←2010-07-30 2010-07-31 2010-08-01→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:10:27 <alise> "The new Mac Pro. With up to 12 cores of processing power, it’s the fastest Mac ever."
00:10:31 <alise> Abuh. Resist urge to purchase.
00:13:55 <alise> (Okay, that took very little effort actually.)
00:14:03 <alise> (Looks like my disassimilation went quickly.)
00:14:30 * pikhq both wants to eat and cannot compel self to make something
00:14:55 <alise> pikhq: eat plastic!
00:14:59 <alise> it's nutritious and NUTRITIOUS!
00:19:10 <nooga> pikhq: eat raw food
00:21:03 <AnMaster> alise, Get a Intel server board, a case, some disks, a few fans, and a GPU and you get the same performance for less than half the price
00:21:15 <AnMaster> an*
00:21:30 <AnMaster> oh and pair of server CPUs
00:21:36 <AnMaster> still less than half the price
00:21:46 <alise> AnMaster: Well, yeah, if all you care about is raw hardware performance. (Which is, in this case, true; but my point stands.)
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00:22:02 <AnMaster> alise, why would you care about anything else than that?
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00:22:19 <alise> I refuse to answer ...
00:22:19 <AnMaster> what else is there to care about? Being a mac hippie?
00:22:31 <alise> Now you're just trolling: you know I dislike Apple.
00:22:49 <alise> So the only possible point of that statement -- to ridicule my like of Apple -- does not exist; you are trolling.
00:22:56 <AnMaster> alise, http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/iProduct.gif
00:23:09 <AnMaster> alise, no, I'm not trolling you
00:23:13 <AnMaster> alise, I'm trolling apple
00:23:13 <AnMaster> :P
00:23:28 <AnMaster> alise, which is a lot more fun
00:24:00 <alise> Yes; you're trolling Apple by saying "mac hippie" somewhere entirely other than Cupertino. Do you even understand how this sort of stuff works? You can't troll someone who isn't listening. Do you even know what "trolling" means?
00:24:41 <AnMaster> alise, a far out idea for something else than raw performance: the case design
00:24:54 <AnMaster> and um, not having to put together the parts on your own
00:25:13 <alise> Shut up. You're not making intelligent socio-political commentary about Mac users.
00:25:13 <AnMaster> probably buying a comparable HP server or such would still be way cheaper
00:25:27 <AnMaster> alise, ... that's an impossible task :P
00:26:07 <AnMaster> alise, btw are those apple xserver thingies equally over-priced?
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00:26:23 <AnMaster> and is that why you never see them in data centers?
00:26:56 <alise> I've made a New Midnight's Resolution; and that is to not respond to anything blatantly provocative and/or trolling in a very stupid way from you.
00:27:11 <alise> So, good luck with that.
00:27:14 <AnMaster> alise, "<AnMaster> alise, btw are those apple xserver thingies equally over-priced?" was actually a serious question
00:27:20 <AnMaster> not trolling at all
00:27:21 <alise> They're expensive.
00:27:35 <alise> Whether they are overpriced is up to you; they're certainly for institutions with a lot of cash. They /are/ in use.
00:27:45 <alise> Just not in data centres; more in processing labs and stuff.
00:28:03 <CakeProphet> Python -- derived from the verb pythein, "to rot"
00:28:09 <AnMaster> alise, because most people who 1U servers probably care a LOT more about raw power than someone who buys a mac pro.
00:28:16 <AnMaster> who buy 1U*
00:28:42 <alise> CakeProphet: Oh snap.
00:29:10 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, how fitting for Monty Python was my first thought. How fit for the programming language python was my second.
00:29:12 <alise> Hmm, \#esoteric produces a distinctly unsatisfactory rendering of the channel name with LaTeX.
00:29:21 <AnMaster> alise, CM?
00:29:23 <CakeProphet> quick, someone tell me what style of columns the Parthenon had.
00:29:34 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, ...?
00:29:38 <CakeProphet> ..
00:29:40 <CakeProphet> :)
00:29:42 <AnMaster> try wikipedia
00:29:43 <CakeProphet> TO GOOGLE
00:29:48 <AnMaster> I have no clue
00:29:59 <alise> AnMaster: Minion Pro.
00:30:07 <alise> But it's more the...
00:30:08 <AnMaster> alise, try it in CMR, does it look better there?
00:30:09 <CakeProphet> Doric
00:30:10 <alise> I think it needs small caps.
00:30:19 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I am however curious as to why you wondered about that
00:30:23 <alise> AnMaster: it won't; it's not a font issue. Besides, all the glyphs are perfectly reasonable and professional. This is not a font issue.
00:30:27 <alise> This is a typesetting issue.
00:30:35 <AnMaster> alise, still, try that
00:30:39 <alise> AnMaster: No. There is no point.
00:30:46 <alise> \textsc{\#esoteric} is almost correct, but the letter spacing is too large.
00:30:47 <AnMaster> oh you just hate CMR
00:30:51 <alise> No.
00:30:52 <alise> I like CMR.
00:30:56 <AnMaster> okay then
00:31:04 <alise> You just hate my apparent hate of CMR and thus try to push CMR even when it's irrelevant.
00:31:27 <AnMaster> alise, in the context of latex CMR is quite relevant
00:31:39 <alise> But there's no reason to say "try CMR" if it's nothing to do with font.
00:31:39 <pikhq> IIRC, you felt that CMR is the only acceptable Didone font...
00:31:50 <alise> pikhq: Which it, of course, is. An opinion I believe you share.
00:31:52 <CakeProphet> .....
00:31:55 <pikhq> (which of course it is)
00:31:57 <CakeProphet> I don't really get why typesetting is interesting.
00:31:57 <AnMaster> alise, I never claimed you should use it as a font for GUI elements
00:31:58 <CakeProphet> at all.
00:31:59 <AnMaster> for example
00:32:24 <alise> CakeProphet: Then I kindly suggest you don't bother those of us who do think it is.
00:32:30 <alise> I probably don't consider many of your hobbies interesting.
00:32:41 <pikhq> CakeProphet: You need to read more well-typeset text.
00:32:49 <alise> {\large\#}esoteric % this is good
00:32:56 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, I think LaTeX with microtype does a good job at it. I leave the rest to it
00:33:05 <AnMaster> it looks good and I don't want to fiddle with details
00:33:14 <CakeProphet> needs moar serifs
00:33:22 <AnMaster> what?
00:33:27 <CakeProphet> everything
00:33:30 <CakeProphet> it was a general statement
00:33:31 <CakeProphet> about serifs.
00:33:40 <AnMaster> okay _that_ was trolling
00:33:52 <pikhq> CakeProphet: Yes, well-typeset text will use serif fonts for most of it.
00:34:04 <AnMaster> pikhq, unless for screen reading
00:34:07 <CakeProphet> pikhq: but wait...
00:34:13 <CakeProphet> isn't comic sans like... the best font?
00:34:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, I consider type setting a solved problem: LaTeX + CMR + Microtype
00:34:29 <pikhq> CakeProphet: -_-'
00:34:31 <CakeProphet> :)
00:34:40 <alise> I love how AnMaster thinks that one type fits /all purposes/; that it's spelled "type setting", and that one type fits /all purposes/.
00:34:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, for low-DPI usage a sans serif font is often preferable.
00:34:53 <AnMaster> alise, it fits everything I type
00:35:00 <alise> It's like there's some retarded part of his brain that really doesn't understand what typefaces do to text. Wait, that's all of his brain.
00:35:17 <AnMaster> alise, also I think it doesn't matter if I spell it "type setting" or "typesetting" on IRC. Hell English is inconsistent already
00:35:22 <pikhq> Though I've found that Deja Vu Serif, hinted, is *very* readable.
00:35:30 <alise> AnMaster: i totly agre LOL fuk u english
00:35:38 <alise> pikhq wtf??? r dese esolangs
00:35:38 <pikhq> (as a screen font)
00:35:43 <alise> u dont no fuckshit bout languages
00:35:48 <AnMaster> alise, you fail at trolling however
00:36:00 <alise> you fail at knowing what trolling is and when it is intended.
00:36:06 <AnMaster> alise, like you fail at trolling augur for how he types :P
00:36:08 <nooga> afro?
00:36:18 <pikhq> CakeProphet: I kill people for MS Comic Sans.
00:36:22 <augur> AnMaster: thats because i type awesome
00:36:23 <pikhq> In general.
00:36:28 <AnMaster> augur, exactly!
00:36:41 <pikhq> I will (barely) make an exception for use in comic lettering.
00:36:57 <CakeProphet> http://julianhansen.com/index.php?/alternative-type-finder/
00:36:58 <CakeProphet> here
00:36:59 <pikhq> (where it is *appropriate*, though not the best choice of font, IMO)
00:37:04 <CakeProphet> this is how I pick typefaces
00:37:07 <AnMaster> <pikhq> Though I've found that Deja Vu Serif, hinted, is *very* readable. <-- agreed. the whole Dejavu family, when hinted, is very good for on-screen reading
00:37:07 <CakeProphet> with this flowchart. :)
00:37:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: Shit for printing, but quite nice on-screen.
00:37:35 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, I use CMR for printing ;P
00:39:29 <cheater99> HERLO
00:39:32 <cheater99> alise: HI!
00:39:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: Minion!
00:39:53 <nooga> Frutiger & Syntax
00:39:55 <alise> cheater99: hi
00:40:00 <cheater99> supz?
00:40:04 <alise> Frutiger is a nice font but the NHS use it.
00:40:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, *shrug*
00:40:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, to me it makes no difference
00:40:26 <alise> AnMaster: and that is why you do not have the qualifications to call typesetting a "solved problem".
00:40:33 <cheater99> supzzzz alise?
00:40:35 <alise> which is btw a huge insult to the very skilled and careful typographers through the ages.
00:40:36 <nooga> national health service?
00:40:39 <alise> nooga: yes
00:40:42 <alise> *national hell service
00:40:45 <nooga> hheheheheh
00:40:47 <nooga> heheh
00:40:58 <nooga> mauhaha, you should check it here in PL
00:41:04 <CakeProphet> alise: I think you're one of the easiest people to troll ever.
00:41:08 <CakeProphet> one day...
00:41:12 <CakeProphet> I will sneak up on you.
00:41:25 <pikhq> alise: Well, the boring parts of typesetting *are* a solved problem. :)
00:41:27 <CakeProphet> and insult typography or something
00:41:43 <alise> CakeProphet: i've not been trolled.
00:41:48 <alise> i know exactly what AnMaster is trying to do
00:41:49 * AnMaster forces alise to typeset whatever he is typesetting in Zapfino
00:41:55 <alise> i'm just talking shit about him like always
00:42:08 <augur> anyone a big bang theory fan?
00:42:18 <AnMaster> alise, yes you usually jut talk shit
00:42:23 <CakeProphet> The entrance to the Acropolis that used both Doric and Ionian columns was the...
00:42:27 <CakeProphet> man I just love this history test
00:42:39 <CakeProphet> it's like... asking me about architecture
00:42:42 <CakeProphet> and not history
00:42:49 <nooga> Ionian --> @ ?
00:43:32 <CakeProphet> ?
00:43:35 <cheater99> alise hates me.
00:43:50 <CakeProphet> your mom is alise and hates niggers
00:43:51 <coppro> woot I finally have irssi up
00:44:02 * CakeProphet is using irssi.
00:44:04 <alise> i don't hate niggers just 'cuz they be niggers man
00:44:06 <CakeProphet> I like it.
00:44:24 <cheater99> alise hates niggers FOR HITLER
00:44:50 <alise> no that's the faggots
00:44:54 <cheater99> oh ok
00:45:08 <cheater99> what about shemales?
00:45:12 <cheater99> and t-girls?
00:45:27 <cheater99> they're technically not faggots
00:45:27 <nooga> oh no, please stop
00:45:41 <cheater99> why
00:45:45 <cheater99> do you hate shemales?
00:45:49 <cheater99> you hitler you
00:46:41 <nooga> I'm allergic after one weird (luckily not close) encounter
00:46:50 <cheater99> what happened there
00:46:52 <nooga> :F
00:46:56 <augur> has anyone reminded you guys recently that alise is like a small version of David Deutsch?
00:47:03 <cheater99> well go on, nothing to be ashamed of
00:47:13 <cheater99> if you say you never did anything
00:47:23 <cheater99> was "she" hitting on you?
00:47:29 <AnMaster> <coppro> woot I finally have irssi up <-- what about it?
00:47:33 <alise> nooga was /trying/ to have sex with a cat covered in peanuts
00:47:43 <nooga> erm
00:47:48 <augur> how would you cover a cat in peanuts
00:47:49 <nooga> not exactly
00:47:55 <augur> they'd just fall off the cat
00:47:56 <cheater99> nooga: just tell us the story
00:47:57 <nooga> besides, i hate cats
00:48:00 <AnMaster> coppro, I mean, after getting printing files to cups from opengenera to work, that feels like an insignificant feat :P No offence meant.
00:48:26 <alise> augur: glue
00:48:37 <alise> coppro: don't worry AnMaster is just so tech-superior to you
00:48:42 <alise> he solved a trivial problem too but his was more pointless!
00:48:44 <alise> so he wins
00:48:45 <augur> alise: that would be rather difficult
00:48:56 <AnMaster> alise, actually I expect coppro to be able to pull this off too
00:49:01 <AnMaster> from what I know about him
00:49:46 <coppro> AnMaster: none taken
00:49:55 <coppro> why, just the other day I broke a computer by joining a club
00:50:29 <cheater99> nooga got scared to talk about his life
00:51:20 <AnMaster> coppro, how?
00:52:44 <AnMaster> alise, besides, it wasn't trivial. Had to translate the ppd to settings that opengenera understands. Which is in a custom format of course
00:52:53 <AnMaster> and various other strange stuff
00:53:01 <nooga> AnMaster: what for?
00:53:11 <AnMaster> nooga, what for? To get printing to work?
00:53:19 <AnMaster> or do you mean "why get printing to work"
00:53:30 <AnMaster> or "why opengenera" or "why computers"
00:53:46 <nooga> why get printing to work under opengenera
00:54:27 <AnMaster> nooga, why not. And I wanted to be able to do hardcopies of my interactive lisp session easily ;P
00:54:44 <AnMaster> however, I haven't yet got that to work, since it adds a cover page. And that breaks things
00:55:08 <nooga> ffs, why are you playing with opengenera?! don't you have emacs? :|
00:55:29 <AnMaster> nooga, zmacs is nicer
00:55:47 <AnMaster> ooh I just had an idea. However it has the issue that documents will print in reverse
00:56:02 <AnMaster> could add a post processing step for that though
00:56:15 <nooga> ah, i see, you're the opengenera fan, like alise is a plan9 fan
00:56:30 <AnMaster> nooga, oh yes, I quite like plan9 too as well
00:56:49 <nooga> wait a second, plan9 is actually quite useful and at least boots natively on a modern pc
00:56:57 <AnMaster> nooga, both systems were commercial failures. Both were innovative.
00:57:04 <nooga> true
00:57:10 <alise> opengenera was not innovative.
00:57:11 <alise> genera was.
00:57:14 <CakeProphet> boobs are innovative
00:57:18 <AnMaster> alise, well yes
00:57:29 <alise> CakeProphet: also true
00:57:34 <AnMaster> alise, but I don't have a physical lisp machine, so I will have to take the second best
00:57:53 <cheater99> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/russia-processor-collection-persian-rugs,10975.html
00:57:54 <AnMaster> and god damn, I never ever seen such a well documented system as genera
00:57:55 <AnMaster> ever
00:58:10 <CakeProphet> I have never heard of genera, but I have heard of plan 9
00:58:22 <AnMaster> CakeProphet, you heard of lisp machines?
00:58:29 <nooga> i like the idea of tty
00:58:43 <AnMaster> nooga, tty as in ttys on unix?
00:58:56 <nooga> mhm
00:59:19 <AnMaster> nooga, why? I mean, it seems to me like something obvious that is just there.
00:59:29 <nooga> and i don't like plan9's idea of console
00:59:33 <AnMaster> it's like "I like the idea of RAM"
00:59:38 <nooga> but the rest of plan9 is okay
00:59:44 <AnMaster> hm
01:00:21 <AnMaster> I like many parts of plan9, but the user interface is not one of them. I like genera/opengenera's user interface though. You very quickly get used to scroll wheel doing nothing
01:00:27 <AnMaster> and then very quickly you stop missing it
01:00:36 <AnMaster> scrolling works quite differently but very well
01:01:12 <AnMaster> scroll wheel as well would be nice though.
01:01:24 <nooga> i tried to write a replacement for rio and, suprisingly, i even managed to display colorful rectangles on the screen
01:02:03 <AnMaster> nooga, hm?
01:02:14 <AnMaster> nooga, I think there is a bit more than that to it :P
01:02:19 <CakeProphet> nooga: rectangle-oriented interface? :)
01:02:20 <nooga> yeah :D
01:02:34 <AnMaster> nooga, is rio the WM?
01:02:35 <AnMaster> I forgot
01:02:39 <nooga> yes
01:03:38 <alise> no
01:03:41 <alise> rio is the window multiplexer
01:03:42 <alise> i guess
01:03:44 <alise> barely a manager
01:04:06 <AnMaster> alise, does it draw the window borders?
01:04:11 <alise> yes.
01:04:12 <CakeProphet> so, anyone else know a lot about DSP? and also Haskell?
01:04:23 <AnMaster> alise, and handle dragging of borders and such?
01:04:28 <CakeProphet> because I want to figure out how to do DSP in Haskell, but so far I haven't been able to comprehend DSP libraries for Haskell.
01:04:36 <alise> AnMaster: but it is not structured like an x manager.
01:04:39 <CakeProphet> and think maybe I could do it myself pretty well?
01:04:45 <AnMaster> alise, well, okay
01:04:49 <AnMaster> still, it is a window manager in my book
01:05:11 <AnMaster> not an X11 one of course
01:05:15 <AnMaster> but still a window manager
01:05:50 <alise> the basic strategy is pointing /dev/{screen,mouse,keyboard} of children to its own file then painter's algorithm
01:05:59 <alise> so in a way it is more involved than an x manager by completely engulfing windows
01:06:25 <nooga> http://www.facebook.com/ehird
01:06:28 <AnMaster> alise, besides I only asked if it was the WM. By pure chance both Window Manager and Window Multiplexer happens to fit that
01:06:31 <nooga> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:06:39 <nooga> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:07:00 <AnMaster> alise, so it is like a combination of a X WM and the actual X server?
01:07:22 <nooga> p9's gui is nothing like X
01:07:27 <alise> AnMaster: in a way. but the graphics hardware is handled by the drivers still.
01:07:30 <alise> so not really.
01:07:30 <CakeProphet> I'm thinking Arrow would be a useful abstraction for digital signal processors?
01:07:39 <AnMaster> alise, and by this design hw acceleration OpenGL performance would suck under plan9, right?
01:07:42 <alise> it multiplexes a bunch of fake /dev/screens to the real /dev/screen with painter's algorithm basically.
01:07:50 <alise> AnMaster: yeah -- because summaries reveal all details.
01:08:05 <AnMaster> alise, indeed, that's a universal truth :P
01:09:50 <nooga> meh
01:11:41 <nooga> dansk jevlar!
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01:22:33 <AnMaster> nooga, why?
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01:38:49 <alise> http://julianhansen.com/files/infographiclarge_v2.png
01:39:43 <alise> READABILITY? -> NO -> Didot
01:40:10 <nooga> AnMaster: just quoting Helmer from Von Trier's Kingdom
01:42:54 <AnMaster> nooga, some play?
01:43:10 <Gregor> alise: I love the link to comic sans X-D
01:44:22 <alise> The Kingdom (Danish title: Riget) is an eight-episode Danish television mini-series, created by Lars von Trier in 1994, and co-directed by Lars von Trier and Morten Arnfred.
01:45:40 <AnMaster> Gregor, same
01:45:56 * oerjan recalls his first collaborator was a big fan of Riget
01:46:32 <Gregor> I'm a big fan of scratching my head and wondering why people care so much about fonts.
01:46:43 <alise> Typefaces, dammit, typefaces.
01:46:55 <Gregor> Case in point.
01:47:19 <oerjan> Gregor: i guess you need to care about esthetics first, right? *badum-tish* (/me doesn't really either)
01:47:19 <alise> A font is a component of a typeface: for instance Times New Roman is a typeface, where as 10pt Times New Roman, italic is a font.
01:47:35 <Gregor> I have zero capacity for aesthetics.
01:47:48 <Gregor> This is why today I was wearing a pink shirt with a peacock blue tie and a white hat :P
01:47:57 <nooga> Riget is awesome
01:49:00 <nooga> Gregor: you're research fellow, right?
01:49:11 <Gregor> No, I don't have a fellowship.
01:49:16 <Gregor> But I'm usually a research assistant.
01:49:23 <nooga> ok, justified
01:49:24 <Gregor> And presently I'm a research intern.
01:49:38 <alise> Research Fellowship of the Pseudo-Ring.
01:49:39 <Gregor> What's justified?
01:49:55 <Gregor> ... no. Not justified :P
01:49:58 <nooga> Gregor: your fashion
01:50:01 <Gregor> Ah
01:50:40 <alise> abc
01:50:42 <Gregor> When I showed up for my first day at MSR, all the first-day interns (in all divisions) had to herd together first. When I went through one line, the woman checking things went "I'll bet you're in research. Go that way."
01:50:47 <Gregor> Didn't even ask :P
01:50:48 <AnMaster> <Gregor> This is why today I was wearing a pink shirt with a peacock blue tie and a white hat :P
01:50:50 <AnMaster> awesome
01:52:25 <AnMaster> Gregor, however. if you are able to note that this means you don't have a capacity for aesthetics, then that means you either were told this, or realise that it isn't aesthetic. The latter would mean that you do in fact have a capacity for aesthetics!
01:52:51 <Gregor> The way I dress is regularly described as "garish" or "gaudy"
01:52:56 <alise> MMM. SPIKY SERIFS ARE NICE -> OK -> Swift
01:53:00 <alise> That's some multiple choice.
01:53:06 <Gregor> I figure I probably haven't figured it out by now :P
01:53:25 <alise> DO YOU LIKE FUTURA? -> YES -> Futura
01:53:29 <alise> That was unexpected.
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01:55:27 <AnMaster> Gregor, iirc you said you use your colour matcher to generate non-matching colours right?
01:55:43 <Gregor> That's a joke :P
01:55:45 <Gregor> I don't actually do that.
01:56:12 <AnMaster> Gregor, oh damn
01:56:18 <AnMaster> Gregor, that would have been so cool
01:56:32 <oerjan> Gregor: YOU'VE BEEN LYING TO US
01:56:54 <Gregor> The problem is clothing matching is more complicated than colors, reflective properties can make two things that seem to match from one photo actually go terribly together.
01:57:41 <oerjan> hm so you actually need a ray tracer to do it properly? :D
01:57:48 <AnMaster> wonderful
01:58:13 <AnMaster> Gregor, as long as they don't turn out to go nicely together when they shouldn't
01:58:40 <Gregor> Fair enough when I'm aiming NOT to match I suppose :P
01:59:42 <AnMaster> Gregor, as with your clothes that is?
02:00:02 <Gregor> Yuh
02:01:03 <AnMaster> Gregor, still you do have a sense for aesthetics. If you didn't you would be unable to even comment upon dressing without aesthetics!
02:01:13 <AnMaster> sure it might be poor
02:01:18 <AnMaster> but it must still be there
02:01:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, the best you can manage is thus a limit towards zero
02:01:37 <Gregor> :P
02:01:42 <Gregor> SO UNHELPFUL :P
02:02:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, what?
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02:04:09 <AnMaster> alise, what I don't get is how it can suggest typesetting a whole book in Baskerville
02:04:50 <AnMaster> okay, it is better than Zapfino or Bodoni by far, Still horrible for long sections of text
02:04:55 <alise> no, it isn't
02:04:57 <alise> only on screen
02:05:05 <AnMaster> alise, that could explain it
02:05:07 <alise> a /good/ digitised baskerville -- a GOOD one, bad ones are by far the majority --
02:05:08 <alise> is beautiful
02:05:28 <alise> for instance, Douglas Adams' works I suspect would be superb in a /good/ digitised baskerville.
02:05:41 <AnMaster> digitised?
02:05:45 <AnMaster> why digitised?
02:05:47 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/BaskervilleSpec.svg <-- this is a good baskerville
02:05:52 <alise> AnMaster: Umm ... unless you're using metal type.
02:06:01 <alise> Then you're using a digitised font family.
02:06:05 <AnMaster> <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/BaskervilleSpec.svg <-- this is a good baskerville <-- this is like unreadable
02:06:12 <alise> You're like stupid.
02:06:20 <AnMaster> alise, no, I'm on like 114 dpi
02:06:25 <alise> Ctrl +.
02:06:26 <AnMaster> oh wait
02:06:27 <alise> It's called svg.
02:06:32 <Gregor> "Pants goes against the Word of God"
02:06:33 <AnMaster> alise, thought it was a png
02:06:36 <Gregor> -- http://amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com/subpage209.html
02:06:53 <alise> Anyway, /any/ typeface will have a range of digitisations from crap to superb.
02:07:05 <alise> Baskerville is a subtle, old typeface; so it's a lot easier to get wrong.
02:07:10 <alise> And it certainly will never fit some works.
02:07:19 <AnMaster> alise, okay those straight-up lines in the B (you freaks probably have a special name for them) are much better than in the flow chart
02:07:21 <alise> But it's wonderful if tamed.
02:07:22 <AnMaster> nowhere as thick
02:07:39 <alise> You know, I could call you a freak for having a Linux/OpenGenera obsession.
02:07:44 <alise> Gregor: it's true.
02:07:50 <AnMaster> alise, indeed
02:08:03 <AnMaster> alise, and?
02:08:16 <pikhq> alise: My goodness Baskerville is a beaut.
02:08:38 <alise> AnMaster: The Baskerville in http://julianhansen.com/files/infographiclarge_v2.png is bold, by the way.
02:08:41 <alise> Just like all the other samples.
02:08:48 <alise> And, of course, it's crammed into very few pixels.
02:08:56 <alise> So it's understandable that it looks so ugly there.
02:09:12 <AnMaster> alise, that could explains why the more readable alternative to didot is in fact less readable
02:09:17 <alise> pikhq: The italic serifs are awesome.
02:09:18 <AnMaster> in that picture
02:09:23 <pikhq> alise: Yuh.
02:09:52 <AnMaster> alise, it doesn't look ugly there. Just unreadable for long text
02:09:58 <alise> AnMaster: Didot can be readable at very small pixel sizes because the renderer runs out of ways to make the horizontal lines ridiculously thin so it ends up making them more equal; you know, the reasonable thing to do.
02:09:59 <AnMaster> which is not the same as ugly
02:10:11 <alise> Well, yeah, setting a book in all-bold, low-resolution type would be dumb. :P
02:10:17 <AnMaster> yes
02:10:34 <AnMaster> alise, I wouldn't claim Zapfino is ugly. Yet I would claim it is unreadable for long text.
02:11:36 <alise> Zapfino is actually quite ugly though,
02:11:41 <alise> *though.
02:11:53 <AnMaster> alise, not compared to the alternative
02:12:02 <AnMaster> and I don't think it is excessively ugly
02:12:05 <AnMaster> nice for logos in factr
02:12:07 <AnMaster> fact*
02:12:44 <alise> Gregor: amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv is a joke, right?
02:12:50 <alise> yeah
02:12:51 <alise> book burning
02:12:52 <alise> http://www.amazinggracebaptistchurchkjv.com/Download99.html
02:13:03 <Gregor> alise: It's never clear :P
02:13:04 <pikhq> If you want a vaguely calligraphic logo, *hire a bloody calligrapher*.
02:13:18 <pikhq> I guarantee it'll look better than whatever calligraphic font you find.
02:14:08 <AnMaster> alise, what do you think of Myriad?
02:14:28 <alise> AnMaster: It's... Apple Sans. It's a nice font, but...
02:14:34 <alise> You can never, ever use it without someone thinking "oh, Apple".
02:14:45 <AnMaster> how can it be Apple Sans=
02:14:50 <AnMaster> s/=/?/
02:14:53 <AnMaster> they renamed it?
02:14:57 <alise> Apple use it for everything.
02:15:05 <alise> All the headings on their site, the "iPod" in their adverts, ...
02:15:06 <AnMaster> I couldn't tell
02:15:06 <AnMaster> :P
02:15:07 <alise> Everything.
02:15:13 <AnMaster> alise, I'm unable to tell that
02:15:25 <AnMaster> alise, that Eurostile looks nice
02:15:33 <AnMaster> reminds me of startrek logos hehe
02:15:50 <alise> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/EurostileSpec.svg
02:15:56 <alise> Proletariats are futuristic.
02:16:16 <AnMaster> not quite as much in that image
02:16:42 <AnMaster> alise, Metro looks funky
02:17:24 <AnMaster> Bodoni makes me think of Discworld. Think there was a dwarf with that name in "The Truth" (working at that press)
02:17:25 <nooga> Eple Sons
02:18:03 <AnMaster> alise, what is the type face used for the non-typeface boxes in that flow shart
02:18:09 <AnMaster> like the choices and the middle box
02:18:33 <alise> The answer is in the flowchart.
02:19:00 <AnMaster> alise, where?
02:19:05 <AnMaster> oh
02:19:30 <AnMaster> why would anyone use OCR
02:19:44 <AnMaster> as a font I mean
02:19:46 <alise> Terminator!
02:20:00 <AnMaster> alise, I watched that movie once. Several years ago
02:20:04 <AnMaster> I don't remember any fonts
02:20:30 <alise> Typeface, dammit, typeface.
02:20:48 <AnMaster> alise, font is shorter to type that typeface
02:20:53 <AnMaster> anyway
02:21:11 <alise> "face"
02:21:25 <AnMaster> alise, in your face!
02:21:28 <AnMaster> but yes that would work
02:21:44 <AnMaster> except I would seem like a typography geek then
02:21:47 <AnMaster> and I don't want that
02:21:52 <AnMaster> ;P
02:22:04 <alise> The term is "typophile". ;)
02:24:45 <Gregor> I'm a typochondriac.
02:41:32 <AnMaster> Gregor, :D
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03:20:38 <alise> "For containers, there is a lot to say. So, I will not say anything for the moment."
03:22:05 <pikhq> Hah.
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03:25:08 <nooga> how to set up ssh so that the user connects with a chrooted jail instead of main system hosting sshd?
03:26:54 <Gregor> nooga: Run sshd in the chroot
03:27:00 <Gregor> (Duh! :P )
03:27:02 <nooga> that's what i thought
03:28:11 <nooga> chrooted system runs using a 80MB ramdisk :D
03:29:24 <Gregor> I've been trying to get a Debian chroot on my phone.
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03:50:49 <alise> stallman calls iphone/ipad igroan/ibad
03:50:50 <alise> news at 11
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04:08:05 <Gregor> Ooooooh, I may actually have a working Debian chroot 8-D
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04:08:27 <Gregor> Again, ctrl+w != shift+w
04:09:45 <Gregor> What's a good WM for a very constrained screen size?
04:18:01 <alise> Gregor: dwm
04:18:04 <alise> or ratpoison
04:18:50 <Gregor> What's a good WM for a very constrained screen size WITH NO KEYBOARD
04:19:42 <pikhq> Suicide.
04:19:48 <pikhq> It's painless!
04:20:08 <Gregor> I don't want to use Matchbox just because you're all useless :P
04:21:02 <pikhq> On a more serious note: how do you feel about Twm?
04:21:55 <Gregor> I use twm pretty much whenever I can't have XFCE.
04:22:08 <Gregor> But that would suck for a constrained screen.
04:23:04 <pikhq> Hmm. Get a keyboard?
04:23:21 <pikhq> Actually. Are there any mouse-driven tiling WMs?
04:23:24 <pikhq> And if not, why not?
04:23:48 <Gregor> A thing I've checked in the past.
04:23:53 <Gregor> There aren't, and it's bizarre that there aren't.
04:23:58 <pikhq> Very well then.
04:24:04 <pikhq> Gregor, you've got another project!
04:24:10 <Gregor> NO U
04:24:14 <pikhq> You really need a patron.
04:24:17 <Gregor> I'm hypothetically adding VFS to Microcosm.
04:24:21 <Gregor> I DO need a patron.
04:24:28 <pikhq> I
04:24:38 <pikhq> I'd offer, but I suspect I have fewer funds available than you.
04:24:52 <Gregor> I have loads of money, but can a person really have ENOUGH money?
04:24:59 <pikhq> Yes.
04:25:04 <pikhq> Bill Gates has enough money.
04:26:26 <Gregor> I don't think Bill Gates has sufficient money to shuttle himself to the moon for a summer vacation.
04:27:21 <oerjan> stop there, before you start using diagonalization on the question
04:29:16 <pikhq> Hmm. How much would a moon mission cost?
04:29:30 <pikhq> More than $13 billion?
04:29:59 <Gregor> For a month or so of just hangin' out on the moon?
04:30:09 <pikhq> I think for that he could just about pay to have Apollo rebuilt and launched.
04:30:11 <Gregor> It's not a vacation if you go there, collect some rocks, hit a golf ball, and come back.
04:32:58 <alise> Gregor: It isn't?
04:33:53 <Gregor> You've gotta have some time to relax poolside!
04:37:56 <pikhq> Y
04:38:01 <alise> Sea of Tranquility!
04:38:03 <pikhq> 'know what has enough money?
04:38:10 <pikhq> The US Department of Defense.
04:38:39 <pikhq> We should convince them that there's oil on the moon so we can set up a military base there.
04:39:03 <pikhq> It'll be permanently settled until the Moon ceases to be.
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04:49:59 <coppro> lol
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04:57:00 <alise> http://abstrusegoose.com/strips/oh_but_they_do_give_quite_alotta_fucks.PNG
05:03:38 <pikhq> Hrm. What's with the Chinese signature?
05:05:50 <Gregor> Shockingly, this phone does not make an ideal Debian system ...
05:06:09 <pikhq> Shocking. Positively shocking.
05:15:03 <alise> G'night.
05:15:20 <alise> Bye.
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07:55:35 <kabatta> hello
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12:25:43 <AnMaster> haha, I love the last xkcd
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12:40:59 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, yeah.
12:41:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Although it's just a specific case of poor website design.
12:43:42 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well yes
12:44:04 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, but as one who have searched for course lists on my university website a LOT...
12:44:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Most commercial sites do that as well.
12:44:25 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well they tend to have some "product list" easily available
12:44:29 <AnMaster> at least those I visit
12:44:40 <AnMaster> which might not be a lot of consumer products
12:44:50 <AnMaster> now, contact info, might be harder
12:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> I had a horrible time trying to find contact info for Conway a while ago.
12:45:18 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, his game of life?
12:45:25 <AnMaster> or some other conway?
12:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> The address Princeton finally gave had been deactivated.
12:45:34 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, the very same.
12:45:40 <AnMaster> ah
12:46:35 <AnMaster> I want a symbolics keyboard, with the usb mod
12:46:38 <AnMaster> yes that exists
12:46:48 <AnMaster> I seen a picture of someone modifying it to connect over usb
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12:49:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Evidently the designer had a thing for modifier keys.
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14:16:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk!
14:16:31 <Flonk> thats me!
14:18:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Where did you ask Sgeo that question in the first place?
14:20:39 <Flonk> what question?
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14:22:40 <Phantom_Hoover> The one about DCs or somesuch.
14:23:19 <Flonk> I only asked about it here on #esoteric
14:25:21 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought he told you to come here.
14:25:54 <Flonk> oh, right, I asked if someone could help me with C++ on #IRP, and he redirected me to here
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14:35:58 <AnMaster> DCs? as in Data Centers?
14:37:06 <Phantom_Hoover> No, some Windows GUI thing.
14:50:14 <AnMaster> wtf. I used genera a bit too much recently, I wondered why delete didn't work. Delete acts like backspace there and backspace acts like left-arrow
14:50:28 <AnMaster> result: when it didn't work in linux first thought was "wtf, computer is frozen"
14:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Interesting.
15:00:56 <Phantom_Hoover> So what actually made Lisp machines so amazing?
15:16:12 <nooga> they were powerful workstations
15:33:52 <AnMaster> does anyone know zzo's web server?
15:33:55 <AnMaster> I need the url
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16:56:14 <alise> hi pikhq
16:56:22 <pikhq> Hello
16:57:14 <alise> http://www.cacaovm.org/ Huh, /another/ free JVM.
17:06:21 <alise> Dooby dooby doo.
17:07:43 <alise> So so so.
17:08:11 <alise> 02:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Kurt Gödel looks delightfully evil...
17:08:11 <alise> 02:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> He would be an ideal candidate for a Halloween costume.
17:08:15 <alise> I'm afraid he's dead.
17:08:33 <alise> 04:18:30 <AnMaster> vrml. How does one view it? For historical computing purposes.
17:08:33 <alise> 04:19:08 <AnMaster> tools available to me are: opengenera, ubuntu 7.10, ubuntu 10.04, current arch linux
17:08:38 <alise> yeah opengenera came with a vrml viewer.
17:08:45 <alise> from the FUTURE.
17:19:15 <alise> On Perl 6: "I have never heard of a piece of software whose memory consumption dropped by 96% and startup time by 98% from the first alpha release to the first production release. That's what it would take to match perl5."
17:19:28 <alise> Looks like Rakudo Star is more like Rakudo LAME. :|
17:19:41 <alise> :P
17:26:10 <AnMaster> alise, it did? I haven't found it then
17:26:26 <alise> AnMaster: From the FUTURE.
17:26:32 <AnMaster> alise, riiiight
17:26:46 <AnMaster> alise, cl-http server contains vrml examples though
17:26:47 <AnMaster> so...
17:26:49 <AnMaster> explain that
17:26:50 <alise> AnMaster: Hey, could you clone the vm, change the password then put up the files somewhere?
17:26:57 <alise> Rather than making us poor people go through the setup instructions >_>
17:27:17 <AnMaster> alise, do you have a license?
17:27:22 <alise> Yes.
17:27:26 <AnMaster> alise, show it
17:27:32 <alise> Show yours :)
17:27:43 <AnMaster> hah
17:27:52 <AnMaster> alise, I can't, you could steal it then
17:28:11 <alise> Just put a file in it saying "This can only be used if you legally own an OpenGenera license!" That provides you the same legal protection as anything (i.e. barely anything) :P
17:28:36 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I need to redo the VM. I did several things wrong. Oh and I keep the sys.sct directory in hg now
17:28:43 <alise> Why? XD
17:28:46 <AnMaster> alise, makes reverting stupid things easier
17:28:59 <AnMaster> needed it a few times when I messed up
17:29:05 <AnMaster> better than reinstalling
17:29:15 <alise> I feel like using QEMU will be better than VirtualBox. VirtualBox is for emulating more conventional stuff without much ... you know, techy tweaking junk.
17:29:26 <alise> I'd say Bochs, but Bochs emulates at like half a Hz.
17:29:26 <AnMaster> alise, qemu is slower
17:29:36 <alise> AnMaster: More realistic, for OpenGenera :-)
17:29:48 <pikhq> alise: Bochs is faster than *that*...
17:30:01 <AnMaster> alise, anyway I have no clue if this VM will work on OSE virtualbox
17:30:02 <pikhq> Still, it's not exactly speedy.
17:30:09 <AnMaster> alise, oh and I have nowhere I could put 2.4 GB
17:30:09 <alise> pikhq: Sorry; three quarters of a hz.
17:30:15 <AnMaster> which is what df -h in the VM reports
17:30:19 <alise> Whence the 2.4 GiB?
17:30:25 <alise> AnMaster: inaccurate
17:30:29 <alise> VirtualBox lazily allocates disk
17:30:31 <AnMaster> alise, ubuntu mostly.
17:30:36 <alise> most of that won't actually be on your disk, I bet.
17:30:41 <AnMaster> alise, correct. The actual image is larger
17:30:42 <alise> Unless you mean used.
17:30:47 <AnMaster> due to deleted files
17:30:50 <AnMaster> alise, yes I meant used
17:30:58 <alise> Oh well. Link me to your guide -- is it the Moast Korrekt version?
17:31:20 <AnMaster> alise, perhaps. I haven't documented getting hardcopy with cups-pdf though.
17:31:27 <AnMaster> alise, reason is that it only works partly
17:31:34 <AnMaster> like, you must disable cover page
17:31:35 <alise> I don't care about that.
17:31:39 <AnMaster> ah
17:32:04 <alise> Incidentally, this is the craziest chain of emulation ever: VM running x86 Ubuntu running a Tru64 Unix on Alpha emulator running Genera.
17:32:08 <AnMaster> alise, while http://sprunge.us/fAfd is correct afaik, there could be errors
17:32:13 <alise> And Genera is an operating system in and of itself.
17:32:16 <AnMaster> and I have not proof read it much
17:32:28 <alise> That's alright, I can sling it.
17:32:30 <AnMaster> I did single pass with aspell
17:32:37 <AnMaster> caught one error only
17:33:04 <alise> Anyway, I think DKS is such a rabid salesman that he can't get angry at people downloading it.
17:33:17 <alise> dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET:
17:33:17 <alise> Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com.
17:33:19 <alise> -- comment on the torrent
17:33:33 <alise> Just another opportunity for a sale1
17:33:34 <alise> *sale!
17:33:41 <alise> I think he realises nobody's going to buy Open Genera anyway.
17:33:47 <AnMaster> alise, oh and to load cl-http, when everything else in there is done do: Load System CL-HTTP
17:33:50 <AnMaster> that won't load config
17:34:01 <AnMaster> you will get 500 Internal Error after that
17:34:04 <alise> AnMaster: *splurts drink everywhere*
17:34:04 <AnMaster> either that or 404
17:34:05 <alise> The VLM is a product for DEC Alpha / Tru64 Unix. There are experimental VLM versions for Linux/x64 and, newer, Mac OS X (x64).
17:34:15 <alise> Oh my god oh my god oh my god.
17:34:19 <alise> there's a native 64-bit linux version
17:34:22 <alise> must buy
17:34:22 <AnMaster> alise, where is that from?
17:34:22 <alise> must buy
17:34:23 <alise> must buy
17:34:31 <AnMaster> alise, um. that Linux/x64 is the one I used
17:34:31 <alise> andrewnth: http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/c8sjz/what_are_your_favorite_and_mostused_cl_projects/c0qxfjv
17:34:36 <alise> andrewnth: no
17:34:37 <AnMaster> they mean x86-64 of course
17:34:38 <alise> AnMaster: no
17:34:38 <andrewnth> :<
17:34:41 <alise> you're using the tru64 version
17:34:44 <alise> andrewnth: change your nick :|
17:34:52 <AnMaster> alise, it is running in a x86-64 VM though
17:34:52 <alise> AnMaster: emulated on linux/64
17:34:54 <AnMaster> ah
17:34:56 <AnMaster> perhaps
17:34:58 <alise> AnMaster: yes, but it's another layer of emulation
17:35:01 <andrewnth> alise, okay i'll change it
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17:35:03 <alise> this VLM is a native emulator for 64-bit linux
17:35:05 <andynth> better? ;)
17:35:09 <alise> you could just run it in a chroot
17:35:16 <alise> andynth: it's more the starting letters that are bothersome :D
17:35:26 <alise> there, fixed
17:35:29 <alise> last-spoke order for nick completion now
17:35:43 <alise> AnMaster: so actually my chain of emulation was wrong, if it's Virtual Lisp Machine (VLM)
17:35:50 <AnMaster> alise, what?
17:36:01 <alise> Incidentally, this is the craziest chain of emulation ever: VM running x86 Ubuntu running a Tru64 Unix on Alpha emulator running Genera on a Symbolics Lisp Machine.
17:36:14 <alise> Open Genera doesn't run natively on Tru64 Unix; it emulates a Lisp Machine. VLM, Virtual Lisp Machine.
17:36:14 <AnMaster> x86-64
17:36:19 <alise> "The VLM is a product for DEC Alpha / Tru64 Unix."
17:36:20 <AnMaster> thank you very much
17:36:22 <alise> AnMaster: Er, right.
17:36:44 <AnMaster> alise, besides I don't know if the source to snap4 is public
17:36:47 <AnMaster> I don't think so
17:36:47 <alise> Incidentally, this is the craziest chain of emulation ever: VM running x86-64 Ubuntu running a Tru64 Unix on Alpha emulator running Genera on a Symbolics Lisp Machine.
17:37:02 <alise> AnMaster: My point is: You're running /three layers of emulation/.
17:37:03 <alise> :D
17:37:10 <AnMaster> alise, I'm well aware
17:37:20 <alise> No, we thought it ran Genera natively on Tru64.
17:37:24 <alise> Not emulating a Lisp Machine.
17:37:27 <AnMaster> err no
17:37:29 <AnMaster> I didn't
17:37:38 <AnMaster> what I did think was that we skipped the Tru64 step
17:37:38 <alise> Okay, you're misunderstanding.
17:37:58 <alise> I don't /think/ we do.
17:38:02 <AnMaster> alise, I read open genera docs. It mentions emulation
17:38:09 <alise> ...Anyway, with the x86-64 Linux VLM we could just run it in a chroot.
17:38:13 <alise> For, you know, moar speed.
17:38:22 <AnMaster> alise, but you _don't_ wan't to mess up your system with NFS and NIS
17:38:23 <alise> And better mouse/keyboard stuffs.
17:38:31 <AnMaster> that is _why_ you want a VM
17:38:37 <alise> AnMaster: Just serve it on a random port on just
17:38:37 <AnMaster> but sure, skipping that would be nice
17:38:44 <AnMaster> alise, do you have a url though?
17:39:18 <alise> to what?
17:39:24 <alise> "For example in the snap4 version some arithmetic is broken and GC plus I/O often leads to crashes. Brad has fixed the complex arithmetic, but the error on the Genera side with GC has not been fixed yet." --lispm
17:39:27 <AnMaster> the x86-64 VLM
17:39:31 <alise> AnMaster: It's commercial software.
17:39:35 <alise> You buy it. From Symbolics.
17:39:39 <alise> An experimental release.
17:39:41 <alise> Well.
17:39:42 <AnMaster> I know that the arithmetic is broken in part
17:39:44 <AnMaster> I noticed it
17:39:50 <alise> They might give it away for a reduced price, of course, since it's an experimental release.
17:40:01 <alise> If you're REALLY smooth with the ladies^W^W^W you might be able to get it free.
17:40:04 <AnMaster> alise, I would like a link to the snap5 then
17:40:16 <alise> AnMaster: Contact D.K.Schmidt.
17:40:19 <alise> You'll probably get a quote.
17:40:22 <alise> *D. K. Schmidt.
17:40:23 <AnMaster> alise, XD
17:40:30 <AnMaster> wrong guy for snap4/5
17:40:36 <alise> sales@symbolics-dks.com
17:40:37 <alise> AnMaster: no
17:40:43 <alise> the contact is D. K. Schmidt
17:40:47 <alise> he handles all communication
17:40:56 <AnMaster> alise, I was pretty sure it was a third party project
17:40:57 <alise> "Send bug reports to Kalman Reti at reti@symbolics-dks.com" -- but it's a known, fixed bug, so.
17:41:00 <AnMaster> snap4 that is
17:41:00 <alise> AnMaster: Nope.
17:41:04 <alise> AnMaster: It's a Symbolics project.
17:41:15 <AnMaster> alise, they are a god damn shell company!
17:41:27 <alise> AnMaster: Well, they still develop.
17:41:33 <AnMaster> alise, anyway, if you buy it, send me a copy
17:41:42 <alise> Do you have a license?
17:41:46 <alise> Show me it.
17:41:49 <AnMaster> do you care?
17:42:06 <alise> No, but you're depriving me. :)
17:42:25 <AnMaster> huh?
17:42:31 <alise> Of the VM.
17:42:40 <alise> In which Stanislav uses Open Genera on a real Symbolics Tru64 Alpha machine: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=186.
17:42:46 <AnMaster> alise, I have nowhere to put 2.4 GB
17:42:50 <AnMaster> and I have slow ADSL upload
17:43:05 <AnMaster> reverse engineering the whole thing would take less time!
17:43:32 <alise> Error 503 Service Unavailable
17:43:32 <alise> Service Unavailable
17:43:32 <alise> Guru Meditation:
17:43:32 <alise> XID: 959894884
17:43:32 <alise> Varnish
17:43:34 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
17:43:34 <alise> Dammit, T.P.B.
17:43:40 <alise> AnMaster: At least seed the torrent :P
17:43:46 <AnMaster> alise, hm I could
17:43:54 <AnMaster> alise, will take a few minutes
17:43:57 <AnMaster> to get that ready
17:44:10 <AnMaster> I guess I could somehow import the file into ktorrent
17:44:12 <AnMaster> got it years ago
17:44:14 <AnMaster> year*
17:44:15 <alise> Last time I downloaded it it ran at like 1 KiB/s.
17:44:29 <alise> AnMaster: Yeah: download the .torrent file, tell it to download where the file already is.
17:44:33 <alise> ( http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp )
17:44:33 <AnMaster> alise, /msg me the url to the torrent
17:44:38 <alise> Too late.
17:44:44 <alise> Well, I did /msg you; just a lot of other people, too.
17:45:51 * AnMaster scps the file
17:46:00 <alise> AnMaster: I don't suppose you're the peer I'm downloading from at 600 KiB/s, are you.
17:46:25 <alise> AnMaster: scps what? o_O
17:46:49 <AnMaster> alise, opengenera2.tar.bz2 from laptop to desktop
17:47:03 <AnMaster> since I don't have port forwarding set up on laptop
17:47:07 <AnMaster> alise, and seeding now
17:47:35 * AnMaster looks at the kick peer and ban peer options
17:47:41 <AnMaster> alise, I always wondered what those did
17:47:51 <AnMaster> and what the difference was
17:48:01 <AnMaster> alise, oh I expect you to seed this to a ratio of 2 then
17:48:25 <alise> I'm sure collectively, all the times I start Transmission and then take a second to pause it, it will eventually add up to 2. >_>
17:48:34 <alise> I am the reason democracy doesn't work!
17:48:39 <alise> No, really, I will seed it.
17:48:40 <AnMaster> alise, hey 64 % already
17:48:44 <AnMaster> you are downloading fast
17:48:47 <alise> 72%.
17:48:52 <alise> You are looking at the wrong guy.
17:48:55 <alise> 75%...
17:49:01 <alise> Almost 800 KiB/s download. Pretty nice.
17:49:06 <alise> Oop, went down there.
17:49:08 <AnMaster> alise, some very very fast other peer then
17:49:19 <alise> Yeah; I'm getting 400-600 KiB/s from them.
17:49:31 <alise> Someone else using Transmission.
17:49:36 <AnMaster> hm
17:49:48 <AnMaster> could be D, K. Smitch (sp?) himself? ;P
17:50:03 <AnMaster> domain name pointer UNCLE-ENZO.MIT.EDU.
17:50:27 <AnMaster> alise, are you seeding now?
17:50:31 <alise> AnMaster: Host Name: UNCLE-ENZO.MIT.EDU
17:50:40 <alise> So it's that legendary university internet.
17:50:40 <AnMaster> alise, see above
17:50:47 <alise> I'm seeding to 0 people. Blame them.
17:50:55 <AnMaster> alise, well keep it ready there
17:51:00 <AnMaster> I seeded this when people hadn't got it
17:51:06 <AnMaster> so I'm done seeding for now
17:51:51 <alise> Tell you what, I'll seed aliseOS to you when it's out. :P
17:52:39 <alise> AnMaster: Nobody likes me enough to take my seed.
17:52:46 <AnMaster> alise, I have a better idea, since it will take less time
17:52:47 <alise> Uh... that was an awkward way to say that.
17:52:51 <AnMaster> XD
17:53:01 <AnMaster> alise, seed DNF when it is out
17:53:09 <AnMaster> will take MUCH less time
17:53:13 <alise> Or Chinese Democracy! Wait... that /did/ come out.
17:53:14 <AnMaster> than waiting for aliseOS
17:53:24 <AnMaster> alise, out of china yes
17:53:32 <alise> I mean the album. :P
17:54:30 <AnMaster> oh I never heard of that
17:55:05 <alise> Guns N' Roses released Use Your Illusion I & II in 1991, then toured for something like a few billion years, then finally released Chinese Democracy, promised since 1992, at the end of 2008.
17:55:13 <alise> It's more about the ridiculously long wait and anticipation than the music.
17:55:55 <alise> It took longer than DNF took to die; so, yeah.
17:56:01 <alise> Whoa, apparently someone picked up the DNF torch.
17:56:07 <alise> Developer(s) 3D Realms (1997–)
17:56:07 <alise> Unknown external developer (2009–)
17:57:23 <alise> http://nedroid.com/comics/2010-07-26-bonustholomew.gif
18:04:56 <Gregor> This spam has introduced me to my new favorite word ever:
18:04:58 <Gregor> Lesbimans!
18:06:08 <alise> Is that a ... lesbian ... man?
18:06:49 <Gregor> I don't know!
18:06:52 <Gregor> But it's my favorite word ever.
18:07:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:07:36 <alise> AnMaster: Why doesn't it work with newer Ubuntus, again?
18:09:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Something with the X server, wasn't it?
18:10:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Looking through zzo's site is weird...
18:10:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?).
18:10:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:11:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Weird or AWESOME?
18:11:47 <alise> AnMaster: :|
18:12:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, just the images directory is weird.
18:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> The Chronojournal has been spammed so much it's not even funny.
18:14:11 <AnMaster> alise, see further down
18:14:14 <AnMaster> where it says XIO
18:14:29 <AnMaster> alise, I tried the first 8.x version
18:14:31 <alise> AnMaster: I am an orphan and consequently unable to read )(
18:14:47 <AnMaster> alise, well then what I write here has no use either.
18:14:55 <alise> My computer reads words to me
18:14:55 <AnMaster> since you can't read IRC either
18:14:57 <alise> But only here
18:15:03 <alise> In other places there is no talking
18:15:04 <AnMaster> bbl driving practise
18:15:07 <alise> All I see are pictures. Sometimes they are nice
18:24:12 <nooga> driving practie?
18:26:09 <alise> Praktie.
18:27:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Precis?
18:39:31 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:40:13 <alise> I wonder how much RAM Open Genera needs.
18:41:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
18:42:10 <oerjan> yo
18:42:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, does anyone else think writing a Lisp OS that can run on modern hardware is a sensible idea?
18:42:33 <Phantom_Hoover> s/sensible/cool/
18:42:33 <alise> The Loper guy.
18:42:37 <alise> You mean apart from me? Or apart from you?
18:42:55 <oerjan> 09:08:11 <alise> 02:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> He would be an ideal candidate for a Halloween costume.
18:42:59 <oerjan> 09:08:15 <alise> I'm afraid he's dead.
18:43:05 <alise> I think it's a good idea -- well, not Lisp, but the same idea as Lisp Machine O-- anyway, yes; the Loper OS guy [warning: controversial half-crank, but clever]; me; ...
18:43:06 <oerjan> that is not _necessary_ a disadvantage.
18:43:10 <alise> oerjan: xD
18:43:24 <Phantom_Hoover> I may try that this October.
18:43:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps someone will get it.
18:43:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: make sure it can persist lisp objects rather than a silly filesystem!
18:43:50 <oerjan> *ily
18:44:12 <alise> now how much ram does open genera need
18:44:15 <alise> ehh
18:44:17 <alise> I have 4 GiB
18:44:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that will probably be enough.
18:44:46 <alise> yeah :P
18:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Given that it was designed for what, 90s hardware?
18:44:50 <alise> I'll give the vm the default
18:44:52 <alise> 384 MiB
18:44:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: much less
18:44:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 80s hardware
18:45:05 <alise> but it has to run ubuntu, running an Alpha emulator, running a Lisp Machine emulator, running Genera
18:45:07 <alise> so there is overhead
18:45:11 <alise> but 384 should be plenty. absolutely plenty.
18:45:29 <pikhq> alise: That's a lot of layers.
18:45:32 <alise> "You should have a 300 mHz or greater Alpha workstation with at least
18:45:32 <alise> 500 MB RAM, 4 MB cache and 1 GB of available disk space."
18:45:33 <alise> Never mind.
18:45:37 <alise> I'll give it 512 MiB.
18:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> It's like an onion.
18:45:50 <alise> This is probably excessive, but dammit, I have over 3 GiB free.
18:46:05 <oerjan> thos pesky millihertz
18:46:09 <oerjan> *those
18:46:15 <alise> Failed to create a new virtual machine Open Genera.
18:46:15 <alise> Runtime error: -102 (File not found.).
18:46:16 <alise> Abuh.
18:46:37 <alise> Oh, it uninstalled VirtualBox.
18:46:37 <alise> Heh.
18:47:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, if you do make a Lisp OS: You are awesome. If you make a Lisp OS that, instead of a filesystem, automatically persists the Lisp objects in the system with a certain marker on them -- say, with a "persist" flag set -- to disk, and automatically reloads them on bootup (note: this is /easier/ than implementing a filesystem) -- you are quadruply awesome and should breed immediately.
18:48:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it's a lovely idea, but I enjoy programming, and as such am a terrible developer.
18:48:48 <alise> Yeah, x86-64 is a drag.
18:49:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The main issue is the Lisp implementation.
18:49:11 <alise> You don't really want to write it in C because then you get all the baggage of, you know, C, which is sort of against the point.
18:49:21 <pikhq> BitC!
18:49:21 <alise> But writing a JIT compiler in assembly? [suicide.]
18:49:40 <pikhq> JIT... Assembly... (seppuku)
18:49:40 <alise> Or... LowLevelLisp macro DSL in whatever Lisp you are implementing!
18:49:42 <nooga> in fack
18:49:45 <nooga> fact
18:49:46 <alise> In fack!
18:50:08 <nooga> writing jit compiler in assembly is not so hard
18:50:28 <alise> Yeah, but... not for us high-level guys.
18:50:30 <nooga> esepcially if you're targetting simple processors without MMU and other useless shit
18:50:34 <alise> Whoa, VirtualBox supports EFI.
18:50:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, use an existing CL (or Scheme) compiler and modify it?
18:50:38 <alise> nooga: x86-64 :P
18:50:41 <nooga> ah
18:50:46 <nooga> then it's suicide
18:50:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Those will be heavily existing-OS-oriented.
18:51:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You could base it on Movitz, but nobody likes Movitz.
18:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, hmm.
18:51:54 <nooga> http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/160/c/5/Talk_to_Me_1_by_humon.jpg :D
18:52:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, can we not bother with x86-32?
18:53:08 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No point to support it for a new OS.
18:53:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: 64-bit is very helpful because you can map the entire object space to address space.
18:53:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Yay!
18:53:37 <alise> So, say, some large 64-bit pointer will actually be a serialised object on disk, but of course this is transparently handled.
18:53:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, also, you have actual, proper GPRs.
18:53:49 <alise> That way you don't have to actually directly deal with mapping things; it can be transparent, in the paging.
18:54:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, it means that you have more space for type tags.
18:54:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, indeed.
18:54:34 <alise> So if you identify, say, 10 types in a tag, that's four bits, so you still get 60 bits.
18:54:44 <alise> And today's CPUs don't even /use/ all 60 bits to look up memory.
18:54:57 <alise> Although IIRC there's some restriction on the higher bits; pikhq?
18:54:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, risky
18:55:00 <alise> But you can always use the lower bits.
18:55:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, I don't mean just pass that pointer.
18:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, sign-extended.
18:55:12 <alise> Obviously if it's a pointer, you >> 4.
18:55:14 <alise> Then look it up.
18:55:23 <alise> So you tag the lower bits.
18:55:25 <alise> Which is safe.
18:55:42 <alise> No?
18:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, an instruction for each memory access seems wasteful.
18:56:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Nah, not really.
18:56:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Memory access is very slow compared to CPU anyway.
18:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OTOH there's CCL's strategy, which is to align all objects.
18:56:43 <alise> So the overhead is unnoticeable.
18:56:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That also works, yes, but you probably want more than just integers vs objects.
18:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, CCL get something like 7 tag bits.
18:57:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Booleans, characters, symbols... identifying these in the pointer is useful.
18:57:18 <alise> Especially type of number, since that makes polymorphic arithmetic a lot quicker.
18:57:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, so it aligns it even more.
18:57:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That's 3 bits, so...
18:58:03 -!- Flonk_ has joined.
18:58:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That would work, yes.
18:58:15 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Probably the best idea.
18:58:23 <nooga> are there some papers about machine lisp?
18:58:33 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, they're probably boring.
18:58:43 <nooga> why not implement machine lisp on some spartan core
18:59:16 <alise> machine lisp on lisp machine core.
18:59:38 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:59:40 <nooga> uhh
18:59:42 <nooga> i meant
18:59:43 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk.
19:00:18 <nooga> lisp machine on FPGA
19:00:31 <alise> i know
19:00:35 <alise> fpga is slow though :D
19:00:41 <nooga> mmmm
19:00:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: do you have project ADHD?
19:00:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, to a degree.
19:01:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: dammit.
19:01:03 <alise> I almost got excited.
19:01:22 <nooga> probably emulating lisp machine on x86 is slow as well
19:01:29 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OTOH I've never actually done a project with anyone else's knowledge.
19:02:02 <alise> I guess I can help with everything that isn't actually writing assembly.
19:02:09 <alise> "Organising an object model in memory" is my idea of fun.
19:03:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Can we abstract the hard drive away entirely?
19:04:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Of course.
19:04:34 <Phantom_Hoover> AWESOME
19:04:46 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Basically, every allocated object gets a unique position in address space. Obviously. The thing is, this does not correlate to physical memory.
19:04:54 <alise> You can get addresses in the very high numbers, theoretically.
19:04:55 <alise> Now.
19:05:03 <alise> In the Lisp, in the object system underlying everything or whatever we have,
19:05:08 <alise> Every object has a flag -- "persist".
19:05:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Surely we want to move oft-used objects into memory?
19:05:15 <alise> Yes.
19:05:17 <alise> If it is set, then every N intervals,
19:05:23 <alise> It is saved to disk with its address.
19:05:31 <alise> Whenever an object is used, it is loaded into RAM (or at least, if it can all be).
19:05:44 <alise> Objects that have not been used for a while give way to new objects to be loaded.
19:05:52 <alise> Tada: We remove the filesystem, replace it with orthogonal object persistence, AND
19:05:54 <alise> objects never change addresses
19:05:57 <alise> even over boots.
19:06:10 <alise> Also, you can't lose data more than N intervals old if it's set to persist; it will reappear on the next boot.
19:06:17 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:06:28 <alise> So: You never have to touch the disk. All you ever do is set "persistent" and never have to worry.
19:06:35 <alise> Some reinitialisation to do with sockets, yes, but that's easy enough to handle.
19:07:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, if N is high you'd presumably want to be able to force storage.
19:07:38 <alise> N would not be high.
19:07:49 <alise> We'd keep a list of "dirty" (changed) objects, so the writes would never be large.
19:08:01 <alise> So we can do them, say, every .5 seconds.
19:08:09 <alise> It could be configurable from inside, I guess.
19:08:37 <alise> This is called "orthogonal" persistence. It is quite a well-known thing and has had a bit of research done.
19:08:38 <Phantom_Hoover> x86-64 has paging, doesn't it?
19:08:41 * Phantom_Hoover checks
19:08:45 <alise> Yes.
19:09:14 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what about fragmentation?
19:09:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In fact, I even suspect you could do deduplicative storage and thereby /version every change to a persisted object/. But that's much more theoretical, and harder.
19:09:22 <alise> Fragmentation on disk?
19:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
19:09:57 <Phantom_Hoover> When an object is GCed, presumably you remove it from the disc?
19:09:59 <alise> It's not a huge problem any more, what with the speed of disks and the rising popularity of SSDs. While this is a toy, of course it will never make a difference; when it becomes practical... well, that'll take so long we'll all be using SSDs anyway.
19:10:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but an object with the persist flag set is never GC'd.
19:10:27 <alise> We don't serialise every old object (you can almost do this automatically, but again that's much more theoretical)
19:10:42 <pikhq> One could presumably design the OS based around having both an SSD and a platter.
19:10:54 <alise> Yeah, but ... I'd just treat disk seeking as instant.
19:11:12 <alise> Remember, /all/ your RAM will be used to store all the objects it can.
19:11:28 <alise> Sure, it won't be totally optimal, but once SSDs become very popular (soon) it'll be just fine.
19:11:34 <alise> In fact, scheduling and the like on SSDs only hurts performance.
19:11:39 <alise> And since this would initially just be a toy, well...
19:11:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I am without an SSD, though.
19:12:04 <alise> So am I.
19:12:10 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: But are you going to do your everyday computing on this soon?
19:12:13 <alise> Unlikely.
19:12:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, NO AMBITION
19:12:26 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Aspire to own an SSD, then.
19:12:37 <alise> They'll be affordable in a few years, when this thing might actually be able to edit its own code. :P
19:13:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Quit: leaving).
19:13:16 <Phantom_Hoover> What about the bootloader and partitions?
19:13:34 <alise> You /could/ use GRUB... but if we're even not doing C, hell; just write our own.
19:13:38 <alise> We'll have to switch into long mode anyway.
19:13:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, make partitions and the bootloader lisp objects!
19:13:44 <alise> It's not hard to write a bootloader.
19:13:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: That makes no sense, good sir.
19:13:59 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, So?
19:14:13 <alise> Good point.
19:15:28 <alise> What; my processor doesn't do virtualisation.
19:15:28 <Phantom_Hoover> But it makes sense to a /degree/.
19:15:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So does banana-flavoured cheese.
19:15:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Nor mine, as far as I can tell.
19:15:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OMG
19:15:49 <alise> So I can't do 64-bit with VirtualBox. Bet QEMU can do it.
19:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> We must make that.
19:15:55 * alise barfs
19:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Using VB for writing bootloaders and such doesn't seem like such a good idea.
19:16:44 <alise> VirtualBox you mean?
19:16:47 <alise> Oh, I'm just trying Open Genera.
19:17:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: For actual OS development you usually want Bochs.
19:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course I mean VirtualBox. Writing bootloaders in Visual Basic is so stupid it's almost cool.
19:17:26 <alise> Slow as molasses, but you can do debug output and even some debugging (this is hellish).
19:17:43 <alise> So Bochs when shit is fucked up, QEMU when shit is cool.
19:21:37 <Phantom_Hoover> So are we writing our own bootloader or not?
19:22:22 <alise> Yeah. Wait ... are we coding /now/?
19:22:32 <alise> Hold up there boy, there's an awful lot of planning and procrastinating to do first! :D
19:23:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course.
19:23:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
19:24:07 <alise> Of course to the first question or the second statement?
19:24:48 <Phantom_Hoover> The second.
19:24:51 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We should probably decide on the actual Lisp. Proper Common Lisp would take 50 years to implement all the subtleties of Roman numeral formatting and LOOP and whatnot, so I'd suggest that that's out. But Scheme is ... not ideal for this, obviously.
19:24:59 <alise> Therefore I propose the obviously superior solution, that of designing our own dialect.
19:25:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Pleasepleaseplease tell me we don't have to use GAS.
19:25:15 <alise> Worked for the Symbolics guys!
19:25:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT.
19:25:21 <alise> I hate GAS.
19:25:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes!
19:25:33 <alise> What say you to yasm?
19:25:42 <alise> It's just like nasm, except BSD-licensed. :P
19:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep, that's good.
19:26:44 <alise> You're like me when I even had the necessary amount of self-delusion to convince myself to start big projects! And I LIKE that. :P
19:26:46 <Phantom_Hoover> So long as I don't have to grapple with AT&T indirection, I'm good.
19:27:48 <alise> So, presumably you know assembly; that's handy, as I ... don't, not more than the absolute basics.
19:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> So presumably the whole computer is the lisp image?
19:33:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Eh?
19:34:26 <Phantom_Hoover> That was a half-formed thought....
19:34:47 <alise> Quite.
19:35:54 <Phantom_Hoover> What do you have in mind for the dialect?
19:38:02 <alise> Nothing much; immutable conses, there's always a popular one. :P
19:40:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Immutable conses seem a bit weird for a low-level system.
19:41:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps, but actually mutating conses basically never comes up in code. Not in well-designed code, anyway.
19:41:44 <alise> And if you're iterating over that cons... /ouch/
19:41:50 <alise> Well, over the list with that cons in it.
19:42:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, true, but functions like nreverse can be useful.
19:42:26 <alise> Reversing a linked list is slow.
19:42:42 <Phantom_Hoover> But building a new one is slower, isn't it?
19:42:45 <alise> Perhaps you are correct.
19:43:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Erm, that's pretty much what you have to do.
19:43:14 <alise> Consider the structure of the cons cells.
19:43:31 <Phantom_Hoover> True, but you don't need to copy their contents.
19:43:34 <alise> First you have to iterate through all of them, to find the last element; save the car of the first node, set the car of the first node to the last one.
19:43:42 <alise> You end up copying all the values and changing the cars of all of them.
19:43:51 <alise> This won't be significantly faster than just creating new conses.
19:44:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, it works by changing the cdrs, though.
19:44:10 <alise> Besides, if we prioritised performance over safety...
19:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> The cars don't enter into it.
19:44:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, like that. That'd be even slower then, I think.
19:44:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, slower than making new versions of every cons?
19:44:50 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:44:55 <alise> Consing is fast, you know. :)
19:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I suppose...
19:45:54 <alise> Maybe you are right.
19:45:56 <alise> I don't know.
19:46:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH even Scheme doesn't have immutable conses.
19:46:12 <alise> But if we are not careful we could end up with "C++ -- the S-Expression edition".
19:46:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Racket does, by default.
19:46:31 <alise> (Previously, PLT "I Can't Believe It's Not R5RS" Scheme.)
19:46:42 <alise> Apparently this broke very few programs in the wild.
19:46:48 <oklopol> umm, alise, reversing a list by reversing the cdr's basically means copying integers around
19:46:53 <oklopol> why would it be slow
19:47:02 <alise> Of course, they just had to change it to m(cons|car|cdr|set-car!|set-cdr!).
19:47:12 <alise> oklopol: well, i never said it would be slow
19:47:15 <alise> just slower than the car method
19:47:17 <alise> more book keeping
19:47:19 <alise> unless i'm misunderstanding
19:47:24 <oklopol> "<alise> Phantom_Hoover: Ah, like that. That'd be even slower then, I think."
19:47:34 <alise> than the car method
19:47:41 <alise> oh, i see
19:47:43 <alise> never mind, then
19:47:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: anyway you can easily have a mutable cons type too
19:48:13 <oklopol> (more local to switch cdr's than car's)
19:48:14 <zzo38> Does yasm support 888ASM style syntax?
19:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I have a vague recollection that that's the defined behaviour...
19:48:17 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: obviously we should have some CLOS-style object system underpinning everything, if we want every object (well, apart from things like integers) to have a persist flag (and because it's generally useful)
19:48:20 <alise> multi-dispatch, definitely.
19:48:41 <alise> zzo38: probably not; they're not psychic, so they can't instantly know of and implement your new projects.
19:48:45 <alise> unless you've told them?
19:49:04 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought '(1 2 3) was technically immutable, while (list 1 2 3) is guaranteed mutable.
19:49:12 <zzo38> alise: Of course I know they are not psychic
19:49:34 <zzo38> But I mean, if the way the program works is sufficient to make 888ASM style syntax work
19:49:48 <alise> zzo38: I imagine if you modified the code...
19:49:58 <alise> zzo38: Or: defined a bunch of macros.
19:50:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: In Scheme? I don't know.
19:50:31 <alise> Let's not worry about what They do, anyway. :P
19:50:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A major blocker for this project will be the UI... because UIs suck >_>
19:50:50 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAA
19:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps we can advertise for a masochist?
19:51:36 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Do you need a UI?
19:51:44 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, no.
19:51:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But the old Lisp machines had them, so...
19:52:14 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, well, in a technical sense, yes. It's the "G" that sucks.
19:53:11 <AnMaster> hm, what was the relationship between quines and TCness. I seem to remember there was one.
19:53:12 <zzo38> Are you trying to make a Lisp machine?
19:53:23 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: We need /some/ interface.
19:53:36 <alise> AnMaster: all TC machines with sufficient output capabilities have quines (fixed-point theorem for turing machines)
19:53:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, of course.
19:53:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: A UI is an interface, not just a graphical one.
19:53:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, I'm sure we can come up with something.
19:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, O
19:53:59 <alise> That's hardly a current problem, anyway.
19:54:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Perhaps we can just make an scsh clone?
19:54:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I do suggest we use graphical capabilities, even for a linear interface like a command line. Because that lets us do things like images and stuff easily.
19:54:20 <alise> But that's no fun!
19:54:25 <alise> We want little persisted objects on the screen.
19:54:36 <zzo38> I don't know about Lisp machine, but for Forth it is easy to just make it display "ok" and allow any commands to be typed in at the "ok" prompt. For Lisp, I don't know, but I suppose you can do something
19:54:46 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, can we map the screen to a Lisp object?
19:55:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Everything is a Lisp object, dammit!
19:55:09 <Phantom_Hoover> That would be epic.
19:55:23 <alise> Even C has the screen as a C "object" (pointer).
19:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I thought the screen was done through port I/O.
19:55:53 <Phantom_Hoover> At least above a certain level.
19:56:00 <alise> No.
19:56:08 <alise> It's done via memory (controlled by the video card).
19:56:15 <alise> Okay, you can do fancy stuff by talking to the video card; but pixel blitting is memory.
19:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, that helps.
19:56:41 <alise> What helps?
19:56:44 <alise> Talking to the card?
19:56:50 <alise> Mostly unneeded unless you're doing complicated graphics.
19:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> No, mmappedness.
19:56:55 <alise> Ah.
19:56:58 <alise> Well, it's mapped from the card.
19:57:30 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I was about to say "we don't even have to support USB", but the PS/2 emulation is done by the BIOS and you can't talk to the BIOS in long mode; plus it's so slow why would you want to?.
19:57:43 <alise> But USB is easy.
19:57:53 <alise> And VMs can do PS/2 mice and keyboards to start with :P
20:01:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OK, so the text UI is done with mmapping?
20:01:25 <alise> You are confused:
20:01:30 <alise> VGA text mode is done with mmapping.
20:01:34 <alise> So is video mode in everything.
20:01:39 <alise> (Simple blitting video mode.)
20:01:49 <alise> Here, delegate the UI work to me, I'll enjoy it :P
20:04:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed
20:04:10 <zzo38> Text mode just uses put directly in memory, the ASCII in one byte and the next one is the colors
20:04:25 <zzo38> Usually it is CP437 ASCII
20:04:27 <Phantom_Hoover> For some reason, finding decent docs for low-level display code is difficult.
20:04:36 <alise> zzo38: You can change the font, though.
20:04:37 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:04:42 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's all in OSdev material.
20:04:57 <Phantom_Hoover> I have tried looking through OSDev, but in vain.
20:05:04 <alise> But really, text mode is not worth bothering with after you get stuff running, apart from debug; actually doing stuff with text mode is a bitch with all the wrapping and scrolling and everything.
20:05:06 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I know how the memory is laid out for text mode and for CGA modes
20:05:15 -!- Vegabondmx has joined.
20:05:18 <alise> Besides, you can do more fun, object-y Lisp UIs with graphical stuff. :P
20:05:29 <alise> Note: I do not like WIMP GUIs.
20:05:30 <Phantom_Hoover> This is probably because MediaWiki's search function sucks.
20:05:43 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what do you like, then?
20:05:48 <alise> But an automatically tiling (but mouse controlled layout; like Plan 9's acme, if you've used it) object display?
20:05:51 <alise> Hell yeah!
20:05:53 <zzo38> You can also use the BIOS to write text to the screen
20:06:02 <alise> Object display: Literally, "windows" (frames) are objects with a view.
20:06:12 <alise> You can use an Emacs-style buffer switcher "on steroids", too.
20:06:21 <alise> ...also some floating windows, for displaying some objects.
20:06:33 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
20:06:57 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Of course, my UI ideas are not very fleshed out because I'm a hopeless visionary.
20:07:13 <alise> But since this project has ... slightly lower ambitions ... than aliseOS, I should be able to cook up something awesome.
20:07:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What is aliseOS, then?
20:07:48 <Gregor> LESBIMANS
20:07:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It's... uh...
20:08:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You know Feather?
20:08:10 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
20:08:13 <alise> You know the stage where ais523 is with Feather, the bit he can explain?
20:08:17 <alise> Well, I haven't even got there yet.
20:08:19 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Of.
20:08:20 <alise> *Oh.
20:08:34 <Phantom_Hoover> I know vaguely of it, but I don't know where he got stuck.
20:09:15 <zzo38> I also have some ideas and when I get a new computer and write Linux distribution I will write a window manager with my own ideas
20:09:18 <alise> Basically, aliseOS will make you toast, take over the internet so you have some more computing power, make your mind explode every time you use it, and sexually gratify your dog*.
20:09:29 <alise> *Advanced edition only.
20:09:47 <AnMaster> <alise> AnMaster: all TC machines with sufficient output capabilities have quines (fixed-point theorem for turing machines)
20:09:48 <AnMaster> hm
20:10:01 <alise> aliseOS is limit of OS as awesome goes to infinity
20:10:46 <zzo38> But I don't have a dog
20:10:57 <alise> zzo38: It will buy you a dog first.
20:11:28 <zzo38> But I don't need a dog
20:11:35 <AnMaster> alise, what about this one: The source code consists of the letter "b" followed by a bf program. The "b" is mandatory. When executed the implementation begins by outputting the letter c as the first char.
20:11:36 <alise> Yes, but the dog will be cuddly, you see.
20:11:48 <alise> AnMaster: again, this does not have the necessary output capabilities
20:11:59 <alise> which have been quantified i think but i don't think we've done more than discuss them
20:12:06 <alise> i'd like to quantify them at some point but haven't yet
20:12:11 <alise> david madore has written about this AnMaster
20:12:12 <AnMaster> alise, can you specify what exactly "sufficient output capabilities" is
20:12:21 <alise> see what i just said.
20:12:23 <AnMaster> hm
20:12:27 <zzo38> But I don't want a dog
20:12:32 <zzo38> What I want is the source-codes
20:12:44 <alise> http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/quine.html
20:12:51 <alise> AnMaster: this has a detailed explanation of the fixed point theorem
20:12:57 <alise> grep /The fixed-point theorem/
20:13:41 <alise> "Yow! I've just lost the SOURCE CODE for all my QUINE PROGRAMS! What will I DO NOW with just the BINARIES?" -- David Madore
20:13:54 <zzo38> alise: Yes I have seen that quotation
20:14:01 <zzo38> I copied it into FORTUNE file, even
20:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how does one access persistent objects after a reboot?
20:15:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Um. The system automatically restores the state of the previous session.
20:15:08 <alise> Because the objects are persistent.
20:15:16 <zzo38> Maybe you have to store all memory state in hard-drive
20:15:17 <alise> Like, the window manager will have the "open objects" persisted.
20:15:24 <zzo38> And then you can restore exactly the state of before
20:15:25 <alise> It will try to show them on screen, which will cause them to be loaded from disk.
20:15:29 <alise> etc., etc., etc. recursively.
20:15:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so shutting down is the same as hibernating on lesser OSes?
20:15:55 <zzo38> Except that you might have to reinitialize some things of other hardware
20:16:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, except... the RAM is written every .5 seconds while running, not all at once.
20:16:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Also, this means that if you trip over your power cord, you never miss more than N intervals (e.g. .5 seconds) of work.
20:16:26 <alise> Which is, you know, good.
20:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, that is possibly the coolest feature ever.
20:17:04 <Phantom_Hoover> We will be bothering with multiple processes, won't we?
20:17:27 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:17:56 <alise> Define processes.
20:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, is it that fuzzy?
20:19:15 -!- CakeProphet has joined.
20:19:39 <alise> Well, there are no processes, really, if everything is just living objects.
20:20:17 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, but what if you want to interleave two things at once?
20:20:20 <alise> You look at objects on the screen, you modify them, pass them to other objects: where is the process? there are long-running background things, like say in "threads"; there are the object's paintings on the screen, which they are told to do by the UI...
20:20:28 <alise> there are their reactions to the buttons you press.
20:20:46 <alise> but "process" is a vague concept, both for merely object display/mutation /and/ long-running computation: and we have no need of it.
20:21:17 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so your text editor can fiddle with the WM's internals?
20:21:27 <zzo38> My idea of the BIOS, is, to be compatible with IBM PC BIOS calls, and if there is no boot devices, or you push DELETE key while booting, or you just configured it to do so, or if the operating system attempts to switch to ROM BASIC, then it shall enter interactive Forth mode and display the "ok" on the screen.
20:21:28 <alise> No: this is why we have sandboxing.
20:21:42 <alise> In a way, note that the WM's internals would be /private/ to it; so there is no real worry there; but we can have proper sandboxing too.
20:22:51 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, OK, so we have threading?
20:23:24 <alise> Perhaps not threading as the pthreads and C folk know it; perhaps something more rigorous, without shared state.
20:23:29 <alise> Who knows? It's almost an active research topic.
20:23:32 <alise> I suggest we look at what Oberon does.
20:23:54 <alise> It has a similar objects-not-processes model, and it's well-designed; it will help.
20:23:57 <Phantom_Hoover> The OS or the language?
20:24:01 <alise> The OS.
20:24:05 <alise> Which /is/ the language, in a way.
20:24:34 <zzo38> Can you please tell me what is wrong with this program? http://sprunge.us/BgPV http://sprunge.us/UjTE
20:24:48 <alise> zzo38: What error does it result in?
20:25:09 <alise> \parindent=0.1pt? What, why the .1pt?
20:25:30 <alise> I do suggest that you use LaTeX.
20:25:55 <zzo38> Many errors, including "Missing } inserted", also there is a copy of one of the pages near the end of the document copied at the beginning of the printout, and the tables have no lines and won't wrap like HTML tables do.
20:26:14 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: "An efficient multitasking model is supported in a single-process by using short-running commands and cooperative background task handlers."
20:26:15 <zzo38> How do I make it wrap and stuff like HTML tables do?
20:26:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: This would need to be adjusted for SMP.
20:26:33 <alise> zzo38: missing } inserted -- you have a } missing somewhere
20:26:44 <alise> zzo38: and if you use LaTeX, it includes a table environment that does everything
20:26:50 <alise> writing it yourself will be hard
20:27:23 <Quadrescence> Output written on srcprint.pdf (1449 pages, 20374279 bytes). http://i.imgur.com/2eX2x.jpg
20:27:25 <zzo38> Does LaTeX do like HTML tables that can be wrapped?
20:27:32 <Quadrescence> zzo38: it can
20:27:53 <alise> What filesystem do floppies use again? Fat-12?
20:28:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you could use whatever.
20:28:10 <alise> <Quadrescence> Output written on srcprint.pdf (1449 pages, 20374279 bytes). http://i.imgur.com/2eX2x.jpg
20:28:10 <alise> wat
20:28:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Well, true.
20:28:47 <alise> Seems Oberon is not in any existing filesystem.
20:28:51 <alise> Quadrescence: Can you... afford that?
20:29:02 <Quadrescence> alise: um
20:29:08 <alise> Well, I mean.
20:29:10 <alise> Not afford it.
20:29:12 <alise> But the waste of paper.
20:29:16 <Quadrescence> what
20:29:28 <alise> 1449 pages is rather a lot for a pointless print-out.
20:29:28 <Quadrescence> Are you asking if I have that much paper?
20:29:36 <Quadrescence> It's not pointless at all
20:29:41 <alise> no, just asking whether you really don't have anything better to do with it :p
20:30:00 <Quadrescence> i don't get what you're asking
20:30:04 <Quadrescence> i'm printing it so I can read it
20:30:10 <Quadrescence> annotate, mark up
20:30:12 <alise> the code looks far too small on that paper.
20:30:21 <Quadrescence> the code is small
20:30:41 <Quadrescence> but I don't want to print Output written on srcprint.pdf (3628 pages, 32294410 bytes).
20:30:42 <zzo38> Also the page numbers in the table of contents are wrong, and there is a copy of page 28 before the first page of the table of contents, although Yap says it is page 26
20:31:01 <zzo38> The page it is a copy of is labeled 26 in the table of contents, though
20:31:26 <Quadrescence> did you pass it through latex twice
20:31:40 <Quadrescence> do you have roman numeral pages at the start
20:31:49 <zzo38> No I passed it through Plain TeX once
20:31:53 <Quadrescence> o
20:32:01 <zzo38> Why do I need any twice passes?
20:32:22 <zzo38> I put everything in a macro and make it call the macro multiple times
20:32:30 <zzo38> So that is like multiple passes, a bit?
20:32:45 <Quadrescence> In latex usually you pass it through a few times to resolve references and counts and stuff
20:33:54 <zzo38> Like, see the http://sprunge.us/BgPV the part \def\PrintDocument that is the macro I am making it multiple times to resolve references and counts and stuff.
20:34:57 <zzo38> Also can you tell me if you found a mistake in the other file http://sprunge.us/UjTE
20:36:12 <zzo38> See if you can find the part I missed??
20:40:15 <zzo38> See the file http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/icosahedral/printout/main.dvi is the printout, you can see what is wrong with page-numbers and you can see some of the text is off of the page, and the other problems
20:41:58 <zzo38> Can you please tell me how to correct these problems?
20:44:29 <alise> zzo38: Why is it in landscape?
20:44:34 <alise> Why are the margins awful? Aieee, please use LaTeX.
20:44:46 <zzo38> It isn't in landscape?
20:44:50 <alise> Is for me.
20:45:23 <zzo38> Maybe your computer converted it to landscape because there is text off of the page
20:45:25 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.madore.org/~david/computers/tunes.html
20:45:32 <zzo38> And how do I use LaTeX?
20:45:41 <alise> zzo38: Pretty easily.
20:45:41 <Phantom_Hoover> This seems similar to what alise had in mind, to a degree.
20:45:51 <alise> You can get rid of almost all your definitions; LaTeX includes those features.
20:45:55 <zzo38> The table of contents is correct except for the page numbers, as you should be able to see.
20:46:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: TUNES is the One True Idealist OS; 1995 to present, not a single bit of development.
20:46:07 <alise> It's as old as I am.
20:46:16 <alise> The founder, Fare, is a fan of Lisp machines.
20:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
20:46:23 <Quadrescence> alise: are you 15
20:46:25 <zzo38> Where is the document for how to use those features in LaTeX?
20:46:32 <alise> Quadrescence: Not even that. Well, in a few weeks, I suppose.
20:46:40 <Quadrescence> alise: are you seriously 15
20:46:45 <alise> zzo38: You could read the LaTeX manual; that probably comes with your distribution; or you could use a tutorial, like Wikibooks'.
20:46:49 <alise> Quadrescence: 14.
20:46:54 <alise> zzo38: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX
20:47:00 <Quadrescence> alise: show me a photo
20:47:02 <alise> You could just start at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Document_Structure.
20:47:04 <alise> Quadrescence: No.
20:47:14 <Quadrescence> alise: k
20:47:58 <zzo38> OK I can see the Wikibooks file now
20:48:10 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
20:49:36 <zzo38> I still want to learn how LaTeX works though, so that I can know how to write those kind of macros
20:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, this is going to be very different to a conventional OS, isn't it?
20:50:28 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Extraordinarily.
20:50:47 <alise> No concept of binaries, filesystems, conventional UIs... other languages...
20:50:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Good thing I don't know much about OS design...
20:50:59 <alise> Unix-style OS design is extraordinarily boring, of course.
20:51:00 <zzo38> So, the things like "\subsection*" can be used to implement the "==Pragma TeX OmitFromContents" that I have?
20:51:13 <alise> zzo38: They're basically very complicated macros. Well, not that complicated.
20:51:18 <alise> zzo38: Yeah.
20:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I still don't understand how we do two things at once.
20:53:13 <zzo38> Icosahedral RPG is not like a scientific article/report, though.
20:53:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Complicatedly.
20:53:42 <alise> zzo38: That is alright.
20:53:49 <alise> zzo38: the article or book class will suit your needs. Maybe memoir.
20:53:59 <zzo38> And what if I want to omit the \author part?
20:54:00 <alise> Memoir is like all the classes in one.
20:54:23 <zzo38> Probably book class should I use?
20:54:34 <alise> \author{}
20:54:36 <alise> \date{}
20:54:44 <alise> I've never used the book class. I'd use either article or memoir.
20:54:47 <zzo38> It is supposed to be like a book, that you can print out and bind it as a book and published
20:54:54 <alise> memoir is a very good class for books.
20:55:08 <zzo38> Except it says \chapter is only for books and reports
20:55:08 <alise> You can use the same commands as article class.
20:55:17 <alise> \chapter works fine in memoir.
20:55:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, do you actually know how it will be done?
20:55:29 <zzo38> OK. The description on Wikibooks does not mention it.
20:55:50 <zzo38> Is the memoir class good for publishing a book?
20:55:59 <alise> zzo38: http://www.tex.ac.uk/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/memoir/memman.pdf Very comprehensive documentation of memoir.
20:56:02 <alise> Very good.
20:56:08 <alise> It does book typography and the like by default.
20:56:20 <alise> You can ignore most of the typographical, formatting stuff in the memoir manual; it's very excessive.
21:00:36 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how are we doing the implementation?
21:00:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Complicatedly!
21:01:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Lambda, etc.?
21:02:07 <zzo38> Are commands such as \def and \newcount and so on still usable in LaTeX?
21:03:37 <zzo38> The Icosahedral RPG rules is meant to be printed in black&white, except for the cover art which can be colored.
21:04:11 <alise> zzo38: Yes, though for commands you should use \defcommand.
21:04:24 <alise> Not sure why.
21:04:41 <alise> Er.
21:04:42 <alise> \newcommand
21:04:52 <alise> http://www.emerson.emory.edu/services/latex/latex_19.html
21:05:22 -!- relet has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:06:30 <zzo38> Does LaTeX still use Plain TeX or is stuff defined in plain.tex unavailable?
21:06:47 -!- relet has joined.
21:06:56 <alise> It doesn't use Plain TeX, but it has analogues for all the commands.
21:07:05 <alise> I guess Plain TeX /might/ work with LaTeX.
21:07:17 -!- tombom has joined.
21:09:31 <zzo38> I want to use Plain TeX for some things, because there are some things in LaTeX which I don't like
21:10:09 <alise> Like what?
21:16:38 <zzo38> Also there is the problem of still not automatically wrapping text in columns
21:16:59 <zzo38> It doesn't do that with the icoruma.tex macros that I have, either, it also has the same problem
21:17:27 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
21:18:02 <zzo38> How can you do it like HTML where it will automatically determine the proper widths for wrapping the text in the tables?
21:20:53 <alise> zzo38: latex can do columns
21:20:56 <alise> twocolumn environment or something
21:20:59 <alise> or was it multicol
21:21:04 <alise> it does do that with the tables
21:22:32 <AnMaster> why did I just think "D&D - flatland edition"
21:22:49 <zzo38> AnMaster: What?
21:22:51 <AnMaster> that would be some interesting dice though
21:23:14 <AnMaster> zzo38, do you know what flatland refers to?
21:23:36 <zzo38> AnMaster: Yes
21:24:24 <AnMaster> zzo38, so this would be D&D for a 2D world, with some 2D replacement for dices
21:25:55 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, polygons>
21:26:03 <Phantom_Hoover> If anything, it's better.
21:31:05 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:31:25 <zzo38> I can see however, that LaTeX does have a lot of stuff useful for Icoruma, such as \begin{enumerate} for <+> and \begin{itemize} for <->
21:31:32 -!- Flonk has joined.
21:33:05 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, how would you toss one, you wouldn't have gravity?
21:33:25 <AnMaster> well, if you did, then people would have to climb over each other
21:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, throw them at a sticky surface?
21:34:11 <zzo38> Also the \footnote command works differently?
21:34:33 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, you seem to forget the 2D nature of this
21:34:51 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, wouldn't you only have one, the one you are in?
21:35:22 -!- cheater99 has joined.
21:35:22 <AnMaster> sticky line perhaps
21:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, surface <=> line.
21:36:32 <AnMaster> hm okay
21:36:53 <AnMaster> I guess that could work
21:40:35 <alise> zzo38: \footnote{text}
21:40:42 <alise> or \footnotemark[number]
21:40:45 <alise> then \footnotetext[num]{...}
21:41:28 <Warrigal> Our world seems pretty easy to two-dimensionalise. Just squeeze it between two plates that are really close together.
21:44:24 <zzo38> alise: The LaTeX \footnote{text} works fine for Icoruma, but it is different than Plain TeX?
21:44:36 <zzo38> And what is the command to activate LaTeX?
21:44:37 <alise> zzo38: Howso?
21:44:46 <alise> With LaTeX, run the "latex" binary instead of "tex".
21:44:53 <zzo38> OK
21:45:36 <zzo38> When entering "latex" it says it is pdfTeX
21:46:03 <zzo38> But what if I want DVI?
21:46:50 <alise> pdfTeX outputs dvi too by default
21:46:55 <alise> only if you enter pdflatex will it output pdf
21:47:03 <zzo38> OK
21:47:05 <alise> pdfTeX has non-PDF features too like typography and stuff that LaTeX utilises
21:47:52 <zzo38> O, that is why it is pdfTeX
21:52:39 <alise> Since you are doing a book, I suggest using document class memoir.
21:52:56 <alise> You can also use 10, 11 or 12pt text size (and it will scale the rest accordingly) with \documentclass[NNpt]{memoir}
21:52:57 * Sgeo wonders what alise's opinion of things like Wt and Blitzen is
21:53:18 <alise> Sgeo: wt is strange. i don't like it much -- link to blitzen?
21:53:38 <Sgeo> http://blitzen.sourceforge.net/new/index.php
21:53:46 <Sgeo> Something similar, except for C/GObject
21:54:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you any good at UIs?
21:54:29 <Sgeo> No, but I plan to become decent quickly
21:54:38 <Sgeo> I'm planning on making a UI toolkit
21:56:02 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So, the OS! Which is now my favourite someone-else's-project.
21:56:06 <alise> Also problem, SEP both ways.
21:56:31 <alise> Make sure you manage my crazy ideas which I am likely to suggest >_>
21:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, not necessarily graphical.
21:56:39 <alise> Hey that's my job :D
21:56:44 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm crazy too, though!
21:56:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you sane?
21:56:59 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sgeo invented PSOX
21:57:07 <alise> he's insane in the "Oh, jesus." way :|
21:58:36 <Sgeo> I meant, I'm making a GUI toolkit
21:58:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit.
21:58:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk, you haven't been exposed to us for long.
21:59:26 <Sgeo> You're saying e still has time to save emself?
21:59:40 <alise> yes
21:59:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, no. We want to experiment on him.
21:59:46 <alise> or that
21:59:57 <alise> Flonk: Hypergeometric spatial disk organisation for deduplicative Lisp morphism storage theory.
22:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> We'll throw insanity at 'im and see what sticks.
22:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, how is it hypergeometric?
22:00:27 <alise> Because.
22:00:43 <Flonk> alise: exatly.
22:00:49 <Flonk> *c
22:01:23 <Sgeo> So, need layout control, widgets (there will be 2), and events (clicking)
22:01:27 <alise> See, he /is/ sufficiently crazy.
22:01:28 <Sgeo> Anything else?
22:01:34 <alise> Sgeo: Why are you doing that?
22:01:46 <Sgeo> alise, to make writing a HUD for Active Worlds sane
22:01:52 <Flonk> the only word in this sentence I really understood was 'for'
22:01:57 <alise> How do you plan to handle updating the UI without user interaction?
22:02:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk, you know Lisp?
22:02:32 <Sgeo> clicking is a user interaction, right? But it needs to be updated separately from that, so
22:03:07 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover: I've never done anything with it
22:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk, what alise is talking about is abstracting away the disk completely.
22:03:38 <alise> no, i was talking about babble
22:03:43 <alise> only half of those words were meaningful
22:03:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, indeed.
22:03:59 <Phantom_Hoover> The other half were about abstracting away the disc.
22:04:06 * Sgeo bibbles
22:04:10 <Sgeo> ISIDTID
22:07:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, dammit, be sane!
22:07:45 <alise> no, insane!
22:07:52 <Flonk> semi-sane!
22:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, we have no shortage of the insane!
22:08:23 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, what do you think of the ideas so far presented?
22:08:24 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: hence my comment saying that they're partly mocking it, i'd kick them in the least... not working with the standard ( which it does regularly) they all roll on their backs and wave their paws in the air and point out that i have
22:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> He doesn't like it, it would seem.
22:12:09 <Quadrescence> alise: your age explains a lot
22:12:40 <alise> Quadrescence: interestingly nobody ever prescribes the things i say to age until they know what my age is.
22:12:47 <oklopol> "<AnMaster> well, if you did, then people would have to climb over each other" <<< or you could have a few layers
22:12:48 <alise> everyone else in here has known for years; get over it
22:13:13 <Quadrescence> alise: how many years
22:13:22 <alise> hmm, late 2008 i think.
22:13:49 <oklopol> alise isn't exactly all that young anymore
22:14:27 <Quadrescence> alise: stupidity is confused with nativity
22:15:18 <alise> gee, thank you
22:15:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, alise, shut up.
22:15:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, are you sane?
22:16:12 <Quadrescence> Phantom_Hoover: By the DSM IV, I am
22:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> DAMN
22:16:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there no-one sane in this channel?
22:17:01 <Quadrescence> did you not understand what I said
22:17:17 <oklopol> maybe he meant if you've checked from DSM you can't be sane
22:17:22 <Quadrescence> "are you sane?" "yes" "is there no one sane?"
22:17:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm terrible at that.
22:17:40 <Quadrescence> oklopol: he didn't mean that
22:17:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the insanity, see.
22:17:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, do you know Lisp?
22:17:55 <Quadrescence> maybe
22:18:14 <oklopol> Quadrescence: ben. of doubt or something
22:18:26 <Quadrescence> oklopol: No, just logically
22:18:37 <Quadrescence> oklopol: he was implying I was not sane
22:18:43 <Quadrescence> so there was no "if" about it
22:18:55 <Flonk> Phantom_Hoover: why do you ask everyone it they know Lisp? :D
22:19:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Because we need someone sane to vet our Lisp OS ideas.
22:19:27 <Phantom_Hoover> If you don't know Lisp, it's rather difficult.
22:20:08 <Sgeo> I .. read a bit about Scheme some time ago
22:20:14 <Sgeo> Does that count for anything?
22:20:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, well. You aren't sane, though
22:20:36 <Flonk> well all I know is (f o o), so i guess I'm useless there
22:20:42 <ais523> I know bits of several different incompatible bits of lisp
22:20:46 <ais523> *incompatible dialects
22:20:49 -!- Darkfull has joined.
22:20:53 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, are you sane?
22:21:00 <Quadrescence> Phantom_Hoover: i wrote 3 lispy compilers
22:21:11 <Quadrescence> a few interpreters
22:21:11 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: allegedly
22:21:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Quadrescence, excellent.
22:21:14 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ais523 teaches Java [or teacher assistant?]
22:21:14 <ais523> but it's hard to tell
22:21:25 <oklopol> Quadrescence: to me it looks like it could've been a bad attempt at jokingness, in case there's something insane about checking if you're sane (although this is probably something you are not that interested in discussing)
22:21:59 <Darkfull> Help http://www.4security.com.br/2010/07/26/artigo-apache-com-mysql-e-monitoramento-com-bijk-no-debian-lenny/
22:22:45 <Sgeo> Anyone feel like opening elinks or similar?
22:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, I have w3m.
22:23:27 -!- Darkfull has left (?).
22:23:39 <oklopol> "<Quadrescence> alise: stupidity is confused with nativity" <<< i'm not sure i get this, can you elaborate
22:23:43 <oklopol> nativity to channel?
22:23:48 <oklopol> wait err
22:24:55 <oklopol> hey Darkfull brought us a link
22:24:57 <oklopol> cool
22:34:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I still think we should cannibalise an existing CL implementation, BTW.
22:37:27 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no
22:37:36 <alise> one, CL lacks a lot of things we'd like, like low-level hardware access;
22:37:49 <alise> two, CL implementations will be VERY tied to existing OSes and very hard to make work for our purposes -- trust me there --
22:37:52 <alise> third, bah, CL :P
22:38:25 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so we write all of the frills that Lisp needs from scratch?
22:39:41 <alise> Sure. We're writing all the frills an OS needs from scratch
22:39:42 <alise> *scratch.
22:39:49 <alise> Besides, C would interfere with stuff, with memory and the like.
22:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> We're writing the frills in assembly?
22:42:47 <alise> Well, no.
22:43:06 <zzo38> Unfortunately 888ASM is x86 only, with limited support for 32-bit and no support for floating point. But other than that I like the syntax best and it supports macros and things like that, too.
22:43:11 <alise> We'll probably need to write the JIT compiler in assembly, for speed and managing hardware, but we can code the frills in Lisp itself.
22:43:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I mean, these things really blur the OS-language distinction.
22:44:01 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, so we also need a Lisp assembly interface?
22:44:03 <alise> Like Smalltalk.
22:44:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Or we can just build it up with macros and the like.
22:44:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Wait, yeah.
22:44:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Memory access would need to be included at a low level, wouldn't it?
22:44:55 <zzo38> alise: Is it x86 assembly? Is it protected mode? Now if you do it to other computer you need C instead of assembly, a bit
22:45:05 <alise> zzo38: long mode
22:45:06 <alise> x86-64
22:45:08 <alise> for the address space
22:45:40 <zzo38> O, so it won't work if you don't have a 64-bit computer
22:45:41 <Flonk> good night people.
22:45:48 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, no.
22:45:51 -!- Flonk has left (?).
22:46:08 <Phantom_Hoover> Engineering for 2 architectures would drive us mad.
22:46:13 <alise> zzo38: You could use QEMU.
22:46:16 <alise> It can emulate 64-bit.
22:46:26 <alise> But yeah, the 64-bit address space is important for our plans.
22:46:30 <zzo38> I have Bochs, I think it can emulate a 64-bit computer as well??
22:46:40 <alise> Bochs is slower though.
22:46:41 <zzo38> But that is OK, you can make it 64-bit program only, if you want to
22:46:45 <alise> You'd get much less than 2 GiB of space in total on your computer.
22:47:14 -!- Flonk has joined.
22:47:17 <Flonk> or not.
22:47:53 <alise> :D
22:47:56 <alise> We are magnetic.
22:48:37 <Flonk> :D no its just that my clock tells the wrong time
22:53:04 <Flonk> so you guys know everything, right? :D
22:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk, a portion of it.
22:53:27 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone will be an expert on anything.
22:53:37 <Flonk> I'm just looking at lambda calculus (and havent come very far yet).
22:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk, we know about that.
22:54:09 <Flonk> would (λx.xx)2 be 2+2, or 2*2, or something else?
22:54:21 <alise> well
22:54:21 <alise> define 2
22:54:31 <alise> lambda calculus doesn't have integers by default, so do you mean the church numeral?
22:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Flonk, 2**2.
22:54:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Using the standard Church encodings for nats.
22:54:53 <alise> if 2 = \fx.f(fx)
22:54:58 <alise> then yes, it's 2 squared
22:54:58 <alise> = 4
22:55:04 <alise> You can verify this yourself
22:55:28 <Flonk> alright, thanks :)
22:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I never quite got the \b e.e b thing.
22:55:57 -!- nooga has joined.
22:56:02 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga!
22:56:53 <alise> what don't you get about \b e. e b?
22:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't see why it's b**e.
22:57:37 <zzo38> How to I configure my Wikibooks account to display the newest draft by default instead of the checked versions?
22:59:33 <zzo38> I found it
22:59:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: try and expand it manually
22:59:41 <alise> (\f x. f (f x)) (\f x. f (f x))
22:59:44 <zzo38> Actually I didn't find it
22:59:49 <alise> (\x. (\f x. f (f x)) ((\f x. f (f x)) x))
23:00:03 <alise> etc
23:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I tried that. I got lost in alpha reductions.
23:00:35 <oklopol> rename
23:00:37 <alise> alpha renaming, you mean?
23:00:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Yesyesyes
23:01:56 <alise> "A new way of analyzing grids of numbers known as matrices" --physorg.com
23:02:54 <oklopol> "in our new formalism matrices are written upside down, which makes some equations look much more natural"
23:03:42 <Phantom_Hoover> Please tell me this is a joke.
23:04:02 <oklopol> mine was, that's how professional what alise said sounded to me
23:04:16 <alise> i didn't say it
23:04:24 <alise> i just thought it was hilarious that a physics news website, supposedly
23:04:27 <alise> had to explain what a matrix was
23:05:04 <oklopol> so what's the new way
23:06:02 <alise> dunn
23:06:07 <alise> *dunno
23:06:09 <alise> http://www.physorg.com/news199631037.html
23:08:11 <alise> "Yehuda Eliezar" -- someone trying to say Eliezer Yudkowsky
23:08:17 <Sgeo> I'm uninstalling VS2010
23:10:09 <Sgeo> Actually, I'm not
23:10:37 <oklopol> so it answers the long asked question of when does a banded matrix have a banded inverse
23:10:39 <oklopol> *has
23:10:49 <oklopol> argh
23:11:03 <oklopol> i wrote the end of the sentence first so now it's all wrong and blah
23:11:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: YES CARRIER).
23:13:04 <alise> NOT OK COMPUTER
23:14:01 <oklopol> a b f x = (b ... (b f)) x, b occurs a times, now the outermost b will apply (b ... (b f)) to x b times, where the depth of (b ... (b f)) is now a-1, by induction each of these applies f to its argument b^(a-1) times, so all in all f gets applied b^a times to x
23:14:22 <Gregor> YHWH Eliezer
23:15:04 <oklopol> maybe that makes some sense, i've always just sort of trusted my feeling that composition looks exponentiationy.
23:16:17 <oklopol> note that (b f) applies f to its argument b times, so the induction base works
23:16:30 <oklopol> one b so f applied b^1 times
23:17:14 <ais523> composition's more like multiplication
23:17:18 <ais523> it's application that's exopnential-like
23:17:23 <ais523> *exponential-like
23:17:34 <oklopol> err right
23:18:11 <oklopol> i meant application as you can probably see
23:20:49 -!- calamari has joined.
23:21:15 <calamari> :)
23:21:26 <calamari> Gregor: root your phone yet?
23:21:36 <Gregor> calamari: Yup. It has a Debian chroot too 8-D
23:21:44 <calamari> speaking of ..
23:21:46 <Gregor> I got frustrated looking for a half-decent WM for the screen size though.
23:22:08 <calamari> just ported dpkg to android/bionic
23:22:15 <Gregor> ... friggin' awesome.
23:22:18 <Gregor> FRIGGIN' AWESOME
23:22:26 <Gregor> Get aptitude next plzkthx?
23:22:27 <calamari> haven't actually tested it yet lol
23:22:34 <Gregor> Testing is for the weak!
23:22:58 <calamari> but I was thinking the first package should definitely be egobf
23:23:02 <oklopol> so okay what does a . b do... (a . b) f = a (b f), so * x = (bf ... (bf x) nested a times, car-bf applies f to the cdr b times, and it follows by induction that f gets applied exactly b*a times
23:23:17 <oklopol> ais523: why "more like"?
23:23:23 <oklopol> oh
23:23:31 <oklopol> because application wasn't exponentiation but exponentiation-like
23:23:38 <ais523> yes
23:23:57 <oklopol> so addition, that was more work or?
23:24:06 <oklopol> wait
23:24:09 <oklopol> that's just a fork
23:24:32 <oklopol> f x . a f (b f x)
23:24:41 <Gregor> cal153: Why is your name the first tab completion for "cal<tab>"
23:24:52 <Gregor> calamari: EgoBF is of vital importance. As is cplof.
23:25:27 <calamari> Gregor: 1<a in ascii?
23:25:34 <Gregor> Probably :P
23:25:45 <calamari> and in phonebooks too
23:25:50 <calamari> so either way :)
23:25:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, your user page on WP says you're metapedian.
23:26:05 <Phantom_Hoover> You might want to change that.
23:26:06 <cal153> :)
23:26:17 <ais523> meh. leave it be
23:26:34 <ais523> I'll update it if I ever go back to WIkipedia
23:26:48 <Gregor> What is a "metapedian"?
23:26:49 <oklopol> ais523 left?
23:26:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, neonazi wiki.
23:27:01 <ais523> oklopol: well, I haven't gone back there ever
23:27:04 <Gregor> Uhhhhh
23:27:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Metapedia is the name.
23:27:06 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that's not what the word normally means
23:27:11 <ais523> at least within Wikipedia
23:27:16 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I know.
23:27:37 <Gregor> This site makes my nose hurt.
23:27:45 <ais523> and I have no reason to believe everyone who redefines random words on the Internet
23:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Metapedia?
23:27:50 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Yesh :P
23:27:58 <calamari> hmm.. not exactly success yet
23:28:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, I avoid it like the plague.
23:28:19 <calamari> does dpkg absolutely require perl?
23:29:12 <calamari> sometimes linux is dumb:
23:29:16 <calamari> bash: /data
23:29:44 <oklopol> umm
23:29:45 <calamari> bash: /data/local/bin/dpkg: No such file or directory
23:29:52 <calamari> yeah my son pushed enter for me lol
23:29:53 <oklopol> can you somehow browse the content of metapedia
23:30:15 <calamari> so I'm assuming dpkg is looking for something but not telling
23:30:19 <calamari> maybe I need to port strace
23:30:27 <Flonk> well, good night again :D
23:30:29 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]).
23:30:31 <calamari> ooh no have it already
23:31:09 <oklopol> oh main_page, no link from metapedia.org except the one in latest news
23:31:18 <oklopol> that's fucking retarded
23:31:21 <calamari> hmm I guess it doesn't think it's executable
23:31:22 <calamari> interesting
23:31:32 * Gregor reappears
23:31:38 <Gregor> calamari: That's probably the dynamic loader.
23:31:45 <calamari> yeah
23:32:04 <Gregor> objdump it to see what dynamic loader it wants, then objdump another binary to see what dynamic loader it wants.
23:32:13 <calamari> k
23:33:59 <calamari> objdump -r?
23:34:31 <calamari> file format elf32-littlearm for both...
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23:36:09 <Gregor> calamari: Hrm, objdump isn't telling me what I thought objdump would tell me :P
23:36:22 <calamari> the start address is different
23:36:27 <calamari> dunno if that matters tho
23:36:47 <Gregor> readelf -l /bin/bash | grep interpreter
23:36:53 <Gregor> That's what you actually want
23:37:41 <calamari> aha!
23:37:52 <calamari> thanks
23:38:03 <Gregor> Uhhh, are they different then? :P
23:38:06 <calamari> yeah
23:38:12 <Gregor> Yup, I've seen that problem a lot.
23:38:14 <calamari> now I wonder how I set that
23:38:20 <Gregor> -dynamic-linker flag to ld
23:38:25 <calamari> thanks
23:38:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, why so many sections?
23:38:48 <Gregor> Ideally that shouldn't be necessary, if it is that suggests your GCC configuration is wrong ...
23:38:56 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: ... huh?
23:39:22 <Phantom_Hoover> In readelf -l /bin/bash
23:39:38 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: I just poked around 'til I found the command that gave me what I wanted :P
23:39:58 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean on the part of the executable.
23:39:58 <calamari> Gregor: android ndk doesn't really want you to create native binaries.. maybe that's why?
23:40:13 <Gregor> calamari: Ahhhh, that'd do it, yeah.
23:40:37 <Gregor> calamari: So just provide the requisite -dynamic-linker flag manually through GCC like so: -Wl,-dynamic-linker,/whatever/foo.so
23:40:51 <Gregor> Why have I munged with ELFs so much >_<
23:40:58 <calamari> I assume you meant = ?
23:41:10 <Gregor> No, although that'd work too.
23:41:32 <Gregor> And since that is how it's documented, probably wise to use it that way X-D
23:41:46 <calamari> weird but okay thanks :)
23:42:47 * Gregor : solver of problems.
23:48:22 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, are you sane?
23:50:57 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Not since I watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Xa4bHcJu8
23:53:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, damn.
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23:54:59 <calamari> well it ran it but gave me segfaults.. trying my build on a hello world
23:55:18 <Gregor> Schweet
23:56:02 <calamari> oh sorry, that came across wrong
23:56:14 <calamari> I am trying to compile a hello world to see if it segfaults too
23:56:38 <calamari> I have one built with the gloogle tools but it isn't so good for configure scripts
23:58:46 <nooga> hey
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