00:35:58 -!- jabb_work has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:41:04 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:41:44 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:27:58 anyone here used wu.js ? 01:47:32 -!- Luyt has joined. 01:49:02 Whoah, I didn't know that there were *that* much esoteric languages! 01:49:16 * Luyt looks at http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list 01:50:52 well anyone can make one :) 01:51:53 otoh some make dozens (i'm looking at you zzo38) 01:52:33 or i would, if he were in a channel at the moment 01:52:46 *the channel 01:53:55 I guess it'd require a certain mindset to create a new language, even if it's outrageous. 01:54:25 i suppose i should mention Chris Pressey as well, he was here just a couple hours ago 01:55:14 (the inventor of befunge, one of the most famous ones. he's rarely here.) 01:55:47 well you have to be a geek by definition 01:57:02 maybe a stochastic chance description notation I once wrote for a random music generation program would qualify too, as a language? 01:57:19 heh 01:57:31 But I'd classify that more as a DSL 01:57:35 there are a number of people here doing music things 01:57:50 although not always at the same time as esolanging 01:58:34 Luyt: take a look at Fugue (iirc) 01:58:44 > would mean octave up, + a semitone up, ? a new random note within the current scale context, = the same note again, a pause, etc.... very obvious. 01:59:30 that's a language for programming with music though, rather than the reverse 02:00:39 heh, Fugue is actually something similar which I used for my program. Only my intervals were dependent on scale context, rather than always a fixed musical interval. 02:01:14 plus, my DSL was/is used to generate music, not computations ;-) 02:02:16 whoah, this concept of notating computational operations using musical notes is weird 02:02:59 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 02:03:00 it's probably one of the more unusual languages on the wiki 02:03:27 I guess conventional programmers would cry out that such things should not exist 02:06:13 mhm 02:06:23 * Luyt made a bookmark for posteruty 02:06:27 posterity* 02:06:56 i see you obsess about spelling, you'll fit right in here :D 02:10:16 I'm not really someone who gets a kick out of strange languages (although I find them interesting) 02:11:22 oh well 02:11:25 But I'm all for clear expression and readability and maintainability. 02:12:00 Well, at least in my work. 02:12:17 ah 02:12:21 Maybe this esoteric language thing is more like a hobby or something? 02:12:53 I wouldn't write my company's production code in Piet! 02:13:30 you'd think. it's not exactly a career choice... afaik. 02:14:29 Imagine you'd inherit a code base of 100.000 lines of COBOL. 02:14:39 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa 02:15:34 * oerjan only programs for fun, anyhow 02:16:04 and not that often, actually 02:16:17 I see. For me it's both a hobby and work. And some more, too. 02:16:26 Some kind of life-fullfillment 02:17:23 great 02:19:58 There's not much I could do otherwise. Maybe become a baker's apprentice, or a farmhand perhaps 02:20:09 -!- jabb has joined. 02:20:22 huh 02:20:48 What else would a deep knowledge of Python's standard library be good for? 02:21:07 very important for bakers, you say? :D 02:21:22 Au contraire: totally irrelevant 02:22:10 A good knowlegde of Python's libraries would/is be great if you program python, but when nobody wants python programs, such knowledge is useless. 02:22:11 i'm sure bakers are very object oriented 02:22:54 * oerjan is generally pun oriented 02:23:23 and abandoning computing and switching to industrial jobs immediately makes all your knowledge useless 02:23:41 Instead you have to learn how to knead dough. 02:25:22 i guess python cannot be used for all your kneads 02:25:40 neither can any other computer language ;-) 02:25:42 (hey, you _were_ warned) 02:28:43 -!- aoper has joined. 02:41:22 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 02:41:25 -!- aoper has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:43:24 -!- Mathnerd314__ has joined. 02:43:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:43:45 -!- Mathnerd314__ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 02:47:10 -!- Mathnerd314_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:52:56 -!- lifthras1ir has joined. 02:53:08 -!- pineappl1 has joined. 02:53:48 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:53:48 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:53:49 -!- pineapple has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:53:50 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:56:02 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 03:11:11 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 03:11:57 -!- Gregor has joined. 03:12:47 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:17:14 Gregor: you are hereby expelled for truancy. Get out. 03:17:16 -!- Mathnerd314_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:17:34 Ooooh, truancy. 03:17:52 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 03:18:08 `define truancy 03:18:08 Failed to clone the environment! 03:18:14 * oerjan whistles innocently 03:19:36 Yikes 03:19:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Excess Flood). 03:20:06 `define truancy 03:20:15 No output. 03:20:28 `cat bin/define 03:20:32 #!/bin/bash \ if [ ! "$1" ] \ then \ echo 'Define what?' \ exit 1 \ fi \ \ QUERY=`echo -n "$1" | od -t x1 -A n -w1000 | tr " " %` \ \ lynx --cfg=/dev/null --lss=/dev/null \ \ --dump --width=1000 'http://google.com/search?q=define:'"$QUERY" | \ grep -A 3 'Definitions of' | \ head -n 4 | tail -n 3 03:20:50 Pretty lame :P 03:21:39 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 03:22:04 * oerjan thinks everything that depends on google is broken 03:22:45 -!- Gregor has set topic: Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, divine and occult knowledge, esoteric programming languages, ethereal projection | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 03:23:42 -!- Gregor has set topic: Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, divine and occult knowledge, esoteric programming languages, ethereal and astral projection, government conspiracies to deny common paranormal events | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 03:24:04 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Excess Flood). 03:24:22 i've been half-expecting zzo38 to make an esolang based on tarot soon... 03:26:15 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 03:30:51 -!- Mathnerd314_ has joined. 03:31:21 Gregor: is most of that topic taken from somewhere else? 03:31:34 Nope. 03:31:40 I just spewed it from my brain. 03:31:58 ah. i guess you were channeling it, then. 03:32:05 Yesh :P 03:33:45 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:33:47 -!- Mathnerd314_ has changed nick to Mathnerd314. 03:38:16 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:41:10 kudos for the title 03:41:13 *topic 03:43:04 :P 03:56:15 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:05:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:08:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:08:43 19:24:22:oerjan: I have been half-expecting the same thing, actually 04:09:06 ah 04:09:50 see, i have divinatory powers! *MWAHAHAHA* 04:15:08 I have invented a few card games using tarot cards. (In the games the cards were designed for, they are trick-taking games with the majors being trumps) (But it is possible to design other games as well) 04:16:16 Where do we go to print a deck of cards? (I mean just any kind of deck of cards, in general) 04:16:50 * oerjan doesn't know about such things 04:23:45 It's not easy. Cards have some vital properties that can't be replicated at a print shop. 04:23:52 Namely the coating. 04:26:47 Carta Mundi 04:27:01 Gregor: Yes that is why I ask. 04:27:05 s/ M/m/ 04:27:27 What is Cartamundi anyways? 04:27:35 the biggest card printer in the world 04:28:02 Which cities do they have buildings in? 04:28:09 only a few factories 04:28:15 and they aren't cheap 04:29:17 if you're looking for something personal, I don't know where you'd go 04:29:29 but if you were making a board game or something, they're the guys to talk to first 04:30:45 Well, at first, it is just something personal I would be looking for. Later on it might be differently 04:32:00 What I should do, is sell the ULTRACARD set, and then the Spider Tarot Deck (including a book), and the Spider Tarot Deck Standards Document (so that anyone else who does so, even if the deck has differences, as long as it follows the general rules described in the standards document, can then say they are conform the standard!) 04:33:19 Have you played D&D recently? The last time I played, I made some serious mistakes that I realized after the session, which I will have to correct, because I did some things wrong 04:35:53 -!- zzo38 has set topic: Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, divine and occult knowledge, esoteric programming languages, ethereal and astral projection, government conspiracies to deny common paranormal events, someone who has divinatory powers | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 04:40:28 -!- augur has joined. 04:47:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 04:48:38 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Remember to close the light.). 05:00:33 -!- Luyt_ has joined. 05:01:36 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:01:38 -!- Luyt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:16:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:24:34 -!- sebbu has joined. 05:52:39 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 05:55:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:55:38 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 06:12:44 I think I've achieved a new low in PBEM Diplomacy 06:12:59 I pretended to typo so that my "secret" messages to each player were sent to everyone 06:27:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:28:30 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:47:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:51:17 -!- jabb has quit (Quit: Page closed). 06:59:19 -!- tombom has joined. 07:00:50 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:02:43 -!- lament has joined. 07:07:37 -!- augur has joined. 07:07:47 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:11:30 -!- augur has joined. 07:12:31 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:25:21 -!- jabb has joined. 07:27:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:30:57 -!- pineappl1 has changed nick to pineapple. 07:30:59 -!- lament has joined. 07:32:57 http://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/cch7p/the_best_friend/c0rmqlj 07:33:21 no 07:33:38 ? 07:50:27 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:54:41 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Quit: Vegabondmx). 07:57:49 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:20:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it). 08:23:22 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 08:28:48 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 08:36:35 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds). 08:38:05 -!- myndzi has joined. 08:40:59 -!- jabb has quit (Quit: Page closed). 08:42:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:46:52 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:50:20 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:51:08 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 08:51:38 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:53:12 -!- jabb has joined. 08:57:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:00:51 -!- Adrian^L_ has joined. 09:01:16 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:03:14 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:03:38 -!- k has joined. 09:03:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:04:00 -!- k has changed nick to kar8nga. 09:04:41 -!- mycrofti1 has joined. 09:05:19 -!- chuck_ has joined. 09:05:31 -!- Deewiant_ has joined. 09:09:37 -!- fizzie` has joined. 09:09:41 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 09:09:41 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 09:09:41 -!- chuck has quit (*.net *.split). 09:09:41 -!- yiyus has quit (*.net *.split). 09:09:41 -!- Adrian^L has quit (*.net *.split). 09:09:41 -!- mycroftiv has quit (*.net *.split). 09:18:02 -!- myndzi has joined. 09:27:38 -!- yiyus has joined. 09:37:35 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 09:37:54 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:54:58 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:08:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:27:12 -!- jabb has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:37:53 -!- AndroUser has joined. 10:38:19 -!- AndroUser has quit (Client Quit). 10:51:24 -!- Deewiant_ has changed nick to Deewiant. 10:57:42 * CakeProphet is getting crazy language ideas. 10:57:46 that's probably not a good thing. 11:01:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:05:55 in particular... I was thinking you could have a Haskell-related language with types as first-class entities, and a means to run certain functions at compile time instead of runtime to implement things like constraints. 11:07:09 x :: Int | inRange(0,Inf) 11:08:55 if the function a) has constant arguments b) does not compute side-effects... then it could be ran at compile-time via an interpreter. 11:09:47 -!- jacobSmit has joined. 11:12:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:13:47 In psuedo-Haskell speak... (|) :: (Constraint c) => t -> c t -> (t | c) 11:14:37 | isn't really an operation though... just a declaration of sorts. But those are the types it accepts. 11:15:34 -!- jacobSmit has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:17:09 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:25:24 -!- jacobSmit has joined. 11:25:58 FUCK 11:26:01 sorry 11:26:03 accident 11:27:48 that's a fun accident 11:32:31 I guess 11:32:45 how many people on this channel actually exist? 11:36:03 -!- myndzi has joined. 11:38:04 -!- myndzi\ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:40:29 -!- jacobSmit has left (?). 11:40:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:41:12 -!- augur has joined. 11:41:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13YlEPwOfmk 11:41:28 <3 11:45:03 I think most of the people here exist 11:45:08 but only a small subset actually pay attention 11:45:17 hmm, he's left 11:49:23 ais523: I have a message to you from cpressey 11:49:34 what is it? 11:49:44 2010-06-07 23:30:56 ( cpressey) I come to announce Burro 2.0: http://catseye.tc/projects/burro/doc/burro.html 11:49:47 2010-06-07 23:34:37 ( cpressey) Well, if you see him before I do, let him know that his offhand observation that Burro was broken, resulted in months of work for me fixing it :) 11:49:50 2010-06-07 23:34:52 ( cpressey) Not actual full months -- spare-time-months, of course 11:49:56 "him" being you 11:49:56 ah, aha 11:50:08 cpressey: sorry 11:50:35 What was the observation? 11:50:53 that two of the commands weren't actually reverses, or something like that 11:51:02 Alright 11:51:45 ah, it was that {} didn't have an inverse 11:51:51 as mentioned in what that link probably was 11:52:00 (just because I filter links doesn't mean I can't navigate the Cat's Eye website...) 11:52:01 Oh, that link does actually state it 11:52:26 I managed to stop before getting that far 11:52:50 hmm, done with typical cpressey thoroughness, I like reading his work 11:52:54 or her, I suppose 11:53:02 you can't even deduce the gender from the name in that case 11:56:33 "Concatenation of instructions is defined as composition of functions" 11:56:37 he's even made it concatenative! 11:56:44 although it doesn't seem to use typical concatenative control flow 11:59:03 hmm, I wonder what sort of category is implied by the group of Burro programs? 12:03:13 ais523: you need to ping me otherwise i odnt know you're talking to me. 12:03:14 or are you. 12:03:21 I wasn't 12:03:44 I was mostly talking to cpressey in the abstract, even though he wasn't here 12:03:50 and to the channel in general 12:04:29 also, that documentation gives me a worrying thought that Markdown might have been invented /just/ to work with >-style literate Haskell 12:05:34 ok. 12:05:40 hard to know! 12:40:07 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:49:57 -!- oktolol has joined. 13:04:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:12:41 also, that documentation gives me a worrying thought that Markdown might have been invented /just/ to work with >-style literate Haskell 13:13:33 i think the > style literate programming was invented before haskell. also it's email/usenet quoting. 13:15:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:16:12 -!- oktolol has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:21:33 -!- oktolol has joined. 13:26:12 I AM THE QUEEN OF FRANCE. 13:27:55 OFF WITH HER HEAD! 13:28:11 (that's what the french do with their queens, right?) 13:34:06 oerjan, I liked d&d annotation today 13:34:29 * oerjan hasn't got to that tab yet 13:34:42 OFF WITH HER HEAD! <-- I think that quote is from Alice in Wonderland though 13:34:52 was a while ago I read it, so I could be wrong 13:34:58 probably 13:36:53 hm I just realised a nice way to measure ambient temperature if you don't have any thermometer handy is to wake a laptop from s2ram and check harddrive temperature right away 13:37:15 of course it needs to have been suspended for long enough for the harddrive to cool to ambient temperature for this to work 13:37:41 * AnMaster just unsuspended his laptop and according to that measurement indoor temp is ~23 C 13:38:29 * oerjan wonders if Bernard is cockney rhyming slang, and what it means 13:38:40 (i failed to google it) 13:39:35 * oerjan tries harder 13:41:43 so it is, but it doesn't fit the comic 13:45:09 -!- oktolol has quit. 13:52:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:54:03 -!- relet has joined. 13:59:40 hmmm... does Haskell have a set typeclass? 13:59:51 built-in and all. 14:01:15 CakeProphet: not really. 14:01:20 ...should. 14:01:38 so you could define the set operators for a type... and not the implementation. 14:02:45 CakeProphet: it would have to be multiparameter, which is already an extension... 14:02:58 (set _and_ contained type) 14:03:15 there's probably a package somewhere 14:05:48 AnMaster: "Seriously, that last one is no fun whatsoever." indeed 14:07:21 (where somewhere = hackage, naturally) 14:23:37 \o/ 14:23:38 | 14:23:38 /| 14:33:41 why are 3D editing so awkward I wonder. I mean stuff like 3D modellers, 3D cad programs and so on. They are use awkward to use and the camera controls for the perspective view is usually awkward. And if you realise you need to add something that isn't on what is currently the "outside" of the model, things are really awkward... 14:34:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:35:07 hm, I think the current user interaction system for those (and it is pretty similar for all 3D editors, just some small differences like which mouse button does what in the perspective view and so on...) needs some major rethinking. Not that I have any idea for a better UI that would work with a normal mouse 14:35:17 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 14:36:01 some 3D positioning glove or such would probably work rather well, but would on the other hand be fairly impractical for people who don't do 3D editing professionally... 14:52:26 two words: matrix jack 14:52:34 the human brain is the best UI. 14:54:43 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:55:39 and they're easy to make. Just a) figure out, in detail, a consistent and unique pattern that the state of the human brain for a given thought. b) create a computerized implant that can not only poll the brain for these impulses but recognize them as specific thoughts c) ???? d) PROFIT 15:02:39 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:03:26 Just got a new buzzword: program-oriented programming 15:03:34 POP... that's catchy. 15:04:24 #esoteric should deploy POP as an abstract business solution for concerned markets. 15:05:56 In POP everything is a program. This program-oriented environment allows programs to reason about the programs that program what they're programming. Even integers are programs. 15:07:00 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:17:06 -!- relet has joined. 15:17:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:18:37 Subject-Oriented Programming is an object-oriented software paradigm in which the state (fields) and behavior (methods) of objects are not seen as intrinsic to the objects themselves, but are provided by various subjective perceptions (“subjects”) of the objects. 15:18:42 ....lolwat 15:26:27 Sounds reasonable. If you want to split that string, better bring your own axe. 15:29:10 CakeProphet: Unlambda, Underload 15:31:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 15:34:18 so 15:34:28 referring to your POP concept 15:34:29 as it turns out there's a lot of pedantic dickfaces who program 15:34:36 and that doesn't surprise me at all 15:34:47 and it seems a lot of them enjoy programming language IRC channels. 15:34:53 many good programmers, and probably many bad ones too, are very pedantic 15:35:06 a large number of programmers use the Internet, which has an unusually high proportion of dickfaces 15:35:15 and it would therefore be surprising if there wasn't a large overlap 15:35:41 you could probably write what you just said in Prolog. 15:36:24 yes, but why would you? 15:36:28 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:37:46 ais523: well the motivation was never a consideration. :P 15:38:03 fair enough 15:38:19 in #esoteric, "why not?" is a good enough reason for many programming-related tasks 15:38:22 although probably not all of them 15:39:12 yes, only if they are esoteric. 15:39:17 otherwise there must be reasons. 15:40:17 I wonder how you could make person-oriented programming. 15:40:56 "XMLParser and BusinessLogicManager perform a handshake and eat at a nice thai restaurant." 15:44:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:44:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Changing host). 15:44:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:45:26 hmm, new page: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tubes 15:45:41 horrifically formatted and hard to read, but it seems like a legit attempt to make an esolang 15:48:43 the cabal will deliberate on who to sacrifice in exchange for an esolang page. 15:48:47 * CakeProphet summons the cabal. 15:49:24 Hi, my name's cpressey and I'll be your cabal today. Can I interest you in the collusion soup? 15:50:17 ... 15:50:38 I made an (unimplemented) language that looks similar to Tubes. 15:51:16 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BugSophia 16:28:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:28:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:34:13 wait, what happened to the topic? 16:34:56 -!- ais523 has set topic: the international hub for esoteric programming language development and deployment | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:35:16 hmm, I think I probably screwed the topic up somewhere 16:44:25 -!- MizardX has joined. 16:48:54 -!- CakeProphet has set topic: Guess I got my swagga' back.. 16:49:18 ... 16:52:15 CakeProphet: you need to at least put the log link in 16:52:18 freenode rules 16:52:25 and that's a ridiculous topic 16:53:37 -!- CakeProphet has set topic: Guess I got my swagga' back | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:53:43 :3 16:54:08 Sorry. I've been listening to some quality dubstep so I feel a little dirty. 16:57:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:09:18 -!- tombom has joined. 17:35:37 -!- MizardX- has joined. 17:38:23 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 17:38:37 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 17:42:08 -!- Nikobal has joined. 17:42:15 hi there!! 17:43:51 Nikobal: Hi... Got any ideas for new esolangs? :-> 17:44:39 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:49:32 Ilari_antrcomp, what are eso-langs? 17:49:59 Nikobal: Esoteric programming languages (the topic of this channel). 17:52:38 uhm 17:52:45 i am new here 17:53:04 Nikobal: Doing things the sane way in them is not a requirement (in fact, it should be avoided). :-> 17:53:08 and wana get a channel about esoteric, not a programming language 17:53:19 but 17:53:23 i wana start python some time 17:53:36 -!- cheater99 has joined. 17:53:38 Nikobal: Its not one programming language, it is whole group of them... 17:54:12 ye, so brainfuck like stuff 17:54:28 but i am here with focus on esoteric, this is way older then computers. 17:54:43 But brainfuck et al are so much more enlightening :) 18:04:13 has alize made it to the news yet 18:05:39 -!- Nikobal has quit (Quit: Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-). 18:09:21 -!- Vegabondmx has joined. 18:09:22 -!- Vegabondmx has quit (Changing host). 18:09:22 -!- Vegabondmx has joined. 18:12:51 cheater99: Uh oh, has there been more drama recently? 18:15:14 she's 'separated' 18:15:29 or hm 18:15:35 is it 'isolated'? 18:16:13 cheater99: "he" 18:17:08 i think the nick wouldn't be alize if alize didn't secretly want to be called 'she' 18:17:16 didn't she say that she wanted to see that happen 18:17:55 ... 18:18:35 cheater99: You mean, she's stuck offline again? 18:18:45 yeah 18:20:51 -!- asiekierka has joined. 18:20:55 hi 18:21:03 i have been attempting to design an esolang... again 18:21:03 cpressey: i just hope alize makes it through the week ok 18:21:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:21:10 and its unlike dobela 18:21:18 asiekierka, welcome to the ESO language support channel 18:21:24 What ho, asiekierka! 18:21:30 it has 17 commands 18:21:34 including NOP (space) 18:21:39 so it has 16 actual commands 18:21:44 first, it's 2D 18:21:50 and the concept evolves around binary and a stack 18:21:55 as in you can input either 0 or 1 to the stack 18:22:02 so the stack could be "1,0,1,1,0,0,1" 18:22:15 now, i'll continue in a few mins 18:22:18 -!- asiekierka has changed nick to asie[brb]. 18:22:51 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 18:25:47 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:28:50 back 18:28:51 -!- asie[brb] has changed nick to asiekierka. 18:29:03 so our stack looks like "1,0,1,1,0,0,1" 18:29:05 left being top 18:29:07 right being botton 18:29:09 bottom* 18:29:13 now, there's a JOIN command, "=" 18:29:20 executing it on our stack will make it 18:29:25 "10,1,1,0,0,1" 18:29:32 effectively turning the 2 binary digits into a binary number 18:29:34 running it again gives 18:29:39 "101,1,0,0,1" 18:29:54 of course, we might not want such a mode, so we use the SPLIT "#" command 18:29:57 running it on this gives 18:30:01 "1,0,1,1,0,0,1" 18:30:23 there's also a way to swap the two topmost elements of the stack 18:30:27 "@" 18:30:31 "0,1,1,1,0,0,1" 18:30:41 BUT what if we want to get to the FIFTH part and not the second? 18:30:43 Don't worry 18:30:44 this will do it 18:30:49 on "1,0,1,1,0,0,1" 18:30:57 ===@ 18:31:00 the 3 join's will do 18:31:03 "1011,0,0,1" 18:31:05 then the swap does 18:31:08 "0,1011,0,1" 18:31:13 voila! we have accessed what we wanted 18:31:18 to go back we just have to do @# 18:31:42 we also have other commands 18:31:51 like X - remove from stack (result: "0,1,1,0,0,1") 18:32:01 ^ - XOR (result: 1,1,1,0,0,1) 18:32:18 $ - terminate (result: C:\_ for you MS-DOSers, and something else for you Unixers) 18:32:30 ! - perform a NOT (result: 0,0,1,1,0,0,1) 18:32:42 ? - skips the next command if the binary value is nonzero 18:32:47 (the result being it does skip it) 18:32:54 > - outputs, modulo 256 18:32:58 < - inputs into the stack 18:33:13 and / \ - rotates the IP left or right, respectively 18:33:19 and finally: 18:33:23 + - adds the 2 binary numbers 18:33:37 - - subtracts the 2 binary numbers (if the result is <0, it's kept as 0) 18:33:42 this is all so far 18:33:47 any quest---wait... 18:33:49 did anyone listen? 18:35:15 AND is essentially =- 18:35:26 OR is, uh... 18:36:10 oh right, new command 18:36:15 % - clone current binary value 18:36:28 so we have (1,0) 18:36:41 now, we have 18:37:19 asiekierka: the "something else for you Unixers" is probably a $, actually 18:37:23 haha 18:37:27 lol 18:37:29 well 18:37:32 im thinking how to pull off an OR 18:37:33 at least 18:37:40 the default bash prompt ends in $ 18:38:01 actually 18:38:08 i want to replace ? (abused in so many 2D esolangs) 18:38:14 to [...] - BF equalivment 18:40:22 =[1@X] 18:40:34 here you go, an OR implemented in an as-of-yet unnamed language 18:43:02 actually, i've realized i dont need [...] in 2D 18:43:04 so we stay at ? 18:43:22 and my friend kindly made a 1D OR working for that 18:43:25 =?1?@?X 18:44:43 my friend is now going to make a hello world 18:45:28 how does that OR work? 18:45:33 oh, heh 18:45:40 let's see at the example of a (1,0) stack 18:45:43 it first joins it to make 10 18:45:44 Interesting observation: We can think of [...] as a way to extend 1D into ~1.5D (consider the added stack to be something close to "half a dimension"), precisely because 1 dimension isn't enough to be Turing-complete. 18:45:56 if it's non-zero, it inputs 1 18:45:59 so it's (1,10) 18:46:03 now it swaps if it's nonzero 18:46:05 so it's (10,1) 18:46:07 then it deletes the 10 18:46:09 giving (1) 18:46:13 :) 18:46:21 another example, (1,1) 18:46:35 (1,1) -> (11) -> (1,11) -> (11,1) -> (1) 18:46:45 it is a 1-bit OR, though 18:46:49 but whatever 18:46:55 the XOR and NOT are not 1-bit though 18:47:39 to make a more than 1-bit OR would require a lot of tinkering 18:47:46 by storing those 18:48:16 (10,01) -> (11) 18:49:37 i might add extra AND/OR commands because of that, tho 18:49:50 and get rid of NOT 18:49:55 hmm... 18:49:57 why? 18:50:02 why? 18:50:09 because, if you have (100) to NOT 18:50:12 you can just do 18:50:15 why get rid of not? 18:50:19 111==- 18:50:26 as in 18:50:32 (100) -> (111,100) -> (011) 18:50:35 you can easily emulate it 18:50:40 without a proper command 18:51:04 i guess i don't understand esolang design, then 18:51:19 well you can just do it without a command on it's own 18:51:29 and my esolang goal is to never make commands that can be done with other commands 18:51:45 it kinda takes "if there's a way to do a command without using it, then don't include it" to the hardcore extreme 18:51:55 but there's a SIMPLE way 18:51:56 to do that 18:52:02 if it took like 101 commands 18:52:04 i would include it 18:52:19 but if it only takes (bits*2) commands to do that? 18:52:28 as in for a 5-bit value it takes 5*2 commands 18:52:51 sounds like the reason why complex.h doesn't have the cis function 18:53:17 Isn't that just exp(i*x)? 18:53:17 AND, OR and XOR can be emulated with other commands but only for 1 bit 18:53:29 other than that it's pretty hard 18:53:34 but that might show a weakness 18:53:38 Ilari_antrcomp: or cos(x) + I*sin(x) 18:53:43 for values bigger than 1 bit it's hard to do MUCH operations between tem 18:53:49 between them* 18:54:05 i believe that might warrant one more command 18:54:09 ) - rotates the stack 18:54:15 as in the topmost item gets pushed to the very bottom 18:54:22 nice 18:54:37 i like that without the opposite instruction 18:54:42 the opposite can be done 18:54:50 wait, it can't 18:54:52 but is it needed? 18:54:54 nope 18:55:01 see? 18:55:03 haha 18:55:06 i do (kinda) get it 18:55:35 im thinking how to do ( 18:55:41 easier than typing )))))))))))))))))) 18:55:51 also we don't know the stack size 18:56:37 i was thinking 18:56:40 i could do a command, "S" 18:56:50 S - output the current stack size to the stack 18:57:26 and i've realized 18:57:29 with the addition of ) 18:57:35 you can in theory move any value anywhere 18:57:42 you can use join to get to the 5th value 18:57:44 swap them 18:57:47 use ) 18:57:52 and then split the joined one 18:57:57 to get the 5th value to the bottom 18:58:04 then join to get to the 4th value 18:58:20 swa---wait 18:58:31 that's it, i add in ( as it is in fact needed 18:58:41 if i was really evil 18:58:47 i wouldnt include right rotation 18:58:50 as that's an opposite 18:58:59 so you join to get to the 4th value 18:59:04 do ( 18:59:06 swap, 18:59:08 and split 18:59:14 to move the 5th value to the 4th 19:00:01 that makes it 19 commands 19:00:37 example mover: moves 3rd value to 2nd 19:01:22 =@)#(@ 19:01:51 if not for the lack of an = at the end 19:02:03 we'd have a code palindrome... or something 19:07:48 now i wonder 19:07:56 IS IT TURING COMPLEETED 19:43:04 -!- jamesstanley has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:50:01 asiekierka: I don't think I saw anything that would serve as an "if", but I wasn't paying full attention 19:56:26 cute, a self-modifying sieve of Eratosthenes: http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/2008/05/prolog-chr-prime-seive-one-liner.html 19:56:35 * cpressey wonders where fax is these days 19:57:05 heh 19:57:12 i found out about the CARDIAC paper computer 19:59:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:00:02 Why is CakeProphet's swagga' so important? 20:00:41 Several theorems rely on it 20:00:59 Oh, such as? 20:02:07 * cpressey points to one such theorem as it drifts past 20:05:00 What is CakeProphet's swagga'? 20:07:48 That's a good question. 20:07:58 Probably best answered by CakeProphet. 20:09:20 well. 20:09:31 it is a crunk form of locomotion often attributed to gangsters such as myself. 20:11:27 It's a distinctly American ideal. 20:11:35 * CakeProphet is all-American. 20:16:12 How does it pertain to mathematics? 20:16:44 Also, I thought all-American accents were rhotic? 20:18:32 ha. Depends on how fast you're speaking 20:19:02 and... doesn't everything pertain to mathematics? At least, that's what my mathematics professors always tell me. 20:19:29 I mean, the alternative is that they were all just arrogant pricks. 20:19:34 ...and that can't be right. 20:22:59 Everything is mathematics. 20:23:05 Except swagga's. 20:23:27 (If anything, "swagga'" is all-Australian) 20:23:58 I thought that was "swagman". Specifically of the "jolly" variety. 20:25:49 No, just in terms of rhoticity. 20:25:59 -!- Adrian^L_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:33:51 Phantom_Hoover: I would also stipulate that everyone is /not/ our current understanding of mathematics. 20:33:56 which is a point that some people seem to gloss over. 20:34:36 ...meaning that most systems can be modelled mathematically, but we do not necessarily have the knowledge or endurance to do the modelling. 20:34:43 Of course. 20:35:25 also. here is where I found my swagga': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpAePSP-ni4 20:35:41 though you might be offended by my musical tastes. 20:36:05 I have my speakers turned off. 20:36:09 ha. 20:36:23 well, if you click on the link 20:36:47 you'll see some nice album art, a moving slider, and some intelligent commentary. 20:43:46 One of those was present. 20:44:02 ha. 20:44:08 such wit. 20:44:18 well, /some/ album art. That's two. 20:45:01 You explicitly said "nice". 20:46:08 nice in the sense that it was courteous of the submitter to include an image to look at as you watch the slider move. 20:47:13 Anyways. I'm going to go play a game of Risk. I will likely not return for several days. 20:47:26 but actually it'll be like 3 hours or something. 20:47:36 Farewell. 20:48:55 Hmm, we hate Java here. But what else do we hate? 20:48:59 C++? 20:49:02 C#? 20:49:08 ...I actually like all of those languages... 20:49:58 well... 20:50:03 if I had to pick I would say Java. 20:50:20 Because it basically is just C# without any of the good features. 20:50:30 but they're all fine. 20:50:40 Haskell seems to be popular... 20:51:10 yes. 20:51:35 some of us like Lisp as well 20:51:39 * CakeProphet is now gone. 20:54:50 Some of us hate Python... 20:55:01 Well, "hate" is too strong a word. 20:55:05 I feel sorry for Python. 21:07:42 I dont like Pyhon 21:07:43 Python* 21:07:47 i just dont like the syntax 21:07:54 sadly, nobody understands me 21:08:11 -!- jabb has joined. 21:09:09 I quite like Python. 21:09:40 When I'm bored and don't want to search through reams of documentation to do things. 21:12:33 I use 6502 ASM for that 21:12:37 a bit more 21:12:41 and i'll have it memorized 21:12:53 ... 21:14:08 I've been doing a fair amount of C64/VIC20 coding lately, and I almost have it memorized. Except for BIT of course. 21:21:18 I don't mind Java, per se, for the most part. The world that most Java coders inhabit, on the other hand... 21:28:07 BIT? 21:31:13 http://www.obelisk.demon.co.uk/6502/reference.html#BIT 21:31:27 Who can remember all that? ;) 21:31:51 -!- Oranjer has joined. 21:32:23 Maybe if I was really into testing what bits 6 and 7 are, I would care enough to... 21:48:48 -!- asiekierka has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:56:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:02:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:04:29 oerjan! 22:05:04 Ectoplasm_Scooper! 22:05:59 You'll run out eventually. 22:06:20 hint: The Ghost that Sucks 22:06:20 that was my thought too, just before writing that 22:06:44 Oranjer: i think i did that before 22:07:00 oh 22:07:35 For what its for, I've never really needed the N and V flag-settings of BIT, and it's reasonably easy to remember the "main" functionality of it (and A and memory, throw away the result but set zero flag accordingly). 22:09:10 So BIT is to AND as CMP is to SBC (roughly)? 22:15:04 it kinda takes "if there's a way to do a command without using it, then don't include it" to the hardcore extreme 22:15:12 that's almost what "tarpit" means 22:15:28 imo 22:16:15 (you will note our wiki has a specific category for Turing Tarpits (tarpits that are turing complete) 22:16:18 ) 22:16:57 A set of features of X is minimal for Y if removing any one of those features from X results in something that's no longer Y 22:18:00 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:15 * cpressey wonders where fax is these days <-- i banned her a while ago, after she went completely ballistic. 22:21:17 only for a few days though, but she hasn't shown up since afaik 22:21:52 Oh great, more eso drama. 22:22:33 Her last blog entry was March 29, so I was wondering. 22:22:35 i don't recall that much drama otherwise, other than alise's and AnMaster's semi-friendly bitching 22:22:39 oh 22:23:02 not that it's a really frequently-updated blog 22:23:20 was it a mathematically-oriented ballistic? :) 22:23:30 hm i _think_ it was later than that, i'm not quite sure 22:23:43 not really 22:23:54 there's was a previous one that sort of was, iirc 22:25:10 anyway, she took a joke as a completely serious insult, an spammed a wall of "fuck you"s back 22:25:16 *and 22:26:15 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 22:26:35 o_O 22:26:41 * Rugxulo sees a ghost 22:27:17 Rugxulo: it's a pretty sucky ghost. unless you see someone other than i do 22:27:31 cpressey ^_^ 22:27:47 cpressey is no ghost. afaik. 22:28:14 ain't heard from him yet, so ... 22:28:27 (neither is he sucky, just to be clear) 22:29:30 Hey, I'm not dead *yet*. 22:29:36 ;-) 22:30:06 just so you know, I wrote Rexx and Pascal interpreters for B93, also hacked up a DOS assembly one (not yours) to be 982 bytes 22:30:31 Rexx. Very nice. 22:30:37 but it's not as impressive as AnMaster (CFunge) and Deewiant (CCBI) 22:30:55 oops, should've said dual Borland-ish / ISO 7185 (compiles in both without changes) 22:31:08 although there's no built-in random in ISO 7185 22:31:20 but it just ignores that ;-) 22:32:36 anyways, I posted them to comp.lang.rexx and comp.lang.pascal.{borland,ansi-iso}, respectively 22:32:50 not that it really matters, but since you're here anyways ............ 22:34:04 Fax's blog? 22:34:06 Link? 22:34:18 ?? 22:34:19 I need to go, but I'll logread tomorrow. 22:34:25 Far above. 22:34:36 Phantom_Hoover: http://muaddibspace.blogspot.com/ 22:38:09 "now stop worrying and enjoy your life" ... yeah, that was worth putting up a billboard for :-P 22:40:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:42:24 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:43:37 anyways 22:55:02 cpressey: there are also assembly B93 interpreters for Win32 and {Open-,NetBSD} on FASM's forum, though I didn't write 'em ;-) 22:55:21 though for some odd reason (terminal comfortability???) the *BSD dude used 41x25 :-/ 22:55:59 FreePascal 2.4.0 compiles mine to 30k (static!), UPX halves that 22:56:05 Interesting. You mentioned mine -- befia? Is it still floating around out there somewhere? 22:56:18 on your site??? 22:56:28 It's on my site?? 22:56:36 none of these are based upon that (which, AFAICT, was loosely based upon befos or maybe the C version or both??) 22:56:46 Not anymore. 22:56:51 but if you want the FASM forum link, I can show you 22:57:12 yes, it's on your site, last I checked 22:57:25 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 22:57:33 Well, as long as they pass Mycology, I'm happy. 22:57:37 How long ago did you check? 22:57:41 http://catseye.tc/projects/befos/src/turbo/bf93.tasm 22:57:47 three seconds ;-) 22:57:55 Oh crap, hah. 22:58:14 messagedb'befia v0.90, usage: befia ', 13, 10, '$' 22:58:41 in other words, it doesn't work out-of-the-box (e.g., in DOS, Win32, etc) 22:58:44 Yeah, I guess befia wormed its way into BefOS, even though IIRC it's not used heavily in it. 22:59:01 Used to be its own project on the site -- not anymore. 22:59:06 BTW, just to tell you two very minor details: 22:59:28 Borland is still around (somewhat), but they spun off the development tools / IDEs to CodeGear, which is now owned by Embarcadero 22:59:44 Turbo C++ Explorer 2006 (which never installed correctly for me) was freeware, and it had latest / last TASM32 5.3 22:59:52 but they don't offer it online anymore :-( 23:00:17 oh, and NASM by default aligns data section to four bytes, so you have to say "section .data align=1" if you want to avoid that (whereas you just ignored that directive altogether for same effect) 23:00:47 Oh, right. I converted all my TASM sources of note to NASM. Except befia. But it still lives in the old TASM directory of BefOS. 23:01:01 I remember running into some damn alignment issue when converting Shelta to NASM. 23:01:15 right, I saw you mention somewhere in there 23:01:28 I would've e-mailed you, but I couldn't find one, so I guess you didn't want to be bothered 23:01:52 * Rugxulo only learned Befunge93 since around September of last year, so ... 23:02:15 It's on my site if you look hard enough. 23:02:56 well it's moot now ;-) 23:09:33 -!- Rugxulo` has joined. 23:09:59 bah, now I'm the ghost! :-P 23:11:54 Rugxulo: *shakes fist* 23:11:56 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:13:11 -!- Rugxulo` has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:19:11 -!- kar8nga has joined. 23:23:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:32:26 -!- calamari has joined. 23:43:28 -!- MizardX- has joined. 23:43:52 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:43:56 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 23:52:25 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:53:48 -!- cpressey has left (?).