< 1279238423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Of course. Clearly I and the Pope are 2 people. Since 1=2, I and the Pope are 1, thus I am the Pope." < 1279238467 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. Was this at conversation pace? I would have to ponder that one for a while. < 1279238470 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(very vaguely from memory, as usual :) )? < 1279238480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Probably. < 1279238490 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279238491 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea. i doubt he took very long, this being russell after all < 1279238495 0 :Oranjer!~HP_Admini@adsl-243-209-183.cae.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279238517 0 :aliseiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.149 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279238542 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My calculus teacher demonstrated, from x/0 = 0, that there is exactly 1 person in the world, named Ben, who is a carrot. < 1279238544 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How hard would writing a USB stack for 386BSD be, do you think? < 1279238559 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there were a few other things there, though I forgot them) < 1279238564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Annoying. < 1279238569 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Of course there is. < 1279238598 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But not hard? < 1279238608 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And i demand you look at smallX. :| < 1279238613 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I < 1279238615 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In my philosophy book there was another anecdote about Russell: he was riding a bicycle one morning and suddenly shouted "My God, the ontological argument works!" and became a Catholic afterwards. < 1279238615 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the easier driver stacks to implement. < 1279238628 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's all documented, you see. < 1279238652 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Russell was ... Not a Catholic. < 1279238673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 host-side chips in common use, and only a few peripheral drivers to write to get 99% of hardware to work. < 1279238674 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I think he was at one point. he converted back later. < 1279238698 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ontological argument almost works. < 1279238699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there is a single interface device driver. There is a single webcam driver. There is a single storage driver. And so on.) < 1279238703 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lesson there: avoid bikes. < 1279238724 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And arguments. < 1279238732 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It has also received its share of criticism from non-Christians: Bertrand Russell noted that "The argument does not, to a modern mind, seem very convincing, but it is easier to feel convinced that it must be fallacious than it is to find out precisely where the fallacy lies."[18] Conversely, during his early Hegelian phase, Russell is also known to have said: "Great God in Boots! -- the ontological argument is sound!"" < 1279238744 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i conclude he got better :D < 1279238744 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ontology. < 1279238771 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and boots < 1279238808 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's ontological arguments all the way down < 1279238824 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beer to the Oranjer one. < 1279238842 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the anecdote is true, I would say Catholicism was a poor choice in religion. I mean, he could have chosen any other theistic religion instead. < 1279238842 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279238851 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279238852 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: YAK LINUX -- "Comes pre-shaved." < 1279238864 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Ok mr. pagan. < 1279238883 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. I'm a Discordian, not a pagan. It is the Catholics who are pagans. < 1279238883 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"despite what Zeno said, I have my moments" < 1279238896 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Well you used to be a pagan. < 1279238901 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did? < 1279238905 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was perhaps lying. < 1279238907 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has sometimes concluded the reason he never gets any programming (or anything else for that matter) done is because he's allergic to yak hairs. < 1279238930 0 :carolynmckinley!~chatzilla@204-212-123-80.setardsl.aw JOIN :#esoteric < 1279238932 0 :carolynmckinley!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1279238940 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: do you read through old #esoteric logs in your free time or something? Oh, wait, I forgot that you also go by ehird. :) < 1279238944 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought avoiding yak shaving would be a good thing < 1279238947 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never get any esolangs designed because I have to write freaking example programs for them showing you can accomplish branching and looping. Uggh. < 1279238947 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You then claimed to have tried most religions, "including atheism", then went on about being asexual and how works. < 1279238957 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*how magick < 1279238961 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: ah. yes, these are my younger, more confused days. < 1279238966 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. I logread. < 1279238969 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obsessively. < 1279238970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: when you _can_ do it, i presume < 1279238975 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's fun! < 1279238979 0 :Phantom_Hoover!ccd47b50@gateway/web/freenode/ip.204.212.123.80 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279238994 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: why do you use branching and looping as examples then? do something funnier, like esolang interpreters instea < 1279238996 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Pagan does not mean "a religion that disagrees with me", regardless of what some idiots may feel. < 1279238998 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I get subdirectories from a Git repository? < 1279239012 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not when it means you give up every project as soon as you get to the minor boring parts < 1279239024 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: It's that old "But is it Turing-complete???" thing. I know, I know... < 1279239031 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Pagan" refers to most polytheistic non-Abrahamic religions. < 1279239038 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, I believe that is how it was originally used. I think it became associated with movements such as neo-paganism after-the-fact. < 1279239050 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: an interpreter for a turing-complete language would concisely prove that it is in fact turing complete < 1279239068 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: Yes, guess what I need to be able to do to write one? Branch and loop :/ < 1279239068 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If paganism is religions I disagree with, then Christianity is paganism. < 1279239071 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AWESOME < 1279239073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, folk religions practiced in Europe before & during the introduction of Christianity to Europe. < 1279239080 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Or DO you? < 1279239092 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Well, in my current language anyway, yes. < 1279239094 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah, okay. Then yes, you are correct. < 1279239110 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wasn't "pagan" originally used by non-pagans? < 1279239113 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: oerjan is good at figuring out ways to structure such things >:) < 1279239117 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1279239117 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, you don't need to make *examples* of branching and looping, at most you'll need to *use* branching and looping < 1279239137 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It comes from Latin "paganus", meaning "country dweller". < 1279239141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yes. < 1279239143 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(branches and loops) < 1279239148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait actually. *No*. < 1279239155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was originally used by the fucking Romans. < 1279239160 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I thought. < 1279239198 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the romans liked to fuck out in the country < 1279239217 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in any case, I wasn't using the word literally. I was actually using the "barbaric religion" connotation that it has. You know, for "humor" and all. < 1279239223 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what did the sexually inactive romans call the pagans? < 1279239224 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I thought nothing, sir. < 1279239255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: No such thing. < 1279239259 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: yes, you are the pure and innocent youngster of the channel. carry on. < 1279239263 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Dinner". < 1279239268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, the Catholics are barbaric. < 1279239286 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Thanks for not carrying on the Hamlet innuendo, nitwit. :( < 1279239293 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1279239325 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: ah. next time you want to get people to join in shakespeare quotes, i suggest you try a native english speaker. < 1279239347 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. no. Most native English speakers know nothing about Hamlet. < 1279239349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No, that's worse. < 1279239355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O KAY < 1279239373 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Specifically I was referencing the interpretation of country as cuntry. < 1279239396 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have found that many native speakers have low competence in the written language. < 1279239419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, "a religion that disagrees with me" -- that's "Heathen". < 1279239419 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, although you claim that C# is mind poisoning, is it safe to say that's it's one of the less mind-poisoning popular-for-business languages? < 1279239420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: i might have realized that if i had realized shakespeare was actually involved < 1279239465 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: "Nothing", FWIW, was slang for vagina. < 1279239465 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, continuing our "false implies everything" discussion. The only thing I can logically imply from the statement "false" is "not true", and derivatives such as "not not not true" and "not not false". Is that about the extent of what "false" can imply? < 1279239467 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: um i'm pretty sure "heathen" must be a calque on "pagan"... < 1279239468 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, heathen, heath, country dweller, same thing linguistically, probably. < 1279239469 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1279239470 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: < 1279239475 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: (Following "lie in lap" for "sex", then "I mean, my head in your lap" for "sex"; followed by "nothing" for "vagina".) < 1279239500 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Stop giving a shit about business. < 1279239515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No, C. < 1279239519 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I would say C# is not mind-poisoning at all. < 1279239524 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming jobs with popular languages SUCK. Full stop. < 1279239534 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to write something in C# once. < 1279239540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is used for business. By "business" I mean "actually getting shit *done*", not merely hacking together a piece of shit. < 1279239564 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind numbing tedious pointless —boss changes requirements— at home now, never want to see a computer again < 1279239567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the hacking together pieces of shit jobs have moved on to trendier languages.) < 1279239570 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: You know, I would actually generalize that statement and say that no abstract concept can poison your mind. Only certain molecules upon ingestion... < 1279239570 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Repeat. Endlessly. < 1279239572 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I see the confusion here. "Landing a job" often has nothing to do with "actually getting shit done". < 1279239608 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I would be on the other side of that argument. < 1279239618 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you meant, poison your *brain*, then sure. < 1279239620 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Hurf durf literal interpretation < 1279239628 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# is only as bad as Java < 1279239631 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But your mind... yeah. < 1279239654 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: ah. Perhaps. But I don't feel like getting into dualism at the moment. :P Should be saving all that thought for the stuff I have to write about dualism in my philosophy class that I've been horridly procrastinating. < 1279239680 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yeah. I don't think C# or Java will poison your mind. Not like PHP will, at any rate. < 1279239681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: in boolean logic the fact that false implies everything follows from the definition of "A implies B" as "not A, or B" < 1279239703 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: If you like. But I'm not really a dualist. I just make certain distinctions. < 1279239730 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's (not A) or B correct? The command confused me. < 1279239731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in intuitionistic logic it is also true, but from different principles, in fact (false -> anything) may be an axiom there < 1279239735 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/command/comma < 1279239735 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: yes < 1279239802 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm.... < 1279239803 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1279239819 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1279239828 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so since the assumption if false, nothing is actually proven, right? And that's why you can imply anything? < 1279239832 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/if/is/ < 1279239847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less yeah < 1279239865 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1279239873 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279239875 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 1=2 implies I am the Pope was a good example of that. < 1279239933 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm... < 1279239939 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The book arrived today < 1279239940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION treats CakeProphet Right Good Forever < 1279239950 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...wat? < 1279239967 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: It's on your certificate. < 1279240023 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which certificate are you referring to? < 1279240032 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your pope certificate < 1279240050 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: For further information, consult your pineal gland. < 1279240055 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. yes it is actually. < 1279240075 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I am never without consultation from it. < 1279240089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well technically it says you have to be speaking from your pope chair < 1279240102 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no. not it does not. < 1279240106 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*no < 1279240125 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-13-176.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1279240130 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes it does. < 1279240158 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it so does < 1279240170 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My pope chair is whichever chair I happen to be sitting in. Or, in the case that I am not sitting, it is the non-existent chair that I am speaking from. < 1279240202 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are a renegade pope < 1279240209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Ex_cathedra < 1279240212 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usurp! usurp! usurp! < 1279240228 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: usurp? Why? You're a pope too! < 1279240229 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: And your pope hat? < 1279240244 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, there's not all that much renegade-y about most Discordian popes these days. < 1279240250 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no pope hats. I forbade them. < 1279240282 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discordianism is so boring. < 1279240287 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i put on my pope rope and hat < 1279240294 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*robe < 1279240296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dammit < 1279240307 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SubGenius is funner. Less "popular". < 1279240313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Didn't used to be, but yes. It went thud. < 1279240321 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More witty. < 1279240350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they pay their taxes. < 1279240355 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Less intellectual. Not always a bad thing. < 1279240380 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discordianism is only intellectual if you count numerology. < 1279240394 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: A good Discordian pope should not follow any customs. The reason there are no good Discordian popes is that Discordianism encourages you to commit blasphemous acts. Going off alone and partaking joyously of a hotdog on a friday is an example of this encouragement. < 1279240398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: I refer to Discordians who think it gives them some kind of "insight". < 1279240412 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: so breaking the rules is a custom... < 1279240420 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: He just quoted scripture at you. < 1279240425 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Please burn hi < 1279240428 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes yes I am aware of the invisible taxicabs. < 1279240429 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*him. < 1279240455 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All Cretans are liars, but snappy dressers. < 1279240469 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Is this... Some sort of code? < 1279240491 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes Alise, I hab a code. < 1279240495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah choo. < 1279240502 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all communication is code. you see... < 1279240556 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Christ on flotilla; forecast firey fornication. Tantalisingly, tarantula in tepid water taps... < 1279240572 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: And no, I don't derive any insight at all from practicing Discordianism. It's just another blinding dogma. < 1279240580 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye everybody. See you tomorrow. < 1279240585 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodbye. < 1279240587 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waves bye < 1279240597 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1279240602 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1279240645 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I chew. < 1279240648 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dab code. < 1279240651 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279240670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I'm a lapsed Discordian myself. < 1279240679 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :me too. :) < 1279240715 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main problem with Discordianism is that it is very very difficult to explain to someone. < 1279240762 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easiesy reply is generally "It's a parody religion", but that's not quite comprehensive. < 1279240811 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279240817 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279240840 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never seen a point in explaining it. < 1279240845 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if I had to explain it to someone quickly I would say it's the intellectual pursuit of paradox. < 1279241026 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gotta go. I have a hammer to build. Or was it an anvil? < 1279241028 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1279241082 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as you nail it down. < 1279241178 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tool-building is an interesting thought. < 1279241265 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not. < 1279241812 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1279242533 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1279243159 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279243193 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone else notice that Raymond from Everyone Loves Raymond looks just like Ellen DeGeneres? < 1279243210 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1279243216 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1279243224 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they totally do. < 1279243232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the fact i don't watch tv _might_ have something to do with it.) < 1279243309 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like they're lesbian twins. < 1279243555 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ray Romano? < 1279243643 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1279243654 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when he's not flashing his teeth < 1279243758 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1279243979 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279244020 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-13-176.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1279244168 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1279245248 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279245800 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279245826 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1279245895 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h165.12.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279246202 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279246217 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279246732 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279246868 0 :Gregor-L!~Gregor@75-151-73-57-Spokane.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279246919 0 :benuphoenix!~benuphoen@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279247517 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279247575 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know some things about makefiles? So that I can add in a third program to Enhanced CWEB, after Tangle and Weave. That it should be able to be used in place of makefiles. If you know some things you can suggest it < 1279248089 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279248090 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1279248180 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h158.54.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279248368 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops < 1279248386 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought clog's notice was some weird error that Freenode or XChat was giving me < 1279248439 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Why did you think that? < 1279248462 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I processed "ERRMSG unknown CTCP" sooner than I processed what was saying it < 1279248515 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you know, the clog log files suppress everything with CTRL+A if it is not ACTION < 1279248527 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Only if that is the first character) < 1279248605 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :☺Test < 1279248625 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shall I assume you meant CTCPs? < 1279248636 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or that ^A is in fact a fundamental part of CTCPs? < 1279248641 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes but CTCPs all start with CTRL+A < 1279248655 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the character I pasted in fact CTRL+A? < 1279248662 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one you wrote is a unicode text, using the CP437 representation of CTRL+A converted to unicode < 1279248683 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one before "Test" < 1279248688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gibbers < 1279248807 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have any suggestions/comments having to do with the makefile stuff? < 1279248822 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So far I did put meta-macros, but not stuff for makefile stuff) < 1279248902 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um.. don't use Asylum? < 1279248912 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[which is a dead project anyway, so moot suggestion[ < 1279248913 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] < 1279248914 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :] < 1279248926 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asylum? I wasn't planning on it. < 1279248935 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279248937 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am planning on making my own. < 1279248946 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forums.thedailywtf.com/forums/t/4361.aspx < 1279248946 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And adding it as a third program to Enhanced CWEB. < 1279248963 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would like to know what makefiles features you suggest and stuff like that. < 1279248992 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know nothing about makefiles < 1279249000 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1279249148 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of my ideas is having a file in /etc/ and one in your home directory, one named in an environment variable, and then those will be read for the settings, and then the @r directives can tell it additional make rules. < 1279249191 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And all the other stuff can still be used together with it, such as @i to include and @m and @- for meta-macros, and so on) < 1279249241 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1279249264 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This way I can make it improved instead of using the "make" command with makefiles, it can be a improved way instead. < 1279249507 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279249512 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279249566 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun. I can't figure out how to make unbound-host accept trust anchor for '.', but can make unbound itself accept the trust anchors (I get AD bit back for e.g. www.nic.cz). < 1279249721 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279249727 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279251050 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279251093 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-19-124.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1279251145 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279251218 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-23-87.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1279251467 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279251618 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279251618 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279251656 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279251891 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1279252231 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279252428 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h216.9.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279252738 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279252819 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h202.16.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279253065 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Old makefiles you might need to use a configure script, or autoconf, or manually edit the settings in the makefile, and only one makefile per directory, my way is different so that you can have common files and separate files, and so on. < 1279253554 0 :AndChat-!~AndChat@166.196.205.19 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279253610 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps the third program can be called CSPIDER maybe (completely unrelated to any program that might be called SPIDER you might have for various uses, and isn't used in Pascal WEB for the same purpose either) (you can suggest a different name if you want), you can type in "cspider this_is_not_a_pipe" (if the program is called "this_is_not_a_pipe.w") and then based on @r commands in the file (and in include files and meta-macros) can tell it wh < 1279253659 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then you can put parameters +C to tangle and compile only (no weave), +T to tangle only (no compile or weave), +W for weave only (no tangle), +F to tell it to fake everything without actually calling any other programs, and so on < 1279253677 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, it does have to be a plus sign instead of minus signs, because this is how CWEB works) < 1279253701 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1279253735 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is your opinion of these last three lines (not this one) what I wrote? < 1279253785 0 :AndChat-!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My opinion is that I want to unscrewup my computer < 1279253845 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AndChat-: OK that is good that you might want to do so but it is not what I wrote. < 1279253857 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is wrong with your computer anyways? < 1279254010 0 :Oranjer!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1279254126 0 :AndChat-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1279254180 0 :SgeoN1!~AndChat@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279254249 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I asked four questions < 1279254627 0 :jillsmitt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279254970 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h188.2.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279254972 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279255325 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h238.20.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279255327 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1279255333 0 :jillsmitt!~quassel@95.58.181.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279255366 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1279255398 0 :jillsmitt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279255429 0 :jillsmitt!~quassel@95.58.181.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279256079 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, wasn't paying attemtion < 1279256079 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try to boot normally, and it freezes with a black screen and mouse cursor < 1279256079 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Safe mode, and it bsods < 1279257140 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279257236 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279257717 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279257748 0 :p_q!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279257912 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279258298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random thought: as we all know, machine translation sucks. < 1279258307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what about machine *gloss generation*? < 1279258353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Converting, say, 今日はお元気ですか。 into "Today (sub) well-feeling (copula) (question)." < 1279258388 0 :jcp_xc2!~amboyd@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279258761 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1279259327 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279259843 0 :SailorReality!~IceChat7@74.198.148.18 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279259862 0 :SailorReality!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1279260899 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1279261020 0 :Slereah!~jews@ANantes-259-1-35-96.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1279261866 0 :SgeoN1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1279263665 0 :choochter!~choochter@host213-1-51-174.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279263916 0 :choochter!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1279264158 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279264161 0 :EgoBot!~EgoBot@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279264161 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279264389 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why is that "gloss generation"? < 1279264413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-L: Because it's not translating anything, but just providing hints at what each individual word means. < 1279264446 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that. < 1279264452 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I don't understand is why that's "gloss generation" < 1279264483 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1279264485 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's a gloss, and I am discussing the idea of machine generation of this. < 1279264514 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gloss (n): # an explanation or definition of an obscure word in a text < 1279264521 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had literally never seen that use of that word before. < 1279264523 0 :Gregor-L!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gregor < 1279264531 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same root as Glossary? < 1279264535 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279264603 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also used to explain more than just "obscure" words when the gloss is in a different language than the word being glossed. < 1279264624 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure sure. < 1279264630 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, the example gloss I gave even glossed the particle は, which is about on par with glossing "the". ;) < 1279264639 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I don't know wtf it means, it's obscure to me. < 1279264657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair enough. < 1279264718 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So yeah, the rest of Op. 13 Mov 2. < 1279264722 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's either awesome or I'm delusional. < 1279264749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever thought about the trivial way of making a language where all programs will have to output palindromes? < 1279264778 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The only valid input is the empty string. The "interpreter" outputs a random palindrome. < 1279264786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, ah. Not that trivial < 1279264789 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279264791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :select a suitable reversible language. Make exit condition be reversing so it hits the first character < 1279264818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus the same output will be written twice, in different directions < 1279264869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, think that would work? < 1279267199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1279267200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1279269208 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1279269772 0 :swilde!~wilde@aktaia.intevation.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1279271740 0 :choochter!~choochter@host213-1-51-174.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279274191 0 :jcp_xc2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1279274204 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-12-159.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279275740 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279275854 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1279276609 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1279279540 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279279598 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1279279784 0 :Wamanuz4!~wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279282513 0 :jillsmitt_!~quassel@95.58.164.123 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279282558 0 :jillsmitt!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1279282570 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.80.251 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279282571 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279282669 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279282768 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279283869 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279283967 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279285069 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279285165 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279285826 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1279286269 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279286365 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279286558 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@78.104.81.94 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279286672 0 :choochter!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: lang may yer lum reek.. < 1279286948 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION laughs at the greek inscription in today's IWC < 1279287469 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279287568 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279287755 0 :Wamanuz5!~wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279287913 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279288541 0 :jillsmitt_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279288669 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279288765 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279288770 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.buzzfeed.com/alexandr/george-costanza-the-original-hipster-1cms < 1279289869 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279289967 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279290457 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279291069 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279291136 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1279291229 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h104.33.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279291244 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I AM THE __QUEEN_OF_FRANCE__! < 1279291325 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lambdabot> bf . Evaluate a brainf*ck expression < 1279291343 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha. What's a brainfuck "expression"? < 1279291638 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.76.250 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279291693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fleh. < 1279291822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what's nice? A 118 ppi screen. < 1279291830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know what's not nice? Everything else! < 1279291977 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know how I was saying I used Python for the easy gtk? < 1279291989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://bkhome.org/genie/index.html Grep "/* GTK+". Looks like I've found something better. < 1279292011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It compiles natively! It has proper lambda! It supports GTK signals natively! < 1279292027 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Its syntax is like Python's but better! < 1279292041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also statically typed! < 1279292747 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So does Lucid Puppy 5.0 use Kdrive? < 1279292880 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: rofl. "It has proper lambda!" isn't that a function of the language and not a GUI toolkit? Or am I misinterpreting what you mean by lambda? < 1279292903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yeah, turns out Genie is a language. Who'da thunk it? < 1279292927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like it says it on the page or anything. < 1279292927 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. :P < 1279292929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279292959 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am too apathetic to click links. It requires a right-click, then a left-click, and then much waiting. Simply too much work in this modern world. < 1279292971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see; you have X-Chat set to "retarded" mode. < 1279292986 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no. I use irssi. I'm not sure why, but it works. < 1279292999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have my hatred of touchpads set to maximum. Grr.... < 1279293001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Grr... < 1279293017 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, fuck 'em. < 1279293034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I can't really get out my mouse; there's no convenient surface to use it on and I don't feel like moving. < 1279293050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And really, I have little to complain about; this laptop is awesome. < 1279293060 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If touchpads transmitted my thoughts to computer interfaces... then my opinion would change entirely. < 1279293074 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you own a napkin? < 1279293098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lighter than I thought possible, long-lasting battery life, acceptable keyboard -- very thin but the keys are big and mostly in sane places, screen is wonderfully high-dpi, works in the daylight and the glossiness is somehow completely covered by the images on the screen, and it's very bright... < 1279293105 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used a napkin as a mousepad for several months. I was in college so I can defend such an action. < 1279293109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't tell the dual-core CPU is only 1.3 GHz or so... < 1279293121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 GiB of RAM... < 1279293140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the hard disk appears to be invincible and silent. < 1279293145 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my celeron D is 3.3 ghz. :) This was back before cores existed. < 1279293168 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't think it's an SSD, because it was too cheap for that, which leads on to my final thing I like about it: It was so cheap for all of this!) < 1279293175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, not netbook cheap, but... < 1279293186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing is as good, or better than, a ThinkPad, at half the price. < 1279293189 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck yeah. < 1279293189 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what model is it? < 1279293200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: A 13.3" Toshiba Satellite; T150 or something. < 1279293220 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm considering overclocking my celeron, as I've read they can generally clock much faster but for some reason they're set to a lower speed upon manufacture. < 1279293229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and it's silent, this thing. < 1279293232 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously. The fan /never/ goes on. < 1279293237 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when it does, it's inaudible. < 1279293254 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't find a bios that allows me to set clock rate for my PC, and I don't really think I can do it manually. < 1279293256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I always thought a 1.3 GHz ultra-low voltage processor would be too slow ... but this thing is faster than my other machines. < 1279293262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously. It just runs smoothly. < 1279293278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CPUs are so good these days that GHz hardly matters, and 4 GiB of RAM does a lot of good. < 1279293286 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Overclocking laptops is basically a bad idea. < 1279293290 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desktop here. < 1279293294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their cooling systems are weak. < 1279293301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Celeron? On a desktop? < 1279293305 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yes. < 1279293307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_O < 1279293310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Celeron is a laptop processor. < 1279293316 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an older Dell. I don't remember which year, and no. < 1279293317 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279293324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's the "budget" line. < 1279293329 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1279293330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, whatever. < 1279293341 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was budget when it was new. Now it's a probably over half a decade old. < 1279293352 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This thing is a "Pentium", which means "one specific model of Core 2 Duo ultra-low voltage". < 1279293373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, a "Pentium Dual-Core", which if taken to mean the original Pentium would produce the most horrifically hilarious processor ever. < 1279293381 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :had 256 MBs of RAM. So it was basically designed to run programs on your hard drive. I have since added a gig of RAM and it did wonders to responsiveness. < 1279293399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 GiB of RAM here, which I already mentioned but damn it's nice. < 1279293407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All of this for 475 or so. < 1279293417 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for when Chrome freaks out and ends up creating huge amounts of swap after running for days, memory is generally no longer a problem. CPU is the limiting factor. < 1279293431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is $730, but with exchange rates these days, who knows what it was when I bought it. < 1279293481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, tl;dr: if this thing had a proper mouse, and a way to detach the computer from the monitor so I could use it on a desk in a more ergonomic position, I'd probably chuck away my other machines. < 1279293496 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might try firefox again now that the new version is out. Chromes multi-process design makes absolutely no sense to me. It's better suited to lightweight threads than OS processes. < 1279293506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess 13.3" could get a little cramped every now and then, but it's 1336x768, so it's high DPI and I have room to move windows about (when I can stomach touching the trackpad). < 1279293528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so high DPI, in fact, that even freetype's shitty subpixel rendering just looks smooth and pretty on it. < 1279293542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes indeed, the screen makes Linux have good font rendering: I think it might use gnomes. < 1279293570 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never really noticed poor font rendering on my machine, but maybe I just don't care enough to notice. < 1279293580 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really a typography enthusiast. < 1279293599 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't give half a shit until I bought a Mac in ... December 2006. < 1279293606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My eyes were suddenly happy and I liked reading shit. < 1279293612 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf mac. < 1279293613 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so expensive. < 1279293614 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHY < 1279293625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yeah... < 1279293630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was ~1,000 at the time. < 1279293649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I think just under; high 900s. This was way before the recession so god knows what that is in dollars. < 1279293654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There was a sale on.) < 1279293664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, while it was pricey, it served me for many years. < 1279293675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2006 to 2010, or thereabouts. < 1279293684 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having the Apple logo on the case must cost $1000 or something... that's the only reason I can think for the expense. < 1279293688 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it aged a bit towards the end, but 4 years of service is pretty damn good. < 1279293704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Actually... I hate Apple now, but I have to defend their prices. < 1279293713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macs aren't reliable because of the OS, that's bullshit, OS X isn't that stable. < 1279293722 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macs are reliable because /the hardware is damn good/. < 1279293742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, underneath that carved aluminium -- which, btw, is pretty expensive itself -- are some of the best computer components money can buy. < 1279293745 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose, but I do believe there's quite a bit of branding involved. < 1279293753 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus the new iMacs, even the low-end ones, have a /IPS/ screen. < 1279293764 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allow me to translate: "Expensive-ass professional photographer's screen". < 1279293774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excessive? Maybe. But let's put it this way. < 1279293785 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lowest end iMac is cheaper than the cheapest IPS display. And it comes with a free computer. < 1279293795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Of course. Apple are a boutique company. < 1279293809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think they'd have a hard time selling it cheaper, even if you ignore OS development costs. < 1279293861 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I was young I was wondering why someone didn't just sell computers for a pound, then so many people would buy them that they would get even richer than the current companies. I don't think I quite understood how profit worked at that point. < 1279293862 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking either Toshiba or Dell for a new laptop. < 1279293877 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Can I humbly recommend Toshiba, assuming their brand new models are as good as this one? < 1279293888 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. I've heard good things. < 1279293891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dell are alright, but... Toshiba are just higher-quality, and no more expensive. < 1279293919 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering Dell because they can be ordered with Ubuntu, which I thought would reduce cost. But I don't believe it's any cheaper than getting Vista. < 1279293963 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279293970 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's roughly the same price. < 1279293972 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no, it was totally a hammer. < 1279293976 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have a free ISO image of Windows 7 via university... so I'm not really concerned at all with which operating systems come on the computer, as long as it doesn't affect price. < 1279293981 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting a "no OS" version, i.e. FreeDOS, is the only one that tends to be cheaper. < 1279293991 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they'd probably put Dell shit on the Ubuntu installation anyway. < 1279294008 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? I didn't know they sold "no OS" versions of things. I'm a complete novice at computer buying. < 1279294010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(They ship FreeDOS because /in the US, it is illegal to sell a computer without an operating system installed/.) < 1279294013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I am not joking.) < 1279294020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Only on dell.com, I guess. But honestly, I'd just recommend Toshiba. < 1279294021 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...really? wtf < 1279294047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu, why can't you burn an ISO to a USB stick? You are a failure. < 1279294056 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose a computer with no OS is technically a weapon. It has no other function than to be bashed upon someone's head. < 1279294070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or to, you know, put an install disk in. :-) < 1279294100 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ubuntu can burn an install iso to stick. < 1279294121 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :System -> Adminstration -> startup disk creator < 1279294149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if I'm not trying to burn Ubuntu? < 1279294156 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, haven't tried. < 1279294158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it can. < 1279294160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome. < 1279294160 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you select iso < 1279294161 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1279294163 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume so. < 1279294189 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't imagine why it wouldn't work with any other iso. :P Unless they compare checksums, but that sounds like something Windows would do. < 1279294191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New question: Why is that not supported in Brasero, the burning application? < 1279294202 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, dunno about that. < 1279294202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: They might rejiggle syslinux -> isolinux. < 1279294212 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In an Ubuntu-specific way. < 1279294220 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :......this nomenclature is completely new to me. < 1279294221 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*isolinux -> syslinux. < 1279294229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or they might /not/, say, if Ubuntu no longer uses isolinux; that would break Puppy, which does. < 1279294234 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brasero sucks. < 1279294241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ISOLINUX is the from-CD version of the SYSLINUX bootloader. < 1279294255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ISOLINUX will only work on a CD, so you have to rename the stuff to SYSLINUX and run SYSLINUX on it. < 1279294260 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. And what does one do when "rejiggling" :P < 1279294278 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the renaming? < 1279294289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rename isolinux directory to syslinux, rename the configuration file the same way. Run syslinux on the USB stick. < 1279294299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, I'm not entirely sure you have to do that. < 1279294299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever. < 1279294308 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...why on earth would they use different directory names? < 1279294314 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to make things that much more complicated? < 1279294315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God knows. < 1279294322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hail Eris! < 1279294335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems that the Startup Disk Creator rejects non-Ubuntu ISOs. < 1279294336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great. < 1279294345 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hey, we just agreed that Discordianism is boring. :P < 1279294348 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a better disk burner exists. < 1279294364 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: if by "we" you mean your multiple personalities, then yes. < 1279294370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, me and cpressey. < 1279294372 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yesterday. < 1279294385 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well < 1279294389 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yesterday was last thursday < 1279294389 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1279294395 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically Discordianism was just created. < 1279294399 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I cannot honour that agreement. < 1279294401 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can't be /that/ boring. < 1279294403 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not yet. < 1279294426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Also, don't you think making jokes about my mental health when I'm stuck in an institution is maybe just a liittle distasteful? < 1279294441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not right now, of course, but on weekdays.) < 1279294488 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: not if you're confident in your mental health. But I see I've offended you. Wasn't intentional, and I didn't mean anything by it. I would have said the same thing to anyone else in that context. < 1279294501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not offended. < 1279294510 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just pointing out the possible, you know, awkwardness. < 1279294536 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, are we not all completely mad in this channel? Verily, it is a joyful madness. < 1279294537 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay. well yeah, I guess I thought about it. But I figured it wouldn't matter. I am a crass individual, but only online. < 1279294550 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lemme try this. < 1279294552 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB. < 1279294561 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279294583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a whole bunch of gnarly Javascript to write today! < 1279294586 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man Alise is so crazy, I hope he doesn't logs. olololol < 1279294597 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: "gnarly" is a fitting word, then. < 1279294608 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION loves that word "gnarly" < 1279294620 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enjoy debugging. < 1279294624 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over and over and over < 1279294634 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ayup. < 1279294659 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jQuery will not save it. It will only soften the blow. < 1279294664 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/it/me/ < 1279294689 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will get two kinds of errors: a) null object has no attribute "blah" b) unexpected object has no attribute "blah" < 1279294705 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose they're the same error, actually. < 1279294792 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.76.250 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279294795 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ping. < 1279294817 0 :aschueler!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279294821 0 :aschueler!~alec@host86-131-213-11.range86-131.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279294826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Duh, I can just use unetbootin. < 1279294828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so stupid. < 1279294866 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is a genius, obviously. < 1279294910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I just realised that smallX /also has its own Xlib/! < 1279294915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., holy shit it really is tiny! < 1279294917 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1279294917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ie., <3! < 1279294922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i.e., < 1279294946 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good. for a moment I considered that you might actually heart internet explorer. :) < 1279294949 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279294960 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course I don't! *shifty eyes* < 1279294962 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BRB. < 1279294965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279295128 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they have a Wine for Windows now. < 1279295141 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should run it in Wine and see how well it runs Windows programs. < 1279295188 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps I'll run Wine for Windows in Window for Windows on Wine, to open notepad. that would be a good test. < 1279295269 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I get excited by these things. < 1279295382 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a Matryoshka doll. One day. < 1279295403 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will hide my drugs in it. < 1279295435 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: did you get a good explanation for how getChar worked in haskell? < 1279295458 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, how 'getChar >>= putChar' is referentially transparent? < 1279295461 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didnt follow that discussion, so < 1279295461 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. I mean, I understood in the first place. I was simply pondering the meaning of referential transparency. < 1279295464 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes. < 1279295501 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its all about what you mean by referentially transparent, yeah. < 1279295528 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, to my mind, it feels like a conceptual hack. It is true to the rule of referential transparency, but only because actions are abstract values. < 1279295555 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in some sense, 'getChar' isn't referentially transparent, if you include the execution part as part of that whole thing, but if you take it to be just some instance of the IO monad that is an instruction to get a character, then its perfectly transparent < 1279295599 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a given operation will always return the same abstract "action", even though that action can be a container for wilder different values. < 1279295612 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1279295614 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wildly < 1279295650 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the value of getChar isnt all there is. theres the whole main-isnt-just-evaluated thing < 1279295690 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I suppose, everything /referenced/ is the same value for the same operation. Thus, referential transparency. < 1279295764 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think theres another way to view it tho, which would be that for any given computer, you can pretend getChar has a hidden parameter, the time it's being evaluated at, and so, if you could magically access this parameter and change it, you could "re-read" form the past, always getting the same value < 1279295790 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....that's probably a bit too philosophical for what referential transparency actually means. :P < 1279295803 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THE ENTIRE WORLD STATE. < 1279295808 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IS A PARAMETER < 1279295813 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1279295821 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WorldState monad < 1279295827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Universe monad < 1279295844 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to play around with Elephants idea of past reference via temporal logic < 1279295845 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas alise is the universe nomad < 1279295850 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know the specifics of the semantic model. < 1279295851 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :love you alise <# < 1279295878 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh. i think you can just think of the denotational semantics as ignoring side effects of the program < 1279295924 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, the good thing about like.. "getChar >>= putChar" is that the denotation is not at all related to the denotation of putChar, really < 1279295926 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1279295935 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you could construct temporal logic in Haskell by keeping a "history" of previous actions and then referencing them by their temporal characteristics. < 1279295938 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesnt matter how obnoxiously complex the thing on the right is, right < 1279295945 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the events they trigger, the time they occured, etc < 1279295956 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the denotation of the whole thing is just some abstract IO bind instance < 1279295988 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you would need some sort of thing to collect up the state of the world at every given point you realize < 1279295995 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a History monad, if you will < 1279296004 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, a list of State monads < 1279296006 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[State] < 1279296018 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first is most recent < 1279296125 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279296136 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279296151 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279296158 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279296165 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When you press the switch down, you launch missiles, and then press the switch up after 30 minutes" "forever $ do: if the switch is up, press it down." < 1279296191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: wtf XD < 1279296213 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first part defines an event and the consequence of that event < 1279296226 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the second part describes the program. < 1279296294 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so essentially an event is a combination of procedure and state < 1279296306 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the event occurs, a procedure is executed... and a state change occurs. < 1279296423 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you break it up into three statements. when the switch is pressed down, you launch missiles. if the switch has been pressed down for 30 minutes, press the switch up. forever: if the switch is up, press it down. < 1279296448 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe "always" is a better name than "forever" < 1279296558 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :essentially a declarative language with a notion of state and time rather than a list of sequential procedures. The first event is "program start". < 1279296688 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so essentially, since it's a declarative language, the use of a term in a logical definition creates its existence... rather than requiring it to be predefined. < 1279296746 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x is a tree. x has child y. x has child z. x has value 2. < 1279296786 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ala Prolog < 1279296800 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with time. :) < 1279296948 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /language idea for the day < 1279297329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, that switch thing sound basically like connecting an inverter to itself. An inverter with a very long delay though < 1279297362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*reads further* wait a second, where did the missiles get into it? < 1279297457 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh... that was the origina. I must have frgotten the missiles. < 1279297464 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a side-effect example. < 1279297476 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be a generic logical event. < 1279297485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, "language with a notion of state and time rather than a list of sequential procedures" sounds a bit like vhdl or such. Can't claim VHDL is declarative. Plus it supports sequential sections as well. < 1279297489 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the consequent of it defined elsewhere < 1279297663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, but if you want a language with a notion of state and time but not of sequence then some sort of hardware description language might be what you want < 1279297935 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there would be sequence. < 1279297997 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but basically the notion of sequence is constrained to events, consisting of sequences of "pure" logical assertions combined with other events. < 1279298002 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so an event is a procedure. < 1279298044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah like that < 1279298045 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1279298520 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You might want to look at 2iota, for something similar. < 1279299104 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.76.250 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279299172 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: apple are holding a conference today < 1279299180 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what happens if they don't hold it correctly?? < 1279299229 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good god, they could accidentally drop it. Dozens could be injured. < 1279299239 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TEAM LIFT, PEOPLE < 1279299250 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heed health and safety!! < 1279299292 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279299424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason it's always missiles; the C++ FAQ also shoots (nuclear) missiles in an example of method binding gone wrong. < 1279299450 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The FQA converts the example to cats and dogs -- without missiles -- in its description, IIRC.) < 1279299495 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :qsx < 1279299509 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1279299512 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: oh hi < 1279299522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bleh < 1279299529 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: up 2 anything this weekend? < 1279299541 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, some dude found a bug in thue.c. < 1279299551 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thue.c benig what now? < 1279299565 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original C implementation of the Thue language. < 1279299573 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: killing your "2" < 1279299578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it's C, it handles strings < 1279299581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gee am I surprised. < 1279299589 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i don't know what my "2" is :( < 1279299592 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're so confusing < 1279299594 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;< < 1279299600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"up 2 anything". < 1279299601 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's actually an error in the implementation of bubble sort used to sort the LHS's. < 1279299616 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why the LHS's have to be sorted, though. < 1279299619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I type on an iPhone Monday to Friday, you ever see me do that? You, on the other hand, have a keyboard. Use it, dammit. >_> < 1279299626 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Who found the bug? < 1279299634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that = "use such abbreviations" < 1279299656 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i don't have *my* keyboard here. < 1279299659 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's fucking disastrous. < 1279299672 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*my* keyboard is the ms natural 4000 < 1279299672 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, my silver spoon is bent. < 1279299679 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this thing is a logitech shitboard. < 1279299683 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1279299685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I type on a touchscreen with correct grammar and spelling. Shut it. < 1279299686 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you got it! < 1279299701 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well what can i do, you get a freakin' spellcheck < 1279299702 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Just a guy who I barely know (he reported a bug in my SMITH implementation in the past.) I don't think he hangs out here. < 1279299706 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop being silly < 1279299757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes (often) the spellcheck breaks. < 1279299763 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I fix the errors myself. < 1279299772 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note that on the iPhone I still type faster than most people here. < 1279299777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ergo speed is no excuse. < 1279299785 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1279299799 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should start hanging out with avrfreak < 1279299799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really, really hate "u" and "2". < 1279299842 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sorry about that alise, i'm sure we'll come to a mututal agreement on some astral plane < 1279299854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Astral plane". Also don't say that. < 1279299859 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1279299879 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you didn't get the right altar, did you? < 1279299882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's a New Ager term, and New Agers should be beaten to death with a cluebat. < 1279299904 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet you farmed puddings for weeks < 1279299917 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of which < 1279299917 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you don't have a cluebat handy, I hear a golf club works well too. < 1279299938 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: oh, nethack. < 1279299942 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that's because I spend all my time in pubs listening for rumours. < 1279299944 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if it's possible to implement a touring machine based on puddings < 1279299946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also known as the most boring game ever formulated. < 1279299966 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: here's a project for you ^ < 1279299980 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Are you anti-roguelikes in general, or just against Nethack? < 1279299996 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tried to frickin tab-complete after typing "Neth" < 1279299999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so the Nethack hate may just be mild ADHD talking. < 1279300010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Roguelikes could be good... but only /mine/. < 1279300013 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just trying to hurt my feelings < 1279300018 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: THERE ya go. < 1279300020 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's ok, because it shows you care. < 1279300031 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's almost scary how frequently we are on the same page. < 1279300031 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: What < 1279300033 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*What. < 1279300036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Cool. :P < 1279300046 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly I am your ... quarter-cousin. < 1279300070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either I have four parents, or we share 0.5 parents. < 1279300109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, wait < 1279300111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*wait. < 1279300114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be quarter-brother. < 1279300123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God knows what a quarter-cousin is. < 1279300125 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I loved Fargoal on the C64, I loved Moria on the Amiga 500, I quite liked ZAngband when I ran FreeBSD, but since then... yes. I did try to write my own roguelike once, in Perl. That was sort of a one-way trip. < 1279300177 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The great thing is how incompatible two not-invented-here-afflicted people are. < 1279300187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if they both share all design goals, they'll never be able to collaborate. < 1279300232 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha totally true < 1279300236 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love it when that happens < 1279300240 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's always a cockfight < 1279300267 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, speaking of cockfight, time to get a shower, bbs < 1279300289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awkward speaking-of there. < 1279300293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PONG PONG PONG < 1279300298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, Puppy uses Kdrive. < 1279300307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wrong! < 1279300309 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a custom package build. < 1279300311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lucid Puppy uses Xorg. < 1279300314 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't ship Kdrive. < 1279300315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it's full X? < 1279300318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lucid Puppy sucks donkey butt. < 1279300321 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :speaking of roguelikes < 1279300322 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Weird*. < 1279300327 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you fellows heard of Dwarf Fortress? < 1279300330 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It booted slowly and proceeded to be mediocre. < 1279300332 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes. < 1279300332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe 4.0 is better. < 1279300337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes; not played, however. < 1279300338 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No. < 1279300346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Definitely Tiny Core then? < 1279300354 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it not look ridiculously awesome? I want to take some time to play it eventually, but I feel it will be one of those games that takes a long time to get into. < 1279300366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, no. Yak Linux < 1279300369 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I cannot play most modern games for that very reason. < 1279300374 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I definitely don't have that kind of attention span. < 1279300379 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must find my awesomeness elsewhere. < 1279300390 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have trouble playing Monkey Island II. < 1279300395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Best game ever, though.) < 1279300398 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Katamari Damacy is a significant exception. < 1279300405 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it /makes/ a text based world... with fractal terrain and erosion, places town, and constructs a background story for the whole world. < 1279300432 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like... a text-based gamers dream. < 1279300453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Tell me you've played at least the Secret of Monkey Island and Monkey Island II: LeChuck's Revenge. < 1279300457 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By "text-based", do you mean roguelike? Or -- how close to rogue do you mean, I guess? < 1279300458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not... go do so. Immediately. < 1279300491 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I played at least one of them, once. It may have been the first? I don't remember. < 1279300502 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: text-based as in a line-based terminal with text display. The gameplay is somewhat different than rogue however, because there is city management. < 1279300504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Damn, damn, that's not nearly enough familiarity. You're missing out. :P < 1279300564 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and combat is highly strategic, from what I've read. I still need to play it. < 1279300568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SoMI is great fun, MI2 is just amazing (and very long) < 1279300572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*long). < 1279300573 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does have that kind of attention span. :) < 1279300578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never could defeat LeChuck at the end though... < 1279300579 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: By line-based, do you mean... I have to press "Enter" after I issue a command? < 1279300597 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm not entirely sure, but I assume so. That's how most games I've played work < 1279300603 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it also likely depends on context. < 1279300622 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Curses. < 1279300630 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :traversing a large map, for example, might be character-input < 1279300651 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as could combat. I'm only guessing though. < 1279300670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had half-pictured an interactive fiction / roguelike hybrid. < 1279300679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION mixes kerosene, propylene glycol, sulphuric acid, artificial sweeteners, red dye no. 2, rum, acetone, battery acid, SCUMM, axle grease and/or pepperoni. < 1279300684 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION 's mug melts ... < 1279300690 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well, sort of. < 1279300706 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with actual gameplay. < 1279300750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta mix that sometime (but then stay well away from it, of course). < 1279300755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, CakeProphet should do it. < 1279300840 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1279300842 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat? < 1279300851 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They warned about that recipe on Argentinian TV. Telling people not to drink this "Grog XD" -- the XD from a Facebook group title. < 1279300863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They had doctors wondering WTF "SCUMM" could be live on air. < 1279300870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: The recipe for grog from Monkey Island. < 1279300888 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...rofl. < 1279300889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCUMM = Script Creation Utility for Maniac Mansion, the engine powering LucasArts adventure games. < 1279300904 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dwarf Fortress' "predecessor" (Slaves to Armok) was also the craziness; I recall mooz drabbling around with it. < 1279300914 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the doctor then said that SCUMM was an alcoholic delivery service. < 1279300949 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...doesn't everyone get fucked up on Grog XD? < 1279300968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ssh! < 1279300974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We have them believing it's just something from a video game... < 1279300983 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I do. The battery acid gives it a nice punch. < 1279301008 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I think a Jenkem / Grog XD mixture is the bomb. < 1279301036 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh that Ol' Janx Spirit! < 1279301044 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard it works better when vaproized into a syringe and then injected. < 1279301052 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*vaporized < 1279301064 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is HHGttG boring now too? Hollywood did lamify it. < 1279301072 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anally injected, that it is. < 1279301074 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm too young to drink Pan-Galactic Gargle Blasters; it'd kill me instantly. < 1279301088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :H2G2 is still as amazing as ever; it's the movie that sucks. < 1279301098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Hmm, I've always injected into the urethra. < 1279301107 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although sometimes I use the actual penile flesh (technical term). < 1279301111 0 :swilde!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs) < 1279301118 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rofl < 1279301120 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. < 1279301158 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOMETIMES I JUST RIP OPEN MY RIBCAGE AND BITE OPEN MY HEART AND POUR ACID INTO IT < 1279301170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEN USE A SEWING MACHINE TO FIX IT < 1279301290 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUCK YEAH < 1279301379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOMETIMES I JUST URETHRALLY INSERT A PLANE CARRYING A NUCLEAR BOMB AND TURN IT ON AND IT RIPS UP MY BODY AND DETONATES < 1279301544 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that is certainly a hard act to follow. < 1279301602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOMETIMES I RAPE A BLACK HOLE MADE OUT OF DARK MATTER THEN TELEPORT HALF OF MY BODY TO THE HEART OF THE SUN < 1279301604 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1279301619 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi coppro! We're talking about inserting things into our urethras and raping black holes. < 1279301841 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1279301849 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1279301859 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm probably going to go do some baking < 1279301868 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then watch Inception at the "picture show" < 1279301926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"baking" < 1279301931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb < 1279301957 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes. But I figure by now the feds are watching me on this channel, so I prefer to be discrete. :) < 1279302037 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, er, let me rephrase that statement: < 1279302045 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth are you implying, alise? < 1279302079 0 :Gregor-W!836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279302096 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hackiki is down and I have no idea why and there's nothing I can do about it because I'm at work wtfwtfwtf < 1279302105 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo Am I still up? < 1279302112 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1279302118 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THAT'S a no :P < 1279302188 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ghost ride the whip < 1279302195 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_^ < 1279302316 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279302325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hi. < 1279302442 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^Z < 1279302456 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HAH! I just suspended #esoteric! < 1279302467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What do you think the quickest way of copying a file to shared memory is? < 1279302485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even ones that only work in special-cases, like say length. < 1279302614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flash on 64-bit is so shitty. < 1279302638 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose mmap doesn't count as "copying"? < 1279302663 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So in that case, probably mmap+memcpy, but only if memcpy is implemented with much awesometude. < 1279302665 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering what "shared memory" meant. shmget et al? < 1279302678 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair point as well, I figured MAP_SHARED would be sufficient. < 1279302728 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1279302730 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The mmap() function establishes a mapping between a process' address space and a file or shared memory object." < 1279302734 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-- SUSv2 < 1279302746 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1279302746 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, by "shared memory" I was trying to say "in-memory filesystem". < 1279302751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God knows why I said it like that. < 1279302754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although... < 1279302757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you mount a block of memory? < 1279302762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, memory is cool too. < 1279302767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like maybe mount some substring of /dev/mem. < 1279302796 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap ... could probably do that? < 1279302805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like ... how ... could mmap mount memory? < 1279302817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs the 64-bit Flash 10 alpha that Adobe retracted. < 1279302835 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confused. I haven't used mmap much. < 1279302839 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, apparently there's some security issue. < 1279302856 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you and another process could mmap the same file, it looks like, and share memory that way. Maybe? < 1279302868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I didn't mean shared memory dammit. >_> < 1279302876 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are sometimes memory filesystems. < 1279302886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279302889 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other times, OSes discourage you from specifying that. < 1279302899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Err... this is all irrelevant. < 1279302902 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We will decide that!" booms FreeBSD. < 1279302907 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now I have two questions: < 1279302917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(1) Can I mount a substring of RAM as some filesystem? < 1279302927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2) If not, what's the quickest way of copying a file to an in-memory filesystem? < 1279302940 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a bit silly that the "sendfile" syscall only works when the target fd is a socket; one would think it'd be fast for copying a file too. < 1279302955 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: By an "in-memory filesystem", do you mean the illusion of a filesystem presented to a particular process, or a mounted ramfs? < 1279302956 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what is this? some kind of question-procedure? Can we write another procedure that determines whether or not this one halts? < 1279302962 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What is your defn of an "in-memory filesystem" if you cannot mount such a thing? < 1279302972 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That is to say, is it acceptable for the process to have its own special FS layer separate from the OS? < 1279302973 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Umm ... tmpfs. < 1279302979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or ramfs. < 1279302981 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cp :P < 1279302984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: Okay, let me explain my full use-case. < 1279302994 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Why would we want to do such a thing? < 1279303001 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: FOR THEORY, DAMNIT! < 1279303005 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to write a Linux distro which runs in memory. < 1279303021 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Did I misinterpret the game? < 1279303024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore the distro will be in a loopback file, like foolinux.ext3. < 1279303034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I mount foolinux.ext3 so that the whole contents are copied into memory? < 1279303037 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: DAMN IT ME AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS CHANNEL JUST LOST THE GAME AND IT'S YOUR FAULT < 1279303044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ideally, I would load foolinux.ext3 into memory, then mount that memory. < 1279303046 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: By making it not .ext3 < 1279303058 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's not possible, I would copy foolinux.ext3 into an in-memory filesystem, then mount that in-memory file. < 1279303060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: What? < 1279303078 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. cramfs will always be expanded and mounted into memory. But I think cramfs is R/O, I think there's a R/W equivalent though. < 1279303098 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: DAMN IT THESE NEW FANGLED GAMES CHANGE TOO QUICKLY FOR ME TO KEEP UP < 1279303109 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Files in cramfs have to be <16MiB. Maximum file size is <272MiB. < 1279303113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Maximum filesystem size < 1279303117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Useless. < 1279303130 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I wasn't suggesting cramfs in particular, just that ext2 will give you no joy. < 1279303132 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, I'm fine with just cping an .ext3 into a ramfs; I'm just wondering if there isn't something better. < 1279303134 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*extwhatever < 1279303142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., can you mount memory? < 1279303144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, why not? < 1279303150 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because nobody has implemented that. < 1279303182 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can turn a block of memory into a block device if you want. < 1279303191 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could write your whole FS into a block of memory, compile that as the .data segment of an ELF file, then call that "mount.myfs" and it would mount without even taking a device argument :P < 1279303195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That would be nice. How? < 1279303234 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in the "memory technology devices" category; there are two that are based on usin "normal" RAM, IIRC. < 1279303243 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: tmpfs. tmpfs. tmpfs. tmpfs. < 1279303243 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStrLn $ replicateM 20 "LOOP" < 1279303248 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied < 1279303252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ehwot? < 1279303263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, because if I can bypass the filesystem overhead that'd be better. < 1279303283 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: There's something wonky with Codu right now. < 1279303290 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There's hardly any overhead. < 1279303291 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell replicateM 20 "LOOP" < 1279303291 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :execve failed: OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied < 1279303292 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can't fix it 'til I get home. < 1279303296 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah okay. < 1279303297 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But there is some. < 1279303301 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGOT? < 1279303304 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot? < 1279303305 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: ( map procedure ( list item1 item2... itemn)) is a handy thing :) i.e. bending a verb < 1279303309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So, what, is it a command like "makeblock start length /dev/foo"? < 1279303320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a syscall, or what? < 1279303335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Tmpfs exposes the buffers of the VFS as a filesystem. < 1279303340 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: fungot generally has good advice on this kind of thing. i.e. bending a verb < 1279303341 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you can perform dispatch however you like so that the condition handler is a function that takes a list of fingerprints at the end < 1279303373 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1279303373 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1279303411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: There are two different kernel drivers; I don't recall how either one works. Module parameters, perhaps. And the block devices thusly created won't be usable as normal RAM, so it's not very convenient. < 1279303427 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So could I do this: < 1279303432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap a file < 1279303437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :memcpy it to get it in memory < 1279303440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turn that memory into a block device < 1279303442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mount the block device? < 1279303450 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: This is *effectively* tmpfs. < 1279303461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, not quite. XD < 1279303471 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you'd dd the fsys image into the block device you set up earlier. < 1279303477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Ah. < 1279303480 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap a file. memcpy it to get it in memory. *Use that as the file*. < 1279303483 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's tmpfs. < 1279303483 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd be easy. dd is fast. < 1279303497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wouldn't it be better to do fizzie's suggestion? < 1279303508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Create block device. dd the filesystem file to that block device. Mount the block device. < 1279303518 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I think you're failing to get something. < 1279303523 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, whatever. If you support COMMUNISM. < 1279303525 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tmpfs is the simplest filesystem. < 1279303529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, I know, pikhq. < 1279303535 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*It doesn't require a block device.* < 1279303539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But Puppy boots slowly. So I'm going to be obsessive about this. < 1279303554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the lowest overhead you can get in unpatched Linux for a filesystem. < 1279303555 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speed is my only concern. I don't want to wait more than a few seconds to load, say, 100 MiB into RAM and mount it. < 1279303556 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might go with the "dump filesystem image's contents into tmpfs or something" thing too; regular filesystems aren't very memory-optimized, I guess. < 1279303565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's say 7 seconds for 100 MiB. *Absolute maximum.* < 1279303579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're limited by disk speed there. < 1279303581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, I was just going to dump the image itself, then mount that. < 1279303584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: USB stick. < 1279303590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or hard drive. < 1279303591 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or SSD. < 1279303598 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 56k PXE < 1279303599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB sticks are slow man. < 1279303604 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine. < 1279303606 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still. < 1279303608 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puppy boots slowly. < 1279303609 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fact. < 1279303704 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your mom boots slowly too, but isn't it worth it? < 1279303706 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZING! < 1279303718 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SG1 TIME! < 1279303741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, you *can* use a memory-based block device if you want. One of the drivers is called "phram" (the newer); another is slram. < 1279303771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Any guesses as the speed vs tmpfs? < 1279303773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's all kinds of "use graphics card VRAM as a swap device" trickery people do with phram. < 1279303774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*as to the < 1279303817 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg < 1279303822 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're talking to the betazoide < 1279303826 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea. Best to use some XIP-capable file system, at least. < 1279303898 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. < 1279303901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Linux support that? < 1279303937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems only cramfs and some new experimental thing. < 1279303944 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No idea; unpatched it might not. < 1279303948 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Does Puppy use XIP? I guess not. < 1279303956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XIP??? < 1279303963 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Execute in Place. < 1279303974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ability to run programs directly from the filesystem, rather than copying them to RAM first. < 1279303978 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I just looked that up. < 1279303996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it doesn't, then Puppy has two copies of every single program it runs in RAM. < 1279304023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. I don't know. I'd hope it does... < 1279304037 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait. tmpfs, right? < 1279304044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, considering Linux seems to have two filesystems that support it, the near-useless cramfs and some experimental one... < 1279304047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it does. < 1279304048 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Yes*. < 1279304049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it uses squashfs. < 1279304056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ? < 1279304065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, wait, it's squashfs. Never mind. < 1279304075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, what, would tmpfs do XIP? < 1279304082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: With tmpfs XIP "just works" without any code to support it. < 1279304101 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hmm. Load program into RAM... Oh wait it's *already there*... Mmmkay." < 1279304105 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One would hope it works with tmpfs, since it'd be pretty silly if not. < 1279304106 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION feels a bad interaction lurking with XIP < 1279304126 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope it locks the executable < 1279304127 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All because it exists almost entirely in the virtual filesystem's buffers. < 1279304141 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only thing that would make sense < 1279304165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Read-only sections of the executable only... < 1279304166 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since when do software components make sense? < 1279304190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it changes hardly anything anyways. < 1279304196 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It could do copy-on-write on those data pages or some-such. Besides, don't you want to do live-patching of binaries? < 1279304200 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Executables are already just straight-up mmap'd. < 1279304204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so, new question. < 1279304208 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Granted. I shall wear the Bucket of Shame on my head for 2 minutes, as a reminder of my folly. < 1279304209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I have a .tmpfs file? :-) < 1279304217 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, you just mmap the suckers into RAM. < 1279304225 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's called an "initramfs". < 1279304245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hmm... of course. < 1279304246 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: If it can be finagled so that it doesn't crash, I would love that, of course. < 1279304254 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Having everything in an initramfs is considered unusual, isn't it? < 1279304256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like unusual. < 1279304264 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Only slightly. < 1279304282 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we should create an operating system in which programs are run from hard drive, and persistent data is stored in memory until shutdown when it is written to disk. < 1279304285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: :( < 1279304285 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a good idea, guys. < 1279304288 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1279304293 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't like "only slightly". < 1279304302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Or an OS where RAM is just disk cache. Oh wait, that's aliseOS. < 1279304304 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's commonly done for *floppy disk* distros. < 1279304313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Protip: Come up with an OS idea. I've already thought of it. < 1279304316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: >:) < 1279304324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, and I'll compile the initramfs into the kernel too. < 1279304328 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I'm BADASS. < 1279304339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Can you figure an initramfs to run another filename apart from /init? < 1279304343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cluttering up / like that is :(. < 1279304350 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*configure < 1279304358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: init=/some/other/filename < 1279304362 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woot. < 1279304379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how fast does an initramfs load? < 1279304390 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on the bootloader. < 1279304403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay; which bootloader will load it the fastest? < 1279304409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dunno. < 1279304429 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::| < 1279304433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably one of the more full-featured ones, like GRUB... < 1279304440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeck. < 1279304447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As the others are a bit more likely to go through BIOS hard drive commands. < 1279304453 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will it load faster or slower with compression? I guess faster; CPU is fast, disk is slow. < 1279304453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(slow as heck) < 1279304457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially for USB etc. < 1279304462 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: do you / did you watch stargate sg-1? < 1279304469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I dunno, SYSLINUX is pretty mature. < 1279304484 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: LZO is very fast. Definitely faster than your disk. < 1279304492 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ah yes, LZO. < 1279304497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What about LZMA? < 1279304503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's about a third the speed of *memcpy*. < 1279304506 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: I watch it now and again. < 1279304509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LZMA is hella-slow to decompress. < 1279304516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No LZMA then. < 1279304520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about gzip vs LZO> < 1279304521 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who's your favourite character alise? < 1279304522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Oh, wait. No. < 1279304522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*LZO? < 1279304526 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hella-slow to *compress*. < 1279304530 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much slower than gzip. < 1279304537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: LZO's a few times faster. < 1279304563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So would I save more by using LZMA and saving space but with more cPU time, or LZO and have more to read but quicker decompression? < 1279304577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Furthermore, how's LZO's compression rates vs gzip/LZMA? < 1279304605 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LZO's a bit worse than gzip, but not exceptionally. < 1279304612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So would I save more by using LZMA and saving space but with more cPU time, or LZO and have more to read but quicker decompression? < 1279304613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279304614 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*CPU < 1279304616 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LZMA is *much* better at compression than gzip. < 1279304617 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, impossible question. < 1279304623 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise???? < 1279304631 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's a function of how quick your CPU is. < 1279304635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And your disk. < 1279304670 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shall do some testing on how fast LZO is... < 1279304676 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Two runs of your algorithm, then: (cpu=cheap core2, disk=USB stick); (cpu=cheap core2, disk=laptop hard drive) < 1279304677 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Giant tarball of SNES source, away! < 1279304682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(5400 rpm disk) < 1279304703 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs lzop < 1279304714 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: what? tests? We're not computer scientists here! We're computer speculators! < 1279304809 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka computer mathematicians *shot* < 1279304896 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there compression algorithms that operate sequentially? < 1279304908 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm, compressing several gigabytes as a test... < 1279304908 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning < 1279304926 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you decompress a sequential stream without having to complete the whole algorithm? < 1279304943 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you mean you can decompress starting from say half way? < 1279304954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean in a stream? < 1279304958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not load, decompress < 1279304959 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a stream < 1279304965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1279304966 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. RLE < 1279304972 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the reason I ask < 1279304974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :replace x repeated n times with x^n < 1279304988 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decompression: read x^n, output x n times, repeat untl EOF < 1279304989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*until < 1279304992 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is you make use of two cores that way. Having one decompress the stream and the other do whatever needs to be done with the other. < 1279305009 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/with the other/ with the decompressed stream < 1279305017 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know what? Actually, I'm going to tar this up first. I'm pretty sure a single sequential file read is faster than reading oodles of files. < 1279305021 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/you make/ you can make/ < 1279305056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: For fairness, do it in a tmpfs. < 1279305069 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Too big. < 1279305076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm compressing like 12G. < 1279305099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, you don't have that much RAM? < 1279305102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279305209 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279305215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ais523. < 1279305227 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1279305264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Would you be surprised to hear that my Linux distro has taken yet another turn? < 1279305292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1279305303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought not. < 1279305348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Now it's going to be loaded into RAM, like Puppy Linux / Tiny Core Linux. < 1279305394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for speed? < 1279305422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: For speed and also ... I dunno, simplicity in a way. < 1279305434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll be simple enough, anyways. < 1279305435 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just seems like a good kind of design decision if your distro is small enough. < 1279305438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Small. < 1279305441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you have minimal RAM it should be fine. < 1279305451 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Puppy works just fine with 128 MiB. < 1279305509 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Puppy's actually pretty darned large, considering. < 1279305522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I doubt Lucid Puppy would work with 128 MiB. < 1279305527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But older versions that were 80 MiB. < 1279305628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So should I compress the kernel-with-initramfs, or have an uncompressed kernel with a compressed initramfs? < 1279305635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whichever is faster, basically. The difference should be minimal. I think. < 1279305639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*size difference < 1279305640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Whole thing. < 1279305645 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1279305711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmkay. Speed test of 16.5GB tarball, AWAY! < 1279305738 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It took 12 minutes to *tar*... < 1279305742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have two ingrown toenails. :( < 1279305821 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lzop appears to be running faster than my disk. < 1279305826 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: :wat: < 1279305828 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279305837 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For *compression*. < 1279305840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sure it's not just faster than the byte-by-byte car? < 1279305842 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*cat < 1279305875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's spending time in the kernel waiting on the disk. < 1279305893 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's jumping between 40% and 70% CPU usage. < 1279305938 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279305982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So, LZO'd kernel is probably the best route? < 1279305987 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1279305993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Booted by a bootloader that doesn't use the BIOS. < 1279305994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to have to compare with cp. < 1279306021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The reason for that last bit is simple: the BIOS's disk reading routines let you read 512b at a time. < 1279306036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And they're naive. < 1279306037 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'd had that too < 1279306044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: What did you do? < 1279306054 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i'd hat them operated < 1279306060 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort of allergic to going to the doctor's, so I'm doing what every insane person does: self-diagnosing a treatment with Wikipedia. < 1279306062 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*had < 1279306063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll read a full disk block, and then hand you 512b of it. And then read the same disk block when you ask for the next 512b. < 1279306066 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on. < 1279306079 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: are they too wide < 1279306080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well hey, I learned that it's the skin that's the issue, not the nail! < 1279306080 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1279306088 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Basically they're poking into the side. < 1279306098 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea you gotta get them operated < 1279306101 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hadn't had a problem once since < 1279306106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not red as in the kind of red it would be if infected, although it gets red if you bash it of course. < 1279306107 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they were like, rotting < 1279306111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mine isn't rotting. < 1279306115 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give it time < 1279306118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had them for ages, and they're not painful almost always. < 1279306125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'm not too worried; I doubt they're infected. < 1279306133 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're not, but they're feet < 1279306137 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if they haven't got infected by this point I doubt they ever will. < 1279306142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Good observation. < 1279306145 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they get dirty sweaty and infected at the first chance < 1279306150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1279306151 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think about it < 1279306155 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to do it anyways < 1279306157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if it's been this long? < 1279306168 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279306174 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd had it for years before it got so bad i couldn't get on < 1279306176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. It would appear that Linux's readahead is *awesome*. < 1279306183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Yeah, uh, mine is just ever so slightly poking in. < 1279306188 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do it you'll have to stay at home for at least a couple weeks, maybe a month < 1279306193 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hint hint < 1279306195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously. It looks normal. < 1279306205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might just soak them in water. < 1279306205 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta get it done at some point < 1279306211 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soaking in water makes it worse < 1279306215 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want to do that < 1279306218 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not what WP says. :P < 1279306222 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka Lord over Truth < 1279306226 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia never had ingrown toenails < 1279306232 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1279306242 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, I trust something with references more than your personal anecdote. < 1279306255 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :references shmeferences < 1279306266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Okay, so compression took 8 minutes, ran at 33 MB/s, and the resulting output was 12G. < 1279306270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's put it this way: These things have been there for a year. They haven't changed at all. < 1279306288 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are only very slightly pinkish due to the, you know, actual poking, and don't hurt when walking. < 1279306288 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12341538026 bytes vs. 17685739520 bytes. < 1279306288 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have had them for longer than that before they got bad < 1279306294 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at some point they'll go bad < 1279306298 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My feet have been terribly sweaty and dirty at a few points in that time < 1279306300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*time. < 1279306302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you like decompression test naow? < 1279306302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing happened. < 1279306312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Shur, compression doesn't matter so much to me :P < 1279306315 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep same here < 1279306316 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What was the input size? < 1279306327 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at some point the place in the skin gets wounded < 1279306327 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16.5 GB. < 1279306334 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then, the toenail keeps the wound open < 1279306345 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it gets infected and full of pus < 1279306355 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The skin has been wounded. < 1279306357 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, decompressing to /dev/null < 1279306358 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nothing happened. < 1279306366 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you've been lucky so far < 1279306367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I know, I'm rationalising. < 1279306381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mind, I do have an excellent immune system. < 1279306394 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had a serious infection recently and only felt slightly icky, and that was because of the strong antibiotics. < 1279306399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It was not due to the toenails.) < 1279306419 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, same here < 1279306425 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i get all infections out without drugs < 1279306445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I wouldn't have got this one out. < 1279306449 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hadn't taken antibiotics in recent times < 1279306458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was on an antibiotic they give to people who have serious infections fucking up major internal organs. < 1279306481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Amusingly, what caused it was falling off a swing I was sitting on. It was not moving (there isn't much place to sit outside in the unit). < 1279306491 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd been taking warfarine once < 1279306503 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: 2:45, 71.3MB/s. < 1279306504 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possible side effects included blindness and death < 1279306512 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It /tilted/, causing me to fall down, but my feet stayed on. The force caused the string to move, and my feet fell off the swing. < 1279306518 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gravity noticed, and caused my legs to slam down. < 1279306521 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My knee hit my face. < 1279306525 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blood. Blood everywhere. < 1279306532 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1279306535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My mouth is now composed of blood. < 1279306536 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't sound nice < 1279306540 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now? < 1279306540 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, 70MB/s... < 1279306541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cut forwards one day. < 1279306542 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when bleeding, make sure to feint < 1279306542 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or then? < 1279306545 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1279306546 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then. < 1279306548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The outside of my mouth is swollen. < 1279306552 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Now, then. gzip? < 1279306554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really swollen. I look like half a cat. < 1279306560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It leaks pus often. < 1279306562 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cut forwards one day. < 1279306564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On serious antibiotics. < 1279306565 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or are you going to be happy with disk-bound compression? < 1279306568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cut forwards one week. < 1279306569 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All better. < 1279306572 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus < 1279306574 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one day? < 1279306575 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1279306581 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the hell < 1279306582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Well, it was infected from the start. < 1279306587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean one day? < 1279306589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BTW, that's 570 megabits/sec.) < 1279306596 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said it got swollen in pussy in one day < 1279306610 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah; the next day it was swollen, and leaked pus (very slowly). < 1279306616 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like a dribble. < 1279306618 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what i mean < 1279306622 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1279306624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was pretty awful. < 1279306625 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you break your jaw or something? < 1279306630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1279306634 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was just a really bad bash. < 1279306637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tests gzip naow < 1279306641 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jesus, not sure how that could even happen < 1279306657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Gravity is a bitch. I am bony, thus my knee is bony. < 1279306664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bone is hard. My mouthy area is not hard. Slam. < 1279306673 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Blood everywhere, huge possibility of infection. < 1279306685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At some point a little crowd of bacteria swims in and finds a nice, loving home. < 1279306691 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah wtf < 1279306696 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't you clean it straight away? < 1279306735 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was at the unit, so it went like this: < 1279306759 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. they took out the swing? < 1279306761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ran across the garden screaming, someone notices (obviously), "OW OW OW" says I, run inside. Look at self. "Oh jesus". Go upstairs. < 1279306775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gets dabbed and cleaned by the doctor. < 1279306780 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1279306783 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must've sucked < 1279306785 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the doc < 1279306794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, not really. I was in far too much pain to feel any more. < 1279306807 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you get morphine? <3 < 1279306815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. I got paracetamol. :P < 1279306829 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It got infected before I got inside, I wager. < 1279306855 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm surprised this even happened < 1279306860 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since british playgrounds have this uh < 1279306862 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :soft ground < 1279306862 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1279306868 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they're all nice and tidy < 1279306875 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now compare this with polska < 1279306882 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swings are out of solid metal < 1279306885 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the 'strings' < 1279306887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah, I never actually hit the ground with it I don't think. < 1279306890 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually rusty and unpainted < 1279306892 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the cords were metal here. < 1279306901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway. < 1279306905 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine it was something floating around in the air. < 1279306905 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard ground < 1279306910 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with shards of glass < 1279306916 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h68.11.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279306922 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Poland is a shithole. We get it. :P < 1279306937 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people get drunk on the playgrounds since that's the only place outside to 'sit around' other than parks < 1279306943 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and nobody cares to clean up) < 1279306948 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i'm only leading up to my story < 1279306971 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i was like 6, i was visiting an aunt with my mother and have went to the playground (they let me go on my own) < 1279306989 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i took a slide down the slid (bottom up) < 1279306998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A slide down the slid. < 1279306999 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Clearly Poland should raze the country and only let non-drunks back in. :P < 1279307001 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you mean you slid down the slide? < 1279307005 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1279307007 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i slid down the slide < 1279307009 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll be just like the Third Reich! < 1279307012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohwait... < 1279307018 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the slide was like, out of sheet metal pieces < 1279307020 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1279307020 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure that, on average, every Pole is always drunk. < 1279307023 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1279307027 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so anyways < 1279307028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Hardcore. :P < 1279307038 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's normal so far < 1279307040 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone took wire cutters < 1279307057 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and cut the edges of the sheet metal where they come together < 1279307058 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279307083 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had like six scars on my legs and stomach < 1279307086 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1279307099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch. < 1279307106 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the skin was cut open < 1279307138 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279307139 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was tough enough to find my aunt though in all this (and i've been there like for the first time i think) < 1279307149 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they sewed me up and it was all fine < 1279307166 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only one of the scars is left by now and it goes from the knee to the hip :O < 1279307188 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, your statistic is probably right < 1279307205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: So, where do you think I should start in developing my distro? < 1279307242 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: compile Vim into the kernel < 1279307277 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm gonna go buy some taiwanese < 1279307284 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take care sweethearts < 1279307295 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Get a freaking build environment. < 1279307301 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Done. < 1279307304 0 :ais523_!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279307310 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess I need a 32-bit thing. But eh. < 1279307312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, not using static uclibc or some such? < 1279307332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Not static. I'm keeping it complex for this. < 1279307335 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because complex is easy with Linux. < 1279307363 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, okay. < 1279307368 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So, what. Glibc? < 1279307393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe not glibc. < 1279307397 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But dynamic. < 1279307407 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eglibc? Uclibc? Newlib? < 1279307416 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1279307431 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's all the dynamic libcs for Linux. < 1279307437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much you can strip down eglibc. < 1279307444 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You forgot PDClib :P < 1279307452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1279307464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is only known to people on osdev.org. < 1279307471 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I keep accidentally palming the trackpad. < 1279307501 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION decides to support 32-bit with PAE. < 1279307519 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, i686 then. Mmm... < 1279307531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because dammit, you should be able to use more than 2 GiB of RAM; but dammit, I can't be arsed to deal with the incompatibility and space waste that comes from allowing every process to use more than 2 GiB. < 1279307540 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, it won't /require/ PAE. < 1279307588 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So... i386 with an i686 PAE kernel < 1279307589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1279307593 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess so. < 1279307598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PAE support, not requirement. < 1279307605 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Window manager will probably be JWM or a modified fvwm95. < 1279307624 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because try as I might, I can't get used to tiling managers. < 1279307630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I like my taskbar. < 1279307646 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The suckless guys should do a widgetful WM. < 1279307648 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279307657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that would suck more, I must admit. < 1279307664 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wmi/wmii are quite widgety < 1279307668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :albeit tiling < 1279307705 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gzip is one slow compression algorithm. :P < 1279307718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Any reason to support anything other than Xvesa? < 1279307726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1279307729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xfbdev will never be faster and come on, your system supports VESA, shut up. < 1279307738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And servers with specific drivers are too large to include; they can be packages. < 1279307740 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your graphics card doesn't support VESA you're a liar. < 1279307750 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, synchronicity. < 1279307773 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All Cretan graphics cards lack VESA support. < 1279307838 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm writing an overview of my vision for my CE. < 1279307862 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will pass it along here when I've done an acceptable draft, but for now -- lunch. < 1279307870 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop saying CE. I think Windows CE. < 1279307878 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You won't like me when I think of Windows CE. < 1279307889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Remember when you used to like autohell? < 1279307891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those were the days! < 1279307906 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that the term CE annoys alise: all the better. < 1279307907 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1279307913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. JWM has fribidi support. Why does a window manager need RTL support? Unless all your window titles are Arabic. < 1279307933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I do like it better than the alternative things. < 1279307956 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not so much because it's grand, because HOW DOES EVERYTHING BUT A SIMPLE MAKEFILE SUCK MORE?!? HOWWWW < 1279308016 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, most people suck at even making Makefiles. < 1279308017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I recall you yelling at me for writing a 3-line Makefile which didn't use $(CFLAGS) or something and telling me to use autotools instead. < 1279308025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't use CFLAGS because the makefile was almost literally: < 1279308026 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo: < 1279308034 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : $(CC) -O2 -Wall foo.c -o foo < 1279308034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Once upon a time. < 1279308047 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I now know a better reason to yell at you. < 1279308049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: On a dark and stormy night. < 1279308063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could be simpler. < 1279308067 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xinerama? Jesus christ, who gives a shit about xinerama! < 1279308072 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, I know, foo: foo.c. < 1279308079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that generates output with a ton of spaces because of empty variables. < 1279308084 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And OCD. < 1279308092 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo: < 1279308094 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : --with-x use the X Window System < 1279308097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, JWM, I would like that. < 1279308098 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Not even "foo: foo.c". < 1279308099 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just foo: < 1279308118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Convince me to enable fribidi support in JWM. < 1279308125 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're the defender of all things Unicodey, after all. < 1279308130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You *like* good text rendering. < 1279308142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I do... but my distro will be English-only, anyway. < 1279308157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it'll affect... Web page titles with Arabic in them. In the window title. < 1279308165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case set your freaking locale to C and purge all of Unicode anyways. < 1279308165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I'll have to include a whole library and also a bigger WM for it. < 1279308176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, no, I want accents and stuff to /work/. < 1279308181 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1279308183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But things like Arabic rendering properly /in window titles/? < 1279308187 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really find it hard to care, you know? < 1279308209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Then your locale shall be en.UTF8 < 1279308216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. < 1279308219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case *get it all working properly or else*. < 1279308235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'know what? No. :P < 1279308240 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shall find an example < 1279308258 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279308261 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Arabicrender.png The top is what happens if you don't do it right. < 1279308261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure. Find an example of not supporting RTL text in a window manager having a noticeable effect on someone who's decided to use an English-only OS anyway. < 1279308271 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The middle is the same, but right-to-left. < 1279308276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The bottom is the proper text. < 1279308282 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279308294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The most I could achieve is the middle. < 1279308300 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FriBiDi doesn't actually render anything. < 1279308321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*FriBidi < 1279308328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Freetype should do the actual complex text layout correctly. < 1279308337 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't believe JWM uses Freetype. < 1279308342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has a direct Xft configuration option. < 1279308344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it support xft fonts? < 1279308347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seeming to imply it goes lower than that. < 1279308354 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait. < 1279308355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah xft. < 1279308365 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I HATE X11S HANDLING OF TEXT SO MUCH < 1279308367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore I'm fucking over Arabic people anyway. < 1279308383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore I think between unreadable and more space usage and unreadable and less space usage I will pick the latter. No FriBidi for you! < 1279308393 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xft goes through freetype... < 1279308399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does? < 1279308400 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1279308402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1279308408 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's X FreeType. < 1279308411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1279308417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... bah. < 1279308421 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How big is FriBidi? < 1279308435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But... Then again. < 1279308441 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Freetype actually doesn't do the complex text layout. < 1279308442 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D: < 1279308468 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore no FriBidi. < 1279308479 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the job of ICU, Pango, Harfbuzz, or Graphite... < 1279308486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are there 4 libraries for it. D: < 1279308496 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do I need to support the Shape extension? All it gets me is fucking xeyes. < 1279308504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1279308516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XRender either? < 1279308528 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XRender is *good*. You *like* Xrender. < 1279308535 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in the WM? < 1279308537 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you're, y'know, omitting all antialiasing. < 1279308538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the WM need it? < 1279308567 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, probably not. < 1279308578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you want alpha blending. < 1279308586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New question: Any apps that have xpm icons and not png icons? Answer: No. < 1279308589 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xpm disabled. JPEG and PNG enabled. < 1279308598 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(JWM also does a rudimentary wallpaper+desktop.) < 1279308607 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Alternately, only XPM. :P < 1279308620 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird@dinky:~/yak/jwm-2.0.1$ CFLAGS="-Os" ./configure --disable-{xinerama,xrender,shape} --enable-{png,jpeg} --prefix=$HOME/yak/sandbox < 1279308657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*,xpm < 1279308783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, jwm with those options, dynamically linked against glibc with -Os, is 176 KiB. < 1279308792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not bad for the whole desktop, wallpaper and window manager. < 1279308839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I should try building the Arena web browser... < 1279308853 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1279308861 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how large it is. < 1279308871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, it'd not be *much* use. But still. < 1279308875 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly you should build Amaya. Note: Amaya is awful. < 1279308894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow... < 1279308901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? < 1279308917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's ugh. < 1279308946 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is? Amaya? < 1279308951 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yuh. < 1279309013 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh... JWM's configuration is XML. < 1279309044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Rate this idea: Patch lwm (http://www.jfc.org.uk/software/lwm.html) to support simple buttons on windows, make it look a bit nicer and use Xft, and then write a simple panel program. < 1279309053 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, *I* suck at even making Makefiles. < 1279309066 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... so is it really gonna be called Yak Linux? < 1279309071 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Could be nice. < 1279309083 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Make is easy. The trick is to not ever complicate things. < 1279309090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. < 1279309093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, you are not allowed to do recursive make. < 1279309095 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yak Linux: comes pre-shaven. < 1279309096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NONONO. < 1279309117 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wat. < 1279309117 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did I mention "fuck no"? < 1279309143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Recursive make is EVIL INCARNATE < 1279309145 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How do I define a general rule in a way that both BSD make and GNU make understand? I've never figured that out. I just write them longhand. < 1279309157 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Agreed on recursive make. < 1279309165 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I used recursive make once for a coreutils. < 1279309167 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: .foo.bar: < 1279309172 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: NONONO. < 1279309180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It made sense there, since you only ever used the top level for building the whole thing. < 1279309201 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK, let's put it this way: Recently, the Plan 9 team wrote a recursive Makefile. Unashamedly. But they did it properly. < 1279309202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thing is, recursive make breaks all dependency information. < 1279309213 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Inherently*. < 1279309231 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer a shell script called make.sh, over recursive make, anyday. < 1279309235 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only way to legitimately do it is if you have *no* cross-subdir dependencies. < 1279309245 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case you might as well make a simple shell script. < 1279309247 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Such as when writing a coreutils. < 1279309257 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because make can avoid rebuilding things. < 1279309258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279309277 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The simple shell script calls multiple make instances. < 1279309294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, also, recursive make makes avoiding rebuilding things much more difficult. < 1279309316 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you have to call several instances of make just to figure out "Oh, nothing to do". < 1279309318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or DOES it. < 1279309320 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, fine. < 1279309324 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sinned. < 1279309342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Quick! Tell me a terminal that doesn't use a crazily wacked out interface different from everything else like xterm does! < 1279309342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could be worse. Coulda done recursive Ant. < 1279309353 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For more information, see "Recursive Make Considered Harmful". < 1279309369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: A *simple* terminal? < 1279309377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does not exist; here, have an editor. < 1279309379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: gnome-terminal is pretty sane, but rather complex < 1279309382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Not necessarily. < 1279309389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :st's probably the closest. < 1279309390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Linux console terminal, if you don't care about a GUI < 1279309391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just something that isn't crazy like xterm and urxvt. < 1279309399 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, proper vt100 emulation, but saner keybindings. < 1279309401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe even menus, < 1279309405 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YakTerm < 1279309420 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I feed the NIH. I feed it.) < 1279309440 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Sorry. I am not emulating vt100. < 1279309465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe YakEd. Maybe YakWM. < 1279309470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not YakTerm. < 1279309554 0 :kar8nga!~kar8nga@m-42.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1279309621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How's about writing something that uses VTE? < 1279309633 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that a library that emulates a vt100 for you? < 1279309635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it provide a widget? < 1279309638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279309644 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then ... okay. < 1279309646 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohwait. It's GNOME. < 1279309650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck. < 1279309659 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost got excited. < 1279309699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it *only* appears to depend on GTK... < 1279309708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yay! < 1279309710 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and Pango. < 1279309712 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What license is screen? Maybe it could be ripped outta there... < 1279309713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Then I can write it with Vala or Genie. < 1279309720 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: GPL, probably. < 1279309724 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hah. < 1279309729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: GPL, probably. < 1279309734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ideally I'd like a Vala or Genie that bound to, say, FLTK. < 1279309745 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe screen could be "welded" to a GUI window. < 1279309755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: o_O < 1279309760 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screen itself outputs VT100 codes. < 1279309764 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you could just look at st? < 1279309771 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Does it? I thought it used curses. < 1279309777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, okay. < 1279309781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, does it/ < 1279309783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it? < 1279309787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: st is a bit not what I want though. < 1279309791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does use curses. < 1279309792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly requires libncurses < 1279309796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a conventional terminal wrapped in a wrapper that doesn't suck. < 1279309804 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You could start with it and work from there. < 1279309815 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Modify curses to do some kind of monospace GUI character placement, and whammo. < 1279309816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If I'm talking to GTK, I'm not using C. < 1279309819 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the nice things about Suckless code is that it is all pretty understandable. < 1279309830 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised. screen on a VT100 terminal is a self-interpreter. :-) < 1279309836 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Because that would involve GObject. < 1279309839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: And yes, if you're talking to GTK there's no fucking way you're using C. < 1279309844 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :st uses C. < 1279309848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GObject can be fine when wrapped. < 1279309854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GObject/C is just ... < 1279309856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just GObject/C. < 1279309873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GObject feels more like a language implementation than a user API. < 1279309982 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Wait, I forgot. FLTK is C++. < 1279309984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh. < 1279310007 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can anyone screw up such a breath of fresh air in that way? < 1279310049 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Xlib, anyone? < 1279310097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What about it? < 1279310107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's C. < 1279310111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1279310115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Granted, it's also agony to use, but that's beside the point. < 1279310123 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: BTW, smallX includes its own tiny Xlib. So if I could find the sources and if we could get them to build, we could really shrink X11 stuff. < 1279310139 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're working on a replacement for Xlib < 1279310147 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you mean XCB? < 1279310149 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sucks < 1279310153 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: BTW, gzip compression went at 13.6MB/s, took 20 minutes. < 1279310154 0 :aschueler!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1279310154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's more bloated < 1279310157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the whole problem < 1279310170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xcb did one thing right: asynchronicity < 1279310176 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they decided XLIB WASN'T LOW-LEVEL ENOUGH < 1279310378 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Decompression went at 50.4MB/s, and took 3:19. < 1279310388 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The resulting file was 9.8GB. < 1279310398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ... LZO made it bigger? < 1279310410 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, LZO aims for *speed*. < 1279310422 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ < 1279310422 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   | < 1279310422 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :   >\ < 1279310426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh, wait. Sorry, your confusion is my fault. < 1279310433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The source file was 16GB. < 1279310446 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gzip compressed it was 9.8GB, LZO compressed it was 12GB. < 1279310452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Okay < 1279310459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Decompression [...] The resulting file was 9.8GB." < 1279310462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can see how I was confused, < 1279310464 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Okay. < 1279310466 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279310474 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My fault. < 1279310658 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You know, it is entirely possible we're distantly related. My mom's family is from Britain. < 1279310680 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279310691 0 :aschueler!~alec@host86-131-213-11.range86-131.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279310713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: How are we ever going to get married so I can enter the US now?! < 1279310742 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: We'll claim we're different species! They'll love that. < 1279310744 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I live in a world where bigamy is legal but incestuous marriage is not. < 1279310829 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Federal government won't recognise it. < 1279310859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAMMIT < 1279310865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darn incest laws! < 1279310944 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, it's the "gay" bit. < 1279311542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pfft, gay marriage is the only accepted form of marriage in my world. < 1279311551 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone is polyamorously gay with everyone but their own family. < 1279311771 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I can't figure out what to do next w/ Yak :( < 1279311857 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: why not their own family? < 1279311886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because incest is illegal! < 1279311891 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what? < 1279311899 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if incest is wrong, then i don't want to be right!!! < 1279311913 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1279311926 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As is heterosexuality. < 1279311943 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said it, girl < 1279312040 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. New kernel. < 1279312085 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it fuck up this time? < 1279312103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Meet the new kernel, same as the old kernel. < 1279312107 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, new kernel marked stable in Gentoo. < 1279312122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: LZMA support for squashfs! < 1279312128 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woo. How boring. < 1279312142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Omigod, FLTK actually has a semi-decent theme. < 1279312158 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And a 300% increase in speed on threaded page faults on x86_64... < 1279312214 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why is squashfs cool? < 1279312241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a decent compressed filesystem is all. < 1279312250 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circle of iron/silent flute is on < 1279312253 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kickass < 1279312263 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 that movie so far < 1279312286 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"a fish has saved my life once" "how?" "i ate it" < 1279312348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: what channel? < 1279312377 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tele 5 < 1279312391 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only turn it on if you know german < 1279312488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were in the UK. < 1279312507 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or can you receive it all the way here? < 1279312623 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not < 1279312628 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm in germany now < 1279312635 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you forgot! < 1279312650 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i might return to the uk soon though < 1279312654 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to go to cambridge < 1279312671 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could abduct you and get you drunk at a pub or something < 1279312679 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I thought you were just planning to go to Germany. < 1279312680 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you promise not to tell < 1279312682 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1279312685 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cambridge; like Oxford for retards. < 1279312695 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not trying to get into cambridge < 1279312709 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just have a buddy there who works at the uni, and i might get a job in cambridge too < 1279312772 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if i do, i'll rent a room from him and will enjoy the place for some time < 1279312775 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd lived in oxford too < 1279312786 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are fun places to be in < 1279312853 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as far as universities i have tried to get into oxford, not cambridge :D < 1279312952 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cambridge: oxford for murderers < 1279312965 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i dunno if the murderers or non-murderers split < 1279313384 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279313523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi zzo38 < 1279313620 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :split? < 1279313624 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they didn't really split < 1279313637 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was uproar in oxford after the students killed a peasant < 1279313644 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they all ran away < 1279313656 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some to the polytechnique, some to cambridge, some elsewhere < 1279313670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, cambridge was founded by oxfordians leaving oxford because of that < 1279313673 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after some time they came back from cambridge to oxford, some stayed because they liked it there < 1279313674 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1279313707 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when i said they went to cambridge, i meant they went to the plot of land at the river cam that some of the monks/lords had bought. < 1279313716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1279313733 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they sat it out and then they went back to their luxurious residences < 1279313737 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway not all of them ran away did they < 1279313748 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones that didn't got killed < 1279313762 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was dangerous for 'em < 1279313774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't the story i hear from my friend ;) ofc there's only, what, total bias there < 1279313781 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a typical case of the simple man being unhappy with the privileges of higher spheres < 1279313807 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was an uproar and a mob < 1279313814 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clerics were safe in oxford < 1279313820 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why did they kill the peasant anyway < 1279313829 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was some accident i believe < 1279313832 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't remember < 1279313840 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was long ago and i wasn't paying attention. < 1279313854 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99 was born ten thousand years ago < 1279313875 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am beyond time and age. < 1279313971 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want good shoes, go to oxford though < 1279313975 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the turl < 1279314031 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was reading up on oxford laws < 1279314049 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a student is not allowed to own dogs, hawks, bears, or any other hunting animals < 1279314058 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can only have one cow < 1279314070 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you do it can be fed free at the meadows < 1279314076 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly all Oxford students should have a pet cow. < 1279314091 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not allowed to shoot bows at university grounds. < 1279314099 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that includes nerf guns. < 1279314286 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: have you seen this movie? < 1279314298 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circle of iron < 1279314302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1279314313 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a cool kung fu movie < 1279314321 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's got this half chinese guy, what's his name < 1279314347 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :david carradine < 1279314367 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMFG < 1279314373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foh my ocking god. < 1279314378 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huge fucking plot twist < 1279314383 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was sweet < 1279314414 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's better is < 1279314426 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the final boss is dubbed by the same guy who dubbed spock in TOS < 1279314481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spock was dubbed? I had no idea. < 1279314587 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279314594 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in german tv yes < 1279314599 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything is dubbed in german tv < 1279314650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1279314658 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the language is Perfectsprachen. < 1279314666 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zactly < 1279314678 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i wager a bet that the voices make the movies better rather than worse < 1279314689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they're bad movies, maybe. < 1279314693 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes i'll watch the original version and the actor has this wimpy voice < 1279314705 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the voices are barely audible since there's no post-prod < 1279314715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to imagine anime with German voices now. < 1279314717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disturbing. < 1279314734 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually pretty cool < 1279314746 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naruto in german is lol < 1279314866 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :germany has a lot of weaboos < 1279314871 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and trekkies < 1279314881 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :star wars hasn't caught up < 1279314901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Germany does seem to have a rather high weeaboo population. Quite strange. < 1279314910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Germany's a bit of an odd place really. < 1279314916 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could enjoy it < 1279314925 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very tolerant of anything crazy < 1279314933 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you like animus alise? < 1279314934 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer Star Trek instead of Star Wars, anyways. But I am Canadian < 1279314955 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1279314955 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279314961 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to both of the assertions in that sentence < 1279314971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Some. I'm not a weeaboo but I can appreciate a good [imaginary singular of anime]. < 1279314989 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Star Trek is entertaining bad sci-fi, Star Wars is entertaining space opera < 1279314990 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1279314995 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "anime" is the singular. < 1279314996 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't need a sinular/plural of "anime" < 1279314996 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :star trek is the more entertaining of the two < 1279314997 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think an anime just started < 1279314999 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I know, I know, but :P < 1279315002 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or another kungfu movie... yup < 1279315006 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/sinular/singular/ < 1279315009 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279315014 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :der fluch des dunklen sees < 1279315017 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one's chinese < 1279315022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The plural of anime, if there exists one at all, is animetachi. < 1279315023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279315034 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :legend of the evil lake < 1279315036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Animetachi. Really now. < 1279315044 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes alise-san < 1279315052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Urgh. < 1279315053 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"-tachi" is "a group of". < 1279315061 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normally, plurals don't exist in Japanese. < 1279315074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are ways to specify that you are quite explicitly discussing more than one of something. < 1279315079 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is one of those ways. < 1279315123 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read the logs, in the US it is illegal to sell a computer without operating system? Is it allowed to be external disk? If it is required an operating system is it required to have a hard drive to install an operating system, or can it be in ROM? < 1279315128 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've never gotten into japanese < 1279315133 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there just isn't enough japanese around me < 1279315141 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clearly anime is the second-person past tense of animer < 1279315144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: IIRC, it has to have an operating system, but a floppy disc with FreeDOS on is enough < 1279315150 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the most common workaround < 1279315172 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what language would that be in? < 1279315172 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: So is allowed if it comes with a floppy disk and a floppy drive (otherwise there is no way to use it!), even if there is no hard drive? < 1279315174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: indeed < 1279315181 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's what I Said < 1279315183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*said < 1279315189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes < 1279315196 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: the language where infinitive verbs always end in "er" < 1279315198 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although people would be unlikely to buy a computer without a hard drive nowadays < 1279315215 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what language would that be < 1279315216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Moxtuto nihonnk゙o siyo~. < 1279315230 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: wat. < 1279315255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Anime is the abbreviation of animesixyon(animeshon). Which is of course Japanese for animation. < 1279315271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anime should technically refer to French animation :P < 1279315298 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're totally romanizing this like you're on lsd < 1279315298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Nani? H゙oku no henn na ro-mas゙i k゙a suki s゙ixyanai ka? Ikenaine. < 1279315314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: I'm doing a bizarre encoding of kana. :D < 1279315331 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, if by bizarre you mean WRONG. < 1279315338 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems a logical romanization but strange a bit < 1279315350 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, no, it's just very very systematic. < 1279315360 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not exactly like the same sound in English letters, but still a way to romamize kana in a well way < 1279315362 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if by system you mean FAILURE. < 1279315368 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a more exact way. < 1279315383 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like where "x" indicates small letters, and so on < 1279315385 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is no inexactness about the standard way of romanizing. < 1279315396 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And using grid romaji for most other letters < 1279315397 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, there actually is. < 1279315408 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you suuuuuuck < 1279315417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't distinguish between ぢ and じ, or づ and ず. < 1279315440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I encode as t゙i and s゙i, or t゙u and s゙u. < 1279315455 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tchi and ji? < 1279315456 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello? < 1279315468 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dzu and zu? < 1279315473 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tchi is the Hepburn encoding of っち. < 1279315482 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And dzu is not Hepburn. < 1279315485 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where have you been learning japanese - samurai sushi? < 1279315488 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279315502 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: you're wrong and pikhq is right < 1279315524 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was taught by a japanese and i remember that much < 1279315528 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:O < 1279315556 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways: each kana gets encoded into ro-mas゙i as a consonant-vowel pair. The moraic ん is encoded as "nn". Diacritics (the dakuten and handakuten) are encoded as the half-width katakana versions of each. A small kana is represented by putting x before the consonant. < 1279315568 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: your romanisations do not fit into any one romanisation system < 1279315575 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're just mixing shit around :P < 1279315576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A long vowel is encoded as in kana if the word is hiragana, or using - if the word is katakana. < 1279315579 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The problem is just using non-ASCII characters, but if you are going to use non-ASCII anyways just write directly in kana? Just use "di zi du zu" might still fit with your system if you want to use only ASCII < 1279315584 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :romanizations? < 1279315585 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279315600 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Those `` chars should be superscripts on the next letter or something, they break the text up weirdly. < 1279315600 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And encode moraic n always as "n'" is one way < 1279315601 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're not a weaboo, stay out of this, silly european < 1279315611 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: you said you don't know jp yourself < 1279315617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: If it's ASCII only, dakuten(゙) is ` and handakuten(゚) is ^. < 1279315618 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said i never got into it < 1279315620 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's different now < 1279315630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Superscript dakuten! < 1279315634 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK. < 1279315644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION visits urban dictionary < 1279315652 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Sadly, they're not combining characters. < 1279315664 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will it be insulting enough if i say i'm gonna go watch king of the hill cause it's more entertaining? < 1279315670 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You know Erdos' name? < 1279315670 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If there were such in Unicode, I'd use that instead. < 1279315675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the diacritic on that. < 1279315682 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still it doesn't make sense to me to use the dakuten and handakuten in romaji text, since if those are available you can use kana instead. < 1279315683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Close enough, you know? Like romanisations are close enough to kanji. :P < 1279315693 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: あんたが日本語分かるか。 < 1279315698 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :handakuten can be the o on top of Swedish's a-with-o char < 1279315701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tada < 1279315705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now go do that < 1279315717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait... < 1279315720 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That is still not ASCII. < 1279315722 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are combining versions of it. < 1279315723 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1279315756 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you using romaji if it is unicode anyways?? < 1279315758 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't care :P < 1279315762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yay do it < 1279315774 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In my IRC client, I can receive Unicode but not send it) < 1279315774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: ハンカクカナ ガ イイ デス カ。 < 1279315809 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way to go encoding japanese in katakana. < 1279315816 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :日 < 1279315820 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(フルイ コンピュータ ガ コノ ヨウニ ハンカクカナ ヲ ツカッタ。 ヘンダ ネ。) < 1279315823 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just testing if I could send unicode. < 1279315827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Congrats, you just said "sun"! < 1279315833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION yays! < 1279315864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Write some stuff in the combining chars :P < 1279315884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :。。。。 < 1279315885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: But that requires making it so I can actually input them... < 1279315887 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :。。。 < 1279315890 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: POO. < 1279315908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nihongooooooo < 1279315912 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are however, common Japanese words with common romanizations that should be used when writing English text, even if unicode is available. But if you are trying to include Japanese text inside of an English text, romaji should not be used if unicode is available. < 1279315917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the correct spelling of Nihongo. < 1279315920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, the ellipsis-equivalent is ……. < 1279315928 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That many dots? < 1279315929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1279315947 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two characters' worth. < 1279315954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1279315972 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :見えるかな。…… < 1279316028 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: とにかく、日本語で上手く話せるか。 < 1279316050 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 2 pokeballs in my drawer, the same drawer with the shogi game. < 1279316091 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you don't know who i am but i know where you live and if you start that sexual education course god help me i will" "- dale is that you?" "uh yes, can i speak to peggy?" < 1279316114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: kana is showing as sans but kanji as serif >_< < 1279316115 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the same drawer I also have a laminated paper that says "POCKET MONSTER PHILOSOPHICAL LEVEL 111" and with a wire through two holes in it. < 1279316123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Argh. < 1279316129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That sucketh. < 1279316135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i assume i only have a sans kana font < 1279316135 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1279316141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gothic & Mincho, BTW. < 1279316142 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Maybe whatever font(s) you use does something, < 1279316144 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :better than the unantialiased bitmap fonts in older ubuntu < 1279316147 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have a Chinese font installed? < 1279316149 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: way to go encoding english as hiragana < 1279316152 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That might be messing it up < 1279316171 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Waitwhat? < 1279316189 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can just speak to me in english < 1279316193 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll work too! < 1279316204 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll believe you if you just say 'i speak japanese ok' < 1279316254 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: It's when you start making claims that my bizarrely pedantic romanisation scheme is somehow "wrong" that I take offense, man. < 1279316265 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when you say ぢ is 'tchi'... < 1279316274 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can shake it out < 1279316284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, yes, after that I'm going to ask you if you can speak Japanese well, in Japanese. < 1279316339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Please tell me a GUI toolkit that doesn't suck. < 1279316369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :あるそ、 ずぃっす いっず いんぐりっし えん ひらがな。 < 1279316376 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1279316386 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What are you writing that needs a GUI toolkit? And what operating system is the software for? < 1279316395 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because those can change which ones you might use, also < 1279316405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, *that* is English in hiragana.) < 1279316418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Something that needs to be small and not totally ugly, Linux/C/X11. < 1279316437 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what that's supposed to mean < 1279316461 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a good thing i can split my attention across this and king of the kill < 1279316466 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: YakWindows. < 1279316481 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yakdows? < 1279316481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Stop that. :P < 1279316486 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1279316493 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: "Aruso, zlissu izzu ingurisshi en hiragana", using mostly-Hepburn. < 1279316493 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes it is English in hiragana. Not generally the best thing to do, and it doesn't work well, but I can see what it is < 1279316504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: Or, to clean it up, "Also, this is English in hiragana." < 1279316522 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Maybe you can write a C wrapper for FLTK. < 1279316532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yup. This is how people in Japan start learning English. Painful, no? < 1279316535 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, people write C++ wrappers for C libraries all the time, why not the other way around? < 1279316553 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, it is not a good way of doing so at all. < 1279316556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Possible, but a pain. < 1279316578 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: All I know is, I don't know. They all seem to suck to me, too. < 1279316585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FLTK seemed to come closest to not sucking. < 1279316618 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: right. < 1279316631 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qt makes me gag, as does Tcl/Tk. Not entirely sure why, but they do. GTK is awful, but better than those. < 1279316643 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's LessTif! < 1279316686 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're all pretty uniformly bad < 1279316687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The IT Crowd is so awesome. < 1279316688 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279316698 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1279316702 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what episode you watching? < 1279316707 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Xaw is OK with a few enhancements that might be made, but it is no good for Ubuntu. Perhaps write a code that can work with multiple toolkits and has a separate file for codes specific to different toolkit it will automatically do < 1279316712 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279316718 0 :FireFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1279316719 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use the C preprocessor if you have to < 1279316750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Java? < 1279316769 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I even asked the question on 10.07.15 20:04:25 nobody answer yet < 1279316773 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise! < 1279316799 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99! < 1279316806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not watching any episode atm, I was just exclaiming. < 1279316810 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1279316816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Xaw is so ugly my eyes actually bleed, though. < 1279316821 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i liked the one they found the guy in the closet < 1279316822 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's his name < 1279316825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here, ais523, you name a non-awful GUI toolkit. < 1279316839 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there one? < 1279316858 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I happen to think Xaw is OK, but not with Ubuntu and GNOME and that kind of stuff. < 1279316874 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't wxpython non-shit < 1279316885 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wxwidgets is shit < 1279316888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: FLTK, if it weren't C++. < 1279316901 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but wxpython un-fucks it < 1279316902 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm no GNOME fan or what have you but I can't stand Xaw. < 1279316905 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i had thought < 1279316920 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I am no GNOME fan either < 1279316932 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: wxWidgets is shit anywhere :P < 1279316940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it still uses GTK at the bottom on X11. < 1279317046 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what I know is if I write Linux distribution, the GUI programs would use a somewhat enhanced version of Xaw. (But there wouldn't be a lot of GUI programs anyways, most programs would run by command-line) < 1279317217 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Indeed, Java's whole GUI schtick is not bad. But it does tie you to Java, or rather, things you can compile to the JVM. Unless you know otherwise, sir :) < 1279317231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it has issues other than that < 1279317248 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that it has massive NIH syndrome < 1279317250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Such as being horribly slow, being Java, ... < 1279317257 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/not bad/not *that* bad, in the scheme of things/ < 1279317366 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahah... < 1279317367 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Santa's hand crept a little higher on the little girl's thigh. His touch was light but insistent as his fingers stroked her smooth skin just an inch below the hem of her short skirt. Penny held her breath, hardly able to believe that this happening. Surely Father Christmas wasn't suppose to do things like that. She watched mesmerized as Santa's hand moved slowly but surely upwards. His hand was under her skirt now, caressing and stro < 1279317367 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :king the soft sensitive skin on the inside of her leg, just above her knee. < 1279317373 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But clearly, someone needs to write a FLTK wrapper in C. < 1279317389 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shakes his head and sighs < 1279317452 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: What. < 1279317459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Or YakWindows. < 1279317461 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly. < 1279317466 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i agree alise. < 1279317508 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with the 'what.') < 1279317571 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at a loss as to where to start with Yak. < 1279317620 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yakkity Sax. < 1279317724 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Well, why did you feel a need for a GUI toolkit again? < 1279317734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To write GUI things in. < 1279317739 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: *Yakkety. < 1279317743 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What program are you writing, specifically? < 1279317837 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: She's putting together a Linux distro. < 1279317837 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Utilities for Yak. < 1279317879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess YakWM would be the thing to start with, but that involves Xlib. < 1279317893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Say, can you have a non-reparenting WM that draws borders? pikhq? < 1279317933 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1279317937 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK write a Linux distro. < 1279317948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You reparent for the explicit purpose of having something to draw the borders on. < 1279317957 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm way on the "write your own OS" end of the pool, myself. < 1279317984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What if you drew the borders in your own window around wherever the window is now? < 1279317995 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, it ends up being Smalltalk, no matter what you do, but somehow we trudge forward... < 1279318007 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's what reparenting is. < 1279318026 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You create your own window and declare that window's parent is your window. < 1279318030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No, not even parenting. < 1279318031 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I know is I will instead do it by modifying Xaw: Add keyboard functions (including tabstop and accelerator keys), and mouse choirding. And also condifuration file to set colors/fonts/etc, so that you can tell the difference of some button/toggle by colors, a few additional widgets, not much more. < 1279318039 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But most programs in my Linux distro will be command-line programs. < 1279318043 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardly any GUI programs < 1279318048 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just make your border window slightly bigger than the window, and draw it straight behind. < 1279318051 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Move it when that window moves. < 1279318052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No? < 1279318053 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I also started writing my own OS! < 1279318068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So... You want your own window around it, but PURE MAGIC to make them have any relation with the window being bordered. < 1279318119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. Because windows shouldn't go down with the WM ship. < 1279318130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: It's the only way! < 1279318132 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://sprunge.us/XiYf http://sprunge.us/bIfX < 1279318142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No way to do it in X. < 1279318146 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: :( < 1279318161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, except for using X compositing. < 1279318169 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I gave up making my own distro (of DragonflyBSD :)) long ago < 1279318188 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this case, you create your own windows and tell the programs to draw off-screen and you just ship events back and forth. < 1279318191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How can I make my WM not intrusive then? < 1279318195 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Ooh, PD example code for entering unreal mode. You are my hero. < 1279318202 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think WMs should hold windows hostage in case of their death. < 1279318206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: End X. < 1279318214 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes. Now you can do that too! < 1279318216 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: We need surreal mode. < 1279318217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: :P < 1279318230 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But when I get a new computer I will write a Linux distribution. < 1279318275 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likely with a lot of differences from other ones. Such as, no long options. Some difference in the commands. Different package manager. No web browser in core. < 1279318298 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A new window manager and new shell. < 1279318344 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It probably won't be POSIX anymore, although it is close enough that POSIX programs should run with making only a few changes (or no changes, in some cases). < 1279318398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ~/.menu/Editors/Emacs{,.icon.png} < 1279318411 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why hasn't anyone thought of this before me? OK, so I half-stole the idea, but still. < 1279318418 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And ~/.menu/Editors/.icon.png, ofc. < 1279318423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. < 1279318426 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/icon.png. < 1279318428 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279318428 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for simplicity. < 1279318453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Eh, Linux isn't POSIX anyways. < 1279318523 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279318604 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even /proc/ would work differently in my system. But not entirely differently, just with a few differences and some things added, and write-access to individual process directories (with certain permissions) < 1279318627 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279318671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/proc is not POSIX. < 1279318672 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1279318679 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I make these changes, shell scripts will very likeli break, but most programs written in C will continue to work (although sometimes a few small changes might be needed) < 1279318686 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes I know /proc/ is not POSIX < 1279318697 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still I would change it a bit to make improvement < 1279318704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore, feel *free* to hack the fuck out of it. < 1279318717 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If anything breaks from that, you didn't want it anyways. < 1279318718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279318745 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: OK < 1279318769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: You mean like ps? < 1279318786 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Didn't. Want. It. < 1279318788 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1279318814 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably won't change it so much to break ps but I might modify ps anyways < 1279318841 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/lab/robin/robin.html <-- There be my vision. Quite sketchy so far. < 1279318952 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The codes I posted for unreal mode is 888ASM anyways, so if you use a different assembler (which is likely) you will have to rewrite these codes in your assembler instead. < 1279318977 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Hm, I do (I use NASM) but it's short (surprisingly short) so it'll be easy to convert. < 1279319011 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Immediate suggestion: < 1279319013 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The A20 line code is part of the codes for unreal mode as well. < 1279319028 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh gosh, I remember that phrase ... "A20" < 1279319029 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Ernestine is like global variables. Make every process have its own ernestine. Now you have local variables. < 1279319035 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. installing its own mock drivers or whatevers... I dunno. < 1279319041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically, drop globals, make it all local. < 1279319047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: This lets you also give some processes restricted Ernestines. < 1279319055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i.e. block access to certain devices < 1279319071 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No. < 1279319080 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279319088 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, thanks for the suggestion, and yes you could do things like that, but, no. < 1279319103 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, unreal mode. < 1279319107 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You might have to change all numbers to decimal, I don't know how NASM works. 888ASM works exclusively in hex. < 1279319116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So crazy. < 1279319147 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :888ASM also works exclusively in uppercase. < 1279319263 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h68.11.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279319277 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279319291 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279319310 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The MBR code is also public domain, feel free to use it in any of your own operating systems or for whatever other purpose you want to use it for. < 1279319320 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: To start with, Ernestine is a lot more than global variables. If you want a local variable, you don't need Ernestine, you just write a device that stores things and start it, as a process. You know its device ID, you can send it messages etc., and if you don't tell anyone else the ID, only you can access it, thus local. < 1279319342 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you don't even need to go that far. Processes can store their own state, that is, local variables. < 1279319357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Of course. < 1279319361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: But let me put it more convincingly. < 1279319373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to start a process Foo. But I don't want Foo to be able to access the confabulator. < 1279319381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pass it a restricted ernestine that does not have knowledge of the confabulator. < 1279319382 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voila, security. < 1279319392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, you can only pass on altered versions of your own ernestine. < 1279319395 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or put a fake confabulator? < 1279319397 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just tell Ernestine not to let foo know about the confabulator. < 1279319407 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ernestine is answering queries anyway. < 1279319481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So Ernestine is the kernel. Okay. < 1279319485 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, should I explain where that name comes from, or is it part of your cultural basis? < 1279319514 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting your own Ernestine is a good idea though in one way, hook the fake Ernestine to the program, that passes everything other than the confabulator to the Ernestine that is real to you. < 1279319522 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Depends what you're referring to. < 1279319529 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have a similar idea for Linux) < 1279319530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Precisely. < 1279319547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You could also have a process's personal Ernestine, say, refer all its requests to you so you handle them., < 1279319548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*them. < 1279319555 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Do you know why I called it Ernestine? < 1279319567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, you COULD do all this by registering it with Ernestine, but then it'd just be a hacked-up implementation of local Ernestines. < 1279319572 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know. Probably not. < 1279319617 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's not hacked-up at all. It's intentionally centralized. How can I convince you this is a good idea? I probably can't. < 1279319660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279319662 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It's the name of a switchboard operator character made famous by Lily Tomlin. < 1279319675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Give me a good reason to like it in your fake-personal-Ernestine version. < 1279319707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You'll insist on seeing it as "fake-personal". < 1279319760 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A similar idea to a few of these things, not quite same as Linux or Ernestine (but it could be used in UNIX type systems maybe even Linux), is have a special file descriptor for accessing other things, and allow the program to hold it as a device with I/O control and so on. < 1279319773 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it won't work with current systems, it will only work when writing a new one < 1279319774 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Not necessarily. < 1279320056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'' < 1279320061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Its more formal name is digital tenovaginitis stenosans, which is ancient Latin for "electronic hand inflamed vagina without writing", which I believe is why most people prefer to call it Trigger Finger. < 1279320061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it, you know. Trigger Finger, I mean, not an inflamed vagina." --Steve Yegge < 1279320207 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting that he strongly believes you should make developer hiring decisions based on typing speed, then. < 1279320314 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Well, I know I wouldn't hire a developer that couldn't type at a reasonable pace. < 1279320344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who the hell wants code written by some guy who can't be assed to figure out how to touch-type? < 1279320378 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Steve Yegge's a really good writer, actually. < 1279320402 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddv7939q_20gw8h9pcx < 1279320407 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An excellent short sci-fi story. < 1279320524 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Then I guess I wouldn't be working for you. I can't touch type. < 1279320537 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't speed-read, either... < 1279320576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You...can't... < 1279320580 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm sorry, what? < 1279320584 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You hunt and peck? < 1279320614 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You... Can't... Touch type? < 1279320621 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: No, I can do it without looking at the keyboard. < 1279320628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Then? < 1279320630 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's touch typing. < 1279320633 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If that's what you mean by "touch type", then I can do it. < 1279320633 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's touch typing. < 1279320642 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, some people define it as "Blah you have to use the home row and never move off and blah" but they're retards. < 1279320643 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, then. < 1279320652 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm used to retards. < 1279320652 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Moving your hands about the keyboard is by far the superior option in both comfort and speed. < 1279320657 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: :) < 1279320673 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Any quick typist is at least going to be moving off the home row for speed's sake. < 1279320686 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My hands, for instance, only vaguely hover over the keyboard. < 1279320695 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Not the purists who use learn-to-type programs. < 1279320698 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They only reach down for the home row when I'm not actively typing. < 1279320708 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially the Dvorak advocates tend to be home row nazis. < 1279320715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never understood the whole "home row" thing, and I barely use my left hand. < 1279320716 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, really. The fingers just sorta float and come down to hit keys from time to time. < 1279320718 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably type faster than them. :) < 1279320727 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. It does kinda float *over the home row*. < 1279320731 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly my left forefinger. The others on my left hand do jack. < 1279320734 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: The home row is supposed to contain the most common letters, therefore NEVER MOVE OFF IT EVER. Of course, it doesn't, and even if it did that would be bad advice. < 1279320747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You may wish to learn to do two-handed typing. < 1279320749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I rest my fingers on keys obviously. < 1279320752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It *does* make typing faster. < 1279320773 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and my hands contort arbitrarily to use the modifiers < 1279320775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*modifiers. < 1279320783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike shortcuts with more than one modifier intensely. < 1279320795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just now noticing that when I actually start typing that I actually pick my hands off of the keyboards so that my fingers can move more freely. < 1279320798 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man. < 1279320809 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This has got to be really weird looking to people who advocate "proper technique". < 1279320821 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My typing style is interesting in that it's the closest thing you'll find to a /native typist/. < 1279320822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not fluent; native. < 1279320836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Oh? < 1279320837 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why? < 1279320839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How so? < 1279320843 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I don't know. < 1279320843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got a computer when I was three, typed a little bit until about two years after when I started typing more, and have been typing ever since, more and more over the years. < 1279320848 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean there's many thing I may wish. < 1279320857 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is extremely similar to language development, except starting at three instead of zero. < 1279320860 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Oh, you mean "why type with two hands"? < 1279320863 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have had no training or anything. < 1279320869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have learned to type purely from exposure. < 1279320873 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e., native typist. < 1279320874 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. < 1279320875 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Believe me, it's faster. < 1279320888 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore CHARLES DARWIN HIMSELF supports my typing style. < 1279320891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also more comfortable. < 1279320928 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I have never found typing to be the limiting constraint on anything I wanted to do with a computer. < 1279320929 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FingerHandPosUSA.gif This... looks like bullshit to me, though. < 1279320937 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1279320952 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: How fast do you type, pray tell? < 1279320966 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I have no idea. Not *too* slowly, surely. < 1279320973 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: man, the pinkies are really overworked. < 1279320984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Actually I just realised this second. < 1279320990 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: ? < 1279320998 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: The timespans of my learning to type /totally match/ language development times. < 1279321005 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Awesome. < 1279321006 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Coincidence? Maybe ... < 1279321024 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why does it look like bullshit? < 1279321025 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Explains why you can handle an iPhone and have it not really show. < 1279321042 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: My hands do not move that way at all. < 1279321050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hey, good point. < 1279321055 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn, that's cool. xD < 1279321065 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: true, but thats a normative map, not an actual one < 1279321070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how they are actually moving, but it's pretty not-matching-proper-technique. < 1279321079 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Explain my adoption of typing as a natural language. < 1279321096 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: what do you mean your adoption of typing as a natural language? < 1279321102 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Yeah, but people try enforcing the norm for some reason. < 1279321113 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yeah, well, people are stupid < 1279321118 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are. < 1279321129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the QWERTY keyboard is poorly designed. < 1279321136 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why oh why must my pinkies move so much? < 1279321146 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Couldn't we make a keyboard layout where they do nothing at all? < 1279321170 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I started typing minimally at age 3; but only really two to three years after that. My "vocabulary" of typing moves, speed and lack of errors has increased steadily since then, and is now coming to a plateau. I can use odd keyboards like the iPhone at very high speeds for those devices with quite few errors. My typing style is quite erratic and unique; I doubt many others have learned to type "naturally" without any guidance. < 1279321188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: All this seems to match up with regular language development via exposure, even the timing, taking age 3 as "age 0". < 1279321241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i learned to type without guidance! :D < 1279321257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but age 3 is already quite late for language uptake < 1279321262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: but at such an early age? in such an erratic way? with such perfect timing (2-3 years) of language development? < 1279321264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said 2-3 years < 1279321267 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :treat age 3 as age 0 < 1279321267 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279321277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two years after i started typing, before i didn't do much at all < 1279321280 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of thing < 1279321281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION couldn't speak at all until age 4. Whaddya think of that, augur? < 1279321287 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for whether or not its remotely like natural language, we'd need a better study. its hard to know. < 1279321290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: He thinks you're autistic, which is logical. < 1279321290 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i think nothing of it! < 1279321293 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: QWERTY is designed well. Its design goal was to slow down typists, because the earliest typewriters would jam if they typed too fast. < 1279321299 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Alas. < 1279321304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: we know. < 1279321305 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: What's this about vaginas? < 1279321312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's piss-poor design. < 1279321314 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: some boys have them < 1279321329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Some evidence against my having autism: I had a large vocabulary at age 2. < 1279321341 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: X-Ray Delta. < 1279321349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hooray, lack of developmental delays. < 1279321366 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It met its design goal, did it not? < 1279321370 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, but you get better logical reasoning skills and less emotional crap. < 1279321377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's a stupid design goal. < 1279321384 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Cheers. < 1279321391 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's different from a poor design. < 1279321412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Having a stupid design goal makes for a poor design regardless of how well your goal was met. < 1279321644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, besides being a slow typist, did I also mention I am a terrible engineer? < 1279321671 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1279321889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Good typing makes up for poor engineering donchano. < 1279321924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: In a nutshell, you have explained modern education. < 1279321939 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wins a nutshell! < 1279322127 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Our disagreement about Ernestine is largely unfounded. Whether a device "has its own Ernestine", or whether there is but one Ernestine and it is customizing its responses based on what device is talking to it, is inconsequential from the point of view of the device. < 1279322485 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/is talking to/it is talking to/ < 1279322487 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey> pikhq: QWERTY is designed well. Its design goal was to slow down typists, because the earliest typewriters would jam if they typed too fast. <- common misconception < 1279322507 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: Aren't you a bot? Or is that a common misconception too? < 1279322510 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was actually designed to avoid consecutive keystrokes that would trigger levers next to each other < 1279322529 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i am just a very skilled chatbot! < 1279322531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: And what would happen if you triggered levers next to each other? < 1279322532 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279322538 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: My idea was there is a proxy between the Ernestine and the programs, so additional proxies can be added so whenever any program accesses 0 there can be a proxy if there is one it will pass to that one and then proxy more < 1279322538 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they jam < 1279322561 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is it wasn't made to "slow you down" to prevent jams, it was made to make jams less probable < 1279322629 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: No design for a keyboard can change the probability of me having to type "ly". < 1279322672 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have idea about how 'patamagic can work in D&D: 'Patamagic feats can be taken any time you can take metamagic feats. 'Patamagic feats have a spell slot level which they take up. Prepared casters must spontaneously apply 'patamagic to the metamagic of a prepared spell (and select a slot of the 'patamagic's level or higher to lose at that time). Spontaneous casters must prepare 'patamagic to certain metamagic feats (and lose the slots at the be < 1279322716 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: A proxy is one completely valid way of looking at it, but the important thing is that Ernestine is in control of the proxy, not the device. < 1279322717 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: what qwerty does is make the physical locations of "ly" correspond to typewriter arms that aren't next to each othe < 1279322726 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probability of jams != probability of typing two characters < 1279322744 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the probability of typing two characters that are adjascent arms < 1279322754 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in rapid succession < 1279322767 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h68.11.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279322804 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: But why not just change the letters that are imprinted on each arm? < 1279322840 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the position of the keys on the typewriter directly corresponded to the arms < 1279322851 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: OK. < 1279322852 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you want to press the key labeled "F" and have it trigger the arm labeled "Q" < 1279322855 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm not sure why you would want to do that < 1279322866 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was a mechanical device, after all < 1279322871 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the key presses directly moved the arms < 1279322872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1279322908 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: Indeed, I think I see what you're saying. I will explain it in a more refined fashion, next time it comes up. < 1279322910 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you understand this idea of 'patamagic? < 1279322918 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, sure, whatever < 1279322933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'pata'pata < 1279322940 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just find it interesting that the most common argument when people talk about dvorak and qwerty is speed < 1279322941 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Patapsionics can be similar < 1279322962 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the way it is presented is usually inaccurate, on both sides < 1279323002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :myndzi: It was designed to minimize the occurrence of jams, at any rate, and that is, on a larger scale, partly about speed (because it takes you time to unjam the thing...) < 1279323010 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1279323014 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you've got me there ;) < 1279323027 0 :benuphoenix!~benuphoen@ool-182e6881.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279323029 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :behold < 1279323031 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not just speed because I imagine it would also damage the damn thing and reduce its lifespan :) < 1279323033 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_█_ < 1279323033 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ಠ‿ರೃ < 1279323034 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ¯|¯⌠ < 1279323034 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :  |\| < 1279323042 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, now it looks messed up, booo < 1279323051 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :silly random fonts being used for font linking < 1279323056 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have some of those characters :/ < 1279323068 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a smiley with a tophat monocle and cane ;D < 1279323085 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw someone do the smiley so i had to add a body for him too :P < 1279323094 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't play nice with the others though < 1279323218 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is +[] the shortest brainfuck infinite loop? < 1279323230 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1279323317 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to learn brainfuck < 1279323318 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279323331 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :benuphoenix: Quite simple. :) < 1279323416 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@CPE001b115db0ae-CM0018c0c24ffc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279323553 0 :benuphoenix!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1279323704 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still nobody answered my questions about Enhanced CWEB before. Do you have any suggestions having to do with the metamacro processor? Would you use Enhanced CWEB for anything? < 1279323729 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't seem to be the literate programming kind of guy. < 1279323738 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I think better in code after all. < 1279323742 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Enhanced CWEB does other things as well. < 1279323756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything other than macros? < 1279323762 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: needs a 'patamacro processor ;) < 1279323779 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are not required to provide as much documentation as CWEB itself does, but you can. < 1279323829 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does do some things other than macros. You can also write codes in different orders, make printouts (whether or not it has much extra documentation), and a few more things. The metamacros feature is powerful for some things, too. < 1279323838 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My literate programming experience begins and ends with Literate Haskell. < 1279323841 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition, once I add the makefile mode it will be more useful. < 1279323847 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not ends. < 1279323920 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of its features is the change-file feature. < 1279324033 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1279324212 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1279324398 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So, Robin is now less vapourwarish than aliseOS. < 1279324406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has proper names for things and a rudimentary plan. < 1279324409 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems I'd better catch up. < 1279324420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, aliseOS is much more... everythingy. < 1279324494 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sad Google have acquired ITA. < 1279324505 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An innovative, Lisp-using company of smart people. Now it'll be C++. < 1279324529 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Go < 1279324549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not Go. Go is interesting and quite well-designed, but not tested extensively -- Google won't use it. < 1279324560 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google give lip service to it but really it's From The People Who Brought You Plan 9. < 1279324564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20% time project. etc. < 1279324585 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Heh. (re: Go.) < 1279324602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Not a high opinion of Go? < 1279324613 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit it's flawed. But it's interesting, nonetheless. < 1279324644 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I'm not personally sure what to make of it yet, but spot on about how Google looks at it. < 1279324650 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1279324668 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The compiler, if nothing else, is a beautiful piece of Ken Thompson engineering.