←2010-06-22 2010-06-23 2010-06-24→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:20:35 <olsner> oerjan: you broke our dutch guy, he speaks norwegian instead of swedish now!
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00:23:56 <ehirdiphone> Night.
00:24:05 <olsner> oerjan: oh! and incidentally he has the same name as you, only in dutch
00:24:18 <ehirdiphone> Orjanken.
00:24:26 <ehirdiphone> Night.
00:24:33 <CakeProphet> ehirdiphone: what became of Braces?
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00:24:45 <CakeProphet> :(
00:24:55 <olsner> we've been drive-by ehirded
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00:56:10 <oerjan> olsner: wait, what?
00:57:05 <AnMaster> dbc, <cpressey> dbc and I are categorical duels. <-- what was that about?
00:57:39 <AnMaster> olsner, who would that be
00:57:47 <AnMaster> olsner, and indeed that seems seriously broken
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01:00:20 <oerjan> who the heck is our dutch guy
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01:01:08 <oerjan> categorical duel is clearly the same as a galois connection
01:02:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, argh
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01:39:07 <CakeProphet> has anyone else read Mathematicians in Love?
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01:40:21 <Sgeo> Anyone willing to join me in working on this project I've been working on?
01:40:30 <Sgeo> o.O at Warrigal not being named uorygl
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01:40:38 <uorygl> Thanks for reminding me.
01:40:44 <uorygl> What's the project you're working on?
01:41:42 <Sgeo> A remake of a previous game on this platform
01:42:47 <Sgeo> It [at least the portion that's being programmed] is written in C#
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01:49:59 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: it's a virtual world kind of thing right? If I didn't have so much on my plate right now then I would actually consider it.
01:50:40 <Sgeo> Yes, but the "virtual world" bit is already programmed long ago, we don't need to handle how to display stuff, or networking issues, etc. etc.
01:52:34 <Sgeo> Hm, thank you anyway
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02:02:58 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: ah, so scripting more or less?
02:03:28 <Sgeo> Not really :/
02:03:32 <CakeProphet> hmm, ah
02:03:42 <CakeProphet> it would be nice to have a scripting engine of some kind. Maybe use Lua.
02:03:50 <Sgeo> Even things that should probably be scripted really aren't :/
02:04:00 <Sgeo> We could add a scripting engine to the bot, but I'm not sure if it's worth it
02:04:10 <CakeProphet> yeah. possible
02:04:25 <CakeProphet> It would depend on how big of a project it was.
02:04:28 <CakeProphet> I assume not very big.
02:04:36 <Sgeo> There's a grand total of 7 puzzles that will be programmed, 6 of which have already been programmed in C#
02:05:01 <Sgeo> It feels big, but maybe that's because of the hiatuses I've taken, and the repeated rewrites, etc. etc.
02:06:28 <GreaseMonkey> lua is actually harder than it sounds to parse
02:06:43 <GreaseMonkey> a lua vm isn't particularly hard, though
02:06:57 <Sgeo> I think I saw some Lua parser for C# though
02:07:07 <GreaseMonkey> i tried making a lua bytecode compiler in lua
02:07:12 <GreaseMonkey> the point? i have a lua vm in java
02:07:42 <Sgeo> The thing is, at this late stage, there's not much point in suddenly adding scripting
02:08:00 <Sgeo> Although the virtual world does have limited scripting abilities, which I do take advantage of, instead of hardcoding in the bot
02:08:36 <Sgeo> I'm pretty sure it's not TC though, and things that happen tend either not be visible to anyone but the one person, or to everyone around at the time, but no one else
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02:43:51 <coppro> I need to stop using Firefox
02:48:07 <Sgeo> Chrome++
02:50:30 <wareya> I need to stop using chrome
02:50:45 <wareya> the UI is screwet
02:50:49 <wareya> screwey*
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03:05:12 <CakeProphet> I think I'm going to make a little Python library
03:05:23 <CakeProphet> that takes a function, extracts the source code, and saves it to a file
03:05:28 <CakeProphet> so I can save snippets of things I'm doing in the shell.
03:05:38 <CakeProphet> s/saves/appends/
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03:11:06 <oerjan> CakeProphet: i'm not sure python actually preserves the source code of functions after they're defined...
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04:12:54 <CakeProphet> hmmm... are PRNG less random on small ranges of values?
04:13:12 <CakeProphet> my coin toss function in Python seems a little wonky to me.
04:13:46 <oerjan> they're frequently less random on lower bits
04:14:36 <oerjan> so using modulo to reduce the range is not recommended
04:15:12 <oerjan> this all presumably depends on exactly which PRNG is used
04:15:33 <coppro> While they've improved, a 'typical' PRNG will probably fail the 3- or 4-dimensionality test
04:16:24 <oerjan> CakeProphet: there is of course also the possibility you have an actual bug :D
04:17:04 <CakeProphet> ha. In Python?
04:17:06 <CakeProphet> import random
04:17:09 <CakeProphet> random.randint(0,1)
04:17:16 <CakeProphet> I'v got at lest one one and one zero
04:17:30 <oerjan> right... that _should_ be taken care of, then
04:17:39 <CakeProphet> on an unfortunate note
04:17:52 <CakeProphet> the inspect module in Python cannot grab source lines from functions defined in a shell
04:18:12 <oerjan> CakeProphet: that's what i suspected above
04:18:19 <CakeProphet> this greatly saddens me. Sometimes I make some useful little script-like function things, but I never take the time to save them.
04:19:01 <CakeProphet> I guess it makes sense. It would be ridiculous to save a source string for every function defined. Like the __doc__ attribute.
04:19:12 <oerjan> CakeProphet: hm, maybe you can find another way to save lines as they are entered?
04:19:41 <CakeProphet> hrm...
04:19:51 <CakeProphet> would require some kind of debugger magic.
04:19:57 <CakeProphet> I think.
04:20:19 <CakeProphet> I don't know how Python's debugger module works. But I've seen an implementation of goto and come from in Python that uses it.
04:20:23 <oerjan> well some hook into the input routine the python repl uses, or something?
04:20:53 <CakeProphet> perhaps. Not sure if it has said hook. I'll look around, just not at the moment. It is definitely something I desire.
04:21:28 <CakeProphet> I'd love to just have a file that has functions I've defined in shell appended to it... actually I'd have more than one. One uncategorized and others with definite categories.
04:21:57 <CakeProphet> ....here's a cool idea. Why not have functions that do things like "move source of function F in module A to module B"
04:22:09 <CakeProphet> that seems pretty useful. I'd imagine it being faster than copying and pasting.
04:23:08 * oerjan suspects that's such a thing as them thar newfangled eye dee ee things do...
04:23:30 <CakeProphet> yeah... but I can never find one I like. The interfaces are always ridiculous.
04:23:40 <CakeProphet> and I've never had the patience to sit down and learn something like emacs.
04:23:54 <CakeProphet> oerjan: what IDEs do you use?
04:24:14 <oerjan> none either, just vim
04:24:26 <oerjan> i'm a very small scale programmer at best
04:24:41 <CakeProphet> my computer is kind of slow. I'm working on an Android app right now and Eclipse is dismally slow.
04:25:01 <CakeProphet> I usually just use gedit... but there are some manual text-editing things I do that I really wish I could automate.
04:27:33 <CakeProphet> I might try emacs just because it seems kind of tailored to that kind of thing.
04:28:11 <CakeProphet> Might as well learn all the esoteric key combinations. And programming in some crazy aspect-oriented Lisp dialect sounds fun.
04:28:45 <CakeProphet> in any case
04:28:51 <CakeProphet> I'm going to go get fucked up and then study some history
04:28:57 <CakeProphet> see everyone later.
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08:19:41 <augur> future alise: comic for you? http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php
08:20:02 <augur> dont respond via logs, i dont log read. ping until i respond.
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08:21:55 <CakeProphet> Are there any register/stackvirtual machine hybrids?
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11:59:11 <cheater99> hai
11:59:17 <ais523> hi
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12:11:55 <oerjan> xkcd :D (especially the hovertext)
12:18:33 <AnMaster> hm, I don't get the hover text. *googles that word*
12:18:50 <oerjan> consider yourself lucky :D
12:19:36 * oerjan only knows because he sometimes reads newspapers
12:19:59 <AnMaster> I don't during summer
12:20:09 <AnMaster> and never the sports pages
12:20:41 <oerjan> oh and of course because there have been reddit links about it
12:23:29 <ais523> amusing spam seen at Slashdot: That is one of the greatest things ever.That is one of the most incredible feelings on Earth.Thank you for bringing a well thought out and reasoned comment to the discussion. <a href="[snip]">Cheap Wholesale T-shirts</a>
12:23:34 <ais523> where I snipped out the link location
12:23:49 <AnMaster> hah
12:24:06 <ais523> (also, converted HTML to plaintext for IRC purposes)
12:24:13 <ais523> even funnier, it wasn't actually in reply to anything
12:24:56 <oerjan> ais523: this feels relevant: http://www.theonion.com/articles/amazing-new-hyperbolic-chamber-greatest-invention,1321/
12:25:08 * AnMaster wonders if 98 SEK / month is cheap or expensive for 3G. Includes 1 GB data traffic / month at 6 Mbit/s, after that reduced to crawl speed but doesn't cost extra.
12:25:20 <ais523> how much is an SEK?
12:25:22 <AnMaster> 5000 free SMS / month (would never reach that limit)
12:25:28 <AnMaster> ais523, in which currency?
12:25:36 <ais523> any I know the value of
12:25:39 <ais523> although preferably GBP
12:25:47 <AnMaster> sec
12:25:55 <AnMaster> 98 Swedish kronor = 8.47548881 British pounds
12:25:57 <AnMaster> says google
12:26:07 <ais523> hmm, seems pretty good
12:26:19 <AnMaster> hm
12:26:24 <ais523> but I'm not sure how much it /should/ cost, I don't have a mobile
12:26:29 <AnMaster> hah
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13:18:38 <cheater99> is alise canned again
13:20:12 <oerjan> cheater99: yes but he sometimes sneaks in here as ehirdiphone
13:20:28 <cheater99> i thought that was just for one week
13:20:38 <cheater99> how did she get holed up again?
13:21:02 <oerjan> cheater99: it's _every_ week, more or less.
13:21:17 <cheater99> what about those long weeks where she was out
13:21:22 <oerjan> they're demanding he live there
13:21:36 <cheater99> is that because of her gender ambiguosity?
13:22:03 <cheater99> eh, either way
13:22:09 <oerjan> cheater99: well there was one week recently when he had some days off, presumably because school's out or something...
13:22:19 <cheater99> i just hope alise gets out quickly
13:22:27 <cheater99> so we can abuse her on irc here
13:22:56 <oerjan> cheater99: there is no gender ambiguity, just a joke based on a nick change
13:23:15 <cheater99> that's the way.... you see things.
13:23:57 <oerjan> well alise _has_ mentioned he's often mistaken for female irl, but i have had no impression he really wants to be
13:24:46 <cheater99> admission will come.
13:24:55 <oerjan> perhaps, perhaps :D
13:25:07 <AnMaster> I doubt it
13:25:08 <cheater99> why would you admit being mistaken for a girl if you didn't secretly wish you were one?
13:25:14 <oerjan> just as long as he doesn't go as crazy as fax
13:25:27 <AnMaster> cheater99, because you don't have a huge ego admitting that is no issue?
13:25:37 <cheater99> ?
13:25:55 <AnMaster> I refuse to explain this joke
13:27:19 <cheater99> that was a joke?
13:27:22 <cheater99> you have failed me.
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13:29:50 <cheater99> that's moderately cool
13:30:00 <cheater99> i have xchat maximized
13:30:06 <cheater99> and i cannot switch to any other apps
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13:31:42 <AnMaster> cheater99, what is moderately cool?
13:31:56 <cheater99> the thing i just mentioned.
13:31:59 <AnMaster> ah
13:32:15 <AnMaster> cheater99, that referred to something you was going to say. I see
13:32:19 <AnMaster> confused me a bit
13:34:45 <oerjan> the joke struck a time traveling paradox and ceased to have ever existed
13:34:55 <oklopol> gender ambiguosity?
13:35:15 <oklopol> oh okay
13:35:19 <oerjan> oklopol: alise likes to use female pronouns with his nick
13:35:31 <oklopol> cheater99: little kids occasionally mistake me for a girl
13:35:40 <oerjan> NOOOOO
13:35:55 <oerjan> oklopol: you're supposed to be this channel's epitome of masculinity
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13:37:10 <oklopol> well i have long hair, that's enough for kids occasionally
13:37:38 <oklopol> and according to some people i also look somewhat girlish, which is weird because i almost never shave my highly irregular beard
13:38:16 <oklopol> but okay i'll try to keep epitomizing
13:38:24 <oklopol> i was just not aware of this
13:38:28 * oerjan has no idea how oklopol looks, actually, as evidenced by the fact he had no idea oklopol had a beard
13:38:39 <oklopol> well i haven't had one for all that long
13:38:46 <oerjan> although beards are masculine, so that's ok
13:38:55 <oklopol> but just like my hair, i usually just let it grow as much as it likes
13:39:05 <oklopol> and in any shape
13:39:34 <oklopol> just like i don't cut my body parts if they grow too big
13:39:36 <oerjan> in fact the only person on the channel i know/can remember how looks is gregor
13:39:44 <oerjan> oh wait there is one more person
13:39:47 <oklopol> i used to have a book on frappr
13:39:59 <oerjan> (the obvious one)
13:40:10 <oklopol> but that was the only picture online afaik, i actually doubt many people have access to any kinds of pictures of me
13:40:22 <oklopol> (i don't)
13:40:36 <oklopol> oh wait i did take those vids
13:40:41 <oklopol> where i played the piano naked
13:40:49 <oerjan> ...right
13:41:03 <oklopol> now i kinda wanna go play the piano naked
13:41:11 <oerjan> SUIT YOURSELF
13:41:16 <oklopol> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
13:41:33 <oklopol> i'm assuming you still shave regularly?
13:41:33 <oerjan> wait, that's actually ambiguous
13:41:37 <oerjan> yes
13:41:38 <oklopol> wasn't that the point?
13:41:53 <oerjan> nope, only discovered it after pressing enter
13:42:07 <oklopol> i have a hard time believing that :\
13:42:30 <oerjan> my unconscious has a mind of its own
13:42:31 <oklopol> it was probably clear what i was implying by "still", that was accidental meanness.
13:43:04 <oklopol> (not sure you noticed so maybe it would've been more polite not to mention it :D)
13:43:13 <oerjan> i'm not aware of beards stopping to grow, usually. now the top of my head on the other hand...
13:43:45 <oklopol> oh no i meant because i've understood you're basically a hermit :D
13:43:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, wait you mean it wasn't intentional to refer to wearing a suit there?
13:44:01 <AnMaster> like oklopol I have a hard time believing that
13:44:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: nope it wasn't
13:44:23 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i'm assuming you still shave regularly? <-- do you?
13:44:38 <ais523> I don't shave at all
13:44:43 <AnMaster> nor do I
13:44:44 <AnMaster> well
13:44:59 <ais523> I like my beard
13:45:02 <oklopol> oh, actually i guess i can believe you were saying "as you wish", for some reason i thought you meant "put some clothes on" and it was an accident that it was an idiom xD
13:45:05 <AnMaster> I need to do something about the moustache sometimes. Otherwise it interferes with eating
13:45:06 <AnMaster> :/
13:45:09 <oklopol> AnMaster: no, i do not
13:45:11 * oerjan suddenly realizes he's in a dark channel with a lot of men with full beards
13:45:16 <AnMaster> but apart from that I don't shave
13:45:29 <AnMaster> oerjan, alas mine grow slowly...
13:46:01 <oklopol> i just meant oerjan seems like the kind of person who would shave his beard every morning (at 12:13) years after stopping to go out of his house
13:46:08 <AnMaster> I have very thick hair on top of my head, but my beard is less well behaved. :(
13:46:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, XD
13:46:41 <oerjan> oklopol: i haven't stopped to go out of the house
13:46:47 <oklopol> i'm just making sure you understand i was implying this, because otherwise it makes no sense i apologized for it
13:46:53 <oklopol> oerjan: i know, added some joking
13:47:07 <AnMaster> outside? I heard rumours of this place
13:47:12 <AnMaster> strange place I heard
13:47:16 <oklopol> i mean i do know everything you have *told* me about your routines
13:47:19 <AnMaster> no roof.
13:47:25 <AnMaster> isn't it just mystical?
13:47:27 <oklopol> AnMaster: what about rain then?
13:47:30 <oklopol> buckets?
13:47:32 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean the shower?
13:47:34 <ais523> if oerjan wasn't Norwegian, I could imagine him spending his entire day in an immaculate suit
13:47:41 <oklopol> AnMaster: ohh that's what it's for
13:47:42 <ais523> but somehow that strikes me as not being a particularly Norwegian thing to do
13:47:57 <AnMaster> s/mystical/mythical/
13:47:58 <AnMaster> typo there
13:48:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: i have no idea how my beard behaves because i've never let it grow, it starts annoyingly itching after 2/3 days
13:48:17 <oerjan> ok i guess technically that's a part of its behavior
13:48:23 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah but that passes if you wait a bit more IME
13:48:28 <oklopol> yeah, i guess my shaving guess was based on the fact oerjan looks a bit like a bible salesman
13:48:54 <AnMaster> ais523, oerjan isn't very Norwegian. Doesn't like skiing iirc!
13:48:55 <oklopol> (again, i don't actively remember faces so i cannot say this is really my opinion, vague recollection :D)
13:49:26 <oklopol> i think i've seen ais523 too but i confuse him with this really bearded dude from uni
13:49:28 <oerjan> oklopol: the rain is just because the outside is leaking, no wonder with no roof
13:49:36 * AnMaster listens to Gregor's music.
13:49:46 <AnMaster> Gregor, I really like the wipp previews of op13
13:50:08 <oklopol> Gregor: all your music sucks ass in general, and you should stop composing and become a bricklayer.
13:50:20 <oklopol> fuck you, seriously
13:50:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, what?
13:50:27 <oklopol> where's his musics again btw?
13:50:32 <oklopol> AnMaster: i'm trying new things
13:50:33 <AnMaster> oklopol, codu.org
13:50:36 <oklopol> remember, new oklopol
13:50:40 <oklopol> oh right
13:50:53 <oklopol> that webpage the name of which i've heard 70 times
13:50:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, http://codu.org/music/ and http://codu.org/music/wipp.php to be more specific
13:51:05 <oerjan> oklopol: the only picture of me you can possibly have seen _does_ look a bit like a bible salesman, come to think of it
13:51:16 <ais523> <oerjan> oklopol: the rain is just because the outside is leaking, no wonder with no roof <-- took me about 10 seconds to figure out that that was a joke
13:51:18 <oklopol> oerjan: can you up a more recent one?
13:51:25 <ais523> instead I just thought I'd missed context
13:51:34 <AnMaster> oerjan, what photo is that?
13:51:49 <oklopol> ais523: that was why i asked "buckets?", that was actually sort of *my* joke
13:52:03 <AnMaster> <ais523> instead I just thought I'd missed context <-- instead of what?
13:52:07 <oerjan> oklopol: i have no digital camera in any form. although my dad is insisting on financing a new cell phone for my birthday so that may change
13:52:08 <oklopol> that the roof must be very leaky given there isn't one
13:52:14 <oklopol> oerjan: coool
13:52:20 <ais523> AnMaster: instead of oerjan having made a joke
13:52:21 <oklopol> can you play the piano naked?
13:52:34 <ais523> oklopol: what a strange question
13:52:42 <oklopol> ais523: i meant, oerjan in the pic
13:52:49 <ais523> if it's directed at me, given a suitable piano I can play it while wearing clothes, and I'm not sure if the lack of the clothes would make a difference
13:52:51 <oklopol> you may have missed the context for that
13:52:54 <ais523> ah
13:53:05 <AnMaster> ais523, which ones of the jokes?
13:53:17 <AnMaster> oh that one
13:53:18 <AnMaster> right
13:53:34 <oklopol> i have videos of my playing the piano naked online
13:53:50 <oklopol> (you can't see anything, but technically)
13:53:54 <AnMaster> ...
13:54:15 <fizzie> I don't suppose there's any nice assembler-oriented text frontend for GDB? Something simple, with a disassembly view, IP highlight, single-key single-step, and register values continuously visible in a separate pane or something. (I've used cgdb with single-key macros of "stepi" and "info registers", but it's still a bit pessimal.)
13:54:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, um. set gdb language to asm iirc?
13:55:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, or have you tried that already? As for frontend in general, something like ddd can probably set up to show registers in a separate pane
13:55:32 <AnMaster> but it was years ago I used any frontend for gdb at all
13:55:38 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~ (must be about 15 years old by now)
13:55:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, also I suppose there is some emacs fontend for gdb that could do this. There is bound to be one almost by definition
13:56:30 <AnMaster> oerjan, wrong mime type
13:56:34 <fizzie> Setting the language doesn't really do much; you still have to type out "info registers" every time you want to see the values. And there's no permanently-visible-with-current-row-highlighted disassembly view either. It's not *bad*, it's just not quite what I want.
13:56:37 <oklopol> yeah i had no idea you look like that
13:56:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, wants to save as attachment
13:56:47 <oklopol> absolutely no idea
13:57:01 <AnMaster> Opening 'http://oerjan.nvg.org/face.gif~' failed: Procedure 'file-uri-load' returned no return values
13:57:06 <oklopol> seen that guy tho, not sure where, without cheating
13:57:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, doesn't work in gimp either
13:57:24 <fizzie> ddd is (well, was five-ten years ago) pretty horrible; cgdb is at least a text-based thing.
13:57:30 <AnMaster> oh wait
13:57:40 <AnMaster> oerjan, that is you?
13:57:55 * AnMaster tries to remember the name of that reverse image search engine
13:57:55 <oerjan> AnMaster: yep
13:58:06 <AnMaster> because that face seems familiar too
13:58:10 <oklopol> oerjan: can you see how to construct X and Y such that there is no injection from one to the other?
13:58:14 <oerjan> i doubt it's anywhere else
13:58:34 <oklopol> i've been trying to do this, but i have a very limited set of tools for this in my head
13:58:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm
13:59:01 <oerjan> oklopol: um in ZFC there always is
13:59:24 <oklopol> oerjan: sorry yesterday's context
13:59:33 <oklopol> computable injections
13:59:37 <oklopol> subsets of N
13:59:41 -!- Quadresce` has joined.
13:59:54 <fizzie> There's something in Emacs, but, well.
14:00:50 -!- Quadresce` has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:00:58 <oerjan> AnMaster: btw it's the wrong mime type because i've appended ~ in order that it _not_ appear on the web - face.gif was used for some nvg.org directory page at one time
14:00:59 <oklopol> btw maybe a bit nontrivial (but probably not), there exists a set that's properly smaller than N w.r.t. injections, and properly bigger than it w.r.t. surjections
14:01:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, what?
14:01:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, are you a vim user?
14:01:07 <AnMaster> or something
14:01:19 <oklopol> so you see what those terms mean or do i define? or actually do you care at all?
14:02:02 <fizzie> I guess I'll have to try it. It does have some sort of "gdb-many-windows" variable which makes it show up a register buffer (where you can even edit the values).
14:02:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, never tried it myself
14:03:02 <oerjan> oklopol: well i can guess what they mean but it's not a subject i know about
14:03:04 <oklopol> anyway the set of (encodings of, or as an instance of the same problem for subsets of {0, 1}^*) prefices of the binary expansion of an uncomputable real number
14:03:24 <oklopol> oerjan: well to me it's a subject i invented yesterday
14:03:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and can't gdb itself support split windows? Or is that only for showing source in the upper half?
14:03:55 <fizzie> I don't really know about that. I guess I should read the manual there.
14:04:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm are you an emacs or vim user?
14:04:12 <AnMaster> I don't remember
14:04:32 <fizzie> I'm both, which is even worse, I guess.
14:04:35 <fizzie> "The gdb Text User Interface (TUI) is a terminal interface which uses the curses library to show the source file, the assembly output, the program registers and gdb commands in separate text windows."
14:04:41 <fizzie> That doesn't sound so bad.
14:04:50 <ais523> fizzie: heh, it's well-known that most of the people in this channel either use both vim/emacs, or neither
14:04:56 <ais523> except by a few trolls
14:05:06 <oerjan> oklopol: well any subset of N is properly smaller wrt injections, and if you make it include some simple infinite set like all even numbers it will be bigger by surjections. then you can probably tweak the odd subset to be too complicated to have a computable bijection
14:05:08 <ais523> thus, the answer to "are you an emacs or vim user" should be "yes" or "no"
14:05:23 <AnMaster> ais523, emacs, kate, nano for me
14:05:34 <oklopol> oerjan: no any two RE sets are the same size for instance, with both definitions
14:05:46 <ais523> AnMaster: I use something like six or seven editors
14:05:52 <ais523> most commonly emacs and gedit, though
14:05:58 <oerjan> oklopol: well the set cannot be RE then...
14:06:07 <AnMaster> well, I do use gedit if there is no other option
14:06:11 <oklopol> indeed it can't
14:06:24 <ais523> I use gedit for little things for which notepad would be sufficient
14:06:55 <oklopol> or wait maybe i'm misunderstanding what you're saying
14:07:29 <oerjan> ais523: yay i'm a troll now (never use emacs these days, only vim)
14:07:43 <oklopol> "well any subset of N is properly smaller wrt injections" <<< this i don't think is true, "if you make it include some simple infinite set like all even numbers it will be bigger by surjections" is not either afaiu
14:07:51 <ais523> oerjan: I meant, it was a troll who recently tried to make everyone side with emacs or vim
14:08:23 <oklopol> X is properly inj-smaller than Y if there's an injection from X to Y but not from Y to X, for surjs the other way around, just to make sure.
14:08:48 <oerjan> oklopol: um the identity function will be an injection, and division by 2 function will be a surjection
14:09:02 <oerjan> oh hm
14:09:26 <AnMaster> oerjan, on what set would division by two be a surjection?
14:09:27 <oerjan> ok having all evens would ruin the lack of a reverse injection
14:09:31 <oklopol> well explain whether those statements were actually wrong or if i misunderstood you
14:09:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: integer division
14:09:45 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah
14:10:03 <AnMaster> oerjan, Would be a bijection on R clearly
14:10:12 <oerjan> oklopol: no by your definition what i said isn't smaller by injection
14:10:16 <oerjan> AnMaster: or Q
14:10:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, well yes
14:11:14 <oklopol> oerjan: so... were you wrong? and which of those two statements are you referring to?
14:11:37 <oklopol> talking is so complicated :-P
14:11:44 <oerjan> oklopol: my example was wrong
14:11:47 <oklopol> okay
14:13:09 <oerjan> oklopol: however this means there could be no computable injection from N to X, if Y is a subset of N
14:13:23 <oklopol> so basically the question is, by those definitions, can we find two sets that are comparable in size in both ways (inj and surj), but disagree on those
14:13:42 <oklopol> (meaning we probably shouldn't think of them as sizes...)
14:13:47 <oerjan> oklopol: which is actually stronger than X being non-RE, isn't it
14:14:00 <oklopol> i believe so
14:15:05 <oklopol> (anyway i already gave the answer, i guess you must've missed it)
14:15:06 <oerjan> in fact X should have no infinite RE subset
14:15:10 <oklopol> yep
14:15:36 <oklopol> the prof i mentioned this to's first thought was that's impossible
14:15:45 <oklopol> first time i outsmarted him
14:15:56 <oklopol> (by at least 10 seconds)
14:16:01 <oerjan> oklopol: that uncomputable real prefix thing?
14:16:04 <oklopol> yeah
14:16:38 <AnMaster> is X a specific set or "any set" here?
14:17:02 <oklopol> the idea generalizes muchly, say to functions from N to N, taking the language {f(1)#...#f(n) | n \in N}
14:17:28 <oklopol> if you have an infinite RE subset, then f(N) is RE too
14:17:33 <oklopol> AnMaster: any subset of N
14:18:17 <oklopol> we're talking about computable functions between subsets of N, f : X -> Y, defined with tm's that, given and element of X give you an element of Y, and can do anything outside X (even not halt)
14:18:38 <oklopol> (i don't know if this definition has been mentioned, you might disagree on its naturality)
14:19:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah
14:19:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah
14:19:37 <oerjan> oklopol: sounds like what i thought. anyway, see you later
14:19:41 <AnMaster> hm
14:19:45 <oklopol> okay bye
14:19:55 <AnMaster> sounds quite interesting
14:20:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Bye!).
14:20:39 <oklopol> i think it is, i'm pretty sure it should be embeddable in something like recursion theory, but the one prof i asked saw no direct connection (not really his area)
14:20:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, you mean so that it gives you an injection from X to Y?
14:21:07 <oklopol> no it does not have to be an injection, the definition of computable injection is that it's also an injection, as one might guess :)
14:21:30 <oklopol> and surjections mean Y is sort of "RE, once you know X"
14:21:38 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah, so it can give the same element of Y for several elements of X then?
14:22:15 <AnMaster> or do you mean that there can be several elements of Y mapping to the same element of X? Or both of these?
14:22:20 <oklopol> AnMaster: it can be any function, we just require that elements of X go inside Y, otherwise the tm can do anything it likes.
14:22:31 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah
14:22:32 <oklopol> Y doesn't map to X
14:22:35 <oklopol> X maps to Y
14:22:46 <oklopol> deterministic turing machiens
14:22:48 <oklopol> *machines
14:23:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, so the function f(x) = 1 where {1,2,3} satisfies this then?
14:23:15 <AnMaster> err where Y = {1,2,3}
14:23:16 <AnMaster> I meant
14:23:21 <AnMaster> that Y = dropped out somewhere
14:23:42 <oklopol> yes, a tm computing that can be given any domain
14:24:10 <AnMaster> oklopol, well I meant "so constant function is okay then?" with that
14:24:18 <AnMaster> hm
14:24:27 <oklopol> and my answer applies to that
14:24:30 <oklopol> yes, it's oikay
14:24:31 <AnMaster> right
14:24:31 <oklopol> *oaky
14:24:33 <oklopol> *oaky
14:24:36 <oklopol> *fuck it
14:24:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, heh
14:24:59 <fizzie> Oaky oklopol. Alliteration!
14:25:12 <oklopol> but i haven't even been able to prove there are two sets that are incomparable, that is, two sets with no injection either way
14:25:36 <ais523> oklopol: {Chuck Norris} and the natural numbers
14:25:38 <oklopol> currently my definition of size is with injectivity, X is smaller than Y if there's an injection from X to Y. this is natural because if X is a subset of Y then identity works
14:25:56 <oklopol> *smaller than of equal size
14:26:01 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me).
14:26:05 <oklopol> (not really a direct substitution)
14:26:47 <oklopol> but it's obvious to me that subsets of N aren't totally ordered with this definition
14:27:22 <oklopol> i mean totally comparable, you'll get a partition into equivalence classes ofc, because injections are a preorder
14:27:28 <AnMaster> ais523, why Chuck Norris?
14:27:46 <AnMaster> or was that a bad chuck norris joke?
14:27:48 <ais523> AnMaster: because you can't compare him with a natural number, or indeed anything else
14:27:56 <AnMaster> okay then it was
14:28:55 <fizzie> Terminilogy seen during a wikipedia browsing run: "A totally ineffable cardinal is a cardinal that is n-ineffable for every n." It's nice that there's a techical definition for that word too.
14:29:25 <AnMaster> oklopol, hm are there any incomparable sets? Or is that not yet proven either way?
14:31:32 <Deewiant> http://www.ashleymills.com/?q=befunge_applet_lite treats undefined commands as 'push ASCII value of command on stack'
14:31:53 <Deewiant> Is there any precedent for that?
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14:33:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not that I can remember
14:33:50 <fizzie> It does sound weird to me.
14:33:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, 93?
14:33:58 <Deewiant> Yes, 93
14:34:03 <Deewiant> http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/28625/ relies on that behaviour
14:35:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lets see.. brainfuck, C, befunge? Anything else?
14:35:19 <Deewiant> Python, Perl, Ruby
14:35:38 <AnMaster> I have to admit I didn't spot the befunge part right away, probably wouldn't if you hadn't mentioned that
14:35:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heh?
14:36:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what does the program do?
14:36:48 <Deewiant> Prints "404"
14:37:01 <AnMaster> hm
14:37:12 <fizzie> It also relies on a . that doesn't put a space in.
14:37:21 <Deewiant> Well, not really.
14:37:32 <Deewiant> It still looks the same :-P
14:38:11 <fizzie> Not quite, but I guess it's reasonable.
14:38:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so that program is "definee"44.*.@ ?
14:38:37 <Deewiant> No
14:38:42 <Deewiant> It's
14:39:00 <Deewiant> definee4*.@
14:39:03 <AnMaster> you said it relied on undefined pushing on stack
14:39:11 <Deewiant> I did
14:39:13 <Deewiant> And it does
14:39:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes but I tried to translate to "pushes on stack"
14:39:21 <AnMaster> in normal befunge
14:39:31 <Deewiant> Right, to make it valid it needs quotes
14:39:36 <Deewiant> "definee"4*.@
14:39:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, exactly
14:39:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there are two 4
14:39:50 <Deewiant> Or to make it run in most interps, define"e"4*.@ is enough
14:40:08 <Deewiant> No; you're missing the line-break symbol on the previous line
14:40:13 <Deewiant> Or line-joiner symbol
14:40:14 <Deewiant> Whatever
14:40:17 <Deewiant> The arrows
14:40:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh so that is what it is
14:40:24 <Deewiant> Or look at the line numbers on the left
14:40:42 <AnMaster> right
14:41:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, right, I looked at the "4." bit and thought it's going to do it separately, i.e. "4 0 4 ": that's why I mentioned the spaces. Missed the line-joiners too on the first read; only just noticed them while tracing further.
14:41:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't get how #> is quoted properly for C though
14:41:44 <Deewiant> AnMaster: /*
14:41:48 <AnMaster> oh up there
14:41:49 <AnMaster> right
14:42:12 <Deewiant> fizzie: FWIW that applet also doesn't print a space after .
14:43:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how did you find that applet?
14:43:22 <fizzie> Deewiant: Heh, well... the spec does say it should. (In contrast to the undefined-handling bit, which it is silent about.)
14:43:24 <Deewiant> Linked from that stack overflow
14:43:28 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yep
14:45:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, should report a bug
14:46:47 <Deewiant> I just commented on reddit instead
14:47:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm
15:04:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, why do you have the "523" in your name?
15:04:52 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's my email address, which was originally assigned at random
15:05:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
15:05:10 <ais523> if they're going to force an arbitrary number into my email at random, I'm going to use it everywhere just so it becomes non-arbitrary! That'll show them!
15:05:25 <Phantom_Hoover> But it's annoying to type!
15:05:28 <ais523> even more amusingly, the number seems to have some significance in Discordianism, although I wasn't aware of this at the time
15:05:31 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you have tab-complete?
15:05:39 <Phantom_Hoover> At least, until you get tabbing.
15:05:42 <ais523> I suppose most three-digit numbers are significant to something
15:05:54 <Phantom_Hoover> All 1000 of them?
15:06:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, wait.
15:06:17 <Phantom_Hoover> All 900 of them?
15:06:39 <ais523> I'd think so, 900 isn't a lot given the number of things in the world there are to be significant to
15:08:14 <cheater99> good point
15:08:32 <cheater99> wow, defragmenting my dpkg database takes a long time.
15:08:56 <cheater99> cp -a info info.new .... running.
15:09:45 <Phantom_Hoover> How does that defrag?
15:10:00 <cheater99> think about it for a second
15:10:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: because files fragment when they're made larger
15:10:22 <ais523> he's creating a new file from scratch, which will therefore be created in a defragged state
15:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
15:10:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, tab complete
15:10:30 <cheater99> i ^C'd it and put time around it.
15:10:35 <cheater99> let's see what happens.
15:10:44 <ais523> cheater99: what filesystem are you using, anyway? fragmentation doesn't hurt performance on ext2/3/4 until they're around 90% full
15:10:46 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, you can't tab-complete "tab-complete".
15:10:53 <Phantom_Hoover> And it takes ages to type.
15:10:56 -!- ais523 has changed nick to tab-complete.
15:10:58 <tab-complete> now you can
15:11:02 <cheater99> ais523: my dpkg db has 30k tiny, tiny, files in it
15:11:15 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, why would you need that?
15:11:22 <Phantom_Hoover> tab-complete, what if I need it to be capital?
15:11:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I meant tab complete ais523
15:11:36 <cheater99> ahahah
15:11:43 <tab-complete> Ironic that I changed my nick, then
15:11:47 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway you could script your client to tab complete tab complete
15:11:50 <cheater99> while i'm doing this, i got a popup complaining about my diskspace running low
15:11:52 <cheater99> amazing
15:12:00 <AnMaster> cheater99, what thing?
15:12:28 <cheater99> time [`cp -a info info.new2`]
15:12:41 <AnMaster> cheater99, I would suggest using xfs
15:12:46 <AnMaster> then xfs_fsr defrags
15:12:49 <cheater99> no
15:12:52 <AnMaster> cheater99, hm?
15:13:00 <cheater99> just 'no'.
15:13:09 <AnMaster> well I use a mix of xfs, jfs, ext4 and ext3
15:13:14 <AnMaster> ext3 is just for /boot
15:13:26 <cheater99> i use a mix of asian, caucasian, and black lovers
15:13:32 <AnMaster> since I still use grub 1 it seems. Don't fix what isn't broken and so on
15:13:37 <AnMaster> especially true for bootloaders
15:13:40 <cheater99> real3m51.322s
15:13:40 <cheater99> user0m0.296s
15:13:40 <cheater99> sys0m2.440s
15:14:03 <AnMaster> cheater99, IO waiting most then
15:14:20 <cheater99> so?
15:14:20 <AnMaster> idle would be neither user nor sys
15:14:29 <AnMaster> but still be wall clock
15:14:44 <AnMaster> cheater99, oh thought you were wondering about user+sys << real
15:14:44 <cheater99> wat
15:14:50 <cheater99> no.
15:15:02 <cheater99> i don't actually know the difference between those numbers
15:15:06 <AnMaster> ah
15:15:42 <AnMaster> real is actual time. user is active time in user space, and sys is active time in kernel. With active time I mean "not spent being idle or running other tasks"
15:16:14 <AnMaster> cheater99, now you know
15:16:19 <cheater99> ok, let's install something and see if it runs fast
15:17:49 <CakeProphet> ugh...
15:18:07 <CakeProphet> I do not want to take take two, 2-and-a-half hour long midterms.
15:18:13 <CakeProphet> 40 minutes away
15:18:20 <oklopol> why not?
15:18:22 <oklopol> exams are fun
15:18:34 <CakeProphet> meh.
15:19:17 <cheater99> drink a lot of water.
15:19:40 <cheater99> ok, doing that didn't really help much at all
15:19:46 <cheater99> but at least now my python is upgraded
15:20:13 <CakeProphet> studying and stress are not as fun.
15:20:22 * CakeProphet gets stressed out by big tests these days. Not in the past.
15:24:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there actually any decent console-based web browsers?
15:25:01 <CakeProphet> why on earth is my computer getting slower these days.
15:25:02 <Phantom_Hoover> None of them seem to be capable of JavaScript.
15:25:18 <Phantom_Hoover> CakeProphet, it's tired before the holidays.
15:25:56 <CakeProphet> hurr hurr.
15:26:05 <fizzie> At least elinks does a bit of JavaScript.
15:26:14 <fizzie> And I thought even lynx had some sort of a patch.
15:26:31 <CakeProphet> But no really. Does cleaning out dust and stuff noticably speed up a computer? I'm at a loss. I assume it's just malfunctioning more.
15:26:50 <CakeProphet> I almost hear a new strange noise everytime I turn it on.
15:29:58 <CakeProphet> hahaha. could you imagine trying to support Javascript's DOM on a command line interface?
15:30:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Why not?
15:31:09 <Phantom_Hoover> And I didn't say command-line, I said console.
15:32:21 <CakeProphet> well yeah, I use "console" and "command-line" to mean the same thing, though I guess technically they're not.
15:33:13 <CakeProphet> I don't know. It just seems like the DOM has a lot of visual elements that you couldn't really support (/well/, at least) on a console display.
15:33:24 <tab-complete> they aren't the same thing, but they're usually used together
15:33:33 <tab-complete> in this case, though, it does make a difference
15:34:11 <Phantom_Hoover> What *is* a command line, come to think of it?
15:34:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Or a command-line utility?
15:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> One which only inputs and outputs characters in a nice, normal way?
15:34:59 <CakeProphet> just a shell utility I guess. Are you looking for a formal definition?
15:35:05 <CakeProphet> I think the intuitive notion is obvious, otherwise.
15:35:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, I suppose.
15:35:34 <CakeProphet> GHCi, Python shell, Erlang shell. I would count those as command lines
15:35:48 <CakeProphet> they could just as easily appear and serve as an Operating System environment when I run sh.
15:35:58 <CakeProphet> if made to do so.
15:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> But what about Emacs or vi?
15:36:23 <tab-complete> a command-line utility is one that has a command line
15:36:30 <tab-complete> and which uses it as the major method of interaction
15:36:32 <tab-complete> thus vi isn't, ed is
15:37:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
15:37:59 <CakeProphet> I'm actually more curious to what a "console" technically is.
15:38:51 <CakeProphet> what seperates it from a window manager? Purely the way in which they structure on-screen elements?
15:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover> A console is a grid of characters.
15:40:05 <Gregor> AnMaster: Even the universally-reviled movement 2? :P
15:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> A GUI works as a grid of pixels.
15:41:06 <Gregor> And a metaGUI is a grid of grids of pixels.
15:42:06 <CakeProphet> hmmm. interesting. You know I can't say I've ever programmed a GUI
15:42:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I started trying.
15:42:17 <CakeProphet> I only have a few years of self-taught programming experience. I've never needed to bother.
15:42:22 <Phantom_Hoover> I gave up shortly after.
15:42:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Writing UIs is for masochists.
15:42:45 <CakeProphet> I might try to make a GUI program of some kind. I'm trying to think of something that wouldn't be too hefty of a project though.
15:42:54 <CakeProphet> just for practice.
15:43:59 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: I'm sure the programming experience depends heavily on the library in use.
15:44:03 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a horrible suspicion that these days you can learn to program without going anywhere near a console.
15:44:44 <CakeProphet> Phantom_Hoover: You are correct. My friend, who is a freshman CS major and just starting to learn C# as his first language... has only ever touched a console because we use version control for one of our projects.
15:44:56 <CakeProphet> but before that he had not touched one. Did everything in Visual Studio
15:45:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Bleurgh.
15:45:26 <CakeProphet> -shrug- It's not evil. There's just more tools in graphical environments these days.
15:45:46 <CakeProphet> I think at some point you have to become at least semi-comfortable with a command line
15:45:55 <CakeProphet> I'm not an expert. But I can do some basic things.
15:46:15 <CakeProphet> one thing I haven't figured out is xarg. It looks very cool but I never get around to learning how it works.
15:46:33 <CakeProphet> *xargs
15:46:42 <Phantom_Hoover> man xargs?
15:46:58 <CakeProphet> Just did out of curiousity. Kind of busy studying though, so I'll probably read later.
15:47:20 <Phantom_Hoover> IIRC it reads lines from stdin, tacks them onto the first non-option argument, then executes the result.
15:47:53 <CakeProphet> ah. well that's simple enough. Is there no inline substition mechanism like a printf string?
15:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> So find ~ | xargs shred will overwrite every file in your home directory with random junk.
15:47:57 <CakeProphet> That would be nice.
15:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> There are more complex things, but that's the basic idea.
15:48:41 <CakeProphet> alright. That sounds useful at least. I bet you could condense a pretty large-scale sysadmin operation down to one line with xargs
15:52:44 <tab-complete> you can't put megabytes of stuff on the command line
15:52:58 <tab-complete> xargs will split a line up for you automatically if it wouldn't all fit
15:53:13 <CakeProphet> "megabytes of stuff" as in the text of the actual command or the data being processed?
15:53:19 <tab-complete> the text of the command
15:53:26 <tab-complete> can easily happen in some cases where you'd want to use xargs
15:53:28 <CakeProphet> ah. well yeah. It'd be unwieldy too.
15:53:48 <CakeProphet> at the point it's likely wise to switch to a script.
15:53:53 <tab-complete> `ls | xargs echo
15:53:59 <tab-complete> wait, hackego isn't here
15:54:05 <tab-complete> can you see what that would do, though
15:54:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, what happened to HackEgo?
15:54:34 <AnMaster> <Gregor> AnMaster: Even the universally-reviled movement 2? :P <-- hm?
15:54:49 <AnMaster> Gregor, I liked the second movement preview yes
15:54:50 <fizzie> You can put only four kilobytes into exec's arguments safely in a POSIX system (POSIX_ARG_MAX == 4096), though many allow more.
15:55:02 <tab-complete> the trick with xargs echo is that it replaces all newlines by spaces
15:55:16 <AnMaster> Gregor, perhaps the ending of it need some work. Very sudden
15:55:22 <AnMaster> of course that could be used as an effect
15:55:25 -!- HackEgo has joined.
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15:55:33 <Gregor> AnMaster: The ending was simply that I haven't written any more yet :P
15:55:50 <Gregor> I have a whole minor section in that part, then back to the major theme, but I haven't written it all.
15:56:05 <AnMaster> Gregor, ah, it could be intentional, hard to tell
15:56:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, much better than the op11 previews btw
15:56:43 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought there wasn't an op11.
15:56:51 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: There wasn't an op12.
15:57:02 <Gregor> AnMaster: The Op. 11 previews I ended up changing almost everything between the last preview and what I decided was "done" :P
15:57:02 <fizzie> According to "getconf ARG_MAX", my system lets you put two megabytes of stuff in.
15:57:33 <AnMaster> Gregor, I didn't listen to all. Just the last string<whatever> version
15:57:44 <AnMaster> Gregor, couldn't tell which was the current version
15:57:47 <Gregor> OH
15:58:02 <Gregor> The String Quartet WIPPs are bad :P
15:58:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, LINE_MAX is 2048.
15:58:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, hm haven't listened to final op11 recently
15:58:34 * AnMaster does so
15:59:11 <Gregor> I'm thinkin' of calling Opus 13 "Three Works in Three", since all three movements ended up being in three due to having been split from one overenthusiastic work originally. The subparts could be "Scherzo in Three", "Nocturne in Three" and "Finale in Three"
15:59:31 <Gregor> Although having a nocturne in the middle of a work is kinda weird I guess ...
15:59:42 <AnMaster> Gregor, too much disharmonious in op11 for my taste. It is technically good, just not my taste
16:00:12 <CakeProphet> does anyone use Rhythmbox? Know how to set it up so it doesn't do all that "start-up silently as a notification icon thing (dunno the technical term for it)"
16:00:17 -!- relet has joined.
16:00:23 <CakeProphet> What would be the "starting in the system tray" in Windows-speak.
16:00:26 -!- tab-complete has changed nick to ais523.
16:00:26 <CakeProphet> -the
16:01:16 <Deewiant> "Taskbar notification area", actually.
16:01:29 <AnMaster> Gregor, btw you write that you aren't going to use zee3 for the game. But what about zee1? I can't imagine that one fitting either
16:01:53 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh btw, how is the game zee coming along? it is such a cool idea I hope the answer is "very nicely"
16:02:12 <AnMaster> Gregor, is there anything playable yet?
16:02:24 <Gregor> The answer is "eternally stalled argh getting storylines is annoying". But as of yesterday I have an idea for a storyline, which I can get photos of and maybe have something playable in two-three weeks.
16:02:28 <AnMaster> I mean, even if buggy and only half complete. Some screenshots perhaps?
16:02:40 <AnMaster> Gregor, wasn't it a maze game it said?
16:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, what's this feather thing I've heard about?
16:02:53 <ais523> seriously, don't ask
16:02:57 <Gregor> AnMaster: Sort of ... it's a "maze" of images.
16:03:19 <Gregor> AnMaster: It doesn't really fit any category of games, so I'm calling it an "image-based maze game" because that's the closest I can get :P
16:03:37 <AnMaster> Gregor, okay. Any mockup images or anything? I mean, just to see what you mean
16:03:41 <AnMaster> sketches or such perhaps
16:04:33 <ais523> Gregor: sounds like a puzzle game to me, genre-wize
16:04:35 <ais523> *genre-wise
16:04:39 <Gregor> AnMaster: http://codu.org/projects/zee/test/zee.html
16:04:40 <ais523> it's quite a varied genre
16:04:48 <Gregor> ais523: Yeah, it's broadly within the genre "puzzle games" no doubt.
16:05:10 <Gregor> AnMaster: That's just a test of the zooming features, mind you.
16:05:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, does it need the plugin? I don't have flash. and won't install it either
16:05:23 <Gregor> Only needs that to play music online.
16:05:29 <Gregor> Which is pointless, so feel free to ignore it.
16:05:50 <AnMaster> Gregor, ah high res image behind it
16:05:50 <AnMaster> nice
16:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, is it one of the things Man Was Not Meant To Kno.
16:06:10 <AnMaster> hm with an accurate lens model and accurate positioning and orientation info of camera you should be able to reconstruct a 3D model with enough photos from different locations
16:06:10 <ais523> thinking about it drives me insane, so possibly
16:06:26 <Gregor> AnMaster: ... yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah.
16:06:50 <Gregor> AnMaster: Good thing I have exactly zero need or desire to do that.
16:06:50 <ais523> and I've got sufficiently good at not thinking about it that I can't even give a remotely accurate description without concentrating
16:06:55 <ais523> but it's an esolang, anyway
16:06:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, what *is* it?
16:06:58 <AnMaster> Gregor, no it was just general musing :P
16:07:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Loosely?
16:07:12 <ais523> one that isn't speccedyet
16:07:14 <ais523> *specced yet
16:07:18 <ais523> but it involves retroactive changes
16:07:29 <AnMaster> Gregor, would be nice to see the extrapolate thingy
16:07:46 <AnMaster> Gregor, also I hit a bug in the software. It is impossible to enhance infinitely ;)
16:07:50 -!- coppro has joined.
16:07:59 <Gregor> AnMaster: SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF.
16:08:18 <Gregor> AnMaster: I have some code for extrapolation, but it's really just "push on this square when at least at zoom level X, get a new photo"
16:08:24 <AnMaster> Gregor, I don't believe in that *runs*
16:08:54 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, if you write a spec, any updates will have to have lower version numbers and dates to the first version
16:09:15 <ais523> I like that idea
16:09:17 <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway with rendering a 3D model you could do the infinite zoom stuff.
16:09:21 <ais523> actually, every version should have the same date
16:09:46 <Gregor> AnMaster: You are not the first person to suggest it. It's amazing how I make a game idea that's just BARELY accomplishable, so people say "you should do this utterly unaccomplishable thing instead"
16:10:18 <AnMaster> Gregor, no I suggest that will be easier
16:10:31 <AnMaster> Gregor, depends on how good you are at 3D modelling and such of course
16:11:19 <Gregor> AnMaster: Do you want to make a 3D model that's A) photorealistic and B) sufficiently detailed that you can zoom up to just short of looking at the atoms?
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16:11:46 <AnMaster> Gregor, okay better and easy suggestion: There should be a way to pan without having to reset. I just missed something at the edge of the image and now there is no possible way to pan to it
16:12:14 <AnMaster> Gregor, it seems impossible to zoom on stuff near the edge anyway it ends up a bit inwards
16:12:21 <Gregor> I agree. I will add it to my TODO list.
16:12:35 <AnMaster> or at least rather tricky to do that
16:12:45 <Gregor> It always zooms such that wherever your cursor is remains the same, so you would have to click the very rightmost pixel to zoom on the very rightmost edge.
16:13:00 <AnMaster> Gregor, yep, somewhat tricky
16:13:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, so it's like TwoDucks?
16:13:12 <ais523> vaguely, but a lot better
16:13:24 <AnMaster> Gregor, this thing is 114 dpi, so very tricky
16:13:26 <ais523> for one thing, it isn't uncomputable, so in theory you can implement it
16:13:34 <Gregor> Now with More Ducks
16:13:37 <ais523> in practice, though, I go mad when I try
16:14:05 <Phantom_Hoover> How, approximately, does it work?
16:14:09 <Gregor> AnMaster: Part of that is just "don't put clues at the edge of the photo", the other part is panning, I don't think there's some more intelligent method of zooming.
16:14:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, true
16:14:52 <AnMaster> Gregor, what will the goal be? finding a certain image? solving a crime with clues from the images?
16:15:08 <Gregor> AnMaster: Solve a crime by finding clues (or catching the perpetrator red-handed) within the image.
16:16:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, hm needs higher res images. There is some small yellow thing on the back of one of the road signs. Can't zoom in to see what it is
16:16:40 <AnMaster> ;)
16:16:45 <Gregor> SUSPENSION
16:16:45 <Gregor> OF
16:16:48 <Gregor> DISBELIEF
16:17:03 <AnMaster> Gregor, no no. I meant You need very high res pictures for the "real" version
16:17:07 <AnMaster> rather than just this test
16:17:28 <cpressey> ais523: You just have to visualize it from the 5th dimension, is all...
16:17:41 <Gregor> AnMaster: That picutre is about as high-res as we can realistically expect to get.
16:17:41 <cpressey> Actually I don't know what you were talking about, and I assumed Feather.
16:17:49 <ais523> cpressey: suprisingly that isn't the hard part
16:17:54 <Gregor> It's something like 12MP
16:18:01 <AnMaster> Gregor, idea: you can use multiple images. Like one taken while zoomed out. Then zoom in with the optical zoom to take images of the different parts.
16:18:06 <ais523> anyway, Feather's going to get a worse reputation than MAGENTA at this rate
16:18:09 <AnMaster> so you can switch between them as needed
16:18:16 <AnMaster> ais523, MAGENTA?
16:18:19 <AnMaster> never heard of it
16:18:23 <Gregor> AnMaster: That picture is a stitching of a bunch of images zoomed maximally on my camera, and does exactly that.
16:18:24 <ais523> AnMaster: an allegedly cursed esolang
16:18:24 <AnMaster> anyway should make food
16:18:32 <ais523> I don't know if the wiki has an article about it
16:18:34 <ais523> but it isn't mine
16:18:34 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh
16:18:38 <Deewiant> MAGENTA, not Magenta?
16:18:42 <cpressey> Now I need to restart my computer or the BotNet's gonna get me, sez Microsoft.
16:18:43 <Gregor> AnMaster: If I had better zoom, I could zoom farther I suppose, and take a crapload of pictures :P
16:18:50 -!- cpressey has left (?).
16:18:50 <Deewiant> I recall a Magenta that matches the description but I don't think it was all-caps
16:18:52 <ais523> Deewiant: not sure if it's in allcaps
16:19:05 <Deewiant> Doesn't seem to be: http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/Magenta
16:19:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, hm I didn't see any stitches
16:19:27 <ais523> anyway, Magenta has pretty much opposite design goals from INTERCAL, and ends up looking rather similar as a result
16:19:30 <AnMaster> Gregor, so no parallax I guess
16:19:33 <Gregor> AnMaster: There's one or two places where it misstitched and is noticeable, otherwise it did a pretty good job.
16:19:42 <AnMaster> Gregor, hugin I presume?
16:19:46 <Gregor> Yup
16:19:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, I *hate* Geocities.
16:20:07 <Phantom_Hoover> So much esolang stuff was on it.
16:20:11 <AnMaster> Gregor, idea: you know about enfuse right?
16:20:22 <AnMaster> Gregor, so have a "magic" denoise button as well
16:20:25 <AnMaster> would fit the theme
16:20:53 <AnMaster> Gregor, enfuse can average multiple pictures to reduce noise. You would need a tripod however
16:21:12 <AnMaster> since parallax there would give you weird stuff
16:21:14 <Gregor> I have a tripod. I didn't realize enfuse could do that, but that's pretty much awesome.
16:21:56 <Phantom_Hoover> What are you talking about now?
16:21:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, in *theory* you could rotate the camera half a pixel or such and then actually interpolate a higher res. IIRC they do that kind of stuff in telescopes and such
16:22:12 <AnMaster> Gregor, probably not feasible with normal camera and such though
16:22:28 <Gregor> Not so much :P
16:22:33 <Gregor> What I really need is an autotripod.
16:22:39 <AnMaster> Gregor, hm?
16:22:41 <Gregor> That would just do all the rotations and snap pictures for me.
16:22:45 <Gregor> Not that such a thing exists :P
16:22:48 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh I built on in lego
16:22:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, based on this idea: http://www.philohome.com/panobot2/panobot2.htm
16:22:57 <Gregor> Awesome, ship it.
16:23:01 <AnMaster> Gregor, doesn't do up/down
16:23:06 <Gregor> Well foo!
16:23:09 <AnMaster> Gregor, also it is very limited to my camera
16:23:20 <Gregor> :P
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16:23:36 <Gregor> How high-quality is your camera? MP and optical zoom level?
16:23:43 <fizzie> Enfuse's averaging is very nice for us people with a compact digicam with a tiny, horribly noisy sensor.
16:24:03 <AnMaster> Gregor, 9 MP. 28-200 optical zoom in 35 mm equiv. RAW files are 12 bits / channel
16:24:21 <Gregor> Well, YOU'RE definitely taking photos for ZEE :P
16:24:24 <AnMaster> Gregor, Minolta Dimage A2
16:24:34 <AnMaster> Gregor, a rather old "segment below DSLR" camera
16:24:45 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh and it has noise issues. Plus a few dead pixels
16:24:53 <AnMaster> showing it's age
16:25:03 <fizzie> I have this Lumix DMC-FZ8 cam from approximately the same category, but no lego tripod-bot.
16:25:16 <AnMaster> the noise stuff have only started getting noticeable the last 2 years or such
16:25:20 <Gregor> Without a lego tripod-bot, how do you even live with yourself?
16:25:26 <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway my lego thing needs a sturdy table
16:25:32 <AnMaster> it does not mount on my tripod, too heavy
16:25:50 <AnMaster> I have yet to come up with a working solution for that
16:26:25 <fizzie> Possibly a hundred-kilogram tripod? A joy to move around!
16:26:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, here is a self-enhancing image of the lego thingy: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/panobot/panobot_1433.jpg
16:26:37 <AnMaster> that is, progressive jpeg
16:27:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, I have a ball head tripod.
16:28:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, but the screw hole on the camera is not centered in any direction relative the no-parallax point
16:28:21 <AnMaster> way right of lens and way too far back
16:28:38 <AnMaster> Gregor, fizzie: tell me if that image loads
16:28:44 <AnMaster> if not I'm going to upload it elsewhere
16:28:48 <fizzie> Just use four tripods like that and build a table surface that you can mount on such at every corner.
16:28:50 <Gregor> E_WORKSFORME
16:28:57 <AnMaster> Gregor, hm
16:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, what does it do other than rotate?
16:29:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, push the trigger using pneumatics
16:29:36 <AnMaster> and of course it use a rotation sensor to space the photos roughly equally
16:29:37 <fizzie> I didn't quite wait for the whole image, but it did seem to be loading. (Am on a phone again.)
16:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, that's pretty cool.
16:30:10 <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway if I take photos it is you who is going to stitch. My computers are no longer up to the task
16:30:13 <AnMaster> :P
16:30:22 <Gregor> Fair enough
16:30:30 <AnMaster> Gregor, you will get 93 MB tiff even with only 8 bits per channel
16:30:33 <fizzie> AnMaster: Next, extended exposure-bracketing using a lot of twiddling with the camera's control buttons.
16:30:43 <AnMaster> for a least zoom 360° pano
16:31:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, actually it is a wheel. And I did consider turning that. However I think I'm almost out of lego after that thing
16:31:21 <AnMaster> considering how sturdy it is internally
16:32:12 <AnMaster> Gregor, anyway, let me find link to panoramas I uploaded. Do you want to zoomed to 30% variant or the full zoom?
16:32:29 <Gregor> I want to go to work :P
16:32:32 <Gregor> Baheeee :P
16:32:36 <AnMaster> ah
16:32:36 <AnMaster> cya
16:33:11 <fizzie> I used to have this very old Canon two-megapixels-or-a-bit-less eats-AA-batteries-like-an-electric-horse camera, which was otherwise utterly unremarkable, except that if you plugged the USB cable in, gphoto2 could remote-control it partially (and the proprietary windows app could even change the image-taking settings).
16:33:12 <AnMaster> Gregor, full res: http://omploader.org/vNHAyNw scaled to 30%: http://omploader.org/vNGx0Mw
16:33:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, mine supports that by "costs extra" windows app
16:33:42 <AnMaster> iirc
16:33:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh and there is a 4 pin connector for remote trigger as well
16:34:15 <AnMaster> no clue what the different pins do
16:34:28 <fizzie> Heh, that's even worse. At least if the app is free, you can always usbdump it and reverse-engineer.
16:35:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, there was some app on linux for an older model of the same series but apparently the protocol is completely different for the new model
16:36:50 <fizzie> This new one only does USB-storage and then that printer-pictbridge-whatever. The boring.
16:37:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is another strange thing, they ship an extra iron core that you are instructed to put on the usb cable if you use the remote control feature
16:38:16 <AnMaster> as in, you don't need it for just the usb storage feature I guess
16:38:37 <AnMaster> makes no sense to me
16:38:58 <fizzie> Uh, curious.
16:39:51 <ais523> AnMaster: is that one of those iron rings that you clip around a cable?
16:40:04 <ais523> they're designed to dampen high-frequency interference
16:40:10 <fizzie> Maybe the remote-control protocol has a self-destruct command and they don't want interference accidentally triggering it.
16:40:17 <AnMaster> ais523, yes
16:40:18 <Phantom_Hoover> This sounds like audio woo.
16:40:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Like those $500 cables on Amazon.
16:40:34 <ais523> which is only caused by high-frequency circuits; I can imagine that a remote control circuit is high-frequency but nothing else on there is
16:40:35 <Phantom_Hoover> But it might work in this case.
16:40:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm actually you are supposed to put it on remote trigger cable if you buy that extra instead
16:40:51 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: oh, they are needed, they prevent high-frequency noise reducing your bandwidth
16:41:00 <ais523> but a fair price for those things is a few pennies, or cents
16:41:17 <Phantom_Hoover> But the remote uses IR doesn't it?
16:41:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, on a camera? no
16:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, radio?
16:41:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, please read the whole bit instead
16:41:40 <AnMaster> *faceplam*
16:41:48 <AnMaster> palm*
16:42:10 <fizzie> It's a cable. It's not wireless at all.
16:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Ohh.
16:42:23 <fizzie> There are IR-remotable cameras, though.
16:42:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:42:44 <fizzie> There's a N900 app to control some of them.
16:42:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is a bad idea though, Since CCDs pick up IR. Just aim a remote at your mobile camera and check
16:43:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, it would thus interfere with the image taking
16:44:20 <AnMaster> at least in theory
16:44:23 <fizzie> You can put a IR filter in if you want, perhaps.
16:45:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, they tend to reduce image quality in the visible spectrum as well to some degree iirc?
16:45:47 <fizzie> Not sure about quality (noticeably), but light levels in general at least.
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16:52:51 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
16:53:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover"
16:53:28 <fizzie> I do like the pretty large zoom in the FZ8; it's 36-432mm in 35mm-equiv terms, and doesn't have any especial problems at the far end. A full-sphere panorama from that would have very many pixels indeed, though as a mortal I couldn't imagine taking one manually.
16:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, given up completely?
16:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Damn, there's no way to play on "oerjan".
16:54:48 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you know i'm not very fond of people who won't even let me _give up_ peacefully
16:54:59 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
16:55:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It was fun while it lasted.
16:55:21 <fizzie> "What's that amulet doing there at the end?" was my first thought after seeing oerjan's greeting.
16:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Too much Nethack?
16:56:30 <fizzie> I haven't played any in months; I guess it was just some sort of flashback.
16:56:36 <cpressey> Syntax error, line 553: Mismatched amulet.
16:56:45 <cpressey> No, wait.
16:56:48 <cpressey> Missing closing amulet.
16:56:58 <cpressey> Mismatched ARMOR.
16:57:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, let's make that into a language!
16:57:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Somehow!
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17:03:30 <AnMaster> huh, "foo bar" -> "foo foo"; "foobar" -> "foobfo"
17:03:34 <AnMaster> I wonder what is going on here
17:04:37 <AnMaster> this thing is supposed to echo back the thins you send. Not echo back some garbage
17:05:24 <fizzie> Overwriting with "foo" (or the string itself) starting from index 4?
17:05:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, well not as easy. Sometimes it seems to be from index 5
17:05:48 <fizzie> But not changing the length.
17:05:51 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:05:53 <fizzie> Heh.
17:06:01 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:06:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, and sometimes it changes the length too
17:06:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, okay now it just did tetetetet for "test test test"
17:07:10 <AnMaster> fizzie, at least it seems to do the same thing every time for a given string
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17:09:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, valgrind on the app finds nothing :/
17:10:31 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: As a bonus, "mismatched armor" sounds like a medieval fashion faux pas.
17:10:35 <AnMaster> hm
17:10:53 <fizzie> So it's a perfectly valid algorithm, just not the same you'd want it to be.
17:10:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not sure if it is the usb ir towering failing to echo correctly or something in the software
17:11:01 <AnMaster> or it could be in the kernel driver
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17:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, so invalid backslash escapes would generate "A %c can't stand next to a throne!"
17:12:03 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that seems a very nethackish error message
17:12:07 <fizzie> If it really does always the same thing for the same string, it's probably not random hardware failure. Could be deterministic hardware issue, of course.
17:12:55 <fizzie> Screen already has those nethacky error messages, they're occasionally amusing too.
17:13:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, really?
17:13:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Example?
17:14:39 <fizzie> I'm trying to think of something erroneous here.
17:16:06 <Deewiant> Woof!!
17:16:43 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/nethack.txt has the full list.
17:17:14 <Deewiant> Oh, those.
17:17:32 <fizzie> First is the original message, second the translation, in the nethacktrans array.
17:18:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, what about mismatched {}?
17:19:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, erroneous }s are easy.
17:19:24 <Phantom_Hoover> "You fall into a pool of water! You sink. You drown..."
17:20:01 <Phantom_Hoover> (Note: I have never lived for long enough in Nethack to die from drowning.)
17:20:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Hence the probable inaccuracy of this message.
17:20:49 <Deewiant> You don't need to live long; just drink from a fountain until it results in a sufficiently well placed pool of water
17:20:50 <fizzie> {"Aborted because of window size change.", "KAABLAMM!!! You triggered a land mine!"},
17:21:00 <fizzie> That one's a bit arbitrary.
17:21:19 <Deewiant> It makes sense if you increased the window size
17:21:24 <Deewiant> Not so much for a decrease
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17:24:38 <CakeProphet> ...I wonder if you can prove that circular reasoning can be logically valid.
17:24:42 <CakeProphet> I mean... look at recursion.
17:24:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Is that circular reasoning?
17:25:09 <CakeProphet> ...not that I can tell. There is no reasoning yet. Merely a proposition.
17:25:19 <Deewiant> Recursion isn't circular unless it's infinite
17:25:26 <CakeProphet> well, right.
17:25:38 <CakeProphet> I was just reading Descartes foundationalism stuff
17:25:43 <CakeProphet> which seems based on a circular premise.
17:26:26 <AnMaster> there is some strange macro _IOW on linux. I can't find the docs for it
17:26:29 <AnMaster> ioctl related
17:26:29 <CakeProphet> so... perhaps if there is a condition somewhere, it could be proved that the circularity of the reasoning is defensible because it rests on a non-circular termination condition.
17:26:31 <AnMaster> that much I know
17:26:43 <CakeProphet> but it's merely a thought. I haven't taken any real effort to find this condition.
17:26:52 <AnMaster> man ioctl doesn't have it
17:27:07 <Deewiant> Google does.
17:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> A quick Googling gives http://h30097.www3.hp.com/docs/dev_doc/DOCUMENTATION/HTML/DDK_R2/DOCS/HTML/MAN/MAN9/0029___R.HTM
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17:27:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless you have moral objections to Googling.
17:27:52 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is tru64
17:27:53 <AnMaster> not linux
17:28:16 <fizzie> It's in the headers, though; I've seen it.
17:28:18 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, it's a clue.
17:28:32 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
17:28:38 <Gregor-W> HEY GUYS LIEK WOOH
17:28:56 <fizzie> What do you need the macro for, though?
17:28:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes but it's usage doesn't match what is documented there
17:29:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, to debug this faulty code using it
17:29:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Bleurgh, nested macros.
17:29:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't have the strength to track it down.
17:29:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, some other options to valgrind revealed an valgrind error on a line containing that
17:29:43 <AnMaster> ioctl(tty->fd, _IOW('u', 0xc8, int), timeout);
17:30:02 <AnMaster> tty->fd is a char device, not a tty though confusingly
17:30:06 <fizzie> asm-generic/ioctl.h
17:30:16 <fizzie> It's a bit complex though.
17:30:19 <AnMaster> /* used to create numbers */
17:30:26 <AnMaster> is all the docs in my copy of that file
17:30:54 <Gregor-W> Sounds like enough docs for anybody.
17:30:58 <AnMaster> -_-
17:31:12 <fizzie> Basically it's an or of the involved numbers, some bitshifts, and sizeof the type involved too.
17:31:27 <cpressey> CakeProphet: The great thing about circular reasoning is that it's circular.
17:32:05 <fizzie> I don't think it should involve any memory references or anything, it just combines those arguments into a number.
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17:32:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, Address 0xfa is not stack'd, malloc'd or (recently) free'd is the error. But it doesn't seem to be passed anywhere
17:32:48 <AnMaster> oh wait
17:32:53 <AnMaster> that is the parameter. Which is an integer
17:32:56 <AnMaster> not a pointer
17:32:57 <AnMaster> wtf
17:33:24 <fizzie> Yes, _IOW yields a ioctl-related id-y number, not a pointer.
17:33:36 <fizzie> Something must be confused there.
17:33:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes it is the timeout that equals to 0xfa
17:33:59 <fizzie> Ah.
17:34:15 <fizzie> But you're usually supposed to pass in a pointer to a value.
17:34:23 <cpressey1> There's something unwholesome about telling VMWare and VirtualBox what the guest OS is.
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17:34:39 <fizzie> &timeout in your case.
17:34:54 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, AFAIK it just affects the default settings on VirtualBox.
17:34:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, should it be hm?
17:35:16 <fizzie> Well, it depends on the ioctl really.
17:35:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, well what is the ioctl _IOW('u', 0xc8, int) I wonder
17:35:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, it has the value 0x400475C8 according to gdb
17:35:58 <AnMaster> but hm
17:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Bye, everybody!
17:36:08 <fizzie> The 0xc8'th ioctl in group 'u' that will take an int-sized argument.
17:36:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can't find docs for this driver in fact
17:36:29 <AnMaster> not as man page at least
17:36:43 <fizzie> I do believe it's possible to make a ioctl-handling driver that will treat the third argument as a raw value.
17:37:05 <fizzie> But usually it is an address, in that case pointing to an int.
17:37:36 <fizzie> It could be just that valgrind assumes the third parameter is always an address.
17:38:05 <fizzie> (While your screwy driver perhaps doesn't treat it as one.)
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17:38:36 <fizzie> My ioctl man page does say:
17:38:39 <fizzie> The second argument is a device-dependent request code. The third argument is an untyped
17:38:42 <fizzie> pointer to memory. It's traditionally char *argp (from the days before void * was valid
17:38:45 <fizzie> C), and will be so named for this discussion.
17:39:24 <fizzie> But I guess nothing should prevent the driver from treating the value of the address as an integer to pass.
17:39:36 <fizzie> It's not good behaviour though.
17:40:22 <fizzie> (It might also be impossible in some systems, if the kernel handles copying the request-sized memory block from userland to the driver.)
17:40:26 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm perhaps
17:40:32 <AnMaster> I'm checking the driver source atm
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17:41:19 <fizzie> &timeout would probably quiet down valgrind, but perhaps you have a special case(tm) there.
17:41:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, how does one find it in the driver I wonder
17:42:05 <AnMaster> I mean I can't fix 0xc8 or 0x400475C8 in there
17:42:33 <AnMaster> and the only timeout I can find is a module parameter
17:42:37 <fizzie> Not sure about that; I haven't done much driver-fiddling. One would think 0xc8 would be there somewhere.
17:42:54 <fizzie> Possibly in some include file though.
17:43:18 <fizzie> Is this a mainline kernel driver, or something stranger?
17:43:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, mainline
17:43:38 <AnMaster> drivers/usb/misc/legousbtower.c in case
17:43:42 <AnMaster> in this case*
17:44:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, any help to figure out ioctls would be helpful
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17:44:30 <AnMaster> err yeah tautology club next
17:44:34 <AnMaster> but you know what I mean
17:44:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, hi
17:44:58 <pikhq> Yo.
17:46:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: " * - added ioctl functionality to set timeouts" in the changelog commentary, that's probably it. Can't say I know where it's defined, though; it should be in the struct file_operations tower_fops, as a ioctl member. That'd be the logical place.
17:46:52 <AnMaster> 2003 hm
17:46:54 <Gregor-W> pikhq: Moo
17:47:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think that may be from before mainlining
17:47:10 <cpressey> root
17:48:20 <fizzie> Perhaps they removed the ioctl at some point (or replaced it with a sysfs node or something) and didn't bother to update that changelog, or the source code you have there.
17:48:28 <fizzie> (Unless the code's from a different source.)
17:48:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I checked against last 2.4 variant
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17:48:46 <AnMaster> it has ioctl stuff in the fops thingy
17:49:21 <fizzie> It's even possible that the timeouts it's talking about are those which are now only available as module parameters.
17:50:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, which makes no sense
17:51:17 <fizzie> It is a bit awkward, since you can only change them at load-time, because of that 0 there. (Otherwise there'd be a sysfs node for it.)
17:52:04 <fizzie> It's also a bit strange that they haven't made those sysfs-changeable, because the driver code looks like it'd work just fine even if the timeouts are changed without notifying the module, like they are if you sysfs-export them.
17:52:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, which zero?
17:53:18 <fizzie> The third parameter of module_param().
17:53:22 <AnMaster> // LegoUSB doesn't work with select(), so just set a read
17:53:22 <AnMaster> // timeout and then later check to see if the read timed out
17:53:22 <AnMaster> // without reading data.
17:53:23 <AnMaster> hm
17:53:37 <AnMaster> however there is a mention of implementing poll there
17:53:46 <AnMaster> I wonder if I could switch to the code for the serial tower
17:54:01 <fizzie> It's a usual permissions-mask, and if you put a non-zero value there, the kernel will automagically export that parameter via sysfs and make it modifiable.
17:54:21 <AnMaster> hm
17:54:35 <fizzie> Was that comment from your non-working source code?
17:55:27 <fizzie> I guess so; I don't think there's // comments in the driver.
17:55:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, indeed
17:55:53 <fizzie> In that case it's possible that it should be updated to use non-blocking IO with a timeout. It looks as if the current driver should support that.
17:56:03 <AnMaster> fizzie, dead upstream mostly
17:56:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, so yeah, I have some local patches to this
17:56:27 <fizzie> Well, like the read_timeout module_param says: "Some legacy software expects blocking reads to time out." Yours is one of them, apparently.
17:56:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes but it wants to set it's own time out!
17:56:57 <fizzie> It seems to have read_timeout enabled by default (at 200 ms), so if that value is okay for the code, you could possibly just throw out the ioctl.
17:57:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, it wants 250 ms
17:57:18 <AnMaster> in this case
17:57:22 <AnMaster> sometimes other values
17:57:52 <cpressey> AnMaster: VMWare has wronged me one too many times, so I'm trying VirtualBox. Thought you might be interested to know, since you mentioned it to me.
17:58:32 <AnMaster> mhm
17:58:58 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, hm? "* [Gregor-W] (836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip. proton.research.microsoft.com/ - htt"
17:59:01 <AnMaster> what?
17:59:09 <AnMaster> microsoft?
17:59:17 <Gregor-W> Muahahahaha
17:59:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Heh. Well, if you want the code to be able to use those timeouts it specifies, you can also patch the kernel, and replace the ioctl with a sysfs write.
17:59:51 <fizzie> Gregor's a microsoftean spy on the esoteric language marketplace, huh?!
18:00:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, well. I'm probably going to try to replace the code with select() since that is available for the serial tower code
18:00:33 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, btw those panos: <AnMaster> Gregor, full res: http://omploader.org/vNHAyNw scaled to 30%: http://omploader.org/vNGx0Mw
18:00:42 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, would probably crash IE though :P
18:00:52 <Gregor-W> Everything crashes IE *shrugs*
18:01:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, yeah the full res one is a 12 MB jpg
18:01:07 <AnMaster> progressive
18:01:57 <Gregor-W> 360-degree panoramas are always weird lookin' :P
18:02:26 <fizzie> Not if you look at them with a real panorama-viewer that does projection-correction to the "usual" way (and only shows a tiny region of it, of course).
18:02:41 <Gregor-W> Really the "tiny region of it" part is the whole fix :P
18:03:12 <fizzie> There's more than just cropping a rectangular region out of it.
18:03:50 <fizzie> Or rather, with proper projection mangling you can crop a larger region of the panorama out and have it still look "normal" than if you just crop.
18:04:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: Incidentally, was there a photo of your actual lego construction anywhere?
18:07:00 <ais523> Gregor-W: back in the days of IE4, I wrote a webpage which was just a frameset, with each of the frames the webpage itself
18:07:12 <ais523> if you tried to open it in IE4, it not only crashed the browser, but also took out the Start toolbar
18:07:16 <ais523> with no obvious way to get it back
18:07:50 <ais523> even more fun, it popped up a dialog box "internet explorer is using a lot of memory, do you want to terminate it?" but the same thing happened whether you pressed yes or no
18:08:31 <fizzie> Doesn't killing the explorer.exe proecess (or whatever the name was) usually fix missing desktop components.
18:08:34 <AnMaster> fizzie, well it seems to work
18:09:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes a few. Site may be slow: http://pubacc.wilcox-tech.com/~anmaster/panobot/
18:10:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, on NT based systems certainly, less sure about 9x
18:10:32 <AnMaster> well sometimes you manually have to start it againm
18:10:34 <AnMaster> again*
18:10:36 <ais523> fizzie: in NT-based systems, it respawns
18:10:43 <ais523> in 9x, it doesn't; the solution would be to /run/ explorer.exe
18:10:47 <AnMaster> ais523, didn't always under XP for me
18:10:54 <ais523> but you'd better hope you have a widget on what's left of the desktop to let you run it
18:10:55 <AnMaster> I sometimes had to run it manually even on XP
18:11:14 <Deewiant> win+r worked
18:11:32 <AnMaster> ais523, oh wait, 9x didn't have process manager did it?
18:12:10 <ais523> not connected to control-alt-del, IIRC
18:12:13 <fizzie> There was some sort of task manager. I can't recall whether it could run things or not.
18:12:35 <fizzie> And it didn't always appear at all.
18:13:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I assume you will love this crazy indention for "one level": one tab + one space
18:13:52 <AnMaster> quite wtf
18:13:57 <ais523> yep, I love it
18:14:13 <ais523> for two levels, is it tab tab space space, or tab space tab space?
18:14:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it's tab tab
18:14:47 <AnMaster> no space
18:15:02 <ais523> sounds like a typo when making the function
18:15:08 <ais523> it's pretty easy to indent to tab+space by mistake
18:15:11 <AnMaster> ais523, it is consistent in the entire file
18:15:13 <ais523> and then the editor preserves your indentation
18:15:23 <AnMaster> ais523, and some other files
18:15:28 <AnMaster> not all other files, but several
18:15:33 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, ctrl-alt-del on 9x spawned the task manager directly, not the lock-screen/task-manager/etc. menu of NT. Though sometimes it just spawned the "system is busy" bluescreen, from which you could theoretically resume waiting or reboot. Not that those options always worked either.
18:15:52 <AnMaster> fizzie, wasn't the task manager very limited on 9x?
18:15:59 <AnMaster> I mean, no load tab or such
18:16:04 <ais523> fizzie: no, ctrl-alt-del on 95 (at least) picked an application using various heuristics, and asked you whether you wanted to kill it or not
18:16:20 <AnMaster> ais523, no it showed a box to select which one iirc
18:16:26 <ais523> that was 98
18:16:26 <AnMaster> or was that 98?
18:16:29 <AnMaster> heh
18:17:02 <fizzie> The 98 app-killer box is probably the "task manager" I remember. I doubt it had "run" options.
18:17:53 <fizzie> I should have some VMs to test these things on, wouldn't have to rely on fallible memory.
18:18:36 <AnMaster> bbiab
18:20:23 <fizzie> According to Wikipedia:
18:20:27 <fizzie> Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows Me, temporarily halts the entire system, and presents a window which lists currently running processes, and can be used to notify them that they should end, or, when they don't respond, kill them. The user can press Control-Alt-Delete again to perform a soft reboot.
18:20:57 <fizzie> And it's win 3.1 which asks you if you want to kill the "current" task.
18:22:16 <fizzie> There's also the is-busy screen I remembered: "In Windows 9x, pressing the combination a second time if the process listing has not appeared will display a blue screen from which the user can reboot the system by pressing the combination a third time; other times the system restarts on the second Ctrl-Alt-Delete combination."
18:22:40 <ais523> fizzie: ah, wow I'm showing my age :)
18:26:23 <fizzie> It sure is good to have an encyclopedia which knows in extreme detail what happens on the three-finger salute on various Win versions. (For XP, it matter whether the computer is part of a domain and whether the welcome screen is enabled.)
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18:57:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, ais523: I remember pre-OSX doing the "guessing process" bit as well
18:58:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, iirc it usually failed to restart with ctrl-alt-del
19:03:56 <fizzie> Hmn, I think I've had a fair amount of success restarting with command-control-powerbutton. The "force-quit" key (command-option-esc, was it?) wasn't always so lucky.
19:06:02 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:08:07 <fizzie> Also for some reason I have the phrase "komento-optio-omena" (lit. "command-option-apple") stuck in my head, even though it makes no sense, since the command key *is* the apple key.
19:08:47 <Gregor-W> http://omploader.org/vNHE3dQ
19:09:01 <Gregor-W> Sometimes peoples' grammar just confuse me.
19:09:17 <Gregor-W> *confuseS hyuk hyuk
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19:19:40 <cpressey> So I find I am thinking about a Feather-like language, God help me.
19:20:10 <cpressey> Only thing I have so far is that, at the end of the program, there must be some instructions to create the inital program and send it back in time.
19:22:01 <cpressey> Sort of a self-quine.
19:22:39 <ais523> cpressey: that happens with Feather too
19:22:44 <ais523> for much the same reason
19:22:48 <ais523> only, an infinite number of times
19:23:03 <ais523> well, it happens n times where n is finite, but any time its value would become relevant, it's retroactively increased
19:23:08 <ais523> thus it's effectively infinite
19:25:13 <cpressey> Or, a fixed point, of sorts?
19:25:51 <ais523> yep, sort-of like that
19:25:51 <cpressey> Although it sounds like nothing's fixed, there...
19:26:04 <cpressey> broken point.
19:26:26 <ais523> haha
19:27:01 <cpressey> Or do mathematicians call those "fixpoints" to disambiguate them from fixed-point arithmetic?
19:27:13 <cpressey> Cos I know I've seen that term.
19:27:49 -!- augur has joined.
19:27:51 <cpressey> Next I'm going to get into recursive sequences having floating points. Stop me.
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19:29:18 <ais523> cpressey: quick, do something saner!
19:29:32 <cpressey> Uh... uh...
19:29:49 <cpressey> Installing Ubuntu Server 10.04.
19:29:57 <cpressey> Ah, nice and banal computer usage.
19:30:33 <cpressey> Packages! Partitions! Progress bars! NORMAL.
19:31:28 <cpressey> Actually, we do have a "time travel" feature where I work.
19:31:45 <cpressey> It lets you preview a webpage as if you were viewing it at a given time and date.
19:31:55 <cpressey> Sadly, that's where it ends.
19:33:01 <Gregor-W> So install AT&T UNIX System V R4 instead!
19:33:35 <oklopol> recursion humor never gets old
19:34:00 <oklopol> i want a tv show with mathematics in it :(
19:35:39 <oklopol> seen what term?
19:36:05 <cpressey> oklopol: "fixpoint", apparently as an abbreviation for "fixed point"
19:36:10 <oklopol> yes, it is
19:36:20 <cpressey> k, thought so, good to know.
19:36:46 <cpressey> Not that anyone uses fixed-point arithmetic these days :)
19:37:17 <oklopol> yeah that's not a very useful term, fixed points are abbreviated not because of that, but because that term is very useful
19:37:23 <oklopol> that that that
19:38:00 <oklopol> well, in the kinds of stuff where you need the term a lot at least :-)
19:38:05 <cpressey> I prefer "fixie"! "This function has a fixie..."
19:38:24 <cpressey> But that collides with a kind of one-speed hipster bicycle which lacks brakes.
19:38:30 <oklopol> you can get almost that short by saying "f fixes x"
19:40:16 <Gregor-W> Except that f fixes AT x, doesn't it?
19:40:41 <oklopol> no
19:40:42 <oklopol> well
19:40:49 <oklopol> that maybe work too, but nh
19:40:56 <oklopol> *may
19:41:16 <oklopol> (just "f fixes x" has google results)
19:42:10 <oklopol> (not many though)
19:42:52 <AnMaster> <cpressey> Not that anyone uses fixed-point arithmetic these days :) <-- um
19:42:53 <AnMaster> embedded
19:43:02 <AnMaster> cpressey, not everything has FPUs
19:43:19 <cpressey> AnMaster: Smiley indicates I am DEAD SERIOUS.
19:43:29 <AnMaster> cpressey, of course!
19:43:30 <oklopol> no one uses fpu's nowadays
19:43:34 <AnMaster> oklopol, hah
19:43:39 <oklopol> bignum ratios are the way to go
19:43:46 <oklopol> ..rationals that is
19:44:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, ah indeed I was just going to ask about sqrt(2) and such
19:44:21 <oklopol> well who believes in that kind of stuff anyhow
19:44:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, in what stuff? square roots? irrational numbers?
19:45:12 <oklopol> i don't believe in complete metric spaces
19:45:52 -!- sixhourtennis has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:46:27 <oklopol> well aren't you going to tell the obvious joke?
19:46:27 <AnMaster> hah
19:46:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't know the obvious joke
19:46:45 <oklopol> well i'm not sure what the joke would be, exactly
19:47:02 <AnMaster> ...
19:47:16 <AnMaster> oklopol, I guess it isn't very obvious then
19:47:24 <oklopol> but i mean there are a few rather believable examples of complete metric spaces
19:47:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, I can't say I'm familiar with the term at all
19:48:21 -!- hiato has joined.
19:48:23 <oklopol> well then you're in luck because i love talking about completeness
19:48:30 <oklopol> do you know metric spaces?
19:48:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, I heard the term
19:48:44 <AnMaster> that is all
19:48:58 <oklopol> R is among other things a metric space
19:49:04 <oklopol> this means there's a distance function.
19:49:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, or is that like euclidian, manhattan and such?
19:49:07 <AnMaster> ah
19:49:08 <AnMaster> right
19:49:27 <AnMaster> oklopol, so what is a complete such one
19:50:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:50:22 <oklopol> it means cauchy sequences converge
19:50:26 <oklopol> and what that means is
19:51:14 <AnMaster> hm?
19:51:21 <oklopol> completeness is basically saying that there are no "holes" in the space, a cauchy sequence is a sequence such that the points in it get closer and closer to all the points in the rest of the sequence
19:51:56 <oklopol> so for any epsilon > 0, there's a n_0 such that for all m, n > n_0, d(x_n, x_m) < epsilon
19:51:57 <oklopol> do you get that?
19:52:18 <oklopol> hehe
19:52:23 <AnMaster> hm
19:52:34 <oklopol> i sort of changed what i was about to say midway :D
19:52:42 <AnMaster> oklopol, if there is no holes in space it basically mean you will have an uncountable set?
19:52:49 <oklopol> or i mean said two completely different things separated by a comma
19:53:01 <AnMaster> oklopol, of course, from an integer's point of view, the integers have no holes ;)
19:53:36 <oklopol> AnMaster: no not necessarily, {0} is complete because the only cauchy sequence is x_i = 0 for all i, and clearly it approaches 0 (this shouldn't make sense to you because i haven't defined completeness yet)
19:53:53 <AnMaster> oklopol, this being a degenerate sense of course?
19:53:56 <AnMaster> err
19:54:00 <AnMaster> s/sense/case/
19:54:09 <AnMaster> oklopol, also is {} complete?
19:54:27 <oklopol> yes i suppose, but i doubt all people would define {} to be a metric space
19:54:34 <AnMaster> touche
19:54:56 <oklopol> probably it would lead to having to add clutter in the beginning of proofs
19:54:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, yes of course {} is imperial not metric
19:55:08 <AnMaster> had to say it oerjan isn't here
19:55:11 <oklopol> LOL funny dude hey so did you get cauchys
19:55:13 <oklopol> true.
19:55:24 <AnMaster> hm
19:55:25 <AnMaster> maybe
19:55:29 <oklopol> what it says is
19:55:52 <oklopol> if you go far enough in the sequence, there will be no great distances between the rest of the points in the sequence.
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19:56:28 <AnMaster> oklopol, how do you make such a sequence then? I mean, if you just take any random number sequence it wouldn't be one of those
19:56:56 <oklopol> no it wouldn't, this is just how we define a cauchy sequence, i haven't said anything about how to interpret it
19:57:43 <oklopol> basically this is a kind of sequence that you can force to be in arbitrarily small place
19:58:09 <oklopol> and completeness just means there will be a point where that sequence "lands" (the sequence converges)
19:58:23 <oklopol> *in an
19:58:35 <oklopol> and now to be a bit more concrete
19:58:35 <AnMaster> hm
19:58:55 <AnMaster> oklopol, will that point be lim → inf?
19:59:04 <AnMaster> I mean
19:59:06 <oklopol> reals can be defined by taking rationals, and adding points so that cauchy sequences converge (although you need some additional stuff or you might get other spaces too)
19:59:18 <AnMaster> the position in the sequence of it
19:59:24 <oklopol> well no
19:59:29 <oklopol> err
19:59:31 <oklopol> oh yes
19:59:34 <oklopol> sorry misunderstood
19:59:36 <AnMaster> ah
19:59:58 <AnMaster> oklopol, so in some sense there is no point where it converges then. Not any finite one at least
20:00:16 <AnMaster> finitely far into the sequence I mean
20:00:17 <oklopol> so to be precise, for any cauchy sequence (x_i) there is a point y such that for all e>0 there is an n_0 such that for all n>n_0 d(x_n, y) < e
20:00:40 <AnMaster> hm
20:00:56 <oklopol> well the point of completeness is that "there is a point everywhere"
20:01:08 <cpressey> Sounds crowded.
20:01:21 <AnMaster> oklopol, and e goes towards zero when x_n goes to inf?
20:01:37 <oklopol> we formalize this by defining cauchy sequences, sequences that gets closer and closer to *something* (because the distances between its elements get smaller), and completeness requires there's a point there
20:01:41 <AnMaster> oklopol, wait you said "<oklopol> reals can be defined by taking rationals, and adding points so that cauchy sequences converge (although you need some additional stuff or you might get other spaces too)"
20:01:44 <AnMaster> is that true for all reals?
20:01:45 <Gregor-W> #esoteric is totally overrun with euros.
20:01:50 <Gregor-W> I should do something about that.
20:01:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Wow, maths.
20:02:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, ?
20:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, does the UK count as Euro?
20:02:14 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Depends who you ask :P
20:02:22 <oklopol> AnMaster: yes that's one way to define reals
20:02:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, they don't use EUR
20:02:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, not in the currency sense.
20:02:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, even uncomputable ones?
20:02:34 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, I kind of know that.
20:02:35 <oklopol> sure
20:02:52 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: From the perspective of an American, Brits are just euros with funny teeth.
20:02:55 <Phantom_Hoover> I was asking if Gregor-W included us in "euros".
20:02:59 <AnMaster> oklopol, huh, what is the catch then? It sounds like this should be easy to compute even for uncomputable ones then?
20:03:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, that stereotype is baseless!
20:03:15 <oklopol> AnMaster: e doesn't really go towards zero in what i said, the definition just states "for any e"
20:03:40 <cpressey> Yay! I can build kernel modules! FINALLY.
20:03:46 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: What's that? I couldn't understand you spitting through the gaps in your teeth.
20:04:02 <AnMaster> oklopol, oh
20:04:03 <oklopol> AnMaster: one cauchy sequence that approaches a real number is the sequence of prefices of its digit expansion
20:04:15 <AnMaster> hm
20:04:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, prefices?
20:04:30 <oklopol> prefix in plural
20:04:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Plural of "prefix".
20:04:38 <Phantom_Hoover> For the pretentious.
20:04:48 <oklopol> 3, 3.1, 3.14, 3.141, ...
20:04:48 <Gregor-W> Extremely pretentious.
20:04:48 <AnMaster> heck even aspell doesn't know it
20:04:55 <oklopol> pretentious?
20:04:56 <AnMaster> but, that doesn't help here
20:05:01 -!- hiato_ has joined.
20:05:09 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: That would be because it's not actually a word, it's just a pretention masquerading as a word :P
20:05:11 <AnMaster> oklopol, what do you mean with a prefix in a digit expansion?
20:05:16 <Gregor-W> That's how pretentious it is.
20:05:28 <cpressey> oklopol: OOC, would it be possible to define (well, or at least, describe) such things without sequences? Like, forall A, C where A < C, exists B where A < B < C
20:05:33 <oklopol> there's nothing pretentious about it
20:05:47 <oklopol> that's how x behaves when you add -es, on irc
20:05:54 <AnMaster> oklopol, but what do you mean with prefixes in digit expansions?
20:06:31 <oklopol> cpressey: that's a different concept called perfectness :)
20:06:40 <oklopol> wait is it the same thing...
20:06:47 <oklopol> (as perfectness that is)
20:06:57 <oklopol> cpressey: but anyway rationals have that property
20:07:02 <oklopol> yet they are obviously not complete
20:07:14 <oklopol> (approach sqrt(2) for instance)
20:07:23 <cpressey> oklopol: Yes, I see. It's not as strong, is it.
20:07:23 -!- hiato has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:07:35 <oklopol> i believe it's just it's different
20:07:40 <AnMaster> oklopol, what does such a sequence look like?
20:07:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, lets say, the one for pi
20:08:06 <oklopol> see {0, 1} is complete with the metric d(0, 0) = d(1, 1) = 0, otherwise d(x,y)=!
20:08:07 <oklopol> *1
20:08:13 <cpressey> You'd need a distance function to have completeness it seems, you have to show that A and B (or B and C) are really, uh, close.
20:08:28 <AnMaster> heh
20:08:29 <oklopol> AnMaster: there are multiple cauchy sequences for it
20:08:37 <oklopol> exactly 7, you should try finding them
20:08:45 <oklopol> (i'm joking, there are uncountably many)
20:08:48 <AnMaster> :P
20:09:36 <oklopol> cpressey: describe all you want but usually that just confuses things... :D
20:09:46 <AnMaster> oklopol, you didn't fool me. It is obvious that there can be an infinite number of them for any given number if the set you are working in is infinite
20:09:56 <oklopol> yep
20:09:59 <oklopol> and why is that?
20:10:04 <oklopol> (i mean there's a very short proof)
20:10:23 -!- micahjohnston has joined.
20:10:44 <AnMaster> oklopol, well I don't have a proof. It just seems obvious from thinking about it. you could just add some more, further away, elements at the start of the sequence
20:10:52 <oklopol> yep
20:10:54 <oklopol> that's the proof
20:10:57 <AnMaster> well with the relevant spacing I think
20:11:19 <cpressey> W00T, shared folders!
20:11:23 <AnMaster> oklopol, do you have to "home" in on the number so that you have as much left on both sides all the time?
20:11:32 <oklopol> AnMaster: no
20:11:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, or can you kind of start with 0,9 and then home in on, say, 8.92
20:11:56 <oklopol> you can add any finite amount of numbers in the beginning.
20:12:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, oklopol, but the number must always be between your numbers (every pair of them I mean?
20:12:43 <AnMaster> oklopol, or can you start with 0,9 and "home in" on 842 ?
20:12:43 <oklopol> for any e we need n_0 such that ..., assuming a sequence satisfies this, if you add k things in the beginning, always, given e, take n_0+k.
20:13:30 <AnMaster> oklopol, why only adding finitely number of elements?
20:13:46 <oklopol> if you add an infinite amount of elements to a sequence, you change it completely
20:14:06 <AnMaster> oklopol, couldn't we keep adding new elements at the start forever? Hm wait maybe that is just infinite in potential
20:14:13 <AnMaster> probably
20:14:32 <oklopol> we could add elements forever. that means changing the whole sequence :)
20:15:06 <oklopol> for uncountability (in the real case), notice you can add small enough fluctuations to each element of the sequence
20:15:25 <oklopol> (smaller and smaller the farther you get)
20:16:11 <oklopol> AnMaster: as usual with sequences, we do not care at all what happens in the beginning, as long as the correct thing happens once we get far enough
20:18:30 <AnMaster> mhm
20:19:37 <AnMaster> oklopol, so these sequences must be infinite for irrationals right?
20:19:40 <oklopol> or starts happening, in this case what we want to happen is that we get a ball containing everything in the rest of the sequence (so this is like limits, except the ball is around sequence elements, not a the limit of the sequence)
20:19:49 <oklopol> *-a
20:20:18 <AnMaster> wait what? what ball?
20:20:20 <oklopol> arbitrarily small such ball
20:20:23 <oklopol> oh well
20:20:45 <oklopol> the definition of a ball in a metric spaces should be obvious but
20:20:57 <oklopol> B(x, r) = {y | d(x, y) < r}
20:20:58 <AnMaster> well assume I'm not a mathematician
20:21:00 <oklopol> (open ball)
20:21:13 <oklopol> so it's just another way to say that an element is close to another
20:21:26 <AnMaster> oklopol, maths would be easier if you used names that were longer than one letter
20:21:30 <AnMaster> I would call that obfuscated ;P
20:22:04 <AnMaster> oklopol, and is that | as in divides? Or yet another variant of the set construction notation?
20:22:14 <AnMaster> I seen : and what not for it as well
20:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, using multi-character variable names in maths is anathema.
20:23:11 <oklopol> the reason programming benefits from long names is that there are so many of them, in math most things are used a million times so you learn what the character stands for
20:23:18 <oklopol> AnMaster: construction
20:23:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, for no particular reason
20:23:31 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, it means the set of all points y such that the distance from a point x to y is less than the radius.
20:23:49 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I can read that once I know what the symbol means in this case
20:23:55 <AnMaster> math likes operator overloading
20:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> OK.
20:23:58 <AnMaster> it seems
20:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, does maths have types?
20:24:35 <oklopol> there's even "type theory"
20:24:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, there are obviously fields of it which use them, but does it apply to other fields?
20:24:47 <oklopol> more often you talk about sets, same thing really
20:25:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, yes.
20:25:24 <oklopol> math is all about what set the things you're talking about, and that's their "type"
20:25:27 <cpressey> "egg-dist-tmp-o0Mp0o" ... nice temp file name!
20:25:28 <AnMaster> {} = the set of all mathematicians using multi-char variable names
20:25:30 <Phantom_Hoover> There's operator theory, too, isn't there?
20:25:42 <oklopol> probably, i don't know what that is
20:25:45 * cpressey o0Mp0o's down the hall
20:25:48 <AnMaster> cpressey, python I presume
20:25:49 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, that's called IIRC.
20:25:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes
20:26:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but I didn't know how to type it
20:26:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Compose-O-/
20:26:22 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, isn't that Danish ö?
20:26:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but they're identical.
20:26:41 <AnMaster> yep, Shift-AltGr-ö gives Ø
20:26:53 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, not in unicode I presume
20:27:02 <Phantom_Hoover> It probably is, actually.
20:27:05 <oklopol> or well i guess it's sort of obvious it has to do with operators, but i don't really know what their definition is
20:27:11 * Phantom_Hoover brings up his character map
20:27:24 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, nop ∅
20:27:31 <AnMaster> that is the unicode for empty set
20:27:37 <oklopol> (not really the kinds of operators you have in programming)
20:27:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, in this font it is different
20:27:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, but there isn't a compose sequence for it.
20:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> And I only try AltGr if I'm desperate.
20:27:57 <oklopol> (whereas type theory is about THOSE kinds of types)
20:28:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, altgr doesn't have it
20:28:10 <AnMaster> altgr have Ø which is danish ö
20:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Incidentally, how do you customise the compose sequences?
20:28:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, in theory there is a file you can put in ~ with that, never got it to work
20:28:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Urgh.
20:29:01 <Phantom_Hoover> I really want compose-p-i to do the obvious thing
20:29:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, there is a file in /usr/share you could try as well
20:29:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, probably needs to restart X in between
20:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Which of the 411 entries in /usr/share is it?
20:30:32 <oklopol> i should put an ad on the webs that i want someone to exchange definitions and proofs with, people at the math dep mostly just talk about boring irl stuff :(
20:30:39 <oklopol> it's usually like
20:30:48 <Phantom_Hoover> -=≡≣
20:30:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I love Unicode.
20:31:14 <oklopol> everyone's talking about seminars and shit and i just drift off and suddenly ask someone "so do you know of a generalization of ..." and everyone looks at me like "umm get a life dood"
20:31:28 <oklopol> (that's not true, usually they enjoy answering my questions.)
20:31:41 <oklopol> (but then it's back to boringland)
20:31:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I got that when I told my fellow mathematics scholars about the Pascal-Sierpinski thing.
20:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> ⨌ For the love of god!
20:32:23 <oklopol> luckily i'm currently surrounded by people who know a lot more about everything than i do
20:32:34 <oklopol> so i don't start lecturing
20:32:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Why on earth would I need a quadruple-integral sign?
20:33:01 <cpressey> My font doesn't even support that one.
20:33:27 <oklopol> (i consider explaining how theorems are proven the greatest form of communication)
20:33:55 <cpressey> Holy !&%@* when did nano start doing syntax colorring???
20:33:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I don't think I've ever told anyone a proof IRL.
20:34:04 <cpressey> *colouring???
20:34:10 <oklopol> well unfortunately it's really hard to actually do formal proof in speech
20:34:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, excepting some competitions, where it was marked by someone I never met.
20:34:44 <ais523> cpressey: nano's done it pretty much forever IIRC, it's pico that doesn't do it
20:34:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ⩶ Triple equals sign. Where will that possibly be used.
20:34:57 <Phantom_Hoover> And why can't you just write "==="?
20:35:01 <oklopol> triple equals signs are used for mod
20:35:02 <oklopol> oh
20:35:03 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: ≡ is used all over the place in maths
20:35:06 <ais523> for congruence
20:35:06 <oklopol> that kind of it
20:35:12 <Phantom_Hoover> No, that's congruence.
20:35:26 <Phantom_Hoover> I was talking about three consecutive equals signs.
20:35:32 <oklopol> you meant some sort of composite === that i saw as a rectangel
20:35:34 <oklopol> *rectangle
20:35:35 <cpressey> ais523: I must have been running an old version before, then. Also, I never noticed it's called "GNU Nano", now...
20:35:53 <ais523> cpressey: the syntax highlight library seems to be optional, at least on Ubuntu
20:35:58 <ais523> I don't have it installed
20:35:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:36:06 <oklopol> so let's talk about feather
20:36:09 -!- augur has joined.
20:36:13 <oklopol> how does it work exactly, again?
20:36:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ⫷ is pushing it. It's three nested <s.
20:36:20 <cpressey> ais523: Ah. They probably leave it out on TurnKey Linux and every other distro I've used previously.
20:36:20 <oklopol> emphasis on exactly
20:36:22 <ais523> oklopol: are you just trying to wind me up?
20:36:42 <oklopol> ais523: nono i'm just wondering what the exact details of the language are
20:36:43 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I have no idea how it works, beyond the retroactive alteration
20:36:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Explain the basics
20:36:59 <ais523> oklopol: I don't know myself
20:37:00 <AnMaster> <cpressey> Holy !&%@* when did nano start doing syntax colorring??? <-- I noticed that recently too
20:37:02 <ais523> and keep changing my mind
20:37:04 <cpressey> The exact details of the language are subject to retroactive alteration.
20:37:07 <AnMaster> cpressey, it only doe one one of my systems
20:37:09 <oklopol> ais523: in other words yes, i suppose
20:37:15 <oklopol> cpressey: good one
20:37:23 <ais523> cpressey: that's truer than you might think
20:37:24 <AnMaster> cpressey, even though arch linux should be bleeding edge it only happens on ubuntu for me
20:37:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, ⩴. ::=, could be nice for Thue programs.
20:38:01 <oklopol> i never really got "bleeding edge", could someone explain it to me
20:38:10 <ais523> ooh, it syntax-highlights by default for me too now
20:38:14 <cpressey> AnMaster: If only it had a "go to line #" function, it would probably start looking like a viable editor for me.
20:38:15 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, doesn't it mean that it probably doesn't work.
20:38:19 <ais523> they must have started bundling the highlight library with the program itself
20:38:26 <ais523> which would explain why everyone noticed it only recently
20:38:50 <AnMaster> cpressey, ^W ^T
20:38:51 <oklopol> ohhhhhh
20:38:54 <AnMaster> cpressey, that is goto line
20:38:56 <AnMaster> cpressey, iirc
20:39:08 <olsner> in nano? isn't it Esc-G?
20:39:11 <AnMaster> cpressey, I normally use emacs when programming, which is when I need goto line
20:39:18 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i wasn't aware that it's a joke on leading edge, i thought it was just another way to say "really modern and cool and shit" :D
20:39:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know.
20:39:31 <oklopol> so i also wasn't aware that it means it doesn't work
20:39:34 <AnMaster> olsner, that sounds like emacs.
20:39:40 <Phantom_Hoover> oklopol, I was making that up.
20:39:49 <oklopol> Phantom_Hoover: i checked it
20:39:52 <AnMaster> olsner, it is M-g g in emacs it seems
20:39:53 <oklopol> but okay
20:40:03 <AnMaster> had to check with my fingers in emacs to remember
20:40:07 <AnMaster> too used to it
20:40:11 <AnMaster> muscle memory or something
20:40:12 <oklopol> hmm
20:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Hey, anyone remember Lumeniki?
20:40:25 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure i've seen bleeding edge used to just mean "the newest of new"
20:41:25 <cpressey> AnMaster: Indeed, ^W^T works. Thanks.
20:41:26 <ais523> goto line is M-g M-g in emacs
20:41:33 <Phantom_Hoover> No it isn't
20:41:41 <ais523> yes it is, I use that combo loads
20:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it's M-g g.
20:41:54 <Phantom_Hoover> As well.
20:41:57 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I said that
20:42:05 <ais523> hmm, both work
20:42:09 <ais523> M-g g must be newer, though
20:42:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, that's why I said it.
20:42:20 <cpressey> oklopol: I thought "bleeding edge" was a reference to "as new as possible -- so new, it's dangerous".
20:42:28 <AnMaster> cpressey, it says that at the bottom of the screen as you type C-w in nano
20:42:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I instinctively type ^D after ^X^C now.
20:42:42 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:42:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, forgot ^K
20:43:29 <Phantom_Hoover> What good would that do?
20:43:41 <ais523> AnMaster: how did javadoc end up in perpet.c?
20:43:46 <ais523> that must be your doing, I don't think I'd have done that myself
20:43:48 <AnMaster> ais523, what?
20:43:51 <ais523> I don't mind, I'm just terribly surprised
20:43:57 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you mean javadoc?
20:44:06 <AnMaster> ais523, doxygen could be me. Javadoc: no
20:44:09 <ais523> /** @param argc What do you think? */
20:44:12 <ais523> javadoc format
20:44:19 <AnMaster> ais523, doxygen syntax to me
20:44:39 <ais523> I'm not surprised that doxygen used a pre-existing syntax
20:44:43 <ais523> so that it worked on Java too
20:44:45 <AnMaster> true
20:44:51 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't doxygen do \ as well
20:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> What are you talking about?
20:44:54 <AnMaster> as an alternative
20:45:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: perpet.c is one of the source files in C-INTERCAL
20:45:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway surely it fits in the general madness in there
20:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I thought ESR maintained that.
20:45:21 <ais523> it does
20:45:28 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, no ais523 does
20:45:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you're years out of date
20:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably.
20:45:38 <ais523> ESR generally has better things to do with his time
20:45:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, I don't need to boycott it any more.
20:46:02 <ais523> most of the ESRisms have left by now
20:46:11 <ais523> it's come along a lot since the days of ESR
20:46:12 <cpressey> Oh come now, what could possibly be better use of one's time...
20:46:17 <olsner> doxygen is like javadoc but for other languages and with a few extensions like accepting \ instead of @
20:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, what better things can he do?
20:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Shoot people with GUNs?
20:46:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, APT doesn't have C-INTERCAL.
20:46:59 <AnMaster> cpressey, than what?
20:47:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it does
20:47:07 <ais523> it's under the name "intercal"
20:47:11 <AnMaster> olsner, \ is for compat with something else iirc
20:47:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
20:47:13 <AnMaster> olsner, :P
20:47:26 <ais523> IIRC, Debian has the most recent stable version, but there's a more recent beta
20:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> But the description is "an INTERCAL de-obfuscator".
20:47:34 <AnMaster> olsner, qtdocs sounds familiar
20:47:35 <AnMaster> not sure
20:47:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's a bad joke, and not one of mine
20:47:49 <ais523> the idea being that machine code is easier to read than INTERCAL
20:47:55 <AnMaster> ais523, :D
20:47:59 <olsner> iinm qt should be newer than java
20:48:31 <AnMaster> olsner, iinm?
20:48:39 <olsner> if I'm not mistaken
20:48:45 <ais523> if I... never mind
20:49:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there an IPv5?
20:49:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, development version
20:49:48 <olsner> doxygen was first released in 1997, and javadoc in 1995 according to wikipedia
20:50:09 <AnMaster> ais523, wouldn't that be iinn?
20:50:12 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but it's unrelated to v4 or v6 and has an entirely different purpose
20:50:19 <ais523> AnMaster: err, no?
20:50:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Where's C-INTERCAL kept?
20:50:32 <AnMaster> ais523, oh wait
20:50:35 <AnMaster> thinko
20:50:36 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: http://c.intercal.org.uk
20:51:10 <AnMaster> ais523, last I checked only ipv6 worked for that
20:51:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Who's Claudio Calvelli?
20:51:24 <AnMaster> ais523, seems repaired now
20:51:25 <ais523> AnMaster: that's only for the gopher download, http works fine over v4
20:51:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: CLC-INTERCAL chief developer
20:51:37 <ais523> we share the domain name intercal.org.uk
20:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah.
20:51:47 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:51:59 <Phantom_Hoover> 0.-2.0.29 is the latest?
20:52:01 <ais523> both British, after all
20:52:03 <ais523> and yes
20:52:09 <AnMaster> ais523, well for a while http over v4 was broken
20:52:10 <cpressey> gopher ftw
20:52:12 <AnMaster> ais523, a few weeks ago
20:52:23 <AnMaster> cpressey, fully agreed
20:52:41 -!- wareya has joined.
20:55:40 <Phantom_Hoover> How do I extract from archives with pax?
20:55:47 <ais523> use tar
20:56:00 <ais523> pax is the POSIX standard archiving format
20:56:12 <ais523> but hardly anyone uses it (except Mac OS X)
20:56:22 <ais523> only BSD seems to provide pax by default, but it's backwards-compatible with tar
20:56:32 <ais523> and GNU tar recognises the format so you even get all the new pax features
20:56:46 <Phantom_Hoover> What is the point, then?
20:56:59 <ais523> standards! when /nobody else uses them/!
20:57:08 <ais523> INTERCAL can't resist the opportunity to be correct where nobody else is
20:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Except OS X!
20:57:14 <ais523> it doesn't count
20:57:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I agree.
20:57:20 <cpressey> I think, in contrast to the common eval-phobia of Lisp'ers in the past, I'd like to see a language which embraces eval, and uses it for everything.
20:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, surely one exists already?
20:57:41 <ais523> cpressey: do Underload-alikes count?
20:57:45 <cpressey> Well I'd like to see it!
20:57:54 <cpressey> ais523: Mmmm aybe.
20:57:55 <ais523> it uses eval for all flow control
20:57:55 <AnMaster> ais523, why a file extension at all
20:58:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, why do people hate eval?
20:58:00 <AnMaster> ais523, after all there is file(1)
20:58:29 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Because they love compiling ahead of time.
20:58:40 <ais523> $ file ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz
20:58:41 <ais523> ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.gz: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Wed Apr 1 16:30:28 2009, max compression
20:59:00 <AnMaster> cpressey, well I wouldn't want eval in an implementation of /bin/su
20:59:08 <ais523> $ file ick-0.-2.0.29.pax
20:59:10 <ais523> ick-0.-2.0.29.pax: POSIX tar archive
20:59:13 <ais523> hmm, not bad
20:59:29 <cpressey> su `whoami`
20:59:57 <ais523> cpressey: isn't that just a little pointless?
21:00:23 <AnMaster> $() dammit
21:00:28 <AnMaster> I dislike `
21:00:29 <cpressey> Well, just demonstrating that we already have something eval-y there.
21:00:34 <AnMaster> hard to type on this keyboard
21:00:40 <AnMaster> cpressey, that ` is done in shell
21:00:42 <AnMaster> cpressey, not in su
21:00:47 <AnMaster> cpressey, so that doesn't count
21:01:06 <AnMaster> cpressey, wouldn't work if you started it from a C program with the execv() call
21:01:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:01:20 <cpressey> AnMaster: I know that.
21:02:09 * ais523 searches for historical versions of C-INTERCAL I don't have
21:02:18 <ais523> ooh, seems FreeBSD has the SHA has for 0.17
21:02:25 <ais523> *SHA1 hash
21:02:31 <ais523> I wonder if it has the tarball too?
21:03:46 <ais523> apparently not
21:04:51 <AnMaster> ais523, ask ESR?
21:05:03 <ais523> worth a /try/ I suppose
21:05:16 <ais523> but I'm not certain he's even aware that anyone else picked up the mantle of INTERCAL development
21:05:23 <AnMaster> ais523, mail him?
21:05:38 -!- augur has joined.
21:05:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also online as esr, but in #wesnoth-dev
21:05:53 <ais523> I tried IRCing him once, but he ignored me
21:06:05 <ais523> I think, anyway
21:06:09 <ais523> my memory's a bit hazy
21:06:10 <cpressey> ESR is a Wesnoth developer? That seems so... slumming.
21:06:19 <AnMaster> cpressey, slumming?
21:06:22 <ais523> not reason to veto Wesnoth, though, IMO
21:06:36 <AnMaster> cpressey, I think he works on story stuff rather than the technical stuff mostly? Not sure
21:06:44 <cpressey> Open Source is more important than ... just ... *games*!
21:07:07 <AnMaster> cpressey, wesnoth is one of the most popular foss games though
21:07:09 <ais523> cpressey: games are one of the main reasons people don't switch to Linux, aren't they?
21:07:19 <ais523> AnMaster: possibly /the/ most popular, for all I know it even beats NetHack
21:07:44 <AnMaster> ais523, hah. I don't have statistics. Thus I didn't want to make any more specific claims
21:08:03 <cpressey> But Open Source is more than just getting people to switch to Linux! ... etc. I won't continue
21:08:09 <AnMaster> cpressey, BSD too?
21:08:45 <AnMaster> I know someone who thinks linux is the worst _kernel_ ever. No not a windows user. a *BSD user.
21:09:33 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't see how a Windows user /could/ think Linux is the worst kernel ever, after all they have to actually live with the NT kernel
21:09:58 <AnMaster> ais523, he based this opinion on reading parts of linux 2.2.0
21:10:25 <cpressey> BSD people tend to be like that.
21:10:44 <AnMaster> cpressey, he prefers windows over linux he says
21:10:46 <cpressey> It's true the BSD kernel is superior in a lot of ways. But surely there are worse kernels out there than Linux.
21:11:01 <Phantom_Hoover> NetHack > Wesnoth.
21:11:08 <ais523> I like both games
21:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Roguelike Wesnoth would be neat, though.
21:11:14 <AnMaster> same
21:11:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't have the patience to micromanage.
21:11:36 <AnMaster> hm
21:11:59 <Phantom_Hoover> I like NetHack because you need to think, but you can concentrate.
21:12:07 <cpressey> I can't really stand computer RPGs anymore. I mostly play arcade-type games, when I play, these days.
21:12:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, because it's incredibly cool.
21:12:25 <cpressey> I get enough thinking with my job and my hobby.
21:12:32 <AnMaster> I never liked arcade
21:12:36 <AnMaster> too much about speed
21:12:41 <AnMaster> and I'm rather slow to react
21:12:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I am at school. I get no intellectual stimulation whatsoever.
21:13:14 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Touche.
21:13:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, friend nerds?
21:13:28 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, you make me laugh.
21:13:36 <Phantom_Hoover> AFAIK there isn't another nerd in my year.
21:13:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm that will change at university
21:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I was in the top computing class, and I believe I've bitched about that before.
21:14:15 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
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21:15:43 <Phantom_Hoover> There isn't a way to migrate NetHack saves, is there?
21:15:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, obviously not.
21:15:57 <ais523> to Wesnoth?
21:16:01 <AnMaster> XD
21:16:04 <Gregor-W> lawl
21:16:11 <ais523> now /that/ would be a fun project
21:16:13 <AnMaster> ais523, that was intentional right?
21:16:30 <ais523> AnMaster: what was?
21:16:34 <AnMaster> ais523, could you rewrite nethack in that scripting language of wesnoth, forgot the name of it
21:16:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it still encode the file's inode into the save to stop you from copying it?
21:16:44 <ais523> WML? probably, it's just-about TC
21:16:46 <AnMaster> ais523, misinterpreting it as migrating to wesnoth rather than between computers
21:16:47 <AnMaster> intentional
21:16:48 <ais523> in an esolangy sort of way
21:17:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it does have an anti-copy mechanism, but I'm not sure if it's that one specifically
21:17:09 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, doing anything with NetHacks source is a task for the hardiest of esolang programmers.
21:17:15 <ais523> it's the PID it embeds, I think, not the save file name
21:17:20 <Phantom_Hoover> s/NetHacks/NetHack's/
21:17:21 <ais523> to stop people duplicating levels in an open game
21:17:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, who said that?
21:17:34 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, me, from experience.
21:17:35 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I never said you should touch nethack source
21:17:42 <AnMaster> obviously you should reverse engineer it
21:17:50 <Phantom_Hoover> That's bloody hard too.
21:17:59 <Phantom_Hoover> The thing is a mass of preprocessor macros.
21:18:12 <AnMaster> and I know what nethack source looks like
21:18:17 <AnMaster> the worst bit is the indention
21:18:20 <AnMaster> mixed tab and spaces
21:18:22 <AnMaster> horrible
21:18:23 <ais523> NetHack's source is nothing compared to bits of Crawl
21:18:33 <ais523> and mixed tab-space is trivial to fix, just use indent or sed or something
21:18:35 <AnMaster> ais523, never looked at that
21:18:56 <ais523> NetHack's source is an interesting intellectual puzzle; Crawl's made me feel physically sick
21:19:02 <Phantom_Hoover> What about the way it declares parameter types after the ()s?
21:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> That threw me for a while.
21:19:18 <cpressey> I heard the Angband source is nice. The number of forks of it would seem to support that idea.
21:19:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's old-style C
21:19:23 <AnMaster> this file is funny. it seems to use 2,2,3,2,3 for the tab stops with spaces
21:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, that would make sense.
21:19:35 <ais523> NetHack predates C89 really catching on
21:19:37 <AnMaster> there are no more levels to see if there is a pattern to it
21:19:46 <Gregor-W> void main(int argc, char args[][])
21:19:56 <ais523> Gregor-W: that's actually invalid IIRC
21:19:59 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, argv is the usually name
21:20:05 <ais523> char *args[] is the closest you can legally get
21:20:07 * cpressey hurls a weasel at Gregor-W
21:20:07 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: Yeah, I typo'd args :P
21:20:10 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, and yes it is invalid
21:20:16 <AnMaster> because main should return int
21:20:17 <AnMaster> not void
21:20:21 <Gregor-W> ais523: At some point in C's history, "*" was not a valid way to name a pointer.
21:20:23 <ais523> AnMaster: hah!
21:20:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Would it be even vaguely worthwhile to make a usable roguelike engine?
21:20:24 <AnMaster> ais523, it isn't illegal because of that afaik
21:20:31 <ais523> Gregor-W: you needed to use ! in BCPL, I think
21:20:33 <AnMaster> ais523, only because of return type
21:20:37 <Phantom_Hoover> That could plausibly have NH ported to it.
21:21:33 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway argv[][] should be completely valid afaik
21:21:40 <AnMaster> hm wait
21:21:42 <AnMaster> no it shouldn't
21:21:52 <AnMaster> but yes it has to return int anyway
21:21:56 <AnMaster> so invalid either way
21:22:03 <Gregor-W> You people are SO unhelpful.
21:22:11 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, why?
21:22:22 <Gregor-W> I make a really stupid joke and you tear it to threads :P
21:22:34 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, joke? I can't see any jokes
21:22:55 <Phantom_Hoover> It has occured to me in the past that C should be able to use Lispesque returning.
21:23:00 <ais523> $ cat > a.c \ int main(int argc, char argv[][]) {return 0;} \ $ gcc -ansi -pedantic -Wall -Wextra -O3 a.c \ a.c:1: error: array type has incomplete element type \ a.c:1: warning: ‘main’ takes only zero or two arguments \ a.c: In function ‘main’: \ a.c:1: warning: unused parameter ‘argc’ \ a.c:1: warning: unused parameter ‘argv’
21:23:05 <Gregor-W> I was just writing really bad C. I should have done: void main(argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; { ... }
21:23:07 <Gregor-W> I suppose
21:23:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yep indeed
21:23:31 <ais523> AnMaster: proof right there
21:23:40 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, only valid in K&R / C90
21:23:43 <AnMaster> not C99 afaik
21:23:46 <Phantom_Hoover> At least on x86.
21:23:56 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: _REALLY_ _BAD_ _C_
21:24:45 <Gregor-W> !c #include <stdio.h>\nint main(argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; { printf("Ain't I a stinker?\n"); }
21:24:52 <Gregor-W> Whoops, meant void main ...
21:25:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Aren't the bots down?
21:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot?
21:25:48 <cpressey> #ifdef _REALLY__BAD__C_
21:25:49 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: does the java interpreter?: ( destructure-case ' ( 1 2)
21:25:52 <Gregor-W> Shouldn't be.
21:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, good old fungot.
21:25:57 <Gregor-W> !help
21:25:57 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:25:57 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: one of the happy users of v2.0 i can tell emacs to ' show me' the open parens corresponding to the actual standard being sane) scheme implementations support all of the control stack between the invocation of the macro
21:26:05 <Phantom_Hoover> `echo hello
21:26:12 <Phantom_Hoover> `ls
21:26:13 <HackEgo> hello
21:26:15 <HackEgo> bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ test.sh \ tmpdir.26862 \ wunderbar_emporium
21:26:24 <Phantom_Hoover> !sh echo hello
21:26:24 <EgoBot> hello
21:27:28 <cpressey> `echo /me bows
21:27:29 <HackEgo> /me bows
21:28:16 <Gregor-W> `echo /quit Boy people wish this kind of thing would work, good thing Gregor isn't that stupid.
21:28:18 <HackEgo> /quit Boy people wish this kind of thing would work, good thing Gregor isn't that stupid.
21:29:17 <cpressey> HackEgo is contrained by the Fifth Law of Robotics: Never give up!
21:29:28 <cpressey> *constrained
21:29:53 <Gregor-W> CHALLENGE: Write an IRC client that applies fixes made by "*fix" and "s/bad/fix/" syntax.
21:30:03 <Gregor-W> (The first is the major challenge)
21:30:20 <Gregor-W> CHALLENGE RELEVANCE: Write this client in ... Brainfuck?
21:31:27 <micahjohnston> write it in malbolge with a genetic algorithm
21:32:36 <ais523> `echo <CTCP>ACTION bows<CTCP>
21:32:38 * HackEgo bows
21:34:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Why the 0x1s at the start?
21:34:55 <cpressey> `echo ACTION bows
21:34:56 <HackEgo> ACTION bows
21:35:17 * Sgeo__ sees someone on reddit mention "Alex Smith"
21:35:33 <Sgeo__> I'm so tempted to say something like "I talk to Alex Smith online on a semi-regular basis"
21:36:08 <ais523> which one?
21:36:16 <ais523> there are approximately 10 alex smiths more famous than me
21:36:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:36:30 <Sgeo__> I'm pretty sure the comment is referring to you
21:36:39 <ais523> best known is the American footballer
21:36:43 <Sgeo__> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/ci4dl/today_would_have_been_alan_turings_98th_birthday/c0sqaic
21:36:56 <ais523> I filter links...
21:37:07 <Sgeo__> "It is a personal story about how he came to learn about Turing and his work. I liked it.
21:37:07 <Sgeo__> He even gave Alex Smith the credit he deserves. Also: I liked his speculations about Turing's death. If it was an accident we can go back to hating gays, right?"
21:37:22 <ais523> hmm, interesting
21:37:35 <ais523> who wrote whatever "it" refers to in the comment?
21:37:49 <Sgeo__> Wolfram
21:38:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:39:11 -!- Deewiant has joined.
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21:44:20 <cpressey> The esolang wiki page for FALSE says it might not be TC. It seems to be it is TC because it can simulate the lambda calculus (this is one of the example programs.) Of course, there may be some subtlety in the way.
21:45:28 <ais523> is there a bounded-memory issue?
21:45:33 -!- hiato_ has quit (Quit: underflow).
21:46:11 <cpressey> ais523: Well, only a finite number of variable names (but if they can be closed over, that shouldn't be a huge problem). Also, only one stack (but you ought to be able to create lists using closures.)
21:46:41 <ais523> hmm, /me gives myself a link: http://esolangs.org/wiki/FALSE
21:46:51 <ais523> yes, it works when I do it >:)
21:47:32 <ais523> the wiki commentary seems to have missed the existence of a lambda operation altogether
21:48:11 <ais523> Nthern wrote a TCness proof on the talkpage
21:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Weird, weird.
21:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> Amazon has the first 3 volumes of The Sandman, new, for a sane price.
21:48:58 <ais523> that doesn't seem to be based on embedding lambda calculus, but rather doing pulling the same trick as SMITH but with data rather than code
21:49:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Volume 4 is available for 67 used.
21:49:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: maybe they got the rights to print the first three volumes
21:49:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Amazon don't print The Sandman AFAIK.
21:49:43 <ais523> Amazon has book-printing machines, they realised at some point it would save time and effort to simply print the books themselves on demand rather than having to buy them in from elsewhere
21:49:58 -!- micahjohnston2 has joined.
21:50:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Since the editions are identical to the ones found in normal bookshops.
21:50:57 <Phantom_Hoover> There are new editions, but there was something weird with them, too.
21:51:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, it costs 3 times as much as the first 3.
21:51:58 -!- micahjohnston2 has quit (Client Quit).
21:53:21 <AnMaster> ais523, what about hard cover?
21:53:30 <AnMaster> ais523, and different paper qualities and so on
21:53:31 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know the details
21:54:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, these points are all salient.
21:54:28 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean, books varies a lot. Everything from cheap paper back and books for small children with plastic pages, to huge books with high quality paper with photos and such on
21:54:59 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, I'm aware that it would be a valid issue, but I'm also telling you that I don't know the details and thus can't answer your concerns
21:55:05 <AnMaster> hm
21:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> But the first 3 volumes are all available as new paperbacks.
21:55:08 <ais523> zzo38 can get away with this, you can't
21:55:15 -!- micahjohnston has joined.
21:55:24 <AnMaster> ais523, maybe I'm turning into zzo!?
21:55:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, get away with what?
21:55:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: repeatedly assuming that people know the answers to your questions despite a) no context, and b) they already having told you they don't know
21:56:24 <AnMaster> ais523, also I wasn't asking you. I was just continuing my thread of thought
21:56:43 <AnMaster> the second time I mean
21:57:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway you are working on ick I heard?
21:57:17 <Phantom_Hoover> What more could it need?
21:57:24 <AnMaster> ais523, also you have to know about those doxygen comments, you reviewed my patches after all
21:57:37 <ais523> yes, but I forgot again afterwards
21:57:40 <AnMaster> ah
21:57:47 <ais523> and then vaguely reremembered, but forgot all the details
21:58:01 <AnMaster> ais523, ah. Well what were you doing in perpet.c?
21:58:09 <AnMaster> are we going to see anything interesting
21:58:12 <ais523> testing nano's syntax highlighting
21:58:19 <ais523> it was the first C file I thought of to test on
21:58:23 <AnMaster> ais523, perpet.c isn't the worst one
21:58:31 <AnMaster> ais523, kate 3.x used to fail at some other file
21:58:34 <AnMaster> forgot which one
21:58:44 <ais523> there's a file in the INTERCAL source that break's Kate's syntax hilighting?
21:58:45 <AnMaster> ais523, might have been uncommon.c or perpet.c before fixes
21:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> "This implementation was created by Eric S. Raymond <esr@snark.thyrsus.com>
21:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> during a fit of lunacy from which he has since mostly recovered."
21:58:57 <AnMaster> ais523, kate 3.x not 4.x I think
21:59:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I debate that.
21:59:05 <ais523> *breaks
21:59:14 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: you can recover from one lunacy into another
21:59:18 <AnMaster> ais523, and if it was perpet.c I probably worked around that when I was making the other changes since I think I used kate for it
21:59:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Fair point.
21:59:31 <Phantom_Hoover> The INTERCAL lunacy was preferable, though.
21:59:41 <ais523> I know there are a few comments around whose purpose is to unconfuse Emacs
21:59:48 <ais523> but I can't remember whether they're in INTERCAL or something else
21:59:57 <ais523> probably something else, because I seem to remember the language being Perl
21:59:59 <AnMaster> ais523, kate mostly get confused when you have stuff like:
22:00:04 <AnMaster> #ifdef ...
22:00:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Kate always seemed to have very good syntax highlighting.
22:00:10 -!- Deewiant has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:00:10 <AnMaster> if (...) {
22:00:14 <AnMaster> #else
22:00:15 <AnMaster> if (...) {
22:00:17 <AnMaster> #endif
22:00:17 <ais523> yep, it beats any other program I've tried, including Emacs
22:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it had some baffling omissions,
22:00:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Octave, but not M$>
22:00:24 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't match up then with the { and }
22:00:31 <AnMaster> ais523, meaning code folding breaks
22:00:31 <Phantom_Hoover> s/M$/M4/
22:00:32 <AnMaster> badly
22:00:38 <ais523> that isn't syntax highlighting, but I get your point
22:01:09 <AnMaster> ais523, I think kate broke on some syntax too before
22:01:16 <AnMaster> ais523, preprocessor thing most likely
22:01:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I forgot if it was kate or emacs that I managed to get to break badly on bash code once
22:01:50 <AnMaster> it got confused about where a string ended
22:02:14 <AnMaster> or was it a heredoc? anyway
22:02:16 <AnMaster> something like that
22:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I seem to recall Emacs getting confused by a weird string in Bash once.
22:02:44 <ais523> "All Known Implementing Classes: RequestProcessorFactoryFactory.RequestSpecificProcessorFactoryFactory, RequestProcessorFactoryFactory.StatelessProcessorFactoryFactory"
22:02:45 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, in a $() ?
22:02:52 <AnMaster> I remember some editor having issues with that
22:02:56 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know
22:03:00 <AnMaster> ais523, java?
22:03:04 <Phantom_Hoover> It wasn't in a $() though
22:03:07 <ais523> AnMaster: yes; the apache libs to be precise
22:03:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm
22:03:14 <AnMaster> ais523, this is a joke right?
22:03:24 <ais523> people were talking about overuse of design patterns; and someone said that was the worst example they knew of
22:03:28 <ais523> not a joke
22:03:33 <AnMaster> ouch
22:03:40 <AnMaster> ais523, factory factory is just broken
22:03:48 <ais523> first para of the docs is fun too: "The request processor is the object, which is actually performing the request. There is nothing magic about the request processor: It may very well be a POJO. The RequestProcessorFactoryFactory is passed to the AbstractReflectiveHandlerMapping at startup. The mapping uses this factory to create instances of RequestProcessorFactoryFactory.RequestProcessorFactory, which are used to initialize the
22:03:50 <ais523> ReflectiveXmlRpcHandler. The handler in turn uses its factory to create the actual request processor when a request comes in."
22:04:11 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, was it intentional that the compiler flags for C-INTERCAL are full of -DICK*s?
22:04:17 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: no
22:04:24 <ais523> I have a habit of triggering rude words by mistake
22:04:30 * Phantom_Hoover feels juvenile.
22:04:37 <ais523> everyone else is still convinced the :aSS in the Underload quine is intentional
22:04:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I never noticed that
22:04:40 <ais523> but it wasn't either
22:04:54 <AnMaster> ais523, I never noticed that either
22:05:04 <ais523> yep, I hadn't noticed it all along
22:05:06 <AnMaster> ais523, also those docs sound horrible
22:05:13 <ais523> http://ws.apache.org/xmlrpc/apidocs/org/apache/xmlrpc/server/RequestProcessorFactoryFactory
22:05:15 <ais523> see for yourself if you want
22:05:24 <AnMaster> why would I want it
22:05:32 <Phantom_Hoover> DICKDATADIR.
22:05:45 <ais523> the docs do at least explain why a factory factory is useful
22:05:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it does what it says on the tin.
22:05:49 <AnMaster> ais523, it would be like what is said about necrotelicomicon (sp?) in the Discworld books!
22:06:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Necrotelecomnicon.
22:06:32 <AnMaster> ah thanks
22:07:43 <AnMaster> you know about the things that make you feel "the future is here. fuck the flying cars!" ?
22:07:59 <AnMaster> I think panorama stitching is one of those
22:08:18 <ais523> what do i and n do in Befunge-98?
22:08:35 <AnMaster> ais523, i is "load file into funge space" and n is "clear stack"
22:08:37 <AnMaster> ais523, why?
22:08:45 <ais523> trying to understand a polyglot
22:08:47 <ais523> which I think is broken
22:08:57 <AnMaster> ais523, the one on stackoverflow?
22:09:00 <AnMaster> yes it is broken
22:09:01 <AnMaster> see logs
22:09:15 <ais523> ah, I rarely logread nowadays
22:09:17 <AnMaster> ais523, it is 93 but depends on unknown pushing ascii value
22:09:31 <ais523> ah, aha
22:09:37 <ais523> I was wondering how it ended up in stringmode
22:09:46 <ais523> with no double-quotes in the entire program
22:09:58 <ais523> what Befunge impl pushes unknown values?
22:10:27 <AnMaster> ais523, one linked on there iirc
22:10:31 <AnMaster> that is the only one we know of
22:10:36 <AnMaster> a java applet
22:10:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it would be pointless to link you to it of course
22:11:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Following on cpressey's earlier suggestion, how can you make an extremely eval-dependent language?
22:11:11 <ais523> AnMaster: and I can find it easily enough anyway
22:11:26 <cpressey> "FALSE does not have any way to create new lambda functions not in the source, so those don't help." Says Oerjan. :/
22:11:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: have no commands but eval, add the minimum syntax needed for TCness
22:11:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Is that possible?
22:11:42 <ais523> oh, are functions not first-class?
22:11:57 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, presumably /some/ level of added stuff gives TCness
22:12:01 <ais523> the issue is finding how much
22:12:24 <AnMaster> hm
22:12:58 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, FALSE doesn't really have functions, does it?
22:13:04 <ais523> as for oerjan's comment, I'm not sure I understand it
22:13:14 <ais523> unless the lambdas are somehow evaluated at compile-time
22:13:21 <ais523> or it has "lambdas" that aren't closures, or something
22:13:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Do you need closures for first-class functions?
22:14:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, C has first-class functions.
22:14:37 <cpressey> I guess you can't return functions from functions in FALSE, and yes, that would be critical to e.g. building lists from them.
22:14:38 <ais523> no, but you do need them to be able to generate TCness purely with functions
22:14:43 <ais523> and C does not have first-class functions
22:14:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it has function pointers.
22:14:58 <ais523> there's no (portable) way to copy a function in C, something which should definitely be possible with first-class values
22:15:21 <cpressey> ais523: So they're immutable!
22:15:29 <cpressey> No need to copy an immutable value, right?
22:15:33 <cpressey> :D
22:15:58 <ais523> cpressey: just because you don't /need/ to copy something...
22:16:22 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, is there no standardised way of executing code generated at runtime?
22:16:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nope
22:16:46 <ais523> but in practice, casting a char array to a function pointer and calling it tends to work
22:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought there was...
22:17:03 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, what about non-executable memory?
22:17:10 <ais523> then it crashes
22:17:17 <ais523> this is assuming you make the char array in executable memory somehow
22:17:25 <Phantom_Hoover> How do things like GNU Lightning work, then?
22:17:28 <ais523> and there's no portable way to do that either
22:17:47 <ais523> frameworks for doing such things probably have several nonportable ways, one for each platform where it needs to run
22:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, damn you for having such a common name.
22:18:15 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: can you take that back please!
22:18:20 <ais523> I strongly dislike religious insults
22:18:28 <ais523> damning someone is a wish for the worst possible thing to happen to them
22:18:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Really?
22:18:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't even believe in hell!
22:18:49 <ais523> yes, that's what it means
22:18:57 <Phantom_Hoover> How can I wish for you to go to it?
22:19:18 <AnMaster> ais523, there is a standard way to copy them in C. Assigning a function pointer. However: they are copy on write ;)
22:19:18 <ais523> and I know people like throwing insults around without caring about their meaning, but they should be a bit more sensiive
22:19:21 <ais523> *sensitive
22:19:52 <ais523> I'm not religious either, but I still take offense to comments like that
22:19:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I don't want you to go to any form of hell. Does that count as a rescindsion?
22:20:07 <Phantom_Hoover> I have no idea about that last word.
22:20:14 <AnMaster> ais523, how would you react to "fuck you"? In Swedish, sexual insults are _way_ worse than religious ones.
22:20:23 <Phantom_Hoover> It should exist, but it looks wrong.
22:20:25 <ais523> AnMaster: is wishing for someone to be fucked really an insult?
22:20:32 <AnMaster> ais523, hah
22:20:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I don't recognise the word either, but know what it means
22:20:46 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, I thought that applied in English.
22:21:00 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, thought it was the reverse in English?
22:21:01 <Phantom_Hoover> "Fuck" is generally considered far less acceptable than "damn".
22:21:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm
22:21:07 <AnMaster> maybe
22:21:21 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, maybe it was in south Europe it was the other way around
22:21:27 <AnMaster> I remember that it was somewhere
22:21:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Possily.
22:21:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: for most people, yes; but I think that's a crazy way round for it to be
22:21:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I think some Americans are touchy about religious language.
22:22:22 <Phantom_Hoover> But they tend to be the sort of people who wouldn't tolerate any swearing at all.
22:22:43 <ais523> I don't generally mind swearing, although I feel it's mostly inappropriate and pointless
22:24:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't particularly mind it, but I try not to go beyond mild curses.
22:24:35 <Sgeo__> I used to never swear in public. In private, with my computer open, is a different story
22:24:58 <Phantom_Hoover> To make sure I have an appropriately strong expletive when I type "rm * \~" when not in zsh.
22:25:03 <AnMaster> ais523, fuck the damn swearing?
22:25:09 <AnMaster> in other words
22:25:14 <ais523> AnMaster: that doesn't even make sense...
22:25:23 <ais523> if you translate all the words back into their original meanings
22:25:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Or when it turns out that my IRC client has been giving my name ou on whois.
22:25:41 <AnMaster> ais523, ... well of course.... But it does make sense in modern meanings in that context
22:26:27 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: if your name is Phantom Hoover, profane now because that's what whois says
22:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it isn't.
22:26:48 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, um rm like that won't work for me :P http://sprunge.us/LFRQ
22:26:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, two safe guards there
22:27:09 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway I can't see why you would type a \ before the ~ there
22:27:10 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, it was \~, not just ~/
22:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, remove backup files.
22:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> They tend to accumulate.
22:27:29 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes that would be rm *~
22:27:31 <AnMaster> no \ there
22:27:34 <AnMaster> ...
22:27:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, I suppose.
22:27:56 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, look again btw. 1) ~ is a dir, it would not get removed by rm without -r
22:28:02 <AnMaster> 2) I use rm -I at the end
22:28:10 <AnMaster> -I asks if more than 3 files or something like that
22:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but there was a * on its own.
22:28:13 <AnMaster> it asks once though
22:28:19 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: re eval lang: One thing you can do is replace blocks with strings. You can just say if("a>3", "print a") and suchlike.
22:28:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The \~ was unimportand.
22:28:23 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes and that rm -I will guard
22:28:33 <AnMaster> guard against*
22:28:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, and you should use version control and backups anyway
22:29:15 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, I have already told you that I haven't got anything important.
22:29:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, anyway rm -I is a good idea
22:29:28 <AnMaster> check the docs
22:29:39 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it asks once, not once per file
22:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I agree.
22:29:46 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:29:49 <AnMaster> and only if more than 3 files or such
22:29:53 <AnMaster> forgot exact limit
22:30:01 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, alias that or such
22:30:01 <Phantom_Hoover> zsh safeguards by default in any case.
22:30:14 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, oh? it special cases rm?
22:30:19 <Phantom_Hoover> What?
22:30:27 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well how else would it guard against that
22:30:30 <AnMaster> it must special case
22:30:31 <Phantom_Hoover> No, that was an idiomatic statement with little meaning.
22:30:35 <AnMaster> it can't know your intention
22:31:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, it probably has special behaviour on rm, yes.
22:31:31 <Phantom_Hoover> zsh is basically the Emacs philosophy applied to a shell, remember?
22:31:49 <olsner> what! I liked zsh
22:32:00 <olsner> and now I hear it has something to do with emacs :(
22:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I said philosophy.
22:32:22 <Phantom_Hoover> They don't share a line of code.
22:32:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I have great respect for any program with a manual page that needs to be split across 17 files.
22:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I have scarcely touched its magnificence.
22:33:19 <Phantom_Hoover> I just use a zshrc I found online
22:33:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, is it 17 files?
22:33:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, 16.
22:34:05 <Phantom_Hoover> The 17th is everything glued together.
22:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> It's still very impressive.
22:34:33 * AnMaster waits for slow youtube
22:34:34 <olsner> bash's is probably about the same size, except they never bothered splitting it
22:34:56 <AnMaster> olsner, I love emacs and hate zsh
22:35:00 <AnMaster> well not hate
22:35:07 <AnMaster> I just think that bash is enough
22:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought zsh was the union of all other Bourne shell derivatives.
22:35:19 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also how do you fix that zsh doesn't treat # as a comment in interactive shell
22:35:21 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, but it's so convenient!
22:35:26 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, that is my main irritating with zsh
22:35:27 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
22:35:37 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I tend to comment out line temporarily to put them in history
22:35:38 <Phantom_Hoover> There's probably an option for that.
22:35:40 <AnMaster> then go back up
22:35:40 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:35:41 <olsner> I used zsh furiously until I stopped caring about shells and went to the default one instead
22:35:46 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, yes but which one
22:35:54 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I never found it
22:35:57 <Phantom_Hoover> That way madness lies.
22:35:58 <cpressey> csh. For great justice!
22:36:25 <AnMaster> cpressey, I sshed to systems where pdksh is default and only shell
22:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, INTERACTIVE_COMMENTS perhaps?
22:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
22:37:06 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, hm I had to find the right zsh man page first
22:37:11 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, it is tricky :P
22:37:17 <Phantom_Hoover> setopt interactive_comments in .zshrc.
22:37:25 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, this is why Google is good.
22:37:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, also zsh doesn't do anything I want that bash doesn't. Bash 4 added the last feature I was missing
22:37:40 <AnMaster> which was assoc arrays
22:37:58 <Phantom_Hoover> The tab completion is very good.
22:38:06 <oerjan> 14:13:04 <ais523> as for oerjan's comment, I'm not sure I understand it
22:38:06 <oerjan> 14:13:14 <ais523> unless the lambdas are somehow evaluated at compile-time
22:38:06 <oerjan> 14:13:21 <ais523> or it has "lambdas" that aren't closures, or something
22:38:07 <oklopol> "<cpressey> I guess you can't return functions from functions in FALSE, and yes, that would be critical to e.g. building lists from them." <<< cps
22:38:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I have trouble doing without it.
22:38:10 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, I never had issues with bash tab complete
22:38:21 <oerjan> i assume not being closures is what i meant
22:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> zsh's isn't necessary, just very helpful.
22:38:58 <Phantom_Hoover> You don't even need to use ls when you have it.
22:39:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, sort of.
22:39:20 <Phantom_Hoover> It doesn't include some file types.
22:39:30 <AnMaster> um
22:39:36 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, so how to do ls -li
22:39:41 <AnMaster> with pure zsh
22:39:41 -!- ehirdiphone has joined.
22:39:49 <ehirdiphone> X
22:39:56 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, OK, "don't need" was wrong.
22:40:00 <AnMaster> righ t
22:40:00 <ehirdiphone> ais523: cpressey hi!
22:40:03 <AnMaster> right*
22:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover> It's just not necessary as much.
22:40:06 <AnMaster> and now. night
22:40:20 <ais523> ehirdiphone: hi
22:40:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Also, it can tab-complete options for a lot of programs.
22:40:31 <cpressey> cpressey: Hi!
22:40:32 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: bash has stolen that feature
22:40:34 <cpressey> No, wait
22:40:39 * cpressey thinks
22:40:45 <ais523> it's a good one, but not zsh-unique any more
22:40:49 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Hi, ais523!
22:40:51 <ehirdiphone> I love-hate skin cream.
22:40:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Hmm, OK.
22:41:09 <oklopol> "<ais523> if you translate all the words back into their original meanings" <<< why would you translate to original meanings when you could just use the current meanings?
22:41:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, and the prompts can be incredibly pretty.
22:41:21 <ais523> oklopol: because the current meanings are incorrect?
22:41:34 <oerjan> cpressey: you seem to be having a nick identity crisis?
22:41:38 <ehirdiphone> If it wasn't for E45/HC45 (ok, and antihistamine) this eczma would be unbearable.
22:41:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:41:50 <ehirdiphone> OTOH it feels icky.
22:43:19 <oklopol> ais523: what do you mean?
22:43:39 <ais523> most swearword meanings don't come from anywhere
22:43:45 <ais523> people just use them
22:44:27 <oklopol> kinda like "dog" is meaningless, people just use it
22:44:39 <oklopol> i think you're just silly
22:44:40 <ais523> but its meaning comes from somewhere
22:44:41 <oklopol> that's okay
22:44:46 <oklopol> i have to go to sleep
22:44:48 <oklopol> err
22:45:14 <oklopol> sure, just like fuck and damn originally came somewhere and started to mean something else
22:45:50 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: I have forgone the idea of writing my OS by dismissing the very concept of an "Operating System" as outdated. I am instead writing my own Computing Environment.
22:45:55 <oklopol> although fuck still has its original meaning, i don't think damning is a very useful concept anymore
22:46:09 <oklopol> (except to you)
22:47:52 <oklopol> ->
22:48:43 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:48:54 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: I decided that,,, years ago
22:48:57 <ehirdiphone> *...
22:49:26 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
22:49:30 <ehirdiphone> Will ais523 still freak if I damn him? :)
22:49:59 <oklopol> that's what the discussion is about
22:50:00 <Gregor-W> cpressey: So, you're reinventing SmallTalk?]
22:50:06 <oklopol> (i'm gone though)
22:50:06 <Gregor-W> cpressey: Or are you reinventing EMACS?
22:50:17 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-W: But Better.
22:50:21 <oerjan> 12:04:22 <AnMaster> oklopol, prefices?
22:50:21 <oerjan> 12:04:30 <oklopol> prefix in plural
22:50:35 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:50:35 <ehirdiphone> Also, no snarkiness to cpressey. That's a rule.
22:50:43 <oerjan> that's not etymologically correct, since the original latin is something like "prefixum"
22:50:50 <ehirdiphone> Or at least, it is now.
22:51:05 <oklopol> oh, i would've thought because fix is fixes in plural
22:51:20 <oklopol> in any case it's prefices
22:51:22 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: These virii are destroying my prefices! Ow, my foetus!
22:51:25 -!- Gregor-W has set topic: Snarkiness tolerated and encouraged | Well, except for that | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D].
22:51:37 <oklopol> that's just how it is, deal with it
22:51:43 <ehirdiphone> A comedy of entymological errors.
22:52:08 <ehirdiphone> cpressey: So is your STUFF serialisable? Eh? Eh?!
22:52:09 <oklopol> foetus?
22:52:22 <oerjan> oklopol: well if you had a latin word "prefix", its plural could very well have been "prefices". 3rd declination.
22:52:24 <oklopol> is that the plural of foe
22:52:44 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
22:52:48 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: (It's mainly so I can use the letters CE and wave my hands over anyone antiquatedly using the letters OS, of course.)
22:53:20 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: My STUFF is serializable, but it's meaning is not always. Oooh! Deep!
22:53:23 <oklopol> oerjan: okay. it's still prefices. but x's turn to c's, no exceptions
22:53:26 <oklopol> *-but
22:53:34 <ais523> cpressey: aargh, "CE" and "OS" in the same sentence -> bad connotations
22:53:39 <oerjan> oklopol: ehirdiphone is merely spitting out some other common latin bastardizations
22:53:42 <cpressey> ais523: There is that, I realize/
22:53:42 <oklopol> in fact xylophone -> cylophones
22:53:51 <ais523> even Windows fans dislike Windows CE, as far as I can tell
22:53:58 <ais523> personally I've never used it, so I only have secondhand opinions
22:54:06 <oklopol> and what's foetus
22:54:08 <Gregor-W> Even people who work on Windows CE dislike WIndows CE :P
22:54:23 <oerjan> oklopol: sometimes in lating they turn to g instead. e.g. rex, reges
22:54:29 <oerjan> *latin
22:54:40 <oklopol> yes but not in english
22:54:53 <oklopol> in english they always turn to c's, except sometimes they turn into 2 c's
22:54:58 -!- micahjohnston has left (?).
22:55:15 <Gregor-W> lating (adjective): Pretentiously adding Latinate suffixes to Englishate words.
22:55:23 <oklopol> :D
22:55:39 <oklopol> don' be hatin' my latin'
22:56:17 <cpressey> Gregor-W: It'
22:56:30 <ais523> Gregor-W: *suffices
22:56:31 * ais523 runs
22:56:34 <oerjan> oklopol: foetus means a not yet born body. however the "correct" spelling is fetus, oe is a hypercorrection. iirc.
22:56:38 <cpressey> Gregor-W: It's fair to say that many WinCE at the thought, yes.
22:56:53 <ais523> the beauty of that pseudocorrection is that it fits the flow of the conversation just fine whether it's technically correct or technically incorrect
22:57:11 <oklopol> WinXE -> WinCEs
22:57:18 <Gregor-W> When pluralizing the word "suffix", it suffices to use "suffices".
22:58:04 <Gregor-W> Hm, I never thought about this ...
22:58:04 <oklopol> oerjan: i would say i knew that, but if that were the case then why would i have asked
22:58:10 <Gregor-W> NT4 -> 2000 -> XP -> Vista -> 7
22:58:16 <Gregor-W> Which one didn't deserve a number?
22:58:41 <oklopol> XP has a number?
22:59:02 <ehirdiphone> Oh god close call
22:59:11 <Gregor-W> If the latest version is 7, and that number is in the same series as NT 3 and 4, then 5 and 6 both had codenames. But which?
22:59:16 <oklopol> oh
22:59:23 <ehirdiphone> Heart beat entered stratosphere
22:59:25 <oklopol> that's what you meant
22:59:30 <Gregor-W> And if that number isn't in the same series as 3 and 4, then why did they pull a number out of their asses? :P
22:59:49 <ais523> they did pretty much pick a number that sounded good for marketing
22:59:54 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: OK, um, well, if I'm actually thinking about my own CE, which I'm not officially, but anyway, I'm toying with the idea that STUFF is SExps + meanings for those SExps, where meanings are expressed as rewrite rules, which are denoted with SExps. (This is all leftover from Rho.) That makes them trivially serializable.
23:00:02 <ais523> but if it helps, Vista is 6
23:00:04 <oklopol> "the lucky os"
23:00:13 <ais523> and XP is either 5 or 4, i forget which
23:00:38 <Gregor-W> If XP is 4, then it'd been 4 since the mid-90s, and 5 just got lost :P
23:00:39 <ehirdiphone> Someone ask me why I almost had a heart attack
23:00:44 <cpressey> And if the receiver doesn't like the meanings you're sending them, they don't have to use them. I was reading about Nock and Urbit and thinking about how crude some parts of it are.
23:00:47 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: OK
23:01:00 <cpressey> ehirdiphone: Why did you almost have a heart attack, anyway?
23:01:01 <Gregor-W> Not unlike ipv5 I suppose.
23:01:01 <oerjan> ehirdiphone: i'm assuming someone checked upon your room, or something?
23:01:04 <ais523> ehirdiphone: can you imply the question?
23:01:13 <ehirdiphone> oerjan: yeah
23:01:42 <ais523> try running around in circles a bit or something to burn off the excess blood sugar
23:01:44 <ehirdiphone> [knock] [door opens] "sorry didn't realise you were in bed"
23:01:58 <ais523> it's 11pm
23:02:01 <oklopol> yesterday i was waiting for people to ask me to eat, and when they asked, i almost had a heart attack because the silence was broken
23:02:06 <ehirdiphone> Had <1sec to lock it so no light and hold it off edge of bed
23:02:18 <ehirdiphone> ais523: It is. And?
23:02:26 <ehirdiphone> Also, they'd hear that.
23:02:40 <ais523> ehirdiphone: assuming someone your age isn't in bed at 11pm seems implausible
23:02:47 <ais523> or am I years behind the time?
23:02:52 <oklopol> what
23:02:53 <oklopol> :D
23:03:03 <ais523> it'd be unreasonable to expect them to actually be /asleep/
23:03:03 <ehirdiphone> ais523: ...
23:03:08 <ehirdiphone> Try 1-2 am
23:03:12 <ais523> par for the course would be lying in bed pretending to be asleep
23:03:14 <oklopol> in ehirdiphone's age, assuming he's not drunk at 11pm seems implausible
23:03:20 <ehirdiphone> But here the bedtimes are enforced.
23:03:24 <ais523> whilst actually secretly reading a book or something, or I suppose using a mobile nowadays
23:03:36 <ais523> come to think of it, exactly what actually /was/ happening
23:03:40 <Gregor-W> Hahaha
23:03:42 <Gregor-W> "Book"
23:03:47 <ehirdiphone> ais523: We have a new system nowadays, it is called "fuck you parents"
23:03:49 <ais523> Gregor-W: I don't own a mobile
23:03:56 <Gregor-W> ehirdiphone: I wouldn't recommend it.
23:03:57 <ais523> I always used to illicitly read books
23:04:00 <ais523> while sitting on the windowsill
23:04:04 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-W: "I was Reading it for the articles"
23:04:25 <ais523> that way, I could get light (from the streetlights outside), whilst simultaneously leaving the curtains closed so nothing was suspicious
23:04:29 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Hardcore
23:04:33 <ehirdiphone> Illicit book Reading
23:04:39 <ais523> ofc I don't fit on the windowsill
23:04:41 <Gregor-W> See? Those articles of clothing on the chair in the background! Excellent articles!
23:05:08 <Gregor-W> Huh?
23:05:08 <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays
23:05:16 <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
23:05:32 <ais523> therefore, the only plausible reason to own playboy is because you're curious as to what the articles are
23:05:34 <Gregor-W> "I read Playboy for the articles, I use youporn.com for porn"
23:05:45 <ais523> or is something wrong with my reasoning here?
23:05:47 <ehirdiphone> Gregor-W: Iphone spell correction
23:05:55 <Gregor-W> ehirdiphone: Ah :P
23:05:57 <ais523> ehirdiphone: Reading is a city...
23:05:58 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
23:06:02 <HackEgo> 186|<ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
23:06:16 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Some people are dumb.
23:06:24 <cheater99> i have just restarted firefox after installing a slew of plugins. it looks like a ricer dashboard, and the actual webpage is 1/4 the size of the browser window. i'll have to configure all of that shit away.
23:06:29 <cheater99> hi ehird
23:06:32 <cheater99> what's up, dude?
23:06:33 <ehirdiphone> Also, computer in family space? But that's rare now.
23:06:35 <ais523> why did you install a slew of plugins?
23:06:45 <Gregor-W> cheater99: I recommend not installing a slew of plugins :P
23:06:48 <ais523> ehirdiphone: then just use it at 3am, or whatever
23:07:18 <cheater99> ais523: because. that's why.
23:07:29 <ehirdiphone> Most people can't delete browser history :P
23:07:35 <Gregor-W> Hilarity is a guy saying "I only read Playgirl for the articles"
23:07:54 <ehirdiphone> Wait. PLAYGIRL?
23:07:56 <ais523> ehirdiphone: I delete it every now and then just because it gets crufty
23:08:02 <ehirdiphone> Does that really...
23:08:03 <ais523> on Epiphany, at least, which is my cruft browser
23:08:03 <cheater99> is Gregor-W a markov bot?
23:08:14 <ais523> cheater99: I don't think so
23:08:17 <ehirdiphone> No, but you are.
23:08:22 <ais523> but you could probably replace 99% of IRC with a markovbot
23:08:23 <cheater99> no u
23:08:27 <ais523> and not see any noticeable difference
23:08:30 <cheater99> ais523: yes
23:08:31 <Gregor-W> `echo Nuh uh!
23:08:32 <HackEgo> Nuh uh!
23:09:04 <ehirdiphone> So.
23:09:09 <ais523> so what?
23:09:57 <oklopol> ais523: sex isn't rational, paying for a playboy might be sexier to some than looking at porn on the internet (although knowing you can get it for free might just render both uninteresting in that case)
23:10:23 <ais523> meh, I tried looking at porn a while back but couldn't really see the point
23:10:26 <ehirdiphone> Uninteresting because it's free.
23:10:30 <ais523> it fails at its intended purpose
23:10:30 <ehirdiphone> Porn.
23:10:35 <ehirdiphone> XD
23:10:47 <ais523> and I don't think it has a useful secondary purpose
23:10:56 <ehirdiphone> ais523: "making toast"
23:11:09 <ais523> after a while I just got bored and went back to watching tool-assisted speedruns
23:11:21 <Gregor-W> Still masturbating though.
23:11:27 <ehirdiphone> XD
23:11:28 <Gregor-W> Wow he beat world 4-3 faaaaaast
23:11:34 <ais523> Gregor-W: nah
23:11:47 <oerjan> ais523: why do you say you could probably replace 99% of IRC with a markovbot
23:11:50 <ais523> imagination > crappy reality, it seems
23:11:59 <ehirdiphone> Look at that gigantic, pulsating ...energy gun
23:12:02 <ais523> oerjan: because the other people would be markovbots too and couldn't tell the difference
23:12:13 <oerjan> ais523: please tell me more
23:12:28 <ais523> oerjan: heh, I'm not falling for /two/ lines of that
23:12:38 <oerjan> :D
23:12:40 <ais523> are you actually running an ELIZA-style bot, or just imitating one?
23:12:48 <oerjan> just imitating
23:13:02 <Gregor-W> Maaaan
23:13:09 <Gregor-W> You just reminded me of how much I wanted to implement botornot.com
23:13:15 <ehirdiphone> XD
23:13:23 <Gregor-W> Reverse Turing test with user-submitted bots.
23:13:46 <Gregor-W> The goal: Talk to a random stranger and try to convince them that you, rather than the bot they're also talking to, are a bot.
23:13:47 <ais523> ^style
23:13:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
23:13:55 <ais523> ^style nethack
23:13:55 <fungot> Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal)
23:13:58 <ais523> fungot: hi
23:13:59 <fungot> ais523: if you start at the office, and kill him not: then i knew it could below and between the chest by the tumtum tree, unless you like getting whacked with a one, the sort of giddy fever. he is the overlord over all of the lever well under, and the starlight, and then i'm sure you've got a wonderful programme lined up for this afternoon!"
23:15:09 <ais523> sorry, one of my friends asked what a markovbot was
23:15:12 <ais523> so I was generating an example
23:15:35 <ais523> hmm, if 99% of IRC was markovbots, what would they use as source material? other markovbots?
23:15:38 <ehirdiphone> Gravititty: a breast that generates its own gravity.
23:15:53 <ehirdiphone> ais523: ELIZA
23:16:19 <ehirdiphone> ELIZA Yudkowsky
23:16:22 <ais523> I tried connecting two ELIZAs to each other once, the results weren't pretty
23:16:42 <ehirdiphone> They start yelling at each other.
23:17:01 <ehirdiphone> "I ASK THE QUESTIONS HERE!"
23:17:03 <ais523> there should so be an elizalike which recognises copies of itself
23:17:07 <ais523> and jumps into a pre-scripted conversation
23:17:23 <Gregor-W> That seems bizarrely intuitive and intelligent :P
23:17:30 <Gregor-W> "Wait ... you're not another bot, are you?"
23:17:33 <Gregor-W> "You caught me, I am!"
23:17:41 <ehirdiphone> ais523: "Oh dear. I appear to have developed sentience."
23:17:46 <ais523> wow, .org is now completely ported to DNSSEC
23:17:48 <ais523> ehirdiphone: classic
23:18:19 <oklopol> "Okay I'll be Jack, you be Lizzy, 3-2-1-go."
23:18:42 <ais523> right at the end they should become aware that someone's watching their conversation
23:18:46 <ais523> and drop back into "stupid bot" mode
23:18:56 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, nice idea with that reverse turing test
23:18:58 <ais523> and act like they hope nobody noticed
23:19:37 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a variant of the Turing test where you have a human pretending to be a computer pretending to be a human
23:19:49 <ais523> the aim of it is to make the experimenter look foolish
23:20:08 <ehirdiphone> XD
23:20:28 <ais523> also, one of the best Slashdot polls ever is up at the moment: http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=2006&aid=-1
23:20:31 <AnMaster> <ais523> I tried connecting two ELIZAs to each other once, the results weren't pretty <-- yeah I tried two M-x doctor against each other. It goes like "Does it worry you that does it worry you that is this why you came to me?"
23:20:39 <AnMaster> and worse
23:20:51 <ehirdiphone> ais523: Is CowboyNeal an option?
23:20:54 <ais523> ehirdiphone: no
23:20:59 <ais523> but the poll somehow manages to be epic anyway
23:21:06 <ehirdiphone> ais523: sucks
23:21:10 <ais523> there are people trying to figure out the true distribution by analyzing the answers mathematically
23:21:14 <AnMaster> ais523, um I think we have a paradox here
23:21:32 <ais523> CowboyNeal's only been a poll option once in the last year or so, and he actually won
23:21:37 <ais523> although the question /was/ pretty stupid
23:21:41 <AnMaster> ais523, ah wait, people can actually select "Never submit an answer", they are the ones in "Sometimes submit a truthful answer while lying at other times"
23:21:59 <AnMaster> or always lie
23:22:15 <ais523> yes
23:22:16 <AnMaster> while always lie must be from somtimes or random
23:22:23 <ais523> again yes
23:22:30 <ais523> it's quite the logic puzle
23:22:36 <AnMaster> ais523, indeed!
23:22:47 <Gregor-W> Doesn't seem like all that much of a puzzle to me :P
23:23:46 <ais523> Gregor-W: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1695660&cid=32668048 if you want some fun
23:24:52 <ehirdiphone> ais523: One of my favourite polls:
23:25:13 <ehirdiphone> Which option will get the fewest votes?
23:25:20 <ehirdiphone> [ ] This one
23:25:23 <ais523> ehirdiphone: then five identical options?
23:25:26 <ehirdiphone> [ ] This one
23:25:32 <ehirdiphone> No, just 2.
23:25:41 <ais523> there should be four identical options, plus CowboyNeal
23:25:48 <ehirdiphone> If you can see the results it's intense.
23:25:49 <ais523> either that, or options with some connotation but with no context
23:26:21 <ehirdiphone> By definition most people lose.
23:26:27 <ehirdiphone> So
23:26:47 <ehirdiphone> Say you know the votes for A and B, A>B.
23:27:16 <ehirdiphone> Um
23:27:22 <ehirdiphone> I forget my reasoning
23:27:32 <ehirdiphone> Well
23:27:35 <ehirdiphone> Basically
23:27:40 <ehirdiphone> If you choose B
23:27:46 <ehirdiphone> You know others will too
23:27:53 <ehirdiphone> Since B is smaller
23:28:05 <ehirdiphone> Yurt nobody will vote a since it's bigger
23:28:23 <ehirdiphone> So vote A. But then what if everyone else uses the same logic?
23:29:21 <oklopol> that's some serious applied game theory man.
23:29:25 <ais523> ehirdiphone: always vote for the smaller at the moment. The reason is, if B never catches up to A, you're correct; if B ever does catch up to A, then at that point it will be symmetrical, and thus it doesn't matter which you chose by symmetry
23:31:31 <ais523> your reasoning only applies in the interesting case where everyone gets to see the votes, say, an hour after the poll opened
23:31:36 <ais523> but no future votes from that point on
23:33:00 <Gregor-W> That is seriously awesome :P
23:40:19 <oklopol> not really
23:43:02 <ehirdiphone> Bye
23:43:08 <oklopol> buy
23:43:10 <oklopol> ->
23:43:14 <oerjan> the bye
23:43:20 -!- ehirdiphone has quit (Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info).
23:43:25 <Gregor-W> What you really want to do is have versions of this where the results are only revealed at the end of the voting entirely, where the results are revealed immediately after voting, and where results which are N hours hold are revealed before voting.
23:43:57 <Gregor-W> The N-hours-before system might average out to a sine wave if you had enough voters :P
23:44:08 <Gregor-W> s/hold/old/
23:47:37 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, couldn't you play that music on zee with <audio>?
23:47:41 <AnMaster> at least as a fallback
23:48:09 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: Actually both systems suck, as neither provides even half-decent looping :P
23:48:23 <Gregor-W> But the looping on <audio> is GOD-FRIGGIN-AWFUL. It's amazing how bad it is.
23:48:31 <Gregor-W> On Firefox it's a joke. On Chrome there's a huge gap.
23:48:44 <Gregor-W> On Firefox you can't even reliably seek to the beginning of a stream. I kid you not.
23:48:47 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, well you could use some other language. Say, python
23:48:53 <AnMaster> not doing it in a browser I mean
23:48:53 <Gregor-W> ...
23:49:03 <Gregor-W> The offline version does not require Flash.
23:49:13 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, there is an offline version?
23:49:14 <AnMaster> yay
23:49:31 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, anyway, this is worse than <audio> since there is no sound at all without flash support
23:49:32 <Gregor-W> It's the same code, but it uses my JavaScript framework for writing online-offline code: http://codu.org/projects/gjs/
23:49:38 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I'm on Linux SPARC atm
23:49:44 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, flash is not ported to that
23:49:50 <Gregor-W> Wow, SPARC. That's ... actually really weird :P
23:49:58 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, well, UltraSPARC
23:49:58 <Gregor-W> gnemul works on Linux SPARC, doesn't it? ;)
23:49:58 <cheater99> what's going on kids
23:50:06 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, gnemul?
23:50:23 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, also this is not my usual system. I'm at a friend who owns an old ultrasparc
23:50:26 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, not mine
23:50:36 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, I could manage Linux on PPC32 myself
23:50:40 <AnMaster> no flash there either
23:50:56 <Gregor-W> AnMaster: Linux on SPARC has binary emulation for Solaris binaries. IIRC.
23:51:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, hm maybe
23:51:03 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, how does one use zee with gjs
23:51:13 <Gregor-W> At the moment, you don't :P
23:51:17 <AnMaster> oh
23:51:22 <Gregor-W> I mean, you could ...
23:51:29 <Gregor-W> But the data isn't in a conveniently packaged form right now.
23:51:38 <AnMaster> ah
23:51:41 <Gregor-W> The demo I slapped online was really just "here's the status, I'll put it online 'cuz why not"
23:51:55 <Gregor-W> It works perfectly offline, but the data is all floating 'round my various hard disks somewhere :P
23:52:18 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, anyway lots and lots of photos in each direction to create a denoised version. the noise level doesn't sink linearly iirc
23:52:48 <AnMaster> adding one image to the averaging halves it. Then you have to add two more to halve it again
23:52:49 <AnMaster> and so on
23:53:26 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, zee5 only according to web page source?
23:53:37 * AnMaster unpacked laptop now, on it
23:53:40 <Gregor-W> Eventually there will be different music per chapter.
23:53:43 <Gregor-W> Right now there's not.
23:54:00 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, how do you make vlc or mplayer loop?
23:54:20 <Gregor-W> Neither of them can loop perfectly, use mocp if you want that. Otherwise, mplayer -loop 0 <whatever>
23:54:27 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, mocp?
23:54:29 <Gregor-W> (By perfectly I mean seamlessly here)
23:54:38 <Gregor-W> It's a music player I use only for seamless looping :P
23:54:46 <AnMaster> heh
23:55:00 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, zee5.ogg from your website?
23:55:12 <Gregor-W> Yes?
23:55:13 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, as in http://codu.org/music/wipp.php
23:55:19 <Gregor-W> Yeah, 's the same one.
23:55:23 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, that can't loop properly can it?
23:55:27 <AnMaster> hm
23:55:32 <Gregor-W> It loops nearly seamlessly.
23:56:37 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, idea for making extrapolating more realistic: You need to select it in some way for it to work
23:57:08 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, shouldn't be impossible to let user select a bounding box and then check that to see if you should be able to extrapolate a reflection
23:57:10 <Gregor-W> Extrapolation is intended to be another option on the right. You click "extrapolate", then click the area you're trying to extrapolate from.
23:57:18 <AnMaster> ah
23:57:22 <Gregor-W> It is currently implemented as a bounding cube.
23:57:31 <Gregor-W> That implementation exists, but is unused in the demo :P
23:57:35 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, cube?
23:57:43 <Gregor-W> You have to be zoomed in sufficiently as well.
23:58:21 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, there should be a "go back" button from extrapolating, at least if you have several layers of extrapolating
23:58:49 <Gregor-W> Hm. That's a fair point. It is a maze, I guess I never thought about getting back :P
23:58:59 <AnMaster> Gregor-W, you know, like extrapolating from reflection in one person's eye who you extrapolated from the reflection on someone's wrist watch
23:59:02 <AnMaster> XD
23:59:16 <AnMaster> you might want to check the other guy's wrist watch too
23:59:20 <AnMaster> not just his eyes
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