in various places. For instance, "foo, bar, qux quuxy." would be read as "foo comma bar comma qux quuxy stop". < 1273317439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :' is pronounced h in lojban < 1273317498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:47:46 Not even erotic Core War fanfics? How strange. < 1273317502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd have to be vore! < 1273317541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As eras1b2v3 slowly ate at every single bit of standstill, it moaned by copying a few bits after it in the tape and wriggling along... but eras1b2v3 was too fast for it, and soon it was completely consumed." < 1273317545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahem. < 1273317644 0 :Leonidas_!~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1273317931 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1273317934 0 :cheater3!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Write error: Connection reset by peer < 1273317955 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:39:37 dd just craps out on errors. ddrescue goes crazy and gets the data off the disc anyways. < 1273317957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reminds me of cdparanoia < 1273317959 0 :cheater3!~cheater@ip-80-226-15-130.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1273318014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:18:10 Malcolm Gladwell has some theories in his book Outliers, nooga < 1273318016 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a theory that malcom gladwell is a charlatan < 1273318021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i need 10,000 hours to confirm it... < 1273318098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:50:50 ah, there's nothing better than setting your alarm clock in cron < 1273318102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from not setting your alarm clock at all < 1273318330 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hey honey < 1273318335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1273318339 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1273318351 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being called honey is possibly the biggest motivation so far to change my nick back :D < 1273318364 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a standard greeting from me < 1273318395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh so I can't escape no matter what i do :D < 1273318436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, UK election results: All the votes have been counted, and we still don't know who's won. < 1273318444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact nobody's won. State of complete anarchy. Have fun. < 1273318451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I gather this is how it works.) < 1273318475 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: as i posted on facebook, perhaps a better question to ask is "who lost?" < 1273318486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Society :P < 1273318493 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no idea why i did that highlight there) < 1273318502 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... i was thinking "everyone", but yes < 1273318529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how everybody was so excited about the Lib Dems that they forgot to vote for them entirely. < 1273318544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they can't win anyway, right? Neither can the Conservatives :P < 1273318568 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did notice that they had a higher popular vote, and a higher popular vote %age than in 2005, yes? < 1273318610 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but admittedly, yes, i think that a lot of the people who wanted to vote lib dem ended up not doing so, because of tactical voting < 1273318613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's still nowhere near what everyone was raving about. < 1273318623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some good that tactical voting did :-) < 1273318632 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lib dem support dropped between debate 1 and debate 3 < 1273318683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least we've finally got a nice American Presidential election system < 1273318694 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i had something shived through my door wednesday evening saying "in 71 constituencies (yours is one of them), the best way to keep the tories out is to vote labour" < 1273318717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it kept everybody out! < 1273318720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which might actually be an improvement... < 1273318769 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that + similar pushes from the tories ("vote clegg, get brown") meant that those who wanted to vote lib dem switched to keep $CHOSEN_ENEMY out < 1273318816 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mother did very strongly consider voting labour to stop the tories here < 1273318818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These people are tarnishing the good name of rational tactical voting :P < 1273318823 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1273318837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I was Russell O'Connor, I would be advocating stochastic elections. < 1273318838 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that kinda backfired though < 1273318839 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because < 1273318850 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :labour came 3rd here (Bristol North West) < 1273318854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(where tactical voting becomes "honest" voting) < 1273318884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The stocastic voting system is the only voting system that gives proportional representation, local representatives, and where stratigic voting is never advantageous." < 1273318885 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i do wonder if, had there not been such a late push from labour, the lib dems would've taken it < 1273318919 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what sort of voting system i would like to see has been on my mind the last couple of days < 1273318935 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the one hand, people voted for national reasons < 1273318942 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the other, some people voted for local reasons < 1273318973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stochastic election system: < 1273318976 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[I propose the following election system for Canada. In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat. < 1273318977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random number generation can be done by having every candidate select a number between 1 and n (the number of votes cast). The selected numbers are summed modulo n, and the result is used to select the winner. < 1273318977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years.]] < 1273318977 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my friends voted conservative over lib dem because of local issues < 1273318983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Results &c: < 1273318986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html < 1273318986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html < 1273318989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html < 1273318996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html < 1273319001 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haahah < 1273319009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: no, I don't think you understand; he is serious < 1273319032 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... FPTP but, in each constituency, the %age vote is the chance that the candidate wins that seat? < 1273319044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually statistically it is perfectly benign and actually gives really good properties such that voting as you really want is the best possible strategy and such, but most people are probably too scared of "randomness" to like it < 1273319059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: yep < 1273319078 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can see many people hating that idea with a passion < 1273319091 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[This is only one example of the results of a stochastic election. Because of the stochastic nature of the election process, actual results may differ. < 1273319092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Canadas election process, it is sometimes advantageous to not vote for ones preferred candidate. The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate. Therefore if the 2006 election were actually using a stochastic election system, people would be allowed to vote for their true preferences. The outcome could be somewhat different than what this simulation illustrates.]] < 1273319101 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Yes; most people do not really understand randomness. < 1273319108 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"why the fuck would i want the prime minister to be decided by a dice roll???" < 1273319117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O'Connor's radical but he's always interesting. < 1273319120 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they miss the point < 1273319123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if only he posted to his blog more. < 1273319124 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want really random < 1273319127 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you use only a few dice < 1273319130 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably 1 < 1273319134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1273319141 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just pull the prime minister out of a hat < 1273319142 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would be like rolling 650 imprefect dice < 1273319145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not his name; the prime minister himself) < 1273319149 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahahah < 1273319158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have to be a very big hat. < 1273319163 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite < 1273319163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's the price we have to pay for democracy < 1273319168 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... no, i like this idea < 1273319179 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you say that this is used in Canada? < 1273319194 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273319199 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooo < 1273319204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[In Canadas election process, it is sometimes advantageous to not vote for ones preferred candidate. The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate. Therefore if the 2008 election were actually using a stochastic election system, people would be allowed to vote for their true preferences. The outcome could be somewhat different than what this simulation illustrates.]] < 1273319209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that Russell O'Connor is Canadian < 1273319212 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah, ok < 1273319213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so obviously he proposes this for Canada < 1273319220 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i see < 1273319230 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, he's progressive < 1273319239 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he simulates the results as if things were stochastic. Although of course his results are not accurate, because it will use tactical votes, which would happen less in a stochastic system (only idiots would do them because they would not help at all) < 1273319254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: He's also an anarchist; I'm not sure how those two things gel together but there you go. < 1273319260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's elect our no government. < 1273319263 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know the one thing this would do if applied here? < 1273319270 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would make no-one safe < 1273319277 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not cabinet members < 1273319281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would backfire horribly as most people wouldn't believe that tactical votes wouldn't work :-D < 1273319290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps we'd get the entire in a few hundred years. < 1273319294 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the Speaker of the house (see results for Buckingham) < 1273319303 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even the party leaders! < 1273319321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT EVEN THE CITIZENS < 1273319335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Dear First Last, < 1273319346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are writing to inform you that you have not been elected in the recent stochastic citizen elections. < 1273319352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodbye. < 1273319359 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yours sincerely, < 1273319361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Robot Evilus" < 1273319363 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i so hope that someone does a simulation based on our election results < 1273319366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1273319382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Ask him to :P he already has the code, and Canada shares our system < 1273319385 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :r.oconnor@cs.ru.nl < 1273319408 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1273319582 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-17-138.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1273319617 0 :yiyus!1242712427@je.je.je JOIN :#esoteric < 1273319645 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273319688 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273319767 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1273319783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Orq. < 1273319858 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise! < 1273319914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ghostly vacuum cleaner! < 1273319972 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did you replace your wiki user page with Gone? ;| < 1273319974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:| < 1273319977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WERE YOU RUNNING AWAY FROM ME < 1273319980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot deny it. < 1273320073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, he silences. < 1273320176 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I was reading the stuff that you said why I was gone. < 1273320182 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/why/while/ < 1273320211 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I could ask you why you have two wiki accounts. < 1273320334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You were gone for an entire day :P < 1273320334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I have more like three or four... < 1273320359 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean this morning. < 1273320407 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when I was your age I only had one wiki account! < 1273320413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a darned whippersnapper. < 1273320416 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A second hand one which smelt funny! < 1273320424 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And didn't quite fit! < 1273320441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I just forget my passwords, or start disliking the names, usually. < 1273320442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I made the first account when I was 12 or 13. < 1273320442 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And had suspicious stains! < 1273320498 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the wiki *really* needs basic stuff like account creation logs. < 1273320498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. < 1273320498 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC it doesn't even have cite. < 1273320520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's done us well since 2005; if we were to change the software, I'd say we should even move off MediaWiki to something simpler. < 1273320522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Considering we use perhaps 30% of its features. < 1273320685 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: newer versions of mediawiki log account creation < 1273320685 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like... 1.15 < 1273320685 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which has been the current stable version for a while) < 1273320685 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can get it on older versions, it just doesn't come by default. < 1273320890 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1273320891 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1273320891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1273320902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does *.net *.split mean? < 1273320908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Net split. < 1273320916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When two servers in the network lose their connection to each other. < 1273320922 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the *.? < 1273320932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just to make it work with the syntax of IRC. < 1273320933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1273320939 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to be (server1 server2). < 1273320942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they are masking that now. < 1273320947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case you don't know: Everyone on IRC is connected to one server in a network. < 1273320950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These are all connected together. < 1273320959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you send a message, it propagates through all the servers, eventually reaching everyone. < 1273320967 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When two servers lose their connection to each other, messages can obviously not pass between them. < 1273320981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the people who your messages reach via the two servers disconnect from your end. < 1273320986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From their end, all of us will have disconnected. < 1273320995 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we're on the better side of the split; they only have three people, we have everyone else. < 1273321004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They should reconnect soon once the split is over. < 1273321207 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273321207 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1273321207 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1273321584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Deewiant. < 1273321766 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the traditional netsplit message shows which servers have split < 1273321789 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many networks these days hide which servers have split off in one way or another < 1273321802 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode does this as of ircd-seven < 1273322077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, I wonder. < 1273322080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a trade secret? < 1273322103 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't want to know. < 1273322167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNN < 1273322184 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can give away information about the network topology < 1273322194 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's what *they* tell you. < 1273322197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: gasp < 1273322199 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can be used by people to attack the network < 1273322235 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you really *don't* want to know what the network topology is. < 1273322246 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1273322274 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Count yourself lucky that you haven't found out. < 1273322441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :07:25:37 here's a nice mnemonic: -a looks at the entities, -e looks at the architectures < 1273322443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1273322722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION comes up with a ridiculous idea. < 1273322748 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it involves the Freenode network topology, just stop. < 1273322752 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For your own sake. < 1273322783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1273322825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:06:20 and what do we learn from this? I think one of the things may be "free market is yet again proved not to work" < 1273322830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the FPGA situation is /anywhere near/ a free market. < 1273322836 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was your ridiculous idea? < 1273322849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SECRET < 1273322855 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah < 1273322858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It involves bunnies, tries, and rape-murder.) < 1273322862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also trees. < 1273322866 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean to write tries. But it involves tries too. < 1273322868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And hash tables. < 1273322881 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The end result is, surprisingly enough, custard. < 1273322889 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A hash table that works on bunnies and trees? < 1273322929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sssh. < 1273322957 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever you do, don't try to use it to find out the Freenode network topology. < 1273323177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:10:27 any linux tools for verilog btw? < 1273323177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:11:08 no free ones that I know of < 1273323178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1273323185 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iverilog < 1273323210 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Command not found is useful. < 1273323237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10:58:18 apparently GSOC gave me a free membership in ACM for a year < 1273323247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :download EVERYTHING < 1273323274 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then give it to me. < 1273323296 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But make sure you don't use anything that tells you the Freenode network topology. < 1273323337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:26:21 So, are there any decent free CASs? < 1273323338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:26:34 I've tried Maxima, but I was wondering. < 1273323338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:26:51 Maxima's pretty much it. < 1273323338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :axiom, too < 1273323343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some misc ones like sage < 1273323344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all suck < 1273323347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pirate mathematica, or w/e < 1273323352 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/e? < 1273323369 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever... < 1273323402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w/e = whatever < 1273325278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273325349 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273325367 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1273325376 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ping pong... < 1273325736 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ponggg < 1273325742 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!ping < 1273325759 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ping < 1273325760 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1273325775 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ping esolangs.org < 1273325776 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1273325803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/ping < 1273325804 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/bin/bash \ echo pong < 1273325819 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`/bin/ping < 1273325820 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273325823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh /usr/bin/ping < 1273325824 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273325826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh /usr/bin/ping 2>&1 < 1273325827 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273325829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh /bin/ping 2>&1 < 1273325831 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273325835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HMM < 1273325837 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh /bin/ping esolangs.org < 1273325837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh /bin/ping sex.com < 1273325838 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273325847 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273325867 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh /usr/bin/ping esolangs.org < 1273325868 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273325875 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`which ping < 1273325876 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/hackenv.14674/bin/ping < 1273325887 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /bin < 1273325888 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ less < 1273325902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /usr/bin < 1273325903 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2to3-2.6 \ X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-curses \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ axi-cache \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug < 1273325933 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /tmp/hackenv.14674/bin < 1273325934 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326171 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'ls /sbin | grep ping < 1273326182 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1273326185 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /sbin | grep ping < 1273326186 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326193 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /bin | grep ping < 1273326194 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326199 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /usr/bin | grep ping < 1273326200 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326202 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /usr/sbin | grep ping < 1273326203 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326210 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`which ping < 1273326211 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping < 1273326232 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`/tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping esolangs.org < 1273326233 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326252 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls -l /tmp/hackenv.15037/bin/ping < 1273326253 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326259 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugger < 1273326267 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1273326268 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . < 1273326282 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's appending the PID to the hackenv. < 1273326296 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must start a new process, so the name changes < 1273326299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo $$ < 1273326300 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$$ < 1273326311 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh -c "echo $$" < 1273326312 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326334 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo 'echo $$' | sh < 1273326335 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'echo $$' | sh < 1273326353 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh -c 'echo hello' < 1273326354 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326366 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo echo < 1273326367 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo < 1273326382 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but I need the $$ env variable. < 1273326432 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1273326440 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga! < 1273326446 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1273326452 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1273326462 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga! < 1273326465 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1273326468 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1273326470 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah < 1273326477 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo $@ < 1273326478 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make up your mind! < 1273326478 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$@ < 1273326509 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo fred > fred < 1273326510 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fred > fred < 1273326518 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`w < 1273326520 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12:48:15 up 69 days, 7:23, 0 users, load average: 0.17, 0.11, 0.03 \ USER TTY FROM LOGIN@ IDLE JCPU PCPU WHAT < 1273326543 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1273326594 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beh < 1273326610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of most unacceptable Geoff'ry; < 1273326651 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What commands let you write directly to files from the command line? < 1273326671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sh echo FUCK >fuckness < 1273326672 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat fuckness < 1273326676 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326681 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it has to be somewhere special to persist. < 1273326682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1273326683 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.15837 \ wunderbar_emporium \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz \ wunderbar_emporium-3.tgz.1 < 1273326690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1273326690 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pwd < 1273326692 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/hackenv.15880 < 1273326695 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`pwd < 1273326696 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/tmp/hackenv.15919 < 1273326702 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not persistent/ < 1273326706 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls .. < 1273326707 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackenv.15966 < 1273326730 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The directory must be deleted between each run. < 1273326738 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls bin < 1273326740 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram < 1273326752 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/wolfram < 1273326753 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/bin/bash \ WA='http://www24.wolframalpha.com' \ \ dowget() { \ wget -U "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686 (x86_64); en-US; rv:1.9.0.11) Gecko/2009060214 Firefox/3.0.11" "$@" \ return "$?" \ } \ \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Look up what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " < 1273326794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram solve 1/x = x-1 < 1273326802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not really such a good interface. < 1273326805 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And why isn't it working? < 1273326823 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone said that Wolfram changed the interface. < 1273326834 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently that script is against the TOS. < 1273326845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it is. < 1273326850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A shit is not given. < 1273326875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1273326878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alpha fails at that, heh. < 1273326886 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, but it explains why they wouldn't be too concerned with making it possible for a script to use it. < 1273326899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram solve x = 1 + (1/x) < 1273326904 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram solve x^2 = 2 < 1273326921 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273326932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wut. < 1273326954 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like I said, the script doesn't work with Alpha at all. < 1273326971 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1273327101 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :burp < 1273327118 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`esolang < 1273327158 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use: `esolang < 1273327158 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`esolang Lazy K < 1273327158 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lazy K, designed by [6]Ben Rudiak-Gould, is a [7]Turing tarpit based on [8]combinatory logic. It is lazily evaluated and purely functional. \ \ Contents \ \ * [9]1 History \ * [10]2 Instructions \ * [11]3 Input and output \ * [12]4 Lazier \ * [13]5 Hello world \ * [14]6 See also < 1273327457 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1273327457 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1273327457 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1273327624 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273327624 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1273327624 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1273327713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phi = -2 sin(666 degrees) < 1273327713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dun dun DUN < 1273327713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sin! 666! < 1273327717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the devil's ratio. < 1273327738 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc sin 2 < 1273327739 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin(2) = 0.909297427 < 1273327785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc sin 666 < 1273327785 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sin(666) = -0.0176416458 < 1273327785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's in radians < 1273327785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1273327785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc -2 * sin 666 < 1273327785 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-2) * sin(666) = 0.0352832916 < 1273327785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc -2 * sin(666 * 180/pi) < 1273327785 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-2) * sin((666 * 180) / pi) = -1.86752473 < 1273327785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er wait < 1273327785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong way around < 1273327790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`calc -2 * sin(666 * pi/180) < 1273327791 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(-2) * sin((666 * pi) / 180) = 1.61803399 < 1273327812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : = pi/180 < 1273327832 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know! < 1273327960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then why did you do that calculation? < 1273327960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't be bothered to do it¬ < 1273327960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Properly, I mean! < 1273327980 0 :Gracenotes_!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1273328020 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1273328048 0 :Gracenotes_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gracenotes < 1273328182 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1273328243 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :equivalent to sin(3/10 radians) = (1+sqrt(5)/4 < 1273328261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :radians = 1 < 1273328272 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indicating it's radians instead of degrees < 1273328275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps you meant sin_rad(3/10) to distinguish the two functions :P < 1273328295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you take sin = sin_deg usually it makes sense and radians = 180/pi < 1273328299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think anybody does that... < 1273328407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr... we really need a mathematica bot in here, it would be nice. < 1273328984 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone would need to buy or pirate it. < 1273329003 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if Freenode found out, they wouldn't be pleased/ < 1273329128 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can always go with a 'wolfram alpha' bot < 1273329147 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We *had* one of them, but Wolfram broke it. < 1273329165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wolfram Why did you break this bot? < 1273329173 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273329176 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See? < 1273329209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Someone would need to buy or pirate it. < 1273329215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode would not give a shit < 1273329217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's our client, our responsibility < 1273329223 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1273329225 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1273329226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i already have it pirated anyway... although not on this machine < 1273329244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd get it on this machine but I'm on 3G internet and it's ~4GB < 1273329247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1273329251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like 600mb downloading < 1273329256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since it decompresses and downloads stuff) < 1273329259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and stuff) < 1273329262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's more like 1gb < 1273329264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did i say 4 < 1273329284 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dang, mathematica is huge < 1273329289 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Freenode aren't responsible if someone makes an open interface to Mathematica? < 1273329292 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it 1gb -of- < 1273329293 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely not oode? < 1273329310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not code < 1273329311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just random shit < 1273329314 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofl < 1273329316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that's the os x version < 1273329321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think their os x version is their most optimised... < 1273329327 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh haha < 1273329340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think i cached parts of wolfram's data repositories < 1273329341 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Patashu: remember that mathematica is /the/ biggest ball of mud ever conceived of < 1273329450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers getting the non-3g connection to work < 1273329547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica isn't all that hot, really, but it's more reliable than Alpha and has more stuff. < 1273329565 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's better than the free CASes? < 1273329569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1273329571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, by far. < 1273329575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maple is also a good pay CAS. < 1273329576 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, duh. < 1273329584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb to set up my net < 1273329691 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: As for why I didn't do a Mathemabot; our campus licenses are from a limited, shared pool that manages to be sometimes empty; they wouldn't probably be very happy if were to tie one of them to a IRC-bot. Not to mention it might not be quite according to the license terms. < 1273329729 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely Wolfram don't want you giving access to Mathematica from a public channel? < 1273329746 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that sounds possible. < 1273329783 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I doubt they would care that much. < 1273329785 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but would it be permissible if, say < 1273329790 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked you to do a calculation on mathematica for me? < 1273329799 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1273329816 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The student license of Mathematica is pretty reasonably priced, anyhow. It's just that you're supposed to upgrade it to real license (with a nice discount) when studies end. < 1273329867 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1273330088 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What's the difference between the versions? < 1273331084 0 :alise!~alise@212.183.140.36 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273331090 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, alise. < 1273331094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :``O LORDY ON HIGH-- < 1273331095 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273331102 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pirated Mathematica yet? < 1273331109 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :“O LORDY ON HIGH-- < 1273331114 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird. < 1273331122 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'' I've not. < 1273331125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Connection is not working. < 1273331127 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still 3G. < 1273331131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Download 600mb via 3G, I think not. < 1273331154 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pondered it. < 1273331216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. < 1273331219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you on Linux? < 1273331226 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GUI on Linux is very, very bad and laggy. < 1273331256 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a command-line? < 1273331276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; but you lose a lot of the shiny-pretties that are partly the reason to use Mathematica, and also it's harder to read the output. < 1273331282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical notation is not very well textised. < 1273331296 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1273331328 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I have no practical options other than Linux. < 1273331356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe consider Maple? I haven't used it but it doesn't seem too bad. < 1273331396 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm scared that Peter Mandelson will have me sniped. < 1273331406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The website is significantly more cheesy though. < 1273331502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The nice things about Mathematica over Alpha are (a) more supported functions and the like, (b) far less ambiguous syntax, and (c) you can create definitions and use them later. < 1273331510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which allows a far wider exploration of theoretical stuffs. < 1273331527 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder... < 1273331564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You wonder what? < 1273331574 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shh! < 1273331580 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering! < 1273331686 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it looks like Alpha can't do lambda calculus. < 1273331690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1273331717 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that Mathematica can. < 1273331731 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's probably applicative-order. < 1273331968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually you can do it however you want. < 1273331974 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1273331977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica is a symbolic language; it's just tree-writing, so everything is inspectable. < 1273331980 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of like quoting /everything/ in Lisp. < 1273332010 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you'd have to write your own evaluators? < 1273332305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure... but that's really easy. < 1273332329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in Mathematica, you do derivatives with e.g. D[x^2, x]. < 1273332329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D is just a normal function -- well, a built-in, but still -- < 1273332331 0 :Leonidas_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Leonidas < 1273332343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it takes "symbolic" arguments like that. < 1273332380 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273332795 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-140-214.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273333296 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Are you on Linux? < 1273333306 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1273333319 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which? < 1273333338 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`banner hi < 1273333340 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273333345 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1273333349 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls bin < 1273333350 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram < 1273333355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Ubuntu 9.04(!) atm. < 1273333358 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fortune < 1273333359 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be considered successful, a woman must be much better at her job \ than a man would have to be. Fortunately, this isn't difficult. < 1273333366 0 :Patashu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 < 1273333366 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fortune < 1273333367 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This must be morning. I never could get the hang of mornings. < 1273333368 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fortune < 1273333370 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paul's Law: \ In America, it's not how much an item costs, it's how much you save. < 1273333372 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`sayhi < 1273333372 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`fortune < 1273333373 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi, all < 1273333374 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A good reputation is more valuable than money. \ -- Publilius Syrus < 1273333382 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I'm done. < 1273333391 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unstr huh < 1273333392 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273333402 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`esolang < 1273333403 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use: `esolang < 1273333407 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`esolang befunge < 1273333407 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`asdfgbabble < 1273333409 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge is a two-dimensional [6]esoteric programming language invented in 1993 by [7]Chris Pressey with the goal of being as difficult to compile as possible. \ \ Contents \ \ * [8]1 History \ * [9]2 Etymology \ * [10]3 Language overview \ * [11]4 Instructions \ * [12]5 Computational < 1273333409 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1273333645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tex + exec ends up as a very strange-looking word: texexec < 1273333661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and yes, that exists in /usr/bin for me) < 1273333802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Teh sex, eck. < 1273334278 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tex-x-x < 1273334295 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"now with more x!" < 1273334305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XXX, even. < 1273334311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XXX hot barely legal TeX implementations. < 1273334788 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1273335098 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is a LOLCODE interpreter I wrote as a project for my Computer Programming class." ... wow, somebody used it in school ^_^ < 1273335106 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.assembla.com/code/iqpk/subversion/nodes/islip < 1273335121 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :license: WTFPL ;-) < 1273335162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the proper way to address an MP is (this was asked a while ago iirc) < 1273335174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Right Honourable First Last MP < 1273335189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Rt. Hon. First Last MP for short should do. < 1273335218 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MP? < 1273335241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Member of Parliament. < 1273335262 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I presume "Yo, bonesmoker!" ain't kosher? ;-) < 1273335306 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" 'Ey, Smeghead, so how it's goin', parlamentin' 'n stuff?" < 1273335411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if you really wanted to be formal in a way nobody else is, you would say < 1273335422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Right Honourable Nick Clegg, Member of Parliament < 1273335541 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1273335562 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Right Honourable Oer Jan, Member of Esotericment < 1273335564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1273335575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rjan Johansomething < 1273335582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why are there all these people with "wikipedia" in their hot names? < 1273335585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise! < 1273335595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my name-memorising & norwegtongue-spelling is not so good. < 1273335608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can never spell Norwegian. I always type Norweigan. < 1273335623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's because of masked hostnames < 1273335632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somebody's in #wikipedia, asks an ircop "hey MASK ME" and voila wikipedia/ < 1273335639 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: those are "cloaks" i believe, you can register one if you don't want people to see your IP. < 1273335688 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273335701 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the late lamented. < 1273335706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you almost had it correct. just remember that it's -sen in norwegian and danish, but -son in swedish. mostly. < 1273335734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Johansen, then. < 1273335748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's pronounced yohan yohansen, I hope < 1273335752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes -sson in swedish, but never -ssen in the others < 1273335753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know your first name is vaguely pronounced yohan < 1273335758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just hope that Johan is pronounced ~yohan too < 1273335774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it is, but they are not pronounced the same ;D < 1273335804 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlett_Johansson < 1273335822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is apparently a current norwegian historic film about someone literally named yohan. < 1273335857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind if I call you double-Y for long? < 1273335863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, double y, how's it hanginnnnnnnnn < 1273335865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1273335882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first name does _not_ start with y, dammit. < 1273335901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although incidentally there is a lot of dialect variation between y and ø in norwegian < 1273335903 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273335904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Teh sex, eck. <-- not what I meant XD < 1273335921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: fine then, double- < 1273335926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double- seven < 1273335945 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Johansson < 1273335952 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's only one Ø. < 1273335959 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you appeared in an episode of the Simpsons, oerjan, as a new member of the Simpsons family, you'd be .J. Simpson < 1273335961 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true story. < 1273335963 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"American-born Canadian actor" ... sounds weird < 1273335963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : there is apparently a current norwegian historic film about someone literally named yohan. <-- is that common? < 1273335974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: obviously not, or it wouldn't be notable < 1273335980 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, Yrjan is an actual norwegian name. very rare though, only 40 persons or so http://www.norskenavn.no/navn.php?id=2491 < 1273335997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1273336037 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you will sometimes find people defying the -sen/-son distinction by actually descending from the other country, naturally < 1273336047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yran < 1273336054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOES THAT WORK < 1273336054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, I can only think of one Swedish name starting with y, and it may very well be "imported" from some other language. < 1273336073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that doesn't mean there doesn't exist other ones) < 1273336074 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y of course < 1273336114 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: According to WP ø is pronounced as someone with a non-rhotic English accent would say "ir". < 1273336131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, isn't it pronounced mostly like ö? < 1273336135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Swedish ö that is) < 1273336150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1273336164 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to WP, yes. < 1273336177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, btw, which English accents are non-rhotic? < 1273336182 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except ö is long. < 1273336186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yohan is so rare that that website doesn't have it. "Grunnen er at det er 3 eller færre som har dette som første fornavn i Norge, og disse er derfor ikke tatt med i navnelistene som er mottatt fra Statistisk sentralbyrå av personvernhensyn." < 1273336187 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k k k! < 1273336212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. it's so rare it would be a privacy violation to include it. < 1273336233 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Most of England, I think Wales, Australia and NZ. < 1273336239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273336243 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1273336244 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no rarer than Dromhall (or whatever it was) ;-) < 1273336245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, most except US then? < 1273336251 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yngvar, yngve, those aren't swedish names? < 1273336259 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yngwie, yes ... famous guitarist < 1273336260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, okay, three then < 1273336287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wait two < 1273336294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it is ingvar and ungve < 1273336295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1273336297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yngve* < 1273336303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yngvar I never seen < 1273336325 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to reboot < 1273336330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. it exists in norwegian. Yngvar Numme is a comedian. < 1273336331 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273336335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, as for the one I originally thought of, googling indicates it is French in origin < 1273336343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Ingvar and Ingvard (my father's name) < 1273336361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it was "Yvonne", which is not very common, but neither very rare) < 1273336368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't you be rjan Ingvardsen then :D < 1273336368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and that is a female name) < 1273336369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shot < 1273336372 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yngvar == Yvonne ????? < 1273336376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, no < 1273336396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yvonne yeah that's probably french < 1273336398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yvonne was the one I thought of originally when I said: hm, I can only think of one Swedish name starting with y, and it may very well be "imported" from some other language. < 1273336410 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, Yvonne is french, same as Yves < 1273336424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, it is not completely uncommon in Sweden though < 1273336428 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuri (probably Russian) < 1273336429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while yves is < 1273336448 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yoda :-P < 1273336456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw, yngve sounds archaic to me < 1273336467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well, who knows what language that comes from < 1273336489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish Mathematica was... small. < 1273336501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh? In what sense? < 1273336503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: chances are yohan will pick up now though, with the movie < 1273336503 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yvette, another French name < 1273336506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Bits. < 1273336511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what movie? < 1273336518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You cannot easily pirate some hundreds of megabytes on a 3G connection. < 1273336524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, in memory usage while running or? < 1273336524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273336544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but didn't you have it before too? < 1273336547 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: norwegian -sen names aren't patronymicons any longer, only the icelandic do that afaik < 1273336555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: on another machine, alas. < 1273336557 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION slaps alise with a trut < 1273336559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the laptop) < 1273336562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah < 1273336569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, patronymicons? < 1273336578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Yohan Barnevandreren" is a new norwegian movie this year. i haven't seen it. < 1273336581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273336592 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: surnames based on father's first name < 1273336597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, okay right < 1273336607 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as -sen and -son originally were < 1273336615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that raises another question: how the hell can that concept be named "patronymicons" < 1273336629 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Greek < 1273336633 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"patronymicons" is a really strange thing for, well, anything at all < 1273336643 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :la:pater = father, gr:onyma = name < 1273336647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/strange thing/strange name/ < 1273336651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and the icons? < 1273336652 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nym = name (Greek) < 1273336653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible gr:pater = father too < 1273336661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, gr? < 1273336666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh greek < 1273336666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah patriarchy ~~ patro < 1273336682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pseudonym ~~ nym < 1273336688 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eponym < 1273336688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay so the "pateronym" bit makes sense, the "icons" bit does not < 1273336696 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-icon = -ic-on where -ic is like in electric and -on is the neuter nominative ending in greek < 1273336697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ic ~~ as in "epic" < 1273336700 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forget "icons", that's a bogus ending anyways < 1273336709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ons ~~ set, collection, sort of thing? < 1273336713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a really bad description, but < 1273336717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't require any knowledge of latin or greek :P < 1273336718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, does -ic in electric have some special meaning? < 1273336726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electric, epic < 1273336730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-satisfying-property < 1273336731 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never learned (ancient) Greek, but I think "on" is normal subject ending and "os" is plural (or such) < 1273336737 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's just a greek way to turn a noun into an adjective < 1273336738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a name is patronymic < 1273336740 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1273336741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah I see < 1273336744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1273336746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a thing is patronymic < 1273336750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is a name that descends from fathers < 1273336756 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pyrrhic, classic, technique, etc. < 1273336759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ons -- the set of all things that are patronymic < 1273336761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :patronymicons < 1273336764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so electricity is noun -> adjective -> noun? < 1273336764 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: like -lig in no/sw < 1273336776 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electr < 1273336789 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :television -> Greek-based word < 1273336791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah greek electric + lating -itas < 1273336799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, eh? removing -lig from the first three words with that ending that I thought of returned nonsense < 1273336821 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: barnlig for example? < 1273336837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/three/two/ <-- weird typo < 1273336840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "förnulig" "gullig" < 1273336851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gives nonsene if you remove the "-lig" < 1273336867 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well swedish may have mangled things historically, like every other language < 1273336873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also barnlig must be Norwegian only? Is it perhaps the same as sv:barnslig < 1273336879 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that guld + -lig or something? < 1273336890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, gullig ~ cute < 1273336893 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually it's barnslig in norwegian too < 1273336911 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sounds like it could come from gul[dl] < 1273336917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm perhaps < 1273336939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except barnlig is sometimes used as a more positive version i think < 1273336950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, eh? < 1273336963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :barnslig has the connotation of immature, while barnlig is more child-like < 1273336973 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different connotations < 1273336983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273336988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and barnlig doesn't exist in Swedish < 1273336990 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think barnlig is so common though < 1273336998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes barnslig means immature < 1273337012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less < 1273337018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw how would you translate förnurlig to English? < 1273337022 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mre r less < 1273337045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, why are big-operator notations so hard to translate into ASCII? < 1273337070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, you know, to someone who actually know a language where that letter exists and read it like it is supposed to be pronounced, that ends up very strange. < 1273337083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I quite like "∑(k=m, n) x" for $\sum_{k=m}^n x$. < 1273337095 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no stranger than some other esoteric languages lk < 1273337119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, but try reading that aloud as it should be pronounced :P < 1273337134 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me, it's all pronounced the same ;-) < 1273337138 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghti < 1273337145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, didn't wikipedia tell you how < 1273337152 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n, I didn't check < 1273337153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said something like something in some accents < 1273337168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1273337170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not you < 1273337170 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prbably nt me < 1273337171 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: -on in greek has nothing with sets to do, it's just a case/gender ending. < 1273337175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was oerjan: According to WP ø is pronounced as someone with a non-rhotic English accent would say "ir". < 1273337178 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273337181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, but now you know too < 1273337188 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1273337203 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still can't understand how to pronounce Ejdffakasdkjfasdfalkv < 1273337204 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273337218 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1273337218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what? < 1273337226 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the vlcan < 1273337236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh stop those ø :( < 1273337240 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, sorry < 1273337244 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eyjafjallajökull < 1273337247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, right < 1273337252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and I have no clue either < 1273337259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Islandic is rather.... special < 1273337260 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, can't be bothered to memorize the spelling of such an insane name < 1273337270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: btw gr:electron = amber (also i'm responding to old messages i know) < 1273337271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pronounced Ey ya falla joke ull, obviously! < 1273337273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *Icelandic < 1273337288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Eyjafjallaj%C3%B6kull-bjarmason.ogg < 1273337301 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the .ogg on Wikipedia seemed to ignore the last "ull" part < 1273337311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sorry, en:iceland = sv:island, en:island = sv:ö < 1273337320 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ehv-ja-jalv-kvik" (if I remember correctly, which isn't likely) < 1273337323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, this causes some confusion sometimes < 1273337330 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :islenska < 1273337352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, part of that volcano name makes sense for me, I can roughly split it as a concatenation of at least three parts. < 1273337362 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only "hard" part about pronouncing that is knowing that ll in Icelandic is [tl] < 1273337367 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273337367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :en:island = sv: < 1273337371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How often do you guys need to talk about islands? < 1273337376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, *s. < 1273337379 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that j is [j] I suppose, if you're English < 1273337381 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :en:river = sv:å < 1273337386 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also norwegian < 1273337387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, haha, < 1273337393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, seriously :P < 1273337399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we likes our geography short, you see < 1273337402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also what is ös? < 1273337409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Islands. < 1273337410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1273337420 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :insula [latin] < 1273337426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no, it is a verb meaning something I don't know the English word for < 1273337434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that would be öar or something. øyer in norwegian. < 1273337437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you get water *inside* a boat, you need to use that verb < 1273337442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes it is öar < 1273337463 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bail? < 1273337481 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oar as in boat stick thingy? < 1273337489 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Vi vivas! < 1273337490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw about that volcano Eyja-fjalla-jökull I think. the middle part looks similar to Swedish "fjäll", which is not the same as a mountain (sv:berg) but I think it translates to en:mountain anyway < 1273337496 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: The ¨ matters, you know :-P < 1273337499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it is to move the water out of the boat < 1273337500 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: the surprising thing about eyjafjallajökull pronunciation (for a norwegian) is that the ll's are more like dl < 1273337512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, not by a pump, but by hand < 1273337518 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That would be "bail", then. < 1273337544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah. Then the English phrase "bail out" makes no sense < 1273337546 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: samideano? < 1273337574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, also you can ösa without a boat being involved. Say, to fill a bucket or whatever., < 1273337575 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Words can have more than one meaning (and phrases moreso) < 1273337576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,// < 1273337579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1273337584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last comma only ;P < 1273337592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1273337593 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,/,$/ < 1273337606 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deewiant, wind != wind, bow != bow < 1273337610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, yes quite, I was just too lazy to fix the sed line < 1273337669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about the first part? eyja? < 1273337682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I can't figure out how to pronounce yj < 1273337683 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's islands' iirc < 1273337711 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "y"-voiced "sh"? < 1273337719 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: [Ij] < 1273337723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well from the clips i've heard, it sounds like they're just prolonging the e and then passing to j < 1273337723 0 :bsmntbombdood!~gavin@97-118-202-110.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273337724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm... < 1273337751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah that was much more helpful than what Phantom_Hoover and Deewiant said. < 1273337766 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover was wrong :-P < 1273337775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because I suck at IPA and also couldn't figure out what the heck ""y"-voiced "sh"" was) < 1273337794 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voiced-"sh" presumably meant the English j sound < 1273337798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273337815 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that was a wild guess. < 1273337840 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And voiced-"sh" is the French j sound. < 1273337847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw that thing about ll, does that apply to both the first and the second ll? < 1273337848 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rot13 (probably easier to pronounce, heh): rlwnswnyynwbxhyy < 1273337850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the last -ll makes sense when you know it's unvoiced so the actual l part is almost inaudible. or so i read. < 1273337852 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll just paste the IPA from Wikipedia so we can stop guessing: [ˈɛɪjaˌfjatlaˌjœkʏtl] < 1273337872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, not in that case no < 1273337881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a Dane could most likely manage it < 1273337889 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, it applies to all ll's in Icelandic < 1273337896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273337909 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eyjafjallajokull ??? "I, ya, fall a joke all" ??? < 1273337917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and do you find eyjafjallajökull easy to pronounce? < 1273337918 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except maybe some loanwords < 1273337919 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the joke's on us, it's not real, we've been had! < 1273337920 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes < 1273337923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's trivial < 1273337933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, Finns... < 1273337956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: everyone knows it's just a giant insurance scam to get away from all that debt < 1273337983 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't trust a language without "c" or "z" ;-) < 1273338005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw it doesn't make much sense to me that the Icelandic people should have to pay that. Shouldn't it really be that bank that had to pay it < 1273338006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :poles are so trustable < 1273338007 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: "eyafyatlayocutel" would be my initial attempt at Englishification < 1273338041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eyjafjallajkull is really just a plot by the Icelandic people to avoid paying anything. < 1273338053 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They will pepper all the discussions about paying it back with that word, so as to avoid anyone pronouncing it. < 1273338056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, discussions will collapse. < 1273338056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voiced consonants are probably *really* easy to grasp for Japanese speakers... < 1273338058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a genius. < 1273338077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"sh" and "j", for instance, are differentiated in their writing system by a voicing mark. < 1273338089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh btw how did the UK election work out? Saw something in the paper today about no singly party being able to rule alone. < 1273338096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :゛<- Stick that on a kana, and now it's voiced! < 1273338125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes; the Conservatives got more seats than anyone else, but not enough to form a government. < 1273338127 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every kana one voice < 1273338131 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's hungtastic. < 1273338136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So both the Tories (Conservatives) and Labour are scrambling to make a deal with the Liberal Democrats. < 1273338146 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :゜<- stick that on a kana, and it's incorrect in general < 1273338155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Liberal Democrats really want election reform and also for Brown to resign if Labour, so basically they're going to pound both parties in the ass to get what they want. < 1273338155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i also read that labour + lib dems don't have a majority in common < 1273338164 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, if they don't co-operate with the lib dems, they won't get any power. < 1273338168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: True. < 1273338172 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No; that's why you pile in a bunch of other random parties with them. < 1273338187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :か゜I have no idea how to pronounce that. < 1273338192 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random parties that never matter otherwise :) < 1273338203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but can Labour + the liberal democrats rule alone? And what about minor other ones. Saw something about that in the statistics in the paper. A few seats to small parties < 1273338206 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :か゚ < 1273338217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly wales and North Ireland iirc < 1273338218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, they cannot rule alone. That is why they would go to a bunch of random tiny parties. < 1273338219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it also means the conservatives have more options than labour in theory, right? < 1273338223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way they can get a government. < 1273338223 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/???. (oh goody) < 1273338224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes. < 1273338238 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looked fine when I cut/pasted it < 1273338242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the Lib Dems I think would rather ally with the Tories: people really hate Labour, so people won't really like the Lib Dems if they ally with Labour. < 1273338251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the Tories and the Lib Dems are basically complete opposites... < 1273338253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm, could all those small parties + the conservatives form a government? < 1273338256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the Lib Dems have a lot of power right now. < 1273338258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and skip on the lib dems < 1273338264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conservatives, bnp and ukip, ftw! >;D < 1273338270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Most of the little parties involved are left-wing. < 1273338273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Nuff said. < 1273338273 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1273338275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah good < 1273338293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I really want to see UK's election system changed to a saner one. < 1273338307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But, if both Labour and the Conservatives fail to make a deal with the Lib Dems, the Conservatives will rule as a minority government until the whole country collapses from sheer indecision. < 1273338315 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: how many small parties _are_ there? i only know of ukip and bnp < 1273338321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: tons < 1273338325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which definitely don't sound left to me < 1273338335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, true, that is an issue, but what are the rules for forming a minority government? < 1273338336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you have heard of the greens (though they barely exist and would be of ~no use) < 1273338344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's a bunch of scotland/ireland/wales specific left-wing parties < 1273338345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course i only know of them because they're notorious, probably < 1273338346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc < 1273338357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: um there aren't any I think < 1273338370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :conservatives have more seats than anyone else, but everyone else still has a bunch of power, no specific government, Q.E.D. < 1273338378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I dunno, perhaps as a way of differentiating /ŋ/ and /g/? < 1273338395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug < 1273338418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah, but what about prime minister post and such, doesn't the parliament have to vote about that or such? < 1273338437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not actually sure about minority governments. < 1273338456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and presumably that would need at least 50% yes votes or such (that tends to be the point of voting...) < 1273338474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About electoral reform, something I wrote: < 1273338476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1273338477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, a stochastic voting system (http://r6.ca/blog/20040603T005300Z.html) would have avoided this problem entirely. Some simulated Canadian elections with this system: < 1273338477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2004 (http://r6.ca/blog/20060122T172700Z.html) < 1273338477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006: predictions (http://r6.ca/blog/20060125T200600Z.html), results (http://r6.ca/blog/20060217T201200Z.html) < 1273338479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2008: predictions (http://r6.ca/blog/20081016T174811Z.html), results (http://r6.ca/blog/20081107T061447Z.html) < 1273338481 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ejajafjovkajlfasfl < 1273338483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that these results are not really accurate, because they use people's tactical votes that were meant to be used on the current system. In an actual stochastic election system, tactical voting would be voting for who you really want, so the votes and thus the results would differ. < 1273338486 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]] < 1273338489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, "simulated elections"? < 1273338502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Use the real votes, calculate the outcome with the stochastic system. < 1273338505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273338513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so data from previous elections < 1273338521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current elections, usually, but yes < 1273338524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As I say in the last paragraph, this isn't accurate as people shouldn't "tactically vote" under a stochastic system < 1273338535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as it's useless; the most rational policy is to vote for your preferred party) < 1273338546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, does canada use such a stochastic system? < 1273338552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. It's a bit radical. < 1273338556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273338566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the problem is that most people Do Not Understand Statistics, and thus would see "random candidate with strict distribution" as "OH MY GOD YOU ARE SELECTING OUR PRIME MINISTER WITH A /DICE ROLL/!?!?!?!?!" < 1273338582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the brits don't know how to do minority governments, they just panic >:) < 1273338609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate." < 1273338614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Judging from what I've seen, the Brits don't know how to do efficient government. < 1273338618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm, why use randomness really, what not a deterministic proportional system? < 1273338628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because "The stochastic election system is the only system in which it always best to vote for your preferred candidate." < 1273338630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is mathematical fact < 1273338631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Massive, lumbering monsters, however? They've got that down to an art. < 1273338635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh? < 1273338653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other desirable properties: no "major flips" due to a small number of votes < 1273338668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so there is proof that there can not be any other system that allows that property? < 1273338670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's the only system where every vote truly /does/ count < 1273338675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, though I don't know it < 1273338679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273338684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but certainly no system anyone else has thought of has this property < 1273338696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the randomness /really/ doesn't matter, as O'Connor says, < 1273338700 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And yes, I think it is fair for the Marxist-Leninist Party to get one seat in Parliament once every 100 years." < 1273338711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an extremely fringe party only gets a /single/ seat, and even then only once every 100 years, because of the randomness < 1273338722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not really "unreliable" or "unpredictable" or "unsafe" in the slightest. < 1273338742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, this is all theory; until the populace is more intelligent, people will read all this and still think "OMG DICE ROLL". < 1273338746 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: People are heavily worried about the National Socialist Party getting all the seats. < 1273338755 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... For instance. < 1273338786 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. And you realise that statistically, it's more likely that, say, giant pigs come down from the sky, tell us that they're manifestations of God, and elaborate unto us a mind-virus that causes us all to actually vote for the Nazis willingly? < 1273338802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do; but People (who are, as a rule, a stupid collective) don't. < 1273338805 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I* am well aware of this. < 1273338817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The average person knows fuck-all about statistics. < 1273338836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what about a modified variant that kept it within, say, 20% (fudge factor here, this number is a complete guesstimate) from the result you would have got from a proportional system? < 1273338848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Precisely. < 1273338850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Pointless. < 1273338852 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Utterly pointless. < 1273338858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well sure, but it would calm people down < 1273338859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Randomness Does Not Work Like That. < 1273338864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- and besides, it would just bring back injustice. < 1273338866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Might as well just use a proportional system. < 1273338871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it would make tactical voting WORK again. < 1273338875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is the whole bad point. < 1273338925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pick the number so that the system still work (really improbable that tactical voting would affect anything) but still small enough that the 100% for BNP wouldn't happen < 1273338938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you're talking nonsense < 1273338941 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just won't work like that < 1273338944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, okay < 1273338947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the results can be significantly different from /every/ other voting process < 1273338952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the whole point < 1273338993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so how well does it reflect what people actually voted? If say, 50% voted for party A, will party A end up with roughly 50% of the seats? < 1273339014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1273339029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The definition is /really simple/: < 1273339032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat." < 1273339042 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's self-evident from the definition that 50% of votes ~> 50% of seats. < 1273339049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"riding"? < 1273339073 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i take it it is roughly equivalent to picking a random voter for each seat, and taking their candidate < 1273339097 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273339098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273339106 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a candidate from their selected party < 1273339125 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273339132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: riding is like constituency, I think? < 1273339140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1273339143 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm this is still with british ridings, right < 1273339144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electoral district/constituency < 1273339187 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: iiuc, with ridings, it would have one major flaw: there would be no way to ensure the party leaders were elected < 1273339194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I thought of a fair system, however you can only vote for parties, not for individual people. I can't see how tactical voting would work in that system. < 1273339196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could surely cause problems < 1273339203 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm? I don't see how < 1273339217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, tell us the system then, so we can tell you its flaws. < 1273339254 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: say if the conservatives want to be nearly sure cameron is elected. assuming no riding has > 90% conservative voters, they _cannot_ be sure he doesn't get thrown out < 1273339278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hmm < 1273339287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure I fully understand, but - isn't it a /good thing/ to stop parties running on cults of personality? < 1273339292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We are not MEANT to have a Presidential system! < 1273339302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well i guess _some_ might consider it a good thing < 1273339305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pollution in our political climate, this focus on the leaders < 1273339315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you mean like everyone in UK systems until recently? < 1273339332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well you vote for the party you want, that is all there is to the voting, no "preferred candidate" or such. Then the votes are counted across the entire country (no "one winner per sector" or such stupid things like the US have), then each party get a proportional number of seats based on the result. Using round to nearest if a seat would end up with 58% of one party and the rest from another. < 1273339337 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273339347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I can't see the flaw in this rather simple system. There might be one < 1273339352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if you say so, i don't know that much about UK pol. history < 1273339382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you would ideally like party P1 to be elected, but P1 does not get many votes usually. there are two main parties, P2 and P3; P2 is abhorrent, P3 is too but slightly less so. you really want to keep P2 out, even though P1 is your favourite, so you vote for P3. < 1273339388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what tactical voting means. < 1273339420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, how would that work, if I cast the vote for P1 instead it wouldn't be to advantage for P2, would it? < 1273339429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it would < 1273339432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1273339441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine P2=50, P3=50 apart from your vote < 1273339444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and P1=1 < 1273339449 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cast vote for P1, < 1273339449 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i believe israel uses a system close to that < 1273339450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay I see < 1273339453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P1=2, P2=50, P3=50 < 1273339456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cast vote for P3, < 1273339461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P1=1, P2=50, P3=51 < 1273339476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :voting for P3 is better if you really don't want P2 to get in < 1273339476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so new idea instead of round to nearest: time share on that seat based on the votes for it XD < 1273339477 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1273339482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wat XD < 1273339515 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate gidd det da < 1273339518 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bother it when < 1273339520 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273339532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, say, you get one seat that would be 60% party A, 40% party B. with round to nearest it would go to party A, but with time share it would be party A 60% of the time, and party B 40% of the time < 1273339563 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Au au vondt vondt, det svir så utrolig lenge. < 1273339565 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Au au pain hurts, it stings so incredibly long. < 1273339575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think one could do stochastic voting in a proportional system as well, would also solve the leader problem i mentioned (assuming one thinks it is a problem) < 1273339579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, perhaps it should adjust for when the votes in the parliament are held, so make it 60%/40% of the votes cast instead < 1273339595 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I would just have a 60% chance of giving it to party A and a 40% chance of giving it to party B. < 1273339636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, when was the leader problem mentioned? < 1273339658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there < 1273339659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1273339668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't see how that is a problem < 1273339687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, doing it per sector is completely stupid for *any* system < 1273339690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1273339694 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: parties might consider it a problem if their "top people" don't get into parliament < 1273339703 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1273339705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm okay < 1273339724 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Venstre managed so last year in norway < 1273339731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan never said doing it per sector is stupid < 1273339750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/951548.txt?key=fim9ynr9xvnvulb6inula ;; Move over, ML, I've just invented a ridiculously abstract meta-language. < 1273339767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well this stochastic system wouldn't use ridings/sectors right? < 1273339772 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it was implied by my leader quibble, really < 1273339779 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In each riding, ballots cast are counted. A random candidate is selected with a distribution proportional to the number of votes for each candidate. The selected candidate wins the seat." < 1273339785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you should read every word of that sentence. < 1273339791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273339809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem with not-per-ridings is < 1273339816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :per-ridings means that in a stochastic system < 1273339826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everybody gets a number of seats ~= the portion of the popular vote < 1273339827 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is < 1273339832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they get POWER PROPORTIONAL to their votes < 1273339835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this happened to Venstre because when a norwegian party gets sufficiently small, their outcome essentially _does_ dissolve into separate ridings < 1273339841 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't have ridings and just have one-party-rules-with-all-their-might, < 1273339850 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it's useless < 1273339853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because one wins and the rest don't < 1273339858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if you mean < 1273339862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do it without ridings but still have seats < 1273339862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(no smoothing out candidates for < 4% votes nationally) < 1273339865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then what do the seats correspond to? < 1273339870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many should there be? Why? < 1273339871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ridings are a bad idea because if you live in an area where, say, 90% of the people prefer party A but you prefer party B, and over the whole country there are many areas with that distribution that means party B will be underrepresented. < 1273339877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically this system eliminates the MEANING of constitutencies < 1273339882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but keeps them just to give an arbitrary total < 1273339899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh, that is not how the stochastic system works < 1273339907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how to explain BUT I'M SURE OERJAN CAN < 1273339939 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: "gidd det da" sounds strange, but means roughly "bother with it then" < 1273339942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, isn't that what ridings mean though? < 1273339951 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not think so. < 1273339965 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Let's say it's 51% for 1 party, 49% for another party in *most* areas. About 51% of the seats will go to one party, and 49% to the other. < 1273339979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the US election system has the issue I mentioned. < 1273339988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the us election system does not use ridings < 1273339991 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Change the percentages, and it still works like that. < 1273339992 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, it's in response to "Brannsår! :d digg!", if that helps. < 1273340005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: also "vondt vondt" is more like an outburst, like "ooh the pain" < 1273340009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm? < 1273340025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do you mean that pikhq the distribution is calculated across the whole country? < 1273340034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If 90% of the people nation-wide prefer a party, about 90% of the seats will go to them. < 1273340040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just how the odds work out. < 1273340057 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the "digg!" is all about there. < 1273340106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, right, as long as it doesn't end up like in US where that property does not hold true I'm okay with it < 1273340119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ugh that needed some commas) < 1273340131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, don't worry, it holds in a stochastic riding system. < 1273340146 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(presuming that you have some relation between population of a subdivision and that subdivision's representation. The Senate on this system would be *royally* fucked up still.) < 1273340150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about the current UK system, it has that problem too doesn't it? < 1273340177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :current UK and Canada system < 1273340186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's call it the Westminster system for clarity < 1273340191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure it does < 1273340196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1273340200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not proportional in any way < 1273340202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you are right < 1273340204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: digg is essentially an english borrowing < 1273340205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah yes, each area need to have equal number of people in it if they have equal weight < 1273340205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stochastic elections are though < 1273340228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"dig it" < 1273340232 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean in English? :P < 1273340264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: to like something? < 1273340264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps it is now outdated slang in English < 1273340268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be < 1273340272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As it is, in the US it is *perfectly* possible to have 5 people electing their own senator. < 1273340279 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1273340288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that term exists in Swedish too, I would never use it though < 1273340300 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i sort of thought digg was named after it, although it _could_ be about digging up stuff, i guess < 1273340300 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is moderately outdated slang in English, yes. < 1273340310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the website) < 1273340317 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digg is probably named after it. < 1273340326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds outdated in Swedish too < 1273340326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah digg is named after dig it YOOOO < 1273340335 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273340403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: as i see it the whole point of a stochastic system would be to allow national representation to be approximately based on total votes _despite_ having separate ridings < 1273340492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i quite expect that the path of borrowing went english -> swedish -> norwegian < 1273340563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh? heh < 1273340584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and why would you want to have separate ridings? < 1273340587 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i believe quite a lot of last century norwegian slang came via swedish < 1273340590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see the point of it < 1273340608 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: very _local_ representation, you get to elect someone from your local district < 1273340625 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any way for a web page to communicate with its iframes? < 1273340674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least that's the thing i lately keep seeing as one major _advantage_ of the british system (that and the usual "some party has absolute majority and can govern efficiently") < 1273340682 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*keep reading about < 1273340703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm okay, what about the Swedish election system then? iirc it rather complicated, something like proportional per party across the whole country, then to select the actual persons to fill those places it is based on where a party got most votes or some such < 1273340745 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i guess that's similar to the norwegian one. in which case it is _somewhat_ local, but only on a county (län/fylke) basis? < 1273340770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't remember which size of the district is used < 1273340859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden says "Seats in the various legislative bodies are allocated amongst the Swedish political parties proportionally using a modified form of the Sainte-Laguë method. This modification creates a systematic preference in the mathematics behind seat distribution, favoring larger parties over smaller parties which might otherwise win only a single seat. At the core of it, the system remains intensely < 1273340859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : proportional, and thus a party which wins approximately 25% of the vote should win approximately 25% of the seats." < 1273340873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not perfect indeed < 1273340901 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in norway basically _most_ representatives are elected "directly" from counties (with more than one per county though), and then the national representation is smoothed out with one extra seat per county < 1273340925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it could be that, I'm not completely sure < 1273340982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and: "The candidates chosen from each party are determined by two factors: the candidate's ranking by their party and the number of preference votes from the voters. Though the parties still entirely control the names on their own party lists, the system gives the voters a degree of power in choosing candidates from the list. For instance, in national parliamentary elections, any candidates who receive a number of personal votes equal to ei < 1273340983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ght percent or greater of the party's total amount of votes will automatically be bumped to the top of the list, regardless of their ranking on the list by the party. This threshold is only five percent for local elections and elections to the European Parliament." < 1273340990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is rather complicated < 1273340993 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it was increased to one extra seat per county because the lower number frequently meant extra votes to a party were frequently allocated to a district where they _didn't_ have significant votes. this may still be a problem, i don't know. < 1273341065 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273341080 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273341118 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have (had?) those preference vote things too, i think they almost never matter < 1273341163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then i don't even know the names of most local candidates so why would i bump any... < 1273341200 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be only for local elections nowadays < 1273341218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I remember reading about some parties list being overturned by it in Sweden < 1273341228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think it was in the last EU election < 1273341235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1273341254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone from 8th place being bumped to first or second or such < 1273341261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using zeta function regularisation, ∑(n=1, ∞) n^2 = 0, but ∑(n=1, ∞) n = −1/12 < 1273341266 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes me wonder: wut. < 1273341276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, even funnier, iirc we used to have "do not prefer" instead of "prefer" ages ago < 1273341295 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1273341296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could iirc check two you wanted to move down the list or some such < 1273341315 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i vaguely recall something like that in norway < 1273341326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, stop copying us ;P < 1273341351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely suspect they removed that because it actually _had_ an effect, on people the parties didn't want it to affect < 1273341360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273341367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but we're so good at it :D < 1273341371 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on *parties the *people < 1273341373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the other way around :D < 1273341398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, err? < 1273341402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: definitely the way i said it < 1273341413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it doesn't make much sense reversed < 1273341431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what do you mean err? < 1273341438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah :D < 1273341440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you sly man < 1273341445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what? < 1273341450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is he sly < 1273341459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's being snarky. < 1273341479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, no he just said your correction was incorrect. < 1273341487 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even i get the occasional snark you know < 1273341489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but snarky, no < 1273341501 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it counts as snark < 1273341522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw shouldn't down vote be a better system then? If it does have an effect. After all the elections should represent what people actually want < 1273341557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no because he was making a statement about party control duh < 1273341567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then it could allow some interesting tactical voting. Say, you prefer party A, but you definitely do not want the name from the top of the list in party B to get a seat. Thus you vote on party B but down-vote the first name on the list < 1273341579 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no the thing is upvoting only shifts some unimportant people up, and important people a _little_ down. while downvoting can shift _important_ people out. from the view of the party leadership. < 1273341623 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i vaguely recall for a while the parties could put some people _twice_ on the lists to counteract this. < 1273341629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes quite, but the voters should be allowed to get the people they prefer in IMO, and not the ones which happens to run the party. < 1273341630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1273341649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh, that's quite an insane solution < 1273341659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1273341663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically zeta regularisation is stating that < 1273341665 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :−1/12 + −2/12 + −3/12 + −4/12 + ⋯ = 0 < 1273341672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, wait, is it < 1273341673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1273341810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what does M.P. mean in English (context is voting system) < 1273341835 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Member of Parliament < 1273341838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273341846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh and another problem is that since _most_ people don't amend the voting lists, a tiny minority could mess up for candidates even if most people thought they were just fine. in theory even people sabotaging for _other_ parties... < 1273341857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Military police" can also be a relevant word in the context of voting systems... < 1273341864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with downvoting, especially) < 1273341893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, okay that is indeed a valid concern. < 1273341899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unlike the one you first mentioned) < 1273341908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1273341943 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually i see you mentioned the last point above < 1273341984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION writes too slowly to read everything else before he hits return < 1273342004 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1273342055 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273342073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ? < 1273342074 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1273342078 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: not in voting systems of countries we like to compare ourselves to ("land vi liker å sammenligne oss med", common norwegian political phrase) < 1273342093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh that about voting for another party just to move someone down? < 1273342099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yeah < 1273342114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it is rather a special-case of what you said < 1273342129 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273342129 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273342140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, btw, why don't you read while you are writing? < 1273342146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't you touch type? ;P < 1273342151 0 :MizardX-!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273342179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i don't have to watch the keys but i _do_ watch what i type < 1273342215 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have to keep my spelling errors down _somehow_, you know < 1273342226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well okay, I need to glace at what I'm writing every few words < 1273342232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not more than that < 1273342261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also my touch typing is not as perfect as it once was (dammit now i'm thinking about it it gets even harder. btw you are now breathing manually.) < 1273342267 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just need an irc client that puts new messages really close to where you're typing < 1273342276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also, another thing, when you type can you see your hands moving on the keyboard? As in, not that you are looking at it, but seeing it in the "edge" of your vision? < 1273342310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I used to need that, so typing in the dark didn't work.) < 1273342314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: oh it does. i just don't have that much concentration. or maybe i have too much, whatever. < 1273342324 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1273342329 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1273342332 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes. < 1273342336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can do that nowdays, except moving my hand back to the keyboard from the mouse) < 1273342353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, do you need to see that to be able to type? < 1273342400 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try to avoid it - ok i had troubles with the 'v', there < 1273342436 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notices the new topic < 1273342452 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically _most_ keys are automatic but not all, and my finger positioning is not stable enough < 1273342455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how did you avoid it? By placing something above the keyboard to hide it or such? < 1273342499 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: by looking a bit further up than usual. so i didn't really look at the text either, i guess. < 1273342511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically i'm way out of training. < 1273342572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah, and I would have to look way above the screen to do that. Best experiment is when it is dark. Oh and mostly black screen to reduce light from it. I suppose covering the keyboard would work too, but it might be tricky to find something suitable for that < 1273342601 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is now typing with eyes closed < 1273342608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, okay that worked well < 1273342608 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! :-) < 1273342609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow not a single error :) < 1273342638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but again that doesn't really test "not seeing hands", it tests "not seeing hands, nor screen" < 1273342638 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can type with my eyes closed too, though I imagine my error rate will be quite high; actually it feels very uncomfortable. < 1273342643 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1273342644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i had to look for the first / < 1273342645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn; s/ +/ / < 1273342648 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: next, change the keyboard layout and start over < 1273342651 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION also test writing with closed eyes < 1273342656 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tests* < 1273342667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so basically what i'm out of with touch typing is _confidence_ < 1273342683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I can type with eyes closed too, but it is slomewhat slower, and more errors < 1273342689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, slomewhat XD < 1273342736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also was that a sed expression? < 1273342738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: no thanks < 1273342746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, just a random IRC excpression < 1273342751 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1273342768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah good, because if it was sed you know that + is not "one or more" in sed. it is a literal + < 1273342780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would have needed /g, too. < 1273342801 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_clearly_ it was perl s/// < 1273342802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I only saw one double-space? < 1273342827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As we all know, IRC has its own regular expression and replacement syntax. < 1273342836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: x matches x+ < 1273342840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1273342845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: based on a dwim parser, presumably < 1273342848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since x+ = xx* < 1273342852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Why yes. < 1273342853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and {} in x* < 1273342859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes I know < 1273342861 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a DWIM-family language. < 1273342869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and spaces came before the " " < 1273342872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I did need /g. < 1273342874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273342884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"be a dwit, use dwim" < 1273342905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah *x is actually sugar for s/\{DWIM}/x/{DWIM} < 1273342915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which is basically a mix of the most common constructs from the most common dialects < 1273342920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where \{DWIM} determines an appropriate pattern, and the flag {DWIM} determines appropriate flags. < 1273342927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it's < 1273342935 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah *x is actually sugar for s/\{DWIM}/\{DWIMeval(x)}/{DWIM} < 1273342938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because x can contain shorthand and such < 1273342938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, for example I doubt negative lookbehind is very common in it < 1273342941 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: now that alise is back, the title is incorrect? < 1273342957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, no it isn't? < 1273342963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Were you guys panicing? Aww, how cute. < 1273342987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :panicing? why? < 1273343009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314, it says "alise-alert" which is completely accurate, he is here, there is thus a red alert ;P < 1273343011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1273343035 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1273343053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives up on actually reading the logs today < 1273343056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, which script is that? < 1273343061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why? < 1273343070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: ??? < 1273343075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: ... Sorry. < 1273343083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Japanese. < 1273343086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273343086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because i've been on here for hours with them in another window, and haven't got beyond the first screen :) < 1273343087 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Which means it's 3 different scripts. < 1273343102 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, they are really long < 1273343126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, where was that bit you replied to pineapple? As in, as far as I can tell pikhq haven't said anything for as many screens up as I checked (4) < 1273343142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1273343146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pineapple: ... Sorry. < 1273343149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mishighlight. < 1273343149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/pikhq/pineapple/ < 1273343150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1273343158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273343160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I see < 1273343161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I had a massive thinko. < 1273343168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1273343175 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, *damn*. < 1273343179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you tried to highlight yourself or something? < 1273343182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to highlight myself. < 1273343202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and why? < 1273343202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to drink more coffee. < 1273343209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall. < 1273343223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you already forgot why coffee? ;P < 1273343240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that. < 1273343241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sorry, that wasn't fair, it was actually same second for both on this side) < 1273343244 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I LIKE THE COFFEE < 1273343260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and mine was just before yours, but I realised it could be unclear on the other end) < 1273343265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1273343274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but yeah I meant why self-highlight < 1273343282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I haven't a clue. < 1273343286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1273343290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SED, MI SXATAS LA KAFON. < 1273343339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :デモ、 ボク ガ コヒー ガ スキ ダ。 < 1273343378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... boku ga kohii ga? That's... Wrong. < 1273343401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :デモ、 ボク ハ コヒー ガ スキ ダ。 < 1273343404 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's better. < 1273343936 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :‮I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕が問題にユニコードが好きだ。 | ‭http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1273343952 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay for unicode override characters ;-) < 1273344129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Josiah Dammit, why has my name become popular? :P < 1273344235 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :end of the world in 2012, probably < 1273344249 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather biblical name :p < 1273344272 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, King Josiah was indeed in the Bible. < 1273344372 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273344399 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My life feels empty and without meaning. Any suggestions on interesting things to do? < 1273344421 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curses, you just made me feel the same way < 1273344425 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'll just pirate Mathematica after all... < 1273344443 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, don't do that < 1273344457 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a spare copy which I (probably?) could send you < 1273344459 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise told me to! < 1273344468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: err < 1273344471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just as illegal < 1273344490 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends. < 1273344495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it does not. < 1273344511 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely giving a copy you bought is legal? < 1273344522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol lol lol < 1273344524 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to copyright law < 1273344540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no it is not of course < 1273344542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is piracy < 1273344547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, you could give away your own copy couldn't you? Assuming you didn't keep it as well < 1273344552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. < 1273344555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sharing copyrighted software is illegal. End of. < 1273344565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the very basis of copyrigth law. < 1273344573 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not sharing; you no longer have it. < 1273344580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, indeed < 1273344596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are really naive < 1273344602 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's an unactivated copy < 1273344605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, let me be more formal < 1273344615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so does this apply to art too? < 1273344620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes. < 1273344640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so you cant sell paintings on your walls? < 1273344640 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if he has a CD with Mathematica on it, which he hasn't installed, it is illegal for him to give it to me? < 1273344641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Providing anyone with a copy of copyrighted material without the express permission of the copyright holder or someone authorised to give permission on their behalf, is illegal. < 1273344645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you no longer want them? < 1273344653 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that isn't how physical property works < 1273344659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well that is what you saifd < 1273344662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :said* < 1273344663 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not < 1273344666 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273344667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am talking about abstract entities only. < 1273344675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if you no longer have a copy it is the same as selling a painting < 1273344682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you kept it as well, that would be different < 1273344704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Digital information does not work that way and when you get fucked for copyright infringement don't come whining to me < 1273344711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes copyright law makes no fucking sense < 1273344712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so what about cds with game on them < 1273344713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deal with it. < 1273344720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selling that cd would be legal or not? < 1273344734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming you bought that cd before < 1273344737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Physical. < 1273344750 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1273344754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not surprising that AnMaster is being an idiot but I didn't expect others to be so naive. < 1273344759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, this makes no sense, if you erase your copy you no longer have it < 1273344774 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Have you got it in physical form? < 1273344774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND COPYRIGHT LAW. < 1273344783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, it makes NO SENSE < 1273344788 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no < 1273344789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Of course it fucking doesn't < 1273344792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1273344796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's applying artificial scarcity to unscarce bits < 1273344800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT DOES NOT MAKE ANY FUCKING SENSE < 1273344802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, are you sure you didn't just misunderstand it? < 1273344802 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273344805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is WHY copyright law is PATHOLOGICAL < 1273344808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this is too absurd < 1273344810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I am 100% certain that I am right. < 1273344816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1273344876 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Indeed. You have already started asserting your superiority over all who are sceptical of your point. < 1273344892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this is basic copyright law < 1273345121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The whole *point* of copyright is to make some non-scarce things more scarce. < 1273345140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1273345147 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's true. < 1273345181 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok - I have a wolfram (student) download/license, unactivated, unused, etc. < 1273345181 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's obviously illegal to start selling photocopies of Harry Potter. < 1273345200 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The debate is over what you can do with your own copy. < 1273345208 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: BTW, in the US and probably also the UK, it would be perfectly legal for someone to give you a no-longer installed copy of a program. < 1273345213 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First sale doctrine. < 1273345224 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Mm, but copyright law muddles that immensely. < 1273345231 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your copy" almost entirely loses meaning. < 1273345243 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one of your copies? The one in memory, on disk? What Colour does it have? What? Who? Where-- < 1273345280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: First sale doctrine has been stated to override copyright law. You must not *retain* copies of the item, but you are still free to give it to someone else < 1273345294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is completely asinine, yes, but that's beside the point. < 1273345308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. ...Surely this has to be US-only. < 1273345313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The UK isn't /that/ crazy... < 1273345317 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least its insanity is consistent, surely. < 1273345337 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, what does UK law state? < 1273345339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was ruled by a court, rather than being written in law. < 1273345362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Regardless, it is UNACTIVATED. < 1273345368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, you would have to use a key generator to use it anyway. < 1273345369 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is illegal. < 1273345378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as the only way for first-sale doctrine as commonly known and copyright law as written to interact without one or the other being denied.) < 1273345380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So honestly... just pirate it. < 1273345410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, so Mathnerd doesn't have the means to activate it himself? < 1273345521 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it goes something like website->download->enter code->activate < 1273345537 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you would have the activation codes? < 1273345592 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I have to register it after I download it < 1273345597 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah < 1273345676 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so alise is wrong about the key generator? < 1273345690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehm < 1273345695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :using the student version isn't legal if you're not a student < 1273345699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought at least /that/ would be obvious < 1273345702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1273345705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obtaining the license key < 1273345711 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do we define "student"? < 1273345717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X_X < 1273345718 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I certainly stud < 1273345721 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :y < 1273345723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the fucking wolfram site, I don't know how they define it < 1273345729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you DO meet the criteria you can get it legally yourself anyway < 1273345787 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "Available to those working toward a high school, associate's, bachelor's, master's, doctoral, or equivalent degree" < 1273345820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so if you are doing that... < 1273345823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just get a damn student license! < 1273345826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're not... it's illegal! < 1273345876 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you don't care... Might as well pirate! Arrrr! < 1273345903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR < 1273345911 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now understand the logistics of pirating :p < 1273345911 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. < 1273346068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR < 1273346071 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION rapes and pillages < 1273346124 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1273346127 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has come out of this even less certain of things than he was before. < 1273346178 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I know is that copyright law is even stupider than I thought it was. < 1273346248 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: who exactly are you raping and pillaging? it seems hard to do over the internet :p < 1273346267 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like the Freenode network topology. < 1273346274 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *don't* want to know. < 1273346440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: you don't want to know. < 1273346470 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273346506 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.229.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273346525 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1273346568 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain why I wouldn't want to know < 1273346629 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *don't* want to now why you *don't* want to know. < 1273347127 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273347157 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, alise is here! < 1273347246 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Phantom_Hoover: suppose I did in fact know, because I convinced you to tell me. what arguments would my future self give my current self for why I wouldn't want to know what my future self knew? < 1273347257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: stop trying to sound clever < 1273347259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1273347276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the answer, little man, is that you *don't* want to know the reasons < 1273347320 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sincerely doubt my future self would say that < 1273347330 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1273347338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't know the truth. < 1273347384 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you did, you would beg your past self not to find out. < 1273347384 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: that is only because you are in denial. < 1273347401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is don't-want-to-knows all the way down, Mathnerd314. < 1273347410 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did I miss? This sounds interesting. < 1273347423 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *don't* want to know. < 1273347435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes :D < 1273347461 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SgeoN1: (it's just fluff) < 1273347487 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: but *how* would I beg my past self? what arguments would I use? < 1273347529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *don't* want to know. < 1273347530 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You would be incapable of telling your past self, out of compassion. < 1273347632 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in similar situations, I've heard similar things, and know that I would be able to tell my past self something more substantial than that I am incapable of telling my past self anything < 1273347657 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what you *think*. < 1273347669 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's what I *know* < 1273347670 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *don't* want to know why you're wrong. < 1273347682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: those things were not the Infinite Tower of Despair. < 1273347689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only the Infinite Tower of Despair satisfies this infinite chain. < 1273347699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't want to know. All you could say: You don't want to konw. < 1273347704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The truth: You don't want to know. < 1273347754 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :context? < 1273347766 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *don't* want to know. < 1273347772 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the logs < 1273347797 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could, but you *don't* want to know what's in them. < 1273347798 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how far back? i can't tell the signal to noise ratio < 1273347837 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suffice to say that you neither want to know the Freenode network topology nor who alise is raping. < 1273347843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And pillaging! < 1273347851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And being generally ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR towards. < 1273347858 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He *didn't* want to know that. < 1273347859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: this is /all/ noise... < 1273347883 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But perhaps there is signal in it that you *don't* want to know/ < 1273347918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The signal is hidden in the timestamps. < 1273347935 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: stop with the wanting already. I know what I want at this current moment, and I want to know < 1273347947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah; internet is out < 1273347958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But once I tell you, you *won't* want to have known. < 1273348003 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: so... how does my future self convince me? < 1273348023 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He would beg if he could. < 1273348048 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he says, "I beg you... don't want to know!" < 1273348073 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In theory. < 1273348086 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, he would also be unable to speak. < 1273348144 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really unconvincing < 1273348152 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1273348168 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since you can talk and presumably know < 1273348170 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be convincing, I would have to tell you things that you *don't* want to know. < 1273348193 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you *don't* want to know what happened to me. < 1273348199 0 :alise_!~alise@91.105.83.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273348213 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1273348243 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the symptoms cannot be worse than the disease... < 1273348264 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is how bad the disease is. < 1273348281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1273348297 0 :alise_!~alise@91.105.83.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1273348303 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yess it works < 1273348308 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get 6.8 mbit/s, woo < 1273348315 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now lose the beard? < 1273348402 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: So will you be pirating Mathematica now? < 1273348406 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes. < 1273348411 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1273348422 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *don't* want to know. < 1273348424 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was on 3g stick before < 1273348425 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := slow < 1273348429 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 15/gb < 1273348444 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you would have been as well buying it. < 1273348483 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :813.4 KiB/s < 1273348492 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man this is the best connection i've ever had < 1273348493 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not quite :P < 1273348523 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: so can I get physically harmed by knowing? < 1273348540 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *don't* want to know. < 1273348590 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: this scythe fan is terrible < 1273348597 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it's a yes or no question, with a very small amount of damage either way < 1273348611 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you *don't* want to know what i'm going to do to you with a cucumber if you don't stop saying that... < 1273348612 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: the yate loons are far better < 1273348628 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: ok < 1273348639 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: The answer is neither yes nor no. < 1273348675 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so it's completely illogical. < 1273348686 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1273348782 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so therefore, as a logical being, I am immune to it. < 1273348840 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you really think you're a logical being, you've got something wrong. < 1273348846 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm being serious. < 1273348861 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're a *very* sophisticated bot. < 1273348903 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I've been reading a lot of http://www.lesswrong.com/. So I should be pretty logical by now < 1273348930 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading Less Wrong does not automagically make you logical. < 1273348958 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I *feel* logical < 1273348975 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: Hah, I knew you were reading Less Wrong. < 1273348981 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though of course there's no logical way to *prove* I'm logical < 1273348986 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you *aren't*. Humans are innately illogical. < 1273348994 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smart people there. Very smart. Effect on most people: verbose meanderings that just show someone trying to seem logical. < 1273348996 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: false. < 1273349005 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1273349038 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :false, as in, what you said is false. < 1273349048 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, not every human is insane < 1273349049 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans are not ""innately"" illogical, we just have several built-in biases that make being logical more work. < 1273349069 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would define that as innate. < 1273349081 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathnerd314: can I just recommend that you avoid talking authoritatively about rationality until you've developed it a bit more and got over the initial lesswrong rush? < 1273349086 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: but it is still possible to be logical. < 1273349098 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. But we aren't logical beings. < 1273349239 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I strongly doubt that LessWrongers never act illogically. < 1273349310 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1273349315 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg. mathematica is downloaded /already/ < 1273349319 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like sex on wheels < 1273349360 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would ask what on earth you meant, but I know what you'd say. < 1273349445 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my connection < 1273349449 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently it has something to do with cars < 1273349452 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is like sex, moved by a contraption of wheels < 1273349529 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs < 1273349609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now installing... < 1273349609 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ ] < 1273349612 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange that nothing happens. < 1273349625 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you just Google it and find a torrent? < 1273349744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, now it is going. < 1273349865 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I just used torrentz.com, lazy as I am, and found http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4566766/WOLFRAM.RESEARCH.MATHEMATICA.V7.0.LINUX-EDGEISO < 1273349870 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which includes a keygen that works with wine < 1273349903 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when The Government come to murder you in your sleep? < 1273349950 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, wolfram hasn't started litigation yet < 1273349961 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Yet.* < 1273350053 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's pretty hard to sue someone who's not actively downloading < 1273350067 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh; the GUI is rendering in Windows-y colours. < 1273350103 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah; the linux port is not that good, I hear < 1273350175 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't. < 1273350178 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux ports are *never* that good. < 1273350179 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it isn't as laggy as last time, at least. < 1273350332 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273350370 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You made me look, so; the upgrade from the student Mathematica to the retail Mathematica has a 75 % discount, which is not too shabby. < 1273350393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course the retail price *is* 3185 EUR, so it's still not exactly cheap. < 1273350409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or 3980 EUR for the Solaris version.) < 1273350416 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WtH are you paying for?? < 1273350446 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.E. Why is it so highly priced? < 1273350460 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sentience, I guess. < 1273350462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Wolfram's ego. < 1273350473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know many people who have bought that; though I know of two that have bought the student license, which I think was something like 70 EUR. < 1273350500 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a *difference* between the student version and the standard one? < 1273350521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3115 EUR. < 1273350547 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, actually they seem to have bumped the student price up to 150 eur for Mathematica 7.0. (I last looked at it for 6.) < 1273350567 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's still >3keur difference. < 1273350593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no functional difference. But you must stop using it when you graduate. < 1273350605 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is insanity. < 1273350636 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, 128 EUR if you get the download version directly from Wolfram. 150 eur was our university's list price, but I think that includes a nifty installation disc. < 1273350656 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram Research must have found out about the thing that you *don't* want to know. < 1273350688 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should go into the den, where I have a working computer. < 1273350717 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than just using my phone in my room < 1273350776 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, what's the student price for Flash. If it's free, I just might get it. < 1273350781 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be interesting to know their license revenues, though of course they won't tell you that. < 1273350830 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Adobe's general student discount is about 80% off the retail price. < 1273350839 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could just use Flex or something, though. < 1273350880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Save up to 80% off the full retail price* with Adobe Student and Teacher Editions — full commercial versions at low prices for students and now teachers, too." < 1273350882 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"* Prices are subject to change without notice and are for qualified education customers only. Reseller prices may vary." < 1273351156 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1273351186 0 :pgimeno!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1273351230 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the default privmsg message. < 1273351236 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273351363 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273351756 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1273352004 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273352008 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION heres some music that he associates with a game that he now knows to be a Bejeweled clone < 1273352262 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate leer < 1273352264 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read < 1273352395 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: also look at instructions.png (in diff. lang) in the keygen dir < 1273352398 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use wine for the keygen < 1273352524 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, nice desktop computer with a weaker processor than my phone < 1273352574 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arguably, I'm falling into the clockspeed=better trap, but it is an old computer < 1273352774 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273353335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In[16]:= Fibonacci'[n] < 1273353335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2 n < 1273353335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out[16]= (GoldenRatio Log[GoldenRatio] + Cos[n Pi] Log[GoldenRatio] + < 1273353335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1273353335 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : n < 1273353336 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :> Pi Sin[n Pi]) / (Sqrt[5] GoldenRatio ) < 1273353339 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know how to disable this wrapping? < 1273353372 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps it would be best for a Mathematica bot to use InputForm: < 1273353376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In[2]:= InputForm[Fibonacci'[n]] < 1273353376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out[2]//InputForm= < 1273353376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(GoldenRatio^(2*n)*Log[GoldenRatio] + Cos[n*Pi]*Log[GoldenRatio] + < 1273353376 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Pi*Sin[n*Pi])/(Sqrt[5]*GoldenRatio^n) < 1273353418 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TETRIS! < 1273353441 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Yes? Tetris. < 1273353456 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the MIDI playing on my phone right now, a Tetris midi < 1273353614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In[1]:= Limit[Fibonacci[n+1]/Fibonacci[n], n->Infinity] // InputForm < 1273353614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Limit::ztest1: Unable to decide whether numeric quantity < 1273353614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -Log[2] + 2 Log[1 + Sqrt[5]] - Log[3 + Sqrt[5]] < 1273353614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : is equal to zero. Assuming it is. < 1273353614 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Out[1]//InputForm= (1 + Sqrt[5])/2 < 1273353619 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those error messages are way too verbose for IRC. < 1273353826 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273353859 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~chatzilla@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1273354050 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back in ~20mins < 1273354103 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273354174 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! < 1273354224 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what isn't boring? < 1273354240 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION messages noog < 1273354241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1273354826 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1273355347 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I put out a huge collection of unlabelled MIDI files, how many people would help label them? < 1273356182 0 :AndChat|!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273356200 0 :AndChat|!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1273356206 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1273356268 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo coi la uorygl < 1273356269 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coi la uorygl < 1273356277 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1273356279 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn, I did that wrong. < 1273356280 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo coi la uorygl < 1273356281 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coi la uorygl < 1273356286 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, much better. < 1273356287 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate coi < 1273356288 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considered < 1273356296 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273356302 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think Google will do Lojban. < 1273356311 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"coi" means "hello" and "la" means "that-which-is-named". < 1273356342 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know Lojban? < 1273356354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some, yeah. < 1273356365 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F My Connection < 1273356399 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I chose this nick so that other people who know Lojban might know that I know Lojban. < 1273356410 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it's a very Lojban name. < 1273356412 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it mean? < 1273356420 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it just stylistic? < 1273356428 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a transcription of the English word "warrigal". < 1273356463 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see that the Pirate Party has some opposition. In Finland, there has been started a Ninja Party. < 1273356543 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, Finland. < 1273356565 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.2/20100316074819] < 1273357008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: BTW, in the US and probably also the UK, it would be perfectly legal for someone to give you a no-longer installed copy of a program. <-- that was what I was talking about all the time -_- < 1273357165 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1273357264 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, it appears that over half of all Finns know English. < 1273357318 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As do most Swedes. < 1273357334 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. < 1273357334 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-34-17-217.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273357347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oranjer! < 1273357352 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hola? < 1273357355 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1273357364 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hola, Oranjer. ¿Cómo te va? < 1273357383 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beats me, just a greeting < 1273357423 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see. < 1273357430 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep yep < 1273357448 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate ¿Cómo te va? < 1273357450 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are you doing? < 1273357463 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I could divine that < 1273357468 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing great < 1273357478 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bueno. < 1273357479 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :va? < 1273357486 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Va" means "goes". < 1273357501 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, "How does it go for you?" < 1273357512 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :literally, yes < 1273357514 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1273357532 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shhh, stop speaking linguistics, it's augur < 1273357543 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This isn't linguistics. < 1273357571 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puedo hablar de linguistics si lo quiero. < 1273357584 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was about to be < 1273357624 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vamos a ver, parece que se llama "lingüística" en español. < 1273357632 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How difficult to type. < 1273357679 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lingüística < 1273357716 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aquí, tengo que teclear "l i n g opt-u u opt-e i s t i c a". < 1273357735 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a compose key. < 1273357763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my option key is pretty much the same as your compose key. < 1273357773 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"l i n g compose-"-u compose-'-i s t i c a" < 1273357781 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except my option key makes slightly less sense. U is a diaeresis, E is an acute accent. < 1273357811 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to enable a compose key < 1273357831 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, really, I already have to know two different ways to make characters < 1273357835 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift-altgr was what I had by default. < 1273357883 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pero es mejor que cuando mi tecla de opción era una tecla de meta y tenía que cambiar mi keyboard layout cada vez que quería teclar un special character. < 1273357936 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate Pero es mejor que cuando mi tecla de opción era una tecla de meta y tenía que cambiar mi keyboard layout cada vez que quería teclar un special character. < 1273357938 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's better than when my option key was a key goal and had to change my keyboard layout whenever I wanted to click a special character. < 1273357952 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Close enough. < 1273357960 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate tecla de meta < 1273357962 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :key goal < 1273357975 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`translate meta de tecla < 1273357976 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :key goal < 1273357994 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does it think "tecla de meta" is "key goal" and not "goal key"? < 1273358042 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1273358047 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1273358528 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1273358733 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate spanish < 1273358742 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reminds me of high school < 1273358875 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... okay, I'm looking for a new language for my Agora reports; can anyone offer suggestions? < 1273358946 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want something with good databasing powers, but isn't as obtuse as SQL < 1273358960 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and neither do I want to use SQL as the storage layer and something else as the processing layer < 1273359674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: hmm... < 1273359689 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, it doesn't need to be a database. it will fit fine into a regular structure < 1273359695 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1273359702 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might want something LINQish though < 1273359704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: Probably just because you ended up "learning" it in high school. < 1273359720 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I say Haskell you will probably maul me... < 1273359722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, frankly, high school language classes tend to suck if you want to actually learn a language. < 1273359725 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate Spanish. < 1273359737 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just makes me want to claw people's eyes out < 1273359738 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: I considered it, but that means I have to set up all the key associations manually < 1273359744 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Eh? < 1273359746 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1273359752 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just put the referenced object in directly. < 1273359757 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then have every object keep track of its number. < 1273359759 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy. < 1273359766 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly, I don't want to have to do that < 1273359768 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get out of the relational mindset. < 1273359771 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What? < 1273359778 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to specify what objects are contained in other objects... < 1273359780 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's effectively relational though < 1273359804 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, I can't store the player datastructure directly in the office datastructure < 1273359811 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because multiple offices may share a player < 1273359830 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must store some identifying piece of information about that player (id or name) and then look that up in the set of players < 1273359842 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: do you have a particular reason for hating Spanish? < 1273359854 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like this to be done transparently, e.g. pointers < 1273359860 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: everything said in Spanish sounds stupid < 1273359873 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as everything in Latin, profound < 1273359880 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: nopeee < 1273359887 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you don't need one global reference to a player < 1273359888 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. < 1273359895 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: huh? < 1273359897 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about stuff in Lojban, or Finnish? < 1273359899 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is wrong with having two identical "coppro" objects in two offices? < 1273359901 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need pointers < 1273359901 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur." < 1273359912 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: If one gets updated, the other isn't necessarily updated to match < 1273359914 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's righ < 1273359916 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :t < 1273359944 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Well, you have to specify what kind of update you mean. This is a functional language, after all. < 1273359952 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: I haven't heard much/any spoken Finnish. < 1273359954 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor much Lojban. < 1273359996 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: let's say I change my nickname < 1273360021 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to make sure both offices' copies of my data are changed appropriately < 1273360032 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Simple. < 1273360040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: And everything written in Chinese on someone's flesh looks "cool". < 1273360046 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_: code example? < 1273360073 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have a function "modifyPerson" that traverses all the offices etc. and does the transformation e.g. if nick=="x", replace with f(that person) in the returned structure < 1273360075 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you do < 1273360092 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modifyPerson "coppro" (\x -> x{name="pooppy"}) < 1273360094 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1273360095 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :modifyPerson "coppro" (\x -> x{name="pooppy"}) game < 1273360099 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and get the revised game state back < 1273360107 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :easy to think of things like changeNick as shorthands for these < 1273360114 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1273360115 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it's slightly less computationally efficient... but who gives a fuck < 1273360115 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1273360125 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even when it's something like "朝鮮民主主義人民和国!" (The Democratic People's Republic of Korea!) < 1273360137 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it lets you use the expressivity and good data structure support of Haskell, and avoid pointers, which suck in Haskell. < 1273360138 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How come having two copies of everything is better than having pointers or something? < 1273360138 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any other suggestions from anyone present? < 1273360138 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if anyone has ever gotten such a tattoo. < 1273360166 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: because you can do something like "name . officeHolder" < 1273360170 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of < 1273360175 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"name . lookupPerson . officeHolder" < 1273360178 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1273360178 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not necessarily two. < 1273360179 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but! < 1273360182 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the person can mutate < 1273360185 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might even be in a gonad < 1273360189 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it gets even uglier < 1273360252 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what gonads have to do with what appears to be Haskell < 1273360269 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently slang for monads. < 1273360275 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1273360344 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaannywho < 1273360351 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one else has any suggestions? < 1273360353 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so monad is like < 1273360369 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, a function with side effects that is mathematicaly valid? < 1273360396 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: no. stop. < 1273360402 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop even trying. learn haskell first, then monads < 1273360415 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do not attempt to come up with explanations of monads until you are sure that you have found one that is correct, because it is almost certainly incorrect < 1273360418 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one cannot learn haskell without knowing monads < 1273360423 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. one can. < 1273360426 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is simple fact < 1273360427 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monads are... Things that go around data. < 1273360430 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think. < 1273360440 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wrong again. < 1273360445 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bah! < 1273360455 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew once! < 1273360468 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A monad is a pair of functions. < 1273360491 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A data type used to represent computations. < 1273360503 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, a monad is fmap, join and unit! < 1273360504 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, in Haskell, a monad is a type constructor. < 1273360539 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A monad.. I'm not going to say is, but say involves, ways to make data be part of the monad, and to combine a piece of monadized data with a function that returns monadized behavior < 1273360548 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*data < 1273360548 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda calculus is pretty straightforward < 1273360554 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monads are not < 1273360604 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Haskell-style-category-theory, a monad is a pair of functions. One takes any value and returns a value in the monad's codomain. The other takes a function taking any value, and returns a function taking a value in the monad's codomain. < 1273360638 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell-style-category-theory is idiotic because it allows monads that are not functors. < 1273360640 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For all a, a value of type "IO a" represents some I/O action that can be performed to yield a result of type a. < 1273360664 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, does anyone actually write such monads? < 1273360668 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1273360674 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are idiots < 1273360675 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IO is a monad, so you can use the first function I mentioned to construct a "nop", and the second function I mentioned to string actions together. < 1273360689 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely the functor stuff can be implemented in terms of monad functions? < 1273360704 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes and no. < 1273360710 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709] < 1273360710 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, I think you have a knack for caring about things that don't matter and not caring about things that matter. < 1273360721 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a nice opinion; I will disregard it. < 1273360728 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But perhaps I'm overestimating how objective my opinions are. < 1273360728 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Is that not caring about something that matters, I wonder?) < 1273360737 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it is. :P < 1273360742 0 :facsimile!~e@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1273360751 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually I care about absolute precision and accuracy, so, yeah... I fail at that a ton, though. < 1273360774 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cares about fame much more than he cares about fortune < 1273360791 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Then you are crazy. < 1273360795 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Celebrity is hell. < 1273360815 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe more Torvalds-like fame rather than, say, celebrity-like fame < 1273360832 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a tendency to assume your values are everyone's values. But then again, so does everyone. < 1273360870 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I think I'd rather have "Sgeo" be famous than "Seth ...." be famous < 1273360906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although then I'd have to change some passwords probably.. some of them are a bit too guessable < 1273360918 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl: No, I usually just blatantly disregard everyone else's values because they're wrong. < 1273360941 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some time ago, I guess, I decided to not bother my thinking with those unneccessary steps where I consider what other people think about whatever I'm thinking about. < 1273360951 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're so cute. :P < 1273360959 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why yes, yes I am. < 1273360967 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'd rathest be known by only one name. < 1273360969 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1273360979 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I've fallen victim to the idea that one shouldn't divulge one's real name online. < 1273360987 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, too late < 1273361008 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems I've successfully changed the nickname-I-use-everywhere once. < 1273361021 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My paranoia regarding that though is the reason my name isn't in the WSJ < 1273361028 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It used to be ihope (which got disambiguated to "ihope127"); now it's Warrigal (which got disambiguated to "uorygl"). < 1273361039 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wall Street Journal? < 1273361042 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1273361055 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://alnk.org/rabidpage < 1273361071 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the "friend" of Mr. Parry < 1273361076 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who you should know < 1273361116 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1273361141 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So are you the other co-founder of the Creatures wiki? < 1273361146 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1273361149 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :creatures? < 1273361150 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neat. < 1273361159 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, kind of the founder, actually. GR just took over < 1273361165 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1273361167 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I became a severely absintee founder < 1273361183 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shudders at the idea of some day being considered "a co-founder of Normish". < 1273361215 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting. I find myself hoping that Normish dies and is replaced by something else of my creation, rather than being revived by someone other than me. < 1273361243 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1273361244 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems kind of cruel. < 1273361287 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures_Wiki:Administrators < 1273361291 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also find myself hoping that somebody's wondering if some malicious part of me is reading my mind and saying unflattering things I would rather keep to myself. :P < 1273361367 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine if that had second-person pronouns instead of first-: "Interesting. I find you hoping that Normish dies and is replaced by something else of your creation, rather than being revived by someone other than you. That seems kind of cruel." < 1273361406 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should link to creatureswiki.net and not wikia.com , really < 1273361555 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder whether my NIH beget my don't-consider-other's-thoughts or vice versa. < 1273361603 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps both simply come from a common source. < 1273361614 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise < 1273361620 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I instsalled it bt it wont boot < 1273361622 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do I do < 1273361623 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1273361714 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :facsimile: bit vague < 1273361720 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*begat < 1273361746 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION listens to La Espero < 1273361765 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least, the melody < 1273361929 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be nice if there was a calculator that was more CASy than graphingy < 1273362018 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has yet to change his nickname < 1273362022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION winneth < 1273362040 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've changed N times. < 1273362054 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has always been /me < 1273362062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where N is a non-real complex number. < 1273362072 0 :Alex3012!~chatzilla@ool-18b989d3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273362119 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no more alise-alert in the topic, right? < 1273362140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correct. < 1273362152 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You *can* look at the topic, you know. < 1273362164 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. There's Japanese in there, too. :P < 1273362179 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Japanese is "I love Unicode in my topics." < 1273362188 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Always, Oegs? < 1273362213 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was hoping that that line was a palindrome < 1273362258 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise_, where'd you get Oegs from? I'm pretty sure I was Sgeo before I ever used Oegs on occasion, but my Oegs use was not switching to/from Sgei < 1273362259 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Sgeo < 1273362275 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I've been Sgep here before, when I've forgotten Sgeo's password. < 1273362281 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm your mother. < 1273362286 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wait < 1273362289 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's brain's heuristics flag too late < 1273362292 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops; sorry. < 1273362339 0 :myndzi!myndzi@tengototen.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1273362343 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: null < 1273362581 0 :chickenz1lla!~chicken@olol.eu JOIN :#esoteric < 1273362759 0 :chickenzilla!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1273362764 0 :chickenz1lla!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :chickenzilla < 1273362865 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1273362913 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1273362916 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know of a name for the number [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...]? < 1273362922 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~1.433127426 < 1273362935 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called dicks constant < 1273362936 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1273362947 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're called dicks' constant. < 1273362950 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1273362965 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway it's irrational and not quadratic, obviously < 1273362975 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, like, what is it < 1273362982 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you. [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...]. name it < 1273362988 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does that syntax even mean? < 1273363001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those continued fractions? < 1273363010 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recall e has something linear like that < 1273363041 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1273363042 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :continued fractions < 1273363070 0 :alise_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[a_0; a_1, a_2, a_3, ...] = a_0 + (1 / (a_1 + (1 / (a_2 + (1 / a_3 + ... < 1273363120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50] < 1273363130 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.4331274267223117