00:00:08 http://oldweb.cecm.sfu.ca/cgi-bin/isc/lookup?number=1.4331274267223117&lookup_type=simple 00:00:20 ok 00:00:52 -!- alise_ has quit (*.net *.split). 00:00:52 -!- MizardX has quit (*.net *.split). 00:00:52 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 00:00:53 -!- alise_ has joined. 00:00:59 !haskell foldl1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50] 00:01:00 -!- MizardX has joined. 00:01:00 -!- Deewiant has joined. 00:01:01 4.499205338329423 00:01:08 -!- MizardX has quit (*.net *.split). 00:01:09 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 00:01:18 !haskell foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) [1..50000] 00:01:20 1.4331274267223117 00:01:21 !haskell foldr1 (\x y -> x + 1/y) $ reverse [1..50] 00:01:23 50.02039949385217 00:01:35 !haskell foldr1 (flip (\x y -> x + 1/y)) $ reverse [1..50] 00:01:37 -!- MizardX has joined. 00:01:37 -!- Deewiant has joined. 00:01:37 4.499205338329423 00:01:59 oerjan: what is that site anyway? it's like Plouffe's inverter but less comprehensive. 00:02:15 I USED plouffes inverter the other day! 00:02:32 oh, i think i was looking for plouffe's inverter, but google failed me then 00:02:41 I was trying to find a number expressed in terms of sqrt(13) and mysearch program didnt get it... but plouffes inverter did 00:02:49 oerjan: it is a better result though 00:02:55 because plouffe's had a ton of irrelevant crap 00:03:04 -!- alise_ has left (?). 00:03:07 -!- alise_ has joined. 00:03:12 ok 00:04:08 alise_: ah well all the other hits are just more continued fraction stuff... 00:04:16 I have this urge to write a program to approximate curves to write a little silly mathematical typesetter. 00:04:20 oerjan: most false positives 00:04:28 it does mark ContFrac(naturals) though 00:05:04 Also, I have this urge to write code for some sort of embedded CPU to make an almighty CASulator. 00:05:15 ouch the links to OEIS are borken 00:05:21 yeah 00:05:41 alise_: i presume most of those sequences are things _starting_ with 1,2,3... for a good number of terms 00:06:04 yeah 00:08:52 oh the continued fraction for e isn't that simple, it has 1,1 between 2n terms 00:10:15 tanh(1) is close, except with only odd numbers 00:10:32 now find one with only even numbers, and define the continued fraction interleaving operation 00:10:34 and we're done! 00:10:43 heh 00:12:41 * oerjan realizes he wrote borken above without noticing 00:13:26 (tanh(1/n) and others are listed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continued_fraction#Regular_patterns_in_continued_fractions) 00:14:24 Hey, the Bessel function is what it was looked up as. 00:14:28 ah what the inverters gave were those bessel functions, wasn't i... right 00:16:09 It's a nice number. I like it. 00:16:30 I think, it being unnamed, I will name it Hird's constant. Unless I think of something better to give that name to in my time, in which case it won't be called that any more. 00:18:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khinchin%27s_constant 00:19:07 (no it's not the same one) 00:19:17 but i found it interesting 00:19:18 ehhh 00:19:23 Its symbol is \mathcal{H}. 00:20:37 http://1.618034.com/blog_data/math/formula.5771.png 00:20:58 oh fuck 00:21:15 nooga :: Time -> Object 00:21:27 nooga saturday_night = beer 00:21:30 ;[ 00:21:37 doesn't work; saturday_night is a variable 00:21:49 damn 00:22:01 '' ? 00:22:03 you want SaturdayNight, obviously 00:22:08 ah yes 00:22:11 and then Beer 00:22:14 presumably 00:22:25 nooga SaturdayNight = Beer 00:23:25 Generalised Hird constant: 00:23:41 H_n = n + (1 / (n + 1 + (1 / n + 2 + (1 / (n + 3 + ... 00:23:47 H = H_1; 1/H = H_0. 00:24:22 Sometimes I think I may be just that little bit /too/ clever. 00:24:26 :P 00:26:11 Why does Mathematica fail so hard that it won't even evaluate H numerically? 00:26:23 In[6]:= N[ContinuedFractionK[k, {k, 0, Infinity}]] 00:26:23 Out[6]= ContinuedFractionK[k, {k, 0., \[Infinity]}] 00:26:30 lol 00:28:43 In[15]:= hird /. 00:28:43 RSolve[hird[n + 1] == n + 1 + (1/hird[n]), hird, n][[1]] 00:28:44 Out[15]= Function[{n}, (BesselI[-1 + n, -2] + n BesselI[n, -2] + 00:28:44 BesselK[-1 + n, 2] C[1] + n BesselK[n, 2] C[1])/(BesselI[n, -2] + 00:28:44 BesselK[n, 2] C[1])] 00:28:45 that's better 00:29:03 alise_: erm precedence fail in that H_n i think 00:29:30 presumably you want 1 / (, not (1 / 00:29:31 yeah, missed a paren before (n + 2 00:29:38 hi 00:29:45 lets talk about finitism 00:30:23 Hird[n_] := (BesselI[-1 + n, -2] + n BesselI[n, -2] + 00:30:23 BesselK[-1 + n, 2] + n BesselK[n, 2])/(BesselI[n, -2] + 00:30:23 BesselK[n, 2]) 00:30:25 facsimile: no. 00:30:30 :( 00:30:33 but I like it 00:30:34 argh what 00:30:36 alise_: hm you realise H_n = n + 1/H_{n+1} ? 00:30:37 In[24]:= N[Hird[1]] 00:30:37 Out[24]= -0.649798 00:30:44 oerjan: oh n+1 00:30:46 right :P 00:30:46 I'm reading a book about finite group theory 00:30:48 its nice 00:30:56 In[25]:= hird /. 00:30:56 RSolve[hird[n + 1] == n + 1 + (1/hird[n + 1]), hird, n][[1]] 00:30:56 Out[25]= Function[{n}, 1/2 (-Sqrt[5 + 2 (-1 + n) + (-1 + n)^2] + n)] 00:30:57 WOW 00:31:00 that is even nicer!!!! 00:31:15 no silly Bessel nosiree just good ol' sqrts 00:31:34 In[29]:= N[Hird[1]] 00:31:35 Out[29]= -0.618034 00:31:37 THAT IS NOT WHAT I WANTED 00:31:49 sill yrabbit. 00:31:53 *silly rabbit 00:31:53 oh wait 00:31:58 I made another mistake lol 00:32:14 ReplaceAll::reps: {hird[n]==n+1/hird[1+n]} is neither a list of replacement rules nor a valid dispatch table, and so cannot be used for replacing. >> 00:32:15 well uh 00:32:17 fuck you 00:32:18 so there 00:32:30 OERJAN COME UP WITH A NICE EXPRESSION FOR IT THX 00:32:42 when in doubt, consider a mathematician to be your computer. 00:32:44 sheesh 00:33:05 HEY it's a law, I named it so I can't do the work about it 00:33:20 that responsibility falls unto /you/, who will be shafted by history 00:33:38 !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [1..50] 00:33:40 [1.4331274267223117,2.30878937306624,3.2384534159000498,4.193691234094797,5.162856257658906,6.14038425280805,7.123306068860268,8.109900909526315,9.09910577000782,10.090229861703257,11.082805416334763,12.07650470540765,13.071091440344299,14.066391047318163,15.062271803120291,16.05863247717872,17.05539400888454,18.052493764882254,19.049881490555215,20.047516400759932,21.045365053054066,22.043399768719727,23.041597443938652,24.039938643221006,25.038406899 00:34:26 erm the last few terms are not exact 00:34:30 !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [1..100] 00:34:31 [1.4331274267223117,2.30878937306624,3.2384534159000498,4.193691234094797,5.162856257658906,6.14038425280805,7.123306068860268,8.109900909526315,9.09910577000782,10.090229861703257,11.082805416334763,12.07650470540765,13.071091440344299,14.066391047318163,15.062271803120291,16.05863247717872,17.05539400888454,18.052493764882254,19.049881490555215,20.047516400759932,21.045365053054066,22.043399768719727,23.041597443938652,24.039938643221006,25.038406899 00:34:43 oh they were 00:34:45 is that the successive hird numbers? 00:34:50 yes 00:34:51 !sadol !=$3000$3000 00:34:52 1 00:34:54 if so, may i note that you forgot H_0 00:34:56 the last one just looked truncated 00:35:07 !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [0..100] -- sheesh 00:35:08 !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [0..100] 00:35:10 [0.697774657964008,1.4331274267223117,2.30878937306624,3.2384534159000498,4.193691234094797,5.162856257658906,6.14038425280805,7.123306068860268,8.109900909526315,9.09910577000782,10.090229861703257,11.082805416334763,12.07650470540765,13.071091440344299,14.066391047318163,15.062271803120291,16.05863247717872,17.05539400888454,18.052493764882254,19.049881490555215,20.047516400759932,21.045365053054066,22.043399768719727,23.041597443938652,24.0399386432 00:35:10 [0.697774657964008,1.4331274267223117,2.30878937306624,3.2384534159000498,4.193691234094797,5.162856257658906,6.14038425280805,7.123306068860268,8.109900909526315,9.09910577000782,10.090229861703257,11.082805416334763,12.07650470540765,13.071091440344299,14.066391047318163,15.062271803120291,16.05863247717872,17.05539400888454,18.052493764882254,19.049881490555215,20.047516400759932,21.045365053054066,22.043399768719727,23.041597443938652,24.0399386432 00:35:12 lulz 00:35:16 !haskell scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [0..100] :: CReal 00:35:39 er [CReal] ofc 00:35:41 egobot doesn't have it 00:35:41 i doubt that EgoBot has CReal 00:35:50 > scanr1 (\n x -> n + 1/x) [0..10] :: [CReal] 00:35:50 [0.6977746579640063874581706013218497243509,1.4331274267223150332875975712205324867433,2.3087893730662226112174662595471111580419,3.2384534159002329348068701459991873036222,4.19369123409157731148406 00:35:50 60758323982791002,5.1628562577447335811648079306071871127633,6.1403842495719992391097584173482975080845,7.1233062330623306233062330623306233062331,8.1098901098901098901098901098901098901099,9.1,10.0] 00:35:59 it seems i have found quite some nice numbers! 00:36:08 also, isn't CReal somewhat lazy, in which case you should be able to use [0..] 00:36:09 hmm 00:36:20 * oerjan doesn't actually know 00:36:24 H_1 = I_0(2)/I_1(2); H_2 = I_1(2)/I_2(2) 00:36:49 * alise_ chops off the first term again 00:36:54 ah, I_2(2)/I_3(2) 00:37:11 so H_(n+1) = I_n(2) / I_(n+1)(2) 00:37:20 or wait CReal cannot know that the list doesn't contain something enormous negative far beyond 00:37:31 which, err, begs the question, 00:37:41 what's H_0 00:37:55 I do not think there is I_-1 00:37:59 !sadol :o:g:a0~n5?=#_4"+94SaturdayNight!"4Beer0 nooga "+94SaturdayNight 00:38:00 Beer 00:38:04 yadaa 00:38:12 oh 00:38:21 I_-1(2)/I_0(2) = I_1(2)/I_0(2) 00:38:32 so basically apply abs 00:38:57 or, you know, you don't have to 00:39:19 In[36]:= N[Hird[50]] 00:39:19 Out[36]= 50.0196 00:39:19 In[37]:= N[Hird[500]] 00:39:19 Out[37]= 500.001996000004 00:39:20 cool! 00:39:25 Hird[n] is almost n as n gets big enough 00:39:38 Oh, of course 00:39:42 Since it becomes 00:39:51 n + 1 / (n+1 + ...) 00:40:04 and if n is sufficiently big, 1/(n+1) is tiny 00:41:15 could you write a function that finds any equilibrium of given list in haskell? 00:41:37 In[46]:= Hird[2] 00:41:37 Out[46]= BesselI[1, 2]/BesselI[2, 2] 00:41:37 In[47]:= Hird[-1] 00:41:37 Out[47]= BesselI[2, 2]/BesselI[1, 2] 00:41:53 H_-n = 1/H_n 00:42:17 H only clashes with harmonic numbers outside of typesetting, \mathcal ofc 00:43:55 wait that -n conjecture is actually false. 00:44:10 H_-n = 1/H_(n+1) 00:45:05 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:45:32 i hate Bessel and Tchebyshev 00:45:34 Wow, it appears that over half of all Finns know English. 00:45:41 Erm, heh, there are even real-indexed Hird numbers! 00:45:44 In[64]:= N[Hird[Pi]] 00:45:44 Out[64]= 3.37253 00:45:53 it's a mandatory school subject in norway, i presume it's the same in finland and sweden 00:46:04 it's even the same in Poland 00:46:07 i think nowadays from first grade, even 00:46:19 oh my god 00:46:21 (it was fourth grade back when i did it) 00:46:25 there are even imaginary-indexed Hird numbers 00:46:26 -!- coppro has joined. 00:46:44 yeah, but here they "teach" English instead of teaching it 00:46:46 nooga: what's an equilibrium? 00:47:52 * oerjan somehow avoided most of bessel and tchebyshev in his education, despite getting a math doctorate 00:48:00 unless i've just forgotten it 00:48:10 alise_: what is this Hird function? 00:48:13 oerjan: electronics, filters 00:48:16 uorygl: Not a function; Hird numbers. 00:48:30 What is this Hird numbers? 00:48:51 It started with H = [1; 2, 3, 4, 5, ...] (continued fraction). Now I have successfully generalised it to H_n for natural n = [n; n+1, n+2, n+3, ...]; Mathematica decided to take that further. Definition: 00:49:19 nooga: i mean the answer is obviously yes if it's computable at all 00:49:27 H_n = I(n-1, 2)/I(n, 2); I is the modified Bessel function of the first kind. 00:49:34 Where I(a,b) = I_a(b). 00:49:38 oerjan: equilibrium is an index i in array a that satisfies a[0..i] = a[i..last] 00:49:45 hm... 00:49:54 Known properties: H_n gets close to n as n increases; H_-n = 1/H_(n+1). 00:50:07 i'm just curious how it would look in haskell 00:50:12 nooga: what the heck is a[0..i] and a[i..last] 00:50:23 uorygl: If you want to play along at home, and have a copy of Mathematica: 00:50:25 Hird[n_] := BesselI[n - 1, 2]/BesselI[n, 2] 00:50:25 damn, i'm drunken 00:50:28 drunk 00:50:29 nooga: *drunk 00:50:30 heh :D 00:50:31 lol 00:50:35 eyah 00:50:52 uorygl: In LaTeX, write \mathcal{H}_n. 00:51:11 nooga: i'm sure i could write it if you could explain it, unless it involves fourier transforms or something like that (and even then, but i would probably be too lazy for that) 00:51:18 I don't even know if my university has Mathematics. 00:51:19 oerjan: a[0]+a[1]+a[2]+...+a[i] = a[i]+a[i+1]+a[i+2]+...+a[n] 00:51:23 uorygl: *Mathematica 00:51:35 uorygl: Well, you can also use Wolfram Alpha for most of it. 00:51:41 http://1.618034.com/blog_data/math/formula.5801.png 00:51:42 definition 00:51:47 I did, of course, shamelessly name these after myself. 00:51:56 nooga: aha, so the sum to the left == sum to the right? but ther can only be one such index afaict 00:52:00 Hird's constant/number is H_1. 00:52:01 right 00:52:12 The whole H_n shenanigans is the Hird numbers. 00:52:18 H_72 is the seventy-second Hird number. 00:52:30 Or Hird number 72. 00:52:35 just out of curiosity; isn't the convention to let someone else name stuff after you? 00:53:14 I'd imagine such "convention" has been broken before 00:53:28 coppro: PROBABLY 00:53:36 oerjan: usually i don't talk with doctors of mathematics at night ;D 00:53:37 but fuck it, I'm never going to get another chance at getting something named after me 00:53:40 so who can blame a man? 00:53:55 alise_, so you DO like fame 00:53:58 you're (arguably) in high school... 00:53:58 not as if anyone /cares/ about these numbers, being as they are basically poor approximations to n 00:54:06 Sgeo: of the mathematical sort, sure... 00:54:06 you've got many years ahead of you 00:54:10 coppro: SHUT UP 00:54:21 I can call whatever else I discover the Hird2 number 00:54:21 n! is just a poor approximation to n^n. 00:54:24 plus, doesn't this seem like a waste of a good name? 00:54:28 uorygl: No it isn't :P 00:54:35 Yes it is! 00:54:39 coppro: it's not as if anyone will use this name 00:54:45 this is more of a joke than anything 00:54:59 a+b is also a poor approximation to max(a,b). 00:55:11 oerjan: btw. a[0..i].sum = a[i..-1].sum is Ruby-like notation 00:55:28 uorygl: Everything is a poor approximation to either infinity or 0. 00:55:31 i'm not sure if Ruby has Array#sum method by default 00:55:33 !haskell let equil l = elemIndex 0 (scanl (-) (sum l) l) in equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7] 00:55:35 Damn centrists. 00:55:42 Everything is a poor approximation to both. :P 00:55:46 nooga: It does not. 00:55:47 erm 00:55:59 uorygl: Hey, hey, 0 is not a poor approximation to infinity, and infinity is not a poor approximation to 0. 00:56:11 They are two ends of a circle, infinitesimally distanced; they are GOOD approximations of each other! 00:56:30 So, CASulator! 00:56:37 No, they're really pretty bad approximations of each other. 00:56:44 In what metric are they close? 00:56:52 !haskell let {equil l = elemIndex 0 (scanl (-) (sum l) l)} in equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7] 00:56:52 alise_: oh crat, I could swear that i used it several times, maybe it was defined in my code somewhere 00:56:58 crat :D 00:57:04 crap* crap :D 00:57:27 uorygl: whatever extension of the reals has infinity but not -infinity, is defined as being a circle where 0 is one end and infinity is what you get at the other side or something 00:57:27 hm there must be an actual error there but damn if i can see it 00:57:30 joined at both ends or something? 00:57:36 I don't remember exactly 00:57:40 but there's your metric 00:57:42 oh wait 00:57:49 take the naturals, tie both ends together 00:57:51 there's your number-circle 00:57:57 0 and infinity are right next to each other, Q.E.D. 00:58:24 I don't think so 00:58:31 mod infinit? 00:58:33 !haskell equil l = elemIndex 0 (scanl (-) (sum l) l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7] 00:58:45 ah 00:58:54 !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndex 0 (scanl (-) (sum l) l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7] 00:58:57 Just 6 00:59:01 eek 00:59:12 oh wait duh 00:59:30 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_projective_line ;; so, drop the negatives, and 0 becomes right next to infinity 00:59:34 So there. 00:59:43 hehe 00:59:59 i see problems with computational complexity of that thing 01:00:02 * Sgeo remembers reading about that in Flatterland 01:00:49 Oh, and I sort of fantasized about something like a "number circle" when I was in my pseudomathematician days 01:01:22 Define infinity equal to e^(-pi*sqrt(163)). Boom, 0 and infinity are really close to each other. 01:01:45 But yeah, defining 0 and infinity to be right next to each other is a great way to get them to be right next to each other. 01:01:51 In[90]:= Hird[Hird[Hird[Hird[n]]]] 01:01:51 Out[90]= BesselI[-1 + 01:01:51 BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2]/ 01:01:51 BesselI[BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2], 2]/ 01:01:51 BesselI[BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2]/ 01:01:52 BesselI[BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2], 2], 2]/BesselI[ 01:01:54 BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2]/ 01:01:56 BesselI[BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2], 2]/ 01:01:58 BesselI[BesselI[-1 + BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2]/ 01:01:59 abstract algebra -> interesting, esoteric, pain in the ass when you're studying 01:02:02 BesselI[BesselI[-1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2], 2], 2], 2] 01:02:04 Whoa. 01:02:06 :P 01:02:32 Hm, it does make sense that inf+inf is undefined 01:02:41 uorygl: Well, if we consider the naturals as a line such that one end is 0 and the other end is infinity, 01:02:45 But inf+inf != 2*inf 01:02:50 * Sgeo headaches 01:02:59 Then a reasonable way to be able to answer questions about order on infinity would require some number to be said to be "after" infinity, I guess? 01:03:02 Tie the circle up. 01:03:05 I'm just looking for excuses. 01:03:14 Sgeo: Simple answer: Add infinity, lose mathematical properties. 01:03:40 infinity should behave like 0 01:06:22 !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndex 0 $ zip (scanl (+) 0 l) (scanr (+) 0 l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7] 01:06:44 !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndex 0 $ zipWith (-) (scanl (+) 0 l) (scanr (+) 0 l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7] 01:06:46 Nothing 01:06:46 For infinity inspiration, we should look to projective geometries. 01:06:50 dammit 01:07:03 Extend y = x^2 to the real projective plane, and you'll see what infinity squared is. 01:07:25 !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndex 0 $ zipWith (-) (scanl (+) 0 l) (tail $ scanr (+) 0 l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,7] 01:07:28 Just 3 01:07:36 (Hint: it's infinity.) 01:07:37 nooga: yay! 01:08:43 hm i guess with negative numbers there _could_ be more than one spot 01:09:20 ofc 01:09:27 !haskell import Data.List; equil l = elemIndices 0 $ zipWith (-) (scanl (+) 0 l) (tail $ scanr (+) 0 l); main = print $ equil [1,5,3,-2,2,-2,2,7] 01:09:29 [3,4,5,6] 01:09:37 wait what 01:10:21 huh that's correct i think 01:11:01 i think it is correct.... Also doctor of mathematics is solving my dumb, theoretical problem, hell yeah ;D 01:11:20 i wonder how is the performance of that haskell code 01:11:27 what* 01:11:30 darn 01:12:42 well it builds sums from both the left and right 01:12:59 but it shares the partial sums in each direction 01:13:38 so shouldn't be more than linear 01:14:07 hey oerjan didn't solve /my/ problem 01:14:08 the list from left is probably never physically built 01:14:14 alise_: what problem? 01:14:49 my Hird numbers stuff :P 01:15:08 i think i may have implied i don't know anything about bessel numbers 01:15:14 neither do I :P 01:15:36 people are computers too 01:16:05 Not particularly good computers. I doubt we can easily store GBs of data in memory for random access 01:16:22 In[107]:= FullSimplify[Hird[n] - n] 01:16:23 Out[107]= BesselI[1 + n, 2]/BesselI[n, 2] 01:16:24 v. interesting 01:16:24 oerjan: so it does not build left and right sums for every index? 01:17:11 nooga: yes it does, but it uses recursion on the neighbors to share the work 01:18:02 omg, haskell is so awesome 01:18:49 In[135]:= FullSimplify[Hird[n]] 01:18:49 Out[135]= Hypergeometric0F1Regularized[n, 1]/BesselI[n, 2] 01:18:58 Say it with me now: WUT. 01:19:21 i could say WUT for everything that you've pasted today 01:19:27 Funny, so could I. 01:19:31 Weak Unified Theory! 01:19:32 because this notation means nothing 01:19:37 nooga: basically scanl (+) and scanr (+) are like foldl (+) and foldr (+) (which both sum lists), except they also give you a list of _all_ the partial sums 01:19:53 hi 01:20:08 starting from left and right respectively 01:20:16 I agree with oerjan 01:20:18 way too awesome 01:20:29 nooga: means nothing how 01:20:36 it's either mathematica or just plain ascii mathematical notation 01:20:55 Hypergeometric0F1Regularized 01:21:22 let's ask the guy with math doctorate: how do we define this thing? 01:21:29 I want to learn hypergeometry soon 01:21:30 -!- Patashu has joined. 01:21:35 what the heck is that 01:21:41 Hypergeometric0F1Regularized[a,z] 01:21:41 is the regularized confluent hypergeometric function Subscript[\[Null], 0]Subscript[F, 1](a;z)/\[CapitalGamma](a). 01:21:44 er 01:21:46 to write that nicerly 01:21:50 right, right 01:21:55 0 F1(a;z)/Gamma(a) 01:21:56 * oerjan runs away screaming 01:21:58 where the 0 and the 1 are subscripted 01:21:59 :D 01:22:01 I have no fucking idea either 01:22:14 meh 01:23:33 i have a slight memory of "hypergeometric" from statistics, i think 01:23:36 +1 for me 01:24:00 Dear Google: Sgeo and Geo are not synonyms 01:24:05 regularized 01:24:11 qwhats confluent about it? 01:24:48 who fucking knows?? 01:25:02 Visualize confluence relation \!\( 01:25:03 \(\*SubscriptBox[\(\[InvisiblePrefixScriptBase]\), \(0\)]\) 01:25:03 \(\*SubscriptBox[ 01:25:03 OverscriptBox[\(F\), \(~\)], \(1\)]\)\)\[InvisibleApplication](\[Null];a;z)\[LongEqual] 01:25:03 \!\(\*UnderscriptBox["lim", 01:25:03 RowBox[{"p", "\[Rule]", "\[Infinity]"}]]\)\[ThinSpace]\!\( 01:25:05 \(\*SubscriptBox[\(\[InvisiblePrefixScriptBase]\), \(1\)]\) 01:25:06 02:19 < facsimile> I agree with oerjan 01:25:07 \(\*SubscriptBox[ 01:25:09 OverscriptBox[\(F\), \(~\)], \(1\)]\)\)\[InvisibleApplication](p;a;z/p): 01:25:11 What the fuck Mathematica! 01:25:11 wut? 01:25:17 Admittedly it is rendered on screen. 01:25:20 But it doesn't make any more sense! 01:25:22 the hypergeometric distribution is something like the binomial distribution, except you _don't_ get to pull a number twice. or something like that. 01:26:04 "In probability theory and statistics, the hypergeometric distribution is a discrete probability distribution that describes the number of successes in a sequence of n draws from a finite population without replacement, just as the binomial distribution describes the number of successes for draws with replacement." 01:26:20 close enough, i say 01:29:22 alise_: email Wolfram for explanation 01:29:34 Dear Wolfram, 01:29:37 What the fuck? 01:29:40 Yours sincerely, 01:29:42 Hird. 01:30:13 guy is named after the element that is often found in lightbulbs, how awesome is that?! 01:31:12 guy is named after the famous series of BesselI function numbers, how awesome is that?! 01:32:08 if i could change my surname to Thorium or Ununhexium i would do it immediately 01:32:26 Unununununununium 01:33:16 element 1111111 seems a little unlikely to be synthesized 01:33:36 hm maybe in neutron stars? 01:34:17 btw. what's with LHC? 01:34:34 is there some news about it? 01:35:00 the thing is that there is no news about it 01:35:02 i think 01:35:26 it is presumably doing its ordinary, longtime, boring collection of data 01:35:43 Unununununununununununununununununium 01:35:47 which it will take months if not years to analyze before anyone can make real news out of it 01:36:04 not really boring is it; how many terabytes a second?! 01:36:10 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:36:32 You wouldn't think colliding erections would produce so much data. 01:36:35 well _most_ of it is boring, since interesting collisions are probably very rare :D 01:37:00 Indeed. That often happens with hardons. 01:37:03 once i've known a guy who worked on analyzing CERN's data 01:37:28 they have special grid for this task and he wrote some minor programs for it 01:37:49 nooga: also it is still only working at half its final intended energy, iirc, and will be doing so until end of 2011, when they will take it down to upgrade it. 01:38:12 he said that 500TB is nothing when you're talking about CERN's toys 01:38:20 Slereah works on the LHC iirc 01:38:30 like in france doing some sort of theoretical work 01:38:37 or at least, did work 01:38:43 I doubt anything highly innovative 01:39:15 other friend of mine went to some weir russian CERN equivalent 01:39:21 nooga: conveniently they will be skipping all of 2012 >:) 01:39:38 unless they start it up in december to scare everyone instead 01:39:43 and played with some big, old accelerators and nuclear reactors 01:39:45 What if they forget to skip it? 01:40:09 uorygl: that would mean running at half energy for an extra year 01:40:11 sadly, he remembers only vodka 01:40:19 (Which, like all my other stupid questions, is an intentionally stupid question.) 01:40:36 also, the end of the world, but we don't talk about that. 01:40:58 oerjan: hehe 01:41:45 Currrrrrrrrrrve approximation 01:41:51 um... Linear interpolation! 01:41:54 Best rhyme ever. 01:42:07 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Torun32m_winter.jpg/800px-Torun32m_winter.jpg :D 01:42:12 i've been there 01:42:15 So, for a Computer Science minor, I can take "Database", which looks bad, "System Programming", which looks worse, or "Data Communications", which I have no idea about. 01:42:56 the driver is 386 machine with DOS on board 01:42:58 The topics of the latter two classes are supposed to be abstracted out of sight. :P 01:43:46 and some mainframe salvaged from some soviet submarine does the data analysis 01:43:50 So. 01:44:06 * alise_ wonders about a glyph being ((xs,ys),(xe,ye),c). 01:44:08 Here's the topic for Data Communications: "An introduction to data communications techniques, particularly as applied to computer networks. Physical media and devices, data link and network protocols, and other data communications topics will be studied." 01:44:18 Physical media? Neat, I get to learn what a hard drive is. 01:44:18 It's a line from (xs,ys) to (xe,ye), curved by c. 01:44:27 So we can have negative/positive curves for inwards/outwards curves. 01:44:36 I guess other devices could be interesting... as could network protocols. 01:44:45 And 1 would be a semicircle, say. 01:44:48 And the other two classes look icky, so I guess I'm taking this one. 01:44:51 With -1 being the other half of a semicircle. 01:44:56 Coords are from 0 to 1. 01:44:56 uorygl: I've studied automatics and robotics, everything looks even worse there 01:45:41 alise_: (xs,ys)---c-->(xe,ye) except ---c--> is an actual curve with c above it? 01:45:46 The class I took this semester, "Computer Organization", was much more boring than the textbook suggests. 01:45:52 oerjan: something like that I guess 01:46:02 uorygl: studies are boring 01:46:04 Here's a semicircle: 01:46:04 (0, 1/2) ->@1 (1/2, 1) 01:46:04 (1, 1/2) ->@1 (1/2, 0) 01:46:05 But I've already ranted about that, so I won't rant about it again. 01:46:08 Maybe coords from -1 to 1 is better. 01:46:13 A lot of things seem to do that. So I will. 01:46:20 nooga: aren't classes pretty much all about studying? 01:46:30 that's right 01:46:47 Then a circle is: 01:46:48 (-1, 0) ->@1 (0, 1) 01:46:48 ( 1, 0) ->@1 (0, -1) 01:46:57 I wonder whether this is expressive enough to draw glyphs and stuff. 01:47:06 i'm trying to write OSes, compilers and other shit that would give me credits without going to classes 01:47:08 Might also want some sort of filling, of course. 01:47:13 So, line thickness, basically. 01:47:26 Filled circular stuff might be hard? 01:47:27 Dunno. 01:47:44 MS Paint or what, alise_ 01:47:52 lol. 01:47:54 except this is vector 01:48:05 Glyphs are pretty easy with Bezier curves, aren't they? 01:48:11 and the idea is to be able to define fonts renderable quickly on, say, a device with an embedded cpu 01:48:24 I don't think doing full bezier curves in realtime is feasible on a low powered cpu lke that 01:48:30 this is for the CASulator 01:48:37 Bezier curves are pretty easy, aren't they? 01:48:41 They're just polynomials. 01:48:45 it's definately possible 01:49:01 In realtime, though, rendering a bunch of text? 01:49:05 yep 01:49:15 alise_: if c is a curve from 0 to 1 in the complex plane, then z1 ->@c z2 could mean the curve d(t) = z1 + (z2-1)c(t) 01:49:28 A degree-4 polynomial can be evaluated at a single point using 4 additions and 3 multiplications. 01:49:38 *d(t) = z1 + (z2-z1)c(t) 01:49:43 oerjan: cool. and? 01:50:07 it is an awesome idea for using XMOS 01:50:08 alise_: then it's just rotation and scaling in the unique possible way 01:50:18 uorygl: Mine sounds easier to write glyphs in by hand, though :P 01:50:28 So if you have a 640x480 screen, and evaluate a polynomial for every five pixels, that's 3*640*480/5 = 184,320 operations. 01:50:32 oerjan: so it's fast, basically? 01:50:34 That's pretty easy. 01:50:35 :P 01:50:35 XMOS 01:50:40 which is something postscript provides, i recall 01:50:49 postscript, bah 01:51:55 Of course, it may just be better to use bitmap fonts if we're using a regular calculator display. 01:52:19 Could use E-Ink :-) 01:52:27 But nah; response time. 01:52:37 postscript has a translation + matrix iirc, so it can also do shears and stuff 01:52:49 but still linear/affine 01:52:59 Looks like it's impossible for me to take the class I want to take next year. No matter; I'll just take it a different year. 01:53:06 just multiplicatino and addition 01:53:09 *ion 01:53:21 uorygl: i can't even choose my classes here 01:53:28 WHAT? 01:53:48 and it turns out that they try to put EVERYTHING in our heads and then it gets to a point that we know NOTHING 01:53:50 That seems kind of strange. 01:54:00 because it's Poland ;D 01:54:13 Whew, it's only Poland. 01:54:25 You forgot Poland. 01:54:38 I forgot that Poland is part of Scandinavia! 01:54:48 * oerjan swats uorygl -----### 01:54:51 :D 01:54:56 fint 01:55:18 No, I didn't forget anything, it's not in Scandinavia at all. 01:55:24 we love our poles, but they are _not_ scandinavians. unless they move here permanently, at least. 01:55:36 What if they move there temporarily? 01:55:55 then they are guest workers, usually 01:55:59 the Poles here do all the work 01:56:03 nooga: you should come and do the work 01:56:10 in norway too 01:56:12 Where are you now, alise_? 01:56:13 shut up ;D 01:56:51 uk 01:56:51 ook 01:56:52 oerjan: ah, well, difference: we /don't/ love our poles 01:56:53 THEY TAKK OOR JOOBS 01:56:55 I'd expected you to be somewhere else by now. 01:57:02 anyway the magnetic poles cannot move here permanently 01:57:08 uorygl: A bit naive, to think moving is so easy. 01:57:21 alise_: I don't take your jobs 01:57:36 Never said it was my opinion :P 01:57:47 Moving is very easy. Just put your laptop in your backpack and drive somewhere. 01:57:58 alise_: Much like Mexicans. 01:58:04 DER TAKING ER JORBS 01:58:07 alise_: norway still has the lowest unemployment in europe. although they're probably shuffling some data around to make it lower, like everywhere else. 01:58:32 oerjan: my brother is in norway, he's studying your language AFAIR 01:58:35 uorygl: Here, try and find accommodation in a country you're not in. Now, go. 01:58:45 * uorygl begins. 01:58:58 Sweden has a nice-looking web site, so I'll start there. 01:59:07 and I know many Norwegians from our medical university, here in Poznan 01:59:46 alise_: i hear the magnetic poles may be shifting towards europe, actually 01:59:51 sweet 01:59:59 Let's see, do I want to work or study? 02:00:02 alise_: I found accomodation in Scotland pretty fast 02:00:12 nooga: how permanent? 02:00:23 nooga: Where from? 02:00:26 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2). 02:00:34 3 weeks, but i think it would be fully possible to stay much longer 02:00:52 the problem was it costed something like 600 quid a month 02:00:55 specifically because moving /twice/ sounds unfun. 02:01:25 I almost resisted the urge to do this: 02:01:29 `calc 600 quid in USD 02:01:30 dollars? At todays exchange rates (2nd Dec 08) £50 = $74.75 ... US dollars? its your moms butt ... US dollars? $847.210 (as of August 4th) ... 02:01:34 Darn. 02:01:40 `calc 600 GBP in USD 02:01:41 600 British pounds = 888.48 U.S. dollars 02:01:52 So, CASulator! Someone be interested? Please? 02:01:54 That's somewhat pricy. 02:01:58 Wait, where did "its your moms butt" come from? 02:02:03 ...xD 02:02:15 annd i'm not working in the UK so it was a little bit expensive 02:02:25 `calc 600 GBP in ZWL 02:02:27 alise_, you're going to make a physical CASculator? 02:02:27 futuresource.quote.com/reference/symlist.jsp?print=true - [37]Cached - [38]Similar 02:02:34 *Darn*./ 02:02:40 "Moving to someone in Sweden"? How does someone move to someone in Sweden? 02:02:43 Sgeo: I want to! Probably I'd write code for an embedded CPU and simulate it on a PC first. 02:02:56 Sounds interesting 02:03:11 But unless you're planning on making a CAS from scratch, what are you going to use? 02:03:47 Oh wait, it's not going to just be porting a regular CAS to an embedded CPU, is it 02:04:01 02:59 < pikhq> nooga: Where from? 02:04:06 ? 02:04:16 Yeah, making my own. 02:04:22 Especially as I'll need to code with the HW in mind. 02:04:54 `calc 888.48 * 300000000000000 02:04:56 888.48 * 300 000 000 000 000 = 2.66544 × 10^17 02:05:17 2.66*10^17 Zimbabwe dollars a month. 02:05:21 ZWD works iirc 02:05:23 also is that new or old? 02:05:23 Now *that's* expensive. 02:05:28 new as in just before being obsoleted 02:06:23 That's just before they introduced the 4th dollar. 02:07:14 The 4th dollar got up to an exchange rate of 255.19 to the USD before being suspended. 02:07:57 Zimbabwe seems to be really bad at handling their currencies. 02:08:57 You see, their solution to the government not being able to fund municipal projects was to print more money. 02:09:19 And they just keep doing that? 02:09:28 Why do they do that? 02:09:36 Mugabe is not too bright. 02:10:05 * uorygl nods. 02:10:15 Why don't they kick him out? 02:10:31 you don't think they've _tried_? 02:10:33 They tried. 02:10:52 Well, what's stopping them? 02:11:14 `calc 960*12 02:11:15 960 * 12 = 11 520 02:11:18 hmm 02:11:31 `calc 11520*4.65 02:11:33 11 520 * 4.65 = 53 568 02:11:33 Mugabe is heavily armed and capable of rigging elections. 02:11:53 600 gbp huh 02:12:15 Huh. 02:12:55 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:14:08 sleep time 02:14:10 good night 02:15:06 * Sgeo looks at someone else's computer through his phone 02:15:12 Mugabe's first action was to seize all the land from white people and reassign it to black people, in an attempt to undo the harm caused by colonialism. 02:15:20 For obvious reasons, this collapsed Zimbabwe's economy. 02:15:26 Mugabe is fucking insan. 02:15:28 *insane 02:15:31 Awesome. 02:15:49 Would you say awesome if you were one of the victims of his regime's anti-white violence...? 02:15:56 I suppose people can always vote with their feet... or not? 02:16:11 When you're that poor? 02:16:14 How do you propose to do that? 02:16:16 He's done such land reassignments in 2000 as well. 02:16:22 Face it; real inescapable fascism does exist. 02:16:39 The only way to end it is intervention or natural eventual collapse. 02:16:46 Needless to say, assigning farmaldn to people who don't farm is a completely and utterly *retarded* idea. 02:16:47 * uorygl nods. 02:17:02 Farmland, even. 02:17:24 SO GUYZ LET'S TALK ABOUT CASULATOR 02:17:27 I wonder if any countries pay for travel there. 02:17:57 There's travel bans. That close enough? :P 02:18:19 "Want to come to our country? We'll send an armed helicopter to you and pick you up!" 02:18:25 I'm confident that that's too good to be true. :P 02:18:28 I guess the TI-Nspire CAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-Nspire) is the closest thing to the CASulator. 02:18:38 nobody even said good night 02:18:41 srew you ;[ 02:18:49 SCREW* ;[ 02:18:52 Is somebody leaving? 02:18:59 Oh, you are. 02:19:03 Good night, nooga! 02:19:06 .... 02:19:16 Oh, and 25% of the country has AIDS, because AIDS is apparently a western plot, and those condoms make things worse. 02:19:23 g'ni' nooga 02:19:43 Yeah, Zimbabwe sounds like a really backwards place. 02:20:15 It's Africa. The end of colonialism there happened in such a way that *everything* got royally fucked up. 02:20:55 Perhaps we should bring back colonialism. 02:20:55 Like most other places, really. 02:21:05 WHY DOES NOBODY LIKE CASULATOR 02:21:05 No, that'll make things worse. 02:22:02 Mugabe's first action was to seize... <-- well not the first, but maybe the first really stupid one. he'd had powers for decades before that 02:22:14 oerjan: Mmm, right. 02:22:45 How do independence movements get started? 02:22:45 I remember that vividly because it's the first action of his that is literally the *antithesis* of a good idea. 02:23:10 uorygl: Most of the time? People with guns that are pissed. 02:23:13 Armies don't simply form because a bunch of people want to be in an army. 02:23:34 No, armies form because they feel that they *must* fight. 02:24:41 How do they get their resources, and who leads them? 02:25:15 Any way they can, and whoever was both lucky enough and sufficiently charismatic to lead them. 02:25:38 * uorygl nods. 02:26:31 And how well it ends up is, well, a crapshoot. 02:26:45 pikhq: i occasionally see Botswana (zimbabwe's next door neighbor) mentioned as one place in africa which is _not_ fucked up. at least as far as government is concerned. 02:26:58 You can end up with the US, or you can end up with North Korea. 02:27:01 :P 02:27:02 functional democracy and all 02:27:32 How well would a revolution work nowadays, given that you have all this war technology? 02:27:49 mugabe would crush any oppression 02:27:53 oerjan: Oh, yeah. Botswana has a stable government and everything. 02:27:56 you simply can't get guns. and if you do, mugabe has more. 02:28:26 also 16% of Botswana has AIDS apprently 02:28:58 there's always something :( 02:29:08 Yes, that's because AIDS is just plain *rampant* in all of Africa. 02:29:09 Seems you could just program your technology to only work in the hands of the government. 02:29:35 yeah i was reading the botswana article and i was 02:29:36 all 02:29:37 Boom, the revolution guys have no technology, and they lose. 02:29:42 gee whiz this place does have a good government as these things go 02:29:43 "LOL AIDS" 02:29:44 oh 02:30:15 alise_: Having a lot of AIDS is pretty good compared to most of the rest of Africa. 02:30:26 tru 02:30:33 After all, otherwise you have a lot of AIDS *and* everything else that could be wrong. 02:30:47 Africa sounds like it has a lot of stuff wrong with it. 02:31:14 uorygl: Colonialism ended in the 50s, and it ended roughly by "Fuck it, we're just leaving". 02:31:27 Bunch of war and shit, and voila. Africa. 02:31:28 What a great way to end colonialism. 02:31:45 "Bunch of war and shit". 02:31:46 I wonder how expensive it would be to invade Africa again. 02:32:00 You know, glossing over the details. 02:32:07 alise_: Yeah. :) 02:32:14 There's lots of them! 02:32:47 This thought actually ran through my head: "Let's invade Africa and govern them well until their skin--wait, skin color isn't actually determined by prosperity." 02:32:59 uorygl: ... 02:33:52 uorygl: I believe you are insane. 02:36:04 How's about we just make South Korea an island as a show of power and call it a day? 02:37:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:38:02 Huh. If you're a dual citizen, and you go to prison in one country, can the other country generally pluck you out if they want to? 02:38:31 I doubt it. 02:38:47 uorygl: No. 02:38:53 Discussions with pikhq lead me to believe that even as a purely British citizen in another country, the only way Britain can touch me whatsoever is if I committed a crime on British soil. 02:39:01 If I have, then they can apply for extradition. 02:39:16 So I'd assume that someone with /dual/ citizenship would have an even stronger case to stay in the country they reside in. 02:39:28 Well, I mean, like... 02:39:53 alise_: They can also petition for your release *from* jail if they feel that the jailing is in some way unfair. 02:39:59 I commit a crime in Country A, so I go to prison there. Country B, however, doesn't consider this a crime, and would be willing to have me as a citizen. 02:40:06 pikhq: Well that's nice :P 02:40:08 And stuff. 02:40:09 Such petitioning can actually get pretty serious. 02:40:16 uorygl: No, that would not work. 02:40:23 In fact, if you escaped to country B, country A /could/ apply for extradition. 02:40:30 Unless the crime was serious it would be denied, though. 02:40:36 (Probably.) 02:40:55 I believe that extradition generally requires the thing to be considered a crime in whatever country you're to be extradited from. 02:41:08 Typically, yes. 02:41:20 But the point is, no, you couldn't escape prison by going to another country, I don't think. 02:41:26 It depends on the extradition treaty. 02:42:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:42:42 What, for my statement? 02:42:51 No, uorygl's. 02:42:53 -!- facsimile has quit (Quit: facsimile). 02:43:32 alise_: You could escape prison by going to a country without extradition treaties. 02:43:44 Most such countries suck *ass* though. 02:43:57 ZIMBABWE! 02:44:01 And it comes full-circle. 02:44:03 Clearly, the thing to do is install an app on my iPhone that will teleport me to the country of my desire. 02:45:41 it was rejected by apple sorry 02:46:34 Also, one can avoid a death sentence from, say, the US, by going to a country that doesn't extradite unless there is *0* chance of a death sentence happening. 02:46:47 (Mexico, Canada, and the EU are all like this) 02:47:04 I didn't know that. That's nice of those countries. 02:47:45 Human rights laws mandate it. 02:48:27 So... apparently [i.e., reddit IAmA credibility] the guy who designed the current American flag was a child abuser. 02:48:29 Michigan doesn't have death sentences. Unless you commit a crime in a national park or something. 02:48:34 http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/c0ua8/i_am_the_sister_of_a_man_who_was_sexually_abused/ 02:48:35 Hey, the US has no extradition treaties with Taiwan, because *you can't have treaties with a country you don't recognise the existence of*. 02:48:39 Bwahahahah. 02:48:45 The US doesn't recognise the existence of Taiwan???? 02:48:51 Srsly? 02:49:01 alise_: Recognising Taiwan and China are mutually exclusive. 02:49:15 As each claims the other's territory as their own. 02:49:19 So if I find some product that says "MADE IN TAIWAN", it's a lie? 02:49:22 Are they? Just recognise China-sans-Taiwan and Taiwan-sans-China, and if the China don't like it, sucks to be them. 02:49:27 i.e., only the relevant territories from both 02:49:59 Acer, Asus, HTC, ... 02:50:05 China will not have *any* relations with any organization that recognises Taiwan as an independent state. 02:50:09 What are they listed as being in whatever database the US as? 02:50:11 China? 02:50:43 They are listed as Chinese Taipei, Taiwan, Formosa, the Republic of China, etc. 02:51:12 Does that mean China will not threaten them? 02:51:43 Like most countries, we go to *great* lengths to have informal relations with them while making it *perfectly* clear to the PRoC that we are merely having discussions with the rebels. 02:51:55 Not recognising their sovereignity. 02:52:02 Weird. 02:52:05 Does that mean China will not threaten them? 02:52:05 :D 02:52:17 You can't declare war against a country you don't recognise! 02:52:17 This includes the UN. 02:53:33 alise_: but they wouldn't consider it a war against another country 02:53:49 just an internal chinese matter 02:54:09 no, but 02:54:14 (they = PRC) 02:54:19 if USA recognises Taiwain, then China does-not-recognise USA 02:54:23 therefore China cannot-declare-war-on USA 02:54:49 Amusingly, the ROC treads carefully to *not* declare itself an independent state. 02:54:58 They claim the same borders they had in the 40s. 02:55:33 incidentally, both chinas are members of the world trade organization 02:55:50 Headachetastic. 02:56:08 so taiwan _does_ have mandated free trade with the US and many other countries 02:56:31 alise_: The US is required by law to defend Taiwan if the PRoC attacks. 02:56:32 how can china be a member of WTO if WTO recognises Taiwain? 02:56:40 that's against the axiom of China-Taiwain calculus 02:56:42 *Taiwan 02:56:45 Because of this, we have a permanently deployed *fleet* around Taiwan. 02:56:54 pikhq: Just... discussing. With the rebels. 02:57:00 alise_: they're technically not recognizing taiwan as a _country_, just a special region, i think 02:57:01 Our army. Is discussing with the rebels. At their location. 02:57:07 Yes. 02:57:07 Permanently. 02:57:21 does the chinese government ever exercise any actual power in taiwain? 02:57:23 *taiwan 02:57:26 can't think how they'd go about doing it 02:57:34 alise_: The WTO deals with *trading entities*. Not countries. :P 02:57:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:58:06 And the PROC government maintains no power over the Taiwan. Just the ROC. 02:58:36 alise_: on the reverse side, greenland and the færøyer are not part of the EU, despite being part of the kingdom of denmark 02:58:51 Faeroeroaeroaeryer. 02:59:07 i wasn't even going to try to remember the english spelling. 02:59:21 heh like that's easier 02:59:26 oerjan: The EU treaties generally don't apply to out-of-Europe holdings of member countries. 02:59:45 Also, aren't those considered seperate countries which *happen* to be also part of the Kingdom of Denmark? 02:59:57 Kinda like how Australia, Canada, and the UK all have the same Queen? 02:59:58 pikhq: færøyene are in europe, most definitely, and i think greenland was in EU, then voted to secede 03:00:10 [[Polish pop star faces two years' prison for blasphemy; made negative statement about the Bible in TV interview.]] 03:00:11 lol nooga 03:00:31 they do have some free trade agreement though 03:00:35 iirc 03:01:19 http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/c1je9/polish_pop_star_faces_two_years_prison_for/ ;; oh 03:01:24 Ahahah. 03:01:47 Taiwan's membership in the WTO is as the "Separate Customs Territory of Taiwan, Penghu, Kimmen and Matsu". 03:02:29 pikhq: they may be considered so _now_, but i'm not sure they were so at the time denmark joined the EU 03:02:36 Mendark. 03:02:44 Romething is sotten in the state of Mendark. 03:02:53 greenland got a greater autonomy agreement just last year (or was it this winter?) 03:02:58 ((I hear it's country matters)) 03:03:58 * pikhq notes that Shakespeare must have been a great fan of puns 03:05:26 alise_: there have been debates about removing norway's blasphemy law recently (i'm not even sure if it's been repealed or not, but i _think_ not). it's been a sleeping law for half a century, though. 03:05:43 pikhq: "country matters" is hardly a pun! 03:05:56 More like pretty darn close to an outright uttering of a pretty serious expletive :-) 03:05:57 alise_: Cunt-ry matters. 03:06:04 Gee, you don't say. 03:06:05 Yes. 03:06:08 Mmm, cursing. 03:06:38 I find it completely bizzare that the ROC *can't* change the regions that it claims. 03:06:46 (Incidentally in the Royal Shakespeare Company production with David Tennant and Patrick Stewart that was broadcast on BBC2 on Boxing Day (-- 3 hours without interruptions, sheesh --) Tennant basically pronounces it exactly as "cuntrrrrry matters".) 03:07:06 (Which, you know, sort of offended my innate British sensibilities. How dare they put this filth on the BBC? :P) 03:07:18 It they reduced their claims to just the area they control, the PROC will consider this a declaration of independence and go to war. 03:07:33 * oerjan wonders if ROC claims tibet or not 03:07:52 Note that the *PROC* is the government that should be declaring independence: they're the bastards who revolted against the ROC! 03:07:57 oerjan: Yes. 03:08:16 oerjan: Because they did in the 40s, and to not claim it would cause war. 03:08:21 Heh, Norway has a blasphemy law? 03:09:07 uorygl: well a blasphemy paragraph in a law (the law of punishment, probably) 03:09:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ROC_Administrative_and_Claims.png 03:09:56 Whoa, Finland has a blasphemy law, and they actually use it. 03:10:00 pikhq: i wasn't sure when china started claiming tibet, they only invaded in the 50s didn't they, but i guess they only consider tibet's former independence a temporary lapse... 03:10:01 lol the ROC just claims everything 03:10:06 WTF, Finland? 03:10:12 there should be a country that just claims the entire world 03:10:23 Sealand should do it. 03:10:24 :P 03:10:26 and so "always" claimed it 03:10:27 I'm sure many nomics do that. 03:10:43 In Finland, section 10 of chapter 17 of the penal code relate to blasphemy.[10][11] Unsuccessful attempts were made to rescind the section in 1914, 1917, 1965, 1970, and 1998.[12] 03:10:43 In 1969, Finland prosecuted Harro Koskinen for publishing a picture of his painting called Pig Messiah, which featured a crucified pig. For violating the sensibilities of a religion, Koskinen had to pay a fine.[13][14] 03:10:44 In 2008, the issue of religious sensibilities arose again. On 30 May 2008, Tampere District Court sentenced Seppo Lehto to two years and four months imprisonment for offences which involve hate speech and blasphemy. The court found Lehto guilty of: defamation, incitement of an ethnic group, and violating the sensibilities of a religion. The judgment said that Lehto had violated the sensibilities of Islam because he had disseminated, with insulting intentions 03:10:44 No, better. 03:10:45 , material which openly blasphemes and desecrates that which Muslims deem holy.[14] Outraged at the punishment of Lehto, Jussi Halla-aho, a Helsinki councilman, posted to the Internet in 2008 some controversial remarks about Islam and about Somalis. Those remarks induced the Helsinki District Court to order Halla-aho to trial.[15] 03:10:48 *North Korea* should do it. 03:11:13 "We declare war on everyone else! MWAHAHAHAH!" 03:11:28 I think I did that in Civilization IV once. 03:11:32 (Yes, once.) 03:11:45 I don't remember what happened afterward; I think I got bored and quit. 03:12:50 New Canada said that the only true Canadas are Old Canada and New Canada, and that all other entities using that name are misguided. 03:13:01 (New Canada was the barely-played-at-all successor to Canada.) 03:13:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CountriesRecognizingROC.png Such a headache. 03:13:24 I don't really remember Old and New Canada. 03:13:36 Old Canada was IRCNomic, which was a right fun time apart from that UPPERCASE bullshit. 03:13:42 And, well, everything else AnMaster did. 03:13:57 New Canada I believe you played for perhaps three posts, maybe 1.5 serious. 03:14:07 pikhq: um, what's the legend on that? 03:14:57 strong green = embassy 03:14:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China 03:15:03 i think? 03:16:44 Strong green = embassy, light green = "just talking with the rebels, friend PROC." 03:16:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_the_Republic_of_China#List_of_countries_with_diplomatic_relations_with_the_ROC 03:17:17 that legend claims light green = diplomatic relations but not embassy 03:17:24 presumably consulates? 03:17:30 Unofficial diplomatic relations. 03:17:42 Things like the "American Institute in Taiwan". 03:18:08 Which is itself a *massive* clusterfuck. 03:18:36 The American Institute is a US corporation, wholy owned by the US government, and staffed by federal employees. 03:18:39 And diplomats. 03:19:23 Like I said, *great* lengths to claim we're just "talking with the rebels". 03:19:54 Let's just buy out China, Zimbabwe and North Korea. 03:19:57 Yes, buy out. 03:20:14 China sounds really expensive. 03:20:18 Really, really expensive. 03:20:25 Like, the most expensive single object in the world. 03:20:30 Except it's *multiple objects*. 03:20:57 uorygl: Underneath China there is an inscription in the earth: "MADE IN CHINA" 03:21:15 So it's probably cheap tat. 03:21:26 the wall of china is basically the edge of the M 03:21:32 Just like the inscription on the International Space Station. 03:21:33 the only part that shows 03:21:51 And the inscription on me that says "Made in the U.S.A.". 03:21:54 * uorygl displays his ear. 03:22:14 Hawt. 03:22:30 Say, what laws apply on the ISS? 03:22:49 I'd say each person is bound by the laws of whatever country they're from. 03:23:06 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/ISS_26.07.07.jpg which part is the ISS? 03:23:12 alise_: I think we actually *could* buy out North Korea quite feasibly. 03:23:34 -!- augur has joined. 03:23:40 pikhq: except north korea would bail out of the agreement, _after_ taking the money 03:23:55 * oerjan whistles innocently 03:24:18 Gee, I don't remember the ISS looking quite so acular. 03:24:20 then we shoot them 03:24:22 (with a really big gun) 03:24:35 I don't think the line is meant to be the ISS 03:24:35 WHATS THIS ABOUT LINGUISTICS? 03:24:39 `define acular 03:24:41 that would be ridiculous, surely 03:24:41 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 03:24:41 * ketorolac tromethamine: nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (trade names Acular and Toradol) that is administered only intramuscularly \ [13]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ 03:24:48 I think uorygl just made up "acular" 03:24:53 alise_: The ISS is under *very confusing* jurisdiction. 03:24:53 Yes, I'm afraid I did. 03:24:54 you don't say. 03:25:01 However, someone who knows enough Latin will surely know what it means. 03:25:06 You might go ask in ##latin. 03:25:08 pikhq: Orally? (O'Rly) 03:25:29 Anyway, as for the ISS, we should ask an astronaut. 03:26:05 Who should we ask? Mike? Jeff? 03:26:08 it would be fun if countries were on this stonkin' great big global country-stock market 03:26:09 maybe they're an anarchosyndicalist commune. 03:26:16 and you could buy out countries and stuff 03:26:20 oerjan: AWESOME 03:26:27 /and/ they live in zero gravity, too 03:26:33 what's not to like??? 03:26:36 "each partner shall retain jurisdiction and control over the elements it registers and over personnel in or on the Space Station who are its nationals." 03:27:17 So... The *modules* are under the jurisdiction of whoever made them, but the *astronauts* are under the jurisdiction of their country of origin. 03:27:55 Which means food can change jurisdiction by being eaten. 03:28:09 It would be a lot easier to just have a bunch of National Space Stations. 03:28:17 What jurisdiction is the resulting feces? 03:28:31 uorygl: Or just make it an anarchosyndicalist commune. 03:28:34 I haven't a clue. 03:28:40 uorygl: Or just make it an *independent nation*. 03:28:41 :D 03:28:49 But each National Space Station would be staffed by approximately half a person. 03:29:09 pikhq: Wow. 03:29:10 * uorygl goes to howmanypeopleareinspacerightnow.com to see how many people are in space right now. 03:29:15 Call the nation Space; define it to include everything except Earth. 03:29:23 YES. 03:29:30 We are at war with Space. 03:29:34 This has the interesting consequence that Earth is not in Space. 03:29:46 Six. And there are five space agencies contributing to it? 03:29:52 Each National Space Station would get 1.2 staff members. 03:30:06 Earth would be an enclave of Space, though. 03:30:09 uorygl: One such space agency is the ESA. 03:30:20 pikhq: I wonder what diplomatic relationships with Space would look like. 03:30:21 `define aglet 03:30:23 * metal or plastic sheath over the end of a shoelace or ribbon \ * ornamental tagged cord or braid on the shoulder of a uniform \ [14]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 03:30:33 Would it recognise Taiwan or China??? 03:30:43 Yes, this means some modules are under 11 nation's jurisdiction simultaneously. 03:30:57 apparently aculus means aglet, metal tag, so acular would mean looking like a metal tag, presumably 03:31:01 Space would not allow people to recognize China as an independent nation. 03:31:05 *nations' 03:31:23 By 'acular', I meant 'needle-shaped'. 03:31:23 What's Space's GDP???? 03:32:22 Well, I know what its GNP is. Zero; nobody is a citizen of outer space. 03:32:47 You know, a lot easier than making Space an independent nation would be making the ocean an independent nation. 03:32:51 The United States of The Ocean. 03:33:20 That would be awesome. 03:33:42 In fact, define the Ocean to include most of Space, too, under that whatsitsname doctrine down to hell and up to heaven property law thing. 03:34:07 So basically, start at any point in the ocean, and travel outwards. Every point travelled to by this procedure is part of the Ocean. 03:34:19 The thing is, though, Earth rotates. 03:34:45 Then what's part of the Ocean changes as that happens. 03:34:56 Weird. 03:35:38 Eh. The plates move too, and stuff. 03:35:42 Although a little bit slower. 03:35:47 Man, whole galaxies shift jurisdiction daily. 03:36:30 Now define everything not in the Ocean to be part of the nation Outer Space. 03:36:34 Outer because it's outside of the Ocean. 03:36:38 That must be confusing for people living in those galaxies. 03:37:00 uorygl: especially since they won't be told for millions of years 03:37:14 One of the two recognises Taiwan; the other recognises China. Since which parts of space recognise who changes quite a lot, due to changing jurisdiction, just schedule your diplomatic meetings correctly and a landmass can have full relations with both. 03:37:17 "Let's see. It's 4:20 PM; that means we're currently in a nation where it's legal to smoke pot." 03:37:59 I always thought it was 4:20 am. 03:38:17 That's the *other* nation where it's legal to smoke pot. 03:38:18 I guess I couldn't imagine stoners being up at such a normal hour as 4:20 pm. 03:39:14 Anyway, smoking pot is legal in both the Ocean and Outer Space. 03:41:30 truth 03:42:22 alise_: are there any^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwhat's the best weighted graph module in Haskell? 03:43:04 Something in http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html 03:43:18 http://hackage.haskell.org/package/fgl, http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/pkg-list.html#Graphs 03:43:28 apart from that, dunno 03:43:37 aw 03:43:59 http://haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.12.1/html/libraries/containers-0.3.0.0/Data-Graph.html 03:45:26 Data.Graph is unweighted 03:45:27 If you don't all talk about CASulator I'm going to be very sad. 03:45:34 coppro: I gave you two other links. 03:45:38 I know 03:45:43 I'm going through them one by one 03:45:46 Ctrl+F "graph" gave tons of links on the pkg-list; not sure how many are relevant. 03:46:32 irritating; so is the fgl 03:47:36 This is what a classmate I'm trying to help copied off the blackboard. I can;t make much sense of it: http://pastie.org/private/afxzkbjoimumy3q4tk4kw 03:48:09 coppro: Just write your own? 03:48:12 It's easy in Haskell... 03:48:18 yeah, I'm just lazy 03:48:24 Sgeo: they have a broken mind. Ignore them 03:48:27 coppro: easier to write than find 03:48:35 what sort of programmer would I be if I wasn't? 03:48:49 just keep changing the data structure to be more general and abstract until the functions on them are so trivial they're barely even worth being called functions 03:48:53 then you will have reached the epitome of laziness 03:48:59 alise_, he swears that this is what was on the board 03:49:10 and they should all be point-free, right ;) 03:49:19 because all you do is write down the most trivial naive definition you can think of, write down the obvious operations, then repeatedly apply "strip data constructors and add type parameters" 03:49:21 coppro: probably. 03:49:23 Sgeo: he's wrong. 03:49:33 just like "oh it really did say Error 43.4" no it said 455.3 03:49:43 alise_, or maybe the teacher's insane? 03:49:48 less likely. 03:49:54 more likely people are idiots 03:51:24 I should really make a nice little editor sometime. 03:56:36 Hey, I don't think anyone has named an editor iv or x yet. :-) 04:06:21 -!- adu has joined. 04:08:25 -!- soupdragon has joined. 04:09:05 soupdragon: whoa the name is back 04:09:19 hey 04:09:49 hey 04:11:08 http://www.ted.com/talks/ray_kurzweil_on_how_technology_will_transform_us.html 04:11:17 why is the topic backwards? 04:11:25 There is one fact in this talk I love 04:11:44 When he mentions the human genome project -- just listen it's brilliant 04:11:59 adu: unicode right-to-left marker, i think 04:13:24 oh, so are you saying my client doesn't recognize it? 04:13:32 adu, actually, it does 04:14:02 no _my_ client doesn't recognize it. i found out from the logs. 04:14:17 oh, so without the R2L marker, the topic would look right? 04:14:25 yeah 04:14:38 then why not remove the R2L marker? 04:15:15 it's a free channel. i cannot _type_ unicode either. 04:15:53 adu, try selecting the topic 04:16:01 just as long as you keep the log link 04:17:27 this is what I get for the hexdump: http://pastebin.com/7mm1p5Q1 04:17:57 what is "E2 80 AE"? 04:18:41 i don't know, but the topic should be in UTF-8 encoding 04:19:28 E280AE = \u202E = right-to-left override 04:19:31 yup 04:21:06 -!- adu has set topic: I love Unicode in my topics. | 僕ãŒå•é¡Œã«ãƒ¦ãƒ‹ã‚³ãƒ¼ãƒ‰ãŒå¥½ãã ã€‚ | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 04:21:39 that's better 04:22:23 does it look the same on your client? 04:24:04 here's the new hexdump: http://pastebin.com/xLsrUVYV 04:24:39 o BTW, i love ted talks 04:25:03 likewisee 04:26:02 ted++ 04:26:14 adu: Looks *exactly* the same in my client. 04:26:32 ok, then your client doesn't recognize R2L overrides 04:26:44 it looks much better in my client 04:26:59 Indeed, my terminal does not. 04:27:25 gah editors suck 04:27:27 oh no I think I linked the wrong one 04:27:28 Some "unicode terminal". 04:27:31 i hayte them 04:27:40 http://www.ted.com/talks/ray_kurzweil_announces_singularity_university.html 04:27:46 that is the one I should have linked earlier 04:27:51 Kurzweil is a crackpot, be careful. 04:28:13 Especially how he keeps reprinting his book, setting forward his failed predictions a few years, but strangely somehow always within his expected lifetime... 04:28:33 He's clever, yes. But he's not someone you want to go to for a balanced, sane look at the singularity or related topics. 04:29:44 listen to what he says about the human genome project, that is something I had been wondering about myself for a long time 04:29:49 the first thing I saw when i came in here was ".scipot ym ni edocinU evol I" 04:29:58 http://fakescience.tumblr.com/ 04:30:05 soupdragon: no Flash or speakers, sorry. 04:30:51 "The coffee bean has a distinctive smell that makes you forget how painful it is to be awake." 04:30:55 this site is the best! 04:31:30 http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kz8edy2JuW1qb25dg.jpg 04:31:54 hahahah http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kyz1ogCofV1qb25dg.jpg 04:33:31 alise_, try this http://math.etsu.edu/LaTeXMathML/ 04:33:48 yes i saw that in use on your blog, downside: 04:34:01 the results are pretty ugly, formatting-wise, using the css, compared to e.g. jsmath 04:34:21 okay but jsmath is 800MB or something 04:34:39 no :P 04:35:06 soupdragon: jsmath is "obsoleted" by mathjax, but mathjax is uglier on this ubuntu box (prettier on os x and stuff) 04:35:30 oops 80MB 04:35:34 that's still _huge_ 04:35:37 jsmath is like 200 kb + 3.2 mb for sprite fonts or 7.9 mb for image fonts. 04:35:41 where do you get 80mb from 04:35:47 the website 04:35:59 also if you use unicode fonts or tex-fonts-on-user's-computer 04:36:01 it's just 200 kb 04:36:05 soupdragon: link to the relevant page plz 04:36:42 mathjax is pretty but I am worried about the -jax bit 04:36:49 it's not actually ajax 04:36:52 it's just jsmath souped up a bit 04:36:53 http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/jsMath.html 04:37:01 -- but mathjax output is really ugly on linux for some reason! 04:37:10 that is a real shame :( 04:37:17 can you show me screenshots? 04:37:21 "On a system with a 4K minimum file size" 04:37:24 meh 04:37:26 heh... my experiences with vim are funny 04:37:28 the sprite fonts won't do that 04:37:32 since they're all in one big images 04:37:37 only disadvantage, doesn't work with older browsers 04:37:40 but who cares 04:37:41 half the time when I try to type something, I end up just fiddling with keys until I accidentally enter insert mode 04:37:52 soupdragon: yeah ok the ones on their official website show the ugly, sec 04:38:05 http://www.mathjax.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Ubuntu_8.10_Firefox_3.0.6_1280x960_snapshot.png 04:38:09 it's just blurry basically 04:38:25 that's not so bad 04:38:33 soupdragon: but: mathjax is basically just jsmath with css font embedding stuff 04:38:43 I'd just use jsmath with sprite fonts tbh 04:38:51 jsmath is too large 04:39:04 listen to me 04:39:10 the 80mb is for image fonts because of minimum file size stuff 04:39:12 sprite fonts are only a few megs 04:39:21 oh! 04:39:28 also, the /user/ never downloads 80mb; nor do you 04:39:32 it's just due to minimum-file-size on filesystems 04:39:38 but seriously, just use sprite fonts 04:39:44 nobody cares about old browsers :P 04:39:47 i mean you certainly don't, using mathml 04:40:25 and jsmath output looks impeccable ofc, since with sprite fonts/native tex fonts it's pixel-for-pixel like tex output 04:40:33 * soupdragon plays with mathjax 04:40:56 hmm so you are saying that jsmath is best? 04:41:31 What's best is taking over the world. 04:41:32 Of course. 04:42:23 what are we doing today pinky? 04:43:06 soupdragon: for now 04:43:12 when mathjax matures it will probably be better 04:43:30 jsmath+sprite fonts has had a lot of time to mature, and it renders pretty much anything you throw at it well 04:43:32 + everyone uses it 04:43:55 adu: Poit! 04:44:00 lol 04:44:03 http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/jsMath-lab.html 04:44:18 lets you play around with jsmath typesetting 04:44:30 leave it as use images for symbols mostly since that's what ~everyone (who doesn't have native tex fonts) will see 04:45:25 http://fakescience.tumblr.com/ <-- i am _sure_ the sneezing one has to be true 04:45:32 urgh yuck, 04:45:34 soupdragon: although i'd change it to image fonts for everything, not just symbols 04:45:37 zooming on mathjax pixelates it 04:45:39 for the tex look 04:45:40 yeah! 04:45:42 that really annoys me 04:46:41 soupdragon: I believe that the /ideal/ solution is probably something like jsMath with native TeX fonts enabled, and a CSS @font-face to load the computer modern font from the site 04:47:00 that does sound good 04:47:04 that way it'd be the best possible output for everyone, and totally scalable 04:47:07 I want something like this for a program editor 04:47:10 ...in fact I think you could do it! 04:47:22 if you just add the @font-face and force-override jsMath into native TeX fonts it should work! 04:47:29 just using lower_case, titleCase and SCREAMCASE is not enough 04:48:03 Things like mathbb, mathcal - are essential in program code, but for some reason missing 04:48:17 uLtRaCaMeLcAsE 04:49:07 data UlTrAcAmElCaSe uLtRaCaMeLcAsE = UlTrAcAmElCaSe uLtRaCaMeLcAsE | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 04:49:09 i BeLiEvE tHe TeRm Is ChAoScAsE 9NoT rEaLlY0 04:50:40 soupdragon: oh I'm not sure but I think you also need to get e.g. the blackboard bold font from http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/extra-fonts/welcome.html don't quote me on this though 04:50:41 (for jsmath) 04:50:42 Wow, a 2 hour 46min phone call 04:50:47 sprite version 04:52:39 !adduserinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; main = interact $ concat . zipWith ($) (cycle [toLower, toUpper]) 04:52:51 !help 04:52:52 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 04:52:57 !help userinterp 04:52:58 Sorry, I have no help for userinterp! 04:53:00 !help userinterps 04:53:01 userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp. 04:53:04 oh 04:53:11 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; main = interact $ concat . zipWith ($) (cycle [toLower, toUpper]) 04:53:11 Interpreter chaos installed. 04:53:27 According to Reddit, non CS/Software Engineering degrees are worthless 04:53:28 !chaos MWAHAHAHAHAHA 04:53:47 grmbl 04:53:54 !delinterp chaos 04:53:54 Interpreter chaos deleted. 04:54:22 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; main = interact $ zipWith ($) (cycle [toLower, toUpper]) 04:54:23 Interpreter chaos installed. 04:54:26 !chaos MWAHAHAHAHAHA 04:54:29 mWaHaHaHaHaHa 04:54:45 !chaos TeSt 04:54:48 tEsT 04:55:25 * Sgeo would seriously not think of that 04:55:27 !chaos test 1, 2, 3, end test. 04:55:30 tEsT 1, 2, 3, eNd tEsT. 04:55:33 think of what? 04:55:40 The code you wrote 04:55:45 If I wanted to get the result you got 04:55:49 heh 04:56:22 CASulator! Guys? Anyone? No? 04:56:31 !delinterp chaos 04:56:31 Interpreter chaos deleted. 04:56:33 alise_, I might buy one 04:56:44 * oerjan swats coppro -----### 04:56:45 lol :P 04:56:53 oerjan: hold yer horses 04:56:54 coppro: anarchy and chaos 04:56:56 YOU BETTER MAKE A BETTER ONE 04:57:28 SOLVE FOR RECURSIVE FOMRULA f(x)==:f(x) 04:58:18 It's midnight and I haven't had dinner 04:58:29 It's 4:58 am and I haven't got to bed. 04:59:13 alise_, ! 04:59:20 what 04:59:34 soupdragon: btw with native tex fonts installed and jsmath i get /exceptionally/ good rendering 04:59:46 I am using jsmath from now on 04:59:50 coppro: are you making something or not? 04:59:56 I am 05:00:06 I'm just forgetting my one-liner syntax 05:00:43 soupdragon: two nice screenshots: http://imgur.com/1Dnsz.png; http://imgur.com/tgYHE.png 05:00:52 all I did was press ctrl-+ and it scaled up the fonts for me 05:00:53 D: 05:00:59 it's got gaps in the bars 05:01:01 ofc I had to install the tex fonts 05:01:10 soupdragon: i think that's the fault of whoever wrote that page 05:01:18 stuff like that certainly doesn't normally happen 05:01:22 anyway, all of that is using native fonts, not images 05:01:25 so it's really fast and scales 05:01:27 * Sgeo continues his unending quest of Android knowledge 05:01:30 I think it would even print properly 05:01:39 most people will use the sprite fonts ofc since they don't have to do anything, but still 05:02:10 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; main = stdGen >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper])) 05:02:10 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:02:14 !chaos foo 05:02:31 !delinterp chaos 05:02:32 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:02:47 "You only need to downlaod ONE of the archives. " -- yes which one? 05:03:07 coppro: getStdRandom, or something like that 05:03:09 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = stdGen >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper])) 05:03:09 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:03:11 !delinterp chaos 05:03:11 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:03:13 err 05:03:15 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = stdGen >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper])) 05:03:16 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:03:17 !chaos foo 05:03:28 !delinterp chaos 05:03:28 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:03:37 yeah, you're right 05:03:41 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = getStdGen >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper])) 05:03:41 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:03:43 !chaos foo 05:03:46 !haskell :t Data.Random.stdGen 05:04:04 hmph no answer 05:04:29 !delinterp chaos 05:04:29 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:04:33 alise, ahh that is the best! 05:05:08 soupdragon: the split in the brackets and stuff seems to be a glitch in my browser/whatever 05:05:10 ah 05:05:14 coppro: randomIO 05:05:35 or randomRIO if you want a range 05:05:40 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = randomIO >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n . cycle [toLower, toUpper])) 05:05:41 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:05:42 !chaos foo 05:06:11 erp 05:06:13 !delinterp chaos 05:06:13 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:06:16 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = randomIO >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n $ cycle [toLower, toUpper])) 05:06:16 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:06:17 almost there 05:06:19 !chaos foo 05:06:32 hmm 05:06:35 no reply this time 05:06:46 heh 05:06:49 how come EgoBot chats with DCC rather than PM 05:06:52 !chaos foo 05:06:56 fOo 05:07:00 there we go 05:07:02 !chaos foo 05:07:05 fOo 05:07:06 !addinterp drome haskell main = do a <- getLine ; print (a ++ a) 05:07:07 Interpreter drome installed. 05:07:10 oh 05:07:11 duh 05:07:12 coppro: it may be just generating too large n 05:07:12 !drome foobar 05:07:17 yeah 05:07:19 try randomRIO (0,1) 05:07:20 !delinterp chaos 05:07:20 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:07:36 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import Random; main = randomRIO (0, 1) >>= (\n -> interact $ zipWith ($) (drop n $ cycle [toLower, toUpper])) 05:07:37 !delinterp drome 05:07:37 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:07:37 Interpreter drome deleted. 05:07:38 !addinterp drome haskell main = do a <- getLine ; print (a ++ a) 05:07:38 Interpreter drome installed. 05:07:39 !chaos 日本語ã§ä½•ã™ã‚‹ã‹ãªã€‚ 05:07:40 !chaos foo 05:07:43 !drome foobar 05:07:44 Æ—¥æœ¬Èªžã§Ä½•ã™Ã‚‹ã‹Ãªã€‚ 05:07:45 fOo 05:07:46 !chaos foo 05:07:47 "foobarfoobar" 05:07:51 fOo 05:07:53 !delinterp drome 05:07:53 Interpreter drome deleted. 05:07:54 !chaos foo 05:07:58 fOo 05:08:04 *Wow* it screws with Japanese. 05:08:04 !addinterp drome haskell main = do a <- getLine ; putStrLn (a ++ reverse a) 05:08:05 Interpreter drome installed. 05:08:06 !delinterp drome 05:08:06 Interpreter drome deleted. 05:08:08 !addinterp drome haskell main = do a <- getLine ; putStrLn (a ++ reverse a) 05:08:08 Interpreter drome installed. 05:08:10 !drome foobar 05:08:13 foobarraboof 05:08:16 What is the source on toLower and toUpper, anyways? 05:08:18 pikhq: it doesn't understand UTF-8 05:08:35 oerjan: Oh, right. 05:08:41 pikhq: it's an IO problem, until last version or so ghc did text input in latin-1 05:08:46 !drome I roamed under it as 05:08:49 I roamed under it assa ti rednu demaor I 05:08:49 Actual proper UTF-8 handling was added in 6.12. 05:08:56 !drome iroamedunderitas 05:08:59 iroamedunderitassatirednudemaori 05:09:06 Rather than "merely not breaking it most of the time". 05:09:07 !drome dammit 05:09:10 dammittimmad 05:09:22 !drome amanaplanac 05:09:24 amanaplanaccanalpanama 05:09:42 coppro: DCC is better for large files, some of the commands give you program source and stuff 05:10:29 I MUST SLEEP! 5:10 am! Soon! 05:10:34 Argh! You fucking idiot! 05:10:34 yeah me too 05:10:56 soupdragon: ah you are up too 05:10:59 that makes me feel better about things 05:11:00 which is bad 05:11:11 [[most likely this was done automatically by our spam filtering program. the program is still learning, and may even have some bugs, so if you feel the ban was a mistake, please send a message to our site admins and be sure to include the exact name of the reddit.]] 05:11:18 sorry for making a subreddit called jsmath to try and see if i can make it work. 05:11:22 I think I would like to write up a mathematical note in jsmath 05:11:42 so after all this, my graph module in Haskell is doing fanstastic 05:11:44 two lines 05:11:51 coppro: told you 05:11:56 what are the lines? 05:12:05 I was being sarcastic 05:12:07 the module declaration and a newtype 05:13:12 ah 05:13:22 replacing newtypes with types is often a good idea 05:13:25 less cruft in using them 05:13:29 purely functional graphs are hard to do right, i hear 05:13:35 huh? with types? 05:13:49 yes 05:13:49 oerjan, that's fur sure 05:13:51 because you don't have to do 05:13:56 process (Foo x) = Foo (...) 05:14:04 and you can write more point-free, compact definitions 05:14:29 also, vim is awesome 05:14:34 am happy I decided to start learning it 05:14:48 soupdragon: irc needs tex support 05:15:01 I can probably hack jsmath into this client 05:15:07 the thing is nobody will use it 05:15:18 (this client uses HTML to render IRC) 05:16:07 I'd love to be able to write in proper notation rather than hackneyed ASCII crud :) 05:16:42 !delinterp chaos 05:16:42 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:16:48 I have a dilemmaa 05:16:59 actually it's not a dilemma it's just a problem I don't know how to solve 05:17:04 oh? 05:17:12 I suppose I could use an algebra system 05:17:16 black box type thing 05:17:21 btw you can get a latex plugin for pidgin 05:17:22 alise_: we should design a CTCP extension for TeX mathmode 05:17:35 coppro: easier just to replace in e.g. \(...\) 05:17:38 ($ is too common) 05:17:58 meh 05:18:01 less exciting 05:19:26 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import System.Random; main = interact =<< zipWith ($) . map ([toLower,toUpper]!!) . randomRs (0,1) =<< getStdGen 05:19:27 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:19:31 !chaos Testing 05:19:57 must sleep soon 05:19:57 5:19 05:19:59 !delinterp chaos 05:20:00 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:20:34 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import System.Random; main = interact . zipWith ($) . map ([toLower,toUpper]!!) . randomRs (0,1) =<< getStdGen 05:20:34 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:20:37 !chaos Testing 05:20:39 teStINg 05:21:47 hm wait 05:21:50 !delinterp chaos 05:21:51 Interpreter chaos deleted. 05:22:05 !addinterp chaos haskell import Data.Char; import System.Random; main = interact . zipWith ([toLower,toUpper]!!) . randomRs (0,1) =<< getStdGen 05:22:05 Interpreter chaos installed. 05:22:09 !chaos Testing 05:22:12 tEsTInG 05:23:27 what's the !! for? 05:23:36 list indexing 05:23:45 oh 05:23:54 oh, right, partial application 05:25:12 fuckfuck 05:25:15 soupdragon: why aren't you in bed anyway 05:25:24 I was trying to install ubuntu 05:25:32 too many problems though, it didn't work 05:25:39 (by too many I mean one) 05:26:33 lol 05:27:24 it's only when you think zero is too many you have a real problem 05:28:14 ;lbk;lvbn 05:28:14 hlep 05:28:35 In September, 2007, the so-called "monkey tree phenomenon" caused a minor social mania in Singapore. A callus on a tree resembled a monkey, and believers flocked to the tree to pay homage to the Monkey God.[3] 05:32:21 soupdragon: go to sleep so that i can :| 05:33:27 gojdflgdfg 05:34:47 I'm annoyed I can't find my note 05:34:53 yawnwaerjnawerkj 05:35:11 soupdragon: stop torturing me, you're feeding my stupid justification of sleep-deprival by being awake 05:35:58 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 05:36:05 I CAN FIX THAT 05:36:27 alise_: Sleep is for mortals. 05:36:31 Are *you* mortal? 05:36:41 yes 05:36:43 oerjan: NO! 05:36:45 I BEG YOU 05:36:47 ANYTHING BUT 05:36:48 Shock! Gasp! 05:36:48 NO 05:36:55 besides i still have the internet 05:36:57 ...and logs 05:36:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 05:37:02 ok then 05:37:05 I would never have suspected you of being mortal! 05:37:19 osdfjhisdjoiAWO HJ 05:37:20 I suppose next you'll tell me oerjan is Norwegian! 05:37:22 KILL ME NOW 05:37:34 i suspect alise_ of having a goal to become immortal 05:37:43 ffffffff not if it doesn't come with sleep 05:37:47 all that singularity stuff, you know 05:37:55 pikhq: there are rumors 05:38:00 soupdragon: whyyy whyyyy 05:38:10 oerjan: Hmm. 05:39:47 it must have ended up in the trash somehow 05:39:59 soupdragon: WHAT ARE YOU DOING HOW ARE YOU STILL AWAKE 05:41:30 soupdragon: no seriouslyi want to know 05:41:51 I'm going to write something up using jsmath 05:42:04 WHAT 05:42:10 soupdragon: you do realise i NEED to sleep 05:42:26 let me explain something to you 05:42:37 :'( 05:42:39 alise_: If you have biological needs, you should fulfill them. 05:42:55 To do otherwise is either folly or extreme determination. 05:42:58 pikhq: CAN'T AGE OF CONSENT LOL okay cheesy joke out of the way, yes but I have a mental need to be a complete fucking idiot 05:43:04 Depending on the scenario. 05:43:04 I /cannot make myself sleep/ 05:43:07 alise_: (x-t1)*(x-t2)=t^2-s1*t+s2 with s1 = t1 + t2, s2 = t1*t2 05:43:12 soupdragon: NO NO NO DIE 05:43:13 STOP IT 05:43:14 STOP 05:43:16 s1 and s2 are symmetric polynomials 05:43:16 STOP YOU CRETIN 05:43:24 I HATE YOU FOREVER 05:43:25 would you please calm down 05:43:25 alise_: Think you could talk to someone about that? 05:43:26 this is important 05:43:30 Like, at the unit? 05:43:34 :P 05:43:35 haha no it is not important :| 05:43:42 you are killing me 05:43:54 alise_: I do not demand that you make yourself sleep. 05:43:56 can I continue or are you going to continue making a fuss? 05:44:02 However, you should turn off your computer. 05:44:11 ... And your iPhone. 05:44:12 pikhq: Uh why 05:44:28 alise_: And then turn off the light. 05:44:32 And stare at the ceiling all night long. 05:44:44 I have a sneaking suspicion you will fail in this task, and end up sleeping instead. 05:45:05 Night? 05:45:10 The light shines in from outside. 05:45:18 People are probably up, some people at least; it is morning, and I am fucking tired. 05:45:25 See, the thing is 05:45:29 Say I had a button on my desk right now 05:45:38 I press it, and my computer is off, and I'm in bed 05:45:40 immediately 05:45:42 I'd press it 05:45:46 it's the gap 05:45:55 alise_: Oh, that. 05:46:05 fucking irrational mind 05:46:08 05:46:08 05:46:17 what the heck, why is this not in the ? 05:46:20 it's inside 05:46:29 See, what you should do, then, is develop a strong interest in the pattern of your ceiling. 05:46:35 ah this one is better, 05:46:35 05:46:49 soupdragon: if it's in the head 05:46:53 the page doesn't appear until it's loaded 05:46:58 yes html is retarded, deal with it and put it in body 05:47:11 pikhq: What. On my computer seat? 05:47:27 alise_: No, lay in bed. 05:47:42 But that involves shutting down the computer, getting into bed, and so many other things. 05:47:54 Get your fucking ass in bed and enjoy the comfort thereof. 05:48:19 I don't care if you go there with the intent to sleep, *surely* you've been sitting sufficiently long that either standing or laying down would feel pretty good by now. 05:48:38 (though, I suspect, as it is $fucking_early there, you will doze off quickly) 05:49:11 i'm sorry, my brain isn't listening to you 05:49:14 also it's light, i can't sleep in daylight 05:49:24 [[Here are the color names most disproportionately popular among women: 05:49:25 1. Dusty Teal 05:49:25 2. Blush Pink 05:49:25 3. Dusty Lavender 05:49:25 4. Butter Yellow 05:49:25 5. Dusky Rose 05:49:27 Okay, pretty flowery, certainly. Kind of an incense-bomb-set-off-in-a-Bed-Bath-&-Beyond vibe. Well, let’s take a look at the other list. 05:49:30 Here are the color names most disproportionately popular among men: 05:49:32 1. Penis 05:49:34 2. Gay 05:49:36 man, I have no idea how to make this note 05:49:36 3. WTF 05:49:40 4. Dunno 05:49:42 5. Baige 05:49:44 ]] --xkcd blog 05:49:54 soupdragon: ?? 05:49:56 $foo$ 05:49:58 \[ butt \] 05:50:02 jsmath does the rest 05:50:02 maybe you can help me 05:50:12 f . g) b = f (g b) = (a->b) -> 05:50:17 soupdragon: HAHAHAHA 05:50:18 did NOT mean to type that 05:50:20 pikhq: please kill soupdragon 05:50:24 alise_: Believe me, when you are tired enough you can sleep in the daylight. 05:50:30 I'm not that tired yet 05:50:34 also now kill soupdragon 05:50:40 But the computer is obviously not helping. 05:51:24 Also, seriously: have you considered talking to someone about this? 05:51:24 http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/misc_answers.png 05:51:32 "i am now colour blind by choice. i can no longer see green." 05:51:35 how do you refer to an operator literally in Haskell again? 05:51:45 This is probably a bit of a bad sleeping disorder, or some *really* low will-power. 05:51:48 coppro: (+) 05:51:51 thanks 05:51:56 alise_, I need some sort of cheatsheet for jsmath 05:51:58 pikhq: No, not really. I'm a teenager, we hate going to sleep and we love sleep. I am a geek with pathetically bad self-control and a severe internet addiction. 05:52:01 soupdragon: it's just latex 05:52:09 yeah I know not for the latex parts 05:52:12 soupdragon: what parts 05:52:20 pikhq: I've considered taking melatonin supplements per advice from Less Wrong 05:52:57 alise_: Not that I'm one to talk. 05:53:03 how do I do vertical equations 05:53:07 like 05:53:08 x 05:53:09 = y 05:53:10 y z 05:53:12 op 05:53:13 I mean, I have had weeks where I went to bed at 5... 05:53:14 oops* 05:53:18 soupdragon: eh? 05:53:23 \begin{align*} and shit like that i guess you mean 05:53:30 \begin{align*} 05:53:30 PM. 05:53:34 & x 05:53:38 =& y 05:53:39 =& z 05:53:39 err 05:53:42 with \\ after each lign 05:53:43 *line 05:53:46 then \end{align*} 05:53:56 I like the bit about fuchsia 05:53:59 I really should've disambiguated that. 5AM is much easier to pull off. 05:54:04 pikhq: both i and ais523 have been on the sleep from 8pm--4am schedule before 05:54:05 it is hell 05:54:13 Though it makes classes a real bitch. 05:54:40 I'm going to cry :| why do i have to have another sleep-deprived sunday, this never happens friday night 05:54:47 i just have some sort of gene that refuses to sleep sat. night 05:54:48 alise_: I've hit an 8pm--4am schedule once. By having my sleep schedule push *forward* a bunch each day. 05:54:48 why 05:54:50 WHYYYYYY 05:55:09 seriously: i am going to get melatonin supplements for, like, next week. 05:55:18 good idea 05:55:31 alise_: let me guess, your brain is being geared up by using the computer a lot for the first time in almost a week? 05:55:47 oerjan: that's a nice theory, but this sort of shit happened to me before the unit 05:55:55 ah 05:56:00 you know freerunner schedule, "be awake until you get tired and know you can sleep, then sleep?" 05:56:06 I was on extreme freerunner 05:56:17 Ah, the freerunner schedule... 05:56:30 alise_, http://i.imgur.com/noDzH.png this is pathetic :/ 05:56:31 "be awake until you're so incoherent that you are not capable of logical thought for more than .5s blips, then stumble to bed and sleep for 12 hours" 05:56:43 soupdragon: hmm what did you type for that 05:56:46 $$ (x-t_1)(x-t_2)(x-t_3) $$ 05:56:47 $$ = x^3 - (t_1 + t_2 + t_3) x^2 + (t_1 t_2 + t_1 t_3 + t_2 t_3) x - t_1 t_2 t_3 $$ 05:56:56 well don't do that 05:56:59 also use \[ 05:57:00 do it like this: 05:57:19 soupdragon: there is no alignment between consecutive $$ or \[ blocks afaik 05:57:24 soupdragon: 05:57:25 \[ 05:57:25 \begin{align*} 05:57:25 & (x-t_1)(x-t_2)(x-t_3) \\ 05:57:25 =& x^3 - (t_1 + t_2 + t_3) x^2 + (t_1 t_2 + t_1 t_3 + t_2 t_3) x - t_1 t_2 t_3 05:57:25 \end{align*} 05:57:27 \] 05:57:29 problem solved 05:57:36 you need to put it in some kind of environment for lining things up 05:57:43 pikhq: I guess I may have a sleeping disorder; but I sleep fine, it's just getting to bed. 05:58:01 oh wow that worked!! thank you! 05:58:20 alise_: Actually. Given that you are a teenager, you most certainly do have one. It's called "being a teenager". 05:58:45 soupdragon: I said that earlier you know :-) 05:58:53 align* is pretty much the go-to for any alignment job in latex 05:59:08 about 05:59:12 t_1 t_2 + t_1 t_3 + t_2 t_3 05:59:14 t_2 t_3 + t_1 t_3 + t_1 t_2 05:59:16 or what? 05:59:18 which one should I use 05:59:22 pikhq: yes, but having serious trouble getting to bed at ALL? 05:59:30 soupdragon: the former 05:59:36 t_1 t_2 is a nicer start than the more "random" t_2 t_3 05:59:46 soupdragon: the former is nicely lexicographic 06:00:49 otoh the second _does_ have its benefits if you're combining it with more things that also have a t_1 special, t_2 special, t_3 special order, i guess 06:01:08 alise_: I have on occasion. 06:01:23 pikhq: I have almost universally. 06:01:42 alise_: Also, generally I spend at least an hour in bed before I can fall asleep. 06:01:53 Sometimes significantly more-so. 06:01:55 Me too, but I would be fine if only I could get to BED. 06:02:12 See, now I'm mentally flaking but it feels like it's "too late" to embed myself. All the damn excuses my brain comes up with. 06:02:24 I think a few times, I have laid in bed for 6 hours, not sleeping, and *then* slept for 8 hours. 06:02:43 ;( 06:02:50 alise_, mathbb looks like bold text 06:02:56 it's not stirked 06:02:58 It's like "fuck it, I'm going to fuck up my sleep schedule now." 06:03:00 heh, (. function) or (function .) is a neat Haskell syntax trick 06:03:03 soupdragon: BECAUSE 06:03:04 you need to 06:03:10 http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/extra-fonts/welcome.html 06:03:15 get bbold10-sprite.zip 06:03:25 coppro: IT'S POINTLESS 06:03:28 also some sans-serif, fraktur, ams greek, and what I think is \mathcal there 06:03:30 coppro: (.).(.) 06:03:40 just put them in with the sprite fonts 06:03:48 pikhq: yep 06:03:57 silliness abounds! 06:04:09 It's the triple-breasted whore of Eroticon Six! 06:04:12 :D 06:04:31 !haskell :t (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.) 06:04:32 (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.) :: (b1 -> b -> c) 06:04:59 (.).(.) = (.)(.)(.) 06:05:00 it gave more lines in DCC 06:05:04 Well, that's a nearly impossible type. 06:05:13 oerjan: Oh, that would help. 06:05:22 !haskell :t (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.) 06:05:22 07:04 =EgoBot> -> (a -> b1) 06:05:22 07:04 =EgoBot> -> a 06:05:22 07:04 =EgoBot> -> (a1 -> b) 06:05:22 07:04 =EgoBot> -> a1 06:05:22 07:04 =EgoBot> -> c 06:05:23 (.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.)(.) :: (b1 -> b -> c) 06:05:57 (b1 -> b -> c) -> (a -> b1) -> a -> (a1 -> b) -> a1 -> c , eh? 06:06:07 Okay, that's *much* less crazy. 06:06:22 :( 06:06:30 I can't get it to display mathbb correctly 06:06:33 Pointless, perhaps, but much less crazy. 06:06:42 pikhq: it actually repeats when you add another (.)(.)(.)(.) 06:06:51 iirc 06:07:41 soupdragon: look 06:07:45 did you install the fonts i told you to 06:07:47 the -sprite ones 06:07:49 in the jsmath folders 06:07:50 no 06:07:53 well that is why 06:07:54 you need them 06:07:57 please LISTEN to me 06:08:03 why can't I use the bbold font 06:08:04 http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/download/extra-fonts/welcome.html 06:08:04 get bbold10-sprite.zip 06:08:04 coppro: IT'S POINTLESS 06:08:04 also some sans-serif, fraktur, ams greek, and what I think is \mathcal there 06:08:04 coppro: (.).(.) 06:08:05 just put them in with the sprite font 06:08:22 because it doesn't come with jsmath, just like a few other fonts. so just put them in with the jsmath files, job done 06:09:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:09:48 meh. i'll go to bed 06:09:54 Can't load fonts/msbm10/def.js: Access to restricted URI denied 06:09:57 that's not good 06:10:06 -!- alise_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:13:23 Let us derive a formula for solutions of the general cubic with coefficients in \mathbb{Q} using Galois theory. 06:13:25 verbose 06:13:53 but it is very nice http://i.imgur.com/Dcz8N.png 06:16:31 express the cubic formula as one equation 06:16:32 go 06:17:12 a x^3 + b x^2 + c x + d = 0 06:17:16 what do i win? 06:17:25 lol 06:24:58 -!- augur has joined. 06:41:21 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 06:55:25 http://i.imgur.com/xhLUM.png 06:55:29 augur you like? 06:58:10 I freaking love jsmath it's so good 07:01:17 Night all 07:01:24 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 07:04:32 I wish alise could be here to see this ;'( 07:30:21 but it's not LaTeX 07:30:31 (well, for math, regular TeX will do) 07:32:59 -!- soupdragon has quit (Quit: soupdragon). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:18:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 08:47:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:17:39 -!- mre has joined. 09:19:40 -!- aox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:19:45 -!- mre has changed nick to aox. 09:21:26 -!- mre has joined. 09:24:02 -!- aox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:24:03 -!- mre has changed nick to aox. 09:35:42 -!- aox has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:36:28 -!- Akamaru has joined. 09:43:05 -!- aox has joined. 09:50:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:56:49 Hi folks. Is anyone here into Malbolge? 10:04:16 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 10:25:18 -!- cheater3 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:35:39 -!- kar8nga has joined. 10:41:09 -!- Patashu has joined. 10:42:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:42:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALZZx1xmAzg&fmt= 10:43:11 I feel that this is relevant to yesterday's discussion. 11:07:03 -!- tombom has joined. 11:08:23 -!- cheater2 has joined. 12:04:29 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 12:23:51 -!- mre has joined. 12:25:45 -!- aox has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:25:52 -!- mre has changed nick to aox. 12:30:18 -!- reitheti has joined. 12:59:23 Phantom_Hoover: we've had like 100 discussions yesterday 13:07:13 Correct! 13:33:34 i've got a german guy in my flat 13:33:40 he's my roommate 13:33:47 flatmate* 13:34:26 and he talks on skype all the time and listens to techno, but then he leaves to his office because he's an accounter 13:41:18 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:42:05 -!- reitheti has quit (Quit: Quitte). 14:23:50 urks, skype 14:30:02 -!- aox has quit (Quit: aox). 15:12:19 -!- Patashu has quit (Quit: MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2). 15:16:52 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 15:28:42 -!- alise has joined. 15:28:53 Can't load fonts/msbm10/def.js: Access to restricted URI denied 15:28:59 you did something incorrectly :P 15:29:42 01:56:49 Hi folks. Is anyone here into Malbolge? 15:29:52 nobody is in to malbolge, it is too hard to be "in" to, but yes, we have Malbolge theorists here 15:29:55 among them, oerjan 15:35:51 22:13:23 Let us derive a formula for solutions of the general cubic with coefficients in \mathbb{Q} using Galois theory. 15:35:52 dude 15:35:54 $\mathbb{Q}$ 15:35:57 it works 15:36:24 23:04:32 I wish alise could be here to see this ;'( 15:36:25 fff 15:36:26 you did it wrong 15:36:28 23:30:21 but it's not LaTeX 15:36:29 it is 15:36:34 it renders a v. large subset of latex 15:36:37 with computer modern fonts 15:37:10 Good morrow, alise. 15:37:17 SOUPDRAGON DID IT WRONG 15:37:18 AAAAAARRRRRRR 15:38:13 So, 1 + 4 + 9 + 16 + ... = 0. 15:38:29 Or, more precisely, sum(n=0, inf) n^2 = 0. 15:39:04 Disgusst. 15:43:27 In[20]:= FinDeriv[If[x<0,-1,If[x==0,0,1]],x] 15:43:28 Out[20]= \[Piecewise]1x==-1||x==0 15:43:28 2-1 0True 15:43:32 Good to know :P 15:47:40 In[35]:= FinDeriv[3^x, x] 15:47:40 Out[35]= 2 3^x 15:47:40 In[36]:= FinInteg[2 3^x, {x, x}] 15:47:40 Out[36]= 3^x 15:47:41 my lord 15:47:46 it actually does proper integration on it 15:47:51 FinDeriv[x_, v_] := Simplify[(x /. {v -> v + 1}) - x] 15:47:51 FinInteg[e_, {v_, x_}] := Sum[e /. {v -> y}, {y, -\[Infinity], x - 1}] 15:48:26 +c 15:51:35 what 15:52:18 I don't know why I said that. 15:55:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]). 15:59:53 anyone here good with mathematica? 16:01:08 also, coppro is wrong; most of the "plain TeX" maths you use is from latex/ams-latex. 16:01:29 unless you write "a \over b" for \frac{a}{b} 16:02:23 http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps eqn is pretty fun as the non-latex formatters go 16:02:35 -!- soupdragon has joined. 16:06:28 soupdragon: 16:06:31 soupdragon: you know that div math stuff? 16:06:33 get rid of it! 16:06:34 $foo$ works 16:06:41 maybe you have to add one more js include, don't remember 16:06:46 but you can use $foo$ and \[...\] (or $$ if you must) 16:07:23 $ \zeta_3 $ doesn't work 16:07:34 ? 16:07:35 why not 16:07:53 it doesn't interpret it as LaTeX 16:08:07 soupdragon: http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/authors/tex2math.html 16:08:17 16:08:52 so should I change ? 16:08:56 no, leave that 16:08:59 I think it automatically loads everything you need 16:09:19 soupdragon: question 16:09:26 you have the SCRIPT at the bottom of the page right? 16:09:29 just before 16:09:32 otherwise, it will lag page loading 16:09:43 so, move it there if it's not, then just change the body line to 16:09:50 works 16:09:56 yeah 16:10:03 you have the 18:27:38 18:27:42 these should really be at end of body :( 18:27:43 or page load will lag 18:27:44 why 18:27:51 because browsers suck; when they see a script tag 18:27:52 It's just a "recommends" dependency, on "apache | apache-ssl | apache-perl | apache2 | httpd". 18:27:55 they immediately stop loading the page, 18:28:01 download the script 18:28:02 run the entire script 18:28:04 and THEN continue 18:28:08 so it blocks the entire page load 18:28:23 is there any reason to do this? 18:28:34 pineapple: browsers suck; that's a general law of nature 18:28:43 soupdragon: man that's typeset well 18:28:50 I bet not even Knuth could distinguish it from TeX :-) 18:28:56 jsmath is jawesome 18:29:06 ;D 18:29:07 That's not suckiness, there is reason to do that; if you put it up there the expectation is that you want something run at that point 18:29:25 Not doing it would break the broken document.write stuff, though that's a pretty sucky thing in general. 18:29:38 Deewiant: yes, but still. 18:29:43 cluttering up the body is lame. 18:29:48 i love how you can zoom in all the way and it still looks like computer modern 18:29:49 Deewiant: by some people, yes; i get the feeling though that others copy putting it at the top without understanding why 18:30:01 I'm just saying you can't say the browser sucks because it does that 18:30:12 It probably follows some spec, and if not, it does what you'd expect 18:30:32 soupdragon: btw, if you use this on anything public i strongly suggest setting the default to image fonts, not just for symbols 18:30:41 :( 18:30:42 otherwise it uses the body font for variable names and shit and it looks really ugly 18:30:48 soupdragon: no no it'll still use tex fonts when available 18:30:54 just it won't fall back to image-fonts-only-for-symbols 18:30:57 oh 18:31:45 oh and also it bugs everyone who reads the page to install tex fonts which 99% people really don't need to... 18:31:50 before including jsmath fixes that 18:32:51 oh and you also need to put 18:32:51 18:32:53 before loading jsmath 18:32:56 (yeah this is a pain but ehh) 18:33:31 ah 18:33:40 soupdragon: and before /that/ script, 18:33:41 18:33:45 will make it better for people with non-tex fonts 18:35:40 oh wait 18:35:41 The usual way to load jsMath used to be with a SCRIPT tag within the BODY of the document; loading jsMath in the document HEAD used to require additional effort, but as of version 3.0, this is no longer the case. You can now load jsMath in the HEAD and call jsMath.Process() or jsMath.ProcessBeforeShowing() in the document's onLoad handler without ever having any jsMath calls within the BODY of the document. The old jsMath.Setup.Body() call is no longer needed 18:35:41 . 18:36:00 soupdragon: does the mathbb stuff show for you? 18:36:21 just shows as bold for me 18:36:41 aha 18:36:42 If you are using easy/load.js to load jsMath, you can add the new font to the loadFonts array in easy/load.js. For example, 18:36:42 loadFonts: ["cmmib10"], 18:36:42 will cause the cmmib10 font to be available on every page that uses easy/load.js. If you are loading jsMath.js by hand, then in the HTML file that will be using the new font, include the line 18:36:44 18:36:46 right after loading jsMath.js. That will load the data needed for jsMath to handle the cmmib10 font. 18:36:48 soupdragon: ^^ do that 18:36:53 you do it 18:37:00 fine 18:37:05 I will update my file 18:37:52 -!- augur has joined. 18:42:19 ff 18:42:44 soupdragon: Ehh who wants blackboard bold anyway right?? Stupid Bourbakian invention? ...right? Right? 18:42:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:43:33 http://www.conservapedia.com/Linear_algebra#Application:_Analyzing_Liberal_style_on_Wikipedia 18:43:36 * Phantom_Hoover sobs 18:44:18 soupdragon: you do not sound convince.d 18:44:20 *convinced 18:44:58 soupdragon: just to check, you have put bbold10-sprite.zip's contents in the right place yeah? 18:45:04 not the native version 18:45:29 alise: sheesh you're making bourbaki roll in his grave 18:45:39 * oerjan ducks beneath a rock again 18:45:42 who likes bourbaki anyway! 18:47:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Client Quit). 18:47:39 his set theory was one of the first books i found in the library when starting university 18:47:58 also, later 18:48:09 soupdragon: btw you can do \unicode{x2124} e.g. for blackboard Z, but tis ugly 18:48:13 'tis 18:48:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 18:49:23 conservapedia :( 18:49:37 doubleplusunlike 18:54:15 i love trolling 18:55:06 i don't know why but it's really awesome to ask php guys about a cool feature that php haven't got and then watch their mad reactions ;D 18:55:19 soupdragon: aha!! 18:55:21 i have it almost working 18:55:25 it works with images but not tex fonts 18:55:37 no wait 18:55:39 it works with both 18:55:58 soupdragon: ok you need msbm10 from http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsmath/download/extra-fonts/welcome.html in both ttf and sprite 18:56:11 unpack the sprite one in jsmath/fonts; leave the directory as is don't expand the files just the directory into there 18:56:32 then edit jsmath/easy/load.js 18:56:35 and change the loadFonts line to 18:56:37 loadFonts: ["msbm10"], 18:56:39 and save. 18:56:48 also install the ttf one for your personal use 18:57:00 soupdragon: easy 18:57:18 soupdragon: and this is what the head of your html page should look like: http://pastie.org/952666.txt?key=buhhmspyfe1dfqkcw54lza 18:57:26 perfect blackboard bold. 18:57:29 nooga: which channel? :p 18:58:28 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:00:07 soupdragon: change jsmath/ in that head to where your jsmath files are obviously 19:00:14 soupdragon: now will you actually do this or did I do all that work for nothing :) 19:02:54 Mathnerd314: not on irc 19:03:24 -!- augur has joined. 19:03:29 then where? 19:05:07 http://blip.pl/ 19:05:17 it's much like twitter 19:06:10 soupdragon: also if you want \binom and stuff you need http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/authors/AMSmath.html 19:06:19 nooga: except in a language I don't know :p 19:06:20 oh wait if it has align it must already been in there 19:06:20 hmm 19:06:28 Mathnerd314: Polish ofc 19:06:55 loadFiles: ["extensions/AMSmath.js", "extensions/AMSsymbols.js"], 19:06:57 anyway 19:07:16 yay, now \therefore works 19:09:19 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:09:37 soupdragon: dammit i broke your thing by adding my thing 19:11:44 -!- hiato has joined. 19:12:18 (Hot) 19:12:39 lol 19:14:25 :> 19:22:56 Lo all 19:23:15 Don't suppose one of you is 'kirarinsnow' for GCJ? 19:23:46 aha 19:23:55 soupdragon: i fixed it and now it is all pefect 19:23:57 *perfect 19:24:30 Whoever that was did GCJ in Piet, sed, J, Prolog, Octave and SNOBOL 19:27:11 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:27:16 back 19:29:30 soupdragon: yeah I made a lot of changes so ignore my previous advice 19:29:32 I've got everything working 19:29:35 proper blackboard bold and all 19:30:15 -!- Alex3012 has joined. 19:30:46 sweet 19:30:54 mathbb is the sexiest thing I have ever seen 19:32:11 soupdragon: so are you prepared to do the work of downloading some files and changing two files to get it? :P 19:32:28 huh? 19:32:31 I already have mathbb 19:32:34 nope 19:32:44 only works for you, y'see 19:32:54 besides, mine actually uses sprite fonts and stuff 19:33:11 * soupdragon doesn't like sprites 19:33:20 soupdragon: yes, but it only shows for people without the fonts 19:33:25 oh 19:33:30 the alternative is it not working at all for those people since you don't have the image fonts 19:36:59 soupdragon: here 19:37:02 http://pastie.org/952722.txt?key=6caif1bj8kqogegg4k6tua 19:37:19 thanks 19:37:20 the ultimate guide to awesome jsMath, with symbols like \therefore, proper mathbb, even \mathcal if you want, sprite font fallback, native fonts, everything 19:37:23 and $foo$ 19:37:28 :D 19:37:31 do that once and all you need to do in future is copy the head code to another document 19:40:58 -!- augur has joined. 19:42:49 soupdragon: slight jsMath caveat: copy and paste doesn't really work 19:43:01 but then you cannot really copy and paste typeset mathematics. 19:43:09 double clicking on an equation gets you the tex code though 19:45:48 -!- alise_ has joined. 19:49:08 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:50:48 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:54:51 soupdragon: wow you can even hide the mathematics while it's typesetting 19:57:35 soupdragon: edit easy/load.js to have this instead of the :1 version, 19:57:36 showFontWarnings: 0, 19:57:42 and in the page head 19:57:44 ;;;;]]]] 19:57:45 window.jsMath = {Font: {fallback: "image", Message: function () {}}}; 19:57:46 can just be 19:57:50 window.jsMath = {Font: {fallback: "image"}}; 19:59:46 soupdragon: you can use numbered equations! 19:59:47 http://www.math.union.edu/~dpvc/jsMath/authors/eqn-number.html 20:00:24 yeah there is no doubt about it this is the best way to do math 20:00:27 on the web 20:07:10 sometime i think i will try using @font-face so that people with modern browsers get tex fonts automatically, even if they haven't installed them! 20:09:56 soupdragon: http://91.104.225.35/maths.html i wrote some stuff about zeta summation because dammit i can't stop thinking about how to sum the reciprocals 20:10:06 mostly just to test out how pretty i can get some stuff 20:10:08 answer; very 20:10:11 odd 20:10:14 best with linux fonts 20:10:17 actually i will put in a nice mac font there 20:10:39 http://i.imgur.com/ss4VX.png 20:11:05 very odd 20:11:12 weird 20:11:12 sec 20:11:23 soupdragon: i will see if i can fix it 20:12:12 soupdragon: For me it displays beautifully: http://imgur.com/o21rB.png 20:13:02 why not for me :( 20:13:38 soupdragon: dunno. i'm trying to fix it now 20:13:40 in the meantime refresh 20:13:42 I changed the font for OS X 20:13:45 better or worse? 20:13:59 the same 20:14:08 * Sgeo runs a VM he hasn't run in YEARS 20:15:03 soupdragon: no i mean the text 20:15:05 not the tex part 20:15:07 but the surrounding text 20:15:28 oh it's changed now but it wasn't changed a moment ago 20:15:44 right 20:15:49 is the change better? in the non-tex bits 20:15:55 yes 20:15:57 don't have an os x box to hand, a screenshot would be nice I guess :P 20:16:03 ok right now i'll fix this alignment issue 20:16:41 http://i.imgur.com/1uTJC.png 20:17:49 i forgot how nice hoefler text is 20:18:58 soupdragon: and the options panel says native fonts are being used? 20:19:38 soupdragon: fixed 20:19:39 refresh 20:20:14 no 20:20:30 ok i'll fix it 20:20:31 in a sec 20:20:32 brb 20:23:34 * Sgeo accidentally rtrapped himself in Win98 for a bit 20:23:37 I escaped, though 20:24:46 * soupdragon isn't sure what to be doing now 20:30:04 soupdragon: Learn all the languages. 20:30:36 I suggest getting a time machine, and finding the common ancestor of all langauges, and start there. 20:30:46 Also, attain immortality. 20:31:21 You're going to be studying for at least a few centuries. 20:31:21 :) 20:33:37 * Sgeo would like to learn all the programming languages 20:33:40 >.> 20:35:10 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:35:43 * Sgeo would love to learn BANCstar 20:36:22 Sgeo: That would actually take *significantly* less effort. 20:36:43 As programming languages have pretty much all been attested at one time or another. 20:36:54 And are generally designed to be learnable in not-too-much-time. 20:37:15 Though a *royal* fucking pain, I suspect someone could just about manage it in a human lifetime. 20:37:36 Though they'll be damned bitter about the continual invention of programming languages. ;) 20:38:15 -!- anschelsc has joined. 20:38:31 -!- anschelsc has left (?). 20:39:07 To be fair to BANCstar, I wouldn't really expect an intermediate language to be decent 20:40:52 back 20:41:02 wb 20:41:02 soupdragon: i thought i worked out the sum of the reciprocals 20:41:05 but i worked out the product 20:41:45 "Skeletons and maximal balls"; what a great title in this "computer vision" course lecture-slide. 20:42:15 maximal balls are maximally manly 20:42:58 soupdragon: anyway 20:43:20 First-level point "Skeletons", second-level point "formation with maximal balls", third-level sub-point "the result can be non-homotopic". 20:44:14 inf! = sqrt(2 pi); inf! = 1*2*3*4*...; 1/abcd = (1/a)(1/b)(1/c)(1/d); (1/1)(1/2)(1/3)(1/4)...=1/(1*2*3*4*...); so the product of the reciprocals is 1/sqrt(2 pi) 20:44:16 soupdragon: ^ 20:44:32 :-P 20:46:42 soupdragon: I think I fixed http://localhost/maths.html 20:46:58 make sure to cmd-refresh or whatever it is 20:47:02 to get the new versio 20:47:18 "There's no such file in my localhost." 20:47:40 Anyone have experience with ILLGOL? 20:47:50 er oops 20:47:58 http://91.104.225.35/maths.html 20:48:27 /should/ display the most beautiful rendering of mathematics ever conceived of :P 20:48:57 still broken 20:49:10 View source; does it include this line? 20:49:15 vertical-align: baseline; 20:49:17 OH I bet that's why 20:49:43 soupdragon: refresh 20:50:02 no 20:50:27 "I haven't killed anyone at ALL since I started programming in ILLGOL!" 20:50:27 still not working? whattt 20:51:26 soupdragon: does the view source show this: 20:51:32 div.typeset { 20:51:32 margin: 1.4583em 0; 20:51:32 } 20:51:56 yes 20:52:21 then ... what the fuck 20:52:44 try now, tried something new 20:52:53 fixed! 20:52:54 it should be slightly /above/ the text now 20:52:58 not quite 20:53:01 it's a bit above the baseline 20:53:04 I'll just quickly fix that 20:53:05 yeah it is 20:54:35 it is between 0.11 and 0.12 em too high 20:54:35 weird 20:55:30 hmm 20:55:32 soupdragon: refresh again :P 20:55:36 I know this is a pain, just trying to diagnose it 20:55:46 broken again 20:56:10 this would be a lot easier if I had safari to hand... try now? 20:57:24 I'm using firefox 20:57:58 weird. so am i, firefox 3 here though 20:58:01 not 3.6 or anything 21:02:05 -!- alise_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:02:37 A number n is irrational iff Unknown control sequence '\msbm' and Unknown control sequence '\msbm'. 21:03:49 -!- alise has joined. 21:04:45 so hi 21:06:39 soupdragon: i'll try to fix it later... can't seem to right now 21:06:48 http://localhost/galois.html ;; I PLAGIARISED YOU 21:06:57 I'm watching TheCatsters 21:09:07 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:09:16 hi zzo38 21:10:04 Hi 21:10:40 I thought about, in a D&D game, how to make a rule that if two magical effects are making anti-magic field with overlap areas, that there can be interference pattern. 21:10:54 In some places they constructively interfere and in others they destructively interfere. 21:11:27 In some places you can still cast spells but the range would be severly restricted to a few inches. If you can't cast a spell, try moving a few inches and try again. 21:12:38 -!- Oranjer has joined. 21:12:47 soupdragon: Interesting fact: John Baez founded the school of Baezian statistics. 21:14:08 However, in some anti-magic that doesn't count as a magical effect in that way, it will just be antimagic without the interference pattern. Another way there would be no interference pattern is if one of them is caused by an artifact and the other by a non-artifact. 21:16:28 Do you like this idea? 21:16:56 Absolutely! I like it and I didn't even read it. 21:17:36 lol 21:20:16 Why didn't you read it? 21:20:35 I don't play D&D. 21:21:16 Then how can you know if you like it? 21:21:29 If you didn't read it? 21:21:41 What should I be doing for the next few hours 21:22:10 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 21:22:31 soupdragon--make a generator for something normally seen as "too vague to define" 21:22:34 I don't know? 21:22:55 hmmmm 21:24:08 zzo38: i like anything you say it's usually awesome 21:24:17 soupdragon: TYPESETTING BEAUTIFUL MATHEMATICS 21:24:18 uhh 21:24:19 writing code 21:24:26 code is fun occasionally. 21:24:28 I don't have any more mathematics to write out 21:24:38 I have lost that drive to write programs 21:24:54 maybe I should solve a quintic in radicals 21:25:25 soupdragon: prove that there does not exist a pair of turing-complete machines/automatons A and B such that neither A nor B are Turing-complete, but feeding some code S to A (producing a potentially infinite output) and then feeding the result into B as its code yields Turing-completeness 21:25:51 (this would remove any doubt about the validity of ais523's 2,3 TM proof; since the generating automaton is not Turing-complete, and the whole construction is Turing-complete, the 2,3 TM would therefore have to be Turing-complete) 21:26:00 soupdragon: OK, play a game, perhaps? Such as Super ASCII MZX Town (series)? Or even make up a game. 21:26:18 alise - isn't that obvious? The composition of two subturing functions is subturing 21:26:18 alise: ... you just said A and B are TC ... do you mean that A and B are non-universal TM, but their interaction is universal? 21:26:31 Gregor-L: Yes 21:26:31 Or perhaps, play Sub-EBCDIC ZZT Village. 21:26:33 soupdragon: it isn't obvious because of infinite output 21:26:47 soupdragon: the generating automaton in ais's proof generates an infinite, non-repeating -- but still generated by a sub-TC -- computer 21:26:48 (Actually, "Sub-EBCDIC ZZT Village" doesn't exist) 21:26:52 this then invokes TC behaviour in the 2,3 TM 21:26:57 the argument is whether this makes the 2,3 TM TC 21:26:57 zzo38, I was thinking of making a rougelike but I don't think I can really be bothered because I expect that i would give up on at before it was really good 21:26:58 One stack machine + one stack machine = one Turing machine. 21:27:02 or 21:27:06 just makes {automaton} + {2,3} TM 21:27:12 Gregor-L: No, but that isn't what I said. 21:27:14 Not just the interaction. 21:27:34 Instead of B(x), we do B(A(x)), where A's output /may be infinite and non-repeating/, but both A and B are sub-TC. 21:27:47 Prove then that B(A(x)) is not Turing-complete. 21:28:00 this has not been proved, if it has I am stating it wrong 21:28:06 because it was the fundamental disagreement about ais's proof 21:29:15 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:31:24 clearly soupdragon is not nterested :P 21:31:30 *interested 21:32:21 I am thinking about it now 21:32:42 yay 21:33:03 if you disprove it, i.e. it does not hold for all TMs, the controversy remains :( 21:38:26 soupdragon: so... prove it :P 21:38:49 I can't prove this 21:39:00 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:40:32 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:41:19 FUCK MY INTERNET CONNECTION 21:41:24 FUCK IT WITH A RUSTY HOSE 21:42:10 alise, I don't think it's true 21:42:18 Sgeo: OKAY 21:42:21 soupdragon: Why not? 21:42:31 I'd say it's very obviously intuitive. Just perhaps not true. 21:42:31 I think you have to put stronge restrictions on G than just subturing 21:42:48 why? 21:43:47 I haven't constructed but I can imagine there could be a TC FG where F and G are subturing 21:44:04 (probably exploiting the bijection between |N and |N*) 21:44:32 ok, but why do you imagine this? 21:45:12 It seems obvious to me that you cannot have complexity contained in a one way strand of communication, if the thing being communicated is not complex, and the thing it is being fed to does not have the power to create complex things, 21:45:17 then whence the complexity (Turing-completeness)? 21:47:20 soupdragon: EH EH 21:47:22 WHENCE 21:49:02 if you needed to calculate something, but you could only generate a bunch of stuff that included the answer - that might be subturing. If you could only find the correct answer in a stream that had it already, that would be subturing too -- but perhaps together turing 21:50:00 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:50:09 soupdragon: hmm 21:50:17 so like, that formula that gives negative -> not prime; positive -> prime 21:50:19 and a prime-checker 21:50:21 is a prime generator 21:50:27 even though neither can generate just primes? 21:50:33 yeah 21:50:39 I'm not sure it applies to Turing-completeness but it's a good argument 21:54:07 My step-mother asked me to look up "Calorie City" as a joke grr 21:54:48 wat 21:55:54 She often asks me to look up places, so I thought it was just another place to look up 21:56:00 So she wasted my time with a pathetic joke 21:56:52 You could not look up the places in future. 21:57:09 Anyway, how is it a joke? It lacks notable qualities, like even the seeming intent to be funny or meaningful in some way. 21:57:13 Maybe I just don't get it. 21:57:47 Tell your mom it says gullible on the ceiling 21:57:56 if she falls for it you have made her look up 21:58:10 no, tell her gullible is actually spelled "gulliable", and gullible is the americanisation 21:58:14 tell her to look it up in the dictionary 21:58:16 :P 21:58:34 Beautiful. 21:58:48 alise, she always tries to get me to eat, which I guess is nice 21:58:59 lol 22:02:31 I am really stunned by diophantine equations 22:03:29 Yeah, eating is kind of a good thing. 22:07:28 -!- `q` has changed nick to Quadrescence. 22:07:44 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 22:13:20 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:14:42 -!- augur_ has joined. 22:15:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:20:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:43:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:53:54 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:03:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:25:16 !haskell let prevSq n = (floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [n - prevSq n | n <- [1..50]] 23:25:33 [0,1,2,0,1,2,3,4,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,0,1] 23:25:44 oh wait 23:26:03 !haskell let prevSq n = (floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [n - prevSq n | x <- [1..50], let n = 2*x^2] 23:26:05 [1,4,2,7,1,8,17,7,18,4,17,32,14,31,9,28,2,23,46,16,41,7,34,63,25,56,14,47,1,36,73,23,62,8,49,92,34,79,17,64,113,47,98,28,81,7,62,119,41,100] 23:27:19 !haskell let prevSq n = (floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..50], let n = 2*x^2, n - prevSq n == 1] 23:27:21 [1,5,29] 23:28:20 !haskell 28*29*(2*28+1)`div` 6 23:28:22 7714 23:29:38 !haskell let prevSq n = (ceiling . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..50], let n = 2*x^2, n - nextSq n == -1] 23:30:08 !haskell let nextSq n = (ceiling . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..50], let n = 2*x^2, n - nextSq n == -1] 23:30:10 [2,12] 23:30:26 oh wait 23:30:47 !haskell 24*25*(2*24+1)`div` 6 23:30:49 4900 23:30:52 hah! 23:31:37 !haskell 2*29^2-1 23:31:38 1681 23:31:50 !haskell sqrt 1681 23:31:52 41.0 23:34:12 !haskell 29^2-1 23:34:14 840 23:35:39 !haskell let prevSq n = (floor . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..1000], let n = 2*x^2, n - prevSq n == 1] 23:35:41 [1,5,29,169,985] 23:38:43 !haskell let nextSq n = (ceiling . sqrt $ fromIntegral n)^2 in [x | x <- [1..1000], let n = 2*x^2, n - nextSq n == -1] 23:38:44 [2,12,70,408] 23:44:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:35 -!- aox has joined.