←2010-06-07 2010-06-08 2010-06-09→ ↑2010 ↑all
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01:27:58 <cheater99> anyone here used wu.js ?
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01:49:02 <Luyt> Whoah, I didn't know that there were *that* much esoteric languages!
01:49:16 * Luyt looks at http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
01:50:52 <oerjan> well anyone can make one :)
01:51:53 <oerjan> otoh some make dozens (i'm looking at you zzo38)
01:52:33 <oerjan> or i would, if he were in a channel at the moment
01:52:46 <oerjan> *the channel
01:53:55 <Luyt> I guess it'd require a certain mindset to create a new language, even if it's outrageous.
01:54:25 <oerjan> i suppose i should mention Chris Pressey as well, he was here just a couple hours ago
01:55:14 <oerjan> (the inventor of befunge, one of the most famous ones. he's rarely here.)
01:55:47 <oerjan> well you have to be a geek by definition
01:57:02 <Luyt> maybe a stochastic chance description notation I once wrote for a random music generation program would qualify too, as a language?
01:57:19 <oerjan> heh
01:57:31 <Luyt> But I'd classify that more as a DSL
01:57:35 <oerjan> there are a number of people here doing music things
01:57:50 <oerjan> although not always at the same time as esolanging
01:58:34 <oerjan> Luyt: take a look at Fugue (iirc)
01:58:44 <Luyt> > would mean octave up, + a semitone up, ? a new random note within the current scale context, = the same note again, <space> a pause, etc.... very obvious.
01:59:30 <oerjan> that's a language for programming with music though, rather than the reverse
02:00:39 <Luyt> heh, Fugue is actually something similar which I used for my program. Only my intervals were dependent on scale context, rather than always a fixed musical interval.
02:01:14 <Luyt> plus, my DSL was/is used to generate music, not computations ;-)
02:02:16 <Luyt> whoah, this concept of notating computational operations using musical notes is weird
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02:03:00 <oerjan> it's probably one of the more unusual languages on the wiki
02:03:27 <Luyt> I guess conventional programmers would cry out that such things should not exist
02:06:13 <oerjan> mhm
02:06:23 * Luyt made a bookmark for posteruty
02:06:27 <Luyt> posterity*
02:06:56 <oerjan> i see you obsess about spelling, you'll fit right in here :D
02:10:16 <Luyt> I'm not really someone who gets a kick out of strange languages (although I find them interesting)
02:11:22 <oerjan> oh well
02:11:25 <Luyt> But I'm all for clear expression and readability and maintainability.
02:12:00 <Luyt> Well, at least in my work.
02:12:17 <oerjan> ah
02:12:21 <Luyt> Maybe this esoteric language thing is more like a hobby or something?
02:12:53 <Luyt> I wouldn't write my company's production code in Piet!
02:13:30 <oerjan> you'd think. it's not exactly a career choice... afaik.
02:14:29 <Luyt> Imagine you'd inherit a code base of 100.000 lines of COBOL.
02:15:34 * oerjan only programs for fun, anyhow
02:16:04 <oerjan> and not that often, actually
02:16:17 <Luyt> I see. For me it's both a hobby and work. And some more, too.
02:16:26 <Luyt> Some kind of life-fullfillment
02:17:23 <oerjan> great
02:19:58 <Luyt> There's not much I could do otherwise. Maybe become a baker's apprentice, or a farmhand perhaps
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02:20:22 <oerjan> huh
02:20:48 <Luyt> What else would a deep knowledge of Python's standard library be good for?
02:21:07 <oerjan> very important for bakers, you say? :D
02:21:22 <Luyt> Au contraire: totally irrelevant
02:22:10 <Luyt> A good knowlegde of Python's libraries would/is be great if you program python, but when nobody wants python programs, such knowledge is useless.
02:22:11 <oerjan> i'm sure bakers are very object oriented
02:22:54 * oerjan is generally pun oriented
02:23:23 <Luyt> and abandoning computing and switching to industrial jobs immediately makes all your knowledge useless
02:23:41 <Luyt> Instead you have to learn how to knead dough.
02:25:22 <oerjan> i guess python cannot be used for all your kneads
02:25:40 <Luyt> neither can any other computer language ;-)
02:25:42 <oerjan> (hey, you _were_ warned)
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03:17:14 <uorygl> Gregor: you are hereby expelled for truancy. Get out.
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03:17:34 <Gregor> Ooooh, truancy.
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03:18:08 <oerjan> `define truancy
03:18:08 <HackEgo> Failed to clone the environment!
03:18:14 * oerjan whistles innocently
03:19:36 <Gregor> Yikes
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03:20:06 <Gregor> `define truancy
03:20:15 <HackEgo> No output.
03:20:28 <oerjan> `cat bin/define
03:20:32 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Define what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q=define:'"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 3 'Definitions of' | \ head -n 4 | tail -n 3
03:20:50 <Gregor> Pretty lame :P
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03:22:04 * oerjan thinks everything that depends on google is broken
03:22:45 -!- Gregor has set topic: Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, divine and occult knowledge, esoteric programming languages, ethereal projection | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:23:42 -!- Gregor has set topic: Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, divine and occult knowledge, esoteric programming languages, ethereal and astral projection, government conspiracies to deny common paranormal events | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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03:24:22 <oerjan> i've been half-expecting zzo38 to make an esolang based on tarot soon...
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03:31:21 <oerjan> Gregor: is most of that topic taken from somewhere else?
03:31:34 <Gregor> Nope.
03:31:40 <Gregor> I just spewed it from my brain.
03:31:58 <oerjan> ah. i guess you were channeling it, then.
03:32:05 <Gregor> Yesh :P
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03:41:10 <GreaseMonkey> kudos for the title
03:41:13 <GreaseMonkey> *topic
03:43:04 <Gregor> :P
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04:08:43 <zzo38> 19:24:22:oerjan: I have been half-expecting the same thing, actually
04:09:06 <oerjan> ah
04:09:50 <oerjan> see, i have divinatory powers! *MWAHAHAHA*
04:15:08 <zzo38> I have invented a few card games using tarot cards. (In the games the cards were designed for, they are trick-taking games with the majors being trumps) (But it is possible to design other games as well)
04:16:16 <zzo38> Where do we go to print a deck of cards? (I mean just any kind of deck of cards, in general)
04:16:50 * oerjan doesn't know about such things
04:23:45 <Gregor> It's not easy. Cards have some vital properties that can't be replicated at a print shop.
04:23:52 <Gregor> Namely the coating.
04:26:47 <coppro> Carta Mundi
04:27:01 <zzo38> Gregor: Yes that is why I ask.
04:27:05 <coppro> s/ M/m/
04:27:27 <zzo38> What is Cartamundi anyways?
04:27:35 <coppro> the biggest card printer in the world
04:28:02 <zzo38> Which cities do they have buildings in?
04:28:09 <coppro> only a few factories
04:28:15 <coppro> and they aren't cheap
04:29:17 <coppro> if you're looking for something personal, I don't know where you'd go
04:29:29 <coppro> but if you were making a board game or something, they're the guys to talk to first
04:30:45 <zzo38> Well, at first, it is just something personal I would be looking for. Later on it might be differently
04:32:00 <zzo38> What I should do, is sell the ULTRACARD set, and then the Spider Tarot Deck (including a book), and the Spider Tarot Deck Standards Document (so that anyone else who does so, even if the deck has differences, as long as it follows the general rules described in the standards document, can then say they are conform the standard!)
04:33:19 <zzo38> Have you played D&D recently? The last time I played, I made some serious mistakes that I realized after the session, which I will have to correct, because I did some things wrong
04:35:53 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, divine and occult knowledge, esoteric programming languages, ethereal and astral projection, government conspiracies to deny common paranormal events, someone who has divinatory powers | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
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06:12:44 <coppro> I think I've achieved a new low in PBEM Diplomacy
06:12:59 <coppro> I pretended to typo so that my "secret" messages to each player were sent to everyone
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07:32:57 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/cch7p/the_best_friend/c0rmqlj
07:33:21 <lament> no
07:33:38 <Sgeo> ?
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10:57:42 * CakeProphet is getting crazy language ideas.
10:57:46 <CakeProphet> that's probably not a good thing.
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11:05:55 <CakeProphet> in particular... I was thinking you could have a Haskell-related language with types as first-class entities, and a means to run certain functions at compile time instead of runtime to implement things like constraints.
11:07:09 <CakeProphet> x :: Int | inRange(0,Inf)
11:08:55 <CakeProphet> if the function a) has constant arguments b) does not compute side-effects... then it could be ran at compile-time via an interpreter.
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11:13:47 <CakeProphet> In psuedo-Haskell speak... (|) :: (Constraint c) => t -> c t -> (t | c)
11:14:37 <CakeProphet> | isn't really an operation though... just a declaration of sorts. But those are the types it accepts.
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11:25:58 <jacobSmit> FUCK
11:26:01 <jacobSmit> sorry
11:26:03 <jacobSmit> accident
11:27:48 <ais523> that's a fun accident
11:32:31 <jacobSmit> I guess
11:32:45 <jacobSmit> how many people on this channel actually exist?
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11:41:26 <augur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13YlEPwOfmk
11:41:28 <augur> <3
11:45:03 <ais523> I think most of the people here exist
11:45:08 <ais523> but only a small subset actually pay attention
11:45:17 <ais523> hmm, he's left
11:49:23 <Deewiant> ais523: I have a message to you from cpressey
11:49:34 <ais523> what is it?
11:49:44 <Deewiant> 2010-06-07 23:30:56 ( cpressey) I come to announce Burro 2.0: http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/doc/burro.html
11:49:47 <Deewiant> 2010-06-07 23:34:37 ( cpressey) Well, if you see him before I do, let him know that his offhand observation that Burro was broken, resulted in months of work for me fixing it :)
11:49:50 <Deewiant> 2010-06-07 23:34:52 ( cpressey) Not actual full months -- spare-time-months, of course
11:49:56 <Deewiant> "him" being you
11:49:56 <ais523> ah, aha
11:50:08 <ais523> cpressey: sorry
11:50:35 <Deewiant> What was the observation?
11:50:53 <ais523> that two of the commands weren't actually reverses, or something like that
11:51:02 <Deewiant> Alright
11:51:45 <ais523> ah, it was that {} didn't have an inverse
11:51:51 <ais523> as mentioned in what that link probably was
11:52:00 <ais523> (just because I filter links doesn't mean I can't navigate the Cat's Eye website...)
11:52:01 <Deewiant> Oh, that link does actually state it
11:52:26 <Deewiant> I managed to stop before getting that far
11:52:50 <ais523> hmm, done with typical cpressey thoroughness, I like reading his work
11:52:54 <ais523> or her, I suppose
11:53:02 <ais523> you can't even deduce the gender from the name in that case
11:56:33 <ais523> "Concatenation of instructions is defined as composition of functions"
11:56:37 <ais523> he's even made it concatenative!
11:56:44 <ais523> although it doesn't seem to use typical concatenative control flow
11:59:03 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what sort of category is implied by the group of Burro programs?
12:03:13 <augur> ais523: you need to ping me otherwise i odnt know you're talking to me.
12:03:14 <augur> or are you.
12:03:21 <ais523> I wasn't
12:03:44 <ais523> I was mostly talking to cpressey in the abstract, even though he wasn't here
12:03:50 <ais523> and to the channel in general
12:04:29 <ais523> also, that documentation gives me a worrying thought that Markdown might have been invented /just/ to work with >-style literate Haskell
12:05:34 <augur> ok.
12:05:40 <augur> hard to know!
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13:12:41 <oerjan> <ais523> also, that documentation gives me a worrying thought that Markdown might have been invented /just/ to work with >-style literate Haskell
13:13:33 <oerjan> i think the > style literate programming was invented before haskell. also it's email/usenet quoting.
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13:26:12 <CakeProphet> I AM THE QUEEN OF FRANCE.
13:27:55 <oerjan> OFF WITH HER HEAD!
13:28:11 <oerjan> (that's what the french do with their queens, right?)
13:34:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, I liked d&d annotation today
13:34:29 * oerjan hasn't got to that tab yet
13:34:42 <AnMaster> <oerjan> OFF WITH HER HEAD! <-- I think that quote is from Alice in Wonderland though
13:34:52 <AnMaster> was a while ago I read it, so I could be wrong
13:34:58 <oerjan> probably
13:36:53 <AnMaster> hm I just realised a nice way to measure ambient temperature if you don't have any thermometer handy is to wake a laptop from s2ram and check harddrive temperature right away
13:37:15 <AnMaster> of course it needs to have been suspended for long enough for the harddrive to cool to ambient temperature for this to work
13:37:41 * AnMaster just unsuspended his laptop and according to that measurement indoor temp is ~23 C
13:38:29 * oerjan wonders if Bernard is cockney rhyming slang, and what it means
13:38:40 <oerjan> (i failed to google it)
13:39:35 * oerjan tries harder
13:41:43 <oerjan> so it is, but it doesn't fit the comic
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13:59:40 <CakeProphet> hmmm... does Haskell have a set typeclass?
13:59:51 <CakeProphet> built-in and all.
14:01:15 <oerjan> CakeProphet: not really.
14:01:20 <CakeProphet> ...should.
14:01:38 <CakeProphet> so you could define the set operators for a type... and not the implementation.
14:02:45 <oerjan> CakeProphet: it would have to be multiparameter, which is already an extension...
14:02:58 <oerjan> (set _and_ contained type)
14:03:15 <oerjan> there's probably a package somewhere
14:05:48 <oerjan> AnMaster: "Seriously, that last one is no fun whatsoever." indeed
14:07:21 <oerjan> (where somewhere = hackage, naturally)
14:23:37 <uorygl> \o/
14:23:38 <myndzi> |
14:23:38 <myndzi> /|
14:33:41 <AnMaster> why are 3D editing so awkward I wonder. I mean stuff like 3D modellers, 3D cad programs and so on. They are use awkward to use and the camera controls for the perspective view is usually awkward. And if you realise you need to add something that isn't on what is currently the "outside" of the model, things are really awkward...
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14:35:07 <AnMaster> hm, I think the current user interaction system for those (and it is pretty similar for all 3D editors, just some small differences like which mouse button does what in the perspective view and so on...) needs some major rethinking. Not that I have any idea for a better UI that would work with a normal mouse
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14:36:01 <AnMaster> some 3D positioning glove or such would probably work rather well, but would on the other hand be fairly impractical for people who don't do 3D editing professionally...
14:52:26 <CakeProphet> two words: matrix jack
14:52:34 <CakeProphet> the human brain is the best UI.
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14:55:39 <CakeProphet> and they're easy to make. Just a) figure out, in detail, a consistent and unique pattern that the state of the human brain for a given thought. b) create a computerized implant that can not only poll the brain for these impulses but recognize them as specific thoughts c) ???? d) PROFIT
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15:03:26 <CakeProphet> Just got a new buzzword: program-oriented programming
15:03:34 <CakeProphet> POP... that's catchy.
15:04:24 <CakeProphet> #esoteric should deploy POP as an abstract business solution for concerned markets.
15:05:56 <CakeProphet> In POP everything is a program. This program-oriented environment allows programs to reason about the programs that program what they're programming. Even integers are programs.
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15:18:37 <CakeProphet> Subject-Oriented Programming is an object-oriented software paradigm in which the state (fields) and behavior (methods) of objects are not seen as intrinsic to the objects themselves, but are provided by various subjective perceptions (“subjects”) of the objects.
15:18:42 <CakeProphet> ....lolwat
15:26:27 <relet> Sounds reasonable. If you want to split that string, better bring your own axe.
15:29:10 <ais523> CakeProphet: Unlambda, Underload
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15:34:18 <CakeProphet> so
15:34:28 <ais523> referring to your POP concept
15:34:29 <CakeProphet> as it turns out there's a lot of pedantic dickfaces who program
15:34:36 <ais523> and that doesn't surprise me at all
15:34:47 <CakeProphet> and it seems a lot of them enjoy programming language IRC channels.
15:34:53 <ais523> many good programmers, and probably many bad ones too, are very pedantic
15:35:06 <ais523> a large number of programmers use the Internet, which has an unusually high proportion of dickfaces
15:35:15 <ais523> and it would therefore be surprising if there wasn't a large overlap
15:35:41 <CakeProphet> you could probably write what you just said in Prolog.
15:36:24 <ais523> yes, but why would you?
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15:37:46 <CakeProphet> ais523: well the motivation was never a consideration. :P
15:38:03 <ais523> fair enough
15:38:19 <ais523> in #esoteric, "why not?" is a good enough reason for many programming-related tasks
15:38:22 <ais523> although probably not all of them
15:39:12 <CakeProphet> yes, only if they are esoteric.
15:39:17 <CakeProphet> otherwise there must be reasons.
15:40:17 <CakeProphet> I wonder how you could make person-oriented programming.
15:40:56 <CakeProphet> "XMLParser and BusinessLogicManager perform a handshake and eat at a nice thai restaurant."
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15:45:26 <ais523> hmm, new page: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tubes
15:45:41 <ais523> horrifically formatted and hard to read, but it seems like a legit attempt to make an esolang
15:48:43 <CakeProphet> the cabal will deliberate on who to sacrifice in exchange for an esolang page.
15:48:47 * CakeProphet summons the cabal.
15:49:24 <cpressey> Hi, my name's cpressey and I'll be your cabal today. Can I interest you in the collusion soup?
15:50:17 <CakeProphet> ...
15:50:38 <CakeProphet> I made an (unimplemented) language that looks similar to Tubes.
15:51:16 <CakeProphet> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BugSophia
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16:34:13 <ais523> wait, what happened to the topic?
16:34:56 -!- ais523 has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language development and deployment | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:35:16 <ais523> hmm, I think I probably screwed the topic up somewhere
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16:48:54 -!- CakeProphet has set topic: Guess I got my swagga' back..
16:49:18 <CakeProphet> ...
16:52:15 <ais523> CakeProphet: you need to at least put the log link in
16:52:18 <ais523> freenode rules
16:52:25 <ais523> and that's a ridiculous topic
16:53:37 -!- CakeProphet has set topic: Guess I got my swagga' back | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
16:53:43 <CakeProphet> :3
16:54:08 <CakeProphet> Sorry. I've been listening to some quality dubstep so I feel a little dirty.
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17:42:15 <Nikobal> hi there!!
17:43:51 <Ilari_antrcomp> Nikobal: Hi... Got any ideas for new esolangs? :->
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17:49:32 <Nikobal> Ilari_antrcomp, what are eso-langs?
17:49:59 <Ilari_antrcomp> Nikobal: Esoteric programming languages (the topic of this channel).
17:52:38 <Nikobal> uhm
17:52:45 <Nikobal> i am new here
17:53:04 <Ilari_antrcomp> Nikobal: Doing things the sane way in them is not a requirement (in fact, it should be avoided). :->
17:53:08 <Nikobal> and wana get a channel about esoteric, not a programming language
17:53:19 <Nikobal> but
17:53:23 <Nikobal> i wana start python some time
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17:53:38 <Ilari_antrcomp> Nikobal: Its not one programming language, it is whole group of them...
17:54:12 <Nikobal> ye, so brainfuck like stuff
17:54:28 <Nikobal> but i am here with focus on esoteric, this is way older then computers.
17:54:43 <cpressey> But brainfuck et al are so much more enlightening :)
18:04:13 <cheater99> has alize made it to the news yet
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18:12:51 <cpressey> cheater99: Uh oh, has there been more drama recently?
18:15:14 <cheater99> she's 'separated'
18:15:29 <cheater99> or hm
18:15:35 <cheater99> is it 'isolated'?
18:16:13 <pineapple> cheater99: "he"
18:17:08 <cheater99> i think the nick wouldn't be alize if alize didn't secretly want to be called 'she'
18:17:16 <cheater99> didn't she say that she wanted to see that happen
18:17:55 <pineapple> ...
18:18:35 <cpressey> cheater99: You mean, she's stuck offline again?
18:18:45 <cheater99> yeah
18:20:51 -!- asiekierka has joined.
18:20:55 <asiekierka> hi
18:21:03 <asiekierka> i have been attempting to design an esolang... again
18:21:03 <cheater99> cpressey: i just hope alize makes it through the week ok
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18:21:10 <asiekierka> and its unlike dobela
18:21:18 <cheater99> asiekierka, welcome to the ESO language support channel
18:21:24 <cpressey> What ho, asiekierka!
18:21:30 <asiekierka> it has 17 commands
18:21:34 <asiekierka> including NOP (space)
18:21:39 <asiekierka> so it has 16 actual commands
18:21:44 <asiekierka> first, it's 2D
18:21:50 <asiekierka> and the concept evolves around binary and a stack
18:21:55 <asiekierka> as in you can input either 0 or 1 to the stack
18:22:02 <asiekierka> so the stack could be "1,0,1,1,0,0,1"
18:22:15 <asiekierka> now, i'll continue in a few mins
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18:28:50 <asie[brb]> back
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18:29:03 <asiekierka> so our stack looks like "1,0,1,1,0,0,1"
18:29:05 <asiekierka> left being top
18:29:07 <asiekierka> right being botton
18:29:09 <asiekierka> bottom*
18:29:13 <asiekierka> now, there's a JOIN command, "="
18:29:20 <asiekierka> executing it on our stack will make it
18:29:25 <asiekierka> "10,1,1,0,0,1"
18:29:32 <asiekierka> effectively turning the 2 binary digits into a binary number
18:29:34 <asiekierka> running it again gives
18:29:39 <asiekierka> "101,1,0,0,1"
18:29:54 <asiekierka> of course, we might not want such a mode, so we use the SPLIT "#" command
18:29:57 <asiekierka> running it on this gives
18:30:01 <asiekierka> "1,0,1,1,0,0,1"
18:30:23 <asiekierka> there's also a way to swap the two topmost elements of the stack
18:30:27 <asiekierka> "@"
18:30:31 <asiekierka> "0,1,1,1,0,0,1"
18:30:41 <asiekierka> BUT what if we want to get to the FIFTH part and not the second?
18:30:43 <asiekierka> Don't worry
18:30:44 <asiekierka> this will do it
18:30:49 <asiekierka> on "1,0,1,1,0,0,1"
18:30:57 <asiekierka> ===@
18:31:00 <asiekierka> the 3 join's will do
18:31:03 <asiekierka> "1011,0,0,1"
18:31:05 <asiekierka> then the swap does
18:31:08 <asiekierka> "0,1011,0,1"
18:31:13 <asiekierka> voila! we have accessed what we wanted
18:31:18 <asiekierka> to go back we just have to do @#
18:31:42 <asiekierka> we also have other commands
18:31:51 <asiekierka> like X - remove from stack (result: "0,1,1,0,0,1")
18:32:01 <asiekierka> ^ - XOR (result: 1,1,1,0,0,1)
18:32:18 <asiekierka> $ - terminate (result: C:\_ for you MS-DOSers, and something else for you Unixers)
18:32:30 <asiekierka> ! - perform a NOT (result: 0,0,1,1,0,0,1)
18:32:42 <asiekierka> ? - skips the next command if the binary value is nonzero
18:32:47 <asiekierka> (the result being it does skip it)
18:32:54 <asiekierka> > - outputs, modulo 256
18:32:58 <asiekierka> < - inputs into the stack
18:33:13 <asiekierka> and / \ - rotates the IP left or right, respectively
18:33:19 <asiekierka> and finally:
18:33:23 <asiekierka> + - adds the 2 binary numbers
18:33:37 <asiekierka> - - subtracts the 2 binary numbers (if the result is <0, it's kept as 0)
18:33:42 <asiekierka> this is all so far
18:33:47 <asiekierka> any quest---wait...
18:33:49 <asiekierka> did anyone listen?
18:35:15 <asiekierka> AND is essentially =-
18:35:26 <asiekierka> OR is, uh...
18:36:10 <asiekierka> oh right, new command
18:36:15 <asiekierka> % - clone current binary value
18:36:28 <asiekierka> so we have (1,0)
18:36:41 <asiekierka> now, we have
18:37:19 <pineapple> asiekierka: the "something else for you Unixers" is probably a $, actually
18:37:23 <asiekierka> haha
18:37:27 <asiekierka> lol
18:37:29 <pineapple> well
18:37:32 <asiekierka> im thinking how to pull off an OR
18:37:33 <pineapple> at least
18:37:40 <pineapple> the default bash prompt ends in $
18:38:01 <asiekierka> actually
18:38:08 <asiekierka> i want to replace ? (abused in so many 2D esolangs)
18:38:14 <asiekierka> to [...] - BF equalivment
18:40:22 <asiekierka> =[1@X]
18:40:34 <asiekierka> here you go, an OR implemented in an as-of-yet unnamed language
18:43:02 <asiekierka> actually, i've realized i dont need [...] in 2D
18:43:04 <asiekierka> so we stay at ?
18:43:22 <asiekierka> and my friend kindly made a 1D OR working for that
18:43:25 <asiekierka> =?1?@?X
18:44:43 <asiekierka> my friend is now going to make a hello world
18:45:28 <pineapple> how does that OR work?
18:45:33 <asiekierka> oh, heh
18:45:40 <asiekierka> let's see at the example of a (1,0) stack
18:45:43 <asiekierka> it first joins it to make 10
18:45:44 <cpressey> Interesting observation: We can think of [...] as a way to extend 1D into ~1.5D (consider the added stack to be something close to "half a dimension"), precisely because 1 dimension isn't enough to be Turing-complete.
18:45:56 <asiekierka> if it's non-zero, it inputs 1
18:45:59 <asiekierka> so it's (1,10)
18:46:03 <asiekierka> now it swaps if it's nonzero
18:46:05 <asiekierka> so it's (10,1)
18:46:07 <asiekierka> then it deletes the 10
18:46:09 <asiekierka> giving (1)
18:46:13 <asiekierka> :)
18:46:21 <asiekierka> another example, (1,1)
18:46:35 <asiekierka> (1,1) -> (11) -> (1,11) -> (11,1) -> (1)
18:46:45 <asiekierka> it is a 1-bit OR, though
18:46:49 <asiekierka> but whatever
18:46:55 <asiekierka> the XOR and NOT are not 1-bit though
18:47:39 <asiekierka> to make a more than 1-bit OR would require a lot of tinkering
18:47:46 <asiekierka> by storing those
18:48:16 <asiekierka> (10,01) -> (11)
18:49:37 <asiekierka> i might add extra AND/OR commands because of that, tho
18:49:50 <asiekierka> and get rid of NOT
18:49:55 <pineapple> hmm...
18:49:57 <pineapple> why?
18:50:02 <asiekierka> why?
18:50:09 <asiekierka> because, if you have (100) to NOT
18:50:12 <asiekierka> you can just do
18:50:15 <pineapple> why get rid of not?
18:50:19 <asiekierka> 111==-
18:50:26 <asiekierka> as in
18:50:32 <asiekierka> (100) -> (111,100) -> (011)
18:50:35 <asiekierka> you can easily emulate it
18:50:40 <asiekierka> without a proper command
18:51:04 <pineapple> i guess i don't understand esolang design, then
18:51:19 <asiekierka> well you can just do it without a command on it's own
18:51:29 <asiekierka> and my esolang goal is to never make commands that can be done with other commands
18:51:45 <pineapple> it kinda takes "if there's a way to do a command without using it, then don't include it" to the hardcore extreme
18:51:55 <asiekierka> but there's a SIMPLE way
18:51:56 <asiekierka> to do that
18:52:02 <asiekierka> if it took like 101 commands
18:52:04 <asiekierka> i would include it
18:52:19 <asiekierka> but if it only takes (bits*2) commands to do that?
18:52:28 <asiekierka> as in for a 5-bit value it takes 5*2 commands
18:52:51 <pineapple> sounds like the reason why complex.h doesn't have the cis function
18:53:17 <Ilari_antrcomp> Isn't that just exp(i*x)?
18:53:17 <asiekierka> AND, OR and XOR can be emulated with other commands but only for 1 bit
18:53:29 <asiekierka> other than that it's pretty hard
18:53:34 <asiekierka> but that might show a weakness
18:53:38 <pineapple> Ilari_antrcomp: or cos(x) + I*sin(x)
18:53:43 <asiekierka> for values bigger than 1 bit it's hard to do MUCH operations between tem
18:53:49 <asiekierka> between them*
18:54:05 <asiekierka> i believe that might warrant one more command
18:54:09 <asiekierka> ) - rotates the stack
18:54:15 <asiekierka> as in the topmost item gets pushed to the very bottom
18:54:22 <pineapple> nice
18:54:37 <pineapple> i like that without the opposite instruction
18:54:42 <asiekierka> the opposite can be done
18:54:50 <asiekierka> wait, it can't
18:54:52 <pineapple> but is it needed?
18:54:54 <asiekierka> nope
18:55:01 <pineapple> see?
18:55:03 <asiekierka> haha
18:55:06 <pineapple> i do (kinda) get it
18:55:35 <asiekierka> im thinking how to do (
18:55:41 <asiekierka> easier than typing ))))))))))))))))))
18:55:51 <asiekierka> also we don't know the stack size
18:56:37 <asiekierka> i was thinking
18:56:40 <asiekierka> i could do a command, "S"
18:56:50 <asiekierka> S - output the current stack size to the stack
18:57:26 <asiekierka> and i've realized
18:57:29 <asiekierka> with the addition of )
18:57:35 <asiekierka> you can in theory move any value anywhere
18:57:42 <asiekierka> you can use join to get to the 5th value
18:57:44 <asiekierka> swap them
18:57:47 <asiekierka> use )
18:57:52 <asiekierka> and then split the joined one
18:57:57 <asiekierka> to get the 5th value to the bottom
18:58:04 <asiekierka> then join to get to the 4th value
18:58:20 <asiekierka> swa---wait
18:58:31 <asiekierka> that's it, i add in ( as it is in fact needed
18:58:41 <asiekierka> if i was really evil
18:58:47 <asiekierka> i wouldnt include right rotation
18:58:50 <asiekierka> as that's an opposite
18:58:59 <asiekierka> so you join to get to the 4th value
18:59:04 <asiekierka> do (
18:59:06 <asiekierka> swap,
18:59:08 <asiekierka> and split
18:59:14 <asiekierka> to move the 5th value to the 4th
19:00:01 <asiekierka> that makes it 19 commands
19:00:37 <asiekierka> example mover: moves 3rd value to 2nd
19:01:22 <asiekierka> =@)#(@
19:01:51 <asiekierka> if not for the lack of an = at the end
19:02:03 <asiekierka> we'd have a code palindrome... or something
19:07:48 <asiekierka> now i wonder
19:07:56 <asiekierka> IS IT TURING COMPLEETED
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19:50:01 <cpressey> asiekierka: I don't think I saw anything that would serve as an "if", but I wasn't paying full attention
19:56:26 <cpressey> cute, a self-modifying sieve of Eratosthenes: http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/2008/05/prolog-chr-prime-seive-one-liner.html
19:56:35 * cpressey wonders where fax is these days
19:57:05 <asiekierka> heh
19:57:12 <asiekierka> i found out about the CARDIAC paper computer
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20:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Why is CakeProphet's swagga' so important?
20:00:41 <cpressey> Several theorems rely on it
20:00:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, such as?
20:02:07 * cpressey points to one such theorem as it drifts past
20:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> What is CakeProphet's swagga'?
20:07:48 <cpressey> That's a good question.
20:07:58 <cpressey> Probably best answered by CakeProphet.
20:09:20 <CakeProphet> well.
20:09:31 <CakeProphet> it is a crunk form of locomotion often attributed to gangsters such as myself.
20:11:27 <CakeProphet> It's a distinctly American ideal.
20:11:35 * CakeProphet is all-American.
20:16:12 <Phantom_Hoover> How does it pertain to mathematics?
20:16:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I thought all-American accents were rhotic?
20:18:32 <CakeProphet> ha. Depends on how fast you're speaking
20:19:02 <CakeProphet> and... doesn't everything pertain to mathematics? At least, that's what my mathematics professors always tell me.
20:19:29 <CakeProphet> I mean, the alternative is that they were all just arrogant pricks.
20:19:34 <CakeProphet> ...and that can't be right.
20:22:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Everything is mathematics.
20:23:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Except swagga's.
20:23:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (If anything, "swagga'" is all-Australian)
20:23:58 <cpressey> I thought that was "swagman". Specifically of the "jolly" variety.
20:25:49 <Phantom_Hoover> No, just in terms of rhoticity.
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20:33:51 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: I would also stipulate that everyone is /not/ our current understanding of mathematics.
20:33:56 <CakeProphet> which is a point that some people seem to gloss over.
20:34:36 <CakeProphet> ...meaning that most systems can be modelled mathematically, but we do not necessarily have the knowledge or endurance to do the modelling.
20:34:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course.
20:35:25 <CakeProphet> also. here is where I found my swagga': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpAePSP-ni4
20:35:41 <CakeProphet> though you might be offended by my musical tastes.
20:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> I have my speakers turned off.
20:36:09 <CakeProphet> ha.
20:36:23 <CakeProphet> well, if you click on the link
20:36:47 <CakeProphet> you'll see some nice album art, a moving slider, and some intelligent commentary.
20:43:46 <Phantom_Hoover> One of those was present.
20:44:02 <CakeProphet> ha.
20:44:08 <CakeProphet> such wit.
20:44:18 <CakeProphet> well, /some/ album art. That's two.
20:45:01 <Phantom_Hoover> You explicitly said "nice".
20:46:08 <CakeProphet> nice in the sense that it was courteous of the submitter to include an image to look at as you watch the slider move.
20:47:13 <CakeProphet> Anyways. I'm going to go play a game of Risk. I will likely not return for several days.
20:47:26 <CakeProphet> but actually it'll be like 3 hours or something.
20:47:36 <CakeProphet> Farewell.
20:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, we hate Java here. But what else do we hate?
20:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> C++?
20:49:02 <Phantom_Hoover> C#?
20:49:08 <CakeProphet> ...I actually like all of those languages...
20:49:58 <CakeProphet> well...
20:50:03 <CakeProphet> if I had to pick I would say Java.
20:50:20 <CakeProphet> Because it basically is just C# without any of the good features.
20:50:30 <CakeProphet> but they're all fine.
20:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Haskell seems to be popular...
20:51:10 <CakeProphet> yes.
20:51:35 <CakeProphet> some of us like Lisp as well
20:51:39 * CakeProphet is now gone.
20:54:50 <cpressey> Some of us hate Python...
20:55:01 <cpressey> Well, "hate" is too strong a word.
20:55:05 <cpressey> I feel sorry for Python.
21:07:42 <asiekierka> I dont like Pyhon
21:07:43 <asiekierka> Python*
21:07:47 <asiekierka> i just dont like the syntax
21:07:54 <asiekierka> sadly, nobody understands me
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21:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I quite like Python.
21:09:40 <Phantom_Hoover> When I'm bored and don't want to search through reams of documentation to do things.
21:12:33 <asiekierka> I use 6502 ASM for that
21:12:37 <asiekierka> a bit more
21:12:41 <asiekierka> and i'll have it memorized
21:12:53 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
21:14:08 <cpressey> I've been doing a fair amount of C64/VIC20 coding lately, and I almost have it memorized. Except for BIT of course.
21:21:18 <cpressey> I don't mind Java, per se, for the most part. The world that most Java coders inhabit, on the other hand...
21:28:07 <Phantom_Hoover> BIT?
21:31:13 <cpressey> http://www.obelisk.demon.co.uk/6502/reference.html#BIT
21:31:27 <cpressey> Who can remember all that? ;)
21:31:51 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:32:23 <cpressey> Maybe if I was really into testing what bits 6 and 7 are, I would care enough to...
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22:04:29 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
22:05:04 <oerjan> Ectoplasm_Scooper!
22:05:59 <Phantom_Hoover> You'll run out eventually.
22:06:20 <Oranjer> hint: The Ghost that Sucks
22:06:20 <oerjan> that was my thought too, just before writing that
22:06:44 <oerjan> Oranjer: i think i did that before
22:07:00 <Oranjer> oh
22:07:35 <fizzie`> For what its for, I've never really needed the N and V flag-settings of BIT, and it's reasonably easy to remember the "main" functionality of it (and A and memory, throw away the result but set zero flag accordingly).
22:09:10 <cpressey> So BIT is to AND as CMP is to SBC (roughly)?
22:15:04 <oerjan> <pineapple> it kinda takes "if there's a way to do a command without using it, then don't include it" to the hardcore extreme
22:15:12 <oerjan> that's almost what "tarpit" means
22:15:28 <oerjan> imo
22:16:15 <oerjan> (you will note our wiki has a specific category for Turing Tarpits (tarpits that are turing complete)
22:16:18 <oerjan> )
22:16:57 <cpressey> A set of features of X is minimal for Y if removing any one of those features from X results in something that's no longer Y
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22:20:15 <oerjan> * cpressey wonders where fax is these days <-- i banned her a while ago, after she went completely ballistic.
22:21:17 <oerjan> only for a few days though, but she hasn't shown up since afaik
22:21:52 <cpressey> Oh great, more eso drama.
22:22:33 <cpressey> Her last blog entry was March 29, so I was wondering.
22:22:35 <oerjan> i don't recall that much drama otherwise, other than alise's and AnMaster's semi-friendly bitching
22:22:39 <oerjan> oh
22:23:02 <cpressey> not that it's a really frequently-updated blog
22:23:20 <cpressey> was it a mathematically-oriented ballistic? :)
22:23:30 <oerjan> hm i _think_ it was later than that, i'm not quite sure
22:23:43 <oerjan> not really
22:23:54 <oerjan> there's was a previous one that sort of was, iirc
22:25:10 <oerjan> anyway, she took a joke as a completely serious insult, an spammed a wall of "fuck you"s back
22:25:16 <oerjan> *and
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22:26:35 <Rugxulo> o_O
22:26:41 * Rugxulo sees a ghost
22:27:17 <oerjan> Rugxulo: it's a pretty sucky ghost. unless you see someone other than i do
22:27:31 <Rugxulo> cpressey ^_^
22:27:47 <oerjan> cpressey is no ghost. afaik.
22:28:14 <Rugxulo> ain't heard from him yet, so ...
22:28:27 <oerjan> (neither is he sucky, just to be clear)
22:29:30 <cpressey> Hey, I'm not dead *yet*.
22:29:36 <Rugxulo> ;-)
22:30:06 <Rugxulo> just so you know, I wrote Rexx and Pascal interpreters for B93, also hacked up a DOS assembly one (not yours) to be 982 bytes
22:30:31 <cpressey> Rexx. Very nice.
22:30:37 <Rugxulo> but it's not as impressive as AnMaster (CFunge) and Deewiant (CCBI)
22:30:55 <Rugxulo> oops, should've said dual Borland-ish / ISO 7185 (compiles in both without changes)
22:31:08 <Rugxulo> although there's no built-in random in ISO 7185
22:31:20 <Rugxulo> but it just ignores that ;-)
22:32:36 <Rugxulo> anyways, I posted them to comp.lang.rexx and comp.lang.pascal.{borland,ansi-iso}, respectively
22:32:50 <Rugxulo> not that it really matters, but since you're here anyways ............
22:34:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Fax's blog?
22:34:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Link?
22:34:18 <Rugxulo> ??
22:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I need to go, but I'll logread tomorrow.
22:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Far above.
22:34:36 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/
22:38:09 <Rugxulo> "now stop worrying and enjoy your life" ... yeah, that was worth putting up a billboard for :-P
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22:43:37 <Rugxulo> anyways
22:55:02 <Rugxulo> cpressey: there are also assembly B93 interpreters for Win32 and {Open-,NetBSD} on FASM's forum, though I didn't write 'em ;-)
22:55:21 <Rugxulo> though for some odd reason (terminal comfortability???) the *BSD dude used 41x25 :-/
22:55:59 <Rugxulo> FreePascal 2.4.0 compiles mine to 30k (static!), UPX halves that
22:56:05 <cpressey> Interesting. You mentioned mine -- befia? Is it still floating around out there somewhere?
22:56:18 <Rugxulo> on your site???
22:56:28 <cpressey> It's on my site??
22:56:36 <Rugxulo> none of these are based upon that (which, AFAICT, was loosely based upon befos or maybe the C version or both??)
22:56:46 <cpressey> Not anymore.
22:56:51 <Rugxulo> but if you want the FASM forum link, I can show you
22:57:12 <Rugxulo> yes, it's on your site, last I checked
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22:57:33 <cpressey> Well, as long as they pass Mycology, I'm happy.
22:57:37 <cpressey> How long ago did you check?
22:57:41 <Rugxulo> http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/src/turbo/bf93.tasm
22:57:47 <Rugxulo> three seconds ;-)
22:57:55 <cpressey> Oh crap, hah.
22:58:14 <Rugxulo> messagedb'befia v0.90, usage: befia <befunge-93-source>', 13, 10, '$'
22:58:41 <Rugxulo> in other words, it doesn't work out-of-the-box (e.g., in DOS, Win32, etc)
22:58:44 <cpressey> Yeah, I guess befia wormed its way into BefOS, even though IIRC it's not used heavily in it.
22:59:01 <cpressey> Used to be its own project on the site -- not anymore.
22:59:06 <Rugxulo> BTW, just to tell you two very minor details:
22:59:28 <Rugxulo> Borland is still around (somewhat), but they spun off the development tools / IDEs to CodeGear, which is now owned by Embarcadero
22:59:44 <Rugxulo> Turbo C++ Explorer 2006 (which never installed correctly for me) was freeware, and it had latest / last TASM32 5.3
22:59:52 <Rugxulo> but they don't offer it online anymore :-(
23:00:17 <Rugxulo> oh, and NASM by default aligns data section to four bytes, so you have to say "section .data align=1" if you want to avoid that (whereas you just ignored that directive altogether for same effect)
23:00:47 <cpressey> Oh, right. I converted all my TASM sources of note to NASM. Except befia. But it still lives in the old TASM directory of BefOS.
23:01:01 <cpressey> I remember running into some damn alignment issue when converting Shelta to NASM.
23:01:15 <Rugxulo> right, I saw you mention somewhere in there
23:01:28 <Rugxulo> I would've e-mailed you, but I couldn't find one, so I guess you didn't want to be bothered
23:01:52 * Rugxulo only learned Befunge93 since around September of last year, so ...
23:02:15 <cpressey> It's on my site if you look hard enough.
23:02:56 <Rugxulo> well it's moot now ;-)
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23:09:59 <Rugxulo`> bah, now I'm the ghost! :-P
23:11:54 <Rugxulo`> Rugxulo: *shakes fist*
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