←2010-06-18 2010-06-19 2010-06-20→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:01 <scshunt> what do you call it when a piece of music starts on a beat other than #1, and how do you get Rosegarden to do this?
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00:04:45 <scshunt> my mind is blanking
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01:48:42 <CakeProphet> :o
01:48:56 <CakeProphet> I am a legend.
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01:50:32 <leBMD> how did that happen?
01:51:56 <leBMD> So, I made my first good CA today.
01:55:04 <Gregor> Maybe you can replace the one south of Oregon with your good one. Or the one north of the US.
01:55:17 <Gregor> *hyuk hyuk*
01:55:29 <leBMD> lol
01:55:42 <leBMD> I meant cellular automaton. :P
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02:01:08 <Gregor> I realize that :P
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02:10:08 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, oh?
02:10:49 <AnMaster> leBMD, link?
02:11:13 <leBMD> http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=434
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02:23:50 <leBMD> AnMaster, what do you think?
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02:38:49 <AnMaster> leBMD, sorry was busy
02:39:00 <leBMD> it's ok
02:39:19 <AnMaster> leBMD, um any images?
02:39:23 <AnMaster> I don't have golly locally
02:39:44 <leBMD> er, not right now
02:39:54 <AnMaster> leBMD, will comment on it when that is up
02:40:00 <leBMD> ok
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02:44:39 <wareya> Have there been any grammatical case based languages?
02:47:10 <AnMaster> night
02:47:17 <AnMaster> (no not an answer to the question)
02:47:21 <AnMaster> (just, good night)
02:57:57 <CakeProphet> wareya: Perl versions < 6.0 have features inspired by case in natural languages.
02:58:04 <CakeProphet> scalary and array context.
02:58:06 <CakeProphet> -y
02:58:50 <CakeProphet> nothing too revolutionary
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03:04:50 <cheater99> hello sweeties
03:05:09 * cheater99 is burning through haskell, so far it's a nice language with no shittiness
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03:18:03 <Gregor> HOLY FEKK THAT'S RIGHT
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04:49:40 <uorygl> Anyone know a web server that responds on every port?
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06:11:08 <zzo38> I have some crazy idea, that if you have /dev/webcam is a block device to access picture from webcam, then you can mount it as a filesystem by putting some paper with barcodes in front of the camera and then use the mount command.......
06:15:53 <pikhq> Holy SHIT
06:15:59 <pikhq> Perry Bible Fellowship updated
06:16:52 <zzo38> This crazy idea is one of the most crazy idea probably
06:18:16 <pikhq> Probably.
06:18:29 <pikhq> Certainly possible, but not very *useful*.
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06:21:45 <zzo38> It probably isn't very useful. But it is useful to have /dev/webcam to be a block device to access the raw picture. It is less useful to mount it as a filesystem.
06:36:10 <pikhq> Hrm. That's stupid. There's a "list of the best 10 Pixar films".
06:36:17 <pikhq> There have only *been* 10 Pixar films.
06:37:54 <zzo38> Then, the list is all of them, it should be? Until, they make more films, and then they will update the list if any of the new ones are better. (If they make bad films then they don't have to update the list)
06:38:09 <pikhq> Yeah...
06:38:23 <pikhq> I'm not sure Pixar is (currently) capable of making bad films.
06:38:44 <pikhq> Their worst one so far was merely "pretty good".
06:46:44 <Gregor> And that is?
06:47:24 <pikhq> Cars.
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06:51:49 <Gregor> pikhq: IMDB claims 55 :P
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06:53:12 <Gregor> Oh, that list includes shorts and TV episodes. Foo.
06:53:22 <Gregor> Also, specials and other irrelevant drivel.
06:53:26 <pikhq> Pixar's done quite a lot of shorts.
06:53:40 <pikhq> That list also includes movies in production.
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08:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> AAARGH
08:15:55 <Phantom_Hoover> The compression of my home folder failed.
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08:39:27 <CakeProphet> I just got an idea
08:40:05 <CakeProphet> perhaps we could solve N=NP by using the process calculii to create constructions of a UTM that can solve nondeterministic problems at O(n)
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09:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, P=NP surely?
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09:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, will the compression of my home directory work if I log out and switch user?
09:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover> So that nothing is modified?
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10:08:01 <oerjan> <ais523> although I don't think there's anything in Formula that fails if you implement it by calculating decimal expansions lazily
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10:09:23 <oerjan> the parts which need to be tested for exact equality with an integer might fail if you hit upon a formula which is unexpectedly an integer (like some n*e*pi things)
10:10:02 <oerjan> (i.e. it's an unsolved problem whether e*pi is rational)
10:11:53 <oerjan> that might be hard even with something more complicated than lazy evaluation, too
10:14:55 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> wareya: Perl versions < 6.0 have features inspired by case in natural languages.
10:14:59 <oerjan> also Perligata
10:19:17 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> perhaps we could solve N=NP by using the process calculii to create constructions of a UTM that can solve nondeterministic problems at O(n)
10:20:08 <oklopol> N?
10:20:23 <oerjan> not without doing something insanely clever. an ordinary UTM needs something like time proportional to the number of processes to simulate them
10:20:49 <oerjan> oklopol: obviously a typo for P
10:20:56 <oklopol> i just learned that windows has a log viewer, and i used it to find out why it shut down during the night, god i'm cool
10:20:58 <oklopol> oh
10:21:49 <oklopol> i have no idea what process calculii is so i assumed N is a complexity class that has to do with it
10:21:57 <oerjan> and redefining the P=NP problem to use a different kind of underlying TM doesn't solve the _original_ problem.
10:22:08 <oerjan> oklopol: i assumed he meant something like pi calculus
10:23:10 <oklopol> actually my guess was N means some class to do with pi calculus
10:23:49 <oklopol> if N was a weird name for its polynomial time stuff-it-can-solve problem, then N=NP might be open mightn't it
10:24:20 <oklopol> and CakeProphet would definitely know this because he's a complexity theory guru
10:24:41 <oerjan> in fact it's a well known theorem that if you try to extend your underlying model with _oracles_ (essentially a subroutine for solving some specific problem), then you can choose the oracle either such that P=NP or such that P != NP in the "relativized" model
10:24:53 <oklopol> yeah
10:25:18 <oklopol> is it really well known
10:25:27 <oklopol> i learned it like a month ago
10:26:09 <oerjan> oklopol: i don't know what N alone means in complexity theory (probably something), but if he typoed an L instead then it _would_ have been an open problem
10:26:17 <oklopol> btw isn't P=NP with an oracle sort of trivial if you just take some ridiculously good oracle?
10:26:25 <oerjan> oklopol: it's well known among complexity theorists :D
10:26:31 <oklopol> yeah, L!=PSPACE but otherwise all open
10:26:39 <oklopol> right
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10:27:17 <oerjan> oklopol: because it makes a _lot_ of the methods they use unusable for deciding P=NP
10:27:32 <oerjan> (most of the methods "relativize")
10:27:42 <oklopol> yeah okay i guess it might be one of the first things you hear about complexity theory because it has to do with the only problem people are interested in, the famous P=NP problem that asks whether polynomial time is the same as not-polynomial time, otherwise known as the quantum computation model.
10:28:06 <oklopol> yeah
10:28:11 <oklopol> i know that too!
10:28:13 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
10:28:34 <oerjan> yeah i know you were joking, but still...
10:28:51 <oklopol> i don't know the specifics yet tho, but soon i will know more than you... wait how much more do you know?
10:28:56 <oklopol> do you know left sets
10:29:08 <oerjan> what the heck is a left set
10:29:14 <oklopol> oh wait also we have a course about complexity theory next fall
10:31:30 <oklopol> er i forgot a detail about the definition :D
10:32:06 <oerjan> hm wait is it that thing about context-free grammars?
10:33:17 <oerjan> where you construct a _regular_ language that describes how a left part of a string in the original language can be constructed
10:34:02 <oerjan> probably not though
10:34:06 <oklopol> okay umm lol i can't remember exactly under pressure, but i think for a problem in NP, its left set is (x, w) where x is an instance in the language, and w is a string such that there's a witness y with w<=y
10:34:28 <oklopol> and the idea is this problem is in NP too because you can guess the witness
10:34:40 <oklopol> so then we can do sort of interval pruning to find the maximal witness
10:35:11 <oklopol> this is used to show P=NP if(f) there are sparse sets that are NP-hard (with bounded truth-table reduction)
10:35:12 <oklopol> s
10:35:27 <oerjan> oh
10:35:47 <oklopol> the complexity theory book i'm reading starts with two trivial algorithms and then this theorem, the proof of which is something like 8 pages
10:36:05 <oerjan> ouch
10:36:12 <oklopol> complexity theory companion
10:38:28 <oerjan> i haven't actually read a whole book, i've read _some_ of papadimitriou
10:40:16 <oerjan> so i know like why QBF is complete for PSPACE, that was sort of the most complicated thing i learned there i think
10:40:32 <oklopol> P=NP if co-NP has a sparse hard set is pretty easy btw, lets say you can reduce to that sparse set from sat with f, then basically you just enumerate partially solved sat instances, and the amount of them you need to keep track of is polynomial, because if you have two partially solved instances a and b and f(a) = f(b) then one is true if the other is, and if there are more than p(n) f(x) values where p is the growth rate polynomial
10:40:36 <oklopol> i'm wordy
10:40:43 <oklopol> i'll repeat half for fun
10:40:44 <oklopol> because if you have two partially solved instances a and b and f(a) = f(b) then one is true if the other is, and if there are more than p(n) f(x) values where p is the growth rate polynomial of the sparse set, then one of the instances must be satisfiable
10:42:32 <oerjan> my brain is too rusty for that today
10:42:51 <oklopol> because the set contains at most p(n) strings of length n, where n is your sat instance length, so if you map to p(n)+1 different strings of length n, one of them can't be in the set
10:43:22 <oklopol> okay, well i realized there are a few details you need to understand before you can appreciate the easiness of the underlying idea
10:43:27 <oklopol> :P
10:43:36 <oerjan> ok
10:43:52 <oklopol> for the left set proof i still have no idea what the underlying idea is, and i've read it like 3 times
10:44:33 <oklopol> o
10:44:33 <oklopol> o
10:44:33 <oklopol> o
10:44:33 <oklopol> o
10:44:42 <oerjan> lately, the last complexity proof i've read is a proof that you can do integer division and arithmetic stuff in logspace. hm i probably mentioned it.
10:44:51 <oklopol> yep
10:45:00 <oklopol> division is surprisingly hard
10:45:02 <oklopol> i hear
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10:45:10 <oerjan> (it was actually somewhat stronger than logspace, but that's the result i was interested in)
10:46:48 <oklopol> okay so if there's a tally set, subset of 1* that is, that's np-hard, then also p=np, we reduce sat to it, then again you only need a polynomial amt of instances, because if one of them has f-image that's not of 1* form, then it's unsatisfiable, and if two have the same image, again you can remove one of them because one is satisfiable if the other one is
10:46:50 <oklopol> is that easier?
10:47:04 <oerjan> i _tried_ starting to read the result that SL = L but that had a lot of unknown graph theory at the bottom so just too much work
10:47:14 <oklopol> SL=
10:47:15 <oklopol> ?
10:47:20 <oklopol> superlog
10:47:24 <oerjan> symmetric
10:47:38 <oklopol> okay that tells me everything
10:47:59 <oklopol> it actually tells me nothing
10:48:06 <oerjan> essentially you have a nondeterministic turing machine where if you take a step one way you can always take it in reverse
10:48:07 <oklopol> i'm just screwing you
10:48:16 <oklopol> oh
10:48:35 <oklopol> is L with a nondet tm or det?
10:48:38 <oklopol> or does it even matter
10:48:51 <oerjan> there might be technical reasons why that is too simple explanation but that's the gist
10:49:02 <oerjan> L is det, NL is nondet. N = NL is still open
10:49:11 <oklopol> :D
10:49:45 <oklopol> okay
10:49:58 <oerjan> oklopol: the other simpler way to say it is that SL is the set of problems for which "undirected graph reachability" is complete (under log-reductions)
10:50:09 <oerjan> for NL drop the undirected
10:50:41 <oklopol> 8\
10:51:06 <oklopol> so it's open whether dijkstra's algorithm can solve all problems in NP?
10:51:10 <oerjan> so restricting to undirected graph makes it simpler
10:51:17 <oerjan> oklopol: um what is that?
10:51:35 <oklopol> isn't it graph reachability
10:52:00 <oklopol> i thought it's one of the three algorithms people know by name
10:52:40 <oerjan> graph reachability is complete for NL. that is an important theorem as it also can be used to deduce other space things
10:52:40 <oklopol> my point was just to show how badly i must've misunderstood the sense in which reachability is complete
10:53:08 <oklopol> do you know why L <= P, is that obvious?
10:53:12 <oerjan> oklopol: NL, not NP
10:53:19 <oerjan> yes that's obvious
10:53:41 <oerjan> if you have only logarithmic space then if you run for more than P time you must cycle
10:53:46 <oklopol> oh lol true
10:54:12 <oklopol> i mean intuitively, i'm not sure i could fill in the details
10:54:40 <oerjan> SPACE(f(n)) <= TIME(exp(f(n))
10:55:04 <oklopol> oh okay
10:55:51 <oklopol> that is sort of obvious
10:56:05 <oerjan> dijkstra's algorithm is that just marking every vertex you can reach from those you already have, until you've either got to the one you want or have none left to try?
10:56:27 <oerjan> (with some book keeping to avoid duplicating work)
10:57:01 <oerjan> because there's another important algorithm for graph reachability which uses more time but less space
10:57:07 <oklopol> yeah but you also find the shortest path so you need to be greedy in that aspect
10:57:28 <oerjan> specifically it does reachability in O(log(n)^2) space
10:57:36 <oklopol> go where you've gone least distance sofar
10:58:07 <oerjan> and that with the completeness result gives the important theorem NSPACE(f(n)) <= SPACE(f(n)^2) as a corollary
10:58:23 <oklopol> so n would be number of edges or what?
10:58:30 <oklopol> vertices + edges maybe
10:58:31 <oklopol> lol
10:58:40 <oklopol> and then log(n)^2 means....
10:58:46 <oerjan> well it doesn't matter when you log
10:59:07 <oklopol> log(n) means that you can essentially store an index to a vertex
10:59:26 <oklopol> linear amount of indices and linear additional shit
10:59:45 <oklopol> yeah okay i think i have a grasp of what logarithms mean
10:59:57 <oerjan> log(n)^2 means you can essentially store a stack of indexes while recursing in a divide and conquer manner. at least that's what the algorithm does :D
10:59:59 <oklopol> i have a hard time getting any sort of concrete view of what logspace actually means
11:00:10 <oklopol> i mean for the implementer
11:00:15 <oklopol> of an algo
11:00:43 <oerjan> oklopol: as wikipedia said, a finite set of pointers + a logarithmic set of bit values
11:01:29 <oklopol> okay i don't see how you can do the d&q
11:02:28 <oerjan> oklopol: to check if there is a path from v1 to v2 of length <= n, iterate through all vertices v checking if there's a path from v1 to v and from v to v2 of length <= n/2
11:02:28 <oklopol> how can you know when you're in a loop with finite pointers
11:02:35 <oklopol> hmm
11:02:54 <oklopol> okay that's the same idea they use for PSPACE searches
11:02:57 <oerjan> of course with some base case
11:03:11 <oerjan> oklopol: yep, that's essentially the same thing
11:03:44 <oerjan> the QBF proof used a lot of that reachability stuff
11:03:58 <oerjan> or well the proof i have internalized, anyhow
11:04:04 <oklopol> oh lol iterate through all vertices, ofc you can do THAT, for some reason i thought you meant iterate through all vertices ON THE PATH BETWEEN V1 AND V2, which i found hard to do for some reason....... :D
11:04:18 <oerjan> yeah
11:04:53 <oerjan> oh and of course there is the even weirder proof that reachability _is_ in NL
11:05:14 <oklopol> quantum brainfuck is... quantified... okay what
11:05:18 <oklopol> quantum bit fields
11:05:25 <oklopol> i should probably know this
11:05:26 <oklopol> :D
11:05:35 <oklopol> boolean formulas?
11:05:47 <oerjan> not all the "quantum" languages on the wiki may be properly quantum
11:06:01 <oklopol> oh there was a quantum brianfuck?
11:06:04 <oklopol> poor brian
11:06:37 * oerjan checks
11:07:51 <oerjan> hm not sure if that's a proper one
11:08:04 <oerjan> it has qubits at least
11:08:15 <oklopol> so okay qbf is qsat
11:08:35 <oklopol> uorygl usually knows what he's talking about, or at least knows if he doesn't
11:08:36 <oklopol> uorygl
11:08:38 <oklopol> is it proper
11:09:15 <oklopol> oh and so
11:09:23 <oklopol> then i've read the proof that it's complete too
11:09:29 <oklopol> i think
11:10:11 <oklopol> no wait actually you need to implement a tm in the circuitry right?
11:10:40 <oklopol> i think i've just read a rough description of how doing it is similar to proving sat is complete for np
11:10:53 <oklopol> or maybe i haven't really read anything
11:11:25 <oerjan> oh wait
11:11:44 <oerjan> you're talking about the qbf i mentioned, not some quantum stuff?
11:11:49 <oklopol> the sat completeness proof i read from the 50's or something implemented some sort of BASIC derivative with guessing
11:11:51 <oklopol> yes :D
11:12:13 <oklopol> sorry quantum brainfuck was just the acronym that got expanded by accident
11:12:17 <oerjan> i got confused there and thought i was heavily out-maneuvered :D
11:12:23 <oklopol> hehe
11:12:48 <oklopol> i don't know anything about quantum computation, please teach me everything about it
11:12:58 <oerjan> um i know not very much more
11:13:08 <oklopol> we have a few researchers doing exactly that here, but they don't teach
11:13:47 <oklopol> or well they do teach engineers how to copypaste laplace transforms from their cheatsheets
11:14:04 <oklopol> or actually they have this massive book of them
11:14:10 <oerjan> for qbf you can essentially encode the complete state graph of a turing machine using boolean logical predicates
11:14:47 <oklopol> what exactly do you mean by complete state graph
11:14:51 <oerjan> and then you formulate that O(log(n)^2) search in logic, and get a qbf formula
11:15:27 <oerjan> a graph where a vertex is a possible state of the whole TM, including the tape (polynomially bounded though)
11:15:46 <oerjan> and an edge if there is a transition step
11:16:44 <oerjan> note that the size of this graph is exponential, but when you do the search you take the log again so it all works out
11:17:21 <oklopol> yeah i get that, but what i don't get, i think, is how exactly that shows completeness
11:18:24 <oklopol> oh hmm
11:18:27 <oerjan> oh well you search for a path between the initial state of the TM and any accepting state
11:18:37 <oklopol> now that i recalled the definition of PSPACE, i think i'm starting to see it...
11:18:45 <oklopol> who knew that might be important
11:19:30 <oerjan> the qbf formula you end up with is of polynomial size, naturally
11:19:48 <oklopol> where was this proof?
11:19:54 <oklopol> papa?
11:20:05 <oerjan> i assume that's where i read it
11:20:32 <oerjan> and i'm not sure if i really read it that way or just distilled out the essence of what it said
11:20:40 <oklopol> there's probably a mention of it in CTC, but at least the proof of completeness of sat they just have as a note in the back of the book
11:21:02 <oklopol> so probably not very detailed
11:21:12 <oklopol> :D
11:21:23 <oerjan> i like the proof because it combines so many of the other methods used for L,NL,P,NP stuff
11:21:53 <oerjan> like using the evolution state graph of a TM, encoding that using boolean logic...
11:22:12 <oklopol> where else are evolution graphs used
11:22:30 <oerjan> NL completeness
11:22:40 <oklopol> makes sense
11:22:49 <oerjan> and in a sense for proving SAT is NP-complete too
11:23:11 <oerjan> except you split up each vertex into many boolean variables again
11:24:35 <oklopol> err umm.
11:24:48 <oerjan> but that's not a very convincing example
11:25:07 <oerjan> but the SAT proof includes the time evolution of the TM, anyhow
11:25:54 <oklopol> mm yes
11:26:38 <oerjan> while the NL and PSPACE cases actually use graph algorithms on the resulting time steps
11:27:59 <oklopol> if you have a prob P in np solved by tm T you, given a string s, to check whether it's in P, make a sat instance that is true iff T accepts s, and this is easy because you have a polynomial amt of steps you need at most so you just need to encode, ah, a time evolution of T
11:28:27 <oerjan> yep
11:29:52 <oklopol> basically if you need p(n) steps at most, you make a p(n) x p(n) square, and assert for each line that you get it from the previous line by using the rewrite rules of the tm (each line has an ID of the tm)
11:30:03 <oklopol> ofc you know all this, i'm just saying it for me
11:30:35 <oerjan> yeah
11:31:55 <oklopol> and then the sat is true for a configuration if there's a tape head in accepting state in one of the squares, so it's satisfiable iff there's a run of the tm, starting from the config induced by s, that accepts
11:32:11 <oklopol> cool, i could probably fill in the exact proof
11:32:16 <oklopol> i suppose it's sort of trivial
11:32:54 <oklopol> (configuration being a consistent placement of values in the rest of the squares)
11:34:01 <oerjan> it's a simple but powerful idea
11:34:09 <oklopol> i need to do some work now i think, i feel all dirty if i don't work during my weekends
11:34:12 <oklopol> yes
11:34:15 <oklopol> and sexy
11:35:04 <oklopol> do you know "shifts dynamical systems"?
11:35:09 <oklopol> *shift
11:35:17 <oerjan> certainly
11:35:28 <oklopol> do you know why they have such a weird name
11:36:00 <oerjan> they are dynamical systems where the transformation is a shift of a sequence
11:36:17 <oklopol> you know all finite groups can be embedded in the automorphism group of the full 1-dimensional shift?
11:36:40 <oklopol> sure, but why not say dynamical shift systems or something, i don't see how shift dynamical system is even english
11:36:41 <oerjan> i cannot say i recall that result :D
11:37:18 <oerjan> "dynamical system" is a unit there
11:38:08 <oerjan> oh well
11:39:11 <oklopol> you can embed a finite permutation group: given permutation p you make an automorphism by having u*string*v always be transformed to u*p(string)*v, where u and v are chosen so that these can't overlap
11:39:53 <oerjan> well i know all groups are isomorphic to permutation groups
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11:42:00 <oklopol> now clearly the map from a permutation group to those is injective (just give them something to permute and they'll permute differently), and t(p1)t(p2) = t(p1p2) because clearly doing two transformations after each other does u*s*v -> u*p2(s)*v -> u*p1(p2(s))*v
11:42:12 <oklopol> the transformations always leave everything outside u*s*v patterns unchanged
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11:42:38 <oerjan> ok, the only thing i don't see is why you can choose u and v like that
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11:43:00 <oklopol> 1^(2n) 0 s 0 (10)^n
11:43:08 <oklopol> where |s| = n
11:43:20 <oklopol> IIRC, maybe you need to require something of s too
11:43:25 <oklopol> ...no
11:43:52 <oklopol> 1^(2n) can't be anywhere but in the beginning
11:43:56 <oklopol> so no overlap
11:44:24 <oerjan> right you divide the whole sequence at 1^(2n) 0 points i guess
11:44:24 <oklopol> and u = 1^(2n) 0, v = 0 (10)^n of course
11:44:41 <oklopol> what do you mean?
11:45:08 <oklopol> if a transformation given by permutation p sees such a pattern, it'll rewrite what comes after
11:45:29 <oklopol> by permuting it
11:45:50 <oklopol> oh and, it should be easy to see that this is a block map, and that it's invertible
11:46:26 <oerjan> i'm not sure you actually need (10)^n at the end...
11:46:58 <oklopol> otherwise what if there's ... 1^(2n) 0 1^(2n) 0 ... inside a string
11:47:27 <oerjan> the strings have length n you said
11:47:29 <oklopol> how do you rewrite (1^(2n) 0)^ww (w being omega)
11:47:32 <oklopol> err
11:47:49 <oklopol> the transformations we're compiling permutations to are maps from the full shift to itself
11:48:27 <oerjan> i know
11:48:31 <oklopol> so the transformations need to behave like the group on ANY bi-infinite string in the full shift
11:49:22 <oklopol> ... 1^(2n) 0 1^(2n) 0 1^(2n) 0 ... has 1^(2n) 0 1^n inside it in two ways, what does a transformation t permutation p compiles to do on such input?
11:49:56 <oerjan> oklopol: i said to drop (10)^n, not 0 (10)^n
11:50:03 <oerjan> the 0 alone is enough, i think
11:50:05 <oklopol> okay sorry
11:50:22 <oklopol> i forgot it was there so i thought you were somehow fundamentally lost
11:50:30 <oklopol> yeah should be enough
11:50:47 <oklopol> i actually used that when proving to myself that the pattern can't overlap itself
11:50:53 <oerjan> and couldn't you also reduce 2n to n+1
11:51:02 <oklopol> yes clearlyy
11:51:04 <oklopol> *clearly
11:51:21 <oerjan> ok then
11:51:48 <oklopol> but i haven't really thought about that, because i think it's intuitively clear u and v can be chosen SOMEHOW, perhaps because it's rather common to do that in combinatorics on words
11:52:23 <oklopol> anyway the paper this is from is not the best thing ever written
11:52:35 <oerjan> scandalous!
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11:53:12 <oklopol> it's the same one that proved stuff like "ca rules that look only to the right can only rotate a sequence to the left" with a rather complicated formal proof
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11:54:38 <oerjan> ...right
11:54:48 <oklopol> it's an old classic, a collection of stuff proved sofar when the field was young, by hedlund, sort of starting the thing
11:54:55 <oerjan> that _does_ sound obvious (that you cannot rotate right)
11:56:10 <oklopol> even if it needs proof, the proof could be as follows: ...1:000... and ...0:000... are rewritten in the same way
11:56:16 <oklopol> err the 000... part is
11:56:34 <oklopol> so you can't get 1 to pop up in just one
11:57:07 <oerjan> mhm
11:57:11 <oklopol> well i dunno maybe the details aren't completely trivial
11:57:20 <oklopol> shut up
11:57:47 <oerjan> wait what, mhm is my way of saying i have nothing to say, without looking absent
11:57:53 <oklopol> :P
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11:58:38 <oklopol> i know that on an intellectual level, but i... wait actually i just recalled i don't admit i have anything else
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11:58:55 <oklopol> so i have no idea what just happened
11:59:01 <oklopol> aaaaaaaaanyway about that stuff i have to do
11:59:03 <oklopol> i should do it
11:59:07 <oklopol> soon i will
11:59:22 <oklopol> maybe one more proof first
11:59:38 <oklopol> or maybe not
11:59:43 <oklopol> human communication should be more like this
11:59:52 <oklopol> "hey dude listen to this result i just read"
12:00:16 <oerjan> you don't say
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12:00:55 <oklopol> seriously! --->
12:00:58 <oerjan> cu
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12:40:39 <waga> hi
12:43:00 <waga> bye
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14:19:32 <alise> I just realised that if you watch "Caretaker", then "Endgame", you miss nothing except that Seven of Nine suddenly appears.
14:19:37 <alise> Such is the power of the HMS Reset Button.
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14:41:22 <zzo38> Now I added a way to add IRC commands by script
14:42:31 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/HKGi
14:44:10 <zzo38> I tried to make it as simple as reasonable possible so as to not overload the server
14:48:41 <alise> Wow, someone actually bothered to clean up the video on the DVD release of The Next Generation and then encoded it all with x264 on super-high settings, yielding a 550 MiB-per-episode average.
14:48:59 <alise> The only issue is that it's over 10 gibibytes per season.
14:50:32 <pineapple> that fits on 3 discs per season, doesn't it?
14:50:51 <alise> Define disc...
14:51:17 <alise> pineapple: No player that takes discs could play H.264, I don't think, and it'd be slow anyway. This 100 gibibyte rip is obviously designed for hard disk storage.
14:51:26 <pineapple> 4.3ish gb dvd, single layer single sided
14:51:38 <alise> Well, play H.264 in Matroska, anyway.
14:52:02 <pineapple> double sided is annoying, double layer doesn't work on some hardware
14:52:12 <alise> You could fit the whole thing on two dual-layer Blu-Ray discs, or three or four one-sided discs.
14:52:15 <pineapple> and... well, yeah, but for distribution?
14:52:24 <alise> pineapple: That would be Illegal. :P
14:52:29 <pineapple> true
14:52:43 <alise> pineapple: Although admittedly faster than downloading it.
14:53:03 <alise> 31 KiB/s download right now, but tons of peers; why?! It will take 4 days, apparently. I think I'll cancel it. And that's just the first season.
14:53:03 <pineapple> which would also be Illegal :-P
14:53:12 <alise> Yes, but less detectably so.
14:53:17 <pineapple> true
14:53:34 <pineapple> 14:19:08 <alise> I just realised that if you watch "Caretaker", then "Endgame", you miss nothing except that Seven of Nine suddenly appears.
14:53:46 <alise> also, that Janeway gave up coffee
14:53:49 <pineapple> not being a trekkie... explain?
14:54:06 <pineapple> i know it's voyager, and who the characters are
14:54:15 <pineapple> but not the relevance of skipping, nor what's inbetween
14:54:16 <alise> Caretaker and Endgame are the first and last episodes of Star Trek: Voyager, whose titular ship is also known as the "HMS Reset Button".
14:54:33 <pineapple> 1.1 and 7.22 ?
14:54:43 <alise> What's in-between is a lot of attempts to get home that inevitably fail because of the whole premise of the series, and also a whole lot of Captain Janeway being a bipolar sociopath.
14:54:58 <pineapple> the former i'd noted... the latter?
14:55:12 <alise> (Switching between righteously and suicidally upholding Universal Principles, and sometimes just breaking every rule to an ultimately futile end.)
14:55:13 <pineapple> "HMS Reset Button"?
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14:55:23 <alise> (But always making the most insane decision possible.)
14:55:36 <alise> pineapple: The attempts to get home always fail, and the characters are never developed.
14:55:43 <alise> The status quo is resumed at the end of every episode.
14:55:59 <alise> One could very easily watch just the first and last episode and not be confused at all.
14:56:00 <pineapple> sounds like the writers were applying discworld logic
14:57:27 <alise> Well, they pretty much set themselves up for this with the premise. By definition, them getting home is the end of the series.
14:57:34 <alise> By definition, their main, overriding goal is to get home.
14:57:44 <alise> Therefore, every episode consists of them getting some hope that might let them get home, then being let down.
14:58:21 <pineapple> did the characters not develop, though?
14:58:37 <pineapple> i mean, there was the relationship
14:58:46 <pineapple> and the doctor
14:59:03 <alise> Okay, the Doctor developed slightly; a lot at the start, then once or twice later on.
14:59:10 <alise> But the Doctor is not featured much in the final episode at all.
14:59:17 <pineapple> aaah
14:59:20 <alise> Okay, so him getting married and finally choosing a name might be a bit confusing, but you can extrapolate.
14:59:26 <pineapple> "what's that thing on his arm?"
14:59:42 <alise> And watching the first, say, four episodes would get rid of the name and marrying confusion as he quickly becomes more human.
14:59:48 <pineapple> (portable hologram projector)
14:59:49 <alise> pineapple: I never said it'd be /completely/ understandable! :P
14:59:53 <pineapple> heh
15:00:51 <alise> pineapple: does the relationship even come up in the finale?
15:01:02 <pineapple> not sure
15:01:08 <alise> I think maybe once it does
15:08:31 <zzo38> How do you calculate if two webs are the same spider or not? Like when Archimedes has to figure out whether or not a gold crown contains silver, it is in this one also disallowed to ruin anything.
15:10:14 <AnMaster> what?
15:10:31 * AnMaster tries to figure out if zzo38 is serious or not
15:10:37 <AnMaster> hm I guess you are
15:10:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, so I guess I would look at the pattern and see if they seem to be the same species?
15:11:28 <AnMaster> and well if density is relevant you could actually it in water without any issue since spider web does not dissolve in water
15:12:31 <zzo38> OK you can try that
15:13:37 <AnMaster> zzo38, but spider web is so light I doubt the displacement would be measurable
15:13:51 <AnMaster> zzo38, due to surface tension and such
15:14:09 <zzo38> Yes, it is what I thought
15:14:15 <AnMaster> spider web would probably even float on the surface tension
15:14:37 <zzo38> The question as posed does not require the use of water.
15:14:49 <AnMaster> zzo38, looking at the pattern would be a way more useful for finding out which type of spider
15:15:30 <zzo38> Yes, but can you tell by visual inspection? If you have measuring devices can you tell? (I do mean you personally)
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15:17:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, no, I'm no expert, but experts could tell
15:17:38 <augur> http://twitter.com/neiltyson/statuses/16547985471
15:17:48 <AnMaster> zzo38, so I would ask an expert
15:18:53 -!- metcalf has joined.
15:18:59 <metcalf> hi
15:19:54 <metcalf> using a zx spectrum to connect to irc!
15:20:30 -!- metcalf has changed nick to impomatic.
15:23:13 <AnMaster> impomatic, nice!
15:23:36 <AnMaster> impomatic, didn't those have horrible keyboards?
15:25:21 <zzo38> Did you ever noticed that the Lucas sequence contains the atomic numbers for Copper and Silver consecutively? The next number is three less than the atomic number for Gold. (I don't know if Hofstadter had any intention from this)
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15:27:21 <zzo38> I didn't know ZX Spectrum has IRC?
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15:36:10 <alise> <zzo38> Did you ever noticed that the Lucas sequence contains the atomic numbers for Copper and Silver consecutively? The next number is three less than the atomic number for Gold. (I don't know if Hofstadter had any intention from this)
15:36:15 <alise> I'm pretty sure Hofstadter was not inspired by that :P
15:37:32 <zzo38> Yes, I didn't think he was. But after I noticed that, someone else told me he was. But I didn't believe that
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15:51:31 <oklopol> what, a number series contains elements of the periodic table? shocking!
15:53:49 <oklopol> i wonder if there are primes that are the atomic numbers of some element
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16:00:12 <zzo38> Simplicity is the key!
16:04:15 <zzo38> Good day, gentlemen!
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16:16:24 <alise> zzo38: indeed so.
16:21:44 <oklopol> windows 7's minesweeper just threw a stack overflow
16:22:23 <oklopol> are they still using c or something :DS
16:23:10 <alise> yes lol :DDDD
16:24:32 <oklopol> :DDDDDD
16:24:38 <oklopol> what are they like retarded huh
16:24:45 <oklopol> don't they know i think it sucks
16:30:26 <augur> la
16:30:26 <augur> lalala
16:36:10 <alise> lalalalala
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16:55:38 <alise> So.
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17:06:01 <zzo38> Perhaps I should add some FAQ into my IRC. I already have the program and template and stuff for doing so (just type HELP FAQ to view the FAQ), but there is no entry yet.
17:08:41 <zzo38> I can add questions about the administration of this server, but I can also add question about the software being used, too. (If anyone has a question)
17:09:18 <zzo38> Do you have any important questions about these things?
17:11:05 <AnMaster> <zzo38> I didn't know ZX Spectrum has IRC? <-- well, I assume someone wrote something for it
17:11:24 <AnMaster> however, I do wonder how he connects to the network?
17:11:32 <AnMaster> s/?//
17:12:18 <AnMaster> presumably using some "modern" computer as a kind of "proxy" for the ethernet, connecting to that one using serial cable or whatever happens to be suitable
17:13:05 <zzo38> Maybe. VERSION does say is client on ZX Spectrum computer, I tried
17:13:13 <CakeProphet> hmmm... someone should build one of those wooden computers
17:13:22 <CakeProphet> and then program an esoteric operating system for it. :)
17:13:44 <zzo38> What wooden computer?
17:13:44 <AnMaster> zzo38, well, presumably the client was written recently, since unless I got the dates completely wrong IRC is way younger than ZX Spectrum
17:14:17 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, do you mean something else than "boring wooden case mod" here?
17:14:25 <CakeProphet> yes.
17:14:40 <CakeProphet> well... I've seen a wooden adder on youtube
17:14:49 <CakeProphet> you couldn't really program an OS for an adder though. :P
17:14:55 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, wooden cogwheels and such?
17:15:03 <CakeProphet> yes
17:15:05 <AnMaster> hm
17:15:20 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I seen a differential engine thingy in lego, let me find the link
17:15:27 <CakeProphet> it added numbers represented in binary
17:15:43 <AnMaster> ah it was a difference engine, not differential engine: http://acarol.woz.org/
17:16:02 <CakeProphet> ah, like "the" difference engine. polynomial subtraction
17:16:08 <AnMaster> yea
17:16:10 <AnMaster> yeah*
17:16:27 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, doing it in wood is not much different than using metal or plastic really. It is still the same basic idea.
17:16:38 <CakeProphet> well yes
17:16:55 <CakeProphet> the esotericness is all that matters for an esoteric computer with an esoteric OS. :)
17:17:33 <AnMaster> which boils down to cogwheels. And at least in the case of lego it also implies there will be at least one point where you are forced to cry out "Argh I have one too few of that!"
17:18:54 <alise> Hmm.
17:19:03 <alise> You know how in Logo every operation is of fixed arity, and so there are no parentheses?
17:19:08 <AnMaster> annoying that there is no ldraw cad file for that difference engine in lego.
17:19:20 <alise> You can actually do something quite like nice string concatenation in it, given flexible names.
17:19:30 <alise> Let :: = two-argument string concatenation, ; = the empty string.
17:19:30 <alise> Then
17:19:32 <AnMaster> (because that would mean I just just match it up against my parts inventory list!)
17:19:37 <alise> :: "Hello, " :: name :: "!" ;
17:19:48 <alise> This extends to any binary operation with an identity element.
17:19:58 <alise> + 1 + 2 + 3 +;
17:20:14 <AnMaster> alise, hm fixed arity in the sense of "lacks varargs"? Or something more restrictive than that?
17:20:27 <alise> AnMaster: Every procedure has arity N for every call.
17:20:31 <alise> No variable arguments, no optional arguments.
17:20:38 <AnMaster> alise, right, does it have lists?
17:20:51 <alise> Thus, you need no parentheses; upon encountering a word W, look up its arity A; then read A more values (possibly doing calls to other functions and thus reading additional values).
17:20:55 <alise> AnMaster: It's a dialect of Lisp.
17:20:55 <alise> So, yes.
17:21:31 <alise> So, anyway, the only thing here is that "a OP b OP c" is modelled in fixed-arity prefix notation as "OP a OP b OP c ID", where OP is the two-argument implementaton, and ID is the identity element.
17:21:55 <alise> Giving OP a distinctive binary name like "+", and ID some sort of terminating marker on OP's name, produces expressions such as
17:22:00 <alise> + 1 + 2 + 3 +;
17:22:20 <alise> + 1 + length :: "Hello, " :: name :: "!" ::; + 3 +;
17:22:27 <alise> is
17:22:33 <AnMaster> alise, then lacking varargs isn't much of an issue as long as the syntax to declare a list isn't too cumbersome. Something like printf could just be (schemeish syntax, don't know logo): (printf format-string list-with-arguments)
17:22:36 <alise> 1 + length("Hello, " :: name :: "!") + 3
17:22:52 <alise> AnMaster: Have you never used Logo, really?
17:23:00 <alise> Where was your geeky childhood?!
17:23:00 <AnMaster> alise, nop, as I said I don't know the language
17:23:30 <alise> Anyway, a Logo procedure call is obviously just "f x y z".
17:23:46 <alise> repeat 4 [forward 100 left 90] ; produces a square
17:23:53 <alise> This is equivalent to the Lisp code:
17:23:57 <AnMaster> okay, but you see what I'm suggesting anyway?
17:24:00 <alise> (repeat 4 '(forward 100 left 90))
17:24:08 <alise> The list is evaluated, where it is interpreted as code equivalent to:
17:24:13 <alise> (forward 100) (left 90)
17:24:13 <AnMaster> erlang does it's io:format like that, since erlang doesn't have varargs either
17:24:16 <alise> AnMaster: And yes.
17:24:30 <alise> AnMaster: But if the list is quoted then it requires the use of EVAL and such.
17:24:41 <alise> And I'm talking about a purist prefix fixed-arity system without any convenient list construction mechanisms.
17:25:12 <AnMaster> err, eval? I don't quite follow why
17:25:19 <alise> AnMaster: [...] is list quoting
17:25:23 <alise> you can also say
17:25:26 <alise> print [Hello, world!]
17:25:32 <alise> maybe it's string quoting, not list quoting
17:25:32 <alise> oh
17:25:34 <alise> you mean for printf
17:25:52 <alise> AnMaster: because if [+ 2 2, concat "Hello, " "world!"] is actually equal to
17:25:57 <alise> '((+ 2 2) (concat "Hello, " "world!"))
17:26:01 <alise> you'll end up printing a bunch of lists
17:26:03 <AnMaster> well yes that was just an example of why varargs isn't needed very often as long as you have good list support
17:26:08 <alise> so you need to (MAP EVAL ...) it
17:26:35 <AnMaster> alise, wait, is the list function itself is fixed arity too?
17:26:50 <alise> It's not a function, it's syntax, by definition.
17:26:53 <AnMaster> ah right
17:26:57 <alise> And a true fixed-arity system has no LIST function, only CONS and NIL.
17:27:11 <alise> Which is why you might want (not really, but this is just a musing ffs!) a fake binary syntax.
17:27:13 <AnMaster> oh right I see what you mean now
17:27:19 <alise> Hmm, ooh, you can make it even nicer.
17:27:35 <alise> [+( 1 + 2 + 3 )+]
17:27:48 <alise> Let + = two-argument addition, [+( = +, )+] = 0.
17:27:53 <alise> Tadaaa :P
17:28:02 <AnMaster> hm
17:28:51 <AnMaster> alise, that issue with ' "quoting all the way down" can easily be solved in scheme using the list function (or macro? I don't know). But I guess that is harder in logo due to the fixed arity..
17:28:51 <AnMaster> hm
17:29:23 <alise> Besides, QUOTE requires syntax to construct a variable-argument list already, i.e. (A B C D ...).
17:29:31 <alise> Also, ' is syntax; QUOTE is the name of the special form.
17:30:03 <AnMaster> alise, you could of course compute those things first and then put them in the list
17:30:09 <AnMaster> but that might be somewhat annoying
17:32:18 <AnMaster> alise, is there no way in logo to easily create a list without causing quoting of the elements?
17:32:35 <alise> Not that I know of. It's mainly designed for kids drawing little pictures, dude. :P
17:32:44 <AnMaster> hm
17:33:12 <AnMaster> in that case there seems to be no elegant solution to avoid the eval
17:33:27 <AnMaster> at least not any I can think of
17:33:54 <CakeProphet> could you imagine if Babbage's Analytical machine caught on?
17:34:40 <CakeProphet> The Difference Engine is a pretty good novel about such an idea. Though some of the fictional technology is a little impractical in reality.
17:35:30 <AnMaster> I can't imagine _that_ it would. But since you are asking weather I could imagine _if_ it caught on I guess you mean imagining the consequences of it catching on?
17:36:23 <pineapple> %f should let printf print a double, yeah?
17:36:32 <alise> AnMaster: shut up
17:36:37 <alise> pineapple: I think so.
17:36:41 <CakeProphet> yes I do mean the consequences.
17:36:58 <AnMaster> pineapple, yes and float too, since printf in C is varargs it will use the "old" promotion rules for the type
17:37:02 <CakeProphet> yes, I agree it wouldn't have caught on. At least not to the degree of the modern computer.
17:37:06 <AnMaster> meaning any float will be converted to a double
17:37:14 <pineapple> trying to work out why my program is printing it as a float
17:37:29 <AnMaster> pineapple, maybe you need to set precision and such.
17:37:34 <pineapple> hmm...
17:37:43 <AnMaster> check man page I can never remember the details of how you write that
17:37:49 <CakeProphet> the resources required to create a useful Analytical engine are not worth the functionality
17:38:00 <alise> f, F The double argument is rounded and converted to decimal notation
17:38:00 <alise> in the style [-]ddd.ddd, where the number of digits after the
17:38:00 <alise> decimal-point character is equal to the precision specification.
17:38:00 <alise> If the precision is missing, it is taken as 6; if the precision
17:38:00 <alise> is explicitly zero, no decimal-point character appears. If a
17:38:00 <pineapple> thank you
17:38:00 <alise> decimal point appears, at least one digit appears before it.
17:38:02 <AnMaster> something like %<misc stuff>f instead of the normal
17:38:09 <alise> g, G The double argument is converted in style f or e (or F or E for
17:38:09 <alise> G conversions). The precision specifies the number of signifi‐
17:38:09 <alise> cant digits. If the precision is missing, 6 digits are given;
17:38:09 <alise> if the precision is zero, it is treated as 1. Style e is used
17:38:10 <alise> if the exponent from its conversion is less than -4 or greater
17:38:12 <alise> than or equal to the precision. Trailing zeros are removed from
17:38:13 <CakeProphet> though, it's quite remarkable. It's Turing complete before the concept was event invented.
17:38:14 <alise> the fractional part of the result; a decimal point appears only
17:38:16 <alise> if it is followed by at least one digit.
17:38:37 <AnMaster> alise, iirc the precision stuff is on GNU/Linux systems further up in the man page
17:38:37 <pineapple> alise: i can man 3 printf myself, thanks :-)
17:38:47 <Deewiant> %.5f
17:38:50 <AnMaster> but you need to cross reference a lot
17:39:00 <alise> pineapple: remind me not to try and help in future; I certainly wouldn't have known to look for "g"
17:39:25 <AnMaster> <alise> than or equal to the precision. Trailing zeros are removed from
17:39:25 <AnMaster> <CakeProphet> though, it's quite remarkable. It's Turing complete before the concept was event invented.
17:39:36 <AnMaster> I thought it looked strange until I saw it wasn't alise XD
17:39:46 <pineapple> alise: ...my main objection was the length of the paste
17:39:59 <AnMaster> I was briefly wondering why printf() was TC there
17:40:05 <alise> pineapple: Hey, it drowned out AnMaster.
17:40:32 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: hahaha
17:40:42 <CakeProphet> dude printf is a non-deterministic turing machine
17:41:02 <pineapple> it's hard to tell what g does... it prints in either standard or scientific notation, depending on where the significant digits are?
17:41:04 <CakeProphet> excellent efficiency. It always determinizes to the correct state in one step.
17:41:10 <AnMaster> I strongly doubt the printf format string is actually TC
17:41:21 <pineapple> TC?
17:41:29 <AnMaster> TC = turing complete
17:41:37 <pineapple> you need to get out more, honey
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17:41:51 <AnMaster> pineapple, you haven't been here long enough ;P
17:42:06 <alise> pineapple: calling people "honey" is incredibly irritating.
17:42:16 <alise> also, the analytical engine wasn't just Turing-complete, it *invented microcode*
17:42:18 <AnMaster> if I had to guess about the computational class of the printf format string it would be "FSA or less"
17:42:20 <alise> There was to be a store (that is, a memory) capable of holding 1,000 numbers of 50 decimal digits each (ca. 20.7kB). An arithmetical unit (the "mill") would be able to perform all four arithmetic operations, plus comparisons and optionally square roots. Initially it was conceived as a difference engine curved back upon itself, in a generally circular layout,[3] with the long store exiting off to one side. (Later drawings depict a regularized grid layout.)
17:42:20 <alise> [4] Like the central processing unit (CPU) in a modern computer, the mill would rely upon its own internal procedures, to be stored in the form of pegs inserted into rotating drums called "barrels", to carry out some of the more complex instructions the user's program might specify.[5] (See microcode for the modern equivalent.)
17:42:30 <AnMaster> but this is only a hypothesis
17:43:45 <AnMaster> hm, printf always terminates too assuming there are no bugs in the implementation and that there is a trailing zero at the end of the format string and so on.
17:44:13 <AnMaster> so that would put an upper bound on the computational class...
17:44:38 <oerjan> <oerjan> oh and of course there is the even weirder proof that reachability _is_ in NL
17:44:51 <oerjan> oklopol: oh wait that wasn't the weird proof
17:45:04 <oerjan> the weird proof was for showing NL = co-NL
17:45:12 <AnMaster> oerjan, um, NL being?
17:45:20 <alise> AnMaster: you haven't been here long enough
17:45:25 <oerjan> nondeterministic logarithmic space
17:45:27 <AnMaster> alise, touche
17:49:56 <oerjan> the family of languages such that there is a non-deterministic TM with separate input (read-only) and workspace tapes can confirm that a string is in the language
17:50:13 <oerjan> and co-NL are those where the TM can confirm if it isn't
17:50:19 <oerjan> er
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17:51:01 <oerjan> s/$/ using workspace logarithmic in the input size/
17:51:21 <oerjan> *that can
17:51:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't the very word "input" imply that it isn't available for writing to?
17:51:54 <oerjan> AnMaster: sort of, except the simplest TM's use the same tape for input, workspace and output
17:52:17 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah right, you meant like that.
17:53:09 <oerjan> and that is meaningless when you want to check if an algorithm uses less than linear space
17:53:12 <AnMaster> of course C does have writable input, in some sense. See man ungetc
17:53:42 <oerjan> AnMaster: well in the ungetc sense, so do these TMs actually, you can still move back and forth
17:53:53 <oerjan> just not change the contents
17:54:11 <AnMaster> ah right, so reading input does not make it unavailable for reading again?
17:54:15 <oerjan> nope
17:54:19 -!- purr has changed nick to elliottcable.
17:54:21 <AnMaster> oerjan, also iirc with ungetc you can push another char back
17:54:26 <oerjan> ah
17:55:21 <pineapple> AnMaster: i thought it was only 1
17:55:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, I don't think doing is is undef behaviour either.
17:55:44 <oerjan> logarithmic space is sort of the bottom of when it's meaningless to use even _this_ model, since the tape position itself is intuitively a logarithmic size pointer
17:55:52 <oerjan> *meaningful
17:56:04 <AnMaster> pineapple, one char to push back? My man page says "only one pushback is guaranteed" which I interpret as "more may work, but don't depend on it working"
17:56:21 <alise> so more /are/ undef.
17:56:49 <AnMaster> yes, but I haven't checked the C spec, after all the man page is not the spec.
17:58:01 <oerjan> AnMaster: well _one_ ungetc can be simulated by a TM easily, just absorb it into the TM state
17:58:27 <AnMaster> oh and it seems fsetpos, fseek and various other functions discards the result of ungetc according to the C spec
17:58:30 <oerjan> since there are only finitely many possibilities
17:58:54 <alise> DLOGTIME
17:58:54 <AnMaster> of course
17:59:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, I wouldn't be surprised if for many C implementations the ungeted char is stored in some place in the FILE structure
18:00:30 <pineapple> AnMaster: my interpretation is that the second pushback working is undefined
18:00:34 <AnMaster> yep, the C spec says "at least one", and in case of "too many" pushbacks, ungetc shall fail.
18:00:45 * AnMaster tries to locate where it says how ungetc shall fail
18:00:51 <AnMaster> oh by returning EOF it seems
18:01:16 <pineapple> feel free to make a wrapper function if you need more than 1
18:01:41 <AnMaster> pineapple, actually more than one is allowed but either implementation defined or undefined. Not clear to me which
18:01:56 <AnMaster> probably undef indeed
18:03:32 <pineapple> if it was implementation specific, it became so in c99, i guess
18:03:45 <pineapple> k&r makes no mention of it being remotely possible
18:04:27 <oerjan> alise: oh yeah what _is_ that DLOGTIME, i've seen it mentioned but it sounds nonsensicale with a TM - you couldn't even get to all input
18:04:33 <oerjan> *-e
18:04:41 <alise> DLOGTIME is the complexity class of all computational problems solvable in a logarithmic amount of computation time on a deterministic Turing machine. It is the smallest nontrivial class using the resource of deterministic time.[citation needed] It must be defined on a random-access Turing machine, since otherwise the machine does not have time to read the entire input tape.
18:04:41 <alise> DLOGTIME-uniformity is important in circuit complexity.
18:04:41 <alise> The problem of testing the length of the input string can be solved in DLOGTIME, by binary searching for possible input sizes.
18:04:46 <alise> I just decided to quote the lowest class on Wikipedia.
18:04:54 <alise> oerjan:
18:04:55 <alise> It must be defined on a random-access Turing machine, since otherwise the machine does not have time to read the entire input tape.
18:05:14 <oerjan> ok i've not seen the definition of random-access TMs
18:06:01 <oerjan> i saw the mention in relation of circuit complexity too
18:06:03 <alise> nor I; the link is broken.
18:06:13 <alise> presumably there is some instruction that sets the pointer to cell i, given i in the current tape cell.
18:06:14 <oerjan> *to
18:06:27 <alise> my favourite complexity class is co-ALL
18:06:34 <oerjan> alise: except that would require unbounded cell values
18:06:56 <AnMaster> heh it seems that when a file is opened rw in C you can't just do a read operation after a write (or vice verse). The spec says you have to fflush/fseek/fsetpos/rewind (w→r) in between. For r→w you have to use one of fseek/fsetpos/rewind in between unless the last read hit the end of the file
18:06:57 <alise> oerjan: ok then it just has an infinite set of instructions go-i for i \in N
18:07:12 <alise> maybe
18:07:14 <AnMaster> I wonder how many apps actually do that properly.
18:07:23 <oerjan> alise: i'm doubtful :D
18:07:51 <AnMaster> hm POSIX seems to retain this restriction
18:08:48 <oerjan> alise: hm maybe you could have pointer tapes that you can fill in with the positions you want to jump to
18:08:57 <alise> "This is an ALL-complete problem." --"Almanac de Compleiçties, Editioné de 3712", on the Awful Problem.
18:09:00 <oerjan> that should work
18:09:30 <AnMaster> alise, btw you said static linking results in smaller binaries? This is true with uclibc but not with glibc. Test: hello world using write() and _exit().
18:09:33 <alise> (3712 is the year of publication.)
18:09:34 <AnMaster> this shows that glibc sucks
18:09:38 <alise> AnMaster: Of course it's not true with glibc :P
18:10:01 <oerjan> and you only need finitely many such tapes, since you don't have time to fill in more than that anyway :D
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18:10:23 <AnMaster> alise, yeah but with glibc it was like 7 KB (dynamic) 654 KB (static), with uclibc it was about the same for dynamic but only 6.3 KB for static
18:10:36 <alise> AnMaster: 654 kibibytes for write() and _exit().
18:10:42 <AnMaster> alise, nop
18:10:52 <AnMaster> alise, it was from the startup file pulling in lots of stuff
18:10:56 <alise> Ulrich Drepper's engineering has never been witnessed in any other human being. The rest of the human race is thankful for this.
18:10:57 <AnMaster> you know, the code running before main()
18:11:03 <alise> Ulrich Drepper's engineering skill has never been witnessed in any other human being. The rest of the human race is thankful for this.
18:11:22 <AnMaster> alise, with uclibc it still pulled in abort() for some strange reason but not much else extra
18:11:29 <AnMaster> while with glibc I even had strstr there
18:11:32 <AnMaster> I can't think of why
18:11:51 <AnMaster> this is according to nm on the static binaries (before stripping of course)
18:12:29 <AnMaster> alise, of course, uclibc provides it's own startup file. Had to use that anyway or linking would fail.
18:12:29 <alise> is uclibc any good on non-embedded platforms?
18:12:53 <AnMaster> don't really know
18:13:31 <AnMaster> cfunge does link against it I know if you enable C99 math functions (some fingerprints need long double trig functions)
18:14:08 <AnMaster> but iirc it does lack some other stuff, and some things might just be stubs returning some error code
18:14:39 <alise> The landscape of non-glibc C standard libraries is dire.
18:14:47 <alise> dietlibc is wonderful but the license ruins it.
18:14:50 <AnMaster> alise, well there is newlib, and *bsd have their own stuff
18:15:13 <alise> iirc newlib has some fatal flaw for desktop use but I don't recall. Maybe it's fine, but still, it's a bit naff you have to admit.
18:15:19 <alise> The *BSD libraries wouldn't work on Linux.
18:15:30 <AnMaster> how is newlib naff?
18:15:44 <alise> I don't recall; I just remember looking at it and coming to the strong conclusion that it was a bit naff.
18:15:48 <AnMaster> heh
18:16:00 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Arklinux_installer.png <-- Linux for Retards
18:16:12 <AnMaster> XD
18:16:18 <alise> I like how you're then expected to figure out how to work a dropdown menu
18:16:23 <alise> Which is /considerably/ less intuitive.
18:16:31 <alise> Especially if it has a scroll bar.
18:16:58 <AnMaster> hm? all those are drop downs? So in theory once you figured out the first...
18:17:31 <alise> It provides instructions on how to open the drop down menu, but not how to then use it.
18:17:38 <AnMaster> this of course means it excludes the _complete_ retards who don't see any connection between them
18:17:42 <AnMaster> alise, oh XD
18:17:44 <alise> The former is considerably easier to figure out than the latter, especially if the drop-down includes a scrollbar.
18:18:02 <alise> Maybe the instructions change once you click. Ew.
18:18:11 <AnMaster> heh
18:19:30 <alise> Anyway, my ideal Linux libc is diet libc licensed with ANYTHING BUT GPL.
18:19:33 <alise> Also, without this:
18:19:34 <alise> Q: When linking binaries, I get warnings about stdio and printf all the
18:19:34 <alise> time. What gives?
18:19:34 <alise> A: Since the diet libc was written to make writing small programs
18:19:34 <alise> possible, it also tries to assist in the process of seeing causes of
18:19:34 <alise> bloat. Premier causes for bloat are stdio and the printf family of
18:19:35 <alise> functions. The diet libc will also warn you if you still use
18:19:37 <alise> assert() (which is normally not enabled in production code) or if you
18:19:39 <alise> use functions that use static buffers (like gethostbyname and
18:19:41 <alise> friends).
18:20:00 <alise> Actually all this just makes me want to do the ludicrous thing of writing my own libc.
18:20:50 -!- SevenInchBread has joined.
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18:22:13 <alise> But I don't have nearly the right knowledge to do so.
18:23:37 <alise> AnMaster: have you ever used Unix, First Edition?
18:26:48 <alise> "The code of UNIX is divided into 1 files, named u0 through u9 and ux."
18:26:59 <oerjan> <CakeProphet> could you imagine if Babbage's Analytical machine caught on?
18:27:09 <alise> Who cares about organisation!
18:27:16 <oerjan> i believe alternative history scifi has been written about this
18:27:19 <alise> They're written in order of linking and "coreness". :)
18:27:22 <alise> oerjan: yes, as he says in a line or so
18:27:25 <oerjan> s/believe/know/, really
18:27:42 <alise> Interesting thing: First Edition Unix was entirely PDP assembly, no C.
18:27:43 <oerjan> duh
18:28:09 <alise> oerjan: why duh?
18:28:11 <Sgeo_> Wait, which one was the one that was actually programmable?
18:28:24 <alise> Sgeo_: analytical
18:29:11 <alise> C is actually three years older than UNIX.
18:29:24 <alise> One year older than the First Edition publication.
18:29:56 * Sgeo_ has trouble parsing alise's order of events
18:30:00 <alise> It took until 1973 for UNIX to include a C compiler; until late 1973 to rewrite it in C.
18:30:02 <oerjan> alise: *d'oh, perhaps
18:30:05 <alise> Sgeo_: Here we go:
18:31:02 <alise> 1969 - UNIX is created
18:31:03 <alise> 1971 - 1st Edition UNIX published
18:31:03 <alise> 1972 - C created
18:31:03 <alise> 1972 - 2nd Edition UNIX published
18:31:03 <alise> Feb. 1973 - 3rd Edition UNIX published; includes C compiler
18:31:03 <alise> Nov. 1973 - 4th Edition UNIX published; rewritten in C
18:31:29 <Sgeo_> How does that make C older than UNIX and 1st Edition?
18:31:37 <alise> Oops.
18:31:44 <alise> *UNIX is actually three years older than C.
18:32:50 * Sgeo_ says a word that Teal'c often says
18:36:37 <alise> So... anyone want to help me assemble my ridiculous linux distribution? :P
18:38:53 <oerjan> no, but i can help ridicule it
18:38:59 * oerjan runs away
18:40:19 <Sgeo_> Make a Creatures-oriented distro
18:40:28 <alise> Sgeo_: no.
18:40:30 <Sgeo_> THe world needs more themed Ubuntu distros!
18:40:33 <Sgeo_> </sarcasm>
18:40:48 <alise> I will maul you all if you do not do as I say! :|
18:40:52 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: have you ever used Unix, First Edition? <-- no
18:41:00 <AnMaster> what emulators are available for this?
18:41:14 <AnMaster> <alise> "The code of UNIX is divided into 1 files, named u0 through u9 and ux." <-- also that seems like issues with counting XD
18:41:26 <alise> AnMaster: more than just an emulator -- you need a bunch of crazy people who scanned a printout then OCR'd it and fixed up all the issues! (or perhaps even manually typed it)
18:41:32 <alise> AnMaster: ux is some auxiliary system tables or something
18:41:36 <alise> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/
18:41:45 <alise> You can use Simh, like with later Unix editions.
18:41:50 <alise> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/
18:41:52 <alise> *SIMH
18:42:05 <alise> Emulates a PDP-11 running 1st Edition UNIX; glorious.
18:42:08 <AnMaster> maybe some day, not today though
18:42:19 <alise> 3. Type in an ls -l command. You should see something like this:
18:42:19 <alise> total 6
18:42:19 <alise> 43 sdrwr- 2 root 620 Jan 1 00:00:00 bin
18:42:19 <alise> 42 sdrwr- 2 root 250 Jan 1 00:00:00 dev
18:42:19 <alise> 104 sdrwr- 2 root 110 Jan 1 00:00:00 etc
18:42:19 <alise> 114 sdrwr- 2 root 50 Jan 1 00:00:00 tmp
18:42:21 <alise> 41 sdrwr- 7 root 70 Jan 1 00:00:00 usr
18:42:22 * AnMaster is a bit preocupied, thus the late reply
18:42:23 <alise> 4. To change directories, use chdir, e.g. chdir /usr. The only editor installed
18:42:25 <alise> is `ed'. You can find an ed tutorial in notes/edtut.txt.
18:42:27 <alise> 5. To log in multiple times, telnet to localhost port 5555. The system
18:42:29 <alise> is configured to allow 8 remote logins.
18:42:31 <alise> pages/- OCR'd pages from the PreliminaryUnixImplementation document
18:42:33 <alise> rebuilt/- kernel source rebuilt from the OCR'd pages, as asm files
18:42:35 <alise> indeed ocr
18:42:37 <alise> patches/- patches to rebuilt/ files to get kernel to run
18:42:39 <alise> *g*
18:44:31 <Sgeo_> Stargate Atlantis is on YouTube
18:44:45 <Sgeo_> [Possibly not 100% legally, but I don't feel like asking questions]
18:46:49 <alise> Huh. Debian have switched to EGLIBC for real.
18:48:32 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:49:36 <Sgeo_> Wasn't there some core component that was being managed by someone who's a bit of a prick? Actually, libc I think, so I guess that's relevant
18:49:49 <alise> Drepper runs glibc.
18:49:59 <alise> And he's not a bit of a prick, he's an all-out asshole.
18:50:07 <alise> The switch to eglibc was mostly because of Drepper.
18:56:01 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
18:56:25 <alise> Nobody wants to help :( :P
18:56:46 <alise> http://blog.aurel32.net/wp-content/sam_keyboard.jpeg
18:56:50 <alise> Very efficient keyboard layout.
18:56:54 <alise> "Actually he explained me he tried to convert the QWERTY keyboard into a DVORAK one, but some of the keys can not be swapped because of the trackpoint. And he is using it as a QWERTY keyboard."
19:01:37 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:02:25 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
19:02:35 <CakeProphet> In the novel Perdido Street Station, by British author China Miéville, analytical engines similar to Babbage's serve as "brains" for the robotic constructs of the city of New Crobuzon. One such engine even develops sentient thought due to a recursive algorithmic loop.
19:02:39 <CakeProphet> ha.
19:02:52 <CakeProphet> I've been writing sentient AI all these years and didn't even know it.
19:04:47 <alise> (define (omega) (omega))
19:04:50 <alise> Singularity; thank me later, guys.
19:07:49 <CakeProphet> it would be crazy if the Analytical Engine had a mechanism for memory addresses.
19:10:00 <AnMaster> alise, does that mean the next ubuntu version will use eglibc?
19:10:07 * AnMaster tries to remember what the differences were
19:10:18 <AnMaster> and did eglibc merge changes from upstream? I forgot
19:10:29 <alise> I think it already does use eglibc, then.
19:10:36 <alise> yes, it does
19:10:54 <AnMaster> indeed, just checked too
19:11:19 <AnMaster> so how did it differ, I don't remember. Something about ARM support was it? Was there anything else than that?
19:12:00 -!- alise has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:18:16 -!- alise has joined.
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19:40:37 <alise> hi coppro
19:40:52 <coppro> hi
19:40:58 <alise> coppro: Under Canadian broadcast regulations, product placement is considered a form of payola and is strictly forbidden. Real brand names can't be shown on locally-produced TV shows. Dramas, comedies, and even cooking and home improvement shows have to block out the brand names of the items they use or replace them with Brand X.
19:41:03 <alise> what the hell is up with that, Token Canadian?
19:41:39 <coppro> alise: Welcome to the CRTC
19:41:44 <coppro> please check your sanity at the door
19:41:53 <alise> That is your new name, by the way - Token Canadian.
19:42:13 <alise> coppro: personally I'd take the WHATWG's advice and leave it at the door, in case it would be damaged inside.
19:44:54 <AnMaster> hm I like that Canadian law in a way.
19:45:11 <alise> AnMaster: no, it's crazy
19:45:30 <coppro> banning paid product placement is good.
19:45:31 <AnMaster> refreshing break from the constant focus on consumerism
19:45:41 <coppro> banning inadvertent product placement is bad
19:45:51 <oklopol> how do you know it's not?
19:45:51 <AnMaster> coppro, well okay, you have a point there
19:46:01 <alise> AnMaster: Yes: the government should create laws to ban anything that has a consumerist bent.
19:46:11 <oklopol> errrr
19:46:11 <coppro> oklopol: that's the tricky bit
19:46:19 <alise> Good idea. How sane. Let's let the government legislate us a happy life.
19:46:21 <oklopol> i was asking about the keyboard :D
19:46:31 <oklopol> let's see what it looked like i was asking...
19:46:36 <oklopol> forgot i'd scrolled up
19:46:37 <AnMaster> alise, strawman
19:46:54 <alise> Not a strawman.
19:47:06 <alise> "[This censorship law is good because it is a] refreshing break from the constant focus on consumerism[.]"
19:47:23 <alise> i.e., the government is doing good by legislating a refreshing break from the constant focus on consumerism.
19:47:26 <AnMaster> alise, would you agree with what coppro said though?
19:47:34 <alise> i.e., what I said.
19:47:54 <alise> Inadvertent product placement should definitely be legal.
19:48:05 <alise> Paid product placement I'm not sure about. I think it's fine, to be honest.
19:48:17 <alise> It's not like there aren't other, better ways to advertise your product.
19:48:23 <alise> Product placement is usually very blatant anyway.
19:48:24 <AnMaster> I think paid product placement should be banned, but inadvertent might be okay
19:48:51 <oklopol> these questions don't have answers
19:48:55 <alise> Why should paid product placement be banned?
19:48:56 <oklopol> shut up
19:49:27 <oklopol> :DSDFD
19:50:14 <AnMaster> alise, because to most people it doesn't seem blatant. Rather it is a sneaky way in many cases. Which people might not realise is product placement. I'm not talking about people of #esoteric here but "your average man on the street" rather.
19:50:31 <alise> Either product placement is blatant or it goes unnoticed.
19:50:45 <alise> Nobody says "Oh, I really want to buy this brand name product because I saw it in this TV show without realising it!"
19:51:03 <oklopol> people don't look at brands
19:51:06 <oklopol> no one cares about brands
19:51:08 <alise> Besides, you can't really mandate away stupid people.
19:51:10 <oklopol> you look at the product
19:51:30 <oklopol> NO
19:51:36 <AnMaster> alise, indeed. It goes like "hm, I need a such as such, which of the brands on this shelf in the supermarket should I select? Hm I seen that one a lot, not sure where, meh I'll take that one."
19:51:45 * oklopol is angry and wants to fight
19:51:50 <oklopol> GRRR
19:51:53 <alise> AnMaster: No, no it doesn't go like that.
19:51:54 <oklopol> i'm not really angry
19:52:04 <alise> AnMaster: I am pretty sure you just made that up to support your viewpoint and have no actual evidence of it happening.
19:52:30 <oklopol> yeah people often have evidence of things
19:52:38 <oerjan> alise: actually i've vaguely read something like what AnMaster said
19:53:03 <oklopol> oerjan! let's talk about complexity theory k?
19:53:08 <oerjan> oklopol: k!
19:53:08 <oklopol> no i don't really wanna
19:53:11 <oklopol> i actually wanna sleep
19:53:12 <AnMaster> alise, no I didn't make it up, I heard it from someone who works as a teacher (at university level). Teacher for future journalists and such.
19:53:14 <oerjan> darn
19:53:15 <oklopol> but i can't
19:53:26 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, a teacher of journalists. I am now convinced...
19:53:34 <AnMaster> alise, well, ads stuff is in that area
19:53:47 <oklopol> lol university people are idiots
19:54:31 <AnMaster> alise, also see what oerjan said
19:54:45 <coppro> I'm inclined to side with AnMaster
19:54:47 <AnMaster> alise, rather, I suggest you back up your claims.
19:54:49 <coppro> people are open to subtle influences
19:55:26 <coppro> hearing about or seeing a brand a lot increases recognition, which increases chances people will buy it. There is definitely a 'I will buy the one I feel most familiar with' effect
19:56:52 <AnMaster> alise, well?
19:57:44 <alise> AnMaster: Considering oerjan's memory is notoriously unreliable, and I don't believe some random person any more than you, I shall ignore his message.
19:57:51 <alise> And YOU were the one who made the claim.
19:57:57 <alise> Please look up "null hypothesis", "burden of proof".
19:57:58 <AnMaster> alise, and what about what coppro?
19:58:08 <AnMaster> alise, you made the claim it wasn't so
19:58:21 <oklopol> alise: i actually just remembered i've read a book called "people see people buy" that says exactly what AnMaster, oerjan and coppro are saying
19:58:34 <alise> If I wanted to debate this, I'd debate it with coppro who isn't a raging fucking idiot.
19:58:35 <oklopol> and i've actually conducted 7 studies on this
19:58:38 <AnMaster> alise, I think the burden of proof is shifting to you now
19:58:48 <coppro> As a allism-afflicted individual, it definitely affects me and I'm conscious of it.
19:58:57 <alise> My claim is exactly the same as before: none. You are the one making the claim. Shut the fuck up.
19:59:19 <coppro> your claim is that our claim is false
19:59:42 <oklopol> is it?
19:59:53 <oklopol> he's claiming there's no reason to claim it, not that he knows it's false
19:59:57 <alise> AnMaster: Do you say to atheists, "you made the claim that it [religion] wasn't so; the burden of proof is shifting to you now [since you have argued a lot]"?
20:00:19 <AnMaster> alise, I refer you to coppro's last line.
20:00:21 <alise> If you do, well, you're even more of an idiot than previously suspected (probable); if not, the same applies here.
20:00:25 <oklopol> "<alise> AnMaster: No, no it doesn't go like that."
20:00:28 <AnMaster> also: if you prefer to be delusional... then be so
20:00:29 <oklopol> actually maybe she did
20:00:33 <alise> ...what?
20:00:37 <alise> You just randomly claimed me to be delusional there.
20:00:57 <AnMaster> alise, I did provide source, you did not accept it. *shrug*
20:01:19 <AnMaster> I'm just not going to bother about this.
20:01:21 <alise> Talking to you may be a corridor starting at happiness and ending in facepalm napalm, but inside, it is filled with despairing hilarity.
20:01:35 <alise> I am currently half-way, and I cut through the floor.
20:01:36 <coppro> In any credible theology debate, the atheists do in fact debate the religious' point of view. They don't say 'but you're wrong' and just leave it at that.
20:01:39 <alise> Goodbye.
20:01:42 <AnMaster> alise, argue with coppro or something
20:01:49 <alise> No, I don't want to argue the point.
20:01:53 <alise> I made an offhand remark.
20:02:06 <alise> You have turned it into an enlightening lesson in illogic.
20:02:14 <alise> I'm just not sure who it's enlightening for.
20:02:29 <coppro> lol
20:03:08 <alise> If I really did want to debate the point, do you really think I'm stupid enough to debate it with you?
20:03:18 <alise> Interesting debates in here are usually had with ais523 or coppro; never with you.
20:04:06 <alise> And since I can't help being sucked up into this idiocy: your "source" was an unnamed person who teaches journalists.
20:04:19 <alise> That is not any sort of study on people's buying habits, that's just some random unnamed person who happens to teach at university.
20:05:22 <AnMaster> alise, however the other persons in here did provide other sources.
20:05:28 <AnMaster> Also see what coppro said above:
20:05:30 <AnMaster> <coppro> In any credible theology debate, the atheists do in fact debate the religious' point of view. They don't say 'but you're wrong' and just leave it at that.
20:05:43 <coppro> For the record; I did not provide any sources, merely asserted a point and added personal experience to it.
20:06:30 <AnMaster> now, I'm going elsewhere, not going to continue discussing this. Watching paint dry is more productive. (Not that I will do that.)
20:06:58 <alise> coppro: Are you talking to AnMaster or me?
20:07:04 <alise> If me, my argument is solely with AnMaster.
20:07:13 <alise> I imagine that were I to debate it with you it would be a lot more of a cogent affair.
20:09:32 <AnMaster> back for a bit.
20:10:16 <alise> Rather a lifetime of being provided outright, irrefutable rebuttals of everything I believe by ais523, oerjan and coppro than one second debating with AnMaster.
20:10:27 <AnMaster> alise, I could look up sources, but why should I? I see no point, I know I'm right anyway, I don't have to "win" the argument. *shrug*
20:10:46 <AnMaster> you could easily check this yourself
20:10:54 <alise> P.S. You're crazy.
20:10:55 <alise> Love,
20:10:56 <alise> alise
20:11:00 <AnMaster> and you completely ignored the line of coppro I quoted above
20:11:04 <AnMaster> _completely_
20:11:17 <alise> Okay!
20:11:58 <coppro> alise: tbh, you're acting really weird today
20:12:14 <AnMaster> there we go, no more annoyance from that source.
20:12:18 <alise> coppro: Howso?
20:12:22 <alise> AnMaster: Finally.
20:12:38 <coppro> alise: you're trolling him
20:12:41 <coppro> or were
20:13:08 <alise> coppro: What do I say to AnMaster that isn't trolling? Like, ever?
20:13:34 <coppro> alise: I am not going back into the logs to look
20:13:45 <alise> coppro: So how is that really weird?
20:13:51 <alise> I don't think I'm acting significantly abnormally.
20:14:28 <coppro> alise: it's uncharacteristic of you to argue ad hominem
20:14:53 <alise> I remember saying he was an idiot, but I don't remember there being any actual "argument" to speak of.
20:15:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:15:12 <alise> More a meta-argument about whether AnMaster's attempted "argument" was valid or not.
20:19:00 <alise> coppro: But I don't particularly take any discussion involving AnMaster seriously.
20:19:20 <alise> I believe you could easily see, by examining logs, that I'm usually a lot more civil and logical when talking to others (not the same thing as civil and logical, though :P).
20:19:42 <alise> That's mostly because I've stopped bothering trying to convince AnMaster of anything; anything I say to him is out of mere exasperation.
20:22:42 <oklopol> as if anyone ever convinces anyone of anything ever
20:22:43 <oklopol> ever
20:22:46 <oklopol> on irc
20:22:58 <alise> coppro has had the odd effect of making me more moderate sometimes.
20:23:04 <alise> Never all the way to the other side, though. :-)
20:23:19 <oklopol> well isn't coppro some sort of politician
20:23:19 <coppro> I've done the opposite too
20:23:30 <alise> To me?
20:23:31 <alise> When?
20:23:46 <coppro> We have a big argument-turned-flamewar shortly after I discovered this place
20:23:49 <coppro> oklopol: I've started dabbling in it inadvertently
20:24:11 <alise> coppro: Was that the one that ended up in both of us addressing large, overwrought insults to each other?
20:24:18 <coppro> I think so
20:24:25 <alise> (that basically boiled down to "You're childish!" "Yeah, well, so are you.")
20:24:27 <coppro> yeah
20:24:34 <alise> I don't actually remember what it was about, though. :P
20:24:37 <coppro> me neither
20:25:11 <coppro> was that on IP? I remember we had a civil argument about that too, but I'm not sure if that was the only one
20:25:15 <coppro> (arrrr)
20:25:58 <alise> IP?
20:26:03 <alise> oh
20:26:05 <alise> intellectual property
20:26:09 <alise> coppro: I don't believe it was
20:26:24 <alise> IIRC we've only had two arguments about that, the huge one and one offhand one quite recently.
20:27:13 <coppro> yeah
20:28:12 <coppro> incidentally, I'm now disappointed I didn't find out about and join the PPCA earlier, because (unsurprisingly) I'm relatively moderate among members when it comes to my views
20:28:22 <coppro> (with regards to IP, anyway)
20:29:05 <alise> I dislike the Pirate Party because they basically backed down on what a party with that name should be like; they want five-year commercial copyright iirc.
20:29:16 <alise> Or was it indefinite commercial copyright, 5-year noncommercial copyright?
20:29:34 <alise> they have most definitely toned down their rhetoric to become more accepted
20:30:15 <coppro> the PPCA (which, while affiliated with international Pirate Parties, is not the same as them) is voting today on whether the platform is 10 years copyright, or 5 years + 10 years if registered
20:30:43 <alise> It's worse than Sophie's choice!!!!!!
20:31:11 <coppro> also, I think there's a thing about the name
20:31:33 <alise> Personally if I had to pick an option without using numbers not already there, I'd pick 5 years copyright.
20:31:34 <coppro> in the PPCA at least, pirate != trying to steal music
20:31:42 <alise> Registering copyright. Pfft.
20:31:43 <alise> coppro: I know that.
20:31:51 <alise> coppro: Piratbyrån, etc.
20:32:07 <coppro> I don't know much about the international ones, to be honest
20:32:10 <alise> But Piratbyrån, for instance, are quite thoroughly anti-copyright, and the Pirate Party is an offshoot; they have diluted the name.
20:32:20 <alise> coppro: The Pirate Party is not the original pirate organisation, FFS.
20:32:23 <alise> Piratbyrån is not a political party.
20:32:32 <coppro> ah
20:32:39 <alise> Piratbyrån ("The Pirate Bureau") is a Swedish organization (or think tank) established to support people opposed to current ideas about intellectual property — by freely sharing information and culture. Piratbyrån wishes to give another point of view about spreading information as opposed to certain lobby groups.
20:32:40 <coppro> ok
20:32:49 <coppro> makes sense
20:32:55 <alise> The Pirate Bay is not affiliated with Piratbyrån but stemmed from it; same for the Pirate Party.
20:33:25 <alise> The Pirate Bay diluted the Piratbyrån's message by making it about yarr copyright infringement; so has the Pirate Party, by making it about moderate copyright reform.
20:33:30 <alise> <coppro> in the PPCA at least, pirate != trying to steal music
20:33:34 <alise> Please don't say "steal".
20:33:44 <coppro> you know what I meant
20:33:57 <coppro> there is no accurate term for it
20:34:11 <alise> Copyright infringement.
20:34:35 <coppro> the funny thing is it's not even that sometimes
20:35:26 * alise spits on the Pirate Bay trial
20:35:29 <coppro> however, it's just odd to be in a situation where, in a group of people, I'm one of the strongest /defenders/ of copyright
20:35:37 <coppro> (relative to others)
20:36:17 <alise> One day, Lord help me, I will smash the copyright out of your mind.
20:36:18 <alise> One day!
20:37:04 <coppro> that said, I think they'll pick the 10-year option, and I'll stick behind it in principle; I just want to make sure we don't do something stupid
20:38:00 <alise> coppro: in a hypothetical post-capitalist society, would you support copyright?
20:38:27 <coppro> define post-capitalist
20:39:05 <alise> No, that would make the answer too easy.
20:39:12 <alise> Okay, let me rephrase.
20:39:18 <alise> coppro: In a hypothetical post-scarcity and thus post-capitalist society, would you support copyright?
20:39:47 <coppro> I would support moral rights but not economic ones
20:40:45 <coppro> economic copyright is a crutch, to be sure, but I think it's one that is necessary to an extent
20:40:53 <alise> Moral rights, define.
20:42:07 -!- SevenInchBread has joined.
20:43:07 <oklopol> that would make the question too easy
20:43:10 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
20:43:12 <oklopol> no wait that doesn't make sense
20:43:16 <oklopol> my sense of symmetry fails me
20:43:37 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:44:37 <coppro> alise: rights such as right to anonymity, pseudonymity, or having one's name associated with the work.
20:44:54 <alise> Right to anonymity? Like, right not to be whistleblown? Pretty sure that doesn't exist in practice.
20:45:00 <alise> (whistleblown as to your identity)
20:45:30 <alise> coppro: Okay, now imagine a post-ego society. All individuals in the society have no desire for egotistic rewards.
20:45:37 <coppro> alise: No, it's the right to not have your name associated with the published work
20:45:40 <alise> Thus, they have no desire to be credited from an it-makes-me-happy point of view.
20:45:47 <coppro> someone can break the anonymity
20:45:51 <alise> Do you still support the right to have one's name associated with a work?
20:45:53 <coppro> but the work can't carry the name if you don't want it
20:46:22 <coppro> alise: no such world would exist
20:47:16 <alise> coppro: I have presupposed it so. I never said the inhabitants were stock homo sapiens sapiens units.
20:47:23 <alise> So, your answer?
20:47:29 -!- waga has joined.
20:47:32 <waga> hi
20:47:51 * waga found a dead dolphin on the beach
20:47:54 <waga> :(
20:47:57 <oklopol> :(
20:47:58 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:48:01 <oklopol> that's sad
20:48:06 <waga> yep
20:48:08 <coppro> :(
20:48:16 <coppro> I'd still support the right. If the individuals have no desire for egotistic rewards, then as a matter of societal convention, they may choose not to invoke the right.
20:48:17 <oklopol> did you give it one last hug and throw it back in the ocean
20:48:47 <waga> it was almost eaten by crabs and flys
20:48:56 <alise> coppro: Why have a right that, by definition, nobody has any desire for, and never will?
20:49:56 <coppro> alise: If it was physically impossible for the desire to invoke it to exist, then the existence of the right is an academic question. If there exists any possibility of its use, though, I would support it.
20:51:08 <alise> coppro: We are to assume that nobody in this society would ever have any desire to have their name attributed to a work.
20:51:25 <alise> Thus, they might do it, but only for some academic purpose or on a whim, and they would care not one bit if someone removed the attribution.
20:51:30 -!- augur has joined.
20:51:39 * waga uploads some photos of the dolphin so that you can see
20:51:45 <coppro> in that case, as I said, the question is academic
20:51:53 <alise> coppro: It is academic: so answer it.
20:52:36 <coppro> why? It's irrelevant in that society if that right does or doesn't exist
20:53:12 <waga> http://bayimg.com/JANoAaacD
20:53:13 <coppro> That's like asking if men should have the right to abortion.
20:53:19 <waga> here is the photo
20:53:27 <oklopol> i don't think it is
20:53:38 <waga> i will add a bigger photo
20:53:40 <oklopol> well okay maybe a bit
20:53:40 <waga> then
20:53:45 <oklopol> lol no waga
20:53:52 <oklopol> i was talking to c
20:53:56 <waga> oh
20:54:38 <oklopol> waga: that doesn't look very sad, because it just looks like a big lump to me.
20:54:46 <oklopol> i can't really make out the dolphin
20:54:51 <waga> it is
20:55:08 <waga> there aren't many dolphoins left in the black sea
20:55:28 <waga> it is very polluted and heavilly fishinged
20:55:41 <waga> http://bayimg.com/jAnODaAcD
20:55:56 <waga> Its great even to see fish in it.
20:56:10 <waga> I once saw 2 dolphins in bulgaria
20:56:14 <waga> but none in romania
20:56:17 <waga> only this one
20:56:53 <waga> I send an email to an organization
20:57:00 <waga> I hope it would help...
20:57:10 <coppro> F SEV - BLA
20:57:30 -!- tombom has joined.
20:57:51 <waga> `ls
20:58:01 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.7833 \ wunderbar_emporium
20:58:06 <oklopol> would help how?
20:58:14 <oklopol> help reanimate that dolphin?
20:58:18 <waga> no
20:58:33 <waga> just kill fishermen
20:58:33 <alise> <coppro> why? It's irrelevant in that society if that right does or doesn't exist
20:58:40 <alise> But it's relevant to me, now, what your position is.
20:58:45 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:58:51 <waga> `cd /
20:58:52 <coppro> alise: please stop trying to convince me to break your strawman
20:58:52 <HackEgo> No output.
20:59:05 <coppro> I have no position with regards to your questions
20:59:07 <coppro> *question
20:59:17 <alise> coppro: It was going to track backwards to make a point, but if you won't play, fine.
20:59:18 <waga> `rm -r *
20:59:19 <HackEgo> No output.
20:59:22 <alise> Philosophers must hate talking to you.
20:59:24 <waga> `rm *
20:59:26 <HackEgo> No output.
20:59:26 <alise> waga: Won't work, don't bother.
20:59:29 <waga> hehe
20:59:33 <oklopol> waga: do you kill fishermen?
20:59:33 <waga> just courious
20:59:34 <coppro> alise: what point would that have been?
20:59:36 <waga> no
20:59:39 <waga> but i would
20:59:42 <oklopol> coppro: no you'll never know
20:59:44 <oklopol> *now
20:59:47 <alise> coppro: It wouldn't make sense without your answer.
20:59:55 <coppro> well, my answer wouldn't make sense either way
20:59:59 <waga> `perl -v
21:00:00 <HackEgo> \ This is perl, v5.10.1 (*) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 40 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2009, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit. \
21:00:09 <waga> `man perl
21:00:10 <HackEgo> No output.
21:00:11 <coppro> if I say yes, then I've just supported something pointless. If I say no, I've just weakened my position
21:00:15 <waga> `man cd
21:00:16 <HackEgo> No output.
21:00:21 <waga> `man man
21:00:22 <HackEgo> No output.
21:00:32 <alise> coppro: Sheesh, I give up.
21:00:36 <waga> `gcc
21:00:39 <HackEgo> No output.
21:01:02 <waga> `touch qw.pl
21:01:03 <HackEgo> No output.
21:01:48 -!- Gregor-L has joined.
21:01:50 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:01:52 <waga> `echo print "hello"; > qw.pl
21:01:53 <HackEgo> print "hello"; > qw.pl
21:02:05 -!- Gregor-L has changed nick to Gregor.
21:02:11 <waga> `perl qw.pl
21:02:13 <HackEgo> No output.
21:02:51 <waga> `sudo
21:02:52 <HackEgo> No output.
21:03:13 <waga> `cat cube2.jpg
21:03:14 <HackEgo>
21:03:42 <waga> `cat netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz
21:03:43 <HackEgo>
21:04:21 <waga> Cameroon 1 - Denmark 2
21:04:23 <waga> :(
21:05:26 <alise> Caring points: Football fans 1 - Everyone else 0
21:10:58 -!- waga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:11:08 -!- waga_ has joined.
21:11:10 <waga_> hi
21:11:18 <waga_> back
21:11:25 <waga_> my battery died
21:12:22 <alise> sheesh nobody wants to help my clearly perfect distro efforts :)
21:13:56 <coppro> tell me when you have a package manager
21:14:18 <alise> coppro: *configuration manager
21:14:24 <alise> my plans are rather ridiculously generic in that area
21:14:28 <coppro> okay, tell me when you have one of those then
21:14:39 <alise> coppro: right now my current focus is seeing how far I can push using a non-standard libc and static compilation
21:14:54 <coppro> fair
21:15:04 <coppro> you should use clang by default too!
21:15:09 <alise> coppro: I am considering that.
21:15:25 <alise> coppro: I am also considering http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/.
21:16:24 <alise> coppro: I will probably use newlib or uclibc, but I'd rather use diet libc; unfortunately, its GPL license makes this illegal.
21:18:41 <alise> coppro: Basically, the idea is to make a completely unconventional distro that lets you forget that Linux is underneath and just maintain the system as simply as possible; allowing one to use minimalist stuff in place of the usual rubbish. And also one that I can maintain myself without too much trouble, distro-wise.
21:19:01 <coppro> that would be cool
21:19:05 <alise> So extremely simple init system (perhaps even just a shell script), "package manager" replaced by a more generic concept allowing finer-grained control over configuration and the like,
21:19:20 <alise> tiny libc, everything that can be statically linked is,
21:19:56 <alise> kernel uses Brain Fuck Scheduler, TuxOnIce and is stripped of most everything; module support provided as a separate kernel package only for using things like the nvidia drivers
21:20:30 <alise> stuff like hal wiped out; hopefully udev made less futzy
21:20:45 <coppro> bonus points if you can invent some sort of dynamostatic linking that gets the space savings of dynamic linking without the rest of its idiocies
21:20:47 <alise> coreutils are bsd or other similar minimalist set, not gnu
21:21:09 <alise> coppro: Ah, but static linking is only larger with a gigantically bloated libc like glibc.
21:21:19 <alise> With uclibc or newlib, the binaries are smaller than dynamically-linked glibc binaries.
21:21:34 <coppro> alise: That's why I said 'without the idiocies'
21:21:51 <coppro> there is definitely redundant code that can be elimintaed
21:21:51 <alise> coppro: Sure, a program that uses many functions from a large library will be bigger... but these aren't so common, and besides, you probably have the disk space if you're using such a "bloated" program ;)
21:21:57 <coppro> true
21:22:11 <alise> IMO dynamic linking just causes too much problems in this language-agnostic Linux world.
21:22:18 <coppro> it does
21:22:20 <alise> Static linking leaves some duplication on disk -- there are tactics to share the code in memory --
21:22:32 <alise> and yes, it's imperfect, but so is Linux in almost every way!
21:22:42 <waga_> Are you guys here those who have done the cool esoteric langs from wikipedia/eso langs wiki? (eg: unlambda,thue,3code,lolcode,the cooking one, taxi, brainfuck, etc)
21:22:44 <alise> the focus of the distribution is basically to make linux usable without going insane.
21:22:53 <alise> waga_: Yes; we're the official IRC channel of http://esolangs.org/.
21:23:02 <alise> Except for lolcode.
21:23:06 <alise> We hate lolcode intensely.
21:23:27 <alise> Urban Muller, creator of brainfuck, is not present here; but daniel b cristofani, brainfuck programmer extraordinaire, is (dbc).
21:23:27 <waga_> why?
21:23:46 <alise> waga_: it's not esoteric, it's just a hodge-podge language designed by people who don't know languages, with a slight veneer of stupid memey syntax.
21:23:48 <waga_> Wierd name, "Urban"
21:24:03 <alise> Wierd is an esoteric language, but not a word; you're thinking of "weird".
21:24:17 <alise> And he's Swiss.
21:24:29 <alise> It's actually Urban Müller.
21:24:40 <alise> waga_: Ever heard of Aminet, that Amiga archive?
21:24:43 <alise> He created that.
21:24:46 <waga_> ok
21:24:47 <waga_> wierd
21:25:14 <waga_> the funny thing is that there are more langs then users
21:25:15 <alise> waga_: *weird.
21:25:19 <alise> Yes, that's amusing.
21:25:27 <waga_> so it means everyone made about 20 langs
21:25:37 <waga_> °^°
21:25:46 <alise> coppro: I guess you could categorise my distribution as "no Stallman, no Drepper" and I guess you'd be right but it's more about the technology than the people.
21:26:08 <coppro> no objections
21:26:54 <alise> Basically I want a can-it-even-be-called-Linux distribution that you can almost entirely fit into your head; any problem should have an obvious source because there can be only one, and there should not be a ton of stuff going on in the background, breaking subtly, that you don't know about.
21:27:02 <waga_> how many langs have you made?
21:27:12 <alise> I'm all for wonderful systems with layers of abstraction and purity and automagic, but the fact is that automagic Linux, in practice, today, is broken Linux.
21:27:18 <alise> And bloated Linux to boot.
21:27:21 <alise> waga_: I've made about 4.
21:27:25 <waga_> wpw
21:27:27 <waga_> wow
21:27:48 <alise> coppro: Although I might have to allow the dynamic linker to be *present*; otherwise, you can't run such programs as, say, Perl.
21:27:53 <waga_> And also, how many os-es have you made? (or started)
21:27:54 <alise> Which is, you know, not ideal.
21:28:05 <alise> waga_: Weeeeeeeeeell.
21:28:07 <coppro> alise: Isn't the dynamic linker stored in the program?
21:28:10 <alise> I wrote a tiny little broken kernel once, but that barely booted.
21:28:21 <alise> I have my long-term, life-encompassing mega OS, but that's vaporware in the strongest sense.
21:28:26 <alise> So the only real OS I'm doing is this distro.
21:28:34 <alise> coppro: ...*head explodes*
21:28:41 <alise> coppro: Wait, were you being serious or making a static linking joke?
21:28:42 <waga_> hehe
21:28:42 <alise> I assumed the latter.
21:28:46 <waga_> my os is bacterix
21:29:00 <alise> waga_: Can you remove it with antibiotix?
21:29:01 <waga_> it supports some basic dos ints
21:29:06 <waga_> nope
21:29:14 <waga_> its just bacterix
21:29:15 <alise> So it's a resistant strain, then.
21:29:16 <coppro> alise: both, sort of. I know some of the processing is actually stored in the ELF, but there is, of course, ld.so
21:29:22 <waga_> it supports fat12
21:29:24 <waga_> °°
21:29:31 <alise> coppro: Oh, yeah, did I mention I was seeing if I could get rid of ELF?
21:29:33 <alise> Yeah... I'm crazy.
21:29:40 <coppro> glwt
21:29:44 <alise> There done ain't be nothin' wrong with a.out!
21:29:50 <alise> coppro: glwt?? WHAT CAN THIS MEAN
21:29:54 <coppro> good luck with that
21:30:30 <alise> coppro: In fact... I don't think Linux actually supports dynamic linking with a.out.
21:30:35 <alise> coppro: Well hey, ELF files are bloated :P
21:30:57 <coppro> Isn't that more the compiler's fault?
21:31:06 <alise> Yes, but the format too, I guess.
21:31:16 <alise> I suppose ELF is one of the things I should just accept; it's not even particularly egregrious.
21:31:33 <alise> But to get into this "Just remove... everything" mindset, you need to be an extremist at points.
21:31:57 <augur> according to a friend, sex while a woman is having her period is a "blood bath"
21:31:59 <augur> just fyi
21:32:06 <alise> augur: You have straight friends???
21:32:48 <alise> coppro: One thing I'm undecided on -- maybe you could supply nice opinions -- should it be for x86 or x86-64? x86-64 has needlessly large pointers for a lot of things, and a minimalist distribution would go well with non-recent hardware, especially on things like slightly older ThinkPads, but OTOH, with x86 there's the memory limit.
21:32:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
21:33:01 <coppro> alise: why not both?
21:33:03 <alise> However: I forget the name, but there's a hack to access more than 2 gigs memory total on x86.
21:33:06 <alise> The nice thing is:
21:33:15 <alise> x86-64 just legislates this hack with some differences.
21:33:20 <alise> So x86-64 isn't any cleaner!
21:33:30 <alise> x86-64's only actual advantage is that a single process can access more than 2 gigabytes of RAM.
21:33:43 <alise> Which is, admittedly, a large advantage.
21:33:44 <alise> But...
21:33:56 <alise> coppro: I'm not sure you realise that I have to maintain and /build/ all these packages.
21:34:00 <alise> One architecture will be hard enough!
21:34:28 <coppro> alise: well, build 32-bit first since more computers can run it, and then hopefully the experience will carry over
21:34:32 * waga_ discovered "Choon"
21:34:40 <alise> coppro: Alright.
21:34:57 <alise> coppro: Hmm... do most distros strip executables by default?
21:35:00 <alise> I don't think they do.
21:35:01 <alise> Why don't they do that?
21:35:04 <coppro> I don't know. They should.
21:35:04 <waga_> wtf?????
21:35:08 <waga_> the famous Tomasz Grysztar
21:35:14 <alise> coppro: Pretty sure Arch doesn't, at least.
21:35:21 <waga_> has also made an eso lang?
21:35:22 <coppro> Ubuntu does
21:35:28 <coppro> at least, gcc is stripped
21:35:31 <coppro> I'll test random others
21:35:46 <alise> waga_: Really? Which?
21:36:10 <waga_> Challenge
21:36:14 <waga_> it is named
21:36:16 <alise> Idea for an esolang: LOLCODE, changing the syntax to use normal words and brackets.
21:36:22 <coppro> of my /usr/bin, 4 are not stripped
21:36:28 <alise> Hilarious, it will be, for it will be exactly a regular programming language!
21:36:33 <alise> coppro: Fair enough; Debian, yes?
21:36:38 <coppro> Ubuntu
21:36:55 <alise> Okay.
21:37:11 <alise> coppro: Also... I'm considering removing /usr.
21:37:19 <alise> Please don't hurt me, this is the most support I've got from one person so far :P
21:37:28 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:38:32 <coppro> explain
21:38:41 <alise> /usr/x --> /x
21:38:59 <alise> No /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin; just /bin.
21:39:10 <alise> (why does sbin even exist? Just don't give normal users privileges to execute them.)
21:41:01 <waga_> Gimme an eso lang idea
21:41:03 <waga_> please
21:42:16 <oklopol> if i had an idea i'd make the lang myself
21:42:19 <oklopol> oh wait
21:42:41 <oklopol> i probably wouldn't, but i'd think i'll do it someday
21:42:43 <oklopol> anyway ->
21:42:45 -!- oklopol has quit.
21:42:47 <coppro> alise: it prevens partioning all that stuff separately. In a minimalist distribution, eliminating them might make sense
21:43:30 <waga_> a friend was thinking of the FU** language
21:43:43 <waga_> where you had to fu** the screen the clrscr
21:43:47 -!- alise has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:43:57 <waga_> and some other stuff
21:44:51 -!- alise has joined.
21:44:58 <alise> Sorry.
21:45:10 <coppro> did you see my last message?
21:45:20 <alise> 13:38:59 <alise> No /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin; just /bin.
21:45:20 <alise> 13:39:10 <alise> (why does sbin even exist? Just don't give normal users privileges to execute them.)
21:45:20 <alise> <alise> coppro: Also, just /lib too, accordingly.
21:45:21 <alise> <alise> Rationale: Who really puts them on separate drives? Yes, AnMaster, I know that; who else?
21:45:21 <alise> <alise> Or, in other words, who that is actually a real person does that?
21:45:32 <alise> coppro: I have now; and responded to it before I even saw it!
21:45:48 <coppro> alise: :P
21:46:16 <alise> coppro: Also, I'll use lilo by default; it's actually very capable and can do things GRUB cannot (for instance, it can boot to JFS).
21:46:26 <alise> And if the kernel updater automatically runs lilo nobody gets hurt.
21:46:43 <alise> Plus, you know, it /is/ smaller and less crappy than GRUB :P
21:47:32 <waga_> If I'd make an eso lang, would i get a page on the wiki?
21:47:39 <waga_>
21:47:40 <alise> waga_: anyone can write a page on the wiki.
21:47:48 <alise> which is why it's so full of crap.
21:48:09 <waga_> then
21:48:16 <waga_> would someone make it
21:48:18 <waga_> ?
21:48:20 <alise> coppro: Another advantage of static linking: Executables start much faster.
21:48:32 <waga_> or should i do it
21:48:33 <alise> waga_: if it was any good and popular. So no: you'd have to write it yourself.
21:48:48 <oerjan> waga_: we're _mostly_ to lazy to do other people's work beyond simple typo fixing :D
21:48:53 <oerjan> *too lazy
21:48:53 <alise> *too
21:48:55 <alise> :D
21:48:58 <alise> *trope namer*
21:49:01 <waga_> so it has to by
21:49:10 <waga_> very popular
21:49:11 <waga_> :(
21:49:15 <alise> coppro: uclibc or newlib, provide opinions!
21:49:20 <alise> waga_: just write it yourself, lazy butt
21:49:22 <coppro> alise: no clue
21:49:29 <waga_> so am i alloud
21:49:33 <alise> waga_: yes.
21:49:36 <waga_> cool
21:49:46 <alise> our wiki has no rules except ones that Grue sets and we only obey because he's irritating when he gets annoyed
21:49:47 <waga_> i would have my name somewere
21:49:50 <waga_> first time
21:49:52 <waga_> :D
21:49:59 <alise> coppro: I'd rather use dietlibc, but the gpl makes that impossible :(
21:50:20 <waga_> i'm gonna make 100 langs so that i will have my name everywhere and become famous =))
21:50:26 <coppro> alise: yeah, gpl :(
21:50:37 <oerjan> alise: well not quite. i just recently made a rule that the languages on the language list have to have links
21:50:37 <alise> coppro: the guy licensed the code gpl so that microsoft doesn't steal it, seriously
21:50:51 <oerjan> i got fed up of looking at all the red ones
21:50:52 <coppro> tinfoil hat much?
21:50:52 <alise> coppro: the gpl in this case has the effect of FORBIDDING BINARY DISTRIBUTION OF ANY NON-GPL CODE LINKED WITH DIET LIBC.
21:51:00 <alise> coppro: well I think he was being tongue in cheek but still
21:51:08 <alise> even rms tells you not to use the gpl for a library!
21:51:28 <alise> coppro: this is all very sad because the code is very small, fast and high-quality
21:52:36 <alise> init will probably be a tiny C program that runs a shell script -- /etc/init.start or something -- then listens to signals that signal various actions.
21:52:47 <oerjan> i almost deleted that hapyli link yesterday because the author was slow at making the actual article
21:52:57 <alise> For instance, "# kill 1" would run /etc/init.stop, then shut down the system.
21:53:45 <alise> "# kill -USR1 1" might run /etc/init.stop, then reboot.
21:54:00 <alise> You could have a shutdown(1) like so:
21:54:37 <alise> well
21:54:41 <alise> a shutdown(1) would just be
21:54:43 <alise> kill 1
21:54:46 <alise> and a reboot(1) just
21:54:48 <alise> kill -USR1 1
21:54:54 <alise> and you'd just run them as root
21:55:14 <alise> coppro: "# kill -USR2 1" might, say, run /etc/init.stop, then run /etc/init.start again
21:55:18 <alise> effectively doing a reboot-less restart
21:55:30 <waga_> Wich would be more help full: doing a bf interpreter in 20 langs, adding stuff to 3code, making my lang?
21:55:44 <alise> waga_: not the former, we have enough interpreters.
21:56:07 <alise> coppro: I /could/ do asynchronous server starting, restarting, etc., but if not much stuff is started at boot, and what is started starts fast, who needs that?
21:56:23 <alise> (besides, you could do asynchronicity manually with the power of &)
21:57:03 <waga_> then tell me a simple lang to make 20 interpreters for it
21:57:05 <waga_> :D
21:57:10 <waga_> i do it for free
21:57:15 <alise> waga_: No. :P
21:57:18 <waga_> or sweetoeware
21:57:30 <waga_> *sweetieware
21:57:47 <coppro> alise: What will be your shell?
21:58:14 <alise> coppro: Possibly the port of OpenBSD ksh.
21:58:20 <alise> Possibly something bloated like zsh.
21:58:21 <alise> Who knows?
21:58:26 <alise> Almost certainly not bash.
21:58:41 <cheater99> anyone know where the name 'space cadet keyboard' comes from?
21:59:06 <alise> cheater99: I think its futuristic appearance. Not sure.
21:59:06 <alise> brb
21:59:32 <waga_> gimme an idea please
21:59:42 <cheater99> i haven't asked about who doesn't know :p
21:59:46 <coppro> a Diplomacy-based language
22:00:05 <oerjan> coppro: what a ridiculous idea. this means war!
22:05:39 * uorygl ponders what his name would be in Finnish.
22:06:56 <oerjan> Örygälli
22:07:13 <oerjan> hm wait g is rare isn't it
22:07:17 <uorygl> That's not my real name. :)
22:07:46 <oerjan> Tännäri Suotta
22:08:12 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:08:59 <uorygl> Tännäri is good. I'd like to translate my last name, though, instead of transliterating it.
22:09:31 <oerjan> what does swett mean, anyhow
22:09:59 <coppro> his family exercises a lot and can't spell
22:10:18 <uorygl> Herttainen might be a nice translation.
22:11:35 <oerjan> wie hertzlig
22:13:58 <uorygl> I know a guy named Kaj Sotala. Apparently, "sotala" means "place of war".
22:14:57 <oerjan> subtle
22:19:43 <alise> uorygl: your name is not really tanner swett, I am pretty sure.
22:19:46 <fizzie> There are 51 people with that surname; we aren't a that warlike people.
22:20:24 <uorygl> alise: of course not. My name uses capital letters.
22:20:37 <alise> It is not Tanner Swett, either.
22:20:51 <uorygl> No?
22:21:01 <alise> Or, maybe it is; you're listed as that on LinkedIn.
22:21:04 <alise> It is a very strange name, though.
22:21:22 <uorygl> It's a rather unusual name.
22:21:51 <waga_> Please give me an idea. I am idea hungry!
22:22:07 <uorygl> But it's not as unusual (to an anglophone) as Tännäri Herttainen!
22:22:12 <oerjan> waga_: <coppro> a Diplomacy-based language
22:22:48 <uorygl> waga_: a cellular automaton based on Go. A board game based on Conway's Life.
22:22:59 <alise> uorygl: But I can't figure out what language or anything Tanner Swett originates from.
22:23:15 <uorygl> My first name and last name come from English and English, respectively.
22:23:35 <oerjan> tanner is a profession, isn't it
22:23:38 <uorygl> "Tanner" is a common noun in English, after all.
22:23:41 <uorygl> No, it's a vocation. :P
22:23:52 <oerjan> um there is a difference?
22:24:13 <oerjan> swett on the other hand, is pure madness
22:24:22 <uorygl> Hm, Wikipedia says that a profession is a type of vocation.
22:24:47 <uorygl> Anyway, I think a profession requires lots of specific training and carries prestige.
22:25:08 <alise> Tanner Sweat.
22:25:13 <uorygl> Tanners aren't very prestigious, and I doubt many universities offer degrees in tanning.
22:25:29 <oerjan> it's that darn smell, i tell you
22:25:36 <oerjan> (iirc)
22:25:43 <alise> There are universities offering degrees in astrology...
22:25:46 <alise> :P
22:26:02 <oerjan> a stellar education
22:26:16 <uorygl> Hm, interesting: http://genealogy.familyeducation.com/surname-origin/swett?detoured=1
22:27:02 <alise> uorygl: It's a nice name and you should be proud of it. Someone with a nice name should study at a good university!
22:27:08 <alise> ...which is a completely irrelevant mixing of topics, but there you go.
22:27:14 <oerjan> you swarthy person you
22:27:18 <uorygl> From Dutch, "nickname for a dark-haired or swarthy person", or "Americanized spelling of Slovenian Svet, a nickname from the adjective svet ‘holy’ (most likely)".
22:27:48 <uorygl> alise: do you have a particular reason for suggesting that I study at a good university?
22:27:49 <fizzie> If you want to translate the "tanner" part too, that'd be probably "nahkuri"; there are 158 people with that as surname, but it's not really a usual given name here.
22:28:01 <alise> uorygl: You were discussing it with us before; moving university.
22:28:11 * uorygl nods.
22:28:13 <alise> And I googled your name and saw the university you're at listed on LinkedIn, which reminded me.
22:28:17 -!- zzo38 has joined.
22:28:32 <alise> You are holding up a nondescript cup with lettering in your LinkedIn picture. How mysterious.
22:29:13 <uorygl> I wonder where that cup is now.
22:29:15 * uorygl checks his bedroom.
22:29:20 <zzo38> I added some FAQ in IRC, please tell me of any mistake or omissions.
22:29:51 <alise> zzo38: But... where...
22:29:55 <alise> uorygl: What does it say?
22:30:11 <zzo38> alise: Host zzo38computer.cjb.net port 194 issue the command HELP FAQ
22:30:11 <waga_> How can i do IF in bf?
22:30:26 <waga_> I squeezed my brains but i still cant think of it
22:30:28 <zzo38> (You can use this command regardless of whether or not you have already logged in)
22:30:31 <uorygl> alise: just a moment.
22:30:35 * uorygl goes to his bedroom again.
22:31:12 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
22:31:15 <zzo38> Also, does Freenode have ALIS? I thought I read somewhere that it does, but I am unsure?
22:31:17 <fizzie> [ executed if current cell was nonzero [-]]
22:31:40 <uorygl> alise: it says, "2008 ARML Mug Problem: For integral x > 0, compute the number of pairs of distinct points A and B on y = x^2 where the slope of line segment AB is 2008."
22:31:58 <waga_> for example if cur cell is 32
22:32:03 <waga_> what can i do?
22:32:21 <waga_> to check if no is 32
22:32:21 <uorygl> fizzie: so, got any good universities up there?
22:33:09 <alise> uorygl: Wave University is meant to be good, as much as I despise that name, I think.
22:33:26 <fizzie> >+< -32 [ >-< [-] ] >[ executed if current cell was 32 ]
22:33:33 <alise> I forget the Finnish name. fizzie?
22:33:55 <fizzie> (That one assumes non-bignum wrapping cells.)
22:34:00 <alise> Aalto.
22:34:17 <fizzie> (That one assumes non-bignum wrapping cells.)
22:34:21 <fizzie> alise: Aalto, yes. You're faster than my phone-fu.
22:34:25 <alise> (That one assumes non-bignum wrapping cells.)
22:34:31 <alise> fizzie: Is it good?
22:34:39 <alise> uorygl: You know, it'd be easier to apply to a good university in the US. :P
22:34:50 <alise> uorygl: Alternatively, I suggest applying for Oxford; if my friend can get in, anyone can!
22:35:09 <uorygl> Unfortunately, my transcript is looking pretty icky right now.
22:35:25 <uorygl> My grades for my first year: C+, A-, A.
22:35:34 <fizzie> I have no personal experiencs with any others; I believe it's reasonably good compared to other Finnish places, but certainly there's a lot of stupidity around.
22:35:38 <alise> I guess that is not so good.
22:35:42 <uorygl> Indeed.
22:35:54 <alise> uorygl: On the other hand, dammit, my friend got in!
22:36:05 <alise> (Note: Friend is not actually as stupid as I am implying.)
22:36:51 <uorygl> Did your friend apply as a transfer student?
22:37:11 <alise> Well, no.
22:37:16 <alise> :P
22:37:27 <oerjan> waga_: you might want to check out the Brainfuck Algorithms page on the wiki
22:37:39 <waga_> thanks
22:37:47 <uorygl> fizzie: so you're going (or went) to Aalto and found it pretty good?
22:37:55 <waga_> A Brainfuck Olympiad would be nice. ^^
22:37:55 <alise> uorygl: he is an Aalto fellow.
22:37:57 <alise> well, a tkk fellow
22:38:01 <alise> but it am become Aalto
22:38:17 <alise> and poor fizzie am left with no clue of what to do in face of nameness \o/
22:38:21 <oerjan> waga_: there has been some brainfuck golfing
22:38:36 <alise> On 1 January 2010, Helsinki University of Technology became a part of Aalto University and was renamed 'the Aalto University School of Science and Technology'.
22:38:39 <alise> this is why we cannot have nice things ;-;
22:38:41 * uorygl replaces alise's language unit with a spare and sends the old one off for repair.
22:38:50 <fizzie> I officially graduated still from TKK, something like three months before the Wave officially started.
22:38:51 <alise> uorygl: sniff
22:38:54 <oerjan> also a couple of brainfuck duel game variations
22:39:01 <alise> fizzie: yay
22:39:04 <uorygl> I'm a poet, and unaware of this fact.
22:39:14 <zzo38> We never had A- at the school I went to, but I generally got good marks
22:39:24 <oerjan> i am unaware, and poetic of this fact
22:39:29 <fizzie> But my doctoral degree, if I ever get it done, will be from Aalto. :/
22:39:36 <uorygl> Huh.
22:39:37 <alise> uorygl: I have just learned from my friend that Oxford is organised into homosexual cliques, and if your subjects coincide with the one he is in he can get you into Oxford.
22:39:43 <alise> uorygl: What do you wish to apply for?
22:39:45 <zzo38> Except, that in one class, there was not good enough to mark but the teacher knows I am good at it, so put "NM" and "SG"
22:40:13 <uorygl> I hope those don't stand for "never mind" and "stargate".
22:40:20 <uorygl> alise: what subject, you mean?
22:40:38 <alise> uorygl: Yes.
22:41:01 <zzo38> uorygl: They don't stand for those things. "NM" is "no mark" (meaning the teacher did not assign a mark; please note this is not the same as zero), "SG" is "standing granted" (meaning you passed regardless of mark)
22:41:03 <uorygl> Math, computer science, linguistics, economics... something in that general area.
22:41:05 <alise> uorygl: Disadvantage of the Aalto University School of Science and Technology: you have to be in a place called "Espoo".
22:41:10 <alise> I mean, really, place names don't get more immature.
22:41:20 <alise> uorygl: He studies mathematics and philosophy, so you may be in homosexual luck!
22:41:21 <fizzie> "Never mind" and "*so* good" were my guesses.
22:42:27 <fizzie> alise: It's right next to the Helsinki border, though, so when not doing something physical (lectures, exams) you can easily be in the hell-sin-city instead.
22:42:46 <alise> fizzie: Not a fan of Helsinki, I see.
22:43:05 <uorygl> alise: so how does this homosexual thing work?
22:43:09 <alise> fizzie: ...also, lectures are physical?
22:43:16 <uorygl> (No, I'm not asking you to explain homosexuality to me. :P)
22:43:21 <alise> uorygl: Well, you see, when a person loves other people of their same gender and not of others...
22:43:47 <alise> uorygl: Basically, in return for being inside a clique with inherent homosexuality, you are granted near-omnipotent powers.
22:44:04 <alise> These near-omnipotent powers are restricted in one way: you can only grant admissions to people who apply for the subjects covered by your clique.
22:44:07 <fizzie> alise: I did live there for 22 years or so; I have nothing against the place in general, just don't think the name's any better.
22:44:25 <alise> Oxford is an organisation of homosexual cliques; they call them 'colleges' in front of the townspeople.
22:44:31 <uorygl> alise: huh. So your friend can simply accept me into Oxford?
22:44:32 <alise> (When they're not murdering them.)
22:44:44 <fizzie> alise: And physical in the sense that there's no widespread practice of webstreaming them, so you'll have to be present.
22:44:48 <alise> uorygl: In a very homosexual way, yes.
22:45:25 <uorygl> Huh.
22:45:40 <uorygl> So, can I expect an acceptance letter in the mail soon? :P
22:46:53 <alise> uorygl: Oh, sorry, new news from my friend: "I can't."
22:47:01 <alise> I guess you're just not homosexual enough. Try again next year.
22:47:14 <uorygl> How do you know how homosexual I am?
22:47:17 <alise> He's giving excuses, now: "The interviews take place when I am not there. Hence it will be difficult for me to work my homosexual magic."
22:47:20 <alise> Do not be disheartened.
22:47:26 <alise> uorygl: If you were sufficiently homosexual, he would have accepted you.
22:47:39 <uorygl> How does he know how homosexual I am?
22:47:46 <alise> uorygl: He's near-omnipotent, remember?
22:47:51 <uorygl> Oh, okay.
22:47:53 <fizzie> Is this the "gaydar" thing I've been hearing about?
22:48:07 <uorygl> Well, drat. I'll just have to go to Aalto.
22:48:12 <fizzie> Supposedly they have some sort of paranormal detection ability.
22:48:13 <alise> fizzie: They prefer to call it the "homosexual resonance frequency detector and reporter instrument".
22:48:52 <coppro> so... gaydar?
22:49:35 <alise> If you must...
22:49:47 <zzo38> How many people in here are homosexual anyways?
22:49:57 <alise> Not enough to create an Oxford clique, that's for sure!
22:50:07 <zzo38> And how many people in here asexual?
22:50:12 <alise> Probably not many.
22:50:18 <alise> There aren't any asexual cliques, anyway, as far as I know.
22:50:29 <alise> Asexuality is not known to yield superhuman power.
22:52:26 <alise> "I already saw the Alcor page. It's what I would call non-sequitar." I should probably stop reading uorygl's blog now; this is bordering on internet-stalking.
22:53:03 <uorygl> I have a blog?
22:53:21 <alise> http://axiomofomega.blogspot.com/ Apparently.
22:53:23 <alise> Or at least LinkedIn thinks so.
22:53:30 <fizzie> A non-sequitar, the most noble of all string instruments.
22:53:34 <alise> You last posted in Febuary.
22:53:37 <alise> *February
22:53:38 <uorygl> Wow, it has 6 posts?
22:53:41 <alise> XD
22:53:50 <alise> uorygl: Can I just note that Cameron is an idiot? >_>
22:54:04 <uorygl> alise: absolutely!
22:54:09 <alise> Consider it noted.
22:54:57 <zzo38> But I am asexuality! (Yielding superhuman power in this case is unimportant. If it is required, there is better ways (?))
22:55:07 <alise> zzo38: You... ARE asexuality? Like, the concept itself?
22:55:26 <uorygl> alise: do you have any ideas on how to get him to stop being an idiot?
22:55:47 <zzo38> alise: Sort of
22:55:50 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
22:55:53 <alise> uorygl: A LART/Cluebat combination should work.
22:56:02 <fizzie> alise: Perhaps the personification of? The Greek pantheon has many of those.
22:56:18 <alise> Also, what's the correctly agglomerated form of asexual and philia?
22:56:23 <alise> i.e., the philia of being attracted to asexual people.
22:56:38 <uorygl> I'm guessing "asexualiphilia".
22:56:40 <zzo38> Is it a word "asexualphilia"?
22:56:49 <fizzie> Saxofonilia.
22:56:53 <zzo38> Maybe look up in Wikipedia see if they know
22:56:55 <uorygl> Since "asexual" is theoretically from the Latin adjective "asexualis".
22:57:03 <uorygl> Chop off the s, there you go.
22:57:05 <alise> zzo38: Tried that.
22:57:12 <alise> Then I'm asexualiphilic!
22:57:20 <alise> It is a disappointingly unrequited condition!
22:58:05 <zzo38> Did you check the FAQ that I wrote in the IRC, yet?
22:58:17 <alise> If zzo38 *is* asexuality, we could just call it zzo38philia.
22:58:25 <alise> Though that's attraction to the very concept of asexuality.
22:58:28 -!- augur has joined.
22:58:53 <alise> What port again?
22:58:57 <alise> *port, again?
22:59:19 <zzo38> Port 194
22:59:26 <zzo38> Host zzo38computer.cjb.net
22:59:30 <zzo38> Command is HELP FAQ
22:59:34 <uorygl> Attraction to the very concept of asexuality is "asexualitaphilia"!
22:59:38 <alise> "being put in cyro-stasis will forever scar your relatives and family. Perhaps you are a sociopath and don't care, but others will notice a lack of a funeral and a lack of closure surrounding your pre-mature "death". It's hard to think of someone being dead and being able to move past it if there is a chance they could be still alive. This false hope will undoubtedly harm your families and relatives greatly."
22:59:39 <alise> WJW.
22:59:53 <uorygl> WJW?
23:00:02 <alise> Wow Just Wow.
23:00:06 * uorygl nods.
23:00:27 <alise> zzo38: It works.
23:00:49 <alise> * faq2 :FAQ2: There aren't any channel operators on my channel, now what?
23:00:49 <alise> * faq2 :
23:00:49 <alise> * faq2 :It is working correctly as intended. There is nothing to fix.
23:00:49 <alise> * faq2 :
23:00:49 <alise> * faq2 :End HELP
23:00:50 <alise> Heh.
23:00:59 <alise> zzo38: I would suggest making this a HelpBot, instead of building it into the server.
23:01:04 <alise> *in to
23:01:16 <Gregor> alise: What is that quote from? :P
23:01:17 <zzo38> Yes, I can see it works but I am asking if there are any questions omitted or any mistakes in the text?
23:01:18 <alise> uorygl: So what's the attraction to the very concept of pedophilia?
23:01:24 <alise> Gregor: http://axiomofomega.blogspot.com/2010/02/this-is-part-of-extended-discussion-on.html
23:01:28 <alise> Gregor: I recommend you do not read it.
23:01:35 <Gregor> I will proceed to not read it.
23:01:39 <alise> Gregor: It contains an extremely high quantity of stupidity from everyone except from Ian and Tanner.
23:01:42 <uorygl> alise: pedophilophilia.
23:02:01 <alise> So philophilia is the attraction to philias.
23:02:08 <alise> And what is the plural of philia? Is philia even a word?
23:02:10 <uorygl> alise: what a coincidence--Ian and Tanner are the people there who read Less Wrong.
23:02:23 <uorygl> I think the plural is "philiata".
23:02:30 <Gregor> alise: That quote is just amusing because it seems to basically be "doing anything differently from ridiculous traditions will make Jesus cry so DON'T DO IT"
23:02:35 <uorygl> That's just a guess, though.
23:02:37 <zzo38> I do not want to add HelpBots and stuff like that. If you need additional commands you can write server scripts.
23:02:37 <alise> Who's Ian on Less Wrong?
23:02:42 <uorygl> Hariant.
23:02:57 <uorygl> Nope, the plural of philia is philiai.
23:03:10 <alise> Gregor: he basically spends the entire thread saying there is "No Science", with that capitalisation, in cryonics, despite some very concrete rebuttals; and basically claiming it's a scam without justification, making ~100 assumptions, almost all of them untrue, in the procses, then amending them when he is proven wrong.
23:03:17 <alise> It's like a trainwreck, but sentient!
23:03:23 <zzo38> In fact, FORCENICK is a server script.
23:03:24 <Ilari> Esolangs... If one has "asymptotically complete" language with sizable memory space and one wants to extend it to have infinite memory, what would be some bizarre and hard-to-use way?
23:03:31 <alise> uorygl: philiata is nicer.
23:03:39 <alise> So it is philophilia, not philiaiphilia, right?
23:03:39 <uorygl> Yes, but it's wrong. Do not use it.
23:03:43 <uorygl> Right.
23:03:54 <alise> uorygl: Hey, it's English, I can do what the fuck I want, there's no consistency in this language anyway :P
23:03:55 <zzo38> (Also, for the HELP comamnd I used the same response format as even Freenode uses)
23:04:07 <alise> "Polyamory" even mixes two different languages, for fuck's sake!
23:04:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:04:48 <Gregor> http://i.imgur.com/Bx44U.png laaaawlwtf
23:04:49 <zzo38> alise: So does English
23:04:57 <alise> Touche.
23:04:58 <uorygl> alise: so does "dancing". "danc-" is from Old French, "-ing" is from English.
23:05:16 <alise> Gregor: Spoiler: It's not actually Michael Jordan.
23:05:19 <uorygl> alise: anyway, you wouldn't want to be like those guys who say "mansexual", would you? :P
23:05:29 <Gregor> alise: It's pretty wtf whatsoever :P
23:05:32 <alise> Man...sexual?
23:05:35 <Gregor> "mansexual"
23:05:36 <Gregor> Wow.
23:05:44 <alise> "I just find old movies a bit boring." -- @michaeljordan
23:05:50 <alise> "I had a dream last night about lots of cats and enormous rabbits in a barn." -- @michaeljordan
23:05:57 <uorygl> And the counterpart to "mansexual" is--you guessed it--"femsexual".
23:06:03 <alise> "I just don't understand why England still has a Queen." -- @michaeljordan
23:06:04 <alise> etc.
23:06:07 <Gregor> uorygl: No. No I didn't guess it.
23:06:07 <alise> uorygl: No, I didn't guessed it.
23:06:09 <alise> XD
23:06:17 <Gregor> :P
23:06:32 <Gregor> I was thinking "wymynsexual"
23:06:51 <alise> I was thinking womansexual or something.
23:07:03 -!- micahjohnston has joined.
23:07:10 <waga_> hi
23:07:13 <uorygl> Hi, Micah Johnston.
23:07:13 <Gregor> Maybe "wymynsyxyyl" is more appropriate.
23:07:17 <micahjohnston> hi
23:07:19 <waga_> is this http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Minimal functional?
23:07:32 <waga_> can you do anithing in it?
23:07:47 <uorygl> Front it. "wömänsexyäl"
23:07:48 <alise> waga_: It's not TC.
23:07:59 <alise> "The author designed it to be minimal, but Turing-complete." is more a statement about the author than the language.
23:08:17 <Gregor> alise: That's mean and yet so true :P
23:08:33 <alise> This is not a language. Any language must have 3 well defined items: 1) Gentle introduction - tutorial, necessary for understanding the idea; 2) A formal definition - a description necessary to reduce number of interpretations; and 3) A working compiler, interpreter, or whatever environment to try it out with examples. I propose a simple small table for each language specifying links for each of those items. The author can fill it or leave it unfilled, but
23:08:33 <alise> the reader would be able to see if any intelligent effort was made to invent and develop the language. --Oleg 03:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
23:08:36 <Gregor> Also, waga_: Beware of misusing the term "functional" like that, as "functional" in PL does not mean "it functions"
23:08:55 <alise> (Later:
23:08:57 <alise> You are absolutely wrong. A language also needs functors. 20:17, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
23:08:58 <alise> )
23:09:00 -!- micahjohnston2 has joined.
23:09:05 <Gregor> alise: laaawl
23:09:09 <alise> [[Uh, guys, it's not a joke. OK? Minimal is not a joke! --Alegend 14:38, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
23:09:09 <alise> But neither is category theory! Unless MacLane was putting us on. --Ørjan 19:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)]]
23:09:10 <Gregor> Uh oh, Micah's got his hands on the clonomat.
23:09:17 <alise> Clonoscopy.
23:09:35 <Gregor> alise: ... boo.
23:09:40 <alise> :)
23:09:43 <uorygl> Gregor: hiss?
23:09:43 -!- micahjohnston has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:09:49 -!- micahjohnston has joined.
23:09:59 <alise> ...so he cloned himself, the original died, and was then revived?
23:10:25 <uorygl> alise: just continue thinking until it makes sense.
23:10:28 <Gregor> There's some degredation in cloning though, and he's on clone 2 now ...
23:11:15 <alise> uorygl: Nope, still doesn't make sense.
23:11:25 <uorygl> alise: then you haven't thought for long enough.
23:11:37 <alise> uorygl: I see what you're trying to do here...
23:11:40 <alise> TAKE UP ALL MY MENTAL CPU TIME!
23:11:51 <uorygl> Yes, but only on one of your mental cores.
23:12:05 <uorygl> You have, like, a bunch of them; you can spare one.
23:12:52 <alise> No, I'm actually running on a PDP-11.
23:13:02 <alise> I evolved out of the ADVENTURE game.
23:13:23 <alise> Someone left a dissociated press program running on a few too many files... and thus, me.
23:13:37 -!- micahjohnston2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:13:42 <alise> Turns out that C is just Fortran in the wrong order. Or the other way around, depending on who you ask.
23:13:46 <oerjan> Ilari: see: malbolge unshackled
23:13:51 <alise> Fortran brains aren't very effective, though... I rewrote myself soon after.
23:13:53 <alise> That was painful.
23:14:09 -!- waga_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:14:14 <uorygl> Programming languages should be made such that short things go before long things.
23:14:30 <Gregor> Here's my current multicore philosophy: We are currently at the absolute worst possible amount of parallelism in our computers. The physical universe is purely parallel, and sequential behavior is just a human construct for understanding, but our computers are no longer sufficiently sequential to do that well, nor are they sufficiently parallel to use a radically different, physics-oriented approach to programming. Instead, they're at
23:14:30 <Gregor> some middle zone where we have to write sequential code and then chop it up. Yukk.
23:14:42 <Gregor> (Why yes, that had no relevance on anything :P )
23:14:52 <alise> Gregor: You'd like the Connecton Machine.
23:14:52 <zzo38> uorygl: No, it should be put in logical order, in some cases that means the short things would go first, sometimes it doesn't
23:14:54 <alise> A lot.
23:15:01 <uorygl> This is bad because it has a whole bunch of short things at the end: blah (blah (blah (blah (blah blah (blah (blah (blah blah) blah (blah (blah blah))))))))
23:15:01 <micahjohnston> wasn't the cm still imperative?
23:15:01 <cheater99> anyone know where the name 'space cadet keyboard' comes from?
23:15:06 <alise> I bet you will now reply saying that you do.
23:15:19 <alise> micahjohnston: Yes, but considering the tiny ability of any one core to do thing, it wasn't really used like that.
23:15:24 <micahjohnston> ok
23:15:33 <alise> (Didn't one core operate on one byte of memory, or something? Or was it even a bit? at a time.)
23:15:43 <micahjohnston> was there a central clock?
23:15:46 <micahjohnston> if there weren't it'd be awesome
23:15:54 <uorygl> Gregor: the physical universe is not purely parallel.
23:16:14 <micahjohnston> look at circuits
23:16:15 <Ilari> Does Malbolge unshackled have anything more esoteric than essentially using numbers as pointers?
23:16:17 <uorygl> A purely parallel processor would suck; the results of each computation wouldn't be able to depend on the results of the previous one.
23:16:28 <Gregor> uorygl: "purely parallel" is a meaningless term :P
23:16:29 <alise> micahjohnston: I don't think there was a central clock, no.
23:16:38 <Gregor> uorygl: Which is why I felt free to use it :P
23:16:39 <alise> Only many, many CPUs using communicaton junctions.
23:16:43 <alise> And fuck, Feynman worked on it!
23:16:45 <uorygl> Oh, okay. :P
23:16:47 <alise> Gregor: You do like it, don't you.
23:16:54 <Gregor> alise: It's pretty awesome :P
23:16:56 <micahjohnston> I though the cm was based more on "mapping across arrays", i.e. each processor had the same instructions but different data, than about networks like circuits
23:17:03 <Gregor> alise: The problem is of course we have no useful programming model for it.
23:17:30 <alise> Gregor: Hey, Feynman coded some parallel quantum algorithm in it.
23:17:40 <Gregor> My point exactly :P
23:17:40 <alise> ...therefore nobody else can Q.E.D.
23:17:53 <alise> Gregor: Also, he used a parallel dialect of BASIC he invented on the spot. :P
23:18:03 <Gregor> Wow, that's fucking awesome.
23:18:06 <Gregor> Seriously.
23:18:09 <Gregor> That - is - fucking - awesome.
23:18:58 <alise> Gregor: Want to know why?
23:19:02 <alise> He didn't know any language apart from BASIC.
23:19:21 <micahjohnston> I have been thinking about a reactive processor that the cm is a teeny bit similar to
23:19:24 <alise> Also, he worked out using some crazy physics stuff that they only needed N slots in their communication hubs or something.
23:19:27 <alise> But they had N+M.
23:19:39 <alise> (using more conventional methods to work it out)
23:19:47 <alise> They went along with their safer idea. Turns out they didn't have the resources to do N+M or something.
23:19:52 <alise> N, of course, worked fine.
23:19:56 <alise> This is a man who only knew BASIC.
23:20:04 <alise> Feynman is just incomprehensibly awesome.
23:20:31 <zzo38> I also consider Richard Feynman to be a hacker.
23:21:04 <alise> In the axe-wielding sense.
23:21:21 <zzo38> No, that isn't what I meant.
23:21:30 <alise> It was what I meant!
23:21:32 <coppro> he was banned from being near safes when they were being opened
23:21:36 <zzo38> If you want to see what I meant, perhaps read the book "Surely you are Joking, Feynman!"
23:21:56 <zzo38> coppro: That is one thing he did. But not the only
23:22:29 <alise> Gregor: If you want to read more about Feynman being a fucking awesome bastard wrt the Connection Machine, look no further: http://www.longnow.org/essays/richard-feynman-connection-machine/
23:23:03 <alise> [[ When we finally picked the name of the company, Thinking Machines Corporation, Richard was delighted. "That's good. Now I don't have to explain to people that I work with a bunch of loonies. I can just tell them the name of the company." ]]
23:25:00 <oerjan> Ilari: well they are 3-adic numbers, i.e. not integers. also it's quite awkward to use arbitrary many trits, i think. as if _i_ know how to program it.
23:25:55 <oerjan> although they _are_ used as pointers, that may be the most normal part of them.
23:26:30 <micahjohnston> is this irc channel affiliated with esolangs?
23:26:39 <uorygl> micahjohnston: yes, it is.
23:26:40 <oerjan> micahjohnston: certainly
23:26:44 <micahjohnston> ok
23:27:00 <alise> micahjohnston: it's associated with just about anything but esoterica.
23:27:04 <alise> the topic is intentionally misleading.
23:27:17 <micahjohnston> what's esoterica
23:27:39 <oerjan> micahjohnston: most of the stuff in the topic :D
23:27:43 <alise> [[He was excited by the results. "Hey Danny, you're not going to believe this, but that machine of yours can actually do something [useful]!" According to Feynman's calculations, the Connection Machine, even without any special hardware for floating point arithmetic, would outperform a machine that CalTech was building for doing QCD calculations. From that point on, Richard pushed us more and more toward looking at numerical applications of the machine.]]
23:27:50 <uorygl> Crystal healing, astrology, oracles, and so on.
23:27:56 <micahjohnston> lol
23:28:04 <oerjan> but _not_ turing machine oracles, mind you
23:28:11 <alise> Gregor: Do you think building a massively-parallel processor as a hobby is possible today? ... it seems like you wouldn't be able to get small enough, low powered-enough chips to connect together and the like
23:28:27 <micahjohnston> what about fpgas?
23:28:37 <uorygl> alise: don't you just get an FPGA?
23:28:38 <Gregor> I don't think that building a massively-parallel processor at any scale less than a supercomputer is possible today.
23:28:42 <alise> 64,000 FPGAs? Okay, so I'd want slightly less... but still.
23:28:48 <alise> (slightly as in vastly, but you need a lot...)
23:28:59 <micahjohnston> fgpas /are/ massively parallel, aren't they?
23:28:59 <alise> Gregor: there's that 64-core chip
23:29:05 <alise> micahjohnston: not in the way that the CM was
23:29:09 <Gregor> 64 is not massively-parallel.
23:29:15 <Gregor> 64 is kinda-parallel.
23:29:22 <alise> the CM was 64,000 low-powered processors, acting on small bits of data, connected together with special routers.
23:29:39 <micahjohnston> but fpgas are a much better model for parallel computation
23:29:49 <micahjohnston> because instead of connecting up sequential processors
23:29:54 <micahjohnston> you connect up logic gates and suck
23:29:56 <micahjohnston> such*
23:30:09 <Gregor> FPGAs ... well, FPGAs are basically hardware, so they're parallel, but it's hard to define programming models for them since ... well, they're hardware ...
23:30:30 <alise> micahjohnston: the CM wasn't a crappy approach though
23:30:32 <alise> it was excellent
23:30:51 <micahjohnston> it's not hard to define programming models for them
23:30:57 <micahjohnston> programming models don't need to be imperative programming.
23:31:00 <micahjohnston> designing circuits is programming.
23:31:32 <alise> micahjohnston: everything you are saying is true and useless.
23:31:41 <micahjohnston> how is it useless?
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23:38:37 <alise_> Aww, tinix.org is taken.
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23:39:46 <coppro> heh, I love Pikmin
23:39:52 <alise_> Maybe I'll name the distro something completely irrelevant, like "pushpin".
23:39:53 <coppro> "Inedible. Tastes like chicken."
23:40:16 <alise_> coppro: I started playing Pikmin once, but got this strange feeling of stasis and isolation. Indescribable, really.
23:40:18 <alise_> So I stopped!
23:40:33 <coppro> ooh, I just got an idea for a parallel language. Like Pikmin, each IP can only do a subset of tasks
23:40:41 <uorygl> alise_: "Transom"!
23:40:49 <uorygl> Except you like lowercase letters, so "transom".
23:40:54 <alise_> uorygl: Why transom?
23:40:58 <coppro> alise_: whoa, weird
23:41:00 <uorygl> Because it's completely irrelevant.
23:41:04 <alise_> uorygl: Well, yes.
23:41:21 <alise_> coppro: It was like I was playing, say, Microsoft Excel, not a game.
23:41:23 <alise_> Strange feeling.
23:41:27 <alise_> Guess it's just not my game.
23:41:31 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, that is a idea, try writing it more specifically or put in esolang list of ideas in case someone want to make strange thing
23:41:38 <alise_> (The flight simulator doesn't count.)
23:43:27 <alise_> uorygl: "transom" isn't pronounced so nicely, though.
23:45:32 <alise_> uorygl: Also, it sounds like "ransom".
23:45:36 <uorygl> I want to meet Richard Feynman. Too bad that's impossible.
23:47:39 <alise_> uorygl: Not if you perfectly simulate the universe before he died!
23:48:03 <zzo38> alise_: Too bad that is also probably impossible
23:48:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: zzo38).
23:48:24 <alise_> Probably not impossible, but you're not likely to find the input state...
23:48:32 <alise_> And it'd be hard storing it...
23:48:57 <alise_> uorygl: Come up with another arbitrary word.
23:49:20 <uorygl> Lanyard.
23:49:57 -!- The_Cat has joined.
23:50:15 <alise_> uorygl: Again.
23:50:52 <uorygl> Churchkey... you're probably not a fan of that one at all.
23:51:19 <uorygl> Dowel.
23:51:27 <uorygl> Cleat.
23:51:37 <uorygl> Pestle.
23:53:09 <alise_> Lanyard is nice but it's too vowely :(
23:53:43 <uorygl> How about "lanyards"?
23:54:01 <alise_> It's mostly the middle section -- anyar -- which is completely "soft" and now I wish I knew the correct words for these things.
23:54:13 <alise_> In fact, even lanyar could be called that. the d balances it out but too late.
23:54:26 <micahjohnston> there are only sonorants except for the d in that whole word
23:54:28 * uorygl tries to look up the word.
23:54:33 <micahjohnston> lanyar has only sonorants
23:54:34 <uorygl> Ah, that's it.
23:54:38 <uorygl> Sonorant.
23:56:55 <alise_> Sonorant. I could call it that! :P
23:57:15 <alise_> Hmm, I could name it after some word for a frugal or minimalistic person.
23:57:26 <uorygl> Dreenal.
23:58:08 -!- The_Cat has left (?).
23:58:29 <uorygl> Chewable.
23:58:58 <micahjohnston> polyester
23:59:02 <uorygl> Blanket.
23:59:15 <micahjohnston> pneomonultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconeosis
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