←2010-07-16 2010-07-17 2010-07-18→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:01:34 <alise> cpressey: So... can I blab about aliseOS to you, just to bounce ideas off and to try and crystalise the ideas in my head?
00:01:48 <cpressey> alise: Robin is still pretty darn vapourwareish, though -- especially if you take into consideration the amount of time I have available to spend on it.
00:01:51 <cpressey> alise: By all means, do.
00:03:26 <alise> cpressey: So. I'm tired of language/OS distinctions.
00:03:28 <alise> Top-level view:
00:03:41 <alise> Globalised, decentralised, encrypted net of objects.
00:03:50 <alise> Disk caches this; specifically the parts you care about, mostly your stuff and other people's stuff you use.
00:03:53 <alise> RAM caches disk.
00:04:08 <alise> Main idea is this: Everything is a "process"/"object"/"agent" -- same thing.
00:04:22 <cpressey> Yeah, with you so far.
00:04:29 <alise> They are flat values in stasis with procedures; they are living objects responding to messages like Erlang servers. They do both jobs.
00:05:36 <alise> These objects ...
00:05:43 <alise> Hardware is an object.
00:05:50 <alise> "2" is an object.
00:05:59 <alise> The string "2" is an object.
00:06:08 <alise> The rich text document containing the default-formatted "2" is an object.
00:06:15 <alise> What in Unix would be a running process, is an object.
00:06:21 <alise> Services are objects.
00:06:31 <alise> Every object has its namespace -- with local and "global" variables.
00:06:40 <alise> Security is simple: Objects cannot access other objects that would let them do naughty things.
00:07:06 <alise> All objects are scheduled: this means that even an essay you wrote ten years ago is being "scheduled", though of course since it's not being called upon to do anything it will never actually be scheduled.
00:07:12 <alise> Indeed.
00:07:17 <alise> cpressey: Any questions?
00:07:54 <cpressey> What distinguishes between an object which is "flat" and one which is "living"? Under what conditions (if any) can an object transition from one to the other?
00:08:10 <cpressey> That, to me, is one of the harder bits
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00:08:18 <alise> Nothing. Nothing at all.
00:08:21 <alise> They are the same.
00:08:33 <alise> An object gets scheduled to run some code if some other object has called upon it; sent it a message.
00:08:35 <cpressey> Just the "scheduled" part, then? OK.
00:08:51 <alise> This way we get the "synchronous" OOP stuff blended with the "asynchronous" process stuff.
00:09:10 <alise> Because even if one method in an object -- one processing of a message -- is waiting for another object, the rest of its responders still run.
00:09:24 <cpressey> Interesting.
00:11:31 <cpressey> alise: OK, another question. Do you still hate files? :)
00:11:42 <alise> cpressey: Do you?
00:11:54 <cpressey> alise: Not sure. I hate parts of them, I think.
00:12:01 <alise> I still do. Mostly.
00:13:21 <cpressey> I think I like that your objects are (and I'm using this quite loosely) "Platonic" in the sense that they don't really exist anywhere, they're just cached (on disks and/or ram) and could be cached multiple places.
00:13:41 <cpressey> I imagine you deal with discrepancy with hashes of some kind...
00:13:48 <alise> Yes. Encryption ensures that nobody can peek at your process, etc.
00:13:56 <alise> I'm fuzzy on the global decentralised object net atm.
00:14:01 <alise> It's hard, that bit.
00:16:11 <cpressey> I don't think I can get rid of key->value storage, conceptually, in my head, and a filesystem is basically such a thing where keys look like "/home/cpressey/foo.txt" and values look like octet-strings. But it should be broken down to that point, and rebuilt. There is too much baggage...
00:16:39 <alise> cpressey: key->value storage: also known as "variables"
00:17:02 <alise> this is why global variables suck; everything should be relative, this provides security by not providing certain components to an object when you initialise it
00:17:11 <cpressey> Or "contexts" to some folks.
00:17:20 <alise> Or "object slots". etc.
00:18:36 <cpressey> What provides security, to me, is some notion of sandboxing. But that could take many forms, only one of which is lying to your process about what is "actually global".
00:18:53 <alise> http://xach.livejournal.com/257931.html ;; Naggum's library for sale
00:19:15 <alise> cpressey: sandboxing -- putting things in a place where they can't access bits of the outer system that they could harm
00:19:28 <alise> how can we achieve this? If there are no global variables and contexts are always passed in,
00:19:37 <alise> then we can simply give it a context with only those components we want it to be able to use
00:19:39 <alise> Tada: sandboxed
00:19:41 <alise> *sandboxed.
00:20:11 <cpressey> In a sense, yes. I'm looking at it from a different angle.
00:20:28 <alise> My design strategy is "ruthlessly combine everything".
00:20:48 <cpressey> If everything communicates via messages and we, like the State Police, open up and perhaps alter everyone's mail...
00:22:41 <alise> I guess I'm more a fan of libertarian computing. :-)
00:24:14 <cpressey> Erm, well the political analogy is a bad one.
00:26:05 <cpressey> But, uh. Insofar as it works, I *do* want something like totalitarian control over what processes on my hardware can and can't do.
00:26:17 <alise> True.
00:26:29 <alise> Of course, this is all very well: the hard part is providing a UI.
00:26:34 <alise> How, exactly, do you do permissions seamlessly?
00:26:37 <alise> How do you interact with an object?
00:26:38 <alise> etc.
00:26:38 <cpressey> I haven't really thought about networked or distributed issues at all.
00:27:23 <cpressey> So far, I have only a REPL, which exposes a language, which can send messages. That's the very start.
00:27:45 <cpressey> Eventually, you need, or at least really want, something much better.
00:28:00 <cpressey> I haven't got to that point in thinking either.
00:28:06 <cpressey> Well, no. I did, once, a long time ago.
00:28:15 <cpressey> But I was younger and stupider then.
00:28:23 <cpressey> It was kind of Mac-like.
00:28:32 <cpressey> But far more orthogonal.
00:29:24 <cpressey> Everything was a "unit" and could contain subunits, and you could browse through the hierarchy with a Finder-like UI, opening each up in turn... but this is very different.
00:29:53 <cpressey> My current thoughts are not so hierarchical.
00:30:56 <alise> I think aliseOS is impossible. But given enough time you can approximate it to any desired accuracy... it's a computable real.
00:31:23 <cpressey> Sure, to some degree, you can describe a lot of idealistic projects like that. The reality will never quite match the vision.
00:32:08 <cpressey> Smalltalk, for all its crazy syntax that I don't like, is a pretty good approximation of what's in my head, as were the Lisp machines.
00:32:26 <alise> Smalltalk's syntax isn't that esoteric.
00:32:30 <alise> Its usage can be.
00:32:38 <alise> The Lisp machines had proper filesystems. Unfortunately.
00:32:43 <cpressey> It's mainly that I don't like it :/
00:33:07 <alise> You know, I never had you penned as the pipe-dream visionary type :P
00:33:18 <cpressey> It's about synergy, to some degree... some aspects they got, others, they didn't.
00:33:30 <cpressey> alise: I'm not, really. I'm the hard-to-enterain type.
00:33:37 <cpressey> So I come up with things to entertain myself.
00:33:53 <cpressey> *entertain, 2 lines back, of course.
00:34:46 <cpressey> Designing "impossible" languages manages to entertain me where other things fall short. Designing "perfect" operating systems, sometimes entertains me too.
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00:35:45 <cpressey> Moreso since you started talking about aliseOS, and since I seem to be cooling off on the esolang design front somewhat.
00:36:01 <alise> You can't give up on esolangs now!
00:36:09 <alise> You're, like, a machine. Of esolangity.
00:36:18 <cpressey> But it's probably not driven by the same things that motivate you.
00:36:27 <cpressey> Don't worry, I'm not.
00:36:41 <cpressey> They just take a long time to ripen now :)
00:36:45 <alise> Oh, no mistake, I do this for fun too. I'd love to throw out all computers and just get aliseEverything ones, but I know that will never happen.
00:37:03 <alise> And really, I'm fine spending tons of time on something that nobody will ever really use, as long as I learn something and achieve something interesting.
00:37:09 <alise> That's esolangs really, isn't it?
00:37:16 <cpressey> Cool. A good attitude. Yes.
00:37:25 <alise> cpressey: You stopped making silly ones and started delving into heavy CS, that's why :-)
00:37:37 <alise> Well, I guess some mathematics recently what with Burro.
00:37:49 <cpressey> Agreed, a bit heavier on that front now.
00:39:17 <cpressey> Almost went down the academic path, but not being accepted into grad school anywhere kind of put the brakes on that.
00:39:19 <alise> zzo38 and Gerson Kerz are definitely the masters of the pointless language.
00:39:45 <cpressey> Shoot, I had forgotten about Gerson. Yes. Oh my.
00:40:21 <alise> Do you regret remembering him? XD
00:40:36 <cpressey> No, not at all. I mean, ... UNBABTIZED!
00:40:55 <alise> *Gerson Kurz
00:41:58 <cpressey> If programming languages were painting, Gerson and zzo38 would be master surrealists.
00:42:35 <alise> What would oklopol be?
00:43:02 <cpressey> What has oklopol done? I haven't seem him around much lately, he mainly seems to know far more about mathematics than me.
00:43:41 <cheater99> this thunderstorm is extremely loud
00:43:54 <cheater99> and... doesn't sound like a thunderstorm at all
00:44:27 <cheater99> alise
00:44:42 <cheater99> can this be the sound of the langoliers?
00:44:54 <alise> cheater99: yes.
00:45:04 <cheater99> wtf do we do now
00:45:16 <alise> cpressey: he's so far in academia that his language releases are very few
00:45:25 <cpressey> http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/
00:45:27 <alise> cpressey: but they are always works of purist art
00:45:33 <alise> yeah that
00:45:33 <cpressey> took me a while to find that
00:45:42 <alise> out of that coding section, everything after thue is his languages
00:45:48 <alise> oh it's missing the latest one there
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00:46:24 <alise> which isn't in the language list...
00:47:13 <cpressey> Ah, Clue is his, ain't it.
00:47:31 <alise> cpressey: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Toi
00:47:34 <alise> is his most recent lang
00:48:18 <AnMaster> I assume you know about clang's wonderfully helpful diagnostics?
00:48:21 <AnMaster> well, Not always:
00:48:26 <AnMaster> alib/lex.c:380:1: warning: control may reach end of non-void function [-Wreturn-type]
00:48:26 <AnMaster> }
00:48:26 <AnMaster> ^
00:48:37 <AnMaster> like, which path. Would have been way more helpful
00:50:00 <AnMaster> night
00:53:45 <cheater99> alise
00:53:47 <cpressey> alise: i dunno... I think oklopol is possibly one of the esolangers who, if esolangs are art (which they are), is inventing his own movement ;)
00:53:49 <cheater99> i'm scared of the thunder
00:53:51 <cheater99> hold me
00:54:01 <cpressey> Aaaand... I'm outta here.
00:54:10 <alise> cpressey: bye
00:54:18 <alise> i think oklopol like
00:55:05 <cpressey> Take care alise
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01:10:23 <alise> ABCDEFG, QQQQQQQ.
01:14:41 <cheater99> sup alise :|
01:14:58 <alise> soup
01:15:00 <alise> soup alise
01:18:11 * cheater99 covers alise in soup.
01:18:23 <alise> No.
01:18:42 <cheater99> oh
01:18:43 <cheater99> sorry :|
01:18:48 * cheater99 licks the soup off alise.
01:19:21 <alise> pikhq: Tiny Core Linux, SliTaz, Puppy Linux 4. Which should I try next?
01:20:54 <cheater99> pls don't slit
01:21:08 <cheater99> omg
01:21:20 <cheater99> this thunder was so hard the window vibrated
01:23:47 <pikhq> alise: Lorem Ipsix.
01:23:56 <alise> pikhq: :|
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01:27:40 <cheater99> omfg
01:27:48 <cheater99> alise: do you watch the sara silverman show?
01:28:45 <Sgeo> On the plus side, I did not need to reinstall Windows
01:29:03 <Sgeo> On the minus side, my a/v may be disabled, and I may have undone some system updates
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01:29:34 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98Np9hNSIWo
01:31:30 <cheater99> omfg so good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRIfGKrY0vE&feature=related
01:34:17 <alise> pikhq: so not helpful :P
01:38:12 <Sgeo> Hm, I may end up installing VS2010
01:46:31 * Sgeo blinks a few times
01:46:38 <Sgeo> Help and Support is completely broken for me
01:47:43 <zzo38> Pick one by the dice if nobody else knows
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01:55:17 <alise> Sgeo: no loss
01:56:50 <Sgeo> alise, it means I can't open Remote Assistance invitations
01:57:12 <alise> Sgeo: no loss
01:57:17 <Sgeo> All these random things broken, I should do a system restore
01:57:28 <zzo38> Now I can have two versions of ARGOPT, standard-edition and web-edition. Web-edition also includes formatting man pages and a few other additional features over standard-edition.
01:57:30 <Gregor> Everyone remember "Check Out My Sweet Shirt, And Then Talk To Me Because I'm Awesome Day", and keep it holy.
01:57:56 <zzo38> Gregor: What kind of day is that?
01:58:04 <Sgeo> VS2008 is broken, and that _is_ a loss to me
01:58:15 <zzo38> And also make CSPIDER (the third program after CTANGLE and CWEAVE)
02:02:51 <alise> Sgeo: ok
02:02:55 <alise> GreaseMonkey: ok
02:02:57 <alise> GreaseMonkey:
02:03:02 <alise> Gregor: 9i
02:03:04 <alise> fg
02:03:20 <alise> Gregor: ok
02:03:33 <olsner> Sgeo: you should reinstall
02:03:39 <Sgeo> olsner, no thanks
02:03:45 <Sgeo> Oh, VS?
02:04:02 <Sgeo> I might install 2010\
02:04:12 <olsner> everything, probably switch OS too while you're at it
02:04:35 <Sgeo> I have no time this month
02:05:41 <olsner> bah, that means nothing :P you should still do what you should do
02:06:40 <cheater99> zzo38: what do u use them for?
02:07:57 <cheater99> oh it's that literal programming stuff
02:12:51 <cheater99> i wonder if you can use ctangle with the apple api
02:12:56 <cheater99> or if that's 'code generation'
02:12:59 <cheater99> :|
02:13:42 <alise> i'm tired~
02:16:19 <Sgeo> How do I get Windows File Protection to SHUT THE FUCK UP about inserting a "CD2"?
02:19:01 <alise> stop using windows?
02:19:57 <zzo38> cheater99: Maybe you can use CWEB with the Apple API, I don't know, because I don't know about the Apple API.
02:20:22 <cheater99> they have this shit new thing about not using code generation tools.
02:20:23 <zzo38> Perhaps Enhanced CWEB might be able to be used even if standard CWEB isn't, because Enhanced CWEB has some extra features
02:20:25 <Sgeo> Dear Android: Please stop being prone to random freezes
02:20:43 <cheater99> you use windows on an android?
02:20:48 <cheater99> no surprise it doesn't work that well
02:21:05 <zzo38> Does "code generation tools" include CHAOSPP and ORDERPP?
02:22:04 <zzo38> cheater99: What thing? Are you refering to the iPhone?
02:22:17 <cheater99> yes
02:22:26 <zzo38> CWEB won't work with Objective C anyways, as far as I know
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02:24:43 <zzo38> And what about code-generation tools do they not want?
02:25:32 <zzo38> My idea, is, don't use official development for iPhone (and App Store). If you need to write software for iPhone at all, you can jailbreak it. But better, don't use iPhone at all.
02:26:17 <zzo38> Use Android or whatever else
02:26:31 <zzo38> And then you don't have to worry about all the confusing Apple Developer programs and stuff
02:26:44 <cheater99> you can use C too.
02:27:22 <zzo38> cheater99: If you use C it will work.
02:27:41 <alise> you can't use c for iphone afaik
02:27:45 <zzo38> If you are not allowed to use it for code generation, you can still have a separpate program that converts it to CWEB program to make a printout, if you want a printout for it.
02:27:48 <alise> unless you call the objc intrinsics yourself
02:28:16 <olsner> alise: sure you can write C, you just need to wrap it in objc
02:28:17 <zzo38> Although you will not be able to use a lot of the CWEB features if you do it this way
02:28:38 <alise> olsner: missing context
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02:28:54 <olsner> alise: ok
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02:36:56 <alise> Arcane Sentiment needs more posts.
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02:46:21 <alise> E
02:46:23 <alise> oops
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02:53:54 <cheater99> alise
02:53:56 <cheater99> what's crackin
02:54:14 <alise> crackinosity
02:54:21 <cheater99> heheh
02:54:34 <cheater99> alise do you have long hair?
02:55:18 <alise> very
02:55:23 <alise> why?
02:55:29 <cheater99> how do you keep it neat?
02:55:43 <alise> hard work and suffering
02:55:43 <cheater99> it's like ultra-difficult for me
02:55:46 <cheater99> really?
02:55:53 <cheater99> what do you do with it?
02:56:35 <alise> Comb it. Wash it.
02:56:53 <cheater99> i do that
02:57:03 <cheater99> i usually spend like 30 minutes a day washing it
02:57:17 <cheater99> but that's not good enough
02:57:20 <cheater99> it's still sorta bushy
02:58:01 <cheater99> how often do you cut it?
02:59:30 <cheater99> alise???
02:59:51 <alise> rarely
03:00:05 <alise> combing it is kinda the main thing :P I might just be lucky
03:00:10 <alise> you probably just have crappy hair ha ha
03:02:40 <cheater99> well i can get it neat with some conditioner etc
03:02:41 <cheater99> but like
03:02:55 <cheater99> by the end of the day it's like hay
03:02:55 <cheater99> :<
03:04:31 <alise> so comb it all the time
03:05:34 <cheater99> yeah i do
03:05:38 <cheater99> but that's not about that
03:05:45 <cheater99> it's just that the hair breaks
03:05:49 <cheater99> and there's like
03:06:03 <cheater99> lots of hairs shorter than the rest
03:06:05 <cheater99> know what i mean??
03:06:20 <cheater99> how long is your hair anyways?
03:06:27 <cheater99> show us a photo or something
03:06:40 <cheater99> cpressey wants to see
03:14:37 <alise> no, cpressey doesn't.
03:22:51 <cheater99> don't be silly
03:22:53 <cheater99> post a pic
03:23:12 <cheater99> alise: do you straighten your hair?
03:23:22 <alise> it stays straight by itself.
03:23:31 <cheater99> like totally?
03:23:35 <cheater99> not even a slight wave?
03:23:45 <alise> indeed
03:24:39 <cheater99> that's nice
03:24:42 <cheater99> what color are they?
03:25:26 <alise> entering creepy territory
03:25:33 <cheater99> ?
03:25:40 <cheater99> mine are brown
03:25:53 <cheater99> what's creepy about hair color?
03:27:10 <cheater99> you totally shouldn't be ashamed of your hair alise.
03:29:40 * cheater99 wonders why alise has clammed up.
03:35:12 <alise> Goodnight.
03:35:28 <alise> cheater99: very dark brown, fwiw (basically black if you're retarded)
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03:36:21 <cheater99> oh otay
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04:10:42 * pikhq can has an awesomely typeset copy of The Time Machine.
04:10:43 <pikhq> :D
04:12:25 <cheater99> sweet
04:12:31 <cheater99> what year is it from?
04:14:46 <pikhq> 2010. Typeset by pikhq. Not printed as of yet.
04:15:10 <cheater99> awww
04:16:07 <pikhq> Still. Proper typesetting is glee.
04:18:44 <cheater99> yeah that's what i meant with aww
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04:26:49 <Sgeo> Price people are suggesting on some freelance site for something to convert EXIT to MapInfo and ESRI: $1500
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04:40:31 <cheater99> isn't that like a huge fucking amount of work?
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04:50:25 <leBMD> Hey guys, I'm working on my own language, and I was wondering if you could offer some feedback.
04:50:38 <pikhq> Probably.
04:51:15 <leBMD> ok, here are my specifications: http://txtb.in/fQw
04:53:34 * oerjan detects an absence of flow control
04:53:59 <oerjan> also, does the 1 command take the value as a following argument after the 0?
04:54:33 <leBMD> the one command just adds a 1 to the stack.
04:54:39 <oerjan> oh.
04:55:40 <Sgeo> cheater99, how?
04:55:46 <leBMD> as for flow control, I never really thought to add loops
04:55:50 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm too oblivious to the formats?
04:55:56 <leBMD> maybe I should do that..
04:56:04 <cheater99> well if you think you'll make it in 3 days
04:56:05 <cheater99> go for it
04:56:20 <oerjan> leBMD: well currently it's basically little more than a four-functional calculator.
04:56:29 <oerjan> *four-function
04:56:31 <leBMD> what would you reccomend for flow control?
04:56:43 <leBMD> ooh! I've got it!
04:56:53 <leBMD> maybe I could have commands of 0's as well!
04:57:06 <leBMD> revision-time is a go-go.
05:01:31 <leBMD> http://txtb.in/fQx
05:01:45 <leBMD> I've edited it a good bit, and now it has loop commands
05:04:22 <oerjan> i detect that there is no way to go back to _before_ the previous loop tag.
05:05:24 <oerjan> also it looks difficult to get to elements deep in the stack without deleting information
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05:05:49 <leBMD> 00000 - like 000, but takes the stack value and goes that many tags backward.
05:06:21 <leBMD> I'm basing this a lot on the way Piet and Befunge handle the stack.
05:08:20 <zzo38> Once I told someone that if I rewrite MegaZeux using Enhanced CWEB, I would remove online documentation, in favor of printed documentation. Someone thought that means Enhanced CWEB can't do online documentation and therefore it is worthless.
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05:10:10 <leBMD> wow.
05:11:04 <oerjan> there's also the underload way, although that requires essentially putting code on the stack. in any case your stack commands are not enough to manipulate data enough for arbitrary programming, i think
05:11:26 <oerjan> oh and the glass way, which is just crazy :D
05:14:34 <leBMD> I dunno about "not enough for arbitrary programming." I mean, Befunge -93 and Piet as it is both run on a very similar system of memory management. I could add file i/o, I've just been too lazy to think of creative ways to do that.
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05:16:05 <oerjan> leBMD: i am not saying befunge's stack isn't powerful, i am saying you don't have enough of befunge's commands to get that full power
05:16:23 <leBMD> What would you reccomned adding?
05:16:49 <oerjan> a swap command is obvious, and for full power you'd want a deep rotation command
05:17:36 <oerjan> mind you i don't quite remember how much befunge-93 has, does it have deep rotation?
05:18:09 <oerjan> befunge's way is essentially the forth way, i think
05:19:09 <leBMD> befunge-93's way of using the stack was "hey, son, you should be happy with access to only the top two stack values at any given time *pimpslap*"
05:19:14 <oerjan> while a drop command would be convenient, you already _do_ have enough to simulate it
05:19:19 <oerjan> oh.
05:19:49 <oerjan> in that case i would think befunge-93 depended on having put and get to the memory as well
05:20:44 <oerjan> although however, two values _is_ enough to prove turing-completeness via a minsky machine, assuming bignums
05:21:07 <oerjan> in any case you still need swap to get to more than one value :)
05:22:19 <oerjan> underload also has only top two values manipulation _but_ the way it can incorporate values into code on the fly allows it to get around that. suitably awkwardly.
05:25:24 <ais523> oerjan: you can think of it as stack elements containing other stack elements
05:25:35 <oerjan> well that too
05:25:50 <oerjan> however some of those are code, anyhow
05:25:59 <oerjan> and need to be
05:26:40 <oerjan> ^ul (a)(b)(c)a~a~*~S^~SS
05:26:40 <fungot> abc
05:27:39 <oerjan> that underload program gets to the (a) on the bottom first by wrapping (b) and (c) up into a program to put them back on the stack after we've handled (a)
05:28:22 <oerjan> of course the "program to put them back on the stack" looks like ((b)(c))
05:28:44 <leBMD> well, I gotta go get some sleep. Seeya!
05:28:48 <oerjan> bye
05:28:50 <leBMD> thanks for the advice, btw. :)
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05:39:18 <ais523> oerjan: Joy's "dip" operator is implemented in underload as ~a*^
05:39:26 <ais523> * "dip" combinator
05:39:34 <ais523> it's the mechanism I normally use to access lower stack entries
05:40:02 <ais523> e.g. "swap second and third" is "[swap] dip" in Joy or (~)~a*^ in Underload
05:40:56 <ais523> basically, you're using two stacks, the data stack and the call stack
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05:46:55 <zzo38> Forth also uses (at least) two stacks
05:47:24 <SevenInchBread> ...huh, I hate to ghost myself.
05:47:58 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
05:48:04 <CakeProphet> ...I wonder why my nick was still in use.
05:48:21 <CakeProphet> do I have an impersonator? o_o
05:52:44 <zzo38> I don't know why
05:53:05 <zzo38> I think some people impersonated me before too (but not on Freenode)
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06:21:24 <CakeProphet> I think I just trolled Haskell
06:21:30 <CakeProphet> #haskell, that is
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08:42:59 <cheater99> i hate the interntet
08:43:05 <cheater99> internet too.
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11:43:45 <zzo38> I changed the string formatting a bit
11:44:07 <zzo38> You can watch it at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/cwebstringformat.png
11:44:44 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this new formatting?
11:48:42 <SevenInc1Bread> unknown
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12:17:56 <zzo38> Go ask your mother.
12:23:58 <zzo38> Do not cook the radio while it is switched off.
12:25:44 <zzo38> Do not brag the control.
12:26:16 <zzo38> Don't squish spiders in the bathtub. Use a sink!
12:26:19 <zzo38> Don't touch spiders in a sink. Use a bathtub!
12:26:50 <zzo38> When my desk is clean and organized, I can't find anything.
12:27:35 <zzo38> True wisdom does not consist of beans.
12:28:54 <zzo38> Free will is caused by the Heizenberg Uncertainty Principle.
12:30:07 <zzo38> Nobody can or should be sane.
12:30:25 <zzo38> Hang yourself by the ropes.
12:33:22 <zzo38> Don't apply hairspray if there are cockroaches nearby.
12:34:00 <zzo38> Which ones are good and which ones are doubleplusungood?
12:36:22 <zzo38> Religion is not the opium of the people. Opium is.
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14:58:15 <alise> Hi,
14:58:17 <alise> *Hi.
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15:28:11 <alise> "Atheists Use Blow-Dryers to De-Baptize" -- ABC News
15:29:18 <alise> "Cocoa futures for July delivery jumped 1.5pc on the Liffe exchange to more than £2,588 this week"
15:29:30 <alise> someone just bought 241,000 tonnes of cocoa beans
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16:07:47 <alise> hi oerjan
16:10:06 <alise> Whew, it is hot in here.
16:12:58 <alise> pikhq: Ping.
16:13:44 <pikhq> Gnip.
16:14:04 <fizzie> It has been absurdly hot in here for the week.
16:16:11 <alise> pikhq: Is there a way to boot Linux from inside Linux, having the new Linux replace the old Linux, but providing ... something to the inner Linux? OK, I'll be more precise.
16:16:33 <alise> Tiny Core Linux only supports Ethernet by default. ATM, I only have a WiFi connection. Can I boot Tiny Core Linux natively but somehow bootstrap it so that its eth0 is actually WiFi?
16:16:41 <alise> I imagine the answer is "no" and I should use a VM, but that's so dull.
16:17:30 <pikhq> alise: That's the kexec system call.
16:17:52 <alise> pikhq: But can it make everything else natively Tiny Core, and ONLY override eth0?
16:18:03 <alise> Just ... like, boot it, but fake one piece of hardware somehow.
16:18:18 <pikhq> ... Probably not.
16:18:29 <fizzie> I don't think kexec can fake anything; it just boots a new kernel, and the new kernel has the (unenviable) task of making any sense out of the hardware.
16:18:44 <pikhq> kexec is booting without going through the BIOS, really.
16:18:47 <alise> :(
16:18:54 <alise> But I want to try TCL natively!
16:20:51 <oerjan> alise: heat wave here too. of course this is by norwegian standards, so you others probably wouldn't even notice :D
16:21:07 <fizzie> Perhaps you just should hack it to work with wifi.
16:21:34 <oerjan> (26 celsius was the forecast)
16:22:02 * oerjan doesn't actually have an outdoor thermometer
16:22:09 <fizzie> +30 °C here today, according to them forecasts.
16:22:13 <pikhq> oerjan: 26 celsius? That's... considered hot?
16:22:43 <pikhq> It's 35 currently. And this is not an unusual temperature.
16:23:11 <oerjan> well 30 is considered very hot. 35 i think may never actually have been measured in norway
16:23:20 <fizzie> +26 would be considered pretty warm in Finland too.
16:23:45 <pikhq> I wish it were only 26 here.
16:23:50 <fizzie> Also, just this week they measured the highest temperature in Finland since the 1930s; I think it was +34.2 or some-such.
16:24:36 <fizzie> "The highest summer temperatures in the Finnish interior are from 32°C to 35°C. Near the sea and in the islands, temperatures over 30°C are extremely rare; the highest temperature ever recorded in Helsinki is 31.6°C. The highest temperature ever recorded is from July 9, 1914, when 35°C was exceeded in several places (the maximum being 35.9°C in Turku)."
16:24:41 <fizzie> (From the local meteorological institute.)
16:26:10 <fizzie> Heh, the meteorological institute has their own, combined Twitter account. How 2.0 of them.
16:28:19 <pikhq> Darned Scandinavians, with your not-flesh-melting temperatures.
16:29:23 <alise> pikhq: it's like 23 here or sth
16:29:26 <alise> but i hate heat
16:29:29 <alise> oerjan: 26 ouch
16:29:32 <alise> way too hot :D
16:29:39 <alise> i'm totally designed for svalbard
16:29:40 <pikhq> alise: Comfy.
16:29:46 <alise> pikhq: not without breeze
16:29:51 <alise> breeze is mandatory at all times
16:29:55 <oerjan> heh i guess britain has even less really hot weather, then
16:30:03 <alise> oerjan: oh we get 26 often enough
16:30:07 <alise> it's just awful
16:30:44 <oerjan> pikhq: on the flip side this means we generally don't have any air condition, so the outside temperature eventually creeps in if long enough
16:31:27 <oerjan> *lasting long
16:31:39 <alise> oerjan: is norway usually nice and cold
16:31:42 <alise> erm
16:31:43 <alise> stupid question
16:31:45 <alise> of course it is :D
16:31:51 <alise> ok does it normally have a breeze
16:31:56 <alise> if so see you in a minute brb plane
16:32:03 <oerjan> it's supposed to get down to 15-16 again tomorrow, last i checked
16:32:11 <oerjan> very unstable this summer
16:32:28 <alise> lovely
16:32:36 <alise> breezosity?
16:33:03 <oerjan> there's a bit of wind today, which helps
16:33:07 <fizzie> oerjan: Lunch-table-speculation has it that if you're looking for company, now is a good time to get air conditioning at home. One (female) colleague, for example, has spent last week sleeping at her "almost-boyfriend" mostly because of his air-conditioning thing.
16:33:20 <oerjan> heh
16:34:03 <alise> fizzie: Yeah, I'm sure that's the reason.
16:34:17 <fizzie> That's what she said, anyway!
16:35:00 <alise> So what temperature is it in Helsinki at the moment?
16:36:36 <fizzie> At 18:20 local time (so ~15 minutes ago) it was 25.6 °C.
16:37:21 <fizzie> Tomorrow's daily high has been forecasted to be 29. Phew.
16:38:00 <alise> fizzie: Ouch. But you're bordered with Russia, how do you get warmer weather than Norway? :-)
16:38:21 * alise watches The IT Crowd, wonders why 8+ doesn't exist. ...Or does it?
16:38:31 <fizzie> Hey, it's 33°C in Moscow right now.
16:38:40 <alise> fizzie: Wow.
16:38:47 <Ilari> alise: Farther from ocean.
16:38:53 <alise> Street Countdown. Good idea.
16:39:51 <alise> Ilari: Shut up you. You and your... your LOGIC.
16:41:40 <Ilari> alise: That nearer to ocean climate tends to be moist, relatively warm winters and relatively cool summers and farther inland climate tends to be dry, relatively cold winters and relatively warm summers is covered in basic geography lessions. :-)
16:42:00 <alise> I know.
16:42:06 <alise> I was playing on the Russia-is-cold stereotype.
16:42:08 <alise> So shush. :|
16:42:26 <pikhq> alise: Actually, it's the Siberia-is-mother-fucking-cold stereotype.
16:42:29 <pikhq> Which of course it is.
16:42:52 <pikhq> Russia's large. ;)
16:43:03 <oerjan> i think napoleon would disagree it's _just_ siberia. if he were alive, that is.
16:43:11 <alise> "Overnumerousness" is now a word.
16:43:20 <pikhq> oerjan: Winters, too.
16:43:34 <pikhq> They get cold winters.
16:50:16 <alise> And Freebase is usurped into Google.
16:50:21 <alise> I think Google are now officially evil.
16:50:33 <alise> They're basically buying everyone with anything to do with ... organising information.
16:51:19 <alise> So.
16:51:21 <alise> Yak Linux. Hmm.
16:54:42 <alise> ... /me tries to think of what to do first.
16:54:45 <alise> It's hard, organising this stuff!
16:55:24 <oerjan> well clearly you need to shave off all nonessentials
16:56:19 <alise> way ahead of you; the slogan is already "comes pre-shaven"
16:56:29 <oerjan> O KAY
16:56:39 <alise> what :(
16:56:55 <oerjan> ^ ACKNOWLEDGEMENT
16:57:47 <alise> oerjan: "O KAY" sounds sarcastic :P
16:58:28 <oerjan> can't it be self-ironical?
16:58:53 <alise> what
16:59:40 <oerjan> SHEESH
17:00:20 <alise> SHULTRY
17:00:46 <alise> on a moore and shultry taft'ernoone, agleisic Edwardson marted his fies.
17:01:27 <oerjan> i assume that is a quote from somewhere.
17:02:14 <alise> trattingly nobling his ardeous grats, he blopped his firnal harket firmly unto his vuletine.
17:02:16 <alise> oerjan: nope
17:03:54 <oerjan> ok just channeling vogons, then
17:03:58 <alise> "Oh, I am sick of the sorteous numblitudes; how I crope for nimely tokes," he ploted, markenly. He serfined the opacious roats, and dellired the blumptious cattafries.
17:05:08 <alise> On his tomely way, he gabunted, spotting a frolitous female, dressed in wodersome red; "good harpentime," he managed, before abuting to the ground.
17:06:06 <alise> "My dear, my dear, what rokenpokes you?" inquired the jonimilly lady, as she helped Edwardson to his feet. "My name is Marketrina; your company is tunastious."
17:06:46 <alise> "Why thank you, dear lady," replied Edwardson, now sarkly from his fall, "mine is Edwardson; a humble and furminstine name it is, but mine it is also."
17:08:15 <alise> "It's the most potaneous name I've heard all day," said Marketrina, "though it is also the first. May I consider your tressling lamenote, and gorminelly invite you to my sermibone home?"
17:08:58 <alise> Edwardson was ruvenised. "Yes, yes, of course, very dram of you, thank you good lady," he said.
17:09:26 <alise> oerjan: Have I finally gone completely insane?
17:10:00 <oerjan> not on that evidence
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17:19:18 * alise implements infinitely-long binary numbers in hs
17:19:23 <alise> data Num = Zero Num | One Num
17:19:24 <alise> reversed
17:19:40 <alise> say pos = fix Zero, and neg = fix One
17:19:55 <alise> then Zero $ One $ One $ pos = 0b110
17:20:11 <alise> and Zero $ One $ One $ pos = 0b...1111111110
17:20:15 <alise> er
17:20:18 <alise> and Zero $ One $ One $ neg = 0b...1111111110
17:20:21 <oerjan> aka 2-adic integers
17:20:25 <alise> well, yes
17:20:33 <alise> but it's just infinite-bit two's complement really
17:20:35 <alise> i.e. 2-adic integers
17:20:42 <alise> oerjan: i'm doing it for the purpose of lambda calculus though
17:20:48 <alise> I'm wondering how nice this representation will be
17:20:50 <alise> it's pure, certainly
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17:23:22 <alise> oerjan: say what's (x = Zero $ One $ x), p-adically?
17:23:28 <alise> i.e. ...0101010101010
17:28:01 <alise> oerjan: kinda confusing :-D
17:28:09 <alise> it's certainly not an integer though
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17:29:00 <alise> oerjan: oh it's some rational
17:29:00 <oerjan> indeed. -1/3, i think.
17:29:06 <alise> icic
17:29:15 <oerjan> or wait no
17:29:19 <alise> oerjan: so a 2-adic /integer/ is one reverse-ending in 0... or 1...
17:29:28 <alise> which in haskell is impossible to check, fun
17:29:49 <oerjan> 2*x + x + 1 = -1 => x = -2/3
17:29:50 <alise> oerjan: 2-adic integers are probably the easiest way to impl rationals though :D
17:29:52 <oerjan> missed the +1
17:29:59 <alise> since you just use binary addition/etc
17:30:01 <alise> *addition, etc.
17:30:56 <oerjan> no, you don't have division by 2, you need to allow finite number of digits after the point to get a field
17:31:11 <alise> darn :-)
17:31:18 <alise> yeah i forgot the 2-adics are fucked up.
17:31:26 <alise> still if you only use them for integers
17:31:28 <alise> pretty cool
17:31:51 <alise> i love the proof (from hakmem) that "algebra is 2's complement"
17:32:01 <alise> let A = ...111111_2
17:32:21 <alise> A + 1 = ...000000_2, therefore A = -1
17:32:28 <alise> a bit silly, but still
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17:34:23 <alise> oerjan: okay, now what's (reversed) 0101110010111011110001001101010111100110111101111... :D
17:34:24 <alise> i.e.
17:34:38 <alise> ...1111011110110011110101011001000111101110100111010
17:34:45 <alise> i.e. 2-adic champernowne
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17:36:26 <alise> hi jillsmitt
17:36:42 <jillsmitt> alise: hello
17:37:00 <oerjan> what the heck is that sequence
17:37:30 <alise> oerjan: champernowne in base n = naturals of base n concatenated after point
17:37:32 <alise> i.e.
17:37:35 <alise> base 10 champernowne =
17:37:44 <alise> 0.0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ...
17:37:53 <alise> 0.01234567891011 ...
17:37:58 <alise> mine was that for base 2 when reversed
17:38:04 <alise> (since we should start/"end" with 0, 1, 10, etc)
17:38:23 <oerjan> i think you are missing 1, then
17:38:26 <Gregor> Looks like prgmr will have free space again soon.
17:38:31 <alise> oh, sorry
17:38:33 <alise> it's actually 0.1234
17:38:41 <alise> Gregor: with ipv6?
17:39:01 <oerjan> in that case the first 0 should be a 1
17:39:02 <alise> oerjan: so yeah, what's ....001110110 in 2-adics, I wonder :-)
17:39:07 <alise> oerjan: no because we don't have points
17:39:10 <oerjan> (or last)
17:39:11 <alise> so the 0 has to be somewhere
17:39:19 <Gregor> alise: They all have ipv6
17:39:23 <alise> Gregor: nope
17:39:24 <Gregor> New and old
17:39:26 <alise> Gregor: not the ones they switched to recently
17:39:32 <Gregor> orly?
17:39:39 <alise> Gregor: or at least you only got a static ipv5
17:39:41 <alise> *ipv4
17:39:47 <alise> # Native IPv6 support available upon request.
17:39:47 <alise> # Static IPv4 address included
17:39:48 <alise> ok that's new
17:39:51 <alise> it used to just be static ipv4
17:39:58 <alise> and before that IPV6 FOR EVERYONE HAVE A FUCKING PARTY
17:40:04 <Gregor> inet6 addr: 2001:470:1:41:a800:ff:fe59:ad41/64 Scope:Global
17:40:06 <oerjan> in any case i think rationals are always periodic, so not that. heck if i know if it's even possible to compute
17:40:19 <alise> Gregor: furthermore
17:40:20 <alise> IPv6 will at the moment only work for hosts at the svtix colocation and Fremont. By default you will only get one IPv6 address, which has to be manually configured. This manual only covers the configuration for Debian GNU/Linux, but setup for other distributions should be similar.
17:40:21 <alise> Gregor: yes
17:40:24 <alise> Gregor: you got it before this change
17:40:24 <oerjan> (in closed form)
17:40:34 <Gregor> True
17:40:42 <alise> Gregor: The global prefix for one of the subnets is 2001:470:21:20::/64 and the other is 2001:470:21:31::/64. Your IPv6 address is the prefix + your IPv4 address.
17:40:49 <alise> Gregor: so your static ipv6 address is not "really".
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17:41:53 <alise> Gregor: which plan are you on?
17:42:10 <alise> also, are the problems of *Ego* server-related or you suck at coding related?
17:42:20 <Gregor> The $20
17:42:25 <Gregor> alise: I suck at coding related.
17:42:28 <alise> right :P
17:42:30 <Gregor> The server's never gone wonky with them.
17:42:39 <alise> `addquote <Gregor> alise: I suck at coding related.
17:42:46 <alise> if HackEgo was working it would be a nice quote.
17:42:47 <alise> oh the irony
17:42:47 <HackEgo> 195|<Gregor> alise: I suck at coding related.
17:42:49 <alise> yay
17:43:23 <alise> ... therefore i will now demise the kratological!
17:44:18 <alise> So ... who feels like hacking up 386BSD?
17:44:40 <alise> I'm sure Gregor thinks that writing a USB stack for 386BSD is a great idea.
17:47:10 <pikhq> Hah.
17:47:23 <alise> pikhq: Um, http://www.386bsd.org/ is like the worst site ever and I can't find a link to the code.
17:47:31 <alise> It's funny to write web pages like they are code lol
17:47:36 <pikhq> alise: Urgh.
17:47:41 <pikhq> That is revolting.
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17:49:34 <alise> pikhq: seems like the code isn't available
17:50:25 <alise> It is getting harder and harder to track down a download source for 386BSD as it too was swept up in the great lawsuit of AT&T vs BSDI/CSRG although it was never named in the suit. Not to mention it was quickly superseded by the FreeBSD & NetBSD projects. It is very unstable in the 0.1 release, there is clearly some issues with it's "install" program with regards to allocating swap space, and in general with the OS's swapping routines. Also because of the o
17:50:25 <alise> verlap any attempt to install on a disk larger then 100MB results in a corrupted file system that will no longer boot after the eventual file corruption. It's quite sad, but if you search the news group at the time, there was all kinds of issues with the install process, and with it's stability.
17:50:31 <alise> You can find 386BSD on the mirror site http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/0.1/
17:50:31 <alise> woot
17:50:50 <alise> http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/
17:50:54 <alise> pikhq: wanna hack this up? :D
17:52:22 <alise> pikhq: http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/0.1/386BSD/ whatare these?
17:52:24 <alise> floppy disk images?
17:52:25 <alise> *what are
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17:56:26 <Gregor> 240640 is a strange size ...
17:57:13 <Gregor> Incidentally, if you can get it to read the disk using BIOS calls only, then you don't need to implement a USB stack.
17:57:15 <alise> yeah...
17:57:25 <alise> Gregor: What? Why?
17:57:32 <alise> Legacy emulation?
17:57:35 <alise> That doesn't support flash drives.
17:57:44 <Gregor> 1) Most BIOSes capable of booting from USB will do legacy emulation. 2) You can use e.g. MEMDISK even if they don't.
17:57:56 <alise> So... they'll show USB flash drives as disks?
17:58:02 <Gregor> Through BIOS only.
17:58:03 <alise> Okay. Now what about cameras?
17:58:06 <alise> Microphones?
17:58:09 <Gregor> Then you're punked :P
17:58:13 <alise> Fans?
17:58:15 <alise> Hoovers?
17:58:18 <alise> Coffee makers?
17:58:23 <alise> Dildos?
17:58:26 <Gregor> USB --- DAMN
17:58:29 <Gregor> I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY THAT
17:58:48 <Gregor> (Actually I was going to say "USB-powered vibrators" but it's all the same)
17:58:49 <alise> Teledildonics, man. Ted Nelson has always done it before you. Always.
17:58:57 <alise> Vibrators = dildos, good to know.
17:59:15 <Gregor> Well no, but they fall under the category "sex toys" :P
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17:59:36 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasmatron
18:00:09 <alise> ftp://ftp-archive.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD-Archive/old-releases/ awesomeeee
18:00:29 <alise> Gregor: Here, you figure out WTF format those sources are in. Also how to get the floppies in the other directory working.
18:00:36 <alise> I'll ... research old FreeBSD releases.
18:00:50 <alise> (research, n. masturbate furiously to)
18:00:56 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
18:01:33 <alise> Welcome to FreeBSD! This document has been put together in an effort
18:01:33 <alise> to make initial installation of the system from floppy as easy as possible.
18:01:33 <alise> If you have either a SCSI cdrom drive or one of the supported Mitsumi
18:01:33 <alise> CDROM drives you can use the cdins-*.flp to install you system with. This
18:01:33 <alise> is much easier than using the 3 floppy install method.
18:01:38 <alise> CD install in 1993. Wowzers.
18:02:30 <alise> I /think/ you're meant to burn ftp://ftp-archive.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD-Archive/old-releases/i386/1.0-RELEASE/ to a CD, then use one of the boot floppies.
18:02:48 <Gregor> Heh.
18:02:50 <Gregor> "Burn"
18:03:00 <Gregor> You mean you're supposed to pay an exorbitant price for one to be pressed.
18:03:04 <alise> Well, yes.
18:03:09 <alise> But I think ftp://ftp-archive.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD-Archive/old-releases/i386/1.0-RELEASE/ is the files you need.
18:03:16 <alise> *has the files
18:03:26 <alise> They don't sell 1.0 any more, as far as I know :P
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18:06:00 <alise> Gregor: So does that CD just contain the contents of three floppies?!
18:06:36 <Gregor> lawl
18:06:47 <Gregor> That was all they could fit on a CD in 1993 :P
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18:09:18 <alise> this laptop is so awesome
18:11:51 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/VrtUT.jpg
18:12:15 <fizzie> alise: If you concatenate all those SRC01.00 .. 61 files together, you end up with a compress'd cpio archive.
18:12:27 <alise> fizzie: Okay. You do that.
18:12:36 <fizzie> Well, it's still fetching.
18:13:12 <alise> Maybe Deewiant could do the downloading part.
18:13:20 <fizzie> Well, it did finish already.
18:13:35 <fizzie> What do you want me to do with the contents, though?
18:13:55 * alise downloads 10 MiB. Hello, graphical Linux.
18:14:00 <alise> fizzie: Concatenate them and peek what's inside. :-P
18:14:08 <alise> I'm interested to know if it has, say, a build system.
18:14:57 <fizzie> alise: Well, here's a file listing: http://sprunge.us/ZQGI
18:15:10 <fizzie> There's a Makefile in /usr/src, at least.
18:15:21 <alise> But is it enough to build a floppy?
18:17:13 <pikhq> And will it blend?
18:17:47 <fizzie> I don't know about that. There *is* a usr/obj/sys.386bsd/i386/floppy/ directory with some basic-ish tools (fsck, init, sh, etc.); one would assume it's built from usr/src.
18:18:30 <alise> How do I tell QEMU to resize to whatever resolution the screen is?
18:18:33 <alise> of the VM
18:19:04 <Gregor> Uhhhh, it's supposed to do that automatically, and regardless of what you tell it to do otherwise.
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18:19:17 <alise> Well, it ... isn't.
18:19:32 <pikhq> Beat it with a stick.
18:19:33 <Gregor> Well, it FAIL.
18:19:47 <pikhq> And then... Demand that Project Gutenberg publish books using TeX!
18:20:03 <alise> TeX is just like SeX BUT WITH A T
18:20:10 <Gregor> And a lot more typesetting.
18:20:11 <alise> Q.E.d.
18:20:12 <alise> *D.
18:20:19 <Gregor> You mean Q.E.T.
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18:21:02 <alise> pikhq: I just though I would point out that Tiny Core is fucking X11-HAVING, INTERNET-CONNECTED LINUX IN TEN MEGABYTES.
18:21:07 <alise> With glib fucking C.
18:21:17 <alise> Indeed glib does fuck C but I mean glib-fucking-c.
18:21:24 <Gregor> Tiny Core is awesome.
18:21:38 <alise> Yes. Yes it is.
18:21:48 <alise> So is Puppy Linux and SliTaz and all those ilk.
18:21:58 <fizzie> alise: If you want the "Tiny 386BSD" floppy, the CAREWARE.INFO file instructs you to send a (3.5" or 5.25" HD formatted) floppy and a self-addressed stamped envelope to "Tiny 386BSD, DDJ, 411 Borel Avenue, San Mateo, CA. 94402 USA"; but it's written in 1992, so...
18:22:11 <alise> fizzie: Rather, I want to modify 386BSD and recompile the distro.
18:22:23 <alise> Call it 686BSD X-P
18:22:35 <alise> BSDM; the M is for modern
18:23:18 <pikhq> alise: Man.
18:23:43 * alise downloads firefox into ram
18:23:45 <alise> pikhq: wat
18:24:03 <alise> FIREFOX IN RAM has there ever a better phrase been uttered? aww tiny core doesn't have firefox
18:24:33 <fizzie> alise: Well... the instructions do say that (after several configuration steps and building everything with 'make') the system "may be tested by copying into a floppy that holds a minimal set of utilies (e.g. fixit floppy), --"
18:24:37 <alise> installin' midori to ram and shit
18:24:44 <alise> fizzie: Okay.
18:25:04 <alise> fizzie: So basically ... it is probably possible to produce a modified 386BSD distro?
18:25:09 <alise> Here, you, try and run make. :P
18:25:12 <alise> I suggest using bsdmake, obviously.
18:25:37 <fizzie> I am a bit suspicious of what sort of compiler it would like.
18:26:06 <alise> pcc. Probably.
18:26:11 <alise> gcc might just work.
18:26:52 <fizzie> "-- runs the config program on a host description file (e.g. config SUMNER) --"; then I go "hmm, what's a SUMNER?" and take a peek at the config file: "# Thos Sumner's 50Mhz 486"
18:26:56 <fizzie> "Oh, okay."
18:27:38 <alise> fizzie: xD
18:27:48 <fizzie> I don't quite know where the "config" program is, though.
18:28:00 <alise> fizzie: Maybe the makefile would give some hints? Here, how big is the cpio?
18:28:07 <alise> Can you just gzip it and upload it somewhere?
18:28:18 <jillsmitt> alise: what is the conception of this channel?
18:28:42 <alise> jillsmitt: esoteric programming languages & computing; let me guess: you are here for the magic?
18:29:22 <jillsmitt> alise: nope, i just newbee in developers world
18:29:42 <jillsmitt> magic is a int64 under ms vs 2005
18:29:57 <fizzie> alise: http://zem.fi/~fis/src01.cpio.bz2 is ~7.3 megabytes, not bad. And the "config" program seems to be in usr/src/usr.sbin/config/; there is a slight chance a top-level "make" would build it. (Those test-on-a-floppy instructions were for the sys.386bsd part, which looks kernely to me.)
18:30:02 <alise> jillsmitt: well do you know of brainfuck, intercal or befunge?
18:30:27 <alise> those languages designed to be obscure and impossible, that's basically our forte; though we're rarely on topic and when we are, it tends to be about hopelessly theoretical languages
18:30:28 <alise> but it's fun here
18:30:40 <alise> fizzie: well give it a go then :D
18:30:50 <jillsmitt> alise: only a couple of words.. it is a low-level language, kernel programming or something like that
18:31:04 <alise> jillsmitt: mm
18:31:12 <alise> jillsmitt: basically, esoteric language = impractical, difficult language
18:31:18 <alise> there's more than that but that is the basic idea
18:31:29 <alise> right now we're trying to run old operating systems from the early 90s :-P
18:31:44 <jillsmitt> alise: very cool
18:32:09 <jillsmitt> alise: can i ask any documentation?
18:32:28 <alise> jillsmitt: sure -- documentation for what?
18:32:42 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ has pages for all esoteric languages, more or less
18:32:52 <alise> pikhq: wow i'm actually running midori from ram, unpossible
18:33:03 <fizzie> We have a befunge bot, that's very accessible for new folks too.
18:33:06 <fizzie> ^source
18:33:06 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
18:33:15 <fizzie> Just take a peek at that.
18:33:26 <alise> don't be evil fizzie :P
18:33:44 <alise> fizzie: is this the whole source thing
18:33:45 <alise> or just 01
18:34:10 <jillsmitt> alise: i want to download some off-line docs about your language
18:34:26 <alise> jillsmitt: which language? we have many
18:34:30 <zzo38> You can copy the wiki files if you want to
18:34:35 <fizzie> alise: The whole, all concatenated.
18:34:40 <alise> fizzie: right
18:34:42 <alise> any bsdmake success?
18:34:56 <zzo38> You can also print them if you want to
18:35:27 <jillsmitt> oh... sorry, english is not my native, brainfuck i think =) alise. i will read wiki pages right now
18:35:46 <fizzie> alise: http://sprunge.us/Mgeb for a top-level invocation; I guess the world is supposed to be built on a BSD system. There's not too much of documentation there.
18:35:47 <alise> jillsmitt: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck is the place for brainfuck
18:35:57 <jillsmitt> thanks
18:36:04 <alise> fizzie: hmm, maybe try and build just the kernel?
18:36:32 <alise> fizzie: of course the sure thing is to use the pre-build 386bsd floppies to build it
18:36:36 <alise> *pre-built
18:36:36 <fizzie> But I need the "config" tool to turn a host config file into a kernel build-dir.
18:36:44 <alise> ah.
18:36:53 <alise> well what's one more floppy between friends?
18:37:08 <fizzie> It's of course possible config'd build cleanly on a non-BSD too.
18:37:13 <alise> http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/0.1/386bsd-Bootflp/ may be it
18:37:21 <alise> i think the floppies are the two files with the same size
18:37:30 <alise> and i think you need to assemble the other cpios http://www.oldlinux.org/Linux.old/distributions/386BSD/0.1/386BSD/
18:37:38 <alise> the boot floppies will prompt for those, i think
18:37:41 <alise> gogogo :D
18:37:53 <fizzie> I'll gogogo to sauna now, sorrey.
18:37:58 <alise> DAMMIT FINLAND
18:38:16 <fizzie> As for building just "config" stand-alone: http://sprunge.us/UePD
18:38:20 <zzo38> I have found out how to copy a disk image using DefineDosDevice, in Windows.
18:38:30 <alise> pikhq: So.
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18:41:00 <jillsmitt> alise: i have "The precondition on the request for the URL / evaluated to false." on http://www.esolangs.org/
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18:41:16 <alise> jillsmitt: huh
18:41:22 <alise> jillsmitt: maybe it is blocking you for some reason
18:41:25 <zzo38> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/10.07.17 see the top please answer
18:41:43 <zzo38> jillsmitt: I got that once based on User-Agent string, try changing it
18:41:55 <zzo38> I think the User-Agent string is not allowed to contain a URL
18:41:57 <alise> zzo38: the \n is very ugly
18:42:01 <alise> zzo38: I suggest "n" in a diamond shape
18:42:02 <alise> or a square
18:42:03 <alise> or circle
18:42:19 <alise> zzo38: I also suggest that the + appears above the <-
18:42:20 <zzo38> alise: How do I put letters in a diamond shape?
18:42:26 <alise> zzo38: I'm not sure, in Plain TeX.
18:42:42 <zzo38> alise: Yes I did want the + above the arrow, but I couldn't do that so I put the arrow above instead.
18:42:46 <alise> zzo38: one thing I dislike about CWEB is the |_| for space
18:42:52 <alise> i'd just put a normal space there
18:43:51 <zzo38> Maybe I might fix it to put a normal space
18:45:39 -!- sftp has joined.
18:46:32 <alise> sftp is terribly secure
18:46:49 <zzo38> I often use sftp at Free Geek
18:47:06 <zzo38> As well as ssh
18:47:07 <sftp> yeah...
18:47:55 <alise> [[Are there any self-deprecating Norwegians? Why is it that every Norwegian is all oh, look at the beautiful view and fantastic life I have and yet there aren't any "I hate Norway it is a horrible place".
18:47:55 <alise> Be more miserable.]]
18:48:29 <alise> oerjan: ok i'm on a plane now
18:49:21 <oerjan> hey it's a horrible place, it's just everywhere else is worse *ducks*
18:49:37 <zzo38> The most of the security is that those computers cannot be accessed from outside of Free Geek (except the wiki).
18:50:16 <oerjan> alise: wait, literally?
18:50:22 <alise> oerjan: yes
18:51:53 * oerjan dares not ask
18:52:35 <alise> oerjan: be afraid. be very afraid
18:52:50 <oerjan> eek
18:52:57 <alise> oerjan: >:)
18:53:15 <alise> oerjan: you can't really sneak up on someone with a plane, this is the only issue
18:53:47 <oerjan> i hear someone called al-qaida has had some success with it
18:54:28 <alise> *qaeda
18:54:36 <alise> well ok so al-qaida is technically valid.
18:54:50 <alise> oerjan: i'm fucking with you, i'm not on a plane
18:54:57 <oerjan> i think arabic transliteration varies according to the phases of the planets
18:55:06 <oerjan> oh
18:55:50 <zzo38> oerjan: ??
18:56:09 <oerjan> zzo38: not literally
18:56:56 <zzo38> OK
18:57:28 <alise> zzo38: it does depend on the number of sheep in new zealand though
18:57:41 <oerjan> modulo 37
18:58:06 <alise> yes
18:58:16 <alise> oerjan: although 38 if the number of sheep is 37
18:58:20 <alise> creating the 37 Scenario
18:58:28 <zzo38> Do you like the way that octal and hexadecimal characters are printed?
18:58:30 <alise> (where every transliteration consists purely of consonants)
19:00:40 <alise> brb
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19:09:59 <calamari> hi
19:11:17 <alise> hi
19:11:19 <zzo38> calamari: What is your opinion of printing octal/hexadecimal characters in C string, in the printout?
19:13:04 <calamari> what a strange question lol
19:13:39 <calamari> it works
19:15:10 <calamari> zzo38, is there a controversy? lol
19:27:02 <zzo38> Yes see the picture. And see if the other things (such as \n and so on) are good. Do you know how to put "n" in a circle or diamond shape in TeX? (Instead of overtyping the backslash and n)
19:33:59 <zzo38> What is Donald Knuth's telephone number (or address)? After I finished writing some things in Enhanced CWEB I want to see whether or not he prefer the Enhanced CWEB or the standard CWEB
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19:36:40 <pikhq> zzo38: http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/email.html
19:37:55 <zzo38> OK thanks for the address
19:38:18 <pikhq> Also, it amuses me that he appears to use TeX for his website.
19:39:14 <zzo38> Does he? I thought it is just HTML (possibly hand-coded)
19:39:39 <zzo38> Is what the codes for that page looks like to me
19:39:56 <pikhq> It's the usage of `` '' for quotes that does it.
19:40:50 <pikhq> Though, that may just be a Knuth-ism.
19:40:53 <zzo38> He might enter those things in HTML just because it is also used in TeX
19:41:45 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes that is what I mean
19:42:52 <zzo38> Do you think if I wrote a letter they would send a reply in 3 months?
19:43:07 <zzo38> (To the return address on the envelope)
19:43:14 <zzo38> And how many stamps will it need?
19:43:44 <pikhq> He almost certainly will reply, and I dunno what the appropriate postage is.
19:43:55 <zzo38> Well, if someone I know is going there soon I will ask them to just put the envelope in their mailbox directly
19:43:55 <pikhq> You're in Canada, correct?
19:44:01 <zzo38> Yes I am in Canada
19:44:12 <pikhq> Unfortunately, that makes it difficult.
19:44:22 <pikhq> I highly doubt the US postal service likes Canadian postage.
19:45:14 <zzo38> But isn't Canada Post supposed to replace the stamps with United States stamps if I put it in a Canadian mailbox and the address is United States?
19:45:31 <pikhq> Uh... No?
19:45:47 <pikhq> That's not how international post works.
19:46:50 <zzo38> Then how does international post works?
19:47:05 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reply_coupon There we go. Try to get one of these.
19:48:03 <oerjan> oh for the return mail
19:48:10 <zzo38> O, so that is how it works. OK
19:48:34 <pikhq> And when you send it *there*, you simply pay sufficient postage. (your post office would probably know how much "sufficient postage" is.)
19:49:05 <pikhq> And international treaties make it so that postage "just works".
19:49:11 <pikhq> Hooray, international treaties!
19:50:51 <oerjan> hm wouldn't the replier need to visit a post office to convert those into stamps, though?
19:51:17 <oerjan> not as simple as just dropping it into a mailbox
19:51:40 <pikhq> Yeah; it's the best you can do for sending international postage, though.
19:52:29 <pikhq> Actually. A Canadian post office *might* have US postage for sale.
19:52:34 <pikhq> (big maybe, though)
19:52:35 <coppro> depends where it is
19:52:47 <coppro> most wouldn't
19:53:11 <coppro> just include a $1 bill or something
19:53:32 <coppro> (yes, I know that's a bad idea)
20:00:08 <alise> Once & forall,
20:00:11 <alise> *forall.
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20:00:39 -!- p_q has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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20:15:47 <alise> "New concept battery is recharged by vibration - how perfect is this for wireless controllers?"
20:16:02 <alise> One word: never-ending dildo
20:16:42 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:17:02 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/cqk6d/berkeley_programming_professor_posted_an/
20:17:21 <oerjan> (*MWAHAHAHAHA*)
20:17:24 <Sgeo> "I need a Bot to enter moves made by computer on a chess board GUI "A", to an online java flash chessboard GUI"B", and moves made by "B" computer player to "A"."
20:17:30 <Sgeo> "java flash"
20:20:14 <alise> oerjan: indeed
20:20:20 <alise> Wow. The word "acronym" only dates back to 1943.
20:20:45 <alise> oerjan: of course scroll down to question 20 to see the 'real' test
20:20:57 <pikhq> Man.
20:20:58 <alise> the answer is E, by the way
20:21:06 <alise> (before you say I'm wrong: read it closely)
20:21:09 <alise> (apply sarcasm detector)
20:21:15 <pikhq> Lulu.com has very affordable costs for even single-book printings of things.
20:21:43 <alise> Indeed.
20:21:44 <oerjan> alise: i chose to interpret it as a joke jab on the fact that every standardized test contains at least one question that is ill-defined, ambiguous and an insult to anyone with actual intelligence.
20:21:45 <alise> But the quality isn't so good afaik.
20:21:50 <alise> It's just paperback isn't it?
20:21:51 <oerjan> (#20)
20:21:54 <pikhq> alise: No.
20:22:06 <alise> oerjan: actually, the whole thing is based around #20 being a comment on the uselessness of standardised tests
20:22:13 <alise> idiots think standardised tests measure intelligence
20:22:19 <alise> idiots think barometers measure all of the weather
20:22:19 <pikhq> You choose the printing quality.
20:22:25 <alise> weather = temperature + wind-velocity + latitude + longitude
20:22:30 <pikhq> From somewhat-shitty paperbacks to decent hardcover books.
20:22:35 <alise> therefore the answer to #20 is E.
20:22:38 <alise> pikhq: well okay
20:22:45 <alise> pikhq: just ask Quadrescence to hand-bind a book for you :P
20:22:57 <oerjan> alise: although after reading the reddit discussion i note that E _is_ apparently the intended choice, it makes the answers form a sentence
20:22:58 <pikhq> Quadrescence: You. Time Machine. FTW.
20:23:02 <Quadrescence> :)
20:23:08 <Sgeo> alise, or it could be any, since any could fit there, I guess
20:23:15 <Sgeo> Or, hm
20:23:17 <oerjan> alise: i _still_ prefer my meta-jab though ;D
20:23:19 <alise> Quadrescence and a time machine: pikhq's plans for the night.
20:23:38 <oerjan> (i put a jab in your jab etc.)
20:24:04 <oerjan> alise: so i solved it without assuming anything about #20. found four solutions.
20:24:43 <alise> oerjan: this would be terribly easy with haskell or prolog :P
20:25:00 <oerjan> true. i did it by hand though.
20:25:22 <oerjan> (ok i consider vim an extension of my hands, here ;D)
20:25:44 <Quadrescence> pikhq: do you want a book printed or something
20:25:49 <pikhq> alise: Also; a friend of mine has a copy of Atlanta Nights, which was published hardcover by Lulu. Good print quality.
20:26:09 <pikhq> Quadrescence: I've just got a couple of totally nicely typeset books here and think I should have them printed & bound some day.
20:26:37 <alise> pikhq: Pfft, not the original PublishAmerica edition?
20:26:37 <pikhq> alise: Bad book, but it's printed well. :P
20:26:50 <pikhq> Sadly, no.
20:26:51 <Quadrescence> pikhq: I could do it depending on what exactly you're looking for.
20:27:02 <alise> Oh, it was never printed by them.
20:27:05 <alise> They withdrew their offer.
20:27:09 <alise> (After finding out about the hoax.)
20:27:21 <pikhq> Quadrescence: It's "some day when I've got slightly more expendable income" that I want it done anyways.
20:27:50 <pikhq> Quadrescence: But, yeah. Just "The Time Machine" and "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court", typeset in TeX.
20:28:26 <Quadrescence> i c
20:29:17 <pikhq> Anyways: it's just now hitting me that literally any idiot can have any arbitrary book printed.
20:29:48 <alise> but is it done with beeswax???
20:29:55 <alise> this is the personal touch pikhq, you will never find happiness without Quadrescence
20:29:59 <pikhq> If I really felt like it, I could have a hard-cover copy of Linux printed. :P
20:30:07 <pikhq> alise: You do make a good point.
20:30:26 <alise> pikhq: Tell me you made it with the memoir class.
20:30:44 <pikhq> alise: Currently, it's on a tweaked book class.
20:30:53 <Sgeo> hoax?
20:30:53 <pikhq> Easy to change around though.
20:30:56 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Change "book" to "memoir", then read this: http://www.tex.ac.uk/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/memoir/memman.pdf
20:31:04 <alise> Seriously. memoir makes everything just so much better.
20:31:22 <alise> Sgeo: Atlanta Nights was made to prove that PublishAmerica were a vanity firm.
20:31:43 <pikhq> I've also discovered that LyX is a very, very nice TeX editor, if you're into GUI things.
20:33:59 <Sgeo> 'On 23 January 2005, the hoax was publicly revealed by the authors. On 24 January 2005, PublishAmerica retracted its acceptance, stating that after "further review" the novel failed to meet their standards.
20:34:00 <Sgeo> '
20:34:07 <coppro> alise: how much do you like vi?
20:34:52 <alise> coppro: I like it and I dislike it.
20:34:53 * Sgeo downloads VS2010
20:34:59 <coppro> alise: what do you dislike?
20:35:27 <coppro> because I want an integrated vi desktop everything
20:38:13 <alise> coppro: you're crazy
20:38:19 <alise> coppro: i liked you better before you tried vim
20:38:23 <coppro> lol
20:38:39 <coppro> why do you say that?
20:39:51 * Sgeo isn't 100% sure what the difference between vi and vim is
20:40:19 <alise> Sgeo: vi is old, and more an ethos nowadays than a real thing; vim is like vi but bloated.
20:40:32 <alise> coppro: because you had a more reasoned opinion about editors. :p
20:40:54 <coppro> oh, vi has lots of bad bits
20:41:06 <coppro> but the principle of different modes and the ease of commands are things I like
20:41:06 <Sgeo> Is it safe to assume that vim is less bloated than emacs?
20:41:08 <coppro> yes
20:41:10 <coppro> very safe
20:41:24 <Quadrescence> pikhq: Well, I can make "junky" softcovers. Junky as in lower paper quality, just a cardstock cover with the title printed on it and the spine, glued binding, etc. I can also make sewn hardcovers that are clothbound which I can't replicate exactly and which are a little more "personal"
20:41:38 <alise> "This is one of the fun things about physics. If my 360 controller vibrated when I played Halo, so then I could power my Gameboy with the batteries, then time wouldn't exist."
20:41:40 <Quadrescence> I can also do typography and whatever just sayin
20:41:46 <alise> coppro: safe, but not /that/ safe
20:41:46 <Quadrescence> typesetting
20:41:54 <alise> coppro: vim is quite bloated
20:42:05 <coppro> vim itself? it's not that bad
20:42:23 <Quadrescence> coppro: I hope you're just joking around and actually use emacs
20:42:34 <Sgeo> I <3 emacs
20:42:35 <coppro> :P
20:42:53 <Sgeo> Or at least, when I have to use an editor at a terminal, I <3 emacs
20:43:33 <coppro> you poor thing; there are times when you don't?
20:45:52 <Sgeo> Dear Daemon Tools: Didn't I just tell you to NOT install a toolbar? Dear Spybot S&D's Teatime: WHY would you just be dismissed at a keypress? I have no clue what just happened, because I was in the middle of complaining about DAEMON Tools
20:46:33 <pikhq> alise: My goodness the memoir class is awesome.
20:46:42 <alise> pikhq: Yes.
20:46:59 <alise> My "The Metamorphosis" is set with it; I fiddled about with the chapter headings and page numbers and got something amazing.
20:46:59 <pikhq> It's... The perfect way to create books in TeX.
20:47:33 <Sgeo> Can LyX support it?
20:47:39 <alise> Sgeo: Probably not.
20:47:59 <pikhq> If it can't, well, it's a simple enough matter to get proper TeX out of it and play with it from there.
20:48:26 <alise> On the other hand, why not just write LaTeX directly?
20:48:28 <alise> It's not hard or anything.
20:50:15 <AnMaster> strange messages during my harddrive firmware upgrade: http://sporksirc.net/~anmaster/firmware-upgrade/
20:51:52 <alise> "So I pressed my Any key but the program didn't find it satisfactionary it seems, it wanted another press on the Any key:"
20:51:55 <alise> Could you get more boring if you tried?
20:52:03 <alise> Also, "satisfactionary" is really not a word. Really really not.
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20:52:45 <Gregor> You don't find the word "satisfactionary" to be satisfactory, eh?
20:53:11 <alise> I don't find "satisfactionary" very satisfactionary. It's not a very cromulent word.
20:53:21 <alise> I think AnMaster is just trying to embiggen his vocabulary; I don't find this very satisfactionary.
20:55:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:56:22 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
20:56:36 <pikhq> BTW, lyx does support the memoir class.
20:56:42 <pikhq> As "Book (memoir)".
20:57:12 <AnMaster> <alise> Also, "satisfactionary" is really not a word. Really really not. <-- so I didn't spell check
20:57:20 -!- alise10mb has joined.
20:57:25 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> <alise> Also, "satisfactionary" is really not a word. Really really not. <-- so I didn't spell check
20:57:37 <alise10mb> Hi from Tiny Core.
20:57:57 <AnMaster> anyway. Fixed that now
20:58:05 <alise10mb> AnMaster: It's not so much a spelling error as a pointless ... conflabulation.
20:58:18 <alise10mb> pikhq: Well who cares.
20:58:25 <alise10mb> I wonder why this text is small in Tiny Core.
20:58:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I know. Quite nice
20:58:38 <AnMaster> alise10mb, what is Tiny Core?
20:59:11 <AnMaster> alise10mb, and I assume you found the strangness boring too?
20:59:17 <AnMaster> I expect no less from you
20:59:21 <alise10mb> AnMaster: Tiny Core Linux is a graphical, Internet-supporting, package-manager-including, graphical-package-manager-including, Terminal-including Linux distribution that is only a 10 MiB ISO. It loads completely into RAM, and even uses glibc.
20:59:36 <AnMaster> alise10mb, compressed fs?
20:59:45 <alise10mb> Indeed, the strangeness is very boring. If your expectations of me are that I demonstrate a sense of humour with some sort of discrimination and taste, then thanks.
21:00:08 <alise10mb> AnMaster: I think it uses a compressed kernel including the distro. Not sure. RAM usage after boot is 30 MiB or something.
21:00:08 <AnMaster> alise10mb, I did not expect we had compatible senses of humour. However there are other people here than you and me.
21:00:17 <AnMaster> it was mostly for their benefit I posted that
21:00:18 <alise10mb> pikhq: do you find that web page funy?
21:00:18 <oerjan> alise10mb: your "The Metamorphosis" is not a good example of memoir; it's all buggy.
21:00:20 <alise10mb> *funny
21:00:25 <alise10mb> oerjan: >_<
21:00:31 <pikhq> alise10mb: Hrm?
21:00:31 <AnMaster> alise10mb, I know you will find everything I do boring anyway. *shrug*
21:00:34 <Sgeo> alise10mb, what, not a 1.44mb distro?
21:00:47 <AnMaster> alise10mb, basically I don't care about your opinion
21:00:51 <alise10mb> Sgeo: There used to exist floppy distros with X; not nowadays.
21:01:01 <alise10mb> AnMaster: Um, you /asked me if I thought it was boring/.
21:01:07 <alise10mb> AnMaster: If you don't care, don't waste my time.
21:01:16 <alise10mb> Sgeo: pikhq was working on one, but *eh*.
21:01:41 <AnMaster> alise10mb, only after you complained that my text was boring
21:01:59 <Sgeo> Wasn't it once concluded that I was boring?
21:02:17 <alise10mb> AnMaster: Actually, I was calling your "Any key" joke boring.
21:02:30 <alise10mb> Maybe it's funny -- if you're Iliad and it's 1997 and you're writing User Friendly.
21:02:44 <alise10mb> Which is an awfully bad place to be, really, and I truly doubt anyone actually gets amused by it nowadays.
21:02:47 <alise10mb> Anyone computer literate, at least.
21:03:03 <alise10mb> SeaMonkey is smaller than I thought. 13 MiB.
21:03:07 <coppro> it's still mildly amusing if used properly
21:03:07 <Sgeo> alise10mb, he's on hiatus
21:03:10 <alise10mb> Isn't that smaller than Firefox?
21:03:15 <alise10mb> coppro: ok, but certainly not /directly/
21:03:27 <alise10mb> Sgeo: Was the spoiler that ILIAD has cancer?
21:04:02 <alise10mb> [Dramatic music. Exeunt all but bad feeling in reader's stomach.]
21:04:06 <Sgeo> I think his brother was ill, or died, or something a while ago, I'm not sure about the recent hiatus
21:04:41 <alise10mb> His brother died of cancer -- BUT NOT BEFORE PASSING IT ON TO HIM!
21:06:08 <alise10mb> Wow, my trackpad can middl-click.
21:06:12 <alise10mb> *middle
21:06:13 <alise10mb> Sweet.
21:06:17 <Sgeo> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/read.cgi?id=20091125&tid=3270602
21:06:27 <alise10mb> Seems it has four buttons.
21:06:42 <AnMaster> alise10mb, btw I seem to remember compaq changing their faq to include the any key
21:06:58 <alise10mb> Sgeo: I can't click on that link for some reason. I guess I'll load Midori manually.
21:07:04 <alise10mb> FROM RAM.
21:07:09 <AnMaster> alise10mb, http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/25/compaq_faq_explains_the_any/
21:07:17 <AnMaster> alise10mb, 2003... right
21:07:20 <alise10mb> Oh, actually the mouse seems to have broken.
21:07:32 <AnMaster> link to their faq seems completely dead
21:10:45 <pikhq> alise10mb: Say, what's the best way to deal with *unnamed* chapters in LaTeX?
21:10:54 <alise> pikhq: Ehm.
21:10:56 <alise> pikhq: \chapter{}.
21:11:02 <pikhq> Mmkay.
21:11:04 <alise> pikhq: Then search memoir documentation to customise the chapter style.
21:11:09 <alise> That'll let you remove colons or spaces or whatever.
21:11:20 <alise> That's what I did for The Metamorphosis, anyway.
21:11:22 <pikhq> That creates some really fucking annoying hyperref stuff though. *shrug*
21:11:34 <alise> \chapter{} and set the chapters to display as Roman numerals, so I get "I", "II", "III".
21:11:35 <alise> pikhq: ehm?
21:11:41 -!- alise10mb has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:12:11 <pikhq> Hyperref is the package that makes the PDF output have PDF bookmarks and the ToC be clickable.
21:12:14 <pikhq> Not a big deal.
21:12:53 <alise> Meh. PDFs aren't for on-screen reading anyway.
21:13:42 <pikhq> No, wait, it "just works". Awesome.
21:13:57 <pikhq> Now just to futz with the chapter style so that looks right.
21:14:14 <alise> pikhq: Yeah; you'll end up copy-paste-and-editing a bit.
21:14:23 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:14:29 * alise ponders forking Midori and making it more minimalist
21:14:31 <alise> *minimalist.
21:14:34 * Sgeo doesn't like futzing with appearance stuff
21:15:14 <Sgeo> Midori, the Microsoft OS?
21:15:43 <alise> Midori the web browser.
21:15:57 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
21:19:37 * pikhq seems to not be groking how the styling works
21:20:22 <alise> pikhq: What code are you using?
21:22:09 * pikhq mutters
21:22:28 * pikhq wants the ToC to have chapter numbers.
21:23:22 <alise> pikhq: If the chapters are unnamed, don't have a ToC!
21:23:28 <alise> pikhq: Also, are you typesetting a novel?
21:23:33 <alise> If so, do not include a Table of Contents.
21:23:35 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
21:23:35 <AnMaster> <alise> Meh. PDFs aren't for on-screen reading anyway. <-- eh? I think they work fine for that
21:23:37 <alise> Superfluous and spoilery.
21:23:47 <pikhq> Okay, okay.
21:23:58 <pikhq> Off with the ToC.
21:24:06 <alise> AnMaster: no; they cannot reflow their layout to the situation, they are based on the useless-for-screen metaphor of "pages", and they are usually typeset considering print media, with the typefaces and other such things suited for print.
21:24:17 <alise> you /can/ read PDFs just fine on a screen, but it's not ideal.
21:24:19 <AnMaster> <alise> Superfluous and spoilery. <-- I know novels with ToC
21:24:19 <pikhq> Now how's about getting chapter numbers to appear in the new chapter thing and the heading?
21:24:24 <pikhq> As, say, "Chapter I".
21:24:28 <alise> AnMaster: So do I.
21:24:31 <alise> AnMaster: They're silly.
21:24:42 <alise> Indeed I got a minor spoiler that seemed like a major spoiler once by reading a ToC at the start of a novel.
21:24:42 <AnMaster> alise, some are not spoilery though.
21:24:55 <alise> AnMaster: Well, still no reason to have one. If you must, put it at the end, like an index.
21:24:56 <AnMaster> alise, also I know some semi-novels with index
21:25:04 <alise> Semi-novels?
21:25:19 <AnMaster> alise, Science of Discworld
21:25:22 <AnMaster> know of it?
21:25:30 <AnMaster> every other chapter is discworld story
21:25:33 <alise> Of it, yes.
21:25:35 <Sgeo> I was thumbing through Good Omens, and one of the chapter dividers was major spoilery
21:25:58 <AnMaster> the other half are popular science text
21:26:06 <AnMaster> meh grammar fail
21:26:11 <coppro> Sgeo: thats your fault
21:26:14 <coppro> <3 Science of Discworld
21:26:19 <AnMaster> coppro, same
21:26:27 <oerjan> Chapter 15, in Which the Hero meets his untimely Demise
21:26:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, XD
21:26:45 <Sgeo> I should make a reading list
21:26:49 <AnMaster> Sgeo, which chapter divider?
21:26:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo, I read Good Omens so it won't spoil it for me
21:26:58 <Sgeo> The last one, I think
21:27:14 -!- alise has left (?).
21:27:18 -!- alise has joined.
21:27:21 <alise> Hmm, I wonder what Genie is doing now.
21:27:21 <AnMaster> coppro, learnt quite a few useful bits from the Science of Discworld books
21:27:30 <coppro> indeed
21:27:34 <alise> <pikhq> Now how's about getting chapter numbers to appear in the new chapter thing and the heading?
21:27:40 <alise> Try a different chapter header and page number style.
21:27:43 <coppro> I also loved the house analogy for mathematics
21:27:46 <alise> You can copy the code (in the manual) for one and modify it to your tastes.
21:27:49 <Sgeo> Gur bar gung fnvq "Gur qnl nsgre gbzbeebj", be znlor n qnl bs gur jrrx. Vg'f orra n juvyr, ohg vg vaqvpngrq gung gur vzcraqvat ncbpnylcfr jbhyqa'g npghnyyl unccra.
21:27:52 <coppro> can't remember which book that was in
21:27:59 <Sgeo> Don't un-ROT13 if you haven't read Good Omens
21:28:00 <AnMaster> coppro, oh yes that :D
21:28:06 <pikhq> alise: Trying to grok.
21:28:09 <alise> coppro: it's not Sgeo's fault
21:28:14 <AnMaster> coppro, the same one discussing Hilberts hotel iirc
21:28:15 <oerjan> Sgeo: fthagn!
21:28:20 <AnMaster> Hilbert's
21:28:21 <coppro> AnMaster: sounds right
21:28:23 <coppro> was that 2?
21:28:23 <alise> not reading stuff isn't easy, and putting something potentially spoilery at the start of a book is /retarded/.
21:28:27 <AnMaster> coppro, which is 1 or 2
21:28:30 <AnMaster> coppro, definitely not 3
21:28:36 <AnMaster> or maybe
21:28:37 <Sgeo> alise, I didn't say there was a ToC
21:28:38 <coppro> yeah
21:28:41 <coppro> 3 seems wrong
21:28:41 <alise> pikhq: I'd help by giving you code from my "The Metamorphosis", but -- do you have greppable logs?
21:28:45 <AnMaster> coppro, I seem to remember 3 discussing infinite too
21:28:48 <alise> Does anyone have greppable logs that they want to grep for me?
21:28:50 <coppro> hmm... could have been
21:29:02 <AnMaster> coppro, meh they are upstairs. You go check your copies
21:29:05 <oerjan> his so very buggy code
21:29:09 <AnMaster> too far away for me
21:29:11 <coppro> AnMaster: I only own 3
21:29:16 <coppro> also, it's upstairs
21:29:17 <pikhq> alise: Not handy.
21:29:21 <AnMaster> coppro, all 3?
21:29:28 <coppro> no, just #3
21:29:29 <alise> AnMaster: Can you grep some logs for me? Thank you.
21:29:32 <AnMaster> coppro, I have a longer staircase! (or something)
21:29:37 <AnMaster> alise, not on that computer with logs
21:29:42 <AnMaster> alise, it is turned off
21:29:43 <alise> AnMaster: For, uh, "alise" and "metamorphosis", case insensitive; for the source file of my The Metamorphosis.
21:29:43 <alise> Dammit.
21:29:44 <alise> Oh well then.
21:29:49 <alise> pikhq: What is the code you are using, what are you trying to do?
21:29:49 <coppro> AnMaster: what's your altitude. Maybe the air is thicker?
21:29:53 <AnMaster> alise, the last 2 hours or so: sure
21:30:05 <AnMaster> coppro, +- 0 sea level
21:30:12 <coppro> there you go
21:30:14 * oerjan invents the word "greppatim"
21:30:28 <AnMaster> oerjan, meaning?
21:30:37 <coppro> ... crud
21:30:44 <AnMaster> coppro, what?
21:30:49 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
21:30:50 <oerjan> AnMaster: exactly as grepped
21:30:59 <pikhq> alise: I'm trying most things in here and they're all having *no effect*.
21:31:00 <AnMaster> oerjan, norwegian?
21:31:09 <oerjan> um no
21:31:13 <coppro> AnMaster: the air is thicker where you are
21:31:20 <AnMaster> coppro, it is slower to move in the ticker air
21:31:24 <coppro> exactly
21:31:26 <AnMaster> coppro, higher air resistance
21:31:27 <oerjan> definitely an english mangling
21:31:31 <coppro> that's your excuse for not going upstairs
21:31:31 <AnMaster> coppro, thus you go check your copy
21:31:40 <coppro> however, I only own one book :D
21:31:45 <AnMaster> coppro, oh I thought you were trying to use that the other way around
21:31:50 <alise> pikhq: Okay, um, you know when I ask for code? I mean actual code. :P
21:31:53 <alise> Like, pastebin would be good.
21:31:58 <coppro> AnMaster: no, I was trying to figure out your "or something" :P
21:32:16 <Sgeo> BRB, restarting for Daemon Tool's sake
21:32:52 <oerjan> it's a tool of daemons
21:32:54 <pikhq> alise: Could you just give me a freaking example of what *actually* works?
21:33:22 <SgeoN1> It's disturbing how long I have to wait between clicking Shut Down and getting the screen to choose what I want to do
21:33:23 <AnMaster> coppro, well iirc in #3 they discuss infinity in the middle somewhere. Ponder in the big hall. Archchancellor (sp!?) coming in from his morning jog or such and then a discussion of infinity. Followed by a chapter on that subject
21:33:28 <alise> pikhq: Not without knowing what you're trying to do &c. Can't you just paste the header of your file and I'll try and see an error?
21:33:42 <coppro> AnMaster: okay, fine, I'll go look
21:34:19 <AnMaster> must have been #3 since it was about Darwin
21:34:28 <pikhq> Ah, there it is. "\pagestyle{plain}". That's dumb to have. :P
21:34:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, what are you typesetting?
21:34:57 <SgeoN1> It should not take this bloody long. I'm pretty sure my hodgepodge registry is screwing somethivng up
21:35:11 <pikhq> AnMaster: "The Time Machine, by H.G. Wells.
21:35:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, nice
21:35:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, I assume you use pdftex?
21:35:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, remember to use microtype
21:35:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, optically straight margins rock :D
21:36:17 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:36:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, just put \usepackage{microtype}
21:36:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: Xetex.
21:37:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, argh why?
21:37:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, I suspect luatex can do this too
21:37:12 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:37:15 <AnMaster> no idea if xetex can
21:37:22 <SgeoN1> Luatex o.O
21:37:35 <AnMaster> well it will be able to at least
21:37:39 <SgeoN1> Does that do what it sounds like?
21:37:42 <pikhq> Microtypography is one of the major *points* of XeTeX.
21:38:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, so it is able to do optically straight margins?
21:38:14 <pikhq> Yes.
21:38:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, how?
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21:38:25 <AnMaster> same package?
21:38:36 <pikhq> Think so.
21:38:57 <AnMaster> pikhq, strange the microtype docs only mention pdftex and luatex then
21:39:06 <AnMaster> <SgeoN1> Does that do what it sounds like? <-- what does it sound like?
21:39:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: It also does OpenType fonts and Unicode.
21:39:27 <SgeoN1> Like it lets you use Lua in TeX
21:39:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:41:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes I thought that was the main point of XeTeX?
21:41:15 <coppro> AnMaster: page 171 in #3
21:41:16 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, no. It is itself written in Lua mostly
21:41:18 <pikhq> Yes.
21:41:25 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, google
21:41:27 <SgeoN1> Ah.
21:41:33 <AnMaster> coppro, nice
21:41:36 <pikhq> Delicious, delicious Unicode.
21:42:25 <AnMaster> hm a TeX self-interpreter would be neat
21:42:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, ^
21:42:49 <coppro> I think it's an especially accurate description of set theory
21:43:04 <AnMaster> coppro, what? the house analogy?
21:43:07 <coppro> yeah
21:43:08 <AnMaster> probably
21:44:29 <SgeoN1> O.o at a proper name being in my dictionary
21:44:36 <SgeoN1> Must have added it at some point
21:44:39 <AnMaster> coppro, rather accurate for a lot of math. Peopled dabbled with splitting areas in infinite number of elements before integrals were invented.
21:44:40 <AnMaster> and so on
21:44:59 <coppro> true
21:45:08 <coppro> and computer science generally
21:45:22 <AnMaster> coppro, have we defined stuff there at all yet? ;P
21:45:27 <AnMaster> well to some degree
21:45:31 <AnMaster> but not much
21:46:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night).
21:47:16 <alise> pikhq: no, xetex doesn't support microtype
21:47:30 <alise> & i do suggest you use latex+microtype, but i'll let Quadrescence argue that one
21:47:35 <alise> pdflatex that is
21:47:40 <AnMaster> optical straight margins rock
21:47:46 <AnMaster> optically*
21:48:02 * SgeoN1 adds The Science of Discworld and House of Leaves to his reading list
21:48:37 <alise> AnMaster: ok, but you can stop mentioning them every five seconds now.
21:49:13 <AnMaster> alise, no
21:49:20 <AnMaster> alise, because I haven't started
21:49:24 <AnMaster> you got the interval wrong
21:49:24 <pikhq> alise: Okay, then.
21:49:33 <pikhq> alise: Good font for LaTeX, then?
21:49:34 * SgeoN1 mounts the VS2010 disc
21:49:47 <alise> pikhq: Garamond, for instance.
21:50:16 <alise> pikhq: http://gael-varoquaux.info/computers/garamond/index.html is excellent, except for that the Q is way too elaborate.
21:50:28 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, science of discworld is the first of three books. Science of Discworld II: The Globe and Science of Discworld III: Darwin's Watch
21:50:34 <AnMaster> are the next two ones
21:50:38 <SgeoN1> Is it possible to use LaTeX without making all of these visual choices?
21:50:39 <AnMaster> they rock too
21:50:57 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, that is what latex is all about
21:51:12 <alise> pikhq: If you pirate ITC New Baskerville, you can use http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/psfonts/adobe/nbaskerv/.
21:51:17 <alise> pfb format.
21:51:37 * AnMaster suddenly wants to write a book called "This book does not use tiTLeCAse
21:51:39 <AnMaster> <"
21:51:42 <SgeoN1> Is there anything where I don't have to care about such choices?
21:51:42 <AnMaster> s/<//
21:51:53 <AnMaster> this keyboard, somewhat unused to typing on it
21:52:21 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, LaTeX
21:52:44 <alise> SgeoN1: this stuff is only for control freaks.
21:52:53 <alise> LaTeX's default output is typographically perfect modulo absolute pedanticism
21:53:05 <AnMaster> <alise> pikhq: If you pirate ITC New Baskerville, you can use http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/fonts/psfonts/adobe/nbaskerv/. <-- does that support microtype?
21:53:08 <alise> (yeah, ok, *you* notice optically straight margins, but it's more a typographer's masturbation than an actual useful tool)
21:53:10 <SgeoN1> Oh, I misinterpreted anmaster
21:53:15 <alise> AnMaster: mu
21:53:21 <alise> AnMaster: font is irrelevant to microtype
21:53:29 <AnMaster> alise, Wrong. Read the docs
21:53:38 <AnMaster> alise, it is font dependant for kerning
21:53:39 <alise> AnMaster: well i don't recall it that way.
21:53:41 <AnMaster> and a few other things
21:53:43 <alise> AnMaster: ok. well.
21:53:47 <alise> AnMaster: i think latex kerns by itself
21:53:50 <alise> in fact i'm certain
21:53:53 <AnMaster> alise, check microtype docs
21:54:03 <alise> and i don't think fine-tuning kerning is on pikhq's agenda
21:54:05 <alise> so it doesn't matter.
21:54:44 <AnMaster> alise, also expansion it see
21:54:46 <AnMaster> seems*
21:54:56 <alise> but not optically straight margins, etc.
21:55:00 <alise> therefore pikhq should pirate ITC New Baskerville :P
21:55:06 <AnMaster> alise, not sure about that
21:55:08 <alise> of course baskerville doesn't work too well in print.
21:55:12 <alise> erm
21:55:14 <AnMaster> alise, link to sample of that font?
21:55:15 <alise> of course baskerville doesn't work too well on screen.
21:55:24 <alise> AnMaster: well, baskerville is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baskerville
21:55:38 <alise> afaik ITC New Baskerville is just a font of Baskerville, presumably tuned at least a /little/ bit for screen
21:55:46 <AnMaster> alise, I find CMR works nicely both on screen and in print
21:55:55 <alise> just shut up.
21:56:02 <AnMaster> alise, what did I say wrong?
21:56:09 <alise> there's nothing wrong with computer modern.
21:56:12 <alise> but are you seriously treating my
21:56:15 <alise> "baskerville sucks on screen"
21:56:20 <alise> as a request for a 'better' typeface/
21:56:21 <alise> *typeface?
21:56:36 <alise> Do you not think that some typefaces do some things better than others? That some typefaces are more suited to individual works than others?
21:56:39 <AnMaster> ... it was a side channel remark
21:56:44 <SgeoN1> Wow, imvu, which I hate, takes up a lot of space on my HD
21:56:46 <alise> It was not delivered so.
21:56:59 <SgeoN1> Yes, there are virtual worlds that I hate
21:57:00 <alise> If I set Douglas Adams in Computer Modern I'd have to commit harakiri.
21:57:21 <SgeoN1> And no, not just because its younger than 10
21:57:25 <AnMaster> <alise> Do you not think that some typefaces do some things better than others? That some typefaces are more suited to individual works than others? <-- um? Depends. Probably for titles. But not for the prose of most books.
21:57:30 <AnMaster> for special effects sure
21:57:38 <AnMaster> such as Death's voice in Discworld
21:57:47 <AnMaster> but most books don't use such stuff
21:57:51 <alise> AnMaster: Er, no. Some authors' styles are definitely more suited to some typefaces than others.
21:58:03 <alise> Or would you print a book in Comic Sans?
21:58:09 <alise> A comic, maybe; a book?
21:58:18 <alise> No? Then you admit that the best choice of typeface depends on the work.
21:58:19 <AnMaster> alise, no. No book at all.
21:58:32 <AnMaster> so no it doesn't. Comic Sans fits nowhere
21:58:34 * SgeoN1 prints alise in wingdings
21:58:48 <alise> AnMaster: comics.
21:58:50 <AnMaster> what I was trying to say however
21:58:58 <AnMaster> is that I think there are neutral fonts
21:58:58 <alise> if you really hate comic sans even for comics substitute some comic font
21:59:00 <alise> you still wouldn't set a book in it
21:59:10 <AnMaster> alise, those are not books with great lengths of prose
21:59:24 <alise> AnMaster: And would you set a very interesting and lively book - jumping through subjects - say if Feynman wrote a novel on crack - that - does that deserve a neutral font? No! surely not --
21:59:25 <pikhq> BaaahIdon'thaveitalicgaramond.
21:59:37 <alise> pikhq: Baaaahusebaskerville. BaaaahfuckXeTeX.
21:59:41 <AnMaster> alise, I have no idea
21:59:45 <SgeoN1> Um, crud, the uninstaller seems to be having some difficulties.
21:59:50 <pikhq> alise: Using pdflatex ATM.
21:59:54 <alise> pikhq: Okay <3
21:59:59 <alise> pikhq: Don't use that Garamond its Q sucks
22:00:06 <alise> You're breaking the law w/ your text anyway, just pirate a font :P
22:00:14 <pikhq> No I'm not.
22:00:25 <pikhq> "The Time Machine" is public domain.
22:00:30 <AnMaster> alise, CMR is a pretty neutral font. You can use it for novels. You can use it for articles. For most stuff
22:00:34 * SgeoN1 pirates alise
22:00:36 <alise> Oh, right.
22:00:40 <alise> pikhq: Well, who cares about copyright law.
22:00:46 <alise> AnMaster: No, Computer Modern is Didone.
22:00:51 <pikhq> Whaddya think about Palatino?
22:00:58 <alise> Papers it works for; mathematical papers are traditionally set in Modern/Didone fonts.
22:01:17 <alise> However, setting the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy in Computer Modern or, heaven forbid, even Bodoni would be a crime.
22:01:23 <SgeoN1> Next I'll just start verbing people
22:01:27 <alise> pikhq: I like me some Palatino, though note that if you're considering the URW edition it isn't quite so good.
22:01:29 <AnMaster> pikhq, nice font for math iirc
22:01:29 <alise> URW editions rarely are.
22:02:04 <pikhq> ALSONO.
22:02:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm I never saw what the point of ligatures was
22:02:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: A lack of them is ugly.
22:02:21 <AnMaster> sure they are nice. But not such a big deal
22:02:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, not really.
22:02:44 <pikhq> I demand ligatures.
22:03:05 <AnMaster> didn't English use to use a lot more of them?
22:03:07 <AnMaster> than it does now
22:03:24 * SgeoN1 demands pikhq
22:03:49 <alise> lol
22:03:59 <alise> AnMaster: take a look at "fi" in e.g. Century Schoolbook someday, unkerned
22:04:42 <SgeoN1> fi or ... that weird thing i ?
22:05:00 <alise> what?
22:06:12 <SgeoN1> Weird thing that looks like f and sounds like s
22:06:13 <pikhq> alise: New Century Schoolbook looks decent...
22:06:29 <pikhq> Baskerville is tempting, though.
22:06:43 <alise> pikhq: Century Schoolbook should be reserved for factual stuff and essays, imo.
22:06:52 <alise> It's dossier-esque.
22:07:00 <pikhq> It's The Time Machine.
22:07:06 <alise> Well, yes, but still.
22:07:13 <alise> Besides, Century Schoolbook would be an anachronism.
22:07:40 <pikhq> So it would.
22:07:49 <alise> If you can acquire Baskerville -- perhaps not necessarily ITC New Bakerville -- I'd go with that. As long as it's properly digitised, it'll look great in print and ... well, readable on screen.
22:07:58 <alise> Some Baskervilles suck, though.
22:08:05 <pikhq> I wonder what font it was published in originally.
22:08:16 <alise> Baskerville is definitely the typeface of H2G2, at least.
22:08:26 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: take a look at "fi" in e.g. Century Schoolbook someday, unkerned <-- does latex have it?
22:08:31 <AnMaster> or where do I find it
22:08:49 <alise> AnMaster: Somewhere.
22:08:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: The family is pnc, it will have actual ligatures.
22:09:03 <AnMaster> alise, ... on my ubuntu system?
22:09:07 <AnMaster> pikhq, define pnc
22:09:27 <pikhq> \fontfamily{pnc}
22:09:30 <alise> AnMaster: On the internet, at least.
22:09:34 <alise> pikhq: Indeed.
22:09:37 <alise> I produced "fi" with Word.
22:09:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah
22:09:49 -!- jillsmitt has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:10:02 <pikhq> alise: Unligatured fi makes me angry.
22:10:06 <pikhq> Very, very angry.
22:10:11 -!- poiuy_qwert has left (?).
22:10:37 <alise> Every time God sees an unligatured "fi", He rapes a kitten and kills a prostitute.
22:10:59 <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia_%28typeface%29 Ooh.
22:11:13 <pikhq> alise: What do you think of Linux Libertine O?
22:11:33 <pikhq> Oooh. Caledonia.
22:11:57 <alise> pikhq: Well, of course, it's a free font, and those almost universally suck; Libertine basically obeys that rule. What is remarkable about its O?
22:12:00 <AnMaster> <alise> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia_%28typeface%29 Ooh. <-- why on earth did I read that as "California" first
22:12:15 <pikhq> alise: What sucks about it?
22:12:31 <alise> pikhq: It's not /bad/, it just isn't nearly as /good/.
22:12:39 <pikhq> Okay, fair enough.
22:12:40 <AnMaster> alise, bitstream vera sans mono is nice for coding. Doesn't suck IMO
22:12:49 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah, uh, monospaced fonts are barely typography. Sorry.
22:13:00 <AnMaster> alise, I didn't say I wanted to typeset a book in it...
22:13:00 <alise> pikhq: Typography is very much an industry stuck in the past, really, as far as typefaces goes.
22:13:17 <pikhq> It's just that it's one of the nicer free-as-in-libre fonts I've found.
22:13:25 <AnMaster> alise, plus I consider tiny bitmapped monospace fonts for embedded use to be a noble art
22:13:41 <pikhq> (namely, it actually allows for things like "decent typesetting" and doesn't rape my eyes.)
22:13:47 <alise> pikhq: That is true. http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/ are beer rather than speech but they're damn good typefaces.
22:14:03 <alise> I really want http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/calluna.html, but don't have the money (it's one of his few paid fonts).
22:14:11 <alise> It includes the ch ligature, even!
22:14:15 <pikhq> And CJK fonts? Give up now.
22:14:35 <pikhq> Well. Print fonts for CJK that are good are a dime a dozen.
22:14:36 <alise> Also the st ligature.
22:14:41 <pikhq> Screen fonts? Give up now.
22:14:41 <alise> They're both basically rubbish ligatures though.
22:14:46 <pikhq> Hinting is *hard*.
22:14:47 <alise> "Ooh, let's draw a halo."
22:14:56 <alise> pikhq: KANJI LIGATURES.
22:14:59 <AnMaster> <alise> Also the st ligature. <-- that looks awkward
22:15:00 <alise> I am a genius.
22:15:15 <AnMaster> alise, and the ck ligature is just "wtf"
22:15:22 <alise> AnMaster: It's antique; good for gaols, for instance when setting a rime.
22:15:40 <AnMaster> gaols?
22:15:52 <AnMaster> "gaol - jail: a correctional institution used to detain persons who are in the lawful custody of the government (either accused persons awaiting trial or convicted persons serving a sentence)" <-- wtf?
22:16:00 <alise> The British English spelling for jail; now archaic but quite recently the preferred spelling.
22:16:11 <coppro> it's still used in some legal circles
22:16:14 <alise> For instance the OED preferred it in the 60s.
22:16:17 <AnMaster> alise, please make sense
22:16:24 <alise> "Rime" the same, but for "rhyme".
22:16:26 <alise> AnMaster: Err, what?
22:16:28 <alise> I've made perfect sense.
22:16:35 <coppro> I got caught up when reading court documents and seeing someone sentenced to gaol time
22:16:38 <pikhq> That's one of the American English spellings that came about because of just settling on a different standard.
22:16:40 <alise> pikhq: Argh, what's the name of that typeface... Minlot or something...
22:16:41 <AnMaster> alise, how can you typeset a jail
22:16:44 <AnMaster> -_-
22:16:46 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined.
22:16:47 <alise> AnMaster: ...
22:16:50 <alise> AnMaster: you're retarded.
22:16:55 <AnMaster> alise, tired
22:16:57 <alise> <alise> AnMaster: It's antique; good for gaols, for instance when setting a rime.
22:17:04 <alise> Good for gaols to use when typesetting a rime.
22:17:32 <alise> Minion.
22:17:36 <AnMaster> alise, "good for jails to use when typesetting a rhyme"?
22:17:39 <pikhq> Calluna is gorgeous.
22:17:39 <AnMaster> what
22:17:43 <alise> pikhq: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minion_%28typeface%29
22:17:49 <alise> Minion's a good one.
22:17:55 <AnMaster> alise, or is there some idiom in there
22:18:19 <alise> AnMaster: Umm... if a jail wanted to typeset some rhyming poetry and print it to stick on the walls or something?
22:18:29 <alise> This isn't difficult.
22:18:39 <AnMaster> alise, sure... but that doesn't make much sense in the original context :P
22:18:57 <alise> AnMaster: I was using antique spellings to demonstrate the antiquity of the ck and st ligatures.
22:19:07 <pikhq> alise: http://www.josbuivenga.demon.nl/tallys.html If only this had italic.
22:19:14 <AnMaster> alise, oh... duh
22:19:30 <calamari> fi fl ffl
22:19:49 <AnMaster> calamari, looks awesome in dejavu sans mono 9pt here :P
22:20:09 <calamari> btw the vga bios rom font is the best for coding ;)
22:20:09 <alise> pikhq: It /is/ slightly slanted.
22:20:15 <alise> pikhq: I find it's not very good for text, though (I tried).
22:20:44 <pikhq> alise: Aaaaw.
22:21:21 <calamari> I'm sure that rom font is perfectly horrible, but I got used to it over the space of many years
22:21:34 <calamari> and now I must have it
22:22:03 <pikhq> Bah, use Unifont.
22:22:06 <pikhq> :P
22:22:19 -!- jillsmitt has joined.
22:22:20 <coppro> yes
22:22:26 <coppro> too bad it's BMP-only
22:22:49 <pikhq> Which is better coverage than almost every other font...
22:23:21 <coppro> sure, but it's just Not Enough
22:23:32 <coppro> (Of course, I keep Unifont installed as a fallback)
22:23:38 <calamari> fontforge ftw
22:23:52 <pikhq> There should be a font covering all of Unicode.
22:23:54 <alise> pikhq: Gentium is quite decent, http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&cat_id=FontDownloadsGentium, but OpenType-only and therefore has cooties.
22:24:00 <alise> pikhq: As I said. Let's make one!
22:24:07 <alise> We could call it ShitFont.
22:24:10 <pikhq> alise: Ah, yeah. Gentium's nice.
22:24:11 <alise> It could be shitty but comprehensive.
22:24:26 <alise> In fact, it could be monospaced. For, say, if you wanted to make a grid of Unicode characters like in UniCode/Unikitten.
22:24:31 <pikhq> BTW, the nice thing about XeLaTeX is that you can use those OpenType fonts.
22:24:46 <alise> Also, Unifont is bitmapped.
22:24:53 <calamari> you could start it by combining some open source fonts
22:24:53 <pikhq> Yes, Unifont is bitmapped.
22:24:57 <alise> Oh, it was vectorised!
22:25:02 <alise> The font has subsequently been vectorised and converted to TrueType format[1][2] , and merged back the improvements to 20,000 CJK glyphs done by WenQuanYi Unibit font[3].
22:25:07 <pikhq> 'Vectorised'.
22:25:15 <pikhq> It was converted into squares.
22:25:28 <alise> [[GNU Unifont is a typography distributed in hexadecimal textual format, with support for more than 30000 characters. It is a "bitmap" typography whose characters can be of 8x8 or 8x16 pixels, according to its width.]]
22:25:32 <alise> [[Because of this, and because TrueType has become the used standard more for vectorial sources, it was necessary a version of this typography in Truetype format.]]
22:25:38 <alise> It's a typography, also available in vectorial format.
22:25:39 -!- SevenInchBread has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:25:52 <calamari> you don't need to vectorize anymore.. ttf allows you to include bitmapped fonts in the ttf
22:30:09 <alise> http://www.emhsoft.com/singularity/
22:30:21 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Bye).
22:30:51 <alise> rms: rms M. Stallman
22:31:08 <AnMaster> <pikhq> There should be a font covering all of Unicode. <-- A lot of unicode is free space
22:31:45 <coppro> we'll put naughty doodles in that space
22:31:47 <Gregor> What an absurd response.
22:31:55 <Gregor> What an absurd response to an absurd response.
22:32:00 <AnMaster> true
22:32:17 <AnMaster> also doesn't Bitstream Cyberbit cover most?
22:32:48 <alise> coppro: i love that idea
22:33:06 <coppro> ERROR: This Unicode is invalid. PENIS
22:33:09 <alise> "And here is unicode U+E8F9, 'VAGINA COMPOSED OF SMELL PENISES'."
22:33:14 <alise> *SMALL
22:34:05 <alise> U+E8FB: DEPICTION OF "69" SEXUAL ACT
22:34:11 <AnMaster> alise, better idea: make it just a lot of dashes that when put in a grid of the right dimensions form a huge naughty picture
22:34:15 <AnMaster> that hides it kind of
22:34:17 <alise> just make a different naughty doodle for every single unallocated character
22:34:29 <alise> U+FFFF: GOATSE
22:34:44 <AnMaster> alise, how many unallocated chars are there?
22:35:08 <alise> tons
22:35:08 <coppro> U+9FFFF: BOOBIES
22:35:10 <alise> most of it
22:35:20 <AnMaster> alise, right, then my idea is more viable
22:35:25 <Gregor> I agree with alise 115%.
22:35:53 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:35:53 <alise> oh
22:35:58 <alise> the best thing about having the last char be goatse
22:36:04 <Gregor> The best letters in that block are of course L, G, B, T and Q.
22:36:07 <alise> is that on Mac OS X it's an Apple logo
22:36:09 <alise> so...
22:36:24 <Ilari> There are only 17 planes of 65534 codepoints (except plane 0 which has some additional special codes that are not valid codepoints).
22:36:47 <coppro> yes
22:37:01 <Ilari> So last valid codepoint number is 0x10FFFD.
22:37:04 <alise> Gregor: I'm trying to get B to be a sexual act and failing terribly, unless it's something strange like "anus being eaten by formless slot in wall"
22:37:08 <coppro> don't forget the code points left deliberately unassigned
22:38:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, Bitstream Cyberbit doesn't support "most of Unicode".
22:38:12 <pikhq> Doesn't even get all of the BMP.
22:38:17 <coppro> U+10FFFE is a code point to
22:38:19 <coppro> *too
22:38:28 <Ilari> IIRC, it isn't valid.
22:38:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm
22:38:53 <AnMaster> <coppro> don't forget the code points left deliberately unassigned <-- such as?
22:39:00 <AnMaster> and why?
22:39:17 <AnMaster> there are surrogate pairs for UTF-16 and such iirc
22:39:19 <pikhq> AnMaster: They leave parts of blocks unassigned for future expansion.
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22:39:30 <coppro> also they like blocks to be round number sizes
22:39:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes and there is also a private use area
22:39:33 <pikhq> For instance, the currency symbol block has about 20 characters unassigned.
22:39:35 <coppro> so a script may not occupy the full blcok
22:39:44 <coppro> s/co/oc/
22:39:48 <AnMaster> coppro, powers of 10 or powers of two?
22:39:53 <pikhq> Two.
22:39:58 <Ilari> I think there are 2080 codepoints in range 0-10FFFD that aren't valid.
22:39:58 <alise> 16
22:39:59 <AnMaster> understandable then
22:39:59 <alise> you mean
22:40:11 <AnMaster> alise, maybe multiples of 16?
22:40:12 <coppro> also, then entirety of planes F and 10 are private use areas
22:40:16 <alise> huh, midori is part of xfce now
22:40:23 <alise> AnMaster: er right
22:40:24 <AnMaster> alise, powers of 16 would be... annoying
22:40:30 <alise> powers of 60
22:40:35 <AnMaster> that too
22:40:41 <AnMaster> alise, Babylonian iirc?
22:40:55 <alise> yes
22:41:05 <coppro> Wikipedia says that 66 points are noncharacter code poitns
22:41:25 <pikhq> alise: The problem with creating a pan-Unicode font is one-fold.
22:41:32 <coppro> plus there's the two surrogate ranges
22:41:35 <pikhq> Chinese characters are hard.
22:41:43 <alise> pikhq: Meh. We can just do scribbles.
22:41:51 <coppro> and the private use areas (two planes + U+E000-U+F8FF)
22:41:55 <alise> pikhq: We can have it be sans-serif for easiness, and let it be bitmap for easiness.
22:41:59 <CakeProphet> QUEEN OF FRANCE
22:42:04 <alise> And just doodle each character then make things slightly straighter.
22:42:05 <alise> Tada.
22:42:26 <Ilari> (2048 characters for surrogates and 32 codepoints that are xFFFE or xFFFF.)
22:42:30 <pikhq> alise: There's 107,361 characters in Unicode. 70% of that is CJK.
22:42:39 <CakeProphet> just replace all the chinese characters with various American propaganda
22:42:41 <CakeProphet> and dicks
22:43:19 <CakeProphet> you could have one of Abraham Lincoln assraping Mao Zedong.
22:43:21 <CakeProphet> :)
22:43:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, the Chinese are hogging space then ;P
22:44:06 <pikhq> AnMaster: And there's room for 1,114,112 characters.
22:44:09 <alise> pikhq: Meh. We can do that.
22:44:21 <AnMaster> alise, another idea: combine various free fonts to get a decent "starting set" then do doodles for the rest
22:44:23 <alise> pikhq: Thank God for Han Unification :P
22:44:30 <alise> AnMaster: that's boring, that's what the OS does already
22:44:30 <pikhq> alise: :P
22:44:32 <alise> minus the doodles
22:44:39 <AnMaster> alise, hm true
22:45:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, argh we need unicode2. 128 bits per char
22:45:09 <alise> with doodles, we can sustain the common theme of crap doodles.
22:45:18 <AnMaster> alise, well true
22:45:34 <CakeProphet> alise: just add in like... Middle Earth script. And various other fantasy setting scripts.
22:45:43 <alise> pikhq: we could be lazy as fuck and have an ascii format where some special chars denote stems and stuff, so it could automatically make a true italic (not slanted)
22:45:53 <Ilari> Nah, just extend the space (like old versions of ISO-10646-1 had). Plenty more codepoints there.
22:45:59 <alise> pikhq: ooh, and have it interpolate vector curves from like < > \ /
22:46:03 <coppro> AnMaster: why do we need 128 bits for Unicode?
22:46:05 <alise> so we could have the world's worst vector font
22:46:21 <AnMaster> coppro, .. you didn't get the ip joke?
22:46:22 <alise> coppro: the post-singularity universal language
22:46:31 <alise> AnMaster: ... what?
22:46:33 <coppro> AnMaster: no, no I didn't
22:46:35 <alise> you really suck at making jokes
22:46:49 <AnMaster> ipv4 = 32 bits = unicode
22:46:57 <alise> i think AnMaster thinks of something vaguely amusing in his head then tells us the conclusion without bothering to provide any other part of the joke.
22:46:58 <coppro> should have been Unicodev6
22:47:06 <coppro> alise: I do this all the time
22:47:15 <AnMaster> coppro, well it hasn't reached unicode4 yet
22:47:16 <coppro> Unicode 2 has come and gone
22:47:19 <AnMaster> so that doesn't work
22:47:24 <AnMaster> oh has it?
22:47:27 <coppro> uh, yes
22:47:32 <alise> coppro: well, you're never completely inexplicable.
22:47:33 <AnMaster> coppro, I never heard any version number for unicode
22:47:34 <coppro> the most recent release was 5.2
22:47:35 <alise> AnMaster: we're up to unicode 5 dude
22:47:40 <AnMaster> huh
22:48:09 <pikhq> It may also be a pain encoding the other ideographic scripts in Unicode.
22:48:11 * coppro wants Tengwar to be approved
22:48:39 <AnMaster> I wonder what will happen when we run out of ipv4. How long is left? The economic down turn probably slowed it down a bit... but not much
22:48:40 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:48:46 <coppro> AnMaster: very near
22:48:54 <coppro> what will happen is the world will panic for a little while
22:48:56 <AnMaster> yet I don't have native ipv6
22:48:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: Year.
22:49:00 <pikhq> 1 year.
22:49:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, right
22:49:20 <coppro> then IPv6 will get 'announced' and people will pay far too much for stuff that supports it
22:49:25 <AnMaster> coppro, well I don't have native ipv6. My ISP has one block assigned
22:49:25 -!- wareya has joined.
22:49:35 <coppro> a /48?
22:49:45 <AnMaster> coppro, don't remember
22:49:54 <AnMaster> checked some looking glass thingy or whatever
22:50:05 <AnMaster> coppro, wait what? Computers already have it
22:50:13 <AnMaster> only my ADSL modem would need upgrading
22:50:34 <AnMaster> my ISP surely need to upgrade their stuff too, but not a lot of that
22:50:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: That wouldn't need upgrading.
22:50:50 <AnMaster> coppro, also the world should be panicing already
22:50:56 <pikhq> Your ADSL modem doesn't even know what IP is.
22:50:59 <coppro> yes
22:51:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, it does. It does NAT too
22:51:08 <coppro> but they won't until 6 months after we run out
22:51:12 <AnMaster> one unit
22:51:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, also wlan
22:51:25 <coppro> AnMaster: I'm talking about what will actually happen
22:51:34 <AnMaster> coppro, true
22:51:41 <pikhq> coppro: Yeah, we should be entirely on IPv6 by now.
22:51:43 <AnMaster> 6 months *after* huh?
22:51:47 <coppro> yes
22:51:49 <coppro> people r dum
22:51:53 <AnMaster> why 6 months after
22:51:57 <AnMaster> rather than exactly when
22:51:58 <pikhq> But, unfortunately, it'll take longer than that.
22:51:59 <coppro> I already have IPv6 connectivity and, IIRC, my ISP allocates /32 blocks to individual houses or something like that
22:52:06 <coppro> AnMaster: I repeat what I said
22:52:08 <coppro> people r dum
22:52:13 <AnMaster> coppro, right...
22:52:27 <AnMaster> coppro, I have a nice and fast sixxs tunnel. I'll survive
22:52:30 <AnMaster> when at home
22:52:32 <coppro> the big fun bit will be people complaining that <LAN game here> doesn't work
22:52:35 <AnMaster> a bit more tricky at university
22:52:35 <pikhq> When the management goes "We want new servers", and they get told "We can't without upgrading all of everything".
22:52:42 <AnMaster> coppro, what?
22:52:45 <pikhq> *Then* they'll start switching.
22:52:55 <coppro> that will be the #1 thing you hear about most, I assure you
22:53:00 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:53:05 <AnMaster> pikhq, OSes already support ipv6
22:53:06 <pikhq> coppro: ... /32 blocks? */32 blocks*?!?!?
22:53:09 <pikhq> coppro: WHAT THE HELL.
22:53:10 <coppro> pikhq: yes
22:53:16 <coppro> that's how much space IPv6 has
22:53:19 <coppro> it's nutters
22:53:21 <AnMaster> wait
22:53:29 <AnMaster> is /32 from start or end?
22:53:30 <AnMaster> I forgot
22:53:33 <Ilari> Aren't the usual site assignments /48?
22:53:33 <coppro> oh wait, start
22:53:37 <coppro> I'm thinking the other way around
22:53:43 <coppro> I meant /96
22:53:45 <coppro> it's still ridiculous
22:53:48 <pikhq> Ilari: A usual individual assignment is a /64 block.
22:53:50 <Deewiant> It doesn't matter, it's lots either way
22:53:51 <pikhq> coppro: That's borken.
22:53:58 <coppro> I forget the exact number
22:54:09 <coppro> all I remember is 'way too big'
22:54:09 <pikhq> Individual users should be assigned /64s.
22:54:15 <alise> isn't the smallest ipv6 allocation being handed out enough to contain all of ipv4 and then some?
22:54:15 <coppro> okay, maybe that's it then
22:54:23 <alise> you'd think they'd learn from their past mistakes and use discretion.
22:54:26 <coppro> I don't recall specifically
22:54:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed
22:54:28 <Ilari> /64 is assigned to individual LAN segment.
22:54:34 <alise> sure, maybe we have the space, but do you NEED those IPs? all of them?
22:54:38 <coppro> ok, then my ISP is giving out /64
22:54:43 <alise> also, we're doing fine on IPv4 because of NATs.
22:54:46 <coppro> on the plus side, LAN will hopefully die a nice death
22:54:47 <pikhq> alise: The point of /64 is to be able to have the other half of the IP address be the MAC address.
22:54:57 <alise> How big is /64 again?
22:55:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think I have a /48 from sixxs. Can't check from this computer
22:55:05 <alise> Also, that's an awful hack.
22:55:06 <coppro> alise: 64 bits
22:55:09 <pikhq> 2^64-1.
22:55:15 <alise> Awful awful hack.
22:55:16 <AnMaster> plus sharing my block to rest of lan is completely broken
22:55:20 <pikhq> Also, that's how IPv6 autonegotiation works.
22:55:27 <AnMaster> <pikhq> 2^64-1. <-- -1? Signed?
22:55:43 <Ilari> IIRC, 2^64 as there are no reserved addresses.
22:55:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, 0 is the network address.
22:55:47 -!- SevenInchBread has joined.
22:55:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, ah
22:55:49 <alise> That ... makes no sense as "signed".
22:55:53 <coppro> isn't 255 the gateway address, thus removing one more?
22:56:09 <AnMaster> 255 isn't broadcast is it?
22:56:13 <coppro> err, yes
22:56:14 <AnMaster> under ipv6 I mean
22:56:19 <coppro> something like that
22:56:21 <coppro> it's reserved I think
22:56:21 <AnMaster> it is under ipv4
22:56:25 <AnMaster> but not under ipv6 iirc
22:56:35 <coppro> oh
22:56:42 <coppro> IN ANY CASE
22:57:50 <coppro> query: what is the correct way to ask for a full DNS lookup and get a manual printout?
22:58:03 <AnMaster> using a query
22:58:05 * AnMaster runs
22:58:20 <AnMaster> coppro, but do you mean a zone transfer?
22:58:35 <alise> pikhq: Let's implement Xlib! Aiee.
22:58:41 <SevenInchBread> I hate my terrible internet connection
22:58:48 <coppro> AnMaster: I just want to see all the records for a domain
22:58:53 <coppro> in human-readable format
22:59:04 <pikhq> alise: NO
22:59:08 <alise> coppro: "dig poop.com"
22:59:15 <AnMaster> coppro, zone transfer then. Pretty much forbidden by all dns servers for non-slave servers.
22:59:17 -!- SevenInchBread has changed nick to CakeProphet.
22:59:33 <AnMaster> basically only slaves are allowed to do zone transfers from the master. That is all
22:59:46 <coppro> what's a zone transfer?
22:59:58 <AnMaster> coppro, dumping an entire domain basically
23:00:32 <coppro> what a dumb name
23:00:35 <AnMaster> coppro, you need that + some pretty printing. Though IMO the format of bind et al is pretty readable
23:00:37 <AnMaster> coppro, not at all
23:00:45 <AnMaster> coppro, a zone could be less than a domain
23:00:51 <AnMaster> though domains are usually the zones
23:01:01 <AnMaster> coppro, also you could do a zone transfer on a tld
23:01:09 <AnMaster> coppro, so yes it makes perfect sense
23:01:39 <alise> coppro: just use dig
23:01:41 <alise> dig google.com
23:01:43 <alise> no?
23:01:43 <coppro> ah, frick
23:01:45 <AnMaster> alise, doesn't dump all
23:01:47 <coppro> yeah, dig works fine
23:01:55 <coppro> I can list the record types I'm after
23:01:57 <alise> AnMaster: yeah, uh, coppro meant something totally different to what you meant
23:01:58 <coppro> it's good enough
23:02:01 <AnMaster> dig mail.google.com
23:02:02 <AnMaster> try that
23:02:02 <alise> which is why you're being so confusing and obscure
23:02:06 <AnMaster> not included in
23:02:08 <AnMaster> dig google.com
23:02:13 <alise> of course not
23:02:14 <alise> he meant all records
23:02:17 <alise> not all records for all subdomains
23:02:30 <AnMaster> alise, then I misunderstood him
23:02:47 <alise> indeed.
23:02:51 <AnMaster> it sounded like he meant a zone transfer to me
23:03:39 <AnMaster> https://www.sixxs.net/main/ <-- lovely, blue lines around linked images. You don't see that often nowdays on any page using css at all
23:04:13 <AnMaster> strange though.. I remembered it as more styled...
23:04:42 <alise> AnMaster: the css hasn't loaded for you
23:04:44 <alise> there are no such borders
23:04:47 <alise> and it is styled
23:04:50 <AnMaster> alise, strange...
23:04:52 <alise> or rather, parts of the css haven't loaded
23:04:55 <alise> say ones in @import
23:05:00 <alise> try ctrl+f5
23:05:03 <AnMaster> ctrl-shift-r doesn't help
23:05:21 * AnMaster prods browser
23:07:52 <coppro> what's an SOA record?
23:08:09 <AnMaster> <Something> of Authority
23:08:40 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DNS_record_types#SOA
23:08:52 <AnMaster> Start of Authority
23:09:01 <AnMaster> contains TTL amongst other things
23:09:34 * AnMaster sshs to a nameserver to check some stuff (bind, ugh, but not mine)
23:09:51 <AnMaster> (or rather, I didn't set it up, just have admin access to it)
23:11:01 <SgeoN1> Of 10 gb I finally managed to free, 6 are going to Visual Studio
23:11:20 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, ... why on earth
23:11:23 <SgeoN1> 7
23:11:23 <AnMaster> MSVC is crap
23:11:39 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, why not download it from home instead
23:11:39 <alise> AnMaster: SgeoN1 is brain-addled by c#.
23:11:55 <AnMaster> oh C#... even worse
23:11:57 <SgeoN1> Download it from home?
23:12:03 <AnMaster> SgeoN1, compared to over N1
23:12:13 <alise> i think he's only ircing via n1
23:12:15 <alise> god knows why
23:12:29 <AnMaster> alise, I mean obviously over a phone would be expensive. But ADSL tends to be unlimited traffic
23:12:46 <alise> He isn't using his phone to download it.
23:13:04 <AnMaster> alise, then... what the fuck XD
23:13:13 <AnMaster> the gb stuff doesn't make ANY sense
23:13:14 <alise> IRCing via N1 for some reason I presume.
23:13:20 <alise> AnMaster: He didn't have much space on his computer.
23:13:25 <AnMaster> oh
23:13:31 <AnMaster> alise, then why the "free" bit
23:13:31 <alise> He freed 10 GiB of it, and is using 7 GiB for Visual Studio.
23:13:34 -!- SgeoN1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:13:35 <AnMaster> oh right
23:13:38 <alise> AnMaster: You're low on memory
23:13:40 <alise> You free memory.
23:13:40 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:13:43 <alise> What does this give you?
23:13:43 <alise> Memory.
23:13:46 <alise> *low on memory.
23:13:46 <AnMaster> alise, I thought free as in "free download"
23:13:54 <SgeoN1> I'm Jr downloading over n1
23:13:56 <SgeoN1> Not
23:14:00 <AnMaster> good
23:14:08 <alise> Not ~= Jr.
23:14:11 * AnMaster has over 2/3 of a TB unallocated
23:14:32 <AnMaster> I love lvm2
23:14:48 <alise> lvm2 is like headache in a kernel module.
23:15:00 <alise> I miss the simple life.
23:15:02 <AnMaster> alise, why?
23:15:07 <AnMaster> alise, also most is user spacew
23:15:09 <AnMaster> space*
23:15:15 <AnMaster> alise, in the kernel it is just device mapper
23:15:16 <AnMaster> very simple
23:15:41 <AnMaster> alise, basically the kernel gets a list of byte ranges to map into one device
23:15:53 <AnMaster> alise, that is all
23:16:02 <alise> AnMaster: LVM is quite complicated to set up, in fact I will say "bitch" -- do not disagree, compare installing normally to installing with lvm -- and maybe your favourite distro automates lvm setup but it won't be general, and crazy stuff is what lvm is for -- and its tools use obscure terminology, introducing like 500 terms just for precision
23:16:02 <AnMaster> the tricky stuff is all done in user space
23:16:17 <alise> basically it's dumping a whole alien world on yourself and really i'd much rather just deal with extra partitions, I am but a simple man.
23:16:25 <AnMaster> alise, dude I use arch. And lvm on top of software raid
23:16:28 <AnMaster> it isn't complex
23:16:37 <AnMaster> okay the learning curve is steep
23:16:44 <alise> Precisely.
23:16:44 <SgeoN1> I wonder if I'll free up a comparable amount by uninstalling VS2008
23:16:46 <AnMaster> I agree with that
23:16:52 <alise> It's easier to learn to use both vim and Emacs well than to learn LVM.
23:16:55 <AnMaster> alise, but it is a wonderful bliss once you learnt the tools
23:16:58 <alise> Or at least when I tried I pretty much just cried.
23:17:16 <alise> AnMaster: Okay. I wager that your life is not significantly better than mine, or at least it won't be once I'm out of this mess.
23:17:18 <alise> I don't use LVM.
23:17:24 <pikhq> I use LVM.
23:17:26 <AnMaster> alise, you don't use all the options. I know what I use + a knowledge of what exists in what tool
23:17:28 <alise> I didn't go through the learning curve.
23:17:30 <alise> Therefore I win!
23:17:37 <pikhq> I spent a few days learning it.
23:17:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes it took no more than that for me either
23:17:47 <pikhq> Royal pain, but it was nice afterwards.
23:17:49 <alise> AnMaster: The option of LVM didn't exist way, way back and nobody particularly cried about it.
23:18:05 <alise> People need to stop having ideas. :P
23:18:05 <AnMaster> ...
23:18:17 <coppro> I have an idea
23:18:19 <AnMaster> alise, yes drop haskell and everything. Lets go back to FORTRAN
23:18:20 <pikhq> And I use Gentoo; it is very much manual setup there.
23:18:26 <alise> coppro: NO STOP IT
23:18:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, about the same under arch
23:18:37 <alise> dreams too, no more dreams
23:18:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: No, no. We could've stopped with Lisp.
23:18:45 <alise> nelson mandela is the WORST PERSON EVER
23:18:47 <alise> also what pikhq said :P
23:18:48 <AnMaster> pikhq, ASM!
23:18:51 <coppro> An idea where all sciences are equal...
23:19:01 <pikhq> AnMaster: Is its installer "here's a shell"?
23:19:15 <alise> pikhq: Gentoo has an actual installer now ...
23:19:25 <pikhq> alise: No longer supported!
23:19:26 <AnMaster> pikhq, no but the installer has no clue about software raid or lvm
23:19:30 <SgeoN1> At least I'll get a chance to try F#
23:19:30 <AnMaster> so you need to do that yourself
23:19:33 <alise> pikhq: Oh.
23:19:34 <alise> pikhq: Lovely.
23:19:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, yay!
23:19:44 <alise> AnMaster: installer did last i used it
23:19:45 <alise> iirc
23:20:05 <alise> AnMaster just said "yay" to "we no longer support installing without wanting to kill yourself".
23:20:09 <pikhq> alise: Because all the maintainers for it left.
23:20:11 <AnMaster> alise, well you need to set it up in advance and tell it to use specific parts
23:20:13 <AnMaster> afaik
23:20:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, arch installer is ncurses based. Quite nice
23:20:49 <AnMaster> alise, because gentoo install is not tricky.
23:20:58 <AnMaster> I always did stage3
23:21:24 <pikhq> Stage1 and Stage2 are no longer supported.
23:21:46 <alise> AnMaster: so? there's no reason for people not to have an easier option
23:21:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, never tried those
23:21:50 <alise> is stage3 the wimpy one or stage1?
23:21:56 <alise> which one involves compiling EVERY FUCKING THING
23:21:58 <alise> stage1?
23:22:01 <pikhq> The primary reason for that is because, well. All the reasoning behind it was sheer bullshit.
23:22:04 <AnMaster> stage1 is more minimal
23:22:16 <pikhq> alise: Stage3 is a functioning install in a tarball.
23:22:28 <alise> pikhq: It's no longer "compile everything"?!
23:22:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, emerge -e world solves the issue
23:22:34 <alise> What has Gentoo become?
23:22:46 <pikhq> Basically, you just need to install a few packages where there's multiple choices and write some config files.
23:22:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed
23:23:14 <pikhq> And those tarballs are generated weekly.
23:23:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, also re-emerge stuff after changing useflags
23:23:18 <alise> god i remember booting up a gentoo livecd and going into #gentoo and going hey so is the stuff about a 24 hour install really true it isn't is it ha ha let's laugh at that
23:23:25 <alise> "Well... actually, yeah, it does take about 24 hours."
23:23:27 <alise> [rage]
23:23:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, that often? Should try it out again in a chroot or vm
23:23:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, it's now an autogen'd tarball and live CD.
23:23:52 <AnMaster> alise, what? You didn't believe that?
23:24:01 <AnMaster> also it takes 6 hours on a fast computer
23:24:05 <AnMaster> and once you know it
23:24:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, hm nice. Makes the rolling release even more rolling
23:24:20 <pikhq> Unless you want OpenOffice. :P
23:24:20 <AnMaster> :)
23:24:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, openoffice-bin=?
23:24:30 <pikhq> OpenOffice takes 2 fucking hours. Such pure shit.
23:24:30 <AnMaster> s/=//
23:24:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Thas not 64-bit.
23:24:39 <alise> why would you want openoffice
23:24:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, no open office takes 8 hours or such iirc
23:24:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, maybe on YOUR system :P
23:24:55 <pikhq> alise: You wouldn't, but that's beside the point. :P
23:25:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: See, *this* is why you should upgrade.
23:25:11 <pikhq> Your computer is *6* *years* *old*.
23:25:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, you send me the money=
23:25:17 <AnMaster> s/=/?/
23:25:26 <alise> "What would you like for breakfast?" "A shit sandwich, please!" "But that takes seven years to prepare! And it's made out of shit!" "Shit sandwich, please!"
23:25:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, not this one. About a year and a half.
23:25:33 <alise> AnMaster: oh come on, you have the money.
23:25:37 <pikhq> alise: Tee.
23:25:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, my thinkpad
23:25:47 <AnMaster> alise, no I'm a student
23:25:48 <alise> pikhq: Is that a contraction of "tee hee"?
23:25:51 <AnMaster> that should tell you all
23:25:52 <pikhq> AnMaster: Okay, yeah; that one should be faster.
23:25:54 <pikhq> alise: Yes.
23:26:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, intel graphics though
23:26:03 <alise> AnMaster: a student from an upper-class family
23:26:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, core 2 duo at 2.26 GHz
23:26:23 <AnMaster> alise, upper middle class
23:26:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:26:26 <AnMaster> not upper class
23:26:28 <pikhq> alise: Actually, try "a student from a land where college doesn't cost a year's pay".
23:26:58 <pikhq> Oh, wait. !US, hence only "university" is valid.
23:27:04 <alise> AnMaster: Your father is a professor and your mother is a journalist. And university is cheap in Europe. Unless the definition of class has changed recently, you're upper-class and you have enough money to buy a $200-$300 computer which would suck less.
23:27:20 <alise> pikhq: Well, "college" in the UK means "sixth form college", the education after "high school" from 16 to 18.
23:27:29 <AnMaster> alise, professors doesn't get as much money over here as they do in UK.
23:27:31 <AnMaster> I bet
23:27:45 <alise> AnMaster: Well, nobody gets as much money in Sweden because of the tax.
23:27:51 <AnMaster> indeed
23:27:53 <alise> I think journalists are pretty well-paid everywhere, though.
23:28:02 <AnMaster> alise, *former journalist*
23:28:08 <AnMaster> also for a local newspaper
23:28:08 <alise> Okay, fair enough.
23:28:18 <alise> My robotic memory has failed me.
23:28:21 <AnMaster> not one of the big country ones
23:28:30 <alise> Snarky comment time: does anything in a local newspaper really count as "journalism"?
23:28:41 <alise> The Hexham Courant is the biggest waste of trees I've ever read.
23:28:47 <alise> And that covers a large area!
23:28:48 <AnMaster> though she told me she was offered a job at one of the big daily ones but didn't want to move so she said no
23:29:02 <pikhq> AnMaster: In the US "college" refers to any post-secondary education.
23:29:05 <pikhq> Erm.
23:29:06 <pikhq> alise: ^
23:29:33 <pikhq> (except for schools which don't offer *degrees*, I should say.)
23:29:40 <alise> Current UK educational system:
23:29:41 <AnMaster> alise, to be fair, it was one of the better local ones.
23:30:01 <alise> Oh god, I'd better look up the ages.
23:30:18 <pikhq> Also, does anything in a *newspaper* really count as "journalism" any more?
23:30:31 <pikhq> I mean, those are freaking Murdoch rags now, right?
23:30:39 <alise> Indeed.
23:30:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, it did back then. Oh and we have two good country wide news papers here. US != rest of world when it comes to news paper
23:30:50 <AnMaster> also Murdoch is not in Sweden
23:30:50 <AnMaster> at all
23:31:01 <AnMaster> at least not for any of the big ones
23:31:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: Count your lucky stars that Murdoch is not in Sweden.
23:31:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know
23:31:20 <pikhq> Murdoch single-handedly murders objective reporting.
23:31:25 <AnMaster> pikhq, we don't have walmart of radioshack either
23:31:26 <AnMaster> :D
23:31:39 <AnMaster> s/of/or/
23:32:07 <pikhq> I doubt you have the population layout for Walmart to function.
23:32:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, huh?
23:32:35 <alise> Nursery: 3 to 4.
23:32:35 <alise> Reception: 4 to 5.
23:32:35 <alise> First school: 5 to 9.
23:32:35 <alise> Middle school: 9 to 13.
23:32:35 <alise> High school: 13 to 15.
23:32:36 <alise> Sixth form college: 16 to 18.
23:32:38 <alise> University: 18 to bearded and banana-eating.
23:32:40 <alise> Often, high school and sixth form are combined.
23:32:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, also I don't think we have starbucks but I could be wrong. None around here at least. Maybe in the big cities. *shrug*
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23:33:11 <alise> Nursery and reception are provided in the first school.
23:33:34 <alise> In the old, two-tier system, primary school = first school and half of high school, secondary school = second half of high school and sixth form.
23:33:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, we have ICA, Lidels, IKEA, KF and some other ones
23:33:40 <pikhq> AnMaster: How many places have both a decent population density and the room for a store that takes up 9,476.1 m^2, not counting the freaking gigantic parking lot, in Sweden?
23:33:51 <AnMaster> probably only Lidels (German in origin) and IKEA are known outside
23:33:57 <pikhq> That's the *average* size, BTW.
23:34:08 <pikhq> Oh wait.
23:34:14 <pikhq> That's the average size of the "discount stores".
23:34:24 <pikhq> 18,301.9 m^2.
23:34:29 <AnMaster> huh
23:34:34 <pikhq> Thar.
23:34:38 <AnMaster> pikhq, no clue. Why so large
23:34:44 <alise> AnMaster: PRODUCTS. MORE PRODUCTS.
23:34:54 <AnMaster> plus I have no concept of how large 18,301.9 m² actually is
23:34:55 <alise> Lidel? Is that how you Swedish spell Lidl?
23:35:04 <alise> LIDL are immoral, btw.
23:35:04 <AnMaster> alise, no, it is how I typod it :P
23:35:10 <pikhq> AnMaster: They have just about everything.
23:35:10 <alise> I forget why.
23:35:12 <alise> Some scandal.
23:35:16 <AnMaster> alise, and yes they are known as being immoral here too
23:35:22 <alise> AnMaster: You have Aldi, I know that.
23:35:26 <alise> Aldi are like Lidl except not immoral.
23:35:27 <AnMaster> alise, Aldi?
23:35:33 <AnMaster> I never heard of this
23:35:33 <alise> ...
23:35:43 <alise> Okay, you don't have Aldi.
23:35:45 <alise> Just checked.
23:35:50 <AnMaster> right
23:36:09 <alise> AnMaster: Basically like Lidl: everything own-brand discount supermarket. But nicer.
23:36:10 <AnMaster> alise, we have pretty much our own chains. Lidl is running at a loss in Sweden iirc.
23:36:30 <alise> I like IKEA.
23:36:38 <alise> Except for their crazy tax dodges.
23:36:39 <pikhq> Supermarket, garden center, pet shop, pharmacy, tire & oil changing, glasses, photo lab, portrait studio, and a random assortment of other seperate shops in the store.
23:36:43 <AnMaster> well and that is the only one known outside Sweden iirc
23:36:48 <pikhq> Often including a McDonalds and a *bank*.
23:36:48 <alise> Owned by a foundation owned by a charity and crossing many countries...
23:36:54 <alise> That's gross.
23:36:57 <alise> But the stores themselves are nice.
23:36:58 <pikhq> Some Walmarts are also gas stations.
23:37:03 <AnMaster> pikhq, McDonalds we have here
23:37:08 <AnMaster> we also have Burger King and Max
23:37:12 <AnMaster> Max is Swedish
23:37:17 <pikhq> AnMaster: I don't think you get it. McDonalds *inside the store*.
23:37:18 <alise> But in your supermarkets?
23:37:28 <pikhq> *These are all commonly in Walmarts*.
23:37:44 <AnMaster> Max is from northen Sweden iirc. There is no McDonalds in north of Gävle iirc. They run at a loss north of there. Max all the way above
23:37:48 <AnMaster> strange by true
23:37:51 <AnMaster> but*
23:38:08 <AnMaster> alise, in shopping centres yes. Not sure about supermarkets
23:38:20 <AnMaster> super markets tend to be in the form of shopping centres here
23:38:39 <AnMaster> can't say I have seen any non-shopping centre supermarket
23:38:56 <pikhq> AnMaster: Okay, okay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Walmart.JPG This is a *teensy* Walmart.
23:39:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, looks quite small indeed. Hard to tell how large the building is
23:39:29 <AnMaster> large parking lot though
23:39:57 <pikhq> It's a bit smaller than the parking lot.
23:40:12 <AnMaster> pikhq, IKEA can be that big here
23:40:39 <pikhq> As big as that Walmart?
23:40:51 <pikhq> Tiny suckers.
23:40:52 <pikhq> :P
23:40:56 <AnMaster> pikhq, hah
23:41:42 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:IKEA,_Chicago_%28Schaumburg%29.jpg
23:41:46 <AnMaster> pikhq, that one is in US
23:41:49 <AnMaster> but it looks huge
23:42:12 <pikhq> Hmm. BTW, there's some 2,737 Wal-Marts Supercenters in the US.
23:43:07 * pikhq tries to find a similar aerial photo of a walmart
23:43:31 <pikhq> http://www.redwingaerials.com/images/740_MKT_LAREDO_IMG_5955.jpg Here's one in Texas.
23:44:19 <AnMaster> pikhq, maye twice the size of that IKEA?
23:44:21 <AnMaster> rough guess
23:44:22 <pikhq> The gas station there is *also* Walmart.
23:44:28 <AnMaster> oh
23:44:31 <AnMaster> even larger the
23:44:33 <AnMaster> then*
23:44:58 <pikhq> And these things are everywhere. Freaking everywhere.
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23:51:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, I have been unable to find any data on average IKEA sizes
23:52:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, only thing I have been able to find is that: 9300 m² was tried as a small format but turned out to be unsucessful
23:59:02 <AnMaster> "Clang currently implements all of the ISO C++ 1998 standard (including the defects addressed in the ISO C++ 2003 standard) except for 'export' (which has been removed from the C++'0x draft)." <-- whaaat when did that happen
23:59:05 <AnMaster> ^_^
23:59:33 <pikhq> They removed it because *everyone* refused to implement it. ;)
23:59:34 <AnMaster> "However, the implementation of Clang C++ is still somewhat immature, with remaining bugs that may cause compiler crashes, erroneous errors and warnings, " <-- right
23:59:55 <AnMaster> "or miscompiled code" got lost there somehow
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