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00:13:21 <cpressey> YOU ARE NOT PLAYING ENOUGH GORF.  PLAY MORE GORF
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00:33:39 <cheater99> hi
00:33:44 <cheater99> what is gorf
00:34:32 <coppro> good question
00:34:59 <cheater99> Gorf is an arcade game released in 1981 by Midway Mfg., whose name was advertised as an acronym for "Galactic Orbiting Robot Force".
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01:13:49 <AnMaster> cheater99, pretentious name
01:14:39 <cheater99> AnMaster: ?
01:14:47 <cheater99> AnMaster: what?
01:15:29 <AnMaster> cheater99, gorf
01:15:56 <cheater99> oh
01:15:59 <cheater99> i thought you'd meant me
01:16:01 <cheater99> ;<
01:16:16 <AnMaster> cheater99, nah not really
01:16:48 <cheater99> ok B<
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04:05:58 <Sgeo_> Does ais523 logread?
04:07:20 <coppro> don't think so
04:09:28 <Sgeo_> Hm
04:09:39 <Sgeo_> Is there only one version of IE8?
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06:15:21 <Gregor> Woooooo http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov1-wipp7.ogg
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13:10:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Hi, everybody!
13:18:30 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:23:29 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
13:25:38 <oerjan> Mirage_Absorber!
13:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Running out, huh?
13:30:04 <oerjan> i have _no_ idea what you are talking about
13:30:15 * oerjan should have kept a list of the ones he already used
13:37:33 * Phantom_Hoover tests sarcasm detector
13:37:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it isn't working.
13:38:06 <oerjan> *mwahahaha*
13:40:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you hear me?
13:40:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you hear me now?
13:42:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Now?
13:42:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you hear me?
13:42:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Or read, or whatever.
13:42:49 <oerjan> um yes
13:42:50 <Phantom_Hoover> I won't discriminate against those with neural interfaces.
13:43:17 * Phantom_Hoover wonders how IWC's 20 questions game will turn out.
13:43:35 <oerjan> well i just had to drop the cheshire cat :(
13:43:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Aww.
13:44:35 <oerjan> not that i'd had it for more than one question anyway
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14:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://satansgoalie.deviantart.com/art/rainbows-are-metal-105457616
14:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Worst misunderstanding of licences ever.
14:06:02 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can use the segment registers as general purpose registers.
14:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Preferably without making the memory model explode.
14:07:07 <oerjan> general explosion registers.  recommended by Taliban, Hamas and Al-Qaeda.
14:07:56 <Phantom_Hoover> mov eex, america
14:08:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Or perhaps mov [america], eex
14:15:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Although eex is equivalent to one of the 64-bit registers.
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14:24:41 * Sgeo__ is turning into alise
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15:11:37 <waga> hi
15:11:50 <oerjan> hi
15:12:15 * oerjan wonders if we should change the topic
15:12:19 -!- Yandertal has joined.
15:12:54 * waga just dived into the great world of eso langs
15:13:11 <oerjan> ah
15:13:33 * oerjan always gets nervous when new people arrive and the topic is hideously misleading
15:14:04 <oerjan> not that we get _that_ many actual crystal healers here, anyway
15:14:12 <waga> haha
15:14:33 <waga> i like the topic
15:14:40 <waga> is the worst i have ever seen
15:15:40 <waga> you should also add ufos
15:15:45 <waga> and stupid
15:15:52 <waga> magnetic powers
15:15:55 <waga> and shit
15:16:12 <waga> my aunt loves them. last time i visited her
15:16:35 <Sgeo__> I love magnets too.
15:16:43 <waga> she told me that aprox 36000 of souls orbit the earth waiting for free bodies
15:17:03 <oerjan> waga: that sounds rather low, actually
15:17:29 <Sgeo__> Very useful things. Right now, I'm using a device that relies on dynamically created magnets for purposes of information storage
15:17:43 -!- hiato has joined.
15:18:16 <waga> and that nowaday´s our galaxy has entered a new in a new space region were we will be able to use our extrasenzorial powers
15:18:28 <waga> and stuff
15:18:30 <waga> so she trains every day
15:18:37 <waga> ^^
15:19:58 * oerjan immediately suspects someone confusing galaxy with solar system, as if that were the main problem here
15:20:09 <waga> is this an esoteric languages programming channel? :S
15:20:18 <oerjan> yes
15:20:23 <waga> or have i landed into some paranoic idiots
15:20:24 <waga> oh
15:20:25 <waga> ok
15:20:27 <cpressey> brainfuck
15:20:30 <cpressey> see, that proves it
15:20:50 <waga> i love brainfuck
15:20:58 <oerjan> waga: cpressey is famous here
15:21:12 <cpressey> oerjan: I am? ... ok
15:21:13 <oerjan> befunge and other inventions
15:21:14 <waga> just managed to do my first prog in it to copy one byte to another
15:22:14 <oerjan> waga: this channel is off topic as often as not.  actual esoterica are somewhat rare, though, although there's the occasional technological singularity discussion and stuff
15:23:08 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen WE HAVE BOTS
15:23:17 <EgoBot> 101 +++++++++++[>+>++++++++>++++++>+++<<<<-]>>-.>+++.>-.<+++.-------.<-.>++++.>.<---.<-------.+++++.-.<-. [662]
15:23:27 <waga> who?
15:23:34 <oerjan> ^bf +++++++++++[>+>++++++++>++++++>+++<<<<-]>>-.>+++.>-.<+++.-------.<-.>++++.>.<---.<-------.+++++.-.<-.
15:23:43 <oerjan> um
15:23:51 <oerjan> one less bot than usual, it would seem
15:24:02 <oerjan> !bf +++++++++++[>+>++++++++>++++++>+++<<<<-]>>-.>+++.>-.<+++.-------.<-.>++++.>.<---.<-------.+++++.-.<-.
15:24:06 <EgoBot> WE HAVE BOTS
15:25:06 <oerjan> also HackEgo, and usually fungot.  EgoBot is the one with many esolangs in it, though
15:25:45 <waga> >>>,[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]
15:25:52 <waga> this is it
15:26:01 <oerjan> fungot would be the one actually _written_ in an esolang
15:26:36 * waga uses a fucking german computer with a fucking german windows and a fucking german kezboard lazout
15:26:40 <waga> and i HATE it
15:27:40 <oerjan> s/german/norwegian/, here
15:28:06 <oerjan> ok not the kezboard that's distinctly german :D
15:29:01 <waga> sorrty
15:29:20 <waga> but it´s absolutely different then qwery
15:29:34 <waga> it´s like using a esoteric computer
15:29:54 <oerjan> it's qwertz right?  thus the kezboard
15:31:07 <Deewiant> I'm on a Japanese keyboard with an English-locale Linux and an originally American (I think) keyboard layout
15:31:43 <Deewiant> And I love it
15:31:50 <oerjan> Deewiant: no mention of your being finnish?
15:32:14 <Deewiant> Well, waga didn't state his nationality either
15:32:49 <oerjan> true
15:33:20 <waga> i am romanian
15:33:27 <waga> but born in canada
15:35:11 <waga> if that helps...
15:35:21 <oerjan> no, that only complicates things :D
15:35:24 <oerjan> food ->
15:36:52 <cpressey> i was born in canada too.  i'm in the us now.  and i use a completely normal keyboard.
15:37:08 <waga> me too
15:37:15 <waga> except today
15:37:16 <cpressey> i'm using a tiling window manager under ms windows, though.  that's got to count for something.
15:37:23 <waga> wow
15:37:56 <waga> dwm + cygwin?
15:38:04 -!- Yandertal has changed nick to Yandertal_work.
15:38:40 <cpressey> it's something called "bug.n" written in something else called "AutoHotKey", some kind of send-msgs-to-windows-utility-language-thing.
15:38:47 -!- waga has changed nick to waga|bfing.
15:39:08 <waga|bfing> wow
15:39:14 <cpressey> i use cygwin a lot, but not X under cygwin
15:39:21 <waga|bfing> autohotkey is a very ugly language
15:39:28 <waga|bfing> i use linux and bsd
15:39:48 <waga|bfing> and rarely win on my dad´s laptop
15:39:49 <cpressey> oh yes, AHK rivals the NSIS installer language for ugly.
15:40:23 <cpressey> windows is mainly for work -- i have ubuntu or something on my laptop at home
15:40:32 <hiato> I use a morse key that feeds into my cpu
15:40:36 <cpressey> and used to run freebsd religiously
15:41:14 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:41:15 <asiekierka> Hello
15:41:34 <hiato> scratch that, a magnet and a coil linked to some of my bus lines
15:41:41 <oerjan> asiekierka: i'm sorry there are too many nationalities here at present.  please try again later.
15:41:43 <Deewiant> cpressey: "Completely normal keyboard" varies by country
15:42:40 * asiekierka is now asiekierka@077087179065.secretnorthkoreainternetaccessnetwork.cn
15:42:46 <oerjan> especially if you include the keyboards
15:43:35 <waga|bfing> Have you watched the North Coreea vs Brazill match?
15:43:41 <asiekierka> yes
15:43:54 <asiekierka> one of my online friends commented it:
15:43:58 <hiato> oerjan was in it
15:44:04 <asiekierka> "At least they won't kill the babies of the North Korean players"
15:44:06 <waga|bfing> NKPD has given a goal
15:44:18 <waga|bfing> not for shure
15:44:31 <waga|bfing> they usually have conferences
15:44:33 <waga|bfing> after that
15:44:49 <waga|bfing> and they have to accuse one eachother
15:44:59 <asiekierka> that's like Paranoia
15:45:02 <asiekierka> the roleplaying game
15:45:04 <asiekierka> ...oh wait
15:45:19 <asiekierka> why are the flags of #esoteric +cn
15:45:25 <asiekierka> i didn't know #esoteric was communist chinese
15:45:37 <oerjan> asiekierka: you are not cleared for that information, citizen
15:45:39 <waga|bfing> hehe
15:45:40 <hiato> we prefer DPR
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15:45:51 <waga|bfing> DPRK
15:45:59 <asiekierka> shut up, Friend Oerjan
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15:46:11 <waga|bfing> comrade oerjan
15:46:19 <asiekierka> Friend Oerjan
15:46:22 <waga|bfing> comrade oerjan
15:46:24 <asiekierka> just like Friend Computer!
15:46:40 <asiekierka> HOW CAN YOU MISNAME FRIEND OERJAN!
15:46:47 <asiekierka> See? See how evil is he?
15:46:51 <waga|bfing> i will anounce the local communist secret
15:46:53 <waga|bfing> ar
15:47:07 <waga|bfing> that you are an enemy of our beloved
15:47:12 <waga|bfing> country
15:47:25 <asiekierka> You know, communist organizations are illegal
15:47:28 <asiekierka> that means you're EVEN WORSE
15:47:45 <oerjan> asiekierka: clearly waga|bfing is the REAL evil communist mutant here
15:47:46 <waga|bfing> i love kim jong il
15:47:53 <waga|bfing> and obey him
15:47:56 <asiekierka> :O
15:47:56 -!- hiato has quit (Quit: you've been a wonderful audience, goodnight).
15:48:01 <waga|bfing> i belive in the juche laws
15:48:06 <asiekierka> Friend Oerjan! How can you still tolerate such behavior!?
15:48:15 <waga|bfing> and read all the 99999...999 books of the juche
15:48:36 <oerjan> waga|bfing: something tells me you are not quite acquainted with Paranoia
15:49:05 <waga|bfing> what does acquainted and paranoia mean?
15:49:20 <asiekierka> "<oerjan> Possesing such information is treason, waga"
15:49:21 <oerjan> (mind you i've never actually played it myself)
15:49:27 <asiekierka> (i did but i didnt do much)
15:49:30 <asiekierka> (it was fun though)
15:49:33 <asiekierka> (via IRC)
15:50:35 <oerjan> waga|bfing: paranoia is a roleplaying game, about a dystopia ruled by a computer
15:50:51 <asiekierka> where people are cloned
15:50:53 <asiekierka> and babies kileld
15:50:55 <asiekierka> killed*
15:50:55 <oerjan> the computer, and therefore everyone else, is paranoid
15:51:02 <waga|bfing> sing with me http://www.korea-dpr.com/hana.wmv
15:51:07 <waga|bfing> it´s karaoke
15:51:10 <waga|bfing> ^^
15:51:16 <asiekierka> the computer doesn't want anyone to plot against it
15:51:27 <asiekierka> so it banned anything that doesn't love and obey Friend Computer
15:51:38 <asiekierka> including communism (even though Paranoia is very communist itself)
15:52:58 <asiekierka> the point is
15:53:01 <asiekierka> as people are cloned
15:53:04 <asiekierka> genetic problems appear
15:53:09 <asiekierka> so everyone is a mutant and has a special ability
15:53:26 <asiekierka> though (unless you tell friend computer you have one which is really useless because you're constantly watched then) they're banned too
15:53:39 <asiekierka> and there are like
15:53:43 <asiekierka> 20 secret organizatiosn
15:53:45 <asiekierka> organizations*
15:53:55 <asiekierka> and you mostly belong to one of these
15:53:57 <asiekierka> all are illegal
15:54:27 <waga|bfing> http://www.korea-dpr.com/users/thai/slides/IMGA2832.htm
15:54:51 <asiekierka> including FCCC-P
15:54:59 <asiekierka> (pun intended)
15:55:04 <asiekierka> which is a Friend Computer-obedient organization
15:55:08 <asiekierka> even though they're also illegal
15:55:13 <asiekierka> they get out with a slap on a wrist
16:05:38 <waga|bfing> Please tell me an esoteric lang to learn
16:05:42 <waga|bfing> just boared
16:06:03 <cpressey> waga|bfing: Thue
16:06:21 <waga|bfing> thue is it´s name?
16:06:28 <cpressey> waga|bfing: yes
16:06:30 <asiekierka> waga|bfing: Unlambda
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16:23:07 * waga|bfing discovered 3code
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17:14:52 <cpressey> Does False have real closures?  Or are they just function pointer-like things?
17:20:12 <cpressey> You're going to make me write a test program to find out, AREN'T YOU.
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17:23:28 <coppro> woot, my Payola order parser is complete
17:23:34 <coppro> <3 Haskell
17:23:35 <waga> hi
17:23:57 <waga> how can i type this? v
17:24:08 <waga> it is a command in acronym
17:24:19 <waga> its like ^
17:24:21 <waga> but
17:24:30 <waga> in the other direction
17:25:00 <coppro> that's just a v
17:25:11 <coppro> the same as in Befunge
17:25:22 <cpressey> waga: You need one of these: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg
17:26:19 <fizzie> The (unmodified) Finnish keyboard layout I have here can type ↓ and ↑ with altgr-u and shift-altgr-u.
17:26:21 <waga> ok...
17:26:38 <waga> nice computer
17:26:49 <waga> evrika
17:26:57 <waga> it is v letter
17:26:59 <waga> i think
17:27:02 <waga> wait
17:27:16 <waga> yep
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17:27:19 <waga> it is
17:30:33 * waga is willing to do a bf interpreter in asm
17:30:39 <waga> maybe a bootloader
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17:39:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh no, EXCESS FLOOD!
17:41:01 * cpressey is still in the room (hasn't quit yet: Tolerable Amounts of Flood).
17:41:14 <waga> I see no flood.
17:41:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, you will soon.
17:41:31 <waga> I only see yutaka joining and quiting
17:41:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, the Space Cadet is incredibly cool.
17:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Meta, Super *and* Hyper.
17:43:39 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why anyone sane would code in GAS.
17:47:07 <fizzie> As in GNU as, or something else?
17:47:33 <Phantom_Hoover> GNU as.
17:47:44 <Phantom_Hoover> What else would it be?
17:48:05 <fizzie> Just based on the name, some sort of gas-simulation-based esolang.
17:48:40 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: And "Network".  And "<thumbs-up>".
17:48:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Huh?
17:49:07 <cpressey> Space Cadet keys.
17:49:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
17:49:15 <fizzie> I've written an amount of code in GNU as, just because I don't really know what other ARM assemblers there are, and the toolkit I had has GNU binutils in it.
17:49:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Symbolics machines looked generally brilliand.
17:49:38 <Phantom_Hoover> s/brilliand/brilliant/
17:50:05 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, Well, if there's nothing else, but it's very strange.
17:50:16 <Phantom_Hoover> At least for handwritten assembly.
17:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Compiler-generated assembly is understandable.
17:51:08 <waga> i know a great guy who programmes
17:51:09 <fizzie> It doesn't feel that bad for me.
17:51:10 <waga> in gas
17:51:19 <waga> he is founder of mirbsd
17:51:35 <waga> from him i learnt a bit of asm
17:51:55 <fizzie> I guess the macros are a bit strange, but it's not *that* horrible.
17:52:36 <waga> he made a bootloader with full filesystem support(about a dozen of them) to boot linux and bsd os-es
17:52:41 <waga> only in gas
17:52:46 <waga> gas is wierd
17:52:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it actually have a d? instruction?
17:52:58 <waga> but he says it´s better then nasm or fasm
17:53:09 <waga> no idea
17:53:15 * waga never used gas
17:53:52 <fizzie> It has .word and .byte such that can be used to insert raw data.
17:54:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
17:54:58 <fizzie> And .asciz + .ascii for text strings; it doesn't do stuff like db "foo", 0. But that's not such a huge annoyance.
18:00:19 <fizzie> It's a bit arbitrary at times. ".align X" on i386-elf (and many others) aligns so that the location counter is a multiple of X, but on i386-a.out (and also many others) it aligns so that the location counter will have X low-order bits zero (in other words, to a multiple of 2^X).
18:01:00 <fizzie> (It does have explicit .balign and .p2align which always behave the same way, though.)
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18:16:39 <waga> ok
18:16:42 <waga> good bye
18:16:50 <waga> have a nice day/evwning
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18:24:56 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so I have /dev/fd
18:25:03 <Phantom_Hoover> But not /dev/fd0.
18:25:07 <Phantom_Hoover> How do I get it?
18:26:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, /dev/fd is the file descriptors.
18:26:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Even more annoying.
18:26:19 <base3_> Phantom_Hoover: sudo cp /dev/fd /dev/fd0
18:26:21 <base3_> should do it
18:26:34 <Phantom_Hoover> base3_, no.
18:26:55 <Phantom_Hoover> /dev/fd0 should be a device file for a floppy.
18:27:07 <Phantom_Hoover> /dev/fd is a link to a directory of file descriptors.
18:28:05 <pikhq> I thought /dev/fd was actually a bunch of pseudo-files courtesy of Bash?
18:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> It corresponds to something in /proc/self
18:28:31 <pikhq> Regardless of implementation, though: that's file descriptor land.
18:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
18:28:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Not floppies.
18:29:00 <Phantom_Hoover> I have an image, but losetup won't loopify it.
18:29:14 <pikhq> How odd.
18:30:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, there isn't a loop module.
18:30:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Which raises questions in itself.
18:30:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Like why the hell I have /dev/loop*
18:30:39 <pikhq> I presume that your /dev/ is somehow not being managed by udev.
18:30:50 <Phantom_Hoover> A good conclusion.
18:31:23 <Phantom_Hoover> I have forgotten how to fix that.
18:31:36 <pikhq> Heavily distro-specific.
18:31:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmph.
18:31:47 * Phantom_Hoover Googles.
18:31:52 <pikhq> Though in general, it should be a very, very early part of init.
18:32:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm using Ubuntu, though I did modify some udev stuff months ago,
18:33:10 <base3_> i thought that ubuntu now has some experimental new alternaitve to udev
18:33:11 <pikhq> I know Gentoo actually does udev initialisation twice; once in the initrd and once in init. Granted, the initrd bit is done with mdev (Busybox's tiny udev-alike), and ceases to exist once chroot happens...
18:33:25 * Phantom_Hoover feels stupid.
18:33:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I forgot one of the arguments
18:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Oops.
18:33:44 <pikhq> base3_: No, there are two alternatives to udev in modern Linux: mdev (Busybox's udev-alike), and a manual, classic /dev filesystem.
18:34:07 <pikhq> There used to be devfs, but this is exceptionally archaic.
18:35:32 <Phantom_Hoover> /proc was originally a Plan 9 thing, wasn't it?
18:37:06 <pikhq> Yes, /proc is from Plan 9.
18:37:31 <pikhq> And adapted to many other UNIXes because, well, it's a good idea, very UNIXy, and incredibly easy to implement.
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19:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Is FreeDOS binary-compatible with... old.. DOS...
19:13:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: I bleev so
19:13:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I sort of lost the train of thought there.
19:13:43 <Phantom_Hoover> And I assume that it runs on modern x86 processors.
19:14:56 <cpressey> Yes.  All hail Intel!
19:21:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Can you install old DOS on modern x86 processors?
19:22:35 <cpressey> Well, I think, if there's a blocking issue, it would be disks.
19:22:40 <fizzie> It's not compatible enough to run Windows 3.11 (or 3.1 in 386 mode) on it, but other than that it's not bad.
19:23:44 <cpressey> Floppies are now rare, big partitions may well confuse it, and optical disks... well, there are probably drivers you can get... somewhere.
19:24:48 <cpressey> it = old DOS, I mean.  I would sooner trust FreeDOS to not get these sorts of things wrong.
19:25:09 <cpressey> Pretty sure FreeDOS has a nice generate ATAPI driver for CD-ROMs, for instance.
19:25:14 <cpressey> s/generate/generic/
19:25:41 <fizzie> FreeDOS does FAT32 and shouldn't be confused by (reasonably) large disks, and there is indeed a CD-ROM driver included.
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19:28:00 <fizzie> It's not difficult to find a generic-enough-to-work ATAPI CD-ROM driver for old DOS either, though.
19:28:14 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
19:28:17 <fizzie> DVDs, especially with UDF on them, might be more problematical.
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19:31:54 <fizzie> FreeDOS seems to have udvd.sys: "UDVD.SYS is a DOS driver for 1 to 3 CD/DVD drives, including SATA UltraDMA and older "PIO mode" drives."
19:32:45 <cpressey> Cool.  Do you happen to know if anything in FreeDOS groks USB?
19:32:54 <cpressey> Perhaps "grok" is too strong a word.
19:32:57 <cpressey> "Tolerates"?
19:34:27 <fizzie> I don't, but Wikipedia seems to do: "So far there is no USB driver support inside the FreeDOS project, but many modern motherboards contain BIOS settings for "Legacy USB" support which allow USB devices to be used in operating systems that lack support for them (such as FreeDOS). This applies to keyboards and mice, and some BIOSes can even support storage devices. --
19:34:29 <fizzie> -- Some external DOS USB drivers (such as DUSE, USBASPI and USBMASS) for storage devices work with some effort and luck. There is also DOSUSB which offers an API and supports storage devices, printers and serial adapters."
19:34:48 <fizzie> "some effort and luck" sounds very promising.
19:35:15 <cpressey> Ah yes, leveraging BIOS support.  Nice.
19:35:29 <pikhq> Of course, nothing but MS-DOS can run Windows 3.11, 3.1 in 386, or 95.
19:35:47 <pikhq> They had this exceptionally crazy routine called "sucking out the brains" of DOS.
19:36:06 <pikhq> Very dependent on an exact memory layout of deep, deep internals.
19:37:37 <fizzie> DR-DOS supposedly can do Wfw3.11.
19:38:56 <fizzie> Though a patch seems to be needed to circumvent the "is this MS-DOS or some competitor" detection of the installer. Cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code
19:39:51 <fizzie> "We need to smile at Novell while we pull the trigger."
19:41:29 <cpressey> Yeah, nice article.
19:41:58 <fizzie> Didn't read it very thoroughly; apparently they didn't use that bit in the final 3.1 release.
19:47:03 <Phantom_Hoover> What about Novell?
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19:47:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh.
19:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Good old Microsoft.
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20:13:01 <cpressey> I need better tools
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20:28:04 <cpressey> I need tools that know what I'm doing without me having to endlessly customize them.  Surely what I'm doing is not so unique that a framework for it which covers most of that space would not be unthinkable.
20:28:13 <cpressey> But, alise is not here today, so I'm talking to myself
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21:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there actually anything at 0x0?
21:14:01 <Phantom_Hoover> (Since it segfaults for obvious reasons)
21:21:04 <fizzie> Normally there's nothing mapped there, but I think you can mmap something there if you want.
21:21:37 <fizzie> At least my mmap man page seems to suggest that MAP_FIXED and 0 will map to 0.
21:22:18 <pikhq> fizzie: If the kernel has not been configured to not map that.
21:22:25 <pikhq> Linux, by default, will not map the first page.
21:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Ooh.
21:24:40 <fizzie> As for physical address 0, it should be perfectly usable RAM. Though the low region of the memory map are a bit messy. http://pastebin.com/eQkFp9i6
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21:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely Bad Things can happen if NULL is 0x0?
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21:26:59 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, the C64 (and C128) have some registers at bytes 0 and 1; there was some sort of clever trickery to actually read/write the RAM bytes "under" those, but it was pretty pointless.
21:27:06 <fizzie> D6510 0000 0 6510 On-chip Data Direction Register. R6510 0001 1 6510 On-chip 8-bit Input/Output Register.
21:27:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a simple way to reduce your clock speed?
21:28:23 <pikhq> Perfectly usable ram that Linux is set to avoid.
21:28:58 <pikhq> For the obvious reason that everything likes using it.
21:29:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Depends on the CPU.
21:29:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Assuming something of the x86 family?
21:29:42 <fizzie> On Linux, or just in generic?
21:29:46 <pikhq> Depends on the exact CPU.
21:29:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Generic, I suspect.
21:30:22 <Phantom_Hoover> DOS, more specifically.
21:30:43 <pikhq> Depends on CPU manufacturer, CPU model, year made, etc.
21:30:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Goodness.
21:31:02 <fizzie> You could implement the ACPI way, I guess, that's somewhat widely supported on modern systems.
21:31:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Assuming something modern?
21:31:26 <oerjan> fizzie: i seem to recall 6502 had special instructions for addressing the first 256 bytes of memory, perhaps 6510 did too...
21:31:27 <pikhq> You've still got the Intel and AMD ways. Though I'm pretty sure you can just use ACPI and it'll mostly work.
21:33:30 <oerjan> *special addressing mode for some instructions
21:35:22 <fizzie> Yes, the "zero page" is special.
21:35:40 <fizzie> Still, any general CPU-initiated memory access will hit those registers.
21:37:43 <oerjan> mhm
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21:39:44 <fizzie> Possibly it is so that it was the C128 "MMU" (if you can call it that) that made it possible to access those bytes. Though I do recall that there was some C64 trick. Can't seem to google it right now.
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22:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Is it a reasonable assumption that a bootloader will have entirely zeroed memory?
22:02:08 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: ... not in my world
22:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> WHY?
22:02:26 <cpressey> On boot, RAM could be filled with anything
22:02:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It's RAM! It's not persistent!
22:02:42 <Phantom_Hoover> What is putting stuff in it?
22:02:44 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe you should study electronics :)
22:03:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: What would guarantee that any given bit is low?
22:03:10 <Phantom_Hoover> I have not the time.
22:03:33 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Then just take my word for it... you can't rely on it.
22:03:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn.
22:03:52 <cpressey> Unless the machine manufacturer says you can because they did something special to make that happen.
22:03:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So you have to spend ages zeroing out an appropriate area?
22:04:16 <cpressey> If... you want it to contain only zeroes... yes.
22:04:54 <cpressey> I get the impression that usually happens to each chunk just before allocation, rather than all at once at boot.
22:05:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, of course.
22:08:46 <pikhq> At boot, the RAM contains random data.
22:09:26 <pikhq> Unless it has been recent enough for the data contained to have not been erased; in which case, it contains the data from the previous run of the computer (possibly corrupted).
22:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
22:10:21 <Phantom_Hoover> (I'd assumed that when power was cut, all bits went to 0.)
22:10:48 <cpressey> They tend to, but it takes time.  And "tend" is not a very strong word.
22:10:56 <pikhq> Nowhere *near* that convenient.
22:11:15 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure it's more *likely* to be 0 than one, but it's still very, very, very indeterminate.
22:11:27 <cpressey> Entropy, ain't it great?
22:12:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:13:24 <Phantom_Hoover_> Damn entropy.
22:14:21 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
22:14:32 <Phantom_Hoover_> Yay!
22:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover_> I always feel sorry for the coyote.
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22:17:20 <fizzie> That's the "bip" bouncer/proxy default quit-message; I use it too. (Unless it was written manually, or used by something else too.)
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22:35:57 <cpressey> What ho, hiato!
22:37:11 <hiato> Might I extend my most humble greetings to you, sir
22:39:44 <hiato> bleh, cpressey, what is an era-related appropriate response to that?
22:43:06 <cpressey> hiato: You know, I'm not sure... mostly people just treat Wooster like the halfwit he his.  Except Jeeves, who would say something along the lines of what you said.  Maybe briefer.
22:43:45 -!- cpressey has changed nick to Wooster.
22:50:03 * Phantom_Hoover realises that he can just pass the bin file for a bootloader to QEMU and it still works.
22:57:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn.
22:59:22 <pikhq> You can actually directly pass a bzimage and initrd to Qemu and it works.
22:59:42 <pikhq> Erm. bzimage, initrd, and kernel command line.
23:00:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, I know that.
23:00:51 <Phantom_Hoover> But I was messing around with custom bootloaders.
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23:50:08 <ehirdiphone> .
23:50:49 <zzo38> "T100 L4 CFG8F#8F G8H8F8H8JP4 >C<JG8F#8F L8H#G16C16DEF4P4"
23:50:53 <ehirdiphone> Hi zzo38.
23:50:59 <zzo38> .
23:51:09 <Wooster> Wow
23:51:12 <ehirdiphone> Quite.
23:51:34 <ehirdiphone> Wooster: Stop hiding!
23:51:40 -!- Wooster has changed nick to cpressey.
23:51:51 <ehirdiphone> Feeble disguise!
23:51:54 <ehirdiphone> :P
23:52:16 <cpressey> Bally clever fellow found me out, what?
23:52:22 * ehirdiphone dons cape; becomes super-hero
23:52:34 <zzo38> The "!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net" stays same regardless of NICK command
23:53:04 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: WE DO NOT USE THAT MODE OF SPEAKING -- OR UPPERCASE!
23:53:42 <ehirdiphone> I conclude that using a smuggled iPhone makes me retarded.
23:53:48 <zzo38> What mode?
23:54:02 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: Wodehouse Mode.
23:54:21 <zzo38> What does that mean?
23:54:26 <ehirdiphone> A new favourite, it seems, of Mr. Pressey here.
23:54:50 <ehirdiphone> zzo38: A certain author's style of character. Can you guess his name?
23:55:01 <ehirdiphone> Hint: it is Wodehouse.
23:55:18 <cpressey> Don't worry, it will soon shift to 30s Chicago Gangster mode, see?
23:55:19 <pikhq> How farest thou, sir Ehird of the iPhone?
23:55:34 <ehirdiphone> Toidy toid street.
23:55:54 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Real answer, or expected?
23:56:02 <ehirdiphone> I suspect you know both.
23:56:17 <pikhq> Yes, though I am honestly interested in thy welfare.
23:56:35 <pikhq> So, no change. Alas.
23:56:56 <zzo38> About custom bootloaders... I have written a MBR code:  B8 00 B8 8E C0 B0 70 B9 A0 0F 31 FF F3 AA B8 60 00 8E C0 B8 3E 02 B9 02 00 31 DB FA 9C 06 53 FF 2E 4C 00 0F 0B
23:57:15 <ehirdiphone> Shut up; the shouldn't-be-called-a-teacher is ruining Shakespearean language for me.
23:57:21 <pikhq> I don't read x86 machine code, even in heck.
23:57:30 <pikhq> How so?
23:57:36 <ehirdiphone> Heck. Really now.
23:57:45 <pikhq> s/heck/hex/
23:58:00 <pikhq> It seems as my Japanese improves my English degrades.
23:58:05 <zzo38> Hex is how I wrote it, though
23:58:25 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Imagine the worst possible way to teach a terrible curriculum involving Shakespeare's plays. No! Wrong! Worse.
23:58:26 <cpressey> Heck-sad-easy-meal
23:58:32 <pikhq> AGH
23:58:48 <ehirdiphone> Iterate until you can't: then once more.
23:58:49 <zzo38> If you write a long bootloader code and you need a small MBR code to load it, you can use this one
23:58:50 <pikhq> THIS CAUSES INJURIOUS PAIN UNTO MY HEADBRAIN
23:59:02 <ehirdiphone> Now you never want to hear "thou" again.
23:59:38 <pikhq> I suggest you look up which regions still have "thou" in the common vernacular and *avoid them like the plague*.
23:59:53 <ehirdiphone> pikhq: Pain / headbrain. Hey, it rhymes.