←2010-08-05 2010-08-06 2010-08-07→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:00:09 <Phantom_Hoover> It's far more likely that his evil twin murdered him.
00:00:44 <cpressey> Yes! And his evil twin, being evil, is Left-handed!
00:00:49 <cpressey> It all makes sense now!
00:01:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course1
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00:05:19 <Sgeo__> I don't know Gregor-W
00:06:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo__, you're kidding, right?
00:06:27 <Sgeo__> What does -W mean? Windows?
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00:06:36 <cpressey> W is for Work
00:06:38 <Sgeo__> Ah
00:06:44 <cpressey> P is for Phone
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00:06:48 * Sgeo__ knew that
00:06:55 <Sgeo__> (The Phone, not the Work)
00:07:04 <cpressey> L is for Evil Twin Sunk the Ferry I Was On
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00:45:00 <Sgeo__> comex, what is Rock?
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01:43:22 <Gregor-P> -L and [no suffix] are currently the same system, since my laptop is my primary machine right now.
01:43:39 <Gregor-P> I have ... a lot of ways to connect to IRC
01:46:51 * Sgeo__ is now in the Futurama-watching room
01:48:50 * Sgeo__ ponders allowing Pharo to accept Ruby syntax
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02:31:26 <Sgeo__> Last week's Futurama is now on, in case anyone missed it. If you missed it, WATCH IT!
02:35:24 <Sgeo__> {{ I'd respond with "SURELY YOU MEAN", but I didn't misspell "Last week", afaik }}
02:37:43 <olsner> is it a different futurama each week?
02:39:03 <pikhq> Yes; Futurama is airing again.
02:45:11 <Gregor-P> You Euros'll get it in a year or three I'm sure.
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02:49:17 <pikhq> Gregor-P: Internet! Bits! Speed of electricity!
02:54:51 <Gregor-P> ILLEGALS
02:55:06 <Gregor-P> Interweb anchor babies!
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03:24:32 <olsner> Sgeo__: ok, I'm watching it now
03:24:42 <Sgeo__> It's almost over
03:25:03 <olsner> on the contrary, it's only just begun
03:41:46 <olsner> hmm, torchwood is a pretty shoddy series
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08:36:20 <oerjan> * Sgeo__ is now in the Futurama-watching room <-- does it have a small shrine?
08:36:33 <oerjan> or a big one, even
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09:32:01 <Flonk> good morning.
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13:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo!
13:07:29 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover!
13:08:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Still doing whatever it was you were doing?
13:09:38 <Sgeo> You mean the project?
13:09:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes. The Project.
13:10:04 <Sgeo> It's live, but development is on hold while I wait for a testing environment
13:11:33 <Phantom_Hoover> What does it *do*?
13:11:42 <Sgeo> It's a game
13:12:02 <Sgeo> A futuristic remake of an older game [now defunct] that was in the same environment
13:15:51 <Phantom_Hoover> What older game?
13:18:04 <augur> you're only allowed to use alise's haskell on pro-GNOME operating systems.
13:18:14 <Sgeo> http://wiki.activeworlds.com/index.php?title=Mutation
13:18:15 <augur> why?
13:18:20 <augur> BECAUSE OF THE GNOME-ADS
13:18:22 <augur> 8D
13:18:23 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, alise's Haskell?
13:18:27 <augur> yes.
13:18:32 <augur> alise's implementaiton.
13:18:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah. In what?
13:18:48 <augur> you sure dont get the joke
13:20:48 * Sgeo gets the joke, but I assume "alise's" is just unnecessary
13:21:00 <augur> well
13:21:05 <augur> definitely not
13:21:11 <augur> its definite necessary
13:21:22 <augur> otherwise it'd be a pro-sex operating system
13:21:26 <augur> because of all the moan ads
13:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> I assume it's a play on "Monads", but I don't get where alise comes from.
13:21:50 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: alise has this thing
13:21:56 <augur> jokes about "monad" and "nomad"
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14:18:24 <Sgeo> "Another nasty problem arises if you use a mutable object, i.e., an object
14:18:24 <Sgeo> that can change its hash value over time, as an element of a Set or as a key to
14:18:24 <Sgeo> a Dictionary. Dont do this unless you love debugging!"
14:18:34 <Sgeo> Someone should make an esolang where that's no big deal
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16:46:53 <alise> cellophane illegal
16:47:01 <pikhq> Quod?
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16:48:26 <alise> pikhq: et establishum
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16:50:44 <pikhq> alise: Malkompren'
16:51:01 <cpressey> And now, we're going to play a track from Cellophane Illegal's new album, "Et Establishum". It's called "Malkompren'"... enjoy.
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16:51:17 <pikhq> :D
16:51:31 <alise> cpressey: actually, those /are/ awesome band and album names ...
16:51:36 <pikhq> They are.
16:51:52 <cpressey> I know!
16:53:06 <alise> "This track is 7:06 long, which is the same as SIX MINUTES AND SIXTY-SIX SECONDS. And if you play it backwards, it sounds like 'Malkompren'', a song by Cellophane Illegal, a band known to be Satanists -- one of their tracks is 6 minutes and 66 seconds long. Coincidence? You decide."
16:54:52 <alise> pikhq: Apparently, fast images in Super Hi-Vision may cause motion sickness.
16:55:04 <alise> This source is Gizmodo via NHK, so credibility is, uh, zero.
16:55:27 <pikhq> I'd trust NHK, but not Gizmodo...
16:55:44 <pikhq> However, I suggest that this is bullshit.
16:55:44 <alise> pikhq: I said NHK because of the language barrier.
16:55:53 <alise> Erm.
16:55:55 <alise> NHK via Gizmodo.
16:56:05 <alise> i.e., NHK said it, Gizmodo fucked with it until it sounded hyperbolic.
16:57:11 <pikhq> It's just 4320p; *effectively* the same resolution as analog IMAX.
16:57:37 <pikhq> (of course, comparing digital and analog video when both are high-quality is fairly subjective)
16:57:46 <alise> Incidentally, Toy Story 3 is good.
16:58:01 <pikhq> It's a Pixar film.
16:58:20 <alise> Yes. Yes it is.
16:58:34 <alise> It was Touched by the Holy Hand of His Holiness Steve.
17:00:25 <alise> May I present Exhibit A?
17:00:42 <pikhq> Sure.
17:00:46 <alise> Barbie: Authority should derive from the consent of the governed, not from threat of force!
17:01:02 <pikhq> LMAO
17:01:12 <alise> (No, Barbie is nothing like this in it for anything other than this one line.)
17:03:46 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:04:28 <alise> hi ais523
17:05:47 <ais523> hi alise
17:08:08 <alise> [Five-Minute "Threshold"]
17:08:09 <alise> Janeway: This event will stand with some of the most memorable in history.
17:08:09 <alise> Paris: Yeah. Wilbur Wright...Neil Armstrong...Zephram Cochrane ...
17:08:09 <alise> Janeway: I was thinking "Spock's Brain"..."Shades of Gray"..."Let He Who is Without Sin..."...
17:15:36 <pikhq> alise: :D
17:16:58 <alise> So the one flaw of my lovely laptop is that it is not powerful enough to decode 1080p. I think 720p slows it down a bit too.
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17:22:46 * alise downloads "All Good Things..." from that uber-high-quality rip of TNG to review the quality. THESE KINDS OF THINGS ARE IMPORTANT!
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17:23:28 <alise> Hello Gregor-Urine.
17:23:41 * alise mature
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17:24:38 <Gregor-P> ... wow
17:25:02 <pikhq> alise: If it is absolutely super-awesome, then glee.
17:25:08 <oerjan> <augur> BECAUSE OF THE GNOME-ADS
17:25:19 * oerjan whacks augur with the saucepan ===\__/
17:26:34 <alise> pikhq: It has a downside, though. Wesley, too, will be in high-definition.
17:27:04 <pikhq> alise: As will beardless Riker.
17:27:06 <pikhq> *shudder*
17:27:29 <alise> pikhq: Yes, but you can avoid him more than you can avoid Wesley.
17:27:51 <alise> This is ridiculous, how can two episodes be 1.6 GiB?
17:27:57 <alise> Why am I not downloading at a greater speed? >_>
17:28:18 <alise> Let's see how well mplayer can play partial files.
17:28:22 <pikhq> Best thing about moving back to CO: REAL. GOD. DAMNED. INTERNET.
17:28:29 <alise> Speed?
17:28:29 <pikhq> And mplayer can play partial files very well.
17:28:40 <alise> This is America, so let me guess: 3 Kb/s, on a good day?
17:28:57 <pikhq> I think it's sitting at about 40 megabits/sec.
17:29:06 <alise> ...Oh, the uploader merged "All Good Things..."'s two parts.
17:29:15 <alise> So I was downloading Preemptive Strike, too.
17:29:21 <oerjan> in CO, god is real, but the internet is damned
17:29:27 <oerjan> good to know.
17:29:31 * pikhq tests
17:29:37 <alise> pikhq: Whfuck you.
17:29:44 <alise> (1) Fuck you all I have is 8 Mb
17:29:49 <alise> (2) I'm moving in see you soon brb plane
17:30:29 <alise> Is there a ... takeWhileFold?
17:30:35 <alise> e.g., "take while sum < 3"
17:30:57 <alise> takeWhileFold (+) (< 3) lst
17:32:05 <oerjan> um what's tested the sum or the list values
17:32:16 <oerjan> oh hm
17:32:30 <oerjan> oh and what's returned, for that matter
17:33:20 <alise> oh with 0 in there too
17:33:41 <oerjan> obviously there is no single such predefined functino
17:33:46 <alise> basically we see if "fold[rl] (+) 0 [] < 3" fits, else sub "take 1 lst" for []
17:33:54 <alise> else sub "take 2 lst"
17:33:55 <alise> etc
17:33:55 <alise> mm
17:34:32 <oerjan> alise: can you give an actual _example_, your explanation is not clear
17:35:07 <alise> well
17:35:15 <alise> takeWhile tries [], take 1 lst, take 2 lst, take 3 lst, ..., lst
17:35:24 * oerjan swats alise -----###
17:35:26 <alise> until "condition (take N lst)" satisfies
17:35:30 <oerjan> _no_ explanation.
17:35:34 <alise> then returns that list
17:35:38 <oerjan> i want an example with actual _output_
17:35:43 <alise> oerjan: okay
17:36:14 <alise> takeWhileFoldl (+) 0 (< 10) [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10]
17:36:18 <alise> yields [1,2,3,4]
17:36:22 <oerjan> ok
17:36:24 <alise> because foldl (+) 0 [1,2,3,4] == 10
17:37:04 <oerjan> um don't you mean [1,2,3]
17:37:22 <oerjan> 10 is not < 10, after all
17:37:31 <alise> er, right
17:38:31 <alise> erm, what's the thing for "all but last element" again?
17:38:43 <oerjan> init
17:39:03 <alise> hmm, that doesn't actually help here
17:39:15 <alise> this is quite a subtle function, it involves sending information back across recursions
17:39:28 <oerjan> if you want to make that function actually _lazy_, then it's probably best to write it directly...
17:40:08 <alise> mm
17:40:51 <cpressey> mmmmmemoize
17:41:00 <alise> hmm, what do I need to get RandomGen?
17:41:05 <alise> didn't it use to be in prelude?
17:41:16 <oerjan> System.Random
17:41:24 <alise> thanks
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17:45:39 <oerjan> takeWhileFoldl op acc p (x:xs) | p acc = x : takeWhileFoldl op (acc `op` x) p xs; takeWhileFoldl _ _ _ _ = []
17:45:44 <cpressey> alise: btw, did you know that seq, much like the CAKE, is a LIE???!?
17:45:55 <alise> cpressey: In that it doesn't do deep sequencing?
17:45:58 <oerjan> oh wait no
17:46:10 <alise> oerjan: I obtained this:
17:46:12 <alise> takeWhileFoldl :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> (a -> Bool) -> [b] -> [b]
17:46:12 <alise> takeWhileFoldl f _ _ [] = []
17:46:13 <alise> takeWhileFoldl f z c (x:xs)
17:46:13 <alise> | c (f z x) = x : takeWhileFoldl f (f z x) c xs
17:46:13 <alise> | otherwise = []
17:46:50 <oerjan> yeah i forgot to use acc `op` x in the test
17:47:26 <oerjan> the first and last lines can still be combined like i did
17:48:43 <alise> grr, how do you show a Rational as a decimal again?
17:48:46 <cpressey> alise: seq is a lie in two ways: (1) in the absence of either of its arguments being "undefined", it's semantically a NOP. (2) even in practice, a Haskell implementation could evaluate its arguments in a different order, e.g. if it thought it that reduction ordering was more efficient
17:49:10 <cpressey> oerjan filled me in on this LIE yesterday :)
17:49:18 <oerjan> also giving f z x a name may help
17:49:22 <alise> (1) of course
17:49:25 <alise> (2) of course
17:51:16 <oerjan> alise: fromRational to get a Double? >:)
17:51:56 <alise> indeed ...
17:52:09 <alise> *Main> fmap fromRational (approxE 10000)
17:52:10 <alise> 1.723
17:52:11 <alise> that's not e.
17:54:25 <alise> in fact, it seems to be approximating e-1.
17:54:26 <alise> Or, not.
17:54:39 <oerjan> !haskell exp (-1)
17:54:41 <EgoBot> 0.36787944117144233
17:55:00 <cpressey> Also, I think I have to disagree with, or at least modify, the characterization of monads yesterday. They do *in practice* force an evaluation order, even if they do it *by* imposing an order on data flow. Maybe it's not true for some weird or trivial monads out there -- but those would be the exceptions.
17:55:19 <alise> cpressey: no, actually
17:55:20 <alise> a lot of useful monads are lazy
17:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, you know lists are monads, right?
17:55:22 <alise> list, for example
17:55:25 <alise> lazy state
17:55:31 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: no, lists aren't monads
17:55:32 <alise> [] is a monad
17:55:58 <cpressey> OK, then I still don't understand them. No surprise.
17:56:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Isn't >>= defined for lists?
17:56:40 <oerjan> cpressey: monads force an order of _effects_. even in IO, evaluation of pure values is not always forced.
17:57:11 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: >>= is defined for [] a.
17:57:15 <oerjan> !haskell do x <- return undefined; print "No evaluation of x here"
17:57:15 <cpressey> But if it *is* forced, it's going to happen in the order that the monad establishes. Right?
17:57:22 <alise> cpressey: maybe you'd have more luck reading the theoretical definition
17:57:26 <EgoBot> "No evaluation of x here"
17:57:28 <cpressey> alise: NO THANK YOU
17:57:33 <cpressey> Tried that
17:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, the theoretical definition says nothing about evaluation order.
17:58:56 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it doesn't say anything about evaluation
17:59:02 <alise> cpressey: Pfft. Philistine!
17:59:03 <alise> #
17:59:09 <alise> s/#/just delete the damn line/
17:59:09 <pikhq> cpressey: Only specific monads say anything at all about evaluation.
17:59:11 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, hence it says nothing about evaluation order.
17:59:53 <alise> It says nothing about turnips either.
18:00:02 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, exactly
18:00:02 <oerjan> !haskell do x <- return undefined; putStr "No evaluation of x here; "; putStr (show x); putStr " we never get to here though"
18:00:10 <EgoBot> No evaluation of x here; *** Exception: Prelude.undefined
18:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> But cpressey is not talking about turnip monads.
18:00:30 <Phantom_Hoover> !haskell [] >>= undefined
18:00:39 <EgoBot> []
18:00:49 <Phantom_Hoover> I find that very odd...
18:01:19 <Deewiant> !haskell concatMap undefined []
18:01:20 <EgoBot> []
18:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, makes sense now.
18:01:32 <pikhq> Well, [] >>= _ = []
18:01:37 <alise> = _ =
18:01:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the undefined function never gets any arguments passed, so never needs to be evaluated
18:01:46 <alise> It is not happy about appearing there.
18:01:56 <pikhq> (rather than, y'know, [] >>= x = x `seq` [] -- or some such)
18:02:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, got that, but I didn't know that undefined :: (b -> m a) worked.
18:02:27 <alise> Can ALSA function if PulseAudio is running?
18:02:31 <oerjan> :t undefined
18:02:36 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, yeah; undefined :: a
18:02:37 <oerjan> !haskell :t undefined
18:02:37 <alise> i.e., if I remove the bypass it has to PulseAudio, what will happen if I play audio to ALSA?
18:02:38 <EgoBot> undefined :: a
18:02:49 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, didn't realise that applied to functions as well. Do now.
18:02:57 <pikhq> Functions possess types.
18:03:00 <cpressey> What I don't understand is the use case for writing a monad which does not establish an order. What does a "lazy state" monad do, except save you from an explicit additional argument to your function? In that, using a monad is a lot like writing pointfree code (a practice with which I do not often agree.)
18:03:04 <pikhq> Hence, a includes functions.
18:03:38 <pikhq> cpressey: It saves you from an explicit additional argument to your set of functions.
18:03:48 <pikhq> That is the entire point of the State monad.
18:04:00 <alise> Riker: Hey baby, what's your sign?
18:04:03 <alise> Troi: You've known me for twelve years. Will, I know you care about me, but... well....
18:04:03 <alise> Riker: Well what?
18:04:03 <alise> Troi: It's your beard. It just isn't sufficient anymore.
18:04:03 <alise> Riker: WHAT?
18:04:03 <alise> Worf: In case you can't tell, Commander, I'm grinning. But it's hard to see that through my thick, thick beard.
18:04:12 <alise> cpressey: Some code utilising lazy State would be hideously ugly without it.
18:05:43 <cpressey> alise: Not really a compelling argument. How much of that is the 'do' sugar?
18:06:10 <alise> cpressey: Not much at all.
18:06:26 <alise> When you're just calling other functions that use that state and don't mutate it yourself, it helps a lot because you can completely elide it.
18:06:30 <pikhq> cpressey: The do sugar is really, really thin.
18:06:42 <alise> When you're mutating state inamongst other calls, it isolates this change, rather than making you e.g. pass state' instead of state around everywhere.
18:08:07 <pikhq> About the only thing that's even vaguely "thick" is that pattern matches get a "_ -> fail" case added...
18:08:07 <alise> <alise> Can ALSA function if PulseAudio is running?
18:08:08 <alise> <alise> i.e., if I remove the bypass it has to PulseAudio, what will happen if I play audio to ALSA?
18:08:10 <cpressey> alise: When not using monads, when you calling some other function that doesn't use that state, you just don't include that explicit argument.
18:08:11 <alise> Anyone know?
18:08:21 <alise> pikhq: Whoa, they do? I didn't realise.
18:08:25 <pikhq> alise: Yeah.
18:08:35 <alise> cpressey: That DO use state, I said.
18:08:54 <alise> pikhq: Now answer my ALSA question :P
18:08:55 <cpressey> Sorry, misread.
18:09:03 <pikhq> alise: If you have mixing enabled in ALSA, *yes*.
18:09:12 <pikhq> (either hardware mixing or dmix)
18:09:21 <alise> pikhq: Is it enabled by default if I have PulseAudio in a typical crapbuntu setup?
18:09:33 <pikhq> alise: Ubuntu should have dmix by default, yes.
18:09:41 <alise> Even if it's a PulseAudio stack?
18:09:45 <pikhq> Yes.
18:09:56 <pikhq> Actually, I think ALSA now just makes dmix on by default...
18:10:08 <alise> Okay, two new questions:
18:10:17 <alise> (1) How do I disable ALSA's redirection? I've forgotten what file it's in.
18:10:29 <alise> (2) What's the best/quickest/etc. ao/vo for mplayer?
18:10:37 <alise> -ao sdl seems pretty good, but what about -vo?
18:10:52 <alise> Using built-in Intel sound and video cards.
18:10:55 <pikhq> Dunno, -ao alsa or -ao oss or -ao sdl, and -vo gl or -vo xv
18:11:23 <alise> SDL must necessarily be worse than ALSA/OSS, yeah, because it outputs there?
18:11:48 <alise> I wonder with vo is default.
18:11:50 <alise> *which vo
18:12:06 <pikhq> Probably something like -vo x11
18:12:12 <pikhq> Or -vo xv or -vo gl
18:12:27 * pikhq goeth to shower
18:13:03 <alise> ISTR -vo gl being slow.
18:13:32 <fizzie> "-vo xv" is good if it works.
18:13:38 <fizzie> Hardware colorspace conversions and so on.
18:13:43 <fizzie> (And scaling.)
18:14:01 <alise> But for just straight playback? And could it possibly "work" without actually... working?
18:14:06 <alise> You know, emulating it somehow.
18:14:08 <alise> Uh, I'm tired.
18:14:41 <fizzie> I... guess it could, but I think usually if Xv is supported, it's supported mostly on hardware.
18:14:55 <alise> Well, it works; *should* it work, on this built-in Intel card?
18:15:06 <fizzie> Sure, sure. At least most likely.
18:15:38 <fizzie> On NVIDIA cards, there's the (old) xvmc and (new) vdpau stuff to move even the video stream decoding, and IDCT, and other such stuff, on hardware; but I have no idea how (and if) that's supported on Intel graphics and Linux.
18:16:03 <alise> Probably not.
18:16:21 <alise> These GPUs are... not the most powerful.
18:17:42 <alise> Okay; how do I make ALSA reload its config?
18:18:04 <fizzie> Also, I guess "xvinfo" will tell you mostly what the hardware supports, if you're curious.
18:18:23 <fizzie> And I was under the impression that all libalsa-using processes read the .asoundrc fluff on startup, and that's about it.
18:19:03 <alise> /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf.
18:19:06 <alise> More a server configuration file.
18:22:10 <alise> Can someone please tell me exactly ONE reason not to remove PulseAudio and just use ALSA+dmix?
18:22:48 <pikhq> Some idiot feels that adding a layer of abstraction for no benefit is a good idea.
18:23:04 <alise> Indeed.
18:23:26 <alise> I'm just shocked that so many people clamour to bundle this technology which does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR YOU, AT ALL into their distributions.
18:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover> What does PA actually /do/?
18:23:33 <alise> Even X11 does more.
18:23:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Takes audio in. Mixes it together. Sends it off to ALSA or some other device, which can already mix audio.
18:24:06 <alise> Okay, it can also do EQ and stuff on the audio. Which, you know, is totally unnecessary as everything that you'd want to EQ can already do EQ.
18:24:10 <alise> Apart from that?
18:24:16 <alise> Takes up RAM and disk.
18:24:23 <alise> Umm... that's it.
18:25:12 <alise> In fact, the role of PulseAudio in a typical Ubuntu user's life is akin to that of Ubuntu One's: annoying and pointless.
18:25:47 <alise> As such, I will hereby remove both.
18:26:12 <nooga> ubuntu is heavy
18:26:22 <alise> Good word.
18:27:33 <fizzie> It can also do things like networked audio, but your regular user won't have much use for that.
18:27:55 <alise> pikhq: Projects for an Insane Man And/Or Woman Who Inexplicably Wishes to Make Linux Slightly Better: (1) Develop an X11-compatible, accelerated graphics server that doesn't suck. (2) Develop an independent libX11 implementation exclusively for (1) that sucks... well, less. (Optionally libxcb, too, although nothing uses that.) (3) Develop a sound system that doesn't suck. Uh, you could just use OSSv4.
18:27:57 <Deewiant> It has a convenient interface for per-process volume controlling.
18:28:15 <alise> Deewiant: That's nice. If only it didn't make everything else suck.
18:28:33 <alise> Such as latency (really really really sucks for some hardware), not-having-a-bloated-piece-of-shit-running-ness, ...
18:28:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, is there anything you don't think sucks?
18:28:45 <Phantom_Hoover> It is getting *really* tiresome.
18:28:46 <Deewiant> It mixes my audio without causing sound quality problems like ALSA did by default (and I couldn't find a way to fix).
18:28:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yes. It's just not very interesting to talk about.
18:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, neither are things you think sucks.
18:29:07 <Phantom_Hoover> s/sucks/suck/
18:29:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You don't say things when I talk about things I like. Presumably because they don't annoy you, so you don't think to say anything.
18:29:31 <alise> I believe I speak of things that suck probably less than you think.
18:30:12 <alise> (Nor do you complain to other people who complain things suck, e.g. pikhq and cpressey, although their complaints usually happen after I make one.)
18:30:35 <alise> Anyway, I find /your/ complaints, about my complaints, annoying too.
18:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I find your complaints about my complaints about your complaints annoying.
18:32:05 <alise> Delightful.
18:32:54 <Phantom_Hoover> No, better. I have complaints about your complaints about my complaints about your complaints.
18:33:22 <alise> Now why do I lack asoundconf(1) ...
18:34:22 <alise> By default, asoundconf's configuration file is ~/.asoundrc.asoundconf
18:34:23 <alise> and must be included in ~/.asoundrc. Open this file to make sure it is!
18:34:23 <alise> What.
18:36:15 <alise> # Specify default video driver (see -vo help for a list).
18:36:16 <alise> # vo=xv,x11
18:36:18 <alise> Alright then.
18:37:31 -!- tombom_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:38:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: There was something I was going to say to you. I've been /wii'ing you a couple of times to see if you happened to be around.
18:39:16 <alise> Is wiiing an effective way of seeing whether Deewiant is around?
18:39:18 <Deewiant> I'm usually around, I just haven't said much on freenode recently
18:39:22 <alise> Does he appear in the wii? :|
18:40:51 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:41:12 <zzo38> I wrote a program it does not work with Windows named pipes, but it works with UNIX named pipes if it is compiled with Cygwin.
18:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, very good.
18:42:09 <zzo38> And I don't know how to develop an X11-compatible, accelerated graphics server that doesn't suck.
18:42:30 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, this is alise-suck, which is a nebulous concept.
18:43:23 <alise> I think Phantom_Hoover has some sort of automatic system whereby he automatically likes everything I dislike and automatically ignores anybody concurring with me.
18:43:56 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm not saying it doesn't suck, only that I'm not entirely sure how you define suckiness.
18:44:08 <alise> Alright then.
18:44:16 <alise> zzo38: It shouldn't suck by not sucking.
18:44:40 <zzo38> alise: That doesn't help, because I still don't know how to develop accelerated graphics server, anyways.
18:44:55 <alise> Gah, anyone know how to get the old ALSA mixer in the Ubuntu panel?
18:45:03 <alise> The new-fangled one only does Pulse.
18:45:07 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, you had "Work" and then "Going home" (or some-such) as away messages.
18:45:19 <fizzie> Deewiant: On the other hand, I have no longer any clue what it was I was going to say.
18:45:44 <Deewiant> It helps to just say it and wait, perhaps hours, for an answer
18:47:24 <alise> ALSA Gnome panel applet in Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic
18:47:25 <alise> yay
18:47:30 <alise> i386
18:47:31 <alise> nay
18:48:22 <alise> Whoa. I used the Pulse volume control and my GTK reverted to Raleigh.
18:48:24 <alise> How does that work?
18:48:32 <alise> Oh, because I removed the applet. Uh.
18:48:34 <alise> How does that work?
18:48:47 <alise> Aaand now it's back apart from X-Chat.
18:50:43 <alise> Does "aptitude download" apply patches?
18:50:53 <alise> Er, never mind.
18:53:49 <cpressey> fizzie: Is there some straightforward way to ask C for an integer type that's the same size as a machine pointer for the architecture? (would be nice for what i'm doing, but i can also live without it)
18:54:28 <alise> intptr_t
18:54:30 <alise> C99
18:54:47 <alise> it's at least as big as a pointer
18:54:56 <alise> #include <stdint.h>
18:55:00 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
18:55:04 <alise> uintptr_t is unsigned
18:55:25 <alise> hey what's the kosher way to build a debian package given its debian-patched source directory?
18:56:39 <zzo38> cpressey: Use sizeof() to check these things?
18:57:06 <zzo38> Like, sizeof(void*)==sizeof(int)?1:-5
18:57:09 <cpressey> zzo38: that was my backup plan.
18:57:30 <fizzie> There's that intptr_t, yes, though I think it's optionallish. Of course everyone with sensible pointers (and a big enough integer type) does provide it, since it's so easy.
18:57:42 <cpressey> if C89, might have to resort to that.
18:57:47 <zzo38> struct _check_sizes { int z[sizeof(void*)==sizeof(int)?1:-5]; };
18:58:20 <fizzie> Compile-time asserts like that are always so awesome.
18:58:49 <cpressey> will that actually be evaluated at compile time?
18:59:02 <zzo38> cpressey: Yes it will be evaluated at compile tile
18:59:06 <zzo38> s/tile/time/
19:00:03 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:00:10 <alise> cpressey: I'd just use intptr_t.
19:00:13 <alise> Everything supports it. More or less.
19:00:25 <alise> 0% [1 libart-2.0-dev 9506/75.8kB 12%]
19:00:36 <alise> It was going at some three thousand bytes per second.
19:00:37 <alise> Peculiar.
19:01:02 <oerjan> tile-based compilation
19:02:51 <alise> pikhq: Okay, my video is lagging. Or my audio. Severely. alsa/xv. mplayer. What. Why.
19:03:00 <cpressey> I'll probably go with defaulting to intptr_t, but making it configurable in the code gen.
19:03:05 <alise> Not an uber-high-quality file, either.
19:03:32 <cpressey> And asserting that it can hold an int and a ptr in the generated source
19:04:05 <zzo38> cpressey: What are you making now?
19:04:05 <alise> Movie-Aspect is 1.30:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect. --mplayer
19:04:07 <alise> Hmm.
19:04:57 <cpressey> zzo38: O - this is for Eightebed. A "safe" language without GC. because Gregor said it couldn't be done :)
19:05:15 <cpressey> (I'm oversimplifying of course)
19:05:19 * Gregor-P yawns.
19:05:33 * Gregor-P heckles.
19:05:40 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
19:06:07 <alise> The following packages are BROKEN:
19:06:10 <alise> ubuntu-desktop
19:06:10 <alise> The following NEW packages will be installed:
19:06:10 <alise> libsdl1.2debian-alsa
19:06:10 <alise> The following packages will be REMOVED:
19:06:10 <alise> libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio{a}
19:06:11 <alise> BROKEN!
19:06:13 <alise> I am violating the Holy Creed.
19:06:20 <alise> Die, Pulseau
19:06:26 <alise> *Die, PulseAudio! Die!
19:06:56 <ais523> hmm, it's a strong dependency, not a recommendation?
19:06:59 <alise> 99.99%, yet it refuses to believe the torrent is completed.
19:07:02 <alise> 45 seconds at ... heh, this is fun.
19:07:04 <alise> ais523: yes
19:07:07 <alise> ais523: all of ubuntu-desktop is
19:07:13 <alise> ubuntu-desktop does nothing, of course
19:07:16 <ais523> used to be, but I thought they changed it
19:07:23 <alise> except install more useless crap ubuntu adds each upgrade
19:08:28 <zzo38> Write a different distribution if you don't like it...... (I don't particularly like Ubuntu either)
19:12:41 <alise> zzo38: Yeah, uh, not that easy.
19:12:46 <alise> It's easier to complain.
19:12:52 <alise> pikhq: Could that rescaling be slowing down mplayer?
19:13:21 <zzo38> Yes it is easier to complain probably, but one day if I get new computer, I like to write Linux distribution, too (I must have told you that before?).
19:14:40 <alise> Yeah, a few times.
19:17:42 -!- calamari has joined.
19:17:52 <calamari> hi
19:17:57 <Gregor-P> What this world needs is more distributions with near-0 userbases.
19:18:04 <Gregor-P> Also HI
19:18:59 <oerjan> Nullix, the POSIX compatible OS with _no_ users. also, no copies.
19:21:59 <alise> http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061122013747/memoryalpha/en/images/0/0c/KIRK_IS_A_JERK.jpg
19:22:40 <zzo38> I write Linux distribution because I want to do so, in order to make it improvment in the way that is in my opinion. And then maybe some other people can use or maybe not
19:24:29 <alise> debian/rules:18: /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/patchsys-quilt.mk: No such file or directory
19:24:29 <alise> /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/gnome-get-source.mk:31: warning: overriding commands for target `get-orig-source'
19:24:30 <alise> /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/gnome-get-source.mk:31: warning: ignoring old commands for target `get-orig-source'
19:24:30 <alise> make: *** No rule to make target `/usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/patchsys-quilt.mk'. Stop.
19:24:30 <alise> dpkg-buildpackage: error: fakeroot debian/rules clean gave error exit status 2
19:24:32 <alise> What ...
19:24:35 <calamari> Gregor, can't remember whether I asked.. did you root your phone?
19:24:46 <Gregor-P> Yeah
19:24:58 <calamari> Gregor, got debian working without a chroot, it was very easy, dunno what my problem was before
19:25:13 <calamari> err dpkg/apt
19:25:21 <Gregor-P> Schweet
19:25:43 <Gregor-P> Put that shtuff on the Market! 8-D
19:25:46 <zzo38> Window manager shall include taskbar with clock, tiling and floating windows, background can be solid color or background picture (the background picture must be non-animated and the same size as the screen, because stretch is not available), and not much else other than many keyboard functions and mouse chording to manipulate windows and signals. (The taskbar needs only the list of windows open and the time, nothing else)
19:25:52 <calamari> so that should make it easier for me to finish the egobf package, since I don't have to deal with bionic now
19:26:07 <calamari> Gregor, not going to pay $25 for that, sorry!
19:26:23 <calamari> which phone do you have?
19:26:24 <zzo38> And if you have multiple screens, you can change the taskbar color and background color on each one
19:26:51 <Gregor-P> calamari: How about I pay, host the archive, and get all the credit? :P
19:26:59 <Gregor-P> calamari: How about I pay, host the archive, and get all the credit? :P
19:27:02 <Gregor-P> Errr
19:27:03 <calamari> go for it
19:27:10 <Gregor-P> calamari: Samsung Moment
19:27:20 <alise> Erm
19:27:28 <calamari> cool that's what a friend of mine just got too
19:27:29 <alise> Why can't calamari just publish an .ipkg? Or whatever they are.
19:27:30 <alise> .ipk.
19:27:34 <calamari> apk
19:27:46 <Gregor-P> Certainly he can.
19:27:52 <calamari> I could
19:28:22 <Gregor-P> Putting it on the Market is just a convenience.
19:28:37 <calamari> lol.. a package that is a glorified shell script
19:29:02 <calamari> Gregor, what's in your $PATH?
19:29:35 <Gregor-P> calamari: A distinct inability to paste into IRC ;)
19:29:37 <calamari> I have been running cyanogenmod so long I have lost touch with the real world
19:29:49 <calamari> Gregor, AndChat ftw
19:30:08 <Gregor-P> AndChat ftf
19:30:28 <calamari> okay i gotta try this out
19:30:37 <calamari> could swear I pasted in it before
19:31:24 -!- calamari- has joined.
19:32:15 -!- iamcal has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
19:33:51 <calamari-> bash-4.1# echo $PATH
19:34:10 <calamari> hrmm very strange
19:34:17 <calamari> oh.. right.. slashes in irc are bad
19:34:46 <calamari-> ...... /usr/bin:/usr/sbin:/bin:/sbin:/system/sbin:/system/bin:/system/xbin:/system/xbin
19:35:08 <Phantom_Hoover> calamari, /say or just /.
19:35:28 <calamari> what?
19:35:39 <Phantom_Hoover> /see?
19:35:45 <alise> "//foo" sends "/foo".
19:35:50 <alise> "/say /foo" sends "/foo".
19:35:51 <calamari> alise, thanks
19:35:51 <Phantom_Hoover> /foo
19:36:19 <alise> Gregor-P: I'm selectively installing old versions of some Debian (well, Ubuntu) packages, then installing a patched version of an old package that depends on them.
19:36:22 <alise> This includes important GNOME libraries.
19:36:26 <alise> Am I insane, or doubly insane?
19:36:34 <calamari-> apparently not in andchat
19:36:36 <alise> Also, the final outcome of this insanity is ... a sound mixer.
19:36:49 <Phantom_Hoover> calamari, /say?
19:37:16 <calamari> say isn't a valid command for me
19:37:26 <alise> "//" might still work, though. Unless you tried that too.
19:37:37 <calamari> that's okay.. the leading dot worked
19:37:43 <calamari> leading spaces didn't
19:37:51 <Gregor-P> alise: Neither, I've done that before, usually works.
19:38:06 <calamari> Gregor, anyhow.. do you have /datalocal/bin in your PATH?
19:38:13 <alise> Gregor-P: I'm pretty sure this is /downgrading some parts of GNOME to a lower release of GNOME/, though.
19:38:13 <calamari> /data/local/bin
19:38:15 <alise> Actual *libraries*.
19:38:17 <alise> So I'm insane.
19:39:01 <Gregor-P> calamari: No.
19:39:03 <alise> Wow, pidgin sounds work now.
19:39:14 <alise> This is not a good thing. :P
19:39:19 <calamari> must be cyanogenmod then
19:40:12 <calamari> that's okay.. is /data mounted rw?
19:41:10 <fizzie> / /foo works on some clients too.
19:41:31 <fizzie> (But, again, probably not in that one.)
19:42:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe is a monad, isn't it?
19:43:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep...
19:45:02 <pikhq> Very simple monad, too.
19:45:13 <pikhq> Only one simpler is Identity.
19:45:18 <pikhq> (Maybe without Nothing)
19:45:40 <Phantom_Hoover> What is that actually /for/?
19:45:48 <pikhq> Maybe?
19:46:07 <pikhq> Simple failure handling.
19:46:16 <Phantom_Hoover> No, Identity.
19:46:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Of course I know what Maybe is for.
19:46:33 <pikhq> *Mostly* demonstrating a simple monad.
19:47:07 <pikhq> It could also hypothetically be the bottom part of a transformer stack if for some reason you wanted a monad as the bottom that doesn't have a non-transformer version.
19:47:33 <Phantom_Hoover> We must tell cpressey...
19:47:57 <pikhq> I imagine monad transformers break his brain.
19:48:10 <calamari-> /
19:48:15 <calamari-> /
19:48:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know what they are either...
19:48:32 <calamari-> hmm space does work, not sure why it didn't before
19:48:35 <Gregor-P> calamari: Yes, and you need to highlight me to get my attention :P
19:48:38 <pikhq> It's a type constructor which takes a monad and results in a monad.
19:49:05 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, well, that makes sense.
19:49:09 <pikhq> For instance, ContT is a monad transformer. ContT IO is a monad.
19:49:09 -!- calamari- has quit (Quit: Bye).
19:49:53 <pikhq> And StateT Cont is a time-travel monad.
19:50:12 <pikhq> (note: these are not exactly simple examples, except for demonstrating how one gets a monad out of monad transformers. :P)
19:50:14 <Phantom_Hoover> In what sense?
19:50:38 <alise> Okay ... new volume control has unbelievably ugly icon.
19:51:25 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: With StateT Cont, the state in the StateT is *part* of the continuation. So, every time you use a continuation, you end up using the state in that continuation.
19:51:44 <pikhq> In effect, you are jumping forward and backwards in the computation when you use a continuation in StateT Cont.
19:53:37 <pikhq> (well, it's StateT s (Cont y), but that's just because, y'know, monads actually have values "in" them. :P)
20:00:07 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:04:08 <alise> Does anyone know the unending horror that is GNOME?
20:06:07 -!- kar8nga has joined.
20:08:08 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, as in, understand?
20:08:19 <alise> No, just ... be able to tell me how to replace a panel's icons.
20:08:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Find the file it uses and change it?
20:08:42 <alise> Yes. The first bit is the bit I require assistance with.
20:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> /usr/share/pixmaps or /usr/share/icons might be a place to start.
20:09:41 <alise> I know /that/ much.
20:09:50 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-muted-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-muted-blocking-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-low-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-medium-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-high-panel.svg
20:09:51 <alise> ./ubuntu-mono-light/status/22/audio-volume-low-zero-panel.svg
20:09:53 <alise> etc
20:09:55 <alise> are the ones I need to replace.
20:09:58 <alise> I just need to find what I need to replcae the,.
20:10:34 <alise> No, wait.
20:10:36 <alise> Those are correct.
20:16:48 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l -- now if this works on first try...
20:16:58 <EgoBot> [9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1,0]
20:17:01 <oerjan> wow
20:17:35 <oerjan> except - those _shouldn't_ have been changing values D:
20:19:36 <oerjan> hm...
20:20:27 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- lift callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l
20:21:18 <oerjan> argh
20:22:00 <zzo38> Have you seen a chess puzzle game where you have to mate in infinity plus fifteen?
20:22:28 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad.State; import Control.Monad.Cont; newtype Wrap x y = Wrap (x (Wrap x y) -> y); main = print . flip runCont id . flip evalStateT 0 $ do (l, Wrap cont) <- lift $ callCC (\cont -> return ([], Wrap cont)); s <- get; put (s+1); if length l < 10 then lift $ cont (s:l, Wrap cont) else return l
20:22:30 <EgoBot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0]
20:22:33 <oerjan> hah!
20:23:05 <alise> WHAT THE FUCKKK
20:23:44 <oerjan> pikhq: apparently the callCC method for StateT Cont is defined in such a way that it preserves the state too. if i use an explicit lifted callCC from the underlying Cont monad instead, _then_ the state time-travels.
20:24:14 <ais523> oerjan: StateT stores the state /outside/ the other monad, doesn't it?
20:24:23 <ais523> just like StateT Parser doesn't backtrack the state
20:24:27 <ais523> that's why Parsec needs its own state
20:24:38 <alise> ais523: you should fix my computer
20:24:49 <ais523> alise: how is it broken?
20:25:23 <alise> ais523: inexplicably, no matter how many times I replace icons, my (installed from older version of gnome) mixer applet doesn't acknowledge these new icons
20:25:32 <oerjan> ais523: um i didn't think Parsec _needed_ its own user state, it was just convenient to include it with the rest it has to track...
20:25:32 <alise> and I cannot figure out why; perhaps it is requesting specifically .png, not .svg, but I doubt that
20:25:59 <ais523> alise: the obvious conclusion is that Ubuntu has caught the recent icon vulnerability from Windows
20:26:11 <ais523> also, where are you replacing the icons?
20:26:18 <oerjan> ais523: and _no_ state transformer can do anything "outside" the transformed monad
20:26:20 <alise> ais523: /usr/share/icons; I've tried Humanity, Humanity-Dark, ubuntu-mono-dark
20:26:21 <alise> none work
20:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, what vulnerability?
20:26:36 -!- Sgeo has left (?).
20:26:51 -!- Sgeo has joined.
20:27:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: there was a hugely exploited vulnerability that was a bug in icon processing
20:27:08 <ais523> although it was exploited indirectly via .pif and .lnk files
20:27:14 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, why would Ubuntu have it?
20:27:16 <ais523> Microsoft issued an out-of-band patch on Monday
20:27:19 <ais523> and it wouldn't, I was joking
20:27:51 <pikhq> oerjan: Still the timetravel monad. :)
20:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Why do these things tend to happen to Windows?
20:28:41 <oerjan> *no monad transformer
20:28:50 <zzo38> Windows is badly designed
20:30:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I've heard that constantly, but why?
20:31:58 <oerjan> instance (MonadCont m) => MonadCont (StateT s m) where callCC f = StateT $ \s -> callCC $ \c -> runStateT (f (\a -> StateT $ \s' -> c (a, s'))) s
20:32:58 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: I don't know. Maybe because they are bad programmers and not opensource
20:33:33 <pikhq> Windows is horribly designed, and they don't update their BSD libraries that often.
20:33:42 <oerjan> it explicitly includes the StateT state in what's passed to the "underlying" continuation from the lower monad
20:34:13 <pikhq> oerjan: Soley to reduce the confusion caused by time travel, I'm sure.
20:34:18 <oerjan> yeah
20:35:21 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
20:37:09 <alise> how do you give the -vo driver options?
20:37:57 <pikhq> -vo driver:options:seperated:by:colons
20:38:33 <pikhq> BTW, -vo drivers,seperated,by,commas,listed,in,order,of,preference
20:39:11 <alise> Hey, libcaca plays the video at full speed just fine.
20:39:13 <alise> There's a solution.
20:39:20 <alise> I'll just get used to watching videos with libcaca.
20:39:47 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:40:01 <alise> Movie-Aspect is 1.30:1 - prescaling to correct movie aspect.
20:40:06 <alise> I'm *sure* that's what's slowing it down!
20:40:18 <alise> How can I disable scaling?
20:40:55 <alise> Ah, -noaspect.
20:40:59 <alise> Nope, still lagged.
20:41:09 <alise> pikhq: Okay, what?
20:41:16 <alise> WHY does Linux suck at AV so much?
20:41:42 * alise tries VLC in case mplayer is being stupid.
20:41:47 <pikhq> alise: What's the full mplayer command line?
20:42:15 <alise> pikhq: Anything! -ao sdl, -ao alsa, -vo xv, -vo sdl, -vo xv:somethingaboutcolorkeysorsomethingthatchangednothing
20:42:30 <pikhq> ...
20:42:34 <pikhq> Try -vo x11
20:42:45 <alise> I am sceptical that that will be quicker, but I will try.
20:42:47 <pikhq> If that works, your video card officially Sucks Ass.
20:42:55 <alise> Intel video doesn't suck that much.
20:43:08 <alise> It handles Compiz and all that jazz just fine, better than any other card on Linux due to its "open-sourceness".
20:43:26 <alise> $ mplayer -ao sdl -vo x11 "7.25 All Good Things….mkv"
20:43:27 <alise> Grumble...
20:43:32 <pikhq> ... Wait, you're running Compiz?
20:43:38 <alise> pikhq: -vo x11 is even worse.
20:43:42 <pikhq> Compiz hates video.
20:43:44 <alise> Yes. Won't the compositing /help/?
20:43:47 <pikhq> Hateshateshates.
20:44:01 <pikhq> If it were implemented well, perhaps. Compiz hateshateshates video.
20:44:11 <alise> I switched to Compiz without compositing.
20:44:27 <alise> Either my perception of mouths is broken, or it still doesn't help.
20:44:31 <alise> I'll enable Metacity compositing?
20:44:35 <alise> Is there a way to bypass the WM somehow?
20:44:49 <pikhq> Hmm. Without compositing it shouldn't matter at all.
20:45:00 <alise> Except that Metacity will be drawing shit itself?
20:45:16 <alise> Under X, how video is finally drawn depends largely on the X window manager in use. With properly installed drivers, and GPU hardware such as supported Intel, ATI, and nVidia chip sets, some window managers, called compositing window managers allow windows to be separately processed and then rendered (or composited). This involves all windows being rendered to separate output buffers in memory first, and later combined to form a complete graphical interfac
20:45:16 <alise> e. While in (video) memory, individual windows can be transformed separately, and accelerated video may be added at this stage using a texture filter, before the window is composited and drawn. XVideo can also be used to accelerate video playback during the drawing of windows using an OpenGL Framebuffer Object or pbuffer.
20:45:17 <alise> Metacity, an X window manager uses compositing in this way. The compositing can also make use of 3D pipelines accelerations such as GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap. Among other things, this process allows many video outputs to share the same screen without interfering with each other. Other compositing window managers such as Compiz also use compositing.
20:45:54 <alise> pikhq: I suggest that THIS SHIT SUCKS and what drivers might work well without X11?
20:46:00 <alise> Will fbdev be fast enough?
20:47:26 <alise> pikhq: Gah; can I have a test file to test A/V sync?
20:47:36 <alise> Like one that starts playing audio as soon as the screen turns from black to white?
20:47:41 <alise> Do you know of one?
20:48:40 <alise> pikhq: Apparently you need compositing for Xv to work properly?
20:49:37 <alise> Ξ Windows would so fix this.
20:52:05 <coppro> "Other compositing window managers such as Compiz also use compositing" thanks guys
20:52:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Why the xi?
20:52:08 <pikhq> alise: ... No, don't really need compositing for that.
20:52:16 * Phantom_Hoover rhymes
20:52:25 <pikhq> Well, it's "compositing", but it's absurdly naive 2D compositing.
20:52:30 <alise> pikhq: Okay. Now make it work. :|
20:52:33 <pikhq> And a decade and a half old.
20:52:38 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I gotta name it /some/ Greek letter!
20:52:44 <pikhq> fbdev is actually very fast.
20:52:48 <alise> pikhq: My CPU is 1.33 GHz but it can _definitely_ decode this video.
20:52:52 <alise> pikhq: Yeah, but fbdev is still desynch'ed.
20:52:54 <alise> I suspect audio is the problem.
20:52:58 <alise> As Linux audio SUCKS.
20:53:12 <alise> I could just install OSSv4 but that sucks to do on Ubuntu.
20:53:13 <pikhq> ... Desync'd? That's definitely the audio layer's fault.
20:53:26 <pikhq> Mplayer is ridiculously good at AV sync.
20:53:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Why are you discussing compositing WMs?
20:53:50 <pikhq> My God, man. I have never had problems with mplayer on Gentoo.
20:54:00 <pikhq> It just works on fucking *Gentoo*!
20:54:13 <alise> pikhq: Well, I only /just/ lobotomised Ubuntu by removing PulseAudio.
20:54:22 <alise> It came out with a higher IQ, but god knows how ALSA is configured.
20:54:23 <ais523> my current only problems with audio are that sometimes after logging on it doesn't work
20:54:27 <ais523> but it does if I log out and back in again
20:54:48 <pikhq> And of course, Gentoo's handling of things like audio involves using the default settings for ALSA.
20:54:56 <pikhq> (which just works)
20:55:10 <alise> Apart from being ALSA.
20:55:22 <pikhq> I have never had problems with it.
20:55:29 <pikhq> Well, apart from the API sucking.
20:55:33 <alise> Right, how about I just install OSSv4 and meditate.
20:55:43 <pikhq> Worth a shot.
20:55:44 <alise> Low latency, high quality, high sanity.
20:55:52 <alise> pikhq: The /last/ time I did this I Broke Everything and installed Arch.
20:56:12 * alise notes http://insanecoding.blogspot.com/2009/05/perfect-sound-with-oss-version-4.html
20:57:06 <alise> I don't know if OSSv4 supports my card.
20:57:23 <alise> Intel High Definition Audio (Azalia) *BETA*
20:57:26 <alise> Well, that is reassuring.
20:59:25 <cheater99> ALISE
20:59:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Are there actually any contexts in which one would use monady things on lists?
20:59:40 <cheater99> i am fairly sure i have today met the mother of my children
21:00:06 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: yes
21:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> What like?
21:00:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: stuff
21:00:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Helpful.
21:01:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it's ... uh, it's like prolog without cut and stuff
21:01:26 * Phantom_Hoover has forgotten what cut does
21:01:56 <ais523> alise: list monads feel more like multithreading than backtracking
21:02:37 <alise> ais523: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; guard (a+b > 6)
21:02:53 <alise> er, that doesn't quite work
21:02:56 <alise> ais523: do a <- [1,2,3]; b <- [4,5,6]; guard (a+b > 6); return (a,b)
21:04:32 <Phantom_Hoover> What does guard do?
21:04:45 <ais523> presumably monad-fails if the condition is false
21:05:35 <alise> yes
21:07:34 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (const [False,True]) ['a'..'e']
21:07:37 <EgoBot> ["","e","d","de","c","ce","cd","cde","b","be","bd","bde","bc","bce","bcd","bcde","a","ae","ad","ade","ac","ace","acd","acde","ab","abe","abd","abde","abc","abce","abcd","abcde"]
21:08:18 <ais523> what does filterM do?
21:08:45 <oerjan> it filters a list, in a monad ;D
21:08:55 -!- tombom_ has joined.
21:10:39 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (\x -> [x <= 5, x >= 3]) [0..7]
21:10:57 <oerjan> hm...
21:11:17 <oerjan> !haskell "Boo!"
21:11:32 <EgoBot> [[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5],[0,1,2,3,4,5,7],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6],[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7],[0,1,2,
21:11:41 <ais523> oerjan: looks like it worked, just was slow
21:11:56 <ais523> did EgoBot just DCC you a wall of text?
21:12:13 <oerjan> _maybe_. iirc there's sometimes a bug that makes the output only happen on the _next_ command.
21:12:16 <oerjan> and no.
21:13:46 <oerjan> oh...
21:14:05 * oerjan misjudged the length of that list
21:14:05 <alise> pikhq: Greek Audio: You ask for a certain number of Hzes and bits. You send raw audio data over the channel. The end.
21:14:31 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; main = print $ filterM (\x -> [x <= 3, x >= 3]) [0..4]
21:14:34 <EgoBot> [[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,2,3],[0,1,2,3,4],[0,1,3],[0,1,3,4],[0,1,3],[0,1,3,4],[0,2,3],[0,2,3,4],[0,2,3],[0,2,3,4],[0,3],[0,3,4],[0,3],[0,3,4],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,4],[1,3],[1,3,4],[1,3],[1,3,4],[2,3],[2,3,4],[2,3],[2,3,4],[3],[3,4],[3],[3,4]]
21:16:45 * oerjan isn't sure he understands that one himself
21:22:35 <alise> "There had been a lot of very bad feeling around here about the way Tasha Yar was sent off. So we were determined to give Wesley a send-off that had real value and something that stayed with us. We finally decided that he would go to the Academy, which I think was Gene's idea [and] the most reasonable and easiest idea, which also keeps him alive for future episodes."
21:22:42 <alise> You know, everyone would have preferred you killed Wesley horribly.
21:23:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:24:23 <coppro> yeah
21:24:27 <coppro> yar was ok
21:27:08 <alise> is there any notable sci-fi that has large space ships be portrayed as political countries, rather than by analogy with sea-based vessels?
21:27:20 <alise> i've actually not seen it, unless i'm misremembering - which i tend to do when this tired
21:28:28 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; import Control.Monad.State; isubs l = flip evalStateT (head l) . filterM (\x -> do prev <- get; if prev > x then return False else join $ lift [return False, do put x; return True]) l; main = print $ isubs [1,3,4,2,3,5]
21:28:29 <alise> the ships would have to be pretty large mind
21:30:25 <oerjan> oh
21:30:37 <oerjan> !haskell import Control.Monad; import Control.Monad.State; isubs l = flip evalStateT (head l) $ filterM (\x -> do prev <- get; if prev > x then return False else join $ lift [return False, do put x; return True]) l; main = print $ isubs [1,3,4,2,3,5]
21:30:40 <EgoBot> [[],[5],[3],[3,5],[2],[2,5],[2,3],[2,3,5],[4],[4,5],[3],[3,5],[3,3],[3,3,5],[3,4],[3,4,5],[1],[1,5],[1,3],[1,3,5],[1,2],[1,2,5],[1,2,3],[1,2,3,5],[1,4],[1,4,5],[1,3],[1,3,5],[1,3,3],[1,3,3,5],[1,3,4],[1,3,4,5]]
21:30:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:36:38 <pikhq> alise: Probably only sci-fi with sleeper ships.
21:37:12 <pikhq> When travel to port is going to take livable amounts of time, analogy with sea-based vessels kinda makes sense.
21:37:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the Culture, to a degree.
21:38:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Inasmuch as the Culture has individual political units.
21:38:39 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah; something a little less abstract would be cool.
21:39:02 <alise> pikhq: Well, generation ships would probably be like countries.
21:39:24 <alise> At least, the thing I have filed for Would Be a Good Sci-Fi Show About a Generation Space Ship has it like that.
21:39:33 <alise> If only I could write.
21:39:35 <pikhq> alise: Ah, yes. Sleeper or generation ships are going to inherently be like countries.
21:39:53 <pikhq> Well, sleeper ships are more like *going to be* countries, but still.
21:40:09 * Phantom_Hoover tries to remember if the Algebraist had anything similar.
21:40:13 <alise> Still, what about long-mission ships that can still travel large distances, but with a large number of crewmembers? I guess without a defined, "short-term" mission they don't exist.
21:40:39 <alise> pikhq: I don't see how sleeper ships would be like that.
21:40:44 <alise> They barely have any people.
21:40:49 <alise> (Conscious, that is.)
21:41:01 <pikhq> alise: The unconscious crews shall found a colony or some such.
21:41:12 <pikhq> Either that or they'll be back in 100 years, making it more naval.
21:41:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, in hard SF generation ships would probably rarely interact.
21:41:35 <alise> And?
21:41:41 <pikhq> (well, "like" 100 years. Long time-span, but the point being that it's returning and the country may well exist in the end)
21:41:48 <alise> Politics exist even in a vacuum. Uh, or something.
21:41:59 <alise> pikhq: The unconscious crews won't do anything until they're off the ship.
21:42:05 <pikhq> Mmm, yeah. True.
21:42:08 <alise> At which point nothing they do changes how the ship is politically structured.
21:42:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, why would it be portrayed as a country?
21:42:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Because when you have thousands and thousands of personnel on board, you're going to have an awful lot of opinions, and probably quite a bit of crime.
21:42:46 <alise> Especially so on e.g. a generation starship, when people aren't specially selected -- not after the first generation, anyway.
21:42:53 <alise> *where people aren't
21:43:06 <pikhq> Another thought: why do so many sci-fi settings seem to try and have all the various settled planets under a single legal framework, regardless of speed of transit between them?
21:43:08 <Phantom_Hoover> That means that anything with generation ships counts, then.
21:43:14 <pikhq> I'm looking at *you*, Enderverse.
21:43:22 <ais523> pikhq: normally as a result of conflict
21:43:48 <ais523> in Asimov's Foundation series, for instance, everywhere starts under a single political system and legal framework
21:43:49 <cheater99> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQp5l4-sfFA
21:43:50 <cheater99> !!!
21:43:53 <ais523> and it all falls apart as the series goes on
21:43:54 <cheater99> everyone watch
21:44:07 <pikhq> (gah, slow-ass ships being the only means of transit, but a central government? I don't even know how that works *with* the ansible, much less without.)
21:44:23 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, settlement is an extremely complex business, so it would make sense that only one organisation would be able to do it in any significant amount.
21:44:37 <ais523> doesn't make sense that everyone would stay bound to that org forever
21:44:40 <Phantom_Hoover> (Assuming superluminal movement.)
21:44:40 <ais523> unless it was /really/ scary
21:44:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, I suppose.
21:44:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And how do you maintain political bonds when it's subliminal movement?
21:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, you don't. Does the Enderverse do that?
21:45:11 <ais523> pikhq: are you assuming liminal communication as well as subliminal movement?
21:45:15 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Yes.
21:45:21 * Phantom_Hoover shudders
21:45:45 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, superluminal movement does get invented several centuries in.
21:46:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Also, it has instantaneous communication.
21:46:09 <alise> pikhq: Notably, Orson Scott Card isn't a very good writer.
21:46:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Tau Zero was fairly good about the whole "governance in a closed environment" thing.
21:46:27 <alise> (...also a homophobe)
21:46:35 <Phantom_Hoover> OTOH there were only around 50 people on the Leonora.
21:46:40 <pikhq> alise: I *like* his writing when it's not got anything to do with his religion.
21:46:55 <pikhq> It gets vomit-inducing when his religion is at all involved.
21:48:07 * Phantom_Hoover has never read any of OSC's stuff
21:48:13 <Phantom_Hoover> a
21:48:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, did you read the Culture series?
21:48:29 <alise> No. But I will.
21:48:34 <alise> I still need to figure out the chronology :^)
21:48:38 <alise> I had it written down, somewhere!
21:48:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I've read Inversions and LTW in the meantime.
21:49:01 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: He's a decent sci-fi author, but also a literal, honest-to-god fascist.
21:49:19 <pikhq> A Mormon fascist.
21:49:35 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, LTW is definitely after Excession, and contains spoilers, but I don't think that affects thing.
21:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> s/thing/things/
21:50:16 <alise> It's The State of the Art that matters most to me. The main story in it was published /before/ another novel, separately, though I forget which.
21:51:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, TSOTA is before UOW, so read them consecutively.
21:52:13 <alise> 1989; TSOTA was published 1989.
21:52:33 <alise> Player of Games comes after Consider Phlebas?
21:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:53:09 <Phantom_Hoover> There's a long-running dispute over which you should read first. I read CP first, and it didn't do me any harm.
21:53:20 <alise> Yeah, we talked about that.
21:53:35 <alise> I think I want absolute chronological order; equivalently, avoiding spoilers.
21:53:49 <alise> I can make the commitment to read past Consider Phlebas beforehand, so it can't possibly turn me off the series.
21:54:21 <Phantom_Hoover> There are about 2 explicit spoilers I've ever encountered, excepting the outcome of the Idiran War, which hardly counts.
21:54:21 <alise> Which are the ones in TSOTA that are set in the culture?
21:54:26 <alise> A Gift from the Culture, Descendant?
21:54:34 <Phantom_Hoover> And TSOTA.
21:54:39 <alise> Yes.
21:54:47 <alise> # "A Gift from the Culture" - originally published in Interzone #20, Summer 1987 with illustrations by SMS.
21:54:47 <alise> # "Descendant" - originally published in the anthology Tales from the Forbidden Planet, Roz Kaveney (ed.) 1987, Titan Books, ISBN 1-85286-004-9.
21:54:53 <alise> Awesome, 1987, a chronological hint.
21:55:04 <alise> So those two should be read before The State of the Art.
21:55:11 <Phantom_Hoover> AGFTC is impossible to place within the internal chronology, BtW.
21:55:48 <alise> And Descendant after Gift, because Descendant was published October, while Gift was "Summer".
21:55:58 <alise> I should find Interzone #20's publication date.
21:56:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but publication order is a secondary measure.
21:56:23 <alise> Consider Phlebas
21:56:23 <alise> The Player of Games
21:56:23 <alise> A Gift from the Culture
21:56:23 <alise> Descendant
21:56:23 <alise> The State of the Art [novella]
21:56:24 <alise> Use of Weapons
21:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I'm pretty sure Descendant is chronologically before Gift.
21:56:25 <alise> Excession
21:56:27 <alise> Inversions
21:56:29 <alise> Look to Windward
21:56:31 <alise> Matter
21:56:33 <alise> Is this about right?
21:56:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Oh?
21:56:37 <alise> I thought you said it was impossible.
21:56:42 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, probably.
21:56:55 <alise> How can you tell? I don't mind minor spoilers; they're only short stories.
21:57:06 <Phantom_Hoover> They probably aren't around the same time, because then Gift would have mentioned the Idiran War.
21:57:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Gift could be before, I suppose...
21:57:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, Gift can go whereever.
21:58:26 <alise> Well, what's your personal hunch?
21:58:31 <alise> Gift is before Idiran War? After?
21:58:36 <alise> That would be a start. (I am anal about this stuff.)
21:58:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Probably after, since everything else is.
21:59:19 <alise> Much after, then, if you consider its not mentioning the Idiran War a hint?
21:59:31 <alise> As an aside -- is Descendant set before The Player of Games, then?
21:59:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes.
21:59:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, assuming it's set during the Idiran War, which seems pretty reasonable.
22:00:20 <alise> So I'll be reading a short story before my first "proper" (non-Phlebas) novel. How quaint.
22:00:28 <alise> Consider Phlebas
22:00:29 <alise> Descendant
22:00:29 <alise> The Player of Games
22:00:29 <alise> The State of the Art [novella]
22:00:29 <alise> Use of Weapons
22:00:29 <alise> Excession
22:00:31 <alise> Inversions
22:00:33 <alise> Look to Windward
22:00:35 <alise> Matter
22:00:37 <alise> Insert Gift somewhere, anywhere.
22:00:39 <alise> (But only in the right place!)
22:01:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Go by publication date if you really need to make a meaningful decision.
22:01:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I read the entirety of TSOTA after CP and UOW.
22:01:30 <Phantom_Hoover> I couldn't find POG for ages.
22:01:59 <alise> Does TPOG mention the War much?
22:02:02 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Not really.
22:02:22 <alise> You seem to imply that Gift unusually for something near the War doesn't, so perhaps I can figure it out by measuring how "fresh" the War is in the books.
22:02:24 <alise> Darn.
22:02:29 <alise> Oh well.
22:02:35 <Phantom_Hoover> It mentions the outcome, but that's pretty obvious.
22:02:49 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Now for the ultimate anality:
22:03:00 <alise> Which publications are best!
22:03:03 <Phantom_Hoover> And CP doesn't even deal with the end of the war outside the appendix.
22:04:38 <alise> Large preference for hardback. Antipreference for large hardback.
22:04:42 <alise> Not that you'll know. At all.
22:06:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has joined.
22:06:19 <Phantom_Hoover_> alise, what are you even planning to use to get them?
22:07:15 <alise> The ... internet?
22:07:53 <Phantom_Hoover_> Well, I only have paperbacks of the weird abstract cover variety.
22:09:34 <cpressey> pikhq: Actually, things that operate *on* monads are a lot easier for me to comprehend than monads *themselves*.
22:09:45 <alise> "It, Robot: 1" is so badly-written. :(
22:09:53 <alise> If it wasn't for the rest of the Ed stories, it would be unforgivable.
22:10:03 <Phantom_Hoover_> cpressey, do you understand Maybe?
22:10:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:10:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover_ has changed nick to Phantom_Hoover.
22:10:42 <pikhq> cpressey: Hah.
22:11:01 <pikhq> cpressey: Okay, you might gain comprehension using Identity or Maybe.
22:11:23 <pikhq> Identity: (Identity x) >>= f = f x; return x = Identity x
22:11:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Maybe: Nothing >>= _ = Nothing
22:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> (Just x) >>= f = f x
22:12:17 <Phantom_Hoover> return x = Just x
22:12:20 <alise> pikhq: Hey, do you know what TeX value I need to tweak to tell it not to create widows or orphans or whatever this one is (paragraphs with their last line on their own page)?
22:14:06 <alise> Underfull \vbox (badness 10000) has occurred while \output is active [3]
22:14:07 <alise> Hm.
22:14:31 <pikhq> No, I don't.
22:14:47 <alise> Darn.
22:15:01 <alise> Okay, do you know of any simple script I can tweak that will just match "..." dammit and replace them with ``...''?
22:15:09 <alise> Sure, I could write one myself, but I forget the rules to determine start/end.
22:15:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, does that help?
22:16:35 <cheater99> you gotta do the cooking by the book!
22:17:04 <oerjan> non sequitur culinaris
22:17:19 <pikhq> alise: No, but I'd love one.
22:17:57 <alise> pikhq: I mean, it's basically word-boundary (start of line or space)" -> ``, non-word-boundary -> ''.
22:18:07 <alise> But this is a bitch to do via a regexp. Here, I volunteer you go and write one, and I'll.
22:18:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:19:18 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You're creepin' me out.
22:19:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
22:19:53 -!- jcp has joined.
22:20:03 <cheater99> wtf alise
22:20:20 <cheater99> hello [^:word:]
22:20:27 <cheater99> hello [^\W] ??
22:20:36 <cheater99> or even [^\w] ??
22:21:06 <ais523> (^| )"=\1``|"=''
22:21:11 <ais523> go Cyclexa
22:21:56 <ais523> alise: it's not massively hard via /two/ regexps, incidentally
22:22:11 <alise> ais523: Perhaps not, but Perl et al seem to have a fucked up definition of word boundaries that make it always break.
22:22:13 <ais523> use one to replace " with `` where necessary, the other to replace the remaining " with ''
22:22:20 <alise> I'd be glad to see your regexp.
22:22:52 <Sgeo> "Since, in most Smalltalk environments, the execution stack is a first-class citizen, coroutines can be implemented without additional library or VM support.
22:22:53 <Sgeo> "
22:23:05 <ais523> s/(?:^| )\K"/``/g; s/"/''/g;
22:23:08 <ais523> there you go
22:23:10 <Sgeo> Thanks Wikipedia, for telling me it can be done, but not giving me the slightest clue how
22:23:42 <alise> ais523: does that work with #!perl -p, I wonder?
22:23:59 <alise> Yes, it does. I think.
22:24:50 <alise> ais523: So "s/(?:^| )\K-\K(?:$| )/--/g;" for a - on its own, or what?
22:25:03 <ais523> \K twice makes no sense
22:25:15 <ais523> it means "don't substitute anything before this point in a s/// expression"
22:25:25 <alise> ah
22:25:53 <alise> s/(^| )-( |$)/$1--$2/g;
22:25:54 <alise> then
22:26:17 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:26:41 <alise> brb
22:27:17 <cpressey> Phantom_Hoover: You seem overly concerned about whether I "understand monads" or not.
22:27:29 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, it's part of the Plan.
22:27:44 <Phantom_Hoover> You're more susceptible to the Device if you understand monad.
22:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> s/ad/ads/
22:32:23 * Phantom_Hoover notes that there's another Culture book coming out in October.
22:34:11 <myndzi> i gotta read more of those
22:34:14 <myndzi> i liked the ones i did read
22:34:21 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
22:34:22 <myndzi> |
22:34:22 <myndzi> |\
22:34:23 <myndzi> also: the names of the ships :D
22:34:32 <Phantom_Hoover> myndzi, indeed.
22:34:48 <Phantom_Hoover> Which ones, then?
22:35:27 <myndzi> i don't remember :)
22:35:32 <myndzi> whichever ones were at the used book store
22:36:31 <myndzi> consider phlebas, i think
22:36:33 <myndzi> and another one
22:36:35 <Phantom_Hoover> myndzi, any ship names you can remember?
22:36:51 <myndzi> i believe i have inversions but i haven't read it yet
22:37:04 <myndzi> nah, honestly i don't remember all that much about either of them
22:37:11 <myndzi> i have a shitty memory that way
22:37:43 <myndzi> i could list them when i get home if you are particularly interested or something :P
22:38:20 <Phantom_Hoover> _o_
22:38:20 <myndzi> |
22:38:20 <myndzi> |\
22:38:31 <myndzi> \o\ /o/ \o\
22:38:31 <myndzi> | |
22:38:31 <myndzi> /< /'\
22:38:34 <myndzi> lol
22:38:36 <myndzi> i forgot about that
22:39:17 <oerjan> \o/o/
22:39:48 <oerjan> /o/o/o/
22:39:55 <myndzi> that's odd, it should have detected one of those at least i'd think
22:40:03 <myndzi> maybe flood protection or something
22:40:13 <myndzi> \o/o/
22:40:16 <myndzi> huh
22:40:17 * oerjan is sure he recalled some bug involving something like that
22:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> \o\\
22:40:27 <myndzi> |
22:40:27 <myndzi> >\
22:40:35 -!- AnMaster has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net).
22:40:38 <oerjan> hm maybe
22:40:38 <myndzi> it may be some regex failure on my part
22:40:46 <oerjan> \o\\o\
22:40:46 <myndzi> | |
22:40:46 <myndzi> /| /<
22:40:49 <Phantom_Hoover> /o//
22:40:49 <myndzi> |
22:40:49 <myndzi> /\
22:40:50 <myndzi> i don't think so though
22:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
22:40:52 <myndzi> |
22:40:52 <myndzi> /|
22:40:57 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/o
22:40:58 <myndzi> since the regex for that one is pretty simple
22:41:08 <oerjan> hm...
22:41:12 <oerjan> _o_o_o_
22:41:13 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/a
22:41:19 <oerjan> _o_o_o_
22:41:19 <myndzi> oh
22:41:21 <myndzi> i know what it is
22:41:34 <Phantom_Hoover> It ignores if there's a non /\_ character after the arm.
22:41:36 <myndzi> i modified the regex to help avoid things like urls with _o_ in them
22:41:37 <myndzi> |
22:41:37 <myndzi> /<
22:41:48 <oerjan> oh
22:41:50 <myndzi> so it has a \w check now
22:41:57 <oerjan> then that may have been after the bug
22:42:10 <myndzi> probably, it was a pretty recent change
22:42:13 <oerjan> YOU RUINED THE BUG
22:42:16 <myndzi> lol
22:42:37 <myndzi> there, i took the \w check out
22:42:41 <myndzi> \o/o/
22:42:41 <myndzi>
22:42:41 <myndzi>
22:42:48 <oerjan> _o_o_o_
22:42:48 <myndzi> | |
22:42:48 <myndzi> >\/|
22:42:52 <myndzi> lots of guys stepping on landmines these days
22:42:55 <myndzi> haha that's awesome
22:43:12 <myndzi> it's actually not a bug though: `\(o_O)/'
22:43:14 <oerjan> thar's the bug
22:43:15 <myndzi> well
22:43:17 <myndzi> it's actually not a bug though: `\(o_o)/'
22:43:22 <myndzi> failure, maybe it is a bug
22:43:38 <oerjan> o_o
22:43:44 <oerjan> o_o_o
22:43:44 <myndzi> |
22:43:44 <myndzi> /<
22:43:55 <myndzi> i am so confused right now
22:44:00 <oerjan> dance of the mutants
22:44:14 <myndzi> and honestly, i do not want to debug this: /((?<!\\m\/.\\m\/.|\\m\/.\\m\/)\\m\/.\\m\/(?!.?\\m\/.\\m\/)|[-\\\/|_\<]o?[-\\\/|_\>]|([.o])_?(?!\2)[.o]|ಠ‿ರೃ)/gS
22:44:14 <myndzi> ¯|¯⌠
22:44:14 <myndzi> /| |
22:44:28 <myndzi> or rewrite it for that matter
22:44:34 <Slereah> /o/
22:44:34 <myndzi> |
22:44:34 <myndzi> /<
22:44:49 <oerjan> o_o_o o_o_o o_o_o
22:44:52 <myndzi> haha
22:44:55 <Slereah> \o/
22:44:55 <myndzi> |
22:44:56 <myndzi> >\
22:45:07 <myndzi> the o_o thing is for the funky faces
22:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/o/o/o/o/o/o/
22:45:08 <myndzi> | | | |
22:45:08 <myndzi> |\ |\ /\ /|
22:45:18 <myndzi> (._)
22:45:19 <myndzi> |
22:45:19 <myndzi> |\
22:45:33 <myndzi> i could swear it should pick up (o_o)
22:45:35 <myndzi> but it doesn't
22:45:40 <oerjan> (O_o)
22:46:00 <oerjan> (._o)
22:46:00 <myndzi> |
22:46:00 <myndzi> >\
22:46:05 <myndzi> must be a failure of the first regex
22:46:08 <Slereah> (o)
22:46:15 <myndzi> i wonder if they differ somehow
22:46:16 <Slereah> _o_
22:46:16 <myndzi> |
22:46:16 <myndzi> >\
22:46:21 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/o/o/o/o/o/o/
22:46:21 <myndzi> | | | |
22:46:21 <myndzi> /'\ /`\ /| |\
22:46:26 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
22:46:27 <myndzi> |
22:46:27 <myndzi> >\
22:46:27 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
22:46:27 <myndzi> |
22:46:27 <myndzi> /<
22:46:31 <alise> ais523: what's the perl to slurp all of stdin?
22:46:36 <myndzi> ah
22:46:37 <alise> or "stdin + arguments", that thing
22:46:37 <myndzi> they do
22:46:43 <myndzi> they can't be the same character
22:46:48 <myndzi> interesting
22:46:49 <ais523> alise: undef $/;
22:46:50 <alise> ais523: just all of stdin in one string
22:46:55 <ais523> means that Perl won't consider anything a line separator
22:46:56 <alise> ais523: nononono, the way that doesn't hurt babies
22:47:08 <ais523> {local $/; $stdin=<>;}
22:47:11 <myndzi> bug should be fixed
22:47:13 <myndzi> _o_o_
22:47:21 <ais523> see, as long as you let no babies between the braces, you should be fine
22:47:38 <alise> dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}dots{}'
22:47:38 <cpressey> A monad is a pair of higher-order functions which encapsulate the pattern of passing extra parameters between the functions to which they are applied.
22:47:38 <alise> Hmm.
22:47:41 <cpressey> THERE.
22:47:42 <oerjan> i think i used something like $_ = join <>, '' somewhere
22:47:49 <alise> s/.../\ldots{}/g;
22:47:50 <alise> Whoops.
22:47:54 <fizzie> If you want it more readable, ... join it like that.
22:47:54 <ais523> oerjan: that removes all newlines
22:47:59 <oerjan> !show slashes
22:47:59 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
22:48:05 <ais523> $_ = join <>, $/;
22:48:11 <ais523> would add whatever the newline char at the time was
22:48:18 <ais523> (and as a bonus, $/ is shorter than "\n")
22:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> !show slashes
22:48:23 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
22:48:29 <oerjan> $_ = join '', <>; it was
22:48:41 <alise> ais523: Yo, ais523, your regexp is crampin' my style
22:48:43 <cpressey> I knew I'd eventually understand it.
22:48:47 <alise> s/<p>/\n\n/g;
22:48:47 <alise> s/<\/p>//g;
22:48:48 <oerjan> and that most definitely doesn't remove the newlines
22:48:50 <Phantom_Hoover> !show pi
22:48:51 <alise> This makes it replace all quotes with ``
22:48:51 <EgoBot> sh read p; if [ "x$p" = "x" ]; then p=5; fi; echo "scale=$p; a(1)*4;" | BC_LINE_LENGTH=490 bc -l | tr -d '\\'
22:48:54 <alise> if I put it before your regexp, man
22:49:06 <alise> What's up wit dat, duude.
22:49:19 <ais523> alise: well, obviously
22:49:19 <alise> ais523: oh, does $/ break ^ in regexp? :D
22:49:22 <ais523> ^ matches the start of a line
22:49:27 <alise> obviously why?
22:49:28 <alise> indeed
22:49:31 <ais523> or the start of a string
22:49:37 <ais523> add the /m flag at the end of the regex
22:49:39 <ais523> and it'll match newlines
22:49:43 <alise> and things like "abc" at the start of <p>-lines that become "-starting-lines, the " gets replaced with ``
22:50:07 <alise> Hmm, it works now.
22:51:45 <alise> Anyone know any nice typewriter-y fonts? Not necessarily monospaced, just the kind of thing that /looks/ typewritery/terminaly.
22:51:45 <cpressey> Of course, feel free to tell me I'm still wrong.
22:51:53 <alise> To set the monospaced portion of http://qntm.org/dropout.
22:52:31 <pikhq> alise: Something actually typewriter-like? Might I recommend Courier New?
22:52:43 <ais523> cpressey: you're right pretty much
22:52:57 <alise> pikhq: That's monospaced, though; I don't particularly require monospcaed.
22:52:59 <alise> *monospaced
22:53:09 <ais523> although, it's like passing the parameters by reference more than by value
22:53:16 <alise> Besides ... Courier is nicer than Courier New.
22:53:17 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, but it's actually typewriter-imitation.
22:53:24 <pikhq> Okay, Courier.
22:53:44 <alise> Okay; now tell me of a nice pdfTeX version. :P
22:54:27 <alise> Additionally... Is there a nice LaTeX command to set those little "break in text" flourishes used to mark mini-sections (often three stars like ***)?
22:54:33 <pikhq> alise: \usepackage{courier}
22:54:33 <alise> Specifically with the space before and after.
22:54:35 <cpressey> ais523: Eeer umm... kinda but also no.
22:54:49 <ais523> cpressey: also a good description
22:55:46 <pikhq> Oh, and Courier's apparently not merely typewriter-imitation.
22:55:58 <pikhq> It's the actual typeface that was used in most typewriters from the 50s on.
22:56:26 <ais523> there were multiples, IIRC
22:56:30 <ais523> Courier, Elite, Orator
22:56:34 <ais523> but I think Courier was the most common
22:56:51 <pikhq> Yeah, Courier was the most common due to being free to use.
22:58:16 <alise> Okay; now how do I use courier with the verbatim environment?
22:58:32 <alise> Or does it automatically do that?
22:58:42 <alise> "The font that is actually provided is URW Nimbus Mono (A Courier clone)." Oh, great...
22:59:07 <pikhq> Urgh.
22:59:42 <pikhq> Hrm. Terminal-y font? Maybe fixedsys?
23:00:08 <alise> Nah, Courier is great for this.
23:00:20 <alise> Is there any command in LaTeX for... "vskip one blank line"? Like, including line height and such?
23:00:31 <pikhq> Mmkay. Guess it'll just be a pain getting Courier installed right, then.
23:01:08 <alise> Eh, I'll just use the imitation for now.
23:01:24 <alise> It's not /awful/ or anything; it's not like monospaced fonts are paragons of typographic excellence, anyway.
23:01:28 <oerjan> "This extra space, especially when co-occurring at a page break, may contain an asterisk, three asterisks, a special stylistic dingbat, or a special symbol known as an asterism."
23:02:03 <alise> I love me some asterisms
23:02:06 <alise> *asterisms.
23:02:06 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterism_(typography) contains actual latex code
23:02:13 <alise> \newcommand{\asterism}{\smash{%
23:02:13 <alise> \raisebox{-.5ex}{%
23:02:13 <alise> \setlength{\tabcolsep}{-.5pt}%
23:02:13 <alise> \begin{tabular}{@{}cc@{}}%
23:02:13 <alise> \multicolumn2c*\\[-2ex]*&*%
23:02:13 <alise> \end{tabular}}}}
23:02:15 <alise> Yeah.
23:02:24 <alise> But I still need that skip-one-line thing.
23:02:50 <alise> It seems that that \asterism won't center properly.
23:03:07 <oerjan> \vspace{...some length...}, i presume
23:03:20 <alise> \vskip works
23:03:26 <alise> but I'd like it to figure out the length for me
23:04:15 <oerjan> there is presumably some length designation for that particular length
23:04:54 <alise> oh?
23:05:05 <alise> I'm not sure what you mean.
23:05:24 -!- Starmage has joined.
23:05:37 <alise> hi Starmage
23:05:39 <oerjan> latex has many length designations, like em for the width of an m
23:05:43 <Starmage> hellow
23:06:39 <oerjan> http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2010-January/015564.html is relevant to the centering
23:07:42 <oerjan> http://www.tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2010-January/015565.html says to delete the \smash
23:08:11 <alise> \centerline works
23:08:14 <alise> thanks
23:08:34 <alise> I know about em, that's a standard typographical unit.
23:08:43 <alise> I do not believe there is one for "vertical space of one line, including spacing"...
23:10:59 <Sgeo> Communication Fail :(
23:12:16 * alise thinks of a name for the break, since \break is taken
23:13:08 <oerjan> http://www.public.asu.edu/~rjansen/latexdoc/ltx-86.html
23:13:47 <alise> \baselineskip
23:13:49 <oerjan> \baselineskip + \parskip or something like it
23:13:50 <alise> I think
23:14:33 <alise> oerjan: no, i'm not so sure
23:14:36 <alise> that's just line spacing + par spacing
23:14:39 <alise> not the actual length of the line
23:14:42 <alise> I think \textheight would do that
23:15:11 -!- Starmage has left (?).
23:15:28 <alise> oerjan: oh, and those /set/, silly
23:15:34 <alise> I think
23:16:52 -!- SimonRC has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:18:11 <alise> um, I'm terribly confused
23:18:44 <oerjan> ?
23:21:34 <alise> I got it working, thanks :P
23:21:43 <oerjan> :)
23:22:19 <Phantom_Hoover> /O/
23:23:22 <alise> pikhq: Sam Hughes could do with a typography lesson.
23:23:30 <alise> Or at least, Ed stories-era Sam Hughes could.
23:23:42 <alise> Maybe Fine Structure actually has proper quotes and e[nm] dashes.
23:25:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:25:49 <alise> "...which would cause the universe as we know it to cease to exist, with potentially devastating consequences." --Ed
23:26:13 <oerjan> potentially.
23:27:11 -!- SimonRC has joined.
23:27:31 * alise wonders why Be Here Now lists the total number of chapters in its chapter titles
23:27:32 <alise> oh well
23:27:36 <alise> oerjan: Well, Ed is that kind of guy.
23:27:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Who's Ed?
23:30:35 <alise> http://qntm.org/ed
23:30:44 <alise> Or, you could wait for my super-duper nicely-typesetted one.
23:30:51 * Phantom_Hoover notes that one of Gaiman's short stories has been made into an obscene number of films
23:31:03 <alise> Which?
23:31:14 <Phantom_Hoover> We Can Get Them For You Wholesale.
23:31:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Searching for it on Youtube is ridiculous.
23:31:36 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined.
23:32:33 <myndzi> that story is awesome
23:32:41 <myndzi> i didn't know there was a film for it
23:32:49 <myndzi> or (m)any of his others
23:32:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:32:55 <myndzi> i did see the bbc(?) neverwhere production
23:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> myndzi, there are a mad number of student films of that one.
23:33:10 <myndzi> and that one novel.. hell, i can't think of the name of it at the moment
23:33:14 <myndzi> i wanna say star something or other
23:33:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Stardust?
23:33:24 <myndzi> yeah
23:33:33 <myndzi> i've become rather a fan of gaiman haha
23:33:37 <myndzi> my collection should be about complete
23:33:44 <myndzi> even the kids books ;)
23:34:00 <myndzi> i still need some of the Sandman specials though
23:34:15 <Phantom_Hoover> I *still* can't find Season of Mist.
23:34:18 <myndzi> Smoke and Mirrors is one of my favorite publications though
23:34:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I've been looking for *months*.
23:34:32 <myndzi> there's just so MANY good stories in there
23:34:46 * oerjan has read Season of Mist *MWAHAHAHA*
23:34:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, DIE.
23:34:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Or send me your copy.
23:35:09 <oerjan> i didn't say i had a _copy_ :D
23:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> AA
23:35:16 <oerjan> i read it at the library
23:35:22 <cpressey> actually oerjan has the original
23:35:22 <myndzi> http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=10919118&matches=15&keyword=season+of+mists&cm_sp=works*listing*title
23:35:24 <alise> "Ahhhh, and now I get it," says Ed-B. Now I see why you came back and left everyone behind in your old universe."
23:35:29 <alise> You missed an opening quote, Sam.
23:35:39 <myndzi> there are a number of copies starting at around $12
23:35:43 <oerjan> where they presumably still has one (or two, probably at least one in norwegian and one in english)
23:35:52 <oerjan> *have
23:35:59 <myndzi> my Sandman copies are that newer two-tone color cover
23:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, steal it and drop it off at the top of the Scott Monument at noon on Wednesday.
23:36:03 <myndzi> i liked the other covers better
23:36:12 <myndzi> but i couldn't beat the price and getting to buy them all at once
23:36:33 <myndzi> i kinda wanna buy the covers i liked and sell the other ones or something, but that'd be a pain
23:36:37 <myndzi> and i'm not really all that picky about covers
23:37:16 <myndzi> anyway, gonna have to look up that youtube stuff, sounds fun
23:37:44 <cpressey> why do I have a horizontal scrollbar on this chat window?
23:37:59 <Phantom_Hoover> cpressey, FASCISM
23:38:01 <myndzi> ask your irc client
23:38:02 <cpressey> i see nothing that failed to wrap
23:38:09 <myndzi> Phantom_Hoover: you visited the link, yes?
23:38:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Yes, but I couldn't get audio.
23:38:29 <myndzi> i am confused
23:38:41 <myndzi> it is not a link that requires audio
23:38:42 <Phantom_Hoover> No, I mean me, individually.
23:38:57 <myndzi> it is however a link where you can purchase what you were looking for
23:38:57 <myndzi> :)
23:39:10 <oerjan> cpressey: what about myndzi's last link?
23:39:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, I thought you were talking about something else.
23:39:33 <myndzi> nope
23:39:35 <cpressey> oerjan: it wrapped
23:40:10 <myndzi> if you scroll down there are some new copies for like $15
23:40:18 <myndzi> i mean, one
23:40:24 * myndzi buys it and goes NYAHAHAHA
23:40:25 <myndzi> ;p
23:40:47 <cpressey> oerjan: er, i'm not terribly interested in the book itself, if that's what you meant
23:40:58 <Phantom_Hoover> myndzi, UK.
23:41:01 <oerjan> cpressey: no it was just a guess
23:41:13 <myndzi> Phantom_Hoover: so? i'm sure you can find someone who will ship there
23:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, you know the plan?
23:41:35 <myndzi> would you like me to proxy buy one for you?
23:41:40 <oerjan> yes, it involves a man and a canal in panama
23:42:13 <myndzi> a man, a can, a pan
23:42:45 <oerjan> can a man nap?
23:43:02 <myndzi> can a nan map?
23:43:55 <oerjan> madam, can adam plan a canal?
23:44:27 <myndzi> adam, can madam do anal?
23:44:28 <myndzi> ;p
23:44:46 <myndzi> Phantom_Hoover: i am about to leave; you can drop me a query if you decide you want to take me up on the offer
23:44:54 <Phantom_Hoover> myndzi, NEVER
23:44:54 <myndzi> and i'll see it later
23:44:58 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
23:45:03 <myndzi> o_O
23:45:10 <Phantom_Hoover> DAMN YOU!
23:45:14 <Phantom_Hoover> \o/
23:45:16 <myndzi> why doesnt work /o/
23:45:22 <oerjan> |o/
23:45:28 <Phantom_Hoover> _o_
23:45:29 <myndzi> |
23:45:29 <myndzi> |\
23:45:31 <myndzi> i maek mastake /o/
23:45:31 <myndzi> |
23:45:31 <myndzi> /`\
23:45:34 <myndzi> is fix
23:46:52 <augur> eep
23:47:07 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:47:21 -!- augur has joined.
23:47:24 <Phantom_Hoover> O_o
23:47:30 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
23:47:30 <myndzi> |
23:47:30 <myndzi> >\
23:47:42 <augur> oerjan: im glad you liked my joke :D
23:47:48 <calamari> is this what you were hunting for? a man, a plan, a canal: panama
23:47:56 <alise> Anyone read Ed stories? I know pikhq and Sgeo have.
23:48:15 <oerjan> calamari: hunting? we were already dismembering the body
23:48:19 <Slereah> /o/ _o_ |o| \o\
23:48:19 <myndzi> | | | |
23:48:19 <myndzi> |\ /| >\ /|
23:48:22 <calamari> oerjan, I don't see it
23:48:31 <calamari> guess I lost a line
23:49:03 <cpressey> I ram a lack ok, calamari!
23:49:42 <calamari> lol
23:50:41 <oerjan> armadillo, rama lama ding dong
23:52:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:53:21 <alise> ``I wanna go to Andromeda,'' says Ed, rotating the ship to point
23:53:21 <alise> towards an extraordinarily distant blob of light.
23:53:22 <alise> ``We can't go to Andromeda,'' I remind him sternly.
23:53:24 <alise> Lulz, lampshading.
23:53:42 * oerjan read the Ed stories earlier this year and alise is probably to blame for it
23:53:51 <HackEgo> No output.
23:53:58 <HackEgo> No output.
23:55:44 <alise> oerjan: I told you to read them. So, yeah.
23:55:57 <alise> oerjan: Either you didn't like them, or you just wanted to make me feel bad. :P
23:56:00 <alise> (wrt "blame")
23:56:38 <oerjan> false dichomoty!
23:56:42 <oerjan> *tomy
23:57:59 <alise> oerjan: so what's the true option? :P
23:58:24 <alise> pikhq: Okay, do you know the variable to adjust to stop -- from appearing at the start of a line?
23:58:26 <alise> It's ugly.
23:58:45 <alise> Also, a way to make it disable ligatures when stretching text would be nice. Ha ha, only kidding, I've read the microtype docs, TeX sucks enough that that's impossible.
23:58:51 <oerjan> i thought they were all right, and was joking
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