< 1280448004 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dammit, I am getting to the bottom of this. < 1280448015 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What picture? < 1280448029 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1280448037 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you meant a picture of _you_ < 1280448051 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dude < 1280448067 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bloody TinEye... < 1280448164 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Evander Berry Wall (1860–1940) was a New York dude[1] who became famous in the 1880s for his extravagantly refined look." < 1280448187 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is the single best opening to a Wikipedia article. < 1280448267 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280448285 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lumeniki.referata.com/wiki/Jesus_(carnation_bread) < 1280448289 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Just what < 1280448298 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... Huh? < 1280448341 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will you promise not to be confrontational if I tell you that he's been turning up at RationalWiki lately? < 1280448393 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weirdly, he could pass for normal there. < 1280448421 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All because I decided to use "eir" < 1280448499 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Lumenos < 1280448503 0 :Lumenos!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Sgeo < 1280448505 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eep < 1280448510 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a registered nick < 1280448518 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me just reassure everyone that I'm not em < 1280448531 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU < 1280448562 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you don't love me anymore? < 1280448573 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Lumenos < 1280448581 0 :Lumenos!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Phantom_Hoover < 1280448594 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must ask 'im about that. < 1280448633 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a name for the problem that is halfway between SAT and TAUT? (Do exactly half the assignments make the sentence true, the other half false?) < 1280448638 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: reminds me of the congo sapeurs < 1280448679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAUT? < 1280448686 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tautology? < 1280448687 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TAUTOLOGY < 1280448695 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tautology? < 1280448704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and SAT as in 3-SAT? < 1280448707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Complement of SAT (SATISFIABILITY) < 1280448743 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But no, I don't know why complexity theorists like SHOUTING. < 1280448753 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: seems connected to #P and PP < 1280448759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, how can something be between SAT and TAUT? < 1280448769 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#P asks for the exact count < 1280448787 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Do exactly half the assignments make the sentence true, the other half false? < 1280448799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280448813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, what if you have an odd number of assignments? < 1280448830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PP essentially asks for majority, although it's formulated as probability < 1280448834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are 2^n possible assignments for n variables. How can that be odd? < 1280448864 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Don't say n=0.) < 1280448891 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, ah true < 1280448895 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also +-in-a-circle P asks whether the number is even or odd < 1280448897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, also I set n=-1 < 1280448921 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: That last one sounds like it -- hard to Google that though < 1280448927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that gives... half an assignment? < 1280448955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: um no it's not whether it's exactly half, it's whether the number is even or odd < 1280448967 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharp-P < 1280448969 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, right < 1280448975 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the first one) < 1280449001 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, i remember this now < 1280449165 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Garden#sharpsat is the SAT version for #P < 1280449216 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm naively trying to pessimize possible solutions to this problem < 1280449292 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The idea of an adversary doesn't really apply to something like a boolean sentence < 1280449320 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :encoding an RSA factoring problem usually gives you something practically impossible to solve, afaiu < 1280449350 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, integer factorization is in both NP and co-NP, so... < 1280449371 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can make it a SAT or TAUT problem as much as you want < 1280449382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: um no that's primality < 1280449395 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No.... PRIMES is in P, remember? < 1280449420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually _finding_ a factor if you know it's a prime is not known to be in co-NP afaik < 1280449468 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact testing whether there's a factor in a certain interval is NP-complete < 1280449469 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, P is in both NP and co-NP, but that's not what I/you meant < 1280449474 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1280449493 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(saw it in lipton's blog archive the other day) < 1280449513 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It is not known exactly which complexity classes contain the decision version of the integer factorization problem. It is known to be in both NP and co-NP." < 1280449520 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wikipedia, the perfect authority < 1280449540 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1280449552 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :link? < 1280449559 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_factorization < 1280449619 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh 1 < d < M, not M < d < N < 1280449627 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :might make a difference... < 1280449664 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right it explains why < 1280449678 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that applies only if the lower bound is 1 < 1280449704 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Confrontational? I dislike RationalWiki. Doesn't mean I flip at its mention. < 1280449721 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, but the last time was hardly pleasant. < 1280449731 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also says " It is suspected to be outside of all three of the complexity classes P, NP-complete, and co-NP-complete." I don't know how it could be in NP (or FNP) and "outside of NP-complete" though... < 1280449809 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-complete is a subset of NP, possibly strict. < 1280449839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I never understood that. < 1280449842 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Maybe for you. I just made what to me was an offhand remark. < 1280449843 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"outside" doesn't mean "harder than", just not an element of < 1280449855 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. K... < 1280449870 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, math talk confuse english brain. < 1280449882 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be harder than P but easier (in the reduction sense) than NP-complete and co-NP-complete < 1280449891 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I mean no offence, you irrational Hellspawn, you. < 1280449902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hellspawn? < 1280449909 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Good one. < 1280449913 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spawn; of Hell. < 1280449971 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I choose it to mean that my spawn point is in hell. < 1280449973 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So these are the dying moments of my last night as a sleeper. < 1280449979 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No fanfares... < 1280449979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, isn't the only known PRIMES algorithm in P extremely slow? As in, exponential algorithms are faster for practical purposes? < 1280450000 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: _random_ algorithms are faster for practical purposes < 1280450014 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iirc you need proper reals < 1280450019 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, I suppose you don't get holidays from /bin. < 1280450021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, hm? < 1280450022 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sqrt(2) and the like < 1280450024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*randomized < 1280450026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, ah < 1280450028 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the algo < 1280450030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, right < 1280450034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that makes more sense < 1280450039 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, *if* P = NP (I'm not entirely convinced by my own proof) then I bet some of these remarkably efficient algorithms work by creating a new "customized" Turing machine (or PL interpreter of whatever sort) on the fly and emulating it. Or perhaps several in sequence. < 1280450068 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if P = NP the constant is probably huge. < 1280450080 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I definitely think P != NP. < 1280450082 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I often wonder how any computer works at all. < 1280450086 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1280450087 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also the random algorithms can be done in such a way as to give a certificate of certainty unless they fail, in which case you just retry < 1280450090 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Create a TM which creates a TM which creates a TM which.... k times. < 1280450091 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Badly. < 1280450102 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, flip a single bit and you segfault. < 1280450110 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NP-complete is strict subset of NP unless P=NP. NP-complete and co-NP-complete are disjoint unless NP=co-NP (then NP-complete=co-NP-complete). < 1280450113 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, lets just get a quantum computer and be done with it < 1280450122 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: /bin? Loony bin. < 1280450131 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Yes < 1280450133 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yea, quite so. < 1280450155 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please tell me I'm not the first to make that pun. < 1280450161 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'm not sure that a quantum computer can test primality any faster < 1280450165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I mean, flip a single bit and you segfault. <-- ECC used to be a lot more common in the early days of RAM < 1280450171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm it can factor faster < 1280450179 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :& such an unassuming way it draws to a close. Don't I die at the end of tradgedies? Dammit, playwrite. < 1280450182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: apparently. < 1280450184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and if you can't factor, then you have a prime, right? < 1280450187 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do it all wrong! < 1280450197 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*playwright < 1280450199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1280450201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :EEC < 1280450203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not ECC < 1280450205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1280450211 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ECC. < 1280450213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe I was correct to begin with < 1280450213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280450232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: btw it hasn't been proved that the constant power if P = NP has to be as big as 2, even... < 1280450249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the best bounds are somewhere between 1 and 2 < 1280450261 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hell, mathematics is 90% hunches. < 1280450268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280450268 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for solving SAT) < 1280450271 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a few more of my own? < 1280450289 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280450296 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many proofs depend on Riemann, Goldbach, Collatz :) < 1280450323 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://abstrusegoose.com/133 < 1280450325 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also Zorn < 1280450341 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: that's an axiom < 1280450345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: lipton discusses at least 4 possibilities in one if his most popular blog articles: P=NP and fast, P=NP but huge exponent, P != NP and slow, P != NP but so small constants it still works in practice < 1280450347 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(choice) < 1280450349 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*one of < 1280450372 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and has been proved consistent wrt ZF < 1280450380 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(can you tell i'm slowly gobbling up his blog archive? :D) < 1280450398 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Which blog? < 1280450401 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone : What's your point < 1280450401 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Goedel? < 1280450404 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Axioms are theorems < 1280450405 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1280450421 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: Zorn is "proven consistent" < 1280450429 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Riemann could be plain false. < 1280450432 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god, the P=NP argument works! <> < 1280450436 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: note that quantum computers only give the correct answer with a certain probability, so you might _still_ want one of those certificates < 1280450437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what about the variant: P?=NP can't be proved with current axioms (that is, it is independent) < 1280450446 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for shor's factorization algorithm) < 1280450467 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will quantum computing make Schrodinbugs a reality? < 1280450479 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Answers on a postcard; I must sleep. < 1280450531 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280450561 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no. < 1280450576 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't just have random shit be independent! < 1280450589 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can't ADD a P algo for NP as an axiom < 1280450591 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i think that may have been mentioned in the comments < 1280450595 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nonsense! < 1280450598 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I connected a few seconds ago I got a connection timeout (after sending PASS/NICK/USER), it didn't do that before. But now I connected it worked < 1280450600 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is that? < 1280450611 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is my IRC client broken? < 1280450615 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is the server broken? < 1280450619 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something in between? < 1280450625 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: It's certainly a possibility, that there is no proof we can make. < 1280450629 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just like riemann < 1280450631 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Dunno. All kinds of strange transistent errors can happen. < 1280450648 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So P = NP but there is no P algo for NP? < 1280450676 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it is independent < 1280450678 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then < 1280450680 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to write a music synthesizer program so I wrote a music using QORCH < 1280450683 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: More likely P != NP and there is no proof. < 1280450685 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZFC + P=NP < 1280450686 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: there are at least two ways of having it be independent afaict: there is an algorithm that works but no proof that it works, or there's a proof that there's an algorithm but it's nonconstructive and doesn't _actually_ exist :D < 1280450686 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/RHYa < 1280450688 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1280450696 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZFC + P!=NP < 1280450699 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :both work < 1280450706 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Take algo from former < 1280450714 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It must work in latter < 1280450719 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I* didn't use the word "independent". < 1280450720 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280450745 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: For the latter the constructivist in me punches you. < 1280450763 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, of course i forgot the obvious third: no proof and no algorithm < 1280450764 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This music is in 12-TET but the program QORCH supports just intonation as well, and even Bohlen-Pierce < 1280450765 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280450789 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You simply have to enter the correct parameters to the TEMPERAMENT or TUNING commands, to do it..... < 1280450833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : That's nonsense! <-- indeed. But P!=NP might be true but unprovable or such. I can't see why that one is nonsense < 1280450845 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :having P=NP and unprovable would be closer to nonsense though < 1280450859 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION grumbles about constructivism
< 1280450885 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematics is not yet ready for such problems. < 1280450887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about it? < 1280450888 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grumbles about destructivism < 1280450891 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, goodnight for the last time here. < 1280450896 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1280450896 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O < 1280450902 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh! < 1280450910 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone: Good night you are late!! < 1280450911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, what about constructivism < 1280450911 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yer stupid "unprovable" stuffs :P < 1280450912 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here as in the realworld here, not the #esoteric here < 1280450917 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: an algorithm which works but no one knows _why_ it works... < 1280450920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, um, such stuff exists < 1280450920 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION :Ds
< 1280450936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, consider that thing about cardinality < 1280450950 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah. But constructivist mathematics has much less. < 1280450952 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or the parallel lines stuff < 1280450956 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We could have P algorithms for NP-complete problems, but we can't prove they are in P < 1280450957 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much, much less. < 1280450966 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh < 1280450973 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Parallel lines is independent < 1280450981 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: or we cannot prove they actually give the right answer < 1280450986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, exactly < 1280450987 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which P=NP cannot be < 1280450990 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: indeed < 1280450991 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just agreed < 1280450996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aliseiphone, P!=NP could be < 1280451006 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ffs < 1280451016 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT DO YOU THINK INDEPENDANT MEANS < 1280451025 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does not mean unprovable!!! < 1280451037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Well, goodnight for the last time here. <-- good night then ;P < 1280451048 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I see what independent means < 1280451057 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, considering P?=NP to be independent is a nice mindbender trip: the algorithm version of non-Euclidean geometry < 1280451061 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Independent X wrt ZFC: ZFCX and ZFCnotX are consistent relative to ZFC < 1280451063 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same way that C is independent of ZF? < 1280451068 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that complexity theory relies so much on diagonalization just begs for the theory to get some of the undecidability that can entail, anyway... < 1280451082 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unprovable X in ZFC: X is true, no proof of X exists < 1280451095 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Right. < 1280451101 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye. < 1280451106 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bye aliseiphone < 1280451106 0 :aliseiphone!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info < 1280451127 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION happies
< 1280451130 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZFC+CollatzAlwaysHalts vs ZFC+CollatzSometimesLoops < 1280451135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, isn't the continuum hypothesis unprovable in ZFC too? < 1280451141 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Collatz? < 1280451158 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove that Z is a valid proof of X < 1280451168 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1280451173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also independent < 1280451190 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Independence is a bit mind-bending < 1280451190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1280451196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why couldn't P!=NP be < 1280451198 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For arbritrary Z and X) < 1280451199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see that < 1280451221 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would render it a matter of opinion, wouldn't it? < 1280451231 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which seems... unintuitive < 1280451238 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But intuition has no place, I guess < 1280451245 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to me, it's just that the actual _algorithms_ involved means there are such a large number of different ways it could be independent < 1280451292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and also that unlike the ZF+C and CH cases it doesn't make sense to just pick one possibility and try to use it < 1280451318 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that's what confuses me a bit about P!=NP being independent < 1280451320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm < 1280451330 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that gives you no actual practical algorithm < 1280451354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I love non-constructive proofs. Because they make ehird mad < 1280451358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280451360 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1280451380 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird is actually a constructivist? < 1280451384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1280451396 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he loves the constructive math used in theorem provers < 1280451408 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1026 < 1280451416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, why can't we have non-constructive theorem provers? < 1280451445 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can have them talk _about_ non-constructive math, of course < 1280451465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, hm < 1280451494 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Night < 1280451495 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1280451496 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the ones based on higher order functions and the curry-howard isomorphism naturally have constructive stuff at their base, and deals with it more naturally. iiuc. < 1280451507 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you'd proven constructivism, you could use it in a proof. Since you're not allowing it in proofs, you haven't proven it, and so you must destroy your own constructivist programming! I'm Prozac the Bear!" < 1280451514 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go to Special:Random on Wikipedia and make a esolang about whatever comes up < 1280451528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: is that an actual T&R quote? < 1280451531 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes < 1280451540 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://tr.froup.com/tr.pl?1027 < 1280451570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read a bit of it, horrible drawing. Worse than xkcd even < 1280451587 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why the Cornersheep turned evil < 1280451589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shitty story to boot < 1280451599 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now _that's_ a lie < 1280451611 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that is subjective :P < 1280451644 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I voted the second one. But is there a command-line version of those polls, too? < 1280451674 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Open it in elinks? < 1280451675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... what polls? < 1280451675 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the horrible drawing is even used as a meta-joke. all the time. < 1280451692 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: No that is not what I mean < 1280451693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes, it gets tedious very quickly < 1280451734 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean like how sprunge has it you can send/receive file using that simple script, with curl < 1280451841 0 :cheater99!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280451876 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We were talking about Lumenos, which reminded me of Losethos < 1280451882 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone want to talk about losethos>/ < 1280451959 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is Losethos? < 1280451976 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This junk < 1280451983 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1280451984 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.losethos.com/ < 1280451996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I repeat my questions: what polls < 1280452007 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, the one in the topic < 1280452010 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: See the topic message < 1280452043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly it's a brand of cough drops that turned sentient < 1280452098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ... what is? < 1280452108 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :losethos, duh < 1280452156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay even at the start of the page it fails < 1280452169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can not enter x86-64 mode without paging enabled < 1280452239 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280452263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"As anyone will tell you, < 1280452263 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux is a just a kernel, but GNU/Linux is an operating system." < 1280452271 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, some people are of that opinion, iirc < 1280452276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well. That is correct < 1280452280 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m < 1280452282 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>.> < 1280452283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically < 1280452290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, I don't use it like that either < 1280452305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I'm trying to be very clear in the context of other userlands < 1280452312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like BSD/Linux < 1280452314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or whatever < 1280452352 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I looked at some information about LoseThos now < 1280452437 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would have included a Forth system in it, but that's me.... < 1280452477 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like some of the changes that LoseThos has difference from C < 1280452606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, about that OS, the author does seem reasonably skilled. Otherwise ey couldn't pull off such a compiler and so on < 1280452658 0 :SimonRC!~sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1280452675 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1280452794 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any vimmers here? < 1280452840 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Do you mean vi improved? < 1280452846 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1280452854 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it at Free Geek < 1280452909 0 :cheater99!~cheater@ip-80-226-21-59.vodafone-net.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1280452977 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which vim do you use? < 1280453002 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Whichever one is included in Ubuntu LTSP, since that is what their computers use there < 1280453015 0 :coppro!~coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1280453022 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok. < 1280453084 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im not sure how i feel about it < 1280453130 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: I just use it because it is the one installed on there, they use Ubuntu and LTSP for everything there < 1280453154 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although they do not have the "mail" command installed < 1280453181 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like some of the features of it < 1280453194 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also like some of the features of vim < 1280453198 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the editing featues < 1280453204 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c/d < 1280453218 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with w/b/$/^/etc < 1280453283 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would do some things differently, when I write Linux distribution I will probably write my own things in a way that is more better in my opinion instead. Like, one thing would be how the status bar is written, I would do it differently < 1280453337 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if you are recording a macro called "3" it will display "q3" in the status line, in insert mode it will display "i", it can display "v" for visual mode, and so on < 1280453348 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And has position for each one so you can display multiples at once < 1280453352 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i hate how in navigation mode the shit navigates by character tho < 1280453361 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i find character navigation to be annoying < 1280453530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, writing a new vim is a separate task from making a new linux distro < 1280453568 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses emacs
< 1280453581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same < 1280453583 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, when I have to use a terminal editor < 1280453588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :µemacs quite often < 1280453681 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280453683 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It is, but if I write new Linux distro, I write a lot of new programs as part of that project too, because I can make it many differences, including new window manager, new text editor, new shell, and so on. < 1280453716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :new shell? I assume you will have the old one around still < 1280453724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since stuff like configure scripts expect bash < 1280453726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sh < 1280453738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night → < 1280453804 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't need configure scripts I can use some feature of CSPIDER (if it is a Enhanced CWEB program), or else enter some configure manually and differently, and then convert it < 1280453881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, so your system won't be POSIX compatible then < 1280453929 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about textmate < 1280453931 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who uses textmate < 1280453939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I never heard of that < 1280453941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it? < 1280453944 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a mac text editor < 1280453951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, no one sane uses mac < 1280453954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that answers it < 1280453961 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I intend to make it enough POSIX compatible that most programs written for it in C (or other ways that compiles into a binary) will still run with little or no modifications, except possibly having to modify makefiles. < 1280453962 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise does! < 1280453969 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, alise isnt sane < 1280453970 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but.. < 1280453971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, I rest my case :P < 1280453974 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XP < 1280453988 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although the programs should still be changed to improve them to be better designed in the way of Arcane Linux. < 1280454009 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres a plugin for textmate called vimate < 1280454011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice distro name < 1280454016 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that adds on vi-like tools < 1280454030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur, just use emacs with viper-mode and be done with it :P < 1280454045 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i really like textmate < 1280454050 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like this modal stuff < 1280454064 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think I have also posted on this channel before, about the codenaming scheme I plan to use with Arcane Linux? < 1280454066 0 :derdon!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280454074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, no idea < 1280454115 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The scheme is that the second version can be codenamed "Illimitable Illithid", the sixth version can be codenamed "Vancouver Island", and so on. < 1280454131 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No relation to any other Linux distro codenaming scheme < 1280454152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, hm? I don't see the logic in your scheme < 1280454171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also "Vancouver Island" doesn't fit the obvious theme established by the first < 1280454175 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: And the first version can be codenamed "Initial". Now see if you can figure out its logic.... < 1280454193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, too tired and lazy to do so < 1280454196 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If still not, I can give more clues even, or tell you the answer < 1280454199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not even going to try < 1280454227 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, let's see if anyone else on here will figure it out < 1280454238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night really → < 1280454250 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone gets it except AnMaster ;D < 1280454263 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Really? < 1280454285 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well everyone i've checked, anyway :D < 1280454296 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including you? < 1280454302 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i think you mentioned it once before < 1280454319 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I did < 1280454323 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well given that i'm the only other person i've checked... < 1280454325 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also mentioned that I mentioned it once before. < 1280454411 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does Sgeo figure it out? < 1280454427 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1280454442 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't paying attention < 1280454505 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Now you can read it and pay attention? < 1280454530 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get it < 1280454778 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people might be confused because of "Vancouver Island" does not fit the theme established by the first, but actually it does fit the same theme, and in addition "Illimitable Illithid" is actually the second not the first < 1280454790 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that is OK if it is confusing, some people can figure it out or try to figure it out or not! < 1280454794 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is the way. < 1280454852 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you think there is an obvious theme established and then it doesn't fit, well, it is deceptive, it is not the obvious theme! < 1280455153 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please read this and write comment, especially if you play 4E: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/html/differences.html < 1280455162 0 :Gregor!~Gregor@75-151-73-57-Spokane.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280455183 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't play 4E, I prefer 3.5E) < 1280455344 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Icosahedral is the opposite of 4E do you think so? < 1280455445 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think "vegitabelation" is a good word for describing 4E? < 1280455682 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280456254 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :richard stallman, when he was younger, was a total hotty < 1280456737 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Make his hair blond and you've got me :P < 1280456973 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then or now? x3 < 1280457067 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably neither, I actually have no idea what RMS looked like young :P < 1280457089 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just applying the HAIR FALLACY (that all men with long hair look alike because that's their only distinguishing feature) < 1280457126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Well, he had short hair. And no beard. < 1280457135 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah :P < 1280457289 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was a total hotty. < 1280457680 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like total nerd. < 1280457692 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :False dichotomy. < 1280457698 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280457705 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280457896 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Which is, of course, the best kind of dichotomy. < 1280457931 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION won't be watching Futurama as it airs tonight
< 1280457941 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: FAIL < 1280457958 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone spoils me, I'll fake a call made from you to Mom's tech support < 1280458525 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280459413 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1280460810 0 :cal153!~cal@c-24-4-207-72.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280461590 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1280462250 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beh < 1280462276 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280462302 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1280462507 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, do you guys ever sleep? < 1280462522 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1280462548 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been here almost whole day and it's like 5 in the morning here < 1280462555 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you're still running < 1280462578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only 22:02. < 1280462585 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1280462593 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Missouri. < 1280462604 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280462623 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but oerjan ?! < 1280462633 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZZZ.. what? < 1280462643 0 :sshc!~sshc@unaffiliated/sshc JOIN :#esoteric < 1280462662 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't get sun there anyways; what does he care for circadian rhythm? < 1280462674 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats pikhq -----###
< 1280462681 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1280462691 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in summer they've got everlasting day < 1280462699 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brother complains about that < 1280462702 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still. < 1280462729 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhmh < 1280462733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circadian rhythm means you only wake up every 17 years, right? < 1280462750 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1280462754 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280462796 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just got back from a party and i'm going straight to sleep < 1280462813 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: OK < 1280462827 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh sh.. < 1280462841 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see ya later < 1280462851 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1280462852 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO^H^HOK < 1280463119 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280463166 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 17 years? < 1280463326 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about 17 years? < 1280463382 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, I saw the log file now < 1280463397 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do not know the answer of that question, however. < 1280463730 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and another pun goes *whoosh*, i see < 1280463784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now it _does_ rely on you knowing a certain thing from biology) < 1280464862 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know biology much, I mostly study physics instead < 1280464893 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :guys, opinion needed < 1280464905 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom required tho likely to go unfound < 1280464945 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opinion of what? < 1280465000 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found that the negative array sizes trick in C is not only something I used, but now I also found it mentioned in section 5.10.1 of the GNU autoconf manual. < 1280465080 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: unification < 1280465111 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unification of what? < 1280465122 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :objects < 1280465123 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1280465145 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if X and Y are variables, [1,X] = [Y,2] unifies with X = 1, Y = 2 < 1280465181 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or say < 1280465191 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[X,X] = [1,2] fails to unify < 1280465207 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I think I understand. < 1280465214 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? so, i have more of an opinion question than anything < 1280465231 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we define ~p to be the objects that *dont* unify with p < 1280465232 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in the second case, what about if you use the Perl6 feature to have multiple values at once (I think Perl6 does this?)? < 1280465239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1280465251 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so then 2 unifies with ~1 < 1280465257 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because ~1 means just "not 1" < 1280465264 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything except 1 will unify with ~1 < 1280465269 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1280465280 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :~X will unify with nothing, because everything unifies with X < 1280465281 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I understand more better. < 1280465293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but heres the question, right < 1280465306 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2] = ~[2,3] will ofcourse work < 1280465319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2] unifies with ~[2,3] because [1,2] does NOT unify with [2,3] < 1280465337 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1280465340 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and similarly, [1,2] unifies with ~[2,X] because [1,2] cannot unify with [2,X] < 1280465355 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but suppose i did < 1280465362 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2] = ~[1,X] < 1280465377 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,2] does definitely unify with [1,X] < 1280465379 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yielding X = 2 < 1280465393 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1280465441 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what about [1,X] ~[1,2] < 1280465454 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[1,X] will unify with [1,2] yielding X = 2 < 1280465466 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does that mean that [1,X] = ~[1,2] fails < 1280465479 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or does it mean that it succeeds yielding X = ~2 < 1280465480 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1280465492 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that is the difficult < 1280465530 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me see...... < 1280465568 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think in spirit the intent is that ~[1,2] should be anything but [1,2], right < 1280465574 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you have to start at one thing at first and then break it in parts? < 1280465575 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dos that include variable bindings with it < 1280465590 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using only the valid ways of breaking the parts < 1280465591 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, i mean, i know how i'd get it to yield X = ~2 < 1280465598 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the issue is whether it SHOULD or not < 1280465696 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess if ~[1,2] corresponds to anything other than [1,2] then [1,X] can unify [1,1] and [1,3] and [1,4] and so on, so it is ~2 but you should possibly ignore the cases [2,2] and [2,3] because those don't unify? I really don't know < 1280465719 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who controls esolangs.org? graue? < 1280465810 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: I don't know. Does esolangs.org have a WHOIS service? < 1280465924 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Therefore it should be able to yield X = ~2 (I think) < 1280465932 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1280466001 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that case, also [1,X] = ~[2,2] means anything other than [2,2] so [1,X] = [1,2] is also OK and now it unifies everything, this way? < 1280466154 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, see, thats the tricky thing, right < 1280466160 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1280466205 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the solution i have for [1,X] = ~[1,2] is to turn ~[1,2] into the disjunction [~1,2] | [1,~2] | [~1,~2] < 1280466223 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, because if [1,X] = ~[1,2] yields X = ~2 then [1,X] = ~[2,2] should unify everything? < 1280466232 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would succeed as [1,X] = [1,~2] < 1280466234 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so X = ~2 < 1280466244 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes that works < 1280466259 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the same trick with ~[2,2] is to turn it into [~2,2] | [2,~2] | [~2,~2] < 1280466283 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so [1,X] succeeds against [~2,2] and [~2,~2] < 1280466293 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so X can be either 2 or ~2 < 1280466301 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which basically means anything at all < 1280466313 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it should < 1280466327 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it is what I meant so it is OK < 1280466335 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you need a special notation for this or is not needed? < 1280466346 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im just using ~p < 1280466369 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1280466529 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have posted first version of Enhanced CWEB by now. Enhanced CWEB version 0.1 < 1280466568 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWEB? < 1280466637 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/cweb/ < 1280466657 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can tell me if is good, comment, or any feature suggestion, question, etc < 1280466664 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or complain, if you really want to < 1280466692 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :augur: Have you ever used CWEB? < 1280466702 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now it is Enhanced CWEB, it is the improved version! < 1280466815 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have a program to print DVI files, you can just print out the DVI files to read it < 1280466962 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive never heard of cweb before x3 < 1280467001 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you have TeX? < 1280467052 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1280467056 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a version of it < 1280467121 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280467127 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then probably you can print a DVI file? There is one new file called CSPIDER that is the new file I added (although I have also made many modifications to the other files). Please tell me if you have any comment about it. < 1280467136 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What version of it do you have? < 1280467175 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but what is SWEB < 1280467178 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWEB, even < 1280467204 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Please note that .ZIP is not a tape archive, so you have to create a directory first before expanding, unlike tape archives where the directory will be created automatically) < 1280467233 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWEB is a system that does various things, one thing it does is allows you to print out the programs using TeX. < 1280467241 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it has other features too. < 1280467244 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what programs < 1280467244 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ... that is neither a property of ZIPs nor TARs. < 1280467254 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a convention. < 1280467264 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor: Yes, I know it is just a convention. < 1280467295 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I mean is that the convention for ZIPs is that you should create the directory yourself, while the convention for tape archives is that you don't need to, because the tape archive will do it for you. < 1280467334 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wikipedia article for CWEB has a list of features (I wrote the list of features): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CWEB But Enhanced CWEB has additional features that are not listed on Wikipedia. < 1280467382 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welp. Time to install Debian on my phone. < 1280467405 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One of the new features in Enhanced CWEB is metamacros, although there are others, too. < 1280467493 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The codes for processing metamacros is in common.w (and common.dvi for printing), while the file cspider.w uses a few metamacros.) < 1280467545 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now do you understand it a bit more? < 1280467679 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1280467717 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280468138 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12.5 hours! < 1280468344 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1280468743 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280471430 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Android has chroot but not mkdir. < 1280471432 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1280471485 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohhh, it's in a weird path. < 1280471486 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strange. < 1280472225 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280472235 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280472344 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gettin' Debian on my phoooooone 8-D < 1280472442 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about Win95? < 1280472507 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's only been done in an emulator. < 1280472509 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BORING. < 1280473985 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION deliberately does not invite Gregor or any other #esoteric er to an event
< 1280475098 0 :relet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1280475553 0 :Flonk!~chatzilla@93-82-44-82.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1280475622 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An esoteric "errr..." < 1280475675 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good morning everybody :) < 1280475689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And on the other hand: at least my phone has Debian on a Debian. (In a matter of fashion, anyway.) < 1280476799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1280476800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1280477511 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1280477638 0 :Deewiant!~deewiant@kekkonen.cs.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1280479957 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1280481842 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-6-179.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280482204 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280482898 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-6-179.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280482903 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1280483091 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1280483141 0 :MigoMipo__!~John@84-217-6-179.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280483147 0 :MigoMipo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280483339 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1280485331 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@cpc3-sgyl21-0-0-cust116.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280485441 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-10-142.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280485582 0 :CakeProphet!~adam@h243.33.18.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280486078 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kurt Gödel looks delightfully evil... < 1280486224 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He would be an ideal candidate for a Halloween costume. < 1280486634 0 :R4ven!~mateusz@bcm95.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1280486643 0 :R4ven!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello! < 1280486733 0 :R4ven!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-.- < 1280486759 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1280486763 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION needs to go back to sleep
< 1280486801 0 :R4ven!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1280487153 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280487156 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that was odd. < 1280487168 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280489342 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-10-142.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280489400 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280489538 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280491767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280491948 0 :MigoMipo__!~John@84-217-10-142.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280492178 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1280492310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vrml. How does one view it? For historical computing purposes. < 1280492348 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tools available to me are: opengenera, ubuntu 7.10, ubuntu 10.04, current arch linux < 1280492503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, nvm found it < 1280492635 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VRML? < 1280492961 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280493017 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: It's like HTML but for 3D. :p < 1280493027 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool... < 1280493046 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also pretty 1990s. < 1280493132 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, the 90s. < 1280493262 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A technically-speaking human-writable ASCII-based syntax for describing 3D scenes with the usual sort of primitives, with some hyperlinking stuff and simplish even-scripting stuff added, meant to be viewed in a browser. < 1280493358 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also made a XML-based successor, X3D. I'm not sure if it was ever used much. < 1280493369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's some more recent competitors in the same space. < 1280493690 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about we do an N-dimensional version? < 1280493702 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a non-Euclidean one! < 1280493747 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1280495896 0 :nooga!~nooga@maverick.aircity.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1280496004 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.111.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280496010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O the night. < 1280496034 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about it? < 1280496044 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This table wobbles! < 1280496050 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Alack alack alack? < 1280496078 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try sawing one of its legs off. < 1280496097 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has only two, and they support the other; wobble wobble wobble. How does one work on this? I recall doing it on previous weekends. < 1280496115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm doing cpp lists. < 1280496118 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With nil. < 1280496184 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do you even make a table with 2 legs? < 1280496209 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno. It has two metal bars on the floor horizontally. < 1280496215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the whole bar curves up and supports the table. < 1280496219 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's for putting over your bed, say. < 1280496264 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Agh, what is up with my mouse? < 1280496269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clicks aren't being recognised. < 1280496271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, they are, but wrongly < 1280496274 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, there. < 1280496332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list.h:18:15: error: macro "true" passed 10 arguments, but takes just 2 < 1280496332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list.h:18:15: error: macro "tl_" requires 3 arguments, but only 1 given < 1280496332 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list.h:18:15: error: macro "hd_" requires 3 arguments, but only 1 given < 1280496346 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn __VA_ARGS__. < 1280496376 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: hey how did you invoke cpp? < 1280496383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the #define f(x) f_(x) trick isn't working for me < 1280496421 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type "cpp". < 1280496430 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gimme your transcripted list.h, please? < 1280496451 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define hd_(x,...) x < 1280496451 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define hd(x) hd_(x) < 1280496451 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define tl_(x,...) __VA_ARGS__ < 1280496451 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define tl(x) tl_(x) < 1280496451 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define cons(x,y) x,y < 1280496451 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define foo cons(a,cons(b,cons(c,d))) < 1280496453 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hd(tl(foo)) < 1280496465 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Erik entered Dalhousie University in Canada at the age of 12, and completed his bachelor's degree when only 14" < 1280496468 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try doing the spacing thing. < 1280496470 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuck you, Erik. < 1280496473 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Did. < 1280496476 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc --version? < 1280496484 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpp (Ubuntu 4.4.3-4ubuntu5) 4.4.3 < 1280496497 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Me too. Hm. So my code has a bug. < 1280496504 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm doing it with cpp, rather than gcc, though. < 1280496509 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280496520 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha, I defined comments in the language < 1280496523 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define rem(...) < 1280496558 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280496559 0 :cpressey!~CPressey@173-9-215-173-Illinois.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280496569 0 :augur!~augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr1.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280496581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi cpressey! < 1280496585 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, GNU cpp strips out comments by itself, though. < 1280496592 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: But that's not standard. < 1280496615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm writing in Industry Standard C Preprocessor. < 1280496619 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: good morning < 1280496632 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It's after noon. < 1280496661 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :time is all like relative and shit man, especially THIS early < 1280496684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 o'clock EST? < 1280496707 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7:30 cst < 1280496722 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or cdt or some such < 1280496723 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you be awake at such a time < 1280496742 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why can't america be like china and adopt a single timezone < 1280496743 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AST < 1280496775 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then life would be simple < 1280496776 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't sleep, have work stuff (a release schedule) that should have been done yesterday, but due to "fun" in testing, it wasn't < 1280496789 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so here i am < 1280496803 0 :MigoMipo__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280496858 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do people who like programming work as programmers? < 1280496860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bizarre. < 1280496866 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: for whatever it's worth, i think cpp can be shown tc. i hold out hope, anyway. < 1280496874 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is bizarre < 1280496876 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, zuh? < 1280496891 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would go for the cyclic tag system < 1280496901 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: programming-as-a-job is widely recognised to be the most kafkaesque, soul-draining sludge of time there is < 1280496901 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing standard as to what a "preprocessor" separately invoked must do (since it doesn't need to be a separate part), but /* ... */ comments need to be replaced by a single space character before preprocessing directives and macro-expansion in any standard C implementation. < 1280496913 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i'm developing "standard conveniences" first to explore the space < 1280496931 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, oh, you mean professional development. < 1280496933 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, whatever; rem() is funner. < 1280496940 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Yeah. < 1280497043 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that's why software sucks, really. < 1280497045 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i been thinking about the difference between "true but unprovable" and "independent" and now i hate the universe < 1280497085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: if we consider T the set of truths in some theory: < 1280497090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*theory, < 1280497112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and P the set of (statement,proof_text)s in the theory < 1280497113 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then < 1280497131 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My god, old computers were awesome. < 1280497134 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :truebutunprovable(x) := x in T /\ ~(exists p such that (x,p) in P) < 1280497153 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :independent(x) := x not in T /\ ~x not in T (ergo T with added axiom of x or ~x are both consistent) < 1280497188 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have an axiom system z. say x is true but unprovable in z. then z+!x is consistent, even though x is true. therefore i hate the universe < 1280497220 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you are so weird < 1280497225 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: because you do prolog < 1280497228 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: well true but unprovable is of course terribly confusing. < 1280497232 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just had to get that out in the open < 1280497236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: i do prolog? < 1280497240 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280497253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: what prolog in particular have I done to make you say that? < 1280497264 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i don't know < 1280497267 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just whatever prolog < 1280497276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you even know i do prolog < 1280497282 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i only do it as a total newbie btw < 1280497291 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Look, a 2160-bit memory module: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercury_memory.jpg < 1280497307 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-10-142.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280497310 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's 2160 bits as in total capacity, not bus width or anything else.) < 1280497322 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is incredibly cool. < 1280497338 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How big is it? < 1280497339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Please Do Not Touch" < 1280497343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope that was on the original computer. < 1280497380 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: The article says that the whole 1000-word memory subsystem (7 of those units) had its own walk-in room, so presumably not especially small. < 1280497388 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, it's a mercury delay line. < 1280497402 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: i know you do prolog because idk < 1280497413 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Well, I don't really do it any more. :P < 1280497417 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: look up "memory plane" < 1280497432 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is very happy that his wild guess as to the technical name was correct
< 1280497438 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmRtNmnRdNI < 1280497458 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Pah, Edison. < 1280497463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That UNIVAC tank is sequential-access, of course. < 1280497515 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or random-access if you don't mind a bit of waiting, but..) < 1280497546 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could use that for pipes, come to think if it. < 1280497591 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because you want your conceptual pipes involve real pipes somewhere? < 1280497601 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1280497605 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's not a pipe unless fluids are involved." < 1280497620 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even better if it uses ball bearings < 1280497641 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just for transmission of oscillations, of course. < 1280497667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :list.h:16:29: warning: __VA_ARGS__ can only appear in the expansion of a C99 variadic macro < 1280497671 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, lah-de-dah. < 1280497697 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :love the word "variadic", it sounds so scientific-y. < 1280497706 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, we're using the same version and code, aren't we? < 1280497715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Not code. < 1280497717 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fiddlin'. < 1280497721 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define tl_(d,h,...) __VA_ARGS__ < 1280497731 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How is that NOT a variadic macro, GNU Stupid Crapshoot < 1280497748 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1280497751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in my rem line < 1280497751 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1280497765 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: how about p-adic < 1280497769 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does that sounds sciency < 1280497778 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: boycott gcc < 1280497783 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: wat < 1280497786 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: ironically, it sounds less so < 1280497793 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't ... boycott a project < 1280497796 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sounds totally made up < 1280497801 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: wanna bet < 1280497804 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1280497806 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*yes. < 1280497811 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am boycotting it right now < 1280497834 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if everyone boycotts gcc they will starve... for attention < 1280497844 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, why boycott GCC? < 1280497877 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC is a HACK!!! < 1280497887 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and stuff < 1280497896 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU Stupid Crapshoot < 1280497982 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is actually *wrong* with it/ < 1280497994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc is crap but Quadrescence has gone crazy < 1280497998 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, other than the fact that its assembler is stupid. < 1280498010 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: terrible, huge, huge code (over 100,000 lines -- how many bugs do you want to bet are in there); < 1280498019 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply inferior to well-designed compilers like pcc and clang < 1280498030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a huge crapshoot from the 80s < 1280498046 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, is there anything mainstream that you *don't* think is crap? < 1280498047 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cpp -std=c99 -Wall -pedantic -undef -nostdinc -P" < 1280498049 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpp the interpreter! < 1280498056 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes; but note that my opinion on gcc is not unusual < 1280498061 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i think you'll find most competent people share it < 1280498069 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theo de raat does, in case you care about him < 1280498073 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i am fascinated by how the mainstream attracts crap and vice versa < 1280498075 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeBSD, too, want to move away from gcc < 1280498090 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not just for licensing reasons. < 1280498096 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the bsds would rather not have gpl'ed stuff in their base < 1280498098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc needs to die a painful death. but meh. < 1280498099 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :llvm? < 1280498099 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: indeed < 1280498103 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: but they have technical reasons too < 1280498108 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: clang is a C compiler for LLVM. < 1280498109 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: granted < 1280498111 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mentioned clang. < 1280498122 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280498124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, so it's my conditional that's failing. < 1280498156 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, denouncing everything as crap gets boring after a while. < 1280498183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You criticise a lot of things! Therefore you should stop making criticisms because I believe excess criticisms make future ones incorrect." < 1280498200 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would you have told Sturgeon to stop being such a pessimist? < 1280498247 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I just wish you didn't do it so much. < 1280498250 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But listen, my opinion on gcc is nothing radical. < 1280498255 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you actually studied it you would agree. < 1280498285 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does it actually do wrong? < 1280498319 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's horribly architectured. The code is written badly and it is very, very long with lots of unchecked possibilities for bugs. It's crap; what the heck do I need to elaborate on? < 1280498339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's coded badly, it's buggy, it's huge, it's slow, it gives useless error messages, and it doesn't optimise well at all. < 1280498350 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you hit the nail on the head < 1280498353 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buggy huge slow < 1280498354 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These flaws are not present in other compilers like pcc and clang. < 1280498362 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gunked up with stallman's foot debris < 1280498366 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Age is the only excuse; and gcc has had plenty of time to get into this century. < 1280498377 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet the market determines TRUTH and pcc and clang are MARKET FAILURES!!1! < 1280498378 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even fully c99 compliant < 1280498382 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is pretty sad < 1280498383 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The best thing it could do with its time is to die quietly. < 1280498392 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1999, 11.5 years to get it done < 1280498408 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: that won't happen though < 1280498410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: but dude, C99 is, like, impossible. < 1280498415 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has complex numbers and shit. < 1280498421 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuk < 1280498424 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always forget about that < 1280498429 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, why are complexes impossible? < 1280498432 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: my sentiment exactly < 1280498434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're complex, dude. < 1280498443 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And what has he done with said knowledge? I'm waiting to see the list of OSS projects he's working on." -- reddit moron about the guy who got a bachelor's at 14 < 1280498465 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not impossible, out of place. What part of "systems construction language" does C99 not understand? < 1280498475 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Disconnected by services < 1280498477 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was joking wrt complexes. < 1280498485 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mind having complex numbers in the language although C99 did do them terribly. < 1280498495 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@nat-wireless-guest-reg-158-122.bu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280498510 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1280498548 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1280498561 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@92.233.174.117 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280498563 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: c99 did a lot terribly to be honest. Like booleans are a god damn hack < 1280498576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280498577 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's a very basic thing, but still < 1280498582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the committee are retards < 1280498594 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION has come to the conclusion that his internet connection is nondeterministic.
< 1280498603 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C89 is pretty ok. It is not the best by today's standards but It's The Best We Got < 1280498633 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "And what has he done..." <-- wow, i find that surprisingly offensive in a way i cannot readily describe < 1280498647 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the quote, not alise < 1280498667 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280498675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a bunch of people like that on reddit < 1280498681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: really? try downloading from all sites at once < 1280498682 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, they don't care about you unless you work on FOSS. < 1280498693 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the worst thing about FOSS is everyone who likes FOSS. < 1280498696 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9c is awesome < 1280498704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: yes, indeed < 1280498713 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8c < 1280498715 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1280498716 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i was using conventional compilers to illustrate my point < 1280498725 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: 2c is the manpage :P < 1280498810 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1280498879 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1280498886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here any good at cpp? < 1280498889 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey maybe? < 1280498906 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"good" is not the word I'd use. I wrote macros that pasted tokens together once! < 1280498916 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's wrong? < 1280498968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even sure. < 1280499012 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1067011.txt?key=bxdsdyraapk8c9zshrrwcw < 1280499017 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see the last two lines, compare their outputs < 1280499096 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you trying to do? < 1280499124 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The second line should yield true,c,true,d,false,nil,nil. < 1280499131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how the first line works but the second doesn't. < 1280499165 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nor do I. < 1280499205 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's because cpp keeps track of what was typed in and what was expanded < 1280499207 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so as not to recursively expand < 1280499210 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, whyyyy < 1280499250 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose i should try this < 1280499275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, wait, yeah, cpp doesn't recursively expand < 1280499277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you're grumpy like me when you don't use caps < 1280499279 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: yeah < 1280499283 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: which makes my conditionals not work < 1280499287 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back to the drawing board for them < 1280499293 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the causality might be backwards there re caps, but yes. < 1280499302 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1280499307 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screw you, shift key < 1280499313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :causality doesn't exist don't you know < 1280499330 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :screw you, alise < 1280499337 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1280499353 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Screw you! I want my fucking A following B!" < 1280499397 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe define tltl(x,y,...) to do it? you should only need a fixed number of tl's in any tc proof < 1280499414 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not ANY tc proof. you know what i mean < 1280499487 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: i'm thinking for things like map < 1280499491 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would suggest power < 1280499623 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but... recursion is out, it looks like. < 1280499701 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I gathered that. But I have no recursion, even! < 1280499713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact this restriction of cpp is the stupidest thing ever. I can think of no reason for it. < 1280499737 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recently, like in the past few months, cygwin wants to install three dozen new packages every time I upgrade. Including 'bc' and 'ed' and 'libglitz'. The deps for something I have installed are clearly hosed. < 1280499757 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I suppose you aren't fond of Linux either. < 1280499764 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: um, well. it's nice when you don't have to worry about your macros not terminating < 1280499794 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I use it, but ... no. Linus is one of my heroes, he's a great guy. But Linux is another entry in the Unix tradition. And it has some braindamage (usually by people other than Linus). < 1280499814 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: at expense of fucked up, barely explainable behaviour ... who writes macros complex enough that they'd recurse without this anyway? I mean, what? < 1280499822 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you don't like the Unix tradition? < 1280499823 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpp is instant anyway, if it takes more than a second on normal macros you'd know you have a loop. < 1280499843 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't. The original Unix was cool, and Plan 9, the successor to Unix by the same people, is genius; but modern Unix is, well, a crapshoot. < 1280499858 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...Why? < 1280499860 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: hell, I dunno. who writes normal C code that relies on wrapping around at the bit size? ask Gregor. < 1280499860 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, I'm not merely a malcontent; I just took a good, long, hard look at things and regret it a bit because I'm basically an outcast now. < 1280499883 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Complexity, bugginess, non-orthogonality, unpredictability, lack of unified coherent interface to anything (Plan 9 rectifies this), years of historical cruft... < 1280499893 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...makes a decent UI impossible... < 1280499900 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: anyone who writes a BF interpreter? :P < 1280499902 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: You've read the Worse is Better essay(s), I take it? < 1280499908 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I have. < 1280499915 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1280499916 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't believe modern Unix follows Worse is Better. < 1280499921 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It follows Better is Worse. < 1280499971 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm straying dangerously into my old zealot turf here; so I'll quiet down about it for a bit. Probably. < 1280499994 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i will meditate on BiW. i probably know what you mean. < 1280500076 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Modern Unix is "MIT-style code" -- overcomplicated error-checking monstrosities -- over a New Jersey base; so it's bloated but in the end it fails hard. < 1280500094 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will try not to get angry over things that work adequately for my purposes. < 1280500098 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a "perfect" implementation of a quick-and-dirty philosophy, it just doesn't work ... it's not very explainable. Better is Worse. You know what i mean. < 1280500112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I'm not angry. I just don't like it. Linux does make me angry, though; you know, when it doesn't work, which is often. < 1280500162 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take the approach of giving up easily. < 1280500175 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. I think I've been BiW'ed silly working with Python, actually. < 1280500198 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dislike Python but tend to bury that anger because it's useful to glue shit together on Unix. < 1280500201 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're going to start with naff, then get it RIGHT! < 1280500208 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It /is/ terribly naff. < 1280500217 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naff is a very good way to describe a lot of things in today's computing world. < 1280500230 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it [...], but... do you really want to? < 1280500235 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So what was it like in The Golden Age, then? < 1280500251 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Didn't ever been none Golden Age. Always been shit. Probably always will be. < 1280500282 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So why complain that it's shit all the time, then? < 1280500296 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have no non-shit against which to compare. < 1280500322 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there is a distinction between beauty and efficacy. Things that "get the job done" tend to be ugly. And ugly things tend to work badly *in the long run*. But most people don't have a significant amount of foresight, and they will defend the ugly things that "get the job done" tooth and nail. In business, especially. < 1280500325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do but it's all ideas, nothing concrete. However, there are shards of perfection present in many things that as a whole are not; and together they form a fucked-up collage that nevertheless represents something perfect, if you can make the glue stick. < 1280500391 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, when I don't think about this shit I'm positive enough. < 1280500423 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what DMM's 20 questions poll will end with.
< 1280500442 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I never had cpressey down as the grumpy cynic everything-sucks type. < 1280500459 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always assumed he'd be the happy-camper-on-LSD-ah-it-sucks-so-what-i-just-make-cool-stuff type. < 1280500545 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would be that if it weren't for the LSD, cool stuff and the camping. And the happy. < 1280500565 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the cool stuff? < 1280500608 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Second on the list. < 1280500655 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Hm. Well, ... < 1280500655 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yeah. < 1280500675 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've gone back and forth during my life, actually. < 1280500705 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I take it most of your esolang work was done in the happy-camper phase :-P < 1280500710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, that means there's hope for me to rebound yet. < 1280500711 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooray. < 1280500731 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other news, I have decided to break into my friend's house and steal his father's old BBC Micro. < 1280500738 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've had periods where I've been extremely depressed about how much everything sucks, and I've had periods where I've not cared at all and was just elated that the universe was so weird. < 1280500745 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, I have only a vague idea where he lives. < 1280500765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Hell, I don't get depressed about it. It's just fucking computers. Or do you mean /everything/ everything? < 1280500778 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, most esolang work occurs during the latter half of that cycle. < 1280500793 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, not just computers. Everything. Systems. < 1280500796 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you certain you're not bipolar? :P < 1280500822 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, that was nasty. < 1280500887 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know which part of Edinburgh his flat is in and I know that it's above a Chinese restaurant. < 1280500900 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I may have to break into a lot of houses. < 1280501043 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's in the part of Scotland where it usually rains. Oh, and it's next to a DFS with a sale on; you can't miss it." < 1280501072 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague idea as to the name of the Chinese restaraunt. < 1280501083 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a/arau/aura/ < 1280501087 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/a/s/ < 1280501092 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recursive sed! < 1280501234 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.dangermouse.net/media/memento.html < 1280501241 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :David Morgan-Mar watches Memento for the first time. Backwards. < 1280501249 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of why CPP won't recursively expand macros, it's because it's forbidden to: "If the name of the macro being replaced is found during this scan [after the first round of substitution] of the replacement list -- it is not replaced. Furthermore, if any nested replacements encounter the name of the macro being replaced, it is not replaced. These nonreplaced macro name preprocessing tokens are no longer available for further replacement even if they are lat < 1280501250 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er (re)examined in contexts in which that macro name preprocessing token would otherwise have been replaced." < 1280501256 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yes. < 1280501259 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a stupid restriction. < 1280501283 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you wouldn't want to have scary LOOPS in the preprocessor. < 1280501283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, btw you said something about cpp and TC. Got anywhere with that? < 1280501296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it is possibly TC with recursive includes or such < 1280501311 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm "working on it". < 1280501312 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I can't be certain, I suppose, but I strongly doubt it. Seems to be tied much more strongly to what's happening in my world and how I look at it. < 1280501314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, ah < 1280501318 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do we hate M4 as well? < 1280501321 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to define lists; run into a roadblock but I think I can fix it. < 1280501327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, your way doesn't include recursive includes? < 1280501327 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Who /doesn't/? < 1280501333 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hm? < 1280501339 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's cool in a theoretical way. < 1280501349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I try and stay positive. :P < 1280501351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, do you do recursive includes or not when making it TC? < 1280501357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or proving it rather < 1280501381 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I will, yes. < 1280501386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't got a proof yet. < 1280501388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a strong hunch. < 1280501480 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So wait, what preprocessors *do* we like? < 1280501508 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: None? Preprocessors are a pretty pointless concept :-P < 1280501516 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M4 is more a template language from hell. < 1280501519 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, cpp works fine for C. < 1280501529 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, what macro systems do we like? < 1280501544 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still hold that M4 is a good esolang. < 1280501579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, what about lisp macros. Not really pre-processor as such thoughh < 1280501582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though* < 1280501648 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M4 is a good esolang, not a good lang. < 1280501653 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, they're preprocessing done right. < 1280501660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What Phantom_Hoover said < 1280501662 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*said. < 1280501663 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :M4+dc < 1280501670 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, OMG. < 1280501683 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you disable indentation in cpp mode? < 1280501686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1280501687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in cc-mode < 1280501687 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surprsed I haven't seen something esosomething implemented in that combo < 1280501687 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in emacs < 1280501689 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoindent < 1280501697 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use vim? < 1280501699 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when I press ( < 1280501712 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DISCLAIMER: I do not particularly like vim. < 1280501785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just M-x fundamental-mode. :p < 1280501864 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But keeping syntax highlighting. Some electric thing. < 1280501870 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: maybe i'll look LATER < 1280501905 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster, they're preprocessing done right. <-- not a separate pre-processor though. Runs in the compiler iirc < 1280501905 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you could just set c-basic-offset to 0. < 1280501907 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION always wonders why Lisp did things right then everyone went and got it wrong for the next few decades.
< 1280501914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the AST I think < 1280501916 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It could still line up things, I guess.) < 1280501930 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, 6:dozen/2 < 1280501937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, ?? < 1280501950 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 to half a dozen? < 1280501979 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: WANT TO KNOW WHY? < 1280501995 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why what? < 1280502004 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to know why, whatever it is. < 1280502011 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHANTOM WHY LISP DID THINGS RIGHT < 1280502015 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :THEN ----------> WRONG < 1280502037 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm < 1280502051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover, and context? < 1280502070 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : on the AST I think ;; no ast, just the concrete tree; the lists < 1280502081 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, you know Lisp, right? < 1280502084 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PHANTOM_HOOVER: READ THE ABOVE LINK, AFTER, READ http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/04/lisp-is-not-acceptable-lisp.html < 1280502104 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh that article < 1280502105 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/bipolar.htm < 1280502106 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's shit < 1280502123 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1280502127 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is actually very good < 1280502129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just the qi guy whining about how programmers are so misunderstood then giving it the label "bipolar" and thereby furthering the continued uselessness of psychological terminology. < 1280502131 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And very accurate < 1280502145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's shit and if you believe it you're another lisp elitist that's full of themselves < 1280502147 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NO it is good and accurate < 1280502154 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the yegge article is good however. < 1280502157 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Qi sucks though < 1280502160 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must say that < 1280502166 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the syntax is terrible < 1280502166 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What? It's funny! < 1280502169 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's "qi"? < 1280502170 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(((BLA BLA BLA < 1280502172 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ----------------------------------- < 1280502175 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey, quiz show. < 1280502178 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bLA BLA BLA))) < 1280502180 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you fail < 1280502182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: a powerful type system thing grafted onto common lisp < 1280502183 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has Stephen Fry. < 1280502188 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: it has a turing complete type system without dependent typing < 1280502189 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I grasped that. < 1280502195 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is hilariously fuck-uppedly pointless < 1280502199 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1280502201 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what alise said < 1280502216 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: but really, that article is pretty accurate. Maybe not for all lisp programmers < 1280502221 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a good number of them < 1280502239 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember the last time I've seen a complete, good, full piece of working lisp < 1280502276 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I object to the way it is written and the way the author perceives the immense genius of Lispers. I also dislike the blatant misuse of the term "bipolar", which is unacceptable. < 1280502291 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The author is also a bad writer. < 1280502292 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the use of bipolar is unacceptable < 1280502297 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the writing was appropriate < 1280502308 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise is in denial < 1280502314 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise has bipolar < 1280502317 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ack, it's Lisp with pattern matching. < 1280502319 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go take your HALDOL alise < 1280502324 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: no, it's more than that < 1280502335 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence, that's probably terribly offensive. < 1280502335 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a whole different game < 1280502336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: I just sort of wish he'd render "it's" or "let's" properly at least once. < 1280502361 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: what, saying someone has a medical condition < 1280502370 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then recommending taking an anti-psychotic medication < 1280502384 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly i do not think saying someone has a medical condition is an insult < 1280502392 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HEY ALISE YOU HAVE THE COMMON COLD < 1280502396 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GO TAKE COUGH SYRUP < 1280502399 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1280502434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quadrescence: Considering that I'm wrongly in an institution and they tried to push meds on me... < 1280502441 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I *died* of the common cold! < 1280502446 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd say that if I were the kind of person to get offended by that, I'd rip your eyeballs out. < 1280502450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not, however. < 1280502463 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can't rip eyeballs over the internet. < 1280502465 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YET < 1280502507 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: you just think you're wrongly in an institution < 1280502511 0 :Quadrescence!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's due to the schizophrenia < 1280502567 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it's due to my early experiments with mind control. < 1280502575 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just ask cpressey or oerjan. < 1280502606 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jdijdijidjdijeijd ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo :D~ < 1280502684 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you can see, nooga was another early test case. < 1280502774 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280502795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I've used it as a variable occasionally. Don't ask why < 1280502803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comex: I'm afraid I'll have to ask why < 1280502809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it should be a safe question in /this/ channel < 1280502902 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Used what as a variable? < 1280502943 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_ < 1280503099 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is Qi a TC type system as in, "write a program in this DSL which implements the type checker you want"? < 1280503180 0 :distant_figure!~nine@clam.leg.uct.ac.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1280503186 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: sort of. < 1280503190 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: a bit more infrastructure than that. < 1280503252 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Wikileaks To Leak 5000 Open Source Java Projects With All That Private/Final Bullshit Removed" --Steve Yegge < 1280503261 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[According to the Wikileaks press release, millions of Java source files have been run through a Perl script that removes all 'final' keywords except those required for hacking around the 15-year-old Java language's "fucking embarrassing lack of closures."]] < 1280503268 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only thing I /really/ don't like about LISP (and Scheme) is destructive update. < 1280503278 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Longtime Java programmer Ronnie Lloyd of Austin, TX is offended by the thought of people instantiating his private classes. "It's just common sense," said Lloyd, who is 37. "If I buy you a house and put the title in your name, but I mark some of the doors 'Employees Only', then you're not allowed to open those doors, even though it's your house. Because it's really my house, even though I gave it to you to live in."]] < 1280503285 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: So clearly we need purely functional Lisp. < 1280503290 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's Lisp. Has been for years. Not LISP :P < 1280503313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I have quite an interesting view about final, actually < 1280503313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh. Pretend I'm shouting! < 1280503331 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like to read the old papers < 1280503336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to think it was an awful idea; nowadays, I'm beginning to conclude that it's correct on anything which isn't specced to be extend-safe < 1280503338 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1280503339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Next article: Eclipse Sits On Man's Couch, Breaks It < 1280503339 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :New Hampshire programmer Freddie Cardenas, 17, describes the incident: "We invited Eclipse over for dinner and drinks. Eclipse sat down on our new couch and there was this loud crack and it broke in half. Those timbers had snapped like fuckin' matchsticks. Then my mom started crying, and Eclipse started crying, and I ran and hid in my bedroom." Read more]] < 1280503343 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yegge is an awesome writer. < 1280503404 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Maybe your destiny is to create a purely-functional Lisp that doesn't suck. < 1280503425 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Pixley is a purely-functional Lisp that's not nearly big enough to suck < 1280503429 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't get that thing. < 1280503444 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that this is because I avoid Java like the plague. < 1280503448 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People will complain about the lack of, oh, I don't know. Numbers? though. < 1280503467 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: It sucks. :P < 1280503481 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Maybe it'll make more sense if you read it: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2010/07/wikileaks-to-leak-5000-open-source-java.html < 1280503486 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But things like pattern-matching don't seem very nice in Lisp... < 1280503512 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: It can implement itself in a couple of hundred lines of code! How can it suck! What else would you possibly use a Lisp for! < 1280503529 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aren't questions which end in exclamation points obnoxious! < 1280503539 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: link me to pixley again? < 1280503543 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I am, but I never poke around inside Java projets. < 1280503544 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280503549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, you can implement a subset of scheme in itself in like 50 lines < 1280503550 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/et/ect/ < 1280503555 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/pixley/doc/website_pixley.html < 1280503557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I am? < 1280503568 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am reading Yegge's blog post < 1280503583 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My implementation of Pixley in Pixley is 140 lines. < 1280503620 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"They have no right to do this. Open Source does not mean the source is somehow 'open'." what? < 1280503621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I've become a bit of an infix whore, tbh. < 1280503628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: hurr i don't get blatant satire hurr < 1280503637 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the precise meanings of each of these forms, please refer to the Revised5 Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme. < 1280503649 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: you mean the Revised Revised Revised Revised Revised Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme. < 1280503681 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ⁵ doesn't indicate such? < 1280503712 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOT SUFFICIENTLY < 1280503744 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I don't get what it's satirising. < 1280503749 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: nothing much < 1280503752 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Surely Java people aren't really like this. < 1280503757 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/icbins/icbins.tar.gz Scheme-subset-sideset self-compiler and interpreter in 10 pages < 1280503766 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: http://wry.me/~darius/hacks/ichbins.tar.gz the beautiful 6-page version with just the compiler < 1280503768 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compiler to C that is < 1280503811 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm pretty sure I like infix too much to ever truly like a "traditional" Lisp, though. < 1280503868 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you're in Cupertino? < 1280503920 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cupertino lol < 1280503926 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm against Lisp compilers for some reason < 1280503927 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just read that < 1280503930 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I was at the time < 1280503938 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm near Chicago < 1280503947 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: You move around a lot. < 1280503947 0 :Flonk_!~chatzilla@80-123-37-153.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1280503947 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like you were working for apple? < 1280503954 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: I doubt that highly. < 1280503994 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Java programmers are similar to that article. < 1280503997 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Less blatant about it, of course. < 1280504005 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::O < 1280504023 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did work experience in a computing department that used primarily Java, < 1280504038 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never saw a line of their source, though. < 1280504056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: my objection to someone removing all the final and private from my code is "now you can't tell what can be overriden/called without being randomly breaking-changed, and what can be" < 1280504078 0 :Mathnerd314_!~mathnerd3@nat-wireless-guest-reg-158-122.bu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1280504079 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1280504079 0 :Flonk_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Flonk < 1280504093 0 :Mathnerd314_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Mathnerd314 < 1280504114 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you? A Java programmer? < 1280504133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I teach Java for a living < 1280504136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he teaches java < 1280504140 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to poor, innocent souls < 1280504144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's a really bad language to teach people as their first language < 1280504144 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*gasp* < 1280504145 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then harvests what's left of their brains < 1280504162 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1280504164 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but hey, I'm being paid to teach that rather than something saner < 1280504169 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, if my school is anything to judge by, he's a bit skinny.. < 1280504169 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're worse than Hitler then < 1280504173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hopefully it'll increase the average quality of Java amongst graduates < 1280504179 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :java should die < 1280504187 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with C++ < 1280504191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wat < 1280504211 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is an order of magnitude worse than Java. < 1280504215 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least. < 1280504223 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the top computing class *two* people could program at all well. < 1280504223 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1280504230 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even on their 4th attempt. < 1280504244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: the students here are on average rather better than that < 1280504245 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr, how do you typeset the proper prime character in TeX? $\prime$ looks weird < 1280504247 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, have I not bitched about this at you? < 1280504248 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a height, like 5'4" < 1280504257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although you still get several who just do not get programming, and a few more who can program but don't get OO < 1280504260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: alise, if my school is anything to judge by, he's a bit skinny.. < 1280504263 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: oh i see < 1280504268 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i never said he ate them! < 1280504269 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although e does < 1280504271 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*he does < 1280504276 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :He eats their *brains*. < 1280504330 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what do you think of JS as a first language? < 1280504348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not nearly as bad as Java < 1280504355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I think it's a bit large for use as a teaching language < 1280504356 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$^\prime$ is... close... < 1280504359 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :students sould learn: C, then ruby, then haskell < 1280504363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and object.prototype, etc, is likely to be confusing < 1280504370 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, JS on IE 5 for the Mac? < 1280504378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? < 1280504390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although I hear mac-IE is a lot saner than windows-IE) < 1280504395 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposedly it had better debugging. < 1280504395 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, 6$'$1$''$ does it about right. < 1280504448 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my lord, Minion is beautiful < 1280504454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just need something to typeset in it... < 1280504462 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minion? < 1280504507 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :font? < 1280504510 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Evidently you have a sense used only for being weird about typography. < 1280504534 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nooga: typeface < 1280504545 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you should see actual typophiles. < 1280504549 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they live every moment for it. < 1280504556 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, AAAAA < 1280504557 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just appreciate nice typefaces. < 1280504574 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I share a world with people who are even more obsessed with typography than you‽ < 1280504583 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not obsessed. Jeez. < 1280504594 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have an interest, like you probably do about many things < 1280504596 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*things. < 1280504600 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minion looks no different to most other fonts! < 1280504679 0 :BeholdMyGlory!~behold@unaffiliated/beholdmyglory JOIN :#esoteric < 1280504778 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$26 for a font? < 1280504826 0 :Flonk!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Id never pay money for a font D: < 1280504827 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: this reminds me, I've been meaning to ask something < 1280504834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are good monotyped fonts that are standard on the Mac? < 1280504845 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What would be a good learning language? Lua? < 1280504858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Lua wouldn't be bad, actually < 1280504888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose it depends on what field you're going into; they taught electronic engineers (my first degree) asm and C simultaneously first, which worked well < 1280504895 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Does this help a bit? http://www.ampsoft.net/webdesign-l/WindowsMacFonts.html < 1280504926 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Phantom_Hoover: I teach Java for a living" <<< just general java or something more specific using java? < 1280504932 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i guess you teach java if you say you teach java < 1280504933 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Establishes a lower bound at Courier New + Lucida Console :/ < 1280504933 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1280504956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: when teaching, you don't have much of a chance to do anything particularly specific < 1280504996 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have to say I'm not *so* down on Java as a production language. Its culture is much worse than the language itself. < 1280505003 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is it soul-crushing? < 1280505011 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: not really, it's mostly reflex < 1280505027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and Java is not an awful language, although it's a bad first language, and tends to be overengineered < 1280505035 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Semicolon. Semicolon. Semicolon. < 1280505053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :semicolons aren't soul-crushing < 1280505054 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just syntax < 1280505070 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, just use speech synth. < 1280505073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless syntax is deliberately obstructive (/me glares at most esolangs), it's normally pretty much irrelevant < 1280505098 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm referring to students' inability to remember them. < 1280505116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :students tend to be quite good with boilerplate < 1280505120 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially when using NetBeans < 1280505172 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK. < 1280505183 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" oklopol: when teaching, you don't have much of a chance to do anything particularly specific" <<< it was surprising to me that a phd student was teaching a basic course, but i guess they need to harvest everyone for those < 1280505189 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So is your soul a bit squashed? < 1280505233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: actually, it's not that surprising; basic courses are all that they can trust mere phd students on < 1280505241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most courses need actual lecturers < 1280505265 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i realized that right after saying that < 1280505317 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phd students don't teach courses often here, but if they do it's usually a course they actually ask permission to give (i know exactly one instance of this) < 1280505325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then, I'm not the main teacher, just take tutorials and do marking < 1280505327 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means they are everything but basic courses < 1280505341 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ohh < 1280505358 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's almost exclusively done by phd ppl here < 1280505365 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything but lecturing < 1280505401 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the default one on the mac is good < 1280505403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Monaco, the old default < 1280505406 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the name of the new default < 1280505414 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, it's names I need to know < 1280505427 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to work around a bug with jettyplay, where it sometimes chooses a ridiculously inappropriate font < 1280505432 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: firstly, Minion is a typeface, not a font; secondly, $26 is damn cheap for a font. Besides, it comes with Adobe Reader. < 1280505441 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably using it violates the license, but who gives a shit apart from ais523? < 1280505456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and obviously it needs a monotype one because ttyrecs assume monotype < 1280505462 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally, fuck no it does not look the same as other fonts. < 1280505469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sec < 1280505482 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To my untrained eye it doesn't look special.. < 1280505514 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Menlo; it's a modified DejaVu Sans Mono < 1280505521 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-15-239.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280505522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1280505528 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: only on 10.6 and above < 1280505530 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fallback to Monaco < 1280505530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, yay DVSM) < 1280505534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, that's what I plan to do < 1280505535 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280505551 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-15-239.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280505562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thank < 1280505564 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*thanks < 1280505564 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: well, to most people all typefaces look the same. < 1280505577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, people will notice that a well-typeset book is easy to read. the more discerning will note that it looks good. < 1280505579 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not *that* untrained. < 1280505582 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly it's subconscious. < 1280505587 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: can you tell Garamond from Baskerville? < 1280505594 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can tell them apart, to some extent (although Arial/Helvetica normally needs a blatantly different letter like the R to tell); normally I don't care, though < 1280505598 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what either looks like. < 1280505607 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend not to spend time typesetting. < 1280505655 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose you hate TNR, BtW. < 1280505662 0 :derdon!~quassel@p5B3E55BF.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280505664 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are all heretics < 1280505669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: TNR? < 1280505677 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Times New Roman. < 1280505692 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol, yes, non-monospace is an offence in the eyes of oklo. < 1280505709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: In its common Windows incarnation, yes; and by now everyone's eyes are dulled to it, and nothing interesting is ever set in it. < 1280505713 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, just doing my job < 1280505715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: When it was designed, it was great. < 1280505719 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1280505738 0 :MigoMipo_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MigoMipo < 1280505749 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280505767 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Times New Roman was probably released a bit early < 1280505772 0 :MigoMipo!~John@84-217-15-239.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280505772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks awful at 640x480 resolution < 1280505783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was standard for Windows 3.1, where it first became popular < 1280505790 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: excuse me, Times New Roman was released in 1931. :-) < 1280505797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: well, of course < 1280505797 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows' font of it is and always has been terrible. < 1280505800 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the Microsoft versoin < 1280505802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*version < 1280505816 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1280505832 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X's "Times" font is much better. < 1280505840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's still fundamentally bland, though; you can't really do anything about that. < 1280505855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bland isn't bad for the default font everyone uses for everything < 1280505863 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch! < 1280505872 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but dammit, Word could default to Palatino or something. < 1280505881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, I had a sudden flashback to that feature of old versions of Word which let you put animated sparkly shapes behind all the text you wrote < 1280505882 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch? < 1280505886 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hahahahaha. < 1280505899 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, has anyone else read the GNU standardisation info page? < 1280505912 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, and I hope never to. < 1280505928 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, but it's delightfully obnoxious. < 1280506000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this of the same standard as the Enigma video trailer? < 1280506018 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least they've actually uploaded it to YouTube now and embedded it, rather than providing a .flv download) < 1280506058 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? < 1280506082 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the exact link, but http://enigma-game.org is the homepage < 1280506090 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably a link to the trailer on there somewhere < 1280506097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is the worst advert I've ever seen pretty much < 1280506100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so bad it's hilarious < 1280506157 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, god, it is. < 1280506289 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"another breathtaking movie" < 1280506334 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nooo, they used the rubbish music! < 1280506336 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the NICE music! < 1280506342 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from, you know, all the other flaws < 1280506347 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously this is because open-source video-editing stuff sucks. < 1280506354 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: they can't legally use pentagonal dreams on the trailer < 1280506357 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or because a lot of open source people have no taste :-))) < 1280506359 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its licensing is screwed up < 1280506363 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i knoowwww < 1280506365 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not faaaair < 1280506388 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm amazed that the GNU zealots allowed them to use flash. < 1280506390 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtflol < 1280506414 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's the nice music, then? < 1280506501 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION hopes beyond hope it uses pentagonal waves.
< 1280506527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you have to download Enigma to get it; its licensing is, as I said, screwed up < 1280506530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's not /that/ amazing < 1280506538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Formerly, when a word or phrase in quotation marks came at the end of a phrase or clause that ended with a semicolon, the semicolon would be put before the trailing quotation mark; now, however, the magazine follows the universally observed style and puts the semicolon after the second quotation mark.]] < 1280506539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: there's a third music too, now < 1280506541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really want to know how that looked. < 1280506544 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I bet it sucks. < 1280506545 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No pentagonal waves? < 1280506548 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it IS amazing. :| < 1280506550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not as good as pentagonal dreams, but still pretty good < 1280506683 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so bad about the trailer < 1280506686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Musttypesetabookmusttypesetabook < 1280506697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: have you watched it? < 1280506701 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :half < 1280506717 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's far too long, and tries to explain various gameplay elements in too much detail < 1280506727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than actually saying what the game's about < 1280506733 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right it's a bad trailer, not a bad video < 1280506735 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry i'm an idiot < 1280506736 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much everything else in there has a calculated awkwardness to it too < 1280506743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's bad at being a trailer < 1280506757 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's not an awesome video, but it's not spectaculary awkward < 1280506786 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enigma contains different floors ! < 1280506794 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1280506817 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes that was rather spectacular < 1280506903 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and flaws. < 1280506968 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe I should set your wolfram proof xD < 1280506974 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that it's ugly (sry but it is a bit messy) < 1280507015 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we see a copy? < 1280507021 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: CLOJURE; CLOJURE FIXES ALL PROBLEMS! :p < 1280507023 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*:P < 1280507036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/solved.html < 1280507040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/TM23Proof.pdf is the pdf < 1280507051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: don't worry about it; it's not me who messed it up < 1280507064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you typeset it, didn't you? < 1280507067 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the wolfram people went and appended a bunch of inefficient mathematica to it for advertising purposes or something < 1280507068 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, scribbled it in openoffice < 1280507074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and redid all the formatting then for no apparent reason < 1280507081 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280507085 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have really bad taste, then < 1280507100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, my original wasn't brilliant, it was just sane default settings < 1280507115 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't even have proper quotes, the fonts for headings are wat, the spacing is just utterly crazy, especially around headings and quote blocks, quote blocks are pointlessly coloured and dedented... < 1280507129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: heh, default formatting is far superior to that < 1280507142 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: although really, why didn't you just use LaTeX? < 1280507187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking as I went < 1280507193 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and didn't know about LyX back then < 1280507196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, did you get opengenera to work nicely? I wrote up a somewhat more up-to-date guide for it. Also includes how to install the symbolics X fonts (otherwise small text like in Show Keyboard Layout output is unreadable). < 1280507197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, there's hardly any maths < 1280507202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured you might be interested in it < 1280507214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: symbolics x fonts? < 1280507222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could mostly have been done in VT100speak without issues < 1280507235 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, but the maths that is there is barf < 1280507246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, yes if you read the opengenera documentation it mentions that opengenera comes bundled with custom bitmap fonts, but will fall back to standard X fixed bitmap fonts < 1280507248 0 :tombom!tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1280507253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah. well, link me up. < 1280507254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the bundled ones are much nicer < 1280507260 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd prefer a proper symbolics emulator though! < 1280507260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, sec, will sprunge the file < 1280507266 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, same! < 1280507270 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which nobody has written yet, inexplicably! < 1280507294 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are mit cadr emulators, ti explorer emulators ... but no symbolics emulators < 1280507305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, pure text, would really need to be written up as LaTeX to make what is commands and what isn't clearer: http://sprunge.us/ZAWh < 1280507315 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll write it up as LaTeX! < 1280507316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, the section you want is near the end < 1280507318 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, a job. < 1280507323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, nah I have it partly done already < 1280507325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so no need < 1280507326 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I'll fix all your awful formatting and grammar /because I'm kind/. < 1280507329 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yeah, but not in Minion. < 1280507338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1280507347 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1280507349 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm kidding. < 1280507352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, GFDL < 1280507354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that ;P < 1280507368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, *phew* < 1280507373 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are joking wrt GFDL, right? < 1280507376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, of course < 1280507379 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thank god. < 1280507388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Invariant sections: EVERYTHING" < 1280507397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I'll probably go for CC-by-sa-nc-3.0. < 1280507410 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Update system with GUI tool, aptitude, apt-get or whatever you prefer. < 1280507416 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mrrf ... that's not how you're supposed to uppgrade < 1280507422 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: now you are surely joking < 1280507433 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, I meant update as in get security upgrades and such < 1280507441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, otherwise have fun with openssl bug and so on < 1280507450 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it with FOSS zealots who get all touchy when their work happens to be in a language whose interpreter happens to be a brain rather than a computer < 1280507452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes the versions on the cd are affected by that < 1280507476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: now you are surely joking <-- hm? why am I joking about CC-by-sa-nc? < 1280507493 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, i thought you included the no-changes clause. < 1280507500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, that would be nd! < 1280507504 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-nc isn't Free, however < 1280507531 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the dfsg it violates no discrimination against fields of endeavour. < 1280507541 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember a licence that is GPL incompatible because it says that the software must be used for good, not evil. < 1280507554 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also not OSI-open < 1280507556 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: JSON < 1280507563 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and I doubt the FSF considers it free either < 1280507567 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there, all your idols hate you < 1280507568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, well, symbolics probably isn't legal to use for commerical purposes without a license either < 1280507569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at all < 1280507578 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise! Hail! < 1280507581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can get an OpenGenera license. < 1280507581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :commercial* < 1280507586 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: hii < 1280507595 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thou art free! < 1280507597 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: by contacting sales@symbolics-dks.com < 1280507600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1280507602 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: i still have to go there, just not sleep. < 1280507603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1280507607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do they still exist? < 1280507612 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Symbolics? yes, as a shell company < 1280507615 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://symbolics-dks.com/ < 1280507619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dks? < 1280507621 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they sold symbolics.com, the oldest .com, to a squatter; shameful < 1280507625 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: David K Schmidt < 1280507627 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: FREEDOMNESSZOMG < 1280507628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280507629 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only person < 1280507636 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... They *sold symbolics.com*? < 1280507639 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yep < 1280507640 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How dare they? < 1280507641 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://symbolics.com/ < 1280507654 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like anyone even gives a shit, lol < 1280507660 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but dks probably got tons of money from it < 1280507710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: so are there any players that can play ripped blurays? < 1280507714 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can mplayer do it? < 1280507727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, anyway unsolved problems: give internet access to opengenera, write a custom keymap (if that is possible). Numpad-5 (without numlock) as a modifier key doesn't work very well on my laptop! < 1280507749 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another one: Figure out CL-HTTP. Upgrading to last version did not work < 1280507756 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Ripped and have the h.264 bitstream dumped to an MPEG4 container file? Have been able to for years. < 1280507769 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Just dd'd and decrypted? Recent mplayer can. < 1280507787 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i refer to a bunch of directories including < 1280507794 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1280507798 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clipinf/blah < 1280507800 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :jar/.../... < 1280507802 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Recent Bluray. < 1280507803 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :playlist/... < 1280507807 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bdjo/... < 1280507815 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stream/... < 1280507817 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in caps < 1280507817 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mplayer bluray:///path/to/bluray/disc/ < 1280507825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: right < 1280507840 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: now how can i take this and pack it up into a single file? can mplayer still play that at speed? < 1280507865 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: What, you mean make it into a single mkv or something? < 1280507869 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure thing. < 1280507912 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I... Think you'd be best using mplayer -dumpaudio and -dumpvideo and -dumpsubs to fetch out the bitstreams you want and then pass it into mkvmerge. < 1280507923 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Okay. Because, you see, things should be single files, dammit. < 1280507984 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I'm considering downloading the newest Star Trek flick, you see, just because... well, I'd like to see whether it's crap or decent (Sam Hughes thinks good) and I'd like to see the full splendour of 1080p; it's all CGIy so it should be the best quality a man can get. Or is that Gillette? < 1280507993 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually have the 1080p screen here, it's the TV downstairs, but oh well, a man can dream. < 1280508000 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it MUST BE A SINGLE FILE < 1280508044 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alternately, you could see if mplayer will play tarballs. :P < 1280508064 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Heh. You check that. :P < 1280508123 0 :relet!~thomas@c905DBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1280508322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NOVELS are like GREEK MYTHOLOGY put in a BULLET. < 1280508331 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I SAID CHECK IT SLAVE :| < 1280508392 0 :MigoMipo_!~John@84-217-2-145.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280508536 0 :Mathnerd314!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716] < 1280508538 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I would but I have nothing to put in the tar. < 1280508543 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1280509032 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"But Shatner wanted to share Nimoy's major role, and did not want a cameo,[62] despite his character's death in Star Trek Generations. He suggested the film canonize his novels where Kirk is resurrected [...]" < 1280509036 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHATNER: Give me my fucking film < 1280509067 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Put all the files in a filesystem image (that is a single file), and then loop-mount it every time you want to play? The complicatedest solutions are the best. < 1280509112 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: If a Blu-Ray rip says "x264", then the stream has been tampered with, yes? < 1280509131 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if it's Way Too Small. < 1280509155 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ViDEO CODEC..........: x264_L4.1 @ 13 Mbps < 1280509156 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : SOURCE...............: 1080p Blu-ray AVC TrueHD < 1280509157 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1280509158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: http://blognomic.com/archive/nothing_arbitrary_about_this/ < 1280509164 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you will probably like that proposal < 1280509173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as it's turned into a hideous counter, of sorts < 1280509197 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :blognomic irritates me for some reason < 1280509284 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RoV? < 1280509337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :repeat of vote < 1280509386 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1280509406 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Musttypesetabookmusttypesetabook <--- ok, now that's one urge I've seen but I've *never* felt or understood < 1280509423 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: That's because you haven't realised the BEAUTY. < 1280509434 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck, I don't even want to publish anything on the web any more because it'd look awful! < 1280509585 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: God mplayer is like the best thing ever. < 1280509590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ffmpeg + SUPPORT EVERYTHING < 1280509670 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess my eyeballbuds just aren't that refined. < 1280509915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ************************************************ < 1280509917 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : **** Your system is too SLOW to play this! **** < 1280509918 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ************************************************ < 1280510037 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's that a reference to? < 1280510065 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mplayer said it to me < 1280510078 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In one or two sentences, describe the process in which users are approved to become administrators on English Wikipedia." -- online Wikimedia Foundation job interview < 1280510082 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like an exam. :-D < 1280510151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: "A mess." < 1280510178 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: marry me < 1280510462 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@184-194-157-49.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280510509 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :way tempted to answer that soooo inappropriately < 1280510515 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: do so < 1280510595 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Failure on the other programmer's part to do anything resembling best practices caused me to stay up all night < 1280510607 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since there's no easy way to clear out static class's members < 1280510625 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"static class"? < 1280510627 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how do you play a video in a reduced size in mplayer? < 1280510672 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: I assume you either meant "a class's static members" or you are using an interesting language there < 1280510770 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280510853 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This code is a shining example of worst practices < 1280510871 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1280510894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a static class would just be a namespace, wouldn't it? < 1280510949 0 :Gregor-P!~AndChat@173-129-2-246.pools.spcsdns.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1280510954 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, what cide> < 1280510965 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This project I've been working on for a while < 1280510967 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/o/i/ < 1280510982 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgei? < 1280510986 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Indeed. < 1280510997 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/bran/much/ < 1280511032 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely you must be joking < 1280511065 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm seriously, and don't call me Shirley < 1280511074 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fails
< 1280511094 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280511182 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: I'm trying to minimise the function "size of self-implementation" over the scale lambda-calculus to Scheme. < 1280511212 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember someone wrote an article about tht < 1280511215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the range < 1280511440 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: -xy scaling-factor < 1280511442 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: C# has a thing called "static class"; it's a class with only static members in it, but you can sort-of enforce that by putting a "static" modifier in the class declaration itself. < 1280511472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: If using a video output that doesn't have scaling acceleration, you will also need to add -zoom < 1280511547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Bleh, way too slow. < 1280511592 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the "lowres" parameter (recommended by that "too-slow" message) of lavdopts, if you're decoding via libavcodec; it could help a lot more than just scaling the output, though it won't always work. < 1280511661 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Kind of an abuse of the word "class" IMO, but I guess that's C# for ya < 1280511675 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: is your website really generated with xslt? xD < 1280511687 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yarrrh, 'tis, matey! < 1280511697 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: have you ever noticed that xslt is insane? < 1280511715 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: YARRH, why thinks ye I be speaking like a PIRATE? < 1280511755 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Because you just illegally downloaded copyrighted material? < 1280511759 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I had to learn it for my job at the time anyway, I figured, this looks pretty insane, why not?) < 1280511779 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: What sort of job requires you to learn how to speak like a pirate? < 1280511786 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: pirate impersonator? < 1280511796 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine Disneyland has at least one < 1280511805 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION authors khs
< 1280511805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Maybe, or some sort of generic children's entertainer thing. < 1280511808 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Kludgy Hypertext System! < 1280511822 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ye have no idea how hard 'tis typing with a hook. < 1280511825 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately the name is a pain to type on QWERTY. < 1280511828 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kh hurts. < 1280511866 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: move your fingers to the vi position, then it works just fine < 1280511895 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but my fingers are never in the vi position < 1280511905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine are when I play NetHack < 1280511915 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kws is close, kludgy website system, but the kw combination is easy to mistype < 1280511926 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@h24-207-49-17.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280511936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about if you use Dvorak? < 1280511950 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the command in TeX for "repeat until \pageno is the same value as it was the previous time"? < 1280511953 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: The other option was "code it in PHP", because that's all my crap hosting service offers. And compared to that, xslt felt goof. < 1280511958 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*good. < 1280511961 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or goof, whatever. < 1280511998 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree PHP is full of some idiotic things, it is also slow, but I sometimes use PHP < 1280512016 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not only for serving files over HTTP < 1280512033 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've wanted to write a (insert nicer language here)->PHP compiler for some time for this reason. < 1280512052 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kms, maybe; kludgy markup system < 1280512069 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yes that would help a bit, but it doesn't make PHP run any more efficiently < 1280512077 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish there was a mediocre language like python but without the crap < 1280512097 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also sometimes use Forth. < 1280512109 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why do people always say "ah, is crap" as if it were immediately obvious < 1280512112 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Have you ever used Forth? < 1280512121 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English programming language is crap. < 1280512121 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes. < 1280512129 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't "mediocre like Python but without the crap". :-) < 1280512136 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: Because it ... is. < 1280512154 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have used Python as well, for writing a few card games, also in order to fix some things at Free Geek < 1280512155 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not necessarily obvious! < 1280512161 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I never implied it was < 1280512230 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me, Python embodies "Better is Worse", now that alise has brought that up. Sort-of "Mediocrity honed to a fine point" < 1280512249 0 :nooga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1280512253 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, cpressey woke up. < 1280512275 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep, pretty much. See, I'm capitalizing my sentences and everything! < 1280512285 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there is different opinion. Some people like Python and some don't, also some people like some things in Python or not < 1280512289 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I credit coffee for this. < 1280512325 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAY COFFEE < 1280512368 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YAY < 1280512397 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mailman is also written in Python, and I have a question I want to know if you know something about this, which is, which file contains the codes for formatting a text message as HTML document? There is something wrong with it that it removes lines with ">" at the beginning. And in September I will have to fix it < 1280512417 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, which files should I look in to figure out how to fix this problem? < 1280512445 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why isn't parsing easy? < 1280512454 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I suggest not using Mailman, < 1280512457 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Mailman. < 1280512462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it is, in most cases < 1280512469 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: orly? < 1280512478 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Free Geek is the one using Mailman, not me. < 1280512488 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: ah < 1280512490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: try Perl6 grammars, if you want to avoid yacc and lex < 1280512509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of note: Rakudo Star was released for "early adopters" today) < 1280512511 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it was up to me I would use the UNIX "mail" command. < 1280512528 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, the UNIX "mail" command is not installed on their computers. < 1280512541 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i'm not using perl 6 though < 1280512547 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: say, cyclexa; is it good at parsing? < 1280512550 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a proliferation of parser generators; I tried out Coco/R (not a horrible experience, but not entirely pleasant either) few months ago. < 1280512554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: it's what it's designed for < 1280512563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, because it isn't implemented yet < 1280512581 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you know what it looks like? < 1280512604 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Perl6 has a built-in grammar construct? Hm < 1280512607 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also SableCC was used in some course or other, and it wasn't completely horrible either.) < 1280512629 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried out CoCo/R a *long* time ago. The first ALPACA was coded using it. < 1280512652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Perl6? or Cyclexa? < 1280512661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cyclexa looks like regexps just with more punctuation marks < 1280512669 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: cyclexa < 1280512689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's unfortunately not particularly readable, as one of the minor design rules was to golf the thing < 1280512697 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps I'll add in sugar if I ever get around to implementing it < 1280512704 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, say you want to parse {word ...}, where ... is free text, nested; but also {word ... :a ... :b ...} to have the a and b parts separate, for arbitrary word/a/b < 1280512710 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and arbitrary number of parameters) < 1280512715 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would the general idea of that be in cyclexa? < 1280512719 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can never get into parser generators, they always seem a little incestuous to me, mixing grammar and code like that. < 1280512745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Not all of them mix it up. Some have separation of grammar and code as a primary design feature. < 1280512753 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Combinator parsers are less bad -- there it's more the case that I haven't found one I like yet < 1280512771 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Parsec? < 1280512798 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I don't like some of it's default choices < 1280512801 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Perhaps write one in the way that you like it? < 1280512825 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes -- I have one that's mostly written at this point. i should finish it < 1280512826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\{('a-z_'+)( :'a-z'!|'^ '*)*\} < 1280512837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, nested < 1280512837 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's in Python though < 1280512839 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surprise < 1280512840 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to recall that Grammatica (which is C#/Java), for example, does things so that the grammar file is completely generic and contains no code, and the code's in a separate class. < 1280512847 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(\{('a-z_'+)($1!| :'a-z'!|'^ '*)*\} < 1280512860 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I forgot the closing paren < 1280512862 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I would prefer that way of organizing stuff. I should check it out < 1280512899 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I may have made some minor mistakes, but that's basically how it would work < 1280512906 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wild < 1280512919 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SableCC did something similar, but I don't exactly remember what. < 1280512920 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's nice. < 1280512949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strangely, all the Cyclexa operators used there also exist in Perl5 < 1280512964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it would just try to match, it wouldn't remember the resulting parse tree like Cyclexa does < 1280512967 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking of calling my combinator parser "Jeeves" (because I was using it to implement a language called "Wooster") -- but I just googled "jeeves parser" and there already *is* a parser gen called "Jeeves" -- fizzie was right about there being a proliferation < 1280512986 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, there are two esolangs called Clue < 1280513009 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We should combine them! < 1280513040 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, maybe it's just a template-driven code gen -- but it's close anyway < 1280513183 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically writing it in python would be a bitch < 1280513191 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think it would be alright in perl, writing a parser for that? < 1280513193 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with regexps < 1280513257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :regexps do badly for parsing; they check whether your data is in the form you want, but it's a pain to actually get a parse tree out of that < 1280513292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"# Kills him! I was half expecting it, but also not really expecting it. I thought Lenny would go down to the basement and find Jimmy and then something dramatic would happen. I didn't really expect him to just kill Gammell here and now. < 1280513292 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# Take photo. Opening credits roll. Whoa. That's it?" < 1280513307 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :David Morgan-Mar was not a very fan of Backwards Memento. < 1280513329 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you should parse some HTML with regexps! (Cf. that stackoverflow losing-sanity post.) < 1280513389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as of Perl 5.8 or so, it can be done < 1280513392 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this does not mean it's a good idea < 1280513430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: did I tell you about my collaboration with ESR? < 1280513439 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No, but I've vomited pre-emptively. < 1280513441 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that you can just basically stick a full Perl program inside a regex around it, I guess you *can* do pretty much anything. < 1280513462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's trying to create the complete version history of every C-INTERCAL version ever < 1280513470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, to merge his unreleased changes with the latest source < 1280513490 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't accept them ew ew ew you'll get esr cooties < 1280513506 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it works like that... < 1280513513 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOES < 1280513517 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're probably just fetchmail integration anyway < 1280513559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I don't have much of a choice < 1280513563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because this is at the request of Knuth < 1280513576 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! wow - why? < 1280513581 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who knows < 1280513589 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Knuth, eh? < 1280513590 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like an Imperial Degree for programmers. < 1280513601 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, you have no choice but to accept. It's an Imperial Decree. < 1280513609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, hm... opengenera supports lpd < 1280513614 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like he really wanted a modern INTERCAL compiler for some reason < 1280513614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cups supports emulating this < 1280513617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who am I to doubt him? < 1280513621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lets see if we can get this working < 1280513628 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Hey, you stole my terminology. :P < 1280513645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, now I just need a dot matrix printer instead of a pdf output driver < 1280513680 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you don't have a dot matrix printer, write a program to emulate a dot matrix printer? < 1280513717 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course making an emulation will not be perfect, but it can still be used for some thing, display the contents on the screen as it is printing and then send the result to the printer once the document is finished < 1280513724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280513740 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also you won't be able to use continuous paper < 1280513743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a spare dot matrix printer you might get, if you come to pick it up. (Note: estimated value of the printer probably won't cover your travel costs.) < 1280513779 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Is true! < 1280513781 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: did you ever respond to my perl question? < 1280513800 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1280513811 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :re-ask the question and I'll remember which one it is < 1280513824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, "would it be alright in perl"? I responded < 1280513825 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last time I visited a large office supply chain store, their detectives managed to locate three existing printer-color-ink-ribbon-things in the whole world (in some warehouse in the middle of nowhere); I ordered all three of them, so it might be nontrivial to get more now if you run out of those. < 1280513830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : regexps do badly for parsing; they check whether your data is in the form you want, but it's a pain to actually get a parse tree out of that < 1280513846 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, what i meant was part-regexp part-perl to parse that syntax < 1280513848 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never really tried that < 1280513858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should work, I think < 1280513867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't really tried it either, except for Underload < 1280513871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's rather easy to parse < 1280513876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is very slow, incidentally < 1280513884 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it? < 1280513915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's O(n) out from where you'd expect < 1280513932 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the way I did it < 1280514042 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280514108 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280514212 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the code in TeX for "repeat until \pageno is the same value as it was the previous time"? < 1280514214 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what i don't get about parsers is, why isn't there one that doesn't require code, just splits into a nested list? < 1280514215 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: dunno < 1280514252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: people tend to want more control than that < 1280514262 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't :-) < 1280514267 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: How much do you know about TeX? < 1280514277 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Not much about plain TeX. < 1280514281 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or LaTeX; but a bit of that. < 1280514337 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I know is that Plain TeX does not have blackboard bold, there is various other mathematical symbols missing, too. < 1280514352 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much do you know about LaTeX? < 1280514367 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much, but enough to use it competently for simple stuff and for complicated stuff with a bit of Googling. < 1280514370 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: SableCC constructs an AST without any code, but you'd end up with your AST made out of separate classes (corresponding to the grammar productions), and then you'd need to walk those. < 1280514380 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Which is a bitch. < 1280514383 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am writing the Icoruma->TeX conversion program, so I can use LaTeX instead of Plain TeX if I have to. < 1280514393 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I would suggest that. < 1280514395 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes, but on the other hand: no messy parser actions. < 1280514403 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can do things like Tables of Contents for you, which would be a big boon. < 1280514417 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I just want to do something like < 1280514452 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I have already figured out how to to table of contents even in Plain TeX < 1280514455 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definition := ^[a-z] \s* '=' \s* ^expr < 1280514472 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And how to do cross-referencing < 1280514480 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used this: \def\Ref#1{\xdef#1{\the\pageno}} < 1280514489 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the ^ would mean "interesting part", so the result of foo=bar would be ('definition', 'foo', ('expr', ('varname', 'bar'))) < 1280514499 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes, but LaTeX does it for you and with lots of typographical stuff. < 1280514535 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: On the third hand, also, if you just want a nested list out of it, the parser actions in some mixed grammar/code stuff (or the class in something like Grammatica) will be very very simple. < 1280514557 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I need LaTeX unless I need to use a lot of extra matmematical symbols which are not supported in Plain TeX. (Why didn't Knuth put them in Plain TeX?) < 1280514577 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: LaTeX isn't bloated or anything. < 1280514593 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: OK < 1280514626 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how do you do that kind of cross-referencing in LaTeX, then? < 1280514650 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big Project is Open (as Public Alpha) NOW! < 1280514686 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Making a reference to a page number, you mean? < 1280514707 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\label{my-unique-name} < 1280514709 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then later < 1280514711 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TeX has a very powerful macro support, so I can already do table of contents, and references, and various other things, how does LaTeX improve onto this? < 1280514713 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\ref{my-unique-name} < 1280514745 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: \pageref, you mean; if you're talking about page number references. < 1280514754 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: LaTeX was created with close attention to typographical detail, so things will be more refined than your work, unless you're an experienced typesetter; and it has more comprehensive support for those things. Additionally, it provides several useful commands, alleviating the need to define them yourself, and often with more useful functoinality. < 1280514756 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: That too. < 1280514765 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\pageref{my-unique-name} yields a page number. < 1280514903 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: So that is how you do it. < 1280514941 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still, what kind of improvements does LaTeX add on? Plain TeX can do things like this too without too much difficulty, I showed you the codes I used < 1280515017 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX makes everything easier to do by hand. < 1280515023 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the *main* benefit. < 1280515024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LaTeX pays much more typographical attention; contains many, many more commands, more complex than the ones you have so far hand-crafted; and is altogether a consistent and useful /semantic/ system with /pluggable looks/ rather than TeX the /visual/ system with /coded-in looks/. < 1280515045 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise, there's a lot of fine details that you probably don't notice that it does. < 1280515047 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK, so that is the difference! Thanks now I know < 1280515084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yeah; you put in semantic info and let it do the rest. < 1280515102 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the main idea is that with LaTeX you get to specify the logical structure of the document (it has sections, subsections, figures, tables) and then someone else has already thought out how to make it look nice; it's not so low-level that you'd have to say how something looks, as opposed to what something is. < 1280515134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I had that whole long sentence written, I didn't want it to go waste even if you two already said the same things twice.) < 1280515142 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, if you *insist*, you can just straight-up futz with the look of the document. < 1280515151 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it *is* still TeX, just with a bunch of macros defined) < 1280515222 0 :Wamanuz2!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280515271 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could, however, understand someone not using LaTeX and opting for hand-crafted lowlevelness just "because"; I don't really have a valid explanation of everything I've ever reimplemented while fiddling with things. < 1280515299 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Way to give therapy to zzo38's NIH :-P < 1280515305 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey so does need to become a NIH therapist. < 1280515313 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NIH, the rapist of minds. < 1280515320 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: I mean, if I didn't write it, why on earth would it be any good for anything? < 1280515496 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does LaTeX also have more mathematical symbols? < 1280515551 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1280515566 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's AMS-LaTeX for lots of mathematical symbols; but didn't they have an AMS-TeX too? < 1280515602 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like all good psychiatric types, I would just end up subtly encouraging NIH to keep my patient roster full, of course. < 1280515634 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, is there Plain TeX with AMS added on? If so, I would make the next version of Enhanced CWEB support it < 1280515641 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes there was < 1280515723 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Kurt Gödel looks delightfully evil... <-- both name and look fit perfectly for a mad scientist villain < 1280515783 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: He should've had a cat on his lap in more pictures. < 1280515812 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there _any_ such pictures? < 1280515819 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I activate the use of AMS with Plain TeX? < 1280515830 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"More than zero", based on a quick Google image search. < 1280515845 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i don't recall < 1280515861 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ams.org/publications/authors/tex/tex has download links for AMS-TeX; I have no clue what is in there that wouldn't be in AMS-LaTeX, or vice versa, but supposedly it has some docs in the distribution too. < 1280515864 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it was a package, like latex itself is < 1280515886 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Each collection includes a user's guide"; that sounds promising. < 1280515964 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It says MediaWiki supports LaTeX markup, but commands such as \count don't work? Is that only for Plain TeX? Or are those commands just unavailable in MediaWiki? < 1280515995 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no relevant hits on google picture search < 1280516014 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, anyone parsed stuff in Python? < 1280516022 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: No; but there were very strange pictures of a hammer, and a hairy naked man. < 1280516024 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: AMS-TeX is heavily deprecated. < 1280516028 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not even Spivak, its author, would use it < 1280516028 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: YES < 1280516030 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/$/!/ < 1280516037 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: to the parsed in py q < 1280516037 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Yes, oerjan; /that/ Spivak.) < 1280516040 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(& ais523) < 1280516045 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: With? Just plain Python? < 1280516061 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: Yes. Then I tried a combinator parser dealie which sucked. So I wrote my own. < 1280516077 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm strange you see. I *like* writing RDPs. < 1280516092 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1280516095 0 :alise!~alise@91.105.111.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1280516096 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would, but < 1280516100 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python makes them painful. < 1280516106 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really? AMS-TeX is deprecated? I would use it in Enhanced CWEB, if it is compatible with Plain TeX < 1280516115 0 :Wamanuz2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280516116 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I want to parse is {tag body body body :param body body body :param body body body ...} nested in body. < 1280516119 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's it. < 1280516133 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Well, perhaps not officially /deprecated/; but very unmaintained. < 1280516139 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AMS-TeX was originally written by Michael Spivak, and was used by the AMS from 1983 to 1985." < 1280516160 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oddly, actually, it's Java where I've found writing an RDP to be the least pleasant. C, Perl, Python, all about the same level of hassle. Well, the C routines I use, I guess have been around a lot longer and have aged like fine cheese. < 1280516172 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(A MediaWiki comment also says that \underrightarrow is also not supported, so it isn't only \count and \def that don't work) < 1280516193 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise: That's like two or three productions, tops. < 1280516216 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People other than me would say using a parser gen for it would be overkill. < 1280516219 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does MiKTeX include support for AMS-TeX? < 1280516229 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Yeah -- now try and write it as a recursive descent parser in Python. < 1280516236 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Enjoy your pain. < 1280516240 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Probably not. < 1280516301 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :def parse_body(): expect '{'; tag = scan(); while token != '}' parse_body(); expect '}'; < 1280516307 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course you need to parse params too < 1280516313 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i don't know what rules you are using for that < 1280516322 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, here's a full description of the syntax: < 1280516323 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course that is teh bad python < 1280516323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alise, symbolics documentation on installing a printer: < 1280516324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order to install a printer, you have to: < 1280516324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Uncrate the printer < 1280516324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Cable the printer to a Symbolics system < 1280516324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Specify the switch settings < 1280516324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[...] < 1280516329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first item there... wtf XD < 1280516342 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It was even better since I misread it as "Uncreate the printer". < 1280516350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, :D < 1280516361 0 :cpressey!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It needs a label: DO NOT PLUG IN WHILE STILL IN CRATE < 1280516387 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Every node is either arbitrary plain-text without { or }, or a node of the format {TAGNAME ... PARAMS}, where TAGNAME is just an a-z case-insensitive string, ... is more of these nodes that I'm describing, except terminated on the first whitespace followed by ":". Params are :TAGNAME ... with whitespace always before the :, with the ... terminated in the same way. < 1280516388 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So we have < 1280516409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In bold under the section "Uncrating the Printer": "Check the outside of the box containing the printer for unpacking and installation instructions." < 1280516414 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{link {bold Go}{italic ogle} :to http://google.com/ :andoverthetopfornoparticularreason hello, {bold world}!} < 1280516418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this just gets better for every line!! < 1280516422 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to have only written a parser for Rail -- as in, the 2d trail-following esolang -- in Python, and that's not very recursive-descent by nature. < 1280516468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Hello, bold world!" sounds somehow more upbeat than a regular hello-world message. < 1280516498 0 :Phantom_Hoover!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1280516529 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cpressey: Writing this in Python is teh pain. < 1280516702 0 :Gregor-P!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems that generally people want a Hackiki as an adjunct to the MediaWiki < 1280516719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why... is they naming the example printer in the docs "pravda" < 1280516730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are* < 1280516742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't that russian? < 1280516780 0 :alise!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P: We'll probably neglect it. < 1280516800 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a reasonable name, still; the word's known widely even among non-Russian-speaking folks. < 1280516844 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also good name for a printer; it would not feel out-of-place to print flyers to extremist-political demonstrations on it. < 1280516847 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the truth. < 1280516857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Groanity. < 1280516906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280516915 0 :Wamanuz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1280516916 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: did you paste what i asked you to < 1280516926 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Oh noes, sorry. I'll do that now. < 1280516934 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1280516948 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor-P: I also agree, add Hackiki as an adjunct to the MediaWiki. < 1280516956 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::d:D:D:D:Dd:Ddddd:-D:DDDDD < 1280516961 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I compleatly forgot about it. < 1280516962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, whaaat? < 1280516967 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD < 1280516973 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the best day of my life < 1280516984 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Don't look at me; he wanted it. < 1280516986 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for two reasons actually, the other happened at uni < 1280516990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is so out of character. Using a longer than maybe 4 smiley < 1280516998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: You met your true love at the uni?! < 1280517002 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know how toilet paper comes from those weird boxes in public shitting places < 1280517003 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If some people want to convert some of the pages over they can do so, possibly someone will add a MediaWiki parser in that Hackiki site if they want that..... < 1280517014 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: Thus far it's not sounding like a love story. < 1280517015 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are two rolls in one < 1280517018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklopol: You met your true love at the uni?! < 1280517018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you know how toilet paper comes from those weird boxes in public shitting places < 1280517020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1280517024 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the other roll was the wrong way around < 1280517024 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you should provide read-only access to some of the MediaWiki files from Hackiki < 1280517037 0 :Wamanuz!~Wamanuz@78-69-168-43-no84.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1280517037 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that some people can experiment a few things < 1280517039 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the paper was hanging down < 1280517046 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what when you pulled paper out < 1280517051 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, add the