00:03:41 ...something's wrong here. 00:03:57 "SRCN"4(1I1NSR)&@ 00:04:04 I'm not sure what I did wrong, but I did it. 00:06:57 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:08:46 AP is passing artist's conceptions of black holes off as pictures taken from a telescope. Yay for journalistic integrity! 00:09:29 I was all like, "holy shit we actually have a PICTURE of one, maybe I'll start believing that they exist now", and then I googled, and was all like, "oh. no." 00:10:18 You know, I'm pretty sure they exist. 00:10:42 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 00:10:54 alise: As you may have guessed, I'm not. 00:11:18 I hear (of course, I'm no physicist) there's pretty compelling evidence. 00:11:26 Astronomers have identified numerous stellar black hole candidates, and have also found evidence of supermassive black holes at the center of galaxies. In 1998, astronomers found compelling evidence that a supermassive black hole of more than 2 million solar masses is located near the Sagittarius A* region in the center of the Milky Way galaxy, and more recent results using additional data find evidence that the supermassive black hole is more than 4 milli 00:11:26 on solar masses. 00:11:27 --WP 00:11:59 I'm glad they were compelled. 00:12:12 So, do you guys know what I did wrong? 00:12:20 do you have any reason to contradict the vast majority of physicists, cpressey? 00:12:27 leBMD: Nope, but that's because I don't know the problem. 00:12:33 "SRCN"4(1I1NSR)&@ 00:12:42 when I open it in ccbi, it just kind of freezes. 00:13:08 alise: I'm not contradicting them. I have no evidence that they *don't* exist. But I find their evidence pretty slim. 00:13:23 "Gravitational lensing," for instance... 00:13:39 Well, there are numerious objects that either have to be black holes, or something even *more* exotic. 00:13:40 do I need parentheses in my commands that require arguments? 00:13:59 Gravitational lensing asks me to believe that there are lots of occurrences in the heavens of a star *exactly behind* a black hole, from our point of view. 00:14:36 Yet, do we have any examples of a black hole sitting in front of, say, a nebula, where it would be easy to spot, even *visually*? 00:15:51 Ordinary gravitational lensing involves galaxies or entiere galaxy groups performing the lensing. I think the name when black hole performs the lensing is microlensing. 00:16:57 Ilari: I wasn't aware of that terminology. But OK. 00:18:30 cpressey: You will make Stephen Hawking sad if you don't think black holes exist. 00:18:32 He's disabled. 00:18:35 Do you have any idea how offensive that would be? 00:18:52 lol 00:19:48 I think most serious GR replacement theories do have black holes... 00:19:49 alise: What can I say? I'm just a sadistic bastard that way. 00:20:21 Of course, one can't tell what happens when one takes quantum gravitation into account... 00:20:39 * Sgeo goes to learn more about Falcon programming language 00:21:06 Oh no 00:21:20 cpressey: Yeah, you actually turned Sgeo /on/ to Falcon. 00:21:25 Congratu-fuckin'-lations. 00:21:25 Arrrgh 00:21:49 The designer is a native of Bologna, and the language is total bologna. Coincidence? I think not. 00:22:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_(programming_language) Wow. This should either not exist or be a tenth of its length. 00:22:22 bologna as in BS? 00:22:27 Ilari: Yes. :-) 00:22:39 Does the stuff on functional programming have to be all the theory first? 00:22:49 loool 00:23:31 What if I said that Falcon is the NetHack of programming languages? 00:23:41 It has everything including the kitchen sink 00:23:55 Issue: NetHack is fun and amusing, Falcon isn't. 00:24:06 Rather, NetHack is fun and amusing apart from as mockery. 00:24:10 (Note: In programming languages, more syntax features is worse) 00:24:20 (in general) 00:24:22 cpressey: Do you "believe" in dark energy/matter? 00:24:59 "we present some novel nomenclature to identify functional programming entities" 00:25:08 Um, I'm afraid reading further may screw up my brain 00:25:25 alise: Not sure how to answer that. I guess "no". I believe in unaccounted-for observations. 00:26:01 Dark matter is apparently real. But I don't think it has been established wheither dark energy is real or represents inaccuracy of GR... 00:26:07 cpressey: Well, that's not a reassuring answer, since what I gather from cosmologists is that dark * actually has very very good evidence (possibly better than black holes?). 00:26:12 Looking at unaccounted-for observations and saying, "Gee, there must be a whole lot more matter out there that we can't see, let's call it 'dark matter'" -- 00:26:20 Ilari: Let's go with matter. 00:26:23 I forgot which it was. 00:26:29 cpressey: That isn't what happened, though. 00:26:35 cpressey: That's just how idiots popularised it. 00:27:03 alise: So where is it and what is it? 00:27:12 cpressey: Space. Dark matter. 00:27:17 Wow, I don't even know what I'm doing anymore. XD 00:27:21 cpressey: What is a quark? 00:27:32 Incidentally, I've also been watching Stargate Infinity 00:27:33 alise: Why is it called matter? 00:27:36 cpressey: What is a quark? 00:27:51 alise: A quark is a building block of matter. Is dark matter made of quarks? 00:28:03 alise: Does it behave like matter? 00:28:19 Apparently it is not made of quarks. 00:28:22 In short, why classify it with matter? 00:28:27 cpressey: You know, I don't actually know anything about it; people who do know much more about it than me says it most very likely exists, and I don't think I consider mainstream cosmology quackery. 00:28:29 Does it have momentum? 00:28:33 It has mass and inertia. 00:28:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter 00:28:40 Ilari: that's something. 00:28:46 Here is my generalised answer to your question. 00:28:56 And also gravitational mass. 00:28:58 cpressey: The way you're talking is the way ultrafinitists talk. :) 00:29:06 "Where's infinity? What is it? How can you have an infinitely big set?" 00:29:20 "Strong gravitational lensing as observed by the Hubble Space Telescope in Abell 1689 indicates the presence of dark matter—enlarge the image to see the lensing arcs." 00:29:30 Does that class as evidence, cpressey? 00:29:44 " It would be more accurate to say that arrays know what a Table instance is, and are kind with them, rather than seeing the Table class as special ." 00:29:47 * Sgeo bliks 00:29:47 "Dark matter is crucial to the Big Bang model of cosmology [...]" 00:29:49 *blinks 00:30:12 So, Tables are a bit magical. Can I do this magic to make my own SgTable class, or is it just More Magic hidden somewhere out of sight? 00:30:19 I like it when I know how the magic works 00:30:21 If there is supersymmetry, the lightest supersymmetric particle is good candidate for dark matter. 00:31:24 hey cpressey, when dealing with fingerprints, why is there always a "4" after the fingerprint name? 00:31:40 leBMD: length of fingerprint name 00:31:43 "ABCD"4 00:31:44 * Sgeo WTFs at Pages 00:31:47 "LULZR"5 00:31:50 oh, ok 00:31:52 4 is used because of 32-bit 00:32:15 * Sgeo considers implementing Tables in Smalltalk for s**ts and giggles 00:32:39 Apparently dark matter only reacts to gravitational and weak forces. Would certainly explain why its "dark". 00:32:40 soots 00:32:42 soots and giggles. 00:32:46 Sgeo: stop self-censoring. 00:33:20 I want to ***k with someone 00:33:47 So then, when you call a command from a fingerprint, like "D for Destroy" or whatever, all you do is put the capital letter there, right? 00:34:01 alise: It's some evidence. Not what I'd call conclusive. 00:34:23 Great minds: http://nedroid.com/2010/05/that-explains-everything/ http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1777 00:34:36 * pikhq sucks at driving a stick shift 00:35:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:35:59 Regarding dark energy: I saw some paper that IIRC fitted some cosmological curve (that would involve dark energy in GR) with no parameters. Didn't chekck if the math is good... 00:36:28 So then, if a command needed an argument like "D(m-- ) Destroy if m==1, destroy mode off if m!=1" how would I go about that? Would I put the arguments into the stack? 00:36:37 (it does have parameters, but those are needed to fit local laws of physics, leaving no global parameters). 00:36:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physics_of_Star_Trek ;; lol 00:37:20 hm should I run /exec -o head --bytes 400 /dev/urandom | tr -d '\n\r' 00:37:26 Yes. 00:37:28 it might be interesting to see who complains 00:37:33 H?Y)BURc#c:MVkoiٴYE]:vK0A[n>.`VBOӡL.ts/]Iuسroyadmf~/'] 00:37:40 hopefully that messes up some terminal :P 00:37:54 My browser kerploded. 00:37:54 Loads of unknown characters... 00:38:33 Vorpal has successfully levelled down by successfully decreasing his experience points by using his "Retardedness" power, which exercised his "regressive, childlike state of mind" attribute! 00:38:34 My terminal shows question marks. 00:38:38 TADA! 00:39:15 And my hands smell like gasoline. 00:39:35 My terminal shows question marks, my hands smell like gasoline, and I'm ready to KICK SOME ASS. 00:39:59 Note to self: fill your damned gas tank up before it shows up as "empty". The gauge LIES! 00:40:39 ok, so now I've got it displaying something, but it fills up the screen. 00:40:56 Strangely, Pidgin did not crash at that. 00:41:15 lets give it another go! 00:41:17 9N[/מO +FZ,[V,% 00:41:21 ah quite short 00:42:01 that hardly counts does it? ;P 00:42:03 YT>s:j뮮@ꡂϻ$obKK+!‘4cD}ݬ|PW3"Y}f'[M^LD;dg*Q2VeߍEmjE7a__K+yi䏟AE.qڬ$Tܙb3ԭb+IRtrBu+}Y9uhح]JA@Mv'lpua&GOIZ(_гJ]D?:`+%tWnC~txmHR;un37и:ߔ-RU$98/=ɻ]ݫŒےbqPRkF)M8kʸ DѺ[ 00:42:05 okayt I'll stop 00:42:12 still, worth doingit 00:42:14 doing it* 00:42:20 just for the reactions 00:42:36 hopefully the log will be octet-stream now too 00:42:43 So the string that c_str() returns does not need to be freed manually, right? 00:42:57 * Warrigal deletes that line. 00:44:16 Warrigal, which line? 00:44:30 -!- Flonk has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:45:40 -!- leBMD has quit (Quit: gtg). 00:45:43 -!- Flonk has joined. 00:45:52 -!- Flonk has quit (Client Quit). 00:46:08 Vorpal: the line freeing the string that c_str() returns. 00:46:14 alise: I'm not planning to obnoxiously promote my crackpot skeptic ideas in here. I will say, however, that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GalacticRotation2.svg does not exactly scream "Inverse square law" to me. 00:46:22 Warrigal, ah 00:46:44 And on that note -- good evening, all. 00:46:50 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 00:47:03 dark matter? *shrug* 00:53:00 Warrigal: c_str? 00:53:41 alise: yes, the method of a C++ string that converts it into a C char pointer. 00:54:01 night 00:55:17 Said C string should not be modified, and is not guaranteed to exist after modification of the C++ string object. 00:55:46 Warrigal: Freeing the result of c_str will result in undefined behavior down the line; don't do it. 00:56:42 Luckily, freeing it appears to be a type error. 00:57:02 Well, yes; C++ doesn't do implicit casts to/from void*. 00:57:17 In this case, between char * and const char *. 00:57:41 ... void free(void*), not void free(char*). 00:59:05 Huh. Neptune has orbited once since its discovery. 00:59:31 Oh, true. 00:59:44 * Warrigal shrugs. 01:07:12 Why would you deliberately use C++? 01:08:55 pikhq: Pluto has orbited 73.99999 times 01:09:00 *Complete and utter fabrication. 01:11:02 Who cares about Pluto. 01:11:05 Not even a friggin' planet. 01:11:11 PLUTO IS MADE OF ROBOTS 01:11:14 ALL ROBOTS ROBOTS ROBOTS 01:11:18 Dwarf robots. 01:11:40 The new NetHack race! 01:19:39 Sgeo: Do people who aren't you or oerjan like Triangle and Robert? 01:20:08 There's a forum... 01:20:17 Truly proof that anyone can write a comic! 01:20:32 Mostly spam these days, but go back a bit 01:20:32 http://voy.com/50101/ 01:20:46 You don't technically need any art then really, do you? 01:20:51 Little placeholder names would suffice for everything. 01:21:11 alise, the poor art is a plotpoint 01:21:46 WHY TBALE 01:21:50 WHY ARE YOU COLLAPSED 01:21:51 *TABLE 01:22:04 Hmm? 01:22:13 my table has collapsed 01:22:19 thusly it is resting on me and not stable in and of itself 01:22:20 this is bad 01:45:00 Wow, a rule that comex wrote is horribly broken 01:51:24 Or, I could be a complete idiot, which I am 01:52:28 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo|Shamed. 01:53:52 * alise puts the Dunce Cap on Sgeo|Shamed. 01:55:06 Well, at least I'm safe from mind-flayers 01:55:59 No you're not. 01:56:09 Mind flayers are also casters. 01:56:13 Nobody is safe from casters. 01:56:27 #esoteric: "We will out-pedant your NetHack jokes." 01:56:27 they don't have summon nasties, do they? 01:57:10 alise: Oh, *Nethack* jokes. 01:57:16 I was going with D&D. 01:57:33 That is quite possible, but I have Sgeo|Shamed mentally down as more of a NetHack guy than anything else. 01:57:41 Casters are scary as fucking hell in D&D, due to being the only effective classes from about level 5 up. 01:57:42 (Discounting the things that don't even count as games.) 01:57:51 :P 01:58:06 (well, rather, they're the only effective classes *because* they're scary as hell) 01:58:07 I'm more of a Mutation person 01:58:15 Sgeo|Shamed: Which were you referencing? 01:58:16 (Which _does_ count as a game) 01:58:20 alise, NetHack 01:58:25 I know little about D&D 01:58:27 See! I was right. Ha. 01:58:51 Sgeo|Shamed: Mechanically, D&D and Nethack are related. So, you know something about D&D. 01:59:17 I also read OOTS, so I know a bit about D&D from there 01:59:28 pikhq: *NetHack 01:59:31 <3 OOtS 01:59:35 alise: Right. 01:59:43 SPELLING PEDANTRY BEATS EVERY OTHER FORM OF PEDANTRY 02:00:07 *Spelling *pedantry *beats *every *other *form *of *pedantry *. 02:00:40 isn't that grammar? 02:01:07 no 02:01:09 that's orthography 02:01:22 TYPE OF PEDANTRY PEDANTRY, BITCHES! 02:01:56 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:14:48 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:18:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 02:27:44 Shigeru Miyamoto: There's something I've learned from making this new Mario title multiplayer. 02:27:44 Satoru Iwata: And what's that? 02:27:44 Shigeru Miyamoto: I realized that, fundamentally, Mario is a game where if you fail and lose a turn, you'll be sent straight back to the start. 02:29:23 -!- cal153 has joined. 02:37:34 -!- MizardX has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:00:40 -!- augur has joined. 03:02:15 Bye. 03:02:17 -!- alise has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:02:27 g'day folks 03:02:30 g'night folks 03:05:38 -!- Gregor-P has joined. 03:09:33 -!- Sgeo|Shamed has changed nick to Sgeo|ShamedAgain. 04:04:59 -!- zzo38 has joined. 04:05:22 And how do I get DVI to print, I keep getting METAFONT error? 04:06:40 -!- Gregor-P has quit (Quit: Bye). 04:28:10 Do I need a laser printer for DVI? 05:10:15 I would imagine not 05:14:20 Then why do I get METAFONT error? 05:21:28 Do you have schematic diagrams for computers based on INTERCAL? 05:33:07 -!- wareya_ has joined. 05:35:50 -!- wareya has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:38:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:42:06 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 05:45:01 Did you know there is a Japanese book describing esolangs, and that even AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! is included? 05:57:05 -!- Mathnerd314 has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.8/20100722155716]). 06:05:13 zzo38: Awesome. 06:22:18 zzo38 : sauce 06:26:53 An interpreter written in Ruby might exist. 06:26:58 But I am not sure. 06:28:12 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:40:10 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 07:02:25 -!- MizardX has joined. 07:02:54 How do I find the information and implementation for: ETHEL, Okapi, Whothm 07:07:30 -!- Wamanuz has joined. 07:08:19 zzo38 : Do you have a link to that book? 07:08:35 Slereah: No 07:09:02 But look on Wikipedia under [[Unlambda]] I think you can find a preview of a few pages 07:21:31 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:43:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:52:41 If you add Hackiki into esolangs, I have a few suggestions. One is to add OpenID support to MediaWiki so that the accounts can be linked. Another is to provide read-only access between both systems (so that a MediaWiki page can transclude a Hackiki file, and a Hackiki program can read a MediaWiki page). Third is to put Enhanced CWEB, and TeX, and modify cwebmac.tex (and cweave.w if needed) to weave to HTML 07:52:58 (And that if you download the file, you can then run it locally and weave to TeX and DVI or PDF, as well, just like normal way) 07:54:59 Someone can also put in a MediaWiki parser, so that the MediaWiki files are readable in Hackiki! 07:56:45 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: These days, CthulhuIRCd is the only standard compliant one with server scripts and that has built-in support for the SUMMON command.). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:01:09 -!- cheater209 has joined. 08:04:36 -!- cheater109 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:29:44 -!- tombom has joined. 08:59:43 -!- FireFly has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:02:32 -!- sftp has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:32 -!- ineiros_ has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:32 -!- olsner has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (*.net *.split). 09:02:32 -!- Gregor-W has quit (*.net 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Entering 2006 in style.). 13:01:30 -!- tombom has joined. 13:06:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:37:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:01:31 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:01:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:11:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 14:35:04 -!- augur has joined. 14:40:17 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:40:22 -!- augur has joined. 14:45:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:04:50 -!- cpressey has joined. 15:36:58 -!- augur has joined. 15:38:18 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:40:17 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:55:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:55:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left (?). 15:56:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 15:59:31 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:02:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:04:52 -!- Gregor-W has quit (Quit: Page closed). 16:23:57 okay, I have found yet another reason to <3 Amazon 16:24:09 coppro, what is it? 16:25:10 they have a download manager for direct music purchases, and they distribute Linux binaries 16:27:49 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:28:01 there are a few issues with the way they do it, but they get points 16:28:36 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 16:29:16 -!- augur has joined. 16:32:53 -!- cpressey has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 16:35:26 also apparently it uses boost 16:35:27 even better 16:36:41 o hai 17:04:12 -!- Flonk_ has joined. 17:07:04 -!- Flonk has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:07:10 -!- Flonk_ has changed nick to Flonk. 17:28:11 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:45:16 Sgeo|ShamedAgain, why the nick? 17:51:11 -!- cal153 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:08:50 Dangit, acidentally cleared the chatlog 18:09:04 I thought something stupid related to Agora. 18:09:10 And msg'd other people. 18:09:22 Then, similar for something else in Agora 18:13:21 -!- cal153 has joined. 18:23:55 -!- derdon has joined. 18:47:03 -!- augur has joined. 18:50:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:54:43 -!- wareya_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:56:21 -!- wareya has joined. 19:09:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:15:21 Sgeo|ShamedAgain, do you really like Falcon? 19:15:54 I have yet to have an opinion, other than to note that there's nothing too exciting about it, and it seems to have a bit of an excess of syntax 19:16:58 Fucking router. Hand out a damned DHCP lease. 19:17:35 http://sexyalevels.tumblr.com/ 19:17:39 Blew my mind. 19:29:53 -!- Sgeo|ShamedAgain has changed nick to Sgeo. 19:30:06 Fucking router. Accept packets. 19:32:30 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 19:32:42 At half seven‽ 19:56:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:05:08 -!- augur has joined. 20:05:45 -!- leBMD has joined. 20:05:55 Hello. 20:06:49 -!- relet has joined. 20:08:14 -!- cheater209 has changed nick to cheater00. 20:10:40 -!- cheater00 has changed nick to cheater-. 20:11:12 -!- cheater- has changed nick to cheater00. 20:15:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:15:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:15:44 leBMD! 20:15:53 hi! 20:19:30 So, I still haven't figured out how to get fingerprints in funge-98 to work right. XD 21:13:57 -!- leBMD has quit (Quit: my eyes hurt). 21:22:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:59:33 -!- derdon has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:11:13 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Quit: Quit). 22:13:13 -!- Mathnerd314 has joined. 22:21:31 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 22:29:16 -!- stalingrad has joined. 22:32:24 -!- stalingrad has left (?). 22:34:02 -!- relet has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:36:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 22:39:54 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:40:01 -!- alise has joined. 22:42:15 08:25:10 they have a download manager for direct music purchases, and they distribute Linux binaries 22:42:30 I have a download manager for zero-cost direct any media purchases, and they distribute Linux source AND binaries! 22:42:39 In fact, the protocol is open, and there are many different clients. 22:42:48 08:35:26 also apparently it uses boost 22:42:49 08:35:27 even better 22:42:49 Some definition of "better". 22:43:43 alise, some people do like staying on the right side of the law ... unless you're referring to HTTP instead of BitTorrent 22:44:25 Sgeo: BitTorrent is 150% legal. 22:44:31 Sgeo: People probably break the law all the time and don't realise it. 22:44:59 Besides, I consider obeying unenforceable, morally incorrect laws to be Wrong. 22:45:00 Also, yes. Each time your cells undergo mitosis you've violated patent law once again. 22:45:43 (though you could probably win the case under doctrine of laches) 22:45:50 "I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." ;; Heinlein is wrong about a lot of things, but he's pretty damn close to the mark here. 22:51:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:51:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:52:30 What does that even mean? 22:52:36 alise, ^ 22:52:43 Phantom_Hoover: Exactly what it says. 22:52:56 alise, I can do what I like? 22:53:09 What does "morally responsible" mean in this context? 22:53:11 I don't believe it said that, no. 22:53:29 . If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. 22:53:48 -!- cpressey has joined. 22:53:50 There's an awful lot of things flying over heads right now. 22:53:51 "I will follow whichever rules I want" 22:53:59 Actually head, singular. 22:54:22 alise, I suppose some context would help. 22:54:37 I suppose you could read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". 22:54:51 Context is for losers 22:55:10 And floosers. 22:55:16 And paloozas. 22:57:15 And dubdubdubdoozas? 22:59:32 Allegiance time 22:59:34 alise, OK, from the start. ""I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom." 22:59:39 loser cpressey reads the log 23:00:11 Surely that contradicts the rest? 23:01:23 In that it later states that he will ignore obnoxious rules. 23:02:43 Well, perhaps "accept" doesn't mean "follow" in that. 23:02:59 Hmm, perhaps. 23:06:06 -!- Quadrescence has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:07:48 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep 23:08:06 Wait, can I do that for quit messages? 23:08:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: → sleep). 23:09:15 Doesn't look quite the same, for me. But it looks the same in the tunes log. 23:21:45 -!- Quadrescence has joined. 23:21:55 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit (Quit: New quit message. Entering 2006 in style.). 23:24:39 Wikipedia: "In computability theory, a collection of data-manipulation rules (an instruction set, programming language, or cellular automaton) is said to be Turing complete if and only if such system can simulate a single-taped Turing machine." 23:24:56 Well, here's my single-taped Turing machine: it has one state and one symbol and one transition. 23:25:14 And here's my language X that simulates it: (insert trivial language here). 23:25:43 According to wikipedia, my language is Turing-complete. Because it "can simulate a single-taped Turing machine" -- the one I just described. 23:26:22 cpressey: I blame Wikipedia. It should say "any" or "a universal" 23:26:32 (which are equivalent) 23:26:37 Yes. Sorry if it wasn't clear -- I blame Wikipedia too :) 23:27:50 "any" and "a universal" aren't *quite* equivalent, unfortunately -- it brings up the issue of how you handle input. 23:28:26 pikhq: God dammit, why does MusicBrainz credit every single performer? 23:28:29 I just want tags! 23:28:32 I prefer "any". Otherwise you allow languages that can only simulate one fixed UTM to be called Turing-complete. It may be technically true, but... blargh 23:28:57 cpressey: a UTM is only universial if it can simulate any TM 23:29:02 cpressey: Well, any language that can simulate a UTM can simulate any TM. 23:29:16 if you fix the input as well, it's not universal 23:32:01 alise: Yeah well eff you. 23:32:55 cpressey: If you can simulate a specific UTM you can simulate all Turing-complete systems. So nyaah. 23:33:30 pikhq: My criticism is that a language that lets you only write one program is a boring language, even if that one program is a UTM. 23:33:34 pikhq: Maybe I'll create /usr/bin/DEFUCK_MUSICBRAINZ_TAGS. With that capitalisation. 23:33:40 For some value of "boring". 23:33:46 pikhq: we haven't proven that yet 23:33:53 Boring, of course; but Turing complete. 23:33:56 coppro: Uh, yes we have. 23:34:05 coppro: UTM = can simulate any Turing machine. 23:34:07 Oh, you mean -- 23:34:10 Church-Turing hypothesis? 23:34:12 yes 23:34:18 cpressey: If you can simulate a specific UTM you can simulate all Turing-complete [and no higher] systems. So nyaah. 23:34:23 Is the obvious implied meaning. 23:35:00 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:35:00 If, on the other hand, every TM maps to some (different) program in your language (and without regard to input for those programs), then your language is still Turing-complete, and less "boring". 23:35:58 'Swhy I prefer "any", is all. I'm not saying "a universal" is wrong or anything. 23:36:12 -!- Wamanuz has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:36:13 Well, of course it's a *boring* language. 23:36:25 We do not limit our definitions to only interesting languages. 23:36:31 What I'd really like is two different terms for those two properties. 23:36:58 -!- jcp has joined. 23:36:59 Turing-complete and "Pleases cpressey". 23:37:10 Which mean, what I'd really like is *a* term for the property I just described. 23:37:19 Cpressey-complete. 23:37:21 pikhq: Please sir, I did describe it more formally than that. 23:38:04 cpressey: you mean that a single program can simulate the set of Turing machines that are equivalent except for their input tape 23:38:07 ? 23:38:17 -!- nooga has joined. 23:38:22 coppro: no... 23:38:43 then please provide a different formal definition 23:39:22 so that I can explain why you're wrong 23:39:40 I mean, you have a language X, and you can map every TM to some unique element of X, and you don't have to do anything with input (except maybe a trivial mapping between alphabets if you like.) 23:39:46 coppro: How can a definition be wrong? 23:40:02 Internally inconsistent, maybe... 23:40:13 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: swatted to death). 23:40:19 cpressey: By "wrong" he means "stupid". 23:40:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:40:32 cpressey: input is part of a TM 23:41:10 coppro: Er - not in my definition of TMs, it's not. Otherwise how would you distinguish between the Halting Problem and the Uniform Halting Problem, for exampel? 23:41:58 You can look at a TM + its input as a set of TM's if you like, of course 23:42:13 cpressey: there is a very specific definition of a TM as a 7-tuple 23:42:37 coppro: There is also a very specific defintion of a TM as a 4-tuple 23:43:09 a 4-tuple? 23:43:15 6, I could see 23:45:12 Blame Papadimitriou, I guess. At any rate, it doesn't matter if input is part of a TM or not, for my definition, does it? 23:45:41 sure it does 23:45:49 because then you can provide a proper definition of what you're describing 23:45:53 -!- augur has joined. 23:46:11 coppro: Can you show how I have failed to do so? 23:46:23 "you don't have to do anything with input" is hopelessly vague 23:46:30 Fine, delete that part. 23:46:41 You have a language X, and you can map every TM to some unique element of X. 23:47:30 If X has this property, then X is Turing-complete. But Y can be Turing-complete, but not have this property. 23:47:46 So I'd like a name for this property. 23:47:48 That's all, really. 23:47:49 Turing-isomorphic? 23:47:53 Turing-specifier? 23:48:04 Isomorphic is wrong in case the language is super-TC. 23:48:19 cpressey: can you give an example of Y 23:48:20 Turing-onto? 23:48:42 Y might be a language with only one element: a program which implements a UTM. 23:49:04 cpressey: even some boring languages fit your specification 23:49:13 if you have a UTM simulator, and a function that spits out a UTM program to simulate a given TM 23:49:15 then just plug the two together 23:49:21 even though the language may not be able to "natively" simulate a given TM 23:49:35 otoh, a language that can do that is unlikely to be boring :) 23:50:47 FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUU 23:50:49 alise: I'm not totally sure I follow that particulat example but I'm aware there are probably ways to wiggle around this, which is why I was quick to scare-quotify "boring" :) 23:50:57 particular* 23:50:59 again, i got accidentaly killed in angband again 23:51:21 cpressey: say we have foo(x) = y such that UTM(y) simulates the turing machine x 23:51:27 cpressey: say foo is computable in language X 23:51:39 cpressey: say we also have a single UTM simulator in X 23:51:51 then UTMsim(foo(x)) proves X non-boring 23:51:58 even though it can only "natively" simulate one UTM 23:52:00 which you were trying to avoid 23:52:53 -!- jcp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:52:57 Well -- just because we *can* map every TM to some unique element of X doesn't mean we *have* to -- if that's what you're getting at 23:53:09 We can also map them all to one program 23:53:09 No. 23:53:27 You said "languages that can only simulate one UTM suck" and tried to provide a property that did not accept languages that can do that. 23:53:37 What I just demonstated is that even though language X can only express one UTM, it meets your property. 23:54:22 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:54:31 -!- tombom has joined. 23:54:43 I was using Y for that language, ftr -- but Y only *has* one element (the UTM program). How can all TMs map to *unique* elements of Y? 23:55:17 Oh, only one element full stop. 23:55:32 I thought you meant that it could have an assortment of random programs and subprograms, but only one actually did UTM computation. 23:55:51 Yeah. No. One element, full stop, as you say. 23:55:54 Like a "zap" instruction that interprets the Foo Buffer as a UTM, but all other operations form a sub-TC language. 23:55:56 -!- jcp has joined. 23:56:11 cpressey: Then it's as equal to the UTM it simulates as you can get; indistinguishable, even. 23:56:29 alise: Or a subset of Pascal that just contains one program, a Brainfuck interpeter. 23:56:50 I think those are such edge cases that you can just ignore them. 23:56:53 Don't be an AnMaster. :)