00:00:02 AnMaster: your point? 00:00:16 pineapple, well -j is "more than one job in parallel" 00:00:38 fucked if i can remember all of the options to make 00:01:13 nslookup? lpr? finger? ftp? 00:01:15 debug? 00:01:20 THESE ARE ALL PROGRAMS A WINDOWS USER DOES NOT NEED, FRIENDS. 00:01:28 oh. they're only 300 kilobytes 00:01:30 okay you can have them 00:01:43 a poweruser might need them... but they likely have better alternatives 00:01:58 then agaon 00:02:05 a power user is likely not using windows xp 00:02:06 extra fonts... georgia is not rarely used! 00:02:17 OTOH 1.92 megs... and it obliterates Impact and Comic Sans... 00:02:18 yeah delete it 00:02:28 obliterates? 00:02:44 gets rid of 00:02:47 Help Engine? HAHAHA 00:02:48 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:02:49 EXPERTS NEED NO HELP 00:03:37 Search Assistant: "That annoying animated dog in the search window." 00:03:38 Says it all/ 00:03:39 *all. 00:04:25 alise: i take it you're ok with using the classic windows theme 00:04:41 i wonder if the xp theme can be removed 00:05:02 yes 00:05:10 size? 00:14:08 dunno 00:17:26 alise, when was the G3 made? 00:17:52 G3 what 00:17:59 Mac, I think 00:19:00 alise: Hmm. Any reason for slimming down XP so much? 00:19:15 pikhq: Fun. 00:19:19 Sgeo: iBook? iMac? 00:19:26 Not sure 00:20:22 "Because the Mac cannot currently do multi-user VR. The current blaxxun Contact (needed for 3D in Cybertown) requires the Microsoft COM architecture. Microsoft has announced that they plan to port it to the Mac. However, until there is a solid COM implementation on the Mac, the Macintosh version is not likely to be developed. However, blaxxun Contact should run in the Windows 95 emulation on the latest Macs (e.g. G3) - albeit slowly. " 00:20:24 Fair enough. 00:21:11 Had to have been written before 2004 or so, since the same page claims that Cybertown is free 00:21:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:21:30 Sgeo: eh, old. 00:21:35 g3 imac is first imac 1998 00:22:54 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:23:25 * alise lets nlite rrrrrrrrrrrrrrip 00:24:07 REMOVING EVERYTHING 00:24:08 AHAHAHAHAHAH 00:24:09 A 00:24:12 s/\n//g 00:24:17 err 00:24:19 i/\n/ 00:26:36 pikhq: this thing will install on an original ibm pc when i'm done with it 00:27:41 -!- charlls has joined. 00:27:54 alise: So... DOS then. 00:27:55 holy shit 00:28:00 ? 00:28:02 pikhq: "Finished! Total size is 112.53MB" 00:28:09 "The installation was reduced by 493.76MB." 00:28:19 Spiffy. You got it smaller than Slax. 00:28:28 Of course, Slax probably includes a whole lot more. 00:28:49 * alise saves MiniXP.iso 00:28:54 pikhq: this thing doesn't even have a defragmenter 00:28:56 or a calculator 00:28:59 Like a calculator... 00:29:04 I christen it "MiniXP". 00:29:14 And all of Busybox... 00:29:27 This isn't even all, though. 00:29:33 Or, wait, yes it is. 00:29:34 But whatever. 00:29:49 I strongly suspect you yanked out IE. 00:30:23 pikhq: ...maybe 00:30:25 So you can replace it with the Mozilla ActiveX control or something... 00:30:29 Err, actually, did I remember to? 00:31:19 Ehh, probaly. 00:31:20 *probably 00:32:24 pikhq: Hell, I even removed the *fancy installer*. It has a black background and the Windows 2000 style now. 00:32:31 Awesome! 00:32:37 That is such a better installer. 00:32:42 Also significantly faster. 00:32:51 pikhq: Of course there is one problem. 00:33:00 (yes, the fancy installer is absurdly slow for no good reason) 00:33:06 I don't think I will get a chance to test this until next week! :-( 00:33:18 Should install in like 10 minutes. 00:33:23 ...true. 00:33:47 Actually faster; that's just the speed gain you get from removing the fancy installer. 00:34:19 pikhq: haha lol @ how quick setup is copying files went 00:34:26 aaand it's at 90% 00:34:29 aand it's done 00:34:34 *aand 00:34:48 pikhq: Of course, this thing probably has tons of little incompatibilities that you will grow to hate in time. 00:35:08 Yes, but it should support Cygwin. 00:35:10 Hell, for a start, you need to download a browser via *FTP*! 00:35:35 The idea of having Windows XP solely for a Cygwin install amuses me. ;) 00:36:13 And I christen thee new installation: mini. 00:36:31 Man, if only it wasn't illegal to sell this. 00:38:15 pikhq: Wow, it logs in in like... 0 seconds. 00:38:52 Congrats, you removed the bloat. 00:39:02 I'd imagine you could run that sucker on a 386 with ease. 00:39:04 C:\WINDOWS weighs in at 264 MiB. 00:39:22 Oh come on. I won't be impressed until it fits on a floppy. 00:39:34 I'll grant you a 2.88MB floppy out of kindness. 00:39:41 pikhq: 20 MiB of RAM being used. 00:39:43 Well. 00:39:44 More like 20 MB. 00:39:48 alise: Remove everything! 00:39:54 Oddly high CPU usage, but eh. 00:39:58 Who needs comctl.dll??? 00:40:04 But, dang. 20 MB? That's impressive. 00:40:25 Gregor: Strictly speaking, all you need is ntkrnl.exe and a handful of binaries. 00:40:42 Granted, you won't be running Win32 at all, but you will have Windows NT running. :) 00:40:59 Can I have a link to an FTP Firefox download? 00:41:06 That I will use to install, say, Opera, then remove Firefox (it's bloaty!) 00:41:18 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:41:45 -!- FredrIQ has changed nick to FIQ. 00:41:53 How's about an Opera download? 00:41:55 http://ftp.opera.com/pub/opera/win/1053/en/Opera_1053_en_Setup.exe 00:41:59 I said FTP. 00:42:03 No web browser, remember? 00:42:04 Argh. 00:42:09 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:42:09 s/http/ftp/ should work. 00:42:23 Which it does. 00:42:34 Okay, um, I've forgotten how to use ftp.exe 00:42:48 ftp ftp.opera.com 00:42:54 Right. 00:42:58 And how big is this WASTEFUL ftp.exe you've included just to satiate your pathetic need to download stuff? 00:42:59 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 00:43:03 Now login as anonymous... 00:43:09 Gregor: The whole set of command line tools was just 300 KiB :P 00:43:15 Then: cd pub/opera/win/1053/en/ 00:43:15 Including edit.com and edlin.com and xcopy.com and ... 00:43:16 bin 00:43:24 get Opera_1053_en_Setup.exe 00:43:29 ... IIRC 00:44:56 Firefox is more bloaty than Opera? 00:45:14 Gecko is, like, *made* of bloat. 00:45:37 o.O 00:46:22 *It implements its own GUI library that acts nonnatively everywhere*. 00:47:18 All so you can use Javascript/HTML/XUL/CSS as a UI language... 00:47:38 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:50:14 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:51:49 (Which is AWESOME) 00:57:25 -!- cheater99 has joined. 00:58:32 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/367571/detecting-infinite-loop-in-brainfuck-program 01:03:35 "How come a source code control system is participating in the World Cup ? First, the encryption algorithm and now this. I blame Sepp Blatter" 01:03:43 http://identi.ca/andyc?page=2 01:30:12 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:30:25 Sgeo: The title of that discussion = infinite hilarity. 01:30:36 Flash being buggy? no way. 01:34:46 Sgeo: That discussion is hilarious. 01:34:54 "Can I please, please solve the halting problem?" 01:43:32 -!- charlls has quit (Quit: Saliendo). 01:45:51 yeah, his complex system of analyzing it is failing under one basic flaw: that it is indeed possible to determine whether a program halts by running it and seeing what happens 01:46:13 incidentally, is it possible to make an aperiodic infinite Turing program? 01:46:46 or do all infinite programs necessarily start repeating some identifiable subset of the tape? 01:47:22 coppro: if there were only periodic infinite programs then the halting problem would actually be _solvable_ (well, theoretically) 01:47:44 because you could just run it until it repeated 01:48:18 coppro, +[>+] 01:48:38 pikhq: There's an obvious periodic repetition there 01:48:55 the data on one side is all 0s, the data on the other side is all 1s 01:49:11 Oh, fine, fine. ,[>,] 01:49:22 lol 01:49:27 pikhq: doesn't really count 01:49:28 you know what I mean 01:49:36 TMs don't have input anyways 01:49:46 Yes, yes. 01:53:00 I think you can't 01:53:37 sure you can, unless you keep moving the goalpost which just means we'll have to avoid more and more patterns 01:53:40 now lessee 01:54:25 My definition would be this: Construct a Turing Machine that will not halt such that at no point in its execution is it possible to prove that it will not halt. 01:54:41 wait 01:54:48 yeah 01:54:55 anything else would reduce to that 01:55:43 coppro: how do you know it halts if you cannot prove it? 01:56:07 oerjan: I didn't say it was provable. I merely posed the question 01:56:30 now if you have an actual proof system in my mind, i believe you can probably use godel's theorem to do it 01:57:08 basically, construct your turing machine such that is _searches_ for a proof of that system's consistency 01:57:28 No, it would be impossible to prove the existence of such a TM 01:57:37 since that would mean you'd proven it wouldn't halt 01:57:46 which would cause it to fail the criteria 01:58:01 coppro: no, godel's theorem gets around that 01:58:08 how? 01:58:30 actually, hmm 01:58:41 I suppose you could prove the existence of such a machine without ever proving which one it was 01:58:43 because the logical system cannot prove its own consistency 01:59:00 yeah, I know the theorem, but how does it apply here? 01:59:11 coppro: oh actually it's "easy" to write down a specific machine given the logic 01:59:53 coppro: basically you cannot prove in your logic that the tm doesn't halt, but _if_ it halts your logic is inconsistent 01:59:54 huh? now you have me really confused 02:00:34 well by logic i mean logic + axioms you assume for your math 02:01:53 let us formally state the hypothesis: "There exists a Turing Machine T which, given an input tape I, will not halt, and, for every whole number N, it is impossible, after T has executed N steps, to prove that it will not halt." 02:01:53 coppro: it's "easy" (i.e. just tedious work) to write down a turing machine which searches for proofs of a proposition in a specific logical system 02:02:31 coppro: you _must_ state the proof system you assume in order for that to be well-defined 02:02:45 ah 02:03:14 and once you have done that, you can just construct things with godel's method 02:04:16 in any case, no matter which proof system you choose, proving that a given T and I satisfy the theorem is impossible. 02:04:31 The best you could do is prove that there exists and T and I. 02:05:05 um no the T and I are _easy_ to construct given the proof system 02:05:19 the hard part is interpreting what you actually know about them 02:05:43 Proving that a given T and I satisfy the theorem is contradictory though! 02:05:49 yeah 02:06:35 Because if you prove that they satisfy the theorem, you prove that they do not halt. And you are not allowed to prove that they do not halt in order for them to satisfy the theorem. 02:07:11 oh well 02:07:22 hence, you could only prove the existence of some T and I 02:07:40 (or disprove it) 02:08:11 my head starts swimming :D 02:09:00 er or what the actual idiom that i mean is 02:09:24 The non-halting requirement could be removed from the hypothesis, but it's trivial that any halting combination would not satisfy the proof, since after it halts, you can prove that it halts. 02:10:18 i'm not entirely sure proving the existence of some T and I is different from proving that Godel's specifically constructed ones fulfil it 02:12:19 i think both _might_ indirectly amount to proving that your logical system is consistent, in itself (thus it's actually inconsistent) 02:12:35 :d 02:12:52 given that once you _start_ talking about things being provable in the same system, you have sort of crossed a line 02:13:03 true 02:13:13 but Godel crossed that line and made off like a bandit 02:13:19 (a consistent system cannot prove that _anything_ is unprovable in the same system) 02:13:44 because "something is unprovable" <=> "the system is consistent" 02:13:58 uh, doesn't it prove that the Godel statement is unprovable, or do I misunderstand the theorem? 02:14:35 no, it proves that _if_ the system is consistent, then it's unprovable within it that it is so 02:14:49 ah 02:14:50 (and _that_ is actually proved inside the system) 02:15:47 on the other hand if it is _inconsistent_ then it's provable that it is. as well as that it isn't. :D 02:16:01 (inside itself) 02:17:00 food -> 02:23:30 QUEEN OF FRANCE 02:23:37 I. AM. THE QUEEN. OF FRAME! 02:23:41 olololol 02:23:43 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Quit: leaving). 02:30:02 >+[>>+<<[[<]>->[>]>[>]+>+[<]<]>>[>]<] (maybe) 02:31:34 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:47:01 Now soliciting opinions on http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp6.ogg (played while quite tired, so sorry for all the mistakes :P ) 02:54:56 -!- sshc_ has joined. 02:54:58 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:00:15 -!- sshc has joined. 03:01:38 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:10:29 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:22:47 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:24:24 -!- FIQ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 03:59:24 ping -a 192.168.1.255 03:59:34 * uorygl runs that command, then turns his volume down. 03:59:59 Now I'm constantly aware of how many devices are on our network. 04:00:16 Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. Dit-dit-dit-dit-dit. 04:00:19 Five. 04:00:24 ____ ___ _ _ ____ 04:00:24 | _ \ / _ \| \ | |/ ___| 04:00:24 | |_) | | | | \| | | _ 04:00:24 | __/| |_| | |\ | |_| | 04:00:24 |_| \___/|_| \_|\____| 04:01:21 This is a surprising number, as it's usually either two or three. 04:01:34 100% packet loss 04:01:49 My packet loss is about -400% right now! 04:02:01 For every 100 packets I send out, I get 500 packets back. 04:02:06 Thus, -400 of them are lost. 04:05:28 * uorygl makes it ping every two seconds instead of every second. 04:06:32 what's the -a? 04:06:46 -a means "beep every time a packet is received". 04:07:07 ah 04:07:25 This can be distracting. :P 04:07:32 "Aiee, how many beeps was that? Only four?" 04:07:46 Is there any reason that the .255 thing would work on Linux and not Windows? 04:07:58 No good reason. 04:08:06 Because Windoze is teh sux? ^^ 04:08:10 What's your IP address and subnet mask? 04:08:34 IP: 192.168.1.105 04:08:40 Subnet mask: 255.255.255.0 04:09:46 So if you ping 192.168.1.255, you should get packets back. 04:09:55 Though I don't know if Windows actually responds to pings on that address. 04:10:45 Shouldn't my router respond? 04:11:53 Hm, my N1 wants me to use -b 04:12:11 Yeah, it seems it ought to. 04:12:39 This bothers me. I added a new device to the network, and so now ping is saying I'm receiving six packets, but it's only beeping five times. 04:13:15 On my N1, the router's the only thing that responded 04:23:15 -!- jabb has joined. 04:23:18 hey all 04:35:39 * Sgeo turns on the lights 04:35:52 *hissssss* 04:35:57 I DO NOT WISH TO SEE THE LIGHT 04:36:30 Gregor: you do _not_ want darkness right now, trust me 04:36:56 I can only astral project in complete silence and darkness. 04:37:27 * oerjan peeks anxiously at jabb's ircname 04:37:38 'snot "graue" 04:37:43 Ohyeah 04:37:45 Hahah 04:37:49 No worries, I have a torch. 04:37:54 good, good 04:38:17 Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nigRT2KmCE 04:38:32 The sad thing is, I only know about that because of User Friendly 04:39:19 oerjan: :P 04:47:22 ... 04:47:24 wow 04:47:32 another 120 stars? wow 05:24:03 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 05:41:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:58:54 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 06:02:33 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:05:34 -!- tombom has joined. 07:10:21 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:29:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:37:08 -!- lament has joined. 07:51:22 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:29 In case anyone cares, I got the chart wrong 08:14:46 I mixed up East and West.. or rather, forgot that East is, for reasons unknown, negative 08:25:02 east in what? 08:34:25 Some shitty virtual world 09:03:39 -!- lament has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:04:35 Sgeo: so you got the handedness of the coordinate system wrong? 09:05:02 Or, really, just forgot about it. But I thought handedness was rotations? 09:06:10 umm... there's one view where, Y is north, X is east, Z is up, and there's another where Y is up, X is easy, and Z is north 09:06:31 i believe that they are refered to as "left handed" and "right handed", but i forget whuch is which 09:07:07 i think the latter is the more traditional one in mathematical circles, but the former is more common in computer games (such as the quake engine(s)) 09:07:29 the main difference is which way the crossproduct points, and a couple of other things 09:09:42 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartesian_coordinate_system - In three demensions 09:09:47 Um, hm 09:10:06 Y is up, X is west, Z is north 09:10:52 or some rotation thereof 09:11:03 Y up is mathematical tradition 09:11:12 Z up is Id tech tradition 09:11:32 SL uses Z up 09:12:00 Z up has at least 17 years of history (Doom engine) 09:12:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:18:22 Hm. I want to become CPR certified 09:21:53 did Doom even deal with "up"? I didn't think so (often called 2.5D) 09:22:22 e.g. you can shoot an enemy up high from down low without adjusting your gun (although I guess some Doom derivatives probably changed that, can't remember) 09:22:22 Sure it did, it wasn't flat like Wolfenstein 3D 09:22:35 it was semi-flat, mostly fake, not real 3D like Quake, right? 09:22:41 Yep 09:22:42 What does VRML do? 09:23:06 Oh, I don't think VRML has global coordinates? I remember believing that VRML would never have gravity because of a lack of universal coordinates 09:23:27 But there was an "up", you just couldn't have two things on top of each other (although some hacks could simulate it) 09:23:29 did Rage ever come out yet? (haven't followed it much) 09:23:47 Not yet 09:24:20 Adobe Atmosphere is dead? 09:25:36 Hm. Active Worlds is mentioned on the VRML page, despite not using VRML in any way 09:25:45 [Unless RenderWare is derived from VRML] 09:26:49 There was a reasonably large (by the standards of the time) VRML model of the Helsinki city centre. 09:27:26 We used to paste an

tag for it into a web-based chat-site (which allowed unfiltered HTML), since loading it tended to make everyone's computer pretty frozen-up. 09:29:07 fizzie is a troll! Shouldn't be surprised, you've trolled here before, although in a less malicious way 09:29:22 No, the proper verb is "was". 09:31:30 Rugxulo: points of the map must have a specific minimum and maximum... which is why there are a lot of stairs but no slopes 09:35:58 the point is you can shoot the guy at the top at bottom or at top without adjusting your gun, which is easier but somewhat unrealistic ;-) 09:36:55 BTW, fizzie, haven't heard lately, what's the status of FFI? 09:38:27 There's also left- and right-handed variants of the 3d-graphics-usual "x grows left, y grows up, z is depth" that differ in the direction of growth of the z axis. 09:39:31 -!- aschueler has joined. 09:39:38 Which one is which is easy to remember by pointing a thumb to the X direction and the index finger to the Y; the way the middle finger points in the left (or right) hand (at least in a standard hand with no modifications, and easily) should be Z. 09:40:35 "This image was captured using the print screen key, then saved as a PNG image with Paint.NET." 09:40:39 If "FFI" refers to what I call "ff" (that interpreter), no news on that front. I don't have any immediate plans right now. 09:40:59 oops, ff3 perhaps was the name? (forgets) 09:41:00 "x grows left" 09:41:01 Huh. 09:41:08 I guess that's what AW is 09:41:39 fizzie, my copy is from April 17, and I forgot the URL, so ... ;-) 09:41:53 Yes, though the "3" there is just an accumulator; it's the third attempt now. 09:42:13 http://git.zem.fi/ff last change Sun, 18 Apr 2010 09:47:06 +0000 09:42:29 w00t, a whole day's extra code! ^_^ 09:44:53 some fixes, mmm hmmm 09:49:02 I had some uncommitted changes, which I think didn't quite work out right. 09:50:00 :-( 09:51:02 Right, there was a mode for non-self-modifying code, but the savings weren't very big. 09:51:28 self-modifying Befunge code or the interpreter itself? 09:51:43 Self-modifying Befunge code. Basically, only data-space change with p. 09:52:57 It does work just fine, though. 09:53:46 good to hear 09:53:57 It's in the same address now, but it's nothing spectaculatisticar. 09:56:11 k 09:57:33 What didn't quite work right was an attempt to keep the top stack value in a separate "register stack_cell top_value" local, as opposed to the actual stack; or possibly I just got tired of making the necessary changes. 09:58:17 register as in C keyword? 09:58:41 'cause I think GCC mostly (maybe completely?!) ignores it 09:59:22 It might; mainly I was expecting to get a difference from the "separate local" bit. 10:00:39 It would have simplified !, for example, to just "top_value = !top_value" instead of "top[-1] = !top[-1]; STACK_CHECK_UNOP;". 10:01:21 I guess I should leave optimizing to the optimizer, though; just thought it might be worth a try. 10:04:27 It can't completely ignore the keyword, because it has to be illegal to apply & to something that has the register storage-class specifier. Other than that it could well ignore it. 10:06:36 (Or to be even more nit-picky, it has to cause a diagnostic message.) 10:08:36 -!- gm|lap has joined. 10:09:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 10:10:12 -!- gm|lap has changed nick to GreaseMonkey. 10:15:33 "leave optimizing to the optimizer"??? HELL NO! 10:15:34 ;-) 10:15:53 that's why we're in bloatville city, 'cause nobody optimizes anymore 10:16:31 this may be a bad example for modern / "enlightened" programming, but I've recently learned some Pascal 10:16:53 and heck, TP is fast and small ... beats a lot of other compilers (though doesn't optimize for speed very well, but you get the gist) 10:17:21 it's old and 16-bit and obviously deprecated, BUT!! they accomplished a lot with very little 10:28:48 long story short: with VP21 I can bind the TP55 (DOS, 8086-friendly) and Win32 (386+, HX-friendly) binaries together 10:29:24 argh, sorry, wrong channel ;-) 10:29:55 * Rugxulo sees topic ... "oracles", the database dudes? 10:34:24 -!- aschueler has quit (Quit: Lost terminal). 10:35:11 -!- aschueler has joined. 10:39:40 -!- Zetro has joined. 10:44:03 -!- hiato has joined. 11:12:20 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 11:15:12 Firefox can't find the server at www.youtube.com. <-- ? 11:15:33 and now "500 Internal Server Error" 11:23:23 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: underflow). 11:38:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 12:36:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:53:24 01:11:03 Y up is mathematical tradition 12:53:24 01:11:12 Z up is Id tech tradition 12:53:41 um no math is definitely X east, Y north, Z up 12:53:52 (right handed) 12:54:13 Y is up, X is west, Z is north 12:54:34 technically that's also a right-handed one 12:56:39 you can choose X and Y in arbitrary directions at 90 degrees of each other, then one of the choices for Z is left- and one is right-handed 12:58:08 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:00:08 No, the proper verb is "was". 13:00:37 he made the mistake of going out in sunlight, and now he's a small finnish mountain range 13:05:55 -!- cheater99 has joined. 13:08:37 yay hobbit pun day 13:13:18 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:16:15 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 13:31:49 -!- rodgort has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:37:23 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:34:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 14:46:18 oerjan, and left handed? 14:46:23 what about it? 14:46:44 and why do mathematicians prefer right handed? 14:46:55 just reverse the direction of any one of the axes 14:47:11 oerjan, and for the second question? 14:47:14 convention? 14:47:36 oerjan, there are no specific reasons? IIRC there was something with vector product? 14:48:01 well but that's just the same convention 14:48:16 oerjan, that is, vector product being simpler in right handed or something 14:48:29 there's no fundamental mathematical reason why we couldn't have chosen left handed instead 14:48:43 hm 14:49:42 in fact there's a thought experiment about communicating with aliens... 14:50:01 oh? 14:50:04 oerjan, what about it 14:50:43 * AnMaster waits for oerjan's duck to finish typing ;P 14:51:03 hm i think they might have to be in another universe for the full effect, but anyway 14:51:36 it's hard to actually communicate to the aliens _which_ way we consider left and which we consider right handed 14:51:50 hm 14:51:57 without a common physical reference point 14:52:04 oerjan, an image? 14:52:29 assuming they use visual stuff 14:52:36 how would you transmit such an image, assuming you had just a bit channel? 14:52:50 oerjan, as a bitmap? 14:53:05 black and white I presume 14:53:27 ah but how would you tell them which directions the bitmap should be laid out in? 14:53:41 oerjan, well that is 2D isn't it? 14:54:01 so you make a frame or such to indicate the width/height 14:54:13 that means it can be laid out in two ways, they will get an image that can be rotated 14:54:33 from the frame they can see it match up only in one way 14:55:14 then depict a 3D rendering of a coordinate system 14:55:21 ah but how would they know they hadn't accidentally constructed the mirror image instead? 14:55:22 showing the axis 14:55:34 oerjan, how do you mean? 14:55:51 how would that be possible I mean 14:56:36 either you could confuse x with y in the image, in which case you would get garbage out 14:56:50 or you could rotate the thing by 90° 14:56:59 well let's say the aliens count x axis as pointing the opposite way of ours... 14:57:00 hm wait, you could start from bottom or from top 14:57:04 good point 14:57:23 oerjan, okay then, make a coordinate system using our galaxy and some of the close ones 14:57:30 in right handed 14:57:42 that would be a common physical reference point yeah 14:58:32 now imagine the communication is through a tiny wormhole into a different spacetime... 14:58:52 oerjan, but don't you think it would be easier to send an image of a person pointing to the right hand saying "right" in klingon? After all, we all know aliens are mostly just like humans + bad masks ;P 14:59:25 by that argument, we also know there are plenty of mirror universes :D 14:59:33 true 15:00:14 oerjan, anyway, I think that before establishing math stuff it might be better to establish language 15:00:33 oh i was sort of assuming that was done already 15:00:37 ah 15:01:07