←2010-08-24 2010-08-25 2010-08-26→ ↑2010 ↑all
00:05:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, hi there
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00:18:21 <Vorpal> night
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00:34:34 <Sgeo> o.O
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01:15:48 <Sgeo> <Henzell> Sgeo the Chiller (L5 MfIE) became a worshipper of Sif Muna on turn 6485. (D:3)
01:18:39 <nooga> http://osblog.pl/ezoteryczne-jezyki-programowania/
01:18:53 <nooga> wow, some polish blogger links our wiki
01:19:43 <nooga> i found this article on wykop - polish digg's counterpart
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02:06:38 <Sgeo> RIP Sgeo
02:06:45 <Sgeo> worshipper of Sif Muna
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12:46:51 <Sgeo> ais523, what's wrong with Crawl's interface, if I may ask?
12:47:13 <ais523> several things
12:47:21 <ais523> inconsistent behaviour on the same keys is a large one
12:47:52 <ais523> what "zrH" does rather depends on what spell is in slot R, and how much MP you have
12:48:26 <ais523> as to whether the "rH" is interpreted as "cast spell r left", as "cast spell r, wait I don't have the MP, move left instead", or as "read scroll H" because you don't know any spells
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12:48:48 <ais523> the last case is not major as you probably aren't trying to cast anyway in that situation, but the first two are pretty nasty and trip me up all the time
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12:49:06 <ais523> also, low HP is not really as visible as it should be, mostly because the HP bars look much the same no matter what your health is
12:51:35 <Sgeo> How would zrH be made consistent? Taking a dummy direction?
12:51:46 <Sgeo> erm, well, not just direction I guess
12:52:20 <Sgeo> dummy aiming?
12:52:55 <ais523> the correct solution would be a --More-- on a failure to cast a spell, that absorbs the direction key
12:54:25 <Sgeo> Or other key such as f
12:54:31 <Sgeo> (which I tend to use a lot)
12:57:21 <fizzie> Topicality! A recent NetHack tweet by fungot: About NetHack: diamond dog is everybody's best friend. the mirror replied: "if you can't read between it. he is useful."
12:57:52 <fizzie> Also a bit hilarious: "About Penny Arcade: am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right, or am i right?"
12:58:37 <fizzie> How come it has had a sequence of awesome ones. "a reanimated corpse, death is but a loin-cloth. an elf would smell its rancid stench at ten..."
12:59:03 <ais523> that penny arcade one is brilliant
12:59:09 <ais523> a case of there being only two options in the chain?
12:59:53 <fizzie> Most likely. I should maybe make some sort of dumper script to the language model format so that I could diagnose things like that.
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13:06:53 <fizzie> Oh right, it was that silly inverted tree I had.
13:08:23 <fizzie> The "bar" child of the "foo" node under root contains data related to context "... bar foo _", where _ is the word it's trying to fill. Wrote it that way because I can then just descend the tree as long as there is both context remaining and child nodes to go to, then use the final node for choosing the word.
13:14:51 <fizzie> Heh, that was an interesting error from a "#! /usr/bin/env perl"-headered script:
13:14:52 <fizzie> bash: ./dump-model.pl: /usr/bin/env: bad interpreter: Text file busy
13:16:08 <ais523> I don't even know what errno code "Text file busy" corresponds to
13:16:12 <ais523> what system are you on? VMS?
13:16:55 * oerjan has a vague memory of seeing that message somewhere
13:17:26 <ais523> it's not as unnerving as "printer on fire"
13:22:02 <fizzie> This is a Linux system, but I'm thinking it's related to the NFS disk system.
13:22:21 <fizzie> I had within the same fraction of second saved the script, which might or might not be relevant.
13:22:51 <fizzie> #define ETXTBSY 26 /* Text file busy */
13:23:17 <fizzie> Also a representative line of Perl from the script: dumptree(read_node($_->[1]), [$_->[0], @$context]) foreach sort { $a->[1] cmp $b->[1] } map { [token2text($_), $tree->{'childs'}->{$_}] } keys %{$tree->{'childs'}};
13:23:40 <ais523> is it worrying that I can actually read that?
13:24:09 <ais523> besides, the plural of "child" is "children"
13:24:33 <fizzie> The elements of $tree are 'nexts' and 'childs'.
13:28:06 <fizzie> Okay, so. "am i right" is followed by a question mark with probability 0.5, and a comma with probability 0.5 also; "i right," is always followed by "or"; "right, or" is always followed by "am"; ", or am" is always followed by "i"; "or am i" is always followed by "right". So there's a 50 % chance of a loop there.
13:28:39 <ais523> and we have luck that it went like that
13:29:37 <oerjan> next you might investigate why the sword alone can't stop
13:32:02 <fizzie> For the "i right?" the possible continuations are end-of-sentence (with a probability depending on already generated length), or alternatively: "a" (10.53 %), "correct" (15.79 %), or one out of {did, fuck, he's, i, i'm, it's, maybe, robots, so, that, that's, they, why, you} each with a probability of 5.26 %.
13:33:29 <fizzie> Let's see about this sword, then.
13:34:19 <ais523> hmm, where is fungot, btw?
13:35:13 <oerjan> *gasp*
13:35:33 <Deewiant> Gone for about 14.08 hours
13:36:13 <fizzie> "sword alone" always gets "can't"; "alone can't" always gets "stop"; "can't stop" doesn't exist, so it uses "stop" as the only context; there's a lot of alternatives there, but prominent among them is the ! with about 10 %, and the comma with about 12 %.
13:37:47 <fizzie> "stop!" has a 23 % chance of being followed by "that" (other about equally possible alternatives are "intruders", "these", "this"); "stop! that" always gets the sword.
13:38:43 <fizzie> There's a significantly smaller chance of a loop there; we must either have been very lucky, or the randomness/use-of-it could be bad.
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13:39:25 <Deewiant> It was repeatable, no?
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13:40:22 <fizzie> If by that you mean we got the "that sword alone can't stop!" loop multiple times, yes.
13:40:37 <oerjan> how can "can't stop" not exist, when it's generated...
13:40:52 <ais523> probably it always ends a sentence
13:41:05 <fizzie> It just means there hasn't been enough "can't stop X" sort of snippets for it to be able to give meaningful probabilities for X.
13:41:10 <fizzie> So it uses a shorter context there.
13:41:11 <Deewiant> fizzie: Given that, I'd suggest there's not enough randomness
13:41:15 <oerjan> hm
13:42:03 <fizzie> I think I trained the chrono trigger model with our variable-length n-gram toolkit; my handcrafted one would use fixed context lengths everywhere.
13:42:29 <fizzie> ^style ct
13:42:29 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
13:42:42 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know why the sword just couldn't stop the other day?
13:42:42 <fungot> fizzie: i shall help also. i shall depart for good. it's what that guy in medina, a village near the mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
13:43:11 <fizzie> fungot: Oh no, please don't depart for good.
13:43:11 <fungot> fizzie: that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone can't stop! that sword alone
13:43:15 <fizzie> Ha!
13:43:21 <fizzie> That was very lucky.
13:43:32 <fizzie> (Or synchronisticy, perhaps.)
13:43:45 <ais523> it's the RNG screwing with you
13:43:48 <ais523> they have a tendency to do that
13:45:30 <Sgeo> Xom?
13:46:35 <oerjan> that definitely doesn't look like a like thing to happen with 23% probabilities :D
13:46:38 <oerjan> *likely
13:47:03 <ais523> Sgeo: are you referring to the rigged RNG in ##crawl which always returns "xom" if it's ever given as an option?
13:47:41 <Vorpal> hm strange really, when comparing results from bootchart on jaunty and lucid (same set of daemons except for some changes to the core set, such as readahead -> ureadahead, and that is not my choice), lucid takes about twice as long to boot
13:47:46 <Sgeo> Didn't realize there was such a bot. I just remember seeing some mention that Xom was sometimes referred to as RNG
13:47:52 <Vorpal> 1:11 instead of 33 seconds
13:48:01 <fizzie> oerjan: Less than 23 %: it also should be only 10 % for "!" to follow "stop". So just .23*.1 for it to keep looping per round.
13:48:11 <Sgeo> Which rng?
13:48:18 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> !rng xom notxom
13:48:18 <Sgeo> <Henzell> The RNG chooses: notxom.
13:48:51 <oerjan> !haskell (0.023)^14
13:49:01 <EgoBot> 1.1592836324538744e-23
13:49:18 <oerjan> i _say_ we have statistical significance, there
13:49:55 <ais523> Sgeo: not sure, I don't hang out in ##crawl
13:50:04 <ais523> it may have been fixed (or unfixed, depending on your point of view) by now
13:50:07 <fizzie> Originally I had in the file just the pure n-gram counts, and their sum: if there's "foo bar" twice and "foo bar" thrice, it would have in the "foo" node totalnext=5, bar=2, baz=3.
13:50:14 <Sgeo> ais523, you're in the LearnDB
13:50:19 <ais523> heh
13:50:35 <ais523> that is an actual quote by me, yes
13:50:39 <ais523> although much of the context is missing
13:51:04 <ais523> note I said "inconsistent" at the start; the entire quote is about Crawl's interface being much worse at consistency than even NetHack's
13:51:19 <fizzie> For the variable-length ngram models, I only get floating-point probabilities from the tool, so I put totalnext = about 134217726 in all nodes, and divide that to the alternatives using the probabilities given.
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13:52:54 <Sgeo> Someone asked about preventing SQL Injection. Someone said filtering input, someone else said parameterized queries, I piped in and suggested the latter, and that the former's tricky and unreliable
13:53:08 <fizzie> It might be that the large numbers there are confusing it. I'm supposed to be generating a [0, 2^28-1] random number there, and then do that modulo totalnext, but maybe I don't.
13:53:10 <fizzie> ^source
13:53:11 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
13:53:40 <ais523> Sgeo: always use some form of query parameterization; either parameterized queries directly, or prepared statements
13:54:02 <ais523> not only is this easier to get right than filtering, it also doesn't put really arbitrary restrictions on your input
13:54:25 <fizzie> Hhheh.
13:54:41 <fizzie> Actually, now that I look at the befunge, I seem to be generating a number in the [0, 2^24-1] range.
13:55:15 <fizzie> So for a case where there's a probability of ~23 % on the first alternative, it would pick it in reality about (.23/.25) of the time.
13:55:37 <oerjan> ..now the big question, would fixing that bug be improving fungot or destroying it...
13:55:38 <fungot> oerjan: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
13:56:55 <fizzie> Do you want to see me fix it with a live "^code" patch? It's anyone's guess if I manage to calculate the offset of the place to 'p' in right. :p
13:57:28 * oerjan recommends a backup
13:57:38 <fizzie> Oh, it won't modify anything on-disk anyway.
13:58:53 <ais523> go for it
13:59:13 <ais523> the HEAD: implies you have a VCS as backup
13:59:36 <fizzie> It's line 142, column 34, according to my editor; converted zero-based, that's line 141, column 33; and there's a load offset of (0,100) for the bot code, so I want... 'f{33}{241}p, I think. With {n} converted to an acceptable number.
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14:00:40 <ais523> 33 is b3*
14:01:40 <fizzie> 'f3b*ff1+*1+p perhaps.
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14:02:24 <ais523> are you going to try it and accidentally disable the do-not-become-Skynet code?
14:02:29 <fizzie> I'm just trying to remember if there was something I had to remember with ^code.
14:03:04 <fizzie> ^code 'f3b*ff1+*1+p
14:03:17 <fizzie> fungot: Uh... how are you feeling? Can the sword now stop?
14:03:17 <fungot> fizzie: i see. you know, i really care... a time portal? what in the...! ozzie's stumped! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have? transform! this trading house. it's the kind! i've decided to stay with these humans! you're a traitor! you're not our king! but, we are far outnumbered!
14:03:33 <ais523> "the sword takes" in that line
14:03:58 <fizzie> It's "the sword", though, not "that sword". But it's still promising.
14:03:59 <ais523> but not "that sword"
14:04:03 <ais523> fungot: try again
14:04:03 <fungot> ais523: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
14:04:36 <fizzie> fungot: Uh... you're repeating yourself there. You already spoke about Magus being our only hope just a moment ago.
14:04:37 <fungot> fizzie: in the middle ages, sir slush!...
14:05:52 <fizzie> That sounds like some obscure sort of insult.
14:06:00 <ais523> yep
14:06:05 <ais523> fungot: I'm still interested in that sword...
14:06:06 <fungot> ais523: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss them! use the y button displays the time to drop by!? all the young must migrate to other planets...to repeat the cycle...
14:06:28 <ais523> that's mostly nonsensical, but the bit at the end is scary
14:06:56 <fizzie> It's funny how NPC characters in games speak of "the Y button" and so; there's a trope for it and all.
14:07:43 <oerjan> isn't it not entirely unlikely that the same bug that causes "that sword" to loop also causes it to be probable to start in the first place?
14:07:45 <ais523> HSUP B TCELES, as GameSpite's Talking Time puts it
14:07:51 <ais523> oerjan: quite possibly
14:08:35 <oerjan> ye olde Y buttone
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14:35:47 <nooga> how about
14:35:52 <nooga> esoteric roguelike
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14:36:59 <nooga> like walking through random befunge programs or something :D
14:38:50 <ais523> nooga: I have the start of an esolang text adventure lying around somewhere
14:38:58 <ais523> it had an INTERCAL room, and a BF room
14:39:29 <ais523> also, a staircase based on an esolang whose name I have difficulty remembering
14:39:50 <ais523> but it's based on commands that look like "1. Go to step 3." and "2. Swap step 4 with step 6."
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14:45:52 <ais523> can anyone help me identify the esolang?
14:46:15 <ais523> oh, SMETANA
14:46:23 <ais523> these things just come to you after a while...
14:57:32 <Vorpal> hm was it ehird that predicted that ipv6 won't ever be deployed, and instead heavy NATing will be used?
14:57:58 <madbrain2> isn't that what's happening?
14:58:08 <Vorpal> well, not in all areas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPv6#Deployment
14:58:14 <Vorpal> see about phones and such
14:59:18 <Vorpal> also somewhat widespread deployment in china
14:59:25 <Sgeo> Vorpal, I thought that was you who predicted that, and mentioned ais523
14:59:38 <Vorpal> Sgeo, no?
14:59:42 <ais523> Sgeo: are you now mentioning someone else mentioning me?
14:59:59 <Sgeo> I.. think
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15:16:00 <nooga> or maybe roguelike with elements of sokoban
15:16:07 <nooga> and rube
15:16:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Esolang>
15:16:34 <Phantom_Hoover> s/>/?/
15:17:15 <Sgeo> "Best/worst Crawl (or other RL) death?"
15:17:31 <Sgeo> Any RL death that I have is the worst
15:17:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Naw, I've had some nice enough ones.
15:18:52 <ais523> Sgeo: I ate the same trice corpse twice, once
15:18:57 <ais523> thus neatly defeating my AoLS
15:19:30 * Sgeo was attempting to note the ambiguity of "RL"
15:19:32 <Sgeo> *shrug*
15:19:33 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/comments/d57s7/bestworst_crawl_or_other_rl_death/
15:20:55 <nooga> i hate it
15:21:20 <madbrain2> haven't played any rogue likes... they seem like asshole games
15:21:37 <nooga> i have biiiig screen and sometimes i don't notice information about hunger
15:22:03 <nooga> and then i walk and walk throu a corridor *KABOOM* death by starvation, bye bye
15:22:16 <nooga> what a stupid idea
15:22:22 <madbrain2> yeah
15:22:32 <madbrain2> asshole games I say
15:23:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, you fail at pun.
15:23:52 <ais523> madbrain2: they take some getting used to
15:23:58 <Phantom_Hoover> madbrain2, yeah, but it's a classhole game, to copy xkcd.
15:25:39 <madbrain2> like, RNG death? come on
15:26:25 <ais523> mostly there are things you can do to avoid it
15:26:36 <ais523> or decide if it's a risk you're willing to take
15:26:38 <Phantom_Hoover> madbrain2, no, not really
15:26:51 <Phantom_Hoover> The RNG can induce death, but it's always evitable.
15:26:52 <ais523> to put it another way, games where you can constantly reload to get the desired outcome, may as well not have randomness at all
15:27:11 <Phantom_Hoover> a/always/almost always/
15:27:16 <Sgeo> "Did you notice how many people complain these days? I hate that.
15:27:16 <Sgeo> "
15:27:21 <Sgeo> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:donald
15:27:25 <nooga> oh shit
15:27:30 <nooga> i forgot about the stag party
15:28:43 <Phantom_Hoover> nooga, but you got to talk to us!
15:28:55 <nooga> fear nort
15:28:57 <nooga> not*
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15:29:11 <nooga> the whole thing is taking place in my flat
15:29:42 <nooga> so i can use my computer while friends watch the striptease
15:29:45 <Phantom_Hoover> There was a stag party going on in the same flat as you and you *forgot* about it.
15:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> What
15:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> Who is getting married?
15:30:44 <nooga> not me
15:30:53 <ais523> nooga: so why wouldn't you watch the striptease too?
15:30:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, that's less weird.
15:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, he can watch it on his computer!
15:33:34 <madbrain2> eh, I grew with the SNES miyamoto "not asshole" design... I think it's a winner ;)
15:34:59 <Sgeo> I guess I should look up "stag party"
15:35:36 <ais523> Sgeo: a party that a man and his male friends have immediately before he gets married
15:35:43 <ais523> they're rather infamous for a lot of things
15:35:50 <ais523> the female equivalent is a "hen party"
15:36:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Quite why it isn't a doe party, I shall never know.
15:36:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Or indeed, why stag parties aren't rooster parties.
15:36:23 <ais523> presumably the male version was originally "cock party" but they changed it because it was too literal
15:39:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I was going to mention that.
15:40:32 <nooga> indeed
15:40:40 <nooga> i'm a bit worried
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16:12:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Your majesty!
16:13:36 <KingOfKarlsruhe> it´s just a nickname
16:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Impostor!
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16:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Kill the pretender to the true King!
16:15:26 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, attack!
16:15:26 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: these unique items make us invincible!
16:15:33 <Phantom_Hoover> THEY DO!
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17:12:46 <Phantom_Hoover> There are insufficient graph-based esolangs...
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17:43:59 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Did you see the (unimaginative) Grasp I scetched out purely because of there being an insufficient amount of graph-related langs? (I advertised it here a couple of times, but can't recall if you were here then.)
17:44:10 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, yes.
17:44:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I just forgot it.
17:44:35 <Phantom_Hoover> What languages are good for dicking about with graphs?
17:45:20 <fizzie> I guess it depends on whether you want to graphically dick around, or graph-theoretically dick around, or something else.
17:46:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Prolog seems vaguely appropriate, but I'm not sure why.
17:48:36 * pikhq hates waking up when class would start
17:48:55 <fizzie> Anything that can use C-interfaced libraries is often a safe bet; there are graph-related libs, like NAUTY, the (self-styled) world's fastest isomorphism testing program.
17:52:13 <fizzie> It also has an interesting licence; "application with nontrivial military significance" is not exactly a common exception. (Also one has to wonder how much the military does graph isomorphisms...)
17:53:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, you don't know? You're better off that way, anyway.
18:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> The military have their reasons for graph isomorphisms...
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18:40:51 * pikhq does a spit-take
18:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Why?
18:42:00 <pikhq> God dammit Scandinavia, making me bitter.
18:42:09 <pikhq> Norway has free post-secondary education.
18:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> So does Scotland, at least for the Scottish, at least for the moment.
18:42:55 <pikhq> Bastards!
18:42:58 <Phantom_Hoover> Or you don't need to pay tuition fees, I dunno.
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18:43:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Or they're paid for you, do you get how vague my grasp of this is?
18:43:39 <pikhq> Mmm.
18:44:23 <ais523> Scotland has no tuition fees
18:45:37 <pikhq> Dear USA: your college system sucks ass unless you drive a solid gold Humvee.
18:45:41 <pikhq> FIX IT.
18:46:07 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, thanks for knowing more about Scotland than I do.
18:46:17 <Phantom_Hoover> This disturbs me somewhat.
18:46:54 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: are you Scottish?
18:47:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
18:47:11 <ais523> (I'm not, but I hang around the political student types here who debate tuition fees)
18:47:28 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Well, ais523 is at least in the UK (England, I think, but I could be wrong). Sooo, it's not exactly unreasonable for him to have a clue about Scotland.
18:47:31 <pikhq> ;)
18:47:40 <Phantom_Hoover> Manchester, IIRC.
18:48:06 <ais523> pikhq: yes, England specifically
18:48:10 <ais523> not Manchester, though
18:48:16 <ais523> the /other/ second city
18:48:28 <Phantom_Hoover> Birmingham?
18:48:53 <fizzie> Why is it always about ham?
18:49:09 <pikhq> fizzie: Ham is delicious.
18:50:05 <fizzie> There's been a lot of talk about Finland starting to charge tuition fees for university students, at least for non-Finnish exchange students. As far as I know they haven't yet gotten around to.
18:50:40 <Phantom_Hoover> I don't know what the tuition situation in Scotland is.
18:51:47 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: yep
18:52:10 <fizzie> "In selected English-language Master's degree programmes it will be possible for the Finnish higher education institutions to collect tuition fees starting autumn 2010, 2011 or 2012." Okay, so I guess it's not completely free in absolutely all cases.
18:52:26 <fizzie> (Though it's still only for "non-EU/EEA nationals".)
18:53:00 <ais523> the non-EU seems to be a common thread amongst tuition fee differences in the EU
18:53:05 <ais523> so I expect there's some sort of enforcement
18:53:44 <pikhq> I suspect that out-of-EU tuition still seems cheap to Americans.
18:54:00 <ais523> pikhq: mostly to Chinese, actually
18:54:16 <ais523> at least half of the non-EU intake here, at least, seems to be Chinese students for some reason
18:54:19 <pikhq> ais523: What's the figures look like?
18:54:33 <ais523> this is anecdotal, I don't know the exact numbers
18:54:52 <pikhq> Yeah, that's not too surprising. I'd say about half of the non-US students are from China or India here.
18:54:55 <ais523> but it's the same across multiple departments
18:55:20 <fizzie> Also based on anecdotal experience, but there's a large component of Chinese visitors at our place too.
19:01:44 <Sgeo> "Because nobody wants to live in a world without cookies"
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19:04:20 <pikhq> Huh. The US Constitution is the shortest constitution of any nation.
19:04:52 <pikhq> Sorry, shortest constitution of any government at all.
19:05:36 <pikhq> And probably the most misunderstood.
19:05:53 <ais523> the UK Constitution is zero-length!
19:06:06 <ais523> many Americans are shocked to hear that it isn't actually formalised anywhere
19:06:27 <ais523> it's made out of something like four different laws, plus a few conventions that aren't legally binding but that have been followed forever
19:07:11 <pikhq> ais523: I'd even hesitate to call it a constitution at all.
19:07:29 <ais523> it's normally called that by people who study it
19:07:51 <pikhq> Basically what you have is "the monarchs' word is law", and a bunch of laws & traditions restricting the monarchs' word.
19:07:55 <ais523> the standard agreement that the Lords don't vote against points in the ruling party's manifesto is completely muddled atm, though
19:08:11 <ais523> on the basis that we have a coalition ruling, and it didn't have a manifesto before the election
19:08:43 <pikhq> The UK legal system is completely bonkers.
19:08:49 <pikhq> It *works*, but oooouch.
19:09:27 <ais523> that's quite a compliment, I think
19:15:14 <pikhq> Also, the House of Lords befuddles me.
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19:16:13 <Phantom_Hoover> pikhq, it befuddles me, too.
19:16:38 <ais523> pikhq: the old system, which worked fine for ages, was to stuff it full of the children of other Lords, on the basis that they were less likely to be partisan, rich enough not to be bribed easily, and sane enough to keep the Commons in check
19:16:44 <ais523> some people disapproved of this
19:17:13 <ais523> the Labour government introduced a new system a few years ago, and were caught taking bribes to make people Lords as a result
19:17:19 <ais523> but that system's still in place, with people being appointed
19:17:39 <ais523> I'm not sure if it'll lead to disaster yet; it hasn't done so yet but it's still rather new
19:19:17 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:House_of_Lords.jpg That's... Pretty lavish.
19:20:07 <ais523> it's a pretty old building
19:20:21 <ais523> that sort of thing usd to be standard in government buildings
19:21:25 <pikhq> For comparison, US senate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:110th_US_Senate_class_photo.jpg Rather lavish, but seriously. *Everything is covered in gold at the House of Lords*.
19:22:04 <coppro> the Senate looks temporary
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19:22:31 <pikhq> It's been done like that since the Capitol was built.
19:23:55 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obama_Health_Care_Speech_to_Joint_Session_of_Congress.jpg This is a bit more what you'd expect, right?
19:24:19 <coppro> yes, I've seen the house of reps before
19:24:27 <coppro> and wow, that's packed
19:24:45 <coppro> which chamber's procedural rules are used in a joint session?
19:27:54 <ais523> don't they both use Robert's rules anyway?
19:28:03 <pikhq> It appears that it depends on who is presiding. If it's the Speaker of the House (as in most cases), House rules. If it's the President of the Senate (for instance, when electoral votes are being counted), then Senate rules.
19:28:04 <ais523> or are those outdated and oldfashioned things that modern Americans ignore/
19:28:47 <coppro> ais523: I believe that procedural rules similar to Robert's are used, but most legislative bodies have unique demands and so unique procedures
19:29:23 <pikhq> It's similar to Robert's rules of order in both cases.
19:30:55 <pikhq> Oh, Robert's Rules of Order is actually based on the rules used in the House.
19:31:25 <coppro> there are weird rules in both of them, IIRC, such as the House of Representatives' use of 'tabling' an item to kill it, and the Senate's filibuster rules
19:32:38 <pikhq> Both the Senate and the House use rules derived from "Manual of Parliamentary Practice for the Use of the Senate of the United States", by Thomas Jefferson...
19:33:31 <pikhq> Which was itself based on British parliamentary procedure.
19:34:22 <ais523> coppro: the filibuster rules in the House of Lords are great, as they require you to actually talk for the entire time period
19:34:33 <coppro> well, yes
19:34:37 <pikhq> ais523: Pity the Senate stopped that.
19:34:37 <coppro> that's an actual filibuster
19:34:40 <ais523> which leads to some crazy drunken ramblings, and also talk relays
19:34:52 <coppro> saying 'I don't like this bill' is not a filibuster
19:35:04 <ais523> coppro: the rules about filibusters are quite strict here, but they have to be actual filibusters in addition to meeting the requirements
19:35:07 <pikhq> I'd love to have political ads containing Republicans reading from the phone book.
19:35:08 <ais523> which is kind-of quaint
19:35:16 * Phantom_Hoover wonders whether learning to ARM would be worthwhile.
19:35:41 <pikhq> Maybe they'd stop "filibustering" each and every act of the Senate.
19:36:31 <Vorpal> <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Obama_Health_Care_Speech_to_Joint_Session_of_Congress.jpg This is a bit more what you'd expect, right? <-- still... that is some expensive interior.. Nothing compared to the other ones though
19:37:07 <Vorpal> I mean, that wood looks like mahogany or teak or something to me. Definitely not your everyday wood anyway
19:37:17 <pikhq> Vorpal: Yes, the House has a rather expensive interior. And expansive.
19:37:20 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Then you'd be properly ARMed for all kinds of situations.
19:37:29 <pikhq> It's what people actually *see* of Congress.
19:37:29 <madbrain2> that's not surprising for an institution that large an important
19:37:36 <Phantom_Hoover> It can't do any 'ARM.
19:38:14 <pikhq> The Senate has 100 people in its chamber, and a tradition of using desks. With names carved into them by each Senator...
19:38:19 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm that pun was oerjan worthy
19:40:00 <Vorpal> pikhq, hm this might be something for you, a few days ago I tried to stuff all 4 variants of affect/effect in a single sentence, only managed 3 though, never figured out how to stuff affect as noun into it as well.
19:40:08 <Vorpal> so that's a challenge
19:40:57 <Vorpal> (optional extra: make it sound natural)
19:41:45 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't affect how he effects these effects!
19:42:05 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that is 3
19:42:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Yeah, what's the 4th?
19:42:22 <Vorpal> affect as noun
19:42:24 <Vorpal> as I said
19:43:06 <Phantom_Hoover> I cant affect how he effects these effects on my affects!
19:43:10 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, or did you mean you don't know what it means as a noun? In that case: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affect?jss=0
19:43:25 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, hm... seems to work
19:44:42 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, "effects these effects" sound a bit redundant though
19:44:52 <Phantom_Hoover> No, not really.
19:45:08 <Phantom_Hoover> They have different meanings.
19:45:10 <Vorpal> indeed it *isn't* redundant
19:45:14 <Vorpal> it just *sounds* redundant
19:46:20 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't affect how effect these affects the affects!
19:46:36 <Phantom_Hoover> I suspect that may actually be fairly correct English.
19:46:44 <Vorpal> "how effect" ?
19:47:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, I can't claim it isn't correct English, however I fail at parsing it
19:47:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I can't affect how these affects effect these effects.
19:47:22 <Vorpal> ah
19:47:27 <Vorpal> that is a lot more sensible
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20:14:23 <Phantom_Hoover> comex_!
20:15:45 <comex_> it's a me!
20:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Or is it‽
20:39:41 * Sgeo interrobangs Phantom_Hoover
20:41:00 <coppro> the interrobang should be the name of a gun
20:44:23 <coppro> you know it to be true
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20:46:09 <Phantom_Hoover> malorie, new?
20:47:58 <malorie> Phantom_Hoover: yeah. :)
20:48:34 <malorie> I'm currently implementing a befunge-intpreter, but I'm facing some stack problems..
20:48:34 <pikhq> *Aaaah*, Kansas (band).
20:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> fungot, say hello to malorie.
20:48:39 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
20:48:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ^source
20:48:48 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
20:48:53 <pikhq> ^style
20:48:53 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
20:49:04 <pikhq> Chrono Trigger, eh? Heheheh.
20:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> malorie, what kind of stack problems?
20:53:20 <malorie> I'm uncertain about how I should implement the pop instructions. when I abort execution when I try to pop the already empty stack some programs crash. when I just return 0 in such a case (popping the empty stack, that is) everything works fine..
20:53:44 <Phantom_Hoover> I think that's what the standards explicitly define.
20:54:02 <malorie> ah. that'd be awesome!
20:54:03 <pikhq> malorie: Which Befunge?
20:54:08 <malorie> 93
20:54:24 <pikhq> It's either return 0 or undefined behavior.
20:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, 98 definitely. But that's because it defines *everything*
20:54:32 <pikhq> I don't recall which.
20:54:44 <pikhq> Go with return 0, though; that's what programs assume.
20:55:07 <malorie> yeah. makes sense.
20:55:27 <Phantom_Hoover> And according to Cat's Eye, it's 0-with-empty-stack.
20:57:59 <malorie> ah. I must have missed that part, then ...
20:59:13 <Phantom_Hoover> I'm not sure if that's the official spec, though.
20:59:33 <Phantom_Hoover> Befunge is about the only esolang that actually needs one.
21:05:58 <fizzie> I believe 0-on-empty-stack is a very fundamentally Befungey feature.
21:06:52 <fizzie> (In the spec it's at the very end of the "The Stack" section.)
21:07:28 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:08:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Aha, mr 523!
21:08:38 <Phantom_Hoover> s/m/M/
21:09:17 <ais523> heh
21:09:22 <fizzie> There is also the widespread thing that in 93, if you / by zero, the interpreter should ask the user what the result should be, instead of crashing or returning 0. (The funge-98 spec, while saying that there it produces a 0 always, says that "Befunge-93 instead is supposed to ask the user", but the asking is not in the '93 spec-doc.)
21:09:51 <Phantom_Hoover> Using that as an IO mechanism would be awesome.
21:10:20 <pikhq> In my Befunge 93 interpreter, I didn't implement that. Because I like treating undefined behavior differently. :)
21:10:48 <Phantom_Hoover> So in pikhqcc, #pragma just drops you into NetHack?
21:11:01 <olsner> heh, #pragma nethack :D
21:11:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: No, #pragma nethack.
21:11:20 <pikhq> The other pragmas start a siren.
21:12:19 <pikhq> Except for #pragma gcc, which replaces the translation unit with a portion of gcc source code.
21:13:42 * Phantom_Hoover doesn't have #pragma nethack
21:13:51 <fizzie> execl("/usr/games/hack", "#pragma", 0);
21:13:51 <fizzie> execl("/usr/games/rogue", "#pragma", 0);
21:13:51 <fizzie> execl("/usr/new/emacs", "-f","hanoi","9","-kill",0);
21:13:51 <fizzie> execl("/usr/local/emacs“,"-f“,"hanoi“,"9“,"-kill“,0);
21:13:51 <fizzie> fatal("You are in a maze of twisty compiler features, all different");
21:14:05 <fizzie> That's very... persistant.
21:14:51 <fizzie> (Makes one wonder in how many places emacs is in /usr/new...)
21:15:49 <Sgeo> Ok, I just used pastie as a verb
21:15:57 <Sgeo> pastie'd
21:15:57 <Phantom_Hoover> Discuss.
21:16:11 <ais523> fizzie: I'm aware of the algo
21:16:21 <ais523> wasn't it later changed to NetHack over Hack?
21:16:39 <Sgeo> It should be switched to Crawl
21:16:48 <Sgeo> </not-THAT-obsessed-with-crawl>
21:17:05 <Sgeo> I wish it was a bit more than "autoexplore, fight monsters, hope to live, rest, repeat"
21:17:14 <Phantom_Hoover> I preferred it when you were obsessed with NetHack.
21:17:55 <ais523> I've been kicked or banned from ##crawl-dev at least twice, IIRC
21:18:03 <Sgeo> ais523, for what o.O
21:18:07 <ais523> (counting a kickban as 1 rather than 2)
21:18:22 <ais523> Sgeo: disagreeing with the Crawl devs to such an extent that whenever I go there I'm basically trolling
21:18:36 <Sgeo> o.O
21:18:46 <ais523> I left voluntarily, in the end, upon realising I was incapable of doing anything but trolling there
21:18:48 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, over what/
21:18:55 <ais523> I go back occasionally then change my mind soon after
21:19:01 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the direction the game is going, mostly
21:19:09 <ais523> well, more or less everything else too
21:19:15 <Phantom_Hoover> The wrong one?
21:19:16 <ais523> but that in particular
21:19:21 <ais523> well, I think so
21:19:23 <Sgeo> what direction?
21:19:32 <Phantom_Hoover> LEFT
21:19:49 <ais523> Sgeo: it's the way they're aiming for balance, I think
21:20:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Betwixt what and what?
21:20:12 <ais523> which a) involves removing features quite a bit, b) involves nerfs to things that were valid tactical options, and c) doesn't actually work
21:20:25 <ais523> meanwhile, they're adding a lot of things just for the coolness factor
21:20:40 <pikhq> ais523: Coolness factor?
21:20:52 <ais523> pikhq: "wouldn't it be cool if...", pretty much
21:20:54 <pikhq> Y'know, the best way to do that is The Dev Team Thinks of Everything.
21:21:01 <ais523> Crawl's the opposite
21:21:10 <pikhq> ...
21:21:16 <pikhq> That's the best part about nethack!
21:21:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Wouldn't it be cool if you could have non-Euclidean dungeons?
21:21:18 <ais523> it's more like The Dev Team Yells At Everything They Didn't Think Of
21:21:23 <fizzie> ais523: Re change to nethack, don't know. The GNU FTP site (or at least funet's mirror) only has 1.42 (and then 2.x onwards); but there it's #if 0'd -- /* This was a fun hack, but #pragma seems to start to be useful. By failing to recognize it, we pass it through unchanged to cc1. */ -- and there it tries those four, though only if it can open /dev/tty as stdin/stdout.
21:21:26 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: don't get them started...
21:21:35 <Phantom_Hoover> But that WOULD be cool!
21:21:41 <ais523> well, yes, but...
21:21:57 <ais523> also, they've made some very unpopular decisions and not even mentioned them in changelogs
21:22:09 <ais523> try going to ##crawl and asking why they dislike acid walls in Slime, or circular ranges
21:22:09 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Nethack could use one. :P
21:22:40 <Phantom_Hoover> It could!
21:33:16 <Sgeo> ais523, I'm scared of irritating someone
21:33:50 <ais523> ##crawl pretty much unanimously agree that acid walls and circular ranges are bad, I think
21:34:07 <ais523> so you're unlikely to irritate someone unless you try to argue in their favour
21:34:11 <ais523> or a dev happens to be looking in
21:34:32 <Sgeo> circular ranges?
21:34:52 <Phantom_Hoover> Ranges what are circles.
21:35:56 <Phantom_Hoover> Rather than squares, I assume.
21:43:44 <oerjan> um isn't that more or less non-euclidean light?
21:43:58 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, ...no.
21:44:21 <oerjan> um what is a range then
21:44:36 <Phantom_Hoover> How far you can shoot at stuff.
21:44:40 <oerjan> oh
21:45:28 <oerjan> ...in that case squares are the non-euclidean version, i guess
21:45:42 <oerjan> (technically)
21:45:54 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, in a really boring sense.
21:46:24 <Phantom_Hoover> By "non-Euclidean" I mean that you can shoot yourself in the back of the head without much trouble.
21:47:52 <oerjan> non-orientable non-euclidean is when you shoot yourself in the back of the head, and the arrow has turned into its mirror version.
21:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Indeed.
21:48:11 <Phantom_Hoover> This is what NetHack needs.
21:48:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Although the message when you dip a bottle into itself may need revision.
21:48:48 <oerjan> what message?
21:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover> "This is a potion bottle, not a Klein bottle!" or somesuch.
21:49:33 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I think you got it verbatim
21:49:37 <Phantom_Hoover> And a Klein bottle is naturally possible with this.
21:51:08 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: And sticking a bag in itself?
21:51:18 <Phantom_Hoover> What does that say?
21:51:31 <pikhq> "That would be an interesting topological exercise."
21:53:25 <Sgeo> What does Cra.. wait, Crawl doesn't have bags, does it?
21:53:33 <Sgeo> Just drop it on the floor, ^F will find it for you
21:54:27 <oerjan> hm we discussed this at some point earlier didn't we, and we concluded that the only topologies that could be easily made into square grids were those with euler characteristic 0 or something
21:55:19 <Sgeo> What characteristic is a torus?
21:55:30 <oerjan> the right one
21:55:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, 0 is plane, torus and Klein.
21:55:49 <Sgeo> So characteristic doesn't mean uninteresting
21:56:02 <Sgeo> What would Klein be like?
21:56:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Sphere and projective plane have other one.
21:56:26 <oerjan> given that torus is about the _simplest_ to do as square layout without borders. i think this was for boundaryless topologies
21:56:31 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, like a torus, but with one of the edges glued on backwards/
21:56:54 <Sgeo> What would be with both edges on backwards?
21:57:01 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_characteristic#Examples
21:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> Projective plane.
21:57:08 <Phantom_Hoover> EC 1 or something.
21:57:12 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't that work?
21:57:13 <oerjan> projective plane has 1, sphere has 2
21:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Wrong EC, like I said.
21:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, basically:
21:57:41 <olsner> eh, how do you do that to a torus?
21:58:12 <oerjan> torus is just left edge wrapping to right, and top to bottom
21:58:22 <Phantom_Hoover> The EC of a figure is V-E+F for a planar graph.
21:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> For the Moore neighbourhood (i.e. a square grid), for each face, there are 2 edges and 1 vertex. V-E+F=1-2+1=0
21:59:17 <olsner> oerjan: ooh, I actually understand that
21:59:26 <olsner> so how do you do it backwards?
21:59:39 <Phantom_Hoover> olsner, Klein bottle or projective plane
21:59:55 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, so only a surface with EC 0 can have a Moore neighbourhood on it.
21:59:57 <oerjan> you wrap say top edge to bottom _reversed_
21:59:58 <ais523> hmm, where's AnMaster?
22:00:04 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, Vorpal now.
22:00:07 <Sgeo> Moore neighborhood?
22:00:09 * Sgeo tireds
22:00:12 <ais523> Vorpal = AnMaster?
22:00:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, square grid.
22:00:17 <ais523> wow
22:00:18 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, yes.
22:00:24 <olsner> ah, "left" of top to "right" of bottom? this is awesome
22:00:25 <ais523> Vorpal: here?
22:00:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, chessboard.
22:00:34 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, ty
22:00:59 <oerjan> olsner: like you make a mobius strip, except you _also_ stitch together the edges of it
22:01:13 <oerjan> (which cannot be done in 3D physics)
22:01:52 <oerjan> *the edge of it, there's just one
22:01:56 <olsner> can it in 4D or higher dimensional physics?
22:02:02 <oerjan> certainly
22:02:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_polygon#Examples has the mappings for the edges for a sphere, projective plane, Klein bottle and toruss.
22:02:15 <ais523> apparently not
22:02:39 <oerjan> well, you can put the klein bottle in 4D without self-intersection
22:02:41 <ais523> any Linux users here willing to help me with a C-INTERCAL related task?
22:02:48 <Phantom_Hoover> I might be...
22:03:00 <ais523> the repo's up publically at git://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal-trial.git now
22:03:17 <ais523> ESR's asked me to test it, but I can't because my laptop's having issues
22:03:31 <ais523> so I'd like someone else to try to check it out and build it
22:03:38 * Sgeo attempts to grasp what the arrow represents
22:04:00 <Sgeo> If you are at the tip of an arrow of one color, you're at the tip of the other arrow of that color
22:04:05 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, if something goes off the edge at an arrow, it comes out at the corresponding location on the matching arrow.
22:04:24 <Sgeo> Phantom_Hoover, where is that explained?
22:04:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, it isn't.
22:04:42 <Sgeo> ...
22:04:55 <Sgeo> That's remarkably unhelpful of Wikipedia
22:04:59 <Phantom_Hoover> The article is from a fancy topological perspective.
22:05:24 <Phantom_Hoover> It's the _correct_ definition, but obscure.
22:05:55 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, checked it out.
22:06:18 <ais523> try to build it using whatever technique you'd normally use to build arbitrary Linux programs
22:06:26 <ais523> also, try "make distcheck"
22:07:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Well, I needed to chmod configure, but that's incidental.
22:07:30 <ais523> I'll make sure I mention that
22:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> "make[1]: *** No rule to make target `src/atari.bin', needed by `atari.o'. Stop.
22:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/phantomhoover/Programs/intercal-trial'
22:08:13 <Phantom_Hoover> make: *** [all] Error 2"
22:09:28 <ais523> ok, thanks
22:09:36 <ais523> looks like there are some problems
22:10:09 <ais523> is the file "atari.bin" anywhere in the repo?
22:10:55 <ais523> hmm, apparently not (I'm browsing it online)
22:11:04 <Phantom_Hoover> No, it is not.
22:11:36 * oerjan wonders why you would want to generate an atari.o
22:12:08 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, well, INTERCAL has Atari connections...
22:12:23 <oerjan> hm
22:12:55 <Phantom_Hoover> FWIW, 'find . -iname "*atari*"' comes up with nothing.
22:13:35 <Sgeo> Obviously, you have the code for the ET game in the same directory by accident
22:13:48 <ais523> yep, I see, he deleted it by mistake
22:14:06 <ais523> oerjan: it's for the Atari character set
22:14:11 <ais523> used by INTERCAL
22:14:13 <oerjan> ah
22:14:35 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: if you're still interested in trying to help, there are copies of the .bin files in the tarball on c.intercal.org.uk
22:14:48 <ais523> does it build if they're restored?
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22:15:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Trying...
22:17:07 <Phantom_Hoover> You've lost *all* of the bin files, by the looks of it.
22:17:52 <ais523> yep
22:18:03 <ais523> it seems ESR just deleted *.bin without checking for source vs. derived
22:18:09 <ais523> but they should all be there
22:18:11 <Phantom_Hoover> Ugh
22:18:21 <Phantom_Hoover> They're all in the ick tarball, yes.
22:19:35 <ais523> is it building now?
22:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Yep, it looks to have worked.
22:21:45 <ais523> does make distcheck complain, or give a bunch of tarballs?
22:22:25 <pikhq> God dammit Japan, why why why?
22:22:37 <pikhq> Their municipal power is 100v, 50Hz or 60Hz.
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22:22:44 <pikhq> *How does this make any sense*?
22:23:17 <ais523> pikhq: so you can play either UK or US games
22:23:30 <Phantom_Hoover> make: *** No rule to make target `doc/ick.txt', needed by `distdir'. Stop.
22:23:37 <pikhq> ais523: TV is all NTSC-J.
22:23:49 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: hmm
22:23:57 <ais523> is there a makefile in doc itself?
22:24:03 <pikhq> (a variant of NTSC with a different black level)
22:24:07 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
22:24:21 <ais523> try make doc[tabcomplete]
22:24:22 <Phantom_Hoover> There is in the ick tree, though.
22:24:46 <Phantom_Hoover> Make doc.dvi etc.
22:24:53 <ais523> hmm, but not .txt?
22:25:08 <Phantom_Hoover> No.
22:25:51 <ais523> hmm
22:26:02 <ais523> I wonder if ick.txt is generated at all?
22:26:29 <ais523> how does doc/ick.txi compare to doc/ick.txt in the c.intercal.org.uk tarball?
22:26:33 <Phantom_Hoover> It's preëxistent in the ick tree.
22:26:40 <ais523> ah, intereting
22:26:48 <ais523> how does doc/ick.txi compare to doc/ick.txt, then?
22:26:53 <Phantom_Hoover> But not at all in intercal-trial
22:27:02 <ais523> yep, ESR deleted it
22:27:07 <ais523> I'm wondering if it's generated or not
22:27:12 <ais523> and if it is, why the makefile doesn't generate it
22:27:31 <Phantom_Hoover> They're completely different, FWIW
22:27:45 <ais523> ok, thanks
22:27:46 <Phantom_Hoover> And I haven't done anything in the ick tree.
22:27:51 <ais523> yep, that's fine
22:28:05 <ais523> ick.txi doesn't contain any of the sentences in ick.txt?
22:28:17 <Phantom_Hoover> It might...
22:28:34 <ais523> meh, pastebin ick.txt (I don't have an untar here) and I'll compare it to the ick.txi in the repo
22:29:35 <Phantom_Hoover> They look to have the same content, actually.
22:29:41 <Phantom_Hoover> Sorry about that.
22:29:46 <ais523> hmm, I thought so
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22:29:57 <ais523> looks like a build system bug
22:30:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Why'd ESR nuke ick.txt?
22:30:33 <ais523> he's trying to delete all generated files
22:30:39 <ais523> because I used to version them all, by mistake
22:30:47 <ais523> and it's bizzare that the makefile doesn't have a rule to build it
22:30:54 * ais523 reads the makefile
22:31:07 <Phantom_Hoover> So was the Knuth thing true?
22:31:26 <ais523> oh, it's in doc/Makefile
22:31:29 <ais523> and yes, it was
22:31:33 <Sgeo> Knuth thng?
22:31:35 <Phantom_Hoover> O.o
22:31:40 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: what if you cd to doc and run "make ick.txt"
22:31:56 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, in ick or intercal-...?
22:32:03 <ais523> in intercal-trial
22:32:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, it works.
22:32:41 <Sgeo> What's ick.txt?
22:32:41 * Phantom_Hoover wonders why that was
22:32:46 <ais523> does make distcheck work now?
22:32:48 <ais523> Sgeo: manual
22:33:06 <Phantom_Hoover> It's making tarballs, yes.
22:33:12 <Sgeo> Then what's ESR? Not the person...
22:33:29 <ais523> Sgeo: yes, the person
22:33:34 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, the Knuth thing is that ESR said that Knuth wanted him to make a new version of intercal.
22:33:41 <ais523> ESR and I are doing a joint project at Knuth's request
22:33:50 <Sgeo> o.O
22:33:53 <Phantom_Hoover> I have 3 archives ready for distribution, now.
22:34:00 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, why is Knuth so interested?
22:34:18 <ais523> who can say?
22:34:18 <Sgeo> INTERCAL will be the new Smalltalk.. erm, the new Java?
22:34:23 <ais523> the new MMIX!
22:34:32 <ais523> (that's just a guess; I haven't a clue behind his motivation)
22:35:05 <Phantom_Hoover> MYSTERIOU
22:35:10 <Phantom_Hoover> s/$/S/
22:40:16 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, so what changes are being made?
22:40:34 <ais523> mostly reconstructing the history into a sane repo
22:40:39 <ais523> then just merging my branch and his branch
22:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Why would Knuth be interested in this?
22:41:56 <coppro> he may find it amusing
22:42:08 <Phantom_Hoover> I mean, if you were making interesting changes, then maybe, but boring bookkeeping?
22:42:50 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: he just wants a new version
22:43:02 <ais523> I don't think he much cares about the process used to reach one
22:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> Does he want to make the ultimate nerd joke in the numbering?
22:43:21 <ais523> that's what you recruit /other/ internet celebrities for
22:43:31 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: such as version numbers going from right to left?
22:43:40 <Phantom_Hoover> PERHAPS
22:44:22 <Phantom_Hoover> What would the ultimate nerd joke be?
22:46:39 <tombom> there are 10 kinds of people: those who understand binary, those who don't, and those who can tell just by looking at a number that it's base 3
22:46:45 <tombom> ok that wasn't a joke
22:46:53 <tombom> but i'm sure there's some humor potential there.
22:48:05 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: SCO
22:48:14 <Phantom_Hoover> SCO?
22:48:26 <Phantom_Hoover> Oh, the Linux suey people/
22:48:49 * Phantom_Hoover → sleep
22:51:03 <pikhq> ... Dear God the US is cruel on its treatment of flights.
22:51:30 <pikhq> So, if you are not from a country with a visa waiver program, if you take a flight that for any reason lands in the US, you need a visa.
22:51:44 <pikhq> Yes, this includes fueling stops.
22:52:10 <pikhq> If you leave the plane, you need to go through customs.
22:52:33 <pikhq> Just... How does that make any sense at all?
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22:58:25 <tombom> turrists
22:59:39 <pikhq> Sitting in the plane while they put fuel in it requires a visa.
23:00:04 <tombom> the turrists are resourceful
23:01:25 <pikhq> Apparently not resourceful enough to go to Canada and walk across the border.
23:02:24 <coppro> pikhq: they also want personal info of anyone flying over the US
23:04:02 <pikhq> coppro: *groan*
23:04:25 <ais523> pikhq: isn't that border really well guarded nowadays?
23:04:41 <ais523> canadian airports are hilarious, they have two sections, "flights to the US" and "flights to everywhere else"
23:04:54 <ais523> the first has much crazier security
23:05:53 <pikhq> ais523: No, the Canadian border is completely unguarded.
23:06:02 <ais523> hmm, strange
23:07:07 <pikhq> Ah, not completely unguarded.
23:07:31 <pikhq> There's sensors scattered on road & trails to note if some *thing* crosses.
23:07:46 <pikhq> But there's nobody checking a lot of it, for obvious reasons.
23:12:13 <pikhq> The US-Russia border is *completely* unguarded.
23:12:22 <pikhq> But you'd be bloody insane for crossing it.
23:12:25 <ais523> isn't it entirely water?
23:12:30 <ais523> and ice?
23:12:38 <ais523> (and it has been crossed, in a vehicle designed for the purpose)
23:12:55 <pikhq> No ice. Just a very small patch of shallow water between two islands, one of which is inhabited.
23:13:11 <pikhq> (the entire Bering Strait is very shallow)
23:14:04 <pikhq> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diomede_Islands_Bering_Sea_Jul_2006.jpg The US-Russia border.
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23:20:29 <pikhq> *sigh* There is absolutely no sense at all in the US-Canada border being at all guarded.
23:20:39 <pikhq> Why can't it just be "Welcome to Canada"?
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23:40:14 <Sgeo> "It is easy to figure out /my/ speed, since I walk at a constant speed," Recordis said proudly.
23:44:35 <malorie> "I understand how the engines work now. It came to me in a dream. The engines don't move the ship _at_ _all_. The ship stays where it is and the engines move the universe around it." -- Cubert Farnsworth
23:45:25 <pikhq> Mmm, Futurama.
23:46:02 <Sgeo> No love for Calculus the Easy Way?
23:46:58 <pikhq> Oddly, I own it but have not read it.
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23:54:23 <Sgeo> "Ys, we know what you mean," the professor said quickly, before Recordis had a chance to say that they could write the same rule for five functions added together.
23:54:27 <coppro> pikhq: indeed
23:54:33 <Sgeo> *Yes
23:55:39 <pikhq> coppro: Of course, I imagine Canada gets a lot of its immigration policy fed to it by the US, and the US's immigration policy is governed by racists and idiots.
23:56:38 <coppro> pikhq: as far as the border, yes
23:57:04 <pikhq> Well, yeah.
23:57:08 <coppro> our immigration approach is not a major point of US influence though
23:57:21 <pikhq> Things like "actually moving to Canada" are at least san*er* than the US.
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23:57:43 <coppro> the Boundary Commission is a joint organization
23:57:46 <pikhq> (namely, it is actually possible to do so!)
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