←2010-05-22 2010-05-23 2010-05-24→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:24 <alise> augur: that equation is simple
00:00:32 <alise> not all are
00:00:44 <alise> Interesting thing about -ms: it defaults to using blank spaces to separate paragraphs, not paragraph indentation.
00:00:52 <augur> s_n RIGHT = n/2 RIGHT ( a_1 RIGHT a_n RIGHT
00:00:58 <augur> er, minus the last right
00:01:03 <augur> sure, simple equation
00:01:11 <augur> but eh..
00:01:12 <augur> i dont know
00:01:15 <augur> either way its cool
00:01:19 <augur> it'd be nice to have on a blackboard
00:01:40 <augur> i'd love to have a giant interactive blackboard
00:02:00 <alise> pikhq: 10pt or 12pt, which would you rather read a mathematical paper in (disregarding 11pt)
00:03:14 <pikhq> Probably 12.
00:03:26 <alise> Oh wait:
00:03:27 <alise> Use the PP macro to create indented paragraphs, and the LP macro to
00:03:27 <alise> create paragraphs with no initial indent.
00:03:36 <alise> pikhq: Yeah; 10 is better for two-column text, I think.
00:04:51 <alise> I wonder if one should adjust the initial line indent when changing the font size.
00:04:52 <alise> Probably.
00:09:36 <alise> Ugh, why does -ms have to share a name with Microsoft's acronym.
00:09:41 <alise> So hard to google for.
00:10:10 <Sgeo_> Grrrr
00:10:22 <Sgeo_> The T-Mobile N1 users have Froyo access without rooting
00:10:23 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:10:34 <Sgeo_> I'm using an AT&T N1, and don't feel like rooting
00:10:37 -!- augur has joined.
00:14:40 <alise> I don't suppose anyone has used -ms?
00:17:09 <augur> alise, challenge?
00:17:42 <alise> ?
00:17:47 <alise> augur: Challenge?
00:17:56 <augur> want to take one? :D
00:18:00 <augur> its a minor little programming challenge
00:18:03 <augur> but
00:18:11 <alise> If you solve my roff problem, sure.
00:18:23 <augur> whats roff
00:18:38 <alise> Typesetting system. The reason UNIX was created.
00:18:50 <alise> "man groff_ms" in particular is the bit I'm having troubles with.
00:18:51 <augur> lol
00:19:05 <alise> I want to put a date in my title header, but not on the cover page; the two macros it lists for adding dates to the cover page don't work.
00:19:15 <alise> augur: no quite literally the reason it was created
00:19:22 <alise> it was what they got the grant money for
00:19:36 <augur> interesting
00:20:19 <alise> so what's the challenge
00:21:07 <augur> gimme a sec
00:26:07 <alise> augur:
00:26:30 <pineapple> cos that was 300
00:29:14 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
00:29:46 <augur> ok ehird
00:29:50 <augur> alise, rather
00:31:14 <alise> alisey hird
00:31:26 <augur> :P
00:34:58 <alise> http://filebin.ca/zuput/example.pdf Some more roff fluff, and the code that generated it: http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg
00:35:03 <alise> pikhq: ^ How does the font size in this look?
00:36:37 <pikhq> alise: Huh. Groff actually produces reasonable output.
00:36:42 <augur> alise, ok, here goes
00:36:47 <alise> pikhq: Yep, groff + eqn.
00:36:56 <alise> I actually prefer how it sets the derivative definition to how TeX does it.
00:36:57 <pikhq> It's no TeX, but that's not bad typesetting.
00:37:08 <alise> The input was easy to do, too: http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg
00:37:33 <alise> pikhq: Well it WAS written by James Clark, Mr. "I was educated at Charterhouse. I read Mathematics and Philosophy at Merton College, Oxford, where I obtained Class I Honours." http://jclark.com/jjc-wg8.jpg
00:37:38 <augur> assume you have custom-definable pair data types, and custom atomic values
00:37:42 <pikhq> alise: Ah, yes.
00:37:57 <alise> pikhq: Anyway, think I should up the font size? Please say no; I'd have to adjust all the other values accordingly.
00:38:13 <pikhq> Looks nice and readable.
00:38:20 <alise> It's 10pt, funnily enough.
00:38:34 <alise> I definitely like http://pastie.org/972885.txt?key=v368qgkjxe5ym05ueotg more than the equivalent LaTeX you'd need to generate that. The boilerplate is tedious.
00:38:38 <augur> and assume you have already one kind of pair type, call it a normal pair, denoted by (x,y)
00:38:44 <alise> Although plain TeX might be better, it's a bit bare bones.
00:38:52 <alise> augur: So we are assuming a language?
00:38:59 <pikhq> I get the strong feeling that groff takes inspiration from TeX in its output.
00:39:03 <alise> Custom-definable pair data types -- what do you mean?
00:39:11 <augur> make up the language as you go, so long as it fits the constraints defined
00:39:13 <alise> as in you can specify N types
00:39:16 <pikhq> (for instance, it seems to be using the same line-breaking algorithm)
00:39:24 <alise> pikhq: Actually, its output is almost identical to traditional troff.
00:39:36 <augur> custom-definable, like haskell's compound data types, but pairs only, restricted to two values exactly
00:39:49 <augur> think of them as tagged cons pairs, if you want
00:39:57 <alise> pikhq: Two files for your consideration: http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/trofftut/trofftut.ps http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps
00:40:08 <alise> augur: Okay, so, axioms:
00:40:15 <pikhq> alise: So, it's more that only real computer scientists can do computer typesetting well, then?
00:40:46 <alise> (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type) s.t. for all (x:A, y:B), (x,y):C.
00:40:59 <alise> custom atomic values -- like Lisp symbols?
00:41:05 <alise> pikhq: Pretty much.
00:41:06 <augur> sure
00:41:10 <alise> augur: or numbers?
00:41:13 <alise> Or any sort of atom?
00:41:20 <alise> Basically any predefined infinite type, right?
00:41:21 <augur> or like haskell's atomic values. data Blip = Bop | Dorp
00:41:33 <alise> Ah.
00:41:34 <augur> i also dont care about the types in the pairs. they dont have to be typed, honestly.
00:41:42 <augur> the pairs themselves are typed tho
00:41:44 <alise> The axiom, then, is that "we have type definition".
00:41:46 <alise> <augur> and assume you have already one kind of pair type, call it a normal pair, denoted by (x,y)
00:41:47 <augur> so you can pattern match
00:41:48 <alise> Polymorphic?
00:41:57 <augur> if you want
00:42:00 <alise> I don't get it.
00:42:04 <augur> whatever works for the task
00:42:08 <alise> How is there any other type of pair other than the normal pair (x,y)?
00:42:18 <augur> data Flip x y
00:42:23 <Gregor> augur, pikhq: Y'know, I'm doing some FAIRLY major restructuring of Op. 13
00:42:25 <augur> is not data Blop x y
00:42:25 <Gregor> JUST FOR YOU
00:42:32 <augur> even if x and y are integers
00:42:44 <pikhq> alise: I imagine TeX handles complex things a bit better than it, but honestly, troff's output is quite nice. It does things right.
00:42:57 <augur> they're pairs, right? ones a Flip the others a Blop, but they're pairs. they're just different "kinds" of pairs
00:43:51 <alise> pikhq: Yeah; I can see myself using this for little notes.
00:43:53 <pikhq> Gregor: Awesome.
00:43:53 <alise> augur: So:
00:43:57 <alise> (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type, C*: A,B => C) s.t. for all (a:A, b:B, c:A, d:B), (C*(a,b) = C*(c,d)) <=> (a = c /\ b = d).
00:44:09 <augur> i dont know what that means :P
00:44:24 <alise> We can then define normal pair ourselves, so.
00:44:34 <augur> oh, yeah, a normal pair is just, say
00:44:39 <augur> data Pair x y
00:45:02 <augur> anyway
00:45:04 <augur> so the challenge is this
00:45:09 <augur> assuming that you have that stuff
00:45:13 <alise> (A:Type, B:Type) => (C:Type, C*: A,B => C) s.t. for all (a:A, b:B, c:A, d:B), (C*(a,b) = C*(c,d)) <=> (a = c /\ b = d).
00:45:13 <alise> (N:nat) => (A:Type, A*: nat (< N) => A).
00:45:31 <alise> The latter lets us have "type 3" along with the values 3*(0), 3*(1), 3*(2).
00:45:36 <alise> augur: Okay. Go ahead.
00:45:57 <augur> how can you define a collection of tail recursive operations over pairs (of one type or another as you see fit), that will let you replace an arbitrary item in some complex normal pair
00:46:10 <augur> e.g. i want to replace the 3 in (1,((2,3),4)) with a 0
00:46:20 <augur> you could define something like this:
00:46:38 <alise> So this is just a language-inventing challenge?
00:46:38 <augur> SwapAll x = 0
00:47:22 <augur> SwapLeft (x,y) = (SwapAll x, y) OR (SwapLeft x, y) OR (SwapRight x, y)
00:47:38 <alise> Your challenge is too vague for me to do anything.
00:47:44 <alise> I do not know what I am supposed to be doing. Defining a language?
00:47:44 <augur> SwapRight (x,y) = (x, SwapAll y) OR (x, SwapLeft y) OR (x, SwapRight Y)
00:47:57 <augur> define the operations
00:48:29 <augur> i just defined three operations there that, with appropriate choice of the alternatives, will let you swap the 3 for a 0 in (1,((2,3),4))
00:48:49 <alise> Sorry, you're going to have to be more specific.
00:48:52 <alise> Define the operations in what language?
00:49:00 <alise> Where is the part that I get "marked" on?
00:49:01 <augur> i dont care
00:49:05 <augur> just make it formal enough to grasp
00:49:08 <alise> So I can use an existing language?
00:49:55 <augur> SwapRight (1,((2,3),4)) => (1, SwapLeft ((2,3), 4)) => (1, (SwapRight (2,3), 4)) => (1,((2,SwapAll 3), 4)) => (1,((2,0),4))
00:50:28 <alise> I am still left baffled at
00:50:32 <alise> 1. what exactly SwapRight does; and
00:50:35 <alise> 2. what I am supposed to do.
00:51:09 <augur> SwapRight (x,y) says "do some swapping in the right (y) element of the pair (x,y), replacing something there with the number 0"
00:51:16 <augur> it gives you three ways you can do this
00:51:27 <augur> you can swap something in the left of y
00:51:32 <augur> you can swap something in the right of y
00:51:36 <augur> or you can swap the whole of y
00:51:53 <augur> think of it as an alternative in a rewriting system
00:53:29 <alise> augur: I see.
00:53:32 <alise> How does it decide which?
00:53:41 <alise> pikhq: Give me one good reason not to write my own typesetting system!
00:54:08 <augur> eh. who cares. it's not a targetting replacement. the choice is free, and whichever choice is made results in whichever replacements
00:54:40 <augur> if you want to replace 3, thats the series of choices you'd have to make
00:55:14 <pikhq> alise: I can't.
00:55:19 <augur> but, crucially, that definition is fully recursive
00:55:33 <augur> because the swap operations are applying to deeper and deeper parts of the pair
00:55:38 <alise> pikhq: ^_^
00:55:48 <alise> pikhq: This means I get to learn about typography and things!
00:55:54 <pikhq> alise: Huzzah.
00:56:17 <alise> And, and macros, and syntax, and...
00:56:52 <alise> pikhq: Of course, now the thing is to resist all temptations to reverse-engineer.
00:57:01 <alise> Err
00:57:03 <alise> pikhq: Of course, now the thing is to resist all temptations to over-engineer.
00:57:12 <pikhq> Yes.
00:57:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:01:09 -!- Oranjer has joined.
01:01:09 <alise> I do, however, like lout's functional take on stuff.
01:01:26 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
01:02:06 <Mathnerd314> alise: reason to not write typesetting system: you could use TeX
01:02:15 <SgeoN1> What's wrong with overengineering, said the creator of PSOX
01:05:14 <alise> Mathnerd314: Where's the fun in that?
01:07:48 <alise> G.E.B. was typeset with some system called SMUT before anyone else was doing it.
01:11:03 <Mathnerd314> ok; I must admit that TeX formulas are horrible compared to OOO's :p
01:12:09 <alise> Horrible?
01:12:11 <alise> Like howso?
01:12:19 <alise> In typesetting output? If you think so you are insane.
01:12:23 <alise> In input format? Ehh, point.
01:12:27 <alise> But it /is/ very extensible...
01:13:43 <Mathnerd314> yeah, in input
01:13:57 <Mathnerd314> OOO could be made extensible as well, I think
01:14:07 <augur> alise: nothing?
01:14:10 <alise> OO.o sucks though.
01:14:13 <augur> no ideas? :(
01:14:18 <alise> augur: <alise> augur: I see.
01:14:18 <alise> <alise> How does it decide which?
01:14:28 <augur> i answered that!
01:14:33 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:14:41 -!- augur has joined.
01:14:49 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:14:53 <augur> i answered that. :|
01:15:02 <Mathnerd314> doing parsing is *not that hard*
01:15:04 <alise> you did not
01:15:08 <alise> Mathnerd314: of course not.
01:15:17 <augur> i did!
01:15:46 <augur> you dont decide. you do whatever you want. the choices you make lead to different replacements. its not a targetted replacement _algorithm_, its just a series of operations
01:16:02 <augur> sort of like with a formal grammar
01:16:22 <augur> IF you want to produce this or that sentence, then you'd have to make these choices of rule application
01:16:41 <Mathnerd314> alise: what stages would/will your typesetting system use?
01:16:45 <augur> what the algorithm is for making that choice, well, thats the parsing problem and thats not the goal here
01:16:56 <augur> the goal is the definition of the possible choices
01:17:07 <alise> Mathnerd314: Stages defined howso?
01:17:15 <alise> augur: Would you be upset if I said I thought your problem was boring? :(
01:17:33 <augur> nope
01:17:57 <alise> augur: >_> Sorry.
01:18:04 <alise> I'm a bit tired mind.
01:18:05 <augur> ill give you a solution
01:18:08 <alise> Maybe tomorrow
01:18:13 <alise> s/$/./
01:18:32 <Mathnerd314> alise: e.g., TeX's stages are input->macros->lines->pages->output
01:18:49 <augur> here is the solution i know of
01:19:35 <augur> if we let * be the operator for a special "continuation" pair
01:19:42 <augur> Push x = x*1
01:19:44 <alise> Mathnerd314: well, input -> obviously
01:19:46 <augur> Pop x*1 = x
01:19:57 <alise> then parser which would parse things like {} and . -- but we'd handle defined characters earlier
01:20:02 <alise> things like
01:20:03 <alise> "abc"
01:20:06 <alise> would expand to
01:20:08 <augur> Left1 (x,y)*z = x*(y,z)
01:20:09 <alise> .ldq abc .rdq
01:20:13 <alise> for pretty quotes
01:20:15 <alise> at this time
01:20:18 <augur> Left2 = x*(y,z) = (x,y)*z
01:20:18 <alise> or, wait, no
01:20:22 <alise> it'd parse it into objects
01:20:27 <alise> /then/ it'd do that
01:20:37 <alise> commands like .foo {abc} would be seen as functions transforming a typesetting-object to another one
01:20:38 <augur> Right1 (x,y)*z = y*(z,x)
01:20:43 <augur> Right2 y*(z,x) = (x,y)*z
01:20:45 <Mathnerd314> maybe a clearer pipeline: input->tokens->conditionals->macro expansion->boxes->lines->pages->output
01:20:46 <augur> End.
01:20:47 <alise> then ->pages->output
01:20:55 <alise> {abc} would basically be a box
01:21:02 <alise> this is basically the lout system, I'd differentiate it somehow
01:21:26 <zzo38> Ensure that fancy quotes and ligatures are disabled when fixed pitch fonts are being used
01:22:28 <zzo38> 2600 doesn't disable ligatures with fixed pitch fonts, and that is a problem
01:22:31 <alise> zzo38: Fixed pitch fonts won't be being used, presumably -- if you would use a fixed pitch font, why use a typesetter?
01:22:36 <alise> Or do you mean in e.g. verbatim code snippet sections?
01:22:40 <alise> In which case, yes, I agree.
01:22:52 <alise> 2600 the magazine? Or some other 2600?
01:22:58 <zzo38> Yes, I mean in small sections embedded in the document, such as verbatim code snippet section and stuff like that
01:23:03 <zzo38> Yes, I mean 2600 magazine
01:23:54 <Mathnerd314> my ideal pipeline would be input->program->{libraries}->execute->output
01:24:01 <alise> Mathnerd314: A goal with my system would be to support easy preprocessors, such that you can have things like mathematics typesetting as separate programs that scan through the text, and look for their commands and then rewrite their contents with more primitive drawing commands.
01:24:32 <augur> alise: issat make sense?
01:24:39 <alise> So you'd have something like "mathset foo | refset | tableset | typeset".
01:24:45 <alise> augur: Yes.
01:24:52 <alise> augur: Sort of.
01:25:02 <augur> on top of that, just add a rule
01:25:12 <augur> Swap x*y => 0*y
01:25:39 <augur> so now to replace the 3 in (1,((2,3),4)):
01:26:45 <augur> and uh ... replacing the push rule's 1 with an @ because im na idiot
01:26:59 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/ikfxw.png
01:27:04 <alise> Oldie but a goodie
01:27:52 <augur> (1,((2,3),4)) ==Push==> (1,((2,3),4))*@ ==Right==> ((2,3),4)*(@,1) ==Left==> (2,3)*(4,(@,1)) ==Right==> 3*((4,(@,1)),2) ==Swap==> 0*((4,(@,1)),2)
01:28:13 <augur> and i trust you can figure out how to reverse this now to pull the shit back to get (1,((2,0),4))
01:28:14 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:29:45 -!- comex_ has changed nick to comex.
01:30:44 <alise> comex mexicom
01:31:36 <comex> my password on normish used to be comexico
01:31:43 <comex> ehird came up with it, I think
01:31:45 <augur> for some context, alise: traditional proof systems only allow "shallow inferences" which are essentially just operations at the root of the structure being manipulated
01:31:48 <comex> when e generated my account
01:32:07 <alise> yeah i did
01:32:12 <augur> so if you want to replace an element deep inside the object being manipulated, you have to figure out some way of bringing that object to the "surface"
01:32:42 <augur> but in a non-destructive way, so you dont loose any information and can recover the original object, modulo the swap
01:32:52 <alise> http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-05-19-beartato-guesswhat.gif
01:33:00 <Sgeo_> Maybe it's safe to reveil what my password for Circe's SVN was
01:33:26 <augur> cyborg surgery! :D
01:33:35 <alise> Sgeo_: "Maybe"?
01:33:36 <alise> MAYBE?
01:33:38 <alise> jesus christ man.
01:33:50 <alise> comex: you should move to comexico and sign letters with
01:33:54 <alise> Comex,
01:33:58 <augur> alise: did you write this comic
01:34:00 <alise> Mexico,
01:34:03 <augur> i feel like you would write something like this
01:34:06 <alise> Com.
01:34:10 <alise> augur: no it's nedroid.com
01:34:14 <alise> but yes it is totally my style.
01:34:16 <alise> (except better)
01:34:19 <augur> maybe you're nedroid!
01:34:24 <alise> no i don't think so
01:34:26 <augur> maybe nedroid is you
01:34:32 <augur> IN THE FUTURE
01:35:09 <alise> Clearly not; I would never make such a blatant error as to refer to the INTEGER OF PI: http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-05-12-beartato-bignerd.gif
01:35:17 <alise> Unless he was talking about actually getting the computer to calculate... "3"
01:35:32 <Sgeo_> ctcpgod
01:40:07 <Mathnerd314> hmm, no ##grammarnazis channel
01:42:56 <alise> thank god.
01:44:00 <Mathnerd314> well, I wanted to know whether it was "negative one bean" or "negative one beans"
01:44:22 <alise> Good question.
01:44:51 <alise> Mathnerd314: If I was giving a figure, I might use the latter, but as a list perhaps "Negative two beans, negative one bean, no beans, one bean, two beans, ...".
01:44:52 <alise> Not sure.
01:44:59 <alise> bean, I think.
01:46:25 <alise> Mathnerd314: "Negative one bean", thinks my Oxford-educated (okay this is becoming a bit of a stretch) friend.
01:46:34 <alise> (Although that was preceded with an "I don't know.")
01:48:08 <Gregor> Singular "bean"
01:48:17 <Gregor> I actually looked this up at some point because it's really wonky :P
01:48:36 <Gregor> From an English standpoint, it's read as negative (one bean), not (negative one) bean
01:49:39 <Gregor> (Mind you, "looked it up" = asked my mom the librarian and later saw that "the tuberwebs" agrees :P )
01:49:45 <oerjan> it's all moot since you'll all die from the antimatter explosion anyway
01:51:51 <zzo38> According to Road to Reality book, "negative one proton" would be "one virtual anti-proton"
01:51:52 <Gregor> True
01:52:23 <zzo38> But I like "protoff" for anti-protons
01:52:38 <Gregor> lol
01:53:00 <zzo38> Anti-electrons already has a different name which is "positron", so perhaps anti-protons also
01:53:28 * Gregor punches alise
01:53:34 <zzo38> Just "electrons", I think?
01:53:38 <oerjan> Gregor: hey i was going to swat him
01:53:56 <SgeoN1> Tremulous map downloads take a while.
01:54:08 <Gregor> SgeoN1: So does your FACE.
01:55:02 <zzo38> How to download curl? It doesn't work
01:56:37 -!- coppro has joined.
01:56:51 <Gregor> zzo38: curl -O http://curl.haxx.se/download/curl-7.20.1.tar.gz
01:57:45 <oerjan> *facepalm*
01:58:02 <Mathnerd314> I was going to do that too :p
01:58:11 <zzo38> But I don't have curl already
01:58:16 <zzo38> And anyways that server seems down
01:58:33 <oerjan> zzo38: let me break this to you gently...
01:58:41 <zzo38> I have wget
01:58:49 <oerjan> i think Gregor knew that
01:59:00 <zzo38> Perhaps this mirror will work
01:59:08 <zzo38> oerjan: I think so too, probably it is joke?
01:59:31 <alise> I think most probably, it is joke.
01:59:57 <zzo38> Yes
02:00:06 <Mathnerd314> zzo38: source or binary?
02:00:27 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:00:34 <zzo38> Win32 binary
02:01:33 <Mathnerd314> I use this: http://www.gknw.net/mirror/curl/win32/curl-7.20.1-devel-mingw32.zip
02:02:39 <zzo38> That's good
02:02:46 <zzo38> Now I have curl and wget
02:04:04 <zzo38> Now I think I just need to add it to the PATH
02:07:34 <SgeoN1> 20min ddownload for a freaking map
02:09:18 <zzo38> It works
02:09:24 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/dfZA
02:15:37 -!- augur has joined.
02:15:45 <zzo38> Is it good?
02:16:04 <zzo38> A similar way could be written for UNIX systems too
02:16:40 <alise> It's a decent shell script.
02:17:21 <augur> o hai
02:18:24 <alise> Anyone here familiar with lout?
02:21:05 <zzo38> I don't familiar with lout
02:21:39 <coppro> alise: you're a lout
02:22:12 <alise> Indeed, but unrelatedly, the typesetting system ...
02:22:35 <zzo38> Different Linux distribution might use different code-names schemes for their versions, but I have my own scheme if I make Linux distribution (probably I will start when I get another computer to test it with, which might be in a few months since that is when Free Geek will provide one):
02:23:28 <zzo38> First version can be called "Initial", second version "Illimitable Illithid", fourth version "Interrupt Vector", sixth version "Vancouver Island", do you think this is good scheme? Do you like this?
02:25:14 <zzo38> And I don't want to include any non-free
02:25:42 <alise> Here's a good naming scheme
02:25:42 <alise> 1
02:25:42 <alise> 2
02:25:43 <alise> 3
02:25:43 <alise> 4
02:25:44 <zzo38> I already have the ISO for Linux From Scratch, but I didn't record a DVD with it yet
02:25:44 <alise> 5
02:25:44 <alise> 6
02:25:46 <alise> 7
02:25:48 <alise> 8
02:25:50 <alise> ...
02:25:52 <alise> G_64
02:25:54 <alise> ...
02:26:06 <pikhq> zzo38: Roman numeral backronyms, eh?
02:26:24 <zzo38> I doubt I (or anyone else) would ever make a Linux distribution as many versions as high as G_64??
02:26:27 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes
02:26:35 <pikhq> Nice.
02:26:48 <zzo38> Debian uses Toy Story, and Ubuntu uses two word both start with one same letter
02:27:00 <pikhq> Well, if Slackware decides to do another version skip, it might skip straight to G_64.
02:27:38 <zzo38> Maybe, but I don't think so, because such numbers are probably too large to use in a computer program in the version number field
02:27:41 <alise> zzo38: Ubuntu uses [Adjective] [Animal] alliteratively
02:27:58 <zzo38> alise: Yes, that's what I meant
02:28:04 <alise> SYMBOLIC version = SymbolicIndex(GrahamsNumber, SymbolicNumber(64));
02:28:11 <alise> SYMBOLIC version = SymbolicIndex(GrahamsNumbers, SymbolicNumber(64));
02:37:32 <zzo38> I wrote a program called "Field Manipulator" do you think this is OK? http://sprunge.us/GWRY
02:38:10 <alise> Not sure what it does but there you go
02:38:41 <zzo38> It does field manipulator, that is what it does!
02:38:47 <oerjan> Article Adverb Adjective Animals
02:39:21 <alise> zzo38: wut/
02:40:13 <alise> zzo38: You should write your own typesetting system.
02:40:14 <alise> I bet it'd be awesome.
02:41:19 <zzo38> If you want the first field of a file and separated by colons, you do: fm -t58 Tmx
02:41:32 <zzo38> That's how you do it.
02:42:08 <zzo38> And if you want to add zero at the start of each line, you do: fm m "0"
02:42:15 <zzo38> See? Now you know.
02:42:39 <alise> Cool.
02:44:51 <zzo38> alise: I probably don't write a typesetting system, although I have done the stuff that is used before a typesetting systems
02:47:50 <alise> zzo38: Just make it output postscript >_>
02:55:29 <zzo38> Make what output postscript?
02:56:08 <alise> zzo38: A typesetting system.
02:56:11 <alise> Then it's "easy"
02:57:50 <zzo38> I don't plan to write a typesetting system
02:58:03 <zzo38> But I might do so if I change my mind
02:59:55 <alise> I want to port ADVENT to something.
03:00:14 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:12:33 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...).
03:21:14 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
03:50:27 <Gregor> augur, pikhq: Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp4.ogg . Op. 13 will probably be in two movements maybe perhaps.
03:52:09 <pikhq> I apparently cannot has HTTP ATM.
03:52:22 <pikhq> I'll grant you an opinion next time I can has bandwidth.
03:52:24 <Gregor> lawlz
03:52:50 <Gregor> Basically, think "the non-stormy parts of WIPP3, rearranged to flow hopefully well together" :P
03:52:57 <pikhq> Mmm.
03:53:23 <Gregor> I'm defining the parts with the repeating arpeggio in the right hand as "stormy" btw :P
03:53:39 <pikhq> Mmkay.
03:53:43 <Gregor> Also, ABOVE RECORDED WHILE NUDE.
03:53:46 <Gregor> Just FYI.
03:53:54 <Gregor> :P
03:54:43 <alise> ...:|
03:54:46 <alise> WHY DID YOU SAY THAT.
03:55:00 <Gregor> I felt it was important information :P
03:56:51 <alise> Sleep time nao.
03:56:52 <alise> Bye!
03:56:55 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving).
03:57:44 <pikhq> My God he's sleeping on a Saturday night.
03:57:59 <pikhq> Erm. Sunday morning.
03:58:02 <pikhq> *Still*.
03:58:25 <Gregor> NOT ON THE SABBATH
04:00:58 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:08:37 -!- augur_ has joined.
04:10:57 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
04:12:13 <zzo38> Port ADVENT into TAVSYS
04:12:33 <pikhq> I must confess, I read that as "Port ADVENT into TARDIS".
04:12:58 <zzo38> What is TARDIS?
04:13:19 <pikhq> ... You're kidding.
04:13:20 -!- gm|lap has joined.
04:13:32 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
04:13:38 <oerjan> BUT WHO WAS PHONE (BOOTH)
04:13:57 <zzo38> Which phone booth did you mean? The phone booth or the phone booth?
04:14:03 <coppro> the TARDIS
04:14:08 <pikhq> zzo38: You. Watch Doctor Who. Now.
04:14:16 <zzo38> I don't have that tape
04:14:19 <pikhq> (don't worry about seeing the whole thing, unless you have a couple years to spare)
04:14:45 <zzo38> Or perhaps I do have that tape, but I don't think I have that tape
04:15:22 <zzo38> Perhaps port ADVEN into TAVSYS and also port ADVENT into TARDIS
04:15:28 <pikhq> It's a TV series. The most popular one in Britain, last I check.
04:15:34 -!- Zuu has joined.
04:15:34 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host).
04:15:35 -!- Zuu has joined.
04:15:40 <zzo38> I know that much already
04:15:57 <zzo38> But I don't live in Britain
04:16:00 <pikhq> The TARDIS is one of the most recognisable features of it.
04:16:13 <pikhq> It is also much-beloved by many American sci-fi fans.
04:16:20 <zzo38> OK
04:18:02 <zzo38> But I still don't have it
04:18:11 <pikhq> Obtain it.
04:18:15 * Sgeo_ has heard of Dr. Who, but never saw it
04:18:16 <pikhq> And watch it.
04:18:20 <Sgeo_> Where can I watch?
04:18:25 <Sgeo_> And where do I start?
04:18:43 <zzo38> Sgeo_: You need to purchase the tape, of course!
04:18:52 <zzo38> Perhaps you need more than one tape
04:18:54 <Sgeo_> Not purchasing anything
04:18:57 -!- augur has joined.
04:18:58 <pikhq> The easiest way to start is to start with Series 1 of the recent reboot.
04:19:06 <pikhq> I'm not sure of an easy place to obtain it.
04:19:17 <pikhq> Though I'm sure BitTorrent has a nearly-comprehensive collection.
04:19:27 <zzo38> Sgeo_: If you live in Britain perhaps you can see
04:19:34 <zzo38> But I don't know because I don't have at Britain
04:19:38 <Sgeo_> I don't
04:19:50 <zzo38> That's what I thought.
04:19:51 * Sgeo_ doesn't feel like torrenting illegal stuff
04:19:53 <pikhq> Some 100G for the whole thing.
04:20:17 <pikhq> Not all episodes have had official releases.
04:20:34 <pikhq> A few of the early episodes have no known copies, sadly.
04:21:11 <pikhq> New episodes can be found on BBCA on Sunday, IIRC.
04:21:25 <oerjan> clearly dr who is a secret alien plot to make humans invent time travel.
04:21:37 <oerjan> so they can find those original episodes.
04:22:12 <Sgeo_> Didn't say I wouldn't be willing to watch illegal, just that I don't want to torrent illegally
04:23:52 <zzo38> Now I invented Spider Tarot
04:24:14 <oerjan> spider, rider, what's the difference
04:24:16 <zzo38> Majors can wrap (the fool is zero) (both for movement and for removal), but minors do not wrap.
04:24:37 <zzo38> Majors can count as any suit for movement (but not for removal).
04:25:10 <zzo38> If you have rods and majors mixed together you can move them all at once, but if you have rods and cups together, or rods and cups ad majors together, you cannot move them all together.
04:25:17 <zzo38> There. That's all.
04:25:59 <zzo38> Is this good enough?
04:28:40 -!- poiuy_qwert has left (?).
04:42:58 <Sgeo_> WTF
04:43:13 <Sgeo_> I just heard music that I thought could only be heard in Second Life
04:43:51 <zzo38> Any music can go anywhere, I suppose
04:44:26 <Gregor> If the music doesn't come from second life, its waveform will degrade midair.
04:44:27 <Sgeo_> Find me Foxyflwr CUre's "Anyway" on the web, please
04:44:41 <Sgeo_> Doubt you'll find it
04:44:53 <Sgeo_> Or "Arthur Nix"
04:45:09 <Sgeo_> Hm, mistaken about the latter
04:45:20 <Sgeo_> http://www.last.fm/music/Jupiter+Sunrise/_/Arthur+Nix
04:45:39 <oerjan> nix on the arthur
04:45:41 <Sgeo_> So I guess the tune I heard might be somewhere on the web
04:46:39 <Sgeo_> If we had the power to trap anything that could hurt a human being inside a jar, send it far from Earth, and watch it explode in the Sun, to the cheers of everyone
04:46:43 <Sgeo_> But alas that can't be done
04:47:12 <zzo38> Human being can hurt human being
04:47:18 <Gregor> Hooray for a dull and uninteresting life?
04:47:20 <zzo38> And surely that isn't the good idea anyways
04:47:32 <zzo38> For various reasons
04:48:11 * Sgeo_ is surprised no one went for "human beings inside jars?" or something
04:48:35 <Sgeo_> http://s12.last.fm/preview/110865117/154/0020389183/11/741308676.mp3
04:48:57 <oerjan> one of the mad scientists in girl genius had that
04:49:29 <oerjan> dr. beetle
04:51:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
05:02:59 -!- weinjared has joined.
05:07:42 -!- weinjared has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:15:35 -!- augur has joined.
05:35:09 <Gregor> augur: Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp4.ogg . Op. 13 will probably be in two movements maybe perhaps.
05:35:51 <augur> Gregor: not right now :P
05:35:58 <Gregor> Well foo to you too!
05:36:33 <pikhq> Wgetting now.
05:36:51 <pikhq> Will listen after this episode of Darker Than Black: 黒の契約者
05:37:06 <pikhq> (yes, the *actual title of the series* is in two different languages)
05:37:09 <Gregor> Ooooooh
05:37:13 <Gregor> Darker than Black
05:37:16 <Gregor> That's pretty darn dark.
05:37:31 <pikhq> It's a fairly dark series, in all honesty.
05:39:59 <Gregor> Y'know, alt-tab really ought to change tabs instead of windows.
05:40:06 <Gregor> I mean, clearly what you want is an alternate tab.
05:40:27 <pikhq> Clearly.
05:44:26 * pikhq listens
05:49:24 <pikhq> Now it feels like it needs a second movement.
05:50:08 <zzo38> Gregor: In some Windows programs CTRL+TAB changes tabs instead of windows
05:50:26 <Gregor> pikhq: Yes. Yes it does. I haven't written it yet :P
05:50:57 <pikhq> Whoo.
05:51:37 <coppro> zzo38: not unique to Windows
05:53:38 <zzo38> coppro: You might be correct, of course. But I don't know much about others. I do know ALT+TAB is same in Ubuntu because that is what is used at Free Geek, and I sometimes volunteer there
05:54:02 <coppro> it is by default... but like almost all things Linux, it is configurable
05:55:27 <zzo38> It is probably the same so that if you used Windows, you would be able to do some things in same way. ALT+F4 is also same way in Ubuntu.
05:55:41 <zzo38> One thing that doesn't work the same however, is double-clicking the control box does not do the same way as Windows
05:56:12 <zzo38> (But if I use Linux on my own computer, it would be my own distribution anyways and would be different)
05:56:27 <coppro> zzo38: are you sure you aren't alise?
05:56:45 <Gregor> Of course, Mac OS Xasperating has ⌘-tab switch between PROGRAMS, and ⌘-backtick switch between windows WITHIN a program, which is godawful
05:56:46 <zzo38> coppro: I think so!
05:56:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:57:02 <Gregor> And I use ctrl-tab to switch between virtual desktops, and ctrl-pg{up,down} to switch tabs.
05:57:20 <zzo38> For sure I am not someone else other than who I am
05:57:40 <Gregor> Also, 1 = 1
05:57:46 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes
05:58:11 <zzo38> Did you think I am alise for some reason?
05:58:33 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: only because you defined it that way
05:59:15 <Gregor> *ahem*
05:59:39 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
05:59:41 <coppro> zzo38: "it would be my own distribution anyways"
05:59:48 <oerjan> coppro: zzo38 did the write-all-his-software-himself thing first, you know. alise just seems to have started copying him...
05:59:55 <coppro> oh
06:00:01 <coppro> I guess I fail then
06:00:07 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: for example, I think Double x = 1.0 is not equal to Double y = 1.0
06:00:17 <oerjan> or at least thinking a lot about it
06:00:29 <coppro> Mathnerd314: what are you talking about?
06:00:32 <Gregor> Mathnerd314: double x = the literal value 1.0 is equal to double y = the literal value 1.0
06:00:54 <Mathnerd314> yes, but with autoboxing you get different refernces
06:01:14 <Gregor> Mathnerd314: What sort of shitty system are you using that's boxing your numbers and not overloading ==?
06:01:21 <Mathnerd314> Java :p
06:01:26 <Gregor> Pfff.
06:01:26 <Gregor> Java
06:01:27 <Gregor> *hate*
06:02:07 <Mathnerd314> but, you agree 1 = 1 only in some cases
06:02:27 <Mathnerd314> other example: 1 meter != 1 second
06:02:40 <zzo38> In standard mathematics 1 = 1 is always, if using the standard definitions of the numbers and equals
06:03:14 <oerjan> well but mathematics is the king of overloading notation
06:03:16 <Mathnerd314> right - if you define it that way
06:03:37 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes it is, but only when it is the way to do so
06:03:40 <pikhq> Or if they want to fuck with you.
06:04:46 <oerjan> although normally you'd try to avoid using notation that breaks something as fundamental as x = x
06:04:50 * Mathnerd314 sees bad images in his head
06:07:00 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: i'd suggest stopping whatever you're doing, then
06:07:15 <Mathnerd314> not thinking is hard :p
06:07:28 <oerjan> yes. yes it is.
06:07:32 <Gregor> Is the bad bad, or good bad?
06:07:36 <Gregor> Like, bad as in "naughty"?
06:07:40 <Gregor> Because that's all good times.
06:08:01 <Mathnerd314> good bad, I guess
06:08:39 <oerjan> Mathnerd314: let me guess, pikhq's comment made you apply rule 34 to the number 34.
06:08:48 <Mathnerd314> yeah
06:08:57 <Mathnerd314> something like that
06:09:14 <Sgeo_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgo0CDL6bd0
06:09:33 <zzo38> What is rule 34
06:09:50 <Gregor> Hahaha
06:09:51 * Gregor runs away
06:09:56 <Sgeo_> If it exists, there is porn of it.
06:10:03 * Sgeo_ wonders what IRC porn looks like
06:10:12 <Gregor> See #asciipr0n
06:10:38 <zzo38> O, there is porn of porn.
06:10:49 <zzo38> And also porn of rule 34.
06:10:52 <Sgeo_> I said IRC porn. As in porn involving the protocol itself somehow, and not just porn transmitted via the protocol. Porn OF the protocol
06:11:00 <zzo38> Well, I don't watch pornography
06:11:14 <Gregor> Yet more evidence that you're not human :P
06:11:15 <oerjan> oh, NICK me baby
06:11:32 <Gregor> oerjan: Ooooh, that's hot.
06:11:33 <zzo38> Gregor: Do you mean me?
06:11:41 <Gregor> oerjan: I can't stop the \x01ACTION
06:12:00 <pikhq> zzo38: Very well-known that you aren't human.
06:12:22 <pikhq> But rather a species which is equally capable of communicating in English on IRC.
06:12:52 <zzo38> pikhq: No, I am human. (My D&D character isn't (neither is the paper in the printer), but that's irrelevant.)
06:13:02 <Gregor> A conversation I had a while ago: "My temporary apartment has a 30" TV with DVI, so I figured out how to use it as a monitor for my computer!" "Please tell me the first thing you did was watch porn on it." "I would deny it, but your clairvoyance is hilarious."
06:13:40 <Gregor> Gee using " to mean "inches" in the middle of a quote is really confusing :P
06:14:26 <Mathnerd314> '' looks just like "?
06:14:48 <Gregor> Are you supposed to use ''?
06:15:17 <Mathnerd314> I think so; it's "double prime"
06:15:40 <Gregor> Is "3 double prime" really the same as "3 inches" ...
06:16:33 <Mathnerd314> 3 inches, 3 seconds... I think that's it
06:16:40 <Mathnerd314> (according to Wikipedia)
06:16:47 <Sgeo_> Hm, if ASCII didn't have " as a single character, what would C-like languages look like?
06:16:49 <Gregor> *brain axplote*
06:16:59 <Gregor> Sgeo_: Quite similar I imagine.
06:17:22 <Sgeo_> How would strings and characters be quoted?
06:17:36 <Mathnerd314> they'd just use single quotes for all of them :p
06:17:43 <Gregor> Probably strings would be in '' and characters would have some special notation, maybe $c
06:18:09 <Mathnerd314> or they'd use trigraphs *shudder*
06:18:14 <Gregor> I doubt they would have quoted characters if not for an abundance of available quotish characters.
06:18:53 <oerjan> Gregor: double prime means second division, more or less. (minuta secunda)
06:22:50 <Mathnerd314> btw, I need something to do over the summer
06:22:55 <Mathnerd314> ideas?
06:23:01 <Sgeo_> Mathnerd314, job
06:23:02 <Sgeo_> classes
06:23:10 <Gregor> Develop a Scottish accent.
06:23:11 <Sgeo_> volunteer work
06:23:23 <oerjan> learn a silly walk.
06:24:00 <Mathnerd314> job - don't need one
06:24:17 <Mathnerd314> classes - going to a camp (that only lasts 6 weeks)
06:24:34 <Mathnerd314> accent - no idea of how to get one :p
06:24:53 <Sgeo_> "don't need one" is irrelevant. It gives you something to do
06:24:59 <Sgeo_> That's why I'm job hunting
06:25:00 <Gregor> "Develop", not "acquire" :P
06:25:31 <Mathnerd314> well, I don't think I can get a job
06:26:37 * Mathnerd314 googles to figure out what oerjan means
06:26:54 <pikhq> Mathnerd314: Monty Python.
06:33:48 <Mathnerd314> hmm, I already have some funny walks
06:33:58 <Mathnerd314> *silly
06:34:15 <oerjan> well get a stipend to develop them, then
06:34:30 <Mathnerd314> mostly from http://xkcd.com/245/ and variants
06:37:37 <Mathnerd314> oerjan: what is it with everyone's obsession with money?
06:37:39 <zzo38> What is the factorial of the factorial of one half?
06:37:59 <oerjan> zzo38: look up gamma function
06:38:33 * Mathnerd314 asks wolfram|alpha
06:38:46 <Mathnerd314> 0.9571218...
06:39:04 <Gregor> With money you can buy happiness, no matter what all those la-dee-da imbeciles may think to the contrary.
06:39:15 <zzo38> I know gamma function I saw in Wikipedia
06:39:28 <zzo38> When I found the article for "Factorial"
06:39:36 <zzo38> But it didn't tell me the answer
06:39:40 * oerjan recalls a relevant mafalda cartoon
06:39:53 <zzo38> Because I am unsure how to calculate that equation
06:40:10 <oerjan> zzo38: i don't know how to easily calculate it, it requires integration or something...
06:40:34 <oerjan> and it isn't afaik built into haskell, which is my default calculator these days
06:40:35 <zzo38> Yes, it is integration and that is why I don't know how to calcualte it
06:40:52 <oerjan> zzo38: numerically, i presume
06:41:26 <Mathnerd314> zzo38: ask wolfram|alpha, like I said: 0.9571218476267359902553835494511485301623742526696566054995...
06:41:29 <oerjan> or there may be a faster algorithm than going via the integral for all i know
06:43:04 <zzo38> Do you know the exact value (according to symbols such as square root, pi, e, etc)?
06:43:24 <Mathnerd314> no; it's not an elementary function AFAIK
06:43:53 <zzo38> But it says it is sqrt(pi)/2 for (0.5)! on Wikipedia
06:44:44 <oerjan> zzo38: there _might_ be an exact formula for (0.5)!, but that only generalizes to numbers of the form n + 1/2
06:45:20 <oerjan> and sqrt(pi)/2 itself is transcendental, so taking the factorial of _that_ is unlikely to be nice
06:46:02 <zzo38> I tried using nInt command on TI-92, but it is slow. It does give a answer which is close to the correct one, but only in approximate form (and even the decimal places it does give is slightly wrong)
06:46:06 <zzo38> (Even for integers)
06:46:54 <oerjan> zzo38: there almost certainly isn't a much simpler general formula than the usual integral, or else it would have been listed
06:47:40 <zzo38> Yes
06:48:40 -!- augur has joined.
06:50:56 <Gregor> Now, time for a delicious pastrami reuben!
06:51:17 <pikhq> God dammit that sentence is making me hungry.
06:52:29 <zzo38> I read Road to Reality, it is clear how to do things like e^(d/dx) and how to put a matrix in the exponent, and so on
06:53:11 <Gregor> pikhq: On dark rye bread, hot
06:54:05 <Mathnerd314> it's been a while since I've had a reuben... sauerkraut + meat + bread, right?
06:54:18 <pikhq> Basically.
06:54:33 <Gregor> Plus Russian/thousand island dressing and swiss cheese (but not for me)
06:54:56 <Gregor> And not just any meat and bread.
06:55:27 <Gregor> The meat has to be cured beef, e.g. pastrami or corned beef.
06:55:31 <Gregor> The bread has to be rye.
06:55:46 <Gregor> No other combination is a true reuben :)
06:56:33 <pikhq> Quite true.
06:56:55 <Mathnerd314> why is it that describing food makes me want to eat it? :p
06:57:59 <Mathnerd314> no, like... you read a menu, you want to order something
06:58:59 <Mathnerd314> you pass a restaurant, your stomach growls
06:59:02 <Gregor> Incidentally, I am eating this Reuben with a Sangria (sin alcohol), which is a surprisingly good combination.
07:01:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
07:06:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
07:09:23 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: reset).
07:15:05 * Mathnerd314 randomlu looks up some ip addresses
07:20:03 * Mathnerd314 listens to the crickets chirp
07:31:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Do you like(etc) Spider Tarot?).
07:42:51 -!- uorygl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
07:43:08 -!- uorygl has joined.
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:05:18 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Quit: Bye).
08:17:39 -!- cal153 has joined.
08:19:02 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:19:25 <augur> Gregor: listening
08:22:13 <augur> Gregor: the stuff around 1:55 needs some reworking
08:23:26 <augur> and the rest like it. the first thing i would do is ditch the secondary high notes that come in at like 2:00 with the 6 note downward sequence
08:24:03 <augur> it just sounds weird..
08:24:37 <augur> secondly, change the high notes to something lower, i think, or something much higher. it sounds a bit honky tonky ish right now
08:25:10 <augur> well, no, just fuck around with that 6 note downward sequences really
08:25:17 <augur> everything in that area is weird
08:26:41 <augur> this song has quite an overtone of eh... how should i put it
08:26:45 <augur> insanity?
08:26:51 <augur> theres lots of tonal discord
08:31:13 <pikhq> I think that much is half the point.
08:32:19 <augur> yes, i like that mood. but i dont think it's as obvious as it should be, and i dont think the points i mentioned aid it
08:32:25 <augur> rather, i think they detract from it
08:40:20 * Sgeo_ kisses his anti-virus
08:42:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
08:58:01 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
09:27:02 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:39:58 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:03:45 -!- uorygl has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:04:02 -!- uorygl has joined.
10:17:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:23:32 -!- tombom has joined.
10:38:04 -!- kar8nga has joined.
10:54:36 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
11:04:05 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
11:11:59 -!- augur has joined.
11:16:16 -!- hiato has joined.
11:50:39 -!- gm|lap has quit (Quit: ilua).
11:50:46 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
11:53:47 -!- zzo38 has joined.
12:01:48 -!- alise has joined.
12:27:38 -!- marchdown has quit (Quit: marchdown).
12:33:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
12:40:49 <zzo38> Now I made implement Spider Tarot on PySol: http://sprunge.us/eKaJ
12:41:54 <zzo38> If you have PySol you can load this file
12:42:27 <alise> "As of 2004 any work on PySol has stopped, and PySol is officially discontinued."
12:42:54 <alise> Or do you mean http://pysolfc.sourceforge.net/?
12:42:55 <zzo38> It is PySol FanClub
12:43:01 <zzo38> It is what I mean
12:44:44 <alise> Too hot! Hoooly shit I cannot stand this weather
12:44:46 <alise> Bring back the rain
12:44:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
12:44:58 <alise> Apparently it's 23 degrees, bullshit, it's 25
12:45:11 <alise> zzo38: please tell me it's hot where you are too
12:45:17 <alise> otherwise i'll be uncontrollably jealous
12:45:34 <alise> :'(
12:45:48 <alise> I'm in Britain... you're MEANT to expect cold here
12:45:56 <alise> Why does it defy my expectations?! Why?
12:46:01 <zzo38> It is dark where I am
12:46:22 <zzo38> alise: I don't know why?
12:46:45 <alise> It's probably that evil weather.
12:47:26 <zzo38> I don't think the weather will be evil?
12:48:27 <alise> I can anthropomorphise it if I want, can't I?
12:48:47 <zzo38> You can if you want to
12:48:52 <alise> Then I shall
12:49:22 <zzo38> But you should remember what someone said (about something else): "Don't anthropomorphize computers, they don't like it."
12:50:20 <alise> Ha
12:50:30 <alise> I don't think the weather is a computer :P
12:50:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
12:50:48 <zzo38> Of course you are right. The quote is about something else like it says
12:50:59 <zzo38> It is like a joke
12:52:06 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't *think* the weather is a computer.
12:52:22 <Phantom_Hoover> That's what they want you to think.
12:53:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
12:54:10 <alise> zzo38: It's not like a joke, it is a joke.
12:54:14 <alise> Unless it's only a pseudo-joke :P
12:54:27 <alise> <alise> I don't think the weather is a computer :P <-- also a ojke
12:54:28 <alise> *joke
12:56:18 <Phantom_Hoover_> Aww, Martin Gardner died.
12:56:32 <alise> Oh!
12:56:36 <alise> No! That's so sad.
12:56:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
12:57:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
12:57:13 <alise> What a shame.
12:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> He was 90something, though.
12:59:44 <alise> Yeah, true.
12:59:50 <alise> He hasn't really done anything for decades, has he?
13:01:23 <zzo38> Other than write some book, I think.
13:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, http://twitter.com/thewub/status/14549831262
13:01:27 <zzo38> But not recently
13:02:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ha
13:02:11 <alise> When Conway dies:
13:02:31 <alise> "Okay, here's the deal. Name a game. We'll play. You win, you go to heaven. You lose, hell."
13:02:36 <alise> "The Game of Life."
13:02:44 <alise> [Death looks it up]
13:02:51 <alise> "HOW THE FUCK DO YOU WIN THIS THING???"
13:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's not even a game!"
13:03:09 <zzo38> And you can't lose either
13:03:09 <alise> "It has game in the name! How could it be more game-y?"
13:03:15 <alise> "You never said it had to be a 2-player game."
13:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> By letting you actually play it!
13:03:29 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a 0-player game.
13:03:42 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'm totally going for CoreWars.)
13:04:16 <alise> My question is: Can you just invent a game on the spot? What are the requirements for a game?
13:05:23 <Phantom_Hoover> There should at least be well-defined victory conditions.
13:05:42 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/5lFTN.jpg awwwwwwwwwwwww <3 nintendo.
13:05:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Victory conditions: "Whoever isn't Death wins."
13:05:56 <zzo38> I have once asked: If you have to play game against Death to survive, which one: Chess, Poker, Mahjong?
13:06:19 <alise> zzo38: Poker. I'm shitty at the other two games, so my best chance is to rely on luck.
13:06:41 <alise> If I could challenge him to a game of my choice, I think it'd be nomic.
13:06:50 <alise> That would be very interesting.
13:06:51 <zzo38> Here is another victory conditions: "Play any card. After one turn, the game is over. If you haven't played all the cards yet, the game is a draw and you have to start over again."
13:07:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:08:19 <zzo38> (You play with a deck of 52 cards (or 40 if you are Italian or Spanish), and after one card is played, that is one turn)
13:08:33 <alise> GAME RULES: The game must be played by a human, on Earth, in physical form, with a young body and a sharp mind, and Death, in his realm. The game ends whenever the player who is not Death writes a letter to Death at "Death / Hades" and pleads for him to make the game end; Death then wins. Death must not otherwise interact with the other player.
13:11:16 <alise> http://lair.fifthhorseman.net/~dkg/fonts/dkg-handwriting/jabberwocky.pdf ;; this is the first decent handwriting font i've seen.
13:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do you not need to handwrite?
13:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Need to lunch.
13:17:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why do I not need to handwrite what?
13:18:43 <alise> So, /me is trying a new organisational system for ~/ since the old one didn't work.
13:24:35 <alise> ~/downloads -- temporary downloads that I'm not going to futz with (things like little C programs I download do /not/ go here); should be emptied regularly
13:25:01 <alise> ~/research/YYYY-MM/ -- all sorts of crap I get from other people; source trees I want to compile, data files I want to play with, little C programs, etc.
13:25:19 <alise> ~/work/YYYY-MM/[project/] -- stuff i make.
13:25:31 <alise> The old system was just ~/Downloads and ~/code basically.
13:26:34 <alise> Wow, someone claimed that "grammer" was American English, while "grammar" was British English.
13:26:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Where?
13:27:37 <alise> http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/c750w/11_year_old_girl_writes_to_nintendo_as_part_of_a/c0qkq8q?context=1
13:27:55 <alise> I like the new Ubuntu release
13:28:29 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it was evil.
13:29:45 <alise> Did I say that?
13:29:54 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
13:29:55 <alise> It probably did something baaaaaaaaad. But it's not doing anything baaaaaaaaad right now.
13:29:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh.
13:30:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well you're wrong then.
13:30:08 <alise> Oh, you mean that other person
13:30:11 <alise> Who said it was evil
13:30:16 <alise> Right, they are wrong. They just have an extreme aversion to purple clearly
13:32:32 <zzo38> I know what it did wrong (I had experience with it at Free Geek): The default is nc -q 0
13:33:21 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
13:35:27 <alise> zzo38: What's wrong with -q 0?
13:35:37 <alise> -q after EOF on stdin, wait the specified number of seconds and then
13:35:38 <alise> quit. If seconds is negative, wait forever.
13:35:38 <alise> Ah
13:35:42 <alise> But what's wrong with that?
13:35:46 <alise> There's no EOF in network protocols
13:35:48 <alise> so it wouldn't have any other use
13:36:15 <zzo38> It should be the default -q -1
13:36:32 <zzo38> A few people has filed this as a bug report
13:36:42 <zzo38> But it is easy to fix any script that uses it
13:37:03 <alise> Why -q 1?
13:37:11 <alise> https://chrome.google.com/extensions/img/mikdfeaeaecoffpjoodiihgejnbfigln/1274222031.11/screenshot_big/1001?hl=en-us ;; Huh, you can make Chrome look native on Linux now
13:37:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:37:39 <Phantom_Hoover> That's always been possible.
13:37:58 <Phantom_Hoover> At least since 9.10.
13:38:57 <zzo38> Because -q -1 is negative it wait forever, which is the function in olderversions as well as in other distributions
13:39:29 <alise> zzo38: But WHY should it be like that?
13:39:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it looked ugly :)
13:40:13 <alise> Anyway, this one is a proper theme and evrything.
13:40:15 <alise> *everything
13:41:01 <alise> Hmm, Chromium doesn't haev the window border.
13:41:47 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
13:41:54 <alise> Maybe I need Chrome instead.
13:42:48 <zzo38> alise: I think default should be wait forever because sometimes the protocol is not finished yet!
13:43:06 <alise> zzo38: Ah, you mean like if ^D is used in the protocol?
13:43:22 <alise> I don't think you should use ^D in the protocol for the same reason you shouldn't use ^C: it's taken for metapurposes!
13:43:57 <zzo38> alise: That's one purpose. But the other purpose is things like: echo aboutgophserv | nc zzo38computer.cjb.net 70
13:44:37 <alise> zzo38: Good point. Okay, then, I agree with you.
13:45:34 <alise> Ah, there, now the window shadow is back.
13:46:19 -!- AnMaster has joined.
13:46:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Why was it gone?
13:46:53 <AnMaster> so, now I have znc up and running on my desktop
13:46:54 <AnMaster> yay
13:47:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Using the non-native title bar.
13:49:20 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/LWc8g.png ;; here's what it looks like now
13:51:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
13:52:37 <alise> Ahh Chrome is a nice browser; think I'll use it.
13:53:58 -!- ws has joined.
13:54:58 <alise> hi ws
13:55:02 <alise> are you whitespace?
14:02:33 <alise> -- The following will find the recursive form definition of the fibonacci function from its closed-form solution.
14:02:34 <alise> init075 -- The problem is tough, so you should be prepared to resort whatever measure you can take!
14:02:34 <alise> printAny (f -> all (n -> (f :: Int->Int) n == let phi = (1 + sqrt 5)/2 in round ((phi^n - (1-phi)^n) / sqrt 5) ) [0..9])
14:02:37 <alise> MagicHaskeller: http://nautilus.cs.miyazaki-u.ac.jp/~skata/MagicHaskeller.html
14:02:41 <alise> It fucking writes progams for you!
14:02:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:02:56 <alise> WTF
14:10:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:10:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:22:23 <alise> I can't et it to compile :(
14:27:47 <alise> http://vpri.org/pov/
14:27:54 <alise> NO! Out of stock!
14:27:57 <alise> Want! Fucking want now!
14:28:07 <alise> Sadness... overwhelming...
14:28:16 <alise> :P
14:29:07 <ws> R.I.P. Martin Gardner :-(
14:29:13 <alise> ws: yeah
14:29:15 <alise> Sad.
14:34:24 <alise> p yiff-server - Y Sound Server
14:34:40 <alise> Yup... just your average, every day yiff server.
14:43:19 <alise> [["Child pornography is great," the speaker at the podium declared enthusiastically. "It is great because politicians understand child pornography. By playing that card, we can get them to act, and start blocking sites. And once they have done that, we can get them to start blocking file sharing sites".]]
15:01:02 <alise> Hey, I got quoted twice in one Haskell Weekly News in 2009.
15:01:03 <alise> ehird: 2009: The Year of the Combinatorial Explosion of Haskell Web Frameworks. Also, the Linux Desktop.
15:01:04 <alise> ehird: [on the previous quote] Someone re-remember that quote when lambdabot's back so I don't have to and thereby look egotistical, thanks
15:01:06 <alise> ego++
15:16:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:17:32 -!- ws has quit (Quit: ...).
15:18:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:23:37 * alise gives DDG a go.
15:24:48 -!- augur has joined.
15:31:07 * alise invents yet another wiki format because he can.
15:31:09 <alise> I has the powah
15:37:45 <pikhq> Vejn.
15:39:36 <alise> pikhq: Njev?
15:41:27 <alise> pikhq: Ya what now :|
15:42:46 <pikhq> Something or othere.
15:42:56 <pikhq> Also, your mother.
15:45:29 <pikhq> It is 9:45. Why am I up this early?
15:45:33 <pikhq> I went to bed at 3.
15:46:00 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
15:46:19 <oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster.
15:52:58 <alise> pikhq: who knows.
15:53:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Eek, a black hole!).
16:06:57 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
16:10:01 <alise> I wonder why nobody's invented this particular blend of formatting language before.
16:15:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:33:19 -!- Portponky has joined.
16:40:17 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:41:14 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:41:39 <Portponky> hi
16:42:52 -!- alise has joined.
16:56:08 -!- lament has joined.
17:01:00 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
17:03:04 <alise> I just realised I ran out of programming languages to use
17:03:04 <alise> shit
17:04:23 <AnMaster> `addquote <oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster.
17:04:27 <HackEgo> 162|<oerjan> insufficient time dilation. try running faster.
17:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> m4?
17:07:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Assembly?
17:10:20 <alise> No :P
17:11:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, for what?
17:13:53 <alise> Anything.
17:13:58 <alise> Anything.
17:15:13 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:15:58 <Mathnerd314> alise: ATS?
17:16:08 <Phantom_Hoover> APL?
17:16:17 <Mathnerd314> s/APL/J/
17:16:30 <alise> Ooh, ATS!
17:16:32 <alise> That language is fun.
17:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> A+? (Which is GPLed)
17:16:39 <alise> Mathnerd314: Hey now, nothing wrong with APL -- I do like J though
17:16:59 <Mathnerd314> J *is* APL :p
17:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought it cost MONEY.
17:18:21 <alise> No.
17:18:23 <alise> It's just not open source.
17:18:29 <alise> It's a wonderful language, though.
17:18:43 <alise> Mathnerd314: Well, it's the Unofficial Sequel.
17:18:59 <alise> From some of the members of the production team who brought you "APL"...
17:19:26 <alise> I cannot believe I've stopped using Google.
17:19:48 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
17:19:56 <alise> Mathnerd314: Wait, no, J was the same guy as APL.
17:20:07 <alise> Mixed up J and K's histories there, I think. Except I knew K was unofficial.
17:20:13 <alise> Maybe I mixed up J and A+ or something.
17:21:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:21:10 -!- MigoMipo__ has joined.
17:23:51 -!- MigoMipo__ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
17:24:22 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
17:27:04 <alise> By the way, using Parsec for something that's meant to accept any and all input is not wise.
17:27:08 <alise> It does not like forgivingness.
17:28:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:30:35 <pikhq> No, it just does error messages.
17:31:30 <alise> I'm not even trying to parse something insanely difficult.
17:31:36 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
17:32:29 <alise> tag := '{' name [spaces node+] '}'; name := !(spaces | '{' | '}') text := anything; node := tag | text
17:32:41 <alise> If a tag doesn't match -- e.g. {} -- then it falls through to the everything-accepting text.
17:32:42 -!- wareya has joined.
17:32:50 <alise> Challenge: Parse this without the code looking like an ugly piece of shit.
17:33:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
17:35:46 <alise> pikhq: Think I should just write a custom parser?
17:38:46 <Quadrescence> Using haskell for anything is not wise
17:39:30 <pikhq> Quadrescence: Bullshit.
17:39:42 <alise> Quadrescence: Actually I've tried the same thing in other languages and so far the code is more verbose.
17:39:43 <pikhq> alise: Yeah; that's not exactly playing to Parsec's strengths there.
17:39:55 <Quadrescence> Use C.
17:39:56 <Quadrescence> :))))))
17:40:02 <alise> Quadrescence: No. :)^n
17:43:09 <Quadrescence> alise: Or use SML. :D
17:43:24 <alise> pikhq: OTOH, this parser is a bitch to write by hand because of all the little fiddly fallthroughs.
17:43:25 <alise> Ugh.
17:43:30 <alise> Quadrescence: "Meh".
17:43:38 <Quadrescence> Hey you should love SML
17:43:41 <alise> I do!
17:43:48 <Quadrescence> Good! :)))
17:43:49 <alise> I just don't think it's particularly suited to this problem any more than Haskell.
17:43:58 <alise> Someone who likes SML but not Haskell is a bit silly. Maybe you dislike the Haskell hype, community or libraries... but the actual language is fairly benign.
17:44:03 <alise> I agree that most Haskellers don't know what they're doing.
17:44:11 <alise> And it's a flawed language.
17:44:14 <Quadrescence> alise: That is mostly true.
17:44:41 <Quadrescence> Deep deep down a lot of Haskell I don't have a problem with, strictly as a language. Of course it has its quirks and flaws but so does every language.
17:44:55 <Quadrescence> (except the one I'm designing)
17:45:03 <Quadrescence> (of course)
17:45:23 <alise> Haha, don't be silly. My languages are the flawless ones.
17:45:36 <Quadrescence> alise: Your languages aren't even computable!!
17:45:49 <alise> THAT MAY BE TRUE :P
17:45:53 -!- ws has joined.
17:45:54 <alise> Quadrescence: Hey now some of them are
17:45:56 <alise> SOME of them!
17:50:30 -!- Gregor-L has joined.
17:50:50 <alise> pikhq: Pretty sure I could do this better; this whole snippet /just/ parses a tag name: http://pastie.org/973478.txt?key=qybxeu7xoift2bcwzlqhya :P
17:51:28 <alise> And the tag parser itself is going to have to handle finding 3 metric fucktons of text and then realising it's unbalanced and so shooting it off as text
17:51:42 <alise> Maybe "{foo abc" should parse as the tag {foo abc} instead of the text "{foo abc".
17:52:00 <alise> OTOH, you could have ridiculous things like the whole thing being snarfed up into a table like that.
17:52:27 <Quadrescence> 3 metric fucktons
17:52:39 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
17:52:57 <alise> Yes; it's slightly less than 3 regular fucktons.
18:01:29 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
18:03:47 -!- hiato has joined.
18:05:07 <alise> Gawd, you really wouldn't think...parsing...would be so hard.
18:08:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:08:49 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
18:11:26 <alise> pikhq: Library idea: You feed it a parser description, and it outputs a parser that "patches things up" so that it accepts any input at all.
18:11:32 <alise> With customisable parameters for how it should handle certain invalid texts.
18:14:22 <Gregor-L> <augur> and the rest like it. the first thing i would do is ditch the secondary high notes that come in at like 2:00 with the 6 note downward sequence // hahah, well this is definitely not happening :P
18:22:38 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:27:41 <alise> http://lmddgtfy.com/?q=printf
18:53:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Toasted marshmallows are the nicest thing ever.
18:53:46 <alise> comex: do you just use your reddit account for promoting the iphone over android :P
18:55:32 <comex> alise: did you know that on OS X, both Flash and the HTML5 player are glacial for 720p, but QuickTime plays it fine; but hopefully the new API for H.264 decoding will be supported soon by one of them, unless Google decides to forcibly serve WebM?
18:55:39 <comex> just wondering :(
18:56:02 <alise> comex: that... your sentence doesn't even parse
18:56:31 <pikhq> comex: Could you sound any more like a valley girl?
18:56:54 <comex> see, all I want is to watch a damn video
18:57:27 <pikhq> And h264 is terrible for that while software patents exist.
18:57:40 <pikhq> Though, while software patents exist *it is effectively illegal to program*.
18:57:58 <alise> comex: I suggest using Linux -- then you're not surprised by breakage.
18:58:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:59:20 <comex> alise: well
18:59:26 <comex> even Linux has that nvidia H264 acceleration thingy
18:59:27 <comex> vdpau
18:59:40 <alise> yeah but we generally don't install things, the smart of us anyway
18:59:50 <alise> this is okay, we can deal with this, we don't feel like we need to break things right now...
18:59:57 <alise> this is just fine, we don't need to watch online videos anyway.
18:59:58 <pikhq> And it is used illegally most of the time.
18:59:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:00:36 <pikhq> I think Flash has the only legal h264 decoder for Linux.
19:00:52 <pikhq> Well. Legal as far as we know.
19:00:56 <comex> nah, isn't H.264 officially free for web video?
19:01:03 <alise> not that i know of.
19:01:11 <alise> and creating it by anyone without a license will become illegal Real Soon Now
19:01:14 <alise> so, have fun with that.
19:01:17 <pikhq> You do not currently have to pay a license fee for streaming.
19:01:25 <comex> and that's for at least 5 years
19:01:39 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined.
19:01:42 <pikhq> Decoding requires a license. Encoding for *most* purposes requires a license.
19:01:54 <pikhq> (basically anything but home video creation)
19:02:04 <alise> home video creation will become illegal without a license soon iirc
19:02:07 <alise> something or other expires.
19:02:21 <pikhq> alise: They extended the *promise not to sue*.
19:02:22 <comex> "On February 2, 2010 MPEG LA announced that H.264-encoded Internet Video that is free to end users would continue to be exempt from royalty fees until at least December 31, 2015.[11] However, other fees remain in place. The license terms are updated in 5-year blocks.[12]"
19:02:30 <comex> anyway
19:02:32 <comex> it doesn't matter!
19:02:51 <pikhq> comex: All of this only applies to the patents in the MPEG LA patent pool.
19:02:59 <pikhq> It is always possible for there to be a patent outside of it.
19:03:07 <comex> yeah, then you can sue the world
19:03:12 <comex> because by 2015 (really, by 2011 most likely) there will be more widespread support for VP8, hopefully
19:03:21 <comex> even though the x264 guy says VP8 sucks
19:03:46 <comex> then apple will support it in another 10 years
19:03:47 <pikhq> VP8 almost certainly violates patents. There do not exist nontrivial programs that don't, at this rate.
19:03:54 <pikhq> There's fucking patents on linked lists.
19:03:59 <pikhq> Linked. Lists.
19:04:29 <comex> lists that have multiple links in order to be traversed in multiple ways
19:04:38 <comex> of course, that patent is probably invalid and wouldn't stand up in court
19:05:19 <pikhq> Big deal. US court system means that a party without a lot of money loses by default.
19:05:45 <alise> dark shikari is cool
19:05:52 <alise> but i don't think he cares about the legal implications of ... anything...
19:05:57 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
19:08:06 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
19:08:40 <comex> alise: I believe he lives in a country where he doesn't have to
19:08:51 <alise> "believe"? :-)
19:09:21 <pikhq> comex: As x264 does not do binary releases, they barely get around US patent laws.
19:09:26 <pikhq> *Barely*.
19:09:53 <pikhq> Since it's not compiled, they've not actually implemented the patent, merely written a description of the patent.
19:09:55 <alise> My point is that using x264 is only practical for those doing illegal things anyway -- like making encodings of TV shows.
19:10:01 <pikhq> US patent law is fucking retarded.
19:10:05 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
19:10:24 <alise> pikhq: What if they shipped it with a compiler binary and a program that would run the compiler on any source files in its vicinity?
19:10:37 <alise> Compiler: legal, obviously; program that runs a compiler no matter where it is: legal, obviously; description: legal.
19:10:40 <alise> Sum: legal?
19:10:50 <pikhq> alise: Whether or not you would win that case is a function of how much money you have to blow.
19:11:04 -!- kar8nga has joined.
19:11:15 <pikhq> No, seriously.
19:11:18 <alise> Is it technically legal, though?
19:11:28 <pikhq> *I don't know*.
19:11:32 <alise> No component is illegal -- does the whole thing constitute an implementation? Nobody says you have to run the compiler script.
19:11:33 <alise> pikhq: lol :P
19:12:18 <pikhq> It may be perfectly clear. It may be an implementation. The script *itself* might violate a patent on automating compilation of a program.
19:12:52 <pikhq> It is, in short, impossible to know if any program is legal.
19:30:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, one could argue that the binary file is a bunch of perfectly legal bits stuck together.
19:33:31 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
19:33:56 <alise> 1 is illegal but 0 is okay
19:39:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:39:10 <alise> BLARGH SOFTWARE SUCKS
19:39:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything sucks.
19:47:27 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
19:47:46 <alise> Aieee.
19:47:49 <alise> I'm pinged.
19:47:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You'd know har har
19:47:56 <alise> Ahem
19:47:58 <alise> Stay classy, alise
19:48:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:48:33 <Rugxulo> alise: two links for you
19:48:36 <Rugxulo> http://www.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?QBFORTH
19:48:49 <Rugxulo> http://www.staticramlinux.com/
19:49:06 <Gregor-L> H.264 is a suckfest.
19:49:10 <Gregor-L> And not the good kind.
19:49:16 <alise> Gregor-L: Legally, yes; but technically?
19:49:19 <alise> It's certainly superior to Theora.
19:49:24 <Gregor-L> Technically it's friggin' amazing.
19:49:30 <alise> Yeah.
19:49:30 <Rugxulo> actually, here's another: http://sta.li/
19:49:37 <alise> Rugxulo: I know of sta.li; I'm a fan of the suckless guys.
19:49:43 <Rugxulo> what, haven't heard of WebM yet?
19:49:50 <Gregor-L> sta.li/n
19:49:51 <Rugxulo> alise, I thought so, just making sure
19:49:58 <alise> Rugxulo: Mm.
19:50:00 <alise> Gregor-L: We need to assrape the H.264 owners until they decide to open it up :P
19:50:11 <alise> Isn't WebM based on VP8-- yep
19:50:14 <alise> Sucks
19:50:22 <Rugxulo> VP8 + Matroska + Theora
19:50:28 <Gregor-L> <alise> Gregor-L: We need to assrape the H.264 owners until they decide to open it up :P // I like this no matter WHAT context you interpret it in!
19:50:31 <Rugxulo> oops, Vorbis
19:50:33 <Rugxulo> (sorry)
19:50:48 <alise> Gregor-L: We did not need to know that ... but when will the fanfiction be done?
19:51:13 <alise> Rugxulo: Hey, that QBFORTH was written by our very own zzo38!
19:51:24 <alise> Link to his journal is broken though.
19:51:28 * Gregor-L applauds
19:51:49 <alise> Gregor-L: What, exactly, are you apploading :P
19:51:53 <alise> *applauding?
19:52:20 <Gregor-L> zzo38 :P
19:52:32 <Rugxulo> alise: argh! that link worked for me
19:52:35 <Rugxulo> the other day, I mean
19:52:45 <Rugxulo> he even compiled it, too (QB4.5)
19:52:54 <alise> Gregor-L: Does zzo38 just generate an applaudy reaction in you?
19:52:57 <Rugxulo> funny curiosity, even if I don't really know Forth ;-)
19:53:03 <Gregor-L> alise: No, just the way you said it :P
19:53:13 <Gregor-L> Like he was about to come out on stage and take a bow.
19:53:31 <alise> He seems to have deleted or at least elided the entry from his journal.
19:53:37 <alise> Either that or the file disappeared.
19:53:55 <alise> Gregor-L: By our very own.... ZEEED ZED OHHH (thirtyeight)!
19:53:55 * Rugxulo having internet woes
19:54:02 <alise> /music
19:54:07 <Gregor-L> EXACTLY
19:54:38 <Rugxulo> http://rapidshare.com/files/390783825/qbforth.zip.html
19:54:38 <Rugxulo> MD5: 9BAE75C6AB6AF45949BE9262350A36EE
19:54:43 <Rugxulo> there :-P
19:54:43 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
19:55:10 <Rugxulo> actually, there's a Perl Forth, a Bash Forth, so it's not that odd ;-)
19:56:29 <alise> In the tradition of promoting redditor-run sites that try to do the same thing as existing sites but that don't suck: http://filevo.com/
19:57:01 <Rugxulo> huh, Forthfreak wiki lets you upload, interesting
20:00:01 <Rugxulo> gah, my wifi connection keeps flaking out
20:00:40 <Rugxulo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webm
20:01:37 <alise> The only issue is that VP8 sucks balls... and is also patented
20:01:48 <alise> It's just that the H.264 guys are more open about their patents :P
20:02:02 <pikhq> alise: Only in comparison to H.264.
20:02:14 <pikhq> Which is the best video compression format in existence...
20:02:20 <alise> Apart from the lossless ones!
20:02:29 <pikhq> Best lossy one.
20:02:32 <Rugxulo> Theora and WebM can't both be patented, how can MPEG-LA have a patent on every video format ever to exist??
20:02:46 -!- coppro has joined.
20:02:55 <pikhq> Rugxulo: MPEG-LA probably doesn't have all the patents that apply to H.264.
20:02:57 <alise> Rugxulo: It's not just MPEG-LA.
20:03:05 <alise> the patents on VP8 are well-known iirc
20:03:09 <pikhq> Just the ones that are being claimed to apply to H.264 in public.
20:03:29 * Rugxulo wants to force everyone to go back to VIC-20 times, suffer with only 3.5k of RAM, then when they get tired of that, to decide whether they want to play fairly or not
20:03:34 <pikhq> alise: No, the only ones confirmed are ones that Google has granted a royalty-free license for.
20:03:58 <pikhq> Though MPEG-LA *is* busy going "What a lovely codec you have there. Wouldn't it be a shame if something were to... Happen to it?"
20:04:34 <Rugxulo> it's crazy, we live in a Linux world with lots of openness ... and yet other people are still crazy as loons
20:04:36 <alise> I read that in Snape's voice -- theory -- MPEG-LA is Snape.
20:04:43 <alise> Harry Potter is a metaphor for video encoding, and software patents.
20:04:49 <Rugxulo> have they learned nothing? (apparently)
20:04:49 <pikhq> alise: Should've been a mobster voice.
20:04:53 <alise> I don't know how Voldemort is.
20:05:20 <alise> Speaking of Linux, Ubuntu 10.04 is nice!
20:05:47 <Rugxulo> patents are worse than just being proprietary!
20:05:47 <Rugxulo> it's one thing to not share, it's another to prevent completely independent works to exist
20:05:47 <Rugxulo> audio works okay?
20:06:07 <Rugxulo> haven't tried it, heard some stuff is better but some regressions still exist
20:06:52 <alise> I think audio should work fine but I don't hae speakers in
20:06:57 <alise> It registers volume and everything
20:07:07 <Rugxulo> there are still many PulseAudio haters
20:07:09 <alise> The new themes finally make the thing look half-decent which is nice
20:07:15 <alise> Rugxulo: yeah you can just uninstall it if you don't like it
20:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> It works fine for me.
20:07:17 <alise> but i really don't care
20:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Audio, that is.
20:07:26 <alise> the thing i do hate is that flash video/audio is desynched
20:07:36 <alise> this may be pulseaudio, or the fact that the plugin is 32-bit and my install is 64-bit
20:07:36 <alise> not sure
20:07:38 <alise> it's annoying though
20:07:42 <alise> pulseaudio is quite high latency iirc so...
20:09:46 <Rugxulo> startup speed is better, no?
20:10:16 <alise> much better to login screen -- there is a quite large lag of nothing happening between logging in to desktop, but that constitutes the entire log in time, so maybe it is just delaying showing it
20:10:19 <alise> and this machine is old and futzy anyway
20:10:23 <alise> so i wouldn't rely on its experiences
20:12:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
20:26:36 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:26:53 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
20:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Bleugh, broken links.
20:29:51 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:32:25 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:33:40 <alise> Roken blinks.
20:36:38 <pikhq> "Jim Davis has stated that he created Garfield with the sole intention of making money. He decided to create a strip that would be popular with the masses, in order to be commercially successful."
20:36:49 <pikhq> Well done.
20:37:20 <alise> Hah.
20:37:34 <ais523> and why not?
20:37:47 <alise> ais523: he's single-handedly lowered the quality of comics!
20:38:11 <pikhq> Have you ever *read* Garfield?
20:38:28 <pikhq> It's pretty amazingly poor.
20:38:31 <alise> Also, hi ais523!
20:38:39 <alise> Don't go appearing like that without me knowing!
20:38:39 <ais523> yep, haven't seen you for ages
20:38:44 <ais523> probably due to missing each other
20:38:48 <alise> Wait, you haven't joined in...
20:38:51 <alise> How long have you been here? :P
20:38:56 <alise> Ah, there.
20:39:01 <alise> ais523: any news?
20:39:12 <ais523> surprisingly little
20:39:17 <ais523> I've been to Canada and back
20:39:37 <ais523> then spent a week alternately asleep and preparing for the Pokémon World Championship qualifiers
20:39:42 <ais523> because they're in Birmingham this year
20:39:54 <ais523> and, I mean, how hard can it be?
20:40:33 <pikhq> Card game or video game?
20:40:39 <ais523> video game
20:40:47 <pikhq> You're going to get schooled.
20:40:59 <ais523> pikhq: heh, I was 6th in the world on the online practice simulator for a while
20:41:11 <pikhq> Tournament Pokemon players take the game to fairly absurd heights.
20:41:15 <ais523> I know
20:41:28 <ais523> so I just had to come up with something even more absurd
20:41:49 <pikhq> Such as spending hundreds of hours to maximise the stats on your team?
20:41:56 <ais523> hundreds?
20:42:03 <ais523> it's taken me about 5 so far
20:42:06 <ais523> with only one member to go
20:42:14 <pikhq> You've not maximised the stats.
20:42:16 <ais523> (hint: the Pokémon RNG has been broken for a couple of years)
20:42:20 <ais523> yes I have
20:42:29 <pikhq> Oh, it was broken? Okay, that changes things.
20:42:45 <ais523> it's a pain trying to get the timings /just right/
20:42:57 <ais523> but if you keep trying, you can hit a 1/60 second interval after about an hour of trying
20:42:58 <pikhq> You've got *a good chance* of getting schooled, then.
20:43:42 <pikhq> Keep in mind, you're playing against the kind of guys who come up with ways to have omnipotence in D&D.
20:44:01 <ais523> pikhq: I know at least 3 of said guys
20:44:18 <ais523> and at least 2 of said methods, although not in detail
20:44:18 <pikhq> Then you have a clue what you're getting into, then.
20:44:22 <ais523> yes
20:44:24 <ais523> I do
20:44:29 <ais523> just I like to act like a noob because it's funny
20:44:43 <pikhq> Which leaves me with one last piece of advice, then.
20:44:49 <pikhq> Good luck.
20:44:50 <pikhq> :)
20:45:00 <ais523> thanks
20:45:41 <ais523> (did you know that the second turn of drowning in D&D sets your hitpoints to 0? it's the only known way to recover from minus arbitrarily large HP in the turn you have before dying, and part of one of the omnipotence combos)
20:46:47 <coppro> haha
20:48:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume this omnipotence is a closely guarded secret.
20:48:25 <coppro> not really
20:48:52 <Phantom_Hoover> I must just suck at Google, then.
20:48:57 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: It's called Pun-Pun.
20:48:59 <ais523> the other method I know involves a kobold build that can transform into a kobold with slightly better stats, which can transform into a kobold with slightly better stats...
20:49:01 <ais523> that's Pun-Pun
20:49:14 <ais523> and for some reason it only works with kobolds, although I can't remember why
20:49:54 <pikhq> ais523: You get an ability that works on "scaly ones" that lets you modify yourself.
20:50:05 <ais523> ah yes
20:50:16 <pikhq> It works on any vaguely reptilian race, kobolds are just the easiest such race to use.
20:50:52 <Sgeo__> pimg
20:51:02 -!- augur has joined.
20:51:35 <pikhq> Also, IIRC, that was a bucket of water, a spell that lets you prevent yourself from dying from damage for a couple of turns, an *infinite damage loop*, and some spell that gave you extra stuff for the amount of damage you got.
20:52:04 <pikhq> Oh, and a way to make the temporary bonuses permanent.
20:52:24 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:52:51 <pikhq> There's yet another way of doing it. Polymorph. Awaken. Restoration. Repeat.
20:53:10 <pikhq> D&D is so broken it's not even funny.
20:53:32 <Phantom_Hoover> My nerd war sense is tingling.
20:53:37 <ais523> strangely, nobody's managed to break Pokémon yet
20:53:42 <ais523> and it's not for lack of trying
20:53:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Which one?
20:54:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No nerd war. Just nerding.
20:54:05 <zzo38> D&D can be broken in this way, but there are different players some player prefer a different way
20:54:13 <pikhq> It's a very well-known fact that D&D is incredibly not-balanced.
20:54:16 <zzo38> And anyways, any rule can be override if there is too much wrong
20:54:27 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume that the wide variety of stuff would make Pokemon resilient to breakage.
20:54:31 <zzo38> It is certainly correct that D&D is not balanced, however.
20:54:54 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you'd expect a wide variety to make things more easily broken, in fact
20:55:02 <zzo38> Semi-gestalter class hopefully makes it a bit more balanced however
20:55:05 <ais523> for instance Wobbuffet turned out to be unexpectedly broken in singles
20:55:05 <pikhq> But a paper-and-pen RPG doesn't need to be balanced, it just needs to have enough structure to let players have fun.
20:55:26 <ais523> although the championships are doubles, so you can't exploit it
20:55:27 <pikhq> And not stop them *from* having fun.
20:55:32 <zzo38> Yes, basically. Although balanced can helps a bit
20:56:19 <zzo38> Icosahedral RPG should be more balanced however in some ways, due to some of the difficulties involved in casting spells and so on.
20:56:49 <zzo38> I have heard of ways to do aleph-one damage in one turn
20:57:07 <zzo38> As well as ways to permanently transform your character into a sandwich
20:57:39 <ais523> the second is possible even in D&D, isn't it?
20:57:54 <ais523> just stack a bunch of polymorph any object spells
20:57:56 <zzo38> Both of these things refer to D&D
20:57:58 <Phantom_Hoover> How does one deal aleph-one damage in one turn?
20:58:07 <ais523> ah
20:58:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Who the hell wrote that into the rules?
20:58:57 <ais523> it probably wasn't deliberate
20:59:01 <ais523> the rules are rather self-contradictory anyway
20:59:07 <ais523> in places, at least
20:59:14 <Phantom_Hoover> How does it work?
20:59:22 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: RPG system writers manage to do some really, really funny things by accident.
20:59:50 <zzo38> Even Icosahedral RPG rules has one deliberately contradictory rule, however, which is called the Fundamental Rule: All rules have exceptions, including this one.
20:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Linky?
21:00:19 <pikhq> For instance, in D&D there exists the Peasant Railgun. You can have a line of people with readied actions to hand an object in front of them. Readied actions, when triggered, happen immediately.
21:00:40 <pikhq> Thus, with a line of people long enough, you can send any object any distance in 3 seconds.
21:00:49 <pikhq> (that being the granularity of D&D)
21:00:50 <zzo38> pikhq: Of course, that is a rule you have to override in that circumstance because it is obviously wrong in that case.
21:00:54 <ais523> pikhq: how many friends do you share with me?
21:01:04 <ais523> I've heard exactly the same stories, with almost exactly the same wording
21:01:09 <pikhq> ais523: I don't know, actually.
21:01:11 <ais523> presumably these things are just memes that spread around in gaming circles
21:01:11 <zzo38> There are many rules in D&D you have to override, especially since you can make up any new situation with new ideas
21:01:15 <ais523> and neither do I
21:01:20 <pikhq> ais523: These ones are just common knowledge in gaming circles.
21:01:23 <ais523> yep
21:01:35 <pikhq> zzo38: Except, of course, when it is sufficiently amusing.
21:01:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I am unable to play RPGs.
21:01:58 <Phantom_Hoover> As I lack sufficient friends to do so
21:02:29 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ... You're too lonely to play D&D? Now that's sad.
21:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:02:43 <zzo38> I play D&D sometimes
21:02:59 <zzo38> My character cannot do very much damage in one turn, but that's OK, I don't need
21:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, more that the couple of friends I have aren't even remotely interested.
21:03:17 <zzo38> I can increase my armor class a lot in one turn, however.
21:03:24 <pikhq> zzo38: DPS is only worth it when it's entertaining, of course.
21:03:42 <zzo38> pikhq: What does DPS means?
21:03:49 <pikhq> Damage-Per-Second.
21:03:59 <pikhq> Used to refer to a character build based on maximising that.
21:04:19 <pikhq> See: most roll-players.
21:04:22 <zzo38> Yes, that is what some people like to do, but different people like to play differently
21:05:23 <zzo38> I play it differently, planning ahead too much and using such things as Zwischenzug and so on.
21:05:41 <zzo38> I also try to avoid to kill someone, usually.
21:06:01 <zzo38> That alone makes the game a lot more intricate.
21:09:09 <alise> <ais523> I've been to Canada and back
21:09:14 <alise> dammit I want to be in Canada!
21:09:31 <ais523> it was a relatively pointless experience, really
21:11:11 <zzo38> And I am already in Canada.
21:11:33 <alise> <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ... You're too lonely to play D&D? Now that's sad.
21:11:46 <alise> Me too; I have 0 real-life friends. Well, that's not true, I have about four but that's just because I met up with some internet friends.
21:12:03 <alise> zzo38: can you provide me with lodging :|
21:12:08 <alise> lawl
21:12:13 <zzo38> alise: I don't think so.
21:12:26 <alise> ais523: hmm... idea
21:12:34 <alise> ais523: international nomic competitions; every game is two-player nomic
21:12:37 <alise> played in person, in real time
21:12:49 <ais523> you'd need a pretty robust initial moveset
21:12:54 <alise> perhaps in the later stages, the initial ruleset gets harder and harder to work with
21:12:59 <ais523> and I fear that with two, people would constantly vote down each other's proposals
21:13:00 <alise> requiring greater nomic skill
21:13:04 <ais523> because it's clearly the best strategy
21:13:09 <ais523> so nothing would ever happen
21:13:12 <alise> ais523: okay then, four -- or perhaps some mechanism to make this not happen somehow
21:13:17 <alise> such as penalties for voting against
21:13:50 <zzo38> Can you use an odd number of players, such as three or five players?
21:14:06 <ais523> I've even seen a solitaire version of Nomic online
21:14:11 <zzo38> I know some five players card games, such as Napoleon
21:14:19 <ais523> where the initial rules had huge restrictions on proposals, and the idea was to win in the minimum number of turns
21:14:33 <alise> ais523: what were you in canada for, btw?
21:14:54 <alise> apart from Agoran diplomatic relations
21:15:09 <zzo38> s/btw/eh/
21:15:18 <ais523> alise: conference
21:16:03 <alise> ais523: WHY WASN'T I INVITED :p
21:16:18 <ais523> because you hadn't submitted a paper to it?
21:16:29 <zzo38> What conference is that?
21:17:09 <zzo38> When you play D&D, is there a big monster with three tentacles in your party (perhaps NPC)?
21:17:22 <alise> That's only in the D&D 3.4Hentai edition.
21:18:02 <zzo38> Does such an edition exist?
21:18:09 <zzo38> I play 3.5 edition
21:18:11 <pikhq> alise: That *sort* of thing actually exists. Don't recall the name of the splat book in question, though.
21:18:33 <alise> I hope such an edition doesn't exist but, well...
21:18:44 <ais523> zzo38: Mathematical Foundations of Programming Semantics
21:18:55 <zzo38> Either way, my question did not mean such things as that
21:20:15 <zzo38> ais523: Thanks, what are some of the things discussed in that conference?
21:20:28 <ais523> it was mostly about mathematical models of programming
21:20:35 <ais523> much of it was extremely technical
21:20:42 <zzo38> I mean more specific
21:21:18 <alise> Argh, I hate the SCP wiki!
21:21:21 <ais523> game semantics, categorical models of programming-related structures
21:21:29 <pikhq> alise: Amazing time-waste, isn't it?
21:21:39 <zzo38> OK
21:21:47 <alise> -- I CANNOT LEAVE THIS ROOM -- I --
21:21:59 <pikhq> Hahahahah.
21:22:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I did that.
21:22:10 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:22:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I literally did not sleep at all.
21:22:17 <zzo38> Surely you sleep when dark
21:22:29 <zzo38> I sleep too
21:22:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Not when you've een reading the SCP wiki...
21:22:42 <Phantom_Hoover> s/een/been/
21:22:44 <pikhq> There's scary shit there.
21:22:50 <zzo38> No, I sleep even when reading SCP wiki
21:23:00 <zzo38> It doesn't stop me from doing so
21:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> You are evidently superman.
21:23:14 <zzo38> I am not superman
21:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover> No, of course not.
21:23:42 <Phantom_Hoover> You wouldn't want the Foundation getting you.
21:23:57 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: No, that has nothing to do with it
21:24:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Of coursee.
21:24:41 <zzo38> Clearly most things described there are impossible. But perhaps me or someone can figure out if some of these things are in fact possible or partially possible just to see if it is or not
21:24:53 <zzo38> And you can make thought experiment even for impossible things, I suppose?
21:25:16 <zzo38> And they keep deleting files!
21:25:27 <Phantom_Hoover> My problem is that my rational mind legs it once the lights are off.
21:25:55 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Legs what?
21:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Idiom.
21:26:22 <zzo38> (I am not superman and my D&D character is not superman either)
21:26:31 <alise> legs it, i.e. runs away
21:26:36 <alise> brb.
21:26:42 <zzo38> alise: OK
21:27:24 <zzo38> You can be rational mind becoming mixed up while sleeping, but if you are so, you are sleeping, once you wake up fully you are OK?
21:28:09 <zzo38> (At least to me it is, usually)
21:28:31 <Phantom_Hoover> How does one tell if one is sleeping.
21:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> s/.$/?$/
21:28:46 <zzo38> You guess.
21:28:51 <zzo38> That's how.
21:28:51 <coppro> ps
21:29:34 <zzo38> Sometimes when I sleep I know I am sleeping, but sometimes I forgot and I don't think so.
21:31:28 <ais523> there are various ways to determine if you're sleeping
21:31:36 <ais523> one way is to attempt to read something that's written
21:31:49 <ais523> you'll find you have to concentrate on the letters for the words to be made of letters, rather than just words
21:31:55 <zzo38> Things like this do not actually always work.
21:32:04 <zzo38> Only sometimes.
21:32:25 <zzo38> Sometimes you would forget that is the case
21:32:29 <zzo38> That's what happens when you sleep
21:35:30 <zzo38> I made some changes in Spider Tarot, you could fix it more if you think there is another mistake, sprunge TfgQ
21:40:24 <zzo38> Is it possible on Linux to set a user to have multiple groups?
21:40:56 <ais523> yes
21:41:15 <ais523> users have one "primary group" but they can be in any number of other groups as well
21:41:31 <zzo38> OK
21:45:47 <alise> <ais523> you'll find you have to concentrate on the letters for the words to be made of letters, rather than just words
21:45:48 <alise> false
21:45:51 <alise> you can't even read words in dreams
21:45:56 <alise> they simply are not there
21:46:08 <ais523> hmm, maybe
21:46:16 <ais523> perhaps it affects different people differently
21:46:18 <alise> definitely; try to read a book in a dream sometime, even when lucid
21:46:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: the answer to "how do you know you are dreaming": reality checks
21:46:41 <alise> try lucid dreaming some time. it's very interesting
21:46:49 <alise> always freaks me out though: knowing the imperfections in this constructed reality.
21:47:53 <zzo38> Sometimes it works, sometimes you don't know, sometimes it seems to work but can't, but you forgot until you are wake up
21:48:04 <Sgeo__> alise, you are dreaming right now. Do a reality check.
21:48:27 <alise> Sgeo__: I can read text perfectly fine, colour is incredibly vibrant, and I've experienced no sort of realisation that I'm dreaming.
21:48:32 <alise> And both of my hands have the correct number of fingers.
21:48:39 <alise> I cannot breath while holding my nose.
21:48:46 <alise> Clocks are staying the same between looks.
21:48:49 <alise> I am awake.
21:49:23 <zzo38> (Did you think there is still a mistake in the Spider Tarot implementation file?)
21:49:29 <Sgeo__> I find that I can read text in my dreams. Usually, I try to pass a finger through a palm
21:49:47 <Sgeo__> *shrug*
21:49:53 <ais523> one relatively easy way is to choose to wake up
21:49:57 <zzo38> I find it changes every time
21:50:02 <ais523> that nearly always works if you're asleep, just you rarely think of doing it
21:50:08 <zzo38> Even if you choose to wake up sometimes it cannot work, but sometimes it can
21:50:16 <Sgeo__> I think you are supposed to do a reality check when you find your thoughts turning to thoughts about dreaming
21:50:16 <ais523> if you're awake, it obviously does nothing
21:50:18 <zzo38> Even if I know I am sleep!
21:51:00 <Sgeo__> It's been a while since I've had a lucid dream
21:51:08 <alise> ais523: but the whole point of lucid dreaming is that you DON'T want to wake up
21:51:16 <uorygl> I think I had a lucid dream the night before last.
21:51:19 <alise> anyway, I can't do things like passing fingers through a palm I don't think
21:51:22 <uorygl> Or maybe the night before that.
21:51:25 <alise> but I always have >5 fingers
21:51:31 <ais523> alise: if you don't want to wake up, why care if you're awake or asleep?
21:51:31 <alise> and they're sometimes in strange places on my hand
21:51:40 <alise> ais523: because if you realise you're dreaming, you can control the dreamworld
21:51:44 <uorygl> Yeah, I seem to consistently have too many fingers.
21:51:54 <ais523> perhaps you should try to control it the JS way
21:51:57 <alise> ais523: Or do you not see the appeal of being god in a universe that can defy physical laws?
21:52:02 <ais523> test to see if you can control the universe by thinking at it
21:52:04 <ais523> not for being awake or asleep
21:52:10 <alise> To have an experience entirely specific to your wishes?
21:52:21 <uorygl> ais523: well, that's one reality check.
21:52:24 <alise> You can only affect the universe in a lucid dream if you really think it will work.
21:52:29 <alise> This is hard to do without first knowing you're dreaming.
21:52:35 <alise> Otherwise you'd have to think it'll really work in real life too; then you would be insane.
21:52:37 <ais523> hmm, interesting
21:52:45 <ais523> perhaps it does work in real life
21:52:50 <ais523> just nobody believes it strongly enough to make it happen
21:52:51 <alise> Aaaand he turns insane
21:53:09 <uorygl> ais523: perhaps, but there's no reason to think so.
21:53:21 <ais523> agreed
21:53:28 <ais523> but this is #esoteric, I like questioning assumptions
21:53:32 <AnMaster> hehe
21:53:42 <AnMaster> hi ais523 btw
21:53:44 <uorygl> Consider it questioned. :P
21:53:46 <ais523> hi
21:54:04 <alise> ais523: have you never had a lucid dream?
21:54:08 <ais523> alise: I have
21:54:13 <alise> your suggestions about reality checks seem to suggest you hadn't
21:54:17 <ais523> often I didn't realise I was dreaming at the time
21:54:18 <alise> ais523: ok, have you ever /wanted/ to have one?
21:54:24 <alise> err... that's not lucid
21:54:24 <ais523> no, not deliberately
21:54:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I question that this is the forum for questioning assumptions!
21:54:28 <alise> lucid dreaming = dreaming & aware dreaming
21:54:38 <Phantom_Hoover> I want to have one, but I haven't....
21:54:38 <ais523> although sometimes I wanted to continue them once I realised I was asleep, and continued
21:54:49 <ais523> alise: ah, to me, lucid dreaming = dreaming where you control your actoins
21:54:50 <ais523> *actions
21:54:54 <ais523> and the world around you
21:55:00 <alise> ais523: you do in every dream, just not very intelligently (control your actions)
21:55:00 <ais523> you don't need to know you're asleep to do that
21:55:07 <ais523> not really, not for me
21:55:08 <uorygl> The idea of having a lucid dream makes me want to have a lucid dream!
21:55:09 <alise> well your definition is wrong :-)
21:55:13 <alise> I can't continue with dream plots after I become lucid
21:55:16 <alise> just can't get into the zone
21:55:20 <alise> my problem is: I can never get clearness
21:55:22 <uorygl> And the idea of wanting something makes me want to do something else. :P
21:55:27 <alise> I do the spinning, which is supposed to help; everything is still cloudy.
21:55:30 <AnMaster> alise, dream plots?
21:55:34 <alise> Touch and stare at bricks and other detailed objects: doesn't help.
21:55:35 <ais523> I think we both dream pretty differently
21:55:37 <AnMaster> alise, as in plotter or as in story?
21:55:39 <alise> Try and keep doing things rationally: doesn't help.
21:55:45 <alise> Then it goes all fuzzy and I wake up.
21:55:46 <alise> AnMaster: Story....
21:55:49 <AnMaster> ah
21:56:02 * AnMaster imagines a plotter plotting graphs of dreams
21:56:05 <AnMaster> should be interesting
21:56:05 <ais523> alise: that's because you're too logical, I think
21:56:12 <ais523> dream plots normally aren't self-consistent
21:56:26 <alise> oh, I can do totally illogical things afterwards
21:56:29 <ais523> I can imagine you're the sort of person who'd notice, and that would screw up lucid reality
21:56:33 <alise> but I lose all sympathy for the characters in the dream
21:56:36 <zzo38> Dream plots are never self-consistent, even if you think it is
21:56:36 <ais523> because you know it isn't real
21:56:36 <alise> and care not one bit about the plot
21:56:37 <AnMaster> I almost never remember my dreams
21:56:44 <AnMaster> and as far as I know I never had a lucid one
21:56:45 <zzo38> If you think it is that is because you are inconsistent
21:56:55 <ais523> I don't think you can have a sensible illusion of reality unless you think it's real
21:57:00 <alise> It's funny the limitations on my current lucid abilities.
21:57:16 <alise> I can jump out of a window and glide to the ground; I can manage some sort of limited, crappy low gliding-flight.
21:57:25 <alise> I cannot change my surroundings at will or cause things to appear.
21:57:32 <AnMaster> alise, before you do that make sure it actually is a lucid dream
21:57:36 <alise> AnMaster: Of course.
21:57:42 <alise> Incidentally, if you ever notice you have more fingers than usual in a dream:
21:57:43 <ais523> hmm, my flight abilities were generally limited to floating down staircases
21:57:47 <alise> Touch the strange ones.
21:57:49 <alise> You will FEEL TEM!
21:57:50 <alise> *THEM
21:57:54 <AnMaster> huh
21:57:55 <ais523> although I could make the staircases appear at will, so it was less limited than it might feel
21:57:56 <alise> But, it will feel like a tingling, faint and strange.
21:57:59 <alise> It definitely feels alien.
21:58:01 <AnMaster> alise, I see...
21:58:04 <alise> But still, there is sensation.
21:58:13 <AnMaster> alise, I never been aware of dreaming while dreaming so..
21:58:13 <alise> You can sense six or more fingers.
21:58:18 <AnMaster> though I had recursive dreams
21:58:18 <alise> It's bizarre.
21:58:24 <alise> AnMaster: most people do
21:58:35 <AnMaster> alise, yeah but recursive dreams are pretty strange
21:58:42 <alise> ais523: Apparently if you can make a mirror or similar appear with your desired dreamworld in it, you can enter it to go there
21:58:49 <alise> also, apparently thinking of a place and spinning around will get you there too
21:58:50 <AnMaster> like dreaming you wake up, and you don't
21:58:59 <alise> dreamworlds are like all the silly magic fantasies ... working
21:59:05 <ais523> for me it just needed a place in dreamworld geography
21:59:16 <zzo38> I sometimes have very recursive dreams
21:59:27 <AnMaster> alise, what about clapping your hands and believing in faeries? ;P
21:59:28 <ais523> zzo38: more than two levels?
21:59:34 <ais523> I used to do two levels a lot, although it hasn't recently
21:59:46 <AnMaster> I think I actually had 3 levels once
21:59:47 <alise> AnMaster: That might even work.
21:59:48 <ais523> mostly, waking up, getting ready, etc, then waking up again and being annoyed at having to do it all all over again
21:59:51 <AnMaster> which was bloody strange
21:59:57 <ais523> obviously I didn't know I was asleep at the time (and it wasn't lucid)
21:59:58 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, more than two levels. I don't remember exactly but I think perhaps seven levels
21:59:59 <alise> Side-note, apparently dream sex is better than the real thing.
22:00:05 <ais523> zzo38: that's impressive
22:00:06 <alise> Good luck getting lucid enough to do that though.
22:00:14 <alise> zzo38: how on earth did you keep track?
22:00:20 <ais523> alise: I expect it's better than the real thing by definition
22:00:26 <AnMaster> alise, what about dream sex without being lucid?
22:00:29 <ais523> it's what you want to have from sex, not what sex actually is
22:00:30 <alise> ais523: Well, it depends.
22:00:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Please, for the love of god, tell me you don't actually know.
22:00:41 <alise> I suppose if you have a bad imagination you'd find it hard to think of what you want from sex.
22:00:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I don't :P
22:00:48 <zzo38> alise: I don't know how. I don't actually remember so I guessed
22:01:01 <zzo38> But that is the best I can remember
22:01:08 <ais523> zzo38: maybe it was only two levels, but seven equalled two in that dreamworld
22:02:11 <alise> ais523: Of course, an issue with lucid dreams is that the characters can never be realistic.
22:02:20 <zzo38> Of course such things are possible, but that isn't what I can remember (of course it is not possibly to remember exactly the dreams)
22:02:21 <alise> Because your subconscious will be maintaining them; at best they'll be poor copies of you.
22:02:28 <ais523> people aren't realistic in real life either, though
22:02:30 <alise> Or even unrealistic in an interesting way
22:02:38 <zzo38> Seven is just the approximate number. But I know it was something close to that number
22:02:46 <alise> One thing I'd like to do in a dream is to get powerful enough to be able to set pi to 3.
22:02:54 <AnMaster> alise, :D
22:02:57 <alise> I imagine my vision will go all fucked up and then I'll wake up. :)
22:03:00 <ais523> you'd need to know the consequences
22:03:03 <alise> ais523: not really
22:03:04 <ais523> or be able to work them out
22:03:05 <ais523> or you'd fail
22:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Just make the geometry non-Euclidean.
22:03:10 <AnMaster> yeah what ais523 said
22:03:14 <AnMaster> btw
22:03:16 <ais523> it's your own mind doing the calculations, after all
22:03:19 <alise> ais523: my mind would just go on my naive "dream" expectation of what would happen if pi became 3
22:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Positive curvature should do.
22:03:24 <ais523> yes
22:03:29 <ais523> circles becoming hexagons, etc?
22:03:30 <AnMaster> what are the consequences of pi = 3?
22:03:31 <alise> which is, everything goes fucked up and the universe is destroyed
22:03:42 <alise> ais523: I don't think my mind can perceive a non-pi pi
22:03:49 <alise> AnMaster: nothing much; it's simply false.
22:03:55 <alise> pi isn't a constant you can change
22:03:59 <alise> just a consequence
22:04:01 <Phantom_Hoover> No, if anything Pi is *already* less than 3.14159...
22:04:22 <alise> The universe is only locally Euclidean.
22:04:27 <alise> Pi is in Euclidean geometry.
22:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> It's no Euclidean on Earth.
22:04:48 <uorygl> AnMaster: everything is a consequence of pi = 3.
22:04:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: O rly?
22:04:57 <AnMaster> uorygl, hm
22:05:00 <alise> And anyway, I said locally. As in locally.
22:05:07 <Phantom_Hoover> We're in a gravity well.
22:05:09 <Phantom_Hoover> QED.
22:05:18 <zzo38> Pi has the value it has regardless of geometry. You just have to use it different ways in different geometries.
22:05:20 <alise> Locally as in "visual proofs work if you look at them".
22:05:29 <alise> zzo38: Yes, but pi as the ratio that it is.
22:05:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but the ratio of the circumference to the diameter changes.
22:05:49 <AnMaster> alise, try changing e as well
22:05:51 <uorygl> I like the "circles are hexagons" consequence of pi = 3.
22:06:05 <AnMaster> uorygl, then what would hexagons become?
22:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Except it's not valid.
22:06:09 <alise> AnMaster: Do you just hate Euler?
22:06:10 <uorygl> Circles. :P
22:06:17 <AnMaster> alise, no, why?
22:06:23 <alise> AnMaster: His identity.
22:06:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Circles would still have no (or infinity) corners.
22:06:30 <AnMaster> alise, hah
22:06:31 <alise> You're RUINING it!
22:07:36 <uorygl> Hmm, I think that a number of the form a^(bi) where a and b are real numbers always has absolute value 1.
22:07:46 * alise installs sage to try it.
22:07:51 <alise> Try sage, not what uorygl said.
22:08:06 <AnMaster> sage ?
22:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> CAS>
22:08:13 <uorygl> Now I'm confident that that's true for positive a.
22:08:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Or a mush of CASes.
22:08:40 <uorygl> And it's clearly false for a = 0.
22:08:53 <alise> sage is a mush of CASs with a bad python frontend
22:08:53 <alise> But eh.
22:09:01 <alise> I'm tired of Mathematica's UI on Linux.
22:09:06 <uorygl> As for negative a, my intuition stops there. :P
22:09:11 <alise> :( sagemath is no longer in Ubuntu, it seems
22:09:19 <uorygl> Though I remember that (-1)^i is a biggish real number.
22:09:37 <uorygl> Oh, it's actaully a smallish one. Bah.
22:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i^i is real, and that still confuses me.
22:09:47 <alise> duck duck go is so awesome
22:09:59 <alise> (-1)^i = e^-pi :P
22:10:20 <uorygl> Eh, complex exponentiation is multivalued.
22:10:40 <uorygl> As far as I know, (-1)^i and e^-pi have all the same values.
22:11:05 <uorygl> Though, obviously, e^-pi has a certain interpretation as the exp function.
22:17:47 -!- Ilari_antrcomp has joined.
22:19:41 <alise> So, um, why do all CASs suck?
22:20:32 <Ilari_antrcomp> Because the problems are undecidable unless one approximates?
22:20:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:20:59 <alise> No; you don't use a CAS for such problems (and they try very hard to never return approximated results).
22:21:07 <alise> It's because they suck, is the answer.
22:21:24 <alise> They fall into two categories: Closed source thinsg that can do what you want, but with a lot of fluff, some fundamental issues, and horrible UIs;
22:21:26 <alise> *things
22:21:40 <alise> and open source ones with a decent foundation, no UI whatsoever, and extremely limited capabilities.
22:21:55 <alise> If I were a crazy man I would say that I should start a project to create a decent open-source CAS -- I am a crazy man.
22:22:05 <Ilari_antrcomp> "Approximates" meaning one has to take some shortcuts.
22:22:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:23:08 <alise> Mm. But I don't think that's why they suck; it's unavoidable.
22:26:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:33:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:34:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Sage has Maxima, hasn't it?
22:34:57 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:35:10 <alise> I think it uses Maxima for some things.
22:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover> So why not just use Maxima?
22:35:51 <alise> 1.2 MiB/s, oh yeah.
22:36:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because Sage has a nicer interface and can also associate with other packages.
22:36:03 <alise> Maxima itself is very limited.
22:36:17 <alise> Maybe I should give Symbolics mucho moneys and get myself a copy of Macsyma (predecessor of Maxima) :-)
22:36:28 <alise> Or, ooh, go back to the 70s A.I. Lab and use AUTOMATH!
22:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> But Maxima is from MacSyma's code, isn't it?
22:36:55 <alise> Yes.
22:37:06 <alise> But it's cooler. It ran on Lisp Machines for fuck's sake!
22:37:18 <Phantom_Hoover> But no-one uses them!
22:37:32 <alise> You can still buy them!
22:37:54 <alise> http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt $675 to $3,500.
22:37:59 <alise> And they're still amazing.
22:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> We must build our own!
22:38:26 <alise> My life dream, man. My life dream.
22:38:29 <alise> Apart from my other ones
22:38:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Like?
22:39:18 <alise> Building the perfect CAS, building the perfect OS, building the perfect interface...
22:39:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Not, like, solving the Reimann hypothesis or anything?
22:39:48 <alise> Build the singularity...
22:39:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hey, I was getting there!
22:40:11 <alise> I don't believe that I could solve the Riemann hypothesis, anyway.
22:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway, I will build the singularity first!
22:40:36 <Phantom_Hoover> And then do the rest!
22:40:39 <alise> Although I did fancy once proving it independent of ZFC, as a big ha-ha-fuck-you to both camps.
22:40:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But the singularity will do the rest for you... at least the ones that are still relevant.
22:41:09 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:41:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, make sure it's Friendly.
22:41:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I will be the singularity!
22:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Although you can throw the "friendly" out of the window, then.
22:41:38 <alise> Omega
22:41:44 <alise> Coming to a mind near you...
22:41:58 <Phantom_Hoover> He's just the head of a quasi-personality cult.
22:42:06 <alise> Also featuring Robin Hanson and uorygl (for comic relief).
22:42:07 <alise> Antagonist: taw
22:42:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eh, I don't see Eliezer as a cult leader.
22:42:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Where do we fit oerjan?
22:42:26 <alise> It's not his fault people idolise him.
22:42:38 <alise> Pretty sure oerjan wants nothing to do with the singularity; he believes in god anyway :)
22:42:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I will go to war with god!
22:43:01 <alise> Steady on, Philip Pullman.
22:43:15 <Phantom_Hoover> For the whole bloody incompleteness thing!
22:43:38 <alise> I think it's Goedel you're thinking of there, not god
22:43:45 <uorygl> alise: is Hansom part of the comic relief crew?
22:43:50 <alise> Hansom :D
22:43:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Where does fax come in?
22:44:08 <uorygl> That's what I get for typing with one hand and one finger.
22:44:19 <alise> uorygl: No, he's just a raving scientist on the side.
22:44:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: fax is secretly god.
22:44:24 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:44:35 <alise> She just has problems coming up with proofs of his own existence... and really hates humans
22:44:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Then I shall go to war with fax!
22:44:37 <alise> *her
22:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> And break her Klein bottles!
22:44:59 <alise> PG-13 plz
22:45:10 <uorygl> The Riemann hypothesis seems like the sort of thing that's definitely either true or false.
22:45:24 <uorygl> Hmm, I should add some more "definitely"s.
22:45:33 <uorygl> That's definitely either definitely true or definitely false.
22:45:37 <Phantom_Hoover> I've often wondered what the undecidability of the RH would imply.
22:45:50 <alise> uorygl: Be careful.
22:45:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Since it would obviously be decidable if a counterexample existed.
22:46:06 <alise> There was some hypothesis, I forget what,
22:46:15 <alise> where a case for n=m was proven
22:46:20 <alise> but then n=m+1 or such was proved independent
22:46:22 <alise> without anyone expecting it
22:47:31 <alise> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird ehird 502M 2010-05-23 22:45 sage-4.4.2-linux-64bit-ubuntu_10.04_lts-x86_64-Linux.tar.gz
22:47:32 <alise> O_O
22:47:37 <Phantom_Hoover> What is alise in this epic.
22:47:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: a real boy.
22:48:05 * Phantom_Hoover grabs some string
22:48:20 <Phantom_Hoover> And yeah, Sage is massive.
22:48:31 <alise> aww, ais went
22:48:42 <Phantom_Hoover> I offloaded it onto an experimental flash drive RAID.
22:49:00 <alise> Is it how many gigs when expanded?
22:49:00 <alise> 2?
22:49:10 <Phantom_Hoover> 1 and a bit, IIRC.
22:49:54 * uorygl interprets that literally before realizing that the non-literal interpretation is a lot more likely.
22:49:57 <alise> All this for a system inferior to the commercial CASs.
22:50:01 <alise> Sheesh.
22:50:04 <alise> uorygl: Interprets what literally?
22:50:20 <uorygl> I thought Phantom_Hoover meant "one gigabyte plus one bit".
22:50:23 <alise> heh
22:50:33 <alise> Sage now lives in ~/research/2010-05/sage; a rather unassuming directory name for the behemoth it is.
22:51:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I think a lot of the cruft is pointless copies of libraries you almost certainly already have.
22:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Just use the web version.
22:51:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, maybe not
22:51:29 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:51:35 <alise> No; too slow and... impersonal.
22:51:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, yeah.
22:52:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Though the offline version takes an ungodly time to load.
22:52:09 <uorygl> I wonder what directory name would suggest that it contains a lot.
22:52:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And god help you if you are foolish enough to *move* it.
22:52:31 <alise> uorygl: /opt/sage
22:52:36 <uorygl> /var/aggregated-database/sage
22:52:43 <alise> sage: 2+2
22:52:43 <alise> 4
22:52:44 <alise> WOOOO
22:52:45 <uorygl> Or that.
22:52:45 <alise> That was worth it.
22:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> It regenerates *every single pyo and pyc file*.
22:53:13 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, it did that just now :)
22:53:15 <alise> Took a few minutes
22:53:26 <Phantom_Hoover> How about ~/research/2010-05/sage-bloody-huge?
22:53:35 <alise> sage: solve(a==1+(1/a), a)
22:53:35 <alise> [a == -1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2, a == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2]
22:53:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's the date subdivision that does the little-soundingness, I think.
22:54:15 <Phantom_Hoover> ~/research/bloody-huge/sage?
22:54:31 <uorygl> You could be a bit more subtle.
22:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Subtlety is for the weak.
22:54:55 <alise> sage: (golden_ratio == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2).full_simplify()
22:54:55 <alise> 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2 == 1/2*sqrt(5) + 1/2
22:54:58 <alise> Hmm. :P
22:55:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Client Quit).
22:55:30 <alise> Please choose a new password for the Sage Notebook 'admin' user.
22:55:31 <alise> Do _not_ choose a stupid password, since anybody who could guess your password
22:55:31 <alise> and connect to your machine could access or delete your files.
22:55:31 <alise> NOTE: Only the md5 hash of the password you type is stored by Sage.
22:55:31 <alise> You can change your password by typing notebook(reset=True).
22:55:34 <alise> md5, great :P
22:55:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it broken?
22:55:57 <alise> It's ... weak.
22:55:57 <uorygl> MD5 is quite broken these days.
22:56:09 <alise> Not broken by a long stretch: but cracking passwords is doable with some heuristics.
22:56:11 <alise> And luck..
22:56:12 <Phantom_Hoover> I think I've forgotten my Sage admin password.
22:56:13 <alise> *luck...
22:56:17 <alise> And it's generally just quite weak.
22:56:27 * Phantom_Hoover goes off and gets USB drives
22:58:53 <alise> Man, I love the typesetting ability.
22:59:00 <alise> Oh god it can use TeX fonts awesome
22:59:08 <Ilari> AFAIK, MD5 is not broken for password hashing.
22:59:42 <Portponky> I think for md5 there is a way of generating collisions?
22:59:52 <alise> there is
22:59:54 <alise> well-established
23:00:05 <Ilari> Portponky: Actually, attacks against it are more advanced than just collisions.
23:00:05 <Portponky> that doesn't break it for passwords
23:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, I knew this flash drive RAID thing was a bad idea
23:00:17 <alise> it isn't broken
23:00:23 <alise> but people choose bad passwords often...
23:00:30 <alise> i'm pretty sure md5 weaknesses have been exploited for that
23:00:35 <Portponky> can't you generate a crapload of MD5 sums quickly?
23:00:35 <alise> maybe i'm wrong
23:00:41 <Portponky> yeah there's a backwards md5 search for common strings
23:00:44 <alise> md5 is very fast ofc
23:00:49 <alise> which is its weakness, partially
23:00:56 <Portponky> valve used it in their portal 2 arg
23:00:57 <Ilari> AFAIK, the state of the art is given X and Y, find Z and W such that MD5(XZ) = MD5(YW).
23:01:45 * Phantom_Hoover must sleep
23:01:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: musn't.
23:01:55 <alise> it's only 11pm.
23:04:26 <Ilari> That's one reason why just doing Hash(password) and storing that is bad idea.
23:04:33 <alise> yeah
23:05:09 <Ilari> Password storage should utilize 1) Iteration 2) salting.
23:06:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:06:13 <uorygl> Iteration? Does that mean taking the hash a bunch of times, salting every time.
23:06:20 -!- augur has joined.
23:06:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
23:06:52 <Ilari> AFAIK, one has to only salt once in first iteration.
23:07:16 <uorygl> So iteration means you just take hashes of hashes?
23:07:24 <alise> pw_safe = MD5^n(salt(pw))
23:07:38 <alise> Set n so that calculating pw_safe takes about 1-2 seconds.
23:07:43 <augur> i'd salt /your/ iterations
23:07:45 <alise> Everyone can wait 1-2 seconds to register or log in.
23:07:46 <augur> if you know what i mean
23:07:48 <augur> ;o ;o ;o
23:07:48 <alise> And it'll be very secure.
23:07:48 <Ilari> That's bit excessive...
23:07:58 <alise> Ilari: But utterly harmless.
23:08:10 <alise> And, well, not being excessive enough is what got us here today: continually replacing our security algorithms.
23:08:13 <Ilari> pw_safe = salt|MD5^n(salt|pw)
23:08:30 <alise> It's not like the more-bits-are-better nonsense you find in bad public key systems.
23:08:39 <alise> Anyway, here's what you should really do:
23:08:50 <alise> pw_safe = bcrypt(pw, n)
23:08:56 <uorygl> I guess iteration does make the hash, and therefore any cracking, take longer.
23:08:59 <Ilari> One could design very slow but very unlikely to be ever broken hash function.
23:09:00 <alise> Turns out OpenBSD are really fucking good at this stuff.
23:09:02 <alise> Problem solved.
23:09:21 <Ilari> Don't they use EKS Blowfish?
23:09:31 <alise> They use blowfish + salting + repeated iterations.
23:09:34 <alise> It's all very fancy.
23:09:46 <alise> If you believe cperciva, FreeBSD security officer, you should now use his scrypt instead.
23:12:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
23:14:55 -!- alise has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:16:22 -!- alise has joined.
23:18:41 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:19:11 <alise> lar
23:19:38 <augur> set unification is horrible
23:19:44 <augur> can i just say this
23:20:18 <pikhq> Unpermissibile.
23:20:45 <augur> i think i dont have a clear definition of it in my head
23:26:46 <alise> bah
23:26:51 <alise> we need the perfect cas. clearly
23:28:45 <alise> man, DDG is awesome.
23:53:56 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:53:56 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
←2010-05-22 2010-05-23 2010-05-24→ ↑2010 ↑all