< 1280275204 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO MORE BURMA SHAVE says him. < 1280275213 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Thank you forever. < 1280275224 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I notice a question mark in there < 1280275245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, why must our country die, I see < 1280275248 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: How did you do "must the of it"? :P < 1280275262 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must, did, whatever < 1280275268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sees only question marks, of course
< 1280275270 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: "The needing of" < 1280275280 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: XD < 1280275316 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you translate it as affadavit or affidavit? :P < 1280275339 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Affidavit is what I transcribed. < 1280275354 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU'RE FIRED < 1280275372 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it make you feel better to know that that was inherently a neologism? < 1280275376 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I SAID AFFADAVIT. FANCY YOURSELF A POET? SHEESH! < 1280275388 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're FIRED FIRED FIRED. < 1280275392 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: XD < 1280275417 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afufidawitu < 1280275428 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, one of the closures can stay. < 1280275443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: BUT THE OTHER ONE IS DEAD MEAT < 1280275444 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was more "Afidebitto". < 1280275445 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Now a true translator would make "must the of it" and "affadavit" rhyme. Somehow. < 1280275461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Japanese poetry doesn't rhyme. < 1280275466 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"have the of it" almost does it < 1280275472 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wrong about the nesting level < 1280275479 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There a closure in a closure, that's it < 1280275482 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Innovation! < 1280275484 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those closures are dead. < 1280275491 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though: "Hitsuyou no/afidebitto" almost does. < 1280275505 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It rhymes in English; not Japanese. < 1280275506 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afufidawitu? < 1280275506 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders why Casey & Andy made him depressed.
< 1280275512 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you for real? < 1280275530 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders who the smeg Casey & Andy are and why they've been mentioned three times in here today
< 1280275531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan you suck at japanification of words. < 1280275539 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, my name is Afidebitto Kuaku. < 1280275548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: i'm just imitating what pikhq uses to do :D < 1280275562 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Poorly as hell. :P < 1280275572 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: webcomic mad scientists < 1280275573 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Whooooshu~ < 1280275583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: "Ahuxit`eh`ixtuto". :) < 1280275585 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoooshu kung fu < 1280275595 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: stop it, noone here speaks maltese. < 1280275596 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"eh" < 1280275610 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: oh i forgot the x thing < 1280275643 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: ty but that answers only the first half of my wonderment < 1280275661 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: How else to encode small vs. large kana? < 1280275677 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: font size < 1280275684 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: *shudder* < 1280275686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well the previous time i saw it was a joke about norwegians afaict < 1280275688 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Or case? < 1280275689 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imma go walk around outside for a bit < 1280275695 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Great idea or GREATEST IDEA? < 1280275706 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: BOLD. < 1280275733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if it was Phantom_Hoover each time, presumably he's been reading the archive < 1280275739 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the x prefix or suffix? < 1280275739 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: ahuit`eh`ituto? < 1280275746 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Prefix. < 1280275753 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: +c channel < 1280275760 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darnit. < 1280275771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ahu*i*t`eh`i*tu*to*? < 1280275773 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1280275779 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I burnt through it in under a day, and now there's a HOLE where my soul should be. < 1280275786 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps I should sleep. < 1280275788 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'Night. < 1280275825 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: go lie on the couch and dream of being king of sweden < 1280275848 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahu”it’eh’i”tuto < 1280275864 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made it worse pikhq. < 1280275871 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahah. < 1280275940 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahu-it—eh—i-Tito < 1280275944 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tuto < 1280275971 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... For the dakuten?!? < 1280275980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which, BTW, looks like ﾞ) < 1280276002 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahu’it„eh„i’tuto < 1280276010 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: That'll learn ya. < 1280276011 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes. Any questions? < 1280276021 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Now what say you about the handakuten? < 1280276024 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ﾟ < 1280276034 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lessee. Example word... < 1280276059 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Superscript that ho. < 1280276064 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :六百, roxtuh^ixyaku. < 1280276072 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Hepburn, that's "roppyaku". < 1280276073 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280276094 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :handakuten are so handy < 1280276102 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ro.tuh'i.yaku < 1280276116 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ro'tuh.i'yaku < 1280276116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1280276125 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :handakuten => handy :) < 1280276130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: More like half-y. "han" is "half". < 1280276157 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dy is the other half < 1280276167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION runs
< 1280276195 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, han-dakuten? I thought you were talking about hand-akuten < 1280276219 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, the hand-evil-mark? < 1280276227 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280276242 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("aku" is evil and "ten" is mark) < 1280276251 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: your hearing is not quite acute, i take < 1280276267 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a grave accusation < 1280276289 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night. < 1280276333 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does dakuten mean btw pikhq? < 1280276345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :olsner: hey i mentioned nothing about your being undead < 1280276350 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1280276382 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Voiced marked. < 1280276385 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, mark. < 1280276388 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks. < 1280276401 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1280276405 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1280277340 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@nat-wireless-guest-reg-158-122.bu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280277738 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manually testing everything is fun! < 1280277783 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never testing anything is fun! < 1280277841 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But enjoying the fruits of your labor is also testing < 1280277859 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you saying the most fun to be had is when you write code that you never see do anything? < 1280278063 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codu.org/projects/ suggests so. < 1280278131 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Three projects called "My Project" < 1280278259 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two aren't mine and one is too stupid to deserve a name. < 1280278265 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be an xkcd reference < 1280278388 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All < 1280278390 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1280278414 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how inclusive of you < 1280278454 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1280278912 0 :calamari!~jeffryj@32.97.110.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280278927 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1280278991 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1280279034 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re: hackiki... I had a bot that allowed access to a root shell .. channel users kept destroying it for no reason, saying it was not useful for anything else < 1280279109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, HackEgo... < 1280279110 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I imagine your hackiki might suffer a similar fate due to immaturity.. don't waste your time :) < 1280279123 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`who < 1280279125 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1280279129 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1280279141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo $USER < 1280279143 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1280279150 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo Any outpiut? < 1280279152 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls < 1280279152 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any outpiut? < 1280279152 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo Hello? < 1280279154 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :babies \ bin \ cube2.base64 \ cube2.jpg \ hack_gregor \ hello.txt \ help.txt \ huh \ netcat-0.7.1 \ netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz \ out.txt \ paste \ poetry.txt \ quotes \ qw.pl \ share \ tmpdir.20778 \ wunderbar_emporium < 1280279165 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello? < 1280279165 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_> < 1280279167 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run `whoami` < 1280279168 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1280279174 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run whoami < 1280279176 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1280279179 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat babies < 1280279180 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1280279181 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo `whoami` < 1280279184 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1280279187 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bibble < 1280279190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo `ls` < 1280279191 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls babies < 1280279191 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :babies bin cube2.base64 cube2.jpg hack_gregor hello.txt help.txt huh netcat-0.7.1 netcat-0.7.1.tar.gz out.txt paste poetry.txt quotes qw.pl share tmpdir.21044 wunderbar_emporium < 1280279193 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :babies.db < 1280279211 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, so clearly, can't demonstrate it. < 1280279213 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But. < 1280279218 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: HackEgo is root. < 1280279224 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run echo `who` < 1280279226 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1280279229 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bibble < 1280279243 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls / < 1280279244 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, and? < 1280279245 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr < 1280279249 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ls /home < 1280279251 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hackbot < 1280279280 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, are you saying the people on #esoteric have grown up? or was it more of a way that people were disrespecting me? < 1280279303 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it was rather lame < 1280279334 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'run rm -rf / < 1280279352 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Hackiki is designed to be recoverable < 1280279357 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so was mine < 1280279373 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recovered it like 10 times then gave up due to the idiocy of people < 1280279390 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they kept saying they had to hack it.. but they were already root so it was completely stupid < 1280279394 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: More just that they're idiots. :P < 1280279410 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they wanted to break it out of its jail < 1280279415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hack your system < 1280279474 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlikely.. it was running inside a qemu vm < 1280279483 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did they know that? < 1280279492 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1280279502 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they knew they were root < 1280279523 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe they knew of some weird qemu exploit < 1280279539 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they said something like that it wasn't useful because they could just run things on their own machine and the only use for my bot was to find clever ways of hacking it < 1280279580 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to review my logs < 1280280358 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1280280404 0 :calamari!~kidsquid@206.29.188.187 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280281206 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280281410 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E4864.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280281750 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280281884 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-218-168.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1280282327 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1280282334 0 :calamari!~calamari@ip70-162-184-205.ph.ph.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280282858 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is a befunge script restricted to 80x25 commands? < 1280282861 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/08.04.19 < 1280282870 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is there a restriction at all? < 1280282925 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derdon: Befunge-98 is not restricted < 1280282948 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the main culprit was ehird < 1280282951 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1280282961 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: oh. I thought befunge-93 was the latest version (I clicked on the links in the wikipedia rticle) < 1280282980 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh no, that's the _oldest_ < 1280282985 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1280283006 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only those two are used any nowadays, anyway < 1280283009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280283019 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280283031 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1280283047 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey isn't on or we'd yell at 'im for you :P < 1280283056 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BOTOH, 80x25 is very much for an esoteric language :D < 1280283090 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, 80x25 is the "standard" unix terminal size < 1280283122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it was probably intended to be displayed visually in a terminal window < 1280283163 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: 270x71 <- this is my terminal size < 1280283167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or on a literal terminal, i remember those) < 1280283211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derdon: this was back in '93, remember? i think our university still had standard size physical vt terminals by then < 1280283212 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I'm gonna learn 93 cuz it looks easier to understand < 1280283238 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also much easier to implement. < 1280283243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: no respect for '98, eh? < 1280283243 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i think it costs money < 1280283255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, fungot, i'm pretty sure it doesn't < 1280283255 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: if you want. i was more angry than any of these return true its true? < 1280283348 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: maybe < 1280283349 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: should be less vague. how would i go about telling my wife that i'm secretly shagging the plumber?' sense, but not good. < 1280283363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TMI < 1280283375 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1280283375 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1280283448 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay.. so here is a challenge: given 2 buttons, what is an easily memorable way to enter the digits 0-9, requiring 3 or less button presses, but also handling additional button presses in a way that the user can understand? < 1280283494 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm you realize 3 presses of 2 buttons gives you only 8 options? < 1280283505 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it gives 15 < 1280283527 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :build a binary tree and with up to 3 presses you'll have 15 states < 1280283532 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, that's enough for 2^4-1. < 1280283547 0 :Aquana!~azi@unaffiliated/aquana JOIN :#esoteric < 1280283561 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that part of the challenge isn't really a challenge :) < 1280283562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um but then you'll need a timeout for knowing if the user's finished < 1280283590 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan there is another button for that, but that isn't really important to the challenge < 1280283620 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly, I have been trying to figure out something that makes sense from memory < 1280283647 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also that doesn't degenerate if you push the buttons too many times < 1280283648 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ [1..3] >>= flip replicateM "ab" < 1280283651 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :["a","b","aa","ab","ba","bb","aaa","aab","aba","abb","baa","bab","bba","bbb"] < 1280283686 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah started off with that.. not exactly easy to remember how to enter a digit < 1280283792 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can drop the ones with 2, actually < 1280283808 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah you could < 1280283842 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would mean a waste of presses.. could use simple binary if # presses weren't a concern < 1280283867 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1280283868 0 :Halph!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1280283872 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1280283876 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1280283881 0 :Halph!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :coppro < 1280283906 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, with simultaneously pressing both considered different from pressing one then the other, you could have lots more state space. < 1280283921 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting idea < 1280283949 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd essentially mean I had 3 buttons < 1280283950 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since 3*3 = 9, you only need two presses that way, with every value being two presses. < 1280283957 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1280283958 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, forgot 0 < 1280283960 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn < 1280283965 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 is easy < 1280283974 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just have that be the default if you don't press anything < 1280283979 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to enter the number n, enter n times the first button and then the second < 1280284008 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aquana: You missed the first part, namely the restriction to "3 or less button presses" < 1280284020 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1280284030 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of, who are you? :P < 1280284047 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its me, aquana! < 1280284051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could also do binary, but with initial zeroes omitted < 1280284053 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, of course! < 1280284057 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How could I be so silly. < 1280284067 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1280284076 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how would I enter 8 or 9? < 1280284083 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be missing the point < 1280284092 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1280284098 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drop the first 1, too < 1280284101 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize there was a point :P < 1280284118 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: not much of one, I admit :) < 1280284134 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this _does_ leave 0 a special case, though < 1280284151 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I once again point to the /topic for your voting plezzure kthx < 1280284158 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey I like that < 1280284191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 could be 111, paradoxically < 1280284223 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(000 is already taken for 8) < 1280284242 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 would be 111, right? < 1280284247 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, 11 < 1280284271 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I need to go back through and follow your instructions more closely < 1280284281 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :111, , 0, 1, 00, 01, 10, 11, 000, 001 < 1280284286 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remove all the leading 0s and the first 1. That is the entire instruction :P < 1280284293 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(yeah that's no buttons for 1) < 1280284314 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, THAT'S confusing X-D < 1280284329 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if more than one number is to be entered, does it need to know when a number ends and when an other one starts? < 1280284333 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheesh, critics < 1280284333 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I get 111 < 1280284345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: i said 0 needed to be a special case < 1280284350 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1280284352 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's no first 1 to remove < 1280284377 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah 0 and 1 would be identical < 1280284441 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well still, I think it's a cool solution, thanks < 1280284447 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're welcome < 1280284593 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and whats about pressing both buttons at the same time? < 1280284674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i didn't use that < 1280284700 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would require ternary, which i suspect doesn't come as easily to many :D < 1280284726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and then there could be initial 1 _or_ 2, hm < 1280284741 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm trying to decide how to handle extra button presses.. lets say they entered 0000, what digit does that produce? < 1280284800 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm actually nm.. I was thinking it was ambiguous, but it isn't < 1280284815 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discarding digits is easy. 010 and 011 may be more of a problem. < 1280284838 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and 100, 101, 110 < 1280284840 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say do some huffman coding and include the possibility of having both buttons pressed at the same time < 1280284849 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0000 -> 10000 = 16, 16 mod 10 = 6 < 1280284866 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1280284914 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you can enter multiple numbers without having an "next number"-button < 1280284955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well pushing both could _be_ end of number < 1280284995 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a possibility to comment my befunge-scripts? :P < 1280285028 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derdon: would that really help? :) < 1280285039 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: yes < 1280285047 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derdon: great script < 1280285058 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aquana: which one? < 1280285065 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, if you kept the comments separate, you could just enter arbitrary chars, right? < 1280285065 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all < 1280285083 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't see those, but hey its a comment :p < 1280285104 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :calamari: what do you mean? creating a seperate file which explains this script? < 1280285144 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, 1 min I need to make sure I don't butcher befunge < 1280285185 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1280285199 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :derdon: just put the comments somewhere the IP won't touch them < 1280285212 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: good < 1280285213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any character is allowed as long as it isn't executed < 1280285225 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I assume IP == Interpreter < 1280285233 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay.. so let's say you have code going left to right.. and you have a v then put your comment after that.. shouldn't get there < 1280285240 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instruction pointer, actually < 1280285253 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1280285279 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyhow.. yeah if it won't be reached you are safe < 1280285297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1280285297 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1280285301 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what I said badly with "keep your comments separate" < 1280285327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's befunge 98, but same principle < 1280285366 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from wikipedia: "Similarly, in Befunge, there is no comment syntax: to embed documentation in the code, the programmer simply routes the control flow around the "comment" area, so that the text in that area is never executed." < 1280285367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course with 93 the problem could be fitting both the comments and the code into the space available < 1280286207 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the more I look at your solution the more awesome it becomes.. it actually turns out that a simple 10-state machine can handle it < 1280286238 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm right < 1280286248 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I drew it out as a binary tree < 1280286303 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i don't see how the 0=111 fits < 1280286324 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question was, say, when I encountered a digit lower in the tree, would it have the same leaves as one higher up, and it does < 1280286336 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah 0 should be 010 < 1280286355 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280286380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so initial state = 1, reading digit d turns state s into 2*s+d (mod 10) < 1280286390 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280286480 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the states are (digit-0-1): 001, 123, 245, 367, 489, 501, 623, 745, 867, 989 < 1280286669 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what you said :) < 1280287060 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Monad; digs = [0..3] >>= replicateM [0,1]; main = print [(s, (length . nub . sort . map (foldl' (\s d -> (2*s + d) `mod` 10) s)) digs) | s <- [0..9]] < 1280287076 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Monad; import Data.List; digs = [0..3] >>= replicateM [0,1]; main = print [(s, (length . nub . sort . map (foldl' (\s d -> (2*s + d) `mod` 10) s)) digs) | s <- [0..9]] < 1280287097 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell import Control.Monad; import Data.List; digs = [0..3] >>= flip replicateM [0,1]; main = print [(s, (length . nub . sort . map (foldl' (\s d -> (2*s + d) `mod` 10) s)) digs) | s <- [0..9]] < 1280287100 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[(0,8),(1,10),(2,10),(3,10),(4,8),(5,8),(6,10),(7,10),(8,10),(9,8)] < 1280287155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only initial states 1,2,3,6,7,8 gives all possible digits as output < 1280287163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*give < 1280287238 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure I follow < 1280287273 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I start in state 0, all I have to do is give 1, then I'm in state 1 < 1280287276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you start with state 0, say (which is the equivalent of not removing the first 1), then you only get 8 possible digits represented < 1280287282 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with 3 presses < 1280287289 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1280287313 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1280287369 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rest are a bit more subtle but i _think_ it boils down to state 0 and 9 having digits turning them into themselves, so you don't want those states to be reached early or you lose too many options < 1280287398 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(4 and 5 can turn into 9 and 0 respectively) < 1280287408 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are no dead ends though, so it is fine < 1280287437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but getting all in 3 presses depends on getting enough branching < 1280287468 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well basically if I am entering a digit and I mess up then I've forfeited my 3 presses, but I still want to be able to enter it < 1280287485 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since that is possible, I'm happy < 1280287489 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280287507 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so now to code it up :) < 1280287532 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shall I call it oerjanary? < 1280287540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1280287579 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just kidding < 1280287628 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll be using this to implement digit entry for my watch calculator program < 1280287674 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unfortunately the timex data link usb doesn't have a keypad < 1280287698 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does have a crown, but the crown gets jumpy with age < 1280287726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so crowns are a royal pain? < 1280287736 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1280288071 0 :Aquana!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Aquana < 1280288096 0 :BRETTs!~bretts@adsl-75-54-91-77.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280288398 0 :BRETTs!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280289059 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: I am leaving. You are about to explode. < 1280289728 0 :BRETTs!~bretts@adsl-75-54-91-77.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280289734 0 :BRETTs!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1280290628 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1280291492 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280293680 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul ((/)~*(\)*S)(~:(a~a(:^)**)~a*^^):^ < 1280293681 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/((/)~*(\)*S)(~:(a~a(:^)**)~a*^^):^\ < 1280293818 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (((/)~*(\)*S)(~(:^^)*~^)):^^ < 1280293818 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/((/)~*(\)*S)(~(:^^)*~^):^^\ < 1280293854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (((/)~*(\)*S)(~a(:^^)*~^)):^^ < 1280293854 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/(((/)~*(\)*S)(~a(:^^)*~^)):^^\ < 1280294155 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@173-128-168-179.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280295767 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1280296017 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1280297861 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... I'm considering defining floating point extension to Pointer B. < 1280298073 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And define it in way that's relatively sane w.r.t. numbers, but almost impossible to implement completely. < 1280298115 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1280298191 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since it would have (subsets of) functions that are well defined, but would be ph.d just to implement properly... :-) < 1280298365 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Already operations like "complex double precision floating point divide" would be quite fun (note that defintion of "double precision" is not the same as "IEEE double precision". It could easily be IEEE quadruple precision)... < 1280298392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :listZeroes(riemannZeta, range=(RealPart > 1/2)) < 1280298426 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :None known? :-) < 1280298427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go. >:) < 1280298491 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One wouldn't need more than extensions of several known special functions to complex domain to be very hard to implement. < 1280298559 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the way reference implemnentation chooses word size, "single precision" would be "IEEE double precision". < 1280298603 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reference implementation has 64 bit words (giving 1Zib data memory). < 1280298623 0 :myndzi!myndzi@c-24-19-39-178.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280298634 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: IIRC it's been proven there are no zeroes with Re(w) > 1/2 < 1280298741 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely not < 1280298778 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1280298781 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Re(w) > 1 for sure < 1280298799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Directly from the functional equation one sees that the non-trivial zeros are symmetric about the axis Re(s) = 1/2." < 1280298815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hrm < 1280298848 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Number of possible different code memory words in Pointer B: 1 112 030. < 1280298883 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you can prove there are none with Re(w) > 1/2 you will be quite rich and very famous < 1280298891 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280298940 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or dead < 1280298946 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was the point of the above, anyway < 1280298988 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a friend of a friend put it best... if you prove the Riemann hypothesis, you either tell everybody or nobody < 1280299003 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...i am not aware of anything regarding the riemann hypothesis that would cause the death of people... < 1280299013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now P = NP, on the other hand... < 1280299088 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless someone wants to steal your proof of the riemann hypothesis and take credit, perhaps. < 1280299139 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: any solution would likely have profound implications on public-key encryptoin < 1280299141 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*encryption < 1280299163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...again, i think you are confusing it with P=NP < 1280299207 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I could have the quote out of context, but the Riemann hypothesis would have similar implications < 1280299213 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least in so far that most people assume the riemann hypothesis is true, anyway, so _proving_ it won't change much. same with proving P != NP. < 1280299261 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the profound implications of proving them in that direction would only be to make people know what they already mostly assume < 1280299274 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so wouldn't break anything < 1280299292 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd need to dig up a reference on this one, but IIRC it's expected that the methodology would make finding primes very easy < 1280299295 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proving P!=NP would just make everyone go "*whew*!" < 1280299302 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: aye < 1280299319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280299326 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280299363 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: public key encryption doesn't depend on primes being hard to find. in fact they're already quite easy enough. < 1280299384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's _factoring_ that's the key. < 1280299471 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if DBus makes any sense on Windows
< 1280299473 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's already primality check that runs in deterministic polynomial time. < 1280299531 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's only hard to find very *large* primes. And this is only hard in the sense of practicality. < 1280299551 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could certainly produce some gigabyte primes; it'd just be a waste of time. < 1280299644 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other amusing overkill: 2048-bit EC curves. < 1280299697 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION detects RAS syndrome
< 1280299711 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAS? < 1280299721 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redundant acronym syndrome < 1280299726 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1280299785 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the very large primes are nearly all mersenne primes, since those are the ones that we have an efficient method to test at that size < 1280299796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*known primes < 1280299853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, very large *known primes, I assume < 1280299854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(2^p-1) < 1280299876 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: *cough* < 1280299883 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1280299885 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1280299892 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION managed to fail to see that
< 1280299909 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Figure out class of numbers with even easier (nontrivial) primality check. :-) < 1280299962 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something with ackermann functions in it would be great < 1280300035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, an infinite class with entirely trivial check would be even better < 1280300073 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or hyper operators (extra bonus for getting them to nest)... < 1280300115 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, numbers involving terms with three conway arrows... :-) < 1280300141 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Bye < 1280300143 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(those terms are usually freaking huge). < 1280300163 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i guess a problem is that primes _do_ get rarer. at mersenne prime sizes the numbers still can be prime purely by chance, but with ackermanns involved you'd need some cosmic luck < 1280300196 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 -> 3 -> 65 -> 2 is bigger than Graham's number... :-) < 1280300245 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if it is known whether adding or subtracting a small constant to those can or cannot be a prime < 1280300291 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, if you have number with n digits, the number you have to add or substract to make it prime is IIRC O(n). < 1280300327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know. that's not really helpful with hyper operators. < 1280300433 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And even if you got some prime, proving it to be prime would likely be freakishly hard. < 1280300478 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subtracting 1 is even, subtracting 2 is divisible by 5. < 1280300507 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ends in 7? < 1280300523 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham's_number#Rightmost_decimal_digits_of_Graham.27s_number < 1280300529 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, yes... < 1280300539 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280300564 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The size of prime gap Graham's number is in is likely immense. < 1280300644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah if other bases destroy other constant adjustments similarly... < 1280300658 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale averted in Cowbirds in Love < 1280300690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: *gasp* < 1280300711 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Immense meaning you can't even write class number for that number. < 1280300723 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :May I spoil up to where we are in this storyline? < 1280300731 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :class number? < 1280300783 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 => 1-6, 1 => 7-10^6, 2 => 10^6-10^10^6, 3 => 10^10^6+1 - 10^10^10^6, and so on... < 1280300804 0 :calamari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1280300888 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternatively one could define that number is immense if one can't write polylog of it. < 1280300919 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's essentially the size of n in the 3^^n < 1280301064 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So finding prime number with Ackermans in it would likely mean finding explicit expression for infinite sequence of primes.... < 1280301072 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280301272 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Searching some stuff I hit page claiming that any prime contains one of the following primes as subsequence: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 19, 41, 61, 89, 409, 449, 499, 881, 991, 6469, 6949, 9001, 9049, 9649, 9949, 60649, 666649, 946669, 60000049, 66000049 or 66600049. < 1280301281 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*at least one of < 1280301343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it must end in 1,3,7 or 9 unless it is 2 < 1280301364 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess it's just a matter of prolonging that argument < 1280301419 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah 21, 31, 51, 71 are of course included < 1280301483 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then it's 01, 11, 41, 61, 81, 91, 09, 19, 49, 69, 89, 99 < 1280301511 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course one can have multiple: 194101 has 19 and 41 as subsequences. < 1280301549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am just assuming we are looking at subsequences of ending subsequences < 1280301579 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Subsequences don't have to be of adjacent digits. < 1280301597 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, not? < 1280301611 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. 401 is prime. < 1280301620 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1280301628 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :401 => 41. < 1280301657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should be even easier then < 1280301842 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :01, 81, 91, 09, 49, 69, 99 < 1280301858 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And in base-2 I think similar set would be 10 and 11. Since 2 is the only prime with only one 1 in its binary form. < 1280301874 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1280301995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so naturally everything not of the form {0,8,9}+1|{0,4,6,9}+9 is now taken care of < 1280302036 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1280302063 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(by just the primes < 100 in that list) < 1280302100 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The page also claimed that for any language, one can only have finite set of words where no word is subsequence of other words in set. < 1280302140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that reminds me of a graph theorem < 1280302196 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, "A neat consequence of this result is that, given any language L, the set of all subsequences of strings in L is regular. We can't always easily determine the regular expression or automaton for L, but we know it exists.". < 1280302432 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertson%E2%80%93Seymour_theorem i think it was < 1280302755 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: i suspect that your sequence above applies to every odd number as well < 1280302760 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1280302769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sufficiently large < 1280302780 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously 1 and 9 are excluded < 1280302891 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there also context free grammar that describes language {0,1}* iff Goldbach conjuncture is true? < 1280302958 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know < 1280303110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, hm, i recall determining whether a context free grammar gives all strings in the alphabet is undecidable. so quite probably. < 1280303251 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, that problem is co-RE-complete. < 1280303409 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, there are also infinite number of undecidable problems of diffrent difficulty... < 1280303467 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The last class of those being RE-complete. < 1280303505 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1280303524 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy#Relation_to_Turing_machines < 1280303600 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280303610 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280303999 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1280304000 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1280304247 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wtfs at Boycott Chrome stuff
< 1280304279 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :privacy issues? < 1280304314 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Good night < 1280304470 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello bsmntbombdood < 1280304476 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we have not spoken in quite a while < 1280304495 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1280304499 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoever you are < 1280304535 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bsmntbombdood: we talked in the programming channel before. A long time ago we got into fights, and then things cooled off < 1280304538 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1280304545 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was your old nick? < 1280304548 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as it is now < 1280304553 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i remember talking about lambda abstractions < 1280304556 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1280304557 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1280304574 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe parametric polymorphism < 1280304577 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and maybe lisp < 1280304690 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waves
< 1280304708 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i vaguely remember < 1280304772 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi pikhq, are you still in colorado? < 1280304873 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not ATM. < 1280304900 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to manually work out the answer to SMBC's math question < 1280304908 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I just realized it's easier than it looks < 1280304943 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No way I'd solve it without some sort of writing thingy though < 1280305453 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want to check my math? < 1280305454 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://codepad.org/r3pth1N3 < 1280305470 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My attempted answer for http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1952 [NSFWish] < 1280305607 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it take longer than 30 seconds? < 1280305626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( yes < 1280305673 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I certainly would have said the first thing I noticed [It's not actually an integral like x^2 sin x] in less than that < 1280305679 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe she'd be lenient? < 1280305761 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am watching some smbc theater < 1280305819 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hilarious < 1280305823 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "other thingy" is most likely phi. (And you didn't say p = rho, but I guess that's obvious.) ((Don't have time to actually look at the math now.)) < 1280305843 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't realize that that was a greek letter < 1280305848 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was actually p < 1280305941 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the radial coordinate in the (ρ, θ, φ) polar coordinates, so it has to be either ρ or r. < 1280305972 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh < 1280305973 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or whatever the 3D variant of polar coordinates are called. Spherical coordinates? < 1280305983 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The thingy was more of an O and I combined < 1280305994 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no, that's what I called theta < 1280305997 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly mistakenly < 1280306012 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION isn't so good with his greek letters
< 1280306019 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I know pi! < 1280306028 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And uppercase sigma! < 1280306029 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phi is written both as φ and as ϕ. < 1280306044 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what I called theta is really phi, then < 1280306058 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Theta's the one that goes horizontally slashed. < 1280306077 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the "other thingy" is theta, then < 1280306110 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curiously enough, The Standard -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_31-11#Coordinate_systems -- says it's (ρ, φ, z) for cylindrical coords and (r, θ, φ) for spherical; I don't quite see why ρ → r there, since they do reuse φ. < 1280306114 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lunchtime now! < 1280306337 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it isn't even for the same parameter. < 1280306398 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION failed to see it in terms of standard formulas
< 1280306584 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should sleep now < 1280308331 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1280309564 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280309574 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280310267 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-4-111.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280312584 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280313172 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280313815 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a limit to how big an array on the stack can be in C? < 1280315257 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Depends on process stack limit. < 1280315272 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thought so... < 1280315287 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: On Linux, the default seems to be 8MiB for entiere stack. < 1280315541 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style. < 1280315815 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, I just looked at Conservapedia's article on Enccyclop�dia Dramatica. < 1280315821 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/cc/c/ < 1280315923 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems to say that ED is a paragon of modern satire... < 1280316043 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Conservapedia... One more proof of that there are hardcore lunatics out there... < 1280316149 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's gone downhill for the last year or so, though. < 1280316165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There aren't enough sane people being persecuted to make it worth watching. < 1280316224 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone: Anything what Poe's law appies to is stupid. < 1280316364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There may be a size limit for an array in general, no matter whether it's on the stack or elsewhere; C99 guarantees that objects of size up to 65535 bytes are okay, but more than that might not. < 1280316415 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Outside "embedded" environments, are you likely to run into that limit? < 1280316448 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-bit DOS in some memory models? I guess that's pretty obsolete nowadays too. < 1280316475 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, all memory models except "huge". < 1280316505 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :16-bit DOS memory models: tiny, small, compact, medium, large and huge. < 1280316541 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h94.60.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280316560 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tiny is incedentially memory model of .com executables. < 1280316621 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nowadays memory model used is "flat". < 1280316678 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is incidentially essentially 32 (or 64) bit version of tiny model. < 1280316828 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague recollection that at least Visual C 6 compiled Windows executables with (reasonably) tiny stacks; at least I've seen the "why doesn't my array work?" "make it a global or malloc it instead" exchange many times, even for not-so-huge arrays. < 1280316873 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The default stack reservation size used by the linker is 1 MB." (random MSDN Google-hit, not sure about context) < 1280316895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Megabyte's perhaps not tiny, but still small-ish. < 1280317054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and that 65535-byte guarantee is only for hosted systems, so you can have a C99-compliant freestanding implementation that has even smaller objects. < 1280317130 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And a final bit of trivia; C89/C90 has a similar phrase, but there the limit is 32767 bytes.) < 1280317301 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general a lot of limits seem to have been just approximately doubled in the decade. #include nesting depth from 8 to 15, nested parentheses in a full expression from 32 to 63, significant characters in internal identifiers from 31 to 63, etc. (There's several more cases of *4 too.) < 1280317365 0 :yiyus!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280317496 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, flat doesn't use segments, though. < 1280317570 0 :yiyus!~124271242@67.202.106.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280317602 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither did tiny. < 1280317784 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh. < 1280318157 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tiny: Code and data (and stack) in the same 64k space. < 1280318587 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It "uses" segments in the sense that there is one segment, and all the segment regs are initialized with it. < 1280318754 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that's as much segment-using that the flat memory model, though. < 1280318824 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Flat memory model has CS and DS initialized to different values on x86 (since one can't load CS with data segment nor write to code segment). < 1280318851 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's true; so it uses even more segments, in fact. < 1280319052 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280319111 0 :sftp_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1280319220 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, LSL? < 1280319544 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Leisure Suit Larry? Linden Scripting Language? Logical Shift Left? < 1280319735 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E6069.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280319839 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second < 1280319851 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You should have guessed < 1280319858 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why mention that? < 1280319871 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I sort-of did. I didn't quite grasp what the question there was, though. < 1280319872 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :64k memory total for a script and all .. data < 1280319885 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Used to be 16k < 1280320097 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280320127 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Why? < 1280320144 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants to write a VM, but can't think of a good excuse.
< 1280320161 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason for the change? They switched to Mono < 1280320171 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although there is still support for the old VM < 1280320206 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The built-in delays in LSL are also a nice touch. < 1280320231 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h121.5.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280320286 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there anyone advocating LSL for non-second-life general-purpose programming? Or any language reimplementations available? < 1280320357 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are reimplementations, but those are just so that there are nice external editors < 1280320366 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, OpenSim < 1280320384 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't think any sane person would advocate LSL for non-SL programming < 1280320415 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you seen how it deals with events? < 1280320440 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or its utter lack of multidimensional lists? < 1280320483 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but I can guess. < 1280320509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's also no shortage for non-sane persons.) < 1280320548 0 :Warrigal!~Warrigal@rrcs-70-63-156-144.midsouth.biz.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280320622 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280320670 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280320749 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the people here have made a "music to make machine learning to" Spotify playlist. I'm not quite sure what any of the contents have to do with machine learning, but... < 1280320822 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280320870 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1280321063 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, might be good for that orphaned machine learning project I have. < 1280321269 0 :sftp!~sftp@79.174.35.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280321316 0 :sftp_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280321364 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, I make no claims that any of this music is good for anything, and the selection is pretty... eclectic (to put a positive spin on it), but http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ml.png < 1280321402 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do any of them concisely describe the backpropagation of error algorithm? < 1280321416 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe if you play them backwards. < 1280321458 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that just gave you Stanic messages. < 1280321492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's heavy metal songs backwards, isn't it? < 1280321509 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't quote me on this, however, I'm no expert. < 1280321582 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naw, that's Satan. < 1280321592 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get messages from Stan from other stuff. < 1280321597 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there's black metal which gives satanic messages when played forward... < 1280321606 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1280321624 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what you get when you play those backwards? < 1280321642 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280321646 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Jesus is cool. Jesus is cool"? < 1280321736 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Machinae Supremacy's Spotify biography page describes them as "SiD metal"; since all other sorts of "metal" seems to have backwards messages, I'm sure it's got something too. < 1280323132 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.... < 1280323145 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I almost wrote (user!=null)?true:false < 1280323162 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1280323173 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1280323226 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least you didn't write (userIsNull!=false)?true:false. < 1280323253 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My older brother used to write Delphi code saying "if someBool = true . . .". It was mildly annoying. < 1280323280 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comparing bools to true can be dangerous, especially in langs like C where multiple values mean "true" < 1280323285 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comparing to false is normally safe but silly < 1280323312 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION notes that IWC's San Dimas time is running weirdly.
< 1280323312 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is C# < 1280323321 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not particularly dangerous to compare with true < 1280323332 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1280323356 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Time exploded several strips ago, but no-one except the Deaths and the Mythbusters seem to have noticed. < 1280323528 0 :oklopol!~oklopol@a91-153-122-35.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1280323602 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm too tired to program < 1280323619 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking "I need to add this function. If I don't add this function, this won't work" < 1280323624 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never added the function < 1280323628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it worked? < 1280323631 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it didn't? < 1280323694 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't < 1280323741 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I also never added the code that was supposed to call it, so it compiled < 1280323966 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, laziness can hurt < 1280324002 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A while ago, I decided that I wanted this 2-dimensional list to be 1-indexed, so I put a null at all coords where one was 0 < 1280324016 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, when writing the new code, I forgot < 1280324195 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, you're in the States, right? < 1280324205 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1280324466 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was awake when I should have been sleeping < 1280324536 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which time-zone? < 1280324580 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eastern < 1280324878 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION vaguely wants to kill VS2010
< 1280324967 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's GMT-5, isn't it? < 1280324981 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's what, 9AM? < 1280325006 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to sleep for approx. 0 seconds this past night < 1280325319 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What were you doing that was so important? < 1280325369 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading < 1280325374 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1280325576 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading what? < 1280325608 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random stuff < 1280325611 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit about Vala < 1280325624 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, not a book. < 1280325628 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION can be a bit of an Internet addict sometimes
< 1280325644 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION decides to reenable the midnight cutoff
< 1280325680 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better, hardcode it so you can't remove it. < 1280325858 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why Vala, by the way? < 1280325881 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got the notion in my head that it's a great language for writing applications < 1280325893 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's compiled in a non-managed environment and isn't C++ < 1280326074 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do you want to write applications? < 1280326145 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...good question < 1280326219 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, unless you're actually being paid for it? < 1280326358 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders how many paid Vala jobs there are
< 1280326363 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably close to none < 1280326735 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1280326739 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, passed :) < 1280326891 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, so you're writing applications for *pleasure*? < 1280326903 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, why not? < 1280326906 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hypothetically < 1280326924 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because! It's the principle! < 1280327148 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's designed to be *useful*! < 1280328443 0 :sftp_!~sftp@79.174.50.208 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280328484 0 :sftp!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1280328843 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl29-2-0-cust326.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280329055 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280330588 0 :boily!~boily@poste205-171.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1280330681 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280331088 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280331114 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280331202 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280331355 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants the image maps that they have in Square Root of Minus Garfield.
< 1280331361 0 :Phantom_Hoover_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Phantom_Hoover < 1280331405 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1280331454 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280331679 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@nat-wireless-guest-reg-158-122.bu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280331817 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! cpressey! Mathnerd314! < 1280331914 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover! < 1280331977 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i refuse to bend to your mind-altering powers < 1280332132 0 :MizardX!~MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1280332162 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1280332195 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads log
< 1280332236 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1280332243 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Phantom_Hoover_ wants the image maps that they have in Square Root of Minus Garfield. < 1280332248 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E6069.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280332250 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, was my math decent? < 1280332257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe look in the discussion forum? < 1280332362 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone else got the answer I got :D < 1280332597 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1280332673 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Random copyright thought: if you can have a number that represents a copyrighted work, you can violate copyright with it. < 1280332695 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also find a map between any two arbitrary pieces of data. < 1280332708 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hence, all numbers are a copyvio. < 1280332730 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite. < 1280332790 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now, where's my nearest court... < 1280332869 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a Goedel encoding of the Mona Lisa right here. But I guess that's in the public domain. Or the Louvre. < 1280332948 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True, but you can easily make a function that maps, say, 3 to the Harry Potter series. < 1280332952 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: may i ask you a math question in pm < 1280332962 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm trying a new thing < 1280332971 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Private maths! < 1280332971 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the new thing is i ask before i ask < 1280332979 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ask to ask < 1280333002 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't let us know what kind of sick calculations you're doing! < 1280333008 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it's a personal math question, somehow, I for one wouldn't mind it being in the channel. < 1280333013 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a disturbing change. has Phantom_Hoover's mind control got to you too? < 1280333023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure i could but i wouldn't like it if a random person knew the answer right away < 1280333035 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*MWAHAHAHA* < 1280333041 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fair nuff < 1280333047 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can *two-directional* AFA's be more powerful than DFA's < 1280333053 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's my question < 1280333056 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's an AFA < 1280333102 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two-directional DFA's are easily seen to be the same as DFA's, and AFA's i know are the same as DFA's (in power i mean), but i don't know the proof of the latter (well maybe i do but i haven't given it thought) so i don't know what happens when you have both < 1280333105 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternation < 1280333110 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :universal states < 1280333116 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and existential states < 1280333138 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1280333165 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason is if two-directional AFA's give you the regular languages, then i think i solved an open problem < 1280333181 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the answer is very simple so i think the assumption that 2dAFA = DFA must be wrong < 1280333181 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i cannot say i've heard the problem before. < 1280333196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i knew the thing about 2-directional DFAs though) < 1280333213 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's an AFA? < 1280333219 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't actually know it but it's sort of trivial, just remember what happens if you go left < 1280333226 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can keep that info inductively < 1280333234 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the Association of Flight Attendants. < 1280333235 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gets harder with alternation (maybe, maybe not) < 1280333259 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well an AFA is < 1280333262 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know DFA's? < 1280333264 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would a two-directional AFA give you the regular languages? Maybe I don't appreciate what "two-directional" means here. < 1280333272 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it can just go left too < 1280333283 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the question is not why it wouldn't give them, but why it does < 1280333283 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: k, thx < 1280333312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well - | start by making conservative assumptions < 1280333313 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just ATM without memory < 1280333325 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/|/I/ ... not sure how *that* happenned < 1280333384 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know that alternating polynomial = PSPACE, that's the essence of quantified boolean formula being PSPACE-complete < 1280333424 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well sure < 1280333462 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280333519 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280333523 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are fun results linking FSA and complexity theory, but i can't start listing now because i have to eat icecream < 1280333531 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me if you solve it < 1280333564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A basic theorem tells that any AFA is equivalent to an non-deterministic finite automaton (NFA) by performing a similar kind of powerset construction as it is used for the transformation of an NFA to a deterministic finite automaton (DFA)." < 1280333590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds fairly simple, NFAs are the case just using existentials... < 1280333596 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.springerlink.com/content/y10575485h1uu2u6/ < 1280333600 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't log in, but... < 1280333614 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does sound as if multihead or 2dir AFAs are more powerful than DFAs. < 1280333681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the languages accepted by two-way alternating multihead finite automata are exactly the same languages accepted by determinstic Turing machines in polynomial time". < 1280333759 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm multihead means it can read at several locations simultaneously, no? that's not obviously the same power. < 1280333792 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agreed. I was wondering how you could reduce that to single-headed. < 1280333798 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact that obviously allows it to check the (^n)^n language < 1280333837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't seem obvious with 1 head < 1280333843 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, did I ever mention that I hate you for the dead links to CET? < 1280333853 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Which ones? < 1280333872 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ones to catseye.webhop.something < 1280333875 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :central european time is dead, just deal with it < 1280333911 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Hating me will get them fixed, clearly < 1280333929 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes! < 1280334073 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What the heck is a "nite automaton"? OH... probably google munging the word "finite" in its PS viewer < 1280334112 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vala's ownership stuff gives me a headache < 1280334323 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Good luck on proving AFAs can accept (or not) regular languages -- it sounds like it might be an open problem in and of itself. < 1280334333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFA being? < 1280334347 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFA is an acronym for "Read The Log" < 1280334390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, I've been reading the entire conversation and I'm still unsure as to what an AFA is < 1280334404 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I know the expansion of the acronym now < 1280334415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not what the actual automaton architecture is < 1280334420 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best description for me was "Like an ATM but without memory" < 1280334430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I was unable to find the expansion of the acronym < 1280334446 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's what logs are for < 1280334460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how long do I need to go back? < 1280334461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ATM? Async Transfer Mode? Automated Transaction Machine? < 1280334469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A Turing Machine? < 1280334473 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_Turing_machine < 1280334478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280334553 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when I wished oklopol good luck, I meant to say "2-way AFAs". Plain AFAs can't, they're equivalent to DFAs. < 1280334628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found in logs that the first A stands for Alternating, but now what the FA stands for. I guess it is Finite Automaton or such though < 1280334755 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. As it does in DFA and NFA. < 1280334758 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280334784 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280334799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh! < 1280334835 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: a 2-way single-head AFA can _also_ obviously check (^n)^n < 1280334855 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Proof that AFAs equal DFAs in power: Convert AFA to NFA (the existential choices are universal choices over a universe of one possibility only.) Then convert the NFA to a DFA through the usual means. QED. < 1280334865 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Do elaborate! < 1280334912 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1280334921 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brain fart < 1280334942 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this that old joke about "Wait, *is* that obvious...? <> Yes, it's obvious." < 1280334961 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, it's no longer obvious < 1280335006 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oblivion for the obvious. < 1280335149 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's "obvious" that it can't check (^n)^n, but I can't explain how. But I think a lot of things are "obvious" in that way. If I could explain why rigorously, I'd be famous and rich. < 1280335180 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the whole TCness of Xigxag/Dupdog? < 1280335188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or more probable non-TCness? < 1280335188 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god, what? < 1280335202 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I was going to say, non-TCness of Xigxag :) < 1280335205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, both languages feel obviously non-TC, but it's hard to prove < 1280335213 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Had not heard of Dupdog before. < 1280335214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'd love for Xigxag to be TC < 1280335220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it was basically just a joke < 1280335227 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's rather xigxag-like, though, yet more complex < 1280335240 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also has a tendency to blow up into very long programs with only small bits changing < 1280335245 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice HW program. < 1280335272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: not really, the HW program assumes that characters are interpreted mod 257 < 1280335277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I see no real justification for such an assumption < 1280335292 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh poo. < 1280335295 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh well. < 1280335308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it may still be possible mod 256, just a lot harder < 1280335397 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Later < 1280335654 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep wanting to apply information theory to these problems. I just read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_information_theory . It didn't help. < 1280335798 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multihead is always more powerful than nonmultihead, essentially < 1280335854 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can almost never reduce it to single-headed, and for deterministic machines we know DFA with k+1 heads can do languages DFA's with k heads can't < 1280335900 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can prove this with a straightforward diagonalization for k+2 and k by simply accepting the language of all k-head machines that don't accept themselves, you need k heads for simulating the automaton and 2 for bookkeeping < 1280335930 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heads (after the first one) act as a kind of storage, so that makes sense. < 1280335955 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oklopol: Good luck on proving AFAs can accept (or not) regular languages -- it sounds like it might be an open problem in and of itself." <<< well two-way, and why do you say it might be open? < 1280335983 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1280336034 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" brain fart" <<< yes, at least the "obvious" part < 1280336038 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i' < 1280336056 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'ve been thinking about that exact example for quite a while, seems obvious you *can't* do it tho < 1280336072 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes, I missed two way. I saw one paper that suggested the "simplest" models that have been proved >DFA so far are multiheaded. < 1280336103 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280336104 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't see anything about 2way AFAs, either way. Not conclusive of course < 1280336177 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1280336178 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a DFA with two heads is already "trivially" stronger than one with just one head < 1280336186 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trivially if you know where to look < 1280336197 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe it's trivially no matter what < 1280336247 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for markers (these little stones you can move around the tape) i don't even know if 1-marker is stronger than 0-marker, because i haven't read the article about k+1 heads > k heads so it might be a special case < 1280336270 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't really see what you could do with just one marker < 1280336284 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone should totally come out with an automata theory-themed board game. < 1280336345 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1280336363 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that work? i would love it in any case < 1280336454 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno -- I mean a lot of board games can probably be reduced to automata of some form... < 1280336540 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did wonder once if you could make a game out of NTMs -- one player tries to choose transitions that will make the machine accept, the other tries to choose transitions that will make it reject < 1280336584 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect there is a lot of opportunity for stalemate there though < 1280336671 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: What are you sinking about? < 1280336919 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1280336965 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280336993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, NTM? Not Turing Machines? < 1280337007 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nondeterministic Turing Machines < 1280337009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280337099 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1280337229 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Snakes and ladders is really just a kind of probabilistic FA -- there is no state except where your token is. The accept state is at the end of the board. (It would be more interesting if the snakes and ladders could move and/or if you had a hand of cards to play instead of rolling dice.) < 1280337292 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1280337323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, if those could move, wouldn't it be like a self modifying FA? < 1280337369 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Correction: Proof that AFAs equal DFAs in power: Convert AFA to NFA (the universal choices are existential choices over a universe of one possibility only -- just like you'd convert a DFA to an NFA.) Then convert the NFA to a DFA through the usual means. QED. < 1280337390 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It would. < 1280337406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, wikipedia claims "As a result, the game can be represented as a state absorbing Markov chain." about that game < 1280337416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea how < 1280337621 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess they're thinking of the history of dice rolls as the data in the chain < 1280337655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280338398 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280338430 0 :Gregor-W!836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280338629 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@nat-wireless-guest-reg-158-122.bu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280338693 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280338703 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that very few board games have unbounded storage. < 1280338715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D&D is an exception, but it's not really a board game, of course. < 1280338720 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1280338734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm I think one of my drive is starting to fail. Under warranty and part of a RAID 1 array so no worry really. < 1280338741 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Pictionary??? :D < 1280338760 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also not really a board game, but closer < 1280338803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/aGDZ < 1280338805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can't be good < 1280339033 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1280339248 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@92.233.174.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280339422 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" I did wonder once if you could make a game out of NTMs -- one player tries to choose transitions that will make the machine accept, the other tries to choose transitions that will make it reject" <<< NTM's are additive in the sense that you can't add anything and make them accept less stuff < 1280339441 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, not *exactly* NTMs < 1280339460 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Multiple transitions out of a state, but which one is taken, is chosen by the plater < 1280339462 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*player < 1280339474 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*platter < 1280339490 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a DJTM < 1280339494 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*platypus < 1280339511 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*rubber ducky < 1280339519 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Correction: Proof that AFAs e..." <<< i don't get this at all, can you give me a link < 1280339545 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: No link, I just made it up? It seems like a really easy proof < 1280339566 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well to me it seems like nonsense < 1280339568 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/?/./ bad use of ? < 1280339576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know what a universal state is < 1280339583 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280339587 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All paths out of it have to accept, right? < 1280339603 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait you did a powerset thing? < 1280339604 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And existential is, at least one path out has to accept < 1280339617 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah those are correct < 1280339671 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you take the powerset then yeah actually i guess it's trivial, let me think about it < 1280339680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*i guess it might be trivial < 1280339718 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, putting a powerset in there would make what I was saying explicit, I think < 1280339762 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your state is some set S, that means all those states must accept, nondeterministic steps work normally, just take the cartesian product of guesses, universal steps, well, what you said < 1280339779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the crucial thing is to realize what being in a set of states means < 1280339784 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i guess it's obvious < 1280339825 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not obvious, then at least.... non-problematic < 1280339843 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so umm does that give us two-way AFA's... < 1280339858 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1280339863 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1280339873 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, um < 1280339883 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The input is finite? < 1280339888 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would it, i don't even see how 2-way NFA is the same as 2-way DFA < 1280339890 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1280339894 0 :Mathnerd314!~mathnerd3@nat-wireless-guest-reg-153-53.bu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280339902 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that doesn't really matter < 1280339905 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then a two-way automaton on the string maps to a one-way automaton on a tree < 1280339920 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever < 1280339923 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1280339923 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there is work on AFAs on trees (and graphs) -- I've seen it < 1280339929 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1280339973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but one-way automata on trees don't translate to two-way automata on strings < 1280339982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what we need < 1280339988 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1280339989 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mrh, true. < 1280340014 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway, is 2-way NFA the same as 2-way DFA?!? < 1280340023 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't i know something this simple < 1280340244 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same in terms of CC? < 1280340256 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes < 1280340260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's a DJTM <-- DJTM standing for? < 1280340272 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: riffing on *platter < 1280340278 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn! < 1280340278 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :states are powersets + for all states, information about what happens if you go, from the cell where you are, left in that state, and we can just inductively carry this info with us < 1280340289 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I wanted that pun! < 1280340335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ? < 1280340357 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OK, next time I'll let *you* confuse AnMaster. < 1280340372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION googles riffing
< 1280340392 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the automaton goes left, for all states S in the powerstate, it does whatever it does when going left from states S, if one accepts it accepts, if it goes right it changes S as with the usual powerset construction, and for all states it checks what they do if going left, using the info about what they do when going left from the cell to the left < 1280340404 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, playing with, basically < 1280340404 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :many details need to be filled, but i don't see why this wouldn't work < 1280340409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, oh DJTM as in DJ TM? < 1280340441 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: It seems reasonable < 1280340443 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for AFA, the automaton can start building a huge boolean function combining the results of going left < 1280340459 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if these two accept and this doesn't, then do this, if on the other hand..." < 1280340465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The state blowup is immense, of course, but irrelevant, of course < 1280340482 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's only exponential still, because you just need one piece of info for each state in addition to the powerset! < 1280340488 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1280340491 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only exponential :P < 1280340530 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe 2-way AFA is actually stronger, i'll try to come up with a counterexample tomorrow < 1280340532 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1280340540 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :counterexample to it being just regulars < 1280340547 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err no wait < 1280340563 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can build any boolean function of going-left's, but the inputs are just states... < 1280340576 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so actually i think by having another exponential blow-up, you can do it < 1280340667 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll give this a bit of thought < 1280340746 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still thinking about how the C preprocessor might be Turing-complete... < 1280340915 0 :augur!~augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280340922 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't pikhq post a link to a Game of Life interpreter or something thereabouts in it? < 1280340929 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that proof that it is, not just might be? < 1280340972 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: yes, but the life playfield in that was finite. < 1280340984 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh < 1280340984 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shoot < 1280341015 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should try with something more fitting, like the lambda calculus. < 1280341079 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking about how you could do a cyclic tag system... the hard part is extracting the tip of the string (or whatever you're using to represent the state) < 1280341108 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The rest, namely checking what the tip is, and appending the response to the other end of the string, seems easy. < 1280341134 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, I don't really know, since I'm not a huge cpp jockey. < 1280341163 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@ADijon-152-1-25-180.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1280341165 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In spite of being a string-rewriting language, I don't think CPP would be great for that ... < 1280341508 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pity there's no string indexing in there at all. < 1280341587 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My bet is still on Lambda. < 1280341600 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 2AFA -> 2NFA: you have the usual powerset constr, and for each state s you store all the sets of states S (not containing s) such that there is an accepting run from s going left if there's an accepting run from all states in S. now on each move, go through states s, if s goes left then guess one of its S-sets to replace it, and repeat this until all states go right or you loop (you just hardcode all this), then when you go right < 1280341605 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QED < 1280341612 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn that was formal < 1280341657 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how you used the word "hardcode" in a proof < 1280341691 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That puts me in a good mood as I go for lunch :) < 1280341746 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1280341756 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah wanted to remind the reader we're not talking about an algorithm the AFA has to somehow implement < 1280342256 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds hardcore to me. ... bitches. < 1280342324 0 :myndzi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1280342637 0 :sshc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280342952 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1280343187 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Operation timed out < 1280343441 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h65.0.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280343637 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And 2NFA -> NFA -> DFA, if I'm not mistaken. I can see "why" more clearly now, but I don't have a proof. The number of "paths back" is always bounded by a function of the size of the transition table. If you get into multiheaded things, the bound depends on the size of table *and* the size of input, so you get into LBA and P territory. < 1280344035 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if the number of "paths back" is bounded that way, you can always do the powerset thing to the states. < 1280344067 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@nat-wireless-guest-reg-158-122.bu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280344106 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1280344119 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1280344352 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It can be shown that the Kolmogorov complexity of any string cannot be more than a few bytes larger than the length of the string itself." Interesting use of the word "byte"... < 1280344470 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280344671 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1280344694 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeaaaah ... that should really be something more like "a small, fixed amount" .... but then again since it varies by your description language, bleh. < 1280345018 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280345075 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1280345264 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There *has* to be a way to prove P < NP out of this :) < 1280346054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" And 2NFA -> NFA -> DFA, if I'm not mistaken." <<< i reduced directly to NFA < 1280346074 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't see how to reduce to 2NFA < 1280346100 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" so 2AFA -> 2NFA: you have [...]" < 1280346106 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, so that you somehow do a simpler reduction < 1280346113 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit < 1280346123 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1280346132 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NFA \subset 2NFA, but i definitely meant NFA < 1280346168 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, NFA < 2NFA? Damn, my intuition was wrong then. < 1280346184 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :umm a two-way NFA can just never go left < 1280346196 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1280346234 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant that NFA's are subset of 2NFA in the very concrete sense that for each NFA there's the exact same 2NFA < 1280346238 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*A < 1280346239 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a < 1280346242 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ok. Whew < 1280346256 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The structure is a subset. Yeah. < 1280346266 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, "structure"... you know what I mean < 1280346269 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AXX will always be stronger than NXX because you can just not use universals < 1280346405 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" There *has* to be a way to prove P < NP out of this :)" <<< from what, kolmo? < 1280346419 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Yes! I'm not entirely serious though. < 1280346453 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :P < NP is serious business though, i hear < 1280346491 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a million-dollar industry, at least. < 1280346502 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that makes it sound like such small potatoes :) < 1280346592 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last I checked, new potatoes (which are small) were a sizable industry. :P < 1280346615 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NxN sudokus are NP-complete, aren't they? < 1280346875 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly in NP (assuming a reasonable # of givens I suppose), but I don't see how you could show it NP-complete offhand. < 1280346946 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@nat-wireless-guest-reg-158-122.bu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280346982 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, I vaguely remember it from the Scientific American. < 1280346983 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wikipedia article on Sudoku is in the category "NP-complete problems", but mentions nothing about it on the page. Yay Wikipedia < 1280347044 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280347046 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h60.5.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280347048 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1280347051 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's mildly misleading to say "Sudoku is NP-complete". There is an NP-complete problem related to Sudoku: given a partially completed grid, determine whether it has a solution. But this is a problem that faces the setter, rather than the solver. " < 1280347061 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I just found that page too. < 1280347126 0 :impomatic!~chatzilla@87.113.80.245.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280347759 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same thing with minesweeper < 1280347769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual game hasn't been proven np-complete < 1280347781 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just whether a set of shown numbers is consistent < 1280347783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1280348400 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh < 1280348418 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Co-NP = NP? < 1280348501 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should think so. < 1280348532 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Co-NP means that for a problem X, �X is NP, doesn't it? < 1280348574 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does "?X" in "?X is NP" mean? < 1280348696 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means your client sucks < 1280348709 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get a client that understands UTF-8 < 1280348729 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does! I can read pikhq's Japanese stuff just fine! Well, mostly. < 1280348771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :読める？ < 1280348774 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :良いね。 < 1280348833 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly. Anyway, let's assume ?X means "complement of X". Then yes. But that doesn't mean NP = Co-NP. < 1280348841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: If his client sucked it'd be multiple characters. < 1280348849 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280348853 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then get a better font < 1280348857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You need a font with the glyph. < 1280348857 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Usually it's a box with 4 digits in it... < 1280348884 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fallback font not working, I guess? < 1280348904 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it, it is not ¬X < 1280348916 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... It is. < 1280348981 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe Phantom_Hoover is not actually sending UTF-8, but something that your clients understand and can turn into ¬, but Pigeon can't? < 1280349011 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what XChat is up to. < 1280349031 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. irssi *should* be just treating this as UTF-8. < 1280349130 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irssi's default settings have a fallback for invalid UTF-8, unless I misremember. < 1280349141 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. < 1280349144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/set recode_fallback and so on. < 1280349158 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems to be CP1252 here, possibly for the benefit of Windows people. < 1280349163 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It meants your IRC client sucks. < 1280349196 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :����? < 1280349226 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was two consecutive "not"s followed by two consecutive sterling signs. < 1280349226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, XChat's default I think is also character set "IRC (latin/Unicode hybrid)" < 1280349238 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that is not UTF-8 < 1280349247 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solution: get a client that uses UTF-8 < 1280349255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Send UTF-8. < 1280349296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess XChat's "hybrid" might mean "Use latin1 by default, except UTF-8 if the input text contains something that can't be represented as latin1", and both not and the sterling sign are in there. < 1280349324 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, ¬¬№№. < 1280349329 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can toggle it to plain "UTF-8 (Unicode)" in the network setup screen thing. < 1280349334 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, XChat is maintaining the brain-damage that is CP1252? < 1280349339 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is UTF-8 < 1280349343 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Is not Latin1. < 1280349355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's not latin1? < 1280349361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: CP1252 is a superset of Latin1. < 1280349375 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. But both those characters he sent are in latin1. < 1280349381 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mmm. < 1280349538 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :���� < 1280349543 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does that work? < 1280349551 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1280349567 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1280349611 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this wins the award for "worst code I've ever seen in ##C++", and that's saying somehting: http://pastebin.com/V3jWjXtg < 1280349639 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looked like 0xac 0xac 0xa3 0xa3 in my logs; that'd be either latin1 or the windowsy thing. < 1280349675 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even I'm not that unlazy enough. < 1280349706 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(XChat's network settings probably won't take effect before reconnecting with the edited configuration.) < 1280349710 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How... bought in do you have to be to "Work harder, not smarter" to even think of that < 1280349712 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, it's the superset construction applied to a C++ program! < 1280349723 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*powerset < 1280349732 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: That's... stunningly stupid. < 1280349778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That "one-case switch" pattern is also pretty nice. < 1280349779 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Does Co-NP = NP?" <<< if P = NP then yes, if P != NP then i don't know if that implies co-np and np are different as well < 1280349779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARRAYS MAN, ARRAYS! < 1280349859 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kinda impressive how it doesn't have... Any abstraction at all. < 1280349869 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Co-NP means that for a problem X, �X is NP, doesn't it?" <<< yes it's just the set theoretic complements of sets in NP, although it's also characterized by tm's that have universal states (just universal ones, no existential ones) < 1280349896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: God, I feel the urge to write a similar program just so I stop crying. < 1280349898 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's actually a C program < 1280349898 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: On the other hand, it allows spreading your air craft carrier squares all over the map. You can't do that in inferior battleship implementations. < 1280349904 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm surprised he's still in ##C < 1280349917 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, "air craft carier". < 1280349918 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: XD < 1280349920 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have expected them to have kickbanned him by now < 1280349928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and "poition". < 1280349935 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how does co-NP not imply NP? < 1280349957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Demands Curses. < 1280349995 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: how does it? < 1280349998 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely a problem and its complement can each be deduced from the other? < 1280350013 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deduced, sure. REduced... no < 1280350022 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... a GUI. < 1280350023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gasp!) < 1280350029 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, humankind just doesn't know how. < 1280350030 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man, this guy's an idiot < 1280350036 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish he was just a troll < 1280350039 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's clear he is not < 1280350054 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me‽ < 1280350057 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1280350059 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guy in ##C++ < 1280350073 0 :tombom_!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1280350079 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, an appropriate interrobang. < 1280350093 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? What's he doing? < 1280350095 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And my IRC client rendered it correctly, too. Sweet! < 1280350116 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I made a quick trawl of the XChat docs. < 1280350117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: a nondeterministic TM makes guesses, and accepts if one guess works; you can't solve the complement problem because you need to check that *not one* of the choices works < 1280350123 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and nondeterminism doesn't let you do that < 1280350141 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, OK. < 1280350164 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But surely you can solve �X by solving X and inverting the answer? < 1280350182 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, but that won't be an algorithm a NTM can run < 1280350194 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will have to call an NTM program from a TM < 1280350198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then invert its answer < 1280350237 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact P^NP is complementable for this reason (polynomial time with oracle that does nondeterministic polynomial queries in one step) < 1280350285 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: he's smarter than you because he's in college. < 1280350291 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, you can call it from a nondeterministic program and then invert the answer < 1280350332 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may all be a bit confusing still, you should just read the formal definitions reeeally well. < 1280350382 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should, shouldn't I? < 1280350406 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should! < 1280350478 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Compare: boolean satisfiability (is there an assignment of varibles that makes this statement true) to tautology (do *all* assignments of variables make this statement true) < 1280350487 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sat is in NP, but taut is in co-NP < 1280350497 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohh. < 1280350515 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that an answer to? < 1280350543 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpresssey's thing, kind of. < 1280350585 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also that other way to define NP: the decision problems for which you can verify the proof for a "yes" answer in polynomial time with a deterministic TM; and for co-NP, the same but verifiable proofs for the "no" answers. Though perhaps I shouldn't be trying to add to the confusion any more. < 1280350613 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing wrong with adding to confusing < 1280350615 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*confusion < 1280350616 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language L is in NP iff there is a nondeterministic turing machine that accepts exactly the words in L, and always runs in polynomial time. a nondeterministic turing machine is a turing machine that can have multiple next steps from each configuration, and it accepts iff there is one sequence of guesses that leads to acceptance < 1280350688 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complete guess: SAT with monotonic sentences (no NOT) is in P. Maybe even a greedy algorithm < 1280350730 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monotonic sentences? < 1280350744 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is monotonic the word? AND and OR, but no NOT < 1280350745 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what do you mean complete guess < 1280350762 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I have no proof, going entirely on intuition and similar sounding problems < 1280350767 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay monotonic is a good words < 1280350769 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*word < 1280350783 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh complete guess as in info from ass < 1280350791 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"monotonic circuits" come up sometimes in circuit complexity < 1280350793 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So anybody written an interpreter in CPP yet? :P < 1280350793 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought complete as in np complete ... < 1280350805 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, info from ass :) < 1280350846 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my ass tells me it's in P < 1280350867 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1280350873 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assign all variables to true < 1280350886 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can prove by induction that this algorithm eventually finds the answer < 1280350911 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could call it a greedy algorithm < 1280350963 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe every set of boolean functions is either trivial or np-complete < 1280351054 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe that's trivial if you know your boolean algebras, what kinds of stuff can a set of functions generate if it doesn't generate all boolean functions < 1280351101 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also what does trivial or NP-complete even mean < 1280351114 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that there's a linear time algo? < 1280351117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows. < 1280351198 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if every 3-head NFA M can be replaced by a k-head DFA for some k that depends on M, then the nondeterministic context-sensitive languages are the same as deterministic context-sensitive languages < 1280351562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, isn't NP-complete pretty well defined < 1280351568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlike the concept "trivial" < 1280351615 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivial means I can't be bothered doing it, yes? < 1280351620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280351801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. (4) fiddling, footling, lilliputian, little, niggling, piddling, piffling, petty, picayune, trivial -- ((informal) small and of little importance; "a fiddling sum of money"; "a footling gesture"; "our worries are lilliputian compared with those of countries that are at war"; "a little (or small) matter"; "a dispute over niggling details"; "limited to petty enterprises"; "piffling efforts"; "giving a police officer a free meal may be against the law, but it s < 1280351801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eems to be a picayune infraction") < 1280351809 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lots of them words. < 1280351943 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, "trivial or NP-complete" is only informal because "trivial" is. < 1280351966 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case trivial couldn't really mean "I can't be bothered doing it" < 1280351976 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would be the algorithm that does it < 1280352185 0 :MigoMipo!5fd104c6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.209.4.198 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280352626 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION holds a preemptive memorial for Phantom_Hoover
< 1280352655 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For looking through that code? < 1280352670 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have better things to do, but they're not as immediately interesting. < 1280352741 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: So "I can't be bothered doing an algorithm to do it" for trivial, then? < 1280353006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280354093 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot < 1280354093 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: you don't really need more ram please donate! cool < 1280354097 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!simpleacro < 1280354108 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FAGFTFK < 1280354111 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1280354126 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :short for: fag foot fuck? < 1280354157 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though, fags don't really have feet. They're mostly for getting cancer and/or burning witches(?) < 1280354268 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!simpleacro < 1280354270 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: something like that < 1280354271 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QCWAMNZZ < 1280354277 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, and for eating. < 1280354283 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!simpleacro < 1280354285 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PZGXVHK < 1280354297 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No vowels! < 1280354386 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually in acronym-space < 1280354392 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vowels do not correspond to more possible words < 1280354428 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most words begin with consonants, but only certain ones. Feel free to hack the source of simpleacro to add weighting. oerjan made a weighting algorithm but didn't produce a full list of weighted words < 1280354446 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er letter < 1280354448 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1280354459 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quebecois Communists Wantonly Attack My Not-Zero'd Zabutons < 1280354471 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zabutons? < 1280354508 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whaddayaknow, it's a type of cushion. < 1280354515 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not-Zero'd Zomplexes. < 1280354517 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: When sitting in seiza (kneeling before a table), one sits upon a zabuton. < 1280354539 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, teehee. < 1280354553 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think my complex subset names were awesome. < 1280354576 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pied Zen Geek Xmas Viewed Hong Kong < 1280354657 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: BTW, it's a 'sitting futon'. < 1280354660 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were doing any kind of intelligent mathematics in school this year I'd bring them up. < 1280354747 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...you guys know way too many obscure words. < 1280354782 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know I was thinking of taking the challenge of writing a poem-friendly programming language < 1280354783 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vala can be so... < 1280354787 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not quite sure how to go about it. < 1280354799 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I'll learn something about it that's great, sometimes something that's horrible < 1280354818 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could try to give meaning to syllables, but that might constrain your poem. Basically I need to find an acceptable set of constraints for a given input, that would make writing poetry fun. < 1280354824 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, I made those set names up. *coughaskmewhattheyare* < 1280354825 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Wondering if I should bother looking at it < 1280354874 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think basing instructions off of starting letter would be an acceptable constraint. < 1280354879 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I rarely get past "looking at it" for most "alternative mainstream" languages < 1280354893 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another possibility is to have a number of different selection mechanisms... that you can set with pragmas at the top of the poem. < 1280354920 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the constraint is dependent on the kind of poem you want to write. Could be syllable-based, rhyme-based, letter-based, word-length-based, etc < 1280354928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's the good old Shakespeare for that. < 1280354930 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Tracking measure (syllables) would be appropriate, but hard < 1280354941 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed. you'd need a dictionary < 1280354945 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a very comprehensive one < 1280354965 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or cheat by insisting it be notated < 1280354984 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rhyme could be done via database. bug would be possible though, so any kind of interpreter should have good debuggin output. Like showing what rhymes with what, etc. < 1280354992 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case the database doesn't match something it technically should. < 1280354994 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vala has no bounds checking < 1280355001 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm, automatic bound checking, I guess < 1280355020 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How worketh that? < 1280355057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Mora-based? < 1280355062 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :frederik> Sgeo_: use an ArrayList < 1280355064 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Okay, so Shakespeare is play- and not poem-oriented.) < 1280355069 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't know what Mora is. < 1280355082 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.rhymezone.com/rhyme-help.html -- you could use this as a web service to find rhymes < 1280355103 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. I'd rather have an on-site database, but I have a feeling those are all proprietary/locked-away < 1280355128 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Morae are a basic unit of sound; a syllable is generally composed of one or two morae. < 1280355130 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do dictionary databases have data on syllables? they should. < 1280355149 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.11/20100701023340] < 1280355150 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are freely available reasonably comprehensive English pronunciation dictionaries, you could base heuristics on those. < 1280355151 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: aha. that could be interesting. Again, I need databases because I am surely not going to compile that information myself. < 1280355161 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Trivial in Japanese. :P < 1280355165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, know the IPA? < 1280355175 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of it. I don't know it. < 1280355217 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why not just fetch the IPA and match the last few phonemes? < 1280355241 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or do fancy analysis on the consonant/vowel patterns. < 1280355280 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1280355302 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fetch implies net dependence. I suppose you could compile with that information and then have it local for the program in question? < 1280355327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BEEP has about 250k English word in it. < 1280355340 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've noticed rhymezone is kind of subpar at finding rhymes. So I'd rather use a better service or do it myself via IPA < 1280355340 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The IPA for the entirety of English, CakeProphet? < 1280355355 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur? < 1280355356 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...no < 1280355357 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :("British English example pronounciation" dictionary, that is.) < 1280355366 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: for the words in question. the words in the poem are static information. < 1280355372 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, OK. < 1280355400 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you'd need the IPA for any words that would need rhyme-matching. < 1280355440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: OED should have the IPA for all of English. < 1280355441 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:D < 1280355447 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhyme < 1280355467 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes? < 1280355479 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To what extent does the OED/whatever give information on stresses? < 1280355485 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea. < 1280355500 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OED is commercial, though. You can find BEEP at http://svr-www.eng.cam.ac.uk/~ajr/wsjcam0/node8.html -- it's not exactly IPA, but phonemes anyway. < 1280355518 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wiktionary? < 1280355531 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very structured < 1280355539 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, that was universally addressed. < 1280355541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I think there was some primary-stress markers in it too.) < 1280355543 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. < 1280355555 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, hardly helpful. < 1280355570 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can grep for "IPA: /.*/" and sometimes get the pronunciation < 1280355604 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also cmudict: http://www.speech.cs.cmu.edu/cgi-bin/cmudict < 1280355612 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has some stress info in it. < 1280355616 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, does BEEP give us data on the stresses? < 1280355631 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually wiktionary seems passable based on some random anecdotal queries < 1280355655 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :127k words in cmudict 0.6, maybe more in 0.7. < 1280355692 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AW0 T R EY1 JH AH0 S < 1280355709 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but for rhyme matching I think we'll need to know where the stress falls. < 1280355711 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The digits are stress-markers, ISTR. < 1280355723 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, excellent. < 1280355750 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION will need to go through this conversation in logs for when he actually goes about this project.
< 1280355765 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I write poems, so I am very much interested in writing poems that compute. I actually write poems in Python and Perl sometimes. < 1280355775 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 = no stress, 1 = primary stress, 2 = secondary stress. I'm sure they have better descriptions of their data there too. < 1280355801 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess you'd still need a heuristic if you wanted to extract syllable information for measure from that < 1280355828 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldnt be a terribly complex one, though < 1280355849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen some syllable-level metadata somewhere, but I don't remember where, and it probably wasn't a public source. < 1280355872 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, is this BEEP or CMU? < 1280355890 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also might've been for Finnish morphological analysis, which would be less than helpful. < 1280355901 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(AW0 T) (R EY1 JH) (AH0 S) versus (AW0 T) (R EY1) (JH AH0 S) < 1280355931 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For rhyming, the eager variant would probably be better anyway < 1280355938 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION realises that what he thought were "l"s were "1"s.
< 1280355947 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I take that back < 1280355950 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stress numbers were from CMU's description, but I think BEEP had something very similar. < 1280355971 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CMU might be better documented; the phoneme set is a standard one etc. < 1280355999 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1280355999 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least better documented on the website; the BEEP tarball has some docs too. < 1280356002 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Outrageous, contagious. That's precisely what this phage is. < 1280356214 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1280356235 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, what do you plan to do for commands? < 1280356251 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are also more or less simple rulesets for English hyphenation. They're not exactly exact, but could help in separating syllables. < 1280356254 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, you'll want a great degree of freedom. < 1280356322 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember to build algorithms to rank the poems on how meaningful and moving they are; you'll put literary critics out of work. < 1280356348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then they can do something useful with their lives. < 1280356349 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: haven't even considered that yet. Still working on the syntatical structures. < 1280356391 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, which accent would you prefer? < 1280356451 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha gcc's having licensing problems < 1280356467 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they can't legally copy examples from source into documentation < 1280356498 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha! < 1280356500 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linky? < 1280356735 0 :GreaseMonkey!~gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1280356958 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, incidentally. < 1280356968 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some old bore called, but I sent him away. < 1280356973 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take THAT, Feedback! < 1280357129 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wat? < 1280357134 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean which accent? < 1280357159 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. BEEP is British English, which I assume isn't your accent. < 1280357173 0 :aliseiphone!~ehirdipho@82.132.139.6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280357184 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bjorn stood in accusation against the masked blind man. < 1280357195 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1280357205 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan! < 1280357249 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :errordomain IRCError { ALISE, SGEO, PHANTOM_HOOVER } < 1280357268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : most words begin with consonants, but only certain ones. Feel free to hack the source of simpleacro to add weighting. oerjan made a weighting algorithm but didn't produce a full list of weighted words < 1280357310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw it could be changed to use a Map instead of a list, if you have so many things to choose from that you want binary search < 1280357317 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a tree, perhaps < 1280357356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually given the probabilistic nature, you'd probably want the tree to be balanced not by letters, but by probability < 1280357399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so left and right subtrees have approx same probability rather than number of letters) < 1280357422 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would probably be a bit long for an EgoBot hack though :D < 1280357543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION plays around with opengenera
< 1280357545 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:56:18 a DFA with two heads is already "trivially" stronger than one with just one head < 1280357548 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:56:26 trivially if you know where to look < 1280357563 0 :tombom__!tombom@82.2.64.148 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280357581 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah that was what (^n)^n does < 1280357588 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is < 1280357670 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1280357708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how hard it would be to add scroll wheel support to it? < 1280357712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, ^ < 1280357726 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : multihead is always more powerful than nonmultihead, essentially < 1280357747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, talking about monitor setup? < 1280357766 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1280357775 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TM? < 1280357795 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well for DFAs. for higher classes not so much (once you have logspace memory you can do pointers and all the seeking you want) < 1280357805 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can reduce time though. < 1280357851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well probably) < 1280357913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, doesn't an UTM have just one head? < 1280357932 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: this is a generalization < 1280357939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280357964 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i recently read somewhere (perhaps the Godel's Lost Letter archive) that for NP, 2 tapes can simulate any higher number with linear overhead < 1280357968 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1280357970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-) < 1280358112 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(basically you use the power of the nondeterministic TM to _guess_ what the simulated TM will do, write the entire guessed history on one tape and then afterwards use the other tape to go through each simulated tape in turn, checking that the guess is consistent) < 1280358298 0 :Gregor-W!836b416f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.131.107.65.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280358310 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Outrageous, contagious. That's precisely what this phage is. < 1280358316 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I give you three props for that. < 1280358344 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This first prop is a lamp. The second prop is a stool, and the third prop is an umbrella. < 1280358424 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure how much weaker extra heads are than extra tapes < 1280358455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm or are they obviously weaker at all... < 1280358471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(strictly weaker, that is) < 1280358477 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite hotel rooms. They're not weaker. < 1280358508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right < 1280358521 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love using "infinite hotel rooms" as an argument :P < 1280358526 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe even stronger < 1280358569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amazing thing is that i think i got what you meant :D < 1280358583 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget what the actual name of the relevant theory is :P < 1280358587 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey! Infinite hotel rooms! < 1280358632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for n tapes, you simulate them with n heads by interleaving the tapes in the single one) < 1280358667 0 :tombom__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1280358706 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: well infinite hotel rooms is usually about set theory cardinals < 1280358710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :afaik < 1280358766 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure sure, but it's all infinities :P < 1280358825 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinities have different properties, though < 1280358841 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, Hilbert's Hotel? < 1280358854 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: also when i say weaker/stronger here, i mean within the same O() complexity class, so just placing all the tapes inside one is _not_ a proof - but the heads allow you to remove the extra overhead except for a constant n < 1280358870 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not a theorem < 1280358908 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, there *aren't* any theorems about infinite hotels. < 1280358986 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: ... < 1280359005 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's an analogy, not a theorem. < 1280359026 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Reading comprehension grade: < 1280359031 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Right, the complexity class is what breaks it, but it still proves it if we're talking about simulating a 2-tape on a 2-head, just not vice-versa. < 1280359034 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :F < 1280359043 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Since you can trivially show that it's just going to multiply the time by a constant 2. < 1280359049 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, "relevant". < 1280359081 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: With NP you can DO MAGIC < 1280359084 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looking at that Battleships code has turned sizeable parts of my brain into mush. < 1280359097 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: 's OK, you didn't need those parts anyway. < 1280359107 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: So where did that come from, I missed it X-P < 1280359109 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at work :P < 1280359116 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Can you paste it elsewhere? It isn't loading for me. < 1280359124 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, Phantom_Hoover < 1280359130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to find a good rhyme for "infinite hotel rooms"
< 1280359136 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: So where did that come from, I missed it X-P < 1280359150 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Infinite maids' brooms < 1280359156 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Good AND relevant! < 1280359162 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copying that code has now hung Firefox. < 1280359165 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: GAF < 1280359173 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, guys. Thuys. < 1280359176 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... GAF? < 1280359192 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A sound of startlement and such < 1280359205 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, mispelled "GAH" < 1280359206 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... not one used by humans, but OK. < 1280359209 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahhhh < 1280359210 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Better then :P < 1280359249 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.com/V3jWjXtg doesn't work for you, aliseiphone? < 1280359256 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, ^ < 1280359270 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/w/index.php?title=You_are_Reading_the_Name_of_this_Esolang&curid=2331&diff=18244&oldid=10210 < 1280359277 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: As I said. < 1280359345 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't really copy and paste directly, because that thing is probably 300K. < 1280359346 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm so honoured the spammers chose an article on *my* language to deface. < 1280359386 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1280359386 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I saw the link, I'm just wondering where it came from. < 1280359417 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, Sgeo mentioned someone who was either a troll or an idiot on ##C++. < 1280359434 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I poked my head around the door. < 1280359446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: *POOF* < 1280359458 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, you're the one who mentioned it < 1280359469 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style. < 1280359469 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, I mean in the first place. < 1280359478 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...? < 1280359479 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CPDL4O3w3qyrngEQ2AUYTzIIBjvYkGk7we0 Why is this woman looking at a reversed computer screen with totally pointless language and technology names written all over it ... < 1280359484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, that was coppro, wasn't it. < 1280359486 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean to Gregor-W? < 1280359490 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1280359492 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, yes < 1280359493 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1280359501 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is slowly going insane
< 1280359508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: i assume you have trouble editing yourself, but in case that's not why you're asking i should point out i am _not_ a wiki administrator, so i can do no more than an ordinary user < 1280359510 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I pasted it originally, yes < 1280359515 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1280359519 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: WHERE FROM GRAAAH :p < 1280359530 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: It's a diabolical mind-control thing. She's actually strapped in a chair... < 1280359531 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: Someone wanted help with it in ##c++ < 1280359534 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just have to know what subhuman monster initiated this. < 1280359542 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I assume he got kickbanned :P < 1280359562 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He wasn't, actually. < 1280359568 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: um someone else got their edit in before mine, even < 1280359573 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he wasn't even kbed from ##c, which is bizzarre < 1280359575 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We all had a go at him, and he sodded off after a while. < 1280359578 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*bizarre < 1280359588 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :##c++ usually doesn't have ops around < 1280359613 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wiki doesn't report an edit conflict if you are trying to do the exact same edit as someone else... < 1280359628 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i guess that makes sense) < 1280359631 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh nose D-8 < 1280359632 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My money's still on "troll", or possibly "lying egomaniac". < 1280359647 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's a lot of effort just for trolling ... < 1280359654 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, are you referring to our simultaneous POOFs? < 1280359661 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, I know... < 1280359673 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My money is on "very much newbie programmer", maybe "newbie thinker". < 1280359692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh it was you? < 1280359693 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, the code is all so similar that anyone who could actually program could have used an automatic generator. < 1280359719 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PASTE IT SOMEWHERE < 1280359722 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1280359748 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, I have a wgotten version which I could email, but I don't want to crash Firefox again. < 1280359755 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... oh my god ... the only loop in the whole thing is one for loop restricted to 64 iterations ... < 1280359778 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: use sprunge < 1280359801 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curl -F 'sprunge= I did wonder once if you could make a game out of NTMs -- one player tries to choose transitions that will make the machine accept, the other tries to choose transitions that will make it reject < 1280360115 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, can I post the other thing it's almost entirely made of. < 1280360123 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would seem to fit better with an ATM actually... < 1280360128 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, he thought arrays were BAD, < 1280360131 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG that's the best game idea ever. < 1280360147 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :While using arrays for strings, but not realising such. < 1280360151 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make it a card game, sell it for billions. < 1280360168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ATMs are afaiu essentially the Minimax algorithm turned into a TM concept) < 1280360169 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Best part: he claimed to have a master's in CS and 3 years of C++ experience. < 1280360207 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: My mind. It is boggled. < 1280360215 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, # < 1280360215 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : case 77: < 1280360215 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1280360215 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rowseven[18] = 'B'; < 1280360215 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1280360216 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rowseven[19] = 'A'; < 1280360217 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1280360219 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : break; is most of the rest of the code < 1280360222 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.............................. < 1280360226 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1280360256 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what am I looking at < 1280360261 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to print it out at some point and hang it on a wall. < 1280360267 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: Pure, unadulterated fail. < 1280360273 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...really? < 1280360275 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1280360277 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, it's the end of the universe. < 1280360278 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I thought it was < 1280360282 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't think it was possible < 1280360285 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you try to compile it, time stops. < 1280360298 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there a paste I can see of the rest of this code? < 1280360305 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just... can't imagine what it does. < 1280360310 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: http://pastebin.com/V3jWjXtg < 1280360311 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I now feel more comfortable with the idea of others seeing my code. < 1280360322 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because no matter how bad it is, it is not as bad as that. < 1280360378 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite what he learned C++ from is one of those things I want to know, but will probably regret finding the answer. < 1280360404 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He claimed that his professor liked his style < 1280360419 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that he was the only person to get an A in his year. < 1280360448 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He never claimed that the professor wasn't piss-drunk 24 hours a day, did he? < 1280360459 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, not that I remember. < 1280360520 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: or to put it differently, if an alternating turing machine is played as a game where one player does all the universal transitions and tries to make it reject, and the other player does all the existensial transitions and tries to make it accept, then perfect play gives exactly the same result as the usual ATM interpretation < 1280360543 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know < 1280360548 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've actually seen worse code < 1280360548 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Well, once you've lied once, the cost of additional lies goes right down < 1280360550 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, no < 1280360560 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nevermind. I've seen worse code in an /actual/ piece of software < 1280360560 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet, Do share. < 1280360574 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's some of the MERC/GodWars codebase < 1280360579 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MUD codebase < 1280360584 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see it. < 1280360587 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put up or shut up. < 1280360587 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm < 1280360588 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1280360592 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw some terrible code by my fellow Computing students, but that's incidental. < 1280360605 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even it wasn't anywhere near that bad. < 1280360614 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm.... I'll need to dig around. It's thousands of lines. I want the best example of why it is bad code. < 1280360628 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night. < 1280360635 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the main flaw it commits is the lack of abstraction. Rather than, you know, using functions... they decide instead to use copy and paste for everything. < 1280360640 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CakeProphet: If it takes that much digging, then it's not as bad :P < 1280360652 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: I mean, what it does is /functional/. but it's terrible design. < 1280360654 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love the way the guy declares airpone as an int. < 1280360660 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHICH REMINDS ME hey guys where's my lambda calculus in CPP? < 1280360669 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W, Lazy K? < 1280360679 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the C preprocessor. < 1280360681 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything Turing-complete in CPP. < 1280360682 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Carry on. < 1280360682 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1280360686 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard stories of similarly bad code, but never seen it. Like, where the author used a loop every time he accessed an element of an array -- even if it was a single element. < 1280360686 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-W: I'll do it on Friday. < 1280360689 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1280360692 0 :Gregor-W!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Awesome < 1280360693 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1280360701 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Array? Loop! < 1280360708 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the planes shall land with supplies! < 1280360725 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow it took some people in my class months to write an input validation program. < 1280360750 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that class in general was so idiotic I'm glad I dropped it. < 1280360768 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They used *Javascript*. ON IE 5 FOR THE FREAKING MAC. < 1280360768 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah my programming class peers have been... dismal at programming < 1280360784 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, I get to tutor them for money < 1280360788 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEY HAD FIREFOX AND SAFARI INSTALLED, BUT WHICH ONE WERE WE TOLD TO USE? < 1280360801 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm not complaining. I encourage them to be stupidity so I can show them how it's done. < 1280360812 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawl stupidity < 1280360841 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The reason? "It has better debugging facilities." < 1280360862 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. it would tell you if you piped /dev/random into