←2010-06-16 2010-06-17 2010-06-18→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:03 <zzo38> I tried to write a short Bohlen-Pierce music, I don't know how good it is to you. "T100 L4 CFG8F#8F G8H8F8H8JP4 >C<JG8F#8F L8H#G16C16DEF4P4" It is like QBASIC but using Bohlen-Pierce notes
00:00:10 <ehirdiphone> Which regions? The moving one containing you?
00:00:16 <pikhq> (most of them are in Scotland, but there are a few in the US)
00:00:28 <pikhq> ehirdiphone: No, as part of the normal dialect.
00:00:36 <zzo38> I suggest you don't figure out which regions to avoid according to if they use "thou" or not?
00:00:44 <pikhq> It's a tenacious pronoun.
00:01:45 <cpressey> How 'bout "yonder"?
00:01:46 <zzo38> (With the MBR code: Fill the rest with null bytes)
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00:03:15 <cpressey> zzo38: Out of curiosity, is this a full list of your languages, or have you invented any new ones lately? http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38
00:03:42 <zzo38> cpressey: Any time I invent new ones and I type it on the wiki, I will add it into that list.
00:03:44 <cpressey> I guess Dd/dd is new?
00:03:49 <cpressey> Since I last looked.
00:04:02 <zzo38> I suppose it is, if you didn't see it before
00:04:04 <cpressey> OK, good to know. Thanks.
00:04:47 <zzo38> Make a list of esolangs it is possible to write a paradox code, "Hyper Set Language" is one of them.
00:05:38 <ehirdiphone> Any language permitting infinite loops.
00:06:05 <ehirdiphone> x() := { !x() }
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00:06:26 <zzo38> Are you sure that counts? It might count in some program langages
00:06:28 <ehirdiphone> Then x() == !x()
00:06:44 <ehirdiphone> In hyper set language it is just an infloop too.
00:06:45 <cpressey> LABEL: if (self.halts()) goto LABEL; else exit(0);
00:07:07 <ehirdiphone> But x == !x is the DEFINITION of a paradox.
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00:07:08 <zzo38> cpressey: I like that, it is interesting idea
00:07:54 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: Hyper set language is a different kind of infinite loop, in some way, of course no computer can actually do it, either way.
00:07:57 <ehirdiphone> It's not his :P
00:08:31 <cpressey> not exactly mine, but i thought it was a nice way to illustrate what's going on in the halting problem
00:08:43 <cpressey> the phrasing is mine, afaik
00:10:42 <ehirdiphone> P := [ Run(P) if Halts(P); Halt otherwise. ]
00:10:48 <Sgeo__> Hi ehirdiphone
00:11:05 <ehirdiphone> Where [...] is "this function but in the tc language".
00:12:03 <cpressey> Unfortunately, I gotta run.
00:12:08 <Sgeo__> ehirdiphone, I'm turning into you
00:12:12 <cpressey> Take care, folks.
00:12:17 <zzo38> Run! Run until you fall off!
00:12:27 <cpressey> wheeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!
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00:12:39 <zzo38> It is unsafe everywhere! And if you fall off, it is not safe either, because you will fall off!
00:13:08 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__: How?
00:13:17 <Sgeo__> Not going to sleep
00:13:45 <Sgeo__> I did buy some melatonin, and will put away [not turn off] the computer before I start getting ready for bed
00:13:54 <zzo38> I think the movie time service in my computer is broken now
00:15:54 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__: SLEEP IS FOR THE WEAK
00:16:02 <ehirdiphone> No seriously sleep.
00:16:32 <Sgeo__> I'm eating dinner at 8, getting ready for bed at 11, and sleeping at midnight
00:21:42 <Sgeo__> ehirdiphone, I'm thinking that when I'm finally able to get to Blue Mars, I'm not going to like it
00:21:59 <ehirdiphone> It's too new!
00:22:09 <Sgeo__> lol
00:22:15 <Sgeo__> Actually, it's too Apple-esque
00:22:54 <Sgeo__> Developers submit their cities to QA before they're available for online chat
00:23:17 <Sgeo__> And it's not just technical stuff -- they have apparently said that some things can be too adult
00:23:17 <zzo38> Do you like any of this ideas for D&D adventure game:
00:23:27 <zzo38> * You have a magic item that you must figure out how to use in order to escape
00:23:38 <zzo38> * This problem must be solved using mathematics, but there is no clue that says mathematics required
00:23:48 <zzo38> * A monster was evil, now they want to learn to be good (and not evil), they expect the PC(s) to help them
00:23:52 <zzo38> * You found a book, describing someone reading a book about things similar (but not quite) the things happening now
00:23:58 <zzo38> * Combine multiple situations together, you have multiple things to worry about dealing with all at once
00:24:33 <zzo38> * In the obituaries, people seem to be mysteriously dying in alphabetical order
00:24:34 <ehirdiphone> * ALL OF THOSE IN ONE
00:24:52 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: That is what the "Combine multiple situations...." is for
00:25:45 <Sgeo__> Can you combine combining multiple situations with combinining multiple situations?
00:25:51 * Sgeo__ feels like being silly
00:26:31 <ehirdiphone> You have to help the monster by escaping using the magic item which requires mathematics to use by analysing the obituary order...
00:26:57 <ehirdiphone> Thus finding the inaccurate future book which nevertheless saves the day!
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00:27:29 <zzo38> ehirdiphone: Interesting idea! I like that
00:27:49 <zzo38> Although it isn't exactly what I meant, but it is still good, too.
00:29:34 <zzo38> Have you ever heard of any D&D games with anything similar to any of these ideas at all?
00:30:20 <coppro> ehirdiphone: whoa, it's a Wednesday!
00:30:26 <coppro> you ever played Diplomacy?
00:31:03 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Iphone. Smuggled.
00:31:30 <zzo38> Diplomacy? Is that some kind of card game?
00:32:03 <ehirdiphone> And I'm actually just leaving. Farewell. Sgeo__!
00:32:11 <Sgeo__> Bye ehirdiphone
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00:32:23 <Sgeo__> zzo38, it's a board game with no randomness
00:32:49 <Sgeo__> Just allying with and backstabbing other players
00:33:09 <zzo38> Many games have no randomness, and there are new ones
00:33:13 <zzo38> Some have hidden information, though
00:35:47 <zzo38> I have once played some cholocate making game, in anime convention, there is only one random part at the beginning is what card you pick up, and that is the only hidden information, nobody else can see your card. Other than that, there is no random or hidden information
00:37:28 <Sgeo__> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/jun/16/terry-pratchett-science-fiction-book
00:37:57 <Sgeo__> The only hidden information is the other player's true intentions, and the moves the other players wrote down before the turn is executed [not sure of the terminology]
00:39:09 <uorygl> How easy is it to move between European nations? Can I just say, "I don't like Finland today; I'm going to go to Sweden"?
00:40:21 <coppro> uorygl: I don't know about residence, but as far as casual travel goes, the Schengen zone is basically that easy to move in
00:40:52 <uorygl> I do mean residence.
00:41:12 <coppro> I think that still varies from state to state
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01:10:35 <Sgeo__> Is it safe to take melatonin even if I'm tired
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01:39:03 * Sgeo__ fantasizes about paying off his sleep dept and then learning new math, increasing my knowledge
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02:00:57 <cheater99> hello sweet cheeks
02:01:04 <cheater99> what's crackin'
02:32:36 <pikhq> uorgyl: In the Schengen zone, residence is a matter of: moving.
02:32:48 <pikhq> You can say "I don't like Finland today; I'm moving to Sweden."
02:33:25 <pikhq> From EU member nations *to* the Schengen zone is just a matter of showing your passport on the way out.
02:33:39 <coppro> pikhq: Really? There are no residence controls either?
02:33:41 <pikhq> (well. EU member nations that aren't Schengen. Looking at you, UK and Ireland.)
02:33:45 <pikhq> coppro: None at all.
02:33:48 <coppro> wow, awesome
02:33:54 <coppro> why is this not global yet
02:34:01 <coppro> (yes, I know)
02:34:22 <pikhq> I actually don't know; the Schengen zone *is* much more general than just the EU.
02:34:42 <pikhq> It's a completely seperate treaty that just happens to include most of the EU.
02:35:08 <pikhq> Well. It also makes reference to "European citizens" being allowed into it freely. This being the only actual reference to the EU in said treaty.
02:35:17 <pikhq> (a European citizen is a citizen of a EU member nation)
02:36:40 <coppro> I'm sure the reason is a) that it's seen primarily as a European institution, b) the few non-Euro countries that would be possibly be accepted aren't really interested and c) Any non-Euro nation joining the zone would feel like it was ceding its immigration policy to the EU
02:37:38 <pikhq> There are many non-EU nations in the Schengen zone.
02:37:51 <coppro> yeah, but they're European
02:38:07 <pikhq> Iceland, only on a technicality.
02:38:23 <coppro> true
02:38:29 <coppro> imagine if Canada did it
02:38:39 <coppro> politically, it just wouldn't work well
02:38:43 <coppro> trade rules and such
02:38:51 <pikhq> Unless Canada and the US did so simultaneously.
02:38:55 <pikhq> (which I would love)
02:39:42 <coppro> I wasn't even thinking about trade across the IB; just the fact that it would open Canada-EU trade to a massive extent that neither party is probably comfortable with (for whatever reason, I don't know)
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02:42:34 <pikhq> Anyways. Basically, *this* is the real map of Europe: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/Schengen_Agreement_map.svg
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02:42:50 <coppro> yeah
02:42:55 <pikhq> (red = EU member not in Schengen, blue = Schengen, green = future Schengen member)
02:43:19 <coppro> (don't get me wrong, it would be absolutely amazing if Canada signed onto Schengen. The US simply won't.
02:44:17 <pikhq> Oh, the US would. It would take either a fairly major change in political climate or the *rest* of the world signing on (and then a century's wait), though.
02:44:38 <coppro> heh
02:44:43 <coppro> I don't actually think so
02:44:55 <coppro> the right-wing USAians are too anti-immigration
02:45:01 <coppro> Canadians could come and steal their jobs!
02:45:31 <pikhq> Yeah, uh... Those right-wing USAians are almost universally 50 and over.
02:45:41 <coppro> that's true, I suppose
02:45:54 <pikhq> The way to get rid of them is to let time take its toll. :P
02:46:01 <coppro> interestingly enough, Canada's immigration policy is in fact weirdly isolationist
02:46:15 <pikhq> Can't compare with Japan's, though.
02:46:23 <coppro> lol nope
02:46:32 <coppro> but for a nation touted as immigrant-friendly, I mean
02:46:51 <pikhq> Which is set up under the assumption that only a minority of people would want to be there permanently.
02:46:53 <coppro> it would be a major upheaval for us to join Schengen, and probably trigger a wave of immigration from Europe (which would no doubt upset the Euros)
02:47:03 <coppro> not a massive wave, mind you
02:47:05 <coppro> but enough to annoy
02:47:40 <pikhq> Also, the US's is very weirdly isolationist in design considering both the history of this country *and* how many people actually do immigrate.
02:47:42 <pikhq> (legally)
02:48:15 <pikhq> Pretty darned weird to think that you'd want to avoid immigrants in a country where the *natives* are a very small minority.
02:49:24 <coppro> heh
02:49:37 <coppro> also, the law enforcement stuff would seriously vex Canadian institutions
02:50:05 <uorygl> `quote furry
02:50:13 <HackEgo> 39|<GKennethR-L>
02:50:21 <uorygl> What a brief quote.
02:50:39 <uorygl> `quote addquote
02:50:40 <HackEgo> 123|[Warrigal] `addquote <Dylan> hahaha, Lawlabee is running windows <Lawlabee> cuz its pretty awesome. [Lawlabee] Warrigal: :(
02:50:55 <uorygl> That quote is pretty confusing.
02:51:01 <Gregor> Yes.
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02:57:48 <coppro> pikhq: maybe the US joining would finally convince the IRS that their jurisdiction does not extend outside the USA
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02:58:42 <leBMD> There was some serious karma going on today.
02:59:05 <leBMD> I told my friend that I couldn't hang out because I was programming, and shortly thereafter my modem stopped working.
03:00:42 <pikhq> coppro: No, nothing short of a genocide program against IRS employees could convince them of that.
03:02:39 <Gregor> Argh, GCC is being annoying. Or maybe it's the fact that I insist that everything must compile with -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic that's warning?
03:02:45 <Gregor> s/warning?/annoying?/
03:03:10 <Gregor> Stupid inability to have empty structs. Argh.
03:03:14 <pikhq> Probably the -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic thing.
03:03:20 <Gregor> Very preprocessor-metaprogramming-incompatible.
03:03:32 <Gregor> Are there any empty types? :P
03:03:40 <pikhq> void[0]
03:03:47 <pikhq> Might be a GCC extension. :P
03:03:54 <Gregor> That's an error with -Wall -Werror -ansi -pedantic
03:04:07 <pikhq> Ah, yes, -ansi would do that.
03:04:09 <Gregor> I guess I'm just going to have to start making static consts from my macros.
03:04:31 <pikhq> With -std=c99, you could have a char[0].
03:04:37 <pikhq> (I think)
03:04:44 <pikhq> (these can only exist in structs)
03:04:58 <Gregor> Nope
03:05:12 <pikhq> Hrm. It might be a char[], then?
03:05:52 <Gregor> I'm just gonna generate static consts :P
03:06:02 <pikhq> Okay then.
03:06:10 <Gregor> Any compiler worth squat won't actually take runtime memory for those.
03:06:24 <coppro> a char[] in a struct creates a variably-sized struct
03:06:39 <coppro> which is all sorts of fun
03:07:05 <pikhq> coppro: Technically, the struct does not have any (addtional) size, but rather, there is an array immediately following the struct. :P
03:07:24 <coppro> yeah, yeah
03:07:26 <pikhq> And yeah, it *is* type[], not type[0].
03:07:46 <pikhq> type[0] is the GCC extension that does the same exact thing, but is older than C99.
03:08:00 <coppro> more fun is when LLVM or clang do the same thing on their own in C++ by allocating excess memory
03:12:22 <uorygl> What if the Unicode guys accidentally gave two characters the same official name?
03:12:30 <uorygl> Names are supposed to be immutable.
03:12:37 <coppro> they wouldn't
03:12:51 <coppro> it would show up when they tried to write the files and test them
03:12:52 <uorygl> They did produce a character called a BRAKCET.
03:13:04 <pikhq> The Unicode database would break.
03:13:14 <pikhq> You do realise they manage it programatically, right? ;)
03:13:55 <pikhq> They can't guarantee correct spelling *trivially*. (well, they couldn't then; no easy spellchecker libraries around then. Can now.) But uniqueness of names? Piece of cake.
03:14:00 <uorygl> I guess that's true.
03:14:07 <pikhq> And fundamental to how they manage it anyways.
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04:21:41 <leBMD> PDCurses just made programmign fun again.
04:21:47 <leBMD> programming*
04:21:56 <coppro> evidently you've never used Haskell
04:22:21 <pikhq> Clearly.
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04:22:48 <leBMD> I'm guessing Haskell is fun to program in?
04:23:02 <coppro> yes
04:24:23 <leBMD> ah, but do you have nice buzz words like getch and refresh in haskel?? XD
04:24:31 <leBMD> haskell?*
04:26:39 <coppro> we have monads
04:26:46 <leBMD> lol
04:27:20 <leBMD> monads soounds like go......DAD!
04:27:29 <leBMD> yeah, that's it! Totally not somethign else!
04:31:50 <pikhq> leBMD: Haskell has evolved beyond buzzwords and into pure amazingness.
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04:32:10 <leBMD> lol
04:32:12 <pikhq> It is purely functional with first-class imperative actions.
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05:05:18 <Miriah> Hello.. o.o
05:06:14 <pikhq> Hello there.
05:06:27 <pikhq> The topic, though amusing, is made of lies.
05:10:28 <Miriah> ?
05:10:39 <Miriah> It's made of lies?
05:11:13 <pikhq> Well. We're into esoteric programming languages.
05:11:29 <pikhq> Otherwise? Eh.
05:15:08 <Miriah> Oh.. Thanks for letting me know.
05:15:44 <Miriah> I suppose I'm going to go then. ^^;
05:15:44 <pikhq> Well, the "government conspiracies" thing does at least have relation with a piece of collaborative fiction that many of us here enjoy...
05:15:51 <pikhq> Mmm, SCP. Great reading.
05:16:24 <Miriah> It sounds interesting.. What exactly is SCP?
05:17:30 <pikhq> "Serve Contain Protect". It's a wiki containing fictional documents claiming to describe the classified means of containing various magical/supernatural/holy items, most of which are incredibly dangerous.
05:18:01 <pikhq> Not the raison d'etre of this channel or anything. Just something I've noted a few people here read on occasion.
05:26:08 <Miriah> Reading about it now.. Is it the SCP foundation?
05:26:24 <pikhq> Yuh.
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05:38:13 <pikhq> Gregor: ?
05:38:25 <Gregor> So much lawls :P
05:38:29 <pikhq> Alas.
05:43:55 <Gregor> And it's all my fault 8-D
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06:58:38 <SevenInc1Bread> Hey.
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07:24:53 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: In real mode you can use the segment registers as general purpose registers, but it is not optimal. But you can do that if you run out of registers
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07:26:01 <zzo38> While solitaire games can be made in PySol, but in my opinion a better way would be like this: http://sprunge.us/aLMb
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07:36:44 <zzo38> augur: Do you? **Do you?**
07:39:17 <augur> YES
07:39:18 <augur> NO
07:39:19 <augur> I DONT KNOW
07:39:20 <augur> MAYBE
07:39:23 <augur> DO I WHAT
07:39:24 <augur> ?!
07:39:26 <augur> D:
07:39:41 <zzo38> Do you While solitaire games can be made in PySol, but in my opinion a better way would be like this: http://sprunge.us/aLMb
07:39:47 <augur> no
07:39:48 <augur> what
07:39:48 <augur> no
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07:40:27 <zzo38> Why?
07:40:38 <zzo38> I would like your opinion about this
07:42:39 <zzo38> Also, do you know anything about GNU compiler front-ends?
07:45:06 <coppro> I know that LLVM ones are easier to write
07:45:21 <coppro> beyond that, i know nothing
07:45:28 <pikhq> I know that it's all undocumented.
07:45:47 <pikhq> And that I would rather use a spork on my eyes than write one.
07:45:58 <coppro> ah, yes, I forgot about that
07:46:00 <coppro> definitely
07:46:35 <coppro> <3 Chris Lattner
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07:53:05 <zzo38> Have you done LLVM?
07:54:56 <pikhq> LLVM's API is a bit annoying if you're not into C++.
07:55:57 <pikhq> However, you can also treat LLVM as just another assembly language. One which happens to possess its own optimiser and machine code generator...
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08:54:09 <waga> hi
09:04:36 <waga> echo??
09:04:42 <waga> anyone?
09:06:19 <waga> echoooooo??????
09:06:58 * waga thinks everybody has gone to the watercooler
09:08:23 * waga thinks that now everybody has gone to the WC
09:20:32 * waga thinks that now everybody felt in the WC because of the wet floor and died from
09:23:47 * waga shouts
09:23:53 * waga screams
09:23:58 <waga> aaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh
09:25:01 * waga bangs he's had
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09:31:13 <pineapple> ?
09:35:46 <waga> hi
09:35:59 <waga> you should be one of the survivors ^^
09:44:56 <Ilari> Nah, almost everybody just ate too many carbs for lunch and are now in semi-coma... :->
09:45:57 <Ilari> So, any esolang ideas? :-)
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09:52:59 <waga> Well
09:53:01 <waga> mine sucks
09:53:15 <waga> its just a tree brainfuck
09:53:16 <waga> http://pastebin.com/SLmjDXPk
09:53:46 <waga> What do ýou think?
09:54:21 <waga> I am not quite fond of it... Maybe I'll get a better idea these day's.
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09:57:41 <waga> NEWS: i made an update
09:57:55 <waga> Anybody not in semi-coma?
09:58:11 <waga> http://pastebin.com/7zwCJ3JT
09:58:15 <waga> update
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11:56:05 <MALDEK> oo
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11:58:44 <MALDEK> someone on?
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14:11:37 <asiekierka> hi, i had an idea
14:11:52 <asiekierka> actually, scratch that, im not saying it out loud :P
14:11:57 <asiekierka> because ill probably never finish it
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15:44:55 <asiekierka> what
15:44:57 <asiekierka> oh man what
15:45:48 <asiekierka> some guy asked his school to make the school's bell
15:45:55 <asiekierka> a part of "Never Gonna Give You Up"
15:45:58 <asiekierka> ...THEY ACCEPTED IT.
15:46:14 <asiekierka> Now the guys and girls in that school are tormented EVERY. DAY (Except Sundays. And maybe Saturdays.)
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15:53:09 <oerjan> asiekierka: now that is epic rickrolling
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16:16:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a way of getting gcc to produce unformatted binary?
16:16:57 <Phantom_Hoover> i.e. not ELF or anything like it.
16:17:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: An x86 *.COM file?
16:17:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Effectively.
16:17:48 <cpressey> That's as close to "unformatted" as I imagine something like gcc could do.
16:17:57 <cpressey> But I have no idea if it can, sorry :)
16:18:12 <cpressey> I use NASM when I want one of those ;)
16:18:17 <Phantom_Hoover> As in, callable by a bootloader with a minimum of fuss.
16:21:11 <cpressey> Thinking about it, I really doubt gcc can do that. It needs, or at least really really really wants, to link in libc.
16:21:30 <cpressey> And linking things into a .COM file is not a problem that anyone want to try solving.
16:22:39 <fizzie> You can produce an object file from GCC, then objcopy it into a binary blob; but you'd need an object file with no relocations at all for that.
16:23:11 <fizzie> "objcopy can be used to generate a raw binary file by using an output target of binary (e.g., use -O binary). When objcopy generates a raw binary file, it will essentially produce a memory dump of the contents of the input object file. All symbols and relocation information will be discarded. The memory dump will start at the load address of the lowest section copied into the output file."
16:24:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ...Load address of the lowest section?
16:24:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Ohh.
16:24:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I get it now.
16:24:57 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you can use GCC perfectly well without libc.
16:25:23 <fizzie> A linked executable typically only works when loaded into a particular address (or relocated dynamically, I guess).
16:27:51 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Sorry, I think I meant libcrt0, or whatever it's called.
16:28:00 <cpressey> And I assume you're using it to compile a C program.
16:28:36 <cpressey> Since it's like, a "compiler collection" these days, or something, so I guess you could be doing pretty much anything with it.
16:28:38 <fizzie> -nostdlib skips also the standard startup files.
16:28:40 <Phantom_Hoover> What does libcrt do?
16:28:54 <fizzie> You can use GCC relatively easily as a "freestanding" compiler.
16:29:08 <fizzie> It has the bits from _start to main, basically.
16:32:39 <fizzie> Actually, just a simple "gcc -o test test.c -nostdlib -Wl,--oformat=binary -Wl,--entry=entrypoint" will create a file "test" that seems to (according to ndisasm) start with reasonable compiled code, though it does have some extraneous useless data too. You could possibly get better results by compiling to a normal ELF executable, then objcopying only selected sections.
16:34:39 <fizzie> That would mean the code would expect to be loaded to whatever the normal linker specs files say, probably at 0x400000 on Linux. And you'd need to objdump the proper empty point out of the ELF headers, it definitely isn't guaranteed to end up at the start of the object file.
16:35:30 <cpressey> I am duly impressed.
16:35:32 <fizzie> It's not very difficult to write a linker script + specs for GNU ld such that it will put all symbols into a single section with a particular load address.
16:36:05 <Phantom_Hoover> "While the forum has several flamewars about BASIC, it is a turing-complete language."
16:36:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I think we can be pedantic about this.
16:36:57 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Sure, I'll pedantically defend that BASIC is TC :)
16:37:07 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
16:37:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it specify a sizeof operator?
16:38:14 <cpressey> Not that I know of. Some variants of BASIC for some 8-bit home computers might have -- FRE(x) returning the amount of free memory is reminiscent.
16:39:29 <cpressey> It has strings, and garbage collection. You can say A$=A$+"." until the cows come home.
16:40:29 * asiekierka notices the cows came hme
16:40:31 * asiekierka notices the cows came home*
16:40:43 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Actually, if you want to generate a binary file that will actually have a particular function at the very beginning, you can do that pretty easily too. Just mark the function with __attribute__ ((section (".init"))) and instruct the linker to put that section first. The custom start files I have for Nintendo DS do it like that (except the entry point is in a asm file, not with a GCC function attribute), because you can
16:40:43 <fizzie> 't really tell the DS boot loader where to start from, it'll start at the beginning of the loaded code always.
16:41:15 <oerjan> cpressey: you probably need big ints to actually _use_ most of those unbounded string parts, don't you?
16:41:43 <oerjan> hm or wait
16:41:45 <cpressey> oerjan: LEFT$(X$,6) and RIGHT$(X,6) will let you write a cyclic tag system
16:41:55 <cpressey> 6 being a small integer of your choice
16:42:16 <cpressey> BASIC, TC through cyclic tag. ugh.
16:42:40 <oerjan> cpressey: hm right, assuming right$(X,6) is everything from index 6 until the end?
16:42:47 <asiekierka> as there's magic and magick
16:42:54 <asiekierka> i call basic baSICK
16:43:01 <cpressey> oerjan: I thought it was the rightmost 6 characters, but it *has* been a long time.
16:43:23 <oerjan> cpressey: um that's not enough for a cyclic tag system then
16:43:39 <oerjan> you need to be able to _remove_ parts
16:43:40 <cpressey> asiekierka: I always wanted to design a language called SICKBAY, that was BASIC, inverted...
16:44:20 <cpressey> oerjan: Hm. Then yes. I think some BASICs supported RIGHT$(X$,1)="" or similar, but I don't think of it as standard.
16:44:49 <asiekierka> i want to implement a compilable esolang of sorts for the C64
16:44:50 <asiekierka> err
16:44:52 <asiekierka> for the 6502*
16:45:06 <oerjan> i vaguely recall a MID$() function
16:45:21 <cpressey> Well, no prohibition against bigints, as far as I'm aware: numbers are floating point, and it's not like the floating point limits were specified.
16:45:33 <cpressey> MID$() would need big ints to get to arb parts of the str
16:45:55 <oerjan> cpressey: i was just wondering if MID$ took until the end of the string if you dropped the last argument
16:46:03 <oerjan> because then it could be used
16:46:06 <cpressey> oerjan: I think it does.
16:46:20 <cpressey> Oh, LEFT$(MID$(X$,N),1)
16:46:21 <cpressey> :)
16:46:23 <oerjan> (as what i thought you meant by the RIGHT$())
16:47:10 <cpressey> OK, LEFT$(MID$(X$,N),1) = MID$(X$,N,1)
16:47:17 <cpressey> n/m, confused.
16:47:18 <oerjan> you could also do stacks and thus a BF tape easily with those
16:47:39 <oerjan> MID$(X$,2) to pop
16:48:16 <cpressey> Yes.
16:52:03 <cpressey> asiekierka: I've thought about that (compiled esolang for 6502), too, but I can never seem to combine my interests in esolangs AND 8-bits for some reason.
16:52:58 <cpressey> It's like they are both beautiful microworlds to me, but they're not compatible culturally somehow.
16:53:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: This may be useful for something: http://pastebin.com/214g1HHW -- it's possible (untested) that would produce a binary file that you can load to 0x1234 (customizable) and which will contain the special ".init" section first, then the code and initialized data, and uninitialized .bss section stuff immediately after. Your loader would need to zero from __bss_start to __bss_end (symbols defined by the linker) for uninitia
16:53:41 <fizzie> lized data to work right, though.
16:56:03 <fizzie> s/loader/whatever's in the .init section/; of course the loader can't see the linker-defined symbols anywhere.
16:58:47 * cpressey continues to be duly impressed by fizzie coaxing what is almost a .COM file out of gcc/ld.
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16:59:59 <fizzie> That was quickly adapted from the DS stuff I had, so it's not very concise. You don't actually need a "MEMORY" section there, for example, especially when there's only one type of memory.
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17:00:33 <fizzie> The 0x1234 load-address could be directly between .text and :.
17:02:23 <fizzie> (And that was adapted from the even messier "devkitPro"/libnds DS toolkittery.)
17:03:17 <cpressey> One day I should sit down and figure out how to write x86-64 code.
17:04:29 <fizzie> I haven't used any of this on x86; there if I've needed to write a raw binary, I've just used "nasm -f bin" instead of trying to (ab)use C + gcc.
17:04:38 <Ilari> Well, knowing x86 code would be helpful in that...
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17:06:03 <cpressey> Ugh, or not. Maybe I'll just stick with pure ol' 8086, and continue to consider 386 instructions "indulgent".
17:06:37 <Ilari> Heh... Reminds me of writing ASM with macros that must be valid x86 and x64 code.
17:06:40 <fizzie> The devkitPro/libnds variants waste some amount of complexity in trying to make even C++ code work; there's all kinds of global constructor/destructor tables and whatevers. Oh, and some RTTI support machinery too, I think.
17:06:56 <cpressey> For assembly code, I vastly prefer 6502 programming at this point anyway... it's more fun.
17:07:25 <Ilari> Of course had macros for wordsize registers.
17:07:51 <Ilari> Main limitation I ran was that one can't directly push 32-bit quantities to stack.
17:08:49 <Ilari> One had to 'SUB WSP, 4; MOV [WSP], EAX' (it got even worse with memory)...
17:09:08 <asiekierka> back
17:09:25 <asiekierka> and yes, cpressey, i love 6502 assembly
17:11:34 <asiekierka> i'm waiting for the 3DS
17:11:44 <asiekierka> this will be the best machine to homebrewhack. ever.
17:11:59 <asiekierka> because if you do you get a 3D platform that more than 10000 people ow
17:12:00 <asiekierka> own*
17:12:02 -!- base3_ has left (?).
17:12:05 <Ilari> Grumble that Linux/x64 doesn't seem to have working a.out...
17:12:39 <fizzie> Is there something wrong with ELF?
17:13:56 <Ilari> a.out is much simpler if one wants to make the headers. :-)
17:14:37 <fizzie> ELF with minimal fuss is not *that* complex, even if compilers do make very complicated-looking ELF files.
17:14:46 <fizzie> I won't bother linking to that tiny-elf thing again, but still.
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17:14:59 <Ilari> I don't know if it supports a.out at all, but the default map limit of 65536 is too high for a.out...
17:15:25 <zzo38> Ilari: Are you on IPv6?
17:16:18 <fizzie> It looks like 6to4, based on the 2002::/16 prefix and an IPv4-address-like following 4 bytes.
17:16:31 <Ilari> zzo38: Yes.
17:17:11 <Phantom_Hoover> How do you get on IPv6?
17:17:17 <zzo38> Is fizzie also on IPv6? How common is IPv6 now? I still don't have IPv6
17:17:50 <fizzie> Anyone with a public IPv4 address can use 6to4; there are various tunnel brokers (like sixxs.net); and some ISPs, like mine, do it natively.
17:18:57 <Ilari> Apparently Linux/x64 does support a.out for at least 32-bit, but programs instacrash because of map limits.
17:19:35 <fizzie> 6to4 assings a few (1208925819614629174706176) IPv6 addresses to each IPv4 address (2002:aabb:ccdd::/48 for IPv4 a.b.c.d).
17:19:53 <fizzie> That might not conform to canonical definitions of "few".
17:20:48 <zzo38> I don't have IPv6, but that is OK for now, most things don't require IPv6. Later on we can have more IPv6.
17:25:36 <Ilari> Heh... Reducing map limit to 4096 allows Linux/x86 QMAGIC a.outs to load on Linux/x64.
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17:31:29 <asiekierka> hm, i wonder if this zzo38 is the same zzo38 behind the MegaZeux fork adding Forth support to it
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17:36:30 <cpressey> Only Forth? Not a TADS interpreter too? :)
17:37:02 <zzo38> asiekierka: Yes it is the same zzo38
17:37:41 <zzo38> I don't need to add a TADS interpreter to MegaZeux!
17:38:30 <zzo38> Forth support is not the only thing I added to MegaZeux, I also fixed some bugs and did some other things as well, such as the floating status bar for the editor, and some additional keyboard commands in the editor, the old ALT+D function, and some more
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17:44:14 <zzo38> And, in fact, I am still working on fixing some additional things in MegaZeux
17:49:15 <zzo38> How interesting are you people in Forth programming?
17:50:33 <cpressey> I mentioned a few days ago that I'm a Forth hypocrite: I highly admire the language principles but I have done very little coding in Forth proper.
17:51:25 <cpressey> I did a lot of RPN coding at one point, but it was in a different language which was only Forth-inspired.
17:52:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
17:54:17 <zzo38> cpressey: OK. I have done a few things in Forth, and writing some Forth interpreters for various things, too, but when I make up the new computer (it will have new kind of hardware design as well as new software design), it will have Forth interpreter built-in, as well as a program to convert BASIC codes to Forth codes (so that game programs in old books will run), and many of the games on the DVD, I might write it myself, using Forth.
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17:56:57 <asiekierka> ... and you hoped i was gone forever
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17:58:38 <oklopol> hello people, why all the silene
17:58:42 <oklopol> -typo
18:00:34 <zzo38> Hello
18:02:02 <zzo38> What I would perhaps like to do some day, is to write a solitaire card program in Forth, that might accept a code like that http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/misc/more_misc/forsol.txt
18:02:41 <zzo38> What do you think?
18:04:07 <oklopol> i'm watching stuff, can't say anything coherent about anything
18:04:27 <oklopol> also i don't get it
18:04:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:04:51 <oklopol> what do solitaire card programs do
18:05:33 <zzo38> I mean, like PySol you can play solitaire card game, but with Forth codes instead
18:05:53 <oklopol> dunno pysol
18:06:41 <zzo38> The PySol you can write a ruleset plugin code such as: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/PySol/ruleset/
18:06:47 <zzo38> That is a example you can see
18:08:45 -!- cal153 has joined.
18:12:46 <zzo38> I have movie-time service in my computer, but it is broken now http://code.google.com/p/aenext-tickit-cinema-api/wiki/UserGuide it now has a new domain-name, but this new one doesn't work either
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18:13:21 <cpressey> zzo38: It would be cool if was more general than just solitaire, but that's asking a lot. What processor is your computer designed around, by the way?
18:14:31 <zzo38> cpressey: You mean the new computer hardware I mentioned? It is based on multiple processors, the main one is ARM-11
18:14:51 <zzo38> But there is also a DSP (it is some Texas Instruments DSP).
18:15:10 <cpressey> Nice.
18:15:23 <zzo38> I have written down most of the stuff now, but I have not actually built it yet because the people who help don't have time to get the parts, so some of the hardware design might change in the future.
18:17:16 <zzo38> And do you know about ARM instruction prefetching? Because I am having some problem with that. I would hook the high address bit to a flip-flop, which is then connected to the NMI, and all system calls go through the NMI (both called by software, and the ones called by hardware). But if there is prefetch would the NMI ever be called too early?
18:19:48 <zzo38> And do you know how to fix my movie-time service? It used to work. (The things suggesting in the documentation won't help) This is the codes I currently have: http://sprunge.us/MfCT
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18:29:02 <oklopol> my internet ran away but i caught it
18:29:55 <asiekierka> back
18:39:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, pikhq isn't here.
18:40:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone know where he keeps his Brainfuck compiler?
18:40:40 <asiekierka> why, a BF compiler is simpler than 2+2
18:40:47 <asiekierka> isn't it
18:40:51 <asiekierka> :P
18:40:54 <asiekierka> at least for 6502's
18:41:12 <oklopol> depends on what you're compiling to
18:41:23 <oklopol> to bf it's really easy
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18:43:28 <asiekierka> Phantom_Hoover: You were talking about pikhq 5 minutes ago
18:43:30 <asiekierka> werent you?
18:43:30 <asiekierka> :P
18:43:52 <pikhq> Imma beat him.
18:44:11 <oklopol> he said bad things about you
18:44:16 <asiekierka> for example
18:44:23 <asiekierka> well
18:44:25 <asiekierka> i wont say any
18:44:31 <asiekierka> possibly because oklopol is a liar
18:45:02 <oklopol> yes
18:45:07 <oklopol> i always lie
18:45:17 <asiekierka> <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, pikhq isn't here.
18:45:17 <asiekierka> <Phantom_Hoover> Anyone know where he keeps his Brainfuck compiler?
18:45:20 <asiekierka> OH MY
18:45:27 <asiekierka> HE'S EEEEVIL
18:48:30 <Phantom_Hoover> "Evil" is incapable of describing me.
18:50:01 <oklopol> oracles actually is on topic here
18:50:03 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: I can't get to it right now. Sorry.
18:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> NOOOO!
18:50:14 <pikhq> It's also not changed the past... Month?
18:50:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, perhaps that's too melodramatic
18:50:28 <oklopol> i interpreted that as "i don't have the time to tell you where it is right now"
18:51:08 <oklopol> so, time wasting or time well using?
18:51:24 <oklopol> i need to choose an activity
19:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Wasting!
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19:03:39 <asiekierka> oklopol
19:03:43 <asiekierka> as i am not sure which one is better
19:03:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, what's with assembly resources which insist upon mixing Intel and AT&T syntax?
19:03:47 <asiekierka> i prefer a compromise
19:03:49 <asiekierka> TIME WELL WASTING!
19:03:58 <asiekierka> i insist upon screwing both, Phantom
19:05:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Fine, but do it *consistently*.
19:12:34 <oklopol> i decided to spend my time well, you were too slow
19:12:48 <oklopol> well well and well. relatively well
19:14:20 <oerjan> a well of relativity
19:14:26 <oerjan> aka black hole
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20:43:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Are x86 32-bit protected mode segments just offsets?
20:45:00 <fizzie> They also have sizes and types and possibly other fluff.
20:45:45 <fizzie> Privilege fluff, at least.
20:50:37 <Ilari_antrcomp> 32-bit segment descriptors are 64 bits.
20:52:16 <Ilari_antrcomp> Contains at least limit, base address (32 bits), type, priviledges and some flags...
20:55:29 <Ilari_antrcomp> Read Intel architecture manuals (IIRC, its in first systems programming part) if you want to know more.
20:57:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, there? Can you link me to the last version of your closure in C stuff?
20:58:24 <AnMaster> nvm, found it locally in ~/irc/freenode/esoteric/pikhq
21:02:03 <Ilari_antrcomp> Heh... That 'astrology' part reminds me of that picture with text 'astrology is bull'... :-)
21:05:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, so address B in a segment with value A is at A+B?
21:06:16 <cpressey> Possibly (A*n)+B where n is ... a small power of two?
21:06:28 <AnMaster> Gregor, why is your hat collection limited? I'm unable to find any message about it on the page
21:06:36 <Ilari_antrcomp> AFAIK, If segment base is A and offset is B, it gets mapped to A+B for paging (if paging is used, if not, thats physical address).
21:07:20 <Ilari_antrcomp> Note that e.g. gates ignore the offset in request (and supply their own).
21:07:35 * Phantom_Hoover is new to this really low-level stuff
21:07:43 <fizzie> To clarify: it's not A that's in the segment selector registers. The registers just contain (basically) indices to GDT/LDT tables.
21:08:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:08:10 <cpressey> Three cheers for indirection!
21:08:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence "value of A".
21:08:54 <Ilari_antrcomp> The way it is really implemented is that each segment register has shadow registers containing the descriptor values. Write to segment register reloads those from LDT or GDT (or in case of real mode from fixed defaults).
21:08:55 <fizzie> That's pretty ambiguous still.
21:08:55 <oerjan> cpressey: i recall n was originally 16 in 8088
21:09:11 <oerjan> or thereabouts
21:10:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: There's actually a few different "last version"s out there. :P
21:10:13 <Ilari_antrcomp> oerjan: In real mode, loading segment register loads fixed values (that depend on value loaded) to segment descriptor. The base address is indeed 16 * selector (limit is 65535).
21:10:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, okay... which one should I use?
21:10:36 <oerjan> thus 16*65536 = 1 Mb max memory and that infamous 640 Kb limit once you removed some reserved stuff, or something like that
21:11:17 <pikhq> Mmm... Probably either the C one with the lambda lists or the one that's part of the SKI interpreter.
21:11:21 <Ilari_antrcomp> Fun trick: One can return from protected mode only reloading CS (you don't need to reload other registers). And if you don't reload them, the descriptors are still valid!
21:11:22 <cpressey> oerjan: Yes. The reserved stuff was video RAM IIRC.
21:11:27 <fizzie> oerjan: Also the funny thing that a000:0010 and a001:0000 point to the same location in memory, but can easily in a C implementation be two pointers that are !=.
21:11:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm
21:11:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, I need closures
21:11:40 <AnMaster> not just lambdas
21:11:50 <pikhq> ... They all close.
21:12:15 <fizzie> cpressey: It's not all video RAM; but a big part of it is.
21:12:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, wasn't sure
21:12:27 <pikhq> Well, rather, they all *allow* for closures.
21:12:38 <pikhq> You need to manually close.
21:12:44 <AnMaster> hm
21:12:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, didn't it use some GCC extension for it?
21:13:06 <pikhq> Yes, that was to have anonymous functions.
21:13:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, so how do you manually close?
21:13:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, brb, phone
21:13:58 <fizzie> The VGA graphics mode memory is at a0000..affff, monochrome modes live at b0000..b7fff, color text mode in b8000..b8fff, the VGA video BIOS at c0000..c7fff, and system BIOS ROM at f0000..fffff.
21:14:27 <pikhq> The macros for creating a closure take an closed-vars variable (as a void*). This gets passed to the closure when you call it using the call macro.
21:14:28 <fizzie> Then there's some unused bits and add-on card ROM/RAM/whatevers.
21:14:35 <pikhq> As the first argument.
21:15:06 <pikhq> So, what you need to do is stick what you want to close over into a data type on the heap.
21:15:15 <pikhq> I'd been using arrays.
21:15:46 <fizzie> I remember having something like DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE NOEMS I=B000-B7FF in some autoexec.bat or another; it's safe as long as you don't ever go into a monochrome video mode.
21:15:49 <cpressey> fizzie: OOC, in the GDT are the full base addresses stored? Or is there still a small n multiplier like 16 to get the read base address? If you said, I missed it.
21:16:11 <Ilari_antrcomp> cpressey: They are in segment descriptors.
21:16:24 <Ilari_antrcomp> cpressey: There's space for full 32 bits.
21:16:27 <fizzie> And the descriptor includes a full 32-bit address, yes.
21:16:38 <cpressey> Cool, thanks.
21:17:10 <fizzie> The limit has only 20 bits, but you can optionally multiply it with 4096.
21:17:19 <fizzie> ("limit" being the size of the segment.)
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21:18:02 <fizzie> The descriptor format is nicely messy: http://zem.fi/~fis/segdesc.png
21:18:21 <fizzie> Especially how the address and limit bits are "interlaced" like that.
21:18:29 <Ilari_antrcomp> Practically: Enter protected mode, create descriptor with base 0, limit FFFFF, data, writable, present, granularity, DPL 3, 32-bit. Load it into FS or GS and return to real mode. Now FS/GS can access entiere physical memory space.
21:18:47 <Ilari_antrcomp> That works as long nothing reloads FS or GS.
21:18:51 <cpressey> This is what the human race gets for trying to solve problems in hardware.
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21:19:23 <cpressey> Ilari_antrcomp: I don't suppose you have a lucidly-commented public-domain NASM version of that statement, do you? :)
21:19:32 -!- hiato_ has joined.
21:19:34 <Ilari_antrcomp> Nope.
21:19:42 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:20:17 <cpressey> Shucks. Well, much as I for some reason want to play with >386, I don't have the time to, anyway.
21:22:04 <Ilari_antrcomp> cpressey: It isn't hard anyway. That segment descriptor data can be hardcoded.
21:23:51 <Ilari_antrcomp> Code-wise, I think it is: Read CR0, flip PE bit and write CR0. Then load GDTR with fixed table, load GS, restore CR0 to way it was and do far jump to reload CS.
21:24:22 <Ilari_antrcomp> Of course, disabling interrupts while that is done might be good idea.
21:25:02 <fizzie> The particular trick is also called with a rather punny name, "unreal mode".
21:25:10 <Ilari_antrcomp> Yup.
21:25:13 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_mode
21:25:50 <fizzie> Based on a really quick glance, http://www.bryantmcgill.com/technology/pascal-delphi/Memory_Manage/Access_FLAT_memory_in_REAL_Mode_by_HERMAN_DULLINK.html has some code examples.
21:26:11 <fizzie> (It also has some syntax-highlighting applied to the text, which makes it really ugly.)
21:26:44 <cpressey> Oh nice, thank you.
21:27:05 <cpressey> Killing the CSS makes it readable.
21:27:20 <Ilari_antrcomp> The problems with >64KiB code stay, but at least one can access extended memory easily.
21:28:52 <fizzie> Uh, except that the actual related code seems to be encoded with something really weird; I at least don't have a "xx3402" decoder handy.
21:29:04 <fizzie> Well, I'm sure someone's done a better example somewhere.
21:30:20 <Ilari_antrcomp> If one does a .com program, that trick can sure be done in <256 bytes, leaving 65kB for other code...
21:31:23 <Ilari_antrcomp> And even 400KiB is a lot when one doesn't have to use it for data, only code.
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21:32:49 <cpressey> Interesting that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_mode is categorized under "Programming language implementation"
21:35:05 <cpressey> 65K would be plenty for an interpreter or VM tightly coded in assembly...
21:35:40 <Ilari_antrcomp> Nasty hack to get rid of code limits: Code swapping... :-)
21:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> God, CPUs are more complex than I thought.
21:36:05 -!- Oranjer has joined.
21:36:10 <cpressey> Ilari_antrcomp: Overlays! :)
21:36:17 <fizzie> I seem to recall that Nethack's real-mode version used some overlays.
21:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, I've seen it claimed in a couple of places that the XOR swap algorithm doesn't work when the swapees are equal.
21:36:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Even though this is obviously wrong.
21:38:06 <fizzie> That probably depends whether by "equal" you mean "equal values" or "equal addresses".
21:38:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Speaking of processors, remember that thing about RAM not being zero'ed on startup, we talked about yesterday? Well, a similar thing applies to CPU's. If you turn on power to a chip like a Z80 "too quickly", it starts up in a random, confused state...
21:38:42 <cpressey> Just something that's interesting -- nothing you have to worry about for a bootloader.
21:38:53 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, ah.
21:39:07 <Ilari_antrcomp> Heh... Reminds me of tales about strange problems caused by using uninitialized RAM (in embedded system).
21:39:50 <Ilari_antrcomp> Turns out temperature affects what values RAM gets when power is turned on.
21:40:40 <fizzie> Temperature also affects how long DRAM chips store the values they had before power-cutoff.
21:40:43 <fizzie> "Interestingly, if you cool the DRAM chips, for example by spraying inverted cans of "canned air" dusting spray on them, the chips will retain their contents for much longer. At these temperatures (around -50 °C) you can remove the chips from the computer and let them sit on the table for ten minutes or more, without appreciable loss of data."
21:41:14 <cpressey> Makes sense, thermodynamically, I suppose.
21:41:18 <cpressey> Three cheers for entropy!
21:41:24 <fizzie> Physics, the bane of all computer scientists.
21:41:36 <fizzie> They really should get rid of it.
21:43:25 <fizzie> It's not even remotely recent at this point in time, but http://citp.princeton.edu/memory/ was still a nice read.
21:46:51 <AnMaster> ais523, there?
21:46:55 <ais523> yes
21:47:04 <ais523> busy trying to optimize a Java program to reduce its memory usage
21:47:31 <AnMaster> ais523, you mentioned you played nwn recently, I managed to get legally hold of a copy, someone I know in RL didn't play it any longer. :)
21:47:42 <AnMaster> (no idea why, seems a quite nice game)
21:47:43 <ais523> ah
21:47:48 <ais523> a couple of years ago, you could still buy it in the shops
21:47:53 <AnMaster> ais523, however it is bloody hard to be a true neutral fighter
21:47:54 <ais523> the price had dropped really low
21:47:57 <AnMaster> which was the first thing I tried
21:48:07 <AnMaster> I seem to either go towards evil or good all the time :/
21:48:07 <ais523> have you recruited a henchman?
21:48:18 <ais523> oh, yep, hard to maintain neutrality
21:48:24 <fizzie> Alignment tends to work pretty badly in every game in existence.
21:48:35 <ais523> luckily in NWN it's mostly irrelevant
21:48:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think it is based on DnD 3 here
21:48:47 <AnMaster> ais523, well not for paladins and such iirc?
21:48:48 <ais523> unless it screws up your levelling options
21:48:50 <fizzie> To be neutral, you'll have to keep doing obviously kill-the-kittens evil acts as well as goody-two-shoes acts in approximately equal amounts.
21:49:00 <AnMaster> ais523, also, how many times can you level up?
21:49:18 <ais523> the original campaign caps at level 20, so 19
21:49:26 <ais523> one of the expansions has a much higher cap
21:50:10 <fizzie> According to a recent let's-play I read (I think it was NWN2, though), it's also not so easy to be lawful-evil, since the evil stuff seems to mostly be completely psychotic murdering.
21:50:17 <AnMaster> ais523, I find the whole thing very limited. In many other games I tend to play rather something of a generalist than a specialist.
21:50:28 <AnMaster> ais523, and the multiclassing options doesn't seem very good
21:50:37 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not so bad at higher levels, or playing something less boring than fighter
21:50:43 <AnMaster> ais523, far too limiting wrt armour (for wiz/fighter)
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21:51:02 <ais523> AnMaster: my current NWN playthrough uses a medium-armour bard
21:51:11 <AnMaster> ais523, sounds.... spoony?
21:51:17 <fizzie> I have a feeling I have two NWN1-original copies; got one for free with a display card, and then (much) later it was a lot cheaper to buy some sort of "diamond collection" of the base game + expansions than try to find the expansions separately.
21:51:26 <AnMaster> ais523, or aren't they useless there?
21:51:29 <ais523> basically, cast loads of buffs after resting
21:51:36 <ais523> then become a fighter who signs
21:51:38 <ais523> *sings
21:51:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I tend to prefer fighter + some small amount of magic
21:51:55 <AnMaster> ais523, but the 20 levels caps make it very hard
21:52:00 <AnMaster> to get anything usable out of that
21:52:11 <ais523> AnMaster: wow, you seem something like a munchkin
21:52:14 <ais523> level 20 is easily overpowered
21:52:24 <ais523> example: pick up 1 level of sor, maybe 5 of fighter, and use scrolls to casr
21:52:25 <ais523> *cast
21:52:26 <AnMaster> ais523, ah, I guess I'm used to other games where it isn't then
21:52:36 <fizzie> Heh, the six-second available-almost-anywhere resting of NWN2 (I seem to recall NWN1 was very similar) made spellcasting pretty kill-o-tronic.
21:52:45 <AnMaster> ais523, considering nethack for example
21:52:52 <ais523> AnMaster: this is D&D
21:52:55 <fizzie> Also silly-looking, since the guy just sort of stands there for a moment.
21:53:02 <ais523> you're expected to complete the game around lv. 16 to 18
21:53:08 <AnMaster> ais523, well yes. I was just considering what splitting the max level in half for nethack would do
21:53:12 <ais523> although it has been completed a lot later
21:53:16 <AnMaster> which is effectively what you do with multiclass no?
21:53:17 <ais523> and NetHack is perfectly completable at lv. 14
21:53:46 <AnMaster> ais523, not for a wizard
21:53:59 <ais523> AnMaster: even for a wizard, although they like levelling up high more than other classes
21:54:09 <ais523> for most classes, going beyond lv. 14 isn't even recommended
21:54:15 <AnMaster> ais523, what about tou? I can't imagine that at lv. 14!
21:54:22 <ais523> because the benefits aren't large enough to outweight the higher generation of more powerful enemies
21:54:28 <AnMaster> heck I wouldn't consider tou something I could pull of at all
21:54:38 <ais523> AnMaster: what are the extra levels going to do for tou?
21:54:46 <ais523> all tou cares about it equipment, pretty much
21:54:50 <AnMaster> hm true
21:54:57 <ais523> and that's independent of level
21:55:02 <AnMaster> ais523, okay arc then?
21:55:03 <cpressey> I hope "munchkin" has some technical meaning I'm missing, here.
21:55:12 <AnMaster> cpressey, yes? what else would it have?
21:55:43 <ais523> cpressey: someone who tries to create a character much more powerful than is necessary
21:55:47 <ais523> in a roleplaying game
21:56:18 <AnMaster> ais523, well, since I won't do multiplayer anyway it is hardly an issue really
21:56:25 <fizzie> Every time someone says "munchkin", my mind immediately replies "you must face the gazebo alone".
21:56:42 <ais523> AnMaster: yep, in a computer game it makes sense
21:56:47 <AnMaster> ais523, besides it can be a nice strategy first time you play a game, before you learnt it..
21:57:30 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway if you divide the 20 levels into two halfs, 10 fighter, 10 something-that-can-cast-spells, both would be rather limited, no?
21:57:55 <ais523> AnMaster: not in terms of fighting potential
21:58:02 <ais523> in terms of casting, yes to some extent, but that's what you have items for
21:58:10 <AnMaster> hm
21:58:20 <ais523> 10 levels of a pure caster will make you decent at level 5 spells, you can use scrolls for the really powerful effects
21:58:29 <ais523> but level 5 is easily enough to cast a whole bunch of decent buffs
21:58:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also, from some quick reading the magic system seems.... complex?
21:58:43 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the D&D magic system
21:58:47 <AnMaster> ais523, buffs?
21:58:56 <AnMaster> strange term?
21:59:05 <ais523> AnMaster: spells designed to be targeted at yourself or an ally
21:59:12 <ais523> normally that give immunities or boost stats
21:59:47 <cpressey> The term I remember for that, from my D&D days, at least for the character, was "sick pig".
21:59:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what if you want to deal with some 30 zombies at once. Which I had the nasty surprise of meeting around one corner in that beggers-whatever area of the town
21:59:52 <cpressey> May have been a local term.
22:00:07 <ais523> AnMaster: they're zombies?
22:00:14 <ais523> you kill them all at range before they reach you
22:00:16 <ais523> or kill them one at a time
22:00:20 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but how
22:00:25 <ais523> bows and arrows?
22:00:28 <ais523> as I said, they're zombies
22:00:32 <ais523> they'll go down in a couple of hits
22:00:35 <AnMaster> ais523, picking them off one by one?
22:00:35 <ais523> and take ages to reach you
22:00:40 <AnMaster> seems... inefficient
22:00:42 <ais523> and you can always run away to maintain range
22:00:50 <ais523> alternatively, get a cleric henchman to turn them
22:01:01 <ais523> it's not inefficient really
22:01:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what level would a decent cone type of spell be?
22:01:30 <ais523> there's a couple of usable cone-type spells at level 1
22:01:35 <AnMaster> ah
22:01:49 <ais523> the main advantage of higher spell levels for actual attacking is higher damage caps
22:01:49 <AnMaster> ais523, btw can you have more than one henchman? and then what is the limit?
22:01:56 <ais523> just the one henchman at a time
22:01:58 <AnMaster> ah
22:02:02 <ais523> it'd be a control nightmare otherwise
22:02:10 <ais523> but you can also have a familiar or animal companion, and a summoned creature
22:02:11 <AnMaster> ais523, um, they seem to run on a crude AI?
22:02:24 <ais523> AnMaster: yup, the AI isn't ideal, but you can help it out to some extent
22:02:57 <fizzie> You can also write some own AI scripts if you really feel like it.
22:02:59 <AnMaster> ais523, it seems to work pretty well. except somewhat stupidly at understanding when it should disarm or pick stuff (I took that rouge near the start as the henchman)
22:03:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, wouldn't that be cheating?
22:03:31 <ais523> modding the game is half the fun, although it would be, yes
22:03:39 <ais523> it's fun to play both modified and unmodified
22:03:42 <AnMaster> mhm
22:03:58 <AnMaster> ais523, where does one do that btw?
22:04:14 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a toolset, although there isn't a Linux version of it
22:04:22 <ais523> recently it runs moderately well in WINE, though
22:04:35 <ais523> as in, there's loads of bugs you have to work around with the toolset under WINE, but it's not so bad it's unusable
22:04:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what file name? or is the binary not included in the linux bit of the thing?
22:05:22 <ais523> the filename's NWTOOLSET.EXE IIRC
22:05:31 <ais523> but it's on the Windows disk, not the Linux download
22:05:31 <fizzie> It's bundled on the disc, but since there's no Linux version, I doubt they include it in the Linux resources package.
22:05:33 <ais523> due to being a Windows program
22:05:34 <AnMaster> ah
22:05:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, that explains it
22:06:05 <oklopol> fizzie: was that in the card game? i seem to recall a gazebo in it
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22:06:35 <AnMaster> ais523, those expansions you mentioned, any good?
22:06:44 <fizzie> oklopol: Yes, "you must face the gazebo alone" is on the card text.
22:06:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, what game?
22:07:03 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know, I haven't installed them
22:07:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: Munchkin.
22:07:09 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a game called Munchkin
22:07:13 <AnMaster> oh that
22:07:14 <AnMaster> right
22:07:18 <fizzie> oklopol: At least we've interpreted it to mean that you are not allowed to have any other player help you during that battle, but I'm not sure if that's an actual rule.
22:07:27 <ais523> fizzie: I think it is an actual rule
22:07:31 <ais523> because that's how our group interprets it too
22:07:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, gazebo? As an enemy?
22:07:50 <AnMaster> oh and you bought it?
22:07:52 <AnMaster> XD
22:08:00 <fizzie> http://images.boardgamegeek.com/images/pic408155_md.jpg has a picture of it. (It's actually a Lightning Fast, Enraged, Gazebo.)
22:08:17 <ais523> AnMaster: if you don't know the Gazebo Story, look it up
22:08:36 <ais523> it seems to be one of those urban legends that has spread to most of the gaming groups in the world via word of mouth, as I've heard it from several different sources
22:08:41 <AnMaster> ais523, link?
22:08:50 <ais523> I don't have one
22:08:52 <AnMaster> ais523, if you don't do links I won't do google ;P
22:08:58 <fizzie> http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/98/Jul/gazebo.html
22:09:00 <AnMaster> to balance things out
22:09:01 <fizzie> For example.
22:09:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, thanks
22:09:04 <fizzie> It's in very many places.
22:09:08 <ais523> I guessed it would be
22:10:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, haha
22:10:32 <fizzie> Wikipedia's link (from the "Eric and the Gazebo" article) would have been to dreadgazebo.com, which would have been more appropriate.
22:10:43 <ais523> fizzie: there's even a Wikipedia page about it?
22:11:05 <fizzie> "The Tale of Eric and the Dread Gazebo is a role-playing game (RPG) anecdote, made famous by Richard Aronson --"
22:11:07 <fizzie> Sure.
22:11:22 <fizzie> There's even a picture of a gazebo on the page.
22:11:28 <fizzie> Encyclopedic!
22:11:41 <AnMaster> XD
22:11:53 <fizzie> And what appears to be a plot summary.
22:12:03 <AnMaster> k8temp-pci-00c3
22:12:03 <AnMaster> Adapter: PCI adapter
22:12:03 <AnMaster> Core0 Temp: +77.0°C
22:12:05 <AnMaster> temp1: +36.0°C (high = +50.0°C, hyst = +45.0°C) sensor = thermistor
22:12:12 <AnMaster> they are from different sensors
22:12:15 <AnMaster> both are supposed to be CPU
22:12:19 <AnMaster> this makes no sense
22:12:27 <AnMaster> plus the former depends on cpu freq
22:12:32 <fizzie> lm-sensors gets confused quite often.
22:12:33 <oklopol> that was pretty funny
22:13:16 <fizzie> Motherboard manufacturers who use the same sensor-chipsets opt to stick in different sorts of resistors. The sensors.conf examples typically have lots of commented-out "on this and this you maybe have to divide the values by 7.6".
22:13:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I'm just worried about the 77 C one being correct. Since it is the CPU-internal one
22:13:31 <AnMaster> but it does jump with CPU freq
22:13:50 <AnMaster> something like "substract 20, double, add add 40" or such it sems
22:13:56 <AnMaster> err 45*
22:13:57 <AnMaster> not 40
22:14:07 <fizzie> +36 sounds a more likely temperature, though you'd usually assume k8temp to be reliable.
22:14:42 <fizzie> I get +36.0 and +38.0 from k8temp-pci-00c3 for the two cores here.
22:14:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes but the k8temp varies with cpu frequency in a way that seems implausible. As in directly after a speed switch it jumps sharply
22:14:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, this is single core
22:15:03 <AnMaster> sempron 3300+
22:15:22 <AnMaster> didn't some early k8 have issues with the k8temp, sounds familiar...
22:15:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, I get a value near that of the mobo when at lowest cpu speed
22:16:30 <fizzie> Hmn. Well, mine went from 36/38 to 43/45 when I ran a "while true; do true; done" loop in one shell for three seconds, which made it jump from 1000 MHz to 2800 MHz. That sounds physically possible; but going from 36 to 77 in just a few seconds doesn't.
22:16:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, and sensors.conf doesn't have my stuff But I checked that the values match those reported in BIOS pretty well after a reboot
22:18:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, also less than a second. Checked with sensors && cpufreq-set [...] && sensors
22:18:38 <AnMaster> anyway 77 needs load. On idle the difference is around 28 C -> 67 C
22:18:38 <fizzie> Well, then it does sound like k8temp is having some cpufreq-related issues.
22:19:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I guess I should not be worried about nwn making computer fry XD
22:20:06 <fizzie> AnMaster: On the other hand, the "temp3" sensor in the it8718-isa-0228 motherboard sensors package is listed as +81.0 degrees Celsius in idle. I have no clue where the sensor is supposed to be, or whether it even exists.
22:20:52 <AnMaster> heh
22:21:09 <AnMaster> Core0 Temp: +27.0°C
22:21:09 <AnMaster> temp1: +34.0°C (high = +50.0°C, hyst = +45.0°C) sensor = thermistor
22:21:09 <AnMaster> temp2: +34.5°C (high = +50.0°C, hyst = +45.0°C) sensor = thermistor
22:21:09 <AnMaster> temp3: +34.5°C (high = +50.0°C, hyst = +45.0°C) sensor = thermistor
22:21:11 <fizzie> (And the voltage levels seem pretty arbitrary; they're all in the +1 .. +4 range, and have limits of [+0.00, +4.08].
22:21:18 <AnMaster> note temp2 is not always same as temp3
22:21:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and my voltages doesn't match at all
22:21:49 <fizzie> http://pastebin.com/iuiS8AAb
22:22:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/NShj
22:22:45 <fizzie> That's even more messy.
22:23:40 <AnMaster> yeah
22:23:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, I commented out fan1 and fan3
22:24:14 <AnMaster> since they are not attached and aren't even on the mobo
22:24:25 <AnMaster> they were showing 0 RPM
22:24:36 <Ilari> This could be fun: Given a hash function and hash value, determine wheither there is preimage for that hash value... And more general version of it: given a hash function, do all its outputs have preimages? :-)
22:24:52 <Ilari> Of course, good hashes should have preimages for all outputs, but...
22:25:19 <fizzie> For the IT8718, it seems that there's no generic "used by most manufacturers" configuration for it; the chip voltage-measuring inputs accept voltages in the range [0V, 4.096V] which gives those limits, but every manufacturer designs the actual circuitry differently.
22:25:33 <AnMaster> Ilari, I suggest proving it "mathematically" rather than by brute force ;P
22:25:48 <Ilari> Yup. That's pretty much the only way to do it...
22:25:50 <fizzie> "The best thing to do is send Gigabyte's technical support an e-mail and ask. That's what I did and they told me what I needed to know. Of course, I sent it from work with my work signature attached (which includes the lines Digital Systems, Design Assurance Engineer - Reliability & Safety) so that may have helped. ;)"
22:25:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, at least my thinkpad has sane sensors
22:26:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, the no attached ones report not readable
22:26:15 <fizzie> Laptops tend to handle monitoring better, anyway.
22:26:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, well there is one strange, that is always at 50 and is only readable with main battery mounted
22:26:41 <AnMaster> (and then there is one varying one that is only readable with battery in
22:26:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, however I have no idea what the different temp probes are
22:27:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, http://sprunge.us/hgIY (after waking up computer from sleep for quite a while)
22:28:03 <AnMaster> (it should be pretty much ambient temp there)
22:28:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, err s/sleep/s2ram/
22:28:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, the fan value definitely works btw
22:29:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and yeah I marked the ones not readable as ignore on the laptop
22:30:06 <AnMaster> presumably at least one of them would be for optional ultrabay battery
22:30:36 <fizzie> I guess there's not so many ways to hook fans into those monitoring chips. Unlike voltages, which you can scale to the chip input ranges in practically any which way.
22:34:30 <AnMaster> fizzie, well for thinkpad it is quite reasonable to assume it is standard
22:34:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, but looking at my desktop it has a div value for the fan
22:35:30 <fizzie> Can't seem to find any existing settings for this particular motherboard model, but maybe some other by the same manufacturer could work.
22:35:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, unlikely
22:36:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, anyway for servers there is a better system too
22:36:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, which is IPMI iirc (or was it IMPI?)
22:36:37 <AnMaster> presents sensors too in a nice way iirc
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22:37:36 <fizzie> Yes; I'm a bit surprised they haven't included monitoring stuff into ACPI nonsense, though.
22:38:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, look at the output of my thinkpad again?
22:38:38 <AnMaster> acpitz-virtual-0 eh?
22:39:11 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:39:33 <ehirdiphone> Tautological? Or SEXY?
22:39:40 <ehirdiphone> Hi ais523.
22:39:45 <fizzie> Oh, I missed that. Still, temperatures only. (But perhaps they have others too.)
22:39:50 <ais523> hi ehirdiphone
22:40:41 <AnMaster> ais523, btw they should make an NWN variant based on a different table top RPG
22:40:41 <ehirdiphone> Anyone have a wormhole?
22:40:59 <AnMaster> ais523, to be more specific: Neverwinter Nights: Spawn of Fashan
22:41:01 <ais523> ehirdiphone: not sure about the general case, but i don't
22:41:03 <ehirdiphone> I need to gtfo.
22:41:10 <ais523> AnMaster: why?
22:41:14 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Make one!
22:41:21 <AnMaster> ais523, because it would be quite entertaining!
22:41:24 <ais523> D&D is more popular, after all, and they'd have to rewrite most of the code to fit it to a different game
22:41:34 <ais523> what you mean is, "they should make a computer RPG based on Spawn of Fashan"
22:41:35 <AnMaster> ais523, you don't know what Spawn of Fashan is?
22:41:38 <ais523> and no
22:41:52 <AnMaster> ais523, worst RPG ever according to common opinion
22:41:53 <ais523> but the point is, NWN is meant to emulate D&D, if you take that away it's no longer NWN
22:42:12 <AnMaster> ais523, linking you to a review would be... pointless since you filter links
22:42:15 <AnMaster> so just google
22:42:15 <ais523> AnMaster: there's an RPG (not that one, but I can't remember the name) in which it's theoretically impossible to survive character creation, due to a bug in the rules
22:42:39 <AnMaster> ais523, SoF is like that all the way iirc
22:42:48 <ehirdiphone> What's that abominable "edgy" rpg made by someone with an iq of 4, broken gameplay, and crappy gratuitous sexual and gory writing? I forget. Read a mock review of it.
22:42:56 <ehirdiphone> Do one of that.
22:43:44 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, no it wasn't that one
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22:43:47 <ehirdiphone> I think the name is a backrinymmed or uppercase word
22:43:59 <ehirdiphone> Yeah, but what is that one?
22:44:01 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, you mean F.A.T.A.L.?
22:44:08 <ehirdiphone> Yes.
22:44:49 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, review of SoF: http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6157.html
22:45:17 <ehirdiphone> On GPRS. Heavy page?
22:46:13 <ais523> ehirdiphone: do you have any way to send an HTTP HEAD request to it?
22:46:15 <ais523> and do you block images?
22:46:18 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, text
22:46:23 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, and some CSS I guess
22:46:30 <ais523> both would seem sensible on a bandwidth-limited connection
22:46:36 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, oh and possibly a tiny gif button
22:46:36 <ehirdiphone> ais523: No; no.
22:46:48 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Its not THAT slow.
22:46:50 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, quite a long text though
22:47:06 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, might be better enjoyed on computer
22:47:10 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Big javadvripty imager paged are the problem
22:47:27 <ehirdiphone> PathologicAl worst case: ign.com
22:47:27 -!- coppro has joined.
22:47:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
22:47:41 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: I haven't that luxury.
22:47:43 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well it is pure text apart from one small button image. And some CSS I guess.
22:47:48 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, well later then perhaps?
22:47:52 <ais523> ehirdiphone: are you using a full browser like Safari, or an Opera Mini-style one?
22:48:07 <ehirdiphone> If the unit were aware of this one I would not even HAVE this luxury
22:48:14 <ehirdiphone> *have THIS
22:48:26 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, not going home yet?
22:48:30 <ehirdiphone> ais523: WebKit browser inside irc client. Old iPhone os so no
22:48:34 <ehirdiphone> Multitasking
22:48:38 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, also: move abroad
22:48:45 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Thursday night.
22:49:03 <ais523> ehirdiphone: using an iPhone seems to really screw up your typing
22:49:08 <ehirdiphone> Also, you try and move based on weekends in another country.
22:49:19 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, hm. Sue them?
22:49:23 <ehirdiphone> ais523: I REQUIRE SPEED.
22:49:25 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, tried legal stuff yet?
22:49:36 <ehirdiphone> AnMaster: Sue the government. Great idea.
22:49:44 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, yes why not?
22:49:51 <AnMaster> ehirdiphone, it has been done before.
22:49:53 <ais523> AnMaster: I know that if I was in a similar situation, I wouldn't be taking advice from either you or ehirdiphone
22:49:58 <ehirdiphone> I'm sure the government will decide against the government.
22:50:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: These same-manufacturer same-monitoring-chipset other-MB-model sensors.conf settings did in fact seem mostly reasonable; they had ignore temp3 with the same "very high temperatures seen" comment and all: http://pastebin.com/Qw5S3EhR -- possibly not quite exact, but at least closer.
22:50:09 <AnMaster> ais523, true. I would contact a lawyer
22:50:09 <ais523> ehirdiphone: sometimes it does (see the BBC), but there's no guarantee
22:50:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, mhm
22:50:40 <ehirdiphone> Especially as my *crazy* father somehow lied enough to social services to get them involved.
22:51:01 <ehirdiphone> (my dad is a sociopath basically in bed with the unit.)
22:51:55 <ehirdiphone> *Apparently* they want to discharge me to school at end of August.
22:52:12 <ehirdiphone> Because education outside of school is ILLEGAL!
22:52:28 <ehirdiphone> Which is why we have explicit legal provisions for it.
22:52:31 <ais523> ehirdiphone: incompetent education outside school /is/ illegal
22:52:37 <ais523> would you call your current education competent?
22:52:51 <ehirdiphone> ais523: At the unit?
22:52:54 <ais523> yup
22:53:01 <ehirdiphone> Hell no! but that's "school"
22:53:05 <ais523> although it was mostly a rhetorical question
22:54:00 <ehirdiphone> Out of the unit? My education is... me. So yes, competent. The great philosopher Oklopol Omnivorol once said "All learning is autodidactism."
22:54:54 <ehirdiphone> hmm, oklopol's name should never be capitalised.
22:55:07 <ais523> I still think you should figure out a way to take GCSEs and/or A-levels early
22:55:12 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Your hardware situation always seems to mirror your personal situation... restraintive.
22:55:14 <ais523> it'd confuse the hell out of the people at the unit
22:55:52 <ehirdiphone> ais523: One teacher offered early GCSEs, but I declined. I don't want to do any such thing in this place.
22:55:59 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: Deep, man.
22:56:10 <ais523> ehirdiphone: because you don't think they're competent enough to take you through them?
22:56:47 <ehirdiphone> ais523: And because I don't trust my mental state in the slightest. And basically I have enough on my plate.
22:57:08 <ais523> I would have thought you'd have basically nothing on your plate at the unit...
22:57:48 <ehirdiphone> I have to *purposefully block out my mind* to avoid repeated exposure to the idea "I am crazy" becoming a belief
22:58:19 <ehirdiphone> ais523: they try to fill my time with pointless "therapeutic" bullshit. And just being here is straining.
22:58:58 <ehirdiphone> Well this is cheerful \o/
22:58:58 <myndzi\> |
22:58:58 <myndzi\> /<
22:59:52 <ehirdiphone> apparently I'm not allowed to have an Internet connection for "health and safety" and also "because others might get jealous"
23:00:04 <ehirdiphone> discuss these lies amongst yourself.
23:00:36 <ehirdiphone> Actually "health and safety" is a lie in three words.
23:00:43 <ais523> the second reason is potentially valid
23:00:48 <ais523> the first doesn't seem to make sense, though
23:00:58 <ais523> unless they're worried you're looking up ways to escape the unit
23:01:01 <ehirdiphone> Yes, because I can't keep a secret.
23:01:04 <ais523> which I suppose you are
23:01:11 <ehirdiphone> Only two others sleep.
23:01:16 <ais523> but maybe not the way they think
23:01:38 <ehirdiphone> One is a severely OCD 12 year old. The other doesn't speak or move or... Breathe?
23:01:58 <ehirdiphone> So not a hard secret to keep.
23:02:15 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Or THE EASY GUIDE TO SECRET SELF HARM
23:02:31 -!- hiato_ has quit (Quit: underflow).
23:02:37 <ais523> they put people into units for OCD, nowadays?
23:02:48 <ais523> that doesn't strike me as the sort of disorder that implies being locked up...
23:03:01 <cpressey> The UK is becoming admirably efficient at crushing anything and everything that deviates from The Way[tm].
23:03:13 <ehirdiphone> Well, this guy can't even sit down in more than a few places, regularly babbles to his arm,
23:03:25 <ehirdiphone> is autistic and sees jokes as lies,
23:03:42 <ehirdiphone> and convulses whenever he hears a """loud""" noise
23:04:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Hey, they locked me up for supposed OCD...
23:04:22 <ehirdiphone> And Asperger's.
23:04:29 <ais523> jokes are lies, we just learn to tolerate them
23:04:47 <ais523> and lies can be amusing, whether they're intentionally jokes or not
23:05:01 <ehirdiphone> But if you tell the most obvious joke and admit so he'll still get upset.
23:05:52 <ehirdiphone> I kinda dislike him because he just stays upstairs in his room or on the Wii whenever he's not in class and basically dictates the TV. Which is, you know, a bit shitty.
23:06:35 <ehirdiphone> Small comforts ruined. Ever turned a television down so low you can barely hear anything?
23:06:43 <ais523> ehirdiphone: yes
23:06:44 <ehirdiphone> I'm sure getting used to it now.
23:06:58 <ehirdiphone> ais523: then watched an interesting programme?
23:07:03 <ais523> sometimes, lower than that and just used the subtitles
23:07:16 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I'm not convinced there are interesting programmes nowadays
23:07:18 <ais523> at least, not very often
23:07:43 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Fair enough. Same applies to the consoles though. It's just irritating.
23:07:58 <ehirdiphone> ais523: BBC Four still has good stuff.
23:08:12 <ehirdiphone> And Attenborough is of course always worth watching.
23:08:25 <ais523> ehirdiphone: normally, when I think of all the things I could do with my time, watching TV tends to be rather far down the list
23:08:31 <ais523> sleeping is quite a way above it, for instance
23:08:54 <ehirdiphone> And the majority of things above it I cannot do.
23:09:08 <ehirdiphone> Not here.
23:10:17 <ehirdiphone> I'm astonished how they manage to continually make this place worse.
23:10:22 <ehirdiphone> Takes skill.
23:11:03 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__: Did the melatonin work?
23:11:20 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Any new interesting things?
23:11:49 <ais523> ehirdiphone: not massively: there's a research problem I'm working on for work, and the rest of my time I'm spending programming (jettyplay today) and playing NWN
23:11:53 <ais523> and talking to people online
23:12:06 <ehirdiphone> Research problem, eh?
23:12:14 <ehirdiphone> — jettyplay?
23:12:23 <ais523> ehirdiphone: ttyrec player, written in Java
23:12:35 <ehirdiphone> Right. Why, remind me?
23:12:38 <ais523> partly because I need to learn Java better, partly because it's the optimal language for my intended use
23:12:50 <ehirdiphone> Why a player?
23:12:54 <ais523> which is a ttyrec player for the masses, that they can use if they need to watch ttyrecs
23:13:03 <ehirdiphone> Okay.
23:13:07 <ais523> the sort of people who want to make them normally are more technical and can just use ttyrec itself
23:13:23 <ais523> although, games like NetHack should really have an inbuilt ttyrec recorder, rather than relying on a separate one, IMO
23:14:52 * cpressey thought that was what YouTube was for...
23:15:05 <ais523> I've managed to get its memory usage down to just over 3 times the size of the uncompressed input ttyrec, which is probably reasonable; it was a lot higher
23:15:12 <ais523> cpressey: YouTube? for /text/?
23:15:27 <ais523> the quality's awful, and you can't do things like search in it
23:15:33 * cpressey was being facetious
23:15:35 <ais523> ttyrec > all video formats, for animated text
23:15:47 <cpressey> People post all kind of "video" to that cesspool
23:17:30 <cpressey> Ack, I should probably be going.
23:17:50 <Sgeo__> ehirdiphone, I didn't try it
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23:17:56 <Sgeo__> My dad told me to wait until he gets home
23:18:03 <Sgeo__> In case I have some sort of reaction to it
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23:19:19 <Sgeo__> ehirdiphone, they're obviously worried that you'll be exposed to swearing on the Internet or something
23:19:50 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:19:50 <ehirdiphone> An allergy? To MELATONIN?
23:19:59 <ehirdiphone> Why do you listen to your father?
23:20:20 <ais523> surely, if you were allergic to melatonin, you should stay in a darkened room for the rest of your life
23:20:22 <Sgeo__> He didn't say "allergy"
23:20:42 <ehirdiphone> ais523: And NEVER GET SLEEPY EVER
23:20:50 <ehirdiphone> You might have a reaction.
23:21:07 <ais523> still, there are people who have managed to stay alive despite a water allerghy
23:21:10 <ais523> *allergy
23:21:17 <Sgeo__> ...water allergy?
23:21:20 <ais523> so it probably wouldn't be impossible, just completely ruin your life
23:21:22 <ais523> Sgeo__: yes
23:21:30 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__ehirdiphone, they're obviously worried that you'll be exposed to swearing on the Internet or something
23:21:40 <ehirdiphone> No they just hate everything they can't control.
23:22:13 <ehirdiphone> I've half a mind to hit them over the head with something heavy then swim to France.
23:23:19 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Dihydrogen monoxide is terribly dangerous!
23:23:47 <ais523> ehirdiphone: yes, but the uses outweigh the dangers
23:23:57 <Sgeo__> You're not the sort of person to ask for advice in places that would likely to tell you to become an hero
23:24:09 <ais523> there's a huge list of things that are poisonous at sufficient doses, including water and oxygen
23:24:32 <coppro> just about everything
23:24:36 <ehirdiphone> But I already am an hero. An hero of FLIGHT
23:24:45 <ehirdiphone> *takes off*
23:25:11 <ais523> coppro: when I was younger, I was fed mostly on a liquid designed by scientists to contain all the nutrients the body needed, in the ratio it needed them
23:25:20 <ais523> because I had a load of food intolerances, and they weren't sure what for
23:25:22 <ais523> *what to
23:25:32 <ais523> so they needed a baseline food to keep me alive while they tested things
23:25:37 <coppro> sure
23:25:49 <ais523> I think one of its interesting properties was that it was impossible to overdose on it
23:25:55 <coppro> O_o
23:26:09 <ais523> (water overdoses kill you by messing up your osmotic balance, for instance)
23:26:22 <ais523> (you can counteract them with pretty much anything that dissolves in water, like salt or sugar)
23:27:33 * Sgeo__ would not mind surviving on that liquid alone
23:27:39 <ais523> Sgeo__: it tastes awful
23:27:50 <ais523> the doctors actually had a really simple test to see if someone needed it or not
23:27:51 <Sgeo__> Oh. Any chance that flavoring could be added?
23:27:59 <ais523> it was that if you were capable of tolerating the taste, you needed it
23:28:23 <ais523> and yes, you could flavour it reasonably easily
23:28:33 * Sgeo__ wants!
23:28:38 <ais523> but the problem was knowing which flavourings I'd react to, and which I wouldn't
23:28:43 <Sgeo__> Ah
23:28:48 <ais523> it was amusing, because it came on prescription
23:28:56 <ais523> and most of the medicines in the pharmacy were pills, or tiny bottles
23:29:08 <ais523> whereas what came for me came in giant boxes that were too heavy to carry for more than a few minutes
23:32:39 * Sgeo__ still wants it
23:33:03 <ais523> Sgeo__: why?
23:33:37 <Sgeo__> Perfect nutrition, never needing to make decisions about food,
23:34:36 <coppro> It's probably incredibly expensive, too
23:34:50 <ais523> coppro: cost is unknown because it only came on prescription over the NHS
23:34:54 <coppro> yeah
23:34:54 <ais523> but I'm guessing incredibly expensive, yes
23:35:16 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Lemme guess...
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23:35:20 <ehirdiphone> Ensure?
23:35:22 <coppro> I wish we had near-free prescription drugs here :(
23:35:32 * Sgeo__ used to rely on Ensure
23:35:37 <ais523> ehirdiphone: no, ProSoBee
23:35:45 <ais523> not sure on what capitalisation they use atm, they tended to change it at random
23:35:59 <ehirdiphone> Ensure is evil in a bottle. At least if you were forced to drink it like I was...
23:36:08 <ehirdiphone> Disgusting.
23:36:40 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
23:36:41 <ais523> ehirdiphone: what was wrong with you that they made you drink it?
23:37:01 <ais523> anyway, even nowadays I use soya milk for breakfast, a literal habit of a lifetime is near-impossible to break, and I don't see any reason to
23:37:10 <ais523> especially as I have problems with large quantities of regular milk
23:37:19 <ehirdiphone> They equated a low BMI with malnutrition. So wrong it hurts.
23:37:47 <ais523> ouch
23:37:54 <ais523> at least in my case they had a plausible and valid reason
23:38:02 <ais523> although they got most of the specifics really wrong
23:38:08 <ehirdiphone> BMI is simply pure bullshit invented for 1800s bodies by someone who had no idea what they were doing AND it's only meant for adults
23:38:19 <ehirdiphone> Also, Sgeo__, not perfect nutrition.
23:38:33 <ehirdiphone> Nutrition science is just... Hopeless unscience.
23:38:35 -!- ais523 has left (?).
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23:38:47 <ehirdiphone> wb ais523
23:38:54 <ais523> I have no idea how I ended up parting
23:38:59 <ais523> the tab just randomly disappeared for no obvious reason
23:39:07 <coppro> accidentally hit Ctrl-W?
23:39:15 <ais523> no, I was using the touchpad at the time
23:39:20 * Sgeo__ pretty much had to drink Ensure because otherwise I simply would not eat enough to sustain myself
23:39:47 <ehirdiphone> Don't you need it prescribed?
23:40:10 <ehirdiphone> Anyway, food apathy is a very strangely common thing among nerds.
23:40:29 <Sgeo__> Um, I'm pretty sure that Ensure does NOT need to be prescribed
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23:40:42 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I'm far from food-apathetic
23:40:43 <coppro> ais523: Accdentally middle-clicked?
23:40:46 <ehirdiphone> Linus Torvalds' mother says he was perfectly satisfied in a room with a computer and a bowl of cold pasta for hours.
23:40:49 <ais523> coppro: could be
23:40:51 <coppro> he was talking about Sgeo
23:40:59 <ais523> it's virtually impossible to middle-click on this laptop
23:41:08 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__: Hmm. Maybe just over here.
23:41:08 <ais523> thus, if I did middle-click, it's likely that it was done by accident
23:41:12 <ehirdiphone> I was certainly
23:41:18 <ehirdiphone> Prescribed it bit then
23:41:26 <Sgeo__> But I think a doctor did recommend it, iirc
23:41:30 <ehirdiphone> They get paracetamol prescribed here too
23:41:35 <ehirdiphone> *but then
23:41:53 <ehirdiphone> Seriously; they won't just give you pain killers. At all.
23:41:59 <Sgeo__> paracetamol == tylenol, or is that some other thing beginning with p
23:42:01 <Sgeo__> ?
23:42:18 <ehirdiphone> Headache? Deal with it or beg them to ask a doctor to prescribe something.
23:42:33 <Sgeo__> Well, it can be dangerous..
23:42:54 <ehirdiphone> Yes, one dose of pain killers used on two year olds.
23:42:59 <ehirdiphone> It could KILL.
23:43:04 <coppro> Ibuprofen?
23:43:10 <Sgeo__> Some people might be stupid and overdose
23:43:14 <ais523> Sgeo__: Tylenol seems a strangely American drug, it was mentioned all over US TV (which I was watching from Canada), but I've hardly heard of it in the uK
23:43:18 <ais523> *UK
23:43:21 <ehirdiphone> Paracetamol. Or is that a brand name?
23:43:33 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__: Not if they give you the dose...
23:43:34 <coppro> Tylenol is a brand name of Paracetamol/acetamenophin
23:43:43 <coppro> s/P/p/
23:44:02 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Aspirin seems quite uncommon here too.
23:44:21 * Sgeo__ prefers the name "Acetamenophin" to "Paracetamol"
23:44:31 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__: I don't.
23:44:47 <ehirdiphone> So... Antibiotics!
23:44:59 <ehirdiphone> Antibiotics eh.
23:45:15 <coppro> isn't it really easy to make salicylic acid anyway?
23:45:25 <Sgeo__> Paracetamol is dangerous to the overdoser. Antibiotics are dangerous to everyone else who has to deal with the resistant bacteria because of stupid people's abuse
23:45:26 <coppro> *acetylsalicylic acid
23:45:46 <coppro> yeah, preventative antibiotics = fail
23:45:56 <coppro> Norway's got it right
23:46:08 <coppro> also, I joined the Pirate Party
23:46:12 <ehirdiphone> Yeah I was on antibiotics but I had a pus-y wound.
23:46:23 <ehirdiphone> Which sucked and all.
23:47:08 <ehirdiphone> ais523: So what WERE your food intolerance?
23:47:11 <Sgeo__> When I was very young, a wasp stung me. I got antibiotics for that
23:47:18 <ehirdiphone> *intolerances
23:47:32 <ais523> ehirdiphone: quite a long list; the major ones are large amounts of cheese, and fish
23:47:47 <ehirdiphone> The antibiotics I were on were serious stuff. Nasty side effects.
23:47:50 <ais523> also, it's believed that if I eat too many nuts I'll develop a nut allergy, so I steer away from them
23:48:03 <ehirdiphone> Used to treat infections of major organs.
23:48:07 <coppro> Sgeo__: wtf
23:48:18 <ehirdiphone> ais523: What's wrong with you?
23:48:24 <Sgeo__> coppro, apparently, there were staff bacteria or something
23:48:32 <Sgeo__> (staph?)
23:48:37 <coppro> staph
23:48:43 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__: Who administered worker bacteria?
23:48:44 <ais523> ehirdiphone: who knows? in the end they decided they didn't know and found out by trial and error
23:48:47 <coppro> ais523: get a tapeworm
23:49:05 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Worst advice ever. At any time
23:49:13 <ais523> coppro: that helps some diseases in some cases; I don't know if it would help some disorder at random
23:49:23 <ehirdiphone> "I suggest TAPEWORMS!"
23:49:40 <ais523> in general, you don't get "miracle cures" that cure everything
23:49:56 <Sgeo__> What about SCP-500?
23:49:56 <ais523> you normally need a cure that correlates at least somewhat to the disease
23:49:58 <coppro> I believe tapeworms were suggested as a cure for hay fever and other immunoglobin-induced allergies. Personally, I'd take the allergies.
23:50:01 <Sgeo__> [Yes, I know it's fiction]
23:50:14 <ais523> coppro: intolerances aren't allergies, though
23:50:28 <coppro> oh, ouch
23:50:30 <ais523> they both have the vague "don't eat various foods" restrictions, but the effects if you do eat them are entirely different
23:50:40 <coppro> yeah
23:50:40 <ais523> screwing up an intolerance is less bad in general than screwing up an allergy
23:50:44 <ehirdiphone> I have hayfever sort of. And eczma (quite mild).
23:50:51 <ehirdiphone> They interact annoyingly.
23:50:52 <ais523> even though you don't want to experience the effects, or be around someone who is
23:50:53 <Sgeo__> Does lactose-intolerance vary? Used to be lactose-intolerant, then it seemed to go away
23:50:58 <ehirdiphone> I get rashes from pollen.
23:51:05 <ais523> Sgeo__: intolerances have been known to fade over time, yes
23:51:10 <Sgeo__> Now I'm not sure if it's back or not or keeps coming back or is just my imagination
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23:51:13 -!- cal153 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:51:29 <coppro> I have an allergy to birch pollen and things similar to it (many fresh fruits and vegetables :/)
23:51:40 <ehirdiphone> I have an allergy to allergies.
23:51:42 <ais523> Sgeo__: if you believe something is bad for you, it probably is; the placebo effect is strong and works both ways
23:52:26 <ehirdiphone> Anyone here ever had an operation?
23:52:37 <Sgeo__> (+)
23:52:38 <ehirdiphone> I had a hernia removed; that's it.
23:53:10 <ehirdiphone> Sgeo__: ?
23:53:33 <Sgeo__> Failed attempt at a joke
23:53:52 <ehirdiphone> Oh i see
23:53:52 <ais523> ehirdiphone: yes, but I was too young to remember it or even know why it was carried out
23:53:55 <ehirdiphone> ...die
23:54:21 <coppro> I've had tubes put in my eardrum for an infection when I was really young, and had an ingrown toenail clipped
23:54:26 <ehirdiphone> ais523: ?! I could never forget. How old are you? And are you sure you did not originate in a test tube?
23:54:35 <ehirdiphone> coppro: So, "no."
23:54:41 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Were
23:54:42 <coppro> ehirdiphone: those are both operations
23:54:43 <ehirdiphone> Not are
23:54:45 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I'm 23, and the operation was when I was around 2 or 3
23:54:53 <ehirdiphone> coppro: Yes, but...
23:55:05 <ehirdiphone> I had my hernia removed @ 5
23:55:14 <ais523> 5 would be a lot easier to remember
23:55:25 <ehirdiphone> To this date, brush your hand gently near the scar and it caves in slightly.
23:55:26 <coppro> yeah
23:55:33 <coppro> my earliest memory is just over 2 years old
23:55:39 <ehirdiphone> The fixed part of my muscle wall thingy
23:56:17 <ehirdiphone> My memories start around 5 to 7 with vague recollections of the years before. Only very few moments.
23:56:50 <ehirdiphone> Logo is a nice language.
23:57:40 <ehirdiphone> Wild topic changes woo
23:59:01 <ehirdiphone> >_>
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