< 1275350432 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a log of everyone who's walked off the edge of the world < 1275350436 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm emailing it to myse < 1275350437 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :f < 1275350448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that sucicide < 1275350450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's only temporary < 1275350452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*suicide < 1275350472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1275350474 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first suicide was Tue Apr 19 00:43:48 1994 PDT < 1275350477 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night AnMaster < 1275350482 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1275350488 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last was... this month < 1275350503 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, Alec is addicted to walking off the edge of the world < 1275350513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1275350531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: What's beyond this edge... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1275350553 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/986515 < 1275350650 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just sent em a mail < 1275350672 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275350684 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1275350761 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastie.org/986517 < 1275350770 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1275350780 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-17-215.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1275350830 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275350984 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides it's a good thing he didn't try 'I want to leave LambdaMOO for three months' with quotes
< 1275351075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to do something unprecedented. < 1275351083 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want to help me code this music daemon? < 1275351104 0 :Oranjer1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275351146 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1275351166 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275351270 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1275351274 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275351321 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@150.140.227.55 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275351404 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You step into the great gap to the west, your eyes shut tight. When you open them, you're back in the Real World again. Enjoy it. < 1275351436 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1275351442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you suicide :P < 1275351479 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, just read the source < 1275351500 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275351520 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should be able to make a simulation < 1275351596 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't delete your mail, you can't walk off the edge < 1275351669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1275351773 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome. There is a pistol for Russian Roulette < 1275351783 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shooting it can newt you for 1-6 days < 1275352192 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: how likely do you think it is for a track title to have a tab in it? < 1275352265 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not particularly. < 1275352301 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1275352318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Hmm... but if I'm supporting arbitrary Vorbis* metadata... < 1275352322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Yes, it's actually Vorbis-specific. < 1275352326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much for the Ogg container. < 1275352397 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275352411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Oh, I know! I'll use XML! < 1275352419 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I thought that metadata was stuck in an Ogg Text stream? < 1275352425 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ugh* < 1275352437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently not < 1275352443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, now I have two problems! (I'm not actually using XML) < 1275352476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Also, although FLAC files work inside an Ogg container, very little software supports this, and FLAC has its own metadata format! This is because FLAC wasn't always a Xiph.Org project!~ < 1275352482 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUN FUN FUCK ME IN THE ASS! < 1275352485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate software < 1275352498 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So: Ogg sucks. < 1275352509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. It's a container that... just contains. Literally. Nothing else. < 1275352522 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh; that's such a pain. < 1275352537 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if only Matroska didn't have an obsession with XML. < 1275352555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorbis metadata, called Vorbis comments, support metadata tags similar to those implemented in the ID3 standard for MP3. The metadata is stored in a vector of eight-bit-clean strings of arbitrary length and size. The size of the vector and the size of each string in bytes is limited to 232-1 (about 4.3 billion, or any positive integer that can be expressed in 32 bits). This vector is stored in the second header packet that begins a Vorbis bitstream.[43] < 1275352564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY GOD, LIMITED TO 4.3 BILLION BYTES. < 1275352587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I didn't know Matroshka used XML. It's always worked well for me. < 1275352596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should all use Matroshka. < 1275352618 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, this makes me wonder why there aren't any good standardised command-with-binary-arguments specs. < 1275352621 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about WebM? < 1275352623 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ASN.1 does that doesn't it? Ew. < 1275352630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: no. < 1275352642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only contains vp8 and vorbis. and is a sideset of matroshka < 1275352647 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an insane subset of matroshka, with its own shit! yay! < 1275352652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM SO HAPPY. < 1275352665 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's some binary XML... Thing. < 1275352763 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1275352787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x := ! "\1";; msg := x {"\1" x}+ "\r\n";; < 1275352797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xs should be preprocessed afterwards < 1275352800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to replace: < 1275352808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\2\2 with a \1 < 1275352812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and \2\3 with a \2 < 1275352814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tada. < 1275352819 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275352919 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although \2 is kind of ugly. < 1275352926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then \255 is more common, isn't it? < 1275352929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UTF-8 and all. < 1275352942 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: I'd just use \0, but ... C. < 1275352990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The IPC protocol is best documented in the source. But we encourage all developers to use the clientlib, is there something that the clientlib doesn't support or you don't like. Talk to us first before you start reversing our protocol." < 1275352993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs documentation. < 1275353285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: PUKE! xmms2 uses glib! < 1275353294 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I died. I'm outside the Pearly Gates < 1275353321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is my DUTY to create something betts! < 1275353326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*better than this < 1275353451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Happy June! < 1275353456 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something! < 1275353677 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275353678 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1275353774 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275353847 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, join LambdaMOO < 1275353860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it seems that I am in need of a tag-processing library. < 1275353862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Call it graffiti. < 1275353892 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could make an esotericers's hangout < 1275353897 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A BF machine < 1275354105 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: glib! AAARGHTHATMUSTDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIEDIE < 1275354106 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALSODIE < 1275354129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Don't you like the soft feeling of a GObject class with all its furry little fields? < 1275354140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And those in-code declarations of it... aren't they wonderful?... < 1275354148 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so it doesn't actually seem to define classes itself. But still! < 1275354161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aand immediate problem reached; build systems suck. < 1275354164 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh the boilerplate! < 1275354183 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, build systems are universally awful. < 1275354197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCons is definitely waful... < 1275354205 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-15-115.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1275354208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CMake is most definitely awful... Oh, what's that one I'm thinking of... < 1275354209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*awful < 1275354216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makepp thing is probably awful... < 1275354217 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Autotools*. < 1275354241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: NO. < 1275354248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please suffer. < 1275354256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will not use Autotools. < 1275354271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: Or was that not a suggestion? < 1275354438 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275354442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<pikhq_> *Autotools*. < 1275354442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> pikhq_: NO. < 1275354443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> Please suffer. < 1275354443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> I will not use Autotools. < 1275354443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<alise> pikhq_: Or was that not a suggestion? < 1275354539 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1275354542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Waf looks alright: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waf < 1275354548 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275354607 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275354690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That was an example of a truly awful build system. < 1275354696 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1275354699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'll just use http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waf < 1275354706 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen others use it and the example looks not-abhorrent < 1275354740 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also, no dependencies, in that it's a single file that only depends on Python that you include with your distribution. < 1275354742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yay? < 1275354777 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I get the feeling that a package maintainer will develop hatred for that. < 1275354787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You don't edit that. < 1275354789 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You edit the wscript file. < 1275354795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not because Waf itself is abhorrent but becaust some idiot *will* invariably edit it and make it abhorrent. < 1275354802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*because < 1275354811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You mean... someone will edit... the bundled waf? < 1275354818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well fuck, I'm not going to do that. < 1275354823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd have to be retarded to do that. < 1275354840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But anyway, it automatically does out-of-tree builds and seems to be structured well, so ++ < 1275354881 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uorygl, login? < 1275354882 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1275354895 0 :mibygl!~62d188c5@gateway/web/freenode/x-lfsnfswvumgyxtcc JOIN :#esoteric < 1275354902 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: I'm afraid I'm currently a bit jaded from nomics and their brethren for the moment. Ask again tomorrow. < 1275354914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def set_options(ctx): < 1275354914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ctx.add_option('--foo', action='store', default=False, help='Silly test') < 1275354914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def configure(ctx): < 1275354914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : print('→ the value of foo is %r' % Options.options.foo) < 1275354916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How... sane. < 1275354924 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mibygl: Jaded? Why? and MOOs are hardly nomics. < 1275354933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks Agora to investigate possible reasons
< 1275354935 0 :uorygl!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275354947 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've barely looked at Agora in a longish time. < 1275354969 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275354979 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I discovered them... a while ago, and it seems like they've never gone in the direction I've wanted them to. < 1275354985 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, jading. < 1275355080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1275355128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: As a sysadmin, can you answer?: What do people have against using globs for c files in build systems? < 1275355134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C files aren't just going to magically appear there. < 1275355180 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No clue. < 1275355203 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's perfectly acceptable to sysadmins for such a glob to be there. < 1275355212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : source = bld.path.ant_glob('**/*.c'), < 1275355218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope that 'ant' doesn't mean "ant build system". < 1275355223 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I don't know why I hope that, as it's just a globbing function. < 1275355353 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise hello < 1275355356 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waves
< 1275355397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello. < 1275355408 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275355435 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how r u? < 1275355444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irritated. < 1275355453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Absolutely irritated. < 1275355487 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1275355535 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not you < 1275355540 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care about you pikhq < 1275355543 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was asking alise < 1275355677 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok seriously shut up < 1275355692 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1275356434 0 :CakeProp1et!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1275356554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay, waf is starting to annoy me. XD < 1275356581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[The bad part of alise's brain pipes up. "Surely it can't be so hard? It's only one file for waf... so why not write... your own?"] < 1275356701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This explanation is pretty boring so I'm going to spice it up with inappropriate swearing. < 1275356701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mother fucking sinkhole like this bitch is formed by the gradual dissolution of punk ass subsurface rock (usually rock such as limestone or mother fucking carbonate rock) by circulating ground water. As the rock dissolves, big ass spaces and slutty caverns develop underground until only a bitch thin layer of support remains on top. At one shit-wank point that fucking layer also collapses revealing the years of titty fucking erosion beneath, and often an un < 1275356701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derground skank river far below. < 1275356701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a mother fucking diagram." < 1275356742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1275357340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY #WAF IS DEAD THIS IRRITATES ME. < 1275357343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Suggest me a build system < 1275357401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Make it a single C file. < 1275357431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Like SQLite! < 1275357609 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1275357613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G O D! < 1275357629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have all this shit written here and it's just BULLSHIT! Here's what I should have to write: < 1275357642 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1275357698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :build-root: build < 1275357698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c-program { < 1275357698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sources: **/*.c < 1275357698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : target: belial < 1275357698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : cflags: -Wall -Wextra < 1275357698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : release { cflags: -O2 } < 1275357701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : debug { cflags: -g } < 1275357702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1275357815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please tell me to have the strength not to proliferate another build system. < 1275357843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Have the strength to instead obsolete all languages that require nontrivial build systems. < 1275357859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, I've already that. But C is the best thing for this, unfortunately. < 1275358177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But... it is a bad idea right? < 1275358215 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I made a simulation of the edge of the world < 1275358227 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's not perfect... it will allow you to walk off even if you have mail < 1275358239 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hm, MOO habits are starting to get to me < 1275358419 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-205-116.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275359056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How queer; xmms always builds without optimisations. < 1275359064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, it uses -O0 -g. < 1275359065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Always. < 1275359138 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's... Awful. < 1275359206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I think because it's "developmental software" etc. < 1275359247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want LLVM to get a native -> IR disassembler so that it can optimize anything < 1275359266 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong with -O0 -g? < 1275359273 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Slow and big. < 1275359287 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Any reason? < 1275359319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No optimisations done, debugging info. < 1275359321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any questions? < 1275359333 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can at least strip it < 1275359386 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still big. < 1275359387 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I meant, why does it build with those options? < 1275359402 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a lot of *ridiculously* simple stuff GCC doesn't do on -O0. < 1275359403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so what build system do YOU use. < 1275359406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: stop doing that " thing. < 1275359415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: and because they couldn't figure out how to make waf work either i guess :P < 1275359416 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::wonders why it's angering alise < 1275359421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BECAUSE THIS IS IRC. < 1275359440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, each and every memory access involves a load and a write. < 1275359441 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Whatever the project uses < 1275359443 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first time, it really was an accident < 1275359463 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waf? < 1275359496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if you start a project? < 1275359578 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I usually build by hand to start since I want to avoid a build system as long as possible, and the project never gets to a point where I need one < 1275359591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1275359599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm only doing this first so it doesn't come back to bite me in the ass < 1275359621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i will just use coadjute < 1275359622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant! < 1275359623 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I need one, I pick randomly whichever one seems least bad to me at the time, currently Scons < 1275359628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that advisable? < 1275359633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: scons is unmaintained basically < 1275359651 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :close, but not quite < 1275359664 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also comparable with jabbing forks in the eye. < 1275359682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh? < 1275359684 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to what? CMake? < 1275359700 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Scons is not a build system. < 1275359710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a library with which one can write a build system. < 1275359722 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I half agree < 1275359726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: indeed < 1275359734 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's not even a good library. < 1275359745 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm almost considering http://omake.metaprl.org/index.html now < 1275359751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a purely-functional language and < 1275359752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Often, a configuration file is as simple as a single line < 1275359752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.DEFAULT: $(CProgram prog, foo bar baz) < 1275359752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which states that the program "prog" is built from the files foo.c, bar.c, and baz.c. This one line will also invoke the default standard library scripts for discovering implicit dependencies in C files (such as dependencies on included header files)." < 1275359754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is giving me false hope. < 1275359761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But seriously, Coadjute is ... good. < 1275359769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need assurance for Deewiant that it's good for C :P < 1275359775 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it /is/ a library with which one can write a build system, but it also comes with sufficient defaults to be used only as a build system < 1275359779 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The identifying number associated with an object is unique to that object. It was assigned when the object was created and will never be reused, even if the object is destroyed. Thus, if we create an object and it is assigned the number `#1076', the next object to be created will be assigned `#1077', even if `#1076' is destroyed in the meantime." < 1275359784 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's misleading, kind of < 1275359792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("With support for: [...] Haskell!") < 1275359794 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds like SQL < 1275359826 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can someone explain Sgeo's cow obssession? < 1275359833 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, at a physical level, that's how it works, but in general, LambdaCore's @recycle actually transforms the object into garbage, which can be used by @create < 1275359840 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in reality, object IDs are reused < 1275359859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: cow? < 1275359863 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moo < 1275359869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lulz. < 1275359887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know what this is bullshit, why do build systems suck < 1275359912 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is saddened that he got it before alise did
< 1275359937 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275359938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1275359986 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is so depressing < 1275360020 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because they have a ridiculous number of variables to cope with < 1275360029 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scons is an excellent example of the why < 1275360031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I JUST WANT TO BUILD A C PROGRAM. < 1275360047 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then Scons will possibly do < 1275360054 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so will CMake < 1275360056 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or autotools < 1275360060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Sysadmin! Why is scons shit for you? < 1275360065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: haha have you ever used cmake < 1275360068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or autotools) < 1275360084 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. They are in fact capable of building things... not much else, though. < 1275360111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although really, the same could arguably said of Scons < 1275360135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment < 1275360151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other. < 1275360155 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to work out what he's trying to say
< 1275360163 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me, you mean < 1275360166 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1275360169 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, sorry, she < 1275360174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol :P < 1275360178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also have accepted "it" < 1275360182 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It is *absolutely awful* to automate. Absolutely *awful*. < 1275360188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I was expecting "they're" < 1275360190 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote cmake is a nuclear powered waffle iron powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment and it burns one of the waffles and doesn't touch the other. < 1275360191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1275360193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I was expecting "you're" < 1275360198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: HackEgo is broken < 1275360203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: third person with /me < 1275360207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so explanation: < 1275360209 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1275360211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At the very least cmake and autotools can be scripted. < 1275360213 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why? < 1275360219 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(genuinely curious) < 1275360225 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a) nuclear powered waffle iron -- it's meant to build programs. Instead, it's a full-blown, shitty programming language < 1275360240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(b) Powered by a burning-hot testicle attachment -- EDITING CMAKELISTS.TXT MAKES ME WANT TO KILL THINGS < 1275360254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(c) and it burns ... -- it's really hard to get it to work and you have to hack it a ton. < 1275360274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: There is no single way to say simple, simple things like "I want to use this compiler" or "I want to use these compiler flags". < 1275360293 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ah, yeah. < 1275360301 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just have to *hope* that the bastard who used scons was so kind as to *write configuration logic*. < 1275360302 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that bit's always dumbfounded me < 1275360311 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the plus side, the cache is epic < 1275360333 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a guy at the place I used to work came up with the brilliant idea of hardlinking the cache, which makes it even more epic < 1275360334 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That bit makes sysadmins WANT TO KILL YOU FLAY YOU AND PRESERVE THE SKIN AS WARNING TO OTHER DEVELOPERS. < 1275360338 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is THAT. FUCKING. BAD. < 1275360421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(seriously - no copying costs? YES PLEASE) < 1275360484 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What's best for you apart from autotools? < 1275360511 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the cache is an absolute godsend if you have generated headers included by everything < 1275360530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well-written makefile. < 1275360544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Mm. < 1275360555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It's just that for a *developer* that's the worst solution :-) < 1275360559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A poorly-written one makes me kill people. A well-written one means I hit make and all's well. < 1275360559 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Second best? < 1275360573 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure. < 1275360581 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A well-written makefile is usually pretty awesome, until you try to move outside its problem domain < 1275360596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Autoscons - An Autotools replacement for SCons" < 1275360604 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just have to *hope* that the bastard who used make was so kind as to *write configuration logic*. < 1275360625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Except that's actually the default. < 1275360654 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It takes *extra work* to make it not handle CFLAGS and CC. < 1275360682 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc -Wall -Wextra foo.c main.c -o result ? < 1275360709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat Makefile -- foo: foo.o bar.o < 1275360713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make -- builds it < 1275360723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make CC=... CFLAGS=... LDFLAGS=... CPPFLAGS=... -- builds it < 1275360768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Do you actually do that in make? < 1275360778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://miller.emu.id.au/pmiller/software/cook/ This looks tempting. pikhq hates me now < 1275360788 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless make uses lots of magic that I don't know about, you still need to write the Makefile to use those variables, which is not a lot of effort, but is still greater than 0 < 1275360794 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: cook? I recall nice things about it. < 1275360803 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Make uses a lot of magic that you don't know about. < 1275360804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Except that Nobody Has It :-) < 1275360810 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: default rules < 1275360813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, that's the only bad thing. :P < 1275360816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: welcome to 80s < 1275360839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Write that as: result: foo.o main.o < 1275360844 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1275360857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, well-written then < 1275361073 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Query: What is release/debug enum? Build type? Build kind? Something one-word. < 1275361088 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard variant < 1275361113 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was another term though < 1275361115 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um... < 1275361187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Anyways. When it comes down to build systems, the biggest thing is the ability to automatically configure nearly everything. This means accepting "CC" and "CFLAGS", making it easy to turn off configurable dependencies, etc. < 1275361197 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second biggest thing is *not being freaking broken*. < 1275361204 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that integers and floating-point numbers are never equal to one another, even in the `obvious' cases. < 1275361206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I absolutely hate having to *rewrite* a build system. < 1275361210 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that saves some confusion < 1275361224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still has nightmares from rewriting a Perl build-system to not be interactive
< 1275361232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(said Perl build-system didn't work) < 1275361237 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1275361239 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interactive? < 1275361246 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. *Interactive*. < 1275361270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This was for a package that included, in effect, its own OS. Because it was older than UNIX and later ported. < 1275361289 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still have nightmares. < 1275361294 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and had a *Perl* build system? < 1275361299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1275361308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still maintained. < 1275361316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By idiots, but still maintained. < 1275361445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Name the perps. < 1275361449 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRAF. < 1275361462 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some university; don't recall who did it. < 1275361475 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was originally proprietary, made GPL later. < 1275361487 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found that what's absolutely *worst* is proprietary software that gets an open release. < 1275361510 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proprietary software tends to suffer from truly massive NIH syndrome. < 1275361522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, there's Second Life. < 1275361526 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conversely, the best in my experience is open-source stuff with significant corporate backying < 1275361527 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*backing < 1275361528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which includes its own copy of the STL. < 1275361531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(written poorly) < 1275361536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Also agreed. < 1275361566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they have every incentive to do it right. < 1275361601 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think MOO was inspired by Perl < 1275361611 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{first, second, ?third = 0} = args; < 1275361618 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, that doesn't seem to do anything about GCC. < 1275361653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no excuse for its build system. < 1275361656 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Mozilla. < 1275361657 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's because it's run by people (a person?) who think(s) that all the corporate backers are trying to steal from them/him < 1275361658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1275361660 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mozilla. < 1275361686 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They recently approved C++ for use... can you say clusterfuck? < 1275361700 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Most GNU stuff has painful code, but it's at least got a reasonably automatible build system. < 1275361707 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC is the exception. < 1275361722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works differently than everything else for no good reason. < 1275361766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course, if you look into the details, autotools is awful, but it's at least easy on the surface.) < 1275361772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK THIS SHIT < 1275361781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ? < 1275361782 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KILL ME < 1275361785 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that it has to bootstrap itself pretty much tosses the idea of using any build system that exists in a normal fashion < 1275361788 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCKING BUILD SYSTEMS < 1275361809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: First: not really. Second: it doesn't have to bootstrap itself. < 1275361824 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuckin' 3am, fuckin' have to get up at 9am, fuckin' A < 1275361830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 hours of sleep < 1275361833 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckin' AAAAA++++++ < 1275361835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does if the compiler it's using isn't GCC-compatible, which any portable build system should assume is not the case < 1275361859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Still, it shouldn't be hard to at least make a *sane* build system for that. < 1275361868 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true < 1275361880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfucikfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck < 1275361880 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it is custom, you can at least not make it incomprehensible. < 1275361888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that's a surprisingly low rate of fuckerrors. < 1275361894 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only one error; an "i". < 1275361908 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it actually wouldn't be too much work with Scons. Autotools will cry if you try. Not enough experience with CMake to know. < 1275361952 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: stop complaining about errors and go to sleep < 1275361953 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, GCC should build on targets that Python doesn't run on. < 1275361965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: FUCK YOU I JUST WANT A BUILD SYSTEM :'( < 1275361981 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Does it really require Python now too? < 1275361983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles "build system that doesn't suck" out of desperation
< 1275361987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Waf: a pleasant build system" < 1275361990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAHAHAHAHA < 1275362000 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: scons does. < 1275362011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WAF IS LIKE A GIGANTIC SANITY-VIOLATING COCK < 1275362011 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, yeah :) < 1275362013 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275362017 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1275362029 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sounds like you've become a sysadmin. < 1275362030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1275362036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let that go down in history as my official anti-endorsement < 1275362047 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least very very depressed. < 1275362049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Makefile are not modular. Recursive Make is especially evil." < 1275362052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be "Makefiles". < 1275362054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail at grammar. < 1275362062 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not only are your opinions worthless, so is your English. < 1275362066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should die in a fire now. < 1275362097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The execution model just makes sense to me." < 1275362103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You dying JUST MAKES SENSE to me. Like, now. In a fire. < 1275362108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Progress indication and colored output is built in, not an after thought. Like SCons, Waf build files are regular Python files." < 1275362113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray, coloured fucking output < 1275362119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Waf is fast. Faster than SCons." < 1275362124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike your death which will be painfully slow < 1275362216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha kill me < 1275362222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must sleep soon, but first painful agonising death < 1275362264 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should make a fortunes database from alise < 1275362272 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called `quote < 1275362291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i'm usually not this funny, at least i think i'm being funny right now, mostly out of anger though < 1275362353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Have you considered bakefiles? They work in the same way as cmake does, and I have seen them used in practice before. http://bakefile.sourceforge.net/" < 1275362358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STOP PUTTING A CONSONANT BEFORE "AKEFILE" < 1275362362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT HAS STOPPED BEING AMUSING < 1275362363 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a) `quote isn't working b) I can't do 'fortune alise' with quote < 1275362366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IN FACT, EVEN "AKEFILE" WOULD BE BETTER < 1275362377 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Iakefile < 1275362382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: !AKEFILE? < 1275362388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, that's a click) < 1275362389 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps "yourmotherhascancerandyourfatherdiedofaidsandalsoyouaregoingtodieverysooninanonspontaneouscombustion". < 1275362393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :File. < 1275362408 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bakefile's task is to generate native makefiles," < 1275362409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Racist fuck. < 1275362422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH! It's XML! < 1275362425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel HAPPY! < 1275362464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LinBuild is a Python-based, simple and user-friendly build system for C/C++ on Linux/Unix. It's intended to be distributed with your project, so there's no need to get it installed on the system. < 1275362465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LinBuild adopts some concepts from Waf and CMake and it is simply a single script that depends only on Python. LinBuild replaces GNU Make and makes it really easy to configure, build & install a C/C++ project. < 1275362465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LinBuild features e.g. automatic build dependency scanning of source files, multi-threaded build process and built-in supports for Qt4 and pkg-config. < 1275362467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's SHIT or not. < 1275362481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it's shit. < 1275362490 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All this because C is too shitty to handle the equivalent of "ghc --make" < 1275362494 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which I love) < 1275362518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It feels like a gigantic cock transmitted through my speakers is penetrating my forehead with hatred < 1275362525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not in a good way, either < 1275362594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! Look! Linbuild is just like waf except it violates Python coding conventions. < 1275362626 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should organize a #esoteric coding marathon < 1275362630 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where we each pick a program the world needs < 1275362632 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and code it < 1275362639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good idea. Let's make it last 10 years. < 1275362647 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that won't get done < 1275362653 0 :augur!~augur@modemcable158.221-59-74.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1275362654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But we won't make it good otherwise. < 1275362718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh i know what's gone wrong < 1275362720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I named it belial < 1275362722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1275362724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obvious curse < 1275362732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ah, no wonder. < 1275362746 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmm. mk? < 1275362765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :target belial < 1275362765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc **/*.c < 1275362765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc.flags := [-Wall -Wextra] < 1275362765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(variant = "debug") => cc.flags += -g < 1275362765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(variant = "release") => cc.flags += -O2 < 1275362772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoops look at that i just made a non-shitty build system < 1275362777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear that's not permissible < 1275362778 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops. < 1275362814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay, I'm requesting System Administrator's Permission to write a build system on the provisio that it has minimal dependencies, is designed to be bundled with its file, and really, really, honestly, truly doesn't suck. < 1275362834 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*privoso. s? < 1275362844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bundled with its file < 1275362845 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err i mean like < 1275362847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bundled with the project < 1275362868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Praise be unto the idea. < 1275362893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pity you are short on time to write code ATM. < 1275362897 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amen, amen, oh!, amen. Thank you Lord. < 1275362904 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah! But I return the next after-noon. < 1275362913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the day after, it is a most wondrous day: for that is a day free of obligations. < 1275362913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alas! < 1275362921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't "Alas!" negative, sir?! < 1275362932 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275362934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! I am sorry! my existence displeases you. < 1275362938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will shoot myself now. < 1275362952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nay, it be both positive and negative, bearing 'pon context, my good sir. < 1275363011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am enlightened as to the Glorious Tongue, stealing as it does from those best of the other tongues; just like religion! < 1275363062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed; indeed. < 1275363117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can I make a huge request of you, esteemed sir? -- I am barely even able to recognise myself in making it, for I strive to be humble -- but could you remind me presently, the next time I am on this forum of discussion -- to continue the gifted work you have set me? < 1275363137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_! It is time. < 1275363147 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, :( bye < 1275363156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Such a request, indeed, I can grant. < 1275363156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: here, you can have the job < 1275363159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1275363160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay then < 1275363160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1275363161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1275363161 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1275363187 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And may you have luck in that land with the shadow of Death upon ye! < 1275363197 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hope you didn't spend the day not working at moving < 1275363229 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, assuming there was something you could have done today, with the holiday and all... I really don't know the procedures < 1275363250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275363383 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1275363558 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275363693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1275363697 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275363703 0 :augur!~augur@modemcable158.221-59-74.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1275364002 0 :mibygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1275364207 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1275365518 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275365525 0 :augur!~augur@modemcable158.221-59-74.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1275365538 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275365595 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275365693 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1275366160 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275366182 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I'm going to consider LambdaMOO insecure < 1275366218 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just now? < 1275368388 0 :augur!~augur@modemcable158.221-59-74.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1275372840 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1275373327 0 :Ilari_antrcomp!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: What's so insecure about it? < 1275373348 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari_antrcomp, I was able to make an object that didn't have #1 as an ancestor < 1275373374 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If someone tries looking at it, they'll just get an error < 1275373436 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how's that insecure? < 1275373503 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could put it in a public place and it would prevent anyone from seeing anything ther < 1275373505 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*there < 1275373511 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1275373517 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I thin < 1275373520 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*think < 1275373602 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it's difficult to destroy < 1275373627 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not impossible < 1275373636 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope I'm not screwing up the $recycler somehow < 1275373648 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because things that go there don't actually get destroyed, just reparented < 1275373665 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, it's now $garbage < 1275374875 0 :Maelstromg!~c98d886d@gateway/web/freenode/x-pozpcfwuasvaszei JOIN :#esoteric < 1275375334 0 :Maelstromg!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275375534 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1275375538 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does HTTP stop at midnight < 1275375564 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can someone google me an alternate-port proxy? < 1275375860 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1275376012 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-3-10.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275376251 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275376278 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-3-10.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275376635 0 :relet!~hirtho@159.162.68.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275376720 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275376856 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1275376884 0 :Gregor-L!~Gregor@67-129-37-226.dia.static.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275376892 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor < 1275377887 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1275378741 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1275378872 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@67-129-37-226.dia.static.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275379199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1275379200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1275380375 0 :MigoMipo!~John@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275380496 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275380990 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275381259 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275381380 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1275381926 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1275381983 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! < 1275381994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hides
< 1275382011 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DON'T SHOUT AT ME oh wait < 1275382065 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't shouting... < 1275382115 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i distinctly noted an exclamation mark < 1275382148 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not the same as shouting. < 1275382184 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And anyway, I always do that when people enter. < 1275382186 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU'RE NOT FOOLING ME!!!!!!!!!!1111111ELEVEN < 1275382312 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just jealous of your topology skills. < 1275382323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MWAHAHAHAHA* < 1275382333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(shouting is mandatory in this situation) < 1275382482 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LambdaMOO's housekeeper is dead < 1275382571 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : why does HTTP stop at midnight <-- clearly you have the cinderella option < 1275382819 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo_: Do you always go on about dying virtual worlds? < 1275382845 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, Second Life isn't widely considered to be dying < 1275382870 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you don't go on about it. < 1275382970 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do when I'm interested in it < 1275383012 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, like the floating-point gravity thing. < 1275383084 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275383218 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1275383723 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1275383777 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should sleep now
< 1275383828 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell log 8/log 10 < 1275383834 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.9030899869919434 < 1275384060 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to get up at an unknown time, so I should NOT still be up
< 1275384071 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Despite how much good I may be doing for LambdaMOO < 1275384413 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eeep, there's a petition to shut down LambdaMOO < 1275384499 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set up a counterpetition. < 1275384510 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Threaten those who sign it. < 1275384515 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do whatever it takes. < 1275384595 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are currently no signers < 1275384749 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then intimidate the person who started it!! < 1275384762 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Intimidate *someone*, dammit. < 1275384918 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to be from 1999 or so < 1275385155 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I think we need to be proactive and bomb the hell out of the houses of everyone who signed #100000" < 1275385404 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell log 10 < 1275385405 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.302585092994046 < 1275385410 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell log E < 1275385424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell log (exp 1) < 1275385425 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.0 < 1275385427 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foh right < 1275385435 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks :) < 1275385443 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please to be removing your dumb ballot to free quota for my Love Dungeon with Clapper(r) activated nipple electrodes. < 1275385448 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell pi -- on the other hand < 1275385450 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.141592653589793 < 1275386062 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to be asleep
< 1275386433 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1275386478 0 :relet1!~hirtho@159.162.68.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275386544 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275386662 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275387401 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1275387407 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell pi - 0.141592653589793 < 1275387408 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.0 < 1275387430 0 :relet1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1275387591 0 :MigoMipo!~John@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275388059 0 :relet!~hirtho@159.162.68.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1275388596 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1275389356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aargh... an increment of 1 on the rotation sensor is equal to 65/216 degrees. < 1275389444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and one whole rotation of the turn table is equal to 111.66666... on the rotation sensor. Since it gives integers this will be a pain to handle. < 1275389467 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the controller for this is an embedded thing, so it is infeasible to handle non-integers anyway < 1275389486 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275389801 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. It isn't even milliradians? < 1275389831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, actually it is 16 / whole rotation of rotation sensor < 1275389846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, but I was measuring wrt the turn table < 1275389850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which this thing is connected to < 1275389894 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least one tank had main turret rotation scale in milliradians... < 1275389902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, in case you missed it, I'm building a panoramic head for my camera (to avoid parallax). In lego that is. < 1275389916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and well you selections are somewhat limited when it comes to gear ratio there < 1275389940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, and yeah this is quite far from a tank :P < 1275390012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, anyway you don't want too many gears in this case, since lego has a bit of "slack", which means that if the direction is reversed it will take a bit for it to propagate back to the rotation sensor if you have a lot of gears in between... < 1275390134 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The length of 1 milliradian circular arc at 1km is 1m... Hmm... If one rotation of table were amplified to be 15 rotations of sensor, then it would give 1675 units per table turn? < 1275390158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, what? < 1275390175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah requires fitting gears. < 1275390262 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If one takes circular arc that has length one thoursandth of circle radius, then from center, it appears in angle of 1 milliradian. :-) < 1275390300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is tricky here. Also space around the turn table is at a premium, due to much reinforcement to be able to carry the load of a camera without bending or such. Sure it wouldn't mechanically break with some of that removed, but it would be unusable for the task due to not being level... < 1275390329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have to use counter weights anyway < 1275390368 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :90 degree angles tend to be weak point. Adding short 45 degree support beams improves things a lot. < 1275390404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you mean at the base? it has enough area to not be able to tip over even at extreme imbalance. < 1275390448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on top of the turn table the load will either be near the center or far out in a given direction < 1275390475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(depends on adjustment, the whole thing can be adjusted for different lenses, since the no-parallax point will differ < 1275390482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1275390565 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. if one has two hollow cubes built from 20 beams, the beam joints will be the weak spot. But adding 44 short support beams connecting each two adjacent beams will improve strength greatly. < 1275390611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, are you talking about something completely different from me? As this seems to not apply here at all. < 1275390623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, lego < 1275390643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait you don't know the design < 1275390644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1275390655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should take a photo, not that it is completely finished yet < 1275390677 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the point where axis connects to table top need reinforcement? < 1275390697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, axis as in turn table center? < 1275390704 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1275390725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes it is quite reinforced. Thankfully there are no "active" things to route through there < 1275390753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the base is just a sturdy base, all the motors and such is in the turning bit above < 1275390805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? 1) because the battery box would be an excellent counter weight to the camera 2) because this will need to rotate 360° and I don't want a twisted cable in the middle < 1275390809 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How I would reinforce table (but I haven't tried to do this): Few beams plus 45 deg support beams connecting it to axis. < 1275390826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, let me find a picture of the lego turn table used as the core of it < 1275390856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh peeron has it as two parts < 1275390864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also peeron is loading very slowly today < 1275390914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, http://media.peeron.com/ldraw/images/47/2856.png and http://media.peeron.com/ldraw/images/47/2855.png < 1275390927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are in reality joined together quite well < 1275390942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never been able to take them apart < 1275390948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(they came in the box as one part) < 1275390973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, there are some "rests" for the above structure further out from this base, where some wheels can rest < 1275390978 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275390981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the center doesn't take the whole load < 1275391000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in my design that is) < 1275391029 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, wheels... That's one way to reinforce it. < 1275391084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, well, that spreads the load further out, making it more stable, since there is some slack in the joint between those parts so it will not stay completely level if you put a load at a beam attached out from the top of it < 1275391127 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW: Merry-go-round with magnetic bearings might be quite wild ("unsafe"). :-) < 1275391130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, it does however not break without those. So for purely mechanical reasons that turn table is enough < 1275391140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, heh? < 1275391212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, anyway, I took a pause from building this while trying to figure out how to best program it. The plan is to figure out how long to wait between rotating and taking shots with the camera by using a lego light sensor aimed at the memory card status led < 1275391213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1275391218 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if one wants something truly insane, use electromagnetic levitation with capability to have rotating EM wave. < 1275391251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, don't forget to put up a warning sign about "do not take any pacemakers or harddrives on this ride" < 1275391491 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because rotating EM wave will make the top plate rotate. And it doesn't take that great speed to need great force to avoid falling off. 0.5 revolutions per second at 5m would need 5g... < 1275391601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1275391608 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To avoid it being too crazy, rotating EM wave would only be usable to cancel out most of remaining friction and air resistance... < 1275391626 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275391640 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are we talking about rotating EM waves? < 1275391643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, would humans survive this speed anyway? < 1275391649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I have no clue < 1275391671 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With that kind of acceleration, they would fly off... < 1275391703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, strapped in? That is common on fast amusement rides < 1275391723 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Merry-go-round? Those aren't usually strapped... < 1275391738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, true but your one would require it < 1275391770 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those numbers were just example. Obiviously 5G is far too extreme. < 1275391789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1275391825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, so how did we get from lego technic turn tables to merry-go-round with rotating EM waves? < 1275391829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still haven't figured out < 1275391842 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both turn? :-> < 1275391865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm okay < 1275391979 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those aren't the only "turned to 11" versions of common playground objects... Large teflon-coated slides anyone? :-> :-> < 1275392015 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(preferably painted white if possible without compromising slipperyness). :-> < 1275392027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, why white < 1275392062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only reason I can think of is heat. And that would need extreme speeds < 1275392074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus I'm not sure it applies to sliding on ground < 1275392096 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solar heating. Metal slides tend to really heat up in sunshine. < 1275392109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is however the reason why concorde were mostly white (excluding logo, which was restricted in size due to heat reasons) < 1275392207 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Swing with solid support rods axled to top beam... :-) < 1275392252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, uh uh < 1275392267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you still won't get the required speed manually < 1275392273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would need a powered swing < 1275392319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would require something other than chain for suspending the swing from the beam < 1275392324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something solid < 1275392344 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Resonant pumping can bulid great amplitudes. Normally chain bending restricts it. < 1275392381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, so manual start and then powered rotation of the chain mount? < 1275392398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since without a decent initial speed it would just spool up the chain in that case < 1275392401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a which or such < 1275392404 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if powered rotation is even necressary there. < 1275392424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, you couldn't get it to rotate 360° otherwise < 1275392438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is the goal right? To turn it into a centrifuge < 1275392453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I suspect you would need a counter weight < 1275392463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah, solid suspension is probably required < 1275392543 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is maximum swing angle of ordinary swing? Something like 150 degrees? < 1275392563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, I have no idea < 1275392597 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if any branches of mathematics have ever been proven inconsistent.
< 1275392611 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Answers on a postcard) < 1275392646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1275392648 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how large amplitude one can archive with solid-beam swing might depend on bearings. Good bearings allow larger amplitudes (assuming pumping beyond +-90 degrees is not possible. < 1275392657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, oh, read it as "comics on a postcard" somehow < 1275392663 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*might allow < 1275392738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, with solid beams you can use an external engine anyway < 1275392749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strapping yourself in is recommended for safety reasons < 1275392753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a back rest too < 1275392834 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back is surpisingly weak. I almost once really hurt my back when rollerskating by doing too sharp turn... < 1275392949 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once saw large swing (meant for lots of people at once) that reportedly rotate 360 degrees... < 1275393002 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*could rotate < 1275393056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1275393059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1275393101 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some place near where I live... < 1275393183 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was built of wood... < 1275393260 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@ix.ceid.upatras.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1275393416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, huh. Any photo? < 1275393424 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275393636 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope... < 1275393845 0 :Zuu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275395503 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275395661 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1275395681 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275396025 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1275396033 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275397042 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275397104 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275397849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, oh btw, that microcontroller I'm using have: http://sprunge.us/GJNG < 1275397862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm should test float and double < 1275397867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be emulated anyway < 1275398047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, sizeof(float) == sizeof(double) == 4 < 1275398597 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1275398614 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275399261 0 :FireFly!~firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1275399261 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1275399262 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1275400120 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275400144 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275400303 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1275402440 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/o/ < 1275402441 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         | < 1275402441 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :        /`\ < 1275402737 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-14-136.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275403226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1275403236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a variant of the 4 colour problem here < 1275403247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I'm not sure what the answer is to < 1275403250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically: < 1275403374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assume you have a perfectly flat plane of finite size, you want to radio coverage everywhere, that is fill the plane with circles of a given size such that every point is in at least one circle. Overlap is allowed but should be minimised. No two overlapping circles must have the same colours (that is, different frequencies so you don't get interference). How many colours would you need? < 1275403415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole plane would be rectangular < 1275403463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe calling it a variant is stretching things a bit though < 1275403473 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1275403798 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like two separate problems to me < 1275403818 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First solve the coverage issue and then colour the resulting graph < 1275403846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1275403861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, wonder what sort of placing would give minimal overlap < 1275403923 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's no such thing as a "4 colour problem": there's a 4 colour theorem, and then there's a problem called graph colouring) < 1275403937 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or a class of problems, I guess) < 1275403959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, and then, is the "minmal area with any overlap" solution also the one with least colours... < 1275403981 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :minimal overlap = zero, or the general case allowing some overlap? < 1275403998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :relet, see the question above. Minimal overlap would not be zero here < 1275404007 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't tile the plane with circles afaik < 1275404016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not without getting some space in between < 1275404030 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, sorry. I misthought that as minimal non-covered area < 1275404089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, one could imagine the solution with least area where there is any overlap is one where you have some points with n circles overlapping, but there is another solution where the total area with any overlap is more but there are at most n-1 different circles overlapping in one point < 1275404091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you see what I mean < 1275404094 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Depends on the constraints on the circle size < 1275404113 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If we can make one huge circle covering the whole thing, that's obviously optimal as far as colours go < 1275404115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well all circles have to have the same size, wasn't that given ? < 1275404126 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure < 1275404133 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup. you can either go for optimal packing, and add smaller circles inbetween, or pessimal packing and add larger circles. < 1275404133 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So hmm < 1275404143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1275404157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb, need to help person with high fever... :( < 1275404159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll get a lot of overlap if you can't even reduce the circle size, I think < 1275404186 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275404187 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless your circle size is such that the circles degenerate into points: no overlap and 2-colourable) < 1275404214 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or wait, only overlaps must have the same colours, so 1-colourable < 1275404489 0 :myndzi\!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275404540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1275404561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1275404562 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1275404663 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275404708 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise isn't around, is he? < 1275404722 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275404748 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-14-136.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275404779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"setting bit 2 (mask interrupts) to 1 will mask all interrupts except NMI". Seems like a quite reasonable statement eh? < 1275404783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now expand NMI < 1275404797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"setting bit 2 (mask interrupts) to 1 will mask all interrupts except non-maskable interrupts" < 1275404801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that seems slightly silly < 1275404888 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275404889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nice alternative to having a reserved bit in your flags register: "Bit 6—User Bit (U): This bit can be written and read by software (using the LDC, STC, ANDC, < 1275404889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ORC, and XORC instructions)." < 1275404903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wtf at that linebreak, meh) < 1275404930 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275405118 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1275407136 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275407957 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a satellite, i'm in an orbit all the way around you < 1275408278 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275408388 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275408561 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1275410147 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275410546 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1275410550 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! < 1275410569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHANTOM_HOOVER < 1275410580 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THERE'S NO NEED TO SHOUT! < 1275410603 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you even pronounce "oerjan"? < 1275410636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ___ _ ___ < 1275410636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : / _ \| |__|__ \ < 1275410636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| | | | '_ \ / / < 1275410636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |_| | | | |_| < 1275410636 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : \___/|_| |_(_) < 1275410668 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, nice kerning. < 1275410681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :figlet is cool < 1275410730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan is pronounced like ørjan, naturally < 1275410759 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how is that pronounced? < 1275410771 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the way it is written >:) < 1275410773 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1275410786 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...weird < 1275410796 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ircii looked completely different last time I used it < 1275410841 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you tried turning it off and on again? < 1275410957 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1275410962 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's weird actually ircii wasn't installed < 1275410963 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology < 1275410967 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm just crazy and hallucinated using it < 1275411035 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... it was irssi maybe? < 1275411037 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1275411039 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1275411078 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: [øɾjɑn] or thereabouts I guess < 1275411084 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, I didn't get a chance to ask him if he was sure that it was plugged in. < 1275411129 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: i _think_ the ø should be an oe ligature, according to that article < 1275411185 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I was looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language#Vowels < 1275411219 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i noticed they disagreed < 1275411239 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if that's what the short one is to be, then presumably yes < 1275411243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#Vowels doesn't distinguish short and long < 1275411245 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1275411251 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't mention œ at all < 1275411266 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is why I didn't look into it any further :-P < 1275411281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, I guess /œɾjɑn/ is closer to the mark < 1275411523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Phantom_Hoover wonders if any branches of mathematics have ever been proven inconsistent. < 1275411577 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do recall an anecdote about someone doing his thesis or something on a complicated subject, and that at the defense or something someone pointed out that the only example of his structure was the empty set (or something) < 1275411585 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tell my memory is vague there :D < 1275411635 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course any subject that depends on an unproven hypothesis could face the same problem < 1275411677 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I mean something like the axioms being inconsistent. < 1275411691 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i also recall someone once proved a theorem by first giving a proof assuming the riemann hypothesis (i think) was true, and then a proof assuming it was false < 1275411711 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like coming up with a proof that 1=0. < 1275411750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you know there is a theory of odd perfect numbers - but no one has ever found an actual example or proved they don't exist... < 1275411793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh, you could say naive set theory is such a branch < 1275411804 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :russell proved it inconsistent with his paradox < 1275411811 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, indeed. < 1275411846 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1275411852 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, is logic an axiomatic system? < 1275411868 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting question < 1275411888 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need at least one inference rule < 1275411908 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275411911 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1275411913 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...there we go. < 1275411918 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this client is superior < 1275411925 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure it's plugged in? < 1275411926 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you can do the rest with axiom _schemas_, i think. < 1275411942 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Changing host < 1275411942 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1275411945 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1275411950 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(an infinite set of patterns that are all axioms) < 1275411981 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION defines a logical system that has an infinite number of axioms.
< 1275411998 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um wait < 1275412015 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the set of patterns is finite of course, but they describe an infinite set of axioms, is what i mean < 1275412033 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr... I'm busy defining an infinite set of axioms. < 1275412061 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explicitly, of course. < 1275412065 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Aren't they basically fancy axioms? < 1275412071 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The patterns. < 1275412099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it depends on how you define an axiom < 1275412112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not single propositions of the actual logic < 1275412181 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... okay, so my axioms are going to be enumerated < 1275412183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they contain meta-variables. that's sort of the point really, when you go this deep in defining logic you reach a point where you cannot escape having the _meta-theory_ being more complicated than the actual theory you are describing... < 1275412192 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the odd ones disprove Godel's incompleteness theorem < 1275412203 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the even ones determine if an aribtrary program halts. < 1275412221 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do the odd ones do that? < 1275412229 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by being axioms, duh. < 1275412258 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they all state that "Gödel's incompleteness theorems are false"? < 1275412260 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like asking how equality works. < 1275412271 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no, not explicitly < 1275412275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: btw godel's incompleteness theorem requires your axioms to be recursively enumerable iirc < 1275412287 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but each one achieves that . < 1275412298 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which probably thwarts your project in principle < 1275412312 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well no... < 1275412327 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones divisble by 5 disprove that part of GIT < 1275412342 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in doing so... they refer to all the axioms divisble by 5 < 1275412344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically your theory is inconsistent. got it ;) < 1275412372 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom 1: Axiom 2 is false. Axiom 2: Axiom 1 is true. < 1275412388 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps Axiom 2: Axiom 1 is false. < 1275412402 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that one. < 1275412402 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either. < 1275412428 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for axiom 2 to be false in the first example... axiom 1 would have to be false < 1275412428 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait, the second is consistentish. < 1275412464 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait... no that works. < 1275412476 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...fuck, I don't know. < 1275412541 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom 0: your mom is crazy in bed Axiom N: Axiom N-1 is true < 1275412559 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the first system, Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2 < 1275412572 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom 2 → ¬Axiom 1 < 1275412593 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2 → Axiom 1. < 1275412597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Assume you have a perfectly flat plane of finite size, you want to radio coverage everywhere, that is fill the plane with circles of a given size such that every point is in at least one circle. Overlap is allowed but should be minimised. No two overlapping circles must have the same colours (that is, different frequencies so you don't get interference). How many colours would you need? < 1275412631 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: all of them. < 1275412639 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the second, Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 2 < 1275412642 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i _think_ minimal overlap may be a hexagonal pattern, isn't that the equivalent to kepler's theorem in two dimensions < 1275412653 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom 2 → Axiom 1 < 1275412666 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axiom 1 → ¬Axiom 1 < 1275412668 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED. < 1275412686 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first is quasi-consistent, the second is inconsistent. < 1275412702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think that requires exactly 4 colors < 1275412773 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 is clearly enough since this is planar < 1275412812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a b < 1275412818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1275412820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1275412823 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a b < 1275412825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c d < 1275412832 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : e < 1275412848 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait < 1275412863 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a matter of finding a tile, isn't it? < 1275412865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps 3 is enough < 1275412921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well hexagonal is the densest _packing_, i'm pretty sure, so it probably also gives least overlap (just enlarge the circles of the packing until they cover all) < 1275412938 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean for the colouring. < 1275412940 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only neighbors would overlap < 1275412969 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Find a tile with which you can cover the plane without conflict. < 1275413008 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see what you mean, although the coloring would probably be periodic and so have something like a tiling associated < 1275413029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1275413036 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a b c a b c a b c < 1275413044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c a b c a b c a b < 1275413048 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 is enough < 1275413051 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1275413082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 3 is enough for a hexagonal pattern < 1275413086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm okay < 1275413136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, do you then consider the circles to include the edge or not? < 1275413148 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i don't think that matters < 1275413153 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1275413164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I would consider it an open set < 1275413170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case < 1275413194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it matters only if the radius needs to reach to the center of neighbors. is it that large? < 1275413214 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the edge? no it is of course infinitely thin or something < 1275413233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in the difference between [0,n] and [0,n) < 1275413236 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it doesn't reach to the center of neighbors, then it cannot overlap anything other than the neighbors < 1275413256 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh edge... i'm ignoring your finite area, this covers the whole plane < 1275413315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, do two circles meet in a point anywhere? as in edges touching each other and no overlap < 1275413334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then that difference for the circle would matter, wouldn't it? < 1275413350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, if you see what I mean? < 1275413380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no i don't think so < 1275413395 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1275413396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "don't think you see what I mean"? < 1275413397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a b < 1275413398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c < 1275413424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then a b and c circles would intersect in a common point, but each pair of circles would overlap < 1275413432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the thing was if there was some point that was only covered by the edges of two circles, and no overlap at all. < 1275413440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/thing/question/ < 1275413464 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's an open set then there are points not covered by oerjan's packing. < 1275413469 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh right, the common point would be that < 1275413478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well that is an issue I think < 1275413490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, thanks for understanding what I meant :) < 1275413496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i suspect you cannot get a minimum coverage without there being such points < 1275413507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how? < 1275413510 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there aren't such points you can probably shrink some circle < 1275413532 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there is no truly minimal solution < 1275413546 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*because if there < 1275413552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, all circles were to have the same size. As was implied by "circles of a given size" < 1275413558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same given size obviously < 1275413562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1275413567 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can get arbitrarily close to optimum packing. < 1275413576 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With circles the same size. < 1275413577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah, good enough I guess < 1275413580 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well still. you can probably shrink _all_ circles by an epsilon. < 1275413588 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm I wonder how tree-based programming would work. < 1275413593 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lisp? < 1275413597 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, similar semantics to stackbased but with trees. < 1275413618 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, with trees as the primary data structures. < 1275413620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, they are all unit circles. But shrinking them would just scale the entire thing < 1275413641 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, Lisp is sort of that, due to the structure of the lists. < 1275413649 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@79.103.6.164.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1275413650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and possibly add some more on the edges of the finite plane < 1275413652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well yeah. hm i guess this actually _would_ depend on your finite area, come to think of it < 1275413664 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably have an operation that's something like "take the current root tree, copy it, and push onto tree" or something < 1275413672 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be kind of crazy though. < 1275413673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the finite area determines how tightly things fit < 1275413675 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or.. pointless. < 1275413677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well, I don't consider overshooting this area to be an issue < 1275413694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I didn't have that in mind as an issue < 1275413704 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, maybe not pointless. If you didn't copy and simply references you could get circular behavior. < 1275413713 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*referenced < 1275413727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: anyway i was ignoring the finiteness because it seemed like a finite area might complicate the pattern of circles (and i'm too lazy for that ;D) < 1275413777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1275413817 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, it depends entirely on the shape of the area. < 1275413817 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firall x. 1 < 1275413822 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*forall < 1275413825 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep. right? < 1275413845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: that's essentially graph/tree rewriting, it's a well-known strategy for implementing functional languages < 1275413937 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...are you sure it's similar. I mean like, how Glass is stack-based, but you "push" and "pop" to a tree instead. < 1275413952 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with each operation, sequentially. < 1275413984 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: well it's complicated than just pushing and popping i guess < 1275414001 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: also a stack of trees is equivalent to a single tree, in a sense < 1275414008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well it was given as rectangular in my original question < 1275414035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, < 1275414069 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then it depends on the ratio of the range of the transmitters to the edges, among other things. < 1275414108 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yep, but extending outside the finite area was not considered a problem. Nor overlap outside of the area < 1275414138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I did not have any specific ratios in mind originally < 1275414152 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually i don't think two circles can overlap outside without overlapping inside, assuming their centers are inside < 1275414166 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they can't. < 1275414177 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless the area is concave. < 1275414207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lessons learned: it is impossible to state any problem involving anything finite with enough detail. Where enough detail is defined as "a mathematician can't think of another question to ask to clarify the problem" < 1275414212 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it follows from convexity and the midpoint between the centers always being in the overlap area if there is any < 1275414216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1275414247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sure but the overlap area outside would not be counted towards the total < 1275414263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh you mean for minimizing, right < 1275414269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, exactly < 1275414293 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275414330 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GAH < 1275414336 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE6 IT STILL LIVES < 1275414345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: actually when i think about it there isn't really any reason to minimize the overlap area. in fact you would want to maximize it in practise, under the coloring restriction < 1275414366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, now replace the rectangle with an area defined as the coastline of norway on one side, then a line modified by a sine wave on the other. Have fun ;P < 1275414371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(better coverage if there is a failure with a sender) < 1275414389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, sure, but senders cost money < 1275414410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oh well right, perhaps minimizing the _number_ of senders rather than area < 1275414417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, do you know how many watt a typical radio transmitter is rated for? < 1275414425 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no f* idea < 1275414437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iirc 60000 W was the max in Sweden < 1275414453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for Sveriges Radio obviously, not for "local to the city" stations ;P < 1275414504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so yeah, it costs quite a bit with senders. Even excluding the cost for the "hardware" < 1275414517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the electricity bill must be fantastic... < 1275414541 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise isn't around, is he? < 1275414544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, fantastic is wrong word, horrible maybe < 1275414547 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe tomorrow, i think he said < 1275414611 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hm the electricity bill alone would scale with area up to the maximum, wouldn't it < 1275414633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1275414676 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess transmission in the atmosphere is not trivial < 1275414721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing, does it count as spreading in two or three dimensions < 1275414734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(beyond a certain distance) < 1275414746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, of course this does not apply as easily to "real life" < 1275414775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what with the issues you mentioned. Plus mountains and tall buildings and so on < 1275414790 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hmmm, I think I have a good idea for an tree-based esolang. < 1275414797 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with nifty control flow structures. < 1275414806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and local heat variations in the atmosphere would mess things up as well I suspect. < 1275414819 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the file system embedded in the tree structure. :) < 1275414820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if you can get radio mirages. but that would be awesoem < 1275414823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome* < 1275414832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just completely awesome < 1275414842 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically a graph, but mostly a tree. < 1275414856 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1275414953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, "huh" about what? < 1275414997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :radio mirages < 1275415005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1275415016 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I never heard of it though. Sadly < 1275415019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be awesome indeed < 1275415026 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stallman is a very strange man < 1275415028 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1275415050 0 :comex!comex@c-98-210-154-193.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275415131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Reboot < 1275415173 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I get the sense that my computer is bragging. < 1275415208 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if Stallman smokes herb. < 1275415224 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Oh, look, I ran 1.3 million CPU cycles in a millisecond, what have you done lately?" < 1275415465 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1275415485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it said that? < 1275415497 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in as many words. < 1275415510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1275415539 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275415556 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I may make it do that. < 1275415606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, wait, your computer is only 1.3 GHz? < 1275415621 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was doing other stuff. < 1275415631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "Oh, look, I ran 1.3 million CPU cycles in a millisecond, what have you done lately?" < 1275415638 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just the output from a time on some Lisp code. < 1275415640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as I can tell that gives you 1.3 GHz < 1275415650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you mean your numbers were made up? < 1275415659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dude, ATM my computer is running at *500 MHz*. < 1275415670 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1275415673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm slow for cpufreq < 1275415674 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*800*. < 1275415679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah more reasonable < 1275415687 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I mean I timed some Lisp code, it took 1 ms and 1.3 gigacycles. < 1275415704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, this is because my clock rate is turned way down due to low demand. :) < 1275415708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, how did you get the 1.3 gigacycles number? < 1275415719 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what the TIME function printed. < 1275415737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, is that some byte code interpreter cycle or CPU cycles? < 1275415754 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it says "processor cycles". < 1275415760 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence I assume CPU. < 1275415769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yeah multitasking might be messing things up < 1275415770 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, SBCL compiles to native code. < 1275415784 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So bytecode is implausible. < 1275415828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I can't think of any obvious way to measure cycle count on x86. At least not one that would be feasible implementing outside a program that specifically does that < 1275415854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with the varying delay on instructions, out of order, super scalar. < 1275415856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1275415861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and cache effects < 1275415863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't forget that < 1275415865 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how it measures it. < 1275415872 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(describe 'time) < 1275415882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TIME names a macro: < 1275415882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Lambda-list: (FORM) < 1275415882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Documentation: < 1275415882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Execute FORM and print timing information on *TRACE-OUTPUT*. < 1275415882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1275415882 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : On some hardware platforms estimated processor cycle counts are < 1275415884 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : included in this output; this number is slightly inflated, since it < 1275415886 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : includes the pipeline involved in reading the cycle counter -- < 1275415888 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : executing (TIME NIL) a few times will give you an idea of the < 1275415890 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : overhead, and its variance. The cycle counters are also per processor, < 1275415892 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : not per thread: if multiple threads are running on the same processor, < 1275415894 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the reported counts will include cycles taken up by all threads < 1275415896 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : running on the processor where TIME was executed. Furthermore, if the < 1275415896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1275415896 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha... I didn't know Google suggested Recursion when you type Recursion into it. < 1275415898 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : operating system migrates the thread to another processor between < 1275415900 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : reads of the cycle counter, the results will be completely bogus. < 1275415902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Finally, the counter is cycle counter, incremented by the hardware < 1275415904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, no need to paste it all < 1275415906 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : even when the process is halted -- which is to say that cycles pass < 1275415908 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : normally during operations like SLEEP. < 1275415910 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Source file: SYS:SRC;CODE;TIME.LISP < 1275415913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1275415915 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. < 1275415978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm not sure how you read cycle count on x86 < 1275415987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it is possible < 1275416008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh the TSC < 1275416086 0 :tombom!~tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1275416163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and yeah if it uses the TSC it would include cycles spent by other CPUs as well < 1275416167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what did the program do btw? < 1275416184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this is "hello world" I would say that you have a LOT of overhead ;P < 1275416188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it moved between cpus < 1275416203 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a 3-layer feed-forward neural network. < 1275416240 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello world takes 44,360 cycles. < 1275416268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite a lot. I wonder how many a C hello world would take, would have no gc overhead and such < 1275416274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still some IO overhead < 1275416280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what about 2+2 ;P < 1275416307 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1480 cycles. < 1275416315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, there's stdio to go through and such. < 1275416336 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, (time nil) takes 1720 cycles, so it's inaccurate for small values. < 1275416358 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2+2 is therefore incredibly quick. < 1275416359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, as I said yes < 1275416365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : still some IO overhead < 1275416384 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275416384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Should be constant-folded, really. < 1275416386 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did you ping me? < 1275416398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, because I did /ping p and got you instead of pikhq < 1275416424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : OTOH, (time nil) takes 1720 cycles, so it's inaccurate for small values. <-- sure that is inaccurate? < 1275416443 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 2+2? Like I said, it could take a cycle and it would report a couple of thousand cycles. < 1275416451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, timing (+ 2 2) on my system gave me 3934 cycles < 1275416457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sempron 3300+ < 1275416464 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What implementation? < 1275416470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, sbcl REPL < 1275416491 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And nil isn't evaluated at all, so it's almost certainly inaccurate. < 1275416506 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(time nil): < 1275416507 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is another channel on here that was here yesterday, because they needed a new IRC server I suggested Freenode. It is #mzx for the mainstream MegaZeux. I recommend the forked MegaZeux, which has no official IRC channel, however. (But you can discuss the forked MegaZeux on that channel however, don't too much) < 1275416508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 3,611 processor cycles < 1275416529 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I write an accounting software what should I called it? < 1275416550 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the description for time says outright that there's an overhead approximately that of (time nil) < 1275416609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"RunProgram: Start execution of the program downloaded. A downloaded program can only be started if it contains the text "Do you byte, when I knock?", otherwise the executive refuse to run the program downloaded." <-- some aspects of the RCX ROM are bloody strange < 1275416761 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275416795 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275417024 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... I wonder if I could be a leet haxor < 1275417036 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION writes naive C code and tries to inject code via stack overflow.
< 1275417259 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is happy
< 1275417314 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The neural network code works for AND and OR. < 1275417318 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now to try XOR. < 1275417410 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I can't be bothered. < 1275417423 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manually altering weights is unspeakably painful. < 1275417671 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you doing? < 1275418351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :weighing altered manuals < 1275418649 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple: Wasting time messing with neural nets. < 1275418727 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1275418742 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And for XOR I have to change the weights pretty much by hand, which takes too much typing. < 1275418961 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1275419206 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom! < 1275419424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : weighing altered manuals <-- interesting, why? < 1275419455 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a facetious answer to pineapple's question to me. < 1275419480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah. I imagine the extra weight from some added ink could be detected ;P < 1275419505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would take an incredibly sensitive scale < 1275419519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and require that the unaltered manuals had a very precise weight < 1275419521 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A fascinating method for detecting cheats, but ultimately impractical. < 1275419524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/scale/scales/ < 1275419550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, exactly. But this is #esoteric, things doesn't have to be practical! < 1275419588 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello what < 1275419599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom, who's there? < 1275419666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/gdMY < 1275419743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what does it do? < 1275419757 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imperative → imperative via functional seems an odd choice. < 1275419757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generate x86 asm I figured out < 1275419766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah probably bf < 1275419769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so BF compiler then < 1275419772 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1275419780 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but it's still quite nice. < 1275419790 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've found Haskell makes for delicious compilers. < 1275419791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, nothing new. The best one before esotope-bfc was written in haskell < 1275419800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiled to C, not asm of course < 1275419812 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you meant Phantom_Hoover there. < 1275419821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. I'm aware of said compiler. < 1275419821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, me? no < 1275419823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1275419823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1275419826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I did < 1275419827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1275419833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is confused
< 1275419833 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm currently generating smaller output than esotope-bfc. < 1275419838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right I meant Phantom_Hoover < 1275419853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how do you compare < 1275419865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, since esotope generates C code < 1275419867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you generate asm < 1275419868 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :xPhantom_Hoover < 1275419875 0 :xPhantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: There you go. < 1275419876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, gcc produces bloated binaries < 1275419881 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Final binary, as generated with gcc -Os < 1275419884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xPhantom_Hoover, hah ;P < 1275419890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've also compared with clang -Os < 1275419896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, tcc? < 1275419903 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not tried that. < 1275419918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't work well with my absurdly tiny libc. < 1275419927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I want to be fair, okay?) < 1275419927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway, I would say that the comparison is unfair due to the different target languages < 1275419943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you linked that libc statically? < 1275419952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not link both dynamically < 1275419966 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: *Dynamic linking makes for larger binaries*. < 1275419975 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, said libc literally included wrappers for system calls. < 1275419989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And was *concattenated* with the file. < 1275420000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I have seen cases of static linking being larger < 1275420005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that was against boost though iirc < 1275420009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something of similar size < 1275420009 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but not in this case. < 1275420020 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where you only need read, write, and exit. < 1275420051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, anyway, the comparison is not fair IMO < 1275420062 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still currently about an order of magnitude slower than esotope-bfc, output-wise. < 1275420062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, you should compare speed < 1275420069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1275420077 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This has a lot to do with my lack of constant folding and loop handling. < 1275420249 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1275420400 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1275427871 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1275427871 0 :clog!nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1275428052 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clog! < 1275428069 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, does this mean that the prior conversation was unlogged? < 1275428106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably yes < 1275428119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb clog < 1275428259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, presumably you have your own local logs however < 1275428290 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Probably. < 1275428301 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, no one will ever know about our terrorist plans < 1275428308 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...shit < 1275428368 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I have an overwhelming urge to write "Ørjan the headless esolang runner". < 1275428388 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what < 1275428440 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not headless. otoh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_the_Headless_Chicken < 1275428441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Warren Zevon song. < 1275428549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Roland is a Norwegian who becomes embroiled in the Congo Crisis of the late 1960s. He earns a reputation as the greatest Thompson gunner, a reputation that attracts the attention of the CIA." < 1275428583 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See! < 1275428646 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I never knew that he was Norwegian. < 1275428646 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how very unrealistic. oh wait http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_French_and_Tjostolv_Moland < 1275428653 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@79.103.6.164.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1275428656 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :myndzi < 1275428667 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o\ < 1275428668 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         | < 1275428668 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         >\ < 1275428698 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1275428713 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/o\ < 1275428713 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         | < 1275428713 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         |\ < 1275428719 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275428720 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will never tire of it. < 1275428728 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :,_o__, ,__o_, ,_o__, < 1275428729 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  |       |     | < 1275428729 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /`\     /|    /< < 1275428763 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :response varies by channel, lol < 1275428769 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people ... tire of it very quickly :> < 1275428786 0 :Tritonio_GR1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1275428797 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't come up much in here, so it doesn't get too annoying. :P < 1275428819 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_o_ < 1275428819 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         | < 1275428819 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         |\ < 1275428831 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that ever going to be fixed? < 1275428916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fix what? < 1275428929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no because his client doesn't right-align nicks < 1275428939 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1275428949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi, it is rather annoying to people not using clients that do left ragged text < 1275428954 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :PH < 1275428961 0 :PH!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1275428972 0 :PH!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/o/ < 1275428987 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it has no hope of working for me, as I IRC in a proportional font < 1275428988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi, mine right aligns the nicks up to the separator, then left aligns the text to the separator on the other side < 1275428989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(shocking I know) < 1275428997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi, so it looks really bad from here < 1275428999 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heretic! < 1275429026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, okay, ehird. Nice try pretending to be ais523. But the game is over now. < 1275429032 0 :PH!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Phantom_Hoover < 1275429047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: why would you expect ehird but not me to do that? < 1275429072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, should be quite obvious. He is a font manic. < 1275429083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, obviously he'll have ignored me based on that inference and won't hear this < 1275429086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it's wrong < 1275429089 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is a bit of a typography nut. < 1275429096 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A *bit*? < 1275429097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1275429099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, nice try < 1275429116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also /nickserv help output must look horrible to you < 1275429123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it space align two columns < 1275429129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: In casual English usage, "a bit" can mean "quite exceptionally". Weird but true. < 1275429132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, there's enough spaces to see the columns < 1275429230 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this column is not big enough for the both of us < 1275429259 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275429264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't get the pun < 1275429273 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I get the reference but not the non-pun context of the sentence < 1275429290 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :am i not allowed to do absurdist humor now < 1275429303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are, it just needs to be slightly easier to get than that < 1275429316 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a reference. < 1275429319 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED. < 1275429321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it was easier to get it would be your mom < 1275429334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wouldn't look aligned however < 1275429387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hits Phantom_Hoover with a stunned seagull reference
< 1275429390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, get that one ;P < 1275429400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no helping him < 1275429402 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wasn't planning that punchline when he started the sentence
< 1275429406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know I used it before in this channel) < 1275429421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, which punchline? < 1275429447 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom < 1275429453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hah < 1275429669 0 :pikhq_!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275429804 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1275430686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, test of prototype lego panoramic head, using the mobile phone (a lot easier to mount than my "real" camera: http://omploader.org/vNGgydw (note: progressive jpeg) < 1275430691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes the image is quite grainy < 1275430717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the dual jpeg compression (once from camera, then once from converting the tiff hugin output) < 1275430720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :made it worse < 1275430935 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finally got XOR working!
< 1275431205 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION xors you
< 1275431251 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So much pain because of a logistic function... < 1275431287 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an object called *XORN*. < 1275431303 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not, however, walk through walls. < 1275431393 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1275431471 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_o_ < 1275431471 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         | < 1275431471 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :        /´\ < 1275431480 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_o_ _o_ _o_ < 1275431481 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :         |   |   | < 1275431481 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :        /`\  >\  >\ < 1275431523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah the last one was aligned for me < 1275431539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last one to the first one I mean in the line " _o_ _o_ _o_" < 1275431552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also myndzi's script is broken now < 1275431559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it didn't add anything under my line < 1275431563 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume you're on XChat too, then? < 1275431564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_o_ < 1275431564 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   | < 1275431564 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  /| < 1275431569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ERC < 1275431588 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anything Emacs can't do? < 1275431593 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hold on... < 1275431596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi, do you have very very short line length or why wasn't anything added to " the last one to the first one I mean in the line " _o_ _o_ _o_"" ? < 1275431620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, um yes. It can't synthesise for FPGAs < 1275431621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1275431649 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFAYK. < 1275431650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well it wrapped in irssi (80 chars) < 1275431652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, also it is event based and single threaded, doesn't do any sort of cooperative or preemptive multitasking < 1275431662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, 80 chars only? < 1275431669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only went like 2/3 of my screen < 1275431684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that is sort of the old standard < 1275431760 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1275431767 0 :Phantom_Hoover`!~user@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275431781 0 :Phantom_Hoover`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERC is UGLY. < 1275431786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes, But no one uses that any more < 1275431788 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1275431801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover`, ugly? Next time you will call twm ugly or something equally silly! < 1275431811 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TWM is cool. < 1275431824 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: TWM is only ugly by default. < 1275431824 0 :Phantom_Hoover`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially on a Mac. < 1275431834 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With some color changes it seems much less so. < 1275431836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover`, XD < 1275431841 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i like to have room for irc + another small window side by side < 1275431851 0 :Phantom_Hoover`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1275431853 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it's still only barely *usable*, it's still not bad for 30-year-old software. < 1275431855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, same, I have browser and irc client side by side < 1275431858 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i also like a big font < 1275431860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and terminal below both < 1275431865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1275431869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different terminal that is < 1275431873 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't run emacs in X mode < 1275431874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a small monitor < 1275431875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shudder* < 1275431876 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got my terminal open full-screen. < 1275431881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover`, anyway, I use heavily customised ERC settings < 1275431890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the default alignment is wtf < 1275431895 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is immaterial. < 1275431896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(um well i don't _like_ a small monitor as such, i have one, this is a laptop) < 1275431909 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of you people, I have forgotten what I was doing. < 1275431913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh well on my laptop I wouldn't use a setup like this < 1275431924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: something ERC < 1275431927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I want to get a dual head setup next time for my desktop < 1275431940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, was that a pun? < 1275431945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was very bad in that case < 1275432041 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1275432069 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the top Phantom_Hoover message on my screen < 1275432080 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so < 1275432112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : _o_ < 1275432112 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                    | < 1275432112 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :                   /| < 1275432115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the top one for me < 1275432117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was rather < 1275432124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now /`\ >\ >\ is the top one < 1275432135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and after I said this line, two lines below it) < 1275432144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ^ (3 lines below it now) < 1275432157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you people and your tiny fonts and huge monitors < 1275432159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you have a short scrollback < 1275432177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: my scrollback is fine, i'm talking about actual visible text < 1275432180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, tiny? it is "Dejavu Sans Mono 9" < 1275432196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well I meant visible scrollback without scrolling indeed ;P < 1275432237 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Courier New, 10 point it says < 1275432275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :46 rows and 80 columns < 1275432348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unsure about dimensions < 1275432802 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is scared of curve integrals.
< 1275432839 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOO! < 1275432854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION knew those once
< 1275432866 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what they even do. < 1275432896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for one thing you can calculate lengths of curves with them iirc < 1275432899 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shudders
< 1275433071 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am scared of all mathematical things I don't understand. < 1275433078 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just one of those things. < 1275433109 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: They're not *scary*, they're just more complex than your ordinary integral. < 1275433151 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As soon as you explain them I won't be scared. As it was with sigmas. < 1275433343 0 :Tritonio_GR1!~Tritonio@79.103.6.164.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1275433388 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275433879 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1275434128 0 :Tritonio_GR1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275434586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: They're not *scary*, they're just more complex than your ordinary integral. <-- s/more/even more/ < 1275434604 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1275434739 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: befunge with branch delay slots < 1275434744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a fingerprint perhaps < 1275434748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what do you think? < 1275434963 0 :maedhros777!~michael@c-76-118-245-128.hsd1.ma.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275434989 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What exactly is Turing-completeness? < 1275435061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, something that is equivalent to an Universal Turing Machine < 1275435063 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing-completeness means, in a very technical sense, being computationally equivalent to a Turing machine. < 1275435069 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. A Universal ... < 1275435074 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a Turing machine? < 1275435082 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a more practical sense, it means that it can compute anything that can be computed. < 1275435088 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet < 1275435101 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering because it was a category on the Wiki < 1275435107 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :universal, or all. the very definition of a universal turing machine is that it can itself emulate all the others < 1275435114 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you prove that something is Turing-complete? < 1275435142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: by emulating something already known to be TC with it < 1275435168 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But how do you know that the original thing is Turing-complete? < 1275435177 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think BF is used like that < 1275435183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(technically you should also prove that the something can be emulated by something TC) < 1275435190 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how do you prove that BF is Turing-complete? < 1275435205 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: the buck stops at turing machines < 1275435216 0 :Tritonio_GR!~Tritonio@79.103.6.164.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1275435216 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1275435218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the others must emulate those, directly or indirectly < 1275435225 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Wasn't there a proof that Turing machines can compute anything, though? < 1275435255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: that's the church-turing thesis and it isn't a proof, but a hypothesis < 1275435268 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, okay then. < 1275435301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyone tried to prove it? < 1275435305 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's hypothetically possible that there is something that's both computable and not computable on a UTM. < 1275435325 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the exact definition of a Turing machine, then? < 1275435389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but it would take a very unusual way of computing, that no one so far knows about < 1275435396 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1275435426 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: you have a tape, which is conceptually infinite, or at least can be extended as much as you like in at least one direction < 1275435453 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there instructions on the tape or something? < 1275435482 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, data, in some alphabet (which is more or less arbitrary - anything with at least 2 letters can emulate each other) < 1275435497 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1275435507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, don't forget the state of the heat < 1275435509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :head* < 1275435518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which moves over the tape iirc < 1275435523 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's a theoretical machine in which a command is given by an infinite number of intructions? < 1275435527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it the tape moving under the head < 1275435532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, no < 1275435533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: no < 1275435539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, it is data, not instructions < 1275435548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but oerjan is a slow typer < 1275435553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't remember the exact details < 1275435556 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sheesh* < 1275435568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well _one_ of us should shut up < 1275435570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1275435572 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does the machine work if all it contains is data? < 1275435589 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: that's the tape. the machine also has a head, which moves along the tape < 1275435595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, please wait for oerjan to finish typing that. It will take a bit < 1275435610 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Maquina.png < 1275435620 0 :Tritonio_GR1!~Tritonio@79.103.6.164.dsl.dyn.forthnet.gr JOIN :#esoteric < 1275435625 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that head is governed by instructions, in the form of a lookup table < 1275435653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: something like that < 1275435667 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the head has a state, from a finite set of states < 1275435682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Like this? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Maquina.png <-- what is that supposed to be? < 1275435689 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_machine#Formal_definition < 1275435700 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the lookup table says, given the state of the head, and the symbol on the tape in the current position: < 1275435701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is supposed to be a turing machine? < 1275435706 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep :) < 1275435724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, looked more like a sci-fi filing system gone spare < 1275435729 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=D < 1275435747 0 :Tritonio_GR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275435747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: well ok that's the mathematical definition, i'm going for a little more intuitive explanation here < 1275435750 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So where does the notion that a Turing machine can compute anything come from? < 1275435763 0 :ws!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ... < 1275435768 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing said so. < 1275435773 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Church also said so. < 1275435787 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did they have proof? < 1275435793 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, Church said that lambda calculus can. And lambda calculus and a UTM are equivalent) < 1275435799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, no, it is a conjecture, and no one found a counter example yet < 1275435806 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, then < 1275435817 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it would be pretty hard to disprove < 1275435821 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's probably right < 1275435822 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: Most people just use the UTM as the definition of computability. :) < 1275435851 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could a language not be Turing-complete? < 1275435854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: also it's not that it can compute _everything_, but that it can compute everything that we have a physically plausible way of computing at all < 1275435867 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: Trivially. < 1275435878 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could you give an example please? < 1275435882 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not having things like conditionals, having finite memory, < 1275435889 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: Brainfuck without loops. < 1275435892 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1275435899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: finite memory is a big hint < 1275435922 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't it be Turing-complete if it didn't have loops? < 1275435941 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because then it couldn't do anything conditionally ever. < 1275435958 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1275435977 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is necessary to implement a Turing machine. < 1275435988 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been wondering though, how are conditional expressions actually implemented? < 1275435994 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like in binary. < 1275435999 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what language? < 1275436008 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"binary" is not a language. < 1275436013 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C to assembly to binary, e.g. < 1275436026 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean like assembly or machine-dependent binary < 1275436027 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is in a formal sense, but that's beside the point. < 1275436038 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: So, C to $machine assembly to $machine binary < 1275436046 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1275436052 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the machine, but it's most *commonly* a conditional jump. < 1275436067 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: another way of showing it is through the famous halting problem. a turing machine cannot decide whether another turing machine (encoded as data) will halt, turing proved this. so if a turing machine _can_ decide whether your computational model halts, then your model cannot be turing complete, essentially < 1275436077 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, x86 has "je foo", where it jumps to foo if the previous comparison was true. < 1275436096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, also cmov < 1275436097 0 :Tritonio_GR1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1275436107 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah, yes, it does have that. < 1275436125 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, obviously, if you have no loops, your computational model always halts. < 1275436127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also various other conditional jumps < 1275436128 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-205-116.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1275436132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like jne iirc < 1275436134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what not < 1275436141 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That was just an example of a conditional jump. < 1275436145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1275436155 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86, being x86, is loaded with them. < 1275436159 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And everything else. < 1275436164 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for registers. < 1275436165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, not registers though < 1275436166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1275436171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you beat me to it < 1275436186 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would you, in general, prove that something is Turing-complete then? < 1275436199 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only I can see would be by conjecture < 1275436205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, by implementing something known to be turing-complete in it. < 1275436228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, no, turing completeness isn't a conjecture. What is a conjecture is that there is nothing beyond it that is computable < 1275436234 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: You demonstrate that it's computationally equivalent to something that is Turing-complete. < 1275436250 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's endlessly recursive -- how would you prove that the thing that you're basing the Turing-completeness off of to be Turing-complete? < 1275436253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, sure you can make up stuff beyond it, but it will be impossible to implement it, well that is the conjecture < 1275436266 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This can be done by *implementing* something that is Turing-complete and implementing in something that *is* Turing-complete. < 1275436282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, it all falls back on the UTM at the base. The conjecture is that the UTM is as far as you can go < 1275436291 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1275436295 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: in _principle_ you prove something turing-complete by showing that you can implement all turing machines with it < 1275436297 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: If nothing else, you can show equivalence with the UTM. < 1275436302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, so there is a base case the recursion of proving it equivalent to an UTM < 1275436315 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would it be shown that BF is computationally equivalent to the UTM? < 1275436318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is just that we don't know for sure if there is anything beyond it < 1275436319 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As Turing-completeness means "equivalent to a UTM" < 1275436321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in _practice_, you may use any of the other models that have already been proved to be able to do so < 1275436349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, implement an UTM in it. Or lambda calculus or anything else that wasn't proven TC by using brainfuck < 1275436361 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the UTM itself being one of the first such simpler models) < 1275436383 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wait what? < 1275436417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, elaborate < 1275436418 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The Universal Turing Machine is the Turing machine capable of implementing all other Turing machines. < 1275436426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, oh right < 1275436435 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1275436440 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: BF-without-IO is equivalent to P'' with a simple isomorphism. (I don't recall what this is, but that's irrelevant for discussion) And P'', in some old paper, was shown to be equivalent to a UTM. < 1275436451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you need to increase your typing speed ;P < 1275436461 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, let me check the wiki to see how it's Turing-complete < 1275436467 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this paper is most notable for being the first to show a structured programming language as being Turing-complete) < 1275436474 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, good: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Brainfuck#Computational_class < 1275436479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, pikhq_ just told you < 1275436483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that would make my hands hurt unreasonably much, i'm afraid < 1275436513 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also who says i'm _thinking_ any faster :D < 1275436536 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I shall note that, as IO capabilities have nothing to do with computability, any language-without-IO is *computationally* equivalent to the same language *with* IO) < 1275436539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i _read_ slowly, too < 1275436546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ;O < 1275436547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P* < 1275436570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that is one thing that can be confusing at first < 1275436590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't someone invent "bf-complete" for describing "TC + byte STDIO"? < 1275436594 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_: well that's a _bit_ simplified, you need some way to get initial data and give final data, even if you don't call it IO < 1275436600 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Probably. < 1275436612 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: something like that < 1275436615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, appended at the end of the program is popular iirc? < 1275436680 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Esolangs tend to be BF-complete. What with stdio being the easiest kind to do, and making it so that it's at least *somewhat* useful. < 1275436699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1275436706 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are most commonly used languages Turing-complete? < 1275436715 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that assumes there is a concept of adding things to the end of the program < 1275436728 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: Yes. < 1275436732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: if you ignore the thorny issue of finite memory, yes < 1275436735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, C is not. since it can not have infinite memory due to the spec requiring sizeof(void*) being finite < 1275436743 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True < 1275436753 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++, amusingly, *is* Turing complete. < 1275436755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, and it also requires all objects to be addressable < 1275436764 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is C++ actually Turing-complete? < 1275436766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq_, oh only through templates iirc? < 1275436771 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes. < 1275436773 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1275436777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, because iirc C++ *templates* are TC at compile time < 1275436781 0 :pikhq_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777: C++'s template system is equivalent to the lambda calculus. < 1275436786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maedhros777, I seen factorial in C++ templates < 1275436792 0 :maedhros777!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't thought of that < 1275436793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one said it was sane