00:00:16 pikhq: Ξ Windows won't have that problem. 00:00:31 Or is it Ψ Windows? 00:00:44 Neither will MS Windows 00:00:45 >.> 00:00:45 hypernet://.[..][/] 00:01:34 alise: "Hmm. No caps lock key. SET IT ON! FUCK YEAH!" 00:01:35 Ughh. 00:01:55 Someone should make a ... thingy that X11 is one of, that's compatible with X but supports.. betterness 00:01:55 pikhq: So, do tell me. What exactly is 2D acceleration except for "not having a stupid graphical server in between me and the hardware"? 00:02:11 Sgeo: being compatible with X11 implies suckiness. 00:02:37 alise: You can request that the hardware render things to the framebuffer instead of your CPU. 00:02:45 Only thingies that use the X compatibility need suck! 00:02:50 pikhq: Hm? 00:02:53 Hypernet URLs are case-insensitive (normally all uppercase except the "hypernet:" at the beginning), access_type is alphabetical, routing_data is zero or more unbounded nonnegative integers with dots in between, key_mode is alphabetical, key_data is alphabetical, key_numeric_ is numeric, subkey_data alternates numerics and alphabetics seperated by dots (starting with numeric). 00:02:57 pikhq: You mean that isn't how it usually works? 00:03:15 pikhq: Surely the video card just maps a certain part of memory to video memory? 00:03:25 alise: Without 2D acceleration, you write to the framebuffer. And that's all. 00:03:51 With 2D acceleration, you can have the video card itself perform operations onto the framebuffer. 00:03:56 zzo38: Is there some page describing that? 00:03:57 pikhq: Like what? 00:04:05 Surely CPUs are so fast nowadays that for 2D it doesn't matter... 00:04:48 Scaling, antialiasing, rotating, alpha channel... 00:04:56 huh 00:05:04 apparently there's an shttp 00:05:12 coppro: Yup. 00:05:12 Blitting... 00:05:13 pikhq: And ... the video card is faster at these than a modern CPU ... how? 00:05:15 Ilari: No. Not yet 00:05:17 That's just .. vector operations. 00:05:17 Sorry 00:05:23 I mean, for 3D, yes. But for 2D? 00:05:34 alise: Video cards are exceptionally, exceptionally good at vector operations. 00:05:46 Oh, oh. Also, color space changes. 00:05:48 pikhq: Yes, but... 00:06:01 pikhq: How complex would a 2D game have to be for the speed of these operations on a modern CPU vs video card to matter? 00:06:07 It was much more relevant 10 years ago than it is today. 00:06:09 And would it be humanly playable? 00:06:43 pikhq: Also question: Why are mouse buttons treat as anything but special keypresses? 00:06:53 zzo38: What is even goal of hypernet keys? DS is probably indirecting request to data using signatures and static data is probably binding via hash. 00:07:01 alise: Basically, the only thing that matters much with 2D acceleration any more involves video. 00:07:27 pikhq: You're telling me a CPU can't sustain 30 fps? 00:07:35 With super-optimised memcpy to video memory, say? 00:07:56 Transforming CMYK to RGB, or video scaling, or actual video display from an MPEG stream. 00:08:13 alise: Yes, but it takes CPU time that could be better spent doing something else. 00:08:32 pikhq: Yes, but on the other hand, this speed obsession produces DRIVERS. 00:08:35 Or, in the case of Flash (which implements all this piss-poorly), doing *fuck all*. 00:08:37 Have you ever used video drivers? Do you still have a soul? 00:08:47 I am pretty sure the answers are "yes, no" and this is no coincidence. 00:09:16 * Sgeo decides he should ignore alise's idea of morality, unless it's code morality 00:09:27 alise: If you are only going to use well-written software for video rendering, then there is no need for 2D acceleration on vaguely modern hardware. 00:09:30 Sgeo: what is my idea of morality? 00:09:52 pikhq: Right then. No hardware accel. in Arbitrary Greek Letter Windows. 00:10:00 For instance: mplayer is exceptionally good at displaying video. 00:10:07 Flash sucks giant donkey balls at it. 00:10:13 pikhq: (3D will be handled firstly, not at all, and later, by letting you say "Okay, I am going to do insane shit now".) 00:10:36 YOu seem to have implied that using video card drivers is immoral. Whether it is or not, using blobs is pretty much a necessity 00:10:40 (The WM will then be expected to hand over a chunk of raw video memory corresponding to your window, and access to the video hardware, to you.) 00:10:43 alise: Oh, you can handle 3D just fine. Just use Mesa. 00:10:45 Sgeo: I did not imply that. 00:10:56 I implied that using video drivers is fucking painful. 00:11:01 They break a lot and they suck. 00:11:13 pikhq: That's slow. :P 00:11:14 If Mesa wants to do crazy shit instead of just software rendering, well, that's it's darned mess. 00:11:33 alise: Mesa is the backend for all free-software 3D. 00:11:45 pikhq: I thought you meant software rendering. 00:11:51 pikhq: Anyway, how does Mesa handle acceleration in a window? 00:11:54 Is the answer "not"? 00:11:57 Mesa does 3D in general. 00:12:29 Ilari: Yes statis data is binding via hash 00:12:34 s/statis/static/ 00:12:36 It'll software render if it has to, it'll do crazy shit if it has to. It takes care of the crazy shit. 00:12:50 pikhq: How...? 00:12:59 Active Worlds in WINE had some issues with attempting to render 3d in a part of a window 00:13:07 pikhq: "Here is video memory. (Actually, it's some memory belonging to the WM that it will blit to a window for you.)" 00:13:22 How does Mesa go from that to "ha ha, I am drawing accelerated 3D all over my window area, video memory" 00:13:24 And digital signatures does mean binding by signatures, that it can be changed in the future by whoever has permission to modify it 00:13:28 alise: Oh, yeah... Uh. That might break its acceleration. 00:13:40 pikhq: So it needs direct access to a chunk of video memory, right? 00:13:56 Yeah, it needs access to DRI. 00:14:15 pikhq: What, the full DRI stuff? 00:14:22 DRI is X only... 00:14:23 And then also "W" key mode, which means "wiki", allows everyone to edit 00:14:24 zzo38: Well, both need double the number of bits relative to safety level, so at least 160 bits (256 if you want some security margin). 00:14:33 alise: Sorry, DRM. 00:14:43 That's the kernel-side stuff. 00:15:10 pikhq: So how would my system support it? 00:15:19 * pikhq looks 00:15:21 Ilari: Thanks, but is 256 enough? 00:15:24 A request to the window system saying "plox gimme direct video memory plez". 00:15:25 ? 00:16:03 alise: It would require some trickery, but you could do the same sort of thing that the Xcomposite does. 00:16:17 pikhq: What's that? 00:16:41 Perhaps I can allow a variable number of bits 00:16:41 alise: Uses a GL extension to allow you to accelerate rendering frames to physical memory. 00:17:10 pikhq: I think handling 3D is too much of a bitch to deal with to start with. 00:17:39 pikhq: Oh, and is there a reason that the mouse isn't just two integers in memory that you can read as often as you want (but it'll stay the same if you read quicker than the mouse update speed)? 00:17:46 Like, any reason at all? 00:18:30 alise: No. 00:18:38 zzo38: Since for static case, one hash suffices and for DS case you can treat the signature as static data. 00:18:44 pikhq: Right. Thought so. 00:19:22 Is voxelperfect.net broken, or is it just me? 00:19:33 Madk: http://esolangs.org/ should work fine. 00:19:46 Ilari: OK. 00:20:14 It doesn't :/ 00:20:19 Madk: dunno then 00:20:42 Is anyone else having the same problem? 00:20:43 pikhq: Hmm, what's a good keyboard interface? Can't just be one memory location, can't just be one location per key; we need some kind of notification mechanism, but I'm trying to keep this simple. 00:20:58 Madk: now that you mention it... 00:21:03 GRAUEEEEEEEEEE! 00:21:05 Fix it! 00:21:15 graue graue graue (he apperas if you call him three times) 00:21:25 Another idea in hypernet is all files (including static files) are encrypted, and that hypernet packets can be sent using anything (TCP/IP, UDP, e-mail, HTTP, FTP, fax machine, printed barcodes in books, ham radio, etc) 00:21:42 UP UP DOWN DOWN LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT 00:22:02 Didn't work 00:22:07 For a static file, if you happen to already have a copy (even if you don't know it yet, because it is encrypted), you might be able to retrieve it without sending or receiving anything from anywhere else. 00:22:20 For files that can change, you might still be able to do this, but it might be a older version 00:23:38 You might use a command-line tool to receive/send/request files (and other commands) using hypernet, or the web-browser might support hypernet URLs, or whatever else 00:23:45 site is back online 00:24:18 -!- jcp_xc2 has joined. 00:25:10 Hypernet shall be fully decentralized, with no dependencies on centralized services, and also entirely free and complete specifications available in the public domain for anyone to read, with only one central authority being the standards organization, to publish the documents describing the protocols, nothing else. 00:25:47 Madk: duh 00:25:51 you forgot B A START 00:25:56 Even if the government censors internet, they will be unable to censor hypernet! 00:26:36 zzo38 is just designing freenet 00:26:50 -!- jcp_xc2 has changed nick to jcp_x. 00:27:10 dammit this laptop is so perfect i love it 00:27:13 (Another way to transfer hypernet, is using floppy disks or USB file system devices, where the computer you attach it to will read/write the files on it, in order to send you the response (if it knows it), and to pass it on to other disks) 00:27:54 Standard file formats are mostly plain text and gzip (and other compression tools), no HTML or anything like that (although they can still be used if you want to) 00:28:10 what has happened to the trackpad though 00:28:21 pikhq: occasionally my tracks happen in reverse then get stuck 00:28:22 wut? 00:29:29 also sometimes the mouse just dances around 00:29:38 Wut? 00:30:52 pikhq: i think it is maybe sweaty or something distorting tracking 00:31:08 indeed 00:31:11 using another part of my hand works 00:34:45 coppro: ping 00:34:58 coppro: what was that level of secrecy parodied on agora? UNIVERSALLY TOP SECRET or something 00:35:02 GALACTICALLY SECRET maybe 00:35:22 That creepy shadow contract is dead! 00:35:31 Or, well, not enforced by Agoran law 00:41:43 alise: don't know 00:41:45 Sgeo: ZOMBIE 00:41:56 oh, the one parodied? 00:41:59 COSMIC TOP SECRET 00:42:02 the highest NATO classification 00:42:44 hmm 00:42:53 i wonder what goethe's argument would be for U.N.D.E.A.D. still existing? 00:43:05 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:43:10 I think I was referred to U.N.D.E.A.D. 00:43:30 Sgeo: probably there is an argument that it will start existing again when contracts are reintroduced 00:43:43 after all, nobody seriously argues when goethe claimed it retroactively changed itself way back when. 00:44:28 FUCK YOU TRACKPAD 00:44:30 pikhq: MAKE IT WORK 00:51:41 -!- Madk has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:58:44 alise: do you have a synaptics touchpad? 00:59:44 alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise alise 00:59:50 why isn't she saying anything 01:00:18 i have a synaptics touchpad. 01:02:03 cheater99: why? 01:02:16 is that what doesn't work? 01:02:26 because mine doesn't work either 01:02:29 but only in lunix 01:02:34 it works in freakin windows 01:04:28 aliseEeEeEeEeEEeeeEE? 01:04:33 :< 01:05:19 it works 01:05:22 it just has an issue 01:05:57 oh 01:05:58 what issue? 01:06:01 maybe i know how to fix it 01:09:03 it sometimes moves the opposite direction i do. movement often stops, then jerks around a lot if i move some more. 01:09:09 almost impossible to move correctly. 01:09:22 try changing from relative to absolute mode 01:09:28 or the other way around 01:09:33 i think you do it with synclient 01:10:31 i don't think it's in a different mode 01:10:41 there are two modes for the synaptics touchpad 01:12:54 how can i change it? no such var in synclient, or it seems so 01:12:54 from -l 01:18:10 cheater99 01:18:22 hm 01:18:24 just a sec 01:23:36 i can't remember :-< 01:23:44 http://lwn.net/Articles/38505/ looks similar to your problem 01:23:56 also: http://www.pubbs.net/200911/fedora/24583-xorg-synaptics-touchpad-and-absoluterelative-mode.html 01:25:04 it's not always reversed 01:25:05 only sometimes 01:25:53 It appears to be fixed. 01:25:57 Nope. 01:29:54 cheater99: that command doesn't do a thing 01:30:05 pikhq: So, question. How would you structure a keyboard interface? 01:30:55 what ever you do make sure at least one of the most useful shortcuts is impossible on some keyboard 01:31:02 (because of matrix limitations) 01:31:08 alise: I haven't a clue. 01:31:19 cheater99: As an API for accessing a keyboard. 01:32:28 o. 01:32:45 hey alise, want to help me figure out why my synaptics touchpad doesn't work? 01:32:56 cheater99: no, but i will. 01:33:02 <3 01:33:05 I actually used my own independent judgement today! 01:33:11 impossible! 01:33:13 [Well, kind of. I did rely on WOT] 01:33:30 But I didn't go into any chatrooms to ask if a website was trustworthy, and it's a matter of some importance 01:35:25 What website? 01:35:30 alise: how do we get around to it? 01:35:40 cheater99: first tell me the model of the trackpad. 01:35:49 it's just a synaptics ps/2 thing 01:35:52 there's no specific model 01:36:24 yes, there is. 01:36:28 probably. 01:36:32 okay so what distro are you using 01:36:36 ubuntu 01:36:41 10.04 right now 01:36:53 it worked in i think 9.04 or 8.something 01:37:24 here's an email between me and someone i thought might know http://pastebin.com/cm8CehM8 01:38:13 turns out he didn't :| 01:38:24 try ubuntu 10.04 livecd 01:38:30 unplug mice 01:38:31 i have 01:38:33 it didn't work 01:38:41 what happens when you run "xinput list" 01:38:45 i think at some point they broke the kernel 01:38:49 wrong 01:38:50 works for me 01:39:42 it's listed 01:39:45 should i paste it in here 01:39:48 it's 6 lines. 01:40:06 yes 01:40:10 # xinput list 01:40:10 ⎡ Virtual core pointer id=2[master pointer (3)] 01:40:10 ⎜ ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer id=4[slave pointer (2)] 01:40:10 ⎜ ↳ Logitech USB Laser Mouse id=9[slave pointer (2)] 01:40:10 ⎜ ↳ SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad id=12[slave pointer (2)] 01:40:11 ⎜ ↳ Macintosh mouse button emulation id=13[slave pointer (2)] 01:40:37 (keyboard is listed afterwards) 01:40:41 alise, nymag.com, particularly http://nymag.com/bestdoctors/ 01:41:18 nymag sounds like the name of a chinese province 01:42:40 cheater99: it should work 01:42:50 doesn't 01:43:05 works in windows (well it did, but now 'doze is broken so i can't boot into it) 01:43:19 it worked in windows for months while not working under ubuntu 01:43:23 so i'm certain ubuntu is broken 01:43:51 cheater99: i have a synaptics touchpad. i use ubuntu 10.04. 01:43:52 it works. 01:43:58 you have a problem. 01:44:05 yes 01:44:09 what is your driver? 01:44:24 lsmod | grep synaptics 01:44:44 produces no output :) 01:45:00 "psmouse", I would bet. 01:45:20 aha 01:45:21 weird 01:46:33 what dev does yours spit info out to? 01:48:13 and if you cat it, do you see anything? 01:49:34 -!- jillsmitt has joined. 01:49:59 (you can check the device with cat /proc/bus/input/devices) 01:52:03 you don't have to teach me linux :P 01:52:23 i just wanted to be friendly :( 01:52:30 sok :) 01:52:55 so what do you get 01:53:04 can't seem to find a device file 01:53:18 cat /proc/bus/input/devices 01:53:21 i know 01:53:26 it says synaptics 01:53:31 and under that handlers= 01:53:32 i know 01:53:45 I: Bus=0011 Vendor=0002 Product=0007 Version=25b1 01:53:45 N: Name="SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad" 01:53:45 P: Phys=isa0060/serio4/input0 01:53:45 S: Sysfs=/devices/platform/i8042/serio4/input/input8 01:53:45 U: Uniq= 01:53:46 H: Handlers=mouse2 event8 01:53:48 B: EV=b 01:53:50 B: KEY=6420 0 70000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 01:53:52 B: ABS=11000003 01:54:01 what does yours say? 01:54:02 but e.g. /dev/input/mouse1 never yields anything 01:54:11 nor does /dev/input/event6 01:54:16 does yours say /dev/input/mouse1 01:54:17 ? 01:54:22 Handlers=mouse1 event6 01:54:26 aha 01:54:30 mine doesn't say anything either 01:54:36 so maybe i was wrong 01:54:37 very curious 01:54:40 and i have just had a configuration issue 01:54:50 cheater99: perhaps X11 is "eating" all the input somehow, though that'd be an awful violation of everything if that can actually happen 01:54:51 but your touchpad does work 01:54:52 doesn't it 01:54:53 ? 01:54:54 cheater99: what's your Xorg.conf 01:55:02 yes, it works, apart from this glitch which is almost certainly hardware 01:55:19 let me look 01:55:25 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:55:26 i've got /etc/X11/xorg.conf 01:55:28 no cap 01:55:51 ah right 01:55:56 the latest version uses HAL 01:56:01 the latest version of ubuntu 01:56:06 ah, indeed 01:56:08 but even before it was using HAL drivers it didn't work 01:56:20 Section "Module" 01:56:20 Load "synaptics" 01:56:21 EndSection 01:56:23 so i just have this 01:56:25 what do you have? 01:56:40 i also have something about screen devices but that's all 01:57:32 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 01:58:06 cheater99: i suggest removing xorg.conf 01:58:14 i have none 01:58:21 i bet it will autodetect the right driver if you do 01:58:54 that can't be it though 01:59:05 let's give it a try though 01:59:24 dude it's Linux/X11 01:59:27 it can be any fucking thing. 02:00:55 yeah that's my problem 02:01:11 there's no fucking telling what the signal 'flow' is 02:01:13 so just remove it and restart X :P 02:01:44 cheater99: yes, a modern GNOME/X11/GNU/Linux system is hideously overcomplicated. 02:01:47 computers suck, we know this 02:01:53 it's not even about complication 02:02:01 if there was any documentation at all! 02:02:16 * Sgeo is apparently "Geonic elements" 02:02:34 cheater99: tried it yet? :P 02:02:48 just a sec, waiting for this video to finish then i'll reboot 02:02:48 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 02:02:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D26U26fFojw&feature=player_embedded 02:02:59 check it out 02:03:04 * cheater99 is into synthesizers 02:03:23 no need to reboot ... 02:03:25 just log out 02:03:33 X will restart 02:04:15 ok 02:04:26 but it will have to close irc etc 02:04:26 right? 02:04:34 well yeah. since x sucks. :-P 02:04:39 fucking x 02:04:42 brb 02:04:45 -!- cheater99 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:15:11 -!- cheater99 has joined. 02:15:18 wb cheater99 02:15:19 any luck? 02:15:28 thx ^^ 02:15:30 no :( 02:15:32 the only thing that did was make my gnome ugly :p 02:15:52 btw, the touchpad doesn't work on the login screen either (it used to but then it broke down completely) 02:16:35 How on earth did it make gnome ugly? 02:16:47 it disabled compiz and the theme 02:16:58 and it fell back to the way gnome used to look 15 years ago 02:17:55 What, you mean Motif compliant? 02:18:09 SORT of like this: http://blog.chris.tylers.info/uploads/rhl72-gnome-desktop.png 02:18:26 cheater99: see that just looks usable to me :P 02:18:31 i'm a bit of an old fart ... 02:18:56 That looks like a no-nonsense GUI thing with unantialiased fonts. 02:19:12 so alise 02:19:17 But, then, I'm the guy using Fluxbox. 02:19:17 how are you an old fart 02:19:18 :) 02:19:22 if you're supposed to be a teenager 02:20:18 cheater99: magic. 02:20:21 pikhq: yeck, fluxbox. 02:20:31 alise: so what do we do about the thing now? 02:20:40 let's look at your HAL info 02:20:45 maybe?? 02:20:56 sheesh i'm only 14, that information is PRIVATE 02:21:01 how about you paste yours :-P 02:22:45 what do you get when you do ls -R /etc/hal/fdi 02:22:46 ? 02:24:09 ehird@dinky:~$ ls -R /etc/hal/fdi/ 02:24:09 /etc/hal/fdi/: 02:24:09 information policy preprobe 02:24:09 /etc/hal/fdi/information: 02:24:09 /etc/hal/fdi/policy: 02:24:10 preferences.fdi 02:24:12 /etc/hal/fdi/preprobe: 02:24:27 is that it? 02:24:50 and are you sure you have no xorg.conf or Xorg.conf in /etc/X11? 02:25:13 yes, and certain. 02:25:23 is there anything else under /etc/hal ? 02:25:38 no. 02:25:54 is there about synaptics in preferences.fdi? 02:25:56 lshal reports that psmouse is being used for something, though under the synaptics device itself it actually lists no driver. queer. 02:26:11 my xinput: 02:26:14 ⎡ Virtual core pointer id=2[master pointer (3)] 02:26:14 ⎜ ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer id=4[slave pointer (2)] 02:26:14 ⎜ ↳ SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad id=11[slave pointer (2)] 02:26:14 ⎜ ↳ Macintosh mouse button emulation id=12[slave pointer (2)] 02:26:14 ⎣ Virtual core keyboard id=3[master keyboard (2)] 02:26:15 ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard id=5[slave keyboard (3)] 02:26:17 ↳ Power Button id=6[slave keyboard (3)] 02:26:19 ↳ Video Bus id=7[slave keyboard (3)] 02:26:21 ↳ Power Button id=8[slave keyboard (3)] 02:26:23 ↳ Chicony USB 2.0 Camera id=9[slave keyboard (3)] 02:26:25 ↳ AT Translated Set 2 keyboard id=10[slave keyboard (3)] 02:26:30 cheater99: no 02:26:37 just something about hotpluggable storage 02:27:51 i have a thing called 11-x11-synaptics.fdi 02:27:58 * pikhq sends the world's most evil HTTP query to tinyurl. 02:28:02 Curses. 02:28:07

414 - Request-URI Too Long

02:28:10 To filebin, then. 02:29:20 i'll upload my lshal 02:29:50 alise: http://filebin.ca/hbrppf/timemachine.tex Thoughts? 02:30:34 alise: http://pastebin.com/QxpPVDyq 02:31:29 alise: that's not the WHOLE thing :p 02:33:46 http://pastebin.com/GUuXCpr8 02:33:59 that's my /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi 02:34:49 -!- p_q has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:35:06 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 02:35:06 -!- Madk has joined. 02:35:34