←2010-07-05 2010-07-06 2010-07-07→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:04 <pikhq> Aside from the absurd error checking...
00:00:15 <pikhq> (mmm, correctness)
00:00:45 <coppro> I feel weird. I found a practical use for BF
00:00:55 <AnMaster> coppro, oh what is it?
00:01:15 <Sgeo> "I want to learn C#" "Go to this site, it's how I learned" "But you already had some programming experience"
00:01:15 <Sgeo> I just suggested Python or C
00:01:22 -!- aliseiphone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:01:32 <coppro> For "encrypting" a file - not to actually protect the data, but just discourage casual observers. Run the following program, which interestingly enough has each symbol exactly once: +[>,-.<]
00:01:48 <coppro> run it again with s/-/+/ to un"encrypt" it
00:02:19 <coppro> and the BF program is shorter than the equivalent in nearly every other language
00:02:30 -!- aliseiphone has joined.
00:02:32 <aliseiphone> The current code is short but doesn't clearly express the fundamental idea "compute a CRC32 checksum". Remember, commands are the functions of the Unix OS.
00:02:35 <coppro> actually, waitaminute
00:02:37 <coppro> that won't work
00:02:47 <aliseiphone> pikhq: did you get "Look at your..."?
00:02:49 <coppro> I forgot how BF behaves when it runs out of input
00:02:59 <coppro> +[,-.+] will do it
00:03:05 <aliseiphone> coppro: sets cell to 0 mostly
00:03:14 <aliseiphone> sometimes unchangef
00:03:15 <coppro> hmm... off-by-one error
00:03:20 <aliseiphone> *unchangef
00:03:24 <aliseiphone> *unchanged
00:03:34 <coppro> ,[-.,]
00:03:38 <pikhq> aliseiphone: No.
00:03:38 <aliseiphone> which my phone autocorrects to unchangef
00:03:46 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Yes.
00:03:51 <coppro> aliseiphone: what a fantastic phone i must buy one now
00:03:52 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Oh, I see.
00:03:58 <pikhq> "Look at your..." ?
00:04:34 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Look at your original code. That expressed your intent incredibly clearly. Strip useless options. Get rid of the, yes, absurd error checking.
00:04:37 <aliseiphone> The current code is short but doesn't clearly express the fundamental idea "compute a CRC32 checksum". Remember, commands are the functions of the Unix OS.
00:04:38 <aliseiphone> Y
00:04:52 <aliseiphone> *That's what I said.
00:05:10 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Okay, so screw the error checking that I added on a bizarre whim.
00:05:29 <Sgeo> aliseiphone tends to be anti-feature though (j/k)
00:05:37 <pikhq> I think I can keep the fopen error checking.
00:05:38 <aliseiphone> And functions shouldn't have unneccessary cruft. When writing functions, how many flags do they have?
00:05:43 <pikhq> Otherwise? Pffft.
00:05:46 <aliseiphone> Usually, very few.
00:06:07 <aliseiphone> You nest (pipe) functions (commands) instead.
00:06:20 <pikhq> aliseiphone: POSIX requires the argument.
00:06:28 <aliseiphone> So, do try and remove all flags that significantly complicate your code.
00:06:44 <aliseiphone> pikhq: POSIX compliance is an amusing fiction.
00:06:55 <pikhq> And almost all UNIXes implement that.
00:06:58 <aliseiphone> Nothing actually *uses* cksum(1).
00:07:01 <pikhq> Even Heirloom.
00:07:09 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Fine, fine.
00:07:28 <aliseiphone> Separate the code common to the arguments. Say into a function.
00:07:36 * pikhq does so
00:07:56 <aliseiphone> "if(flag)" in actually-computing code is lame. :P
00:08:17 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> pikhq: Look at your original code. That expressed your intent incredibly clearly. Strip useless options. Get rid of the, yes, absurd error checking.
00:08:18 <AnMaster> so
00:08:36 <AnMaster> correctness is less important than simplicity?
00:08:40 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, yes or no?
00:08:55 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Also, I do wonder if the octets blab might better belong in the BUGS section of cksum.1.
00:09:00 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, yes or no?
00:09:02 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: For Unix? Yes.
00:09:13 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, no
00:09:14 <AnMaster> IMO
00:09:19 <pikhq> aliseiphone: It probably does.
00:09:34 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Go fuck Multics.
00:09:42 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, lovely system
00:09:51 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Point made.
00:10:08 <aliseiphone> It didn't work properly, was one minor flaw.
00:10:45 <aliseiphone> I like the idea of a truly correct C program. Ha!
00:10:45 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, which one?
00:11:01 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, that would be awesome. But I suggest using haskell or such for that
00:11:23 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Also, I suggest removing the libc dependency and rewriting it in PDP-11 assembly.
00:11:36 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: a truly correct haskell program???
00:11:39 <aliseiphone> Hahaha
00:11:46 <pikhq> aliseiphone: :P
00:11:53 <aliseiphone> Clearly you know nothing of haskell :)
00:12:10 <pikhq> Also, this is coming out much more nicely.
00:12:18 <pikhq> Thanks for the sanity check, aliseiphone.
00:12:41 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Just call me "Ultimate Genius, Lord Over Everything".
00:12:46 <aliseiphone> That's all I ask for.
00:13:17 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ZWTV
00:13:24 <pikhq> Mmm.
00:14:11 <pikhq> Doesn't compile though XD
00:14:30 <pikhq> s/else {/} else {/
00:14:42 <pikhq> s/name/argv[1]/
00:15:06 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, yes, hello world in haskell, ought to be truly correct quite easily
00:15:18 <AnMaster> if you meant non-trivial then say so
00:16:07 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Additional, nitpicking suggestions: Put the CRC function first; the UI is cruft, not the important bit; try and reduce the nesting of the UI logic; and use "!strcmp" rather than "strcmp(...) == 0". But these are minutiae; the code is great.
00:16:21 <pikhq> *argh*
00:16:26 <pikhq> MORE BUGS
00:16:37 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Other than the bugs
00:16:38 <pikhq> :P
00:16:44 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Have you ever considered being less of a pedant in informal conversation? It's a nice social lubricant.
00:16:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: As long as it *looks* elegant!
00:17:01 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Hah.
00:18:33 <aliseiphone> One day I must figure out how to write a truly elegant ls(1). It has so many interacting flags, but separating these into programs seems near-impossible!
00:18:57 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, you are officially being an idiot or a troll now
00:19:00 <AnMaster> which one I wonder
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00:20:44 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Oh? And which line made you decide this?
00:20:51 <AnMaster> <aliseiphone> One day I must figure out how to write a truly elegant ls(1). It has so many interacting flags, but separating these into programs seems near-impossible!
00:20:56 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, that one :P
00:21:29 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and ls without colour I won't use. I find the coloured output very very useful
00:21:32 <AnMaster> just FYI
00:21:59 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Oh, how I wish that I could return a tuple in C.
00:22:00 <aliseiphone> You are free to note that I can write ls(1) perfectly well, that a version with limited flags is very easy to make truly elegant, and that I have a very stringent definition of "trule elegant".
00:22:16 <AnMaster> trule :)
00:22:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, return struct on stack
00:22:38 <pikhq> Sorry, return one *and pattern match*.
00:22:43 <AnMaster> ah
00:22:50 <aliseiphone> Furthermore, I don't, never have, and never will give a damn about whether you will use my coreutils or not. Especially as I know you won't from the get-go.
00:22:51 <AnMaster> try haskell or erlang
00:23:05 <oerjan> patterns are no match for C
00:23:11 <AnMaster> oerjan, -_-
00:23:17 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/ZVMh
00:23:18 <pikhq> Bam.
00:23:18 <AnMaster> that was truly awful
00:23:37 <oerjan> gotta keep you on your toes
00:23:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, that's the original one aliseiphone hated?
00:23:52 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Thats the old one :P
00:23:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... ?
00:23:57 <aliseiphone> *That's
00:23:58 <pikhq> aliseiphone: OH
00:24:06 <pikhq> XD
00:24:16 <pikhq> Lemme get the right thing in the pastebuffer.
00:24:17 <aliseiphone> AnMaster speaks in a foreign language :P
00:24:20 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/GGWP
00:24:33 <oerjan> aliseiphone: inte omöjligt
00:24:49 <AnMaster> oerjan, instämmer med föregående Norske talare
00:24:51 <nooga> i'm in a pub :F
00:24:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: You have crc's prototype right before its definition.
00:25:02 <AnMaster> yeargh
00:25:06 <aliseiphone> This is... interestingly superfluous.
00:25:08 <pikhq> aliseiphone: ... Yearghright.
00:25:19 <nooga> oerjan: my bro is in norway and he's a f*#* genius if it comes to natural langs
00:25:24 <pikhq> Kill that line.
00:25:35 * oerjan aims and shoots
00:25:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, and put static on the next one
00:25:42 <oerjan> pikhq: it's dead
00:26:21 <aliseiphone> I need an ipad and
00:26:33 <aliseiphone> a keyboard here
00:26:33 <AnMaster> eww ipad
00:26:37 <nooga> he spent 3 weeks there and he actually speaks simple norwegian
00:26:40 <aliseiphone> and a compiler
00:26:50 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: try hiding a laptop
00:27:00 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, an ipad would be equally hard
00:27:06 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, also put a compiler on n900
00:27:09 <AnMaster> consider it done
00:27:10 <aliseiphone> wrong
00:27:34 <aliseiphone> knock on door, press button on ipad, rest on floor, hidden
00:27:36 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, _proper_ smartphones can run compilers
00:27:41 <aliseiphone> laptop... Not so quick.
00:27:50 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: so can the iphone
00:28:00 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, so do that then?
00:28:19 <nooga> oerjan: what does this mean?
00:28:20 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Keyboard. Screen real estate. Processing power.
00:28:39 <aliseiphone> 500mhz arm + small screen + touchscreen keyboard = no
00:28:48 <aliseiphone> thus the ipad wish
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00:29:23 <nooga> because he works for a guy that can't express feelings, he just passes information
00:29:30 <aliseiphone> oerjan: l- not ?
00:29:39 <nooga> and says somethin and then does something different
00:29:41 <aliseiphone> polish l :P
00:29:42 <oerjan> aliseiphone: what?
00:29:47 <nooga> he's in a village 'near' Floro
00:29:57 <aliseiphone> oerjan: Nooga said
00:30:12 <aliseiphone> "Micha[l-]"
00:30:19 <aliseiphone> Not "Micha?".
00:30:21 <oerjan> there was unicode? oh well.
00:30:24 <nooga> it's not Polish l
00:30:33 <nooga> its*
00:30:36 <aliseiphone> So is.
00:30:37 <nooga> its ł
00:30:49 <nooga> shiiiit no
00:30:51 <aliseiphone> Polish l.
00:30:51 <nooga> it's*
00:31:01 <nooga> l != ł
00:31:05 <AnMaster> nooga, oerjan fail at unicode
00:31:13 <aliseiphone> Polish fuck you!
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03:14:08 <AnMaster> wait
03:14:13 <AnMaster> how long has clog been missing
03:14:33 <AnMaster> argh several hours
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04:34:00 * pikhq would like to demonstrate how you do a Makefile, for everyone that makes it too complex.
04:34:02 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/IEXi
04:44:49 <cheater99> http://failblog.org/2010/07/05/epic-fail-photos-makeup-fail/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+failblog+(The+FAIL+Blog+-+Fail+Pictures+%26+Videos+at+Failblog.ORG)&utm_content=FaceBook
04:59:24 * pikhq is a-doing a coreutils
04:59:25 <pikhq> FTW
05:08:56 <AnMaster> <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/IEXi <-- I would add the .PHONY line, but otherwise I agree
05:09:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, also I would, if I had more programs, add PROGRAMS = foo bar quux
05:09:59 <AnMaster> then all: $(PROGRAMS)
05:10:03 <AnMaster> clean:
05:10:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah.
05:10:11 <AnMaster> rm -f $(PROGRAMS) *.o
05:10:24 <AnMaster> that way there is less duplication
05:10:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, but yes I agree with the general idea
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05:11:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, also how would you make one target link -lm there
05:12:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, I never figured out a clean way
05:12:06 <AnMaster> that is, with just implicit targets
05:18:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh, GNU make only, but there's a way to do per-target variables.
05:19:30 <pikhq> target: LDFLAGS += -lm
05:21:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah, well that puts it BEFORE the files iirc
05:21:45 <AnMaster> which break with -Wl,--as-needed
05:21:48 <AnMaster> in the environment
05:22:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, which might be an issue
05:23:13 <pikhq> AnMaster: Argh.
05:23:21 <pikhq> LDLIBS is what you want.
05:23:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, ?
05:23:25 <pikhq> That goes after.
05:23:30 <AnMaster> LDLIBS? or LIBS?
05:23:36 <pikhq> LDLIBS.
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05:25:33 <CakeProphet> :o
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05:25:40 <CakeProphet> hey folks.
05:26:01 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/BgXe It's 100% POSIX compliant cat!
05:26:17 <pikhq> (thank God they removed all the other options!)
05:27:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, fread!
05:27:55 <pikhq> It worries me greatly that most implementations of cat are actually complex.
05:27:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: NO
05:28:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, ought to be faster
05:28:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's fucking CAT
05:28:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I want to concatenate a dual-side dual-layer dvd image split on 1.44 MB floppies! ;P
05:28:50 <AnMaster> that needs a fast cat
05:29:09 <pikhq> ... "1.44 MB floppies".
05:29:22 <pikhq> No, that needs a cat that operates faster than the floppy drive.
05:29:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes?
05:29:34 <pikhq> I can guarantee that this is orders of magnitude faster.
05:29:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah but already copied the floppies to disk with dd
05:30:03 <pikhq> Still fast enough.
05:30:08 <AnMaster> pikhq, that is to a RAM disk
05:30:11 * Sgeo learns a lesson
05:30:15 <pikhq> Shaddup.
05:30:18 <Sgeo> NEVER code just for the happy case
05:30:28 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: oh of course.
05:30:30 <Sgeo> Even if, in production, the happy case will always be true
05:30:47 <Sgeo> Because in development, it isn't necessarily the case
05:31:24 <CakeProphet> Sgeo: well, it's a balancing act. It is helpful to consider worse-case scenarios in an algirthm, but if you do it too much you waste a lot of time with boilerplate code. Sometimes you should just let it crash.
05:32:56 * pikhq tries to find a list of utils that POSIX requires
05:33:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is in the POSIX standard
05:33:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, which is free
05:33:16 <pikhq> Yeah, found it
05:33:32 <CakeProphet> I still haven't seen error-handling in Haskell in action.
05:36:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: It doesn't have a single handy list, but it's possible to see if something's required. Which works for me.
05:36:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, it has a list on the side in the pdf bookmarks
05:36:39 <pikhq> Mmm.
05:37:42 <pikhq> Gash darnit, awk is mandatory.
05:38:55 * pikhq says no
05:39:06 <pikhq> I don't care what it says, that's seperate from coreutils.
05:40:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, sed it mandatory too
05:41:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, as is sh and vi
05:42:02 <AnMaster> cya
05:42:11 <pikhq> LALALACANTHEARYOU
05:42:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, hey you are not ehird :P
05:42:37 <AnMaster> stop doing that
05:43:44 <pikhq> :P
05:43:54 <AnMaster> pikhq, iirc getline() is in POSIX 2008 and suc
05:43:56 <AnMaster> such*
05:44:08 <AnMaster> the glibc people managed to get a few things in
05:44:20 <AnMaster> things that are actually quite useful in general
05:44:24 <AnMaster> a few useless ones too iirc
05:44:36 <AnMaster> bbl
06:06:58 <CakeProphet> so...
06:07:30 <CakeProphet> I have this piss cheap vodka that I do not want to finish off straight. But I don't want to throw it into a shitty mixed drink either if it isn't going to waste good
06:07:36 <CakeProphet> How does coke and vodka sound?
06:11:59 <CakeProphet> you know what
06:12:01 <CakeProphet> I don't even care
06:12:04 <CakeProphet> coke and vodka it is.
06:20:47 <CakeProphet> ...okay
06:20:52 <CakeProphet> so for future reference
06:20:55 <CakeProphet> coke, vodka, chocolate syrup
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06:38:32 <pikhq> /bin/cat is 52k. That frightens me.
06:39:24 <coppro> I think you can do it in like 50 bytes
06:40:05 <pikhq> Yeah.
06:40:27 <pikhq> Mine's 8k with dietlibc, but then, that does include a full stdio implementation.
06:40:48 <pikhq> asmutils' is 684 bytes.
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06:41:50 <pikhq> Tomorrow: bc!
06:45:58 <Deewiant> coppro: The ELF header is longer than 50 bytes :-P
06:46:16 <coppro> Deewiant: oh, well
06:46:19 <coppro> It was something really silly
06:46:22 <coppro> definitely under 1kB
06:46:31 <coppro> (it wasn't compliant though; just straight no-option cat
06:46:56 <Deewiant> Something like 250-300 bytes is probably doable
06:47:01 <pikhq> coppro: asmutils' is *GNU* compliants.
06:47:06 <pikhq> Erm.
06:47:08 <coppro> nice
06:47:08 <pikhq> Compliant.
06:50:00 <Gregor> pikhq: MICROCOSM
06:50:24 <pikhq> Gregor: ADD
06:50:27 <pikhq> :P
06:50:37 <Gregor> pikhq: SUBTRACT
07:28:15 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]]
07:28:19 <EgoBot> [[1,4,7],[1,4,8],[1,4,9],[1,5,7],[1,5,8],[1,5,9],[1,6,7],[1,6,8],[1,6,9],[2,4,7],[2,4,8],[2,4,9],[2,5,7],[2,5,8],[2,5,9],[2,6,7],[2,6,8],[2,6,9],[3,4,7],[3,4,8],[3,4,9],[3,5,7],[3,5,8],[3,5,9],[3,6,7],[3,6,8],[3,6,9]]
07:28:36 <CakeProphet> so... superset?
07:28:48 <CakeProphet> what operation am I looking at.
07:29:33 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9,10]]
07:29:35 <EgoBot> [[1,4,7],[1,4,8],[1,4,9],[1,4,10],[1,5,7],[1,5,8],[1,5,9],[1,5,10],[1,6,7],[1,6,8],[1,6,9],[1,6,10],[2,4,7],[2,4,8],[2,4,9],[2,4,10],[2,5,7],[2,5,8],[2,5,9],[2,5,10],[2,6,7],[2,6,8],[2,6,9],[2,6,10],[3,4,7],[3,4,8],[3,4,9],[3,4,10],[3,5,7],[3,5,8],[3,5,9],[3,5,10],[3,6,7],[3,6,8],[3,6,9],[3,6,10]]
07:29:41 <CakeProphet> oh my
07:30:07 <CakeProphet> so the size of each sub-list is the minimum size of the input sub-lists
07:33:28 <CakeProphet> for some reason it reminds me of powerset, but it's not the same.
07:34:16 <CakeProphet> oh, and there's one size-4 list.... so now I have no fucking clue what sequence does on [[a]]
07:34:36 <CakeProphet> other than a bunch of permutation-like lists
07:39:33 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1],[2]]
07:39:34 <EgoBot> [[1,2]]
07:39:44 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2],[3,4]]
07:39:45 <EgoBot> [[1,3],[1,4],[2,3],[2,4]]
07:40:08 <CakeProphet> ...oooooh
07:40:18 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
07:40:20 <EgoBot> [[1,4],[1,5],[1,6],[2,4],[2,5],[2,6],[3,4],[3,5],[3,6]]
07:40:28 <fizzie> Deewiant: Speaking of small executables, I have a 253-byte stub (inc. ELF headers + code) for x86-32 which does (with direct syscalls) fork+exec /bin/bzcat, feeds it a blob, reads it to rwx segment and jumps into it.
07:41:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: (I use it for compressed executables, since UPX's compression ratio isn't so awesome and its decompression stub is larger; while the "traditional" trick of making a shellscript that decompresses into /tmp/x and runs it is so ugly.)
07:43:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: (Anyhow, I'm sure you can get a "doesn't look at argv, just read+write loop" cat into the 100-150 byte range. My headers are 72 bytes, and you can stick 9 bytes of code into the padding in the middle anyway.)
07:45:46 <CakeProphet> so basically
07:46:05 <CakeProphet> sequence is non-deterministic for [[a]]
07:46:24 <coppro> uh, what?
07:46:30 <coppro> every Haskell function is deterministic
07:47:13 <CakeProphet> each sublist in the output becomes a non-deterministic value of a new non-deterministic sequence... represented determinnistically as a [[a]]
07:47:22 <CakeProphet> coppro: simulated, of course. I use non-deterministic loosely.
07:47:38 <CakeProphet> s/output/input
07:47:47 <coppro> how is this non-deterministic at all?
07:47:56 <CakeProphet> okay... here's what I'm saying
07:48:26 <CakeProphet> let's say the input to the sequencefunction is a sequence x(n)
07:48:31 <CakeProphet> and the output is y(n)
07:49:01 <CakeProphet> y(n) = [x(1), x(2), x(3), x(4) ...]
07:49:37 <CakeProphet> !haskell sequence $ [[1,2],[3,4],[5,6]]
07:49:39 <EgoBot> [[1,3,5],[1,3,6],[1,4,5],[1,4,6],[2,3,5],[2,3,6],[2,4,5],[2,4,6]]
07:50:04 <CakeProphet> should start at zero, acutally. So that's
07:50:14 <CakeProphet> [x(0), x(1), x(2)]
07:51:22 <CakeProphet> x(0) = 1 or 2; x(1) = 3 or 4; x(2) = 5 or 6
07:52:24 <CakeProphet> it's a simulation of a non-determinstic sequence that constructs every possible deterministic sequence that it represents.
07:52:35 <CakeProphet> I don't think I'm making any sense.
07:55:44 <CakeProphet> !haskell do {nd_list <- sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]; nd_list}
07:55:46 <EgoBot> [1,4,1,5,1,6,2,4,2,5,2,6,3,4,3,5,3,6]
07:55:59 <CakeProphet> that flattens it.
07:56:18 <CakeProphet> join $ sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
07:56:26 <CakeProphet> !haskell join $ sequence [[1,2,3],[4,5,6]]
07:56:33 <CakeProphet> !haskell :t join
07:56:41 <CakeProphet> ... :o
07:56:47 <CakeProphet> it broke.
07:57:04 <CakeProphet> !haskell :t join
07:57:15 <coppro> [00:52:11]<CakeProphet>I don't think I'm making any sense. <-- this
07:57:25 <CakeProphet> ha.
07:57:50 <CakeProphet> it's basically how the monadic operations of [] a represent non-determinism
07:58:09 <CakeProphet> sequence takes one representation and flips it around in a way.
07:59:47 <CakeProphet> so instead of having a list where each sub-list is a non-deterministic value
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08:00:17 <CakeProphet> you now have a list where each sub-list is a possible determinized list.
08:00:49 <CakeProphet> of the original non-deterministic sequence
08:00:58 <CakeProphet> ...
08:01:05 <CakeProphet> fucking English
08:01:22 <CakeProphet> natural language makes technical things hard to explain.
08:01:31 <Deewiant> fizzie: I was thinking of "completely ordinary" executables, not using parts of the ELF header for code. :-)
08:01:46 <fizzie> But everyone's doing that!
08:01:46 <Deewiant> fizzie: But I did misremember that the headers were around 120 bytes or so.
08:04:32 <CakeProphet> !haskell do {x <- [1..9]; return $ [x, x+1, x+2]}
08:04:33 <EgoBot> [[1,2,3],[2,3,4],[3,4,5],[4,5,6],[5,6,7],[6,7,8],[7,8,9],[8,9,10],[9,10,11]]
08:05:01 <fizzie> Deewiant: They're about that size if you have more than one segment, which you will in a "completely ordinary" executable (one read-write for data, one read-executable for code).
08:05:15 <CakeProphet> !haskell do {x <- [1..9]; [x, x+1, x+2]}
08:05:16 <EgoBot> [1,2,3,2,3,4,3,4,5,4,5,6,5,6,7,6,7,8,7,8,9,8,9,10,9,10,11]
08:05:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: (Also mine would be 80 bytes already, I just interlaced the last 8 bytes of the file header with the first 8 of the segment header.)
08:05:35 <Deewiant> Well, you probably don't need a non-code segment for cat
08:05:38 <CakeProphet> hmmmm....
08:05:44 <CakeProphet> just got an idea
08:06:02 <CakeProphet> if you newtype'd list
08:06:15 <CakeProphet> you could implement a monad for digital signal processing that makes things like delay-lines easy to do.
08:06:40 <CakeProphet> hmmm, well not newtype actually
08:07:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well:
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ nasm -Ox -o cat -f bin cat.asm ; chmod u+x cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ echo 'foo, bar, baz' | ./cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> foo, bar, baz
08:07:08 <fizzie> htkallas@pc112:/users/htkallas/tmp$ ls -l cat
08:07:08 <fizzie> -rwxrw-r-- 1 htkallas htkallas 110 2010-07-06 10:06 cat*
08:07:49 <CakeProphet> do { (dval, x) <- signalWithDelay 3 [1..]; return $ dval+x}
08:08:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: Doesn't take arguments, I take it :-)
08:08:16 <CakeProphet> psh, wtf am I saying. You don't even need to define a new type.
08:08:37 <fizzie> Deewiant: Right. Haven't tested it much either, might have bugs. Might also be a bit overly pessimistic as to whether a syscall's argument registers stay intact; I think they might, which would save some bytes.
08:08:43 <Deewiant> I was thinking POSIX-compatible
08:08:47 <CakeProphet> signalWithDelay :: [a] -> [(Maybe a,a)]
08:08:52 <CakeProphet> signalWithDelay :: Int -> [a] -> [(Maybe a,a)]
08:09:14 <Deewiant> fizzie: I don't think that's guaranteed anywhere, but I'm not sure.
08:09:43 <CakeProphet> signalWithDelay :: Int -> Int -> [a] -> [([Maybe a],a)]
08:10:04 <fizzie> Deewiant: Somebody claimed it was, and the syscall handling seemed to suggest they were, but I didn't see it exactly spelled out in the docs anywhere. The syscall number is lost, at least, since that's the return value register.
08:10:08 <CakeProphet> first int is distance back, second int is size of the delay line.
08:11:45 <fizzie> Some architectures clobber the syscall argument registers, according to some glibc bug report I found when googling for whether x86-32 does.
08:12:21 <CakeProphet> delayedSignalWithDefault :: Int -> Int -> Int -> [([a],a)]
08:12:29 <CakeProphet> to get rid of the Maybe.
08:12:55 <CakeProphet> delayedSignalWithDefault :: a -> Int -> Int -> [([a],a)]
08:12:56 <CakeProphet> actually
08:17:06 <CakeProphet> hmmm
08:17:57 <CakeProphet> do you think there would be any real harm in making tuple types a superset of all algebraic data types with a single constructor that fits the tuple?
08:18:29 <CakeProphet> data List = Cons a [a] | Empty
08:19:04 <CakeProphet> list = Cons 0 $ Cons 1 $ Cons 2 $ Cons 3
08:19:22 <CakeProphet> (x, xs) = list
08:19:44 <coppro> congratulations, you just described Haskell lists
08:19:54 <CakeProphet> well, what I'm saying
08:20:08 <CakeProphet> is there any reason to make tuples distinct from named algebraic constructors.
08:20:20 <coppro> yes
08:20:37 <CakeProphet> why couldn't tuples simply represent /any/ constructor for pattern matching?
08:20:50 <CakeProphet> any constructor that matches, that is.
08:20:58 <fizzie> Deewiant: 101 bytes if I assume the regs are saved, and it seems to work.
08:21:05 <CakeProphet> so for example
08:21:27 <Deewiant> fizzie: Of course it may work, but that doesn't mean it's ABI-guaranteed :-)
08:21:35 <CakeProphet> a value of type (a, [a]) would contain the set of [a] values constructed via (:)
08:22:06 <fizzie> Deewiant: There were some .pdf slidesets that seemed to suggest it was. :p
08:22:33 <CakeProphet> but a value of type (a, [a]) would not include values of type [a] constructed from []
08:22:40 <CakeProphet> because it does not match.
08:23:23 <CakeProphet> [a] values constructed from [] could be type ()
08:24:10 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://sprunge.us/LhDM if you want to see them codes.
08:24:36 <CakeProphet> so...
08:25:02 <CakeProphet> instead of writing functions that operate on specific named types of specific typeclasses
08:25:24 <CakeProphet> you could instead write functions that operate on any algebraic data structure constructed with a certain signature
08:25:47 <CakeProphet> *named types /or/ specific typeclasses
08:27:26 <CakeProphet> it would almost be a sort of weak typing
08:27:38 <Deewiant> fizzie: I note no error checking
08:27:48 <Deewiant> fizzie: Where's your buffer size?
08:28:11 <CakeProphet> under that typing system, (1,(2,(3,()))) would be equivalent to [1,2,3] as well as any other algebraic value constructed the same way.
08:28:39 <fizzie> Deewiant: It's the same as the buffer's address. You know, to save bytes.
08:28:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: (That's why I loaded the program to a reasonably low address.)
08:28:54 <Deewiant> >_<
08:29:07 <CakeProphet> fizzie: ha.
08:29:20 <fizzie> And there *is* error checking of sorts; if the read fails, it'll exit.
08:29:28 <fizzie> If the write fails, though, then it won't bother.
08:29:28 <CakeProphet> imagine if the address was 1 billion base 10. :)
08:29:51 <Deewiant> But with the correct error code?
08:30:13 <fizzie> Well, no, of course not. That would mean I'd have to distinguish between errors and end-of-file.
08:30:34 <Deewiant> Exactly :-)
08:30:48 <Deewiant> Your cat is but a poor approximation of a cat
08:31:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can possibly add a "sets bl" into some proper spot to get return code 0 of the program when it hits EOF, and 1 when an error occurs.
08:31:32 <fizzie> The worst part of the cat is that it won't read files specified as arguments, admittedly.
08:32:29 <Deewiant> Also, write may write less than it's given; you need to loop it until it's done
08:32:38 <fizzie> "Nah."
08:33:01 <Deewiant> I'll stick to GNU cat; it may be bloated but at least it works!
08:33:25 <CakeProphet> [] :: (), EOF :: (), () :: ()
08:34:10 <CakeProphet> [] :: [a], EOF :: ExampleStreamType a, () :: ()
08:34:47 <fizzie> Deewiant: The decompression stub I have now writes the whole compressed code into a FIFO before starting to read from bzcat; it works because Linux's pipe buffers are 64k nowadays. I used to have three processes (one child to exec bzcat, one child to loop-write bytes into its stdin, the parent to read until EOF and then run the code) but that took far too many bytes; to get it under 256 bytes I had to cut some corners.
08:35:36 <Deewiant> Hackety-hack
08:36:12 <fizzie> Another "nice" trick: I put bzcat's argv list at the very end of the program, because that way I don't need to explicitly put the terminating NULL pointer in the file, since what's after the program is zero-initialized data already.
08:37:55 <fizzie> (Lunchtime.)
08:38:08 <Deewiant> More like breakfast time
08:49:14 <CakeProphet> bah... sockets in Haskell are not very well documented
08:50:46 <coppro> http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/repealing-unnecessary-laws/repeal-the-2nd-law-of-thermodynamics-1
09:04:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: I almost never manage to do any breakfast at home, so I have to do a 10:30 lunch here.
09:05:03 <Deewiant> Breakfast is the most important meal of the day etc
09:08:37 <fizzie> Let's call what I just ate a "breakfast", then.
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11:24:38 <CakeProphet> I think I program a little better after being drunk
11:24:42 <CakeProphet> not while drunk
11:24:46 <CakeProphet> but after I have sobered up
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11:43:59 <cheater99> where are o(klopol|erian)
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14:22:00 <nooga> AnMaster: sorry for disappearing, my battery was depleted
14:24:42 <AnMaster> nooga, hm lets see
14:25:03 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> nooga, wtf is http://plfoto.com/zdjecie,inne,wkrotce-bal-sie-tutaj-rozpocznie,1549252.html ? Some sort of post-apocalypse world?
14:25:07 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> nooga, and tell your dad I think your images are awesome. And I love HDR.
14:25:11 <AnMaster> nooga, ^
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14:42:03 <nooga> not post-apocalypse but post-soviet :D
14:44:21 <cheater99> http://keygenjukebox.com
14:44:23 <cheater99> http://keygenjukebox.com
14:44:23 <cheater99> http://keygenjukebox.com
14:44:31 <cheater99> nooga: hahah
14:44:34 <cheater99> nooga: it's the same.
14:45:10 <nooga> yeah :f
14:46:32 <AnMaster> Hm wow. Any of you have a classical PC keyboard nearby. Not low profile that is. And a rubber band.
14:46:32 <AnMaster> Put the rubber band around ESC-F12, wait while it slides up the keys... Try to predict which way it flies.
14:46:49 <nooga> it was like soviets took polish manors and turned them into big farms & stuff and then left
14:47:06 <nooga> so there are some ruined places like this
14:50:01 <cheater99> AnMaster: no.
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14:50:25 <cheater99> nooga: it's not like they weren't pigstalls before the russians came
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14:51:19 <nooga> pardon?
14:52:23 <cheater99> the royals getting drunk and high all the time for the money they got from traders for selling off their influence
14:52:49 <cheater99> you can only have so many drunken parties in a nice place before it turns into a crackhouse
14:53:16 <nooga> http://cutr.pl/5ec68700f0
14:54:16 <nooga> uhm
14:55:56 <cheater99> do you truly think if the polish gave a shit about their country this stuff would like that *today*?
14:56:14 <cheater99> 25 years after overthrowing the soviet regime?
14:56:53 <AnMaster> <cheater99> AnMaster: no. <-- ?
14:57:20 <cheater99> AnMaster: i refuse to be a slave executing your rubberband schemes.
14:57:34 <AnMaster> cheater99, XD
14:58:08 <cheater99> ><D
15:03:19 <nooga> sure
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15:36:08 <ais523> wow, someone found an XSS bug in Youtube comments (now fixed)
15:36:24 <ais523> the string that broke them was <script><script> without closing either tag
15:37:21 <ais523> and 4chan spammed it all over everything
15:37:46 <ais523> probably /b/
15:39:12 <AnMaster> ais523, heh
15:39:45 <ais523> I'm pretty concerned that XSS still exists nowadays; you'd think that preventing HTML injection would be just as easy as preventing SQL injection
15:39:52 <ais523> if you want to allow HTML-alike formatting, use a whitelist
15:39:58 <AnMaster> yes
15:39:58 <ais523> OK, loads of people get this wrong, but Google?
15:40:08 <AnMaster> indeed wtf
15:40:22 <AnMaster> ais523 maybe it broke their html parser?
15:40:38 <ais523> perhaps
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15:48:32 <cpressey> a) youtube is only nominally google and b) google's schtick is casting the *illusion* of being filled with smart, competent people, not actually *having* them
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16:05:16 <Ilari_antrcomp> And don't just check. Parse and reconstruct.
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16:48:09 <nooga> wow
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18:02:15 <cheater99> hello sweeties
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18:04:35 <Nephilim> Hi
18:07:35 <augur> sweeties
18:07:36 <augur> what
18:07:46 <augur> im not your sweetie, cupcake.
18:08:17 <ais523> hi Nephilim
18:08:21 <augur> nooo
18:08:22 <cheater99> i am not your cupcake, sweetheart
18:08:25 <augur> :D
18:08:31 <augur> im not your sweetheart, sugar
18:08:31 <ais523> augur: you're being weirder than normal today...
18:08:39 <ais523> anything interesting esolanging-wise going on?
18:08:44 <augur> never!
18:08:55 <augur> tho i do have a wonderful way of understand Huet's zippers
18:08:57 <ais523> I'm wondering if you've managed to come up with the next Feather and have gone insane as a result
18:09:12 <augur> im considering a nice, pen-and-paper animation to explain it
18:09:25 <Nephilim> Hi augu
18:09:36 <augur> Hi Nephili
18:09:37 <Nephilim> Sorry augur!
18:09:42 <augur> :D
18:09:53 <augur> have i mentioned im sleep deprived
18:10:11 <Nephilim> ;)
18:10:31 <Nephilim> Why that?
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18:11:31 <augur> why not?
18:11:38 <augur> if i were anything else, you could ask me the same question!
18:11:48 <augur> so, toss a coin
18:11:49 <augur> here we are
18:11:54 <Nephilim> Hi ais523!
18:12:12 <ais523> augur: technically speaking, I'm probably sleep-deprived too
18:12:25 <ais523> but I tend to be more coherent than you under such circumstances
18:12:34 <ais523> I just get exasperated more easily
18:12:43 <ais523> Nephilim: what brings you here?
18:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523, hell0o
18:13:04 <AnMaster> hello*
18:13:31 <ais523> (I'm assuming you're new rather than a regular here, because I can only think of one regular who uses Colloquy and their whois info wouldn't look like that)
18:13:37 <ais523> AnMaster: hi
18:14:56 <Nephilim> Just trying colloquy for the first time and this room just looked like my cup of tea. Just on the train home from work to be honest.
18:15:25 <AnMaster> Nephilim you know it is about esoteric programming?
18:15:25 <ais523> heh
18:15:27 <AnMaster> not esoterica
18:15:44 <ais523> AnMaster: esoprogramming is probably more popular
18:15:48 <AnMaster> hm
18:15:51 <ais523> at least among people who are vaguely likely to use Freenode
18:15:56 <AnMaster> Nephilim your nick. It reminds me of some old game
18:15:59 <AnMaster> I can't remember which
18:16:04 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a M:tG reference
18:16:10 <AnMaster> probably something I played back on my old classic mac
18:16:13 <ais523> as far as I know, they coined the word in the first place
18:16:19 <AnMaster> ais523, M:tG?
18:16:24 <ais523> Magic: the Gathering
18:16:26 <AnMaster> oh right, Avernum
18:16:27 <AnMaster> I think
18:16:36 <Deewiant> It's from the Hebrew Bible
18:16:37 <ais523> they do sometimes borrow words from other sources, though
18:16:37 <AnMaster> some kind of cat-humanoid race in the avernum game
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18:16:41 <ais523> Deewiant: ah
18:17:03 -!- Nephilim has joined.
18:17:11 <AnMaster> mhm
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18:17:58 <ais523> train must be going through a tunnel or something
18:18:05 -!- Nephilim has joined.
18:18:08 <ais523> either that, or he or she's holding it on the bottom left corner
18:18:19 <AnMaster> XD
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18:18:47 <AnMaster> ais523, so I have about 500 MB of raw files here
18:19:07 <AnMaster> one HDR panorama
18:19:08 <ais523> AnMaster: raw as in the image unformat?
18:19:23 <AnMaster> ais523, raw as in *.MRW from camera yes
18:19:33 <AnMaster> (minolta raw format)
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18:19:54 <AnMaster> now to extract all the data from it
18:20:25 <ais523> meh, it's not often Apple give us such a perfect meme to make fun of them with, even if it's an unfair one
18:20:40 <AnMaster> hah
18:21:00 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't think I can batch convert these raw images though
18:21:03 <AnMaster> :/
18:21:19 <AnMaster> not if I want to extract the most from the over exposed sky
18:21:21 <AnMaster> bbl food
18:21:22 <ais523> AnMaster: ImageMagick (or your favourite fork of it) probably can
18:21:31 <ais523> at least, in terms of transforming them into a more standard format
18:21:37 <AnMaster> ais523, duh I need ufraw to convert it, and there is ufraw-batch
18:21:42 <AnMaster> which I would use
18:21:46 <AnMaster> it wasn't a technical reason
18:21:53 <AnMaster> it was trying to extract most from the sky
18:22:05 <AnMaster> it will need some manual exposure compensation fiddling
18:22:29 <AnMaster> bbl really
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18:29:36 <ais523> wb Nephilim
18:30:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: Did I see you otherwhere? How come? (I guess I technically should ask on that other channel, but somehow I feel more comfortable talking here.)
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18:31:45 <ais523> fizzie: this is an odd channel that way
18:33:38 <Ilari_antrcomp> Heh... 8 POV-Rays running in parallel (this is what you get for well-paralelizable problems).
18:37:53 <nooga> raytracing is extremely well-paralelizable
18:37:56 <nooga> and this is good
18:38:37 <Ilari_antrcomp> I render 8 frames of animation at a time...
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18:42:15 <nooga> if you've got 8 cores, why not
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18:43:57 <Ilari_antrcomp> Not that individual frames are heavy... But there's lots of them (tens of thoursands).
18:44:11 <fizzie> An embarrassingly parallel problem.
18:44:49 <nooga> what are you rendering?
18:44:52 <Ilari_antrcomp> I don't use POV-Ray internal animation features but feed scenes to render from Lua script.
18:46:42 <Ilari_antrcomp> The scene data is adapted from one game and motion data from one of my runs of said game. So in essence it is that run from 1st person POV.
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18:47:45 <nooga> what game?
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18:49:09 <Ilari_antrcomp> Skyroads.
18:51:26 <nooga> wow
18:51:33 <nooga> you're raytracing skyroads
18:51:35 <nooga> awesome
18:51:48 <fizzie> At least the scenes won't be overly complicated then.
18:52:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, what other channel?
18:52:34 <nooga> how did you manage to get the scene and motion data from the game?
18:52:51 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, what is skyroads?
18:52:55 <AnMaster> like, what genre
18:53:01 <Ilari_antrcomp> nooga: Dumped from game memory.
18:53:38 <fizzie> AnMaster: Arcadey thing; see http://www.bluemoon.ee/history/skyroads/
18:54:02 <nooga> wtd
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18:54:03 <nooga> wtf
18:54:28 <nooga> they used arrays for that?
18:55:03 <Ilari_antrcomp> Of course, to get the motion data, one has to read the memory once per frame.
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18:55:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: And the channel is... uh, well, it's named after a room in the CS building of our university.
18:55:35 <nooga> i'd love to see ready animation
18:56:25 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Are you putting the low-resolution Skyroads background planets-and-stars-and-such images in, too?-)
18:56:28 <Ilari_antrcomp> Estimated length of finished animation: About 13 minutes 20 seconds.
18:56:38 <Ilari_antrcomp> Nope. Not yet at least.
18:56:57 <fizzie> And what about the "starship"? That's a sprite "in reality", I guess.
18:57:04 * pikhq freaking loves Duff's Device coroutines
18:57:22 <Ilari_antrcomp> The POV is such that it isn't visible.
18:57:46 <fizzie> Ah. Well, that makes sense.
18:59:19 <nooga> bbl
18:59:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah
19:00:07 -!- Nephilim has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi).
19:00:11 <Ilari_antrcomp> And that run presents total breaking of the game (I have the corresponding data from Skyroads Xmas special as well (okay, who was the sadist who designed levels there?)).
19:00:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:00:40 <Sgeo> Ilari_antrcomp, several times, when I have mentioned my.. food issues to people, they have asked if I like pizza
19:00:45 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:01:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: It's more lifey than the channel of our department
19:02:43 <fizzie> Wow, the departmental channel must be pretty dead, then.
19:03:30 <Deewiant> It's got a single-digit amount of users and half of them aren't actually in the department (though they used to be)
19:03:36 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:03:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, on freenode?
19:04:04 <Deewiant> No, IRCnet.
19:04:13 <AnMaster> yeargh
19:04:19 <fizzie> Heh. Well, I guess at least half of the people on "that channel" aren't in the particular room, either.
19:05:59 <fizzie> (Admittedly it's not quite as quiet usually as it is now; must be all those people on their vacations.)
19:07:06 <Deewiant> The amount of lines said during the time I've been there outnumbers what's been said on the other during the past few months or so
19:08:40 * pikhq mutters
19:09:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: 732 lines said during the month of June, according to my log.
19:09:21 <pikhq> I'm not sure why, I'm not sure how, but I do believe that this sucker is being annoying as heck.
19:09:59 <pikhq> WHY IS RETURN SEGFAULTING D':
19:10:03 <Deewiant> fizzie: That's probably more than's been said on the other channel in the few years I've been there
19:10:30 <Ilari_antrcomp> Now rendering Into The Sun Road 1...
19:11:47 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Are you going to keep talking about this? Because I'm going to have to start playing it if you are. (I guess it would work all right in dosbox.)
19:13:30 <Ilari_antrcomp> It would work in DosBox. But as warning, its pretty hard (even the non-Xmas version).
19:13:47 <fizzie> Oh, I've played through all the levels before; I know what it's like.
19:13:50 <fizzie> Well, the regular one.
19:13:58 <fizzie> The Xmas Special I haven't.
19:14:20 <Ilari_antrcomp> Xmas special has levels that seem impossible.
19:14:29 <fizzie> So I've heard.
19:14:55 <Ilari_antrcomp> None of them is actually impossible...
19:15:44 -!- elliottcable has changed nick to coolSTER.
19:15:45 <fizzie> Yes, I wouldn't think they'd release something they themselves couldn't do at least once.
19:16:22 <Ilari_antrcomp> Or they used the demo feature to "do" them. There are levels that seem to require almost frame-perfect timing.
19:17:55 <Ilari_antrcomp> A fair amount of those levels have unintended routes.
19:18:54 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, can you show some frames of this animation
19:18:58 <fizzie> I do remember spending quite many attempts in some of the levels of the original game, too.
19:19:57 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:21:10 <fizzie> Road 1 of The Earth, at least.
19:21:12 <oerjan> <cheater99> where are o(klopol|erian) <-- YOU WILL NEVER KNOW
19:22:09 <Ilari_antrcomp> The Earth Road 3 was one of the hardest in original game. Now do it in under 30 seconds. :-)
19:22:23 <AnMaster> 1.1 GB image data... (*.MRW + 8-bit tiff, too much for me to be able to pull off 16-bit on my systems)
19:22:24 -!- coolSTER has changed nick to elliottcable.
19:22:30 <AnMaster> too heavy for that
19:23:43 <cpressey> pikhq: IT HATES YOU
19:24:04 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: given the subject of conversation and past context, I'm now vaguely wondering if it works on JPCRR
19:24:17 <cheater99> man, swfroads is fun
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19:25:59 <Ilari_antrcomp> ais523: Google 'skyroads speedrun'. :-)
19:26:15 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: speedrun rather than tas?
19:26:30 <ais523> ah, first result /is/ a tas
19:26:44 <Ilari_antrcomp> I have never seen non-TAS speedrun of it.
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19:28:37 <AnMaster> ais523, JPCRR?
19:28:47 <Ilari_antrcomp> AnMaster: Rerecording X86 emulator.
19:28:59 <AnMaster> re-recording?
19:29:04 <AnMaster> wtf does that mean
19:29:50 <fizzie> SWFroads seems to handle very differently from the original.
19:29:53 <ais523> AnMaster: it means that it records everything you do, and if you go back to a savestate, it edits the recording accordingly
19:30:12 <ais523> thus, at the end you get one single recording with all your loadstating edited out
19:30:23 <AnMaster> ais523, mhm
19:30:35 <AnMaster> so cheating?
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19:31:23 <AnMaster> 52 god damn images -_-
19:32:11 <Ilari_antrcomp> AnMaster: But then, everything depicted is really possible in the game.
19:32:21 <AnMaster> sure
19:32:25 <fizzie> Ilari_antrcomp: Is that first-hit youtube thing yours, by any chance?
19:32:28 <AnMaster> but inhuman to manage to pull off
19:32:52 <Ilari_antrcomp> Yes, it is.
19:33:00 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, anyway I want to see some frames from this animation
19:33:08 <AnMaster> also what does antrcomp stand for
19:33:18 <fizzie> "Another computer" would be my guess.
19:33:21 <AnMaster> ah
19:33:28 <AnMaster> ant r computer
19:34:32 <cpressey> No, it's a computer made out of ants.
19:35:05 <AnMaster> like toys r us? ants r computers?
19:35:18 <cpressey> Exactly.
19:35:31 <AnMaster> right
19:35:48 <oerjan> anterior computer.
19:35:49 <fizzie> The curious thing is that when I google for "JPCRR", the first hit is a Git repository, and the "owner" field has a name that matches to a person who was on the same class as I in high school, and the three previous grades.
19:35:57 <AnMaster> oerjan, -_-
19:36:11 <cpressey> fizzie: That's the universe doing that THAT it does, again.
19:36:35 <cpressey> I think I meant to type THING there, but what I did type is almost better.
19:36:50 <fizzie> Yes, it's the THAT.
19:36:51 <AnMaster> I was wondering about the logic of it
19:37:02 <Ilari> http://imagebin.ca/view/wTPovq.html
19:37:41 <AnMaster> Ilari, no antialiasing?
19:38:15 <Ilari_antrcomp> Yup (as this is still testing).
19:38:34 <AnMaster> Ilari_antrcomp, aww
19:43:25 -!- pikhq has joined.
19:43:32 <Ilari_antrcomp> Final renders would be with much larger resolution + AA turned on.
19:43:50 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/TENK I present: cal!
19:43:52 <pikhq> ...
19:43:53 <pikhq> Erm.
19:44:14 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/YJVa Really!
19:44:55 <Ilari_antrcomp> And if you are wondering if that pink in that image is burning surface... Yes it is.
19:46:10 * pikhq should clean a few things up there though
19:48:15 <fizzie> You could make the burning floors glow pink a bit, and the fuel-filling ones glow blue. Nothing ostentatious, just something subtly visible.
19:49:19 <Ilari_antrcomp> I'm thinking making burning floors bit lava-like, fuel-filling ones glow, slippery ones look icy, and boost and sticky to have arrows. :-)
19:51:37 <fizzie> Gah, that Asteroid Belt 3 fuel thing.
19:51:41 <Ilari_antrcomp> BTW: If one wanted to make skaizoroads, one could play with palette mapping entries (there are 71 per level) concerning burning blocks...
19:53:02 <Ilari_antrcomp> Its possible jump to that hole without slowing down (other than from banging the ship a bit).
19:54:09 <fizzie> Yes, but I ran out of fuel in that level quite many times; it's not exactly obvious it refills fuel there.
19:57:14 <Ilari_antrcomp> The only level where I have managed to run out of fuel without missing fuel pad: Druidia Road 1.
19:58:45 <ais523> do you consider skyroads a racer or a platformer?
19:58:58 <Ilari_antrcomp> ais523: Well, its bit of both.
19:59:14 <ais523> yep
19:59:19 <ais523> just finished watching your TAS
19:59:46 <cpressey> Is City Connection a racer or a platformer? :)
20:00:12 <ais523> hmm, you could arguably even call Enigma a platformer, although it's primarily a puzzle game
20:00:13 <Ilari_antrcomp> And that can be improved by over 2.5 seconds...
20:00:17 <ais523> some of the levels are rather platformish
20:02:08 <Ilari_antrcomp> One can do enigma level such that its easily possible to show from level program that it is possible to solve with solution of practical length, but still remain infeasible to solve.
20:02:50 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: well, of course
20:03:04 <ais523> but that wouldn't make for a very good puzzle
20:03:50 <Ilari_antrcomp> infeasible to solve => Practically can not be solved.
20:04:12 <Ilari_antrcomp> Note that Sokoban might not allow such levels...
20:06:23 * pikhq introduced a bug, is now upset
20:06:25 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
20:06:57 <Ilari_antrcomp> Level that is really expander graph that gets partially swapped out? :-)
20:07:12 <pikhq> Thare
20:07:43 <Ilari_antrcomp> Or level that edits the invisible parts? :-)
20:08:08 <ais523> Ilari_antrcomp: Sokoban is PSPACE-complete, and Turing-complete if generalised to infinite puzzles
20:08:53 <pikhq> http://sprunge.us/RWaI
20:08:55 <pikhq> Comments
20:08:56 <pikhq> ?
20:09:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
20:11:22 <Ilari_antrcomp> Those kind of levels are related to construct that it is possible to obustificate what triggers something in program (including obustificating what it triggers).
20:11:58 <pikhq> Apparently nobody looks at my code ever. :P
20:12:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:21:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, of course, except when it is in microcosm!
20:26:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: Hah.
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20:49:54 <coppro> ais523: How do you define Sokoban's inputs and outputs?
20:50:20 <coppro> pikhq: coroutine.h?
20:51:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:51:15 <pikhq> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/coroutine.h
20:51:49 <coppro> eek
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20:52:07 <pikhq> Just coroutines with switches.
20:52:23 <pikhq> Believe me, it's better this way.
21:09:59 * pikhq gets tempted to reimplement inflate.
21:10:07 <pikhq> If only I knew why.
21:11:15 <oerjan> inflated ego, clearly.
21:11:43 <pikhq> Clearly.
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21:42:44 <AnMaster> inflate?
21:42:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, as in decompressed for deflate?
21:47:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes.
21:50:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, why not reimplate deflate
21:50:48 <pikhq> Is hard.
21:50:50 <pikhq> That's about it.
21:51:24 <AnMaster> yes true
21:51:24 <oerjan> *reimplate deflement
21:51:41 <AnMaster> reimplement*
21:51:45 <AnMaster> obviously
21:52:22 * oerjan whacks AnMaster's joke detector to see if it improves
21:53:04 * AnMaster 's joke detector starts humming and the emits a huge amount of black smoke
21:53:22 <AnMaster> KABOM!
21:53:36 <fizzie> Re-impale deflagrations.
21:53:39 <oerjan> i say that's an improvement.
21:55:19 <oerjan> flagrant impalas re-rioting
21:56:30 <fizzie> Reconfigure fragrant imports.
21:59:00 <oerjan> conifer import grant figures
22:01:46 <fizzie> Reconnaissance implies grafted sporks.
22:04:34 <oerjan> ork spies reconnect imp graph liaisons
22:09:20 <fizzie> Leprechaun futures: investment returns guaranteed.
22:09:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:40 <micahjohnston> what is a kind of expressions that has the flexibility of a stack-based language but isn't stack-based?
22:12:17 <oerjan> leopard furs invert gargantuan crutches
22:18:21 <olsner> nonsense! as usual...
22:19:29 <fizzie> Factorial nonsense.
22:19:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, oerjan: how were you making those up?
22:21:13 <fizzie> I don't know about oerjan, but I used this brain thing.
22:24:11 <AnMaster> XD
22:26:04 <oerjan> NO BRAIN HERE
22:28:17 <olsner> fizzie: yeah right, as if
22:28:41 <oerjan> oh well, and so
22:29:17 <cpressey> 'twas ever thus
22:29:25 <fizzie> The famous "as if" rule says I don't actually have to have a brain, as long as I produce text that looks "as if" it was generated with one.
22:29:54 <oerjan> if i only had a brain
22:30:43 <fizzie> If you had half a brain, you'd be missing the other half.
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22:33:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
22:34:12 <oerjan> and if you got hold of that half, you'd be too clever by half.
22:39:13 <AnMaster> hahah
22:41:37 <fizzie> I've half a mind to go asleep.
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22:45:00 <aliseiphone> Hi.
22:45:31 <aliseiphone> I have the light on. Not visible from outside, comfier on inside. Logical...
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22:59:32 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Your cal(1)... sucks. >_>
23:00:46 <aliseiphone> Firstly, do you really, REALLY need a fake coroutine there? Secondly, for all those pages of code, you don't handle September 1752 (even old Unix did this).
23:00:58 <aliseiphone> *don't even handle
23:03:17 <oerjan> hey 1752 is an english-centered thing
23:04:13 <olsner> it would be cool if it was locale-sensitive and gave the right answer for the period of time when different countries were using old/new calendars
23:04:23 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Believe me, it gets *ugly* without the coroutine thing.
23:04:40 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:04:59 -!- nooga has joined.
23:05:05 <pikhq> For example, look at *any other implementation*.
23:05:06 <olsner> (no, not really... just complicated... but excessive attention to detail is somewhat amusing in a way)
23:05:06 <aliseiphone> pikhq: I won't believe you: I have read Plan 9's cal(1).
23:05:19 <aliseiphone> It does not use coroutines.
23:05:31 <nooga> what
23:05:42 <aliseiphone> olsner: Locale-sensitivity is /hard/.
23:05:59 <aliseiphone> If you're not getting paid it's a lot less enraging to just ignore it...
23:06:11 <pikhq> olsner: Locale-sensitivity is why libc is several megs.
23:06:15 <olsner> indeed, that would be the point - making it locale sensitive just to make it harder
23:06:29 <pikhq> The point is to not be painful.
23:06:31 <olsner> make it harder to display dates from more than 200 years ago
23:06:46 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Good point on the Julian dates thing though.
23:07:01 <pikhq> Kinda violates POSIX to not support the Julian calendar.
23:07:05 <aliseiphone> Anyway, supporting "cal sep 1752" is Unix tradition.
23:07:40 <pikhq> No requirements to support month names or abbreviations.
23:07:49 <pikhq> Nor do I have the inclination to.
23:07:54 <aliseiphone> "The British calendar act of 1751 / declared twelve days of the following year / would not exist" —Make Believe, "Political Mysticism"
23:08:27 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Can I offer the god of usability and convenience to replace yours of POSIX compliance?
23:09:05 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I'm only giving credence to POSIX when it's not unreasonable.
23:09:32 <oerjan> usa-bility is just an american plot anyhow
23:09:59 <aliseiphone> "Try 'cal sep 1752'." (or similar) —some very old Unix manpage.
23:10:13 <aliseiphone> You can't break that!
23:10:27 <pikhq> GNU already did.
23:10:28 <pikhq> :P
23:10:32 <aliseiphone> Month names and abbreviations! Three lines of code! Yay!
23:10:43 <pikhq> Seriously, GNU cal doesn't support it.
23:10:50 <pikhq> And these are the guys who made a bloated hello world.
23:10:59 <aliseiphone> Support what?
23:11:03 <aliseiphone> Month names?
23:11:09 <pikhq> Yes.
23:11:21 <aliseiphone> Well... Fuck GNU.
23:12:11 <pikhq> Also: "Try 'cal sep 1752'." isn't UNIX, it's Plan 9.
23:12:31 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: BOOM SHAKA BOOM SHAKA
23:12:40 <aliseiphone> Read Plan 9's cal source.
23:12:49 <aliseiphone> Thou shalt be HUMBLED!
23:12:51 <pikhq> Trying to find it!
23:13:04 <pikhq> Thar
23:13:07 <aliseiphone> The plan9port one will dp!
23:13:11 <aliseiphone> *do!
23:13:19 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Link me too, please?
23:13:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: http://cm.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/sys/src/cmd/cal.c
23:14:42 <pikhq> I'm... Not calling that "readable".
23:15:29 <aliseiphone> Why? The B functions?
23:15:34 <aliseiphone> They're just printf.
23:15:47 <aliseiphone> The performance hacks like the switch suck, yeah.
23:16:11 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, that one is broken too
23:16:16 <AnMaster> English specific
23:16:26 <aliseiphone> You're late to the party.
23:16:27 <pikhq> No, the means it uses for printing out a complete year. I... Don't get it.
23:16:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, in sv_SE Monday comes first in the week
23:16:45 <AnMaster> not Sunday
23:16:49 <AnMaster> so rather broken yeah
23:16:50 <aliseiphone> Already covered; go suck Swedrn's cock.
23:16:50 <cpressey> /* you are not expected to understand this */
23:16:54 <aliseiphone> *Sweden
23:17:01 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, and you go suck iphone
23:17:27 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Hellooo, using an iPhone because I'm IN A FUCKING INSTITUTION
23:17:42 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, yes and you can stop being rude towards me
23:18:11 <aliseiphone> Indeed. I'd say that you in turn could stop being idiotic, but that would be a lie.
23:18:25 <aliseiphone> pikhq: True, I thought the code was better.
23:18:38 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Guess I'll have to write my own cal(1).
23:19:19 <aliseiphone> pikhq: ah
23:19:27 <aliseiphone> It prints a year in 3 columns
23:19:32 <pikhq> Yes.
23:19:34 <pikhq> As does mine.
23:19:38 <aliseiphone> thus += 3, 72*x
23:19:56 <AnMaster> if(y > 1752)
23:19:56 <AnMaster> d += 3;
23:19:57 <AnMaster> fail
23:20:01 <AnMaster> again locale specific
23:20:15 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: SHUT
23:20:18 <aliseiphone> THE FUCK
23:20:21 <aliseiphone> UP
23:20:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: "The cal utility shall write a calendar to standard output using the Julian calendar for dates from January 1, 1 through September 2, 1752 and the Gregorian calendar for dates from September 14, 1752 through December 31, 9999 as though the Gregorian calendar had been adopted on September 14, 1752."
23:20:23 <aliseiphone> ABOUT
23:20:26 <aliseiphone> LOCALES
23:20:36 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, I don't plan to
23:20:40 <AnMaster> pikhq, so? POSIX fails too
23:20:46 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:20:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: Dude, locales are PAIN AND AGONY.
23:21:13 <pikhq> It'd take, like AliseOS to make them not painful.
23:21:31 <cpressey> If I set my locale to "The Region of Thud", do I get a Discordian calendar?
23:21:44 <pikhq> cpressey: If you add that as a locale: yes.
23:21:51 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Guess what: we don't give a flying fuck about Sweden. At least not while we're writing coreutils for our OWN USE.
23:21:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes everyone should just use the Swedish locale
23:22:09 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, well why didn't you say that it was for your own use
23:22:11 <AnMaster> sigh
23:22:31 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Little thing known as
23:22:34 <pikhq> Half the point here is to be clean and readable. Half the point is to suck less than other coreutils.
23:22:38 <aliseiphone> "Fucking obcious"
23:22:41 <aliseiphone> *obvious
23:22:50 <pikhq> And another half of the point is to be better than busybox.
23:22:55 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, you could spell check before you hit enter/send/whatever
23:22:57 <pikhq> :P
23:23:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, correctness > completeness > simplicity, IMO
23:23:36 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Here's your iPhone keyboard. Here's your week-long stay in a mental institution. ENJOY!
23:23:39 <AnMaster> speed come after all of those
23:23:53 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, so move abroad
23:23:55 <pikhq> AnMaster: It is perfectly correct to only support the C locale.
23:24:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, not complete though
23:24:22 <pikhq> Also, you want a coreutils that supports more than that? Okay, fine. Here's GNU coreutils. Notice how it MAKES YOU CLAW YOUR EYES OUT.
23:24:27 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Ok: plan a move to UK while having only a computer, two days a week.
23:24:31 <aliseiphone> What's that?
23:24:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, it doesn't
23:24:35 <aliseiphone> You can't?
23:24:43 <aliseiphone> Clearly you fuckibg fail at life.
23:24:45 <AnMaster> aliseiphone, your parents could?
23:24:50 <aliseiphone> Just go eat shit and die.
23:25:13 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: ParenT. The other rabidly supports the unit & divorced.
23:25:20 <aliseiphone> And guess what?
23:25:22 <aliseiphone> MOVING
23:25:22 <AnMaster> ouch
23:25:24 <aliseiphone> IS
23:25:25 <pikhq> AnMaster: Read Coreutils source some time.
23:25:26 <aliseiphone> REALLY
23:25:28 <aliseiphone> FUCKING
23:25:31 <aliseiphone> HARD.
23:25:33 <AnMaster> no need for caps
23:25:34 <pikhq> I'll hold the trash can while you vomit.
23:26:08 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: I'd like to see /you/ this close to the edge.
23:26:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have read coreutils cat
23:26:20 <AnMaster> yes it could need cleaning up
23:26:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, but for me who don't live in an English speaking country, supporting locales is actually something important
23:26:58 <AnMaster> you may not get that
23:27:24 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes, and you're free to use a coreutils that doesn't have simplicity as a major goal.
23:27:38 <aliseiphone> The world speaks English.
23:28:01 <aliseiphone> One day, the other languages will be extinct. Guaranteed by now.
23:28:06 <pikhq> And I do get that: you realise that I'm obsessed with supporting that correctly to the point of having a goal of making my system have the fonts for every single Unicode codepoint?
23:28:34 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:28:35 <pikhq> (it's fucking hard.)
23:28:40 <micahjohnston> aliseiphone: the world spoke latin
23:28:56 <pikhq> micahjohnston: No, just major portions of the Roman empire.
23:28:58 <aliseiphone> micahjohnston: Not the world.
23:29:03 <pikhq> And former portions.
23:29:10 <aliseiphone> And we weren't so ... Us, then.
23:29:14 <pikhq> Also, these were in times when travel could take several weeks.
23:29:23 <aliseiphone> Now, anyone can publish their own novel online.
23:29:28 <pikhq> Which makes the spread of Latin all the more impressive.
23:29:28 <aliseiphone> Communication is instant.
23:29:42 <aliseiphone> English is being written unimaginably rapidly.
23:29:54 <aliseiphone> It will evolve: but other languages are doomed.
23:31:22 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I wouldn't say English is the inevitable victor. However, so long as society doesn't completely and utterly fall apart, there will almost certainly end up being but one language in use for, oh, 99% of the world.
23:32:11 <pikhq> (minority languages can be *absurdly* tenacious if attached to something of cultural importance, like a religion.)
23:32:17 <aliseiphone> It's predicted that something like English, French, Spanish and Mandarin will be almost the only tongues left in like 400 years, isn't it?
23:32:45 <pikhq> If current trends continue, seems quite possible.
23:33:19 <aliseiphone> Mandarin is spoken by a lot of people but internationally. Out of the remaining ones, only English is used internationally in a large capacity.
23:33:23 <aliseiphone> So...
23:33:36 <aliseiphone> *but not internationally
23:34:11 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Can you pass a computed goto to a function?
23:34:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Very likely to break stuff, but yes.
23:34:37 <pikhq> A computed goto is just a void*.
23:34:57 <aliseiphone> So the function couldn't really goto it? Darn.
23:35:09 <pikhq> It could, but consider the stack frame.;
23:36:03 <micahjohnston> arrogant anglophones <_<
23:36:46 <pikhq> micahjohnston: Lingua franca bitch.
23:36:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, bitstream <whatever>?
23:37:01 <AnMaster> did't it support every codepoint
23:37:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... No.
23:37:16 <pikhq> It doesn't even support commonly used CJK.
23:37:22 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: sex with trees.
23:37:24 <aliseiphone> micahjohnston: I don't "like" it.
23:37:26 <AnMaster> not bitstream vera
23:37:34 <aliseiphone> micahjohnston: I just think it's likely.
23:37:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, I meant bitstream cyberbit or whatever it was called
23:37:37 <pikhq> Cyberbit.
23:37:41 <AnMaster> yes
23:37:43 <AnMaster> that one
23:37:48 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: HOW DO YOU KNOW MY SECRET?
23:37:49 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. Right. That supports *commonly used* CJK...
23:38:03 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: as you can see by my demostration of travel into the past. My time machine is flawless.
23:38:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, didn't it have pretty much every unicode codepoint?
23:38:05 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Gentium does a lot of languages.
23:38:10 <pikhq> Handles a mere 32,000 glyphs.
23:38:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, still more than most
23:38:21 <pikhq> aliseiphone: I WANT ALL OF THEM
23:38:35 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Let's make it, then.
23:38:45 <aliseiphone> Could learn about typography. :P
23:38:56 <pikhq> aliseiphone: CJK is the hard bit.
23:38:59 <CakeProphet> ha. a programming language whose semantics change based on font. :)
23:39:00 <pikhq> Fortunately, that's scriptable.
23:39:08 <pikhq> Yes, scriptable typesetting.
23:39:08 <aliseiphone> Make it a meta-font like computer modern; get more bang for our buck.
23:39:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, also iirc Chinese has more native speakers than English nowdays
23:39:42 <pikhq> AnMaster: There does not exist a Chinese language.
23:39:44 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: Theyre all in china.
23:39:47 <aliseiphone> Nuff said
23:39:52 <pikhq> There exists a Chinese language family.
23:39:59 <AnMaster> pikhq, right...
23:40:03 <aliseiphone> & native is irrelevant. Only fluency matters
23:40:15 <pikhq> AnMaster: Which is about as varied as the Romance language family.
23:40:20 <CakeProphet> English by far has the highest fluency
23:40:25 <CakeProphet> ...I mean look at #esoteric
23:40:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, same when written though
23:40:35 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, in tech community yes
23:40:43 <AnMaster> less so outside that and the western world
23:40:49 <CakeProphet> I actually think statistically too. Enlgish is the most common second language
23:40:57 <AnMaster> yes
23:41:01 <AnMaster> but not most common first
23:41:02 <aliseiphone> yeah even idiots like AnMaster can communicate with us and be understood maybe 1% of the time
23:41:09 <aliseiphone> we've come so far.
23:41:26 <micahjohnston> ...
23:41:28 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: All the Mandarin speakers are IN CHINA.
23:41:44 <aliseiphone> If you don't understand the significance of this...
23:41:54 <aliseiphone> I don't know what to say.
23:42:04 <pikhq> AnMaster: Only because of the bizarre fact that standard Chinese writing is written Mandarin.
23:42:18 <pikhq> Which is about on par with all Romance language speakers writing in French.
23:42:19 <CakeProphet> oh hey guys
23:42:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, and?
23:42:23 <CakeProphet> I just time traveled into the future
23:42:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, right and?
23:42:27 <CakeProphet> what's up?
23:42:42 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: nothing
23:42:43 <pikhq> Or all Germanic language speakers writing in German.
23:42:49 <pikhq> Including English.
23:42:49 <AnMaster> fun
23:42:50 <aliseiphone> Still no jetpacks
23:43:07 <pikhq> And it used to be classical Chinese until 50 years ago.
23:43:18 <pikhq> Which is about on par with all Romance language speakers writing in Latin.
23:43:20 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: oh hello. I just time traveled from the past. I went there so I could time travel into the future just a second. Dunno if you remember or not, I forgot how long ago it was.
23:43:39 <aliseiphone> CakeProphet: still no jetpacks
23:43:44 <CakeProphet> damn
23:43:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, I fail to see how this changes the fact that there are more native writers of Chinese than of English
23:43:53 <CakeProphet> but they make perfect sense!
23:44:14 <aliseiphone> AnMaster really thinks it's a numbers game. wow.
23:44:26 <pikhq> AnMaster: Except for the Mandarin speakers THEY'RE NOT EVEN NATIVE.
23:44:45 <CakeProphet> in the future
23:44:51 <CakeProphet> everyone speaks Python
23:45:00 <CakeProphet> it's your worst nightmare.
23:45:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, and they don't write in their own
23:45:04 <cpressey> Beer to Mr. CakeProphet.
23:45:17 <CakeProphet> why thank you sir
23:45:18 <AnMaster> right
23:45:21 <CakeProphet> I wish I had more vodka.
23:45:36 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes they do.
23:45:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is not how it is officially counted in statistics though as far as I know
23:45:48 <CakeProphet> cpressey: were you present when I discovered that vodka, coke, and chocolate syrup is a delicious concotion. I'm not sure if such a thing has ever been done before (probably has)
23:45:50 <AnMaster> there Chinese tends to be counted as one language
23:45:52 <pikhq> Yes, this is because of nationalism.
23:45:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, right
23:46:02 <cpressey> And we can totally trust the Chinese government to give us accurate statistics, too.
23:46:09 <CakeProphet> I enjoy esoteric mixed drinks almost as much as I enjoy esoteric programming languages.
23:46:09 <AnMaster> cpressey, :P
23:46:14 <cpressey> CakeProphet: No, I missed that.
23:46:23 <cpressey> That is kind of disgusting.
23:46:32 <CakeProphet> no it was quite good
23:46:42 <CakeProphet> it's just like vanilla coke... but with vodka, and chocolate.
23:46:45 <CakeProphet> obviously
23:46:51 <aliseiphone> Chocolate syrup? Really now.
23:46:55 <cpressey> Well, I'm sure theory and practice could be diverging, here.
23:46:56 <CakeProphet> yes.
23:47:02 <pikhq> Speakers of various Chinese languages write their own language actually *differently* from the "official" Mandarin.
23:47:05 <aliseiphone> How is it like vanilla coke
23:47:11 <aliseiphone> You never said vanilla
23:47:13 <CakeProphet> well, it's not.
23:47:15 <CakeProphet> what I mean
23:47:24 <CakeProphet> is thinking of vanilla coke will help you imagine what it might taste like.
23:47:30 <CakeProphet> but with a different flavoring.
23:47:36 <CakeProphet> ...I guess?
23:48:13 <CakeProphet> I mean it's just as reasonable of an additive to coca cola as vanilla.
23:48:14 <AnMaster> so coke with different flavour than cocke?
23:48:16 <AnMaster> coke*
23:48:18 <CakeProphet> yes.
23:48:19 <CakeProphet> ...
23:48:21 <AnMaster> I never had vanilla coke
23:48:23 <aliseiphone> Cock Coke
23:48:27 <AnMaster> so I can't compare with that
23:48:31 <CakeProphet> really?
23:48:34 <CakeProphet> where do you live?
23:48:40 <CakeProphet> is vanilla coke a US thing or something?
23:48:44 <aliseiphone> Vanilla coke is nice
23:48:46 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, Sweden, why? I don't really like carbonated drinks either
23:48:50 <aliseiphone> and I'm in uk
23:48:53 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: ah okay. so just preference then.
23:48:58 <aliseiphone> Was discontinued for a while
23:49:01 <aliseiphone> Back now the
23:49:03 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, probably
23:49:09 <aliseiphone> *Back now I think
23:49:16 <pikhq> AnMaster: So: would you like to continue asserting that Chinese is a single language?
23:49:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, I didn't assert that. I asserted that it was in statistics
23:49:38 <CakeProphet> well, I think what we're forgetting in this debate
23:49:44 <CakeProphet> is that Anglo-Saxons are superior to the Chinese
23:49:48 <CakeProphet> and thus have a superior language.
23:49:56 <aliseiphone> pikhq: Hey, the ROMANCE languages have more native speakers than AUSTRALIAN ENGLISH.
23:49:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, I do not consider myself a linguist or such
23:50:04 <aliseiphone> English LOSES.
23:50:14 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, you fail
23:50:29 <AnMaster> and if that was humour it was rather bad
23:50:30 <aliseiphone> AnMaster: ...
23:50:31 <pikhq> aliseiphone: The INDOEUROPEAN languages have more native speakers than MANDARIN.
23:50:38 <pikhq> Therefore Mandarin loses!
23:50:39 <aliseiphone> *facepalm*
23:50:51 <CakeProphet> AnMaster: There's no time for humor when you're IN THE FUTURE.
23:50:55 <CakeProphet> obviously.
23:51:00 <AnMaster> XD
23:52:18 <pikhq> AnMaster: BTW, it's *especially* retarded claiming that the Chinese languages are written the same way.
23:52:20 <aliseiphone> Anyone here — not AnMaster — played Mario 64?
23:52:34 <CakeProphet> of course.
23:52:40 <CakeProphet> I am an American
23:52:41 <pikhq> Most of them are written using unstandardised methods of encoding the native morphemes and grammer...
23:52:51 <pikhq> And Cantonese has its own completely seperate written standard.
23:52:58 <aliseiphone> Recommended? I suppose so. I actually haven't played it.
23:53:19 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: depends. How kind of games have you played in the past?
23:53:26 <aliseiphone> SMB, Sunshine, Galaxy 1&2... but never 64.
23:53:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, mhm
23:53:31 <CakeProphet> I suppose I generally recommend it. It's a good game but I don't think I would play it again now.
23:53:34 <aliseiphone> (for mario)
23:53:54 <CakeProphet> you might be bored if you've played the newer ones. Tends to happen to me with games. But it's good.
23:53:57 <aliseiphone> I play all sorts; rarely FPSes or MMOGs though.
23:54:42 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: hmmm, lemme think of an awesome game to play. Do you own a Wii or Gamecube? I definitely recommend the Metroid Prime series.
23:55:07 <pikhq> In short: only idiots think that Chinese is a language.
23:55:08 <aliseiphone> I own a disused gamecube but not a wiii. I intend to buy a Wii.
23:55:20 <aliseiphone> Or just emulate a GC.
23:55:27 <pikhq> aliseiphone: Mario 64 = <3
23:55:43 <CakeProphet> my favorite Mario game is probably 3
23:56:20 <CakeProphet> in fact I might play it right now instead of BROODING.
23:56:22 <cpressey> My favourite English is what is they use in Youtube comments!!
23:56:32 <aliseiphone> I'm a huge fan of the first Galaxy. Superb game.
23:56:42 <micahjohnston> super mario world is my favorite
23:56:52 <CakeProphet> !haskell randomRIO (0,1) --1 = SMB3 0 = re-read "The Difference Engine"
23:57:04 <CakeProphet> bah. I thought this was GHCi
23:57:08 <aliseiphone> Beat it w/ Mario and Luigi enough to unlock the bonus. Yes, including Luigi's Purple Coins.
23:57:24 <CakeProphet> !haskell randomRIO (0,1) >>= print --1 = SMB3 0 = re-read "The Difference Engine"
23:57:45 <nooga> Ilari_antrcomp: how is your raytracing going?
23:58:12 <CakeProphet> !haskell System.Random.randomRIO (0,1) >>= print
23:58:14 <EgoBot> 0
23:58:22 <aliseiphone> !sh echo '<3'
23:58:22 <EgoBot> <3
23:58:31 <CakeProphet> ...sadly enough. This is how I make many of my real-life decisions.
23:59:02 <micahjohnston> haha that's awesome
23:59:10 <micahjohnston> you don't even get out a coin :P
23:59:20 <CakeProphet> nope. Why bother?
23:59:27 <aliseiphone> I do that, then if I feel disappointed pick the other. Great way to figure out what you really want.
23:59:35 <CakeProphet> though Haskell isn't the most convenient language. I normally use Python due to rote
23:59:48 <aliseiphone> Automatic reactions = accurate self-reading.
23:59:58 <CakeProphet> aliseiphone: yeah. Usually what happens with important things. I really couldn't decide this time though.
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