00:00:10 excel's "language" and VBA exist in localized versions 00:00:22 Any others? 00:00:45 It seems strange that all of them are in English 00:01:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:01:19 I think a sanskrit lisp would be very nice 00:01:29 Does it exist? 00:01:32 no 00:01:37 and I've seen some people talking about ideas for a chinese APL 00:01:39 Welp, rebooting the router isn't helping HTTP any. 00:01:53 Hm 00:01:57 Chinese APL? That would work quite well. 00:02:06 APL is terrible :) 00:02:07 I think Python has a Spanish version 00:02:07 it might be nice to take chinese characters and just use a random dictionary to map them to meanings in a programming language 00:02:08 pikhq, obviously this is your destiny 00:02:25 Of course, I'm a guy who uses Chinese characters to write English. :P 00:02:58 Look at this: http://blog.aegisub.org/2008/12/if-programming-languages-were-religions.html 00:03:07 See what it says about APL and VB =D 00:03:30 pikhq: nice! I was considering learning to do something like that, inventing my own english dialect using kanjis and translating all the linux software into it for sweet compactness and weirdness 00:04:26 Another thought: how are accents represented in HTML? 00:04:27 Hmm. 漢字-書en programming 語... The 意 amuses 僕 大tly. 00:04:43 maedhros777: Depends on the encoding format in use. 00:04:45 Or on a European keyboard? 00:05:22 Though the most general means of representing them is with the equivalent HTML entity. AKA a Unicode codepoint. 00:05:31 Oh, ok 00:05:38 But what about on a keyboard? 00:05:41 pikhq: kanji-something-en programming language... the thought amuses me greatly? 00:06:05 olsner: Kanji-written programming language. The idea amuses me greatly. 00:06:48 I use 考 for thought, and 意 for idea. The mapping is a bit imperfect, I admit, but it kinda-sorta works. 00:07:19 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:08:44 Bye now 00:08:45 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:09:05 the "idea" kanji looked similar to how I remembered japanese "thought", but after looking it up they're quite different 00:09:41 they just share the "heart" radical(?) in the bottom 00:10:45 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:10:46 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:12:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:15:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:16:21 GAH STOP DROPPING CONNECTIONS 00:16:51 How the hell is it that this damned thing manages to drop *specific connections*? 00:18:01 I cannot browse the web, but I can browse Gopher. 00:19:37 * Sgeo had that experience 00:19:43 Can you get to https:// stuff? 00:20:19 What's a good https server to try? 00:20:54 Used to use https://secondlife.com 00:21:31 * Sgeo looks for the login page for eBay 00:21:45 https://signin.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?SignIn&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2F 00:25:19 Well, I almost lost my Freenode connection, and didn't get the page loaded. 00:27:16 Oh, and I can't get an IM connection going at all. 00:30:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:31:16 -!- biduzido has joined. 00:32:14 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 00:32:19 Hello again 00:34:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:35:32 -!- Slereah has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:35:34 Nope, can't browse the web with Elinks. *While no other connections exist*. 00:36:15 I think I've got everything-but-what-normal-people-use Internet service. 00:36:41 Tunnel HTTP over IRC! 00:36:54 Very, very tempting. 00:37:07 "Connection reset by peer". :( 00:37:39 Can you connect to SSH? 00:37:57 Dunno; don't have a shell account handy. 00:38:17 uorygl, emergency ping 00:38:32 Hmm. What was the normal HTTP request? 00:38:36 HTTP 1.0 GET / 00:38:37 ? 00:38:42 No 00:38:47 GET / HTTP/1.1 00:38:52 I'd look it up, but I can't. 00:39:18 And you need to include the Host: header 00:41:07 Does anyone know if there are any Gravity compilers/interpreters out there? 00:41:13 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Gravity 00:41:39 pikhq, I'm getting someone to contact uorygl to see if I would be allowed to grant you a temporary account 00:41:53 -!- Slereah has joined. 00:42:16 maedhros777, I thought it was mathematically impossible to make a Gravity interp 00:42:26 At least, one that will actually run 00:42:27 maybe you could approximate an interpreter 00:42:39 Well, I guess you're right :) 00:42:48 But it seems like such a cool language 00:42:56 Shame it can't run anything =D 00:43:00 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:43:13 Isn't that, like, the definition of a programming language, that it is run? 00:43:40 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:43:53 Well, I'm having difficulty getting a response *using netcat to google*. 00:45:00 Hmm. Anyone know of an easy way to discover if it's MTU issues? 00:45:53 Oh yeah -- Sgeo, how do you do red text in IRC? 00:46:08 maedhros777, it only looks red because your name was mentioned 00:46:16 pikhq, I typed: 00:46:16 Genuinely red text is different 00:46:19 % nc www.google.com 80 00:46:20 HELLO 00:46:25 and google replied 00:46:30 Sgeo, hi 00:46:31 HTTP/1.0 400 Bad Request 00:46:31 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 00:46:32 Content-Length: 1350 00:46:32 Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 23:45:44 GMT 00:46:32 Server: GFE/2.0 00:46:32 pikhq_, did you see my privmsg 00:46:34 It doesn't work 00:46:43 Sgeo: Yeah. 00:46:43 maedhros777, I see it as red 00:46:44 Oh, you mean because it's my name? 00:46:46 Oh, ok 00:46:53 pikhq_, any luck? 00:46:53 soupdragon: I have managed to get responses out of Google. *Only to invalid requests*. 00:46:59 Sgeo: No. 00:47:01 I was always wondering why that happened :) 00:47:02 oh same here 00:47:11 pikhq_, bad connection, or did I mistype the password? 00:47:12 try telnet 00:48:42 pikhq_, so should I delete the account? 00:51:47 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:52:40 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:53:03 Well, that was succesful at making me lose every single connection. 00:53:07 hm? 00:53:13 Each and every one. 00:53:21 What was? 00:53:31 ssh 00:53:46 Oh :( 00:54:06 Relevant portion: 00:54:10 And you weren't successfully able to actually use it, though, I guess 00:54:17 debug1: Remote protocol version 2.0, remote software version OpenSSH_4.7p1 Debian-8ubuntu1.2 00:54:20 debug1: match: OpenSSH_4.7p1 Debian-8ubuntu1.2 pat OpenSSH_4* 00:54:22 debug1: Enabling compatibility mode for protocol 2.0 00:54:25 debug1: Local version string SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.3 00:54:27 debug2: fd 3 setting O_NONBLOCK 00:54:30 debug1: SSH2_MSG_KEXINIT sent 00:54:30 And then... *Nothing*. 00:54:32 debug3: Wrote 792 bytes for a total of 813 00:54:43 * Sgeo has no clue what any of that means 00:54:44 Yes, it stopped working during the key exchange. 00:55:15 The connection was made, but everything stopped working as soon as key negotiation began. 00:55:21 So can I delete the account? 00:55:24 :( 00:55:33 Yeah, I can't use it at all. 00:55:55 oh, you're using encryption? must be something subversive then! 00:56:07 Does anyone know of a program to generate LaTeX code, or a good tutorial? 00:56:39 you just write \sqrt{...} for square roots and \frac{...}{...} for division 00:56:44 that's all you need to know realyl..... 00:56:59 at lesat that's all I know and I get by 00:57:29 host header is mandatory in HTTP/1.1. 00:57:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 00:58:00 How about sigma? 00:58:13 Or exponents 01:00:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:00:38 I've got a theory that it's the router's fault. 01:01:12 pikhq, if you sent something containing HTTP-like stuff to IRC, what would happen? 01:01:14 pikhq: So nc www.googele.com 80 -> 'GET http://www.google.com/Host:' hangs? 01:01:27 fiddle furiously with the router settings for content filtering, firewall functions and intrusion prevention/detection 01:01:30 ifconfig certainly isn't showing any errors. 01:01:50 "fiddle furiously"? :) 01:01:52 * Sgeo notes that pikhq is probably glad that he's computer-savvy 01:02:01 Or at least, savvy enough to use IRC 01:02:11 maedhros777: yes, no other way to fiddle really 01:02:12 * Maedhros777 is wondering Sgeo makes text blue 01:02:19 :) 01:02:31 testing 01:02:33 Oops, I meant "how Sgeo makes text blue" 01:02:44 ? 01:02:48 Okay, watching ifconfig... 01:02:56 Is +c color filtering? 01:03:04 +c 01:03:07 ? 01:03:11 No errors. No dropped packets. Just an inexplicable lack of a response. 01:03:33 Ilari: Yes. 01:03:55 GET http://google.com is meaningless 01:04:22 Anyone want to -c the channel? 01:05:32 woah, who put swedish in the topic? 01:07:17 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:09:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:09:43 Okay, now with the only IRC connect being to Freenode. 01:10:19 And let's make the only room I'm in #esoteric. 01:10:58 AAGH WHY DONT I HAVE TCPDUMP 01:12:03 pikhq, what happens if you disable all firewalls? 01:12:42 Sgeo: I am behind no firewalls ATM. 01:13:12 I am directly connected to the modem, and I have no iptables rules, and the policy for INPUT, FORWARD, and OUTPUT is ACCEPT. 01:13:46 Is there a DMZ thing? 01:13:54 ... 01:13:57 Also, try a different OS? 01:14:02 I am DIRECTLY ATTACHED TO THE MODEM 01:14:13 And I'm on Linux. 01:14:29 Um, different distro then, or at least LiveCD? 01:14:35 See if it's some configuration issue 01:14:35 And lack the means to *install* a different OS *because I CANT MAKE ANY NON-IRC CONNECTIONS* 01:15:00 DCC! 01:15:19 I'm strongly suspecting that there's an MTU issue. 01:16:01 Uh, hown do I USE dcc chat on this 01:16:02 pikhq: After local updates finish, I could maybe help with testing... 01:16:09 dcc isn't an irc connection 01:16:18 it is Direct Client Connection 01:16:25 by definition you connect directly to the target :) 01:16:37 rather, they connect to you (if you are sending (unless you use "passive" dcc)) 01:16:56 From the looks of things, any sufficiently large packets are completely and utterly ignored? 01:17:14 well at least you can change the packet size with /dcc packetsize 01:17:16 under mirc 01:17:32 This is consistent with how the only HTTP response I have gotten is an error page. 01:17:33 Ok, anyone want to send pikhq a LiveCD? 01:17:47 hmm, I think there's a tool for discovering the smallest mtu between you and some other host 01:17:55 Or invent HTTP-over-DCC? 01:17:56 pikhq: MTU problems would cause that. More specifically, MTU problems on return path. 01:17:57 i don't have one, and also my upload is slooow 01:18:26 pikhq: What happenss if you set interface MTU to 1280? 01:18:28 Ilari: Fucking wonderful. Fucking *wonderful*. 01:18:37 Ilari: Same thing. 01:18:43 I actually have been playing with my MTU. 01:18:49 I don't have anything new, but I'll try 01:18:58 Because I have actually had this happen before when my MTU was set wrong. 01:19:35 If the other end has its MTU set wrong, I am going to hunt down my ISP and kill some people. 01:19:42 :) 01:19:55 Hm, maybe I shouldn't bother sending a livecd 01:20:48 pikhq, do you at least see me trying to send? 01:20:48 How do you accept a DCC send with irssi? 01:20:58 Sgeo: Yes. 01:21:52 Ugh. Locale generation is slow and I apparently have lot of them enabled. 01:22:54 Hmm. Anyone willing to set up an HTML server with an obscenely low MTU? 01:23:13 Is there a way to change MTU in Apache? 01:23:22 Or maybe I could try and figure out what the MTU *is* for this link? 01:23:32 Sgeo: "ifconfig eth0 mtu number-goes-here" 01:23:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_MTU_discovery 01:23:50 pikhq, um, is there a risk of losing my ssh connection? 01:24:13 olsner: Thanks. Thanks for the link that I cannot read. 01:24:35 Sgeo: No. 01:24:42 Ok, what MTU shall I set? 01:24:44 pikhq: :D 01:25:06 Sgeo: 1000 I guess? 01:25:09 The original MTU of Normish is 1500 01:25:15 1280 is high enough for IPv6 but low enough not to usually be a problem... 01:25:30 Done 01:25:36 But now I can't seem to type into ssh 01:25:37 Hmm. Could someone google the management IP for a "ViaSat Surfbeam satellite modem"? 01:25:45 http://normish.nomictools.com 01:26:28 I think I broke Normish 01:26:56 Oh crap, I typoed 01:27:09 "Connection reset by peer" 01:27:11 I forgot mtu, so I did sudo ifconfig eth0 1000 01:27:23 What are the *other* possible causes of that? 01:27:41 -!- biduzido has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:28:51 * Sgeo blames pikhq for my typo 01:30:25 Anyone? "Connection reset by peer" causes? 01:31:15 pikhq: tracepath says that the path-mtu between you and me is 1500 01:31:47 olsner: Okay, so it's not the MTU, then. 01:33:19 So I killed Normish for nothing?!? 01:33:52 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:37:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:38:08 pikhq: Can I send few pings there for testing? 01:38:42 Ilari: Go for it. 01:38:53 I've been using ping -s to google. 01:38:57 And getting truncation. 01:39:36 Does anyone know how to use a sigma in LaTeX? 01:40:03 1024 byte IP packets seem to work OK. Latencies are slow. 01:41:02 Well, I do have a very, very high-latency link. 01:41:04 So do 1500, and return packets do not seem truncated. 01:41:36 What's your IPv4 address, Ilari? 01:41:46 wow, I've never seen ping times this high before 01:41:58 *long, times are long 01:42:00 olsner: Satellite-tastic link. 01:42:26 you must really be in the middle of nowhere 01:42:32 I am. 01:42:32 move somewhere they have internet! 01:42:34 pikhq: You know how to do 6to4 address to ipv4 conversion? 01:42:50 Ilari: No, I'd look it up but I can't. 01:42:59 * pikhq shall ping olsner 01:43:25 12 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 10999ms 01:43:31 That's helpful. 01:43:34 that's weird, I can ping you 01:43:48 Your host is probably set to drop ICMP? 01:43:59 ah, right, I probably am 01:44:17 1.5-2.2 seconds 01:44:47 Ilari: ? 01:45:06 Does LaTeX work in the Esolang wiki? 01:45:14 I tried it and it didn't work 01:45:25 Just showed "a^2 " 01:45:45 so that means a TCP connection takes at least 4-6 seconds to set up? 01:45:52 olsner: Yeah. 01:46:04 More if DNS hasn't been cached. 01:47:27 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:47:28 pikhq: 2002:5870:32ae::1 -> 587032ae -> 1483748014. 01:47:41 Ilari: Thank you for not being helpful. 01:48:04 Could you stick that in a more useful format, like 4 octets? 01:48:31 ... Wait. You can just use the full number, can't you? 01:48:33 XD 01:48:44 8 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 6999ms 01:48:50 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 01:49:46 Hmf. No truncation when pinging slashdot. 01:50:16 But nor is there any actual access to slashdot via HTTP. 01:50:36 I've got half a mind to take a sledgehammer to a computer. 01:50:53 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:51:09 pikhq: There is small HTTP server on port 7682. 01:54:51 maybe they just use a timeout < 6s :) 01:54:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:55:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:55:58 pikhq_: pikhq: There is small HTTP server on port 7682. 01:56:22 There is? 01:56:47 Saw request (200 OK reply). 01:57:04 I'm certainly not getting the reply. 01:57:22 On Slashdot, or something else? 01:57:35 On Ilari's system. 01:58:07 ah 01:58:21 Ilari: How large was the reply? 02:01:53 pikhq_: The page size is about 900 bytes. 02:02:26 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:02:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:05:14 Gah. I can't use tcpdump (I have it installed but trying to use it sends load average through the roof). 02:05:30 And I cannot has tcpdump. 02:08:54 pikhq: Well, I set firewall to log all outbound IPv4 packets. 02:11:14 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:11:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:13:37 pikhq_: Maybe try requesting it again (I should see the outbound packets in firewall logs now)... 02:17:52 I see what looks like repeated TX attempts of 52 byte ACK + 98 byte ACK/PSH. 02:19:17 ... DST=75.106.103.227 LEN=98 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=64 ID=56999 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=7682 DPT=46258 WINDOW=432 RES=0x00 ACK PSH URGP=0 02:19:46 ... DST=75.106.103.227 LEN=52 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=64 ID=61552 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=7682 DPT=46259 WINDOW=432 RES=0x00 ACK URGP=0 02:19:47 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:21:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:21:22 I also saw this: DST=75.106.103.227 LEN=938 TOS=0x00 PREC=0x00 TTL=64 ID=27331 DF PROTO=TCP SPT=7682 DPT=46261 WINDOW=432 RES=0x00 ACK PSH FIN ... No re-TX seen. 02:21:37 ... 02:21:50 What was there before "I also saw this"? 02:21:56 20:13 < Ilari> pikhq_: Maybe try requesting it again (I should see the outbound packets in firewall logs now)... 02:21:59 Last thing I saw. 02:22:56 I see what looks like repeated TX attempts of 52 byte ACK + 98 byte ACK/PSH. 02:23:16 Hrm. 02:23:30 So this implies... What? 02:23:57 Also hmm... What was that 938 byte ACK/PSH/FIN packet there about? I didn't see any retransmits... 02:23:58 My ISP is about as reliable as smoke signals from on top of an active volcano? 02:24:53 whee, size 7.8 font 02:25:06 -!- sshc has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:26:22 Obiviously not MTU problem when packets that small have problems and packets of 1.5kB make through... 02:27:08 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:27:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:29:41 pikhq: Also, why IRC is pretty much only thing that works (it is unstable, but...)? 02:29:54 IRC is presumably low-bandwidth. 02:30:02 I can't connect to irc.foonetic.net. 02:30:15 But still, mostly I can do IRC. 02:34:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:34:58 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:35:02 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 02:35:09 Ilari, try wireshark as root, generally it works, probably the tcpdump issue is just a command line flag issue or such 02:35:20 of course, wireshark will complain loudly 02:35:25 about you running it as root 02:35:39 it is up to you to decide if you want to do that 02:35:52 Is there a way to make my .avis take up much less space? 02:36:09 Sgeo, compress them? 02:36:23 Sgeo, ogg theora, mpeg, or whatever 02:36:27 or zip if you prefer that 02:36:34 Sgeo, iirc avi is uncompressed 02:36:38 but not 100% sure 02:36:39 AnMaster: I can't run graphical apps as root. 02:36:47 Ilari, gtksudo? 02:36:55 Ilari, or ksu or whatever kde has 02:37:36 Ilari, for me graphical apps for root work with "sudo programname" but not "sudo -s" or su or "sudo su -" 02:37:48 which is somewhat strange yes 02:38:06 How do I get Archive Manager to compress to maximum possible extent? 02:38:24 Sgeo, which one? 02:38:34 the one with GNOME 02:38:42 uh no idea, I use cmd line tools 02:38:55 AnMaster: None of those work (I am not authorized for those). 02:39:10 Ilari, eh? so you don't have root access locally? 02:39:21 Ilari, then you are pretty much fucked 02:39:59 * Ilari deletes the firewall log rule... 02:41:03 Sgeo, something like tar -jcf foo.tar.bz2 foo for bzip2, not sure if it is max, but it would be trivial to do something like: tar -cf - foo | xz -z9e - > foo.tar.xz 02:41:10 that may not work exactly like that 02:41:15 haven't test run the latter command 02:41:26 but it should work, or something pretty close to it 02:41:31 better test to make sure 02:41:48 * Sgeo somehow doubts it will get 12GB of video down to less than 1GB 02:41:53 oh and if you want zip I have absolutely no clue about anything except unzip 02:41:59 Sgeo, well yes 02:42:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:42:06 "yes"? 02:42:08 Sgeo, not without lossy compression 02:42:22 Ok, how do I do lossy compression on the command line? 02:42:25 so you want mpeg or ogg theora or such 02:43:02 Well, IIRC gzip could compress ~59GiB of raw video data (video dump from game) to about 2GB... 02:43:21 Ilari, huh 02:43:58 Sgeo, I don't know, I would read the manual for the the relevant programs. In this case that is probably ffmpeg or such 02:44:11 Well, it has large single-color surfaces, which really tends to compress well... 02:44:25 Sgeo, oh and -9e to xz might not be a good idea, I wouldn't be surprised if it took days 02:44:33 something like just -9 might be better 02:44:36 but you asked for max 02:45:53 tgz -9cf . > futurama.tgz 02:45:58 Why is that not working like I want? 02:46:29 ... 02:46:34 Sgeo, I have no clue what tgz is 02:46:42 it is an unknown command to me 02:46:56 tgz doesn't accept options 02:47:19 just run tar with -z 02:47:27 coppro, someone made an alias for tar -z? 02:47:42 AnMaster: no, for tar | gzip 02:47:48 which is strictly worse 02:47:57 coppro, well passing -f and redirecting stdout makes no sense at all 02:48:34 that too 02:49:29 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 02:49:46 With just tgz futurama.tgz, will it be much larger than I want/ 02:50:05 stop using tgz 02:50:06 use tar 02:50:17 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:51:51 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:52:22 Hey, look. Freenode's back. 02:52:29 I doubt any other Internet is. 02:54:11 Nope. Still don't have *the fuckinsadfgnklasdjgh;blohzsadvjhnasb;hg web* 02:54:34 Sgeo, tar -zcf futurama.tgz dirwithfuturama 02:54:38 Sgeo, do not use . there 02:54:45 Sgeo, because then it might try to include itself 02:54:47 Sgeo: .avis are compressed. 02:54:52 and yes it would be much bigger 02:55:13 A .avi file is just a container for some video compression format. 02:55:19 AnMaster, should I include 9? 02:55:23 pikhq, sure? I'm pretty sure they were uncompressed, or perhaps it can be uncompressed as well? 02:55:33 Sgeo, tar doesn't take that option afaik, check man page 02:55:36 AnMaster: It's a container format. 02:55:44 pikhq, and can it contain uncompressed? 02:55:54 Yes, that is one such codec. 02:56:01 Almost *nobody* uses it for raw video though. 02:56:04 pikhq: Maybe phone ISP tech support? Or is the average IQ below CMB temperature there? 02:56:44 -!- lament has joined. 02:59:10 AnMaster, I'm not getting status on the command line the way I did with tgz 02:59:20 Sgeo, mhm 02:59:23 what about it? 02:59:43 AnMaster, I want to see the progress as it's being made.. wait, that's -v, isn't it? 02:59:52 I doubt tar itself does that 02:59:53 Yep 03:00:13 but if as pikhq said it is compressed then I doubt this will help at all 03:00:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:02:08 Indeed, it seems to not be helping 03:02:09 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:02:26 So, how do I reencode the videos? 03:02:34 Basically, I just want to play these things on my phone 03:07:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:15:26 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:21:31 -!- lament has joined. 03:23:00 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 03:29:24 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:30:58 Well, I guess my IRC connection has stabled out. 03:31:07 I'm still not getting any not-IRC. 03:39:18 pikhq, can you telnet? 03:39:33 try telnet alt.nethack.org 03:39:48 -!- sshc has joined. 03:39:48 erm, not 03:40:08 telnet nethack.alt.org 03:41:01 Yes. 03:41:14 Lagtastic, but yes. 03:42:00 Hm 03:43:58 And I can gopher. 03:44:13 pikhq, irc.xkcd.com#xkcd 03:44:26 And I cannot connect to Foonetic. 03:45:07 You can't just switch ISPs? 03:45:13 Maybe I can bridge a channel on FreeNode with Foonetic 03:45:27 coppro: If I could I would. 03:45:36 Actually, I can *connect* to Foonetic. 03:45:52 Joining #xkcd causes the connection to drop. 03:46:47 pikhq, can you connect to any other channels on Foonetic? 03:47:10 Think so. 03:47:39 So, join #pikhq and I'll direct anyone who wants to help to there? 03:48:55 God dammit it autojoined. 03:49:04 But I'm still connected. 03:49:28 Hm 03:49:41 pikhq, are you receiving chat? 03:50:02 Nothing from #xkcd after "<@res0> puddle dried up" 03:50:11 And... Lagging out. 03:50:18 Ah 03:50:23 Ok, I'll set up a bridge 03:50:25 #pikhq 03:50:28 erm, 03:50:40 #pikhq here will connect to #pikhq there 03:53:03 Gah. At the rate this is going I'm starting to think some asswad at the ISP is actually monitoring for connections that use "too much bandwidth" to drop them or something. 04:03:55 pikhq, ping, you're still in Foonetic, right? 04:06:50 pikhq pikhq pikhq 04:07:20 -!- soupdragon has quit (Quit: soupdragon). 04:08:37 pikhq, why are you not responding in Foonetic??? 04:19:03 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:20:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:24:16 -!- FireFly has joined. 04:27:43 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:28:42 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:36:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:37:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:42:47 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:43:17 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:45:58 -!- lament has joined. 04:49:11 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:50:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:51:01 So, apparently I have 88% packet loss. 04:51:18 I'm amazed I can do IP. 04:51:40 How are you connected to your ISP? 04:51:42 *TCP 04:51:52 You can "do IP" with 99% packet loss :P 04:52:02 uorygl: I send my packets TO SPACE 04:52:12 And a satellite sends them back FROM SPACE 04:52:18 Satellite? Sounds laggy. 04:52:30 Yes, I normally have 2-second pings. 04:55:54 At least it isn't Freenet. 04:56:09 Yeah, not as laggy as Freenet. 04:56:25 * uorygl ponders what the mail system would be like if it were like Freenet. 04:56:36 It would be like Freenet. 04:57:04 I guess people wouldn't receive messages until they look in their mailboxes. 04:57:11 Which is already how it works, so I guess it would be exactly the same. 04:57:29 Satellite Internet: Not As Laggy As The United States Postal Service. 04:58:57 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:59:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:08:22 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Quit: Plugging in the router). 05:10:45 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:11:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:16:06 pikhq, Internet success? 05:16:20 I appear to have issues with #xkcd still. XD 05:16:33 But I can browse t3h webs! 05:17:22 pikhq, you are in #xkcd 05:17:32 I'm lagging out. 05:18:15 Ah 05:18:36 BUT WEB 05:18:37 HTTP 05:18:40 MY GOD 05:19:01 I've just been wondering -- are there any esoteric or real programming languages in another language (besides English)? 05:19:12 i recall an icelandic one being discussed 05:19:22 There's Perligata. 05:19:48 skrifastreng ("writestring") was one of the commands, iirc 05:20:17 which was enough to google it, it's called Grunnur 05:20:36 no wait 05:20:41 that was just another command 05:20:58 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fj%C3%B6lnir_(programming_language) 05:21:46 which also leads us to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Non-English-based_programming_languages 05:22:24 although a lot of those are esolangs not based on a real natlang at all :D 05:23:01 -!- adu has joined. 05:23:55 i guess Zuse's Plankalkül is also pretty famous 05:24:32 Yup, /join #xkcd kills my Freenode link. 05:24:33 (and presumably german, although the wikipedia sample doesn't really show it) 05:24:51 Erm. 05:24:52 Foonetic. 05:29:27 * coppro is reading about GOTO++. If he translates the French correctly, each program is compiled to an intermediate representation and a custom VM to interpret it 05:41:40 -!- gm|lap has joined. 05:53:24 downloading ghc because hugs interactive mode is ass 05:53:39 at least from what i can establish 05:56:28 oh dear, i just realised what i typed 05:56:29 ben@95lx:~$ man hugs 05:58:28 Whoa. 05:58:41 ICANN is doing non-ASCII TLDs. 05:59:00 it's all greek to me. or was that arabic. 05:59:19 * gm|lap gets kommrade.☭ 05:59:54 actually if unicode gets a cheeseburger glyph 06:00:03 http://xn----rmckbbajlc6dj7bxne2c.xn--wgbh1c/ This is the hostname of the Egyptian Ministry of Communications and Information Technology. 06:00:04 then ICANN has (cheeseburger) 06:01:12 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 06:02:08 >_> 06:03:04 nice 06:14:06 gm|lap: I wurve the man command. 06:14:09 man mount 06:14:12 man touch 06:14:28 man finger 06:14:46 ouch 06:25:44 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:28:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:29:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:29:25 yes;yes;yes 06:35:50 -!- HackEgo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:35:50 -!- EgoBot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:35:53 -!- HackEgo has joined. 06:35:53 -!- EgoBot has joined. 06:38:12 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:46:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:50:00 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 07:03:50 -!- tombom has joined. 07:25:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:30:13 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:30:21 hello 07:31:24 rawr. 07:31:31 i 07:31:37 you 07:31:43 he, she, it 07:31:43 me 07:31:44 we 07:31:45 they 07:31:50 ok 07:31:53 i screwed up 07:31:55 i missed a you 07:32:00 and placed a Mii 07:33:16 moi 07:33:18 toi 07:35:56 lui, elle, soi 07:37:20 oh my 07:37:20 http://translationparty.com/#7352230 07:37:30 "code esoteric language do make real brain make" 07:37:31 gives 07:37:42 "Esoteric language code is actually generated by the brain" 07:40:46 now, "talk make esoteric malbolge do do and create code generation" 07:40:55 apparently crashes translationparty 07:41:06 doesn't always work: http://translationparty.com/#7352244 07:41:44 i got a 2-cycle http://translationparty.com/#7352245 07:41:55 http://translationparty.com/#7352249 07:42:08 and the site doesnt test for cycles :( 07:42:21 lame 07:42:29 lament, do you want to lament about it? :P 07:43:02 http://translationparty.com/#7352252 07:44:05 http://translationparty.com/#7352257 07:44:05 "talk make esoteric malbolge do do and create code generation" 07:44:23 gives "Malbolge Thus, the code generator can create a powerful statement" 07:44:57 http://translationparty.com/#7352261 07:47:24 http://translationparty.com/#7352274 - a certain volcano you all know 07:47:29 separated by " " every 2 letters 07:47:37 gives The Castle District in the North Fiji fatal Raja 07:48:12 http://translationparty.com/#7352277 07:48:56 so you say i did a difficult thing? 07:48:57 how? 07:49:15 "as ie ki er ka" gives 07:49:25 "In other words, the ER department" 07:50:45 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:50:52 http://translationparty.com/#7352287 07:51:12 this one is deep: http://translationparty.com/#7352286 07:51:58 http://translationparty.com/#7352295 vs http://translationparty.com/#7352293 07:52:59 afk, food 07:59:35 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:20 Iteresting 08:00:23 *Interesting 08:00:34 I have managed to get it to produce a word that it cannot translate in either direction 08:02:03 I've also yet to produce an input including both 'quark' and 'gluon' which doesn't cause it to fail to translate at least one word 08:02:12 http://translationparty.com/#7352347 08:02:32 kanji makes it into english 08:02:52 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:03:11 The word "kanji"? 08:03:22 Or actual kanji? 08:03:26 * pikhq shall look 08:03:34 * Sgeo should sleep now 08:03:39 kan-G 08:04:18 My goodness. Actual kanji. 08:04:53 "Stars hidden in a crowd of his [face-haven]"? 08:07:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:14:04 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:16:57 -!- asiekierka has joined. 08:21:08 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:30:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:37:37 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:54:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 08:57:52 ugh... is translationparty broken? 09:35:28 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:59:28 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 10:22:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:32:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 10:51:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 10:52:24 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:31:38 -!- cheater3 has joined. 11:34:05 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:37:03 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 11:45:17 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua). 11:46:38 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 12:01:00 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 12:09:32 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: sleeeeeep). 12:30:29 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:31:39 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:31:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:42:45 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:43:16 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:54:08 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:54:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:58:26 -!- pikhq has joined. 12:59:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:04:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:05:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:13:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 13:29:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:47:08 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:10:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:37:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:41:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:41:30 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:46:30 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:53:09 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 14:54:01 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 14:56:29 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:59:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:06:26 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:07:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:12:49 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:13:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:14:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:19:36 I have an idea for how to make an AI. It is probably crazy. And someone probably thought of it already... 15:20:36 (oh and it probably won't work) 15:21:56 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:22:21 the latter being a pretty safe assumption 15:22:23 basically simulate evolution with genetic algorithms, don't aim for AI that can pass the turing test right away, rather aim for something that can respond to it's simulated environment, say, along the lines of a very very simple bacteria, when you have something reasonable there, extend the fitness test to require something more 15:22:24 and so on 15:22:27 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:22:30 oerjan, what do you think? 15:22:34 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 15:23:13 well i'm sure it's been thought of before yeah... 15:23:14 presumably you could work yourself up to something that could seem like a simple AI in some hundred years. Unlikely to take as long as real evolution since computers are rather fast. 15:23:31 oerjan, was it tested though? 15:23:48 i didn't say i knew who did it 15:23:51 ah 15:23:56 just that it's too obvious 15:24:25 oerjan, heard that story of Columbus and the egg? 15:24:26 ;P 15:24:27 i suspect the problem is you are enormously underestimating the complexity of environment needed to evolve intelligence 15:25:00 (there is even a separate wikipedia page on it heh) 15:25:39 i've heard one such story, which fits the subject so i assume that is it 15:26:14 oerjan, hm I did consider complexity but I wasn't sure how bad it would be, bad yes but no idea how bad. 15:26:15 ("anyone could have thought of that" "but they didn't!" essentially) 15:26:22 but probably I underestimated it yes 15:26:27 oerjan, yes 15:27:02 also i think there is a theory that much of the final intelligence evolution was due to social interaction between humans 15:27:32 oerjan, considering you can get interesting things with breading FPGAs (famous example is that circuit able to detect two different tones, without using a reference clock) 15:27:45 presumably we tried to evolve to outsmart each other :) 15:28:10 (seeing as the other highly intelligent animals are also highly social) 15:28:12 oerjan, okay so you could introduce that in your environment after you get something that is able to be aware of other AIs in that environment 15:28:33 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:28:40 for speed reasons you could probably skip that during the initial stages, but it should probably be introduced not too late either 15:29:11 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:29:46 oerjan, but yes, it probably would take too much resources to be feasible :/ 15:30:34 oerjan, on the other hand I suspect designing an AI with "traditional engineering" may be unfeasible for humans. 15:31:22 as long as we don't know how _humans_ manage to be intelligent, sure 15:31:42 oerjan, heck if you wanted to evolve AIs like that you would probably have to make the environment (the fitness function) dynamic too. I mean, consider on earth, life changed the environment a lot 15:32:13 stuff like production of oxygen I mean 15:32:14 yes. although maybe artificial evolution could skip some of the long static periods. 15:32:46 oerjan, what do you mean here? 15:33:08 (I can think of several interpretations of that statement) 15:33:49 life didn't evolve fast _all_ the time, because the environment didn't always change much. punctuated equilibrium, it's called afair 15:34:07 true 15:35:42 oerjan, but it still changed, surely you can't just keep the same generation and extrapolate the environment 10 million years? It seems quite possible that then everything will be unfit. I mean, small gradual changes in environment are not too hard to adapt to, compared to sharp changes. 15:35:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:36:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:36:49 well species _do_ occasionally die out when they are unfit for a new environment, i presume 15:37:18 oerjan, even if nothing much happened it seems unlikely to have been completely static, and perhaps some random mutation in the skipped generations would have caused far reaching consequences. 15:37:27 although i don't know how much is environment and how much is new competition 15:37:42 oerjan, just think of production of oxygen, iirc things were pretty static before that for quite some time. 15:38:01 well naturally not completely static there are _all_ kinds of cycles and events 15:38:12 indeed 15:38:48 btw, I doubt actually simulating the chemical earth is a good idea for such AI evolution. 15:40:02 oerjan, ooh new idea that ensures a high probability of friendly AI! However it requires some technology we don't yet have. And I have no idea how much storage space it needs... 15:40:24 oerjan, basically, model a human. Every molecule 15:40:31 then simulate this system 15:40:41 primates presumably evolved some of that brain to be able to distinguish a lot of different foods (fruit) visually, they have an extremely varied (and time-varying) diet 15:40:55 hm interesting 15:41:35 because not all forest plants bear fruit at the same time 15:41:42 true 15:41:45 especially in the tropics 15:42:15 actually, just simulating a cell down to molecular level should be interesting enough and quite hard. 15:42:42 i'm not entirely convinced emulating humans is the best recipe for friendliness. especially once you try to go _beyond_ human intelligence 15:42:45 and might help find out how feasible doing anything more advanced would be (I guess it wouldn't at all) 15:43:05 oerjan, hm true. but at least you would get an AI passing the turing test 15:43:08 we're not known for being friendly with inferior species 15:43:28 (unless it suits us) 15:44:52 bbl, strange sound from computer 15:45:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 15:45:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:48:12 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:48:54 unable to locate source 15:49:01 and doesn't repeat hm... 15:55:57 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:00:53 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 16:07:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:12:28 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:14:17 -!- lament has joined. 16:15:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:17:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:17:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:22:41 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:30:35 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 16:31:20 I just spent three-fourths of my savings on dvds and printer ink last night. Now, I finally have more in my checking account than in my savings account. This sucks. 16:33:18 oh, and main(){cout << "I'm an idiot that still uses iosttream." << endl;} 16:33:43 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:34:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 16:38:24 I have a question about brainfuck. How does one output text to standard output using it? 16:38:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:43:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:43:10 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:43:21 I gotta log off. I'm using my blackberry... 16:46:21 sorry about telling the world how broke I am. I'm just pissed at myself for not realizing that having $70 in savings is a bad idea. 16:46:47 -!- benuphoenix has left (?). 16:47:15 I love the way that xkcd's irc bot isn't much more sophisticated than our very own fungot. 16:47:15 Phantom_Hoover: it's time you jumped off this mortal coil... are you all right? of course! you were so young! you ran around saying " daddy! the children are going?! the king hast been injured? what's the big deal? so what if we won a war out there! can't it see i love my daddy! the children are going! 16:47:32 See? 16:48:30 ^style 16:48:30 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 16:48:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:48:54 ^help 16:48:54 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 16:49:04 ^help style 16:49:04 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 16:50:06 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 16:50:23 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:50:40 ^style 16:50:40 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 16:50:47 ^style youtube 16:50:47 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 16:50:51 fungot 16:50:52 Phantom_Hoover: holy crap, that was just making that up in time. 16:52:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:52:07 ^style lovecraft 16:52:07 Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) 16:52:12 lol, in some programming channel: "<***> its like brainfuck to me" 16:52:30 fungot 16:52:33 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 16:52:37 fungot 16:52:40 Bah! 16:52:46 fungot the fickle 16:52:47 oerjan: " you, mr. de marigny and phillips, across the putrid moat and under the prevailing stimulus my son wingate would often go up to different heights and scan the fnord waste for signs of dim, fumbling terror about the way he knew it would be 16:55:29 * Phantom_Hoover is going to do horrible things to his X server so as to play Portal 16:55:32 Night 16:56:25 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:57:24 yay im on my way to making my IRC bot in an esoteric language! 16:58:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:58:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:58:40 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:01:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:12:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:12:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:25:09 -!- tombom has joined. 17:33:04 -!- benuphoenix has left (?). 17:36:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:42:44 -!- AnMaster has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:51:15 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:56:01 -!- jcp has joined. 18:00:29 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:15:56 -!- MizardX has joined. 18:17:24 -!- AnMaster has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:21:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:21:25 -!- tombom_ has joined. 18:22:00 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:22:40 -!- tombom__ has joined. 18:23:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:24:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:24:20 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:26:00 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:26:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:31:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:39:23 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 18:41:47 Calling all alise. Calling all alise. 18:41:53 Is there an alise in the room? 18:43:50 -!- oerjan has changed nick to MIB. 18:44:03 There is no such thing as an alise 18:44:07 -!- MIB has changed nick to oerjan. 18:45:03 Swamp gas, weather balloons, so on. 18:45:30 just so much hot air 18:45:40 -!- augur has joined. 18:48:15 http://www.ioccc.org/1984/mullender.c I love obfuscated C. 18:48:37 (VAX and PDP-11) 18:49:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:00:12 hmm, anything really interesting happen while I was gone? 19:00:21 preferably eso-wise, but I don't mind too much if it's offtopic 19:01:07 Well, I did have odd network behavior wherein I could access IRC and Gopher and nothing else. 19:10:08 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:13:39 -!- Gregor-L_ has joined. 19:14:34 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:17:12 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:18:18 -!- Gregor-L_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:18:45 -!- Gregor-L_ has joined. 19:19:37 pikhq: that sounds amusing 19:20:09 Good God it was annoying. 19:22:10 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:26:52 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 19:54:38 I think my adsl modem is having hardware issues 19:56:00 after rebooting it (due to it becoming unresponsive to dns, then a few minutes later connections dying and finally the webui of the modem itself going down), it had reset about half of the settings 19:56:06 some with garbage, some with factory defaults 19:56:28 now I did a clean install of it, and found out I can't let it reboot after it, nor can I restore config 19:56:38 so there are some settings I can't change 19:56:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:56:59 ais523, pikhq: ever heard about anything like that? 19:57:10 I haven't 19:57:20 but then, I tend not to mess with modems/routers, I just leave them be 19:57:25 hm? 19:57:31 ais523, well I was leaving it alone when this happened 19:57:52 ais523, plus I can't use defaults, no password for admin and wep for wlan... :P 19:57:57 no way I will leave a modem like that 19:58:17 plus I need to enter PPPoE settings anyway 19:58:21 or it won't connect 20:01:11 ais523, plus it worked okay before... 20:07:20 -!- Alex3012 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:07:29 -!- soupdragon has joined. 20:07:57 -!- Alex3012 has joined. 20:22:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:22:55 OK, thought experiment: 20:23:01 -!- soupdragon has quit (Quit: soupdragon). 20:23:17 -!- soupdragon has joined. 20:23:28 If I make a filesystem on a file, then mount it, then try to move the file into the mounted filesystem, what happens? 20:24:01 O_o 20:24:09 o___O? 20:24:25 Oh, wait, it's obvious. 20:24:34 I don't have a problem with it 20:24:54 The file would have to be larger than the free space in the filesystem. 20:25:07 Phantom_Hoover: Either the system call fails, or a copy of the filesystem is stuck in the file system, and the reference count of the filesystem's file is decremented. 20:25:21 Meaning that once you unmount the filesystem, it completely disappears. 20:25:34 But to where? 20:25:48 To where what? 20:25:58 Whither does it disappear? 20:26:39 Same place any non-referenced inodes and blocks go: the free list. 20:26:47 Phantom_Hoover, hm squashfs is read-only isn't it? 20:27:53 pikhq, also which system call(s) fails? open/read/write/close or unlink? 20:28:09 well the size thing makes it probably the former group 20:28:16 -!- Guest_854 has joined. 20:28:32 AnMaster: ... rename? 20:28:47 pikhq, it works between filesystems? 20:28:49 huh 20:28:56 * pikhq looks 20:29:01 oh maybe the copy and remove is done in kernel then 20:29:08 Nope, it doesn't. 20:29:42 rename will return EXDEV, which means the move command does open, read, write, close, and unlink. 20:29:49 -!- hiato has joined. 20:29:53 So, it's the second behavior I described, not the first. 20:30:00 yeah 20:30:20 pikhq, but it would fail since unless the fs is compressed it will be larger than the space available on that disk 20:30:29 and compressed fs have a tendency of being read-only 20:30:30 * Phantom_Hoover tries it 20:30:40 AnMaster: He never said anything about it being compressed. 20:30:49 And many, many filesystems support sparse files. 20:30:58 It worked. 20:31:02 0.o 20:31:09 pikhq, hm good point, but doesn't those need some special command to create it? 20:31:23 I fear to unmount it, lest I destroy the universe. 20:31:40 Phantom_Hoover, unlikely. 20:31:43 very unlikely 20:31:59 Or, more importantly, my computer. 20:32:09 Also unlikely, I suppose. 20:32:12 Phantom_Hoover, you have to remember mv basically copies the file then removes the original when moving between different mount points 20:32:24 -!- Guest_854 has quit (Quit: He who laughs last, thinks slowest). 20:32:43 AnMaster: GNU mv attempts to keep files sparse. 20:32:47 So it hasn't really copied? 20:32:48 within a mount point it will just be moved in file hierarchy by the kernel in some way (probably varies between different FS) 20:32:53 And no, there's no "special command" to create it. 20:32:58 pikhq, hm 20:33:19 Instead, you just seek and write. 20:33:20 pikhq, so how does it try to keep them sparse? 20:33:23 aha 20:33:52 well that explains why the copy worked 20:34:07 Phantom_Hoover: mv copies the file to the new filesystem. It then unlinks the file in the old filesystem. 20:34:17 Phantom_Hoover, the image on there is likely corrupt since probably it was written to while mv was reading it 20:34:20 All that an unlink does, though, is remove the name for the inode. 20:34:49 Any program that had the file open is still reading from that inode. 20:35:02 When no programs access it, then the inode is marked free. 20:35:14 pikhq, correction: if it was the last hardlink the file will be marked as free 20:35:25 or rather the inode 20:35:36 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 20:35:37 AnMaster: Right, right. You can have multiple names attached. 20:35:40 but the bit about hardlinks is important, otherwise it would cause havoc. 20:35:53 pikhq, there is no way to find all attached names is there though? 20:35:57 I can read and write files in the mounted fs without corruption. 20:36:09 AnMaster: Sure there is. Grep. 20:36:15 Phantom_Hoover, expected, what I said was that the image stored on that fs is now corrupted 20:36:28 pikhq, hm or find /mountpoint -inode or such I bet 20:36:45 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, that's because your mounted filesystem is still on the original filesystem. 20:36:45 iirc you can get the inode with either some ls option or with stat(1) 20:36:52 It just no longer has a *name*. 20:37:06 Oh, so the data is still there. 20:37:20 -!- hiato has changed nick to sheep. 20:37:22 Yes, that's what *we've been fucking telling you*. 20:37:28 -!- sheep has changed nick to hiato. 20:37:32 OK! 20:37:37 A UNIX filesystem is reference counted. 20:37:45 pikhq, hm can you have more than one name for a symlink? as in ln -s /bin foo; ln foo bar 20:37:46 "ls -i"'s the list-inode option; it's the easiest to remember. 20:37:57 AnMaster: Filesystem-dependent. 20:38:00 pikhq, ah 20:38:28 I only have ext2/4 handy, and I'm not about to mess around on /boot to try ext2 behaviour 20:38:43 fizzie, how is it easier to remember than ls -l ? 20:38:48 AnMaster: I'm pretty sure that ext2 filesystems shove the symlink data in the filename structure. 20:38:55 Well. The file structure. 20:38:56 at least ls -l you use sometimes 20:38:56 fine structure 20:39:07 XD 20:39:15 (along with the filename, permissions, extended attributes, etc.) 20:39:27 pikhq, so that means it wouldn't or would work? 20:39:39 AnMaster: Wouldn't, as a symlink does not have an inode. 20:39:47 AnMaster: The superlative may have been superfluous. Let's settle for "easy to remember". 20:40:26 no symlinks on /boot 20:40:50 fizzie, agreed 20:41:18 doh anyway this /boot is ext3, I wonder why 20:41:30 pikhq, ext4 shows inode numbers for ls -i 20:41:34 for symlinks 20:41:39 same for ext3 20:41:42 AnMaster: Hrm. 20:41:54 "Ext2fs implements fast symbolic links. A fast symbolic link does not use any data block on the filesystem. The target name is not stored in a data block but in the inode itself." 20:41:59 So it has an inode; it doesn't have data. 20:42:00 and yeah ext2 I can't find any of atm, seems I have all my /boots as ext3 20:42:10 AnMaster: Ah, I'm having a thinko. 20:42:12 ah 20:42:21 now FAT on the other hand 20:42:23 The inode *is* where the file stuff is stored. 20:42:26 (Though they say the fast symlinks have a maximum length limit of 60 chars. Might be dependant on inode size though.) 20:42:44 And a hardlink is a new inode that points to the same blocks as another one. 20:42:51 ah 20:43:08 pikhq, where is the filename then, is it not stored with the inode? 20:43:17 hm probably in directory structure 20:43:24 Directory structure. 20:43:29 also doesn't ext4 store very small files inline in the inode or something? 20:43:37 Yes. 20:43:46 so hardlinks wouldn't work for those? 20:43:48 Ext4 also doesn't use blocks for very *large* files when it can. 20:43:55 I know about the extents 20:44:04 No, I think hardlinking will force ext4 to create a block. 20:44:23 Hardlinking *is* a system call. It can do that. ;) 20:44:28 true 20:44:40 symlinking must be some system call too I guess 20:44:45 no idea which one 20:44:57 oh symlink(2) XD 20:45:20 I'm not sure "hardlink is a new inode that points to the same blocks as another one" is true, because I believe it's the inode that stores the link count. 20:45:42 hm probably 20:45:48 and they have the same inode number 20:45:50 iirc 20:46:05 yep test shows they get same inode number (regular file) 20:46:43 "POSIX.1-2001 says that link() should dereference oldpath if it is a symbolic link. However, since kernel 2.0, Linux does not do so: if oldpath is a symbolic link, then newpath is created as a (hard) link to the same symbolic link file (i.e., newpath becomes a symbolic link to the same file that oldpath refers to)." 20:46:44 heh 20:46:52 Also ls here seems to color "link count >1" files differently. If I have noticed this before, I've forgotten. 20:47:14 fizzie, not here, but then ls on my laptop and desktop follow slightly different rules sometimes 20:47:25 very distro dependant I think 20:47:42 "POSIX.1-2008 changes the specification of link(), making it implementation-dependent whether or not oldpath is dereferenced if it is a symbolic link." 20:47:44 heh 20:50:25 dircolors --print-database says "HARDLINK 44;37 # regular file with more than one link", so it at least provides a possibility to colorize it differently. 20:51:10 Also sockets and doors have the same color here. Not that I'm very likely to run across a door. 20:51:52 btw wonderful word "a nondirectory" 20:52:02 from path_resolution(7) 20:52:06 One thing I absolutely *despise* about Wikipedia's new design. 20:52:24 They changed the search box location? 20:52:26 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:52:31 pikhq, oh don't get me started on google's new design 20:52:33 it is just as bad 20:52:34 They have an uncacheable Javascript file in the head of the file. 20:52:45 That takes *forever* to load. 20:52:47 pikhq, what on earth for? 20:52:53 and it is fast here 20:52:57 but I use noscript 20:53:06 don't think I allowed scripts on wp 20:53:35 No, wait, those are cachable. What *else* is it that's taking forever? 20:53:43 pikhq: If you have an account you can change it back to the old Monobook skin. 20:54:12 Phantom_Hoover: Oh, so I have an excuse to log in. 20:54:13 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 20:54:22 * pikhq shall log in and purge that 20:54:36 * Sgeo wikistalks pikhq 20:55:20 It's like Wikipedia never considered that some people have high-latency Internet. 20:56:36 pikhq, why do you use Satellite? 20:56:56 Sgeo: The alternatives are worse. 20:57:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:57:15 * Sgeo would die with high-latency Internet 20:57:33 Would you prefer a modem? 20:57:35 1translate Kesyyntymisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut hyötyä varoittavana vahtina sekä jätteensyöjänä. 20:57:41 Because that's the alternative. 20:57:45 What's wrong with modems...? 20:57:47 `translate Kesyyntymisen alkuaikoina koirasta on ollut hyötyä varoittavana vahtina sekä jätteensyöjänä. 20:57:53 The early days of domestication, dogs have been useful as well as a warning vahtina jätteensyöjänä. 20:58:09 vahtina == as a guard 20:58:16 -!- Oranjer has joined. 20:58:17 jätteensyöjänä == as a garbage eater 20:58:23 Close enough otherwise. 20:58:28 pikhq, how fast modem? 20:58:32 * uorygl nods. 20:58:40 AnMaster: 30k, normally. 20:58:45 pikhq, not 56k? 20:58:48 Phantom_Hoover: Web designers are assholes. 20:58:50 pikhq: do you live in a rural place, then? 20:58:53 AnMaster: Too much line noise. 20:58:55 uorygl: Yes. 20:59:04 pikhq, anyway, way faster than what I had in 1996 or so. which was ~28k 20:59:17 Yes. In '96 people didnt' 20:59:24 didn't make megabyte-sized pages. 20:59:39 hah 20:59:46 pikhq, megabyte? that is small ;P 20:59:57 (though more would be annoying over internet) 21:00:05 Yeah. 21:00:06 Feel free to run an Ethernet cable to my house and leech. 21:00:31 Man, logging into Wikipedia *really* makes Wikipedia go faster. 21:00:40 Fucking AJAX. 21:00:59 what does cf. stand for in English exactly? I know how it is used but not what the letters stand for 21:01:03 Hmm, now I want to go to a rural area and figure out a way to get good Internet. 21:01:04 Even Google's AJAX stuff isn't as bad. At least their Javascript gets *cached*. 21:01:06 No idea. 21:01:08 confer 21:01:08 confer? 21:01:19 as in "see also" or "compare" 21:01:23 it means "compare", but I don't know what it stands for either 21:01:23 a reference 21:01:27 ais523, ah 21:01:32 Deewiant, is that a real word? 21:01:39 Yes 21:01:41 Looks like "confer" is a Latin word meaning "compare". 21:01:43 * Phantom_Hoover needs to watch Ashes To Ashes. 21:01:45 And also an English word meaning something else. 21:01:46 In that meaning, it's archaic, though 21:01:51 uorygl: Murder the phone company execs who *pocketed* the money that was given to them in order to let them offer good Internet in rural areas. 21:01:56 looking it up, it does stand for "confer", which is Latin for "compare" 21:02:03 "Definitions of confer on the Web: 21:02:03 * have a conference in order to talk something over; "We conferred about a plan of action" 21:02:03 * present; "The university conferred a degree on its most famous former student, who never graduated"; "bestow an honor on someone" 21:02:03 wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn" 21:02:03 rather than the English "confer" which means something quite different 21:02:07 It means compare in English as well, just hasn't been used with that meaning for some hundreds of years 21:02:07 something fails there 21:02:22 ais523, ah 21:02:36 pikhq: well, how will that help? :P 21:02:41 WE GAVE THEM 200 FUCKING BILLION DOLLARS IN ORDER TO GET FIBER ALMOST EVERYWHERE IN THE 90S. AND DAMMIT I WANT MY 100 MEGABIT INTERNET. 21:02:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]). 21:02:52 pikhq: You're the "almost". 21:02:59 the English word "confer" tends to be mostly used in quiz shows, talking about whether contestants are allowed to talk to team-mates before answering 21:03:10 ais523, heh 21:03:10 Deewiant: No, I'm the "few hundred feet too far to get DSL". 21:03:22 Yes, that's "almost". 21:03:35 As in, "almost everybody can get DSL". 21:03:47 Yeah, that's not what we paid for. 21:04:01 We paid for Japan's infrastructure and got this piece of crap. 21:04:14 Is there another person within a few hundred feet of you who has DSL who you could get some Internet from? 21:04:19 wait? paid for japan? 21:04:24 pikhq, what do you mean? 21:04:34 AnMaster: Equivalent to Japan's current infrastructure. 21:04:40 ah 21:04:45 japan is smaller 21:04:46 than US 21:04:56 Yes. 21:04:56 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:05:21 If you'll note, $200 billion is a ton of money. 21:05:43 `calc 200 billion USD / 1 ton 21:05:45 (200 billion U.S. dollars) / (1 short ton) = 220 462 262 U.S. Dollars / kg 21:06:02 So, how do we know that the phone company guys simply pocketed the money? 21:06:15 `calc 1 ton / 200 billion USD 21:06:17 (1 short ton) / (200 billion U.S. dollars) = 4.5359237 10^-9 kg / U.S. Dollar 21:06:35 pikhq: i _say_ you're overestimating a bit 21:06:50 oerjan: Hahah. 21:07:08 uorygl: Because they say as much. 21:07:50 They have nearly zero competition here. And nearly zero incentive to improve anything. 21:08:03 pikhq: so where do they say that? 21:09:45 `convert 1 ton to USD 21:09:46 No output. 21:09:53 `run type convert 21:09:54 No output. 21:09:57 ?? 21:09:58 hm wait that's underestimating 21:10:01 `run which convert 21:10:02 No output. 21:10:09 okay that is weird 21:10:21 AnMaster: there is no command called convert. 21:10:31 uorygl, it would give an error 21:10:37 `lasdhgopaehfoieesjf 21:10:38 `run type convert 2>&1 21:10:38 No output. 21:10:39 /bin/bash: line 1: type: convert: not found 21:10:41 aha 21:10:50 so stderr went into void 21:10:58 Yep, that's what it does. 21:11:16 it bit the bucket 21:11:43 wait a minute 21:11:48 That's a rather excellent pun. 21:12:04 alas it's also mixing metaphors 21:12:19 Not only is it a cross between "bit the dust" and "kicked the bucket", but it also refers to the "bit bucket", a place where information goes to die. 21:12:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:13:54 heh 21:14:25 uorygl, but it didn't bucket the bits :( 21:14:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 21:19:10 So, we can all agree that C is practically Turing-complete. Is it still practically Turing-complete without malloc? 21:19:26 No, C is not Turing-complete. 21:19:32 I said "practically". 21:19:56 No. It still has finite memory and is thus not Turing-complete. 21:20:01 I said "practically". 21:20:14 well then just use a large global array :) 21:20:22 It's about as stupid as saying "the reals are practically computable". 21:20:31 oerjan: yeah, I guess that works. 21:20:35 But anyways. malloc can be written in pure C. 21:20:39 Just need a very large array. 21:20:48 How? 21:20:59 Oh. Right. 21:21:04 You have a very large array. 21:21:12 You use this as the heap for your malloc implementation. 21:21:14 Bam. 21:21:16 * uorygl nods. 21:21:42 What if you didn't have arrays? 21:21:53 Or if they were limited in size. 21:22:04 *Then* you're reduced to using the stack for allocation. 21:22:56 (this is necessarily finite, but only about as much as the rest of memory in C. Most implementations limit it further.) 21:25:55 -!- coppro has joined. 21:30:39 Does having to use the stack for allocation really interfere with flow control? 21:30:53 Er, control flow? 21:31:11 well to allocate more memory you need to do a call that never returns... 21:31:39 which means essentially using continuation passing style afaict 21:31:49 Pretty much. 21:31:50 Yeah. And how difficult is CPS in C? 21:32:02 Actually, not that hard. 21:32:26 Tedious, but not hard. 21:32:45 As you have function pointers, and can manually pass the environment around. 21:35:11 How do you use a function pointer? 21:35:26 Just dereference it? 21:35:32 Just call it. 21:36:22 Let's say you have a void (*foo)(void). To call foo, you just do: foo(); 21:36:34 * uorygl nods. 21:43:15 from man pts(4): "Pseudo-terminals can also be used to send input to programs that normally refuse to read input from pipes (such as su(1), and passwd(1))." 21:43:24 well, why, if it is so easy to work around 21:43:32 I mean, what is the point of them refusing pipes 21:45:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:45:59 another wtf: "The behavior of grantpt() is unspecified if a signal handler is installed to catch SIGCHLD signals." 21:46:54 Well, for su(1), it's clear enough. 21:47:02 uorygl, oh? 21:47:19 Probably to make it impossible for the password to be echoed? 21:47:38 pikhq, ah that could be 21:48:06 -!- augur has joined. 21:48:12 If I do foo | su -c bar | baz, I want foo's output to go to bar, not be interpreted as a password. 21:48:23 AnMaster, that sounds useful for Normish.. if Normish weren't dying 21:48:29 Also true. 21:48:29 Sgeo, ? 21:48:33 Sgeo: what does? 21:48:34 presumably it's for avoiding stupid mistakes, rather than deliberate attempts to manipulate it 21:48:47 The pseudo-terminal to send input to passwd 21:48:55 So we could have a working addplayer 21:48:59 * uorygl nods. 21:49:13 doesn't adduser have an option to set the password at random and send it somewhere? 21:49:14 uorygl, please save Normish kthx 21:49:19 or am I thinking of the GUI version? 21:49:38 ais523, some adduser/useradd have that 21:50:02 it is funny how I have both adduser and useradd on my system 21:50:16 different programs 21:50:19 different options 21:50:53 adduser is the friendly one, useradd is the unfriendly one. 21:50:55 hm 21:51:00 adduser is the P one, useradd is the V one. :P 21:51:01 adduser is a bash script here 21:51:07 uorygl, P? V? 21:51:32 well it is a bash script on arch and a perl script on ubuntu 21:51:56 useradd is an ELF on both 21:53:03 P refers to things that are designed to be easy to use. V refers to things that are designed to be easy to implement. 21:53:22 Examples of P programming languages are Python, Perl, and PHP. Examples of V programming languages are Verilog and VHDL. 21:53:41 heh 21:53:47 uorygl, what about C++? It is neither 21:53:54 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 21:54:21 Verilog? 21:54:23 uorygl, also I doubt implementing VHDL or Verilog synthesis is easy at all 21:54:30 Sgeo, a HDL 21:54:36 I know very little about C++. 21:54:36 Oh 21:54:57 uorygl, well I know only a tiny bit and it is more than I want to know 21:55:17 Verilog is like VHDL, except that the language itself is designed well, rather than simply tolerating good design. :P 21:55:28 uorygl: Take C++. Add poorly-implemented features. 21:55:32 Erm. Sorry. 21:55:36 You start with C. 21:55:41 pikhq: no, that's SystemC 21:55:45 You then go into a loop with that body. 21:55:59 which is orders of magnitude stupider than either Verilog or VHDL 21:56:25 uorygl: C++ has a Turing-complete type system and the C preprocessor for metaprogramming options. 21:56:49 uorygl, hehe 21:57:15 one thing that annoys me about VHDL is it doesn't allow recursion in the preprocessor 21:57:19 pikhq, hm? do you mean the templates? 21:57:25 I guess they are part of the type system 21:57:26 at least, the syntax allows it, but every simulator I know crashes when you try 21:57:27 Because of this type system, C++ parsing is undecidable. 21:57:28 AnMaster: Yes. 21:57:54 It's easy to hate C++ if you want to! 21:57:56 however, it /is/ expressive enough that you can simulate bounded recursion by using a bunch of polynomials in the preprocessor, which is arguably worse 21:58:00 uorygl: it's easy to hate it anyway 21:58:05 pikhq, but the templates act all preprocessorish, as in, things you would expect worked if it was in compiler instead of preprocessor doesn't work 21:58:06 That too. 21:58:10 I don't hate C++ because of an undecidable type system 21:58:14 but there are other reasons to dislike it 21:58:16 pikhq, like implementation outside header 21:58:17 and so on 21:58:18 :P 21:58:38 Wait, C++ types are Turing-complete? 21:58:41 That sounds like a feature 21:58:46 ais523, does VHDL have a preprocessor? 21:58:47 huh 21:58:50 Sgeo: *Unintentionally so*. 21:59:00 AnMaster: well, depending on your opinion, pretty much the entire language is a preprocessor 21:59:01 Example, please/ 21:59:04 but I'm thinking of for-generate loops 21:59:14 which I consider a preprocessor, based on what they actually do 21:59:17 Sgeo: template struct foo { ... }; 21:59:26 ais523, ah 21:59:32 This is equivalent to the following Haskell statement: foo t = ... 21:59:33 basically, for loops, except they're semantically unrolled rather than semantically being repetition 22:00:04 ais523, what would you use recursion for there? I haven't used it but I imagine it would be useful to make stuff like n-bit adders from full adders or such 22:00:15 combined with generics or such 22:00:17 mergesort 22:00:24 ah 22:00:26 pikhq, how do you do Factorials in C++ type system? 22:00:28 ais523, sorting network? 22:00:30 yep 22:00:32 it's scarily fast 22:00:36 O(log n) time, O(n) space 22:00:42 nice 22:01:17 template struct Factorial {enum { value = N * Factorial::value };};template <>struct Factorial<0>{enum { value = 0};};template<>struct Factorial<1>{enum {value = 1};}; 22:01:18 ais523, couldn't you make a perfect sorting network? I mean, just write a huge Karnaugh diagram for all possible inputs or something XD 22:01:33 oh yes, you can get O(1) time for sorting in hardware if you really really want to 22:01:39 Yes, the pattern matching works the opposite of what you'd expect. 22:01:40 but the space term is so horrible I don't want to imagine it 22:01:56 (and of course, it only works for an input of given size) 22:02:00 ais523, for something like 4 inputs it couldn't be too bad? 22:02:11 O(n(!)^n) 22:02:20 There, that should grow fast enough. 22:02:36 AnMaster: depends on how wide the inputs are 22:02:38 uorygl, size of that O(1) sort? 22:02:42 C++ metaprogramming should, IMO, be commented with the equivalent Haskell. 22:02:47 the other thing to mention is that there's no such thing as a hardware comparison sort 22:02:54 because you have to know the bounds of the data type to be able to implement them 22:02:56 ais523, well I meant 4 input bits split into equal sizes 22:02:59 AnMaster: an upper bound thereon. 22:03:01 probably two bits each 22:03:05 AnMaster: yes, that sorts rather trivially 22:03:13 uorygl, hm n(!)? 22:03:16 In this case: factorial 0 = 0;factorial 1 = 1;factorial n = n * factorial (n-1) 22:03:21 uorygl, that notation doesn't make sense to me 22:03:23 (!)^n means "factorial n times". 22:03:26 ah 22:03:28 okay 22:03:35 that is quite bad 22:03:44 So for 1, it's 1!; for 2, it's 2!! (to slightly abuse notation); for 3, it's 3!!!, and so on. 22:04:02 ais523, what are the gates you use in a sorting network btw, you need something clocked I assume? 22:04:15 yep, it was done synchronously 22:04:26 well not need as such, presumably you could do it async 22:04:30 and built out of serial 2-input sorters 22:04:52 ais523, hm? I don't think I'm familiar with that 22:04:58 Is Verilog FOSS? 22:05:01 well, they aren't a standard component 22:05:05 Sgeo: it's a programming language 22:05:10 you might as well say "is C FOSS"? 22:05:25 as for whether there are FOSS implementations, I'm not sure 22:05:37 I have one. 22:05:38 verilog have more FOSS implementations than VHDL 22:05:40 but it seems likely that there are no completely-FOSS Verilog/VHDL synthesizers 22:05:44 I looked around recently 22:05:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 22:05:51 that is for FPGA at least 22:06:15 Is there something that compiles Verilog into a circuit diagram? :P 22:06:29 A circuit diagram consisting only of transistors! 22:06:37 electric (EDA for ICs) supports some limited VHDL for generating substrate layout (or whatever it was called) 22:06:44 uorygl: the expensive synthesizers can synthesize for FPGA, then translate back into a circuit diagram 22:06:51 but I'm not entirely sure why you'd want to do that 22:06:52 not for generating schematics iirc 22:07:14 Hmm, we should compile Verilog into BBM instead. 22:07:20 ais523, for making a pretty pic to show those who pay you? 22:07:24 XD 22:07:42 The problem, of course, is that BBM is reversible. 22:07:43 uorygl, what is BBM? 22:07:51 The Billiard Ball Machine. 22:08:09 ah... 22:08:09 -!- ws has joined. 22:08:11 Computing via steel balls hitting blocks and each other. 22:08:23 hey 22:08:29 I wonder if you could design reversible circuits in VHDL 22:08:38 ws, hello 22:08:53 Sure you can. Just make your circuit reversible, and it'll be reversible. 22:09:02 btw did I mention what I planned to do this summer? 22:09:13 write a befunge-93 interpreter in vhdl (or verilog) 22:09:24 (but since I took a VHDL course at uni it will probably be that) 22:09:31 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:09:39 since I don't have any FPGA it will likely be ghdl-tested only 22:10:04 Build your circuit out of Toffoli gates. 22:10:32 uorygl, exactly, can you do that in VHDL, after all it is rather high level often. And I doubt many FPGAs have such gates 22:10:52 Sure, a Toffoli gate can easily be described in VHDL. 22:11:31 -!- mre has joined. 22:11:50 uorygl, well okay, but will it be synthesised into one. Rather than a combination of other gates 22:12:30 I think FPGAs never synthesise any gates at all into themselves. 22:12:34 -!- maedhros777 has joined. 22:13:09 Instead, they use lookup tables. 22:13:17 hiato: Sorry to bother you, but I was wondering how your method of increasing primes would work with complex zeroes. 22:14:15 uorygl, really? 22:14:45 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 22:14:49 Yeah. The Wikipedia article on FPGAs gives a pretend FPGA architecture; it's like a typical FPGA but simpler. 22:14:59 maedhros777: Why would there be complex zeroes? 22:15:05 Why not? 22:15:22 uorygl, hm. Seems wasteful. 22:15:39 uorygl, also what about latches and such 22:15:40 Each cell has four inputs, which go into a lookup table, producing one output, which may go through a flip-flop. 22:15:53 So, you get one lookup table and one flip-flip. 22:15:57 uorygl, what about a latch then? rather than a flip-flop 22:16:16 Depends on what the difference between a latch and a flip-flop is. 22:16:26 uorygl, latch would be async afaik 22:16:53 I guess you could construct that easily. Feed its output back into it as an input, and also have the two other inputs. 22:17:00 Or however many. 22:17:02 And boom, latch. 22:17:08 uorygl, that is still clocked 22:17:28 Not necessarily, is it? 22:17:29 you can make a flip-flop out of a latch (iirc that is the normal way of doing it) but not the other way around 22:17:34 hm 22:17:40 you could built it out of gates though 22:17:52 Right, that's what I'm saying to do. 22:17:56 two nor with suitable feedback... 22:18:02 hiato, any idea how to encode with complex zeroes? 22:18:11 (would make an SR-latch) 22:18:21 (well so would two nand) 22:18:43 You can do that with a single LUT. 22:19:22 uorygl, hm? 22:19:31 You can make that SR-latch with a single LUT. 22:19:41 If it has one bit of state which is also its one bit of output. 22:19:50 uorygl, well probably if you only have one of the outputs 22:20:07 you need 3 inputs, set/reset/feedback 22:20:13 Right. 22:20:25 the classical SR-latch have both "normal" and "inverted" outputs though 22:21:13 Then you'll have to use a second LUT to provide that. 22:21:19 uorygl, well, because it is symmetric which one is which is arbitrary as long as you swap the inputs too 22:21:25 uorygl, or just an inverter 22:21:32 Ilari, would you have any ideas for complex zeroes? 22:21:34 oh wait that is a LUT too? 22:21:52 An FPGA doesn't let you use "just an inverter"; all you get is LUTs and flip-flops, more or less. 22:22:09 Anyway, how's this for a Toffoli gate? http://pastebin.com/HFZNVdc1 22:22:35 uorygl, verilog? 22:22:38 no clue 22:22:55 I don't know verilog, only VHDL (and only basic VHDL so far) 22:23:27 Well, it can't be very much different from VHDL. 22:23:43 well true, somewhat different syntax 22:23:52 they're basically the same lang with different syntax 22:24:04 they were originally rather different, but they each stole features from the other until they became basically identical 22:24:21 and they're still doing it; if something becomes standard in Verilog, it tends to go into the next version of the VHDL standard, and vice versa 22:24:30 Does anyone here know how complex zeroes can be encoded in a function so that their order is distinct? 22:24:52 maedhros777: what are we trying to do, here? 22:24:58 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Polynomial 22:25:06 I'm creating an esolang 22:25:33 Reals are encoded by increasing primes, but i'm not sure what to do about complex zeroes 22:25:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:25:46 The specification isn't really finished 22:26:06 A Polynomial program is of the form f(x) = 3x^2 + x + 7, where the polynomial begins with "f(x) = " 22:26:08 WUT? 22:26:21 soupdragon, shush. :P 22:26:25 That function doesn't do anything :) 22:26:25 reminds me a bit of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Formula 22:26:42 Oh, that looks interesting 22:26:50 different, but related 22:26:52 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 22:26:59 I was wondering about just editing it into the see also of your article 22:27:07 Feel free 22:27:13 uorygl, I think this would work for vhdl http://sprunge.us/YMcO 22:27:36 AnMaster: looks right. 22:27:45 Anyone have any ideas for complex zeroes? 22:27:51 maedhros777: I'm looking. 22:27:55 Ok 22:27:57 uorygl, that verilog looks like a process what with the "always" thingy? 22:28:00 hmm, that article needs categories while it's at it 22:28:05 Yep 22:28:08 maedhros777: what year did the language first become public? this one? 22:28:09 I'll do that 22:28:20 I'm making it now 22:28:20 uorygl, oh and can't you have multiple architectures in verilog? 22:28:20 AnMaster: I guess Verilog doesn't let you constantly execute something; "always" means "whenever", and "*" means "something changes". 22:28:29 So I guess 2010 :) 22:28:46 uorygl, well my VHDL was async I think? 22:29:07 AnMaster: I guess an "architecture" is what you call what Verilog calls modules. 22:29:23 maedhros777: Maybe use newton to try to find one (start from complex number), then when found, divide it out and do the same again until you get constant function... 22:29:24 uorygl, you can have multiple implementations of the same entity 22:29:34 uorygl, that is what the architecture means 22:29:42 uorygl, the entity is more like a module. 22:29:44 I think 22:29:50 AnMaster: oh, how does that work? 22:29:58 maedhros: There's a crapload of stuff on ordering multiple numbers in the logs from a few weeks ago. 22:30:03 Maybe you could use that? 22:30:08 Where? 22:30:15 uorygl, the entity defines the "outside" appearance. The architecture what is done 22:30:34 maedhros777: cats added, tweak at will 22:30:38 uorygl, iirc you can select which architecture to use, it defaults to one of them (forgot which, ask ais) 22:30:43 Ilari: What would I be trying to find from the complex number? 22:30:44 maedhros777: If all coefficients are real, you can divide complex roots in pairs and keep the function as real. 22:31:03 What do you mean? 22:31:10 uorygl, iirc part of the reason may be one is only possible to simulate and not to synthesise or such. 22:31:18 at least that is one reason I heard 22:31:22 Huh. 22:31:27 ais mentioned some other ones iirc 22:31:46 hmm, first time I've ever had an edit conflict on Esolang 22:31:49 cats actually added this time 22:32:02 uorygl, well, if you use console IO it probably makes a good test bench but not so good FPGA ;P 22:32:30 maedhros777: I find the "we might be tempted to deduce" slightly offensive. :P 22:32:39 Oh :) 22:32:47 uorygl, but yeah, ask ais523 about why you want multiple architectures 22:33:09 uorygl: basically, because of the hugely closed nature of most FPGA ecosystems 22:33:22 "I have a cat in this box. You might be tempted to deduce that this box contains a cat. But actually, by 'in', I meant 'on top of'!" 22:33:25 "better" architectures are more expensive than worse ones 22:33:38 ais523, and that XD 22:33:40 uorygl: =D 22:33:43 uorygl: heh, "in" and "on top of" are the same word in Latin 22:34:04 ais523, that sounds awkward 22:34:09 Hmm, and the Spanish word "en" means both as well. 22:34:17 You can normally tell from context. 22:34:18 maedhros777: Like x^3 - x^2 + x - 1 = 0. x = i is solution, so you can divide by (x - i)(x + i) = x^2 + 1 to get x - 1. 22:34:26 ais523, it isn't hard to imagine situations were it would be unclear which is meant and doing it wrong would be rather irritating 22:34:52 Ilari: Why would you divide, though? Because some language statements involve complex zeroes 22:35:07 AnMaster: there's a reason why the ancient Romans normally used Greek for discussions about science 22:35:21 ais523, XD 22:35:26 maedhros777: you can still divide complex zeros out. 22:35:33 maedhros777: Ensures that root finding won't find that root again. 22:35:44 Unless, of course, it was a double root. 22:35:55 maedhros777: And you also see if there are higher-order roots. 22:36:06 But how will you know which order the complex zeroes are in? 22:36:13 Hmm, and the Spanish word "en" means both as well. <-- insert obvious joke with regards to Spanish economy 22:36:16 maedhros777: You can't. 22:36:28 (at least i hope it is obvious) 22:36:37 Do you have any suggestions, then? 22:36:44 I like the Newton's method idea. Start at 0, see which root you find; that's the first one you execute. 22:36:45 I was using increasing primes for reals 22:36:51 (the placed the money on top of the bank instead in it, see not strange they have financial problems!) 22:37:00 Hm..maybe I'll do that 22:37:01 see,* 22:37:29 But that limits programs from executing in different order 22:37:44 maedhros777: I notice that all the language does is start with a number and perform a series of operations on it. 22:37:49 Yep 22:37:50 maedhros777, do the roots have some well defined order at all? 22:37:54 I mean in math in general 22:38:02 (for polynomials) 22:38:04 I'm not sure what you mean. 22:38:06 Well, yeah. Esoteric programming languages limit you. :) 22:38:09 AnMaster: no, they don't. 22:38:15 uorygl, right 22:38:54 and you could order any roots anywhere, just do something like order numerically by real, then imaginary. Or write it down and use the ascii value 22:38:56 or whatever 22:39:08 Right. 22:39:12 What do you mean by the latter method? 22:39:54 maedhros777, "3+4.2i" == 51,43,52,46,50,105 22:40:07 at least that is what converting it in erlang told me 22:40:18 Why, though? 22:40:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:40:40 if you limit yourself to ASCII you can get a number from it that is 6 bytes 22:40:48 maedhros777, well you can sort by that 22:40:56 to get a well defined ordering of the numbers 22:40:57 Sort by ASCII values? 22:41:00 not a good method of course 22:41:06 maedhros777, it is possible 22:41:14 I didn't say it was useful 22:41:14 AnMaster: it's not really well-defined. 22:41:21 Suppose the real part is nonterminating. 22:41:34 It's all in integers 22:41:39 Well, I guess it's obvious enough how to fix that. 22:41:41 uorygl, bah, double isn't infinite precision ;P 22:41:58 All complex numbers are Gaussian in Polynomial 22:42:21 but sure, sorting numerically by real then imaginary is probably saner 22:42:32 What if you have a number with multiple decimal expansions? :P 22:42:38 Limiting...but I may have no other choice. 22:42:49 uorygl, "undefined behaviour" 22:43:00 (it is fun combining math with engineering) 22:43:04 Well-defined and undefined are mutually exclusive concepts. :) 22:43:07 (neither profession will like it) 22:43:24 maedhros777, what is it you are trying to accomplish though 22:43:34 Order of statements 22:43:43 Being as limitless as possible 22:43:56 maedhros777, so what is the language in question 22:43:57 Something similar to the ascending primes idea 22:44:05 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Polynomial 22:44:08 maedhros777, also just add a line number then. Like BASIC 22:44:08 maybe you could sort anti-clockwise? 22:44:16 then by distance from the origin? 22:44:23 Oh... 22:44:28 maedhros777: why not just write in a list of numbers? why go via polynomials 22:44:29 You mean in the complex plane? 22:44:49 soupdragon, this is #esoteric, that's why 22:44:54 soupdragon: Because polynomials are cool :) 22:44:55 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:45:32 ais523: interesting idea, maybe I'll do that 22:46:04 Because if I did it by order of a in a + bi, everything might be screwed up 22:46:10 maedhros777, why not in the order written in the program? 22:46:16 I really wish people would stop that 22:46:20 It's a polynomial 22:46:24 Here's my esoteric programming language: http://pastebin.com/cmLyEHJM 22:46:29 soupdragon, stop what? 22:47:22 uorygl, Newtons method is numerical? 22:47:26 AnMaster: yes 22:47:31 I think there may be more than one Newton's method 22:47:36 for different field of math 22:47:37 not sure 22:47:37 Newton's method is numerical, yes, but too bad. 22:47:46 I recall only one Newton's method. 22:47:46 uorygl, how many iterations then? 22:48:03 uorygl, the one I remember was related to differentiation? 22:48:16 Enough that you're absolutely certain of which root it's approaching. 22:48:17 don't remember details 22:48:24 Newton's method does involve differentiation, yes. 22:48:36 hm 22:54:15 Maybe I could use the ascending primes method with b in a + bi 22:54:53 b can't be too large because there are certain set possible values of b, so that might work 22:55:15 Only problem would be with i and 2i (output and input) 22:56:55 Any ideas for i and 2i (the special cases)? 22:57:15 maedhros777, can't b be any integer? 22:57:20 maedhros777: sorry, I don't know what you're trying to get across. 22:57:23 Yep 22:57:32 How does the ascending primes method even work with a + bi? 22:57:51 (2 - 3i) -> (2 - 2^3 * i) 22:57:57 etc. 22:58:20 Mm. 22:58:40 Good thing b can't be too big, though 22:58:46 So, i becomes 2^1 * i and 2i becomes 2^2 * i? 22:58:52 I don't see a problem there. 22:59:05 Oh, you're right 22:59:08 Silly me :) 22:59:14 Thanks for your help! 22:59:32 I'm off to change the wiki page for Polynomial now 22:59:35 -!- maedhros777 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:59:38 I must admit I prefer my language, though. :P 22:59:55 I've made an algorithm 23:00:08 programming language 23:00:09 the input is two numbers, the output is a binary sequence 23:00:20 based on which paths are taking in the GCD algorithm 23:00:50 the binary sequence is used to train (good/bad) an AI what to do 23:01:23 Exciting. 23:01:28 but the AI is only allowed to communicate to the outside world using pictures downloaded from the internet 23:01:39 (so that it can't trick you to let it out) 23:01:54 soupdragon: I don't see why that restriction would matter much 23:02:08 Couldn't it just download pictures of letters? 23:02:17 no 23:02:21 that's not allowd 23:02:26 How do you disallow it? 23:02:27 nothing that looks like a letter 23:02:32 it's an AI 23:02:36 it knows the difference 23:02:46 Yes, but how do you make it heed the difference? 23:03:08 If you can make it heed the difference between a letter and a non-letter, you might as well make it heed the difference between right and wrong. 23:03:24 uorygl, you use a monitor AI to do it XD 23:03:43 That could get exciting. :) 23:03:54 uorygl, an infinite series of AIs 23:03:58 err turtles I mean 23:04:06 Heh. 23:05:08 Well, the monitor AI wouldn't really be able to communicate with the monitored.. no, it could 23:05:17 If the monitored AI receives "accepted/rejected" 23:05:27 The monitored AI wouldn't have to receive those. 23:05:50 I changed my mind 23:05:54 It could just spit out lots of letters, blissfully unaware that they're being rejected. :) 23:05:55 good move 23:05:59 the binary sequence is LEFT/RIGHT commands for a turtle 23:06:01 Yay, mind-changing. 23:06:20 soupdragon, oh so now it can drive around in letter shapes 23:06:29 the turtle isn't an AI 23:06:38 but it can still communicate 23:06:41 lol 23:06:45 and also being stabbed by a turtle pen 23:06:47 ... :P 23:07:01 look those robots can be vicious. 23:07:02 Programming languages should not have output, because communication can be used to take over the world. :) 23:07:08 uorygl, :D 23:09:59 uorygl: There should be a single output for all computers. 23:10:06 A single flashing LED, in NORAD. 23:10:37 * Sgeo doesn't know if he should be excited or upset about tomorrow 23:10:56 ???? 23:10:59 You should probably be excited, since it's probably not a school-required thing. 23:11:04 Exciting: Major marriage in a webcomic (although there's now a cold feet issue). Upsetting: SG-1 will no longer be available 23:11:11 O_oo 23:11:15 O.o 23:11:59 pikhq, NORAD? 23:12:21 AnMaster: Air Force base. Underneath a mountain. 23:12:26 SG-1 available where? 23:12:28 Yeah, this is what my life is like. The most interesting.. dammit, Internet connection 23:12:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat). 23:12:30 Designed to survive a nuclear blast. 23:12:33 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:12:38 Yeah, this is what my life is like. The most interesting.. dammit, Internet connection 23:12:41 pikhq, a bit hard to take off what with the mountain on top? 23:12:42 ;P 23:13:12 Yeah, this is what my life is like. The most interesting.. dammit, Internet connection 23:13:19 you repeated that 23:13:24 Huh. 23:13:26 before and after you quit 23:13:28 I was lagging out 23:13:33 Sgeo, "* Sgeo has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)" 23:13:36 Didn't think it would be received 23:13:36 not lag 23:13:41 a proper QUIT 23:13:48 * Sgeo blinks 23:13:48 The thing about computers is that it's difficult to make them not output via heat and stuff. 23:14:01 Sgeo, could be temporary lag spike 23:14:05 Um, I disconnected and reconnected my router 23:14:08 Sgeo, you have to wait a bit to be sure 23:14:09 uorygl: We'll magine. 23:14:10 And did a /server 23:14:16 Manage, even. 23:14:19 Sgeo, see log (topic) 23:14:23 I did 23:14:41 * Sgeo does not fake connection issues, really! 23:14:51 AnMaster, hulu 23:15:13 Probably something like destroy them if their temperature fluctuates greater than some epsilon. 23:15:31 -!- augur has joined. 23:15:34 So they'll be able to determine whether they're destroyed or not. 23:15:38 Sgeo, hulu? 23:15:42 oh the tv thing 23:15:45 I once devised a scheme for ensuring that information doesn't escape something. 23:15:46 Sgeo, so download it all? 23:15:58 AnMaster, you mean, illegally? 23:16:00 uorygl: Yes, so they can send at most one bit. Ever. 23:16:11 On the contrary, they can do it at a symbolic time. 23:16:16 Sgeo, well that is up to you, just tcpdump everything, I guess that isn't legal either then 23:16:36 I don't think I have time 23:16:36 Yes, but it's still exactly one bit of output. 23:16:40 Nor space on this computer 23:16:48 pikhq, how would you ensure that? 23:16:50 If you can choose when it's output, that's not exactly one bit of output. 23:17:10 pikhq, couldn't it change the state later to construct a serial stream? 23:17:16 or would it have a one-off manual reset? 23:17:35 AnMaster: *Destroyed*. 23:17:41 pikhq, the computer? 23:17:42 Anyway. First, put the thing inside a case it cannot escape from. Then, submerge it in a tank filled with hot saltwater, with metal filings to keep it from floating to the top or sinking to the bottom. 23:17:46 Yes. 23:17:49 pikhq, ah I see 23:18:13 Sgeo, *shrug* 23:18:26 uorygl: Okay, fine. We use a time machine. We erase the computer from existence if its temperature fluctuates. 23:18:42 Is it practical to get effectively free data storage by sticking lots of cheap, low-ish capacity (1-2G) flash drives together in a RAID? 23:18:52 pikhq, but then you will probably kill yourself before you could go back and do so! 23:19:07 Have a pipe at the bottom that sucks out the filings, making them into an inverted cone shape, so that the thing doesn't float to the sides. Have the filings detonated alongside a nuclear bomb. 23:19:16 Phantom_Hoover: how would that be effectively free? 23:19:35 yeah what uorygl said, plus you need card read, lots of them 23:19:35 Flash drives cost money. 23:19:41 or alternatively, usb ports 23:19:41 I have *tonnes* of flash drives lying around my house. 23:19:53 uorygl, they are handed out for free at conventions and such iirc 23:19:55 *shrug* 23:20:13 I have some old I got from people who got them at conferences and such and didn't want them 23:20:21 Ah, neat. 23:20:32 USB ports may be an issue, but they are very cheap and I have a few already. 23:20:43 uorygl, well 256 MB and 1 GB are the ones I can find atm 23:20:49 and they are slow 23:21:07 (I have them because my parents are doctors and drug companies are allowed to bribe them) 23:21:36 well, here they aren't allowed to bribe I think 23:21:41 I should become a doctor so that I get free flash drives. :P 23:21:43 but it probably still happens 23:22:06 I think there's a cap of ~£5. 23:22:19 So in the Information Age, flash drives are common. 23:22:35 heck some of the ones I have are also medical related (guy who I got them from works in neuroscience or such... academic, not doctor) 23:22:45 one says something about ADHD research on it 23:23:10 it's 1 GB 23:24:27 ais523, how do you create local variables in VHDL? 23:24:33 ais523, internal signals? 23:24:39 I can't remember, but it's possible 23:24:41 Let's see, you can get a terabyte SSD for about $3,000... 23:24:43 that's not really very helpful... 23:24:50 (and both local variables and local signals are possible) 23:24:52 ais523, what? internal signals? 23:24:58 ais523, I know about local signals 23:25:14 ais523, how exactly do vars and signals differ 23:25:18 Since when is 1GB small? I remember when I was younger, learning about Gigabytes and thinking that that's a LOT 23:25:37 You can also get a plain old regular terabyte hard drive for $100. :P 23:25:39 uorygl, that's expensive 23:25:51 well 23:25:52 I can still remember when the drives were 64M. 23:25:53 the SSD I meant 23:26:03 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:26:03 hm 23:27:13 That's stupid. You can buy an encrypted 4 TB hard drive for about $1,500. 23:27:24 How difficult would it to put a 1TB drive in a laptop? 23:27:39 Whereas doing the same with software would be just as effective and way cheaper. 23:28:33 uorygl, buy an encrypted? 23:28:34 what the heck 23:28:37 are you talking about 23:28:56 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822158093 23:29:00 uorygl, like AES in hardware? 23:29:04 Yep. 23:29:05 could be somewhat faster 23:29:09 -!- augur has joined. 23:29:16 True. 23:29:23 uorygl, but where do you enter passphrase? 23:29:28 I don't know. 23:29:34 What's the leading symmetric key cipher? Twofish? 23:29:36 It probably comes with software. 23:30:20 uorygl, don't know. AES isn't too bad 23:30:37 I think symmetric key ciphers are pretty easy to implement in hardware. I don't know, though. 23:31:10 Of course, using an ordinary processor instead of a cryptoprocessor is not necessarily a good idea. 23:31:33 uorygl, hm? 23:31:39 uorygl, side channel? 23:31:42 Right. 23:32:13 uorygl, a crypto cpu does add some interesting aspects to the design... 23:32:32 you couldn't make it async since that would mean widely varying power usage 23:32:45 still, widely varying for sync probably 23:34:35 If someone can analyse your CPU's power usage, you're doing something wrong in the first place. 23:35:49 side channel? 23:36:44 side channel attack 23:36:53 try google or wikipedia 23:37:16 Sgeo: side-channel attacks are where you attack the implementation of an algo rather than the algo itself 23:37:21 Phantom_Hoover, on the other hand you don't want to use more power than required at any point, especially in a laptop 23:37:29 like shining a really bright light into a quantum crypto link to try to make it leak extra photons 23:37:40 ais523, that works? 23:38:02 on some versions of it, yes 23:38:12 the point is it has nothing to do with the algo at all, it's something they didn't think of 23:38:23 ais523, yes but how would it work? 23:38:40 shouldn't it just drown out the single photon? 23:38:49 well, the things use filters to produce photons in the first place, you're trying to guess their settings 23:38:55 so instead of one photon, you get, say, 20 all the same 23:39:02 then you can measure 19 of them and let the other one go through the link 23:39:08 mhm 23:39:09 and have a pretty good idea what polarisation that 19 had 23:39:21 ais523, you need to modify the sender equipment then 23:39:30 no? 23:39:33 to stop that happening? 23:39:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:39:43 No, to do it. 23:39:53 ais523, to be able to send more than one such photon? 23:39:56 except you don't, you cut the cable and aim a blast of light down it back at the sender 23:40:02 aha 23:40:04 and some of the photons bounce off the sender and come back 23:40:11 going through the filter in the process 23:40:12 right that makes sense 23:40:18 ais523, how do you prevent it? 23:40:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:40:45 I have no idea, I'm not a quantum cryptographer 23:40:51 ah 23:40:54 one obvious method is to detect the blast and guess you've been tampered with 23:41:00 true 23:41:39 ais523, but would that be viable? Quantum + detecting/measuring tends to non-weird results ;P 23:41:41 that's not the only side-channel attack, of course 23:41:53 AnMaster: you aren't detecting anything you send at all 23:41:55 just things you receive 23:41:57 hm 23:42:04 you can therefore use conventional means to help secure the quantum system 23:42:42 ais523, what are the other side channel attacks apart from compromising the sending/receiving computer(s) 23:43:11 I don't know 23:43:15 ah 23:43:38 there's also the possibility of MitMing the entire communication 23:43:56 as in, setting up a separate quantum link to each of the participating people 23:44:08 but there are known ways to solve that sort of problem (again, I don't know what they are) 23:44:31 -!- tombom__ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:44:49 hm 23:45:28 Calculate the amount of time taken for light to go from point A to point B. If it takes longer, there's tampering. :P 23:45:43 nice 23:45:43 Of course, it requires your connection to be a straight line! 23:45:57 strangely, at the conference I was at recently, there was an entire paper about just that method of securing communication 23:46:01 uorygl, or not, you can calculate for a bent path, no? 23:46:44 Only if the attacker can't unbend the path. 23:47:01 uorygl, well okay, but I was thinking "transatlantic cable" kind of thing 23:47:04 uorygl, also: wormholes 23:47:13 he can shorten the path as needed ;P 23:47:19 I don't think wormholes are something we need to worry about for the time being. :P 23:49:10 uorygl, also time machine to send the bits back in time 23:49:31 Likewise. 23:50:02 night