←2010-08-01 2010-08-02 2010-08-03→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:12:22 <AnMaster> alise, so, did the kernel finish installing yet?
00:14:08 <AnMaster> well then... night
00:16:21 <alise> AnMaster: haven't started yet
00:37:59 <AnMaster> alise, couldn't sleep, due to this idea:
00:38:05 <AnMaster> md5 quine
00:38:19 <AnMaster> possible?
00:38:38 <AnMaster> alise, ^
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00:48:39 <AnMaster> night →
00:55:05 <alise> AnMaster: hmm
00:55:24 <alise> AnMaster: crc32 quines exist i think
00:55:26 <alise> or something
00:55:28 <alise> so possible
01:01:15 <alise> Genteelmen.
01:04:28 <alise> Project for the insane: Translate Hamlet to Toki Pona.
01:07:33 <alise> It doesn't even have a word for "green"; you have to use "yelo laso" (yellow blue) or something.
01:08:07 <alise> Toki Ponans express larger numbers additively by using phrases such as tu wan for three, tu tu for four, and so on.[27] This feature was added to make it impractical to communicate large numbers.[6]
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01:14:22 <alise> tu tu mute tu wan
01:14:28 <alise> "four many three" = 4*3
01:14:33 <alise> I have thwarted you, Kisa!
01:14:46 <oerjan> now to ackermann
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01:27:25 <alise> Hi CakeProphet
01:27:35 <alise> Prophesised any cakes recently?
01:29:44 * Sgeo thought Sapir-Worf was discredited?
01:32:52 <alise> Context?
01:32:54 <alise> *Sapir-Whorf
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01:34:01 <alise> Sgeo:
01:34:18 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toki_Pona
01:34:33 <alise> yes, it is; but otoh, toki pona utilises something a bit weaker than sapir-whorf
01:34:41 <alise> i.e. "making it linguistically a bitch to say anything complex or bad"
01:34:48 <alise> which is obviously possible
01:36:04 <alise> DAMMIT
01:36:09 * alise presses alt+f4 on qemu by mistake
01:39:48 <oklopol> <AnMaster> md5 quine <<< if it's any good a hash, it's highly likely that there is a quine, you need 23 ppl for birthday paradox, in the md5 paradox you have 2^128 people and 2^128 days
01:40:08 <oklopol> of course if you meant whether it's possible to *find* one
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01:44:43 <Sgeo> http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/MD5
01:52:57 <oklopol> quoting uncyclopedia isn't much of an argument, how could you trust it when anyone can just put whatever they want in there
01:54:54 * Sgeo blehs at his dad wanting to buy him a Kindle
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01:57:58 <alise> Sgeo: Which you obviously must obey.
01:58:20 <Sgeo> Honestly, one of the main things I want is the ability to use it like blank pen and paper
01:58:37 <Sgeo> I saw a review suggesting that the handwriting stuff is better for short notes than for that sort of thing
01:58:49 <Sgeo> But I guess I'll have to try it in a store [the Sony eReader Touch]
01:59:19 <Sgeo> It would mean I'd be far more mathy, imo
02:01:31 <alise> irex
02:02:01 <Sgeo> Last time we had this discussion, I remember commenting that that's expensive, iirc?
02:02:32 <alise> Only outside of US.
02:02:55 <Gregor> It's not exactly cheap in the US either :P
02:03:07 <Sgeo> "Oops! Google Chrome could not find shop.ereaderoutfitters.com
02:03:07 <Sgeo> "
02:03:19 <Sgeo> n/m
02:04:39 <Sgeo> Does IREX have a handwriting thingy, so I can do math stuff?
02:04:48 <Sgeo> And take notes for class?
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02:06:15 <Sgeo> "Sorry, the page you requested was not found."
02:06:23 <Sgeo> ^^trying to go to the BestBuy link
02:09:14 <alise> IREX does handwriting I think
02:09:16 <alise> It has a stylus
02:10:39 <Sgeo> I'm having trouble finding it
02:10:50 <Sgeo> Unless you're referring to iLiad
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02:11:23 <Sgeo> $4800
02:11:26 <Sgeo> erm, $480
02:11:29 <Sgeo> Still expensive
02:12:33 <Sgeo> Any reasons not to get a Sony eReader Touch?
02:13:52 <Sgeo> Maybe I'll get a chance to try it in-person
02:13:54 <alise> It's not an irex.
02:14:01 <alise> iLiad is the old irex
02:14:03 <alise> ask Gregor
02:14:20 <alise> http://www.irexreader.com/
02:16:50 <Gregor> The IREX DR800SG is what I have.
02:16:53 <Gregor> It is not $480
02:17:15 <Sgeo> How much is it?
02:17:51 <Gregor> Idonno, I don't know where you can buy it anymore.
02:17:58 <Gregor> It used to be on bestbuy.com, but it seems it's not any more.
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02:22:16 <Sgeo> Again, is there anything wrong with getting a Sony eReader Touch?
02:22:33 <alise> herpes
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02:28:19 <alise> hi augur
02:28:45 <Gregor> Sgeo: 's probably OK.
02:28:45 <Gregor> Idonno
02:29:02 <augur> hello, alise, my dear
02:29:15 <alise> drop the last two words there :|
02:29:18 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make sure the software installs onto my computer successfully
02:29:38 <alise> Sgeo: it's not linux :D
02:30:21 <Sgeo> Is there a Linux version? Maybe I should use that. My Windows install is rather FUBARed right now
02:30:39 <alise> i mean sony reader isn't
02:30:41 <alise> irex is linux
02:30:54 <augur> hello, alise,
02:31:07 <alise> augur: also the comma.
02:31:15 <augur> hello alise,
02:31:16 <alise> if i said last clause you'd just linguistically correct me pedantically
02:31:26 <augur> what?
02:31:40 <Gregor> alise: The Sony Reader doesn't run Linux? That sounds unlikely.
02:31:42 <Gregor> They all do.
02:31:45 <augur> oh, yes, well, there was no clause there, so.
02:31:49 <Gregor> It might be less hackable.
02:31:56 <alise> augur: precisely
02:32:04 <alise> Gregor: Well, yeah, but it's probably not X11.
02:32:06 <augur> so yeah
02:32:07 <alise> Which is a good bad thing.
02:32:09 <augur> hello alise,
02:32:12 <augur> hows life
02:32:12 <Gregor> alise: Yesh :P
02:32:19 <alise> Erm.
02:32:20 <alise> A bad good thing.
02:32:22 <alise> I think.
02:32:29 <augur> ahh
02:32:31 <augur> badgood
02:32:38 <augur> the bane of goodbad's existance
02:33:40 <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
02:33:56 <Sgeo> alise, when will you read Fine Structure?
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02:35:24 <augur> Sgeo: what's Fine Structure?
02:35:27 <alise> when the universe all's out of line and -- "Fucking--! What the fuck i-- I'm not even going to ask, where is the prince, is the prince here? What have you done with the prince?" "Sir, I'm sor-" "No. No fucking sorry. I want to know where the prince is." There was silence for minutes. "... follow me." He was lead into a ch-- what is this that I have found to happen? The things are all whats.
02:35:33 <alise> augur: a sci-fi novel by Sam Hughes
02:35:36 <augur> ahh
02:35:39 <alise> Sgeo: ^ there is your answer
02:35:52 <Sgeo> o.O
02:36:02 <Sgeo> So, I can feel free to spoil you?
02:36:46 <Gregor> Damn it augur and alise, stop having names that both begin with 'a' and are the same number of characters long >_<
02:37:07 <alise> Sgeo: No.
02:39:13 <Sgeo> Stuff happens
02:40:19 <augur> yes, stuff does >3
02:40:32 <alise> Sgeo: gasp
02:45:13 * Sgeo needs to fix IE somehow
02:47:01 * Sgeo wonders if installing IE8 then uninstalling IE8 would fix IE6
02:47:26 <Sgeo> But for now, I'll just install IE8
02:48:19 <Sgeo> Bleh, installer said it couldn't uninstall the "current version" of IE8
02:48:27 <Sgeo> So it will install over it a new, unremovable version
02:48:28 <Sgeo> :/
02:48:51 <Gregor> ... how about you just USE IE8 ...
02:49:07 <Gregor> Actually, how about you use a real browser, but one step at a time.
02:49:44 <Sgeo> First, there are many applications that rely on IE for one reason or another.
02:49:57 <Sgeo> Second, Windows Activation happens to be one of them.. and it demands IE6
02:50:07 <Sgeo> So when I eventually do a Repair Install...
02:50:38 <Gregor> Activation demands IE6? That's hilariously broken even for MS :P
02:51:08 <Sgeo> I actually thought about attempting to .. do piratey stuff to my otherwise legit XP install to get around it
02:51:12 <Sgeo> Last time I did a Repair Install
02:51:46 <alise> http://abstrusegoose.com/249
02:53:56 <Sgeo> Well, restarting
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03:06:20 <Sgeo> Hm
03:06:31 <Sgeo> Installing IE8 fixed the problem with there being no default browser
03:06:39 <Sgeo> And it made the default browser Chrome
03:07:07 <Gregor> lawl
03:07:11 <Sgeo> [Well, I think Chrome was the default, but installing IE fixed.. the thingy that handles URLs]
03:07:12 <Gregor> Good choice, IE8!
03:12:27 * Sgeo needs to find his library card
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03:28:28 <Sgeo> comex, congratulations
03:29:06 <oerjan> `addquote <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
03:29:19 <HackEgo> 202|<Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery!
03:29:46 <Sgeo> ALthough, uh.. this means that malicious websites could do evil things, right?
03:30:15 <oerjan> *GASP*
03:30:34 <oerjan> and here i thought malicious websites only did _good_ things
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03:32:02 <alise> Sgeo: why congrats to comex?
03:32:19 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/cw6ym/iphone_401_jailbreak_via_safari/
03:32:32 <Sgeo> http://www.jailbreakme.com/faq.html
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03:37:45 <alise> Sweet. It's back.
03:39:14 <augur> god
03:39:19 <augur> im totally comment spamming this thread
03:39:29 <augur> so much to say!
03:39:32 <augur> x.x
03:39:58 <alise> http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/01/official-iphone-4-jailbreak-hits-from-iphone-dev-team/
03:40:39 <augur> alise: you know anything about theorem proving?
03:40:45 <alise> Of what sort?
03:41:10 <augur> any
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03:46:56 <alise> http://twitter.com/joshwrobel <-- boohoo
03:51:54 <augur> no huh
03:52:57 <alise> Well, goodnight.
03:53:16 <alise> Bye.
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05:05:58 <Gregor> Dang it, uploading 70MB or so of audio files = slow :P
05:08:21 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp10.ogg
05:11:21 <Gregor> AnMaster, pikhq (not here), maybe augur, anybody else who might care, ^^^
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05:30:02 <augur> Gregor: will look after BBT
05:54:13 <augur> omg bbt
05:54:14 <augur> ":D
05:54:37 <augur> Gregor: did your algos generate this?
05:55:00 <Gregor> >_<
05:55:04 <Gregor> The algos in my brain
05:55:07 <Gregor> And hands
05:55:15 <Gregor> And right foot
05:55:30 <augur> o
05:55:34 <augur> well thats not impressive
05:55:44 <augur> any skilled human composer can write good piano music
05:56:16 <Gregor> That sentence ... is its own definition :P
05:56:43 <augur> i dont know what that means, but ok :D
05:58:42 <Gregor> A skilled composer is someone who can write good music. Someone who can write good music is a skilled composer. So the only addition is "piano", which is obvious since the piano is a versatile solo instrument that nearly anyone who can play any instrument can play.
05:59:37 <Gregor> Oh, and "human" I suppose, but I am insufficiently skilled at MAGIC to write a skilled computer composer :P
06:00:19 <augur> <sheldon cooper> it was a compliment, take it for what it is. </sheldon cooper>
06:01:28 <augur> also, it was a carefully crafted sentence and im glad you appreciated it for that.
06:01:30 <augur> <3
06:03:22 <Gregor> :P
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08:38:55 <AnMaster> <Gregor> AnMaster, pikhq (not here), maybe augur, anybody else who might care, ^^^ <-- mmm thanks, will listen in a few hours, just woke up and have to head out
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09:16:21 <fizzie> AnMaster: Heh: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorenragsdale/3192314056/
09:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Awesome.
09:21:12 <fizzie> Somehow it doesn't look flight-save.
09:22:27 <fizzie> There's two other nice ones in a gallery about the effect: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorenragsdale/3904937619/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/meriko/4013673616/
09:38:19 <augur> fizzie: yes.
09:39:39 <augur> i would love to do a bullettime fly around of such a thing
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10:08:27 <AnMaster> I'm *so* happy I got RAID 1. Really
10:08:42 * AnMaster uses mdadm to fail one device
10:08:57 <AnMaster> now to figure out which one it is physically
10:30:41 <AnMaster> mdadm monitoring daemon mail from that: http://sprunge.us/YUZe
10:30:46 <AnMaster> strange style it is written in
10:31:09 <AnMaster> I mean, think about it, an auto generated mail have no reason to use P.S. ... really
10:53:13 <fizzie> It's a reasonably common style, though, to make app-generated emails look as if they were written by a person.
10:53:19 <fizzie> qmail does it a lot, IIRC.
10:53:50 <fizzie> It's bounces look like:
10:54:04 <fizzie> Hi. This is the qmail-send program at [host].
10:54:04 <fizzie> I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
10:54:04 <fizzie> This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
10:55:24 <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, why are you so happy?
10:56:10 <fizzie> One broken disk, no data loss; I presume.
10:57:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Not with RAID 1, surely?
10:57:22 <Phantom_Hoover> RAID 1 just striped, I thought.
10:58:05 <fizzie> That's RAID 0.
10:58:08 <fizzie> RAID 1 is the mirrored one.
11:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, where you just have a few disks with the same data on all of them.
11:06:46 <fizzie> Right. Usually few == 2.
11:08:06 <AnMaster> <fizzie> One broken disk, no data loss; I presume. <-- one broken disk, no need to restore from slow backup
11:08:50 <AnMaster> fizzie, any opinions on if this is drive or mobo? http://sprunge.us/bfPd
11:09:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, I suspect drive since it seems to have vibration issues as well...
11:09:31 <AnMaster> noticed that when using hdparm -y to identify which physical drive it was
11:10:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, I would use few = 3, except my mobo only has two sata connectors
11:10:59 <fizzie> I wouldn't use few == 3, I'm not made of money.
11:11:09 <fizzie> Did you check smartctl's statistics, if applicable?
11:11:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, I checked that, no errors reported. but that drive spun down several more times (it does at each error)
11:11:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, but if you mean vibration stats I don't think it has that
11:12:43 <fizzie> Well, I guess the drive is more likely anyway; if the sata controller has been burninated, you'd probably see errors on all channels. (Of course it's probably *possible* for it to break so that only one port goes, but it's maybe not so likely.)
11:12:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, the disk is quite readable, md data check passes but it does have vibration issues and it does spin down and lock everything up every now and then
11:13:55 <AnMaster> fizzie, it is interesting that there seems to be no place to see that ata1.00 == sda
11:14:40 <AnMaster> I mean, I figured it out from spin down count for smartctl -A and also that when running extended self test, the drive spun down, and when it restarted it had completely forgot about this last self test
11:20:20 <fizzie> ls -l /sys/dev/block | grep sda/ => "8:0 -> ../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda/" -- the physical path there (target0:0:0) is somewhat likely to correspond to connectors. (Though on my system changing BIOS flips for SATA mode -- legacy IDE, AHCI, silly-RAID -- can rearrange in which order connectors {0, 1, 2, 3} and {4, 5} appear.)
11:21:18 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure where the "ata1.00" name comes from, though. I guess it could be something driver-internal.
11:22:27 <fizzie> Bleh. These two files should be identical, but one has 21639 lines in it while the other has only 16254; that's not quite identical to me.
11:22:54 <AnMaster> fizzie, the other disk is ata2.00 iirc
11:23:12 <AnMaster> and my dvd is ata3.00
11:25:11 <fizzie> The other car is a cdr.
11:26:09 <AnMaster> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 1 aug 21.48 8:0 -> ../../devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:0f.0/host0/target0:0:0/0:0:0:0/block/sda
11:26:10 <AnMaster> hm
11:26:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, where in that did you say ata1.00 was
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11:27:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, and driver is sata_via iirc
11:34:06 <fizzie> I just think that the "ataN" numbering would be in the same order than what's in /sys/bus/scsi/devices, though there might be some differences in 0-/1-based indexing and/or if there's multiple SATA controllers around.
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11:38:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is a SATA controller and a PATA controller
11:40:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, btw do you have any idea about this:
11:40:45 <AnMaster> # lspci | grep ISA
11:40:46 <AnMaster> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation ICH9M LPC Interface Controller (rev 03)
11:40:51 <AnMaster> that is on a no-legacy thinkpad
11:41:06 <AnMaster> well, some legacy I guess
11:41:08 <AnMaster> considering that
11:41:41 <fizzie> There's an ISA bridge almost everywhere; often the temperature sensors/smbus/i2c/whatever are hooked to it.
11:42:09 <fizzie> 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 82801JDO (ICH10DO) LPC Interface Controller (rev 02)
11:42:12 <AnMaster> hm sensors does say coretemp-isa-0000
11:42:20 <AnMaster> but I doubt that one is actually ISA
11:42:40 <AnMaster> thinkpad-isa-0000, well I think that is virtualish.
11:43:04 <AnMaster> Gregor, I like your last work so far
11:46:51 <fizzie> I don't know what the "-isa-" part there is trying to say; coretemp uses the rdmsr opcode to read the temperature.
11:51:30 <fizzie> ICH's (a random version) data sheet says: "Low Pin count (LPC) Interface: Allows Connection of Legacy ISA and X-Bus devices such as Super I/O; Supports Two Master/DMA Devices".
11:52:00 <fizzie> I think the actual sensors in at least one of my (otherwise pretty un-legacy) boxes lives in the traditional ISA bus I/O range.
11:53:20 <fizzie> sensors-detect:
11:53:22 <fizzie> Driver `f71882fg':
11:53:22 <fizzie> * ISA bus, address 0x295
11:53:22 <fizzie> Chip `Fintek F71862FG Super IO Sensors' (confidence: 9)
11:54:19 <fizzie> (This was from that Atom box.)
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12:06:23 <AnMaster> hm
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12:37:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, it seems that thinkpad-isa is really provided by ACPI
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12:46:54 <fizzie> Hm, there doesn't seem to be lm-sensors package for the N900, at least in the repo. It does have drivers for the sensors; there's /sys/class/hwmon/hwmon[01] (omap temperature sensor and something in the i2c bus), and I can even read current brightness and such from the files there, but there's no user-space command-line app. (There's some battery-graphing tools that I think monitor sensors too, and a port of http://conky.sourceforge.net/, but that's about it.
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13:10:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Does it count as open-source if you distribute an executable for which there /is/ no source code?
13:12:59 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, what do you mean with no source? lost source? written in machine code directly with a hex editor?
13:13:12 <AnMaster> the former I would say no, the latter probably yes
13:13:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Written directly with a hex editor.
13:13:30 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, depends on the license too
13:13:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Assuming all of those things.
13:15:08 <fizzie> OSI's definition is: "The source code must be the preferred form in which a programmer would modify the program."
13:15:29 <fizzie> So, uh... I guess it depends on which programmer you ask.
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13:27:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, doesn't it also require that it has a free license?
13:27:09 <AnMaster> such as BSD or GPL or whatever
13:39:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Is using non-tail recursion A Bad Thing?
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13:44:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, it requires all kinds of things; that was just the part defining "source code".
13:52:48 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: only for many function calls
13:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> derdon, recursion tends to imply many calls.
13:53:45 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: no, not necessarily
13:54:04 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: you can define this typical recursive definition of a factorial
13:54:12 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: and then compute the factorial of 5
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13:54:41 <derdon> Phantom_Hoover: there are less function calls than with the factorial of 100
13:54:45 <derdon> should be clear
13:54:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, of course.
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14:06:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan!
14:06:45 <oerjan> ssh, it's a secret
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14:37:09 <Flonk> g'day
14:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Good day.
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15:20:23 <cpressey> So, cabal (Haskell) and setuptools (Python) are too similar to be explained by coincidence. Who copied who?
15:22:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Who was first?
15:22:33 <Sgeo> "In an effort to prevent bots from registering and spamming up the forum, you are kindly requested to refrain from registering if you are incapable of feeling love.
15:22:44 <Sgeo> "If this prevents you from registering and you are a human, maybe you should talk to someone about it."
15:22:58 <Phantom_Hoover> How do they test for it?
15:23:38 <cpressey> It's like the Turing test except... no, I cannot say.
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15:37:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Random thought: conspiracy to commit a crime is itself a crime isn't it?
15:39:03 <ais523> in most cases, although it's a different crime
15:39:17 <ais523> in the UK, incidentally, conspiracy to defraud is illegal, but fraud itself isn't
15:39:32 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime?
15:39:53 <ais523> which is a weird glitch on the legal system
15:39:58 <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
15:40:31 <oerjan> norway is currently having a slight problem with this: conspiring to commit terrorism is criminal, but planning to commit terrorism by yourself isn't (unless you actually go ahead and do it)
15:41:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Weird...
15:41:12 <oerjan> they arrested three people who were supposedly terrorists, but they're having trouble proving more than one of them actually knew what was happening :D
15:41:56 <oerjan> which means in principle _all_ of them might go free, even the main guy
15:42:12 <oerjan> (since they never got to actually carry out the plan)
15:58:01 <Gregor> `addquote <Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
15:58:07 <HackEgo> 203|<Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
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16:53:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, Cat's Eye is a consultancy complany?
16:53:27 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Well, it used to be.
16:53:38 <Phantom_Hoover> What is it now?
16:53:41 <cpressey> I don't do a lot of consulting these day.
16:53:43 <cpressey> *days.
16:53:53 <cpressey> It is what it says on the front page now :)
16:55:22 <Phantom_Hoover> A concern?
16:55:49 <cpressey> Hey, if someone requires my unique services and is willing to pay me for it, I'm open to discussion. But while I was working for corporations with "non compete" clauses I couldn't do any consulting work.
16:56:00 <cpressey> Yes, a "concern". :)
16:56:19 <olsner> heh, found cpressey's linked-in page :) "Esoteric Programming Language Designer" is an awesome job title btw
16:56:36 <cpressey> Yes. I take LinkedIn VERY seriously, you see...
16:56:38 * oerjan notes that "konsern" in norwegian means a large corporation
16:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, probably the same root.
16:57:19 <oerjan> obviously
16:57:29 <olsner> doesn't english 'concern' also have that meaning?
16:57:34 <cpressey> I think "concern" is usually how "large corporation" is translated from Japanese to English, too.
16:57:55 <cpressey> It's such a general, ambiguous word in English.
16:58:10 <oerjan> c -> k,s according to pronunciation is a regular rule in norwegian spelling
16:59:11 <oerjan> actually it seems to mean a group of companies
16:59:50 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concern_(business) seems to be a german borrowing
17:00:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, what business can you do with esolangs?
17:00:37 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You tell me! :)
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17:00:57 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, torture device?
17:01:22 <Phantom_Hoover> "So, you won't talk? Then implement quicksort in Lazy K!"
17:01:40 <oerjan> that article has some horrible grammar :D
17:02:07 <olsner> if you start posting esolangs on the esolangs reddit you can at least get some reddit karma
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17:07:34 <Sgeo> There's an esolangs reddit?
17:07:49 <olsner> http://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/
17:08:11 <oerjan> "conglomerate" seems to be a more precise english equivalent. maybe _too_ precise.
17:08:25 * Sgeo was about to ask why eso-std is mentioned, but it's apparently 2 years old
17:08:30 <oerjan> (or narrow)
17:08:49 <olsner> there was an initial torrent of activity around the time it started, a couple of years later I made the first comment
17:09:27 <cpressey> oerjan: In English it can be used informally to refer to a single company or other organization
17:10:18 <cpressey> Or, of course, in the very general sense of "nexus of interest", which is kind of how I was applying it.
17:14:24 * oerjan isn't sure if you can say that in norwegian without being closer to either issue ("sak") or worry ("bekymring")
17:16:24 <olsner> I think the same applies to swedish
17:17:03 <oerjan> hm looking at wiktionary interest ("interesse") might also apply
17:17:14 <olsner> oddly enough we have the verb concern (as 'koncernera') in swedish
17:17:39 <oerjan> not in norwegian afaik
17:18:39 <olsner> but it's very seldomly used (would sound very swenglish, although it's very old and actually imported from german rather than english)
17:19:44 <olsner> it has synonyms though - avse, angå, röra
17:19:53 <oerjan> might use berøre ("touch")
17:20:07 <oerjan> ah angå as well
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17:50:07 <fizzie> cpressey: Oh, but "concern" would apply to catseye also in the "concern, worry, headache, vexation -- (something or someone that causes anxiety; a source of unhappiness; "New York traffic is a constant concern"; "it's a major worry")" sense pretty well, wouldn't it?
17:50:20 <cpressey> fizzie: Yup :)
17:50:59 <olsner> oh, wasn't that exactly what someone meant?
17:51:03 <cpressey> Whatever is to be done with all these esolangs?
17:51:20 <olsner> "but cat's eye doesn't do anything now" -> "is that something to be worried about?"
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18:52:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there a minimum number of bits required for a Unicode character?
18:53:41 <fizzie> They've promised that all Unicode characters will be in the range from 0 to 0x10ffff, if that's what you mean.
18:54:28 <cpressey> And if that's NOT what you mean, then yes but that's more a question about compression than about Unicode.
18:56:01 <fizzie> Rather large amounts of that range are currently empty, but of course they might fill them later. (Since they did jump from the original 16 bits to 17 planes of that size, I guess it's concievable that they might go all "whoops, we'll need a bit more range after all" again.)
18:56:16 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, um. what encoding?
18:56:34 <AnMaster> unicode is not an encoding after all... utf-8, utf-16, UCS4 and so on are
18:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Not encoding; just the codepoints.
18:56:41 <cpressey> fizzie: As long as they don't introduce a typesetting equivalent of leap seconds...
18:57:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably there's a specified largest codepoint, which can be represented with a fixed number of bits.
18:57:20 <AnMaster> Phantom_Hoover, well, I guess one but for the first two chars, two bits for the first 4 chars and so on :P
18:57:25 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It's a finite range, at least at the moment.
18:57:33 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: 0x10ffff, like I said.
18:57:36 <AnMaster> ah not in that sense
18:57:43 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, the moment? They could embiggen it in the future?
18:57:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, why only 0x10ffff ? And not 0xffffff
18:58:02 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: They could replace the contents of the standard with base64-encoded porn in the future, if they want.
18:58:15 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Anyway, they've sort-of promised they won't.
18:58:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Good enough.
18:58:38 <fizzie> (Expand it, I mean. I don't know if they've made any promises about the porn thing.)
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18:59:30 <fizzie> AnMaster: I don't know why; there's the BMP and then 16 "supplemental planes" of the same size; 17*65536-1 gives 0x10ffff.
19:00:20 <AnMaster> fizzie, huh
19:00:45 <fizzie> It's a bit curious that they defined 16 supplemental planes and not 15; with 15 it'd be a reasonable [0, 0xfffff] range.
19:01:05 <AnMaster> fizzie, 24 bits?
19:01:30 <fizzie> 20 bits. One nybble for the plane, 16 for index in it.
19:01:48 <fizzie> Planes 3-13 (in the numbering where BMP is 0, and the rest are 1...16) are unassigned at the moment, so it's mostly empty still.
19:02:24 <AnMaster> I always thought unicode was 32-bit... Now I'm all confused
19:02:49 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: plane 3 is finally being filled with some other anarchic ideographs.
19:02:51 <Gregor-P> UTF-8 maxes out at 21 bits.
19:02:57 <AnMaster> huh
19:02:59 <fizzie> Like you said, it's not an encoding; there's just the range of defined codepoints.
19:03:08 <cpressey> Maybe that's why there's so much empty space in atoms and galaxies -- reserved for future expansion.
19:03:12 <Gregor-P> 11110xxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
19:04:30 <Gregor-P> Although a five-byte non-standard UTF-8 encoding would be pretty obvious: 111110xx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
19:04:41 <fizzie> And the six-byte, too.
19:04:52 <fizzie> I guess that goes up to the full 32-bit range.
19:05:16 <fizzie> Or maybe not. There's 31 "data" bits in a six-byte sequence.
19:05:39 <Gregor-P> SO CLOSE
19:05:52 <fizzie> Wasn't it so that the earlier UTF-8 spec did go up to 6 bytes?
19:06:01 <fizzie> "The original specification allowed for sequences of up to six bytes covering numbers up to 31 bits (the original limit of the Universal Character Set). However, UTF-8 was restricted by RFC 3629 (Note: IETF doesn't define UTF-8, Unicode does) to use only the area covered by the formal Unicode definition, U+0000 to U+10FFFF, in November 2003."
19:06:06 <fizzie> Right, it seems to have been.
19:06:13 <Gregor-P> Seven-byte, with the first byte containing no payload :P
19:06:31 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: 31-bit limit seems to be a original codepoint space of UCS (before it kept synchronized to unicode)
19:06:43 <fizzie> Gregor-P: You could do that, but it'd be even more nonstandard, if that's a concept.
19:09:16 <Gregor-P> Eight-byte UTF-8 would break all the invariants though :(
19:09:43 <Gregor-P> 11111111 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx 10xxxxxx
19:10:02 <Gregor-P> And nine-byte is crazy stew.
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19:11:11 <zzo38> Why do I get "! Emergency stop." when entering "\relax" at the METAFONT prompt?
19:12:44 <cpressey> Because Irony is still up to her old tricks, it seems.
19:13:17 <olsner> maybe \panic will reset the emergency brakes
19:13:19 <zzo38> I have tried entering other things too, I get the same error regardless of what command I enter.
19:13:36 <zzo38> I get the same error with "\panic"
19:13:47 <zzo38> Just like anything else I try
19:21:10 <Phantom_Hoover> \don't panic
19:22:40 <zzo38> That isn't going to work any better (I did try it anyways)
19:24:10 <cpressey> zzo38: Try "plain" ?
19:24:54 <zzo38> Now I got a whole bunch of stuff but it still stopped
19:25:10 <cpressey> zzo38: OK, so at least that's something
19:25:13 <zzo38> And I got various error messages
19:25:13 <cpressey> I got that from: http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?label=useMF
19:25:44 <zzo38> Including "! Missing `)' has been inserted." and "! Missing `=' has been inserted." and various other things.
19:25:56 <fizzie> Find some sort of metafont example and build on that? It doesn't sound very feasible to just start typing stuff and find things out by trial-and-error, no matter how noble it sounds.
19:26:18 <zzo38> I did find an example, and the example told me to start by typing "\relax".
19:26:39 <cpressey> Bad example! /me whacks example with newspaper
19:26:41 <fizzie> There's a bit on MetaFont in this TeX book -- http://makingtexwork.sourceforge.net/mtw/ch11.html -- but it's mostly about how to run existing programs.
19:26:57 <zzo38> Followed by "a+b-c=0;"
19:27:15 <zzo38> However it stops after "\relax" so I can't get a chance to enter "a+b-c=0;"
19:28:28 <fizzie> Hm.
19:28:36 <zzo38> O, I must have forgotten to build the base files.
19:28:39 <fizzie> "mf" here does what the example says it should.
19:28:51 <fizzie> (Namely, change the prompt from ** to *.)'
19:30:13 <zzo38> Which directories do I build the base with MiKTeX? Is there some environment variables I need to set?
19:31:46 <zzo38> (With TeX it works to enter "\relax" at the "**" prompt and then any TeX codes can be entered, and it won't be emergency stop until CTRL+C is pushed.)
19:32:04 <cpressey> I get the feelin' yer askin' the wrong channel, pilgrim.
19:32:42 <zzo38> cpressey: I do too but what is the right channel? I can't find it
19:33:20 <cpressey> zzo38: errr... have you tried in #latex ?
19:33:35 <cpressey> Just a guess
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19:34:11 <zzo38> O, I tried #TeX and #metafont
19:34:25 <zzo38> Now I know.
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19:46:43 <cpressey> Now I have an itch to build an excessively convoluted command-line interface.
19:52:21 <olsner> after reading some more about php, I now have an itch to get rid of wordpress
19:52:49 <Gregor-P> olsner: And rewrite it in Perl :P
19:53:00 <cpressey> OH BUT PHP IS BEAUTY INCARNATE
19:53:02 <olsner> definitely not perl, anything except perl
19:53:14 <olsner> probably not python either
19:53:34 <Gregor-P> The real problem is that all languages suck.
19:53:37 <olsner> yeah
19:54:04 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, why does PHP incur such hatred?
19:54:07 <cpressey> Some do suck less than others.
19:54:43 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's mostly because it's a language which is easy to write badly in, commonly used by bad programmers, and also badly designed (especially wrt security)
19:54:46 <Gregor-P> PHP's only real problems are that it's like a language from 1985 in terms of features and that its library is an enormous flat namespace.
19:54:58 <cpressey> http://catseye.tc/about/php.html
19:55:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Namespacing never stopped CL...
19:55:29 <Gregor-P> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. Because everyone uses CL.
19:55:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Fair enough.
19:56:15 <cpressey> s/CL/C/
19:56:58 <Gregor-P> Even C has a better namespace story thanks to separate compilation.
19:57:32 <olsner> oh wow, the PHP while loop... what's sad is that it seems *every* feature of php has been implemented similarly
19:57:37 <cpressey> There is THAT. PHP is an interpreted language that doesn't even have separate compilation, go figure.
19:58:19 <Gregor-P> The problem though is that every other language sucks too :P
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19:58:44 <olsner> none of the perfect languages suck!
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19:59:04 <Gregor-P> IMHO PHP is better for its purpose than Python, but worse for any other purpose, and both are terrible :P
19:59:07 <olsner> neither do any of the non-perfect but still non-sucky ones
19:59:59 <cpressey> Haskell doesn't suck.
20:00:00 <olsner> Gregor-P: you mean it's better than python for php's purpose or better than python is for *its* purpose?
20:00:02 <cpressey> HAHAHAHA
20:00:25 <Gregor-P> olsner: Better thab Python at being PHP :P
20:00:31 <Gregor-P> *than
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20:01:15 <Gregor-P> cpressey: I DESPERATELY want somebody to write a Hackiki userland in Haskell :P
20:02:49 <Gregor-P> It would be AWESOME
20:03:09 <cpressey> Gregor-P: yeah yeah. So what would it take for a language to not suck?\
20:03:25 <cpressey> Because I agree, they all do. Even if some more than others.
20:03:46 <cpressey> The soft ones are too soft and the hard ones are too hard.
20:04:01 <Gregor-P> I don't know.
20:04:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, they suck, ultimately, because you can't go straight from thoughts to code.
20:04:18 <Gregor-P> Plof ain't it, as fun as it is :P
20:04:25 <cpressey> Oh god, maintaining someone else's thoughts would be a nightmare.
20:04:42 <Gregor-P> cpressey: ... literally.
20:04:50 <cpressey> Yeah pretty much.
20:08:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, define "perfect" for a language.
20:09:18 <Gregor-P> Oh, is the problem that simple? X-P
20:09:33 <olsner> take all existing good-enough languages, eliminate their suckage, you should end up with perfection
20:12:08 <relet> yup, but it won't compile.
20:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, what languages do you define as "good enough"?
20:16:17 <olsner> the ones that are good enough, of course
20:17:19 <Gregor-P> Also, they're "good enough" in wildly incompatible ways and for completely different reasons.
20:17:39 <olsner> hmm, ok, of the ones I've tried, probably haskell is the only one that qualifies
20:17:53 <Gregor-P> NOT GOOD ENOUGH
20:18:10 <olsner> and C is pretty close due to its simplicity (but is lacking obvious enhancements that would make it good enough)
20:18:26 <Gregor-P> Plof is the king of languages and the language of kings.
20:20:25 <Gregor-P> How about recursiveC: a C-based language in which you can define arbitrary code to be "static", and the output of that static code is code. You could implement e.g. OO as libraries. Compile to fixed-point!
20:20:59 <cpressey> Haskell, Python, Java, and C have a significantly lower rate of making me vomit than PHP, and C++
20:21:19 <cpressey> Not sure about Perl -- it's in between
20:21:35 <cpressey> Not sure about Ruby either
20:21:42 <olsner> "The core bytecode language is only a few hundred operations" :/ java makes do with just over 100 iirc, and that's with many operations duplicated for ints, longs, doubles, floats and objects
20:22:22 <cpressey> Gregor-P: RecursiveC sounds like an idiomatically Gregoresque language.
20:23:05 <fizzie> Gregor-P: re recursiveC: DOUBLE COMPILE. (reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WxJECOFg8w and related)
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20:25:13 <olsner> Gregor-P: C++ did that, but instead of overloading yet another meaning of 'static' they introduced a new keyword: 'template'
20:27:47 <cpressey> See, Plof is far far too soft and recursiveC is far far too hard.
20:28:46 <cpressey> I suspect we still (as a species) have yet to learn how to specify programming languages well.
20:29:02 <cpressey> And "still have yet" is redundant.
20:29:12 <cpressey> So there, cpressey. :P
20:30:11 <olsner> is it redundant? I think there's been a number of projects that tried to fix the "have yet to learn", but it didn't help and we *still* "have yet to learn" it
20:30:34 <cpressey> Hm, ok, maybe not. Awkward, though....
20:31:59 <olsner> same goes for most of the other aspects of making software IMO, "software engineering" = lol
20:33:53 <cpressey> olsner: Agreed.
20:37:19 <cpressey> "Better is Worse": your tab completion is so clever, it hangs
20:39:52 <Phantom_Hoover> *coughzshcough*
20:40:13 <cpressey> Ah, let's not forget, all shells suck, too. And editors.
20:40:37 <cpressey> And all wikis
20:40:42 <cpressey> EXCEPT FOR HACKIKI
20:47:45 <Gregor-P> Yesh
20:48:30 <Gregor-P> olsner: C++ totally does not fit my definition, you can't generate truly arbitrary C++ from templates
20:50:41 <Gregor-P> olsner: Oh and by the way, Java and Plof's bytecodes are roughly the same size in terms of total number of instructions, though what those instructions do is of course wildly different.
20:51:12 <cpressey> I think it would be nice to have a pragma or such that says "Try to reduce this expression to a constant at compile time". Instead of something as heavy-handed as defining it as a macro.
20:51:26 <Gregor-P> In fact ... come to think of it, I'm not sure where "few hundred" came from ...
20:52:01 <cpressey> (Of course, you couldn't stop such a pragma from hanging on arbitrary code.)
20:52:39 <olsner> java has 204, so a bit more than just 100, but still "a few hundred" is a huge number of op-codes imo :)
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20:54:09 <Gregor-W> The truthiness about the size of PSL: 88 core opcodes, plus 13 for the C foreign function interface (probably less for other potential FFIs)
20:54:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-P, isn't your suggestion just Lisp's macro system wedged into C
20:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ?
20:54:38 <fizzie> CIL (that .NET thing) has 229 opcodes; it's in the same ballpark as the Java VM.
20:55:00 <cpressey> CIL, aka the C# Virtual Machine.
20:55:27 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: Kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda, but since the "static" code (choose a better keyword) is C, the behavior would be wildly different.
20:55:43 <Gregor-W> And declaring that Lisp is the answer to all problems is the problem to all answers.
20:55:52 <fizzie> Gregor-W: In the sense that it would be a lot more painful to write, sure.
20:56:12 <Gregor-W> Just depends on how much jelly we're willing to nail to the tree of C to make it easier.
20:56:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-W, you'd need to operate on the AST to avoid insanity, really.
20:56:37 <Gregor-W> HEY GUYS this is not a real idea it was just a joke I spat from my brain :P
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20:56:40 <Phantom_Hoover> And making the AST part of the language standard is surely madness.
20:57:23 <olsner> Gregor-W: a joke? you should know you can't joke about stuff like that here
20:57:34 <Gregor-W> Hey, if somebody wants to write it, sweet.
20:58:02 <cpressey> Beer to Phantom_Hoover.
20:58:53 <olsner> I'm thinking about actually implementing something like that in my language at some point, but it would probably be limited to type functions and use some kind of quasi-quoting
20:59:35 <Gregor-W> I was thinking about implementing that in my language. Then: PLOF! :P
20:59:43 <olsner> of course
20:59:45 <Gregor-W> (Which is to say, that BECAME the language :P )
20:59:58 <cpressey> Doesn't... oh never mind.
21:00:03 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, what's your language like?
21:00:36 <olsner> Phantom_Hoover: somewhat like sugar and spice and all things nice
21:00:55 <olsner> no, it's just a silly little language, nothing to worry about
21:01:31 <Gregor-W> Nothing to see here, move along, move along?
21:01:39 <olsner> yep
21:02:14 <cpressey> Well, I have an idea for a C-like language with explicit malloc and free but provably safe. But it wouldn't be doing this "staticification" thing so far as I know.
21:03:52 <olsner> provably safe against which kinds of abuse?
21:04:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Disconnected by services).
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21:04:28 <cpressey> Um, never executing any machine code that you didn't mean to. Buffer overruns and such.
21:05:01 <Gregor-W> Oh, I figured you meant provably type-safe, never possible to dereference into data of one type while thinking it's another type.
21:05:09 <Gregor-W> If you have this wussy concept of safe, then it might be more feasible.
21:05:39 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:05:59 <cpressey> It's type-safe for a certain type system.
21:06:10 <cpressey> It's not a very large or interesting type system...
21:06:19 <Gregor-P> lawl
21:06:33 <Gregor-P> I <3 that argument
21:07:14 <Gregor-P> If you define the type system such that the language is type-safe, *poof*, type safety! :P
21:09:11 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:17:34 <cpressey> There are only 3 types: integers, structure of (type*), and pointer to type (which may or may not be valid.) But in that, it should be "type safe", including the property that you can't dereference an invalid pointer.
21:23:26 <Gregor-P> You'll either need whole-program analysis, or for parameters to be marked "freeable"
21:23:48 <Gregor-P> Or, for free to be a no-op :P
21:26:30 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
21:27:09 <cpressey> Not sure what you mean about marking parameters "freeable". The other two I know I'm not going to do...
21:29:02 <cpressey> But I don't think I'll be doing that either. Speaking literally, any pointer could be free()d at any time.
21:30:07 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
21:31:58 <Gregor-W> So here's my basic fear and reasoning: struct nasty { void (*nasty)(); }; void evil(struct nasty *n) { free(n); malloc(somegarbageWhichWillNowTakeNsPlace); } void main() { struct nasty *n = malloc(sizeof(struct nasty)); n->nasty = something reasonable; evil(n); n->nasty(); } // how can you possibly avoid this case if you don't statically know whether evil() frees?
21:33:13 <Gregor-W> You can either disallow it, but it generalizes to "make any use of a pointer after aliasing it or using it as a parameter", or ... well, or nothing.
21:33:24 <cpressey> Well, for one, I don't have function pointers. But I suppose that's a theoretically moot point, but give me some time to mentally translate the problem.
21:34:44 <Gregor-W> The function pointer was just to make it immediately obvious, it could be any pointer, maybe even other shtuff.
21:35:10 <olsner> hmm, you'd need to have some kind of ownership tracking and put that in the type system, wouldn't you?
21:35:14 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, removing function pointers is if anything a step backwards.
21:35:38 <cpressey> Gregor-W: Well, perhaps I should qualify my use of the word "pointer". Pointers in my language don't map directly to machine pointers. They have some smarts in them.
21:36:07 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: A step backwards? Define "forwards".
21:36:17 <Gregor-W> Unless those "smarts" are a garbage collector, I doubt it's sufficient :P
21:36:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, being able to pass functions as arguments is extremely useful.
21:36:38 <cpressey> Gregor-W: K, well, I'm not certain myself. We'll see :)
21:36:52 <Gregor-W> I look forward to it.
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22:11:32 <alise> I have no beliefs that cannot be dissuaded with cake.
22:12:00 <cpressey> What of the belief that you have no beliefs that cannot be dissuaded with cake?
22:12:05 * cpressey offers alise some cake
22:12:13 <cpressey> Hm? Hm?
22:12:33 <alise> I refuse the cake.
22:13:16 <cpressey> Drat. Well, twas worth a show.
22:13:20 <cpressey> Or a shot
22:15:23 <alise> Yer not the only one with a crazy OS, cpressey. >:|
22:15:30 <alise> I am implanting evil ideas into Phantom_Hoover's head.
22:15:38 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover!
22:15:43 <cpressey> Sorry, reflex.
22:15:45 <alise> 05:28:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Ian?
22:15:50 <alise> I can neither confirm nor deny.
22:15:51 <alise> cpressey: wat.
22:16:09 <cpressey> alise: Ask oerjan about Phantom_Hoover's mind control device sometime.
22:16:32 <cpressey> Now what about Ian?
22:16:46 <alise> Ah, right.
22:17:01 <alise> Ian is someone's middle name whose initials are ais and who, on some university, has account number 523 of his initials.
22:17:04 <alise> I will say no more!
22:17:44 <cpressey> That would certainly explain the middle initial, then.
22:23:35 <Gregor-P> But I only have aaaaaaaaaaaais for youuuuuuuuu (why did this pop into my head :P)
22:30:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:40:53 <olsner> cpressey: the mind-control device that lets Phantom_Hoover control other people's minds or the one that lets us control his mind?
22:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, ask oerjan!
22:41:55 <olsner> is he the resident expert on Phantom_Hoover mind control?
22:42:14 <Phantom_Hoover> He's the only one that will talk about it.
22:43:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:06:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:08:22 -!- pikhq has joined.
23:08:52 <pikhq> INTERNET
23:09:46 <coppro> YAY
23:11:03 <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:11:27 -!- Gregor-W has joined.
23:11:31 <Gregor-W> pikhq: http://codu.org/music/op13/GRegor-op13-mov2-wipp10.ogg kthx :P
23:11:35 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Client Quit).
23:12:15 <pikhq> ... Did he actually have a script set to ping him for my joining?
23:13:01 <coppro> haha
23:13:11 <Gregor-P> No, I was just too lazy to type that URL on my phone :P
23:13:16 <pikhq> :P
23:13:29 * pikhq shall listen to that after finishing Bohemian Rhapsody
23:13:38 <Gregor-P> It's a long URL! D-8
23:14:12 * pikhq loves having good Internet again
23:14:21 <pikhq> Not just Internet, but *good* Internet.
23:14:35 <pikhq> Deciding to move 4 days before moving is t3h awesome. :P
23:15:05 <alise> pikhq: So are you in Hick Town now, or Hicky Hick Town?
23:15:22 <alise> As opposed to your previous residence, Hicky Hick Hicky Hick Hicky Hick Hicky Hick (Hicky Hick)^G_64 Town?
23:15:26 <pikhq> alise: I'm in a suburb of an actual (shock) city!
23:15:39 <alise> Hahahahaha, but seriously now, which is it.
23:15:50 <alise> * [pikhq] lindbohm.freenode.net :Stockholm, Sweden
23:15:52 <alise> Question answered.
23:16:02 <alise> (Note: Server locations TOTALLY ARE people locations.)
23:16:33 <alise> `addquote <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:16:42 <HackEgo> 204|<pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:18:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Cool, I'm in Oregon.
23:18:23 <coppro> alise: you realize that's just your server?
23:18:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Is there anything in Oregon?
23:18:33 <Phantom_Hoover> I DON'T KNOw
23:18:35 <alise> coppro: <alise> (Note: Server locations TOTALLY ARE people locations.)
23:18:42 <coppro> Freenode whois doesn't tell you which server someone's on, just which server location you're on
23:18:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Which Oregon?
23:18:49 <alise> Erm.
23:18:52 <alise> I thought you said Portland.
23:18:54 <Phantom_Hoover> The one in the Us.
23:19:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: My answer, then, is that there is Portland, wherein there is David Parsons.
23:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> I do not know who that is.
23:19:32 <alise> Minimalist grumpy coder extraordinaire!
23:19:37 <pikhq> Gregor-P: So far (4:30), I quite like Opus 13, movement 2, WIP 10.
23:19:39 <alise> Also, that guy whose name I forget.
23:19:47 <cpressey> !*^&*@%@#
23:19:51 <alise> Nick Welch.
23:20:01 <alise> He is also a minimalist grumpy coder but less of both. (The TinyWM author)
23:20:10 <Gregor-P> Also I'm from there!
23:20:31 <pikhq> ... What the hell so many packets at once
23:20:43 <alise> Gregor-P: I was mentioning people worth knowing
23:20:49 <alise> *I was talking about people
23:20:59 <Gregor-P> :'(
23:21:27 -!- Gregor-P has changed nick to Gregor-Portlandi.
23:21:30 <alise> Gregor-P: Aww I'm kidding you're adorable like a fluffy teddy bear, now where is the documentation for libavcodec? I can't find any.
23:21:31 <cpressey> Ooh, I be quoted twice in one day.
23:21:32 <Gregor-Portlandi> Foo
23:21:42 <alise> `quote 199
23:21:44 <HackEgo> 199|<Sgeo> Why shouldn't I just do everything in non-Microsoft-specific C#? <ais523> it's like trying to write non-IE-specific JavaScript with only Microsoft documentation and only IE to test on
23:21:44 -!- Gregor-Portlandi has changed nick to Gregor-P.
23:21:48 <alise> `quote 204
23:21:50 <HackEgo> 204|<pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath.
23:21:52 <alise> `quote 203
23:21:57 <HackEgo> 203|<Phantom_Hoover> OK, so is conspiring to conspire to commit a crime a crime? <cpressey> Let's all get together and talk about defacing public property sometime
23:22:10 <alise> TWO! TWO!
23:22:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Dammit, I have the longest nick on this channel. Me
23:22:48 <Phantom_Hoover> s/$/!/
23:22:56 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.).
23:23:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I suggest "pH".
23:23:07 -!- alise has changed nick to pH.
23:23:11 <pH> AWW IT'S TAKEN.
23:23:14 <pH> It is slick though.
23:23:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to PH______________.
23:23:18 <PH______________> Ha!
23:23:25 -!- pH has changed nick to alise.
23:23:40 * PH______________ is Very Untrustworthy
23:24:28 -!- PH______________ has changed nick to f.
23:24:39 <f> I cannot believe this isn't taken.
23:24:42 <f> Or maybe...
23:24:44 <alise> It is.
23:24:48 <alise> It's reserved.
23:24:52 <alise> Like almost all single-char names.
23:24:58 <alise> The others are really-old-timers, or staff.
23:25:04 <f> Yes, but I can still take it...
23:25:04 <alise> Mostly staff, and they never use it.
23:25:28 -!- alise has changed nick to pH7.
23:25:41 -!- pH7 has changed nick to alise.
23:26:18 -!- f has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
23:27:58 <alise> Dear God:
23:28:04 <alise> Please supply me with libavcodec documentation.
23:28:05 <alise> <3,
23:28:05 <alise> alise
23:28:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to God.
23:28:18 <alise> I swear it has no official docs.
23:28:22 <alise> Seriously.
23:28:24 <cpressey> Why should it?
23:28:34 <God> alise, my child, I can only manifest for 30 seconds
23:28:39 <God> The docs are at...
23:28:41 -!- Gregor-P has changed nick to write.
23:28:46 <alise> cpressey: Because it's the main part of FFmpeg, a super-major software project?
23:28:48 -!- God has changed nick to Guest26718.
23:28:54 <write> I forgot that I own this nick :P
23:29:02 -!- Guest26718 has changed nick to read.
23:29:10 -!- read has changed nick to Moriarty.
23:29:17 <cpressey> alise: OPEN!!!!! SOURCE!!!!!
23:29:28 <alise> cpressey: No dissing ffmpeg. That's Fabrice Bellard you're dissing there.
23:29:33 <alise> You Do Not Diss Fabrice Fucking Bellard.
23:29:43 <pikhq> alise: Fabrice Bellard is not known for comprehensive documentation.
23:29:45 -!- Moriarty has changed nick to grub.
23:29:48 <cpressey> No diss express or implied.
23:29:52 <alise> Yeah, but he isn't them main FFmpeg dev any more :P
23:29:53 <write> Fabrice Fucking Bellard. Mmmmmmmmmmm
23:30:11 -!- write has changed nick to Gregor-P.
23:30:13 <alise> All Gregor's gay fantasies are open source-related and preferably autosexual.
23:30:15 -!- grub has changed nick to Guest19696.
23:30:19 -!- Guest19696 has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
23:30:21 <alise> Oh, or Apollo-related.
23:30:42 <Gregor-P> alise: Not all of them!
23:30:55 <alise> Okay, but you don't tell us about the rest.
23:32:10 <cpressey> alise: Can't I be a zealot about how DARE you ask for documentation on a product where you can read the KODE?? Oh, *can't* I? PulEEZE?
23:32:15 <alise> DOGS that are simultaneously MACHINES.
23:32:25 <alise> Dashing DOG Machines; they are invading our Planet.
23:32:37 <alise> cpressey: Well, with a literate program, yeah, you could. :P
23:33:14 <Gregor-P> That's because the nick list of this channel IS the rest!
23:33:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor-P, what about theoretical females on the channel?
23:33:56 <alise> They're gay fantasies too.
23:34:05 <alise> Gregor-P: You /could/ just be blatant about it and, say, propose a channel-wide orgy.
23:34:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there actually any women on this channel?
23:34:49 <alise> No. Used to be.
23:34:49 <Gregor-P> I PROPOSE A CHANNEL-WIDE ORGY however alise is not invited for legal, ethical and personal reasons.
23:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> The only one I can think of seems to be lament.
23:34:59 <alise> Gregor-P: My heart is crushed.
23:35:58 <alise> Gregor-P: You understand if I stalk you down and murder you, right?
23:36:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, not if I murder YOU first.
23:37:01 <alise> Cool, everyone in this channel can end up chasing each other and end up inadvertently having Gregor-P's planned orgy.
23:37:31 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you're in the forbidden zone for the Device.
23:37:45 <alise> I USE THE DEVICE
23:37:48 <alise> Whatever it is.
23:37:55 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, lament is not female.
23:38:39 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I thought lament's real name was Nikita something?
23:38:56 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, and Nikita is not solely a female name.
23:39:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Ahh.
23:39:10 <Phantom_Hoover> So there are none...
23:39:30 <alise> lol
23:39:35 <alise> lament is very much male :P
23:39:42 <cpressey> lament is one of two other esolangers I've met in person. (The other was BEM.)
23:39:47 <alise> and a certified Crazy Op, so BE CAREFUL
23:39:49 <alise> cpressey: BEM?
23:39:57 <alise> Also, is he as unstable in real life?
23:39:58 <cpressey> BEM = Ben Olmstead, of Malbolge
23:40:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Crazy Op?
23:40:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He runs this chan.
23:40:08 <alise> Well, not really.
23:40:10 <cpressey> BEM = Bug-Eyed Monster
23:40:10 <Phantom_Hoover> AAAAAAAAAAAAA
23:40:11 <alise> He de jure runs this chan.
23:40:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit).
23:40:38 <cpressey> alise: He was very nice in real life. Ask him how unstable *I* am sometime :D
23:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Who's the Mysterious Founder, then?
23:40:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: andreou or someon
23:40:51 <alise> *someone
23:40:53 <alise> I forget the exact name.
23:40:58 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Aardappel was founder at one point.
23:41:13 <alise> (of FALSE, Sauerbraten fame.)
23:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Who started the channel itself?
23:41:17 <alise> Andreou or someone.
23:41:17 <cpressey> Uh, I would have thought "founder" was an immutable property.
23:41:19 <cpressey> Silly me!
23:41:22 <alise> I forget precisely. It's in the list logs somewhere.
23:41:27 <alise> cpressey: Welcome to ChanServ!
23:41:42 <alise> cpressey: Please abandon your sanity at the door. If you don't have any, get some then abandon it.
23:42:41 <alise> Let's see... channel founding is late 2002...
23:43:05 <alise> Hmm, where has it gone.
23:43:27 <Gregor-P> I think the established point is that if we had a channel-wide orgy, we'd all be on equal footing :P
23:43:30 <alise> HEre we go.
23:43:36 <alise> From: "Al. Andreou" <ee4299@ee.teiath.gr>
23:43:36 <alise> X-X-Sender: <andreou@gin.bar>
23:43:36 <alise> To: <chat@esoteric.sange.fi>
23:43:36 <alise> Subject: [chat] Esolang IRC channel
23:43:42 <alise> He set up the channel on EFnet as #esoterica.
23:43:54 <alise> lament then suggested moving to the Open Projects Network (freenode).
23:44:00 <cpressey> Oooh, X-X-Sender
23:44:08 <alise> andreou then refounded this very channel.
23:44:13 <alise> grep /IRC/: http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/2002-q4
23:44:16 <alise> *Grep
23:44:30 <alise> Aardappel was a founder at one point, I think; or at least an op.
23:44:58 <alise> Incidentally, even in 2003/2004, lament was talking about how the channel is so dead nowadays. :)
23:45:14 <alise> Of course, the graphs say that activity has been steadily increasing since forever...
23:45:18 <cpressey> Well, I have a grammar for Eightebed. It's 19 lines long. Now I have to implement it.
23:45:30 <olsner> is there a mailing list? or is that dead by now?
23:45:31 <alise> cpressey: I have a feeling Eightebed is not your most thoughtful esolang yet.
23:45:34 <alise> olsner: yes, it exists
23:45:49 <alise> olsner: if you sign up, every few months -- years, sometimes -- you get a quick thread of fun with some nice faces shown
23:45:52 <cpressey> alise: It's not super esoteric, no.
23:45:59 <alise> olsner: the price is a 2000% increase in spam box traffic
23:46:05 <olsner> alise: heh, ok
23:46:05 <alise> olsner: (barely even an exaggeration)
23:46:09 <alise> olsner: It's fine if you have gmail. :P
23:46:21 <alise> cpressey: But it must be ENLIGHTENING!
23:46:48 <alise> Sorry; EIGHTEBEDING!
23:47:09 <cpressey> alise: It's a design in response to Gregor's comments about why a language like Cyclone should have GC. (It's a language with explicit malloc/free, with only a modicum of static analysis, but which is nonetheless safe.)
23:47:35 <alise> I know what Cyclone is.
23:47:44 <alise> Anyway, pah, I hereby copyright Eightebed(C).
23:47:44 -!- SgeoN1 has joined.
23:47:45 <Gregor-P> s/should/must/
23:47:49 <cpressey> Maybe I should have put "should" in quotes -- see log over past few days for the various views of the parties mentioned.
23:47:49 <alise> Yes, I am copyrighting names now.
23:47:54 <alise> Also trademarking. And registered trademarking.
23:47:59 <alise> Eightebed(C)(R)(TM).
23:48:14 <SgeoN1> I don't like being forced to do things
23:48:23 <cpressey> alise: What must I do to get your permission to use the name Eightebed then?
23:48:40 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, I have the Device.
23:48:47 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover!
23:48:52 <cpressey> Oh, I see that you do.
23:49:10 <SgeoN1> Wait, is Sgeo here?
23:49:15 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you see, it follows the inverse square law.
23:49:25 <alise> cpressey: It involves five yaks, a Golden toad that hasn't eaten for five days, five boxes of antique confetti (not stripped of uranium), dye number 90 (blood green), a very confused weasel, and three pieces of A4.15 paper.
23:49:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Running it on alise would be... ugly.
23:49:43 <SgeoN1> Yes. But Sgeo is AFK. There is only SgeoN1
23:50:04 <SgeoN1> And XUL
23:50:19 <alise> Wow, you reference Mozilla namespace pages before Ghostbusters.
23:50:27 <alise> cpressey: Can you supply these things?
23:50:40 <cpressey> alise: Well then! I may have to consult my lawyer. Who, thankfully, is also my yak husbander.
23:50:52 <SgeoN1> I was aware that the XUL thing was a reference of some sort...
23:51:04 <alise> SgeoN1: You've never seen Ghostbusters?
23:51:09 <alise> Please tell me that you have seen Ghostbusters.
23:51:22 <cpressey> The confetti will be hard to acquire. The weasel's state of confusion, however, should not.
23:51:31 <SgeoN1> Sorry
23:51:45 <alise> SgeoN1: Okay, so that is why you are so strange.
23:51:50 <alise> SgeoN1: I prescribe one dosage of Ghostbusters.
23:51:52 <Phantom_Hoover> SgeoN1, you haven't seen Ghostbusters?
23:51:55 <Phantom_Hoover> :O
23:51:57 <pikhq> SgeoN1: ... You have been living under a rock.
23:51:58 <alise> SgeoN1: Actually. Make that two.
23:52:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, haven't seen the second one.
23:52:20 <alise> No.
23:52:22 <alise> I just mean two dosages.
23:52:27 <alise> cpressey: I request that all harm is done to animals in the making of this production.
23:52:29 -!- Wamanuz2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:53:00 -!- Wamanuz2 has joined.
23:53:20 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, can we use the Device for doing harm?
23:53:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: /I have no idea what you are talking about./
23:53:44 <Phantom_Hoover> No, of course not.
23:53:53 <Phantom_Hoover> The Device has a habit of causing that.
23:54:29 <SgeoN1> SCP-055?
23:54:43 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe.
23:54:51 <Phantom_Hoover> I've forgotten myself.
23:55:14 <SgeoN1> Forgotten what?
23:55:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Exactly.
23:56:38 <pikhq> It is definitely not a cube. Whatever it was I was talking about is definitely not a cube.
23:56:54 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, SCP-055 is simply designed so that it slips right off the human mind, while the Device is rather more... proactive.
23:57:02 <alise> It's the world's most evil sex toy.
23:57:34 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, not originally. It might be repurposable to that end.
23:57:53 <alise> Anyone know how to make the first line of a LaTeX paragraph all in small-caps?
23:58:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I thought you were the resident LaTeX knowitall.
23:58:44 * SgeoN1 ponders making an epub of the FLR
23:59:56 <alise> SgeoN1: LaTeX the FLR. Oh god, I must do that.
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