00:00:00 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:00:09 -!- augur has joined. 00:00:10 oerjan, well, the problem comes down to do { putChar 'a' ; c <- getChar ; putChar 'b' ; putChar c } 00:00:47 I have tested this, and by default it prints "ab", and then reads the character and prints it. 00:00:56 Phantom_Hoover: getChar needs to make its (empty) output strict in its input 00:01:20 oerjan, wait, I think I have an idea. 00:02:05 OK, my tests are now maxing out the clipboard. 00:02:09 Anyway... 00:02:33 getChar i = case i of (c:rest) -> (rest, id, c) | otherwise = error something 00:02:39 *otherwise -> 00:02:50 *; otherwise -> 00:03:22 oerjan, that is the exact implementation I have. 00:03:39 the important part there is that getting to the id _must_ force looking at i strictly 00:04:03 i.e. it does a strict match, not a lazy one 00:04:43 oerjan, yes; my experimentation has shown that trivial arithmetic identities work for that. 00:05:38 in fact it might have to force looking at c, depending on whether lazy k's input _spine_ forces any input or not 00:06:13 (the spine being the cons cells but not their cars, in essence) 00:06:44 oerjan, I'm just going to make getchar look at c. 00:06:55 yeah 00:07:46 ...And it doesn't seem to work. 00:08:20 Presumably because bind can't look at what's in the first argument. 00:08:21 and are you sure that looking at the output of a >>= f looks at the output of a first? 00:08:23 oerjan: quick, simplify sum(ceil(log a_i)) - ceil(sum(log a_i)) 00:08:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:09:01 -☃ + x 00:09:09 Phantom_Hoover: the _output_ part from a >>= f can look at the first argument, is what i've been saying 00:10:05 oerjan, http://pastebin.com/BE3FAMVD is the current definition of bind; critique away. 00:10:12 because it is of the form ao . fo, and when you apply that laziness causes you to look at ao first 00:10:23 alise: AAARGH 00:12:15 * Phantom_Hoover is feeling very odd. 00:12:18 oerjan: Dammit 00:12:25 oerjan: But it's interestiiing! 00:12:28 I cannot make myself believe that London is the capital of the UK. 00:12:32 I don't know why 00:12:43 The name just suddenly seems utterly unfamiliar. 00:12:47 Phantom_Hoover: As opposed to? 00:13:11 Phantom_Hoover: the (o xout ...) should _not_ be inside an invocation of f 00:13:20 oerjan, ah, thanks. 00:13:40 Phantom_Hoover: it isn't, it's the capital of england 00:13:50 well ok the uk too 00:13:52 but primarily england! 00:14:07 alise, seriously? You need to learn some geography. 00:14:26 I meant that it was primarily the capital of England! 00:14:36 I was just trying to reassure you, sheesh. 00:15:12 alise, the feeling's kind of gone, though I still think "London? What a weird name" involuntarily. 00:16:27 oerjan: I'm surprised the value of (sum(ceil(log a_i)) - ceil(sum(log a_i))) isn't a common thing, actually. 00:16:38 alise: hm well it should be possible to write a_i = base^n * c_i where 1 < c_i <= base and then i think replacing a_i by c_i gives the same result 00:16:50 oerjan: It's how more efficient the optimal representation of a structure is vs. the easy representation. 00:16:55 (Consider base-2.) 00:17:04 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:17:17 i.e. multiplying an a_i with a power of the base does not change the result 00:17:53 oerjan: does that actually help? :D 00:18:15 and then the first sum is just the number of the a_i's 00:18:27 (all those ceilings are 1) 00:19:13 oerjan, wait, where should I be concatenating the output lists for bind? 00:19:20 oerjan: hmm 00:19:31 oerjan: does this actually simplify anything though? 00:19:40 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:19:42 -- let's call the length of a n -- 00:19:53 Router likes crapping on me 00:20:11 Phantom_Hoover: everyone knows london is a small town on Mars, near the capital of O'Wobble 00:20:26 oerjan, and should I concatenate lists there? 00:20:42 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0011E5RNO/ 00:20:45 Function generator! 00:22:23 My sound also likes crapping on me 00:22:26 BRB 00:22:37 Phantom_Hoover: yes, however your representation must be such that when looking at (o xout fout), evaluation of fout (i.e. essentially application of f) is not triggered by looking at the xout part 00:22:59 well lists or functions, i don't think that matters for this issue 00:24:15 oerjan, I can't really see how that can be done. 00:24:38 Phantom_Hoover: any properly lazy language can do that >:) 00:25:41 Of course it takes two minutes for the window with shutdown options to appear 00:25:44 Why shouldn't it? 00:25:48 oerjan, well, the result of a bind has to be a triple which includes the concatenated output, yes? 00:26:09 Unless I change the whole architecture of the system. 00:26:17 Phantom_Hoover: yes, but there is no reason why returning that triple should require evaluating all the parts of it 00:27:54 hm i guess the trouble here is how to make a lazy triple of stuff from the corresponding strict version 00:28:21 oerjan, how does the current implementation require evaluation of the entire triple? 00:28:22 Phantom_Hoover: Suggestion: A completely new .XCompose that doesn't include the default ones, since they suck. 00:28:32 alise, relevant. 00:28:44 s/triple/output/ 00:29:05 Phantom_Hoover: I was just suggesting it randomly. 00:29:21 alise, some of the defaults are useful. 00:29:21 Phantom_Hoover: well it requires the application of _f_ just to look at the xout part, which is the real problem. 00:29:36 "+char for diæresis is helful. 00:29:37 -!- Flonk has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]). 00:29:40 *p 00:29:44 oerjan, ah, yes. 00:29:54 Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, but altogether it has a bunch of crappy bindings, and it'd be far better to just do it again ourselves. 00:30:33 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:30:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:30:55 oerjan, I stuck the tuple unpacking in the application to f because the alternative was pretty ugly. 00:31:24 oh you have a triple function, hm 00:32:53 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:33:03 Phantom_Hoover: Suggestion: MetaCompose, a program for spitting out compose files! 00:33:05 -!- augur has joined. 00:33:22 You write: "a ä 00:33:23 and it spits out 00:33:32 <"> : "ä" 00:33:49 alise, more helpful if it lets you iterate. 00:33:54 Phantom_Hoover: you probably need to generate the triple from f as a lazy variable, then construct the final triple from that 00:34:03 Phantom_Hoover: I'm thinking it could run it through some type of templating thing. 00:34:05 oerjan, hang on, I'm working on it. 00:34:50 Phantom_Hoover: Wait, how is iterating more helpful? 00:35:16 alise, yeah, I didn't really think that through. 00:35:45 Phantom_Hoover: It'd only be helpful if you had a diaeresise() function, which would be just as hard as manually listing them. 00:35:53 alise, true. 00:36:43 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:37:38 * oerjan declares the logs too long today 00:39:20 Phantom_Hoover: Hmm, how could space be represented? 00:39:28 Or maybe the separator should be tab. 00:40:38 oerjan, changed bind to http://pastebin.com/LwX0A14t , no change in behaviour. 00:40:44 -!- tombom__ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:41:01 Phantom_Hoover: Although that's a bit confusing. 00:41:27 alise, quote if it has spaces? 00:41:31 Or backslash? 00:42:41 Phantom_Hoover: hm i don't know why that wouldn't work 00:42:47 Phantom_Hoover: Perhaps. 00:43:14 although you might want f xv xin to be shared, that shouldn't have anything to do with this problem... 00:43:33 Phantom_Hoover: but what about <"> ? :D 00:43:47 alise, \"\ 00:45:04 Phantom_Hoover: Vomit. 00:45:04 oerjan, I can only assume Gould wanted me to suffer. 00:45:13 Phantom_Hoover: good luck debugging this >:( 00:45:24 alise, or just backslashes for everything. 00:45:34 Phantom_Hoover: Vomitochondria. 00:45:54 alise, no, because only backslash and space need escaping. 00:46:23 For everything else, it's all pretty. 00:46:29 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 00:50:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:58:53 nooga should be online: http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/post/948073732 01:04:52 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:05:13 -!- augur has joined. 01:06:13 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 01:06:23 I am a robot 01:07:03 I am a bobot 01:08:09 I am an eccentric robot who longs to be human. 01:08:38 (As indicated in a Facebook comment I made on Aug. 7 :P) 01:09:17 I am a bored dot 01:11:33 I'm a dored bot. 01:18:16 Ok, "Time" was as awesome as I thought it'd be 01:21:12 I am a bored hole. 01:32:57 http://esolangs.org/wiki/01 01:34:56 * Sgeo vaguely finds Warrigal on Reddit 01:36:17 Did you find a comment by uorygl on Reddit? 01:38:26 Yes 01:38:54 Someone write an assembler for ByteByteJump. >_> 01:39:18 Neat. Which one? 01:39:53 Your two most recent non-submissions 01:39:56 :/ 01:40:09 * Warrigal nods. 01:41:30 Gregor: Link me to your munger thing that spits out an image, not that silly web interface, plz 01:41:39 Sgeo: Why :/? 01:41:54 alise: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php 01:42:08 Gregor: What are the paramateroodlies? 01:42:19 Documentation in http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.phps 01:42:38 (Source code = documentation) 01:42:54     "-1" => "joey", 01:42:56     "05" => "05-5.1", 01:42:56     "16" => "16-1", 01:42:56     "40" => "40.5", 01:42:56     "447" => "447-2" 01:42:56 Whaaaat 01:43:13 Ignore those :P 01:43:25 Fatal error: Maximum execution time of 30 seconds exceeded in /var/www/imgs/dinosaurComic.php on line 171 01:43:43 Hmmm, it appears to be borkleborked. 01:43:49 I don't care to fix it right now X-P 01:43:56 But this is IMPORTANT! 01:44:01 It will be the best lonelydino submission EVER. 01:44:09 And yes, I need that script to do it. 01:44:37 Gregor: It works, just slowly. 01:44:53 Gregor: Yo yo your IDs totally map incorrectly 01:44:56 Damn, why is it being slow ... 01:45:05 Unless ?comics= doesn't mean the strip IDs in the URLs??? 01:45:07 My IDs map correctly, just not to the IDs at qwantz.com/?here 01:45:20 The strip IDs are as mentioned in the filename, not the URL. 01:45:47 And ... hypothetically ... if these strips were not numbered, but named? 01:46:23 Then I would need to adjust the script to handle them, but since they're probably not the right size and/or don't have the right configuration to work anyway, it's sort of a whocaresish situation. 01:46:38 Sgeo: do you read /r/atheism regularly? 01:46:51 It's on my frontpage 01:46:55 Gregor: But dammit, I could submit a comic including "panels" of http://www.qwantz.com/comics/smbc.gif! 01:47:05 And that other self-drawn guest comic of late! 01:47:09 And still claim it only has the T-Rex panels in! 01:47:16 Thus creating the weirdest, most cut-off T-Rex is Lonely strip ever! 01:47:21 I call it... POSTMODERNISM. 01:47:23 Yeah, no :P 01:47:42 I hate you and die. 01:48:06 http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1772 also 01:48:24 And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1771 01:48:52 Heh, I see what the issue is X-D 01:48:57 And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1771 01:49:04 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:49:07 The guest comics were confusing my "last-comic-value" calculator. 01:49:23 And http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1769 (<3 this one) 01:49:45 Sgeo: do you find it valuable in any way, or just entertaining? 01:49:47 AND http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1768 01:49:54 http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php E_WORKSAGAIN 01:50:11 *shrug* 01:50:12 Worst error message ever. 01:50:32 the feared Warrigal inquisition! 01:50:52 Gregor: http://codu.org/imgs/dinosaurComic.php?strip=true&comics=samandfuzzy&panels=1,2,3,4,5 WHAT IS IT THAT IS GOING ON HERE 01:51:22 ALSO http://www.qwantz.com/comics/badmachinery.png 01:51:24 Erm http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1767 01:51:41 alise: If you munge it manually, and I like it (doubtful), I can still put it up :P 01:52:21 Gregor: Do you like glitch music? 01:52:37 ... no? What's "glitch music" 01:52:39 If so, you will LOVE my not-strictly-only-T-Rex T-Rex-panels-only cut-off-and-clipped T-REX IS LONELY comic production! 01:52:46 Gregor: Imagine a bunch of audial glitches. 01:52:50 Repeat for minutes. 01:52:52 That is glitch music. 01:53:55 Gregor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Glitch.ogg 01:53:58 Gregor: glitch music 01:54:26 a lot of it is ... much more glitchy than that 01:57:25 Maybe I should turn my A/C on at some point 01:58:31 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:02:36 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:02:47 Ugh, with Chrome 6, I can barely tell the difference between an incognito window and a regular one 02:02:47 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:03:09 Color difference is too subtle. Guess I have to look for the shady guy in glasses 02:03:24 Sgeo: Can you change the colors? 02:04:27 I don't know how, nor do I care to bother >. 02:04:28 > 02:04:49 -!- Zuu has joined. 02:14:55 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:15:07 -!- augur has joined. 02:20:11 pikhq: Album ReplayGain: awesome thing, or most awesome thing? 02:21:13 alise: Reasonably awesome. 02:21:24 pikhq: INSUFFICIENT ENTHUSIASM. 02:21:40 alise: Now what's *awesome* is albums that actually have dynamic range. 02:21:52 Fuck the loudness war. 02:22:28 pikhq: And album ReplayGain retains dynamic range in albums that have it. 02:22:59 Yes. 02:23:00 I have one album that has something like no dynamic range at all, but it's intentional. 02:24:23 It is royally fucked up that we've got about 90 dB of dynamic range and maybe 10 dB are used. 02:24:40 Mm. 02:24:57 I don't mind the lack of dynamic range when it's intentional, though. 02:25:02 But in most cases, it's not, it's just shitty mixing. 02:25:36 I'm complaining about shitty mixing. 02:26:01 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/GiveItAwayLoudnessComparison.png Not that I care about this song, but this is an atrocity. 02:26:20 (1991 vs. 2003 mastering of "Give It Away" by "Red Hot Chili Peppers") 02:26:25 That last version must sound truly, truly awful. 02:26:32 It's clipping ... constantly ... 02:27:19 Yes, the song is made of clip. 02:43:22 *Aaaaah*, FLAC. 02:46:01 pikhq: Yes, FLAC, that wonderful thing that you can't tell from MP3 but still makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside! 02:46:17 alise: I can hear MP3 artifacts, mostly on percussion. 02:46:17 The annexation of your disk space feels so nice. <3 02:46:29 pikhq: Not with lame -V2 --joint-stereo, you can't. 02:46:33 (Don't argue. You're wrong.) 02:46:40 Yes, but we're not dealing with well-encoded MP3s here. 02:46:44 Fair enough. 02:46:55 Random, pirated ones. FLAC is the only way to get reasonable audio out of that. 02:47:18 Also, I like being able to transcode to arbitrary formats... 02:47:46 If a device can handle AAC or Ogg, not just MP3, it's damned well getting the smaller-but-better files. 02:48:24 If a device can handle AAC, Ogg or MP3, it damned well should be getting the smaller-but-better files anyway! 02:49:32 And I would like to be able to instantly switch to some magical, fairy-dust "30kbps gets you transparency" format in the future for devices without terabytes to work with. :P 02:50:41 But yes, a well-encoded MP3 sounds quite good. (though 320kbps ones make me want to kill someone, anyways) 02:52:02 http://codu.org/music/ OK, it's rough, but I've updated my music page. 02:52:08 The menus are autogen'd :) 02:53:02 Gregor: Needs moar FLAC 02:53:21 pikhq: Before I didn't even MENTION the FLAC files, now they're linked, stop complaining :P 02:53:52 Gregor: My phone, sadly, does not yet play Ogg. 02:53:58 Though oddly, it has *libogg* on it. 02:54:07 Wait, I thought you had an Android phone? 02:54:14 No, webOS. 02:54:18 Oh that's right. 02:54:22 You have that shitty piece of shit. 02:54:29 Need to write a decent audio player for it. 02:54:30 Enjoy the MP3s then :P 02:55:02 And by "audio player" I mean "GUI" 02:55:38 Cause there isn't much actual porting needed. Just ARM Linux with a retarded UI. 02:56:08 (who the hell makes a UI to primarily run Javascript?) 02:56:21 Google. Except, incredibly, NOT Google. 02:56:33 Although it's totally something Google would do (*cough* ChromeOS *cough*) 02:56:44 Gregor: Your little link-menus are waay too big. 02:56:45 Yeah, well, that's webOS. 02:56:48 Like chunkiness personified. 02:57:01 Though thankfully you can do UIs without Javascript. 02:57:12 alise: Yeah, they are ... 02:57:16 In which case it's SDL with some added functions. 02:57:30 Gregor: Also, it's not terribly obvious which one is hovering -- might I suggest a background darken, rather than a border change? 02:58:30 alise: OK, just fixed that (locally) ... not sure where in this convoluted mess of CSS the size issue is right now :P 02:59:42 [ehird@dinky ~]$ mpc volume 02:59:43 volume:4294967295% 03:01:33 Made menus smaller and flashier. 03:01:43 alise: Loudness war FTW? 03:01:55 :P 03:01:55 pikhq: No... that's just MPD being crazy as fuck. 03:01:57 :P 03:02:26 Gregor: List "Source" under "Sheet music", methinks. 03:02:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:03:38 alise: Where is "source" not under "sheet music"? 03:03:46 OH 03:04:04 Yeah, that's screwy but it's just a modicum more complicated than I'm willing to fix (my generator was not set up for that :P) 03:04:11 I'll fix it E_LATER. 03:04:34 Development 03:04:34 To get the code: 03:04:34 hg clone http://www.red-bean.com/decklin/njiiri.git 03:04:37 Spot the mistake. 03:04:54 *groan* 03:05:10 With the proper plugin, that still works :P 03:14:46 What if time travel in the Stargate Verse, except for "1969", uses the Sam Hughes Ed stories model of time travel? 03:14:54 Gregor: What kind of a plugin is that? 03:15:02 Sgeo: You mean the obvious model? 03:15:58 The show implies that when something goes back in time, it changes things and that the original ceases to exist, or something, but what if it doesn't? 03:16:28 Then NO IMPLICATIONS WHATSOEVER. 03:18:42 Does anyone here use MPD? 03:19:43 -!- cpressey has joined. 03:19:59 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:20:18 alise, it means the people in the sterilized people of 2010 are still sterilized 03:20:21 ^^^ SPOILERS 03:20:40 And that ... well, no real implications for the SGA time travel ep, I guess 03:20:48 Is that an SGU spoiler? 03:20:55 I suppose not. 03:20:59 *guess not 03:21:01 *guess not. 03:21:09 Holy frim fram 03:21:19 Just an SG-1 spoiler 03:21:30 Yeah, I don't care about SG-1's ongoing plotlines. Because it has none. 03:21:58 How dare you insult that show I don't care about 03:21:59 None in the sense of "SG-1 has been cancelled", or as in some slur against SG-1? 03:22:11 No slur. It's just very episode-oriented. 03:22:21 So you can never really spoil much more than an episode. 03:23:07 That's like saying "Carson dies" isn't an SGA spoiler 03:23:10 >.> 03:23:20 Have I ever mentioned you should stick your head in a vat of lye? 03:23:22 Moving on, 03:23:25 Major events do happen occasionally in SG-1 03:23:36 (note: I don't care about SGA, but if I did, I would hate your guts right now.) 03:23:44 CARSON DIES?!?? OMG 03:23:47 who's Carson? 03:24:18 alise, I kind of assumed that if you cared about SGA, you'd have seen all the episodes 03:26:36 Vorpal: is this a permanent new identity for you, AnMaster? 03:26:44 "American-Canadian military science fiction television franchise Stargate" 03:26:47 What a linkbomb. 03:29:06 The Googles! They do something! 03:32:56 *sigh* why is this shitty 03:33:40 alise: What is "this"? 03:33:52 Music Player Daemon, it's so almost good. 03:33:52 Maybe I can tell you why it is shitty (hint: I cannot) 03:34:02 Hm 03:34:13 All I want is ... the ability to use the entire library as a playlist. 03:34:22 That seems reasonable 03:34:31 I cannot figure out how to achieve this. 03:41:25 -!- mutoga has quit (Quit: :) ♪ © ¿ !~§¤[1;21] 0.6+8*9X²2¨@#|/[_.-{3,4°5^5"'€&6,55957(FR)<7%0=1=0%6>?&£`"5^5°4,3}-._]\|#@¨2²X9*8+7.0 [12;2]¤§~¡ ? 12±¾ ® ♪ (:). 03:41:44 ARIBAS is an interactive interpreter suitable for big integer 03:41:44 arithmetic and multiprecision floating point arithmetic. 03:41:44 It has a syntax similar to Pascal or Modula-2, but contains also 03:41:46 features from other programming languages like C, Lisp, Oberon. 03:41:59 Okay. 03:42:25 that was meant to be one line 03:42:37 also, it is probably not an amusingly bad as R. 03:42:40 *as 03:43:45 (bad = bad for general programming) 03:45:15 And R is better known (there was a New York Times article about it!) So I will probably implement Thue in R. 03:45:32 Is Thue turing-complete? 03:45:38 yes 03:45:43 It better friggin be 03:45:44 So therefore R is. 03:45:57 of course R is. 03:45:59 Or cpressey seeks to do the impossible] 03:46:10 Thue[deterministic] is TC, too. 03:54:02 Of course cpressey seeks to do the impossible, but not THAT impossible 03:55:55 Right now my level of "impossible" is "get Rosegarden to actually play the notes I entered" 03:56:17 cpressey: gregor says you're doin it ron 03:56:20 *rong 03:56:37 Yeah, not surprising. I guess I should checky the loggy 03:56:59 Geh. How do I scroll back in irssi? No, I should goodle this 03:57:08 shift+pgup 03:57:20 -!- kwertii has joined. 03:57:34 wait, maybe you already saw it. 03:57:39 12:53:12 Y'know, I would answer cpressey's questions, but he's not online :P 03:57:39 12:53:19 If he's asking that question, then he's doing it all wrong :P 03:57:39 12:53:21 Gregor-W, what questions? 03:57:39 12:53:36 w.r.t. making Rosegarden talk to fluidsynth. 03:58:41 Useful! *and* shift+PgUp does nuzzingk 04:01:00 just PgUp for me 04:01:46 hey! that works 04:01:52 shift+PgUp instead scrolls up in the PuTTY scrollback 04:02:01 I was expecting it to be some horrible key combo 04:02:45 I re-give up on Rosegarden until I see Gregor again, because no advice I've seen makes sense 04:03:08 I added a metamacro command in Enhanced CWEB to retrieve the current section number. 04:04:40 cpressey: you can rebind keys to your heart's content anyhow (i vaguely recall i rebound Home and End to go top and bottom of scrollback instead of beginning/end of line) 04:05:02 *go to 04:06:48 *hic* 04:06:58 Sgeo: Hic? 04:07:21 hic est hiccupus 04:07:32 * Sgeo is hiccupping (and NOT drunk. I don't know if *hic* applies to non-drunk hiccups, or if *hic* in the context of drunkenness isn't actually a hiccup in any sense) 04:07:49 NOT drunk with a capital N-O-T 04:08:07 Nearly Overdosed Totally 04:08:40 Nice and Overly Tipsy 04:09:16 * cpressey is NOT, at any rate 04:09:38 ftp://ftp.mathematik.uni-muenchen.de/pub/forster/aribas/examples/queens.ari <-- OK, so ARIBAS is basically Pascal with bigints. Big whee 04:10:25 and bigfloats and a bunch of built in MathSnazziness 04:11:39 var X : Humongous Integer; 04:17:20 It occured to me a while ago that there are so many buildings on this planet, even if I was somehow able to sleep in a different building every night, there is no way I would be able to sleep in all of them. 04:17:44 Deep. 04:21:16 Deep in a stupid way. My speciality. 04:21:20 -!- Wamanuz4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:21:37 I feel sick; blargh. 04:25:31 cpressey: Unless you invent immortality. 04:25:49 And stop the building and destruction of all buildings. 04:25:58 And god I am so fucking tired and sick feeling and bed soon 04:26:38 "Arthur Dent? Arthur Phillip Dent? You are a complete git..." 04:26:53 etc. 04:26:57 alise: Go to bed 04:26:59 What a contextless quotation. 04:27:04 Oh, I see. 04:27:06 alise: It relates 04:27:10 Infinitely Prolonged. 04:27:15 cpressey: in a sec, in a sec 04:29:35 alise `seq` bed 04:30:03 Or I'll start posting links with a nonzero risk of making you feel more ill 04:31:26 oerjan: THAT MAKES NO SENSE 04:31:51 i need to burp or i will vomit 04:31:53 you think i'm treating you too strictly? 04:31:54 :| 04:32:03 oerjan: ... 04:37:51 http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=about 04:38:15 "[...] and also to help integrate other UNIX (text) processors." 04:38:37 The person behind this lives in a different world than I. 04:38:44 /create a functional "absolute" through the math sqr(x) operation 04:38:44 func_abs = .[ cascade .[ // this is the functional sequence operator 04:38:44 sqr // our square argument 04:38:44 radix_of( 2 ).extract // get the extract method of an instance of square root. 04:38:45 ] 04:38:47 ] 04:38:49 what? 04:38:51 what is that even fucking 04:38:53 that's fucking 04:38:55 you're 04:38:57 this language sucks 04:39:20 * cpressey claps in delight 04:43:29 fffffffffur 04:43:30 jsf 04:44:11 http://www.falconpl.org/index.ftd?page_id=facts has a comparison table where, under "Functional programming", only Falcon has a "yes"; Python, Perl, Lua, Javascript are all "no". Justification further down the page, tho I cannot make heads or tails of it. 04:44:33 Sorry, not Javascript -- Ruby. 04:44:57 this language is shit 04:48:07 But's it's called FALCON!!! 04:48:22 How kick-ass is THAT!!! 04:48:33 the language should be called Bear Wrestling 04:48:36 then it would be kick-ass 04:48:49 [cpressey adds Bear Wrestling to his list of esolang names to use] 04:49:15 Indeed, it is now in my "translation table." 04:49:25 Ruby? MatzLisp. Falcon? Bear Wrestling. 04:49:33 :D 04:49:44 There seems to be a "Bear" theme running through the really awful ones. 04:52:15 even the unbearable ones? 04:53:38 Rarr! 04:53:54 "I call Starfish the MapReduce of Ruby because they both do the same task: screw." -- http://tech.rufy.com/2006/08/starfish-is-mapreduce-for-ruby.html 04:54:30 Yes, I am trying to make alise even sicker so she will go to bed. 04:54:49 I call Starfish the Rabbit because they both do the same thing: screw. 04:55:18 Tabular programming? 04:56:06 Is a small library size supposed to be a _good_ thing? 04:57:19 Apparently not, for that, at least -- "This is our weak point; this is young project [...]" 04:58:45 Faaargilous and the going-to-beds 04:58:47 Oh! And of course Falcon is dual licensed, GPL/FPLL! And guess what FPLL stands for! 04:59:05 falcon public laconic license 04:59:12 falcon public locomotive license 04:59:15 falcon public lactating license 04:59:20 falcon public loser's license 04:59:48 What's so bad about this language? Although I guess I should look at a sample 05:00:16 suddenly, sgeo finds a new favourite language 05:00:26 OH NO 05:00:29 What have I done? 05:00:55 I still have yet to see a code sample 05:01:02 let us keep it that way let me bed myself 05:01:36 definitely arloo toolus 05:01:39 That sounds wrong 05:02:18 yes, well, the only way i could bed myself in that sense involves time travel or cloning 05:02:26 and i hereby support any fantasies which involve time travel or cloning 05:02:26 cpressey: YOU HAVE DOOMED US ALL 05:02:46 or possibly just Sgeo 05:03:40 alise: also wormholes 05:03:49 also wormholes. 05:04:08 (i saw some discussion about that in reference to portal somewhere) 05:04:28 Would kind of need to be in a cramped area, wouldn't it? 05:05:02 hm, i think there was a suggestion that portal portals were completely unmovable precisely to prevent this :D 05:05:02 i'm pretty sure self-penetration with portals would be impossible, the portals would have to move 05:05:09 anyway uh im turning off irc now okay 05:05:09 bye 05:05:12 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:05:36 -!- distant_figure has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 05:06:08 Well, I've seen some basic code in the tutorial 05:06:15 Nothing here that's really thrilling yet 05:06:36 loop/end is a bit ugly 05:07:45 enum seems uninspired 05:08:07 But so far, these are not "This language is horrible" issues, just "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" issues 05:09:41 The array stuff seems Pythonesque 05:10:15 "To access the first or last element of an array, for example, in loops, arrayHead and arrayTail functions can be used. They retrieve and then remove the first or last element of the array." 05:10:24 That seems... not useless, but poorly named 05:10:34 So that they look useless, but they really change the array 05:11:25 Well, there's a craptastic syntax called comma-less arrays 05:11:34 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:11:39 a2 = .[ 1 2 3 4 'a' 'b' var1 + var2 var3 * var4 .[x y z]] 05:11:45 array = .[ somesym ,[1:2] ] 05:11:56 The comma there's used to prevent it looking like somesym[1:2] 05:12:16 This seems.. prone to programmer error, more so than baseline regular programming 05:13:20 "Adding an item to a string causes the item to be converted to string and then concatenated." 05:13:25 I guess it's not that strongly typed? 05:14:33 "Contrary to strings, arrays and dictionaries, Lists are full-featured Falcon objects. " 05:15:01 I took sleepiy pills 05:15:06 I may fall asleep at any time 05:16:08 in that case, don't operate any heavy machinery 05:16:23 * Sgeo operates on oerjan 05:28:08 Has anyone published books licensed under the GNU GPL? How well does it work? 05:36:00 Would it be necessary to include a copy of the license in the appendix? 05:49:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: Why did you eat something that make you forget what you eat?). 06:21:21 -!- diofeher has left (?). 06:27:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 06:55:02 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 06:56:42 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:59:04 Today I played Washizu mahjong at anime convention. Did you play mahjong and/or anime convention, today? 07:00:37 There was not an anime convention nearby, so no, I did not. 07:00:47 And I know not how to play mahjon. 07:00:49 Mahjong, even. 07:01:04 Do you want to learn? 07:01:26 Not particularly, ATM. 07:01:29 'Tis midnight. 07:01:29 OK 07:02:19 Do you know if anyone has ever published books which are licensed under the GNU GPL? 07:02:32 Dunno. 07:04:13 Because, it is something I plan to do, "The ZZT Book". And then I want to send a free copy to Tim Sweeney and ask him to sell it, too. And include the CD or DVD with the source-codes and executables for many operating systems, in the back of the book. 07:04:45 Is this a good idea or is this bad idea, in your opinion? 07:05:08 The software is called "CZZT", however. 07:12:22 CD and DVD will increase the manufacturing costs. Better would be to have the content on some website, and use the URLs in the book. 07:15:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 07:20:33 That is just in case you have no internet connection, you can order the copy with the CD or DVD included. But it could also have URLs, like "The source-codes is available at any of the following URLs: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/czzt/czzt-src.zip http://example.org/czzt/czzt-src.tar.gz ftp://example.org/czzt/czzt-src.0.1.tar.gz gopher://zzo38computer.cjb.net/5czzt/czzt-src.zip" 07:25:44 Although, the listing would include both the source for the current version and the URL that updates for the newest version automatic. It also requires the full text of the GNU GPL, written in the book, I think. 07:35:44 -!- kwertii_ has joined. 07:39:00 The Most Ridiculous Patents: Snake Walker. Baby Bottom Art. Motorized Ice Cream Cone. Gerbil Shirt. Anti-Gravity Device. 07:39:52 -!- kwertii has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:39:53 -!- kwertii_ has changed nick to kwertii. 07:43:57 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:46:46 You see sound waves need a medium to travel in. If the air in this room was a vacuum, we would all be dead, but apart from that, we wouldn't be able to talk to each other. 07:53:59 -!- distant_figure has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:04:28 -!- relet has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:13:21 hmm 08:13:43 i think simple type checking is a case of cross serial dependencies 08:14:10 perhaps even more complex type checking 08:22:52 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:25:42 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:19:15 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 09:26:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:33:16 -!- tombom has joined. 09:46:48 -!- cheater109 has joined. 09:48:31 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:50:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:33:54 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 11:10:52 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 11:10:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:23:31 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:24:09 Vorpal: is this a permanent new identity for you, AnMaster? <-- perhaps 12:28:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:52:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:31:33 -!- Behold has joined. 13:32:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 13:33:10 -!- Behold has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 13:52:32 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 13:57:21 hm anyone know how to efficiently copy a single huge file over ethernet? scp doesn't nearly max out the capacity, and some simple tests shows that it isn't disk IO that is the bottleneck... 13:57:45 huge = 40 GB or so 14:01:21 How about netcat? If you don't mind the encryption. 14:01:35 Or lack of it, anyway. 14:02:17 fizzie, well, network is trusted yeah 14:02:47 fizzie, will it create a sparse file, I strongly suspect that it may contain quite a few zero blocks... it's a disk image 14:02:59 hm 14:02:59 I don't think it will, by default. 14:03:46 hm 14:03:47 If you don't mind temporary space-wastage, you can just netcat it, and then "cp --sparse=always image.tmp image" it to make the holes. 14:04:03 fizzie, I do mind that, since the target system doesn't have space for two copies :P 14:04:17 ah rsync might be useful here, it seems to have sparse-stuff 14:04:25 and I can do rsync without ssh here... 14:04:28 since it is trusted 14:06:45 Yes, rsync should do sparsity right. 14:07:34 * Vorpal goes to set up rsync server on one side 14:07:46 It's a bit shame that dd doesn't have a "conv=sparse" option; it could do a bit of lookahead, and on large sequences of zeros, start counting them and then seek forward in the output file. 14:09:15 fizzie, it is also annoying that you have to copy a file to make it sparse. As in, you can't make it sparse in place 14:11:23 A limitation of the userland-kernel API, I'd guess. You can only make sparse files by skipping over bytes with lseek and never writing there; there's no "hey, here's a block of zeroes, disappear them" thing. (And I guess it wouldn't be too practical to have the system try to find all zero-writes and sparsify them.) 14:11:38 hm true 14:12:21 They could've added some sort of posix_fsparsify thing, since there's fallocate and fadvise and maybe other "advanced" things, too. 14:13:46 Oh, there's even a posix_madvise function that can tell the system if you're going to access *memory* in a sequential or random fashion, or tell it you're going to need some region in the near future. (Not that it necessarily does anything on any system, but it exists.) 14:15:39 I know it exists 14:16:02 presumably useful for mmaped files 14:19:03 Also seems that since 2.6.17 there's actually been a splice(2) syscall, to move data from one fd to another with as little copying as possible. (Since sendfile is limited to "from mmap-capable file to a socket" scenarios.) 14:20:11 Oh, but splice needs one of them to be a pipe. Heh. 14:21:19 It's also a bit funny how they try to keep syscall numbering backwards-compatible, resulting in: 14:21:23 fis@eris:~$ grep uname /usr/include/asm/unistd_32.h 14:21:23 #define __NR_oldolduname 59 14:21:23 #define __NR_olduname 109 14:21:23 #define __NR_uname 122 14:21:52 Presumably after the next incompatible uname change, 59 will be oldoldolduname. 14:21:57 fizzie, so they needed to keep those the same, but read() and write() could be changed? 14:22:39 Have they made some incompetible changes to read/write, then? 14:23:47 fizzie, oh, I thought you meant the x86-64 syscall numbers. 14:24:40 Oh, that. Well, I don't think there's any need to keep those in sync. But apparently they want programs/libs that still use the oldolduname to work properly. 14:25:36 fizzie, it depends on how you break stuff though 14:25:45 It *was* a bit strange that "exit" had the prominent number 1 in 32-bit-land. 14:25:58 fizzie, why is that? 14:26:03 exit is quite an important call 14:26:21 I don't know, you only call it once, after all. :p 14:26:29 (Per process, that is.) 14:29:30 It is nice that you can load it into eax in just three bytes (xor+inc) instead of five (mov with 32-bit immediate). 14:30:02 I've sometimes wondered why there isn't a shorter "load a small number into a full 32-bit register" operation. 14:30:38 There's the sign-extending and zero-extending movsx/movzx, but those only load from memory. 14:31:58 (Okay, so it's four bytes with xor+mov into al, but still.) 15:01:28 -!- alise has joined. 15:20:13 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:22:05 http://i.imgur.com/uqRyI.jpg 15:23:01 -!- augur has joined. 15:24:43 maybe it should just give directions to the nearest airport 15:24:56 i like how it just goes in a straight line 15:25:31 Brilliant. 15:26:00 that's from japan btw in case it wasn't clear 15:26:13 to america 15:26:25 Someone must try that course for real. 15:26:37 the kayaking part is difficult. 15:26:42 esp. keeping your car 15:28:19 alise, you have no AMBITION. 15:46:46 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:47:04 -!- augur has joined. 16:24:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:57:57 "Nordic / Scandinavian Redditors -- Do You Think Your Countries Are As Awesome As They Are Often Portrayed On Reddit?" Hellooooo /r/circlejerk 16:58:47 well if that _was_ from /r/circlejerk it would be appropriate there, surely 17:00:01 it wasn't - but it should have been there 17:00:18 as should, uh, a vast majority of the front page; why isn't there a classy timewaster any more? 17:00:42 "No we're not that awesome, although the rest of the world sucks even more" 17:00:57 (not an actual quote) 17:01:39 i'd like to live in a nordic country but that's because (a) I don't like hot weather and (b) they have fast internet, as much as (c) better sociopolitical climate than the UK 17:02:21 alise, Nordic countries have hot summers IIRC. 17:02:54 Britain just has fairly uniform cool, wet weather. 17:03:01 Not hot hot summers. 17:03:06 Depends where you are. 17:03:22 iirc 26 degrees is considered a heatwave in Norway; wasn't it, oerjan? 17:03:46 well i don't know about the technical definition :D 17:03:50 Well, the summers here can be experienced with a woolen jumper on. 17:03:53 but it felt that way 17:04:11 Phantom_Hoover: not this summer 17:04:26 alise, well, I am probably insane. 17:04:42 And you are, after all, in south England. 17:04:56 No -- I'm not. 17:04:59 What gave you that impression? 17:05:00 Oh, wait, you're not. 17:05:09 Hexham is north-east. 17:05:11 A terrible grasp of English geography. 17:05:17 I just googled it again. 17:05:20 :) 17:05:40 I have a terrible grasp of Scottish, Irish and Welsh geography as well. 17:05:49 I have a terrible grasp of [...] geography. 17:06:02 Where's Tanzania? 17:06:21 Near New Zealand. 17:06:28 ...wait. 17:06:32 I thought you said Tazmania. 17:06:40 Yep, you're right about [...]. 17:06:54 new warehouse 13 and eureka! :D :D :D 17:06:58 Aaaand 17:07:02 I forgot that New Zealand =/= Australia. 17:07:10 And that it's called Tasmania. 17:07:15 Worst. Thinko. Ever. 17:07:16 I have, in the past, mistaken Leicester for Leinster. 17:07:36 alise: well, its SORT of near new zealand 17:07:42 augur: Yeah. SORT of. 17:08:00 In the same way that Canada is near the US, and Scotland is near England. 17:10:28 um not if it's tanzania you're talking about 17:10:45 (that's near madagascar, of course) 17:11:58 tasmania 17:12:54 The A1 is INHABITED BY GNOMES 17:13:03 what is A1 17:13:19 alise, the road? 17:14:05 Yes. 17:14:09 Also, the paper size. 17:14:24 well it should be big enough for a gnome 17:14:26 alise, what kind of gnomes? 17:15:09 Invariably variable gnomes. 17:15:38 ANSWER ME THIS: Why do music daemons suck? 17:15:38 underpants gnomes 17:16:16 Wow, linking ffmpeg to libao is hideously difficult: http://nikolai.luthman.name/misc/queue.c 17:16:28 Almost enough to make me use libxine. ... almost. 17:16:30 alise: because they're actually succubi 17:16:37 Why isn't there a libmplayer? 17:16:40 alise, dunno. All the great composers went to hell. 17:16:45 oerjan: you win 17:16:46 Xine is considered bad? 17:16:51 Sgeo: awful 17:17:01 o.O 17:17:54 hell is near tasmania. at least, they have devils both places. 17:19:49 oerjan, no. 17:23:37 It's obviously professional software development. 17:24:09 * oerjan sees no contradiction there 17:24:32 why can't they have professional software development near tasmania 17:26:37 oerjan, not just near Tasmania. 17:27:00 -!- Gregor has joined. 17:27:09 pikhq: You're right, wildly insufficient FLACitude. 17:27:23 Don't give me none of that flakitude. 17:27:24 well they're all outsourced _now_, of course 17:27:27 My alternate recording of Op. 11 has FLAC. I should rerecord Op. 10 to add FLAC too. 17:27:47 ALSO: OMG Hulu just made my day again 17:28:03 I'm watching Saturday morning cartoons (Rocky and Bullwinkle) on Saturday morning! 17:28:25 but before that outsourcing craze started, say a hundred years ago, i doubt you'd find it much outside hell 17:28:37 (near tasmania, as already established) 17:28:50 oerjan, what about the native Tasmanians? 17:28:58 Were they the developers? 17:29:03 Note to self: xfce4-panel sucks. 17:29:58 alise: I disagree. 17:30:17 as is well known, the native tasmanians were exterminated by the english invaders, so it's a bit hard to ask them now. well, i suppose you could find some remaining in hell, if you'd like to go there 17:30:19 Gregor: Okay; xfce4-panel sucks IF YOU'RE NOT USING ALL THE REST OF XFCE. 17:30:51 alise: OK, that I'll agree with :P 17:30:54 But XFCE is awesome :P 17:31:00 Want a nice little menu to start programs with? OOPS LOL YOU CAN ONLY CREATE A LAUNCHER WITH "SUB-LAUNCHER" SHIT, AND THAT MEANS YOUR LAUNCHER'S ICON AND NAME ARE INCLUDED IN THE MENU ITSELF FOR NO REAL REASON, MEANING YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH SOME MENU ICON AND "PROGRAMS" AS YOUR LAST MENU ITEM EVEN THOUGH IT DOES NOTHING 17:31:12 oerjan, what software did they develop? 17:31:33 Want to make the background something that doesn't glare for attention since it uses your regular GTK+ background colours? LOL HAVE FUN MODIFYING YOUR THEME FILE AND FINDING IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONFIGURE ALL THE COLOURS 17:31:59 Gregor: xfce may be awesome but pekwm is more awesomerest. 17:32:22 Phantom_Hoover: how the hell should i know? i said they're all exterminated. 17:32:41 sheesh 17:32:49 oerjan, so what software is written in hell these days? 17:32:57 all of it 17:33:16 lots of php and java, obviously 17:33:30 oerjan, oh, that explains it. 17:33:55 So Google is obviously trying to muscle in on hell's territory, so Oracle are suing them. 17:34:12 Boycott Satanist software! 17:34:31 WHY ISN'T THERE A LIBMPLAYER. 17:35:13 alise, poor design? 17:36:17 alise: There is, it's called FFMPEG :P 17:37:16 Gregor: Yeah, libavcodec can't actually output to an audio device; to do that, you need something like libao. 17:37:40 Gregor: Would you like to see the code sticking libavcodec and libao together? 17:37:40 Gregor: http://nikolai.luthman.name/misc/queue.c 17:37:47 Nope 17:37:51 NOW do you see why I want a libmplayer? 17:37:51 I would not like to see that. 17:37:59 Gregor: Protip: It's fucking ugly. 17:39:11 Oh, and I'd just use mpd, except it can't do something as fucking simple as "make a playlist out of the entire library and keep it updated". 17:39:32 I'd just use xmms2 except that all xmms2 clients are _shit_ 17:40:49 libmplayer would be absolutely wonderful. 17:41:00 Yes. 17:41:03 I'd write an SDL GUI for it and VOILA. 17:41:15 MY PHONE HAS HAD ITS SUCK REDUCED BY ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE 17:41:16 I'd write a GTK+ GUI for it because SDL sucks for interfaces :P 17:41:21 Oh, for your phone. 17:41:27 I suggest selling it and buying some other phone. 17:41:31 Say, anything but a Palm phone. 17:41:34 alise: I spent nothing on it. 17:41:38 ... eh bash just abort()ed 17:41:43 I think 17:41:57 wait, no it was just strange formatting of glibc double free 17:42:03 missing the stack trace 17:42:06 (it's a contract phone, but I don't pay the phone bill, so.) 17:42:49 pikhq: MPlayer_Context *ctx = mplayer_create_context(); mplayer_set_ao(ctx, MPLAYER_AO_OSS); mplayer_play_async(ctx, "foo.ogg"); 17:43:04 Or Something. 17:43:09 alise: Mmmm. 17:43:43 alise: Also: the UI is actually quite nice on here. 17:43:51 Thank God they stopped using Palm OS. 17:44:23 pikhq: Yes, it's really nice until you notice it's hideously slow, then you try any other phone and your jaw drops. 17:44:45 jwz soldiered with the Pre, the Pixi's big brother, for months before finally giving up and /buying an iPhone/ 17:44:57 jwz? 17:45:02 ... So I'm tempted to port Android to it... 17:45:37 Phantom_Hoover: Jamie Zawinski, Netscape programmer, XEmacs (Lucid Emacs) programmer, now nightclub owner, genius. 17:45:47 You should probably already know who he is. 17:46:00 Thought the screenname was familiar. 17:46:32 Was he the one who said that solving a problem with regexes yielded two problems? 17:46:53 alise: Homebrew on the Palm makes it much more usable. First things first, replace the damned kernel. 17:47:33 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 17:47:38 /o/ 17:47:38 | 17:47:39 >\ 17:47:43 Phantom_Hoover: He's the one that quoted it from someone else and then everyone decided he said it. 17:47:50 alise, ah. 17:48:11 Wow, jwz.org has been "redesigned" (it's now in a sans-serif font and the page width is smaller). 17:48:20 Also the hexdump on the front page gives you a headache because it scrolls. 17:48:29 Phantom_Hoover: he also popularised the "Worse is Better" essay. 17:48:49 * Phantom_Hoover → food 17:49:27 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:50:02 What's bizarro is that the Palm Pre ships underclocked by default... 17:50:08 For BATTERY! 17:50:35 alise: No, I mean: max CPU speed it'll run at is underclocked. 17:50:50 I think the original iPhone did that for BATTRAY. 17:51:01 It will only go "up" to 600 MHz, on a 1 GHz CPU... 17:51:56 The state of smartphones is rather dismal; the only acceptable ones are basically the high-end Android phones, and the iPhone -- ignoring the political bullshit, 4 still has a bunch of antenna issues and crap 17:52:02 And, of course, the political bullshit /matters/. 17:52:37 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:52:41 I've just stuck with my original iPhone and it's been "fine". 17:54:14 The Galaxy S seems quite appealing; Gregor has one, I think. 17:54:27 I have a Moment. 17:54:36 Can I have a Moment, please? 17:54:40 HRYUK HYUK HURTH 17:54:42 I need my hardware keyboard. 17:54:51 Who makes the Moment? 17:54:53 What's appealing is an Eee in smartphone form. 17:54:54 :P 17:54:55 (You do!) 17:54:58 (IN MY HEEAAAART) 17:55:01 pikhq: But the Eee is shit. 17:55:58 alise, what's the political bullshit? 17:56:07 Phantom_Hoover: Apple hates developers. 17:56:09 Phantom_Hoover: app store. closed source. Apple are fuckwits. etc. 17:56:18 the app store TOS is basically "1984 -- the programmer's edition!". 17:56:47 They seem to like making Ballmer seem reasonable when he chants "Developers developers developers". 17:57:08 Samsung Intercept, what an awesome phone name 17:57:15 INTERCEPT 17:57:27 "Droid X", "Droid 2", I detect a theme here. 17:58:00 Sooo, has any non-iPhone phone got a 960x640 IPS display yet? 17:58:04 No? Didn't think so ... 17:58:24 Come on, guys, just invest shit in your phones and you can make money :P 17:59:49 They hate money. 18:00:01 And love making bizarre decisions. 18:00:14 (Javascript. UI. Embedded device. WHY?) 18:00:32 Because it's WEB 7.4 18:00:48 ANYONE who knows Javascript and our insane custom system can write a terrible app! Anyone! 18:01:53 * Phantom_Hoover desperately wants a manual typewriter 18:02:10 I broke an electronic typewriter in under one day. 18:03:21 Banshee is such a piece of shit. 18:03:28 "iTunes: The GNOME edition!" 18:04:15 So close just to using DeaDBeeF here. 18:05:17 I <3 /dev/dsp 18:05:19 It's so cool! 18:05:44 /dev/dsp is sound output? 18:06:03 Yes; for OSS-based systems, including OSSv4. 18:06:12 -!- alise has left (?). 18:06:12 It's also sound input. 18:06:15 -!- alise has joined. 18:06:29 In older OSS versions -- before 4 -- only one program could write to /dev/dsp at a time, thus monopolising sound. 18:06:39 But in 4, anyone can write to it and it automatically gets sent to the mixer. 18:06:51 alise: This was only true for devices without hardware mixing. 18:06:55 So you can do "cat /dev/urandom >/dev/dsp" and have other sound running too and it Just Works. 18:07:00 pikhq: True. 18:07:03 But still. 18:07:06 Which everything had when OSS was popularised... 18:07:16 Yeah, but did anything configure it properly? 18:07:17 Not really. 18:07:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 18:07:29 If there was hardware mixing then it "just worked". 18:07:35 * Phantom_Hoover starts catting everything into /dev/dsp 18:07:50 It only got to be a problem when cards got cheaper. 18:08:05 Phantom_Hoover: You can cat WAVs there, though there's a blip of noise at the start when it tries to audioify the WAV header. 18:08:17 Catting MP3s and the like will just produce noise, obviously; it accepts raw PCM data. 18:08:17 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:08:37 alise, no, I mean /usr/bin/sbcl 18:08:44 The static is quite interesting. 18:08:50 What's irritating is that ALSA's OSS emulation is still so retarded that writing to /dev/dsp monopolises sound. 18:10:16 Phantom_Hoover: Try "sudo cat /dev/sd[abc...] >/dev/dsp". 18:10:26 alise, no. 18:10:29 Phantom_Hoover: Why not? 18:10:41 It'd last forever. 18:10:43 The patterns can be very interesting; you can almost hear the disk structure. 18:10:45 Phantom_Hoover: So terminate it. 18:10:45 Ah, I'll try it. 18:10:46 C-c 18:11:00 Phantom_Hoover: The drive headers sound quite thoroughly interesting at parts, though there are bits of silence. 18:11:09 Smaller drives are probably better; e.g. USB sticks. 18:11:10 alise, trying 18:11:18 Phantom_Hoover: You can also try specific partitions. 18:12:04 alise, rather more interesting. 18:12:27 It gives a rhythmic pulse for /home, after some noise at the start. 18:12:49 For /home? 18:12:52 How do you cat a directory? 18:12:56 Separate partition. 18:12:59 Ah. 18:13:11 So that I could switch to 64-bit easily. 18:14:12 Phantom_Hoover: sudo cat /dev/mem >/dev/dsp 18:14:16 Yes, that does exactly what you think it does. 18:14:26 Fails after a bit though; "operation not permitted". 18:14:59 Now that really is interesting. 18:15:21 Phantom_Hoover: If you can spit out sine waves, you can generate tones to /dev/dsp. 18:15:23 alise: /dev/kmem! 18:15:30 pikhq: "Bad address". 18:15:33 Aaaw. 18:15:51 Phantom_Hoover: There's Brainfuck programs that play audio. 18:15:55 Via /dev/dsp 18:15:56 :) 18:15:57 "No such file or directory" 18:16:01 For /dev/kmem 18:16:12 Phantom_Hoover: Whaa? 18:16:30 Yep. 18:21:55 Phantom_Hoover: pipe this to /dev/dsp: 18:21:59 import math 18:21:59 import sys 18:21:59 i = 0.0 18:21:59 while True: 18:21:59 sys.stdout.write(chr(round(math.sin(i/10)*100) + 100)) 18:22:00 i += 0.1 18:22:03 cat | python >/dev/dsp 18:22:05 paste that in 18:22:06 ^D 18:24:10 alise, sec 18:25:34 Phantom_Hoover: also: 18:25:35 import math 18:25:35 import sys 18:25:35 i = 0 18:25:35 while True: 18:25:35 sys.stdout.write(chr((i/3) % 256)) 18:25:37 i += 1 18:27:27 pikhq: How can I make mplayer -vo caca output to the tty, not a new window? 18:32:28 * alise says "fuck it" installs deadbeef 18:34:12 *"fuck it", 18:37:58 http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/camera/SexAndSmartPhones.png Hmm. 18:38:15 http://cdn.okcimg.com/blog/camera/SexAndSmartPhonesByAge.png 18:43:22 ...and of course deadbeef is /also/ inadequate because it can't just update a playlist of a directory. sigh 18:47:04 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:47:20 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 18:47:39 I cannot believe how rubbish this software is. And I'm actually trying it, rather than just dismissing it! :p 18:51:19 You know, Star Control II has a very Lovecraftian feel about it. 19:01:23 pikhq: I stand corrected -- Ex Falso has MusicBrainz integration. 19:02:10 pikhq: Via a plugin. 19:03:50 -!- jcp has joined. 19:04:34 alise: Woots. 19:05:20 pikhq: Thus allowing you to look up the tags of an album with MusicBrainz, tweak the result, then have it rename them properly and move them to your music folder, all in one UI. 19:05:48 alise: Nice. 19:05:59 * alise also notes that Quod Libet, of which Ex Falso is a subproject, appears to be the only reasonable graphical music program that exists on Linux. 19:07:02 Hmm. Gentoo packages Quod Libet, but not Ex Falso seperately. 19:08:34 It probably includes Ex Falso. 19:08:40 Quod Libet is a damn good program anyway, so no harm :P 19:08:43 :P 19:08:45 It does. 19:09:05 pikhq: You may need to install a quodlibet-plugins type package, and possibly the Python MusicBrainz bindings, for it to appear in Ex Falso's plugin list. 19:09:30 * pikhq fetches quodlibet-plugins 19:09:40 http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1228 19:10:27 Aaaaand Dbus error. 19:10:32 pikhq: Ignore it. 19:10:35 pikhq: It works perfectly fine without DBus. 19:10:38 It's just checking if DBus is there. 19:10:47 "Who would win in a fight: the Enterprise or the Millenium Falcon? And NO, the correct answer is not "the audience". The correct answer is that this scenario is ludicrous and impossible!" -- T-Rex 19:11:40 alise: No, I mean, it *crashes* because of an error with DBus. 19:11:45 ERROR:dbus.proxies:Introspect error on :1.0:/org/freedesktop/Hal/Manager: dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.AccessDenied: Rejected send message, 1 matched rules; type="method_call", sender=":1.42" (uid=1000 pid=18506 comm="/usr/bin/python2.6) interface="org.freedesktop.DBus.Introspectable" member="Introspect" error name="(unset)" requested_reply=0 destination=":1.0" (uid=0 pid=14778 comm="/usr/sbin/hald)) 19:11:54 pikhq: What ... 19:11:58 pikhq: I suggest disabling DBus. 19:12:24 pikhq: Seriously, that's some DBus/HAL bullshit, you'll never figure it out. Why do you have HAL? 19:12:35 I think it was enabled back from when I had KDE. 19:12:42 Now... No reason at all. 19:12:47 I suggest disabling HAL and then being happy. 19:13:50 I shall. 19:14:02 Victory! 19:14:09 Don't disable HAL! He's just been given conflicting orders! 19:14:48 pikhq: After enabling the plugin and configuring it, right click files and select MusicBrainz lookup, btw. 19:15:28 pikhq: HOWSOEVER it appears that it doesn't use hashing or anything, just searching. 19:15:43 I am most thoroughly disappointed! Oh well, it's still good at everything that isn't MusicBrainz lookup. 19:17:00 Such as love. 19:17:47 :P 19:17:48 "Embed cover images into tags" THIS HAS ALWAYS MADE ME SOMEWHAT UNEASY 19:19:41 pikhq: Picard does have the issue of an utterly inscrutable interface, however. 19:20:47 pikhq: Good lord, Picard tags excessively. "performer:electric guitar". "musicbrainz_so_many_damn_things". "barcode". "asin". "albumartistsort". 19:21:35 "Use folksonomy tags as genre" *groan* 19:23:46 alise: Yes, it tags a lot. 19:24:18 pikhq: Any way to ... make it more conservative? 19:26:29 pikhq: But it takes a PLUGIN just to get the disc number in a separate field! Ha! 19:27:45 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:27:59 -!- augur has joined. 19:28:24 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:39:55 GRAAAAR 19:47:34 pikhq: For some reason, quodlibet does not like the tag ~album~discnumber~discsubtitle. 19:47:39 I cannot find a single reason for this to be true. 19:48:05 Why? WHY?! 19:48:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:54:44 * pikhq has been fetching covers. 19:54:46 Whoo. 19:54:54 pikhq: Ex Falso can do that ... :P 19:55:10 pikhq: I remember the good old days, when iTunes had a flaw that allowed you to download 600x600 covers for shit. 19:55:20 alise: Yes, I've been doing that in Quod Libet. 19:55:23 Was lovely. There was a script to do it and all. 19:56:15 -!- relet has joined. 19:56:16 And Quod Libet seems to dislike the musicbrainz_albumid tag being different between two discs of albums. 19:56:26 It does. 19:56:27 I have two discs of the same album, and they don't get merged in the Album List. 19:56:27 Make sure they have the same name (i.e. without "(disc x)" on the end). If they are still not merged, they have different labelid or musicbrainz_albumid tags. If they have different label ID tags, delete the incorrect one. If they have different MusicBrainz album ID tags, add a labelid tag that is the same for both albums. 19:56:31 --FAQ 19:56:37 It's a bit reasonable, but also not. 19:57:16 It's quite annoying. 19:57:22 Yes. 19:57:26 You could just delete those tags. They're dumb. 19:57:35 I have been. 19:58:18 pikhq: BTW, take a look at ~/.quodlibet/current. 19:58:38 There's also ~/.quodlibet/control, which I gather accepts commands of some sort. 19:59:01 Yeah, echo next >~/.quodlibet/control works. 19:59:25 Hmm. 19:59:35 However, I still can't get it to show this particular column header. :-) 20:00:15 Or, yes I can! Hooray! 20:00:42 Now how does one... 20:00:52 um, musicbrainz have release groups 20:01:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:01:04 *has, god dammit! 20:01:05 for grouping multiple discs from the same album 20:01:15 Can you please just never mistake have/has again. As a general tip pick the opposite of what you always do. 20:01:17 >_> 20:01:59 pikhq: The best feature of Quod Libet: The release names come from the current Dinosaur Comic at the time of release. 20:02:18 alise, you never complain when I use the right one, so that doesn't work. 20:02:29 Vorpal: you never use the right one 20:02:35 and I know which one is the right, it is just that I forget to think about it. 20:02:58 alise, and that statement is not true. 20:04:12 Hey, KDE redesigned their website. If only they redesigned KDE too. 20:04:26 KDE4 doesn't count? 20:04:32 4.5, wowzers; I wonder in which ways it's exactly identical to the previous version. 20:04:42 Ooh, looks like ALL THE WAYS! 20:05:38 Maybe it will be less crashtastic? (Last time I used KDE was in 3.x on Kubuntu, so it's been a while) 20:05:52 Qt is all C++ish :/ 20:06:06 It doesn't crash. But it does suck. 20:08:32 Well, crashiness was always my biggest problem with KDE 20:08:39 Maybe I should try it again 20:08:39 Your hardware probably just sucks. 20:08:45 No. 20:08:46 It's crap. 20:09:05 * Sgeo continues to learn Falcon 20:09:12 Wow. 20:09:18 cpressey is laughing in his Internetless. 20:09:33 The one thing we single out for being *hopelessly terrible*, you start learning. 20:09:50 I want to see how it's terrible 20:10:07 Suuure. 20:10:12 alise: Beautiful. 20:10:49 21:08:07 But so far, these are not "This language is horrible" issues, just "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" issues 20:11:01 Please never say "This language doesn't turn me on and make me wet" again. 20:11:02 Ever. 20:11:43 Actually, I think it would be pretty hard for a language to do that to any member in this channel, since we're all male. 20:12:27 If the language were awesome enough, it would make me female 20:12:32 Just so it could do that 20:12:59 I think Sgeo has secret desires he is not quite ready to admit openly to the world, so he encodes them in statements about programming languages. 20:13:23 * Sgeo doesn't actually want to be female 20:13:34 Your secret's safe with us. 20:18:09 [ehird@dinky ~]$ nethack 20:18:09 bash: nethack: command not found 20:18:10 WHAT 20:18:11 :p 20:21:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:23:07 alise, just telnet to NAO. 20:24:25 Phantom_Hoover: No, it's slow. 20:24:33 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 20:25:06 alise, well, it's bearable if you use ^ or shift when moving through corridors. 20:26:11 I'd rather just get the Home Experience. 20:26:22 Well, crashiness was always my biggest problem with KDE <-- I never had KDE 3.5.x crash 20:26:48 3.0.x a few times iirc 20:26:48 Various applications would crash 20:26:55 Note that this was Kubuntu, so 20:27:52 ah 20:27:56 that could explain a lot 20:29:26 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:29:30 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 20:32:32 You know, I might just give up and install a shitty desktop environment. 20:33:59 * pikhq does some Replay Gain on it all... Mmm. 20:34:03 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:34:25 pikhq: Quod Libet actually uses album replaygain /except/ when shuffling, where it uses track replaygain. Which is awesome. 20:34:37 RANDOM QUOD LIBET FACTS, brought to you by alise. 20:34:39 alise: Yeah, that is actually really awesome. 20:34:53 Now if only it showed my custom column of insanity! 20:35:02 Use album ReplayGain when you would want it, and track ReplayGain when you would want it. 20:35:05 Awesome. 20:36:30 what exactly is replaygain? 20:37:22 Vorpal: the semi-solution to the loundness war 20:37:39 Vorpal: basically, a metal track from the 80s is much quieter than a mild pop song from the 2000s 20:37:44 Vorpal: this is because of mixing trends etc. 20:37:53 Vorpal: replaygain calculates this, cleverly, restoring the dynamics across the ages 20:37:59 so the metal song will be louder than the pop song, no matter when they're from 20:38:17 album replaygain is replaygain applied to a whole album as a unit, rather than a track; this is so that the dynamics are stable across songs, and segues are retained 20:38:31 alise, why not make a standard for recording level? 20:38:39 -!- tombom has joined. 20:38:39 ... 20:38:40 wow 20:38:42 And essentially it just does the volume-adjusting that you would do automatically. 20:39:07 Vorpal: I know you Swedes are totally down with socialism, but did you really just propose LAWS on MIXING MUSIC? 20:39:17 alise: The RIAA *used* to actually have such a standard. 20:39:26 It went by the wayside with the end of vinyl. 20:39:27 Yes ... the RIAA ... always the best organisation to imitate ... 20:39:37 This was when the RIAA wasn't entirely evil. 20:39:41 Just *largely* evil. 20:39:42 :P 20:39:44 alise, is this thing able to handle that some music isn't using the full dynamic range? A quiet nocturne shouldn't be as loud as some heavy metal for example 20:39:55 Vorpal: yes, that is the whole point of it 20:40:06 alise, neat, how does it figure that out? 20:40:10 Vorpal: "mathematics" 20:40:14 Replay Gain works by first performing a psychoacoustic analysis of an entire audio track to measure peak levels and perceived loudness. The difference between the measured perceived loudness and the desired target loudness is calculated; this is considered the ideal replay gain value (the target loudness of most Replay Gain utilities is 89 dB SPL — 6 dB higher than the Replay Gain specification and SMPTE recommendation[1]). Usually, the gain value and th 20:40:14 e peak value are then stored as metadata in the audio file, allowing Replay Gain-capable audio players to automatically attenuate or amplify the signal so that tracks will play at a similar loudness level. This avoids the common problem of having to manually adjust volume levels when playing audio files from albums that have been mastered at different levels. Should the audio at its original levels be desired (e.g., for burning back to hard copy), the meta 20:40:15 data can simply be ignored. 20:40:59 hm 20:41:21 It's a bit of a hack to get around shitty mixing, but it *is* rather nice. 20:41:29 "desired target loudness" being? 20:41:33 Even with good mixing, there'd still be variations due to personal taste. 20:41:40 alise: True, but much less so. 20:41:45 Vorpal: 89 dB (the standard is 6 dB lower but nobody goes by that) 20:41:50 Vorpal: of course, this is then adjusted by your volume control. 20:42:45 The idea being that you end up not having to fiddle with your volume settings so that you can hear stuff or not go deaf. 20:42:48 /o/ 20:42:48 | 20:42:49 /\ 20:43:04 Where's Gregor? 20:43:24 alise, that doesn't seem to address the issue I mentioned above, if I shuffle music and I have some quiet piano music and some heavy metal, I probably *don't* want them to be played back at the same volume, while I probably want to compensate for the time they were recorded at 20:43:33 or am I missing something important here? 20:43:38 Vorpal: that is exactly what it does 20:43:43 the piano music will be quieter 20:43:48 no matter what decade the two were mixed at 20:44:05 the stupid thing you are thinking of is called "volume normalisation" etc. and it is dumb; ReplayGain is not that 20:44:05 hum. Is that from the "psychoacoustic analysis" stuff? 20:44:08 pretty much 20:44:19 I don't understand the mathematics behind it; I only know that it works well. 20:44:49 so we just moved the issue to a black box called "psychoacoustic analysis". Fun :) 20:44:59 Uh, what? 20:45:03 You use it and it solves the problem. 20:45:06 alise, right 20:45:07 This is a common thing, though. 20:45:13 Maybe you don't understand it, I don't for instance. 20:45:16 It's part of the functioning of all lossy audio codecs. 20:45:17 :) 20:45:19 But it's not like you can't just check. 20:45:27 pikhq: but replaygain is NOT lossy, mind 20:45:41 Vorpal: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/contents.html 20:45:44 Vorpal: you can read the spec :P 20:45:45 pikhq, okay. It just seems like some kind of black magic being able to tell how loud some music really is. 20:46:02 btw 20:46:07 radio replaygain = track replaygain 20:46:10 audiophile replaygain = album replaygain 20:46:13 the spec uses older terms 20:46:22 and pretend the desired volume level is 6 dB higher than it says to match tools 20:46:43 Vorpal: http://replaygain.hydrogenaudio.org/calculating_rg.html 20:46:44 alise, can in a bit, I'm doing heavy lifting of data atm. 20:46:46 Vorpal: there's the how-it-works 20:46:55 opening browser atm would be suicidal. 20:47:17 well, lynx would probably work 20:47:24 it will work with lynx 20:48:48 incidentally, the 83 dB SPL level is probably better than the 89 dB level used by tools, but it doesn't matter since you can just use your volume control 20:48:55 not sure why tools differ from the spec, but they all do, universally 20:49:09 Vorpal: BTW, most of what it does is recognise that things are too *loud* and make them more quiet. It won't actually adjust properly-mixed things too much. 20:49:20 alise, anyway, wrt "LAWS on MIXING MUSIC": no. No one has to follow Red Book standard either. There is no law forcing that, 20:49:24 s/,/./ 20:49:31 err, the last , 20:50:17 well i agree that recommendations would be good, but there's always an element of personal taste 20:50:39 pikhq, anyway, isn't the peak on non-classical recordings these days usually something like 0.01 dB from max? 20:50:53 Vorpal: pop recordings now clip 20:50:55 all of them 20:51:00 alise, ... wtf 20:51:04 that's just stupid 20:51:09 Particularly when lossy-compressed. 20:51:11 Vorpal: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/GiveItAwayLoudnessComparison.png 20:51:18 ReplayGain makes it actually clip less. 20:51:20 Vorpal: on top: 1991 mastering of "Give it Away", by Red Hot Chili Peppers. 20:51:23 Vorpal: on bottom, 2003 mastering. 20:51:27 Vorpal: note the incessant clipping. 20:51:42 alise, will check that later, lynx can't do it. 20:52:00 alise, is it clipped on CD too? 20:52:08 Vorpal: imagine a constant clip; now imagine very slight, occasional dips down to maybe 0.1 dB less 20:52:13 Vorpal: yes 20:52:19 Vorpal: those images are from the cd 20:52:34 why... that just means the sound is distorted... 20:52:43 That is the *actual mixing*. 20:52:56 Vorpal: Because it sounds better in cars. 20:52:58 And on the radio. 20:53:01 alise, it does? 20:53:04 The listener never misses a single thing. It's LOUD! 20:53:06 Vorpal: Well, no. 20:53:11 Vorpal: But it does to idiots. 20:53:19 Vorpal: Otherwise it's "too quiet"; i.e. has dynamic range. 20:53:27 The irony being that it's a moot point on radio stations, anyways. 20:53:40 Since the radio will actually do the damned limiting, anyways. 20:53:43 alise, if I want louder I just increase whatever volume control(s) my playback device has 20:53:54 Generally with better (non-clipping) settings. 20:54:00 hm 20:54:25 why clip it? Why not just compress the dynamic range? 20:54:37 in cars that would actually be a useful feature. 20:54:43 Vorpal: they compress it to maximum volume. 20:54:44 Because setting the compression to clipping is "louder". 20:55:10 argh 20:55:19 And louder is better! 20:55:29 Stupid idea: a CAS written in Coq. 20:55:32 Otherwise people will hear the other peoples' music and not ours!!! 20:55:34 Phantom_Hoover: not stupid 20:55:35 Phantom_Hoover: well, relatively 20:55:57 alise, for a given value of "stupid". 20:56:21 Until I fond out how codata works, I refuse to acknowledge its uses. 20:56:26 pikhq, in cars a non-clipping dynamic range compression feature would actually be nice. Some music I like have huge dynamic range, in cars it needs to be compressed to always be audible without being clipped. Too loud isn't nice either 20:56:27 s/fond/find/ 20:56:34 so that would be useful 20:56:48 Phantom_Hoover: sec 20:56:50 clipping is just.... stupid 20:56:53 Phantom_Hoover: i'll find you a tutorial 20:57:24 Phantom_Hoover: http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/html/Coinductive.html 20:57:25 pikhq, when I checked some classical cds I have, they generally peak at -2.3 dB or such for modern ones, and even lower for older ones 20:57:30 alise, I know that it has something to do with eliminating from the set of all possible things rather than building from nothing, but that's all. And probably inaccurate. 20:57:42 Vorpal: Let me just say that I wish the sound engineers who work on classical music would work on other music too. 20:57:45 pikhq, I guess people listening to classical would never accept clipped 20:57:50 Phantom_Hoover: that's basically wrong 20:57:52 alise, indeed 20:57:52 Phantom_Hoover: http://adam.chlipala.net/cpdt/html/Coinductive.html 20:57:58 alise, will read. 20:58:04 well it might be right in some sense 20:58:06 Vorpal: Yes, classical gets mixed properly. 20:58:06 but it's not useful 20:58:38 alise: Many of the sound engineers actually get *forced* to do the loudness thing. 20:58:43 pikhq, I guess that is because those "idiots" alise referred to above never listen to classical 20:58:58 alise: By the band and/or the managers. 20:59:08 i'm imagining classical booming from a convertible car now 20:59:16 rich shithead teenager inside 20:59:24 bothering everyone on the street :D 21:00:23 alise, I listened to classical while in car. The problem is that it has too much dynamic range a lot of the time. So either you don't hear the quiet parts, or you hear them but your ears get destroyed from the loud parts 21:00:40 Vorpal: Yes, cars should have a built-in compression system. 21:00:41 alise, so a compression button in the car stereo would be nice, which does it without clipping 21:00:47 alise, exactly 21:01:14 pikhq: what's the quality of the cover art on musicbrainz like? 21:01:16 pikhq: crap? 21:01:24 alise: Random. 21:01:47 i'll stick to exfalso/quodlibet then 21:01:51 for cover art 21:01:59 Yuh. 21:02:31 alise, personally I never felt a need for cover art 21:02:36 I might have to write a script that strips *sort, asin, barcode, musicbrainz_*, organization, performer*, and releasecountry from files 21:02:42 and reduces date to a year 21:02:47 Picard is crazy with its tags 21:02:54 Vorpal: it's just decoration. some cover art is very nice 21:03:01 It's nice that it's automatic, but it *is* a bit over-the-top. 21:03:38 alise, hm. 21:03:48 hell, the cover of "The Dark Side of the Moon" has become iconic 21:04:14 As has "Abbey Road". 21:04:14 alise, having musicbrainz_ id tags is useful, makes it easy to fetch updates to the various tags 21:04:23 Vorpal: basically cover art is there for the same reason as any other packaging, choice of typefaces, whatever... the extended "release" beyond the music 21:04:26 & included photographs, etc 21:04:38 as opposed to just releasing an undecorated cd in a case with no markings 21:04:55 even band names, album titles, track titles are aesthetic decisions in this way 21:05:40 I wish this laptop had better speakers. 21:06:48 Okay, if I don't find a decent panel program soon I'm just going to install a DE. 21:08:44 heh 21:09:59 Is autopickup good or bad? I forget. 21:12:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:12:49 Hi ais523. 21:12:52 ais523: is autopickup good or bad? 21:14:19 alise: in NetHack? 21:14:28 good, but only if you change the settings from the insane defaults to sane values 21:14:43 Is there a quick line to do that with? 21:14:50 I'm getting a friend set up to play Nethack and I've forgotten everything myself. 21:15:28 in the RC file: OPTIONS=pickup_types:/="$? 21:15:39 Okay. 21:15:41 or in-game, you can do it via pickup_types in the options, turn on the same set of item types 21:15:51 OPTIONS=boulder:0, decgraphics, color, autodig, !cmdassist, norest_on_space, pickup_types:/="$? 21:15:53 That reasonable? 21:16:13 isn't it !rest_on_space? 21:16:23 Apparently not ... 21:16:29 also, autodig can be a bit dubious at times, especially if you aren't used to it 21:16:34 and OK 21:16:38 Hmm, wait, it is !rest_on_space. 21:16:39 Silly wiki. 21:16:56 OPTIONS=boulder:0, decgraphics, color, !cmdassist, !rest_on_space, pickup_types:/="$? 21:17:01 Wait, it's normally off. 21:18:24 ais523: is there any way to choose what pet you start with? 21:18:33 pettype:dog 21:18:41 but it has to be a legal one for the class 21:18:48 valkryies can do either right? 21:18:50 yep 21:19:32 alise: I'm working on my own NetHack fork atm, incidentally 21:19:49 (besides, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't do cat/dog at random, given that they're basically identical) 21:20:40 Personal preference! 21:27:11 ais523: do you know of a good nethack tutorial i can point him to now it's set up? 21:27:19 i'm not nearly a good enough player to teach him 21:27:29 I'm aware that there's a reasonably good one, but I've forgotten what it's called 21:27:32 * ais523 tries to find it again 21:28:02 I think it might be http://www.melankolia.net/nethack/nethack.guide.html 21:28:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:28:20 (it's written for 3.4.1, but all the changes since have been bugfixes so they don't affect a beginner's tutorial) 21:28:37 it doesn't list the controls thoug 21:28:38 *though 21:28:42 which are pretty important 21:28:44 ais523: yeah, basic controls would help 21:29:25 you're meant to read the manual, but it's a) not very good, b) written by ESR 21:31:55 here's a quick summary off the top of my head: 12346789 or yuhjklbn = move or fight; o to open doors; i to view inventory; aqrzwWPt use items; RT unequip items; < and > use stairs 21:32:08 also, use < and > to navigate through menus, and . to select things at a "which square?" screen 21:33:48 random fact: although NetHack players overwhelmingly tend to be male, both of the major spoiler sites I know are run by women 21:34:01 http://strategywiki.org/wiki/NetHack/Controls 21:34:05 this seems to be an excellent, if verbose, control reference. 21:34:36 I've never seen that before 21:34:40 but yes, it looks good 21:34:43 * ais523 checks it for truth 21:34:45 what's the method to quit without dying? i.e. save 21:36:20 i've forgotten everything :x 21:36:26 * ais523 finds and fixes an error 21:36:27 and S 21:36:46 (S is save and quit; #quit is delete save file and quit) 21:36:50 right 21:37:39 "Velkommen ehird, welcome to NetHack!" How redundant. 21:37:48 Can you change /your/ name? 21:38:43 -u on the command line 21:38:55 as in, nethack -u TAEB (which I used to use quite a lot) 21:40:18 So is cmdassist ever actually useful? 21:40:25 I'm wondering if I've done him a disservice by telling him to turn it off. 21:40:47 ais523: NAME= also works btw 21:41:10 thusly i am alise now as far as nethack is concerned 21:41:33 cmdassist only triggers in two situations: trying to type ^D rather rather than control-D, and pressing a meaningless key in a pick-any-square targeting screen 21:41:41 ah 21:41:44 Woo decgraphics 21:41:47 the second case is more harmful than useful, because there's a bug in it that cancels the entire action 21:41:49 They are good ... I think 21:41:51 (Are they good?) 21:42:07 yes 21:42:19 either DEC or IBM is better than the standard in every way, if it works on your terminal 21:42:27 except that other people watching you might not understand the control codes 21:43:10 IBM doesn't work with xterm, but DEC does 21:43:39 A door that opens onto nothing. How delightfully pointless. 21:44:02 ais523: can you disable "You displaced [pet]."? 21:44:04 it's really bothersome 21:44:14 not without turning off most of the messages in the game 21:44:24 damn 21:44:28 i bet there's a Patch For That 21:44:37 why does it bother you that much? 21:44:38 *There's A Patch For That 21:44:42 generally, you don't do a lot of displacing 21:44:42 ais523: i keep displacing Fluff :D 21:44:49 well in cramped situations i do 21:44:59 am i fucked if i can't get myself to use the diagonal movement keys? 21:45:08 not most of the time 21:45:16 but they do help quite a lot every now and then 21:45:29 i'd use numpad to get over that but i have none, ha 21:45:31 going down diagonal corridors twice as fact, etc 21:45:39 meh, yubn are in pretty obvious places 21:45:44 just look at where they are relative to the h 21:45:55 ais523: if it ever becomes truly necessary i'll probably be thinking enough to be able to think about what direction to use, anyway 21:45:58 and for normal movement it shouldn't matter 21:46:04 (I suppose you're leaving your right hand on jkl; rather than hjkl like I do?) 21:46:28 No, I leave my right hand on hjkl. Why wouldn't you?! 21:46:43 I don't use the home row positions, so I have no instinctive desire to rest on jkl;. 21:47:19 ais523: is there an autoopen :D 21:47:28 alise: I wrote that into AceHack this morning :) 21:47:39 that's a crap name, you should change it :D 21:47:54 I can't figure this out, windows VM thinks the disk is unformatted, same disk attached to a linux vm thinks it contains a proper NTFS partition 21:48:03 that's just crazy 21:48:06 I suspect Linux is correct here 21:48:15 ais523, I'm 99% sure it is 21:48:19 ais523, but why isn't windows seeing it 21:48:22 (likewise, if they believed the other way round, I'd suspect Windows was correct) 21:48:36 ais523, I need it visible from windows 21:48:38 ais523: disagreed 21:48:49 Vorpal: i bet it starts off ntfsy, but then has some corruption 21:48:59 windows, being the one "natively" supporting ntfs, catches this 21:49:04 while linux does not, having more rudimentary support 21:49:05 possibly. 21:49:08 what about fscking it from inside Linux? 21:49:18 ais523, is there ntfsfsck? 21:49:22 I can't find it here at least 21:49:30 it's more likely to be fsck.ntfs3g 21:49:31 or something 21:49:46 hm 21:50:00 I don't have a fsck for NFS 21:50:04 that doesn't exist 21:50:07 ubuntu suggests: 21:50:09 Command 'fsck.nfs' from package 'initscripts' (main) 21:50:14 *NTFS 21:50:16 as the only alternative 21:50:22 (I /do/ have a fsck for NFS) 21:50:32 ais523: call it WorkHack 21:50:35 ais523: net-work 21:50:38 I can't chkdsk it either it seems 21:50:42 alise: well, lots of people know the name know 21:50:46 ais523: but it's crap! :D 21:50:50 I like it 21:50:56 you're WRONG 21:51:01 and you should FEEL BAD 21:51:13 ais523, and ntfs3g dislikes opening it, it claims it needs to be chkdsked under windows first 21:51:18 -_- 21:51:18 ah 21:51:25 Vorpal: it's invalid 21:51:28 probably. 21:51:36 try head(1)ing the drive and seeing if the headers are right :D 21:51:47 alise, I can get data out of it using the old ntfsls tools and such 21:51:55 ais523: You have a sad feeling for a moment, then it passes. 21:51:57 ais523: duuuuude 21:52:00 -!- alise has left (?). 21:52:03 -!- alise has joined. 21:52:07 alise, your pet died 21:52:08 it happens 21:52:09 ais523: i was walking down a regular corridor 21:52:10 on the first level 21:52:14 how cosmically unfair is that?! 21:52:16 most likely a trap 21:52:19 fuck that, I'm restarting, I want my Fluff 21:52:26 oh, your mistake was calling your pet Fluff 21:52:31 XD 21:52:32 wat 21:52:43 (NetHack community: "Fluffy" is the standard name for a pet destined to die to a trap in the first few seconds) 21:52:48 (there is no in-game evidence for this) 21:52:56 well i called it fluff, not fluffy, so THERE 21:54:21 ais523: are there any cutesy, stereotypically-cat-like names that /aren't/ cursed? 21:54:44 I use "Tabby", and it seems to work quite well 21:54:51 but really, it's all down to RNG capriciousness 21:55:18 but if i stick with fluffy, I'll have the horrible feeling that i've cursed it to a premature death for no fault of its own. 21:56:59 http://petrix.com/catnames/ 21:57:12 disappointing lack of cute names 21:57:28 i'll call it felix 21:58:21 i keep removing nethack's record of dead characters because it's embarrasing 21:58:24 am I a bad person? 21:58:35 *embarrassing 22:00:14 I need chunkier keys to avoid mistypes 22:00:21 it seems a little pointless, really 22:00:29 most people consider that a "high score table" 22:00:29 what, removing the file? 22:00:32 yep 22:00:37 yeah, it's pretty much obsessiveness that causes me to do it :P 22:01:16 ais523: Hey, my boulders are showing up as `, not 0. 22:01:30 interesting 22:01:36 try writing the boulder option as BOULDER=0 22:01:40 some of the options are weird like that 22:02:42 oh, that's the problem 22:02:45 BOULDER= is for the ascii code 22:02:48 boulder:0 gives the correct thing 22:02:52 how stupidly inconsistent 22:03:32 I didn't design the RC file format 22:03:34 alise: Say, do you have any idea how ReplayGain metadata and MP3GAIN interact in ReplayGain-supporting players? 22:03:44 ais523: fix it in NotAcheHack :P 22:03:46 pikhq: probably badly 22:03:50 Alas. 22:03:51 pikhq: i suggest not using mp3gain 22:04:02 alise: I deleted most of the options 22:04:06 alise: MP3GAIN for the purposes of devices that don't support ReplayGain. 22:04:08 f - a scroll labeled PRIRUTSENIE. 22:04:10 Yaay 22:04:12 ais523: why? 22:04:14 ais523: reasonable defaults? 22:04:15 although they're still in the RC file, for people who care 22:04:19 I'm going to have to create a fairly *complex* exporting script, aren't I? 22:04:19 pikhq: just use mp3gain only 22:04:20 and yes, because reasonable defaults 22:04:22 pikhq: or dump those files 22:04:46 ais523: ugh, what's the command to see the last message again? 22:04:57 control-P 22:05:08 Noises in the distance -- that means enemies, yes? 22:05:14 Well, monsters. 22:05:41 * pikhq shall definitely need to write a music exporter 22:05:58 alise: fighting, more specifically 22:06:07 ais523: On the first level?! 22:06:08 so it's nearly always a sign that your pet decided to brutally kill something 22:06:13 ah. 22:06:18 well he is wondering off 22:06:20 (do they have genders?) 22:06:33 alise: yes, but they're impossible to determine without looking at the memory or something 22:06:46 there was a huge debate in #nethack several months ago about how to determine the gender of your pet cat 22:06:47 in the end, we gave up 22:06:51 yay grid bugs 22:06:55 my favourite type of grid bug 22:07:02 grid bugs cannot move diagonally 22:07:12 yes, they are my favourite type of grid bug 22:07:31 Anyways. Mmm, music. 22:07:40 whaa? this first level appears to have no downstairs 22:07:42 pikhq: Quite. 22:07:56 oh, no 22:07:58 it's just a huge first level 22:07:59 alise: they're probably near a secret door somewhere; try searching the walls near suspiciously empty parts of the map 22:09:51 ais523: behold the gigantic level 1: http://imgur.com/P1Khd.png 22:10:12 and no, i have no idea where felix is 22:10:18 other than that he's on a rampage 22:10:24 that's not /that/ ridiculous 22:10:33 oh, there e is 22:10:50 ais523: what is up with doors locked from both sides 22:10:59 doors lock symmetrically in NetHack 22:11:04 yes 22:11:05 just like many sorts of RL locks 22:11:08 still 22:11:20 actually, what kind of a dungeon is this anyway? 22:11:24 ZOMG NETHACK ISN'T REALISTIC 22:11:53 ais523: i should just s a lot to find the downstairs, right? 22:12:00 yep 22:12:10 use 20s in order to do 20 searches in a row, it saves on typing 22:12:14 and search near empty areas of the map 22:12:23 like that bit in the middle, with the suspicious dead-end corridor leading towards it 22:12:27 ais523: i just did that and became hungry 22:12:28 thx man :P 22:12:34 heh 22:12:40 which bit in the middle? 22:12:49 the one with the "# #####" formation? 22:12:57 northeast of there 22:13:09 i have a food ration, should prolly eat that 22:13:39 where there's a length-2 corridor in the middle of nowhere 22:14:02 after a while, you learn NetHack's map generation algo, it doesn't generate the sort of corridors around there without a secret door, normally 22:14:50 Uhh, how are goblin corpses, nutritionally? 22:14:56 I should probably google this stuff. 22:15:09 alise: /msg PinoBot #!info name=goblin 22:15:25 100, it seems 22:15:30 Okay, I meant more poisonousnessly than nutritionally. 22:15:30 for a comparison, food rations are 800 22:15:41 Ehh, I'll let felix eat it. 22:15:44 and goblins are fine 22:15:49 aha, ntfs-3g gave some usable error 22:15:53 (PinoBot lists corpse danger too) 22:15:54 a very very wtf error though 22:16:04 "partition is smaller than NTFS" 22:16:07 that makes no sense 22:16:11 hm 22:16:22 Vorpal: smaller than ntfs minimum 22:16:23 the filesystem is larger than the partition? 22:16:35 alise, well yeah I'm pretty sure 40 GB isn't 22:16:40 alise: found the stairs yet? 22:16:41 ais523, seems so 22:16:48 ais523: i searched in the place you said and found some more dead-end corridor 22:16:55 haha 22:16:57 did you search there too? 22:17:00 yep 22:17:00 nothing 22:17:03 typical 22:17:15 check under the boulder in the northwest room 22:17:20 how do you give corpses to pets again? 22:17:28 throw them; or just let the pet walk onto the square 22:18:04 "The corpse misses Felix." 22:18:21 ais523, a difference of 236749891 according to the sector ntfs-3g claims and that mbr claims 22:18:31 ais523: felix does not seem to be hungry. 22:18:33 alise: yep, it'll eat it from the square 22:18:40 but yes, it's possible for a pet to not be hungry 22:18:42 ais523: it picked up the newt then dropped it; ignored the goblin 22:18:46 also, it won't eat dangerous corpses 22:18:54 the newt must have been too old to eat safely 22:18:57 112 GB?! 22:18:57 hmm 22:18:59 only fresh coprses are edible 22:19:02 that partition has never been that big 22:19:04 is the goblin ok? 22:19:06 meh 22:19:10 I'll just dump the corpses 22:19:11 I doubt it, unless you killed it recently 22:19:35 ais523: ····│ ### 22:19:36 worth searching here? 22:19:51 maybe 22:20:00 it'd have to be a very small room to fit there 22:20:03 but it's theoretically possible 22:20:14 │······│ ┌───────────┐ 0########################·········│ 22:20:14 │······│ │···········│ # ┌─────┐ │········│ 22:20:14 │0······###########0│···········│ ### │·····│ #######·········│ 22:20:15 is it really? 22:20:45 well, there's another one of those 22:20:57 exp2 \/ 22:20:59 *\o/ 22:21:22 ais523: ok; i'm at a loss 22:21:24 i've searched everywhere 22:21:38 paste another screenshot? 22:22:12 ais523: http://i.imgur.com/k06Kv.png 22:22:15 ais523: no point pasting 22:22:21 ais523: i.imgur.com/k06Kv.png 22:22:34 ais523: behold the gigantic level 1: []imgur.com/P1Khd.png 22:22:35 i did say that before 22:22:38 but forgot you wouldn't see it 22:22:41 oh, I was considering imgur a pastebin 22:22:42 and I did see it 22:22:44 thus "anotehr" 22:22:48 *"another" 22:22:51 i thought you meant the one i actually pasted 22:22:53 Incidentally! I booted my network HD box thing today (after a rather severe thunderstorm which cut the electricity for an hour or two, not that it's necessarily related); the leds ("sys" + "disk1" + "disk2") on the box light up properly, but the network link led (in both ends of the cable) stays dark. 22:22:54 │······│ ┌───────────┐ 0########################·········│ 22:22:55 │······│ │···········│ # ┌─────┐ │········│ 22:22:55 │0······###########0│···········│ ### │·····│ #######·········│ 22:23:01 nah, I was referring to the screenshot 22:23:06 I use a proportional font for IRC anyway... 22:23:10 me too :P 22:23:14 i was hoping you didn't 22:23:54 I might search the stupid corridor in the middle again, just in case (searching isn't 100% likely to work) 22:23:59 or just give up 22:24:05 I searched it 40 times or so. 22:24:11 Don't wanna give up, this is too ridiculous to give up on! 22:25:07 ais523: heh, that # ## thing, after 40s, revealed a connection between the tw 22:25:08 *two 22:25:12 this level is ludicrous 22:25:24 I thought there probably would be 22:25:26 felix just gave me a lichen corpse, gross 22:25:33 now i'm hungry 22:25:42 Aren't lichen edible? 22:25:44 worth eating the horrible, awful lichen corpse to stay alive? :D 22:25:48 Sgeo: yes, but felix just dropped it 22:26:10 alise, I take it you like role-playing? 22:26:13 alise: It's not like real-life-you personally has to eat it, you know. 22:26:16 and picked it, and dropped it 22:26:21 Sgeo: why do you infer that? 22:26:21 (That might make the game even less popular.) 22:26:29 fizzie: Yes, but I might DIE. 22:26:41 Oh, it might be old? 22:26:44 It tastes terrible! 22:26:53 probably quite old 22:27:49 I don't think lichen corpses actually ever age. 22:28:01 if (!tp && mnum != PM_LIZARD && mnum != PM_LICHEN && (otmp->orotten || !rn2(7))) { ... 22:28:10 See, lizards and lichen are always safe to eat. 22:28:52 (It's a bit weird that it always either "is delicious" or "tastes terrible"; there's no "is a bit, you know, meh" middle-ground.) 22:29:12 (On the other hand, you *are* eating corpses raw.) 22:29:15 ais523: add "is a bit, you know, meh" now 22:29:21 acehack must have this vital feature 22:29:24 alise: doesn't fit with the goals of the fork 22:31:16 ais523: which are? to be MEH? 22:31:32 alise: same as vanilla, only with a much better interface and bugs fixed 22:31:45 the idea is to not try to take it way off into non-vanilla-land like most forks do 22:32:01 also, ideally all changes should make the game easier, preferably by reducing interface screw rather than by actually making the gameplay easier 22:32:33 ais523: any other ideas where to search? 22:33:00 try any stretch of three consecutive non-door wall pieces, especially if it's near a relatively open area of the map 22:33:28 is there a key to "go to nearest character of this key"? 22:33:34 like if i press F it'll seek to the nearest, say, litchen 22:33:38 for looking at / etc 22:34:19 alise: that works, but only for staircases, doors, altars, and sinks 22:34:25 I think at least one fork expands it to other things 22:34:32 how do you do it? 22:34:33 (for monsters it's a bit harder due to clashes with movement keys) 22:34:39 just press the character 22:34:44 oh, i meant like a separate character 22:34:51 I just pressed ! 22:34:54 e.g. /> examines the downstairs, _> travels to the downstairs 22:34:54 what did I do what did I do 22:34:59 ! opens a shell recursively 22:35:02 it seems to have reset 22:35:02 phew 22:35:04 kind-of pointless on UNIX 22:35:06 okay 22:35:07 but 22:35:08 where you could just use control-Z 22:35:10 it's asking for a new character 22:35:13 can i just q that nethack? 22:35:17 (the shell is set to nethack for this terminal) 22:35:18 I think so 22:35:28 also, recursive nethack, how great! 22:35:37 ok, i'm on the verge of completely giving up 22:35:42 is searching connected corridors worthwhile? 22:35:53 it could work in theory; search three squares into the corridor 22:36:00 as it's the most likely place for a secret branch 22:36:06 but really, I've never seen that technique needed 22:36:20 if you're curious; instead of quitting, save then reopen in debug mode 22:36:22 you think #nethack will be able to help? (brb) 22:36:27 and perhaps 22:44:19 ais523, funny thing, it seems all files are within the actual partition 22:44:25 just the fs thinks it is larger 22:44:41 presumably just twiddling some header would fix it 22:45:33 ais523, the good old ntfs user space tools seems to be able to read everything from it 22:45:42 complaining about it though 22:49:21 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 22:51:27 -!- FireFly has joined. 23:01:41 ais523: should I just give up? 23:01:50 also, how do you open in debug mode again? root and some command-line switch right? 23:01:50 you're still trying? 23:01:53 yep 23:01:54 i just got back 23:01:58 sudo /usr/games/nethack -D 23:02:14 I feel slightly queasy running a game as root. 23:02:16 then you can map the level with control-F 23:02:32 alise: so do I; I change that in my own local compiles 23:02:36 hmm, I wonder if fakeroot works? 23:02:56 nope, it doesn't 23:03:16 ais523: ideally, it should require to be run as root but then drop privileges immediately 23:03:23 my guess is that it doesn't work on setgid programs 23:03:33 alise: perhaps 23:03:43 the Windows version just needs a password, that makes much more sense 23:03:52 what password? yours? 23:04:10 ais523: why /is/ nethack so protective of its files etc., by the way? originated on multi-user systems? 23:04:25 yep 23:04:28 and is still designed for them 23:04:31 (the password's "wizard") 23:04:36 (by default) 23:04:52 um, i started nethack with -D and it's just gone to the new-character screen 23:04:55 if you have a bunch of people playing NetHack on the same server, it Does The Right Thing in most contexts 23:04:57 whereas nethack works 23:05:00 alise: nethack -D -u alise 23:05:01 is that because root doesn ot have my save files? 23:05:04 to load the same savefile 23:05:09 hmm, actually, you could be righ 23:05:10 *right 23:05:11 ais523: you mean -u ehird 23:05:15 my unix username is ehird 23:05:22 yeah, none of those work 23:05:25 no, under -u you give the name of the character 23:05:29 but there's a UID check as well 23:05:35 you could just rename the savefile from 1000alise to 0wizard 23:05:39 then open it 23:05:44 ais523: acehack proposal: ./configure --single-user :P 23:05:46 unless it kills you by trickery for doing that 23:05:54 i think it does check filename, no? 23:06:04 ais523: (puts stuff in ~/.nethack, say, not the root-privileged directories) 23:06:06 I'm not sure if it compares the filename to something else 23:06:17 Try to keep a copy of the savefile just in case? 23:06:20 alise: well, that's just ./configure --prefix=~/nethack or whatever 23:06:47 ais523: yes, but installs system-wide 23:06:51 ais523: everyone has their own high-scores, etc. 23:06:57 no setgid needed, everyone can use wizard mode, ... 23:07:01 hmm 23:07:05 * Sgeo vaguely wonders why he has a tab opened on the XChat docs... and why there's a plugin module for Falcon 23:07:09 that'd spoil most of the fun 23:07:18 Sgeo: i think if the dev team could, they'd make it search your entire disk for nethack save files 23:07:23 and kill all your characters if you've copied one out 23:07:48 ais523: [[To get to the wizard mode, you must start the game with the command "nethack -D -u wizard".]] 23:07:52 ais523: so you must play as wizard 23:07:59 yes 23:08:05 that's the windows version 23:08:11 nope 23:08:13 the -u wizard is implied by the -D and being root, on UNIX/Linux 23:08:16 I thought, at least 23:08:17 it then goes on to "In Windows, ..." 23:08:20 oh, maybe 23:08:23 On Debian/Ubuntu, starting NetHack as root using "sudo /usr/games/nethack -D" gets you into wizard mode. 23:08:28 ais523: only on debian 23:08:34 how peculiar 23:08:42 alise: no, that's just due to the changes from the default config 23:08:45 ah 23:08:53 the /default/ UNIX config requires your UNIX username to be "wizard" 23:08:55 ais523: apparently you can run nethack in debug mode with gdb 23:08:57 which is a little ridiculous 23:09:02 alise: but only if it isn't suid 23:09:04 *sgid 23:09:09 ais523: what, it has to be uid 0 /and/ named "wizard"? 23:09:16 no 23:09:18 just named wizard 23:09:22 ah 23:09:43 for extra fun, the config option that selects this is called KR1ED for apparently no reason at all 23:10:05 it's nethack, i'm hardly surprised 23:10:45 ais523: i like wikihack's annotated source 23:10:54 the only way to understand the code is literate programming 23:11:01 well, pseudo-literate 23:11:27 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:12:35 ais523: there's some random function that actually depends on the phase of the moon, isn't there? 23:12:43 rnl, but only indirectly 23:13:05 also, it gave different results yesterday 23:13:10 (due to it being friday the 13th) 23:13:14 30. x = RND(x); 23:13:15 31. return(x); 23:13:15 32. #else 23:13:15 33. return(RND(x)); 23:13:20 why on earth do they do it like that 23:13:31 because one of the versions is utterly broken on some compiler or otehr 23:13:32 *other 23:13:41 ais523: you're shitting me 23:13:51 and either they have to write a huge comment "don't change this apparently ridiculous code because it breaks on (insert obscure compiler here)" 23:13:53 ais523: it has special behaviour, unintentionally, on friday the 13th? 23:13:56 or just write it both ways with a #ifdef 23:13:58 alise: intentionally 23:14:01 ah 23:14:03 oh 23:14:06 you were talking about the source code 23:14:06 unintentionally would be ridiculous 23:14:16 ais523: it only does it the verbose way in debug mode, though 23:14:22 hmm, that depends on debug mode? 23:14:25 yep 23:14:28 it also checks for a negative value 23:14:31 in debug mode 23:14:33 normally, it's a #ifdef ATARI or #ifdef GCC_BUG or whatever 23:14:39 alise: I bet it's just a location for a breakpoint 23:14:42 ah 23:14:51 how hacky :D 23:15:11 ais523: looking at rnl, i don't see where the time comes in 23:15:12 is it the Luck? 23:15:18 yep 23:15:18 -!- Oranjer has joined. 23:15:20 -!- jcp has joined. 23:15:22 that's why I said "indirectly" 23:15:23 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 23:15:42 a full moon gives a consistent +1 to Luck 23:15:57 have i ever mentioned that nethack is insane? 23:16:17 yes 23:16:23 it's that sort of details I love, though 23:16:36 what's the least lucky day to play on? :) 23:16:46 it had #tasvideos (specifically Ilari) write a program for bruteforcing all the new moon friday 13ths over the next century, just so we could play at hardest difficulty 23:17:00 you know, Ilari is here too :P 23:17:06 I do know 23:17:20 so what's the next new moon friday 13th? 23:18:17 * ais523 checks the thread 23:18:24 link? 23:18:59 2015-11-13 23:19:06 and http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9771 23:19:17 I'll be 19/20. 23:19:28 Scary. 23:19:36 ais523: you /could/ just set the clock 23:19:46 that's how it's done in a TAS, ofc 23:19:49 http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=239663&highlight=#239663 23:19:52 pick the optimal clock time 23:20:58 "unfortunately, as it's possible to manipulate luck without spending any gametime and the RNG seed space is incredibly large, minimum gametime would probably take several decades or even centuries to watch." :D 23:21:22 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:21:27 i remember that amazing pokemon something TAS that completed the game in a few frames of gametime 23:21:45 it was beautiful 23:22:43 alise: it was improved 23:22:43 Frames? 23:22:48 ais523: really? 23:22:51 pikhq: sixtieths of a second 23:22:55 I recall it being absurdly quick, but... *Frames*?!? 23:22:57 alise: it now no longer leaves the main character's bedroom 23:22:57 There's two of them, the faster one and slower one. Both catch the infamous 152nd pokemon. 23:23:00 pikhq: it was less than a second 23:23:02 pikhq: so yes 23:23:06 alise: ... 23:23:06 ais523: got a link? 23:23:14 pikhq: of gametime, not of menutime etc 23:23:15 alise: So... Not the 2 minute one. 23:23:17 pikhq: no 23:23:20 Oh, gametime. 23:23:21 Yeah. 23:23:22 pikhq: much quicker 23:23:33 pikhq: that includes in-game menus 23:23:36 pikhq: just not the intro menus 23:23:40 Mmm. 23:23:45 http://tasvideos.org/1582M.html 23:23:55 that's around 2 minutes, though 23:24:01 you might be thinking of King's Bounty, but that isn't a pokemon game 23:24:06 ais523: "The interesting bottleneck, which gametime speedruns keep coming up against in non-TAS runs, is that it's impossible to access the Quest, which contains one of the items absolutely necessary to complete the game, before turn 2000, which puts some interesting constraints on the run." 23:24:11 just do N. when you're ready? 23:24:18 Yeah, you're thinking of King's Bounty. 23:24:21 yep, that's one possibility 23:24:25 i'm not thinking of that 23:24:28 hmm 23:24:34 -!- Flonk has joined. 23:24:35 i guess that less than a minute one is the one i meant 23:24:36 alise: That one actually *has* a few-frame TAS. 23:24:42 king's bounty is shit though :P 23:24:56 pikhq: youtube's html5 player is rubbish 23:25:05 The Pokemon Yellow TAS is just absurd. 23:25:29 Memory corruption FTW. 23:25:42 TASes are probably the closest thing to performance art video games have 23:26:10 Pretty much. 23:26:15 *have. 23:26:34 ais523: hey, he leaves the bedroom 23:26:36 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zFhVr-oMcU 23:26:40 to go to glitchland 23:26:46 well, yes 23:26:53 but that's once everything's set up 23:27:05 Yes; he rewrites the memory so that the exit of the bedroom is the victory room. 23:27:19 -!- jcp has joined. 23:27:27 "you have 62 ash, and a error rating!" --YouTube 23:28:22 ais523: what is JPC-RR? 23:28:30 rerecording PC emulator 23:28:35 ah 23:28:40 Slow as hell... 23:28:42 why not just mod nethack's code? 23:28:44 It's in Java. 23:28:46 to do rerecording 23:29:02 because you have to do that separately for every game 23:29:04 also, NetHack is insane 23:29:06 ais523: presumably for this nethack speedrun you'd only record a frame when you press a key? 23:29:12 otherwise you'd have a lot of wasted time 23:29:17 the debates about the goal have been really large 23:29:24 although, NetHack's RNG is action-based, not time-based 23:29:39 also, we need to get it done in less than an hour in order to play at hardest difficulty 23:29:51 ais523: presumably for this nethack speedrun you'd only record a frame when you press a key? 23:30:11 alise: JPC-RR emulates quite a slow system 23:30:16 you record a frame every onscreen frame 23:30:21 yes, but still... 23:30:25 it's so unoptimal! 23:30:27 many actions are slow enough that you actually see the game grinding 23:30:43 one frame per keypress would be amazing 23:30:48 since it would be "theoretically" o 23:30:50 *possible 23:30:56 I don't know what you're talking about 23:30:59 given a robot attached to a computer instead of a keyboard 23:31:05 ais523: well, imagine a quick computer 23:31:10 you can enter multiple keys per frame 23:31:10 Well, drop the divider a bit and it will be faster system (and even slower emulation). 23:31:14 and the computer speed really doesn't matter 23:31:17 now imagine that every time you press a key and nethack responds, it records a frame in the video 23:31:20 and that's it 23:31:29 many keys lead to no onscreen response, though 23:31:36 ais523: well, you know what i mean 23:31:37 especially as you spend half your time walking into walls to manipulate the RNG 23:31:42 just do it 0.5s after you press it or something 23:31:55 and never press more often than that; i'm talking about the theoretical idea 23:32:51 ais523: btw, you have to use 0root.gz 23:32:53 not 0wizard 23:33:02 interesting 23:33:16 ais523: and thanks to that, nethack just erased the file 23:33:19 [ehird@dinky ~]$ sudo nethack -D -u wizard 23:33:21 "LOL ITS NOT URS" 23:33:22 now it's gone 23:33:25 what's up with that??? 23:33:33 it's not the wizard's fault that root tried to intrude 23:33:42 good thing i backed it up 23:33:46 oh, wait 23:33:49 ais523: it has to be 0wizard 23:33:53 ais523: it's just that it realised it was alise's file. 23:33:53 yep, I thought so 23:34:05 NetHack's full of protections against that sort of thing 23:34:06 can you tweak that? 23:34:13 only with a recompile, I think 23:34:19 but it's debug mode ffs! 23:34:41 * alise starts a new game, disgruntled 23:34:47 see, this way you can debug the anti-cheat protection! 23:34:48 yay katana 23:35:16 * alise satiated 23:35:35 ais523: is sokoban optional? 23:35:39 yes 23:35:45 good; i'm terrible at sokoban 23:35:47 although there's some decent loot there 23:36:06 ais523: all very well but i can't play the simplest sokoban levels outside of nethack 23:37:10 ais523: "Actually, Ais523 planned to do the run by using special hacked Linux version (modified to behave like DOS version would) recording the needed keyboard input and then just spamming that input (together with the boot sequence input) to emulator using Lua (which will cause final movie file (unless edited) to have RERECORDS 0)." 23:37:14 ais523: that's basically what i was proposing 23:39:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:39:47 "You hear someone counting money." 23:39:49 on the first level? 23:39:52 vault on the level 23:39:58 (not a shop, that's a different message) 23:40:06 vaults are disconnected from everything else, and contain money 23:40:35 and how do you get there? 23:40:54 a teleport. ha 23:41:09 or digging 23:41:15 ais523: how? 23:41:21 pickaxe, wand of digging, mattock 23:41:23 or the spell 23:41:29 ais523: yeah, remember when i said level 1? :P 23:41:40 you could have a picaxe at level 1 23:41:44 *pickaxe 23:41:47 just play archeologist 23:41:48 lichen! goblin throwing orcish dagger! wowzers! 23:41:55 the goblin killed the lichen 23:41:56 thanks, goblin 23:43:42 I just picked up a large box. 23:43:45 Bad idea? Probably. 23:44:11 yes, they're rather heavy and don't do anything useful 23:44:15 well, don't do much useful 23:44:20 you could try looking inside it, but it's probably locked 23:44:40 err, how do you look inside again? 23:44:44 >_> 23:44:52 #loot on the floor, or a in inventory 23:45:02 not locked 23:45:09 at ripe ration and a wire ring 23:45:11 *a 23:45:19 better than nothing, I suppose 23:46:32 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:47:05 ais523: it's probably impossible to reach this vault, isn't it? 23:47:19 at this stage in the game, mostly 23:47:27 there's likely a teleport trap somewhere which sends you into it 23:47:33 but it won't help much, as it won't let you back /out/ 23:47:56 There's some graffiti on the floor here. You read: "Wcl| Come".--More-- 23:48:04 just random graffiti 23:48:09 weird graffiti 23:48:12 is it distorted "Well Come"? 23:48:32 yep 23:48:58 "Well Come", /* Prisoner */ 23:49:12 (They all are references to something or other.) 23:49:23 -!- relet has joined. 23:49:45 ais523: is there ever a . break in a wall without path after it? 23:49:51 it can happen 23:49:54 although it's rare 23:50:02 I like how the one with a phone number -- "For a good time call 8?7-5309" -- has a pre-corrupted one digit to not make it any real number ever. 23:50:03 the dungeon isn't in the best state of repair 23:50:33 ais523: clearly not so rare; i've s'ed it 40 or so times and nothing 23:50:44 fizzie: don't they know you're meant to use 555-! 23:51:09 yay a fountain, i forgot what fountains do ... 23:51:13 this knowledge has just leaked out of my brain 23:51:26 Fountains generate snakes to kill you. :p 23:51:42 noted :P 23:52:11 They can do a lot of other things too, though. 23:52:19 Like a water demon. :p 23:52:22 This water's no good! The fountain dries up! 23:52:28 Each item in your inventory has 1/5 chance of being cursed outright; your hunger is increased and your constitution is abused. 23:52:35 wonderful! 23:52:37 ais523: how fucked am I? 23:52:48 never quaff fountains 23:52:52 just, seriously 23:52:55 oh 23:52:55 okay 23:52:56 too late 23:52:59 at least, that doesn't screw you up too badly early game 23:53:01 i thought it was a Good Thing 23:53:02 it's much worse late on 23:53:13 i wonder how much of my stuff is poisoned, yay 23:53:23 erm 23:53:23 cursed 23:53:38 ais523: what's the thing you're /meant/ to do with fountains? 23:53:50 they're situationally useful for dipping things in 23:53:53 You can Excaliburize swords in there, under certain conditions. 23:53:58 "Fountain quaffing is the specific practice of immediately quaffing from every fountain you find, in the hope of releasing a water demon and getting an early wish. In a lesser form, most inexperienced players will unintentionally engage in this behavior; this is unfortunate as most fountain quaffers die after a few hundred turns, but those with experience don't mind because they can just start again." 23:54:47 You have good luck (I mean the real-world sense, not the game-attribute sense) there: it's 1/30 to get the cursing thing. (Many others are also negative, though you *can* find gems and such too.) 23:54:47 You displaced Felix. Click! Felix triggers something.--More-- 23:54:54 You are hit by a boulder! The boulder misses Felix. 23:54:59 STUPID FUCKING CAT 23:55:12 Aren't cats supposed to be agile and not boulder-trap-triggering sort?-) 23:55:13 fizzie: by good luck do you mean terrible luck? 23:55:20 Yes. 23:55:24 :D 23:55:30 fizzie: *the boulder-trap-triggering sort 23:55:37 I may have meant to write "terrible" there. 23:55:46 it's better if you didn't intend to 23:55:54 (I am not entirely undrunken at the moment, sorry about that.) 23:56:09 ((Is that even a word?)) 23:56:20 Do you normally use nested parentheses when drunk? 23:56:55 I sometimes use them when sober (that's the word I was looking for there), but that's not proper nesting, to do ((x)) like that. 23:57:14 It's ... autonesting! 23:57:20 fizzie: What is your opinion on crabs? 23:57:38 There is a difference between (x) and ((x)) 23:57:44 So surely you mean ((x)) when you say ((x)) 23:57:49 How quickly should I eat after I start to feel hungry? ais523? 23:57:54 I can never judge how serious it is. 23:57:54 "(slang) pubic lice"? 23:58:13 alise: generally, you should eat nonpermafood whenever you find it 23:58:18 and permafood, you can wait until you become Weak 23:58:21 Unless you're satiated 23:58:25 although eating it at Hungry is fine 23:58:28 Sgeo: right 23:58:30 ais523: ok, i'll wait 23:58:35 i only have one ration i know to be uncursed 23:58:39 d - an uncursed food ration 23:58:40 i - 2 food rations 23:58:40 k - a tripe ration 23:58:56 There was something bad about walking around when satiated, wasn't there? 23:59:05 two downstairs; one will go to somewhere small, right? 23:59:37 The mines would be the first branchy point, wouldn't it? 23:59:43 Small relative to the rest of the dungeon 23:59:49 But not "small" in normal terms 23:59:56 Valkyrie needs food, badly! You stop searching. 23:59:56 VALKYRIE CAN HAS CHEEZBURGR 23:59:56 HAHAHA