00:00:07 http://videolectures.net/mlcs07_higuera_giv/ 00:00:15 thus guy has a very bizarre mix of accents 00:00:32 half english of some sort, with touches of french 00:01:49 cheater99: define hugh. 00:02:15 out of place, young, inexperienced, and nobody takes him seriously 00:02:25 formerly known as 3 of 5 00:02:55 lol 00:03:06 <3 00:03:40 if anyone's out of place in this channel it's you, there are a few younger than me, either stupidly incorrect or irrelevant depending on what you think i'm inexperienced in 00:03:48 and i have fairly good empirical evidence against the last one. 00:09:47 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:09:56 They keep moving the spider! 00:10:11 Oh dear. 00:13:31 .raed hO 00:14:33 alise: i'm glad i riled you up, there was no other point to saying that sweetie 00:15:10 ??? 00:16:31 i'm not riled up 00:16:34 just vaguely amused 00:16:58 Amused from what? 00:17:11 cheater99 had a rather pathetic go at insulting me 00:17:11 s/from/of/ 00:17:37 Are you still insulted? Did I insult you too? 00:17:46 if it was so pathetic, why did you take the time to write such a long retort? 00:17:48 I don't believe you said anything insulting ... 00:17:56 Neither do I. 00:17:58 cheater99: Uhh, I type pretty fast, and I have nothing better to do. 00:18:00 -!- zzo38 has quit. 00:18:15 nothing better to do than to answer pathetic insults, huh? 00:18:32 Yep. If I had something better to do, I wouldn't be blabbing on IRC. 00:18:38 Or responding to these questions about questions. 00:20:38 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:20:59 questions about questions, huh? 00:21:16 * cheater99 watches alise start spinning a spinner to check what question she's on 00:21:35 You know, you don't exactly seem like you have anything better to do, either. 00:24:41 -!- Zuu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:25:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:25:17 pikhq: Have you seen "Star Trek New Voyages: Phase II"? It's a bit /too/ faithful to TOS; copying even its production values! 00:25:24 Except this time the film is good enough to see the cheese. 00:25:55 i'm reading memory alpha on the EMH 00:26:17 The Doc was the only good character on Voyager. 00:26:26 truths 00:26:33 And he had to deal with a ship full of fools. 00:27:13 Wowwwwww, the cheese is just so great. 00:27:20 (I'm watching "World Enough and Time".) 00:27:28 I may have to stop soon. 00:27:57 :) 00:28:15 I just woke up from a meth-induced binge sleep that lasted for a week 00:28:20 -!- tombom_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:28:23 I must say my teeth feel pretty bad 00:28:36 I think that's generally a pretty good sign that you should lay off the god damned meth. 00:29:15 but... 00:29:25 I can have sex for hours on meth, while programming in assembly. 00:29:37 ...but it's mainly the assembly code that turns me on. 00:29:52 I'm not even going to /start/ trying to reason. 00:30:04 alise: omg that guy 00:30:08 that guy 00:30:11 hes so french at times 00:30:15 but then at times hes so english 00:30:15 D: 00:30:25 "but you know jolly well that its not" 00:30:26 D: 00:30:36 Bonjour! Tally ho! 00:30:45 omg thats him 00:30:46 its true 00:31:01 -!- Zuu has joined. 00:31:06 he says "here" as "hyeaahh" 00:31:38 wow, this is the worst Spock ever 00:31:43 just ... the worst 00:31:55 LOL @ SCOTTY 00:32:00 where 00:32:11 augur: "Star Trek New Voyages: Phase II" 00:32:13 alise: there are many fanfics out there that wish to disagree 00:32:20 fan-created sequel to The Original Series 00:32:20 o ok 00:32:25 very high production values for a fan creation 00:32:30 George Takei and people have been in it 00:32:42 The Trouble with Tribbles writer is doing too 00:32:43 *two 00:32:45 but despite all of this 00:32:49 it's so hilariously, hilariously bad 00:32:53 its still horrible yeah 00:33:03 has everyone attempted to watch Plan 9 from Outer Space? 00:33:09 man apparently kirk's main personality feature is wrinkling his face every two words 00:33:16 I tried... but there was too much bad and not enough hilarity. 00:33:23 it really looks like some kids pretending to be in star trek 00:33:46 "a tangle of MULTIPLE DIMENSIONS". 00:33:57 OMG 00:33:58 HAHAHA 00:34:01 THE SPACESUITS 00:34:02 ARE MADE 00:34:03 OF GLITTER 00:34:07 multi-coloured glitter 00:34:10 I am absolutely not joking 00:34:47 hahaha 00:34:54 i have to take a screenshot 00:34:58 how can you take a screenshot with mplayer/Xv? 00:35:12 oh scrot works 00:35:16 if the whole window is visible 00:35:24 ......scrot? 00:35:31 as in... scrotum? 00:35:49 no, as in scrot 00:35:57 i repeat, lay off the meth 00:36:00 you leave an impression on a scortum? 00:36:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QspuCt1FM9M 00:36:03 i dont know what to make of this 00:36:20 alise: I've never heard of scrot. 00:36:24 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 00:36:30 augur: the start is awesome ambient 00:36:32 Maaaan 00:36:36 RE-CAPTCHA is so btiontic. 00:36:47 alise: the whole thing is some awesome ambient 00:36:50 Gregor-W: XD 00:36:53 coppro: http://imgur.com/uoU1V.png 00:37:10 Hikaru Sulu, wearing his anti-antimatter glitter suit. 00:37:23 augur: this is amazing 00:37:29 augur: someone do his whole album like this 00:37:30 alise: I KNOW RIGHT? 00:37:40 "Holy crap. Is this Godspeed You! Black Emperor?" --comments 00:37:41 Yes, yes it is. 00:37:45 who knew that justin bieber was actually a GOOD musical artist! 00:37:56 yeah 00:38:01 the record company just forced him to speed it up 00:38:03 you know, for the kids 00:38:06 god dammit I hate scribd 00:38:22 damn kids 00:38:23 augur: get rid of his name and the album title, remove his facial features, and blur it to hell 00:38:25 hahaha @ comment 00:38:27 there's his original, intended album cover 00:38:45 alise: obviously 00:39:37 i seriously want to save this 00:40:13 this is supposed to be a HAPPY song and not a song you'd play at someone's funeral!!! my opinion! I really do not like it at all. Doesn't even sound like the original at all. Boo ya. 00:40:18 :) 00:40:28 ^style youtube 00:40:28 Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) 00:40:36 fungot, what do you think about this comment? 00:40:36 CakeProphet: 5125l: oh shut up? and mark wahlberg second reason filmed in canada and that avril lavigne rockssssss a friend came by around 3:30 am and pic was frozen right on this 00:43:46 alise: im tempted now to take some classic ambient music and speed it up 00:43:48 to see what it sounds like 00:44:25 how ridiculous if Brian Eno was actually just ripping off Jimi Hendrix 00:45:03 omg, that is exactly what this sounds like that i couldn't put my finger on 00:45:03 eno 00:45:10 lol 00:45:56 so I found something that FIXES Haskell records. :) 00:46:03 called fclabels 00:46:06 CakeProphet: making them 800% slower? 00:46:18 FUCK LABELS 00:46:24 Oh, is that not what that stands for? 00:46:30 alise: im not sure tho if this is actually just justin bieber 00:46:30 augur: i will now attempt to listen to the original song by "Justin" "Bieber" 00:46:38 to compare 00:46:43 alise: no, it makes a :-> type 00:46:44 i tried listening to a version on youtube and it sounded a bit different 00:46:51 and get/set/mod functions 00:46:55 so im going to record this version and then speed it up 00:46:56 augur: that is what slowing things down generally does. 00:46:59 lol 00:46:59 :P 00:47:04 talk about loss of fidelity 00:48:04 so now the act of setting a record field can be abstracted... 00:48:12 instead of requiring the syntax. 00:48:34 setL field 3 record 00:48:59 field :: (Num a) => RecordType :-> a 00:49:04 DAVID MITCHELL 00:49:08 thats who that french guy sounds like 00:49:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQAwnusJVQ 00:49:53 this song looks like a good candidate for speed-up 00:50:03 augur: i can't read david mitchell's articles, because they get read in his voice 00:50:06 the piano melody will probably sound like experimental jazz or something. 00:50:12 Well, just finished the first season of SGU 00:50:13 alise: haha 00:50:14 the guardian need to put authorship credits st the /bottom/ 00:50:15 i love his voice 00:50:55 Eno sort of already does that time-fucking anyway. 00:51:53 Talking Heads' "Remain in Light", produced by Eno, has all its music sped up quite a bit (but not the vocals). 00:52:19 Although that's not quite 800%. :P 00:57:01 alise! 00:57:02 http://www.mediafire.com/?aenvebe86u0d7ha 00:58:02 what is it? 00:58:10 the sped up one? 00:58:29 the slow one 00:58:30 in FULL 00:58:32 35 minutes 00:58:46 Is it ... any less repetitive? 00:59:06 i dont know 00:59:07 lol 00:59:18 look, i didnt say justin bieber wasnt philip glass, ok 00:59:19 gosh 00:59:58 "Russian village bought by torrent site torrentreactor.net for $150,000 and renamed after it 00:59:58 Torrentreactor.net is one of the few companies that has decided to leave a permanent mark on the world map and rename a settlement after itself. The one with real houses and live inhabitants. A small russian village Gar was chosen to be renamed. It is located not far away from Seversk nuclear reactor (Russia, Tomsk region). As opposed to Google town that became the Texas «capital» for a limited period of time Torrentreactor village will retain its name f 00:59:58 orever. The price of $150,000 was announced for such «live billboard»." 00:59:59 I... 01:02:56 youve already got a town in australia named after /you/ 01:02:57 :| 01:03:44 technically, that's Alice. 01:03:45 TECHNICALLY 01:05:38 omg alise 01:05:39 its true 01:05:43 it really its justin bieber 01:05:46 X_X 01:06:00 augur: now i have a task for you 01:06:02 download his entire album 01:06:06 do the same transformation to every track 01:06:13 now, find a few tracks that go together 01:06:14 i will, in a bit 01:06:15 and mix them up 01:06:18 first im speeding up brian eno 01:06:21 repeat until the whole album is mixed into a few half-hour long tracks 01:06:29 say a nice three-track, 90 minute mix 01:06:57 wow 01:06:59 so that's ~3 songs from his album per mix, you can do that 01:07:02 augur: because it's too bland on its own, see 01:07:05 the interlocking will be beautiful 01:07:10 the expansion of the song did horrendous stuff to Bieber's music 01:07:14 lol 01:07:19 it already is horrendous 01:07:22 oh you mean 01:07:26 the "speeding up" 01:07:27 :P 01:07:32 well 01:07:35 no what i mean is 01:07:46 augur: when you have those three tracks, just note their lengths, cat them together, add loooong crossfades between them, split at the same time 01:07:53 tada, Justin Bieber: Music of Form 01:07:57 the lengthening process (and then the subsequent shortening) destroyed a lot of the quality of the instruments 01:07:58 or 01:08:00 Formative Music 01:08:06 augur: what quality :P 01:08:13 Justin Bieber - Formative Music 01:08:16 well, the instruments sound like instruments :P 01:08:54 also make all the titles somehow based on mutations of his song titles 01:09:27 Cycle 1, including Usmil's Baby and Overbored 01:09:32 you're making me look up justin bieber song titles 01:09:33 why, man, why? 01:12:24 alise: im listening to some Aphex Twin sped up 01:12:31 sounds almost proper 01:13:08 augur: "Richard D. James Album" is pretty damn hyper already. :P 01:13:11 blue calx at 400% speed is almost playful 01:13:27 But I assume you mean his more ... ambient work. 01:13:32 yes 01:13:34 SAWII 01:13:53 RDJA is surprisingly /catchy/. 01:18:36 torrents are so crap :| 01:19:08 alise: im listening to a song called San Tommaso Eqed by Der Spyra 01:19:13 its very ambient 01:19:28 but sped up it sounds like it could have been a movie-classical 01:22:10 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:24:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:24:58 I need a Usenet link. 01:30:14 Or ten. 01:32:42 -!- kwertii has joined. 01:33:25 Six gigs of *MP3s*... Good god that's a large torrent. 01:36:47 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 01:38:12 Pfft, MP3s. 01:38:31 augur: have you heard the analord bonus tracks? 01:38:34 Meanwhile I can't even find a decent, non-remastered FLAC rip of "Remain in Light" (mentioning things gives me this urge to acquire them). 01:38:40 That is, the only one I can find has zero seeders and is hence useless. 01:38:49 alise: Yeah, it's annoying, but. 77 freaking albums in a torrent. 01:39:02 zeotrope: no. does that involve buttsex 01:39:10 zeotrope: Is the rest of Analord better than Chosen Lords? 01:39:15 Chosen Lords is a bit crap. 01:39:33 alise: definitely 01:39:38 I liked chosen lords though 01:39:46 It was good the first time. 01:39:51 After that... bleh. 01:40:57 it had only 6 songs, the analord collection is quite large 01:41:30 my bad, 10 01:41:32 yeah 01:41:33 alise: apparently if you dont slow justin bieber down much (maybe a litte) but lower his pitch drastically, you get johnny cash 01:41:44 augur: except, shit johnny cash 01:41:45 right? 01:41:50 well 01:41:53 i think cash was shit anyway 01:41:53 so 01:42:03 ehh 01:42:09 his cover of Hurt was great :P 01:42:29 zeotrope: my least favourite aphex twin album though is ...I Care Because You Do 01:42:35 augur: Apparently, if you shoot Justin Bieber and put on a Daft Punk album you get good music. 01:42:39 ;) 01:42:45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZmkFmW5LXY 01:42:46 pikhq: Unless it's Human After All. 01:42:48 Then you get Human After All. 01:42:56 alise: Okay, yes, fair point. 01:42:58 ..................... 01:43:04 Also, http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/daftpunk/aroundtheworld.html 01:43:09 * Gregor-W listens to some Tchaikovsky. 01:43:15 Gregor-W: THAT TOO 01:43:22 alise: Such a fucking weird song. 01:43:27 alise: Also, the music video is weirder. 01:43:30 pikhq: AROUND THE WORLD AROUND THE WORLD 01:43:42 alise: that last link has now turned me on to george michael 01:43:47 who i would've never thought could be good 01:43:48 but is 01:43:52 Okay, I do actually like parts of Human After All. 01:43:53 Fucking Daft Punk, thinking that techno exempts them from lyrics. 01:43:56 :P 01:43:57 "The Prime Time of Your Life" is pretty good. 01:44:25 the genres we've covered in the past hours is imrpressive 01:44:41 augur: that muse/stefani thing is totally true, btw 01:44:43 and very disturbing 01:44:46 *impressive 01:45:08 alise: About the only thing that's common with geek musical tastes is not limiting themselves to the current mainstream of music. 01:45:17 So... Yeah. 01:45:29 listening now alise 01:45:38 to what? 01:45:44 * Gregor-W <3 his restrictive musical palate. 01:46:04 alise: its kinda true yeah 01:46:08 Gregor-W: You merely restrict yourself to forms of music not derived from folk music traditions. 01:47:07 pikhq: http://w00tstock.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/05g-400x300.jpg 01:47:14 "Shut up Wesley!", says Wesley. 01:47:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:47:33 Gregor-W: You also end up limiting yourself from the sheer agony that is constructed-pop music. 01:47:34 jesus christ moth 01:47:35 stop attacking me 01:47:39 -!- augur has joined. 01:47:41 you're sitting on my screen 01:47:43 whacking into my hand 01:47:44 wtf 01:47:46 wtf moth 01:47:46 just wtf 01:47:52 alise: the main differences between muse and stefani 01:47:54 as far as i can tell 01:47:56 are 01:48:04 Be very careful with your next words. 01:48:08 stefani uses a basilect, and has a more hissy voice 01:48:19 OK, as long as you criticise Black Holes and Revelations and after you're good. 01:48:24 Constructed-pop is perhaps the most painful thing to listen to ever. 01:48:32 But Origin of Symmetry is above criticism, dammit. 01:48:47 which what 01:48:53 it's an album 01:48:54 by Muse 01:48:59 oh is this muse 01:49:00 ok 01:49:05 it's very good 01:52:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vBZrc4ZEYM&feature=related 01:53:15 Why has YouTube become the music distribution source? 01:53:29 augur: That so needs speeding up. 01:53:45 alise: because its hard to police 01:53:54 Yeah, but ... 01:53:59 It's fucking video. 01:54:01 That's ... it... 01:54:04 yeah but 01:54:04 The. 01:54:09 Fuck it,. 01:54:12 ASD 01:54:14 *Fuck it. 01:54:15 theres no equivalent to it in terms of audio 01:54:25 sdofij 01:54:25 with a bajillion videos uploaded every day 01:54:29 its hard to police for music 01:55:01 on the other hand, if there were an equivalent audio site, it'd be MOSTLY music 01:55:11 ur mom is mostly music 01:56:30 thats too nice a thing to say about my mom. 01:57:16 i think i'll just make a mental note to never make ur mom jokes in #esoteric 01:57:16 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:57:52 :/ 01:57:59 -!- wareya has joined. 01:58:11 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 02:00:52 Grooveshark exists 02:01:51 it's shit 02:02:01 grooveshark is rather shit 02:02:29 but it did have a song that was nifty 02:02:29 so. 02:02:39 also, grooveshark is legal. 02:02:44 its not music sharing in the same way. 02:05:09 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:06:50 * Sgeo WTFs at Google Chrome update 02:07:05 At least there's a nice icon telling me 02:15:08 * Sgeo learns of /r/nethack 02:18:38 -!- Killerkid has joined. 02:40:02 Bye. 02:40:03 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:44:08 Going to torture myself with more SGI soon 02:54:48 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:54:58 -!- augur has joined. 03:15:31 Huh. An unmatched " or ' on a logical line is undefined behavior in C. 03:15:45 It would be perfectly acceptable for the compiler to respond by blowing up the planet. 03:16:40 pikhq: OMG NEW T-REX IS LONELY COMIC 03:16:59 Gregor: OMG 03:17:10 pikhq: OMG OMG 03:34:23 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:39:51 pikhq: I know. That one is epic 03:49:52 -!- jcp has joined. 03:58:56 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:00:06 -!- wareya has joined. 04:18:12 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:19:38 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:31:34 -!- Zuu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:32:23 * pikhq is now highly upset. 04:32:48 The only thing I have found that does vertical text only Linux without fiddling is... OpenOffice. 04:33:49 pango? 04:34:07 Pango requires fiddling. 04:34:13 -!- sshc has joined. 04:34:16 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:34:16 Sadly, OpenOffice fucks up the details. 04:34:56 (「 is *technically* a half-width character with an implicit half-width space preceding it, except at the start of lines...) 04:35:29 * coppro cries 04:36:18 It also doesn't do hanging punctuation. 04:36:29 So, it does vertical *text*, but it rapes typesetting. 04:37:36 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:37:36 -!- Zuu has quit (Changing host). 04:37:36 -!- Zuu has joined. 04:38:06 are you trying to do Japanese? 04:38:37 Yes. 04:38:51 I have yet to find anything on Linux that typesets vertical Japanese correctly. 04:42:04 (TeX manages to do horizontal Japanese decently) 04:44:11 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:47:16 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:49:40 -!- sshc has joined. 04:52:38 -!- sshc_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:53:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:55:12 -!- sshc_ has joined. 04:55:21 They keep moving the spider! 04:57:41 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:00:25 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:01:35 -!- wareya has joined. 05:03:34 O, please read the follow spell (if you do not want to dye, or even if you do want to dye): http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/dnd/options/Good_Insane_Spell.s (and suggest a spell level and/or domain) 05:03:51 (Please note I meant if you do or not want to dye, I don't mean die) 05:05:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:11:04 * pikhq fucking *hates* how absolutely nothing handles freaking two consecutive punctuation correct. 05:11:31 」。, if done *right*, would be a single character in width. 05:11:32 pikhq: What do you expect? 05:11:46 zzo38: Proper Japanese typesetting. 05:12:21 Can TeX be made to make Japanese writing including it being done right? 05:12:30 Not easily. 05:14:10 Please tell me what level this spell could be? Could it be a 6th level spell? Or 7th level spell? 05:15:02 zzo38: level 1d9 05:16:08 coppro: Rolled when? 05:17:02 zzo38: whenever 05:17:23 I don't see how it could work at preparation time, but perhaps, every day. But then, that means it can be learned at any level and sometimes you will be unable to use it that day?? 05:17:37 also, a strict reading of 0% would mean that if you rolleit, then rolled, again, you would roll 4 more times 05:17:37 Also I think it is powerful for 1st level spell or 2nd level spell 05:17:41 -!- sshc_ has changed nick to sshc. 05:18:12 coppro: That is not what is meant, if you roll 0% and then 0% again, you are meant to roll 3 more times, how can I clarify that? 05:19:53 zzo38: delete the part about rolling 0% again 05:19:57 (Also, for the level, I do not have a nine sided dice anyways) 05:20:13 d10-1? :P 05:20:20 coppro: What if I put that part in parentheses? 05:20:27 yeah, that would probably be good 05:20:43 Done. It is now in parentheses 05:21:02 But if the level is random, I still don't know how you are supposed to decide when, and how it will work with a random level 05:22:18 But if the level is random I don't like 1d9 or 1d10-1, perhaps 1d4+4 or 1d6+3 would be better, but it still not quite sure how well it can work like that 05:24:46 And which domain would the spell belong to? And what mantle? 05:25:30 Do you like this spell? How often would *you* cast this spell? 05:26:37 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:27:06 -!- wareya has joined. 05:28:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:29:25 Is there anything else unclear about the spell? 05:32:48 zzo38: Probably never, because I value my sanity 05:33:28 Sanity is the trademark of a weak mind. 05:34:00 -- Mark Harrold 05:35:07 (Actually I don't know who Mark Harrold is, and I don't care) 05:35:11 (But that's irrelevant) 05:35:25 Is anything unclear about the spell effect, as it is currently written? 05:35:51 Is the spell sufficiently balanced close enough? 05:41:49 (O, and also, please do not steal my stapler.) 05:42:53 I don't know 05:43:06 it's so silly I don't think it could be said to be balanced one way or another 05:45:06 I still think it is worth 6th or 7th level, though. All the costs of it will make balance about as much as Limited Wish and other spells like that 05:45:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Etc.). 05:45:51 The spell can potentially kill you if you are not careful (and possibly even if you are careful)! 06:15:44 -!- calamari has joined. 06:27:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 06:46:59 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 06:58:34 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: They keep moving the spider!). 07:18:23 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:32:45 -!- kwertii has quit (Quit: bye). 07:39:02 -!- zeotrope has quit (Quit: leaving). 07:40:52 holy crap 07:40:58 I discovered the epicness that is 'dn' in vim 07:41:30 (similar to 'd/foo') 07:49:46 -!- JneTOnope has joined. 07:50:03 -!- JneTOnope has left (?). 07:51:13 coppro, talking of /, I just realised the phrase "spell pretty pi" is a valid sed expression 07:51:34 (same meaning as s/ell /retty /i ) 07:52:13 it should be possible to use that general idea for some interesting obfuscation. Perhaps even sed poems 07:52:35 sed bf interpreter? 07:52:54 calamari, sounds like a good target for such obfuscation. 07:53:02 alas I don't know sed quite well enough 07:53:24 I looked the other day, didn't find one 07:53:39 calamari, wait, isn't sed input bound 07:53:53 at least it need one line of input to compute anything 07:53:55 No, you can do arbitrarily much computation per input line. 07:53:57 ah 07:54:04 You do need one line of input, that's true. 07:54:53 I now really really <3 the concept of motions (and I was a fan before) 07:55:26 anyone know the size of the set of valid unique irc nick chars? With unique I mean counting Foo and foo as the same, since irc is case insensitive. 07:56:34 my goal here is figuring out how many possible nicks of max length 16 there are 07:56:43 The valid characters are different for the first character than the others. 07:56:54 -!- calamari has changed nick to a234567890123456. 07:56:55 fizzie, ah... yes that complicates it indeed 07:57:27 And it also depends on whether your server does that sort-of-standard-but-still-obsoleted case-mapping of former Finnish 7-bit encoding åäö/ÅÄÖ. 07:57:36 * Vorpal checks 07:57:55 on the server I'm calculating this for: CHARSET=ascii 07:57:56 so no 07:58:05 -!- a234567890123456 has changed nick to a_-. 07:58:16 I own _[] on freenode :P 07:58:20 -!- a_- has changed nick to a[]. 07:58:34 -!- a[] has changed nick to a^. 07:58:38 The legal starting characters are A-Z and these: [ ] \ ` _ ^ { | } 07:58:56 And then digits 0-9 in the non-starting ones. 07:59:12 so there you go.. 07:59:16 -!- a^ has changed nick to calamari. 07:59:25 that means for any length n the number of valid nicks are s*t^n where s is size of starting set and t is the size of the set for the rest... 07:59:28 so lets see 07:59:54 35*45^15 07:59:56 is there anything like ! except for plus rather than multiplication? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:09 calamari, you need to include each length 08:00:18 shorter than or equal to 16 08:00:20 true 08:00:25 * Vorpal writes a sum function 08:00:43 wait, got to rush, will do this when I get back 08:00:44 bbl 08:00:59 -!- cheater109 has joined. 08:01:39 If you're in such a rush, just write the terms; there's not *that* many of them. 08:01:46 35+35*45+34*(45^2)+34*(45^3)+34*(45^4)+34*(45^5)+34*(45^6)+34*(45^7)+34*(45^8)+34*(45^9)+34*(45^10)+34*(45^11)+34*(45^12)+34*(45^13)+34*(45^14)+34*(45^15) 08:01:46 218487432379159386374733710 08:02:53 Except don't do what I do and typo that 35 as 34. :p 08:03:39 I think I personally would have factored that out lol 08:04:04 -!- cheater99 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:05:07 >>> sum([35*(45**x) for x in range(16)]) 08:05:07 224913533331487603621049360L 08:05:13 That's the Python one. 08:05:23 224913533331487603621049360L 08:05:28 oh you beat me to it 08:06:16 >>> math.log(a*35)/math.log(2) 08:06:16 87.539500939582467 08:07:28 so you have approx 11 bytes of storage (assuming that's what this was for?) 08:11:14 Did we have that thing here? 08:11:17 !haskell sum (map (\x -> 35*45^x) [0 .. 15]) 08:11:33 224913533331487603621049360 08:11:41 Slow but sure. 08:14:54 !haskell sum (map (\x -> 2^x) [0 .. 100000]) 08:15:30 !haskell 2^100001-1 08:16:06 have you ever written code that you actually use in something that, whenver you look at it, you are both proud and disgusted to have written it? 08:16:54 On the other hand: 08:16:57 !haskell 35*(45^16-1) `div` 44 08:16:59 199800418602876901588806552866006718196085827810836338354305854772629166492851469665497466266489930080632878889111170986003759932153123531258169427084949857503977792597473421864927008547462249585316005570624821774741712105744567803291373820537013518470358293941057152893936030496646909510865005855730416139155419434822044640859527024106615559937958502332397415435715519110434401626405904092358984585185912478419315957471163173350509915946262896124985205236 08:18:10 Well, it would give the same answer, but I guess EgoBot is being busy now. 08:19:14 there it goes 08:21:57 hate to crash the bot and run, but I need to go to bed :) 08:22:16 -!- calamari has quit (Quit: Leaving). 08:22:24 Perhaps it just ignored the stuff that happened while it was busey? 08:22:27 !haskell 42 08:22:29 42 08:22:34 Apparently so. 08:22:55 -!- zeotrope has joined. 08:25:06 !perl $s += 35*(45**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s; 08:25:06 2.24913533331488e+26 08:25:13 That's not quite as useful, thanks to floats. 08:26:04 !perl use bignum; $s += 35*(45**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s; 08:26:06 224913533331487603621049360 08:26:13 That's better. 08:30:44 !j +/ (35*45^]) i. 16x 08:30:55 no J, :( 08:31:26 !help languages 08:31:26 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 08:31:42 Vorpal: Incidentally, CHARSET=ascii does not mean anything about the case-mapping. 08:32:06 Vorpal: If it says CASEMAPPING=rfc1459 it technically speaking should be using the "weird" one. 08:32:41 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 08:33:36 Freenode seems to say that, though it might be lying. IRCnet nowadays says CASEMAPPING=ascii, which I guess means just A-Z → a-z translation. 08:33:58 It's just -3 to the sizes, though. 08:34:09 !perl use bignum; $s += 32*(42**$_) foreach (0 .. 15); print $s; 08:34:10 73173658289716097933147360 08:36:10 (Lunchtime now.) 08:50:38 5" +q"f2+'a4'@*+1",A@"**+'15' ")y/"6'@'Y3'@*+**+****+******* 09:00:57 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 09:05:19 -!- myndzi has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:20:35 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:23:39 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:24:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:49:44 fizzie, ah so it does 09:49:49 so yeah the weird mapping 09:51:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:52:17 15:04:37 Phantom_Hoover_: you're making me want to create an esolang inspired by that syntax ← I once tried, but that was for the export system. 09:52:40 So object → module made object visible in module. 09:53:36 Strange that freenode, which is otherwise very modernized, still keeps the "old" case-mapping, while IRCnet, which tends to be very "conservative" sort of place, doesn't. 09:53:58 fizzie, what old case-mapping? 09:54:42 Phantom_Hoover: IRC's legacy thing where {|} are equal to [\] in nicknames. 09:55:11 fizzie, but that's cool! 09:55:13 (Since nicknames are compared case-insensitively, and those characters are åäö and ÅÄÖ in one old 7-bit Finnish encoding. 09:55:42 Well, they map appropriately on my keyboard. 09:56:15 map shift ['[','\',']'] = ['{','|','}'] 09:56:21 Yes, but it's the wrong way around. 09:56:28 {|} are the lowercase characters. 09:56:39 fizzie, does it matter? 09:56:53 Well, no, you can't actually *see* that, but it's that way in the ToUpper/ToLower tables. 09:58:00 Similarly ~ is lowercase ^, but that doesn't matter so much because ~ is not legal in nicknames. It might matter in some other context. 10:01:14 fis@iris:~$ echo åäö | iconv -t FI 10:01:14 }{| 10:01:21 Nice that iconv still has that thing, too. 10:01:36 (At least this version. Something I tried it on didn't.) 10:02:13 fizzie, so you didn't have {|} in that encoding? 10:02:37 Yes. Not very programmer-friendly, but there's not that much "useless" characters in ASCII. 10:02:55 Also no [\]. 10:03:35 I doubt anyone actually wrote code in that encoding, though. I've mostly seen it in BBSy contexts. 10:04:04 What about BBSes with code? 10:04:29 Even there files tended to be handled separately, and moved over ZMODEM or something that does 8-bit octets. 10:06:29 "8-bit octets" is a redundant tautology, isn't it? 10:07:49 I think I was about to say either "8-bit bytes" or "octets", and managed to produce a hybrid. 10:08:34 Byctets. 10:09:21 Heh... I see some POS systems print product names containing ä using those [ characters... 10:09:57 S => Sale 10:10:14 Well, no|ne can deny that it was predictable. 10:10:25 Oh, I was thing of a completely other four-letter S word. 10:10:42 (Also "piece" instead of "point".) 10:12:00 Mutta eiväthän ääkköset ole enää ongelma! 10:32:22 argh I seem to lack some kernel option for blktrace, but I can't find which one 10:32:39 /sys/kernel/debug is there, but /sys/kernel/debug/block/ is not... 10:35:22 -!- tombom has joined. 10:35:34 BLK_DEV_IO_TRACE perhaps? 10:37:28 fizzie, trying to locate it 10:37:48 aha 10:38:21 fizzie, is there any slowdown when not in use hm? 10:39:16 This is a complete guess, but I'd go with "perhaps some, but probably not much". 10:41:01 right 10:41:27 still I'm wondering what the heck is causing IO more or less all the time 10:42:38 here we go *compiles kernel* 10:45:24 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 10:47:57 I think blktrace's in-kernel infra is done with the "kernel markers" thing, which I believe are pretty low-overhead when not in use, though maybe not completely invisible like kprobes. 10:53:18 fizzie, great... it just displays kcryptd.... How completely useless 10:54:17 Can you trace at bit higher level? The dm-crypt devices are block devices too, after all. 10:54:27 fizzie, I did it on /dev/mapper/root 10:54:31 which is what I mount 10:55:05 fizzie, it seems all writes are dumped onto flush-252:0 or kcryptd while reads go to the apps that did it 10:55:23 tested by catting a large file and also by then teeing it to another file 10:55:52 That's a bit strange, but perhaps understandable. The actual write-to-disk act is a bit decoupled from the application requests. 10:56:24 fizzie, well... my goal is figuring out what apps wake up the disk from sleep in my laptop 10:56:57 What if you temporarily mount it with -O sync? (This may mean horrible amount of disk-trashing and slowness, though.) 10:57:06 fizzie, -O ? 10:57:08 not -o ? 10:57:16 but. I could try that 10:57:31 -o; I don't know where I remembered -O from. 10:57:43 It might still not catch the application, though. 10:57:59 it doesn't 10:58:15 oh it does in one case, but not in another one 10:59:00 rsyslogd, konsole, jbd2/dm-0-8 and flush-252:0 Oh and swapper(0) 10:59:16 what is swapper? it is not the swap device... so it can't be that 11:00:01 fizzie, can you somehow get the file out of it? I'm using btrace with -s for per-program stats 11:00:13 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:00:55 I don't really know. Probably not, since it's done at the block device level; though I guess with knowledge of the file system you could reverse-map blocks back to files. 11:01:03 argh 11:01:13 Some sort of VFS-level tracing thing sounds more suitable for this, but I'm not sure what there is on that level. 11:01:26 I guess lsof should be able to help with figuring out what files are open at least 11:02:18 konsole has 289 files open. Most looks like pipes and some mmaped fontconfig things, and lots of *.so 11:02:41 well, I can ignore /usr, since there is nothing writable for it there 11:06:59 I remember looking for a nice VFS-level IO tracing tool earlier too, and I don't think I had much luck in finding one then. 11:07:36 hm 11:08:01 unix sockets on the file system, those wouldn't cause any writing would they? 11:08:17 it's pretty much that and $HOME/.xsession-errors left after elimination 11:10:12 hm lsof does not show fd flags 11:10:22 as in, r, w or rw 11:10:41 Mhmmm, have you that thing mounted with noatime? 11:11:30 fizzie, relatime 11:11:44 fizzie, due to some apps screwing up with noatime 11:12:07 There are reasonably few of those, but I guess relatime is a good compromise anyway. 11:12:27 well now I can't check any more, since it is on AC it decided to start cronjobs 11:12:42 so atm all I will see is mandb 11:12:56 yes I remounted without the sync flag since then 11:13:27 I don't see how actual write/read on a unix socket would cause any filesystem writes, but it exists as a file so perhaps metadata updates. Doesn't sound very likely. 11:15:08 hm 11:15:09 There's that "fsnotify" thing that I think should be usable for tracing all operations over an entire filesystem (unlike dnotify/inotify where you'd have to watch each directory separately), but I'm not sure if there's sensible userland tools for it. 11:15:46 heh 11:17:18 fizzie, btw, do you happen to know if nvidia works with the new 2.6.35 kernel? 11:18:01 Haven't tried, but there's usually a patch floating out there somewhere very soon. 11:18:39 well, it builds against it 11:18:44 doesn't mean it works nicely though 11:19:48 I've been running the Ubuntu stock kernel lately on the only box I have with a monitor, so... for some reason there hasn't been any pressing need to twiddle with any settings. 11:20:07 fizzie, well I'm updating on my arch linux desktop as well, and I run vanilla there 11:20:26 the arch kernel only has like one or two small patches anyway 11:21:52 You have mail in /var/spool/mail/arvid 11:21:56 $ alpine 11:21:58 Alpine finished -- Closed empty folder "INBOX" 11:22:01 yeah right 11:22:08 whatever sent that first notification failed 11:24:42 fizzie, anyway on my ubuntu laptop I have like three separate things to build out of tree after kernel upgrade: tp_smapi (thinkpad stuff) using some "module-assistant" tool, backported and slightly patched wireless drivers (manual), virtualbox kernel module (supposedly automatic but often fails) 11:24:56 (fails as in fails to run, not as in compile error) 11:26:19 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 11:26:40 Someone has done something sensible to DKMS on Ubuntu, though: it used to take a horrible amount of time (multiple seconds!) on boot-up to do who-knows-what, but it no longer does. Possibly they've moved some stuff to the hooks it runs when installing new kernels. 11:29:58 -!- Vorpal has joined. 11:31:54 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 11:36:39 fizzie, I sort-of noticed that. 11:36:58 Although I've had a couple of boots hang lately, so... 11:44:14 on desktop it is dm-1, dm-2 and dm-3 that are being written to. Those are home, var and tmp hm 11:45:33 oh well, /home is irc logs... or at least part of the activity on there is. 11:49:25 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why CL's standard doesn't require tail call elimination. 11:49:58 It's hardly a taxing requirement, compared to piles of mud like LOOP and FORMAT. 11:57:59 It might be somewhat tricky if your implementation is to compile into a higher-level language that doesn't do tail calls. 11:59:28 I'm thinking mostly C here. Still, I doubt Scheme's tail-call necessities have ever stopped anyone from implementing it. (I've seen non-conformant non-tail-callsy Schemes, though.) 12:00:28 fizzie, C is hardly higher level compared to CL ;P 12:00:37 (yeah that isn't what you meant, but that is what you said!) 12:01:07 I thought about clarifying, but... 12:01:17 :P 12:03:45 what happens if you mmap a file and then close the fd before munmapping it? 12:09:32 It might keep the file "open" still, much like what happens if you close a dup'd fd, but that's just a guess. 12:10:48 "The mmap() function adds an extra reference to the file associated with the file descriptor fildes which is not removed by a subsequent close() on that file descriptor. This reference is removed when there are no more mappings to the file." -- SUSv2, http://opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908775/xsh/mmap.html 12:13:09 (I don't have the POSIX pdfs handily downloaded here at work.) 12:13:21 ah 12:13:25 (And can never remember where they were in the web.) 12:14:25 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/functions/mmap.html apparently. It's the same text there, though. 12:14:49 Except that it says "shall add" instead of "adds". 12:15:07 btw how does the kernel talk to hardware? I was reading dmesg after kernel upgrade and saw: "[ 0.000000] Detected use of extended apic ids on hypertransport bus", it makes me wonder how it does that 12:15:44 I haven't been keeping up on hardware interfaces at all. 12:15:59 A lot of it is memory-mapped instead of I/O ports nowadays, I believe. 12:16:00 right, it was aimed at the channel in general 12:16:13 fizzie, well considering hypertransport it very likely is 12:18:06 wtf at "[ 0.000000] Aperture too small (32 MB) than (64 MB)" 12:18:16 it said on the line above it was 256 MB 12:18:27 but the wtf here was the spelling 12:18:35 or more correctly the lack of grammar 12:21:41 That's what you get when you leave error messages up to programmers. 12:21:50 Especially hairy kernel programmers. (That's another tautology.) 12:23:28 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:24:40 The cpu-core local APIC is talked to via a 4k memory-mapped APIC register space, and the addresses for that are set by a particular MSR. I wouldn't be surprised if it's like that for other close-to-processor things too. 12:27:26 fizzie, actually I believe it might be due to Japanese programmers. Reading kernel changelog I have come to the conclusion that many Japanese programmers have a most curious grammar 12:32:14 -!- coppro has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:33:05 [ 1.844705] loop: module loaded <-- um, it is compiled in XD 12:34:11 -!- coppro has joined. 12:34:11 -!- coppro has quit (Changing host). 12:34:11 -!- coppro has joined. 12:34:28 coppro, your cloak, it does nothing: 12:34:32 * coppro (~scshunt@nat/uwaterloo/x-gjuhzltilsfaavyu) has joined #esoteric 12:34:32 * coppro has quit (Changing host) 12:34:32 * coppro (~scshunt@unaffiliated/scshunt) has joined #esoteric 12:34:47 well, your second one that is 12:34:55 the first one I don't know, looks strange 12:37:25 Kernel sources are always nice reading. 12:37:37 if (bpp == 24) { /* sorry */ } else { ... 12:38:12 It's at least nice that they're sorry. 12:38:18 fizzie, I still think #define SECONDS_PER_MINUTE 60 from the freebsd pc speaker driver is the best wtf from kernel sources I have seen so far 12:38:28 at least it wasn't a runtime variable 12:39:01 another wtf thing 12:39:03 [ 5.987224] input: PC Speaker as /devices/platform/pcspkr/input/input4 12:39:13 how is the pc speaker an input device? 12:40:15 fizzie, oh and they fail at locking for kernel messages: 12:40:16 [ 6.755112] md0: 12:40:16 [ 6.755445] md2: detected capacity change from 0 to 995702931456 12:40:16 [ 6.755460] md2: unknown partition table 12:40:16 [ 6.794998] unknown partition table 12:40:27 the first and the last line I think are the same 12:40:36 only way that makes any sense at all 12:41:14 Might be a performance thing. 12:41:20 true 12:41:31 it repeats the unknown partition table for md2 several times btw 12:41:44 which is quite logical, since it contains a lvm pv 12:41:56 And I think the speaker-as-an-input-device thing could be related to input-device-layer beeps. 12:42:34 [ 31.376013] sixxs: no IPv6 routers present <-- how absurd. It is an IPv6 tunnel... 12:42:43 well, the tun interface for the tunnel 12:43:36 You can still run addrconf over it; the message is related to that. 12:44:10 fizzie, btw a strange thing I noticed when starting X, is that it resets the acoustic management thingy on the harddrives. I fail to see how. 12:44:13 there is: 12:44:15 [ 260.048439] ata1.00: configured for UDMA/133 12:44:15 [ 260.048448] ata1: EH complete 12:44:15 [ 260.236441] ata2.00: configured for UDMA/133 12:44:15 [ 260.236452] ata2: EH complete 12:44:18 in the kernel logs 12:44:23 at that point 12:44:38 this happened on 2.6.34 too 12:44:51 Strange. Maybe a side effect of some other hardware-initialization/query thing? Who knows. 12:45:11 Peeking at my boot-time dmesgs too, on the single-core Atom box: "ACPI: NR_CPUS/possible_cpus limit of 1 reached. Processor 1/0x1 ignored." 12:45:12 yeah who knows 12:45:20 fizzie, wtf 12:45:37 No idea. I don't even know if that latter index is 0-based or not. 12:45:39 fizzie, my kernel is compiled without SMP support on the desktop, since it is single core and custom kernel 12:45:44 fizzie, HT? 12:45:53 as in Hyper Threading 12:45:56 not Hyper Transport 12:46:04 There is HT on the Atom, at least. I don't remember about the kernel side. 12:46:15 well that would explain it 12:46:19 it ignored the second core 12:46:21 err 12:46:23 second thread 12:47:01 I wouldn't think hyperthreading to show up as a separate processor in ACPI though, but I guess it might. 12:49:36 ata2.00: ATA-0: ELITE PRO CF CARD 16GB, Ver2.19K, max UDMA/100 -- the poor man's SSD. 12:49:53 (There's a compact flash card inside.) 12:51:22 I don't have a pcspeaker input device, but I have this other sort of beep: input: HDA Digital PCBeep as /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1b.0/input/input2 12:51:26 -!- Flonk has joined. 12:51:41 Hi hi 12:51:51 Aha, Flonk! 12:51:52 Hi lo. 12:52:00 Lo lo. 12:52:07 Lo hi. 12:52:10 :D 12:52:16 Grey sequence¬ 12:53:09 Heh, CPUID strings from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CPUID -- "AMDisbetter!" - early engineering samples of AMD K5 processor 12:53:27 Then they went with the boring AuthenticAMD, but I guess it at least is still a ripoff of GenuineIntel. 12:55:07 fizzie, that is less UDMA than my sata drives 12:55:11 they are UDMA/133 12:55:24 Hey, it's a compactflash card; cut it some slack. 12:55:33 It's not like it's going to saturate the bus anyway. 12:56:00 fizzie, a bit strange on my thinkpad, DVD is UDMA/133, hdd is UDMA/100 12:56:02 that's absurd 12:56:13 on my desktop the dvd is UDMA/33, but then it is also PATA 12:59:06 The sensible way around on this work-workstation. 12:59:21 ata1.00: ATA-8: Hitachi HDP725016GLA380, GMBOA5BA, max UDMA/133; ata2.00: ATAPI: PLDS DVD+/-RW DH-16A6S, YD11, max UDMA/100. 13:00:54 "agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: detected 32764K stolen memory". Hey, who's been stealing my memory?! 13:01:15 Or possibly the IT folks here have been installing stolen goods into the boxen. 13:01:54 fizzie, what sort of GPU? It should perhaps be shared video memory? 13:02:42 from thinkpad: 13:02:45 [ 0.758976] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: Intel Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset 13:02:45 [ 0.759959] agpgart-intel 0000:00:00.0: detected 32764K stolen memory 13:03:02 well strange it says agpgart, I'm 99% certain it is PCIe 13:03:15 well,* 13:04:18 It's some Intel integrated, I guess. 13:05:40 Intel "Q45/Q43", whatever it's like 13:15:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:19:35 sebbu2! 13:20:46 maybe ? 13:22:44 Maybe Sebbu2! 13:23:00 ? 13:23:07 Just sebbu2! 13:23:27 Just sebbu2 >>= return! 13:23:30 is there anything like ! except for plus rather than multiplication? 13:23:39 triangular numbers 13:23:40 Vorpal, sum? 13:24:07 There's no special notation, because there's a nice closed form. 13:24:19 aka n(n+1)/2 13:24:54 i think i may have seen /\n (/\ here being a triangle) 13:25:15 n? 13:25:25 Although that already means something else. 13:25:36 yeah 13:26:06 also binomial coefficient n+1 over 2 13:26:07 DAMN YOU, GTK! 13:26:34 Here the question was more about the sum of a geometric series, $ \sum_{k=0}^n 35*45^k = 35 \frac{45^{k+1} - 1}{45 - 1}$. 13:26:45 It REFUSES to acknowledge my .XCompose! 13:26:49 ah 13:26:50 Uh, with n = 15. 13:27:26 For some reason I hadn't realized EgoBot has a handy !perl too. 13:27:44 Phantom_Hoover, .XCompose? 13:27:48 hm 13:27:56 does that work in any other app? 13:28:02 Vorpal, yeah, xterm. 13:28:02 Phantom_Hoover: Did you try the XIM thing? 13:28:09 Phantom_Hoover, how curious. File a bug? 13:28:18 fizzie, no, because I wasn't able to work out what it was. 13:28:44 Vorpal: "It's not a bug, it's a feature." GTK+ has a hardcoded compose table, and they know it already. 13:29:33 fizzie, what was that about the geometric series? 13:30:17 The XIM thing is to stick export GTK_IM_MODULE="xim" into some suitable place, but it also means you might lose some GTK-specific input finery. 13:30:58 fizzie, argh 13:31:02 What was what about geometric series? 13:31:08 fizzie, why do they hard code it 13:31:13 how can that be a feature? 13:31:29 fizzie, I mean that formula you gave above. 13:31:53 Phantom_Hoover: Well, it's true, isn't it? 13:32:04 fizzie, I think so. 13:32:05 fizzie, and what GTK specific input stuff would one lose? 13:32:33 It looks correct according to what I can remember of the finite calculus. 13:32:37 Vorpal: The hardcoded table is (or was, when it was made) an improvement over X's default tables; and I guess they wanted it also to be locale-*in*sensitive, to be more harmonious across locales. 13:33:03 fizzie, that seems backwards. Besides it is afaik missing pi and many math symbols 13:33:11 which are the ones I'm actually interested in on compose 13:33:31 So is/was the X table, I think. 13:33:32 Vorpal, that is exactly why I want to shoot the people who did it. 13:33:59 "We're going to hardcode the compose table and leave all the interesting symbols out!" 13:34:26 And there's a GTK-specific unicode composition thing; ctrl-shift-u + string of hex digits with ctrl-shift held down composes a Unicode character. There might be more stuff for more complicated languages, I don't know about that. 13:36:11 -!- tombom has joined. 13:38:27 fizzie, compose p i would be nice 13:38:38 and so on 13:40:02 fizzie, but what will I be missing with xim? 13:41:46 Whatever you get with SCIM, which I think is what it uses otherwise. I have no idea what that is, since my language is so trivial to input. 13:41:58 At least that Unicode thing I mentioned, I think. 13:43:12 Orrrr... or is it so that the hardcoded composite table is only in GTK_IM_MODULE=gtk-im-context-simple. It could be so, too. 13:43:19 !simpleacro 13:43:24 I am a man from the future. 13:43:36 BLS 13:44:48 Boring Lomography System 13:47:10 !simpleacro 13:47:12 JLLVV 13:47:36 John Lewis Low Value Verisimilitude. 13:47:37 Phantom_Hoover: From what I can tell, in a 'buntu system you should use "im-switch -s default-xim" to make a user-specific "default Gnome and Qt to use XIM" setting. 13:47:42 (Haven't tried that.) 13:48:17 It seems to mangle some environment variables that xinit sets, but I don't know how the user-level customizations happen. 14:00:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:01:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:02:20 fizzie, im-switch didn't work. 14:02:38 You did restart your X, right? 14:02:47 Yep. 14:02:55 That's why I left the channel. 14:03:05 Well, you ping-timeouted. 14:03:35 Yeah, XChat seems to have problems with handling quits gracefully. 14:04:19 -!- tombom has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:04:33 You could echo $GTK_IM_MODULE in a xterm to see if it even managed to put that variable in. Oh, and also to run a GTK app manually with that, something like "GTK_IM_MODULE=xim xchat", and see if the textfields there understand .Xcompose. 14:04:51 (If not, then I don't have many leftover suggestions.) 14:05:32 Well, it's stopped working in xterm as well. 14:05:44 You've made things WORSE 14:06:05 Wait, aha! 14:06:33 Launching xterm from gnome-terminal doesn't work, but it does when I use alt-f2. 14:07:35 So yeah, it's GTK_IM_MODULE. 14:07:56 Heh-eh. And the manual variable-setting? 14:08:38 fizzie, works. 14:08:57 Now I need to make it be set when GNOME starts, though. 14:10:28 Well, gnome-session startup scripts source ~/.gnomerc before starting, so you can put an export command there. 14:11:01 What syntax does that need? 14:11:11 export GTK_IM_MODULE=xim? 14:11:14 It's ran with ".", so just write export GTK_IM_MODULE=xim there. 14:11:43 If you want to undo whatever im-switch messed up, you can remove the ~/.xinput.d directory it makes. I don't think there should be anything else than im-switch's mess in there. (But maybe rename it for one X restart before outright deleting it.) 14:12:22 Oh, it seems to have done things with en_US. 14:12:31 I am, naturally, using en_GB. 14:15:39 Hhheh. You can try that "-z all_ALL" flag to im-switch if you feel like it. 14:42:07 -!- augur has joined. 14:46:12 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:46:26 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Client Quit). 14:47:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:47:56 -!- chickenzilla has quit (Quit: Changing server). 14:50:15 -!- chickenzilla has joined. 14:55:20 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:01:22 -!- Killerkid has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:04:00 -!- sftp has joined. 15:08:08 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:09:15 -!- derdon has joined. 15:14:08 -!- Killerkid has joined. 15:23:48 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:25:11 Gregor: I got music! Finally! Thanks for your advice. 15:30:47 -!- relet has joined. 15:34:50 cpressey, found a nice soundfont? 15:35:13 Vorpal: The "Chorium" one Gregor suggested sounds fine 15:35:17 hm 15:35:21 cpressey, isn't that piano only? 15:35:25 or was that another one 15:35:49 Vorpal: I hope not, otherwise that piano sounded a lot like a bassoon. 15:36:14 cpressey, hah :P 15:36:37 cpressey, how large is the file? Over 100 MB right? 15:36:55 Vorpal: I don't remember. Probably. It took a while to download. 15:37:58 cpressey, is it too much to hope for that you are good at decoding routing tables? 15:38:10 I'm trying to make sense of my ipv6 routing table. 15:38:14 Vorpal: Yes, it's too much to hope for. 15:38:16 ah 15:45:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:53:07 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 15:55:24 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:55:25 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 16:03:30 -!- augur has joined. 16:04:06 I love how the standard icon for "save" in our culture is still the 3-1/2" floppy disc... 16:09:28 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:13:43 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:14:17 -!- augur has joined. 16:14:33 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 16:16:59 -!- Vorpal has joined. 16:24:39 http://gizmodo.com/5614433/this-is-the-first-imax-3d-porn-movie-yes-imax-3d-porn "I don't know how many people would like to watch a gigantic penis waving in 3D a few centimeters from their faces" 16:26:16 hah 16:26:32 Gregor, I invoke Rule 34 on IMAX itself! 16:34:57 3d money shot? 16:51:13 Gregor, not a penis, but maybe a boob :> 16:56:00 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:04:47 -!- tombom has joined. 17:10:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 17:25:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:50:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:51:50 I have a macbook here that claims it get an ip from dhcp from the wrong segment 17:57:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:57:51 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:14:06 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:15:11 -!- Vorpal has joined. 18:21:02 I have a macbook here that claims it get an ip from dhcp from the wrong segment <-- fixed by restarting router -_- 18:23:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:34:01 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:35:38 -!- cpressey has joined. 18:37:32 -!- cpressey has left (?). 18:43:15 -!- sftp has joined. 18:46:02 What's the current state of the art in cracking SHA512? 18:48:25 Phantom_Hoover, last I checked it was "har har, good luck" 18:48:33 try google 18:48:43 Vorpal, tried. Brute force was all. 18:48:51 Phantom_Hoover, that would take forever 18:48:59 And the first brute forcer to come up was in Perl. 18:49:12 -!- sftp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:49:16 Is Perl even compiled in any form? 18:50:17 Phantom_Hoover, as far as I heard it is likely your CPU will be gone due to decay before you break the SHA512 by brute force on current state of the art PCs. 18:50:22 Bytecode. 18:50:43 Vorpal, even for relatively short strings? 18:50:48 and that was assuming some reasonably optimised implementation in C iirc 18:51:13 Phantom_Hoover, well I think it was for an 650 MB ISO in that case 18:51:15 Well, I suppose for passwords it would have to be. 18:51:20 Oh, for an ISO? 18:51:53 Phantom_Hoover, well yes, but even assuming passwords it is probably going to take way too long to be feasible, assuming passwords are shorter than ISOs in general :P 18:52:11 Phantom_Hoover, hm why are you asking this? 18:52:24 Vorpal, just curious. 18:52:26 besides for passwords it will probably be salted 18:52:40 No passwords are involved. 18:57:30 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:00:51 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:01:43 Perl's "bytecode" is also not very low-level: the parsing is done, but the bytecode form is a (bit optimized) parse tree; it's pretty far from something like JVM bytecode. (Or Perl 6 and the Parrot VM, for that matter.) 19:03:13 fizzie, or llvm 19:03:27 even further from that 19:04:58 -!- sftp has joined. 19:05:28 There used to be a separate, experimental set of tools for compiling to the bytecode separately, loading and executing it, as well as a translation to C, but those were dropped from the Perl 5.10 distribution. 19:05:39 "perlcc, the byteloader and the supporting modules (B::C, B::CC, B::Bytecode, etc.) are no longer distributed with the perl sources. Those experimental tools have never worked reliably, and, due to the lack of volunteers to keep them in line with the perl interpreter developments, it was decided to remove them instead of shipping a broken version of those. The last version of those modules can be found with perl 5.9.4." 19:09:08 You can run something like perl -MO=Concise -e '$a = $b+42;' to see a bit what the bytecode looks like. 19:10:07 wow 19:10:16 never seen this heavy rain before 19:13:01 -!- zeotrope has joined. 19:16:35 fizzie: Few interpreters have low-level bytecode. 19:17:22 Perhaps that is so. I have no clue what Python gets mangled to, for example. 19:17:33 More typically, you're just wanting to make interpreting faster than walking a parse tree. 19:20:04 Python's bytecode seems to be for a rather low-level stack-based VM. 19:20:13 Hmm. 19:20:35 Based on the opcode list at http://docs.python.org/library/dis.html anyway. 19:21:03 -!- cpressey has joined. 19:21:15 On the other hand, the BASIC's I've known mostly just tokenize commands and that's about it. 19:22:08 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:27:20 Are there any CPUs with native support for complexes? 19:27:22 What's so slow about walking a (threaded) parse tree? The only thing I can think of is that it's bulkier and so will have worse cache performance. 19:27:40 SSE plausibly might, but I can't recall any single instruction for it 19:29:37 Phantom_Hoover: I don't think it does. 19:29:59 Your generic SIMD that can do 128-bit values as pairs of two 64-bit double-precision floats will obviously help in manipulating complex numbers, though. 19:32:30 Well, (a+bi)(c+di) = ac-bd+bci+adi 19:32:40 cpressey: It's bulkier, has worse cache performance, and often has more requisite branching. 19:32:58 Making it slower by constant factors. 19:34:44 Phantom_Hoover: TI's TMS320C64x+ has complex-multiply (of two pairs of signed, packed 16-bit values; it's a 16-bit fixpoint thing) opcodes, but it's not exactly a traditional "CPU", rather a DSP thing. 19:35:47 fizzie, I think you could do it on SSE with a small number of instructions. 19:35:53 pikhq: Well, "requisite branching"... in a parse tree, you always get an absolute(ish) pointer to the next node. In a flat-memory VM, you can ++ an offset to get to the next instruction. I guess it does take slightly longer to load up the absolute pointer, than it does to increment and resolve the offset. 19:36:21 cpressey: Small constant factor. 19:36:54 The more *noticable* changes from bytecode are probably because that allows for optimisation. 19:37:12 Well. I guess you can directly optimise a parse tree, but that's a bit harder. 19:38:05 Phantom_Hoover: Sure, and probably even less instructions with the new fused-multiply-add instruction sets ("a = a*b + c", basically) they've talked about. (And PPC has that particular operation, though I'm not sure if their SIMD extension, AltiVec, has.) 19:38:42 * Phantom_Hoover is trying to work out what the instructions would be 19:39:46 That TI DSP is also a.. was it a 8-way VLIW thing, so you could most likely do it in reasonably few cycles, even if there'd be several "instructions". Probably two, since you can do two general multiplications per cycle. 19:41:48 Does SSE even give you the ability to work with packed doubles? 19:42:00 I can't find any mention of mulpd. 19:43:43 SSEn, for some number of n > 1, does, IIRC. 19:44:22 There's a MULPD listed in this overview. 19:44:46 "The MULPD instruction is an SSE2 instruction." 19:44:50 Okay, so n >= 2. 19:45:14 pikhq: Interesting. At any rate, bytecode doesn't seem to help CPython's speed much (compared to rb and perl which I hear are more parse-tree like.) lua and erl use a register machine model instead of a stack machine, and they both claim to have better performance because of it. 19:46:05 fizzie, but SSE2 is the baseline nowdays 19:46:09 Parrot is a register-style VM too. 19:46:10 all x86-64 has SSE2 at least 19:46:21 fizzie, aren't most fast VMs that? 19:46:51 cpressey: Stack machine's simpler, register machine's simpler to optimise. 19:46:58 cpressey, also erl? don't you mean beam? 19:47:00 I don't know about that; aren't most fast VMs JITting sort of thing? 19:47:18 well, that is even faster 19:47:18 Vorpal: Pedant. 19:47:25 So anyway, we need to have ac, ad, bc and bd to multiply two things. 19:47:30 cpressey, I prefer pendant ;P 19:47:30 s/things/complexes/ 19:49:02 Phantom_Hoover, ac ad? HERETIC! 19:49:02 Phantom_Hoover: You might find SHUFPD helpful; like the name says, it shuffles the halves around. 19:49:13 Phantom_Hoover, you are using multi-letter variables! 19:49:23 Vorpal, uh, no. 19:49:25 for something as mathematical as multiplication 19:49:34 It's multiplication. 19:49:49 Phantom_Hoover, you mean (a+bi)*(c+di), thus a, b, c and d? 19:49:54 m * u * l * t * i * p * l * y 19:49:56 Yes. 19:50:08 Phantom_Hoover, see, no need to resort to multi-letter variables 19:50:24 Vorpal, it's to indicate the necessary multiplications. 19:50:52 Phantom_Hoover, oh, those looks like variables though 19:50:53 hm 19:50:57 (a+bi)(c+di)=ac-bd+adi+bci 19:51:05 Phantom_Hoover, yeah where did the i go there? 19:51:23 * cpressey stores i in a 64-bit register while no one is looking 19:51:35 Phantom_Hoover, you need to keep track of the i. You could end up with them canceling each other out 19:51:53 Vorpal: Are you familiar with complex numbers? 19:52:07 cpressey, yes, and I'm referring to multiplying with conjugate 19:52:10 Vorpal, i*i=-1. You should REALLY know that. 19:52:19 Phantom_Hoover, yes indeed 19:52:45 Vorpal, I don't get what your problem is. 19:53:24 (a+bi)(a-bi)=a^2+b^2 19:53:32 No problem. 19:53:37 Phantom_Hoover, ah I see what you did there, you are discussing this on a rather lower level, while I'm thinking of symbolic manipulation like a CAS 19:53:49 Vorpal, yes. 19:53:55 Phantom_Hoover, that explains everything 19:54:11 It would work in a CAS! 19:54:19 Your point still makes no sense! 19:54:37 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:55:15 * Sgeo is Henry the VIIth he is 19:55:18 Phantom_Hoover, Phantom_Hoover, yes but it would be nonsensical not to treat it as ac-bd+adi+bci so you could remove terms symbolically in case it turned out that was possible. Such as ac=bd for example 19:55:27 erm, VIII 19:55:33 Phantom_Hoover, bbl 20:01:18 -!- cpressey has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:03:18 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:05:51 Most languages where you define named functions, it's like they have dynamic scope (for those function names). Especially if you can change them. I'm thinking Scheme's "define" here... 20:07:30 -!- cal153 has quit. 20:08:06 cpressey, define is *for* dynamic scope. 20:08:39 let is for lexical scope. 20:10:07 -!- cpressey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:10:40 Well, assuming define is similar to CL's def* operators. 20:11:43 cpressy: erlang and haskell use lexical scope for functions iirc 20:11:47 Ack, it doesn't. 20:12:11 But you can just use let for functions in Scheme. 20:12:16 -!- cal153 has joined. 20:12:49 you can use a function before it is defined in erlang after all, as long as it is declared further down in the file everything is OK 20:12:53 same goes for haskell iirc 20:12:54 not for C 20:13:26 Oh, in the sense that it only works if you've defined it earlier in the first file? 20:13:31 -!- cpressey has joined. 20:13:52 cpressey, how do you mean "dynamic scope" here? 20:13:58 Interwebs so flaky today 20:14:22 Phantom_Hoover: dynamic binding of names. instead of lexical binding. 20:14:37 It's not really dynamic. I'm not explaining it well. 20:14:48 cpressey, well, you can use let to make lexically scoped functions in Scheme anyway. 20:14:49 cpressy: erlang and haskell use lexical scope for functions iirc 20:14:53 you can use a function before it is defined in erlang after all, as long as it is declared further down in the file everything is OK 20:14:53 same goes for haskell iirc 20:14:53 not for C 20:14:59 assuming that is the sense you meant 20:15:19 cpressey, that is one way to interpret what you mean 20:15:25 another would be runtime dynamic 20:15:31 as in bash or elisp 20:15:42 Vorpal: that's not how I see it 20:15:49 which doesn't apply very well to any compiled-to-low-enough-level language 20:15:56 cpressey, then what do you mean 20:16:04 Vorpal: never mind 20:16:22 cpressey, do you mean dynamic-as-in-elisp? 20:18:11 A part of it boils down to "When someone saves your life, you belong to that person. She saved your life. Let's respect local customs!" 20:18:28 (3rd episode of Stargate Infinity) 20:20:45 And... internal inconsistency 20:21:16 One or two episodes ago, the bad guys would apparently find it easy to keep chasing through the Stargate, but now it's difficult to determine last dialled addresses 20:21:33 (The latter is more canonical in Stargate-verse, but SGI is very uncanonical anyway) 20:31:15 Sgeo, what 20:31:21 Sgeo, this is completely out of context 20:31:33 Stargate Infinity 20:31:40 third eisode 20:31:44 " A part of it boils down to" <-- part of what? 20:31:57 the episode's plot 20:31:59 Sgeo, yes but you used "it" without defining what "it" referred to 20:32:01 before 20:32:27 It was a forward-referring it. Don't be so linear! 20:32:36 har har 20:50:54 Hrm 20:51:02 Vorpal, why the nick change? 20:53:40 Is there an SSE instruction to add the two doubles in an xmm register and store the result in the low quadword? 20:54:44 Or to negate the second double in a register? 21:00:51 Phantom_Hoover: HADDPD sort-of does it. HADDPD xmm1, xmm2/mem128 adds the two doubles of xmm1 and stores the result in low half of xmm1; but it also adds the two doubles of xmm2/mem128 and stores that result in high half of xmm1, so you lose that half if you needed it for something. 21:02:16 Well, basically, if xmm0 is (a,b) and xmm1 is (c,d) I want xmm0 to be (a-b,c+d) 21:02:19 As for the negation, I don't know about that, but you can ADDSUBPD xmm1, xmm2/mem128 to simultaneously do xmm1:high += xmm2:high and xmm1:low -= xmm2:low, which is sort-of the same as ADDPD but with the second argument negated. 21:16:13 Phantom_Hoover: I don't know elisp. What Scheme does is definitely a kind of dynamic scope for "define", though. (Even though it's touted as a "lexically scoped Lisp" -- that doesn't apply to "define".) 21:16:29 -!- augur has joined. 21:16:53 cpressey, can you give me a code snippet to demonstrate what you're getting at? 21:17:06 Just to clarify. 21:17:51 Phantom_Hoover: http://pastie.org/1100763 21:18:02 Vorpal, why the nick change? <-- why not 21:18:07 No "Scheme" markup on pastie.org. But there is "Go". Peasants! 21:18:19 Pheasants! 21:18:23 anyone has any experience with cross compiling the linux kernel here? 21:18:33 Vorpal, dunno, haven't noticed it before 21:18:50 FireFly, well yeah, it is reasonably new 21:18:53 Or rather, hadn't* 21:18:58 cpressey, what's out of place there? 21:19:19 Phantom_Hoover: "k" is dynamically scoped. 21:19:29 cpressey, in the sense that r can reference it? 21:19:53 In the sense that its meaning within r varies, yes. 21:20:07 r does not "capture" k. 21:21:09 cpressey, well, it couldn't really work otherwise. 21:21:50 Well, it could keep the reference, but that's probably not what you'd expect. 21:21:56 Does Common Lisp really suck that bad? 21:22:04 Sgeo, no, of course not. 21:22:11 What gave you that impression? 21:22:30 It's far from perfect, but it's a pretty good language, all in all. 21:23:21 Phantom_Hoover: What I expect is that if a language touts itself as being "lexically scoped"... well, whatever. 21:23:37 What I expect doesn't matter. 21:24:10 For me, the easiest scoping to understand is no scoping. 21:24:23 Woo, just won apples2apples! 21:24:25 scheme > CL though 21:24:25 Want a local variable? Find an object and attach a property to it. 21:24:35 And, uh, it's really, really easy to make global variables. 21:24:45 cpressey, it's lexically scoped in the sense that if you call a function inside a let block or similar construct, then that function can't access any of the variables in that block. 21:24:46 Eew. I no longer like no-scoping. 21:24:58 Warrigal, why? 21:25:10 Because it makes it really, really easy to make global variables. 21:25:32 Newspeak is pretty much the opposite, right? 21:25:35 Warrigal, I thought you meant that was a bonus? though I agree it is horrible 21:26:30 Phantom_Hoover: I realize that. It's also dynamically scoped in the sense that if you call a function after a define, that function does access the names that you just (re)defined. 21:26:50 Also, sometimes, scoping is pretty obvious. For example, function parameters should obviously be available to the function body. 21:27:19 cpressey, well, yes. It has both. 21:28:01 Now, how about Unlambda-style scoping? Variables are not allowed. Your program must consist entirely of built-in constants and literals. 21:28:04 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:28:25 Warrigal, there is no scoping in UL. 21:28:46 -!- zeotrope has joined. 21:29:15 * cpressey starts singing that Bon Jovi song about "where the streets have no name" 21:29:50 Or is that U2? 21:30:17 Phantom_Hoover: I make no claims for this to be optimal, but here's one way: http://sprunge.us/XLYL -- you could perhaps get rid of some shuffling. 21:30:25 I think it's U2. The Bon Jovi song has some line about "the streets are the same, only the names have changed" 21:30:37 cpressey, what are the examples of non-dynamically scoped languages then 21:30:42 cpressey, haskell? erlang? 21:30:50 Vorpal: Haskell 21:31:05 cpressey, erlang is too excluding hot-swapping of modules 21:31:27 cpressey, which is really kind of out-of-band compared to scoping 21:31:29 Maybe I should learn Erlang at some point 21:31:30 Vorpal: that's why I didn't say Erlang 21:31:39 I think I tried once 21:31:46 cpressey, but I claim that is like unloading a *.so and then loading another 21:31:46 Kind of gave up caring about it 21:31:56 cpressey, haskell supports plugins and such 21:32:02 thus dynamically scoped 21:32:31 Vorpal: OK, all languages that support that are dynamically scoped in this sense, then, 21:32:49 (It's a bit depressing that the actual ops (three: mulpd, mulpd, addsubpd) are fewer than move-around instructions (four: movddup, unpckhpd, 2*shufpd).) 21:32:53 cpressey, yes, and in the sense that haskell is not dynamically scoped, so is erlang not 21:33:24 Vorpal: Yes - was I not clear when I said "all languages"? 21:33:41 cpressey, well, there could be languages not supporting this 21:33:58 Phantom_Hoover: I'm using "scoping" metaphorically. 21:34:05 fizzie, OK. 21:34:06 Vorpal: Yes - was I not clear when I said "all languages" *in the phrase* "all languages that support this"? 21:35:06 Unlambda has no variables; thus, an Unlambda-scoped language is a language that has no variables. 21:35:47 cpressey, well I just wanted to point out that erlang is in fact as statically scoped as haskell. Then I replied to "all languages" 21:35:50 Maybe horizontal add/sub could help in the shuffling, though perhaps not so much since there's only one of each, and haddpd/hsubpd always performs at least two adds/subs. 21:36:12 cpressey, actually, there is a useful notation of "static in the sense of haskell and erlang" 21:36:37 cpressey, in both cases plugins/hot-swap-upgrades can be considered out of band activities 21:36:47 that is not really part of the actual language and it's syntax 21:38:04 Vorpal: I assume you mean "notion". Calling it an "out-of-band activity" is just a form of handwaving imo. 21:38:35 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:38:41 cpressey, err yes notion 21:38:52 -!- augur has joined. 21:38:56 cpressey, and no it isn't really hand waving 21:39:44 cpressey, it is not something which is done during normal operation, you need to perform some kind of loading of a new compiled file 21:39:50 Vorpal: Erlang processes are purely functional. Oh, you're using the process dictionary? Well, that's out of band. 21:40:07 cpressey, well, I think there is a difference there. Oh also ETS 21:40:39 The point is, I can pick anything, call it "out of band" and not "normal", and say anything I want about the rest. 21:40:42 cpressey, and I do not consider erlang to be pure. Pure with a few exceptions yes, but that doesn't make pure 21:41:07 cpressey, well, it is out of band in much the same way as hardware replacement is. On a server with hot swap 21:41:18 cpressey, also be careful when hotswapping cpus 21:41:21 they can be quite hot 21:41:27 Vorpal: DULY NOTED 21:41:42 cpressey, oh and easy to damage too 21:42:07 cpressey, I never hot swapped one myself but I watched someone do it 21:42:12 I was rather scared 21:44:14 Phantom_Hoover: On the other hand, no-one is *forcing* your complex numbers to have the order (real,imag) in memory. You can save one shuffle (thanks to the addsubpd "direction") if you just keep your doubles the other way around: http://sprunge.us/KQCc 21:44:39 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:44:49 -!- matrix has joined. 21:46:49 -!- matrix has left (?). 21:47:16 fizzie, what does addsubpd do? 21:47:26 fizzie, also couldn't this be done better with SSE3 perhaps? 21:48:00 Vorpal: Given [a,b] in dst and [c,d] in src, it does dst <- [a+c,b-d]. Adds the high halves and subs the low ones. 21:48:24 fizzie, how did they come up with that one 21:48:42 It's a reasonable thing! 21:49:00 And actually ADDSUBPD (as well as HADDPD/HSUBPD/MOVDDUP) *are* SSE3 instructions. Oh well. 21:49:46 fizzie, so why not use them 21:50:11 I just did. 21:50:22 "More specifically, instructions to add and subtract the multiple values stored within a single register have been added. These instructions simplify the implementation of a number of DSP and 3D operations." 21:50:34 heh 21:50:38 fizzie, use 3dnow 21:50:39 They even mention complex numbers. 21:50:40 just because 21:50:42 "MOVDDUP, MOVSHDUP, MOVSLDUP - These are also used for complex numbers, and can be helpful for wave calculation like sound." 21:51:28 I don't think 3DNow! (let's at least have the name right) even does double-precision. 21:51:32 MOVSHDUP <-- Move Shadup? 21:51:38 as in shut uå 21:51:39 up* 21:51:48 "Move Single-Precision High and Duplicate". 21:51:59 I prefer move and shut up :P 21:52:12 prevents any MCE for 5 clock cycles ;P 21:52:40 fizzie, it seems like such a stupid thing to leave out... 21:52:41 These at least have semi-pronounceable mnemonics; the packed-integer-data ops are sometimes worse. PUNPCKLQDQ? 21:53:08 Packed Unpack Low Quad Double Quad? 21:53:52 "Unpack and Iterleave Low Quadwords" is what the title says, but... 21:54:33 hahah 21:54:36 s/Iter/Inter/ 21:54:55 anyway SSE3 is a good baseline, unless you aim to support very old system 21:54:59 in which case you want SSE 21:55:05 Phantom_Hoover, still a pure C fallback is best 21:55:07 PUNPCKLQDQ: pronounced pun-pucky-lucky-ducky. 21:55:15 in case of you run on a pentium or such 21:55:18 Phantom_Hoover, ^ 21:55:22 or a non-x86 system 21:55:36 I don't think this was for anything serious+ 21:56:07 Vorpal, why? 21:57:27 They instructions keep on getting more and more specialized, the larger numbers you put after SSE. 21:57:57 SSE4.1: "MPSADBW: Compute eight offset sums of absolute differences (i.e. |x0-y0|+|x1-y1|+|x2-y2|+|x3-y3|, |x0-y1|+|x1-y2|+|x2-y3|+|x3-y4|, ...); this operation is extremely important for modern HDTV codecs, and (see [5]) allows an 8x8 block difference to be computed in fewer than seven cycles." 21:58:19 They did add some dot products in, though. 21:58:24 fizzie, so they have such pointless things as that, yet not even cmult? 21:58:25 -!- fungot has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:58:25 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:58:25 -!- yiyus__ has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:58:25 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 21:58:26 -!- FireFly has joined. 21:58:38 Phantom_Hoover, is this just some private software? 21:58:50 -!- yiyus has joined. 21:58:51 Phantom_Hoover, shame on you for not releasing it then. 21:58:51 Vorpal, it's no software at all. 21:58:53 -!- CakeProphet has joined. 21:59:07 Phantom_Hoover, what? are you taking up our time for something pointless that isn't esolangs 21:59:18 I just can't see why it's overlooked like this in favour of ridiculously specific instructions. 21:59:39 Phantom_Hoover: Also single-instruction CRC32. 22:00:30 fizzie, what is really needed is adding some 256 bit SIMD registers 22:00:35 unless they done that already 22:00:39 then go for 1024-bit 22:00:48 Vorpal, they're going to in the near future. 22:01:03 oh my 22:01:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Vector_Extensions 22:01:31 Yes, with the clever mnemonic YMMn; it's one more than X, after all. 22:01:51 "Further extensions to 512 or 1024 bits are expected in the future" 22:02:19 Wow, they can ignore the quaternions, octonions and the sedenions as well. 22:02:33 Yeah, ZMMn for the 512-bit registers, but what will they call the next set? 22:02:59 [MMn? 22:03:03 ÅMMn, if they follow the usual Finnish alphabet order. Wow, that'd be the awesome. 22:03:14 how does ipv6 autoconfig select ips 22:03:46 Hey, where did fungot go? 22:03:49 fizzie: Considering typical x86 naming conventions, RZMMn 22:04:11 Or ezmmn. 22:04:25 E-zimmin' 22:04:27 Wow, they can ignore the quaternions, octonions and the sedenions as well. <-- um aren't they like rarely used these days? 22:04:35 matrix stuff is what I would expect 22:04:36 Vorpal, true. 22:05:00 I suspect the sedenions have never been used for anything. 22:05:11 Vorpal: There's IPv6-ICMP router-advertisement messages which gives the network prefix, and the low 64 bits are usually built from the MAC address. 22:05:13 fizzie: Supra-ASCII opcode mnemonics WOULD be awesome. 22:05:58 Perhaps to make things more confusing, 新MMn. 22:06:10 And: liberation for sedenions NOW! 22:06:23 % fist 22:07:13 fizzie, aha, from mac 22:07:17 fizzie, well that explains it 22:07:25 fizzie, how comes we haven't yet run out of MACs btw 22:09:38 because they are buig 22:09:43 (2^48) 22:09:57 Vorpal, 6-byte vs. 4-byte. 22:10:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:13:44 -!- alise has joined. 22:15:00 Cat names. Go! 22:15:26 /bin/cat 22:15:35 Hilarious, but unpronounceable. 22:15:43 "slashbinslashcat" 22:15:59 I do not think that name will be effective for the cat. :P 22:16:30 Maybe I'll call one Felix 2: Electric Boogaloo and the other Shaggy Dog. 22:17:03 It's not full 48 bits, or free-form either; the first octet has two flag bits, and the entire first half is the manufacturer ID, leaving just 2^24 = 16M devices with any one ID. 22:17:32 fizzie: Brief context? 22:17:39 alise: mac addresses 22:17:56 1 Infinity Loop, Cupertino, CA. 22:18:00 You're welcome! 22:18:01 alise, Doctor Destructo! 22:18:06 *Infinite 22:18:14 fizzie: but two different manufacturers could issue machines with the same "ID" 22:18:21 and their addresses would be different 22:18:41 The world needs more supervillain cats! 22:19:02 Sure, but it still means each different manufacturer will eat 2^24 device IDs, even if they only make a few. (Okay, so you won't get an organization ID if you only make a few, but *still*...) 22:19:17 alise, speaking of cat, I implemented the (to my knowledge) first POSIX cat in an esolang. 22:19:27 alise, save for -u which can't be done in befunge 22:19:37 Vorpal: How utterly exciting. 22:19:44 I have always wanted to see that. 22:19:51 (Incidentally, 3Com already has 41 organizational identifiers.) 22:20:12 alise, I implemented it long before. 22:20:27 alise, it is also the first befunge program with a GPL header that I know of. And I did that only because it was a first. Otherwise I would have done BSD probably. 22:20:28 Yes, but you're not quite as exciting as AnMaster! 22:20:36 Vorpal is just in a state of denial. 22:20:39 Vorpal: Oh wow, I can barely contain how amazing this is. 22:20:43 alise, Phantom_Hoover's claim is not backed up by any evidence :P 22:20:46 just saying 22:20:47 Please have my fposix_babies. 22:20:58 oh yeah forgot you hate posix 22:21:01 Vorpal, I posted the damn interpreter and program online" 22:21:02 *shrug* 22:21:12 Phantom_Hoover, only after I did it 22:21:14 as far as I know 22:21:26 Vorpal, true, but I WROTE the program years ago. 22:21:36 Phantom_Hoover: link or gtfo 22:21:42 Phantom_Hoover, that is what you say, and it is a HQ9+ish language 22:21:53 as it is, it can only do cat 22:21:57 GreaseMonkey, http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Phantom_Hoover 22:22:15 But that's not the first implementation I wrote. 22:22:21 hmmkay 22:22:30 GreaseMonkey, as for mine: http://sprunge.us/UcYL 22:22:38 nope 22:22:40 Implementation of cat, not the language. 22:23:14 befunge-98, of course... 22:23:26 GreaseMonkey, well yes, I couldn't parse arguments or do file IO without that 22:23:37 GreaseMonkey, I don't know any other esolang which allows that 22:24:01 Vorpal: there's perl 22:24:02 GreaseMonkey, actually b98 + FILE would have been enough, but STRN makes thing less painful 22:24:06 Vorpal: Do you realise that your accomplishment is an utterly pointless waste of time; a trivial, uninteresting program that proves and demonstrates nothing written in a language already known to have decent support for this kind of stuff, such that your only accomplishment is arranging commands in a two-dimensional grid, which you have not even done, as it fails to even look aesthetically pleasing? Also, you misspelled "triple". 22:24:09 GreaseMonkey++ 22:24:11 Have a nice day. 22:24:35 alise, do I look like I care about your opinion 22:24:43 thanks for the comment correction however 22:24:50 alise -= 0.5\ 22:24:50 Vorpal: You did when you excitedly told me all about it. 22:24:53 alise, the words "pointless" and "waste of time" are not to be uttered on this channel. 22:24:58 s/\\/;/ 22:25:09 Phantom_Hoover: Look, look, I wrote cat in a language that's just like Befunge but it has an if loop instead of a while loop! 22:25:15 Phantom_Hoover++ 22:25:21 GreaseMonkey, agreed 22:25:30 There's a reason this channel is #esoteric, not #pointless. That reason is that esoteric things are pointless /and/ interesting. 22:25:44 alise woke up on wrong side of the bed (might be Swedish only idiom, not sure) 22:25:49 oh the* 22:25:51 it's an achievement 22:25:51 on* 22:26:00 alise woke up on wrong side of the bed (might be Swedish only idiom, not sure) <-- wow, we have that idiom too 22:26:03 alise: Befunge has while loops? 22:26:05 alise, so you don't find it interesting, who cares 22:26:12 ais523: Erm, I meant brainfuck. 22:26:14 sure, it has loops in general, but if and while aren't separate constructs 22:26:22 and in BF, that would be impressive 22:26:26 Vorpal: You seemed to care enough to bug me about it; the only point of this could be to generate a positive response from me 22:26:29 ais523, no, I wrote the pseudo code for it with goto 22:26:31 given that an if-version of BF would be impossible to loop in 22:26:34 Vorpal: that's cheating 22:26:35 that says a lot 22:26:42 ais523, how so? 22:26:43 So, you care about my opinion, as long as it coincides with yours, thus boosting your already overinflated sense of ego due to writing this program. 22:26:46 ais523, impossible to write POSIX cat in BF. 22:26:48 ais523, writing pseudo code first is not cheating 22:27:07 ais523, it was just a way to figure out the best way to do it in befunge 22:27:19 oh, I mean you can't add GOTO to BF and still call it the same lang 22:27:19 specifically the argument parsing 22:27:27 ais523, I talked about befunge 22:27:30 not braunfuck 22:27:30 Oh, alise is awake 22:27:33 brainfuck 22:27:37 Phantom_Hoover: really? without command-line args, you can cat everything, including NUL, if you have more than 8 bits and EOF=-1 22:27:46 Sgeo: I've always been awake. You know, the unit and all. 22:27:51 ais523, and yes you can add it to befunge. It is called SUBR 22:28:11 ais523, true. 22:28:58 Wait, I just looked at the source now. This so-called POSIX-compliant cat is only "mostly POSIX-conforming". What? 22:29:22 What's the point of "mostly" conforming to a standard? 22:29:30 cpressey, because of -u 22:29:37 cpressey, read list at end of source 22:29:43 cpressey, those are limitations of befunge-98 22:29:47 nothing I can do about them 22:29:51 Vorpal, so? You can configure the terminal. 22:29:56 Phantom_Hoover, what? 22:29:58 Vorpal: So your cat *isn't* POSIX compliant. 22:30:05 Yay! You wrote a program whose only point is to confirm to an authorityless standard, and didn't even manage to do that. 22:30:06 -!- leBMD has joined. 22:30:07 cpressey, it is as far as it is possible 22:30:23 Greetings, programmers of the esoteric variety. 22:30:27 cpressey, and -u would depend on value returned by y 22:30:31 cpressey, for the flags 22:30:32 -!- wareya has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:30:44 cpressey, if you want the other value change implementation ;P 22:30:53 I could add a check that errors out of the buffering is wrong 22:30:55 Vorpal: There are probably hundreds of implementations of 'cat' in esolangs that are "as POSIX-compliant as possible" for the languages they're done in. 22:31:28 cpressey, then you can say this is the most posix compliant one 22:31:29 -!- wareya has joined. 22:32:01 Vorpal, I think you'll find mine is POSIX-complianter. 22:32:08 What language are you talking about? 22:32:15 Phantom_Hoover, yeah that you released after 22:32:17 leBMD, Befunge-98. 22:32:20 Phantom_Hoover, you are just being silly 22:32:20 oh, ok 22:32:23 * Sgeo finished depict 22:32:25 depict1 22:32:30 with some spoilers >.> 22:32:32 Vorpal, so? It's actually POSIX compliant, though. 22:32:33 cpressey, and the first one in befunge-98 that is as posix compliant as possible 22:32:39 POSIX-compliant cat in Brainfuck: ,[.,] 22:32:46 It's as compliant as possible, because Brainfuck can't read files. 22:32:47 alise, not true :P 22:33:01 Vorpal, in what sense? 22:33:04 I'm workign on a text adventure in it, and gosh it takes a bit to type out the parsing routine 22:33:12 leBMD, in what? 22:33:18 Befunge-98 22:33:36 leBMD, the mostly posix cat is at http://sprunge.us/UcYL 22:33:44 cpressey, btw not even gnu cat implements -u 22:33:50 I've got it to read N, n, S, s, E, e, W and w, but I can't quite figure out how to do strings. 22:33:54 no cat I found on any of my systems does it 22:34:02 and I mean string input, not output. 22:34:06 cpressey, and the argument parsing is of no practical significance 22:34:27 cpressey, since the null string is not a valid filename 22:34:44 cpressey, thus in practise it makes no difference 22:34:45 "-u 22:34:45 Write bytes from the input file to the standard output without delay as each is read. " 22:34:52 Phantom_Hoover, yes 1p says that 22:35:05 What does that even require? 22:35:07 Phantom_Hoover, but I checked GNU, FreeBSD and NetBSD cat's 22:35:09 PSOX could always help... 22:35:17 leBMD: The easy way is to just use STRN fingerprint functions. 22:35:19 Sgeo, not for this 22:35:20 Surely it doesn't require unbuffered IO in terminals? 22:35:33 STRN fingerprint? 22:35:44 I've been doing character input 22:35:47 Sgeo, it can't turn line buffered IO into unbuffered IO 22:36:11 I mean, cat -u file vs. cat file: what is the difference? 22:36:14 hm, maybe I don't know as much about 98 as I thought. 22:36:31 Phantom_Hoover, I think it is unbuffered on both stdin and stdout for -u 22:36:47 I could add a fingerprint which did it of course :P 22:37:16 leBMD, implemented a 98 interpreter yet? I found that is the best way to learn the language 22:37:21 Vorpal, so why doesn't GNU cat have it? 22:37:34 No, not yet. 22:37:35 leBMD: There are these fingerprints you can load with (; they define commands for uppercase letters. STRN has line-based string input and output. But it's completely possible to do without, of course, especially if you need that little input. 22:37:38 Phantom_Hoover, *shrug* 22:38:03 Phantom_Hoover, find me a modern cat which does. MAAAYBE solaris is my guess. Of course you could dig up an old one which did 22:38:26 Okay, I maight do that. 22:38:31 might* 22:38:34 leBMD, that is a lot of work however 22:38:45 Vorpal, in any case, on a fully POSIX-compliant system, my cat program is POSIX compliant. 22:38:49 leBMD, I wrote cfunge. Took me... over a year I think. 22:38:57 leBMD, with all the fingerprints I support 22:39:03 not continuous of course 22:39:04 leBMD: BTW, CCBI 2 is better. 22:39:05 for general directions, I've just been copying and subtracting UTF-32 numbers for the characters, and then doing a _ or | 22:39:09 (Someone's gotta evangelise.) 22:39:10 -!- sshc has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:39:20 I've been using ccbi 22:39:22 alise, no evangelising please :P 22:39:35 also I never claimed ccbi2 was bad 22:39:42 Vorpal: You're evangelising. 22:39:49 alise, no, I didn't 22:39:49 You're just being more subtle about it. 22:39:52 alise, read again 22:40:04 alise, I said implementing befunge98 was a great way to learn it 22:40:12 and that when I wrote mine, cfunge, it took x time 22:40:12 Yes, you are, you wanted leBMD to recognise your achievement in creating cfunge. 22:40:21 alise, you are paranoid 22:40:30 utterly so 22:40:39 --says AnMaster. 22:40:46 you see evangelists around every corner 22:40:47 You're both horrible people. Can we move on? 22:40:47 It's not paranoia. Even if I'm wrong it's definitely not paranoia. 22:40:53 alise, yeah since I'm paranoid, that says a LOT 22:40:53 -!- sshc has joined. 22:40:53 That isn't what paranoia is. 22:41:07 alise, sure it is, not the tinfoil variant, true 22:41:13 but paranoia for evangelists 22:41:22 Please look up "paranoia". Thanks. 22:41:44 sigh.... why are you so annoying today? 22:41:47 leBMD: It's impossible to learn *funge-98 fully, if you include extensions, because there's no limit to them. 22:42:00 ok. 22:42:01 stop trolling, and yes you are. Quite subtle 22:42:15 I've just been using plain ol' funge, without extensions. 22:42:42 cpressey, true. When using JSTR I needed to look up the argument order 22:42:44 Vorpal: If I called you paranoid, would you even understand what irony is? 22:42:54 It's an important first step on the road to recognising the irony in situations. 22:43:00 alise, those are not connected 22:43:08 alise, and I fully admit I'm paranoid 22:43:13 I never claimed anything else 22:43:16 ... 22:43:26 Interesting. So paranoia is a reason to dismiss me, but not a reason to dismiss you? 22:43:35 alise, Vorpal SHUT UP. 22:43:47 You know, arguments on the internet are like the special olympics. 22:43:49 I would, but, you know, it's kind of fun. 22:43:58 alise, STOP. 22:44:05 alise, if I call you paranoid it says a lot, since I'm paranoid as well. 22:44:09 leBMD, haha :D 22:44:12 This channel is not for you to amuse yourself by arguing. 22:44:16 Phantom_Hoover, and no it isn't fun 22:44:19 it is just annoying 22:44:21 Vorpal, that was at BOTH of you. 22:44:29 Vorpal, then STOP RESPONDING. 22:44:33 actually *puts alise on special list of client* 22:44:39 Vorpal: You haven't answered my question, only avoided it. 22:44:49 there, no more messages from alise 22:44:51 I wonder if he realises that I like him not responding to my messages. 22:45:01 Phantom_Hoover, yes do not feed the trolls and so on 22:45:05 Phantom_Hoover, not always that easy 22:45:13 alise, then WHY ARE YOU EXPLICITLY ADDRESSING HIM? 22:45:36 Phantom_Hoover, shut up, do not feed the troll ;P 22:45:48 CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL. 22:46:24 Phantom_Hoover: Because it's fun to eke out new pieces of hilarious stupidity from him. 22:46:34 They flow with ease if you know how. 22:46:55 alise, again, this channel is not for your amusement. 22:47:10 I wonder if it's possible to make a roguelike in funge, complete with proceedurally-generated map... 22:47:10 Fight with Vorpal in a PM if you want to, 22:47:17 leBMD, yes. 22:47:18 Phantom_Hoover: Yes, it's for SERIOUS BUSINESS. 22:47:36 leBMD: same with any TC language 22:47:46 Phantom_Hoover: But that's less fun, because you don't get the odd other person adding a sarcastic slight against AnMaster without him noticing. 22:47:46 well, true. 22:47:50 if you mean "would it be particularly difficult in Befunge", I don't think so 22:48:00 (Not that I'm naming names. Phantom_Hoover. leBMD. Uh, I guess I'm naming names now. fungot. EgoBot.) 22:48:03 leBMD, well, you'd probably have a few problems with curses, for the reasons Vorpal stated above. 22:48:07 I wonder how you would go about reprinting the map with each new movement. 22:48:18 cfunge rejects any program containing the sequences "fuck" or "shit" 22:48:24 this can be problematic 22:48:31 Okay, that was lame. 22:48:38 leBMD, well, you could always just reprint the map. 22:48:54 If the IO is fast enough, it could look pretty good. 22:48:57 but how would I go about displaying the difference in character position? 22:49:22 leBMD, you have the stuff to go on the screen in memory. 22:49:30 maybe I could have it check for @, and the if you say, hit "h" then it would locate @, replace it with . and print @ to the left. 22:49:32 You could also manually output widely-enough-supported cursor control codes. 22:49:47 When something changes, alter the buffer, then print it all to the terminal. 22:49:52 leBMD: presumably it would maintain the state internally 22:49:59 then handle displaying it separately 22:50:06 true. 22:50:47 maybe it would save the map to a file, and then display it with you in the spawn point, and then go on a sort of grid-system to figure out how to change the display. 22:50:55 Boy, this sounds like a lot of work. 22:50:56 Erm. 22:50:58 Why use a file? 22:51:02 leBMD, no. 22:51:03 Befunge has memory, you know. 22:51:12 Befunge is ideal for this, actually. 22:51:12 well yeah 22:51:27 Phantom_Hoover: Not *that* ideal... 22:51:31 Just demarcate a section of fungespace for the screen buffer, then print it 22:51:32 but, wouldn't it be a little rought workign with the map on the stack? 22:51:37 Phantom_Hoover: Well, perhaps. 22:51:44 leBMD: So put it at a position instead. 22:51:45 leBMD, fungespacefungespacefungespace 22:52:04 -!- derdon has quit (Read error: Operation timed out). 22:52:10 gah, I feel like a noob. Are you talking about printing the map onto the source? 22:52:28 leBMD, in Befunge, the code space is readable and writable. 22:52:35 I know. 22:52:50 I've just never made it self-alter before, so I don't know it's full potential. 22:52:56 So you can just have an 80x24 rectangle somewhere, and then write to that. 22:53:06 leBMD: look at the p/g instructions 22:53:13 ok 22:53:14 http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html 22:54:52 And this is where I'm more familiar with 93. When it says "relative to the storage offset" what does that mean? 22:54:57 You could even put the screen buffer so that a runtime display of fungespace would be the IO in itself. 22:55:29 leBMD: You can just ignore that part to start. 22:55:37 ok. 22:55:44 leBMD: The idea is that p and g work like they do in 93. 22:55:49 ok. 22:56:14 Fight with Vorpal in a PM if you want to, <-- nah, I ignored all, not just channel 22:56:29 leBMD, well, you'd probably have a few problems with curses, for the reasons Vorpal stated above. <-- NCRS? 22:56:52 leBMD, using the NCRS fingerprint you have basic curses 22:56:53 National Corvette Restorers Society 22:57:05 Phantom_Hoover, NCURses 22:57:07 in fact 22:57:09 a fingerprint 22:57:21 pretty sure ccbi supports it too 22:57:36 Guess the language: (![]+[])[+[]]+([][![]]+[])[+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(!![]+[])[+!![]]+(!![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(+!![]/+[]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]] 22:57:43 If it's NCRS, how can it be "NCURses"? 22:57:57 fizzie, err right 22:58:05 fizzie, NCuRSes 22:58:06 or 22:58:07 Because Befunge-110 introduces NCUR, the new, revised edition of NCRS! 22:58:12 NCuRseS 22:58:20 Brought to you by CCBI Enterprises. 22:58:21 fizzie, those both works 22:58:26 Erm. 22:58:28 cfunge Enterprises. 22:58:29 XD 22:58:36 FireFly: Ooh! Um... Ada? 22:58:38 FireFly, underload? 22:58:45 wait no 22:58:47 not underload 22:58:55 Nope 22:59:02 Heh: Current estimated "IPv4 doomsday": 31st May 2011 (285 days from now). 22:59:02 >> it's been too long since I used vim. 22:59:02 JavaScript! 22:59:06 FireFly, what? 22:59:09 Yup 22:59:11 FireFly: (+![]) 22:59:15 That is the name of the language. 22:59:17 ~224635k addresses left. 22:59:20 FireFly: heh 22:59:23 js> (![]+[])[+[]]+([][![]]+[])[+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(!![]+[])[+!![]]+(!![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]]+(![]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]]+(+!![]/+[]+[])[+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]+!+[]] 22:59:23 firefly 22:59:31 Ilari: Those sure are being used up quickly. 22:59:36 FireFly, how does that work 22:59:57 because ![] = false 22:59:58 ~224635k addresses left. <-- that *sounds* like a lot 22:59:59 + coerces to number 23:00:03 It uses implicit casting from empty arrays to booleans, and then from booleans to integers (by adding booleans together) 23:00:04 false = 0 23:00:08 and then index strings like "undefined" and "false" 23:00:11 [] = as boolean = true = as number = 1 23:00:14 so ![] + [] = 1 23:00:14 indexes* 23:00:28 ![]+[] is the string "false" 23:00:31 Oh. 23:00:32 Hm. 23:00:33 Right. 23:00:36 haha 23:00:39 FireFly: Very impressive. 23:00:41 (![]+[])[+[]] is "f" 23:00:51 FireFly, 1-based index? 23:00:58 Nope, zero-based 23:01:00 No, +[] = 0, presumably. 23:01:01 +[] is 0 23:01:03 plus false 23:01:03 * Sgeo WTFs at Javascript 23:01:04 ah 23:01:21 It has to be an esolang, right? 23:01:22 This is why I hated it. 23:01:32 Not used in the real world? 23:01:35 FireFly, so what about letters not in "undefined", "false" or "true" 23:01:40 JavaScript's actually a pretty nice language 23:01:41 Sgeo, consider 1[argv] in C. 23:01:41 JavaScript has some niceness; it's quite Schemey. 23:01:44 FireFly, like v 23:01:48 We also have "Infinity" 23:01:48 It's perfectly legal. 23:01:49 But the coercion rules are insanity. 23:01:54 FireFly, what about the letter v 23:01:55 I think in pretty much any nice language, you're going to get ridiculounessness like that too 23:01:57 And you can do "[Object object]" if you cheat and use {} 23:02:12 Can't think of a way to get v, I think 23:02:13 Name some ridiculousness in Scheme or Smalltalk 23:02:13 That date is presumably when IANA runs down to 5 unassigned /8s and proceeds to assign one of them to each of the five RIRs. 23:02:21 FireFly, aww, can't spell my nick then 23:02:29 FireFly, can't you just add the char code? 23:02:31 or something 23:02:33 from the bools 23:02:34 Sgeo: the interaction of CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION and UNWIND-PROTECT. 23:02:34 And then IANA is out of unassigned address blocks. 23:02:40 Well, you'd have to use String.fromCharCode then 23:02:42 unwind-protect? 23:02:47 And that wouldn't look as nice :P 23:02:56 Sgeo: If you ask that question, you're not competent enough in Scheme to implicitly claim its perfection. :p 23:02:56 FireFly, ah 23:02:58 FireFly, :/ 23:02:59 Ilari: assigning 1/8 was really a wake-up call for the world 23:03:03 but they just went back to sleep again 23:03:06 I think I can guess 23:03:15 Sgeo: You probably guess wrong. 23:03:17 Vorpal, there's probably plenty of strings one can use, that I haven't thought about 23:03:29 Sgeo: Also, "map" can either be safe to use with CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION, or tail recursive. 23:03:31 alise, something vaguely akin to try/catch, or Smalltalk's ensure? 23:03:35 Not both. 23:03:58 Sgeo: But actually, it can technically be both; it just can't only do one iteration through the list. 23:04:03 ais523, there is one isp in Sweden which provides native ipv6 according to SixXS. It is aimed at large company offices only 23:04:09 no way I could get it 23:04:10 * Sgeo blinks 23:04:13 SISC's developer refers to this as "Tail-recursive, resistant to call/cc interference, O(1*n); pick two." 23:04:27 SISC picks the first two because it's a correctness nazi. 23:04:43 ais523, it's sad 23:04:51 ais523, I have a sixxs tunnel of course 23:04:51 alise: couldn't you determine statically whether call/cc could interfere, or not? 23:04:55 using it for freenode atm 23:05:00 and optimise based on that 23:05:03 alise, something vaguely akin to try/catch, or Smalltalk's ensure? ;; "Vaguely"; but it's much more complicated. 23:05:18 Vorpal: IIRC, the person in charge of sixxs considers using an IPv6 tunnel for IRC to be unethical, or illegal, or something 23:05:23 nobody really understands why 23:05:28 ais523: Perhaps. It'd never be 100% effective -- EVAL -- and it'd still fail on one of them in the worst case. 23:05:32 ais523, sounds like whole-program optimisation would be useful there (wrt call/cc) 23:05:34 ais523: Static analysis? In Scheme? Surely you jest. 23:05:38 ais523: Besides, nobody uses the call/cc interaction, usually. 23:05:42 ais523, no he doesn't 23:05:47 As far as I know its use is confined almost entirely to test suites. 23:05:51 alise, what is the nature of the call/cc interaction? 23:05:57 cpressey: well, you can statically-analyse everything to some extent 23:06:03 Phantom_Hoover: complicated. 23:06:08 ais523: Yeah, I'm not totally serious. 23:06:10 ais523, he considers it for the sake of getting fancy rdns to be silly 23:06:10 Phantom_Hoover: read the spec; I don't know it off by heart because it's complicated. 23:06:11 Are there any Lisps with decent standard libraries? 23:06:19 Vorpal: ah, that makes more sense 23:06:25 Sgeo: arc :P 23:06:26 ais523: Sort of referring to my "oh no it's dynamically scoped" lament from earlier. 23:06:26 I don't want to have to do Scheme/PSOX 23:06:32 ais523, and one or two POPs limit it 23:06:33 (Yes, but you don't want to use them.) 23:06:53 alise, does it entail weirdness when you call/cc inside map? 23:07:02 Sorry; it's DYNAMIC-WIND in Scheme. 23:07:12 Phantom_Hoover: Not DYNAMIC-WIND 23:07:14 ais523, and host can't apply here, I have a cloak, and even without it, *@.se.sixxs.net is not very fancy 23:07:16 That's a separate issue. 23:07:27 where is a bit I cut out due to being paranoid :P 23:07:55 Vorpal's computers are so insecure that he refuses to even reveal his IP address. 23:08:02 who here uses vim to edit in befunge? 23:08:13 ais523, the faq on irc is at http://www.sixxs.net/faq/misc/?faq=irc 23:08:19 ais523, if you are interested, check it 23:08:20 leBMD: I think Deewiant, author of CCBI, uses vim. 23:08:24 ok. 23:08:29 ais523, go log read to find the url 23:08:37 Emacs picture-mode is nice for Befunge 23:08:40 Vorpal: I don't particularly care 23:08:42 leBMD, I recommend emacs with picture-mode, that way you can write in all cardinal directions 23:08:50 I'm trying to remember the :command that allows me to move my cursor freely 23:08:50 why do people seem to assume that everyone cares about all their links? 23:08:51 "(display "Map is call/cc safe, but probably not tail recursive or inefficient.")" 23:09:06 Surely s/in// 23:09:09 I tried M-x-picturemode, but it didn't let me write >. 23:09:10 ais523, well you were discussing it :P 23:09:18 !scheme (display "hi") 23:09:19 Phantom_Hoover: but probably (not tail recursive) or inefficient 23:09:20 what? 23:09:28 ais523: do you filter all messages containing links? 23:09:28 We don't have a Scheme interpreter here? 23:09:30 Pity. 23:09:32 !help 23:09:33 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 23:09:34 cpressey: But which one to pick? :P 23:09:39 cpressey: Clearly it should be OkloScheme. 23:09:39 cpressey, it MIGHT just be sluggish 23:09:44 like, I would put in ">" and it wouldn't put it on the file. 23:09:44 We don't, btw. 23:09:51 alise, ah. 23:09:54 -!- Gregor-W has joined. 23:09:56 alise: have you not made Ponzi Scheme yet? 23:09:57 OkloScheme? 23:10:05 leBMD: that seems weird 23:10:07 Is everyone having a nice, olboxy day today? 23:10:08 ais523: no, I'm not sure I even will 23:10:09 ais523: OMG. 23:10:13 are you sure you aren't using crazy keybindings? 23:10:13 !befunge98 http://sprunge.us/UcYL UcYL 23:10:16 I wonder if that work 23:10:17 It's not on Google; it doesn't exist. 23:10:17 * coppro needs PonziScheme 23:10:21 cpressey: Name is taken. 23:10:21 Q.E.D. 23:10:23 coppro: Name is taken. 23:10:23 iirc it does download urls 23:10:24 hm 23:10:25 ais523: That was an oerjan-worthy pun. 23:10:26 It's mine, MINE! 23:10:27 ALL MINE! 23:10:27 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 23:10:30 guess it saves it to different filename 23:10:31 cpressey: It's also my pun. 23:10:32 MINE! 23:10:35 cpressey: it's alise's pun, not mine 23:10:37 !help 23:10:37 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 23:10:43 !help languages 23:10:44 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 23:10:48 ais523, alise: OWNERSHIP OF PUN DULY NOTED 23:11:08 cpressey: It's a Knuth-style process; I thought of the name "Ponzi Scheme", then decided I had better write The Perfect Scheme and call it that. 23:11:41 alise: fair enough. But I need it, so you better deliver. 23:11:47 alise: Name Comes First. It's the Only Way. 23:11:48 cpressey, well since plt-scheme → racket... *shrug* 23:11:49 SixXS folks are also sometimes very bizarre; I have a friend who did some IPv6 userspace routing stuff as his master's thesis, and in the evaluation of that had a tunnel; for the crime of making a sixxs-compatible tunnel client he got his account and forum-discussions deleted. 23:12:00 coppro: Okay. First, you give me a lot of money. 23:12:04 See http://www.sixxs.info/ for sordid details. 23:12:05 fizzie, what 23:13:03 Vorpal's gods; they disapparate. 23:13:04 There were some other similar stories; can't locate them right now. 23:13:19 hm, I forgot. How do I change which direction I'm typign in in picture-mode? 23:13:37 fizzie, how strange 23:14:56 Typing* 23:15:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:16:40 nevermind. 23:19:45 Vorpal: In the interests of full disclosure, his "conflict" was mostly with one of the two SixXS founders; on the other hand, he did get a friendly and appropriate email conversation going on with the other founder; and I personally remember that one as an easygoing guy from the ipng.nl (SixXS predecessor) times, so... Still, bizarroids. 23:20:03 fizzie, yeah... 23:21:08 -!- leBMD has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:22:06 Here's another bit: http://www.habets.pp.se/sixxs.net-sucks.php 23:23:43 fizzie, that user is a bit whiny in the original email. Oh and with dynamic tunnels you can't lose points 23:24:19 And "kill the user account with a 'stop whining'" message is an appropriate response? 23:24:27 fizzie, no 23:24:59 fizzie, anyway I can't find any other tunnel in Sweden that provides a /64 or larger 23:25:05 so no good alternatives for me 23:25:11 Oh, there are no alternatives, that's true. 23:25:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 23:25:19 There's another hate-page at http://en.linuxreviews.org/SixXS -- of course there's huge bias in this sort of stuff, but still, it's a bit disconcerting that they have so many of 'em. 23:25:36 fizzie, freenet6? well I tried it, lag was horrible. Wrote that in sixxs application iirc 23:25:39 "politically correct". 23:25:45 Don't they mean incorrect? 23:26:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:28:14 fizzie, I wonder if my phone supports ipv6 btw... hm 23:28:23 well I know it gets ipv4 normally 23:28:29 Vorpal, actually, after some talking in ##javascript, there seems to be a way to get v 23:28:30 no way to check 23:28:35 FireFly, and what is that? 23:28:38 Though it's a bit long 23:28:48 The stock N900 kernel doesn't have IPv6 enabled, but of course you can stick in a new one. 23:28:51 Build the word "filter", index an array with it, and then the output would be: 23:28:56 function filter() { 23:28:56 [native code] 23:28:56 } 23:29:00 -!- leBMD has joined. 23:29:01 From there you can fetch v 23:29:08 that was odd. 23:29:08 Why in the world would anyone make a device that doesn't support IPv6? 23:29:11 FireFly, why filter, why not just f? 23:29:19 FireFly: <3 23:29:25 oh it won't be native code then 23:29:26 right 23:29:26 Vorpal, filter is a standard function in JS 23:29:34 it'd just be undefined 23:29:34 I mean, IPv4 has 2 years left, tops. 23:29:37 FireFly, so, can you spell my nick with it then? 23:29:48 Talk about ego! 23:30:03 pikhq, ... you are joking right? My phone is about 2 years old 23:30:06 and not state of the art 23:30:24 Vorpal: Yes, but IPv4 is moribund technology. 23:30:39 pikhq, did that stop anyone from not supporting it? 23:30:44 pikhq, look at the internet today 23:30:51 I don't think my router supports ipv6 23:30:51 " ()-INO[]abcdefijlnorstuvy{}" 23:30:54 Would be the alphabet 23:31:01 Vorpal: No, I mean: IPv4 will be *unusuable* in 2 years, tops. 23:31:06 FireFly no p :( 23:31:08 No p, it seems 23:31:16 pikhq, I know 23:31:32 pikhq, so yay lets make ipv4 and then sell another in 2 years 23:31:41 pikhq, there is a reason for ipv4-only 23:32:04 pikhq, do you have native ipv6 yet? 23:32:05 I don't 23:32:40 Vorpal: No, because ISPs are fucking idiots who seem to fail to realise that *their service will break* unless they do a complete switch to IPv6 starting two years ago. 23:33:08 pikhq, yes.... 23:33:13 pikhq, it's all so tragic 23:33:25 pikhq, what will happen I wonder 23:33:30 everything will obviously break yes 23:33:35 but then what 23:33:43 ok, so right now I'm putting a roguelike on the table. Do you guys have any suggestions for good beginner *funge-98 practice? 23:33:50 pikhq, I believe we will have some interesting times ahead 23:34:02 We will start seeing hosts that cannot be accessed on IPv4. Starting not long after the IPv4 IANA allocations are finished. 23:34:05 pikhq, I'm sure people will sue about this in US 23:34:11 it is only to be expected 23:34:30 leBMD: Practice for a roguelike? How about Sokoban? 23:34:48 cpressey, ... hm? 23:35:00 As it is, yeah, it will be a rough transition. 23:35:02 cpressey, oh, not as practise for the rouge like 23:35:11 but in befunge98 coding 23:35:21 Because by the time IPv4 allocations become impossible, we won't be on IPv6. 23:35:37 *sigh* 23:35:54 pikhq, my old OS9 box only does ipv4 23:36:01 oh well, will still work on LAN 23:36:12 and that is all it really needs 23:36:25 Vorpal: More that if you implement Sokoban, you've done a lot of the groundwork for writing a (presumably more complex) roguelike. Wasn't totally certain if that was what leBMD was asking. 23:36:42 cpressey, ah 23:37:12 cpressey, and also you would have the sokoban levels from nethack within easy reach 23:37:21 cpressey, easy in a modular language like befunge ;) 23:37:21 how about something slightly easier than sokoban. I'm still trying to wrap my head around getting something on the screen to "move". 23:37:37 leBMD, use the NCRS fingerprint 23:37:46 though that is an idea for future things. 23:37:49 leBMD, then gotoxy thingy to overwrite old thing with space 23:37:53 and write the new one elsewhere 23:37:56 leBMD: robotfindskitten? :) 23:37:58 leBMD, that is how you move something 23:38:32 I'll see about his fingerprint, though I've never used fingerprints before. Is there a list of commands for it? 23:38:58 Ok... X server limited to 100GB VM space... 23:39:41 Ilari, whaaat 23:39:44 Ilari, 100 GB? 23:40:12 leBMD, hm let me locate NCRS docs 23:40:21 that would be nice. 23:40:34 right now I'm checking the specs to see how to load a fingerprint. 23:40:45 leBMD, it used to be at http://www.imaginaryrobots.net/projects/funge/myexts.txt 23:41:06 pikhq: Hey, do you know if Quod Libet has a boost-volume plugin? 23:41:15 alise: No, I don't know. 23:41:30 leBMD, not in web archive 23:41:43 ok. 23:42:09 Normal process VM size limit (set by processor) is either 128TiB or 256TiB... 23:42:12 pikhq: Darn. 23:42:35 ah, there we go 23:42:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:43:08 leBMD, found a local copy 23:43:23 leBMD, this defines JSTR SGNL and NCRS http://sprunge.us/AQBP 23:43:30 leBMD, don't know who implements SGNL 23:43:31 -!- zeotrope has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:44:18 Vorpal: The 100GB limit is to prevent X server from using too much VM space... 23:44:34 Ilari, yes... but 100 GB is insanely large 23:44:38 woah, I just saw a picture of a program made using TURT, and I had no idea that you could have graphic output! 23:44:43 Vorpal: This machine has only 56GB total RAM+Swap available. 23:44:51 Ilari, wow, I want that 23:44:55 Ilari, how much of it is RAM? 23:44:58 8. 23:45:05 Ilari, you have that much SWAP!? 23:45:06 why 23:45:08 Ilari: Upgraded, huh? 23:45:28 leBMD, if it was the TURT quine, it is buggy 23:45:49 but it does graphics! 23:45:58 leBMD, it assumes you do not implement that lowering and raising the pen leaves a dot 23:46:17 Here I was thinking that most all esoteric languages only did terminal. 23:46:23 leBMD, cfunge, efunge and ccbi1 outputs TURT to .svg, no idea what ccbi2 does 23:46:31 k 23:46:31 alise: A while ago... 23:46:32 leBMD, there are many, piet for example 23:46:42 leBMD, that uses an image as input 23:46:50 leBMD, there are some which do image output too 23:46:56 isn't there a 3D one too 23:47:27 I know that piet does INPUT of images, I made a forum for it. :P 23:47:43 I just didn't know that there was a language which allowed for output. 23:48:35 alise: There are messages to this channel referring to this machine already in April... 23:49:28 Ilari: Well, you don't talk much. 23:49:38 Ilari: Bit of a major upgrade from your previous box, though. :P 23:50:12 I got one with 8GB ram because RAM will become bottleneck first and I don't want to upgrade again very soon... 23:51:07 What CPU? 23:51:21 -!- nooga has joined. 23:51:31 model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 860 @ 2.80GHz 23:53:07 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 23:54:18 -!- tombom has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:55:11 -!- Flonk_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:55:42 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:55:54 Ilari: Nice. 23:56:02 -!- Flonk has joined. 23:56:14 I ought to get around to upgrading my setup, too. 23:56:19 2x1TB HDDs. 23:56:22 I know what to get, at least, since I've made component lists for others. 23:56:26 Ilari: No SSD? 23:56:31 Nope. :-/ 23:58:53 when a fingerprint needs conditions such as cursor position, it takes the arguments off the stack, right?