00:00:06 hm, it would be nice with a TM that could rewrite it's own rules 00:00:49 so does clisp-for-BEAM completely integrate with Erlang? As in, I can use a clisp module as if it were a normal erlang module? 00:03:58 CakeProphet, not clisp 00:04:01 I said other lisp 00:04:14 CakeProphet, very clearly I said it wasn't clisp but a custom lisp 00:04:25 so yes it integrates fully 00:04:41 but only because it is special crafted for erlang 00:05:20 ah. 00:09:57 http://wiki.reia-lang.org/wiki/Reia_Programming_Language 00:10:24 a Ruby-like language with Python whitespace-significance for BEAM 00:11:28 i never understood what's so special about ruby 00:11:33 it's a crock of shit 00:11:36 after all 00:39:02 a bf program is pretty much directly a turing machine, but a turing machine is not necessarily directly a brainfuck program 00:39:06 * CakeProphet is reading about Parsec 00:39:08 it's sick. 00:39:35 the control structure is different, the one of tm's is more flexible 00:39:42 tms' 00:40:42 just have a state for each command in the program, and it's pretty obvious what you do in each state, and what state you go to 00:41:43 in case CakeProphet still doesn't know, turing machines have a finite amount of states, and at each time step they may, depending on state and tape content at tape head, change cell content at tape head, move on tape, and change state 00:42:12 in a bf program your states must come in some sort of linear progression with loops, not in arbitrary jumps 00:42:43 this is like while() vs. goto, but in a restricted computation model 00:42:47 well i should go to sleep now 00:43:32 Night oklopol 00:43:44 night Sgeodude 00:43:46 -> 00:48:01 CakeProphet, parsec? 00:48:07 as in the astronomical thing 00:48:10 or as in for haskell? 00:49:34 night → 00:49:56 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:12:10 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:12:15 -!- alise has joined. 01:12:25 AnMaster: Haskell 01:14:55 pikhq: ping 01:16:55 OMGYESSSSS 01:16:57 TODAY IS A GOOD DAY 01:17:16 http://vetusware.com/download/AT_T%20UNIX%20System%20V%20Release%204%202.1.4/?id=5727 <-- this 1) works and 2) seems to be working on Bochs 8-D 01:17:51 (The boot disk didn't boot in Qemu, but I can always move it over later) 01:24:20 System V? Who cares? 01:24:48 It had already succumbed to the crawl of coagulated growth by then. :) 01:25:18 Gregor: Is pikhq dead for you too? 01:25:27 Guess I'll just have to compile my own uclibc. 01:25:45 Flinix must happen. 01:25:48 I have ancient copies of Xenix too, but I haven't made them work in any emulator, not even MESS. 01:26:05 Now Gregor must ask me what Flinix is. 01:26:12 "What Flinix is?" 01:26:21 Now Gregor must ask me "What is Flinix?". 01:26:37 ""What is Flinix?"" 01:26:44 Now Gregor must ask me What is Flinix?. 01:26:50 Damn. 01:26:51 Trapped. 01:26:57 MWAHAHA 01:28:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night, and good luck). 01:30:11 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 01:33:17 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:38:07 -!- Oranjer has joined. 01:41:56 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:44:09 The objectives of software visualizations are to support the understanding of software systems (i.e., its structure) and algorithms (e.g., by animating the behavior of sorting algorithms) as well as the analysis of software systems and their anomalies (e.g., by showing classes with high coupling). 01:44:19 I wonder why software companies are OBSESSED with sorting algorithms. 01:45:47 http://www.exebeche.com/ ITT: the iPad becomes a viable development platform. 01:45:52 I have but one thing to say: 01:45:53 Oh dear. 01:46:08 well -- apart from the lack of a compiler :P 01:46:20 CakeProphet: Because, dude, heapsort just isn't hardcore enough! 01:50:33 I sort with O(1) 01:50:43 I call it I-don't-care-sort 01:52:05 so would now be the time to make a proprietary, better Erlang with C syntax? 01:52:28 With 100-core processors on the drawing boards these days. 01:54:15 I think if Google spends more time on Go that's probably what it will become, actually. 01:55:24 Go is not proprietary, and it is not Google's project. 01:55:39 Yes, Google advertised it, and it is worked on by Google employees, but actually more than anything it is a project of the Plan 9 development team. 01:58:23 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 02:00:22 * alise tries to decide whether or not to use drop caps here 02:00:27 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:02:03 YES 02:02:06 I HAVE UNIX SYSV 02:02:08 <3 02:02:24 Gregor: Meet the old boss, same as the new boss. 02:05:27 Does my source of opinions (alise) think Go is good? 02:05:46 OK, I've got a bunch of packages on floppies that are poorly labeled ... where's my damned 'cc' :P 02:05:47 It is not bad. 02:06:07 Well, that must mean it's incredible. If alise doesn't hate it... 02:06:44 Anyone want a ~super-high quality~ LaTeX-typesotten version of The Metamorphosis? 02:07:11 Apparently I'm installing "Operations, Administration and Maintenance" 02:07:16 It isn't so hot on screen; it alternates the margins of each page for printed use, and has blank pages so that chapters always start on the right page (I can't memorise recto and verso...) 02:07:19 That package name tells me just about zero :P 02:07:26 But it is pretty. 02:07:41 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:07:46 I used the Project Gutenberg translation, which isn't so bad. 02:08:34 It's set to A4 paper but I'm pretty sure it'd look too big; I'd just print it scaled down on something smaller. 02:09:47 Is there a Haskell utility that automatically annotates functions with type declarations? 02:09:52 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 02:10:39 Surely this must come with a compiler X-D 02:10:53 I mean, maybe not? But probably! 02:11:25 Gregor: I imagine it comes with pcc. 02:11:47 The Portable C Compiler (also known as pcc or sometimes pccm - portable C compiler machine) is an early compiler for the C programming language written by Stephen C. Johnson of Bell Labs[1] in mid-1970s—based in part on ideas from earlier work by Alan Snyder in 1973.[2][3] 02:11:47 One of the first compilers that could easily be adapted to output code for different computer architectures, the compiler had a long life span. It shipped with BSD Unix until the release of 4.4BSD in 1994—when it was replaced by the GNU C Compiler. It was very influential in its day, so much so that at the beginning of the 1980s, the majority of C compilers were based on it.[4] 02:11:49 Sure, but WHERE >_> 02:11:56 cc(1). 02:12:00 Nope 02:12:07 I'm installing package after package and not finding it. 02:12:16 For separate purchase, then. 02:13:08 That's probably true, but SO MUCH LAME. 02:13:10 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 02:13:11 I mean, come on, this is Unix! 02:13:16 "Skulpt is an entirely in-browser implementation of Python." 02:13:19 No... I ... can't believe that. 02:13:37 can anyone here remember: which byte order is network order? 02:13:47 ais523: the one most processors use, I think... I may be wrong. 02:13:51 ugh 02:13:54 Gregor: And guess what? UNIX didn't include a C compiler until the 3rd Edition. 02:13:56 Wikipedia was entirely unhelpful 02:13:58 ais523: *I have no idea* 02:14:04 ARGH 02:14:06 It's there. 02:14:06 idcc 02:14:07 I have about half an idea 02:14:08 Gregor: It wasn't WRITTEN in C until the 4th Edition. 02:14:18 ais523: but ther are two options, so that's useless 02:14:20 Gregor: id? 02:14:22 alise: I realize that, but after that C and UNIX were inseparable. 02:14:25 alise: WHO THE FUCK KNOWS! 02:14:34 Perl manual says big-endian 02:14:34 man idcc 02:14:39 alise: Nope 02:14:39 thanks, Perl manual! 02:14:42 man: not found 02:14:51 Gregor: Oh, of course; you'd buy the manual on paper, or it would be included with the system. 02:14:52 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 02:15:04 Did nroff even exist then? I think they just used troff to publish it. 02:15:17 man(1) is like the Encyclopedia Britannica on a CD-ROM. 02:15:36 Gregor: Ever used 1st Edition Unix? 02:15:38 *UNIX 02:15:48 I managed to make it run on an emulator once. 02:15:51 From TUHS IIRC. 02:15:57 Friggin' awesome/terrible :P 02:16:01 http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/ 02:16:06 Fixed-up OCR'd version; runs with SIMH. 02:16:07 This is about the earliest Unix that is totally still Unix though. 02:16:25 Gregor: The nice thing about the 1st Edition Manual is that it lists, along with procedure names, their PDP-11 assembly calling sequence. 02:16:26 DOOD I have vi SWEET 02:16:35 But not emacs WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT MEANS 02:16:39 Also, blame Bill Joy. 02:18:02 I think I've figured out the most pointless project ever. 02:18:08 Write a C interpreter 02:18:17 done, many times, utilised, many times. 02:18:37 Argh. idcc doesn't actually work >_< 02:18:58 in Python, actually. And then used to interpret the python interpreter to invoke the C interpreter. 02:19:19 I doubt that's been done. 02:19:24 [ehird@ping lib]$ ls -lh libuClibc-0.9.31.so 02:19:24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird users 191K Jun 21 02:16 libuClibc-0.9.31.so 02:19:29 What did pikhq do to get it so big... 02:19:39 that's what hse said. 02:19:43 -ahem- 02:19:54 You're almost not funny. 02:19:59 wait, why is it SO 02:19:59 ffs 02:20:01 *so 02:20:26 so anyway 02:20:36 I got a Linux kernel down to ~480 KiB compressed 02:20:49 It doesn't support block devices but it *will* be able to create a usable in-RAM system from floppy. 02:20:51 alise: Does it support enough to be reasonably called a "Linux kernel" 02:20:54 oh? I just solved P=NP complete. 02:20:55 Yes. 02:20:56 er 02:21:01 -complete 02:21:04 * CakeProphet typos more when he is eating. 02:21:15 Gregor: It has devices, it only has tmpfs but that's okay because initramfs can read the floppy into RAM, 02:21:18 It has TCP/IP support, 02:21:27 It ... has Ethernet device support? 02:21:45 It doesn't have much but I fully expect it to run that tiny X server thing and Dillo. 02:21:49 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:21:51 speaking of P=NP, don't you also win the prize if you solve P!=NP? 02:21:57 CakeProphet: of course. 02:22:01 Somehow this is rebuilding the kernel when there's new shit activated... 02:22:07 which do you think is more likely to be true? 02:22:13 That to me suggests it's actually building some C code, but that seems absurd, frankly. 02:24:06 My next language shall be neither compiled nor interpreted in any way. Instead it will be "realized" by a realizer program. A realizer takes source code as input and constructs a physical machine that perofmrs the semantics of that code. 02:24:14 ...it's a fool-proof plan. 02:24:58 So, you're inventing ... FPGAs. 02:25:13 Gregor: It probably is rebuilding the kernel. 02:25:31 Gregor: you just gave me a great bot idea, actually. 02:25:41 a bot that counts acronyms that occur on #esoteric in a given day. 02:25:45 provides statistics, etc. 02:26:46 Do you need pseudo-terminals for getty? 02:27:48 are there any stack-based physical machines out there? 02:30:35 alise: probably not, getty uses real terminals 02:31:27 Right. 02:31:35 Flinix will use mingetty, probably. 02:31:38 CakeProphet: yes, see: forth machines 02:32:20 Maaaan. The lack of a C compiler is really harshing my buzz here. 02:32:22 alise: wait. see them where? Where, in the 1940s, would I go to look up such a thing? The library is closed right now. 02:32:30 ... 02:34:32 How do you configure busybox to enable/disable commands? 02:34:49 make menuconfig or edit .config 02:35:02 How helpful. Now explain how menuconfig hasn't got those options. 02:35:12 Because it hates you. 02:35:57 Hmm, it simply appears to be... hiding things from me. 02:36:15 Oh, there. 02:36:18 I wsa in a subdirectory, heh. 02:37:50 FUCK, I lost all myconfig. 02:37:51 *was 02:38:22 hmmm... I'm trying to figure out what the advantage of using a register machine over a stack machine would be. 02:38:31 a stack machine architecture would be awesome. 02:38:58 Maaan, gcc supported this system, but good luck ever finding a binary, plus of course I don't have the development headers so I'm just boned. 02:39:17 WHEREAS I AM JUST STONED 02:39:25 ...I wish I were stoned right now. 02:39:37 SO DOES GOD. 02:39:39 (Isn't that deep?) 02:39:45 ((That's what she said!)) 02:39:55 Though I'm not sure how many of you folks condone such things. Is anyone else a cannabis smoker? :o 02:39:59 Okay, what the fuck, menuconfig. 02:40:01 You're crazy. 02:40:06 We're breaking up. 02:41:32 "Small, simple, evil." --BusyBox on ed 02:45:30 mount? How can I mount anything? There is no block device support! 02:45:42 login? init? Why do I need those? init is just a shell script, there are no users other than root! 02:45:58 It's so easy to configure a Linux installation if your constraints are dictated by the almighty 2 MiB floppy disk. 02:46:08 You just disable EVERYTHING. 02:46:22 cron? Hahahahaha 02:48:06 Don't forget GNOME 02:48:14 :) 02:48:42 Actually, me and pikhq are going to use KDrive... so we will have X11. 02:48:54 oh. well good. 02:49:20 whenever I design Operating Systems 02:49:30 I make my own custom desktop environment on top of ncurses 02:49:47 it's the best platform... 02:51:04 Wow ... I just typed the pathname of a real program (which I don't have) in UNIX V/386 into Google, and got NO responses. 02:51:07 How is that even possible? 02:52:34 well... I'm in the 1950s 02:52:42 where there is no Google 02:52:47 but 02:52:58 in the context of your time, I would say it has something to do with it being 2010. 02:53:11 * CakeProphet can communicate with the future only through IRC 02:53:24 I am a sentient Jacquard Loom. 02:53:25 Beat that. 02:54:41 well... 02:54:45 gladly. 02:55:34 flinix is going to be so awesome. 02:55:48 -!- augur has joined. 02:55:56 things were admittedly difficult when I time traveled to the 1920s. I had to hack together an IRC client from an electric typewriter, which meant I had to manually type in IRC commands. 02:56:22 that was last week though. 02:56:39 ha! get it 02:56:53 Put a floppy in an old computer, reboot. Voila, 800x600 or 1024x768 256-colour X11 session opens with welcome text, a terminal, and a menu. 02:57:11 You can run a command in the terminal to start your Ethernet network and connect with DHCP, 02:57:25 alise: not automatic? 02:57:28 then open the menu and you can use Dillo to browse the subset of the interwebs that hasn't upgraded to 2.0 yet. 02:57:39 You can irc via ircii or some other similar thing. 02:57:43 ais523: Psh, this isn't Floppy Ubuntu. 02:57:47 Sure, you can't mount any disks, but who really cares? 02:57:58 Oh, and did I mention? A package manager means that you can install any package that will fit in RAM from the interwebnets. 02:58:33 Unfortunately, you will be unable to save these packages, even to another floppy. The kernel HAS NO FILESYSTEM SUPPORT beyond tmpfs, or block device support. 02:58:41 Instead, initramfs loads the floppy into RAM as a tmpfs; job done. 02:58:51 ais523: not automatic, you might need to manually configure the network 02:59:03 and also, every byte counts; easier to write a quick briefing on how to start the network than an automagic script. 02:59:27 But, point is: Put in floppy. Boot up. Usable graphical environment. The web. IRC. WTF awesome. 02:59:54 could always do some kind of CLOUD FILESYSTEM OOOOOOH 03:00:32 ais523: And all this with a modern kernel, uClibc, and Busybox. 03:00:41 A modern kernel! One without block device support, sure, but... 03:00:58 aren't floppy disks block devices? 03:01:15 ais523: Yes. But think about how a Linux boot floppy works. The kernel never reads the floppy. 03:01:23 I suppose so 03:01:27 The initramfs loads the floppy into RAM as a tmpfs, then hands over to the kernel, which sees it as a tmpfs. 03:01:35 Job done. 03:01:36 it's certainly an ingenious way to make the disk read-only 03:01:44 That's not intentional. 03:01:52 hmm, what about kernel modules in the package manager 03:01:55 It's just that even with all of this removed, the kernel is ~480 KiB. 03:02:01 ais523: No kernel module support, heavens no! 03:02:03 so if you really need to be able to read a disk, you could download block device support and use it 03:02:06 Oh, and that 480 KiB figure is LZMA compressed. 03:02:09 So yeah, the kernel is big. 03:02:11 Features are baaad. 03:02:19 alise: oh, in that case, how are you going to support hardware? 03:02:27 ais523: I may end up enabling block device support and filesystems out of sheer weakness if userspace doesn't take up as much space as I expect. 03:02:31 just assuming a VGA screen or whatever? 03:02:58 ais523: We're going to use the KDrive tiny X11 server (part of X.org now) with SVGA. 03:03:02 (We = me and pikhq.) 03:03:08 So, yeah, just assume SVGA. 03:03:11 It has a wide enough range of resolutions. 03:03:34 and presumably you're only supporting wired networking 03:03:40 to avoid needing a bunch of drivers for wireless cards 03:03:51 even then, how are you going to select which networking drivers to use? 03:04:00 the three most popular, or whatever? 03:04:13 ais523: Broadcom drivers. Nothing else. Works fine. 03:04:17 Most stuff is generic enough these days. 03:04:38 Ethernet, you can't really go wrong with Ethernet. Ethernet works nowadays, all the old tutorials saying "Oh, get a Broadcom card!" are really just FUD by now. 03:05:04 I realised it worked fine, but I thought it was due to the breadth of available drivers, rather than them all being the same 03:06:02 There's actually very few Ethernet drivers to enable in the kernel. 03:06:07 Broadcom is the only one that would ring anyone's bell. 03:07:44 but wait, WHAT ABOUT BLUETOOTH? 03:08:03 No. 03:08:07 hahaha. 03:08:09 Also no USB or sound support. (Sound support requires block devices.) 03:08:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:11:36 ais523: what other programs do you think would be useful? 03:11:46 nethack 03:11:53 ais523: how small can you get nethack? 03:12:01 we're going to be very short for space 03:12:04 not sure, there's definitely a version designed to fit on a floppy 03:12:14 which presumably implies that it takes up most of the floppy, so probably too large 03:12:26 enough to access a package manager is probably fine 03:12:36 also, try to put at least one TC program on there, like a shell or something 03:12:53 Busybox has a shell, so yes. 03:13:04 It will also have gzip and tar and the like. 03:13:10 ...I've included a floppy formatter but have just realised that'll be useless. 03:13:22 ais523: if I disable all the extensions and patches, surely nethack isn't so big? 03:13:26 What if I UPX the executable? 03:13:35 The whole system will be LZMA'd, anyway. 03:15:20 ais523: I'll probably include some tiny mail client. 03:15:55 irssi is a pretty sweet terminal IRC client. 03:15:59 * CakeProphet is using it right now. 03:16:02 ais523: Problem is, with a 480 KiB kernel, compressed, and the hundred kibibytes or so busybox will take up, we're short for space, even using an unformatted floppy disk. 03:16:06 CakeProphet: But it is too big for a floppy. 03:16:07 Thus, irssi. 03:16:09 Erm. 03:16:11 Thus, ircii. 03:16:28 meh. 03:16:42 UNFERIOR 03:16:51 2 mibibytes. Get a working system with X11. 03:16:53 Go on. 03:17:26 the problem is that you're using /space/ to represent programs 03:17:29 and not BRAINPOWER!!! 03:17:31 ... 03:17:36 alise: can bootloaders read unformatted floppy disks? 03:17:47 I'm sure some can. 03:17:49 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 03:17:51 The formatting is just fluff. 03:18:07 yes, but if they don't, there's no point in putting the disk in a computer and hoping it'll boot 03:18:10 um, I don't mean bootloaders 03:18:13 I mean BIOSes 03:18:36 Um, don't they just read the first sector and jump to it...? 03:19:51 good point 03:21:42 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:22:42 hmmm... I've always wondered how LiveCDs mangage to be architecture independent. 03:22:48 -!- augur has joined. 03:23:11 don't they have to store some kind of machine code? 03:23:14 ais523: /init is just going to be a shell script that starts some gettys and X :-) 03:23:38 CakeProphet: normally they use a machine-code polyglot 03:23:45 not architecture-independent, but working on more than one arch as a result 03:23:47 aaah. 03:24:06 machine code is a pretty simple language to polyglot, generally, as it has no syntax errors 03:24:18 it's like INTERCAL, only the bits you actually try to run have to make sense 03:24:19 most livecds aren't architecture independent 03:25:40 but when writing something like... a bootable floppy. 03:25:48 you'd want to imploy such a strategy right? 03:25:54 *employ 03:26:42 why? 03:27:09 to run on any of numerous old CPU architectures of course. 03:28:02 on a floppy? 03:28:07 how big is this hypothetical floppy?! 03:28:50 well, your bootloader is always the first sector, not the whole floppy. But I assume what you're saying is that such a thing is impractical. 03:28:54 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:29:26 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:30:45 here's a question for #esoteric 03:31:12 what would be the most difficult combination of languages to polyglot. I guess imposing a limit of 2 languages. 03:31:36 some are completely impossible, because they each require incompatible fixed headers 03:33:05 like Erlang and Haskell. 03:33:12 both require a module declaration 03:33:50 if only Erlang's compiler directives were -- instead of - :P 03:44:35 http://shinh.skr.jp/obf/poly_quine5.txt 03:44:41 I'm guessing most of you have seen this 03:44:52 but I found found it. 5-language polyglot. 03:45:56 Bye, everyone. 03:45:57 Sgeo! 03:46:25 eh :P 03:46:27 bye 03:46:31 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:18:39 -!- coppro has joined. 04:20:04 it would be cool to have a language that compiles to various polyglot styles. 04:20:43 CakeProphet: Erlang and Haskell? Sure. Just needs *literate* Haskell. ;) 04:21:06 ah. But that sounds like cheating to me. :P 04:21:15 Not really. 04:21:48 Note that Literate Haskell is defined by the Haskell98 report; just a nice feature of the language is all. 04:22:01 ha. I guess so. 04:22:13 there's a 7-lang polyglot somewhere 04:22:23 yeah I just saw it. 04:22:25 wait that's a quine?!?! 04:22:30 yes. 04:22:56 BF/C/python are the obvious ones 04:22:56 makes it even more epic right? 04:23:02 it's.... 04:23:08 C, Python, Perl, Ruby, BF 04:23:35 all quines. 04:23:51 hmmkay 04:24:11 but don't ask me how. 04:24:12 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:26:57 -!- cal153 has joined. 04:34:51 I have idea for a executable format in Linux that has something similar to COM format in DOS. But, instead, there is a small header in the file, to identify the file as this format and to tell how much memory to allocate, maybe also operating system and processor codes. Once the program is loaded, that header is replaced by the PSP in memory. And then the same memory is used for code/data/etc 04:36:02 That format is called a.out 04:38:48 No, a.out is different (I looked it up on Wikipedia) 04:40:51 this conversation is full of fail 04:42:01 coppro: Please explain better then, if everyone else failed then maybe you can explain better? 04:42:07 Your mother is fail. 04:42:34 zzo38: it's not that you failed. It's that you said things which are full of fail 04:43:16 Please describe, then, which things are full of failed 04:43:41 for starters, your the fact that you don't understand the use of 'fail' as a noun 04:44:22 OK. Anything else? 04:44:36 everything esle 04:45:57 Please be specific so that I can know what is wrong and so that I can fix it. 04:46:14 (The other thing you are fail is writing "else") 04:56:22 -!- augur has joined. 05:02:08 I've never quite understood how binary formats work. 05:02:25 very simply 05:02:27 Are they interpreted by something before they become machine code? 05:02:29 you put bytes in 05:02:32 you take bytes out 05:02:42 "binary formats" as in ELF/a.out 05:02:45 No, they are merely parsed for where to load stuff into memory. 05:02:46 oh 05:02:52 They already *contain* machine code. 05:02:57 right. 05:03:02 the kernel (usually) reads them to set the program up 05:03:27 hmmm, okay. Got it now. I just never figured out where that happens I guess. 05:03:39 but assumed it did. 05:03:39 ELF just states "These places need to be replaced with addresses corresponding to these symbols" and "This needs to be loaded at place X". 05:03:50 Well. And a bunch of other metadata. 05:04:04 I assume these are things that machine code can't do alone? 05:04:09 or rather... not easily. 05:04:19 It *is* machine code already. 05:04:33 and not in a standardized, secure way. 05:04:34 all of it? 05:04:53 Well, no. It's machine code and metadata. 05:05:02 ELF just states "These places need to be replaced with addresses corresponding to these symbols" and "This needs to be loaded at place X". 05:05:07 is this machine code or metadata? 05:05:26 The machine code has a few variables it *might* need filled in; the metadata describes where those are and what they need to be filled in with. 05:05:35 ah. 05:05:44 (along with obvious stuff like "size of machine code", "requested load address", "CPU architecture", etc.) 05:06:15 what do you mean by variables? I'm not very familiar with machine code. 05:06:31 Some of these variables (usually called "symbols") might need a shared library; if so, the ELF file also describes which shared libraries are needed. 05:06:55 They're just memory addresses. 05:07:15 don't they usually have a dynamic thunk? 05:07:17 so it contains machine code with macros (symbols), essentially? 05:07:45 coppro: Oh, right; it specifies the name of the dynamic linker too. 05:07:53 CakeProphet: For the most part. 05:08:32 because there are some things the compiler of said binary won't really know until the program executes? 05:08:46 Yeah. 05:09:11 Like which memory address functions from shared libraries happen to be loaded at. 05:09:57 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:17:01 I think you also need a simple executable format, the header needs only: Magic number; Processor type; Operating system type; Amount of memory to allocate (the same memory is shared for code/data/stack); Execute start address. 05:17:20 This is my idea of one kind of execute format 05:17:24 that can be invented 05:17:35 Having the stack anywhere near code/data makes me wince. 05:17:55 loloverflow 05:18:12 just put it so that an overrun will hit you into code, which should be protected 05:19:52 well, fixing security risks from overflows really should be done at a library level. I don't think executables should worry about it. 05:20:00 If you allocate enough memory, the stack won't be near the code/data as much. But if you think your program might stack overflow, the program can reallocate the stack when it starts, anyways. 05:20:50 most programs are not smart enough 05:22:21 This kind of executable format would be used mostly for if you are writing a small program in machine-codes which does not use a lot of stack space. 05:22:36 But can be used for larger programs as well. 05:23:45 Simply: The operating system allocates the memory, and then copies the contents of the file into the allocated memory, initialize stack pointer to the end of the allocated memory, replace the header with the PSP, and then jump to the execute start address. 05:25:45 thank you for saying it, xckd 05:25:48 *xkcd 05:27:06 DOS EXE format is not too far from that, except it's got relocation entries too. But it does allocate a single block of memory (for code and data, plus a fixed amount of extra memory for zero-initialized data). And you specify the initial stack pointer in the header, so it can be put at the end there. (I don't quite know where it usually is.) 05:27:50 -!- augur has joined. 05:31:16 I'm desperately trying to make a cross-compiler targeting System V/386 :P 05:31:21 I'm betting: miserable failure. 05:31:54 Absolutely miserable, I'm sure. 05:32:17 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:32:29 newlib actually has a sysv i386 target. 05:32:38 I have no idea whether it's maintained or has a non-zero chance of working. 05:32:46 But since I don't have the native libc, it's all I've got :P 05:33:15 Or rather, I have the native libc, but not the headers and other stuff necessary for compilation. 05:34:37 -!- augur has joined. 05:36:03 fizzie: My idea is actually different, for one thing is not limited to DOS. For another thing the header is shorter, has no relocation entries, has no checksums or initial stack setting, no overlay numbers, and only one number for how much memory, which includes the entire file as part of it. 05:36:58 Yes. I just said "not too far". 05:38:43 I don't advocate using DOS EXEs, it's a pretty messy thing. The relocs are all segment-address fixups. 05:40:53 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:44:25 I don't want to use a complicated bootloaders such as GRUB and so on, I want to use a simple one! I wrote a thirty-six bytes MBR code, so it should be mostly good enough. 05:50:20 Daaaaamn GCC takes forever to compile. 05:50:48 And all of this is just going to result in a nonworking GCC anyway :P 05:52:00 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:53:08 GCC takes nearly forever to compile. 05:53:18 zzo38: Does it load Linux? 06:06:43 -!- augur has joined. 06:06:44 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:07:21 -!- augur has joined. 06:07:37 pikhq: The thirty-six bytes MBR code does not load Linux. It loads only real-mode programs, and not more than 64K. However, it can be used to load a second loader, which then initializes protected mode and loads Linux. 06:08:56 Mmm. 06:09:07 So, it loads a COM file. 06:09:39 pikhq: Yes, except that there is no PSP and no DOS functions. 06:10:01 Still a COM file. 06:11:50 I don't think a code to fully load Linux (or even to fully initialize protected mode properly) will fit in the MBR code. 06:12:41 It does. 06:12:55 Though to load Linux does *not* entail protected mode. 06:13:30 It entails loading Linux and an initrd into memory with a command line at a given place, and jumping into its initialisation routine. 06:14:03 And how long is a code to do that? 06:15:13 512 bytes, I think. 06:15:37 I seem to recall Linux 2.4 had such a bootloader as its first 512 bytes. 06:15:52 That won't fit in the MBR code. the MBR is 512 bytes long but part of it is used for magic number and stuff 06:16:24 There is (or was, maybe) a boot sector in the kernel, yes, but it was pretty limited. Didn't do any filesystems, for example, so it could only load the kernel from a raw media. 06:16:45 And it didn't do the usual sort of separate-file initrd, it did something else instead. 06:17:15 It did support flipping floppies in-between loading the kernel and the ramdisk, though. 06:17:21 You could specify how many blocks in the initrd was using some tool to set the default command line. 06:17:28 Or just have it swap floppies. 06:17:43 It *was* quite nice to do dd if=bzimage of=/dev/fdd, though.n 06:23:45 Holy fekk GCC compiled! 06:25:19 O_o 06:26:06 pikhq: In arch/x86/boot/header.S of 2.6.33.1 (for which I had sources handy) there is in fact still a boot sector, but the boot sector just prints out the text at address "bugger_off_msg", namely "Direct booting from floppy is no longer supported. Please use a boot loader program instead." 06:26:21 Ah, right. Gah I hate that. 06:26:48 I can't imagine keeping around a freaking boot sector would take too much work. 06:27:15 It's not like the BIOS has changed since, oh, DOS 1. 06:31:26 -!- tombom has joined. 06:33:25 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 06:36:35 My dad is an idiot. 07:00:25 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:02:33 -!- SevenInchBread has joined. 07:05:09 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:11:20 How often do you use dual-licensing? 07:11:37 I more often use a general licence, than two licences 07:11:47 e.g. release something LGPL even though I only plan to use it as GPL 07:12:01 Foo. 07:12:13 MEMDISK is insufficient to boot UNIX SysV. 07:12:30 Which means unfortunately that UNIX SysV can't be turned into a delightfully absurd LiveCD. 07:12:54 ais523: Yes I can understand that, which I might do in some cases (but mostly not). Usually I don't use dual-licensing either. But sometimes I do. 07:12:57 What a shame. 07:13:21 Sgeo: Yes, your father is the embodiment of idiocy. 07:13:22 I wrote one program which is dual-licensed by "GNU GPL version 2 or later version, or Ms-RL (Microsoft Reciprocal License)". 07:13:53 Only one program, though. The reason why I did that is because it is a program which would be useful for Microsoft to include in Windows. 07:14:11 I would also be useful to include in ReactOS. 07:14:41 This particular program happens to be useless for Linux, however. 07:15:04 zzo38: somehow I doubt Microsoft would include it in Windows even if it were MS-RL licensed 07:15:09 they're rather paranoid 07:15:49 He doesn't want "other people on our network" 07:16:26 Best explanation he can give for his "no hosting" rule 07:16:28 ais523: You are probably right, but they can do so if they want to. 07:16:55 And that he needs the bandwidth. And saying "Ok, no bandwidth-intensive stuff when you're home" isn't enough. 07:17:49 he needs upload bandwidth? 07:18:01 hosting mostly uses a different sort of bandwidth from normal internet use 07:18:43 I.. don't think so. I wasn't even thinking of that, but he needs mostly download bandwidth, but this was apparently a separate issue 07:19:39 I host three protocols on my computer, and my father is OK with that. (And later I might even add more protocols) 07:20:11 My dad won't even let me host games 07:20:28 And he won't let me run a client that runs a game if I'm not attending it 07:20:47 Actually, I think he wants me to cut off Internet access when I'm not at the computer 07:21:23 Most ADSL-providing ISPs around here have slipped a "you must not connect any sort of servers to your pipe" condition to their terms and conditions, though that gets widely ignored (esp. for games), I think. 07:21:23 I think he thinks that bandwidth is a *resource*. 07:21:34 Rather than, y'know, a measurement of the size of your pipe. 07:21:56 If you eat all your bandwidth cake today, you'll go hungry tomorrow! 07:22:02 I asked if there was a cap, he said no 07:22:24 Anyways, watching the last 10 min of this SGA ep 07:22:25 Okay, so he knows nothing about hor the Internet works. 07:22:37 Clearly, he should head a Congressional commitee on it. 07:23:04 He once made me wipe my HD because I downloaded and installed a chat server 07:23:41 I know the ISP that I use is OK with hosting any protocols (I even asked them). 07:24:16 He is too stupid to be allowed to own a computer. 07:24:34 No, he is too stupid to be allowed to own any technology more complex than flint & steel. 07:25:47 pikhq: You might be right (approximately) 07:30:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:50:31 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:39 fizzie: ironically, there are ISPs that actually work like that 08:26:26 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:15:22 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:19:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:22:19 any File Hierarchy Standard experts here? I'm trying to figure out where you're supposed to put architecture-independent binaries not meant to be run by the user 09:22:26 which is a possibility I don't think they considered 09:26:23 Scripts, that is? 09:28:33 no, I said binaries 09:28:51 my current example is a Java binary 09:28:58 which runs on the JVM, thus platform-independent 09:31:52 I would stick those (but then, I have pretty much no clue of FHS) in share directory. 09:32:11 atm I'm putting it in a subdir under usr/lib 09:32:22 which is at least vaguely consistent with the other rules 09:32:33 it would obviously be the right place for the file if it was written in, say, C 10:08:25 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 10:12:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:13:31 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 10:14:01 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:18:28 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet. 10:28:09 -!- dbc has joined. 10:28:49 -!- atrapado has joined. 10:30:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 10:36:17 ais523: FWIW, Debian puts "library"-ish Java binaries in /usr/share/java/. 10:36:58 ah, I may move mine there then 10:37:13 what if they're only meant to be run by one particular shellscript? 10:38:50 I'd say there in that case too. At least ant is there, and it's mostly meant to be run by the /usr/bin/ant script, though admittedly IDEs and other such things use the Java classes "directly" too. 10:39:40 After all, with Java, you never quite know who'll want to reuse bits and pieces of you. 10:40:05 yes, I suppose so 10:40:32 On the other hand, Eclipse puts all its Java stuff into /usr/lib/eclipse/. 10:40:50 (Well, all its stuff in general, I guess.) 10:41:31 But OpenOffice.org's Java bits are in /usr/share/java/openoffice/ even though that's quite many files. 10:41:44 It doesn't seem to be much of a consensus. 10:55:20 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:00:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:08:49 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:15:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:34:58 Aren't there 32- and 64-bit versions of Java (differing mainly in array indexing). Are the bytecode files cross-compatible (32-bit ones just can't access array indexes beyond 2Gi)? 11:35:22 yes, not only that, but the bytecode format AFAICT has never been changed 11:35:45 you'll get class-loading errors if you try to run a recent Java file on an old JVM and you reference standard classes that used not to exist, but that's about it 11:35:57 Lua bytecode files are arch-specific... 11:35:58 (and you can use reflection to get around that problem) 11:36:10 the JVM arch-portability is the whole point 11:37:05 Heh... Mention of errors bring me flashbacks from making app that has optional GUI and from making app that uses JNI and works on both GCJ and Sun JVM... 11:37:33 (two different apps, both wound up having to catch errors)... 11:40:21 GCJ links JNI libs into executable, so you don't have to load them and attempts to load them would error out anyway. Sun JVM requires loading the libs... 11:41:06 And if you call GUI function when there is no GUI available (and not in headless mode) you get an error (not merely an exception). 11:41:22 (some class does not exist error). 11:50:47 At least you can be assured that whatever is thrown is a subclass of Throwable. In C++ someone could throw an elephant at you. 11:51:38 I've seen code that throws undocumented unsigned integers, and has a single top-level catch which prints "error n" and dies. Helpful! 11:52:42 And multiple instances of code that throws string constants that are used as the error messages. (Which is pretty Perlish in a way.) 11:53:59 Or Luaish... 11:54:51 I'm tempted to try out what happens if I throw a non-Throwable from a JNI method, but this phone keyboard is not very comfortable for coding. 11:55:02 fizzie: I remember when I was learning C++, I threw integers just because I could 11:55:15 (Well, error can take any type of value, but usually it is string that is "thrown"). 11:56:45 Apparently in one piece of code, due to bugs threw std::string's... 11:58:14 (just guess what kind of programming error causes code that should throw subclasses of std::exception to throw std::string's instead...) 11:58:32 throwing the message of an exception rather than the exception itself? 12:00:21 Pretty much. Forgetting to actually specify the class to throw ('+ std::string +' makes it std::string). 12:00:36 Like 'throw ("foo" + bar)'. 12:00:58 When it should be 'throw std::runtime_error("foo" + bar)'. 12:01:16 ais523, what is wrong with being able to throw integer? 12:01:45 AnMaster: it becomes unmaintainable pretty easily 12:01:54 and interferes with the use of exceptions for exception handling 12:02:10 ais523, how would it work in languages without objects but with exceptions? 12:02:15 if the exception is unhandled, whatever code is calling you, rather than getting a nice exception object it can query and show to the use, gets a meaningless number 12:02:17 if you weren't allowed to throw any data type 12:02:27 I see nothing wrong with allowing it 12:02:31 right 12:02:34 but even if allowed, I don't think it's a feature that should be use 12:02:36 *used 12:02:52 ais523, I suggest throwing meaningful tuples instead 12:02:58 At least in Lua, one can "throw" a table... 12:03:10 like {error,failed} ;) 12:03:30 AnMaster: is that meaningful? 12:03:38 ais523, no, it was a joke 12:04:07 erlang has exceptions and allows you to throw pretty much any data type (iirc there is some restrictions wrt "references" to things like open files and such) 12:04:13 s/is/are/ 12:04:38 and erlang doesn't have object orientation so restricting it to "exceptions" wouldn't work 12:04:50 Worst is where code throws integers that change (new important ones are added) between versions. And there's no integer to string method... 12:04:53 usually you throw tuples or atoms 12:05:03 and document what stuff you may throw 12:05:33 when you get a runtime exception it tends to be a tuple with the first member being an atom indicating the type 12:05:39 So caller may suddenly get "Error 75" and has no idea what it is supposed to be... 12:06:01 such as badmatch, or badarith (usually div by zero) 12:06:57 it seems to work pretty well 12:07:19 Perl does allow throwing references in addition to just strings, I'm not sure how much that gets used though. 12:08:13 fizzie, I think you can throw some references, such as pids. What I'm unsure about is if you can throw ports or not. ports is a low level stuff in erlang which is basically a thin wrapper around an fd most of the time 12:08:21 usually you don't work directly with ports anyway 12:09:33 ooh, now I want to write a Perl program that throws a typeglob 12:09:35 Perl "references" is perhaps a bit different term; usually it's just references to arrays or hash tables. 12:09:38 but I'm not entirely sure why 12:09:46 fizzie, ah 12:09:59 ais523: I was just about to say I wouldn't try that. :p 12:10:11 hm erlang has references too. In that case it is a kind of "guarantied unique id" thingy 12:10:15 Perl references are like C pointers, except they're refcounted and you can't do arithmetic on them 12:10:23 which I assume you can throw 12:10:50 What's a typeglob? 12:10:53 You could probably throw an IO::Handle without much problems in Perl, but it's not as distributedy as Erlang. 12:11:12 basically there is a runtime function that will return a new reference every time, and you can't construct arbitrary references out of the air. Well perhaps you can with some debugger function, wouldn't surprise me. 12:11:36 fizzie, oh yeah ports are local to the node. Which is why you don't work with ports directly most of the time 12:11:56 you work with an IO server process provided by the runtime by default unless you open the file in a raw mode. 12:12:18 well there are other good reasons for the io server process. Like it provides buffering. 12:12:34 (iirc) 12:12:49 Ilari: don't ask what a typeglob is, it takes too long to explain and even when you do you get it wrong 12:13:02 fizzie, I assume you could throw a fun *tests* 12:13:03 IIRC most explanations of how they work basically just give you a list of examples 12:13:12 fun being like a lambda or a function pointer 12:13:13 can be either 12:13:42 http://www.sdsc.edu/~moreland/courses/IntroPerl/docs/manual/pod/perldata.html#Typeglobs_and_Filehandles has (one) official explanation. 12:13:47 2> catch throw(fun erlang:abs/1). 12:13:47 #Fun 12:13:48 yep 12:13:56 (Or your local perldoc perldata.) 12:14:14 that is function pointer style 12:14:16 3> catch throw(fun(X) -> X*X end). 12:14:16 #Fun 12:14:20 lambda style works just as well 12:16:20 make_ref() -> ref() 12:16:20 Returns an almost unique reference. 12:16:20 The returned reference will re-occur after approximately 2^82 calls; therefore it is unique enough for practical purposes. 12:16:20 heh 12:16:21 argh lag spike 12:16:22 or timing out 12:16:30 AnMaster: ... 12:16:35 throw(fun party/2) -- when you want to arrange a pleasant party for two. 12:16:48 Ilari, ? 12:17:33 fizzie, well that requires a function party in the same module that takes two parameters 12:20:58 6> (catch throw(fun(X) -> X*X end))(3). 12:20:58 9 12:21:00 hm 12:21:10 so 12:21:36 (catch throw(fun party/2))(self(), 12:21:37 hm 12:21:44 who should I put there?) 12:22:48 (self() is a function that returns the pid [that is erlang pid, not related to OS pids at all] of the current process btw) 12:27:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Arrivederci). 13:20:20 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:23:45 -!- augur has joined. 13:24:35 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 13:35:58 " He doesn't want "other people on our network" <<< maybe he downloads a lot of CP and is paranoid because of that? 13:36:11 *"" 13:36:23 (thought i typoed and deleted the other one) 13:38:38 anyone here program on the S/390? 13:38:49 i'm looking at an S/380 emulator 13:52:38 Hrm, an ad banner with the link URL ending ...&cb=INSERT_RANDOM_NUMBER_HERE. I guess they assume a DWIM-browser. 13:53:27 or DWIM server to serve the ads 13:53:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:03:32 huh strange thing 14:04:18 there are some speed reduction thingies on this street, in the form of two boxes that forces you to slow down and drive in the shape of an S 14:04:41 today, two different lorries have drove up to it, and then backed down the whole street 14:04:50 first time it happened afaik 14:05:40 and just now a tow truck doing the same 14:05:46 very strange 15:05:43 lol 15:43:47 -!- lifthras1ir has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:58:24 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 15:58:44 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:59:14 how strange for an embedded system to have a snprintf() that inserts "(null string)" if %s is passed a NULL pointer 15:59:24 cpressey: A real .com file from an unmodified Linux x86-64 GCC+ld, with command line arguments only (no fiddling with .specs): http://pastebin.com/eChGDKDy 15:59:27 I mean, I would have expected undefined behaviour 16:00:01 fizzie, btw I managed to get some more free space on that device by tuning off features in config.h that I didn't use 16:00:21 AnMaster: Well, if it's undefined, "(null string)" is perfectly valid too. 16:00:23 about 2 kB extra 16:00:54 fizzie, yes but you wouldn't expect an embedded OS to waste space on 1) the code to check for that 2) the space to store the constant "(null string)" 16:01:50 On the other hand, it's more robust that way. 16:01:53 true 16:02:17 but since this doesn't have an MMU there are loads of other ways to crash it anyway. 16:02:32 battery.o: DBase 3 data file with memo(s) (813309772 records) 16:02:37 hm I think file fails 16:03:13 objdump is way more correct: battery.o: file format coff-h8300 16:04:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:05:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:06:07 fizzie: You rock! 16:07:31 fizzie, a lot of linker fiddling though it seems 16:07:34 cpressey: It works in dosemu, but I'm a bit suspicious of how I'm accessing 0xa0000 via ds initialized to 0; I thought in real mode it would automatically set the segment limits to 64k. (It's easily fixable by putting 0xa000 into ds and initializing the videomem ptr to 0 instead.) And it's ugly code since GCC generates 32-bit everything, and ".code16gcc" just adds instruction prefix bytes to make that work in a 16-bit segment. 16:07:55 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:08:55 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 16:09:12 AnMaster: Yes, and I couldn't quite figure out how to make it put the .data segment immediately after .text (without a separate linker script file); done that way it'll probably lose if you put in any (initialized or uninitialized) static data, except if you put in a __attribute__ ((section (".text"))) in. 16:09:24 Goodness, you've spent 17 hours talking about this? 16:09:36 Phantom_Hoover: No, I just started when cpressey came in. 16:09:53 Phantom_Hoover: Good timing there. 16:10:13 It certainly gave a nice sense of flow. 16:11:06 XD 16:11:07 fizzie: dosemu is actually running in a psuedo-real mode. If it works there, it *should* work on actual DOS. 16:11:21 pikhq: Uh, sorry, dosbox is what I meant to say. 16:11:23 17? There was a weekend in between... we've been talking about it for 65 hours straight! 16:11:47 Oh. DOSbox *ought* to work, as that's actual (emulated) realmode, but there is a chance of bugs. 16:12:07 Right; I'm not sure how thorough they are with sanity-checks against illegal behaviour like that. 16:12:17 also who knows if it would work with different drivers and such loaded 16:13:47 Dosbox has a couple of different CPU core emulation modes, especially the dynamic-recompilation one might be a bit fast-and-furious here and there. 16:15:07 how do you list sections for a coff file? readelf -S obviously doesn't work 16:15:31 I have binutils tools for the architecture available, not much else 16:15:41 (well there is gcc too) 16:15:46 Get a binutils for Windows and objdump?n 16:15:49 Well, "objdump -h" ("section headers") or something. 16:15:58 pikhq, what would that help? it is not for x86 at all 16:16:10 fizzie, ah hm 16:16:19 Oh, COFF. Not PE. 16:16:23 fizzie, yep that works. thanks 16:16:25 Which is nearly COFF. 16:16:30 pikhq, coff-h8300 16:16:34 But yeah; objdump for the relevant architecture. 16:16:50 pikhq, a 16-bit platform. big endian too 16:18:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:25:59 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:28:15 AnMaster: Hopefully this'll mean I can now read that SDHC card too without going through the camera: http://sprunge.us/UdMB (and what a generic name there). 16:30:10 (On the other hand, the old card reader's ID for the different slots was actually "Generic [cardtype]". 16:33:20 fizzie, hm? 16:33:47 We talked about card readers not many days ago. 16:33:54 fizzie, as long as it is usb mass storage interface 16:34:10 and not some other one. Let me find that hilarious driver in the linux kernel 16:34:52 The old one didn't do SDHC, just plain old-fashioned SD cards. (And I think it was the slower USB 1.1, this should be 2.0-capable. Not that my cards are probably very snappy either.) 16:37:18 huh, no longer there? 16:37:44 fizzie, found with google: http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/mmc/host/ricoh_mmc.c?v=2.6.28 but it seems gone in newer kernels 16:37:59 fizzie, read the comment starting with "This is a conceptually ridiculous driver" 16:38:05 Initial impressions; they've gone a bit overkill with the "I'm doing something" LED's brightness; it almost put my eye out. (Well, maybe not; but it has the "gritty" bloom-like effect I've only seen with laser pointers so far. Yes, yes, I know you're not supposed to look at those.) 16:40:34 -!- JodaZ_ has quit. 16:41:08 * Phantom_Hoover wants a Look Around You pencil. 16:41:43 Or a Besselheim plate. 16:42:38 fizzie, aha: 16:42:39 http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/stable/linux-2.6.34.y.git;a=commitdiff;h=03cd8f7ebe0cbef5ca7eed349774085e92a3d726 16:45:08 USB devices are full of quirks. The PS3 "sixaxis" controller follows the USB HID spec in everything that matters, except that you need to send a HID_REQ_GET_REPORT request with a specific, nonstandard type (0xf2) before it goes into "operational mode" (i.e. works). 16:45:32 Personally I can't figure out any other reason for that except that they don't want people to be able to just plug that thing into a PC and have it working. 16:45:35 That's what makes it "Universal". 16:45:56 universal quirks? 16:46:56 fizzie, and sometimes the quirks mess up for other devices. Like this bug that was finally resolved in 2.6.34, had to revert that quirk for other products locally for quite a few releases... https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14049 16:49:56 who knows how long it will stay working for me however 16:52:10 well, it's supposed to help haven't tested it yet 16:52:23 How do I shut down pulseaudio. 16:52:24 ? 16:53:36 no clue, why do you want to? 16:53:51 I presume there is some init script 16:53:53 FlightGear has significant issues with PA. 16:54:31 hm 16:54:37 Phantom_Hoover, afaik flightgear uses openal 16:54:50 so I guess openal has issues with pa 16:54:55 Maybe. 16:55:12 All I know is that in the past it has run much better without PA. 16:55:12 you know what's interesting 16:55:38 Phantom_Hoover, ubuntu at least has /etc/init.d/pulseaudio 16:55:48 There's also "pasuspender" in many systems. 16:56:01 It does a "temporarily disable pulseaudio until a process has finished" thing. 16:56:07 if i make out with chicks who know i have a gf, they are fine with it without exception, once i mention i'm in an open relationship, they go all wtf get some morals dude 16:56:25 fizzie, I'll try that. 16:56:30 So you can do "pasuspender -- foo bar baz", and it'll run "foo bar baz", wait until it terminates, then restore pulseaudio functionalities. 16:56:34 I've never tried it, though. 16:56:37 oklopol, people make no sense. 16:56:56 It doesn't exactly shut down the daemon, it just tells it to disconnect all access to audio devices. 16:57:18 indeed they don't 16:58:38 fizzie, how do I just kill the daemon? 16:58:41 how does one edit keyboard shortcuts in gnome for some application. gnome-terminal in this case. 16:58:54 I thought there was some option to enable editing in the menus but I can't find it 16:58:58 so what's the puzzle today, oerjan 16:59:01 oh 16:59:02 damn 16:59:18 AnMaster, it's somewhere in Appearance IIRC. 16:59:41 hm 16:59:52 No, that's not it. 16:59:57 also people like to preach how that kind of relationships don't work without ever having been in as long a relationship as us 17:00:05 WELL COMMENTS 17:00:06 ?? 17:00:06 Phantom_Hoover, I think it used to be, maybe they removed it -_- 17:00:18 yeah you talk about daemons boring people 17:00:26 or wait what are you talking about 17:00:28 i'll read 17:00:33 No, I'm pretty sure I saw it in 10.04. 17:00:49 Phantom_Hoover, hm tell me if you find it 17:00:56 Phantom_Hoover, I'm going to try gconf now 17:01:03 okay i can't tell, what's the topic 17:01:07 GYAAH, I *remember* seeing it! 17:01:16 i have a few comments 17:01:17 Phantom_Hoover, exactly my feeling 17:01:22 oklopol, are you talking to us? 17:01:31 who else? 17:01:33 ah 17:01:38 no i'm asking myself what i'm talking aboutz 17:01:42 *about 17:01:54 oklopol, yes, people are weird about sexual mores. We get it. 17:02:03 Phantom_Hoover: i don't actually want comments 17:02:08 it was umm 17:02:12 sarcasm or something 17:02:15 Phantom_Hoover, found it in gconf anyway 17:02:27 i just like changing these kinds of topics, what topic is this? 17:03:05 GUIs and stuff. 17:03:09 Phantom_Hoover, I'm just confused I can't find it in settings either on ubuntu or arch linux. But last I saw it was in jaunty 17:03:10 okay cool 17:03:11 i have one of those 17:03:14 Why they're horribly unintuitive. 17:03:16 and karmic I just ran for about 2 days 17:03:25 yeah computers suck 17:03:36 and i guess guis specifically suck 17:03:43 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:04:12 Phantom_Hoover: "pacmd exit" kills the daemon, but at least in my case it automagically starts up again all the time, possibly via dbus or who-knows-what-magic. 17:04:17 Phantom_Hoover, I almost want to go to gnome's irc server and ask, but you never get any reply there 17:04:35 fizzie, chmod -x 17:04:37 should fix it ;P 17:04:57 Possibly "sudo service pulseaudio stop" (or the likely-equivalent /etc/init.d/pulseaudio stop) will actually really make it stop. 17:05:01 fizzie, heck I remember I used that back during KDE 3.x to prevent artsd from running 17:05:17 so how about this esolang that's like brainfuck but you have different kinds of fart sounds as commands? 17:05:24 and maybe 17:05:29 oklopol, is it on the wiki? 17:05:30 fizzie, it says something about per-user sessions. 17:05:31 and what is the name 17:05:32 one command could play a fart sound on the speakers 17:05:38 AnMaster: no :D 17:05:48 i'm just being noisy 17:05:53 hmm 17:05:54 #ifndef DOXYGEN_SHOULD_SKIP_INTERNALS 17:05:55 heh 17:06:00 what are the fart sounds in english i wonder 17:06:02 i'll google 17:06:02 Still, pasuspender (or just a manual "pacmd suspend") should make it detach and close the audio devices, so that they're available to other apps. 17:06:09 so we can get this thing started 17:06:21 probably best idea this year so i'm expecting full cooperation 17:06:58 Finally, it's dead. 17:07:10 whatever happened to dmix or whatever the name was 17:07:17 software mixer in alsa itself wasn't it? 17:07:25 why would anyone need anything more than that 17:07:37 I'm lucky my desktop has hardware mixer however 17:08:35 Many people need "more than that", but of course there was already jack and such for the audio-enthusiasts. Still, I don't feel pulse's so horrible; of course I haven't been bitten by very bad bugs (yet). 17:09:13 fizzie, yes there is jackd for the "more than that" case. I don't see any niche for pulseaudio though 17:10:37 pavucontrol's reasonably nice; you see a list of all apps that are generating sounds, and can switch which pipe (digital output to the amp, USB sound card to headphones, bluetooth headset) you want them to make noises to, easily. Of course with most apps you can specify the ALSA device, but it might not be in a easily accessible place, hidden in some preferences dialog or other. 17:10:53 hm 17:10:54 erm, i can't find a list 17:11:10 mostly i find "pfft"as a suggestion 8\ 17:11:15 *"pfft" as 17:11:16 fizzie, but who would play two different videos at once while also listening to music? 17:11:25 fizzie, that seems like a non-existent use case 17:11:38 maybe finnish fart sounds then 17:11:40 do we have those? 17:11:45 pruut? :D 17:11:50 sure, pulseaudio fills it, but most such apps can set their own volumes 17:12:02 not sure about mplayer, but vlc can and iirc so can xine 17:12:03 wtf, why wouldn't there be decent onomatopoeia for farts 17:12:16 AnMaster: Not at the same time (very often), but I do keep using e.g. different outputs for Flash sound, and for Flash it's really inconvenient to start changing the ALSA device it uses. 17:12:28 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 17:12:44 but anyway maybe we can use pf^+t for now do you agree? 17:12:47 hm 17:12:55 pft and pfft could be + and - 17:12:56 but then 17:13:06 fizzie, file bug report for flash ;P 17:13:20 pffft isn't <, because that wouldn't be very esoteric would it?!? so we SKIP the three xD 17:13:29 so pfffft is < 17:13:42 and then maybe pffffft is > because on the other hand we don't wanna be TOO esoteric 17:13:51 okay getting kind of long, we'll carry to g 17:13:52 fizzie, anyway, most cases of different volumes at the same time I can think of would be bg music/other sounds in games. And that would probably be mixed by openal before it reached alsa or pulseaudio 17:13:53 pgt is [ 17:13:58 then pgft for ] 17:14:18 oklopol, this is just like ook, rather boring 17:14:18 and outputs, well we just need the actual fart command, that'll be prrrrt no matter whether it's actually used, i like it. 17:14:30 no i think it's hilarious xxxxxxxD 17:14:33 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 17:14:34 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 17:14:37 :( 17:14:38 bbl 17:14:44 bye 17:14:46 come back soon 17:14:47 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:14:48 we have much to talk about 17:14:56 and someone needs to start working on the spec 17:15:09 AnMaster: I don't really need the mixing-together part of pulseaudio (or ALSA's dmix, or a hardware mixer) very often. 17:15:12 does anyone have a weekend to spare soon? 17:15:35 this is a pretty important project so you can probably skip weddings and funerals and the like. 17:16:32 okay now to add esotericness, maybe just MAYBE there could also be, occasionally, fart sounds even if you don't use the command, and kinda like in intercal, if you don't fart often enough then the program crashes=!?=!?!? crashes = makes a fart sound and dies 17:16:47 i wish alise was here 17:17:22 hmmm 17:17:25 wait actually 17:17:28 oklopol: You can't find others to fart with? 17:17:29 maybe we want input? 17:17:36 like 17:17:40 you can fart in a microphone 17:17:47 and it interprets it somehow 17:17:54 obv you can just store farts on the tape 17:18:05 there are 256 different fart values 17:18:06 Just don't ask me to start building some sort of fart-recognition system. 17:18:09 0 is a special fart 17:18:10 :D 17:18:27 well you're the sound recognition dude, so i was just assuming 17:18:42 anyway 0 is called the SMELLY FART 17:18:43 no wait 17:18:49 farts are always smelly? 17:18:51 then maybe 17:18:55 WET fart xD 17:18:58 isn't that just hilarious 17:19:34 and i don't really understand how [ and ] work in brainf*ck we should probably copy the sementics 17:19:37 Do you have some sort of a "thing" with farts? 17:20:13 you say first 17:20:18 or wait 17:20:21 we'll count to three 17:20:25 and then we'll both say 17:20:29 whether we have a fart fetish? 17:20:44 i should probably not irc anymore today 17:20:51 Yes, that might be safer. 17:21:21 wow it's late :\ 17:21:26 i was gonna do stuff today 17:21:28 :( 17:21:59 * oklopol considers putting "FARTS LOL xD" on the wiki 17:22:29 or F-101-xD, that looks pretty scientific 17:22:33 You've just been farting around, then, eh? 17:22:45 it's kinda like acronym but there's leet and cool smileys too 17:22:46 "The act or process of wandering aimlessly with no particular goal", according to ud. 17:23:07 i'm not sure i've been wandering 17:23:15 but i've been reading about nonwandering, does that count 17:23:18 "delaying something unnecessarily by dawdling, and slacking off"? 17:24:41 that sounds more like it 17:25:48 AnMaster: Oh, incidentally; if you remember the "gift card to a store that had closed down all their retail places" thing, I finally got an answer out of them (24-hour email response time my... well, backside); the gift card is unusable in their webshop, but works directly in those "Gigantti" retail stores; the systems are compatibbel. 17:26:41 okay umm i tried to read about [ and ] on the wiki but it doesn't make any sense, maybe we could leave those out because i doubt anyone has the time to implement them are they important?? 17:27:40 i tried to stop 17:27:41 hey 17:27:43 i have an idea 17:27:45 -!- oklopol has quit. 17:27:58 -!- relet has joined. 17:28:06 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:28:10 got ya 17:28:21 -> 17:30:36 oklopol, [] in Brainfuck? 17:31:00 He is just being silly. 17:31:10 It's an oko thing to do. 17:36:03 i seriously hope that isn't hard to tell :P 17:36:57 although i do seriously want to put the fart language on the wiki, but don't worry i won't 17:36:57 -!- tombom has joined. 17:36:59 As a programming challenge, [I won the previous one, so I got to make the challenge], I asked the class to implement BF without [] 17:37:10 That was too hard, so I asked just for HQ9+ 17:37:18 No one did it 17:37:33 also this is not a relapse, i started making food. 17:37:33 [Admittedly, I did make a mistake in what was supposed to be a hint] 17:37:46 it was too hard? :D 17:37:55 holy shit 17:38:04 or you mean no one cared to do it 17:38:30 or no one was able to write a loop that loops over a string 17:38:34 I think there's at least one person who would have cared to do it, but he didn't know where to start 17:38:41 Also: This was in bash, so... 17:38:57 uni course? 17:39:11 or wait you probably don't have anything else anymore given your age 17:40:06 well anything as fun as a competition doesn't exactly sound like uni stuff 17:40:11 or maybe our uni is boring 17:40:32 oklopol: We have that AI competition, and it's at a university. 17:40:38 well yeah i know 17:40:47 There aren't very many courses with that sort of stuff, though. 17:40:57 It was a small inclass competition 17:41:23 we were supposed to have a competition on one course but then the lecturer never got to writing the platform thing so we ended up doing something retarded 17:41:27 The embedded-systems course have this programmable car, and they have a car-racing competition along a (marked with masking tape) track at the lobby of the CS building. 17:41:46 I didn't do the course, but I've read the instructions once. 17:41:51 lol that sounds cool 17:42:14 -!- cpressey has changed nick to NewNumber2. 17:42:18 There's some sort of an exam before they let you run your stuff on the car, and I think the acceleration values were limited somehow, they're a bit worried about breaking their hardware. 17:42:29 NewNumber2: did coppro retire? 17:42:41 oklopol: That would be telling. 17:42:53 but that's the reference? 17:42:58 just checking 17:43:05 o 17:43:05 o 17:43:05 o 17:43:17 okay now this is starting to seem like a relapse 17:43:18 -> 17:43:47 oklopol: Looks like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9rAEyYqfjw -- except you already went. 17:43:51 oklopol: Not unless the subtext of "The Prisoner" is much... deeper... than I had previously considered. 17:44:17 (Caution: not a very exciting video.) 17:47:17 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:50:11 NewNumber2: i have no idea what that is, i'm going with coppro 17:50:28 fizzie: me looks 17:51:14 -!- NewNumber2 has changed nick to cpressey. 17:51:52 fizzie: tbh the actual race does not look very exciting :D 17:52:43 oklopol: Yes, it's mostly fun to watch when the cars go all wrong. 17:53:03 Like at the start of http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=6T_hvq2ptuQ 17:53:19 Still, it's probably more fun to code than to spectate. 17:53:39 (Adding some rocket fuel could make it pretty exciting too.) 17:56:38 there should be what is essentially BattleBots but with a live shell as the control. 17:56:58 BattleBots? 17:57:21 Oh, like Robot Wars. 17:57:27 It was this show that aired on TechTV back in the day. US TV station, but I think the show is international (or at least non-US. There were lots of people with English accents) 17:57:30 oh wait 17:57:32 that's what it was called. 17:57:39 I think BattleBots is like a children's toy or something. :P 17:59:38 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:00:28 There is a BattleBots show too. 18:01:27 " Wars was a USA based robot competition[1] from 1994-1997. Its considerably modified British equivalent was broadcast on BBC Two from 1998 until 2002, with its final series broadcast on Five in 2003." + "BattleBots is an American company that hosts robot competitions. BattleBots is also the name of the television show created from the competition footage." 18:01:57 There was a Finnish localization of one of those, don't know which one. 18:02:19 Never watched it; using remote controls feels somehow like cheating to me, the bots ought to be autonomous. 18:02:35 ha 18:02:41 no, it wouldn't be as fun to watch. 18:02:43 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Abandonando). 18:02:49 unless you had some spot-on AI. 18:03:08 but that's difficult in the real-world, outside of your neatly organized memory model. :) 18:04:15 -!- coppro has joined. 18:04:20 Also the robotic overlord issue. 18:04:47 ah. yes. Slipped my mind. 18:05:37 When I'm programming sentient AI for robots with self-replication functionality... I never hardcode a manual shutdown mechanism out of sheer principle. 18:05:51 It would be murder. 18:06:14 It's your one ticket to fame: you'll be remembered in history books as the betrayer of the human race. 18:06:17 Yes. It would be anti-evolution, which would be anti-life. You're not anti-life, are you? Of course now. 18:06:23 *not. 18:06:45 fizzie, mhm, nice that the gift card works somewhere at least 18:07:13 Somehow I'm reminded of http://isometric.sixsided.org/strips/grease_the_wheel/ for no particular reason. 18:07:51 okay this is a strange new issue. My thinkpad on resume keeps having backlight set to 0 18:07:56 or almost zero 18:08:03 one step it seems 18:08:19 very strange, it is on AC, it wasn't behaving like this yesterday 18:09:05 Reading college-level students saying the simplistic things I've ever heard kind of causes me to lose hope in humanity. 18:09:10 *the most 18:09:15 another thing, why the fuck does the battery indicator in gnome think the battery is charging. It is not. It is a 50% charge and it won't begin to charge again until it reaches 20% 18:09:28 * AnMaster loves this thinkpad feature. Helps prolong battery life 18:09:59 echo 100 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/stop_charge_thresh 18:09:59 echo 20 > /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0/start_charge_thresh 18:10:02 in rc.local :) 18:12:08 I use sysctl.conf 18:12:14 but yeah 18:12:32 AnMaster, stop taunting me with your superior computer. 18:12:34 though you can probably do better by not going to 100 18:12:45 going to 100 is actually pretty stressful on Li-ion 18:13:45 wouldn't want to hurt its feelings. 18:14:03 Phantom_Hoover, eh? 18:14:16 coppro, how does sysctl.conf work for /sys? 18:14:21 coppro, this isn't /proc/sys 18:14:22 I have a crappy computer/ 18:14:25 err 18:14:27 sysfs.conf 18:14:34 coppro, huh, never heard of that 18:14:57 coppro, where would the file be? 18:14:59 you need to install something for it 18:15:09 coppro, ah, rc.local seems better then 18:16:10 in http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Maintenance#Battery_treatment 18:16:33 hm 18:17:05 hmmm... I wonder if sentient machines could formulate an ideal government/society. 18:17:38 or if they are handicapped in this goal by sentience in the same way humans are. 18:20:10 crappy computers > superior computers 18:20:18 choke on THAT, robot overlords! 18:20:26 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:25:46 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:26:01 -!- augur has joined. 18:27:30 humans: talking monkeys with talking electric boxes 18:30:09 ? 18:32:10 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 18:32:13 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:34:03 Sentient computers tend to be rather unrealistic. 18:38:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:41:19 -!- casdoro1 has joined. 18:46:08 -!- casdoro1 has left (?). 19:04:02 coppro, btw on my thinkpad the smapi settings seems to stay as long as the battery is in, while that page on thinkwiki suggests it only stays as long as AC is in 19:24:10 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:26:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:36:07 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:37:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:38:38 -!- Geekthras has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:41:59 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:44:56 -!- Geekthras has joined. 19:48:50 Oh crap 19:49:02 Stony Brook doesn't have a Computer Science MS, afaict 19:49:12 MS? 19:51:55 isn't MS something you see on boats? 19:52:04 in the names I mean 19:52:44 ah yes, "motor ship" according to wikipedia 19:52:53 a compsci boat sounds fun though 19:53:13 but probably not what Sgeo meant 19:53:31 * Sgeo meant master's 19:53:34 oh 19:53:36 lol 19:54:30 Sgeo, change university then? I mean, once I'm done with my bachelor, I'm not going to continue at this university. Only compsci master they have is about AI, and that is boring 19:54:39 so going to switch university then. 19:54:58 hey, I know several AI Ph.D.s or candidates 19:55:15 Well, PhD's are boring too! 19:55:25 coppro, yes but I find the subject boring 19:55:46 I think it's just that I want some sort of CompSci degree, and not "Computer Programming/Information Systems" 19:56:17 Sgeo: That's all the BSc covers these days at most schools, isn't it. 19:57:21 Look, here's Java! And this is what an algorithm looks like! And an OS! Oh, now spend 60 hours straight on this "software engineering" project! Great, now go away! 19:57:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:58:58 cpressey, heh, so true 19:59:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:59:17 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 20:05:17 cpressey, this is why I have firmly resolved not to go into CS. 20:06:32 Phantom_Hoover: Good move. Although what other fields are there for a young, aspiring computer geek? EE will rot your brain, while Mathematics will destroy your soul... 20:07:00 Meh. 20:07:15 I have AnMaster's first-born child's soul. 20:07:20 I'm not exactly short. 20:07:25 Phantom_Hoover, you don't 20:07:38 I have it in potentia. 20:07:41 Always good to be prepared for these things. 20:07:43 Phantom_Hoover, not that either 20:08:08 I also have the soul of someone I know in real life. 20:08:11 * CakeProphet was considering Computer Engineering. 20:08:16 cpressey, there was some basic EE stuff in this CS course. I can easily see how more of it would not be a good idea 20:08:34 but I think I'll probably stick to Computer Science, as I know for certain that I enjoy it. 20:08:37 mathematics yeah... I hate analysis 20:09:14 though computer engineers have a higher median salary... CS salary isn't really that shabby either. 20:09:54 CakeProphet, this compsci is closer to compeng to tell the truth. But most are nowdays 20:10:05 Compeng? 20:10:08 well 20:10:15 I love these portmanteaux. 20:10:21 extrapolating from compsci, computer engineering must be compeng 20:10:24 AnMaster: really? My university's programming is pretty much strictly programming. 20:10:42 CakeProphet, yes but that isn't compsci really. compsci is way more theoretical 20:10:54 Right, so what does computer engineering entail? 20:10:56 Proper compsci is a math discipline 20:11:00 AnMaster: ah. Then perhaps you're talking about Software Engineering 20:11:03 coppro, exactly 20:11:07 Computer Engineering is basically EE but specialized. 20:11:17 CakeProphet, hm. 20:11:18 EE? 20:11:23 electrical engineering. 20:11:24 You guys want software engineering 20:11:25 ... 20:11:40 at my university there's practicalyly no difference between software engineering and compsci 20:11:41 Oh, right, so it would be designing chips and such? 20:11:54 coppro, I want compsci but I get a tiny bit of compsci with mostly softeng mixed up with some compeng :/ 20:11:59 but I mean... it would be ridiculous to dump someone in a theoretical computer science class without teaching them programming basics first. 20:12:02 coppro: The observation was that "proper compsci" is really rare these days, at most schools 20:12:12 it is :( 20:12:18 indeed :( 20:12:19 Phantom_Hoover: yes. 20:12:25 thankfully I'm going to UW 20:12:30 uw? 20:12:42 ...I told you. We need an acronym counting bot. 20:12:47 University of Waterloo 20:12:56 ah 20:13:03 coppro, which country? 20:13:23 Canada 20:13:29 I do believe later courses will be more thereotical. I have to take a complexity theory class... though I'm already way ahead of that. 20:14:16 Is it sad that my best laugh in a long time was in response to someone posting a picture of a clam to someone saying "I'm sure a this thread will contain a clam and reasonable discussion of religion and Apple." 20:14:18 ? 20:14:38 btw, according to powertop, ubuntu lucid is by default way worse than jaunty 20:14:50 and not sure how to fix most of that 20:14:57 but I don't really go to university for the knowledge (though it is nice to have knowledgable professors to discuss things with). I'm purely interested in the credentials. I can learn at my own leisure just about whatever I want. 20:15:40 so I'm not too upset that my compsci degree won't include much theoretics. 20:15:50 Sgeo, don't know, however: it is sad that you ask us about opinions on such things all the time 20:16:02 CakeProphet: I went for the piece of paper too. But made good use of the library access while I was there. Plus *some* of the courses were not lame. 20:16:08 hmmm, does anyone here actually have a BA or higher in compsci? 20:16:20 BA? No, mine's a BSC. 20:16:21 cpressey: the library access is quite nice. And yes, I agree. 20:16:26 BA? BSC? 20:16:26 er... right 20:16:30 not BA 20:16:37 BS :D 20:16:46 It's possible. Some Uni's treat it and math as arts. 20:16:48 Go figure. 20:16:49 I'm going for a BMath myself 20:16:57 Well, I mean I can see math not being a science. 20:16:59 it isn't even called that in Sweden 20:17:45 cpressey: Computer Music Journal is great. :D 20:17:57 what? 20:18:02 gives me ideas for all the awesome experimental computer music I've yet to make. 20:18:10 AnMaster: Talking about awesome libraries. 20:18:13 at universities. 20:18:22 CakeProphet, I meant that journal thingy 20:18:31 it's exactly what it sounds like. :D 20:18:35 CakeProphet, online? 20:18:40 hmmm... part of it is. 20:18:43 link? 20:18:45 through... MIT press I think. 20:19:08 I don't think the newer ones are on there though. Academia likes to be non-open for whatever reason. 20:19:21 http://www.mitpressjournals.org/cmj 20:20:00 One project I have in mind is transforming a wii-mote into a musical instruments / MIDI controller 20:20:18 gah, it needs cookies 20:20:22 how silly 20:20:33 ...do you have your browser set to ask you about such things? 20:20:42 yes, and I click no all the time 20:20:42 * CakeProphet cares not about cookies. 20:21:07 I've yet to witness any detrimental impact to accepting all cookies yet. 20:22:03 AnMaster: ah, other way around actually. The online version has new issues but not old. 20:22:08 the old ones are the best though. 20:22:35 but they're all great. All interesting ways to create and process digital audio signals. 20:23:11 I really wish there was a somewhat decent DSP language/library out there. Haskell has one but I'm not sure if it's really up-to-par with domain-specific languages like csound. 20:23:40 but csound has crappy general-purpose support in terms of state and control structures. Just really solid digital signal processing. 20:28:31 one day I'd like to have a really nice composition environment. Like a shell of some kind connected to a musical score with optional MIDI output. 20:28:42 algoritihmic composition. :) 20:29:24 CakeProphet: Although I used to compose, I've never been too heavily into "computer music", such as it is. 20:30:05 It's just that I never learned piano, so a computer's the only instrument I can compose on :) 20:30:07 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/524281 <-- argh 20:30:23 this will be a PITA when using it on battery for a while 20:31:23 cpressey: I'm not too keen on most of it. I simply use it as educational material. I vastly prefer more popular varieties of electronic music (well, that's not entirely true either. Only the "good" stuff, of course. :P ) 20:31:56 -!- EgoBot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:32:18 and of course, I don't solely like electronic music. 20:32:35 -!- HackEgo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:33:51 Wait, Hack and Ego down? 20:34:45 CakeProphet: I think all music should ship with a parallel MIDI version, so that we can write visualizers that aren't lame. 20:35:09 ha... yeah that'd be pretty sweet. At least for electronic music where MIDI is used and makes sense 20:35:21 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:35:25 doesn't work too well with analog sources. Still doing the same pattern matching you'd be doing in visualizer software. 20:35:27 oerjan! 20:35:32 Well, even for non-electronic, it would at least give it a "click track" it could follow. 20:35:38 there are some really impressive visualizers these days though. Have yo seen Milkdrop? 20:35:47 Phantom_Hoover: ok i give up 20:36:01 Bow before me! 20:36:09 CakeProphet: No, I have to say I've not been following development in that area. 20:36:18 * oerjan kneels and kisses Phantom_Hoover's disembodied toes 20:36:40 I said bow! 20:36:44 cpressey: it's pretty stunning. Very, uh, trippy. It syncs to tempo automatically. Don't even ask me how. 20:37:17 * oerjan shoots Phantom_Hoover with a bow and arrow, which passes straight through and hits CakeProphet 20:37:58 it is dark. you are likely to be eaten by a grue. 20:38:23 * oerjan looks around for jabb 20:38:27 nope, no grue here 20:38:33 jabb? 20:38:49 Is there an IRC client that just lets you pipe to/from stdio? 20:38:55 would make writing an IRC bot far more convenient. 20:38:56 nc 20:39:46 Phantom_Hoover: aka grue@something 20:40:00 * oerjan cannot find him in any recent logs 20:40:50 coppro: well, sort of. nc would work but then I might as well just do it via language. 20:40:56 was looking for some more abstraction. 20:41:55 there's not much else to abstract 20:42:00 IRC protocol is very simple 20:42:21 CakeProphet: There is apparently a piece of spyware out there called "IRC Pipe"... 20:42:38 Not suggesting you build on top of spyware tho. 20:45:04 so what's the puzzle today, oerjan 20:45:07 er, what? 20:45:13 cpressey: psh, what are you talking about. That's fool-proof 20:46:49 oklopol: i found this nice math, computing and complexity blog btw, http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/ 20:47:12 i learned about a result there that is _almost_ like a puzzle 20:47:35 * oerjan notes oklopol is long time idle 20:50:31 basically, what boolean functions can you compute by chaining computations that can only look at one bit of the input each, and only pass a _bounded_ amount of data to the next one, but unlike an FSA you can have several of them looking at the same input bit 20:50:39 http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/barrington-gets-simple/ 20:51:36 Erik Zeeman conjectured that one cannot untie a knot on a four-sphere. I am not a topologist, but it seems like a reasonable conjecture. 20:51:39 ... 20:51:40 topology confuses me to no end. 20:52:47 CakeProphet, that seems obvious. 20:53:07 You can't untie knots in 3-space, and the "surface" of a 4-sphere is 3-space. 20:53:56 well see 20:54:18 I have no clue what a 4-sphere is. Unless it's a 4-dimensional sphere. And then I still have trouble imagining it... but will simply recognize that it could be defined. 20:54:31 CakeProphet, it's a 4D sphere. 20:54:43 The Truth: After trying to prove this for almost ten years, one day he worked on the opposite direction, and solved it in hours. 20:54:45 and surprisingly the answer is "all of them, using only 5 possible passing-on values" (the 5 i deduced myself from the article) 20:55:16 It's impossible to directly visualise, but you can model it mentally pretty easily. 20:55:53 CakeProphet: iirc from the comments that knot conjecture was wrongly quoted, it should be a kind of 2-dimension knot or something 20:56:03 There's also nsound, which is csound-inspired but tries to make the programming parts better. Don't have any personal experiences with it. (There's this one audio-processing-tuned library I distinctly remember, but I've completely forgotten the name, trying to Google for it.) 20:56:09 How can you have a 2D knot? 20:56:35 well some 2D generalization of a knot 20:56:49 How does that work? 20:57:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_synthesis_environments has some sort of list. (But I can't find the one I ran across.) 20:57:25 Since a "2D line" is a point. 20:57:29 fizzie, CakeProphet: something crossed my mind recently re computer music. Either of you know of any musical instrument simulators? i.e. they take the laws of physics, and a description of the instrument, and produce the noise it makes? 20:57:29 fizzie: oh really? Haven't heard of it. I'll look into it. Sounds like what I want (though I could probably just use some IPC, or attempt to learn the Haskell library) 20:57:37 And you can't do many interesting things with a point 20:57:42 Phantom_Hoover: i _think_ that a 4-sphere may actually be a sphere in R^5, so it's shifted by 1. 20:58:03 CakeProphet, fizzie, cpressey, We're mathematicsing now. 20:58:12 ...meh. 20:58:14 oerjan, shifted? 20:58:14 no thanks. 20:58:27 No, I get it now. 20:58:31 Topic fight!!! 20:58:34 cpressey: The acoustics lab at our university has been building some string instrument simulators, but of course it's university research, so there's no real products, just papers. 20:58:44 oerjan, what about a one-sphere? 20:59:05 fizzie: I was wondering if it would be particularly hard to simulate an electric guitar... 20:59:05 AnMaster: that would be a circle, then 20:59:15 oerjan, how do you get a dot then? 0-sphere? 20:59:20 oerjan, on the (4D) surface of a 4-sphere you can always untie a knot. 20:59:35 It's just Maxwell's equations and a vibrating conductor and a stationary magnet, really. 20:59:40 "For any natural number n, an n-sphere of radius r is defined as the set of points in (n + 1)-dimensional Euclidean space which are at distance r from a central point, where the radius r may be any positive real number." 20:59:49 (wikipedia) 21:00:11 oerjan, but that causes a headache for 1-dimensional! 21:00:18 you have to say 0-sphere 21:00:19 AnMaster: a 0-sphere is 2 dots 21:00:40 oerjan, right. what about a (-1)-sphere? 21:00:44 infinity-sphere. BOOM HEADSPLOSION. 21:01:12 CakeProphet, since infinity + 1 = infinity it will actually match in that special case ;P 21:01:22 a (-1)-sphere is the empty set. and iirc there were some theorems in algebraic topology that fit with all of this. 21:01:22 Aleph-null-sphere. 21:01:35 cpressey: For the acoustic guitar, the corresponding our-university project page is http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/research/asp/aguitar/ -- no publications past 2005, so perhaps it's not very active right now. 21:01:47 cpressey, aleph-zero is a more common name iirc 21:02:08 Aleph-nought, too. 21:02:10 fizzie: Reaktor is a very nice environment for DSP. Unfortunately it's $579. 21:02:28 Phantom_Hoover, aleph zero is more common than that too 21:02:28 Although "nought" is apparently an archaism in the US, so. 21:02:43 Phantom_Hoover, it isn't in the UK iirc? 21:02:48 No. 21:02:49 and that is all that matters IMO 21:02:53 I'm sure someone's tried to model the electric sli^H^H^guitar too. 21:03:10 AnMaster, but there are American mathematicians, much as I hate to admit it. 21:03:13 fizzie: Interesting. I was thinking electric would be easier, because there's no air or sounding chamber involved -- the electric waveform gets translated directly to the sound wave. 21:03:29 So "aleph-nought" wouldn't be used often by them. 21:03:43 And we were discussing common prononciations. 21:03:53 Damn, I can never spell that word. 21:03:54 Phantom_Hoover: the only time I hear "nought" is in the phrase "all for nought" 21:03:56 Phantom_Hoover, sure. aleph-zero is neutral and fine IMO 21:04:07 Pronunciations. 21:04:13 IT MAKES NO SENSE. 21:04:19 I know. 21:04:21 Phantom_Hoover, what does? aleph-zero? 21:04:26 No. English. 21:04:28 CakeProphet, I frequently use it when speaking. 21:04:32 ah 21:04:59 cpressey: Oh, and the parent page -- http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/research/asp/ -- has links to kantele synthesis; can't say I'd be very surprised if it turned out no-one else than Finns were doing *that*. 21:05:06 Phantom_Hoover: a 1d (ordinary) knot is an embedding of a circle into R^3. since a circle is a 1-sphere, a 2d knot would probably be an embedding of a 2-sphere (i.e. ordinary sphere) into R^4. 21:05:45 cpressey: well, it does get transferred directly. But you still need to synthesize the resonance frequencies and such. The somewhat naive way to do it is to use a waveshaping function (aka distortion) on an FM synthesized wave. 21:05:49 fizzie, katele? 21:05:49 oerjan, I meant a knot embedded in r^2. 21:06:12 Phantom_Hoover: oh. well that would be 2 points then. not very interesting :D 21:06:18 AnMaster: "The kantele is a traditional Finnish plucked string instrument with five metal strings in its basic form." 21:06:19 cpressey: but you could get more complicated. I don't know much about physical modelling techniques unfortunately. 21:06:23 oerjan, exactly. 21:06:36 fizzie, heh 21:06:43 CakeProphet: I guess you're right - physically modelling a vibrating string is still, uh, non-trivial. 21:06:51 And the thing about untying knots on a 4-sphere is therefore presumably referring to 2-knots. 21:06:51 btw, I quite like the norwegian hardangerfela (spelling?) 21:07:00 * AnMaster looks at oerjan 21:07:13 And: "Research and synthesis of the tanbur, a traditional Turkish long-necked lute, the ud, a short-necked arabic lute, and the Renaissance lute". Our tax money at work there. 21:07:27 fizzie, XD 21:07:29 And any knot that is untyable in flat 4-space is untyable on a 4-sphere. 21:08:30 Phantom_Hoover, what does untying a knot mean? getting a straight piece of string? or getting a single loop? 21:08:44 AnMaster, getting a circle, in topology. 21:08:47 Phantom_Hoover, ah 21:09:00 AnMaster: hardingfele is the usual word in norwegian 21:09:02 Since all line segments can be straightened. 21:09:13 but i see danish wp uses hardanger 21:09:21 oerjan, heh 21:09:34 oerjan, and Swedish one? Don't have browser handy atm 21:09:35 AnMaster: it's from the same geography name, anyhow 21:09:36 SuperCollider looks interesting for sound synthesis. Has a decent programming language too. 21:09:43 dynamic and functional. 21:09:48 oerjan, yeah anyway, quite a nice sound. 21:09:54 fizzie, you should get someone to synth that 21:10:22 AnMaster: ah the swedish actually explains the name development 21:10:26 CakeProphet, just watch out for black holes 21:10:29 oerjan, oh? 21:10:38 "Hardingfelan (av den numera formella namnformen Hardangerfela, efter det norska landskapet Hardanger; i dagligt tal vanligen endast Harding)" 21:10:47 I could suggest the acoustics lab people; that second set of strings sounds interesting. 21:10:49 oerjan, ah 21:11:04 oerjan, shame on you for that not being on the norwegian wiki 21:11:05 oerjan, the knot problem seems pretty trivial. 21:11:16 oerjan, hm does the norwegian wp use bokmål or nynorsk? 21:11:24 fizzie, cool 21:12:12 fizzie, btw those synthed instruments, there is no software to hook it up to a midi program is there? 21:12:45 How about an instrument with a plane vibrating in 4D? 21:12:54 AnMaster: I don't think they've managed to release much code. But you can always reimplement the algorithms. :p 21:13:12 fizzie, true. Don't have access to all those journals though 21:13:51 CakeProphet: Do you (or anyone else here) do any (non-algorithmic) composition? If so, I'd be interested in what software you use. 21:13:52 AnMaster: A lot of their research is available from acoustics.hut.fi; conference papers, anyway. Journal articles might not be. 21:14:08 Or if anyone remembers what software Gregor uses :) 21:14:17 fizzie, hm right 21:14:24 Phantom_Hoover: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knot_theory#Higher_dimensions 21:14:37 cpressey, Gregor perhaps? 21:14:59 Assuming he's not here right now. Happy to be proven wrong of course. 21:15:05 AnMaster: there are two distinct wikipedias for bokmål and nynorsk 21:15:12 cpressey, sec for link 21:15:16 cpressey, http://codu.org/music/ 21:15:16 AnMaster: Since conference papers are usually 4 pages and you need to present results and stuff, not just methods, there's usually a *very* compact (and often incomplete) description of the algorithms involved, though. 21:15:26 cpressey, Gregor's site 21:15:37 oerjan, XD 21:15:49 fizzie, :/ 21:16:01 AnMaster: in fact the nynorsk one has some articles with variants in "høgnorsk", a more archaic form 21:16:09 oerjan, XD 21:16:17 cpressey: not much composition at all, really. But I use Ableton Live for general-purpose recording of electronic music. Though it's not technically for "composition" (no musical score or anything). It's an expensive program (or rather, an expensive copyright. torrents ftw :P) 21:16:45 * CakeProphet has broken several laws in his lifetime. Frequently. 21:16:53 AnMaster: theoretically the bokmål one should have corresponding "riksmål" variants but i cannot recall seeing that 21:17:04 We all have recommendations to get also source code published whenever possible, but due to economical realities (papers == funding) it doesn't happen so often. 21:17:09 we take our language history _seriously_ :D 21:17:10 oerjan, good the English aren't like you. Or we would not only have en-us.wikipedia.org en-gb.wikipedia.org but also en-cockney.wikipedia.org and so on 21:17:22 AnMaster: there is simple english, though 21:17:41 http://www.acoustics.hut.fi/demos/ has guitar synthesis audio clips, however. :p 21:17:42 oerjan, true, but that is for a somewhat different purpose and reason 21:18:00 (And banjo.) 21:18:29 I used to use an old version of Cakewalk. One that writes files that no subsequent version of Cakewalk can read... 21:18:35 fizzie, quite good 21:18:46 "The song was performed live with a MIDI keyboard -- "; so obviously they *have* wired the code into a MIDI pipe, they just don't let anyone else have it. :p 21:18:46 fizzie, but doesn't sound sampled, not high enough quality for that 21:19:09 And... codu.org isn't responding for me. 21:19:13 cpressey, works here 21:19:37 cpressey, okay it just died 21:19:38 the difficult of simulation of acoustic instruments isn't really the spectrum of the waveform or even the mathematical complexity of constructing said waveform. It's the dynamics we hear from the human performer. You can get a lot of expressiveness out of a good hardware controller. Barring that, a sophisticated attack-sustain-decay-release for each overtone does the job. 21:19:43 *difficulty 21:19:44 cpressey, you should have been quicker! 21:20:18 * Phantom_Hoover realises that there are now websites dedicated to giving Facebook users endless mountains of crap to "like". 21:20:26 fizzie, a bit sad that sampled is still better than their stuff 21:20:27 I want to kill someone at the moment. 21:21:08 So.... Rosegarden? 21:21:10 Sampled is reality; it's hard to beat that. 21:21:23 fizzie, true 21:21:28 And FluidSynth for the mp3 rendering? 21:21:29 cpressey, some are recorded live iirc? 21:21:35 fizzie: well... 21:21:37 cpressey, if you mean codu.org 21:21:44 Phantom_Hoover: http://rjlipton.wordpress.com/2010/06/19/guessing-the-truth/#comment-3706 21:21:48 cpressey, and he uses good samples for the fluidsynth cases 21:21:51 I mean "what software does Gregor use" 21:21:52 fizzie: if you sample guitar tones and then play them back with MIDI keyboard... it will not sound like a guitar. 21:22:17 it will sound like guitar tones mapped to keyboard keys. 21:22:39 cpressey, rosegarden yes iirc. And sometimes he uses fluidsynth with good samples, in other cases he records himself playing 21:22:41 oerjan, so it's not as clear cut with 2-knots in 5-space? 21:23:14 CakeProphet: But if you can get a human performer behind the controls of a synthesized instrument... 21:23:19 cpressey: AnMaster and probably JACK, of course. 21:23:38 cpressey: right. 21:23:43 CakeProphet, no idea 21:24:11 Current state-of-the-art (if you just need a single voice and don't mind horrible amounts of work to prepare it) in speech synthesis (AFAIK) is still concatenative synthesis, basically sewing small snippets of recorded speech together (with quite a few tricks in the concatenation and segment-selection, but still). 21:24:15 Jack is basically a plug-in interface. You take programs that support JACK and plug together their inputs/outputs however you like. 21:24:18 CakeProphet: But JACK isn't really a... tool, is it? I thought it was more like ... glue. 21:24:19 quite useful. 21:24:30 cpressey: same difference, really. 21:24:38 CakeProphet, I know what jack is. I used it. It is however a bitch to get working 21:24:40 Hm, ok. 21:24:49 AnMaster: very true. 21:24:59 cpressey, now codu responds 21:25:38 and now it doesn't? 21:26:22 ugh slow as heck 21:26:37 I'm thinking of getting back into composition. I don't have a KB, but my composition paradigm doesn't really make full use of one anyway -- I grew up on things like SidPic and Deluxe Music Construction Set and MED (an Amiga tracker editor). I'm hoping RoseGarden will fit into this paradigm. 21:27:01 It *looks* a lot like DMCS :) 21:27:06 cpressey: buy a wii-mote... or make something similar. get an IR port of some kind. epicness ensues. 21:27:19 I saw a youtube video that used a wii-mote to implement a virtual drum machine. 21:27:24 CakeProphet: *Composition*, not *conducting*. Duh. 21:27:25 ;) 21:27:32 but there are other uses. Continuous pitch ranges and such 21:27:42 cpressey: oh, right. psh. performance is so much more fun though. 21:27:53 Phantom_Hoover: well i don't actually know this stuff myself, just linking :D 21:28:27 Well... I did, until recently, have a physical trombone... virtually replace it with a wii-bone? Hmm... 21:29:17 sounds too erotic. 21:29:22 (lulz) 21:29:41 cpressey, I once got FlightGear running with a Wii remote as the joystick. 21:29:49 I am rather proud of that. 21:30:12 CakeProphet, I never got the jokes about wii and erotic... *shrug* 21:30:25 Phantom_Hoover: Sounds like a fun new way to crash into mountains! 21:30:33 I didn't do much of that. 21:30:48 Mainly because I tested it in KSFO, where there aren't any mountains. 21:30:51 Just hills. 21:31:01 I would use my nice saitek x52 pro for flying 21:31:28 I don't crash into mountains :P 21:31:29 depending on whether or not you want to record electronic style music... have some kind of control surface/device is very very handy. In Ableton Live you can assign MIDI knobs/sliders to various virtual parameters. I'm not sure if you could use this approach with Ableton Live, but you could make a software MIDI wrapper over the IR input and then plug that into JACK or something. 21:31:36 *having 21:31:57 The PS3 sixaxis reports itself as a HID joystick with 28 analog axes, according to what I read during the recent USB discussion. That should be enough for everyone! (If they were usable for anything; it's just that most of the buttons on the thing are pressure-sensitive, and therefore reported both as on/off buttons as well as analog axes.) 21:31:58 and then, bam, MIDI wii controller/instrument. 21:32:18 fizzie, how many buttons? 21:32:20 fizzie: my god. 28 axes? 21:32:35 fizzie, while the saitek x52 pro only has 10 axis, it has 38 buttons 21:32:42 I could awkwardly control so many musical paramters with my thumb... I can't even imagine. 21:32:45 well some are on the same, but the button pressed different ways 21:32:57 AnMaster, stop having better hardware than me. 21:33:02 Phantom_Hoover, what? 21:33:21 Phantom_Hoover, my desktop is crap as I said, sempron 3300+ with geforce 7600 21:33:21 Joysticks, ThinkPads, other cool things... 21:33:29 Pah! 21:33:34 Phantom_Hoover, however it does have a SB Live 5.1 sound card 21:33:37 best sound card ever 21:33:38 I don't *have* a desktop. 21:33:41 Beat that! 21:33:44 AnMaster: 8 pressure-sensitive buttons and a pressure-sensitive d-pad (so 4 more). And then two analog sticks (two more axes of freedom), 2 analog trigger buttons, three digital on/off-only buttons, and 6 axes of motion-sensing (I don't exactly know what those are). 21:33:59 AnMaster: I bet my friend has a more awesome card. M-audio 1010LT (I think) 21:34:01 Also, what do sound cards actually do? 21:34:08 CakeProphet: Actually... I *am* interested in *some* algorithmic aspects -- I would probably go to code before I would go to recording analog inputs to do pitch bends and so forth. But I'm not sure. I've been fooling around with chiptune-like effects in C64 6502 recently. Not in seriousness. 21:34:12 CakeProphet, well, most awesome consumer level card maybe 21:34:21 CakeProphet, m-audio sounds like a pro card 21:34:25 which is way out of my league 21:34:25 I dunno, maybe for phase sweep. 21:34:52 AnMaster: It has like 10 analog inputs, a mic-input with pre-amp, MIDI inputs, and I think 4 digital inputs. It's a mass of wires coming out of the back of his desktop case. 21:34:54 * Phantom_Hoover liked topology more. 21:35:03 *10 analog inputs and outputs 21:35:11 CakeProphet, hardware mixer? hardware midi? 21:35:25 CakeProphet, and hardware midi I mean synth in hardware 21:35:31 that you can load samples into 21:35:43 hardware mixer I bet it has 21:35:55 dunno about either of thus. Dunno why you would want a hardware synth on your soundcard. :P 21:36:01 but yes, I believe it has a mixer. 21:36:03 CakeProphet, well mine has 21:36:10 Phantom_Hoover: Topological music. 21:36:13 at least there's a software interface for a mixer... dunno how it's implemented though. 21:36:16 CakeProphet, I would be surprised if it didn't mix in hardware 21:36:23 my sb live does 21:36:26 cpressey, right, let's do that. 21:36:48 CakeProphet, after all, hardware midi means it offloads the CPU, which is nice when you have a 72 MB soundfont 21:36:49 We don't describe notes in terms of their concrete relationships like pitch and duration, we just... er... 21:37:04 1010LT: http://www.m-audio.com/images/global/product_pics/big/delta1010lt_v2008.jpg 21:37:07 Nice connector-squid there. 21:37:09 AnMaster: but yeah, it's the sickest sound card I've seen so far. When I get my future desktop, and can spare the cash, I'll probably get one. It's basically the best sound card for professional recording I've found. 21:37:10 * cpressey tries to figure out what it would mean for a set of music events to be "connected" 21:37:19 fizzie, heh ouch 21:37:42 cpressey, not staccato? 21:38:00 the word for it slipped my mind atm 21:38:11 generally if they similar attack/decay times we perceive a musical event as atomic. 21:38:14 +have 21:39:21 So silence between notes = holes in a deformable object, maybe. 21:39:28 AnMaster: According to the product description I saw when looking for the photo, "All Delta cards contain a 36-bit embedded DSP enabling a software-driven patchbay/router for all analog and digital I/O—all with extremely fast throughput for low-latency software monitoring." In other words, yes, it has a "hardware mixer" (and more), as long as you count the completely programmable DSP on the sound card as part of hardware. 21:39:37 a chord is one musical event. Though with chords we can pick out the individual notes. There are actually distances in pitch called "critical bands" that we perceive as seperate tones. Anything inside a critical band sounds like a single tone. 21:39:44 fizzie, why 36? 21:39:48 cpressey, sounds like stretching concepts way past the point where it broke 21:39:55 It's not even a multiple of 8. 21:40:03 AnMaster: What channel do you think this is, man? 21:40:09 Phantom_Hoover: Probably a few spare bits to avoid clippingsy problems. 21:40:13 cpressey, touche 21:40:32 Phantom_Hoover: however, the fact that wikipedia section said the results for smooth knots were different from piecewise linear ones makes me suspect the higher-dimensional cases are _very_ subtle 21:41:34 Another propery of critical bands is they become wider in the lower octaves. That is why chords in lower octaves need to be spaced out in order to sound like chords... otherwise the spectra of each note will blend into one pitch and we will perceive it as dissonant . 21:42:15 cpressey, CakeProphet, stop having such similar names. 21:42:21 CakeProphet, you just made me think "three man critical band" ;P 21:42:24 oerjan, higher dimensions are annoying. 21:42:52 I do vaguely recall that there was a lot that *could* be done by reprogramming the EMU10k DSP chip on SB Lives, it just wasn't very documented stuff. 21:43:04 has something to do with actual physical space on the basilar membrane of the ear, and which sections are used to detect given parts of our psychoacoustic spectrum. 21:43:04 fizzie, true 21:43:07 fizzie, never tried it myself 21:43:09 I wonder what the odds are that if you pick some topic completely at random a) someone in this channel will be an expert or b) someone in this channel could get an expert in the channel in 48 hours 21:43:15 fizzie, but pretty sure that is the case yes 21:43:28 coppro, :D 21:43:36 coppro, I know it isn't 1 at least 21:43:44 E-MU does pro-level audio stuff, after all. 21:43:59 coppro, there have been things that no one in here knew about. Forgot what though 21:44:07 AnMaster: nonetheless, it's pretty high compared to random groupings of people 21:44:12 coppro, ask them about real life. 21:44:17 coppro, true 21:44:25 hey, I have one of those 21:44:34 coppro, also I suspect a lot of us are experts at appearing like experts 21:44:39 psh, not me. 21:44:40 Phantom_Hoover: well i don't actually know this stuff myself, just linking :D 21:44:41 that's true 21:44:43 see that for example 21:44:44 "Real life", does it have something to do with the 8088 real mode? 21:44:48 but then again, what is the definition of expert? 21:45:05 coppro, we need a philosophy expert for that 21:45:06 for instance, though I have no formal training, I consider myself an expert when it comes to c++ 21:45:07 *C++ 21:45:11 anyone? please raise your hand! 21:45:17 And then protected life would be 32-bit and a pig to set up. 21:45:26 AnMaster: I took a class....? 21:45:30 CakeProphet, XD 21:45:33 lol 21:45:53 coppro, and I consider myself pretty good at C, though ais523 might beat me there. 21:46:07 I don't mean coding C++, just knowledge 21:46:17 coppro, same, hasn't been coding C much recently 21:46:26 did before 21:46:36 though I guess I'm the resident erlang expert. Since cpressey isn't here all the time 21:46:55 man, I'm so fantastically bad at Erlang 21:47:16 coppro, you know erlang? I didn't know 21:47:21 (I assume that was sarcasm) 21:47:47 -!- fizzie has quit (Quit: jumpin' jumpin'). 21:47:49 -!- fizzie has joined. 21:47:50 I'm not an expert at anything. 21:48:02 cpressey, at the languages you created? 21:48:17 hm wait, Deewiant probably knows more about befunge98 than anyone else here 21:48:17 -!- fungot has joined. 21:48:20 even you 21:48:26 fungot, wb! 21:48:27 AnMaster: stuff like " thisfunction2 thislineofcode")) but have stan actually reference pete. 21:48:31 I consider myself the resident fungot expert, but that's a rather specialized field of knowledge. 21:48:31 fizzie: " eeek"? yeah, do is in r5rs?? i was just trying 21:48:37 fizzie, well yes 21:48:42 fizzie, and I won't challenge that title 21:48:47 Phantom_Hoover: however i've also read in general that there are many ways in which dimensions 3 and 4 are the _hardest_ to analyze, more so than both lower and higher ones. 21:48:51 ...I probably have the most experience programming while under various hallucinogens on this channel.. but I'm not really sure if that is a skill or a psychic power. 21:49:08 oerjan, why? 21:49:14 AnMaster: I know it, but I'm really bad at programming it 21:49:22 coppro, ah 21:49:36 fizzie: A bit esoteric, wouldn't you say? 21:49:42 coppro, not too bad at that myself I think. Though I might overestimate my skills. Hard to tell. 21:49:53 I dare say I would. 21:50:06 coppro, but that is what this channel is about 21:50:31 coppro, heh I realised why ais is holding back feather. So he can be the world's leading expert on it 21:50:31 :D 21:50:38 since no one else knows much about it yet 21:50:45 hah 21:50:47 Feather? 21:51:01 Phantom_Hoover, time traveling language that lets you modify the syntax of the language in the past 21:51:03 basically 21:51:10 Ah 21:51:24 I have some sneaking suspicion that I've inadvertently become the world's leading expert on some esoteric portion of C++ 21:51:29 Phantom_Hoover, it does cause not end of headaches it seems 21:51:36 coppro, heh 21:51:38 if not, definitely second place 21:51:43 Is there a spec anywhere? 21:51:47 Phantom_Hoover, no 21:51:48 no 21:51:52 Phantom_Hoover, the spec isn't finished 21:51:57 Has it ever been described? 21:52:00 anyone? please raise your hand! <-- and if there are any experts here on telekinesis, raise _my_ hand 21:52:02 coppro, who would hold the first place? 21:52:10 Phantom_Hoover, on irc, that is all 21:52:17 Argh. 21:52:21 AnMaster: A David Vandervoorde. 21:52:27 oerjan: Groan expert. 21:52:29 coppro, never heard of him 21:52:29 ...I am an expert of the Pokemon gameboy games. But nothing else, not the television series or anything related to it. 21:52:41 the only other person I know to have implemented the attributes specification from C++0x 21:52:56 and, unlike me, actually a member of the standard committee 21:52:56 Phantom_Hoover, and well, ais said he needed to implement it while working on the spec. Since he wasn't sure what would work 21:53:08 Phantom_Hoover, and that hasn't happened yet 21:53:13 Phantom_Hoover: something like higher dimensions having more wiggle room for stuff 21:53:29 oerjan: sounds technical. :D 21:54:05 oerjan, of course. There is an extra dimension to wiggle in 21:54:11 of course there is more wiggle room thus 21:54:23 Not necessarily. 21:54:33 The other dimension might be tiny. 21:54:47 Phantom_Hoover, mathematically they could be anything you want 21:54:54 Phantom_Hoover, plus: tiny > nothing 21:54:59 But they might not be. 21:55:05 Phantom_Hoover, see ^ 21:55:06 consider dimensions that ate only one-element sets. WHAT THEN? 21:55:15 Phantom_Hoover: intuitively, 3 and 4 are big enough to let you make complicated stuff but not big enough to let you straighten it out. or something. 21:55:15 *are. 21:55:15 And tiny is still < biggish 21:55:16 ... 21:55:23 Phantom_Hoover, true but better than nothing 21:55:25 (very vague intuition, there :D) 21:55:59 I'm trying to imagine where the fourth axis would be in a world of 4D space. :D 21:56:07 I am probably not high enough. 21:56:25 I wonder what a 4D game would be like. 21:56:40 AnMaster, been done. 21:56:47 Phantom_Hoover, yeah but a space game iirc? 21:56:54 Phantom_Hoover, I meant, something like a RPG 21:56:57 CakeProphet, it goes at right angles to everything else. 21:57:25 AnMaster, how would a 4th dimension affect the RPG mechanic? 21:57:30 Phantom_Hoover: I need more space than the infinite space I imagine things in... 21:57:33 CakeProphet: "where" is a limiting concept, obviously 21:57:35 needs moar anglez 21:57:41 Phantom_Hoover, think what theifs could do! 21:57:49 Phantom_Hoover, get into to a box without picking the lock 21:58:02 * cpressey leans back, loses balance, and falls through the wall 21:58:14 cpressey, and perhaps that 21:58:14 Phantom_Hoover: topologically, the _size_ of a dimension doesn't matter. although whether it curves back on itself might. 21:58:15 * Phantom_Hoover wonders if you can biject R^2 onto R. 21:58:28 oerjan, I was referring to curves. 21:58:37 hmmm. 21:58:39 Phantom_Hoover, well, can you biject C onto R? that should result in the same thing, shouldn't it? 21:58:46 cpressey, you have to go at right angles to reality to fall though things. 21:58:49 AnMaster, yes. 21:58:58 Phantom_Hoover, and iirc they are bijectable, forgot how though 21:59:05 biject R^2 onto R? I don't *think* so... 21:59:13 hm maybe I misremember 21:59:19 Diagonalize? 21:59:28 Uncountability almost certainly factors into it. 21:59:29 perhaps P!=NP, and instead P=R^3 ....so really when I write to a hash table I'm really teleporting through space. 21:59:29 cpressey, both are uncountably infinite, could be tricky to diagonalize? 21:59:31 Phantom_Hoover: you can biject R^2 onto R as long as you don't require continuity 21:59:41 oerjan, how? 21:59:59 CakeProphet, bad joke 22:00:05 oerjan, continuity? 22:00:17 CakeProphet, even below OGS (Oerjan Groan Standard) 22:00:22 s/ / / 22:00:33 AnMaster: rubik's hypercube might be an interesting game. hm, i should google if it exists already 22:00:44 AnMaster: More of a thought experiment to imagine what that would imply. 22:00:48 oerjan, I never got the hang of the 3D version so... 22:01:01 yep, definitely exists 22:01:02 AnMaster: but I guess thought experiments are pretty bad jokes. BAM. 22:01:13 Oh, so biject(1, 1) and biject(1.1, 1.1) would give completely different results? 22:01:17 CakeProphet, well, I thought it was a bad joke 22:01:32 you are correct. 22:01:40 CakeProphet, since I couldn't make sense of it as anything esle 22:01:54 oerjan: yes, it exists, and it hurts my brain 22:02:05 http://people.math.gatech.edu/~berglund/Rubik/index.html 22:03:07 I hate 4D projections onto 3-space. 22:03:20 indeed 22:03:51 actually 6D is easier for me to imagine than 4D... because I can just picture two 3D spaces. 22:03:55 that co-exist. 22:04:04 CakeProphet, I can't imagine that either 22:04:14 Phantom_Hoover: the bijection cannot be a continuous function, this is part of what is known as Brouwer's theorem of Invariance of domain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariance_of_domain 22:04:56 OK. 22:05:15 In any case, this implies that 4-space can be embedded in 3-space. 22:05:28 Embedded 22:05:34 <=>bijected, whaever. 22:05:41 s/whaever/whatever/ 22:06:03 so why is space 3D? 22:06:10 PHILOSOPHY TIEM. 22:06:27 because more would be silly? 22:06:31 It's the smallest possible space for us to have the perception of it that we do. 22:06:41 CakeProphet, Stephen Hawking said something about that. 22:06:54 cpressey, the same could be said for 4D if we lived in 4D 22:06:56 Something to do with orbits being unstable in >3D. 22:07:10 Phantom_Hoover, so string theory is false? 22:07:14 AnMaster: For all we know, we do live in 4D. We just can't see it. 22:07:35 AnMaster, it's to do with the inverse square law. 22:07:39 String theory is not just false, it's a load of hooey. 22:07:42 the fourth dimension is an awesome-to-fail gradient. 22:07:48 Phantom_Hoover, which isn't an accurate desc 22:08:01 Phantom_Hoover: bijecting R^2 with R is easy, if you ignore the 0.99999... = 1.0000... issue (and that's easy to fix up afterwards). just interleave the bits of the two numbers. oh and sign, but that's also easy to fix. 22:08:07 cpressey, "hooey"? 22:08:18 If there are 4 conventional space dimensions, it becomes an inverse cube law, and orbital deviations are magnified hugely. 22:08:30 cpressey: I think string theory is just overzealous in its categorization of physical phenomenon as dimensions 22:08:38 And the ISL is still accurate in most situations. 22:08:50 unfortunately, to get anywhere in physics these days you have to pretty much submit to string theory or you will not be taken seriously. 22:08:50 Phantom_Hoover: more _generally_, it's a theorem of set theory that the axiom of choice is equivalent to every infinite set M having a bijection with M^2 22:11:16 Is there a name for this magical (^) :: Set -> Integer -> Space operation? 22:11:42 Oh so THAT is what the Axiom of Choice is. 22:11:49 M^2 just means a pair of Ms. 22:12:20 ah so... Set -> Integer -> DependentTypeHereLolHaskell 22:13:37 CakeProphet: if you identify an integer with a set having that many elements (as e.g. von Neumann numerals do), then A^B is just the set of functions from B to A 22:14:46 I think I understand, but as a consequence my brain kind of malfunctioned. 22:15:29 So R^2 is the set of functions from 2 to R? 22:15:43 CakeProphet: this is also compatible with the cardinalities of the sets. e.g. the set of functions from B to A has |A|^|B| elements, where |A| and |B| are the cardinalities of A and B 22:15:45 Ah, I get it now. 22:16:02 from a set with two elements to R I guess. 22:16:02 so it's an intuitive notation 22:16:22 Wait, doesn't 2 have to be a set of 2 elements each of which are in R? 22:17:02 Phantom_Hoover: no, it doesn't matter which set you use to represent 2 for this, as long as it has 2 elements 22:17:41 So what does the function do with the elements? 22:17:45 von Neumann numerals use {0,1}, defined recursively 22:18:09 Phantom_Hoover: it maps 0 to the first tuple element, and 1 to the second. 22:18:22 Ahh. 22:18:25 some might like to use {1,2} instead for this :D 22:18:46 more generally, an n-tuple in math is just a function from {1,...,n} to some set 22:18:59 Yep, I get it now. 22:20:04 hey, need to provide validity to your theory? Define it in terms of other theories! 22:20:23 I firmly believe AC to be independent of AC. 22:20:56 oerjan, so that means there are just two types of infinite? 22:21:04 oerjan, countable and uncountable? 22:21:06 wait a sec 22:21:09 every infinite? 22:21:31 if that is true countable == uncountable which is not true afaik? 22:22:08 AnMaster: um no, there is an unending (in fact itself uncountable) collection. 2^M has larger size than M, always (Cantor diagonalization) 22:22:26 however M^2 has the same size as M if M is infinite 22:23:17 interestingly, there are infinitely many cardinalities a such that a^(aleph_0) = a and infinitely many such that this is false 22:23:42 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what a 3-cube bijected into 3-space would look like. 22:23:49 (any cardinality of the form 2^a for infinite a satisfies the equation, but limits need not 22:23:52 ) 22:24:25 s/infinitely/uncountable/, really 22:24:35 *ly 22:25:38 Sounds strangely like relativizing proofs on oracle machines. 22:26:00 cpressey: well it's all diagonalization 22:26:12 "infinitely many [oracles] such that [P=NP] and infinitely many such that this is false" 22:26:19 oh that 22:26:34 heh 22:27:08 Well, I don't *know* that there are inf. many -- the original result was "there exists at least one" -- but it seems quite reasonable 22:27:19 yeah 22:27:36 * Sgeo is in a dark cave with dripping water and weird violet crystals everywhere 22:27:44 well you can probably construct infinitely many oracles with the same power as a given one, at least 22:27:51 yeah 22:29:12 -!- calamari has joined. 22:29:16 hi 22:29:30 calamari: Hey! 22:29:34 oerjan, " Phantom_Hoover: more _generally_, it's a theorem of set theory that the axiom of choice is equivalent to every infinite set M having a bijection with M^2" still confuse me then 22:29:37 Phantom_Hoover: 3-cube into 3-space? well if it's a cube without the borders, just use a suitable scaled tan function on each coordinate 22:29:42 oerjan, every doesn't mean every? 22:29:48 according to wikipedia: PostScript is a Turing-complete programming language, belonging to the concatenative group. PostScript is an interpreted, stack-based language similar to Forth but with strong dynamic typing, data structures inspired by those found in Lisp, scoped memory and, since language level 2, garbage collection 22:30:05 oerjan, or that you have bijections between different cardinalities? 22:30:08 this is just asking for a brainfuck port.. 22:30:15 or has one already been done? 22:30:16 AnMaster: it has to be the same M in M and M^2 22:30:19 oerjan, I thought bijection defined cardinality? 22:30:24 oerjan, ah! 22:30:34 hey Chris, how are you? 22:31:28 calamari: You know, I'm not sure anymore... I'm ok I guess. :) How're things with you? 22:31:36 calamari: now make it output a graphic representation of the bf run :D 22:32:00 oerjan, exactly! 22:32:34 * oerjan did a mandelbrot in postscript once. only black and white though, so not so impressive. 22:33:02 i have a vague idea that it _might_ have taken a while to get through the printer :D 22:36:07 cpressey, I'm doing alright.. did something happen? 22:38:41 calamari: It's a long story. I've been bouncing around the USA the past two years, for bad reasons. Ended up near Chicago... will hopefully stay here for a while. But we'll see. 22:39:39 still a Canadian? 22:40:05 question. Is tuple pronounced "too-ple"? 22:40:08 Yep, just a US permanent resident, because I married an American :) 22:40:22 or just "tup-le" 22:40:22 oh, still married? 22:40:31 I've always heard the former 22:40:49 CakeProphet: i've been assuming it's pronounced like the last part of "quintuple". 22:40:50 hm, I wonder what an image that has a small depth of focus but has more than one such would look like 22:41:02 CakeProphet: I've heard both. 22:41:26 I suppose it's because the words that end in -tuple pronounce it both ways. right? 22:41:35 they do? 22:41:39 well... quadruple. 22:41:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:41:41 AnMaster, like a pinhole camera? 22:41:43 but that's not quite -tuple 22:41:50 calamari, hm? 22:41:55 or are you saying the opposite of that? 22:42:10 calamari, like focused at one meter, then unfocused a bit, then focused again at about 10 meters 22:42:12 or such 22:42:16 well with a small enough pinhole, everything is in focus 22:42:25 calamari, so completely different 22:43:27 calamari, see what I mean? 22:43:38 yeah, I think so 22:43:57 calamari, or a sine function 22:44:14 calamari, so 1 = completely in focus -1 = very out of focus 22:44:25 with a period of half a meter between crossing the zero 22:44:26 1-tuple, 2-tuple, 3-tuple, 4 22:44:28 you might be able to (ab)use a raytracer into doing it 22:44:36 calamari, I have no idea how 22:45:22 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 22:45:31 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Client Quit). 22:45:44 so close and yet so far 22:45:45 hi alise... and bye 22:45:48 pov-ray is open source 22:45:53 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 22:46:11 cpressey: Hello! 22:46:35 Hello ehirdiphone! 22:47:36 Chris: but yeah anyhow.. I am a divorced dad of 2.. hopefully you didn't end up in such a situation 22:47:56 calamari: I'm sorry to hear that... 22:48:00 It feels so good to write out what the code should do before writing the code 22:48:44 Whoa. What prompted a divorce discussion? 22:48:59 hmmm... I bet you could extend Parsec to match/fail on any sort of pattern regardless of type. 22:49:14 and also fuzzily. To implement pattern matching. 22:49:17 of data. 22:49:18 CakeProphet: Parsec 3 22:49:32 ehirdiphone, "How are you?" 22:49:37 ehirdiphone, hehe.. mostly me not minding my own business :) 22:52:05 * ehirdiphone attempts to read log on phone 22:52:13 calamari, true 22:52:28 calamari, wrt raytracer I mean 22:52:56 calamari, still I wouldn't know how to make such an optics model 22:53:24 ehirdiphone: Me volunteering the fact that I've been galavanting around the US because I married an American. 22:54:32 Well, when enough crap starts happening to you, you start learning to count your blessings I guess :) 22:54:55 AnMaster, I guess I'm thinking along the lines of modifying the source to mess with the smooth focus falloff and reset it at some point.. a dirty hack 22:55:20 calamari, ah 22:55:28 so when distance gets to 10 meters.. treat it like distance x-10 again 22:55:39 ouch. fmod() basically? 22:55:51 calamari, well I guess one would have to find it in the source first 22:55:54 which may not be that easy 22:56:31 I have a good shot at first or second shitlife ranking here methinks. 22:56:40 yeah fmod.. wow, never heard of fmod until now.. cool stuff :) 22:56:51 Does it get much worse than being wrongly institutionalised? 22:57:00 I mean. For most people 22:57:02 :P 22:57:12 ehirdiphone: Yes. Yes, I for one would not deny you that trophy. 22:57:12 Starving is probably notably worse. 22:57:44 Is it made out of a turd? Polished? 22:58:29 for me, I think it was the sudden drop in standard of living that was jarring, but that's been a long time now so it's just life again hehe 22:58:31 Wow, calamari invented modular arithmetic. Astonishing :P 22:58:48 huh? 22:59:23 fmod is just the remainder operation generalised to reals 22:59:32 maybe discovered :) definitely not invented 22:59:48 I'm being a sarcastic bastard. 22:59:50 everyone can discover things 22:59:56 evne the same things :) 22:59:57 Apologies :P 23:00:02 none needed 23:00:28 I love being an argumentative ass.. just ask Gregor 23:00:43 Actually fmod doesn't make a whole lot of sense really since modulo is remainder of *integer* division 23:01:16 But it's a useful implementation over the reals of a common use-case of modular arithmetic. 23:01:34 *division. 23:02:42 cpressey: So if we get gay married I could escape? Hey, it's a viable plan! 23:02:58 ATTN anyone in America: I am free for marriage 23:03:11 why on earth does C/C++ not have tuples. 23:03:18 ehirdiphone: Er, no can do -- there are laws against bigamy here. 23:03:19 ehirdiphone: have fun consummating 23:03:30 cpressey: DAMMIT. 23:03:50 Fucking conservatism! 23:04:12 coppro: Canada too 23:04:26 I guess in C++ you coud define tuple generics. 23:04:32 ehirdiphone: someone's challenging those laws' constitutionality I think 23:04:37 CakeProphet: C++0x is getting them 23:04:43 CakeProphet: c is a glorified pdp11 assembler 23:04:52 ATTN any non-married person, then? 23:05:26 CakeProphet: c++ is a functional language compiling down to a glorified object-oriented pdp11 assembler 23:05:54 coppro: What bigamy laws? Or gay laws? 23:06:06 ehirdiphone: bigamy. Gay marriage has been legal here for several years 23:06:11 ehirdiphone, but god hates fags 23:06:15 *What, 23:06:38 coppro: the authors of the Canadian constitution were gay polyamorists 23:07:04 Sgeo, sorry, arizona hates gays too 23:07:09 My logic is irrefutable 23:07:11 QED 23:07:18 * calamari currently lives in the most hated state, lol 23:07:32 there was never time for an actual SCC ruling on the legality of law banning gay marriage, IIRC; the government made it legal before that could happen. The closest it came when was Alberta (surprise, surprise) tried to legislate it and it was found to be outside provincial jurisdiction. 23:07:39 * CakeProphet is in Georgia. Doesn't get much more bigoted. 23:07:41 Can you even get green card gay married? 23:08:02 CakeProphet, but nobody talks about that.. Arizona is in the spotlight 23:08:11 well, right. 23:08:18 I don't even get why everyone cares about Arizona 23:08:30 CakeProphet: Georgia birthed Neutral Milk Hotel which makes up for it sucking. 23:08:31 all they did is basically tell police officers to enforce the law 23:08:44 I don't get why everyone cares about the US. 23:08:56 well from a racism perspective, I guess I don't really care.. however requiring me to carry my papers.. I care about that 23:09:06 ehirdiphone: ha. And a lot of other good musicians. I didn't know NMH was from Georgia though. 23:09:06 CakeProphet: I have a friend in Georgia; say hi. 23:09:13 ehirdiphone: I'm on it. 23:09:22 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:09:31 NMH are from Georgia, yeah. 23:09:42 Well. Were. 23:10:01 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:10:10 hmmm, is singular-for-band-names a US thing? 23:10:21 NMH is/was 23:10:33 Singular groups is an Americanism. 23:10:41 ah... okay. 23:10:57 it's not significantly different from referring to a corporation by a singular name 23:11:08 so do you say "the class are dismissed." ??? 23:11:09 Pink Floyd were a band. Microsoft were ruled against in an antitrust case. 23:11:23 coppro: so basically it's the reason why US corporations are persons? 23:11:30 oerjan: obviously 23:11:40 We'd say "class dismissed" prolly :P 23:11:46 ha. 23:11:52 But yes. L 23:11:58 *no L 23:12:10 interesting. 23:12:16 When we hear "the class" we hear every member of that class. 23:12:18 ehirdiphone: isn't it a little early for christmas 23:12:30 But it sounds awkward for a teacher to say that. 23:12:40 I dunno why. 23:12:46 No l, no l 23:12:50 No l, no l 23:12:54 Something something 23:12:56 No l 23:13:03 well, I presume because there is only one class. 23:13:27 the class is dismissed ... imo :) 23:13:30 And an esolang is born. 23:13:31 the classes are dismissed. The class is dismissed. That's how it works here at least. 23:13:39 Class is a singleton! 23:13:43 CakeProphet: but does it own the means of production? 23:13:51 oerjan: rofl. of course not. 23:13:55 capitalism all the way. 23:13:59 Thus Class is the only class! 23:14:00 darn 23:14:43 Corporations as their members is a very socialist quirk :P 23:14:47 ehirdiphone: I hope class just so happens to be an implementation of a hash table... 23:14:54 because then we can implement a subset of lua. 23:15:23 Well we need the Class class because every class must be an instance of it. 23:15:32 Tada, we have our one class. 23:15:47 I HEREBY FLAW YOUR LOGIC 23:16:00 coppro: NOOOOOOO 23:16:09 MY ONLY WEAKNESS! 23:16:39 Why would you even go through the trouble of defining a better C++ 23:16:40 So. 23:16:59 Ask olsner. 23:17:12 CakeProphet: Yes. Class must be a subclass of HashTable. 23:17:39 because if there are tuples... then they should immediately change every stdlib function that takes pointer arguments to set multiple return values. 23:18:08 C library compatibility says no 23:18:44 just overload everything. :D 23:18:47 ALWAYS THE ANSWER 23:18:58 omg, I was mentioned 23:19:18 olsner has been summoned 23:19:49 I will take some mana for this, you know... massive amounts of mana 23:20:05 also... why on earth would you call it C++0X 23:20:06 * coppro steals the mana and casts Gleemax 23:20:10 that is just too many symbols 23:20:19 coppro: People are upset about Arizona because the law in question makes the police call out people who "look illegal" and demand proof that they are legal. Said proof being a birth certificate or naturalisation certificate. 23:20:21 CakeProphet: C++YY 23:20:24 CakeProphet: It's a working name evolved from the fact that it was expected in the year '0X, where X is unknown 23:20:29 pikhq: It 23:20:36 dude check out my language it's called $##E2 23:20:39 CakeProphet: Obviously, it is an esolang in disguise. 23:21:00 And these certificates are neither commonly carried around nor something that police should (IMO) have the authority to demand. 23:21:04 CakeProphet: It's official C++ not some other project. 23:21:13 c++1x, in which C++ standardises brainfuck as an alternate macro language 23:21:26 *It's required that foreigners carry ID already. IIRC, it adds no requirement for citizens 23:21:27 coppro: It 23:22:16 Sean "copp- 'Arizona' -ro" Hunt 23:22:19 coppro: Yes, foreigners are required to carry a passport or a green card. However, the law makes demands of *proof of citizenship*, not just proof of legal non-citizenship. 23:22:28 Nested nicknames! 23:22:35 oh, I didn't know about that 23:22:48 I don't recall seeing that when I scanned the bill 23:22:55 And it also demands that they do this check on anyone who *looks illegal*. 23:23:14 coppro just reads USA bills for fun. 23:23:15 anyway, about defining a better C++ the thing I think I've realized that you pretty much can't make a better C++ but you can probably replace it with something else 23:23:18 isn't that what cops do anyways? not that it's justified... 23:23:19 Uh, yeah... Most people here are either immigrants or decendents of immigrants. Each and every person could be illegal. 23:23:19 I believe the term is "reasonable suspicion: 23:23:30 ehirdiphone: I looked this one up specifically 23:23:53 coppro is defending the crazy right wing burkina 23:23:54 Also: this is a state with fucking Sherrif Arpaio in power. 23:23:57 Nutjobs 23:24:00 Not burkina 23:24:04 WTF iPhone 23:24:06 Proof of citizenship? So permanent residents don't count? Jeez/ 23:24:11 Anyway, I love it 23:24:12 * cpressey feels hurt. 23:24:27 cpressey: Citizenship or legal residence. 23:24:33 ehirdiphone: it's just going through a faso 23:24:43 pikhq, so glad I don't with in maricopa county... inmnocent into proven guilty throw right out the window with those prison camps 23:24:57 with->live 23:24:57 oerjan: What's the serf? 23:25:12 Inmocent. 23:25:16 wow, tons of typos in that.. just parse it :) 23:25:20 But, yeah. Arpaio would inevitably enforce that shit as "if e's not white or black, pull im the hell over." 23:25:23 argh 23:25:32 inmocent is a word? 23:25:33 (black so that he can claim not to be racist) 23:25:41 oerjan: No, but innocent is. 23:25:48 pikhq: Yeah... Arpaio would totally use Spivak pronouns. 23:25:58 ehirdiphone: Totally. :P 23:26:00 oerjan, that's what happens when I am reading a webpage and typing at the same time lol 23:26:05 Also, *em 23:26:11 Not i'm. 23:26:14 pikhq: also, you know the other part, right? That the police officer already has to be talking to the person for some violation? 23:26:16 I'm. 23:26:19 Im. 23:26:31 coppro: Yes. 23:26:41 k, just chekcing 23:27:08 where C++ wins today there isn't really that much to compete with it I think... C is often too stupid/simplistic and everything else popular is too dynamic or slow or generally far-from-the-metal (like ... java and everything) or scary (like haskell)... Ada isn't bad at all really but everyone mistrusts it and it's a tad verbose and bondage&discipline 23:27:23 Though this in practice means a more asshole-type police officer will make up a reason to pull the person over. 23:27:27 coppro, and you know that if a police officer follows you long enough in a car you WILL violate some traffic law sooner or later. 23:27:29 Just going to toss in a crazy radical idea to turn this into a flamewar: Completely free immigration to and from any country. 23:27:43 Sadly, I need to be off, before I crack up. Bye all, have a pleasant evening. 23:27:50 cya Chris 23:27:52 ehirdiphone: My only question is whether or not it would be sane to implement this immediately. 23:27:52 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Arpaio would totally use Spivak pronouns.). 23:27:56 calamari: sure. But the new law doesn't change that aspect of things significantly 23:28:14 Perhaps have it completely free immigration to and from the developed world and slowly add developing nations. 23:28:32 I made someone's quit message! Yay! 23:28:44 pikhq: Yeah, it's not practical right know. 23:28:48 (so as to avoid a massive flood into developed nations) 23:28:52 if the police officer thinks someone is an illegal immigrant, they can still tail you all day, get you for a violation, and ask you for documentation that you're allowed in the country 23:29:10 But it'd make countries *compete*, thus yielding better countries, 23:29:22 thus yielding better spread of population. 23:29:24 But, other than doubts about implementation particulars, I am entirely in favor of such a thing. 23:29:33 Immigration problem: solved. 23:29:50 *right now, not know 23:29:59 * olsner unsummons (boring!) 23:30:34 olsner olsner olsner Candlejac 23:30:34 There is absolutely no sense in there not being free immigration between, say, Europe, USA, Canada, and Japan. None at all. 23:30:57 yep 23:31:06 I can't even think of a *reason* for it beyond "DEM FOREIGNERS ARE EVIL TAKING AR JORBS". 23:31:11 pikhq: BUT DOOD PPL ONLY WANT TO GO TO USA AND UK LOL 23:31:41 ehirdiphone: you're not supposed to disappear until after you've _finished_ writing Candlejack, you stu 23:31:42 s/USA AND UK/USA/ 23:31:44 duh 23:31:46 :) 23:32:08 Oh, also. "TERRORISTS". 23:32:14 oerjan: olsner stopped me finishing Candlejack's name, you fo 23:32:24 omg they took my job I can't work at mcdonalds anymore :( 23:32:24 ehirdiphone: ok then 23:32:28 j.k. 23:32:46 Because, of course, Canada is a magical land made entirely of people who want to commit terrorism against the US. 23:33:00 pikhq: Also unicorns. 23:33:04 But can't be assed to walk across the mostly unpatrolled border to do so. 23:33:18 They are le tired. 23:33:27 terrorist unicorns! 23:33:39 *recites the rest of the end of the world* 23:33:43 Why we have the border mostly unpatrolled *but* massive security checks on legal crossings is beyond me. 23:33:51 Alaska can come too. THE END! 23:35:05 Canada is awesome because it has European laws plus English (ok so I am biased) plus an awesome range of climates. 23:35:10 Plus maple syrup. 23:35:21 God dammit I love maple syrup. 23:35:58 And its culture is like America, without all of the stupid. :P 23:36:18 Hrm. Actually, that makes it radically different; stupid is one of the defining attributes of American culture. 23:36:42 pikhq: wrt terrorism: with the English skills of the average terrorist fearmonger, we will soon all be incredibly worried about planes being hijacked by museli 23:37:00 OH GOD WITH THE ALMONDS AND THE OATS IN THE COCKPIT 23:37:01 -!- micahjohnston has joined. 23:37:05 Hah. 23:37:29 would be nifty if Haskell had recursive types 23:37:34 Nous avons aussi Français. 23:37:37 ...by recursive types I mean 23:37:48 s/F/f/ 23:37:56 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info). 23:38:17 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 23:38:20 coppro: I don't believe in Quebec 23:38:21 type Computation a b = (a ->(a, Computation)) 23:38:42 It's like Canada plus LAME FRENCHNESS and EXCESS COLD. 23:38:45 pourquoi? 23:38:49 ah 23:38:51 Le français n'est pas seulment de Quebec... 23:38:52 CakeProphet: Eh wot? 23:38:53 CakeProphet: the argument i hear for not allowing them is that it would make a _lot_ of errors accidentally well-typed 23:39:11 CakeProphet: You missed some type arguments... 23:39:22 oerjan: it removes type safety 23:39:34 type LC = LC -> LC 23:39:39 type Computation a b = (a ->(b, Computation)) 23:39:40 micahjohnston: oui! 23:40:04 ehirdiphone: well not memory safety 23:40:13 si si si señor 23:40:23 oerjan: eh? 23:40:33 CakeProphet: fail 23:40:50 ehirdiphone: it cannot cause it to call a function with something it cannot handle, only make an unexpected infinite loop 23:41:02 C'est à Ottawa et un peu de Nouveau-Brunswick. 23:41:47 Ayeight mayb I starten tak'n i'scrut'bl 'nvented Enggish dylect. 23:41:58 Ah je ne savais pas que vous parlais de Canada 23:42:15 oerjan: ah 23:42:39 STOPP'T WI'TH'FRENCH! 23:42:43 Non! 23:42:45 pourquoi? 23:43:01 ehirdiphone: Ai shinkku Ai amu goingu tsu taruku in an oddo daiarekuto maiserufu. 23:43:25 Yorl dinaeknow French aneighwy. 23:43:32 ehirdiphone: there's nothing you can do with recursive types that you cannot already simulate with newtypes, afaik 23:43:33 pikhq: wakarimasen. 23:44:01 Yorl gon stopp't immydjtli! 23:44:01 pikhq: nice bastardization 23:44:09 ehirdiphone's is just bad 23:44:09 (and they compile to identical machine code, presumably) 23:44:12 micahjohnston: Korya "I think I am going to talk in an odd dialect myself.", nihongoppoi hatsuon de. 23:44:30 coppro: POO HENCEFORTH TOWARDS YOU. 23:44:50 (Watashi ha ima, IME ga nai no de, roomaji wo tsukaeru. Gomen ne.) 23:44:56 pikhq: wakarimashita demo nihongo sukoshi wakarimasu 23:45:08 I don't even know if what I just said is right at all 23:45:09 :P 23:45:11 Desu nihongo desu? 23:45:21 desu! 23:45:27 micahjohnston: Quite correct, though oddly formal. 23:45:28 sō desu 23:45:41 ^_^ 23:45:44 Desu desu desu, desu desu. 23:45:51 eh? 23:45:55 what language is that? 23:46:04 nihongo desu 23:46:09 Desu Tokyo Nihongo desu Nihongo dedu desu. 23:46:15 *desu 23:46:22 pikhq: e syns japansk e å gå før langt 23:46:38 oerjan, aha, så det är japanska? 23:46:39 *japanskdesu 23:46:51 *japanskadesu 23:46:59 ehirdiphone: This is about on par with "Is London English is English id is." :P 23:47:12 Desu desu; Osaka desu Nihongo. 23:47:24 pikhq: XD 23:47:30 AnMaster: well some of it at least 23:47:35 "Is is; Edinburgh is English." 23:47:50 should'nt it be Osaka wa Nihongo desu though? 23:48:03 pikhq: you know japanese? ehird's line read like "I understood but I understand a little japanese" to me... which seems to be missing some kind of contrast to motivate the 'but' 23:48:05 micahjohnston: He's citing a bizarre meme, not actual Japanese. 23:48:05 Does Japanese even HAVE semicolons? 23:48:12 pikhq: oh 23:48:17 olsner: I do, in fact, know Japanese. 23:48:28 Wo desu Nihongo gaijin desu wo wo desUsaka 23:48:32 ehirdiphone: Yeah, but it's *very* uncommon. 23:48:38 olsner: I didn't know how to say "only" :P 23:48:44 ehirdiphone, on the other hand, does not speak a lick of Japanese 23:48:49 watashi wa gaijin desu 23:49:02 pikhq: Good luck analogising THAT 23:49:07 olsner, så länge de pratar japanska föreslår jag att vi pratar "skandinaviska" 23:49:13 err 23:49:16 oerjan, ^ 23:49:25 japansk e då ikkje skickelig vansklig, bare *litt* vansklig 23:49:27 ja, olsner med, med dumma tab 23:49:29 micahjohnston: "Watashi ha wakuru, kedo chotto dake nihongo wo wakaru." 23:49:33 There. 23:49:42 olsner, det där var norska? 23:49:50 AnMaster: nån sorts försök till det 23:49:53 olsner, ah 23:50:04 hey 23:50:12 ehirdiphone: "The is English foreign is the the is?eh." 23:50:21 * coppro is getting annoyed that Google translation can't do Romanji (this is not an invitation to move to Kanji, thanks) 23:50:21 CakeProphet: gobbledygook time! join in! 23:50:26 :D 23:50:29 isn't this is an only-speak-American IRC server? 23:50:33 pikhq: What have I done 23:50:38 coppro: I don't have an IME, so I am not using my uber kanji-knowledge. 23:50:57 AnMaster: norsk e jo så lætt, e har snakkæ dæ si e va lit'n glønjtonge 23:50:58 (I can write all the jouyou kanji. I know all the readings for about half of them.) 23:50:59 CakeProphet, not american. UK English 23:51:08 CakeProphet: No. 23:51:17 oerjan, vad är "snakkæ" och "glønjtonge"? 23:51:36 pikhq: I don't :D 23:51:37 AnMaster: "spoken" and "boy child" 23:51:43 coppro: You should fix that. 23:51:45 Fvvjcogctpdtpsyuvug h hpctptxtc bgpdyxtu uuuuuuäfghtįåæ. 23:51:52 If nothing else, it lets you write kanji in English. :P 23:51:55 oerjan, huh, doesn't make more sense even with that 23:51:59 All the vowels go at the end. 23:52:03 pikhq: Possibly. I want to brush up on French first before I attack another language 23:52:13 i cedilla FTW 23:52:14 AnMaster: it's dialect of course :D 23:52:21 (my notes are now incredibly hard to read unless you're bilingual. And can read an invented script of mine.) 23:52:21 glønjtonge! nice one 23:52:25 oerjan, det var elakt 23:52:45 snakkae == snacka, såklart 23:52:48 oerjan, the Swedish dialects I can do passably aren't even half as evil 23:52:48 Doubleplusgood. 23:53:00 pikhq: Though I do have some questions on pronunciation of Japanese, if we can move to /msg 23:53:08 coppro: Sure. 23:53:13 I am not about to start speaking in Geordie. 23:53:20 I am not sufficiently evil. 23:53:22 oerjan, now I wish I knew dalmål 23:53:55 oh gods 23:53:57 ENGLISH 23:53:58 Gregor, how is zee going? 23:54:16 elliottable: o kamitachi 23:54:17 Gregor, anything screenshot-worthy yet? 23:54:27 Elferv; t'xinįlœ. 23:54:35 I know some greek! mia nihta mono den ftani 23:54:43 mais l'anglais est nul 23:54:50 olsner, I read that last word as "fthang" first XD 23:55:27 yeah, I thought it was cthulhu-speak for a long while, until I managed to find a forum post identifying it as greek 23:55:36 olsner, XD 23:56:17 (the name of a Shulman song, btw, http://open.spotify.com/track/77srFu8ZmyivyhM9YZkNlk) 23:56:30 Xr'ani • dok'teh âmana tulvo p'tkin jołæ 23:56:33 cthulhu-speak is easy once you get the fthang of it 23:56:56 harr 23:57:06 olsner, don't have spotify. 23:57:13 AnMaster: sucks to be you then 23:57:26 olsner, as far as I knew there was no linux client for non-premium? 23:57:32 miso mig'uyt • manv'o tild yrtvn arci ö 23:57:37 well, it's bound to be on your favourite p2p network anyway 23:57:37 AnMaster: WINE 23:57:40 Works great 23:57:55 Interface is nonnative anyway 23:57:58 WINE isn't perfect 23:58:04 olsner, I don't deal in that. I tend to order my music from naxosdirect after hearing it on P2 :P 23:58:19 spotify works fine in Wine anyway, except for playback of local files 23:58:19 Sgeo, iirc the spotify client doesn't work well at all with wine 23:58:25 Sgeo: Is for spotify. 23:58:28 stuttering sound and so on 23:58:36 "deal in that" 23:58:39 Sgeo, so indeed 23:59:12 LET'S DO SOME CANNABIS DRUGS THEN DEAL IN COPYRIGHT-INFRINGING MATERIALS 23:59:15 I've had no problems... but maybe you just need to uninstall pulseaudio to make it work 23:59:26 * Sgeo would love to use ReactOS as his primary OS 23:59:29 olsner, I don't use pulseaudio on that system 23:59:32 olsner, I use jack 23:59:39 probably just as bad 23:59:57 bah! why do they even bother inventing this crap? to make sound more difficult?