00:00:54 Gregor-W, hm small detail: it might look better if the "enhance" blocky effect starts from the enhancing level you are at. As it is, if you enhance about from halfway it will first go more blocky in that transition 00:00:56 see what I mean? 00:01:45 I think I tried that at some point and didn't like it for some reason or another ... maybe just the effect wasn't as noticeable? Idonno. All these suggestions are things I could totally look at if I wasn't at work :P 00:01:50 ah 00:02:14 Gregor-W, well I'm trying to think of constructive things that might be feasible today 00:02:31 Gregor-W, just write a note about it. Or a note about checking the log when you get home 00:02:33 They are. Just not at work :P 00:03:23 Gregor-W, btw do you store multiple images on the server at different zoom levels? Or does it download the whole image at full res locally at the start? 00:04:02 I would recommend the later, especially if you get even more high res images. Yes I might help at some point. Don't really know anyone who could stage for stuff in the images though 00:04:04 It's essentially mipmapped, with the various zoom levels stored on the server. For one, zooming down the enormous source image is actually a really slow and awful procedure, and for two it's enormous :P 00:04:17 Gregor-W, how large is it? 00:04:30 Gregor-W, and the server sends a small section when at full zoom? 00:04:39 hm I guess jpeg actually make that feasible 00:04:39 Yes. 00:04:44 the block encoding 00:04:47 It's tiled, so you always request four tiles. 00:05:03 Gregor-W, anyway, about how large? I calculated one panorama I made was about 60 MP 00:05:10 that was 360° though 00:05:13 I don't recall. 00:05:27 I'll check, again, when I'm not at work X-P 00:06:21 Gregor-W, ah, thought you remembered give or take a few MP 00:06:43 I thought it was like 12MP, but I wouldn't be surprised if I'm off by a factor of two. 00:07:02 Gregor-W, and yeah, a "magic" way to denoise would definitely fit the theme as I said before. And I have yet to find any visible seam ;P 00:08:41 btw, actually extrapolating a crude image from a reflection in a shop window doesn't sound impossible. You could take an image with an item there and with it removed. Then the diff between them should give you some sort of image 00:08:45 Look at the front face of the building in the background, the second set of large windows from the left. 00:09:27 ah yeah 00:09:37 There's a noticeable discontinuous section. 00:09:43 yep 00:09:45 only if you zoom 00:09:47 That's the only one I recall. 00:09:48 Yeah 00:10:06 Gregor-W, could be fixed with shearing in gimp I suspect 00:10:17 'snot worth it X-P 00:10:20 Gregor-W, that way you could move the seam to the brick wall from the window 00:10:27 that way it would be less easy to notice 00:12:15 Gregor-W, oh and denoise might well make stuff readable that wasn't before. And details in dark areas more visible 00:12:18 Well gee ... looka there. My online sound looper actually supports HTML5 too, it just doesn't use it and isn't smart enough to determine at runtime whether to use it. 00:12:39 Gregor-W, do they play with getting info out of over/under exposed areas on CSI and such too? 00:12:45 Gregor-W, if yes I have an idea 00:12:50 https://codu.org/projects/zee/webhg/index.cgi/file/tip/gaplesslooper/gaplesslooper.js <-- see variable glUseSM2 00:13:16 AnMaster: Not sure ... usually it's just assumed that the photo is somehow magically perfect. If you're thinking HDR, I'm thinking AAAAAAAHHHH 00:13:16 Gregor-W, you commented it out according to a comment because it was so bad 00:13:25 Yup :P 00:13:32 Gregor-W, I'm thinking enfuse not HDR 00:13:56 Gregor-W, that is HDR without the 5 GB of 32-bit float per channel tiff 00:14:02 kind of 00:14:20 Gregor-W, you can do exposure merging with enfuse, not just denoising 00:14:22 32-bit? What are these, single-precision floats? SCREW THAT 00:14:27 Gregor-W, XD 00:14:50 Gregor-W, I don't think even photoshop supports that! 00:15:08 Gregor-W, also the developers didn't own IBM Roadrunner or whatever is fastest currently 00:15:31 wow think of the panoramas you could stitch with something on TOP500 00:15:39 Gregor-W, ^ 00:16:52 Gregor-W, saw that gigapixel panorama? 00:17:04 Gregor-W, it used flash iirc 00:17:11 The one of the canyon? 00:17:12 and automatic fetching more detail as you zoomed 00:17:17 Gregor-W, I forgot where it was 00:17:27 Well, how many gigapixel panoramas can there be? :P 00:17:31 Gregor-W, was a look from a balcony over some streets 00:17:40 Gregor-W, what is the canyon? 00:17:57 There's a gigapixel-or-so panorama of (IIRC) the grand canyon, or certainly some canyon. 00:18:04 ah not that one 00:18:12 Gregor-W, this one was from a balcony 00:18:23 A balcony not overlooking a canyon ;) 00:19:03 Gregor-W, overlooking some streets 00:19:29 Gregor-W, oh wait it was 13 GP iirc 00:19:40 if it is the one I found 00:19:41 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:19:44 That's a lot of gigapixels :P 00:19:52 Gregor-W, yes, like 13 of them 00:20:17 Gregor-W, anyway you need ram if you are going to do this with hugin. How much do you have? 00:20:31 ram is the most important bit. I can easily get things to swap trash 00:20:42 At home 4G. On my laptop which is all I have here a paltry 2G. 00:21:13 Gregor-W, hm 4 GB is going to help. And I could possibly enlist the help of someone with 8 GB. But he has slow comcast cable 00:21:17 so that is going to be slooow 00:21:35 I could also misuse Purdue machines ^^ 00:22:00 If I was really terrible I could misuse Microsoft machines, but they probably wouldn't appreciate me replacing the OS so *eh* 00:22:17 Gregor-W: do you actually work at Microsoft? 00:22:28 Just a summer internship. 00:22:32 ah 00:22:36 At MSR, not Microsoft proper. 00:23:03 my personal theory is that MSR's purpose is to hire a bunch of the world's best and brightest people and give them interesting jobs which they enjoy and help society as a whole 00:23:10 Gregor-W, purdue? 00:23:10 all for the purpose of preventing them working for Microsoft's competitors 00:23:20 Gregor-W, oh the uni 00:23:21 ais523: You hit the nail on the head. 00:23:41 ais523: They don't care if they're super-productive for MS, they care that they're not super-productive for e.g. Sun. 00:23:58 anyway, I want to post your whois info for the logs, just because they're so epic 00:24:07 Gregor-W, anyway I prodded that person. I can't access his system atm. He is having router problems. 00:24:08 [Whois] Gregor-W is 836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111 (proton.research.microsoft.com/131.107.65.111 - htt) 00:24:11 so no ssh atm 00:24:16 but sometime during this summer 00:24:36 Gregor-W, oh and it has dual xeon i7, so actual stitching won't take long ;) 00:24:44 quad core each 00:24:55 and hyperthreading. So 16 virtual cores 00:26:01 Gregor-W, the issue I see here is that I you would need to take all the images in one location, you couldn't take some here and some there really. And you would need some friends who would act. I don't know anyone who I could enlist for that. 00:26:20 You don't need friends who would act. 00:26:28 You're looking for clues, not looking to catch people in the act (necessarily) 00:27:25 Gregor-W, hm, So I would need to place stuff around? What sort of things are you thinking about. I don't think I could do bloody clothes easily ;P 00:29:00 Gregor-W, btw a tip if you are going to use enfuse to denoise: select to fuse exposure stacks before stitching. Not the other way around. Unless you have loads and loads of ram 00:29:12 since enfuse eats more ram than enblend 00:29:14 That's just the problem, thinking up storylines is step one, taking the photos comes from that. 00:29:27 -!- augur has joined. 00:29:40 Gregor-W, you want enfuse on smaller stuff then enblend on the denoised images 00:30:36 Gregor-W, oh and align_image_stack should do a good job on a stack of photos just off by a pixel or so (which they will be unless you have a remote trigger for your camera! 00:30:58 Gregor-W, and what is the nice planned story line you mentioned you had come up with 00:31:05 I might be able to make valuable suggestions 00:31:21 To avoid flooding, I'll say it in PM 00:31:31 Gregor-W, good idea, to avoid spoiling it for everyone too ;) 00:31:38 Gregor-W, wait a sec, need to turn off +E 00:31:49 since you are not idented with nickserv 00:31:52 meh, #esoteric-blah was invented for that purpose 00:31:53 hm 00:31:59 wait, not +E? 00:32:02 what was it then 00:32:07 "like #esoteric, just spammier" 00:39:46 hmm, IRC is fun; I was in a discussion in another channel about the order in which the Pacman ghosts came in 00:39:53 and stumbled across http://www.destructoid.com/blinky-inky-pinky-and-clyde-a-small-onomastic-study-108669.phtml when trying to find out 00:40:07 if you were wondering where the names came from, there you go. 00:45:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:46:17 -!- augur has joined. 00:47:11 so 00:47:19 when I sit in traffic 00:47:31 I think an awful lot about queing theory and concurrency. 00:49:45 requested to be said in here for log: 00:49:48 Gregor-W, Gregor-W if I didn't enhance while zooming in it could use the original level of zoom I had before 00:50:15 Gregor-W, as in, up to the level you enhanced at it should use that level when zooming out from even more zoomed (but without enhancing) 00:51:51 and I think you could model concurrent relationships as a sort of space with some some sort of "transition rule" system... the most concrete example being cars on a road. The cars are the "actors" that have state (possibly FSM) on the resource space, the resource space is the road itself (the simplest model would just be a real number plane, but you could get more technical if you want to factor in physics), and the rules would b 00:51:54 essentially a fancier, concurrent cellular automata (that doesn't necessarily have cells. In the case of computer memory, it would) 00:52:52 I've got some notes for an esolang that explores this idea. 00:53:20 would be amazing to run on a 100 core machine. You could almost have a one-to-one relationship between cores and processes. 00:56:03 but yeah. That's my crazy idea for the day. If I refine it I might bring it up again to discuss it. 00:56:36 Gregor-W, see /msg again. Had great idea for the ending of the game 00:56:55 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:58:47 is there a facebook thing for linux or firefox that shows the 'notifications' button/menu? just like on the facebook page on the toolbar on top? 01:01:41 -!- Gregor-W has quit. 01:06:41 hmmm... anyone know how to set the default behavior of nautilus so that it opens directories in tabs instead of new windows whenever I click on something in places or on the desktop? 01:07:16 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:08:06 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:17:24 hahaha... it would be awesome if Nautilus allowed custom sorting information 01:17:50 like, I have a directory for all of my school work, organized by season and year. Would be awesome to "sort by season" 01:19:53 write a patch! 01:20:38 pah, writing a patch implies maintaining a patch. 01:21:43 when someone figures out a language that can automatically implement infinite backwards-compatability let me know. 01:21:56 probably requies boilerplate. 01:32:34 CakeProphet, you could take the patch upstream 01:35:32 is that sort of like time travel? 01:43:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:46:35 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 01:56:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Reboot). 02:04:15 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:07:17 -!- augur has joined. 02:08:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:08:34 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:17:53 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:32:15 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:32:31 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:33:31 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:45:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:54:29 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:00:34 -!- coppro has joined. 03:03:02 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:03:49 -!- coppro has joined. 03:17:56 Key changes are the bane of my existence. 03:20:25 :D 03:20:30 s/^/>/ 03:20:34 banes are generally associated with key changes in life 03:23:03 major changes more than minor ones 03:23:40 * coppro groans 03:24:29 on the other hand, such changes can also open new doors 03:24:57 needed more pun 03:40:52 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:45:46 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:46:16 -!- coppro has joined. 03:48:37 So what's the most intersting Lisp out there at the moment? 03:48:45 Anything with pattern matching? lazy evaluation? 03:56:25 I wonder if it's safe to blindly use fdupes to hardlink files across several chroots ... :P 03:56:40 lolwhut 04:02:02 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:03:06 -!- coppro has joined. 04:03:29 Since when does fdupes actually hardlink anythig? 04:07:37 -!- augur has joined. 04:09:19 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:11:16 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 04:18:10 Sgeo__: Since Debian made it useful. 04:18:19 Debian, per usual, is better than every other distro. 04:19:08 Even Ubuntu? 04:19:27 Ubuntu is just Debian minus the principles. 04:20:17 I'm not married to F/OSS principles 04:20:53 -!- bpc has joined. 04:21:00 I'm not "married" to it, but I'd rather use a distro with SOME kind of principles to it than Ubuntu's total lack of any. 04:22:01 Is that like saying "At least fundamentalist Christianity has a well-defined moral system"? 04:23:06 Touch sir. 04:24:08 -!- bpc has left (?). 04:29:48 fdupes is so slow when you throw it at gigs of data :P 04:37:19 well that's because it's all a sham. sir, you've been fduped! 04:45:47 question: how many people are awake? 04:47:44 4-5 billion? 04:53:48 on #esoteric 04:54:59 now that is a _much_ harder question to answer. 05:03:22 There are no people on #esoteric . 05:03:25 There are only ... 05:03:26 ROBOTS 05:03:31 Sexy robots 05:14:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:15:35 Once I heard someone was using complex numbers in accounting, so I tried, and failed, to figure out, but when doing so I succeeded at figuring out the use of matrices in accounting, and therefore I invented matrix accounting. 05:16:17 One of the rules is as follows: = 0 05:16:33 Another one is this: $|FSV> = 1 05:17:34 I want to see if you understand any of these things 05:17:49 it would appear that the company is both solvent and not until you actually observe it 05:19:00 * oerjan guesses BAL is balance, and has no idea what FSV means 05:19:34 oerjan: Actually, matrix accounting has not much to do with quantum mechanics, except for the similar notation. FSV means "Fiscal State Vector". 05:19:57 |FSV> represents the current state of all accounts and currency units. 05:20:08 ok 05:20:14 i still think the schrodinger company might be helpful for explaining the recent financial crisis 05:22:45 Here is a equation for a transaction: T - I = |Cash>$5.00 - |Sales>$5.00 05:23:18 Matrix accounting is actualy very useful for various things in my experience, one thing it is useful for is "what if" type questions. 05:31:33 -!- Halph has joined. 05:31:54 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:32:01 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 05:44:44 Do you like this equation? (This equation is only a simple transaction, there are also more complicated kinds where the effect on the accounts can vary) 05:46:09 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:46:52 i'm not really interested in accounting 05:48:00 That's OK. Do these equations I listed make much sense to you? 05:49:28 (The reason I know some things about accounting is simply because I happened to take that class in school. It is useful to know if I run my own business. I also took marketing, but the marketing class made less sense to me.) 05:50:07 -!- augur has joined. 05:52:33 zzo38: i have no idea what those mean 05:53:07 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 05:57:53 = 0 is the balance rule, which is that everything balances, for example, your assets on the left, liabilities and capital on the right, will balance. But this is more general 06:00:30 i guess i'm not very good at reverse-engineering, would have to know the exact definition of BAL and FSV 06:00:55 (at least i'm not good it when i have no idea what i'm looking for) 06:02:38 but anyway seems like accounting would be rather linear, so i can believe using linear transformations to describe whatever these rules might be about can be useful. 06:03:01 I just freed up 8GB on Codu by deleting entirely stupid things. 06:03:02 -!- Deewiant has joined. 06:03:04 Stupid disk space. 06:03:42 $|FSV> = 1 is the currency units rule. 06:03:44 how stupid? 06:04:21 The exact meaning of The exact meaning of |FSV> is the accounts and the amounts of money for each account. 06:04:42 i have no idea what FSV could be even though you said what it represents 06:04:52 oklopol: 2GB of PHP session data that apparently PHP forgot to delete. 3GB of logs. 1GB from hardlinking files between my many chroots. Various other things. 06:05:15 oh wait 06:05:24 is a vector, therefore is their scalar product, which the rule says must be equal to zero 06:05:27 just a vector of how much money on each account? 06:05:51 Gregor: okay those are pretty stupid 06:06:06 i thought you'd uploaded monkey porn or something 06:06:23 oh 06:06:27 No, the monkey porn isn't being deleted, that's the vital data. 06:06:31 definitions yay 06:07:12 err BAL = (1,1,...,1)? :D 06:07:28 i'm not very good at understanding language either 06:09:47 so now my understanding is =0 means total money in universe = 0 06:12:40 which i guess makes sense, still can't see what Cash and Sales are 06:14:02 oklopol: Yes, I think you can know what means now. 06:14:36 Gregor: i know we're just joking but i want to see the porn so bad it's hard not to ask you to link it. 06:15:55 Although one component of |FSV> must be the currency unit component which must be always 1, the corresponding component of Also, $ is a covector for only the currency unit component. 06:17:10 $ as in $ a b = ? 06:17:16 err 06:17:21 covector, so i guess not 06:17:43 oklopol: HAHA OF COURSE WE ARE JOKING and there's no reason for you to check your PM. 06:18:14 The $ does not mean $ a b = in this context. 06:18:59 ooh "monkey poo in da zoo 2" 06:19:03 i did love #1 06:19:25 oh 06:19:43 actually "$ is a covector for only the currency unit component" defines it completely 06:19:48 Please note that $ and oklopol: Yes that does define $ 06:20:05 yeah 06:20:10 i noted that 06:20:31 Cash and Sales? 06:21:09 i don't know what kind of input a transaction like T - I = |Cash>$5.00 - |Sales>$5.00 takes, and what it returns, account vector maybe? 06:21:42 All transactions take |FSV> on the right and transform |FSV> to their new value. 06:22:31 This simple transaction equation is simply where |Cash> and |Sales> are the counterparts to Gregor: do you have anything with anal? 06:23:30 oklopol: DOOD stop asking about animal porn on a public channel, people will think we're WEIRD. Keep it to /query 06:23:31 i mean 06:23:33 MORE anal 06:23:38 oh okay 06:25:07 I would also prefer it if you would please refrain from asking about porn on a public channel, in fact it is probably the Freenode network guidelines, I think. 06:25:07 Not just public channel, a publicly *logged* channel 06:25:48 sorry, we'll try to keep our perversions in pm as Gregor suggested 06:25:59 we just really like monkeys 06:26:04 anyway umm 06:26:11 i'm still a bit confused 06:26:13 Oook ook OOOOOK 06:26:19 Oh, sorry, got a bit excited there. 06:26:21 |Cash>$5.00 - |Sales>$5.00 turns a vector into a scalar 06:26:29 T - I turns a vector into a vector 06:26:47 therefore my brain gets confused. 06:26:51 :D 06:26:58 oklopol: No. Remember $ is a covector. Putting the vector on the left and covector on the right is a square matrix, or is a transformation. 06:27:22 oh $ is a vector there too 06:27:22 see 06:27:31 there i interpreted it as meaning 5 dollars :D 06:27:51 i figured you just used dollars as your scalars :-) 06:28:06 It *does* mean five dollars. That is why the $ is used to represent this covector! 06:28:26 (and constant multiplication would turn dollars into square dollars and so on, which we would identify with dollars...) 06:28:41 ah okay, after asking i did realize that might be the case. 06:28:50 so let's see if i can see why that makes sense 06:30:37 okay yeah 06:30:40 igi 06:31:02 (not exactly much of a feat i admit :P) 06:31:37 to T adds 5 dollars to cash and removes 5 from sales 06:31:52 *so 06:33:33 oklopol: Yes, that is it. (The reason for the minus sign is for balance. Cash is plus and Sales is minus, so you are actually *increasing* the amount of Sales (and earning five dollars by sales revenue), but it still uses a minus sign.) 06:34:19 Often in accounting reports, some accounts are on the left, and some are on the right. I am using minus signs for the accounts on the right. 06:35:29 Now, I must ask you this: Has *anyone* ever used Dirac notation in accounting before? 06:37:09 well you can do all this without dirac notation, so i believe a better question is whether people have done it with matrices, and my understanding is K or something is used in that sorts of stuff for instance, and it's a matrix panguage 06:37:11 *language 06:37:57 but do realize i have no understanding of the subject, so my understanding about what's used for it may not be very great either. 06:37:59 Of course you can do it without Dirac notation. I just found Dirac notation convenient to use here. 06:38:10 I would like to know if anyone has ever used matrices in accounting before, though, too! 06:39:37 well it might be convenient in your opinion, but i mean you can do this without dirac notation *by changing a few characters* so whether people would use dirac notation or not might be more about how much qm they know than about how convenient they like their notation. 06:40:33 well dunno, i have to go to uni, actually i should've left an hour ago but i wanted to learn about accounting because i wanna be a businessman when i grow up so i can buy a monkey farm. 06:40:36 -> 06:41:48 Also, something unrelated to matrix accounting now: http://www.lysator.liu.se/~jc/hacks/brainfuck.xslt 06:44:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 06:47:54 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:54:47 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:58:40 enfuse is noyce 07:06:45 -!- tombom has joined. 07:36:25 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:36:39 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:36:55 -!- coppro has joined. 07:41:32 on the other hand, such changes can also open new doors -- it can be a portal to a new life? 07:41:49 Gregor, thanks for liking my idea 07:42:03 Gregor, you can twiddle parameters but probably not needed 07:42:17 With CHDK, I can make my camera do most of the work for me too :) 07:42:45 Gregor, ooh you can do the "change focus of image" stuff they did in CSI or something like that once. But that needs a remote trigger most certainly and it tends to increase noise 07:42:58 Gregor, what I'm talking about is exposure merging 07:43:10 Gregor, CHDK? 07:43:18 Canon Hacker's Development Kit 07:43:20 err 07:43:23 focus merging 07:43:25 It's a cool alt firmware for Canon digital cameras. 07:43:42 I'm not yet fully awake 07:43:56 ah that 07:44:17 Gregor, anyway, enfuse can with different parameters try to merge where image is sharpest instead 07:44:33 Gregor, it is however tricky to get right 07:44:35 I never managed 07:44:57 Dern laptop, I'm swap-thrashing. 07:45:11 Gregor, oh you are using enfuse I gather? ;P 07:45:35 Gregor, enfuse makes me feel I'm in the future. But it also makes me very aware of that my laptop is not 07:45:47 even less so my desktop 07:47:04 It has a very simple sharpness-measuring thing, IIRC. Basically just a contrast measure. 07:49:15 right 07:49:34 Gregor, I'm sure fizzie can use some high end cluster to do this 07:49:41 like he did when generating some fugot dict 07:49:59 ;) 07:51:01 On this one test picture, something in the process is making the edges all black, even though they're clear in the original ... 07:51:15 (I'm just fusing four photos of the same scene right now) 07:51:49 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:52:08 Gregor, um. How strange. Though did you align the images before? Even half a pixel movement or such must be corrected before fusing 07:52:27 They're aligned perfectly. 07:52:48 Gregor, used align_image_stack ? 07:53:21 I would use align_image_stack -p 07:53:29 then use hugin to set enfuse then use that 07:53:44 There are some programs that are explicitly for extended-DOF image merging, those might be smarter. Though Helicon Focus at least is commercial. CombineZ (at least some version) is GPL but Windows-only. 07:53:59 fizzie, DOF? 07:54:12 Depth-of-field. Focus-merging. 07:54:15 ah 07:54:36 They're aligned, the problem is with exposure setting, not alignment. 07:54:44 Although actually it's just the original was overexposed and it's overcompensating. 07:55:06 Gregor, ah... 07:55:18 Gregor, let me find you the relevant parameter to twiddle 07:55:21 It's funny how photographers try to extend DOF, while 3D renderers/raytracers try to fake in a limited DOF. 07:56:03 Gregor, twiddling with the parameters --saturation-weight=WEIGHT --exposure-weight=WEIGHT might help 07:56:38 Gregor, values are floats in the closed interval [0,1] 07:56:56 For simple noise-reduction, I've usually just done align_image_stack -a align inputs ; enfuse ... align*.tif ; rm align*.tif without bothering to involve Hugin. But any way you prefer it, of course. 07:58:03 I just tried again and it got it right :P 07:58:08 Gregor, heh 07:58:32 Gregor, anyway this is definitely a form of enhancing that the game should have IMO 07:58:43 Future work. 07:58:58 Left as an execise for the player. 07:59:02 fizzie, XD 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:26 -!- augur has joined. 08:03:37 "Proof by intimidation: 'Trivial.'" 08:03:48 XD 08:04:27 "Proof by appeal to intuition: Cloud-shaped drawings frequently help here." 08:04:43 (One) list at http://www.onlinemathlearning.com/math-jokes-mathematical-proofs.html 08:05:42 fizzie, also disproof by convenience (forgot where I heard this): "If that was true we wouldn't be able to do the sums!" 08:05:47 mostly physics I think 08:06:58 fizzie, do you get the 'Proof by Tessellation: "This proof is just the same as the last."' ? 08:07:08 I thought tessellation was some 3D thingy 08:07:17 3D graphics 08:10:09 It's also a tiling pattern with no gaps, but I'm not sure about the name either. 08:10:43 (In addition to the usual 3D graphics polygon-splitting meaning.) 08:11:04 ah 08:11:34 somehow "also" in your first line indicated the "in addition to" bit already ;) 08:12:03 "Proof by cumbersome notation: Best done with access to at least four alphabets and special symbols. " <-- no, that is just standard math 08:12:29 wait hm 08:12:30 I guess it's from the "made out of identical shapes" bit of http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tessellation.html but it's a bit of a scretch. 08:12:32 I only get 3 08:12:35 Latin, Greek, hebrew 08:12:45 when thinking about how much would be feasible to combine 08:15:07 hm 08:15:58 fizzie, I always felt that references to not yet published papers shouldn't be allowed 08:16:08 it's cheating kind of 08:19:35 Well, it depends. If it's an already-accepted journal article that will just take a year to go through the publishers machinations, I do think you can stick an "in press" citation. But referring a completely non-existing paper is a different thing. 09:31:16 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:53:59 -!- sanjoyd has joined. 10:07:26 -!- wareya_ has joined. 10:09:59 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:36:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:39:22 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 12:03:53 Did GreaseMonkey just call all IRC clients "scripts"? 12:04:26 Or do mIRC scripts have a tendency to get themselves mentioned in default quit messages? 12:04:37 (I can't imagine, say, XChat or irssi scripts being so malicious) 12:04:45 Sgeo__, the latter 12:04:53 I think 12:04:56 not 100% sure 12:05:33 hm 12:05:47 should I put up with slow computer, or should I try to cross compile a kernel 12:06:07 * Sgeo__ ex-headaches 12:06:16 For the past hour or so, I have been in pain 12:06:16 which is least painful: unpacking and compiling a linux kernel on a pentium3 or should cross compiling from amd64 12:06:35 Sgeo__, alvedon or whatever it is called usually helps for me 12:07:14 I took Tylenol (paracetamol) about an hour ago 12:07:40 Let me clarify: I only started keeping track of time when I took it 12:08:48 Can I just say that I love modern medicine? 12:14:03 There is a group on Facebook "Over Dosing on Ibuprofen and Extra Strength Tylenol! :D" 12:14:36 There's an ad "I love programming" 12:14:51 It has someone holding a sign saying "Will code HTML for food" 12:15:03 http://www.facebook.com/iloveprogramming 12:16:12 o.O there's a "What's your favorite language?" thing. Several people said PHP 12:16:16 I'm going to go cry 12:18:42 Then again, there's some assembly love 12:19:13 "PHP, MySQL, HTML5, CSS3, and Javascript" 12:19:49 But then, the group pic apparently depicts an HTML coder 12:19:50 I took Tylenol (paracetamol) about an hour ago <-- iirc that is the same thing as in alvedon 12:21:20 Maybe I shouldn't be staring at a screen so soon after a headache 12:22:19 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=288817&id=124438437575957 12:22:47 Looks like an old pic. IE7, and no Chrome 12:43:19 Going to watch some SGA 12:52:16 -!- sanjoyd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 13:18:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:33:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:37:31 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:49:34 Future work. <-- Past hopelessly broken. 13:56:48 There is a group on Facebook "Over Dosing on Ibuprofen and Extra Strength Tylenol! :D" 13:56:57 is the smiley included in the group name? 13:57:55 which groups can smileys be embedded in? they are symmetric at least so i don't see why that wouldn't work 13:58:17 >_> 13:58:48 indeed 13:58:52 not all are 13:59:14 THAT WAS _NOT_ WHAT I MEANT 13:59:26 :-------------------) 14:00:17 How many symmetric smilies (left-right) are there? 14:00:29 ^_^ 14:00:53 well that's easy, the number of orbits is just the average number of fixed points of the group elements 14:01:30 my references are really obscure, if only these were at all funny! 14:01:34 Sgeo__: so, _is_ the smiley included? 14:02:10 oklopol: are you secretly NonsensicalAnalogy from reddit? 14:02:40 Yes, the smiley is included in the name. 14:02:41 :D 14:02:42 who's that 14:02:49 I am NOT happy about that group existing. 14:03:20 Sgeo__: i've read overdosing on tylenol (paracetamol) is _not_ a laughing matter 14:03:30 oerjan, yeah 14:03:35 why not? 14:03:39 a _very_ painful way of dying 14:04:02 then interesting to group it with ibuprofen 14:04:07 it takes a week for your liver to break down, or something 14:04:52 and after a day there is _nothing_ medicine can do to prevent it 14:04:55 * Sgeo__ knows little about ibuprofen 14:05:06 ibuprofen is for kids 14:05:15 hey _i_ use ibuprofen 14:05:28 :O 14:05:39 * Sgeo__ uses Tylenol, but nowhere near the dosage printed 14:06:09 It says 2 pills every 6 hours, I pretty much never do more than 1 every 24 14:06:18 erm, not sure about the 6 hours 14:06:46 me too 14:07:35 well it says 1-2 pills up to four times a day 14:09:11 (this is my ibux (ibuprofen) i'm talking about) 14:11:18 only the weak have headaches. 14:11:26 nowadays i have headaches almost every week 14:11:28 i never used to 14:11:29 i hate it 14:11:38 i've never claimed to be strong, that i can recall 14:11:48 mainly because i hate taking the drugs, and then i just get nothing done 14:12:27 oerjan: that's just one of my trademark ways of expressing things 14:12:46 if you are having them every week, then i'd imagine the first tip is to stop whatever is making you have them 14:12:52 :P 14:13:17 i believe that's sleeping highly irregularly and eating too much, i'm full almost around the clock 14:13:44 easier said than done though, especially as it's not really a problem so i don't have that much incentive. 14:13:48 -!- cpressey has joined. 14:14:07 i love eating 14:14:58 * oerjan starts adjusting his inner image of oklopol from being a thin guy 14:15:17 i'm 180 and i weigh 85, but i look thinner than that 14:15:29 (according to people) 14:15:39 i'm not really thin, but i'm not fat either, yet 14:16:27 before my dad had his heart attack, he used to weigh something like 110, and had been that way for ages, same with my second order father 14:17:32 also my uncle died at like 40, some kind of clot in his brain and the guy just suddenly collapsed 14:17:36 * oerjan used to be not really think but not fat either 14:17:38 *thin 14:17:48 wait you're not thin? 14:18:35 well i'm not _very_ fat yet 14:19:02 Gregor: op13 is great btw, first one of yours i hear i don't feel needs tiny changes every now and then (i feel that way about most music) 14:19:09 maybe not the first one 14:19:11 but anyway 14:20:20 most of my own music requires tons of corrections imo, but i rarely do it, once a part has been written, changing it is murder. 14:20:40 murders of note 14:20:50 idgi 14:21:13 "of note", notes, right? 14:21:34 oh well yes that *was* what i meant 14:21:54 i thought it was a reference to something else 14:22:43 "of note" is a phrase 14:23:22 oh hmm yes looks familiar, not familiar enough i guess 14:23:32 (i know what it means) 14:23:49 there are even google hits for "murders of note" 14:24:11 http://www.snarlyboodle.com/famous-unsolved-murders/ (but for some reason it failed to load for me) 14:24:12 yeah right. prove it 14:25:16 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:28:35 Gregor: although the parts i most like are from 12 i think 14:30:41 (and yes, i know you prefer useful data over vague goodness assessments, but i'm not feeling particularly musical atm) 14:31:16 wait, music involves useful data? 14:32:19 while you were joking, i will answer seriously, by useful data i mean an attempt at explaining where exactly my opinion comes from, that would at least make me a slightly more usable statistic. 14:34:06 ah but don't you know that people decide their opinions first and make up / delude themselves into thinking they had reasons afterwards? 14:34:16 oerjan, there are music based esolangs 14:34:20 so obviously yes 14:34:23 maybe stupid people 14:34:28 is my opinion 14:34:35 XD 14:35:05 * oklopol has an element in every open set atm, and doesn't get the joke 14:35:16 * oerjan gets that 14:35:29 oerjan, useful data in music: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=music 14:35:46 oh 14:35:50 oklopol: well you're better than AnMaster, he seems not to have realized it _was_ a joke 14:36:31 (the joke was a vague insult that music is all about vague goodness) 14:36:34 oerjan, ... you didn't realise what I said was a joke as well? Or was that a meta joke you just said? 14:36:46 AnMaster: YOU WILL NEVER KNOW 14:36:49 har 14:36:57 oh umm you mean what AnMaster said was a joke? that's what i didn't get, but then realized he didn't mean it as a joke, was an answer to an earlier thing 14:37:20 so i did get your joke, just not the one that wasn't one 14:37:25 ok now i don't get it any more 14:37:44 * oerjan runs away screaming 14:37:51 oklopol, it was a joke answer to oerjan's joke! 14:37:52 ffs 14:38:33 yeah sorry i typed slowly and didn't read what you said 14:38:37 okay so explain 14:38:44 oh 14:38:50 but answer to the useful data thing? 14:38:56 oklopol, yes 14:39:06 oklopol, but explaining a joke ruins it 14:39:09 not the one to which it makes no sense as an answer, got it 14:39:16 oklopol, but if that is what you want, just ask 14:39:59 Murdered jokes of note. 14:40:19 i would say we have ruined the jokes thoroughly at this point 14:40:23 :D 14:40:31 i wish i knew more math terms 14:40:45 substituting definitions for them is fun 14:40:57 shit, terms 14:41:05 too late i guess 14:41:13 what? 14:41:31 oerjan, we could go on and explain the explaining 14:41:41 i could've substituted the definition of a term in a term algebra 14:41:47 ...that might've been a bit long 14:41:49 hm should check how many iterations of that they are at currently 14:41:57 AnMaster: poor collector guy today 14:42:04 oerjan, yep 14:42:05 oerjan: well i meant like the element in open set thing 14:42:17 jane goodall can be so mean 14:42:18 oerjan, personally I don't think he is poor. It is obvious now isn't it? 14:42:27 oerjan, all the strange things he has collected for 14:42:30 wait, what 14:42:33 oerjan, he is running a scam! 14:42:40 or rather: several scams 14:43:02 do you contain an open ball around all your points to the idea of talking like this 14:43:08 AnMaster: hm didn't he work for the nigerian finance minister at one point? or am i confusing him with shakespeare 14:43:36 oerjan, you know, that sentence really sounds weird out of context 14:43:42 or that line rather 14:44:10 AnMaster: i decided to revel in that fact 14:44:17 i guess it's not the way to speak that contains finite supremums and contains all downward cones of its points. 14:44:38 i think i failed to convey the latter one :D 14:44:45 oklopol, I completely lost you 14:45:26 * oerjan does not recall the latter term 14:45:35 AnMaster: the game is to take sentences with mathematical terms and substitute them for their definitions. 14:45:59 oh you were discussing something else 14:45:59 that explains it 14:45:59 well i can easify it, wait a sec 14:46:36 i guess it's not the way to speak that is closed under addition and multiplication by any scalar. 14:46:40 oklopol, so you mean you take x ^ 3 = 3 and turns it into x * x * x = 3 ? 14:47:19 oklopol: the vector space way to speak? now you are making no sense! 14:47:28 a bit like that but not really 14:47:36 oklopol, was that to me or oerjan? 14:47:45 oerjan: urgh scalar was a bad term, i'll try one more time 14:48:15 i guess it's not the way to speak that is a subset closed under addition and multiplication by any element of the superset. 14:48:32 ah 14:48:47 no, no it is not. 14:49:01 Hey, that's almost as good as speaking Navajo. 14:49:52 oklopol, what was your original sentence? 14:50:16 not the ideal way to speak 14:50:31 first order theoretic definition (badly worded), then algebraic 14:50:37 oklopol: ok i didn't recall that the lattice version was called that as well 14:50:39 oklopol, ... I was not playing the game, I was making a meta question about it. 14:50:39 (well for rings in particular) 14:50:58 AnMaster: i thought i answered 14:51:02 oklopol, hm 14:51:09 oklopol, " first order theoretic definition (badly worded), then algebraic" that line? 14:51:12 or " not the ideal way to speak"? 14:51:19 first order? i finally recognized it as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_(order_theory) 14:51:22 ideal 14:51:35 ah 14:51:36 err first order-theoretic ... 14:51:59 add an article if you like 14:52:18 I think I'll be a spectator here. This obfuscation is way out of my league :P 14:53:32 oerjan: your turn! :D 14:53:43 your 2pi 14:53:51 (from the "pi is wrong" article) 14:54:54 or don't you have the sets containing every point at at most a given distance for it? 14:55:32 AnMaster, are you sure that's the 90-degree approach? 14:55:38 See, I can only do really lame ones. 14:55:53 * AnMaster defines radians in terms of degrees to annoy the mathematicians 14:55:58 oklopol, oerjan ^ 14:56:00 you should've sub'd approach too :P 14:56:22 oklopol, with what? 14:56:23 oklopol, as I said, I can only do really lame ones. 14:56:27 or wait 14:56:47 If "approach" is a maths term, it is WAY outside my knowledge. 14:56:49 oklopol: i wish to officially add all limit points to this game 14:57:09 :( 14:57:17 cpressey: tend to 14:57:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:57:38 (it hurts _my_ brain) 14:57:47 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:58:11 okay my response to that will be completely incomprehensible, but i'll have to check this one -> 14:58:31 heh 14:58:36 It's a good generator of word salad, though. "AnMaster, are you sure that's the 90-degree tend to?" 14:58:42 cpressey, I fail to reverse engineer your one 15:00:53 oerjan: that's not at all, when considered a set of disjoint intervals, such that if an instance is in the language, then there must be an interval in it such that the maximum witness of x is in that interval. 15:01:11 *must be an interval in the set 15:01:16 ("nice") 15:01:29 cpressey, wait, "90 degree approach" can't be a substitute for "right way"? I hope it isn't 15:01:35 because that makes no sense 15:01:47 thank god you gave the translation 15:02:02 oerjan, you couldn't figure it out either? 15:02:08 oerjan, anyway it can't be that one 15:02:18 since it could mean "left" as well 15:02:19 AnMaster: i'm talking about oklopol's last one 15:02:46 90 degree meant right 15:03:14 oklopol, depends on which way your you define positive rotation. Clockwise or counterclockwise. 15:03:20 AnMaster: a 90 degree angle is "right", no left option there 15:03:21 nope 15:03:25 yeah 15:03:29 oh _that_ right 15:03:32 as in right angle 15:03:33 No one calls them "left triangles" 15:03:34 yeah 15:03:42 Though, I should start. 15:03:55 oerjan, anyway it doesn't work on a sphere afaik? 15:03:56 left sets! i saw them when checking up that definition 15:04:05 -!- coppro has quit (Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode.). 15:04:11 AnMaster: what doesn't work? 15:04:17 that they sum to 180 15:04:22 indeed not 15:04:41 oerjan, right angle in non-euclidean geometry doesn't have to be 90° afaik? 15:04:55 the difference from 180 is the integral of curvature in the area inside the triangle, iirc 15:05:50 I might completely misremember of course 15:05:51 i.e. for a sphere it's proportional to the area 15:06:55 AnMaster: right angle is still 90, it's _locally_ euclidean and the angle is a very local property near the intersection 15:07:44 so left set, it is what i recalled, if L \in NP then there's a polynomial p and a language A \in P such that given the right witness of size p(|x|) A calculates whether x is in L in time p(|x|), then we define Left(A, p) = {(x, y) | x \in {0, 1}^*, y \in {0, 1}^p(|x|), and there is a w \in {0, 1}^p(|x|) such that w>=y and (x, w) \in A} 15:07:49 so 15:07:55 in other words 15:08:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:08:17 pairs containing words in the language, and strings that are to the left of some proofs for them 15:08:25 *proofs for the word in the language 15:08:27 -!- augur has joined. 15:08:27 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:08:33 oerjan, there are other variants than spheres tough? What was the name of the one where the triangle angle sum was less than 180 instead? 15:08:36 -!- augur has joined. 15:08:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:08:45 -!- augur has joined. 15:09:00 AnMaster: i suspect that may be hyperbolic geometry? 15:09:00 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 15:09:28 oerjan, ah yes indeed 15:09:35 oerjan, quite overrated of course ;) 15:10:07 the hyperbolic plane has wang tiles too, and turns out the tiling problem is undecidable there too 15:10:31 ...just saying 15:10:59 Do infinite binary trees have undecidable tilings? 15:11:03 no 15:11:17 That's sad for them. 15:11:19 if some color can't be continued, remove it from your set 15:11:25 repeat until all can be continued 15:11:32 and then you can tile any way you like 15:12:20 in other words, for the cayley graphs of free finitely generated free monoids and groups the tiling problem is decidable 15:13:33 in the free abelian groups the problem has been completely solved (trivial once you know what the case with Z^2 is), but afaik this is pretty much all that's known about tiling cayley graphs 15:13:51 Interesting. 15:14:36 well, an interesting triviality: if a finitely generated subgroup is undecidable (that is, its tiling problem is), then so is the group 15:14:58 That seems intuitive. 15:14:59 this is because we can have sort of wires that make the group transmit stuff between the elements of the subgroup 15:15:27 yeah 15:16:49 for homomorphisms, neither direction is true, because homomorphisms add rather nonlocal structure (a homomorphism essentially identifies elements, and then identifies some more until the operations of the algebra start making sense again) 15:17:18 btw if this doesn't make sense, i should probably warn everybody i'm not trying to teach, i just really like talking about this. 15:17:20 :-) 15:18:04 well at least i think neither direction is true, that is, if X is mapped onto Y with a homom, i don't think the decidabilities of either imply the other 15:18:14 or wait i have to check that 15:19:00 okay so... free -> anything, if X is decidable, we can't say anything about Y, Z^2 -> Z so if Y is decidable, we can't say anything about X 15:19:22 (Z is decidable, Z^2 is undecidable, free is decidable) 15:19:28 so what else... 15:19:41 maybe i should consider doing something else for a while 15:20:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 15:20:33 i envy you 15:20:40 -> 15:21:07 I assume you mean oerjan 15:24:21 I wonder if there are certain infinite graphs which are only slightly more complex than binary trees, but not a full plane either, for which there are undecidable tilings. I would bet there are. (it's possibly implied by what oklopol just said, but there's no way I can wrap my head around all that) 15:35:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:36:42 Maybe an infinite tube. 15:58:08 -!- relet has joined. 16:11:05 Or an infinite magnet. 16:12:30 cpressey, how do you mean infinite magnet? 16:12:41 cpressey, like a bar magnet? 16:12:51 Just checking that you're paying attention. 16:13:15 I'm evil that way, you see. 16:13:48 cpressey, usually "Just checking that you're paying attention" means "oops I did an error but I don't want to admit it" in my experience 16:17:47 your mom is infinite. 16:17:48 In my personal experience, I have almost never heard people say that. If they want your attention, they whack a table with a yardstick. 16:17:56 oops I did an error but I don't want to admit it. 16:19:49 not that kind of error... ffs 16:19:50 bbl 16:20:46 * cpressey wonders why AnMaster keeps referring to BSD's Fast File System 16:31:55 cpressey, no it is an onemato sound 16:32:02 ...it is? 16:32:10 i thought you meant "for fuck's sake" 16:32:20 or were you not aware that's what it means 16:32:57 oklopol, that's an alternative explanation. 16:33:01 oklopol, which I do know about 16:33:06 okay 16:33:31 however the sound you mentally make when you feel like using "for fuck's sake" is basically "ffs" 16:33:46 so they happen to end up with the same meaning basically 16:36:49 i suppose that's true 16:54:16 http://sprunge.us/JXIe?make -- heh, that was messy. (I wanted it to keep the smaller of the files produced by "bzip2 -9" and "7z a -tbzip2 -mx=9".) 16:56:27 -!- tombom has joined. 17:03:51 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:04:19 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:05:27 fizzie, eh. why perl 17:06:31 fizzie, $(wc -c ...) on each file then if [[ $a -gt $b ]] basically? 17:06:38 seems simpler to me 17:08:06 I don't know, I just reached for Perl when it turned out there was no built-in bash way to get the size. 17:08:32 fizzie, well du -b or wc -c are the ones I would think of. iirc du -b is a GNU extension though 17:08:37 so wc -c should work better 17:08:44 if you need portability 17:09:31 (du without -b would give you in multiple of 512 bytes iirc, and rounded up to block size of fs) 17:10:06 I wonder why there is no kernel 2.6.34.1 yet 17:10:20 usually it doesn't take this long for the first patch level release to show up 17:10:20 AnMaster: Why perl? what Would Larry Wall Do? 17:10:32 The variable-swap ("($k,$s)=($s,$k)") is also perhaps cleaner in Perl. I wouldn't want to write an "if [[ ... ]]; then mv bzip2-x x; rm 7z-x; else mv 7z-x x; rm bzip2-x; fi" which is what I'd need. 17:10:55 CakeProphet, what would Guido van Rossum do though? 17:11:16 not that I agree with him. Just showing how absurd your argument was ;P 17:11:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:11:30 Python doesn't feel so naturally onelinerable. 17:11:36 fizzie, hm no you wouldn't need that in _bash_ 17:11:59 AnMaster: I think you take our conversations too directly. At least as of late. 17:11:59 fizzie, and you aren't doing posix sh anyway since then you would use [ ... ] not [[ ... ]] 17:12:06 I have been a bit more facetious than usual. 17:12:15 mhm 17:12:58 How would bash help in avoiding having to repeat the names? Is there a clever variable-swap in? 17:13:11 FUTURAMAFUTURAMAFUTURAMAFUTURAMAFUTUAMA 17:13:26 Mafutura. 17:13:36 Sounds vaguely Japanese. 17:14:22 fizzie, well I can think of several possible ways that could work. Haven't implemented any of them completely in my head yet 17:14:31 two involves eval ;) 17:14:42 fizzie: I've done some pretty ridiculous one liners in Python with generator expressions. 17:14:52 but 17:15:01 the third indirect variable, the forth a separate bash function. 17:15:03 for filesystem access and string handling... no Python is not quite as a one-linery 17:15:09 the fifth a bash array 17:15:23 fizzie, I think the variable indirection is probably the cleanest one 17:15:43 I think I'll stay in my Perl swap, thank you. 17:15:50 I wonder how Ruby fairs. I only know a little about it, but it borrows a lot from Perl so I bet it's good for these kinds of things. 17:15:54 fizzie, but perl has more than one way to do it as well! 17:15:58 ;O 17:15:59 ;P* 17:16:17 It's not like anyone's going to see this. (Well, assuming I'd stop pasting it around.) 17:16:18 Ruby has too many similar, but not identical, ways to do things 17:16:36 IIRC, there's a subtle difference between begin/end and {/} 17:17:20 I can't imagine why a language would have more than one way to create a block of expressions/statements 17:17:27 I can. 17:17:30 see: io 17:17:34 I can too. 17:17:38 CakeProphet, the language IO? 17:17:41 yes. 17:17:44 mhm 17:17:53 don't know it, guess I'll take a look later 17:17:53 I don't remember how it's capitalized. I think it's Io. 17:18:02 since it's named after the moon. 17:18:10 but it might be io 17:18:35 AnMaster: Pretty nifty. Suffers from a lack of a community, but it is very "pure" feeling. 17:18:41 like an OO Lisp. 17:19:07 though bash too has more than one way. but at least the semantics doesn't differ as such. It would be possible to replace if ...; then ... fi with [[ ... ]] && { .. } 17:19:11 well else would be a bit harder 17:19:12 or Smalltalk, but with more conventional syntax. 17:19:17 but quite feasible 17:19:40 but yeah... the different blocks in io control how the block is scoped. Lexical and dynamic. 17:20:27 hm 17:21:09 well, sort of. It's "methods" and "blocks". 17:21:20 but they're both block-like anonymous things in io 17:21:22 I really dislike dynamic scoping. There is no real benefit from it. Sure it allows more code obfuscation and some quite impressive hacks... but still 17:21:51 that is one of the main things I dislike with bash scripting. That and the tricks you have to do to return a string 17:22:33 one of the things I really like about io is it has optional lazy arguments. Basically give you lisp macro features. 17:22:55 the method function is how you define methods, for example. method(arg1, arg2, ..., code) 17:22:56 caller() { local foo="bar"; callee quux foo; echo "$foo" } callee() { printf -v "$2" "%s" "$1"; } 17:23:11 that is one of the _least_ messy ways to return a string without $() in bash 17:23:22 and $() has the issue of running in a subshell 17:23:36 so an changes to global variables would be lost after returning 17:24:22 yes "local" in bash means "won't be visible to your own callers" but it will still be visible to your callees 17:24:22 Why anyone writes anything in bash is beyond me. 17:24:47 cpressey, I wrote an modular irc bot in bash. Reasons: 1) why not? 2) just because I can 17:24:52 let me find the link 17:25:04 supports loading/unloading modules at runtime of course 17:25:04 hmmm... but in io it's not /really/ dynamic scoping. The only thing that's dynamically scoped is proto and self. 17:25:21 cpressey, https://launchpad.net/envbot 17:25:23 source somewhere there 17:25:30 cpressey, basically dead 17:25:47 since you can't easily wait on more than one fd in bash at the same time. 17:26:22 easily as in, "without an external helper program, or loading a *.so into bash" 17:26:31 the latter is possible 17:26:36 not a well known feature 17:26:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:27:26 Hi, everybody! 17:27:32 cpressey, now I wonder if you will look at that code or not hm 17:27:48 CakeProphet: How 'bout a block structure which takes which names should be dynamically scoped as arguments, and the rest are lexically scoped. Like: begin(self,proto) ... end 17:28:36 Hi, Phantom_Hoover! 17:28:47 cpressey, it uses a lot of less well known features of bash :) Such as extended posix regex matching, the /dev/tcp virtual device of bash (compile time option, debian turn it off for unknown reason, but you can use one of the other backends, like netcat, socat, gnutls-cli or openssl s_client) 17:28:52 AnMaster: For pure perversity, maybe I should instead: perl -e '%s = map {-s, $_} ("bzip2-$@", "7z-$@"); ($$k, $$d) = map {$$s{$$_}} sort keys %s; rename $$k, "$@"; unlink $$d;' 17:28:53 Yay, that's the closest anyone's got! 17:29:05 fizzie, EDONTKNOWPERL 17:29:16 fizzie, so I can't tell if that is better or worse 17:29:25 It has a great feature in that it may break if the file sizes are of different lengths. 17:29:35 (Because "sort" by default sorts lexicographically.) 17:29:46 fizzie, well don't use that then 17:30:06 or make it sort numerically 17:30:24 That's "sort { $a <=> $b } ...", which is a lot longer. 17:30:24 cpressey, oh and I did implement befunge93 in bash 17:30:29 but I have no clue where that code is any more 17:30:33 Especially with the double-$s from the Makefile embedding. 17:31:04 I started a Befunge93 in sed, and made a working playfield and some arithmetics, but never finished it. :/ 17:31:08 cpressey, I got stuck while trying to do 98 due to the large funge space and server other reasons 17:31:22 and stack stack looked like a pain too 17:31:32 at least if you want to avoid eval at all costs 17:31:45 which I did back then, not sure why 17:33:36 The playfield fetch code in sed is great: http://sprunge.us/GBAX 17:33:51 I'm not sure how a put in that data-structure would've looked like. 17:34:09 ouch 17:34:12 fizzie, 93? 17:34:21 ah yes you said so 17:34:37 Yes; a non-fixed-size playfield would be even worse. 17:35:08 fizzie, bash has one dimensional sparse arrays at least. Well nowdays it has assoc arrays too but it didn't back then 17:35:20 Well, not necessarily if you just made a list of cells and regex-searched in it, but that probably wouldn't be very fast. 17:35:47 that is why envbot contains a implementation of such functionality in bash using normal arrays and constructed variable names (like arr__) 17:35:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:36:08 of course that breaks on spaces and what lot so you have to be careful I did that by first converting it to hex values iirc 17:36:16 -!- augur has joined. 17:36:17 using a little known feature of printf in bash 17:36:29 which was at that point undocumented even, has been documented since iirc 17:38:05 What feature? 17:38:34 hm trying to remember the syntax 17:39:02 $ printf "%d\n" "'A" 17:39:02 65 17:39:12 Phantom_Hoover, notice the single quote in front of A 17:39:23 that single quote and it's effects with %d 17:39:27 was the undocumented bit 17:39:37 Given the choice between bash and sed, I'd pick awk. 17:39:41 cpressey, :D 17:39:52 cpressey, you know that is less esoteric 17:39:54 by far 17:40:41 I don't write in esolangs, I just design them. 17:40:59 Only exception: example programs for my own esolangs. 17:41:02 cpressey, you should take a look at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/envbot/anmaster-trunk/annotate/head:/lib/hash.sh (note since bash 4.0 this whole file would not be needed) 17:41:28 but bash 4.0 wasn't released when that was written 17:41:48 I kind of want to make a scripting engine from io to Erlang 17:41:53 I am still at a loss for why anyone would do that. Write non-obfuscated code in bash, I mean. 17:42:16 because I'll be working with some guys that are vaguely interested in programming but have never touched it really. 17:42:32 Ooh, I found a recursive Fibonacci with decimal-number arithmetics (well, addition) in sed. 17:42:33 eh 17:42:39 fizzie, nice 17:42:40 What does "from" mean, CakeProphet? 17:42:41 fizzie, link? 17:42:48 AnMaster: http://sprunge.us/bdAe 17:42:51 In "from io to Erlang"/ 17:43:21 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:43:28 CakeProphet: Oi, I don't know how well Erlang and/or Io would work with virtually-non-programmers. Maybe alright. 17:43:29 found or made? 17:43:31 fizzie, sed needs a macro language. That seems like a lot of repeating code 17:43:42 fizzie, maybe m4+sed would be the ultimate evil combination? 17:43:43 :D 17:44:10 cpressey: maybe Lua or Python would be better suited? 17:44:27 I could see Io being complicated 17:44:27 AnMaster: Sounds very horrible. But yes, the correspoding code written in binary is a lot shorter, and then you can very trivially convert that to hex for a moderately human-readable output. 17:44:28 CakeProphet: That's the conventional wisdom, anyway. 17:44:54 fizzie, err what do you mean written in binary? 17:45:08 fizzie: you found a file that says "(C) 2003 Heikki Kallasjoki "? 17:45:08 Written to use binary numbers internally, instead of decimals. 17:45:08 oh wait 17:45:10 i just realized 17:45:15 you could've found an old program 17:45:18 on your hd 17:45:25 fizzie, ah yes 17:45:35 oklopol: Yes, it was in ~/src/archived_prog/_/sed/. 17:45:38 "2003" 17:45:46 sorry i didn't remember years exist 17:46:57 -!- cpressey has left (?). 17:47:01 There's also a program that claims to be a "statusline utility for vt510 terminal" but I have no clue what it's supposed to do. 17:47:28 I vaguely remember that with the right termcap, screen could utilize the hard status line just fine without any additional applications. 17:47:32 -!- cpressey has joined. 17:48:57 Stupid Pidgin. 17:50:31 cpressey, hm? 17:50:41 fizzie: the reason i asked was my interesting brain decided to assume what happened was that you had a text editor that you've set to automatically add a copyright thingie to whatever code you open, and you hadn't realized it added one to that. 17:50:50 fizzie, hard status line? 17:50:51 rather logical don't you think 17:51:19 fizzie, eh? like a minibuffer in hardware or such? Or line as in wire? 17:51:28 AnMaster: The terminal has this line that's not part of the accessible-by-normal-cursor-motion-commands screen area. 17:51:33 fizzie, ah right 17:51:43 It might even have been two lines high. 17:51:53 Probably not. 17:52:14 fizzie, you are old enough to have worked with that sort of "terminal"? 17:52:23 or did you do it when newer stuff was around? 17:52:44 I mean, using hardware terminal 17:52:48 Oh, I just had one at home around 2002. 17:52:53 It was very nice for ircery. 17:53:00 ah 17:53:02 cool 17:53:09 Then it caught on fire, though. :/ 17:53:30 fizzie, huh!? 17:53:40 Well, the smoke came out, and it no longer worked. 17:54:11 oklopol, sounds rather illogical. I mean, a lot of the time you edit files other people worked on too 17:54:18 well at least I do 17:54:38 I had gotten a vt510 and vt420 from someone/somewhere; kept the 510 (it had a bit more screen modes and weird functionality) and gave the 420 to a friend; then the 510 broke down, and I was left completely without a terminal. 17:54:39 fizzie, ouch. Did you try to debug it? 17:54:46 fizzie, with multimeter and such 17:55:13 oh wait, cathode ray, high voltage. Yeah not a good idea unless you know exactly what you are doing 17:55:35 I did open the easily-openable parts and had a look in, but it did look pretty imposing. 17:55:44 fizzie, no photos? 17:55:47 I sort of ran out of a good place to keep it in at the same time, due to a move, so I just gave up. 17:56:30 I didn't want to waste film on that. There's a lot of photos of similar things in the interwebs. 17:56:38 ah film... right 17:56:54 tend to forget about how recently digital cameras became common 17:57:33 There was a nifty local (as in, runs in the terminal firmware) calculator built in the terminal. You could copy numbers in from the screen contents, and paste results in as input. 17:58:43 http://www.forcix.cx/images/screenshots/vt510.jpg though I ran mine at a lot higher text resolution. It could do something like 128x48 or so. 17:58:59 It was equally dirty, though. :p 17:59:35 fizzie, strangely .fi too 18:00:27 well in the screenshot I mean 18:00:29 Oh, on-screen, right. 18:01:29 fi:lasipalatsi is literally translated "glass palace", but it's referring to this building at the Helsinki city centre. There's a library, a small movie theatre, some restaurant, a few cafes, and so on, in there. 18:01:51 "The Lasipalatsi Film and Media Centre is a building owned by the City of Helsinki and maintained by the Lasipalatsi Media Centre Ltd. 18:01:51 Its pulse beats in the very heart of Helsinki, making the spirit of openness and modernity that its creators strove for already in the 1930’s come alive." 18:01:55 Ooh, the hype. 18:02:03 mhm 18:02:41 Oh, and one Apple "Premium Retailer" too. 18:02:56 fizzie, a mall? 18:04:03 Well, perhaps, sort-of. It's a bit different in style from the nearby actual shopping centres though. 18:10:39 I'm going to code in Java every day and become the best Java programmer ever!!! 18:12:14 I'm tempted to say something along the lines of "the only good Java programmer is a dead Java programmer". 18:13:09 that would be classic fizzie 18:13:33 -!- tombom_ has joined. 18:13:48 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:18:50 New rule: "CPU" is pronounced "Kuh-poo". 18:19:35 Why? 18:20:48 Because, Phantom_Hoover, we must avenge AnMaster's death, and this is the only way I know how. 18:21:16 How did he die? 18:21:58 I will let fungot answer that. 18:21:58 cpressey: dogs of ghosts aren't angry, it assumes that if you turn blind, don't step on cursed items. his most distinctive features are the most malleable and ductile of all creatures. they show astonishing intelligence in knowing when a human being and a great snake. 18:22:47 ^style 18:22:47 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube 18:23:01 ^style nethack 18:23:01 Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) 18:23:20 I'd like to see a style that merges all of them. 18:26:27 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 18:26:44 I should perhaps try a mixture some day. 18:29:10 OK, but how is AnMaster dead> 18:29:17 I want to get back to this. 18:29:59 I guess he stepped on a cursed item. After being blinded by ... some ghost's pet dog. 18:31:19 Stepping on a cursed item can't kill you, can it? 18:31:38 I mean, lots of things will kill you regardless of their BUC. 18:31:38 Maybe it was a cursed landmine. 18:31:51 See above. 18:32:16 I don't even think you can get cursed landmines. 18:32:35 They aren't inventory items, so how can they have a BUC? 18:32:49 Well, if a landmine killed me, I would certainly curse it. 18:32:58 If I were still alive. 18:33:00 Which I wouldn't be. 18:33:35 But real things don't even have a BUC! 18:34:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:35:14 Well, perhaps it was a wand. They can explode. 18:36:13 Not if you step on them. 18:36:28 True. 18:37:12 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:37:22 Really, I don't know what it could be. I only know that fungot wouldn't dare make shit up about something this important. Perhaps he will elaborate. 18:37:23 cpressey: they say that playing nethack is your mind. the answers to the world a grid bug: these strange creatures can be expert burrowers, runners, swimmers and climbers, and his treasure, but filled with the evil will of their victims. 18:38:03 Wow. 18:38:12 I'm going to have to think about that over lunch. 18:38:19 bbiab. 18:44:18 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:44:46 fungot HALP 18:44:46 CakeProphet: king arthur, *arthur: ector took both his sons to the shibuya train station every afternoon to wait for prey to come, but still quite formidable. 18:46:29 I often wonder whether fungot or Mezzacotta is more impressive. 18:46:29 Phantom_Hoover: they say that you can trust your gold with the sixth it snapped asunder in saruman's hand, to the game, which you can get a kick out of spain. one hob mentioned by henderson, was the reason for his muffled voice. " how perceptive of you to me.' ' o no, my dear!" 18:48:10 ^ 18:48:13 ^help 18:48:13 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 18:59:29 Phantom_Hoover: Well, fungot is in Funge. Mezzacotta is not. 18:59:29 pikhq: they say that snake charmers aren't charismatic, just musical." ( conan the conqueror, by w.b. yeats), and most corrosive agents, and finally, when invoked, it grants its owner wished, a horse which was stolen once can be diluted but not his life, some feathering, and are tipped with a long sword, wielding it in tins..." 19:01:02 ^show 19:01:02 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble 19:01:15 ^show reverb 19:01:15 ,[..,] 19:01:36 back 19:01:40 * AnMaster read scrollback 19:01:45 reads* 19:01:54 what? 19:02:03 cpressey, why did you think I was dead? ;P 19:02:24 This statement is false. 19:02:46 Gregor-P, what does the P stand for? 19:03:05 Phone 19:03:42 ^bool 19:03:42 No. 19:04:58 ^show bool 19:05:02 ^help 19:05:02 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 19:05:08 hm 19:05:16 I guess it can't be implemented in bf or ul 19:05:20 no randomness there 19:05:42 Right, it's a built-in. 19:06:12 v 19:06:12 "bool" >?>0".oN" 61g:3+61p3P> ^ 19:06:12 >17G0"loob"Q!|>0".seY" 61g:4+61p3P^ 19:06:12 v < 19:06:20 A short one. 19:06:27 is there any 2D esolang that uses more than one char per instruction? 19:06:35 and isn't image based that is 19:06:39 need to be text based 19:06:43 AnMaster: Beturing. 19:06:48 Are you forgetting the ORTH fingerprint? 19:06:55 (And the language it's based on) 19:06:57 Also Boo-yah!, if it were ever finished. 19:07:02 Deewiant, hm I don't remember the details of it 19:07:18 http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/orth/orth.html 19:07:33 Oh yeah. *I* was. 19:07:39 Forgetting Orthoganal, that is. 19:07:42 cpressey, I was thinking of a "high level" language. That would have functions, blocks, loops an such. Not sure how but I do have some vague ideas 19:07:48 Or Orthagonal. Or whatever. 19:07:57 Orthogonal. 19:08:31 lets say, 2D C. that should give you a feeling for I'm thinking about 19:08:35 I believe the first version was called Orthagonal. 19:08:39 "each column is four characters wide. This is the default setting, and it can be changed if desired, but four is wide enough for all of the instructions and all integers in the range of -999 to 9999, which includes most of the useful ones." 19:08:55 Deewiant, XD 19:09:00 You could sort-of count Wierd using "more than one char", since the instructions are based on the turns, and you need more than one character to make a turn. 19:09:21 hm still nothing near this idea I'm considering 19:10:21 hm need to think some more about it before I know what exactly to discuss 19:10:23 AnMaster: so a grid of functions that contain operations to manipulate some kind of state and also to manipulate positioning on the grid? 19:11:01 CakeProphet, not exactly no, it should be split on the level of parser elements, or at the very least, statements 19:11:05 consider: 19:11:09 f( 19:11:20 g(xyz) = blah 19:11:25 = 19:11:28 foo 19:11:47 this isn't exactly it, but I'm not yet sure about most of the details 19:11:53 probably won't look like that at all 19:11:57 also missed ) there 19:12:03 for f 19:12:19 well also f and ( should probably be different lines 19:12:39 of course the code would have to be valid in all cardinal directions (non-cardinal is too complicated to consider yet) 19:12:48 since it would definitely be a compiled language 19:12:58 you should be able to change direction somehow yes 19:14:23 one issue is knowing how wide cells are, I think they should be variable width with some sort of heuristic to detect which cell you aim for below. If properly done you could use that to implement randomness when there are multiple choices. 19:14:25 hm 19:14:28 Gregor-P, are you the only Gregor? 19:15:27 There are many Gregors. 19:15:50 Gregor-P, all clones right? 19:15:52 But only one essence Gregoran. 19:16:09 AnMaster: There's Rail, which has separate named functions, and multi-character commands (like the function calls). It's of course easy if you have code flow "rail-like" like that and not freely-moving. 19:16:31 fizzie, Rail is presumably separate to Rails? 19:16:51 fizzie, it should definitely be freely moving within the cardinal directions. Possibly allow delta larger than 1 19:17:04 Phantom_Hoover: Rail is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rail 19:17:07 fizzie, however I think the stuff should be fixed height 19:17:16 actually no, not delta other than 1 19:17:39 that would make compiling a nightmare, and a goal here is that the language should be easy to compile in theory but be rather hard to compile in practise 19:17:51 I rather like the raily way too. 19:17:51 mostly this is done by making the parsing insanely difficult 19:18:04 fizzie, yes so do I, but it is a different idea. 19:18:20 fizzie, just because you love intercal doesn't mean you hate befunge 19:18:42 Yes, it was more of a continuation on the "2D and multiple characters" conversation fork. 19:19:03 ah 19:19:10 Wait, fizzie hates Befunge? 19:19:15 Phantom_Hoover, no 19:19:19 Phantom_Hoover, PLEASE READ FIRST 19:19:22 and all of it 19:19:23 Wierd is sort of "raily" 19:20:33 fizzie, also it should definitely require that you can execute statements in all 4 cardinal directions. Somehow 19:20:35 Sort of a "rail tarpit" actually. 19:20:58 that means f ( x ) = y has to be valid (not hard) and so would y = ) x ( f have to be 19:21:08 this should make the parser rather hard 19:21:20 since you ( ... ) would be something else than ) ... ( 19:22:02 not sure what exactly yet, or if I even will use that exact syntax 19:22:26 s/you // 19:24:21 How about making brackets direction-independent? 19:24:49 Phantom_Hoover: But retain the fact that they nest! 19:25:10 So that ( is always "nest one more level" and ) is always "go up one nest level". 19:27:18 Phantom_Hoover, that doesn't work 19:27:26 Hm? 19:27:29 Phantom_Hoover, code has to be valid in all 4 cardinal directions 19:27:48 Phantom_Hoover, this will be compiled not interpreted as I said above (if you ever read more than half of what anyone read) 19:28:11 I got the cardinal directions and compilation. 19:28:38 * cpressey should build a custom downloader app for the esolangs on catseye.tc. EsoGRABBER!!! That's necessary. 19:28:39 yes but then how would "x = (2 + y) * 3" be valid from right? 19:28:49 it would be mismatched nesting depth 19:28:53 Bah, you're right. 19:29:11 and having it treat it reverse the other way around, well that is boring 19:29:27 plus it means you have a problem defining up and down 19:29:33 Indeed 19:29:35 . 19:29:36 since there is no obvious interpretation to those there 19:30:02 cpressey, why is that required? wget? 19:30:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:30:12 cpressey, wget can download recursively 19:30:25 Phantom_Hoover: Make the interpretation dependent on current travelling direction 19:30:42 AnMaster(cpressey) -> headdesk. 19:30:46 It's a general truth. 19:31:24 Does that mean that AnMaster makes you headdesk or the other way round? 19:31:39 Phantom_Hoover: Guess. 19:31:48 hm 19:31:51 Probably the first. 19:31:58 I'm not sure 19:32:02 cpressey, what would -> do 19:32:11 cpressey, of course it should be → instead 19:32:15 no reason to not use unicode 19:32:29 though I won't try to interpret the UTF-8 sequences backwards 19:32:34 that way lies madness 19:32:39 Does Erlang support unicode for that syntax now? 19:32:43 cpressey, nop 19:32:51 cpressey, I was thinking about my language idea 19:33:05 cpressey, however erlang has unicode strings and unicode IO and such nowdays 19:33:18 since a few versions 19:36:13 how about this: you can modify codespace, but no other memory, 2d, and all commands that do control flow make the turtle go faster, perhaps also possibility to modify say one whole row with one command 19:36:45 rather nonlocal, i like the idea 19:37:27 AnMaster: I have no idea what -> would do in *your* language. Sorry. 19:37:32 oklopol: No way to slow down? 19:37:38 no 19:37:44 cpressey, nor me 19:38:00 oklopol: I like it. There's a Jethro Tull song that has that in its refrain. 19:38:10 cpressey, still working on overall semantics rather than specific syntax 19:38:16 :) 19:38:36 needs quite a bit of refining ofc 19:38:53 cpressey, actually -> would be two symbols. so going < you would get > - 19:39:01 after that I would expect an integer or float 19:39:03 ;P 19:39:07 the other way around hm 19:39:28 it should do something since otherwise it would be tricky to compare some stuff 19:40:15 ooh it could print a warning saying "Deprecated alias for → (deprecated in first release)" at compile time 19:40:17 or such XD 19:40:24 but the idea is that you have to, regularly (although perhaps increasingly rarely), increase speed (perhaps the only way to do conditions or something), and that essentially renders all code you have on the board unusable 19:40:45 so you have to have built another thing to run, say, to the left of your current code 19:40:57 oklopol: Maybe you could have an extremely powerful instruction that spaces out all code on the board, to compensate 19:41:08 a'splode! 19:41:14 so kinda like that one language where you just have a tail call to a string, as control flow, but lower-level than that. 19:41:35 cpressey, space time expansion to counter increasing speed? 19:41:52 i don't really like my suggestion because it is too powerful, but yes. 19:41:57 hm 19:42:00 cpressey: maybe nothing *that* strong, i mean i don't want people to be able to use the same code again, you have to quine it 19:42:07 yeah too powerful 19:42:11 oklopol: Ah yes :) 19:42:24 but maybe you could say "repeat this pattern in this direction" 19:42:55 well anyway i'll think about this when the time comes, so maybe tomorrow, now some sleep hopefully 19:43:00 oklopol, would there be a limit to the speed? Some sort of speed of light limit I mean 19:43:08 well no 19:43:25 -!- tombom has joined. 19:43:48 you can never have a nontrivial infinite loop 19:43:50 that's for sure 19:44:04 you have to speed up after a finite amount of time 19:44:52 heh 19:45:10 oklopol, maybe after a fixed number of steps? Like some arcade games 19:45:18 well there it would be time 19:45:39 hm is there any esolang based on pinball? 19:45:47 with tilt sensors of course ;) 19:45:59 hmm 19:46:11 have to be careful that you don't get tcness without conditions ofc 19:46:16 because of self-modification 19:46:19 AnMaster, it wouldn't be turing complete, though. 19:46:25 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 19:46:25 Since you can't play forever. 19:46:28 Like Tetris. 19:46:56 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:47:02 but if it just incs speed after a finite amt, then it's not necessarily non-tc if you can print infinite rows at a time on the board 19:47:29 -!- benuphoenix has joined. 19:47:51 Hi 19:47:57 -!- benuphoenix has quit (Client Quit). 19:50:52 Strange. 19:51:03 I know that no one knows anything. 19:51:06 Therefore 19:51:10 this statement is false. 19:51:40 Well done, you have discovered the liar's paradox. 19:52:40 (this statement is false) is false. SOME KIND OF LOGICAL RECURSION? MUST BE PARADOX. 19:53:50 so here's a proposition: 19:53:59 the statement "this statement is false" is neither true nor false. 19:54:04 DISCUSS. 19:56:15 everyone likes a paradox 19:57:24 [x = x + 1] [x - 1 = x + 1 - 1] [x = x - 1] [ x + 1 = x - 1] [1 = -1] 19:57:43 ...hehehe 19:57:51 oklopol: Please use that assertion as the basis for a paradox. 20:08:59 Beh. I hate paradoxes about how everyone likes a paradox. 20:10:04 Since you can't play forever. 20:10:11 Phantom_Hoover, pinball? I think you can in theory? 20:10:20 why shouldn't you be able to? 20:10:26 with perfect play 20:10:46 Hmm. 20:11:11 Well, you can't do it if there's a nondeterministic element that can force unavaoidable failure. 20:11:24 s/nondeterministic/random/ 20:11:37 Since it *will* happen, eventually. 20:11:42 CakeProphet, that is not mathematically valid in the second and third step? 20:12:11 though 20:12:17 you start from nonsense as well 20:12:48 oh wait you switch sides there 20:12:50 nvm. 20:13:19 but yeah the third step is invalid and the initial equation has no solution 20:13:28 AnMaster, every step is valid. 20:13:38 The first statement is just false. 20:13:39 Phantom_Hoover, [x = x - 1] [ x + 1 = x - 1] ? 20:14:04 Makes perfect sense given the first statement. 20:14:07 Phantom_Hoover, yes the first is false but see the bit I pointed at. I fail to see what made you able to add + 1 there on just one side 20:14:20 Uh, the fact that x=x+1? 20:14:32 oh right, it is using that 20:14:32 meh 20:15:30 hey, I used false assertions to come to a false conclusion 20:15:36 sounds pretty consistent to me. 20:15:39 CakeProphet, :P 20:16:36 but imagine a world in which such a thing was not false 20:16:48 essentially... a world where x = (+-)x 20:16:50 wow that blows my mind 20:17:08 oklopol: you lie. 20:17:15 only partially 20:17:29 actually I would say that the first equation just has no solutions. solve in both maxima and mathematica gives me an empty set. So is the statement actually false? If we define false = no solutions does having multiple solutions then indicate that it is extra true? ;P 20:17:37 20:18:08 CakeProphet, also that one is easy: just take absolute value everywhere 20:18:48 a strange universe that works like that of course 20:19:07 CakeProphet, x=x is a sensible equation. 20:19:08 no interpretation for "x = x - 1" was given, really, the standard one is "this holds for all reals" 20:19:24 Not an interesting one, but it has a solution. 20:19:38 but occasionally x = x - 1 might be true in the sense that the polynomials give the same values for any inputs 20:19:53 which is a natural way to put polynomials in equivalence classes, so not completely bullshit 20:20:02 Phantom_Hoover: x equals and does not equal x??? 20:20:16 x=x? 20:20:17 huh 20:20:26 What number is equal to its negation? 20:20:27 oh 20:20:28 misread. 20:20:34 0 20:20:39 all the cool numbers are doing it 20:20:39 Yes. 20:21:08 I am at a slight distance to my monitor. so the (+-) looked like a not equal sign. 20:21:13 IIRC there's a thing called an identity that holds for all x. 20:22:15 identity is like inverting except without the actual inversion step. 20:22:51 Huh? 20:23:11 Phantom_Hoover, actually an injoke. You won't get it if you haven't had a course on digital logic circuits 20:23:21 AnMaster: No it's not. It's more like addition by one except without the addition by one step. 20:23:25 ... :) 20:23:27 CakeProphet, see above ^ 20:23:46 CakeProphet, either that "..." was you just realising it or it was something else. Which was it? 20:24:03 in circuitry, isn't identity usually like inversion, except you then invert the result 20:24:29 AnMaster: the "... :)" as a whole was an assertion of the severe gravity of this conversation. 20:24:34 oklopol, the symbols are the same except for a ring on the out signal for inverting. And there are "identify" gates called "buffers" so you get the timing right 20:25:02 How are pipes implemented, normally? 20:25:03 oklopol, which has exactly the inverter symbol without the ring on the output 20:25:12 Is there a limit to how much data they can hold? 20:25:14 Phantom_Hoover, ask a plumber. 20:25:19 oh well i wasn't talking about the symbols 20:25:44 i meant isn't that how you implement drivers (is that the term?), stick an inverter in another inverter's ass 20:25:47 I wonder if you can emulate an array with some pipes... 20:26:14 i guess not 20:26:15 oklopol, but yes since the reason you want identity is to match up the delay with some other signal you can often do it by inverting and then inverting again 20:26:48 right 20:26:56 oklopol, oh you mean output pin driving transistors? To amplify the signal to the outside? Hm can't remember how those worked. 20:27:01 I've never understood any of EE 20:27:03 I have tried. 20:27:22 Are pipes in C portable? 20:27:47 AnMaster: no i don't mean those! 20:28:22 CakeProphet, it makes perfect sense and unlike math you can usually just use a numerical approximation. Math teachers tends to want exact answers like 2sqrt(7) . While in EE you would answer ~5.2915 (or whatever number of significant digits you needed) and get full marks 20:28:33 oklopol, then not sure what you mean 20:28:45 anyway i have taken a course in digital logic or w/e, which was on a slightly higher level than this, an an electronics course that was on a much lower level, transistors i know little about. 20:28:47 Phantom_Hoover, also pipes are POSIX 20:28:52 Phantom_Hoover, if you mean pipe() 20:28:54 Ah, well. 20:29:05 Phantom_Hoover, oh and the kernel buffer for them are limited 20:29:06 AnMaster: I just have trouble understanding how to use the concepts. I never got terribly far though, for the same reason. 20:29:13 Phantom_Hoover, 4 kiB by default or such I think 20:29:15 Phantom_Hoover, check ulimits -a 20:29:21 Why must you ruin my dreams? 20:29:28 AnMaster: i just thought you call those things drivers that i dunno amplify signals and maybe synchronize them, i just recall seeing that term in a list of basic components, and someone said it's basically two inverters having anal sex 20:29:32 oklopol, hm 20:29:44 well the anal sex is my addition, you probably couldn't guess 20:29:57 They are called drivers. 20:30:15 Line drivers. 20:30:17 Because they amplify a signal enough to drive a line. 20:30:18 cpressey, I learnt the Swedish terminology, a bit limited with the English terms thus 20:30:25 cpressey, ah yeah for fan out? 20:30:29 Chip pin drivers are the same idea. 20:30:40 Yes, for fan out, or increased load generally. 20:30:41 cpressey, if this is for fan out then I get what oklopol is talking about 20:30:46 well yes 20:30:59 Driving light bulbs. Whatever you like. 20:31:09 indeed 20:31:13 circuits are things I would greatly love to know how to build and use. 20:31:22 Well, 800K is enough for a decent-sized list. 20:31:46 CakeProphet, once you used a breadboard for anything sufficiently complex you start to see the point of VHDL or verilog. Trust me on that. 20:31:48 Although you would need to rotate, and you'd only be able to do it one way. 20:31:49 the mess of wires 20:31:54 and debugging it is a pain 20:31:58 I think if I could translate it to CS I would understand better. 20:32:00 CakeProphet: They're fun. I had a hell of a time understanding electronics, but I eventually got used to it. 20:32:01 to find which wire is going the wrong way 20:32:14 that is when working in CMOS or TTL 74* logic 20:32:21 which I had to do a few times 20:33:14 CakeProphet: All electronic signals are analog. Coming from computers where everything is discrete, that's really the sticking point. 20:33:16 cpressey: cool, i actually was rather sure about that 20:33:22 actually EE might be more fun than compsci if it wasn't for algorithms and data structures. 20:33:32 oh yeah forgot that 20:33:37 the analog bit is painful 20:34:01 If you restrict yourself to digital circuits, you can pretend to forget that it's analog, but you can't really. 20:34:09 Is there a simple command-line tool that lets me convert from binary to decimal? 20:34:12 yeah I know 20:34:28 I'm getting progressively more annoyed with the lack of one. 20:34:44 Phantom_Hoover: I don't know of one. 20:34:47 cpressey, also I find writing AC as complex numbers and using *degrees* is jarring. like 4e^(-j*47.5°) 20:34:48 AnMaster: how much algorithmics do you have 20:34:56 cpressey, I have seen that in EE 20:34:57 like say, how many different courses 20:35:10 I too get annoyed at lack of binary support, even in languages like Perl or Python. When it's there, it's hard to find. 20:35:14 cpressey, I'll write my own, then. 20:35:23 oklopol, 2 courses during the autumn iirc, and a few during the spring to come 20:35:25 It only needs a for loop and a left-shift. 20:35:27 forgot exact count 20:35:27 you mentioned emphasis seems to be on the electronics side or do i misremember 20:35:38 oh you follow some sort of schedule? 20:35:46 is that normal there 20:35:47 I wonder if you could make a programming language that a) works exactly how someone unfamiliar with programs would expect b) has no ambiguity. 20:35:51 oklopol, yes 3 year program. Bachelor 20:35:56 we have a do-what-the-fuck-you-wish uni 20:36:01 and yes it is normal here 20:36:11 well okay i guess many follow some sort of program at first 20:36:25 basically fixed program with some 2-alternative choices 20:36:33 :\ 20:36:46 we have a stream like that, i would hate it 20:36:49 like, you have to chose one of "AI" or "compilers and interpreters" courses at one point 20:36:58 one of those? :D 20:37:00 guess which one I will take 20:37:01 garf 20:37:10 latter i guess, but AI is interesting too 20:37:10 oklopol, well yes at one point we get that choice. 20:37:15 at least the basic stuff 20:37:15 oklopol, I find AI boring 20:37:17 so yeah the latter 20:37:30 CakeProphet: LOL 20:37:33 anyway going to move to other university for master studies 20:37:37 well AI is basically about search techniques if you follow The Book. 20:37:44 (AIMA) 20:38:02 how can you think AI is boring? 20:38:06 oklopol, I have not looked at details yet. Over a year left 20:38:09 what kind of AI are you thinking about 20:38:22 i mean i'm not saying you have to like it, just surprising 20:38:28 oklopol, AI research. robots failling in stairs isn't it mostly about? 20:38:29 ;P 20:38:33 :P 20:38:39 falling* 20:38:43 or failing* 20:38:49 both works 20:38:49 yeah i wondered about that 20:39:11 oklopol, I think I changed my mind from "failing" to "falling in stairs" somewhere in the middle of that word 20:39:17 yeah i guess most applied AI is pretty boring 20:39:32 Worse, "fuzzy" is taking over. 20:39:33 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?). 20:39:49 what's wrong with fuzzyness 20:39:53 oklopol, yes it is definitely applied AI in the master program this uni offers. only compsci master program they have. So moving to other university for that as I said above 20:40:02 http://danweinreb.org/blog/why-did-mit-switch-from-scheme-to-python 20:40:20 cpressey, I guess they like the warm and fuzzy feeling? 20:40:39 I thought AI researchers spent most of their time fighting off their creations. 20:41:08 I also saw an abstract for a talk (did I not attend) a few years ago, which was basically about how a CS cirriculum based on things like Towers of Hanoi was not relevant anymore. 20:41:27 Yes. Teaching students to think recursively -- what use is that? 20:41:31 cpressey, CS != CE != EE 20:41:38 that is the issue they have 20:42:04 cpressey, oh we did recursion in python, part of first course... 20:42:10 That's hardly their only issue. 20:42:54 cpressey, oh and induction, but that was pretty solid discrete math though the teacher had some quite whimsical analogies with the real world. 20:42:59 I'm surprised Python hasn't beat Java in university curricula 20:43:09 as far as first-year courses. 20:43:13 CakeProphet, I think there is java coming up later on 20:43:17 and C++ 20:43:23 sigh 20:43:35 my university starts us with Java. 20:43:40 apparently they used to use lisp here long ago as well. 20:43:44 * CakeProphet learned Python on his own back in sophmore year of high school. 20:43:53 that's when I started programming. 20:43:55 CakeProphet, thank god we were introduced to C before C++ 20:44:09 well I already knew C pretty well 20:44:09 ha. yeah. 20:44:25 C is great. solid. C++ is a mess. 20:44:49 iirc I even checked against the C standard and told the teacher he was wrong about some tiny detail wrt undefined behaviour of something. 20:45:02 well told him between classes 20:45:12 I started on Pascla. 20:45:15 yeah. CS people are wrong sometimes. it happens. There's a lot of shit to remember. :) 20:45:17 s/Pascla/Pascal/ 20:45:21 CakeProphet, well C is hard 20:45:26 And then moved on to Python and Lisp. 20:45:32 Don't know anything about Pascal myself. 20:45:35 CakeProphet, after all I had to double check with the C standard to be sure he was incorrect. 20:45:40 CakeProphet, nor do I. 20:45:42 so it wasn't anything common 20:45:48 I mean, I know C99 pretty well 20:46:03 I stopped after a short while. 20:46:07 ah. 20:46:18 was ages ago I used pascal last 20:46:18 "a CS cirriculum based on things like Towers of Hanoi was not relevant anymore." <<< indeed, nowadays if you don't know that stuff, people will think you have brain cancer 20:46:28 hmmm, what advantages does Erlang have over Scala? 20:46:30 oklopol, ... ? 20:46:46 oklopol, that is just math department people ;P 20:46:48 I started on BASIC. 20:46:55 And while I did computing at my current school, I used JavaScript. 20:47:00 I *started* with apple script 20:47:06 on my dad's performa 20:47:08 ON IE 5 FOR MAC. 20:47:19 had netscape 3 iirc 20:47:21 :P 20:47:23 The reasons for this choice still eludes me. 20:47:28 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:47:29 managed to fuck up the system somehow so it needed reinstall 20:47:33 I still have no clue how 20:47:36 went something like this for me: Python -> C -> Scheme -> Brainfuck -> ...? 20:47:37 They *have* both Firefox and Safari on all of the machines. 20:47:56 Holy crap. 20:48:08 I may have stressed the wrong word. 20:48:25 hm... applescript -> delphi -> pascal -> bash -> C -> branches out to include lots of other languages, not just one after this 20:48:32 So I'm the *only* one here (not lurking) who started programming on an 8-bit? 20:48:32 AnMaster: yes, possibly. it's quite a new experience to be the least smart in a group of 5 people. 20:48:39 The best part is that the teacher said that it was because IE 5 had better debugging. 20:48:40 oklopol, haha 20:48:51 cpressey, 8-bit went out before I was born. 20:49:01 Helloooo, middle age! 20:49:01 cpressey, I'm too young as well 20:49:13 Phantom_Hoover, how old are you exactly? 20:49:16 (the dudes i hang with, luckily these people just assumed i was one of them so i didn't have to choose my companions) 20:49:38 oklopol, hah. you are post graduate now or? 20:49:42 AnMaster, CLASSIFIED. 20:49:53 Phantom_Hoover, I'll assume 14-17 then 20:49:56 somewhere in that range 20:50:03 well okay maybe not really least smart, but complete noob at least 20:50:11 AnMaster, CLASSIFIED. 20:50:14 oklopol, so post graduate? 20:50:16 Phantom_Hoover, why? 20:50:34 * CakeProphet is 18. 20:50:34 AnMaster, CLASSIFIED. 20:50:39 Phantom_Hoover, ffs 20:50:50 CakeProphet, 20 here 20:50:51 AnMaster: no i have a BS, at least once i return my thesis 20:51:08 oklopol, ah. So not a MS yet? 20:51:10 AnMaster, I'm not really sure myself. 20:51:14 i just work at the university, i've told this many times :) 20:51:18 no, not yet :( 20:51:27 I think I started lurking here when I was 15-16 20:51:34 oklopol, oh so what does your work involve? teaching? 20:51:36 but i have enough courses for it 20:51:40 no wait I can't imagine you teaching anyone 20:51:59 well part research, but mostly i read papers and books. 20:52:18 Phantom_Hoover, what? you don't know how old you are? 20:52:24 (because it's a bit hard to do research in a subject you learned a month ago) 20:52:37 hm 20:52:43 AnMaster, I was just a little baby when I was born! 20:52:48 I don't remember the date! 20:53:09 Phantom_Hoover, ... surely you know when you have your bday? I mean other people tend to remind you of it ;P 20:53:36 i still have a hard time remembering whether i'm 20 or 21 20:53:45 i always have to do a subtraction 20:54:00 oklopol, well sure 20:54:12 oklopol, but at least you know it +/- 1 year 20:54:32 AnMaster, I know my birthday, just not the year I had the first one. 20:54:40 So, let me think.... BASIC -> 6502 assembler (extremely lamely) -> Pascal -> C -> Visual Basic -> Perl -> Erlang -> Lua -> Scheme -> Prolog -> Haskell -> C++ (out of sheer necessity) -> Python -> Ruby. Roughly, and not counting esolangs. 20:54:56 Phantom_Hoover, hm. You surely have some estimate of your age? give or take a year or two? ;P 20:55:19 I don't show up in mirrors, so I can't estimate it that way. 20:55:30 cpressey, so you don't know bash, sed, awk and so on? 20:55:33 he's a phantom hoover, AnMaster, duh. 20:55:46 Phantom_Hoover, photos? 20:55:50 * CakeProphet has never even seen a sed or awk program. 20:55:59 AnMaster: I know *of* them. 20:56:07 CakeProphet, you have seen simple sed programs on irc 20:56:08 AnMaster, why would I show up in photos but not a mirror? 20:56:12 I don't see why I should consider them programming languages. 20:56:16 CakeProphet, people correcting using s/foo/bar/ 20:56:18 that is sed syntax 20:56:18 AnMaster: possibly, I didn't recognize them as such. 20:56:20 I wrote a 15-line awk program once. 20:56:27 AnMaster: ah, well yes. I associate that with Perl I guess. 20:56:32 i used to know tons of languages but i think i've forgotten everything except python 20:56:32 cpressey, sed and awk are TC 20:56:37 cpressey, so is sh iirc 20:56:44 AnMaster: So? 20:57:03 cpressey, dd/sh is an esolang using dd and sh, hosted on the same site as clc-intercal 20:57:18 cpressey, http://dd-sh.intercal.org.uk/ 20:57:24 cpressey: tc = serious business 20:57:24 AnMaster: Yes, I've seen it before. 20:57:28 cpressey, ah 20:57:34 that's why 20:57:41 oklopol: I did say "not counting esolangs". 20:57:54 cpressey, you consider bash an esolang? 20:58:07 AnMaster: It SHOULD be. 20:58:11 and i did say SERIOUS BUSINESS. 20:58:17 it ends if with fi... 20:58:18 I mean come on. 20:58:49 cpressey, Just because you can do stuff in envbot in it doesn't mean it is esoteric. If it did then C would be esoteric. IOCCC 20:59:02 cpressey: I am of the proper age to have started on 8-bit hardware, but curse my non-sensible family, we only got PC hardware. I did start reasonably early on the PC thing, though, and have been twiddling with obsoleted hardware "posthumously"; I've got that one C128 and so on. 20:59:10 oklopol: re Towers of Hanoi: I agree with AnMaster. You live in a world where people are expected to write proofs. 20:59:22 cpressey, hm? 20:59:28 (I am also a bit bitter on all same-aged friends who got to start with more interesting computers.) 20:59:49 cpressey, and C++ should be esoteric. After all it is TC only thanks to templates 21:00:00 fizzie: Well, even the old PCs hold some charm. CGA and all that. 21:00:02 hmmm 21:00:04 templates doing TC calculations at compile time 21:00:09 we were just talking today with a doctoral student about how dumb it people are 21:00:09 so if I'm understanding bijections correctly. 21:00:15 well cs people i mean 21:00:15 they are functions from values in one set to values in another. 21:00:34 and they're one-to-one 21:00:40 one-to-one and onto 21:00:43 injective and surjective 21:00:46 CakeProphet, bijection mean you can match up 1-to-1 both ways yes. 21:00:58 hm, I always confuse what sujection is 21:01:12 that is, each point in the codomain has exactly one preimage (injection = at most 1, surjection = at least 1). 21:01:16 AnMaster: The only reason Perl, C++, and bash aren't esolangs is because so many people use them. 21:01:26 oklopol, right, so what I said was equiv. 21:01:32 cpressey, hah 21:01:38 AnMaster: if you knew french, you'd remember 21:01:48 cpressey: Yes, but still. I did mostly GW-BASIC lameity, and the computers were already at something like 386s before I discovered real programming languages. (Though inexplicably there was a Prolog interpreter installed on one... 286, I guess.) 21:01:54 oklopol, I did take french ages ago. Don't remember much 21:01:56 "sur" means "onto", well, assuming you know what onto means i guess 21:02:05 cpressey: which language would you recommend I learn? I know very little. I think I'm going to do an IRC bot as practice in whatever language I choose. Ruby? Perl? 21:02:10 Perl seems like too much trouble to learn. 21:02:23 CakeProphet: Remind me, what ones you know now? 21:02:26 The first PC we had had a Hercules monochrome graphics adapter, incidentally. Color is too hi-fi. 21:02:29 i think of it as you mapping a set on top of another, this is what surjectivity is, that the codomain is covered 21:02:35 oklopol, so surjective = "there are no values in your target set that you can't reach with this function"? 21:02:40 yes 21:02:44 oklopol, right thanks 21:02:56 oh yeah codomain was the name 21:02:58 why 21:03:01 I mean, why codomain 21:03:03 that's the name i use 21:03:04 CakeProphet: scrollback says Python -> C -> Scheme -> Brainfuck 21:03:07 domain and codomain 21:03:15 cpressey: not too many I have a lot of experience. Python, I "know" Scheme but have never really used it for anything, I've used C extensively, and... I've been learning Erlang as of late. Those are just the ones I've actually used, not the ones I've digested. 21:03:15 *names 21:03:24 oklopol, I heard it before. But the name "codomain" makes no sense to me. 21:03:31 CakeProphet: So... right. Hm. 21:03:39 well co- in category theory usually means inverting arrows 21:03:41 oklopol, as in the prefix co- seems to indicate stuff like coroutines and such for me rather 21:03:42 cpressey: I would like to expand my vocabulary. :) 21:03:43 functions are a kind of arrow 21:03:52 oklopol, oh right 21:03:53 hm 21:03:54 so, the codomain is the domain of the cofunction 21:03:57 :P 21:04:18 oklopol, you mean the inverse function? 21:05:01 no not really, in its abstractness category theory likes to invert the arrow without changing meaning at all 21:05:18 CakeProphet: Well, Erlang's good stuff. If you're simply looking to expand your vocabulary, maybe Prolog. 21:05:21 so it's the same function, we just think of it as doing a different kind of thing... 21:05:28 oklopol, augh 21:05:44 cpressey: meh. Not terribly interested in Prolog. I've looked at it though. 21:05:45 oklopol, so is arcsin the cofunction of sin? 21:05:49 If you're looking to improve your career prospects, then Java, of course. 21:05:58 well umm actually 21:06:04 oklopol, because that is what I meant with inverse. Well of course this is true only if you set your domain to be relevant size 21:06:06 Forth is a different-paradigmy choice too, and oh-so-chARRming. 21:06:07 CakeProphet: Knowing what Prolog does is more important than writing programs in it. 21:06:20 i guess the inverse function could be thought as being the cofunction 21:06:22 I second fizzie's Forth suggestion. 21:06:25 cpressey: oh, speaking of Erlang. Would you recommend Mnesia to handle persistence in a MUD codebase? 21:06:32 do realize i don't actually know much about this stuff :P 21:06:54 CakeProphet: It's OK, but my experience was that dets was significantly faster. 21:06:56 CakeProphet: Knowing what Prolog does is more important than writing programs in it. <-- ah, somewhat like scheme then 21:07:00 i mean i guess that's the natural way to interpret reversing the arrow, if the function is invertible 21:07:02 cpressey: it's interesting. I've seen example programs where Prolog defines trees by stating relationships between branches, rather than explicit construction. 21:07:07 but you can invert the arrow even if there's no inverse function 21:07:11 cpressey: dets is just the table-to-file part of mnesia right? 21:07:18 because it's still a morphism 21:07:25 cpressey, knowing what call/cc and lisp macros are is more important than actually writing stuff in it. IMO 21:07:28 CakeProphet: Yes, mnesia is implemented with dets I believe. 21:07:36 cpressey, dets and ets iirc 21:07:48 AnMaster: maybe, but the difference is not so great as it is in prolog imo. 21:07:51 can't you have tables loaded in memory for read? 21:07:53 iirc 21:07:54 hm 21:08:01 not sure 21:08:06 never used mnesia 21:08:14 AnMaster: yes. 21:08:35 CakeProphet, also I used dets without mneisa once 21:08:39 and ets a few times 21:08:39 i mean, the persistent part of mnesia is implemented with dets. 21:08:45 cpressey, yes 21:08:46 okay "cofunction" seems to refer to sine -> cosine etc, that completely different ofc 21:08:55 oklopol, well yes 21:09:02 cpressey: I was mostly interested in being able to perform multiple operations atomically. I suppose I could achieve the same effect with dets though. Simply have one process who controls the table and implement all the operations I need via messages. 21:09:16 CakeProphet: Exactly. 21:09:23 eh 21:09:25 hm 21:09:38 it is lower level in other aspects too 21:10:02 like, you probably only have one key column 21:10:02 Mnesia is good if you need transactions. 21:10:15 you would need to implement indexes on other columns yourself 21:10:21 cpressey: Erlang makes it kind of natural to reason about procedures actually. Getting accustomed to the syntax and the libraries will be a completely different story however... 21:10:28 also not sure about properly closing dets on exit 21:10:52 CakeProphet, for me it took about two weeks to get used to the , ; . bit 21:10:58 AnMaster: also you should definitely at least be able to imagine me trying to teach someone, because i try to teach you stuff all the time :P 21:11:01 coded a lot during that time though 21:11:28 oklopol, well yes but #esoteric is different 21:11:53 oklopol, I don't want to imagine you telling students you played the piano like... you know... 21:11:58 :D 21:12:26 well yes you're probably right, luckily for the students i *am* aiming for research. 21:12:47 hm 21:13:08 I am somewhat interested in research, but I fear some kind of evil university politics cabal. 21:13:11 it's possible ofc that i just start sweeping floors because i'm not smart enough for math 21:13:28 so I think I think I'll try industry for a while and maybe go back for post-grad and such. 21:13:36 CakeProphet, I heard about that sort of stuff too. Too much drama basically. 21:13:43 yes. 21:14:11 CakeProphet: I have to admit, if I ever do design my Ultimate System, a signficiant chunk of it will look like Erlang. 21:14:16 CakeProphet, but you are likely to get drama in industry as well 21:14:19 I bet 21:14:29 cpressey, will it be an OS? 21:14:41 No, it'll be an US. 21:14:43 cpressey: yes, but you better do better. Needs moar data structures. 21:14:48 that aren't compiler hacks. 21:14:52 cpressey, also it should JIT. Erlang not jitting to preserve soft realtime predictability is a reason that is very specialised 21:14:54 No, it will be a CE! I've been over this in this channel in the past few days ;) 21:15:10 cpressey, ? 21:15:25 Probably at times when AnMaster wasn't here. 21:15:29 cpressey, erlang isn't an OS. But you could make an OS that felt much like erlang I feel 21:15:43 cpressey, yeah I seldom log read if more than half my scrollback (2000 lines per channel) 21:16:02 brb, going to get some cookies or something 21:16:19 I don't see how Erlang isn't an OS. it runs standalone, supports hardware access, and can multi-task standalone. 21:16:35 And it's been put on a FPGA, mostly. 21:16:48 That's even better than an OS. 21:17:36 cpressey: were you around for my concurrent cellular automata language idea? 21:17:46 CakeProphet: I don't think so. 21:17:52 I want to complete the design... and then have Intel make me a 100-core machine to play around with it. 21:18:15 essentially what it sounds like. the devil is in the details of course. 21:18:53 you define a grid of concurrent FSMs... I haven't decided if they'll be message passing or if they simply just do typical CA behavior. 21:18:53 AnMaster: so you had what a few hundred channels open, so... you seldom read more than 100000 lines of scrollback? god you're lazy. 21:19:23 psh, I /never/ read scrollback 21:19:27 and this is the only channel I inhabit. 21:22:49 so how is it different from a CA? :P 21:22:59 please tell me about the devil 21:23:07 CakeProphet: The nice part is that each core can be really simple, and have all of its memory reside in what is essentially cache, making them really fast. 21:23:15 The icky part is the messaging. 21:23:35 And some problems don't parallelize. 21:23:39 Meh, x86 really ought to have a single-byte-displacement CALL; it is so wasteful in a tiny program that every time you want a subroutine call, it wastes five bytes (opcode + disp) for a 32-bit relative displacement that always has the three higher bytes zero (or 0xff sometimes). 21:23:48 And we don't have good proofs that some problems don't parallelize. 21:24:02 There's short jumps, why is there no short call? 21:24:26 cpressey: the message passing wouldn't be bad if you communicated messages only to your neighbor on the grid. 21:24:36 *neighbors 21:24:41 CakeProphet: That helps. Actually... 21:24:46 * cpressey thinks 21:25:22 cpressey: and then you could implement forwarding behavior to carry messages along. 21:25:32 If you go computer-sciencey on distributed computing, we don't really know anything. We had a seminar course on this once, and it was full of "everything always works" assumptions; if you start thinking about nodes that fail, all the beautiful algorithms and their properties go out of the window. 21:26:17 CakeProphet: so how's it different from a ca :P 21:27:39 well... only in implementation really. and it would be a programming language. I was thinking about having functions with pattern matching. 21:27:58 as message handlers. 21:28:17 (The whole seminar course was about a single book; the professor was interested in reading the book, but couldn't get himself motivated, so he arranged a seminar course on it.) 21:28:21 and more complex states that a typical CA. records and such. 21:28:53 CakeProphet: Yeah, in practice the idea tends to be shot down by "a dedicated bus would be faster than making potentially everything relay like that" 21:29:47 fizzie: I've known professors like that. 21:30:01 Besides, if P=NP, who needs to parallelize anything? 21:30:05 :D 21:30:38 Here's a bit of trivia: you can do election (a "select one node so that everyone in the network agrees on it" protocol) in an unoriented hypercube in O(n log log n) messages. 21:33:01 CakeProphet: I wonder how many 6502s you could stamp out on a modern Pentium-sized chip. 21:33:07 -!- coppro has joined. 21:34:30 6502: ~4K transistors; six-core Core i7 chip: ~1'170'000'000 transistors. 21:35:03 Ah, I should stipulate 64K RAM alongside each 6502, of course. 21:35:03 It perhaps isn't quite as trivial as an integer division of the latter by the former, but still. 21:35:41 So: "A whole bunch." 21:37:11 Good luck in convincing Intel to rework their manufacturing lines to build 6502-monsters like that. 21:39:50 I do like the term "embarrassingly parallel problem". 21:42:18 fizzie: how? 21:42:22 err the hypercube 21:42:47 AnMaster: so you had what a few hundred channels open, so... you seldom read more than 100000 lines of scrollback? god you're lazy. <-- the policy differs between channels 21:42:55 oklopol, and some are way way less active 21:43:19 oklopol, so that calculation is way off. I would say "seldom more than 2000 lines of scrollback" 21:43:26 often much less 21:43:37 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:43:43 oklopol: See problem 3.10.8 in the book Design and Analysis of Distributed Algorithms, by N. Santoro (J. Wiley & Sons, 2006). 21:44:08 oklopol: (My slides refuse to elaborate, and I wrote them in early 2007, so can't say I recall the details.) 21:44:29 oerjan, how does this make you feel: 4.30e^(-j32.7°) 21:44:47 That doesn't really make sense. 21:44:53 oklopol: I do have an explanation on O(n)-message election protocol in an oriented hypercube, but I don't think I can explain it sufficiently. 21:44:55 oerjan: i was trying to find a math reference greeting, but i can't, so, consider yourself lucky. 21:44:55 Phantom_Hoover, it is common EE notation 21:44:59 it makes perfect sense to me 21:45:08 oerjan, but what about the degrees? 21:45:09 Oh, I understad. 21:45:24 I just get thrown by degree signs. 21:45:26 Makes me feel sweltering! 32.7°! 21:45:32 cpressey, XD 21:45:35 Phantom_Hoover, My hobby: trying to make mathematicians shudder. 21:45:39 AnMaster: i tend to consider ° an abbreviation for pi/180 in such circumstances :) 21:45:41 I guess it didn't really work 21:45:50 oerjan, but what about the j instead of i? 21:46:03 oerjan, oh and the unit would be mV 21:46:05 AnMaster: i'm not one to hate on engineers 21:46:21 oerjan: After all, without engineers you probably wouldn't even be here! 21:46:28 true, true 21:46:32 oerjan, huh. I remember ehird calling mixing in degrees like that an abomination... 21:46:39 I guess he is easier to annoy 21:46:49 AnMaster: ehird _likes_ to hate on stuff 21:46:55 oerjan, oh good point 21:47:21 oerjan, but what do you feel about units like mV instead having ones like "area unit" "length unit" or such? 21:47:44 one unit shuold be enough for everyone 21:47:48 *should 21:48:24 AnMaster: i feel units should be included when you're doing actual physics stuff 21:48:37 oerjan, oh and the values in the problem would all be given in incompatible units. Like µH pF A MOhm and mV 21:48:51 oerjan, oh wait your terminal fail at unicode? 21:48:56 oerjan, if so that was "micro" 21:48:58 as in my 21:49:07 the greek letter my 21:49:22 What about using eV as a unit of mass? I see that in physics people. (They drop the /c^2 bit out.) 21:49:40 AnMaster: it's only incompatible if they don't have the same dimension when added, although it could still be _ugly_, naturally. also µ happens to be in latin-1. 21:49:44 fizzie, haha. Yeah I'm not going that stuff so no clue about it 21:50:18 oerjan, oh and you have to be careful with number of significant digits. Since you won't be able to solve this exactly 21:50:20 fizzie: particle physicists like to set c = 1, don't they 21:50:25 oerjan, you will have to give an approx answer 21:50:39 oerjan: They do indeed. One might even think them lazy, they like it so much. 21:51:01 fizzie, on the other hand, the stuff they work with tends to move at large fractions of c 21:51:08 fizzie, it's quite nice. 21:51:15 fizzie, so it sounds like a much more usable unit than meters per second 21:51:25 Since it means that you can equate space and time without much hassle 21:52:12 OH SHIT 21:52:13 oerjan, well? you don't have any problems with approx answer? 21:52:16 I have a test in 5 mL 21:52:19 I'm going to be late. 21:52:25 mililitres? 21:52:30 ...yes. 21:52:30 err 21:52:32 spelling 21:52:44 CakeProphet, run anyway 21:53:12 but I have 100 seconds of orange juice that I haven't finished drinking... 21:53:45 fizzie, hm, centi- = 1/100, kilo- = * 1000, what what do you use when you want to use *100 instead 21:54:01 hecto 21:54:03 Hecto, yes. 21:54:05 fizzie, reason: kiloseconds is not very convenient for describing a few minutes 21:54:08 fizzie, ah yes thanks 21:54:15 With the abbrev. "h". 21:54:15 hectoseconds :D 21:54:18 or decadeca 21:54:35 desikilo 21:54:38 0.6 hs, hm 21:54:40 err 21:54:42 yep works nicely 21:54:43 deci 21:54:55 An average american weighs about 45 US-trillion YeVs. 21:55:07 9 hs = 15 minutes right? 21:55:38 and 6 hs would be 10 minutes 21:55:44 fizzie: you make us sound fat. :P 21:56:14 fizzie, now use an exponential scale for this 21:56:23 as in, not logarithmic, exponential 21:56:45 fizzie, YeV? 21:56:55 Phantom_Hoover: yottaelectronvolts. 21:56:57 Yottaelectronvolts? 21:56:58 CakeProphet: considering volume and time to be the same unit seems a tad stretching it :D 21:57:17 But that's a unit of energy, not weight. 21:57:22 fizzie, shouldn't eV be a charge rather than mass hm 21:57:23 indeed 21:57:33 especially if you've already made length == time 21:57:34 but wait, e = mc² 21:57:45 AnMaster: Yes, and c=1. (According to them.) 21:58:07 Phantom_Hoover: What about using eV as a unit of mass? I see that in physics people. (They drop the /c^2 bit out.) 21:58:09 oerjan: yes but see length = time = 1 21:58:22 fizzie, oh. 21:58:24 CakeProphet, oh you were joking about the test? 21:58:32 But mass /= weight/ 21:58:49 hm 21:58:57 Phantom_Hoover, define gravity to 1 or something 21:59:00 Phantom_Hoover: So you complain when someone says he weighs 80 kg? It's a unit of mass, after all. 21:59:14 As long as length and width are different unit expressions, I'm happy. 21:59:16 I would, but then everyone would hate me. 21:59:27 cpressey, how are they different? 21:59:37 Dimensions: 15cm x 20m/s 21:59:42 There is an imperial measure of mass, but it's really stupid. 21:59:45 cpressey, eh right 21:59:54 cpressey, per barn right? 22:00:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_%28unit%29 22:00:21 which dimensions _are_ considered distinct is a little arbitrary anyway. there was one system before SI which considered ampere and the other electromagnetic units to be formulated in terms of m kg s 22:00:27 Per barn². 22:00:48 cpressey, err barn is already area. so that is length^4 22:00:49 while in SI ampere/current is a distinct dimension for basing them on 22:00:53 which we have no name for 22:00:58 super-volume? 22:01:07 err hypervolume rather 22:01:13 what with hypercube and so oj 22:01:14 on* 22:01:30 Then there are cubic litres. 22:01:47 Asking people how many pints there are in one is mildly amusing. 22:01:55 Phantom_Hoover, yes freeze 1 litre of water into the shape of a cube 22:02:13 Terrible. Pun. 22:02:26 Phantom_Hoover: ah i get it, it's funny because pints are an outdated measure 22:02:44 I was referring to the 9-dimensional unit. 22:02:46 Phantom_Hoover, or you could ask Picasso. He was big on cubism right? 22:03:06 Phantom_Hoover: i know this 22:03:09 Phantom_Hoover: Okay, so an average american (under normal conditions) weighs around 80 megadynes. But that's not as funny a unit. 22:03:12 hm some time travel might be involved 22:03:29 fizzie, what is a dyne? 22:03:38 AnMaster: 10 micronewtons. It's not a SI unit. 22:03:42 ah 22:03:50 fizzie, you should get length in Å 22:09:30 Hey, can we equate space and time and see what happens? 22:09:39 There's that "usual" (if you can call it that) unusual unit for speed, attoparsecs/microfortnight. (Since 1 apc/µfortnight -- there doesn't seem to be a commonly used abbreviation for fortnight -- is close to 1 inch/second.) 22:09:40 boring 22:09:54 Velocity becomes unitless, for instance. 22:09:57 fizzie, I know about it 22:10:03 And force and power are equivalent. 22:11:44 "Thus, scientists would brag about having a "4 Gillette" laser versus their competitor's puny "2 Gillette" laser." (Meaning, their laser can burn a hole through 4 razor blades.) 22:11:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:12:04 fizzie, XD 22:12:12 fizzie, in how long time? 22:12:38 fizzie, I mean if you wait long enough both are going to burn through all 4 22:12:39 AnMaster: It doesn't say. It's also all [citation needed]. But it does sound funny. 22:12:47 fizzie, true 22:12:49 ais523, hi 22:12:50 Possibly they can't be run indefinitely. 22:14:03 anyway I'm going to sleep soon, 4 hs seems enough, give or take a few 22:14:31 slept badly the previous night so 22:14:51 hi 22:15:23 -!- wareya_ has changed nick to wareya. 22:15:56 alright #esolang 22:16:05 cpressey: Speaking of multicore-6502's, would you classify the C128 as a dual-processor computer? It's got the 8502 (a 6510-derivative) and the Z80 both, but only one of them can be active at a time. 22:16:17 help me decide which strain pf psilocybe cubensis I want: http://www.spores101.com/cart.php?m=product_list&pageNumber=1&c=1&v=&sortBy=undefined&search= 22:16:20 :) 22:16:24 fizzie: Wal... sure. -ish. 22:16:26 I'm thinking B+ 22:17:11 CakeProphet, are you making a computer with them? 22:17:14 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:17:29 Phantom_Hoover: Shush, he asked #esolang, not #esoteric. 22:17:38 Phantom_Hoover: depends. possibly. 22:17:45 ha.. didn't realize I slipped up there. 22:17:52 I am surprised they do not have Penis Envy. 22:18:09 Phantom_Hoover: I was actually just going to grow them and trip balls. But I could make a computer in the process if you'd like. 22:18:46 Wow, and there was me thinking you wanted them for science. Goodness, I'm nave. 22:19:54 wait what? 22:19:58 biological computer 22:20:21 ? 22:21:05 Well, it is esoteric. 22:21:19 Phantom_Hoover: don't own a microscope. I do like mushrooms in general, for more socially acceptable reasons. 22:21:48 Science is socially acceptable! 22:21:53 Among scientists! 22:21:56 and I was referring to making a computer design /while/ tripping... not /from/ the psilocybe genus. That would be a very slow computer as it would likely involve reproduction. 22:22:15 Phantom_Hoover: don't own a microscope. I do like mushrooms in general, for more socially acceptable reasons. <-- hm your nick makes more sense now ;) 22:22:28 oh wait 22:22:34 you actually meant like that 22:22:35 ^_^ 22:22:47 ...you might have lost me. 22:22:59 CakeProphet, go and build a fungus computer while tripping? 22:23:12 I was joking about tripping. And then you tell me you are going to use the fungus for that.. 22:23:24 oh... well yes. 22:23:25 :) 22:23:28 I mean 22:23:29 sigh 22:23:35 I wouldn't buy them to look at them under a microscope. 22:23:40 as interesting as that might be. 22:23:46 I'm just going to /clear right now, 22:23:53 ha. 22:23:58 legal reasons and so on. 22:23:59 CakeProphet: But it explicitly says: good for looking at them under a microscope. 22:24:14 indeed so. 22:24:19 CakeProphet, just don't kill yourself 22:24:23 AnMaster: I won't. 22:24:59 and there's nothing illegal about talking about shrooms... at least not where I live. 22:25:28 Also just having a link like that on screen sounds unlikely to be illegal. But I am not a lawyer. 22:25:39 indeed 22:25:43 spores aren't even illegal. 22:25:54 (in the US) 22:26:12 thus why there can be websites dedicated to selling them. 22:26:52 but anyways 22:27:04 I think you could make a biological computer of some kind. It would just be slow and error-prone. 22:27:17 and have limited computational power. 22:27:45 There's that early DNA computer that solved a seven-node Hamiltonian path problem. 22:27:53 OK, we are officially taking about using these spores for computation. 22:27:59 hahaha 22:28:26 Any other uses are only to be considered in the context of helping the development of the aforementioned. 22:28:37 indeed. 22:28:39 Nayebi, A (2009). "Parallel DNA implementation of fast matrix multiplication techniques based on an n-moduli set". arXiv: 0912.0750: 1–15. 22:28:43 Oo, they've been doing more. 22:28:46 how does a "DNA computer" work. 22:28:51 also: you guys are seriously paranoid. 22:28:57 "What's that bubbling? Oh, I'm just multiplying some matrices." 22:29:44 "It's just my DNA 3D card." 22:30:07 "Goo-ware". 22:30:43 von neumann machines? 22:30:46 "A design called a stem loop, consisting of a single strand of DNA which has a loop at an end, are a dynamic structure that opens and closes when a piece of DNA bonds to the loop part. This effect has been exploited to create several logic gates. These logic gates have been used to create the computers MAYA I and MAYA II which can play tic-tac-toe to some extent." 22:30:48 Heh. 22:30:58 CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. 22:31:35 It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. 22:32:24 -!- ehirdiphone has joined. 22:32:35 Hii 22:32:37 ehirdiphone: howdy. 22:33:00 `addquote how does a "DNA computer" work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. 22:33:29 187| how does a "DNA computer" work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. 22:33:32 * Phantom_Hoover wonders what reality's license is 22:33:34 Phantom_Hoover: mind you if you do it right, the universe won't know what hit it anyhow 22:33:47 Phantom_Hoover: copyright. Apple. 22:34:02 Did you know? Pus is mostly bacterial DNA. 22:34:11 .... 22:34:11 We need to start a sky survey searching for some galaxies that spell "COPYING". 22:34:12 I see. 22:34:34 Phantom_Hoover: ha. yes. in English for maximum lulz. 22:35:25 coppro: CakeProphe. 22:35:35 Phantom_Hoover: no no the copyright is encoded in the digits of pi. haven't you read Contact? (/me hasn't read all of it either actually) 22:35:44 I have not. 22:36:00 fizzie, iirc there was tic tac toe in DNA 22:36:02 remember that 22:36:02 But surely it'd show up in frequency analysis? 22:36:04 ehirdiphone: oops. Can the quote be amended? 22:36:11 oerjan: Contact was prime numbers 22:36:28 AnMaster, I recall a XOR gate done interestingly. 22:36:29 Phantom_Hoover: it's a bit beyond the digits we can calculate _yet_ 22:36:38 coppro: help for link then revert latest rev. No 22:36:39 oerjan, what base? 22:36:50 If it's hex, it should be easy. 22:36:51 Phantom_Hoover: base pi 22:36:53 Phantom_Hoover: septendecimal 22:36:57 ehirdiphone: lazy 22:36:57 The message is 1. 22:37:09 coppro: Takes two seconds. 22:37:14 I must go now anyway. 22:37:20 `help 22:37:21 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 22:37:29 `hg help 22:37:31 Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ list of commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ addremove add all new files, delete all missing files \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ archive create an unversioned archive of a repository revision \ backout reverse 22:37:35 ehirdiphone, reminds me of the macguffin in The Algebraist. 22:37:36 sigh 22:37:37 `reverse 22:37:39 No output. 22:37:43 Click the link coppro 22:37:46 bleh 22:37:46 Phantom_Hoover, iirc they were one time use only 22:37:55 then use revert command 22:37:57 Phantom_Hoover, so you had to make new chemicals to play again 22:37:57 `rm -h 22:37:59 No output. 22:37:59 :) 22:38:00 Just revert 22:38:03 Not hg revert 22:38:09 oh, better idea 22:38:19 AnMaster, IIRC that's why the XOR gate was interesting. 22:38:20 `which sponge 22:38:21 It shows revision number on hg 22:38:21 No output. 22:38:23 darn 22:38:23 Page 22:38:29 Just do it >_< 22:38:33 Phantom_Hoover, hm? 22:38:33 It's trivial 22:38:34 `revert 22:38:35 `revert 22:38:36 Done. 22:38:37 Done. 22:38:38 oops 22:38:40 Fsck. 22:38:45 Sigh 22:38:50 oerjan: you need to readd the last quote 22:38:55 reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it 22:38:57 ... 22:38:58 night 22:39:06 Just revet to later revision 22:39:13 look, I have no clue how 22:39:14 you do it 22:39:24 coppro: `addquote followed by the quote 22:39:24 I CANT TYPE BACKQUOTES 22:39:29 ais523: No 22:39:30 ais523: not that 22:39:32 ah 22:39:38 coppro: Use help command 22:39:43 what /have/ you lot been doing to HackEgo? 22:39:50 ais523: I typoed a quote 22:39:57 `help revert 22:39:58 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 22:40:02 Ni. J 22:40:04 No 22:40:07 Just help 22:40:10 `revert 1516:777246c07e8a 22:40:10 Click the link 22:40:21 FFS 22:40:30 `revert 1516 22:40:32 Done. 22:40:34 Listen to me if you are going to ask for help 22:40:43 >`addquote how does a "DNA computer" work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. 22:40:46 `addquote how does a "DNA computer" work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. 22:40:46 That goes TO a revision. 22:40:48 187| how does a "DNA computer" work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, that's boring in the context of DNA. It's just stealing the universe's work and passing it off as our own. 22:40:52 Not to one before it. 22:41:09 Did you enter the good revision or one after? 22:41:10 yes; 1517 was mine; 1516 was the previous one accidentally reverted 22:41:19 Okay. 22:41:30 `quote playboy 22:41:31 186| reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays after all, 22:41:37 ... 22:41:39 wtf 22:41:47 huh it didn't get all 22:42:02 !haskell type Test 22:42:16 you know what? 22:42:25 `quote neumann 22:42:26 whut? 22:42:27 187| how does a DNA computer work. von neumann machines? CakeProphet, thats boring in the context of DNA. Its just stealing the 22:42:41 that's cut off _too_ 22:43:04 hmmm.. apparently GHCi doesn't except type declarations 22:43:15 *accept 22:43:27 -!- oklopol has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:43:39 CakeProphet: nope. !haskell accepts a full module instead of ghci commands if you like, however 22:43:58 `quote 22:43:59 131| So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot. 22:44:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:44:19 `quote bottle 22:44:20 131| So, 22:44:24 aha! 22:44:29 `quote 186 22:44:30 186| reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it 22:44:40 hmm, seems to be a bug in playback rather than recording 22:44:50 Gregor: something is wrong with HackEgo's `quote when using search, it gets cut off 22:45:10 `quote 131 22:45:11 131| So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot. 22:45:13 Why is quotes.db sqlite? 22:45:20 Instead of plain text? 22:45:27 Dumbtarded. 22:45:41 I vow to make botte better! 22:46:04 currently HackEgo is better than botte though 22:46:19 Currently you suck. 22:46:19 fungot is my favorite. 22:46:20 CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head. 22:46:40 quotes.db should just be NSV 22:46:41 Someone quote that 22:46:50 I can't type backquotes 22:47:00 coppro: aka "unix text file" 22:47:12 Or "unix database" :P 22:47:32 -!- oklopol has joined. 22:47:35 those are whitespace-sparated, not NUL-separated 22:47:38 oklopol: mornin' 22:47:41 line numbering tool to give quote numbers, grep for the search 22:47:45 job done 22:48:01 coppro: Not as far as grep sed awk... are concerned 22:48:01 fungot: what is love? 22:48:02 CakeProphet: if you need a wand of undead turning is stupid. odin is usually depicted as a boy he used to describe the occasional village through which they had called it simply biter. they were not trolls but giant orcs; but the olog-hai were in proportion, and an odd color; but all accounts.' ( the fellowship of the ottoman turks, which means old god, was the reason for his master was to be fatal! 22:48:05 Oh NUL? 22:48:12 coppro: No need for nul 22:48:20 Can't type \n on irc. 22:48:27 in the file I mean 22:48:34 oh, I suppose 22:48:39 Why nul? Just use \n. 22:48:42 ...where does fungot get these words. 22:48:43 CakeProphet: they say that you can wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or avoid the gaze of the head of the oak root. bearing it down so far would have been driven out/ decimated by humans/ other dwarfs/ minions of the reasons for its use in hand-to-hand combat; wrap it round your head to browse on the peels. 22:48:54 ... I need to abbreviate his name 22:48:59 Then you can use line numbering tools, grep, etc. 22:49:24 ahahaha. they say that you can wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or avoid the gaze of the head of the oak root. 22:49:27 that was actually coherent. 22:49:29 Someone please quote "Reading Herbert might be..." by fungot 22:49:29 ehirdiphone: they say that an opulent throne room is rarely a place to wish you'd be in quiet lands, or coiling for the enormous egg, or set in another light, i saw what he had dwelt there for about thirteen years, during which time he received it, " hey guys, *wield* a lizard corpse against a cockatrice going to check on the whole course of known life from the north star. ( samurai the story of the higher branches of trees. th 22:49:31 ais523? 22:49:38 I can't type backquotes 22:49:40 yes? 22:49:47 See above 22:49:51 oh, fungot quote 22:49:51 ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only. 22:49:53 Please quote etc. 22:50:01 ...also that 22:50:12 `addquote CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head. 22:50:13 ais523: they say that a plain nymph will be tempted to hit the ceiling!' wailed legolas. ' imp' is often written about. 22:50:14 188| CakeProphet: reading herbert might be enlightening in one hand he held a long worm can be greased. twice i got it nearly there, and the protector of cattle. mars is also mentioned as a rainbow. as a seated baboon sometimes with its head. 22:50:19 took a while to find in scrollback 22:50:27 wailed legolas 22:50:31 `quote ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only. 22:50:32 ais523: they say that some horns play hot music and others are too graphic for the treasure their victims may be very pleased if you don't cut yourself. 22:50:33 No output. 22:50:36 he has a LotR dictionary apparently. 22:50:44 ais523: Addquote 22:50:47 CakeProphet: 22:50:49 style 22:50:55 Use style command to see 22:50:57 `addquote ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only. 22:50:58 ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. 22:50:59 189| ais523: killer bunnies can be harmed by domesticated canines only. 22:51:01 ^style 22:51:02 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack* pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:51:03 Star means current style. 22:51:10 ais523: Also that 22:51:15 (health food) 22:51:19 He's on a roll! 22:51:22 we can't have too much fungot in HackEgo... 22:51:32 `quote ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. 22:51:34 No output. 22:51:38 `adquote ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. 22:51:39 No output. 22:51:40 Indeed. You can never have too much fungot. 22:51:40 ehirdiphone: they say that some shopkeepers consider gems to be quite low. just keep falling!" the poor quarters of this town. in the air and over the world a grid bug won't pay a shopkeeper brings bad luck. 22:51:40 `addquote ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. 22:51:41 ais523: they say that the same demon, one would go endlessly along its twisting paths without ever finding the exit! 22:51:43 190| ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. 22:51:52 I wonder how literal that is? 22:52:09 ‘quote 22:52:10 Bah 22:52:19 ./dat/rumors.tru:They say that cave spiders are not considered expensive health food. 22:52:25 What ASCII is backquote? 22:52:27 so it's been munged quite a bit 22:52:28 ehirdiphone: can you copypasta? 22:52:34 and 96 from memory 22:52:38 !haskell fromEnum '`' 22:52:39 96 22:52:42 `c printf("%d",'`') 22:52:43 No output. 22:52:50 `c printf("%d",'`'); 22:52:51 No output. 22:52:55 hmm 22:52:59 !help 22:52:59 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 22:53:02 !c printf("%d\n",'`'); 22:53:05 wrong bot :) 22:53:06 96 22:53:09 !help userinterps 22:53:09 userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp. 22:53:24 also, I'm worried that I know the ASCII index of backquote off by heart 22:53:44 !addinterp he sh echo -n '`'; cat 22:53:44 Interpreter he installed. 22:53:46 !haskell toEnum 96 :: Char -- ??? 22:53:48 '`' 22:53:51 !he quote 22:53:51 `quote 22:53:53 140| oklopol geez what are you doing here ...i don't know :< i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things... 22:53:57 Yay. 22:54:00 that's ingenious 22:54:28 wait, HackEgo doesn't ignore EgoBot? 22:54:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:54:40 ^style discworld 22:54:41 Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books) 22:54:42 oerjan: they're a happy family. 22:54:48 (Botloop time!) 22:54:51 What's the word, fungot? 22:54:52 oerjan: most of the bots have ignores, but not that particular set IIRC 22:54:52 CakeProphet: ' and who died of blood poisoning?' said 22:54:52 we all know what that means, right? *cackles evilly* 22:54:58 `echo !help 22:54:59 !help 22:55:04 and I think EgoBot ignores HackEgo 22:55:10 darn 22:55:18 !he echo !he echo !he echo Okay, stop! 22:55:19 `echo !he echo !he echo Okay, stop! 22:55:20 !he echo !he echo Okay, stop! 22:55:26 Indeed. 22:55:34 Aww. 22:55:53 `echo ^ul (test)S 22:55:54 ^ul (test)S 22:56:01 :( 22:56:13 fungot is the most ignory bot. 22:56:14 ehirdiphone: ' and the sound of distant chanting followed them. lu-tze, for the professor of anthropics, who had been left between the walls. 22:56:24 IT WOULD APPEAR OUR PLANS HAVE BEEN THWARTED 22:56:28 !he style irc 22:56:28 `style irc 22:56:29 clog and HackEgo don't ignore each other... 22:56:29 ^bf >>,[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++.!` 22:56:29 96. 22:56:29 No output. 22:56:45 ^style irc 22:56:45 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 22:56:50 ais523: Yes, but... 22:56:56 ais523: clog doesn't send messages to the channel 22:57:06 ^def asc bf >>,[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++. 22:57:07 Defined. 22:57:09 ^asc ` 22:57:09 96. 22:57:10 ^save 22:57:10 oerjan: I know 22:57:11 OK. 22:57:13 !haskell let backquote = ((toEnum 96):) in print $ backquote "echo sup" 22:57:14 Hey can someone remind me of an idea tomorrow or the day after? 22:57:15 "`echo sup" 22:57:17 There, the first actually useful fungot command. 22:57:17 fizzie: i mean the 22:57:18 ....ha 22:57:20 not print 22:57:27 !haskell let backquote = ((toEnum 96):) in backquote "echo sup" 22:57:28 ^asc é 22:57:29 "`echo sup" 22:57:29 195. 22:57:36 fizzie: Call it ^ord 22:57:51 And have the reverse, ^chr, if possible. 22:57:52 ehirdiphone: In retrospect, that would have been a better name. But I don't have an ^undef. :p 22:57:54 !haskell let backquote = ((toEnum 96):) in putStrLn $ backquote "echo sup" 22:57:56 `echo sup 22:57:57 sup 22:58:06 fizzie: Eh, call it ^ord too. 22:58:14 The more the merrier. 22:58:20 ^def ord bf >>,[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++. 22:58:20 Defined. 22:58:22 ^save 22:58:22 OK. 22:58:26 Maybe I can clean up 'asc' later. 22:58:32 Also maybe it should loop. 22:58:42 !python print "Test" 22:58:56 ^ord “ 22:58:56 226. 22:59:02 ” 22:59:07 ^ord bugtest 22:59:08 98. 22:59:09 fizzie: I love the . 22:59:33 ^def ord bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>,] 22:59:33 Defined. 22:59:36 ^ord bugtest 22:59:37 98 117 103 116 101 115 116 22:59:39 There. 22:59:40 Nobody want to remind me of my idea? :P 22:59:45 ^save 22:59:45 OK. 22:59:49 fizzie: No! Add the .! 22:59:50 ....there's no way I could comprehend that bf program. 22:59:55 the nested loops are ridiculous. 23:00:05 It was so... Decisive. 23:00:15 ehirdiphone: Yes, I believe you were about to tell us your idea. 23:00:15 It was actually a newline. :p 23:00:28 I can put one at the end if you like. 23:00:33 ^def ord bf >>,[[-<++>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[-<+>[<[-]+>->+<[<-]]]]]]]]]]>]<<[>++++++[<++++++++>-]<-.[-]<]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]>>,]. 23:00:34 Defined. 23:00:46 !help 23:00:47 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 23:00:53 !help languages 23:00:54 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 23:01:00 fizzie: If you could add a comma betwixt characters that'd be cool too. :P 23:01:01 !help userinterps 23:01:02 userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp. 23:01:13 cpressey: It's secret! :P 23:01:18 what does "betwixt" actually means? 23:01:20 !addinterp 23:01:21 There is already an interpreter for ! 23:01:29 *actually mean 23:01:40 ais523: RTFDictionary :P 23:01:44 ehirdiphone: Why do you need reminding -- do you think you'll forget it? Do you not have access to paper? 23:01:52 Afaik just fancy "between". 23:01:53 `define betwixt 23:01:56 No output. 23:01:57 cpressey: Shaddap 23:01:58 If you don't, I would believe that, but it's very sad. 23:01:58 !userinterps 23:01:59 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes chaos chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl drome dubya echo eehird ehird fudd funetak google graph gregor he hello id jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 23:02:13 hmm, what happened to `define? 23:02:15 cpressey: I've paper but... Meh 23:02:16 ais523: Wordnet has just 1. between, betwixt -- (in the interval; "dancing all the dances with little rest between") 23:02:16 !redneck Hey guys how are you all doing? 23:02:18 Hey folks how are yew all doin'? 23:02:24 ehirdiphone: I'm not trying to be difficult, just overly curious maybe. 23:02:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:03:08 !dubya Hello my name is Georgia W Bush 23:03:09 Hello my name is Georgia W Bush 23:03:10 cpressey: I don't like bringing things back. Nice to have a weekend without that crap. 23:03:21 Plus my handwriting is horrendous. 23:03:25 I should maybe add a smith interpreter to egobot someday. Yeah, like I don't have enough things to do. 23:03:31 !kraut Is this kraut as in krautrock? 23:03:31 And I am supposed to be sleeping. 23:03:32 Ist das kraut as in krautrock? 23:03:49 !kraut broken 23:03:50 broken 23:03:51 !reverse surely 23:03:52 ylerus 23:03:59 ITYM "kaput" 23:04:08 ais523: HackEgo has never had define that i recall, you just use cat >bin/whatever 23:04:17 ^scramble scramble in the bramble 23:04:18 srml ntebabelmr h iebac 23:04:24 oerjan: As in dictionary. 23:04:25 ^unscramble surely 23:04:25 syulre 23:04:26 oerjan: I mean, I thought it looked up Google Dictionary 23:04:51 !sffffffffedeesh Hello my name is CakeProphet I like to program in esoteric programming languages and make BLACK MAGIC 23:04:52 Hellu my neme-a is CekePruphet I leeke-a tu prugrem in isutereec prugremmeeng lungooeges und meke-a BLECK MEGIC 23:04:55 ais523: oh that. all the google-based commands broke in one of google's redesigns, i thikn 23:04:59 *think 23:05:02 ah 23:05:02 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:07:14 !haskell map putStrLn $ take 3 $ repeat "fungot" 23:07:15 CakeProphet: chicken has a profiler too... of course you have to edit the makefile must support a dase, simply classify the dase list into supported by 3 implementations, 5 implementations, more implementations. 23:07:24 CakeProphet: mapM_ 23:07:25 ....ha 23:07:28 right. 23:07:40 with an underscore? What version is that? 23:07:42 CakeProphet: Also replicate 23:07:53 CakeProphet: the one that throws away the result value 23:07:53 M (£ return 23:07:55 () 23:08:01 Not m [a] 23:08:10 !haskell :t mapM_ 23:08:11 mapM_ :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m () 23:08:31 !haskell :t mapM 23:08:32 mapM :: (Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b] 23:08:43 ah 23:08:51 !haskell :t replicate 23:08:52 replicate :: Int -> a -> [a] 23:08:54 ah... 23:09:00 same thing. 23:09:02 !haskell mapM_ putStrLn (replicate 3 "fungot") 23:09:03 ehirdiphone: bf2a version 0.2? 23:09:03 fungot 23:09:05 but more concise 23:09:07 !haskell mapM_ putStrLn $ take 3 $ repeat "fungot" 23:09:08 CakeProphet: it really depends on how your keyboard is wired, certain combinations of keys to generate a content that fnord the " error" 23:09:08 fungot 23:09:24 !haskell :t replicateM 23:09:28 oh my. fnord? 23:09:42 ....so many Haskell monad functions that I don't know very well. 23:09:46 that probably needs an import. although why no DCC... 23:09:55 It's that time again. Good evening, all. 23:10:02 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:10:06 bye cpressey 23:10:16 !haskell :t Control.Monad.replicateM 23:10:18 Control.Monad.replicateM :: (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a] 23:10:23 !haskell putStrLn . unwords $ replicate 3 "fungot" 23:10:23 ehirdiphone: fnord fnord 27.00 1 fnord eest 1999 i686 unknown 23:10:24 fungot fungot fungot 23:10:45 ah right ghci does autoimporting 23:11:04 Bye cpressey, god inamongst men. May your ephemera persist indefinitely! Amen. 23:11:16 !haskell let spam = Control.Monad.replicateM in spam 3 $ putStr "yo dawg" 23:11:18 yo dawgyo dawgyo dawg[(),(),()] 23:11:24 oerjan: HackBot always truncates its output, it's not `quote-specific. 23:11:39 Gregor-P: You don't understand 23:11:48 someone run quote bottle 23:12:04 see..... 23:12:09 I don't understand why all of the list functions 23:12:09 Gregor-P: It truncated a quote to "So,". 23:12:15 aren't just monad functions in general. 23:12:22 or would that not work out? 23:12:28 Gregor-P: it truncated much more than usual 23:12:36 `quote playboy 23:12:37 186| reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays after all, 23:12:43 `quote 186 23:12:44 186| reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it 23:12:46 CakeProphet: Because it's nice to write purely functional list code. 23:12:55 oerjan: ! 23:12:58 well I mean. 23:12:58 `quote , 23:13:00 No output. 23:13:04 it seems like you could merge replicate and replicateM somehow. 23:13:08 `quote 23:13:10 116| s/Hebrew/senile/ 23:13:12 `quote 23:13:13 It truncates after commas. 23:13:14 102| I want to read about Paris in the period 1900-1914 not about the sexual preferences of a bunch of writers >.> 23:13:20 yes, that's my current theory 23:13:22 `quote 23:13:24 3| EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" 23:14:06 ais523: it only truncates when you give it a string to search for 23:14:09 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null). 23:14:16 quote Paris 23:14:18 `quote Paris 23:14:20 oerjan: I know 23:14:20 102| I want to read about Paris in the period 1900-1914 not about the sexual preferences of a bunch of writers >.> 23:14:28 I also suspect that in such a case, it only truncates at commas 23:14:29 -!- augur has joined. 23:14:40 `quote is 23:14:42 2| I used computational linguistics to kill her. 4| i read paths as penis :( 5| Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... More practice is in order. 9| His body should be given to science. 23:14:59 ais523: heh it left in a comma there 23:15:04 it did 23:15:09 !he quote poop 23:15:10 `quote poop 23:15:11 167| like, just like Id mark "Bob knob hobs deathly poop violation EXCREMENT unto;" as English alise: thats great filler ais523: well it contains all the important words in the english language... 23:15:12 but then, it gave multiple outut 23:15:15 *output 23:15:21 Id? 23:15:22 yep 23:15:25 I said I'd. 23:15:36 It cut the apostrophe. 23:15:39 WTF. 23:15:45 I agree on the WTF here 23:15:58 ("I'd" can be verified on hg history page.) 23:16:01 theory: the output's being sent over a shell unquoted 23:16:12 I bet there's some way you could make arbitrary functions pattern matchable. 23:16:24 CakeProphet: Nope. 23:16:32 I didn't say it would be clean. 23:16:36 !he quote ... 23:16:37 `quote ... 23:16:38 No output. 23:16:46 !he quote ! 23:16:46 `quote ! 23:16:48 No output. 23:16:49 -!- coppro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:16:53 what I mean to say 23:17:04 is I bet you can write code that allows /your/ functions to be pattern matchable. 23:17:19 essentially like defining an inverse for a function or something similar. 23:17:35 addquote [backtick]echo hi[backtick] 23:17:41 Someone run that 23:17:45 ais523 23:17:45 CakeProphet: replicate and replicateM don't have compatible types, there is no way to make a monad for which m a = a exactly as types 23:17:59 `addquote `echo hi` 23:18:02 191|`echo hi` 23:18:08 `quote echo 23:18:10 191|`echo hi` 23:18:18 W. T. F. 23:18:21 `delquote 191 23:18:22 No output. 23:18:27 Someone read bin/quote. 23:18:29 hmm, presumably you can't easily get rid of them 23:18:37 CakeProphet: and in fact not allowing type definitions such as type M a = a to have typeclass instances is a vital restriction to make the typeclass system decidable 23:18:42 !he revert 23:18:43 `revert 23:18:44 Done. 23:18:49 `quote 191 23:18:50 191|`echo hi` 23:19:02 Ah. Provide revision # 23:19:06 !he help 23:19:06 `help 23:19:07 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:19:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:19:19 Oh, go implement your own damned `delquote 23:19:30 CakeProphet: oh wait hm i'm misremembering what the types are aren't i 23:19:36 !he revert 1522 23:19:37 `revert 1522 23:19:38 Done. 23:19:39 !haskell :t replicate 23:19:41 replicate :: Int -> a -> [a] 23:19:49 !haskell :t Control.Monad.replicateM 23:19:50 Control.Monad.replicateM :: (Monad m) => Int -> m a -> m [a] 23:19:58 Gregor-P: Fix the bot :| 23:20:09 CakeProphet: ah no that's exactly what i said 23:20:18 oerjan: couldn't tell you. :) 23:21:29 hmm, the cause of the market crash on May 6 was discovered, and it's hilarious 23:22:11 `cat bin/quote 23:22:12 #!/bin/bash \ DB="sqlite3 quotes/quote.db" \ \ if [ "$1" ] \ then \ ARG=$1 \ ID=$((ARG+0)) \ if [ "$ID" = "$ARG" ] \ then \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE id='$ID \ else \ ARG=`echo "$ARG" | sed 's/'\''/'\'\''/g'` \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE 23:22:30 oerjan: Use the repo viewer 23:22:32 basically, it seems that the high-frequency computer traders hit on the ingenious idea of rapidly posting huge numbers of trade requests that wouldn't be fulfilled because they were miles outside the normal trade rates, in an attempt to DOS their competitors 23:22:35 !he help 23:22:35 `help 23:22:36 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:23:09 (adds to the disorienting conversation throughput) fungot 23:23:10 CakeProphet: so you meant " only it doesn't work :( too hard... afk then :) if you can write the mean of a list 23:23:23 ais523: It's basically nuclear war over ethernet... 23:23:39 ha. if you can write the mean of a list. 23:23:54 yes, anyway there was apparently a small swing in the market that meant some of these crazy trades were accepted 23:23:58 and it all went insane from there 23:24:11 also, the markets were lagging due to everyone trying to DOS each other 23:25:49 So. 23:26:10 `tail bin/quote 23:26:11 $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE id='$ID \ else \ ARG=`echo "$ARG" | sed 's/'\''/'\'\''/g'` \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE '\''%'"$ARG"'%'\' | xargs echo \ fi \ \ else \ $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes ORDER BY RANDOM() LIMIT 1' \ \ fi 23:26:26 can type declarations in Haskell be recursive as long as they terminate? 23:26:45 -!- coppro has joined. 23:26:46 type, for clarification, not data. 23:26:47 CakeProphet: how could they possibly terminate? 23:27:07 oerjan: hmmm, well if you give them parameters and pattern matching. 23:27:25 _example_ please 23:27:25 they could terminate then, technically. 23:28:26 hmmm... I was going to try Peano arithmetic but I am trouble formulating how it would work. I think what I had in mind is dependent types, actually. 23:29:04 ais523: it seems that case gets sent through xargs echo 23:29:18 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:29:23 that wouldn't break on commas, though, or delete single quotes 23:29:40 hmm, perhaps it's going through a round of SQL unescaping, or something like that? 23:29:57 could be 23:30:42 type Zero; type 23:30:43 ...er 23:30:45 disregard 23:31:11 CakeProphet is reinventing type theory. Badly. 23:31:13 `grep xargs bin/quote 23:31:15 No output. 23:31:23 `run grep xargs bin/quote 23:31:24 $DB 'SELECT id,quote FROM quotes WHERE quote LIKE '\''%'"$ARG"'%'\' | xargs echo 23:31:31 !he help 23:31:31 `help 23:31:32 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 23:31:37 Just look at the file! 23:32:22 `run sed 's/xargs echo/fmt -w500' bin/quote > bin/quote2 23:32:23 No output. 23:32:30 `ls bin/quote2 23:32:34 bin/quote2 23:32:44 `chmod +x bin/quote2 23:32:47 No output. 23:32:50 er 23:32:54 `run chmod +x bin/quote2 23:32:55 No output. 23:32:57 !he quote2 bottle 23:32:59 `quote2 bottle 23:33:00 No output. 23:33:05 what 23:33:13 !he quote2 23:33:13 `quote2 23:33:15 No output. 23:33:16 `cat bin/quote2 23:33:18 No output. 23:33:22 sheesh 23:33:23 wat. 23:33:32 type Zero; type Succ a; type Add Zero y = y; Add x Zero = x; Add x (Succ b) = Add (Succ x) b 23:33:35 :) 23:33:38 oh hm 23:33:47 oerjan: Sed error 23:33:52 You forgot / 23:34:00 oh 23:34:06 CakeProphet: Type families can do this 23:34:10 `run sed 's/xargs echo/fmt -w500/' bin/quote > bin/quote2 23:34:11 In recent ghc 23:34:12 No output. 23:34:22 `quote2 bottle 23:34:22 ehirdiphone: type families? 23:34:24 131| So, I'm inside a bottle which is being carried by a robot. 159| if you claim that the universe is more than 3D the burden of proof is on you to produce a klien bottle that doesn't self intersect ^ I learned that trick from atheists 23:34:38 `run mv bin/quote2 bin/quote 23:34:39 No output. 23:34:40 CakeProphet: Google it. 23:34:49 !he quote sexy 23:34:50 `quote sexy 23:34:52 109| What do you call the husband of my first cousin once removed? Warrigal: "Hey, Sexy." 23:34:55 `quote playboy 23:34:56 186| reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it 23:35:00 Sexy quote system! 23:35:00 ehirdiphone: Google is destroying conversations all over the world. :( 23:35:02 * CakeProphet googles it. 23:35:16 ais523: it would appear the xargs echo _was_ the culprit 23:35:22 apparently so 23:35:45 Elementary, my dear Watson. 23:36:04 ehirdiphone: oh. neat. 23:36:30 CakeProphet: http://ehird.blogspot.com/ 23:36:35 has arithmetic 23:36:48 Some parts are broken as I note in the post 23:37:13 http://ehird.blogspot.com/2010/01/computing-fib3-in-haskells-type-system.html 23:37:15 Gregor-P: ok we actually _did_ fix a command ourselves. happy? :D 23:37:54 ehirdiphone: C++ templates do too :P 23:38:43 oerjan: Monkeypatching doesn't count X-P 23:39:38 Gregor-P: That's not what monkeypatching is; and quit whining. 23:40:30 That is what monkeypatching is though... 23:42:09 No. 23:42:13 The Futurama admins are Reddit fans 23:42:25 Erm, the Reddit admins are Futurama fans 23:42:34 Monkeypatching is a program modifying functions or a class it does not own at runtime. 23:42:45 ehirdiphone: What extension allows instance (N n) => N (S n) 23:42:48 What you refer to is 'patching'. 23:42:55 CakeProphet: None. 23:43:09 It's valid Haskell '98. 23:43:37 oh... hmm. I've just never seen an instance declaration like that. Or maybe my brain is dead right now. 23:44:01 oh I see... nevermind. 23:44:15 the class constraint and single-character variables were confusing me. 23:44:16 CakeProphet: try the Show instance for lists 23:44:56 essentially (S n) is an instance of N as long as n is an instance of N. got it. 23:45:33 does Haskell 98 allow the instance/typeclass declarations to be empty like that? 23:46:36 CakeProphet: i don't recall 23:48:19 haskell 98 does have some braindead restrictions though, for example instance (N n) => N (S Int n) is invalid, only variables are permitted inside S 23:48:34 -!- jix has quit (Read error: No route to host). 23:51:45 ehirdiphone: would having two declarations for Show fix the overlapping instances thing? 23:53:21 L3£eh!eh! 23:53:25 Eh? 23:53:55 um having two declarations that overlap is usually what _causes_ it, n'est pas? 23:54:37 CakeProphet: Just use toNum 23:54:45 And rip out the show stuff. 23:55:02 It can be made to work but meh. 23:59:09 I now want to implement linked lists with types. :)