←2010-06-14 2010-06-15 2010-06-16→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:05:50 <Mathnerd314> Sgeo: does it have an end?
00:06:01 <Sgeo> The arc? Yes
00:07:08 <Sgeo> The last Sunday strip in the arc has Jon Heder playing someone
00:07:29 <Sgeo> I _think_ there are 4 weeks in the arc
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00:10:16 <Mathnerd314> ah.
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00:37:18 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I think that's more subtle than my idea of imperitive, with no while and a limited for
00:37:53 <oerjan> that's known to be the way to get only the primitive recursive functions
00:38:41 <oerjan> (like, no ackermann function, as well as everything terminating)
00:40:50 <Sgeo> What other interesting sub-TC possibilities are there?
00:41:46 <oerjan> that's BlooP from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlooP_and_FlooP
00:41:51 <oerjan> (i think)
00:42:09 <Sgeo> oerjan, did you read the comic arc I linked?
00:42:50 <oerjan> yes. although i find that comic boring for the most part.
00:42:58 <Sgeo> :(
00:43:47 <oerjan> (wait, don't tell me you're the author)
00:43:54 <Sgeo> I'm not.
00:44:10 <oerjan> could have been embarassing
00:45:03 <oerjan> Sgeo: i've also seen some ideas on restricting recursion to achieve things like only primite recursive, only polynomial time or only logarithmic space
00:45:27 * Sgeo is an admin for Wikisuperosity
00:45:32 <oerjan> by dividing parameters into classes where you can only recurse in certain combinations
00:45:35 <oerjan> oh
00:45:49 <Sgeo> I thought "for, no while" was already primitive recusive only?
00:45:59 <oerjan> also i guess time and space classes in general are examples of interesting sub-TC possibilities
00:46:10 <Sgeo> What are these ideas?
00:46:30 <Sgeo> And would "only recursive non-primitive-recusive" be possible/
00:46:35 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes, this was a different way of achieving the same thing functionally rather than imperatively. or so i think, the case i actually read was the polynomial time one
00:47:55 <oerjan> Sgeo: almost certainly not possible, you'll always top out somewhere _below_ all recursive, or escape to full TC. in fact i think the "usual diagonalization techniques" work for showing that
00:48:59 <oerjan> um or wait what do you mean, primitive recursive is a _subset_ of recursive
00:49:25 <Sgeo> I meant, being able to do anything except the things within the subset
00:49:32 <Sgeo> Or, well, not anything
00:49:36 <oerjan> and if you had only non-primitive recursive it would mean you _couldn't_ do absolutely trivial things, because those are subsets of primitive recursive
00:50:02 <Sgeo> Being unable to do trivial things, but being able to do .. more complex things, sounds fun
00:50:10 <oerjan> maybe there's a way, but it seems unintuitive
00:50:36 <oerjan> because you can usually reduce easier problems to harder ones
00:51:00 <Sgeo> Well, if "everything not primitive-recursive" isn't doable, then try for a finite set not in primitive-recursive, maybe
00:51:01 <oerjan> and hardness is usually measured with something like reduction
00:52:10 <oerjan> Sgeo: the thing i see is if you had any kind of composability you would be likely to be able to construct simpler things
00:52:55 <oerjan> and if you don't have composability then you might just have a finite set of not really very related algorithms
00:52:57 <Sgeo> "Do not use as a pillow, toy, or floatation device"
00:52:58 <Sgeo> Too late
00:53:15 <oerjan> what did you do now? :D
00:53:28 <Sgeo> Used some packing material as a toy
00:53:42 <Sgeo> And kind of like a pillow
00:53:47 <oerjan> bubble wrap?
00:54:10 <Sgeo> airpouch.com
00:54:15 <oerjan> everyone knows it's humanly impossible _not_ to use that as a toy
00:54:59 <oerjan> oh huge bubbles
00:57:35 * Sgeo wonders if anyone has ever used these as a floatation device..
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00:58:47 <oerjan> Sgeo: after they made the warning, probably ;D
00:58:48 * Sgeo wonders if it's possible for a gas to not be buoyant in liquid
01:00:19 <oerjan> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ABEANS)
01:01:21 <Sgeo> Do not stop chainsaw with hands or genitals
01:02:00 <oerjan> hm well if the gas is heavier than the liquid - in fact isn't there this lake in africa that has huge amounts of gas stored in it
01:02:21 <oerjan> (occasionally getting out and poisoning/suffocating people)
01:03:16 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos
01:03:32 <oerjan> i guess it doesn't count, seems like the CO2 is dissolved until it escapes
01:04:33 <cheater99> hi
01:04:39 <oerjan> ho
01:06:17 <oerjan> seems like it is kept in the lower water layers by temperature difference and lack of mixing
01:08:22 <oerjan> http://scitoys.com/board/messages/108/1447.html
01:09:24 <oerjan> if the second message is anything to go by, then even the heaviest gas (radon) is lighter than the lightest liquid (hydrogen). assuming those actually _are_ heaviest and lightest
01:11:07 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_stocks
01:13:26 <oerjan> that jimbo guy probably had it coming, anyhow
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01:52:51 <coppro> I/O! I/O! 'Tween code and world we go!
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02:35:47 <coppro> pikhq: Have you played Diplomacy?
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02:36:35 <coppro> (or anyone else)
02:37:28 <Sgeo_> I've read about it
02:37:55 <coppro> You should play online, but aside from that, I'd like to discuss with someone with experience
03:10:15 * Sgeo_ wonders if it would make sense to write an MMO in Erlang
03:13:40 <coppro> it would
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03:26:15 <Sgeo_> Hm, a more OO language would make more sense though?
03:26:57 <pikhq> coppro: Nay, I have not
03:27:19 <coppro> Sgeo_: why?
03:27:35 <Sgeo_> To represent various entities within the world
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03:43:08 <GreaseMonkey> i'm not familiar with Erlang, sorry :/
03:43:24 <GreaseMonkey> the name crops up but still
03:44:13 <GreaseMonkey> oh yay, functional programming.
03:47:00 <coppro> Sgeo_: if you're going to avoid functional programming because it apparently can't represent objects, try Reia
03:47:27 <Sgeo_> But I want Erlang for the hot-patching
03:47:32 <Sgeo_> And concurrency
03:47:40 <Sgeo_> Oh
03:47:41 <GreaseMonkey> hot-patching?
03:47:47 <Sgeo_> Erm, hot-swapping?
03:47:51 <Sgeo_> hot-something
03:48:30 <coppro> Sgeo_: Reia is built on the Erlang VM
03:48:32 <GreaseMonkey> so you can patch it on the fly?
03:48:47 <Sgeo_> coppro, yeah I see, I just wikied
03:48:51 <GreaseMonkey> of course, there's also robozzle
03:49:12 <GreaseMonkey> which is quite extreme with its minimal storage capability
03:51:29 <Sgeo_> http://wiki.reia-lang.org/wiki/Reia_Programming_Language o.O Reia looks A LOT like Ruby
03:51:41 <GreaseMonkey> yes.
03:51:41 <Sgeo_> Actually, I think that might be valid Ruby code
03:52:13 <GreaseMonkey> print is a private method in the string object, though :/
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03:53:42 <GreaseMonkey> and it seems to just return nil
03:54:22 <GreaseMonkey> oh wait
03:54:29 <GreaseMonkey> you actually need to put stuff in the brackets
03:55:45 <GreaseMonkey> it directly links to Kernel#print
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03:56:23 <GreaseMonkey> also a fun way to crash irb (interactive ruby interpreter)
03:56:25 <GreaseMonkey> Object.send :private, :nil?
03:56:30 <GreaseMonkey> and then try typing something
04:00:01 <GreaseMonkey> irb(main):010:0> String.ancestors
04:00:01 <GreaseMonkey> => [String, Enumerable, Comparable, Object, Kernel]
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06:16:18 <Sgeo_> Pidgin no longer supports Win 9x
06:16:33 <coppro> good riddance
06:19:44 <Sgeo_> I just realized something.
06:20:06 <Sgeo_> I could claim that alise is as obsessed with old versions of Windows as I am with old virtual worlds
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08:34:43 <pikhq> Man. Japanese Internet memes are freaking amazing.
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10:52:31 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Did AnMaster die in a helicopter crash after being involved with the mayor? <-- ??? is this non-sequitur?
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13:41:54 <alex2012> hello fellow humans
13:42:13 <alex2012> hows mood?
13:43:05 <alex2012> :D
13:43:15 <alex2012> so busy here
13:43:15 <alex2012> haha
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14:06:14 <ais523> try turning up when I'm not at a seminar next time
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14:36:14 <oerjan> <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Did AnMaster die in a helicopter crash after being involved with the mayor? <-- ??? is this non-sequitur?
14:36:37 <oerjan> strangely enough, not entirely. see the later superosity link.
14:36:54 <oerjan> almost, but not entirely, i guess.
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15:30:39 <oerjan> cpressey: i agree that your goldbach language needs work - for one thing it's not hard to find arbitrary large even numbers that are sums of two odd primes
15:31:13 <cpressey> oerjan: Yeah, and there's really no advantage to them being even
15:31:29 <cpressey> i think, they just need to get larger and larger and execution progresses
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15:33:31 <cpressey> Didn't someone here say they implemented Thue in Haskell?
15:33:48 <oerjan> hm maybe
15:34:16 <oerjan> shouldn't be too hard, anyway
15:35:56 <cpressey> No, not at all.
15:36:12 <cpressey> Well, except for the confusing things in the spec about how I/O symbols can be overridden
15:36:44 <cpressey> I don't understand, does that mean, if there is a ~~~ in the initial data, then I should *not* treat that as meaning "input" when it appears on a RHS?
15:36:45 <oerjan> um is there something more than the esowiki says?
15:37:03 <cpressey> How else do I "override" ~~~ ?
15:37:17 <cpressey> Sorry, I mean :::
15:37:50 <cpressey> But the same applies to ~foo I believe.
15:38:00 <oerjan> the wiki article contains no instance of the word "override"
15:38:15 <cpressey> John's doc does, though.
15:38:21 <cpressey> And that would be definitive
15:38:25 <cpressey> such as it is
15:38:28 <oerjan> where's that?
15:38:49 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/projects/thue/doc/thue.txt
15:38:54 <cpressey> also on salafra's site i believe
15:39:09 <cpressey> "Note that either (or both) of these implicit rules may be overridden by providing explicit rules that perform some other task."
15:39:13 <cpressey> OK, then
15:39:23 <cpressey> I guess that means if you say ::::=foo you override input.
15:39:30 <oerjan> ah
15:40:23 <cpressey> I wonder how many implementations correctly do that, esp for output, where I gather ~foo::=bar only overrides outputting foo
15:43:09 <oerjan> well if they start implementing from the wiki text, obviously they won't...
15:45:00 <oerjan> hm this also means that ::: and ~output should be triggered even if they are _not_ the entire right hand side of a rule, not?
15:45:23 <oerjan> hm wait for ~output that makes no sense
15:46:05 <cpressey> I always though I/O in Thue smelled kind of funny.
15:46:12 <cpressey> *thought*
15:46:27 <oerjan> because if you apply something::=~output to somethingwhoops you would then print outputwhoops rather than output, or perhaps a nondeterministic initial string :D
15:46:46 <oerjan> well i already pointed out on the wiki that there is no way to avoid code injection with input
15:47:38 <oerjan> and that was from my simplified understanding, if ::: and ~output are really implicit rules that _don't_ need to apply to a whole rhs then stuff gets utterly insane
15:47:57 <cpressey> I don't know if I want to treat thue.c as a reference implementation, but there might be no other way to ENSURE TOTAL COMPLIANCE
15:48:05 <oerjan> well i guess ::: doesn't matter that much
15:48:39 <oerjan> "The specific effect is that all
15:48:39 <oerjan> text to the right of the output symbol in the rhs of a production is sent
15:48:39 <oerjan> to the output stream.
15:48:41 <oerjan> "
15:49:06 <oerjan> i guess it needs to be in an rhs then, although it's unclear whether the ~ must be at the start
15:49:43 <AnMaster> /ab
15:49:44 <AnMaster> err
15:49:45 <AnMaster> fail
15:49:47 <cpressey> Hm, in FvdP's implementation, the ::: can appear as initial data
15:49:57 <cpressey> at least, it suggests
15:50:06 <cpressey> and it triggers input
15:50:56 <AnMaster> does anyone know anything about water based computers? As a thought experiment I invented a simple (bidirectional) water transistor
15:51:16 <AnMaster> seems quite easy to do both "nMOS-style" and "pMOS-style" btw
15:52:21 <oerjan> i vaguely recall you can do computation with hydraulics
15:52:21 <AnMaster> I don't know how to do a water diode, but iirc there are already some sorts of one-way water valves? Not sure how they work but they should be suitable
15:52:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm, doesn't that imply oil?
15:52:57 <oerjan> hydr- is greek for water
15:53:26 <AnMaster> ah so why is it that hydraulics commonly use oil?
15:54:02 <oerjan> it can use any liquid, presumably
15:54:17 <oerjan> "Hydraulics is a topic in applied science and engineering dealing with the mechanical properties of liquids."
15:54:35 <oerjan> "The word "hydraulics" originates from the Greek word .......... (hydraulikos) which in turn originates from ........ (hydraulos) meaning water organ which in turn comes from .... (hydor, Greek for water) and ..... (aulos, meaning pipe)."
15:55:04 <AnMaster> ah
15:55:48 <AnMaster> hm, I think my transistor will even model the leak current of electrical transistors quite well
15:56:34 <fizzie> There's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics -- I remember reading that page once.
15:56:45 <fizzie> It's linked from the sadly short "unconventional computing" article.
15:59:20 <AnMaster> ah that is quite interesting
15:59:55 <oerjan> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumatics#Pneumatic_logic
16:00:30 <AnMaster> I wonder how reliable that amplifier is
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16:01:03 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorteberg_relay
16:01:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, I meant the fluid one
16:01:48 <AnMaster> not the pneumatic one
16:02:00 <oerjan> they're sort of related
16:02:03 <Gregor> <oerjan> "The word "hydraulics" originates from the Greek word .......... (hydraulikos) which in turn originates from ........ (hydraulos) meaning water organ which in turn comes from .... (hydor, Greek for water) and ..... (aulos, meaning pipe)."
16:02:05 <Gregor> Daaaamn
16:02:07 <Gregor> This is way too relevant
16:02:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: in fact the section before the pneumatic logic one contains a comparison of hydraulics and pneumatics
16:02:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, a disadvantage of using air as the computing medium would be that it is quite compressible (unlike a fluid).
16:03:05 <AnMaster> which means the calculation probably will be slower since zero friction would be very impractical
16:03:29 <AnMaster> oh that is mentioned in that section too
16:04:01 <oerjan> Gregor: too what? (also *mwahahaha synchronicity*)
16:04:05 <oerjan> *to
16:04:19 <Gregor> Hydraulics :P
16:04:38 <Gregor> I was expecting it to be some ridiculous thing. I mean obviously hydro is water, but it could have been like "water serpent"
16:05:28 <oerjan> no, that's hydra
16:05:48 <oerjan> (of course you knew that)
16:05:54 <Gregor> Oh pff
16:05:56 <Gregor> You're unhelpful.
16:05:59 <fizzie> Hydraulics -- powered by hydras with ulcers.
16:06:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, anyway, I suggest using water logic (5 cm scale to begin with, in some years I suspect it might be feasible to reach the 5 mm scale!)
16:06:22 <Gregor> Hydra-ulics
16:07:12 <AnMaster> what would a water resistor look like?
16:07:14 <oerjan> AnMaster: they _did_ mention nanotechnology
16:07:25 <Gregor> AnMaster: A valve.
16:07:33 <AnMaster> oerjan, hm :/
16:07:43 <AnMaster> Gregor, wouldn't that be what a diod was?
16:07:44 <fizzie> For the small scale wetness (though not very logic-related), there's another Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microfluidics
16:07:54 <AnMaster> Gregor, or possibly a zenner diode (spelling?)
16:08:15 <Gregor> You can stuff water backwards through a valve, it's only pressure that forces it to go whichever way it goes.
16:08:35 <AnMaster> Gregor, can't you have one-way valves?
16:08:42 <AnMaster> Gregor, otherwise, how the heck do pumps work?
16:08:59 <Gregor> You can have one-way valves. They're called "one-way valves"
16:09:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, yep, diodes
16:09:16 <Gregor> I wasn't referring to one-way valves.
16:09:20 <Gregor> I was referring to valves.
16:09:20 <AnMaster> Gregor, ah
16:09:52 <AnMaster> hm
16:10:45 <Gregor> Nowait, my valve system isn't a resistor at all, it just trades "voltage" for current or vice-versa. A resistor is just a leaky bit of pipe.
16:11:51 <AnMaster> anyway, for digital logic, one disadvantage of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fluidicamplifier.gif is that it would most probably have a rather high leakage flow on the "gate" (or what would be "gate" in MOSFET)
16:12:59 <AnMaster> I think that using a movable plug controlled by a small gate fluid might work better. That way the leakage would be very low. Either have complementary fluids to move it back, or a spring in the opposite end
16:14:23 <AnMaster> Gregor, so your valve is more like a transformer then?
16:14:55 <AnMaster> except it doesn't provide the isolation that a "normal" transformer does
16:15:35 <AnMaster> so I guess it is more like an autotransformer
16:15:42 <AnMaster> (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer)
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16:32:14 <oerjan> ais523: you know it's sort of hard not involving you in the recent Talk:Tubes discussion :D
16:32:20 <ais523> heh
16:32:23 <ais523> you're right, anyway
16:32:31 <ais523> wiki admins see all that goes on...
16:33:11 <oerjan> do you know if the earlier 2,5 machine that's also sometimes mentioned has the same infinity issues?
16:34:06 <oerjan> i noted the mathworld page linked to is inconsistent - it starts with saying tape should be finite and ends with your result
16:34:38 <ais523> oerjan: the known proof for the 2,5 machine needs an repeating tape
16:34:39 <oerjan> and i'm not sure where the 2,5 in the middle fits
16:34:46 <oerjan> ok
16:34:46 <ais523> that repeats one pattern infinitely to the left, and a different pattern infinitely to the right
16:34:58 <oerjan> so similar to rule 110
16:34:58 <ais523> you can easily make it work on a blank tape by adding a few million new states and an extra colour
16:35:04 <ais523> to do the repeating in the turing machine itself
16:35:17 <ais523> yep, it's identical to R110 in that respect, which it emulates
16:35:28 <ais523> but the repeating pattern is more complex as you have to allow for the turing machine to change direction
16:35:42 <oerjan> um it _does_ emulate rule 110?
16:35:47 <ais523> (this is actually a mistake in Wolfram's published proof of the 2,5 machine's completeness)
16:35:59 <ais523> oerjan: yes, although the published proof in ANKOS is wrong
16:36:05 <oerjan> oh.
16:36:16 <ais523> I actually pointed this out to Wolfram himself over the phone; he said does it work anyway and I said yes, so he said he wasn't bothered
16:36:42 <oerjan> um, excuse me i'll have to go revert a certain edit i recently did to wikipedia's UTM article *blush*
16:38:30 <ais523> basically, if, say, the repeating pattern is 100 cells long, you need to do the first 100 steps of evolution of rule 110 from the pattern and use them as part of the repeating pattern on the initial tape
16:38:31 <oerjan> oh and it _was_ cook who proved 2,5 then?
16:38:39 <ais523> nope, cook proved rule 110
16:38:49 <ais523> I don't know if he was involved with the TM
16:39:03 <ais523> but I suspect he would probably have noticed that the naive encoding for the tape doesn't work if he was
16:39:30 <oerjan> oh. could you take a look at the last diff of WP:Universal Turing Machine?
16:39:39 <oerjan> (i'd link you except :D)
16:39:59 <ais523> except I'm already on the page?
16:40:12 <oerjan> except you censor irc links
16:40:38 <ais523> I'd leave the {{fact}} tag there
16:40:51 <ais523> the entire situation is slightly murky, we could do with a reliable source rather than conjecture
16:41:22 <ais523> you can say that given an appropriate repeating initial tape, the turing machine simulates rule 110, because it does
16:41:34 <ais523> but AFAIK I'm the only person who's proved that, and I've never written the proof down
16:41:50 <ais523> come to think of it, I should probably write that proof down sometime, although it (should be) pretty easy to recreate
16:41:54 <ais523> it doesn't fit into a margin...
16:42:09 <oerjan> i'll rewrite it to "based on the rule 110 automaton". is it ok if i edit summarize as "Alex Smith confirms it _was_ based on rule 110"
16:42:16 <ais523> yes, it's OK
16:43:10 <ais523> actually, the 2,3 machine has a really simple halting state
16:43:32 <ais523> with the latest version of the proof, the halt state happens when the head goes to the left of its starting position
16:43:46 <ais523> which means you can just use a semi-infinite tape if you like and get a halt state that way
16:43:47 <oerjan> oh
16:44:36 <ais523> it was originally pretty routine, but more complex than that
16:44:43 <ais523> but once I realised I could make the halt state that, I couldn't resist
16:50:54 <oerjan> oh. i'll mention that on the Talk:Tubes page.
16:53:38 <oerjan> do you want to be referred to?
16:53:54 <ais523> it's fine if you mention me
16:54:09 <ais523> heh, I could even say it myself, but for some reason I haven't been in a wiki talkpage discussion mood recently
16:55:13 <oerjan> well i'm asking because i had the impression you're trying to keep connections of your real name with your nick rare
16:56:13 <oerjan> so it's really about _how_ you want to be mentioned, too
16:56:42 <ais523> yep, just use one or the other, not both
16:56:48 <ais523> probably realname in this case
16:56:56 <oerjan> ok
16:58:57 <AnMaster> ais523, do you have holidays yet over there?
16:59:18 <ais523> AnMaster: the students are all on holiday due to post-exams
16:59:24 <AnMaster> ais523, and you?
16:59:26 <ais523> I'm not, though
16:59:31 <ais523> hardly any holiday for the staff, in theory
16:59:36 <AnMaster> ouch
16:59:38 <ais523> but it's rather slow and I'm spending much of my time at home
17:00:01 <AnMaster> ais523, so do you think you will have any time for feather, gcc-bf and so on during the summer?
17:00:07 <ais523> possibly
17:00:12 <ais523> maybe not, I have thousands of projects
17:00:20 <ais523> well, hundreds, or possibly tens
17:00:22 <ais523> but it feels like thousands
17:00:36 <AnMaster> ah
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17:03:13 <oerjan> you should just face it, you'll never have time for feather unless you go back in time and make it *ducks* (twice)
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18:03:34 <Phantom_Hoover> What's with the topic?
18:05:08 <oerjan> why, do you not find it esoteric enough?
18:05:39 <ais523> it's the wrong sort of eso
18:06:03 <ais523> hmm, news currently on the TV (which I'm not really watching) is all about China outsourcing vehicle manufacture to the UK
18:06:20 <oerjan> from a higher, enlightened perspective, there is no such thing as the wrong sort of eso
18:06:55 <oerjan> wait _to_ the UK?
18:07:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, It is a circle.
18:07:26 <ais523> oerjan: yes
18:07:35 <ais523> big news here, because loads of people are getting their jobs back
18:08:14 <pikhq> oerjan: Yeah, China's prosperous. :P
18:09:09 <ais523> oerjan: it matters a lot to me because I live in an area which used to be all housing for vehicle manufacturing
18:09:39 <ais523> and it went rather downhill after the plant closed, so it's nice to see it starting up again, it's possible the local streets will be filled with something other than vandals and joyriders
18:10:02 <oerjan> goths and vandals
18:10:52 <pikhq> nann ka yaxtute mo nann ka yaxtute mo EAMAN k`a taosenai yo!
18:11:07 <pikhq> (this has been pikhq attempting to convey rocking out over IRC and failing)
18:11:20 <oerjan> what the heck is rocking out
18:11:29 <pikhq> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLbFctG3tw0&feature=related
18:11:35 <pikhq> What you do when listening to that.
18:11:37 <ais523> oerjan: it's a phrase mostly used by teenagers years ago
18:11:49 <ais523> precise meaning is unknown, but it has something to do with certain styles of music
18:12:08 <oerjan> pikhq: for a moment i thought you were quoting gothic there
18:12:29 <pikhq> oerjan: No, bizarrely pedantic Japanese romanisation.
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18:12:58 <pikhq> Because if I can't do Japanese input I can at least be more pedantic than *everyone else* who does romanised Japanese.
18:13:25 <oerjan> what's the x for
18:13:49 <pikhq> The following encoded kana is small.
18:14:08 <oerjan> huh
18:14:09 <pikhq> It's really more of a kana encoding scheme than an actual romanisation scheme. :P
18:14:28 <oerjan> is xtut what you'd normally write as tt?
18:14:54 <pikhq> Yes, in normal romanisation that'd be "nan ka yatte mo nan ka yatte mo eaman ga taosenai yo!"
18:16:31 <oerjan> mhm
18:21:37 <Deewiant> pikhq: What about the "nann"
18:23:07 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ん
18:23:13 <pikhq> That's what I'm encoding as "nn".
18:23:55 <Deewiant> Is there some possibility of ambiguity if you just use "n"
18:24:01 <pikhq> Yes.
18:25:28 <Deewiant> Where?
18:26:25 <pikhq> One can have vowels following that.
18:27:21 <Deewiant> Got an example? I don't think I've ever run into that
18:28:19 <pikhq> 雰囲気 ふんいき hunniki (fun'iki in Hepburn)
18:28:51 <pikhq> Though for god-knows what reason, it commonly gets pronounced as "fuinki"
18:30:54 <oerjan> how funky
18:37:46 <Deewiant> Right, I think I've heard that one but never seen it written :-P
18:38:01 <Deewiant> Or at least fuinki sounds familiar
18:40:59 <pikhq> It's a bit more common spoken, I've found.
18:50:12 <Phantom_Hoover> "Felis sum et ad furandum veni"
18:50:26 <Phantom_Hoover> "I am a cat and I have come to steal."
18:50:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Or something like that.
18:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> s/I have come/I came/
18:51:59 <ais523> hmm, my suspicion is confirmed: nobody has tried to speedrun Neverwinter Nights 1 (or 2 fwiw), neither regular or TAS
18:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> The Latin comes from Science and Math Defeated.
18:54:09 <Deewiant> ais523: Unless you mean the AOL game, there's a speedrun on youtube starting at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMnjuITemr8
18:54:13 <fizzie> ais523: That depends on your definition of "tried"; there's at least one in Youtube.
18:54:21 <fizzie> Gah.
18:54:41 <ais523> ah, hmm
18:54:48 <ais523> I was just checking the main sites
18:55:12 <ais523> unless there's some glitch I don't know about, NWN must be one of the worst games to TAS ever
18:55:15 <fizzie> Whereas this "youtube" is some sort of weird half-unknown underground site.
18:55:16 <ais523> up there with WarioWare
18:56:30 <pikhq> fizzie: More like one of the hosting services for TAS videos.
18:56:33 <Deewiant> I'd just start by using your friendly neighbourhood search engine; they tend to index speeddemosarchive.com and tasvideos.org in addition to the underground sites like youtube
18:56:38 <pikhq> ais523: TAS? Ugh.
18:56:45 <ais523> exactly
18:56:57 <ais523> you can imagine how bad a warioware TAS would be
18:57:04 <ais523> which is ironic, as people have actually tried
18:57:11 <ais523> (the main issue is that you wouldn't see anything but the cutscenes)
18:58:05 <ais523> hmm, that speedrun's ridiculous, they put all their points into strength, charisma, and persuade; is this some new way to break the game I've never heard of?
18:58:07 <pikhq> The cutscenes *are* fairly amusing. But still. Unless there's some amazing glitches, not worth it.
19:03:13 <ais523> wow, so bizarre to see the cutscenes in that NWN speedrun
19:03:23 <ais523> I play the Linux version, which is identical except it doesn't have cutscenes
19:03:35 <ais523> (instead, there's a text file containing the text they have, which is kind-of cute)
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20:47:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Oranjer!
20:54:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there any mid-level languages like C other than C?
20:55:54 <Phantom_Hoover> They all seem to be really low level or fairly high-level.
20:58:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Well?
20:58:36 <coppro> C++?
20:59:06 <Phantom_Hoover> C with some high-level stuff tacked on.
20:59:11 <Phantom_Hoover> It's not other than C.
20:59:17 <coppro> fair
20:59:23 <coppro> FORTRAN?
20:59:29 <coppro> Pascal?
20:59:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Pascal is pretty high-level, from what I remember.
21:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> FORTRAN, dunno.
21:00:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean in the sense of "arrays are pointers" and such.
21:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> I was wondering because I had this crazy idea of a non-C-based OS.
21:08:39 <Phantom_Hoover> I've just said something stupid, haven't I?
21:09:45 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: c'est possible
21:10:04 <hiato> in the strictes sense, all os's are asm/machine code
21:10:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:10:52 <Phantom_Hoover> What's Windows actually written in?
21:11:10 <hiato> Nobody knows... dam dum dumb
21:11:21 <Deewiant> C, C++, asm
21:11:24 <hiato> but judging by the numerous leaks, C
21:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> OS X?
21:13:20 <hiato> It's unix+stuff, so C
21:13:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, Objective C for the most part.
21:13:23 <hiato> mostly
21:13:48 <Phantom_Hoover> So, all of the major OSes are on a foundation of C.
21:14:09 <coppro> yes, because it's perfect for what it does
21:14:15 <hiato> cause it's this much [ ] easier than pure ASM
21:14:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly.
21:14:27 <coppro> it's easier than ASM but abstracts very very little of it
21:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It gives control structures, mainly.
21:14:54 <coppro> and nice treatment of numbers and not having to remember operation names
21:15:03 <coppro> it's also slightly harder to mix pointers and numbers
21:15:20 <Phantom_Hoover> So is there another language which has C's level of abstraction?
21:15:50 <coppro> There probably was once upon a time
21:15:52 <hiato> Yeah, many HLA langs
21:15:54 <coppro> but then it died to C beting better
21:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and nested expressions. Mustn't forget them.
21:16:00 <hiato> High Level Assembly
21:16:14 <coppro> HLAs abstract roughly to the same level but in a very different way
21:16:42 <hiato> yes, but "another language which has C's level of abstraction" is satisfied
21:16:57 <hiato> however, I agree they're not quite at all like a true high level lang
21:16:57 <coppro> agreed
21:17:12 <hiato> I mean, even NASM macros are very flexible
21:17:16 <coppro> LLVM's IR is probably a rough example
21:17:33 <coppro> although actually it's closer to machine than C
21:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought NASM's macros were meant to be less insane than MASM's.
21:18:10 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: perhaps, but there still remains very little one cant twist them into
21:18:16 <hiato> even FASM isn't bad
21:19:21 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.en.svg to reinforce that OSX matter
21:19:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Are control structures macroable?
21:20:11 <hiato> I believe so
21:20:25 <hiato> using clever jump points
21:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool.
21:20:43 <coppro> I like how that's simple
21:20:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The diagram?
21:20:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Or NASM?
21:21:12 <coppro> the diagram
21:23:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I like the way that it's orange at the start, and only becomes red later.
21:23:28 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: http://chewy509.110mb.com/b0.html for exaple, going back once again in the history (my bookmarks number too many for me to scrape quickly :P)
21:24:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Compound operations are nice, though.
21:27:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, lest I get the wrong idea, how do assembly labels translate into code?
21:28:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely the .text, .data and .bss sections are shared between each instance of a program?
21:29:40 * Phantom_Hoover goes off to check.
21:30:24 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: that much I do not know, but as for labels, in the final pass the are transformed into memory pointers that are inserted in jump destinations, in the case of things like loop .main or jmp near .label and so on
21:30:44 <Phantom_Hoover> My earlier experiments suggest it.
21:30:59 <Phantom_Hoover> For instance, the main label is the same for all instances of a process.
21:31:44 <hiato> I've never actually used compile ASM in an OS, so I actually have no clue about that side :P
21:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> ...
21:32:04 <Phantom_Hoover> What do you do in assembly, then?
21:32:17 <hiato> As opposed to writing my own OS or raw cpu progs
21:32:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, cool.
21:32:37 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you actually run raw CPU programs?
21:32:38 <hiato> I find that environment, or lack thereof, very liberating
21:32:51 <fizzie> Every process has its own virtual address space, you can't deduce about physical-memory-sharing based on what addresses variables or labels get on runtime.
21:32:59 <Phantom_Hoover> (And I've always wanted to do that, but I can never work out how)
21:33:07 <hiato> If you can fit the asm into 512bytes, write it as a boot sector to a floppy or vhdd or some such
21:33:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah/
21:33:32 <hiato> if it's more, find a fat bootlader (or write one) and let it start your prog from a medium
21:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Resources?
21:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, RDOFF needs a use.
21:38:03 <hiato> can someone point me to a nice stack based, perhaps RPN, esolang?
21:39:55 <Phantom_Hoover> dc
21:40:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It's AWESOME.
21:41:15 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: I have conquered DC
21:41:25 <hiato> and am looking for more :P
21:41:31 <Phantom_Hoover> FALSE?
21:41:42 <hiato> Hmm, I guess
21:42:20 <fizzie> Glass is stack-based, sort of, but perhaps now quite the style you're looking for.
21:42:34 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover, fizzie http://ix.io/11Q
21:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> What does it do?
21:43:07 <hiato> Never did look into glass, always looked rather complex
21:43:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, it's DC, right?
21:43:14 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: you tell me ;)
21:43:15 <hiato> yep
21:43:16 <hiato> BUT
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21:43:29 <hiato> I recommend you pipe it to a file, and kill it soon after launching
21:43:48 <hiato> lest you get annoyed with all the data
21:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is it a self-interpreter?
21:45:27 <hiato> Hah, now that's a nice idea
21:45:53 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so what is it?
21:45:58 <hiato> Run it, and try guess
21:46:12 <Phantom_Hoover> It gives me a crapload of errors about Register 012.
21:46:22 <hiato> copy/paste fail
21:46:32 <hiato> how are you running it?
21:46:39 <hiato> echo PROG | dc > out
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21:47:05 <hiato> preferably on one line, I think
21:47:06 <CakeProphet> bam
21:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Stack empty, now.
21:47:25 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover waaaa?
21:47:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Repeatedly.
21:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, wget then.
21:48:00 <uorygl> Hm, I wonder what there is for VPS providers located in Sweden.
21:48:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, more register 012.
21:48:26 <hiato> er
21:48:32 <hiato> ok, let me check
21:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> EXPLAIN.
21:49:34 <hiato> Copy it into a text file, strip all the lines, then copy that
21:49:41 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
21:49:57 <hiato> then type echo "<paste line>" | dc > out
21:50:00 <hiato> then kill
21:50:25 <hiato> then examine out
21:50:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Pi in hex, then.
21:50:32 <hiato> and it should be awesome
21:50:34 <hiato> ;)
21:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, is there any particular resource for the CPU-level code you were talking about?
21:52:25 <hiato> Well, short of example code (osdev.org springs to mind) and some asm tutorials, no, not really
21:52:35 <hiato> but it's not hard to pick up
21:52:40 <hiato> assuming a knowledge of asm
21:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> From where do you pick it up?
21:54:09 <hiato> ASM? Well, I learnt most of what I know from MikeOS (a simple 16bit OS), some tutorials (am scraping now) and osdev.org wiki
21:55:18 <Phantom_Hoover> No, not ASM. The other stuff.
21:56:38 <hiato> The environment-less raw-cpu stuff? osdev.org, really, and the bootloader competitions they hold/held
21:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool.
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21:59:01 <CakeProphet> !haskell replace sub (l:ls)@str = if sub `isPrefixOf` str then sub ++ (replace sub ((snd.splitAt) (length sub) str)) else l:(replace sub ls)
22:00:17 <CakeProphet> !haskell import Data.List; replace [] str = str; replace _ [] = []; replace sub (l:ls)@str = if sub `isPrefixOf` str then sub ++ (replace sub ((snd.splitAt) (length sub) str)) else l:(replace sub ls);
22:00:30 <CakeProphet> ...psh, what am I doing.
22:00:39 <hiato> good question ;)
22:02:26 <CakeProphet> !haskell import Data.List; replace [] _ str = str; replace _ _ [] = []; replace sub rep (l:ls)@str = if sub `isPrefixOf` str then rep ++ (replace sub rep ((snd.splitAt) (length sub) str)) else l:(replace sub rep ls); main = print $ replace "*" "$" "Hello I love *"
22:02:51 <CakeProphet> ...need moar errors. -goes to ghci-
22:05:57 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, why does osdev.org's main page redirect to "Expanded Main Page"?
22:06:06 <Phantom_Hoover> THERE ISN'T ANOTHER MAIN PAGE.
22:07:11 * cpressey applauds hiato's heroic dc.
22:07:33 <hiato> [:
22:10:09 <cpressey> osdev.org has always seemed a bit disorganized to me
22:11:50 <cpressey> note, for example, the giant link BACK to osdev.org, on the so-called Expanded Main Page
22:12:16 <CakeProphet> Hmmm, how do you write multi-line strings in Haskell?
22:12:26 <cpressey> but hey, they code is asm in this day and age. i can't complain.
22:13:08 <cpressey> CakeProphet: http://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2006-January/013911.html ?
22:14:24 <AnMaster> <ais523> wow, so bizarre to see the cutscenes in that NWN speedrun <ais523> I play the Linux version, which is identical except it doesn't have cutscenes <-- hm? free?
22:14:37 <ais523> AnMaster: nope
22:14:42 <ais523> paid binary
22:14:49 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, is it single player?
22:14:54 <ais523> still, it's nice to see that some companies release linux versions of their game
22:15:01 <ais523> and it does both single player and multiplayer
22:15:07 <ais523> although it doesn't have the toolset, I use WINE for that
22:15:19 <Deewiant> CakeProphet: You want str@(l:ls) and ((snd.).splitAt)
22:15:56 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm surprised that you play anything with 3D graphics!
22:16:13 <ais523> it's a good game!
22:16:29 <ais523> and Mesa's quite capable of handling it, even with Intel grahics
22:16:31 <ais523> *graphics
22:16:35 <ais523> admittedly it's 7 or 8 years old
22:16:57 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but still. I didn't expect you to play anything with more modern graphics than 2D and that being rare.
22:17:20 <AnMaster> well unless ASCII of course
22:18:24 <cpressey> I generally dislike 3D games, yet my two favorite games are 3D. Not FPP, though.
22:18:52 <AnMaster> cpressey, FPP?
22:18:55 <AnMaster> oh first person
22:18:59 <AnMaster> ais523, what genre is that NWN?
22:19:22 <ais523> AnMaster: it's D&D ported to realtime
22:19:28 <AnMaster> ais523, ah
22:19:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, why does .rodata have to be in .text?
22:19:36 <AnMaster> ais523, hard game?
22:19:37 <ais523> controls are vaguely like a third-person shooter, except it's common to pause if you can't type your commands in time
22:19:40 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what?
22:19:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Forget it.
22:19:50 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is a separate section?
22:19:52 <ais523> and not massively hard, especially on easy difficulty, and especially if you don't mind respawning after death
22:19:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I am confused.
22:19:57 <Phantom_Hoover> As hell.
22:20:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it might be next to .text, would make sense. Since both sections should be write protected. One (.rodata) should probably be no-execute too
22:20:35 <cpressey> We *totally* need hierarchical linker sections in object files.
22:20:47 <AnMaster> so I guess it doesn't save any memory in fact when either of them doesn't fill a complete page at the end
22:20:55 <cpressey> .text.rodata.rodata.bss
22:21:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh.
22:21:03 <AnMaster> cpressey, what would that mean?
22:21:30 <AnMaster> cpressey, also .bss would be a pain if not directly after data
22:21:35 <AnMaster> err .data*
22:21:49 <AnMaster> considering you probably want to just load the binary as is into RAM mostly
22:21:56 <AnMaster> well into the process address space
22:22:14 <AnMaster> of course, dynamic linking messes the thing up anyway...
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22:23:34 <AnMaster> cpressey, anyway .rodata.bss would presumably be read only data defaulting to zero?
22:23:47 <AnMaster> or did the two .rodata cancel each other out?
22:24:03 <AnMaster> also it would presumably be executable (.text)
22:24:13 <cpressey> Sometimes I wonder if IRC connects multiple universes together.
22:26:22 <cpressey> "chomp   chomp!   chop   chop   chop!   chop!" -- Ruby String class documentation
22:27:21 <cpressey> And I don't know what kind of doc-generation tool those folks are using, but it creates hyperlinks which have right-to-left character ordering... despite not being in Arabic
22:29:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Bah, how do I use these damn floppies?
22:29:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Images?
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22:30:20 <SevenInchBread> !haskell main = putStrLn "test"
22:30:24 <EgoBot> test
22:30:57 <hiato> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, rawrite in win/nix or just plain dd
22:31:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I don't have /dev/fd0
22:31:31 <SevenInchBread> !haskell main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "
22:31:33 <EgoBot> main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "
22:32:00 <SevenInchBread> I realized there was no need for a replace function, though you could still make a quine using it.
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22:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, must dash.
22:35:32 <coppro> !haskell main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "!haskell main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "
22:35:35 <EgoBot> !haskell main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "!haskell main = putStrLn (src ++ (show src)) where src = "
22:35:39 <CakeProphet> ...I was just thinking about that.
22:36:00 <CakeProphet> I remember a lot time ago we had two bots that would make quines for the other bots command.
22:36:03 <CakeProphet> *long time
22:38:12 <CakeProphet> I thinking about making a Haskell quine file with multiple different quine approaches
22:38:31 <CakeProphet> so they'd have to also print all the other quine functions out as part of their code.
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22:42:35 <pikhq> It's very, very weird listening to an acapella song with a chorus of "Ultraman! Ultraman Seven!"
22:42:46 <pikhq> *Very* freaking weird.
22:45:15 <CakeProphet> write about it in your blah.
22:45:19 <CakeProphet> *blag
22:45:20 <CakeProphet> ...
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22:49:39 <c0d1g0f0n735> ol
22:49:58 <c0d1g0f0n735> hi
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23:04:11 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I shall write it in my blagoblogosphere!
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23:22:57 <AnMaster> ais523, does NWN2 also exist for linux?
23:23:04 <ais523> no
23:23:11 <ais523> NWN1 is much better, anyway
23:23:24 <AnMaster> ah, but worse graphics I presume?
23:23:32 <ais523> not massively
23:23:47 <ais523> NWN2 has worse graphic design
23:23:55 <ais523> so NWN1's are nicer-looking even if they're technically worse
23:25:21 <AnMaster> that rather depends on specific taste
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