00:00:06 I like-a the threaded code-a. 00:00:13 mhm 00:00:15 night 00:00:25 Even though it's only slightly more efficient than a good interpreter. :P 00:03:58 Ugh, I can't figure out integer division. 00:11:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:11:36 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:12:09 -!- augur has joined. 00:13:54 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:15:15 -!- uorygl has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:19:01 -!- coppro has joined. 00:19:29 -!- Zuu has joined. 00:19:30 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 00:19:30 -!- Zuu has joined. 00:22:25 -!- uorygl has joined. 00:26:40 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 01:00:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 01:02:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:04:54 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:24:22 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 01:24:23 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Changing host). 01:24:24 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 01:25:43 -!- ws has joined. 01:42:02 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 02:14:43 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: computer is broken). 02:19:03 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...). 02:21:32 -!- coppro has joined. 02:37:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:37:20 -!- augur has joined. 02:57:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:58:01 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:59:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:00:20 -!- augur has joined. 03:01:13 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:04:01 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 03:05:25 -!- Gregor-L has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:07:18 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 03:09:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:14:02 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:14:32 -!- lament has joined. 03:22:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 03:22:26 -!- Gregor-L has joined. 03:23:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:26:44 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor. 03:29:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:29:55 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:39:39 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:40:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:04:50 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:08:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:08:27 -!- augur has joined. 04:12:50 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:21:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:30:44 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:31:10 -!- augur has joined. 04:31:28 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:31:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:38:53 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:39:06 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 04:42:11 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:44:07 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:44:37 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 04:46:25 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:48:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:49:02 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:52:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:00:10 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:02:21 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:11:08 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:11:21 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 05:12:40 I still don't understand AnMaster's goal, just to have a "freehosting" (?) GCC/G++ for his whatever-oddball-processor? 05:13:05 there's bound to be other compilers besides GCC for it 05:13:23 heck, AnMaster knows some assembly, so screw the compilers, just use that, might be easier anyways :-P 05:13:33 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:19:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 05:19:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:20:00 hey, I thought the Lego stuff supported Forth? 05:20:03 just use that :-P 05:22:40 http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=25272 05:26:01 http://packages.debian.org/en/sid/binutils-h8300-hms 05:27:58 http://packages.debian.org/lenny/gcc-h8300-hms 05:28:48 and just to hammer the obvious home (though not sure if it makes it easier or not), MinGW, Cygwin, and DJGPP all use (some variant of) COFF 05:29:07 okay, laptop battery low, chat with ya later ;-) 05:29:09 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)). 05:55:09 hey, I thought the Lego stuff supported Forth? <-- pbForth? 05:55:11 well maybe 05:55:13 but nah 05:55:16 I prefer C for it 05:55:36 also I don't wish to learn H8/300 asm 05:55:54 it looks rather annoying 05:59:14 anyway I needed newlib to be able to compile g++ 05:59:20 not that newlib is actually used then 05:59:43 just needed for it to be able to compile 06:08:26 bbl university 06:19:17 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 06:30:30 -!- tombom has joined. 06:44:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:48:57 -!- augur has joined. 06:55:38 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 07:00:20 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:15:34 -!- augur has joined. 07:42:10 Night all 07:44:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:48:08 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:58:06 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:41 -!- andares has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:55:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:57:39 Wow, it looks like someone has finally built a self-replicator in Life. 09:03:18 And I now have profound respect for the inventor of the hashlife algorithm. 09:05:23 link? 09:07:10 http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399 09:08:31 It's configured as a spaceship. 09:09:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:14:37 Hence it it disassembles its parent after being activated. 09:15:33 It's a lot prettier than the von Neumann replicators, though HighLife still wins that contest. 09:43:09 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:02:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:08:16 -!- sdorand2_ has joined. 11:12:53 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 11:36:56 Has anyone else noticed that the shape of orbits is flowery when gravity is proportional to x^-1? 11:37:20 probably 11:37:32 that's how it would probably work in 2d, after all 11:38:01 Yes. 11:38:44 (that's not a personal "yes", btw :D) 11:39:42 What? 11:40:11 *i haven't noticed personally, no 12:06:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:07:22 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:39:58 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:58:25 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:21:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:22:23 I have come to the conclusion that mathematics is a conspiracy. 15:25:10 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:30:11 -!- sdorand2 has joined. 15:32:26 -!- sdorand2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:36:20 -!- hiato has joined. 15:38:21 -!- Gregor has joined. 16:06:00 Phantom_Hoover, wrt. http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=399 : also a space ships that alters direction every now and then 16:06:41 without any reflectors or such 16:06:49 Or a spaceship that goes in a circle! 16:07:36 Phantom_Hoover, (regular) polygon or something? 16:07:37 I mean 16:07:43 you can't get a circle with just integers 16:07:46 Yes. 16:07:51 Be pedantic, then. 16:07:57 thanks :) 16:08:01 A path that self-connects. 16:08:21 ARE YOU SATISFIED, GEOMETRY FASCIST? 16:09:35 Phantom_Hoover, challenge: write a GOL interpreter in GOL. And not the trivial "eval"-style one 16:09:43 Been done. 16:09:47 Three ways. 16:10:03 heh 16:10:07 One of them simulating an infinite number of separate universes. 16:10:08 bbl food 16:10:38 Hashlife in life, now *that* would be interesting. 16:16:30 back 16:16:40 Phantom_Hoover, hah and I doubt it would be the most efficient in life 16:17:01 Evidently you eat with some sort of tube. 16:17:02 why? it is an "architecture" that is completely different from "normal" computers 16:17:12 Indeed. 16:17:13 Phantom_Hoover, eh? 16:17:24 You did not take long with the food. Forget it. 16:17:53 Actually, making a computer that directly simulated Life on the hardware level probably wouldn't be as fast as using Golly. 16:18:05 Phantom_Hoover, oh just an... hm what is the English word 16:18:08 omelett in Swedish 16:18:21 That is "omelette" in English. 16:18:25 heh 16:18:40 We kept the 'e' because we are decadent and capitalist. 16:19:55 nice non-seqiture (spelling?) 16:20:18 No, we didn't keep the 'e' on everything. 16:20:31 Phantom_Hoover, :P 16:21:28 I just read someone saying that we travel at lightspeed down the time timension. 16:21:38 s/timension/dimension/ 16:21:59 It makes no sense 16:22:51 that would imply we can't travel to the future (we can't go faster) but we could slow down and even reverse... But then we could never catch up with the "present" again or something 16:22:59 but yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense 16:23:48 It doesn't make *any* sense. 16:24:01 Time is the independent variable for speed. 16:24:31 So travelling along the time dimension means your speed is dt/dt, which makes no sense. 16:25:58 Phantom_Hoover, we should get space dilation :P 16:26:16 My brain hurts now. 16:26:43 a job well done then ;P 16:27:08 So it would be dt/ds 16:29:51 wonderful 16:33:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:37:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:45:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:58:19 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:02:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:05:01 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 17:37:50 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:51:35 -!- tombom has joined. 17:59:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:15:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:16:55 -!- cheater2 has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:27:01 Is Sierpinski-pattern growth in any way mathematically interesting? 18:33:17 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 18:40:21 Phantom_Hoover, ? 18:41:25 The replicator in HighLife and the straight line in cylindrical Life both have a growth pattern tied into the Sierpinski gasket. 18:44:06 -!- cheater2 has joined. 18:45:28 -!- cheater2 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 18:47:25 * pikhq can has obnoxiously swift Brainfuck compilation with hardly any optimisations being done 18:55:37 -!- cheater2 has joined. 18:59:20 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 19:06:07 -!- ws_ has joined. 19:11:57 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:13:39 -!- Zuu has joined. 19:16:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:16:44 oerjan! 19:16:53 Phantom_Hoover! 19:17:08 oerjan! 19:17:18 Phantom_Hoover!!!!!!!!1111eleven 19:17:48 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:18:10 I have come to the conclusion that mathematics is a conspiracy. 19:18:33 you know too much. expect your numbers to start not adding up in the future. 19:18:33 I was waiting for that previous exchange to escalate to interrobangs. 19:18:35 Stuff turns up in too many places! 19:18:53 fizzie: i'm still not unicode-clean you know 19:19:08 You should take an unicode-shower. 19:19:19 eek 19:19:41 It involves taking a bucketful of BMP characters and dumping them all over you. 19:20:03 you can't get a circle with just integers 19:20:16 i think you are not aware of pythagorean numbers, then 19:20:34 (You'll keep finding CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPHs in your hair for weeks.) 19:20:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:21:07 oerjan, well it won't be a perfect *continuous* circle, right? 19:21:11 which is what I meant 19:21:20 *triple 19:21:55 AnMaster: well a continuous circle is uncountable, so... 19:22:04 fizzie, what is a "CJK COMPATIBILITY IDEOGRAPH"? 19:22:05 *triples 19:22:15 oerjan, exactly my point! 19:22:59 oerjan, now, does that ever exist outside pure math? as in real world. Drawn circles and so on 19:23:45 we have no way of measuring finely enough to find out 19:23:51 oerjan, on an atom-scale it seems doubtful 19:24:16 "Chrome Web Store provides developers a window to over 70 million people, according to Google. It’s available in Chrome and Chrome OS and will be available in the Chrome Dev Center soon." 19:24:28 And putting things on the web: Available to everyone! 19:24:45 Seriously, this is.. disconcerting 19:25:06 as long as they don't do vendor lockin 19:25:47 AnMaster: It 19:26:02 's a Unicode supplement block. 19:26:07 pikhq, used for what? 19:26:18 CJK compatibility, duh. 19:26:55 Deewiant, yeah and what does that mean 19:27:11 CJK means Chinese/Japanese/Korean 19:27:14 ah 19:27:24 Deewiant, so the compat stuff? 19:28:32 I'd guess it's compatibility for legacy character sets but I don't know 19:28:43 My guess is it's so that you can have a lossless translation from some legacy character sets to Unicode and back again. 19:28:51 fizzie, ah makes sense 19:28:54 kind of 19:28:56 At least that's the justification for some other compatibility bits. 19:29:04 Yep, that's what I was guessing also 19:29:22 the lossless bit is the key to having it make sense 19:29:29 "Compatibility Character. A character that would not have been encoded except for compatibility and round-trip convertibility with other standards." 19:29:51 Well yes, I thought losslessness was obvious :-P 19:30:04 meh I didn't consider it might be an issue 19:30:14 after all it isn't for western languages really 19:30:52 so I'm still somewhat mystified why not just encoding it as the "non-compat" entry for the same char... 19:30:57 as to why not* 19:31:03 encode* 19:33:29 AnMaster: perhaps the original character set had different forms for variations of the same character 19:33:34 I have a new computing project 19:33:44 but have yet to figure out some parts here and there 19:33:50 AnMaster: 19:34:03 basically, it's decomposing a computing problem into a set of, say, puzzle flash games or something like this 19:34:06 Not beinf for a "western language" does not remove the need for round-trip convertibility. 19:34:16 oerjan, hm 19:34:23 so that users, not being aware of it, would be actually calculating something 19:34:29 pikhq, that isn't what I said 19:34:31 call it human-puting... MWAHAHAHAHA 19:34:36 AnMaster: i recall a discussion with someone who said that even distinguishing upper and lower case is really a compatibility feature for Unicode (it doesn't make sense in many charsets _other_ than western) 19:34:42 pikhq, but a "western language" does not seem to have many issues with it 19:35:01 at least that I found 19:35:15 *western ones 19:35:24 AnMaster: You say this because you use a Latin script. 19:35:38 pikhq, yes, so tell me why it is an issue elsewhere 19:35:41 Which really does not have encoding issues at *all*. 19:35:51 oerjan, I fail to see why unicode would do that for latin charset 19:36:11 Makes about as much sense as Han unification. 19:36:29 pikhq, what does? And what is that Han unification? 19:36:33 AnMaster: um do what? distinguishing or not distinguishing? 19:36:43 Merging upper and lower case. 19:36:52 oerjan, the former. It shouldn't do the former. 19:37:24 AnMaster: Han unification is the process whereby the glyphs for pretty much all CJK characters were merged into codepoints based on abstract meaning, regardless of (sometimes quite major) glyph variations. 19:37:28 pikhq, sure ASCII converts fine for most stuff. But ISO-whatever-forgot-the-number for example does as well 19:37:30 and so on 19:37:53 It's mostly that they want a one-to-one mapping for existing systems, so they'll have to include characters that would "naturally" be represented some other way in Unicode. There's at least some "presentation variations" for Arabic that "should" be expressed using some rendering-state-changing characters, but legacy encodings have unique characters for those. 19:37:55 pikhq, there is no EBCDIC compat block is there? 19:38:11 pikhq, I see.. so now it is up to the font? 19:38:21 Yes. 19:38:34 Which makes it a royal bitch to have plain text with both Chinese and Japanese in it. 19:38:58 They stopped *just* short of merging Simplified and Traditional Chinese. 19:39:11 pikhq, they merged Chinese and Japanese!? 19:39:25 pikhq, why not make case for Latin scripts up to the font as well? *shudder* 19:39:35 it makes as much sense (none) 19:39:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:39:43 Chinese, Japanese and Korean. 19:39:45 AnMaster: Yes, each language has its own glyph variants of Han characters. 19:39:59 fizzie: And Vietnamese's old orthography! 19:40:03 right 19:40:04 (Chu nom) 19:40:26 so the things in question is about local differences within a language? 19:40:29 pikhq: if they merged simplified and traditional chinese, the PRC and/or ROC would probably have declared war ;D 19:40:30 this unification I mean 19:40:41 pikhq, ? 19:40:43 (on the Unicode consortium) 19:41:12 AnMaster: No, they merged nearly all glyph variants. 19:41:12 I guess the Chrome Web Store just makes finding cool web stuff easier 19:41:32 pikhq, even between the languages? You said they were separate above. 19:41:33 ... 19:41:52 No I didn't. I said each language posesses its own unique glyph variants for characters. 19:42:11 pikhq, so now there are Simplified and Traditional + the rest? or what? 19:43:06 Simplified characters have their own codepoints. Traditional Chinese as written in China, as written in Korea, as written in Japan, and as formerly written in Vietnam are using the same codepoints. 19:43:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification#Examples_of_language_dependent_characters 19:43:27 *Except* when a previous encoding had differentiated them. 19:43:45 pikhq, " *Except* when a previous encoding had differentiated them." <-- ? 19:43:56 I.e. when the character is in a compatibility block. 19:44:03 ah 19:44:10 -!- augur has joined. 19:44:12 Characters, rather. 19:44:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:44:40 -!- augur has joined. 19:45:58 pikhq, they do look _very_ similar all over 19:46:12 err 19:46:12 Deewiant, ^ 19:46:39 there are like two variants of shape and a few variants that looks like font style (bolder, less bold, ...) 19:46:52 AnMaster: That's... Not quite right. 19:47:05 pikhq, I doubt I have a lot of fonts for those installed 19:47:12 That'd do it. 19:47:15 it isn't like I could read it anyway 19:47:37 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 19:47:43 I think I've got the same font for the three Chinese variants 19:48:02 I haven't bothered to do any font-setting-up either, but due to some accident or other the Korean characters look a lot more calligraphistical and (arguably) nicer. 19:48:16 Deewiant, for me, "Chinese Traditional" definitely have larger and bolder letters 19:48:46 Chinese (Generic) == Chinese Simplified 19:48:48 in the table 19:48:57 also 19:49:10 Japanese looks like the simplified Chinese 19:49:17 http://tar.us.to:4321/Han%20unification%20-%20Wikipedia,%20the%20free%20encyclopedia_1274294905927.png 19:49:23 and Korean like the "Chinese Traditional" 19:49:33 Deewiant, nothing like that 19:49:38 AnMaster: Look at the table of non-unified characters. 19:50:01 pikhq, varies between different lines there 19:50:12 but in general Japanese looks like Simplified Chinese 19:50:30 Yes, the first and second lines are two different glyph variants. 19:50:35 pikhq, for a few lines all entries on the line do look the same 19:50:55 To add another data point: http://zem.fi/~fis/wikihan.png 19:51:11 fizzie, even more specialised fonts 19:51:31 Unfortunately I chose another part of the table than Deewiant. 19:51:34 両, 两, and 兩 would be unified under normal Han unification rules. 19:51:54 As would 亀, 龜, and 龟. 19:52:02 pikhq, "U+4E21"? 19:52:05 well all are the same 19:52:07 over that line 19:52:37 AnMaster: Yes, they are the same glyph, and only one font has it encoded apparently. 19:52:41 pikhq, except they seem to have different baseline 19:52:47 Hrm. 19:53:08 bbl 19:55:33 That U+9F9C character in this font -- http://zem.fi/~fis/wikihan2.png -- looks like an electrical-drawing symbol for something very funky. 19:56:04 龜 19:56:24 That's a turtle. 19:56:51 fizzie, :D 19:56:53 My IRC font is so tiny that everything on-channel is just a messy blob. 19:56:59 Huh, isn't 亀 a turtle? 19:57:03 fizzie, same here 19:57:06 Deewiant: Yes. 19:57:14 龜 亀 19:57:16 huh 19:57:21 can't say they look similar 19:57:23 They'd be Han unified if it weren't for compatibility issues. 19:57:33 >_< 19:57:47 Along with 龟. 19:58:25 pikhq, so since these represent abstract concepts you said... 19:58:49 pikhq, does that mean with just a change of font, a Japanese could read a Chinese text 19:58:57 provided it only used "shared" glyphs 19:59:09 (I don't know if some are unique to one of the languages) 19:59:11 No. 19:59:15 pikhq, why not? 19:59:38 Radically different grammar and semantics. 19:59:47 ah 19:59:58 pikhq, then han unification made even less sense 20:00:03 Japanese merely *borrowed* Chinese characters for the purpose of writing their language. 20:00:08 But could it be like reading the world's most horrible machine translation of the other language? :p 20:00:21 fizzie: Most horrible? Perhaps. 20:00:50 The "shared semantics" thing is the sort-of justification for the unification: "This isn’t to say that ideographs are truly ideographic, in that they represent abstract ideas; but they generally have one root meaning from which the others derive, and generally retain the bulk of their semantic content across linguistic boundaries." 20:01:12 AnMaster: I should also note: Chinese is not one language, but several languages, which happen to have a common standard orthography. 20:01:23 I have been under the impression that it was mostly to get everything to fit in 16 bits, though I can't find that said anywhere. 20:01:37 (presently, said standard is moderately formal written Mandarin. Before the 50s or so, it was Classical Chinese.) 20:02:47 If it was only for the 16-bittiness, they should undo it now that they have 20 bits anyway. 20:03:09 pikhq, so widely different dialects then? 20:03:11 You can get Unicode's "semantic content" hints for any of the unified characters from http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=9f9c -- that's for the turtle -- after scrolling past mappings to other encodings. 20:03:26 pikhq, or is the grammar completely different? 20:03:44 (there are some grammatical variations in Swedish dialects iirc) 20:03:48 (at least in some) 20:03:58 (mostly gone in "current" times) 20:04:06 AnMaster: Grammar for the vernacular tends to have notable shifts. But they *are* related languages, so nothing quite as extreme as between Japanese and Chinese. 20:04:13 pikhq, right 20:04:23 They have, however, had *very* radical phoneme shifts. 20:05:16 ah 20:05:48 I'd say the best analogy is that the Sinitic languages are like the Romance languages, except with somehow writing in Latin being considered the way to write in the Romance languages. 20:06:13 (and... Reading it out loud using the local cognate words, not Latin) 20:06:24 Sinitic? Romance? 20:06:30 I have no clue what those are :P 20:06:34 Language families. 20:06:41 right 20:06:51 Sinitic languages = the languages deriving from Old Chinese. Romance languages = the languages deriving from Latin. 20:06:52 Romance is IIRC Eastern Europy. 20:06:59 ah 20:07:09 romance = portuguese, spanish, french, italian, romanian, and some other small ones 20:07:13 Phantom_Hoover: only romanian 20:07:14 right 20:07:21 Oh. 20:07:40 And there's also English, which is arguably half-Romance. :P 20:07:47 Only in vocabulary. 20:07:52 pikhq, I heard English placed as a germanic language? 20:08:05 It is Germanic in grammar and a lot of the words. 20:08:08 right 20:08:32 Phantom_Hoover, most(?) non-isolated languages imported words though 20:08:34 AnMaster: more english words are romance than germanic iirc, but the _most common_ words are germanic 20:08:43 Swedish is definitely from the germanic family 20:09:02 *mostly germanic 20:09:07 oerjan: Many of those common words are not, however, native to English. 20:09:10 but yet we have imported quite a few French words. garage and garderob iirc come from French 20:09:14 and there are more 20:09:35 (btw: garderob = wardrobe) 20:09:43 (garage = garage) 20:09:52 AnMaster: 25% of our vocab is from French. 20:09:57 25% of our vocab is from Latin. 20:10:07 pikhq, well it isn't as much for Swedish, but there are quite a few things... 20:10:09 pikhq: borrowings from other germanic languages, you mean? (like egg, skirt and such) 20:10:18 oerjan: Yes. 20:10:23 "Sky". 20:10:32 window (germanic) 20:10:40 pikhq, where is "sky" from? 20:10:40 I remember reading that in Welsh, the words for "church", "bridge" and "window" are all from Latin. 20:10:44 AnMaster: Old Norse. 20:10:50 oh makes sense 20:10:54 Thus implying that the ancient Britons did not have these things. 20:10:54 incidentally "sky" means "cloud" not sky in norwegian 20:10:56 we have sky in Swedish still 20:11:06 oerjan, not like that here 20:11:09 or rather 20:11:11 depends on context 20:11:38 sky would be "himmel", which also means heaven dependent on context 20:12:00 and I would say himeln for the sky in Swedish probably. More natural. Not that "skyn" is archaic 20:12:05 himlen* 20:12:15 Phantom_Hoover: "window" ~ "wind-eye" 20:12:17 We also developed quite a few grammar simplifications from Old Norse. 20:12:47 in new norwegian that's still transparent, "vindauge" = "vind" + "auge" 20:12:53 pikhq, also a simple rule for a/an. I love that in English 20:12:57 Deewiant: Yeah, but in Welsh it's something like "ffenys", which obviously derives from the Latin "fenestra". 20:13:00 a LOT easier to learn than French 20:13:02 or such 20:13:07 Oh, right, Welsh. 20:13:10 >_< 20:13:15 I'm not sure of "fenetr?"'s declension. 20:13:18 Phantom_Hoover, in modern Swedish, window is "fönster" 20:13:25 which came from German iirc 20:13:32 and then from other languages 20:13:37 AnMaster: :) 20:14:16 It evidently came to Finnish from Russian 20:14:17 pikhq, yet you haven't updated English yet. If even we dropped "window"/"vindöga" so should you :P 20:14:27 Deewiant, what did? fönster? 20:14:38 Yes, fi:ikkuna. 20:14:56 Deewiant, doesn't look similar to fönster at all, so I guess it is not connected to that at all 20:14:57 ru:окно. 20:15:01 defenestration is a cool word 20:15:03 Like I just said 20:15:24 Deewiant, sure but I meant where the Russians took it from 20:15:29 (obviously) 20:15:33 AnMaster: We just pile on other influences is all. 20:15:41 Right, that'd be Proto-Slavic. :-P 20:15:50 Defenestration is one of those words for which I'm dying to find a use. 20:15:55 Deewiant, ah. Is that like "no one knows for sure"? 20:15:59 Yes. 20:16:21 Or "it's so old that we lack the info". 20:16:28 Phantom_Hoover, what does it mean? 20:16:36 Phantom_Hoover: we could use it on you, and you'd be quite likely to be dying, yes 20:16:39 Throwing out of a window. 20:16:43 Phantom_Hoover, hah 20:17:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:17:12 Though out of a window feels like it should be "exfenestration". 20:17:49 According to Wiktionary (Swedish) "fönster" is from Latin too. 20:17:56 well given that it's _through_ the window, should be transfenestration 20:18:35 Phantom_Hoover: well naturally given de-fenestr-ation 20:19:14 Evidently the proto-Germanic people didn't have windows. 20:19:36 Phantom_Hoover: hey what's wrong with wind-eye 20:20:06 True, but why would it be applied inconsistently if it was in the root of the Germanic languages? 20:20:31 because using latin words is pretentious? 20:20:45 Indeed. 20:20:47 Except in English, where it's done without realising it. 20:21:03 I wish there was a Latin equivalent of "pretentious". 20:21:08 Or even that I knew one. 20:21:23 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum auditur. 20:21:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:21:44 "altum" means "profound", not "pretentious". 20:22:08 Phantom_Hoover: erm "pretentious" is obviously latin-derived? admittedly it may not have existed originally 20:22:32 True, but I suspect it's like "ostensibly". 20:22:42 hm? 20:22:58 "ostendo" just means "I show", not what it means in English. 20:23:31 well so ostensibly should mean "showably", then... 20:24:05 True, but it means something like "giving only the outwards appearance of" in English. 20:24:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:24:48 Sgeo! 20:24:57 however pretentious means pretending to be better than you are, so that's no so far off... i think 20:25:00 It's lonely in ##gameoflife. 20:25:23 It's ##gameoflife now? 20:25:36 oerjan: What I mean is that the Latin root probably has different connotations to the English word. 20:25:45 Sgeo: Yeah, it's a better name. 20:25:45 yeah 20:39:27 fizzie, I found out one of my rcxes doesn't work. 20:39:32 so I will have to do with a single one :( 20:40:09 1st commandment of troubleshooting: If thy Hardware breaks down, though must Hit it Sharply. 20:41:41 Phantom_Hoover, that doesn't apply to purely surface mounted components I think 20:41:53 I did check that I got voltage across the battery box 20:42:06 but yeah I can't do much about the tiny surface mounted components 20:42:06 Hast thou Hit it Harder? 20:42:11 * Sgeo can't wait to play Gish at the speed it was meant to be played at 20:42:22 Phantom_Hoover, hah 20:42:24 nah 20:42:48 Hm, the links to the games don't include the bundle ID 20:42:49 What could Possibly go Wrong? 20:42:58 So I could point someone to a game and not have it be traced to me >.> 20:43:12 Sgeo: How old is your machine now? :-P 20:43:14 Phantom_Hoover, a lot 20:43:15 Unless referer stuff is used, I guess 20:43:23 Deewiant, this is, um, 2006 or earlier 20:43:27 Phantom_Hoover, though lego is probably rugged when it comes to that 20:43:30 But far better than the 2000 machine I was on before 20:43:48 Gish is 2004, you know :-) 20:44:33 It still ran.. slowly.. on my old machine 20:45:06 Did you get it from a thrift shop in 2006? :-P 20:47:15 ? 20:47:45 I mean, any even half-new machine from 2006 /should/ be able to run Gish just fine 20:48:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:55:42 -!- charlls has joined. 20:57:29 Deewiant, Gish? 20:58:21 A game, I believe. 20:58:30 You control a blob of tar IIRC. 20:58:36 According to Wiktionary (Swedish) "fönster" is from Latin too. <-- probably. But indirectly 20:58:59 I read about it in SAOB (iirc) that it came from Mid-German or something like that 20:59:15 Phantom_Hoover, but they then imported it from somewhere south 21:00:53 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fenestra#Latin 21:00:57 Deewiant, it does 21:01:04 But before, I was on my machine from 2000 21:01:44 Ah; I was intending to query about the not-at-the-speed-Gish-was-meant-to-be-played machine 21:03:10 Time to play with Aquaria 21:03:48 aquaria are not to be played with! 21:04:03 -!- Oranjer has joined. 21:04:16 fish are delicate creatures 21:05:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:05:10 No they aren't. 21:05:24 Aquaria was a nice bonus; the only one of those games I hadn't already played 21:06:03 Phantom_Hoover: see how well they fare if you break the aquarium 21:07:23 That's like saying rhinoceroses are delicate because they die if you drop them in the ocean. 21:07:51 it's true - from a certain point of view 21:08:30 now if it were hippopotami... 21:09:36 "Hippopotamus" derives from Greek, not Latin, and I must go. 21:10:08 so? most greek words get squeezed through latin anyhow 21:10:14 Today I learned: rhinocerotes are delicate but hippopotamuses aren't 21:10:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:10:38 Deewiant: no one can say #esoteric isn't educational! 21:10:48 well they could, but they would be lying 21:10:50 that's its main purpose, isn't it? 21:11:03 that and instilling insanity 21:11:30 Same difference? 21:12:50 true, true 21:13:27 ais523: also, spam 21:13:47 I'll catch up with it in a bit 21:15:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:18:22 ok, deleted 21:20:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:23:11 You control a blob of tar IIRC. <-- well then gzip it ;P 21:23:14 * AnMaster runs 21:23:20 ais523, hi 21:23:24 hi 21:23:40 * oerjan runs after AnMaster and swats him -----### 21:23:42 ais523, can you tell me how VHDL integer overflow/underflow is handled? 21:23:54 integers? it isn't 21:24:05 STD_LOGIC_VECTORs overflow in the usual 2's complement way, though 21:24:26 actual integers are mostly only useful for things like testbenches, as they don't synthesise 21:24:37 ais523, so for befunge93 in VHDL a subtype like (79 downto 0) won't work? You would need border logic still? 21:24:49 ais523, ouch 21:24:56 AnMaster: oh, if you specify bounds, it might work 21:25:01 but that doesn't synthesise /at all/ 21:25:15 "integer from 79 downto 0" is not a type that exists in hardware 21:25:28 at least not without more information as to how to represent it 21:25:35 ais523, 100% sure? Because... at a lab at university we used an integer subtype with limited range and it did synthesize... 21:25:56 not 100% sure 21:26:05 I can imagine synthesisers that could manage that 21:26:26 ais523, well iirc (was a few weeks ago now) it wasn't that specific range 21:26:33 but hm 21:26:40 it might have been forced to a power of 2 21:26:49 well it was a power of two iirc 21:27:24 integer (255 downto 0) strikes me as pretty similar to std_logic_vector (7 downto 0) 21:27:30 and I don't see why you wouldn't use the second 21:27:44 ais523, can you add two of the latter? 21:27:46 you can cast it to an integer whenever you need its value, but now you also have a nice simple representation of it 21:27:49 AnMaster: yup 21:28:01 you need to import std_logic_vector arithmetic libraries, but they're standard 21:28:02 ais523, and increment it? And so on 21:28:29 and there'll be code inside the library to explain how to synthesise an adder, etc 21:28:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:28:55 ais523, which is the fastest "RAM" to implement on a FPGA? 21:29:01 ais523, and what about space usage 21:29:15 AnMaster: fastest "RAM" is if you go to the manufacturer and ask them for a RAM core 21:29:23 those are so basic you can normally get them for free 21:29:25 ais523, well, SRAM, d-latches, ... 21:29:48 ais523, I was considering a stack of 2048 items to go with the 25x80 fungespace of this... 21:29:50 AnMaster: onboard RAM goes at the rate of 1 per cycle, as normal 21:30:04 ais523, yep but would that be feasible as on board 21:30:12 on a typical FPGA 21:30:30 AFAIR, they're both pretty much equally feasible, you just have different quantities of them 21:30:40 onboard RAM takes less chip space as LUT RAM 21:30:46 ais523, ... well I meant the quantity I mentioned above 21:30:51 and they both take one clock cycle to read or right 21:30:53 *write 21:31:06 ais523, oh you mean they have special ram, not written like latches/flip-flops? 21:31:07 2 KB seems like a bit much for LUT RAM 21:31:08 huh 21:31:10 AnMaster: yes, they do 21:31:28 and, of course, it isn't portable 21:31:31 ais523, well I meant this to both run in ghdl and in theory be mostly synthisable 21:31:39 you need to get the RAM description from the manufacturer 21:31:43 ais523, so I'm confined to LUT RAM then 21:32:02 well, you could write your own synthesis model for some plausible onboard RAM 21:32:10 *simulation model 21:32:17 just in terms of arrays of integers or whatever 21:32:24 ais523, I'm going to attempt "portable" VHDL + a ghdl wrapper (mapping the signals to console IO and such) which could be replaced for actual synthesis 21:32:55 I say, make your "RAM" an entity 21:33:07 with one architecture just being LUT RAM, and another being simulated RAM 21:33:13 right 21:33:15 then you can add a third or fourth if you ever need on-chip RAM 21:33:18 I see 21:33:33 ais523, wouldn't simulated ram == lut ram? 21:33:47 probably run faster in an actual simulation 21:33:57 because you'd be manipulating numbers in memory, rather than arrays of bits 21:34:01 ais523, what about the registers? How should those be handled. I need like x,y,direction,stringmode 21:34:13 probably a few more, not sure 21:34:14 make them signals 21:34:32 that'll synthesise into LUT RAM, or possibly something more optimal 21:34:39 ais523, at what entity level? Or do you suggest I write the whole b93 interpreter in one entity? 21:35:05 those are at the level of the main entity; you can pass them as 'arguments' to other entities you use 21:35:12 ah 21:35:15 true 21:35:16 VHDL doesn't have monads, so you have to do it by hand 21:35:22 XD 21:35:34 ais523, port map presumably? 21:35:44 yes 21:35:49 or whatever stupid name VHDL uses for it 21:36:04 ais523, I thought you knew VHDL? 21:36:10 also these would need to be in and out, in various places 21:36:17 or inout 21:36:22 well yes 21:36:22 I do know VHDL, sort of 21:36:30 I'm scared of ending up driving it in multiple places 21:36:35 but normally I get Emacs to do all the details for me 21:36:40 eh? 21:36:48 * AnMaster used kate so far 21:37:03 AnMaster: try, so long as you have VHDL-mode you'll be pleasantly surprised 21:37:34 kate has a quite nice VHDL mode too 21:37:54 it red-underline-bold highlights mismatched end lines 21:38:03 like end entity somethingelse; 21:38:10 or whatever 21:38:22 or if ... case ... end case; end if 21:38:28 err 21:38:30 I meant 21:38:35 or if ... case ... end if; end case 21:38:37 duh 21:39:12 VHDL needs more tool support than Java, really 21:39:13 ais523, nice VHDL menu but what does all the options do 21:39:20 you don't use the menu, normally 21:39:24 it triggers as you type 21:39:32 e.g., type "entity " and see what happens 21:39:33 like... compose → wire components? 21:39:41 what on earth is that 21:39:45 no idea, offhand 21:40:19 hdl Electric Mode: Hide Value Toggle on (non-nil) 21:40:20 State: STANDARD. 21:40:20 Non-nil enables electrification (automatic template generation). 21:40:26 Vhdl* (on first line) 21:40:42 ais523, that had be confused for a bit before I read the desc... 21:40:52 (and realised it was *emacs* electric mode) 21:40:56 (not hardware electric) 21:41:19 it's what means I don't have to memorise lots of boilerplate 21:41:41 ais523, you mean library IEEE; use ieee.std_logic_1164.all;? 21:41:49 which is trivial to remember 21:42:02 no, I mean, say the syntax for entity 21:42:07 or even a simple for-generate loop 21:42:28 entity foo is ... end entity foo; 21:42:44 (I need to learn this, will have exam where I have to show I know it...) 21:44:55 AnMaster: not just that, there's all the boilerplate you have to put /inside/ that 21:45:11 VHDL has far too much syntax, it goes on for miles and most of it's redundant 21:45:45 ais523, oh inside that? port(a,b,c: in std_logic; d,e,f: out std_logic); ? 21:45:54 yes, that sort of thing 21:46:04 ais523, which isn't really redundant 21:46:18 ais523, is there anything except that an the generics stuff you put in the entity? 21:46:28 not really, but compare it to C 21:46:45 int entity_name(int a, int b, char c, char d); 21:46:57 considering how similar things are... 21:47:18 heh 21:47:29 ais523, but VHDL has functions too iirc? 21:47:32 which are different 21:47:51 VHDL has /everything/ 21:47:56 stuff like rising_edge() or various conversion routines 21:48:00 two sets of primitives, declarative and imperative 21:48:05 ais523, yes but what are VHDL functions used for? 21:48:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:48:20 ais523, you mean <= outside process vs. inside process kind of thing? 21:48:28 Update please. 21:48:37 AnMaster: pretty much 21:48:40 Phantom_Hoover: on what? 21:48:47 EVERYTHING. 21:48:49 Phantom_Hoover # apt-get update 21:48:56 Phantom_Hoover # apt-get upgrade 21:48:59 Phantom_Hoover, done :P 21:49:06 AnMaster: sudo aptitude update && sudo aptitude safe-upgrade 21:49:19 ais523, eh? who uses aptitude 21:49:30 it's kind of painful 21:49:31 I do nowadays; it keeps track of things a bit better than apt-get does 21:49:34 due to being higher level 21:49:34 ... 21:49:37 I use aptitude... 21:49:55 I should start using dpkg or something 21:50:21 AnMaster: and wget? 21:50:29 ais523, sure why not 21:50:30 Because I'm terrified of my system being filled to the brim with pointless packages that were needed when I wanted to experiment with X, which I have since uninstalled. 21:50:38 ais523, and sudo is annoying. Redirection issues 21:50:41 ais523: netcat? 21:50:55 or that with && 21:51:16 Phantom_Hoover: I don't mind my system filling with pointless packages 21:51:21 Phantom_Hoover, there are logs in topic 21:51:39 I have OCD... 21:52:11 AnMaster: Manually uninstalling the 5000 dependencies for whatever is even worse than just leaving them. 21:52:22 Phantom_Hoover, what has that got to do with apt-get? 21:52:32 it does track what is installed as dep 21:52:37 and what is explicitly installed 21:52:58 I do aptitude too; the conflict resolution is better. And I don't feel the pain. 21:52:58 Does it? 21:53:19 Phantom_Hoover, well at least it told me "this package is no longer required" in such a situation 21:53:20 a few times 21:53:42 fizzie, do you do apt-cache at least? 21:54:16 There's "apt-get autoremove" which does the "remove packages that were automatically installed to satisfy dependencies for some package and that are no more needed" task; I don't know if it's automagically invoked sometimes too. 21:54:32 fizzie, no it isn't. And shouldn't be 21:54:44 it tells you however if there are such packages 21:54:54 but happily it doesn't run it automatically 21:56:02 fizzie: there's a command-line option to ask for it to be automagically invoked 21:56:05 it isn't without that 21:56:36 Right, --auto-remove. 21:56:52 And a configuration item you can set. 21:56:52 you can set it in the config file I bet 21:56:57 yeah 21:57:03 APT::Get::AutomaticRemove. 21:57:26 They've been crafty and put that "matic" part in so that it wouldn't match the command/option. 21:57:51 * Phantom_Hoover ponders the reason that The Apprentice uses xylophone music. 22:01:15 xenophobia. 22:04:47 http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/wpeg.html 22:04:55 It's actually a pretty good idea. 22:05:11 Compression for the internet age. 22:05:43 -!- aschueler has joined. 22:06:52 * Phantom_Hoover begins rambling 22:07:39 * Phantom_Hoover stops. 22:09:12 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:09:55 ramble ramble, lurk and shamble 22:12:09 You're a mathematician, right? 22:12:51 -!- kk has joined. 22:13:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:13:38 -!- kk has changed nick to kar8nga. 22:13:46 oerjan: Well? 22:14:52 i suppose so 22:15:19 What kind? 22:15:46 mostly former 22:15:58 What do you do now? 22:16:05 nothing 22:16:28 used to be functional analysis and dynamical systems 22:17:46 oh and measure theory 22:17:54 of a kind 22:21:55 Of course. 22:22:20 And you remain annoyingly hard to Googlestalk. 22:23:02 if you want to googlestalk my published articles, all of them are collaborations with either Richard Gjerde or Alf Rustad. 22:23:33 (also Johan Aarnes in one three-author paper) 22:24:35 * Phantom_Hoover tries to calculate oerjan's Erdös number 22:24:44 4, via Aarnes 22:24:56 hah 22:25:04 I have a friend with a Bacon number of 3. 22:25:11 oerjan, so you don't have a job now? 22:25:15 no 22:25:22 oerjan, hm how do you pay bills and such? 22:25:30 His father published a paper, but as far as I can tell he's in an isolated network. 22:26:04 oh wait forgot Norway have social security... 22:26:22 Out-of-work mathematicians... 22:26:29 "Will integrate for food" 22:26:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:26:52 Phantom_Hoover, XD 22:32:17 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:32:37 AnMaster: Do you not have social security in Sweden? 22:38:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:39:15 -!- augur has joined. 22:39:28 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:40:16 we do 22:40:19 but yeah it isn't great 22:41:04 AnMaster: Compared with the US, I'm sure it is awesome. 22:41:26 -!- ws_ has changed nick to ws. 22:42:03 AnMaster: Would you become homeless if you did not have a job? If no, it's awesome compared to the US. 22:43:29 pikhq, most likely not. 22:43:43 but it would be harsh conditions 22:43:45 still 22:43:57 -!- elliottcable has changed nick to e_e_cable. 22:44:12 How harsh? 22:44:13 pikhq, the amount of money you get is just enough for rent and some food. Nothing more than that. 22:44:29 no new clothes can be fit in or anything 22:44:38 *Radically* better than the US. 22:46:31 -!- hiato has joined. 22:49:00 When unemployment pay ceases in the US, you're... Just kinda fucked. 22:58:46 -!- e_e_cable has changed nick to elliottcable. 23:00:09 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined. 23:02:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:10 -!- augur has joined. 23:04:29 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:17:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:18:26 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 23:18:56 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: null). 23:22:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:25:48 -!- coppro has joined. 23:26:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:31:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:35:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:37:13 -!- sdorand2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:46:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:46:28 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:54:06 -!- sdorand2 has joined. 23:54:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:54:50 * Sgeo was not expecting there to be boss fights in Aquaria 23:55:15 Aquaria? 23:55:31 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:55:49 if you mess with the boss you'll be sleeping with the fishes 23:56:00 -!- augur has joined. 23:56:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:56:26 maybe 23:56:38 one would think however that intelligent life appreciates other intelligent life 23:56:51 though where I fit I truly have no idea 23:57:42 * oerjan gently taps sdorand2's pun detector 23:57:58 one would hope.... 23:58:01 tsk, tsk 23:58:13 no idea what i've even stumbled across.... 23:58:17 i have some ideas 23:58:21 but they're all borderline insane 23:58:34 depending on one's relativistic philosophies 23:59:12 this channel is about esoteric programming languages, not the other kind of esoterica 23:59:25 perhaps its all the same thing