00:08:59 <pikhq> It's... My God, my Internet is working NORMALLY
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02:52:16 <oerjan> <pikhq> It's... My God, my Internet is working NORMALLY <-- i guess it must be the end times then
02:58:04 <pikhq> Nope, stopped working right again.
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03:33:40 <Mathnerd314> Gregor: have you ever tried eating your arm? it's quite tasty.
03:34:45 <pikhq> There are few cannibals on IRC.
03:35:03 <oerjan> pikhq: [citation needed]
03:35:27 * Sgeo just submitted a troll post to Reddit
03:35:54 <Sgeo> Well, I guess it depends how you define "troll"
03:36:11 <oerjan> big, brutish, should avoid sunlight?
03:36:38 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/iamaf/comments/c8w9v/iamna_person_trolling_riamaf_with_this_post/
03:37:18 <Sgeo> It's not a comment, it's a submission
03:38:37 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: from what I can see, anything goes on IAMAF
03:39:06 <Sgeo> So it's fully true that I'm not trolling, then? Hm
03:39:14 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have said that I am trolling
03:39:40 <Sgeo> No, I think that's said in IAmNA, which does imply that it's a fictional persona?
03:40:10 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: just so long as you follow the unencyclopedia guideline of "try to be funny and not just stupid"
03:40:39 <Sgeo> I don't think I can add anything that would be funny and not just stupid
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03:42:05 <Mathnerd314> I mean, just consider "IAm(N)An invisible pink unicorn."
03:50:56 <uorygl> `translate Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:51:35 <uorygl> What HackEgo means to say, of course, is "Alexander Pánek is decent nasal incontinent."
03:52:32 <uorygl> `cp /bin/cat bin/translate
03:52:42 <uorygl> `translate Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:53:02 <uorygl> `run cp /bin/cat bin/translate
03:53:06 <uorygl> `translate Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:53:14 <uorygl> `run ls -l bin/translate
03:53:20 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 56296 May 28 02:52 bin/translate
03:53:32 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 0 0 56296 Jun 5 2009 /bin/cat
03:54:00 <Gregor> Yes, translate is broken.
03:54:12 <uorygl> `run cp /bin/echo bin/translate
03:54:14 <oerjan> uorygl: cat doesn't take it's file as a command line argument
03:54:21 <uorygl> `translate Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:54:22 <HackEgo> Alexander Pánek ist dezent nasal inkontinent.
03:54:23 <oerjan> or, well, you know what i mean
03:54:43 <uorygl> `translate I can now translate anything at a rapid rate of speed.
03:54:44 <HackEgo> I can now translate anything at a rapid rate of speed.
03:55:46 <uorygl> It can quickly translate anything at a rapid rate of fast speed.
03:57:46 * uorygl is intrigued by some of Google Translate's translations.
03:58:00 <uorygl> Welcome to Grand Valley State University. -> Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal de Grand Valley.
03:58:15 <uorygl> Welcome to Grand Rapids State University. -> Bienvenidos a Grand Rapids State University.
03:58:33 <uorygl> Welcome to Grand Attitude State University. -> Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal de Grand Actitud.
03:58:39 <oerjan> la grande rapido universidad estatal
03:59:00 <uorygl> Welcome to Large Attitude State University. -> Bienvenido a la Universidad del Estado de gran actitud.
03:59:29 <uorygl> Welcome to Large Rock State University. -> Bienvenido a la Universidad Gran Estado Rock.
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04:00:50 <uorygl> Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal del Valle Grande. Bienvenido a Gran Rapids State University. Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal de Grand Rock.
04:01:09 <uorygl> Bienvenido a la Universidad de Green State Reaper.
04:03:32 <uorygl> Bienvenido a la Universidad Gran Rostro Estado. Bienvenido a la Universidad Estatal de Grand cara. Bienvenido a la cara de la Universidad del Estado.
04:03:47 <myndzi\> `translate Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo.
04:03:48 <HackEgo> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo.
04:03:48 <uorygl> I wonder why it said "Bienvenidos" precisely once.
04:03:50 -!- myndzi\ has changed nick to myndzi.
04:04:14 <uorygl> myndzi: Buffalo Buffalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo búfalo.
04:04:42 <myndzi> it's missing two more proper nouns
04:07:19 <uorygl> Spanish sentence: La rata que el gato que el perro mordió persiguió escapó.
04:07:29 <uorygl> Its Google translation: The rat the cat the dog bit chased escaped.
04:07:54 <uorygl> The impression ends there, however.
04:08:00 <uorygl> Back to Spanish: La rata, el gato al perro mordió perseguido escapado.
04:08:18 <uorygl> Back to English: The rat the cat the dog bit chased escaped.
04:08:22 <uorygl> That is kind of impressive, actually.
04:09:26 <uorygl> That Spanish sentence actually means "The rat, the cat bit the dog that had (been) chased and escaped."
04:10:22 <uorygl> And is a strange way of saying it.
04:21:16 <pikhq> But it comes back to English unscathed.
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09:25:13 <AnMaster> <Zuu> The only reason i havent compiled it for linux yet, is because of some pcre foop :) <-- hm? libpcre not installed or?
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09:30:09 * Sgeo should probably do something blasphemous, like sleep
09:37:47 * Sgeo should make a song of the various semantics of assignment in different languages, to the theme of the llama song
09:38:25 <Sgeo> Hm, I thought it would begin "C and C++ make copies", but I'm not sure that that's accurate for C++
09:39:14 <Sgeo> C#'s really a strange bugger, sometimes copies, sometimes...
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09:40:17 <Sgeo> I should say "the assignment operator", since it can sometimes be used for things that aren't actually assignment (Ruby, C#, Python, others?)
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09:52:39 <Phantom_Hoover> You can overload the assignment operator in C++, can't you?
09:55:12 <Sgeo> I.. know there's a copy constructor, don't know how that works with operator overloading
09:55:40 <Sgeo> Haskell has an assignment operator. It's just more.. permanent
09:56:39 <Sgeo> I should probably sleep
09:56:43 <Sgeo> It's almost 5am
09:58:52 <Phantom_Hoover> When I was your age we had one time zone, and we were happy with it!
10:06:18 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Hm, I thought it would begin "C and C++ make copies", but I'm not sure that that's accurate for C++
10:06:42 <AnMaster> Sgeo, C has a fairly straight forward assignment
10:07:13 <AnMaster> well it makes copies if you consider the variable itself. You copy the pointer and so on.
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13:43:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw nice backronym in iwc today
13:43:30 <oerjan> actually it's not so much headache as my noise sensitivity being extra bad today
13:44:14 <oklopol> you're more noise sensitive than the average human?
13:44:20 <oerjan> ok, a little headache too
13:46:04 <oklopol> i've never met anyone with as low a threshold for early pain as myself
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13:54:05 <AnMaster> <oklopol> you're more noise sensitive than the average human? <-- I am. Due to better than average hearing (had this tested many years ago)
13:54:22 <AnMaster> especially at the typical "background noise" frequencies
13:54:55 * oerjan isn't sure DMM's explanation of why three satellites is needed is correct
13:55:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh? what would be wrong in it?
13:55:41 <oerjan> because you don't actually get the distance from the signal of a single satellite, i think, unless your receiver also has an atomic clock
13:55:58 <oerjan> you only get the _difference_ between the distances to the satellites
13:56:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, and are all the GPS satellites geostationary?
13:56:26 <AnMaster> or do they broadcast their own position?
13:56:34 <oerjan> they broadcast their position
13:56:51 <oklopol> also our dog has an awesome hearing but she's not that sensitive to loud noises
13:56:58 <oklopol> so i don't think there's necessarily a connection
13:58:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, different species. Could have a lot higher inherent noise insensitivity
13:58:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, and there are other factors than just how well you hear when considering noise sensitivity
13:58:55 <AnMaster> but I would maintain that (for humans at least) it is one of the factors
13:58:57 <oklopol> okay then; a friend of mine has a much better hearing than me, but is not at all sensitive to loud noises
13:59:23 <oerjan> i expect a lot of my noise sensitivity is psychological, anyway
13:59:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, better hearing at which freqs?
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13:59:58 <oklopol> like doesn't have to wear ear plugs in concerts whereas my ears start hurting if i use earphones for too long (good ones)
14:00:10 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes but if you are noise sensitive then hearing more noises than most people (due to better hearing) will only make it worse
14:00:17 <AnMaster> thus there is a connection in some sense
14:00:39 <oklopol> AnMaster: not tested, i just know i have an average hearing, and he can tell species of motorcycles by their sound
14:00:40 <oerjan> i'm _immensely_ annoyed by coughing and sniffling
14:00:53 <oklopol> or maybe i should say races
14:01:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, that depends on how loud. Some people are worse than others when it comes to coughing.
14:02:06 <oerjan> AnMaster: loudness is almost immaterial for me there
14:02:15 <oklopol> well at least with humans, i get insanely annoyed with machines all the time tho
14:04:59 <oklopol> err well actually i guess i have a better than average hearing
14:05:12 <oklopol> but i don't have a phenomenal hearing
14:05:49 <oklopol> i think one of my ears got the second best possible score when it was last checked
14:05:54 <oklopol> and the other one was perfect
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14:06:44 <oklopol> score, as in i didn't hear the highest note
14:07:08 <oerjan> ah, "Three satellites might seem enough to solve for position, since space has three dimensions and a position near the Earth's surface can be assumed. However, even a very small clock error multiplied by the very large speed of light[23].the speed at which satellite signals propagate.results in a large positional error. Therefore receivers use four or more satellites to solve for the receiver's location and time."
14:09:00 <oklopol> i don't exactly believe in light, has anyone actually SEEN light, like ever?
14:09:39 <oklopol> also i was asked to give a seminar on esoteric programming languages
14:10:15 <oklopol> (and on cellular automata)
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14:10:26 <oklopol> or well maybe more like presentation w/e
14:13:29 <oklopol> i'm not entirely sure about the CA talk because i have yet to read my first paper about that stuff
14:13:48 <Quadrescence> oklopol: want me to give the CA seminar instead
14:13:50 <oklopol> although i know the topology stuff from the theory of tiling
14:14:04 <oklopol> you like this computability stuff right?
14:16:41 <oklopol> i like it when the problems are interesting, but i guess i prefer it if the results are useless
14:17:48 <Quadrescence> At heart I'm someone who likes things to be implemented.
14:18:21 <Quadrescence> If the theory of computability can help me determine if something is implementable, great.
14:19:12 <oklopol> SO HAVE YOU GUYS SEEN THAT NEW HIP PAPER ABOUT FIXED POINT TILE SETS
14:22:41 <AnMaster> okay wtf. filling out a form has a question for age, with ranges like "31-40", "41-50" and so on. However there is "younger than 20" and "21-31". No option for exactly 20...
14:23:28 <oklopol> are 20-yo's supposed to be filling it?
14:23:41 <oerjan> AnMaster: clearly it was written by people with a specific hate against 20 year old pedants
14:23:59 <oklopol> are you sure there isn't a separate form for 20-yo's?
14:24:08 <AnMaster> oklopol, it is from my university, they are doing some survey on how you travel there. Like "by bus" "by car", ...
14:24:10 <Quadrescence> HOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLYYYYYYYYY SHITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
14:24:40 <oerjan> Quadrescence: your keyboard is hung up, hth
14:24:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, and I'm pretty sure it is aimed at 20 years old yes. Surely they know how old I am at the university.
14:25:08 <Quadrescence> "less than 20" was probs supposed to be "20 or less
14:25:14 <oerjan> AnMaster asking what hth means: shut up
14:25:42 <oerjan> I JUST WANTED TO SAVE YOU SOME WORK THERE
14:26:23 <oklopol> today there was this paper where they said it's in RE to check if a tile set has at least one tiling and all its tilings have exactly the periods (0, km) and (km, 0) for all k \in N
14:26:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, I assume that tile has some very specific meaning here?
14:27:18 <oerjan> um well you can emulate turing machines using tiles, so RE results or not exactly unexpected
14:27:21 <oklopol> you fill Z^2 with tiles, each tile has a color on each side
14:27:30 <oklopol> and the colors have to match
14:27:33 <oklopol> oerjan: but it's not in RE!
14:28:00 <oklopol> consider T1 \union T2 for some weird-ass set T2 and T1 which is m-periodic
14:28:12 <oerjan> oklopol: was this for _any_ set of tiles or a specific class?
14:28:39 <AnMaster> okay what are tiles in this context really?
14:28:50 <oklopol> you fill Z^2 with tiles, each tile has a color on each side
14:28:52 <oklopol> and the colors have to match
14:29:07 <oklopol> like top and bottom have to be the same if a tile is on top of another
14:29:33 <oerjan> wait are these tiles squares?
14:29:50 <oerjan> so not jigsaw puzzles here :D
14:29:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, sounds like a game I remember playing ages ago, but there it wasn't Z² but a 6x6 gird
14:30:06 <oklopol> no you can translate jigsaw to wang
14:30:27 <oklopol> and reasonable jigsaw to wang
14:30:46 <oerjan> the other way would require the jigsaw pieces to have compatible sizes i guess...
14:30:56 <AnMaster> ah indeed wang tiles does seem like those used in that game. Thought it was a bad joke at first. ;P
14:31:05 <oklopol> in some sense. i don't know much about the geometric aspect
14:31:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: i can't, i don't know anything about the geometric aspect
14:31:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, also you forgot 3D jigsaws
14:31:41 <AnMaster> presumably you meant 2D ones only?
14:31:57 <oklopol> i said Z^2, obviously you can do any Z^n
14:32:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, well but you couldn't translate a Z^3 jigsaw to Z^2 wang tiles right?
14:32:49 <AnMaster> btw that gave me an idea for a game, jigsaw on a torus.
14:33:00 <oklopol> anyway all the problems are undecidable for wangs so you they are undecidable for more general sets too; the translation from wangs to jigsaws is trivial, you just add bumps
14:34:23 <oklopol> AnMaster: no you can't translate a R^3 jigsaw to Z^2 wang tiles, you can't even translate R^2-jig to Z^2-wang in general
14:35:00 <AnMaster> but weren't those two statements equivalent? Or is jig != jigsaw?
14:35:21 <oerjan> oklopol: you said this was a paper so i presume the proof was non-obvious
14:35:22 <AnMaster> (well, the latter is a person, but in the context of that sentence I meant)
14:35:29 <oklopol> wang = wang tile, jig = jigsaw tile, i meant any shape homeomorphic to a ball
14:35:52 <oklopol> oerjan: the proof for RE was "obviously"
14:35:59 <AnMaster> oh wait, I misread that as innuendo. doh
14:37:03 <oklopol> what they were actually proving was E and O are in RE and inseparable, where E and O are tile sets that are m-periodic with even and odd m respectively
14:37:21 <oklopol> it's true they are inseparable (the nontrivial part), but the RE claim is not true
14:37:48 <oklopol> *E and O are the families of tile sets ...
14:37:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, so make an article disproving it?
14:38:23 <oklopol> it was like lemma 56 with "this claim is not actually interesting by itself, but illustrates the technique well" above it
14:39:02 <oerjan> um so the paper was wrong?
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14:39:29 <oklopol> wrong about RE, right about the nontrivial part of inseparability
14:41:06 <oklopol> i just wanted to insert my version of wtf someone made a mistake
14:41:43 <oklopol> also they probably meant to say that an m-periodic tile set is one that allows at least one tiling with period m in both directions, this is obviously in R
14:41:49 <oerjan> oklopol: you were not initially very clear about this being why you said wtf ;)
14:43:16 <oklopol> i prefer unclear conversations
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14:44:49 <oklopol> <oerjan> um well you can emulate turing machines using tiles, so RE results or not exactly unexpected <<< do you just know from wp or something or have you read stuff about this
14:45:02 <oklopol> well i guess that's folklore
14:45:06 <oerjan> "or something", i guess
14:45:24 <oklopol> did you know affine maps can emulate turing machines in R^2 and up?
14:46:17 <oerjan> i cannot quite connect the concept of affine maps to emulating anything, there...
14:46:35 <oklopol> basically you have (r_1, q + r_2) as state, you can move on the tape by multiplication by constant, and change state and tape values by adding constantes
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14:48:20 <oerjan> um you mean using an affine map as the machine state?
14:48:37 <oklopol> and also turns out you can emulate affine maps with tilings (my supervisors idea), which i'm trying to use to add new fun properties to aperiodic sets
14:48:45 <oklopol> no machine state is two reals
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14:49:14 <oklopol> then depending on the square you're in, which depends on q and the first digits of r_i's (tops of stacks)
14:49:19 <oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
14:49:32 <Quadrescence> "you move on the tape and shit" ~quote of the day
14:50:02 <oerjan> oh well. but conditioning on the square you're in is not an affine operation afaik
14:50:37 <oklopol> oh sorry i guess the term is partial affine maps or something
14:50:45 <oerjan> `addquote <oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
14:50:55 <HackEgo> 166|<oklopol> you move on the tape and shit
14:51:18 <oklopol> you split the domain in some sort of areas and there's an affine map for each domain
14:51:49 <oklopol> a frequent thingie to do in dynamic systems stuffology
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14:52:11 <oerjan> yeah, i've mingled with people who did that sort of thing :D
14:52:31 <oerjan> (tilings and translation stuff)
14:52:49 <oklopol> in 1d most problems become decidable, if the affine map is continuous, but if it's not then no one knows anything
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14:53:45 <oklopol> i first heard the term like two weeks ago
14:55:25 <oerjan> oklopol: i find that unlikely, given that it's in the title of at least some of my articles i believe
14:55:46 <oklopol> i meant decidability stuff
14:55:54 <oklopol> if you know about that, it would be VERY useful
14:56:41 <oerjan> i don't think we did much of that no
14:58:26 <oklopol> well okay i guess it's not that important anymore, my current problems are related to immortality of turing machines, so if you know good anything about that stuff, would be useful
14:59:45 <oklopol> basically i need to enforce certain properties for tm output no matter what tape it's started on, and usually it's complicated to prove this stuff because a tm like that can't do any sort of unbounded search
15:00:10 <oklopol> the initial random tape can have infinitely many non-blanks
15:01:47 <oklopol> i mean a tm whose output has some property given any initial tape can't have any sort of repetitive behavior because you can cheat it into some sort of infloop
15:02:30 <oerjan> ok i retract that, all the articles i thought of just seem to just say "minimal systems" in the title
15:03:02 <oerjan> dynamical systems that are minimal, of course *cough*
15:03:04 <oklopol> affine systems with no closed subsystems?
15:03:32 <oerjan> every orbit is a dense subset, is one of the equivalent formulations
15:04:16 <oklopol> okay that's actually exactly the kind of stuff i would've needed last week
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15:04:45 <oerjan> another is that there are no closed or open subsets preserved by the dynamics, other than the empty set and the whole space
15:05:06 <oklopol> preserved as in maps to inside it?
15:06:01 <oerjan> at least those are equivalent in the context we studied (single transformation on a compact hausdorff space)
15:07:15 <oerjan> (that's sort of obvious because the closure of an orbit is a preserved set)
15:07:34 <oklopol> i would've needed some sort of ways to show a system of affine maps does not have a period
15:07:36 <oerjan> *invariant set, may be the terminology
15:09:18 <oerjan> and well minimal systems don't have periods, true, but minimal is a pretty strong condition
15:09:31 <oerjan> oklopol: or homeomorphic to it
15:09:49 <oklopol> it, because they are all homeomorphic to each other
15:12:08 <oerjan> oklopol: hm that repetitive behavior of a tm, it occurs to me you can control things somewhat by making sure the stuff you've already seen is in a known format
15:12:39 <oerjan> so what's to the left of the tape head isn't a problem
15:14:15 <oerjan> although if you then move left, you need to be sure the boundary to the unknown region is clearly marked so it doesn't trick you when you move back...
15:15:19 <oerjan> ah. well you need to make sure the beginning is clearly marked too, then
15:15:34 <oklopol> if you at some point need to go back to the marker
15:15:43 <oklopol> what i failed to mention is
15:15:49 <oklopol> the turing machine can also start in any state :)
15:15:58 <oklopol> so if you at some point have to go to a marker...
15:16:39 <oerjan> indeed now it looks hard
15:16:55 <oklopol> i have to assume anything can happen because we're encoding all this in a real number and the affine system has to have convex and compact domains
15:17:37 <oklopol> for minsky machines it's trivial to show mortality is undecidable, the "stacks" have a finite number, so you just have some counter N, simulate N steps, reboot and simulate 2N and so on
15:17:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Can someone sum up what you have been talking about over the last ~2 hours?
15:18:52 <Phantom_Hoover> (Incidentally, I found the thing about ICBMs rather funny)
15:19:20 <oerjan> it's rather obvious once you think of it
15:20:45 <oerjan> that you don't want terrorists to be able to use GPS for missiles
15:20:58 <oerjan> using commercially available parts
15:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Or do the satellites not send enough data to calculate?
15:21:33 <oklopol> no they can make missiles but gps is too hard
15:21:55 <oklopol> well it probably actually is a lot harder, i haven't tried making either
15:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Is the technology secret, or just nigh-impossible to build at home?
15:22:29 <oklopol> also who cares about GPS and IWC when there's tiles involved
15:23:00 <oklopol> i'm a professional jigsaw puzzle composer
15:23:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't think it's secret but it will be harder for the terrorists if they need to get their own expertise and maybe even factories...
15:23:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, I think jigsaws and Wang tiles are equivalent.
15:23:44 <oerjan> although they can probably just buy from North Korea :(
15:23:53 <oklopol> there was a piece of discussion about that
15:24:11 <oklopol> but wang tiles can be compiled into jigsaws by adding bumps and dents
15:25:38 <oklopol> first thing you do one a tilings course
15:25:47 <oerjan> the other way around apparently has subtleties
15:27:18 <oklopol> so Phantom_Hoover do you know all about aperiodic tile sets
15:27:32 <oerjan> (i'm really misquoting oklopol there)
15:28:00 <oklopol> and aperiodic tile set is one that allows tilings, but no periodic ones
15:28:18 <oerjan> aperiodic is pretty essential for those tile sets that turn into minimal dynamical systems, iirc
15:28:48 <oklopol> yeah penrose tiles are one of the geometric constructions
15:29:41 <oerjan> i _think_ the space of penrose tiles under translation was a minimal system
15:30:00 <oklopol> there are 3 known ways to make aperiodic tiles, one is the geometric ones that have some sort of recursive structure (although the details can vary lots), then there's the all-new fixed point tile sets that can do almost anything, and then there's the one based on beatty sequences made by my supervisor (smallest known)
15:30:08 <oerjan> they probably need to be at least somewhat compatibly oriented
15:30:25 <oklopol> oerjan: you've done tiling minimality stuff?
15:30:49 <oklopol> argh, it's been like two weeks and i still don't know anything :<
15:30:54 <oerjan> as i said above, i've mingled with that kind of people
15:31:04 <oklopol> i should go read stuff prolly
15:32:31 <oerjan> as for those 3 ways, does it include cutting planes of higher dimensional tilings?
15:32:49 <oerjan> i think i recall penrose tilings could be got by cutting something five-dimensional
15:32:54 <oklopol> i don't know of proofs that were originally based on those
15:32:59 <oerjan> or something like that
15:33:06 <oklopol> but yeah i suppose that's different
15:33:34 <oklopol> i think penroses were just later noted to be cuts like that, or something
15:33:41 <oerjan> hm or maybe it was just 3, but with a suitable angle
15:34:01 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: if i'm something, then i'm a mathematician; but i don't think i'm anything yet
15:34:20 <oerjan> yeah it may not have been penrose's original construction. then i don't really recall.
15:34:47 <oklopol> oerjan: so i guess the third category is "geometrical stuff"
15:35:09 <oklopol> ones where you actually think about them as tiles and not just local constraints on C^(Z^2)
15:36:04 <oklopol> the geometric ones aren't nearly as flexible as the fixed point thing (where you can basically make a tm compute anything on the tape), and hopefully the thing i'm doing now
15:36:25 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: elements of that are integer lattices filled with elements of C
15:36:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oklopol has switched from computer science to mathematics since he came here
15:37:00 * oerjan wonders if he's responsible for that
15:37:04 <oklopol> well the cartesian product Z * Z
15:38:27 <oerjan> C is just an arbitrary set here, i presume
15:38:30 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: the set of pairs with both elements of Z
15:38:34 <oklopol> oerjan: yes, i hit a random key
15:38:56 <oerjan> although i would suppose the complex numbers _would_ be big enough for all your needs
15:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> You could have picked T, or, W, or something without a well-known prior definition, but noooo.
15:39:47 <oklopol> A^B is the set of functions f : B -> A, A^2 is the cartesian product of A with itself
15:40:02 <oklopol> oh you were confused about complexes right
15:40:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_(group)
15:40:39 <oklopol> in that case, what oerjan said, you can interpret it as complex numbers
15:40:58 <oklopol> i was thinking of just lattice as a geometrical idea, but okay :P
15:42:08 <oerjan> oklopol: well, this is as opposed to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattice_(order)
15:42:42 <oklopol> i just had the exam about universal algebra btw, GUESS HOW IT WENT
15:42:57 <oerjan> (a completely different meaning, although there is probably _some_ connection (almost _everything_ in math is connected to the latter one, isn't it)
15:43:14 <oklopol> well there's a connection between the geometric intuition and both of them
15:44:26 <oerjan> oklopol: well i guess you aced it, as otherwise you would have been miserably complaining already if i know you ;D
15:44:44 <oklopol> yeah not much to complain this year, i've been studied much more
15:45:28 <oklopol> math is more motivating than programming for mobile phones and software engineering
15:45:36 <oerjan> oh forgetting to eat again
15:48:46 <oklopol> i should eat too, although my stomach hurts from drinking coffee all day
15:50:12 <oklopol> oerjan: you may be partly responsible, but i think it was more the math courses i took, so don't feel bad
15:51:06 <oklopol> it wasn't exactly a calculated decision, i was told i should switch to math and i was like fuck that's true
15:51:58 <oklopol> at some point all my cs had been replaced with math cells, without me knowing it
15:53:02 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> You could have picked T, or, W, or something without a well-known prior definition, but noooo. <-- he didn't use unicode blackboard bold chars
15:53:09 <AnMaster> if he had it would have been way more confusing
15:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> But *no-one* uses them here, and he used Z for the nats.
15:53:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I use unicode notation if I remember to and I'm not too lazy
15:54:14 <oerjan> oklopol: it's not like i would feel bad even if i were responsible, though ;D
15:55:22 * oerjan cackles evilly just for good measure
15:58:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Leading impressionable youth into your evil line of "mathematics".
15:58:54 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: why not do like oerjan and read my mind :P
15:59:24 <oklopol> that's the first thing you do when you don't understand something
16:00:44 <oklopol> oerjan: i presume A, U and M are arbitrary sets there
16:01:07 <AnMaster> oklopol, is that the product of the sets or something then?
16:02:30 <oklopol> usually i've seen it mean the multiplication of pairs of elements of the languages X and Y
16:02:49 <oklopol> i mean {xy | x \in X, y \in Y}
16:03:22 <oklopol> but if there isn't a multiplication then cartesian product might be the next logical interpretation
16:03:33 <oklopol> in the logic of intuitivity
16:04:02 <AnMaster> argh is it just me or has the download system on sf.net gotten slower and more complex to use over time?
16:04:18 <oklopol> but bye for now, oerjan can say my lines from now on ->
16:28:45 -!- Tritonio_GR has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:32:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I once ticked all of the boxes in a survey according to the Thue-Morse sequence.
16:34:00 * oerjan did that for his suitcase combination
16:36:49 * oerjan chants the ancient curse of eyjafjallajökull at Phantom_Hoover
16:37:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, Thue-Morse sequence?
16:38:19 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it has great powers to thwart your plane flight
16:39:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, Norway has that maelstrom iirc
16:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Start with 0, then concatenate it with the complement
16:39:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, could also get into issues from volcano
16:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: So iterating it goes 0, 01, 0110, 01101001...
16:40:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm why does that remind me of gray code...
16:41:27 * Phantom_Hoover uses a Kolmogorov machine to teleport into oerjan's office
16:41:44 <oerjan> ^ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~::^S!^*a~^~*a*~:^):^
16:41:45 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
16:42:08 -!- lament has joined.
16:42:22 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:42:27 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:42:57 * AnMaster tries to imagine a gray code computer.
16:43:20 <AnMaster> I wonder how to represent a signed number in gray code
16:44:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm? an n-bit gray code encoding can be mapped 1:1 to an n-bit binary encoding
16:45:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well yes that is the point that they differ by only 1 bit between any pair of numbers next to each other
16:46:33 <AnMaster> but it still goes through all combinations. For an example:
16:47:17 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, while an adder for a 4 bit gray code number would probably be quite a pain it shouldn't be impossible
16:48:08 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, another important thing with gray code is of course that there is only one bit difference between first and last element too
16:49:33 <AnMaster> I wonder how infeasible basic arithmetic would be in gray code...
16:49:58 <oklopol> i don't know why i asked that :P
16:50:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Encoder_Disc_%283-Bit%29.svg
16:50:51 <AnMaster> oklopol, imagine that is a disk used in some machinery to read the angle of rotation
16:51:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, it uses lamps and sensors to see if an area is black or white
16:51:29 <AnMaster> oklopol, now in practise these might not be perfectly aligned
16:51:45 <AnMaster> resulting in you could get an inconsistent reading when right at an edge between two values
16:52:16 <AnMaster> with a binary coding you could end up at the wrong side of the disc in your reading that way
16:52:20 <oklopol> so what you're saying is "of course, because that makes most sense"
16:52:33 <oklopol> and not "of course, because the last one is forced"
16:52:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, and since it is a circle it must match up between max value and least value
16:52:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, I know the engineering reason for it :P
16:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Doing addition and subtraction mechanically would be easy.
16:54:14 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
16:55:23 <oklopol> it has a very regular structure so you could imagine there's a faster addition than looped increment (i guess maybe you could just translate between binary?)
16:55:30 <Phantom_Hoover> With one of the wheels, a non-destructive copy routine.
16:56:20 <oklopol> (i interpreted your "mechanically" as "")
16:57:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should tell those Rube Goldberg computer people about it...
16:57:41 <oklopol> okay so grey -> binary should be easy, first bit is first bit, then you just invert or something if the first bit was one and recurse
16:58:01 <oklopol> i don't remember the exact construction, but i think there's some simple way
16:58:37 <oklopol> math is all about cheating :P
16:58:58 -!- hiato has joined.
16:58:59 <oklopol> once you know how to do it with the translations
16:59:09 -!- hiato has quit (Client Quit).
16:59:13 <oklopol> you can try to do it without them by just looking at what it's doing
16:59:30 -!- hiato has joined.
17:00:07 <oerjan> hm, is the thue-morse sequence simply the last bits of the gray codes?
17:00:31 <oklopol> well how are the grey codes constructed?
17:00:56 <oerjan> ^ul ((0)(1)):^!S(~::^S!^*a~^~*a*~:^):^
17:00:56 <fungot> 011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010011001011001101001011010011001011010010110011010010110100110010110011010011001011010010110011010010110 ...too much output!
17:01:12 <oerjan> it cannot be, because it sometimes changes twice in a row
17:01:27 <oklopol> i recall in grey codes you first do some 2^n lines L and then you add a one in the beginning and do L's inverted or something
17:01:39 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster: Doing addition and subtraction mechanically would be easy. <-- yes but I meant electronically
17:01:53 <oerjan> which would mean it got back where you started since only one bit can change at a time for the gray code
17:01:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also, multiplication and division looks *really* tricky
17:03:00 <AnMaster> <oklopol> it has a very regular structure so you could imagine there's a faster addition than looped increment (i guess maybe you could just translate between binary?) <-- as I said above I was considering a computer that only used gray code, no binary encoding
17:03:22 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps I should tell those Rube Goldberg computer people about it... <-- what?
17:03:34 <oklopol> oh you don't reverse or flip any bit sequences, you just do R in reverse order
17:03:41 <AnMaster> (if it was a joke I'm disappointed!)
17:03:45 <oklopol> L being the bit strings used sofar
17:04:12 <AnMaster> <oklopol> okay so grey -> binary should be easy, first bit is first bit, then you just invert or something if the first bit was one and recurse <-- iirc the standard way is some xor gate net
17:04:14 <oklopol> 0 1 11 10 110 111 101 100 1100 1101 1111 1110 ...
17:04:19 <AnMaster> or was that for computing parity?
17:04:33 <oklopol> or at least that way you can make a thingie that always changes one bit
17:05:38 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:06:01 <oerjan> hm it would seem the last bit of gray code just goes 0110 indefinitely
17:06:40 <oerjan> and each other bit does the same, just slower
17:06:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is a trivial result of how gray code is generated
17:07:04 <oklopol> first they go 0110, let that be a_0, then you always add the same things in the reverse order, so a_(i+1) = a_i (a_i)^-1
17:07:11 <oerjan> AnMaster: well yeah it was just relevant to my thue-morse question
17:07:56 <oklopol> and w w^-1 iterated with that rule is always just (w w^-1)^n's
17:08:12 <oklopol> not exactly those but among those
17:09:31 -!- tombom has joined.
17:09:41 <oklopol> "<AnMaster> oerjan, that is a trivial result of how gray code is generated" <<< i retract my statement, proof by AnMaster is better
17:10:23 <oerjan> oklopol: um you were saying the same thing
17:10:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, I did not consider that it needed any proof. It should be self evident if you know the algorithm for generating it.
17:10:33 <oklopol> oerjan: but i started rambling
17:10:46 <oklopol> AnMaster: that's what i said
17:11:08 <oklopol> seriously, read my mind and not my messages
17:11:24 <AnMaster> oklopol, I can't. Distance too large
17:13:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Did no-one read the thing on the Rube Goldberg computer?
17:15:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I looked at it. Somewhat interesting
17:16:14 -!- ineiros_ has joined.
17:18:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I have a better idea for the pneumatic ram
17:18:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is, for how to read it
17:19:07 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, suction, and check if you get an under-preasure in the tube. Then the cone connected to it is blocked
17:19:30 <AnMaster> rather than having conducting balls and some wires
17:19:57 <AnMaster> of course I'm not sure how feasible it would be to get a tight enough fit for that
17:25:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why are they using 8 bit words btw
17:25:11 <AnMaster> it seems silly to _not_ use something else in this case
17:39:16 <oerjan> ^ul ( )S((S(0 )S)(S(1 )S))(~:^()~^!:^*(:)~*a~^~*(:)~*a*~:^):^
17:39:16 <fungot> 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 ...too much output!
17:40:20 <oerjan> ^ul ( )S((S(0 )S)(S(1 )S))(~:^()~^!:^*((0)~*:)~*a~^~*((1)~*:)~*a*~:^):^
17:40:21 <fungot> 1 11 10 111 110 010 011 1111 1110 0110 0111 0010 0011 1011 1010 11111 11110 01110 01111 00110 00111 10111 10110 00010 00011 10011 10010 11011 11010 01010 01011 111111 111110 011110 011111 001110 001111 101111 101110 000110 000111 100111 100110 110111 110110 010110 010111 000010 000011 100011 100010 110011 110010 010010 01 ...too much output!
18:11:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, Norway's coastline has a Hausdorff dimension of 1.52
18:13:11 <oerjan> that's norway, always bringing chaos to the world
18:16:43 -!- Tritonio_GR has joined.
18:26:00 -!- alise has joined.
18:26:38 <alise> 02:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> elliottcable: What's the language for?
18:26:39 <alise> 02:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, your first name is suspiciously similar to that of alise.
18:26:39 <alise> 02:37:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I've never seen the two of you in the same place.
18:26:41 <alise> Probably because I hate him.
18:27:04 <alise> Heh, it uses Unicode excessively. Why am I not surprised?
18:27:09 <oerjan> and everyone else trying to leech off your precious name
18:27:52 <alise> Why is it that I never feel comfortable on a Friday before my palms sweat?
18:27:57 <alise> Mysteries of the universe.
18:28:46 <Zuu> No one tried my language yet?
18:29:10 <Zuu> my RegexPL language
18:29:26 <alise> oerjan: er what exactly.
18:29:36 <alise> It's truth, though: my hands feel icky until I do.
18:29:41 <Zuu> oklopol: Regular Expression Programming Language :P
18:30:27 <oklopol> alise: that's a weird thing to not feel comfortable before happening
18:31:24 <Zuu> oklopol: i've described it here: http://zuu.dk/regexpl.php
18:31:32 <alise> Probably it's some crazy psychological washing the unit off or somet</Freud>
18:31:57 <alise> "the virtual home" What, that website is not a physical establishment?
18:32:28 <Zuu> I dont know if someone else have made something remotely similar, but it is a quite different way of performing computation than soo many other programming languages
18:32:46 <AnMaster> <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, Norway's coastline has a Hausdorff dimension of 1.52 <-- how do you compute that?
18:32:52 <alise> So; I thought I was getting next week off. I am not.
18:32:53 <Zuu> alise: yeah :P
18:33:18 <alise> I thought that, at least, I would get sufficient time to meet up with some friends; even though some couldn't make it it would still be better than nothing. Nope; I don't have any two days off in a row.
18:33:28 <alise> Here is the ludicrous schedule for next week:
18:33:35 <alise> Monday -- bank holiday
18:33:41 <alise> Tuesday -- come in on the afternoon, IIRC, as day patient
18:33:50 <alise> Thursday -- come in /and then sleep as an inpatient/
18:33:59 <alise> Friday -- leave at 10:30, making the sleeping utterly pointless.
18:34:25 <alise> I may just stop bothering to make sense of anything, and go crazy.
18:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> If bureaucracy had a point, it would be something else.
18:35:20 <alise> It's more like a dictatorship in this instance.
18:35:29 <alise> They get sexual pleasure from authority, I think.
18:35:33 <alise> It is the only way to explain their actions.
18:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone who wants to be in a position of power is almost certainly unfit to hold it.
18:37:43 <alise> The unit is a wonderful collision of all sorts of incompetency.
18:38:13 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
18:38:40 <alise> Extreme power, bad psychology & psychiatry (which is, I might add, almost entirely all of it: this isn't some fringe unit, this is part of the national health service), ...
18:39:19 * Phantom_Hoover impulsively wants to calculate the dimensions of the Rorschach inkblots
18:39:36 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Imagine a tiny, tiny boarding school (no homosexuality tho) that teaches far, far below your intelligence. Imagine it has "group time" in-between lessons, of which there are only two in a day, and are almost always taught by the same person. Now imagine you can't have a computer or a mobile.
18:39:50 <alise> Add a dash of patronisation and bullshit psychology --
18:40:16 <alise> -- and various threats to force you to go there like the Mental Health Act and in my case even being threatened with being fostered if my mother doesn't make me attend --
18:40:20 <alise> and you end up with the unit.
18:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> If you don't know anything about neural networks I will have to start taking my frustration on family members.
18:44:33 <Phantom_Hoover> And patronisation pervades everyone claiming to be trying to help you.
18:47:41 -!- Oranjer has joined.
18:48:30 <Oranjer> jer being the first three letters of my name
18:49:37 <Oranjer> besides, orange is more orange than oranges, you know that
18:50:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, but orange was named after oranges, so oranges are the orange against which all other orange is measures.
18:51:55 <Oranjer> the concept has evolved away from its namesake
18:52:16 <Oranjer> now we have other orange things to measure orange with
18:53:46 <Phantom_Hoover> One of them derives directly from oranges; the other is generally brown from abuse.
19:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/images/f/f7/Capture_eb416eade6d81876a512df8d3dcb298b2c2f540b.png From the guy who brought you the Richard Dawkins Project
19:05:03 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:Aschlafly#Considering_An_Open_Letter_to_Richard_Dawkins_at_Conservapedia <-- More insane
19:22:31 <alise> Concrete Roman si a strange, but likeable, font.
19:26:33 <Oranjer> hey now, appearance of information is quite important
19:27:10 <alise> Also, liking a font is being a typography nerd now? Boy, as a typography nerd, can I just say that I am sorely upset at the dumbing-down of its requirements.
19:27:20 <alise> Also, what?! AMS Euler doesn't have bold?
19:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> No, you've previously demonstrated dangerous typographical urges!
19:29:39 <alise> Something wrong with typography? :-)
19:30:35 <pikhq> Only an EVIL person would use something other than Microsoft Word!
19:31:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Typography is the granddaddy of both (good) design, information presentation, and interfaces.
19:32:39 <alise> I like how Concrete Roman makes your document look like it was typed out on a typewriter, except it still looks typographically good.
19:33:02 <pikhq> alise: That's quite a feat.
19:33:10 <alise> Well, this is Knuth we're talking about...
19:33:33 <pikhq> Oh, right, it is Knuth.
19:33:59 <pikhq> A guy who went on sabbatical to learn how to do typography right so he could teach a computer how to do it right. :)
19:35:02 <alise> Anyway, so I noticed that the (a,b)-representing-(a-b) construction of Z and the (a,b)-representing-(a/b) construction of Q are very, very similar.
19:35:11 <alise> In fact, they are the same transformation -- on N and Z, respectively!
19:35:31 <alise> Consider a set S and a binary operation * : (S,S) -> S with identity element e.
19:35:46 <alise> (a,b) ~ (c,d) = (a*b = c*d)
19:35:52 <alise> (a,b) *' (c,d) = (a*b, c*d)
19:36:08 <alise> Er, wait, that one is wrong.
19:36:13 <alise> (a,b) *' (c,d) = (a*c, b*d)
19:36:19 <alise> (a,b) *i (c,d) = (a*d, b*c)
19:36:48 <alise> Then we have *' being the analogy to * and *i the inversion.
19:42:36 <alise> Is this a well-known transformation? It must be; it's so trivial.
19:44:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:45:33 <alise> Dilemma when using a significantly different body and mathematics font: To follow, or not, the standard punctuation rule of putting punctuation in the end of quotes, instead of outside them, or not.
19:46:05 <alise> Things usually flow better if you put the punctuation inside the mathematics, but for "." this is not so; the "." in mathematical fonts are usually much thicker and bolder than those in text fonts, so things look a bit strange.
19:48:01 * alise puts all punctuation inside apart from "." for now. But that seems so strange.
19:48:55 <Oranjer> well, I heard that you know someone's a programmer if they put punctuation on the outside in writing
19:49:08 <pikhq> Oranjer: ... Or British.
19:49:45 <alise> pikhq: I must admit I find myself putting some punctuation on the inside.
19:50:11 <alise> Having a seeming "space" between the space where the quote mark is (which are so high up they're "invisible" in a way) and the punctuation.
19:50:40 <alise> Anyway, just in case nobody's written about this transformation before (p ~= 0), I am hereby the first: http://filebin.ca/owxsdu/extend.pdf
19:51:02 <alise> And yes, I just did that for the very remote possibility it's not a known thing.
19:51:02 <pikhq> alise: You realise that the only reason why punctuation ends up inside is that the quote mark slugs where small, right? :P
19:51:32 <alise> pikhq: Well, a lot of things are silly.
19:51:40 <alise> "ou" spellings are a hypercorrection, for instance.
19:52:31 <alise> For mathematical fonts it's different.
19:52:44 <alise> Since you have a mathematical-font character and then a jarring differently-styled punctuation mark right after.
19:55:21 <alise> pikhq: Anyway -- "According to the Cambridge Handbook for Editors, Copy-editors and Proofreaders, periods and commas that are part of the persons speech are permitted inside the quotation marks regardless."
19:55:29 <alise> Which covers most instances such as, say, speech.
19:57:51 <alise> I like Middle English.
19:58:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:00:07 <alise> Hey, does anyone want to tell me how Lost ended? I don't know a fucking thing about it, so this should be fun.
20:00:22 <alise> Well, I know a thing or two.
20:00:48 <alise> :PO; what species are you exactly?
20:01:15 <alise> [[The flash sideways is revealed to be a type of purgatory for the main characters, where they reside until accepting their life and death, and are then able to "let go" and "move on."]]
20:01:25 <alise> Wait a second... that was the ending of Ashes to Ashes, too.
20:01:34 <alise> Must. Create. Conspiracy. Theory...
20:01:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:06:53 <Sgeo> alise, I want to make a rap involving certain differences in programming languages
20:07:42 <Sgeo> At first, I thought maybe on the subtle differences in assignment, but I think equality and identity comparision might be more useful, because those tend to vary more widely and insanely
20:08:15 -!- cheater99 has joined.
20:08:37 <alise> Sgeo: you're insane.
20:08:50 <alise> And you know you're really insane, because I'm insane, and even I think (sanely) that you're insane.
20:08:51 <cheater99> it is parametrized, how do i decide what setup cost i should be using? i understand it is dictated by the hardware the attacker might be using
20:08:59 <alise> cheater99: are you hashing passwords?
20:09:05 <Sgeo> It's not going to have all languages
20:09:06 <alise> cheater99: use bcrypt
20:09:18 <Sgeo> It probably needs to include PHP though, which I know nothing about
20:09:27 <cheater99> but i don't know what complexity to use
20:09:40 <alise> cheater99: well, is this an irc server or a bank?
20:09:52 <alise> btw, it's not Blowfish that's parameterised; it's bcrypt.
20:10:01 <alise> Anyway, the default for at least the Python library is 12, but you can get away with a lot more than that.
20:10:18 <alise> cheater99: Just pick a big value such that making it much bigger would make password hashing take an unreasonable amount of time.
20:10:25 <alise> Sure, this will be excessive, but it's not like that's harmful.
20:10:31 <cheater99> but how do i know if it's good or not?
20:10:54 <alise> It's ridiculously secure so even low values like 12 should be good.
20:10:58 <cheater99> i don't want 2 people logging in at the same time to take down the server.
20:11:03 <alise> But if I were in charge of a bank I'd go higher.
20:11:15 <alise> cheater99: Then experiment with values until it's fast.
20:11:25 <alise> http://www.openbsd.org/papers/bcrypt-paper.ps is the paper; maybe it has some suggestions.
20:11:27 <cheater99> but then it might not be secure enough.
20:12:18 <pikhq> How likely do you figure are people to spend thousands of computer-years trying to crack a single password?
20:12:27 <alise> cheater99: why not? What OS?
20:12:42 <alise> If Windows, I don't know; Google it or something. If Linux, yes you can. If OS X, yes you can.
20:12:46 <alise> If phone, get a computer :-)
20:12:56 <alise> (Or if it's an iPhone, I think you can still; I know it does PDFs.)
20:13:31 <cheater99> alise: linux on gprs and no software to read ps
20:14:16 <cheater99> pikhq, i need to understand what complexity takes how long to break a password
20:14:33 <alise> cheater99: gprs -- so mobile.
20:14:34 <pikhq> cheater99: You're scaling between hundreds of years and millions of years.
20:14:39 <alise> Or, just bad mobile internet.
20:14:45 <alise> cheater99: do you have xpdf? Evince?
20:15:32 <cheater99> pikhq, what is a reputable source that quotes those numbers?
20:15:41 <cheater99> and what year was that estimation made?
20:16:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's called a rhetorical question.
20:16:31 <pikhq> alise: Perhaps you could ps2ascii for him?
20:18:16 <alise> || || /` | | /~~\ ||
20:18:17 <alise> ||==|| | ~\ | | | |
20:18:17 <alise> || || \___ |, |, \~~/ **
20:18:48 <pikhq> Holy fuck that sucks.
20:18:58 <cheater99> how do i make the connection of complexity <-> number of years required to crack
20:19:41 <alise> pikhq: no, I did that manually :D
20:19:53 <alise> I thought it was quite good thank you very much!
20:20:03 <alise> cheater99: magic; anyway, I think the paper has a sum
20:20:44 <Sgeo> I'm hallucinating. I thought I heard my computer beep lightly, but the sound's all the way down, and no one pinged me on IRC or anything
20:21:27 <alise> Sgeo: I do that often.
20:23:32 <alise> It irritates me that there aren't any really good mathematical fonts.
20:23:51 <alise> Let me guess; Computer Modern?
20:24:02 <alise> But it's Didone, for heaven's sake!
20:24:18 <alise> Congratulations; you don't know what a font is.
20:24:34 <alise> Please go to your nearest euthanisation booth.
20:24:45 <alise> Do you even know what TeX /is/? Or what Computer Modern is?
20:24:59 <alise> Replying to "[request for font]" with "TeX" makes no sense!
20:25:14 <alise> Presumably you mean TeX's /default/ font -- which is ABSOLUTELY changeable -- Computer Modern!
20:25:26 <alise> Which I already preempted and responded to: <alise> But it's Didone, for heaven's sake!
20:26:08 <alise> I have my grievances with TeX-the-typesetting-system too, but that's neither here nor there.
20:26:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's ghastly.
20:26:30 <alise> Computer Modern is admittedly one of the better specimens of Didonicity.
20:26:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why does shit stink?
20:26:43 <alise> Because it's stinky.
20:26:50 <Phantom_Hoover> It's a font! It specifies a way for symbols to be displayed on the screen!
20:26:57 <alise> No, actually, it's a typeface.
20:27:11 <alise> And it specifies some constraints with parameters on abstract glyphs.
20:27:38 <alise> Computer Modern's sans variation, for instance, is produced merely by setting the relevant serif-controlling parameters of Computer Modern to zero.
20:27:46 <alise> Similar with the bold font, etc.
20:27:54 <alise> Not sure about the italic font.
20:28:36 <alise> Because for a font F, Didonicity(F) is almost exactly equal to Fugly(F).
20:28:54 <alise> Sometimes there is a very large value of DesignerWithGoodTaste(F) which outweighs this; the only known example is Computer Modern.
20:29:10 <cheater99> alise, computer modern is a family of typefaces
20:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Dear god, I never thought I'd *ever* be having a heated discussion over this.
20:29:21 <alise> cheater99: Okay, okay, you win the pedant war. :)
20:29:30 <alise> But you don't win the MORAL HIGH-GROUND!
20:29:53 <cheater99> i didn't intend to - i enjoy being immoral
20:30:02 <cheater99> now explain this complexity parameter to me
20:30:12 <alise> cheater99: No, vagrant.
20:30:23 <alise> DIE: The moral high-ground
20:30:27 <cheater99> alise, that's King Vagrant for you
20:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> It's typesetting! You make words and stuff, it appears on the screen! Morals don't come into it!
20:31:25 <alise> "Typesetting/typography -- it's about words and stuff."
20:31:30 <alise> I hate you for saying that!
20:31:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
20:32:08 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.3738 \ wunderbar_emporium
20:32:13 <HackEgo> ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ marco \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ roll \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ swedish \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram
20:33:25 <cheater99> alise, besides, you lose any moral ground since you're by default on the wrong end of the antiqua-fraktur dispute
20:33:42 <HackEgo> \ Looking up 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Making HTTP connection to 127.0.0.1:3128 \ Alert!: Unable to connect to remote host. \ \ lynx: Can't access startfile http://google.com/search?q=define:%2d%2d%68%65%6c%70
20:33:45 <alise> cheater99: You /like/ Fraktur?
20:34:01 <cheater99> i don't read german books in latin script
20:34:18 <alise> cheater99: Yes, I can quote too.
20:34:28 <alise> cheater99: More to the point: you /like/ German?
20:34:37 <pikhq> cheater99: Yes you do. Unless you write German in runes?
20:35:55 <alise> pikhq: Now now, we both know what that quote means.
20:36:18 <alise> (If you don't: Latin Antiqua script vs. German Fraktur script dispute.)
20:36:49 <alise> Fraktur, note, is ugly except in very specific circumstances.
20:37:00 <pikhq> Fraktur is such a pain to read.
20:37:12 <alise> Certainly I'd rather read a book in Antiqua than Fraktur no matter what the language; Fraktur basically embodies hostility to the reader -- "you cannot read this".
20:37:31 <alise> It is almost as if it is intentionally designed such that only the sufficiently patient and determined can make sense of its forms.
20:37:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: German: POWER.
20:38:05 <pikhq> alise: Grass script is worse. (note: only relevant for Chinese characters)
20:38:27 * alise looks that up. Ow.
20:38:36 <pikhq> Japanese uses Chinese characters as well.
20:38:52 <alise> Should be called "fuck you script".
20:39:32 <pikhq> Fortunately, it's only used for calligraphy, not for writing...
20:39:47 <pikhq> (because *nobody can freaking read it*)
20:40:19 <alise> Calligraphy irritates me some.
20:40:40 <pikhq> Chinese calligraphy is quite nice when it's not grass script.
20:41:01 <pikhq> (semicursive script and regular script are nice. Mmm.)
20:41:03 <cheater99> fraktur is so easy to learn and quite beautiful to behold
20:41:40 <cheater99> unless you expect to be able to read cyrillic off the bat without having actually been taught
20:42:18 <pikhq> But Fraktur is nominally *the same damned script*. It's just a very hard to read rendering thereof!
20:42:19 <alise> It's not beautiful. It's pretty much the opposite of beautiful: pointless flourish and agonising at times, painfully fractured (how appropriate) the rest.
20:42:39 <alise> It's not easy to read; no way can you read it as fluidly as Antiqua-descendants.
20:43:01 <alise> Anyway, I'm quite uninterested in the opinion of anyone who likes Fraktur; even if it's an opinion about Fraktur.
20:43:30 <cheater99> fraktur is as similar to antiqua as greek is similar to orthodox cyrillic
20:43:45 <pikhq> cheater99: Failure.
20:44:33 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, Fraktur is a style of Roman script. As is Antiqua.
20:45:03 <pikhq> cheater99: Linguistics failure.
20:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99: Yes they are. They both use Latin characters.
20:45:33 <pikhq> Anyone who uses a Roman script will be able to recognise Fraktus as a very ornate rendering of Roman script.
20:45:43 <pikhq> s/Fraktus/Fraktur/
20:46:16 <pikhq> Heck, it's closer to Antiqua than handwritten cursive is.
20:47:16 <pikhq> Now, you want an authentically German script? Learn runes.
20:49:23 <cheater99> Phantom_Hoover, they use roman characters... there's no such thing as latin characters.
20:50:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, according to WP "Latin" and "Roman" are interchangeable.
20:51:30 <pikhq> cheater99: "Not really" what?
20:51:51 <pikhq> Those are a script legitimately meant for Germanic languages.
20:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> So you're saying that the Roman characters were reinvented for Germanic languages?
20:59:29 <alise> Egyptienne is a nice slab serif.
21:00:33 <cheater99> and a Latin Script is a script used for that language
21:00:45 <pikhq> *Failure*, cheater99.
21:00:47 <cheater99> and Fraktur has never been used for Latin books
21:01:20 <cheater99> pikhq, that didn't have the effect you desired the first time around, and it won't even if you hammer it a thousand times
21:01:27 <cheater99> it might have a different effect though!
21:01:29 <pikhq> cheater99: It's still true!
21:02:09 <pikhq> Your statements are so bloody ignorant it makes my brain bleed!
21:02:40 <pikhq> The Latin script, more commonly called the Roman script, is the script originally developed for use in Latin, and later adapted to a *large* number of languages.
21:03:06 <pikhq> It has had many, many different stylistic variants, simply because it has been in use for a couple millenia now.
21:03:20 <cheater99> are you copypasting that from anyone-can-contribute-pedia?
21:03:51 <pikhq> I don't have HTTP access ATM.
21:04:30 <pikhq> You, sir, are an idiot, who needs to learn more about linguistics before talking about writing systems.
21:04:41 <pikhq> Pity our resident linguist isn't around ATM.
21:05:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cheater99: Actually refute what he's saying, rather than accusing him of getting it off WP.
21:05:37 <cheater99> i absolutely do not care enough for this to happen
21:05:52 <pikhq> So, what you're saying is... You're a troll?
21:06:31 <cheater99> no, what i'm saying is i had an interesting conversation with alise and you came in with your boring interjections and spoiled it
21:07:05 <alise> Can I hate both of you?
21:07:34 <pikhq> alise: Please, do. I have precious few enemies of late. It makes life more interesting to have good enemies.
21:07:53 <alise> pikhq: Though, note that you too have the obligation to provide references.
21:08:04 <pikhq> alise: I am incapable of doing so ATM.
21:08:12 <alise> Then chill a bit :)
21:08:23 <pikhq> So. ([Pikhq's Memory])
21:08:26 <pikhq> There's my citation.
21:08:31 <alise> Shit, my life ranks pretty damn high on the shitty scales and even I'm chilling right now.
21:08:44 <pikhq> alise: You think I'm worked up?
21:09:07 <alise> Well, perhaps not; but your text was.
21:09:20 <pikhq> I have a serious problem with that.
21:09:29 <alise> I noticed. I do too
21:09:30 <cheater99> want 2 talk about what's putting you down?
21:09:42 <pikhq> My discussions can get significantly more inflammatory than they are meant to be.
21:09:42 <alise> cheater99: If you're in here you should know :-)
21:09:55 <cheater99> alise: i am only here periodically
21:10:08 <cheater99> alise: but i care for this channel, fill me in
21:10:28 <alise> cheater99: Suffice to say that I'm falsely forced to be in a bureaucratic children's mental institution Monday to Friday that is basically a relic of the 60s; and to a large degree I'm treat like a 7-year-old there.
21:10:42 <pikhq> cheater99: HEY I NEVER APOLIGISED! (j/k)
21:10:49 <alise> When I have tried to protest by not attending they first threatened to invoke the Mental Health act on me; then, they threatened (to my mother) to put me into foster care.
21:10:59 <alise> My life is shitty; discuss.
21:11:32 <alise> Also I'm male; this name is a long story
21:11:41 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: They think I'm crazy
21:11:47 <alise> If you want something more specific ask more specifically :P
21:11:52 <cheater99> alise: every time i see your nickname i think of the gif of alisee waving her hips
21:11:59 <cheater99> but the version with a huge penis stuck on
21:12:21 <alise> cheater99: Good to know, good to know.
21:12:27 <cheater99> alise: if i were you i would be really nice to your mom and ask her to put you in a better place than tht
21:12:41 <alise> cheater99: My mother isn't the one doing it! She's sane enough to hate it too.
21:12:57 <alise> When she cooperated with my not attending, they told her that if she didn't force me to attend they'd put me in foster care.
21:13:14 <alise> cheater99: The Over-Arching Happy Fun State of Great Britain; specifically the "National 'Health' Service" division.
21:13:56 <alise> cheater99: they think I'm crazy
21:14:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: because they looked at me and decided in their expert opinion that i am crazy
21:14:08 <pikhq> cheater99: The Queen in Right of Britain seems to like enabling power trips.
21:14:14 <alise> It's as much a puzzle to me as it is to you.
21:14:23 <pikhq> (not: The Queen in Right of Britain is a quite distinct entity from Her Majesty)
21:14:42 <alise> cheater99: That's quite a long story & one I'd rather not go in to, least of all because it isn't entirely to do with me.
21:14:57 <alise> They had no prior reason to believe I was crazy, though.
21:15:06 <cheater99> alise: so can your mom put you in a different place?
21:15:28 <pikhq> cheater99: No, but they can expatriate.
21:15:46 <cheater99> expatriate meaning move out of britain?
21:16:23 <pikhq> Yes, that is what happens when one expatriates from a country in Great Britain.
21:16:48 <pikhq> Though typically someone who wishes to expatriate would like to leave the UK, not just one of England, Scotland, or Wales.
21:17:07 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Not really.
21:17:10 <alise> Not unless I've committed a crime.
21:17:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No; it's the NHS.
21:17:35 <alise> I am pretty sure I am not on any terrorist watch lists
21:17:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Workers of the NHS have often prevented me from leaving the country.
21:17:51 <alise> & I am also pretty sure that they would not have the foresight to preemptively block a completely unexpected flight.
21:17:53 <pikhq> They have the power to declare someone in their care in need of hospitalisation.
21:17:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh?
21:18:19 <pikhq> They do not have the power to declare someone in another nation in need of hospitalisation.
21:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, my parents have never let me leave the country without me, so...
21:18:48 <Sgeo> I'd have trouble leaving without me too
21:18:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Cheesy.
21:18:53 <Sgeo> ALso, curse your s//
21:19:24 <alise> Anyway what they say I have is OCD & some high-functioning autism spectrum disorder.
21:19:31 <Phantom_Hoover> (They don't work for the psychiatric bits, so I'm not fraternising with the enemy)
21:19:39 <alise> I will accept that I have aspects of both but together they are two labels too strong.
21:19:47 <Sgeo> alise, that's a reason to effectively lock you up WHY?
21:19:54 <alise> I also definitely reject that I need to be sleeping in an institution all week.
21:19:59 <pikhq> The irony being that all their treatments are likely to make either one *worse*.
21:19:59 <alise> That's the most crazy thing.
21:20:11 <alise> The only sane response even if I /did/ have those disorders would be to treat me at home!
21:20:19 <alise> Putting me in an institution is an unacceptable response.
21:20:33 <alise> Oh, did I mention I'm not allowed any internet connection?
21:20:40 <Sgeo> alise, I think socializing might be an important part, though
21:20:43 <Sgeo> So maybe that's the goal?
21:20:45 <alise> The only time you're allowed to use the internet is on the well-monitored, filtered-to-shit school computers.
21:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise: Ah, but you might arrange things and not talk to people *online*
21:20:55 <alise> Sgeo: Socialising? You can't even go out without a trip of some sort being planned.
21:21:02 <alise> And I have no access to the internet...
21:21:08 <alise> So I could only socialise with the very few people at the unit.
21:21:15 <alise> Whoop de doo, I am newly integrated into society
21:21:21 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Autism != not talking to people.
21:21:45 * pikhq , being autistic, would know
21:21:54 <alise> Anyway if they knew anything about Asperger's-ish syndromes they'd know that taking one away from their "obsession" (which any right-thinking person working under the assumption that I had Asperger's would definitely deduce to be computers) is psychologically traumatic.
21:22:01 <alise> So they're fucking retards any way you cut it.
21:22:03 <Sgeo> Not all autistic people understand autism *looks selfwards*
21:22:08 <pikhq> alise: No fucking shit.
21:22:13 <alise> Not to mention that even if all this was the "right" thing to do... it violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
21:22:17 <alise> Sgeo: I don't believe you have autism.
21:22:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, almost everyone.
21:22:30 <alise> Asperger's, well, no.
21:22:35 <Sgeo> alise, well, Asperger's, according to a doctor a while ago, according to my dad
21:22:44 <alise> Asperger's syndrome is SO BROADLY DEFINED that /anyone/ of a nerdy disposition has it.
21:22:52 <alise> And even a lot of people /without/ such a disposition.
21:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC Aspergers and autism don't have well-defined boundaries
21:23:04 <alise> It's a useless label -- it refers to /nothing/.
21:23:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Autism is very well-defined, and very noticeable.
21:23:19 <pikhq> Asperger's is soon to cease being a diagnosis.
21:23:22 <alise> Asperger's nowadays means nothing.
21:23:28 <alise> pikhq: Yes; they're removing it from the DSM, aren't they?
21:23:31 <alise> Of course, the DSM is a pile of shit.
21:23:44 <Sgeo> So soon I will be just "autistic"?
21:23:51 <alise> Sgeo: Soon you will just be nothing.
21:23:55 <alise> Your diagnosis was almost certainly wrong.
21:24:07 <Sgeo> alise, you've only ever known me online
21:24:07 <pikhq> But when even the DSM thinks some diagnosis is a stupid piece of shit, you can be pretty sure it's a stupid piece of shit. :P
21:24:10 <alise> You're an antisocial nerd; nothing wrong with that.
21:24:16 <alise> Sgeo: If you were autistic... We'd know.
21:24:47 <pikhq> (zzo38 is fucking obvious, though. I mean damn.)
21:24:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: What are you trying to say?
21:24:52 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: ...
21:25:00 <alise> pikhq: I'd say you have pretty mild autism, based solely on your IRC persona.
21:25:09 <Sgeo> My dad kept emphasizing "mild"
21:25:12 <alise> Also, zzo38 is a most wonderfulest person.
21:25:18 <pikhq> alise: Mild, but noticable, yes.
21:25:27 <alise> Sgeo: Mild Asperger's? Asperger's is already so mild as to be more a block of nothing than cheese!
21:25:38 <pikhq> My IRC persona is pretty much the same as my IRL persona.
21:25:50 <pikhq> Yes, even including pedantic usage of language.
21:25:55 <alise> pikhq: In which case, meeting you would be awesome.
21:26:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:27:01 <alise> he suffered from extreme self-awareness
21:27:05 <alise> He, himself, was a neural net.
21:27:59 <Sgeo> alise, remember how you said I shouldn't work on this project unless I'm getting paid, or think it's incredibly incredibly important, or (forgot what the third condition was)?
21:28:25 <alise> You're hypothetically getting paid, I assume?
21:28:29 <Sgeo> I figure that I will get paid in attention
21:28:48 <alise> Then you'd be the profit's kind suffixed by "whore".
21:29:05 <Sgeo> Is there anyone who isn't?
21:29:22 <AnMaster> hm what is normal harddrive temperatures?
21:29:26 <Sgeo> My introductory speech for my speech class was how attention-seeking isn't inherently a bad thing
21:30:51 <oklopol> "except it still looks typographically good" <<< you mean typographically non-monospacedly crappy?
21:30:52 <alise> Sgeo: I'm not an attention whore, I don't think. Just an attention slut.
21:31:01 <alise> I knew oklopol would come in <3
21:31:15 <alise> oklopol: you'd like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_Roman it's like it's monospaced
21:31:20 <alise> but it also appeases typonerds like myself.
21:31:26 <Sgeo> Hm, what's the difference, exactly?
21:31:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Look up the specs for your model. Typically up to around 50 is fine, I think.
21:31:47 <AnMaster> oklopol, well that is a given if it was alise that said it
21:32:30 <alise> AnMaster: Firstly, shut up.
21:32:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ah good idea. And yeah 31 C should be fine considering the indoor temp. It went to 39 C the day it was 27 C inside. And today it is about 18 C.
21:32:46 <alise> Secondly, it was a product of Knuth; conflicting raging-AnMaster-opinions alert.
21:32:58 <alise> Sgeo: slut is slightly less severe :-)
21:33:09 <oklopol> alise: of course N->Z and Z->Q are the same thing, you're adding inverses to an operation lacking them (it's possible i haven't explicitly realized this tho)
21:33:10 <pikhq> alise: My God, I want Concrete Roman as a terminal font.
21:33:22 <AnMaster> alise, it was something you could have said though
21:33:34 <alise> oklopol: yeah but the point is that you can do it "automagically"
21:33:48 <alise> and it always comes out as tuples (a,b) representing op_inv(a,b)
21:34:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:34:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm... Non-monospace would be a pain in a terminal
21:35:26 <alise> Only in a shitty Unix terminal.
21:35:33 <alise> Also, I use a serifed font for IRC.
21:36:10 <AnMaster> alise, how does the listing in "/msg nickserv help" (without quotes, duh) look to you?
21:36:32 <AnMaster> presumably the second column is not very well aligned though?
21:36:36 <alise> It doesn't have to be aligned to see what the commands do; and how often do you look at nickserv help?
21:36:39 <alise> Far more often I talk.
21:36:46 <alise> mycroftiv: No, it's great because it looks ridiculous
21:37:01 <alise> I am not authorized to use OperServ. :P
21:37:14 <AnMaster> alise, well duh not on here. But aren't you an oper anywhere?
21:37:18 <alise> "Everything you've learned in life. In five words. GO." ;; if you can answer this, you haven't learned much.
21:37:25 <alise> And I don't want to be.
21:37:27 <AnMaster> alise, I'm kind of surprised in fact.
21:37:48 <alise> Why? You know that #esoteric is about 90% of my IRC usage.
21:38:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:38:28 <Sgeo_> Must... stop... trying.. to.. be.. verbose.. on.. Twitter
21:38:30 <AnMaster> alise, I thought you were in #haskell and various other channels too?
21:38:31 <alise> I'm not sure whether to be flattered or not, then. :P
21:38:37 <alise> Sure, #haskell sometimes.
21:38:39 <alise> Still all Freenode, though.
21:38:48 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> alise: You hate like everyone." <<< she doesn't hate me
21:39:02 <AnMaster> alise, freenode is a large part of my channel list too
21:39:04 <alise> Actually, here's my obligatory five-word summary: "Keep calm and carry on."
21:39:51 <AnMaster> alise, 50% or so from a quick guesstimate based on ocular inspection of the channel list.
21:40:15 <alise> Ocular. Really now.
21:40:43 <alise> I don't even like being an op :-)
21:40:52 <Sgeo_> Grah, removing spaces and punctuation just to fit 140chars hurt my soul
21:40:57 <alise> Usually I'm only an op so that crappy people don't become ops :p
21:41:07 <alise> Sgeo_: So don't use Twitter.
21:41:17 <AnMaster> alise, ocular: [...] 3. Seen by the eye; visual
21:41:18 <Sgeo_> alise, I mostly follow people and bots
21:41:24 <AnMaster> from http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ocular
21:41:30 <alise> AnMaster: But come on.
21:41:36 <Sgeo_> alise, a surprisingly large number
21:41:45 <AnMaster> alise, I rather liked the phrase "quick guesstimate based on ocular inspection"
21:41:52 <alise> <oklopol> you're more noise sensitive than the average human?
21:41:56 <Sgeo_> Of course, my secondary account has 104 followers
21:42:07 <alise> I know I am; all my senses are quite a bit sharper than ordinary.
21:42:16 <alise> Which makes me wonder: what is everyone else missing?
21:42:25 <alise> Sgeo_: Why "of course"?
21:42:29 <AnMaster> alise, it sounds so.... hm.... hard to describe it. Not scientific. Not bureaucratic. But something along those directions.
21:42:41 <alise> AnMaster: Verbose?
21:42:42 <Sgeo_> alise, it's a bot, just tweets when a new OOTS is up
21:42:46 <Sgeo_> Far more interesting than I am
21:43:38 <alise> AnMaster: It occurs to me upon this present time that, as I sit at my computer typing on IRC, I should consider a fact; that fact would enlighten the populace of the #esoteric channel, or at least one member of it; and it would be a very good thing to say now; and I must also consider that the identity of that fact should be known as the fact that AnMaster could be the next Dickens.
21:43:41 <AnMaster> alise, plus I seen "ocular inspection" used in a protocol to describe the process of checking a house for water damage.
21:43:58 <oklopol> "<Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is anyone here *not* autistic?" <<< i'm a normal brained healthy boy
21:44:11 <AnMaster> it seemed rather silly. It sounds even sillier in Swedish (which was the language of the protocol): "okulär inspektion"
21:44:25 <alise> Okulr Inspektion would be a kick-ass band/album name
21:44:36 <AnMaster> alise, wonderful statement above
21:44:43 <alise> AnMaster: You'd like Dickens.
21:44:53 <alise> Which also indicates that you have terrible taste.
21:44:55 <AnMaster> alise, hm I read David Copperfield
21:45:03 <alise> I have a feeling I can now ping pikhq to invoke horrible rage upon the name Dickens.
21:45:17 <alise> My sentence there was modelled upon the opening of Great Expectations.
21:45:40 * Sgeo_ has been out of touch with non-Pratchett literature for years
21:45:51 <alise> Dickens is a bit... older than that.
21:45:57 <AnMaster> alise, don't you find writing in various verbose and bureaucratic stylistic styles fun?
21:46:00 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/JapaneseTtypewriter.jpg I cannot even begin to fathom how glad Japanese people must have been to have computers do typesetting.
21:46:19 <pikhq> alise: Dickens' style was hurt quite greatly by being paid by the word.
21:46:23 <Sgeo_> Well, I don't think I've read much fiction outside of Pratchett
21:46:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes but where are the keys
21:46:43 <alise> pikhq: I have an innate dislike of the man himself; he was quite overly sentimental.
21:46:46 <oklopol> alise: it's not monospaced, impossible to read
21:46:53 <ais523> hmm, sorry for not saying anything all day
21:46:56 <ais523> but it's time for me to go home
21:47:04 <Sgeo_> Hm, does Calculus the Easy Way count as fiction
21:47:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:47:14 <alise> His novels seem shallow to me: they're fancies in the land of irrelevancy; disconnected to any experience that we know because they take place in a hackneyed, fake universe.
21:47:19 <Sgeo_> I mean, it's a fictional sto.. the answer's obviously yes, isn't it
21:47:24 <alise> Sgeo_: YES BCUZ LOL CALCULUS IS HARD LOL
21:47:40 <alise> <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes but where are the keys
21:47:44 <alise> Sgeo_: I was imitating an idiot.
21:47:50 <AnMaster> alise, yes that is what I asked about
21:48:13 <AnMaster> alise, I'm unable to spot anything remotely like keys in http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/JapaneseTtypewriter.jpg
21:48:36 <Sgeo_> I feel like I haven't learned any math since 7th grade or so
21:48:52 <oklopol> based on oculating my chanlist freenode is 40% of my channelity
21:49:41 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:50:04 <oklopol> sensitivity to senses is one of those things self-described aspies love
21:50:09 <pikhq_> Anyways. What'd I miss?
21:50:09 <AnMaster> btw, best bureaucratic phrase of all time, which I seem unable to translate to English: "grönfoderomvandlande mjölkproduktionsenhet"
21:50:16 <AnMaster> for those who know Swedish however...
21:50:19 <pikhq_> You move the handle around to select the type slug, and then the machine strikes the slug against the page.
21:50:25 <AnMaster> (btw it means "cow", which is usually "ko" in Swedish)
21:51:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:51:11 <pikhq_> Translate each individual component?
21:51:21 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
21:51:32 <pikhq> Calques are absurdly common in English.
21:51:55 <oklopol> "<alise> who eats dog food" <<< it all tastes almost the same, i've found
21:52:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, something like: "green fodder converting" "milk production unit"
21:52:23 <AnMaster> I'm not sure of "fodder", got it from google translate"
21:52:54 <pikhq> "Fodder" is the *cognate* word.
21:53:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, what the heck does cognate mean?
21:53:25 <pikhq> Same etymological origin.
21:53:43 <oklopol> "<alise> His novels seem shallow to me: they're fancies in the land of irrelevancy; disconnected to any experience that we know because they take place in a hackneyed, fake universe." <<< the less a story has to do with life as we know it, the better it is
21:54:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, this was from a report from some municipality. A journalist I know told me about this. She had to read the report.
21:54:39 <Sgeo_> Ok, why does the Sirius XM app want to directly call phone numbers?
21:54:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, Told me she called the person who wrote it and asked how on earth he thought when he wrote it. He seemed unable to understand why it was an issue.
21:56:01 <Sgeo_> What report is this?
21:56:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined.
21:56:28 <oklopol> hi pikhq_ long time no see
21:56:39 <pikhq_> Same etymological origin.
21:56:44 <pikhq_> Examples of cognates are English "gift" and German "gift".
21:56:47 <pikhq_> (the English means "gift". The German means "poison". It apparently developed into "poison" out of a euphemism.)
21:56:53 <pikhq_> Or "royal", "real", "regal", "raj", and a few other words. (we've got cognates for that from every single branch of Indoeuropean in the same language!)
21:57:00 <AnMaster> Sgeo_, and the journalist in question died a few years ago. So no chance of asking her.
21:57:37 <oklopol> do you have cognates from the finnish "kuninkaallinen"
21:57:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:58:18 <oklopol> except i guess cognate isn't about that
21:58:24 <pikhq_> oklopol: "Close" doesn't necessarily mean "not cognate".
21:58:31 <pikhq_> "Cow" and "bovine" are cognate.
21:58:36 <oklopol> yes this i realized before i even said what i said
21:58:56 <pikhq_> They were the same word in Proto-indoeuropean.
21:59:02 <AnMaster> pikhq_, and what was that word
21:59:10 <AnMaster> it seems kind of hard to see a common part
21:59:22 <pikhq_> AnMaster: Lemme check.
21:59:41 <oklopol> the finnish "lehm" is a pretty good gcd
22:01:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, gcd? as in greatest common divisor?
22:02:32 <pikhq_> Still, there was just a few simple phoneme shifts into "cow" and "bov", and a bunch of odder shifts from there in English...
22:03:26 <pikhq_> There's a very, very large number of cognates in English with a different English word, simply because we've got a lot of vocab from two major branches of Indoeuropean.
22:04:02 <alise> <oklopol> "<alise> His novels seem shallow to me: they're fancies in the land of irrelevancy; disconnected to any experience that we know because they take place in a hackneyed, fake universe." <<< the less a story has to do with life as we know it, the better it is
22:04:02 <oklopol> we imagine a tree with words as vertices and children being new cognates of their father, and take the natural meets in this tree
22:04:08 <pikhq_> Oh, and the full list of cognates: "right, rich, raj, regalia, reign, royal, real". All cognate.
22:04:09 <alise> Dickens' stories do not happen in any even imaginable universe.
22:04:55 <alise> <Sgeo_> I feel like I haven't learned any math since 7th grade or so
22:04:57 <oklopol> maybe we should call them royal numbers
22:04:58 <alise> do you really not understand calculus?
22:05:20 <alise> even I understand calculus
22:05:24 <oklopol> you can't "understand" calculus
22:05:33 <Sgeo_> alise, I learned simple calculus concepts in 6th grade, started to gain some actual understanding in 7th
22:05:36 <alise> you have to "see" it for yourself
22:05:37 <Sgeo_> And then I stagnated
22:06:02 <oklopol> that's like saying you "understand" addition; which i guess is perfectly sensible.
22:06:05 <alise> Sgeo_: f'(x) = lim h->0 (f(x+h) - f(x))/h
22:06:08 <alise> Presumably you understand that.
22:06:17 <alise> Calculus is a very simple concept, of course.
22:06:31 <pikhq_> Oh, gah, we've also got cognates from Latin and French and from French and French.
22:06:42 <alise> pikhq_: What about cognates from ENGLISH
22:06:52 <alise> 05:48:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Can someone opinionated on this tell me what the difference between software and normal patents is?
22:06:56 <Sgeo_> I learned everything I know from Calculus the Easy Way. Things like the quotient rule were not covered
22:06:57 <alise> normal patents are on mechanism
22:07:03 <alise> software patents are usually on abstract algorithms etc
22:07:06 <Sgeo_> We went over it in class once, I completely forgot it by now
22:07:08 <oklopol> what's the quotient rule again
22:07:08 <alise> which are expressly forbidden in normal patents
22:07:11 <Sgeo_> Although I could easily redetermine it
22:07:12 <pikhq_> alise: Define "from English".
22:07:21 <pikhq_> There's not many words native to the language. :D
22:08:03 <pikhq_> alise: Oooh, here's one.
22:08:04 <Sgeo_> Ultimately, it's just chain + multiplication + exponents(which is trivial)
22:08:24 <pikhq_> "Shadow, shade, and shede" are all from Old English sceadu.
22:08:27 <oklopol> the quotient rule is useless to memorize, you can just wp it, and once you learn differentials for functions : R^n -> R^m, you can just always deduce it in your head
22:08:31 <alise> i don't care much about the actual menial-labour side of finding derivatives.
22:08:58 <alise> pikhq_: A shed is a shadowy shade.
22:09:06 <pikhq_> Deewiant: What's knight cognate with?
22:09:35 <Sgeo_> In 6th grade however, I didn't quite understand that 1/x = x^-1
22:09:39 <alise> 06:36:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: software patents have a much longer timespan relative to the length of time the thing they implement remains useful for, than hardware patents
22:09:40 <alise> 06:37:04 <ais523> a 50-year-old internal combustion engine might be outmoded nowadays, but it's still potentially useful
22:09:40 <alise> 06:37:11 <ais523> 50-year-old software is basically useless
22:09:40 <alise> 06:37:27 <ais523> so the idea of patents - to give people a limited monopoly in return for disclosing how the thing works - is subverted
22:09:41 <alise> 06:37:42 <ais523> especially as software patents tend not even to disclose how the things works nowadays
22:09:43 <alise> 06:37:50 <ais523> old inventions, the idea was you could reproduce the whole thing from the patent
22:09:43 <cheater99> tldr: alise is assburgers and gets canned in for being an evil person who plots how to explode people's hearts by dividing big numbers in his head
22:09:45 <alise> 06:38:15 <ais523> many modern hardware patents have the same problem, tbh
22:09:50 <oklopol> Sgeo_: presumably because they didn't explain that's just a definition
22:09:58 <Sgeo_> This hindered my efforts to find an ideal solution to my class's "Star Lottery"
22:10:08 <alise> cheater99: yes... except i'm not assburgers any more than anyone else in here is, and I'm useless at mental arithmetic
22:10:21 <Sgeo_> I tried working it out in 7th grade, but when I tried to determine the equation that I needed to differentiate... it was 0
22:10:30 <alise> i think it's mainly their ocd diagnosis they care about, neither ocd nor aspergers warrant being an inpatient though
22:10:38 <oklopol> Sgeo_: tried working what out?
22:10:47 <Sgeo_> There was a "star lottery"
22:10:51 <cheater99> alise: that's what you think. in fact you are only a fractional-consciousness of a bigger, more evil mind
22:10:52 <Sgeo_> The class's currency was stars
22:11:18 <Sgeo_> Every day or week, I forgot which, the students would put in a number of stars, to get a chance of winning all the stars put in
22:11:24 <cheater99> alise: the one way out for you that i see is to become a t-girl, get a hormone therapy and implants, and sue anyone who treats you how you don't want 'em to
22:11:46 <alise> cheater99: That's a brilliant solution! Or, maybe I will just move country.
22:11:52 <alise> Instead of moving towards cuntry.
22:11:59 <pikhq_> alise: Being OCD warrants being a not-inpateint, in fact. :)
22:12:06 <cheater99> alise, i moved out of the uk for good reason
22:12:13 <alise> cheater99: Where do you live now?
22:12:21 <alise> oklopol: why thank you. Somehow I think you're being sarcastic :p
22:12:25 <cheater99> there's a fucking depression there and there is absolutely no outlook for people who want to succeed
22:12:34 <oklopol> alise: i don't know whether i am
22:12:47 <alise> cheater99: Oh, not China.
22:12:52 <pikhq_> China's probably a bad idea.
22:12:52 <alise> Have /some/ principles!
22:12:58 <cheater99> my biggest hang-up is that i'm not that into asian women
22:13:10 <alise> I'm probably destined for the EU.
22:13:15 <oklopol> asian women are small and make squeaky noises when you fuck them
22:13:20 <alise> Easy to migrate to, and, well, most of the nice countries are there.
22:13:24 <alise> Considering some Nordic country.
22:13:25 <oklopol> the only problem with them is you can't see their genitals
22:13:25 <pikhq_> Except for Hong Kong; I could probably *manage* to live there.
22:13:27 <cheater99> alise: yes, you should come to germany with me
22:13:32 <oklopol> but usually you wouldn't anyway during sex
22:13:37 <alise> oklopol: hahaha i love you
22:13:51 <alise> cheater99: no, you guys like fraktur
22:14:04 <alise> oklopol: you know, mice are also small and make squeaky noises when you fuck them
22:14:07 <alise> you can't see their genitals, either
22:14:11 <alise> are you sure you're not confusing the two?
22:14:30 <cheater99> alise: germany is one of the few places in europe without a fucked up economy OR fucked up government
22:14:33 <pikhq_> alise: Mice don't have pixelation bars over the genitals.
22:14:37 <alise> cheater99: But me likey Nordic countries.
22:14:44 <alise> pikhq_: They do on my hard drive 8)
22:14:51 <oklopol> alise: yeah but they aren't humans, humans make the best sex targets
22:14:58 <cheater99> alise: germany has a lot of nordic appeal to it
22:15:10 <alise> cheater99: Besides, you're all Nazis.
22:15:20 <alise> True, Nordic countries are... on the pricey side.
22:15:23 <alise> cheater99: Shut up.
22:15:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:15:34 <alise> Also, oblig.: You left the UK? GOOD RIDDANCE
22:15:51 <alise> cheater99: does germany have 100mbit interwebs
22:16:10 <pikhq_> alise: If you want 100mbit interwebs, avoid the hell out of the US. :)
22:16:20 <alise> pikhq_: I would do that anyway, sir.
22:16:26 <oklopol> cheater99: no alise said no u
22:16:35 <alise> South Korea is nice.
22:16:47 <alise> If you mean cheater99, never mind; if you mean me: I can't move out of the EU.
22:16:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it has the problem of being next to North Korea.
22:16:53 <alise> Or rather, I'm not going to.
22:16:55 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: So does Japan.
22:16:57 <alise> Immigration is Hard.
22:17:03 <oklopol> i also heard us people think the sun revolves around the earth and that god exists
22:17:06 <pikhq_> Though that has the problem of having lingering racism.
22:17:12 <cheater99> south korea... umm... hello south korea is in a war with north korea?
22:17:22 <pikhq_> cheater99: As is the US.
22:17:35 <pikhq_> Have been for all of my grandmother's life.
22:17:59 <alise> cheater99: they're not de facto in a war
22:18:12 <alise> South Korea is at about as much risk as China.
22:18:15 <pikhq_> Seoul would get hammered with artillery for a weak.
22:18:25 <alise> North Korea fires at South: Seoul suffers... then North Korea disappears overnight.
22:18:31 <pikhq_> North Korea would cease to support life.
22:18:42 <cheater99> i like spicy food but radioactive isotopes punching through a concrete wall, then my face and finally landing on my tongue is a bit too extreme
22:19:02 <alise> cheater99: North Korea will not fire at South.
22:19:04 <pikhq_> cheater99: North Korea couldn't even get a nuke *beyond Pyongyang* if they tried, y'know.
22:19:21 <pikhq_> (Pyongyang being the capital of North Korea)
22:19:37 <pikhq_> And they've got, what, 0 nukes ATM?
22:19:44 <cheater99> y'all are underestimating human stupidity
22:19:54 <oklopol> can we talk more about derivatives or oriental vaginas?
22:19:58 <pikhq_> Y'all are overestimating North Korea's firepower.
22:20:03 <oklopol> all this politics is going over my head
22:20:16 <alise> fun fact: kim jong-il is not a total idiot
22:20:19 <pikhq_> They've got about a week's worth of artillery.
22:20:22 <cheater99> oklopol, prevent every 2nd word is 'vagina' or 'asian' randomly
22:20:23 <alise> He's evil, yes; evil but smart.
22:20:33 <alise> He would not obliterate his plaything by firing weaponry at Seoul.
22:20:37 <alise> cheater99: Prevent it!
22:20:51 <pikhq_> The only reason we don't just give them the finger is that they *could* make life suck for Seoul.
22:21:45 <alise> cheater99: Anyway, just go to Japan then :P
22:21:57 <pikhq_> It's kinda like MAD, except that one side will lose a city and the other side will lose the ability to live.
22:22:35 <cheater99> i know most hiragana and katakana and know the 'desu' form
22:22:52 <oklopol> cheater99: do you mean i should not use those words as often as i do?
22:22:56 <pikhq_> I highly doubt that your accent is perfect.
22:23:12 <pikhq_> Given that what you know is at most a few day's worth of learning.
22:23:22 <cheater99> oklopol, no, i mean you should replace every second word in our polotics conversation with those words
22:23:27 <pikhq_> How's your pitch stress?
22:23:35 <cheater99> because you want vaginas instead of polotics
22:24:04 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: because you talked about polish people
22:24:14 <alise> Is biopic pronounced "by opick"? If not, it should be,
22:24:36 <pikhq_> cheater99: Seriously, I *highly* doubt your accent is "perfect". :)
22:24:48 <alise> Good, so it's not "byoh pick".
22:24:53 <cheater99> pikhq_, it's as perfect as it can be
22:24:54 <alise> cheater99: Well, it's bio-graphical pic-ture.
22:25:10 <alise> "By oppik" is nice; the how-you'd-think "Bio pick" is not.
22:25:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: See, I don't like that.
22:25:30 <alise> I didn't realise biopic was an abbreviation for "bio pic" at first, so I came to pronounce it as "by oppik".
22:25:40 <pikhq_> Probably don't even get "r" right.
22:25:41 <cheater99> pikhq_, you're comin through as a bad person again
22:26:15 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: A "Japanese accent". He claims to have a perfect accent in Japanese.
22:26:29 <pikhq_> I, having spent several years learning Japanese, doubt this.
22:26:45 <cheater99> the polish accent is very similar to japanese
22:26:54 <pikhq_> cheater99: Hahahahah... No.
22:27:11 <alise> pikhq_: I note that the main part of your seemingly-angry-speak is apparent egotism.
22:27:23 <alise> (Note: I am making this comment as an entirely-detached observer, not an antagonist.)
22:27:47 <pikhq_> alise: I tend to be egotistical about subjects I know a lot about.
22:28:14 <cheater99> alise, i think it's a projection-expectation motivated by low self-esteem which produces expectation of low value in other people
22:28:22 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: is it pikhq_?
22:28:32 <alise> cheater99: Or, he could just be autistic.
22:28:54 <alise> As autistic communication tends to have vastly less emotional content than is usual.
22:29:08 <cheater99> either way, i was told i have a good accent by two different japanese teachers, one who was japanese, the other lived in japan for a couple decades or something like that
22:29:12 <oklopol> what's projection-expectation
22:29:29 <oklopol> i was asked the other day if i used to live in america
22:29:31 <pikhq_> cheater99: Care to record yourself speaking in Japanese for a bit?
22:29:31 <cheater99> oklopol, i explained further in the same line
22:29:54 <oklopol> but the guy who asked was a french guy so i guess that's doesn't say much :D
22:29:57 <pikhq_> Also, I've noticed that Japanese teachers seem to set the bar absurdly low for foreign learners.
22:29:58 <cheater99> *and*, more importantly, i don't care to continue a pointless argument with you
22:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol: Fancy form of "I know you are, but what am I?"
22:30:17 <oklopol> oh and i was asked that because of my accent, i guess that's sort of important
22:30:17 <alise> cheater99: I don't think pikhq_ is actually arguing...
22:30:18 <pikhq_> Stuff like "Oh, you'll only ever learn a few hundred kanji, give up trying to do more".
22:30:43 <alise> cheater99: Strongly disagreeing.
22:31:18 <oklopol> so did you mean "projection -- expectation ..."
22:31:32 <oklopol> or did you mean projection-expectation, and i'm still misunderstanding
22:31:40 <cheater99> no, i meant 'projection-expectation'.
22:32:09 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
22:32:24 <pikhq_> (seriously, though, "know the desu form"? Congrats, you've spent a couple minutes learning the language! YOU ARE WINNER)
22:32:50 <SgeoN1> I am showing irc to my grandmother
22:33:00 <oklopol> i've learned about a hundred chinese kanji whatever they're called from just watching tv series with subtitles
22:33:43 <pikhq_> (desu is the copula. Japanese has a SOV sentence order. Subjects are followed by "wa" or "ga". CONGRATS, YOU, THE READER, KNOW THE DESU FORM!)
22:34:22 <pikhq_> oklopol: Kanji, hanxi, hanja, chu nom, depending on the language.
22:34:33 <alise> Desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu desu
22:34:34 <oklopol> pikhq_: actually i'm not even 100% it's chinese
22:34:51 <pikhq_> Phantom_Hoover: Copulas in other languages are "is", "estas", "est"...
22:34:57 <oklopol> i call it the language i decided to start learning from subtitles
22:35:00 <pikhq_> oklopol: What language?
22:35:13 <oklopol> there's this streaming place called tudou
22:35:16 <alise> <ais523> and the longer you expose the ASIC wafer to the doping agent, the deeper the p-type or n-type region goes
22:35:21 <alise> "Doping agent" is officially the best name for weed ever.
22:35:34 <alise> "I'm exposing my thinking wafer to the doping agent... maaaan"
22:35:55 <oklopol> "i" is this weird x thing, plural is one of the few characters where density is distributed as |^|
22:35:57 <pikhq_> (note: hanja and chu nom no longer in use as normal orthographies.)
22:36:00 <alise> 12:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, god, the Koreas are at it again.
22:36:02 <alise> Wait, it started again?
22:36:06 <oklopol> i'm sure you can deduce it from that
22:36:38 <pikhq_> alise: South Korea has accused Chosen of an act of war.
22:36:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No. I could watch the news, I guess, if I went to my room and fought with the tiny television.
22:36:46 <alise> I don't much see the point, though.
22:36:53 <pikhq_> Chosen is responding by preparing for war.
22:37:05 <oklopol> newspapers can be dangerous for your weak mind
22:37:07 <pikhq_> Chosen torpedoed a South Korean vessel.
22:37:53 <alise> pikhq_: So, you made me google Chosen.
22:37:58 <alise> Howsabout we call it North Korea?
22:38:07 <alise> I'll settle for Corea if you're gonna be That Guy :P
22:38:18 <oklopol> "but weekday mom, what is all this violence doing in the world :("
22:38:45 <alise> the interchangability of staff as the shifts wade in and out is actually quite unnerving
22:38:49 <alise> people just disappear and appear.
22:39:05 <cheater99> there's something i never understood in britain
22:39:19 <alise> I see teenagers an awful lot.
22:39:29 <alise> ...But... children... huh, you are right.
22:39:37 <oklopol> cheater99: you have to look down, they're small hahaha
22:39:37 <alise> It's our overprotective culture.
22:39:42 <alise> cheater99: I know that much.
22:39:53 <alise> I'm small and light!
22:39:55 <cheater99> alise: ok, so let's say a 12 year old
22:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, they're never allowed out in case of paedophiles.
22:39:57 <alise> 39 kilos or thereabouts
22:39:57 <pikhq_> alise: Sorry, that's the Japanese coming through.
22:40:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: this
22:40:08 <cheater99> they get woken up and stay at home until 8 then go to school yes?
22:40:10 <oklopol> i've never seen alise q.e.d.
22:40:16 <cheater99> then they're at school until say 4 pm
22:40:25 <alise> cheater99: PRAYSTATION TREE
22:40:50 <pikhq_> alise: It's normally shortened as 韓国 for South Korea and 朝鮮 for North Korea.
22:40:57 <pikhq_> ("Korea" and "Chosen", translated)
22:41:12 <alise> In the North, Kijong-dong features a number of brightly painted, poured-concrete multi-story buildings and apartments with electric lighting. These features represented an unheard of level of luxury for rural Koreans, north or south, in the 1950s. The town was oriented so that the bright blue roofs and white sides of the buildings would be the most distinguishing features when viewed from the border. However scrutiny with modern telescopic lenses reveals tha
22:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> But there unfortunately tend to be other youths outside whenever I doo.
22:41:13 <alise> t the buildings are mere concrete shells lacking window glass or even interior rooms[17][18], with the building lights turned on and off at set times and the empty sidewalks swept by a skeleton crew of caretakers in an effort to preserve the illusion of activity.[19]
22:42:14 <alise> cheater99: it's in the demilitarised zone
22:42:16 <cheater99> it's like that movie with jim carrey
22:42:29 <alise> south korea has one too although people are actually there
22:42:32 <alise> cheater99: truman show
22:42:39 <alise> it's like they're trying to convince each other
22:42:47 <SgeoN1> That was my grandmother typing
22:42:49 <alise> "I know we've agreed not to kill each other here... but my dick is way bigger than yours."
22:42:56 <alise> SgeoN1: I hope your grandmother doesn't see that.
22:43:20 <oklopol> i was wondering why that didn't happen the first time Sgeo_ mentioned what was happening
22:43:28 <oklopol> SgeoN1: have you never been to irc?
22:43:54 <alise> The official position of the North Korean government is that the village contains a 200-family collective farm, serviced by a childcare center, kindergarten, primary and secondary schools, and a hospital.[10] However, observation from the south suggests that the town is actually an uninhabited Potemkin village built at great expense in the 1950s in a propaganda effort to encourage South Korean defection and to house the PRK soldiers manning the extensive net
22:43:54 <alise> work of artillery positions, fortifications and underground marshalling bunkers that abut the border zone.[3][4][11][12] Though no visitors are allowed, it is the only settlement in North Korea within direct eye- and earshot of the Korean DMZ, and by extension, the West.
22:43:56 <SgeoN1> Are you asking me or her?
22:44:17 <cheater99> the german eurovision contestant actually sings well
22:44:36 <alise> german women aren't hot, they're engineered superhumans.
22:44:46 <oklopol> SgeoN1: well i guess i was assuming you didn't want your grandma to see anything dirty, i'm not sure why.
22:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1: Your grandmother is presumably having an apoplectic fit by now.
22:45:00 <cheater99> alise: are you british english, or are you from an immigrant family?
22:45:10 <SgeoN1> Oklopol, she can barely see the screen
22:45:47 <SgeoN1> She's not reading any of this, I'm reading for her
22:45:49 <alise> I'm about as native as they come.
22:46:31 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Meyer-Landrut
22:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> If Sgeo's grandmother knows what loli is I'm more than a little disturbed.
22:46:42 <cheater99> alise: are you like, the kind of british person who wouldn't look out of place spectating polo or tennis or in a gentlemen's club?
22:46:47 <SgeoN1> Well, she want to eat now. I'm saying bye on her behalf
22:46:54 <alise> cheater99: Um. I'm 14.
22:47:03 <cheater99> alise: yeah, but i mean when you grow up
22:47:05 <alise> I look very female though :P
22:47:22 <cheater99> lise: tht's not what i'm asking about
22:47:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I just have long hair and a relatively ambiguous face.
22:47:42 <alise> Always capitalise the first letter of sentences
22:47:43 <oklopol> cheater99: i wouldn't say she's very loli
22:47:51 <cheater99> alise, would you make a good t-girl
22:48:07 <alise> cheater99: You just want me to grow breasts, don't you.
22:48:17 <cheater99> oklopol, you should see her in 'live' broadcasts
22:48:27 <alise> haha I thought by she you meant me
22:48:33 <cheater99> alise: i want you to be a magnificent being
22:48:43 <alise> Creepy level rising.
22:48:56 <oklopol> i've seen alise in live broadcasts
22:49:03 <oklopol> or at least ones recorded just for me
22:49:10 <cheater99> alise: you should totally get on stickam
22:49:29 <oklopol> but it was not for masturbation purposes, it was about music
22:49:30 <alise> oklopol: no you haven't :P
22:49:47 <alise> cheater99: It was me demonstrating my inability to play the theremin
22:49:55 <alise> Also, I am not going on webcam.
22:50:00 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
22:50:00 <alise> Clothed or otherwise.
22:50:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
22:50:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's hard. You won't be able to do it.
22:50:19 <oklopol> i'm gonna play one when i go visit alise
22:50:20 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
22:50:27 <cheater99> alise, the key is to maintain relative pitch.. you can't maintain absolute pitch on it
22:50:28 <Sgeo_> When I told her that there are some people who, upon seeing that someone brought their grandmother to IRC, would say dirty things just to be mean, she said she didn't want to talk to that sort of person
22:50:29 <alise> oklopol: I thought I was visiting you
22:50:31 <oklopol> alise is gonna go like WTF DUDE
22:50:56 <Sgeo_> But no, she only knows what I told her of chat, which is very, very, little
22:51:18 <Sgeo_> So she didn't hear anything of lolis, or Tits or GTFO, or any such thing
22:51:29 <alise> Until 2004, massive loudspeakers mounted on several of the buildings continuously delivered DPRK propaganda broadcasts directed towards the south as well as propaganda radio broadcasts across the border.[17] In May 2010, due to the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan, South Korea resumed broadcasting news, western music and programmes comparing the political and economic situations on the two parts of the peninsula.[20]
22:51:38 <cheater99> and i said tits or gtfo to be nice
22:52:02 <oklopol> "<cheater99> alise, the key is to maintain relative pitch.. you can't maintain absolute pitch on it" kinda like you can't sing in absolute pitch
22:52:27 <cheater99> you can sing in absolute pitch *sometimes*
22:52:35 * Sgeo_ wonders if there are good IRC channels for seniors
22:52:46 <alise> there is a list on lemonparty.org
22:52:48 <cheater99> but for this your voice and/or hearing have to be imperfect in very specific ways
22:53:26 <oklopol> cheater99: my point was (you'd know if you'd read my mind) that that's not helpful to alise in any way
22:53:29 <cheater99> actually i don't remember the irc server's domain.. check lemonparty.org for their list of ervers or something
22:53:42 <cheater99> oklopol, that totally didn't come through
22:53:51 <oklopol> well i didn't say anything related to it
22:54:19 <oklopol> i have my own ways of communicating and people seem to love them
22:54:30 <alise> for some reason I'm flattered that cheater99 thinks i should grow breasts
22:54:34 <alise> i don't think that actually makes any sense
22:55:09 <cheater99> that neurovision girl from germany
22:55:13 <alise> lena is presumably that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Meyer-Landrut girl again
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22:55:39 <cheater99> turing was the first trans-sexual in computing!
22:55:55 <alise> also the first snow white
22:55:58 <oklopol> yeah i heard something like he was a gay homosexual
22:56:27 <cheater99> no he wasn't castrated he was given estrogen
22:56:40 <alise> cheater99 speaks truth.
22:56:51 <alise> cheater99: is it really trans/gender/ if he was male, though?
22:57:17 <cheater99> trans-gender means post-op i think
22:57:32 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> "Turing was given a choice between imprisonment or probation conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal treatment designed to reduce libido. He accepted chemical castration via oestrogen hormone injections.[41]"
22:57:41 <oklopol> maybe turing was actually transhuman, and would've outgrown any human sex or gender eventually?
22:57:45 <alise> transgender -- gender identity; i.e. "you" in your mind; transsexual -- genitals
22:57:55 <alise> usually transgendered people have a goal to become transsexuals.
22:58:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: estrogen, though.
22:58:40 <oklopol> i mean he was pretty awesome, much of the stuff neumann is world-famous for was done by turing as well, and iirc turing has some sort of machines named after him too
22:58:48 <alise> ok then hermaphrodite
22:58:59 <oklopol> (probably some sort of gay sex machines but it's still pretty cool)
22:59:12 <cheater99> or do you mean neumann the guy who came up with microphones
22:59:18 <alise> actually i'd probably go for an hermaphroditing operation, that would be cool
22:59:35 * oklopol waits for someone to check if that's even consistent timelinewise
22:59:41 <oklopol> i don't really trust my memory
23:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Look, Turing had oestrogen. This caused him to be chemically castrated (i.e. making him infertile and reducing his libido)
23:00:10 <alise> yeah but post-op gets rid of your penis
23:00:13 <alise> and gives you a bad vagina
23:00:28 <alise> hermaphroditation would keep the peen
23:00:50 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: why do you want this to be looked at, it's irrelevant
23:01:01 <alise> cheater99: ffff why did you link me to that
23:01:08 <alise> cheater99: who said, i'm describing a magical operation
23:01:19 <alise> nobody's thought of how to do it yet, therefore i declare that it produces a perfectly fine vagina
23:01:30 <cheater99> alise: so you know what you're gettin' in2
23:01:57 <alise> cheater99: I never said I would get into it
23:02:05 <alise> I jokingly said I would hypothetically get into a hypothetical operation
23:02:10 <cheater99> <alise> actually i'd probably go for an hermaphroditing operation, that would be cool
23:02:19 <cheater99> *actually* is the opposite of *hypothetically*
23:02:36 <alise> *shut up* is the opposite of *don't shut up*
23:02:44 <alise> "actually, I'd ..."
23:02:47 <alise> if you fix the punctuation
23:02:51 <alise> in this instance actually means
23:02:55 <alise> "contrary to what I previously said, ..."
23:03:03 <oklopol> who wouldn't be hermaphrodited, you'd get to do all kinds of stuff
23:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> I feel it necessary at this point to mention the Culture.
23:03:42 <alise> I want to read the Culture books sometime.
23:05:03 <cheater99> alise: you're trying to talk yourself out of what you are
23:05:47 <alise> cheater99: go and pioneer the hermaphroditing operation then
23:05:52 <alise> i'll be 43rd in line
23:06:06 <cheater99> ok but first you have to jack off to that: http://buckangelentertainment.com/promo/muscleman.jpg
23:06:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I will start at the beginning and continue on until I reach the end, and then stop.
23:06:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well it might go wrong
23:07:06 <alise> I'm sort of doubting that you're not kidding now :P
23:07:12 <oklopol> cheater99: you don't see the pussy that well
23:07:33 <cheater99> oklopol, http://buckangelentertainment.com/promo/laidback.jpg
23:08:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, I'm delaying reading too many books 'til I'm out of the unit.
23:08:24 <alise> Not a clear enough mind to fully enjoy them.
23:08:31 <alise> cheater99: he's 21 or sth
23:08:36 <alise> he's always been this fun
23:09:00 <alise> i'm pretty sure he still looks loli
23:09:03 <alise> although is it loli when it's male
23:09:05 <alise> i don't think it is sir
23:09:49 <alise> have you considered "bi"
23:09:59 <alise> or just plain "pedo" :p
23:10:15 <cheater99> you people must be talking about someone else
23:10:49 <oklopol> "<cheater99> not loli enough anymore ;[" <<< i understood this as you being sad about not being able to get a boner off me anymore
23:11:07 <cheater99> they start off by showing a naked woman
23:11:15 <alise> cheater99: i use sven s porst to get all my german opinions
23:11:33 <alise> he's this guy http://earthlingsoft.net/ssp/blog/
23:13:47 <oklopol> cheater99: it's rude not to answer and not to say you're not gonna
23:13:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:14:13 <cheater99> alise, as in, why are you reading that blog in the first place
23:14:25 <alise> cheater99: because he used to be a nice ranty guy when i used os x and was sufficiently OCD about tiny things that apple fucked up... so i just started reading his blog
23:14:45 <alise> need: "german guy who has opinions": satisfied
23:15:11 <oklopol> do you need finnish guy who has an opinion
23:15:14 <alise> cheater99: well you just asked me an opinion on a german thing
23:15:22 <alise> oklopol: what is your opinion
23:16:00 <alise> oklopol: you said you had an opinion
23:16:04 <cheater99> alise: yes, but i think you said you had that need before you started habitually reading his blog
23:16:23 <alise> oklopol: what is it
23:16:47 <oklopol> i don't particularly care for oranges, because they are hard to eat
23:17:06 <alise> oranges are just a bit meh.
23:17:13 <cheater99> this guy woke up on an operation table
23:17:27 <Sgeo_> That's not a lol thing
23:17:31 -!- kar8nga has joined.
23:17:38 <Sgeo_> That's a HOLY MOTHER OF FUCK PAIN PAIN PAIN PAIN thing
23:17:44 <alise> Sgeo_: no it's a lol thing
23:17:50 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
23:18:01 <Sgeo_> How would you feel if I told you that that happened to me?
23:18:04 <cheater99> wow this is fucking amazingly terrible
23:18:11 <oklopol> in my opinion food should be eatable without any complications, i tolerate a few minutes of preparatory work per serving, but oranges need concentration during the whole eating process, because they spill their spillings everywhere and shit
23:18:15 <Sgeo_> (Note: It didn't happen to me)
23:18:39 <alise> i spill my spillings everywhere and shit LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO
23:18:59 <oklopol> Sgeo_: if it happened to you it would not be funny, if it happened to someone i don't know, it's pretty funny.
23:19:00 <cheater99> half-stripped of flesh in random places
23:19:17 <cheater99> it looks fairly silly but it's believable in the moment
23:19:48 <oklopol> caring about people you don't know is against human nature and makes everyone sad
23:20:27 <Sgeo_> What about people known by people I know?
23:20:43 <alise> you get five degrees
23:20:46 <alise> six includes everyone
23:20:49 <alise> so five is the max
23:21:06 <alise> six degrees of paul erdos
23:21:35 <alise> one degree of hivemind
23:21:49 <alise> actually it would be zero degrees
23:22:15 <oklopol> : i think you should pretend to care about them when interacting with people who know them
23:22:21 <oklopol> that's the humane thing to do
23:22:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, who was that directed to?
23:22:36 <alise> I think that if oklopol were ever to come into control of the world, we would all be fucked.
23:22:42 <alise> And I'm not even sure which sense of the word I mean.
23:23:03 <pikhq_> alise: DOG FOOD FOR EVERYONE
23:23:05 <oklopol> no i would be a great dictator just because they say dictators always go mad with power and kill everyone
23:23:27 <AnMaster> pikhq_, aww, no soylent green?
23:23:30 <oklopol> that sort of reverse psychology works well on me
23:23:42 <alise> oklopol: i would really hate it if you said "quack" right now
23:24:07 <alise> oklopol: it's well known that oklopols do not say "quack".
23:24:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I suggest you say "tweet" right here
23:24:47 <alise> "tweet" right here boy ;P
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23:25:10 <oklopol> be less stupid alise you sound like a 14-yo kid
23:25:22 <oklopol> i want pizza but to get it i would have to make it
23:25:30 <oklopol> which would mean microwave
23:25:48 <alise> just call up a pizza delivery place and give them moneys
23:25:56 <oklopol> but i don't have clothes on
23:26:06 <oklopol> and i don't want to put any one until i absolutely have to
23:26:18 <alise> who said you have to
23:26:37 <oklopol> well i don't want to be creepy
23:26:52 <alise> oklopol: that, my dear friend, you have already failed at.
23:27:34 <Rugxulo> put the money through the mail slot, they'll leave it at the door, get it when they leave
23:27:34 <Sgeo_> I'm considered hivemind?
23:28:08 <oklopol> Rugxulo: that sounds like a really complicated social procedure
23:28:19 <oklopol> "hello pizza bad english man here"
23:28:32 <alise> oklopol: you could use your internet-connected pizza dispenser
23:28:36 <alise> it should be plugged into your computer
23:28:43 <alise> go to pizza:/// to browse the available pizza options for that device
23:28:50 <alise> and you will receive your free internet pizza
23:29:03 <alise> oklopol: haha that works
23:29:42 <AnMaster> alise, you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizza_box_form_factor ?
23:29:54 <oklopol> usually it's the other way around, she's pretty lazy
23:30:07 <alise> http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-01-01-beartato-newyearnewchanges.gif
23:30:14 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, try go on at times I'm more awake
23:30:15 <Rugxulo> dumb question, but do you get out for summer break over there?
23:30:19 <alise> Free internet pizza.
23:30:24 <alise> Rugxulo: partially, I presume.
23:30:31 <alise> AnMaster: unit, presumably.
23:30:49 <AnMaster> uh summer break starts in about 1-2 weeks or such
23:31:04 <Rugxulo> BTW, all I wanted to say the other day was that Erlang seems a bit strange for Befunge-98
23:31:29 <Rugxulo> some (most?) schools over here just started break
23:31:43 <oklopol> alise: are you really embarrassed
23:31:49 <AnMaster> well, last dead line is June 11. for a lab report
23:31:58 <Rugxulo> AnMaster: oh, and Rexx supports bignums out-of-the-box, but it may not be what you want
23:32:02 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death).
23:32:03 <AnMaster> some exams on monday and uh thursday iirc
23:32:18 <Rugxulo> yes, remember I mentioned it before?
23:32:27 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yeah but I don't remember what it was
23:32:43 <Rugxulo> popular scripting language for OS/2 and Amiga and IBM mainframes
23:32:55 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, none of those platforms are relevant to me
23:33:15 <Rugxulo> it's also been ported to most other platforms (see Regina or BRexx for Linux)
23:33:18 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, now, if plan9 had been in the list it might have been different.
23:33:41 <Rugxulo> remember? I mentioned ooREXX, which you didn't seem too impressed with ;-)
23:33:43 <AnMaster> go write befunge98 in it yourself :)
23:33:57 <Rugxulo> don't want or need to (and already wrote B93, which was easy)
23:34:24 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, apart from smalltalk and (to some degree) objc, there are few languages which are doing OOP the "right way" IMO
23:34:36 <Rugxulo> oh, the other advantage of REXX is easy to learn, no reserved keywords, good string handling, etc.
23:34:38 <alise> OOP the right way: "Nothing whatsoever"
23:34:48 <Rugxulo> OOP is a big buzzword for most things these days
23:34:54 <AnMaster> alise, well, relatively speaking. Also I thought you liked smalltalk?
23:34:55 <Rugxulo> almost all languages have it
23:35:03 <Rugxulo> all hyped languages, anyways
23:35:07 <alise> Smalltalk is not "OOP" at all really.
23:35:16 <Rugxulo> yet it inspired Objective-C
23:35:37 <AnMaster> alise, well, maybe, depends on exact definition of OOP
23:35:54 <alise> Ask Alan Kay if you don't believe me :)
23:36:17 <alise> Only the most important person in the history of personal computing.
23:36:33 <alise> Invented the portable computer -- Dynabook; invented Smalltalk; major guy at Xerox PARC...
23:36:40 <alise> No, seriously; ais523 knows who Alan Kay is.
23:36:43 <Rugxulo> what about Douglas Engbart (sp?) ?
23:36:54 <alise> Rugxulo: Yes, him too.
23:37:00 <Rugxulo> RMS invented teh GNU, he pwns Lin00z!
23:37:03 <alise> But seriously... anyone who doesn't know Kay should not be in computing.
23:37:33 <Rugxulo> oh, and don't forget Andy Tannenbaum, Kernighan and Ritchie, Wirth, etc. etc.
23:37:57 <AnMaster> alise, I suck at remembering names. Had to google openbsd to check the name of the guy (Theo de Raadt that is)
23:38:05 <Rugxulo> Fabrice Bellard probably counts too ;-)
23:38:18 <alise> "Actually I made up the term "object-oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind. ...Or Smalltalk." --Alan Kay
23:38:22 <alise> (inventor of Smalltalk)
23:38:53 <pikhq_> I doubt anyone could have C++ in mind when discussing anything vaguely related to good design.
23:39:16 <alise> Seriously, Kay is a genius and even his recent work at VPRI is great.
23:39:21 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
23:39:25 <Rugxulo> C++ is perfect! (five years later) no, now it's perfect! (five years later) okay, seriously, now it's perfect
23:39:42 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it never was and never will be
23:40:09 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Even a *simple* change would make using it less like getting kicked in the crotch: garbage collection.
23:40:16 <Rugxulo> seriously, why does every language get extended into OOP?
23:40:36 <alise> "object-oriented programming is the roman numerals of computing" --Rob Pike.
23:40:43 <pikhq> (still annoying, but god... *Manual memory management* with all that going on.)
23:40:53 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, no. Erlang doesn't have OOP.
23:41:28 <AnMaster> and there is a HUGE resistance to it amongst the core devs.
23:41:48 <Rugxulo> every other language seems to tack it on
23:41:50 <pikhq> Rugxulo: Haskell allows for abstract datatypes which can contain functions that can close over the value of that abstract datatype.
23:42:07 <AnMaster> alise, do you know why erlang doesn't JIT btw? Because it makes the (soft) realtime properties harder to predict
23:42:12 <pikhq> Thus, it allows for OOP by accident. :P
23:42:23 <alise> soft and welcoming.
23:42:32 <alise> pikhq: i turned you into a haskell zealot
23:42:33 * Rugxulo gives Erlang an Exlax so it can JIT properly
23:42:39 <oklopol> Zuu: btw you are familiar with thue right?
23:42:42 <pikhq> (note: no mutation, thus making "OOP" not useful.)
23:43:17 <AnMaster> unless... no it can't be that bad
23:43:24 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yes I know what a laxative is
23:43:25 <Rugxulo> JIT as in rhyming with sh*t
23:43:37 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, okay even worse than I thought
23:43:38 * Rugxulo has to explain his horribly corny joke, ugh, sounds worse than it was
23:43:39 <pikhq> Rugxulo: You seem to not grok what a JIT does.
23:43:55 <pikhq> You seem to make terrible puns.
23:43:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, I thought it was a pun on "shit just in time or such"
23:44:06 <Rugxulo> yes, I admit, my humor is lame
23:44:14 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, worse than mine in fact
23:45:01 <oklopol> yeah that was horribly bad
23:45:27 <oklopol> sometimes i like to poop out these horribly bad jokes just because i can
23:45:42 <alise> ah, here's some demonstration of elliottcable faggotry
23:45:47 <alise> [[/* I wrote Hello, world! for whatever mad, mad genius wrote this version of Brainfuck: http://pastie.org/private/siw6uoan1cd6shuao7r8hw */]]
23:46:00 <alise> mad, mad genius for OMG REASSIGNING SOME OF THE BRAINFUCK COMMANDS TO BE SIMILAR LOOKING SYMBOLS
23:46:06 <alise> and ``unicode quotes''
23:47:01 -!- gm|lap has joined.
23:47:04 <oklopol> how can the parens be un matched like that
23:47:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, I think it is two columns?
23:47:35 <alise> one of those is one instruction
23:47:39 <alise> HAHAHA EVIL GENIUSDF sdoijghk hAHAhasf
23:48:06 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Quit: Ayttm logging off).
23:48:11 <AnMaster> alise, so yes I think it is two columns, one weird, and one C
23:48:13 <alise> Wow, elliottcable calls **s "metapointers".
23:48:24 <alise> http://gist.github.com/402586
23:48:29 <AnMaster> alise, would ***s be hyperpointers then?
23:48:30 <alise> apparently the name of the language is "bewbs"
23:48:33 <alise> ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
23:48:48 <alise> http://gist.github.com/290108 you make me want to murder your person
23:48:53 <AnMaster> oh wait, superpointers, ****s would be hyperpointer
23:48:56 <alise> http://gist.github.com/raw/295344/fbf2ac6ab9e5df7414a126d8f98272ee745d0fcd/gistfile1.txt <-- ITT: irritating retard
23:49:07 <alise> (elliottcable that is)
23:49:11 <alise> also he's a republican
23:49:18 <alise> I.E.: he likes sarah palin
23:49:49 <alise> also, he was part of the overnight Let's Fuck Up IRCNomic with Stupid Rules that Only Further the Game's Demise, then Say "lol" About It brigade
23:49:56 <alise> what I am saying is: if he returns here...
23:50:01 <alise> let's tell him to fuck off
23:50:21 <alise> i'm absent 5/7 weekdays.
23:50:23 <Sgeo_> alise, I don't remember that
23:50:33 <alise> Sgeo_: i was the only one who read the logs
23:50:51 <Sgeo_> Do the logs still exist anywhere?
23:50:58 <Sgeo_> Also, iirc, I sold my soul to you
23:51:40 <oklopol> i think metapointer might be okay terminology in some contexts
23:51:48 <alise> oklopol: he just made it up to sound faggy there though
23:51:52 <alise> and to cover up the fact that he doesn't know C
23:51:58 <alise> also note that he painstakingly uses unicode ellipses
23:52:02 <alise> where three .s would do
23:52:09 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:52:18 <alise> < clusty>what does dmesg have to say abut it?
23:52:18 <alise> -!- You're now known as dmesg
23:52:18 <alise> -!- You're now known as elliottcable
23:52:22 <alise> ha ha HAHAHAHAHAhahash
23:52:25 <alise> that's fucking hilarious.
23:52:33 <oklopol> yes that was horrible, that's like non-monospaced^7 when you take ... and squeeze it in one letter
23:52:50 <alise> http://elliottcable.tumblr.com/post/614173094/http-elliottcable-tumblr-com-post-389548350-terna half the posts on his blog are just himself being fucktarded
23:53:13 <AnMaster> alise, are you obsessed with this guy or?
23:53:22 <oklopol> well of course, they have the same name
23:53:29 <alise> it's just he was a huge fucking retard & asshole to me a while back
23:53:30 * Sgeo_ is very curious about what alise says behind my back
23:53:35 <alise> so I decided to dredge up everything about him I could
23:53:45 <alise> to admire how idiotic he was
23:53:57 <alise> also all of this is very easy to find in like a few clicks and i don't have anything else to do
23:54:28 <oklopol> http://elliottcable.tumblr.com/post/597606519/we-want-to-fly-the-plane-say-snakes-but <<< xD
23:55:02 -!- Rugxulo has joined.
23:55:53 <pikhq> Well, your mother is a bitch.
23:56:19 <Sgeo_> Hm, why does Pandora have my RL name?
23:56:21 <Rugxulo> slightly warm pre-summer weather
23:56:34 <pikhq> It's a conspiracy, Sgeo.
23:56:45 <alise> Sgeo_: I don't know Seth Gold
23:56:49 <cheater99> oklopol, i didn't get the one about plane/tail
23:56:51 <alise> How does Pandora have Seth Gold's real name?
23:57:17 <Sgeo_> They have my FB picture
23:57:31 <oklopol> cheater99: i don't get it either
23:57:37 <Sgeo_> I don't remember signing onto FB from my normal Pandora account
23:57:41 <Sgeo_> I might have signed in once
23:57:44 <oklopol> it was just such an absurd reference
23:57:44 <Rugxulo> I think Facebook lets you share some info with other domains now
23:57:54 <Sgeo_> It's like it tracked the fact that I signed on from normal, and FB, from the same computer
23:57:57 <Rugxulo> probably got lost amongst all their privacy changes
23:57:58 <Sgeo_> And now has connected them
23:57:59 <oklopol> no idea what he was going for
23:58:20 <Rugxulo> Sgeo, don't worry about it until it bites you (which is probably never)
23:59:08 <Sgeo_> alise, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGAkpRncNbQ
23:59:13 * Rugxulo counts the shots ... nope, not lucky enough
23:59:39 <cheater99> and i don't know why i typed the 'g' there, gvim needs to get out of my head
23:59:58 <Rugxulo> because everything must be graphical or OOP (or preferably both), you will be assimilated!