←2010-06-12 2010-06-13 2010-06-14→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:41 <Sgeo_> Hm, 850 results
00:01:02 <Sgeo_> Are there any APIs for programmatically searching through the web archive?
00:01:59 <Sgeo_> "With Avatar now in Post Production,"
00:02:02 <Sgeo_> BULLSHIT
00:02:08 <Sgeo_> [Not the Cameron Avatar]
00:02:14 <Sgeo_> [Nor the Airbending one]
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00:12:04 <CakeProphet> hmmm... actually.
00:12:11 <CakeProphet> gen_fsm might make for a good object proces
00:12:16 <CakeProphet> MUD object, that is
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00:36:12 <alise> CakeProphet: so basically everything in the mud is an asynchronous message-passing finite state machine?
00:36:24 <alise> Including inert pieces of information? Sounds to me like you've implemented STUFF.
00:40:57 <oerjan> alise: no no, basically everything in the mud is touched by his noodly appendages!
00:41:18 <alise> Sexy.
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01:12:56 <CakeProphet> alise: No I'm not really implementing STUFF... that's just how Erlang works in the first place.
01:13:25 <alise> Right, but in MOOs /everything/ would be one of those processes, in Erlang you have other-stuff too.
01:13:34 <alise> Just saying... even your data is STUFF.
01:14:01 <CakeProphet> ...I guess?
01:14:14 <CakeProphet> It's all rather arbitrary.
01:14:42 <CakeProphet> but I wouldn't really say it's unified. Not everything is going to be gen_fsm
01:15:15 <CakeProphet> specifically the MUD data.
01:15:22 <CakeProphet> would be finite state machines.
01:15:27 <Sgeo> Hm
01:15:36 <Sgeo> http://oddessey.org/
01:15:59 <Sgeo> Lie, or really long wait and suspiciously unupdated copyright notice?
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01:20:23 <CakeProphet> Erlang's documentation is really confusing.
01:22:32 <Gregor> Sgeo: "The Project LLC"
01:22:33 <Gregor> lawl
01:23:23 <Sgeo> Why does everything associated in any way with Blaxxun appear to be lietastic?
01:23:41 <Sgeo> Oddessey, Cytonia's Avatar, The CVN claiming that Blaxxun was A-OK
01:25:05 <Sgeo> Oh, and I don't rememeber if Hawk ever stated that Cybertown would never be a mandatory-subscription service, but if he did, that was a lie
01:25:33 <Sgeo> I remember seeing a proposal for optional subscription
01:28:13 <Sgeo> Hm, this person is IVN's representative in Cybertown
01:28:18 <Sgeo> I almost want to leave hatemail
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01:30:46 <Sgeo> Another IVN lie: Silhouette. Some thing that would allow video broadcast into Cybertown's 3d world.
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01:46:46 <pikhq> Gah, I'm looking at Oleg's site again.
01:46:54 <pikhq> I may soon feel inferior.
01:47:02 <alise> You didn't feel inferior from the first page?
01:47:07 <alise> Your ego is too big!
01:47:22 <pikhq> The first page is a mere index.
01:47:32 <pikhq> Not quite enough to cue a full inferiority complex.
01:47:37 <alise> Well, half then.
01:47:41 <alise> Second page should seal it.
01:47:47 <pikhq> Click any one of those links, though, and it's sealed.
01:48:44 <alise> Even the email link.
01:48:55 <pikhq> Yes, even that. Somehow. :P
01:49:12 <alise> You realise that whatever you typed it'd seem amateurish.
01:49:45 <alise> EVEN http://okmij.org/ftp/Venus.html
01:50:12 <alise> Hmm, there actually is no email link
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01:52:37 * oerjan never thought he'd laugh at a picture of Angela Merkel http://i.imgur.com/GsC20.png
01:52:57 <oerjan> (well technically several pictures)
01:53:03 <CakeProphet> hmmmm
01:53:21 <CakeProphet> I bet I could construct appup files for Erlang using information from version control.
01:53:56 <CakeProphet> since, in simple cases, you're just specifying which modules to reload, add, and remove.
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02:13:17 * Sgeo tends to feel inferior to everyone here
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02:43:22 <alise> i'm just reading oleg randomly
02:43:26 <alise> it's like a random walk in awesome
02:43:32 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: por que?
02:44:06 <CakeProphet> it probably just means you're not as full of yourself as some of us.
02:45:50 <alise> well, there are certainly some pretty awesome people in here
02:46:09 <alise> not all of us win £25,000 prizes for proving an unsolved problem in CS (even if it's one only wolfram cares about)
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02:52:28 <alise> If that succeeds, and if you can afford to consume perhaps several days of
02:52:28 <alise> cpu time and over a hundred megabytes of disk space, try
02:52:28 <alise> make giant-test
02:55:34 <Gregor> Sounds like a pretty giant test.
03:03:12 <alise> IN 1992!
03:03:15 <alise> :P
03:04:13 <alise> > (compile-nqthm) ; takes a few minutes on a contemporary workstation
03:04:13 <alise> ; compilation finished in 0:00:00.215
03:05:06 <bsmntbombdood> ...
03:05:34 <alise> ... howso
03:05:52 <bsmntbombdood> obsessing about how much faster it is gets old
03:06:49 <alise> not obsessing
03:06:50 <alise> just amused
03:07:16 <alise> a few minutes on a good workstation to less than a third of a second on a low-end machine is pretty good for 18 years
03:07:26 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: well he has to use up the time he saved, somehow...
03:08:10 <Sgeo> alise, linky?
03:08:42 <alise> ftp://ftp.cs.utexas.edu/pub/boyer/nqthm/index.html
03:08:53 <alise> it's the boyer-moore prover that automatically proved e.g. goedel's incompleteness theorem
03:09:10 <alise> well i guess not totally automatically
03:09:32 <Sgeo> I thought it was proved without computer?
03:11:18 <alise> duh
03:11:30 <alise> that doesn't mean it can't be proved again
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03:14:41 <alise> A quite long-winded proof that a*b = b*a:
03:14:42 <alise> http://pastie.org/1002224.txt?key=vht0kabp2wpqpkjyzcwspg
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03:23:25 <Sgeo> alise, do you ever feel nostalgic?
03:23:56 * Sgeo needs some advice
03:24:19 <CakeProphet> :o
03:24:20 <alise> What advice?
03:24:29 <CakeProphet> are you sure you want advice from alise?
03:24:41 <oerjan> i remember feeling nostalgic once. good times.
03:25:00 <Sgeo> As you know, I'm working on a remake of a game. I'm worried that certain differences might be like giving the nostaligic persons the middle finger
03:25:29 <Sgeo> So far, for me, the most nostalgic-inducing place is the Altar, which has music that's similar, but not the same, as the original
03:25:33 <Sgeo> Thigns like that
03:25:40 <Sgeo> And that that game had magic, this one doesn't
03:25:50 <Sgeo> Things will be in different locations, etc.
03:26:01 <alise> my advice is that you have serious issues with nostalgia
03:26:04 <alise> also that it doesn't matter at all
03:26:05 <Sgeo> I can't really make a judgement, because I've spend a portion of time in this new place
03:26:15 <alise> and you're probably the only person who would take disruption of nostalgia as a middle finger
03:27:07 <Sgeo> Hm. I guess when the alpha opens to the public, we'll find out
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03:29:01 <Sgeo> At the very least, this portion of the game seems to satisfy my nostalgic cravings, despite the music and appearance being different
03:29:07 <Sgeo> The ground's the same snow white
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03:46:10 <alise> pikhq: why doesn't oleg suck at even one thing?
03:48:51 <Sgeo> What's Oleg's website?
03:48:55 <alise> http://okmij.org/ftp/
03:49:06 <alise> Note how the site contains FUCKING EVERYTHING.
03:50:37 <alise> there's everything from xml libraries in scheme to stuff about theorem proving to mathematics to type system hackery to c++ stuff to unix pipes to fixed-point combinators to using sendmail as a turing machine to ...
03:50:42 <alise> ... operating systems to ...
03:55:36 <alise> I wonder what Scheme Oleg uses.
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04:16:10 <alise> 4:15; ho hum.
04:16:12 <alise> sleep soon, presumably.
04:18:39 * alise yawns
04:24:17 <alise> I would have thought Sgeo would be with the pitchforks to get me to sleep.
04:26:08 <Sgeo> Was AFK
04:26:21 <Sgeo> Also, I kind of didn't go to sleep last night >.>
04:26:26 <Sgeo> Going to go to sleep early tonight
04:26:28 <Sgeo> Already ate
04:26:47 <Sgeo> Also, go to sleep! Don't turn into me! Although you're kind of worse than I am
04:27:02 <Sgeo> Is your computer in your room? Move it elsewhere?
04:27:08 <alise> No! I like it in my room :|
04:27:11 <alise> And meh, it's only 4:26.
04:27:16 <alise> I can get up late tomorrow, right?
04:28:21 <Sgeo> Idea: Either set an earlier time for yourself to go to sleep, or move the computer out of your room
04:28:45 <Sgeo> How much do you really get done when you know you should be sleeping?
04:29:17 <Sgeo> Moving wakeful time earlier, to when you should be awake, gives you time where you'll allow yourself to do stuff that takes time
04:29:52 <Sgeo> It was kind of dizzying today when I was up at 6AM and had the whole day ahead of me
04:31:41 <Sgeo> I made a rule for myself for today: No coding after dinner
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04:36:10 <alise> > (words (read-line))
04:36:10 <alise> Take the lamp.
04:36:10 <alise> '("take" "lamp")
04:36:11 <alise> yay
04:36:24 * alise makes them symbols for easier comparison
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04:37:37 <alise> > (words "Take the lamp.")
04:37:38 <alise> '(Take lamp)
04:37:42 <alise> (Take will compare equal with take)
04:38:10 <alise> oh, or not
04:39:03 <alise> > (words "Take the lamp.")
04:39:03 <alise> '(take lamp)
04:39:04 <alise> there
04:42:13 <alise> Sgeo: gimme some junk words to disregard in an adventure game's commands apart from "the"
04:42:44 <Sgeo> that
04:42:50 <Sgeo> this
04:42:58 <Sgeo> Or you could pay attention to those, I guess
04:43:08 <Sgeo> But that would be an .. interesting thing to force on the user
04:43:32 <Sgeo> Although I guess "There is a blue lamp here. There is a gold lamp far away" "> take this lamp"
04:43:40 <Sgeo> Not forcing, and yet still useful
04:43:57 <alise> should I have "A and B" split into A \n B?
04:43:58 <alise> I think not
04:44:02 <alise> you never know what A might do
04:47:15 <alise> 1> (words "Kill that rabbit")
04:47:16 <alise> '(kill rabbit)
04:47:16 <alise> 1> (words "Take rabbit's lamp")
04:47:16 <alise> '(take rabbit s lamp)
04:48:15 <oerjan> eviscerate lagomorph
04:50:44 * Sgeo wants to take a nap. It's almost midnight
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04:50:53 <alise> it's 4:50
04:50:56 <alise> oh god it is daylight
04:50:59 <alise> help
04:51:30 <Sgeo> alise, move computer out of room
04:51:39 <Sgeo> I may have to do that, I'm trying to avoid needing to do that
04:52:36 <alise> to where?
04:52:40 <alise> and no, i value my privacy. also my computer
04:55:54 <Sgeo> So to avoid needing to do that, force yourself to go to sleep sooner
04:55:58 <Sgeo> I'm going to sleep soon
04:56:10 <alise> http://pastie.org/1002281.txt?key=f74rclssjuwkkqytvfkx6g Some hypothetical adventure code. Really, it should have a notion of objects in a room...
04:58:53 * Sgeo is tired
04:59:07 * Sgeo hopes he didn't give himself cancer by not sleeping last night
04:59:16 <alise> you gave yourself cancer.
05:01:06 <alise> well friends, soon would be a good time to bed
05:01:26 <Sgeo> Night alise
05:01:45 <oerjan> good night alise
05:01:51 <alise> not right now!
05:01:52 <alise> just soon
05:01:52 <alise> >_>
05:02:14 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
05:02:20 <oerjan> RIGHT NOW
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05:03:12 <alise> oerjan: like that would stop me
05:03:30 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
05:07:12 <alise> well good night
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05:44:02 <pikhq> Dear God, Rock Band 3 is crazy.
05:44:13 <pikhq> Gregor: They're shipping actual instruments for that game.
05:44:18 <pikhq> *Actual musical instruments*.
05:44:44 <Gregor> How musical
05:45:07 <pikhq> Granted, they're all MIDI instruments (literally; they have MIDI ports), but still.
05:45:44 <oerjan> next up: an FPS shipped with actual weapons
05:45:45 <Gregor> How musical
05:46:52 * oerjan afks again
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06:00:08 <pikhq> The guitar controller is either a 102 button monstrosity... Or a guitar that *happens* to have sensors in the fretboard and MIDI and USB out.
06:06:07 <pineapple> Gregor: there is a 2 octave keyboard coming with it
06:06:29 <pikhq> And an adapter to let you use a real keyboard...
06:06:37 <pikhq> (or any arbitrary MIDI device, really)
06:06:59 <Gregor> So in other words, it's sufficiently musical that the ninnies who play that game will cry.
06:07:11 <Gregor> Also, a two-octave keyboard is a joke.
06:07:38 <pikhq> Just "pro mode". The other modes (which you may now call "noob modes", IMO) are as previously.
06:08:17 <pikhq> The keyboard is a joke, yeah. But the guitar thing... Is an *actual freaking guitar*. And played as such.
06:08:33 <pikhq> It's a fake-instrument type game that I can actually kinda respect.
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06:59:29 <rus_bear> greetings, strangers!
07:00:34 <pikhq> Greetings be unto ye.
07:04:26 <rus_bear> Do you talk about esoteric here? And what is that, what do you think?
07:04:54 <pikhq> Nominally, we discuss esoteric programming languages.
07:05:08 <pikhq> In practice, we discuss just about everything but esotericism.
07:06:31 <rus_bear> what languages are esoteric? It's AMAZING *_*
07:06:46 -!- Gregor has set topic: Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, divine and occult knowledge, esoteric programming languages, ethereal and astral projection, government conspiracies to deny common paranormal events | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
07:07:03 <rus_bear> I know Pascal, C++ and Basic, Are they esoteric?
07:07:05 * oerjan swats Gregor -----###
07:07:10 <Gregor> ^^
07:07:11 <pikhq> Brainfuck, Whitespace, Befunge, INTERCAL...
07:07:13 <rus_bear> =)
07:07:19 <rus_bear> Wow!
07:07:33 <rus_bear> Why are they esoteric?
07:08:32 <pikhq> The primary criteria seems to be being decidedly *odd* and not practical.
07:09:38 <rus_bear> Why do you need them, if they're not practical?
07:09:47 <pikhq> ... Need?
07:09:55 <rus_bear> yep...
07:10:06 <pikhq> Esoteric programming languages are *amusing*.
07:10:20 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
07:10:20 <fungot> Hello World!
07:10:28 <pikhq> The point is not to be needed, but rather to be *interesting*.
07:10:30 <rus_bear> okay, i get it=)
07:10:34 <rus_bear> thanks
07:10:48 <pikhq> Arguably, portions of C++ also fit this criteria.
07:11:06 <pikhq> (see: Boost)
07:11:28 <pikhq> (namely, the source code of Boost; the API presented by Boost isn't quite so esoteric. But there be magic within.)
07:11:42 <rus_bear> I think c++ is practical language, cuz a lot of people use it to write serious apps
07:11:58 <pikhq> In spite of the language, sure.
07:12:44 <rus_bear> c++ is a powerful language, I want to learn Python now...
07:12:54 <pikhq> C++ is an unimplemented language.
07:13:06 * oerjan whispers: haskell haskell haskell
07:13:13 <rus_bear> why&
07:13:14 <rus_bear> ?
07:14:02 <pikhq> C++ has so *much* in the language that it's damned near impossible to even write a *parser* for it, much less a full implementation.
07:15:08 <rus_bear> do you make apps with c++?
07:15:28 <pikhq> Same way one does in any other language; one simply writes code.
07:15:35 <oerjan> pikhq: there was this proof you couldn't parse perl at compile-time, is there something similar for C++?
07:16:06 <pikhq> oerjan: I've not seen such a proof, but this *is* true of C++.
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07:17:13 <pikhq> As determining the actual parse of a possible-declaration depends upon determining if something is a type, and to do that you need to solve the halting problem.
07:17:47 <pikhq> Or actually execute the compile-time lambda calculus. I mean, type system.
07:17:53 <oerjan> hm
07:19:48 <coppro> are we discussing perl?
07:19:58 <pikhq> Primarily C++.
07:20:02 <coppro> oh
07:20:17 * coppro looks at logs
07:20:21 <pikhq> Perl has parse-time Perl, not compile-time lambda calculus. :)
07:21:12 <coppro> ah, yes
07:21:59 <coppro> yeah, C++ is unparseable in the sense that Perl is
07:22:15 <coppro> but for a different reason
07:22:30 <pikhq> Except slightly less so, as there *is* a greater distinction between the compile-time and run-time semantics in C++ than Perl.
07:22:40 <coppro> right
07:23:10 <Gregor> Bah. My GC is faster than Boehm on binary-trees but slower on gcbench.
07:23:13 <pikhq> (the compile-time semantics of C++ have absolutely no side effects, so at least one can perform the parsing *statically*)
07:24:15 <pikhq> If C++ templates had side effects, it'd be nearly impossible to compile.
07:24:37 <pikhq> Hmm. This sounds like a good idea. Anyone got an in with the standards committee? :P
07:24:47 <coppro> I do!
07:24:55 <pikhq> Awesome.
07:25:16 <coppro> and actually, compiling templates do have one side effect, which is that the template is then compiled
07:25:34 <pikhq> Ah, yes. I'm not really considering that much of a side effect, though.
07:25:47 <pikhq> I'm thinking more along the lines of having full IO capabilities.
07:25:51 <coppro> :D
07:25:55 <coppro> you're an evil evil man
07:26:35 <coppro> I think dgregor would fail me in GSOC if I suggested that
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07:28:49 <coppro> oops
07:29:20 <coppro> hmm... ethereal projection, was that in a splatbook?
07:29:49 <pikhq> Almost certainly.
07:30:20 <coppro> true
07:30:31 <coppro> eh, good enough for me!
07:30:31 <oerjan> what's a splatbook
07:31:19 * oerjan performs a google divination
07:31:30 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/splatbook
07:31:43 <pikhq> oerjan: A "splatbook" is a expansion book for an RPG, particularly D&D, particularly a poorly thought-out one.
07:32:01 <oerjan> coppro: that's the same page i'm currently looking at. you're psychic!
07:32:41 <coppro> and the term has evolved to mean what pikhq said
07:33:17 <pikhq> D&D 3.5 has some *really* stupid expansions out there.
07:33:52 <coppro> yeah
07:34:08 <pikhq> Creating ways to achieve nigh-infinite stats from level 3...
07:34:33 <coppro> I think they've got it down to 2
07:34:39 <coppro> or maybe that's just the omniscient one
07:34:49 <pikhq> Down to 1 if you count "Pazuzu Pazuzu Pazuzu".
07:35:05 <coppro> haven't heard that one
07:35:07 * coppro googles
07:35:29 <pikhq> Summon Pazuzu, wish for a candle of wish, IIRC.
07:35:50 <coppro> oh, an infinite wish thing?
07:36:22 <pikhq> Something like that.
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07:40:13 <coppro> lolunrealfail
07:40:36 <oerjan> fiannafail
07:41:15 <coppro> lolo
07:41:21 <coppro> lollolfail
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11:53:03 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> Erlang's documentation is really confusing. <--- is it?
11:53:21 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> I bet I could construct appup files for Erlang using information from version control. <-- cool idea
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14:45:08 <AnMaster> huh, strange file: /etc/init.d/hwclock.sh.dpkg-obsolete
14:49:17 -!- MizardX has joined.
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14:49:22 -!- MizardX has joined.
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15:24:33 <alise> ;l
16:02:07 <alise> heh. [[Doctor Fun]] is been proposed for deletion
16:20:43 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:32:17 -!- lament has joined.
16:59:30 <alise> d.
17:17:26 <Sgeo> Submitting a YouTube video to Reddit doesn't imply that I made it, does it?
17:29:23 <alise> ...No?
18:11:11 -!- alise has set topic: Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, divine and occult knowledge, esoteric programming languages, ethereal and astral projection, government conspiracies to deny common paranormal events | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
18:11:13 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1e/Windows_Chicago_%28build_73%29_boot_screen.gif
18:11:22 <alise> Microsoft CHICA Lens Flare GO
18:11:35 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Winchicagodesktop.png
18:11:44 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Windowschicago73.png
18:13:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:13:33 <alise> hi oerjan
18:13:46 <oerjan> g'day alise
18:13:52 <alise> b'day
18:14:19 <oerjan> it's your birthday?
18:15:47 <alise> no
18:15:56 <alise> that would be the 22nd of august
18:16:07 <oerjan> ah
18:16:36 <oerjan> <- 28th of june
18:16:51 <alise> ok; i will promptly forget that
18:17:04 <oerjan> a very perfect date *cackles evilly*
18:26:18 <alise> oerjan: stop cackling.
18:26:23 <alise> you have cackled a sufficient amount.
18:26:54 <oerjan> i stopped several minutes ago. ok to be honest i never really started.
18:35:40 <alise> "Firefox on Amiga: Timberwolf Goes Alpha"
18:35:44 <alise> aww
18:35:47 <alise> it's amigaos 4
18:35:47 <alise> lame
18:38:48 * Sgeo wonders if he can chart things with Wolfram Alpha
18:40:53 <Sgeo> Or I'll just try a spreadsheet
18:42:01 <alise> chart what exactly
18:43:09 <cheater99> hello
18:43:10 <cheater99> what's up
18:43:26 <cheater99> you can chart things with alpha, but it's quite crap
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19:07:31 <alise> hi coppro
19:08:39 <coppro> hi
19:11:02 * alise is on his every-so-often Install Windows in a VM and then Strip It Down Until It Screams in Pain, then Cackle
19:11:12 <alise> DELETE DELETE DELETE
19:13:35 * alise ponders whether his instinct that firewalls should BURN should be now carried out in this mission
19:14:07 <coppro> why do you have an instinct that firewalls should burn?
19:14:16 <alise> Because EVERYTHING MUST BE DELETED
19:14:27 <alise> ...but mostly because I'm pretty sure that:
19:14:42 <alise> - software firewalls are useless for blocking outgoing connectns by malicious software, obviously - and if you have such software you're fucked anyway, and
19:15:04 <alise> - if you don't have any ports on which vulernable software is running, and you aren't trying to block external access to something (which could be done in better ways), you don't need to block incoming connections
19:15:12 <alise> DELETE DELETE DELETE
19:16:24 <coppro> why can't you block outgoing connections?
19:16:31 <alise> well, i'm talking about windows here
19:16:39 <coppro> or do you just mean user-mode can't do it?
19:16:48 <alise> and because disabling some random software in windows is about as easy for a virus as... anything
19:16:55 <coppro> ah
19:17:17 <alise> besides, if you have software that's trying to take over the world through your internet connection, your virus scanner is sort of broken.
19:17:56 <alise> it's actually interesting how windows becomes not-totally-abhorrent if you basically remove 90% of it
19:18:25 <alise> last time i did this i just went nuclear with nlite and removed pretty much everything; the installed windows was something like 200-400 megs of disk and ran extremely quickly and non-crashy
19:20:52 <alise> language idea: typed graphs
19:21:00 <alise> Everything is a graph. Types are basically rules defining what connections are valid.
19:22:32 <coppro> interesting
19:23:10 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:23:11 <alise> what I read on reddit right before switching back and seeing that:
19:23:12 <alise> [[I apologize. It's just that, when someone says "Interesting" as a one-word sentence, it's usually sarcastic.]]
19:23:38 <coppro> ha
19:23:44 <coppro> (with me it's not)
19:24:55 * alise deletes all links in the Games menu apart from FreeCell, Minesweeper and Solitaire
19:29:44 <alise> coppro: the language idea was inspired bya previous comment on that thread :P
19:30:03 <alise> saying that basically every data structure is just an efficient representation of a certain subset of graphs defined by some constraints
19:30:18 <alise> *remove basically
19:32:59 * alise downloads tweakui
19:33:41 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:34:21 <alise> hi ais523
19:34:52 <ais523> hi alise
19:35:20 <ais523> btw, I only realised recently that the name "alise" was the one picked by the random number generator for my last-but-one Neverwinter Nights character
19:35:44 <alise> ha!
19:36:25 <coppro> huh?
19:36:57 <alise> http://www.activewin.com/articles/general/article_29.html <-- opera unveils version 3.5 of opera!
19:36:59 <alise> coppro: huh huh?
19:37:21 <coppro> which RNG?
19:38:18 <alise> presumably, Neverwinter Nights has one included.
19:38:46 <fizzie> I seem to recall it does.
19:39:38 <fizzie> For nostalgymatic reasons I've always used the rinkworks.com namegen, I believe it was the first one I saw.
19:43:25 <alise> now, opera, i am sure you can display a proper menu, not a ghastly opera logo.
19:43:30 <alise> come on. you used to be good
19:44:06 <alise> there we go
19:45:04 <ais523> *random name generator
19:45:21 <ais523> and yes, it works quite well, although it's a bit repetitive for gnomes and not nearly silly enough
19:45:31 * ais523 holds to the point of view that gnome names should be hideously embarassing to say
19:47:44 <fizzie> ais523: http://www.rinkworks.com/namegen/ has a bit more settings.
19:48:05 <ais523> meh, you don't really need an ideal name
19:48:08 <ais523> just a unique one
19:48:12 <fizzie> "Mushy Insults" at least sound embarrassing enough.
19:49:12 <ais523> definitely
19:49:53 <fizzie> (And the Pokemon name generator is very realistic. "Oh, my Faceyzard has evolved to Lumpechu." (Disclaimer: I know nothing about poke-men except what I've acquired through cultural osmosis.))
19:50:10 <ais523> fizzie: whereas I participated in the UK nationals
19:50:23 <ais523> I lost in the second round, due to playing someone good and making a hilariously bad prediction
19:50:30 <ais523> but I was sixth on the online pracice server for a while
19:50:41 <ais523> still, those names sound decent for facetious Pokémon names
19:50:51 <fizzie> Dumbirtle.
19:51:04 <fizzie> (Some of them sound a bit stupid.)
19:51:11 <ais523> I think it's just mixing insults with the second half of real Pokémon names
19:52:22 <alise> Emuntangangeld
19:52:28 <alise> Hinessghaugha
19:52:31 <alise> Achustkalbanlor
19:52:34 <alise> Unttanmosvesy
19:52:49 <alise> All perfectly cromulent names.
19:53:51 <alise> "Names With Apostrophes". The world does not need this option.
19:58:07 <Deewiant> Sure it does.
19:58:23 <Deewiant> It's not a decent Thri-kreen name unless it has at least two apostrophes.
19:59:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: [2010-06-13 02:31:21] Tweeted: About NetHack: it was locked. he took the tub, and resurrection. "need we wait until morning then?" asked conan, eyeing his companion... (fungot)
20:00:00 <fungot> fizzie: you lay golden eggs?!
20:00:10 <fizzie> fungot: Not that I know of, no.
20:00:11 <fungot> fizzie: oh no, there can't be comments in pointy? ( 200 0))) a) 1)
20:00:34 <Deewiant> :-D
20:00:39 <Deewiant> Conan's companion
20:00:54 <fizzie> I was tempted to add "suggestively" before the ... there.
20:15:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, any pictures from your trip btw?
20:15:20 <alise> ^source
20:15:20 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
20:17:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, the one through Europe I meant. Haven't yet seen any pretty photos from it
20:18:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://zem.fi/g2/v/Travel/2010/Interrail/ but there's nothing especially highlight-worthy, and the panoramas are very "autopano-sift + optimize once" messy, since I had approximately no time at all to get the pictures ready before we had to present them to wife's family, and I probably can't motivate myself to fix them now.
20:18:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
20:18:31 <fizzie> E.g. there's only one cat.
20:18:56 <fizzie> Also no comments in the photos.
20:19:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, where are the panos? Or are those thumnails cropped?
20:19:12 <AnMaster> (or is there more than one page?)
20:19:18 <fizzie> All thumbnails are cropped to squares, and panoramas are mixed everywhere.
20:19:22 <AnMaster> ah
20:19:25 <fizzie> And all those are subfolders.
20:19:32 <fizzie> There's around 700-800 photos in there.
20:19:42 <AnMaster> oh wait, those are subdirs
20:19:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, augh, no easy way to find the panos :/
20:20:08 <fizzie> I can provide a list if you want.
20:20:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, thanks, if it isn't too much trouble for you
20:20:28 <fizzie> (The file names are distinctive.)
20:20:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, any way to view more than the default number of images on a single page?
20:21:05 <alise> Question: Why do user interfaces require a hover time before displaying a submenu? It's annoyingly slow, and seemst o have no benefit.
20:21:24 <AnMaster> alise, which user interfaces?
20:21:30 <alise> *seems to
20:21:35 <alise> AnMaster: all WIMP ones
20:21:44 <alise> starting with maybe late mac os or windows 3.1/95
20:22:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't think so, no. There's also no full-screen slideshow thing.
20:22:09 <AnMaster> alise, well okay, I guess xcircuit isn't. It was the one I checked since I happened to have that open
20:22:31 <fizzie> AnMaster: http://pastebin.com/HqeAUf5h has the filenames, just open any random picture and substitute the obvious parts in the URL, it should work.
20:23:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes open random image, then make a short one liner that wgets the files to a dir and then I can display them with eog :)
20:23:41 <fizzie> You'll need to do some link-following for that, because the actual full-size image files have the gallery2 ID in the path.
20:23:47 <fizzie> It's just the view-page URLs that are predictable.
20:24:27 <AnMaster> eh
20:24:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay that's annoying :/
20:24:40 <AnMaster> ah, wget can fetch resources of the image too
20:24:45 <AnMaster> err of the page
20:25:38 <fizzie> I'm not sure that really helps, since the full-size page is not directly on the page, it's just linked (by the "full size" icon).
20:25:44 <alise> ais523: is there some nice historical reason for why the recycle bin is so rubbish?
20:25:51 <alise> please say yes
20:25:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, and full size icon is not full size=
20:26:08 <ais523> alise: I don't know of one
20:26:29 <alise> ais523: but it's so awful, nobody could have /intentionally/ designed it that way, could they?
20:26:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay now time for the heavy tools. curl, grep and sed
20:26:42 <ais523> alise: what specifically is so bad about it?
20:26:46 <fizzie> AnMaster: Of course not; the full-size images are huge (compared to the scaled low-quality versions) and that'd be a whole lot of bandwidth waste to make everyone download those.
20:26:59 <alise> ais523: the fact that the easiest way to empty it is to go to the desktop, right click on the icon, and select empty?
20:27:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah.. hm
20:27:06 <alise> and that if you add it to quick launch this option disappears?
20:27:16 <alise> so you basically have to switch to the desktop for no reason at all?
20:27:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's not really designed to be wgettable, and I don't mind that; my upload pipe is tiny anyway.
20:27:25 <ais523> alise: ouch, that seems bad
20:27:26 <alise> also, the fact that by default it prompts you if you want to empty the recycle bin, when the recycle bin basically IS the prompt
20:27:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not all of them are probably worth viewing closely, anyway.
20:27:44 <ais523> in Ubuntu, there's an empty option on the right-click for it on the taskbar
20:28:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, wtf.. the full size link is javascript
20:28:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, evil
20:28:07 <alise> ais523: of course, you could click on your quick launch icon to open the recycle bin... and then click empty... but oops, if you disable the shitty helpful-folder-sidebar thing there is no such thing! ctrl+a, delete, yes confirm for god's sake, close the window
20:28:12 <alise> ais523: tl;dr aaaaargh
20:28:17 <alise> I'm just going to disable it, I think
20:28:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not writing an interpreter for this in a bash one liner!
20:28:33 <AnMaster> wait, maybe not
20:28:35 * alise sends the recycle bin shortcut to the recycle bin
20:29:01 <fizzie> AnMaster: The "href" field in there is just fine, there's just some useless javascript there too.
20:29:13 <fizzie> AnMaster: (I don't know what's up with that; I didn't make the gallery.)
20:29:43 <AnMaster> hm
20:30:15 <fizzie> Anyway, yes, you want to fetch the link with title="Full Size" for all those image-view pages, that shouldn't be too much work.
20:30:38 <fizzie> (There will be two of them, just pick the first.)
20:32:12 <alise> why is chris okasaki so cool
20:33:49 <AnMaster> curl ${fbasedir}/Folder1/interrail-0009-0018.jpg 2>/dev/null | grep -m 1 -B 1 "popImage" | pcregrep -o '(?<=href=")[^"]+(?=")'
20:33:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about that :D
20:34:09 <fizzie> I'd grep for the 'title="Full Size"' bit, it's more logical.
20:34:14 <fizzie> That might well work too, though.
20:34:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, turns out it is on a different line
20:34:22 <AnMaster> as in, three lines
20:34:30 <AnMaster> I blame either curl or hidden CR or such
20:34:37 <fizzie> Well, -B 2 then.
20:34:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, yeah but mine works too
20:35:01 <fizzie> Apparently, but it might stop working if I add some other popImage-enabled link!
20:36:12 <fizzie> The full-size images are scaled to not so very high resolution either.
20:37:27 <AnMaster> yay
20:37:32 <AnMaster> now it generates wget commands
20:37:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
20:38:16 <AnMaster> so lets see if this works
20:38:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, you have slow upload
20:38:37 <AnMaster> much worse than my ADSL even
20:38:42 <AnMaster> I get about 80 kb/s up
20:38:43 <fizzie> I've said that no less than at least twice in this very same conversation.
20:39:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm I might have missed it in the panoramic enthusiasm!
20:39:08 <fizzie> I get about 100 kB/s, but there's other things going on at the moment.
20:40:06 <AnMaster> damn, forgot to replace the test link with $i in the loop
20:40:09 <AnMaster> *fixes*
20:40:25 <fizzie> 60 kb/s + one Skype call for other stuff; I don't know how wide a Skype call is.
20:40:27 <AnMaster> here we go
20:40:39 <alise> coppro: any idea what a set of constraints on graph connections would look like?
20:40:55 <alise> like, i'm not sure how I'd express "not cyclic" without having it as a primitive
20:41:05 <Sgeo> Grr
20:41:17 <Sgeo> How do I make labels be associated with datapoints in Gnumeric
20:41:38 <alise> Sgeo: like howso
20:41:48 <alise> giving cells a name?
20:41:59 <Sgeo> Giving coordinates which I'm plotting a name
20:41:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw http://sprunge.us/GOUR is the script
20:42:16 <alise> Sgeo: like howso
20:42:19 <Sgeo> The name thing in the data doesn't seem to do anything
20:42:23 <alise> define name
20:42:26 <alise> also, what @ http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/c
20:42:27 <coppro> alise: yeah, that would have to be a primitive
20:42:31 <Sgeo> I want a label to show up by each plotted point
20:42:38 <coppro> no cycles on connection "foo" probably
20:42:45 <alise> coppro: i'm trying to think what kind of constraints produces a list
20:42:48 <alise> hmm
20:42:54 <alise> every cell has only one connection
20:43:12 <alise> do we need a special start node?
20:43:19 <alise> graphs don't usually come with preconceptions of such
20:43:22 <coppro> no, every cell has zero or two outgoing connections;
20:43:34 <coppro> I think you'd have to express scopes as nodes
20:43:36 <alise> oh, right
20:43:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and try saving as progressive optimised jpeg in gimp, gives the smallest files. If you didn't use gimp try the command line tool jpegoptim, it tries to (loselessly) decrease the file size by optimising the huffman encoding stage iirc
20:43:40 <coppro> so the global scope would be a root node
20:43:44 <alise> outgoing connections?
20:43:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, but gimp manages that even better IME
20:43:47 <alise> so directed graphs
20:43:52 <coppro> of course it's directed
20:43:54 <coppro> although...
20:43:57 <alise> acyclic
20:43:57 <alise> every cell has zero or two outgoing connections
20:43:57 <alise> every cell has zero or one incoming connection
20:43:59 <AnMaster> and yeah progressive jpeg tends to be smaller for some reason
20:44:00 <coppro> not directed would be weird
20:44:02 <AnMaster> it is the reverse for pngs
20:44:09 <alise> coppro: I think that produces only lists
20:44:23 <coppro> alise: Right, you'd need a means for other incoming connections so other things could reference it
20:45:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm in Folder1/interrail-0009-0018.jpg, is something weird up with the horizon?
20:45:15 <alise> coppro: ok:
20:45:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, or is it just the projection?
20:45:20 <alise> acyclic
20:45:22 <alise> every cell has zero or two outgoing connections
20:45:23 <alise> every cell has zero or one internal incoming connection
20:45:31 <alise> coppro: well actually, no
20:45:34 <alise> coppro: we treat every structure as a complete graph
20:45:40 <alise> then drop the constraints when it's in another environment, so to speak?
20:45:41 <alise> I guess
20:45:42 <alise> maybe not
20:46:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: Like I said, I haven't really spent any time fixing those. I think I clicked the "straighten" button on that one, but that's a bit random. It does look a bit screwed up.
20:46:07 <Sgeo> alise, I want to label each individual point of data with its own name
20:46:18 <fizzie> Maybe a bit more than just a bit.
20:46:20 <Sgeo> Maybe I have to go to OpenOffice.org Calc?
20:46:30 <alise> gnumeric can do everything iirc :P
20:46:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah hm nice panos though :)
20:46:54 <Sgeo> alise, then tell me how to give each individual point of data a label
20:46:56 <fizzie> These are all again with no tripod or anything, so the source material is on the difficult side, especially for the automagic tools.
20:47:18 <alise> Sgeo: jfgi
20:47:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is the image with golden stuff on the roof?
20:47:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is interrail-0898-0900.jpg
20:47:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: There's a nice phantom foot in that one. It's from Versailles.
20:47:53 <coppro> alise: That would work, but then it's less exciting I think
20:47:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
20:48:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, there are doppelgangers in a few other ones too
20:48:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, though more than the legs usually
20:48:45 <fizzie> Yes, lots of people there.
20:49:40 <fizzie> As for "golden stuff", just look at http://zem.fi/g2/v/Travel/2010/Interrail/Folder6/interrail-0897.jpg.html
20:49:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, is 08949-0870.jpg 360 degrees?
20:49:49 <fizzie> It's a bit... overdone for my tastes.
20:50:02 <fizzie> Is it the one with Louvre's glass pyramid? If so, yes.
20:50:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh I agree. I prefer simplistic design.
20:50:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes indeed that one
20:51:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, where is the cottage garden? 1228-1230.jpg?
20:51:33 <fizzie> Still Versailles.
20:51:43 <fizzie> All "Folder6" images are from there.
20:51:45 <AnMaster> same for 1353-1358?
20:51:51 <AnMaster> ah hm * checks folder*
20:52:12 <AnMaster> nop that one was not versailles then
20:52:19 <AnMaster> folder 7?
20:52:25 <fizzie> That's Folder7, and it's the view through our hotel window in Paris.
20:52:46 <fizzie> Rue Therese, plus a few accents in the vowels here and there.
20:53:01 <fizzie> Thérèse, apparently.
20:53:26 <fizzie> (Is the name of the street there.)
20:53:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, the panos in Folder1 are from?
20:53:58 <AnMaster> Stockholm or Helsinki I guess?
20:54:10 <fizzie> Helsinki coastline, the Hki-Sto boat was just leaving.
20:54:14 <AnMaster> ah
20:54:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, the last one (Stickholm) looks very strange in the other right edge of the sky
20:54:55 <AnMaster> also, is it 180° or?
20:55:20 <fizzie> 180 and a bit, there was a bit of a pier.
20:55:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, a pier in the sky?
20:55:53 <AnMaster> ah
20:55:58 <fizzie> No, from the coast, so it's a bit more than 180 degrees because of that.
20:55:59 <AnMaster> wait you meant from a pier
20:56:02 <AnMaster> ah
20:56:32 <AnMaster> oh and I think it needs a tiny bit of photometric correction, the sky changes shade in some places. Apart from the strange bit at the right side
20:56:47 <fizzie> Yes, it does.
20:57:09 <fizzie> It's just that the automatic low-dynamic-range vari-exposure fixed-wb settings made it really horrible, and I was in a hurry.
20:57:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, but what caused the bit on the right? It can't be due to exposure or white balance can it?
20:57:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I tend to not worry about WB until I get to the computer. After all with raw you you don't have to worry about it until at the computer :)
20:58:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway, very nice all of them :)
20:58:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, I didn't notice any seams except when it went through someone moving about
20:59:24 <AnMaster> fizzie, also, how much ram does stitching the 360° one take?
20:59:27 <fizzie> There's a huge gap in the 360-degree one, near the left edge of the image file. It would probably be easily fixable with better control points.
21:00:20 <fizzie> The right-most source image in the Stockholm one is a bit over-exposed, the sky's been clipped close to white, which probably explains why it lacks color in the stitch.
21:00:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, huge gap? hm? oh maybe you need to optimise the FOV too then
21:00:35 <AnMaster> and the lens parameters
21:00:44 <Sgeo> "labels clearly need to be implemented, and are just waiting for a
21:00:44 <Sgeo> volunteer."
21:00:48 <Sgeo> That was in 2008
21:01:06 <fizzie> "Gap" in the "does not match" sense, not in the "missing data" sense. That was confusingly put, I admit.
21:01:09 <Sgeo> This copy of Gnumeric dates from before then, I think :/
21:01:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
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21:01:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, for my 360° panos to line up I tend to first need to optimise for only position, then for position and FOV, then for that + barrel and so on, and finally all those + x/y shift. For some reasons the results of doing it all at once tends to be rather bad
21:05:03 <fizzie> I have a similarish procedure too.
21:05:52 <AnMaster> [1303881.820036] usb 5-2: new full speed USB device using uhci_hcd and address 14
21:05:52 <AnMaster> [1303886.973661] usb 5-2: string descriptor 0 read error: -71
21:05:52 <AnMaster> [1303886.977680] usb 5-2: can't set config #1, error -71
21:05:57 <AnMaster> wtf is up with my card reader
21:06:19 <AnMaster> huh, now it works
21:06:22 <AnMaster> another usb port
21:07:04 <fizzie> The old card reader I have flatly refused to grok a SDHC card. It does plain SD cards just fine.
21:07:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I don't have any such cards
21:07:20 <fizzie> Had to move half of those photos through the camera's USB connection nonsense.
21:07:21 <AnMaster> I just have CF
21:07:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, in fact my camera is faster. this thing is USB 1.1, and camera is USB 2
21:07:48 <fizzie> CF is the one that makes sense, but smaller cameras tend to like small-form-factor cards more.
21:07:53 <AnMaster> but it tends to train the battery of the camera
21:07:54 <AnMaster> very fast
21:08:22 <fizzie> The N900 USB connection is pretty fast (USB 2.0, most likely) but the camera is slow. And battery-drainy too.
21:09:36 * AnMaster hopes the recent fixes in the lego thingy fixes the tendency for one of the critical controlling parts for the pneumatics to come loose after about 170°
21:09:58 <alise> coppro:
21:10:38 <alise> list(A) := {
21:10:38 <alise> acyclic
21:10:38 <alise> every cell has [] or [A, list(A)] outgoing connections
21:10:38 <alise> every cell has [] or [list(A)] internal incoming connections
21:10:38 <alise> }
21:10:43 <alise> coppro: forgot it had to be typed :P
21:12:27 <Sgeo> ARGH
21:13:14 <Sgeo> I'm in OpenOffice.org Calc. If I choose "Data series in columns", the points look correct, but have one nonsensical label. If I do "Data series in rows", the labels are good, but the points are nonsensical
21:13:16 * Sgeo cries
21:13:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw I found out that my camera's clock is slightly slow. I set it last time about 3 years ago. It was slow by 12 minutes. Not too bad really
21:16:27 <fizzie> Sgeo: Just choose only the data points for plotting, then in the "data series" wizard step you can customize more ranges for labels.
21:16:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm not sure when I set this (I think we got the camera in 2007 or so), but it's now 3 minutes ahead of the correct time.
21:19:03 <Sgeo> The "Data labels" thing doesn't seem to be functioning as I would assume it would
21:19:49 <fizzie> If you mean labels of the data series, if you don't want to have to click those manually for each, the "first row/column as label" checkboxes are also worth a try. The whole process is not very intuitive, and I don't really know what sort of thing you want, so maybe I won't try guessing any more.
21:20:30 <Sgeo> I want one different label for each point in the series
21:21:29 <fizzie> The "data labels" thing only shows the values in labels, I guess.
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21:26:00 <Sgeo> I think if I reorganize my data in a clinically insane way, I can get what I want
21:26:35 <fizzie> I can sort-of do that in gnuplot if your data is sensibly formatted, but I don't know about oocalc.
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21:26:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
21:26:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, my camera is way older than that though
21:27:00 <Sgeo> Is there a pastebin for spreadsheets?
21:27:07 <fizzie> Google Docs. :p
21:27:19 <fizzie> (Doesn't it have some sort of spreadsheety thing?)
21:27:59 * Sgeo wonders if Google Docs may do the charting he wants
21:28:26 <fizzie> Someone else wanted custom data labels in oocalc, and ended up doing the graphing in R instead. Heh.
21:29:02 <Sgeo> o.O
21:29:58 <fizzie> You could get it done in oocalc if it allowed per-data-series setting of "categories" (because you can get those as data labels), but categories (as far as I can tell) are a graph-wide setting.
21:30:33 <AnMaster> damn that fix did not work
21:30:56 <alise> i suggest using oleo :P
21:31:00 <Sgeo> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aha-onC9NxdadGxYbzVPNmFjaGR4WTRrVmdQTlRWMVE&hl=en
21:31:07 <alise> note: cannot graph. well, i think it can chart with plotlib or something with the ugly motif interface
21:31:41 <alise> Sgeo: no permission to view
21:32:38 <Sgeo> Works for Chrome in incognito. Try again?
21:32:52 <fizzie> Worked for me(tm).
21:32:57 <fizzie> But what do you want out of that data?
21:33:02 <Sgeo> A map
21:33:07 <Sgeo> Those numbers represent locations
21:33:16 <fizzie> Ah.
21:33:19 <alise> "Unfortunately, this is a coincidence." --uorygl on the etymology of "cum"
21:33:28 <fizzie> I think that should work in oocalc.
21:33:50 <uorygl> Small world.
21:34:26 <Sgeo> fizzie, how?
21:34:44 <fizzie> Sgeo: I'll see if I can figure that out.
21:34:53 <Sgeo> tyvm
21:34:56 <alise> Sgeo: works now
21:35:06 <alise> what the fuck are you graphing
21:35:15 <Sgeo> Take a guess.
21:35:21 <Sgeo> You should be able to guess correctly.
21:35:47 <alise> something to do with some shitty game
21:36:04 <Sgeo> Yep! [Except ofc I wouldn't call it shitty]
21:36:30 <alise> it is
21:36:36 <fizzie> Sgeo: Yes, it does sort of work. Do you want a .ods file or just messy instructions?
21:36:54 <Sgeo> Messy instructions would be nice
21:37:01 <Sgeo> And what do you mean "sort of"?
21:37:25 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't look pretty.
21:38:57 <fizzie> So. Select just the numbers, click the chart-making wizard, select XY (scatter), next, "data series in columns" (no labels anywhere), next, then for "data labels" set the range that has the names, next, disable legend/grids, finish; ... [cont]
21:39:42 <fizzie> ... then in the actual graph, click one of the points so that it selects (highlights) the series, right-click, "insert data labels", right-click again, "format data labels", and then select "show category" instead of "show value as number" as the label.
21:40:03 <fizzie> That should give you the points in those coordinates, and those names above the points.
21:40:23 <fizzie> This was based on OO.org 3.2, I don't know how different it would be for other versions.
21:42:01 <Sgeo> Ah crap, I don't see "Insert data labels"
21:42:18 <Sgeo> I think I see something similar though
21:42:21 <fizzie> Ghrm. And you clicked the data points, not the whole graph?
21:43:15 <Sgeo> Got it, ty
21:43:30 <Sgeo> I went to Object properties... and there was a data labels thing there
21:43:46 <fizzie> Okay. If it works...
21:43:57 <fizzie> Doing it that way will still mean all points are in the same "series", so they'll have the same color/icon, just that the names will be above the points. It might be trickier if you want them to have separate colors and legend entries.
21:44:37 <Sgeo> This is fine, thanks!
21:46:05 <Sgeo> It looks.. upside down. I guess what I always thought of as "forward" was South
21:48:47 <fizzie> Sgeo: If you want, you can right-click on the Y axis line, do "format axis" and turn on "reverse direction".
21:49:06 -!- hiato has joined.
21:49:15 <fizzie> (In this version, anyway.)
21:59:14 <cheater99> is there a c2bf of some sort?
21:59:54 <ais523> there's gcc-bf, but it's unfinished
22:00:03 <cheater99> isn't that the other way around
22:00:11 <cheater99> i want to compile c to *****fuck
22:00:18 <ais523> yep, it's gcc with a BF backend
22:00:31 <cheater99> wait
22:00:34 <cheater99> i'm confused
22:01:11 <cheater99> does it mean it puts out bf or it eats bf?
22:01:28 <alise> puts out bf
22:01:32 <alise> also c2bf, but that's older and more shittier
22:01:34 <cheater99> thank you
22:01:41 <alise> cheater99: iirc it doesn't actually fully work yet
22:01:45 <alise> it's ais523's project as he is humbly omitting
22:02:07 -!- FredrIQ has joined.
22:04:08 <cheater99> i am wondering about a language that is esoteric and not fully cryptanalized yet
22:04:16 <cheater99> or at least not widely known enough
22:04:35 <cheater99> fast enough to run near the main loop of an app
22:05:04 <alise> eh?
22:05:30 <cheater99> expand on that thought
22:07:04 <alise> what art thou talking about.st.
22:08:48 <cheater99> making the application difficult to RE
22:09:05 <cheater99> self modifying code is not really successful anymore
22:09:55 <alise> well if you can write the code someone else can make sense of it.
22:10:55 <ais523> not always
22:11:51 <ais523> alise: what method would you recommend for testing a webapp on IE?
22:11:57 <alise> ais523: Suicide?
22:12:01 <alise> ais523: Uh, I'd use a VM.
22:12:07 <alise> Is that a boring solution?
22:12:18 <alise> ais523: You /could/ use IEs4linux, but who knows what tricksy things Windows has in store.
22:13:24 <ais523> I don't have a spare Windows licence to put in a VM, is the issue
22:14:26 <ais523> I suppose I could boot into the Windows partition here
22:14:31 <ais523> but that would mean closing everything down
22:15:06 <Sgeo> ^^why I chose between Windows and Linux for my main OS, instead of using Linux for everything but my games
22:15:08 <ais523> I wonder if there are online IE VMs that you can VPN into, or whatever
22:15:14 <fizzie> ais523: Run the Windows partition in a VM?
22:15:23 <ais523> fizzie: it's an OEM licence
22:15:28 <ais523> so can't be used on different hardware, like a VM
22:15:41 <ais523> not just a technicality, it would go mad if I tried
22:15:44 <ais523> due to the anti-piracy features
22:19:11 <fizzie> Yes, I guess that's what it does. Though I like to call it an "anti-upgrade feature", since it also bites you if you just want to upgrade the computer too much.
22:20:03 <Sgeo> Awesome. I can't save a file in OOo that has the same name as a folder.
22:20:06 <fizzie> Our university has some remote-desktop IE boxes for staff, though I guess officially those are only for using the horrible IE-only university web-apps, not random testing.
22:20:15 <Sgeo> Or, same name excluding .extension
22:20:23 <alise> <ais523> I don't have a spare Windows licence to put in a VM, is the issue
22:20:29 <alise> I don't suppose I could suggest something illegal?
22:20:39 <fizzie> Can't you just write the extension explicitly? I don't think it adds a duplicate if you spell it out.
22:20:39 <ais523> I wouldn't follow illegal suggestions
22:20:50 <alise> <ais523> fizzie: it's an OEM licence
22:20:50 <alise> <ais523> so can't be used on different hardware, like a VM
22:20:50 <alise> <ais523> not just a technicality, it would go mad if I tried
22:20:57 <alise> you could remove that crap by booting into the partition, using whatever tools remove it
22:20:59 <alise> and then doing it in the vm
22:21:07 <alise> i don't think that's illegal, i'm pretty sure that's like a protected right
22:21:11 <ais523> yep, I think that's legal
22:21:16 <ais523> but I also think I'd screw it up if I tried
22:23:12 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that reversing one axis makes the map.. wrong
22:23:44 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow).
22:25:49 <Sgeo> Now, how do I save this chart as an image?
22:30:58 <alise> ais523: there are click-and-it-disappears tools for pretty much every windows abomination out there
22:31:11 <ais523> yes, some cleaner than others
22:31:24 <ais523> I'm not nearly savvy enough to find the ones that work without being full of trojans
22:32:16 <alise> what's the thing that does it?
22:32:22 <alise> not windows genuine advantage... windows product activation?
22:32:31 <alise> <ais523> fizzie: it's an OEM licence
22:32:31 <alise> <ais523> so can't be used on different hardware, like a VM
22:32:31 <alise> <ais523> not just a technicality, it would go mad if I tried
22:32:31 <ais523> yes, I think so
22:32:32 <alise> hmm
22:32:34 <alise> err
22:32:39 <alise> can't copy from windows vm to linux :D
22:33:04 <alise> ais523: ok, here's an idea
22:33:18 <alise> it says it only dies if the hardware is seen as "not substantially the same"
22:33:34 <alise> boot into windows, unplug almost everything, shut down, set vm as close as possible, ??
22:33:35 <alise> *???
22:33:43 <ais523> vms tend to be pretty different
22:33:50 <ais523> and it cares about essential hardware, not peripherals
22:33:54 <alise> ais523: aha
22:33:56 <ais523> things like disk model, cpu model, that sort of hting
22:33:57 <alise> ais523: do you have the CD?
22:34:01 <ais523> there isn't a CD
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22:34:10 <alise> darn
22:34:15 <alise> apparently you can configure the oem version to install as retails
22:34:17 <alise> *retail
22:34:21 <alise> oh, you'd need a retail key
22:34:22 <alise> hmm
22:34:27 <alise> ais523: ies4linux /should/ work
22:34:33 <alise> ... what website are you testing?
22:34:38 <alise> I can't imagine you using anything that wouldn't work in ... lynx
22:34:59 <ais523> alise: it's a webapp for calculating legailty of Pokémon
22:35:03 <ais523> and to help in RNGing them
22:35:11 <ais523> and it doesn't work in IE, browsershots confirms it
22:35:42 <alise> ais523: ies4linux should work just fine
22:35:55 <alise> http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/
22:36:16 <alise> ais523: basically it installs an IE/Wine setup and fixes all the little niggles that stops it... working
22:36:33 <ais523> would it clash with existing wine?
22:36:36 <alise> maybe it just automates the install, not sure
22:36:38 <alise> ais523: it uses existing wine.
22:37:00 <alise> ais523: it can install everything from ie 5.5 or 6, I forget, to 8, iirc
22:37:05 <alise> so, you know, that's cool
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22:43:12 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/7Qatq.png
22:43:26 <alise> I see.
22:43:28 <Sgeo> Going to make a better chart though, one less vulnerable to human error
22:43:33 <alise> Is that meant to be... a map?
22:43:42 <Sgeo> Yes
22:43:50 <alise> >_<
22:44:02 <Sgeo> How?
22:45:50 <ais523> gah, ies4linux has caused that cascading freeze problem
22:45:59 <ais523> where it freezes, then all terminals mentioning it freeze, etc
22:46:02 <ais523> until the system becomes unusual
22:47:24 <alise> huh
22:47:44 <alise> http://www.winhistory.de/more/386/xpmini_eng.htm <-- Features Windows XP booting on a 7 MHz original Pentium with 20 MiB of RAM
22:47:50 <alise> Boot time: 30 minutes.
22:49:47 <ais523> that's similar to how long it takes on a modern networked and externally controlled system
22:50:16 * Sgeo writes what is probably crappy Haskell
22:51:45 <alise> ais523: heh
22:51:56 <ais523> ie6 seems to work, at least
22:52:06 <ais523> should really have turned network access off first
22:52:13 <alise> ais523: You know, I wouldn't bother targeting ie6...
22:52:16 <ais523> but it's unlikely that things that target IE will have Linux-targetting payloads
22:52:28 <ais523> alise: ies4linux works best with it
22:52:29 <alise> ais523: but wine can access the linux root by default
22:52:35 <ais523> alise: yes, it can
22:52:40 <alise> and thus has permissions to wipe your home folder
22:52:53 <ais523> yep, I'm relying on security through obscurity here
22:53:01 <ais523> and avoiding websites altogether, using only the file:/// tree
22:53:02 <alise> There's some highly illegal XP distribution floating around with tons of stuff stripped; e.g. they replaced Windows Explorer with the Windows 95 version and iirc removed all the MSHTML and IE files.
22:56:36 * alise wonders how small he could get Windows XP and have it still ... do things
22:56:39 <alise> *she
22:56:42 <alise> silly nick pronouns
22:56:51 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Zzzz).
22:57:02 <alise> hmm... with gratuitous use of nLite + a purging of \WINDOWS, should be possible
22:58:27 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
22:58:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:01:13 <coppro> filesystems suck
23:01:35 <coppro> alise: make me a better model of a filesystem
23:01:55 <coppro> actually, wait
23:01:56 <coppro> I can hardlink
23:02:05 <alise> coppro: I believe you already know what my opinions are on filesystems.
23:02:14 <coppro> that's good enough
23:03:30 <coppro> still, the world needs a better model of filesystems :/
23:04:17 <alise> Proposed better model of filesystems: none at all.
23:06:30 <AnMaster> alise, maybe some sort of object database?
23:06:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:06:44 <AnMaster> sure that is vague
23:06:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, hi
23:06:48 <alise> Simple:
23:06:54 <alise> RAM is disk cache.
23:06:58 <alise> If you want to go even further:
23:07:02 <alise> Disk is global encrypted network cache.
23:07:04 <oerjan> ho
23:07:08 <AnMaster> alise, well yes + stack?
23:07:09 <alise> hi ho
23:07:10 <AnMaster> I presume?
23:07:11 <alise> it's off to work we go
23:07:16 <alise> AnMaster: You know what I mean. :-)
23:09:04 <AnMaster> alise, well I think most programs will want some non-persistent working state
23:09:28 <AnMaster> alise, or do you claim that registers are RAM cache? ;P
23:10:02 <alise> Consider:
23:10:08 <alise> You are running a very intensive computation that will take hours and hours.
23:10:13 <alise> Your trip over your power cord.
23:10:29 <alise> Your computer has decided that it doesn't need to persist that data, and you are fired from your job, which is maintaining high-performance computers.
23:10:34 <alise> You have no money to buy food, so you starve to death.
23:10:36 <AnMaster> well unlikely the way my room is organised
23:10:42 <alise> Thus, not persisting temporary data is equivalent to murder.
23:10:44 <AnMaster> I would have to get between a bookshelf and a wall
23:10:56 <AnMaster> alise, yes, and this task is _very_ memory intensive.
23:11:02 <AnMaster> and it updates memory a lot
23:11:11 <alise> AnMaster: There are efficient algorithms to do persisting like this.
23:11:14 <AnMaster> alise, so it would be IO bound if writing the state to disk all the time
23:11:19 <alise> Research topic etc.
23:11:27 <AnMaster> alise, snapshotting every few minutes might work better for that
23:11:31 <alise> AnMaster: that's why you do it as a background process every very small interval
23:11:39 <alise> (on the order of, say, 1s at most)
23:11:44 <alise> well okay
23:11:45 <alise> 10s at most
23:11:53 <alise> there are good ways to do all this
23:11:54 <AnMaster> alise, but writing out 24 GB data to disk? (yes this is a high end workstation we imagine)
23:11:57 <AnMaster> that would take ages
23:12:06 <alise> AnMaster: how fast can you modify 24 gigs of ram?
23:12:16 <AnMaster> alise, pretty fast since it will use 8 cores
23:12:21 <AnMaster> and the ram is fast
23:12:30 <alise> ... you do realise that multiple cores use the same ram pathways?
23:12:34 <AnMaster> a lot of it is able to be done in fast stores
23:12:45 <AnMaster> alise, no? NUMA
23:12:54 <alise> Fine, NUMA.
23:12:58 <alise> I'm just saying, most of the time.
23:13:06 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:13:08 <AnMaster> alise, even Xenon core i7 is NUMA
23:13:08 <alise> AnMaster: Anyway, obviously such an edge-case could disable or significantly slow that.
23:13:17 <alise> (persisting)
23:13:56 <AnMaster> alise, well while we were talking I was doing some memory intensive stuff. Not quite as bad and task is fast. Converting raw files to tiff
23:14:06 <AnMaster> it takes about 20 seconds per file
23:14:12 <AnMaster> batch job
23:14:17 <alise> You know what you'd be good at?
23:14:21 <AnMaster> dumping state in between seems pointless for that
23:14:30 <alise> QA. Your brain is entirely devoted to the task of finding exceptions to the rule :-)
23:14:30 <AnMaster> alise, well I can think of a lot of things ;P
23:14:41 <AnMaster> alise, oh yeah QA is important IMO :)
23:14:45 <alise> But anyway, yes, "RAM is disk cache" is a simplified view.
23:14:51 <alise> But it's the essence of the philosophy.
23:15:05 <AnMaster> yes it makes kind of sense for some type of tasks
23:15:25 <alise> Well, it's part of my OS design... and, oh, Smalltalk's.
23:15:26 <AnMaster> alise, like for those people who don't save every half minute when writing something and make a VCS commit every few minutes
23:15:27 <AnMaster> :P
23:15:40 <alise> I can think of plenty of ways to make it omit temporary objects.
23:15:41 <AnMaster> I keep all my assignments for university in version control of course
23:15:46 <alise> e.g., never save local variables
23:15:50 <alise> only exposed things on an object
23:16:06 <AnMaster> alise, yes, you don't want to write out the int i; for a tight loop ;P
23:16:11 <AnMaster> probably
23:16:20 <AnMaster> unless very very long running
23:16:25 <alise> An even more radical part of my vision is that almost everything should be versioned. :-)
23:16:47 <alise> This is quite practical, though, with deduplicative storage; see Plan 9 venti, which is tried and tested and works exactly like that.
23:16:55 <alise> (you never delete a venti record)
23:16:57 <AnMaster> alise, well certainly but that would fill your disk pretty fast if you version middle-of-computation state
23:17:09 <alise> Yes, obviously you don't version that. Sheesh, I'm not *that* stupid. :P
23:17:18 <AnMaster> and it would be quite useless to have a version like "panorama stitching: 25% done"
23:17:27 * coppro has an urge to make an 'edge case' pun
23:17:41 <AnMaster> coppro, is it something to do with suite cases?
23:17:49 <coppro> I was thinking graphs
23:17:52 <AnMaster> ah
23:27:22 <alise> pointers
23:28:10 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/T6bDS.png
23:37:16 <alise> http://jeffkatz.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a721c2d7970b0133ec69016c970b-800wi
23:37:17 <alise> Just... what.
23:37:54 <coppro> Sgeo: ?
23:37:58 <Sgeo> Any D&D person: How do you pronounce " Majere"
23:38:20 <Sgeo> coppro, map based on converting the data I had to CSV first, instead of manually typing it in
23:38:28 <coppro> what's the data of?
23:38:28 <Sgeo> More reliable, more information
23:38:34 <alise> coppro: some shitty 3d virtual reality
23:38:37 <alise> it's sgeo, couldn't you have guessed?
23:38:38 <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation
23:39:19 <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games
23:39:26 <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing
23:39:37 <alise> Ha!
23:40:06 <alise> `addquote <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing
23:40:15 <HackEgo> 180|<coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing
23:40:36 <coppro> I don't think it's possible to fit that quote's context in under one week
23:40:44 <alise> ...under one week?
23:41:04 <coppro> yeah, I was referring to his longstanding tradition of being interested in games that the rest of the world considers dead
23:41:11 <coppro> like the MUSHes
23:41:21 <alise> and "Cybertown"
23:41:28 <alise> coppro: since when is a week a measure of length? :P
23:41:38 <alise> but anyway, that tradition is well-known enough that it needs not be mentioned
23:41:41 <pineapple> it is in the fourth dimension
23:41:45 <coppro> it's a measure of duration
23:44:51 <Sgeo> I don't think LambdaMOO is considered a MUSH
23:45:04 -!- Oranjer has joined.
23:45:44 <alise> hey guys
23:45:57 <alise> who uses the windows calculator right?? Or the defragmenter?? Or Paint??
23:45:59 <alise> I can strip those out can't I!
23:48:12 * Sgeo has a Win98 install somewhere with the bare minimum
23:49:04 <pineapple> alise: i use windows calculator
23:50:04 <alise> pineapple: but i'm trying to get the smallest usable windows xp installation!
23:50:10 <alise> can't you just use some smaller calculator :P
23:50:56 <Sgeo> You can use one of the OMG calculators
23:51:16 <Sgeo> [except the ones that rely on the Windows calculator, I guess]
23:53:59 <alise> i'd better keep the defragmenter
23:54:03 <alise> for... obvious reasons
23:54:14 <alise> oh
23:54:15 <alise> there are third party ones
23:54:17 <alise> great
23:55:22 <pineapple> alise: fair enough; i only use it cos i cba to get a replacement
23:55:44 <pineapple> what size are you shooting for?
23:55:57 <alise> <400 meg installed, as best as i can basically
23:56:02 <alise> and lowest resource usage hopefully
23:56:11 <pineapple> hd size?
23:56:14 <alise> not even installing sound drivers by default
23:56:17 <alise> pineapple: ?
23:56:45 <pineapple> how big is the disk you'r installibng on?
23:57:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:57:32 <alise> pineapple: oh it's a vm
23:57:35 <alise> so 10 gig max :P
23:57:38 <pineapple> aah
23:57:39 <pineapple> ok
23:57:42 <alise> but i'm optimising for lowest disk usage and resource usage
23:57:44 <alise> this is just for fun basically
23:57:55 <alise> my automatic reaction to boxes marked "Remove" is "CLICK CLICK CLICK"
23:58:11 * alise sets back adoption of IPv6 by removing it
23:58:13 <pineapple> there needs to be a newbs guide to using vms
23:58:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:58:24 <alise> 16-bit apps? pfft
23:58:26 <alise> pineapple: it's easy :P
23:58:34 <AnMaster> alise, boost is so bloated that I can't use -j2 when compiling a project that uses it. because that causes swap trashing.
23:58:37 <pineapple> setting up as well?
23:58:40 <AnMaster> thus -j1 is faster, even on dual core
23:58:43 <AnMaster> oh the irony
23:58:50 <pineapple> j ?
23:59:07 <AnMaster> pineapple, to make obviously
23:59:11 <alise> who needs edit, edlin, ping, xcopy, sort, more, ipconfig and others?
23:59:15 <alise> Do not say "me".
23:59:29 <Gregor> Windoze users?
23:59:34 <AnMaster> -pineapple- VERSION irssi v0.8.12
23:59:36 <AnMaster> no?
23:59:37 <alise> I'm slimming down Windows XP to be almost nothing :P
23:59:47 <pineapple> i've found xcopy more useful than copy
23:59:48 <alise> Gregor: You can just use Cygwin or some other crap surely!
23:59:49 <coppro> I've used ipconfig, sort, and ping; also less
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