< 1277078406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, it would be nice with a TM that could rewrite it's own rules < 1277078449 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does clisp-for-BEAM completely integrate with Erlang? As in, I can use a clisp module as if it were a normal erlang module? < 1277078638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, not clisp < 1277078641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said other lisp < 1277078654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, very clearly I said it wasn't clisp but a custom lisp < 1277078665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes it integrates fully < 1277078681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only because it is special crafted for erlang < 1277078720 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1277078997 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.reia-lang.org/wiki/Reia_Programming_Language < 1277079024 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a Ruby-like language with Python whitespace-significance for BEAM < 1277079088 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never understood what's so special about ruby < 1277079093 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a crock of shit < 1277079096 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all < 1277080742 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bf program is pretty much directly a turing machine, but a turing machine is not necessarily directly a brainfuck program < 1277080746 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is reading about Parsec < 1277080748 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sick. < 1277080775 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the control structure is different, the one of tm's is more flexible < 1277080782 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tms' < 1277080842 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have a state for each command in the program, and it's pretty obvious what you do in each state, and what state you go to < 1277080903 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case CakeProphet still doesn't know, turing machines have a finite amount of states, and at each time step they may, depending on state and tape content at tape head, change cell content at tape head, move on tape, and change state < 1277080932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a bf program your states must come in some sort of linear progression with loops, not in arbitrary jumps < 1277080963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is like while() vs. goto, but in a restricted computation model < 1277080967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i should go to sleep now < 1277081012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night oklopol < 1277081024 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night Sgeodude < 1277081026 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1277081281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, parsec? < 1277081287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in the astronomical thing < 1277081290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or as in for haskell? < 1277081374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1277081396 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277082730 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277082735 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.127.235 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277082745 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Haskell < 1277082895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ping < 1277083015 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMGYESSSSS < 1277083017 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TODAY IS A GOOD DAY < 1277083036 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://vetusware.com/download/AT_T%20UNIX%20System%20V%20Release%204%202.1.4/?id=5727 <-- this 1) works and 2) seems to be working on Bochs 8-D < 1277083071 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The boot disk didn't boot in Qemu, but I can always move it over later) < 1277083460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :System V? Who cares? < 1277083488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It had already succumbed to the crawl of coagulated growth by then. :) < 1277083518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Is pikhq dead for you too? < 1277083527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess I'll just have to compile my own uclibc. < 1277083545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flinix must happen. < 1277083548 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have ancient copies of Xenix too, but I haven't made them work in any emulator, not even MESS. < 1277083565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now Gregor must ask me what Flinix is. < 1277083572 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"What Flinix is?" < 1277083581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now Gregor must ask me "What is Flinix?". < 1277083597 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :""What is Flinix?"" < 1277083604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now Gregor must ask me What is Flinix?. < 1277083610 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn. < 1277083611 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trapped. < 1277083617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHA < 1277083738 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night, and good luck < 1277083811 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1277083997 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1277084287 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-71-7-214.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277084516 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@dsl.6.28.53.206.cos.dyn.pcisys.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277084649 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The objectives of software visualizations are to support the understanding of software systems (i.e., its structure) and algorithms (e.g., by animating the behavior of sorting algorithms) as well as the analysis of software systems and their anomalies (e.g., by showing classes with high coupling). < 1277084659 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why software companies are OBSESSED with sorting algorithms. < 1277084747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.exebeche.com/ ITT: the iPad becomes a viable development platform. < 1277084752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have but one thing to say: < 1277084753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh dear. < 1277084768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well -- apart from the lack of a compiler :P < 1277084780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Because, dude, heapsort just isn't hardcore enough! < 1277085033 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort with O(1) < 1277085043 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I call it I-don't-care-sort < 1277085125 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so would now be the time to make a proprietary, better Erlang with C syntax? < 1277085148 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With 100-core processors on the drawing boards these days. < 1277085255 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think if Google spends more time on Go that's probably what it will become, actually. < 1277085324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go is not proprietary, and it is not Google's project. < 1277085339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Google advertised it, and it is worked on by Google employees, but actually more than anything it is a project of the Plan 9 development team. < 1277085503 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h58.62.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277085622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to decide whether or not to use drop caps here < 1277085627 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1277085723 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1277085726 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HAVE UNIX SYSV < 1277085728 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 < 1277085744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Meet the old boss, same as the new boss. < 1277085927 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does my source of opinions (alise) think Go is good? < 1277085946 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I've got a bunch of packages on floppies that are poorly labeled ... where's my damned 'cc' :P < 1277085947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is not bad. < 1277085967 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that must mean it's incredible. If alise doesn't hate it... < 1277086004 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want a ~super-high quality~ LaTeX-typesotten version of The Metamorphosis? < 1277086031 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently I'm installing "Operations, Administration and Maintenance" < 1277086036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't so hot on screen; it alternates the margins of each page for printed use, and has blank pages so that chapters always start on the right page (I can't memorise recto and verso...) < 1277086039 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That package name tells me just about zero :P < 1277086046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is pretty. < 1277086061 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1277086066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used the Project Gutenberg translation, which isn't so bad. < 1277086114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's set to A4 paper but I'm pretty sure it'd look too big; I'd just print it scaled down on something smaller. < 1277086187 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a Haskell utility that automatically annotates functions with type declarations? < 1277086192 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CakeProphet < 1277086239 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely this must come with a compiler X-D < 1277086253 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, maybe not? But probably! < 1277086285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I imagine it comes with pcc. < 1277086307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Portable C Compiler (also known as pcc or sometimes pccm - portable C compiler machine) is an early compiler for the C programming language written by Stephen C. Johnson of Bell Labs[1] in mid-1970s—based in part on ideas from earlier work by Alan Snyder in 1973.[2][3] < 1277086307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the first compilers that could easily be adapted to output code for different computer architectures, the compiler had a long life span. It shipped with BSD Unix until the release of 4.4BSD in 1994—when it was replaced by the GNU C Compiler. It was very influential in its day, so much so that at the beginning of the 1980s, the majority of C compilers were based on it.[4] < 1277086309 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, but WHERE >_> < 1277086316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc(1). < 1277086320 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1277086327 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm installing package after package and not finding it. < 1277086336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For separate purchase, then. < 1277086388 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's probably true, but SO MUCH LAME. < 1277086390 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1277086391 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, come on, this is Unix! < 1277086396 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Skulpt is an entirely in-browser implementation of Python." < 1277086399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No... I ... can't believe that. < 1277086417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can anyone here remember: which byte order is network order? < 1277086427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the one most processors use, I think... I may be wrong. < 1277086431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1277086434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: And guess what? UNIX didn't include a C compiler until the 3rd Edition. < 1277086436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia was entirely unhelpful < 1277086438 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: *I have no idea* < 1277086444 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARGH < 1277086446 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's there. < 1277086446 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idcc < 1277086447 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have about half an idea < 1277086448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It wasn't WRITTEN in C until the 4th Edition. < 1277086458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but ther are two options, so that's useless < 1277086460 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: id? < 1277086462 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I realize that, but after that C and UNIX were inseparable. < 1277086465 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: WHO THE FUCK KNOWS! < 1277086474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl manual says big-endian < 1277086474 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man idcc < 1277086479 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Nope < 1277086479 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks, Perl manual! < 1277086482 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man: not found < 1277086491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Oh, of course; you'd buy the manual on paper, or it would be included with the system. < 1277086492 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1277086504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did nroff even exist then? I think they just used troff to publish it. < 1277086517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man(1) is like the Encyclopedia Britannica on a CD-ROM. < 1277086536 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Ever used 1st Edition Unix? < 1277086538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*UNIX < 1277086548 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to make it run on an emulator once. < 1277086551 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From TUHS IIRC. < 1277086557 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Friggin' awesome/terrible :P < 1277086561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ < 1277086566 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fixed-up OCR'd version; runs with SIMH. < 1277086567 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is about the earliest Unix that is totally still Unix though. < 1277086585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: The nice thing about the 1st Edition Manual is that it lists, along with procedure names, their PDP-11 assembly calling sequence. < 1277086586 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOOD I have vi SWEET < 1277086595 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not emacs WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS < 1277086599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, blame Bill Joy. < 1277086682 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've figured out the most pointless project ever. < 1277086688 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Write a C interpreter < 1277086697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :done, many times, utilised, many times. < 1277086717 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. idcc doesn't actually work >_< < 1277086738 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Python, actually. And then used to interpret the python interpreter to invoke the C interpreter. < 1277086759 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt that's been done. < 1277086764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[ehird@ping lib]$ ls -lh libuClibc-0.9.31.so < 1277086764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird users 191K Jun 21 02:16 libuClibc-0.9.31.so < 1277086769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did pikhq do to get it so big... < 1277086779 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what hse said. < 1277086783 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ahem- < 1277086794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're almost not funny. < 1277086799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, why is it SO < 1277086799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ffs < 1277086801 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*so < 1277086826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anyway < 1277086836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a Linux kernel down to ~480 KiB compressed < 1277086849 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't support block devices but it *will* be able to create a usable in-RAM system from floppy. < 1277086851 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Does it support enough to be reasonably called a "Linux kernel" < 1277086854 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? I just solved P=NP complete. < 1277086855 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1277086856 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1277086861 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-complete < 1277086864 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION typos more when he is eating. < 1277086875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It has devices, it only has tmpfs but that's okay because initramfs can read the floppy into RAM, < 1277086878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has TCP/IP support, < 1277086887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It ... has Ethernet device support? < 1277086905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have much but I fully expect it to run that tiny X server thing and Dillo. < 1277086909 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-1088893966.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1277086911 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of P=NP, don't you also win the prize if you solve P!=NP? < 1277086917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: of course. < 1277086921 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow this is rebuilding the kernel when there's new shit activated... < 1277086927 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which do you think is more likely to be true? < 1277086933 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That to me suggests it's actually building some C code, but that seems absurd, frankly. < 1277087046 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My next language shall be neither compiled nor interpreted in any way. Instead it will be "realized" by a realizer program. A realizer takes source code as input and constructs a physical machine that perofmrs the semantics of that code. < 1277087054 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...it's a fool-proof plan. < 1277087098 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, you're inventing ... FPGAs. < 1277087113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: It probably is rebuilding the kernel. < 1277087131 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: you just gave me a great bot idea, actually. < 1277087141 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bot that counts acronyms that occur on #esoteric in a given day. < 1277087145 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :provides statistics, etc. < 1277087206 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you need pseudo-terminals for getty? < 1277087268 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there any stack-based physical machines out there? < 1277087435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: probably not, getty uses real terminals < 1277087487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1277087495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flinix will use mingetty, probably. < 1277087498 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: yes, see: forth machines < 1277087540 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maaaan. The lack of a C compiler is really harshing my buzz here. < 1277087542 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: wait. see them where? Where, in the 1940s, would I go to look up such a thing? The library is closed right now. < 1277087550 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1277087672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you configure busybox to enable/disable commands? < 1277087689 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make menuconfig or edit .config < 1277087702 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How helpful. Now explain how menuconfig hasn't got those options. < 1277087712 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it hates you. < 1277087757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, it simply appears to be... hiding things from me. < 1277087775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there. < 1277087778 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wsa in a subdirectory, heh. < 1277087870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK, I lost all myconfig. < 1277087871 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*was < 1277087902 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... I'm trying to figure out what the advantage of using a register machine over a stack machine would be. < 1277087911 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a stack machine architecture would be awesome. < 1277087938 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maaan, gcc supported this system, but good luck ever finding a binary, plus of course I don't have the development headers so I'm just boned. < 1277087957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHEREAS I AM JUST STONED < 1277087965 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I wish I were stoned right now. < 1277087977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SO DOES GOD. < 1277087979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Isn't that deep?) < 1277087985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((That's what she said!)) < 1277087995 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though I'm not sure how many of you folks condone such things. Is anyone else a cannabis smoker? :o < 1277087999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, what the fuck, menuconfig. < 1277088001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're crazy. < 1277088006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're breaking up. < 1277088092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Small, simple, evil." --BusyBox on ed < 1277088330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mount? How can I mount anything? There is no block device support! < 1277088342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :login? init? Why do I need those? init is just a shell script, there are no users other than root! < 1277088358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so easy to configure a Linux installation if your constraints are dictated by the almighty 2 MiB floppy disk. < 1277088368 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just disable EVERYTHING. < 1277088382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cron? Hahahahaha < 1277088486 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't forget GNOME < 1277088494 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1277088522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, me and pikhq are going to use KDrive... so we will have X11. < 1277088534 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. well good. < 1277088560 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whenever I design Operating Systems < 1277088570 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I make my own custom desktop environment on top of ncurses < 1277088587 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the best platform... < 1277088664 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow ... I just typed the pathname of a real program (which I don't have) in UNIX V/386 into Google, and got NO responses. < 1277088667 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that even possible? < 1277088754 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... I'm in the 1950s < 1277088762 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where there is no Google < 1277088767 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1277088778 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the context of your time, I would say it has something to do with it being 2010. < 1277088791 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can communicate with the future only through IRC < 1277088804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am a sentient Jacquard Loom. < 1277088805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beat that. < 1277088881 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... < 1277088885 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gladly. < 1277088934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flinix is going to be so awesome. < 1277088948 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277088956 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things were admittedly difficult when I time traveled to the 1920s. I had to hack together an IRC client from an electric typewriter, which meant I had to manually type in IRC commands. < 1277088982 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was last week though. < 1277088999 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! get it < 1277089013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put a floppy in an old computer, reboot. Voila, 800x600 or 1024x768 256-colour X11 session opens with welcome text, a terminal, and a menu. < 1277089031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can run a command in the terminal to start your Ethernet network and connect with DHCP, < 1277089045 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not automatic? < 1277089048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then open the menu and you can use Dillo to browse the subset of the interwebs that hasn't upgraded to 2.0 yet. < 1277089059 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can irc via ircii or some other similar thing. < 1277089063 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Psh, this isn't Floppy Ubuntu. < 1277089067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you can't mount any disks, but who really cares? < 1277089078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and did I mention? A package manager means that you can install any package that will fit in RAM from the interwebnets. < 1277089113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, you will be unable to save these packages, even to another floppy. The kernel HAS NO FILESYSTEM SUPPORT beyond tmpfs, or block device support. < 1277089121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead, initramfs loads the floppy into RAM as a tmpfs; job done. < 1277089131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not automatic, you might need to manually configure the network < 1277089143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also, every byte counts; easier to write a quick briefing on how to start the network than an automagic script. < 1277089167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, point is: Put in floppy. Boot up. Usable graphical environment. The web. IRC. WTF awesome. < 1277089194 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could always do some kind of CLOUD FILESYSTEM OOOOOOH < 1277089232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: And all this with a modern kernel, uClibc, and Busybox. < 1277089241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A modern kernel! One without block device support, sure, but... < 1277089258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't floppy disks block devices? < 1277089275 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. But think about how a Linux boot floppy works. The kernel never reads the floppy. < 1277089283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so < 1277089287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The initramfs loads the floppy into RAM as a tmpfs, then hands over to the kernel, which sees it as a tmpfs. < 1277089295 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Job done. < 1277089296 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's certainly an ingenious way to make the disk read-only < 1277089304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not intentional. < 1277089312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, what about kernel modules in the package manager < 1277089315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that even with all of this removed, the kernel is ~480 KiB. < 1277089321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No kernel module support, heavens no! < 1277089323 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you really need to be able to read a disk, you could download block device support and use it < 1277089326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and that 480 KiB figure is LZMA compressed. < 1277089329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, the kernel is big. < 1277089331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Features are baaad. < 1277089339 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh, in that case, how are you going to support hardware? < 1277089347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I may end up enabling block device support and filesystems out of sheer weakness if userspace doesn't take up as much space as I expect. < 1277089351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just assuming a VGA screen or whatever? < 1277089378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: We're going to use the KDrive tiny X11 server (part of X.org now) with SVGA. < 1277089382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(We = me and pikhq.) < 1277089388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yeah, just assume SVGA. < 1277089391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a wide enough range of resolutions. < 1277089414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and presumably you're only supporting wired networking < 1277089420 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to avoid needing a bunch of drivers for wireless cards < 1277089431 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even then, how are you going to select which networking drivers to use? < 1277089440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the three most popular, or whatever? < 1277089453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Broadcom drivers. Nothing else. Works fine. < 1277089457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most stuff is generic enough these days. < 1277089478 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ethernet, you can't really go wrong with Ethernet. Ethernet works nowadays, all the old tutorials saying "Oh, get a Broadcom card!" are really just FUD by now. < 1277089504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I realised it worked fine, but I thought it was due to the breadth of available drivers, rather than them all being the same < 1277089562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's actually very few Ethernet drivers to enable in the kernel. < 1277089567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Broadcom is the only one that would ring anyone's bell. < 1277089664 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wait, WHAT ABOUT BLUETOOTH? < 1277089683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1277089687 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha. < 1277089689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also no USB or sound support. (Sound support requires block devices.) < 1277089729 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277089896 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what other programs do you think would be useful? < 1277089906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nethack < 1277089913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how small can you get nethack? < 1277089921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're going to be very short for space < 1277089924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, there's definitely a version designed to fit on a floppy < 1277089934 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which presumably implies that it takes up most of the floppy, so probably too large < 1277089946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enough to access a package manager is probably fine < 1277089956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, try to put at least one TC program on there, like a shell or something < 1277089973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Busybox has a shell, so yes. < 1277089984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It will also have gzip and tar and the like. < 1277089990 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I've included a floppy formatter but have just realised that'll be useless. < 1277090002 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if I disable all the extensions and patches, surely nethack isn't so big? < 1277090006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if I UPX the executable? < 1277090015 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The whole system will be LZMA'd, anyway. < 1277090120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'll probably include some tiny mail client. < 1277090155 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irssi is a pretty sweet terminal IRC client. < 1277090159 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is using it right now. < 1277090162 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Problem is, with a 480 KiB kernel, compressed, and the hundred kibibytes or so busybox will take up, we're short for space, even using an unformatted floppy disk. < 1277090166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: But it is too big for a floppy. < 1277090167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, irssi. < 1277090169 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1277090171 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus, ircii. < 1277090188 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh. < 1277090202 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :UNFERIOR < 1277090211 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 mibibytes. Get a working system with X11. < 1277090213 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go on. < 1277090246 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that you're using /space/ to represent programs < 1277090249 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not BRAINPOWER!!! < 1277090251 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1277090256 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: can bootloaders read unformatted floppy disks? < 1277090267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure some can. < 1277090269 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1277090271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The formatting is just fluff. < 1277090287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but if they don't, there's no point in putting the disk in a computer and hoping it'll boot < 1277090290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, I don't mean bootloaders < 1277090293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean BIOSes < 1277090316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, don't they just read the first sector and jump to it...? < 1277090391 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point < 1277090502 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277090562 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... I've always wondered how LiveCDs mangage to be architecture independent. < 1277090568 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277090591 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't they have to store some kind of machine code? < 1277090594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: /init is just going to be a shell script that starts some gettys and X :-) < 1277090618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: normally they use a machine-code polyglot < 1277090625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not architecture-independent, but working on more than one arch as a result < 1277090627 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah. < 1277090646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :machine code is a pretty simple language to polyglot, generally, as it has no syntax errors < 1277090658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like INTERCAL, only the bits you actually try to run have to make sense < 1277090659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most livecds aren't architecture independent < 1277090740 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when writing something like... a bootable floppy. < 1277090748 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd want to imploy such a strategy right? < 1277090754 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*employ < 1277090802 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1277090829 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to run on any of numerous old CPU architectures of course. < 1277090882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a floppy? < 1277090887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how big is this hypothetical floppy?! < 1277090930 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, your bootloader is always the first sector, not the whole floppy. But I assume what you're saying is that such a thing is impractical. < 1277090934 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1277090966 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277091045 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a question for #esoteric < 1277091072 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be the most difficult combination of languages to polyglot. I guess imposing a limit of 2 languages. < 1277091096 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some are completely impossible, because they each require incompatible fixed headers < 1277091185 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like Erlang and Haskell. < 1277091192 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both require a module declaration < 1277091230 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only Erlang's compiler directives were -- instead of - :P < 1277091875 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/poly_quine5.txt < 1277091881 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm guessing most of you have seen this < 1277091892 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I found found it. 5-language polyglot. < 1277091956 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye, everyone. < 1277091957 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo! < 1277091985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh :P < 1277091987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1277091991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277093919 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1277094004 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be cool to have a language that compiles to various polyglot styles. < 1277094043 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Erlang and Haskell? Sure. Just needs *literate* Haskell. ;) < 1277094066 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. But that sounds like cheating to me. :P < 1277094075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1277094108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that Literate Haskell is defined by the Haskell98 report; just a nice feature of the language is all. < 1277094121 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. I guess so. < 1277094133 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a 7-lang polyglot somewhere < 1277094143 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I just saw it. < 1277094145 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait that's a quine?!?! < 1277094150 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1277094176 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BF/C/python are the obvious ones < 1277094176 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes it even more epic right? < 1277094182 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's.... < 1277094188 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C, Python, Perl, Ruby, BF < 1277094215 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all quines. < 1277094231 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmkay < 1277094251 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but don't ask me how. < 1277094252 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277094417 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277094891 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have idea for a executable format in Linux that has something similar to COM format in DOS. But, instead, there is a small header in the file, to identify the file as this format and to tell how much memory to allocate, maybe also operating system and processor codes. Once the program is loaded, that header is replaced by the PSP in memory. And then the same memory is used for code/data/etc < 1277094962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That format is called a.out < 1277095128 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, a.out is different (I looked it up on Wikipedia) < 1277095251 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this conversation is full of fail < 1277095321 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Please explain better then, if everyone else failed then maybe you can explain better? < 1277095327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mother is fail. < 1277095354 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's not that you failed. It's that you said things which are full of fail < 1277095396 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please describe, then, which things are full of failed < 1277095421 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for starters, your the fact that you don't understand the use of 'fail' as a noun < 1277095462 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. Anything else? < 1277095476 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything esle < 1277095557 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please be specific so that I can know what is wrong and so that I can fix it. < 1277095574 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The other thing you are fail is writing "else") < 1277096182 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277096528 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never quite understood how binary formats work. < 1277096545 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very simply < 1277096547 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are they interpreted by something before they become machine code? < 1277096549 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you put bytes in < 1277096552 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you take bytes out < 1277096562 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"binary formats" as in ELF/a.out < 1277096565 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they are merely parsed for where to load stuff into memory. < 1277096566 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1277096572 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They already *contain* machine code. < 1277096577 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. < 1277096582 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel (usually) reads them to set the program up < 1277096607 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, okay. Got it now. I just never figured out where that happens I guess. < 1277096619 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but assumed it did. < 1277096619 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF just states "These places need to be replaced with addresses corresponding to these symbols" and "This needs to be loaded at place X". < 1277096630 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. And a bunch of other metadata. < 1277096644 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume these are things that machine code can't do alone? < 1277096649 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather... not easily. < 1277096659 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *is* machine code already. < 1277096673 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not in a standardized, secure way. < 1277096674 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of it? < 1277096693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, no. It's machine code and metadata. < 1277096702 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ELF just states "These places need to be replaced with addresses corresponding to these symbols" and "This needs to be loaded at place X". < 1277096707 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this machine code or metadata? < 1277096726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The machine code has a few variables it *might* need filled in; the metadata describes where those are and what they need to be filled in with. < 1277096735 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1277096744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(along with obvious stuff like "size of machine code", "requested load address", "CPU architecture", etc.) < 1277096775 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by variables? I'm not very familiar with machine code. < 1277096791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of these variables (usually called "symbols") might need a shared library; if so, the ELF file also describes which shared libraries are needed. < 1277096815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're just memory addresses. < 1277096835 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't they usually have a dynamic thunk? < 1277096837 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it contains machine code with macros (symbols), essentially? < 1277096865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh, right; it specifies the name of the dynamic linker too. < 1277096873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: For the most part. < 1277096912 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are some things the compiler of said binary won't really know until the program executes? < 1277096926 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1277096951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like which memory address functions from shared libraries happen to be loaded at. < 1277096997 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277097421 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you also need a simple executable format, the header needs only: Magic number; Processor type; Operating system type; Amount of memory to allocate (the same memory is shared for code/data/stack); Execute start address. < 1277097440 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is my idea of one kind of execute format < 1277097444 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be invented < 1277097455 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having the stack anywhere near code/data makes me wince. < 1277097475 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :loloverflow < 1277097492 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just put it so that an overrun will hit you into code, which should be protected < 1277097592 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, fixing security risks from overflows really should be done at a library level. I don't think executables should worry about it. < 1277097600 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you allocate enough memory, the stack won't be near the code/data as much. But if you think your program might stack overflow, the program can reallocate the stack when it starts, anyways. < 1277097650 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most programs are not smart enough < 1277097741 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This kind of executable format would be used mostly for if you are writing a small program in machine-codes which does not use a lot of stack space. < 1277097756 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But can be used for larger programs as well. < 1277097825 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Simply: The operating system allocates the memory, and then copies the contents of the file into the allocated memory, initialize stack pointer to the end of the allocated memory, replace the header with the PSP, and then jump to the execute start address. < 1277097945 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank you for saying it, xckd < 1277097948 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*xkcd < 1277098026 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS EXE format is not too far from that, except it's got relocation entries too. But it does allocate a single block of memory (for code and data, plus a fixed amount of extra memory for zero-initialized data). And you specify the initial stack pointer in the header, so it can be put at the end there. (I don't quite know where it usually is.) < 1277098070 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277098276 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm desperately trying to make a cross-compiler targeting System V/386 :P < 1277098281 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm betting: miserable failure. < 1277098314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Absolutely miserable, I'm sure. < 1277098337 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1277098349 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newlib actually has a sysv i386 target. < 1277098358 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea whether it's maintained or has a non-zero chance of working. < 1277098366 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But since I don't have the native libc, it's all I've got :P < 1277098395 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or rather, I have the native libc, but not the headers and other stuff necessary for compilation. < 1277098477 0 :augur!~augur@pool-74-96-9-33.washdc.east.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277098563 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: My idea is actually different, for one thing is not limited to DOS. For another thing the header is shorter, has no relocation entries, has no checksums or initial stack setting, no overlay numbers, and only one number for how much memory, which includes the entire file as part of it. < 1277098618 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I just said "not too far". < 1277098723 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't advocate using DOS EXEs, it's a pretty messy thing. The relocs are all segment-address fixups. < 1277098853 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277099065 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want to use a complicated bootloaders such as GRUB and so on, I want to use a simple one! I wrote a thirty-six bytes MBR code, so it should be mostly good enough. < 1277099420 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daaaaamn GCC takes forever to compile. < 1277099448 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And all of this is just going to result in a nonworking GCC anyway :P < 1277099520 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277099588 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC takes nearly forever to compile. < 1277099598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Does it load Linux? < 1277100403 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277100404 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277100441 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277100457 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The thirty-six bytes MBR code does not load Linux. It loads only real-mode programs, and not more than 64K. However, it can be used to load a second loader, which then initializes protected mode and loads Linux. < 1277100536 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1277100547 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, it loads a COM file. < 1277100579 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, except that there is no PSP and no DOS functions. < 1277100601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still a COM file. < 1277100710 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think a code to fully load Linux (or even to fully initialize protected mode properly) will fit in the MBR code. < 1277100761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does. < 1277100775 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though to load Linux does *not* entail protected mode. < 1277100810 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It entails loading Linux and an initrd into memory with a command line at a given place, and jumping into its initialisation routine. < 1277100843 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how long is a code to do that? < 1277100913 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :512 bytes, I think. < 1277100937 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall Linux 2.4 had such a bootloader as its first 512 bytes. < 1277100952 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That won't fit in the MBR code. the MBR is 512 bytes long but part of it is used for magic number and stuff < 1277100984 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is (or was, maybe) a boot sector in the kernel, yes, but it was pretty limited. Didn't do any filesystems, for example, so it could only load the kernel from a raw media. < 1277101005 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it didn't do the usual sort of separate-file initrd, it did something else instead. < 1277101035 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did support flipping floppies in-between loading the kernel and the ramdisk, though. < 1277101041 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could specify how many blocks in the initrd was using some tool to set the default command line. < 1277101048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just have it swap floppies. < 1277101063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *was* quite nice to do dd if=bzimage of=/dev/fdd, though.n < 1277101425 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy fekk GCC compiled! < 1277101519 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1277101566 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: In arch/x86/boot/header.S of 2.6.33.1 (for which I had sources handy) there is in fact still a boot sector, but the boot sector just prints out the text at address "bugger_off_msg", namely "Direct booting from floppy is no longer supported. Please use a boot loader program instead." < 1277101581 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. Gah I hate that. < 1277101608 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine keeping around a freaking boot sector would take too much work. < 1277101635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like the BIOS has changed since, oh, DOS 1. < 1277101886 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1277102005 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h39.10.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277102195 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad is an idiot. < 1277103625 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1277103753 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h79.22.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277103909 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1277104280 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How often do you use dual-licensing? < 1277104297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I more often use a general licence, than two licences < 1277104307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. release something LGPL even though I only plan to use it as GPL < 1277104321 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foo. < 1277104333 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MEMDISK is insufficient to boot UNIX SysV. < 1277104350 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means unfortunately that UNIX SysV can't be turned into a delightfully absurd LiveCD. < 1277104374 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes I can understand that, which I might do in some cases (but mostly not). Usually I don't use dual-licensing either. But sometimes I do. < 1277104377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What a shame. < 1277104401 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Yes, your father is the embodiment of idiocy. < 1277104402 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote one program which is dual-licensed by "GNU GPL version 2 or later version, or Ms-RL (Microsoft Reciprocal License)". < 1277104433 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only one program, though. The reason why I did that is because it is a program which would be useful for Microsoft to include in Windows. < 1277104451 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would also be useful to include in ReactOS. < 1277104481 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This particular program happens to be useless for Linux, however. < 1277104504 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: somehow I doubt Microsoft would include it in Windows even if it were MS-RL licensed < 1277104509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're rather paranoid < 1277104549 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He doesn't want "other people on our network" < 1277104586 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best explanation he can give for his "no hosting" rule < 1277104588 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You are probably right, but they can do so if they want to. < 1277104615 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that he needs the bandwidth. And saying "Ok, no bandwidth-intensive stuff when you're home" isn't enough. < 1277104669 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he needs upload bandwidth? < 1277104681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hosting mostly uses a different sort of bandwidth from normal internet use < 1277104723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.. don't think so. I wasn't even thinking of that, but he needs mostly download bandwidth, but this was apparently a separate issue < 1277104779 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I host three protocols on my computer, and my father is OK with that. (And later I might even add more protocols) < 1277104811 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My dad won't even let me host games < 1277104828 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he won't let me run a client that runs a game if I'm not attending it < 1277104847 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I think he wants me to cut off Internet access when I'm not at the computer < 1277104883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most ADSL-providing ISPs around here have slipped a "you must not connect any sort of servers to your pipe" condition to their terms and conditions, though that gets widely ignored (esp. for games), I think. < 1277104883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he thinks that bandwidth is a *resource*. < 1277104894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than, y'know, a measurement of the size of your pipe. < 1277104916 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you eat all your bandwidth cake today, you'll go hungry tomorrow! < 1277104922 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I asked if there was a cap, he said no < 1277104944 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, watching the last 10 min of this SGA ep < 1277104945 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so he knows nothing about hor the Internet works. < 1277104957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly, he should head a Congressional commitee on it. < 1277104984 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He once made me wipe my HD because I downloaded and installed a chat server < 1277105021 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know the ISP that I use is OK with hosting any protocols (I even asked them). < 1277105056 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is too stupid to be allowed to own a computer. < 1277105074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, he is too stupid to be allowed to own any technology more complex than flint & steel. < 1277105147 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You might be right (approximately) < 1277105419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277106631 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277107199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1277107200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1277108079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ironically, there are ISPs that actually work like that < 1277108786 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277111722 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1277111944 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-8-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277112139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any File Hierarchy Standard experts here? I'm trying to figure out where you're supposed to put architecture-independent binaries not meant to be run by the user < 1277112146 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a possibility I don't think they considered < 1277112383 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scripts, that is? < 1277112513 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I said binaries < 1277112531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current example is a Java binary < 1277112538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which runs on the JVM, thus platform-independent < 1277112712 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would stick those (but then, I have pretty much no clue of FHS) in share directory. < 1277112731 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm I'm putting it in a subdir under usr/lib < 1277112742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is at least vaguely consistent with the other rules < 1277112753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would obviously be the right place for the file if it was written in, say, C < 1277114905 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-8-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277115136 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1277115211 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1277115241 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277115508 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CakeProphet < 1277116089 0 :dbc!~daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277116129 0 :atrapado!~ro@193.144.79.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277116247 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1277116577 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: FWIW, Debian puts "library"-ish Java binaries in /usr/share/java/. < 1277116618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I may move mine there then < 1277116633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what if they're only meant to be run by one particular shellscript? < 1277116730 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say there in that case too. At least ant is there, and it's mostly meant to be run by the /usr/bin/ant script, though admittedly IDEs and other such things use the Java classes "directly" too. < 1277116780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :After all, with Java, you never quite know who'll want to reuse bits and pieces of you. < 1277116805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I suppose so < 1277116832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, Eclipse puts all its Java stuff into /usr/lib/eclipse/. < 1277116850 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, all its stuff in general, I guess.) < 1277116891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But OpenOffice.org's Java bits are in /usr/share/java/openoffice/ even though that's quite many files. < 1277116904 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't seem to be much of a consensus. < 1277117720 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-8-174.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277118040 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277118529 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1277118910 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277120098 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't there 32- and 64-bit versions of Java (differing mainly in array indexing). Are the bytecode files cross-compatible (32-bit ones just can't access array indexes beyond 2Gi)? < 1277120122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, not only that, but the bytecode format AFAICT has never been changed < 1277120145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll get class-loading errors if you try to run a recent Java file on an old JVM and you reference standard classes that used not to exist, but that's about it < 1277120157 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lua bytecode files are arch-specific... < 1277120158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and you can use reflection to get around that problem) < 1277120170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the JVM arch-portability is the whole point < 1277120225 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... Mention of errors bring me flashbacks from making app that has optional GUI and from making app that uses JNI and works on both GCJ and Sun JVM... < 1277120253 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(two different apps, both wound up having to catch errors)... < 1277120421 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCJ links JNI libs into executable, so you don't have to load them and attempts to load them would error out anyway. Sun JVM requires loading the libs... < 1277120466 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you call GUI function when there is no GUI available (and not in headless mode) you get an error (not merely an exception). < 1277120482 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some class does not exist error). < 1277121047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least you can be assured that whatever is thrown is a subclass of Throwable. In C++ someone could throw an elephant at you. < 1277121098 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen code that throws undocumented unsigned integers, and has a single top-level catch which prints "error n" and dies. Helpful! < 1277121162 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And multiple instances of code that throws string constants that are used as the error messages. (Which is pretty Perlish in a way.) < 1277121239 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or Luaish... < 1277121291 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm tempted to try out what happens if I throw a non-Throwable from a JNI method, but this phone keyboard is not very comfortable for coding. < 1277121302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I remember when I was learning C++, I threw integers just because I could < 1277121315 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, error can take any type of value, but usually it is string that is "thrown"). < 1277121405 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently in one piece of code, due to bugs threw std::string's... < 1277121494 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just guess what kind of programming error causes code that should throw subclasses of std::exception to throw std::string's instead...) < 1277121512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :throwing the message of an exception rather than the exception itself? < 1277121621 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty much. Forgetting to actually specify the class to throw ('+ std::string +' makes it std::string). < 1277121636 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like 'throw ("foo" + bar)'. < 1277121658 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When it should be 'throw std::runtime_error("foo" + bar)'. < 1277121676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is wrong with being able to throw integer? < 1277121705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it becomes unmaintainable pretty easily < 1277121714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and interferes with the use of exceptions for exception handling < 1277121730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how would it work in languages without objects but with exceptions? < 1277121735 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the exception is unhandled, whatever code is calling you, rather than getting a nice exception object it can query and show to the use, gets a meaningless number < 1277121737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you weren't allowed to throw any data type < 1277121747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see nothing wrong with allowing it < 1277121751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1277121754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even if allowed, I don't think it's a feature that should be use < 1277121756 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*used < 1277121772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I suggest throwing meaningful tuples instead < 1277121778 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least in Lua, one can "throw" a table... < 1277121790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like {error,failed} ;) < 1277121810 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: is that meaningful? < 1277121818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no, it was a joke < 1277121847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erlang has exceptions and allows you to throw pretty much any data type (iirc there is some restrictions wrt "references" to things like open files and such) < 1277121853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/is/are/ < 1277121878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and erlang doesn't have object orientation so restricting it to "exceptions" wouldn't work < 1277121890 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worst is where code throws integers that change (new important ones are added) between versions. And there's no integer to string method... < 1277121893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually you throw tuples or atoms < 1277121903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and document what stuff you may throw < 1277121933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you get a runtime exception it tends to be a tuple with the first member being an atom indicating the type < 1277121939 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So caller may suddenly get "Error 75" and has no idea what it is supposed to be... < 1277121961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as badmatch, or badarith (usually div by zero) < 1277122017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to work pretty well < 1277122039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl does allow throwing references in addition to just strings, I'm not sure how much that gets used though. < 1277122093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I think you can throw some references, such as pids. What I'm unsure about is if you can throw ports or not. ports is a low level stuff in erlang which is basically a thin wrapper around an fd most of the time < 1277122101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually you don't work directly with ports anyway < 1277122173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, now I want to write a Perl program that throws a typeglob < 1277122175 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl "references" is perhaps a bit different term; usually it's just references to arrays or hash tables. < 1277122178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not entirely sure why < 1277122186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1277122199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was just about to say I wouldn't try that. :p < 1277122211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm erlang has references too. In that case it is a kind of "guarantied unique id" thingy < 1277122215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl references are like C pointers, except they're refcounted and you can't do arithmetic on them < 1277122223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which I assume you can throw < 1277122250 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a typeglob? < 1277122253 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could probably throw an IO::Handle without much problems in Perl, but it's not as distributedy as Erlang. < 1277122272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically there is a runtime function that will return a new reference every time, and you can't construct arbitrary references out of the air. Well perhaps you can with some debugger function, wouldn't surprise me. < 1277122296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh yeah ports are local to the node. Which is why you don't work with ports directly most of the time < 1277122316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you work with an IO server process provided by the runtime by default unless you open the file in a raw mode. < 1277122338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are other good reasons for the io server process. Like it provides buffering. < 1277122354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(iirc) < 1277122369 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: don't ask what a typeglob is, it takes too long to explain and even when you do you get it wrong < 1277122382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I assume you could throw a fun *tests* < 1277122383 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC most explanations of how they work basically just give you a list of examples < 1277122392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun being like a lambda or a function pointer < 1277122393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can be either < 1277122422 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.sdsc.edu/~moreland/courses/IntroPerl/docs/manual/pod/perldata.html#Typeglobs_and_Filehandles has (one) official explanation. < 1277122427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2> catch throw(fun erlang:abs/1). < 1277122427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#Fun < 1277122428 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1277122436 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or your local perldoc perldata.) < 1277122454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is function pointer style < 1277122456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3> catch throw(fun(X) -> X*X end). < 1277122456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#Fun < 1277122460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambda style works just as well < 1277122580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : make_ref() -> ref() < 1277122580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Returns an almost unique reference. < 1277122580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The returned reference will re-occur after approximately 2^82 calls; therefore it is unique enough for practical purposes. < 1277122580 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1277122581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh lag spike < 1277122582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or timing out < 1277122590 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... < 1277122595 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :throw(fun party/2) -- when you want to arrange a pleasant party for two. < 1277122608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, ? < 1277122653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well that requires a function party in the same module that takes two parameters < 1277122858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6> (catch throw(fun(X) -> X*X end))(3). < 1277122858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 < 1277122860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1277122870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1277122896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(catch throw(fun party/2))(self(), < 1277122897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1277122904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who should I put there?) < 1277122968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(self() is a function that returns the pid [that is erlang pid, not related to OS pids at all] of the current process btw) < 1277123257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Arrivederci < 1277126420 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1277126625 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277126675 0 :Gracenotes!~person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1277127358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" He doesn't want "other people on our network" <<< maybe he downloads a lot of CP and is paranoid because of that? < 1277127371 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"" < 1277127383 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(thought i typoed and deleted the other one) < 1277127518 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here program on the S/390? < 1277127529 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm looking at an S/380 emulator < 1277128358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, an ad banner with the link URL ending ...&cb=INSERT_RANDOM_NUMBER_HERE. I guess they assume a DWIM-browser. < 1277128407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or DWIM server to serve the ads < 1277128419 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1277129012 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh strange thing < 1277129058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some speed reduction thingies on this street, in the form of two boxes that forces you to slow down and drive in the shape of an S < 1277129081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today, two different lorries have drove up to it, and then backed down the whole street < 1277129090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first time it happened afaik < 1277129140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and just now a tow truck doing the same < 1277129146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1277132743 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1277135027 0 :lifthras1ir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277135904 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1277135924 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277135954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange for an embedded system to have a snprintf() that inserts "(null string)" if %s is passed a NULL pointer < 1277135964 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: A real .com file from an unmodified Linux x86-64 GCC+ld, with command line arguments only (no fiddling with .specs): http://pastebin.com/eChGDKDy < 1277135967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I would have expected undefined behaviour < 1277136001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw I managed to get some more free space on that device by tuning off features in config.h that I didn't use < 1277136021 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, if it's undefined, "(null string)" is perfectly valid too. < 1277136023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 2 kB extra < 1277136054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes but you wouldn't expect an embedded OS to waste space on 1) the code to check for that 2) the space to store the constant "(null string)" < 1277136110 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the other hand, it's more robust that way. < 1277136113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1277136137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since this doesn't have an MMU there are loads of other ways to crash it anyway. < 1277136152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :battery.o: DBase 3 data file with memo(s) (813309772 records) < 1277136157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I think file fails < 1277136193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objdump is way more correct: battery.o: file format coff-h8300 < 1277136243 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-173-200-100.clsp.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277136305 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277136367 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: You rock! < 1277136451 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a lot of linker fiddling though it seems < 1277136454 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It works in dosemu, but I'm a bit suspicious of how I'm accessing 0xa0000 via ds initialized to 0; I thought in real mode it would automatically set the segment limits to 64k. (It's easily fixable by putting 0xa000 into ds and initializing the videomem ptr to 0 instead.) And it's ugly code since GCC generates 32-bit everything, and ".code16gcc" just adds instruction prefix bytes to make that work in a 16-bit segment. < 1277136475 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277136535 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1277136552 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, and I couldn't quite figure out how to make it put the .data segment immediately after .text (without a separate linker script file); done that way it'll probably lose if you put in any (initialized or uninitialized) static data, except if you put in a __attribute__ ((section (".text"))) in. < 1277136564 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodness, you've spent 17 hours talking about this? < 1277136576 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: No, I just started when cpressey came in. < 1277136593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Good timing there. < 1277136613 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly gave a nice sense of flow. < 1277136666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1277136667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: dosemu is actually running in a psuedo-real mode. If it works there, it *should* work on actual DOS. < 1277136681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Uh, sorry, dosbox is what I meant to say. < 1277136683 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17? There was a weekend in between... we've been talking about it for 65 hours straight! < 1277136707 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. DOSbox *ought* to work, as that's actual (emulated) realmode, but there is a chance of bugs. < 1277136727 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right; I'm not sure how thorough they are with sanity-checks against illegal behaviour like that. < 1277136737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also who knows if it would work with different drivers and such loaded < 1277136827 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dosbox has a couple of different CPU core emulation modes, especially the dynamic-recompilation one might be a bit fast-and-furious here and there. < 1277136907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you list sections for a coff file? readelf -S obviously doesn't work < 1277136931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have binutils tools for the architecture available, not much else < 1277136941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well there is gcc too) < 1277136946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Get a binutils for Windows and objdump?n < 1277136949 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "objdump -h" ("section headers") or something. < 1277136958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what would that help? it is not for x86 at all < 1277136970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah hm < 1277136979 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, COFF. Not PE. < 1277136983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yep that works. thanks < 1277136985 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is nearly COFF. < 1277136990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, coff-h8300 < 1277136994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah; objdump for the relevant architecture. < 1277137010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, a 16-bit platform. big endian too < 1277137108 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277137559 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277137695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hopefully this'll mean I can now read that SDHC card too without going through the camera: http://sprunge.us/UdMB (and what a generic name there). < 1277137810 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(On the other hand, the old card reader's ID for the different slots was actually "Generic [cardtype]". < 1277138000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm? < 1277138027 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We talked about card readers not many days ago. < 1277138034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, as long as it is usb mass storage interface < 1277138050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not some other one. Let me find that hilarious driver in the linux kernel < 1277138092 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The old one didn't do SDHC, just plain old-fashioned SD cards. (And I think it was the slower USB 1.1, this should be 2.0-capable. Not that my cards are probably very snappy either.) < 1277138238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, no longer there? < 1277138264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, found with google: http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/mmc/host/ricoh_mmc.c?v=2.6.28 but it seems gone in newer kernels < 1277138279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, read the comment starting with "This is a conceptually ridiculous driver" < 1277138285 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Initial impressions; they've gone a bit overkill with the "I'm doing something" LED's brightness; it almost put my eye out. (Well, maybe not; but it has the "gritty" bloom-like effect I've only seen with laser pointers so far. Yes, yes, I know you're not supposed to look at those.) < 1277138434 0 :JodaZ_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1277138468 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wants a Look Around You pencil. < 1277138503 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a Besselheim plate. < 1277138558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, aha: < 1277138559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/stable/linux-2.6.34.y.git;a=commitdiff;h=03cd8f7ebe0cbef5ca7eed349774085e92a3d726 < 1277138708 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB devices are full of quirks. The PS3 "sixaxis" controller follows the USB HID spec in everything that matters, except that you need to send a HID_REQ_GET_REPORT request with a specific, nonstandard type (0xf2) before it goes into "operational mode" (i.e. works). < 1277138732 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I can't figure out any other reason for that except that they don't want people to be able to just plug that thing into a PC and have it working. < 1277138735 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what makes it "Universal". < 1277138756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :universal quirks? < 1277138816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and sometimes the quirks mess up for other devices. Like this bug that was finally resolved in 2.6.34, had to revert that quirk for other products locally for quite a few releases... https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14049 < 1277138996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows how long it will stay working for me however < 1277139130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's supposed to help haven't tested it yet < 1277139143 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I shut down pulseaudio. < 1277139144 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1277139216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue, why do you want to? < 1277139231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I presume there is some init script < 1277139233 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FlightGear has significant issues with PA. < 1277139271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1277139277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, afaik flightgear uses openal < 1277139290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess openal has issues with pa < 1277139295 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1277139312 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I know is that in the past it has run much better without PA. < 1277139312 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what's interesting < 1277139338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ubuntu at least has /etc/init.d/pulseaudio < 1277139348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also "pasuspender" in many systems. < 1277139361 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does a "temporarily disable pulseaudio until a process has finished" thing. < 1277139367 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i make out with chicks who know i have a gf, they are fine with it without exception, once i mention i'm in an open relationship, they go all wtf get some morals dude < 1277139385 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I'll try that. < 1277139390 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can do "pasuspender -- foo bar baz", and it'll run "foo bar baz", wait until it terminates, then restore pulseaudio functionalities. < 1277139394 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never tried it, though. < 1277139397 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, people make no sense. < 1277139416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't exactly shut down the daemon, it just tells it to disconnect all access to audio devices. < 1277139438 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed they don't < 1277139518 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how do I just kill the daemon? < 1277139521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does one edit keyboard shortcuts in gnome for some application. gnome-terminal in this case. < 1277139534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought there was some option to enable editing in the menus but I can't find it < 1277139538 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the puzzle today, oerjan < 1277139541 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1277139542 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1277139558 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it's somewhere in Appearance IIRC. < 1277139581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1277139592 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, that's not it. < 1277139597 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also people like to preach how that kind of relationships don't work without ever having been in as long a relationship as us < 1277139605 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WELL COMMENTS < 1277139606 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :?? < 1277139606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I think it used to be, maybe they removed it -_- < 1277139618 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you talk about daemons boring people < 1277139626 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait what are you talking about < 1277139628 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll read < 1277139633 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I'm pretty sure I saw it in 10.04. < 1277139649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, hm tell me if you find it < 1277139656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I'm going to try gconf now < 1277139663 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i can't tell, what's the topic < 1277139667 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GYAAH, I *remember* seeing it! < 1277139676 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a few comments < 1277139677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, exactly my feeling < 1277139682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, are you talking to us? < 1277139691 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who else? < 1277139693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277139698 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i'm asking myself what i'm talking aboutz < 1277139702 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*about < 1277139714 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes, people are weird about sexual mores. We get it. < 1277139723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i don't actually want comments < 1277139728 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was umm < 1277139732 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sarcasm or something < 1277139735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, found it in gconf anyway < 1277139747 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just like changing these kinds of topics, what topic is this? < 1277139785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GUIs and stuff. < 1277139789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I'm just confused I can't find it in settings either on ubuntu or arch linux. But last I saw it was in jaunty < 1277139790 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay cool < 1277139791 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have one of those < 1277139794 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why they're horribly unintuitive. < 1277139796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and karmic I just ran for about 2 days < 1277139805 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah computers suck < 1277139816 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i guess guis specifically suck < 1277139823 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1277139852 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: "pacmd exit" kills the daemon, but at least in my case it automagically starts up again all the time, possibly via dbus or who-knows-what-magic. < 1277139857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I almost want to go to gnome's irc server and ask, but you never get any reply there < 1277139875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, chmod -x < 1277139877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should fix it ;P < 1277139897 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly "sudo service pulseaudio stop" (or the likely-equivalent /etc/init.d/pulseaudio stop) will actually really make it stop. < 1277139901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heck I remember I used that back during KDE 3.x to prevent artsd from running < 1277139917 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how about this esolang that's like brainfuck but you have different kinds of fart sounds as commands? < 1277139924 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe < 1277139929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, is it on the wiki? < 1277139930 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it says something about per-user sessions. < 1277139931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what is the name < 1277139932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one command could play a fart sound on the speakers < 1277139938 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no :D < 1277139948 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm just being noisy < 1277139953 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1277139954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#ifndef DOXYGEN_SHOULD_SKIP_INTERNALS < 1277139955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1277139960 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the fart sounds in english i wonder < 1277139962 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll google < 1277139962 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, pasuspender (or just a manual "pacmd suspend") should make it detach and close the audio devices, so that they're available to other apps. < 1277139969 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so we can get this thing started < 1277139981 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably best idea this year so i'm expecting full cooperation < 1277140018 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, it's dead. < 1277140030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever happened to dmix or whatever the name was < 1277140037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :software mixer in alsa itself wasn't it? < 1277140045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would anyone need anything more than that < 1277140057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm lucky my desktop has hardware mixer however < 1277140115 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many people need "more than that", but of course there was already jack and such for the audio-enthusiasts. Still, I don't feel pulse's so horrible; of course I haven't been bitten by very bad bugs (yet). < 1277140153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes there is jackd for the "more than that" case. I don't see any niche for pulseaudio though < 1277140237 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pavucontrol's reasonably nice; you see a list of all apps that are generating sounds, and can switch which pipe (digital output to the amp, USB sound card to headphones, bluetooth headset) you want them to make noises to, easily. Of course with most apps you can specify the ALSA device, but it might not be in a easily accessible place, hidden in some preferences dialog or other. < 1277140253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1277140254 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, i can't find a list < 1277140270 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly i find "pfft"as a suggestion 8\ < 1277140275 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*"pfft" as < 1277140276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but who would play two different videos at once while also listening to music? < 1277140285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that seems like a non-existent use case < 1277140298 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe finnish fart sounds then < 1277140300 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do we have those? < 1277140305 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pruut? :D < 1277140310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, pulseaudio fills it, but most such apps can set their own volumes < 1277140322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about mplayer, but vlc can and iirc so can xine < 1277140323 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, why wouldn't there be decent onomatopoeia for farts < 1277140336 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not at the same time (very often), but I do keep using e.g. different outputs for Flash sound, and for Flash it's really inconvenient to start changing the ALSA device it uses. < 1277140348 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-10-157.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277140364 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway maybe we can use pf^+t for now do you agree? < 1277140367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1277140375 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pft and pfft could be + and - < 1277140376 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then < 1277140386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, file bug report for flash ;P < 1277140400 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pffft isn't <, because that wouldn't be very esoteric would it?!? so we SKIP the three xD < 1277140409 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so pfffft is < < 1277140422 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then maybe pffffft is > because on the other hand we don't wanna be TOO esoteric < 1277140431 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay getting kind of long, we'll carry to g < 1277140432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway, most cases of different volumes at the same time I can think of would be bg music/other sounds in games. And that would probably be mixed by openal before it reached alsa or pulseaudio < 1277140433 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pgt is [ < 1277140438 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then pgft for ] < 1277140458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, this is just like ook, rather boring < 1277140458 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and outputs, well we just need the actual fart command, that'll be prrrrt no matter whether it's actually used, i like it. < 1277140470 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no i think it's hilarious xxxxxxxD < 1277140473 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1277140474 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1277140477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1277140478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1277140484 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1277140486 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come back soon < 1277140487 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1277140488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have much to talk about < 1277140496 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and someone needs to start working on the spec < 1277140509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't really need the mixing-together part of pulseaudio (or ALSA's dmix, or a hardware mixer) very often. < 1277140512 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone have a weekend to spare soon? < 1277140535 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a pretty important project so you can probably skip weddings and funerals and the like. < 1277140592 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay now to add esotericness, maybe just MAYBE there could also be, occasionally, fart sounds even if you don't use the command, and kinda like in intercal, if you don't fart often enough then the program crashes=!?=!?!? crashes = makes a fart sound and dies < 1277140607 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish alise was here < 1277140642 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1277140645 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait actually < 1277140648 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You can't find others to fart with? < 1277140649 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we want input? < 1277140656 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1277140660 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can fart in a microphone < 1277140667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it interprets it somehow < 1277140674 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obv you can just store farts on the tape < 1277140685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are 256 different fart values < 1277140686 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just don't ask me to start building some sort of fart-recognition system. < 1277140689 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is a special fart < 1277140690 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1277140707 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you're the sound recognition dude, so i was just assuming < 1277140722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway 0 is called the SMELLY FART < 1277140723 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1277140729 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :farts are always smelly? < 1277140731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then maybe < 1277140735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WET fart xD < 1277140738 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that just hilarious < 1277140774 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i don't really understand how [ and ] work in brainf*ck we should probably copy the sementics < 1277140777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have some sort of a "thing" with farts? < 1277140813 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you say first < 1277140818 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1277140821 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll count to three < 1277140825 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then we'll both say < 1277140829 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whether we have a fart fetish? < 1277140844 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should probably not irc anymore today < 1277140851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that might be safer. < 1277140881 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow it's late :\ < 1277140886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was gonna do stuff today < 1277140888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1277140919 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers putting "FARTS LOL xD" on the wiki < 1277140949 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or F-101-xD, that looks pretty scientific < 1277140953 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've just been farting around, then, eh? < 1277140965 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kinda like acronym but there's leet and cool smileys too < 1277140966 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The act or process of wandering aimlessly with no particular goal", according to ud. < 1277140987 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure i've been wandering < 1277140995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i've been reading about nonwandering, does that count < 1277140998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"delaying something unnecessarily by dawdling, and slacking off"? < 1277141081 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds more like it < 1277141148 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh, incidentally; if you remember the "gift card to a store that had closed down all their retail places" thing, I finally got an answer out of them (24-hour email response time my... well, backside); the gift card is unusable in their webshop, but works directly in those "Gigantti" retail stores; the systems are compatibbel. < 1277141201 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay umm i tried to read about [ and ] on the wiki but it doesn't make any sense, maybe we could leave those out because i doubt anyone has the time to implement them are they important?? < 1277141260 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried to stop < 1277141261 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1277141263 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an idea < 1277141265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1277141278 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277141286 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1277141290 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :got ya < 1277141301 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1277141436 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, [] in Brainfuck? < 1277141460 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He is just being silly. < 1277141470 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an oko thing to do. < 1277141763 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i seriously hope that isn't hard to tell :P < 1277141817 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i do seriously want to put the fart language on the wiki, but don't worry i won't < 1277141817 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1277141819 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As a programming challenge, [I won the previous one, so I got to make the challenge], I asked the class to implement BF without [] < 1277141830 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was too hard, so I asked just for HQ9+ < 1277141838 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No one did it < 1277141853 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also this is not a relapse, i started making food. < 1277141853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Admittedly, I did make a mistake in what was supposed to be a hint] < 1277141866 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was too hard? :D < 1277141875 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy shit < 1277141884 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you mean no one cared to do it < 1277141910 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or no one was able to write a loop that loops over a string < 1277141914 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's at least one person who would have cared to do it, but he didn't know where to start < 1277141921 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: This was in bash, so... < 1277141937 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uni course? < 1277141951 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait you probably don't have anything else anymore given your age < 1277142006 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anything as fun as a competition doesn't exactly sound like uni stuff < 1277142011 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe our uni is boring < 1277142032 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: We have that AI competition, and it's at a university. < 1277142038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah i know < 1277142047 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't very many courses with that sort of stuff, though. < 1277142057 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a small inclass competition < 1277142083 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were supposed to have a competition on one course but then the lecturer never got to writing the platform thing so we ended up doing something retarded < 1277142087 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The embedded-systems course have this programmable car, and they have a car-racing competition along a (marked with masking tape) track at the lobby of the CS building. < 1277142106 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't do the course, but I've read the instructions once. < 1277142111 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol that sounds cool < 1277142134 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :NewNumber2 < 1277142138 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some sort of an exam before they let you run your stuff on the car, and I think the acceleration values were limited somehow, they're a bit worried about breaking their hardware. < 1277142149 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NewNumber2: did coppro retire? < 1277142161 0 :NewNumber2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: That would be telling. < 1277142173 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's the reference? < 1277142178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just checking < 1277142185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1277142185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1277142185 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1277142197 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay now this is starting to seem like a relapse < 1277142198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-> < 1277142227 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Looks like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9rAEyYqfjw -- except you already went. < 1277142231 0 :NewNumber2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Not unless the subtext of "The Prisoner" is much... deeper... than I had previously considered. < 1277142257 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Caution: not a very exciting video.) < 1277142437 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1277142611 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NewNumber2: i have no idea what that is, i'm going with coppro < 1277142628 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: me looks < 1277142674 0 :NewNumber2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :cpressey < 1277142712 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: tbh the actual race does not look very exciting :D < 1277142763 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes, it's mostly fun to watch when the cars go all wrong. < 1277142783 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like at the start of http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=6T_hvq2ptuQ < 1277142799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it's probably more fun to code than to spectate. < 1277142819 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Adding some rocket fuel could make it pretty exciting too.) < 1277142998 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there should be what is essentially BattleBots but with a live shell as the control. < 1277143018 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BattleBots? < 1277143041 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, like Robot Wars. < 1277143047 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was this show that aired on TechTV back in the day. US TV station, but I think the show is international (or at least non-US. There were lots of people with English accents) < 1277143050 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1277143052 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what it was called. < 1277143059 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think BattleBots is like a children's toy or something. :P < 1277143178 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@85-127-72-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1277143228 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a BattleBots show too. < 1277143287 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Wars was a USA based robot competition[1] from 1994-1997. Its considerably modified British equivalent was broadcast on BBC Two from 1998 until 2002, with its final series broadcast on Five in 2003." + "BattleBots is an American company that hosts robot competitions. BattleBots is also the name of the television show created from the competition footage." < 1277143317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a Finnish localization of one of those, don't know which one. < 1277143339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never watched it; using remote controls feels somehow like cheating to me, the bots ought to be autonomous. < 1277143355 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1277143361 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it wouldn't be as fun to watch. < 1277143363 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Abandonando < 1277143369 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you had some spot-on AI. < 1277143388 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's difficult in the real-world, outside of your neatly organized memory model. :) < 1277143455 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1277143460 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the robotic overlord issue. < 1277143487 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. yes. Slipped my mind. < 1277143537 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I'm programming sentient AI for robots with self-replication functionality... I never hardcode a manual shutdown mechanism out of sheer principle. < 1277143551 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would be murder. < 1277143574 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's your one ticket to fame: you'll be remembered in history books as the betrayer of the human race. < 1277143577 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It would be anti-evolution, which would be anti-life. You're not anti-life, are you? Of course now. < 1277143583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*not. < 1277143605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mhm, nice that the gift card works somewhere at least < 1277143633 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow I'm reminded of http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/grease_the_wheel/ for no particular reason. < 1277143671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay this is a strange new issue. My thinkpad on resume keeps having backlight set to 0 < 1277143676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or almost zero < 1277143683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one step it seems < 1277143699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange, it is on AC, it wasn't behaving like this yesterday < 1277143745 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading college-level students saying the simplistic things I've ever heard kind of causes me to lose hope in humanity. < 1277143750 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the most < 1277143755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another thing, why the fuck does the battery indicator in gnome think the battery is charging. It is not. It is a 50% charge and it won't begin to charge again until it reaches 20% < 1277143768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loves this thinkpad feature. Helps prolong battery life < 1277143799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo 100 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/stop_charge_thresh < 1277143799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo 20 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/start_charge_thresh < 1277143802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in rc.local :) < 1277143928 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use sysctl.conf < 1277143934 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1277143952 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, stop taunting me with your superior computer. < 1277143954 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though you can probably do better by not going to 100 < 1277143965 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going to 100 is actually pretty stressful on Li-ion < 1277144025 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't want to hurt its feelings. < 1277144043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, eh? < 1277144056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, how does sysctl.conf work for /sys? < 1277144061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, this isn't /proc/sys < 1277144062 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a crappy computer/ < 1277144065 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277144067 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sysfs.conf < 1277144074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, huh, never heard of that < 1277144097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, where would the file be? < 1277144099 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to install something for it < 1277144109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ah, rc.local seems better then < 1277144170 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Maintenance#Battery_treatment < 1277144193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1277144225 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... I wonder if sentient machines could formulate an ideal government/society. < 1277144258 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or if they are handicapped in this goal by sentience in the same way humans are. < 1277144410 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crappy computers > superior computers < 1277144418 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :choke on THAT, robot overlords! < 1277144426 0 :cal153!~cal@70.36.237.178 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277144746 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277144761 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1277144850 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans: talking monkeys with talking electric boxes < 1277145009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1277145130 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1277145133 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277145243 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sentient computers tend to be rather unrealistic. < 1277145481 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-10-157.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277145679 0 :casdoro1!~Casdoro@vc-41-16-165-106.umts.vodacom.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1277145968 0 :casdoro1!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1277147042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, btw on my thinkpad the smapi settings seems to stay as long as the battery is in, while that page on thinkwiki suggests it only stays as long as AC is in < 1277148250 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277148417 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@85-127-72-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1277148967 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277149074 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@85-127-72-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1277149118 0 :Geekthras!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1277149319 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277149496 0 :Geekthras!~geekthras@adsl-99-39-2-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277149730 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh crap < 1277149742 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stony Brook doesn't have a Computer Science MS, afaict < 1277149752 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MS? < 1277149915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't MS something you see on boats? < 1277149924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the names I mean < 1277149964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, "motor ship" according to wikipedia < 1277149973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a compsci boat sounds fun though < 1277149993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably not what Sgeo meant < 1277150011 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION meant master's < 1277150014 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1277150016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1277150070 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, change university then? I mean, once I'm done with my bachelor, I'm not going to continue at this university. Only compsci master they have is about AI, and that is boring < 1277150079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so going to switch university then. < 1277150098 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I know several AI Ph.D.s or candidates < 1277150115 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, PhD's are boring too! < 1277150125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes but I find the subject boring < 1277150146 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's just that I want some sort of CompSci degree, and not "Computer Programming/Information Systems" < 1277150177 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: That's all the BSc covers these days at most schools, isn't it. < 1277150241 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look, here's Java! And this is what an algorithm looks like! And an OS! Oh, now spend 60 hours straight on this "software engineering" project! Great, now go away! < 1277150263 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-32-79.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1277150338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, heh, so true < 1277150356 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1277150357 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1277150717 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, this is why I have firmly resolved not to go into CS. < 1277150792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Good move. Although what other fields are there for a young, aspiring computer geek? EE will rot your brain, while Mathematics will destroy your soul... < 1277150820 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. < 1277150835 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have AnMaster's first-born child's soul. < 1277150840 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not exactly short. < 1277150845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you don't < 1277150858 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it in potentia. < 1277150861 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Always good to be prepared for these things. < 1277150863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, not that either < 1277150888 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have the soul of someone I know in real life. < 1277150891 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was considering Computer Engineering. < 1277150896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, there was some basic EE stuff in this CS course. I can easily see how more of it would not be a good idea < 1277150914 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think I'll probably stick to Computer Science, as I know for certain that I enjoy it. < 1277150917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mathematics yeah... I hate analysis < 1277150954 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though computer engineers have a higher median salary... CS salary isn't really that shabby either. < 1277150994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, this compsci is closer to compeng to tell the truth. But most are nowdays < 1277151005 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compeng? < 1277151008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1277151015 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love these portmanteaux. < 1277151021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :extrapolating from compsci, computer engineering must be compeng < 1277151024 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: really? My university's programming is pretty much strictly programming. < 1277151042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, yes but that isn't compsci really. compsci is way more theoretical < 1277151054 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, so what does computer engineering entail? < 1277151056 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proper compsci is a math discipline < 1277151060 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah. Then perhaps you're talking about Software Engineering < 1277151063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, exactly < 1277151067 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Computer Engineering is basically EE but specialized. < 1277151077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, hm. < 1277151078 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EE? < 1277151083 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :electrical engineering. < 1277151084 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You guys want software engineering < 1277151085 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1277151100 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at my university there's practicalyly no difference between software engineering and compsci < 1277151101 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right, so it would be designing chips and such? < 1277151114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I want compsci but I get a tiny bit of compsci with mostly softeng mixed up with some compeng :/ < 1277151119 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I mean... it would be ridiculous to dump someone in a theoretical computer science class without teaching them programming basics first. < 1277151122 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The observation was that "proper compsci" is really rare these days, at most schools < 1277151132 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is :( < 1277151138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed :( < 1277151139 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes. < 1277151145 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully I'm going to UW < 1277151150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uw? < 1277151162 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I told you. We need an acronym counting bot. < 1277151167 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :University of Waterloo < 1277151176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277151183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, which country? < 1277151203 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canada < 1277151209 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do believe later courses will be more thereotical. I have to take a complexity theory class... though I'm already way ahead of that. < 1277151256 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it sad that my best laugh in a long time was in response to someone posting a picture of a clam to someone saying "I'm sure a this thread will contain a clam and reasonable discussion of religion and Apple." < 1277151258 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1277151278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, according to powertop, ubuntu lucid is by default way worse than jaunty < 1277151290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not sure how to fix most of that < 1277151297 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't really go to university for the knowledge (though it is nice to have knowledgable professors to discuss things with). I'm purely interested in the credentials. I can learn at my own leisure just about whatever I want. < 1277151340 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not too upset that my compsci degree won't include much theoretics. < 1277151350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, don't know, however: it is sad that you ask us about opinions on such things all the time < 1277151362 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I went for the piece of paper too. But made good use of the library access while I was there. Plus *some* of the courses were not lame. < 1277151368 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, does anyone here actually have a BA or higher in compsci? < 1277151380 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BA? No, mine's a BSC. < 1277151381 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: the library access is quite nice. And yes, I agree. < 1277151386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BA? BSC? < 1277151386 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... right < 1277151390 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not BA < 1277151397 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BS :D < 1277151406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible. Some Uni's treat it and math as arts. < 1277151408 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go figure. < 1277151409 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going for a BMath myself < 1277151417 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I mean I can see math not being a science. < 1277151419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't even called that in Sweden < 1277151465 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Computer Music Journal is great. :D < 1277151477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1277151482 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives me ideas for all the awesome experimental computer music I've yet to make. < 1277151490 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Talking about awesome libraries. < 1277151493 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at universities. < 1277151502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I meant that journal thingy < 1277151511 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's exactly what it sounds like. :D < 1277151515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, online? < 1277151520 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... part of it is. < 1277151523 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1277151525 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :through... MIT press I think. < 1277151548 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think the newer ones are on there though. Academia likes to be non-open for whatever reason. < 1277151561 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mitpressjournals.org/cmj < 1277151600 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One project I have in mind is transforming a wii-mote into a musical instruments / MIDI controller < 1277151618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, it needs cookies < 1277151622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how silly < 1277151633 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...do you have your browser set to ask you about such things? < 1277151642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and I click no all the time < 1277151642 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cares not about cookies. < 1277151667 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've yet to witness any detrimental impact to accepting all cookies yet. < 1277151723 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, other way around actually. The online version has new issues but not old. < 1277151728 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the old ones are the best though. < 1277151755 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're all great. All interesting ways to create and process digital audio signals. < 1277151791 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really wish there was a somewhat decent DSP language/library out there. Haskell has one but I'm not sure if it's really up-to-par with domain-specific languages like csound. < 1277151820 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but csound has crappy general-purpose support in terms of state and control structures. Just really solid digital signal processing. < 1277152111 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one day I'd like to have a really nice composition environment. Like a shell of some kind connected to a musical score with optional MIDI output. < 1277152122 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algoritihmic composition. :) < 1277152164 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Although I used to compose, I've never been too heavily into "computer music", such as it is. < 1277152205 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that I never learned piano, so a computer's the only instrument I can compose on :) < 1277152207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/524281 <-- argh < 1277152223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this will be a PITA when using it on battery for a while < 1277152283 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm not too keen on most of it. I simply use it as educational material. I vastly prefer more popular varieties of electronic music (well, that's not entirely true either. Only the "good" stuff, of course. :P ) < 1277152316 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1277152338 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course, I don't solely like electronic music. < 1277152355 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1277152431 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, Hack and Ego down? < 1277152485 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I think all music should ship with a parallel MIDI version, so that we can write visualizers that aren't lame. < 1277152509 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha... yeah that'd be pretty sweet. At least for electronic music where MIDI is used and makes sense < 1277152521 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1277152525 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work too well with analog sources. Still doing the same pattern matching you'd be doing in visualizer software. < 1277152527 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! < 1277152532 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, even for non-electronic, it would at least give it a "click track" it could follow. < 1277152538 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some really impressive visualizers these days though. Have yo seen Milkdrop? < 1277152547 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ok i give up < 1277152561 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bow before me! < 1277152569 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No, I have to say I've not been following development in that area. < 1277152578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION kneels and kisses Phantom_Hoover's disembodied toes < 1277152600 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said bow! < 1277152604 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's pretty stunning. Very, uh, trippy. It syncs to tempo automatically. Don't even ask me how. < 1277152637 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shoots Phantom_Hoover with a bow and arrow, which passes straight through and hits CakeProphet < 1277152678 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is dark. you are likely to be eaten by a grue. < 1277152703 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks around for jabb < 1277152707 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, no grue here < 1277152713 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jabb? < 1277152729 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there an IRC client that just lets you pipe to/from stdio? < 1277152735 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would make writing an IRC bot far more convenient. < 1277152736 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nc < 1277152786 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: aka grue@something < 1277152800 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION cannot find him in any recent logs < 1277152850 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: well, sort of. nc would work but then I might as well just do it via language. < 1277152856 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was looking for some more abstraction. < 1277152915 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's not much else to abstract < 1277152920 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRC protocol is very simple < 1277152941 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: There is apparently a piece of spyware out there called "IRC Pipe"... < 1277152958 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not suggesting you build on top of spyware tho. < 1277153104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : so what's the puzzle today, oerjan < 1277153107 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, what? < 1277153113 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: psh, what are you talking about. That's fool-proof < 1277153209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i found this nice math, computing and complexity blog btw, http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/ < 1277153232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i learned about a result there that is _almost_ like a puzzle < 1277153255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes oklopol is long time idle < 1277153431 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, what boolean functions can you compute by chaining computations that can only look at one bit of the input each, and only pass a _bounded_ amount of data to the next one, but unlike an FSA you can have several of them looking at the same input bit < 1277153439 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/barrington-gets-simple/ < 1277153496 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erik Zeeman conjectured that one cannot untie a knot on a four-sphere. I am not a topologist, but it seems like a reasonable conjecture. < 1277153499 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1277153500 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :topology confuses me to no end. < 1277153567 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, that seems obvious. < 1277153587 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't untie knots in 3-space, and the "surface" of a 4-sphere is 3-space. < 1277153636 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well see < 1277153658 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue what a 4-sphere is. Unless it's a 4-dimensional sphere. And then I still have trouble imagining it... but will simply recognize that it could be defined. < 1277153671 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, it's a 4D sphere. < 1277153683 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Truth: After trying to prove this for almost ten years, one day he worked on the opposite direction, and solved it in hours. < 1277153685 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and surprisingly the answer is "all of them, using only 5 possible passing-on values" (the 5 i deduced myself from the article) < 1277153716 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's impossible to directly visualise, but you can model it mentally pretty easily. < 1277153753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: iirc from the comments that knot conjecture was wrongly quoted, it should be a kind of 2-dimension knot or something < 1277153763 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also nsound, which is csound-inspired but tries to make the programming parts better. Don't have any personal experiences with it. (There's this one audio-processing-tuned library I distinctly remember, but I've completely forgotten the name, trying to Google for it.) < 1277153769 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you have a 2D knot? < 1277153795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well some 2D generalization of a knot < 1277153809 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does that work? < 1277153837 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_synthesis_environments has some sort of list. (But I can't find the one I ran across.) < 1277153845 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since a "2D line" is a point. < 1277153849 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, CakeProphet: something crossed my mind recently re computer music. Either of you know of any musical instrument simulators? i.e. they take the laws of physics, and a description of the instrument, and produce the noise it makes? < 1277153849 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh really? Haven't heard of it. I'll look into it. Sounds like what I want (though I could probably just use some IPC, or attempt to learn the Haskell library) < 1277153857 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can't do many interesting things with a point < 1277153862 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: i _think_ that a 4-sphere may actually be a sphere in R^5, so it's shifted by 1. < 1277153883 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, fizzie, cpressey, We're mathematicsing now. < 1277153892 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...meh. < 1277153894 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, shifted? < 1277153894 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no thanks. < 1277153907 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I get it now. < 1277153911 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Topic fight!!! < 1277153914 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The acoustics lab at our university has been building some string instrument simulators, but of course it's university research, so there's no real products, just papers. < 1277153924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about a one-sphere? < 1277153945 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I was wondering if it would be particularly hard to simulate an electric guitar... < 1277153945 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that would be a circle, then < 1277153955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how do you get a dot then? 0-sphere? < 1277153960 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, on the (4D) surface of a 4-sphere you can always untie a knot. < 1277153975 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just Maxwell's equations and a vibrating conductor and a stationary magnet, really. < 1277153980 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"For any natural number n, an n-sphere of radius r is defined as the set of points in (n + 1)-dimensional Euclidean space which are at distance r from a central point, where the radius r may be any positive real number." < 1277153989 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wikipedia) < 1277154011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, but that causes a headache for 1-dimensional! < 1277154018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to say 0-sphere < 1277154019 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a 0-sphere is 2 dots < 1277154040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right. what about a (-1)-sphere? < 1277154044 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :infinity-sphere. BOOM HEADSPLOSION. < 1277154072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, since infinity + 1 = infinity it will actually match in that special case ;P < 1277154082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a (-1)-sphere is the empty set. and iirc there were some theorems in algebraic topology that fit with all of this. < 1277154082 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aleph-null-sphere. < 1277154095 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: For the acoustic guitar, the corresponding our-university project page is http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/research/asp/aguitar/ -- no publications past 2005, so perhaps it's not very active right now. < 1277154107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, aleph-zero is a more common name iirc < 1277154128 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aleph-nought, too. < 1277154130 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Reaktor is a very nice environment for DSP. Unfortunately it's $579. < 1277154148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, aleph zero is more common than that too < 1277154148 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although "nought" is apparently an archaism in the US, so. < 1277154163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it isn't in the UK iirc? < 1277154168 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1277154169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that is all that matters IMO < 1277154173 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure someone's tried to model the electric sli^H^H^guitar too. < 1277154190 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, but there are American mathematicians, much as I hate to admit it. < 1277154193 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Interesting. I was thinking electric would be easier, because there's no air or sounding chamber involved -- the electric waveform gets translated directly to the sound wave. < 1277154209 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "aleph-nought" wouldn't be used often by them. < 1277154223 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And we were discussing common prononciations. < 1277154233 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, I can never spell that word. < 1277154234 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the only time I hear "nought" is in the phrase "all for nought" < 1277154236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, sure. aleph-zero is neutral and fine IMO < 1277154247 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pronunciations. < 1277154253 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IT MAKES NO SENSE. < 1277154259 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1277154261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what does? aleph-zero? < 1277154266 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. English. < 1277154268 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I frequently use it when speaking. < 1277154272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277154299 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, and the parent page -- http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/research/asp/ -- has links to kantele synthesis; can't say I'd be very surprised if it turned out no-one else than Finns were doing *that*. < 1277154306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: a 1d (ordinary) knot is an embedding of a circle into R^3. since a circle is a 1-sphere, a 2d knot would probably be an embedding of a 2-sphere (i.e. ordinary sphere) into R^4. < 1277154345 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well, it does get transferred directly. But you still need to synthesize the resonance frequencies and such. The somewhat naive way to do it is to use a waveshaping function (aka distortion) on an FM synthesized wave. < 1277154349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, katele? < 1277154349 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I meant a knot embedded in r^2. < 1277154372 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh. well that would be 2 points then. not very interesting :D < 1277154378 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "The kantele is a traditional Finnish plucked string instrument with five metal strings in its basic form." < 1277154379 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but you could get more complicated. I don't know much about physical modelling techniques unfortunately. < 1277154383 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, exactly. < 1277154396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1277154403 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I guess you're right - physically modelling a vibrating string is still, uh, non-trivial. < 1277154411 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the thing about untying knots on a 4-sphere is therefore presumably referring to 2-knots. < 1277154411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, I quite like the norwegian hardangerfela (spelling?) < 1277154420 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at oerjan  < 1277154433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And: "Research and synthesis of the tanbur, a traditional Turkish long-necked lute, the ud, a short-necked arabic lute, and the Renaissance lute". Our tax money at work there. < 1277154447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1277154449 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And any knot that is untyable in flat 4-space is untyable on a 4-sphere. < 1277154510 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what does untying a knot mean? getting a straight piece of string? or getting a single loop? < 1277154524 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, getting a circle, in topology. < 1277154527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ah < 1277154540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hardingfele is the usual word in norwegian < 1277154542 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since all line segments can be straightened. < 1277154553 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i see danish wp uses hardanger < 1277154561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, heh < 1277154574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and Swedish one? Don't have browser handy atm < 1277154575 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's from the same geography name, anyhow < 1277154576 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SuperCollider looks interesting for sound synthesis. Has a decent programming language too. < 1277154583 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dynamic and functional. < 1277154588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah anyway, quite a nice sound. < 1277154594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you should get someone to synth that < 1277154622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah the swedish actually explains the name development < 1277154626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, just watch out for black holes < 1277154629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh? < 1277154638 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hardingfelan (av den numera formella namnformen Hardangerfela, efter det norska landskapet Hardanger; i dagligt tal vanligen endast Harding)" < 1277154647 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could suggest the acoustics lab people; that second set of strings sounds interesting. < 1277154649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah < 1277154664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, shame on you for that not being on the norwegian wiki < 1277154665 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the knot problem seems pretty trivial. < 1277154676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm does the norwegian wp use bokmål or nynorsk? < 1277154684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, cool < 1277154732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw those synthed instruments, there is no software to hook it up to a midi program is there? < 1277154765 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about an instrument with a plane vibrating in 4D? < 1277154774 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think they've managed to release much code. But you can always reimplement the algorithms. :p < 1277154792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true. Don't have access to all those journals though < 1277154831 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Do you (or anyone else here) do any (non-algorithmic) composition? If so, I'd be interested in what software you use. < 1277154832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A lot of their research is available from acoustics.hut.fi; conference papers, anyway. Journal articles might not be. < 1277154848 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or if anyone remembers what software Gregor uses :) < 1277154857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm right < 1277154864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knot_theory#Higher_dimensions < 1277154877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Gregor perhaps? < 1277154899 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming he's not here right now. Happy to be proven wrong of course. < 1277154905 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are two distinct wikipedias for bokmål and nynorsk < 1277154912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, sec for link < 1277154916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, http://codu.org/music/ < 1277154916 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Since conference papers are usually 4 pages and you need to present results and stuff, not just methods, there's usually a *very* compact (and often incomplete) description of the algorithms involved, though. < 1277154926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, Gregor's site < 1277154937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, XD < 1277154949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :/ < 1277154961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in fact the nynorsk one has some articles with variants in "høgnorsk", a more archaic form < 1277154969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, XD < 1277154977 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: not much composition at all, really. But I use Ableton Live for general-purpose recording of electronic music. Though it's not technically for "composition" (no musical score or anything). It's an expensive program (or rather, an expensive copyright. torrents ftw :P) < 1277155005 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has broken several laws in his lifetime. Frequently. < 1277155013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: theoretically the bokmål one should have corresponding "riksmål" variants but i cannot recall seeing that < 1277155024 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We all have recommendations to get also source code published whenever possible, but due to economical realities (papers == funding) it doesn't happen so often. < 1277155029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we take our language history _seriously_ :D < 1277155030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, good the English aren't like you. Or we would not only have en-us.wikipedia.org en-gb.wikipedia.org but also en-cockney.wikipedia.org and so on < 1277155042 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there is simple english, though < 1277155061 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/demos/ has guitar synthesis audio clips, however. :p < 1277155062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, true, but that is for a somewhat different purpose and reason < 1277155080 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And banjo.) < 1277155109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to use an old version of Cakewalk. One that writes files that no subsequent version of Cakewalk can read... < 1277155115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, quite good < 1277155126 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The song was performed live with a MIDI keyboard -- "; so obviously they *have* wired the code into a MIDI pipe, they just don't let anyone else have it. :p < 1277155126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but doesn't sound sampled, not high enough quality for that < 1277155149 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... codu.org isn't responding for me. < 1277155153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, works here < 1277155177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, okay it just died < 1277155178 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difficult of simulation of acoustic instruments isn't really the spectrum of the waveform or even the mathematical complexity of constructing said waveform. It's the dynamics we hear from the human performer. You can get a lot of expressiveness out of a good hardware controller. Barring that, a sophisticated attack-sustain-decay-release for each overtone does the job. < 1277155183 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*difficulty < 1277155184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you should have been quicker! < 1277155218 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION realises that there are now websites dedicated to giving Facebook users endless mountains of crap to "like". < 1277155226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a bit sad that sampled is still better than their stuff < 1277155227 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to kill someone at the moment. < 1277155268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So.... Rosegarden? < 1277155270 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sampled is reality; it's hard to beat that. < 1277155283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true < 1277155288 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And FluidSynth for the mp3 rendering? < 1277155289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, some are recorded live iirc? < 1277155295 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: well... < 1277155297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, if you mean codu.org < 1277155304 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2010/06/19/guessing-the-truth/#comment-3706 < 1277155308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and he uses good samples for the fluidsynth cases < 1277155311 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean "what software does Gregor use" < 1277155312 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: if you sample guitar tones and then play them back with MIDI keyboard... it will not sound like a guitar. < 1277155337 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will sound like guitar tones mapped to keyboard keys. < 1277155359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, rosegarden yes iirc. And sometimes he uses fluidsynth with good samples, in other cases he records himself playing < 1277155361 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so it's not as clear cut with 2-knots in 5-space? < 1277155394 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: But if you can get a human performer behind the controls of a synthesized instrument... < 1277155399 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: AnMaster and probably JACK, of course. < 1277155418 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: right. < 1277155423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, no idea < 1277155451 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Current state-of-the-art (if you just need a single voice and don't mind horrible amounts of work to prepare it) in speech synthesis (AFAIK) is still concatenative synthesis, basically sewing small snippets of recorded speech together (with quite a few tricks in the concatenation and segment-selection, but still). < 1277155455 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jack is basically a plug-in interface. You take programs that support JACK and plug together their inputs/outputs however you like. < 1277155458 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: But JACK isn't really a... tool, is it? I thought it was more like ... glue. < 1277155459 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite useful. < 1277155470 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: same difference, really. < 1277155478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I know what jack is. I used it. It is however a bitch to get working < 1277155480 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, ok. < 1277155489 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: very true. < 1277155499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, now codu responds < 1277155538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now it doesn't? < 1277155582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh slow as heck < 1277155597 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm thinking of getting back into composition. I don't have a KB, but my composition paradigm doesn't really make full use of one anyway -- I grew up on things like SidPic and Deluxe Music Construction Set and MED (an Amiga tracker editor). I'm hoping RoseGarden will fit into this paradigm. < 1277155621 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *looks* a lot like DMCS :) < 1277155626 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: buy a wii-mote... or make something similar. get an IR port of some kind. epicness ensues. < 1277155639 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw a youtube video that used a wii-mote to implement a virtual drum machine. < 1277155644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: *Composition*, not *conducting*. Duh. < 1277155645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1277155652 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are other uses. Continuous pitch ranges and such < 1277155662 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oh, right. psh. performance is so much more fun though. < 1277155673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well i don't actually know this stuff myself, just linking :D < 1277155707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... I did, until recently, have a physical trombone... virtually replace it with a wii-bone? Hmm... < 1277155757 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds too erotic. < 1277155762 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(lulz) < 1277155781 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I once got FlightGear running with a Wii remote as the joystick. < 1277155789 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am rather proud of that. < 1277155812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I never got the jokes about wii and erotic... *shrug* < 1277155825 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like a fun new way to crash into mountains! < 1277155833 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't do much of that. < 1277155848 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly because I tested it in KSFO, where there aren't any mountains. < 1277155851 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just hills. < 1277155861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would use my nice saitek x52 pro for flying < 1277155888 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't crash into mountains :P < 1277155889 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on whether or not you want to record electronic style music... have some kind of control surface/device is very very handy. In Ableton Live you can assign MIDI knobs/sliders to various virtual parameters. I'm not sure if you could use this approach with Ableton Live, but you could make a software MIDI wrapper over the IR input and then plug that into JACK or something. < 1277155896 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*having < 1277155917 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The PS3 sixaxis reports itself as a HID joystick with 28 analog axes, according to what I read during the recent USB discussion. That should be enough for everyone! (If they were usable for anything; it's just that most of the buttons on the thing are pressure-sensitive, and therefore reported both as on/off buttons as well as analog axes.) < 1277155918 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, bam, MIDI wii controller/instrument. < 1277155938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how many buttons? < 1277155940 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: my god. 28 axes? < 1277155955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, while the saitek x52 pro only has 10 axis, it has 38 buttons < 1277155962 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could awkwardly control so many musical paramters with my thumb... I can't even imagine. < 1277155965 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well some are on the same, but the button pressed different ways < 1277155977 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, stop having better hardware than me. < 1277155982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, what? < 1277156001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, my desktop is crap as I said, sempron 3300+ with geforce 7600 < 1277156001 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joysticks, ThinkPads, other cool things... < 1277156009 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pah! < 1277156014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, however it does have a SB Live 5.1 sound card < 1277156017 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best sound card ever < 1277156018 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't *have* a desktop. < 1277156021 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beat that! < 1277156024 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 8 pressure-sensitive buttons and a pressure-sensitive d-pad (so 4 more). And then two analog sticks (two more axes of freedom), 2 analog trigger buttons, three digital on/off-only buttons, and 6 axes of motion-sensing (I don't exactly know what those are). < 1277156039 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I bet my friend has a more awesome card. M-audio 1010LT (I think) < 1277156041 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what do sound cards actually do? < 1277156048 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Actually... I *am* interested in *some* algorithmic aspects -- I would probably go to code before I would go to recording analog inputs to do pitch bends and so forth. But I'm not sure. I've been fooling around with chiptune-like effects in C64 6502 recently. Not in seriousness. < 1277156052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well, most awesome consumer level card maybe < 1277156061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, m-audio sounds like a pro card < 1277156065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is way out of my league < 1277156065 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, maybe for phase sweep. < 1277156092 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It has like 10 analog inputs, a mic-input with pre-amp, MIDI inputs, and I think 4 digital inputs. It's a mass of wires coming out of the back of his desktop case. < 1277156094 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION liked topology more. < 1277156103 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*10 analog inputs and outputs < 1277156111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, hardware mixer? hardware midi? < 1277156125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, and hardware midi I mean synth in hardware < 1277156131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you can load samples into < 1277156143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardware mixer I bet it has < 1277156155 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno about either of thus. Dunno why you would want a hardware synth on your soundcard. :P < 1277156161 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, I believe it has a mixer. < 1277156163 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well mine has < 1277156170 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Topological music. < 1277156173 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least there's a software interface for a mixer... dunno how it's implemented though. < 1277156176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I would be surprised if it didn't mix in hardware < 1277156183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my sb live does < 1277156186 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, right, let's do that. < 1277156208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, after all, hardware midi means it offloads the CPU, which is nice when you have a 72 MB soundfont < 1277156209 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We don't describe notes in terms of their concrete relationships like pitch and duration, we just... er... < 1277156224 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1010LT: http://www.m-audio.com/images/global/product_pics/big/delta1010lt_v2008.jpg < 1277156227 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice connector-squid there. < 1277156229 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but yeah, it's the sickest sound card I've seen so far. When I get my future desktop, and can spare the cash, I'll probably get one. It's basically the best sound card for professional recording I've found. < 1277156230 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to figure out what it would mean for a set of music events to be "connected" < 1277156239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh ouch < 1277156262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, not staccato? < 1277156280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the word for it slipped my mind atm < 1277156291 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :generally if they similar attack/decay times we perceive a musical event as atomic. < 1277156294 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+have < 1277156361 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So silence between notes = holes in a deformable object, maybe. < 1277156368 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: According to the product description I saw when looking for the photo, "All Delta cards contain a 36-bit embedded DSP enabling a software-driven patchbay/router for all analog and digital I/O—all with extremely fast throughput for low-latency software monitoring." In other words, yes, it has a "hardware mixer" (and more), as long as you count the completely programmable DSP on the sound card as part of hardware. < 1277156377 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a chord is one musical event. Though with chords we can pick out the individual notes. There are actually distances in pitch called "critical bands" that we perceive as seperate tones. Anything inside a critical band sounds like a single tone. < 1277156384 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why 36? < 1277156388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, sounds like stretching concepts way past the point where it broke < 1277156395 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not even a multiple of 8. < 1277156403 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What channel do you think this is, man? < 1277156409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Probably a few spare bits to avoid clippingsy problems. < 1277156413 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, touche < 1277156432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: however, the fact that wikipedia section said the results for smooth knots were different from piecewise linear ones makes me suspect the higher-dimensional cases are _very_ subtle < 1277156494 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another propery of critical bands is they become wider in the lower octaves. That is why chords in lower octaves need to be spaced out in order to sound like chords... otherwise the spectra of each note will blend into one pitch and we will perceive it as dissonant . < 1277156535 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, CakeProphet, stop having such similar names. < 1277156541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, you just made me think "three man critical band" ;P < 1277156544 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, higher dimensions are annoying. < 1277156572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do vaguely recall that there was a lot that *could* be done by reprogramming the EMU10k DSP chip on SB Lives, it just wasn't very documented stuff. < 1277156584 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has something to do with actual physical space on the basilar membrane of the ear, and which sections are used to detect given parts of our psychoacoustic spectrum. < 1277156584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true < 1277156587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, never tried it myself < 1277156589 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the odds are that if you pick some topic completely at random a) someone in this channel will be an expert or b) someone in this channel could get an expert in the channel in 48 hours < 1277156595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but pretty sure that is the case yes < 1277156608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, :D < 1277156616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, I know it isn't 1 at least < 1277156624 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E-MU does pro-level audio stuff, after all. < 1277156639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, there have been things that no one in here knew about. Forgot what though < 1277156647 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nonetheless, it's pretty high compared to random groupings of people < 1277156652 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ask them about real life. < 1277156657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, true < 1277156665 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I have one of those < 1277156674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, also I suspect a lot of us are experts at appearing like experts < 1277156679 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :psh, not me. < 1277156680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Phantom_Hoover: well i don't actually know this stuff myself, just linking :D < 1277156681 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true < 1277156683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see that for example < 1277156684 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Real life", does it have something to do with the 8088 real mode? < 1277156688 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then again, what is the definition of expert? < 1277156705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, we need a philosophy expert for that < 1277156706 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, though I have no formal training, I consider myself an expert when it comes to c++ < 1277156707 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*C++ < 1277156711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone? please raise your hand! < 1277156717 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then protected life would be 32-bit and a pig to set up. < 1277156726 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I took a class....? < 1277156730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, XD < 1277156733 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1277156753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, and I consider myself pretty good at C, though ais523 might beat me there. < 1277156767 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean coding C++, just knowledge < 1277156777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, same, hasn't been coding C much recently < 1277156786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did before < 1277156796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I guess I'm the resident erlang expert. Since cpressey isn't here all the time < 1277156815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, I'm so fantastically bad at Erlang < 1277156836 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, you know erlang? I didn't know < 1277156841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I assume that was sarcasm) < 1277156867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: jumpin' jumpin' < 1277156869 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1277156870 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not an expert at anything. < 1277156882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, at the languages you created? < 1277156897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait, Deewiant probably knows more about befunge98 than anyone else here < 1277156897 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1277156900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even you < 1277156906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, wb! < 1277156907 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: stuff like " thisfunction2 thislineofcode")) but have stan actually reference pete. < 1277156911 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I consider myself the resident fungot expert, but that's a rather specialized field of knowledge. < 1277156911 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: " eeek"? yeah, do is in r5rs?? i was just trying < 1277156917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well yes < 1277156922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, and I won't challenge that title < 1277156927 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: however i've also read in general that there are many ways in which dimensions 3 and 4 are the _hardest_ to analyze, more so than both lower and higher ones. < 1277156931 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I probably have the most experience programming while under various hallucinogens on this channel.. but I'm not really sure if that is a skill or a psychic power. < 1277156948 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why? < 1277156954 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know it, but I'm really bad at programming it < 1277156962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, ah < 1277156976 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: A bit esoteric, wouldn't you say? < 1277156982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, not too bad at that myself I think. Though I might overestimate my skills. Hard to tell. < 1277156993 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dare say I would. < 1277157006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, but that is what this channel is about < 1277157031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, heh I realised why ais is holding back feather. So he can be the world's leading expert on it < 1277157031 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1277157038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since no one else knows much about it yet < 1277157045 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1277157047 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Feather? < 1277157061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, time traveling language that lets you modify the syntax of the language in the past < 1277157063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically < 1277157070 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1277157084 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some sneaking suspicion that I've inadvertently become the world's leading expert on some esoteric portion of C++ < 1277157089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, it does cause not end of headaches it seems < 1277157096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, heh < 1277157098 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, definitely second place < 1277157103 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a spec anywhere? < 1277157107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, no < 1277157108 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1277157112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, the spec isn't finished < 1277157117 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has it ever been described? < 1277157120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : anyone? please raise your hand! <-- and if there are any experts here on telekinesis, raise _my_ hand < 1277157122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, who would hold the first place? < 1277157130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, on irc, that is all < 1277157137 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. < 1277157141 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: A David Vandervoorde. < 1277157147 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Groan expert. < 1277157149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, never heard of him < 1277157149 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I am an expert of the Pokemon gameboy games. But nothing else, not the television series or anything related to it. < 1277157161 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only other person I know to have implemented the attributes specification from C++0x < 1277157176 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, unlike me, actually a member of the standard committee < 1277157176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and well, ais said he needed to implement it while working on the spec. Since he wasn't sure what would work < 1277157188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and that hasn't happened yet < 1277157193 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: something like higher dimensions having more wiggle room for stuff < 1277157209 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: sounds technical. :D < 1277157245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, of course. There is an extra dimension to wiggle in < 1277157251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course there is more wiggle room thus < 1277157263 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not necessarily. < 1277157273 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other dimension might be tiny. < 1277157287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, mathematically they could be anything you want < 1277157294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, plus: tiny > nothing < 1277157299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they might not be. < 1277157305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, see ^ < 1277157306 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :consider dimensions that ate only one-element sets. WHAT THEN? < 1277157315 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: intuitively, 3 and 4 are big enough to let you make complicated stuff but not big enough to let you straighten it out. or something. < 1277157315 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are. < 1277157315 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And tiny is still < biggish < 1277157316 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1277157323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, true but better than nothing < 1277157325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(very vague intuition, there :D) < 1277157359 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to imagine where the fourth axis would be in a world of 4D space. :D < 1277157367 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am probably not high enough. < 1277157385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what a 4D game would be like. < 1277157400 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, been done. < 1277157407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, yeah but a space game iirc? < 1277157414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, I meant, something like a RPG < 1277157417 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, it goes at right angles to everything else. < 1277157445 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, how would a 4th dimension affect the RPG mechanic? < 1277157450 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I need more space than the infinite space I imagine things in... < 1277157453 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: "where" is a limiting concept, obviously < 1277157455 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs moar anglez < 1277157461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, think what theifs could do! < 1277157469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, get into to a box without picking the lock < 1277157482 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION leans back, loses balance, and falls through the wall < 1277157494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, and perhaps that < 1277157494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: topologically, the _size_ of a dimension doesn't matter. although whether it curves back on itself might. < 1277157495 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if you can biject R^2 onto R. < 1277157508 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I was referring to curves. < 1277157517 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm. < 1277157519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, well, can you biject C onto R? that should result in the same thing, shouldn't it? < 1277157526 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, you have to go at right angles to reality to fall though things. < 1277157529 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, yes. < 1277157538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and iirc they are bijectable, forgot how though < 1277157545 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :biject R^2 onto R? I don't *think* so... < 1277157553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe I misremember < 1277157559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Diagonalize? < 1277157568 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uncountability almost certainly factors into it. < 1277157569 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps P!=NP, and instead P=R^3 ....so really when I write to a hash table I'm really teleporting through space. < 1277157569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, both are uncountably infinite, could be tricky to diagonalize? < 1277157571 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you can biject R^2 onto R as long as you don't require continuity < 1277157581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how? < 1277157599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, bad joke < 1277157605 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, continuity? < 1277157617 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, even below OGS (Oerjan Groan Standard) < 1277157622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / / < 1277157633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: rubik's hypercube might be an interesting game. hm, i should google if it exists already < 1277157644 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: More of a thought experiment to imagine what that would imply. < 1277157648 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I never got the hang of the 3D version so... < 1277157661 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, definitely exists < 1277157662 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but I guess thought experiments are pretty bad jokes. BAM. < 1277157673 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so biject(1, 1) and biject(1.1, 1.1) would give completely different results? < 1277157677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well, I thought it was a bad joke < 1277157692 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are correct. < 1277157700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, since I couldn't make sense of it as anything esle < 1277157714 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes, it exists, and it hurts my brain < 1277157725 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://people.math.gatech.edu/~berglund/Rubik/index.html < 1277157787 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate 4D projections onto 3-space. < 1277157800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1277157831 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually 6D is easier for me to imagine than 4D... because I can just picture two 3D spaces. < 1277157835 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that co-exist. < 1277157844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I can't imagine that either < 1277157854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the bijection cannot be a continuous function, this is part of what is known as Brouwer's theorem of Invariance of domain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariance_of_domain < 1277157896 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1277157915 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, this implies that 4-space can be embedded in 3-space. < 1277157928 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Embedded < 1277157934 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<=>bijected, whaever. < 1277157941 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/whaever/whatever/ < 1277157963 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why is space 3D? < 1277157970 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHILOSOPHY TIEM. < 1277157987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because more would be silly? < 1277157991 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the smallest possible space for us to have the perception of it that we do. < 1277158001 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, Stephen Hawking said something about that. < 1277158014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, the same could be said for 4D if we lived in 4D < 1277158016 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something to do with orbits being unstable in >3D. < 1277158030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, so string theory is false? < 1277158034 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: For all we know, we do live in 4D. We just can't see it. < 1277158055 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it's to do with the inverse square law. < 1277158059 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :String theory is not just false, it's a load of hooey. < 1277158062 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fourth dimension is an awesome-to-fail gradient. < 1277158068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, which isn't an accurate desc < 1277158081 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: bijecting R^2 with R is easy, if you ignore the 0.99999... = 1.0000... issue (and that's easy to fix up afterwards). just interleave the bits of the two numbers. oh and sign, but that's also easy to fix. < 1277158087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, "hooey"? < 1277158098 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there are 4 conventional space dimensions, it becomes an inverse cube law, and orbital deviations are magnified hugely. < 1277158110 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I think string theory is just overzealous in its categorization of physical phenomenon as dimensions < 1277158118 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the ISL is still accurate in most situations. < 1277158130 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, to get anywhere in physics these days you have to pretty much submit to string theory or you will not be taken seriously. < 1277158130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: more _generally_, it's a theorem of set theory that the axiom of choice is equivalent to every infinite set M having a bijection with M^2 < 1277158276 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a name for this magical (^) :: Set -> Integer -> Space operation? < 1277158302 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh so THAT is what the Axiom of Choice is. < 1277158309 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M^2 just means a pair of Ms. < 1277158340 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah so... Set -> Integer -> DependentTypeHereLolHaskell < 1277158417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: if you identify an integer with a set having that many elements (as e.g. von Neumann numerals do), then A^B is just the set of functions from B to A < 1277158486 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I understand, but as a consequence my brain kind of malfunctioned. < 1277158529 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So R^2 is the set of functions from 2 to R? < 1277158543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: this is also compatible with the cardinalities of the sets. e.g. the set of functions from B to A has |A|^|B| elements, where |A| and |B| are the cardinalities of A and B < 1277158545 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I get it now. < 1277158562 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from a set with two elements to R I guess. < 1277158562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's an intuitive notation < 1277158582 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, doesn't 2 have to be a set of 2 elements each of which are in R? < 1277158622 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no, it doesn't matter which set you use to represent 2 for this, as long as it has 2 elements < 1277158661 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what does the function do with the elements? < 1277158665 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :von Neumann numerals use {0,1}, defined recursively < 1277158689 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: it maps 0 to the first tuple element, and 1 to the second. < 1277158702 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahh. < 1277158705 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some might like to use {1,2} instead for this :D < 1277158726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more generally, an n-tuple in math is just a function from {1,...,n} to some set < 1277158739 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, I get it now. < 1277158804 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, need to provide validity to your theory? Define it in terms of other theories! < 1277158823 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I firmly believe AC to be independent of AC. < 1277158856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so that means there are just two types of infinite? < 1277158864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, countable and uncountable? < 1277158866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait a sec < 1277158869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every infinite? < 1277158891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is true countable == uncountable which is not true afaik? < 1277158928 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: um no, there is an unending (in fact itself uncountable) collection. 2^M has larger size than M, always (Cantor diagonalization) < 1277158946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however M^2 has the same size as M if M is infinite < 1277158997 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly, there are infinitely many cardinalities a such that a^(aleph_0) = a and infinitely many such that this is false < 1277159022 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what a 3-cube bijected into 3-space would look like. < 1277159029 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(any cardinality of the form 2^a for infinite a satisfies the equation, but limits need not < 1277159032 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1277159065 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/infinitely/uncountable/, really < 1277159075 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ly < 1277159138 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds strangely like relativizing proofs on oracle machines. < 1277159160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well it's all diagonalization < 1277159172 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"infinitely many [oracles] such that [P=NP] and infinitely many such that this is false" < 1277159179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that < 1277159194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1277159228 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't *know* that there are inf. many -- the original result was "there exists at least one" -- but it seems quite reasonable < 1277159239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1277159256 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is in a dark cave with dripping water and weird violet crystals everywhere < 1277159264 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you can probably construct infinitely many oracles with the same power as a given one, at least < 1277159271 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1277159352 0 :calamari!~jeffryj@32.97.110.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277159356 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1277159370 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: Hey! < 1277159374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, " Phantom_Hoover: more _generally_, it's a theorem of set theory that the axiom of choice is equivalent to every infinite set M having a bijection with M^2" still confuse me then < 1277159377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 3-cube into 3-space? well if it's a cube without the borders, just use a suitable scaled tan function on each coordinate < 1277159382 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, every doesn't mean every? < 1277159388 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to wikipedia: PostScript is a Turing-complete programming language, belonging to the concatenative group. PostScript is an interpreted, stack-based language similar to Forth but with strong dynamic typing, data structures inspired by those found in Lisp, scoped memory and, since language level 2, garbage collection < 1277159405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, or that you have bijections between different cardinalities? < 1277159408 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just asking for a brainfuck port.. < 1277159415 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or has one already been done? < 1277159416 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it has to be the same M in M and M^2 < 1277159419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I thought bijection defined cardinality? < 1277159424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ah! < 1277159434 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey Chris, how are you? < 1277159488 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: You know, I'm not sure anymore... I'm ok I guess. :) How're things with you? < 1277159496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: now make it output a graphic representation of the bf run :D < 1277159520 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, exactly! < 1277159554 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION did a mandelbrot in postscript once. only black and white though, so not so impressive. < 1277159582 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a vague idea that it _might_ have taken a while to get through the printer :D < 1277159767 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I'm doing alright.. did something happen? < 1277159921 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: It's a long story. I've been bouncing around the USA the past two years, for bad reasons. Ended up near Chicago... will hopefully stay here for a while. But we'll see. < 1277159979 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a Canadian? < 1277160005 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question. Is tuple pronounced "too-ple"? < 1277160008 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, just a US permanent resident, because I married an American :) < 1277160022 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just "tup-le" < 1277160022 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, still married? < 1277160031 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've always heard the former < 1277160049 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: i've been assuming it's pronounced like the last part of "quintuple". < 1277160050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, I wonder what an image that has a small depth of focus but has more than one such would look like < 1277160062 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I've heard both. < 1277160086 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it's because the words that end in -tuple pronounce it both ways. right? < 1277160095 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they do? < 1277160099 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... quadruple. < 1277160099 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1277160101 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, like a pinhole camera? < 1277160103 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's not quite -tuple < 1277160110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, hm? < 1277160115 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you saying the opposite of that? < 1277160130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, like focused at one meter, then unfocused a bit, then focused again at about 10 meters < 1277160132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1277160136 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well with a small enough pinhole, everything is in focus < 1277160145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, so completely different < 1277160207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, see what I mean? < 1277160218 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I think so < 1277160237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, or a sine function < 1277160254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, so 1 = completely in focus -1 = very out of focus < 1277160265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a period of half a meter between crossing the zero < 1277160266 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-tuple, 2-tuple, 3-tuple, 4 < 1277160268 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might be able to (ab)use a raytracer into doing it < 1277160276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, I have no idea how < 1277160322 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.64 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277160331 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1277160344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so close and yet so far < 1277160345 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise... and bye < 1277160348 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pov-ray is open source < 1277160353 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.64 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277160371 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hello! < 1277160395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello ehirdiphone! < 1277160456 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chris: but yeah anyhow.. I am a divorced dad of 2.. hopefully you didn't end up in such a situation < 1277160476 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: I'm sorry to hear that... < 1277160480 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It feels so good to write out what the code should do before writing the code < 1277160524 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa. What prompted a divorce discussion? < 1277160539 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... I bet you could extend Parsec to match/fail on any sort of pattern regardless of type. < 1277160554 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also fuzzily. To implement pattern matching. < 1277160557 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of data. < 1277160558 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Parsec 3 < 1277160572 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, "How are you?" < 1277160577 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, hehe.. mostly me not minding my own business :) < 1277160725 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION attempts to read log on phone < 1277160733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, true < 1277160748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, wrt raytracer I mean < 1277160776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, still I wouldn't know how to make such an optics model < 1277160804 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Me volunteering the fact that I've been galavanting around the US because I married an American. < 1277160872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, when enough crap starts happening to you, you start learning to count your blessings I guess :) < 1277160895 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I guess I'm thinking along the lines of modifying the source to mess with the smooth focus falloff and reset it at some point.. a dirty hack < 1277160920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, ah < 1277160928 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so when distance gets to 10 meters.. treat it like distance x-10 again < 1277160939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch. fmod() basically? < 1277160951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari, well I guess one would have to find it in the source first < 1277160954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which may not be that easy < 1277160991 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a good shot at first or second shitlife ranking here methinks. < 1277161000 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah fmod.. wow, never heard of fmod until now.. cool stuff :) < 1277161011 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it get much worse than being wrongly institutionalised? < 1277161020 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean. For most people < 1277161022 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1277161032 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yes. Yes, I for one would not deny you that trophy. < 1277161032 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Starving is probably notably worse. < 1277161064 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it made out of a turd? Polished? < 1277161109 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me, I think it was the sudden drop in standard of living that was jarring, but that's been a long time now so it's just life again hehe < 1277161111 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, calamari invented modular arithmetic. Astonishing :P < 1277161128 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1277161163 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fmod is just the remainder operation generalised to reals < 1277161172 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe discovered :) definitely not invented < 1277161188 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm being a sarcastic bastard. < 1277161190 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone can discover things < 1277161196 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evne the same things :) < 1277161197 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apologies :P < 1277161202 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none needed < 1277161228 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love being an argumentative ass.. just ask Gregor < 1277161243 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually fmod doesn't make a whole lot of sense really since modulo is remainder of *integer* division < 1277161276 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's a useful implementation over the reals of a common use-case of modular arithmetic. < 1277161294 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*division. < 1277161362 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So if we get gay married I could escape? Hey, it's a viable plan! < 1277161378 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ATTN anyone in America: I am free for marriage < 1277161391 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth does C/C++ not have tuples. < 1277161398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Er, no can do -- there are laws against bigamy here. < 1277161399 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: have fun consummating < 1277161410 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: DAMMIT. < 1277161430 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fucking conservatism! < 1277161452 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Canada too < 1277161466 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess in C++ you coud define tuple generics. < 1277161472 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: someone's challenging those laws' constitutionality I think < 1277161477 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: C++0x is getting them < 1277161483 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: c is a glorified pdp11 assembler < 1277161492 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ATTN any non-married person, then? < 1277161526 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: c++ is a functional language compiling down to a glorified object-oriented pdp11 assembler < 1277161554 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: What bigamy laws? Or gay laws? < 1277161566 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: bigamy. Gay marriage has been legal here for several years < 1277161571 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, but god hates fags < 1277161575 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*What, < 1277161598 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the authors of the Canadian constitution were gay polyamorists < 1277161624 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, sorry, arizona hates gays too < 1277161629 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My logic is irrefutable < 1277161631 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1277161638 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION currently lives in the most hated state, lol < 1277161652 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was never time for an actual SCC ruling on the legality of law banning gay marriage, IIRC; the government made it legal before that could happen. The closest it came when was Alberta (surprise, surprise) tried to legislate it and it was found to be outside provincial jurisdiction. < 1277161659 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is in Georgia. Doesn't get much more bigoted. < 1277161661 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you even get green card gay married? < 1277161682 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, but nobody talks about that.. Arizona is in the spotlight < 1277161691 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, right. < 1277161698 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even get why everyone cares about Arizona < 1277161710 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Georgia birthed Neutral Milk Hotel which makes up for it sucking. < 1277161711 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all they did is basically tell police officers to enforce the law < 1277161724 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get why everyone cares about the US. < 1277161736 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well from a racism perspective, I guess I don't really care.. however requiring me to carry my papers.. I care about that < 1277161746 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ha. And a lot of other good musicians. I didn't know NMH was from Georgia though. < 1277161746 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I have a friend in Georgia; say hi. < 1277161753 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I'm on it. < 1277161762 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1277161771 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NMH are from Georgia, yeah. < 1277161782 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. Were. < 1277161801 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1277161810 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, is singular-for-band-names a US thing? < 1277161821 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NMH is/was < 1277161833 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Singular groups is an Americanism. < 1277161841 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... okay. < 1277161857 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not significantly different from referring to a corporation by a singular name < 1277161868 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do you say "the class are dismissed." ??? < 1277161869 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pink Floyd were a band. Microsoft were ruled against in an antitrust case. < 1277161883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: so basically it's the reason why US corporations are persons? < 1277161890 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: obviously < 1277161900 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'd say "class dismissed" prolly :P < 1277161906 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. < 1277161912 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes. L < 1277161918 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no L < 1277161930 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting. < 1277161936 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When we hear "the class" we hear every member of that class. < 1277161938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: isn't it a little early for christmas < 1277161950 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it sounds awkward for a teacher to say that. < 1277161960 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno why. < 1277161966 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No l, no l < 1277161970 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No l, no l < 1277161974 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Something something < 1277161976 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No l < 1277161983 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I presume because there is only one class. < 1277162007 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the class is dismissed ... imo :) < 1277162010 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And an esolang is born. < 1277162011 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the classes are dismissed. The class is dismissed. That's how it works here at least. < 1277162019 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Class is a singleton! < 1277162023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: but does it own the means of production? < 1277162031 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: rofl. of course not. < 1277162035 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :capitalism all the way. < 1277162039 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus Class is the only class! < 1277162040 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1277162083 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Corporations as their members is a very socialist quirk :P < 1277162087 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I hope class just so happens to be an implementation of a hash table... < 1277162094 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because then we can implement a subset of lua. < 1277162123 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well we need the Class class because every class must be an instance of it. < 1277162132 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tada, we have our one class. < 1277162147 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HEREBY FLAW YOUR LOGIC < 1277162160 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: NOOOOOOO < 1277162169 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY ONLY WEAKNESS! < 1277162199 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you even go through the trouble of defining a better C++ < 1277162200 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So. < 1277162219 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ask olsner. < 1277162232 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes. Class must be a subclass of HashTable. < 1277162259 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if there are tuples... then they should immediately change every stdlib function that takes pointer arguments to set multiple return values. < 1277162288 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C library compatibility says no < 1277162324 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just overload everything. :D < 1277162327 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ALWAYS THE ANSWER < 1277162338 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg, I was mentioned < 1277162358 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner has been summoned < 1277162389 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will take some mana for this, you know... massive amounts of mana < 1277162405 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also... why on earth would you call it C++0X < 1277162406 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION steals the mana and casts Gleemax < 1277162410 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is just too many symbols < 1277162419 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: People are upset about Arizona because the law in question makes the police call out people who "look illegal" and demand proof that they are legal. Said proof being a birth certificate or naturalisation certificate. < 1277162421 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: C++YY < 1277162424 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It's a working name evolved from the fact that it was expected in the year '0X, where X is unknown < 1277162429 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It < 1277162436 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude check out my language it's called $##E2 < 1277162439 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Obviously, it is an esolang in disguise. < 1277162460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And these certificates are neither commonly carried around nor something that police should (IMO) have the authority to demand. < 1277162464 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It's official C++ not some other project. < 1277162473 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++1x, in which C++ standardises brainfuck as an alternate macro language < 1277162486 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*It's required that foreigners carry ID already. IIRC, it adds no requirement for citizens < 1277162487 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It < 1277162536 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sean "copp- 'Arizona' -ro" Hunt < 1277162539 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes, foreigners are required to carry a passport or a green card. However, the law makes demands of *proof of citizenship*, not just proof of legal non-citizenship. < 1277162548 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nested nicknames! < 1277162555 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I didn't know about that < 1277162568 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall seeing that when I scanned the bill < 1277162575 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it also demands that they do this check on anyone who *looks illegal*. < 1277162594 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro just reads USA bills for fun. < 1277162595 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, about defining a better C++ the thing I think I've realized that you pretty much can't make a better C++ but you can probably replace it with something else < 1277162598 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that what cops do anyways? not that it's justified... < 1277162599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, yeah... Most people here are either immigrants or decendents of immigrants. Each and every person could be illegal. < 1277162599 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe the term is "reasonable suspicion: < 1277162610 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: I looked this one up specifically < 1277162633 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro is defending the crazy right wing burkina < 1277162634 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: this is a state with fucking Sherrif Arpaio in power. < 1277162637 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nutjobs < 1277162640 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not burkina < 1277162644 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF iPhone < 1277162646 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof of citizenship? So permanent residents don't count? Jeez/ < 1277162651 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I love it < 1277162652 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels hurt. < 1277162667 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Citizenship or legal residence. < 1277162673 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: it's just going through a faso < 1277162683 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so glad I don't with in maricopa county... inmnocent into proven guilty throw right out the window with those prison camps < 1277162697 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with->live < 1277162697 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: What's the serf? < 1277162712 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Inmocent. < 1277162716 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, tons of typos in that.. just parse it :) < 1277162720 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yeah. Arpaio would inevitably enforce that shit as "if e's not white or black, pull im the hell over." < 1277162723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1277162732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inmocent is a word? < 1277162733 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(black so that he can claim not to be racist) < 1277162741 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, but innocent is. < 1277162748 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah... Arpaio would totally use Spivak pronouns. < 1277162758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Totally. :P < 1277162760 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that's what happens when I am reading a webpage and typing at the same time lol < 1277162765 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, *em < 1277162771 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not i'm. < 1277162774 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: also, you know the other part, right? That the police officer already has to be talking to the person for some violation? < 1277162776 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm. < 1277162779 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im. < 1277162791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Yes. < 1277162801 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k, just chekcing < 1277162828 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where C++ wins today there isn't really that much to compete with it I think... C is often too stupid/simplistic and everything else popular is too dynamic or slow or generally far-from-the-metal (like ... java and everything) or scary (like haskell)... Ada isn't bad at all really but everyone mistrusts it and it's a tad verbose and bondage&discipline < 1277162843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though this in practice means a more asshole-type police officer will make up a reason to pull the person over. < 1277162847 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, and you know that if a police officer follows you long enough in a car you WILL violate some traffic law sooner or later. < 1277162849 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just going to toss in a crazy radical idea to turn this into a flamewar: Completely free immigration to and from any country. < 1277162863 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, I need to be off, before I crack up. Bye all, have a pleasant evening. < 1277162870 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya Chris < 1277162872 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: My only question is whether or not it would be sane to implement this immediately. < 1277162872 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Arpaio would totally use Spivak pronouns. < 1277162876 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: sure. But the new law doesn't change that aspect of things significantly < 1277162894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps have it completely free immigration to and from the developed world and slowly add developing nations. < 1277162912 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made someone's quit message! Yay! < 1277162924 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, it's not practical right know. < 1277162928 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so as to avoid a massive flood into developed nations) < 1277162932 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the police officer thinks someone is an illegal immigrant, they can still tail you all day, get you for a violation, and ask you for documentation that you're allowed in the country < 1277162950 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it'd make countries *compete*, thus yielding better countries, < 1277162962 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus yielding better spread of population. < 1277162964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, other than doubts about implementation particulars, I am entirely in favor of such a thing. < 1277162973 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Immigration problem: solved. < 1277162990 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*right now, not know < 1277162999 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION unsummons (boring!) < 1277163034 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner olsner olsner Candlejac < 1277163034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is absolutely no sense in there not being free immigration between, say, Europe, USA, Canada, and Japan. None at all. < 1277163057 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1277163066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even think of a *reason* for it beyond "DEM FOREIGNERS ARE EVIL TAKING AR JORBS". < 1277163071 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: BUT DOOD PPL ONLY WANT TO GO TO USA AND UK LOL < 1277163101 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: you're not supposed to disappear until after you've _finished_ writing Candlejack, you stu < 1277163102 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/USA AND UK/USA/ < 1277163104 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1277163106 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1277163128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, also. "TERRORISTS". < 1277163134 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: olsner stopped me finishing Candlejack's name, you fo < 1277163144 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg they took my job I can't work at mcdonalds anymore :( < 1277163144 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: ok then < 1277163148 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :j.k. < 1277163166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, of course, Canada is a magical land made entirely of people who want to commit terrorism against the US. < 1277163180 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also unicorns. < 1277163184 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But can't be assed to walk across the mostly unpatrolled border to do so. < 1277163198 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are le tired. < 1277163207 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terrorist unicorns! < 1277163219 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*recites the rest of the end of the world* < 1277163223 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why we have the border mostly unpatrolled *but* massive security checks on legal crossings is beyond me. < 1277163231 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alaska can come too. THE END! < 1277163305 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canada is awesome because it has European laws plus English (ok so I am biased) plus an awesome range of climates. < 1277163310 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus maple syrup. < 1277163321 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God dammit I love maple syrup. < 1277163358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And its culture is like America, without all of the stupid. :P < 1277163378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. Actually, that makes it radically different; stupid is one of the defining attributes of American culture. < 1277163402 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wrt terrorism: with the English skills of the average terrorist fearmonger, we will soon all be incredibly worried about planes being hijacked by museli < 1277163420 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH GOD WITH THE ALMONDS AND THE OATS IN THE COCKPIT < 1277163421 0 :micahjohnston!~Adium@174-23-77-18.slkc.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1277163425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1277163449 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be nifty if Haskell had recursive types < 1277163454 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nous avons aussi Français. < 1277163457 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...by recursive types I mean < 1277163468 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/F/f/ < 1277163476 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1277163497 0 :ehirdiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.248.62 JOIN :#esoteric < 1277163500 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't believe in Quebec < 1277163501 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Computation a b = (a ->(a, Computation)) < 1277163522 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like Canada plus LAME FRENCHNESS and EXCESS COLD. < 1277163525 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pourquoi? < 1277163529 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1277163531 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Le français n'est pas seulment de Quebec... < 1277163532 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Eh wot? < 1277163533 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: the argument i hear for not allowing them is that it would make a _lot_ of errors accidentally well-typed < 1277163551 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You missed some type arguments... < 1277163562 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it removes type safety < 1277163574 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type LC = LC -> LC < 1277163579 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :type Computation a b = (a ->(b, Computation)) < 1277163580 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: oui! < 1277163604 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: well not memory safety < 1277163613 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :si si si señor < 1277163623 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: eh? < 1277163633 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: fail < 1277163650 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: it cannot cause it to call a function with something it cannot handle, only make an unexpected infinite loop < 1277163662 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C'est à Ottawa et un peu de Nouveau-Brunswick. < 1277163707 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ayeight mayb I starten tak'n i'scrut'bl 'nvented Enggish dylect. < 1277163718 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah je ne savais pas que vous parlais de Canada < 1277163735 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ah < 1277163759 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STOPP'T WI'TH'FRENCH! < 1277163763 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Non! < 1277163765 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pourquoi? < 1277163781 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Ai shinkku Ai amu goingu tsu taruku in an oddo daiarekuto maiserufu. < 1277163805 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yorl dinaeknow French aneighwy. < 1277163812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: there's nothing you can do with recursive types that you cannot already simulate with newtypes, afaik < 1277163813 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wakarimasen. < 1277163841 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yorl gon stopp't immydjtli! < 1277163841 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: nice bastardization < 1277163849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone's is just bad < 1277163849 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and they compile to identical machine code, presumably) < 1277163852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: Korya "I think I am going to talk in an odd dialect myself.", nihongoppoi hatsuon de. < 1277163870 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: POO HENCEFORTH TOWARDS YOU. < 1277163890 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Watashi ha ima, IME ga nai no de, roomaji wo tsukaeru. Gomen ne.) < 1277163896 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wakarimashita demo nihongo sukoshi wakarimasu < 1277163908 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know if what I just said is right at all < 1277163909 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1277163911 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Desu nihongo desu? < 1277163921 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desu! < 1277163927 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: Quite correct, though oddly formal. < 1277163928 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sō desu < 1277163941 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^_^ < 1277163944 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Desu desu desu, desu desu. < 1277163951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1277163955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what language is that? < 1277163964 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nihongo desu < 1277163969 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Desu Tokyo Nihongo desu Nihongo dedu desu. < 1277163975 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*desu < 1277163982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: e syns japansk e å gå før langt < 1277163998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, aha, så det är japanska? < 1277163999 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*japanskdesu < 1277164011 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*japanskadesu < 1277164019 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: This is about on par with "Is London English is English id is." :P < 1277164032 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Desu desu; Osaka desu Nihongo. < 1277164044 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: XD < 1277164050 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well some of it at least < 1277164055 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Is is; Edinburgh is English." < 1277164070 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should'nt it be Osaka wa Nihongo desu though? < 1277164083 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: you know japanese? ehird's line read like "I understood but I understand a little japanese" to me... which seems to be missing some kind of contrast to motivate the 'but' < 1277164085 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: He's citing a bizarre meme, not actual Japanese. < 1277164085 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Japanese even HAVE semicolons? < 1277164092 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh < 1277164097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I do, in fact, know Japanese. < 1277164108 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wo desu Nihongo gaijin desu wo wo desUsaka < 1277164112 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: Yeah, but it's *very* uncommon. < 1277164118 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: I didn't know how to say "only" :P < 1277164124 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone, on the other hand, does not speak a lick of Japanese < 1277164129 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :watashi wa gaijin desu < 1277164142 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Good luck analogising THAT < 1277164147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, så länge de pratar japanska föreslår jag att vi pratar "skandinaviska" < 1277164153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1277164156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ^ < 1277164165 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :japansk e då ikkje skickelig vansklig, bare *litt* vansklig < 1277164167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ja, olsner med, med dumma tab < 1277164169 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :micahjohnston: "Watashi ha wakuru, kedo chotto dake nihongo wo wakaru." < 1277164173 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There. < 1277164182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, det där var norska? < 1277164190 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nån sorts försök till det < 1277164193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, ah < 1277164204 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1277164212 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehirdiphone: "The is English foreign is the the is?eh." < 1277164221 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is getting annoyed that Google translation can't do Romanji (this is not an invitation to move to Kanji, thanks) < 1277164221 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: gobbledygook time! join in! < 1277164226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1277164229 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't this is an only-speak-American IRC server? < 1277164233 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What have I done < 1277164238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I don't have an IME, so I am not using my uber kanji-knowledge. < 1277164257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: norsk e jo så lætt, e har snakkæ dæ si e va lit'n glønjtonge < 1277164258 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I can write all the jouyou kanji. I know all the readings for about half of them.) < 1277164259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, not american. UK English < 1277164268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No. < 1277164277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, vad är "snakkæ" och "glønjtonge"? < 1277164296 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't :D < 1277164297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "spoken" and "boy child" < 1277164303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You should fix that. < 1277164305 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fvvjcogctpdtpsyuvug h hpctptxtc bgpdyxtu uuuuuuäfghtįåæ. < 1277164312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If nothing else, it lets you write kanji in English. :P < 1277164315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, huh, doesn't make more sense even with that < 1277164319 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the vowels go at the end. < 1277164323 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Possibly. I want to brush up on French first before I attack another language < 1277164333 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cedilla FTW < 1277164334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's dialect of course :D < 1277164341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my notes are now incredibly hard to read unless you're bilingual. And can read an invented script of mine.) < 1277164341 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :glønjtonge! nice one < 1277164345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, det var elakt < 1277164365 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :snakkae == snacka, såklart < 1277164368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the Swedish dialects I can do passably aren't even half as evil < 1277164368 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doubleplusgood. < 1277164380 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Though I do have some questions on pronunciation of Japanese, if we can move to /msg < 1277164388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Sure. < 1277164393 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not about to start speaking in Geordie. < 1277164400 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sufficiently evil. < 1277164402 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, now I wish I knew dalmål < 1277164435 0 :elliottcable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh gods < 1277164437 0 :elliottcable!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENGLISH < 1277164438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, how is zee going? < 1277164456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :elliottable: o kamitachi < 1277164457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, anything screenshot-worthy yet? < 1277164467 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Elferv; t'xinįlœ. < 1277164475 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know some greek! mia nihta mono den ftani < 1277164483 0 :micahjohnston!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mais l'anglais est nul < 1277164490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I read that last word as "fthang" first XD < 1277164527 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I thought it was cthulhu-speak for a long while, until I managed to find a forum post identifying it as greek < 1277164536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, XD < 1277164577 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the name of a Shulman song, btw, http://open.spotify.com/track/77srFu8ZmyivyhM9YZkNlk) < 1277164590 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xr'ani • dok'teh âmana tulvo p'tkin jołæ < 1277164593 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cthulhu-speak is easy once you get the fthang of it < 1277164616 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :harr < 1277164626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, don't have spotify. < 1277164633 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: sucks to be you then < 1277164646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, as far as I knew there was no linux client for non-premium? < 1277164652 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :miso mig'uyt • manv'o tild yrtvn arci ö < 1277164657 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's bound to be on your favourite p2p network anyway < 1277164657 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: WINE < 1277164660 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Works great < 1277164675 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interface is nonnative anyway < 1277164678 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WINE isn't perfect < 1277164684 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I don't deal in that. I tend to order my music from naxosdirect after hearing it on P2 :P < 1277164699 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spotify works fine in Wine anyway, except for playback of local files < 1277164699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, iirc the spotify client doesn't work well at all with wine < 1277164705 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Is for spotify. < 1277164708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuttering sound and so on < 1277164716 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"deal in that" < 1277164719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, so indeed < 1277164752 0 :ehirdiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LET'S DO SOME CANNABIS DRUGS THEN DEAL IN COPYRIGHT-INFRINGING MATERIALS < 1277164755 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had no problems... but maybe you just need to uninstall pulseaudio to make it work < 1277164766 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would love to use ReactOS as his primary OS < 1277164769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I don't use pulseaudio on that system < 1277164772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner, I use jack < 1277164779 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably just as bad < 1277164797 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah! why do they even bother inventing this crap? to make sound more difficult?