< 1276473602 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your point? < 1276473616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pineapple, well -j is "more than one job in parallel" < 1276473638 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucked if i can remember all of the options to make < 1276473673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nslookup? lpr? finger? ftp? < 1276473675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug? < 1276473680 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THESE ARE ALL PROGRAMS A WINDOWS USER DOES NOT NEED, FRIENDS. < 1276473688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. they're only 300 kilobytes < 1276473690 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay you can have them < 1276473703 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a poweruser might need them... but they likely have better alternatives < 1276473718 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then agaon < 1276473725 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a power user is likely not using windows xp < 1276473726 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extra fonts... georgia is not rarely used! < 1276473737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH 1.92 megs... and it obliterates Impact and Comic Sans... < 1276473738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah delete it < 1276473748 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obliterates? < 1276473764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gets rid of < 1276473767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Help Engine? HAHAHA < 1276473768 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276473769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EXPERTS NEED NO HELP < 1276473817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Search Assistant: "That annoying animated dog in the search window." < 1276473818 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Says it all/ < 1276473819 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*all. < 1276473865 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i take it you're ok with using the classic windows theme < 1276473881 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if the xp theme can be removed < 1276473902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1276473910 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :size? < 1276474448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1276474646 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, when was the G3 made? < 1276474672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :G3 what < 1276474679 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mac, I think < 1276474740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hmm. Any reason for slimming down XP so much? < 1276474755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Fun. < 1276474759 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: iBook? iMac? < 1276474766 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure < 1276474822 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Because the Mac cannot currently do multi-user VR. The current blaxxun Contact (needed for 3D in Cybertown) requires the Microsoft COM architecture. Microsoft has announced that they plan to port it to the Mac. However, until there is a solid COM implementation on the Mac, the Macintosh version is not likely to be developed. However, blaxxun Contact should run in the Windows 95 emulation on the latest Macs (e.g. G3) - albeit slowly. " < 1276474824 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1276474871 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had to have been written before 2004 or so, since the same page claims that Cybertown is free < 1276474878 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276474890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: eh, old. < 1276474895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g3 imac is first imac 1998 < 1276474974 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276475005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION lets nlite rrrrrrrrrrrrrrip < 1276475047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REMOVING EVERYTHING < 1276475048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHAHAHAHAHAH < 1276475049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < 1276475052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/\n//g < 1276475057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1276475059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i/\n/ < 1276475196 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: this thing will install on an original ibm pc when i'm done with it < 1276475261 0 :charlls!~charlls@190.140.73.68 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276475274 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So... DOS then. < 1276475275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit < 1276475280 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1276475282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "Finished! Total size is 112.53MB" < 1276475289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The installation was reduced by 493.76MB." < 1276475299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spiffy. You got it smaller than Slax. < 1276475308 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, Slax probably includes a whole lot more. < 1276475329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION saves MiniXP.iso < 1276475334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: this thing doesn't even have a defragmenter < 1276475336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a calculator < 1276475339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a calculator... < 1276475344 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I christen it "MiniXP". < 1276475354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And all of Busybox... < 1276475367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This isn't even all, though. < 1276475373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, wait, yes it is. < 1276475374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But whatever. < 1276475389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I strongly suspect you yanked out IE. < 1276475423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ...maybe < 1276475425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can replace it with the Mozilla ActiveX control or something... < 1276475429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err, actually, did I remember to? < 1276475479 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehh, probaly. < 1276475480 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*probably < 1276475544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hell, I even removed the *fancy installer*. It has a black background and the Windows 2000 style now. < 1276475551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome! < 1276475557 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is such a better installer. < 1276475562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also significantly faster. < 1276475571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course there is one problem. < 1276475580 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yes, the fancy installer is absurdly slow for no good reason) < 1276475586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I will get a chance to test this until next week! :-( < 1276475598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should install in like 10 minutes. < 1276475603 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...true. < 1276475627 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually faster; that's just the speed gain you get from removing the fancy installer. < 1276475659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: haha lol @ how quick setup is copying files went < 1276475666 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaand it's at 90% < 1276475669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aand it's done < 1276475674 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*aand < 1276475688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course, this thing probably has tons of little incompatibilities that you will grow to hate in time. < 1276475708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it should support Cygwin. < 1276475710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hell, for a start, you need to download a browser via *FTP*! < 1276475735 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea of having Windows XP solely for a Cygwin install amuses me. ;) < 1276475773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I christen thee new installation: mini. < 1276475791 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, if only it wasn't illegal to sell this. < 1276475895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wow, it logs in in like... 0 seconds. < 1276475932 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congrats, you removed the bloat. < 1276475942 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd imagine you could run that sucker on a 386 with ease. < 1276475944 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C:\WINDOWS weighs in at 264 MiB. < 1276475962 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh come on. I won't be impressed until it fits on a floppy. < 1276475974 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll grant you a 2.88MB floppy out of kindness. < 1276475981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: 20 MiB of RAM being used. < 1276475983 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. < 1276475984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like 20 MB. < 1276475988 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Remove everything! < 1276475994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oddly high CPU usage, but eh. < 1276475998 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs comctl.dll??? < 1276476004 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, dang. 20 MB? That's impressive. < 1276476025 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Strictly speaking, all you need is ntkrnl.exe and a handful of binaries. < 1276476042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, you won't be running Win32 at all, but you will have Windows NT running. :) < 1276476059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I have a link to an FTP Firefox download? < 1276476066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That I will use to install, say, Opera, then remove Firefox (it's bloaty!) < 1276476078 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276476105 0 :FredrIQ!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FIQ < 1276476113 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How's about an Opera download? < 1276476115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://ftp.opera.com/pub/opera/win/1053/en/Opera_1053_en_Setup.exe < 1276476119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said FTP. < 1276476123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No web browser, remember? < 1276476124 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. < 1276476129 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276476129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/http/ftp/ should work. < 1276476143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which it does. < 1276476154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, um, I've forgotten how to use ftp.exe < 1276476168 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ftp ftp.opera.com < 1276476174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1276476178 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how big is this WASTEFUL ftp.exe you've included just to satiate your pathetic need to download stuff? < 1276476179 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276476183 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now login as anonymous... < 1276476189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The whole set of command line tools was just 300 KiB :P < 1276476195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then: cd pub/opera/win/1053/en/ < 1276476195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including edit.com and edlin.com and xcopy.com and ... < 1276476196 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin < 1276476204 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get Opera_1053_en_Setup.exe < 1276476209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... IIRC < 1276476296 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox is more bloaty than Opera? < 1276476314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gecko is, like, *made* of bloat. < 1276476337 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1276476382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*It implements its own GUI library that acts nonnatively everywhere*. < 1276476438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All so you can use Javascript/HTML/XUL/CSS as a UI language... < 1276476458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276476614 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1276476709 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which is AWESOME) < 1276477045 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-23-164.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1276477112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://stackoverflow.com/questions/367571/detecting-infinite-loop-in-brainfuck-program < 1276477415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"How come a source code control system is participating in the World Cup ? First, the encryption algorithm and now this. I blame Sepp Blatter" < 1276477423 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://identi.ca/andyc?page=2 < 1276479012 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1276479025 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: The title of that discussion = infinite hilarity. < 1276479036 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flash being buggy? no way. < 1276479286 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That discussion is hilarious. < 1276479294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Can I please, please solve the halting problem?" < 1276479812 0 :charlls!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Saliendo < 1276479951 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, his complex system of analyzing it is failing under one basic flaw: that it is indeed possible to determine whether a program halts by running it and seeing what happens < 1276479973 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, is it possible to make an aperiodic infinite Turing program? < 1276480006 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do all infinite programs necessarily start repeating some identifiable subset of the tape? < 1276480042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if there were only periodic infinite programs then the halting problem would actually be _solvable_ (well, theoretically) < 1276480064 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you could just run it until it repeated < 1276480098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, +[>+] < 1276480118 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: There's an obvious periodic repetition there < 1276480135 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the data on one side is all 0s, the data on the other side is all 1s < 1276480151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, fine, fine. ,[>,] < 1276480162 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1276480167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: doesn't really count < 1276480168 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what I mean < 1276480176 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMs don't have input anyways < 1276480186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, yes. < 1276480380 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you can't < 1276480417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can, unless you keep moving the goalpost which just means we'll have to avoid more and more patterns < 1276480420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now lessee < 1276480465 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My definition would be this: Construct a Turing Machine that will not halt such that at no point in its execution is it possible to prove that it will not halt. < 1276480481 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1276480488 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276480495 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything else would reduce to that < 1276480543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: how do you know it halts if you cannot prove it? < 1276480567 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I didn't say it was provable. I merely posed the question < 1276480590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now if you have an actual proof system in my mind, i believe you can probably use godel's theorem to do it < 1276480628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, construct your turing machine such that is _searches_ for a proof of that system's consistency < 1276480648 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it would be impossible to prove the existence of such a TM < 1276480657 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that would mean you'd proven it wouldn't halt < 1276480666 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would cause it to fail the criteria < 1276480681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, godel's theorem gets around that < 1276480688 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how? < 1276480710 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, hmm < 1276480721 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you could prove the existence of such a machine without ever proving which one it was < 1276480723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the logical system cannot prove its own consistency < 1276480740 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I know the theorem, but how does it apply here? < 1276480751 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oh actually it's "easy" to write down a specific machine given the logic < 1276480793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: basically you cannot prove in your logic that the tm doesn't halt, but _if_ it halts your logic is inconsistent < 1276480794 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? now you have me really confused < 1276480834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well by logic i mean logic + axioms you assume for your math < 1276480913 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let us formally state the hypothesis: "There exists a Turing Machine T which, given an input tape I, will not halt, and, for every whole number N, it is impossible, after T has executed N steps, to prove that it will not halt." < 1276480913 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: it's "easy" (i.e. just tedious work) to write down a turing machine which searches for proofs of a proposition in a specific logical system < 1276480951 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you _must_ state the proof system you assume in order for that to be well-defined < 1276480965 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276480994 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and once you have done that, you can just construct things with godel's method < 1276481056 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, no matter which proof system you choose, proving that a given T and I satisfy the theorem is impossible. < 1276481071 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best you could do is prove that there exists and T and I. < 1276481105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no the T and I are _easy_ to construct given the proof system < 1276481119 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the hard part is interpreting what you actually know about them < 1276481143 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proving that a given T and I satisfy the theorem is contradictory though! < 1276481149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1276481195 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because if you prove that they satisfy the theorem, you prove that they do not halt. And you are not allowed to prove that they do not halt in order for them to satisfy the theorem. < 1276481231 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1276481242 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hence, you could only prove the existence of some T and I < 1276481260 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or disprove it) < 1276481291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my head starts swimming :D < 1276481340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er or what the actual idiom that i mean is < 1276481364 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The non-halting requirement could be removed from the hypothesis, but it's trivial that any halting combination would not satisfy the proof, since after it halts, you can prove that it halts. < 1276481418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not entirely sure proving the existence of some T and I is different from proving that Godel's specifically constructed ones fulfil it < 1276481539 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think both _might_ indirectly amount to proving that your logical system is consistent, in itself (thus it's actually inconsistent) < 1276481555 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::d < 1276481572 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that once you _start_ talking about things being provable in the same system, you have sort of crossed a line < 1276481583 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1276481593 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Godel crossed that line and made off like a bandit < 1276481599 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(a consistent system cannot prove that _anything_ is unprovable in the same system) < 1276481624 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because "something is unprovable" <=> "the system is consistent" < 1276481638 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, doesn't it prove that the Godel statement is unprovable, or do I misunderstand the theorem? < 1276481675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it proves that _if_ the system is consistent, then it's unprovable within it that it is so < 1276481689 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276481690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and _that_ is actually proved inside the system) < 1276481747 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand if it is _inconsistent_ then it's provable that it is. as well as that it isn't. :D < 1276481761 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(inside itself) < 1276481820 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :food -> < 1276482210 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QUEEN OF FRANCE < 1276482217 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I. AM. THE QUEEN. OF FRAME! < 1276482221 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olololol < 1276482223 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1276482602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>+[>>+<<[[<]>->[>]>[>]+>+[<]<]>>[>]<] (maybe) < 1276482694 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276483621 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp6.ogg (played while quite tired, so sorry for all the mistakes :P ) < 1276484096 0 :sshc_!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1276484098 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276484415 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1276484498 0 :sshc_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276485029 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1276485767 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-192-87.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276485864 0 :FIQ!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1276487964 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ping -a 192.168.1.255 < 1276487974 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION runs that command, then turns his volume down. < 1276487999 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm constantly aware of how many devices are on our network. < 1276488016 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. < 1276488019 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Five. < 1276488024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ____ ___ _ _ ____ < 1276488024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| _ \ / _ \| \ | |/ ___| < 1276488024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| |_) | | | | \| | | _ < 1276488024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| __/| |_| | |\ | |_| | < 1276488024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|_| \___/|_| \_|\____| < 1276488081 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a surprising number, as it's usually either two or three. < 1276488094 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :100% packet loss < 1276488109 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My packet loss is about -400% right now! < 1276488121 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For every 100 packets I send out, I get 500 packets back. < 1276488126 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, -400 of them are lost. < 1276488328 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION makes it ping every two seconds instead of every second. < 1276488392 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the -a? < 1276488406 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-a means "beep every time a packet is received". < 1276488427 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276488445 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This can be distracting. :P < 1276488452 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Aiee, how many beeps was that? Only four?" < 1276488466 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any reason that the .255 thing would work on Linux and not Windows? < 1276488478 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No good reason. < 1276488486 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because Windoze is teh sux? ^^ < 1276488490 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's your IP address and subnet mask? < 1276488514 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IP: 192.168.1.105 < 1276488520 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subnet mask: 255.255.255.0 < 1276488586 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you ping 192.168.1.255, you should get packets back. < 1276488595 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I don't know if Windows actually responds to pings on that address. < 1276488645 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shouldn't my router respond? < 1276488713 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, my N1 wants me to use -b < 1276488731 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it seems it ought to. < 1276488759 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This bothers me. I added a new device to the network, and so now ping is saying I'm receiving six packets, but it's only beeping five times. < 1276488795 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On my N1, the router's the only thing that responded < 1276489395 0 :jabb!~grue@71.94.31.166 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276489398 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey all < 1276490139 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION turns on the lights < 1276490152 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*hissssss* < 1276490157 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I DO NOT WISH TO SEE THE LIGHT < 1276490190 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you do _not_ want darkness right now, trust me < 1276490216 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can only astral project in complete silence and darkness. < 1276490247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION peeks anxiously at jabb's ircname < 1276490258 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'snot "graue" < 1276490263 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohyeah < 1276490265 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahah < 1276490269 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No worries, I have a torch. < 1276490274 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, good < 1276490297 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nigRT2KmCE < 1276490312 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sad thing is, I only know about that because of User Friendly < 1276490359 0 :jabb!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: :P < 1276490842 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1276490844 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow < 1276490852 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another 120 stars? wow < 1276493043 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276494095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1276495134 0 :Rugxulo!~rugxulo@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276495353 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276499134 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1276499421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276500548 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1276501028 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276501882 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1276502343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276502399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1276502400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1276503269 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In case anyone cares, I got the chart wrong < 1276503286 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mixed up East and West.. or rather, forgot that East is, for reasons unknown, negative < 1276503902 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :east in what? < 1276504465 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Some shitty virtual world < 1276506219 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1276506275 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: so you got the handedness of the coordinate system wrong? < 1276506302 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, really, just forgot about it. But I thought handedness was rotations? < 1276506370 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm... there's one view where, Y is north, X is east, Z is up, and there's another where Y is up, X is easy, and Z is north < 1276506391 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe that they are refered to as "left handed" and "right handed", but i forget whuch is which < 1276506427 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the latter is the more traditional one in mathematical circles, but the former is more common in computer games (such as the quake engine(s)) < 1276506449 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main difference is which way the crossproduct points, and a couple of other things < 1276506582 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate_system - In three demensions < 1276506587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, hm < 1276506606 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y is up, X is west, Z is north < 1276506652 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or some rotation thereof < 1276506663 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y up is mathematical tradition < 1276506672 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z up is Id tech tradition < 1276506692 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SL uses Z up < 1276506720 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Z up has at least 17 years of history (Doom engine) < 1276506720 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-14-147.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276507102 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. I want to become CPR certified < 1276507313 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did Doom even deal with "up"? I didn't think so (often called 2.5D) < 1276507342 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. you can shoot an enemy up high from down low without adjusting your gun (although I guess some Doom derivatives probably changed that, can't remember) < 1276507342 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure it did, it wasn't flat like Wolfenstein 3D < 1276507355 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was semi-flat, mostly fake, not real 3D like Quake, right? < 1276507361 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep < 1276507362 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does VRML do? < 1276507386 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I don't think VRML has global coordinates? I remember believing that VRML would never have gravity because of a lack of universal coordinates < 1276507407 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there was an "up", you just couldn't have two things on top of each other (although some hacks could simulate it) < 1276507409 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did Rage ever come out yet? (haven't followed it much) < 1276507427 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not yet < 1276507460 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adobe Atmosphere is dead? < 1276507536 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. Active Worlds is mentioned on the VRML page, despite not using VRML in any way < 1276507545 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Unless RenderWare is derived from VRML] < 1276507609 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a reasonably large (by the standards of the time) VRML model of the Helsinki city centre. < 1276507646 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We used to paste an tag for it into a web-based chat-site (which allowed unfiltered HTML), since loading it tended to make everyone's computer pretty frozen-up. < 1276507747 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie is a troll! Shouldn't be surprised, you've trolled here before, although in a less malicious way < 1276507762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, the proper verb is "was". < 1276507890 0 :pineapple!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: points of the map must have a specific minimum and maximum... which is why there are a lot of stairs but no slopes < 1276508158 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is you can shoot the guy at the top at bottom or at top without adjusting your gun, which is easier but somewhat unrealistic ;-) < 1276508215 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, fizzie, haven't heard lately, what's the status of FFI? < 1276508307 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also left- and right-handed variants of the 3d-graphics-usual "x grows left, y grows up, z is depth" that differ in the direction of growth of the z axis. < 1276508371 0 :aschueler!~alec@81.147.141.45 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276508378 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which one is which is easy to remember by pointing a thumb to the X direction and the index finger to the Y; the way the middle finger points in the left (or right) hand (at least in a standard hand with no modifications, and easily) should be Z. < 1276508435 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This image was captured using the print screen key, then saved as a PNG image with Paint.NET." < 1276508439 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If "FFI" refers to what I call "ff" (that interpreter), no news on that front. I don't have any immediate plans right now. < 1276508459 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, ff3 perhaps was the name? (forgets) < 1276508460 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"x grows left" < 1276508461 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1276508468 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's what AW is < 1276508499 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, my copy is from April 17, and I forgot the URL, so ... ;-) < 1276508513 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, though the "3" there is just an accumulator; it's the third attempt now. < 1276508533 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/ff last change Sun, 18 Apr 2010 09:47:06 +0000 < 1276508549 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :w00t, a whole day's extra code! ^_^ < 1276508693 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some fixes, mmm hmmm < 1276508942 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had some uncommitted changes, which I think didn't quite work out right. < 1276509000 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-( < 1276509062 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, there was a mode for non-self-modifying code, but the savings weren't very big. < 1276509088 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :self-modifying Befunge code or the interpreter itself? < 1276509103 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self-modifying Befunge code. Basically, only data-space change with p. < 1276509177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does work just fine, though. < 1276509226 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to hear < 1276509237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the same address now, but it's nothing spectaculatisticar. < 1276509371 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1276509453 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What didn't quite work right was an attempt to keep the top stack value in a separate "register stack_cell top_value" local, as opposed to the actual stack; or possibly I just got tired of making the necessary changes. < 1276509497 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :register as in C keyword? < 1276509521 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'cause I think GCC mostly (maybe completely?!) ignores it < 1276509562 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might; mainly I was expecting to get a difference from the "separate local" bit. < 1276509639 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have simplified !, for example, to just "top_value = !top_value" instead of "top[-1] = !top[-1]; STACK_CHECK_UNOP;". < 1276509681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I should leave optimizing to the optimizer, though; just thought it might be worth a try. < 1276509867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can't completely ignore the keyword, because it has to be illegal to apply & to something that has the register storage-class specifier. Other than that it could well ignore it. < 1276509996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or to be even more nit-picky, it has to cause a diagnostic message.) < 1276510116 0 :gm|lap!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1276510198 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1276510212 0 :gm|lap!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :GreaseMonkey < 1276510533 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"leave optimizing to the optimizer"??? HELL NO! < 1276510534 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1276510553 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why we're in bloatville city, 'cause nobody optimizes anymore < 1276510591 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may be a bad example for modern / "enlightened" programming, but I've recently learned some Pascal < 1276510613 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and heck, TP is fast and small ... beats a lot of other compilers (though doesn't optimize for speed very well, but you get the gist) < 1276510641 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's old and 16-bit and obviously deprecated, BUT!! they accomplished a lot with very little < 1276511328 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long story short: with VP21 I can bind the TP55 (DOS, 8086-friendly) and Win32 (386+, HX-friendly) binaries together < 1276511364 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh, sorry, wrong channel ;-) < 1276511395 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees topic ... "oracles", the database dudes? < 1276511664 0 :aschueler!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Lost terminal < 1276511711 0 :aschueler!~alec@81.147.141.45 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276511980 0 :Zetro!~Zetro@d83-183-202-119.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1276512243 0 :hiato!~nine@dsl-245-62-164.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1276513940 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1276514112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox can't find the server at www.youtube.com. <-- ? < 1276514133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now "500 Internal Server Error" < 1276514603 0 :hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: underflow < 1276515491 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1276518988 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1276520004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:11:03 Y up is mathematical tradition < 1276520004 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01:11:12 Z up is Id tech tradition < 1276520021 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no math is definitely X east, Y north, Z up < 1276520032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(right handed) < 1276520053 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Y is up, X is west, Z is north < 1276520074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically that's also a right-handed one < 1276520199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can choose X and Y in arbitrary directions at 90 degrees of each other, then one of the choices for Z is left- and one is right-handed < 1276520288 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276520408 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : No, the proper verb is "was". < 1276520437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he made the mistake of going out in sunlight, and now he's a small finnish mountain range < 1276520755 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-23-164.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1276520917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay hobbit pun day < 1276521198 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276521375 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1276522309 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276522643 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276526080 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B132FBD.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276526778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and left handed? < 1276526783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it? < 1276526804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why do mathematicians prefer right handed? < 1276526815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just reverse the direction of any one of the axes < 1276526831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and for the second question? < 1276526834 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convention? < 1276526856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there are no specific reasons? IIRC there was something with vector product? < 1276526881 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well but that's just the same convention < 1276526896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that is, vector product being simpler in right handed or something < 1276526909 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no fundamental mathematical reason why we couldn't have chosen left handed instead < 1276526923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276526982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact there's a thought experiment about communicating with aliens... < 1276527001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1276527004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about it < 1276527043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for oerjan's duck to finish typing ;P < 1276527063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i think they might have to be in another universe for the full effect, but anyway < 1276527096 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to actually communicate to the aliens _which_ way we consider left and which we consider right handed < 1276527110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276527117 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without a common physical reference point < 1276527124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, an image? < 1276527149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming they use visual stuff < 1276527156 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you transmit such an image, assuming you had just a bit channel? < 1276527170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, as a bitmap? < 1276527185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :black and white I presume < 1276527207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but how would you tell them which directions the bitmap should be laid out in? < 1276527221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well that is 2D isn't it? < 1276527241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you make a frame or such to indicate the width/height < 1276527253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means it can be laid out in two ways, they will get an image that can be rotated < 1276527273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the frame they can see it match up only in one way < 1276527314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then depict a 3D rendering of a coordinate system < 1276527321 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah but how would they know they hadn't accidentally constructed the mirror image instead? < 1276527322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :showing the axis < 1276527334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how do you mean? < 1276527351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that be possible I mean < 1276527396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either you could confuse x with y in the image, in which case you would get garbage out < 1276527410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you could rotate the thing by 90° < 1276527419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well let's say the aliens count x axis as pointing the opposite way of ours... < 1276527420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait, you could start from bottom or from top < 1276527424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1276527443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, okay then, make a coordinate system using our galaxy and some of the close ones < 1276527450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in right handed < 1276527462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be a common physical reference point yeah < 1276527512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now imagine the communication is through a tiny wormhole into a different spacetime... < 1276527532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but don't you think it would be easier to send an image of a person pointing to the right hand saying "right" in klingon? After all, we all know aliens are mostly just like humans + bad masks ;P < 1276527565 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by that argument, we also know there are plenty of mirror universes :D < 1276527573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1276527614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, anyway, I think that before establishing math stuff it might be better to establish language < 1276527633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i was sort of assuming that was done already < 1276527637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276527667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, does it matter which way around the axis are put though < 1276527679 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1276527688 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you reverse one axis, you reverse handedness < 1276527704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yep and? why is it important < 1276527742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, also, is there any way except using physical reference points? < 1276527782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm, what about molecules, describe the left/right handed variants there + their effects? < 1276527801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, possibly with the process for making one of them (but not getting the other) < 1276527809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would work assuming chemistry is the same < 1276527839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, problem solved :) < 1276527846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no molecules won't work, you could easily make molecules mirrored and they would be practically indistinguishable as long you also mirrored everything you use to test them < 1276527872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm < 1276527918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, then what is the solution? < 1276527922 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw there's a book about this stuff, "The ambidextrous universe" < 1276527964 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is, probably, a way using fundamental physical laws, assuming their spacetime has the same ones. there are subtle particle physics differences between left and right < 1276528016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambidextrous_Universe this is what gardner called the ozma problem < 1276528125 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i believe there are even newer differences found that work even for the antimatter case mentioned in the final paragraph (so called CP violation) < 1276528177 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait that isn't that new either < 1276528184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1964) < 1276528207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh same year as the original book < 1276528306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276528601 0 :Zetro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276528605 0 :lament!~lament@S0106002312fa554a.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276528664 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276530052 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1276530096 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1276530470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16:40:29 * oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night) < 1276530477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and he is in my timezone... < 1276532380 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you making fun of your country's senior citizens? < 1276532382 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tisk tisk. < 1276532456 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276532468 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a weird urge to install OpenSolaris. < 1276532472 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone talk me out of it. < 1276532552 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOIT < 1276532552 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOIT < 1276532564 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then watch it stagnate and cryyyyyyyyyyyy < 1276532593 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on. < 1276532625 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Oracle hath seen OpenSolaris' demise. < 1276532631 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(GET THE PUN OMG) < 1276532640 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can see its final days! < 1276532648 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? < 1276532655 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oracle are shutting it down? < 1276532667 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Officially nothing has been said. < 1276532674 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unofficially? < 1276532688 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, how do you shut down an open-source project? < 1276532698 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People will still work on it if interested. < 1276532707 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenSolaris is about as open as Darwin. < 1276532725 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is to say, uselessly open. Well, I guess by now they actually have a full boot process that's open ... that's "something" < 1276532740 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, unofficially, NOTHING has been said. With emphasis. Nobody finds that promising :P < 1276532959 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OpenSolaris at least has a couple of 3rd-party distributions. < 1276532965 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darwin doesn't. < 1276533096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1276533189 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it does seem to be stagnating. < 1276533211 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since 10.03 hasn't seen the light of day < 1276534401 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276535454 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1276535872 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's this Per Borgman guy? < 1276535908 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Honestly, I need an OS to play with. < 1276535913 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, *BSD. < 1276535920 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why didn't I think of that? < 1276536995 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1276537602 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1276537935 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276539373 0 :augur!~augur@c-68-50-128-165.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276541029 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :herlo < 1276541034 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is everyone? < 1276541231 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION needs to learn to write less-fragile code < 1276541238 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-192-87.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276541390 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276541559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[====80%= ] finished my latest esolang. < 1276541571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoo. < 1276541593 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!~nice@p5B133886.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276541602 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speccing, or implementation? < 1276541633 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It at that "find just the right semantics to add to make it Turing-complete, without making it so powerful it's not interesting or so barely-powerful-enough that you're stuck writing tag systems in it." < 1276541646 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tag programs? < 1276541652 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Both. I got to a nice point in the spec, so I implemented what I had so far. < 1276541686 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_system < 1276541798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got nothing against tag systems, but... I keep thinking there's got to be something which is a more idiomatic fit with what I'm doing. Something more like simple machine language programming actually, like a 6502. < 1276541811 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that's what I'm up to, eso-wise. < 1276542128 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276542548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there? panorama ahead < 1276542577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, this is scaled to 30% http://omploader.org/vNGx0Mw < 1276542674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 2*pi radians < 1276542676 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276542828 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1276542964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'm well aware of the ghost in it. < 1276543019 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your HOUSE is HAUNTED, eh? < 1276543020 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nicey. I should probably some day try to capture the view from our balcony. < 1276543054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1276543071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well there is me behind the camera being reflected in the windo < 1276543074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :window* < 1276543085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, very fuzzy and you need to zoom to see it < 1276543103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, want the full 73 MB deflate compressed tiff? 8 bits per channel < 1276543134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the window that is split across the edge that is) < 1276543140 0 :leBMD!~chatzilla@174-23-2-121.slkc.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1276543166 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure I exactly need that, it's not like I'm planning to make a poster out of it or anything. < 1276543370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah good, it is CC-by-nc-nd < 1276543385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(contact author for other licensing options) < 1276543407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :put it in the jpeg comment < 1276543475 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1276543838 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. We got this gift card (the usual credit-card-sized magneto-strip card) to a consumer-electronics/domestic-appliances/etc. store when purchasing a refrigerator back in summer 2008. The card has "valid for three years" printed on it, but now when we planned to go use it, turns out the store has refocusionized their core competences, and now only sell stuff via their webshop; all their physical retail outlets have been closed. < 1276543863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm lacking suitable slots to stick the card in, and I doubt it'd work very well even if I had a stripe-reader. < 1276543869 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :contact customer service and threaten to sue them; don't actually plan to make good on your threat < 1276543879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they'll likely give you your discount anyway just to get you to stop annoying them < 1276543917 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sent a reasonably friendly "how does this work?" email to customer service already; guess I can still start to be annoying if they're uncooperative. < 1276543987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how they're going to validate the amount of money the gift card has, though. Possibly they still have some sort of a database of those. I doubt they'll just believe my word. < 1276544024 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they might, though, since it's only 30 eur. < 1276544174 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1276544294 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The store's also been bought (or maybe it even originally was owned) by a Norwegian corporation (Elkjøp; itself part of a larger British corporation, DSG International plc, but that's probably not relevant any more), which also owns another Finnish consumer-electronics brand (Gigantti) that still has existing physical locations; it's borderline possible their gift card systems are compatible. (At least their webshops seem to run the < 1276544294 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same code.) < 1276544364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is "Gigantti" related to Swedish "El-giganten" in any way? < 1276544400 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could be. < 1276544424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The websites look suspiciously similar, at least. < 1276544433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.elgiganten.se/ vs. http://www.gigantti.fi/ < 1276544447 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both seem to be part of Elkjøp. < 1276544466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes I guess they are related < 1276544498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't the Finnish one have any Swedish part? < 1276544507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought most stuff was dual-language in Finland? < 1276544521 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything official is. < 1276544534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so just govt? < 1276544545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not very many corporations (at least those with complicated websites) bother with a whole Swedish localization. < 1276544602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what stops fake sites from displaying those "verified by VISA" images? < 1276544616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing, right? < 1276544628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so utterly pointless < 1276544673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You probably notice it when they start asking for credit card number instead of redirecting to the verified-by-VISA systemagics, though. < 1276544694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276544701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never used it < 1276544702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so meh < 1276544715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, would your average windows user notice though? < 1276544716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bet not < 1276544738 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if the card is set to verified-by-VISA-only, they also can't charge the card without going through it. < 1276544758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, well sure, but that is charging < 1276544761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite recall the specifics, but I think the point there is that it redirects at one point to the issuing bank's own web-store, which will then ask for the usual online-banking credentials before authorizing the payment. < 1276544765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is different, no? < 1276544774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1276544846 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would assume most VISA cards are set to "allow generic online shopping too", though, in which case I guess it is pretty pointless. < 1276544890 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The (now discontinued) "VISA Electron" cards given out by several Finnish banks were set to "only work online for shops that do Verified-by-VISA". < 1276544916 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is a bit annoying, since at least amazon.com/de/co.uk/whatever didn't do verified-by-VISA. < 1276544941 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, there's more than just a random bitmap. < 1276544964 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/cpressey/louie.html#Goldbach < 1276544973 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think MasterCard has an identical thing, too... SecureCode or somesuch. < 1276544992 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3-D_Secure < 1276545046 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc5-sgyl29-2-0-cust220.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1276545157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(What a pretentious name.) < 1276545545 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I love header spoofs. < 1276545616 0 :leBMD!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I ever tell you about that time with that one girl and the glow-in-the dark paint? < 1276545656 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :moveobjects on < 1276545661 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry, wrong wndw < 1276545665 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1276545669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 3D? < 1276545736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three domains, not three dimensions. < 1276545974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1276546357 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow Chromium is ugly < 1276546376 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after getting my site working in IE6, I'm trying various other browsers < 1276546397 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE6, wow < 1276546410 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't manage to get IE7 working, so I had to test in IE6 < 1276546420 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that much needed changing, actually < 1276546430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was mostly an insane workaround for some insane bugs I needed < 1276546438 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IE6 is pretty drain-bamaged < 1276546448 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Microsoft is trying hard to kill it < 1276546473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since most web development just ignores it at this point anyway < 1276546474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, say e is a