←2010-08-13 2010-08-14 2010-08-15→ ↑2010 ↑all
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00:00:10 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, the problem comes down to do { putChar 'a' ; c <- getChar ; putChar 'b' ; putChar c }
00:00:47 <Phantom_Hoover> I have tested this, and by default it prints "ab", and then reads the character and prints it.
00:00:56 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: getChar needs to make its (empty) output strict in its input
00:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, wait, I think I have an idea.
00:02:05 <Phantom_Hoover> OK, my tests are now maxing out the clipboard.
00:02:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Anyway...
00:02:33 <oerjan> getChar i = case i of (c:rest) -> (rest, id, c) | otherwise = error something
00:02:39 <oerjan> *otherwise ->
00:02:50 <oerjan> *; otherwise ->
00:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, that is the exact implementation I have.
00:03:39 <oerjan> the important part there is that getting to the id _must_ force looking at i strictly
00:04:03 <oerjan> i.e. it does a strict match, not a lazy one
00:04:43 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, yes; my experimentation has shown that trivial arithmetic identities work for that.
00:05:38 <oerjan> in fact it might have to force looking at c, depending on whether lazy k's input _spine_ forces any input or not
00:06:13 <oerjan> (the spine being the cons cells but not their cars, in essence)
00:06:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I'm just going to make getchar look at c.
00:06:55 <oerjan> yeah
00:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> ...And it doesn't seem to work.
00:08:20 <Phantom_Hoover> Presumably because bind can't look at what's in the first argument.
00:08:21 <oerjan> and are you sure that looking at the output of a >>= f looks at the output of a first?
00:08:23 <alise> oerjan: quick, simplify sum(ceil(log a_i)) - ceil(sum(log a_i))
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00:09:01 <Gregor-W> -☃ + x
00:09:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the _output_ part from a >>= f can look at the first argument, is what i've been saying
00:10:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, http://pastebin.com/BE3FAMVD is the current definition of bind; critique away.
00:10:12 <oerjan> because it is of the form ao . fo, and when you apply that laziness causes you to look at ao first
00:10:23 <oerjan> alise: AAARGH
00:12:15 * Phantom_Hoover is feeling very odd.
00:12:18 <alise> oerjan: Dammit
00:12:25 <alise> oerjan: But it's interestiiing!
00:12:28 <Phantom_Hoover> I cannot make myself believe that London is the capital of the UK.
00:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know why
00:12:43 <Phantom_Hoover> The name just suddenly seems utterly unfamiliar.
00:12:47 <Gregor-W> Phantom_Hoover: As opposed to?
00:13:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the (o xout ...) should _not_ be inside an invocation of f
00:13:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, ah, thanks.
00:13:40 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: it isn't, it's the capital of england
00:13:50 <alise> well ok the uk too
00:13:52 <alise> but primarily england!
00:14:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, seriously? You need to learn some geography.
00:14:26 <alise> I meant that it was primarily the capital of England!
00:14:36 <alise> I was just trying to reassure you, sheesh.
00:15:12 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the feeling's kind of gone, though I still think "London? What a weird name" involuntarily.
00:16:27 <alise> oerjan: I'm surprised the value of (sum(ceil(log a_i)) - ceil(sum(log a_i))) isn't a common thing, actually.
00:16:38 <oerjan> alise: hm well it should be possible to write a_i = base^n * c_i where 1 < c_i <= base and then i think replacing a_i by c_i gives the same result
00:16:50 <alise> oerjan: It's how more efficient the optimal representation of a structure is vs. the easy representation.
00:16:55 <alise> (Consider base-2.)
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00:17:17 <oerjan> i.e. multiplying an a_i with a power of the base does not change the result
00:17:53 <alise> oerjan: does that actually help? :D
00:18:15 <oerjan> and then the first sum is just the number of the a_i's
00:18:27 <oerjan> (all those ceilings are 1)
00:19:13 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, wait, where should I be concatenating the output lists for bind?
00:19:20 <alise> oerjan: hmm
00:19:31 <alise> oerjan: does this actually simplify anything though?
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00:19:42 <alise> -- let's call the length of a n --
00:19:53 <Sgeo> Router likes crapping on me
00:20:11 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: everyone knows london is a small town on Mars, near the capital of O'Wobble
00:20:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, and should I concatenate lists there?
00:20:42 <alise> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0011E5RNO/
00:20:45 <alise> Function generator!
00:22:23 <Sgeo> My sound also likes crapping on me
00:22:26 <Sgeo> BRB
00:22:37 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, however your representation must be such that when looking at (o xout fout), evaluation of fout (i.e. essentially application of f) is not triggered by looking at the xout part
00:22:59 <oerjan> well lists or functions, i don't think that matters for this issue
00:24:15 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I can't really see how that can be done.
00:24:38 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: any properly lazy language can do that >:)
00:25:41 <Sgeo> Of course it takes two minutes for the window with shutdown options to appear
00:25:44 <Sgeo> Why shouldn't it?
00:25:48 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, the result of a bind has to be a triple which includes the concatenated output, yes?
00:26:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Unless I change the whole architecture of the system.
00:26:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: yes, but there is no reason why returning that triple should require evaluating all the parts of it
00:27:54 <oerjan> hm i guess the trouble here is how to make a lazy triple of stuff from the corresponding strict version
00:28:21 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, how does the current implementation require evaluation of the entire triple?
00:28:22 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Suggestion: A completely new .XCompose that doesn't include the default ones, since they suck.
00:28:32 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, relevant.
00:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> s/triple/output/
00:29:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I was just suggesting it randomly.
00:29:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, some of the defaults are useful.
00:29:21 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well it requires the application of _f_ just to look at the xout part, which is the real problem.
00:29:36 <Phantom_Hoover> "+char for diæresis is helful.
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00:29:40 <Phantom_Hoover> *p
00:29:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, ah, yes.
00:29:54 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but altogether it has a bunch of crappy bindings, and it'd be far better to just do it again ourselves.
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00:30:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I stuck the tuple unpacking in the application to f because the alternative was pretty ugly.
00:31:24 <oerjan> oh you have a triple function, hm
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00:33:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Suggestion: MetaCompose, a program for spitting out compose files!
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00:33:22 <alise> You write: "a ä
00:33:23 <alise> and it spits out
00:33:32 <alise> <Multi_key> <"> <a> : "ä"
00:33:49 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, more helpful if it lets you iterate.
00:33:54 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you probably need to generate the triple from f as a lazy variable, then construct the final triple from that
00:34:03 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: I'm thinking it could run it through some type of templating thing.
00:34:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, hang on, I'm working on it.
00:34:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Wait, how is iterating more helpful?
00:35:16 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, yeah, I didn't really think that through.
00:35:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: It'd only be helpful if you had a diaeresise() function, which would be just as hard as manually listing them.
00:35:53 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, true.
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00:37:38 * oerjan declares the logs too long today
00:39:20 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, how could space be represented?
00:39:28 <alise> Or maybe the separator should be tab.
00:40:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, changed bind to http://pastebin.com/LwX0A14t , no change in behaviour.
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00:41:01 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Although that's a bit confusing.
00:41:27 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, quote if it has spaces?
00:41:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Or backslash?
00:42:41 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm i don't know why that wouldn't work
00:42:47 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps.
00:43:14 <oerjan> although you might want f xv xin to be shared, that shouldn't have anything to do with this problem...
00:43:33 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: but what about <"> <space>? :D
00:43:47 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, \"\
00:45:04 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Vomit.
00:45:04 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, I can only assume Gould wanted me to suffer.
00:45:13 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: good luck debugging this >:(
00:45:24 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, or just backslashes for everything.
00:45:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Vomitochondria.
00:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, because only backslash and space need escaping.
00:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> For everything else, it's all pretty.
00:46:29 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
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00:58:53 <Gregor> nooga should be online: http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/post/948073732
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01:06:23 <CakeProphet> I am a robot
01:07:03 <alise> I am a bobot
01:08:09 <Gregor> I am an eccentric robot who longs to be human.
01:08:38 <Gregor> (As indicated in a Facebook comment I made on Aug. 7 :P)
01:09:17 <oerjan> I am a bored dot
01:11:33 <alise> I'm a dored bot.
01:18:16 <Sgeo> Ok, "Time" was as awesome as I thought it'd be
01:21:12 <Warrigal> I am a bored hole.
01:32:57 <alise> http://esolangs.org/wiki/01
01:34:56 * Sgeo vaguely finds Warrigal on Reddit
01:36:17 <Warrigal> Did you find a comment by uorygl on Reddit?
01:38:26 <Sgeo> Yes
01:38:54 <alise> Someone write an assembler for ByteByteJump. >_>
01:39:18 <Warrigal> Neat. Which one?
01:39:53 <Sgeo> Your two most recent non-submissions
01:39:56 <Sgeo> :/
01:40:09 * Warrigal nods.
01:41:30 <alise> Gregor: Link me to your munger thing that spits out an image, not that silly web interface, plz
01:41:39 <alise> Sgeo: Why :/?
01:41:54 <Gregor> alise: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php
01:42:08 <alise> Gregor: What are the paramateroodlies?
01:42:19 <Gregor> Documentation in http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.phps
01:42:38 <Gregor> (Source code = documentation)
01:42:54 <alise>     "-1" => "joey",
01:42:56 <alise>     "05" => "05-5.1",
01:42:56 <alise>     "16" => "16-1",
01:42:56 <alise>     "40" => "40.5",
01:42:56 <alise>     "447" => "447-2"
01:42:56 <alise> Whaaaat
01:43:13 <Gregor> Ignore those :P
01:43:25 <alise> Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /var/www/imgs/dinosaurComic.php on line 171
01:43:43 <Gregor> Hmmm, it appears to be borkleborked.
01:43:49 <Gregor> I don't care to fix it right now X-P
01:43:56 <alise> But this is IMPORTANT!
01:44:01 <alise> It will be the best lonelydino submission EVER.
01:44:09 <alise> And yes, I need that script to do it.
01:44:37 <alise> Gregor: It works, just slowly.
01:44:53 <alise> Gregor: Yo yo your IDs totally map incorrectly
01:44:56 <Gregor> Damn, why is it being slow ...
01:45:05 <alise> Unless ?comics= doesn't mean the strip IDs in the URLs???
01:45:07 <Gregor> My IDs map correctly, just not to the IDs at qwantz.com/?here
01:45:20 <Gregor> The strip IDs are as mentioned in the filename, not the URL.
01:45:47 <alise> And ... hypothetically ... if these strips were not numbered, but named?
01:46:23 <Gregor> Then I would need to adjust the script to handle them, but since they're probably not the right size and/or don't have the right configuration to work anyway, it's sort of a whocaresish situation.
01:46:38 <Warrigal> Sgeo: do you read /r/atheism regularly?
01:46:51 <Sgeo> It's on my frontpage
01:46:55 <alise> Gregor: But dammit, I could submit a comic including "panels" of http://www.qwantz.com/comics/smbc.gif!
01:47:05 <alise> And that other self-drawn guest comic of late!
01:47:09 <alise> And still claim it only has the T-Rex panels in!
01:47:16 <alise> Thus creating the weirdest, most cut-off T-Rex is Lonely strip ever!
01:47:21 <alise> I call it... POSTMODERNISM.
01:47:23 <Gregor> Yeah, no :P
01:47:42 <alise> I hate you and die.
01:48:06 <alise> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1772 also
01:48:24 <alise> And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1771
01:48:52 <Gregor> Heh, I see what the issue is X-D
01:48:57 <alise> And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1771
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01:49:07 <Gregor> The guest comics were confusing my "last-comic-value" calculator.
01:49:23 <alise> And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1769 (<3 this one)
01:49:45 <Warrigal> Sgeo: do you find it valuable in any way, or just entertaining?
01:49:47 <alise> AND http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1768
01:49:54 <Gregor> http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php E_WORKSAGAIN
01:50:11 <Sgeo> *shrug*
01:50:12 <alise> Worst error message ever.
01:50:32 <alise> the feared Warrigal inquisition!
01:50:52 <alise> Gregor: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?strip=true&comics=samandfuzzy&panels=1,2,3,4,5 WHAT IS IT THAT IS GOING ON HERE
01:51:22 <alise> ALSO http://www.qwantz.com/comics/badmachinery.png
01:51:24 <alise> Erm http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1767
01:51:41 <Gregor> alise: If you munge it manually, and I like it (doubtful), I can still put it up :P
01:52:21 <alise> Gregor: Do you like glitch music?
01:52:37 <Gregor> ... no? What's "glitch music"
01:52:39 <alise> If so, you will LOVE my not-strictly-only-T-Rex T-Rex-panels-only cut-off-and-clipped T-REX IS LONELY comic production!
01:52:46 <alise> Gregor: Imagine a bunch of audial glitches.
01:52:50 <alise> Repeat for minutes.
01:52:52 <alise> That is glitch music.
01:53:55 <alise> Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Glitch.ogg
01:53:58 <alise> Gregor: glitch music
01:54:26 <alise> a lot of it is ... much more glitchy than that
01:57:25 <Sgeo> Maybe I should turn my A/C on at some point
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02:02:47 <Sgeo> Ugh, with Chrome 6, I can barely tell the difference between an incognito window and a regular one
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02:03:09 <Sgeo> Color difference is too subtle. Guess I have to look for the shady guy in glasses
02:03:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: Can you change the colors?
02:04:27 <Sgeo> I don't know how, nor do I care to bother >.
02:04:28 <Sgeo> >
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02:20:11 <alise> pikhq: Album ReplayGain: awesome thing, or most awesome thing?
02:21:13 <pikhq> alise: Reasonably awesome.
02:21:24 <alise> pikhq: INSUFFICIENT ENTHUSIASM.
02:21:40 <pikhq> alise: Now what's *awesome* is albums that actually have dynamic range.
02:21:52 <pikhq> Fuck the loudness war.
02:22:28 <alise> pikhq: And album ReplayGain retains dynamic range in albums that have it.
02:22:59 <pikhq> Yes.
02:23:00 <alise> I have one album that has something like no dynamic range at all, but it's intentional.
02:24:23 <pikhq> It is royally fucked up that we've got about 90 dB of dynamic range and maybe 10 dB are used.
02:24:40 <alise> Mm.
02:24:57 <alise> I don't mind the lack of dynamic range when it's intentional, though.
02:25:02 <alise> But in most cases, it's not, it's just shitty mixing.
02:25:36 <pikhq> I'm complaining about shitty mixing.
02:26:01 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/GiveItAwayLoudnessComparison.png Not that I care about this song, but this is an atrocity.
02:26:20 <pikhq> (1991 vs. 2003 mastering of "Give It Away" by "Red Hot Chili Peppers")
02:26:25 <alise> That last version must sound truly, truly awful.
02:26:32 <alise> It's clipping ... constantly ...
02:27:19 <pikhq> Yes, the song is made of clip.
02:43:22 <pikhq> *Aaaaah*, FLAC.
02:46:01 <alise> pikhq: Yes, FLAC, that wonderful thing that you can't tell from MP3 but still makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside!
02:46:17 <pikhq> alise: I can hear MP3 artifacts, mostly on percussion.
02:46:17 <alise> The annexation of your disk space feels so nice. <3
02:46:29 <alise> pikhq: Not with lame -V2 --joint-stereo, you can't.
02:46:33 <alise> (Don't argue. You're wrong.)
02:46:40 <pikhq> Yes, but we're not dealing with well-encoded MP3s here.
02:46:44 <alise> Fair enough.
02:46:55 <pikhq> Random, pirated ones. FLAC is the only way to get reasonable audio out of that.
02:47:18 <pikhq> Also, I like being able to transcode to arbitrary formats...
02:47:46 <pikhq> If a device can handle AAC or Ogg, not just MP3, it's damned well getting the smaller-but-better files.
02:48:24 <alise> If a device can handle AAC, Ogg or MP3, it damned well should be getting the smaller-but-better files anyway!
02:49:32 <pikhq> And I would like to be able to instantly switch to some magical, fairy-dust "30kbps gets you transparency" format in the future for devices without terabytes to work with. :P
02:50:41 <pikhq> But yes, a well-encoded MP3 sounds quite good. (though 320kbps ones make me want to kill someone, anyways)
02:52:02 <Gregor> http://codu.org/music/ OK, it's rough, but I've updated my music page.
02:52:08 <Gregor> The menus are autogen'd :)
02:53:02 <pikhq> Gregor: Needs moar FLAC
02:53:21 <Gregor> pikhq: Before I didn't even MENTION the FLAC files, now they're linked, stop complaining :P
02:53:52 <pikhq> Gregor: My phone, sadly, does not yet play Ogg.
02:53:58 <pikhq> Though oddly, it has *libogg* on it.
02:54:07 <Gregor> Wait, I thought you had an Android phone?
02:54:14 <pikhq> No, webOS.
02:54:18 <Gregor> Oh that's right.
02:54:22 <Gregor> You have that shitty piece of shit.
02:54:29 <pikhq> Need to write a decent audio player for it.
02:54:30 <Gregor> Enjoy the MP3s then :P
02:55:02 <pikhq> And by "audio player" I mean "GUI"
02:55:38 <pikhq> Cause there isn't much actual porting needed. Just ARM Linux with a retarded UI.
02:56:08 <pikhq> (who the hell makes a UI to primarily run Javascript?)
02:56:21 <Gregor> Google. Except, incredibly, NOT Google.
02:56:33 <Gregor> Although it's totally something Google would do (*cough* ChromeOS *cough*)
02:56:44 <alise> Gregor: Your little link-menus are waay too big.
02:56:45 <pikhq> Yeah, well, that's webOS.
02:56:48 <alise> Like chunkiness personified.
02:57:01 <pikhq> Though thankfully you can do UIs without Javascript.
02:57:12 <Gregor> alise: Yeah, they are ...
02:57:16 <pikhq> In which case it's SDL with some added functions.
02:57:30 <alise> Gregor: Also, it's not terribly obvious which one is hovering -- might I suggest a background darken, rather than a border change?
02:58:30 <Gregor> alise: OK, just fixed that (locally) ... not sure where in this convoluted mess of CSS the size issue is right now :P
02:59:42 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ mpc volume
02:59:43 <alise> volume:4294967295%
03:01:33 <Gregor> Made menus smaller and flashier.
03:01:43 <pikhq> alise: Loudness war FTW?
03:01:55 <pikhq> :P
03:01:55 <alise> pikhq: No... that's just MPD being crazy as fuck.
03:01:57 <alise> :P
03:02:26 <alise> Gregor: List "Source" under "Sheet music", methinks.
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03:03:38 <Gregor> alise: Where is "source" not under "sheet music"?
03:03:46 <Gregor> OH
03:04:04 <Gregor> Yeah, that's screwy but it's just a modicum more complicated than I'm willing to fix (my generator was not set up for that :P)
03:04:11 <Gregor> I'll fix it E_LATER.
03:04:34 <alise> Development
03:04:34 <alise> To get the code:
03:04:34 <alise> hg clone http://www.red-bean.com/decklin/njiiri.git
03:04:37 <alise> Spot the mistake.
03:04:54 <pikhq> *groan*
03:05:10 <Gregor> With the proper plugin, that still works :P
03:14:46 <Sgeo> What if time travel in the Stargate Verse, except for "1969", uses the Sam Hughes Ed stories model of time travel?
03:14:54 <alise> Gregor: What kind of a plugin is that?
03:15:02 <alise> Sgeo: You mean the obvious model?
03:15:58 <Sgeo> The show implies that when something goes back in time, it changes things and that the original ceases to exist, or something, but what if it doesn't?
03:18:42 <alise> Does anyone here use MPD?
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03:20:18 <Sgeo> alise, it means the people in the sterilized people of 2010 are still sterilized
03:20:21 <Sgeo> ^^^ SPOILERS
03:20:40 <Sgeo> And that ... well, no real implications for the SGA time travel ep, I guess
03:20:48 <alise> Is that an SGU spoiler?
03:20:55 <alise> I suppose not.
03:20:59 <alise> *guess not
03:21:01 <alise> *guess not.
03:21:09 <cpressey> Holy frim fram
03:21:19 <Sgeo> Just an SG-1 spoiler
03:21:30 <alise> Yeah, I don't care about SG-1's ongoing plotlines. Because it has none.
03:21:58 <cpressey> How dare you insult that show I don't care about
03:21:59 <Sgeo> None in the sense of "SG-1 has been cancelled", or as in some slur against SG-1?
03:22:11 <alise> No slur. It's just very episode-oriented.
03:22:21 <alise> So you can never really spoil much more than an episode.
03:23:07 <Sgeo> That's like saying "Carson dies" isn't an SGA spoiler
03:23:10 <Sgeo> >.>
03:23:20 <alise> Have I ever mentioned you should stick your head in a vat of lye?
03:23:22 <alise> Moving on,
03:23:25 <Sgeo> Major events do happen occasionally in SG-1
03:23:36 <alise> (note: I don't care about SGA, but if I did, I would hate your guts right now.)
03:23:44 <cpressey> CARSON DIES?!?? OMG
03:23:47 <cpressey> who's Carson?
03:24:18 <Sgeo> alise, I kind of assumed that if you cared about SGA, you'd have seen all the episodes
03:26:36 <cpressey> Vorpal: is this a permanent new identity for you, AnMaster?
03:26:44 <alise> "American-Canadian military science fiction television franchise Stargate"
03:26:47 <alise> What a linkbomb.
03:29:06 <Sgeo> The Googles! They do something!
03:32:56 <alise> *sigh* why is this shitty
03:33:40 <cpressey> alise: What is "this"?
03:33:52 <alise> Music Player Daemon, it's so almost good.
03:33:52 <cpressey> Maybe I can tell you why it is shitty (hint: I cannot)
03:34:02 <cpressey> Hm
03:34:13 <alise> All I want is ... the ability to use the entire library as a playlist.
03:34:22 <cpressey> That seems reasonable
03:34:31 <alise> I cannot figure out how to achieve this.
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03:41:44 <cpressey> ARIBAS is an interactive interpreter suitable for big integer
03:41:44 <cpressey> arithmetic and multiprecision floating point arithmetic.
03:41:44 <cpressey> It has a syntax similar to Pascal or Modula-2, but contains also
03:41:46 <cpressey> features from other programming languages like C, Lisp, Oberon.
03:41:59 <alise> Okay.
03:42:25 <cpressey> that was meant to be one line
03:42:37 <cpressey> also, it is probably not an amusingly bad as R.
03:42:40 <cpressey> *as
03:43:45 <cpressey> (bad = bad for general programming)
03:45:15 <cpressey> And R is better known (there was a New York Times article about it!) So I will probably implement Thue in R.
03:45:32 <Sgeo> Is Thue turing-complete?
03:45:38 <alise> yes
03:45:43 <cpressey> It better friggin be
03:45:44 <Sgeo> So therefore R is.
03:45:57 <alise> of course R is.
03:45:59 <Sgeo> Or cpressey seeks to do the impossible]
03:46:10 <alise> Thue[deterministic] is TC, too.
03:54:02 <cpressey> Of course cpressey seeks to do the impossible, but not THAT impossible
03:55:55 <cpressey> Right now my level of "impossible" is "get Rosegarden to actually play the notes I entered"
03:56:17 <alise> cpressey: gregor says you're doin it ron
03:56:20 <alise> *rong
03:56:37 <cpressey> Yeah, not surprising. I guess I should checky the loggy
03:56:59 <cpressey> Geh. How do I scroll back in irssi? No, I should goodle this
03:57:08 <alise> shift+pgup
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03:57:34 <alise> wait, maybe you already saw it.
03:57:39 <alise> 12:53:12 <Gregor-W> Y'know, I would answer cpressey's questions, but he's not online :P
03:57:39 <alise> 12:53:19 <Gregor-W> If he's asking that question, then he's doing it all wrong :P
03:57:39 <alise> 12:53:21 <Phantom_Hatter> Gregor-W, what questions?
03:57:39 <alise> 12:53:36 <Gregor-W> w.r.t. making Rosegarden talk to fluidsynth.
03:58:41 <cpressey> Useful! *and* shift+PgUp does nuzzingk
04:01:00 <oerjan> just PgUp for me
04:01:46 <cpressey> hey! that works
04:01:52 <oerjan> shift+PgUp instead scrolls up in the PuTTY scrollback
04:02:01 <cpressey> I was expecting it to be some horrible key combo
04:02:45 <cpressey> I re-give up on Rosegarden until I see Gregor again, because no advice I've seen makes sense
04:03:08 <zzo38> I added a metamacro command in Enhanced CWEB to retrieve the current section number.
04:04:40 <oerjan> cpressey: you can rebind keys to your heart's content anyhow (i vaguely recall i rebound Home and End to go top and bottom of scrollback instead of beginning/end of line)
04:05:02 <oerjan> *go to
04:06:48 <Sgeo> *hic*
04:06:58 <alise> Sgeo: Hic?
04:07:21 <oerjan> hic est hiccupus
04:07:32 * Sgeo is hiccupping (and NOT drunk. I don't know if *hic* applies to non-drunk hiccups, or if *hic* in the context of drunkenness isn't actually a hiccup in any sense)
04:07:49 <alise> NOT drunk with a capital N-O-T
04:08:07 <oerjan> Nearly Overdosed Totally
04:08:40 <cpressey> Nice and Overly Tipsy
04:09:16 * cpressey is NOT, at any rate
04:09:38 <cpressey> ftp://ftp.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de/pub/forster/aribas/examples/queens.ari <-- OK, so ARIBAS is basically Pascal with bigints. Big whee
04:10:25 <cpressey> and bigfloats and a bunch of built in MathSnazziness
04:11:39 <oerjan> var X : Humongous Integer;
04:17:20 <cpressey> It occured to me a while ago that there are so many buildings on this planet, even if I was somehow able to sleep in a different building every night, there is no way I would be able to sleep in all of them.
04:17:44 <alise> Deep.
04:21:16 <cpressey> Deep in a stupid way. My speciality.
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04:21:37 <alise> I feel sick; blargh.
04:25:31 <pikhq> cpressey: Unless you invent immortality.
04:25:49 <alise> And stop the building and destruction of all buildings.
04:25:58 <alise> And god I am so fucking tired and sick feeling and bed soon
04:26:38 <cpressey> "Arthur Dent? Arthur Phillip Dent? You are a complete git..."
04:26:53 <cpressey> etc.
04:26:57 <cpressey> alise: Go to bed
04:26:59 <alise> What a contextless quotation.
04:27:04 <alise> Oh, I see.
04:27:06 <cpressey> alise: It relates
04:27:10 <alise> Infinitely Prolonged.
04:27:15 <alise> cpressey: in a sec, in a sec
04:29:35 <oerjan> alise `seq` bed
04:30:03 <cpressey> Or I'll start posting links with a nonzero risk of making you feel more ill
04:31:26 <alise> oerjan: THAT MAKES NO SENSE
04:31:51 <alise> i need to burp or i will vomit
04:31:53 <oerjan> you think i'm treating you too strictly?
04:31:54 <alise> :|
04:32:03 <alise> oerjan: ...
04:37:51 <cpressey> http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=about
04:38:15 <cpressey> "[...] and also to help integrate other UNIX (text) processors."
04:38:37 <cpressey> The person behind this lives in a different world than I.
04:38:44 <alise> /create a functional "absolute" through the math sqr(x) operation
04:38:44 <alise> func_abs = .[ cascade .[ // this is the functional sequence operator
04:38:44 <alise> sqr // our square argument
04:38:44 <alise> radix_of( 2 ).extract // get the extract method of an instance of square root.
04:38:45 <alise> ]
04:38:47 <alise> ]
04:38:49 <alise> what?
04:38:51 <alise> what is that even fucking
04:38:53 <alise> that's fucking
04:38:55 <alise> you're
04:38:57 <alise> this language sucks
04:39:20 * cpressey claps in delight
04:43:29 <alise> fffffffffur
04:43:30 <alise> jsf
04:44:11 <cpressey> http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=facts has a comparison table where, under "Functional programming", only Falcon has a "yes"; Python, Perl, Lua, Javascript are all "no". Justification further down the page, tho I cannot make heads or tails of it.
04:44:33 <cpressey> Sorry, not Javascript -- Ruby.
04:44:57 <alise> this language is shit
04:48:07 <cpressey> But's it's called FALCON!!!
04:48:22 <cpressey> How kick-ass is THAT!!!
04:48:33 <alise> the language should be called Bear Wrestling
04:48:36 <alise> then it would be kick-ass
04:48:49 <alise> [cpressey adds Bear Wrestling to his list of esolang names to use]
04:49:15 <cpressey> Indeed, it is now in my "translation table."
04:49:25 <cpressey> Ruby? MatzLisp. Falcon? Bear Wrestling.
04:49:33 <alise> :D
04:49:44 <cpressey> There seems to be a "Bear" theme running through the really awful ones.
04:52:15 <oerjan> even the unbearable ones?
04:53:38 <cpressey> Rarr!
04:53:54 <cpressey> "I call Starfish the MapReduce of Ruby because they both do the same task: screw." -- http://tech.rufy.com/2006/08/starfish-is-mapreduce-for-ruby.html
04:54:30 <cpressey> Yes, I am trying to make alise even sicker so she will go to bed.
04:54:49 <alise> I call Starfish the Rabbit because they both do the same thing: screw.
04:55:18 <Sgeo> Tabular programming?
04:56:06 <Sgeo> Is a small library size supposed to be a _good_ thing?
04:57:19 <cpressey> Apparently not, for that, at least -- "This is our weak point; this is young project [...]"
04:58:45 <alise> Faaargilous and the going-to-beds
04:58:47 <cpressey> Oh! And of course Falcon is dual licensed, GPL/FPLL! And guess what FPLL stands for!
04:59:05 <alise> falcon public laconic license
04:59:12 <alise> falcon public locomotive license
04:59:15 <alise> falcon public lactating license
04:59:20 <alise> falcon public loser's license
04:59:48 <Sgeo> What's so bad about this language? Although I guess I should look at a sample
05:00:16 <alise> suddenly, sgeo finds a new favourite language
05:00:26 <cpressey> OH NO
05:00:29 <cpressey> What have I done?
05:00:55 <Sgeo> I still have yet to see a code sample
05:01:02 <alise> let us keep it that way let me bed myself
05:01:36 <alise> definitely arloo toolus
05:01:39 <Sgeo> That sounds wrong
05:02:18 <alise> yes, well, the only way i could bed myself in that sense involves time travel or cloning
05:02:26 <alise> and i hereby support any fantasies which involve time travel or cloning
05:02:26 <oerjan> cpressey: YOU HAVE DOOMED US ALL
05:02:46 <oerjan> or possibly just Sgeo
05:03:40 <oerjan> alise: also wormholes
05:03:49 <alise> also wormholes.
05:04:08 <oerjan> (i saw some discussion about that in reference to portal somewhere)
05:04:28 <Sgeo> Would kind of need to be in a cramped area, wouldn't it?
05:05:02 <oerjan> hm, i think there was a suggestion that portal portals were completely unmovable precisely to prevent this :D
05:05:02 <alise> i'm pretty sure self-penetration with portals would be impossible, the portals would have to move
05:05:09 <alise> anyway uh im turning off irc now okay
05:05:09 <alise> bye
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05:06:08 <Sgeo> Well, I've seen some basic code in the tutorial
05:06:15 <Sgeo> Nothing here that's really thrilling yet
05:06:36 <Sgeo> loop/end is a bit ugly
05:07:45 <Sgeo> enum seems uninspired
05:08:07 <Sgeo> But so far, these are not "This language is horrible" issues, just "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" issues
05:09:41 <Sgeo> The array stuff seems Pythonesque
05:10:15 <Sgeo> "To access the first or last element of an array, for example, in loops, arrayHead and arrayTail functions can be used. They retrieve and then remove the first or last element of the array."
05:10:24 <Sgeo> That seems... not useless, but poorly named
05:10:34 <Sgeo> So that they look useless, but they really change the array
05:11:25 <Sgeo> Well, there's a craptastic syntax called comma-less arrays
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05:11:39 <Sgeo> a2 = .[ 1 2 3 4 'a' 'b' var1 + var2 var3 * var4 .[x y z]]
05:11:45 <Sgeo> array = .[ somesym ,[1:2] ]
05:11:56 <Sgeo> The comma there's used to prevent it looking like somesym[1:2]
05:12:16 <Sgeo> This seems.. prone to programmer error, more so than baseline regular programming
05:13:20 <Sgeo> "Adding an item to a string causes the item to be converted to string and then concatenated."
05:13:25 <Sgeo> I guess it's not that strongly typed?
05:14:33 <Sgeo> "Contrary to strings, arrays and dictionaries, Lists are full-featured Falcon objects. "
05:15:01 <Sgeo> I took sleepiy pills
05:15:06 <Sgeo> I may fall asleep at any time
05:16:08 <oerjan> in that case, don't operate any heavy machinery
05:16:23 * Sgeo operates on oerjan
05:28:08 <zzo38> Has anyone published books licensed under the GNU GPL? How well does it work?
05:36:00 <zzo38> Would it be necessary to include a copy of the license in the appendix?
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06:59:04 <zzo38> Today I played Washizu mahjong at anime convention. Did you play mahjong and/or anime convention, today?
07:00:37 <pikhq> There was not an anime convention nearby, so no, I did not.
07:00:47 <pikhq> And I know not how to play mahjon.
07:00:49 <pikhq> Mahjong, even.
07:01:04 <zzo38> Do you want to learn?
07:01:26 <pikhq> Not particularly, ATM.
07:01:29 <pikhq> 'Tis midnight.
07:01:29 <zzo38> OK
07:02:19 <zzo38> Do you know if anyone has ever published books which are licensed under the GNU GPL?
07:02:32 <pikhq> Dunno.
07:04:13 <zzo38> Because, it is something I plan to do, "The ZZT Book". And then I want to send a free copy to Tim Sweeney and ask him to sell it, too. And include the CD or DVD with the source-codes and executables for many operating systems, in the back of the book.
07:04:45 <zzo38> Is this a good idea or is this bad idea, in your opinion?
07:05:08 <zzo38> The software is called "CZZT", however.
07:12:22 <MizardX> CD and DVD will increase the manufacturing costs. Better would be to have the content on some website, and use the URLs in the book.
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07:20:33 <zzo38> That is just in case you have no internet connection, you can order the copy with the CD or DVD included. But it could also have URLs, like "The source-codes is available at any of the following URLs: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/czzt/czzt-src.zip http://example.org/czzt/czzt-src.tar.gz ftp://example.org/czzt/czzt-src.0.1.tar.gz gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/5czzt/czzt-src.zip"
07:25:44 <zzo38> Although, the listing would include both the source for the current version and the URL that updates for the newest version automatic. It also requires the full text of the GNU GPL, written in the book, I think.
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07:39:00 <zzo38> The Most Ridiculous Patents: Snake Walker. Baby Bottom Art. Motorized Ice Cream Cone. Gerbil Shirt. Anti-Gravity Device.
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07:46:46 <zzo38> You see sound waves need a medium to travel in. If the air in this room was a vacuum, we would all be dead, but apart from that, we wouldn't be able to talk to each other.
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08:13:21 <augur> hmm
08:13:43 <augur> i think simple type checking is a case of cross serial dependencies
08:14:10 <augur> perhaps even more complex type checking
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12:24:09 <Vorpal> <cpressey> Vorpal: is this a permanent new identity for you, AnMaster? <-- perhaps
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13:57:21 <Vorpal> hm anyone know how to efficiently copy a single huge file over ethernet? scp doesn't nearly max out the capacity, and some simple tests shows that it isn't disk IO that is the bottleneck...
13:57:45 <Vorpal> huge = 40 GB or so
14:01:21 <fizzie> How about netcat? If you don't mind the encryption.
14:01:35 <fizzie> Or lack of it, anyway.
14:02:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, well, network is trusted yeah
14:02:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, will it create a sparse file, I strongly suspect that it may contain quite a few zero blocks... it's a disk image
14:02:59 <Vorpal> hm
14:02:59 <fizzie> I don't think it will, by default.
14:03:46 <Vorpal> hm
14:03:47 <fizzie> If you don't mind temporary space-wastage, you can just netcat it, and then "cp --sparse=always image.tmp image" it to make the holes.
14:04:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, I do mind that, since the target system doesn't have space for two copies :P
14:04:17 <Vorpal> ah rsync might be useful here, it seems to have sparse-stuff
14:04:25 <Vorpal> and I can do rsync without ssh here...
14:04:28 <Vorpal> since it is trusted
14:06:45 <fizzie> Yes, rsync should do sparsity right.
14:07:34 * Vorpal goes to set up rsync server on one side
14:07:46 <fizzie> It's a bit shame that dd doesn't have a "conv=sparse" option; it could do a bit of lookahead, and on large sequences of zeros, start counting them and then seek forward in the output file.
14:09:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, it is also annoying that you have to copy a file to make it sparse. As in, you can't make it sparse in place
14:11:23 <fizzie> A limitation of the userland-kernel API, I'd guess. You can only make sparse files by skipping over bytes with lseek and never writing there; there's no "hey, here's a block of zeroes, disappear them" thing. (And I guess it wouldn't be too practical to have the system try to find all zero-writes and sparsify them.)
14:11:38 <Vorpal> hm true
14:12:21 <fizzie> They could've added some sort of posix_fsparsify thing, since there's fallocate and fadvise and maybe other "advanced" things, too.
14:13:46 <fizzie> Oh, there's even a posix_madvise function that can tell the system if you're going to access *memory* in a sequential or random fashion, or tell it you're going to need some region in the near future. (Not that it necessarily does anything on any system, but it exists.)
14:15:39 <Vorpal> I know it exists
14:16:02 <Vorpal> presumably useful for mmaped files
14:19:03 <fizzie> Also seems that since 2.6.17 there's actually been a splice(2) syscall, to move data from one fd to another with as little copying as possible. (Since sendfile is limited to "from mmap-capable file to a socket" scenarios.)
14:20:11 <fizzie> Oh, but splice needs one of them to be a pipe. Heh.
14:21:19 <fizzie> It's also a bit funny how they try to keep syscall numbering backwards-compatible, resulting in:
14:21:23 <fizzie> fis@eris:~$ grep uname /usr/include/asm/unistd_32.h
14:21:23 <fizzie> #define __NR_oldolduname 59
14:21:23 <fizzie> #define __NR_olduname 109
14:21:23 <fizzie> #define __NR_uname 122
14:21:52 <fizzie> Presumably after the next incompatible uname change, 59 will be oldoldolduname.
14:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, so they needed to keep those the same, but read() and write() could be changed?
14:22:39 <fizzie> Have they made some incompetible changes to read/write, then?
14:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, oh, I thought you meant the x86-64 syscall numbers.
14:24:40 <fizzie> Oh, that. Well, I don't think there's any need to keep those in sync. But apparently they want programs/libs that still use the oldolduname to work properly.
14:25:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, it depends on how you break stuff though
14:25:45 <fizzie> It *was* a bit strange that "exit" had the prominent number 1 in 32-bit-land.
14:25:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, why is that?
14:26:03 <Vorpal> exit is quite an important call
14:26:21 <fizzie> I don't know, you only call it once, after all. :p
14:26:29 <fizzie> (Per process, that is.)
14:29:30 <fizzie> It is nice that you can load it into eax in just three bytes (xor+inc) instead of five (mov with 32-bit immediate).
14:30:02 <fizzie> I've sometimes wondered why there isn't a shorter "load a small number into a full 32-bit register" operation.
14:30:38 <fizzie> There's the sign-extending and zero-extending movsx/movzx, but those only load from memory.
14:31:58 <fizzie> (Okay, so it's four bytes with xor+mov into al, but still.)
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15:22:05 <alise> http://i.imgur.com/uqRyI.jpg
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15:24:43 <Mathnerd314> maybe it should just give directions to the nearest airport
15:24:56 <alise> i like how it just goes in a straight line
15:25:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Brilliant.
15:26:00 <alise> that's from japan btw in case it wasn't clear
15:26:13 <alise> to america
15:26:25 <Phantom_Hoover> Someone must try that course for real.
15:26:37 <alise> the kayaking part is difficult.
15:26:42 <alise> esp. keeping your car
15:28:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, you have no AMBITION.
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16:57:57 <alise> "Nordic / Scandinavian Redditors -- Do You Think Your Countries Are As Awesome As They Are Often Portrayed On Reddit?" Hellooooo /r/circlejerk
16:58:47 <oerjan> well if that _was_ from /r/circlejerk it would be appropriate there, surely
17:00:01 <alise> it wasn't - but it should have been there
17:00:18 <alise> as should, uh, a vast majority of the front page; why isn't there a classy timewaster any more?
17:00:42 <oerjan> "No we're not that awesome, although the rest of the world sucks even more"
17:00:57 <oerjan> (not an actual quote)
17:01:39 <alise> i'd like to live in a nordic country but that's because (a) I don't like hot weather and (b) they have fast internet, as much as (c) better sociopolitical climate than the UK
17:02:21 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, Nordic countries have hot summers IIRC.
17:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Britain just has fairly uniform cool, wet weather.
17:03:01 <alise> Not hot hot summers.
17:03:06 <alise> Depends where you are.
17:03:22 <alise> iirc 26 degrees is considered a heatwave in Norway; wasn't it, oerjan?
17:03:46 <oerjan> well i don't know about the technical definition :D
17:03:50 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, the summers here can be experienced with a woolen jumper on.
17:03:53 <oerjan> but it felt that way
17:04:11 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not this summer
17:04:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, I am probably insane.
17:04:42 <Phantom_Hoover> And you are, after all, in south England.
17:04:56 <alise> No -- I'm not.
17:04:59 <alise> What gave you that impression?
17:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, wait, you're not.
17:05:09 <alise> Hexham is north-east.
17:05:11 <Phantom_Hoover> A terrible grasp of English geography.
17:05:17 <Phantom_Hoover> I just googled it again.
17:05:20 <alise> :)
17:05:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I have a terrible grasp of Scottish, Irish and Welsh geography as well.
17:05:49 <alise> I have a terrible grasp of [...] geography.
17:06:02 <Phantom_Hoover> Where's Tanzania?
17:06:21 <alise> Near New Zealand.
17:06:28 <alise> ...wait.
17:06:32 <alise> I thought you said Tazmania.
17:06:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep, you're right about [...].
17:06:54 <augur> new warehouse 13 and eureka! :D :D :D
17:06:58 <alise> Aaaand
17:07:02 <alise> I forgot that New Zealand =/= Australia.
17:07:10 <alise> And that it's called Tasmania.
17:07:15 <alise> Worst. Thinko. Ever.
17:07:16 <Phantom_Hoover> I have, in the past, mistaken Leicester for Leinster.
17:07:36 <augur> alise: well, its SORT of near new zealand
17:07:42 <alise> augur: Yeah. SORT of.
17:08:00 <Phantom_Hoover> In the same way that Canada is near the US, and Scotland is near England.
17:10:28 <oerjan> um not if it's tanzania you're talking about
17:10:45 <oerjan> (that's near madagascar, of course)
17:11:58 <alise> tasmania
17:12:54 <alise> The A1 is INHABITED BY GNOMES
17:13:03 <oerjan> what is A1
17:13:19 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, the road?
17:14:05 <alise> Yes.
17:14:09 <alise> Also, the paper size.
17:14:24 <oerjan> well it should be big enough for a gnome
17:14:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what kind of gnomes?
17:15:09 <alise> Invariably variable gnomes.
17:15:38 <alise> ANSWER ME THIS: Why do music daemons suck?
17:15:38 <coppro> underpants gnomes
17:16:16 <alise> Wow, linking ffmpeg to libao is hideously difficult: http://nikolai.luthman.name/misc/queue.c
17:16:28 <alise> Almost enough to make me use libxine. ... almost.
17:16:30 <oerjan> alise: because they're actually succubi
17:16:37 <alise> Why isn't there a libmplayer?
17:16:40 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, dunno. All the great composers went to hell.
17:16:45 <alise> oerjan: you win
17:16:46 <Sgeo> Xine is considered bad?
17:16:51 <alise> Sgeo: awful
17:17:01 <Sgeo> o.O
17:17:54 <oerjan> hell is near tasmania. at least, they have devils both places.
17:19:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, no.
17:23:37 <Phantom_Hoover> It's obviously professional software development.
17:24:09 * oerjan sees no contradiction there
17:24:32 <oerjan> why can't they have professional software development near tasmania
17:26:37 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, not just near Tasmania.
17:27:00 -!- Gregor has joined.
17:27:09 <Gregor> pikhq: You're right, wildly insufficient FLACitude.
17:27:23 <alise> Don't give me none of that flakitude.
17:27:24 <oerjan> well they're all outsourced _now_, of course
17:27:27 <Gregor> My alternate recording of Op. 11 has FLAC. I should rerecord Op. 10 to add FLAC too.
17:27:47 <Gregor> ALSO: OMG Hulu just made my day again
17:28:03 <Gregor> I'm watching Saturday morning cartoons (Rocky and Bullwinkle) on Saturday morning!
17:28:25 <oerjan> but before that outsourcing craze started, say a hundred years ago, i doubt you'd find it much outside hell
17:28:37 <oerjan> (near tasmania, as already established)
17:28:50 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what about the native Tasmanians?
17:28:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Were they the developers?
17:29:03 <alise> Note to self: xfce4-panel sucks.
17:29:58 <Gregor> alise: I disagree.
17:30:17 <oerjan> as is well known, the native tasmanians were exterminated by the english invaders, so it's a bit hard to ask them now. well, i suppose you could find some remaining in hell, if you'd like to go there
17:30:19 <alise> Gregor: Okay; xfce4-panel sucks IF YOU'RE NOT USING ALL THE REST OF XFCE.
17:30:51 <Gregor> alise: OK, that I'll agree with :P
17:30:54 <Gregor> But XFCE is awesome :P
17:31:12 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, what software did they develop?
17:31:33 <alise> Want to make the background something that doesn't glare for attention since it uses your regular GTK+ background colours? LOL HAVE FUN MODIFYING YOUR THEME FILE AND FINDING IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONFIGURE ALL THE COLOURS
17:31:59 <alise> Gregor: xfce may be awesome but pekwm is more awesomerest.
17:32:22 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: how the hell should i know? i said they're all exterminated.
17:32:41 <oerjan> sheesh
17:32:49 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, so what software is written in hell these days?
17:32:57 <alise> all of it
17:33:16 <oerjan> lots of php and java, obviously
17:33:30 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, oh, that explains it.
17:33:55 <Phantom_Hoover> So Google is obviously trying to muscle in on hell's territory, so Oracle are suing them.
17:34:12 <Phantom_Hoover> Boycott Satanist software!
17:34:31 <alise> WHY ISN'T THERE A LIBMPLAYER.
17:35:13 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, poor design?
17:36:17 <Gregor> alise: There is, it's called FFMPEG :P
17:37:16 <alise> Gregor: Yeah, libavcodec can't actually output to an audio device; to do that, you need something like libao.
17:37:40 <alise> Gregor: Would you like to see the code sticking libavcodec and libao together?
17:37:40 <alise> Gregor: http://nikolai.luthman.name/misc/queue.c
17:37:47 <Gregor> Nope
17:37:51 <alise> NOW do you see why I want a libmplayer?
17:37:51 <Gregor> I would not like to see that.
17:37:59 <alise> Gregor: Protip: It's fucking ugly.
17:39:11 <alise> Oh, and I'd just use mpd, except it can't do something as fucking simple as "make a playlist out of the entire library and keep it updated".
17:39:32 <alise> I'd just use xmms2 except that all xmms2 clients are _shit_
17:40:49 <pikhq> libmplayer would be absolutely wonderful.
17:41:00 <alise> Yes.
17:41:03 <pikhq> I'd write an SDL GUI for it and VOILA.
17:41:16 <alise> I'd write a GTK+ GUI for it because SDL sucks for interfaces :P
17:41:21 <alise> Oh, for your phone.
17:41:27 <alise> I suggest selling it and buying some other phone.
17:41:31 <alise> Say, anything but a Palm phone.
17:41:34 <pikhq> alise: I spent nothing on it.
17:41:38 <Vorpal> ... eh bash just abort()ed
17:41:43 <Vorpal> I think
17:41:57 <Vorpal> wait, no it was just strange formatting of glibc double free
17:42:03 <Vorpal> missing the stack trace
17:42:06 <pikhq> (it's a contract phone, but I don't pay the phone bill, so.)
17:42:49 <alise> pikhq: MPlayer_Context *ctx = mplayer_create_context(); mplayer_set_ao(ctx, MPLAYER_AO_OSS); mplayer_play_async(ctx, "foo.ogg");
17:43:04 <alise> Or Something.
17:43:09 <pikhq> alise: Mmmm.
17:43:43 <pikhq> alise: Also: the UI is actually quite nice on here.
17:43:51 <pikhq> Thank God they stopped using Palm OS.
17:44:23 <alise> pikhq: Yes, it's really nice until you notice it's hideously slow, then you try any other phone and your jaw drops.
17:44:45 <alise> jwz soldiered with the Pre, the Pixi's big brother, for months before finally giving up and /buying an iPhone/
17:44:57 <Phantom_Hoover> jwz?
17:45:02 <pikhq> ... So I'm tempted to port Android to it...
17:45:37 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Jamie Zawinski, Netscape programmer, XEmacs (Lucid Emacs) programmer, now nightclub owner, genius.
17:45:47 <alise> You should probably already know who he is.
17:46:00 <pikhq> Thought the screenname was familiar.
17:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Was he the one who said that solving a problem with regexes yielded two problems?
17:46:53 <pikhq> alise: Homebrew on the Palm makes it much more usable. First things first, replace the damned kernel.
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17:47:38 <Phantom_Hoover> /o/
17:47:38 <myndzi\> |
17:47:39 <myndzi\> >\
17:47:43 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: He's the one that quoted it from someone else and then everyone decided he said it.
17:47:50 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, ah.
17:48:11 <alise> Wow, jwz.org has been "redesigned" (it's now in a sans-serif font and the page width is smaller).
17:48:20 <alise> Also the hexdump on the front page gives you a headache because it scrolls.
17:48:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: he also popularised the "Worse is Better" essay.
17:48:49 * Phantom_Hoover → food
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17:50:02 <pikhq> What's bizarro is that the Palm Pre ships underclocked by default...
17:50:08 <alise> For BATTERY!
17:50:35 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean: max CPU speed it'll run at is underclocked.
17:50:50 <alise> I think the original iPhone did that for BATTRAY.
17:51:01 <pikhq> It will only go "up" to 600 MHz, on a 1 GHz CPU...
17:51:56 <alise> The state of smartphones is rather dismal; the only acceptable ones are basically the high-end Android phones, and the iPhone -- ignoring the political bullshit, 4 still has a bunch of antenna issues and crap
17:52:02 <alise> And, of course, the political bullshit /matters/.
17:52:37 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:52:41 <alise> I've just stuck with my original iPhone and it's been "fine".
17:54:14 <alise> The Galaxy S seems quite appealing; Gregor has one, I think.
17:54:27 <Gregor> I have a Moment.
17:54:36 <alise> Can I have a Moment, please?
17:54:40 <alise> HRYUK HYUK HURTH
17:54:42 <Gregor> I need my hardware keyboard.
17:54:51 <alise> Who makes the Moment?
17:54:53 <pikhq> What's appealing is an Eee in smartphone form.
17:54:54 <pikhq> :P
17:54:55 <alise> (You do!)
17:54:58 <alise> (IN MY HEEAAAART)
17:55:01 <alise> pikhq: But the Eee is shit.
17:55:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, what's the political bullshit?
17:56:07 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Apple hates developers.
17:56:09 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: app store. closed source. Apple are fuckwits. etc.
17:56:18 <alise> the app store TOS is basically "1984 -- the programmer's edition!".
17:56:47 <pikhq> They seem to like making Ballmer seem reasonable when he chants "Developers developers developers".
17:57:08 <alise> Samsung Intercept, what an awesome phone name
17:57:15 <alise> INTERCEPT
17:57:27 <alise> "Droid X", "Droid 2", I detect a theme here.
17:58:00 <alise> Sooo, has any non-iPhone phone got a 960x640 IPS display yet?
17:58:04 <alise> No? Didn't think so ...
17:58:24 <alise> Come on, guys, just invest shit in your phones and you can make money :P
17:59:49 <pikhq> They hate money.
18:00:01 <pikhq> And love making bizarre decisions.
18:00:14 <pikhq> (Javascript. UI. Embedded device. WHY?)
18:00:32 <alise> Because it's WEB 7.4
18:00:48 <alise> ANYONE who knows Javascript and our insane custom system can write a terrible app! Anyone!
18:01:53 * Phantom_Hoover desperately wants a manual typewriter
18:02:10 <alise> I broke an electronic typewriter in under one day.
18:03:21 <alise> Banshee is such a piece of shit.
18:03:28 <alise> "iTunes: The GNOME edition!"
18:04:15 <alise> So close just to using DeaDBeeF here.
18:05:17 <alise> I <3 /dev/dsp
18:05:19 <alise> It's so cool!
18:05:44 <Phantom_Hoover> /dev/dsp is sound output?
18:06:03 <alise> Yes; for OSS-based systems, including OSSv4.
18:06:12 -!- alise has left (?).
18:06:12 <pikhq> It's also sound input.
18:06:15 -!- alise has joined.
18:06:29 <alise> In older OSS versions -- before 4 -- only one program could write to /dev/dsp at a time, thus monopolising sound.
18:06:39 <alise> But in 4, anyone can write to it and it automatically gets sent to the mixer.
18:06:51 <pikhq> alise: This was only true for devices without hardware mixing.
18:06:55 <alise> So you can do "cat /dev/urandom >/dev/dsp" and have other sound running too and it Just Works.
18:07:00 <alise> pikhq: True.
18:07:03 <alise> But still.
18:07:06 <pikhq> Which everything had when OSS was popularised...
18:07:16 <alise> Yeah, but did anything configure it properly?
18:07:17 <alise> Not really.
18:07:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
18:07:29 <pikhq> If there was hardware mixing then it "just worked".
18:07:35 * Phantom_Hoover starts catting everything into /dev/dsp
18:07:50 <pikhq> It only got to be a problem when cards got cheaper.
18:08:05 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You can cat WAVs there, though there's a blip of noise at the start when it tries to audioify the WAV header.
18:08:17 <alise> Catting MP3s and the like will just produce noise, obviously; it accepts raw PCM data.
18:08:17 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving).
18:08:37 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no, I mean /usr/bin/sbcl
18:08:44 <Phantom_Hoover> The static is quite interesting.
18:08:50 <pikhq> What's irritating is that ALSA's OSS emulation is still so retarded that writing to /dev/dsp monopolises sound.
18:10:16 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Try "sudo cat /dev/sd[abc...] >/dev/dsp".
18:10:26 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, no.
18:10:29 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Why not?
18:10:41 <Phantom_Hoover> It'd last forever.
18:10:43 <alise> The patterns can be very interesting; you can almost hear the disk structure.
18:10:45 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: So terminate it.
18:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> Ah, I'll try it.
18:10:46 <pikhq> C-c
18:11:00 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: The drive headers sound quite thoroughly interesting at parts, though there are bits of silence.
18:11:09 <alise> Smaller drives are probably better; e.g. USB sticks.
18:11:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, trying
18:11:18 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: You can also try specific partitions.
18:12:04 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, rather more interesting.
18:12:27 <Phantom_Hoover> It gives a rhythmic pulse for /home, after some noise at the start.
18:12:49 <alise> For /home?
18:12:52 <alise> How do you cat a directory?
18:12:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Separate partition.
18:12:59 <alise> Ah.
18:13:11 <Phantom_Hoover> So that I could switch to 64-bit easily.
18:14:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sudo cat /dev/mem >/dev/dsp
18:14:16 <alise> Yes, that does exactly what you think it does.
18:14:26 <alise> Fails after a bit though; "operation not permitted".
18:14:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Now that really is interesting.
18:15:21 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: If you can spit out sine waves, you can generate tones to /dev/dsp.
18:15:23 <pikhq> alise: /dev/kmem!
18:15:30 <alise> pikhq: "Bad address".
18:15:33 <pikhq> Aaaw.
18:15:51 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There's Brainfuck programs that play audio.
18:15:55 <pikhq> Via /dev/dsp
18:15:56 <pikhq> :)
18:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> "No such file or directory"
18:16:01 <Phantom_Hoover> For /dev/kmem
18:16:12 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Whaa?
18:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep.
18:21:55 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: pipe this to /dev/dsp:
18:21:59 <alise> import math
18:21:59 <alise> import sys
18:21:59 <alise> i = 0.0
18:21:59 <alise> while True:
18:21:59 <alise> sys.stdout.write(chr(round(math.sin(i/10)*100) + 100))
18:22:00 <alise> i += 0.1
18:22:03 <alise> cat | python >/dev/dsp
18:22:05 <alise> paste that in
18:22:06 <alise> ^D
18:24:10 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, sec
18:25:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: also:
18:25:35 <alise> import math
18:25:35 <alise> import sys
18:25:35 <alise> i = 0
18:25:35 <alise> while True:
18:25:35 <alise> sys.stdout.write(chr((i/3) % 256))
18:25:37 <alise> i += 1
18:27:27 <alise> pikhq: How can I make mplayer -vo caca output to the tty, not a new window?
18:32:28 * alise says "fuck it" installs deadbeef
18:34:12 <alise> *"fuck it",
18:37:58 <alise> http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/camera/SexAndSmartPhones.png Hmm.
18:38:15 <alise> http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/camera/SexAndSmartPhonesByAge.png
18:43:22 <alise> ...and of course deadbeef is /also/ inadequate because it can't just update a playlist of a directory. sigh
18:47:04 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:47:20 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
18:47:39 <alise> I cannot believe how rubbish this software is. And I'm actually trying it, rather than just dismissing it! :p
18:51:19 <Phantom_Hoover> You know, Star Control II has a very Lovecraftian feel about it.
19:01:23 <alise> pikhq: I stand corrected -- Ex Falso has MusicBrainz integration.
19:02:10 <alise> pikhq: Via a plugin.
19:03:50 -!- jcp has joined.
19:04:34 <pikhq> alise: Woots.
19:05:20 <alise> pikhq: Thus allowing you to look up the tags of an album with MusicBrainz, tweak the result, then have it rename them properly and move them to your music folder, all in one UI.
19:05:48 <pikhq> alise: Nice.
19:05:59 * alise also notes that Quod Libet, of which Ex Falso is a subproject, appears to be the only reasonable graphical music program that exists on Linux.
19:07:02 <pikhq> Hmm. Gentoo packages Quod Libet, but not Ex Falso seperately.
19:08:34 <alise> It probably includes Ex Falso.
19:08:40 <alise> Quod Libet is a damn good program anyway, so no harm :P
19:08:43 <pikhq> :P
19:08:45 <pikhq> It does.
19:09:05 <alise> pikhq: You may need to install a quodlibet-plugins type package, and possibly the Python MusicBrainz bindings, for it to appear in Ex Falso's plugin list.
19:09:30 * pikhq fetches quodlibet-plugins
19:09:40 <alise> http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1228
19:10:27 <pikhq> Aaaaand Dbus error.
19:10:32 <alise> pikhq: Ignore it.
19:10:35 <alise> pikhq: It works perfectly fine without DBus.
19:10:38 <alise> It's just checking if DBus is there.
19:10:47 <alise> "Who would win in a fight: the Enterprise or the Millenium Falcon? And NO, the correct answer is not "the audience". The correct answer is that this scenario is ludicrous and impossible!" -- T-Rex
19:11:40 <pikhq> alise: No, I mean, it *crashes* because of an error with DBus.
19:11:45 <pikhq> ERROR:dbus.proxies:Introspect error on :1.0:/org/freedesktop/Hal/Manager: dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.AccessDenied: Rejected send message, 1 matched rules; type="method_call", sender=":1.42" (uid=1000 pid=18506 comm="/usr/bin/python2.6) interface="org.freedesktop.DBus.Introspectable" member="Introspect" error name="(unset)" requested_reply=0 destination=":1.0" (uid=0 pid=14778 comm="/usr/sbin/hald))
19:11:54 <alise> pikhq: What ...
19:11:58 <alise> pikhq: I suggest disabling DBus.
19:12:24 <alise> pikhq: Seriously, that's some DBus/HAL bullshit, you'll never figure it out. Why do you have HAL?
19:12:35 <pikhq> I think it was enabled back from when I had KDE.
19:12:42 <pikhq> Now... No reason at all.
19:12:47 <alise> I suggest disabling HAL and then being happy.
19:13:50 <pikhq> I shall.
19:14:02 <pikhq> Victory!
19:14:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Don't disable HAL! He's just been given conflicting orders!
19:14:48 <alise> pikhq: After enabling the plugin and configuring it, right click files and select MusicBrainz lookup, btw.
19:15:28 <alise> pikhq: HOWSOEVER it appears that it doesn't use hashing or anything, just searching.
19:15:43 <alise> I am most thoroughly disappointed! Oh well, it's still good at everything that isn't MusicBrainz lookup.
19:17:00 <alise> Such as love.
19:17:47 <pikhq> :P
19:17:48 <alise> "Embed cover images into tags" THIS HAS ALWAYS MADE ME SOMEWHAT UNEASY
19:19:41 <alise> pikhq: Picard does have the issue of an utterly inscrutable interface, however.
19:20:47 <alise> pikhq: Good lord, Picard tags excessively. "performer:electric guitar". "musicbrainz_so_many_damn_things". "barcode". "asin". "albumartistsort".
19:21:35 <alise> "Use folksonomy tags as genre" *groan*
19:23:46 <pikhq> alise: Yes, it tags a lot.
19:24:18 <alise> pikhq: Any way to ... make it more conservative?
19:26:29 <alise> pikhq: But it takes a PLUGIN just to get the disc number in a separate field! Ha!
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19:39:55 <alise> GRAAAAR
19:47:34 <alise> pikhq: For some reason, quodlibet does not like the tag ~album~discnumber~discsubtitle.
19:47:39 <alise> I cannot find a single reason for this to be true.
19:48:05 <alise> Why? WHY?!
19:48:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:54:44 * pikhq has been fetching covers.
19:54:46 <pikhq> Whoo.
19:54:54 <alise> pikhq: Ex Falso can do that ... :P
19:55:10 <alise> pikhq: I remember the good old days, when iTunes had a flaw that allowed you to download 600x600 covers for shit.
19:55:20 <pikhq> alise: Yes, I've been doing that in Quod Libet.
19:55:23 <alise> Was lovely. There was a script to do it and all.
19:56:15 -!- relet has joined.
19:56:16 <pikhq> And Quod Libet seems to dislike the musicbrainz_albumid tag being different between two discs of albums.
19:56:26 <alise> It does.
19:56:27 <alise> I have two discs of the same album, and they don't get merged in the Album List.
19:56:27 <alise> Make sure they have the same name (i.e. without "(disc x)" on the end). If they are still not merged, they have different labelid or musicbrainz_albumid tags. If they have different label ID tags, delete the incorrect one. If they have different MusicBrainz album ID tags, add a labelid tag that is the same for both albums.
19:56:31 <alise> --FAQ
19:56:37 <alise> It's a bit reasonable, but also not.
19:57:16 <pikhq> It's quite annoying.
19:57:22 <alise> Yes.
19:57:26 <alise> You could just delete those tags. They're dumb.
19:57:35 <pikhq> I have been.
19:58:18 <alise> pikhq: BTW, take a look at ~/.quodlibet/current.
19:58:38 <alise> There's also ~/.quodlibet/control, which I gather accepts commands of some sort.
19:59:01 <alise> Yeah, echo next >~/.quodlibet/control works.
19:59:25 <pikhq> Hmm.
19:59:35 <alise> However, I still can't get it to show this particular column header. :-)
20:00:15 <alise> Or, yes I can! Hooray!
20:00:42 <alise> Now how does one...
20:00:52 <Vorpal> um, musicbrainz have release groups
20:01:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
20:01:04 <alise> *has, god dammit!
20:01:05 <Vorpal> for grouping multiple discs from the same album
20:01:15 <alise> Can you please just never mistake have/has again. As a general tip pick the opposite of what you always do.
20:01:17 <alise> >_>
20:01:59 <alise> pikhq: The best feature of Quod Libet: The release names come from the current Dinosaur Comic at the time of release.
20:02:18 <Vorpal> alise, you never complain when I use the right one, so that doesn't work.
20:02:29 <alise> Vorpal: you never use the right one
20:02:35 <Vorpal> and I know which one is the right, it is just that I forget to think about it.
20:02:58 <Vorpal> alise, and that statement is not true.
20:04:12 <alise> Hey, KDE redesigned their website. If only they redesigned KDE too.
20:04:26 <Sgeo> KDE4 doesn't count?
20:04:32 <alise> 4.5, wowzers; I wonder in which ways it's exactly identical to the previous version.
20:04:42 <alise> Ooh, looks like ALL THE WAYS!
20:05:38 <Sgeo> Maybe it will be less crashtastic? (Last time I used KDE was in 3.x on Kubuntu, so it's been a while)
20:05:52 <Sgeo> Qt is all C++ish :/
20:06:06 <alise> It doesn't crash. But it does suck.
20:08:32 <Sgeo> Well, crashiness was always my biggest problem with KDE
20:08:39 <Sgeo> Maybe I should try it again
20:08:39 <alise> Your hardware probably just sucks.
20:08:45 <alise> No.
20:08:46 <alise> It's crap.
20:09:05 * Sgeo continues to learn Falcon
20:09:12 <alise> Wow.
20:09:18 <alise> cpressey is laughing in his Internetless.
20:09:33 <alise> The one thing we single out for being *hopelessly terrible*, you start learning.
20:09:50 <Sgeo> I want to see how it's terrible
20:10:07 <alise> Suuure.
20:10:12 <pikhq> alise: Beautiful.
20:10:49 <alise> 21:08:07 <Sgeo> But so far, these are not "This language is horrible" issues, just "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" issues
20:11:01 <alise> Please never say "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" again.
20:11:02 <alise> Ever.
20:11:43 <alise> Actually, I think it would be pretty hard for a language to do that to any member in this channel, since we're all male.
20:12:27 <Sgeo> If the language were awesome enough, it would make me female
20:12:32 <Sgeo> Just so it could do that
20:12:59 <alise> I think Sgeo has secret desires he is not quite ready to admit openly to the world, so he encodes them in statements about programming languages.
20:13:23 * Sgeo doesn't actually want to be female
20:13:34 <alise> Your secret's safe with us.
20:18:09 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ nethack
20:18:09 <alise> bash: nethack: command not found
20:18:10 <alise> WHAT
20:18:11 <alise> :p
20:21:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
20:23:07 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, just telnet to NAO.
20:24:25 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: No, it's slow.
20:24:33 -!- Wamanuz has joined.
20:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, well, it's bearable if you use ^ or shift when moving through corridors.
20:26:11 <alise> I'd rather just get the Home Experience.
20:26:22 <Vorpal> <Sgeo> Well, crashiness was always my biggest problem with KDE <-- I never had KDE 3.5.x crash
20:26:48 <Vorpal> 3.0.x a few times iirc
20:26:48 <Sgeo> Various applications would crash
20:26:55 <Sgeo> Note that this was Kubuntu, so
20:27:52 <Vorpal> ah
20:27:56 <Vorpal> that could explain a lot
20:29:26 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:29:30 -!- Gregor-P has joined.
20:32:32 <alise> You know, I might just give up and install a shitty desktop environment.
20:33:59 * pikhq does some Replay Gain on it all... Mmm.
20:34:03 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:34:25 <alise> pikhq: Quod Libet actually uses album replaygain /except/ when shuffling, where it uses track replaygain. Which is awesome.
20:34:37 <alise> RANDOM QUOD LIBET FACTS, brought to you by alise.
20:34:39 <pikhq> alise: Yeah, that is actually really awesome.
20:34:53 <alise> Now if only it showed my custom column of insanity!
20:35:02 <pikhq> Use album ReplayGain when you would want it, and track ReplayGain when you would want it.
20:35:05 <pikhq> Awesome.
20:36:30 <Vorpal> what exactly is replaygain?
20:37:22 <alise> Vorpal: the semi-solution to the loundness war
20:37:39 <alise> Vorpal: basically, a metal track from the 80s is much quieter than a mild pop song from the 2000s
20:37:44 <alise> Vorpal: this is because of mixing trends etc.
20:37:53 <alise> Vorpal: replaygain calculates this, cleverly, restoring the dynamics across the ages
20:37:59 <alise> so the metal song will be louder than the pop song, no matter when they're from
20:38:17 <alise> album replaygain is replaygain applied to a whole album as a unit, rather than a track; this is so that the dynamics are stable across songs, and segues are retained
20:38:31 <Vorpal> alise, why not make a standard for recording level?
20:38:39 -!- tombom has joined.
20:38:39 <alise> ...
20:38:40 <alise> wow
20:38:42 <pikhq> And essentially it just does the volume-adjusting that you would do automatically.
20:39:07 <alise> Vorpal: I know you Swedes are totally down with socialism, but did you really just propose LAWS on MIXING MUSIC?
20:39:17 <pikhq> alise: The RIAA *used* to actually have such a standard.
20:39:26 <pikhq> It went by the wayside with the end of vinyl.
20:39:27 <alise> Yes ... the RIAA ... always the best organisation to imitate ...
20:39:37 <pikhq> This was when the RIAA wasn't entirely evil.
20:39:41 <pikhq> Just *largely* evil.
20:39:42 <pikhq> :P
20:39:44 <Vorpal> alise, is this thing able to handle that some music isn't using the full dynamic range? A quiet nocturne shouldn't be as loud as some heavy metal for example
20:39:55 <alise> Vorpal: yes, that is the whole point of it
20:40:06 <Vorpal> alise, neat, how does it figure that out?
20:40:10 <alise> Vorpal: "mathematics"
20:40:14 <alise> Replay Gain works by first performing a psychoacoustic analysis of an entire audio track to measure peak levels and perceived loudness. The difference between the measured perceived loudness and the desired target loudness is calculated; this is considered the ideal replay gain value (the target loudness of most Replay Gain utilities is 89 dB SPL — 6 dB higher than the Replay Gain specification and SMPTE recommendation[1]). Usually, the gain value and th
20:40:14 <alise> e peak value are then stored as metadata in the audio file, allowing Replay Gain-capable audio players to automatically attenuate or amplify the signal so that tracks will play at a similar loudness level. This avoids the common problem of having to manually adjust volume levels when playing audio files from albums that have been mastered at different levels. Should the audio at its original levels be desired (e.g., for burning back to hard copy), the meta
20:40:15 <alise> data can simply be ignored.
20:40:59 <Vorpal> hm
20:41:21 <pikhq> It's a bit of a hack to get around shitty mixing, but it *is* rather nice.
20:41:29 <Vorpal> "desired target loudness" being?
20:41:33 <alise> Even with good mixing, there'd still be variations due to personal taste.
20:41:40 <pikhq> alise: True, but much less so.
20:41:45 <alise> Vorpal: 89 dB (the standard is 6 dB lower but nobody goes by that)
20:41:50 <alise> Vorpal: of course, this is then adjusted by your volume control.
20:42:45 <pikhq> The idea being that you end up not having to fiddle with your volume settings so that you can hear stuff or not go deaf.
20:42:48 <Warrigal> /o/
20:42:48 <myndzi\> |
20:42:49 <myndzi\> /\
20:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Where's Gregor?
20:43:24 <Vorpal> alise, that doesn't seem to address the issue I mentioned above, if I shuffle music and I have some quiet piano music and some heavy metal, I probably *don't* want them to be played back at the same volume, while I probably want to compensate for the time they were recorded at
20:43:33 <Vorpal> or am I missing something important here?
20:43:38 <alise> Vorpal: that is exactly what it does
20:43:43 <alise> the piano music will be quieter
20:43:48 <alise> no matter what decade the two were mixed at
20:44:05 <alise> the stupid thing you are thinking of is called "volume normalisation" etc. and it is dumb; ReplayGain is not that
20:44:05 <Vorpal> hum. Is that from the "psychoacoustic analysis" stuff?
20:44:08 <alise> pretty much
20:44:19 <alise> I don't understand the mathematics behind it; I only know that it works well.
20:44:49 <Vorpal> so we just moved the issue to a black box called "psychoacoustic analysis". Fun :)
20:44:59 <alise> Uh, what?
20:45:03 <alise> You use it and it solves the problem.
20:45:06 <Vorpal> alise, right
20:45:07 <pikhq> This is a common thing, though.
20:45:13 <alise> Maybe you don't understand it, I don't for instance.
20:45:16 <pikhq> It's part of the functioning of all lossy audio codecs.
20:45:17 <pikhq> :)
20:45:19 <alise> But it's not like you can't just check.
20:45:27 <alise> pikhq: but replaygain is NOT lossy, mind
20:45:41 <alise> Vorpal: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/contents.html
20:45:44 <alise> Vorpal: you can read the spec :P
20:45:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, okay. It just seems like some kind of black magic being able to tell how loud some music really is.
20:46:02 <alise> btw
20:46:07 <alise> radio replaygain = track replaygain
20:46:10 <alise> audiophile replaygain = album replaygain
20:46:13 <alise> the spec uses older terms
20:46:22 <alise> and pretend the desired volume level is 6 dB higher than it says to match tools
20:46:43 <alise> Vorpal: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calculating_rg.html
20:46:44 <Vorpal> alise, can in a bit, I'm doing heavy lifting of data atm.
20:46:46 <alise> Vorpal: there's the how-it-works
20:46:55 <Vorpal> opening browser atm would be suicidal.
20:47:17 <Vorpal> well, lynx would probably work
20:47:24 <alise> it will work with lynx
20:48:48 <alise> incidentally, the 83 dB SPL level is probably better than the 89 dB level used by tools, but it doesn't matter since you can just use your volume control
20:48:55 <alise> not sure why tools differ from the spec, but they all do, universally
20:49:09 <pikhq> Vorpal: BTW, most of what it does is recognise that things are too *loud* and make them more quiet. It won't actually adjust properly-mixed things too much.
20:49:20 <Vorpal> alise, anyway, wrt "LAWS on MIXING MUSIC": no. No one has to follow Red Book standard either. There is no law forcing that,
20:49:24 <Vorpal> s/,/./
20:49:31 <Vorpal> err, the last ,
20:50:17 <alise> well i agree that recommendations would be good, but there's always an element of personal taste
20:50:39 <Vorpal> pikhq, anyway, isn't the peak on non-classical recordings these days usually something like 0.01 dB from max?
20:50:53 <alise> Vorpal: pop recordings now clip
20:50:55 <alise> all of them
20:51:00 <Vorpal> alise, ... wtf
20:51:04 <Vorpal> that's just stupid
20:51:09 <pikhq> Particularly when lossy-compressed.
20:51:11 <alise> Vorpal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/GiveItAwayLoudnessComparison.png
20:51:18 <pikhq> ReplayGain makes it actually clip less.
20:51:20 <alise> Vorpal: on top: 1991 mastering of "Give it Away", by Red Hot Chili Peppers.
20:51:23 <alise> Vorpal: on bottom, 2003 mastering.
20:51:27 <alise> Vorpal: note the incessant clipping.
20:51:42 <Vorpal> alise, will check that later, lynx can't do it.
20:52:00 <Vorpal> alise, is it clipped on CD too?
20:52:08 <alise> Vorpal: imagine a constant clip; now imagine very slight, occasional dips down to maybe 0.1 dB less
20:52:13 <alise> Vorpal: yes
20:52:19 <alise> Vorpal: those images are from the cd
20:52:34 <Vorpal> why... that just means the sound is distorted...
20:52:43 <pikhq> That is the *actual mixing*.
20:52:56 <alise> Vorpal: Because it sounds better in cars.
20:52:58 <alise> And on the radio.
20:53:01 <Vorpal> alise, it does?
20:53:04 <alise> The listener never misses a single thing. It's LOUD!
20:53:06 <alise> Vorpal: Well, no.
20:53:11 <alise> Vorpal: But it does to idiots.
20:53:19 <alise> Vorpal: Otherwise it's "too quiet"; i.e. has dynamic range.
20:53:27 <pikhq> The irony being that it's a moot point on radio stations, anyways.
20:53:40 <pikhq> Since the radio will actually do the damned limiting, anyways.
20:53:43 <Vorpal> alise, if I want louder I just increase whatever volume control(s) my playback device has
20:53:54 <pikhq> Generally with better (non-clipping) settings.
20:54:00 <Vorpal> hm
20:54:25 <Vorpal> why clip it? Why not just compress the dynamic range?
20:54:37 <Vorpal> in cars that would actually be a useful feature.
20:54:43 <alise> Vorpal: they compress it to maximum volume.
20:54:44 <pikhq> Because setting the compression to clipping is "louder".
20:55:10 <Vorpal> argh
20:55:19 <pikhq> And louder is better!
20:55:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Stupid idea: a CAS written in Coq.
20:55:32 <alise> Otherwise people will hear the other peoples' music and not ours!!!
20:55:34 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: not stupid
20:55:35 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: well, relatively
20:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, for a given value of "stupid".
20:56:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Until I fond out how codata works, I refuse to acknowledge its uses.
20:56:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, in cars a non-clipping dynamic range compression feature would actually be nice. Some music I like have huge dynamic range, in cars it needs to be compressed to always be audible without being clipped. Too loud isn't nice either
20:56:27 <Phantom_Hoover> s/fond/find/
20:56:34 <Vorpal> so that would be useful
20:56:48 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: sec
20:56:50 <Vorpal> clipping is just.... stupid
20:56:53 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: i'll find you a tutorial
20:57:24 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/html/Coinductive.html
20:57:25 <Vorpal> pikhq, when I checked some classical cds I have, they generally peak at -2.3 dB or such for modern ones, and even lower for older ones
20:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, I know that it has something to do with eliminating from the set of all possible things rather than building from nothing, but that's all. And probably inaccurate.
20:57:42 <alise> Vorpal: Let me just say that I wish the sound engineers who work on classical music would work on other music too.
20:57:45 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess people listening to classical would never accept clipped
20:57:50 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: that's basically wrong
20:57:52 <Vorpal> alise, indeed
20:57:52 <alise> Phantom_Hoover: http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/html/Coinductive.html
20:57:58 <Phantom_Hoover> alise, will read.
20:58:04 <alise> well it might be right in some sense
20:58:06 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, classical gets mixed properly.
20:58:06 <alise> but it's not useful
20:58:38 <pikhq> alise: Many of the sound engineers actually get *forced* to do the loudness thing.
20:58:43 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess that is because those "idiots" alise referred to above never listen to classical
20:58:58 <pikhq> alise: By the band and/or the managers.
20:59:08 <alise> i'm imagining classical booming from a convertible car now
20:59:16 <alise> rich shithead teenager inside
20:59:24 <alise> bothering everyone on the street :D
21:00:23 <Vorpal> alise, I listened to classical while in car. The problem is that it has too much dynamic range a lot of the time. So either you don't hear the quiet parts, or you hear them but your ears get destroyed from the loud parts
21:00:40 <alise> Vorpal: Yes, cars should have a built-in compression system.
21:00:41 <Vorpal> alise, so a compression button in the car stereo would be nice, which does it without clipping
21:00:47 <Vorpal> alise, exactly
21:01:14 <alise> pikhq: what's the quality of the cover art on musicbrainz like?
21:01:16 <alise> pikhq: crap?
21:01:24 <pikhq> alise: Random.
21:01:47 <alise> i'll stick to exfalso/quodlibet then
21:01:51 <alise> for cover art
21:01:59 <pikhq> Yuh.
21:02:31 <Vorpal> alise, personally I never felt a need for cover art
21:02:36 <alise> I might have to write a script that strips *sort, asin, barcode, musicbrainz_*, organization, performer*, and releasecountry from files
21:02:42 <alise> and reduces date to a year
21:02:47 <alise> Picard is crazy with its tags
21:02:54 <alise> Vorpal: it's just decoration. some cover art is very nice
21:03:01 <pikhq> It's nice that it's automatic, but it *is* a bit over-the-top.
21:03:38 <Vorpal> alise, hm.
21:03:48 <alise> hell, the cover of "The Dark Side of the Moon" has become iconic
21:04:14 <pikhq> As has "Abbey Road".
21:04:14 <Vorpal> alise, having musicbrainz_ id tags is useful, makes it easy to fetch updates to the various tags
21:04:23 <alise> Vorpal: basically cover art is there for the same reason as any other packaging, choice of typefaces, whatever... the extended "release" beyond the music
21:04:26 <alise> & included photographs, etc
21:04:38 <alise> as opposed to just releasing an undecorated cd in a case with no markings
21:04:55 <alise> even band names, album titles, track titles are aesthetic decisions in this way
21:05:40 <alise> I wish this laptop had better speakers.
21:06:48 <alise> Okay, if I don't find a decent panel program soon I'm just going to install a DE.
21:08:44 <Vorpal> heh
21:09:59 <alise> Is autopickup good or bad? I forget.
21:12:30 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:12:49 <alise> Hi ais523.
21:12:52 <alise> ais523: is autopickup good or bad?
21:14:19 <ais523> alise: in NetHack?
21:14:28 <ais523> good, but only if you change the settings from the insane defaults to sane values
21:14:43 <alise> Is there a quick line to do that with?
21:14:50 <alise> I'm getting a friend set up to play Nethack and I've forgotten everything myself.
21:15:28 <ais523> in the RC file: OPTIONS=pickup_types:/="$?
21:15:39 <alise> Okay.
21:15:41 <ais523> or in-game, you can do it via pickup_types in the options, turn on the same set of item types
21:15:51 <alise> OPTIONS=boulder:0, decgraphics, color, autodig, !cmdassist, norest_on_space, pickup_types:/="$?
21:15:53 <alise> That reasonable?
21:16:13 <ais523> isn't it !rest_on_space?
21:16:23 <alise> Apparently not ...
21:16:29 <ais523> also, autodig can be a bit dubious at times, especially if you aren't used to it
21:16:34 <ais523> and OK
21:16:38 <alise> Hmm, wait, it is !rest_on_space.
21:16:39 <alise> Silly wiki.
21:16:56 <alise> OPTIONS=boulder:0, decgraphics, color, !cmdassist, !rest_on_space, pickup_types:/="$?
21:17:01 <alise> Wait, it's normally off.
21:18:24 <alise> ais523: is there any way to choose what pet you start with?
21:18:33 <ais523> pettype:dog
21:18:41 <ais523> but it has to be a legal one for the class
21:18:48 <alise> valkryies can do either right?
21:18:50 <ais523> yep
21:19:32 <ais523> alise: I'm working on my own NetHack fork atm, incidentally
21:19:49 <ais523> (besides, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't do cat/dog at random, given that they're basically identical)
21:20:40 <alise> Personal preference!
21:27:11 <alise> ais523: do you know of a good nethack tutorial i can point him to now it's set up?
21:27:19 <alise> i'm not nearly a good enough player to teach him
21:27:29 <ais523> I'm aware that there's a reasonably good one, but I've forgotten what it's called
21:27:32 * ais523 tries to find it again
21:28:02 <ais523> I think it might be http://www.melankolia.net/nethack/nethack.guide.html
21:28:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:28:20 <ais523> (it's written for 3.4.1, but all the changes since have been bugfixes so they don't affect a beginner's tutorial)
21:28:37 <ais523> it doesn't list the controls thoug
21:28:38 <ais523> *though
21:28:42 <ais523> which are pretty important
21:28:44 <alise> ais523: yeah, basic controls would help
21:29:25 <ais523> you're meant to read the manual, but it's a) not very good, b) written by ESR
21:31:55 <ais523> here's a quick summary off the top of my head: 12346789 or yuhjklbn = move or fight; o to open doors; i to view inventory; aqrzwWPt use items; RT unequip items; < and > use stairs
21:32:08 <ais523> also, use < and > to navigate through menus, and . to select things at a "which square?" screen
21:33:48 <ais523> random fact: although NetHack players overwhelmingly tend to be male, both of the major spoiler sites I know are run by women
21:34:01 <alise> http://strategywiki.org/wiki/NetHack/Controls
21:34:05 <alise> this seems to be an excellent, if verbose, control reference.
21:34:36 <ais523> I've never seen that before
21:34:40 <ais523> but yes, it looks good
21:34:43 * ais523 checks it for truth
21:34:45 <alise> what's the method to quit without dying? i.e. save
21:36:20 <alise> i've forgotten everything :x
21:36:26 * ais523 finds and fixes an error
21:36:27 <ais523> and S
21:36:46 <ais523> (S is save and quit; #quit is delete save file and quit)
21:36:50 <alise> right
21:37:39 <alise> "Velkommen ehird, welcome to NetHack!" How redundant.
21:37:48 <alise> Can you change /your/ name?
21:38:43 <ais523> -u on the command line
21:38:55 <ais523> as in, nethack -u TAEB (which I used to use quite a lot)
21:40:18 <alise> So is cmdassist ever actually useful?
21:40:25 <alise> I'm wondering if I've done him a disservice by telling him to turn it off.
21:40:47 <alise> ais523: NAME= also works btw
21:41:10 <alise> thusly i am alise now as far as nethack is concerned
21:41:33 <ais523> cmdassist only triggers in two situations: trying to type ^D rather rather than control-D, and pressing a meaningless key in a pick-any-square targeting screen
21:41:41 <alise> ah
21:41:44 <alise> Woo decgraphics
21:41:47 <ais523> the second case is more harmful than useful, because there's a bug in it that cancels the entire action
21:41:49 <alise> They are good ... I think
21:41:51 <alise> (Are they good?)
21:42:07 <ais523> yes
21:42:19 <ais523> either DEC or IBM is better than the standard in every way, if it works on your terminal
21:42:27 <ais523> except that other people watching you might not understand the control codes
21:43:10 <alise> IBM doesn't work with xterm, but DEC does
21:43:39 <alise> A door that opens onto nothing. How delightfully pointless.
21:44:02 <alise> ais523: can you disable "You displaced [pet]."?
21:44:04 <alise> it's really bothersome
21:44:14 <ais523> not without turning off most of the messages in the game
21:44:24 <alise> damn
21:44:28 <alise> i bet there's a Patch For That
21:44:37 <ais523> why does it bother you that much?
21:44:38 <alise> *There's A Patch For That
21:44:42 <ais523> generally, you don't do a lot of displacing
21:44:42 <alise> ais523: i keep displacing Fluff :D
21:44:49 <alise> well in cramped situations i do
21:44:59 <alise> am i fucked if i can't get myself to use the diagonal movement keys?
21:45:08 <ais523> not most of the time
21:45:16 <ais523> but they do help quite a lot every now and then
21:45:29 <alise> i'd use numpad to get over that but i have none, ha
21:45:31 <ais523> going down diagonal corridors twice as fact, etc
21:45:39 <ais523> meh, yubn are in pretty obvious places
21:45:44 <ais523> just look at where they are relative to the h
21:45:55 <alise> ais523: if it ever becomes truly necessary i'll probably be thinking enough to be able to think about what direction to use, anyway
21:45:58 <alise> and for normal movement it shouldn't matter
21:46:04 <ais523> (I suppose you're leaving your right hand on jkl; rather than hjkl like I do?)
21:46:28 <alise> No, I leave my right hand on hjkl. Why wouldn't you?!
21:46:43 <alise> I don't use the home row positions, so I have no instinctive desire to rest on jkl;.
21:47:19 <alise> ais523: is there an autoopen :D
21:47:28 <ais523> alise: I wrote that into AceHack this morning :)
21:47:39 <alise> that's a crap name, you should change it :D
21:47:54 <Vorpal> I can't figure this out, windows VM thinks the disk is unformatted, same disk attached to a linux vm thinks it contains a proper NTFS partition
21:48:03 <Vorpal> that's just crazy
21:48:06 <ais523> I suspect Linux is correct here
21:48:15 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm 99% sure it is
21:48:19 <Vorpal> ais523, but why isn't windows seeing it
21:48:22 <ais523> (likewise, if they believed the other way round, I'd suspect Windows was correct)
21:48:36 <Vorpal> ais523, I need it visible from windows
21:48:38 <alise> ais523: disagreed
21:48:49 <alise> Vorpal: i bet it starts off ntfsy, but then has some corruption
21:48:59 <alise> windows, being the one "natively" supporting ntfs, catches this
21:49:04 <alise> while linux does not, having more rudimentary support
21:49:05 <alise> possibly.
21:49:08 <ais523> what about fscking it from inside Linux?
21:49:18 <Vorpal> ais523, is there ntfsfsck?
21:49:22 <Vorpal> I can't find it here at least
21:49:30 <alise> it's more likely to be fsck.ntfs3g
21:49:31 <alise> or something
21:49:46 <Vorpal> hm
21:50:00 <ais523> I don't have a fsck for NFS
21:50:04 <Vorpal> that doesn't exist
21:50:07 <Vorpal> ubuntu suggests:
21:50:09 <Vorpal> Command 'fsck.nfs' from package 'initscripts' (main)
21:50:14 <ais523> *NTFS
21:50:16 <Vorpal> as the only alternative
21:50:22 <ais523> (I /do/ have a fsck for NFS)
21:50:32 <alise> ais523: call it WorkHack
21:50:35 <alise> ais523: net-work
21:50:38 <Vorpal> I can't chkdsk it either it seems
21:50:42 <ais523> alise: well, lots of people know the name know
21:50:46 <alise> ais523: but it's crap! :D
21:50:50 <ais523> I like it
21:50:56 <alise> you're WRONG
21:51:01 <alise> and you should FEEL BAD
21:51:13 <Vorpal> ais523, and ntfs3g dislikes opening it, it claims it needs to be chkdsked under windows first
21:51:18 <Vorpal> -_-
21:51:18 <ais523> ah
21:51:25 <alise> Vorpal: it's invalid
21:51:28 <alise> probably.
21:51:36 <alise> try head(1)ing the drive and seeing if the headers are right :D
21:51:47 <Vorpal> alise, I can get data out of it using the old ntfsls tools and such
21:51:55 <alise> ais523: You have a sad feeling for a moment, then it passes.
21:51:57 <alise> ais523: duuuuude
21:52:00 -!- alise has left (?).
21:52:03 -!- alise has joined.
21:52:07 <Vorpal> alise, your pet died
21:52:08 <ais523> it happens
21:52:09 <alise> ais523: i was walking down a regular corridor
21:52:10 <alise> on the first level
21:52:14 <alise> how cosmically unfair is that?!
21:52:16 <ais523> most likely a trap
21:52:19 <alise> fuck that, I'm restarting, I want my Fluff
21:52:26 <ais523> oh, your mistake was calling your pet Fluff
21:52:31 <alise> XD
21:52:32 <alise> wat
21:52:43 <ais523> (NetHack community: "Fluffy" is the standard name for a pet destined to die to a trap in the first few seconds)
21:52:48 <ais523> (there is no in-game evidence for this)
21:52:56 <alise> well i called it fluff, not fluffy, so THERE
21:54:21 <alise> ais523: are there any cutesy, stereotypically-cat-like names that /aren't/ cursed?
21:54:44 <ais523> I use "Tabby", and it seems to work quite well
21:54:51 <ais523> but really, it's all down to RNG capriciousness
21:55:18 <alise> but if i stick with fluffy, I'll have the horrible feeling that i've cursed it to a premature death for no fault of its own.
21:56:59 <alise> http://petrix.com/catnames/
21:57:12 <alise> disappointing lack of cute names
21:57:28 <alise> i'll call it felix
21:58:21 <alise> i keep removing nethack's record of dead characters because it's embarrasing
21:58:24 <alise> am I a bad person?
21:58:35 <alise> *embarrassing
22:00:14 <alise> I need chunkier keys to avoid mistypes
22:00:21 <ais523> it seems a little pointless, really
22:00:29 <ais523> most people consider that a "high score table"
22:00:29 <alise> what, removing the file?
22:00:32 <ais523> yep
22:00:37 <alise> yeah, it's pretty much obsessiveness that causes me to do it :P
22:01:16 <alise> ais523: Hey, my boulders are showing up as `, not 0.
22:01:30 <ais523> interesting
22:01:36 <ais523> try writing the boulder option as BOULDER=0
22:01:40 <ais523> some of the options are weird like that
22:02:42 <alise> oh, that's the problem
22:02:45 <alise> BOULDER= is for the ascii code
22:02:48 <alise> boulder:0 gives the correct thing
22:02:52 <alise> how stupidly inconsistent
22:03:32 <ais523> I didn't design the RC file format
22:03:34 <pikhq> alise: Say, do you have any idea how ReplayGain metadata and MP3GAIN interact in ReplayGain-supporting players?
22:03:44 <alise> ais523: fix it in NotAcheHack :P
22:03:46 <alise> pikhq: probably badly
22:03:50 <pikhq> Alas.
22:03:51 <alise> pikhq: i suggest not using mp3gain
22:04:02 <ais523> alise: I deleted most of the options
22:04:06 <pikhq> alise: MP3GAIN for the purposes of devices that don't support ReplayGain.
22:04:08 <alise> f - a scroll labeled PRIRUTSENIE.
22:04:10 <alise> Yaay
22:04:12 <alise> ais523: why?
22:04:14 <alise> ais523: reasonable defaults?
22:04:15 <ais523> although they're still in the RC file, for people who care
22:04:19 <pikhq> I'm going to have to create a fairly *complex* exporting script, aren't I?
22:04:19 <alise> pikhq: just use mp3gain only
22:04:20 <ais523> and yes, because reasonable defaults
22:04:22 <alise> pikhq: or dump those files
22:04:46 <alise> ais523: ugh, what's the command to see the last message again?
22:04:57 <ais523> control-P
22:05:08 <alise> Noises in the distance -- that means enemies, yes?
22:05:14 <alise> Well, monsters.
22:05:41 * pikhq shall definitely need to write a music exporter
22:05:58 <ais523> alise: fighting, more specifically
22:06:07 <alise> ais523: On the first level?!
22:06:08 <ais523> so it's nearly always a sign that your pet decided to brutally kill something
22:06:13 <alise> ah.
22:06:18 <alise> well he is wondering off
22:06:20 <alise> (do they have genders?)
22:06:33 <ais523> alise: yes, but they're impossible to determine without looking at the memory or something
22:06:46 <ais523> there was a huge debate in #nethack several months ago about how to determine the gender of your pet cat
22:06:47 <ais523> in the end, we gave up
22:06:51 <alise> yay grid bugs
22:06:55 <alise> my favourite type of grid bug
22:07:02 <ais523> grid bugs cannot move diagonally
22:07:12 <alise> yes, they are my favourite type of grid bug
22:07:31 <pikhq> Anyways. Mmm, music.
22:07:40 <alise> whaa? this first level appears to have no downstairs
22:07:42 <alise> pikhq: Quite.
22:07:56 <alise> oh, no
22:07:58 <alise> it's just a huge first level
22:07:59 <ais523> alise: they're probably near a secret door somewhere; try searching the walls near suspiciously empty parts of the map
22:09:51 <alise> ais523: behold the gigantic level 1: http://imgur.com/P1Khd.png
22:10:12 <alise> and no, i have no idea where felix is
22:10:18 <alise> other than that he's on a rampage
22:10:24 <ais523> that's not /that/ ridiculous
22:10:33 <alise> oh, there e is
22:10:50 <alise> ais523: what is up with doors locked from both sides
22:10:59 <ais523> doors lock symmetrically in NetHack
22:11:04 <alise> yes
22:11:05 <ais523> just like many sorts of RL locks
22:11:08 <alise> still
22:11:20 <alise> actually, what kind of a dungeon is this anyway?
22:11:53 <alise> ais523: i should just s a lot to find the downstairs, right?
22:12:00 <ais523> yep
22:12:10 <ais523> use 20s in order to do 20 searches in a row, it saves on typing
22:12:14 <ais523> and search near empty areas of the map
22:12:23 <ais523> like that bit in the middle, with the suspicious dead-end corridor leading towards it
22:12:27 <alise> ais523: i just did that and became hungry
22:12:28 <alise> thx man :P
22:12:34 <ais523> heh
22:12:40 <alise> which bit in the middle?
22:12:49 <alise> the one with the "# #####" formation?
22:12:57 <ais523> northeast of there
22:13:09 <alise> i have a food ration, should prolly eat that
22:13:39 <ais523> where there's a length-2 corridor in the middle of nowhere
22:14:02 <ais523> after a while, you learn NetHack's map generation algo, it doesn't generate the sort of corridors around there without a secret door, normally
22:14:50 <alise> Uhh, how are goblin corpses, nutritionally?
22:14:56 <alise> I should probably google this stuff.
22:15:09 <ais523> alise: /msg PinoBot #!info name=goblin
22:15:25 <ais523> 100, it seems
22:15:30 <alise> Okay, I meant more poisonousnessly than nutritionally.
22:15:30 <ais523> for a comparison, food rations are 800
22:15:41 <alise> Ehh, I'll let felix eat it.
22:15:44 <ais523> and goblins are fine
22:15:49 <Vorpal> aha, ntfs-3g gave some usable error
22:15:53 <ais523> (PinoBot lists corpse danger too)
22:15:54 <Vorpal> a very very wtf error though
22:16:04 <Vorpal> "partition is smaller than NTFS"
22:16:07 <Vorpal> that makes no sense
22:16:11 <Vorpal> hm
22:16:22 <alise> Vorpal: smaller than ntfs minimum
22:16:23 <ais523> the filesystem is larger than the partition?
22:16:35 <Vorpal> alise, well yeah I'm pretty sure 40 GB isn't
22:16:40 <ais523> alise: found the stairs yet?
22:16:41 <Vorpal> ais523, seems so
22:16:48 <alise> ais523: i searched in the place you said and found some more dead-end corridor
22:16:55 <ais523> haha
22:16:57 <ais523> did you search there too?
22:17:00 <alise> yep
22:17:00 <alise> nothing
22:17:03 <ais523> typical
22:17:15 <ais523> check under the boulder in the northwest room
22:17:20 <alise> how do you give corpses to pets again?
22:17:28 <ais523> throw them; or just let the pet walk onto the square
22:18:04 <alise> "The corpse misses Felix."
22:18:21 <Vorpal> ais523, a difference of 236749891 according to the sector ntfs-3g claims and that mbr claims
22:18:31 <alise> ais523: felix does not seem to be hungry.
22:18:33 <ais523> alise: yep, it'll eat it from the square
22:18:40 <ais523> but yes, it's possible for a pet to not be hungry
22:18:42 <alise> ais523: it picked up the newt then dropped it; ignored the goblin
22:18:46 <ais523> also, it won't eat dangerous corpses
22:18:54 <ais523> the newt must have been too old to eat safely
22:18:57 <Vorpal> 112 GB?!
22:18:57 <alise> hmm
22:18:59 <ais523> only fresh coprses are edible
22:19:02 <Vorpal> that partition has never been that big
22:19:04 <alise> is the goblin ok?
22:19:06 <alise> meh
22:19:10 <alise> I'll just dump the corpses
22:19:11 <ais523> I doubt it, unless you killed it recently
22:19:35 <alise> ais523: ····│ ###
22:19:36 <alise> worth searching here?
22:19:51 <ais523> maybe
22:20:00 <ais523> it'd have to be a very small room to fit there
22:20:03 <ais523> but it's theoretically possible
22:20:14 <alise> │······│ ┌───────────┐ 0########################·········│
22:20:14 <alise> │······│ │···········│ # ┌─────┐ │········│
22:20:14 <alise> │0······###########0│···········│ ### │·····│ #######·········│
22:20:15 <alise> is it really?
22:20:45 <alise> well, there's another one of those
22:20:57 <alise> exp2 \/
22:20:59 <alise> *\o/
22:21:22 <alise> ais523: ok; i'm at a loss
22:21:24 <alise> i've searched everywhere
22:21:38 <ais523> paste another screenshot?
22:22:12 <alise> ais523: http://i.imgur.com/k06Kv.png
22:22:15 <alise> ais523: no point pasting
22:22:21 <alise> ais523: i.imgur.com/k06Kv.png
22:22:34 <alise> <alise> ais523: behold the gigantic level 1: []imgur.com/P1Khd.png
22:22:35 <alise> i did say that before
22:22:38 <alise> but forgot you wouldn't see it
22:22:41 <ais523> oh, I was considering imgur a pastebin
22:22:42 <ais523> and I did see it
22:22:44 <ais523> thus "anotehr"
22:22:48 <ais523> *"another"
22:22:51 <alise> i thought you meant the one i actually pasted
22:22:53 <fizzie> Incidentally! I booted my network HD box thing today (after a rather severe thunderstorm which cut the electricity for an hour or two, not that it's necessarily related); the leds ("sys" + "disk1" + "disk2") on the box light up properly, but the network link led (in both ends of the cable) stays dark.
22:22:54 <alise> <alise> │······│ ┌───────────┐ 0########################·········│
22:22:55 <alise> <alise> │······│ │···········│ # ┌─────┐ │········│
22:22:55 <alise> <alise> │0······###########0│···········│ ### │·····│ #######·········│
22:23:01 <ais523> nah, I was referring to the screenshot
22:23:06 <ais523> I use a proportional font for IRC anyway...
22:23:10 <alise> me too :P
22:23:14 <alise> i was hoping you didn't
22:23:54 <ais523> I might search the stupid corridor in the middle again, just in case (searching isn't 100% likely to work)
22:23:59 <ais523> or just give up
22:24:05 <alise> I searched it 40 times or so.
22:24:11 <alise> Don't wanna give up, this is too ridiculous to give up on!
22:25:07 <alise> ais523: heh, that # ## thing, after 40s, revealed a connection between the tw
22:25:08 <alise> *two
22:25:12 <alise> this level is ludicrous
22:25:24 <ais523> I thought there probably would be
22:25:26 <alise> felix just gave me a lichen corpse, gross
22:25:33 <alise> now i'm hungry
22:25:42 <Sgeo> Aren't lichen edible?
22:25:44 <alise> worth eating the horrible, awful lichen corpse to stay alive? :D
22:25:48 <alise> Sgeo: yes, but felix just dropped it
22:26:10 <Sgeo> alise, I take it you like role-playing?
22:26:13 <fizzie> alise: It's not like real-life-you personally has to eat it, you know.
22:26:16 <alise> and picked it, and dropped it
22:26:21 <alise> Sgeo: why do you infer that?
22:26:21 <fizzie> (That might make the game even less popular.)
22:26:29 <alise> fizzie: Yes, but I might DIE.
22:26:41 <Sgeo> Oh, it might be old?
22:26:44 <alise> It tastes terrible!
22:26:53 <alise> probably quite old
22:27:49 <fizzie> I don't think lichen corpses actually ever age.
22:28:01 <fizzie> if (!tp && mnum != PM_LIZARD && mnum != PM_LICHEN && (otmp->orotten || !rn2(7))) { ...
22:28:10 <fizzie> See, lizards and lichen are always safe to eat.
22:28:52 <fizzie> (It's a bit weird that it always either "is delicious" or "tastes terrible"; there's no "is a bit, you know, meh" middle-ground.)
22:29:12 <fizzie> (On the other hand, you *are* eating corpses raw.)
22:29:15 <alise> ais523: add "is a bit, you know, meh" now
22:29:21 <alise> acehack must have this vital feature
22:29:24 <ais523> alise: doesn't fit with the goals of the fork
22:31:16 <alise> ais523: which are? to be MEH?
22:31:32 <ais523> alise: same as vanilla, only with a much better interface and bugs fixed
22:31:45 <ais523> the idea is to not try to take it way off into non-vanilla-land like most forks do
22:32:01 <ais523> also, ideally all changes should make the game easier, preferably by reducing interface screw rather than by actually making the gameplay easier
22:32:33 <alise> ais523: any other ideas where to search?
22:33:00 <ais523> try any stretch of three consecutive non-door wall pieces, especially if it's near a relatively open area of the map
22:33:28 <alise> is there a key to "go to nearest character of this key"?
22:33:34 <alise> like if i press F it'll seek to the nearest, say, litchen
22:33:38 <alise> for looking at / etc
22:34:19 <ais523> alise: that works, but only for staircases, doors, altars, and sinks
22:34:25 <ais523> I think at least one fork expands it to other things
22:34:32 <alise> how do you do it?
22:34:33 <ais523> (for monsters it's a bit harder due to clashes with movement keys)
22:34:39 <ais523> just press the character
22:34:44 <alise> oh, i meant like a separate character
22:34:51 <alise> I just pressed !
22:34:54 <ais523> e.g. /> examines the downstairs, _> travels to the downstairs
22:34:54 <alise> what did I do what did I do
22:34:59 <ais523> ! opens a shell recursively
22:35:02 <alise> it seems to have reset
22:35:02 <alise> phew
22:35:04 <ais523> kind-of pointless on UNIX
22:35:06 <alise> okay
22:35:07 <alise> but
22:35:08 <ais523> where you could just use control-Z
22:35:10 <alise> it's asking for a new character
22:35:13 <alise> can i just q that nethack?
22:35:17 <alise> (the shell is set to nethack for this terminal)
22:35:18 <ais523> I think so
22:35:28 <ais523> also, recursive nethack, how great!
22:35:37 <alise> ok, i'm on the verge of completely giving up
22:35:42 <alise> is searching connected corridors worthwhile?
22:35:53 <ais523> it could work in theory; search three squares into the corridor
22:36:00 <ais523> as it's the most likely place for a secret branch
22:36:06 <ais523> but really, I've never seen that technique needed
22:36:20 <ais523> if you're curious; instead of quitting, save then reopen in debug mode
22:36:22 <alise> you think #nethack will be able to help? (brb)
22:36:27 <ais523> and perhaps
22:44:19 <Vorpal> ais523, funny thing, it seems all files are within the actual partition
22:44:25 <Vorpal> just the fs thinks it is larger
22:44:41 <Vorpal> presumably just twiddling some header would fix it
22:45:33 <Vorpal> ais523, the good old ntfs user space tools seems to be able to read everything from it
22:45:42 <Vorpal> complaining about it though
22:49:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood).
22:51:27 -!- FireFly has joined.
23:01:41 <alise> ais523: should I just give up?
23:01:50 <alise> also, how do you open in debug mode again? root and some command-line switch right?
23:01:50 <ais523> you're still trying?
23:01:53 <ais523> yep
23:01:54 <alise> i just got back
23:01:58 <ais523> sudo /usr/games/nethack -D
23:02:14 <alise> I feel slightly queasy running a game as root.
23:02:16 <ais523> then you can map the level with control-F
23:02:32 <ais523> alise: so do I; I change that in my own local compiles
23:02:36 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if fakeroot works?
23:02:56 <ais523> nope, it doesn't
23:03:16 <alise> ais523: ideally, it should require to be run as root but then drop privileges immediately
23:03:23 <ais523> my guess is that it doesn't work on setgid programs
23:03:33 <ais523> alise: perhaps
23:03:43 <ais523> the Windows version just needs a password, that makes much more sense
23:03:52 <alise> what password? yours?
23:04:10 <alise> ais523: why /is/ nethack so protective of its files etc., by the way? originated on multi-user systems?
23:04:25 <ais523> yep
23:04:28 <ais523> and is still designed for them
23:04:31 <ais523> (the password's "wizard")
23:04:36 <ais523> (by default)
23:04:52 <alise> um, i started nethack with -D and it's just gone to the new-character screen
23:04:55 <ais523> if you have a bunch of people playing NetHack on the same server, it Does The Right Thing in most contexts
23:04:57 <alise> whereas nethack works
23:05:00 <ais523> alise: nethack -D -u alise
23:05:01 <alise> is that because root doesn ot have my save files?
23:05:04 <ais523> to load the same savefile
23:05:09 <ais523> hmm, actually, you could be righ
23:05:10 <ais523> *right
23:05:11 <alise> ais523: you mean -u ehird
23:05:15 <alise> my unix username is ehird
23:05:22 <alise> yeah, none of those work
23:05:25 <ais523> no, under -u you give the name of the character
23:05:29 <ais523> but there's a UID check as well
23:05:35 <ais523> you could just rename the savefile from 1000alise to 0wizard
23:05:39 <ais523> then open it
23:05:44 <alise> ais523: acehack proposal: ./configure --single-user :P
23:05:46 <ais523> unless it kills you by trickery for doing that
23:05:54 <alise> i think it does check filename, no?
23:06:04 <alise> ais523: (puts stuff in ~/.nethack, say, not the root-privileged directories)
23:06:06 <ais523> I'm not sure if it compares the filename to something else
23:06:17 <Sgeo> Try to keep a copy of the savefile just in case?
23:06:20 <ais523> alise: well, that's just ./configure --prefix=~/nethack or whatever
23:06:47 <alise> ais523: yes, but installs system-wide
23:06:51 <alise> ais523: everyone has their own high-scores, etc.
23:06:57 <alise> no setgid needed, everyone can use wizard mode, ...
23:07:01 <ais523> hmm
23:07:05 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why he has a tab opened on the XChat docs... and why there's a plugin module for Falcon
23:07:09 <ais523> that'd spoil most of the fun
23:07:18 <alise> Sgeo: i think if the dev team could, they'd make it search your entire disk for nethack save files
23:07:23 <alise> and kill all your characters if you've copied one out
23:07:48 <alise> ais523: [[To get to the wizard mode, you must start the game with the command "nethack -D -u wizard".]]
23:07:52 <alise> ais523: so you must play as wizard
23:07:59 <ais523> yes
23:08:05 <ais523> that's the windows version
23:08:11 <alise> nope
23:08:13 <ais523> the -u wizard is implied by the -D and being root, on UNIX/Linux
23:08:16 <ais523> I thought, at least
23:08:17 <alise> it then goes on to "In Windows, ..."
23:08:20 <alise> oh, maybe
23:08:23 <alise> On Debian/Ubuntu, starting NetHack as root using "sudo /usr/games/nethack -D" gets you into wizard mode.
23:08:28 <alise> ais523: only on debian
23:08:34 <alise> how peculiar
23:08:42 <ais523> alise: no, that's just due to the changes from the default config
23:08:45 <alise> ah
23:08:53 <ais523> the /default/ UNIX config requires your UNIX username to be "wizard"
23:08:55 <alise> ais523: apparently you can run nethack in debug mode with gdb
23:08:57 <ais523> which is a little ridiculous
23:09:02 <ais523> alise: but only if it isn't suid
23:09:04 <ais523> *sgid
23:09:09 <alise> ais523: what, it has to be uid 0 /and/ named "wizard"?
23:09:16 <ais523> no
23:09:18 <ais523> just named wizard
23:09:22 <alise> ah
23:09:43 <ais523> for extra fun, the config option that selects this is called KR1ED for apparently no reason at all
23:10:05 <alise> it's nethack, i'm hardly surprised
23:10:45 <alise> ais523: i like wikihack's annotated source
23:10:54 <alise> the only way to understand the code is literate programming
23:11:01 <alise> well, pseudo-literate
23:11:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:12:35 <alise> ais523: there's some random function that actually depends on the phase of the moon, isn't there?
23:12:43 <ais523> rnl, but only indirectly
23:13:05 <ais523> also, it gave different results yesterday
23:13:10 <ais523> (due to it being friday the 13th)
23:13:14 <alise> 30. x = RND(x);
23:13:15 <alise> 31. return(x);
23:13:15 <alise> 32. #else
23:13:15 <alise> 33. return(RND(x));
23:13:20 <alise> why on earth do they do it like that
23:13:31 <ais523> because one of the versions is utterly broken on some compiler or otehr
23:13:32 <ais523> *other
23:13:41 <alise> ais523: you're shitting me
23:13:51 <ais523> and either they have to write a huge comment "don't change this apparently ridiculous code because it breaks on (insert obscure compiler here)"
23:13:53 <alise> ais523: it has special behaviour, unintentionally, on friday the 13th?
23:13:56 <ais523> or just write it both ways with a #ifdef
23:13:58 <ais523> alise: intentionally
23:14:01 <alise> ah
23:14:03 <alise> oh
23:14:06 <alise> you were talking about the source code
23:14:06 <ais523> unintentionally would be ridiculous
23:14:16 <alise> ais523: it only does it the verbose way in debug mode, though
23:14:22 <ais523> hmm, that depends on debug mode?
23:14:25 <alise> yep
23:14:28 <alise> it also checks for a negative value
23:14:31 <alise> in debug mode
23:14:33 <ais523> normally, it's a #ifdef ATARI or #ifdef GCC_BUG or whatever
23:14:39 <ais523> alise: I bet it's just a location for a breakpoint
23:14:42 <alise> ah
23:14:51 <alise> how hacky :D
23:15:11 <alise> ais523: looking at rnl, i don't see where the time comes in
23:15:12 <alise> is it the Luck?
23:15:18 <ais523> yep
23:15:18 -!- Oranjer has joined.
23:15:20 -!- jcp has joined.
23:15:22 <ais523> that's why I said "indirectly"
23:15:23 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
23:15:42 <ais523> a full moon gives a consistent +1 to Luck
23:15:57 <alise> have i ever mentioned that nethack is insane?
23:16:17 <ais523> yes
23:16:23 <ais523> it's that sort of details I love, though
23:16:36 <alise> what's the least lucky day to play on? :)
23:16:46 <ais523> it had #tasvideos (specifically Ilari) write a program for bruteforcing all the new moon friday 13ths over the next century, just so we could play at hardest difficulty
23:17:00 <alise> you know, Ilari is here too :P
23:17:06 <ais523> I do know
23:17:20 <alise> so what's the next new moon friday 13th?
23:18:17 * ais523 checks the thread
23:18:24 <alise> link?
23:18:59 <ais523> 2015-11-13
23:19:06 <ais523> and http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9771
23:19:17 <alise> I'll be 19/20.
23:19:28 <alise> Scary.
23:19:36 <alise> ais523: you /could/ just set the clock
23:19:46 <ais523> that's how it's done in a TAS, ofc
23:19:49 <Ilari> http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=239663&highlight=#239663
23:19:52 <ais523> pick the optimal clock time
23:20:58 <alise> "unfortunately, as it's possible to manipulate luck without spending any gametime and the RNG seed space is incredibly large, minimum gametime would probably take several decades or even centuries to watch." :D
23:21:22 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:21:27 <alise> i remember that amazing pokemon something TAS that completed the game in a few frames of gametime
23:21:45 <alise> it was beautiful
23:22:43 <ais523> alise: it was improved
23:22:43 <pikhq> Frames?
23:22:48 <alise> ais523: really?
23:22:51 <ais523> pikhq: sixtieths of a second
23:22:55 <pikhq> I recall it being absurdly quick, but... *Frames*?!?
23:22:57 <ais523> alise: it now no longer leaves the main character's bedroom
23:22:57 <Ilari> There's two of them, the faster one and slower one. Both catch the infamous 152nd pokemon.
23:23:00 <alise> pikhq: it was less than a second
23:23:02 <alise> pikhq: so yes
23:23:06 <pikhq> alise: ...
23:23:06 <alise> ais523: got a link?
23:23:14 <alise> pikhq: of gametime, not of menutime etc
23:23:15 <pikhq> alise: So... Not the 2 minute one.
23:23:17 <alise> pikhq: no
23:23:20 <pikhq> Oh, gametime.
23:23:21 <pikhq> Yeah.
23:23:22 <alise> pikhq: much quicker
23:23:33 <alise> pikhq: that includes in-game menus
23:23:36 <alise> pikhq: just not the intro menus
23:23:40 <pikhq> Mmm.
23:23:45 <ais523> http://tasvideos.org/1582M.html
23:23:55 <ais523> that's around 2 minutes, though
23:24:01 <ais523> you might be thinking of King's Bounty, but that isn't a pokemon game
23:24:06 <alise> ais523: "The interesting bottleneck, which gametime speedruns keep coming up against in non-TAS runs, is that it's impossible to access the Quest, which contains one of the items absolutely necessary to complete the game, before turn 2000, which puts some interesting constraints on the run."
23:24:11 <alise> just do N. when you're ready?
23:24:18 <pikhq> Yeah, you're thinking of King's Bounty.
23:24:21 <ais523> yep, that's one possibility
23:24:25 <alise> i'm not thinking of that
23:24:28 <alise> hmm
23:24:34 -!- Flonk has joined.
23:24:35 <alise> i guess that less than a minute one is the one i meant
23:24:36 <pikhq> alise: That one actually *has* a few-frame TAS.
23:24:42 <alise> king's bounty is shit though :P
23:24:56 <alise> pikhq: youtube's html5 player is rubbish
23:25:05 <pikhq> The Pokemon Yellow TAS is just absurd.
23:25:29 <pikhq> Memory corruption FTW.
23:25:42 <alise> TASes are probably the closest thing to performance art video games have
23:26:10 <pikhq> Pretty much.
23:26:15 <alise> *have.
23:26:34 <alise> ais523: hey, he leaves the bedroom
23:26:36 <alise> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zFhVr-oMcU
23:26:40 <alise> to go to glitchland
23:26:46 <ais523> well, yes
23:26:53 <ais523> but that's once everything's set up
23:27:05 <pikhq> Yes; he rewrites the memory so that the exit of the bedroom is the victory room.
23:27:19 -!- jcp has joined.
23:27:27 <alise> "you have 62 ash, and a error rating!" --YouTube
23:28:22 <alise> ais523: what is JPC-RR?
23:28:30 <ais523> rerecording PC emulator
23:28:35 <alise> ah
23:28:40 <Ilari> Slow as hell...
23:28:42 <alise> why not just mod nethack's code?
23:28:44 <pikhq> It's in Java.
23:28:46 <alise> to do rerecording
23:29:02 <ais523> because you have to do that separately for every game
23:29:04 <ais523> also, NetHack is insane
23:29:06 <alise> ais523: presumably for this nethack speedrun you'd only record a frame when you press a key?
23:29:12 <alise> otherwise you'd have a lot of wasted time
23:29:17 <ais523> the debates about the goal have been really large
23:29:24 <ais523> although, NetHack's RNG is action-based, not time-based
23:29:39 <ais523> also, we need to get it done in less than an hour in order to play at hardest difficulty
23:29:51 <alise> <alise> ais523: presumably for this nethack speedrun you'd only record a frame when you press a key?
23:30:11 <ais523> alise: JPC-RR emulates quite a slow system
23:30:16 <ais523> you record a frame every onscreen frame
23:30:21 <alise> yes, but still...
23:30:25 <alise> it's so unoptimal!
23:30:27 <ais523> many actions are slow enough that you actually see the game grinding
23:30:43 <alise> one frame per keypress would be amazing
23:30:48 <alise> since it would be "theoretically" o
23:30:50 <alise> *possible
23:30:56 <ais523> I don't know what you're talking about
23:30:59 <alise> given a robot attached to a computer instead of a keyboard
23:31:05 <alise> ais523: well, imagine a quick computer
23:31:10 <ais523> you can enter multiple keys per frame
23:31:10 <Ilari> Well, drop the divider a bit and it will be faster system (and even slower emulation).
23:31:14 <ais523> and the computer speed really doesn't matter
23:31:17 <alise> now imagine that every time you press a key and nethack responds, it records a frame in the video
23:31:20 <alise> and that's it
23:31:29 <ais523> many keys lead to no onscreen response, though
23:31:36 <alise> ais523: well, you know what i mean
23:31:37 <ais523> especially as you spend half your time walking into walls to manipulate the RNG
23:31:42 <alise> just do it 0.5s after you press it or something
23:31:55 <alise> and never press more often than that; i'm talking about the theoretical idea
23:32:51 <alise> ais523: btw, you have to use 0root.gz
23:32:53 <alise> not 0wizard
23:33:02 <ais523> interesting
23:33:16 <alise> ais523: and thanks to that, nethack just erased the file
23:33:19 <alise> [ehird@dinky ~]$ sudo nethack -D -u wizard
23:33:21 <alise> "LOL ITS NOT URS"
23:33:22 <alise> now it's gone
23:33:25 <alise> what's up with that???
23:33:33 <alise> it's not the wizard's fault that root tried to intrude
23:33:42 <alise> good thing i backed it up
23:33:46 <alise> oh, wait
23:33:49 <alise> ais523: it has to be 0wizard
23:33:53 <alise> ais523: it's just that it realised it was alise's file.
23:33:53 <ais523> yep, I thought so
23:34:05 <ais523> NetHack's full of protections against that sort of thing
23:34:06 <alise> can you tweak that?
23:34:13 <ais523> only with a recompile, I think
23:34:19 <alise> but it's debug mode ffs!
23:34:41 * alise starts a new game, disgruntled
23:34:47 <ais523> see, this way you can debug the anti-cheat protection!
23:34:48 <alise> yay katana
23:35:16 * alise satiated
23:35:35 <alise> ais523: is sokoban optional?
23:35:39 <ais523> yes
23:35:45 <alise> good; i'm terrible at sokoban
23:35:47 <ais523> although there's some decent loot there
23:36:06 <alise> ais523: all very well but i can't play the simplest sokoban levels outside of nethack
23:37:10 <alise> ais523: "Actually, Ais523 planned to do the run by using special hacked Linux version (modified to behave like DOS version would) recording the needed keyboard input and then just spamming that input (together with the boot sequence input) to emulator using Lua (which will cause final movie file (unless edited) to have RERECORDS 0)."
23:37:14 <alise> ais523: that's basically what i was proposing
23:39:22 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:39:47 <alise> "You hear someone counting money."
23:39:49 <alise> on the first level?
23:39:52 <ais523> vault on the level
23:39:58 <ais523> (not a shop, that's a different message)
23:40:06 <ais523> vaults are disconnected from everything else, and contain money
23:40:35 <alise> and how do you get there?
23:40:54 <alise> a teleport. ha
23:41:09 <ais523> or digging
23:41:15 <alise> ais523: how?
23:41:21 <ais523> pickaxe, wand of digging, mattock
23:41:23 <ais523> or the spell
23:41:29 <alise> ais523: yeah, remember when i said level 1? :P
23:41:40 <ais523> you could have a picaxe at level 1
23:41:44 <ais523> *pickaxe
23:41:47 <ais523> just play archeologist
23:41:48 <alise> lichen! goblin throwing orcish dagger! wowzers!
23:41:55 <alise> the goblin killed the lichen
23:41:56 <alise> thanks, goblin
23:43:42 <alise> I just picked up a large box.
23:43:45 <alise> Bad idea? Probably.
23:44:11 <ais523> yes, they're rather heavy and don't do anything useful
23:44:15 <ais523> well, don't do much useful
23:44:20 <ais523> you could try looking inside it, but it's probably locked
23:44:40 <alise> err, how do you look inside again?
23:44:44 <alise> >_>
23:44:52 <ais523> #loot on the floor, or a in inventory
23:45:02 <alise> not locked
23:45:09 <alise> at ripe ration and a wire ring
23:45:11 <alise> *a
23:45:19 <ais523> better than nothing, I suppose
23:46:32 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
23:47:05 <alise> ais523: it's probably impossible to reach this vault, isn't it?
23:47:19 <ais523> at this stage in the game, mostly
23:47:27 <ais523> there's likely a teleport trap somewhere which sends you into it
23:47:33 <ais523> but it won't help much, as it won't let you back /out/
23:47:56 <alise> There's some graffiti on the floor here. You read: "Wcl| Come".--More--
23:48:04 <ais523> just random graffiti
23:48:09 <alise> weird graffiti
23:48:12 <alise> is it distorted "Well Come"?
23:48:32 <ais523> yep
23:48:58 <fizzie> "Well Come", /* Prisoner */
23:49:12 <fizzie> (They all are references to something or other.)
23:49:23 -!- relet has joined.
23:49:45 <alise> ais523: is there ever a . break in a wall without path after it?
23:49:51 <ais523> it can happen
23:49:54 <ais523> although it's rare
23:50:02 <fizzie> I like how the one with a phone number -- "For a good time call 8?7-5309" -- has a pre-corrupted one digit to not make it any real number ever.
23:50:03 <ais523> the dungeon isn't in the best state of repair
23:50:33 <alise> ais523: clearly not so rare; i've s'ed it 40 or so times and nothing
23:50:44 <alise> fizzie: don't they know you're meant to use 555-!
23:51:09 <alise> yay a fountain, i forgot what fountains do ...
23:51:13 <alise> this knowledge has just leaked out of my brain
23:51:26 <fizzie> Fountains generate snakes to kill you. :p
23:51:42 <alise> noted :P
23:52:11 <fizzie> They can do a lot of other things too, though.
23:52:19 <fizzie> Like a water demon. :p
23:52:22 <alise> This water's no good! The fountain dries up!
23:52:28 <alise> Each item in your inventory has 1/5 chance of being cursed outright; your hunger is increased and your constitution is abused.
23:52:35 <alise> wonderful!
23:52:37 <alise> ais523: how fucked am I?
23:52:48 <ais523> never quaff fountains
23:52:52 <ais523> just, seriously
23:52:55 <alise> oh
23:52:55 <alise> okay
23:52:56 <alise> too late
23:52:59 <ais523> at least, that doesn't screw you up too badly early game
23:53:01 <alise> i thought it was a Good Thing
23:53:02 <ais523> it's much worse late on
23:53:13 <alise> i wonder how much of my stuff is poisoned, yay
23:53:23 <alise> erm
23:53:23 <alise> cursed
23:53:38 <alise> ais523: what's the thing you're /meant/ to do with fountains?
23:53:50 <ais523> they're situationally useful for dipping things in
23:53:53 <fizzie> You can Excaliburize swords in there, under certain conditions.
23:53:58 <alise> "Fountain quaffing is the specific practice of immediately quaffing from every fountain you find, in the hope of releasing a water demon and getting an early wish. In a lesser form, most inexperienced players will unintentionally engage in this behavior; this is unfortunate as most fountain quaffers die after a few hundred turns, but those with experience don't mind because they can just start again."
23:54:47 <fizzie> You have good luck (I mean the real-world sense, not the game-attribute sense) there: it's 1/30 to get the cursing thing. (Many others are also negative, though you *can* find gems and such too.)
23:54:47 <alise> You displaced Felix. Click! Felix triggers something.--More--
23:54:54 <alise> You are hit by a boulder! The boulder misses Felix.
23:54:59 <alise> STUPID FUCKING CAT
23:55:12 <fizzie> Aren't cats supposed to be agile and not boulder-trap-triggering sort?-)
23:55:13 <alise> fizzie: by good luck do you mean terrible luck?
23:55:20 <fizzie> Yes.
23:55:24 <alise> :D
23:55:30 <alise> fizzie: *the boulder-trap-triggering sort
23:55:37 <fizzie> I may have meant to write "terrible" there.
23:55:46 <alise> it's better if you didn't intend to
23:55:54 <fizzie> (I am not entirely undrunken at the moment, sorry about that.)
23:56:09 <fizzie> ((Is that even a word?))
23:56:20 <alise> Do you normally use nested parentheses when drunk?
23:56:55 <fizzie> I sometimes use them when sober (that's the word I was looking for there), but that's not proper nesting, to do ((x)) like that.
23:57:14 <alise> It's ... autonesting!
23:57:20 <alise> fizzie: What is your opinion on crabs?
23:57:38 <Sgeo> There is a difference between (x) and ((x))
23:57:44 <Sgeo> So surely you mean ((x)) when you say ((x))
23:57:49 <alise> How quickly should I eat after I start to feel hungry? ais523?
23:57:54 <alise> I can never judge how serious it is.
23:57:54 <fizzie> "(slang) pubic lice"?
23:58:13 <ais523> alise: generally, you should eat nonpermafood whenever you find it
23:58:18 <ais523> and permafood, you can wait until you become Weak
23:58:21 <Sgeo> Unless you're satiated
23:58:25 <ais523> although eating it at Hungry is fine
23:58:28 <ais523> Sgeo: right
23:58:30 <alise> ais523: ok, i'll wait
23:58:35 <alise> i only have one ration i know to be uncursed
23:58:39 <alise> d - an uncursed food ration
23:58:40 <alise> i - 2 food rations
23:58:40 <alise> k - a tripe ration
23:58:56 <fizzie> There was something bad about walking around when satiated, wasn't there?
23:59:05 <alise> two downstairs; one will go to somewhere small, right?
23:59:37 <fizzie> The mines would be the first branchy point, wouldn't it?
23:59:43 <Sgeo> Small relative to the rest of the dungeon
23:59:49 <Sgeo> But not "small" in normal terms
23:59:56 <alise> Valkyrie needs food, badly! You stop searching.
23:59:56 <alise> HAHAHA
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