< 1279843213 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course the definitions are the usual near-inscrutable OED fare, at least 60's OED... < 1279843246 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't believe they use IPA now! :( < 1279843299 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IPA is incomprehensible to the non-dedicated; the old style was integrated into the word and merely provided helpful cues. Bah. < 1279843333 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, how do they handle non-/rhotic? < 1279843545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anything wrong with current C-INTERCAL host? < 1279843556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1279843568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just thought MySpace would be a nicely ridiculous alternative < 1279843570 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not quite that mad < 1279843639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1279843646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1279843674 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grumble. Reddit now has a subscriber thing. < 1279843688 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess it's time to build QWERTY. < 1279843740 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, supposedly, features that get rolled out to subscribers will be given to the public later < 1279843751 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also, I'm planning on getting Reddit Gold < 1279843804 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One, whatever; two, I'm not surprised. Enjoy your festering shitpile that now costs — but! But userpage sorting! < 1279843815 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bleh. Reddit sucks now :( < 1279843966 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Is truly believing someone is vocalising when they're just lipmimetalking a symptom of autism? < 1279843977 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? Then he's just crazy, then. < 1279843988 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Mmm? No. That's just being dumb. < 1279843990 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*No? He's < 1279844030 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What about memorising everything EXCEPT just any single, incredibly common nonliteral phrase? < 1279844045 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope? Just annoying, then. < 1279844074 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279844094 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He will go on and on about "BUT IT MAKES NO SENSE" and whinge even after its nonliterality is revealed — then forget it for next time. < 1279844099 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Constantly. Forever. < 1279844110 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-30-67.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1279844133 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am in Hell and Satan is twelve years old. < 1279844148 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Partly autism, mostly just being stupid. < 1279844167 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(namely, the *ability* to give a fuck is autism, the *actually* giving a fuck is being stupid) < 1279844224 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yeah, I don't think he WANTS to understand things like "joke", "idiom", "tone of voice", "opinion". < 1279844236 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He enjoys whining. A lot. < 1279844278 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should rearrange his comics some time so he gets to spend years putting them back >__> < 1279844301 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, I was planning to send a postcard < 1279844320 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ??? < 1279844334 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can send a postcard to get a month of Reddit Gold < 1279844344 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least for now < 1279844379 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: How odd. < 1279844381 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What about insisting he verbally acknowledged something you said several times after having what I will term "OCD process switching hangup", despite being utterly silent? < 1279844390 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Symptom of anything other than crazy? < 1279844410 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h58.15.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279844415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Uh. WTF? < 1279844430 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay; diagnosis: crazy. < 1279844452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: in my experience, the *idea* of a joke isn't exactly hard for autistics to understand. Just some kinds of humor fall flat. < 1279844491 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Any form of joke that isn't... Saying something he believes to be true while laughing... he considers a "lie". < 1279844507 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: ... He's busy being an idiot then. < 1279844511 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He gets especially offended if an adult plays along and it is later revealed. < 1279844534 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Before it is revealed he tries to convince you of not what-you-joked. < 1279844550 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1279844570 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Might I suggest murder? < 1279844581 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He finds sarcasm, even overtly droooning saaarcasm of oobviousness, unacceptable because it's "too hard" to detect. < 1279844599 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So he's tone deaf too. And lives outside of tiiiiiiimmeee. < 1279844599 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How odd. I absolutely love sarcasm. < 1279844624 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Murder sounds good. < 1279844628 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll sometimes actually *miss* sarcasm, but that's quite different from not understanding it in general. < 1279844638 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably, I like sarcasm too *much*. < 1279844657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't say < 1279844660 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What about inability to believe that the casing around a sausage is intestine? < 1279844666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, then. I'm 20. This is generally true. < 1279844669 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a symptom of autism? < 1279844675 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1279844685 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that there's a fairly well know virtual world I haven't explored < 1279844697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: ... Wait, wait, wait. You have found an autistic person that wouldn't be content to read an encyclopedia all day long? < 1279844703 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "The Universe"? < 1279844720 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well, he believed it when someone who isn't me said it. < 1279844740 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I tried to convince him the moon is made of cheese one time too many. < 1279844744 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279844747 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, Farmville < 1279844748 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Have you considered post-term abortion? < 1279844752 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know nothing about it < 1279844758 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Have you considered post-term self abortion? < 1279844783 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Also, I don't think he reads anything but comics—sorry, "graphic novels". < 1279844817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: You have found an autistic person who is both literate and *doesn't* like reading. This... Is shocking. < 1279844821 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Instead of Superman beating up a bad guy he beats up a bad guy on more, glossier pages and with a stronger book spine. < 1279844856 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: A graphic novel != a comic on a glossier pages, BTW. < 1279844864 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. I know. < 1279844871 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what he reads is. < 1279844904 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... He's reading some of the inferior things in the comic medium. Wonderful. < 1279844921 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enter library; exit with 10 thick hardback Superman anthologies. Amusing to watch. < 1279844945 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can imagine picking up Order of the Stick books
< 1279845006 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: He raged at some of them being rated 18 in the library system because IT IS LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO DEPICT THE LAST SON OF KRYPTON IN AN ADULT SITUATION ROAAARGH < 1279845052 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: I think he'd absolutely despise Niven's essay "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex". < 1279845067 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :God is his voice annoying too. And his way of making demands followed by "please". < 1279845070 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is a favorite of mine) < 1279845074 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can I just kill the guy? < 1279845083 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything can be depicted in an adult situation < 1279845093 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Would you like to be institutionalised permanently? < 1279845097 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: There Is Porn Of It. < 1279845105 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Thank you, Obvious. < 1279845118 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PREQUEL BEFORE HE BECAME A CAPTAIN < 1279845129 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No. :P < 1279845143 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Then murder is not recommended. < 1279845208 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: He constantly truly believes he is almost "cured" when he has a near breakdown after someone brushes the back of his hands with their close on the way out of the Wrong Elevator (On the wrong side!). < 1279845220 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* with their clothes < 1279845224 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**with < 1279845241 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"They're dirty aaaaaah!" < 1279845247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Cure? Autism? Whaaaaaat? < 1279845254 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No. OCD. < 1279845263 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cure? OCD? Whaaaaaat? < 1279845282 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As an aside: autism + OCD cannot be pleasant. < 1279845287 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then he tries to close taxi's door with pinky. Wince. Uses hand. "Now I have to wash both." < 1279845304 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seatbelt. Yeah. Taxi driver ended up doing that one. < 1279845344 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Journey's end. It's okay; I can CRAWL out from underneath the seatbelt! < 1279845357 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279845362 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? I can press the release button with my ELBOW! < 1279845381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't they, uh, have effective medication for OCD? < 1279845407 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They give him pills. Probably no better than placebo. < 1279845416 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If not, what is he like without them? < 1279845425 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Oh, right. Unit's run by idiots. < 1279845451 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They wanted to give me pills. I refused because I'm not crazy and enjoy this mental state. < 1279845463 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surprised that worked. < 1279845475 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279845492 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if a medicine does not help with a condition, *fucking stop the medication*. I thought that was the first freaking rule of medication.) < 1279845506 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: He can't touch the Other < 1279845516 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of two IDENTICAL sofas. < 1279845524 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now if I ever want to destroy him < 1279845532 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will mix the heads and seats of both < 1279845544 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He will be utterly helpless < 1279845586 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, that was the work of a poet and this fact was obscured to me. < 1279845606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may praise thy muse. < 1279845611 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1279845620 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: What else, I'd < 1279845624 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thou may wish to praise thine muse. < 1279845635 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :empty the box of hand wipes—antiseptic < 1279845649 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. s/thine/thy/ < 1279845652 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fails
< 1279845656 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rearrange that pristine, sterile "display" of comic books < 1279845671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :負けだ < 1279845671 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(covering games stereo & DVDs) < 1279845685 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :move his bedroom < 1279845698 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make the bathrooms he uses, out of order < 1279845713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: You have, what, one more week as an in-patient? < 1279845720 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff him onto a crowded tube in America ... < 1279845743 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... stop people opening doors for him < 1279845759 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make him sit down in that foyer < 1279845784 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lock his door. (He'd < 1279845803 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never be able to get out, even with a lock on the inside.) < 1279845813 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, please don't turn into a bully < 1279845814 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do believe that you love free verse. < 1279845820 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. And he is on holiday for two weeks! < 1279845837 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank god & why don't I get a holiday. < 1279845853 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Can't I fucking rant? Try living this! < 1279845906 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: He doesn't come downstairs... So I hopefully will never see him again. < 1279845955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Win < 1279845983 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: But I have a tiny copy of him in my head now. < 1279845995 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want a lobotomy. < 1279846040 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, while I have to do things like "class" and "group" he wiles away his days drawing comics and cometing Z < 1279846056 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*completing Mario Galaxy 2 < 1279846060 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in four days. < 1279846076 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still complains. Naturally. < 1279846136 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just glad I'm not his parents. < 1279846154 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can they really possibly still love him? Twelve years of it!! < 1279846155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: You do not want a lobotomy. < 1279846171 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've only had *months* and have 50% grey hairs! < 1279846184 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh. < 1279846258 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally he has abandoned his career as comic writer/drawer for the more realistic paeleontology. XD < 1279846299 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure this is just taken off "Friends" which he for some inexplicable reason watches repeats of religiously. < 1279846319 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the main TV of course, so there's even less for anyone else to do. < 1279846348 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-30-67.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1279846355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Why couldn't he be interested in something a bit more... At all interesting? < 1279846362 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, say, paleontology? < 1279846381 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps this is all a ludicrously vivid nightmare. < 1279846405 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually on several occasions I have entertained the idea that I am in a work of fiction here. < 1279846426 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Author's a right asshole. < 1279846443 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I am, (a) wow. Greatest novellist of all time and (b) FUCKING STOP IT < 1279846451 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*novelist < 1279846483 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(c) is there a happy ending I don't mind spoilers :P < 1279846518 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made the Fibonacci sequence in my super-awesome new language < 1279846531 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madk: Ah, modesty. < 1279846540 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's stinking hard to write programs in < 1279846549 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not because the commands are limiting, no < 1279846563 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it takes place on a 2d grid < 1279846568 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If you said you'd keep your eyes peeled for something and I went on about how that would be really painful—would you punch me? < 1279846573 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every instruction pointer can hold 2 bytes < 1279846587 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Depends on how you said it. < 1279846598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: And how often you say things like that. < 1279846602 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to make a ton of pointers work together despite different operations < 1279846619 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: If I didn't punch you, I'd either groan or giggle. < 1279846624 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if they have anything to do with each other their lines for code have to intersect < 1279846630 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: "Concerned" tone of voice. Not totally full volume. Prolonged and sparse utterances. And, all the time. < 1279846639 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Punch it is then. Thanks for the advice. < 1279846642 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I'd fucking punch you. < 1279846647 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, my fibonacci sequence program is 2 entirely separate program < 1279846671 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one to output the sequence and another to end the program in the time it takes the sequence to reach 233 < 1279846681 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madk: Sounds fun. < 1279846743 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called "Cardinal" if you look on the wiki. < 1279846774 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madk: I guess the current talk must be a bit confusing for you X-P < 1279846789 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haven't been paying attention, really :P < 1279846797 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :busy trying to figure out a bug < 1279846849 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279846873 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably a good thing. Tl;dr: I am in a "children's sorta blend between boarding school and mental institution" because crazy people don't care about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Agony and subsequent venting ensues. < 1279846884 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate the internet < 1279846891 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be back at home for good soon, though... probably. < 1279846916 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99: why < 1279846950 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because :( < 1279847002 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cheater99's girl internet slandered him < 1279847044 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Rate this game: Word is picked randomly. Dictionary definition given. Three guesses as to the word. etc. This is what boredom causes. < 1279847060 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :V < 1279847065 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279847090 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Clearly the name should be a quantum computing pun (reverse dictionary lookup) < 1279847092 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot pay for it < 1279847092 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with my card < 1279847092 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about to run out < 1279847092 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's gay < 1279847092 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIFE SUX < 1279847094 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1279847094 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it worked now < 1279847107 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it seems to have worked < 1279847117 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay cheater99 will disappear soon < 1279847117 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: i have many girls. which one do you mean? < 1279847119 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1279847132 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-.- < 1279847134 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shtup alise < 1279847157 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well bye peeps. < 1279847162 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BYE. < 1279847166 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1279847170 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1279847172 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YEAH BYE. < 1279847175 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phew < 1279847352 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279847540 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279847938 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1279848650 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: swatted to death < 1279848795 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279849053 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hehehe, sorry XD < 1279849161 0 :Gregor!4b974939@gateway/web/freenode/ip.75.151.73.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279849184 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madk: YOU APPEAR TO BE CONSISTENTLY AGAINST THE ORDER OF THINGS < 1279849220 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, _inconsistently_ < 1279849231 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't know whay I was thinking r was after t < 1279849247 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: msu be the hyphen < 1279849256 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be* < 1279849329 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you _are_ mad, k? < 1279849379 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION smacks oerjan
< 1279849382 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1279849409 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how gregarious of you < 1279849445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION smacks oerjan in an erotic manner
< 1279849459 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whistles* < 1279849630 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279849644 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279851715 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Windows NT 3.1 had a POSIX subsystem... < 1279851719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MWAHAHAHAH < 1279852334 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279853091 0 :Madk!~Madk@c-71-63-79-112.hsd1.va.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279853759 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: o.o; < 1279853843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dear DAEMON Tools: I thought I _specifically_ said not to install a toolbar! < 1279854497 0 :poiuy_qwert!~poiuy_qwe@bas5-toronto47-1176439055.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1279854547 0 :p_q!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279855020 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1279855144 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@75-151-73-57-Spokane.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279855237 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone competent finally has access to the codebase. < 1279855269 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1279855440 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1279855948 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1279856066 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279856500 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1279856809 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h178.41.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279856887 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1279857447 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279857657 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279858392 0 :kwertii!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: bye < 1279859277 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Who is Diana Gibraiel, why don't I know her, and why is she wearing a fez in her Facebook picture? < 1279859291 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For you see, I too am wearing a fez in my Facebook picture. And so I feel we must be kindred spirits. < 1279859335 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :She is clearly a wearer of fez. < 1279859371 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Part of the Fez Mafia. < 1279859379 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which totally does not exist so don't go looking it up or anything. < 1279859411 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shall put on his trenchcoat and investigate
< 1279859426 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY COME ON GUY I SAID IT DOESN'T EXIST < 1279859429 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Investigate as to whether or not a fez & trenchcoat is the most awesome thing ever. < 1279859433 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279859440 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Daaamn < 1279859445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have my trenchcoat here in Washington. < 1279859451 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could totally provide evidence. < 1279859455 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And be like "BOOYA" < 1279859459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1279859464 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Only when your hair is like a POWERFUL MANE" < 1279859468 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sadly, I am short on fez. < 1279859476 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not on hair. < 1279859495 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DO WE NEED TO HAVE A HAIR-OFF? THE KIND THAT DOESN'T INVOLVE REMOVING HAIR BUT COMPARING HAIR LENGTH! < 1279859511 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO < 1279859514 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1279859515 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOTED < 1279859524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEARD, HOWEVER < 1279859536 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, well I can't compete there at all. < 1279859562 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although come to think of it, I do need a shave. < 1279859568 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Victorious! In spite of having a very short & kempt beard ATM! < 1279859579 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the UNIX beard was getting a bit... Much.) < 1279859769 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think in terms of total-head-hair-volume I win. < 1279859782 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total hair volume Idonno, I don't know how hair you are :P < 1279859825 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm < 1279859828 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How hairY < 1279859836 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *do* keep fairly long hair... < 1279859842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I am furry. < 1279859848 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : In a jar on my counter < 1279859864 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not "a furry", just. I have hair everywhere. < 1279859885 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas I am distressingly smooooooth :P < 1279859897 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My freaking toes have hair! < 1279859914 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My freaking ... legs have hair. And forearms. Aaaaaaand that's it. < 1279859937 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by "have hair", I mean "have a non-zero but barely visible amount of hair" < 1279859976 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hah. < 1279859980 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, yes, my legs DO have forearms. Just in case you got confused by my dangling participle. < 1279859989 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LMAO < 1279860776 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279860786 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279865787 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279865828 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279867060 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1279867481 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279867822 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1279869501 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello everyone < 1279869512 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you are cordially invited to my birthday party this Saturday < 1279869523 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where we will be sporting two handles of Smirnoff < 1279869528 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately, most of you live in other countries < 1279869533 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I understand if you will be unable to attend. < 1279869594 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if you live near Jasper, Georgia, USA < 1279869598 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also several of us don't drink. < 1279869600 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then please do come by. :) < 1279869607 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: eh, it's optional. < 1279869608 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However we do now know where to rape^H^H^H^Hfind you. < 1279869647 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programmers are oddly sober. < 1279869656 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I would program better drunk. < 1279869659 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least slightly drunk < 1279869673 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like people who say they drive better just a little buzzed. < 1279869679 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well, no < 1279869692 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's usually moments before I say "BUZZED LIKE THIS?!" and then cut them to shreds with a chainsaw. < 1279869694 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*buzzzzzzzz* < 1279869713 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a point where one becomes better at certain skills < 1279869725 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps not driving. < 1279869795 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Many programmers tend to dislike disabling themselves mentally. < 1279869806 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though still others absolutely love it. < 1279869811 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/vcards/demo/ Who wants to turn this into something that has a server? :P < 1279869812 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well...hmmm < 1279869834 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you are disabling yourself mentally. But that's what makes it great. :) < 1279869842 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And still others absolutely love various illegal drugs, in particular ones that are claimed to "enhance" ones mental state in some sense. < 1279869852 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(psychadelics, weed, etc.) < 1279869852 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no < 1279869861 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have attempted to program while high. Doesn't work. < 1279869874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I never said anything about programming *while* on them. < 1279869878 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming requires a certain cache of short term memory that... goes away. < 1279869894 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Programming under the influence of anything stronger than, oh, coffee, is probably a bad idea. < 1279869906 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :launchMissiles() < 1279869949 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I bet speed would enhance programming ability. Not that I advocate the use of that particular drug. < 1279869955 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just saying. I think it would. < 1279869964 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the correct dosage. < 1279870016 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course this is all a moot point because programmers are *of course* all completely upright and outstanding citizens who would never break a law. :P < 1279870036 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except sodomy laws in some countries. < 1279870051 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Sarcasm. < 1279870068 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Keep in mind that in the US it is effectively illegal to program... < 1279870071 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whereas my response was so DEAD SERIOUS it totally killed the conversation :P < 1279870081 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279870088 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Alan Turing :P < 1279870102 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wait < 1279870112 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I break the law when I program. How so? < 1279870122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Are you familiar with patent law? < 1279870130 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, more accurately, software patents are so broad that you probably violate a patent if you sneeze. < 1279870143 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sneeze near a computer, and now you're just punked. < 1279870156 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd estimate that, by now, it is impossible to not violate patent law when making a non-trivial program. < 1279870195 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you stuck a second pointer in your linked list struct? Woops, that's a patent. You implemented double-clicking? That's a patent. < 1279870198 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so on. < 1279870213 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, well yeah < 1279870220 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :patent law is stupid though. So that's okay. < 1279870227 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the DMCA. < 1279870228 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll live dangerously and rebellious program. < 1279870247 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which makes any sort of "circumvention device" illegal... < 1279870252 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rebeliously program < 1279870253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, in fact, criminal. < 1279870266 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circumvention device? what is that exactly? < 1279870294 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any device that circumvents an "access-control technology". < 1279870307 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION prefers his law to be in terms of well-defined concrete entities
< 1279870319 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so... do you just spend hours digesting US legalese? < 1279870324 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, root. < 1279870339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No, but I did several years ago. < 1279870349 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Among other things, I read US copyright law. All of it. < 1279870357 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my god < 1279870361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's mother-fucking nuts. < 1279870371 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think there's too many US citizens who are not lawyers that have done that. < 1279870387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's hardly any that have read *any* of the law, for that matter. < 1279870418 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read law as it is relevant to my situation. I read some contract law recently in relation to my university apartment contract. < 1279870434 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which country you in? < 1279870436 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :US < 1279870445 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't read law. I just cry, quietly, in the fetal position. < 1279870452 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Your reading of contract law probably omitted a lot. < 1279870456 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most of that is common law. < 1279870459 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :contract law here is also crazy. You can agree to some pretty ridiculous fine print. < 1279870467 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. I used wikipedia for the common law part. < 1279870473 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A decent chunk of which is inherited from British law. < 1279870483 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there's some specific bills regarding contracts between lenders and such. < 1279870489 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*unless you're in Louisiana < 1279870508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Federal law is still common law, even if the state is under civil law. < 1279870515 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, partially common law. < 1279870537 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But contract law has both laws at both federal and state level. < 1279870543 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are there actually written documents of British law that would be relevant to an American contract case? < 1279870553 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Court decisions, more like. < 1279870561 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: And yes. < 1279870584 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I got the basic idea from wikipedia though. I believe it actually cited some British cases. < 1279870621 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worse still in Virginia. All court decisions of the UK that don't violate a local or federal law are valid in Virginia. < 1279870666 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...doesn't make any sense to me. I don't think you should be expected to mentally digest a contract in a short sitting or, say, when installing some software. And then be legally obligated to uphold it, even if it allows the contract writer to basically do anything. < 1279870686 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From my experience with legal systems, lawyers do not know jack about making understandable complex systems. < 1279870704 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1279870708 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From my experience with software systems, programmers do not know jack about making understandable complex systems. < 1279870712 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, for that matter, well-functioning complex systems. < 1279870719 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: This much is true. < 1279870720 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, for that matter, well-functioning complex systems. < 1279870747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that laws make Java object hierarchies look clean. < 1279870765 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to my apartment contract they can basically kick me out for whatever reason they like < 1279870782 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even believe they need a reason. < 1279870785 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Which state? < 1279870789 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Georgia. < 1279870892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1279871012 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it came up you could probably fight that as an unconscionable contract. < 1279871017 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/contract/term/ < 1279871030 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(an unconscionable term is a term that no reasonable person would agree to.) < 1279871137 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-nod- yeah, I know. < 1279871154 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just such a vague notion to me. I wouldn't know which terms are unconscionable < 1279871161 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I bet there are a lot of them in that contract < 1279871162 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's evil. < 1279871166 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Law is ridiculously vague. < 1279871180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agora nomicers should be allowed to rewrite it. < 1279871213 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe they can change the terms of the contract arbitrarily as well, with notice to the signer. < 1279871230 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is an entirely unconscionable contract. < 1279871253 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's not really any way for me to exit the contract unless I decide not to enroll, get an intership 50 miles from campus, or have a baby. < 1279871271 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even pay a fee. < 1279871289 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I really wanted to fight it, but it would be a headache to do so. < 1279871292 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, is this for a dorm? < 1279871295 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. < 1279871311 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I signed the contract, but realized I could just get an apartment with some friends off campus. Too late. < 1279871312 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If any of this bites you at all, you have a tidy sum on your hands. < 1279871332 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I'm not sure I follow. bites? < 1279871344 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Causes you problems. < 1279871411 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because, uh... This contract is clearly having unreasonable terms added from a superior bargaining position, and is hence mostly unenforcable... < 1279871416 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you're saying I have a legitimate case? My experience with the legal system has been that absolutely no one takes me seriously. < 1279871438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279871460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must postface all this with: I am not a lawyer, just a nerd. < 1279871518 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /might/ talk to a lawyer about it then. Though, I dunno, at this point I've almost decided that I might as well take the contract as it will be less stressful. < 1279871535 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Getting a regular apartment involves handling bills. I'd rather delay that for the time being. :P < 1279871548 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and instead amass enormous student loan debts. :D :D :D < 1279871564 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't bother talking to a lawyer unless the contract actually causes you problems. < 1279871598 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the original "problem" was that I changed my mind, basically. I don't think that will hold up in court. < 1279871602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: basically, you shouldn't point out that the clause is invalid unless they actually try to kick you out < 1279871624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe that doesn't work < 1279871653 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: If you merely decided after the fact that you don't want to be in the dorm? Sorry, no recourse for changing your mind about a contract. < 1279871663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: as far as I remember, unconsiconable terms don't invalidate the entire contract, just those terms < 1279871666 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ways of dealing with it being bullshit. < 1279871671 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Generally, yes. < 1279871697 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: If the removal of the unconscionable terms makes the rest of the contract fall apart, then the contract does so. < 1279871704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1279871755 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: though, I was actually not really aware I had signed a contract at that point until I asked to be removed from the list. It was an e-contract. The contract was a linked PDF, and there was a "I agree" button on the page. I should have paid more attention. < 1279871791 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Oooohboy. < 1279871813 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you needed a specific clause for that? < 1279871822 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the name of the clause... < 1279871826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jury was still out on clickwrap contracts being valid, right? < 1279871851 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. Clickwrap? < 1279871858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 2. I should sleep. XD < 1279871858 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :severability clause? < 1279871893 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Severability is a concept in contract law which allows people to separate out the components of a contract so that in the event that one aspect is deemed impossible to enforce or invalid, the rest of the contract is not affected. In order to invoke severability, a contract must specifically include a severability clause which indicates that invalidity or unenforceability of some sections of a contract does not render the entire < 1279871938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes; if you don't have that in the contract then it doesn't exist. < 1279871946 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because law is batshit. < 1279871955 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, only the most naive contracts omit it. < 1279871971 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been a while since I checked, but I do believe it has one. < 1279871982 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's moot I guess. < 1279871999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1279872000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1279872041 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what pisses me off about these e-contracts is that US law doesn't really specify that you need any kind of digitially encrypted signature. < 1279872082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :US law actually does not generally require signatures for contracts; just proof of agreement. < 1279872115 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In some states, one can actually go to court over an entirely spoken contract if you can prove that the agreement was made. < 1279872122 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/you/one < 1279872132 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Under UETA, the term means "an electronic sound, symbol, or process, attached to or logically associated with a record and executed or adopted by a person with the intent to sign the record." < 1279872160 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sound? :P < 1279872176 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Ding! Thanks for the human soul!" < 1279872214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"With the intent to sign the record." < 1279872256 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, technical people should probably help draft technical laws. < 1279872302 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but on the other hand you could end up with C++ templates in law. < 1279872323 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...maybe they did consult technical folk, and they still prefer vague legalese. < 1279872374 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION designs a legal programming language, for formally unambiguous laws. :)
< 1279872384 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first-order logic? < 1279872981 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1279873000 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h41.22.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279873027 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canadian law (PIPEDA) attempts to clarify the situation by first defining a generic electronic signature as "a signature that consists of one or more letters, characters, numbers or other symbols in digital form incorporated in, attached to or associated with an electronic document", then defining a secure electronic signature as an electronic signature with specific properties. PIPEDA's secure electronic signature regulations re < 1279873034 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see.... this seems much more sensible to me. < 1279873249 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :module ESignature where < 1279873255 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :import DigitalRights < 1279873257 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1279873408 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :version controlled legal documents with clearly notated dependencies and unambiguous meaning. :) < 1279873486 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pesky bugs. < 1279874027 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1279874078 0 :wareya!~wareya@cpe-74-70-142-220.nycap.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279875989 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279876419 0 :aaaaa!~hawk@217.118.66.102 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279876634 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-66.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279876779 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1279877641 0 :mquin!~freenode@freenode/staff/mquin JOIN :#esoteric < 1279877646 0 :aaaaa!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Excess Flood < 1279877671 0 :aaaaa!~hawk@217.118.66.102 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279877714 0 :aaaaa!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :K-Lined < 1279878585 0 :IamLM!~IamLM@c-24-0-222-66.hsd1.de.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279878652 0 :IamLM!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1279878675 0 :IamLM!~IamLM@c-24-0-222-66.hsd1.de.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279878686 0 :IamLM!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1279878944 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279878964 0 :IamLM!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279879659 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1279879682 0 :jix!~jix@tomakin.h-ix.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279879922 0 :Quadrescence!~Quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence JOIN :#esoteric < 1279879940 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h218.36.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279879961 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1279881929 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1279883099 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I'm using NO SCRIPT WHATSOEVER - Download it at file:///dev/null < 1279884066 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1279884801 0 :Madk!~Madk@c-71-63-79-112.hsd1.va.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279886718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1279886782 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279886922 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you please tell me if you know the portable way of calling external programs using C codes? < 1279886983 0 :wareya!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there one? < 1279887009 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system(3) < 1279887067 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me if this way is OK http://sprunge.us/RhYH < 1279887300 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to work on Windows and on UNIX systems < 1279888275 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about the Windows side, but the Unix side should perhaps use waitpid() with the just-obtained pid, instead of just wait(). And you may want to return something like "WIFEXITED(status) ? WEXITSTATUS(status) : -1" to get a more reasonable number out. < 1279888333 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system(3) would do the waiting for you, but there's the shell-metacharacter problems if you want to be sure your argv gets passed directly as-is. < 1279888404 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Admittedly seems that system(3) on this system returns the wait return value directly, so you might as well.) < 1279888633 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OK < 1279888727 0 :FireyFly!~firefly@unaffiliated/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1279888753 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1279888789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess for correctness the _spawnvp first argument should be _P_WAIT and not a literal 0, even though it probably is the same thing. < 1279889064 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION should not have stayed up all night reading a chatlog
< 1279889181 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1279890571 0 :Wamanuz4!~wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279890709 0 :Madk!~Madk@162.84.95.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279892017 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h10.54.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279892171 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1279892201 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will see if this program works, anyways < 1279892209 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I can test it only on Windows < 1279892352 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, was it alise who asked me if I can change CWEAVE to print spaces in strings as actual blank spaces? I have done so. (However, I have not yet made it print "\n" as the "n" in a circle or diamond, mostly because I don't know how!) < 1279892377 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Do you know how?) < 1279893195 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's CWEAVE? < 1279893243 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What's CWEAVE? < 1279893272 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madk: It is part of CWEB. Although in this case, it is Enhanced CWEB. < 1279893287 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Enhanced CWEB is my own version of CWEB with many changes and improvements) < 1279893290 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1279893298 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madk: Not yet. Sorry. < 1279893303 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to cweb? < 1279893316 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To the standard CWEB? < 1279893318 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1279893349 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~uno/cweb.html < 1279893369 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please note that Enhanced CWEB has a lot of differences and new features, including meta-macros < 1279893380 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you will have to wait for Enhanced CWEB < 1279893421 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So this is like a documentation system? < 1279893473 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madk: That is one thing it is. But it is more. < 1279893478 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok < 1279893502 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what "n" in a cricle or diamond are you talking about? < 1279893513 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a specific character? < 1279893693 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/cweb2.png for an example of what I mean. See how "\n" is currently printed as overtyped \n but someone suggested instead making it the "n" inside of another shape, which I agree is better but I don't know how to do that in TeX < 1279893812 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1279893825 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is it overtyped? < 1279893839 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems like you might use a similar method < 1279894092 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New features in Enhanced CWEB also include the line numbers printing (those are the 373 and 393 on the right side of the page), metamacros, section arguments, various new ways of printing many things, bug fixes, section counting (using @4 code), and make rules (by the use of a third program CSPIDER, which is in addition to CTANGLE and CWEAVE which are the two main programs) < 1279895552 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you have any additional feature suggestions, I can ocnsider it. < 1279895721 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279896407 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :feature suggestions he says? oh ho... < 1279896410 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CakeProphet < 1279896448 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs moar time travel. < 1279897253 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, can I use it to develop agilely? < 1279897267 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :USE AGILITY, PIKACHU < 1279897627 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what about METABASTRACTION METASYNTAX? < 1279897641 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for metaevaluating metavalues < 1279897948 0 :boily!~boily@poste205-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1279898018 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279898036 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! I am sorry that the time on my computer is a bit off (and when I fix it, it is still a bit off). < 1279898058 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is METABASTRACTION METASYNTAX? < 1279898091 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ocnsider/consider/ < 1279898238 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1279898827 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When we play D&D we often have to remind the DM of various things: that my character is not Batman, Superman, Spiderman, a cockroach, or a human; that Obkwag can speak normally but cannot fly; that Obkwag is present; that my brother's character has afflicted lycanthropy and is wearing a black cloak; that my character and Obkwag both have good alignment; that skill checks normally do not have automatic hit/miss on natural 20/natural 1; ........ < 1279898852 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: What edition of D&D do you play? < 1279898902 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.5 edition < 1279898947 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nevertheless, the game still works. < 1279899069 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I (and my team) can always win because I always do unexpected stuff. < 1279899135 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remarkably, this DM is still good at doing it (even better than most DMs), despite all of this confusion. < 1279899277 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Out of curiousity, how do you feel about roguelikes? Like, disklike, ... ? < 1279899282 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*dislike < 1279899296 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I like to play some roguelikes sometimes. < 1279899303 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have written a few. < 1279899332 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/100level.zip http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/GAMES/RL/KING.ZIP < 1279899400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, indeed. I didn't know that. I wrote one once... very large-scale, written in Perl, kind of pushed the memory limits, and I think it might be lost forever (I'll have to dig up those backup cds at some point and see if i can find it.) < 1279899447 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both of these files I posted, I have written in less than a day. The second one has proper instructions but the first one is, part of the game is to figure out how everything works even by yourself! < 1279899460 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I could not honestly tell you what I was talking about. < 1279899468 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have a mechanism for lazy evaluation though? < 1279899477 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I ever wrote a similar one, I'd have to use some kind of external storage management instead of trying to keep everything in in-memory hashes. < 1279899510 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Well, sort of. < 1279899511 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279899548 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: how can you "sort of" lazily evaluate? < 1279899597 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Do you mean Enhanced CWEB? It would take a while to explain how it works and how that is. < 1279899620 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Well, I know I can "'sort of' lazily evaluate"... a language design I haven't finished yet revolves around it :) < 1279899622 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some things are deferred to other stages. < 1279899624 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I assume so. Whatever language you were talking about. < 1279899672 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stages? < 1279899703 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is the preprepreprocessor stage, the prepreprocessor stage, the preprocessor stage... < 1279899720 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enhanced CWEB doesn't do the preprocessor stage. That is done by whatever C compiler you are using to compile it with. < 1279899775 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so then < 1279899789 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I generate an infinite list of fbbonacci numbers ? < 1279899827 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you can make some kind of lazy evaluation using the @$ ... $< command < 1279899905 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: As far as I know, you can't do it at the prepreprocessor stage. Although the C codes can do whatever you can write in C, including C preprocessor codes. < 1279899914 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes. The portal time code. < 1279899925 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, once I finished and posted the program, you are welcome to try these things if you want to! < 1279899979 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never worked on a compiler before. I suppose I could design lazy evaluation into a runtime though. < 1279900047 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is an example of the funny way of writing the beer program in Enhanced CWEB, just for demonstration (it does work, but it isn't how you would normally write any program!): http://sprunge.us/Ldbj < 1279900159 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....wat < 1279900185 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like esolang + C with macros + CPP < 1279900222 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sort of, except that you can also print out your programs, with index and formatting and everything like that. < 1279900283 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Check out Cardinal on the wiki, it's almost done :D < 1279900339 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "normal" way of writing "99 bottles of beer" program in Enhanced CWEB would be not like this, it would be the same way you write it in C, except that you might add a documentation section. < 1279900382 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: okay, so I think I found metamacros. 2 < 1279900385 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*@ < 1279900396 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No that is just a named section. < 1279900408 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A metamacro is defined by @m and invoked by @- < 1279900409 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that "executes" a set of CPP directives in that compilation stage? < 1279900460 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is @d? < 1279900490 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A named section is just a way to organize codes, with section numbers and cross references. You can include a named section any number of times in different other sections (although usually only once, but sometimes more than once), it is like a prepreprocessor macro. < 1279900548 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@d is just a #define that is global, so it is placed at the top of the file when compiling the program. When printing it out though, it is printed in the same place it is typed in. < 1279900580 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1279900588 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is entirely incomprehensible to me. < 1279900590 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In addition, @d allows you to create multiple line #defines without needing to type the \ at the end of each line, it will automatically put them there. < 1279900632 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@* starts a titled section, which will be listed in the table of contents. < 1279900648 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... well. I see how the named sections uses define and undef to turn plural on and off. Neat trick. :) < 1279900652 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ (that is, at sign with a space after) is a section that is not listed in the table of contents. < 1279900711 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a sane way to structure data in the preprocessor stage, rather than resorting to C structs? < 1279900799 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Can you give an example so that I can understand more clearly what you want? I think there surely is a way. < 1279900809 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er... nevermind. I'm going to figure out this program first < 1279900830 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know yet until you tell me more specifically what you might wanted < 1279900859 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X(on_wall@,br)@ two questions. 1) from what I can tell X only takes on argument, by can you give it two or three? 2) why does on_wall and X have an @ and not br? < 1279900877 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/on/one < 1279900886 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/by/why/ < 1279900887 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1279900910 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The @, is not the same as a comma, it just tells it to make sure to put a space there when printing out the program. < 1279900918 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When compiling the program it is the same as a space. < 1279900963 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The @; tells it to print it as if there was a semicolon there, but make it invisible; however, it is the same as a space when compiling. < 1279900981 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :....what? < 1279900982 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1279900984 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The @ sign always goes with the single character after it. < 1279901028 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Typing "X(on_wall br)" will work just as well, but the printing is neater with the extra @, and @; in there. < 1279901083 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...so they mean nothing semantically? < 1279901094 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When writing normal programs, it will normally format nearly everything correctly anyways, so you won't need @, and @; and so on. < 1279901105 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is this program abnormal? < 1279901109 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the @, and @; mean nothing semantically. They are only there to make the printout neater. < 1279901128 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is abnormal because it is not the way you would normally write such a program! < 1279901133 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.......... < 1279901143 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously. I was hoping for something more specific. < 1279901150 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is good for demonstrating the techniques in case some of them might be more useful in some other programs. < 1279901168 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@4? < 1279901196 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@4 counts the number of times the named section has been used. < 1279901208 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the first time it will be zero, the second time one, the third time will be two, and so on. < 1279901217 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1279901252 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another question. why does it undefine and then redefine plural immediately afterwards. It seems to me like that would amount to nothing. < 1279901337 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, it defines it as a blank value, so that it will expand into nothing (this is a standard feature of the C preprocessor). < 1279901352 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The #undef is not strictly needed, but some compilers might emit warnings if you do not do it. < 1279901352 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah, right < 1279901383 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you do comparisons and subtraction in macro-land? Is there another stage that does arithmetic somewhere? < 1279901423 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't aware that the C pre-processor could do #if beers==1 < 1279901425 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, those are also standard parts of the C preprocessor. The C preprocessor can do arithmetic and comparisons. < 1279901439 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1279901450 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can a named section pretty much substitute into any part of the program? < 1279901459 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, any part. < 1279901470 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I assume @c = C code < 1279901497 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. @c is just an unnamed code section < 1279901506 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While @< is a named code section. < 1279901529 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wait.. you can put anything in @c then? < 1279901537 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The unnamed sections are the ones which are directly entered into the C code seen by the compiler. < 1279901542 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How does it distinguish between what is C and what is not C? < 1279901553 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1279901560 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes you can put any valid C codes in @c however if you want an at sign in the code, you must put @@ instead < 1279901568 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1279901578 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was asking if you could put any CWEB code in a @c section < 1279901599 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as with named sections < 1279901626 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, there are some CWEB codes valid in a @c section (the same ones are valid in a @< section). < 1279901646 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, @4 is useless in an unnamed section (it will always be zero). < 1279901667 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I think I'll leave @m for another day, perhaps? It looks too esoteric. < 1279901690 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@* comment? or some kind of title section? < 1279901717 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@* is a titled section. The title will appear in the table of contents. < 1279901730 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not really sure I understand the point of the prinout. Builtin documentation of sorts? < 1279901743 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought @ with a space was titled section? < 1279901759 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every section (other than limbo) has up to three parts: Documentation section, definition section, and code section. < 1279901772 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the printout can be used for documentation of sorts < 1279901851 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@ with a space is a non-titled section. The text after it is just the documentation part of that section. < 1279901859 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can see that the metamacro is where the magic happens. :) < 1279901873 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any TeX codes are valid in a documentation part. < 1279901887 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay. so @* makes a title, and then everything after the first line is docuemtnation until it encounters the next section code. < 1279901898 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes the metamacro (the @m) is where the real magic happens in this example! < 1279901921 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad it looks like complete gibberish. character-based instructions? < 1279901966 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: No, not quite. Everything up to the . is the title. after that it is treated just like a normal documentation section, until the definition part (@d or @r) is reached, the code part (@c or @<...@>=) is reached, or a new section is reached (with @ space or @*) < 1279901968 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wewt http://floatation.webs.com/Cardinal.zip < 1279902013 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what is @r? < 1279902019 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The documentation part of a section is the only required part, although it is allowed to be empty. (You can just write "@ @c" to just begin a section of C codes with no documentation) < 1279902022 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279902024 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@r is a make rule. < 1279902043 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They are printed out as typewriter text with an integral sign at the front. < 1279902090 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you explain the purpose of the focus on documentation? Just a design choice? < 1279902110 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWEAVE prints them, CTANGLE ignores make rules, and CSPIDER ignores anything other than make rules (that is, not counting the preprepreprocessor (@i @m @-) which are valid everywhere. < 1279902114 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make rule = Makefile right? < 1279902123 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, sort of like a makefile. < 1279902135 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is a new way, an improvement of makefiles, a bit. < 1279902138 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but a custom Makefile language. < 1279902155 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279902174 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is @i? < 1279902195 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@i is tells it to include a file. < 1279902246 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should I just read some kind of language spec to understand these metamacros? < 1279902251 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At the preprepreprocessor level) < 1279902259 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :parts of it remind me of Befunge < 1279902298 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Not quite yet, but when I post it, just read the corresponding sections in common.dvi hopefully the cross-references and everything else there will help understand it a bit < 1279902306 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: hmmm... so could you have used @i instead of #include for stdio? I don't see why not. < 1279902355 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Only if you have a CWEB file for stdio. < 1279902367 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise you can't (and shouldn't). < 1279902407 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not a direct text substition? < 1279902424 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You normally wouldn't use @i for such things as that, since everything included by @i is also included in the printout. < 1279902425 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it stuff like @@ that needs worrying about? < 1279902432 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1279902476 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Stuff like @@ is one thing. But also, @i includes at the preprepreprocessor stage, the C compiler does not see it. #include is done at the C preprocessor stage, which the C compiler can set defines and so on, have things specific to the platform, and so on. < 1279902508 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you use #include the actual #include line will be printed out, not the contents of the file. < 1279902575 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should convince calamari to use Enhanced CWEB instead of C for the low-level OS code. :) < 1279902577 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might, for example, include format definitions or metamacros in a @i include file, or a heading you want printed in every file. < 1279902604 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You can do that! Anything written in Enhanced CWEB can work anytime C is usable. < 1279902618 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regardless of what C compiler is being used. < 1279902672 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, so what I was saying about data structures < 1279902685 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is basically a way to define data structures that only exist in various processing stages. < 1279902714 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you do not have to structure data purely within the C level (structs, unions, etc) < 1279902791 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the only data in (pre)+processing is text. So I'm not sure what kinds of structures you could make. < 1279902811 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is something like this what you are talking about? Where you can have "@c typedef struct { @ } xyzabc;" and then you can defined @ multiple times, all the definitions will be concatenated and included in that structure. < 1279902847 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. < 1279902865 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also use metamacros and C preprocessor inside of named sections, to be able to use structured data in multiple ways. < 1279902884 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of a purely compilation stage entity. But I suppose you could arrange it so that you preprocess a C struct as well. < 1279902919 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know exactly what you are trying to do. < 1279902932 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably because I don't either. :) < 1279902952 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1279902997 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it's not entirely obvious how CWEB structures itself. For example, if I wanted to make a networking library that you could include via @i, that required no knowledge of the C code being substituted. How would you structure that? < 1279903157 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the library is a separate program, it should not generally be written to be included via @i, you would use the normal way of doing that in C. However, you still might use @i to simply add the necessary #include and @r into it, and add in the formatting for any words you wanted formatted specially in the printout (such as if you want them bold, or using Greek letters, etc) < 1279903200 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so basically... < 1279903203 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That is, you might want to format some identifiers in bold, such as names of types created with typedef. For typedefs included in the program already, CWEB will automatically do this.) < 1279903213 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when you implement libraries in CWEB... you're actually just implementing them in C? < 1279903236 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Yes, mostly. Although you can do it in other ways too, if you want to. < 1279903262 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the more structure you can provide that isn't explicitly C code, the better. < 1279903335 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps with named sections. < 1279903339 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You can still provide structure that isn't explicitly C code. But if you are writing a library, you would usually make most of it external and dealt with by the C compiler. There are exceptions however, depending on what the library is and how it works. < 1279903347 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Named sections is one thing you might use. < 1279903372 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For advanced use, metamacros can also be used. < 1279903380 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are many ways to do it. < 1279903417 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use metamacros to block off a section so that it won't be included in the printout, if you want to. < 1279903441 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has absolutely no interest in printouts, only in the executing result.
< 1279903492 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: In that case, you don't need to worry about blocking off sections in that way, then. < 1279903513 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so is @4 the only sort of pre-processor "state" that exists? < 1279903520 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than define undef I guess? < 1279903536 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :@4 is not a pre-processor state, but a pre-pre-processor state. < 1279903542 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...well < 1279903564 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I meant. I was referring to all stages, and avoiding excess typing. :) < 1279903566 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is also @3 which is a parameter to a named section, and @$ introduces the parameter before transcluding the section. < 1279903596 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example: @$ 42 @; < 1279903614 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now inside of the definion of @ the @3 will expand to 42 < 1279903637 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Half the point of CWEB is to produce delicious delicious TeX. < 1279903647 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :........but.... why? < 1279903652 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand the point of that, at all. < 1279903672 0 :AnMaster!~AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1279903702 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, half of the point of CWEB is producing printouts (TeX)! < 1279903707 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That half is called CWEAVE. < 1279903733 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :source code fetishism? o_o < 1279903768 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, if you have absolutely no interest in printouts, you can still use Enhanced CWEB, you would just use only CTANGLE (and possibly CSPIDER). CWEAVE is the program for making printouts. < 1279903821 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so like.. < 1279903828 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you just make printouts of CWEB code... and stare at them? < 1279903840 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while they... don't execute. < 1279903858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You *read* them. < 1279903875 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You also often refer to them for various purposes, including documentation, cross-referencing, it has an index and table of contents, and so on. < 1279903879 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you familiar with how Knuth makes *books* of his programs? < 1279903885 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like any book. < 1279903912 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of literate programming, but only what it is. < 1279903917 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know nothing about Knuth < 1279903964 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not really I see a point in literate programming either.. < 1279903972 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps some. < 1279903994 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point of literate programming is to make a program *that people read*. < 1279903996 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*really sure < 1279904003 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... You know nothing about Knuth? < 1279904014 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed not. < 1279904020 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may know him for writing The Book on algorithms. < 1279904027 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...nope. < 1279904039 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I've heard his name. But I'm not very formally educated in programming < 1279904044 0 :jcp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1279904044 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just kind of taught myself. < 1279904059 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose CWEB can be good for writing a book about algorithms! < 1279904059 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@72-62-195-2.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279904107 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose well-documented OS code would be nice. But... why not simply use an external documentation tool? < 1279904140 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The point of CWEB is to have a book on *the functioning of the code itself*. < 1279904164 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, at least I find it easier to document programs when it is CWEB, other people have other opinions. In addition, literate programming also has different uses of different opinions by different people. < 1279904206 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the point of literate programming is to make your program a document that happens to include bits for the sake of the computer. < 1279904207 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Generally, the printout of the code and documentation parts of the code is meant to be separate from the user documentation, however it does not necessarily have to be done this way, if you want to do it a different way. < 1279904248 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are many points of literate programming depending on who is doing it! But pikhq's point is the main point it was designed to do. < 1279904259 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't think I get quite as teary-eyed on the idea as you do... < 1279904276 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You have not seen it. < 1279904293 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: You appear to be missing the sheer beauty that is *code that is meant to be looked at*. < 1279904320 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, that main point is very good if writing a book about computer algorithms, for one thing. < 1279904339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: WEB was not used for The Art of Computer Programming. < 1279904351 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was, however, used for TeX (the book). < 1279904382 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know TeX is written in WEB. So, you can make a printout of the program, even. < 1279904405 0 :jcp!~jw@bzflag/contributor/javawizard2539 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279904410 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... CWEB is not an esolang? :o < 1279904418 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways, what it is good for is also a matter of opinion, that can vary, and this is OK, since literate programming can be used for many things. < 1279904437 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Correct, but the metamacro codes is sort of like an esolang, in some ways.... < 1279904460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was the name of that funky pascal -> C translation thing used for tex? Was it CWEB? Or was it something else < 1279904471 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was WEB2C < 1279904479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that sounds about right < 1279904598 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see the benefit of having integrated documentation < 1279904605 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the syntax is just kind of... silly. < 1279904615 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like line noise to me. < 1279904634 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes the original source text not very readable at all. < 1279904711 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I implemented Minimal < 1279904721 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I'm working on Vrejvax :D < 1279905041 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I just read the "literate programming" article on Wikipedia < 1279905052 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is basically just a big circlejerk to Knuth. < 1279905265 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vrejvax GET < 1279905399 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Hah. < 1279905417 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("Hah" is oldspeak for "LOL".) < 1279905501 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: I haven't read it. What I never understood was the number of people who saw literate programming only as some sort of "separate compilation" thing. Instead of seeing it as, er, a form of literacy. < 1279905547 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, literacy is not the best word, obviously. A refinement on a mode of communication. < 1279905567 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there's a term an Arts major would know for what I'm trying to say. < 1279905604 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How 'bout "praxis", to pick one almost at random. < 1279905703 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I use "hah" from time to time. < 1279905707 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually prefer "rofl" to "lol" < 1279906658 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Literate programming can be seen as many different things, and used in many different ways. It can be seen as a form of literacy. Or as different things. There are different people. Even one person can see it in multiple ways depending what you are doing! < 1279906766 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here is a screenshot of part of a page of common.dvi so that you can see a bit about how it works: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_12/cweb2.png Note that the \n overtyped is not that good, it would be better to put "n" inside of another shape such as a circle or diamond, do you know how to make that effect in TeX? < 1279906847 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Why not just "\n"? < 1279906934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what's with the underscores? < 1279906964 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The underscores are like that, it is just how TeX does it, I don't know why exactly < 1279906984 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION shall blame Computer Modern
< 1279907147 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enhanced CWEB formats things like \x2B and \007 fine in C strings already, though (this is one of the improvements I made) < 1279907268 0 :atrapado!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Ex-Chat < 1279907274 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have read printouts of standard CWEB programs before, you would already notice a lot of differences. < 1279907746 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cakeprophet: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainCursion < 1279907751 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUHAHAHAWWAA < 1279908090 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is a "recursive loop"? < 1279908310 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that is when you define a function via itself < 1279908313 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence looping it < 1279908318 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by recursion < 1279908365 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could accept that definition, but BrainCursion doesn't have functions. < 1279908421 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For more information on recursion, feel free to consult http://esolangs.org/wiki/Recursion < 1279908433 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe more to the point, BrainCursion doesn't have *definitions*. You can't define functions recursively, if you can't define anything recursively, if you can't define anything. < 1279908454 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: I'm familiar with the concept of recursion, thanks :) < 1279908464 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice page tho :) < 1279908557 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, I didn't esolang in forever < 1279908562 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get back on it < 1279908611 0 :SevenInchBread!~adam@h217.28.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279908627 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1279908791 0 :myndzi\!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279908821 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cakeprophet: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainCursion < 1279908832 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seveninchbread: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BrainCursion < 1279908836 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CHECK IT OUT MAN < 1279908932 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cakeprophet left, not joined < 1279909007 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1279909114 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1279909409 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also you can just post the link once < 1279909420 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a strange idea, make a variant of spider solitaire, where the cards that are dealt first want to be removed first before the other cards are removed, basically the cards that are dealt earlier want to be removed earlier than the cards that are dealt later < 1279909527 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another idea is a computer game based on scorpion solitaire card, but there are scorpions on the screen and you have to rearrange them, as well as the walls and cards and other objects < 1279909621 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What happens if you get stung < 1279909673 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know! These are just ideas I have come up with, I haven't thought of it completely and haven't implemented these games on the computer < 1279909682 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slereah: The universe ceases to exist < 1279909710 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But perhaps if you get stung it is a timer penalty, or something...... I don't know < 1279909753 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there something wrong with me? I just realized I've written 7 esolang interpreters in less than 5 days < 1279909775 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I need help < 1279909784 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No that just means you can fast programming < 1279909832 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need another idea < 1279909849 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I scoured through the list of unimplemented languages and did a few of those < 1279909856 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I need to come up with another idea < 1279909864 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe something similar to Gravity < 1279909882 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know if you can implement some of the ones on my user page, some are probably unimplementable and others are not detailed enough < 1279909894 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want unimplemented languages, you can do mine! < 1279909902 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Network Headache was implemented once, but the implementation is now gone < 1279909904 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-236-245.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1279909907 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp < 1279909909 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is revolted
< 1279909909 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::3 < 1279909915 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried, but could not do it < 1279909918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows... *Does not have a system libc*. < 1279909930 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each *compiler* ships its own libc. < 1279910043 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :selereah: I'm not that math-oriented, I don't understand a thing most of your language descriptions are talking about o.O < 1279910279 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're functions. < 1279910285 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like functional languages < 1279910290 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlambda and whatnot < 1279910383 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lamda + madk = brainhurt < 1279910592 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279910598 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: It makes "sense" when you think about it. You're not "supposed" to be developing stuff on Windows, so why would you need a system libc to link to? < 1279910717 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I want to see two languages which are categorical duals of each other. OK, maybe "of each other" is redundant in that sentence, but just ending it at "duals" didn't sound right either. < 1279910743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that would be rather tricky, I imagine < 1279910748 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, this needs both languages to be described the same way in category theory. < 1279910775 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just that, I'm sure many different ways of describing them are possible (kind of like the wire-crossing problem in that respect). < 1279910781 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally, objects in the category describing a language represent its data types < 1279910801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why Burro's category only has the one object; not only because it's a group, but also because it only has the one data type < 1279910815 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Still revolting. < 1279910829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, Windows has no libc? < 1279910830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1279910834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I no longer have my copy of that nice category theory text. Well I do, but it's essentially inaccessible to me. I should maybe get another copy. < 1279910839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially when you realise most DLLs are statically linked... < 1279910858 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting that there's a copy of libc inside every DLL. < 1279910868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279910882 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which means that each DLL has its own *heap*. < 1279910915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... I wonder why thinking of new ways to optimise bf in compilers is so much more interesting than actually implementing those optimisation passes... < 1279910917 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is, like, a pessimal system setup. < 1279910924 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, maybe. I do suspect heaps are implemented with some Windows API call, or are at least supposed to be. < 1279910948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: A malloc heap works pretty much the same on Windows as it does on UNIX. < 1279910964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that *there's multiple heaps going around* and so APIs need to be designed around that. < 1279910978 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: That's... unfortunate. < 1279910984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what does it use to replace brk/sbrk then? < 1279910992 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mmap. < 1279910993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since those would just not work very well with multiple heaps < 1279910996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, ah right < 1279910999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works quite okay < 1279911010 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the Win32 equivalent thereof. < 1279911034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though having a single one per process would be rather better in most cases. < 1279911054 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It works just fine, but ugggh. < 1279911065 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No wonder Windows systems are slow, bloaty, and memory hogs. < 1279911068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though I can think of contrived use cases where one per DLL would reduce fragmentation. Note the word "contrived" however!) < 1279911082 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Half-guessing here, but the one object would have... arrows to itself? Representing... the group identities? < 1279911091 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in those contrived cases, the DLLs where its relevant can have their own malloc. < 1279911102 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(see: the "memory pool" idiom) < 1279911105 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: actually, every single Burro program is an arrow from the object to itself < 1279911114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/its/it's/ < 1279911118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the identities are there, but so are other programs too < 1279911147 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I see... < 1279911148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes. Memory pools are sometimes useful inside single processes as well. Stuff like a memory pool optimised for allocating cons cells in a lisp implementation comes to mind) < 1279911153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, s/)// < 1279911165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yup. < 1279911177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(to reduce overhead from lots and lots of small objects of same size) < 1279911268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm out. Have a good weekend, folks. < 1279911271 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1279911271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cya < 1279911408 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1279911536 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279911550 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279912398 0 :Phantom_Hoover!59f2aed5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.242.174.213 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279912448 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, in a fit of boredom I looked through the tutorial for Agda. < 1279912528 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have come to the conclusion that the type checker works like Santa. < 1279912633 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1279912722 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279912768 0 :Wamanuz5!~wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279912976 0 :Wamanuz4!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1279913217 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1279913260 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... now one can construct cat program in that new esolang I'm working on: "Xe180He8O0PW118eeeQQQ118Q1O 08DO". < 1279913297 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that space is don't care, it can be replaced by any 1 unicode codepoint and program will still work. < 1279913391 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1279913464 0 :Madk!~Madk@162.84.95.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279913846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, so why is that char needed at all? < 1279913929 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I need to load word to stack that is 14 greater than length of code that loads it. In this case, I needed to burn 5 codepoints and used '1O 08' to burn it. < 1279914140 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As '1O 08' is NOP if there is some (x,NAA) value on the top of stack. < 1279914183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that esolang seems to have all the worst qualities of machine code, with none of the advantages < 1279914192 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually pretty impressive < 1279914200 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better 5-codepoint NOP would be '1O 0O'. < 1279914319 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there really is special value NAA (not an address; that can only be present as second component of tuple). < 1279914395 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Attempting to load effective address of NAA or write to NAA errors out. < 1279914468 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that code doesn't even use memory operators (2 and 3) or swap memory operators (4, 5, 6 and 7). < 1279916484 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1279916564 0 :Phantom_Hoover!59f2aed5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.242.174.213 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279916612 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be an interesting thing to do to create an OS that can use an arbitrary language for its lowish-level structure? < 1279916666 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of like the kwrap interface where you call syscalls through stdout and get return values from stdin, but less clunky and more general. < 1279917073 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279917191 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279917299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo! < 1279917321 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goodness, the wifi from this sofa is much better than the other one... < 1279917325 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tempts fate
< 1279917361 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1279917556 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, is it just me, or does kwrap sound like PSOX? < 1279917566 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just you. < 1279917578 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, wait, not literally. < 1279917615 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, they're very similar. < 1279917646 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, kwrap basically only works on 32-bit Linux, and is very very low-level. < 1279917700 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PSOX looks much more abstract than that, am I right? < 1279917723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1279917804 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case, the interfaces are too difficult for practical use. < 1279917871 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had something more along the lines of binding an in-language function to some Linux syscalls, with dressing for structs and the like. < 1279918112 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: incidentally, did that ActiveWorlds computer go anywhere? < 1279918507 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, haven't touched it in a while, I'm busy doing other stuff < 1279918522 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1279918645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I have come to the conclusion that the type checker works like Santa. <-- giving presents to nice children once every year? < 1279918695 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it just *knows* whether a program is well-typed. < 1279918711 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even when I can't work out how it could possibly do so. < 1279918713 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah XD < 1279918722 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no actually santa keeps a list < 1279918731 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no magic involved < 1279918732 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I assume it does; I haven't got a copy to hand. < 1279918777 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But for it to have any validity as a theorem prover, it would have to work within some parameters, which seem to include magic < 1279918781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, there is no difference between magic and a type system based on sufficiently complicated math < 1279918794 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically. < 1279918825 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed, the type system *is* sufficiently complicated math. I wouldn't be surprised if they develop the theory behind it using it. < 1279918849 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1279918858 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279918877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, "I wouldn't be surprised if they develop the theory behind it using it." <-- eh? < 1279918890 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-66.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279918898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, that seems like a strange idea < 1279918908 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agda is a proof assistant, the "proof" part of which comes from its type system. < 1279918913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unlikely to give a working type system < 1279918967 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The type checker also checks the proofs, along with some other things, like a termination checker. < 1279918996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the language is sub-tc then < 1279919003 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1279919013 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would have to be, because of its nature. < 1279919067 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All functions have to be provably terminating, which leads to problems with some things. < 1279919085 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thought well-typedness implied termination in such languages
< 1279919090 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1279919133 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can have a well-typed division function that doesn't always terminate, I think. < 1279919403 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1279919664 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I just persuaded someone to learn C first instead of C# as a first language < 1279919758 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i raped and killed two children today < 1279919844 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you trying to compare C as a first language to being raped? < 1279919847 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put csharp-mode.el in my Emacs' autoload path today. Now it's all "ad-handle-definition: `indent-according-to-mode' got redefined" and "Variable binding depth exceeds max-specpdl-size" and the tabulator key no longer works. < 1279919880 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1279919916 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Got some sort of implementation of all opcodes (including extension loader opcodes). 1169 of C++ code total. < 1279919919 0 :Madk!~Madk@162.84.95.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279920174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm which UK timezone is BST? < 1279920181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :daylight saving or normal? < 1279920211 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: really? hmmm... < 1279920213 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1279920219 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C# is a fine first language. < 1279920227 0 :SevenInchBread!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :CakeProphet < 1279920237 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most annoying product of someone learning Java or C# first < 1279920246 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that they'll call functions "methods" for a while. < 1279920257 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said that some might say not to go with C# as a first language to avoide IDE and/or Microsoft dependence < 1279920267 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. yes. < 1279920274 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IDE dependence mainly. Not so much Microsoft. < 1279920280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would suggest python or C as first language to learn < 1279920289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that or scheme < 1279920306 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python was my first language learned. I highly recommend < 1279920314 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get OO, procedural, and a little bit of functional < 1279920316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, first language for me was AppleScript XD < 1279920316 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all in one language. < 1279920326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back during MacOS 8 < 1279920337 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my first experience with closures and higher-order functions came from Python. < 1279920339 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VB5 was mine. Highly disrecommend. I think I acquired IDE-to-make-GUIs dependence < 1279920357 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iterators/lazy-evaluation < 1279920384 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only thing you don't really encounter in Python is non-significant whitespace and static typing. < 1279920394 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279920407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, python's OO is weird < 1279920409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very weird < 1279920409 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static typing took me a while to... understand. I remember being confused as to why you would ever want to restrict yourself in that way. < 1279920429 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's not too weird, really. It's about the same, but there's no arbitrary restrictions like public/private. < 1279920431 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-13-66.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279920449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, there is no encapsulation you mean. Which is rather a bad thing. < 1279920459 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes a lot of sense in the context of a duck typed language. < 1279920472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well duck typing doesn't make sense IMO < 1279920479 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1279920484 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is one way to declare things private < 1279920490 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by beginning the name with a single underscore. < 1279920509 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I rarely used it. < 1279920509 0 :Jackson!468c1870@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.140.24.112 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279920515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, can't you still call it from outside that class? < 1279920526 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python actually helped me to understand why it might make sense for private members to not be exposed to child classes < 1279920528 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi Jackson < 1279920530 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't quite remember, honestly. < 1279920537 0 :Jackson!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1279920538 0 :Jackson!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest15287 < 1279920548 0 :Guest15287!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed my nick? < 1279920563 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, if someone else registered that nick, maybe NickServ renamed you < 1279920563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess services did because someone else registered that nick before < 1279920576 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: No route to host < 1279920576 0 :Guest15287!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh < 1279920580 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also, duck typing doesn't make sense? < 1279920581 0 :Guest15287!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brb guys < 1279920582 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you sured? < 1279920585 0 :Guest15287!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1279920590 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-d < 1279920649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I think it makes no sense to have it, considering there are lots of better alternatives < 1279920653 0 :Activeworlds!468c1870@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.140.24.112 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279920662 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright < 1279920668 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb < 1279920671 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks < 1279920694 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah, such as interfaces and such? < 1279920699 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm going to learn C first, I need some free tutorials.... for extreme n00bs < 1279920721 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: do you have a good IDE? That's an important first step. < 1279920732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, yes but I was primarily thinking about type classes < 1279920736 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION personally doesn't know of any C tutorials.
< 1279920745 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah. < 1279920750 0 :Madk!~Madk@162.84.95.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279920758 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah okay < 1279920771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C isn't an esolang as such < 1279920772 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, in Python typeclasses would make sense. For the language Python is, duck typing makes the most sense. < 1279920778 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*make no sense < 1279920779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so probably not the best channel to ask in < 1279920791 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I asked Activeworlds to come here because of the discussion about first languages < 1279920798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1279920800 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FILTH IS ALMOST TO FRUITITION :D < 1279920804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, scheme is nice < 1279920805 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: C is a esolang what are you talking about? < 1279920813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, SCIP and so on < 1279920817 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is not an esolang :? < 1279920820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, read again < 1279920863 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme's syntax is also utterly different from any other non-Lisp language < 1279920875 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, kind of < 1279920889 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, I don't know. I suppose you could work typeclasses into Python. The thing with Python is that EVERYTHING should be represented as data somewhere. So if you have a way to declare typeclass instances, you need to be able to store that information on the class itself somewhere. < 1279920918 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :similar to __dict__, __bases__, __mro__, etc < 1279920953 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say being highly reflective is something Python got right. < 1279920956 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds, is the goal to help with the project, or just to learn programming? < 1279920987 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: I personally don't mind helping you learn C. We talk about all sorts of crazy things so I don't really see it as being off-topic or anything. < 1279921053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, __slots__ is another nasty hack < 1279921059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that mode should be the default < 1279921071 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1279921089 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My most prominent goal is to assist with the project < 1279921095 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While learning a language < 1279921102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what project? < 1279921118 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A C# project < 1279921127 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: perhaps it should. My traditional Pythonista sense disagrees, with me. But I have no way to defend that position. :P < 1279921138 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to start in C#, but I've been told by more than just Sgeo that it is very Microsoft dependent and shouldnt be a first language < 1279921150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, -_- < 1279921160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why are you using C# for anything? < 1279921166 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1279921170 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It wasn't my decision < 1279921173 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a friend who started with C#, and he seems to be doing fine with other languages. Granted, the only other language he's looked at is Java... < 1279921177 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's almost the same language. < 1279921186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, python currently seems rather tricky to statically compile in an efficient way < 1279921187 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he did complain about Eclipse in comparison to Visual Studio < 1279921190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having that would be nice < 1279921219 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, at the expense of many other nice things that Python can do at runtime. Things that are actually used in practical programs, as well. < 1279921243 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does py2exe do? Bundle an interpreter? < 1279921251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1279921257 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: pretty much < 1279921259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, think so < 1279921292 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: but I do agree, /syntax/ support for slots would make it far less ugly. Maybe, you know, a way to declare variables in a given scope < 1279921320 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but adding syntax to Python is apparently sacrilege. < 1279921322 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1279921328 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I finished my filth interpreter coding < 1279921374 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the goal is to help on the project, C# probably isn't such a terrible first language, as long as .. hmm < 1279921382 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't sure
< 1279921395 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really don't think learning C# will cripple you in the future, honestly < 1279921412 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if you strive to be an excellent programmer (which is a matter of choice and I suppose talent) < 1279921439 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I came out from Python alright, didn't I? :) < 1279921446 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to try and run the hello world example < 1279921447 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and someone else from VB < 1279921455 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully it works :| < 1279921455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that the good bits of OO is just syntax sugar. The bad bits are just a bad idea < 1279921464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like inheritance < 1279921467 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's stinking complex < 1279921474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: BST is daylight-saving, UTC+1 < 1279921479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1279921482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal is GMT, UTC+0 with marginally different lea second rules < 1279921487 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*leap second < 1279921488 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Our system is exactly equivalent to the traditional axiom system in most logic textbooks but has the advantage of being easy to manipulate with a computer program." < 1279921493 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I came out from VB5 alright < 1279921494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ TZ=BST date < 1279921494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fre jul 23 20:44:21 BST 2010 < 1279921495 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong window < 1279921499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why is that same as date -u then? < 1279921502 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am GUItally disabled < 1279921504 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'd be interested in drafting up a language with prototype OO and composable objects. :) < 1279921506 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1279921510 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work D; < 1279921517 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope it's an easy fix :/ < 1279921539 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo... maybe someone here is willing to help in our project? < 1279921542 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ah, then perhaps VB5 is an exception to my statement. Understandably. < 1279921543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, go do so then < 1279921566 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wouldn't know where to start. Someone else (probably alise) would claim to know exactly what to do and that I was doing everything completely wrong. < 1279921569 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :activeworlds: what is your project? < 1279921570 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck 'em, I suppose? < 1279921598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, but alise always claims that about stuff he didn't do himself. < 1279921624 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is true. But perhaps he WOULD have a good idea, and I should consult this people with their good ideas on composable objects. :) < 1279921631 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/this/these/ < 1279921633 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consensus seems to agree with alise wrt PSOX < 1279921640 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Madk, a game < 1279921652 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgeo: what kind? < 1279921664 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what are you looking for help to do, exactly < 1279921671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well sure but don't let him do it himself. Then he will get stalled trying to think of a name for it < 1279921690 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: unfortunately I'm working on my own game projects. Two actually: a text-based RP-centered game for my own enjoyment, and an Android game app that I intend to make money off of. < 1279921723 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: but I suppose I could help in small amounts. < 1279921728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fairly uninterested in coding games personally < 1279921749 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's nothing theoretically interesting. But it's fun to program. :) < 1279921769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :game programming can be theoretically interesting if you make interesting games < 1279921792 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: is C# required? I'm fine with it, just wondering. Haskell is my language of choice these days. I assume you're still working off of that library correct? < 1279921868 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: a game with TIME-STRETCH PROJECTILE puzzles? < 1279921874 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1279921883 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've already told everyone about this. < 1279921893 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this currently unimplemented idea. < 1279921896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's C#, although I'd have no problem if you were to, say, add in a bit of F# (I really want to learn F# I think). By "that library". you mean? < 1279921925 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: eh, I really DONT want to learn F# actually. But I base this on blind prejudice and brief glancing of source and a wikipedia article. < 1279921931 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my interest in game design lies in designing impossible controls and learning to use them < 1279921940 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance my gravity based games < 1279921941 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: the library written in C# that requires you to use C#/.NET < 1279921954 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: oh? How do they work? < 1279921965 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flipping gravity on/off and... another gravity based thing that i leave as a puzzle to ppl usually < 1279921968 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's a C SDK that the .NET stuff is a wrapper for, actually < 1279921970 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm definitely interested in physics manipulation as a puzzle element. < 1279921985 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think there's a nice way to use both < 1279921986 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: ah, so there's bits that could be hacked in C? < 1279922012 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a game where the only movement is to flip gravity, but it's just a ball jumping on polygons, and the level editor is unpublished so you'll just do the same level forever :P < 1279922013 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, well, if you fiddled with the .. I have no clue how C interoperability works in .NET < 1279922015 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: could I play this game? o_o < 1279922025 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: haha. okay. concurrency? < 1279922035 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has gotten particularly good at concurrency as of late.
< 1279922048 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Single-threaded, with a custom-made scheduler to schedule things to occur at later times < 1279922060 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha. "wonderful" < 1279922075 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the SDK is apparently not thread-safe < 1279922085 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, okay. < 1279922106 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends in what way. With the right concurrency design you can ignore that. < 1279922168 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1279922188 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: hmmm, I was thinking of ways I could manipulate gravity in my game, but it will get tricky since I'm using sprite-based graphics. < 1279922194 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rotations and such. < 1279922202 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty much clueless when it comes to concurrency stuff. Would that design just be one thread that interacts with the SDK, and other threads pass messages? < 1279922263 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more or less. message-passing is the simplest way to get it right without stuff like STM (which really only has good support in Haskell, though there are libraries for other langs) < 1279922283 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, did Madk say he was interested? < 1279922309 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted more information, but I've g2g now < 1279922319 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye Madk < 1279922328 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :goodbye < 1279922335 0 :Madk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1279922384 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I'd imagine, but not sure, that the reason it's not thread-safe is that arguments are often passed by setting attributes < 1279922386 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, example: < 1279922397 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I find the easiest way to think about concurrency is in terms of atomic operations. < 1279922432 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To set a position, you might call aw_int_set(AW_MY_X, 0); aw_int_set(AW_MY_Y, 0); aw_int_set(AW_MY_Z, 0); aw_state_change(); < 1279922441 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/Note: Actual names used in the SDK may differ < 1279922450 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: basically, what appears to occur as one action to other threads. < 1279922454 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.79.116 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279922488 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi alise < 1279922508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tetration, constellation, inferior blaxploitative municipal irrigation! All these thoughts occurred to Bjorn at roughly the same time. < 1279922640 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A healthy disregard for public and private safety was what had landed him the job as Anti-Safety Inspector with the County Jail's Holy Roman Catholic Church ... and he wasn't about to give up his free lunch without a fight. < 1279922656 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1279922660 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am entertained. < 1279922761 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, as Heinlein was his opponent, he was soon dissuaded of even any notion of a "free lunch" and immediately signed up with the National Libertarian Register. < 1279922857 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise, please stfu... Please. < 1279922860 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: so element of variety in my game comes from the character's gun. It's a metroid-inspired game, but I intend to have interesting projectiles that are used in puzzles. I'm wondering what sort of puzzles could arise from having an area-of-effect gravity projectile. < 1279922865 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NLR, as all the drug-abusing, sex-addicted kids were calling it in those days, was designed, specifically and expressly, for targeting and eliminating libertarians; that way, they could consider themselves martyrs, and the government could be rid of a rather pesky bunch of irritations. As long as the government kept this both an official "secret" and blabbed about it at every opportunity, this satisfied most everyone. < 1279922873 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it increase or decrease gravity. or reverse direction? hmmm... < 1279922873 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds, hm? < 1279922876 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: And you are? < 1279922880 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Presumably some friend of Sgeo. < 1279922899 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In which case I advise you to not advise me to stfu. < 1279922912 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now hold on a minute < 1279922915 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe fungot has a solution. < 1279922920 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...nope. < 1279922921 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :carry on. < 1279922927 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FUNGOT < 1279922929 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fix it! < 1279922931 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot fungot fungot < 1279922933 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1279922934 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot isn't here. < 1279922936 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn. < 1279922938 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1279922950 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FIZZIE PANIC PANIC PANIC < 1279922956 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot was my main source of inspiration < 1279922959 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why are you here ,alise? < 1279922970 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds, alise is a regular here < 1279922975 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: stop. alise is a regular. < 1279922990 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just because e's not being "on-topic"ish right now [neither are we really] doesn't mean anything < 1279923000 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is never on-topic
< 1279923006 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a simple question, not an attack < 1279923020 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is essentially a general-purpose programming community, with an affinity towards the strange. :) < 1279923028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: because i've been here for a long time, because I have a deep interest in esolangs and computer science, because I am very good friends with many people here < 1279923041 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because dammit I don't need to give you a reason. < 1279923044 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank you alise :) That's all i wanted to know < 1279923054 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well that was easier than I expected. :p < 1279923076 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell print "test" < 1279923085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Even ais523, the strongest defender of on-topicity, has all but given up. ;) < 1279923086 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:) < 1279923086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell putStrLn "test" < 1279923087 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of our bots are gone. the woe! < 1279923092 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, EgoBot isn't here < 1279923110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, the channel may as well not exist if there isn't on-topic conversation < 1279923123 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279923129 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: jumpin' jumpin' < 1279923132 0 :fizzie!fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1279923139 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there often is on-topic conversation though < 1279923143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: We're basically a group of friends. Is socialisation pointless? < 1279923151 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, we're bound together by a strong interest in CS-y stuff. < 1279923155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose so < 1279923156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That drives our conversation. < 1279923159 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Compare us to anywhere else. < 1279923170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I find that like-minded people tend to come across each other anyway, on the Internet < 1279923182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in a place < 1279923184 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*place. < 1279923185 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would compare #esoteric to a non-language-specific version of #haskell :) < 1279923186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is that place. < 1279923193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, maybe < 1279923196 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except... without 700-billion people. < 1279923198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: #esoteric is more intelligent than #haskell nowadays. < 1279923204 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't use to be the case. < 1279923221 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: generally. Everytime I ask a question on #haskell I generally just get told that I should do it their way. :) < 1279923222 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any of you try www.activeworlds.com ? < 1279923227 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is not answering my question at all. < 1279923233 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds, I've probably mentioned it incessantly < 1279923234 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like carrot sticks. And spelling! < 1279923241 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1279923243 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And have been accused of necrophilia < 1279923267 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: do you prefer your corpses fresh or somewhat touched by rigor mortis? < 1279923270 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer the fresh ones. < 1279923281 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still warm. < 1279923283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: There's a general channel-wide groan every time Active Worlds is mentioned (always by Sgeo). < 1279923296 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's all right, we tolerate necrophiliacs. Uh, to a point. < 1279923301 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1279923310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not nearly as bad as the channel-wide groan that comes up when anyone mentions PSOX < 1279923313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be always Sgeo < 1279923317 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nowadays it's more other people being ironic < 1279923344 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :GroanMaster < 1279923357 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is a necrophiliac necromancer.
< 1279923375 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: at least PSOX is /amusing/ < 1279923377 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you just tried the software, a groan wouldn't be neccisary :) < 1279923395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :PSOX < 1279923425 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Used some macroing to reduce number of lines. Now there are 825 C++ code lines total... < 1279923434 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many people here use Linux, not sure how well AW works in WINE. < 1279923438 0 :PSOX!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1279923442 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or other UNIXes possibly < 1279923450 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, not that Linux is a UNIX < 1279923473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it almost is < 1279923483 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can use "POSIX-based OSes" if you want to include the entire set < 1279923484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just *nix < 1279923498 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did try to get people here interested in AW by mentioning the computer I'm planning on building < 1279923507 0 :relet!~hirtho@port-92-206-46-81.dynamic.qsc.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1279923530 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds, check GWave < 1279923552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's become a meme in this channel, thus I mentally filter it out < 1279923555 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like I do with most other memes < 1279923556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :people actually use gwave? < 1279923558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how strange < 1279923560 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION does.
< 1279923565 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it for my android game dev. < 1279923575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : it's become a meme in this channel, thus I mentally filter it out <-- what became a meme? < 1279923579 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though the interface is somewhat atrocious. < 1279923583 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We just decided to start using it yesterday < 1279923583 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might switch to a wiki. < 1279923584 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Active Worlds < 1279923587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1279923588 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of that, 445 lines are part of core, 9 lines are part of extensions and 371 lines are part of standard opcode implementations. < 1279923595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's only Activeworlds' nick that's re-inspired debate < 1279923609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it must be a really disconcerting feeling to join a channel and discover you're already an inside joke there < 1279923665 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shit < 1279923703 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I did that as soon as i woke up < 1279923724 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, if you just tried the software, a groan wouldn't be neccisary :) < 1279923732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, of what? < 1279923755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it would be. I'm almost entirely certain I won't be a fan of some mediocre 3D chatroom "with benefits" from god knows how far back. < 1279923772 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of those 825 lines of C++ code that is first implementation of my new esolang. < 1279923777 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*are < 1279923779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, ah < 1279923785 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, 15 years < 1279923793 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yea, I'm pretty sure it's not a mediocre 3d chatroom < 1279923797 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: would you be a fan of a text-based chatroom "with benefits" written in concurrent Haskell? :) < 1279923800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: Hey, with benefits. < 1279923800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, it was just that there was nothing else said by you in the last screen < 1279923803 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as that is what I'm doing. < 1279923804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: It has OBJECTS. < 1279923812 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Moreso than Active Worlds. < 1279923832 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though one day I might give it hack and slash code < 1279923833 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for fun. < 1279923854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: as in NetHack and Slash'EM's precursors? < 1279923879 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, no. More like a MUSH or an RP MUd if you've ever played one < 1279923885 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not quite a "talker" < 1279923911 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there is code support for the gameplay.... it's just that the gameplay doesn't require much code support in the first place. It's just a bunch of people writing collaborative improv fiction of a sort. < 1279923915 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the perspective of their character. < 1279923923 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with dice rolling for feats. < 1279923925 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You judge and make benighted assumptions of something you know nothing of... < 1279923941 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: he is likely trolling you. I can only assume. < 1279923960 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can understand if you spent a little time in AW, then came back and told people how much you hated it. Now that, that, I'd respect :) < 1279923986 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on IRC, it's often hard to distinguish trolling from legit conversation < 1279923987 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: Jeez; a bit sensitive about AW, aren't we? < 1279923999 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all :) < 1279924003 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'd try out Active Worlds if I didn't have to (a) pay and (b) use Windows. < 1279924007 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually a sophisticated combat system in a concurrent environment would be quite a challenge. I now have a new goal for this project. To give it combat/RPG elements. < 1279924009 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and (c) abandon my dignity. < 1279924012 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't have to pay to try AW < 1279924025 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if I try I won't get the full experience! < 1279924039 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stuff you make might be destroyed by others < 1279924061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, that would be emotionally scarring. < 1279924065 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's only true with certain worlds. < 1279924082 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds, there are worlds that use Guardbot these days? < 1279924083 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, who you decide to bring to your creations < 1279924104 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I belive so ( Haven't checked recently) < 1279924127 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question... can I roleplay my necrophiliac fantasies in this world? < 1279924130 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, i fixed the Wave < 1279924137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : alise: would you be a fan of a text-based chatroom "with benefits" written in concurrent Haskell? :) <-- benefits? Are we talking about a MUD or MOO? < 1279924143 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also a closet furry. do you support anthropomorphic characters? < 1279924153 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are plenty of worlds there that you can roleplay any fantasy you'd like < 1279924160 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm secretly a 1,000,000-foot penis. < 1279924161 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, how can you be a closet when you just announced it? < 1279924166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just doesn't work < 1279924166 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can this be represented accurately in-world? < 1279924174 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: neither. I just use MUD as a general-purpose term for all online text-based games. It is certainly MOO-inspired in system though. < 1279924175 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, we're talking about a chatroom that has sex with you. < 1279924184 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The worlds are tagged with a rating (chosen by the world owner) from G, PG, PG-13, R, to X < 1279924200 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..........I just got massive deja vu < 1279924201 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1279924203 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I don't believe Custom AVs can be nonhuman, but worlds can offer a list of avatars that can be pretty much anything < 1279924205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that is one weird fetishism! < 1279924206 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279924206 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...yeah < 1279924214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: FETISH. < 1279924215 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279924217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The word is "fetish". < 1279924229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, so why does aspell accept that word I used above < 1279924241 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fetishism is also a word but with a different meaning. < 1279924244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, ah < 1279924246 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly different. < 1279924262 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fetishism, to me, refers to the activity of such. < 1279924267 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, you don't always have to pay... I haven't payed for my citizenship in....... Well, atleast 4 years < 1279924274 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"you and your crazy fetishisms" < 1279924277 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1279924280 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know exactly. < 1279924291 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O at Activeworlds < 1279924303 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You didn't know that Sgeo? < 1279924312 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: I do not see much, or rather, any point, in trying something I know that I will almost certainly not like, when I could do things I am pretty sure I will like < 1279924321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*like. < 1279924323 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds, I knew it was for free recently due to the project < 1279924327 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I borrow the idea of context-sensitive commands from MOO. So the lookup starts in your inventory, then to the room, then to the area, then to the player. < 1279924350 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But didn't know about before that < 1279924350 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alise, that's fine... Just don't call it a mediocre 3d chatroom lol... Because it's far from that < 1279924354 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so items, for example, can unlock specific commands. < 1279924361 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as can rooms, with puzzle elements. < 1279924376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Activeworlds: Okay; a rubbish 3D chatroom. (Trolling. Trolling. Pitchforks not necessary. Well, yet.) < 1279924378 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a mediocre 3d chatroom that's programmable with external programs, and somewhat scriptable in-world < 1279924379 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Groanmaster (i feel weird calling u that) , but anyways, bluebean payed for this citizen for years < 1279924397 0 :GroanMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1279924413 0 :Activeworlds!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1279924434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, did I scare him away? < 1279924437 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. < 1279924473 0 :MrJackson_!468c1870@gateway/web/freenode/ip.70.140.24.112 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279924481 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1279924482 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that bad :) < 1279924484 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just had to changem y name < 1279924494 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better way to change your name: /nick newname < 1279924503 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm a n00b to this < 1279924506 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you could be a closet cleaner < 1279924542 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not sure if I want to learn C or C sharp < 1279924568 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because if i learn C, there's no reason for me to implement that knowledge into AW < 1279924590 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it's good for outside programming, but I doubt I'll be doing much of that right now < 1279924613 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implemented "is stack empty" and "enumerate extension instructions" operations. 18 more lines total (6 more lines core, 12 more lines in standard opcode implementations). < 1279924613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if there's a C flat
< 1279924686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: C# is basically terrible, so, not that. < 1279924702 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION goes to check where in the alphabet madk has placed his filth
< 1279924705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo will probably object at this point but more here can object to his objections :) < 1279924707 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn lol, you even troll C#? < 1279924734 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_, you should note that alise is very opinionated in these sorts of things. Not that I necessarily disagree with him, although there is quite a bit of niceness to C# < 1279924745 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably one of the nicer business-level languages < 1279924748 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hey, it has monads, almost < 1279924751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: I'm a grumpy son of a bitch. < 1279924762 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yeah, C# is terrible and that's no trolling. < 1279924763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But alise is opposed to business-related programming, so < 1279924767 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah but have you /seen/ their syntax? < 1279924770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hey, no i'm not < 1279924777 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't recommend the job of 9-to-5 programmer to anyone < 1279924783 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I would actually suport Sgeo in a defense of C#. < 1279924788 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... there. < 1279924791 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i've sort of heard it's sort of SQL based < 1279924792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but you're the only two crazies here who like C#. < 1279924798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yeah. it's /awful/ < 1279924799 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Oh, by the way. The horrible colors in the "color matrix" ufraw selection for fcam were the result of a tiff-writing bug; something to do with writing rationals. < 1279924800 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279924804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, LINQ queries are either trivial or hideous. < 1279924811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, pikhq rivals me as far as opinionatedness goes... < 1279924823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm disappointed by C# < 1279924836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it feels like an initially sane language that contracted C++ syndrome < 1279924840 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C#: It's better than Java! (TM) < 1279924842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Perhaps you should scold it. < 1279924857 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't Mutations first bot in Java? < 1279924872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mouse shit: It's better than dog shit! < 1279924874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What's this about opinions? < 1279924899 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh wth madk is completely overrunning the wiki :D < 1279924900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: They stink! < 1279924910 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: IEP syndrone. < 1279924912 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: LINQ queries are annoying because, frankly, do notation is a better sugar for monads than monad comprehensions. < 1279924916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1279924916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IEP? < 1279924917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Initial Esolanger Prolificity syndrome. < 1279924920 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, C++ syndrome being a glut of features? < 1279924924 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1279924933 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, I should look up "glut" < 1279924937 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ syndrome, n. the syndrome whereby a language sucks. < 1279924938 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(in general; in specific cases, monad comprehensions would be *quite* nice.) < 1279924945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's a specific reason for sucking, to be fair < 1279924948 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: can't i just like, reverse engineer our bot to learn? < 1279924953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are many different ways in which a language can suck < 1279924958 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: No. < 1279924964 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ syndrome, n. Removing the good from a language entirely by adding things to it. < 1279924968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, not if Sgeo's speeches about the Other Coder are anything to go by. < 1279924971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the case of C++ and C#, it's due to adding a whole load of features that could be potentially useful, but are just too much when together < 1279924979 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they are anything to go by, then that will just cause brain damage (moreso than C# itself). < 1279924987 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahaha < 1279924992 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo even mentioned Epsilion? < 1279925002 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION quickly hides
< 1279925014 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's funny, and minde-easing < 1279925017 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind* < 1279925034 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java may suck too, but it doesn't have C++ syndrome < 1279925049 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its main issue is NIH-ness, both in terms of code and in terms of programming paradigms < 1279925056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything has to be made to fit The Java Way < 1279925060 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has its own, unique syndromes. < 1279925066 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just noticed there's a lot of opinion when it comes to programming < 1279925066 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java has Java syndrome. < 1279925079 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My main issue with Java is its lack of first-class functions < 1279925080 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Most* of the suck is in the damned library designs, to be honest. The damned things are designed by crack-smoking-monkeys. < 1279925082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :public static void Java implements JavaSyndrome (okay, yeah, this isn't valid). < 1279925098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you're confusing functions and classes < 1279925100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: Only know that we're correct. Even when we disagree! < 1279925102 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, I know. < 1279925106 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then again, I have little to no Java experience < 1279925112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: sorry, reflex of someone who teaches Java for a living < 1279925114 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We tend to be a bit old-fashioned here, I Guess. < 1279925118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*guess < 1279925119 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Being added! < 1279925120 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except not really. < 1279925122 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's settled, C it is < 1279925131 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :teaching people to avoid their mistakes reflexively saves thinking time for other things < 1279925134 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: For what purpose? < 1279925139 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless you want to help on the project immediately.. < 1279925142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: C is a good language for some things < 1279925143 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: Yes. < 1279925145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: first language < 1279925147 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for many programs, it's hilariously inappropriate < 1279925150 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: Or, wait, can I suggest HASKELL? < 1279925155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C as a first language, that's not terrible < 1279925167 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MrJackson_: You should totally learn Haskell. It's EASY yet PRACTICAL! < 1279925168 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the goal is to eventually work on a C# project < 1279925172 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the purpose of learning basics, and having a basis to programming skills < 1279925174 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: THEY BOTH HAVE MONADS. < 1279925186 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Okay, C's not a terrible choice for that. It has many limitations and all that, but it at least doesn't get you a lot of very poor misconceptions about how machines work. < 1279925192 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, the goal IS to eventually work on a C# project < 1279925215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think people's first languages should be a high-level CSy one and a low-level one < 1279925238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell's also a good choice, but only because you'll disdain almost all other languages. < 1279925241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279925249 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'm going to convince MrJackson_ to learn Haskell. And god knows why! < 1279925254 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: at least we can agree that Haskell is awesome. < 1279925271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Well ... it's not quite theoretical enough ... < 1279925274 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many people have learned Haskell as a first language? < 1279925275 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other fun properties of my new esolang: LF is codepoint just like anything else and it doesn't map to anything valid. As consequence, falling off line causes program to crash and linefeeds are included in jump offsets. < 1279925276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if you learnt just one first language, that an ML variant would be a good idea < 1279925289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no < 1279925298 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: why? I'm interested in your reasoning < 1279925303 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dealing with functional organisation /while/ confusing side-effects around is /not/ a good idea for a first-time programmer < 1279925308 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ML is very good for getting functional shit Done, yes. < 1279925313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but as a first language, it'll only confuse. < 1279925316 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I get your point < 1279925326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is to not mix paradigms until you know the two paradigms individually? < 1279925331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : How many people have learned Haskell as a first language? < 1279925334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My friend, possibly. < 1279925340 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He's expressed an interest. < 1279925348 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think so. < 1279925353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on my Electronic Engineering course, they tought asm and C simultaneously as first languages < 1279925357 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm again and Java the next year < 1279925361 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*taught < 1279925363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then MATLAB the year after that < 1279925365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Otherwise you'll actually develop "functimperative programming" in your head, and that can only be painful. < 1279925368 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, yes, thanks for the correction < 1279925394 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bizarre instructions: '#': Find next LF in program and jump to one instruction after that. < 1279925395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asm+C is not a bad combo, although it's rather low-level < 1279925406 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Going from Haskell straight to C# might be a bad idea < 1279925417 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, if you've got a sane machine language in place, assembly would probably make a decent introduction. < 1279925420 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assembly is a bit pointlses really. x86 at least. < 1279925425 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theoretical RISC, maybe. < 1279925431 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big ball of internal mud... naw. < 1279925432 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(No to modern x86. Just NOOOOOOO...) < 1279925432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: hmm; you'd handle C# just fine, but nobody else would be able to read the resulting code < 1279925453 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MMIX or MIPS or something. < 1279925453 0 :MrJackson_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1279925458 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we were taught PIC16F87 asm, rather than x86 asm < 1279925465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Oh, by the way. The horrible colors in the "color matrix" ufraw selection for fcam were the result of a tiff-writing bug; something to do with writing rationals. <-- hm okay. But what about that count == 1 thing. Got any reply to it? < 1279925528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PIC16F87 asm is pretty simple, in that all commands take 4 cycles except for jumps which always take 8, and conditional skip instructions which take 8 if they skip (they're implemented by replacing the next instruction in the pipeline with a NOP) < 1279925543 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that instruction is useful for putting shellbang in program). < 1279925544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it has around 400 registers, but no RAM, which /is/ unusual < 1279925589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1-byte registers, that is < 1279925597 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: How very... Von Neumann. < 1279925604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the code's in ROM < 1279925605 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I got another dismissive reply; but maybe third time's the charm. (This time he claimed that it's not a problem because SubIFD fields are written with type 4 -- unsigned long -- instead of 13 -- ifd offset -- even though I had just explained my "camera" uses type 13 there. < 1279925618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many of the registers are memory-mapped to something or other < 1279925619 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1279925623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not Von Neumann. < 1279925625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, eh < 1279925625 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not at all. < 1279925632 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I always get those two muddled < 1279925641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe fcam is doing it wrong < 1279925643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :check the docs < 1279925651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or < 1279925652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :specs < 1279925653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather < 1279925663 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not part of any real spec, that's the problem. < 1279925670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah... < 1279925743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's one tech note from Adobe saying that SubIFD field is "type 4 or type 13, but type 13 is peferred", so I'd say fcam is more correct than not; but I guess many (most?) use type 4 still. < 1279925752 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this laptop is awesome < 1279925780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might have more luck in convincing the fcam folks to work-around dcraw brokenness, though; I left a note in the forums a moment ago. < 1279925792 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm writing a little thing for expressing infinitely detailed images in haskell < 1279925806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. an image as R^2 -> N^3 < 1279925843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should it be R, i.e. infinitely big as well as infinitely detailed, or [0,1]? < 1279925847 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think [0,1]. < 1279925874 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And as an aside, the bugtracker is readable without logins (though empty); for some reason the fcam homepage link to it is to "add an issue" page which causes the "you need to login" reply, not the main issue-tracker page. < 1279925985 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, ubuntu's haskell-mode has no indentation < 1279925995 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Emacs? < 1279925998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does for me < 1279926007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab is an indent cycle, Python-style < 1279926013 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's buggy enough that it's more confusing than useful < 1279926046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm did you mention that tech note to the dcraw guy? < 1279926065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's not buggy < 1279926070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haskell is complicated < 1279926076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, it parses Haskell incorrectly < 1279926076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i mean the haskell-mode package in ubuntu < 1279926078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lacks the proper mode < 1279926117 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, twice, but he didn't comment on it. Both replies I have got have contained a couple of paragraphs of general complaining about stupid file formats. :p < 1279926159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ouch. Why does this remind me of that guy who wrote the Ion window manager. < 1279926179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it is such an easy fix too... sigh < 1279926196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did you include your patch btw? < 1279926282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Ever get Minion working? < 1279926297 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279926298 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Minion? No. < 1279926304 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Darn. < 1279926305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Why not? < 1279926308 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279926309 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adobe Reader not have it? < 1279926319 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The single-char fix I had might break other files, if he's currently relying on the "tiff_get seeks to the ifd automatically" behaviour. Some cameras put MakerNotes-type data into tiff ifd directories pointed by nonstandard private fields with type 13, and in those cases probably count==1 and his code expects the automatic seek. < 1279926328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recall why I stopped working on it. < 1279926382 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adobe have that official freeware "DNG Converter" tool (win/osx); I guess it might well use type 4 too, and it's a sort of a "reference implementation", or at least close. (I haven't verified what it does.) < 1279926416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I do have the OTF font... < 1279926454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279926462 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1279926516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Well go on then. < 1279926527 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lglinux.blogspot.com/2007/09/myriad-and-minion-for-latex.html < 1279926727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm < 1279926801 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1279926900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hah, crazy. The garage.maemo.org forums send a email copy of all posts; but someone must've gotten some arguments in the wrong order, because the copy was sent with "From: [my maemo.org account email]" and "To: noreply@garage.maemo.org", and what I finally got was a "noreply: no such user" bounce. < 1279926991 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1279927028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hah. I wonder if that affects all users. If so it ought to be fixed quickly < 1279927029 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully < 1279927187 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll wait and see if it happens again, before complaining anywhere. < 1279927310 0 :Phantom_Hoover!59f2aed5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.89.242.174.213 JOIN :#esoteric < 1279927318 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, back! < 1279927339 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: about your thing about well-typed functions in Agda being strongly normalising. < 1279927426 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They needn't be, since a function can refer to itself. < 1279927512 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, any thoughts on why Microsoft have bought a licence to ARM? < 1279927526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, a license that lets them manufacture modified versions of the things themselves < 1279927534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than just buying a bunch of chips, like most people do < 1279927541 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@75-106-123-171.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1279927581 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, 92% packet loss. < 1279927585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "Research and development purposes", wasn't that the official excuse? < 1279927601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see why they need an "excuse" < 1279927621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even so, I don't get why you'd get that sort of license just for research, they probably have something else in mind < 1279927635 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ARMx86 < 1279927638 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because the real reason is something sinister. < 1279927645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: err, wow < 1279927651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems... ridiculous < 1279927660 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that the ARM technology is not very suited to the x86 instruction set < 1279927697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"With closer access to the ARM technology we will be able to enhance our research and development activities for ARM-based products." < 1279927705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The ONLY Microsoft-approved RAM solution. < 1279927709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Windows(R) technology. < 1279927739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, if you want something sinister: perhaps they're trying to invent a new sort of Trusted Computing chip < 1279927745 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and want something cheap and TC to base it on, like ARM < 1279927752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, RAM? what does memory have to do with it? < 1279927769 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1279927770 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARM. < 1279927770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, more likely < 1279927772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah < 1279927785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1279927787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1279927789 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone know how to extract an applet from a webpage? < 1279927798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, easy. view source < 1279927806 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're trying very hard to get that Windows Phone 7 thing running; and, well, phones == ARM. < 1279927809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then fetch the .class/.jar < 1279927814 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: referring to yourself is not a problem if it's only _structural_ recursion, but i don't know agda so i don't know if it's restricted to that < 1279927816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: that seems to be the leading theory atm < 1279927818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and other stuff < 1279927824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like any parameters < 1279927825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1279927827 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ahh, so the .jar i downloaded probably wasnt the thing to download, rather the class was < 1279927839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, uh, I can't imagine there are both < 1279927842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the .jar likely contains .class files < 1279927847 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, one is an archive < 1279927847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what ais523 said < 1279927851 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1279927852 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1279927856 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it is < 1279927859 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all dependently-typed languages are < 1279927860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.jar is just .zip witha particular structure < 1279927861 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ... < 1279927866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, you still need to include the parameters in the applet tag < 1279927871 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1279927875 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use a web page to view it < 1279927878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be a local one < 1279927886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but afaik you can't run an applet stand-alone < 1279927891 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: basically we (theoretically) treat the recursive call as actually sugar around an induction scheme < 1279927893 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you almost can < 1279927893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :needs to be in a web page. < 1279927895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. structural recursion scheme < 1279927897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, appletviewer sure < 1279927903 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, you can give it a main function < 1279927904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you still need a web page for it < 1279927911 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just creates a window and adds the applet to it < 1279927913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, only if you have access to the source < 1279927914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC that's standard for applets < 1279927923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1279927927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: agreed, but many people put that in while they have access to the source < 1279927936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1279927940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, in theory you could have an applet with an entirely unrelated main() < 1279927946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1279927949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it might be unwise to actually do that, as you'd be running untrusted code unsandboxed < 1279927958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is the applet start function < 1279927961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it isn't main() < 1279927966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember offhand < 1279927971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :applets are incredibly deprecated < 1279927978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? < 1279927979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the extent that ##java nowadays refuses to discuss them < 1279927984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all JNLP nowadays < 1279927989 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woo < 1279927989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, JNLP being? < 1279927994 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster! <3 < 1279928003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Java Web Start (JNLP is the protocol it uses) < 1279928006 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You subclass Applet or some other class, and it constructs an instance of it; there's no static "main fucntion". < 1279928008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wrong nick < 1279928019 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what now < 1279928020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, OK < 1279928022 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: misping < 1279928033 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mr ping < 1279928041 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's basically a way to run arbitrary Java programs sandboxed, directly from a web browser < 1279928044 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i was mainly mentioning this for the benefit of phantom_hoover, so it's a little bad to discuss it after he timed out... < 1279928050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Miss Ping is Mr. Ping now. < 1279928057 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh well i don't care about people < 1279928065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not inside the browser though, must be noted. < 1279928076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also [...] shit. < 1279928111 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: GOTCHA < 1279928121 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I agree, I have difficulty understanding the idea behind Java Web Start < 1279928127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it strikes me as being rather awful < 1279928129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: is that a secret now? :-) < 1279928230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my main issue with JNLP is it solves an issue that most people don't really care about, whilst not fitting the niche that applets filled < 1279928238 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it would be fine for something like Rubicon < 1279928290 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which incidentally no longer works on my laptop) < 1279928317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For a swing-based applet, you subclass javax.swing.JApplet (there's a corresponding plain-AWT class too), provide a no-arg constructor and then override public void init() to start the stuff. < 1279928416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And at least this applet's init() uses SwingUtilities.invokeAndWait() to do the actual GUI construction.) < 1279928494 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1279928653 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you swing that way < 1279928692 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1279928728 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand that it's somehow somewhat sinful to use static classes to store stuff. But what about to perform stuff, with no state? < 1279928758 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: stateless static methods are fine < 1279928765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, for instance, System.arraycopy < 1279928771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whose only sin is that it's in System rather than Arrays < 1279928788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's a Java example; sorry, I'm a little language-confused atm) < 1279928802 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, what, exactly, is sinful about stateful static classes? < 1279928814 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants to fix this codebase eventually
< 1279928828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: "not re-entrant" is the normal criticism, but that's rather technical < 1279928840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same thing what's sinful with plain old global variables? < 1279928849 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is that you basically need to know too much about the context to be able to use them safel < 1279928851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*safely < 1279928869 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so you end up breaking encapsulation rather badly out of necessity < 1279928944 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :safely? < 1279928972 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: try calling a static method that uses global state from two threads at once < 1279928976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'll see what I mean < 1279928989 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1279928991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't need threading to cause that sort of thing to explode, but it makes it a lot more obvious < 1279928992 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1279928995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : although, it would be fine for something like Rubicon < 1279928997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is that < 1279929002 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1279929003 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a refreshing alternative viewpoint; context: dcraw faq explaining why it's an app, not a library: "Library code is ugly because it cannot use global variables. Libraries are more difficult to modify, build, install, and test than standalone programs, and so are inappropriate for file formats that change every day." < 1279929006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia claims it is the name of a river < 1279929010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is < 1279929014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also the name of a computer game < 1279929017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :based on RUBE, the esolang < 1279929019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah that RUBE one < 1279929021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1279929027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't it work any longer for you? < 1279929031 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is a single-threaded application. What single-threaded stuff can cause it to explode? < 1279929033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :applet fails to load < 1279929041 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no more detail given than that < 1279929052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1279929091 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1279929106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Sgeo: "not re-entrant" is the normal criticism, but that's rather technical <-- how is that rather technical? < 1279929116 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was wondering if there's an esolang optimized for easy hardware implementation ;f < 1279929121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sure it is. But not more so than programming in general < 1279929123 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the meaning of the word "re-entrant" < 1279929133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes that is quite common in programming < 1279929138 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the correct way to handle things where a global state might be useful? < 1279929145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: there's http://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX which is designed to have a short impl in x86 asm < 1279929146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, several man pages mentions it here in section 3 mostly < 1279929149 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it better to design around avoiding global state? [Probably that] < 1279929149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few other esolangs along similar lines < 1279929162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: generally, you use local state instead < 1279929171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :work out what needs the state, and what doesn't < 1279929181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing really needs state < 1279929185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do CPS < 1279929186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, you might want to associate the state with an individaul user < 1279929211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there are lots of languages that does without state just fine! < 1279929240 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant: easy to implement as a chip, like using FPGA < 1279929244 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There once lived a family of old, old wasps. These wasps, every day, would clamour for a chance to see the Queen Wasp -- like a queen bee, but more a figurehead than a head of state, you see -- and the rest of the time they fantasised about seeing the Queen Wasp. One day they all got killed in a very boring way, and Bjorn knew nothing of this as he passed through the forest in which they didn't live. < 1279929280 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION confuses
< 1279929355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they normally have state in a sense < 1279929363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's only an argument being passed to every function < 1279929391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes < 1279929392 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Often Bjorn would stop and gaze up at the immense trees; or down at the bugs on the floor. Sometimes he squished the bugs while looking at the trees, or the trees while looking at the bugs. He felt considerably more sorrow for the trees. Eventually, a bird flew overhead and the strain of trying not to squish three things at once was too much for Bjorn; he fell over, and ended up squishing some bugs by lying on them, and felling a tree because of the vibrati < 1279929393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on caused; this then caused the bird to crash-land in confusion and it died shortly after. < 1279929427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, stop going insane < 1279929434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1279929472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, I'm currently trying to redesign the interface of NetHack < 1279929476 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: alise: any suggestions? < 1279929479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, also that Björn must have been quite heavy < 1279929481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bjorn eventually exited the forest and entered another forest right after it. In fact, most people would probably say it was the same forest, but Bjorn had a very precise, unusual definition of "forest" which meant "the one meter squared ratio around any given tree". < 1279929490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do it in feather < 1279929499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Bjorn, not Björn. His parents weren't so clued up on the Swedish alphabet, or indeed Swedish at all. < 1279929505 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think you're confused as to what a user interface is < 1279929514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: make it ajax 2.0! < 1279929518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, but Bjorn is just a typo for Björn or Bjørn < 1279929526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, in terms of what key does what < 1279929533 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Tell that to his parents. < 1279929535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: or Bjarn? < 1279929536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, Björn = Bear btw < 1279929542 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, Bjorn isn't a bear. He's Bjorn. < 1279929547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not Swedish. Perhaps some other language < 1279929564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes but Björn is also a name in Swedish < 1279929570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can be named Bear < 1279929578 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bjorn is what Bjorn is called and that's that. < 1279929597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bjärn < 1279929597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, configurable key bindings